5001|4953|2004-08-11 12:36:44|Michael Casling|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|I have purchased goods in the US using a cheque from a Canadian bank. I write " pay $30- to John Smith in US dollars " works like a charm. The exchange rate used may not be as good as you can get but there is no hassle. This is normal business practice. There are many millions of dollars worth of goods purchased daily going either direction. Sometimes it is done with a bank draft. You go to the bank and say I want a cheque payable to John Smith for $30- in the currency you want. This will incure a small charge for the bank draft but the exchange rate may be better. You can go to your bank in England and do this for a purchase in Canada. If the product is made in the US or Canada it should have no duty attached when it crosses the border. I can sell my 1941 Ford tractor to someone in Kansas and ship it from Canada with no duty because it is easy to prove it was made in the US or Canada. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: knutfg To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?) Hi, your points are also taken! My posting seems to have given the impression that my main concern was loosing the money, while I had in mind that if I sent off a US check that could not be cashed, this would also be a hassle in the other end and would delay the arrival of the book to my address. Anyway, I have found all that I need from the Files section in combination with the kind answers received from some og you and I am looking forward to reading the book when it arrives. Since the questions regarding buying the book are popping up repeatedly, I was probably not alone sitting with some question marks and I expect the book to be good enough that it should be easy to get. Thanks to all of you for the help. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > Well, I have found the order information in the files section and I > > have also seen other replies to my query saying that the $ amounts > > are CAN if ordered in Canada and actually USD if ordered from > > anywhere outside of Canada. Fair enough, but far from obvious when > > nothing is said about it. > > > > The question I also raised about sending a personal check drawn on > a > > US bank has not been touched yet. Can such a check be cashed in > > Canada? In other words, can I pay this way, or does it have to be > > done in a different way???? I do not live in Canada (Miami, FL) and > > I have no experience in this regard. Even if we only talk about 23 > > USD, I would still not like to just create a lot of hassle for > Brent > > or for myself. Has anyone in the US bought the book? How was the > > practical procedure? I have the rates, address and all that, but > > would like to know for a fact that when I send the money I will > also > > receive the book. > > > > I repeat my tip about PDF format and downloadable book version paid > > by credit card or PayPal. > > > Ok - point taken - it's not exactly obvious, but bear in mind that > this is a peer-to-peer self-help group, not a marketing operation > (although sometimes one does wonder .... !). I would suggest that > anyone joining this group and finding themselves interested enough to > buy either the book or plans (or both), could do a lot worse than > work their way through the Files and Photographs sections, and then > through the archives of past posts as well. That's a lot of work, > but there are several files containing past posts which should > hopefully make the process less painful. > There are very few topics which haven't been covered before, and one > or two - like how to get plans etc. - keep popping up with some > regularity. Maybe there's a case for creating an FAQ's section as > well (?) - but the Moderator (Alex) is busy bashing steel right now - > and a fella's gotta get his priorities right !! > > On the subject of how to actually pay for Brent's book. There may be > a need for a change of mind-set here. Brent is my kinda guy, and has > something of a non-commercial approach to life. Hence his book is > self-produced/self-published. This way he keeps the prices of his > book and his plans to a minimum, doesn't rip-off his 'customers' > (more like friends, really), and doesn't line someone else's pockets > by the fruits of his own labours. > > To buy his book from the UK was a pain in the butt, as international > payment methods charge big commissions. Eventually I bought paper > currency and stuffed it into an envelope. I may even have paid in > $CAN in error - I can't remember now - I do remember adding a couple > of bills for the postage (which I guessed, 'cause I'd forgotten the > amount). The book arrived pretty damned quick, despite Brent being at > sea at the time. BS's father had enclosed a very nice personal note > of thanks with the book. > > So - my suggestion (for anyone) is to think "fair-dealing, honesty > and integrity" when dealing with Brent, rather than exercising the > more usual need for guard and caution that most of us have become > used to in our everyday commercial transactions. > > I guarantee you'll find the book to be the best investment you've > ever made in your life, and will save you many more times your > outlay. It's one of the very few books in my library I won't lend - > 'cause a boomerang it ain't. > > Best wishes > > Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5002|5002|2004-08-11 14:52:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Ordering Brent Swain's book|A postal money order can be cashed anywhere can't it? In Canada they can be bought at the post office and being prepaid & guarnateed by Canada post are redeemabel for cash at financial institutions. Same in the states I'd imagine... ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5003|5003|2004-08-11 15:00:14|jfpacuas|Outboard on 26 BS|HI Folks, Anyone out there considered using an outboard on the BS 26? For several reasons I am contemplating the idea. 1)my plans for my next boat don't include extensive motoring, 2) I will be leaving the boat unattended and in the water for long periods of time so the fewer holes in the hull, the better, (my last boat was riddled with throughull and though I had no problems, it was quite excessive) 3) additional stowage would be dandy, 4) I think I could drop the pilothouse sole (and thus, the pilothouse roof)and have a sleeker, lower profile pilothouse, 4)outboard combined with bilgekeels would be a great beachable, trailerable coastal cruiser, etc..... I've noticed some fairly heavy displacement production cruisers out there with outboards. I'm guessing I would have to compensate for the loss of ballast. Anyone have any ideas on this? Cheers paul| 5004|4984|2004-08-11 16:40:44|woodcraftssuch|Re: Moving Lead???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > Do you know the difference between San Francisco and Seattle? > Seattle has Ferry terminals and San Francisco has terminal Ferries. I seem to remember a SF contest to come up with a name and slogan for their new ferry service, an honorable mention was "Hi, I'm Bruce the ferry, ride me to Sausalito".| 5005|4984|2004-08-11 16:57:55|fmichael graham|Re: Moving Lead???|Rowland: I talked to a buddy who has a flat deck in Surrey. He will bring his e-mail address in for me tomorrow. If this works for you, I'll hook you up with him to discuss the details. The chainsaw idea suggested in an earlier post sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Regards, Mike kingsknight4life wrote: Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is an easy and cheap way to move it? Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton truck? Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5006|5003|2004-08-11 17:48:43|ben_azo|Re: Outboard on 26 BS|Hi Paul, your idea sure is worth considering , why not ? especialy sinds you do not plan to use the engine regularly. Just look for an engine with pushing power , the lower the rpm and the bigger the prop the more satisfied you will be . An old British SeaGull would take you a long way Where did you found your info or the presentation design of the BS 26 , please direct me to it . Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > HI Folks, > > Anyone out there considered using an outboard on the BS 26? > > For several reasons I am contemplating the idea. 1)my plans for my > next boat don't include extensive motoring, 2) I will be leaving the > boat unattended and in the water for long periods of time so the > fewer holes in the hull, the better, (my last boat was riddled with > throughull and though I had no problems, it was quite excessive) 3) > additional stowage would be dandy, 4) I think I could drop the > pilothouse sole (and thus, the pilothouse roof)and have a sleeker, > lower profile pilothouse, 4)outboard combined with bilgekeels would > be a great beachable, trailerable coastal cruiser, etc..... > > I've noticed some fairly heavy displacement production cruisers out > there with outboards. > > I'm guessing I would have to compensate for the loss of ballast. > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > Cheers > > paul | 5007|5002|2004-08-11 19:11:27|brentswain38|Re: Ordering Brent Swain's book|A Canadian postal money order can be cashed anywhere in Canada . A US postal money order can only be easily cashed in the US unless it's an international money order. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > A postal money order can be cashed anywhere can't it? > In Canada they can be bought at the post office and > being prepaid & guarnateed by Canada post are > redeemabel for cash at financial institutions. > > Same in the states I'd imagine... > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5008|5002|2004-08-11 19:21:06|knutfg|Re: Ordering Brent Swain's book|So, it is may be not so straight forward after all?? The devil sticks in the details I have been told and experienced myself a few times. I have now mailed a US personal check with 23 USD and according to received information that is supposed to work fine?? Best regards Knut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A Canadian postal money order can be cashed anywhere in Canada . A US > postal money order can only be easily cashed in the US unless it's an > international money order. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > A postal money order can be cashed anywhere can't it? > > In Canada they can be bought at the post office and > > being prepaid & guarnateed by Canada post are > > redeemabel for cash at financial institutions. > > > > Same in the states I'd imagine... > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _ > > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5009|5009|2004-08-11 19:28:42|knutfg|Reefing of the jib|I have a 120% jib that I would like to be able to reef. I have installed myself and used slab reefing for the mainsail on a different boat, but for the jib, I have previously either used a roller reefing or simply changed the jib for a smaller one. Now I would like to start out by reefing a couple of steps, before going to a smaller jib. This way I can reduce the work involved and get two steps of reduction before changing to a third step in form of a smaller and stronger fabric sail. Can anyone direct me to information on how to moodify an existing jib for some sort of slab reefing, or may be provide the details on the forum? Help will be much appreciated. These days internet search on the subject only comes up with roller reefing or sail change. Knut| 5010|5003|2004-08-11 21:04:02|blueiceicle|Re: Outboard on 26 BS|I too have been thinking about going with a outboard on the bs 26. the one major downfall i can readily see however is the possibility of theft. I guess one has to weight the good with the bad more stowage=stolen motor. I think ill might have think of a good solid way to mount my outboard. Jesse| 5011|4953|2004-08-11 23:36:06|clay_bee|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|I recently ordered Brent's book, and it is well worth the cost. The rates were 20.00 for the book plus 5.00 S&H. It is quite easy to get a US postal money order at the Post Office, and it makes the transaction a bit quicker, I think. Just make sure your post office gives you the 'pink' international money order. Clay --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD (in > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making it > more accessible. | 5012|5009|2004-08-12 00:22:18|pipthetroll69|Re: Reefing of the jib|I have a 140 on my boat that reefs down to a 120. There are extra eyes at the leech and luff, and its reinforced in a line between the two eyes. There are also eyes along the reinforced part, so you can tie up the loose foot of the sail. You lower the jib a little, hook down the reef point, and retie the jib sheets to the other reef line, and roll up whats left. All in all its a pain in the ass, and the sail shapes and sails horribly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > I have a 120% jib that I would like to be able to reef. I have > installed myself and used slab reefing for the mainsail on a > different boat, but for the jib, I have previously either used a > roller reefing or simply changed the jib for a smaller one. > > Now I would like to start out by reefing a couple of steps, before > going to a smaller jib. This way I can reduce the work involved and > get two steps of reduction before changing to a third step in form > of a smaller and stronger fabric sail. > > Can anyone direct me to information on how to moodify an existing > jib for some sort of slab reefing, or may be provide the details on > the forum? > > Help will be much appreciated. These days internet search on the > subject only comes up with roller reefing or sail change. > > Knut | 5013|5009|2004-08-12 00:45:44|Michael Casling|Re: Reefing of the jib|I have a 130 and a 110 and they both reef and I like them. I do not usually reef them but it is nice to be able to. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: pipthetroll69 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Reefing of the jib I have a 140 on my boat that reefs down to a 120. There are extra eyes at the leech and luff, and its reinforced in a line between the two eyes. There are also eyes along the reinforced part, so you can tie up the loose foot of the sail. You lower the jib a little, hook down the reef point, and retie the jib sheets to the other reef line, and roll up whats left. All in all its a pain in the ass, and the sail shapes and sails horribly. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > I have a 120% jib that I would like to be able to reef. I have > installed myself and used slab reefing for the mainsail on a > different boat, but for the jib, I have previously either used a > roller reefing or simply changed the jib for a smaller one. > > Now I would like to start out by reefing a couple of steps, before > going to a smaller jib. This way I can reduce the work involved and > get two steps of reduction before changing to a third step in form > of a smaller and stronger fabric sail. > > Can anyone direct me to information on how to moodify an existing > jib for some sort of slab reefing, or may be provide the details on > the forum? > > Help will be much appreciated. These days internet search on the > subject only comes up with roller reefing or sail change. > > Knut To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5014|5014|2004-08-12 06:00:24|James Douglas|Older pre-owned steel boats|You know to me this group is as much about pioneering spirit as it is orgami construction. It's about empowering ones self to conceptualize solutions in steel and other materials to attain a given practical, even, artistic effect. To me, who's spent his life as an accountant, it's about empowerment over something I've never really understood, never mind having the opportunity to get my hands into...that is metal fabrication....and I'm sure that there are several other little known black arts which have much valued applications to master as well!! So, the above stated and I hope accepted, I have a chance perhaps to acquire a steel sailboat built the traditional way a way back in 1982, i.e. not Orgami. And, no she isn't a "Foulks" as Brent would say; nor is she a "Robarts", as I would call that prolific fellow. But she definitely requires some of that pioneering/artisan influence that this group exudes so well to transform her into a liveaboard capable residence for a work a day chap like myself. Given her short comings (below) I am wondering just how big a deal would it be to correct these defects/shortcomings. 33 feet LOA, nice displacement @ 17,500 Lbs., has dodger but no pilot house, apparently poffered for sale cheap as a blue water boat but...has no self steering,...no anchor windlass,...no steel life line railings, does have the standard life lines as may be found on the normal production fiberglass boat but I like the security of stuff that doesn't move like welded steel railings! plus it doesn't have a barby. 33 feet is a nice size for my livaboard intentions, big enough for my four kids to come over and beat me up for the weekend, clean me out of food and be gone by Sunday night back to their mom. Boat's been hauled, painted and new zincs put in place. Subject to a survey, I have no doubts about the hull. Fin keeler, GRRRR; but has zodiak! Re: liveaboard: no hot water; no pressure water; no shower; cold water only at 50 gallon capaciry with no water maker; no holding tank installed for the head. For the next 3 t 5 years while I pay her off, I probably will be tied up at a dock most of the time...got to get to and from work like everyone else Hull's been foamed, with a wood panelled interior in place. I would prefer using my own onboard facilities, i.e. for toilet, shower and hot water: this dictates that I would have to upgrade the boat's systems. So how big a deal is this? Also, I will have engage on welding on the deck to install....a windlass, self steerig, achor chocks, hand and life railings, dorade boxes, even a pilot house for inside steering, given that the boat has been foamed how big a deal is this and what of the jeopardy of a fire?? Is this managable??| 5015|5003|2004-08-12 07:46:22|Bill Jaine|Re: Outboard on 26 BS|We have a 32 foot boat with an unreliable inboard so have an outboard on the back as a backup and have used it for hundreds of miles. It�s an old 9.9. Yamaha 2 stroke, just great, 2 services in 20 years. Points to consider are, Get an electric start, it�s hard to reach down to pull start it. Get one with an alternator to charge house batteries, Long shaft is better since in rough water the prop may clear the water, Great for going forward, pushes our 13,000lb boat at hull speed, but absolutely useless to stop the boat Better to have tank on board since filling up in bad weather becomes an issue Have remote controls stopping at dock when trying to reach down to put it in reverse is not fun You may need an outboard bracket with an extra long lift Most outboards are built for speed so look for one with the best torque The main point to remember is that we always use the motor 10 times more that we thought we would so make it easy to use. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: ben_azo [mailto:ben_azo@...] Sent: 11-Aug-04 5:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS Hi Paul, your idea sure is worth considering , why not ? especialy sinds you do not plan to use the engine regularly. Just look for an engine with pushing power , the lower the rpm and the bigger the prop the more satisfied you will be . An old British SeaGull would take you a long way Where did you found your info or the presentation design of the BS 26 , please direct me to it . Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > HI Folks, > > Anyone out there considered using an outboard on the BS 26? > > For several reasons I am contemplating the idea. 1)my plans for my > next boat don't include extensive motoring, 2) I will be leaving the > boat unattended and in the water for long periods of time so the > fewer holes in the hull, the better, (my last boat was riddled with > throughull and though I had no problems, it was quite excessive) 3) > additional stowage would be dandy, 4) I think I could drop the > pilothouse sole (and thus, the pilothouse roof)and have a sleeker, > lower profile pilothouse, 4)outboard combined with bilgekeels would > be a great beachable, trailerable coastal cruiser, etc..... > > I've noticed some fairly heavy displacement production cruisers out > there with outboards. > > I'm guessing I would have to compensate for the loss of ballast. > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > Cheers > > paul To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ik08eg/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/ D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092347325/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" HYPERLINK "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_06080 4.jpg" HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=group s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=734317790" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro up/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"ori gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5016|5003|2004-08-12 11:28:57|Paul Cotter|Re: Outboard on 26 BS|Thanks for the info Bill. I'm thinking of going all out and buying one of those Yamaha high thrust jobs (nearly 3:1 gear ratio). I believe their 4 stroke high thrust has all the features you suggest and may be a little better in reverse. I was wondering about the logistics of docking with an outboard. Once again, we are hampered by the number of limbs! Is your bracket an off-the-shelf variety or custom? Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Bill Jaine [mailto:anacapa@...] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:43 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS We have a 32 foot boat with an unreliable inboard so have an outboard on the back as a backup and have used it for hundreds of miles. It’s an old 9.9. Yamaha 2 stroke, just great, 2 services in 20 years. Points to consider are, Get an electric start, it’s hard to reach down to pull start it. Get one with an alternator to charge house batteries, Long shaft is better since in rough water the prop may clear the water, Great for going forward, pushes our 13,000lb boat at hull speed, but absolutely useless to stop the boat Better to have tank on board since filling up in bad weather becomes an issue Have remote controls stopping at dock when trying to reach down to put it in reverse is not fun You may need an outboard bracket with an extra long lift Most outboards are built for speed so look for one with the best torque The main point to remember is that we always use the motor 10 times more that we thought we would so make it easy to use. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: ben_azo [mailto:ben_azo@...] Sent: 11-Aug-04 5:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS Hi Paul, your idea sure is worth considering , why not ? especialy sinds you do not plan to use the engine regularly. Just look for an engine with pushing power , the lower the rpm and the bigger the prop the more satisfied you will be . An old British SeaGull would take you a long way Where did you found your info or the presentation design of the BS 26 , please direct me to it . Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > HI Folks, > > Anyone out there considered using an outboard on the BS 26? > > For several reasons I am contemplating the idea. 1)my plans for my > next boat don't include extensive motoring, 2) I will be leaving the > boat unattended and in the water for long periods of time so the > fewer holes in the hull, the better, (my last boat was riddled with > throughull and though I had no problems, it was quite excessive) 3) > additional stowage would be dandy, 4) I think I could drop the > pilothouse sole (and thus, the pilothouse roof)and have a sleeker, > lower profile pilothouse, 4)outboard combined with bilgekeels would > be a great beachable, trailerable coastal cruiser, etc..... > > I've noticed some fairly heavy displacement production cruisers out > there with outboards. > > I'm guessing I would have to compensate for the loss of ballast. > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > Cheers > > paul To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5017|5003|2004-08-12 11:38:10|Paul Cotter|Re: Outboard on 26 BS|Stealing stuff stinks! Because I would not be using the boat all the time, I think I would just take the outboard off when I am not there. I could bring it home. Pain in the butt? Probably, but I don't mind those kind of sacrifices...better than landlubbing, I suppose. As for the other questions concerning the BS26, I have had a few correspondences with folks on this site, with Brent, and I've scooped out the Origami book on many occasions. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: blueiceicle [mailto:tunagouda@...] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:03 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS I too have been thinking about going with a outboard on the bs 26. the one major downfall i can readily see however is the possibility of theft. I guess one has to weight the good with the bad more stowage=stolen motor. I think ill might have think of a good solid way to mount my outboard. Jesse To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5019|5014|2004-08-12 12:16:06|Gordon Schnell|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|The boat sounds like a great reno project. My only comment is: DON'T WELD A FOAMED HULL. It will burn. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5020|5003|2004-08-12 13:47:27|Bill Jaine|Re: Outboard on 26 BS|Docking is OK with remote controls, the bracket was an off the shelf one but is mounted quite low on the transom to the degree that when the outboard is lifted the skeg at the bottom is still in the water. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: Paul Cotter [mailto:paulcotter@...] Sent: 12-Aug-04 11:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS Thanks for the info Bill. I'm thinking of going all out and buying one of those Yamaha high thrust jobs (nearly 3:1 gear ratio). I believe their 4 stroke high thrust has all the features you suggest and may be a little better in reverse. I was wondering about the logistics of docking with an outboard. Once again, we are hampered by the number of limbs! Is your bracket an off-the-shelf variety or custom? Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: Bill Jaine [mailto:anacapa@...] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:43 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS We have a 32 foot boat with an unreliable inboard so have an outboard on the back as a backup and have used it for hundreds of miles. It�s an old 9.9. Yamaha 2 stroke, just great, 2 services in 20 years. Points to consider are, Get an electric start, it�s hard to reach down to pull start it. Get one with an alternator to charge house batteries, Long shaft is better since in rough water the prop may clear the water, Great for going forward, pushes our 13,000lb boat at hull speed, but absolutely useless to stop the boat Better to have tank on board since filling up in bad weather becomes an issue Have remote controls stopping at dock when trying to reach down to put it in reverse is not fun You may need an outboard bracket with an extra long lift Most outboards are built for speed so look for one with the best torque The main point to remember is that we always use the motor 10 times more that we thought we would so make it easy to use. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: ben_azo [mailto:ben_azo@...] Sent: 11-Aug-04 5:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Outboard on 26 BS Hi Paul, your idea sure is worth considering , why not ? especialy sinds you do not plan to use the engine regularly. Just look for an engine with pushing power , the lower the rpm and the bigger the prop the more satisfied you will be . An old British SeaGull would take you a long way Where did you found your info or the presentation design of the BS 26 , please direct me to it . Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > HI Folks, > > Anyone out there considered using an outboard on the BS 26? > > For several reasons I am contemplating the idea. 1)my plans for my > next boat don't include extensive motoring, 2) I will be leaving the > boat unattended and in the water for long periods of time so the > fewer holes in the hull, the better, (my last boat was riddled with > throughull and though I had no problems, it was quite excessive) 3) > additional stowage would be dandy, 4) I think I could drop the > pilothouse sole (and thus, the pilothouse roof)and have a sleeker, > lower profile pilothouse, 4)outboard combined with bilgekeels would > be a great beachable, trailerable coastal cruiser, etc..... > > I've noticed some fairly heavy displacement production cruisers out > there with outboards. > > I'm guessing I would have to compensate for the loss of ballast. > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > Cheers > > paul To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12955ou2o/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/ D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092410941/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002%20" HYPERLINK "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_06150 4.jpg" HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=group s/S=:HM/A=2196952/rand=397406582" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro up/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"ori gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 09/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5021|5014|2004-08-12 15:06:15|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|It is very managable James, will take you a bit of time though. I am I am sure others in this group will help you as specific issues come up. Good Luck James Douglas wrote: >.......... So how big a deal is this? > >Also, I will have engage on welding on the deck to install....a >windlass, self steerig, achor chocks, hand and life railings, dorade >boxes, even a pilot house for inside steering, given that the boat >has been foamed how big a deal is this and what of the jeopardy of a >fire?? Is this managable?? > > > | 5022|5014|2004-08-12 15:11:03|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|Only where you weld and not for long if it is polyurathane foam. Just keep a fire exstingisher at hand. Gordon Schnell wrote: >The boat sounds like a great reno project. >My only comment is: DON'T WELD A FOAMED HULL. >It will burn. > > > > | 5023|5023|2004-08-12 15:49:30|Alex|docking with outboard|We used outboards successfully on our old teak hulled 36 footer, not by choice but dictated by lack of money at the time for an inboard. I bought an aftermarket low-pitch prop for our Honda 7.5 hp longshaft outboard which allowed it to rev at normal amounts while moving the boat slowly through the water. The prop blades were wide and 'lobe"-like, similar to what you see on the Yamaha high thrust fourstrokes made for pushing loads at low speed. 7.5 hp wasn't my first choice, it's just what I had. I was thus very happily surprised at how well it propelled my craft from a standing start, and I think it was all due to the low-pitch propellor. I additionally hooked up a Suzuki longshaft 2 stroke 15 hp on another bracket, also with low-pitch aftermarket prop, and discovered that either motor could get the boat moving along just fine. After negative experiences trying to run back and control the engines while docking, I put remote controls on both engines, led into the pilot house, and additionally attached a control rod from the boat's rudder over to the Honda, allowing me to direct thrust bursts sideways with the rudder hard over. When you have no "way' on to get steerage from waterflow over the rudder, this ends up being a lifesaver. Docking was actually dead easy: I simply backed into where I was going, using the streerable motor to suck the stern over any direction I wanted and avoiding the "prop walk" that plagues any single-screw vessel backing up. When I was ready to stop I simply applied forward thrust to halt my progress and the effect was instant. Although it took a little longer initially to get the boat moving in reverse (outboards, with their tiny props are notoriously inneficient in this regard), it was a great feeling of security to be able to stop the boat's reverse motion with a flick of the twin throttle controls. Being able to direct the thrust sideways by being attached to the rudder allowed me to kick the stern over for near perfect dockings. I'm sure it didn't look very "nautically correct", but it was a logical solution for the resources at hand, and my landings were stress free! If I were attaching an outboard to a BS 26, I'd build in mounting socket on the aft deck for moveable davit (mini "crane") to make it easy to winch up and remove the outboard for storage without straining your back or dropping the motor in the water. A 4 stroke engine can weigh quite a lot, and that weight is awkward when trying to wrestle the machine off a bracket while standing in a dinghy with a swell lifting you up and down. There is also nothing preventing you from building a sliding bracket on the stern so you can get the outboard leg right up and out of the water with little effort. The reduction gears in modern pusher motors would be great, but if you couldn't afford a new one, you could still get out there with an aftermarket low pitch prop. Alex| 5024|5023|2004-08-12 16:33:26|Paul Cotter|Re: docking with outboard|I like the control rod idea…the perfect stern thruster. And yes, I agree that a removable crane would save multiple trips to the surgeon. Did you modify a lazarette or something to hold portable fuel tanks? I’ll start snooping around for some older high thrust outboards. Paul -----Original Message----- From: Alex [mailto:northcanoe@...] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:49 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] docking with outboard We used outboards successfully on our old teak hulled 36 footer, not by choice but dictated by lack of money at the time for an inboard. I bought an aftermarket low-pitch prop for our Honda 7.5 hp longshaft outboard which allowed it to rev at normal amounts while moving the boat slowly through the water. The prop blades were wide and 'lobe"-like, similar to what you see on the Yamaha high thrust fourstrokes made for pushing loads at low speed. 7.5 hp wasn't my first choice, it's just what I had. I was thus very happily surprised at how well it propelled my craft from a standing start, and I think it was all due to the low-pitch propellor. I additionally hooked up a Suzuki longshaft 2 stroke 15 hp on another bracket, also with low-pitch aftermarket prop, and discovered that either motor could get the boat moving along just fine. After negative experiences trying to run back and control the engines while docking, I put remote controls on both engines, led into the pilot house, and additionally attached a control rod from the boat's rudder over to the Honda, allowing me to direct thrust bursts sideways with the rudder hard over. When you have no "way' on to get steerage from waterflow over the rudder, this ends up being a lifesaver. Docking was actually dead easy: I simply backed into where I was going, using the streerable motor to suck the stern over any direction I wanted and avoiding the "prop walk" that plagues any single-screw vessel backing up. When I was ready to stop I simply applied forward thrust to halt my progress and the effect was instant. Although it took a little longer initially to get the boat moving in reverse (outboards, with their tiny props are notoriously inneficient in this regard), it was a great feeling of security to be able to stop the boat's reverse motion with a flick of the twin throttle controls. Being able to direct the thrust sideways by being attached to the rudder allowed me to kick the stern over for near perfect dockings. I'm sure it didn't look very "nautically correct", but it was a logical solution for the resources at hand, and my landings were stress free! If I were attaching an outboard to a BS 26, I'd build in mounting socket on the aft deck for moveable davit (mini "crane") to make it easy to winch up and remove the outboard for storage without straining your back or dropping the motor in the water. A 4 stroke engine can weigh quite a lot, and that weight is awkward when trying to wrestle the machine off a bracket while standing in a dinghy with a swell lifting you up and down. There is also nothing preventing you from building a sliding bracket on the stern so you can get the outboard leg right up and out of the water with little effort. The reduction gears in modern pusher motors would be great, but if you couldn't afford a new one, you could still get out there with an aftermarket low pitch prop. Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5025|5014|2004-08-12 16:49:29|James Douglas|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > The boat sounds like a great reno project. > My only comment is: DON'T WELD A FOAMED HULL. > It will burn. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] The possibility of a fire from welding is precisely what I'm afraid of! How can I make the sort of reno's mentioned without welding?? JD, North Vancouver.| 5026|5014|2004-08-12 18:10:43|fmichael graham|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|Where ever you plan to weld, you will need to; remove paint/foam/other flammable coverings before welding, & sand/prime/paint again, after. I renovated the interior of a boat while living aboard, for three years. Almost started talking to myself! Trust me, only work on one project at a time & don't try to move a "one bedroom apartment" volume of things in with you. As your projects progress, it's amazing how much room your growing inventory - of material, equipment & supplies - consumes. I think that there is a yahoo group for live-aboards. There could be interesting info. there, as well. Regards, Mike James Douglas wrote: You know to me this group is as much about pioneering spirit as it is orgami construction. It's about empowering ones self to conceptualize solutions in steel and other materials to attain a given practical, even, artistic effect. To me, who's spent his life as an accountant, it's about empowerment over something I've never really understood, never mind having the opportunity to get my hands into...that is metal fabrication....and I'm sure that there are several other little known black arts which have much valued applications to master as well!! So, the above stated and I hope accepted, I have a chance perhaps to acquire a steel sailboat built the traditional way a way back in 1982, i.e. not Orgami. And, no she isn't a "Foulks" as Brent would say; nor is she a "Robarts", as I would call that prolific fellow. But she definitely requires some of that pioneering/artisan influence that this group exudes so well to transform her into a liveaboard capable residence for a work a day chap like myself. Given her short comings (below) I am wondering just how big a deal would it be to correct these defects/shortcomings. 33 feet LOA, nice displacement @ 17,500 Lbs., has dodger but no pilot house, apparently poffered for sale cheap as a blue water boat but...has no self steering,...no anchor windlass,...no steel life line railings, does have the standard life lines as may be found on the normal production fiberglass boat but I like the security of stuff that doesn't move like welded steel railings! plus it doesn't have a barby. 33 feet is a nice size for my livaboard intentions, big enough for my four kids to come over and beat me up for the weekend, clean me out of food and be gone by Sunday night back to their mom. Boat's been hauled, painted and new zincs put in place. Subject to a survey, I have no doubts about the hull. Fin keeler, GRRRR; but has zodiak! Re: liveaboard: no hot water; no pressure water; no shower; cold water only at 50 gallon capaciry with no water maker; no holding tank installed for the head. For the next 3 t 5 years while I pay her off, I probably will be tied up at a dock most of the time...got to get to and from work like everyone else Hull's been foamed, with a wood panelled interior in place. I would prefer using my own onboard facilities, i.e. for toilet, shower and hot water: this dictates that I would have to upgrade the boat's systems. So how big a deal is this? Also, I will have engage on welding on the deck to install....a windlass, self steerig, achor chocks, hand and life railings, dorade boxes, even a pilot house for inside steering, given that the boat has been foamed how big a deal is this and what of the jeopardy of a fire?? Is this managable?? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5027|4953|2004-08-13 01:46:10|kingsknight4life|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > > > > Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file > entitled: "A- > > > > CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the > > > file. > > > > All will be revealed. Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" > wrote: > > > > > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is > > > given > > > > > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in > > USD > > > > (in > > > > > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I > would > > > > > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > > > > > > > > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > > > > > > > > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can > be > > > > > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > > > > > > > > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by > making > > > it > > > > > more accessible. In Brent Swain fashion I did this the easiest way possible. I sent him a 20 dollar bill in the mail. Wrapped in thick paper to avoid the nosey and greedy. lol I think $23 USD would cover it.| 5028|4984|2004-08-13 01:51:29|kingsknight4life|Re: Moving Lead???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > -I know it may sound silly..... > but rent a chainsaw and use it to cut up the lead into smaller > easier to handle partts and don't ferget to pickup what the saw left behind. > .... Lead is "soft" and cuts easily with a chainsaw,,,,, it may require cleaning but > ....... like leaded fuel .... it is a lubricant, although "thick" > Have fun John > > Will cutting the lead ruin the chainsaw? I think a sawzall 9sp?) might work too. Thanks for all the replies and offers, I'm still waiting to see if I can borrow a friends 1 ton. I may still take some of you guys up on the offers. Thanks Rowland| 5029|5014|2004-08-13 09:15:31|John|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|Hi James, I lived on a glass boat during do-it-myself renovations while working in Hong Kong. A few ideas poped up during the process, the biggest being 'don't unbolt the stanchions to refinish the deck during the rainy season'. Point number one, plan, plan, plan. You don't want to undo something because the next thing goes under or through it. This includes especially power, batteries, wiring, re-charging, wind gennies and solar panels. The wires and controlers for these go everywhere. Also included is all the plumbing and so on for fresh water and salt if you plan to bring it aboard for washing etc. Different sources will tell you how much fresh to bring per person per day out. Maybe you need more tankage. Or add or make a water maker ... and the power to drive it. I lived without a water heater as the club on shore had showers. Where will you sail later? In the tropics a solar heated shower works most places. In the Queen Charlots ... not a good idea. And ask yourself some tough questions about refrigeration, yes or no, how big, to make ice or not, and how to power it. Be sure that there is easy and comfortable access all around the boat's engine. Mostly you need to get at the filters and pumps, but if a wire comes loose from the starting motor ... can you get to that while at sea? To use your own head on your boat, in North American and European waters you will need a holding tank and a pump out point; maybe under the forepeak berth and out on the side deck. At sea and elsewhere, a valve allows you to flush directly through the bottom. That valve may have to be lockable or have a seal applied for some jurisdictions. Plan the stuctural work with the other stuff. Of course welding risks fire, but this risk is manageable. If you are dock side, you might be able to have a hose available for cooling after or fire quenching. When the weld is finished, it is leak free and sooo strong compared to bolts etc. And no gaskets, seals, dissimilar metals in the bolts etc. or just a little leak where something works free. For me, living aboard was a highlight of my life. Sailing the boat after I worked on her was even better! And when something went not as planned, I knew the insides of her in detail from stem to stern. Just avoid the pitfall of always buying that next best tool or piece of equipment and keeping it on board. One guy in the anchorage at HK had so much good stuff on board, he put her down 8" deeper than her max waterline. Lots of good luck. John in Toronto --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > The boat sounds like a great reno project. > > My only comment is: DON'T WELD A FOAMED HULL. > > It will burn. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > The possibility of a fire from welding is precisely what I'm afraid > of! How can I make the sort of reno's mentioned without welding?? > > JD, North Vancouver. | 5030|4984|2004-08-13 10:11:07|Paul Faulkner|Re: Moving Lead???|Dunno if it will ruin the chainsaw or not, but check out this web site by two women building a steel sailboat. Awesome site, with TONS of great information, a very small part of which is about how they cut up a large piece of lead for their ballast. I think they used a chainsaw and ran into some problems because the lead was reinforced with steel. In the end, they were successful. http://www.sandyscb.com/sail1.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Moving Lead??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > -I know it may sound silly..... > but rent a chainsaw and use it to cut up the lead into smaller > easier to handle partts and don't ferget to pickup what the saw left behind. > .... Lead is "soft" and cuts easily with a chainsaw,,,,, it may require cleaning but > ....... like leaded fuel .... it is a lubricant, although "thick" > Have fun John > > Will cutting the lead ruin the chainsaw? I think a sawzall 9sp?) might work too. Thanks for all the replies and offers, I'm still waiting to see if I can borrow a friends 1 ton. I may still take some of you guys up on the offers. Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5031|5031|2004-08-13 10:50:47|John Jones|Sawzall|the teeth will get all gummed up on a sawzall.... I know it sounds silly but the chainsaw will do the trick or try using an axe, it's very soft.| 5032|5032|2004-08-13 10:51:16|Phil S.|Gentle Delete Reminder|Fellow Board mates, Please when responding to a message or posting, delete the text from the previous message. Unless there is a specific point you are addressing, then keep that specific text. Otherwise it makes for very long messages. Regards Phil| 5033|4953|2004-08-13 12:52:09|pascalibook|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|I just followed Mr Brent Swain's instructions and mailed him 30 Euros via Prior Airmail on August 12th , I hope to receive the book soon and I hope : All will be revealed (..quote : Colin ) about all I allways wanted to know and learn about the 26BS --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > > > > > Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file > > entitled: "A- > > > > > CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the > > > > file. > > > > > All will be revealed. Colin > > In Brent Swain fashion I did this the easiest way possible. I sent > him a 20 dollar bill in the mail. Wrapped in thick paper to avoid the > nosey and greedy. lol I think $23 USD would cover it. | 5034|4953|2004-08-13 16:41:02|Brent Geery|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:46:09 -0000, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making it > more accessible. It won't fix your speed problem, but when I received my book, the first thing I did was scan it into my computer and created a PDF file. Makes it much more accessible to me, and allows things like word searches, adding electronic notes, ect. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 5035|4892|2004-08-13 17:17:44|brentswain38|Re: Materials list|The pieces cut from the bow end of the 40 ft plates become the add on pieces ahead of the cutout. The other large piece of 3/16th cut diagonally becomes the add on pieces aft of the cutout. The three 5x8 ft pieces of 3/16th become the transom, skeg and tanktop. The 8X 16 piece of 1/4 inch plate are for either the twin keels or the single keel.The total area is the same for either. Stringers are installed while the plate is flat on the ground, before pulling the hull together.One client installed his chock liners while the plate was flat on the ground. There are no frames other than the angles across the twin keels to take the load on them from the chine to the edge of the tanktop.These angles and the solid 2 1/2 inch shafts for the leading edges of the twin keels can be found much more cheaply in a scrapyard, but one should try a test weld on them to make sure that the welding rod that you are using is compatible, as shafts come from the scrapyard in a variety of steels. I had the full 40 ft materials list in my pocket this morning, but can't find it now, so will try to post it again asap. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > I often wonder if Brent has actually built a 40' hull.... kuz the materials list > would have been modified by now if he did. > @ pieces of 40X8' 3/16 steel and one piece of 12X8' 3/16 that should be > 22X8' 3/16 aand the stringers???? should be installed before the frames. > > > with such obvious little differences I'm kinda worried about the outcome of my > project , I really can't affrord to have tooo many mistakes. Feces > > How goes your projects? John | 5036|5014|2004-08-13 17:20:40|brentswain38|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|One guy I met in Tonga removed dented plate with a sawzall reciprocating saw, put wet rags around the weld area and kept them wet while welding. It worked well. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell > wrote: > > The boat sounds like a great reno project. > > My only comment is: DON'T WELD A FOAMED HULL. > > It will burn. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > The possibility of a fire from welding is precisely what I'm afraid > of! How can I make the sort of reno's mentioned without welding?? > > JD, North Vancouver. | 5037|5009|2004-08-13 17:26:05|brentswain38|Re: Reefing of the jib|It's a good idea to lay out your reef poits so that the sheet lead stays more or less in the same point when reefed. This can be laid out on your sail plan drawing by making sure the angle from the sheet lead is the same whether reefed or not. This means putting the clew reef point higher than the tack , higher with each reef. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I have a 130 and a 110 and they both reef and I like them. I do not usually reef them but it is nice to be able to. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: pipthetroll69 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Reefing of the jib > > > I have a 140 on my boat that reefs down to a 120. There are extra > eyes at the leech and luff, and its reinforced in a line between the > two eyes. There are also eyes along the reinforced part, so you can > tie up the loose foot of the sail. You lower the jib a little, hook > down the reef point, and retie the jib sheets to the other reef line, > and roll up whats left. All in all its a pain in the ass, and the > sail shapes and sails horribly. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > I have a 120% jib that I would like to be able to reef. I have > > installed myself and used slab reefing for the mainsail on a > > different boat, but for the jib, I have previously either used a > > roller reefing or simply changed the jib for a smaller one. > > > > Now I would like to start out by reefing a couple of steps, before > > going to a smaller jib. This way I can reduce the work involved > and > > get two steps of reduction before changing to a third step in form > > of a smaller and stronger fabric sail. > > > > Can anyone direct me to information on how to moodify an existing > > jib for some sort of slab reefing, or may be provide the details on > > the forum? > > > > Help will be much appreciated. These days internet search on the > > subject only comes up with roller reefing or sail change. > > > > Knut > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5038|3492|2004-08-13 21:58:16|bennettk2000|hull design|ok ok, where how or who do i need to talk to in order to figure an origami design for a double ender like a tahitiana, westsail etc. since it is pretty much symmetrical i would think easy to do. any ideas? leads? etc? thanks for your time| 5039|4892|2004-08-13 23:59:50|John Jones|Re: Materials list|-OH SUUUURRRE Tell me that NOW , after I've bought cut & welded the steel. Feces!! I'm now ready to join the two halves together. "Oh God I hope I did this right!" It's ALL GOOD so far but FECES HAPPENS. Uually at the wrong time. Well this is not explained in the book or any other place other than this so why not add a must read amendment so others don't have the same experience. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The pieces cut from the bow end of the 40 ft plates become the add on > pieces ahead of the cutout. The other large piece of 3/16th cut > diagonally becomes the add on pieces aft of the cutout. > The three 5x8 ft pieces of 3/16th become the transom, skeg and > tanktop. The 8X 16 piece of 1/4 inch plate are for either the twin > keels or the single keel.The total area is the same for either. > Stringers are installed while the plate is flat on the ground, > before pulling the hull together.One client installed his chock > liners while the plate was flat on the ground. There are no frames > other than the angles across the twin keels to take the load on them > from the chine to the edge of the tanktop.These angles and the solid > 2 1/2 inch shafts for the leading edges of the twin keels can be > found much more cheaply in a scrapyard, but one should try a test > weld on them to make sure that the welding rod that you are using is > compatible, as shafts come from the scrapyard in a variety of steels. > I had the full 40 ft materials list in my pocket this morning, but > can't find it now, so will try to post it again asap. > > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > wrote: > > I often wonder if Brent has actually built a 40' hull.... kuz the > materials list > > would have been modified by now if he did. > > @ pieces of 40X8' 3/16 steel and one piece of 12X8' 3/16 that > should be > > 22X8' 3/16 aand the stringers???? should be installed before the > frames. > > > > > > with such obvious little differences I'm kinda worried about the > outcome of my > > project , I really can't affrord to have tooo many mistakes. > Feces > > > > How goes your projects? John | 5040|5040|2004-08-14 04:14:44|Russyl|Insulating paint|Brent, how did your experiment with the glass beads in epoxy go? Did you use it in lieu of foam and can you recommend it?| 5041|4934|2004-08-14 12:40:18|Henri Naths|Re: Water Heater|Gary , That,s right, I forgot I knew that. You have to use a heat exchanger. Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 08 August, 2004 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater Henri, That is a bad idea. You would be constantly adding fresh oxygen to your cooling system and you would eat up you engine in no time. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > ps why could'nt a person run fresh water thru the cooling system for an additional source of hot water? > Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Cupp > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > Scott, > > It is very simple to Imagine a thirty inch or bigger stainless steel > drum that has a four inch Stainless steel exhaust pipe through the > center and on end open still. You then take a coil of large copper > tubing and place it over the center pipe with both ends of the coil > coming out of the open end. You then take the mixture of aluminum > and cement and pour it in to the drum but not down the exhaust pipe > so that it covers the coil around the pipe and fills the drum to the > edge. You then vibrte the cement mxture so the air bubbles will exit > the mixture. > > Now you place an end on the drum that has holes for the two ends of > the copper tubing and a large hole for the exhaust pipe. You flow > water through the pipe while the drum is hooked to the exhaust and it > heats the water very fast. You are only confined by the size of > the water heater by how long the exhaust has to be. If you wanted to > you could make a heater that ran the length of the keel the exhaust > would be cool when it came out of the end but the un-burnt > hydrocarbons might eventually clog the inner tube from being cooled > in such a long run. If you could have a chimney sweep type tool to > clean the pipe periodicly you could use a radiator type system to > heat the whole boat. With a holding tank you could run radiant heat > tubing like they use in homes under the decks. > > This would do very well in a boat that cruises in colder climates. I > am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. I have > wished for just an once of cold water to run in my shower in boats I > have sailed in down to South America. The cold water or supposed to > be cold water was nearly 95 degrees most of the time and you could > not use a swamp cooler because the humidity was always way to high to > cool anything. I want to try to rig some peltier coolers to some > cooper tubing with air blowing on the heat sinks to cool them. It > will give needed cold water on trips in the tropics. > > First before all these ideas I need to build an 100 foot boat to haul > all the things I designed for extended cruising. I want to have a > large battery storage capacity with wind generator and photovoltaic > cells. Add to that a generator drive system that can drive the boat > or turn the prop to create electricity when sailing and it needs > room. They have an electric toilet that works very well and turns > everything into ashes. With the cost of pump outs gone you just need > more power. I plan on having two spare water makers on hand just in > case and each one can make twenty gallons an hour. In most South > American ports that I might sail into you do not want to drink the > local water. You don't want to make water in port either because > sanitation along the shore is unheard of in most places. > > John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle > wrote: > > John, > > I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing > > your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any > > possibility of a diagram? > > Scott Carle > > > > > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > > > pipe heat that > > > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > > > with a mixture of > > > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > > > resistant cement. I > > > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > > > pounds of aluminum > > > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > > > stainless tube > > > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > > > id copper tube > > > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > > > with the cement > > > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > > > to release all of > > > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > > > tubing into a > > > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > > > > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > > > without running out > > > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > > > but it sure beat > > > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > > > boat. Sorry I > > > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > > > heater since most > > > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > > > without using > > > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > > > existing boat is > > > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > > > building the boat > > > new. > > > > > > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5042|4934|2004-08-14 13:03:29|Henri Naths|Re: Water Heater|water is 10 lbs per gallon, a small hot water heater/ heat exchanger couldn't weight more than 100 lbs. A catalistic (sp) converter would take care of the unburnt hydrocarbon and ad extra heat. Keep it all insulated and it should keep the exhaust system temp up to prevent condensing of the hydrocarbons. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: John Cupp To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 08 August, 2004 10:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater I built the water heater unit and it is now on a boat that is used all the time. For its size it does not weigh as much as some might think. A drum of antifreeze weighs in at over 480 lbs A drum of oil goes around 360 lbs. My heater weighs about 180 lbs wet. When I used this device on a Perkins without a turbo by the way it causes a build up of soot on the outlet end. I have been a mechanic for years and after you dismount mufflers from a caterpillar track dozer with a turbo it is packet with soot. The reason is that starting and acceleration causes this deposit to form and when the exhaust cools it is easier for it to cling to the walls of the heater. I will probably use a small car conversion diesel engine and the computer controlled engine with a turbo is less likely to leave soot deposits because every aspect of the engine is run from the computer. My system really works and it even uses less power than a tankless water on demand heater popular in bigger mega yachts. One could also shield the outer layer of the canister with insulation so all of the heat is absorbed by the copper cooling pipe. Yes I agree it is a very bad thing to run plain water through a drive motor for water heating. I test my antifreeze PH and many other tests on my Diesel pickup to stop electrolyses. I will run a keel cooler for my drive motor and maybe the generator also. They will be sealed systems. The Motorsailer is a perfect candidate for using my water heater. You can run the motor to gain extra speed and get the whole crew a shower at the same time. I designed it because it is a wasted source of heat that should be used. I also have several solar showers that I use when camping and it is another good way to heat water without using power but it is hard to fill those bladders and they don't hold enough waer to take a nice long shower. John Cupp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5043|4934|2004-08-14 14:48:30|John Jones|Re: Water Heater|--John Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is turned on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you are using as you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water storage tank or to be heating water when you don't need it. It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull fumes and you can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. John - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > water is 10 lbs per gallon, a small hot water heater/ heat exchanger couldn't weight more than 100 lbs. A catalistic (sp) converter would take care of the unburnt hydrocarbon and ad extra heat. Keep it all insulated and it should keep the exhaust system temp up to prevent condensing of the hydrocarbons. > Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Cupp > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 08 August, 2004 10:25 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > I built the water heater unit and it is now on a boat that is used > all the time. For its size it does not weigh as much as some might > think. A drum of antifreeze weighs in at over 480 lbs A drum of oil > goes around 360 lbs. My heater weighs about 180 lbs wet. When I > used this device on a Perkins without a turbo by the way it causes a > build up of soot on the outlet end. I have been a mechanic for > years and after you dismount mufflers from a caterpillar track dozer > with a turbo it is packet with soot. The reason is that starting and > acceleration causes this deposit to form and when the exhaust cools > it is easier for it to cling to the walls of the heater. > > I will probably use a small car conversion diesel engine and the > computer controlled engine with a turbo is less likely to leave soot > deposits because every aspect of the engine is run from the > computer. My system really works and it even uses less power than > a tankless water on demand heater popular in bigger mega yachts. > One could also shield the outer layer of the canister with insulation > so all of the heat is absorbed by the copper cooling pipe. > > Yes I agree it is a very bad thing to run plain water through a drive > motor for water heating. I test my antifreeze PH and many other > tests on my Diesel pickup to stop electrolyses. I will run a keel > cooler for my drive motor and maybe the generator also. They will > be sealed systems. The Motorsailer is a perfect candidate for using > my water heater. You can run the motor to gain extra speed and get > the whole crew a shower at the same time. I designed it because it > is a wasted source of heat that should be used. I also have several > solar showers that I use when camping and it is another good way to > heat water without using power but it is hard to fill those bladders > and they don't hold enough waer to take a nice long shower. > > John Cupp > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5044|5044|2004-08-14 15:45:26|knutfg|BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|My feeling is that steel is close to the perfect material for sailboats 36' and more since the weight of the material becomes less important for the larger designs. However, the 26' and may be also the 31' would probably benefit substantially from using aluminum in the sense that the capacity to carry supplies would be better. It should also allow relatively more weight in the keel and less in the hull and deck for the same total displacement, giving a boat with less heel for a given wind-load. I also have in mind that for a smaller hull, the difference in material cost for hull/deck between steel and aluminum cannot be too much. At the same time I would expect the second hand value of an aluminum yacht to be quite a bit better than for steel, thus quickle more than compensating the intial cost difference. I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around?| 5045|5045|2004-08-14 15:52:35|knutfg|Composting toilet for boats|In planning for a possible cruising sailboat I certainly don't like the cost, installation complexity, operation and maintenance hassles and risks involved with normal marine toilets. There are currently more than one type of composting toilets designed for use in boats and the price and size has come down quite a bit. From cabin-use on land I have very good personal experience with such systems, but I have never used one in a boat. If properly designed, isntalled and operated I cannot see why they should not work equally well in a boat, but sometimes theory and real life is not the same. The question is therefore: Have anyone tried, considered, installed, used or heard about such toilets in boats? In particular actual boat experience would be very useful. I am very much looking forward to avoid having a holding tank full of sh... that is not always so easy to get rid of in a proper manner.| 5046|5044|2004-08-14 16:18:30|Paul Cotter|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Check out earlier posts on this subject. The discussions were hot, funny, aggressive, condescending, sometimes respectful, and most importantly, informative. Cheers -----Original Message----- From: knutfg [mailto:knutfg@...] Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 11:45 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum?? My feeling is that steel is close to the perfect material for sailboats 36' and more since the weight of the material becomes less important for the larger designs. However, the 26' and may be also the 31' would probably benefit substantially from using aluminum in the sense that the capacity to carry supplies would be better. It should also allow relatively more weight in the keel and less in the hull and deck for the same total displacement, giving a boat with less heel for a given wind-load. I also have in mind that for a smaller hull, the difference in material cost for hull/deck between steel and aluminum cannot be too much. At the same time I would expect the second hand value of an aluminum yacht to be quite a bit better than for steel, thus quickle more than compensating the intial cost difference. I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5047|4934|2004-08-14 16:27:07|Brent Geery|Re: Water Heater|On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" wrote: > --John > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is turned > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you are using as > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water storage tank or to > be heating water when you don't need it. > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull fumes and you > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > John The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar water heater. :) -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5048|5045|2004-08-14 17:11:13|David K McComber|Re: Composting toilet for boats|Hi. I too looked at these but decided I couldn't afford the space. In reading the literature for several composting toilets, I found that it takes a very large one to accommodate 2 people in continues use. They usually say that there designed to handle weekend cruisers with a possible 2 week vacation once a year. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: knutfg [mailto:knutfg@...] Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 3:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Composting toilet for boats In planning for a possible cruising sailboat I certainly don't like the cost, installation complexity, operation and maintenance hassles and risks involved with normal marine toilets. There are currently more than one type of composting toilets designed for use in boats and the price and size has come down quite a bit. From cabin-use on land I have very good personal experience with such systems, but I have never used one in a boat. If properly designed, isntalled and operated I cannot see why they should not work equally well in a boat, but sometimes theory and real life is not the same. The question is therefore: Have anyone tried, considered, installed, used or heard about such toilets in boats? In particular actual boat experience would be very useful. I am very much looking forward to avoid having a holding tank full of sh... that is not always so easy to get rid of in a proper manner. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5049|5045|2004-08-14 18:28:48|Henri Naths|Re: Composting toilet for boats|I,ve heard of diesel toilets, not sure how they work, apperently they fry the sh..any body use them on a boat???? ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 14 August, 2004 2:21 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Composting toilet for boats Hi. I too looked at these but decided I couldn't afford the space. In reading the literature for several composting toilets, I found that it takes a very large one to accommodate 2 people in continues use. They usually say that there designed to handle weekend cruisers with a possible 2 week vacation once a year. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: knutfg [mailto:knutfg@...] Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 3:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Composting toilet for boats In planning for a possible cruising sailboat I certainly don't like the cost, installation complexity, operation and maintenance hassles and risks involved with normal marine toilets. There are currently more than one type of composting toilets designed for use in boats and the price and size has come down quite a bit. From cabin-use on land I have very good personal experience with such systems, but I have never used one in a boat. If properly designed, isntalled and operated I cannot see why they should not work equally well in a boat, but sometimes theory and real life is not the same. The question is therefore: Have anyone tried, considered, installed, used or heard about such toilets in boats? In particular actual boat experience would be very useful. I am very much looking forward to avoid having a holding tank full of sh... that is not always so easy to get rid of in a proper manner. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5050|4934|2004-08-14 23:54:50|John Jones|Re: Water Heater|I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > wrote: > > > --John > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is turned > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you are using as > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water storage tank or to > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull fumes and you > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > > John > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar > water heater. :) > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5051|5014|2004-08-15 03:09:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Older pre-owned steel boats|If the boat is generally seaworthy, I'd recommend living aboard and sailing the boat for a period of time (1-2 years) before any major renovation. You will likely find that your priorities change dramatically as you come to know the boat. Everything on a boat is a compromise, and an improvement in one area often means giving up something in another area. Make a list of those changes that are "mandatory", and then sort them in order from most important to least important. Any changes that can be sorted into order are by definition not mandatory, and can probably be discarded until later. In general, I would leave the steel work "as is" unless there is a definite defect. There are lots of ways to modify a boat that don't involve changing the steel work. We have a 50 gallon blue poly drum on deck for a solar hot water heater, led into the head. We added an extra 50 gallon "drop in" water tank in Oz for drinking water. We have a FG/ply hard dodger, which has definite advantages in the tropics over a PH. For cold weather sailing, the dodger can be as big as you need. For example: "Because" had a FG dodger over the full cockpit, with sliding doors on the sides. Fittings can be through bolted on an existing steel hull with SS bolts, washers and caulking, eliminating welding. Wire lifelines are fine if the wires and stations are stout, and with the addition of pelican hooks you can pull the dinghy aboard over the gunwales without having to lift it over the rails. For sailing, rely on your harness, not the lifelines. Clamp a low cost alloy barby to the stern rail. A "Sayes" style self steering can be easily fabricated for almost any boat. It is simple - sort of like a trim tab but with a much larger mechanical advantage. No boat is "perfect" There are lots of solution to "problems" on boats to get you cruising, that can be made quickly and at relative low cost without specialized gear. You can often get 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost and effort, if you make simple, minor modifications rather than large, complex changes. There is lots to recommend in buying a used steel boat if it is relatively free of corrosion. In North America, used steel boats in general have low resale value, often making them a good choice for cruising. By and large, unless you have lots of time on your hands, if you are considering building a boat with used equipment, it is quicker and cheaper to buy the equipment in one lot, with a boat already attached, rather than buying the equipment piece by piece and building a boat around it. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: James Douglas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Older pre-owned steel boats But she definitely requires some of that pioneering/artisan influence that this group exudes so well to transform her into a liveaboard capable residence for a work a day chap like myself. Given her short comings (below) I am wondering just how big a deal would it be to correct these defects/shortcomings. 33 feet LOA, nice displacement @ 17,500 Lbs., has dodger but no pilot house, apparently poffered for sale cheap as a blue water boat but...has no self steering,...no anchor windlass,...no steel life line railings, does have the standard life lines as may be found on the normal production fiberglass boat but I like the security of stuff that doesn't move like welded steel railings! plus it doesn't have a barby. 33 feet is a nice size for my livaboard intentions, big enough for my four kids to come over and beat me up for the weekend, clean me out of food and be gone by Sunday night back to their mom. Boat's been hauled, painted and new zincs put in place. Subject to a survey, I have no doubts about the hull. Fin keeler, GRRRR; but has zodiak! Re: liveaboard: no hot water; no pressure water; no shower; cold water only at 50 gallon capaciry with no water maker; no holding tank installed for the head. For the next 3 t 5 years while I pay her off, I probably will be tied up at a dock most of the time...got to get to and from work like everyone else Hull's been foamed, with a wood panelled interior in place. I would prefer using my own onboard facilities, i.e. for toilet, shower and hot water: this dictates that I would have to upgrade the boat's systems. So how big a deal is this? Also, I will have engage on welding on the deck to install....a windlass, self steerig, achor chocks, hand and life railings, dorade boxes, even a pilot house for inside steering, given that the boat has been foamed how big a deal is this and what of the jeopardy of a fire?? Is this managable?? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5052|4934|2004-08-15 08:08:35|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Water Heater|In defense of on demand water heaters! All the bathrooms in my house have on demand electric hot water heaters. Turning the water on in the shower stall creates pressure within the shower head and electric contact is made. A 5,000 watt heating element heats the water. The water comes out of the shower head hot enough to scald a chicken. Cost for a complete shower head = 5 US$. Down town they sell a gas fired shower head. Inside the head there is a burner similar to the one on your kitchen stove. The water runs across a heated plate and depending on how much water and the amount you turn up the burner you can scald a turkey instead of that scrawny chicken. Cost for a complete gas shower head = 20 US$. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > wrote: > > > > > --John > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is > turned > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you are using as > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water storage tank or > to > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull fumes and > you > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > > > John > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar > > water heater. :) > > > > -- > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5053|4934|2004-08-15 11:18:25|Henri Naths|Re: Water Heater|now I know why you moved to Brazil , hot women and hot showers, lol. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 15 August, 2004 6:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater In defense of on demand water heaters! All the bathrooms in my house have on demand electric hot water heaters. Turning the water on in the shower stall creates pressure within the shower head and electric contact is made. A 5,000 watt heating element heats the water. The water comes out of the shower head hot enough to scald a chicken. Cost for a complete shower head = 5 US$. Down town they sell a gas fired shower head. Inside the head there is a burner similar to the one on your kitchen stove. The water runs across a heated plate and depending on how much water and the amount you turn up the burner you can scald a turkey instead of that scrawny chicken. Cost for a complete gas shower head = 20 US$. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > wrote: > > > > > --John > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is > turned > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you are using as > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water storage tank or > to > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull fumes and > you > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > > > John > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar > > water heater. :) > > > > -- > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5054|5054|2004-08-15 13:37:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|welding design and stress|Often overlooked in metal boat building is weld design. Yet it one of the most critical elements of a metal boat. No matter how good the welder's technique, a poorly designed weld can multiply the stress in a metal boat, leading to fatigue, cracks, and failures. I've uploaded an example of a problem weld to the photo's section, under FEA, image1.jpg. This shows three pieces of metal, meeting at right angles. The bottom piece is under load, the top piece is supporting the load, and the middle piece is caught between, providing only minimal support because its weakest section is in the direction of the load. As can be seen from the picture, the stress is concentrated at the point where the metal meets, and greatly magnified. How do you recognize a potential problem with a weld design? One simple rule is to weld strength to strength. When looking at a weld, consider how the load will be passed. Metal with it thickest section in the direction of the load is strong, and with its thinnest section in the direction of the load is weak. Thus, the weld in our example can be thought of as strong-weak-strong, and is potentially a problem. Changing the weld design, so that the bottom plate penetrates the top plate would result in strong-strong, which would typically not be a problem. There are members on this site that deal with weld design professionally that might be able to provide more insight. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5055|4934|2004-08-15 13:57:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Water Heater|Gerald, I'd really like to see a water heater of any kind that costs only $5. A shower head capable of heating water from say 60 degrees to 100 degrees F. at a rate of say 1.5 gpm, and is only the size of a grapefruit seems quite amazing to me. Could you supply a manufacturers name? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 8:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > In defense of on demand water heaters! > All the bathrooms in my house have on demand electric hot water > heaters. Turning the water on in the shower stall creates pressure > within the shower head and electric contact is made. A 5,000 watt > heating element heats the water. The water comes out of the shower > head hot enough to scald a chicken. Cost for a complete shower head = > 5 US$. > Down town they sell a gas fired shower head. Inside the head there is > a burner similar to the one on your kitchen stove. The water runs > across a heated plate and depending on how much water and the amount > you turn up the burner you can scald a turkey instead of that scrawny > chicken. Cost for a complete gas shower head = 20 US$. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > --John > > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is > > turned > > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you > are using as > > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water > storage tank or > > to > > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull > fumes and > > you > > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > > > > John > > > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar > > > water heater. :) > > > > > > -- > > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5056|3492|2004-08-15 14:34:02|Gerd|Re: hull design|have a look at my website www.justmueller.com/boats/ I have done quite a lot of playing around with different approaches to transform hard chine hulls into origami, and there is a long section with lots of details ont he design process, using CAD. There are probably other ways to do that, but as described there it will work, at least it worked for my hull ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bennettk2000" wrote: > ok ok, where how or who do i need to talk to in order to figure an > origami design for a double ender like a tahitiana, westsail etc. > since it is pretty much symmetrical i would think easy to do. > any ideas? leads? etc? > thanks for your time | 5057|5044|2004-08-15 14:39:13|Gerd|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Knut, go back aout 6 weeks in the messages, and you will find TONS of arguments, for, against and in between. Pops up ever so often, and for good reason. Your points are valid, but there are a lot of other things to consider as you will find out when going through the pile... I am not sure though if the group is ready for yet another steel/alloy discussion ;-) Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueler.com/boats/ .... > I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May > be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and > is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around? | 5058|5044|2004-08-15 18:29:19|knutfg|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: Gerd, thanks for the tip, but I have spent hours going through from July 1 until today without really hitting any answers. Of course it is a bit optimistic of me to assume I would, but it is really the reason why I have raised the question again. The various posted subjects that touch upon my question are very wide reaching and in many ways informative, but still the content is leaving wide fields of open questions. Contributing to my problem of finding postings specific to my query is that this site has no real thread-organizing of the different subjects (or are there features here that I have not found??) and on top of that, the search archive function is turning up anythin and everything (as it looks). Comparing with some other sites I have visited, it looks like this one is a bit more difficult to keep structured on subjects and threads. Anyway, I have more or less paged through everything by now and onwards it is easier, because just skimming all posts will give an overview automatically. One reason for my interest in comparing steel and aluminum for 31' and less, is that I will probably not spend the time to get proficient in welding in any case. Therefore, if I will buy a ready made hull from professional welders, I may as well select the right material (if aluminum, it does not matter that it takes more experience and training, as long as the welder is qualified). I also realize that my specific questions are not so simple to answer and if nobody has the basis to post replies, or the time to work them out, that is fair enough. After all we all act here on a totally voluntary basis and out of personal interest and goodwill. I am still hoping for some further input, if somebody feels like it. > Knut, go back aout 6 weeks in the messages, and you will find TONS > of arguments, for, against and in between. Pops up ever so often, > and for good reason. > Your points are valid, but there are a lot of other things to > consider as you will find out when going through the pile... > I am not sure though if the group is ready for yet another > steel/alloy discussion ;-) > > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueler.com/boats/ > > .... > > I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May > > be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and > > is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around? | 5059|4934|2004-08-15 19:32:03|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Water Heater|Here is a page with several electric shower heads. I see the cheapest that they list is 22 Reals$. At about 3-1 it runs around 7US$. http://www.jabu.com.br/B2C/EngineB2C/prateleira.asp?subcategoria=134&acao=open&P=1 If you want more information you can do a Google search of LORENZETTI, one of the manufacturers. I just read somewhere that the unit uses 1.7 litros of water per min. I can't seem to locate that page again? I first came to Brazil in 1988. I was heading up a group of 15 American families and us guys were going to reorganize the work force down here. ROFLMAO!!! I went out and about to look for housing for the crew. After seeing a couple of these electric shower heads with exposed wires I commented about the danger. The translator seemed puzzled. I explained that while taking a shower you happened to touch the wire it would kill you. She smiled in agreement. I said" Well ..... uh, what about your kids?" She said," We tell them not to touch the wires". Guess that weeds out the kids that don't listen! I have yet to hear of a death related to electrocution in a shower stall. These shower heads are available in the states. However, when I looked into them they were around $250 per head. Probably have some safeguards installed so as not to weed out the kids that don't listen. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Gerald, > I'd really like to see a water heater of any kind that costs only $5. A > shower head capable of heating water from say 60 degrees to 100 degrees F. > at a rate of say 1.5 gpm, and is only the size of a grapefruit seems quite > amazing to me. Could you supply a manufacturers name? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 8:08 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > > > > In defense of on demand water heaters! > > All the bathrooms in my house have on demand electric hot water > > heaters. Turning the water on in the shower stall creates pressure > > within the shower head and electric contact is made. A 5,000 watt > > heating element heats the water. The water comes out of the shower > > head hot enough to scald a chicken. Cost for a complete shower head = > > 5 US$. > > Down town they sell a gas fired shower head. Inside the head there is > > a burner similar to the one on your kitchen stove. The water runs > > across a heated plate and depending on how much water and the amount > > you turn up the burner you can scald a turkey instead of that scrawny > > chicken. Cost for a complete gas shower head = 20 US$. > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > > > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > --John > > > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is > > > turned > > > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you > > are using as > > > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water > > storage tank or > > > to > > > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull > > fumes and > > > you > > > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > > > > > John > > > > > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar > > > > water heater. :) > > > > > > > > -- > > > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5060|4934|2004-08-16 02:21:53|John Cupp|Re: Water Heater|That is all well and good but I was just taking advantage of unused heat in the exhaust that nobody uses at this point in time. I also have an on demand water heater in my house but it does not have a diesel power unit taking it across the Pacific ocean. I thought some of the people on the forum might want to use this device to get a hot shower while there is no wind or motorsailing up wind? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > Here is a page with several electric shower heads. I see the cheapest > that they list is 22 Reals$. At about 3-1 it runs around 7US$. > http://www.jabu.com.br/B2C/EngineB2C/prateleira.asp? subcategoria=134&acao=open&P=1 > If you want more information you can do a Google search of LORENZETTI, > one of the manufacturers. I just read somewhere that the unit uses 1.7 > litros of water per min. I can't seem to locate that page again? > I first came to Brazil in 1988. I was heading up a group of 15 > American families and us guys were going to reorganize the work force > down here. ROFLMAO!!! I went out and about to look for housing for the > crew. After seeing a couple of these electric shower heads with > exposed wires I commented about the danger. The translator seemed > puzzled. I explained that while taking a shower you happened to touch > the wire it would kill you. She smiled in agreement. I said" Well > ..... uh, what about your kids?" She said," We tell them not to touch > the wires". Guess that weeds out the kids that don't listen! I have > yet to hear of a death related to electrocution in a shower stall. > These shower heads are available in the states. However, when I looked > into them they were around $250 per head. Probably have some > safeguards installed so as not to weed out the kids that don't listen. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > Gerald, > > I'd really like to see a water heater of any kind that costs only $5. A > > shower head capable of heating water from say 60 degrees to 100 > degrees F. > > at a rate of say 1.5 gpm, and is only the size of a grapefruit seems > quite > > amazing to me. Could you supply a manufacturers name? > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 8:08 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > > > > > > > > In defense of on demand water heaters! > > > All the bathrooms in my house have on demand electric hot water > > > heaters. Turning the water on in the shower stall creates pressure > > > within the shower head and electric contact is made. A 5,000 watt > > > heating element heats the water. The water comes out of the shower > > > head hot enough to scald a chicken. Cost for a complete shower head = > > > 5 US$. > > > Down town they sell a gas fired shower head. Inside the head there is > > > a burner similar to the one on your kitchen stove. The water runs > > > across a heated plate and depending on how much water and the amount > > > you turn up the burner you can scald a turkey instead of that scrawny > > > chicken. Cost for a complete gas shower head = 20 US$. > > > Gerald > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > wrote: > > > > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery > wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > --John > > > > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the > water is > > > > turned > > > > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you > > > are using as > > > > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water > > > storage tank or > > > > to > > > > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull > > > fumes and > > > > you > > > > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane > runs out. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a > nice solar > > > > > water heater. :) > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5061|5044|2004-08-16 05:11:17|Gerd|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Knut, I guess there is no final reply, only opinions on specific points and questions which really have all been given here. My personal opinion is that you will get a better boat in alloy, IF... and that 's where it starts, from scantling to paint to welding and so on. If you can go for a professionally quality build hull, alloy is good. If you want a low budget do it all yourself hull, steel seems to me to be better choice. Gerd| 5062|5044|2004-08-16 11:57:32|ben_azo|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Personaly I would also ask for a quotation to build the hull in Corten or Kortensteel , especialy if the boat will sitt on the beach with each tide . Why ? Any protection as primers , paints & antifouling will suffer so some surface will be unprotected steel or aluminum , the best steel ( you could consider it self-protecting ) to avoid rust is Corten or Korten . The Dutch use is often , some viaducts for trafic and even some real pretty well engineered buildings stand sinds more than 20 years totaly unprotected and still do the job they where designed for with strenght and elegance. Corten or Korten is a bit harder to form , cause its a bit stiffer I havent seen the plans but with the same scantlings you can expect higher strenght , so it sure could be interesting to run both hulls through the computer and see if any weightsavings can be considered , eventualy the yard could even choose for a VdS ( only vertical stiffeners or webs) but you sure should consult the designer . Insurance sure would be cheaper if you build to classification scantlings , and a ceritification is a best price guarantee for any second hand boat offered for sale :-) You could start with a 26' and want a 31' later . A Belgian member is seriously considering having one build:-) Who better to trade in , than the builder ? Just some thoughts and wondering Ben > > > I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. > May > > > be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat > and > > > is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? > Any > > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around?| 5063|5063|2004-08-16 13:58:05|edward_stoneuk|Groups photo album.|I tried to upload some photos but got a warning message thet we were nearly full. I emailed yahoo who replied with this; " Thank you for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care. Each group has 30 megabytes (MB) of storage in the Photos area, as noted in that area of the group. Depending on the size (resolution) of your images, that 30MB could consist of several hundred images, or only a few. There is also a maximum file size limit of 5MB. If you attempt to upload more than 30MB total or any photo larger than 5MB to your group, you will get an error. Currently your Yahoo! Group is about to exceed the maximum storage limit in the Photos area. If you would like to add more content, you may either delete existing images to make room for new ones, or use the Links feature to point to photos stored on locations outside of your group, such as a web page, Yahoo! Briefcase or Yahoo! Photos. Please note, unless you are a moderator, you can only delete photos or albums that you uploaded/created. Unfortunately, purchasing additional photo storage within Yahoo! Groups is not available at this time. We apologize if this has caused you any inconvenience. " Perhaps members whose photos have served their purpose can delete them or are there any alternatives? Regards, Ted| 5064|5063|2004-08-16 17:22:51|spencerj71|Re: Groups photo album.|Another yahoo group of which I'm a member has circumvented this poblem by starting a second group, in our case Origamiboats 2, which is used strictly for files and pictures (all messages are done on the original group). This doubles your storage space. Of course I'm not trying to discourage any house-keeping...just an idea for our moderator to think about. - Spence --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > I tried to upload some photos but got a warning message thet we were > nearly full. I emailed yahoo who replied with this; > > > " Thank you for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care. > > Each group has 30 megabytes (MB) of storage in the Photos area, as > noted > in that area of the group. Depending on the size (resolution) of > your > images, that 30MB could consist of several hundred images, or only a > few. There is also a maximum file size limit of 5MB. If you attempt > to > upload more than 30MB total or any photo larger than 5MB to your > group, > you will get an error. > > Currently your Yahoo! Group is about to exceed the maximum storage > limit > in the Photos area. If you would like to add more content, you may > either delete existing images to make room for new ones, or use the > Links feature to point to photos stored on locations outside of your > group, such as a web page, Yahoo! Briefcase or Yahoo! Photos. > > Please note, unless you are a moderator, you can only delete photos > or > albums that you uploaded/created. > > Unfortunately, purchasing additional photo storage within Yahoo! > Groups > is not available at this time. We apologize if this has caused you > any > inconvenience. " > > Perhaps members whose photos have served their purpose can delete > them or are there any alternatives? > > Regards, > Ted | 5065|4934|2004-08-16 17:23:16|John Jones|Re: Water Heater|Okay folks I was actually referring to the demand water heater thatb uses a "remote" heater----- as in outside,propane fired, outdoor vented--- water heater that is self igniting and heats the water REAL FAST through a set of coils and baffels . A Canadian company called Straight & Mckay in Nova Scotia has them in stock and ----well,,, we had one in porto Plata, ( I know thats spelt wrong) "sorry" But it was great and it only made us water when you needed it. Scalding hot when not mixed with cold water but efficient, and is'nt that just what we are looking for? I have a friend who has seen these electric shower heads and says he could see the electric ark through the head of the shower... Don't sound right to me John And yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > That is all well and good but I was just taking advantage of unused > heat in the exhaust that nobody uses at this point in time. I also > have an on demand water heater in my house but it does not have a > diesel power unit taking it across the Pacific ocean. I thought some > of the people on the forum might want to use this device to get a hot > shower while there is no wind or motorsailing up wind? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > Here is a page with several electric shower heads. I see the > cheapest > > that they list is 22 Reals$. At about 3-1 it runs around 7US$. > > http://www.jabu.com.br/B2C/EngineB2C/prateleira.asp? > subcategoria=134&acao=open&P=1 > > If you want more information you can do a Google search of > LORENZETTI, > > one of the manufacturers. I just read somewhere that the unit uses > 1.7 > > litros of water per min. I can't seem to locate that page again? > > I first came to Brazil in 1988. I was heading up a group of 15 > > American families and us guys were going to reorganize the work > force > > down here. ROFLMAO!!! I went out and about to look for housing for > the > > crew. After seeing a couple of these electric shower heads with > > exposed wires I commented about the danger. The translator seemed > > puzzled. I explained that while taking a shower you happened to > touch > > the wire it would kill you. She smiled in agreement. I said" Well > > ..... uh, what about your kids?" She said," We tell them not to > touch > > the wires". Guess that weeds out the kids that don't listen! I have > > yet to hear of a death related to electrocution in a shower stall. > > These shower heads are available in the states. However, when I > looked > > into them they were around $250 per head. Probably have some > > safeguards installed so as not to weed out the kids that don't > listen. > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > > wrote: > > > Gerald, > > > I'd really like to see a water heater of any kind that costs only > $5. A > > > shower head capable of heating water from say 60 degrees to 100 > > degrees F. > > > at a rate of say 1.5 gpm, and is only the size of a grapefruit > seems > > quite > > > amazing to me. Could you supply a manufacturers name? > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 8:08 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In defense of on demand water heaters! > > > > All the bathrooms in my house have on demand electric hot water > > > > heaters. Turning the water on in the shower stall creates > pressure > > > > within the shower head and electric contact is made. A 5,000 > watt > > > > heating element heats the water. The water comes out of the > shower > > > > head hot enough to scald a chicken. Cost for a complete shower > head = > > > > 5 US$. > > > > Down town they sell a gas fired shower head. Inside the head > there is > > > > a burner similar to the one on your kitchen stove. The water > runs > > > > across a heated plate and depending on how much water and the > amount > > > > you turn up the burner you can scald a turkey instead of that > scrawny > > > > chicken. Cost for a complete gas shower head = 20 US$. > > > > Gerald > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" john@s...> > > wrote: > > > > > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery > > > wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > --John > > > > > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the > > water is > > > > > turned > > > > > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water > that you > > > > are using as > > > > > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot > water > > > > storage tank or > > > > > to > > > > > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > > > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no > harmfull > > > > fumes and > > > > > you > > > > > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane > > runs out. > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a > > nice solar > > > > > > water heater. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5066|5063|2004-08-16 17:44:04|fmichael graham|Re: Groups photo album.|Ted: Good idea. Regards, Mike edward_stoneuk wrote: ... Perhaps members whose photos have served their purpose can delete them or are there any alternatives? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129of379c/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092765486/A=2181364/R=0/id=flashurl/SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_263_060804.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129of379c/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092765486/A=2181364/R=1/id=altimgurl/SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_060804.jpg";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5067|4934|2004-08-16 18:41:35|Bill Jaine|Re: Water Heater|I�m really interested in HYPERLINK "http://www.zodi.com/"www.zodi.com type heaters both water and cabin, comments thoughts anyone? Bill Port Hope. Canada --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5068|4934|2004-08-16 22:45:30|fmichael graham|Re: Water Heater|I looked at ZODI showers & heaters for camp use, while building my cabin last summer/fall. Unfortunately, there was only one distributor in B.C., at that time, and the salesman at Steveston Hardware(marine supply) - the only place that carried them - told me that the distributor was useless for customer service. The heater unit - single tank - looked poorly made. But, as I could never get hold of the distributor, I never saw the shower, up close. If I remember correctly, they are all propane - o.k. for the bush, but not so great on a boat. Hopefully, Coleman will bring out their own version. Mike Bill Jaine wrote: I�m really interested in HYPERLINK "http://www.zodi.com/"www.zodi.com type heaters both water and cabin, comments thoughts anyone? Bill Port Hope. Canada --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5069|5063|2004-08-17 09:31:53|ben_azo|Re: Groups photo album.|http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ works fine , just look at 2 fine Pics in Photos --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Another yahoo group of which I'm a member has circumvented this > poblem by starting a second group, in our case Origamiboats 2, which > is used strictly for files and pictures (all messages are done on the > original group). This doubles your storage space. Of course I'm not > trying to discourage any house-keeping...just an idea for our > moderator to think about. > > - Spence > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > I tried to upload some photos but got a warning message thet we > were > > nearly full. I emailed yahoo who replied with this; > > > > > > " Thank you for contacting Yahoo! Customer Care. > > > > Each group has 30 megabytes (MB) of storage in the Photos area, as > > noted > > in that area of the group. Depending on the size (resolution) of > > your > > images, that 30MB could consist of several hundred images, or only > a > > few. There is also a maximum file size limit of 5MB. If you attempt > > to > > upload more than 30MB total or any photo larger than 5MB to your > > group, > > you will get an error. > > > > Currently your Yahoo! Group is about to exceed the maximum storage > > limit > > in the Photos area. If you would like to add more content, you may > > either delete existing images to make room for new ones, or use the > > Links feature to point to photos stored on locations outside of > your > > group, such as a web page, Yahoo! Briefcase or Yahoo! Photos. > > > > Please note, unless you are a moderator, you can only delete photos > > or > > albums that you uploaded/created. > > > > Unfortunately, purchasing additional photo storage within Yahoo! > > Groups > > is not available at this time. We apologize if this has caused you > > any > > inconvenience. " > > > > Perhaps members whose photos have served their purpose can delete > > them or are there any alternatives? > > > > Regards, > > Ted | 5070|5070|2004-08-17 09:51:52|kwing175|Borge Warner Transmission for sale|In case any one has a need a friend has a Borge Warner transmission for sale on e-bay. Refurbed, completely functional Borg Warner 71-C Velvet Drive Marine Transmission. Direct Drive 1:1 Ratio Motor was replaced, Transmission rebuilt but didn't fit new motor. Needs good home, ready to go Sailin!!!! Model 10-17-001 Shipping cost extra! Where ever you are, we will send it!!! Keith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5071|4674|2004-08-17 12:49:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|I love the irony. I am not aware of any prohibition against asking for a reply to an email. You may not get one, but you certainly have the right to ask, especially in matters regarding safety. Vessel seaworthiness comes under the criminal code in Canada. There have been lots of postings on this site, outlining the dangers of stress risers in steel construction. Certainly Brent has written on the need to prevent them. Welding a skeg to the outside of a boat, with only transverse supports inside will result in stress risers at the points of intersection. It is my understanding that this is the "recommended" way to build an origami boat as per Brent's book. Not only for skegs, but for bilge keels as well. Stress risers in the skeg and bilge keels are a seaworthiness issue. I'm not criticizing or knocking anyone personally. I'm criticizing skeg attachments that result in stress risers. There is nothing personal in this. My aim is not to discredit anyone. It is to correct a likely source of metal fatigue in a critical area, and thereby improve the safety of origami boats. Fatigue failures in steel boats indicate that it is not sufficient to simply add transverse framing to a skeg. The framing must be done correctly, to transfer the loads without creating stress risers. To that end I recently posted a series of different skeg attachment, with an associated stress analysis for each. I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats. The bilge keels may be more at risk than the skeg or keel, because they lack the inherent support provided by the centerline. We specifically added an additional chine to our designs to support the bilge keels. As time permits I will try and run a stress analysis of bilge keel attachments to supplement the work I have already posted on skegs. As Brent says, look at the person giving advice. Ask what has it done for them. Most people that consider building a boat do not want to be boat builders. They want to be sailors - to go cruising - and see building a boat as a step in the process. These are the people I write for. I have done this, gone cruising for years at a time, with my family, built wealth along the way, and have posted my methods to the group. If this is not your interest, skip my emails. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com > ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! > > > It was not up to him to be asking and almost demanding a response. | 5072|5072|2004-08-17 17:52:13|brentswain38|Stress risers|When a gusset on the inside of the shell plate lines up perfectly with plate on the outside and the welds attaching both to the plate are 100% strength, then the effect, structurally ,is the same as it would be if the plate went right thu the hull plate. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. With the weight of twin keels being low and centred on the boat, one can add whatever stuctural material one chooses with little effect on performance. Lately I've been thinking of putting gussets attaching the transverse angle iron webs ,running over the twin keels ,to the inside of the keels to increase the attachement of the keel sides to the webs and lessen the sharpness of the corners there. On Island Breeze , Jack was sailing off the Charlottes when he came down off a 12 foot swell and found himself high and dry on a flat rock slab. Seveal more swells lifted him and dropped him on the rock slab before he cleared it . Later, entering the Oona River ,in a large swell, with inadequate water to float him in the troughs, he did the same lift and pound routine to get in, with no structural worries, and again no dammage.He then did a circumnavigation with no structural problems.His keels were attached the same way I'd reccommended , back in 1984 , and the boat is on it's way to Fiji at the moment. Yet ,Greg , you claim that it is structurally inadequate? So tell us Greg, what similar torture tests have your designs encountered? We're dying to hear about them. An extra chine is a hell of a lot more work than putting a bit of extra structural steel inside. Brent Swain| 5073|5044|2004-08-17 17:58:30|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Altho I prefer the toughness, resistance to metal fatigue and corrosion and the ability to use a wider range of antifouling paints , of a steel hull, if I were much richer ,and concerned about weight, I'd consider a steel hull and sidedecks with an aluminium cabin, wheelhouse and possibly cockpit. As the hulldeck joint takes the entire twisting load on a hull ,I'd avoid having the transition in materials there. There are no such loads on the deck-cabinside joint.Corrosion is easier to deal with and keep track of above the decks. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > My feeling is that steel is close to the perfect material for > sailboats 36' and more since the weight of the material becomes less > important for the larger designs. > > However, the 26' and may be also the 31' would probably benefit > substantially from using aluminum in the sense that the capacity to > carry supplies would be better. It should also allow relatively more > weight in the keel and less in the hull and deck for the same total > displacement, giving a boat with less heel for a given wind-load. > > I also have in mind that for a smaller hull, the difference in > material cost for hull/deck between steel and aluminum cannot be too > much. At the same time I would expect the second hand value of an > aluminum yacht to be quite a bit better than for steel, thus quickle > more than compensating the intial cost difference. > > I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May > be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and > is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around? | 5074|5045|2004-08-17 18:06:20|brentswain38|Re: Composting toilet for boats|When I asked a friend who lives aboard in a no-dump zone how he deals with shit he said "I have a composting toilet' I said " What kind" he said "Two plastic buckets, one for shit and the other full of cedar sawdust and a can, and no water. When I use the shit bucket, with a layer of sawdust in the bottom I sprinkle a can of cedar sawdust on top. There is no smell and when it begins to fill, I dump it back in the bush( not George , unfortunately). By then it looks like topsoil and there is never any smell."The same trick works with woodstove ashes. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > In planning for a possible cruising sailboat I certainly don't like > the cost, installation complexity, operation and maintenance hassles > and risks involved with normal marine toilets. > > There are currently more than one type of composting toilets > designed for use in boats and the price and size has come down quite > a bit. From cabin-use on land I have very good personal experience > with such systems, but I have never used one in a boat. If properly > designed, isntalled and operated I cannot see why they should not > work equally well in a boat, but sometimes theory and real life is > not the same. > > The question is therefore: Have anyone tried, considered, installed, > used or heard about such toilets in boats? In particular actual boat > experience would be very useful. I am very much looking forward to > avoid having a holding tank full of sh... that is not always so easy > to get rid of in a proper manner. | 5075|4934|2004-08-17 18:10:59|brentswain38|Re: Water Heater|Friends who use the demand type hot water heaters have all been very happy with them. Wolters are no longer made and impossible to get parts for altho they were the best available. Bosch are excellent . Palomas used too many steel parts which tended to corrode. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > I'll bet you really enjoy your showers;-) > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:48:16 -0000, "John Jones" > > wrote: > > > > > --John > > > Have you ever heard of a "Demand" water heater? When the water is > turned > > > on a flow switch turns on the gas that heats the water that you are using as > > > you are using it therefore you have no need for a hot water storage tank or > to > > > be heating water when you don't need it. > > > It mounts and vents outside the cabinso you get no harmfull fumes and > you > > > can have an endless HOT SHOWER .... or untill the propane runs out. > > > John > > > > The best water heater is a kettle on the stove/heater, or a nice solar > > water heater. :) > > > > -- > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5076|4674|2004-08-17 18:13:19|fmichael graham|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Greg: 1) Vessel seaworthiness falls under the Canada Shipping Act and is handled by Ship Safety. 2) Re-read your posts and try to say this with a straight face. 3) Bullshit. You do it time & time again. Fortunately, my experience in the Canadian Coast Guard & steel industry allow me to smell you coming. Sadly, a member who knows little may be "taken in" by you. 4) Here we go again. O.K., Greg, list the names of those who have reported structural failures to you because, personally, I don't believe you. I'm sick of hearing your fear-mongering approach to discussions in this group. You're not an engineer, marine or otherwise, nor are you the sole expert on sailing off-shore. Re-read your post regarding all of the friends that you have lost off-shore. Seems accusatory & alarmist to me. I would suggest that your great concern for keel attachments is less important to the amateur builder than any recommendation that they build with aluminum. And, finally, while Alex, et al, may believe that your vacation posting was an honest mistake, I don't buy it for a second. No, I don't plan on reading your future posts - if I want advertising, I'll turn on the T.V.. Sincerely, Mike Graham ge@... wrote: 1) Vessel seaworthiness comes under the criminal code in Canada. 2)I'm not criticizing or knocking anyone personally. 3) There is nothing personal in this. My aim is not to discredit anyone. 4)I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5077|5044|2004-08-17 18:21:21|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|In the 70's I was moored off a shipyard in Auckland where they had been building steel tugs for decades. When I asked the foreman about corten he said that they had tried it and found that it was far more trouble and expense than it was worth. Distortion was much greater, and there was electrolysis between the welds and the corten. As it was only available in plate and not in any other shapes , there was electrolysis between other shapes and the plate. They went back to common mild steel as there was no good reason not to. When I'm not cruising offshore , the bottom of my twin keels tend to look like freshly sandblasted steel for years at a time ,and I've had no corrosion problems there . The zincs have always kept them shiny and rust free. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Personaly I would also ask for a quotation to build the hull > in Corten or Kortensteel , especialy if the boat will sitt on the > beach with each tide . Why ? Any protection as primers , paints > & antifouling will suffer so some surface will be unprotected > steel or aluminum , the best steel ( you could consider it > self-protecting ) to avoid rust is Corten or Korten . > The Dutch use is often , some viaducts for trafic and even > some real pretty well engineered buildings stand sinds more > than 20 years totaly unprotected and still do the job they > where designed for with strenght and elegance. > Corten or Korten is a bit harder to form , cause its a bit stiffer > I havent seen the plans but with the same scantlings you > can expect higher strenght , so it sure could be interesting > to run both hulls through the computer and see if any > weightsavings can be considered , eventualy the yard > could even choose for a VdS ( only vertical stiffeners or webs) > but you sure should consult the designer . > Insurance sure would be cheaper if you build to classification > scantlings , and a ceritification is a best price guarantee for > any second hand boat offered for sale :-) > You could start with a 26' and want a 31' later . > A Belgian member is seriously considering having one build:-) > Who better to trade in , than the builder ? > Just some thoughts and wondering > Ben > > > > > I would very much like to hear other views about this > subject. > > May > > > > be someone has already done the homework on this, built > a boat > > and > > > > is in the position to give specific and well founded > opinions? > > Any > > > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way > around? | 5078|4934|2004-08-17 18:30:52|brentswain38|Re: Water Heater|I found Steveston Marine useless for customer service unles you are willing to go to great lengths to make their lack of service cost them dearly. When I had a problem with an electronics purchase in the first few days after I bought it,one of the owners told me " We can't afford to warrantee what we sell."Canadian Tire is much better . I once took an hour and a half to buy a VHF radio there, in a store full of salesman , including one owner,only after waving a hand full of $100 bills , pointing at the radio I wanted , and asking loudly' What the hell does one have to do to by a %#*%^radio here." I believe Payne Marine sells the bosch water heater.Forget Steveston marine for anything that you can get elsewhere. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > I looked at ZODI showers & heaters for camp use, while building my cabin last summer/fall. Unfortunately, there was only one distributor in B.C., at that time, and the salesman at Steveston Hardware(marine supply) - the only place that carried them - told me that the distributor was useless for customer service. The heater unit - single tank - looked poorly made. But, as I could never get hold of the distributor, I never saw the shower, up close. If I remember correctly, they are all propane - o.k. for the bush, but not so great on a boat. Hopefully, Coleman will bring out their own version. > Mike > > > > Bill Jaine wrote: > > I'm really interested in HYPERLINK "http://www.zodi.com/"www.zodi.com > type heaters both water and cabin, comments thoughts anyone? > > Bill > Port Hope. Canada > > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5079|5044|2004-08-17 18:43:25|Paul Cotter|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Speaking of aluminum cabin/wheelhouse on a steel hull, does anyone have personal experience with this arrangement? As far as I know, which isn’t much, there are 3 ways to make that joint: 1) buy the expensive prefabbed transition 2) use a membrane and bedding compound at the joint, through bolt it with stainless hardware through inert sleeves 3) weld a stainless transition between the steel and aluminum and then through bolt with stainless hardware Suggestions? Experience? Perhaps this has already been addressed. Thanks Paul -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 1:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum?? Altho I prefer the toughness, resistance to metal fatigue and corrosion and the ability to use a wider range of antifouling paints , of a steel hull, if I were much richer ,and concerned about weight, I'd consider a steel hull and sidedecks with an aluminium cabin, wheelhouse and possibly cockpit. As the hulldeck joint takes the entire twisting load on a hull ,I'd avoid having the transition in materials there. There are no such loads on the deck-cabinside joint.Corrosion is easier to deal with and keep track of above the decks. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > My feeling is that steel is close to the perfect material for > sailboats 36' and more since the weight of the material becomes less > important for the larger designs. > > However, the 26' and may be also the 31' would probably benefit > substantially from using aluminum in the sense that the capacity to > carry supplies would be better. It should also allow relatively more > weight in the keel and less in the hull and deck for the same total > displacement, giving a boat with less heel for a given wind-load. > > I also have in mind that for a smaller hull, the difference in > material cost for hull/deck between steel and aluminum cannot be too > much. At the same time I would expect the second hand value of an > aluminum yacht to be quite a bit better than for steel, thus quickle > more than compensating the intial cost difference. > > I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May > be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and > is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5080|5080|2004-08-18 06:59:16|romaxcn_23|De Haviland Aluminium Sailing Yacht (1995) for sale|Dear Sir, Direct from the owner we have for sale De Haviland Aluminium Sailing Yacht (1995) She is a very powerful high-speed bluewater cruiser. She is extremely easy to sail and VERY FAST - the perfect world cruiser! Her accommodation inside is very well appointed and sleeps 6-8 people very comfortably. All systems are brand new with a new water maker, a new fridge, new freezer, and an extensive inventory of new sails by Ratsey & Lapthorn. An excellent fast cruiser with a large inventory of sails with one circumnavigation to her credit. Vessel in good condition. Photos available at http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/y/2103/0/ . Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. I wait for your reply. Best regard. Loran Raul MaritimeCentral Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 RO Tel : +040 722702393 e-mail:romaxcn_23@y...| 5081|4674|2004-08-18 08:53:02|Phil S.|Aluminum Vs. Steel|Greg: Good to see you back, but please next time you go away keep us off the auto responder list. I have been putting some really good thought into Aluminum vs. Steel for boat construction. I also have a lot of experience with aircraft structures, Aluminum would be the last material I would chose for a boat, I believe even Plywood would be better (Don't shoot me Brent). You keep bringing up fatigue and stress failures, Aluminum is the worst material for stress fractures, especially at the welds. Aluminum work hardens quickly, relative to steel, once a crack starts in aluminum it keeps going, quickly. Ask any of the engineers on the early 747 program, huge cracks were developing in the skin of the wings (which if memory serves is nearly 3/4" thick near the root), no one could figure out why. The cause was eventually determined to be the painters were using razor knives to trim the tape for the graphics. That slight start to a crack would cause massive failures in wing structures. Thanks but no thanks would I want aluminum as my boat. I just read an account in Latts and Atts of a steel hulled boat that was blown ashore in Hurricane Iris, as the 140 mile and hour winds were driving this boat through the mangrove forest like a big bulldozer, busting 2ft diameter trees like twigs. The couple inside the boat while scared out of their wits, survived the encounter. After the storm, a bunch of cruisers got together, dug a trench in the sand for the keel, and used their boats (6 total) to pull the boat back to the water. The couple, did some minor rigging repair and then sailed to the nearest harbor. Just a few dents and a blown engine was the major damage to the craft. One side note from the story, the boat is fin keeled and drew nearly 6 feet of water, they couldn't reach a safer harbor, because their boat drew to much water to enter at anything other than high tide. A good case for a twin keel shallower draft boat. Regards Phil| 5082|5072|2004-08-18 11:01:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Stress risers|Great! The addition of gussets should go a long way to reducing stress risers. From our analysis, deep floors/webs penetrating down into the skeg and keels are also a big help. The details are at the following link. Let me know the final configuration and I will try and include them in the analysis. I'd be happy to help out. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm There may well have been some confusion. I got the impression your book only called for transverse supports inside, without duplicating the fore-and-aft pattern. The JM50 has certainly proven itself, much to the credit of Ken and Jean Marc. However, as has been pointed out by others, anecdotal evidence of success is meaningless. The only results that have meaning are the failures. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 2:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stress risers When a gusset on the inside of the shell plate lines up perfectly with plate on the outside and the welds attaching both to the plate are 100% strength, then the effect, structurally ,is the same as it would be if the plate went right thu the hull plate. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. With the weight of twin keels being low and centred on the boat, one can add whatever stuctural material one chooses with little effect on performance. Lately I've been thinking of putting gussets attaching the transverse angle iron webs ,running over the twin keels ,to the inside of the keels to increase the attachement of the keel sides to the webs and lessen the sharpness of the corners there. On Island Breeze , Jack was sailing off the Charlottes when he came down off a 12 foot swell and found himself high and dry on a flat rock slab. Seveal more swells lifted him and dropped him on the rock slab before he cleared it . Later, entering the Oona River ,in a large swell, with inadequate water to float him in the troughs, he did the same lift and pound routine to get in, with no structural worries, and again no dammage.He then did a circumnavigation with no structural problems.His keels were attached the same way I'd reccommended , back in 1984 , and the boat is on it's way to Fiji at the moment. Yet ,Greg , you claim that it is structurally inadequate? So tell us Greg, what similar torture tests have your designs encountered? We're dying to hear about them. An extra chine is a hell of a lot more work than putting a bit of extra structural steel inside. Brent Swain To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5083|4674|2004-08-18 11:13:19|spencerj71|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|Phil, I'm confused...didn't this exact discussion occur a couple months ago with you starting off with the same subject posting. Are you adding anything new here? Are you planning on flying in your boat or putting 747 wings on it? Should I re-post the same antecdotal evidence I did a few months ago? I thought from the last discussion that we all happily agreed that there are times when aluminum, steel, wood, plastic, cement, or whatever else you might come up with is the more appropriate material based on the mission of the boat and the people sailing it. - Spencer| 5084|4674|2004-08-18 11:45:38|Phil S.|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|Spencer: Who appointed you board nanny? Regards phil| 5085|4674|2004-08-18 11:58:39|knutfg|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|I am sorry if my specific questions regarding the use of aluminum at the lower end of the length scale (26 and 31 feet) has initiated a lot of repetition from earlier threads. That was certainly not my intention. My impression is also that even if fatigue cracks may be more of an issue with alumium than with steel, it is still a fact that there are lots of aluminum hulls in operation without such problems. I assume this has to do with proper design, the right materials selection and workmanship. IF I am to go the aluminum route, there is no doubt that I will NOT do the hull myself, so professional execution is a must in my book. Anyway, thanks for the useful comments I have received from Brent and others. It is all food for thought in an ongoing process. Who knows, I may end up with a 36' or 40' steel hull at the end of the day??? Brent also answered a question that I did not ask (but that I had in my mind). For a smaller hull, cabin and cockpit in aluminum, with steel hull and deck, could be a very interesting combination. I am looking forward to further input on the joint details to avoid corrosion problems. One comment has been made on this already, but may be someone would be bold enough to actually recommend a solution (rather than listing alternatives)? After all, when building you can only use ONE alternative. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Phil, > > I'm confused...didn't this exact discussion occur a couple months ago > with you starting off with the same subject posting. Are you adding > anything new here? Are you planning on flying in your boat or > putting 747 wings on it? Should I re-post the same antecdotal > evidence I did a few months ago? I thought from the last discussion > that we all happily agreed that there are times when aluminum, steel, > wood, plastic, cement, or whatever else you might come up with is the > more appropriate material based on the mission of the boat and the > people sailing it. > > - Spencer | 5086|4674|2004-08-18 13:26:26|spencerj71|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|Sorry, Phil. I just tire of hearing the same old rhetoric supported by anectdotal evidence. You seemed satisfied by some of mine and Greg's points last time we discussed this, what changed? - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Spencer: > Who appointed you board nanny? > Regards > phil | 5087|4674|2004-08-18 13:29:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Criminal Code 251. Operation of an unseaworthy vessel. Imprisonment not exceeding 5 years. In Brent's latest email he has recognized that the attachments should be stronger, confirming what I have been saying. Stronger attachments are significant development for origami. I am very pleased with the result. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! Greg: 1) Vessel seaworthiness falls under the Canada Shipping Act and is handled by Ship Safety. 2) Re-read your posts and try to say this with a straight face. 3) Bullshit. You do it time & time again. Fortunately, my experience in the Canadian Coast Guard & steel industry allow me to smell you coming. Sadly, a member who knows little may be "taken in" by you. 4) Here we go again. O.K., Greg, list the names of those who have reported structural failures to you because, personally, I don't believe you. I'm sick of hearing your fear-mongering approach to discussions in this group. You're not an engineer, marine or otherwise, nor are you the sole expert on sailing off-shore. Re-read your post regarding all of the friends that you have lost off-shore. Seems accusatory & alarmist to me. I would suggest that your great concern for keel attachments is less important to the amateur builder than any recommendation that they build with aluminum. And, finally, while Alex, et al, may believe that your vacation posting was an honest mistake, I don't buy it for a second. No, I don't plan on reading your future posts - if I want advertising, I'll turn on the T.V.. Sincerely, Mike Graham ge@... wrote: 1) Vessel seaworthiness comes under the criminal code in Canada. 2)I'm not criticizing or knocking anyone personally. 3) There is nothing personal in this. My aim is not to discredit anyone. 4)I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5088|3915|2004-08-18 13:29:47|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|Thanks Phil, The autoresponder was a screw up for which I apologize. I should have posted some sample emails to make sure my changes had gone through Yahoo. Getting the motorhome and the kids organized origami was not my priority. Even Alex had problems trying to reset my account. My computers have been under attack for some time so maybe this is part and parcel of the problem. Plywood, steel, alloy, FG. They are all great materials when used correctly. They all have strength and weaknesses. Over the years offshore I saw a definite shift in metal construction from steel to alloy. I would be cautious about translating aircraft results into boats. Different alloys, scantlings, and loadings. They may not apply. Personally, I think we get too caught up in saying one material is better than another. I re-read Gerr over my vacation and still find much to recommend in his comparisons of the various building materials. Because of the effects of resale value I personally would buy steel used and build alloy new, but that is me. For my part I have no problems with a steel hull. I have tons of complaints about a steel house and find it a real pain in the ass. I very much agree with Brent's thoughts that a steel hull and alloy house are a great combination, with the side decks in steel. Because of the wear and tear on the paint in the cockpit it should also be alloy. I like horizontal, wrap around coamings in a boat, because you can sit on them comfortably in hot weather with guests aboard - which we do most evenings when cruising - which allows the cockpit to be done in alloy as well. One of my biggest gripes on the Bones is that the coamings were swept for styling reasons. Styling be dammed if it comes at the expense of your comfort. I've been thinking more on our talk and a modified method of building origami boats. It seems to me that one could take 4 single chine origami hull-halves, and join them to produce a single hull with 3 centerlines. The one in the middle being the actual centerline, and the outside ones being full length chines as in standard chine construction. Doing it this way you should be able to produce a hull without any jigs or framing, as might be required if you simply pulled a boat together with flat panels. In the end you would get something very similar to our 3 chine hulls. A dart above the waterline to back a rub rail, and a dart below the waterline to back the bilge keels. There may be advantages for larger boats doing it this way, as each hull section is smaller and easier to manage, and could quite possibly be cut from 8' plates, and the full length chine allows a higher prismatic for a power boat. On the down side it will add a couple of days to the project, and there will likely be more waste, which may or may not be consumed internally for framing. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 5:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Vs. Steel Greg: Good to see you back, but please next time you go away keep us off the auto responder list. I have been putting some really good thought into Aluminum vs. Steel for boat construction. I also have a lot of experience with aircraft structures, Aluminum would be the last material I would chose for a boat, I believe even Plywood would be better (Don't shoot me Brent). You keep bringing up fatigue and stress failures, Aluminum is the worst material for stress fractures, especially at the welds. Aluminum work hardens quickly, relative to steel, once a crack starts in aluminum it keeps going, quickly. Ask any of the engineers on the early 747 program, huge cracks were developing in the skin of the wings (which if memory serves is nearly 3/4" thick near the root), no one could figure out why. The cause was eventually determined to be the painters were using razor knives to trim the tape for the graphics. That slight start to a crack would cause massive failures in wing structures. Thanks but no thanks would I want aluminum as my boat. I just read an account in Latts and Atts of a steel hulled boat that was blown ashore in Hurricane Iris, as the 140 mile and hour winds were driving this boat through the mangrove forest like a big bulldozer, busting 2ft diameter trees like twigs. The couple inside the boat while scared out of their wits, survived the encounter. After the storm, a bunch of cruisers got together, dug a trench in the sand for the keel, and used their boats (6 total) to pull the boat back to the water. The couple, did some minor rigging repair and then sailed to the nearest harbor. Just a few dents and a blown engine was the major damage to the craft. One side note from the story, the boat is fin keeled and drew nearly 6 feet of water, they couldn't reach a safer harbor, because their boat drew to much water to enter at anything other than high tide. A good case for a twin keel shallower draft boat. Regards Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5089|4674|2004-08-18 14:10:21|Phil S.|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel| I forgot about it, Sorry.| 5090|5090|2004-08-18 14:15:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Sadly, our holidays from Greg are over! Hey Greg, How about a little reality? To quote YOU from as far back as yesterday, Aug 17: A> "I'm not sure of any prohibition against asking for a reply to an e-mail. you may not get one but you certianly have the right to ask" and B> "I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats" RE: 'A' above 1. in that case why didn't you answer the questions I put to you directly on calling you on your bullshit before your (our!) holiday. Specifically aa> the monstrosity you designed with the twin rudders and no skegs you built (but aparently had noting to do with the design of the rudders) if you are such a professional, why did you build it or have anythign to do with it???????????? bb> How do you think that thing would fare in the same conditions Brentboats have PROVEN to numerous times (hmmm, no skeg, high profile rudders, run ashore & pounded.... I wonder?) cc> so dont you think that perhaps Brent deserves an apology? RE: 'B" above 1. this would be to say that you had actually recieved several (meaning literally, more than 2) reports of specific structural failures. I wonder if you can substantiate this? Strange, Brent has not just witnesses to one mishap, but a number of them. and these are not idle witnesses, but the people who own and built the boats. Can you name names of these people, the names of their boats and their contact information so your claims can be substantiated? I wonder... and to stave off any possible wiggle room, if it were me who had trusted a man enough to pay for and build his design and then had a major structural failure such as you have fearmongeringly suggested, I wouldn't mind being contacted by strangers inquiring about it, I would invite such enquiries as I would want the WORLD to know! I'm sure that Mike Graham and I are not the only ones who are sick of your postings. I have no right to demand a responce, but I do request one. If however, you do not deem it necceary, might I suggest that you change your moniker to "Rod, first initial .................." your next posting I shall read, after that I will take your advice and skip your postings. (or is it possible to have your messages blocked as Alex was able to do with your auto postings during our holidays?) Have a nice day Shane Rothwell ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5091|3915|2004-08-18 14:38:01|Phil S.|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|Ahh, I can see where you are going with the multiple folded hull pieces into one. Pretty cool. Here is a different Idea, I kind of stole from Phil Bolger, but his design is plywood. It is a modified dory design, instead of the fore being flat, you cut a curved sided V in the center of the front, going back about a third of the LWL, pull it together and weld. What you would have a a flat piece of steel at that point with the exception of the bow form. From the top the shape should identical to a dory bottom. Then forming the side would be a matter of cutting and welding on the proper pattern, the curve in the keel would be formed by the shape of the side pieces. Then weld on the deck and house. there would have to be longitudinal framing and only a couple(4 at the most) of bulkheads attached to the transverse. The advantage as I see it is, fewer full length welds, more hull volume, less waste and a hull design that could dry out without bilge keels. Add to that a heavy duty outdrive and an aircooled diesel, you could have no under water thru hull fittings at all.... Just an Idea though Regards Phil| 5092|3915|2004-08-18 14:48:32|Phil S.|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel, the almost Origami dory|Oh one other very cool point about this hull, If I did my calculations right, at 46' she would draw just about 24", with a fuel loading for coastal cruising, on longer cruises it would be more, but not much. Regards phil| 5093|4674|2004-08-18 18:32:52|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel|I've been told that the Canadian Coastguard built several boats with steel hulls and aluminium cabins ,which operate out of Victoria. They have been successful, so perhaps they have more info. I understand that they bolted the aluminium to the steel, well insulated electrically from each other .A multimeter will let you know if the insulation has been adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > I am sorry if my specific questions regarding the use of aluminum at > the lower end of the length scale (26 and 31 feet) has initiated a > lot of repetition from earlier threads. That was certainly not my > intention. My impression is also that even if fatigue cracks may be > more of an issue with alumium than with steel, it is still a fact > that there are lots of aluminum hulls in operation without such > problems. I assume this has to do with proper design, the right > materials selection and workmanship. IF I am to go the aluminum > route, there is no doubt that I will NOT do the hull myself, so > professional execution is a must in my book. > > Anyway, thanks for the useful comments I have received from Brent > and others. It is all food for thought in an ongoing process. Who > knows, I may end up with a 36' or 40' steel hull at the end of the > day??? > > Brent also answered a question that I did not ask (but that I had in > my mind). For a smaller hull, cabin and cockpit in aluminum, with > steel hull and deck, could be a very interesting combination. I am > looking forward to further input on the joint details to avoid > corrosion problems. One comment has been made on this already, but > may be someone would be bold enough to actually recommend a solution > (rather than listing alternatives)? After all, when building you can > only use ONE alternative. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > Phil, > > > > I'm confused...didn't this exact discussion occur a couple months > ago > > with you starting off with the same subject posting. Are you > adding > > anything new here? Are you planning on flying in your boat or > > putting 747 wings on it? Should I re-post the same antecdotal > > evidence I did a few months ago? I thought from the last > discussion > > that we all happily agreed that there are times when aluminum, > steel, > > wood, plastic, cement, or whatever else you might come up with is > the > > more appropriate material based on the mission of the boat and the > > people sailing it. > > > > - Spencer | 5094|5094|2004-08-18 18:43:20|brentswain38|40 ft materials list|Here is the materials list for the 40 footer. Hull 2-8X40 ft X3/16th pl 1-4X12X3/16th plate Transom, skeg and tanktop 3-5X8X3/16th Decks 3-5X12X1/8th 4-4X8X1/8th 1-4X10X1/8th 2-6X16X1/8th (Cabintop) Stifners 10-1X1X20ft angle 15-1X3/8thX20 Flatbar 4-20ft lengths sch40 galve or stainless pipe( bulwark caps) Keel or Keels 1-8ftX16ftX1/4 inch plate \1-2ftX12 ftX1/2 inch pl 3ft 6 inch sch 80 pipe ( single keel)or 2-5 ftX2 1/2 inch solid shaft( twin keels) That is the basic shell. The leading edges of the twin keels and the angles crossing the twin keels can usually be found in scrapyards cheaper, altho one should try a test weld on the shaft to make sure it is compatible with whatever welding rod you are using. Brent Swain| 5095|5095|2004-08-18 20:38:44|SHANE ROTHWELL|Joing Steel & alloy|Re Paul's question of design & joining steel to alloy. My brother in law, Grant Adlington who owns & rebuilt 'Pacific Coaster" had a professional welder going for over a year & with the aluminim wheel house the farted about trying to weld it together with the material you can weld both steel & alloy to. Grant said it was a total waste of time & they used some bedding compound & bolted the sucker together in an afternoon Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5096|5096|2004-08-18 23:27:37|carlmbentley|paint system|hello all well it's getting near time to blast and paint. any one in the us (south east maybe) done any painting on a steel swain recently. i need a low cost system to go on after i sandblast. i'm in FL so couldn't get pre-primed. any hint/tips suggestions or warning are welcome. may have a line on some surplus navy somethin or other in 55 gal drums haha. should i bother looking into it or avoid it ? carl 36' steel swain in progress thrilled to see alex's progress, congratulations.| 5097|5097|2004-08-19 00:13:32|normanbywaite|Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Hi Folks, I've been lurking around this group for about a week, and would love to read Brent Swain's book. I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I can get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how much. I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere it took 16 weeks! I'm most interested in smaller boats. I first became aware of this discussion group from a post on a microcruising yahoo group. What i REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, unstayed mast. I realize that a flush deck would mean less headroom, but i'd hope to have 8"-10" higher topsides, and portholes in the topsides. I'd love to hear some opinions about my preferences and their workability from those who've built in steel. As you can probably guess, my daydreaming is still in its infancy, and you folks (judging from the posts & replies) sound like you know what you're talking about - unlike myself. I'm about a year off beginning to build - i still have a little cedar racing dinghy to finish restoring (LOTS of sanding) before i can get into what i really want to build. Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia| 5098|5097|2004-08-19 00:41:29|pascalibook|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|On August 12th I offered Mr Swain to send him 3O Euros by Western Union so he could have cached it the same day. but my offer was rejected and I had to send cash by airmail. I have send him a confirmation mail on the 12th asking to confirm me when the cash arrived and when the book will be send . I had to bye the book to receive the info about the 26'. Until now I received no confirmation the Priority Airmail with the cash arrived or that the book was send . Lets hope for the best , I realy look forward to receive something, rather sooner than later . "pascalibook" Date:  Fri Aug 13, 2004  6:52 pm Subject:  Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?) I just followed Mr Brent Swain's instructions and mailed him 30 Euros via Prior Airmail on August 12th , I hope to receive the book soon and I hope : All will be revealed (..quote : Colin ) about all I allways wanted to know and learn about the 26BS --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > > > > > Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file > > entitled: "A- > > > > > CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the > > > > file. > > > > > All will be revealed. Colin > > In Brent Swain fashion I did this the easiest way possible. I sent > him a 20 dollar bill in the mail. Wrapped in thick paper to avoid the > nosey and greedy. lol I think $23 USD would cover it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Hi Folks, > I've been lurking around this group for about a week, and would love > to read Brent Swain's book. > I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I can > get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how much. > I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the > last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere > it took 16 weeks! > I'm most interested in smaller boats. I first became aware of this > discussion group from a post on a microcruising yahoo group. > What i REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, > but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section > of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort > of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, > unstayed mast. I realize that a flush deck would mean less headroom, > but i'd hope to have 8"-10" higher topsides, and portholes in the > topsides. > I'd love to hear some opinions about my preferences and their > workability from those who've built in steel. > As you can probably guess, my daydreaming is still in its infancy, > and you folks (judging from the posts & replies) sound like you know > what you're talking about - unlike myself. > I'm about a year off beginning to build - i still have a little cedar > racing dinghy to finish restoring (LOTS of sanding) before i can get > into what i really want to build. > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, > Australia | 5099|5097|2004-08-19 01:14:09|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Norman, I am in Auckland, New Zealand This is the email that Brent me. I then sent him the bank order for CDN$30.00 and I received the book in about two to three weeks later. If it interests you, I am busy converting my La Chica (a steal version of the Tahiti ketch) to the junkrig. Should you wish to correspond with me on that subject feel free to email me direct. -----Original Message----- From: Brent swain [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Monday, 11 August 2003 9:52 a.m. To: La-Chica@... Subject: Re: Order for your book Paul For a copy of my book, please send $20 CDN plus $10 CDN for airmail postage ,to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 Thanks Brent Swain I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I can get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how much. I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere it took 16 weeks! What I REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, unstayed mast --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 16/08/2004| 5100|5097|2004-08-19 03:38:41|normanbywaite|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Thanks Paul, I think i'll just get a bank draft for CDN$30 and mail it to him with a note. Your project sounds interesting, and i'd love to correspond about it. Got any photos? I presume you've read "Voyage for madmen", but have you read "A world of My Own" by Robin Knox-Johnson? Great looking boat, the Tahiti ketch. Are you converting it to a junk schooner? Forward mast slanted forward? Cheers, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Norman, > > I am in Auckland, New Zealand This is the email that Brent me. I then sent > him the bank order for CDN$30.00 and I received the book in about two to > three weeks later. If it interests you, I am busy converting my La Chica (a > steal version of the Tahiti ketch) to the junkrig. Should you wish to > correspond with me on that subject feel free to email me direct. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent swain [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Monday, 11 August 2003 9:52 a.m. > To: La-Chica@x... > Subject: Re: Order for your book > Paul > For a copy of my book, please send $20 CDN plus $10 CDN for airmail > postage ,to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 > Thanks > Brent Swain > I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I can > get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how much. > I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the > last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere > it took 16 weeks! > What I REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, > but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section > of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort > of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, > unstayed mast > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 16/08/2004 | 5101|5097|2004-08-19 05:02:33|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Hi Matt, Yes, to all. The bank draft worked for me and Brents book is an enjoyable and informative read. Both masts rake forward, main at 2 deg. foremast at 4 deg. I am in fact planning my own single handed circunavigation. You can get some info at my website www.SailingWithoutAsound.com I have only just started it so it is incomplete. If you like I will send you some photo's and more info. Paul normanbywaite wrote: >Thanks Paul, >I think i'll just get a bank draft for CDN$30 and mail it to him with >a note. >Your project sounds interesting, and i'd love to correspond about it. >Got any photos? I presume you've read "Voyage for madmen", but have >you read "A world of My Own" by Robin Knox-Johnson? Great looking >boat, the Tahiti ketch. Are you converting it to a junk schooner? >Forward mast slanted forward? >Cheers, >Matt > > > | 5102|5096|2004-08-19 10:29:46|Paul Faulkner|Re: paint system|I didn't build a Swain, but built another steel 29 footer. I live in AZ, so it's hot like FLA. My boat is still not finished and has not been in the water. Pay VERY careful attention to the temperature or humidity limitations (and maximum recoat times)on whatever paint you use. I used Devoe Bar Rust 235. It has a maximum application temperature of 80 degrees (I think). I did some of my painting at night and some in the morning. While the air temperature might have been 80 degrees, the temp of the hull in the sun was likely much higher. I ended up with inter layer paint delamination. I have since scraped, sandblasted, power washed, used their special solvent, and repainted (paying close attention to the temps) the delaminating areas and am very happy with the results. Maximum recoat times can be affected by high temperatures. I want to be clear that this was my fault and not something wrong with Devoe paint. I bought a little infrared temperature guage from Sears for about $50. I aim it at the hull and it tells me the temp. On a day when it was 90 degrees out, the surface of my (white) hull was 125 degrees in the sun. Blasted steel would likely be hotter. The paint cost $40-45 per gallon and a gallon would cover my entire boat once. Blasting really sucks. You want to make sure that you get the paint right the first time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5103|5096|2004-08-19 11:35:23|knutfg|Re: paint system|Carl, I understand from your email that you are in Florida somewhere? I am in Miami and would love to get a look at the 36' hull and may be get a chance to discuss your project (for my consideration of doing the same). It sounds very tempting to have the chance in FL rather than having to go to BC!! Knut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" wrote: > hello all > > well it's getting near time to blast and paint. any one in the us > (south east maybe) done any painting on a steel swain recently. i > need a low cost system to go on after i sandblast. i'm in FL so > couldn't get pre-primed. any hint/tips suggestions or warning are > welcome. > > may have a line on some surplus navy somethin or other in 55 gal > drums haha. should i bother looking into it or avoid it ? > > carl > 36' steel swain in progress > > > thrilled to see alex's progress, congratulations. | 5104|4674|2004-08-19 12:23:22|Steve Rankin|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Greg I don't often get worked up like this, but you have to be the most thick skinned, unmitigated pompous ass-hole I have the displeasure of reading. Fortunately I can put you on the junk list along with the others flogging Viagra and such. Goodbye and good ridance! Steve ge@... wrote: > Criminal Code 251. Operation of an unseaworthy vessel. Imprisonment not exceeding 5 years. In Brent's latest email he has recognized that the attachments should be stronger, confirming what I have been saying. Stronger attachments are significant development for origami. I am very pleased with the result. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: fmichael graham > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! > > > Greg: > 1) Vessel seaworthiness falls under the Canada Shipping Act and is handled by Ship Safety. > 2) Re-read your posts and try to say this with a straight face. > 3) Bullshit. You do it time & time again. Fortunately, my experience in the Canadian Coast Guard & steel industry allow me to smell you coming. Sadly, a member who knows little may be "taken in" by you. > 4) Here we go again. O.K., Greg, list the names of those who have reported structural failures to you because, personally, I don't believe you. > > I'm sick of hearing your fear-mongering approach to discussions in this group. You're not an engineer, marine or otherwise, nor are you the sole expert on sailing off-shore. Re-read your post regarding all of the friends that you have lost off-shore. Seems accusatory & alarmist to me. > > I would suggest that your great concern for keel attachments is less important to the amateur builder than any recommendation that they build with aluminum. > > And, finally, while Alex, et al, may believe that your vacation posting was an honest mistake, I don't buy it for a second. No, I don't plan on reading your future posts - if I want advertising, I'll turn on the T.V.. > > Sincerely, > Mike Graham > > ge@... wrote: > 1) Vessel seaworthiness comes under the criminal code in Canada. > > 2)I'm not criticizing or knocking anyone personally. > > 3) There is nothing personal in this. My aim is not to discredit anyone. > > 4)I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kbmc2q/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092847804/A=2181364/R=0/id=flashurl/SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_263_060804.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kbmc2q/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092847804/A=2181364/R=1/id=altimgurl/SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_060804.jpg";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5105|5096|2004-08-19 12:35:43|carlmbentley|Re: paint system|i'm in okeechobee, 2 hours or so north of you and a tad west by car :) a little far if your walking and too far inland to row. -carl --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > Carl, I understand from your email that you are in Florida somewhere? > > I am in Miami and would love to get a look at the 36' hull and may > be get a chance to discuss your project (for my consideration of > doing the same). It sounds very tempting to have the chance in FL > rather than having to go to BC!! > > Knut | 5106|4674|2004-08-19 12:55:37|Michael Casling|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|I am not too crazy about his style either. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Rankin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! Greg I don't often get worked up like this, but you have to be the most thick skinned, unmitigated pompous ass-hole I have the displeasure of reading. Fortunately I can put you on the junk list along with the others flogging Viagra and such. Goodbye and good ridance! Steve ge@... wrote: > Criminal Code 251. Operation of an unseaworthy vessel. Imprisonment not exceeding 5 years. In Brent's latest email he has recognized that the attachments should be stronger, confirming what I have been saying. Stronger attachments are significant development for origami. I am very pleased with the result. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: fmichael graham > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! > > > Greg: > 1) Vessel seaworthiness falls under the Canada Shipping Act and is handled by Ship Safety. > 2) Re-read your posts and try to say this with a straight face. > 3) Bullshit. You do it time & time again. Fortunately, my experience in the Canadian Coast Guard & steel industry allow me to smell you coming. Sadly, a member who knows little may be "taken in" by you. > 4) Here we go again. O.K., Greg, list the names of those who have reported structural failures to you because, personally, I don't believe you. > > I'm sick of hearing your fear-mongering approach to discussions in this group. You're not an engineer, marine or otherwise, nor are you the sole expert on sailing off-shore. Re-read your post regarding all of the friends that you have lost off-shore. Seems accusatory & alarmist to me. > > I would suggest that your great concern for keel attachments is less important to the amateur builder than any recommendation that they build with aluminum. > > And, finally, while Alex, et al, may believe that your vacation posting was an honest mistake, I don't buy it for a second. No, I don't plan on reading your future posts - if I want advertising, I'll turn on the T.V.. > > Sincerely, > Mike Graham > > ge@... wrote: > 1) Vessel seaworthiness comes under the criminal code in Canada. > > 2)I'm not criticizing or knocking anyone personally. > > 3) There is nothing personal in this. My aim is not to discredit anyone. > > 4)I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5107|5044|2004-08-19 13:28:11|Richard Till|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Brent, agreed. rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum?? >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:58:25 -0000 > >Altho I prefer the toughness, resistance to metal fatigue and >corrosion and the ability to use a wider range of antifouling >paints , of a steel hull, if I were much richer ,and concerned about >weight, I'd consider a steel hull and sidedecks with an aluminium >cabin, wheelhouse and possibly cockpit. As the hulldeck joint takes >the entire twisting load on a hull ,I'd avoid having the transition >in materials there. There are no such loads on the deck-cabinside >joint.Corrosion is easier to deal with and keep track of above the >decks. > Brent Swain > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > My feeling is that steel is close to the perfect material for > > sailboats 36' and more since the weight of the material becomes >less > > important for the larger designs. > > > > However, the 26' and may be also the 31' would probably benefit > > substantially from using aluminum in the sense that the capacity to > > carry supplies would be better. It should also allow relatively >more > > weight in the keel and less in the hull and deck for the same total > > displacement, giving a boat with less heel for a given wind-load. > > > > I also have in mind that for a smaller hull, the difference in > > material cost for hull/deck between steel and aluminum cannot be >too > > much. At the same time I would expect the second hand value of an > > aluminum yacht to be quite a bit better than for steel, thus >quickle > > more than compensating the intial cost difference. > > > > I would very much like to hear other views about this subject. May > > be someone has already done the homework on this, built a boat and > > is in the position to give specific and well founded opinions? Any > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way around? > _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5108|5044|2004-08-19 13:33:56|Richard Till|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Brent, work done in the UK has shown that there is no significant advantage to corten below the waterline. It is unsuitable for welding boats in thickness under 1/4" due to excess distortion. rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum?? >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:21:12 -0000 > >In the 70's I was moored off a shipyard in Auckland where they had >been building steel tugs for decades. When I asked the foreman about >corten he said that they had tried it and found that it was far more >trouble and expense than it was worth. Distortion was much greater, >and there was electrolysis between the welds and the corten. As it >was only available in plate and not in any other shapes , there was >electrolysis between other shapes and the plate. They went back to >common mild steel as there was no good reason not to. > When I'm not cruising offshore , the bottom of my twin keels tend to >look like freshly sandblasted steel for years at a time ,and I've had >no corrosion problems there . The zincs have always kept them shiny >and rust free. >Brent > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Personaly I would also ask for a quotation to build the hull > > in Corten or Kortensteel , especialy if the boat will sitt on the > > beach with each tide . Why ? Any protection as primers , paints > > & antifouling will suffer so some surface will be unprotected > > steel or aluminum , the best steel ( you could consider it > > self-protecting ) to avoid rust is Corten or Korten . > > The Dutch use is often , some viaducts for trafic and even > > some real pretty well engineered buildings stand sinds more > > than 20 years totaly unprotected and still do the job they > > where designed for with strenght and elegance. > > Corten or Korten is a bit harder to form , cause its a bit stiffer > > I havent seen the plans but with the same scantlings you > > can expect higher strenght , so it sure could be interesting > > to run both hulls through the computer and see if any > > weightsavings can be considered , eventualy the yard > > could even choose for a VdS ( only vertical stiffeners or webs) > > but you sure should consult the designer . > > Insurance sure would be cheaper if you build to classification > > scantlings , and a ceritification is a best price guarantee for > > any second hand boat offered for sale :-) > > You could start with a 26' and want a 31' later . > > A Belgian member is seriously considering having one build:-) > > Who better to trade in , than the builder ? > > Just some thoughts and wondering > > Ben > > > > > > > I would very much like to hear other views about this > > subject. > > > May > > > > > be someone has already done the homework on this, built > > a boat > > > and > > > > > is in the position to give specific and well founded > > opinions? > > > Any > > > > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way > > around? > _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft� SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5109|3915|2004-08-19 13:55:17|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel, the almost Origami dory|I built a couple of ply run-abouts that sound very similar. For shoal draft you could use a 3 panel origami hull. There was a conventionally built, 3 panel, 65' Lazy Bones, originally done for the rivers in Oz, that successfully cruised offshore. In smaller sizes pounding might be a concern. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum Vs. Steel, the almost Origami dory Oh one other very cool point about this hull, If I did my calculations right, at 46' she would draw just about 24", with a fuel loading for coastal cruising, on longer cruises it would be more, but not much. Regards phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5110|5090|2004-08-19 13:55:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|As I have noted previously, I was in cruising in Thailand when the JM50 was built. I believe Ron was laid up with a broken leg. I didn't hear the boat had been built until months later. If Ken or Jean Marc promote their skeg/rudder on this site I will be happy to ask them to justify it. From reports I have received it has performed flawlessly in extreme conditions. When I hear people talk about fear mongering I think of someone that has little or no offshore experience - likely none with women and children aboard. Anyone that ventures an opinion about what is required to go offshore should tell the group in detail what experience they have offshore. Where have you gone? How long did you go? What sort of boat? Who was aboard? Were you in command? How did you pay your way? Brent and I have sufficient offshore experience that I would consider us experts. We often differ in opinion because we have different experiences. His experience is primarily single handing, mine is primarily cruising with a family. There are vastly different priorities and requirements involved. This doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just different. Look at what you plan to do and use your own judgment. As Colin rightly noted the most important ingredient in an offshore boat is the nut at the end of the tiller. Offshore is rarely about the boat, it is about your mental attitude, stamina, and preparation. You may have noticed that neither Brent or I take anyone's assurance that something is safe at face value. I believe Brent answered the question of failures in his reply "stress risers". If you are unclear on this why not ask him for details? The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the failures, not the successes, that are meaningful. This is why destructive testing is widely used in industry. Apologies in advance if I missed a previous posting. It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of people planning to go offshore, no one has thought to ask about failures. This speaks volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness to ask the hard questions, the mental toughness required to succeed offshore. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: rockrothwell@... Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' Sadly, our holidays from Greg are over! Hey Greg, How about a little reality? To quote YOU from as far back as yesterday, Aug 17: A> "I'm not sure of any prohibition against asking for a reply to an e-mail. you may not get one but you certianly have the right to ask" and B> "I have received other reports of structural failures in origami boats" RE: 'A' above 1. in that case why didn't you answer the questions I put to you directly on calling you on your bullshit before your (our!) holiday. Specifically aa> the monstrosity you designed with the twin rudders and no skegs you built (but aparently had noting to do with the design of the rudders) if you are such a professional, why did you build it or have anythign to do with it???????????? bb> How do you think that thing would fare in the same conditions Brentboats have PROVEN to numerous times (hmmm, no skeg, high profile rudders, run ashore & pounded.... I wonder?) cc> so dont you think that perhaps Brent deserves an apology? RE: 'B" above 1. this would be to say that you had actually recieved several (meaning literally, more than 2) reports of specific structural failures. I wonder if you can substantiate this? Strange, Brent has not just witnesses to one mishap, but a number of them. and these are not idle witnesses, but the people who own and built the boats. Can you name names of these people, the names of their boats and their contact information so your claims can be substantiated? I wonder... and to stave off any possible wiggle room, if it were me who had trusted a man enough to pay for and build his design and then had a major structural failure such as you have fearmongeringly suggested, I wouldn't mind being contacted by strangers inquiring about it, I would invite such enquiries as I would want the WORLD to know! I'm sure that Mike Graham and I are not the only ones who are sick of your postings. I have no right to demand a responce, but I do request one. If however, you do not deem it necceary, might I suggest that you change your moniker to "Rod, first initial .................." your next posting I shall read, after that I will take your advice and skip your postings. (or is it possible to have your messages blocked as Alex was able to do with your auto postings during our holidays?) Have a nice day Shane Rothwell ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5111|5044|2004-08-19 17:25:37|fmichael graham|Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum??|Brent/RT: That's pretty valuable info. about Corten. One of the other members had asked why I didn't just go with Corten when I was asking for experiences/suggestions on using steel alloy w/some nickel & chromium. Any thoughts? (Chief concern being, of course, $$$). Thanks, Mike Brent, work done in the UK has shown that there is no significant advantage to corten below the waterline. It is unsuitable for welding boats in thickness under 1/4" due to excess distortion. rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 and 31 feet, steel or aluminum?? >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:21:12 -0000 > >In the 70's I was moored off a shipyard in Auckland where they had >been building steel tugs for decades. When I asked the foreman about >corten he said that they had tried it and found that it was far more >trouble and expense than it was worth. Distortion was much greater, >and there was electrolysis between the welds and the corten. As it >was only available in plate and not in any other shapes , there was >electrolysis between other shapes and the plate. They went back to >common mild steel as there was no good reason not to. > When I'm not cruising offshore , the bottom of my twin keels tend to >look like freshly sandblasted steel for years at a time ,and I've had >no corrosion problems there . The zincs have always kept them shiny >and rust free. >Brent > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Personaly I would also ask for a quotation to build the hull > > in Corten or Kortensteel , especialy if the boat will sitt on the > > beach with each tide . Why ? Any protection as primers , paints > > & antifouling will suffer so some surface will be unprotected > > steel or aluminum , the best steel ( you could consider it > > self-protecting ) to avoid rust is Corten or Korten . > > The Dutch use is often , some viaducts for trafic and even > > some real pretty well engineered buildings stand sinds more > > than 20 years totaly unprotected and still do the job they > > where designed for with strenght and elegance. > > Corten or Korten is a bit harder to form , cause its a bit stiffer > > I havent seen the plans but with the same scantlings you > > can expect higher strenght , so it sure could be interesting > > to run both hulls through the computer and see if any > > weightsavings can be considered , eventualy the yard > > could even choose for a VdS ( only vertical stiffeners or webs) > > but you sure should consult the designer . > > Insurance sure would be cheaper if you build to classification > > scantlings , and a ceritification is a best price guarantee for > > any second hand boat offered for sale :-) > > You could start with a 26' and want a 31' later . > > A Belgian member is seriously considering having one build:-) > > Who better to trade in , than the builder ? > > Just some thoughts and wondering > > Ben > > > > > > > I would very much like to hear other views about this > > subject. > > > May > > > > > be someone has already done the homework on this, built > > a boat > > > and > > > > > is in the position to give specific and well founded > > opinions? > > > Any > > > > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite way > > around? > _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft� SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5112|5090|2004-08-19 18:51:18|fmichael graham|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|(Sigh!) He just doesn't get it. 1) If I had a concern with Brent's designs, I would discuss it with Brent & others "in the know". If I had a suggestion for improving on a skeg attachment - as an example - I would throw my idea out there & see what others thought. Perhaps, if I was an "expert", I might be more forceful in my persuasion. Sailing offshore may give one thoughts for improving on a boat's design but it doesn't make one an "expert", not even close. Now, a guy who has built a number of boats & sailed those boats offshore, would have a lot to offer. Why? Because that person will sit in port after a challenging voyage and think about where his/her boat shone and where it fell short. If that person found a shortfall, he/she would, no doubt, correct the weakness when he/she built the next boat. Sure, Greg, if you want to have a "pissing contest", list your "credentials", and we will see if you are the great offshore "guru" that you purport to be. Yes, if it's important, I, for one, will respond in kind. While we're at it, how about listing your credentials pertaining to aluminum boat fabrication. It would be interesting to see if your skills match your mouth in this regard. Yes, I, for one, will respond in kind. 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) 3)Oh well, I guess the rest of us are just a bunch of dumb wannabe's. Or, maybe, some of us aren't interested in going offshore, & many of us would rather approach concerns in a more adult manner than innuendos & confrontation. Is this the way Greg is in everyday life? A "know it all", constantly needing to affirm his worth by defaming others? What a way to go through life. "Thank God" I only need to tolerate him in one small aspect of my life. Can you imagine working with this guy? Or, worse yet, going sailing with him? I wonder, does he teach Col. Reg.s to everyone who sails with him, finishing with written & practical tests before allowing crew to "single up"? When in a close quarters situation with another vessel does he get on the radio & dictate collision regs, rather than discuss intentions? Yeah, I've already had my fill of "experts" in life. EXPERT: "X" - an unknown quantity "Spurt" - a drip under pressure. OK, who's next.LOL. Regards, Mike Graham P.S. How come when I look at Greg's website photos, he's not wearing a mask or a cape? ge@... wrote: 1)When I hear people talk about fear mongering I think of someone that has little or no offshore experience. 2)The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the failures, not the successes, that are meaningful. This is why destructive testing is widely used in industry. 3)It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of people planning to go offshore, no one has thought to ask about failures. This speaks volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness to ask the hard questions, the mental toughness required to succeed offshore. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5113|5090|2004-08-19 19:36:32|Paul Cotter|Rigging sizes for BS26|Can we please get back to discussing boats? I noticed a fairly local boat shop went out of business and the auction is this coming weekend. From some of the pictures on the web, it looked as though there might be spools of stainless wire going on the block. I don’t know much about rigging, but I am trying to jump on anything that looks reasonable for a BS 26. Any recommendations for size for this vessel? If I remember correctly, Brent gives some specs for galvanized (and perhaps I will pick up some of that if there is some at the auction), but I don’t recall if he says anything about stainless. I’ll try to dig up his book (its here someplace). Cheers and Thanks Paul -----Original Message----- From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@...] Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' (Sigh!) He just doesn't get it. 1) If I had a concern with Brent's designs, I would discuss it with Brent & others "in the know". If I had a suggestion for improving on a skeg attachment - as an example - I would throw my idea out there & see what others thought. Perhaps, if I was an "expert", I might be more forceful in my persuasion. Sailing offshore may give one thoughts for improving on a boat's design but it doesn't make one an "expert", not even close. Now, a guy who has built a number of boats & sailed those boats offshore, would have a lot to offer. Why? Because that person will sit in port after a challenging voyage and think about where his/her boat shone and where it fell short. If that person found a shortfall, he/she would, no doubt, correct the weakness when he/she built the next boat. Sure, Greg, if you want to have a "pissing contest", list your "credentials", and we will see if you are the great offshore "guru" that you purport to be. Yes, if it's important, I, for one, will respond in kind. While we're at it, how about listing your credentials pertaining to aluminum boat fabrication. It would be interesting to see if your skills match your mouth in this regard. Yes, I, for one, will respond in kind. 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) 3)Oh well, I guess the rest of us are just a bunch of dumb wannabe's. Or, maybe, some of us aren't interested in going offshore, & many of us would rather approach concerns in a more adult manner than innuendos & confrontation. Is this the way Greg is in everyday life? A "know it all", constantly needing to affirm his worth by defaming others? What a way to go through life. "Thank God" I only need to tolerate him in one small aspect of my life. Can you imagine working with this guy? Or, worse yet, going sailing with him? I wonder, does he teach Col. Reg.s to everyone who sails with him, finishing with written & practical tests before allowing crew to "single up"? When in a close quarters situation with another vessel does he get on the radio & dictate collision regs, rather than discuss intentions? Yeah, I've already had my fill of "experts" in life. EXPERT: "X" - an unknown quantity "Spurt" - a drip under pressure. OK, who's next.LOL. Regards, Mike Graham P.S. How come when I look at Greg's website photos, he's not wearing a mask or a cape? ge@... wrote: 1)When I hear people talk about fear mongering I think of someone that has little or no offshore experience. 2)The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the failures, not the successes, that are meaningful. This is why destructive testing is widely used in industry. 3)It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of people planning to go offshore, no one has thought to ask about failures. This speaks volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness to ask the hard questions, the mental toughness required to succeed offshore. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5114|5114|2004-08-19 20:36:40|silascrosby|Failures and Accidents|Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of is that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a number of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in Suva,Fiji I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month old son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to BC. I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between NZ and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container or fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same harbour but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the engine beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded flange. That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was motoring into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and Monica). At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and hit an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed the keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell it was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything except warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit a rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard keel and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was on the floor,jam-side down. I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or others. I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he managed to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami twin keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and Allison spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We were sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas at the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping along.Excellent sailing.| 5115|5114|2004-08-19 22:28:23|Mike|Re: Failures and Accidents|That... was a "good read". Thanks for that. I wish I were out sailing, right now. Regards, Mike| 5116|5090|2004-08-20 18:35:02|brentswain38|Re: Rigging sizes for BS26|Most people go for 1/4 inch rigging on the 26 footer for offshore cruising.Galvanized 1X7 has nearly the same tensile strength when new and much more when old ,as it's less prone to metal fatigue than stainless.You could get by with 3/16th but that would'nt leave much of a safety margin for metal fatigue. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Can we please get back to discussing boats? > > I noticed a fairly local boat shop went out of business and the auction > is this coming weekend. From some of the pictures on the web, it looked > as though there might be spools of stainless wire going on the block. I > don't know much about rigging, but I am trying to jump on anything that > looks reasonable for a BS 26. Any recommendations for size for this > vessel? If I remember correctly, Brent gives some specs for galvanized > (and perhaps I will pick up some of that if there is some at the > auction), but I don't recall if he says anything about stainless. I'll > try to dig up his book (its here someplace). > > Cheers and Thanks > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@y...] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:51 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > (Sigh!) > He just doesn't get it. > > 1) If I had a concern with Brent's designs, I would discuss it with > Brent & others "in the know". If I had a suggestion for improving on a > skeg attachment - as an example - I would throw my idea out there & see > what others thought. Perhaps, if I was an "expert", I might be more > forceful in my persuasion. Sailing offshore may give one thoughts for > improving on a boat's design but it doesn't make one an "expert", not > even close. Now, a guy who has built a number of boats & sailed those > boats offshore, would have a lot to offer. Why? Because that person will > sit in port after a challenging voyage and think about where his/her > boat shone and where it fell short. If that person found a shortfall, > he/she would, no doubt, correct the weakness when he/she built the next > boat. > Sure, Greg, if you want to have a "pissing contest", list your > "credentials", and we will see if you are the great offshore "guru" that > you purport to be. Yes, if it's important, I, for one, will respond in > kind. While we're at it, how about listing your credentials pertaining > to aluminum boat fabrication. It would be interesting to see if your > skills match your mouth in this regard. Yes, I, for one, will respond in > kind. > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue > and destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I > spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive > testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of > determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > 3)Oh well, I guess the rest of us are just a bunch of dumb wannabe's. > Or, maybe, some of us aren't interested in going offshore, & many of us > would rather approach concerns in a more adult manner than innuendos & > confrontation. > > Is this the way Greg is in everyday life? A "know it all", constantly > needing to affirm his worth by defaming others? What a way to go through > life. "Thank God" I only need to tolerate him in one small aspect of my > life. Can you imagine working with this guy? Or, worse yet, going > sailing with him? I wonder, does he teach Col. Reg.s to everyone who > sails with him, finishing with written & practical tests before allowing > crew to "single up"? When in a close quarters situation with another > vessel does he get on the radio & dictate collision regs, rather than > discuss intentions? Yeah, I've already had my fill of "experts" in life. > EXPERT: "X" - an unknown quantity "Spurt" - a drip under pressure. > OK, who's next.LOL. > Regards, > Mike Graham > P.S. How come when I look at Greg's website photos, he's not wearing a > mask or a cape? > > ge@e... wrote: > > > 1)When I hear people talk about fear mongering I think of someone that > has little or no offshore experience. > > 2)The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the failures, not the > successes, that are meaningful. This is why destructive testing is > widely used in industry. > > 3)It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of people planning to > go offshore, no one has thought to ask about failures. This speaks > volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness to ask the hard > questions, the mental toughness required to succeed offshore. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= 13 > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002> > > > 4.jpg> > > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5117|5097|2004-08-20 18:42:43|brentswain38|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Send me some Auusie cash $20 for the book and $10 for airmail postage . The exchange rate is too close to worry about these days . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Hi Folks, > I've been lurking around this group for about a week, and would love > to read Brent Swain's book. > I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I can > get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how much. > I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the > last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere > it took 16 weeks! > I'm most interested in smaller boats. I first became aware of this > discussion group from a post on a microcruising yahoo group. > What i REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, > but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section > of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort > of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, > unstayed mast. I realize that a flush deck would mean less headroom, > but i'd hope to have 8"-10" higher topsides, and portholes in the > topsides. > I'd love to hear some opinions about my preferences and their > workability from those who've built in steel. > As you can probably guess, my daydreaming is still in its infancy, > and you folks (judging from the posts & replies) sound like you know > what you're talking about - unlike myself. > I'm about a year off beginning to build - i still have a little cedar > racing dinghy to finish restoring (LOTS of sanding) before i can get > into what i really want to build. > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, > Australia | 5118|5090|2004-08-20 18:52:15|brentswain38|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|I have little doubt that the Sleavin family , who were all but one , wiped out ,when hit by a freighter just north of New Zealand , would have all survived if they had been in a metal boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > As I have noted previously, I was in cruising in Thailand when the JM50 was built. I believe Ron was laid up with a broken leg. I didn't hear the boat had been built until months later. If Ken or Jean Marc promote their skeg/rudder on this site I will be happy to ask them to justify it. From reports I have received it has performed flawlessly in extreme conditions. > > When I hear people talk about fear mongering I think of someone that has little or no offshore experience - likely none with women and children aboard. Anyone that ventures an opinion about what is required to go offshore should tell the group in detail what experience they have offshore. Where have you gone? How long did you go? What sort of boat? Who was aboard? Were you in command? How did you pay your way? > > Brent and I have sufficient offshore experience that I would consider us experts. We often differ in opinion because we have different experiences. His experience is primarily single handing, mine is primarily cruising with a family. There are vastly different priorities and requirements involved. This doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just different. Look at what you plan to do and use your own judgment. > > As Colin rightly noted the most important ingredient in an offshore boat is the nut at the end of the tiller. Offshore is rarely about the boat, it is about your mental attitude, stamina, and preparation. You may have noticed that neither Brent or I take anyone's assurance that something is safe at face value. I believe Brent answered the question of failures in his reply "stress risers". If you are unclear on this why not ask him for details? > > The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the failures, not the successes, that are meaningful. This is why destructive testing is widely used in industry. Apologies in advance if I missed a previous posting. It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of people planning to go offshore, no one has thought to ask about failures. This speaks volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness to ask the hard questions, the mental toughness required to succeed offshore. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: rockrothwell@y... > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:15 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > > Sadly, our holidays from Greg are over! > > Hey Greg, > > How about a little reality? > > To quote YOU from as far back as yesterday, Aug 17: > > A> "I'm not sure of any prohibition against asking for > a reply to an e-mail. you may not get one but you > certianly have the right to ask" > > and > > B> "I have received other reports of structural > failures in origami boats" > > RE: 'A' above > 1. in that case why didn't you answer the questions I > put to you directly on calling you on your bullshit > before your (our!) holiday. Specifically > aa> the monstrosity you designed with the twin rudders > and no skegs you built (but aparently had noting to do > with the design of the rudders) if you are such a > professional, why did you build it or have anythign to > do with it???????????? > bb> How do you think that thing would fare in the same > conditions Brentboats have PROVEN to numerous times > (hmmm, no skeg, high profile rudders, run ashore & > pounded.... I wonder?) > cc> so dont you think that perhaps Brent deserves an > apology? > > RE: 'B" above > 1. this would be to say that you had actually recieved > several (meaning literally, more than 2) reports of > specific structural failures. I wonder if you can > substantiate this? Strange, Brent has not just > witnesses to one mishap, but a number of them. and > these are not idle witnesses, but the people who own > and built the boats. Can you name names of these > people, the names of their boats and their contact > information so your claims can be substantiated? I > wonder... and to stave off any possible wiggle room, > if it were me who had trusted a man enough to pay for > and build his design and then had a major structural > failure such as you have fearmongeringly suggested, I > wouldn't mind being contacted by strangers inquiring > about it, I would invite such enquiries as I would > want the WORLD to know! > > I'm sure that Mike Graham and I are not the only ones > who are sick of your postings. > > I have no right to demand a responce, but I do request > one. If however, you do not deem it necceary, might I > suggest that you change your moniker to "Rod, first > initial .................." > > your next posting I shall read, after that I will take > your advice and skip your postings. (or is it possible > to have your messages blocked as Alex was able to do > with your auto postings during our holidays?) > > Have a nice day > > Shane Rothwell > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5119|5097|2004-08-20 23:30:36|Ben Tucker|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Hi Matt I live in tasmania, and got brents book sent to me, I can't remember how long it took but it was very quick (less than 10 days?). The book is simple and has some fantastic tips, I should have just got $can and sent it as the money order cost me nearly as much as the book! I paid $10 extra for postage. Your ideas for a small junk rigged BS sounds neat, have a look at mcnaughtons coin and silver gull series of designs at http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/stockplans.htm good to hear of someone else from down under on the site, If your over in tassie give me a yell. I helped build a 29 foot steel Tom Thumb with raised topsides and a gaff rig, originaly we were going to put a junk rig on her but Adrain decided to go with Gaff in the end. She sails really well but may be a tad tender with the three mm decks (I like Gerds 2mm idea). The raised topsides amidships is actually quite nice to work on (athough havn't tried it in a rough sea yet) and gives an enormous amount of space below. My old folkboat was great for living aboard but I always wanted to give her raised topsides to increase the siting room below. Also look at Chuck Paines "Francis" with the flush deck and sitting headroom. If you only go for sitting headroom make sure you plan a nice sheltered cockpit with a good hatch and spray dodger or something so when it rains at least you can stand up somewhere and stay dry!! Reiger (the folkboat) had a dodger with a flap at the back like a tents vestible that kept the rain and spray out even with the wind from astern so the hatch stayed open most of the time. Cheers Ben| 5120|5090|2004-08-20 23:31:00|David K McComber|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to destruction sub assembles several times a shift. David McComber d.mccomber@... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5121|5121|2004-08-20 23:31:42|Ben Tucker|sheerline and flare|Hi guys Looking at alot of the photos of the BS designs it almost seems that there is abit of variation in the sweep of the sheer, this may just be an effect of the angle (ie looking from below at a hull out of the water always flattens the sheer). Also the bows seem slightly less spoonshaped on some? Is it just my eyes or is there some scope with a BS to slightly tweak the shape, Ie spreading the topside slightly to give more sheer and flare? It also dawned on me juring all my model making that my origami hulls alway seem to come out untwisted and symetrical dispite blunt scissors and inaccurate cutting and taping, whereas all the van der Stat type made with seperate panels no matter how accurate I am with the cutting and taping the hulls are always twisted! maybe this could be a problem with the idea of gregs using multiple shells? By the way thank you greg for the info at http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm This really shows well whats going on and how I need to reinforce my skeg. I think that you been talking to the converted, try Bruce Roberts if you really want to improve safety at sea!:-) Cheers Ben| 5122|5090|2004-08-20 23:43:06|aaron riis|Re: Rigging sizes for BS26|Paul, use 1/4 inch galvanized one by seven wire regards, Aaron --- Paul Cotter wrote: > Can we please get back to discussing boats? > > I noticed a fairly local boat shop went out of > business and the auction > is this coming weekend. From some of the pictures on > the web, it looked > as though there might be spools of stainless wire > going on the block. I > don�t know much about rigging, but I am trying to > jump on anything that > looks reasonable for a BS 26. Any recommendations > for size for this > vessel? If I remember correctly, Brent gives some > specs for galvanized > (and perhaps I will pick up some of that if there is > some at the > auction), but I don�t recall if he says anything > about stainless. I�ll > try to dig up his book (its here someplace). > > Cheers and Thanks > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@...] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:51 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > (Sigh!) > He just doesn't get it. > > 1) If I had a concern with Brent's designs, I would > discuss it with > Brent & others "in the know". If I had a suggestion > for improving on a > skeg attachment - as an example - I would throw my > idea out there & see > what others thought. Perhaps, if I was an "expert", > I might be more > forceful in my persuasion. Sailing offshore may give > one thoughts for > improving on a boat's design but it doesn't make one > an "expert", not > even close. Now, a guy who has built a number of > boats & sailed those > boats offshore, would have a lot to offer. Why? > Because that person will > sit in port after a challenging voyage and think > about where his/her > boat shone and where it fell short. If that person > found a shortfall, > he/she would, no doubt, correct the weakness when > he/she built the next > boat. > Sure, Greg, if you want to have a "pissing contest", > list your > "credentials", and we will see if you are the great > offshore "guru" that > you purport to be. Yes, if it's important, I, for > one, will respond in > kind. While we're at it, how about listing your > credentials pertaining > to aluminum boat fabrication. It would be > interesting to see if your > skills match your mouth in this regard. Yes, I, for > one, will respond in > kind. > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the > tie-in between fatigue > and destructive testing and which "industry" you are > refering to. I > spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't > recall destructive > testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the > purpose of > determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > 3)Oh well, I guess the rest of us are just a bunch > of dumb wannabe's. > Or, maybe, some of us aren't interested in going > offshore, & many of us > would rather approach concerns in a more adult > manner than innuendos & > confrontation. > > Is this the way Greg is in everyday life? A "know it > all", constantly > needing to affirm his worth by defaming others? What > a way to go through > life. "Thank God" I only need to tolerate him in one > small aspect of my > life. Can you imagine working with this guy? Or, > worse yet, going > sailing with him? I wonder, does he teach Col. Reg.s > to everyone who > sails with him, finishing with written & practical > tests before allowing > crew to "single up"? When in a close quarters > situation with another > vessel does he get on the radio & dictate collision > regs, rather than > discuss intentions? Yeah, I've already had my fill > of "experts" in life. > EXPERT: "X" - an unknown quantity "Spurt" - a > drip under pressure. > OK, who's next.LOL. > Regards, > Mike Graham > P.S. How come when I look at Greg's website photos, > he's not wearing a > mask or a cape? > > ge@... wrote: > > > 1)When I hear people talk about fear mongering I > think of someone that > has little or no offshore experience. > > 2)The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the > failures, not the > successes, that are meaningful. This is why > destructive testing is > widely used in industry. > > 3)It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of > people planning to > go offshore, no one has thought to ask about > failures. This speaks > volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness > to ask the hard > questions, the mental toughness required to succeed > offshore. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002> > > > 4.jpg> > > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an > email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 5123|5090|2004-08-20 23:43:39|Paul Cotter|Re: Rigging sizes for BS26|Thanks Brent! -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 2:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Rigging sizes for BS26 Most people go for 1/4 inch rigging on the 26 footer for offshore cruising.Galvanized 1X7 has nearly the same tensile strength when new and much more when old ,as it's less prone to metal fatigue than stainless.You could get by with 3/16th but that would'nt leave much of a safety margin for metal fatigue. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Can we please get back to discussing boats? > > I noticed a fairly local boat shop went out of business and the auction > is this coming weekend. From some of the pictures on the web, it looked > as though there might be spools of stainless wire going on the block. I > don't know much about rigging, but I am trying to jump on anything that > looks reasonable for a BS 26. Any recommendations for size for this > vessel? If I remember correctly, Brent gives some specs for galvanized > (and perhaps I will pick up some of that if there is some at the > auction), but I don't recall if he says anything about stainless. I'll > try to dig up his book (its here someplace). > > Cheers and Thanks > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@y...] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:51 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > (Sigh!) > He just doesn't get it. > > 1) If I had a concern with Brent's designs, I would discuss it with > Brent & others "in the know". If I had a suggestion for improving on a > skeg attachment - as an example - I would throw my idea out there & see > what others thought. Perhaps, if I was an "expert", I might be more > forceful in my persuasion. Sailing offshore may give one thoughts for > improving on a boat's design but it doesn't make one an "expert", not > even close. Now, a guy who has built a number of boats & sailed those > boats offshore, would have a lot to offer. Why? Because that person will > sit in port after a challenging voyage and think about where his/her > boat shone and where it fell short. If that person found a shortfall, > he/she would, no doubt, correct the weakness when he/she built the next > boat. > Sure, Greg, if you want to have a "pissing contest", list your > "credentials", and we will see if you are the great offshore "guru" that > you purport to be. Yes, if it's important, I, for one, will respond in > kind. While we're at it, how about listing your credentials pertaining > to aluminum boat fabrication. It would be interesting to see if your > skills match your mouth in this regard. Yes, I, for one, will respond in > kind. > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue > and destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I > spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive > testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of > determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > 3)Oh well, I guess the rest of us are just a bunch of dumb wannabe's. > Or, maybe, some of us aren't interested in going offshore, & many of us > would rather approach concerns in a more adult manner than innuendos & > confrontation. > > Is this the way Greg is in everyday life? A "know it all", constantly > needing to affirm his worth by defaming others? What a way to go through > life. "Thank God" I only need to tolerate him in one small aspect of my > life. Can you imagine working with this guy? Or, worse yet, going > sailing with him? I wonder, does he teach Col. Reg.s to everyone who > sails with him, finishing with written & practical tests before allowing > crew to "single up"? When in a close quarters situation with another > vessel does he get on the radio & dictate collision regs, rather than > discuss intentions? Yeah, I've already had my fill of "experts" in life. > EXPERT: "X" - an unknown quantity "Spurt" - a drip under pressure. > OK, who's next.LOL. > Regards, > Mike Graham > P.S. How come when I look at Greg's website photos, he's not wearing a > mask or a cape? > > ge@e... wrote: > > > 1)When I hear people talk about fear mongering I think of someone that > has little or no offshore experience. > > 2)The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the failures, not the > successes, that are meaningful. This is why destructive testing is > widely used in industry. > > 3)It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of people planning to > go offshore, no one has thought to ask about failures. This speaks > volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness to ask the hard > questions, the mental toughness required to succeed offshore. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= 13 > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002> > > > 4.jpg> > > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5124|5124|2004-08-20 23:43:47|Gerald Niffenegger|Melting lead for keel|I need to melt and place about two ton of lead in the keel. I am thinking about welding up a box with a pipe that runs from the top of the deck down to the keel. As the lead melts it should run down the pipe and into the keel. Question for those of you with lead melting experience. Can you see a flaw in the plan? Gerald| 5125|5124|2004-08-20 23:44:04|Gerald Niffenegger|Melting lead for keel|I need to melt and place about two ton of lead in the keel. I am thinking about welding up a box with a pipe that runs from the top of the deck down to the keel. I plan to heat the box and as the lead melts it should run down the pipe and into the keel. Question for those of you with lead melting experience. Can you see a flaw in the plan? Gerald| 5126|5090|2004-08-20 23:44:30|aaron riis|Re: Rigging sizes for BS26|Paul, use 1/4 inch galvanized, I think It's called one by seven wire, telephone wire. Aaron --- Paul Cotter wrote: > Can we please get back to discussing boats? > > I noticed a fairly local boat shop went out of > business and the auction > is this coming weekend. From some of the pictures on > the web, it looked > as though there might be spools of stainless wire > going on the block. I > don�t know much about rigging, but I am trying to > jump on anything that > looks reasonable for a BS 26. Any recommendations > for size for this > vessel? If I remember correctly, Brent gives some > specs for galvanized > (and perhaps I will pick up some of that if there is > some at the > auction), but I don�t recall if he says anything > about stainless. I�ll > try to dig up his book (its here someplace). > > Cheers and Thanks > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@...] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:51 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > (Sigh!) > He just doesn't get it. > > 1) If I had a concern with Brent's designs, I would > discuss it with > Brent & others "in the know". If I had a suggestion > for improving on a > skeg attachment - as an example - I would throw my > idea out there & see > what others thought. Perhaps, if I was an "expert", > I might be more > forceful in my persuasion. Sailing offshore may give > one thoughts for > improving on a boat's design but it doesn't make one > an "expert", not > even close. Now, a guy who has built a number of > boats & sailed those > boats offshore, would have a lot to offer. Why? > Because that person will > sit in port after a challenging voyage and think > about where his/her > boat shone and where it fell short. If that person > found a shortfall, > he/she would, no doubt, correct the weakness when > he/she built the next > boat. > Sure, Greg, if you want to have a "pissing contest", > list your > "credentials", and we will see if you are the great > offshore "guru" that > you purport to be. Yes, if it's important, I, for > one, will respond in > kind. While we're at it, how about listing your > credentials pertaining > to aluminum boat fabrication. It would be > interesting to see if your > skills match your mouth in this regard. Yes, I, for > one, will respond in > kind. > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the > tie-in between fatigue > and destructive testing and which "industry" you are > refering to. I > spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't > recall destructive > testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the > purpose of > determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > 3)Oh well, I guess the rest of us are just a bunch > of dumb wannabe's. > Or, maybe, some of us aren't interested in going > offshore, & many of us > would rather approach concerns in a more adult > manner than innuendos & > confrontation. > > Is this the way Greg is in everyday life? A "know it > all", constantly > needing to affirm his worth by defaming others? What > a way to go through > life. "Thank God" I only need to tolerate him in one > small aspect of my > life. Can you imagine working with this guy? Or, > worse yet, going > sailing with him? I wonder, does he teach Col. Reg.s > to everyone who > sails with him, finishing with written & practical > tests before allowing > crew to "single up"? When in a close quarters > situation with another > vessel does he get on the radio & dictate collision > regs, rather than > discuss intentions? Yeah, I've already had my fill > of "experts" in life. > EXPERT: "X" - an unknown quantity "Spurt" - a > drip under pressure. > OK, who's next.LOL. > Regards, > Mike Graham > P.S. How come when I look at Greg's website photos, > he's not wearing a > mask or a cape? > > ge@... wrote: > > > 1)When I hear people talk about fear mongering I > think of someone that > has little or no offshore experience. > > 2)The hidden nature of fatigue means that it is the > failures, not the > successes, that are meaningful. This is why > destructive testing is > widely used in industry. > > 3)It is almost unbelievable to me that in a group of > people planning to > go offshore, no one has thought to ask about > failures. This speaks > volumes to the level of preparation, the willingness > to ask the hard > questions, the mental toughness required to succeed > offshore. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002> > > > 4.jpg> > > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an > email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 5127|5090|2004-08-21 15:28:05|Mike|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|David: 1)Have you determined that these are, indeed, unsound fab techniques? I would be interested to know what brought you to this conclusion. There seems to me to be a "lifetime of difference" between concern for a potential problem and Greg's rantings. So far, I have read posts from Greg that would lead a reader to believe that Brent's designs are seriously flawed. I am skeptical as to Greg's ability - based on knowledge(?) and experience(?) - to discern whether there is, indeed, a serious flaw, or not. Anybody can tell us that the sky is falling, few have the skills to make that determination. 2)That's great. You've worked in the auto industry for over 35 years. Is that the industry to which Greg was refering? I assumed he was refering to the metal fabrication industry. As Greg & I live in the same geographical area, I would be surprised to find that a large number of fab. shops in the area perform destructive testing for the purposes of studying fatigue on structures which they are fabricating(though, there would be a higher incidence of testing with aluminum than steel). In fact, I would suggest that that is the domain of a structural engineer. I think that Greg's idea for us to give a clear indication of our individual backgrounds is a good one, because, I don't think that Greg has the education or formal experience to back up - once again - what came across to me as fearmongering. I don't think that you will find many in the "metal fabrication of structures" industry whom are willing to destroy their work several times a shift, though. Can I see a show of hands: Which owners of Swain designed boats are willing to haul their boats & beat the crap out of them, until they are twisted pieces of metal, for the benefit of this group? No one? Apples & oranges, David, apples & oranges. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > >I've worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > | 5128|5090|2004-08-21 15:28:08|Mike|Re: Rigging sizes for BS26|Paul: This is, about the building of a certain design of boat. If I suggest that you use wire with certain parameters & someone posts that if you do it my way, your shrouds, etc., will fail and you'll lose your mast in the middle of a gail, wouldn't you like to know whose suggestion is valid? I would. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Can we please get back to discussing boats? > | 5129|4674|2004-08-21 15:30:34|sae140|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > Greg > I don't often get worked up like this, but you have to be the most thick skinned, unmitigated pompous ass-hole I have the displeasure of reading. Steve Awwh - c'mon Steve - don't be shy - tell 'im what you REALLY think :^) ge@... wrote: > Criminal Code 251. Operation of an unseaworthy vessel. Imprisonment not exceeding 5 years. Are you sure this doesn't refer only to commercial maritime operations ? I don't know too much about the regulations and laws of other countries, but here in the UK the authorities are equally hot (and quite right too, imho) regarding the seaworthiness of ships in UK waters (including those flying foreign flags) and any vessel carrying passengers. Likewise, they are equally hot regarding the qualifications of the crews involved, and the safety gear carried. In marked contrast, a private individual can still go out to sea in a leaky sieve if they are so minded, and take a bible along in lieu of flares, just so long as they do not present a hazard to navigation. This is one of our last cherished freedoms ..... as is sailing without either qualifications or insurance - and interestingly, we have one of the lowest per capita sailing accident rates in the world - so maybe there's a connection ? Anybody fancy taking a stab at defining "seaworthiness" ? Titanic was deemed seaworthy, as were the early Ro-Ro ferries. Loss of life in both cases. Slocum's Liberdade was deemed unseaworthy and he had to sneak the vessel out to sea. It never sank. So what do the authorities know ? Colin| 5130|5095|2004-08-21 15:33:01|sae140|Re: Joing Steel & alloy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Re Paul's question of design & joining steel to alloy. > > My brother in law, Grant Adlington who owns & rebuilt > 'Pacific Coaster" had a professional welder going for > over a year & with the aluminim wheel house the farted > about trying to weld it together with the material you > can weld both steel & alloy to. > > Grant said it was a total waste of time & they used > some bedding compound & bolted the sucker together in > an afternoon > > Shane Caveat - I've never attempted this - but here's one idea to think about: Weld a 2" strip of stainless vertically around the inner deck edge, and fix the aluminium cabin sides onto that, with a strip of solid neoprene or silicon rubber between the two surfaces. If the overlap was made 1.5", that would leave the aluminium 0.5" clear of the mild steel deck. Secure the joint with (guessing ...) 6 or 8 mm s/s coachbolts, spaced (say) every 3 or 4 inches ? All bedded in silicone rubber, or your favourite goo. One obvious problem with this is the logistics of assembly, as the mating surface is vertical. One workaround would be to fabricate the cabin first (using an angle-iron former at the base ?), then attach the rubber and s/s strips, and bolt together. Lower this cabin assembly onto the steel side deck, then position and tack the s/s strip onto the side-decks. Unbolt, lift-off cabin, and fully seam weld the s/s upstand. If the initial weld tacking should damage the rubber, then either sacrifice the strip and replace, or initially tack using 5 minute epoxy, which can be chipped away after good tack- welds are in place. Certainly a flat joint would be easier for construction, but less good for waterprooofing. Upstands are frequently used in roofing construction where horizontal and vertical surfaces meet (chimney flashing etc). Might be the basis for a workable technique ? Colin| 5131|5131|2004-08-21 21:43:19|ktx7ca|Dinghy Pattern|Hi everyone I'm ready to make the dinghy, but by looking at the plans I noticed that there no measurement for the sheet size the coresponds the measument listed. any one having this info it would be greatly aprecaited, thanks chris oh has anyone built one of these before ?| 5132|5090|2004-08-21 21:46:12|John Cupp|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|I have been in fabrication and building metal boats since the 1960's. I became a certified welder at NASA in Moffet Field California while serving my apprenticeship as a machinist there. In all of the shops I have been in and the places I have worked where offshore boats were built there was no destruction testing done. All of the vessels were engineered to conform to stress loads ten times what they might find at sea. When we get into Origami construction how many of the designers have engineering degrees? Don't get me wrong I like the concept of building boats in this manner but I doubt that many backyard builders or the supposed professional building sites posted on this forum have the capability for destructive testing or the engineers to decipher the data from those tests. This is trial and error R&D of the most dangerous kind. Sure there are guidelines that should be followed but has anyone of these builders ever x-rayed their welds? Have they hydraulically bent assemblies at 10 to 15 cycles per minute for days on end? This type of construction is in its infancy. I still have not received Brent's book yet but I will read it thoroughly to understand this construction. I still am not sure I want to build this way. As far as sailing techniques having any bearing on construction I personally say no. I know many blue water sailors would ask who the designer was. I am sure that most would not be satisfied with the answers they hear here. I would not buy an Origami boat that was not built more professionally than what I have seen here. I wonder how many of thee boat could qualify in a survey conducted for buyers in Europe? I would hate for this construction to go through a period like Ferro- Cement went through in the late 60's and early 70's. Many of those boats were built but could not pass a survey because the builders were not meticulous in keeping records and made many short cuts. That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of the Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction known to man. That is why I suggest an Origami Association that would go out and inspect hulls for certification through it. Each of the Origami designs would need to be reviewed by an engineer and then inspected while being built. Many one design boats are built to these strict conditions and also carry a large resale value. I for one would not mind having to make sure that my boats conform to a building code meant to make the boats safer. It would be an added value in years to come and not make Origami boats stigmatized like the Ferro-Cement boats are today. Just a thought. If everyone would make solid comments and stop the in-fighting this group would do much better. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. > > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and > destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 > years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing > being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining > fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > > > I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5133|4674|2004-08-21 21:46:55|Mike|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Colin: Here today, gone tomorrow?LOL While there is a provision in the Criminal Code of Canada for bringing charges, the persons charged with inspecting and, subsequently, deeming a vessel to be "unseaworthy" are the Ship Safety Officers of the Canadian Coast Guard, whom are granted their powers by the Minister of Transportation (Transport Canada) through the Canada Shipping Act. While these officers may inspect any marine vessel while in Canadian waters, as a practice, they only inspect commercial vessels, any vessels which are the subject of an investigation due to a marine incident, & those vessels awaiting registration. To the best of my recollection as a former Marine Traffic Regulator (now MCTSO) with the Vessel Traffic Services Branch (Pacific Region - "Vancouver Traffic") of the Canadian Coast Guard, and as a graduate of the Canadian Coast Guard College, holder of a Watchkeeping Mate Unrestricted(WKMR)Certificate, I can pretty much guarantee that no one will be knocking on Mr. Christie's door to inspect his "work in progress" for seaworthiness. By the way,You hit the nail on the head regarding a vessel deemed to be a hazard to navigation. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Are you sure this doesn't refer only to commercial maritime > operations ? > > I don't know too much about the regulations and laws of other > countries, but here in the UK the authorities are equally hot (and > quite right too, imho) regarding the seaworthiness of ships in UK > waters (including those flying foreign flags) and any vessel carrying > passengers. Likewise, they are equally hot regarding the > qualifications of the crews involved, and the safety gear carried. > > In marked contrast, a private individual can still go out to sea in a > leaky sieve if they are so minded, and take a bible along in lieu of > flares, just so long as they do not present a hazard to navigation. > This is one of our last cherished freedoms ..... as is sailing > without either qualifications or insurance - and interestingly, we > have one of the lowest per capita sailing accident rates in the > world - so maybe there's a connection ? > > Anybody fancy taking a stab at defining "seaworthiness" ? Titanic > was deemed seaworthy, as were the early Ro-Ro ferries. Loss of life > in both cases. > > Slocum's Liberdade was deemed unseaworthy and he had to sneak the > vessel out to sea. It never sank. So what do the authorities know ? > > Colin | 5134|5090|2004-08-21 21:47:25|David K McComber|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|I'm designing an aluminum hulled boat. Steel simply is not suitable for this boat. Though aluminum is some what more forgiving of stress risers then steel, it is best to try to design out as many as possible. So I find Greg's analyses of how some of these stress risers can be avoided interesting. I would never build an aluminum boat over 30' long without some transverse framing. A ridged hull is necessary to avoid fatigue in aluminum. David McComber d.mccomber@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5135|5135|2004-08-21 21:47:52|Henri Naths|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays'|David , Would they not stress test a frame of a vehicule to the point of fatigue failure? I'm just guessing. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 19 August, 2004 11:50 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining fatigue.(it sounded good, though) I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to destruction sub assembles several times a shift. David McComber d.mccomber@... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5136|5136|2004-08-22 11:50:11|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Yatch Legs Fo keel and skeg protection during tides|Dear Brent, and everyone Is it possible to use or design Yatch legs for the boats to avoid this problem of skeg weakness as if u know u are going to be left hign and dry by a low tide to use yatch legs like these advertised on this site i got on MBS forum. www.yachtlegs.co.uk/preset.cfm I we can make something like this while making the boat i think it can help in avoinding the danger to skeg and keel also when the tide comes in or goes out My pennies worth of thought. Sharad [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5137|5137|2004-08-22 11:50:31|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Yatch Legs|Hi brent After reading the post i say that u have the legs i dea already in ur book. Thanks again SharadFrom Sharad Sharma Generation 2000 / Little kingdom Caya G.F.B.C.108 B-C, Oranjestad, Aruba, Dutch caribbean Ph 0297 5829868 - 5839277 fx 02975829959 sharadsharma@...| 5138|5138|2004-08-22 11:50:41|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Yatch legs|Hey guys this is the page for yatch legs which i was talking in my earlier mail pls look at it. u can always add this to ur boat to protect the keel and the skeg. http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=428&sid=f328b96da042 01200f0df22067e3581e Thanks Sharad From Sharad Sharma Generation 2000 / Little kingdom Caya G.F.B.C.108 B-C, Oranjestad, Aruba, Dutch caribbean Ph 0297 5829868 - 5839277 fx 02975829959 sharadsharma@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5139|5090|2004-08-22 11:51:56|Steve Rankin|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|> That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of the > Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction known to > man. > John Cupp John, I would have to take issue with the idea that a ferro-cement boat fall into the category of "the finest construction known to man" statement. I do think concrete makes a decent mooring and use it for that purpose myself. My thoughts are that the stigma is well earned and deserved. But then maybe you know something I don't. What are you doing wasting time on a list dedicated to orgami steel construction if you wouldn't own one? Maybe there aren't enough concrete ones still floating? Cheers Steve| 5140|5090|2004-08-22 11:52:02|Carl Volkwein|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Mike wrote: David: 1)Have you determined that these are, indeed, unsound fab techniques? I would be interested to know what brought you to this conclusion. There seems to me to be a "lifetime of difference" between concern for a potential problem and Greg's rantings. So far, I have read posts from Greg that would lead a reader to believe that Brent's designs are seriously flawed. I am skeptical as to Greg's ability - based on knowledge(?) and experience(?) - to discern whether there is, indeed, a serious flaw, or not. Anybody can tell us that the sky is falling, few have the skills to make that determination. 2)That's great. You've worked in the auto industry for over 35 years. Is that the industry to which Greg was refering? I assumed he was refering to the metal fabrication industry. As Greg & I live in the same geographical area, I would be surprised to find that a large number of fab. shops in the area perform destructive testing for the purposes of studying fatigue on structures which they are fabricating(though, there would be a higher incidence of testing with aluminum than steel). In fact, I would suggest that that is the domain of a structural engineer. I think that Greg's idea for us to give a clear indication of our individual backgrounds is a good one, because, I don't think that Greg has the education or formal experience to back up - once again - what came across to me as fearmongering. I don't think that you will find many in the "metal fabrication of structures" industry whom are willing to destroy their work several times a shift, though. Can I see a show of hands: Which owners of Swain designed boats are willing to haul their boats & beat the crap out of them, until they are twisted pieces of metal, for the benefit of this group? No one? Apples & oranges, David, apples & oranges. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > >I've worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > I've worked in the steel fabricating industrie, quite a few years ago, and if we needed something "tested to destruction" we would make one item and send it out for testing. We didn't do much of this.Also, I've never used this, but read about it in Steel boatbuilding, there are bars that have steel on one side and aluminum on the other, you can weld the steel side to the steel and the al to al and it won't come apart or corode, I think it comes in bars and mabe other shaps. I like this group, eversince I signed up I have lots of e-mails Carl. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5141|5141|2004-08-22 11:52:34|Gerd|holidays are over..|.. and I'm back on the scrap heap ;-) I have also finished the first part of the YAGO workbook, building the hull, for download on my site. It's a bit of a slow server though, and with the pics it's about 3 MB. It is still very much an uncomplete draft, but might already be interesting for some of you to see more pictures on pulling the hull together. All comments welcome ;-) I have also done some more work on the plans, the first pack should be ready soon. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5142|5090|2004-08-22 11:53:43|Michael Casling|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|I would find Greg's posts a lot easier to take if he would respond to a direct question with an answer related to the question.He first draws our attention to a " problem " but then fails to bring forward any information even when asked to clarify. He has now appointed himself with a title which is poor taste at its best. It may be the medium, I am sure we all could probably converse with him in person. He has had experience and I am sure he has learned from that experience, he now has to learn how to provide information about that experience that is acceptable to the listener, and just because a person has the experience or knowledge does not mean others will listen. I have listened and will continue to listen to experienced sailors but only those that relay their knowledge in an acceptable manner, which is what most of them do. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' David: 1)Have you determined that these are, indeed, unsound fab techniques? I would be interested to know what brought you to this conclusion. There seems to me to be a "lifetime of difference" between concern for a potential problem and Greg's rantings. So far, I have read posts from Greg that would lead a reader to believe that Brent's designs are seriously flawed. I am skeptical as to Greg's ability - based on knowledge(?) and experience(?) - to discern whether there is, indeed, a serious flaw, or not. Anybody can tell us that the sky is falling, few have the skills to make that determination. 2)That's great. You've worked in the auto industry for over 35 years. Is that the industry to which Greg was refering? I assumed he was refering to the metal fabrication industry. As Greg & I live in the same geographical area, I would be surprised to find that a large number of fab. shops in the area perform destructive testing for the purposes of studying fatigue on structures which they are fabricating(though, there would be a higher incidence of testing with aluminum than steel). In fact, I would suggest that that is the domain of a structural engineer. I think that Greg's idea for us to give a clear indication of our individual backgrounds is a good one, because, I don't think that Greg has the education or formal experience to back up - once again - what came across to me as fearmongering. I don't think that you will find many in the "metal fabrication of structures" industry whom are willing to destroy their work several times a shift, though. Can I see a show of hands: Which owners of Swain designed boats are willing to haul their boats & beat the crap out of them, until they are twisted pieces of metal, for the benefit of this group? No one? Apples & oranges, David, apples & oranges. Regards, Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5143|5090|2004-08-22 11:56:13|Michael Casling|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|The scantling rules have been developed over time and later the engineers have added input. If a boat is built to existing proven scantling rules then you need not be an engineer to feel safe. There were not many scantling rules for the early fibreglass boats and some are a bit overbuilt as their age and serviceability is showing. I do not have your knowledge with welding so I hire a pro and never have a problem unless my design is flawed. With home built anything there is going to be a large difference in quality. A friend was building a plane using composites a few years ago. He is still alive so he must have read the instructions. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: John Cupp To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' I have been in fabrication and building metal boats since the 1960's. I became a certified welder at NASA in Moffet Field California while serving my apprenticeship as a machinist there. In all of the shops I have been in and the places I have worked where offshore boats were built there was no destruction testing done. All of the vessels were engineered to conform to stress loads ten times what they might find at sea. When we get into Origami construction how many of the designers have engineering degrees? Don't get me wrong I like the concept of building boats in this manner but I doubt that many backyard builders or the supposed professional building sites posted on this forum have the capability for destructive testing or the engineers to decipher the data from those tests. This is trial and error R&D of the most dangerous kind. Sure there are guidelines that should be followed but has anyone of these builders ever x-rayed their welds? Have they hydraulically bent assemblies at 10 to 15 cycles per minute for days on end? This type of construction is in its infancy. I still have not received Brent's book yet but I will read it thoroughly to understand this construction. I still am not sure I want to build this way. As far as sailing techniques having any bearing on construction I personally say no. I know many blue water sailors would ask who the designer was. I am sure that most would not be satisfied with the answers they hear here. I would not buy an Origami boat that was not built more professionally than what I have seen here. I wonder how many of thee boat could qualify in a survey conducted for buyers in Europe? I would hate for this construction to go through a period like Ferro- Cement went through in the late 60's and early 70's. Many of those boats were built but could not pass a survey because the builders were not meticulous in keeping records and made many short cuts. That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of the Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction known to man. That is why I suggest an Origami Association that would go out and inspect hulls for certification through it. Each of the Origami designs would need to be reviewed by an engineer and then inspected while being built. Many one design boats are built to these strict conditions and also carry a large resale value. I for one would not mind having to make sure that my boats conform to a building code meant to make the boats safer. It would be an added value in years to come and not make Origami boats stigmatized like the Ferro-Cement boats are today. Just a thought. If everyone would make solid comments and stop the in-fighting this group would do much better. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. > > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and > destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 > years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing > being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining > fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > > > I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5144|5114|2004-08-22 11:56:53|Michael Casling|Re: Failures and Accidents|Interesting post. The failures that come to my mind are a couple of sinkings, a missing keel or two and a jammed rudder. The sinkings convince me to add enough buoyancy to make the boat float. Digsby Taylor wrote about this. I hope he qualifies as an expert having sailed Outward Bound around the world, plus much other offshore sailing. I also spoke to the owner of Snow White Two in Auckland about the sinking of Snow White One. One of the round the world boats in an early race was having rudder jamming problems. It was an aluminum boat and the aft sections were distorting and jamming the shaft. It was over the Christmas time in Auckland and a few local welders helped get the boat functional again. I have a photo taken from outside the boat. Drum lost its keel. Ron Holland was asked to submit the design info. I found this ineresting. If my memory is correct he calculated 2 1/2 times the weight of the keel as applied pressure at the bottom. It was the aluminum welds that had failed and they were done by a proffessional shop in England. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: silascrosby To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of is that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a number of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in Suva,Fiji I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month old son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to BC. I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between NZ and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container or fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same harbour but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the engine beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded flange. That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was motoring into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and Monica). At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and hit an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed the keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell it was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything except warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit a rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard keel and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was on the floor,jam-side down. I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or others. I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he managed to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami twin keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and Allison spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We were sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas at the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping along.Excellent sailing. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5145|5138|2004-08-22 12:27:29|Steve Rankin|Re: Yatch legs|I have "legs" for my Gazelle, and I believe it was Brent who suggested it to me when I was finishing her. I have used them in the yard as the only means of support while I did a major refit, but have never used them on an other surface. I have always been a bit nervous about the ground not supporting the weight and the boat falling over. Since she careens without problem, I think that is a more secure way of working on her on a beach. Cheers Steve sharadsharma@... wrote: > Hey guys this is the page for yatch legs which i was talking in my earlier mail pls > look at it. u can always add this to ur boat to protect the keel and the skeg. > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=428&sid=f328b96da042 > 01200f0df22067e3581e > Thanks Sharad From > Sharad Sharma > Generation 2000 / Little kingdom > Caya G.F.B.C.108 B-C, > Oranjestad, Aruba, Dutch caribbean > Ph 0297 5829868 - 5839277 > fx 02975829959 > sharadsharma@... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5146|5141|2004-08-22 12:27:39|Henri Naths|Re: holidays are over..|Hi gerd, Glad your back. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 22 August, 2004 8:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] holidays are over.. .. and I'm back on the scrap heap ;-) I have also finished the first part of the YAGO workbook, building the hull, for download on my site. It's a bit of a slow server though, and with the pics it's about 3 MB. It is still very much an uncomplete draft, but might already be interesting for some of you to see more pictures on pulling the hull together. All comments welcome ;-) I have also done some more work on the plans, the first pack should be ready soon. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5147|5147|2004-08-22 12:29:52|Alex|cooling off|Dear Group, I've had to put the group message setting on moderated posting, if you are wondering why your posts are delayed in getting through. There is no place on this board for personal attacks, no matter how passionate you feel about defending a position. Extremely nasty postings won't get through at all. I firmly believe it is possible to debate the relative merits of all positions without resorting to flame wars. Let's get back to the subject at hand so I can spend more time building my boat and less time vetting postings! Thanks, Alex| 5148|5135|2004-08-22 12:29:57|David K McComber|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|-----Original Message----- From: Henri Naths [mailto:c_hnaths@...] Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 8:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' David , Would they not stress test a frame of a vehicule to the point of fatigue failure? I'm just guessing. Henri Yes they hammer apart frames as well as every other sub assemble, doors, Flore pans firewall, ect, of the vehicle every day. This testing is done to make sure that the spot welds will ripe a hole in one of the parts, rather then coming apart in the weld. They also crash test each new design to complete destruction before it goes into production. David McComber d.mccomber@... * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5149|5138|2004-08-22 12:36:28|Mike|Re: Yatch legs|Sharad: I considered using a similar system instead of bilge keels, as I wish to build a boat which I can "park" on my beach and appreciate the difference in righting moment between a fin & bilge keels. There are two possible problems that I can see arising from this system, however. First, I think that one would require a rather large footprint when standing on soft ground. Second, the vessel would not, I think, be able to move as close to the shore due to vertical length of fin keel. On a shoreline of minimal slope, one might find themselves quite a distance from the high tide line. But, does it work? The concept has been used for hundreds of years. The most interesting design that I have seen had the ability to unpin the legs so that they could swing back. This allowed for an easier method of freeing the legs when they "dug-in" to the ground too deeply. Telescopic legs would certainly be a benefit when factoring in spatial considerations. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, sharadsharma@s... wrote: > Hey guys this is the page for yatch legs which i was talking in my earlier mail pls > look at it. u can always add this to ur boat to protect the keel and the skeg. > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php? t=428&sid=f328b96da042 > 01200f0df22067e3581e > Thanks Sharad From > Sharad Sharma > Generation 2000 / Little kingdom > Caya G.F.B.C.108 B-C, > Oranjestad, Aruba, Dutch caribbean > Ph 0297 5829868 - 5839277 > fx 02975829959 > sharadsharma@s... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5150|5150|2004-08-22 12:37:03|Alex|origami boat models|For your interest, I've found an interesting Polish site featuring models of different origami model boats. http://www.oceany.3miasto.pl/print.php?sid=1591 The origamiboats group is mentioned in their text, so they must have seen our site. There is a canoe, row boat, motorboat, and others. Neat stuff! Alex| 5151|5151|2004-08-22 14:08:18|Henri Naths|(no subject)|Steve, I, for one, am very pleased that every structural component, every welding procedure, all rigging, engine modifications, in fact all aspects of yachting origami boats is examined and re-examined with a fine tooth comb I would also suggest that anyone that doesn't do that or trys to stop the process would also fit a certain aforementioned description. Henri. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5152|5150|2004-08-22 14:08:38|Mike|Re: origami boat models|Well, that's interesting. Any translators out there? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > For your interest, I've found an interesting Polish site featuring models of > different origami model boats. > > http://www.oceany.3miasto.pl/print.php?sid=1591 > > The origamiboats group is mentioned in their text, so they must have seen our > site. There is a canoe, row boat, motorboat, and others. Neat stuff! > > Alex | 5153|5124|2004-08-22 14:08:39|gschnell|Re: Melting lead for keel|Two comments: The slope from the melting pot to the keel should be fairly shallow, as the liquid lead will splash and spatter every where. The tray carrying the lead from the melting pot to the keel will need to be quite short or heated (or both) as the lead will "set" on its way down the "sluice" and spill over the sides. (been there, done that) Gord Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > I need to melt and place about two ton of lead in the keel. I am > thinking about welding up a box with a pipe that runs from the top of > the deck down to the keel. I plan to heat the box and as the lead > melts it should run down the pipe and into the keel. > Question for those of you with lead melting experience. Can you see a > flaw in the plan? > Gerald > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5154|5154|2004-08-22 14:08:59|Robert Gainer|Re: Failures and Accidents|Michael said, If my memory is correct he calculated 2 1/2 times the weight of the keel as applied pressure at the bottom. It was the aluminum welds that had failed and they were done by a proffessional shop in England. Michael, Do you remember if they reached any conclusion on the cause of failure? I understand that you said it was at the weld. Was it the design of the joint or the failure of the base metal or in weld zone? The criteria he used for the loading doesn�t seam to be unreasonable. That 2-1/2 represents 75% more then the entire weight of the boat on the end of the keel. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/| 5155|5090|2004-08-22 14:11:02|Mike|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|John: I agree with your post "from stem to stern" & will, for my part, "bite my tongue". The most appealing aspect of building in this method is, for me, the lack of expense. To have an engineer give his/her stamp of approval to each of Brent's designs would be, initially, expensive and result in a marked increase in the cost of purchasing the plans. Still, one must invest if one wants the piece of mind of knowing that what they are building has a stamp of approval. Then, there are the fabrication concerns. If, for example, Alex & Brent got together to set and apply a standard for how these vessels should be built(based on the boat that Alex is now building), the fabrication end, in Canada, would require, I think, the Canadian Welding Bureau(fabrication in plate, welder/fab. shop certification - Alex), the Worker's Compensation Board(site safety inspection - Alex), Lloyds/Emeritius/ABS inspections & evaluations (Brent & Alex), and Coast Guard Certification(Alex). I don't foresee Brent, or Alex, becoming overly enthusiastic about such an endeavour, however, it would be interesting to read their thoughts on this. Then again, should the plans receive a "recognized" stamp of approval, I agree that this method would not have to suffer the same lack of mainstream acceptance that has plagued the ferrocement boats(though, I understand that that method has suffered largely due to the use of sub-standard materials - chicken wire, etc. - moreso than the designs themselves). I look forward to reading other responses on this topic. Thanks for the suggestions, John. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > I have been in fabrication and building metal boats since the > 1960's. I became a certified welder at NASA in Moffet Field > California while serving my apprenticeship as a machinist there. In > all of the shops I have been in and the places I have worked where > offshore boats were built there was no destruction testing done. All > of the vessels were engineered to conform to stress loads ten times > what they might find at sea. > > When we get into Origami construction how many of the designers have > engineering degrees? Don't get me wrong I like the concept of > building boats in this manner but I doubt that many backyard builders > or the supposed professional building sites posted on this forum have > the capability for destructive testing or the engineers to decipher > the data from those tests. This is trial and error R&D of the most > dangerous kind. Sure there are guidelines that should be followed > but has anyone of these builders ever x-rayed their welds? Have they > hydraulically bent assemblies at 10 to 15 cycles per minute for days > on end? > > This type of construction is in its infancy. I still have not > received Brent's book yet but I will read it thoroughly to understand > this construction. I still am not sure I want to build this way. As > far as sailing techniques having any bearing on construction I > personally say no. I know many blue water sailors would ask who the > designer was. I am sure that most would not be satisfied with the > answers they hear here. I would not buy an Origami boat that was not > built more professionally than what I have seen here. I wonder how > many of thee boat could qualify in a survey conducted for buyers in > Europe? > > I would hate for this construction to go through a period like Ferro- > Cement went through in the late 60's and early 70's. Many of those > boats were built but could not pass a survey because the builders > were not meticulous in keeping records and made many short cuts. > That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of the > Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction known to > man. > > That is why I suggest an Origami Association that would go out and > inspect hulls for certification through it. Each of the Origami > designs would need to be reviewed by an engineer and then inspected > while being built. Many one design boats are built to these strict > conditions and also carry a large resale value. I for one would not > mind having to make sure that my boats conform to a building code > meant to make the boats safer. It would be an added value in years > to come and not make Origami boats stigmatized like the Ferro- Cement > boats are today. Just a thought. > > If everyone would make solid comments and stop the in-fighting this > group would do much better. > > John Cupp > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > wrote: > > I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. > > > > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > > > > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between > fatigue and > > destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I > spent 4 > > years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive > testing > > being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining > > fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > > > > > > > I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test > to > > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > 9/D=gr > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4 > ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > > > > 804.jp > > g> > > > > > > > > M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=groups/S= > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5156|5124|2004-08-22 16:28:18|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Melting lead for keel|My plan was to run a pipe thru the hatch straight down to the keel so that would give me zero ramp. I should be able to address the splatter part by a few well placed pieces of sheet metal. Will be interesting to see if the lead hardens in the two meters of tube on the way into the keel. If so I will be forced to change my plan or like you say, heat the tube. I was kind of wondering if the lead might laminate as it ran into the keel and in turn cause some kind of problem that I am not aware of? Thanks Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Two comments: > The slope from the melting pot to the keel should be fairly shallow, as > the liquid lead will splash and spatter every where. > The tray carrying the lead from the melting pot to the keel will need to > be quite short or heated (or both) as the lead will "set" on its way > down the "sluice" and spill over the sides. (been there, done that) > Gord > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > > > I need to melt and place about two ton of lead in the keel. I am > > thinking about welding up a box with a pipe that runs from the top of > > the deck down to the keel. I plan to heat the box and as the lead > > melts it should run down the pipe and into the keel. > > Question for those of you with lead melting experience. Can you see a > > flaw in the plan? > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [Image] > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5157|5157|2004-08-22 18:56:08|Alex|Polish Origami|Hi All, I've followed a link on that previosly mentioned Polish site, taking me to = http:// www.jachty.p-net.pl/index.html , which features designs by Wojciecha Nadolnego or Nadolny. Use www.poltrans.com (Polish to English translation= webpage) if you want to hash away at a basic translation. The title of Nadolny's site, "Jachty dla ka´´dego" basically means, 'Yachts for Everyone= ". Lots of interesting stuff in there for anyone interested in applying the techniques to smaller craft, especially trailerables. Alex| 5158|5158|2004-08-22 19:11:01|ben_azo|Origami African Ferro-Cement BoatBuilding & Construction|From:  "ben_azo" > > Hi Steve,I have some thoughts and questions for John to , > > cause he has hit the nail on the head with some serious > > comments about Origami & safety & scantlings and so on. > > I am convinced to , some positive collaboration would lead to > > improvements better than in-fighting as John stated so well. > > > > As a prudent newby in this Group , I would love to hear your > > opinion about me posting some more about using a design > > technique I discovered thanks to this group . > > > > I am designing and building a model for the Metal sceleton > > needed to build an African Ferro-Cement Fishingboat and > > do the metal sceleton settup in the way I found in the Pics > > over here.Saves labor etcetera , and looks so simple once > > seen ( and done I presume ) > > > > I hope to be the first Origami Ferro-Cement Boatbuilder. > > Only the sceleton will be in Metal , and I will use classification > > scantlings for sure , for the metal sceleton , the drawings , and > > eventual classification . We would love to start and finish > > this year ( today a fine UK surveyor & builder joined in). > > > > All info already assembeled can be seen in a repository > > http://tinyurl.com/6jj93 > > I would value your opinion ( you sure are an Origami Tifosi ) > > to know if further posting belongs here or if I am just wasting > > my time and the time of the Group's other members like > > you where sugesting about John's postings ?? > > To be frank I found John's posting interesting and I was > already > > preparing a founded response. > > > > Or you should ask advise to the moderator that has a hard > > enough job allready keeping tensions low and maximise input. Wondering about any feedback:-) > > Old Ben Azo > > > > From:  Steve Rankin > > Date:  Sun Aug 22, 2004  7:26 am > > Subject:  Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > > That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some > > of the Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest > > construction known to man. > > John Cupp > > > > John, I would have to take issue with the idea that a > ferro-cement > > boat > > fall into the category of "the finest construction known to man" > > statement. I do think concrete makes a decent mooring and > use > > it for > > that purpose myself. My thoughts are that the stigma is well > > earned and > > deserved. But then maybe you know something I don't. What > are > > you doing > > wasting time on a list dedicated to orgami steel construction if > > you > > wouldn't own one? Maybe there aren't enough concrete ones > still > > floating? > > Cheers > > Steve | 5159|5159|2004-08-22 22:57:00|ben_azo|Origami Chat ?|Why not organise an open , unmoderated , frank Chat session ? It has been organised with some succes in other Groups , on a weekly basis . A weekly open Chat-session in here with possible answers for all questions and comments , shouting , bad language , jokes or whatever allowed , it sure could attract some. Just propose an international convenient hour for all candidate participants in parexample a late Sunday night Origami Chatsession ( a time Children are suposed to rest and sleep ) Count me in along the willing if there is an interest. Old Ben| 5160|5158|2004-08-22 23:13:21|Steve Rankin|Re: Origami African Ferro-Cement BoatBuilding & Construction|Hi Ben My thoughts are that ferrocement is an acceptable material in cases where labor is cheap and materials expensive, and for fishing boats in third world or developing countries, is a reasonable way to go. I seem to recall that the Cubans did some of their fishing fleet that way back in the 60's. Dollars were scarce and cement was available, and the fish were needed. Under those conditions, if the hulls deteriorated due to damage or corrosion, another could be substituted cheaply. Hundreds of Liberty ships were build during WW2 out of concrete. However the life expectancy was not long in wartime conditions, and so the criteria was different than someone wanting a privately owned vessel. Also a commercial or fish boat can compensate by building a heavier x-section which allows a lot more tolerance than someone building a smaller vessel say, in the 40 ft range. In the Maldives, the fish boats are built from Palm. They are lovely, but don't last long. However, when you don't have financial resources, building with what is at hand is the only choice. Please be aware that I do not own an Orgami boat, but a couple have been built at my place, and if I were ever to build another boat it would most certainly be built in that fashion. For what its worth,in my opinion steel boats, even relatively sloppily put together, will in most cases be immensely tougher that a meticulously built ferro hull of similar size. I am a fan of concrete, having spent my working life involved heavily with the material, but it would be my last choice as a material for a boat I cruise in. Cheers Steve ben_azo wrote: > From: "ben_azo" > > >>>Hi Steve,I have some thoughts and questions for John to , >>>cause he has hit the nail on the head with some serious >>>comments about Origami & safety & scantlings and so on. >>>I am convinced to , some positive collaboration would lead to >>>improvements better than in-fighting as John stated so well. >>> >>>As a prudent newby in this Group , I would love to hear your >>>opinion about me posting some more about using a design >>>technique I discovered thanks to this group . >>> >>>I am designing and building a model for the Metal sceleton >>>needed to build an African Ferro-Cement Fishingboat and >>>do the metal sceleton settup in the way I found in the Pics >>>over here.Saves labor etcetera , and looks so simple once >>>seen ( and done I presume ) >>> >>>I hope to be the first Origami Ferro-Cement Boatbuilder. >>>Only the sceleton will be in Metal , and I will use classification >>>scantlings for sure , for the metal sceleton , the drawings , > > and > >>>eventual classification . We would love to start and finish >>>this year ( today a fine UK surveyor & builder joined in). >>> >>>All info already assembeled can be seen in a repository >>>http://tinyurl.com/6jj93 >>>I would value your opinion ( you sure are an Origami Tifosi ) >>>to know if further posting belongs here or if I am just wasting >>>my time and the time of the Group's other members like >>>you where sugesting about John's postings ?? >>>To be frank I found John's posting interesting and I was >> >>already >> >>>preparing a founded response. >>> >>>Or you should ask advise to the moderator that has a hard >>>enough job allready keeping tensions low and maximise > > input. > Wondering about any feedback:-) > >>>Old Ben Azo >>> >>>From: Steve Rankin >>>Date: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:26 am >>>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' >>> >>>>That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though > > some > >>>of the Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest >>>construction known to man. >>>John Cupp >>> >>>John, I would have to take issue with the idea that a >> >>ferro-cement >> >>>boat >>>fall into the category of "the finest construction known to man" >>>statement. I do think concrete makes a decent mooring and >> >>use >> >>>it for >>>that purpose myself. My thoughts are that the stigma is well >>>earned and >>>deserved. But then maybe you know something I don't. What >> >>are >> >>>you doing >>>wasting time on a list dedicated to orgami steel construction > > if > >>>you >>>wouldn't own one? Maybe there aren't enough concrete ones >> >>still >> >>>floating? >>>Cheers >>>Steve > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5161|5097|2004-08-22 23:46:15|normanbywaite|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Oops, too late. I took the advice of someone who responded to my post, and mailed you a $30 (Canadian $) bank draft (which cost me $20 AUD from the bank - bastards). Hope you can cash it okay. I posted it airmail on the 20th of August. Looking forward to reading it. Cheers, Matt, Melbourne, Australia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Send me some Auusie cash $20 for the book and $10 for airmail > postage . The exchange rate is too close to worry about these days . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" > wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I've been lurking around this group for about a week, and would > love > > to read Brent Swain's book. > > I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I > can > > get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how > much. > > I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the > > last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere > > it took 16 weeks! > > I'm most interested in smaller boats. I first became aware of this > > discussion group from a post on a microcruising yahoo group. > > What i REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, > > but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section > > of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort > > of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, > > unstayed mast. I realize that a flush deck would mean less > headroom, > > but i'd hope to have 8"-10" higher topsides, and portholes in the > > topsides. > > I'd love to hear some opinions about my preferences and their > > workability from those who've built in steel. > > As you can probably guess, my daydreaming is still in its infancy, > > and you folks (judging from the posts & replies) sound like you > know > > what you're talking about - unlike myself. > > I'm about a year off beginning to build - i still have a little > cedar > > racing dinghy to finish restoring (LOTS of sanding) before i can > get > > into what i really want to build. > > Cheers, > > Matt > > Melbourne, > > Australia | 5162|5097|2004-08-23 00:09:44|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|Yes, Matt, I wish Brent had sent that email when I ordered! I had to pay NZ$25 for the bank draft. Never mind, the book is most definitely worth while. Paul normanbywaite wrote: >Oops, too late. I took the advice of someone who responded to my >post, and mailed you a $30 (Canadian $) bank draft (which cost me $20 >AUD from the bank - bastards). Hope you can cash it okay. I posted it >airmail on the 20th of August. > > | 5163|5154|2004-08-23 00:37:30|Michael Casling|Re: Failures and Accidents|There was an aluminum filler between the hull and the keel which lowered the keel maybe two feet. It was the bottom plate of the filler that held the keel bolts that failed. The welds were found to be not sufficient. Ron was found not to be at fault. The hearing was called quickly because there were a few other boats offshore with similar keels and Drum was on its way around the world. It ran aground in the Bay of Islands in NZ but it is a soft bottom and easy to do with a deep draft boat. All the above is from memory although I did read the findings carefully at the time. It was easy to apply the loadings to the 400 pound keel on my daggerboard boat when I was adding more lead. I added 100 pounds to the bottom. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Gainer" To: Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > Michael said, > If my memory is correct he calculated 2 1/2 times the weight of the keel as > applied pressure at the bottom. It was the aluminum welds that had failed > and they were done by a proffessional shop in England. > > Michael, > Do you remember if they reached any conclusion on the cause of failure? I > understand that you said it was at the weld. Was it the design of the joint > or the failure of the base metal or in weld zone? The criteria he used for > the loading doesn't seam to be unreasonable. That 2-1/2 represents 75% more > then the entire weight of the boat on the end of the keel. > All the best, > Robert Gainer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5164|5097|2004-08-23 00:38:24|normanbywaite|Re: Raised topsides|Hi Ben, Thanks for the info. I've looked at all the macnaughton designs, and like them very much. But i do want steel, and origami sounds the go, for a lazy simpleton like myself. I couldn't find a pic of Chuck Paine's "Francis", but your tom thumb sounded great too. Any pics of that on the 'net? You might like a look at Paul Thompson's website. I thought his home- built Tahiti ketch was beautifully executed: http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/About%20Lachica.htm# We should correspond - you sound like you've done some of the stuff i wanna do. If you're ever in Melbourne, look me up, and if i'm in Tassie, i'll give you a yell. In the meantime, i'm hungry for any pictures i can get a look at that help me form a mental picture of what i want, and how to fabricate it. Cheers, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi Matt > > I live in tasmania, and got brents book sent to me, I can't remember > how long it took but it was very quick (less than 10 days?). The book > is simple and has some fantastic tips, I should have just got $can > and sent it as the money order cost me nearly as much as the book! I > paid $10 extra for postage. > > Your ideas for a small junk rigged BS sounds neat, have a look at > mcnaughtons coin and silver gull series of designs at > http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/stockplans.htm > > good to hear of someone else from down under on the site, If your > over in tassie give me a yell. > > I helped build a 29 foot steel Tom Thumb with raised topsides and a > gaff rig, originaly we were going to put a junk rig on her but Adrain > decided to go with Gaff in the end. She sails really well but may be > a tad tender with the three mm decks (I like Gerds 2mm idea). The > raised topsides amidships is actually quite nice to work on (athough > havn't tried it in a rough sea yet) and gives an enormous amount of > space below. My old folkboat was great for living aboard but I always > wanted to give her raised topsides to increase the siting room below. > Also look at Chuck Paines "Francis" with the flush deck and sitting > headroom. If you only go for sitting headroom make sure you plan a > nice sheltered cockpit with a good hatch and spray dodger or > something so when it rains at least you can stand up somewhere and > stay dry!! Reiger (the folkboat) had a dodger with a flap at the back > like a tents vestible that kept the rain and spray out even with the > wind from astern so the hatch stayed open most of the time. > > Cheers > > Ben | 5165|5165|2004-08-23 03:42:53|ben_azo|A single sheet " Origami " model : EMUBO|http://www.emubo.com/e/paper/paper.html find this link also in the Links / direct link to PDF : http://www.emubo.com/e/paper/Schnittplan.PDF or http://tinyurl.com/4w4np You could build the model out of 1 sheet of Corten ; visit : http://www.nonstopscaffolding.com/uglytubs.html or http://tinyurl.com/4u949 For real testing one could build many little models all to be folded , welded and left untreated exposed to the ellements 1 in the garden (could serve for flowers) 1 on a balcony in a salty seaside environment , 1 in rainwater , 1 in seawater , 1 in a chemicaly poluted seawater environment etcetera ; of course all boats could have the front or afthsection treated with some sort of protection and that would double the test . We could even consider making exactly the same models out of mild steel and or aluminum. I am like Saint Thomas ( was he an Heretic ? ) and believe what I see and put my finger in or on , rather than to take 1970 hearsay from an obscure foreman as a fact . Just some thoughts from Sceptic old Ben| 5166|5097|2004-08-23 04:39:11|Graeme|Re: Brent's book airmail to Australia?|You can send cash registered mail ......just put in a old card or folded paper so I cant be seen through the envelope . There are foreign currency shops in a lot of shopping centers in Australia graeme Oops, too late. I took the advice of someone who responded to my post, and mailed you a $30 (Canadian $) bank draft (which cost me $20 AUD from the bank - bastards). Hope you can cash it okay. I posted it airmail on the 20th of August. Looking forward to reading it. Cheers, Matt, Melbourne, Australia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Send me some Auusie cash $20 for the book and $10 for airmail > postage . The exchange rate is too close to worry about these days . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" > wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I've been lurking around this group for about a week, and would > love > > to read Brent Swain's book. > > I gather from earlier posts that one simply posts him a cheque. I > can > > get a bank draft for US$ (Canadian $?), but i need to know how > much. > > I would need to include air mail postage to Australia, because the > > last time i had something posted to me from the northern hemisphere > > it took 16 weeks! > > I'm most interested in smaller boats. I first became aware of this > > discussion group from a post on a microcruising yahoo group. > > What i REALLY want is a kind of modified folkboat: 25 feet, steel, > > but somewhat banana shaped like "Nothin Wong" (in the files section > > of this group). Twin bilge keeled, flush decked, with that sort > > of 'covered wagon' look at the stern, and junk rigged - single, > > unstayed mast. I realize that a flush deck would mean less > headroom, > > but i'd hope to have 8"-10" higher topsides, and portholes in the > > topsides. > > I'd love to hear some opinions about my preferences and their > > workability from those who've built in steel. > > As you can probably guess, my daydreaming is still in its infancy, > > and you folks (judging from the posts & replies) sound like you > know > > what you're talking about - unlike myself. > > I'm about a year off beginning to build - i still have a little > cedar > > racing dinghy to finish restoring (LOTS of sanding) before i can > get > > into what i really want to build. > > Cheers, > > Matt > > Melbourne, > > Australia To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5167|5135|2004-08-23 13:00:47|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Herreshoff regularly built models and tested them to destruction to ensure they were strong enough. There was a posting on this site some months ago where a shop had welded up thousands of parts, only to have the client reject them on the basis of destructive testing. If the shop had simply tested the first couple of parts they built, they could have avoided the problem. The beauty of destructive testing is its simplicity. Build a scale model, and pull it apart. Using scaling rules, you can then reliably determine a safe working load as a small fraction of the breaking strength. If you simply load something to 90% of breaking strength and it doesn't fail, you might incorrectly assume it is safe. However, it doesn't take long for steel to fail if it is repeatedly loaded to 90%. Coupon testing is the perhaps the most basic form of destructive testing for welders, and typically is required as part of certification. In a large shop with sufficient budget, non-destructive testing such as x-rays, coupled with extensive documentation is often used in place of destructive testing. When the problem is well understood, engineering techniques are a lower cost alternative to testing. The boat building industry places high reliance on scantlings to ensure boats are strong enough. There are well researched scantlings available for metal boats, based on years of experience in thousands of metal boats, backed by a large body of qualified and experienced marine engineers. No one needs to be an engineer to say it is dangerous to leave the framing out of a metal boat - there are plenty of engineers that have already said this. Where are the engineers that say it is safe to leave out the framing - without making the hulls significantly thicker to compensate? What scantlings are origami boats built to? Is there engineering approval for these scantlings? Any discussion of certification would be meaningless without this. This approval is not likely if the scantlings in an origami boat are lighter than recognized metal boat scantlings. Our solution to this problem is simple. Don't re-invent the wheel. Use the existing scantlings for metal boats to build origami boats. These scantlings can be adapted to origami, because there is nothing inherently unique in the shape of an origami boat. In doing this, we don't need to be marine engineers. We simply build using scantlings that have already been shown to be safe. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John Cupp To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' I have been in fabrication and building metal boats since the 1960's. I became a certified welder at NASA in Moffet Field California while serving my apprenticeship as a machinist there. In all of the shops I have been in and the places I have worked where offshore boats were built there was no destruction testing done. All of the vessels were engineered to conform to stress loads ten times what they might find at sea. When we get into Origami construction how many of the designers have engineering degrees? Don't get me wrong I like the concept of building boats in this manner but I doubt that many backyard builders or the supposed professional building sites posted on this forum have the capability for destructive testing or the engineers to decipher the data from those tests. This is trial and error R&D of the most dangerous kind. Sure there are guidelines that should be followed but has anyone of these builders ever x-rayed their welds? Have they hydraulically bent assemblies at 10 to 15 cycles per minute for days on end? This type of construction is in its infancy. I still have not received Brent's book yet but I will read it thoroughly to understand this construction. I still am not sure I want to build this way. As far as sailing techniques having any bearing on construction I personally say no. I know many blue water sailors would ask who the designer was. I am sure that most would not be satisfied with the answers they hear here. I would not buy an Origami boat that was not built more professionally than what I have seen here. I wonder how many of thee boat could qualify in a survey conducted for buyers in Europe? I would hate for this construction to go through a period like Ferro- Cement went through in the late 60's and early 70's. Many of those boats were built but could not pass a survey because the builders were not meticulous in keeping records and made many short cuts. That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of the Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction known to man. That is why I suggest an Origami Association that would go out and inspect hulls for certification through it. Each of the Origami designs would need to be reviewed by an engineer and then inspected while being built. Many one design boats are built to these strict conditions and also carry a large resale value. I for one would not mind having to make sure that my boats conform to a building code meant to make the boats safer. It would be an added value in years to come and not make Origami boats stigmatized like the Ferro-Cement boats are today. Just a thought. If everyone would make solid comments and stop the in-fighting this group would do much better. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. > > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue and > destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 > years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing > being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining > fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > > > I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5168|5168|2004-08-23 13:00:48|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember well discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They were without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago revolving around the question of whether origami boat required framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but no one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view of origami is biased. For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead to high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on the skeg and rudder. Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, and if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, with a girder system between. I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the failures reported by Brent and Gerd. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: silascrosby To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of is that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a number of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in Suva,Fiji I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month old son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to BC. I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between NZ and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container or fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same harbour but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the engine beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded flange. That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was motoring into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and Monica). At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and hit an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed the keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell it was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything except warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit a rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard keel and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was on the floor,jam-side down. I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or others. I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he managed to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami twin keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and Allison spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We were sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas at the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping along.Excellent sailing. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5169|5135|2004-08-23 16:58:36|Robert Gainer|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Greg said, Our solution to this problem is simple. Don't re-invent the wheel. Use the existing scantlings for metal boats to build origami boats. These scantlings can be adapted to origami, because there is nothing inherently unique in the shape of an origami boat. In doing this, we don't need to be marine engineers. We simply build using scantlings that have already been shown to be safe. Greg, The scantling rules were written for framed construction. How do you propose to back into the frameless situation? If you intend to calculate the section modulus by the book and then design the new structure to match the old section modulus you run into the subjective interpretation of how to consider the stringers and frames in calculating the section modulus of the original structure. Add to that, predicting the buckling response of thin shells in structural materials is not as easy as you would want, so this comparison is generally not going to be valid. At this stage I think the empirical approach is the way to go. See what breaks and then design the next boat better. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/| 5170|5090|2004-08-23 21:22:55|John Cupp|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|First Steve, I feel that I do not waste my time reading about the cutting edge advancements in boat construction. I write for several boating magazines testing construction tools for this end. Reading about any type of construction is of great interest to me. I did not say I would not own a boat I built in this technique if I considered the plans to be sound . I have been on Ferro boats that others thought were built from glass or cold molding the hulls were so fair. They had been sailing for well over twenty years without any major refitting or hull problems. I guess opinions are like some anatomical body parts that almost everyone has. They all are slightly different. I am sorry if the Ferro boat similarity offended you. The point I was trying to make was for investment purposes, no one really wants to lose money if they had to abandon their sailing for a more sedentary lifestyle. It is because of the low building cost that I am drawn to learn more about this form of building. By the way Brian's book arrived today so my reading will be late into the night. From my first glances it is filled with examples and construction techniques that will be very useful to any builders of this type boat. If anyone is looking for a low cost method of building a boat then I assume there is a concern about the money invested. It would be ludicrous to worry about the building cost and not to worry about resale value at the same time. I do not want anyone to forget all the Ferro boats started in the 60's and 70's. That craze blew through thousands of potential yacht owners like a hurricane. In the end many people lost untold fortunes by using short cut plans for sub-standard boats. If we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. My feeling on this is there needs to be some sort self scrutiny so that all of the Origami boats made are all of a very high caliber. Even if they are made in wood lots or back yards, design plans need to be uniform so that the poor builders are not hapless R&D testers. As Robert Gainer so aptly pointed out Origami building is reinventing the wheel. This type of construction is new and easily could be fraught with people more concerned about money than safety in the future. I am just advocating self policing and acceptable standards. Although some Iconoclastic individuals will rant and rave, isn't it better to guarantee the existence of higher levels of safety and quality. I don't want to pay a penny more than needed for any portion of my boat building budget like most of us. This forum is indeed a very good thing because any plans are sure to be spotlighted here. People selling plans and or completed boats must be held to a higher standard. It is also very good that at least two of the three or four people with plans are represented here on almost a daily basis to answer questions about their designs. I personally don't reject any type of boat building material. There are thousands of college students who each year compete in designing Ferro Cement canoes. They have come up with some very unique designs that are engineered to be light weight and perform under demanding conditions. It would be nice if we could get MIT or Cal-Tech engineering students to do some studies on Origami construction. I think that any development would be good and I plan on asking some of my boat designing friends to look into these Origami plans. Their opinions would be interesting at best. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > > > > That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of the > > Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction known to > > man. > > > > John Cupp > > > John, I would have to take issue with the idea that a ferro-cement boat > fall into the category of "the finest construction known to man" > statement. I do think concrete makes a decent mooring and use it for > that purpose myself. My thoughts are that the stigma is well earned and > deserved. But then maybe you know something I don't. What are you doing > wasting time on a list dedicated to orgami steel construction if you > wouldn't own one? Maybe there aren't enough concrete ones still > floating? > > Cheers > Steve | 5171|5090|2004-08-23 23:14:44|Steve Rankin|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|John Please don't apologize as you did not offend me by anything you said. And you are absolutely right....Concrete can be made to look like glass. Cheers Steve John Cupp wrote: > First Steve, I feel that I do not waste my time reading about the > cutting edge advancements in boat construction. I write for several > boating magazines testing construction tools for this end. Reading > about any type of construction is of great interest to me. I did not > say I would not own a boat I built in this technique if I considered > the plans to be sound . > > I have been on Ferro boats that others thought were built from glass > or cold molding the hulls were so fair. They had been sailing for > well over twenty years without any major refitting or hull problems. > I guess opinions are like some anatomical body parts that almost > everyone has. They all are slightly different. I am sorry if the > Ferro boat similarity offended you. The point I was trying to make > was for investment purposes, no one really wants to lose money if > they had to abandon their sailing for a more sedentary lifestyle. > > It is because of the low building cost that I am drawn to learn more > about this form of building. By the way Brian's book arrived today > so my reading will be late into the night. From my first glances it > is filled with examples and construction techniques that will be very > useful to any builders of this type boat. If anyone is looking for a > low cost method of building a boat then I assume there is a concern > about the money invested. It would be ludicrous to worry about the > building cost and not to worry about resale value at the same time. > > I do not want anyone to forget all the Ferro boats started in the > 60's and 70's. That craze blew through thousands of potential yacht > owners like a hurricane. In the end many people lost untold > fortunes by using short cut plans for sub-standard boats. If we > forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. My feeling on this is > there needs to be some sort self scrutiny so that all of the Origami > boats made are all of a very high caliber. Even if they are made in > wood lots or back yards, design plans need to be uniform so that the > poor builders are not hapless R&D testers. > > As Robert Gainer so aptly pointed out Origami building is > reinventing the wheel. This type of construction is new and easily > could be fraught with people more concerned about money than safety > in the future. I am just advocating self policing and acceptable > standards. Although some Iconoclastic individuals will rant and > rave, isn't it better to guarantee the existence of higher levels of > safety and quality. I don't want to pay a penny more than needed > for any portion of my boat building budget like most of us. This > forum is indeed a very good thing because any plans are sure to be > spotlighted here. People selling plans and or completed boats must > be held to a higher standard. It is also very good that at least two > of the three or four people with plans are represented here on almost > a daily basis to answer questions about their designs. > > I personally don't reject any type of boat building material. There > are thousands of college students who each year compete in designing > Ferro Cement canoes. They have come up with some very unique designs > that are engineered to be light weight and perform under demanding > conditions. It would be nice if we could get MIT or Cal-Tech > engineering students to do some studies on Origami construction. I > think that any development would be good and I plan on asking some of > my boat designing friends to look into these Origami plans. Their > opinions would be interesting at best. > > John > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin > wrote: > >> >>>That stigma still haunts Ferro-boats today even though some of > > the > >>>Jay Benford built boats have some of the finest construction > > known to > >>>man. >> >> > > >>>John Cupp >> >> >>John, I would have to take issue with the idea that a ferro-cement > > boat > >>fall into the category of "the finest construction known to man" >>statement. I do think concrete makes a decent mooring and use it > > for > >>that purpose myself. My thoughts are that the stigma is well > > earned and > >>deserved. But then maybe you know something I don't. What are you > > doing > >>wasting time on a list dedicated to orgami steel construction if > > you > >>wouldn't own one? Maybe there aren't enough concrete ones still >>floating? >> >>Cheers >>Steve > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5172|5090|2004-08-24 10:07:24|Gerd|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|John, I believe that we are really making a mistake if we talk about origami boats as if they were different species like GF, Ferro or classic wood. Origami boats are metal hulls, and very closely related to hardchine metal. The fact that the skin is pulled together first, from a template and the structure fitted in afterwards does not make them structurally significantly different from other chine metal hulls. (If any, a hull with _identical_ structure and skin in Origami would probably be a bit stronger than hard chine due to a certain amount of compound curve.) If origami would have a reputation of it's own, then that is probably due to the fact that - mistakenly in my humble opinion - origami is considered and promoted as "frameless boats" (not frameless assembly). There are frameless hard-chine hulls, frameless radius or round chine hulls and frameless origami hulls. There are also all of these types designed WITH frames.... Frames or not, ALL of them should be designed and built properly, and as Greg has pointed out, there is ample empirical data for all of them and we all make best use of it, even if we may sometimes interprete it differently. But there is nothing specific for origami hulls here as far as I can see. I also believe that an _amateur_ built origami hull has a better re- sale value than an _amateur_ hard-chine hull (same boat, built to same standard) because it looks much nicer.. As for regulation, if there is anything that could finally put me off building forever, that would be some wise guy crawling with his "origami-appoved" stamp over my boat ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5173|5173|2004-08-24 11:49:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|scantlings for origami|Hi Robert, I'm not keen on the empirical approach for offshore. The problem is that you cannot tell if a part is operating within its safe working load, or in significant fatigue. John is essentially correct to call this "trial and error R&D of the most dangerous kind". Rather than argue against John, I would rather eliminate the trial and error approach. Most folks on this site are going to find dealing with the section modulus beyond them. I think there is a simpler way to adapt existing scantlings to origami - something that every builder can use. Our stumbling block is the word "frameless". We assume that origami is frameless because it has no ring frames, and thus don't look further. However, this is just terminoligy. The longitudinals in an origami boat serve as longitudinal frames. They don't simply stiffen the hull, they support it - as has been pointed out by others. This makes them frames. The best place to start would be scantlings for longitudinally framed boats - with no ring frames. Short of this, rather than start with the scantlings for frame and stringer construction, start with the scantlings for frame only construction, without the stringers. If you think about it, this is very close to what you have in appearance to an origami hull, except the direction of framing is changed. Now, consider a 40x12 origami boat. Turn it 90 degrees. What do you have? You have a 12x40 conventionally framed boat without stringers. Sure, the boat is short, it is beamy, and it moves sideways faster than it moves forwards, but in essence that is what you have. Build the 40x12 origami boat using the scantlings for a 12x40 conventionally framed, stringer-less boat. Sounds wacky? Try some examples and see if the answers look reasonable. There are refinements on this idea to overcome the objections the might be made, but in essence if you consider this approach in detail I believe you will find that the resulting boat is of the correct strength for its size. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > Greg said, > Our solution to this problem is simple. Don't re-invent the wheel. Use > the > existing scantlings for metal boats to build origami boats. These > scantlings can be adapted to origami, because there is nothing inherently > unique in the shape of an origami boat. In doing this, we don't need to > be > marine engineers. We simply build using scantlings that have already been > shown to be safe. > > > Greg, > The scantling rules were written for framed construction. How do you > propose > to back into the frameless situation? If you intend to calculate the > section > modulus by the book and then design the new structure to match the old > section modulus you run into the subjective interpretation of how to > consider the stringers and frames in calculating the section modulus of > the > original structure. Add to that, predicting the buckling response of thin > shells in structural materials is not as easy as you would want, so this > comparison is generally not going to be valid. At this stage I think the > empirical approach is the way to go. See what breaks and then design the > next boat better. > All the best, > Robert Gainer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ | 5174|5173|2004-08-24 12:29:46|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: scantlings for origami|I have a different take on the entire thing and this would apply to the so called amateur builders. Not to be confused with self proclaimed professionals or experts! My suggestion is this: Buy the plans from Brent Swain, build the boat like he suggests, ask Brent for advice when you have a problem and if you have the reqired skills, you will sail away in a self built, safe boat. End of story! Gerald Niffenegger --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I'm not keen on the empirical approach for offshore. The problem is that > you cannot tell if a part is operating within its safe working load, or in > significant fatigue. John is essentially correct to call this "trial and > error R&D of the most dangerous kind". Rather than argue against John, I > would rather eliminate the trial and error approach. > > Most folks on this site are going to find dealing with the section modulus > beyond them. I think there is a simpler way to adapt existing scantlings to > origami - something that every builder can use. > > Our stumbling block is the word "frameless". We assume that origami is > frameless because it has no ring frames, and thus don't look further. > However, this is just terminoligy. The longitudinals in an origami boat > serve as longitudinal frames. They don't simply stiffen the hull, they > support it - as has been pointed out by others. This makes them frames. > > The best place to start would be scantlings for longitudinally framed > boats - with no ring frames. Short of this, rather than start with the > scantlings for frame and stringer construction, start with the scantlings > for frame only construction, without the stringers. If you think about it, > this is very close to what you have in appearance to an origami hull, except > the direction of framing is changed. > > Now, consider a 40x12 origami boat. Turn it 90 degrees. What do you have? > You have a 12x40 conventionally framed boat without stringers. Sure, the > boat is short, it is beamy, and it moves sideways faster than it moves > forwards, but in essence that is what you have. Build the 40x12 origami > boat using the scantlings for a 12x40 conventionally framed, stringer-less > boat. > > Sounds wacky? Try some examples and see if the answers look reasonable. > There are refinements on this idea to overcome the objections the might be > made, but in essence if you consider this approach in detail I believe you > will find that the resulting boat is of the correct strength for its size. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" > wrote: > > Greg said, > > Our solution to this problem is simple. Don't re-invent the wheel. Use > > the > > existing scantlings for metal boats to build origami boats. These > > scantlings can be adapted to origami, because there is nothing inherently > > unique in the shape of an origami boat. In doing this, we don't need to > > be > > marine engineers. We simply build using scantlings that have already been > > shown to be safe. > > > > > > Greg, > > The scantling rules were written for framed construction. How do you > > propose > > to back into the frameless situation? If you intend to calculate the > > section > > modulus by the book and then design the new structure to match the old > > section modulus you run into the subjective interpretation of how to > > consider the stringers and frames in calculating the section modulus of > > the > > original structure. Add to that, predicting the buckling response of thin > > shells in structural materials is not as easy as you would want, so this > > comparison is generally not going to be valid. At this stage I think the > > empirical approach is the way to go. See what breaks and then design the > > next boat better. > > All the best, > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ | 5175|5135|2004-08-24 13:30:28|Richard Till|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Welding inspection is typically not about destructive testing. There is a paucity of material on the destructive testing of metal joining to refer to in industry (ABS, CWB, BS, ASME etc.). Inspection uses this information and applies it to non destructive methods of assessing integrity of structures. For the owner builder, destructive testing can be as simple as welding coupons (small plates) as you would in the hull and smashing the joint with a hammer with the test piece held in a vise. If it breaks--it is flawed. Keep trying until you get a join that works, get it right or hire a good welder. rt >From: "Henri Naths" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:44:13 -0600 > > > > >David , Would they not stress test a frame of a vehicule to the point of >fatigue failure? I'm just guessing. >Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 19 August, 2004 11:50 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays' > > > I for one have enjoyed Greg's posts. > > He is correct to worry about unsound fab techniques. > > > 2) Greg, please be more specific regarding the tie-in between fatigue >and > destructive testing and which "industry" you are refering to. I spent 4 > years working as a welding inspector & don't recall destructive testing > being widely performed by fab. shops for the purpose of determining > fatigue.(it sounded good, though) > > > > I have worked in the auto industry for over 35 years and they test to > destruction sub assembles several times a shift. > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > >oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093042278/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304ck1na/ > >*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > g> > > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=834972746> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >Service. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5176|5090|2004-08-24 17:19:12|fmichael graham|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|LOL. Right on, Gerd! Gerd wrote: ... As for regulation, if there is anything that could finally put me off building forever, that would be some wise guy crawling with his "origami-appoved" stamp over my boat ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5177|5138|2004-08-24 18:45:24|brentswain38|Re: Yatch legs|Pick the ground that you plan to sit on before touchdown.The socket type arrangement shown in my book , lets you stand on deck, untie the legs from a stachion and let them fallout of the sockets , then haul them aboard.This is much simpler than any swingback arrangement. Adding a larger foot print pad to the bottom of the leg can be done before inserting them in the socket. A single keel definitly makes for deeper draft. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Sharad: > I considered using a similar system instead of bilge keels, as I > wish to build a boat which I can "park" on my beach and appreciate > the difference in righting moment between a fin & bilge keels. There > are two possible problems that I can see arising from this system, > however. First, I think that one would require a rather large > footprint when standing on soft ground. Second, the vessel would > not, I think, be able to move as close to the shore due to vertical > length of fin keel. On a shoreline of minimal slope, one might find > themselves quite a distance from the high tide line. But, does it > work? The concept has been used for hundreds of years. The most > interesting design that I have seen had the ability to unpin the > legs so that they could swing back. This allowed for an easier > method of freeing the legs when they "dug-in" to the ground too > deeply. Telescopic legs would certainly be a benefit when factoring > in spatial considerations. > Regards, > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, sharadsharma@s... wrote: > > Hey guys this is the page for yatch legs which i was talking in > my earlier mail pls > > look at it. u can always add this to ur boat to protect the keel > and the skeg. > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php? > t=428&sid=f328b96da042 > > 01200f0df22067e3581e > > Thanks Sharad From > > Sharad Sharma > > Generation 2000 / Little kingdom > > Caya G.F.B.C.108 B-C, > > Oranjestad, Aruba, Dutch caribbean > > Ph 0297 5829868 - 5839277 > > fx 02975829959 > > sharadsharma@s... > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5178|5124|2004-08-24 18:49:03|brentswain38|Re: Melting lead for keel|Heat the pipe cherry red before opening the valve,and it won't freeze the lead. You can burn a temporary hole in the side of the keel and avoid all that heavy lifting, then weld the hole shut after you are done. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > My plan was to run a pipe thru the hatch straight down to the keel so > that would give me zero ramp. I should be able to address the splatter > part by a few well placed pieces of sheet metal. Will be interesting > to see if the lead hardens in the two meters of tube on the way into > the keel. If so I will be forced to change my plan or like you say, > heat the tube. I was kind of wondering if the lead might laminate as > it ran into the keel and in turn cause some kind of problem that I am > not aware of? > Thanks > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > Two comments: > > The slope from the melting pot to the keel should be fairly shallow, as > > the liquid lead will splash and spatter every where. > > The tray carrying the lead from the melting pot to the keel will need to > > be quite short or heated (or both) as the lead will "set" on its way > > down the "sluice" and spill over the sides. (been there, done that) > > Gord > > > > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > > > > > > I need to melt and place about two ton of lead in the keel. I am > > > thinking about welding up a box with a pipe that runs from the top of > > > the deck down to the keel. I plan to heat the box and as the lead > > > melts it should run down the pipe and into the keel. > > > Question for those of you with lead melting experience. Can you see a > > > flaw in the plan? > > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > [Image] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ --- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5179|5168|2004-08-24 18:58:49|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue and he said" It got me around the world in seven year circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly after . The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many cases a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember well discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They were without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > > Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago revolving around the question of whether origami boat required framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but no one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view of origami is biased. > > For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > > Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead to high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on the skeg and rudder. > > Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, and if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, with a girder system between. > > I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: silascrosby > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash > mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of is > that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a number > of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. > When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in Suva,Fiji > I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month old > son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to BC. > I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between NZ > and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container or > fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same harbour > but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the engine > beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded flange. > That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or > so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was motoring > into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and Monica). > At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and hit > an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed the > keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell it > was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything except > warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit a > rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale > chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard keel > and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was on > the floor,jam-side down. > I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or others. > I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is > building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper > of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he managed > to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in > 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami twin > keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and Allison > spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We were > sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas at > the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > along.Excellent sailing. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5180|5173|2004-08-25 00:13:10|Michael Casling|Re: scantlings for origami|And it is a good story. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:28 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scantlings for origami I have a different take on the entire thing and this would apply to the so called amateur builders. Not to be confused with self proclaimed professionals or experts! My suggestion is this: Buy the plans from Brent Swain, build the boat like he suggests, ask Brent for advice when you have a problem and if you have the reqired skills, you will sail away in a self built, safe boat. End of story! Gerald Niffenegger --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I'm not keen on the empirical approach for offshore. The problem is that > you cannot tell if a part is operating within its safe working load, or in > significant fatigue. John is essentially correct to call this "trial and > error R&D of the most dangerous kind". Rather than argue against John, I > would rather eliminate the trial and error approach. > > Most folks on this site are going to find dealing with the section modulus > beyond them. I think there is a simpler way to adapt existing scantlings to > origami - something that every builder can use. > > Our stumbling block is the word "frameless". We assume that origami is > frameless because it has no ring frames, and thus don't look further. > However, this is just terminoligy. The longitudinals in an origami boat > serve as longitudinal frames. They don't simply stiffen the hull, they > support it - as has been pointed out by others. This makes them frames. > > The best place to start would be scantlings for longitudinally framed > boats - with no ring frames. Short of this, rather than start with the > scantlings for frame and stringer construction, start with the scantlings > for frame only construction, without the stringers. If you think about it, > this is very close to what you have in appearance to an origami hull, except > the direction of framing is changed. > > Now, consider a 40x12 origami boat. Turn it 90 degrees. What do you have? > You have a 12x40 conventionally framed boat without stringers. Sure, the > boat is short, it is beamy, and it moves sideways faster than it moves > forwards, but in essence that is what you have. Build the 40x12 origami > boat using the scantlings for a 12x40 conventionally framed, stringer-less > boat. > > Sounds wacky? Try some examples and see if the answers look reasonable. > There are refinements on this idea to overcome the objections the might be > made, but in essence if you consider this approach in detail I believe you > will find that the resulting boat is of the correct strength for its size. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" > wrote: > > Greg said, > > Our solution to this problem is simple. Don't re-invent the wheel. Use > > the > > existing scantlings for metal boats to build origami boats. These > > scantlings can be adapted to origami, because there is nothing inherently > > unique in the shape of an origami boat. In doing this, we don't need to > > be > > marine engineers. We simply build using scantlings that have already been > > shown to be safe. > > > > > > Greg, > > The scantling rules were written for framed construction. How do you > > propose > > to back into the frameless situation? If you intend to calculate the > > section > > modulus by the book and then design the new structure to match the old > > section modulus you run into the subjective interpretation of how to > > consider the stringers and frames in calculating the section modulus of > > the > > original structure. Add to that, predicting the buckling response of thin > > shells in structural materials is not as easy as you would want, so this > > comparison is generally not going to be valid. At this stage I think the > > empirical approach is the way to go. See what breaks and then design the > > next boat better. > > All the best, > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5181|5090|2004-08-25 03:33:20|sae140|Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Hi John I would agree with your earlier comment that "this is trial and error R&D of the most dangerous kind" if we were back in Holland in the 1970's, but since that time a fair number of so-called frameless boats using a well-proven material in this novel way have been built. To the best of my knowledge only one 'Origami failure' has occured, and that was back in the early days and under the most testing of circumstances - conditions under which most other boats would have foundered much earlier, and even the cause of that 'failure' has since been addressed. In general, boats are simply not designed to withstand repeated uncontrolled contact with the land - and if this were ever to become a maritime safety requirement, then I suspect that the vast majority of craft world-wide would be automatically condemned as being unseaworthy. What has resulted over the last few decades is a well tried and tested steel boat design - whether the same can be said of aluminium alloy construction remains to be seen - time will tell. What I don't understand is why any comparison with ferro-cement construction is being made. Although good examples can be found, *as a method of construction* ferro-cement developed a well-earned bad reputation as a direct result of the numerous hull failures which occured - some boats even collapsed in the slings, unable to support their own weight ! But it wasn't the designs per se which were intrinsically bad, but the choice of material for the hull construction and the poor building technique subsequently employed. I do agree with you that reputation is important when it comes time to sell any boat, and here in the UK the larger Bruce Roberts designs fetch enormous prices - and of course many of these are of 'non- professional' construction. Imo, to make comparisons between home- built steel-framed and steel-frameless construction would be more valid, where again I agree with you that the standard of fabrication is an important factor. Having said that, I have seen examples of boats from commercial yards where the standard of welding was very poor indeed, in one particular case a butt weld parting when the boat collapsed onto a beaching leg - on a boat built (supposedly) to Lloyds A1. Personally, I don't see any need for inspection and regulation in order to ensure that Origami hulls develop and maintain a good reputation, for to the best of my knowledge this reputation already exists amongst those who've had first-hand contact with the technique, and is growing. The only negative prejudice being voiced is eminating from those who favour more traditional framed designs, and of course from those with vested interests in that form of construction. You are spot on regarding the in-fighting which breaks out here from time to time. I agree it is counter-productive. This has only happened during the last 12 months, and involves the same person on each occasion. Unless this problem is tackled at source it will unfortunately continue to occur. Best wishes Colin| 5182|5135|2004-08-25 07:42:12|Ben Tucker|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's 'holidays'|Hi all Would anyone like to build a few scale models and do some "destructive testing" on them? I'm sure that welding up a skeg assembily and then breaking it wouldn't be too hard, and would hopefully match roughly the failure modes that Greg has calculated. For an example of what can be learned from simple destructive testing see http://uk.geocities.com/benandbernie2000/Flemmisheyetest.html Testing one type against another avoids the need for accurate measuring. The only problem I see is that at the end of the day we can work out how strong anything is but we can't easily work out the loads it will be subjected to at sea when a large rogue wave hits, or you hit a reef. Reading Principles of Yacht Design by Larsson & Eliasson impressed me with how much empirical guess work really goes into the whole process, with Fudge factors and Assumptions though the whole book to work out the loads. Watching the americas cup shows that the "experts" often get it wrong. I guess science is about trying to understand all these things and we have come a huge way in the last 20 years so I won't knock the process to much. see http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/rigging_loads.htm The good thing about these tests is that they can highlight any weak points in an otherwise strong design. Depending on you point of veiw you can then strengthen the weak bit, or make the rest of the boat lighter. Done just right we end up with a boat that will completely fall to bits at a certain load or number of fatigue cycles (great idea!!) instead of just having the odd bit drop off. When My old man snaps the topmast it means it time to reduce sail (well it was ten minutes ago when we told him to!!) But i guess it's better than snapping the main mast. Cheers Ben > Herreshoff regularly built models and tested them to destruction to ensure they were strong enough. There was a posting on this site some months ago where a shop had welded up thousands of parts, only to have the client reject them on the basis of destructive testing. If the shop had simply tested the first couple of parts they built, they could have avoided the problem. > > The beauty of destructive testing is its simplicity. Build a scale model, and pull it apart. Using scaling rules, you can then reliably determine a safe working load as a small fraction of the breaking strength. If you simply load something to 90% of breaking strength and it doesn't fail, you might incorrectly assume it is safe. However, it doesn't take long for steel to fail if it is repeatedly loaded to 90%. > | 5183|5159|2004-08-25 08:15:55|Ben Tucker|Re: Origami Chat ?|Hi Older Ben The chat idea sounds like fun, Two makes a conversation so suggest a time, and some instructions on how "chat"! Cheers Young Ben > Why not organise an open , unmoderated , frank Chat session ? > It has been organised with some succes in other Groups , > on a weekly basis . > Old Ben | 5184|5184|2004-08-25 11:47:59|SHANE ROTHWELL|Scantlngs of Origami boats|Gerrald is right! Buy Plans from a man you can trust who's expertise is PROVEN (take a bow Mr. Swain) and very specifically ignore the burocraps & windbags like the self proclaimaed "expert" we all know as the smell is similar in both of these cases. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5185|5185|2004-08-25 12:18:37|SHANE ROTHWELL|Yacht Legs|Hi Brent, Your comments on yacht legs much appreicated. also brings up another, in my mind basic question: With all hatches on the centre line, or close to it, are you fin keel designs careenable with hatches open (assuming flat beach & totally calm conditions), or do you have to rely on hatches being water tight. Either way it's a damned sight better than any other material I've heard of but if your careened & it hits the fan & you need that extra bit of line or whatever from down below...... Thanks Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5186|5185|2004-08-25 17:16:52|brentswain38|Re: Yacht Legs|All my single keelers come back up from laying on the beach before the water hits the cabinsides.One friend dried out that way accidentally while he still had plastic taped over the ports. Boy was he worried. He had no problems comming back up tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Your comments on yacht legs much appreicated. also > brings up another, in my mind basic question: > > With all hatches on the centre line, or close to it, > are you fin keel designs careenable with hatches open > (assuming flat beach & totally calm conditions), or do > you have to rely on hatches being water tight. > > Either way it's a damned sight better than any other > material I've heard of but if your careened & it hits > the fan & you need that extra bit of line or whatever > from down below...... > > Thanks > Shane > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5187|4984|2004-08-25 18:00:04|kingsknight4life|Re: Moving Lead???|Thanks to everyone who responded to my enquiry. For future reference and bragging rights, John was right. He said, "I know it may sound silly.....but rent a chainsaw and use it to cut up the lead into smaller and easier to handle partts and don't ferget to pickup what the saw left behind". Just a few notes on my experience: The chain saw worked great make sure you get a large, powerful one. Don't use electric ones, they'll crap out and die. Clean it well before returning to the rental shop. (You may have to give it a quick wipe down or two while using it as well. They can gum up pretty bad.) Tarp all around and UNDRNEATH the lead. Shavings will fly 40 ft. or more. Collect shavings with a shop vac. ALWAYS wear eye protection and a shield if possible. Skillsaws also cut lead really well and are great if you only need 1 1/2 - 2 inch thick cuts. A Chevy Silverado 3/4 ton can hold 3500 lbs of lead but go slow and be careful. Rowland| 5188|4984|2004-08-26 00:11:35|John Jones|Re: Moving Lead???|Sooo Kewl So someone actually read one of my posts and Feces "It worked" well by golly I'm not that fool after all> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Thanks to everyone who responded to my enquiry. For future reference > and bragging rights, John was right. He said, "I know it may sound > silly.....but rent a chainsaw and use it to cut up the lead into > smaller and easier to handle partts and don't ferget to pickup what > the saw left behind". > > Just a few notes on my experience: > > The chain saw worked great make sure you get a large, powerful one. > Don't use electric ones, they'll crap out and die. > Clean it well before returning to the rental shop. (You may have to > give it a quick wipe down or two while using it as well. They can > gum up pretty bad.) > Tarp all around and UNDRNEATH the lead. Shavings will fly 40 ft. or > more. > Collect shavings with a shop vac. > ALWAYS wear eye protection and a shield if possible. > Skillsaws also cut lead really well and are great if you only need 1 > 1/2 - 2 inch thick cuts. > A Chevy Silverado 3/4 ton can hold 3500 lbs of lead but go slow and > be careful. > Rowland | 5189|5189|2004-08-26 08:27:45|Scott Carle|Ferro Cement Liberty ships|I have a link somewhere for a website of a company i think located on the us west coast or west coast of canada that are still using some of those ferro cement liberty ships as breakwaters to create sheltered water. They are still floating.... I thought at the time that it was kinda impressive that they were still floating. here is a nice summarized history of these ships. http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/95spring/shipbuilding.htm I can't seem to be able to find the link to the liberty ships I refereanced above. If I find it later I will post it. scott aka audeojude __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 5190|5190|2004-08-26 10:28:39|knutfg|Boat building materials|Even though this is a website for steel origami building, the ferrocement alternative has been brought up and as I read it, in quite negative terms. My intent is not to start a ferrocement discussion here, but I feel like chiming in with a supplement to some of what was stated before. I have never built a ferro-hull myself, but I did study the subject quite a bit some 30 years ago. As far as I can see, there are some very well developed designs available to produce high quality, safe and seaworthy boats about 40' and more. Like any other building material/method, it can be abused and you will find examples all over the quality range from the worst to the excellent. A properly designed and built ferro-hull is probably the most durable material there is and in terms of strength and toughness I would subjectively place it between "plastic" and steel. It is also quite easy to repair (contrary to popular belief) if it has got a heavy impact somewhere, causing deformation and microcracking. My friend Anders Eriksson has sailed single handed twice around the world, is now running a marina in Sweden and is a professional sea Captain. His current long-haul sailboat (Concreta) is a ferro-boat of about 45' that nobody would be able to identify as such without a closer inspection. The boat is an excellent example of a well constructed ferrocement hull and I have a hard time believing that a guy with his background and experience would own and operate it if ferrocement would have major flaws in the outset. As have been stated already: Regardless of selected hull material, design and construction has to be right and then there are several fully functional alternatives available to the serious boat builder.| 5191|5190|2004-08-26 11:17:42|Steve Rankin|Re: Boat building materials|I sailed with friends on their "lovely" 36' Hartly design built in NZ for a couple of trips. It was on the hard in Singapore for routine maintenance when we noticed a small blister about 1/2" in diameter on the keel. We chipped it back, and by the time we got to an area where the mesh hadn't corroded, we had an area 4 ft x 5ft to repair. To each his own. Incidently, this boat hade sailed for 15 or 20 years as well. Incidently micro cracking occurs during the curing of cement. It happens to be the nature of the material. Steve knutfg wrote: > Even though this is a website for steel origami building, the > ferrocement alternative has been brought up and as I read it, in > quite negative terms. My intent is not to start a ferrocement > discussion here, but I feel like chiming in with a supplement to > some of what was stated before. > I have never built a ferro-hull myself, but I did study the subject > quite a bit some 30 years ago. As far as I can see, there are some > very well developed designs available to produce high quality, safe > and seaworthy boats about 40' and more. Like any other building > material/method, it can be abused and you will find examples all > over the quality range from the worst to the excellent. A properly > designed and built ferro-hull is probably the most durable material > there is and in terms of strength and toughness I would subjectively > place it between "plastic" and steel. It is also quite easy to > repair (contrary to popular belief) if it has got a heavy impact > somewhere, causing deformation and microcracking. > My friend Anders Eriksson has sailed single handed twice around the > world, is now running a marina in Sweden and is a professional sea > Captain. His current long-haul sailboat (Concreta) is a ferro-boat > of about 45' that nobody would be able to identify as such without a > closer inspection. The boat is an excellent example of a well > constructed ferrocement hull and I have a hard time believing that a > guy with his background and experience would own and operate it if > ferrocement would have major flaws in the outset. > As have been stated already: Regardless of selected hull material, > design and construction has to be right and then there are several > fully functional alternatives available to the serious boat builder. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5192|5190|2004-08-26 12:06:04|John Jones|Re: Boat building materials|I sailed from New York to and through the Carribian and back to Toronto on a 43' ferro cement cutter just after a repair was completed. The boat sailed across lake Ontario from Toronto to Oswego in November on about 50' waves and upon arriving in Oswego NY the coast guard insisted the owner go to hospital for treatment of hypothermia, he was okay but the crew, who said they would stay with the boat went instead to a hotel and when the wind shifted.... the boat POUNDED relentlessly against the peir all night resulting in a 4'X8' hole in the side. He took drums of water on the opposite deck to provide a good list and sillyconed a sheet of plastic over the hole and headed further south breaking the ice for the plastic boats as he went. The repair was made in New Jersey because of the weather, most of the guys would say they're goin for it and come back at the end of the day dismasted or all the sails ripped to shreds, not the kind of weather you want to take a holed boat into. So the repairs were made in NJ and done with cement mixed with epoxie. It worked very well and, I guess I'm trying to point out that Ferro- Cement boats are VERY strong and durable and can be repaired. The new way to build them is a little bit at a time using epoxies IN the cement. As for me, I'm building with steel, Origami style....... Remember "If it aint steel... It aint a real boat" John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > I sailed with friends on their "lovely" 36' Hartly design built in NZ > for a couple of trips. It was on the hard in Singapore for routine > maintenance when we noticed a small blister about 1/2" in diameter on > the keel. We chipped it back, and by the time we got to an area where > the mesh hadn't corroded, we had an area 4 ft x 5ft to repair. > To each his own. Incidently, this boat hade sailed for 15 or 20 years as > well. Incidently micro cracking occurs during the curing of cement. It > happens to be the nature of the material. > > Steve > > knutfg wrote: > > > Even though this is a website for steel origami building, the > > ferrocement alternative has been brought up and as I read it, in > > quite negative terms. My intent is not to start a ferrocement > > discussion here, but I feel like chiming in with a supplement to > > some of what was stated before. > > I have never built a ferro-hull myself, but I did study the subject > > quite a bit some 30 years ago. As far as I can see, there are some > > very well developed designs available to produce high quality, safe > > and seaworthy boats about 40' and more. Like any other building > > material/method, it can be abused and you will find examples all > > over the quality range from the worst to the excellent. A properly > > designed and built ferro-hull is probably the most durable material > > there is and in terms of strength and toughness I would subjectively > > place it between "plastic" and steel. It is also quite easy to > > repair (contrary to popular belief) if it has got a heavy impact > > somewhere, causing deformation and microcracking. > > My friend Anders Eriksson has sailed single handed twice around the > > world, is now running a marina in Sweden and is a professional sea > > Captain. His current long-haul sailboat (Concreta) is a ferro-boat > > of about 45' that nobody would be able to identify as such without a > > closer inspection. The boat is an excellent example of a well > > constructed ferrocement hull and I have a hard time believing that a > > guy with his background and experience would own and operate it if > > ferrocement would have major flaws in the outset. > > As have been stated already: Regardless of selected hull material, > > design and construction has to be right and then there are several > > fully functional alternatives available to the serious boat builder. > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5193|5189|2004-08-26 12:45:38|John Jones|Re: Ferro Cement Liberty ships|Wow ... That's quite a read And I must agree, Ferro Cement is an good option for boat building. But I've chosen steel If it aint steel .... it aint real! Maybe a ferro dingy????? John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote: > I have a link somewhere for a website of a company i > think located on the us west coast or west coast of > canada that are still using some of those ferro cement > liberty ships as breakwaters to create sheltered > water. They are still floating.... I thought at the > time that it was kinda impressive that they were still > floating. > > here is a nice summarized history of these ships. > http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/95spring/shipbuilding.htm > > I can't seem to be able to find the link to the > liberty ships I refereanced above. If I find it later > I will post it. > > > > scott > aka audeojude > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail | 5194|5194|2004-08-26 13:06:11|tomjlee2000|To: Theologians & Politicians|A moderator has purchased an axe. And So?| 5195|5190|2004-08-26 13:11:23|Gerd|Re: Boat building materials|Knut, I fully agree with you that ferro hulls can be very nice and very strong. I have several friends that have built ferro yachts, and at several time helped cementing hulls that were done on a mould (thin skin) and they were very nice, strong boats. One of them fell off a key on its beam, at low tide, on rocks, because he had forgotten to secure the leaning hull, with no (apparent) damage. But the bad reputation as a second hand boat is fully deserved, because it is a) very easy to screw up the material and strength during building due to bad work and/or bad material used, b) it has attracted over the years a lot of people that would build much bigger boats than they could afford because of cheap initial investment, resulting in excessive scrounging and often sloppy work and c) both of this as well as internal rust and degradation is almost impossible to detect on a finished boat. You will never know what you get, and I would not buy a second hand ferro hull for sure. So you can really only build a boat for yourself and forever, and even then and in spite of all the best workmanship and precaution, you will always wonder what goes on inside... Also: a good ferro hull with first class material and coating is at least as expensive as a steel hull to build, I guess it's more really, and it is A LOT more work than a hard-chine or origami hull, it's very, very work-intensive from building the wire basket to getting a clean smooth finish. When ferro was popular in the seventies, the main argument at the time was that you could get cheap and easily heavy displacement round-chine hulls, with long keel and s-section that would be very difficult to build in steel. In the meantime, hull forms have evolved a lot towards V and U sections and morderate fin keels even for the more traditional minded, and the looks of an origami hull in the water is just as "round". I really can not see why I would build in ferro today - unless the chinese pick up the very last bits of steel on the market ;-) Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5196|5190|2004-08-26 22:31:09|Bill Jaine|Re: Boat building materials|So what about ferro as a house building material? Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: Gerd [mailto:yago@...] Sent: 26-Aug-04 1:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat building materials Knut, I fully agree with you that ferro hulls can be very nice and very strong. I have several friends that have built ferro yachts, and at several time helped cementing hulls that were done on a mould (thin skin) and they were very nice, strong boats. One of them fell off a key on its beam, at low tide, on rocks, because he had forgotten to secure the leaning hull, with no (apparent) damage. But the bad reputation as a second hand boat is fully deserved, because it is a) very easy to screw up the material and strength during building due to bad work and/or bad material used, b) it has attracted over the years a lot of people that would build much bigger boats than they could afford because of cheap initial investment, resulting in excessive scrounging and often sloppy work and c) both of this as well as internal rust and degradation is almost impossible to detect on a finished boat. You will never know what you get, and I would not buy a second hand ferro hull for sure. So you can really only build a boat for yourself and forever, and even then and in spite of all the best workmanship and precaution, you will always wonder what goes on inside... Also: a good ferro hull with first class material and coating is at least as expensive as a steel hull to build, I guess it's more really, and it is A LOT more work than a hard-chine or origami hull, it's very, very work-intensive from building the wire basket to getting a clean smooth finish. When ferro was popular in the seventies, the main argument at the time was that you could get cheap and easily heavy displacement round-chine hulls, with long keel and s-section that would be very difficult to build in steel. In the meantime, hull forms have evolved a lot towards V and U sections and morderate fin keels even for the more traditional minded, and the looks of an origami hull in the water is just as "round". I really can not see why I would build in ferro today - unless the chinese pick up the very last bits of steel on the market ;-) Gerd the Yago Project at HYPERLINK "http://www.justmueller.com/boats/"http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12984v5k5/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/ D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093626684/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*htt p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298"click here HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=group s/S=:HM/A=2319501/rand=844390422" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro up/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"ori gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5197|5190|2004-08-26 23:14:22|John Jones|Re: Boat building materials|It's an old technology, So go for it But if it has to phloat be sure to seal up the basement. But most of the high rises in the world use the same methods bof building --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > So what about ferro as a house building material? > > Bill > Port Hope. Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerd [mailto:yago@j...] > Sent: 26-Aug-04 1:10 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat building materials > > Knut, I fully agree with you that ferro hulls can be very nice and > very strong. I have several friends that have built ferro yachts, > and at several time helped cementing hulls that were done on a mould > (thin skin) and they were very nice, strong boats. One of them fell > off a key on its beam, at low tide, on rocks, because he had > forgotten to secure the leaning hull, with no (apparent) damage. > > But the bad reputation as a second hand boat is fully deserved, > because it is a) very easy to screw up the material and strength > during building due to bad work and/or bad material used, b) it has > attracted over the years a lot of people that would build much > bigger boats than they could afford because of cheap initial > investment, resulting in excessive scrounging and often sloppy work > and c) both of this as well as internal rust and degradation is > almost impossible to detect on a finished boat. You will never know > what you get, and I would not buy a second hand ferro hull for sure. > > So you can really only build a boat for yourself and forever, and > even then and in spite of all the best workmanship and precaution, > you will always wonder what goes on inside... > > Also: a good ferro hull with first class material and coating is at > least as expensive as a steel hull to build, I guess it's more > really, and it is A LOT more work than a hard-chine or origami hull, > it's very, very work-intensive from building the wire basket to > getting a clean smooth finish. > > When ferro was popular in the seventies, the main argument at the > time was that you could get cheap and easily heavy displacement > round-chine hulls, with long keel and s-section that would be very > difficult to build in steel. In the meantime, hull forms have > evolved a lot towards V and U sections and morderate fin keels even > for the more traditional minded, and the looks of an origami hull in > the water is just as "round". > > I really can not see why I would build in ferro today - unless the > chinese pick up the very last bits of steel on the market ;-) > > Gerd > the Yago Project at HYPERLINK > "http://www.justmueller.com/boats/"http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > HYPERLINK > "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12984v5k5/M= 298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/ > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093626684/A=2319501/R=0/SIG= 11tq0u909/*htt > p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298"click here > > HYPERLINK > "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D= group > s/S=:HM/A=2319501/rand=844390422" > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro > up/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject= Unsubscribe"ori > gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24/08/2004 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24/08/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5198|5198|2004-08-26 23:15:11|vega1944|Ferro cement liberty ships|The breakwater, using scuttled ferro ships is in the Powell Riverarea on the Sunshine Coast,B.C.and is used as a secure area for logbooms for the local pulp mill.| 5199|5168|2004-08-27 03:06:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both mounts would have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a seaway, if one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a 500 lb engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has been posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, similar to the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal mounted at near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like the other attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject to fatigue and failure without warning. The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is standard is nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when the boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, they routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings for ABS and similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for fatigue? Has the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be considered proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. This makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any reason to build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven scantlings for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser scantlings than is standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to make them as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > after . > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many cases > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember well > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They were > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but no > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view > of origami is biased. >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead to > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > the skeg and rudder. >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, and > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > with a girder system between. >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: silascrosby >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of > is >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > number >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > Suva,Fiji >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > old >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to > BC. >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between > NZ >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container > or >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > harbour >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > engine >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > flange. >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > motoring >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > Monica). >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > hit >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed > the >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell > it >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > except >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit > a >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > keel >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was > on >> the floor,jam-side down. >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > others. >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > managed >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > twin >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > Allison >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > were >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > at >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping >> along.Excellent sailing. >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5200|5168|2004-08-27 09:42:09|carlmbentley|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|> I noticed that > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > after. huh says there, in the message YOU replied to , that the engine mounts were INCORRECTLY done. Nevermind that they lasted 7 YEARS. so why you bothered to retell the tale is beyond me, except to add a few choice doom and gloom phrases. you say- > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has > been posted many times on this site. uh ==what, if you don't do it right it may break ?? -amen brother. -carl building a 36 swain in florida --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both mounts would > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a seaway, if > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a 500 lb > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has been > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, similar to > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal mounted at > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like the other > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject to > fatigue and failure without warning. > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is standard is > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when the > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, they > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings for ABS and > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for fatigue? Has > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be considered > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. This > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any reason to > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven scantlings > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser scantlings than is > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to make them > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > after . > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many cases > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > Brent Swain | 5201|5168|2004-08-27 12:57:33|gschnell|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|An old "off-roaders" solution to this problem is a length of chain (slacked), bolted to each engine mount and to a longitudunal frame nearby. This will prevent the engine from "romping around the cabin" should the existing motor mounts fail. Gord ge@... wrote: > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both mounts > would > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > seaway, if > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a 500 > lb > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has been > > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > similar to > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal mounted > at > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like the > other > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject to > fatigue and failure without warning. > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > standard is > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when > the > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, they > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings for > ABS and > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > fatigue? Has > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be considered > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > This > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any > reason to > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > scantlings > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser scantlings > than is > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to make > them > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that > > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > after . > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > cases > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your > > > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with > > > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember > well > > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They > were > > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that > > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > >> > >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then > > > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago > > > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but > no > > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are > > > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view > > of origami is biased. > >> > >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that > > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > >> > >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead > to > > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks > > > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > > the skeg and rudder. > >> > >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, > and > > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well > > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus > > > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > > with a girder system between. > >> > >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > >> > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> > >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small > > > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: silascrosby > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash > >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of > > > is > >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > > number > >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. > > >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > > Suva,Fiji > >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > > old > >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to > > BC. > >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between > > NZ > >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container > > > or > >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > > harbour > >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > > engine > >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > > flange. > >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or > >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > > motoring > >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > > Monica). > >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > > hit > >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed > > the > >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell > > it > >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > > except > >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit > > > a > >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale > >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > > keel > >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was > > > on > >> the floor,jam-side down. > >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > > others. > >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is > > >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper > >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > > managed > >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in > >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > > twin > >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > > Allison > >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > > were > >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > > at > >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > >> along.Excellent sailing. > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5202|5168|2004-08-27 13:55:18|edward_stoneuk|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|An example of the difference between stiffness and strength that was taught when I studied engineering is when Fokker, were developing a monoplane after many years of making successful biplanes and triplanes. On the first test flight, when levelling out from a dive the stress on the wings was such that the wings broke off, the plane crashed and the pilot was killed. So they built another with reinforcing at the area that had previously failed to stiffen it and the same thing happened, although the failure was at a different place and another test pilot died. In the end they realised that a certain amount of give was needed to avoid the stress raising areas where there was a discontinuity of strength and they became a successful monoplane manufacturer. In his finite element analysis pictures (http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm) of a twin keeler Greg has shown the effect of stiffening on the the base of the keels which is to greatly increase the stress in the keels/skegs at the area where they come into contact with the curious external cross bracing or anti-surf device. The maximum stress in the structure is greater in the final version than it is in the first version. Does the software tell you how many cycles before the keels fail due to fatigue Greg? Regards, Ted| 5203|5203|2004-08-27 14:09:54|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Lister engines|I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under my belt, and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out with you guys some ideas that seem practical to me. First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister (with a dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and its liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as well as able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the engine can be installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the water. Finally, Listers are available on the used and new markets in the form of generator sets, and could be used to power a welder from the very beginning of the project. Before sailing, the builder would be thoroughly familiar with the operation and quirks of his particular engine, including hand starting and cold starting. The gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the transom was attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could be removed and the engine installed to the transmission. Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage to sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside and outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the longitudinals welded on but before they were pulled together and welded up. This seems simpler than trying to perform these operations later, particularly on the inside. Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building platform from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed boat onto a trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about $600, I think, but would have to be shortened and modified to suit the tow vehicle. I have seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed semitrailers advertised for as little as $2000, and that would seem a more substantial base and safer transport to the water, as well as having resale value. Would require a road tractor, though, which I am able to drive and which would also have some utility and resale value. What do you think? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5204|5204|2004-08-27 14:35:58|Robert Gainer|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Gord, Talk about rattling your chains. I hope your engine doesn�t vibrate much All the best, Robert Gainer >From: gschnell >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:55:07 -0700 > >An old "off-roaders" solution to this problem is a length of chain >(slacked), bolted to each engine mount and to a longitudunal frame >nearby. This will prevent the engine from "romping around the cabin" >should the existing motor mounts fail. >Gord > > >ge@... wrote: > > > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both mounts > > would > > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > > seaway, if > > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a 500 > > lb > > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has been > > > > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > > similar to > > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal mounted > > at > > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like the > > other > > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject to > > fatigue and failure without warning. > > > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > > standard is > > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when > > the > > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, they > > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings for > > ABS and > > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > > fatigue? Has > > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be considered > > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > > This > > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any > > reason to > > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > > scantlings > > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser scantlings > > than is > > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to make > > them > > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that > > > > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > > > > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > > > > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > > after . > > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always > > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > > cases > > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your > > > > > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with > > > > > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember > > well > > > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They > > were > > > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that > > > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > > >> > > >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > > > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then > > > > > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago > > > > > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > > > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but > > no > > > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are > > > > > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > > > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view > > > of origami is biased. > > >> > > >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that > > > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > > > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > > > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > > > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > > > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > > > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > > >> > > >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > > > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead > > to > > > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks > > > > > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > > > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > > > the skeg and rudder. > > >> > > >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > > > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > > > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > > > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > > > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, > > and > > > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well > > > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus > > > > > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > > > with a girder system between. > > >> > > >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > > > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > > >> > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > >> > > >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small > > > > > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > > > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > > >> > > >> Greg Elliott > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: silascrosby > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > >> > > >> > > >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > > >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > > >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > > >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash > > >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of > > > > > is > > >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > > >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > > >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > > >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > > > number > > >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > > >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. > > > > >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > > > Suva,Fiji > > >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > > > old > > >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to > > > BC. > > >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > > >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > > >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between > > > NZ > > >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container > > > > > or > > >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > > >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > > > harbour > > >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > > >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > > > engine > > >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > > > flange. > > >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or > > >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > > >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > > >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > > > motoring > > >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > > > Monica). > > >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > > > hit > > >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed > > > the > > >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > > >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > > >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell > > > it > > >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > > > except > > >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > > >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit > > > > > a > > >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale > > >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > > > keel > > >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was > > > > > on > > >> the floor,jam-side down. > > >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > > >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > > > others. > > >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is > > > > >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper > > >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > > > managed > > >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > > >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in > > >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > > > twin > > >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > > > Allison > > >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > > > were > > >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > > > at > > >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > > >> along.Excellent sailing. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > >> ADVERTISEMENT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > >> > > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > > > Service. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! 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Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/| 5205|5190|2004-08-27 19:42:47|brentswain38|Re: Boat building materials|I've never heard of a ferro cement boat having structural failure in rough weather at sea, even tho some have experienced extreme conditions.However , they tend to be quite fragile when they encounter a solid object. I found this out the hard way when my first boat, a ferrocement 36 footer, blew oto a Fijian coral reef in 1975 She broke up, as the Fijians said, like a watermelon dropped on a sidewalk, in very moderate conditions. A steel boat would not have even dented in the same conditions, 15 knots of wind blowing accross 15 miles of lagoon. If you get one cheap enough , and use it for a couple of years ,it will owe you nothing, and you'll be money ahead even iff you abandon her. The hulls can be extremely maintenance free. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > Even though this is a website for steel origami building, the > ferrocement alternative has been brought up and as I read it, in > quite negative terms. My intent is not to start a ferrocement > discussion here, but I feel like chiming in with a supplement to > some of what was stated before. > I have never built a ferro-hull myself, but I did study the subject > quite a bit some 30 years ago. As far as I can see, there are some > very well developed designs available to produce high quality, safe > and seaworthy boats about 40' and more. Like any other building > material/method, it can be abused and you will find examples all > over the quality range from the worst to the excellent. A properly > designed and built ferro-hull is probably the most durable material > there is and in terms of strength and toughness I would subjectively > place it between "plastic" and steel. It is also quite easy to > repair (contrary to popular belief) if it has got a heavy impact > somewhere, causing deformation and microcracking. > My friend Anders Eriksson has sailed single handed twice around the > world, is now running a marina in Sweden and is a professional sea > Captain. His current long-haul sailboat (Concreta) is a ferro-boat > of about 45' that nobody would be able to identify as such without a > closer inspection. The boat is an excellent example of a well > constructed ferrocement hull and I have a hard time believing that a > guy with his background and experience would own and operate it if > ferrocement would have major flaws in the outset. > As have been stated already: Regardless of selected hull material, > design and construction has to be right and then there are several > fully functional alternatives available to the serious boat builder. | 5206|5168|2004-08-27 19:57:53|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non that I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for many decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, not a shortcomming in the method. With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the centreline as possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times more prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it as solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, but it will be much quieter and more vibration free. I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on rubber to hold the engine in place. I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been thru contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their scantlings. So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs been thru? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both mounts would > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a seaway, if > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a 500 lb > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has been > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, similar to > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal mounted at > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like the other > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject to > fatigue and failure without warning. > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is standard is > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when the > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, they > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings for ABS and > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for fatigue? Has > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be considered > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. This > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any reason to > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven scantlings > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser scantlings than is > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to make them > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > after . > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many cases > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your > > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with > > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember well > > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They were > > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that > > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > >> > >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then > > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago > > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but no > > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are > > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view > > of origami is biased. > >> > >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that > > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > >> > >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead to > > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks > > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > > the skeg and rudder. > >> > >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, and > > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well > > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus > > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > > with a girder system between. > >> > >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > >> > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> > >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small > > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: silascrosby > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash > >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of > > is > >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > > number > >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. > >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > > Suva,Fiji > >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > > old > >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to > > BC. > >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between > > NZ > >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container > > or > >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > > harbour > >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > > engine > >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > > flange. > >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or > >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > > motoring > >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > > Monica). > >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > > hit > >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed > > the > >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell > > it > >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > > except > >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit > > a > >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale > >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > > keel > >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was > > on > >> the floor,jam-side down. > >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > > others. > >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is > >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper > >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > > managed > >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in > >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > > twin > >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > > Allison > >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > > were > >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > > at > >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > >> along.Excellent sailing. > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > ---------- > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5207|5203|2004-08-27 23:17:23|fmichael graham|Re: Lister engines|Richard: I think that anything that makes your life easier in the building/launching of your boat is a good thing. The Lister engine is a very good idea. I hope that you don't have a patent on it as I was also contemplating an engine with a manual start. It seems to me, that the metal protectant would best be applied when the welding/grinding is completed. The trailer is a great idea if available & affordable. The more posts that you can make like this one, the greater value that I find in being a member of this group. Keep up the good work. By the way, if you have a spare, modified skeg attachment up your sleeve, I know someone who's looking for one! Regards, Mike Graham RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under my belt, and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out with you guys some ideas that seem practical to me. First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister (with a dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and its liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as well as able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the engine can be installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the water. Finally, Listers are available on the used and new markets in the form of generator sets, and could be used to power a welder from the very beginning of the project. Before sailing, the builder would be thoroughly familiar with the operation and quirks of his particular engine, including hand starting and cold starting. The gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the transom was attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could be removed and the engine installed to the transmission. Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage to sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside and outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the longitudinals welded on but before they were pulled together and welded up. This seems simpler than trying to perform these operations later, particularly on the inside. Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building platform from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed boat onto a trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about $600, I think, but would have to be shortened and modified to suit the tow vehicle. I have seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed semitrailers advertised for as little as $2000, and that would seem a more substantial base and safer transport to the water, as well as having resale value. Would require a road tractor, though, which I am able to drive and which would also have some utility and resale value. What do you think? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5208|5159|2004-08-28 05:21:01|ben_azo|Re: Origami Chat ?|Hi young Ben , great idea : the Ben's Chat in Origami I am an easy going man so any time convenient for you is fine to me , please advise what you prefer with GMT or London time as ref : whe ( in with Central European Time ) are 1 hour later than London . Being an old Fishing Boat Captain I am used to a round the clock watch and on Sunday even until 6 am Monday I am happy with your choice . Don't upset the wife or the family during a meal. You choose the subject or if I may suggest one : why planing aftsections are an important safety factor in the latest waterlines developments for sailing boats ; but feel free to enter any boating or jokes subject ( since yesterday Interbrew and its new Brasilian partner IS the largest Beer maker in the World ; and Belgian Beer sure is a wide topic :-) Lets hope we attract some more members and lets trye to make this a worthwile chat for others to participate in to. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi Older Ben > > The chat idea sounds like fun, > Two makes a conversation so suggest a time, and some instructions on > how "chat"! > > Cheers > > Young Ben > > > > Why not organise an open , unmoderated , frank Chat session ? > > It has been organised with some succes in other Groups , > > on a weekly basis . > > > Old Ben | 5209|5203|2004-08-28 06:02:20|sae140|Re: Lister engines (and paint)|Yes, I agree - a welcomed constructive post. You mention the positive aspects of air-cooled engines - there are a couple of negatives too - they tend to be a lot noisier, and as you'd be fitting an air-cooled engine into a relatively confined space you'd need to address the difficult issue of ventilation. Not sure about leaving the transom off, as this is an integral 'shaping' component and really needs to be fitted early on - however if memory serves, Brent recommends leaving the footwell/ cockpit area open until after the engine install is completed, to give maximum accessibility. This would also serve your purpose ? Personally, for those of us without access to pre-primed steel, I think sandblasting the interior surfaces at the 'two half shells' stage is probably favourite, with the exterior being blasted either then or at completion. I think the trailer idea is good in principle, but I'm mindful that the only trailers available in the UK at a fair price are invariably not 'plated' (i.e. certified roadworthy). If they're plated they cost a lot more. Rental is high too. Hopefully it's a rosier picture elsewhere. It might be of passing interest that I've been trying to find an alternative to sandblasting for quite a while now. The only 'possible' I've found is a paint called 'Hammerite', which is now being marketed by ICI (formerly made by Finnegans) as a "Direct to Rust" product, and one which is also suitable for the marine/coastal environment. However, when approached, ICI state that this is not a hull coating - period. However, I do know that it is used by shell-fishermen for protecting their tidal angle-iron cages, and from my own experience you really have to grind this stuff off any surface it adheres to. I would have thought it would have made an excellent hull coating, but I don't feel brave enough to experiment on a good hull. Also, I can't believe that ICI would pass up on such a lucrative money-spinner. The only disadvantages of this (single part) paint are the cure time - 2nd coat within 6 hours, or wait 3 months (!), and it's unwillingness to be over-coated with any other kind of paint system - although I'm wondering if Brent's technique of swapping-over paint systems whilst still tacky (as explained in his book) might also work here ..... But first I'd better check, has anybody got any seawater experience with this product ? Colin| 5210|5159|2004-08-28 06:48:26|denis buggy|Re: Origami Chat ?|dear old ben . thanks for the belated warning that you all turn vicious at mealtimes and forgive my obvious lack of sophistication on not anticipating this fact when posting. good luck with the independent Belgian beer drinkers forum . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami Chat ? Hi young Ben , great idea : the Ben's Chat in Origami I am an easy going man so any time convenient for you is fine to me , please advise what you prefer with GMT or London time as ref : whe ( in with Central European Time ) are 1 hour later than London . Being an old Fishing Boat Captain I am used to a round the clock watch and on Sunday even until 6 am Monday I am happy with your choice . Don't upset the wife or the family during a meal. You choose the subject or if I may suggest one : why planing aftsections are an important safety factor in the latest waterlines developments for sailing boats ; but feel free to enter any boating or jokes subject ( since yesterday Interbrew and its new Brasilian partner IS the largest Beer maker in the World ; and Belgian Beer sure is a wide topic :-) Lets hope we attract some more members and lets trye to make this a worthwile chat for others to participate in to. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi Older Ben > > The chat idea sounds like fun, > Two makes a conversation so suggest a time, and some instructions on > how "chat"! > > Cheers > > Young Ben > > > > Why not organise an open , unmoderated , frank Chat session ? > > It has been organised with some succes in other Groups , > > on a weekly basis . > > > Old Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5211|5211|2004-08-28 06:51:19|rainmaker19542002|Steel, Rust, and Ospho?|I'm in the process of purchasing a 43' steel hulled trawler built in 1978 by T.D. Vinette in Escanaba, MI. When I first looked at the boat I was amazed by the construction and the condition of the hull. It's built lika a wooden boat in that it has 3/16" plating, 1/4" X 1" longitudinals on 12" centers from the keel to the chine and the chine to the deck. The longitudinals are welded to the frames which are on on 36" centers... NICE. During the survey, I had the boat hauled and the hull Audio- Gauged. The plating thicknesses showed little or no wear (corrosion) from the original plating thicknesses after 26 years. The current owner swears by a product made by a company called Skyco named "Ospho", a phosphoric acid product that converts the iron oxide (rust) into inert iron phoshate and stops the corrosion action. The only areas where rust ever formed was near the garboard strakes, and this was converted to the tough black iron phosphate coating that I saw. Is this greenish liquid "manna from heaven" to the steel boat owner? It's the first time I've heard if it, but I can't argue with what I saw. Anybody with experience using this stuff?| 5212|5203|2004-08-28 07:57:09|Gerd|paint on rust|hi Colin - been looking for stuff like that also. hammerite is in the shops here, but not really cheap. They got this ad on tv with the guy with the rusty motorbike in a tidal harbour.. ;-) I hate blasting, done it several times and inside blasting is undescribable, plain hell. So I would be willing to compromise: blast and epoxy first class fot the outsides for best results, and then try to find something sloppy fast abd cheap inside. Unfortunately most of the rust converters etc require that the steel is fully rusted, no slag left... meaning inside you would have to help rusting, maybe spraying with water every day for weeks or so.. ? Anybody else for a new round on "how to paint cheap, easy and good?"? Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5213|5211|2004-08-28 09:03:12|Courtney Thomas|Re: Steel, Rust, and Ospho?|I use it on already rusted chain, anchor, trailer or any other steel component in the marine environment and am satisfied with the results over the years. No scraping, painting, sanding, blasting, etc..... I keep a spray bottle of it around all the time. I suppose it goes something like..... Fe2O3 + 2[H3(PO4)] <-> 2[Fe(PO4)] + 3 H2O HTH Courtney rainmaker19542002 wrote: > I'm in the process of purchasing a 43' steel hulled trawler built in > 1978 by T.D. Vinette in Escanaba, MI. When I first looked at the > boat I was amazed by the construction and the condition of the hull. > It's built lika a wooden boat in that it has 3/16" plating, 1/4" X 1" > longitudinals on 12" centers from the keel to the chine and the chine > to the deck. The longitudinals are welded to the frames which are on > on 36" centers... NICE. > During the survey, I had the boat hauled and the hull Audio- > Gauged. The plating thicknesses showed little or no wear (corrosion) > from the original plating thicknesses after 26 years. The current > owner swears by a product made by a company called Skyco > named "Ospho", a phosphoric acid product that converts the iron oxide > (rust) into inert iron phoshate and stops the corrosion action. The > only areas where rust ever formed was near the garboard strakes, and > this was converted to the tough black iron phosphate coating that I > saw. > > Is this greenish liquid "manna from heaven" to the steel boat owner? > It's the first time I've heard if it, but I can't argue with what I > saw. Anybody with experience using this stuff? > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5214|5214|2004-08-28 11:02:20|Lee Corbridge, DVM|20' steel sailboat|I have been a lurker for a while and I have a question for the group. I have always been an admirer of Bruce Bingham's "Flicka". Is it possible to build a Flicka out of steel or aluminum or will the boat be too heavy? Would twin keels for shallow draft be possible? Just thinking out loud. ;-) Flicka website : http://www.coslink.net/personal/flickafriends/mainpage/ Thanks in advance ... Keep Looking Up Doc Lee Corbridge, DVM ~ allcritters@... http://www.allcritters.com ~ Sebring, FL Member AVMA, AAFP ~ USDA Accredited Practice Limited To Cats Of All Sizes -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Life is about creating yourself." -- George Bernard Shaw "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead| 5215|5211|2004-08-28 11:21:47|bilgekeeldave|Re: Steel, Rust, and Ospho?|As a merchant seaman, I have seen Ospho used for years, on merchant vessels, to treat bare steel prior to priming and painting. It is an excellent product. Dave The current > owner swears by a product made by a company called Skyco > named "Ospho", a phosphoric acid product that converts the iron oxide > (rust) into inert iron phoshate and stops the corrosion action. The > only areas where rust ever formed was near the garboard strakes, and > this was converted to the tough black iron phosphate coating that I > saw. > > Is this greenish liquid "manna from heaven" to the steel boat owner? > It's the first time I've heard if it, but I can't argue with what I > saw. Anybody with experience using this stuff? | 5216|104|2004-08-28 13:07:36|SHANE ROTHWELL|Paint|Colin mentioned a product by ICI that was used straight on rust what worked well. "Neutra Rust 661" is a British product used on the North Sea oil rigs & works a treat. Overcoat in about 12 hrs, H2o cleanup, overcoatable. exellent stuff. it was available in Hong Kong but cant seem to find it here in BC. Every other rust "converter' I've tries had been virtually useless. Anyone know where I can get my hands on this stuff? Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5217|5203|2004-08-28 14:25:38|David K McComber|Re: Lister engines|In the U.S.A. the federal law requires a water cooled exhaust manifold, even in an air cooled engine. I believe it is the 1941 motorboat act. I once had an air cooled outboard that hade a water pump just to cool the exhaust. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@...] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 11:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lister engines Richard: I think that anything that makes your life easier in the building/launching of your boat is a good thing. The Lister engine is a very good idea. I hope that you don't have a patent on it as I was also contemplating an engine with a manual start. It seems to me, that the metal protectant would best be applied when the welding/grinding is completed. The trailer is a great idea if available & affordable. The more posts that you can make like this one, the greater value that I find in being a member of this group. Keep up the good work. By the way, if you have a spare, modified skeg attachment up your sleeve, I know someone who's looking for one! Regards, Mike Graham RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under my belt, and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out with you guys some ideas that seem practical to me. First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister (with a dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and its liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as well as able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the engine can be installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the water. Finally, Listers are available on the used and new markets in the form of generator sets, and could be used to power a welder from the very beginning of the project. Before sailing, the builder would be thoroughly familiar with the operation and quirks of his particular engine, including hand starting and cold starting. The gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the transom was attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could be removed and the engine installed to the transmission. Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage to sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside and outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the longitudinals welded on but before they were pulled together and welded up. This seems simpler than trying to perform these operations later, particularly on the inside. Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building platform from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed boat onto a trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about $600, I think, but would have to be shortened and modified to suit the tow vehicle. I have seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed semitrailers advertised for as little as $2000, and that would seem a more substantial base and safer transport to the water, as well as having resale value. Would require a road tractor, though, which I am able to drive and which would also have some utility and resale value. What do you think? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5218|5203|2004-08-28 14:57:05|Robert Gainer|Re: Lister engines|How do all the fishing boats and tug boats get away with the dry stack exhaust then? Are commercial boats exempt from this law? Or is the manifold the only part of the system that is water cooled. All the best, Robert Gainer >From: "David K McComber" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Lister engines >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:23:04 -0400 > >In the U.S.A. the federal law requires a water cooled exhaust manifold, >even >in an air cooled engine. > >I believe it is the 1941 motorboat act. > >I once had an air cooled outboard that hade a water pump just to cool the >exhaust. > > > >David McComber > >d.mccomber@... > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@...] >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 11:17 PM >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lister engines > > > >Richard: >I think that anything that makes your life easier in the building/launching >of your boat is a good thing. The Lister engine is a very good idea. I hope >that you don't have a patent on it as I was also contemplating an engine >with a manual start. It seems to me, that the metal protectant would best >be >applied when the welding/grinding is completed. The trailer is a great idea >if available & affordable. The more posts that you can make like this one, >the greater value that I find in being a member of this group. Keep up the >good work. By the way, if you have a spare, modified skeg attachment up >your >sleeve, I know someone who's looking for one! >Regards, >Mike Graham > > >RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: >I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under my >belt, >and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out with you guys >some ideas that seem practical to me. >First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister (with a >dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and its >liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as well as >able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the engine can be >installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the water. Finally, >Listers are available on the used and new markets in the form of generator >sets, and could be used to power a welder from the very beginning of the >project. Before sailing, the builder would be thoroughly familiar with the >operation and quirks of his particular engine, including hand starting and >cold starting. The gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the >transom was attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could >be >removed and the engine installed to the transmission. >Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage to >sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside and >outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the longitudinals >welded on but before they were pulled together and welded up. This seems >simpler than trying to perform these operations later, particularly on the >inside. >Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building platform >from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed boat onto a >trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about $600, I think, but >would have to be shortened and modified to suit the tow vehicle. I have >seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed semitrailers advertised for as >little as $2000, and that would seem a more substantial base and safer >transport to the water, as well as having resale value. Would require a >road tractor, though, which I am able to drive and which would also have >some utility and resale value. >What do you think? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > >--------------------------------- >Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >ADVERTISEMENT > >oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093749443/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http:/www.n >etflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298> click here > > > >:HM/A=2319501/rand=629046166> > > > > _____ > >Yahoo! Groups Links > >* To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > >* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/| 5219|5214|2004-08-28 15:17:11|ben_azo|Re: 20' steel sailboat|Hi Doc, Flica is a great boat and she can be build in steel or aluminum . To see a more modern shall draft hullform see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ and find Folder : Puck19' ,pics,plans&info in Files ; Dutch&English Press & German Press Testsail as Bookmarks in Links and some pics in Photos Have a look at the 7.7 in Files & see the pretty profile pic. If you have a real interest having one build in Copper-nickel steel Origamimagic.com sure has the program to see if she can be build in Origami steel , I think it can be done and build to classification scantlings wich will make insurance and finance cheaper and assures a higher resale value . Some adaptation to be made to the design thats all, she sure is a fast boat ( she easely outsails a 7.5m waterlinelenght boat, see the German Testreport and a Belgian Pressreport of sailing her in Beaufort 7 to 8 with gusts up to Beaufort 9 is available in French. To much draft , just say what you want and I'll post a sound alternative. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Corbridge, DVM" wrote: > I have been a lurker for a while and I have a question for the group. > > I have always been an admirer of Bruce Bingham's "Flicka". Is it > possible to build a Flicka out of steel or aluminum or will the boat be > too heavy? Would twin keels for shallow draft be possible? Just > thinking out loud. ;-) > > Flicka website : > http://www.coslink.net/personal/flickafriends/mainpage/ > > Thanks in advance ... > Keep Looking Up > > Doc > > Lee Corbridge, DVM ~ allcritters@y... > http://www.allcritters.com ~ Sebring, FL > Member AVMA, AAFP ~ USDA Accredited > > Practice Limited To Cats Of All Sizes > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > "Life is about creating yourself." -- George Bernard Shaw > > "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; > indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead | 5220|5203|2004-08-28 15:18:41|robertgainer|Re: Lister engines|David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). I don't see any thing about any water required. In fact they say that an air-cooled diesel is permitted unlike gas engines, which seam to require water-cooling at all times with the exception of deck-mounted units. Boat less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers can use the ABYC standards and ignore this altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. Am I misreading this or has it been superseded by new regulations. All the best, Robert Gainer| 5221|5203|2004-08-28 15:24:57|fmichael graham|Re: Lister engines (and paint)|Colin, et al: wouldn't a better procedure be to order your steel as wheel-abraded, zinc coated and, after the welding/grinding phase, paint the unprotected surfaces with an anti-oxidant? Just a thought. Regards, Mike sae140 wrote: "... It might be of passing interest that I've been trying to find an alternative to sandblasting for quite a while now..." --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5222|5214|2004-08-28 15:38:24|fmichael graham|Re: 20' steel sailboat|"Doc": On cursory glance, yes, you could build "Flicka" in aluminum. Regards, Mike "Lee Corbridge, DVM" wrote: "... Is it possible to build a Flicka out of steel or aluminum or will the boat be too heavy?..." --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5223|1565|2004-08-28 17:08:28|buckrogers1234|sandblasting|I wonder if using a wire wheel on a angle grinder on the outside hull steel is good enough for painting below the water line, rather than sandblasting? Would this roughen the steel enough to hold the paint? Brian| 5224|1565|2004-08-28 17:31:12|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: sandblasting|nope. when you sandblast it right the steel feels like sandpaper. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5225|5211|2004-08-28 17:43:32|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: Steel, Rust, and Ospho?|Hi guys, somebody posted a recipe not too long ago on how to make this stuff for your self. I'm not a chemist but it was something like phoporic acid part one and water part 3. Maybe somebody saved it. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5226|5203|2004-08-28 18:29:51|brentswain38|Re: Lister engines|I used a 10 HP aircooled diesel in my current boat for the first 12 years. It was very simple and hand startable . It was very noisy and difficult to get the heat out of the cabin, despite many attempts at fans , etc. The lister has built in ducting ,which is a major advantage . As for eliminating thru hulls , you do that with keel cooling and dry exhuast. On the metal boat society website one diesel mechanic is quoted as saying that if everyone went for dry exhuast and keel cooling the diesel repair people would all be out of business. A couple of friends that I left Tonga with the summer bfore last had gone thru 2 diesels since 1996 ,both destroyed by condensation from a wet exhuast. Flame sprayed metal could be hard to weld thru if it were a bit thick in places. It would be better to use wheelabraded and primes steel to begin with , as primer is much easier to blast off when you are ready to flame spray. A hull could be cranked onto a flatbed easily before the ballast went in, with a couple of comealongs and turfers and hydralic jacks. One client put his bare hull on a trailer to get the local bureacrats off his back. Being on a trailer meant hat it was officially being worked on instead of being built and thus didn't need a building permit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under my belt, and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out with you guys some ideas that seem practical to me. > First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister (with a dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and its liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as well as able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the engine can be installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the water. Finally, Listers are available on the used and new markets in the form of generator sets, and could be used to power a welder from the very beginning of the project. Before sailing, the builder would be thoroughly familiar with the operation and quirks of his particular engine, including hand starting and cold starting. The gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the transom was attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could be removed and the engine installed to the transmission. > Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage to sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside and outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the longitudinals welded on but before they were pulled together and welded up. This seems simpler than trying to perform these operations later, particularly on the inside. > Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building platform from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed boat onto a trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about $600, I think, but would have to be shortened and modified to suit the tow vehicle. I have seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed semitrailers advertised for as little as $2000, and that would seem a more substantial base and safer transport to the water, as well as having resale value. Would require a road tractor, though, which I am able to drive and which would also have some utility and resale value. > What do you think? > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5227|1565|2004-08-28 18:34:42|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|A wire wheel would polish the surface and leave the harder rust behind to cause further problems. A rigid grinding disc would take it to bare metal and work better but not as rough a surface as sandblasting. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "buckrogers1234" wrote: > I wonder if using a wire wheel on a angle grinder on the outside > hull steel is good enough for painting below the water line, rather > than sandblasting? Would this roughen the steel enough to hold the > paint? > Brian | 5228|5203|2004-08-28 19:50:01|carlmbentley|Re: Lister engines (and paint)|unless pre-primed isn't available --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Colin, et al: > wouldn't a better procedure be to order your steel as wheel- abraded, zinc coated and, after the welding/grinding phase, paint the unprotected surfaces with an anti-oxidant? Just a thought. > Regards, > Mike | 5229|5203|2004-08-28 21:32:37|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Lister engines|Brent wrote: <<>> Just to add to what Brent has stated: I have a piece of sheet metal that has been flame sprayed with zinc. I have used it to conduct several tests. One of the tests, I welded a piece of bar stock to the zinc covered plate without removing the zinc. My MIG laid a beautiful 6" weld in the V grove created by laying the bar stock 90 degrees to the plate. When I stood the plate up the bar stock fell off and the entire weld still stuck to the bar stock. My thought was that welding zinc would be the same as welding galvanized but in my one and only experiment it didn't work out that way. I have since removed some of the zinc by sand blasting an area before welding and the weld held perfectly. I for one don't want any zinc mixed in with my welds. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I used a 10 HP aircooled diesel in my current boat for the first 12 > years. It was very simple and hand startable . It was very noisy and > difficult to get the heat out of the cabin, despite many attempts at > fans , etc. The lister has built in ducting ,which is a major > advantage . > As for eliminating thru hulls , you do that with keel cooling and > dry exhuast. On the metal boat society website one diesel mechanic is > quoted as saying that if everyone went for dry exhuast and keel > cooling the diesel repair people would all be out of business. > A couple of friends that I left Tonga with the summer bfore last had > gone thru 2 diesels since 1996 ,both destroyed by condensation from a > wet exhuast. > Flame sprayed metal could be hard to weld thru if it were a bit > thick in places. It would be better to use wheelabraded and primes > steel to begin with , as primer is much easier to blast off when you > are ready to flame spray. > A hull could be cranked onto a flatbed easily before the ballast > went in, with a couple of comealongs and turfers and hydralic jacks. > One client put his bare hull on a trailer to get the local bureacrats > off his back. Being on a trailer meant hat it was officially being > worked on instead of being built and thus didn't need a building > permit. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR > wrote: > > I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under > my belt, and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out > with you guys some ideas that seem practical to me. > > First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister > (with a dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and > its liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as > well as able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the > engine can be installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the > water. Finally, Listers are available on the used and new markets > in the form of generator sets, and could be used to power a welder > from the very beginning of the project. Before sailing, the builder > would be thoroughly familiar with the operation and quirks of his > particular engine, including hand starting and cold starting. The > gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the transom was > attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could be > removed and the engine installed to the transmission. > > Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage > to sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside > and outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the > longitudinals welded on but before they were pulled together and > welded up. This seems simpler than trying to perform these > operations later, particularly on the inside. > > Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building > platform from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed > boat onto a trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about > $600, I think, but would have to be shortened and modified to suit > the tow vehicle. I have seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed > semitrailers advertised for as little as $2000, and that would seem a > more substantial base and safer transport to the water, as well as > having resale value. Would require a road tractor, though, which I > am able to drive and which would also have some utility and resale > value. > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5230|5203|2004-08-29 03:07:22|David K McComber|Re: Lister engines|Yes it is just the manifold. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 2:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Lister engines How do all the fishing boats and tug boats get away with the dry stack exhaust then? Are commercial boats exempt from this law? Or is the manifold the only part of the system that is water cooled. All the best, Robert Gainer >From: "David K McComber" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Lister engines >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:23:04 -0400 > >In the U.S.A. the federal law requires a water cooled exhaust manifold, >even >in an air cooled engine. > >I believe it is the 1941 motorboat act. > >I once had an air cooled outboard that hade a water pump just to cool the >exhaust. > > > >David McComber > >d.mccomber@... > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: fmichael graham [mailto:intiaboats@...] >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 11:17 PM >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lister engines > > > >Richard: >I think that anything that makes your life easier in the building/launching >of your boat is a good thing. The Lister engine is a very good idea. I hope >that you don't have a patent on it as I was also contemplating an engine >with a manual start. It seems to me, that the metal protectant would best >be >applied when the welding/grinding is completed. The trailer is a great idea >if available & affordable. The more posts that you can make like this one, >the greater value that I find in being a member of this group. Keep up the >good work. By the way, if you have a spare, modified skeg attachment up >your >sleeve, I know someone who's looking for one! >Regards, >Mike Graham > > >RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: >I am only an armchair sailor, with many more pages than miles under my >belt, >and little experience at building, so I wanted to check out with you guys >some ideas that seem practical to me. >First, using an air-cooled, hand start capable engine like a Lister (with a >dry exhaust) eliminates at least one through-hull fitting and its >liabilities, and is simpler than a fresh water cooling system, as well as >able to start with no or dead batteries. In addition, the engine can be >installed and *test run* before the vessel is in the water. Finally, >Listers are available on the used and new markets in the form of generator >sets, and could be used to power a welder from the very beginning of the >project. Before sailing, the builder would be thoroughly familiar with the >operation and quirks of his particular engine, including hand starting and >cold starting. The gen set could be hoisted inside the hull before the >transom was attached, and when welding was completed, the generator could >be >removed and the engine installed to the transmission. >Second idea/inquiry is whether there would be significant advantage to >sandblasting and priming or flame spraying the hull plates (inside and >outside) flat on the ground after they were cut out and the longitudinals >welded on but before they were pulled together and welded up. This seems >simpler than trying to perform these operations later, particularly on the >inside. >Third nutball idea is to use a trailer as a solid, level building platform >from the beginning rather than having to hoist the completed boat onto a >trailer for transport. Mobile home platforms cost about $600, I think, but >would have to be shortened and modified to suit the tow vehicle. I have >seen older, spring ride, double drop flatbed semitrailers advertised for as >little as $2000, and that would seem a more substantial base and safer >transport to the water, as well as having resale value. Would require a >road tractor, though, which I am able to drive and which would also have >some utility and resale value. >What do you think? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > >--------------------------------- >Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >ADVERTISEMENT > >oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1093749443/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http:/www. n >etflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298> click here > > > >:HM/A=2319501/rand=629046166> > > > > _____ > >Yahoo! Groups Links > >* To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > >* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5231|5203|2004-08-29 03:46:02|David K McComber|Re: Lister engines|Maybe they have changed the rules? David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: robertgainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 3:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lister engines David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). I don't see any thing about any water required. In fact they say that an air-cooled diesel is permitted unlike gas engines, which seam to require water-cooling at all times with the exception of deck-mounted units. Boat less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers can use the ABYC standards and ignore this altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. Am I misreading this or has it been superseded by new regulations. All the best, Robert Gainer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5232|5232|2004-08-29 07:31:04|Gerald Niffenegger|Motor mounts|I have just hoisted the Yanmar 33 HP motor into place, inside the boat. It weighs in at 370 kilos. I had the motor setting in my shop on some wooden blocks and started it several times. It was so smooth that it didn't vibrate off the blocks. However, since it was not bolted down it was kind of hard to hand start. I am wondering if rubber motor mounts are really necessary? If I were installing my one cyl., air cooled, Toyama, I would say yes but this motor is pretty smooth. Gerald| 5233|5233|2004-08-29 13:12:45|John Waalkes|Corrosion, ospho, ect|I first saw this product when working on St Paul Island in Bering Sea winter of 88-89. Some of the old timers insisted on the use. It was a must use prior to any final finish. Automobiles are commonly coated on exterior with rubberized undercoating as a final paint finish as std sheetmeatal will rust away within a couple of yrs. Fog always tastes salty and there is almost always fog. Six days a year of full sunshine. I now keep a bottle in my garage for treating eveything prior to paint. You must have rust for it to work so normally prep consists of grinding/ sanding ect than spraying with water leaving over night to surface rust, coat with Ospho letting dry, if everthing is black and dry wipe off slight white powder if still rust visable coat again, repeat as necessary untill all rust converted. Prime and paint with your favorite finish according to manufactures direction. I agree with Brent that properly installed zincs eliminate most corrosion problems. My wooden boat has a cast iron keel and it eats zinks and I have learned a lot about proper bonding over the 11 yrs of ownership. It's a question of who owns who. John PS: NAPA has a rust conversion product that is thicker and seems to work as a one coat primer, no real long term trials but may be easier to use. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5234|5232|2004-08-29 15:28:27|denis buggy|Re: Motor mounts|dear Gerald rubber mounts are essential and you must take care that they are the proper ones for your engine . almost every single nut and bolt will unwind due to excess vibration including bell housing bolts not visible as they are behind the flywheel and bolts loose are an evil thing they will destroy the threads in the block and make oval holes where they need to be a snug fit to line everything up properly and to prevent the engine from chewing up all the bearings in the box while it all looks fine from the outside . you must use feeler gauges to line up the drive end of the gearbox flange with the prop shaft flange in order to avoid vibration there also before you tighten bolts . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Motor mounts I have just hoisted the Yanmar 33 HP motor into place, inside the boat. It weighs in at 370 kilos. I had the motor setting in my shop on some wooden blocks and started it several times. It was so smooth that it didn't vibrate off the blocks. However, since it was not bolted down it was kind of hard to hand start. I am wondering if rubber motor mounts are really necessary? If I were installing my one cyl., air cooled, Toyama, I would say yes but this motor is pretty smooth. Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5235|5235|2004-08-30 14:10:38|johaan2002|stress analysis|yes i have to agree with the analogy about the fokker aircraft, but first lets get something straight, im not an engineer or a materials technologist however i am a welder, and i build railway cars, after having talked to some of the engineers (the guys in labcoats with the really cool shiny hardhats:) i have realized some similarities between the railcar im currently working on (build 5 a day) and the hull of an origami vessel. railways need to buy new railcars because they (cars) have a lifecycle. i.e. the engineers know how many times the car's monocoque can flex before it becomes structually inadequate and is prone to failure, however the frequencies of the cycling and the lifespans are terribly different in trains and boats i presume. the second similarity is the safety factor, meaning the welding parameters needed to fulfill the joint strength specified, and that is a factor of quite a few percent, its called overkill. "value engineers" do it with the least possible metal to keep the company competitive by cutting costs. now several times i have looked at certain joints and thought... thats really strong enough? and thier answer to me is yes... and then they explain how exactly the strength to yield ratio affects stiffness and how it relates to frequency, we all know motor mounts have a different frequency imposed than the keel.. so can you really apply this to hull webs? i think not, HOWEVER the CONSTANT STRESS imposed on aircraft wings and keels are much the same (they are naca foils in different mediums) and the resonance is engineered to be at frequencies much higher or lower than what the system would ever see in normal operation (Vne hullspeed?) now my question to anyone doing a stress analysis with all the pretty colours is, under what parameters is that analysis, qouted numbers of 10,000 psi when most welds are ever made are to about 70,000psi (a safety factor of 7 times) and the metal next to it in the heat affected zone is only slightly below that. can a vibrationall analysis with a full size drawing of the hull /keel system be done? i personally agree with the idea of putting these questions up to a fourth year engineering class, i mean who says to put the stress point outside the hull, for the sake of rigidity wich contributed the early mono wing fokker crashes? and at what frequency? i know i dont offer any answers here but who am i to say.. besides life is about knowing what questions to ask and who to ask.....| 5236|5233|2004-08-30 18:25:23|kingsknight4life|Re: Corrosion, ??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Waalkes" wrote: > Anyone here try or heave heard of a product called "Rust bullet"? I s heard about it on the Metal Boatbuilding Society site and it looks promising. Sounds like it's a moisture cure urathane and it's suppossed to be better than Wasser or POR 15 PLUS no blasting required. Do a google search and you'll hit their website(s). Rowland| 5237|5237|2004-08-30 18:28:51|kingsknight4life|What size engine for the 36 footer??|I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. Thanks Rowland| 5238|5235|2004-08-30 19:28:21|sae140|Re: stress analysis| .... the CONSTANT STRESS imposed on aircraft wings and keels are much the same (they are naca foils in different mediums) and the resonance is engineered to be at frequencies much higher or lower than what the system would ever see in normal operation (Vne hullspeed?) Well I'm no stress engineer, and I appreciate you highlight "constant stress" but it seems to me that aircraft wings and a boat's underwater appendages experience stresses of very different kinds; stresses which are far from constant. As aircraft are bi-laterally symmetrical, both wings will experience near-identical stresses which can only be relieved by changing the attitude (angle of attack) of the aerofoil itself by means of the elevators, or by a reduction in airspeed. These are non-automatic operator adjustments - examples of open-loop control - which if not applied appropriately can result in catastrophic failure. In contrast, a monohull will automatically reduce the forces presented to it's keel, by heeling when subjected to any sideways force resulting from the movement of water passing under the boat. However, as we all know heeling also occurs as a result of air pressure on the sails, so unlike the aircraft wing, stresses applied to the keel are modulated both by the medium in which the keel itself sits, together with the effects from a medium in which the keel itself has no direct contact. This is a good example of closed-loop control with negative feedback - the greater the forces applied to the keel (and/or the sails !), the less vertical keel surface is presented, thus the forces applied to the keel are reduced. I think it would be difficult to mathematically model the stresses imposed on the keel(s) or skeg under these circumstances, for as the hull pitches and yaws, ever-changing forces will be presented to the keel(s) and skeg, which the boat will attempt to regulate by heeling. Add to this the three dimensional 'pendulum effect' which all ballasted keels experience - and I take my hat off to any mathematician brave enough to attempt to model the keel-to-hull interface stresses resulting from this dynamic situation with any degree of accuracy .... If ever there was a case for an empirical proof of strength, I'd say this was it ! Colin| 5239|5237|2004-08-30 22:11:55|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|In our area of BC I was able to find Volkswagen, Isuzu ( in a Chevy Vega ) and Nissan engines. The Volkswagen motors were around $1000- to $1250- and the Isuzu was $500- and the Nissan $600- I got the 2.5 litre Nissan because it has a gear driven cam and more torque but it is probably too much power for a 36 foot sailboat. The Isuzu has a belt driven cam which if maintained should give good service. The Nissan and Isuzu will do more than 4000 revs which also may be too much for a sailboat. 3000 is more than sufficient. If you are in Europe then there are a lot of others to chose from. Does anyone have the book about marine conversion for vehicle engines and gearboxes ? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5240|5232|2004-08-30 22:23:22|Michael Casling|Re: Motor mounts|There is a Yanmar help line www.yanmarhelp.com I think. There is a piece written about engine mounts. Not all of the mounts are soft. There has to be some vibration or harmonic frequency thing happening as they can not be totally smooth. I think rubber mounts are a good idea but other owners of steel boats may have had different results. Motorcycle motors used to be bolted solid to the frame and that would cause long term cracks but it took a very long time. Rubber mounts were used in newer models. The Yanmar mounts are designed so that the engine may move but the crank position stays fairly constant. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Motor mounts I have just hoisted the Yanmar 33 HP motor into place, inside the boat. It weighs in at 370 kilos. I had the motor setting in my shop on some wooden blocks and started it several times. It was so smooth that it didn't vibrate off the blocks. However, since it was not bolted down it was kind of hard to hand start. I am wondering if rubber motor mounts are really necessary? If I were installing my one cyl., air cooled, Toyama, I would say yes but this motor is pretty smooth. Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5241|5241|2004-08-31 00:42:29|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Ospho & other rust converters|Hi All, the beauty of using 'Neutra Rust 661 was that a light wirebrushing of the rust & a splash in fresh water, then drying was all that was needed to apply the stuff. then just slop it on & your right. a 2nd coat was good & it was good as a primer for most finishes. the hasstle with all the products i've tried here in Canada is that a> they didnt' seem to convert all the rust in the first coat b> they were fiddly to use c> needed to have at least 2 coats (whereas with neutra rust it was an option) c> the all needed another primer before coating with something elese c> and most anoying, they could not be applied over other coatings (and of course rust, whilst it never sleeps, if you are on top of things will not cover the whole piece so inevitably you will have some other material included in there that is not rust) so they were a pain in the ass to use What was the name of the product from Napa???? cheers, Shane > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:20:33 -0800 > From: "John Waalkes" > Subject: Corrosion, ospho, ect > > I first saw this product when working on St Paul > Island in Bering Sea winter of 88-89. Some of the > old timers insisted on the use. It was a must use > prior to any final finish. Automobiles are commonly > coated on exterior with rubberized undercoating as a > final paint finish as std sheetmeatal will rust away > within a couple of yrs. Fog always tastes salty and > there is almost always fog. Six days a year of full > sunshine. I now keep a bottle in my garage for > treating eveything prior to paint. You must have > rust for it to work so normally prep consists of > grinding/ sanding ect than spraying with water > leaving over night to surface rust, coat with Ospho > letting dry, if everthing is black and dry wipe off > slight white powder if still rust visable coat > again, repeat as necessary untill all rust > converted. Prime and paint with your favorite > finish according to manufactures direction. I agree > with Brent that properly installed zincs eliminate > most corrosion problems. My wooden boat has a cast > iron keel and it eats zinks and I have learned a lot > about proper bonding over the 11 yrs of ownership. > It's a question of who owns who. John PS: NAPA > has a rust conversion product that is thicker and > seems to work as a one coat primer, no real long > term trials but may be easier to use. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5242|5237|2004-08-31 01:49:12|ben_azo|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|I have some books about it , what info do you need ? Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > In our area of BC I was able to find Volkswagen, Isuzu ( in a Chevy Vega ) and Nissan engines. The Volkswagen motors were around $1000- to $1250- and the Isuzu was $500- and the Nissan $600- I got the 2.5 litre Nissan because it has a gear driven cam and more torque but it is probably too much power for a 36 foot sailboat. The Isuzu has a belt driven cam which if maintained should give good service. The Nissan and Isuzu will do more than 4000 revs which also may be too much for a sailboat. 3000 is more than sufficient. If you are in Europe then there are a lot of others to chose from. Does anyone have the book about marine conversion for vehicle engines and gearboxes ? Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > Thanks Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5243|5237|2004-08-31 03:41:04|denis buggy|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|dear Michael I do not know what you can rustle up but the best solution would be an engine which was 20% greater than your needs it may have to pull you NOW against a dangerous current while cold and sluggish and keep the revs as low as possible and the prop as big as possible is the formula for cargo and trawlers as you avoid cavitation as a propeller of a boat or plane has a finite level of efficiency . a small aircraft must have a gearbox to keep the prop speed below the speed of sound as it does not do the business above this . diesel engines were popular in the 1930s and the nazi,s used to fly Hamburg to Rio 11.000 miles non stop just for show in their dorniers while the rest of the world wet itself trying the gander Shannon route 3000miles . this is the efficiency of correctly matched prop to engine. your best engine is an industrial unit with an injector pump already set to steady revs and preferably with a cast iron head and steel timing gears . try small tractors and generators and air compressors for something that must stay going at steady revs for a long time the dressing of these engines will also be better ( filters starter alt brackets pulleys ect) a cast iron sleeve and head are essential, if you ask any of the race people how long do the give a aluminium head for competition they will tell you they discard them after each race. a car engine will rev more because they would need a 7 speed gearbox to cope with a low revs engine . your diffulty will be with the prop trying to use it and hide it when not in use is a problem and i know very little about this . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? In our area of BC I was able to find Volkswagen, Isuzu ( in a Chevy Vega ) and Nissan engines. The Volkswagen motors were around $1000- to $1250- and the Isuzu was $500- and the Nissan $600- I got the 2.5 litre Nissan because it has a gear driven cam and more torque but it is probably too much power for a 36 foot sailboat. The Isuzu has a belt driven cam which if maintained should give good service. The Nissan and Isuzu will do more than 4000 revs which also may be too much for a sailboat. 3000 is more than sufficient. If you are in Europe then there are a lot of others to chose from. Does anyone have the book about marine conversion for vehicle engines and gearboxes ? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5244|5237|2004-08-31 04:51:16|sae140|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > Thanks Rowland As you can't exceed hull speed (except at great expense), most experts use this (under flat calm conditions) as an upper limit when calculating their formulas. But the size of an ideal engine really depends on it's intended role: 10 to 15 HP would be adequate as a sailing auxilliary for getting in and out of berths and coping with zero wind, but if you want to punch into adverse headwinds then 35 HP or so might be more appropriate. As someone's already mentioned, slow-revving diesels (ex tractors, landrovers etc) are favourite, but converted car engines with a suitable box would still allow the use of a low-revving shaft and big prop, and *may* prove more cost-effective in the long term. Depends on what you can find, what your budget is, and how long you want the engine to last. There was a thread within the last month or so on drive-shafts/CV- axles which might be of interest. I've got a copy of Nigel Warren's book if you need more hard info on vehicle engine conversions, props, shafts and so on .... Colin| 5245|5237|2004-08-31 05:57:51|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Re engine sizes and other matters relating to diesel power plants: Large or small diesels do not have long lives if the fuel loading/output is low relative to their rated continuous output. The reasons are not simple, but if one looks at the causes, they relate to utilisation of the design output. If you choose a big one and don't run it at about an average of 75% of its continuous rating, the cylinder bores will glaze and the ring grooves will foul. Fuel consumption then rises and output falls. If you can calculate the hull drag at nominal hull speed, then look at Warren's and others prop efficiencies for your biggest diameter and RPM, you can get close to the output you need. It is not wise to oversize by more than 15 to 20% on the result. Hulls around 33ft LWL seem to have a clean drag/resistance of around 500 lbs. For the same reasoning, a small engine or solar or other source is better than the propulsion unit in battery charging situations. Terry -----Original Message----- From: sae140 [mailto:colinpowell@...] Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 18:20 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > Thanks Rowland As you can't exceed hull speed (except at great expense), most experts use this (under flat calm conditions) as an upper limit when calculating their formulas. But the size of an ideal engine really depends on it's intended role: 10 to 15 HP would be adequate as a sailing auxilliary for getting in and out of berths and coping with zero wind, but if you want to punch into adverse headwinds then 35 HP or so might be more appropriate. As someone's already mentioned, slow-revving diesels (ex tractors, landrovers etc) are favourite, but converted car engines with a suitable box would still allow the use of a low-revving shaft and big prop, and *may* prove more cost-effective in the long term. Depends on what you can find, what your budget is, and how long you want the engine to last. There was a thread within the last month or so on drive-shafts/CV- axles which might be of interest. I've got a copy of Nigel Warren's book if you need more hard info on vehicle engine conversions, props, shafts and so on .... Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5246|5232|2004-08-31 06:56:57|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Motor mounts|The Yanmar site is a good site for anyone installing any make engine. I originally ask the question about mounts because the local Yanmar dealer told me that no one uses mounts. He is also the same horses ass that would not give or sell me a meter of zinc wire so that I could try out my metal spray gun. I have decided to take my business elsewhere. Thanks Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > There is a Yanmar help line www.yanmarhelp.com I think. There is a piece written about engine mounts. Not all of the mounts are soft. There has to be some vibration or harmonic frequency thing happening as they can not be totally smooth. I think rubber mounts are a good idea but other owners of steel boats may have had different results. Motorcycle motors used to be bolted solid to the frame and that would cause long term cracks but it took a very long time. Rubber mounts were used in newer models. The Yanmar mounts are designed so that the engine may move but the crank position stays fairly constant. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:31 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Motor mounts > > > I have just hoisted the Yanmar 33 HP motor into place, inside the > boat. It weighs in at 370 kilos. I had the motor setting in my shop on > some wooden blocks and started it several times. It was so smooth that > it didn't vibrate off the blocks. However, since it was not bolted > down it was kind of hard to hand start. > I am wondering if rubber motor mounts are really necessary? If I were > installing my one cyl., air cooled, Toyama, I would say yes but this > motor is pretty smooth. > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5247|22|2004-08-31 10:43:22|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /maths & calculations/propcalc.xls Uploaded by : sae140 Description : propellor calculator (Excel file) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/maths%20%26%20calculations/propcalc.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, sae140 | 5248|5237|2004-08-31 11:22:46|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|I would like to purchase a book on the subject. It seems that the one by Nigel Warren might be the one I am after. But I would like to know if there are any other books on the subject, their title and who wrote them. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? I have some books about it , what info do you need ? Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > In our area of BC I was able to find Volkswagen, Isuzu ( in a Chevy Vega ) and Nissan engines. The Volkswagen motors were around $1000- to $1250- and the Isuzu was $500- and the Nissan $600- I got the 2.5 litre Nissan because it has a gear driven cam and more torque but it is probably too much power for a 36 foot sailboat. The Isuzu has a belt driven cam which if maintained should give good service. The Nissan and Isuzu will do more than 4000 revs which also may be too much for a sailboat. 3000 is more than sufficient. If you are in Europe then there are a lot of others to chose from. Does anyone have the book about marine conversion for vehicle engines and gearboxes ? Michael > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5249|5237|2004-08-31 11:24:01|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|It is Rowland who is looking for an engine. I have a 2.5 litre Nissan, but it is for my eighteen foot fishing boat where the power and revs can be used. It makes 110 foot pounds of torque and about 70 horsepower. I would think that 30 hp would be sufficient for a 36 foot steel boat. The Isuzu is about 50 hp so it might work okay. There are other industrial units available. Rowlands question was about car or truck motors. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: denis buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? dear Michael I do not know what you can rustle up but the best solution would be an engine which was 20% greater than your needs it may have to pull you NOW against a dangerous current while cold and sluggish and keep the revs as low as possible and the prop as big as possible is the formula for cargo and trawlers as you avoid cavitation as a propeller of a boat or plane has a finite level of efficiency . a small aircraft must have a gearbox to keep the prop speed below the speed of sound as it does not do the business above this . diesel engines were popular in the 1930s and the nazi,s used to fly Hamburg to Rio 11.000 miles non stop just for show in their dorniers while the rest of the world wet itself trying the gander Shannon route 3000miles . this is the efficiency of correctly matched prop to engine. your best engine is an industrial unit with an injector pump already set to steady revs and preferably with a cast iron head and steel timing gears . try small tractors and generators and air compressors for something that must stay going at steady revs for a long time the dressing of these engines will also be better ( filters starter alt brackets pulleys ect) a cast iron sleeve and head are essential, if you ask any of the race people how long do the give a aluminium head for competition they will tell you they discard them after each race. a car engine will rev more because they would need a 7 speed gearbox to cope with a low revs engine . your diffulty will be with the prop trying to use it and hide it when not in use is a problem and i know very little about this . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? In our area of BC I was able to find Volkswagen, Isuzu ( in a Chevy Vega ) and Nissan engines. The Volkswagen motors were around $1000- to $1250- and the Isuzu was $500- and the Nissan $600- I got the 2.5 litre Nissan because it has a gear driven cam and more torque but it is probably too much power for a 36 foot sailboat. The Isuzu has a belt driven cam which if maintained should give good service. The Nissan and Isuzu will do more than 4000 revs which also may be too much for a sailboat. 3000 is more than sufficient. If you are in Europe then there are a lot of others to chose from. Does anyone have the book about marine conversion for vehicle engines and gearboxes ? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5250|5168|2004-08-31 14:43:30|Michael Casling|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Greg continues to seize on the small problems and try and scare the bejesus out of us with tails of doom. The engine dancing around, the fourth attempt to bring up the skeg thing since he said he would drop it. The type of big brother regulation to satisfy this type of scare tactics would be horrendous, likely to the point that it would be deemed to be unsafe to go sailing off shore in a small boat. Some US designers have stopped drawing designs for home builders based on the potential liability. It is interesting that when we talk about very small boats we concentrate on the ability of the sailor, as the boats get bigger some want to concentrate on the boat. Yet the skill of the sailor in building and then sailng is just as important. For me the fact that a boat can survive a pounding on the beach is a bonus but not neccessarily the primary focus, which would be the ability to sail well in heavy going while being safe. I think the keel should be able to survive heavy groundings. If you are on the hard anyway you can fix or replace the rudder. If it is transom hung pull it off and put the spare on. Accidents happen, we can not prepare for absolutely everything and big brother and the scantlings and a core of engineers will not change that. Your attempts to get people sailing at a reasonable cost are admirable and you have put your words where your mouth is with an informative book. This is a hell of a lot more than most other folks are doing. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non that I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for many decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, not a shortcomming in the method. With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the centreline as possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times more prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it as solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, but it will be much quieter and more vibration free. I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on rubber to hold the engine in place. I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been thru contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their scantlings. So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs been thru? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both mounts would > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a seaway, if > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a 500 lb > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has been > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, similar to > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal mounted at > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like the other > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject to > fatigue and failure without warning. > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is standard is > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when the > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, they > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings for ABS and > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for fatigue? Has > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be considered > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. This > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any reason to > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven scantlings > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser scantlings than is > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to make them > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed that > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members involved. I > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal fatigue > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > after . > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and always > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many cases > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember your > > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner with > > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember well > > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They were > > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was that > > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > >> > >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, then > > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time ago > > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, but no > > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which are > > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our view > > of origami is biased. > >> > >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think that > > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > >> > >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg lead to > > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it looks > > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > > the skeg and rudder. > >> > >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, and > > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could well > > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. Thus > > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > > with a girder system between. > >> > >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > >> > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> > >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a small > > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: silascrosby > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash > >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard of > > is > >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > > number > >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively unscathed. > >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > > Suva,Fiji > >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > > old > >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home to > > BC. > >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere between > > NZ > >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. Ship,container > > or > >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > > harbour > >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > > engine > >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > > flange. > >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour or > >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > > motoring > >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > > Monica). > >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > > hit > >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - missed > > the > >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can tell > > it > >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > > except > >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we hit > > a > >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale > >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > > keel > >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch was > > on > >> the floor,jam-side down. > >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > > others. > >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes is > >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the skipper > >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > > managed > >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' in > >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > > twin > >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > > Allison > >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > > were > >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > > at > >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > >> along.Excellent sailing. > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > ---------- > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5251|5237|2004-08-31 17:44:39|ben_azo|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|In the Files you will find a folder " Dieselenginesconversions" VW Golf & Mercedes , have a look for the reductions , Did anybody thought of a hydraulic transmission like used on many cats ( 1 engine/2 props ) , that way you place the engine where you want for use as usefull ballast and ease of acces . On a steel boat the keelcooling option is always worth considering . Looking out for an old Sabb with a handvariable ( Hundested-type ) propeller and propeller shaft is also worth looking for in the scandinavian countries , cause Fisherman want heavyer engines today . That engine type can easely totaly be rebuild for a fraction of the newprice ( See M Kasten website for more info.) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > It is Rowland who is looking for an engine. I have a 2.5 litre Nissan, but it is for my eighteen foot fishing boat where the power and revs can be used. It makes 110 foot pounds of torque and about 70 horsepower. I would think that 30 hp would be sufficient for a 36 foot steel boat. The Isuzu is about 50 hp so it might work okay. There are other industrial units available. Rowlands question was about car or truck motors. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: denis buggy > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:40 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > dear Michael I do not know what you can rustle up but the best solution would be an engine which was 20% greater than your needs it may have to pull you NOW against a dangerous current while cold and sluggish and keep the revs as low as possible and the prop as big as possible is the formula for cargo and trawlers as you avoid cavitation as a propeller of a boat or plane has a finite level of efficiency . > a small aircraft must have a gearbox to keep the prop speed below the speed of sound as it does not do the business above this . > diesel engines were popular in the 1930s and the nazi,s used to fly Hamburg to Rio 11.000 miles non stop just for show in their dorniers while the rest of the world wet itself trying the gander Shannon route 3000miles . > this is the efficiency of correctly matched prop to engine. > your best engine is an industrial unit with an injector pump already set to steady revs and preferably with a cast iron head and steel timing gears . > try small tractors and generators and air compressors for something that must stay going at steady revs for a long time the dressing of these engines will also be better ( filters starter alt brackets pulleys ect) a cast iron sleeve and head are essential, if you ask any of the race people how long do the give a aluminium head for competition they will tell you they discard them after each race. > a car engine will rev more because they would need a 7 speed gearbox to cope with a low revs engine . > your diffulty will be with the prop trying to use it and hide it when not in use is a problem and i know very little about this . regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:50 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > In our area of BC I was able to find Volkswagen, Isuzu ( in a Chevy Vega ) and Nissan engines. The Volkswagen motors were around $1000- to $1250- and the Isuzu was $500- and the Nissan $600- I got the 2.5 litre Nissan because it has a gear driven cam and more torque but it is probably too much power for a 36 foot sailboat. The Isuzu has a belt driven cam which if maintained should give good service. The Nissan and Isuzu will do more than 4000 revs which also may be too much for a sailboat. 3000 is more than sufficient. If you are in Europe then there are a lot of others to chose from. Does anyone have the book about marine conversion for vehicle engines and gearboxes ? Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kingsknight4life > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > Thanks Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! 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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5252|5235|2004-08-31 19:00:05|johaan2002|Re: stress analysis|we-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > .... the CONSTANT STRESS imposed on aircraft wings > and keels are much the same (they are naca foils in different > mediums) and the resonance is engineered to be at frequencies much > higher or lower than what the system would ever see in normal > operation (Vne hullspeed?) > > Well I'm no stress engineer, and I appreciate you highlight "constant > stress" but it seems to me that aircraft wings and a boat's > underwater appendages experience stresses of very different kinds; > stresses which are far from constant. > > As aircraft are bi-laterally symmetrical, both wings will experience > near-identical stresses which can only be relieved by changing the > attitude (angle of attack) of the aerofoil itself by means of the > elevators, or by a reduction in airspeed. These are non-automatic > operator adjustments - examples of open-loop control - which if not > applied appropriately can result in catastrophic failure. yeah i agree > In contrast, a monohull will automatically reduce the forces > presented to it's keel, by heeling when subjected to any sideways > force resulting from the movement of water passing under the boat. > However, as we all know heeling also occurs as a result of air > pressure on the sails, so unlike the aircraft wing, stresses applied > to the keel are modulated both by the medium in which the keel itself > sits, together with the effects from a medium in which the keel > itself has no direct contact. This is a good example of closed- loop > control with negative feedback - the greater the forces applied to > the keel (and/or the sails !), the less vertical keel surface is > presented, thus the forces applied to the keel are reduced. > I think it would be difficult to mathematically model the stresses > imposed on the keel(s) or skeg under these circumstances, for as the > hull pitches and yaws, ever-changing forces will be presented to the > keel(s) and skeg, which the boat will attempt to regulate by heeling. > Add to this the three dimensional 'pendulum effect' which all > ballasted keels experience - and I take my hat off to any > mathematician brave enough to attempt to model the keel-to-hull > interface stresses resulting from this dynamic situation with any > degree of accuracy .... > > If ever there was a case for an empirical proof of strength, I'd say > this was it ! > > Colin well, i have to say that i know for a fact that early aircraft and high performance aircraft have "Negative dynamic stability" , meaning a feedback loop of induced control surface pressure and pilot input caused oscillations wich are severely harmful to the structure (failure) of the aircafts epennages (thats a closed loop because its cyclical). rounding up or heeling is a perfect examle of "Positive dynamic stability" wich is exactly how cessnas and all low performance aircraft are designed (to be positively dynamically stable and open loop except in cases of PIO) they will return to straight and level flight if they are trimmed properly, it is possible to measure the stress on a keel, and account for it, but i guess you are correct in the fact that it is beyond our (my) scope. the resonance of the system (not man induced oscillations of negative or positve or a closed and or open loop feed back system as you put it) i was talking about were more along the lines of the sound you hear from say the rudder surfing down the backside of a wave.....? are these oscillations present in keels? furthermore the keel is an underwater sail or wing that counter opposes the force of the sail much more through its foil action and elevator (rudder) than the actual weight in the keel..... and yes the german and thier fokkers had to crash a few times to find thier empirical evidence, i agree.... and yes people have been putting keels on boats for alot longer than that, its just that it sounded to me like we were imparting from traditional hull to keel interfaces and headed towards something not too cool. so what is it maniacal hull/ keel rigididty with pretty colours, wich cant handle any overstress, or is it keeping the original plans or maybee just adding some transverse webs, donning the orange flightsuit in seek of that empirical evidence...| 5253|5237|2004-08-31 20:51:04|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|The question was ask "what size for a 36' steel." I am guessing that the missing word in the sentence was SAILBOAT? The plans from Roberto Barros for my 36' sailboat call for a 40 HP Yanmar. I plan to use the boat for a short time and then sell it and that is the reason I am installing the Yanmar. Since we are talking sailboat there are some important questions that come to mind: How many hours a year will you use the motor? Is the ability to hand crank a must? A 33 HP Yanmar weighs 815 pounds. Do you consider that heavy for a sailboat motor? Are you willing to live with a motor that sounds like it was manufactured in 1910? I just sold a wooden sailboat without the 1.9 VW motor. I plan to install it in my next boat and I would not trade it for 3 Yanmars. The VW has an aluminum head and a timing belt. Sea water never touches the inside of the motor. I have told the motor that it is in a small car traveling across the flats of Nebraska. Fact is the motor doesn't know what it is installed in. VW is currently using a 1.9 and selling it ready to bolt into your boat. Engine parts are available almost everywhere. I have some inside information regarding Caterpillar engines. We didn't manufacture special engines for boats. Were the engines tuned for special applications? Sure they were. I would say you are on the right track. Keep researching car engines. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > Thanks Rowland | 5254|5237|2004-08-31 23:52:07|normanbywaite|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? Simply by having good ventilation around it? I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick starting your vessel? That would look amusing. If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for safety? This is what some recommend. Cheers Gerald, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > The question was ask "what size for a 36' steel." I am guessing that > the missing word in the sentence was SAILBOAT? The plans from Roberto > Barros for my 36' sailboat call for a 40 HP Yanmar. I plan to use the > boat for a short time and then sell it and that is the reason I am > installing the Yanmar. > Since we are talking sailboat there are some important questions that > come to mind: > How many hours a year will you use the motor? Is the ability to hand > crank a must? A 33 HP Yanmar weighs 815 pounds. Do you consider that > heavy for a sailboat motor? Are you willing to live with a motor that > sounds like it was manufactured in 1910? > I just sold a wooden sailboat without the 1.9 VW motor. I plan to > install it in my next boat and I would not trade it for 3 Yanmars. The > VW has an aluminum head and a timing belt. Sea water never touches the > inside of the motor. I have told the motor that it is in a small car > traveling across the flats of Nebraska. Fact is the motor doesn't know > what it is installed in. VW is currently using a 1.9 and selling it > ready to bolt into your boat. Engine parts are available almost > everywhere. > I have some inside information regarding Caterpillar engines. We > didn't manufacture special engines for boats. Were the engines tuned > for special applications? Sure they were. > I would say you are on the right track. Keep researching car engines. > Gerald > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > > Thanks Rowland | 5255|5255|2004-09-01 00:02:19|Brent Geery|Welder Shopping: What size?|I've been looking around for deals on welders, and need to know what size I should be looking at, for the 26 footer. I'd like to stick with the 120V models, as it will make finding a building location easier for me in the middle of Los Angeles, but then I seem to be limited to about 100-120A models. Is 100A sufficient to get the job done, you do I have to look at the 150-200A 220V models? -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5256|5256|2004-09-01 00:02:32|Brent Geery|Steel mast for 26 footer?|I've read several comments that a steel mast is not a good idea on the 26 and 30 footers, making them too tender. However, I would think this is simply a matter of using a lighter gauge steel mast, no? I really don't look forward to the maintenance of a wood mast on my nice steel boat, and I simply don't want aluminum anywhere near my boat. So, what gauge of 4"o.d. pipe would approximate (say within 25%) the weight of a 3"x4.5" solid spruce or fir, and what is the strength vs each? Any other comments would be welcomed. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5257|5257|2004-09-01 00:11:52|Brent Geery|Harbor Freight's $250 Industrial sewing machine?|Anyone seen this machine? Is it up to the task of making sails?: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3914 Industrial quality machine takes on heavy canvas, sailcloth, and lightweight leather applications. Extremely quiet and reliable. Includes two screwdrivers, three bobbins, sewing machine oil. * High speed single needle lock-stitch * Cast iron frame with stainless steel components * Makes seams in fabric up to 5/16'' thick * Link style needle feed for reduced slippage * Forward and reverse feed * Automatic lubrication * Foot pedal operation * Manual- or knee-operated presser foot lifting arm 110/220V; 5500 strokes per minute; Overall dimensions: 47-1/4" L x 18-1/2" W x 30" H; Weight: 61.6 lbs. Table sold separately. ITEM 3914-2VGA $249.99 -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5258|5257|2004-09-01 04:54:42|Russyl|Re: Harbor Freight's $250 Industrial sewing machine?|Brent, do yourself a favor and dont buy that piece of expensive crap. I must say here that I know nothing of that particular machine but I can set you on the path to a real good one. Get in your car and drive to your local thrift store and look in the back of the furniture section. You will see things back there that look like small flip open writing desks. These little gems are old sewing tables from the 40's through the 60's. Inside there are sewing machines made with actual steel gears. That is right Brent, steel and not plastic. My girlfriend spent 300 dollars on a sewing machine from walmart. It had 95 different stitches and a computerized interface but it also had a problem. It was a piece of shit and wouldnt sew 3 layers of duck cloth much less a sail. We got a sewing table from Saint vincent depaul thrift store that cost 20 bucks and sews 4 layers of boot leather without so much as slowing down. We took the piece of crap Brother brand machine with all the bells and whistles back to the store and walked out with much more money in the pocket. The reason the old machines are so cheap is because noone sews anymore, it isnt fashionable. But it sure saves us a lot of money.+ Russ| 5259|5237|2004-09-01 07:19:11|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Matt The 1.9 VW is diesel, four cylinder, water cooled, inline. Not to be confused with the little four cylinder that, years ago, VW installed in Rabbits. However, I recently replaced the two cylinder motor in my car, a Gurgel 800, with a 1974 four cylinder 1,300 VW. The old air cooled VW run like a top but I wouldn't want one in my sailboat. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two > cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? > Simply by having good ventilation around it? > I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on > tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a > problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when > they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped > out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced > properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh > EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often > speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the > early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had > plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal > electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap > arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. > They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick > starting your vessel? That would look amusing. > If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for > safety? This is what some recommend. > Cheers Gerald, > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > The question was ask "what size for a 36' steel." I am guessing that > > the missing word in the sentence was SAILBOAT? The plans from > Roberto > > Barros for my 36' sailboat call for a 40 HP Yanmar. I plan to use > the > > boat for a short time and then sell it and that is the reason I am > > installing the Yanmar. > > Since we are talking sailboat there are some important questions > that > > come to mind: > > How many hours a year will you use the motor? Is the ability to hand > > crank a must? A 33 HP Yanmar weighs 815 pounds. Do you consider that > > heavy for a sailboat motor? Are you willing to live with a motor > that > > sounds like it was manufactured in 1910? > > I just sold a wooden sailboat without the 1.9 VW motor. I plan to > > install it in my next boat and I would not trade it for 3 Yanmars. > The > > VW has an aluminum head and a timing belt. Sea water never touches > the > > inside of the motor. I have told the motor that it is in a small car > > traveling across the flats of Nebraska. Fact is the motor doesn't > know > > what it is installed in. VW is currently using a 1.9 and selling it > > ready to bolt into your boat. Engine parts are available almost > > everywhere. > > I have some inside information regarding Caterpillar engines. We > > didn't manufacture special engines for boats. Were the engines tuned > > for special applications? Sure they were. > > I would say you are on the right track. Keep researching car > engines. > > Gerald > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > > > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas > on > > > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm > toying > > > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my > knowledge > > > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > > > Thanks Rowland | 5260|5237|2004-09-01 09:36:03|Roger Allman|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Gerald, Regarding your experience at CAT. Do you think it is possible to rebuild large CAT diesels from trucks or buses to marine specs? I have never been able to get a straight answer from any CAT dealer or boat yard. The difference in price for a rebuildable truck core versus a marine core is orders of magnitude. --- Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > The question was ask "what size for a 36' steel." I > am guessing that > the missing word in the sentence was SAILBOAT? The > plans from Roberto > Barros for my 36' sailboat call for a 40 HP Yanmar. > I plan to use the > boat for a short time and then sell it and that is > the reason I am > installing the Yanmar. > Since we are talking sailboat there are some > important questions that > come to mind: > How many hours a year will you use the motor? Is the > ability to hand > crank a must? A 33 HP Yanmar weighs 815 pounds. Do > you consider that > heavy for a sailboat motor? Are you willing to live > with a motor that > sounds like it was manufactured in 1910? > I just sold a wooden sailboat without the 1.9 VW > motor. I plan to > install it in my next boat and I would not trade it > for 3 Yanmars. The > VW has an aluminum head and a timing belt. Sea water > never touches the > inside of the motor. I have told the motor that it > is in a small car > traveling across the flats of Nebraska. Fact is the > motor doesn't know > what it is installed in. VW is currently using a 1.9 > and selling it > ready to bolt into your boat. Engine parts are > available almost > everywhere. > I have some inside information regarding Caterpillar > engines. We > didn't manufacture special engines for boats. Were > the engines tuned > for special applications? Sure they were. > I would say you are on the right track. Keep > researching car engines. > Gerald > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open > for a diesel > > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. > steel? Any ideas on > > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too > much). I'm toying > > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck > but my knowledge > > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > > Thanks Rowland > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 5261|5257|2004-09-01 09:47:58|Jeff Williams|Re: Harbor Freight's $250 Industrial sewing machine?|From what I could see of the manual, it's a straight stitch machine. Although it's possible to make sails with straight stitch, there is a much higher chance of seam failure. ie the sail tears along the dotted line. Zig-zag or 3 step zig-zag machines spread the loading over a wider area, and I suspect; give or stretch a little instead of tearing. A Phaff 138 (no longer made) once was a common work-horse in sail lofts and jean factories. With the table, they go for $200 to $800 Cdn. Also, here's an exerpt from an email from a customer of mine who's making some ultralight aircraft sails. Hope this helps. Jeff| 5262|5237|2004-09-01 12:10:04|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Roger Sorry that I cannot help you directly. My experience was in the attachment factory. We manufactured all the hydraulics, transmissions, injector pumps, blades, rippers, scraper bowls, cabs. We did not manufacture anything with an engine that we attached. For several years I was in charge of making sure all engineering changes were in effect, on time, as well as introduction of new product and prove design. It allowed me to work with all the plants world wide and many suppliers. Thru that job I was filled in on how they changed a basic 3208 to serve many purposes. Here is a link to a forum that, kind of like this forum, that deals with Cat marine. Hope they can help you. http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm?CFAPP=5&Forum_ID=93 Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roger Allman wrote: > Gerald, > Regarding your experience at CAT. Do you think it is > possible to rebuild large CAT diesels from trucks or > buses to marine specs? I have never been able to get a > straight answer from any CAT dealer or boat yard. The > difference in price for a rebuildable truck core > versus a marine core is orders of magnitude. > > --- Gerald Niffenegger > wrote: > > > The question was ask "what size for a 36' steel." I > > am guessing that > > the missing word in the sentence was SAILBOAT? The > > plans from Roberto > > Barros for my 36' sailboat call for a 40 HP Yanmar. > > I plan to use the > > boat for a short time and then sell it and that is > > the reason I am > > installing the Yanmar. > > Since we are talking sailboat there are some > > important questions that > > come to mind: > > How many hours a year will you use the motor? Is the > > ability to hand > > crank a must? A 33 HP Yanmar weighs 815 pounds. Do > > you consider that > > heavy for a sailboat motor? Are you willing to live > > with a motor that > > sounds like it was manufactured in 1910? > > I just sold a wooden sailboat without the 1.9 VW > > motor. I plan to > > install it in my next boat and I would not trade it > > for 3 Yanmars. The > > VW has an aluminum head and a timing belt. Sea water > > never touches the > > inside of the motor. I have told the motor that it > > is in a small car > > traveling across the flats of Nebraska. Fact is the > > motor doesn't know > > what it is installed in. VW is currently using a 1.9 > > and selling it > > ready to bolt into your boat. Engine parts are > > available almost > > everywhere. > > I have some inside information regarding Caterpillar > > engines. We > > didn't manufacture special engines for boats. Were > > the engines tuned > > for special applications? Sure they were. > > I would say you are on the right track. Keep > > researching car engines. > > Gerald > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open > > for a diesel > > > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. > > steel? Any ideas on > > > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too > > much). I'm toying > > > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck > > but my knowledge > > > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > > > Thanks Rowland > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail | 5263|5263|2004-09-01 13:32:59|SHANE ROTHWELL|Welder Size|Brent, I took a welding course last February and did quite abit of research on the machine needed. Brent Swain recommends using an AC buzzbox, but he's been welding for years & stick welding is a bit of an art form. In the end I bought a Miller 175. you need 220v & 30amp breaker but any dryer outlet will give you that so no big deal. it will handle 1/4" material, thus I figure it will be running at 75% power (as opposed to a smaller machine that would be running at 100% all the time). Though it only has a 30% duty cycle there is no way you will be welding 100% of the time. bought the miller as it has metal drive wheel assembly & the Lincoln & other, espcially Italian units also have a cheap plastic drive roll assembly. I figure you also want to be sure to get gas taps then welding SS is no problem & you can use flux cored (self shielding= no gas) for the hull etc & still do SS & the pretty stuff you want 110 not got the balls you need to do the job (unless perhaps the plating on a 26' is 1/8"? Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:02:14 -0700 From: Brent Geery Subject: Welder Shopping: What size? I've been looking around for deals on welders, and need to know what size I should be looking at, for the 26 footer. I'd like to stick with the 120V models, as it will make finding a building location easier for me in the middle of Los Angeles, but then I seem to be limited to about 100-120A models. Is 100A sufficient to get the job done, you do I have to look at the 150-200A 220V models? -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5264|5237|2004-09-01 14:39:44|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Matt, some interesting points. The old British twins would still shake even if balanced as you said. Some early engines are just poor designs compared to the newer stuff. Henry Royce said you only have to balance the vibration out of the operating range which is much easier if the engine only does 3000 rpm. You can not hand crank a small Yanmar. The foot crank with the better purchase power of a leg is much better. A diesel with a foot crank would be nice and I believe that some earlier models have them. A spare starter motor and good batteries are the safe guard for modern diesels. My experience with my 25 year old Yanmar has been pleasant. It is built very solid. 663cc making 15 hp compared to the Norton of 750cc and 85 hp at which point the crank brakes every year or so. And that is why the Japanese motors are so much better. Although there are plenty of petrol powered motors in boats I would only use it for an outboard motor and leave the fuel can in a ventilated area. Any spills from the motor do not go in the boat. Where and when did you race and on what, if it gets too far from boats send me a note direct. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: normanbywaite To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? Simply by having good ventilation around it? I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick starting your vessel? That would look amusing. If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for safety? This is what some recommend. Cheers Gerald, Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5265|5265|2004-09-01 16:58:15|johaan2002|oops..|i just want to appologise for not reading the old posts before posting that bit on stress analysis, as far as i am concerned somebody else has already "done the math" on this one.. i am jsut curious and yeah, all that fearmongering is exactly that and it kind of made me wonder. maybee i can ask some more interesting questions when im actually affixing a keel to my boat :) ok that is all, and i will try to keep up on my posts... k back to welding...ciao jon| 5266|5255|2004-09-01 18:37:42|Mike|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|Brent: You didn't mention the process that you wish to use (i.e. SMAW"stick" or GMAW"wire". When that is established, I am sure that you will receive a multitude of suggestions. Most of the "off the shelf" 110V welders have a duty cycle rating of 10-20%, which is substandard for the amount of welding that you will be doing. Depending on how much you wish to spend, a motorgenerator unit may - or may not - be a consideration. If budget is a "strong" factor, I would suggest a used 230V DC welder. You will probably see a lot of old Miller/Lincoln/Hobart welders around that punch out 200- 300Amps@60% duty cycle, more than you'll need. To give you some idea, I run 1/8"6010@100-110Amps, 1/8"7018@125-150Amps. Good Luck! Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > I've been looking around for deals on welders, and need to know what > size I should be looking at, for the 26 footer. I'd like to stick > with the 120V models, as it will make finding a building location > easier for me in the middle of Los Angeles, but then I seem to be > limited to about 100-120A models. Is 100A sufficient to get the job > done, you do I have to look at the 150-200A 220V models? > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5267|5237|2004-09-01 18:58:22|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|For eleven years I built and drove race cars. I never started a season without a balanced engine. However, I ended a few. All the engines were solid mounted. I do not recall losing even one bolt due to vibration or for any other reason. However, almost every bolt was wired or had a drop of loctite. I also checked the car over after each and every show. On the other hand. I have a Tobata one cylinder, 14 HP tractor with a heavy flywheel that vibrates so bad that your hands go to sleep driving it. I blame it on being only one cylinder? It reminds me of an old old B John Deere. There is just nothing that smoothes an engine out like having lots of cylinders. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Matt, some interesting points. The old British twins would still shake even if balanced as you said. Some early engines are just poor designs compared to the newer stuff. Henry Royce said you only have to balance the vibration out of the operating range which is much easier if the engine only does 3000 rpm. You can not hand crank a small Yanmar. The foot crank with the better purchase power of a leg is much better. A diesel with a foot crank would be nice and I believe that some earlier models have them. A spare starter motor and good batteries are the safe guard for modern diesels. My experience with my 25 year old Yanmar has been pleasant. It is built very solid. 663cc making 15 hp compared to the Norton of 750cc and 85 hp at which point the crank brakes every year or so. And that is why the Japanese motors are so much better. Although there are plenty of petrol powered motors in boats I would only use it for an outboard motor and leave the fuel can in a ventilated area. Any spills from the motor do not go in the boat. Where and when did you race and on what, if it gets too far from boats send me a note direct. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: normanbywaite > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:52 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two > cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? > Simply by having good ventilation around it? > I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on > tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a > problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when > they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped > out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced > properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh > EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often > speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the > early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had > plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal > electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap > arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. > They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick > starting your vessel? That would look amusing. > If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for > safety? This is what some recommend. > Cheers Gerald, > Matt > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5268|5263|2004-09-01 21:05:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welder Size|Shane, At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people off, I'll repeat this once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed machine then it is too small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be welding with 0.045" welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The smaller wire can not carry enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The miller 175 has another problem even if it can put out enough current to use the 0,045" wire. It can't put out enough current at the start, when the current goes WAY up, so it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding involves lots of skip welding this is very bad. I know about this because I used to get thousands of parts hot dipped galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding welds with poor penetration. After you throw away several thousand parts because they fall apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of the larger wire. Note that I am not saying the welder can't make perfectly good welds in the hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. What I am saying is that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a high percentage of bad parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts in each batch to virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. One vendor thanked me. Not because he produced better welds, but because once his guys stopped bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with they realized the deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went lots quicker. That saved them and me money. Another important point is that since are welding faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is less, and so is the distortion you get. In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than stick welders. A small MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a small stick welder would not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my advice, get a bigger machine and use a bigger wire. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Welder Size > > Brent, > I took a welding course last February and did quite > abit of research on the machine needed. Brent Swain > recommends using an AC buzzbox, but he's been welding > for years & stick welding is a bit of an art form. > > In the end I bought a Miller 175. you need 220v & > 30amp breaker but any dryer outlet will give you that > so no big deal. it will handle 1/4" material, thus I > figure it will be running at 75% power (as opposed to > a smaller machine that would be running at 100% all > the time). > > Though it only has a 30% duty cycle there is no way > you will be welding 100% of the time. bought the > miller as it has metal drive wheel assembly & the > Lincoln & other, espcially Italian units also have a > cheap plastic drive roll assembly. I figure you also > want to be sure to get gas taps then welding SS is no > problem & you can use flux cored (self shielding= no > gas) for the hull etc & still do SS & the pretty stuff > you want > > 110 not got the balls you need to do the job (unless > perhaps the plating on a 26' is 1/8"? > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:02:14 -0700 > From: Brent Geery > Subject: Welder Shopping: What size? > > I've been looking around for deals on welders, and > need to know what > size I should be looking at, for the 26 footer. I'd > like to stick > with the 120V models, as it will make finding a > building location > easier for me in the middle of Los Angeles, but then I > seem to be > limited to about 100-120A models. Is 100A sufficient > to get the job > done, you do I have to look at the 150-200A 220V > models? > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5269|5263|2004-09-02 02:59:37|Alex|AC stick|I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex| 5270|5263|2004-09-02 03:17:32|Brent Geery|Re: Welder Size|On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:32:44 -0400 (EDT), SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > 110 not got the balls you need to do the job (unless > perhaps the plating on a 26' is 1/8"? The 26 footer does use mostly 1/8" or 10 ga., and a little bit of 3/16" and 1/4". -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5271|5255|2004-09-02 03:17:32|Brent Geery|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:37:28 -0000, "Mike" wrote: > Brent: > You didn't mention the process that you wish to use (i.e. > SMAW"stick" or GMAW"wire". When that is established, I am sure that > you will receive a multitude of suggestions. Most of the "off the > shelf" 110V welders have a duty cycle rating of 10-20%, which is > substandard for the amount of welding that you will be doing. > Depending on how much you wish to spend, a motorgenerator unit may - > or may not - be a consideration. If budget is a "strong" factor, I > would suggest a used 230V DC welder. You will probably see a lot of > old Miller/Lincoln/Hobart welders around that punch out 200- > 300Amps@60% duty cycle, more than you'll need. To give you some > idea, I run 1/8"6010@100-110Amps, 1/8"7018@125-150Amps. > Good Luck! > Mike Graham Doh! You're right. I forgot to include that rather important bit of information: Arc (stick.) There are some really nice used units I can buy for cheap, with 60%+ duty cycle, but they weigh a ton, and most of the good units are 220 Volt, and this may complicate my search for a (reasonably priced) building site to rent. I've have been looking into the motor driven welders, like the Zena brand-- 100% duty cycle, 150A DC. On e-bay one would run me about US$435 delivered, then just add the engine and base. Probably about US$750 total for a working system. The advantage with this setup, is it also gives me a way to make repairs on the boat in the middle of nowhere, and I could also charge the boat's battery bank with the welder. With a little more effort, I can add the water maker, backup bilge pump, and maybe even a scuba tank air compressor. I know the operating costs on an engine driven welder is lots higher than using mains supplied power, but maybe the high duty cycle, and fact it can be "recycled" as a battery charger later, might make it a good choice in my situation. Hmm, so many choices. :-/ -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5272|5257|2004-09-02 03:17:33|Brent Geery|Re: Harbor Freight's $250 Industrial sewing machine?|On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:53:47 -0000, "Russyl" wrote: > Get in your car and drive to your local thrift store and look in the > back of the furniture section. You will see things back there that > look like small flip open writing desks. These little gems are old > sewing tables from the 40's through the 60's. Inside there are sewing > machines made with actual steel gears. That is right Brent, steel and > not plastic. I always forget about thrift stores. Of course, last time I went into one, things had changed. Before, you could buy a shirt there for 25 cents, now they want $5! It also seems all the small thrift stores are gone, leaving only the Salvation Army, ect. I'll have to chem 'em out, and see what I find. Thanks for the reminder.. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5273|5256|2004-09-02 03:17:35|Brent Geery|Re: Steel mast for 26 footer?|On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:02:15 -0700, Brent Geery wrote: > I've read several comments that a steel mast is not a good idea on the > 26 and 30 footers, making them too tender. However, I would think > this is simply a matter of using a lighter gauge steel mast, no? > > I really don't look forward to the maintenance of a wood mast on my > nice steel boat, and I simply don't want aluminum anywhere near my > boat. > > So, what gauge of 4"o.d. pipe would approximate (say within 25%) the > weight of a 3"x4.5" solid spruce or fir, and what is the strength vs > each? Any other comments would be welcomed. No input yet, guys? Well, assuming the solid wood stick would weigh 6.19 lbs per linear foot (total of about 205 lbs), anyone have a better estimate on the wood weight? A mast of rectangular steel tube 4"x3"x1/8" would weigh about 185 lbs, and 4"x3"x3/16" would weigh 269 lbs. Looking at the round stuff, 3"od x 1/4" wall would weigh 242 lbs, 3.5"od x 1/4" wall comes in at 287 lbs. Still don't have a clue about the strength issue. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5274|5274|2004-09-02 03:35:46|Alex|moving boats|My boat has company! I just put up a new cover photo of a friend's 36 footer being hoisted down off a trailer to roost near my boat. The whole moving process was quite interesting, with some special considerations for twin keel boats. I'll post some information about the move in the next few days. There were many things learned in the process, some things I'd repeat and some things I'd not! Alex| 5275|5255|2004-09-02 09:33:54|sae140|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|> I know the operating costs on an engine driven welder is lots higher > than using mains supplied power, but maybe the high duty cycle, and > fact it can be "recycled" as a battery charger later, might make it > a good choice in my situation. My preference is for a 240A AC hernia unit, but .... if you're really stuck for a welder - pop down to the local car-breakers and source the BIGGEST alternator you can find from a big Yankee air-conned vehicle (taxi ?) - 140A would be ideal. Mate it up to a good engine, preferably with direct drive, or double/triple belts if not, and over-ride the regulator. Hookup some suitable cables, then try it out as a DC welder. If the diode pack fries, then fit an uprated (and external) diode pack. They make good DC welders. Regulate the current either by the engine revs, or make an adjustable regulator. You *can* re-wind the stator to make an AC equivalent (no probs with a diode pack), but as I discovered it's a hell of a hassle - modifying the stator was easy enough, but the re-winding process was a pain in the bum. All-in-all, not worth the hassle (imho). In contrast, the DC conversion is a breeze, and 140A will easily burn 3.2mm electrodes, and may even handle 4mm on a good day. I wouldn't want to make any claims about duty cycle - depends on how well you can cool the alternator, but theory suggests around 50%. Replace the original regulator, and you've got a 140A alternator for the boat - or fit a switch to retain an on-board welder option. Colin| 5276|5255|2004-09-02 13:04:03|ORAN & BARBARA MARKSBURY|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|Years ago we used to add a DPDT switch to our automobile regulator/alternators to apply the battery voltage to the field winding of the alternator and to move the alternator output to a AC socket instead of the battery.The results was 110VDC which we could adjust with the engine speed. We could run universal (with brushes) motors such as hand drills, skil saws, most construction tools, etc. I have seen people welding with it but that was 40-50 years ago and I wasn't interested then.The only problem was that the voltage tended to get too high with no load on the alternator. With the wildly fluctuating load of welding I suspect the voltages could be lethal. BE CAREFUL. I would recommend an external regulator of some sort (a large rheostat might work), an alternator is output voltage regulated and the current usually is not controlled.The internal diodes usually are not harmed by excessive current, but by high reverse voltage during the AC to DC conversion. Oran Marksbury, WH7U >From: "sae140" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welder Shopping: What size? >Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 13:32:37 -0000 | 5277|5263|2004-09-02 13:51:53|Carl Di Stefano|Re: AC stick|The nice thing about AC is the lack of arc blow. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5278|5278|2004-09-02 16:26:43|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mig Welders & strength of welds|Gary & Alex, No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 way through building my boat! at the same time.....oh Shit! Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as it's a really sweet little unit The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller states very cleary in their specs that the unit will do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of the time. For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the hull on all welds. Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material after he finnished his hull so I have the full range of material sizes and will do lost of testing & busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds you mentioned. At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) another glass boat. Thanks Lads, Shane Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 From: "Gary H. Lucas" Subject: Re: Welder Size Shane, At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people off, I'll repeat this once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed machine then it is too small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be welding with 0.045" welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The smaller wire can not carry enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The miller 175 has another problem even if it can put out enough current to use the 0,045" wire. It can't put out enough current at the start, when the current goes WAY up, so it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding involves lots of skip welding this is very bad. I know about this because I used to get thousands of parts hot dipped galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding welds with poor penetration. After you throw away several thousand parts because they fall apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of the larger wire. Note that I am not saying the welder can't make perfectly good welds in the hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. What I am saying is that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a high percentage of bad parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts in each batch to virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. One vendor thanked me. Not because he produced better welds, but because once his guys stopped bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with they realized the deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went lots quicker. That saved them and me money. Another important point is that since are welding faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is less, and so is the distortion you get. In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than stick welders. A small MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a small stick welder would not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my advice, get a bigger machine and use a bigger wire. Gary H. Lucas Message: 11 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 From: "Alex" Subject: AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5279|5278|2004-09-02 16:27:36|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mig Welders & strength of welds|Gary & Alex, No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 way through building my boat! at the same time.....oh Shit! Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as it's a really sweet little unit The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller states very cleary in their specs that the unit will do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of the time. For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the hull on all welds. Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material after he finnished his hull so I have the full range of material sizes and will do lost of testing & busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds you mentioned. At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) another glass boat. Thanks Lads, Shane Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 From: "Gary H. Lucas" Subject: Re: Welder Size Shane, At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people off, I'll repeat this once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed machine then it is too small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be welding with 0.045" welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The smaller wire can not carry enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The miller 175 has another problem even if it can put out enough current to use the 0,045" wire. It can't put out enough current at the start, when the current goes WAY up, so it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding involves lots of skip welding this is very bad. I know about this because I used to get thousands of parts hot dipped galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding welds with poor penetration. After you throw away several thousand parts because they fall apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of the larger wire. Note that I am not saying the welder can't make perfectly good welds in the hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. What I am saying is that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a high percentage of bad parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts in each batch to virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. One vendor thanked me. Not because he produced better welds, but because once his guys stopped bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with they realized the deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went lots quicker. That saved them and me money. Another important point is that since are welding faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is less, and so is the distortion you get. In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than stick welders. A small MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a small stick welder would not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my advice, get a bigger machine and use a bigger wire. Gary H. Lucas Message: 11 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 From: "Alex" Subject: AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5280|5280|2004-09-02 16:46:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Mig welders & Strengh of welds|Gentlemen, Sorry, forgot to mention that for the majority of the welding I will be using flux cored wire (not gas & straight wire) as a> it's hotter and you get better penetration b> not as wind sensative (messier that's true but me & my grinder love that stuff) Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5281|5278|2004-09-02 17:05:30|Paul Faulkner|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|I think your machine will do just fine. I have a very similar unit that is made by Lincoln. It is MIG capable. My boat (29' non-origami power boat) is outside and I have used gasless flux-core wire for all of my welding, so I cannot comment on how well it welds MIG. The keel is 5/16", the frames are 1/4", and the hull is 10gauge welded to 1/2" chine bars. Everything is welded both inside and out. For each new type or thickness of weld, I would practice a bit and then do a destructive test with a hammer and a vice. The 5/16" was difficult to weld at first and on the upper end of what my machine would do, but the 1/4" and 10ga were no problem. Proper gap and v-groove becomes much more important as the thickness increases. The Metal Boat Society web page has a lot of good info on welders and welding technique. One of the moderators built his boat with a welder similar to yours. ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: rockrothwell@... Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds Gary & Alex, No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 way through building my boat! at the same time.....oh Shit! Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as it's a really sweet little unit The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller states very cleary in their specs that the unit will do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of the time. For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the hull on all welds. Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material after he finnished his hull so I have the full range of material sizes and will do lost of testing & busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds you mentioned. At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) another glass boat. Thanks Lads, Shane Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 From: "Gary H. Lucas" Subject: Re: Welder Size Shane, At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people off, I'll repeat this once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed machine then it is too small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be welding with 0.045" welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The smaller wire can not carry enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The miller 175 has another problem even if it can put out enough current to use the 0,045" wire. It can't put out enough current at the start, when the current goes WAY up, so it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding involves lots of skip welding this is very bad. I know about this because I used to get thousands of parts hot dipped galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding welds with poor penetration. After you throw away several thousand parts because they fall apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of the larger wire. Note that I am not saying the welder can't make perfectly good welds in the hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. What I am saying is that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a high percentage of bad parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts in each batch to virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. One vendor thanked me. Not because he produced better welds, but because once his guys stopped bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with they realized the deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went lots quicker. That saved them and me money. Another important point is that since are welding faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is less, and so is the distortion you get. In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than stick welders. A small MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a small stick welder would not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my advice, get a bigger machine and use a bigger wire. Gary H. Lucas Message: 11 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 From: "Alex" Subject: AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5282|5282|2004-09-02 17:09:00|edward_stoneuk|Origamiboats2 photos|I have uploaded some pictures of boat building bits on to origamiboats2 as the photo section here is about full. Regards, Ted| 5283|5255|2004-09-02 17:50:21|sae140|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ORAN & BARBARA MARKSBURY" wrote: > Years ago we used to add a DPDT switch to our automobile > regulator/alternators to apply the battery voltage to the field winding of > the alternator and to move the alternator output to a AC socket instead of > the battery.The results was 110VDC which we could adjust with the engine > speed. We could run universal (with brushes) motors such as hand drills, > skil saws, most construction tools, etc. I have seen people welding with it > but that was 40-50 years ago and I wasn't interested then.The only problem > was that the voltage tended to get too high with no load on the alternator. > With the wildly fluctuating load of welding I suspect the voltages could be > lethal. BE CAREFUL. > I would recommend an external regulator of some sort (a large rheostat > might work), an alternator is output voltage regulated and the current > usually is not controlled.The internal diodes usually are not harmed by > excessive current, but by high reverse voltage during the AC to DC > conversion. > Oran Marksbury, WH7U My error - when I said "over-ride the regulator", I didn't mean to imply strapping it to 12v to push the output voltage to it's limits, but rather raise the output voltage up from 14V to around 50V either by lifting the internal regulator's reference, or making-up a homebrew equivalent which will do the same thing but with better heat dumping. I personally wouldn't recommend working without some kind of voltage regulation for precisely the reason you mention. I agree that the current isn't controlled directly, but I find adjusting the output voltage gives adequate current control - at least mine does. 50V is plenty to strike an arc - even 25V is enough with practice. If the regulator is doing it's job, then the voltage shouldn't swing too much (?) But I've never bothered to check - as it seems to work ok. Although I haven't had problems with them myself, there *have* been reports of diode packs frying when exceeding their normal working voltage, which can be as low as 20-30 volts. Apparently their spec varies with each alternator manufacturer. The big problem if using a modified alternator for continuous welding is the heat generated, as you are quadrupling (or more) the maximum wattage that the windings and the diode heatsinks have been designed to handle. Nice to know that folks have been modding alternators for some time ! But in my view - nothing, but nothing beats an indestructable hernia- sized buzz-box - and you can always sell it when you've finished. Colin| 5284|5237|2004-09-02 18:08:17|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|The British twins were as bad as a single because both pistons went up and down together. And that is a lot of mass with nothing to balance it. Newer motors will have a counter balancer that makes life a lot better. The British new how to make good frames but the Japanese sure improved the engines. My Yanmar 15 is a bit of a pounder but it sure is reliable and is built to last a long time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? For eleven years I built and drove race cars. I never started a season without a balanced engine. However, I ended a few. All the engines were solid mounted. I do not recall losing even one bolt due to vibration or for any other reason. However, almost every bolt was wired or had a drop of loctite. I also checked the car over after each and every show. On the other hand. I have a Tobata one cylinder, 14 HP tractor with a heavy flywheel that vibrates so bad that your hands go to sleep driving it. I blame it on being only one cylinder? It reminds me of an old old B John Deere. There is just nothing that smoothes an engine out like having lots of cylinders. Gerald [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5285|5237|2004-09-03 02:12:42|normanbywaite|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Hope this isn't too off topic... Yes, the more pistons the merrier. Because the movement of a piston is linear, there's only so much counter-balancing you can do with putting bob-weights on the (circular-motion) crankshaft. V-motors can be very smooth, if you've ever had the pleasure of riding a modern Ducati, you'll notice that a 90 degree V-twin can be as smooth as silk. Yamaha even had a go at emulating this with their TRX 850, which was a parallel twin, but had a 270 degree crank, which gave it the same movement and firing order as a 90 degree V-twin - they sold them by the crateload because they were so smooth and powerful. Off course, this doesn't seem to help the 60 degree twin motor of a Harley, which feels decidedly agricultural. I've spent a good deal of time in and around petrol engines, but i know very little about deisel engines, and whenever i've asked why they are preferred for marine use i'm given the safety answer. In Annia Hill's book she scoff at this argument, claiming that if the fuel is stored on deck (in well-ventilated deck boxes) there's no problem. Every so often on one or other of my motorcycles i'd encounter a leaking carburettor, and i guess this could be fatal on a boat. Maybe i've answered my own question, but is this the only reason? To answer Michael's question, my race bike was actually a single cylinder bike. There was this unusual racing class in the early nineties, which was a kind of rebellion against the ever increasing size of the class rule books. The "Supermono" class had only one rule: The motor had to be a single cylinder four stroke, any size. My bike was a 1992 model Yamaha 250cc Grand Prix bike, with a 610cc dirt bike motor shoe-horned in there. The vibration was pretty severe, every single goddam nut and bolt had to be lock-wired. I once lost a foot peg while going around a corner at about 120kmh from the little Allen bolt working loose. I nearly soiled my leathers. The bike was great, all the latest hi-tech gear from the Yamaha race factory (the economics of the thing was that all the top-gun riders had to have the current model each year, so second hand, state of the art bikes were quite cheap one or two years old), all polished alluminium, two enormous carburettors and an exhaust pipe so large that it once took me half an hour to retrieve a tennis ball my daughter had dropped into it. I raced for about three years and had a blast. I went though a good slab of cash too, but for that amount of enjoyment it was very cheap. Nowadays i'm bikeless, saving my bikkies for my sailing obsession, now that i've got the motorcycle obsession out of my system. Sorry to go on about motorcycles on this group, it's just that it's nice to get a chance to post something on a topic i actually know something about, instead of simply lurking about on the group reading the learned words (and arguments) of the experts. Cheers, Matt, Melbourne, Australia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > For eleven years I built and drove race cars. I never started a season > without a balanced engine. However, I ended a few. All the engines > were solid mounted. I do not recall losing even one bolt due to > vibration or for any other reason. However, almost every bolt was > wired or had a drop of loctite. I also checked the car over after each > and every show. On the other hand. I have a Tobata one cylinder, 14 HP > tractor with a heavy flywheel that vibrates so bad that your hands go > to sleep driving it. I blame it on being only one cylinder? It reminds > me of an old old B John Deere. There is just nothing that smoothes an > engine out like having lots of cylinders. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Matt, some interesting points. The old British twins would still > shake even if balanced as you said. Some early engines are just poor > designs compared to the newer stuff. Henry Royce said you only have to > balance the vibration out of the operating range which is much easier > if the engine only does 3000 rpm. You can not hand crank a small > Yanmar. The foot crank with the better purchase power of a leg is much > better. A diesel with a foot crank would be nice and I believe that > some earlier models have them. A spare starter motor and good > batteries are the safe guard for modern diesels. My experience with my > 25 year old Yanmar has been pleasant. It is built very solid. 663cc > making 15 hp compared to the Norton of 750cc and 85 hp at which point > the crank brakes every year or so. And that is why the Japanese motors > are so much better. Although there are plenty of petrol powered motors > in boats I would only use it for an outboard motor and leave the fuel > can in a ventilated area. Any spills from the motor do not go in the > boat. Where and when did you race and on what, if it gets too far from > boats send me a note direct. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: normanbywaite > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:52 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > > > > Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two > > cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? > > Simply by having good ventilation around it? > > I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on > > tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a > > problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when > > they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped > > out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced > > properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh > > EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often > > speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the > > early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had > > plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal > > electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap > > arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. > > They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick > > starting your vessel? That would look amusing. > > If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for > > safety? This is what some recommend. > > Cheers Gerald, > > Matt > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5286|5237|2004-09-03 07:27:45|denis buggy|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|dear matt throughout the world the movement to diesel is proceeding rapidly as no other engine can produce the efficiencies needed as they can use a number of fuels and are a compression engine and used to be able to survive without electricity , however the emissions controls mean that the fuel supply and timing now need to be controlled by computer as some countries will start a large diesel engine in a truck or bus on half its cylinders until it warms up and runs clean (toyoko) and you can now alter a drivers driving by changing the speed limiter and economy and power settings on the fuel computer while the truck is on the move via satellite ( Ireland ) the efficiency of a diesel is very poor ( expressed in calorific value 45%= power obtained from a given amount of fuel )however a petrol engine is worse and a turbine/turbojet/turbofan is much worse . most flight magazines predict that most light aircraft will convert to diesel within the next decade . over the north sea in 1942 a flight of hurricanes spent 22 minutes trying to shoot down a blom and voss diesel powered seaplane (unarmed) and had to give up out of ammunition and fuel . it made it home to Hamburg its self sealing tanks thoughrily tested with cannon and tracer . in commercial boats diesel rules . there is a man in Australia who cuts the cranks of his English motorbikes and bolts them together again with allen keys with the webs opposite each other . and I rember reading he was happy with the results . a engine which has been properly damped will not trouble you . Mercedes even put two small shocks on the idler pulley of the fanbelt (300D) and many fit shocks to the engine to control vibration as cables fuel lines oil a/c will all chafe and loosen . the condition and quality of the damper pulley fitted to the front of the engine will tell , and if some dummy has pulled it off from the outside expect it to show in vibration , re previous advice for a boat a good small industrial engine is a very different animal to the temporary excuse of an engine usually fitted to cars. regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: normanbywaite To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 7:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? Hope this isn't too off topic... Yes, the more pistons the merrier. Because the movement of a piston is linear, there's only so much counter-balancing you can do with putting bob-weights on the (circular-motion) crankshaft. V-motors can be very smooth, if you've ever had the pleasure of riding a modern Ducati, you'll notice that a 90 degree V-twin can be as smooth as silk. Yamaha even had a go at emulating this with their TRX 850, which was a parallel twin, but had a 270 degree crank, which gave it the same movement and firing order as a 90 degree V-twin - they sold them by the crateload because they were so smooth and powerful. Off course, this doesn't seem to help the 60 degree twin motor of a Harley, which feels decidedly agricultural. I've spent a good deal of time in and around petrol engines, but i know very little about deisel engines, and whenever i've asked why they are preferred for marine use i'm given the safety answer. In Annia Hill's book she scoff at this argument, claiming that if the fuel is stored on deck (in well-ventilated deck boxes) there's no problem. Every so often on one or other of my motorcycles i'd encounter a leaking carburettor, and i guess this could be fatal on a boat. Maybe i've answered my own question, but is this the only reason? To answer Michael's question, my race bike was actually a single cylinder bike. There was this unusual racing class in the early nineties, which was a kind of rebellion against the ever increasing size of the class rule books. The "Supermono" class had only one rule: The motor had to be a single cylinder four stroke, any size. My bike was a 1992 model Yamaha 250cc Grand Prix bike, with a 610cc dirt bike motor shoe-horned in there. The vibration was pretty severe, every single goddam nut and bolt had to be lock-wired. I once lost a foot peg while going around a corner at about 120kmh from the little Allen bolt working loose. I nearly soiled my leathers. The bike was great, all the latest hi-tech gear from the Yamaha race factory (the economics of the thing was that all the top-gun riders had to have the current model each year, so second hand, state of the art bikes were quite cheap one or two years old), all polished alluminium, two enormous carburettors and an exhaust pipe so large that it once took me half an hour to retrieve a tennis ball my daughter had dropped into it. I raced for about three years and had a blast. I went though a good slab of cash too, but for that amount of enjoyment it was very cheap. Nowadays i'm bikeless, saving my bikkies for my sailing obsession, now that i've got the motorcycle obsession out of my system. Sorry to go on about motorcycles on this group, it's just that it's nice to get a chance to post something on a topic i actually know something about, instead of simply lurking about on the group reading the learned words (and arguments) of the experts. Cheers, Matt, Melbourne, Australia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > For eleven years I built and drove race cars. I never started a season > without a balanced engine. However, I ended a few. All the engines > were solid mounted. I do not recall losing even one bolt due to > vibration or for any other reason. However, almost every bolt was > wired or had a drop of loctite. I also checked the car over after each > and every show. On the other hand. I have a Tobata one cylinder, 14 HP > tractor with a heavy flywheel that vibrates so bad that your hands go > to sleep driving it. I blame it on being only one cylinder? It reminds > me of an old old B John Deere. There is just nothing that smoothes an > engine out like having lots of cylinders. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Matt, some interesting points. The old British twins would still > shake even if balanced as you said. Some early engines are just poor > designs compared to the newer stuff. Henry Royce said you only have to > balance the vibration out of the operating range which is much easier > if the engine only does 3000 rpm. You can not hand crank a small > Yanmar. The foot crank with the better purchase power of a leg is much > better. A diesel with a foot crank would be nice and I believe that > some earlier models have them. A spare starter motor and good > batteries are the safe guard for modern diesels. My experience with my > 25 year old Yanmar has been pleasant. It is built very solid. 663cc > making 15 hp compared to the Norton of 750cc and 85 hp at which point > the crank brakes every year or so. And that is why the Japanese motors > are so much better. Although there are plenty of petrol powered motors > in boats I would only use it for an outboard motor and leave the fuel > can in a ventilated area. Any spills from the motor do not go in the > boat. Where and when did you race and on what, if it gets too far from > boats send me a note direct. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: normanbywaite > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:52 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > > > > Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two > > cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? > > Simply by having good ventilation around it? > > I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on > > tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a > > problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when > > they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped > > out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced > > properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh > > EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often > > speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the > > early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had > > plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal > > electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap > > arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. > > They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick > > starting your vessel? That would look amusing. > > If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for > > safety? This is what some recommend. > > Cheers Gerald, > > Matt > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5287|5287|2004-09-03 08:15:16|audeojude|on topic replying to messages|I feel like I'm becoming a nag but here goes one more time. Could we all please delete any text out of reply's that is not pertinate to your reply. The incidence of replys that have the entire text of the last days posts in it are rising rapidly. It makes it hard to weed out the new from the old. Thank you Scott Carle aka audeojude sv Comes Around, Goes Around| 5288|5237|2004-09-03 09:45:06|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|normanbywaite wrote, I've spent a good deal of time in and around petrol engines, but i know very little about deisel engines, and whenever i've asked why they are preferred for marine use i'm given the safety answer. In Annia Hill's book she scoff at this argument, claiming that if the fuel is stored on deck (in well-ventilated deck boxes) there's no problem. Every so often on one or other of my motorcycles i'd encounter a leaking carburettor, and i guess this could be fatal on a boat. Maybe i've answered my own question, but is this the only reason? Gasoline does explode, and safety is a sufficient reason to avoid it in boats, but the real reason it is no longer popular is because the electrical ignition system does not tolerate the saltwater environment, causing great inconvenience. Propane (for cooking and heat) is at least as dangerous (though you may believe that the "sniffer" will absolutely protect you), but is so much more convenient in the lighting than other fuels that it has become probably the most popular for new installations. I remain skeptical. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5289|5237|2004-09-03 10:06:08|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|denis buggy wrote, re previous advice for a boat a good small industrial engine is a very different animal to the temporary excuse of an engine usually fitted to cars. I'm attracted to the idea of using an industrial engine because of the range of selection, the dependability and the price, but I have two questions: 1) How can you tell whether an industrial engine will mate to a marine transmission? Will the necessity of buying a separate, possibly new, marine transmission negate any savings over buying a marine engine/transmission combination? 2) What modifications must be made? Any unit will need either a marine exhaust manifold or a dry exhaust (which some recent posts suggested is not legal in the USA, I'm still not clear on this). A somewhat earlier post from a diesel mechanic suggested that a stationary engine such as from a generating plant would require modification to the injector pump as the engine is set up to run only at a specific rpm. Remote controls and instrumentation would be custom. Mounts would possibly be custom. What else? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5290|5237|2004-09-03 12:22:33|spencerj71|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|To me the primary reasons to choose diesel over gas (petrol) are that a diesel engine produces much greater torque and is more fuel efficient. Powering a boat is like driving up hill all the time. As gas engines produce low torque, they have to turn very quickly in order to move any weight up hill (or through the water). This causes them to wear out much quicker than a diesel engine. The advantage of a gas engine is that it is very light for its power output, which is why they are popular in cars and motorcyles and high speed power boats. This is not an advantage for sailboats or displacement power boats, as weight down low in the boat is needed anyway. A gas engine is fine if you just want to use it to navigate in and out of port, but if you want to motor or motor sail I feel a diesel is much better. The higher procurement cost of a diesel will be made back through its better reliability, longevity and fuel economy. A well made, naturally aspirated diesel engine will last a lifetime.| 5291|5237|2004-09-03 12:32:18|spencerj71|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|> 1) How can you tell whether an industrial engine will mate to a marine transmission? Will the necessity of buying a separate, possibly new, marine transmission negate any savings over buying a marine engine/transmission combination? The style/details of the ouput flange of an engine and bell housing of the gear are denoted by an automotive standard number, such as SAE- 1 (or similar). You need to match the bell housing of the transmission with the output of the engine. As for cost, that really is going to depend specifically what engine and gear you are looking at. > 2) What modifications must be made? Any unit will need either a marine exhaust manifold or a dry exhaust (which some recent posts suggested is not legal in the USA, I'm still not clear on this). A somewhat earlier post from a diesel mechanic suggested that a stationary engine such as from a generating plant would require modification to the injector pump as the engine is set up to run only at a specific rpm. Remote controls and instrumentation would be custom. Mounts would possibly be custom. What else? Dry exhaust is perfectly legal in the US. The US, like everyone else, is basically subscribing to IMO exhuast regulations. These limit what can be sold as new...I believe old engines are allowed to live out their days, so I don't think you need to be concerned there. Any industrial engine is likely air cooled, but you'll probably want to set it up to keel cool it. This will take some modification to the plumbing and thermostatic control.| 5292|5237|2004-09-03 13:19:12|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|I agree with all you said. I bought my 15 hp Yanmar new in 1979. About two years ago I had the injectors serviced and I replaced the rings and ground the valve seats. The filters get changed once in a while. This is pretty cheap and reliable power. The motor is impressively robust in construction. Hope my Nissan suns as good when I eventually get it in the boat. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: spencerj71 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 9:22 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? To me the primary reasons to choose diesel over gas (petrol) are that a diesel engine produces much greater torque and is more fuel efficient. Powering a boat is like driving up hill all the time. As gas engines produce low torque, they have to turn very quickly in order to move any weight up hill (or through the water). This causes them to wear out much quicker than a diesel engine. The advantage of a gas engine is that it is very light for its power output, which is why they are popular in cars and motorcyles and high speed power boats. This is not an advantage for sailboats or displacement power boats, as weight down low in the boat is needed anyway. A gas engine is fine if you just want to use it to navigate in and out of port, but if you want to motor or motor sail I feel a diesel is much better. The higher procurement cost of a diesel will be made back through its better reliability, longevity and fuel economy. A well made, naturally aspirated diesel engine will last a lifetime. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5293|5237|2004-09-03 14:25:40|David K McComber|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Speaking of dry exhaust, I have never seen a marine engine that did not have a water cooled exhaust manifold. After the manifold it can be either dry, or by having the seawater that cools the hear exchanger dump into the exhaust, wet. David McComber d.mccomber@... * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5294|5237|2004-09-03 15:36:57|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|All the drag boat types have a dry exhaust. Some changed slightly and allowed a trickle of water through to comply with poorly written noise bylaws. If there is enough air room or air provided by a fan there should not be a problem. There are millions of vehicles with engines in tight spaces but they do blow air through when moving. I wonder if some engines run the coolant through the manifold on a closed system. But it must not be neccessary. Skeg cooling for a sailboat and dry exhaust seems quite viable to me and many are doing it. I intend to run a dry exhaust in my fishing boat but I will use fans as well. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:25 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? Speaking of dry exhaust, I have never seen a marine engine that did not have a water cooled exhaust manifold. After the manifold it can be either dry, or by having the seawater that cools the hear exchanger dump into the exhaust, wet. David McComber d.mccomber@... * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5295|5237|2004-09-03 17:08:21|John Jones|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|There's all kinds of vessels with dry exhausts but most of them have are wrapped in a custom made fire proof blanket that covers the pipes & the muffler to where it exits the boat. This has rivits or buttons along the edges to enable one to wire them together, this blanket provides heat sheild protection and doubles as a noise barrier. Works good! John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > All the drag boat types have a dry exhaust. Some changed slightly and allowed a trickle of water through to comply with poorly written noise bylaws. If there is enough air room or air provided by a fan there should not be a problem. There are millions of vehicles with engines in tight spaces but they do blow air through when moving. I wonder if some engines run the coolant through the manifold on a closed system. But it must not be neccessary. Skeg cooling for a sailboat and dry exhaust seems quite viable to me and many are doing it. I intend to run a dry exhaust in my fishing boat but I will use fans as well. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:25 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > Speaking of dry exhaust, I have never seen a marine engine that did not have > a water cooled exhaust manifold. After the manifold it can be either dry, or > by having the seawater that cools the hear exchanger dump into the exhaust, > wet. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5296|5237|2004-09-03 20:48:34|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|I need help understanding this motor thing! There are folks that claim heavy industrial or heavy marine motors are the way to go, for a sailboat. I am wondering what that thinking is based on? I am talking about a sailboat large enough that it requires a motor in the following range. In about 1980 I had a Datsun pickup with a diesel. It ran 100,000 miles before the body rusted off and I was basically sitting on the frame. My brother ran his, couple year newer, Nissan almost 200,000 miles before the body rusted off. Let's say we averaged 50 miles per hour. His ran 4,000 hours and mine only ran 2,000. Our motors never had any mechanical failures and the heads were never removed from either. My VW rabbit diesel ran 150,000 miles but then blew a head gasket. I had been warned about that problem. My brother got more miles out of his because many of his miles were put on in dry desert conditions, were the body rusted less. Let's add dusty desert conditions. Last year I used my sailboat motor, what I thought was quite a bit, and had 100 hours on the hour meter. Based on my past experience, in a dust free environment, should I expect to get up to twenty trouble free years out of a Nissan? Gerald| 5297|5237|2004-09-03 21:20:11|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Richard wrote: 1) How can you tell whether an industrial engine will mate to a marine transmission? Manufacture a frame that you will solid mount the motor and gearbox to. The manufactured frame will then be shock mounted to the engine bed. The gearbox output shaft could have a manufactured flange that bolts direct to the flywheel. However, my choice is to mount a rubber dampened universal joint between motor and gearbox. Gerald| 5298|5237|2004-09-04 04:44:48|denis buggy|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|dear Gerald you can buy a car engine new in a crate for far less than you think and all boat manufactures are aware of this there are many good reasons why car engines are not used and you will not find any mainstream boat yard using car engines . the difference in quality in engine materials and machining is dramatic as you proceed up the quality ladder .I have seen pistons from a Cummins L10 after 1.3 million miles still within wear limits with no cracking and we used them again in the rebuild after a valve dropped . this would not raise any comment as you progress out of the field of bus engines and go to true marine engines which are built to a much better standard again . those of you who like me have bought mr gerrs books and still find propellers a mysterious black art should look at a great web site which with clear english and diagrams explains the workings of water-cooled exhausts and engine mountings and a great deal more and is a great way to see how it is done when money is no object . check out VETUS DEN OUDEN . AND THEN GO TO ENGLISH AND THEN TO MANUALS AND FEAST YOUR EYES . REGARDS DENIS ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 1:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? I need help understanding this motor thing! There are folks that claim heavy industrial or heavy marine motors are the way to go, for a sailboat. I am wondering what that thinking is based on? I am talking about a sailboat large enough that it requires a motor in the following range. In about 1980 I had a Datsun pickup with a diesel. It ran 100,000 miles before the body rusted off and I was basically sitting on the frame. My brother ran his, couple year newer, Nissan almost 200,000 miles before the body rusted off. Let's say we averaged 50 miles per hour. His ran 4,000 hours and mine only ran 2,000. Our motors never had any mechanical failures and the heads were never removed from either. My VW rabbit diesel ran 150,000 miles but then blew a head gasket. I had been warned about that problem. My brother got more miles out of his because many of his miles were put on in dry desert conditions, were the body rusted less. Let's add dusty desert conditions. Last year I used my sailboat motor, what I thought was quite a bit, and had 100 hours on the hour meter. Based on my past experience, in a dust free environment, should I expect to get up to twenty trouble free years out of a Nissan? Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5299|5237|2004-09-04 10:58:22|John Jones|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|If we all stop right here.......and think???........ we use our engine MOSTLY to putter out to a safe place to raise our sails and to putter back when we take them down or the wind dies and that never happens ;-) right. So the motor never really gets a chance to warm up and thats hard on it. Has anyone been checking out these Hybrid Electric cars and trucks? Or the all electric cars? These motors could be used on your boat, the batterys would double as ballast and charging could be done by shore power,solar panels,and wind generators, or you could drag a big prop off the taff rail while sailing and with you main's prop freewheeling while sailing along turns your motor backward and your motor becomes a generator all of this means you don't need fuel tanks which leaves all kinds of room for batterys. The end result of all those batterys is higher voltage DC that can easily be inverted to AC for your TV, comfuzer, sewing machine, drill, sander, microwave, and the all important "blender". Marine Electric Technology is not a new sience, at the Chicago worlds fair they used electric boats as a ride on some nearby lake and these same boats are still running today. The only maintenance is to replace brushes & bearings and with today's brushless motors, well that explains it's self. If your marina uses a meter on the shore power and you have the earlir mentioned wind generator and solar panels, once your battery bank is charged a little gizmo will match the cycles the city is feeding in and match the voltage AC and then feed it BACK onto the grid causing the meter to turn backwards..... You may very well end up with a negative hydro bill. These motors have all kinds of torque and when the batteys lose thier charge the motor slows. If you stop for a while the batterys regenerate and your good to go a little farther. Take a look at electric golf cart motors... they're tiny and yet they'll carry two huge golf bags and often two HUGE golfers around a golf coarse, up and down hills lots of stops and starts and sometimes twice around before recharging and these things are quiet, clean and last a long time. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Gerald you can buy a car engine new in a crate for far less than you think and all boat manufactures are aware of this there are many good reasons why car engines are not used and you will not find any mainstream boat yard using car engines . the difference in quality in engine materials and machining is dramatic as you proceed up the quality ladder .I have seen pistons from a Cummins L10 after 1.3 million miles still within wear limits with no cracking and we used them again in the rebuild after a valve dropped . this would not raise any comment as you progress out of the field of bus engines and go to true marine engines which are built to a much better standard again . those of you who like me have bought mr gerrs books and still find propellers a mysterious black art should look at a great web site which with clear english and diagrams explains the workings of water- cooled exhausts and engine mountings and a great deal more and is a great way to see how it is done when money is no object . check out VETUS DEN OUDEN . AND THEN GO TO ENGLISH AND THEN TO MANUALS AND FEAST YOUR EYES . REGARDS DENIS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 1:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > I need help understanding this motor thing! > There are folks that claim heavy industrial or heavy marine motors are > the way to go, for a sailboat. I am wondering what that thinking is > based on? I am talking about a sailboat large enough that it requires > a motor in the following range. > In about 1980 I had a Datsun pickup with a diesel. It ran 100,000 > miles before the body rusted off and I was basically sitting on the > frame. My brother ran his, couple year newer, Nissan almost 200,000 > miles before the body rusted off. Let's say we averaged 50 miles per > hour. His ran 4,000 hours and mine only ran 2,000. Our motors never > had any mechanical failures and the heads were never removed from > either. My VW rabbit diesel ran 150,000 miles but then blew a head > gasket. I had been warned about that problem. My brother got more > miles out of his because many of his miles were put on in dry desert > conditions, were the body rusted less. Let's add dusty desert conditions. > Last year I used my sailboat motor, what I thought was quite a bit, > and had 100 hours on the hour meter. Based on my past experience, in a > dust free environment, should I expect to get up to twenty trouble > free years out of a Nissan? > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5300|5237|2004-09-04 11:48:49|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Wow 1.3 million miles. That means if installed in my sailboat I could run the motor one hour per day for the next 71 years. I might live to be 132 years old but will I still want to sail? You pointed out a great site. There is a lot to be learned just by looking at their pictures. They list a 42 HP Mitsubishi 1.7 with a Hurth gearbox. The price is $9,658. I bought a new VW 1.9 still in the crate for less than $2,000. I priced a new Hurth at the boat show and they wanted around $2,000. The question becomes, can I slap the two together, cool the motor, and dump the exhaust for $5,658. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Gerald you can buy a car engine new in a crate for far less than you think and all boat manufactures are aware of this there are many good reasons why car engines are not used and you will not find any mainstream boat yard using car engines . the difference in quality in engine materials and machining is dramatic as you proceed up the quality ladder .I have seen pistons from a Cummins L10 after 1.3 million miles still within wear limits with no cracking and we used them again in the rebuild after a valve dropped . this would not raise any comment as you progress out of the field of bus engines and go to true marine engines which are built to a much better standard again . those of you who like me have bought mr gerrs books and still find propellers a mysterious black art should look at a great web site which with clear english and diagrams explains the workings of water-cooled exhausts and engine mountings and a great deal more and is a great way to see how it is done when money is no object . check out VETUS DEN OUDEN . AND THEN GO TO ENGLISH AND THEN TO MANUALS AND FEAST YOUR EYES . REGARDS DENIS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 1:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > I need help understanding this motor thing! > There are folks that claim heavy industrial or heavy marine motors are > the way to go, for a sailboat. I am wondering what that thinking is > based on? I am talking about a sailboat large enough that it requires > a motor in the following range. > In about 1980 I had a Datsun pickup with a diesel. It ran 100,000 > miles before the body rusted off and I was basically sitting on the > frame. My brother ran his, couple year newer, Nissan almost 200,000 > miles before the body rusted off. Let's say we averaged 50 miles per > hour. His ran 4,000 hours and mine only ran 2,000. Our motors never > had any mechanical failures and the heads were never removed from > either. My VW rabbit diesel ran 150,000 miles but then blew a head > gasket. I had been warned about that problem. My brother got more > miles out of his because many of his miles were put on in dry desert > conditions, were the body rusted less. Let's add dusty desert conditions. > Last year I used my sailboat motor, what I thought was quite a bit, > and had 100 hours on the hour meter. Based on my past experience, in a > dust free environment, should I expect to get up to twenty trouble > free years out of a Nissan? > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5301|5301|2004-09-04 13:01:24|Alex|launch announcement|Another origamiboat launched! I just got a phone call from John in Seattle that his boat, a new twin-keel BS36, was launched a few days ago. He will install the rig shortly, as soon as the sails are complete. He mentioned that his rig so far (minus sails) has cost him only $500 US. John reports that the 40 horse Isuzu seems to be a perfect match for the hull and that she really charges along at 1200 rpm. He also enjoyed the fact that the hull turns very easily, ("on a dime", he said). Hopefully we'll hear more from him this fall when he might come up my way and we can get some shots to put in an origamiboats2 group album. John is having his sailmaker stitch on the word "BS 36" on his mainsail, and it struck him that it would be neat to have a "class" symbol on the sail too. Any ideas out there? It would be great if people could send in their submissions for a good, representative symbol to put on the sail. Alex| 5302|5237|2004-09-04 13:33:35|David K McComber|Wet or dry exhaust|Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. David McComber d.mccomber@... * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5303|5237|2004-09-04 14:15:35|denis buggy|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|dear gerald there are co world wide which will make up almost any plate and bell housing to join anything to anything and some remarkable claims will be made ( look up marinising engines ) however you will have to contact the gearbox maker for advice on whether everything will work and you will need to know your prop size and that needs an expert to advise you before you make any decisions as everything must match up engine /box / propsize +pitch and type . and to do all that the prop expert will need to know all about your boat hull i am not the person to advise you as i know little about boats however i have worked in a broad engineering field for the past 27 years and know a little about engines and gearboxes . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 4:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? Wow 1.3 million miles. That means if installed in my sailboat I could run the motor one hour per day for the next 71 years. I might live to be 132 years old but will I still want to sail? You pointed out a great site. There is a lot to be learned just by looking at their pictures. They list a 42 HP Mitsubishi 1.7 with a Hurth gearbox. The price is $9,658. I bought a new VW 1.9 still in the crate for less than $2,000. I priced a new Hurth at the boat show and they wanted around $2,000. The question becomes, can I slap the two together, cool the motor, and dump the exhaust for $5,658. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Gerald you can buy a car engine new in a crate for far less than you think and all boat manufactures are aware of this there are many good reasons why car engines are not used and you will not find any mainstream boat yard using car engines . the difference in quality in engine materials and machining is dramatic as you proceed up the quality ladder .I have seen pistons from a Cummins L10 after 1.3 million miles still within wear limits with no cracking and we used them again in the rebuild after a valve dropped . this would not raise any comment as you progress out of the field of bus engines and go to true marine engines which are built to a much better standard again . those of you who like me have bought mr gerrs books and still find propellers a mysterious black art should look at a great web site which with clear english and diagrams explains the workings of water-cooled exhausts and engine mountings and a great deal more and is a great way to see how it is done when money is no object . check out VETUS DEN OUDEN . AND THEN GO TO ENGLISH AND THEN TO MANUALS AND FEAST YOUR EYES . REGARDS DENIS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 1:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > I need help understanding this motor thing! > There are folks that claim heavy industrial or heavy marine motors are > the way to go, for a sailboat. I am wondering what that thinking is > based on? I am talking about a sailboat large enough that it requires > a motor in the following range. > In about 1980 I had a Datsun pickup with a diesel. It ran 100,000 > miles before the body rusted off and I was basically sitting on the > frame. My brother ran his, couple year newer, Nissan almost 200,000 > miles before the body rusted off. Let's say we averaged 50 miles per > hour. His ran 4,000 hours and mine only ran 2,000. Our motors never > had any mechanical failures and the heads were never removed from > either. My VW rabbit diesel ran 150,000 miles but then blew a head > gasket. I had been warned about that problem. My brother got more > miles out of his because many of his miles were put on in dry desert > conditions, were the body rusted less. Let's add dusty desert conditions. > Last year I used my sailboat motor, what I thought was quite a bit, > and had 100 hours on the hour meter. Based on my past experience, in a > dust free environment, should I expect to get up to twenty trouble > free years out of a Nissan? > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5304|5237|2004-09-04 15:09:31|Robert Gainer|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|David, It is possible to get an air-cooled engine that does not have a water-cooled manifold. I am not very knowledgeable about engines and it may be more common in Europe then in the United States. The Lister ST-2 is a two-cylinder diesel for example, it is air cooled without any water in any part of the system. The fact that you can find lots of water cooled manifolds only means that there are lots of water cooled engines, not that there are no air cooled ones. The air-cooled manifolds might be listed in a different parts book. I don�t know how common air-cooled is now, but I sailed on a boat out of England and the engine was air-cooled. One thing that I think is interesting is that I have never seen or heard of an air-cooled engine that is larger then 3 cylinders. There may come a point at which you cannot get enough heat transfer to make the engine cool properly without a water jacket. All the best, Robert Gainer >From: "David K McComber" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust >Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:23 -0400 > >Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing >that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with >one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating >equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water >cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > >If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is >really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > >David McComber > >d.mccomber@... > > > >* > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/| 5305|5237|2004-09-04 16:11:24|edward_stoneuk|Air cooled engines|Robert, From memory the following were air-cooled motors of more than three cylinders: VW Beetle flat four, Wisconsin stationary vee four, Deutz industrial engines up to a vee twelve and those multi cylinder rotary aero engines. My father tried to make a grain drier using a Wisconsin vee four from an old baler to belt drive an air blower. The Wisconsin's cooling fan was on the flywheel and blew air around the engine inside a sheet steel jacket and out around the exhaust manifold. Dad blanked off the cooling fan to allow him to reverse the flow of hot air and ducted it through the air blower to plenum chambers under the grain silos. The system now took hot air from around the exhaust manifold down around the crankase and then to the grain drier. The motor overheated and seized. Deutz still make air- cooled industrial engines. Air cooled engines are noisy. The Wisconsin with 20' of 2" pipe to carry the exhaust out of the barn was marvelously so. When I was younger I enjoyed noisy engines, now I have tinitus and find some frequencies difficult to hear. The last thing I would want is to share a steel boat with an air cooled engine. Regards, Ted| 5306|5237|2004-09-04 16:33:06|sae140|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > I've spent a good deal of time in and around petrol engines, but i > know very little about deisel engines, and whenever i've asked why > they are preferred for marine use i'm given the safety answer. In > Annia Hill's book she scoff at this argument, claiming that if the > fuel is stored on deck (in well-ventilated deck boxes) there's no > problem. Every so often on one or other of my motorcycles i'd > encounter a leaking carburettor, and i guess this could be fatal on > a boat. Maybe i've answered my own question, but is this the only > reason? Safety is the big argument against petrol engines, damp ignition is another. But there are many positive aspects. I've just bought an Austin 1100 petrol engine with integral Watermota 2:1 gearbox for less than the cost of a set of diesel injectors. Even if I spend as much again re-building it, the capital investment involved is still minimal. A petrol engine can be stripped down to it's last nut and bolt and re-built 'in the field' with only simple hand tools. With petrol engines so unpopular, spares and even whole units can easily be stockpiled. (Nick Skeates of Wylo II fame even carries a complete spare engine !) They are smoother, less noisy, and lighter. They start more easily in cold weather than a diesel, and require a less powerful starter battery. They are happy with cheap and cheerful lube oil in the sump, and require less frequent oil changes. And lastly, the boat itself doesn't end up stinking of diesel, which tends to make me feel a bit sick. Admittedly diesel is a more economic fuel to use, but if you add capital expenditure, maintenance, and repair costs into the equation, using petrol can come out streets ahead. I have a theoretical idea about solving the safety issue, and that is to completely isolate the petrol from the engine, and thus away from the cabin. The idea is to keep a running tank of petrol together with the carburettor and electric fuel pump in a cockpit locker or similar steel 'box'. Gauze mesh over the vent outlet as usual, with fumes draining overboard, or into the cockpit/footwell and then out through the drains. The carburettor is mounted on the wall of the cockpit locker nearest to the engine, and connected to the inlet manifold via a wide-bore hose. This hose is the only 'petrol' component to enter the boat and appears to be the only vulnerable component of the design. As a bonus, theory suggests that the engine could then be completely sealed-off - we'll see. I envisage starting may take a couple of extra turns, but apart from that I don't see any other penalty in this kind of arrangement. I'll be experimenting with this design over the winter now I have a spare engine to play with. If anyone can see a glaring mistake I've overlooked, I'd appreciate the tip-off. Colin| 5307|5237|2004-09-04 16:48:13|Robert Gainer|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Colin said, >The carburettor is mounted on the wall of the cockpit locker nearest >to the engine, and connected to the inlet manifold via a wide-bore >hose. This hose is the only 'petrol' component to enter the boat and >appears to be the only vulnerable component of the design. Colin, I think the hose will contain an explosive mixture of air and gas in a somewhat larger volume then I think is prudent. Also if the gas is higher then the engine space can the gas run downhill under any circumstance that you can think of and flood the engine box. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx| 5308|5256|2004-09-04 17:18:46|brentswain38|Re: Steel mast for 26 footer?|I've been leery about a steel mast on anything under 36 ft because of the weight ,altho they have been used on a 31 successfully. If the weight can be kept to that of a wood mast, then go for it.Thin enough wall sections can be tricky to weld , and thin walls can corrode thru quickly if there is any problem witht the paint. I have a wooden mast , a 6X4 inch solid , air dried sitka spruce , 40 ft long, with no glue lines and three knots the size of your little finger nail. It's been bare ,gray weathered wood , with no maintenance for the last 16 years . The only dry rot has been an inch or so around the mast step screws in a few places. There is enough wood there that I haven't worried about it.Being bare makes it easy to keep track of any rot, something which would be far more difficult if I'd coated it.The price was right and it was all I could afford at the time. I've been given no reason to give up cruising time to replace it.Being free ,I've got my money's worth out of it in 20 years of use . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > I've read several comments that a steel mast is not a good idea on the > 26 and 30 footers, making them too tender. However, I would think > this is simply a matter of using a lighter gauge steel mast, no? > > I really don't look forward to the maintenance of a wood mast on my > nice steel boat, and I simply don't want aluminum anywhere near my > boat. > > So, what gauge of 4"o.d. pipe would approximate (say within 25%) the > weight of a 3"x4.5" solid spruce or fir, and what is the strength vs > each? Any other comments would be welcomed. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5309|5309|2004-09-04 17:29:40|ben_azo|Vielstoffmotor ???|http://man630.jein-design.de/ http://www.TDv2320-011.de/ will give you an insight in an engine that takes almost all fuels and runs even fine on cheap petroleum WOW Magirus Deutz made more than 1500 000 aircooled dieselengines , sure nice on boats and ships Lister is a fine engine A 100 options to look at , all depend on what you want . KISS is the way to go , but why keep it simple if you can find a harder and more difficult to realise solution thats a lot harder on maintenance ??? Fighting over reinventing the wheel sure can be fun . I mean the wheel to turn the variable pitch prop , cause with that option you dont need a reverse , you can even feather the prop while sailing or use it héhéhé to drive your VAIO alternator , to run your fridge while sailing .... but why would you need a cold beer ??? I sure love one from time to time. Old Ben| 5310|5237|2004-09-04 17:32:58|brentswain38|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|A water jacket manifold is an extremely simple thing to weld up. Anyone who can build something as complex as a hull can build something as simple as a water jacket manifold.The water from it goes thru a hot water tank , then into the skeg.I rebuilt mine out of stainless after the mild steel one corroded too much from the outside. I'm moored next to yet another wet exhuast victim.There seem to be plenty of them around. The engine is siezed. I sailed home from Tonga last year with another boat which had gone thru two engines ,both of which died from wet exhuasts, since 1996. A diesel repair mechanic in Port Townsend was quoted as having said " If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust , the diesel repair people would all be out of work." When a diesel mechanic tries to talk you into a wet exhuast and heat exchanger, he may be trying to enhance his future empoloyment prospects in the repair business. Don't be foolish. Stick to a dry exhuast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5311|5237|2004-09-04 23:48:41|John Jones|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|Lister & petter are both air cooled diesels but "WHY" why would anyone want to use an air cooled engine in a boat when such an efficiant cooling medium is so readilly available.... Boggles the mind!!! If you MUST have air cooling, why not mount an outboard seagull or briggs& stratton outboard motor so it can get efficient coolling. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" < robert_gainer_2@h...> wrote: > David, > It is possible to get an air-cooled engine that does not have a water-cooled > manifold. I am not very knowledgeable about engines and it may be more > common in Europe then in the United States. The Lister ST-2 is a > two-cylinder diesel for example, it is air cooled without any water in any > part of the system. > > The fact that you can find lots of water cooled manifolds only means that > there are lots of water cooled engines, not that there are no air cooled > ones. The air-cooled manifolds might be listed in a different parts book. I > don't know how common air-cooled is now, but I sailed on a boat out of > England and the engine was air-cooled. One thing that I think is interesting > is that I have never seen or heard of an air-cooled engine that is larger > then 3 cylinders. There may come a point at which you cannot get enough heat > transfer to make the engine cool properly without a water jacket. > All the best, > Robert Gainer > > > > >From: "David K McComber" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > >Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:23 -0400 > > > >Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > >that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > >one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > >equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > >cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > > >If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > >really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > > > > >David McComber > > > >d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > >* > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ | 5312|5237|2004-09-04 23:51:09|John Jones|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|You could always go electric ... No exhaust is needed!! kewl --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" < robert_gainer_2@h...> wrote: > David, > It is possible to get an air-cooled engine that does not have a water-cooled > manifold. I am not very knowledgeable about engines and it may be more > common in Europe then in the United States. The Lister ST-2 is a > two-cylinder diesel for example, it is air cooled without any water in any > part of the system. > > The fact that you can find lots of water cooled manifolds only means that > there are lots of water cooled engines, not that there are no air cooled > ones. The air-cooled manifolds might be listed in a different parts book. I > don't know how common air-cooled is now, but I sailed on a boat out of > England and the engine was air-cooled. One thing that I think is interesting > is that I have never seen or heard of an air-cooled engine that is larger > then 3 cylinders. There may come a point at which you cannot get enough heat > transfer to make the engine cool properly without a water jacket. > All the best, > Robert Gainer > > > > >From: "David K McComber" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > >Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:23 -0400 > > > >Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > >that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > >one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > >equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > >cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > > >If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > >really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > > > > >David McComber > > > >d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > >* > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ | 5313|5278|2004-09-05 04:34:21|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|The Miller 175 is an "honest" machine. It will deliver the goods if used correctly on a power supply not restricted by a long extension lead. There may be some heavy section transition welds which need careful planning in light of the position of these welds. Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire penetrates further in all positions. The above relates to the effective or correct welding technique for the sections being joined. It comes down to "Horses for courses". Terry -----Original Message----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL [mailto:rockrothwell@...] Sent: Friday, 3 September 2004 5:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: rockrothwell@... Subject: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds Gary & Alex, No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 way through building my boat! at the same time.....oh Shit! Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as it's a really sweet little unit The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller states very cleary in their specs that the unit will do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of the time. For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the hull on all welds. Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material after he finnished his hull so I have the full range of material sizes and will do lost of testing & busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds you mentioned. At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) another glass boat. Thanks Lads, Shane Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 From: "Gary H. Lucas" Subject: Re: Welder Size Shane, At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people off, I'll repeat this once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed machine then it is too small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be welding with 0.045" welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The smaller wire can not carry enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The miller 175 has another problem even if it can put out enough current to use the 0,045" wire. It can't put out enough current at the start, when the current goes WAY up, so it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding involves lots of skip welding this is very bad. I know about this because I used to get thousands of parts hot dipped galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding welds with poor penetration. After you throw away several thousand parts because they fall apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of the larger wire. Note that I am not saying the welder can't make perfectly good welds in the hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. What I am saying is that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a high percentage of bad parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts in each batch to virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. One vendor thanked me. Not because he produced better welds, but because once his guys stopped bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with they realized the deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went lots quicker. That saved them and me money. Another important point is that since are welding faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is less, and so is the distortion you get. In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than stick welders. A small MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a small stick welder would not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my advice, get a bigger machine and use a bigger wire. Gary H. Lucas Message: 11 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 From: "Alex" Subject: AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5314|5237|2004-09-05 05:34:09|denis buggy|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|dear Colin an intake manifold and an exhaust manifold are a science on their own and I would not recommended you reversing the atomising of a carburettor and the passing the petrol through a hose . all handling of petrol must be done with spark proof alloys and proper rated plastics and hoses.regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 9:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > I've spent a good deal of time in and around petrol engines, but i > know very little about deisel engines, and whenever i've asked why > they are preferred for marine use i'm given the safety answer. In > Annia Hill's book she scoff at this argument, claiming that if the > fuel is stored on deck (in well-ventilated deck boxes) there's no > problem. Every so often on one or other of my motorcycles i'd > encounter a leaking carburettor, and i guess this could be fatal on > a boat. Maybe i've answered my own question, but is this the only > reason? Safety is the big argument against petrol engines, damp ignition is another. But there are many positive aspects. I've just bought an Austin 1100 petrol engine with integral Watermota 2:1 gearbox for less than the cost of a set of diesel injectors. Even if I spend as much again re-building it, the capital investment involved is still minimal. A petrol engine can be stripped down to it's last nut and bolt and re-built 'in the field' with only simple hand tools. With petrol engines so unpopular, spares and even whole units can easily be stockpiled. (Nick Skeates of Wylo II fame even carries a complete spare engine !) They are smoother, less noisy, and lighter. They start more easily in cold weather than a diesel, and require a less powerful starter battery. They are happy with cheap and cheerful lube oil in the sump, and require less frequent oil changes. And lastly, the boat itself doesn't end up stinking of diesel, which tends to make me feel a bit sick. Admittedly diesel is a more economic fuel to use, but if you add capital expenditure, maintenance, and repair costs into the equation, using petrol can come out streets ahead. I have a theoretical idea about solving the safety issue, and that is to completely isolate the petrol from the engine, and thus away from the cabin. The idea is to keep a running tank of petrol together with the carburettor and electric fuel pump in a cockpit locker or similar steel 'box'. Gauze mesh over the vent outlet as usual, with fumes draining overboard, or into the cockpit/footwell and then out through the drains. The carburettor is mounted on the wall of the cockpit locker nearest to the engine, and connected to the inlet manifold via a wide-bore hose. This hose is the only 'petrol' component to enter the boat and appears to be the only vulnerable component of the design. As a bonus, theory suggests that the engine could then be completely sealed-off - we'll see. I envisage starting may take a couple of extra turns, but apart from that I don't see any other penalty in this kind of arrangement. I'll be experimenting with this design over the winter now I have a spare engine to play with. If anyone can see a glaring mistake I've overlooked, I'd appreciate the tip-off. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5315|5315|2004-09-05 15:29:04|SHANE ROTHWELL|Wet or dry exhause|David, I've seen lots of dry exhaust systems on sailboats. On every tug and working boat that I've ever been on had a dry exhaust. Done properly it is much simpler & easier than wet exhaust (having rebuilt a couple of wet exhaust systmes) West marine & Boat us are in the business of SELLING PRODUCT and are by no means an authority on anything other than their sales quantities Shane Rothwell ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5317|5237|2004-09-05 19:57:00|David K McComber|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|Yes it is possible to get air cooled engines but they need a water cooled exhaust manifold, I once hade a test sail on one such boat. None of the engines that are marineizwd come with a water-cooled exhaust manifold. Vetus marine diesel engines, Yanmar marine, John Deere, Volvo Penta, Cat, Detroit diesel, and Cummins Marine and Mercury MerCruiser, All of these engines when they are not used for boats don't have a water-cooled exhaust manifold. All have a watercooled manifould when sold for boats. It is only added when the engine is marineized. I can't believe that every company that marinizes truck, car, or industrial engines, would go to the expense of changing the exhaust manifold if it weren't required by law. David McComber d.mccomber@... David, It is possible to get an air-cooled engine that does not have a water-cooled manifold. I am not very knowledgeable about engines and it may be more common in Europe then in the United States. The Lister ST-2 is a two-cylinder diesel for example, it is air cooled without any water in any part of the system. The fact that you can find lots of water cooled manifolds only means that there are lots of water cooled engines, not that there are no air cooled ones. The air-cooled manifolds might be listed in a different parts book. I don't know how common air-cooled is now, but I sailed on a boat out of England and the engine was air-cooled. One thing that I think is interesting is that I have never seen or heard of an air-cooled engine that is larger then 3 cylinders. There may come a point at which you cannot get enough heat transfer to make the engine cool properly without a water jacket. All the best, Robert Gainer| 5318|5237|2004-09-05 20:54:16|David K McComber|Wet or dry exhaust again|Apparently there is still some confusion about marine exhaust. All marine engines have a water cooled exhaust manifold. The exhaust is dry when it exits the water cooled manifold. This manifold shears the engine coolant, and is cooled in the same manner as the rest of the collect is cooled. This can be with a heat exchanger, or keel cooled, are whatever other method you chouse. If you want a dry exhaust then you connect a stainless flexible exhaust hose to the manifold and the dry exhaust system to that. If you a wet exhaust, you need an exhaust water injector elbow connected to the water cooled manifold. Sea water is injected into the exhaust at this point. David McComber d.mccomber@... * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5319|5237|2004-09-05 22:30:14|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Wet or dry exhaust again|Sorry, that is not true. I have a air cooled 13 Hp two cylinder Lister and it does not have a water cooled manifold. It is a marine engine and was sold as one. And I have to say that it is great. Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- From: David K McComber [mailto:d.mccomber@...] Sent: Monday, 6 September 2004 12:54 p.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust again Apparently there is still some confusion about marine exhaust. All marine engines have a water cooled exhaust manifold. The exhaust is dry when it exits the water cooled manifold. This manifold shears the engine coolant, and is cooled in the same manner as the rest of the collect is cooled. This can be with a heat exchanger, or keel cooled, are whatever other method you chouse. If you want a dry exhaust then you connect a stainless flexible exhaust hose to the manifold and the dry exhaust system to that. If you a wet exhaust, you need an exhaust water injector elbow connected to the water cooled manifold. Sea water is injected into the exhaust at this point. David McComber d.mccomber@... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 3/09/2004| 5320|5237|2004-09-06 00:32:17|Alex|Re: Air cooled engines|I once took a voyage on an open 26' Canadian Coast Guard lanch which had a Deutz diesel 44 hp -- a great piece of engineering, dependable and powerful, but yes, quite noisy! Hearing protection was the order of the day, and I'm glad I had it. I think it's the whine of the fan which has to move a huge mass of air. The engine was out in the open in the centre of the vessel where it could breathe, but also for this reason was loud. I did wonder since that time how it would breathe stuck down in the engine compartment of my future boat -- certainly you'd need a huge intake and air exhaust port, methinks. It would be a challenge to work out, but nothing's impossible, right? I'd make sure I could dog down a cover on those in and out air ports for heavy weather. Bolger specifies twin small Deutzes on one of his designs, the 36 foot minimalist ocean- cruiser "Ataraxia". It featured baffles to cover up the large air intakes and exhausts. I have never heard if the boat was built and trialed but it would be interesting to find out. I imagine that a Swain boat would need similarly sized air intakes and exhausts. Using the ocean as a nice heat-sink via the skeg cooling on a Brent Boat seems to me the simplest and most direct approach, and allows a variety of engines to be installed over the life of a boat. But hey, don't rule out a Deutz if you were handed a one on a platter gratis...some of us (me) are working on a shoestring and will work with what falls in our laps, and what we can afford at the time. I'd still install the piping for skeg cooling at the build stage in any case, to allow a wide re-powering choices should the need arise. Alex| 5321|5321|2004-09-06 11:12:08|knutfg|Cooling of engines|I am no expert on these matters (engines in sailboats), but even limited ppersonal experience can be used to draw some conclusions. Back in the 70'ties I was fresh out of university and money was a limiting factor (to say the least). I hade a 20' sailboat, very sturdy and solidly built, that I wanted to take on a summer expedition from the N-West coast of Norway, to Shetland, back to the South tip of Norway and around into the Oslo fjord. For the trip I wanted to skip the Seagull outboard and install a normal inboard engine. Long story short, I was talked into placing an air cooled gasoline engine under the steps down to the cabin, with a ventilation channel and a fan to suck air out of the engine compartment. The set-up worked pretty well for the normal use of getting in and out of harbour, but for long-time operation at some load the temperature got too high. In practical terms, it meant that I had to use only half throttle and for may be 10 to 15 minutes at a time, otherwise I would run the risk of overheating, not to mention the potential for an explosive fire. The trip went well, but the engine set-up was not acceptable from a safety viewpoint. Regarding cooling of diesel engines, I thought there were two DIFFERENT issues to take care of. (1)-Cooling of the engine block, where I would never even consider air-cooling for a normal enclosed sailboat installation. Especially since we have easy access to plenty of cooling water (the sea). The installation of a heat exchanger in the skeg or a keel must be the optimal solution as far as I can see. No through-hulls and no risk of blocked intakes. (2)- Cooling of the exhaust manifold must be a separate issue and the solution is not dependent on cooling method for the engine block? You can choose water-cooled exhaust manifold with water injection into the exhaust line, or a completely dry exhaust system, which will require proper heat insulation of the manifold and the exhaust line (and exhaust port through the hull). The dry system again has the advantage of no need for through-hull and water intake. In other words, if the heat insulation can be executed in a proper and safe way, then why would anyone want the wet system (which for some reason is so dominant)? As I said, I am no expert on these matters and would therefore much appreciate comments from more knowledgable Forum participants. Have I understood these matters reasonably correct, or are there some important issues here that I have overlooked or got wrong? Knut| 5322|5257|2004-09-06 11:45:47|Courtney Thomas|Re: Harbor Freight's $250 Industrial sewing machine?|You need zigzag capability too. HTH Brent Geery wrote: > Anyone seen this machine? Is it up to the task of making sails?: > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3914 > > Industrial quality machine takes on heavy canvas, sailcloth, and > lightweight leather applications. Extremely quiet and reliable. > Includes two screwdrivers, three bobbins, sewing machine oil. > > * High speed single needle lock-stitch > * Cast iron frame with stainless steel components > * Makes seams in fabric up to 5/16'' thick > * Link style needle feed for reduced slippage > * Forward and reverse feed > * Automatic lubrication > * Foot pedal operation > * Manual- or knee-operated presser foot lifting arm > > 110/220V; 5500 strokes per minute; Overall dimensions: 47-1/4" L x > 18-1/2" W x 30" H; Weight: 61.6 lbs. Table sold separately. > > ITEM 3914-2VGA $249.99 > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5323|5237|2004-09-06 13:36:18|sae140|Re: Wet or dry exhaust again|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Sorry, that is not true. I have a air cooled 13 Hp two cylinder > Lister and it does not have a water cooled manifold. It is a marine > engine and was sold as one. Likewise, the engine I've just bought is a purpose built marine 4- cylinder water-cooled 25 HP petrol, and much to my suprise has run for the last 30 years without a water-cooled manifold. Attached to the cast-iron exhaust manifold is just 3" of steel pipe which in turn is brazed to a copper exhaust pipe. I can only suggest that a low compression marine petrol engine generates orders of magnitude less heat than it's automobile equivalent, which would melt this arrangement in double quick time. (I know - 'cause I tried brazing an exhaust pipe as a kid - it fell off after 2 mins.) Dunno about diesels. But - despite all this, fabricating a water-cooled manifold is top of my 'to do' list. Colin| 5324|5237|2004-09-06 14:03:59|Henri Naths|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Gerald, do you know the weight of a vw. 1.9 H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 31 August, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? The question was ask "what size for a 36' steel." I am guessing that the missing word in the sentence was SAILBOAT? The plans from Roberto Barros for my 36' sailboat call for a 40 HP Yanmar. I plan to use the boat for a short time and then sell it and that is the reason I am installing the Yanmar. Since we are talking sailboat there are some important questions that come to mind: How many hours a year will you use the motor? Is the ability to hand crank a must? A 33 HP Yanmar weighs 815 pounds. Do you consider that heavy for a sailboat motor? Are you willing to live with a motor that sounds like it was manufactured in 1910? I just sold a wooden sailboat without the 1.9 VW motor. I plan to install it in my next boat and I would not trade it for 3 Yanmars. The VW has an aluminum head and a timing belt. Sea water never touches the inside of the motor. I have told the motor that it is in a small car traveling across the flats of Nebraska. Fact is the motor doesn't know what it is installed in. VW is currently using a 1.9 and selling it ready to bolt into your boat. Engine parts are available almost everywhere. I have some inside information regarding Caterpillar engines. We didn't manufacture special engines for boats. Were the engines tuned for special applications? Sure they were. I would say you are on the right track. Keep researching car engines. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > I'm starting to shop around ie. keep my eyes open for a diesel > engine. What size would be best for the 36 ft. steel? Any ideas on > where to find them (besides new ones they cost too much). I'm toying > with the idea of pulling one out of a car or truck but my knowledge > of engines, drive trains etc. is severly limited. > Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5325|5321|2004-09-06 14:25:22|Michael Casling|Re: Cooling of engines|Knut, I think you have the basic figure out for this. An air colled engine needs air, it gets it from motion or a fan. If it is enclosed in a boat it needs room for air, or air pumped in. An oil cooler can be added to help cool the engine. I have seen and heard enough evidence in favour of dry exhausts that I plan to do it. I will either cool my motor with a skeg type cooler arrangement or a radiator. What the manufacturers do is not always what might be best. They build what is acceptable to the consumers not what is the safest, however that has slowly been changing. They had cable brakes on a 38 Ford while Chev had hydraulic brakes. Side valve motors were used until 1955. An air cooled motor works fine, but a liquid cooled motor will maintain horsepower longer and can be built with a bit closer tolerances. We ran the 250cc Yamaha race bikes side by side, some were air cooled some were liquid cooled. They both made the same power but the air cooled engines faded a little when they got hot from distortion. For non racing applications air cooled works fine. The engine in my farm truck works just as hard as it would in a boat, and it has dry exhaust manifolds. In fact my mechanic friend and I can not think of any engines that cool the exhaust manifold, so it does not seem to matter if the manifolds get hot. In a small boat with cramped space this might be a problem so pumping the cooling liquid out with the exhaust fixes two problems, it gets rid of the liquid and it cools the exhaust, but I think the primary function is to get rid of the liquid. If you are a manufacturer who cares about the damage done by saltwater ? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "knutfg" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 8:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Cooling of engines > As I said, I am no expert on these matters and would therefore much > appreciate comments from more knowledgable Forum participants. Have > I understood these matters reasonably correct, or are there some > important issues here that I have overlooked or got wrong? > > Knut | 5326|5237|2004-09-06 14:32:47|Henri Naths|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Sorry Michael..I have to take issue with Norton Commando 750 : I had one for years never broke the crank...... never heard of one breaking, maybe I was lucky. Lots of vibration. Sorry this is not about boats Cheers Henri ps I love my Triumph 650 Bonny ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 01 September, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? Matt, some interesting points. The old British twins would still shake even if balanced as you said. Some early engines are just poor designs compared to the newer stuff. Henry Royce said you only have to balance the vibration out of the operating range which is much easier if the engine only does 3000 rpm. You can not hand crank a small Yanmar. The foot crank with the better purchase power of a leg is much better. A diesel with a foot crank would be nice and I believe that some earlier models have them. A spare starter motor and good batteries are the safe guard for modern diesels. My experience with my 25 year old Yanmar has been pleasant. It is built very solid. 663cc making 15 hp compared to the Norton of 750cc and 85 hp at which point the crank brakes every year or so. And that is why the Japanese motors are so much better. Although there are plenty of petrol powered motors in boats I would only use it for an outboard motor and leave the fuel can in a ventilated area. Any spills from the motor do not go in the boat. Where and when did you race and on what, if it gets too far from boats send me a note direct. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: normanbywaite To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? Interesting. Is your VW motor the old air cooled flat four (i.e. two cylinders on the left, two on the right)? If so, how do you cool it? Simply by having good ventilation around it? I used to race motorcycles, and we always had loads of spare power on tap, (and solid engine mounts for that matter, which was not a problem so long as the motor had had the crankshaft balanced - when they come straight out of the factory, the crank is basically popped out of a mould and ground a little. If the crank gets balanced properly, and the rods and pistons are tweaked so that they weigh EXACTLY the same amount, virtually all vibration ceases). I've often speculated about using an air cooled motorcycle engine - some of the early 1000cc Kawasaki engines were utterly bullet proof, and had plenty of tourque, as well as a simple yet seemingly immortal electronic ignition, rather than the hundred-year-old distributor cap arrangement that car manufacturers persist with. They even have the old kick starter - what do you say, feel like kick starting your vessel? That would look amusing. If you use a gasoline engine, do you store the fuel on deck for safety? This is what some recommend. Cheers Gerald, Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5327|5263|2004-09-06 14:55:57|Henri Naths|Re: AC stick|Alex , Duly noted and agreed. The lincoln 225 is a great buss box and the 25 years I owned mine I never paid attention to the 20 % duty cycle and it never it never let me down.(Maybe the way they make them now a guy would have to be more careful) I would not hesitate to weld a boat together with one, with the ac rods Air Liquide make now, no problem. Cheers Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 02 September, 2004 12:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5328|5237|2004-09-06 15:21:00|Henri Naths|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|Michael,...the crank always balances the pistons . H. (Yamaha 650 and 750 had severe balance problems in the 70's) ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 02 September, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? The British twins were as bad as a single because both pistons went up and down together. And that is a lot of mass with nothing to balance it. Newer motors will have a counter balancer that makes life a lot better. The British new how to make good frames but the Japanese sure improved the engines. My Yanmar 15 is a bit of a pounder but it sure is reliable and is built to last a long time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? For eleven years I built and drove race cars. I never started a season without a balanced engine. However, I ended a few. All the engines were solid mounted. I do not recall losing even one bolt due to vibration or for any other reason. However, almost every bolt was wired or had a drop of loctite. I also checked the car over after each and every show. On the other hand. I have a Tobata one cylinder, 14 HP tractor with a heavy flywheel that vibrates so bad that your hands go to sleep driving it. I blame it on being only one cylinder? It reminds me of an old old B John Deere. There is just nothing that smoothes an engine out like having lots of cylinders. Gerald [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5329|5237|2004-09-06 15:44:14|Courtney Thomas|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|What is/are the motive(s) for this please ? Thank you. David K McComber wrote: > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5330|5237|2004-09-06 16:42:32|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gerald, do you know the weight of a vw. 1.9 > H. Henri I didn't find the engine weight. I am sure it is available in this darn computer but don't know for sure where. Even after my open heart surgery I can lift the engine off the ground so I would guess less than 200 pounds? Here is a site with some pictures of a marine engine ready to go: http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_marine_picture Gerald| 5331|5237|2004-09-06 16:55:52|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|The reason the crank did not break was because you were not making 85 horsepower. The Norton that went around the Isle of Man in 1971 was a lot different than the one you or I owned. It quit by the way on top of the mountain, I have a photo of it. John Player spent a lot of $$ getting those engines to make 85 hp but at that stage they broke the crank on a regular basis. Dave Aldana rode one at the US flat tracks. My 71 Commando maxed out at about 110 to 115 on the M1 and they were supposed to go faster. My Dunstill was faster than the commando but even that was slow compared to the way it went with the same gear as the JP bikes. The isolastic mounts were heavily modified for the bikes on the track. The Dunstill was a bigger thunder chicken than the commando. There were only a view Nortons making that much power, mine was one of them, have the trophies to prove it. C R Axtell did the work for Players in California. Keep the Bonny they are a treasure. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > Sorry Michael..I have to take issue with Norton Commando 750 : I had one for years never broke the crank...... never heard of one breaking, maybe I was lucky. Lots of vibration. Sorry this is not about boats > Cheers > Henri > ps I love my Triumph 650 Bonny > | 5332|5237|2004-09-06 17:07:15|denis buggy|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|dear all the motives for wet exhausts seem to be motivated by style and lifestyle considerations which are not visible at first until you look at it from a manufacturing viewpoint , the boat must sell therefore it must look good and allow the wished for lifestyle to take place in order to hide the fog of oily smoke from the well dressed admiral who must be able to leave his motor idling for lengthy periods and then troll for fish and generally disport himself and the bikini clad twins on the stern without discomfort of noise or smell from an engine which has not been placed under load for over a week to clear it out ,you must suspend the oily particles in water which will also quieten it hugely and transport all problems through a pipe over the side . there is one major generator maker for mega yachts whose main selling point is that etiquette in the marina will not be broken by their set blowing fumes through your neighbours yacht . the price of an engine or the boat is not the first consideration. regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Courtney Thomas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust What is/are the motive(s) for this please ? Thank you. David K McComber wrote: > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5333|5237|2004-09-06 17:09:04|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|The early Japanese two cylinder four strokes were copied from the British. The 650 Kawasaki was a copy of a BSA, the Yamaha was a disaster, bad frame not so good engine. Yvon Duhammel who was a rider for the Yamaha factory was asked to also ride the 650. I remember he walked back to the pits with out the bike and was asked where the bike was. " It fell over " was his reply. He deliberately crashed the thing so he would not have to ride it in the production class. They may be balanced but there is also the problem with inertia. A ride on a BMW flat twin or even a V twin like a Moto Guzzi is real sweet compared to the regular twins. I prefer the V twin because the engine keeps hitting the ground on the BMW. If a regular twin only makes about 30 hp like the Bonny the vibration is not as noticeable. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > Michael,...the crank always balances the pistons . H. (Yamaha 650 and 750 had severe balance problems in the 70's) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 02 September, 2004 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > > The British twins were as bad as a single because both pistons went up and down together. And that is a lot of mass with nothing to balance it. Newer motors will have a counter balancer that makes life a lot better. The British new how to make good frames but the Japanese sure improved the engines. My Yanmar 15 is a bit of a pounder but it sure is reliable and is built to last a long time. > Michael > | 5334|5334|2004-09-06 18:57:46|chkgagy8|low rate? an UNDERSTATEMENT!|Can you believe I refinanced my mortage and am saving $216 a month? Check it out... http://edgelending.com/?partid=rcc2 If you dont want to be part of this group, you can leave by mailing origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com| 5335|5237|2004-09-06 19:14:13|Mark K|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|You can't balance a reciprocating mass (piston) with a rotating mass (crank counterweight). Quiz time: Given the above, explain why a 90deg twins is so smooth. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Michael,...the crank always balances the pistons . H. (Yamaha 650 and 750 had severe balance problems in the 70's) | 5336|5237|2004-09-06 20:58:59|Hall,Clarrie|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|You can partially balance the primary vibration (caused by the reciprocating mass) with an opposing imbalance in the rotating mass. Doing so introduces secondary vibrations at twice the frequency of the primary vibrations and at right angles to the primaries with amplitude being dependant on the balance factor. 90deg V engines make the primaries from one cylinder align with the secondaries of the other resulting in further cancelling of net vibrations. Clarrie Hall -----Original Message----- From: Mark K [mailto:mynode@...] Sent: Tuesday, 7 September 2004 11:14 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? You can't balance a reciprocating mass (piston) with a rotating mass (crank counterweight). Quiz time: Given the above, explain why a 90deg twins is so smooth. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Michael,...the crank always balances the pistons . H. (Yamaha 650 and 750 had severe balance problems in the 70's) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua District Council. ------------------------------------------------------------------------| 5337|5237|2004-09-06 21:04:36|Michael Casling|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|I think one reciprocating mass gets the inertia mostly cancelled by the other reciprocating mass. The weight of the pistons and rods mostly cancels the crank counterweights. The correct answer is somewhere in a long forgotten text book. Another problem with the 750 Norton engine was the piston speed, at 7500 revs the pistons were at 7600 feet per minute which was the theoretical maximum at the time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark K" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? > > You can't balance a reciprocating mass (piston) with a rotating mass > (crank counterweight). > > Quiz time: > > Given the above, explain why a 90deg twins is so smooth. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > > Michael,...the crank always balances the pistons . H. (Yamaha 650 > and 750 had severe balance problems in the 70's) > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5338|5237|2004-09-06 22:14:19|David K McComber|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|What is/are the motive(s) for this please ? Thank you. I believe that I was required along with backfire asters for carburetors on gasoline engines in the MOTORBOAT ACT: Federal law enacted originally in 1940 and subsequently amended, which covers many aspects of safety for small craft. (46 CFR 1451-1489). I can't find a copy of this document but that is what I read somewhere. I think it was to reduce the number of boat fires. There many designers that prefer dry exhaust but I know of none that wouldn't have a water-cooled manifold. One of my boats hade a 2' lagged exhaust pipe between the water-cooled exhaust manifold and the waterinjection elbow going into the water lift muffler. David McComber d.mccomber@... David K McComber wrote: > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5339|5339|2004-09-06 22:50:35|Henri Naths|Port Townsend|Hey all , I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port Townsend. Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would love to stop in next time around and check it out.. Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5340|5237|2004-09-06 23:08:07|Henri Naths|Re: What size engine for the 36 footer??|You can't balance a reciprocating mass (piston) with a rotating mass (crank counterweight). why not???????!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark K To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 06 September, 2004 5:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: What size engine for the 36 footer?? You can't balance a reciprocating mass (piston) with a rotating mass (crank counterweight). Quiz time: Given the above, explain why a 90deg twins is so smooth. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Michael,...the crank always balances the pistons . H. (Yamaha 650 and 750 had severe balance problems in the 70's) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5341|5237|2004-09-07 00:50:38|Michael Casling|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|The safety requirements for a petrol motor are and should be much more severe than a diesel. Dripping diesel does not pose the same problem as dripping gas. The 302 Ford motors sometimes had the timing chain skip which would cause the carb to back fire with a fire and or explosion possible. I have been aboard when a fire started, the mechanic and I abandoned ship, we did not wait for the big boom which fortunately did not happen. The only petrol motor I will run is a small outboard motor. I used to sell the things, I have seen the silly amounts of money spent and unfortunately a few problems. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "David K McComber" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > > What is/are the motive(s) for this please ? > > Thank you. > > I believe that I was required along with backfire asters for carburetors on > gasoline engines in the MOTORBOAT ACT: Federal law enacted originally in > 1940 and subsequently amended, which covers many aspects of safety for small > craft. (46 CFR 1451-1489). I can't find a copy of this document but that is > what I read somewhere. I think it was to reduce the number of boat fires. > > There many designers that prefer dry exhaust but I know of none that > wouldn't have a water-cooled manifold. > > One of my boats hade a 2' lagged exhaust pipe between the water-cooled > exhaust manifold and the waterinjection elbow going into the water lift > muffler. > > > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > > > David K McComber wrote: > > > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold > with > > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any > boating > > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it > is > > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@... > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1094586255/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntfp/*http:/www.n > etflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298> click here > > > > :HM/A=2319498/rand=140544127> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5342|5237|2004-09-07 05:48:40|sae140|Re: Wet or dry exhaust again|Correction - have since learned that it left the factory with a water- cooled manifold, a hand-start and a bronze carburettor with drip tray, which have been removed over it's working life. Will be retro- fitting these. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > Sorry, that is not true. I have a air cooled 13 Hp two cylinder > > Lister and it does not have a water cooled manifold. It is a marine > > engine and was sold as one. > > Likewise, the engine I've just bought is a purpose built marine 4- > cylinder water-cooled 25 HP petrol, and much to my suprise has run > for the last 30 years without a water-cooled manifold. > Attached to the cast-iron exhaust manifold is just 3" of steel pipe > which in turn is brazed to a copper exhaust pipe. > I can only suggest that a low compression marine petrol engine > generates orders of magnitude less heat than it's automobile > equivalent, which would melt this arrangement in double quick time. > (I know - 'cause I tried brazing an exhaust pipe as a kid - it fell > off after 2 mins.) Dunno about diesels. > > But - despite all this, fabricating a water-cooled manifold is top of > my 'to do' list. > > Colin | 5343|5168|2004-09-07 06:35:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a seaway. It happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely pleasant. Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important safety precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the boat. Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to something solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about sailing on a lake. This is for offshore. The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack assumed because the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog each day, and after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never will. A boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting you, the more likely that it will. Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is nothing in the life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with my wife and children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How about you Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the wife and kids along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round the buoys at KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd enjoy hearing about your sailing over a beer. The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make it offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent them from going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or two. Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It doesn't have to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go offshore. Anyone can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go cruising. My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within 1 year I was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and was cruising Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, with a family, boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how anyone can do it, on this site, and charged no fee. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter of public safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you that brought it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is open. Ask yourself this question. You discover there is an error in the calculation of the strength of the wheels on a car. They are only 1/4 the strength the manufacturer says they are. Are you required to report this? How about if you owned one of those cars, and someone else found the problem. How would you feel about that person if they didn't report the problem. Would you think they were a good person for not reporting it? Would you think they were doing you a favor by keeping it a secret? There is a legal and moral duty to report this problem, which is why, contrary to what has been published, as the person that discovered the problem I was obliged to ensure that Brent was aware of it. Michael Casling" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > Greg continues to seize on the small problems and try and scare the > bejesus out of us with tails of doom. The engine dancing around, the > fourth attempt to bring up the skeg thing since he said he would drop it. > The type of big brother regulation to satisfy this type of scare tactics > would be horrendous, likely to the point that it would be deemed to be > unsafe to go sailing off shore in a small boat. Some US designers have > stopped drawing designs for home builders based on the potential > liability. It is interesting that when we talk about very small boats we > concentrate on the ability of the sailor, as the boats get bigger some > want to concentrate on the boat. Yet the skill of the sailor in building > and then sailng is just as important. For me the fact that a boat can > survive a pounding on the beach is a bonus but not neccessarily the > primary focus, which would be the ability to sail well in heavy going > while being safe. I think the keel should be able to survive heavy > groundings. If you are on the hard anyway you can fix or replace the > rudder. If it is transom hung pull it off and put the spare on. Accidents > happen, we can not prepare for absolutely everything and big brother and > the scantlings and a core of engineers will not change that. Your attempts > to get people sailing at a reasonable cost are admirable and you have put > your words where your mouth is with an informative book. This is a hell of > a lot more than most other folks are doing. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non that > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for many > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of using > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, > not a shortcomming in the method. > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the centreline as > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times more > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it as > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, but > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on > rubber to hold the engine in place. > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been thru > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their scantlings. > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs > been thru? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both > mounts would > > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > seaway, if > > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a > 500 lb > > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has > been > > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > similar to > > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal > mounted at > > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like > the other > > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject > to > > fatigue and failure without warning. > > > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > standard is > > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when > the > > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, > they > > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings > for ABS and > > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > fatigue? Has > > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be > considered > > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > This > > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any > reason to > > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > scantlings > > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser > scantlings than is > > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to > make them > > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed > that > > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members > involved. I > > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal > fatigue > > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > > after . > > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and > always > > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > cases > > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember > your > > > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner > with > > > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember > well > > > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They > were > > > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was > that > > > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > > >> > > >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > > > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, > then > > > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time > ago > > > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > > > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, > but no > > > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which > are > > > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > > > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our > view > > > of origami is biased. > > >> > > >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think > that > > > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > > > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > > > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > > > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > > > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > > > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > > >> > > >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > > > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg > lead to > > > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it > looks > > > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > > > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > > > the skeg and rudder. > > >> > > >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > > > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > > > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > > > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > > > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, > and > > > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could > well > > > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. > Thus > > > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > > > with a girder system between. > > >> > > >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > > > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > > >> > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > >> > > >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a > small > > > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > > > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > > >> > > >> Greg Elliott > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: silascrosby > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > >> > > >> > > >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > > >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > > >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > > >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash > > >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard > of > > > is > > >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > > >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > > >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > > >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > > > number > > >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > > >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively > unscathed. > > >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > > > Suva,Fiji > > >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > > > old > > >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home > to > > > BC. > > >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > > >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > > >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere > between > > > NZ > > >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. > Ship,container > > > or > > >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > > >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > > > harbour > > >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > > >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > > > engine > > >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > > > flange. > > >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour > or > > >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > > >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > > >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > > > motoring > > >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > > > Monica). > > >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > > > hit > > >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - > missed > > > the > > >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > > >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > > >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can > tell > > > it > > >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > > > except > > >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > > >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we > hit > > > a > > >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale > > >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > > > keel > > >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch > was > > > on > > >> the floor,jam-side down. > > >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > > >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > > > others. > > >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes > is > > >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the > skipper > > >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > > > managed > > >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > > >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' > in > > >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > > > twin > > >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > > > Allison > > >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > > > were > > >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > > > at > > >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > > >> along.Excellent sailing. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >> > > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > >> ADVERTISEMENT > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > ---------- > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > >> > > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > > Service. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5344|5168|2004-09-07 06:35:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The ability to survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The Bones has wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have long lost count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double spreader, keel stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that pleasure. However, as has been said many times by others, stories of success prove nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were required in any metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami boats were originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting the bilge keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is consistent with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and found it necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list for the group all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in origami boats. As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of avoiding them. I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand the geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the method." As I recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an attachment makes it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point out where the lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and strength. Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a result of its moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its geometry. Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making the attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it stronger, which can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the forces. For this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 times stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail sooner than expected. Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, not the boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As a result, the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed construction, to select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for origami, without relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly adapted to origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how their strength compares with other metal boats. ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction result in much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done on purpose, because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much stronger than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a grounding and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as strong as other metal boats. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on our web site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot compare one drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on each drawing. From this you will see that the first example has a maximum stress of 10,500 PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - an 8 fold reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last example (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first example (frameless) before failure. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non that > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for many > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of using > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, > not a shortcomming in the method. > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the centreline as > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times more > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it as > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, but > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on > rubber to hold the engine in place. > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been thru > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their scantlings. > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs > been thru? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both > mounts would >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > seaway, if >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a > 500 lb >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. >> >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has > been >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > similar to >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal > mounted at >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like > the other >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject > to >> fatigue and failure without warning. >> >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > standard is >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when > the >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, > they >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings > for ABS and >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. >> >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > fatigue? Has >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be > considered >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > This >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any > reason to >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > scantlings >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser > scantlings than is >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to > make them >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed > that >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members > involved. I >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal > fatigue >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly >> > after . >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and > always >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > cases >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. >> > Brent Swain >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember > your >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner > with >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember > well >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They > were >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was > that >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. >> >> >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, > then >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time > ago >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, > but no >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which > are >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our > view >> > of origami is biased. >> >> >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think > that >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. >> >> >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg > lead to >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it > looks >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on >> > the skeg and rudder. >> >> >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, > and >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could > well >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. > Thus >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, >> > with a girder system between. >> >> >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a > small >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: silascrosby >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re-hash >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard > of >> > is >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a >> > number >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively > unscathed. >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in >> > Suva,Fiji >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month >> > old >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home > to >> > BC. >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere > between >> > NZ >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. > Ship,container >> > or >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same >> > harbour >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the >> > engine >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded >> > flange. >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour > or >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was >> > motoring >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and >> > Monica). >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and >> > hit >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - > missed >> > the >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can > tell >> > it >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything >> > except >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we > hit >> > a >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large -scale >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard >> > keel >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch > was >> > on >> >> the floor,jam-side down. >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or >> > others. >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes > is >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the > skipper >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he >> > managed >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' > in >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami >> > twin >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and >> > Allison >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We >> > were >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas >> > at >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping >> >> along.Excellent sailing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --- >> > ---------- >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of >> > Service. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 5345|5237|2004-09-07 09:16:33|Robert Gainer|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). They break it down into passenger and non-passenger boats. In each group gas and diesel are subject to different regulations. In the section about diesel engines on non-passenger boats I don't see any thing about any water-cooling required. In fact they make the specific statement that an air-cooled diesel is permitted. There is NO REQUIREMENT FOR WATER COOLED MANAFOLDS. Unlike gas engines, which appear to require water-cooling with the exception of deck-mounted auxiliary units. Gas engines MUST be water cooled to meet the regulation on passenger boats caring more then 12 passengers for hire. Commercial boats less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers for hire may elect to use the ABYC standards and ignore this regulation altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. There is a difference in the requirements between a private, commercial boat not carrying paying passengers and a boat caring paying passengers. Unless I am misreading this or it has been superseded by new regulations it says no WATER COOLED manifolds are necessary on a diesel for private use. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963| 5346|5237|2004-09-07 23:58:15|kendall|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > The safety requirements for a petrol motor are and should be much more > severe than a diesel. Dripping diesel does not pose the same problem as > dripping gas. The 302 Ford motors sometimes had the timing chain skip which > would cause the carb to back fire with a fire and or explosion possible. I > have been aboard when a fire started, the mechanic and I abandoned ship, we > did not wait for the big boom which fortunately did not happen. The only > petrol motor I will run is a small outboard motor. I used to sell the > things, I have seen the silly amounts of money spent and unfortunately a few > problems. Michael If a timing chain slips, it only slips for one reason, lack of maintenance, I work on fords for a living, marine and automotive, and I have to say that if someone slacks off on the maintenance on the engine, especially in a power boat, where it is the heart and soul of the boat, then there are a number of other things they are letting go too, fuel lines, and tanks. I've seen too many boats, cars too, where 'routine' maintenance meant adding oil when it starts to clatter, also seen a lot of otherwise spotless boats where the entire fuel system was rotted right out (how many times have you heard "don't fill it over halfway"?) that's where most of the gas is bad belief comes from. true, diesel is safer from the leakage/vapor standpoint, but a well maintained gasoline engine is just as safe as a diesel, and can be as economical to run, and over the life of the boat can be as cost efficient as a diesel ken| 5347|5168|2004-09-08 00:28:49|troller10|Island Breeze|I read the metal failure posts, (after being away for quite some time), and noticed mention of Jack and Monica from the Island Breeze. I met Jack in Kauai as I was heading out and he was coming back from the circumnavigation. I think it was June 1993. I was singlehanding a 48 ft Crocker ketch "Fanfare", but was totally impressed with the Folded Steel boat, Island Breeze. Good people. Oh yea if you see Jack tell I still intend to stop by to pick up the Captain Cook book they borrowed. :-) Just my two cents. Happy sailing. Brien Hamilton| 5348|5278|2004-09-08 10:05:12|Henri Naths|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire penetrates further in all positions. right on Terry Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: T.H. & V.D. Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 05 September, 2004 2:32 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds The Miller 175 is an "honest" machine. It will deliver the goods if used correctly on a power supply not restricted by a long extension lead. There may be some heavy section transition welds which need careful planning in light of the position of these welds. Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire penetrates further in all positions. The above relates to the effective or correct welding technique for the sections being joined. It comes down to "Horses for courses". Terry -----Original Message----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL [mailto:rockrothwell@...] Sent: Friday, 3 September 2004 5:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cc: rockrothwell@... Subject: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds Gary & Alex, No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 way through building my boat! at the same time.....oh Shit! Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as it's a really sweet little unit The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller states very cleary in their specs that the unit will do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of the time. For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the hull on all welds. Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material after he finnished his hull so I have the full range of material sizes and will do lost of testing & busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds you mentioned. At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) another glass boat. Thanks Lads, Shane Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 From: "Gary H. Lucas" Subject: Re: Welder Size Shane, At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people off, I'll repeat this once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed machine then it is too small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be welding with 0.045" welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The smaller wire can not carry enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The miller 175 has another problem even if it can put out enough current to use the 0,045" wire. It can't put out enough current at the start, when the current goes WAY up, so it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding involves lots of skip welding this is very bad. I know about this because I used to get thousands of parts hot dipped galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding welds with poor penetration. After you throw away several thousand parts because they fall apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of the larger wire. Note that I am not saying the welder can't make perfectly good welds in the hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. What I am saying is that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a high percentage of bad parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts in each batch to virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. One vendor thanked me. Not because he produced better welds, but because once his guys stopped bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with they realized the deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went lots quicker. That saved them and me money. Another important point is that since are welding faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is less, and so is the distortion you get. In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than stick welders. A small MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a small stick welder would not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my advice, get a bigger machine and use a bigger wire. Gary H. Lucas Message: 11 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 From: "Alex" Subject: AC stick I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat into it all and ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some spots such as the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 inch keel sides that took all the heat we could give it and I can't see a smaller MiG being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid shaft leading edge of the keel because we noted that some of our initial tack welds during assembly were not strong enough due to heat-sucking by that big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the torch before welding there was nothing which could budge those welds. But even with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat and material to make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little overboard and used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the critical parts of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, the cheapest Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, though I have borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, according to my brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I hand the job over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So strength isn't an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, though only with certain rods. Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has "raised" me on AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn for something I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds 7024 beautifully and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls off of on its own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets down into the host steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a little more finesse to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt about the strength being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare you off, there is no mystery to it. Alex ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5349|5349|2004-09-08 14:05:35|fenixrises|Hurricane Holiday|Hi all, Just found this group prior to the start of Frances. I have spent many pleasurable hours scanning through the past few years of posts, except when the power flicked off and on a few times. Many times the discussions reminded me of the personality dynamics of Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and "Bones" McCoy. Having spent many years building sailboats for others and a couple for myself I only wish that the internet and the origami method had been more widly known and developed 20+ years ago. It would have changed my boatbuilding very much. If I remember correctly Grahame Shannon and Bruce Roberts were very closely tied when in Oz and after first coming to the USA. I met them both at BR's office in Newport Beach, Ca. It seems that even at that time the beginings for origami were being investigated. I remember BR offering plans for metal boats built over temporary wooden frames with only longitudinal stringers. Of course building the wooden framework is a bunch of work and not needed with origami. A friend of mine built an origami steel 50' chine boat back in the 80's. I do not remember the designers name but I think he was also located in SoCal somewhere. It was a beautiful boat built with 5 plates. One plate for the bottom which ended before the stem, two turn of the bilge plates and two topside plates. The chine only showed for about the last 6-8 feet going back to the transom. My last boat was about the same size as Brent's 31. I also sailed from American Samoa back to the west coast. From Hilo to SoCal in 23 days. Much of it on the wind with a junk rig. Papeete to Hilo in 22 days about half the time with wind forward of the beam. The bitch was American Samoa to Bora Bora. 1100 miles dead to windward in typical 20 knot trades with 6-8 foot seas. That took 25 days with a stop at Suvarov atoll. There is a difference between reaching a destination on the wind and reaching a destination dead to windward. Sailing dead to windward in the trades for any distance in a small boat is no fun! For many years I was an advocate of the KISS priciple for sailboats. My boat had no head(bucket only), limited electric and a small Yanmar diesel. It was plain but made with good quality stuff bought at low prices because of my many contacts in the boating community. i.e. my anchors cost $1 / lb. My stantions (1" double wall SS) and bases custom built were $35 each. I sold the boat years ago but still think about sailing off into the sunset. I see there is a BS 36 for sail in the links page...hmmmm possibilities there ;)| 5350|5168|2004-09-08 16:00:57|brentswain38|Re: Island Breeze|Jack and Monica will be leaving Frisco Bay area this fall in their new origami twin keeler "Bella Via " bound for Mexico. They are currently in BC escapeing the heat of California. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > I read the metal failure posts, (after being away for quite some > time), and noticed mention of Jack and Monica from the Island Breeze. > > I met Jack in Kauai as I was heading out and he was coming > back from the circumnavigation. I think it was June 1993. I was > singlehanding a 48 ft Crocker ketch "Fanfare", but was totally > impressed with the Folded Steel boat, Island Breeze. > > Good people. > > Oh yea if you see Jack tell I still intend to stop by to pick up the > Captain Cook book they borrowed. :-) > > Just my two cents. Happy sailing. > > Brien Hamilton | 5351|5351|2004-09-08 19:13:49|pascalibook|BS 26 Info ???|Dear Mister Swain , Your book arrived today and to be honnest I was a bit surprised with the BS 26 information , you advised to buy the book for. May I refer to my mail from 1 Augustus to the Canadian builder that offers that hull for sale and still does today : http://www.boatbuilding.ws/Pricing.htm How many BS 26 are there being build or where build today ? With some extras the bill sure will be higher than 50000 $ does that company sells finished ( I mean without the accomodation ) hulls to the amateur furniture builder ? What must an interested customer do to obtain more info than available on page 114 of your book , especialy if he wants to place an order ? What are the salesconditions and delivery terms ? Is there any garantee on the work ?? On there website I see the Reward section ; I would consider it a real Reward to even see a decent presentation design , as usual in any boattransaction ? Thanks in advance for your time > Date:  Sun Aug 1, 2004  11:55 pm > Subject:  Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' > Plan > > > ADVERTISEMENTPascale > The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . It's a > simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft with the > single keeler. Perhaps It's time I got Alex to scan in the sailplans > of all my boats on this website.The specs are all given in the > back > of my book. If you have any other questions you can email me at > brentswain38@y... > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" > > wrote: > > Hi All , I need some help or directions . > > The messages I send keep coming back : > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > delete your own text from the message returned below. > > > > The Postfix program > > > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > > said: 553 5.3.0 > > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > > to RCPT TO > > command) > > > > Van: Pascale > > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > > Aan: > > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > > > Dear Sir , > > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > > with or without a pilothouse. > > Could you give me directions how to see the > > presentation or general plan > > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > > Thanks in advance . | 5352|5278|2004-09-08 20:12:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|Okay, I won't argue it further. I got the same arguments from the same welders whose work I had to toss. When my business depended on thousands of sound welds because everything we built hung from the ceiling I just went with what worked RELIABLY. Of course this about boats, and you can swim. I couldn't fly. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds > Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater > than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). > Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire > penetrates further in all positions. > > > right on Terry > Henri. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: T.H. & V.D. Cain > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 05 September, 2004 2:32 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds > > > The Miller 175 is an "honest" machine. It will deliver the goods if used > correctly on a power supply not restricted by a long extension lead. > There may be some heavy section transition welds which need careful planning > in light of the position of these welds. > Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater > than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). > Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire > penetrates further in all positions. > The above relates to the effective or correct welding technique for the > sections being joined. > It comes down to "Horses for courses". > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL [mailto:rockrothwell@...] > Sent: Friday, 3 September 2004 5:58 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: rockrothwell@... > Subject: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds > > > Gary & Alex, > > No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought > the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 > way through building my boat! > > at the same time.....oh Shit! > > Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated > before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as > it's a really sweet little unit > > The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller > states very cleary in their specs that the unit will > do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the > machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn > through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' > or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding > would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be > running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of > the time. > > For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I > was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the > machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger > lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up > (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot > more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 > > One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless > wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the > hull on all welds. > > Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff > indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the > machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I > figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside > from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I > will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line > as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. > > Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material > after he finnished his hull so I have the full range > of material sizes and will do lost of testing & > busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort > of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds > you mentioned. > > At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking > about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) > another glass boat. > > Thanks Lads, > Shane > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > Subject: Re: Welder Size > > Shane, > At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people > off, I'll repeat > this > once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed > machine then it is > too > small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be > welding with > 0.045" > welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The > smaller wire can not > carry > enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The > miller 175 has > another > problem even if it can put out enough current to use > the 0,045" wire. > It > can't put out enough current at the start, when the > current goes WAY > up, so > it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding > involves lots of > skip > welding this is very bad. > > I know about this because I used to get thousands of > parts hot dipped > galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding > welds with poor > penetration. After you throw away several thousand > parts because they > fall > apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of > the larger wire. > > Note that I am not saying the welder can't make > perfectly good welds in > the > hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. > What I am saying > is > that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a > high percentage > of bad > parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts > in each batch to > virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. > One vendor > thanked > me. Not because he produced better welds, but because > once his guys > stopped > bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with > they realized the > deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went > lots quicker. That > saved them and me money. Another important point is > that since are > welding > faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is > less, and so is > the > distortion you get. > > In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than > stick welders. A > small > MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a > small stick welder > would > not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my > advice, get a > bigger > machine and use a bigger wire. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 > From: "Alex" > Subject: AC stick > > I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat > into it all and > ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some > spots such as > the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 > inch keel sides > that took all the heat we could give it and I can't > see a smaller MiG > being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid > shaft leading > edge of the keel because we noted that some of our > initial tack welds > during assembly were not strong enough due to > heat-sucking by that > big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the > torch before > welding there was nothing which could budge those > welds. But even > with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat > and material to > make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little > overboard and > used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the > critical parts > of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, > the cheapest > Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, > though I have > borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, > according to my > brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I > hand the job > over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So > strength isn't > an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, > though only with > certain rods. > > Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has > "raised" me on > AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn > for something > I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds > 7024 beautifully > and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls > off of on its > own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets > down into the host > steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a > little more finesse > to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt > about the strength > being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare > you off, there > is no mystery to it. > > Alex > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Get unlimited calls to > > U.S./Canada > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5353|5353|2004-09-08 22:57:43|kingsknight4life|Would like to visit other 36 footers|Hi. My girlfriend and I are in the process of building a 36 ft. twinkeel, Swain boat. We are trying to decide on and get ideas for the interior/layout of our boat. If there is anyone on the Island who'd like to show off their boat and probably answer lots of questions from newbies, we'd REALLY appreciate it. BTW we live in the Duncan area but can travel almost anywhere. Thanks Rowland (and Bev)| 5354|5278|2004-09-09 00:11:04|Henri Naths|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|Gary, We use to do x-ray quality welds on pressure vessels with .035 wire,... I couldn't run fast enough if the thing blew up.... maybe you should of hired an engineered co.and cwb certified welders that would of saved you a lot of money, because you know what ?... it guaranteed ! Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 08 September, 2004 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds Okay, I won't argue it further. I got the same arguments from the same welders whose work I had to toss. When my business depended on thousands of sound welds because everything we built hung from the ceiling I just went with what worked RELIABLY. Of course this about boats, and you can swim. I couldn't fly. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds > Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater > than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). > Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire > penetrates further in all positions. > > > right on Terry > Henri. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: T.H. & V.D. Cain > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 05 September, 2004 2:32 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds > > > The Miller 175 is an "honest" machine. It will deliver the goods if used > correctly on a power supply not restricted by a long extension lead. > There may be some heavy section transition welds which need careful planning > in light of the position of these welds. > Always remember that the current density on a 0.035" solid wire is greater > than on a 0.045" solid wire for the same current (wire feed / speed). > Radiographic examination of the two cases shows clearly that the 0.035" wire > penetrates further in all positions. > The above relates to the effective or correct welding technique for the > sections being joined. > It comes down to "Horses for courses". > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL [mailto:rockrothwell@...] > Sent: Friday, 3 September 2004 5:58 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Cc: rockrothwell@... > Subject: [origamiboats] Mig Welders & strength of welds > > > Gary & Alex, > > No gentlemen you are not pissing me off! If i bought > the wrong machine I'd rather know aobt it now than 1/2 > way through building my boat! > > at the same time.....oh Shit! > > Guys, your further comments would be much appreicated > before I take the losss on this machine & flog it as > it's a really sweet little unit > > The Miller 175 I have is a wire feed unit. Miller > states very cleary in their specs that the unit will > do up to 1/4" material and as the settings of the > machine are set to the thinner material (or you burn > through) I figured that as the hull plating on a 36' > or a 40' is 3/16" the vast majority of the welding > would involve welding 3/16" material. Therefore I'd be > running the machine at 75% for the vast majority of > the time. > > For another $350 I could have got a miller 200 but I > was thinking that I am going to have to "fly" the > machine up & around & all over the hull as the stinger > lead is only 10' long. With the next size machine up > (a 200A unit) that would be awkward as it weighs a lot > more (about 200+ lbs vs 80lbs for the miller 175 > > One thing in favor of the machine (if it is a gutless > wonder) is that I will be welding both sides of the > hull on all welds. > > Re: Welding on the keel shoe plates. Yes, thick stuff > indeed! have been told that this is do-able with the > machine if you pre-heat it 'enuf'. from the begining I > figured 'ya right, in theory... As a result, aside > from getting Brent to help me pull the hull together I > will be asking him to drop in & help me down the line > as well, very specifically for this heavier stuff. > > Gord Schnell gave me a bunch of the scrap material > after he finnished his hull so I have the full range > of material sizes and will do lost of testing & > busting apart on a hydraulic press as this as it sort > of gives the creeps about this cold start on the welds > you mentioned. > > At the same time I'm glad it's steel we're talking > about & not vegitable matter or (christ forbid) > another glass boat. > > Thanks Lads, > Shane > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:05:47 -0400 > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > Subject: Re: Welder Size > > Shane, > At the risk of beating an old drum and pissing people > off, I'll repeat > this > once more. If your Miller 175 is a MIG wire feed > machine then it is > too > small for welding a boat hull! You REALLY want to be > welding with > 0.045" > welding wire, and not 0.035" welding wire. The > smaller wire can not > carry > enough welding current to ensure RELIABLE welds. The > miller 175 has > another > problem even if it can put out enough current to use > the 0,045" wire. > It > can't put out enough current at the start, when the > current goes WAY > up, so > it tends to produce a cold start. Since boat welding > involves lots of > skip > welding this is very bad. > > I know about this because I used to get thousands of > parts hot dipped > galvanized. Galvanizing is really good at finding > welds with poor > penetration. After you throw away several thousand > parts because they > fall > apart you start to get smart and insist on the use of > the larger wire. > > Note that I am not saying the welder can't make > perfectly good welds in > the > hands of an expert welder under the right conditions. > What I am saying > is > that I have had lots of so called 'experts' send me a > high percentage > of bad > parts. In each case I reduced the number of bad parts > in each batch to > virtually 0 simply by insisting they use 0.045" wire. > One vendor > thanked > me. Not because he produced better welds, but because > once his guys > stopped > bitching about the fact it was harder to weld with > they realized the > deposition rate was far higher, and the welding went > lots quicker. That > saved them and me money. Another important point is > that since are > welding > faster the TOTAL amount of heat put into the metal is > less, and so is > the > distortion you get. > > In conclusion: MIG welders are very different than > stick welders. A > small > MIG welder often produces very poor welds where a > small stick welder > would > not. So if you are not a true expert welder, take my > advice, get a > bigger > machine and use a bigger wire. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 06:59:32 -0000 > From: "Alex" > Subject: AC stick > > I agree with what Gary said about getting the heat > into it all and > ensuring maximum strength of the weld. There are some > spots such as > the 1/2 plate on the keel bottoms being welded to 1/4 > inch keel sides > that took all the heat we could give it and I can't > see a smaller MiG > being up to the job. We also had to pre-heat the solid > shaft leading > edge of the keel because we noted that some of our > initial tack welds > during assembly were not strong enough due to > heat-sucking by that > big chunk of steel. Once we heated it up with the > torch before > welding there was nothing which could budge those > welds. But even > with line heating, could a small Mig dump enough heat > and material to > make a good weld in that spot? We also went a little > overboard and > used 8011 DC with my landlord's DC welder for all the > critical parts > of the keel. The rest of the boat has been AC stick, > the cheapest > Lincoln buzzbox (225) on the market ($300 CDN or so, > though I have > borrowed this one), and those welds are very strong, > according to my > brutal bench tests. When I want good looking welds, I > hand the job > over to my buddy-landlord-welder Jim, or to Brent. So > strength isn't > an issue even when I weld, but beauty sometimes is, > though only with > certain rods. > > Funny, I never welded before this, and since Brent has > "raised" me on > AC stick, it just seems normal to me and I don't yearn > for something > I've never had! Even in my newbie hands the AC welds > 7024 beautifully > and leaves a nice smooth bead that the slag just curls > off of on its > own most times. And hot, yes that weld really gets > down into the host > steel and gets a bite on it. Other rods require a > little more finesse > to look pretty, but it comes in time, but no doubt > about the strength > being there. If you're on a budget don't let AC scare > you off, there > is no mystery to it. > > Alex > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Get unlimited calls to > > U.S./Canada > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5355|5168|2004-09-09 01:01:15|Michael Casling|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many seemingly unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like cut and paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your offshore experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the issue, it is more about how you present your views. Others on this board also have offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed the ocean but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the salt water puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can however leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at least once a week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much longer. As to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat such as a dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. Others may choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with different priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit more credit to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life does not appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of writing makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or support a point of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by David Lewis and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I have surfed the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open Grand Prix level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I would say that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous messages below. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a seaway. It > happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely pleasant. > Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important safety > precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the boat. > Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to something > solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about sailing on a > lake. This is for offshore. > > The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack assumed because > the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog each day, and > after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never will. A > boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting you, the more > likely that it will. > > Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is nothing in the > life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with my wife and > children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How about you > Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the wife and kids > along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round the buoys at > KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd enjoy hearing > about your sailing over a beer. > > The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make it > offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent them from > going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or two. > Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It doesn't have > to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go offshore. Anyone > can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go cruising. > My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within 1 year I > was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and was cruising > Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, with a family, > boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how anyone can do > it, on this site, and charged no fee. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter of public > safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you that brought > it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is open. | 5356|5278|2004-09-09 06:53:42|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|I for one am convinced that .035 will provide a good strong weld. I welded my race car frames with it and am still here to tell the story. At Cat we welded the tractor cabs with .035 and they take a fair beating on a day to day basis. However, I am wondering about the pressure vessel welds? I once welded on the hydraulic tube line. It has been a long time but it seems like at pressures over 3,000 PSI it was indicated on the print that we use stick only. As I recall the claim was that under high pressure the oil would leak right thru the weld if welded with MIG. At the time I thought it was about the silliest thing I had heard of and recall having the tester try some of my MIG welds at pressures far over 3,000 and they didn't leak. For sure there had been a problem at some point in time for the engineering department to indicate such a thing on a blue print. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gary, > We use to do x-ray quality welds on pressure vessels with .035 wire,... I couldn't run fast enough if the thing blew up.... maybe you should of hired an engineered co.and cwb certified welders that would of saved you a lot of money, because you know what ?... it guaranteed ! > Henri | 5357|5168|2004-09-09 07:59:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Greg, Regarding your FEA plot: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed them your plot, their comments were as follows: 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build it? 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless as an aid to design. 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent stress. 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to know that the analysis was rubbish. 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack starting and propagating. My comments are: Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used inappropriately. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted| 5358|657|2004-09-09 11:12:32|fenixrises|Engines|Hi all, For those of you looking for an engine for your boat or wanting to have your current engine rebuilt you might consider this option. See if there is any kind of diesel engine course available at a community college near you. Often they look for diesel engines that need to be rebuilt to use as instructional examples. You may be able to have the engine rebuilt for only the cost of the parts. Often the course instructor is able to obtain these parts at wholesale because of the school connection. Sometimes engines are donated to the school but just sit waiting for the parts, therefore a rebuilt engine can be had for just the cost of the new parts. My friend who built the 50' boat in SoCal was just such an instructor at Golden West Community College in Huntington Beach, Ca. He was also a full time marine diesel mechanic with his own business. He and his class rebuilt many engines in this fashion. I do not know if he is still teaching there as Calif's recent finacial mess has caused many programs to be eliminated. Another friend of mine took a series of these courses to learn more about diesel engines, not a bad idea in itself. He was also able to bring in an older engine that needed to be rebuilt and participate in the process himself. Happy sails to you, Fred| 5359|5278|2004-09-09 11:57:27|Henri Naths|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|Hi Gerald, I, too have seen a lot of "silly" things come from engineered drawing. They take a "problem" and run with it. Years ago people were, and they still are, spooked about mig. I've welded a lot of hydraulic components with mig (.035 wire) and as you know some systems work at 4500 psi and the engineering stats have to be aprox 5 times the working pressure. I have to admit it was not my preferred choice of welding procedures. I'm sure the engineers and metallurgist have stress analysis tables they work from. It is intresting to note here that some pipeline co. just hand you the rods and it's a co. secret to what they are comprised of. I recently had a chance to see a propane tank that had been in a fire and had blown up. The tank was aprox 35 imp gallon and it was laying there like a crumpled flat piece of metal with just a slight curve to it. Internal forces were obviously greater than the tensile strength of the 3/16 parent metal. That is where the failure was and not the weld. Some could correct me if I'm wrong but I believe those to be mig welded . Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 09 September, 2004 4:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds I for one am convinced that .035 will provide a good strong weld. I welded my race car frames with it and am still here to tell the story. At Cat we welded the tractor cabs with .035 and they take a fair beating on a day to day basis. However, I am wondering about the pressure vessel welds? I once welded on the hydraulic tube line. It has been a long time but it seems like at pressures over 3,000 PSI it was indicated on the print that we use stick only. As I recall the claim was that under high pressure the oil would leak right thru the weld if welded with MIG. At the time I thought it was about the silliest thing I had heard of and recall having the tester try some of my MIG welds at pressures far over 3,000 and they didn't leak. For sure there had been a problem at some point in time for the engineering department to indicate such a thing on a blue print. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gary, > We use to do x-ray quality welds on pressure vessels with .035 wire,... I couldn't run fast enough if the thing blew up.... maybe you should of hired an engineered co.and cwb certified welders that would of saved you a lot of money, because you know what ?... it guaranteed ! > Henri To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5360|5339|2004-09-09 16:53:48|brentswain38|Re: Port Townsend|Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a bone doctor ,was building one there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Hey all , > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port Townsend. Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would love to stop in next time around and check it out.. > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5361|5237|2004-09-09 16:56:03|brentswain38|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|My last engine was an aircooled diesel with a dry manifold. It was hot, but worked wel for 12 years. My current engine is watercooled with a watercooled manifold and dry exhuast' It works well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > > > > > > > > > What is/are the motive(s) for this please ? > > Thank you. > > I believe that I was required along with backfire asters for carburetors on > gasoline engines in the MOTORBOAT ACT: Federal law enacted originally in > 1940 and subsequently amended, which covers many aspects of safety for small > craft. (46 CFR 1451-1489). I can't find a copy of this document but that is > what I read somewhere. I think it was to reduce the number of boat fires. > > There many designers that prefer dry exhaust but I know of none that > wouldn't have a water-cooled manifold. > > One of my boats hade a 2' lagged exhaust pipe between the water- cooled > exhaust manifold and the waterinjection elbow going into the water lift > muffler. > > > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > David K McComber wrote: > > > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold > with > > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any > boating > > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it > is > > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1094586255/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntfp/*http: /www.n > etflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298> click here > > > > :HM/A=2319498/rand=140544127> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5362|5168|2004-09-09 17:08:03|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|The French have built massive bureacracies for people sailing . It takes a long time to get a license to go 20 miles offshore, then you need another one to go a bit further off shore, etc etc.They require several fully welded metal bulkheads in their boats , even tho there is very little chance of ever punching a hole in one. The fact that many of their "Approved" boats capsize when they pass 120 degrees and stay capsized doesn't concern the bureaucrats. The term " Building of personal empires by bureaucrats" describes the situation well. A French friend took his diving course in Kerguelen . It took him a couple of weeks. When he got back to France he met a woman there who had been taking the necessary course for two years and had spent over $2,000 yet still wasn't qualified to go diving. Lets not beg for the same kind of bureaucratic intrusion into our lives here.Those who prefer it can simply move to France and leave Canada the paradise that it is( so far). Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a seaway. It > happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely pleasant. > Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important safety > precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the boat. > Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to something > solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about sailing on a > lake. This is for offshore. > > The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack assumed because > the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog each day, and > after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never will. A > boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting you, the more > likely that it will. > > Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is nothing in the > life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with my wife and > children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How about you > Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the wife and kids > along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round the buoys at > KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd enjoy hearing > about your sailing over a beer. > > The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make it > offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent them from > going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or two. > Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It doesn't have > to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go offshore. Anyone > can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go cruising. > My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within 1 year I > was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and was cruising > Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, with a family, > boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how anyone can do > it, on this site, and charged no fee. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter of public > safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you that brought > it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is open. > > Ask yourself this question. You discover there is an error in the > calculation of the strength of the wheels on a car. They are only 1/4 the > strength the manufacturer says they are. Are you required to report this? > > How about if you owned one of those cars, and someone else found the > problem. How would you feel about that person if they didn't report the > problem. Would you think they were a good person for not reporting it? > Would you think they were doing you a favor by keeping it a secret? > > There is a legal and moral duty to report this problem, which is why, > contrary to what has been published, as the person that discovered the > problem I was obliged to ensure that Brent was aware of it. > > > Michael Casling" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:17 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > Greg continues to seize on the small problems and try and scare the > > bejesus out of us with tails of doom. The engine dancing around, the > > fourth attempt to bring up the skeg thing since he said he would drop it. > > The type of big brother regulation to satisfy this type of scare tactics > > would be horrendous, likely to the point that it would be deemed to be > > unsafe to go sailing off shore in a small boat. Some US designers have > > stopped drawing designs for home builders based on the potential > > liability. It is interesting that when we talk about very small boats we > > concentrate on the ability of the sailor, as the boats get bigger some > > want to concentrate on the boat. Yet the skill of the sailor in building > > and then sailng is just as important. For me the fact that a boat can > > survive a pounding on the beach is a bonus but not neccessarily the > > primary focus, which would be the ability to sail well in heavy going > > while being safe. I think the keel should be able to survive heavy > > groundings. If you are on the hard anyway you can fix or replace the > > rudder. If it is transom hung pull it off and put the spare on. Accidents > > happen, we can not prepare for absolutely everything and big brother and > > the scantlings and a core of engineers will not change that. Your attempts > > to get people sailing at a reasonable cost are admirable and you have put > > your words where your mouth is with an informative book. This is a hell of > > a lot more than most other folks are doing. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional > > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, > > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non that > > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of > > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for many > > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of using > > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, > > not a shortcomming in the method. > > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand > > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal > > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the centreline as > > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times more > > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it as > > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, but > > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. > > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all > > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, > > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on > > rubber to hold the engine in place. > > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been thru > > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their scantlings. > > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs > > been thru? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both > > mounts would > > > have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > > seaway, if > > > one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a > > 500 lb > > > engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > > > > > > The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has > > been > > > posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > > similar to > > > the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal > > mounted at > > > near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like > > the other > > > attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject > > to > > > fatigue and failure without warning. > > > > > > The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > > standard is > > > nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when > > the > > > boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, > > they > > > routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings > > for ABS and > > > similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > > > > > > Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > > fatigue? Has > > > the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be > > considered > > > proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > > This > > > makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any > > reason to > > > build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > > scantlings > > > for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser > > scantlings than is > > > standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to > > make them > > > as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > > > > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed > > that > > > > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > > > > either side of the centreline with no transverse members > > involved. I > > > > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal > > fatigue > > > > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > > > > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > > > > after . > > > > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > > > > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and > > always > > > > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > > cases > > > > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > > > > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > > > > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember > > your > > > > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner > > with > > > > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember > > well > > > > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They > > were > > > > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was > > that > > > > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > > > >> > > > >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > > > > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, > > then > > > > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time > > ago > > > > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > > > > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, > > but no > > > > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which > > are > > > > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > > > > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our > > view > > > > of origami is biased. > > > >> > > > >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think > > that > > > > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > > > > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > > > > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > > > > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > > > > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > > > > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > > > >> > > > >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > > > > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg > > lead to > > > > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it > > looks > > > > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > > > > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > > > > the skeg and rudder. > > > >> > > > >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > > > > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > > > > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > > > > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > > > > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, > > and > > > > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could > > well > > > > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. > > Thus > > > > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > > > > with a girder system between. > > > >> > > > >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > > > > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > > > >> > > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > > >> > > > >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a > > small > > > > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > > > > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > > > >> > > > >> Greg Elliott > > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > > > >> > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> From: silascrosby > > > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > > > >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > > > >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > > > >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- hash > > > >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard > > of > > > > is > > > >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > > > >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > > > >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > > > >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > > > > number > > > >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > > > >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively > > unscathed. > > > >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > > > > Suva,Fiji > > > >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > > > > old > > > >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home > > to > > > > BC. > > > >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > > > >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > > > >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere > > between > > > > NZ > > > >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. > > Ship,container > > > > or > > > >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > > > >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > > > > harbour > > > >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > > > >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > > > > engine > > > >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > > > > flange. > > > >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour > > or > > > >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > > > >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > > > >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > > > > motoring > > > >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > > > > Monica). > > > >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > > > > hit > > > >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - > > missed > > > > the > > > >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > > > >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > > > >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can > > tell > > > > it > > > >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > > > > except > > > >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > > > >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we > > hit > > > > a > > > >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large - scale > > > >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > > > > keel > > > >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch > > was > > > > on > > > >> the floor,jam-side down. > > > >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > > > >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > > > > others. > > > >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes > > is > > > >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the > > skipper > > > >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > > > > managed > > > >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > > > >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' > > in > > > >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > > > > twin > > > >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > > > > Allison > > > >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > > > > were > > > >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > > > > at > > > >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > > > >> along.Excellent sailing. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >> ADVERTISEMENT > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----- > > --- > > > > ---------- > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > >> > > > >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > > > > Service. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5363|5237|2004-09-09 17:17:18|brentswain38|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|West marine gadget sales is a sucker's game . What they sell and what is useful are completely different things. I advise low income clients who don't want to spend their cruising funds and time paying for trinkets and having to work and put off cruising , to stay well away from west marine and trinket peddling con artists like them for as long as possible.You can get 90% of what you need to go cruising in industrial supplies and second hand marine places. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear all the motives for wet exhausts seem to be motivated by style and lifestyle considerations which are not visible at first until you look at it from a manufacturing viewpoint , > the boat must sell therefore it must look good and allow the wished for lifestyle to take place > in order to hide the fog of oily smoke from the well dressed admiral who must be able to leave his motor idling for lengthy periods and then troll for fish and generally disport himself and the bikini clad twins on the stern without discomfort of noise or smell from an engine which has not been placed under load for over a week to clear it out ,you must suspend the oily particles in water which will also quieten it hugely and transport all problems through a pipe over the side . > there is one major generator maker for mega yachts whose main selling point is that etiquette in the marina will not be broken by their set blowing fumes through your neighbours yacht . > the price of an engine or the boat is not the first consideration. > regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Courtney Thomas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:57 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > > What is/are the motive(s) for this please ? > > Thank you. > > David K McComber wrote: > > > Wet or dry exhaust. The exhaust manifold is water cooled. The first thing > > that is done to marineize an engine is to replace the exhaust manifold with > > one that has a water-jacket. If you don't think so just look in any boating > > equipment catalog such as westmarine or boat US. I found 4 pages of water > > cooled exhaust manifolds in the current boat US catalog. > > > > If you can't find or make a water-cooled manifold for an engine, then it is > > really not suitable to be used in an enclosed place such as a sailboat. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5364|5168|2004-09-09 17:22:48|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|The need to carry the load on keels from the two strong points , the chine and centrline or tanktop and to spread out the load of the skeg was self evident and not the result of failures. Jack's engine mouints and Mungo's keels are all the structural failures that I'm aware of . Gary Curtis was using plastic thru hulls and valves in steel boats ,in order to comply with ABS rules. So much for their credibility. LLoyds requires stainless keelbolts on wooden boats now, even tho that leads to rapid crevice corrosion in the bolts. So much for their credibility. Given all the reefs you have bashed , I hope yopur judgement in design matters exceeds your navigation skills.I'm beginning to have my doubts. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The ability to > survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The Bones has > wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have long lost > count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double spreader, keel > stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that pleasure. > However, as has been said many times by others, stories of success prove > nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. > > Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were required in any > metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number > of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami boats were > originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting the bilge > keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is consistent > with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and found it > necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list for the group > all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in origami boats. > As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of avoiding them. > > I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand the > geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of > understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the method." As I > recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an attachment makes > it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point out where the > lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and strength. > Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a result of its > moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its geometry. > > Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making the > attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it stronger, which > can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the forces. For > this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 times > stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail sooner than > expected. > > Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, not the > boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As a result, > the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed construction, to > select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for origami, without > relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly adapted to > origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how their > strength compares with other metal boats. > > ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction result in > much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done on purpose, > because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much stronger > than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a grounding > and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as strong as other > metal boats. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on our web > site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot compare one > drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on each drawing. > From this you will see that the first example has a maximum stress of 10,500 > PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - an 8 fold > reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last example > (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first example > (frameless) before failure. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional > > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, > > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non that > > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of > > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for many > > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of using > > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the individual, > > not a shortcomming in the method. > > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand > > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal > > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the centreline as > > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times more > > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it as > > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, but > > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. > > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all > > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, > > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on > > rubber to hold the engine in place. > > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been thru > > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their scantlings. > > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs > > been thru? > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both > > mounts would > >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > > seaway, if > >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a > > 500 lb > >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > >> > >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has > > been > >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > > similar to > >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal > > mounted at > >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like > > the other > >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are subject > > to > >> fatigue and failure without warning. > >> > >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > > standard is > >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and when > > the > >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, > > they > >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings > > for ABS and > >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > >> > >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > > fatigue? Has > >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be > > considered > >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > > This > >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see any > > reason to > >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > > scantlings > >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser > > scantlings than is > >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to > > make them > >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "brentswain38" > >> To: > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed > > that > >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten inches > >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members > > involved. I > >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal > > fatigue > >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > >> > after . > >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed small > >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and > > always > >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > > cases > >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been repeating > >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > >> > Brent Swain > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember > > your > >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner > > with > >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and remember > > well > >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. They > > were > >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was > > that > >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the time. > >> >> > >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one of > >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, > > then > >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some time > > ago > >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, > > but no > >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, which > > are > >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures such > >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our > > view > >> > of origami is biased. > >> >> > >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think > > that > >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal boat > >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous idea > >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is not > >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that say > >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and strong. > >> >> > >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg > > lead to > >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it > > looks > >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get about > >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water pressure on > >> > the skeg and rudder. > >> >> > >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around from > >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of the > >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is part of > >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the skeg, > > and > >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could > > well > >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. > > Thus > >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse framing, > >> > with a girder system between. > >> >> > >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in skegs. > >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > >> >> > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> >> > >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a > > small > >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: silascrosby > >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to avoid > >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- hash > >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have heard > > of > >> > is > >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > >> > number > >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively > > unscathed. > >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > >> > Suva,Fiji > >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 month > >> > old > >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way home > > to > >> > BC. > >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal boats. > >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a 40' > >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere > > between > >> > NZ > >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. > > Ship,container > >> > or > >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > >> > harbour > >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet them.Their 'Island > >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > >> > engine > >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > >> > flange. > >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an hour > > or > >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > >> > motoring > >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > >> > Monica). > >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel and > >> > hit > >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - > > missed > >> > the > >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. Dented.OK. > >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver Island- > >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can > > tell > >> > it > >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > >> > except > >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots we > > hit > >> > a > >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large - scale > >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the starboard > >> > keel > >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but lunch > > was > >> > on > >> >> the floor,jam-side down. > >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of disaster,real or > >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > >> > others. > >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who sometimes > > is > >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the > > skipper > >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > >> > managed > >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon 3' > > in > >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum origami > >> > twin > >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > >> > Allison > >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! We > >> > were > >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good seas > >> > at > >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and ripping > >> >> along.Excellent sailing. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > --- > >> > ---------- > >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> >> > >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > >> > Service. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5365|5365|2004-09-09 17:34:52|denis buggy|Re: welding orgami boats|dear all you may be interested in my proposed method of boat building and I would welcome useful criticism from any source . bus manufacture in northern Spain is carried out quite differently from the remainder of humanity and they have taken a huge market share and scooped major export awards as a result of being able to frame up and clad a structure at a much lower cost than else where . they make a simple jig of large proportions which can be wheeled on acres of concrete by hand pressure of a few workers . in the middle of this giant coke tin is the space for a frame of a bus all dimensions are proven and steel is held and welded and then the structure is then rolled a few more meters and welding of the otherside or any side of the frame which suits takes place no special rods or skill required as most welds are horizontal . panels merely rest on a flat surface and are welded without clamps as gravity works on 360 degrees of the jig , merely roll entire structure until a smile appears and stop and weld . regards denis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5366|22|2004-09-09 18:29:46|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /BS 26ft.jpg Uploaded by : pascalibook Description : BS 26' specs,profile&sailplan You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/BS%2026ft.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, pascalibook | 5367|5351|2004-09-09 18:44:27|pascalibook|Re: BS 26 Info ???|Dear Mister Swain, Alex sure is busy building so I made the scan you wished for and posted it in Files and Photos , I am realy looking forward to see or hear more , see my mail here-under. Is the profile the centerkeel version with the doghouse version ? Is this the Yard's sales-brochure ? What is included in the plans you offer for sale? Waterlinesplan ? Constructionplan ? Scantlings ? Are there studyplans or bidplans ?? Sory to ask for answers , but afther many mails and many stories and waiting for one month I am realy curious . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" wrote: > Dear Mister Swain , > Your book arrived today and to be honnest I was a bit surprised > with the BS 26 information , you advised to buy the book for. > May I refer to my mail from 1 Augustus to the Canadian builder > that offers that hull for sale and still does today : > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/Pricing.htm > How many BS 26 are there being build or where build today ? > With some extras the bill sure will be higher than 50000 $ > does that company sells finished ( I mean without the > accomodation ) hulls to the amateur furniture builder ? > What must an interested customer do to obtain more info > than available on page 114 of your book , especialy if he > wants to place an order ? > What are the salesconditions and delivery terms ? > Is there any garantee on the work ?? > On there website I see the Reward section ; I would consider > it a real Reward to even see a decent > presentation design , as usual in any boattransaction ? > Thanks in advance for your time > > > > Date:  Sun Aug 1, 2004  11:55 pm > > Subject:  Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' > > Plan > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENTPascale > > The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . It's a > > simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft with the > > single keeler. Perhaps It's time I got Alex to scan in the > sailplans > > of all my boats on this website.The specs are all given in the > > back > > of my book. If you have any other questions you can email me > at > > brentswain38@y... > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" > > > > wrote: > > > Hi All , I need some help or directions . > > > The messages I send keep coming back : > > > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > > > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > > > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to > > > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > > delete your own text from the message returned below. > > > > > > The Postfix program > > > > > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > > > said: 553 5.3.0 > > > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > > > to RCPT TO > > > command) > > > > > > Van: Pascale > > > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > > > Aan: > > > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > > > > > Dear Sir , > > > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > > > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > > > with or without a pilothouse. > > > Could you give me directions how to see the > > > presentation or general plan > > > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > > > Thanks in advance . | 5368|5365|2004-09-09 20:06:00|Courtney Thomas|Re: welding orgami boats|Fascinating stuff ! However, please excuse my obtuseness in that I can't envision what the jig looks like except that it can be manually rolled around and is able to contain the bus frame. Please elaborate on the jig or provide a URL for pictures. Cordially, Courtney denis buggy wrote: > dear all you may be interested in my proposed method of boat building and I would welcome useful criticism from any source . > bus manufacture in northern Spain is carried out quite differently from the remainder of humanity and they have taken a huge market share and scooped major export awards as a result of being able to frame up and clad a structure at a much lower cost than else where . > they make a simple jig of large proportions which can be wheeled on acres of concrete by hand pressure of a few workers . > in the middle of this giant coke tin is the space for a frame of a bus > all dimensions are proven and steel is held and welded and then the structure is then rolled a few more meters and welding of the otherside or any side of the frame which suits takes place no special rods or skill required as most welds are horizontal . panels merely rest on a flat surface and are welded without clamps as gravity works on 360 degrees of the jig , merely roll entire structure until a smile appears and stop and weld . regards denis > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5369|5339|2004-09-09 21:01:19|Henri Naths|Re: Port Townsend|Brent, Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have e-mail address(s) per chance? Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 09 September, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a bone doctor ,was building one there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Hey all , > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port Townsend. Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would love to stop in next time around and check it out.. > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5370|5168|2004-09-10 01:19:33|fmichael graham|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Well said, Ted! I queried my Father - a retired Metallurgical Engineer - on this subject as he is somewhat familiar with Brent's design concept. The jist of his comments were that: 1) As an Engineer, he would study the pros & cons prior to embarking on the construction of any boat of any material & any design. 2) As an Engineer, he would explore the possible causes of any structural failure and make design corrections where deemed necessary. 3) My Father agrees with Greg Elliott's comments regarding the study of failures over successes, but suggests that the success that the vast majority of "Swain owners" have had with these boats is not inconsequential. He also feels that the failure in 1 or 2 boats may be due to design flaws, construction irregularities, or unrealistic abuse/expectations of the finished product, and that, until a qualified engineer is willing to take on an analyses of the design & construction of these boats, we are all just "chasing our own tails" on this subject. 4) He said that, without the required analyses, altering the present design could be a serious mistake, as the resultant design would be unproven and could create more of a fatigue risk than the present design. I am curious to know what your friends think about the Swain boatbuilding "technique". As the son - and former employee - of an Engineer, I realize that they are prone to err on the side of EXTREME caution, still, it would be of value to read of their thoughts on the design & construction aspects of these boats. Regards, Mike edward_stoneuk wrote: Greg, Regarding your FEA plot: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed them your plot, their comments were as follows: 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build it? 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless as an aid to design. 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent stress. 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to know that the analysis was rubbish. 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack starting and propagating. My comments are: Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used inappropriately. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5371|5168|2004-09-10 02:02:16|Gordo L|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|I've been following this discussion and would like to weigh-in with a suggestion. Anyone with access to a metal origami boat can easily attach strain gauges to the inside of the hull and measure the actual stresses associated with use, in any condition (including thermal expansion just sitting at dock). This non-destructive approach would identify exactly what the hull experiences, and would not leave to chance the gap between FEA (even if well designed) and actual loading conditions. A web search will return a zillion sites, and the gauges can be ridiculously inexpensive. With a laptop you could plot the mechanical behavior of you hull. Probably best to consult an experienced tech on best-practice for application. Disclaimer: I've never built a metal boat. I am, however, a Materials Engineer who spent 7 years designing parts and performing failure analysis on cast and fab'd components. I've since changed over to software, because that�s what people in Seattle do, but topics like this one will always fascinate me. Keep it up, guys. Gordon fmichael graham wrote: Well said, Ted! I queried my Father - a retired Metallurgical Engineer - on this subject as he is somewhat familiar with Brent's design concept. The jist of his comments were that: 1) As an Engineer, he would study the pros & cons prior to embarking on the construction of any boat of any material & any design. 2) As an Engineer, he would explore the possible causes of any structural failure and make design corrections where deemed necessary. 3) My Father agrees with Greg Elliott's comments regarding the study of failures over successes, but suggests that the success that the vast majority of "Swain owners" have had with these boats is not inconsequential. He also feels that the failure in 1 or 2 boats may be due to design flaws, construction irregularities, or unrealistic abuse/expectations of the finished product, and that, until a qualified engineer is willing to take on an analyses of the design & construction of these boats, we are all just "chasing our own tails" on this subject. 4) He said that, without the required analyses, altering the present design could be a serious mistake, as the resultant design would be unproven and could create more of a fatigue risk than the present design. I am curious to know what your friends think about the Swain boatbuilding "technique". As the son - and former employee - of an Engineer, I realize that they are prone to err on the side of EXTREME caution, still, it would be of value to read of their thoughts on the design & construction aspects of these boats. Regards, Mike edward_stoneuk wrote: Greg, Regarding your FEA plot: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed them your plot, their comments were as follows: 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build it? 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless as an aid to design. 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent stress. 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to know that the analysis was rubbish. 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack starting and propagating. My comments are: Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used inappropriately. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5372|5237|2004-09-10 04:05:37|Ben Tucker|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|Hi all A quick survey around here on watercooled manifolds The folks 70hp 4 cylinder ford has a retrofitted FW cooled manifold and raw water cooled wet exhaust. Two friends one with an Adams 35 with a perkins 4108 4 cyl and another with a Mercedes in his Bucannan has the same setup. My boat with a 3 cyl Isuzu has a dry exhaust and a dry manifold (the engine is FW cooled from the skeg)After seeing my set up another freind did the same when installing his engine (Another Isuzu 3KR1? that originally came out of a comercial fishing boat as a genset) On both our boats the manifold doen't seem excessivly hot but the next time I go for a run I will check it out, I have plenty of space around mine. and no wood close (apparently wood can kind of slowly dry out over years of heat exposure and then unexpectely burst into flame at a fairly low temp!) A marine engineer I work with is installing a large 60hp Isuzu from a car into his yacht. He intends to try it first without the waterjacket, and if nescesary try insulating it or wrapping water cooled copper tube around the manifold to absorb some heat. The Fizz boat fraternity seem to have a few problems with their gas guzzlers corroding through the waterjacket in the manifold and getting water into the cylinders. Seems that a water cooled manifold is nice but not essentail? Cheers Ben > My last engine was an aircooled diesel with a dry manifold. It was > hot, but worked wel for 12 years. My current engine is watercooled > with a watercooled manifold and dry exhuast' It works well. > Brent > | 5373|5278|2004-09-10 05:36:42|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds|For pressure welds in commercial service, there exists a different process regime, and also for the qualifications of the welders who do the job (at least that's the case here). Root runs in HP piping (fairly common in power stations etc.) usually require a TIG root pass into a standard preparation of joint, followed by either MIG or GMAW (= stick) to a specific sequence of bead and its intended location and direction. Gerald's comment regarding the oil leaks through a MIG weld sound like a possible process variation which should have been eliminated. No process is perfect, but if we work to minimise the variations, the margins are normally sufficient to ensure that the welds (in this case) are more than adequate for the purpose in hand. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Niffenegger [mailto:niffeneggerniff@...] Sent: Thursday, 9 September 2004 20:24 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mig Welders & strength of welds I for one am convinced that .035 will provide a good strong weld. I welded my race car frames with it and am still here to tell the story. At Cat we welded the tractor cabs with .035 and they take a fair beating on a day to day basis. However, I am wondering about the pressure vessel welds? I once welded on the hydraulic tube line. It has been a long time but it seems like at pressures over 3,000 PSI it was indicated on the print that we use stick only. As I recall the claim was that under high pressure the oil would leak right thru the weld if welded with MIG. At the time I thought it was about the silliest thing I had heard of and recall having the tester try some of my MIG welds at pressures far over 3,000 and they didn't leak. For sure there had been a problem at some point in time for the engineering department to indicate such a thing on a blue print. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gary, > We use to do x-ray quality welds on pressure vessels with .035 wire,... I couldn't run fast enough if the thing blew up.... maybe you should of hired an engineered co.and cwb certified welders that would of saved you a lot of money, because you know what ?... it guaranteed ! > Henri To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 5374|5168|2004-09-10 05:45:52|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|That was a refreshing contribution to an interesting debate. The range of potential inputs to a real-life situation in diverse configurations leaves us in the position of deciding what safety factor is appropriate in each case. Terry -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Thursday, 9 September 2004 21:29 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents Greg, Regarding your FEA plot: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed them your plot, their comments were as follows: 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build it? 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless as an aid to design. 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent stress. 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to know that the analysis was rubbish. 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack starting and propagating. My comments are: Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used inappropriately. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5375|5365|2004-09-10 06:38:53|Gerd|Re: welding orgami boats|Denis, something like that was done already with boats: META some 20 years years ago, builders of the JOSHUA, had a big roatating jig, two giant wheels holding the hull and rotating it lengthwise, with all welds bein done flat. I remember having seen that in Voile et Voiliers, and I am still trying to find a picture of that somwhere. Rolling it along the field is of course a lovely variation ;-) Actually I am thinking about rolling my hull (no keels...) over in the garden for welding, will see when i get there... Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear all you may be interested in my proposed method of boat building and I would welcome useful criticism from any source . > bus manufacture in northern Spain is carried out quite differently from the remainder of humanity and they have taken a huge market share and scooped major export awards as a result of being able to frame up and clad a structure at a much lower cost than else where . > they make a simple jig of large proportions which can be wheeled on acres of concrete by hand pressure of a few workers . > in the middle of this giant coke tin is the space for a frame of a bus > all dimensions are proven and steel is held and welded and then the structure is then rolled a few more meters and welding of the otherside or any side of the frame which suits takes place no special rods or skill required as most welds are horizontal . panels merely rest on a flat surface and are welded without clamps as gravity works on 360 degrees of the jig , merely roll entire structure until a smile appears and stop and weld . regards denis > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5376|5237|2004-09-10 11:56:39|Michael Casling|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|Ben, good report. The motor in my fizz boat did what you said. There was a large hole in one cylinder. The exhaust was mush, the intermediate housing was also badly corroded. The replacement parts were very expensive. The best plan was to junk the whole lot and not make the same mistake. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Tucker" To: Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 1:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wet or dry exhaust > Hi all > > A quick survey around here on watercooled manifolds > > The folks 70hp 4 cylinder ford has a retrofitted FW cooled manifold > and raw water cooled wet exhaust. > > Two friends one with an Adams 35 with a perkins 4108 4 cyl and > another with a Mercedes in his Bucannan has the same setup. > > My boat with a 3 cyl Isuzu has a dry exhaust and a dry manifold (the > engine is FW cooled from the skeg)After seeing my set up another > freind did the same when installing his engine (Another Isuzu 3KR1? > that originally came out of a comercial fishing boat as a genset) > > On both our boats the manifold doen't seem excessivly hot but the > next time I go for a run I will check it out, I have plenty of space > around mine. and no wood close (apparently wood can kind of slowly > dry out over years of heat exposure and then unexpectely burst into > flame at a fairly low temp!) > > A marine engineer I work with is installing a large 60hp Isuzu from a > car into his yacht. He intends to try it first without the > waterjacket, and if nescesary try insulating it or wrapping water > cooled copper tube around the manifold to absorb some heat. > > The Fizz boat fraternity seem to have a few problems with their gas > guzzlers corroding through the waterjacket in the manifold and > getting water into the cylinders. > > Seems that a water cooled manifold is nice but not essentail? > > Cheers > > Ben > > > My last engine was an aircooled diesel with a dry manifold. It was > > hot, but worked wel for 12 years. My current engine is watercooled > > with a watercooled manifold and dry exhuast' It works well. > > Brent > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5377|5365|2004-09-10 12:05:21|sae140|Re: welding orgami boats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Actually I am thinking about rolling my hull (no keels...) over in > the garden for welding, will see when i get there... > > Gerd If anyone wants to turn their hull (with or without keels) to enjoy the luxury of flat position seam welding - I've posted a couple of pics in the OrigamiBoats\Files section showing one method of turning a hull. The boat shown was a heavy wooden hull built by Walt Murray who is perhaps better known for his self-steering webpage. Colin| 5378|5237|2004-09-10 12:25:35|sae140|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Ben, good report. The motor in my fizz boat did what you said. There was a > large hole in one cylinder. The exhaust was mush, the intermediate housing > was also badly corroded. The replacement parts were very expensive. The best > plan was to junk the whole lot and not make the same mistake. Michael > > The Fizz boat fraternity seem to have a few problems with their gas > > guzzlers corroding through the waterjacket in the manifold and > > getting water into the cylinders. > > > > Seems that a water cooled manifold is nice but not essentail? > > > > Cheers Ben I've recently been talking with some vintage marine engine enthusiasts - they tell me that apart from corrosion of the exhaust manifold which you mention, another common reason for junking otherwise servicable old engines is cracking of the water-cooled manifold due to icing-up in winter, in systems that are not drained- down. Colin| 5379|5365|2004-09-10 12:56:01|Gerd|Re: welding orgami boats|Thanks Colin, looks quite wild really ;-) I was thinking about something like that, but wondering if I might simply roll the hull as-is, no wheel or re-inforcement, it's really quite "round" with the double chine, and should be plenty stiff once the stringers are in, more like heeling it on the dry... would not dare to flop it over on the cabin though. My main interest would be to be able to do the only 2 vertical joints I have in the upper panel - from joining single sheets - as flat as possible, I am not very good at that and the cleaner I weld it, the better it will look. The rest of the joints being more or les flat y and under the waterline, it's not really worth building a bigger contraption for rolling. Gerd the YAGO Project, at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5380|5168|2004-09-10 12:57:21|Henri Naths|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Gordon, LOL, ( I've since changed over to software, because that's what people in Seattle do, ). As opposed to the hillbillies in the great white north?... LOL At least we don't have the traffic jams like the I-5 just kidding ... weight in more often. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordo L" To: Sent: 10 September, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents I've been following this discussion and would like to weigh-in with a suggestion. Anyone with access to a metal origami boat can easily attach strain gauges to the inside of the hull and measure the actual stresses associated with use, in any condition (including thermal expansion just sitting at dock). This non-destructive approach would identify exactly what the hull experiences, and would not leave to chance the gap between FEA (even if well designed) and actual loading conditions. A web search will return a zillion sites, and the gauges can be ridiculously inexpensive. With a laptop you could plot the mechanical behavior of you hull. Probably best to consult an experienced tech on best-practice for application. Disclaimer: I've never built a metal boat. I am, however, a Materials Engineer who spent 7 years designing parts and performing failure analysis on cast and fab'd components. I've since changed over to software, because that's what people in Seattle do, but topics like this one will always fascinate me. Keep it up, guys. Gordon fmichael graham wrote: Well said, Ted! I queried my Father - a retired Metallurgical Engineer - on this subject as he is somewhat familiar with Brent's design concept. The jist of his comments were that: 1) As an Engineer, he would study the pros & cons prior to embarking on the construction of any boat of any material & any design. 2) As an Engineer, he would explore the possible causes of any structural failure and make design corrections where deemed necessary. 3) My Father agrees with Greg Elliott's comments regarding the study of failures over successes, but suggests that the success that the vast majority of "Swain owners" have had with these boats is not inconsequential. He also feels that the failure in 1 or 2 boats may be due to design flaws, construction irregularities, or unrealistic abuse/expectations of the finished product, and that, until a qualified engineer is willing to take on an analyses of the design & construction of these boats, we are all just "chasing our own tails" on this subject. 4) He said that, without the required analyses, altering the present design could be a serious mistake, as the resultant design would be unproven and could create more of a fatigue risk than the present design. I am curious to know what your friends think about the Swain boatbuilding "technique". As the son - and former employee - of an Engineer, I realize that they are prone to err on the side of EXTREME caution, still, it would be of value to read of their thoughts on the design & construction aspects of these boats. Regards, Mike edward_stoneuk wrote: Greg, Regarding your FEA plot: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed them your plot, their comments were as follows: 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build it? 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless as an aid to design. 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent stress. 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to know that the analysis was rubbish. 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack starting and propagating. My comments are: Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used inappropriately. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 5381|5339|2004-09-10 12:57:25|Richard Till|Re: Port Townsend|Henri, whats the news? Are you going to build? Did sea trials for VW Borg Warner combo on Sunday morning. Works OK. Need to install oil cooler for VW and mofify drive plate set-up. Still under budget. Floating and well in Sechelt. I have a spare rebuilt Borg Warner 71C for sale--$1000; a spare 47 aluminum pole with shiv' box and base welded up for $1500 obo. Also a spare schd. 80 leading edge for a fin keel, cut to 1/2 free for the asking. rt >From: "Henri Naths" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:50:01 -0600 > >Brent, >Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have e-mail address(s) per >chance? >Henri. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 09 September, 2004 2:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a bone > doctor ,was building one there. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Hey all , > > > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port Townsend. > Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would love to > stop in next time around and check it out.. > > Henri > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >Service. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft� SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5382|5237|2004-09-10 13:25:02|Michael Casling|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|That is very common around here where the engines are cooled with fresh water. Cracked blocks, cracked manifolds, cracked heat exchangers. I drain my engine every time I use it from about mid October to mid March. We had a customer who cracked the block of a 307 Chev in his boat and insurance bought him a new engine, I used all the parts from his barely used cracked motor and put them in my 307 engine in my 69 GMC pickup. Another reason why I want to run my fishing boat motor with a closed cooling system and antifreeze. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wet or dry exhaust > > I've recently been talking with some vintage marine engine > enthusiasts - they tell me that apart from corrosion of the exhaust > manifold which you mention, another common reason for junking > otherwise servicable old engines is cracking of the water-cooled > manifold due to icing-up in winter, in systems that are not drained- > down. > > Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5383|5237|2004-09-10 14:24:41|David K McComber|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|I had thought that CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c) were updates of the 1940 regulation that I mentioned earlier. If so something that was unchanged would not be repeated? All I know is that 99% of all boats have a water-cooled exhaust manifold, and I have seen many un cooled exhaust manifolds glowing read hot when the engine was working. It is more visible in the dark. I wouldn't own a boat without one. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). They break it down into passenger and non-passenger boats. In each group gas and diesel are subject to different regulations. In the section about diesel engines on non-passenger boats I don't see any thing about any water-cooling required. In fact they make the specific statement that an air-cooled diesel is permitted. There is NO REQUIREMENT FOR WATER COOLED MANAFOLDS. Unlike gas engines, which appear to require water-cooling with the exception of deck-mounted auxiliary units. Gas engines MUST be water cooled to meet the regulation on passenger boats caring more then 12 passengers for hire. Commercial boats less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers for hire may elect to use the ABYC standards and ignore this regulation altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. There is a difference in the requirements between a private, commercial boat not carrying paying passengers and a boat caring paying passengers. Unless I am misreading this or it has been superseded by new regulations it says no WATER COOLED manifolds are necessary on a diesel for private use. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5384|5237|2004-09-10 14:45:59|Henri Naths|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|David Is there such a thing as a air cooled exhaust manifold? Just a brain fart.H ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 10 September, 2004 12:24 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust I had thought that CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c) were updates of the 1940 regulation that I mentioned earlier. If so something that was unchanged would not be repeated? All I know is that 99% of all boats have a water-cooled exhaust manifold, and I have seen many un cooled exhaust manifolds glowing read hot when the engine was working. It is more visible in the dark. I wouldn't own a boat without one. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). They break it down into passenger and non-passenger boats. In each group gas and diesel are subject to different regulations. In the section about diesel engines on non-passenger boats I don't see any thing about any water-cooling required. In fact they make the specific statement that an air-cooled diesel is permitted. There is NO REQUIREMENT FOR WATER COOLED MANAFOLDS. Unlike gas engines, which appear to require water-cooling with the exception of deck-mounted auxiliary units. Gas engines MUST be water cooled to meet the regulation on passenger boats caring more then 12 passengers for hire. Commercial boats less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers for hire may elect to use the ABYC standards and ignore this regulation altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. There is a difference in the requirements between a private, commercial boat not carrying paying passengers and a boat caring paying passengers. Unless I am misreading this or it has been superseded by new regulations it says no WATER COOLED manifolds are necessary on a diesel for private use. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5385|5339|2004-09-10 15:05:56|Henri Naths|Re: Port Townsend|Richard Unfortuatly the only trials I've done are in my 96 vw passat....road trip to Port Townsend.... total miles: 1970...cost $100.00 cn-- american diesel, (more c-tane value than canadian diesel (so I'm told))car was loaded with 4 adults and one baby, for my future boat it's a vw tdi 1.9 Do you have something in mind for an oil cooler? What is the reduction on the Borg Warner and prop. size I think I see another road trip coming up.lol Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Till" To: Sent: 10 September, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > Henri, whats the news? Are you going to build? Did sea trials for VW Borg > Warner combo on Sunday morning. Works OK. Need to install oil cooler for > VW and mofify drive plate set-up. Still under budget. Floating and well in > Sechelt. I have a spare rebuilt Borg Warner 71C for sale--$1000; a spare 47 > aluminum pole with shiv' box and base welded up for $1500 obo. Also a spare > schd. 80 leading edge for a fin keel, cut to 1/2 free for the asking. rt > > > >From: "Henri Naths" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:50:01 -0600 > > > >Brent, > >Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have e-mail address(s) per > >chance? > >Henri. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: 09 September, 2004 2:53 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a bone > > doctor ,was building one there. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > wrote: > > > Hey all , > > > > > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port Townsend. > > Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would love to > > stop in next time around and check it out.. > > > Henri > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > >Service. > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft® > SmartScreen Technology. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5386|5386|2004-09-10 16:46:46|fenixrises|Bottom paint|Hi all, Cruising around on the web I found a link to this site: http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html The main idea here is to make your own copper/epoxy bottom paint at a fraction of the cost from commercial suppliers. Happy sails to you Fred| 5387|5351|2004-09-10 18:37:33|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Info ???|Plans include hull lines, plate shape layout,scantlings materials list, deck layout and detail, mast and rigging, sailplan, interior layout, rigging detail.The profile is the same for single keels or twin keels. You could raise the aft part of the cabin for a wheelhouse . Winston did that for his trip thru thr NW passage, altho he over did it a bit. The only study plans are the drawings in the back of my book. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" wrote: > Dear Mister Swain, > Alex sure is busy building so I made the scan you wished for > and posted it in Files and Photos , I am realy looking forward > to see or hear more , see my mail here-under. > Is the profile the centerkeel version with the doghouse version ? > Is this the Yard's sales-brochure ? > What is included in the plans you offer for sale? > Waterlinesplan ? > Constructionplan ? > Scantlings ? > Are there studyplans or bidplans ?? > Sory to ask for answers , but afther many mails and many > stories and waiting for one month I am realy curious . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" > wrote: > > Dear Mister Swain , > > Your book arrived today and to be honnest I was a bit surprised > > with the BS 26 information , you advised to buy the book for. > > May I refer to my mail from 1 Augustus to the Canadian builder > > that offers that hull for sale and still does today : > > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/Pricing.htm > > How many BS 26 are there being build or where build today ? > > With some extras the bill sure will be higher than 50000 $ > > does that company sells finished ( I mean without the > > accomodation ) hulls to the amateur furniture builder ? > > What must an interested customer do to obtain more info > > than available on page 114 of your book , especialy if he > > wants to place an order ? > > What are the salesconditions and delivery terms ? > > Is there any garantee on the work ?? > > On there website I see the Reward section ; I would consider > > it a real Reward to even see a decent > > presentation design , as usual in any boattransaction ? > > Thanks in advance for your time > > > > > > > Date:  Sun Aug 1, 2004  11:55 pm > > > Subject:  Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' > > > Plan > > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENTPascale > > > The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . It's a > > > simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft with the > > > single keeler. Perhaps It's time I got Alex to scan in the > > sailplans > > > of all my boats on this website.The specs are all given in the > > > back > > > of my book. If you have any other questions you can email me > > at > > > brentswain38@y... > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi All , I need some help or directions . > > > > The messages I send keep coming back : > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > > > > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > > > > > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to > > > > > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > > > delete your own text from the message returned below. > > > > > > > > The Postfix program > > > > > > > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > > > > said: 553 5.3.0 > > > > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > > > > to RCPT TO > > > > command) > > > > > > > > Van: Pascale > > > > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > > > > Aan: > > > > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > > > > > > > Dear Sir , > > > > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > > > > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > > > > with or without a pilothouse. > > > > Could you give me directions how to see the > > > > presentation or general plan > > > > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > > > > Thanks in advance . | 5388|5339|2004-09-10 19:05:10|richytill|Re: Port Townsend|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Richard > Unfortuatly the only trials I've done are in my 96 vw passat....road trip to > Port Townsend.... total miles: 1970...cost $100.00 cn-- american diesel, > (more c-tane value than canadian diesel (so I'm told))car was loaded with 4 > adults and one baby, for my future boat it's a vw tdi 1.9 > Do you have something in mind for an oil cooler? What is the reduction on > the Borg Warner and prop. size I think I see another road trip coming up.lol > Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Till" > To: > Sent: 10 September, 2004 10:57 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > Henri, whats the news? Are you going to build? Did sea trials for VW > Borg > > Warner combo on Sunday morning. Works OK. Need to install oil cooler for > > VW and mofify drive plate set-up. Still under budget. Floating and well > in > > Sechelt. I have a spare rebuilt Borg Warner 71C for sale--$1000; a spare > 47 > > aluminum pole with shiv' box and base welded up for $1500 obo. Also a > spare > > schd. 80 leading edge for a fin keel, cut to 1/2 free for the asking. rt > > > > > > >From: "Henri Naths" > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:50:01 -0600 > > > > > >Brent, > > >Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have e-mail address (s) per > > >chance? > > >Henri. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: 09 September, 2004 2:53 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > > > > Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a bone > > > doctor ,was building one there. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > > wrote: > > > > Hey all , > > > > > > > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port Townsend. > > > Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would love to > > > stop in next time around and check it out.. > > > > Henri > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > --- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented > Microsoft® > > SmartScreen Technology. > > > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en- ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar ket_MSNIS_Taglines > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > > first two months FREE*. > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5389|5351|2004-09-10 20:26:15|Brent Geery|Re: BS 26 Info ???|On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:31 -0000, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Plans include hull lines, plate shape layout,scantlings materials > list, deck layout and detail, mast and rigging, sailplan, interior > layout, rigging detail.The profile is the same for single keels or > twin keels. You could raise the aft part of the cabin for a > wheelhouse . Winston did that for his trip thru thr NW passage, altho > he over did it a bit. > The only study plans are the drawings in the back of my book. > Brent Swain Brent, can you let me know which page is supposed to have this "interior layout" for the 26 footer? On the 5 sheets sent to me, there is nothing that I recognize as interior layout. Is there a page missing? I'd really like to get this information. Thanks. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5390|5351|2004-09-10 22:51:45|pascalibook|Re: BS 26 Info ???|Thanks for the answer ; who is Winston ? Did a BS 26' did the NW passage or was that a larger boat ? Is the "Wilson " Boat a single or twin keels BS 26' ? Wich leave me with the question as written bellow : How many BS 26' where or are being build today ? Thanks for your time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Plans include hull lines, plate shape layout,scantlings materials > list, deck layout and detail, mast and rigging, sailplan, interior > layout, rigging detail.The profile is the same for single keels or > twin keels. You could raise the aft part of the cabin for a > wheelhouse . Winston did that for his trip thru thr NW passage, altho > he over did it a bit. > The only study plans are the drawings in the back of my book. > Brent Swain > > > Dear Mister Swain , > > > Your book arrived today and to be honnest I was a bit surprised > > > with the BS 26 information , you advised to buy the book for. > > > May I refer to my mail from 1 Augustus to the Canadian builder > > > that offers that hull for sale and still does today : > > > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/Pricing.htm > > > How many BS 26 are there being build or where build today ? > > > What must an interested customer do to obtain more info > > > than available on page 114 of your book , especialy if he > > > wants to place an order ? > > > What are the salesconditions and delivery terms ? > > > Is there any garantee on the work ?? > > > I would consider > > > it a real Reward to even see a decent > > > presentation design , as usual in any boattransaction ? > > > Thanks in advance for your time > > > > ADVERTISEMENTPascale > > > > The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . It's a > > > > simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft > with the single keeler. The specs are all given in the bac of my book. > > > > > The Postfix program > > > > > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > > > > > said: 553 5.3.0 > > > > > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > > > > > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > > > > > Aan: > > > > > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir , > > > > > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > > > > > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > > > > > with or without a pilothouse. > > > > > Could you give me directions how to see the > > > > > presentation or general plan > > > > > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > > > > > Thanks in advance . | 5391|5351|2004-09-10 23:22:44|Brent Geery|Re: BS 26 Info ???|On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:51:41 -0000, "pascalibook" wrote: > Thanks for the answer ; who is Winston ? > Did a BS 26' did the NW passage or was that a larger boat ? > Is the "Wilson " Boat a single or twin keels BS 26' ? > Wich leave me with the question as written bellow : > How many BS 26' where or are being build today ? > Thanks for your time. > Have you checked out the Files and Photos section of this Group? Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ and check out "Dove III - 26 Northwest Passage veteran" and "Black-hulled 26'". These are the only pictures of the 26 footers that I know of. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5392|5351|2004-09-10 23:28:01|ben_azo|Re: BS 26 Info ???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:31 -0000, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Plans include hull lines, plate shape layout,scantlings materials > > list, deck layout and detail, mast and rigging, sailplan, interior > > layout, rigging detail.The profile is the same for single keels or > > twin keels. You could raise the aft part of the cabin for a > > wheelhouse . Winston did that for his trip thru thr NW passage, altho > > he over did it a bit. > > The only study plans are the drawings in the back of my book. > > Brent Swain > > Brent, can you let me know which page is supposed to have this > "interior layout" for the 26 footer? On the 5 sheets sent to me, > there is nothing that I recognize as interior layout. Is there a page > missing? I'd really like to get this information. Thanks. > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Hi BRENT ( the Usenet typo king ) From the previous post I see you received 5 sheets of drawings I presume drafted by hand , no plating program and calculation sheet whatso-ever but that's a Designer's previledge to do it that way even today . For a customer that purchased YM Tanton's Penn Gwyn plans we runed the plans thru our computer as said in an earlier post and found fantastic accuratly precise scantlings ( only 1 correction to be made ) , all European yards does the same today cause precutt and pretreated steel still is on offer at bargainprices and a precise cut kit sure is easyer to assemble and what a saving in hours . You have the previlege to ask us for the same and I sure am curious to see how the 26' performs on paper and sure compare the figures with other boats from the same size . Aren't you curious ? Or is your mind already made up that all is perfect ? You sure have a deckplan and an interior plan in mind , but will it fit ? Do you happen to know how many BS 26' have been or are being build today and wish versions did any sailing tests ? Are you in contact with those other prospect builders via this group or directly ? A good interior plan should allow you to do the building outside the boat ( as usualy done by professionals ) ; saving many hours and most of the time a much higher finish cause its much easyer to work feets on the workfloor in front of the workbench and sure less paint and or varnish odors in a confined space :-) I sure would love any comment . Old Ben| 5393|5365|2004-09-11 01:26:21|Ben Tucker|Re: welding orgami boats|Hi Gerd Yago is really coming along quick! I enjoyed your building guide. We rolled over my friends 29 foot steely in his backyard using a hired Turfer and my mainsheet block and tackle. we welded up two hoops out of 50x50x6mm angle and rounded it by cutting slots,bending and rewelding. then welding the lot to the hull. The only problems we had was the hoops buckling (so we spent an hour welding more studs to it) and swapping the turfer to the other side once at the balance point (should have hired two turfers). Also as the hull was undecked we had some slight denting around the sheerline. It certainly saved Adrian heaps of money and didn't seem to scary or out of control. The turfer gives you precise control and was $au 20 to hire for the day. Lots of car tyres would help distribute the load. Cheers Ben| 5394|5204|2004-09-11 01:29:03|Robert Gainer|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Gordon, I have used strain gauges on my boats. I use up to 8 load cells or glue on matrix gauges connected to 8 analog inputs using an omega OM-916 data acquisition box powered by an OM-903 using an omega OM-992 for formatting the output into serial communications for output to my laptop. I used it mostly on the mast and rigging with some quick checks on the rudderpost. Never on the hull structure itself. The problem with gages is that you are interested in the failure of the skeg or hull structure and that means that you need to stress it more then most people want to push the boat. Add to that, the loading is not linear and a test in 15 knots wind and 15-foot wave does not scale to 60 knots and 60-foot waves. The thing that is not known is what the loading is. The design is easy if you can determine the design conditions. The only way to get the loading is to sail in 90 knots and measure it. The only time I sailed in those conditions the last thing I was thinking about was drying out parts of the boat so that I could glue on gages. All the best, Robert Gainer By the way, do you know of freeware for the laptop to format the data stream coming into the COM port? I used LabTech and the hardware key is now bad. They have long since discontinued the software and will only offer me an upgrade price for a new version. I hate being locked into something like that and want to change software. Thanks. >From: Gordo L >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:01:38 -0700 (PDT) > > >I've been following this discussion and would like to weigh-in with a >suggestion. Anyone with access to a metal origami boat can easily attach >strain gauges to the inside of the hull and measure the actual stresses >associated with use, in any condition (including thermal expansion just >sitting at dock). > > > >This non-destructive approach would identify exactly what the hull >experiences, and would not leave to chance the gap between FEA (even if >well designed) and actual loading conditions. A web search will return a >zillion sites, and the gauges can be ridiculously inexpensive. With a >laptop you could plot the mechanical behavior of you hull. Probably best to >consult an experienced tech on best-practice for application. > > > >Disclaimer: I've never built a metal boat. I am, however, a Materials >Engineer who spent 7 years designing parts and performing failure analysis >on cast and fab'd components. I've since changed over to software, because >that�s what people in Seattle do, but topics like this one will always >fascinate me. > > > >Keep it up, guys. > > > >Gordon > > > >fmichael graham wrote: >Well said, Ted! >I queried my Father - a retired Metallurgical Engineer - on this subject as >he is somewhat familiar with Brent's design concept. >The jist of his comments were that: > >1) As an Engineer, he would study the pros & cons prior to embarking on the >construction of any boat of any material & any design. > >2) As an Engineer, he would explore the possible causes of any structural >failure and make design corrections where deemed necessary. > >3) My Father agrees with Greg Elliott's comments regarding the study of >failures over successes, but suggests that the success that the vast >majority of "Swain owners" have had with these boats is not >inconsequential. He also feels that the failure in 1 or 2 boats may be due >to design flaws, construction irregularities, or unrealistic >abuse/expectations of the finished product, and that, until a qualified >engineer is willing to take on an analyses of the design & construction of >these boats, we are all just "chasing our own tails" on this subject. > >4) He said that, without the required analyses, altering the present design >could be a serious mistake, as the resultant design would be unproven and >could create more of a fatigue risk than the present design. > >I am curious to know what your friends think about the Swain boatbuilding >"technique". As the son - and former employee - of an Engineer, I realize >that they are prone to err on the side of EXTREME caution, still, it would >be of value to read of their thoughts on the design & construction aspects >of these boats. >Regards, >Mike > >edward_stoneuk wrote: >Greg, > >Regarding your FEA plot: > >http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I >assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much >about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to >two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and >the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now >sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its >use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed >them your plot, their comments were as follows: > >1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external >cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build >it? >2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless >as an aid to design. >3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. >4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they >are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent >stress. >5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating >singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. >6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of >all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger >being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to >know that the analysis was rubbish. >7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure >of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study >of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack >starting and propagating. > >My comments are: > >Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- >axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. > >My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they >were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem >a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject >not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a >vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and >swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock >up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the >bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. > >Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what >was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end >up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has >been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the >UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the >availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used >inappropriately. > >Hope this helps. > >Regards, >Ted > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > >--------------------------------- >Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963| 5395|5204|2004-09-11 03:12:29|Gordo L|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Right on, Robert! I knew someone out there was getting creative. Measuring strain to failure would be useful, no doubt. My curiosity is more directed at developing a response profile. Gauges around areas of interest would need to collect data over periods of use, which would ideally subject the hull structure to various conditions. Probably not reasonable to expect loads causing permanent deformation or failure, although after reading some of the posts I suspect there are a few kamikazes out there. I guess the question is weather the response profile over elastic strain conditions would identify any useful design considerations? Regarding shareware, I don't currently know of anything but I'll keep a lookout. (I spent a few hours at work today searching the web for marine strain measurement info!). - Gordo Robert Gainer wrote: Gordon, I have used strain gauges on my boats. I use up to 8 load cells or glue on matrix gauges connected to 8 analog inputs using an omega OM-916 data acquisition box powered by an OM-903 using an omega OM-992 for formatting the output into serial communications for output to my laptop. I used it mostly on the mast and rigging with some quick checks on the rudderpost. Never on the hull structure itself. The problem with gages is that you are interested in the failure of the skeg or hull structure and that means that you need to stress it more then most people want to push the boat. Add to that, the loading is not linear and a test in 15 knots wind and 15-foot wave does not scale to 60 knots and 60-foot waves. The thing that is not known is what the loading is. The design is easy if you can determine the design conditions. The only way to get the loading is to sail in 90 knots and measure it. The only time I sailed in those conditions the last thing I was thinking about was drying out parts of the boat so that I could glue on gages. All the best, Robert Gainer By the way, do you know of freeware for the laptop to format the data stream coming into the COM port? I used LabTech and the hardware key is now bad. They have long since discontinued the software and will only offer me an upgrade price for a new version. I hate being locked into something like that and want to change software. Thanks. >From: Gordo L >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:01:38 -0700 (PDT) > > >I've been following this discussion and would like to weigh-in with a >suggestion. Anyone with access to a metal origami boat can easily attach >strain gauges to the inside of the hull and measure the actual stresses >associated with use, in any condition (including thermal expansion just >sitting at dock). > > > >This non-destructive approach would identify exactly what the hull >experiences, and would not leave to chance the gap between FEA (even if >well designed) and actual loading conditions. A web search will return a >zillion sites, and the gauges can be ridiculously inexpensive. With a >laptop you could plot the mechanical behavior of you hull. Probably best to >consult an experienced tech on best-practice for application. > > > >Disclaimer: I've never built a metal boat. I am, however, a Materials >Engineer who spent 7 years designing parts and performing failure analysis >on cast and fab'd components. I've since changed over to software, because >that�s what people in Seattle do, but topics like this one will always >fascinate me. > > > >Keep it up, guys. > > > >Gordon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5396|5365|2004-09-11 08:17:34|Courtney Thomas|Re: welding orgami boats|What's a turfer ? Thank you. Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hi Gerd > > Yago is really coming along quick! I enjoyed your building guide. > > We rolled over my friends 29 foot steely in his backyard using a > hired Turfer and my mainsheet block and tackle. > > we welded up two hoops out of 50x50x6mm angle and rounded it by > cutting slots,bending and rewelding. then welding the lot to the hull. > > The only problems we had was the hoops buckling (so we spent an hour > welding more studs to it) and swapping the turfer to the other side > once at the balance point (should have hired two turfers). Also as > the hull was undecked we had some slight denting around the sheerline. > > It certainly saved Adrian heaps of money and didn't seem to scary or > out of control. The turfer gives you precise control and was $au 20 > to hire for the day. Lots of car tyres would help distribute the load. > > Cheers > > Ben > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5397|5365|2004-09-11 09:22:59|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: welding orgami boats|I did a google of turfer and came up with a line of sports wear. My guess is that you buy a bunch of guys matching turfer jackets and working as a team they turn the boat over for you. Just a guess? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > What's a turfer ? > > Thank you. > Courtney | 5398|5365|2004-09-11 10:32:24|Henri Naths|Re: welding orgami boats|A turfer is a winch type mechhanisim in which a wire rope is passed thu and in increments of 2 or so inches,depending on the tonnage rating, the load can be raised or lowered.You have a handle of about 2 feet long (a piece of pipe)or so depending on the mechanical advantage you want, of coarse the longer the handle the more you can "turf"Like a come along but with wire rope. The nice thing about a turfer is you can use a snatch block and double the pulling power. ----- Original Message ----- From: Courtney Thomas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 11 September, 2004 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding orgami boats What's a turfer ? Thank you. Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hi Gerd > > Yago is really coming along quick! I enjoyed your building guide. > > We rolled over my friends 29 foot steely in his backyard using a > hired Turfer and my mainsheet block and tackle. > > we welded up two hoops out of 50x50x6mm angle and rounded it by > cutting slots,bending and rewelding. then welding the lot to the hull. > > The only problems we had was the hoops buckling (so we spent an hour > welding more studs to it) and swapping the turfer to the other side > once at the balance point (should have hired two turfers). Also as > the hull was undecked we had some slight denting around the sheerline. > > It certainly saved Adrian heaps of money and didn't seem to scary or > out of control. The turfer gives you precise control and was $au 20 > to hire for the day. Lots of car tyres would help distribute the load. > > Cheers > > Ben > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5399|5365|2004-09-11 11:31:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: welding orgami boats|Ah, a grip winch! I bought one of those at an auction years ago in a large lot and it took me a bit to figure out what it was. They are commonly used for lifting scaffolding up the side of a building. They put one on each end. Since it just grips the cable the only limit to the length of pull is the length of the cable. Neat device. I believe we only used it once or twice. As I recall it's great limitation was that it moved in 2" increments. That was far too large for fine positioning. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding orgami boats > A turfer is a winch type mechhanisim in which a wire rope is passed thu and in increments of 2 or so inches,depending on the tonnage rating, the load can be raised or lowered.You have a handle of about 2 feet long (a piece of pipe)or so depending on the mechanical advantage you want, of coarse the longer the handle the more you can "turf"Like a come along but with wire rope. The nice thing about a turfer is you can use a snatch block and double the pulling power. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Courtney Thomas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 11 September, 2004 7:31 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding orgami boats > > > What's a turfer ? > > Thank you. > Courtney > > > Ben Tucker wrote: > > > Hi Gerd > > > > Yago is really coming along quick! I enjoyed your building guide. > > > > We rolled over my friends 29 foot steely in his backyard using a > > hired Turfer and my mainsheet block and tackle. > > > > we welded up two hoops out of 50x50x6mm angle and rounded it by > > cutting slots,bending and rewelding. then welding the lot to the hull. > > > > The only problems we had was the hoops buckling (so we spent an hour > > welding more studs to it) and swapping the turfer to the other side > > once at the balance point (should have hired two turfers). Also as > > the hull was undecked we had some slight denting around the sheerline. > > > > It certainly saved Adrian heaps of money and didn't seem to scary or > > out of control. The turfer gives you precise control and was $au 20 > > to hire for the day. Lots of car tyres would help distribute the load. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5400|5365|2004-09-11 13:51:31|Gerd|Re: welding orgami boats|thanks all for the suggestions - yes we also used turfers years ago, in france, called them "tire fort"... we turned all the boats we build keel up, piles of tires, bracing et al. One "tire fort" to pull it over, one to hold it back, and then the same to lift it upright on the keel. The more adventorous types did it all with just a big forklift: simply push the hull on the tires, with proper temporary framing we never had any problems as long as you kept the dogs out from under it... Gerd the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5401|5237|2004-09-11 14:08:43|David K McComber|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|The closest thing that I have ever seen is the front 2 cylinders exhaust for an old VW. They were cooled by heating the car. I also saw a manifold on a 1920's or 30's truck that hade a heater of sorts cast into the manifold. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Henri Naths [mailto:c_hnaths@...] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust David Is there such a thing as a air cooled exhaust manifold? Just a brain fart.H ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 10 September, 2004 12:24 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust I had thought that CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c) were updates of the 1940 regulation that I mentioned earlier. If so something that was unchanged would not be repeated? All I know is that 99% of all boats have a water-cooled exhaust manifold, and I have seen many un cooled exhaust manifolds glowing read hot when the engine was working. It is more visible in the dark. I wouldn't own a boat without one. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). They break it down into passenger and non-passenger boats. In each group gas and diesel are subject to different regulations. In the section about diesel engines on non-passenger boats I don't see any thing about any water-cooling required. In fact they make the specific statement that an air-cooled diesel is permitted. There is NO REQUIREMENT FOR WATER COOLED MANAFOLDS. Unlike gas engines, which appear to require water-cooling with the exception of deck-mounted auxiliary units. Gas engines MUST be water cooled to meet the regulation on passenger boats caring more then 12 passengers for hire. Commercial boats less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers for hire may elect to use the ABYC standards and ignore this regulation altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. There is a difference in the requirements between a private, commercial boat not carrying paying passengers and a boat caring paying passengers. Unless I am misreading this or it has been superseded by new regulations it says no WATER COOLED manifolds are necessary on a diesel for private use. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5402|5402|2004-09-11 15:35:00|De Clarke|un-lurking: new origami boat owner|longtime lurker here. I've been following the list for a year or so now, thinking that I might acquire an origami boat. have been looking for "the boat to retire on" for about 4 years. the search has been complicated by my fondness for junk rig :-) as well as my limited financial resources and my attachment to honest and simple boats (not floating Winnebagos). pleased to say that I have managed to buy Evan Shaler's origami "copy" of China Cloud -- a boat whose construction, design, and character really appeal to me -- so am now an origami boat owner, though not a builder. I'm sure I'll have many questions to ask over the next year or several, and hope the knowledgeable folks on this list will have patience with a metal-boat newbie. anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and "join the club" as it were; also I remember there was some discussion about this boat earlier, some folks wanted to see pictures of her, etc. at the time the deal was still up in the air, and I didn't like to make any proprietorial statements; but I do have pictures from my survey visit, and if anyone is curious I can post the URL. I have one initial question: can I teach myself basic buzzbox welding by reading a book, watching a video, buying a buzzbox and learning by doing? or is it highly recommended to take a class and be instructed by a skilled practitioner, rather than rely on "book-larnin"? if there is a "bible of buzzbox" that every beginning welder should read, what would it be? I decided I should focus on buzzbox welding because it seems more portable and simple than lugging heavy tanks around, buzzboxes are fairly cheap, etc. I understand it's not the technology for very heavy welding work, only for lighter jobs like 10 gauge and pipe. but I think if welding were required on the heavier components of the hull I would prefer to hire a pro anyway. I'd just like to be able to repair a bent railing or a minor hull dent, or add an attachment point for rigging modifications -- that kind of stuff. seems like a buzzbox would be adequate for that kind of work, yes? de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 5403|5402|2004-09-11 16:14:56|brentswain38|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|De 90% 0f what you'll do in a welding school is practising burning rods. The rest you can get out of a book. You can teach yourself all you need to know with a book, buzzbox and a pile of scrap and rods.You can get the book out of the library. The buzzbox is all you'll ever need for any steel welding. We used a cheap miller 225 amp buzzbox at Great West Steel welding roof joists 24 hours a day.Heavier plate just requires more passes. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > longtime lurker here. I've been following the list for a year or so > now, thinking that I might acquire an origami boat. have been looking > for "the boat to retire on" for about 4 years. the search has been > complicated by my fondness for junk rig :-) as well as my limited financial > resources and my attachment to honest and simple boats (not floating > Winnebagos). > > pleased to say that I have managed to buy Evan Shaler's origami "copy" > of China Cloud -- a boat whose construction, design, and character > really appeal to me -- so am now an origami boat owner, though not a > builder. > > I'm sure I'll have many questions to ask over the next year or several, > and hope the knowledgeable folks on this list will have patience with > a metal-boat newbie. > > anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and "join the club" as it were; > also I remember there was some discussion about this boat earlier, some > folks wanted to see pictures of her, etc. at the time the deal was still > up in the air, and I didn't like to make any proprietorial statements; > but I do have pictures from my survey visit, and if anyone is curious > I can post the URL. > > I have one initial question: can I teach myself basic buzzbox welding > by reading a book, watching a video, buying a buzzbox and learning by > doing? or is it highly recommended to take a class and be instructed > by a skilled practitioner, rather than rely on "book-larnin"? if there > is a "bible of buzzbox" that every beginning welder should read, what > would it be? > > I decided I should focus on buzzbox welding because it seems more portable > and simple than lugging heavy tanks around, buzzboxes are fairly cheap, > etc. I understand it's not the technology for very heavy welding work, > only for lighter jobs like 10 gauge and pipe. but I think if welding > were required on the heavier components of the hull I would prefer to > hire a pro anyway. I'd just like to be able to repair a bent railing or > a minor hull dent, or add an attachment point for rigging modifications -- > that kind of stuff. seems like a buzzbox would be adequate for that kind > of work, yes? > > de > > -- > .................................................................... ......... > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: | 5404|5339|2004-09-11 16:18:28|brentswain38|Re: Port Townsend|John Hackett just launched a 36 footer he built himself last winter in Seattle. Unfortunatly he doesn't use the internet. Dale Deforest has a 36 he built in NE Olympia. There is a 31 footer there as well. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Richard > > Unfortuatly the only trials I've done are in my 96 vw > passat....road trip to > > Port Townsend.... total miles: 1970...cost $100.00 cn-- american > diesel, > > (more c-tane value than canadian diesel (so I'm told))car was > loaded with 4 > > adults and one baby, for my future boat it's a vw tdi 1.9 > > Do you have something in mind for an oil cooler? What is the > reduction on > > the Borg Warner and prop. size I think I see another road trip > coming up.lol > > Henri > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richard Till" > > To: > > Sent: 10 September, 2004 10:57 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > > > > > Henri, whats the news? Are you going to build? Did sea trials > for VW > > Borg > > > Warner combo on Sunday morning. Works OK. Need to install oil > cooler for > > > VW and mofify drive plate set-up. Still under budget. Floating > and well > > in > > > Sechelt. I have a spare rebuilt Borg Warner 71C for sale-- $1000; > a spare > > 47 > > > aluminum pole with shiv' box and base welded up for $1500 obo. > Also a > > spare > > > schd. 80 leading edge for a fin keel, cut to 1/2 free for the > asking. rt > > > > > > > > > >From: "Henri Naths" > > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:50:01 -0600 > > > > > > > >Brent, > > > >Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have e-mail address > (s) per > > > >chance? > > > >Henri. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: 09 September, 2004 2:53 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a > bone > > > > doctor ,was building one there. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hey all , > > > > > > > > > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port > Townsend. > > > > Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would > love to > > > > stop in next time around and check it out.. > > > > > Henri > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -------- > > --- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented > > Microsoft® > > > SmartScreen Technology. > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en- > ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar > ket_MSNIS_Taglines > > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and > get the > > > first two months FREE*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5405|5351|2004-09-11 16:21:48|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Info ???|I'll double check .I may not have done an interior for the 26 as most people have their own ideas and never follow the drawing. If not, I'll do one and sent it . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:31 -0000, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > Plans include hull lines, plate shape layout,scantlings materials > > list, deck layout and detail, mast and rigging, sailplan, interior > > layout, rigging detail.The profile is the same for single keels or > > twin keels. You could raise the aft part of the cabin for a > > wheelhouse . Winston did that for his trip thru thr NW passage, altho > > he over did it a bit. > > The only study plans are the drawings in the back of my book. > > Brent Swain > > Brent, can you let me know which page is supposed to have this > "interior layout" for the 26 footer? On the 5 sheets sent to me, > there is nothing that I recognize as interior layout. Is there a page > missing? I'd really like to get this information. Thanks. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5406|5351|2004-09-11 16:27:47|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Info ???|Winston Bushnell , after having done a circumnavigation , built one of my 36 footers and sailed it around the Pacific via Hawaii, the Marshall Islands, Carolines, Japan and the Aleutians. He sold that boat to build a 26 footer and sail it thru the NW passage, west to east in a single season. Two books on the story have been written by his crew members. He has since built another 36 footer and is cruising the BC coast. His daughter built a 26 footer . I'm not sure how many 26 footers have been built, probably less than a dozen. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" wrote: > Thanks for the answer ; who is Winston ? > Did a BS 26' did the NW passage or was that a larger boat ? > Is the "Wilson " Boat a single or twin keels BS 26' ? > Wich leave me with the question as written bellow : > How many BS 26' where or are being build today ? > Thanks for your time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Plans include hull lines, plate shape layout,scantlings > materials > > list, deck layout and detail, mast and rigging, sailplan, interior > > layout, rigging detail.The profile is the same for single keels or > > twin keels. You could raise the aft part of the cabin for a > > wheelhouse . Winston did that for his trip thru thr NW passage, > altho > > he over did it a bit. > > The only study plans are the drawings in the back of my book. > > Brent Swain > > > > > Dear Mister Swain , > > > > Your book arrived today and to be honnest I was a bit > surprised > > > > with the BS 26 information , you advised to buy the book for. > > > > May I refer to my mail from 1 Augustus to the Canadian > builder > > > > that offers that hull for sale and still does today : > > > > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/Pricing.htm > > > > How many BS 26 are there being build or where build today > ? > > > > > What must an interested customer do to obtain more info > > > > than available on page 114 of your book , especialy if he > > > > wants to place an order ? > > > > What are the salesconditions and delivery terms ? > > > > Is there any garantee on the work ?? > > > > I would consider > > > > it a real Reward to even see a decent > > > > presentation design , as usual in any boattransaction ? > > > > Thanks in advance for your time > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENTPascale > > > > > The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . > It's a > > > > > simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft > > with the single keeler. > The specs are all given in the bac of my book. > > > > > > The Postfix program > > > > > > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > > > > > > said: 553 5.3.0 > > > > > > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > > > > > > > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > > > > > > Aan: > > > > > > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir , > > > > > > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > > > > > > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > > > > > > with or without a pilothouse. > > > > > > Could you give me directions how to see the > > > > > > presentation or general plan > > > > > > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > > > > > > Thanks in advance . | 5407|5365|2004-09-11 16:48:36|Henri Naths|Re: welding orgami boats|Gary, I know there are many variations of turfers We had an ancient one (5 TON) that Noah must have used to build the ark, It took two grown men and a boy to carry it and ya the increments were not that good but the newer ones you could feather a load within a 1/8 of an inch of where you wanted it. Cheers, Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 11 September, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding orgami boats Ah, a grip winch! I bought one of those at an auction years ago in a large lot and it took me a bit to figure out what it was. They are commonly used for lifting scaffolding up the side of a building. They put one on each end. Since it just grips the cable the only limit to the length of pull is the length of the cable. Neat device. I believe we only used it once or twice. As I recall it's great limitation was that it moved in 2" increments. That was far too large for fine positioning. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding orgami boats > A turfer is a winch type mechhanisim in which a wire rope is passed thu and in increments of 2 or so inches,depending on the tonnage rating, the load can be raised or lowered.You have a handle of about 2 feet long (a piece of pipe)or so depending on the mechanical advantage you want, of coarse the longer the handle the more you can "turf"Like a come along but with wire rope. The nice thing about a turfer is you can use a snatch block and double the pulling power. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Courtney Thomas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 11 September, 2004 7:31 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: welding orgami boats > > > What's a turfer ? > > Thank you. > Courtney > > > Ben Tucker wrote: > > > Hi Gerd > > > > Yago is really coming along quick! I enjoyed your building guide. > > > > We rolled over my friends 29 foot steely in his backyard using a > > hired Turfer and my mainsheet block and tackle. > > > > we welded up two hoops out of 50x50x6mm angle and rounded it by > > cutting slots,bending and rewelding. then welding the lot to the hull. > > > > The only problems we had was the hoops buckling (so we spent an hour > > welding more studs to it) and swapping the turfer to the other side > > once at the balance point (should have hired two turfers). Also as > > the hull was undecked we had some slight denting around the sheerline. > > > > It certainly saved Adrian heaps of money and didn't seem to scary or > > out of control. The turfer gives you precise control and was $au 20 > > to hire for the day. Lots of car tyres would help distribute the load. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5408|5237|2004-09-11 16:49:29|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|VWs and Model T Fords had heaters that obtained heat from the exhaust manifolds. They didn't heat very well but would kill you pretty good. ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:08 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust The closest thing that I have ever seen is the front 2 cylinders exhaust for an old VW. They were cooled by heating the car. I also saw a manifold on a 1920's or 30's truck that hade a heater of sorts cast into the manifold. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Henri Naths [mailto:c_hnaths@...] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust David Is there such a thing as a air cooled exhaust manifold? Just a brain fart.H ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 10 September, 2004 12:24 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust I had thought that CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c) were updates of the 1940 regulation that I mentioned earlier. If so something that was unchanged would not be repeated? All I know is that 99% of all boats have a water-cooled exhaust manifold, and I have seen many un cooled exhaust manifolds glowing read hot when the engine was working. It is more visible in the dark. I wouldn't own a boat without one. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust David, Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). They break it down into passenger and non-passenger boats. In each group gas and diesel are subject to different regulations. In the section about diesel engines on non-passenger boats I don't see any thing about any water-cooling required. In fact they make the specific statement that an air-cooled diesel is permitted. There is NO REQUIREMENT FOR WATER COOLED MANAFOLDS. Unlike gas engines, which appear to require water-cooling with the exception of deck-mounted auxiliary units. Gas engines MUST be water cooled to meet the regulation on passenger boats caring more then 12 passengers for hire. Commercial boats less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers for hire may elect to use the ABYC standards and ignore this regulation altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. There is a difference in the requirements between a private, commercial boat not carrying paying passengers and a boat caring paying passengers. Unless I am misreading this or it has been superseded by new regulations it says no WATER COOLED manifolds are necessary on a diesel for private use. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5409|5339|2004-09-11 21:38:08|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Port Townsend|I went for a sail on Dale's boat. I was impressed how it tracked like a locomotive. His has a conventional aluminum mast. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 4:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend John Hackett just launched a 36 footer he built himself last winter in Seattle. Unfortunatly he doesn't use the internet. Dale Deforest has a 36 he built in NE Olympia. There is a 31 footer there as well. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Richard > > Unfortuatly the only trials I've done are in my 96 vw > passat....road trip to > > Port Townsend.... total miles: 1970...cost $100.00 cn-- american > diesel, > > (more c-tane value than canadian diesel (so I'm told))car was > loaded with 4 > > adults and one baby, for my future boat it's a vw tdi 1.9 > > Do you have something in mind for an oil cooler? What is the > reduction on > > the Borg Warner and prop. size I think I see another road trip > coming up.lol > > Henri > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richard Till" > > To: > > Sent: 10 September, 2004 10:57 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > > > > > Henri, whats the news? Are you going to build? Did sea trials > for VW > > Borg > > > Warner combo on Sunday morning. Works OK. Need to install oil > cooler for > > > VW and mofify drive plate set-up. Still under budget. Floating > and well > > in > > > Sechelt. I have a spare rebuilt Borg Warner 71C for sale-- $1000; > a spare > > 47 > > > aluminum pole with shiv' box and base welded up for $1500 obo. > Also a > > spare > > > schd. 80 leading edge for a fin keel, cut to 1/2 free for the > asking. rt > > > > > > > > > >From: "Henri Naths" > > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:50:01 -0600 > > > > > > > >Brent, > > > >Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have e-mail address > (s) per > > > >chance? > > > >Henri. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: 09 September, 2004 2:53 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Port Townsend > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg was building a 36 in Dauby's yard. Tristan McGovern ,a > bone > > > > doctor ,was building one there. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hey all , > > > > > > > > > > I ,/ we just did a two day tour of Jefferson co. Port > Townsend. > > > > Loved it.... anybody building a origamiboat there????would > love to > > > > stop in next time around and check it out.. > > > > > Henri > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -------- > > --- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > > >Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented > > Microsoft® > > > SmartScreen Technology. > > > > > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en- > ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar > ket_MSNIS_Taglines > > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and > get the > > > first two months FREE*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 5410|5402|2004-09-11 21:42:14|Brent Geery|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:34:54 -0700, De Clarke wrote: > I have one initial question: can I teach myself basic buzzbox welding > by reading a book, watching a video, buying a buzzbox and learning by > doing? or is it highly recommended to take a class and be instructed > by a skilled practitioner, rather than rely on "book-larnin"? if there > is a "bible of buzzbox" that every beginning welder should read, what > would it be? > > I decided I should focus on buzzbox welding because it seems more portable > and simple than lugging heavy tanks around, buzzboxes are fairly cheap, > etc. I understand it's not the technology for very heavy welding work, > only for lighter jobs like 10 gauge and pipe. but I think if welding > were required on the heavier components of the hull I would prefer to > hire a pro anyway. I'd just like to be able to repair a bent railing or > a minor hull dent, or add an attachment point for rigging modifications -- > that kind of stuff. seems like a buzzbox would be adequate for that kind > of work, yes? Welcome! The US Army has a welding manual 9-237 that you can download and read. HTML version is at http://www.machinist.org/army_welding/ There is also a PDF version out there, but I can't find a current source for it. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5411|5402|2004-09-11 23:56:34|fmichael graham|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|De: Congratulations! I was just gawking at the Junk in the Boat Journal for the millionth time, earlier today, and would very much like to see more photos. I would recommend that you take an introductory course in welding or have a welder tutor you. Stick welding is an art, if you want a professional-quality product. you are not as limited as you might think when using an AC welder. Keep up the posts! Green with envy, Mike De Clarke wrote: longtime lurker here. I've been following the list for a year or so now, thinking that I might acquire an origami boat. have been looking for "the boat to retire on" for about 4 years. the search has been complicated by my fondness for junk rig :-) as well as my limited financial resources and my attachment to honest and simple boats (not floating Winnebagos). pleased to say that I have managed to buy Evan Shaler's origami "copy" of China Cloud -- a boat whose construction, design, and character really appeal to me -- so am now an origami boat owner, though not a builder. I'm sure I'll have many questions to ask over the next year or several, and hope the knowledgeable folks on this list will have patience with a metal-boat newbie. anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and "join the club" as it were; also I remember there was some discussion about this boat earlier, some folks wanted to see pictures of her, etc. at the time the deal was still up in the air, and I didn't like to make any proprietorial statements; but I do have pictures from my survey visit, and if anyone is curious I can post the URL. I have one initial question: can I teach myself basic buzzbox welding by reading a book, watching a video, buying a buzzbox and learning by doing? or is it highly recommended to take a class and be instructed by a skilled practitioner, rather than rely on "book-larnin"? if there is a "bible of buzzbox" that every beginning welder should read, what would it be? I decided I should focus on buzzbox welding because it seems more portable and simple than lugging heavy tanks around, buzzboxes are fairly cheap, etc. I understand it's not the technology for very heavy welding work, only for lighter jobs like 10 gauge and pipe. but I think if welding were required on the heavier components of the hull I would prefer to hire a pro anyway. I'd just like to be able to repair a bent railing or a minor hull dent, or add an attachment point for rigging modifications -- that kind of stuff. seems like a buzzbox would be adequate for that kind of work, yes? de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5412|5402|2004-09-12 03:02:44|Henri Naths|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|De When I first starting welding with a buzz box I ask a welder for a few tips . He said " It's like bobbing for french fries but other than that it gets the job done" After welding for about a year, I found that everybody has a slight twist to the methods, metallurgy information and just about any other pertinent facts. After a while you don't know who to believe. I found it to be in my best interest to take the course. I had some very good teachers and it was certainly worth the time and effort. It 's a personal choice, if you want the confidence that you can actually take two separate pieces of metal and actually remake them into one piece with all the original tensile strength, understand the mechanical process, the metallurgy involved, mechanical engineering, joint configuration, fabrication technology and techniques,stress, strain vibrational loading and fatigue and when you walk away from a weld you've done you know 100% and to the people that love you and trust you, you can say "ya that weld is good for 40,000 lbs," than ya take a course. But if none of the above interest you, you can listen and actually pay someone to spout off their concept of the physics involved. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: De Clarke To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 11 September, 2004 1:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] un-lurking: new origami boat owner longtime lurker here. I've been following the list for a year or so now, thinking that I might acquire an origami boat. have been looking for "the boat to retire on" for about 4 years. the search has been complicated by my fondness for junk rig :-) as well as my limited financial resources and my attachment to honest and simple boats (not floating Winnebagos). pleased to say that I have managed to buy Evan Shaler's origami "copy" of China Cloud -- a boat whose construction, design, and character really appeal to me -- so am now an origami boat owner, though not a builder. I'm sure I'll have many questions to ask over the next year or several, and hope the knowledgeable folks on this list will have patience with a metal-boat newbie. anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and "join the club" as it were; also I remember there was some discussion about this boat earlier, some folks wanted to see pictures of her, etc. at the time the deal was still up in the air, and I didn't like to make any proprietorial statements; but I do have pictures from my survey visit, and if anyone is curious I can post the URL. I have one initial question: can I teach myself basic buzzbox welding by reading a book, watching a video, buying a buzzbox and learning by doing? or is it highly recommended to take a class and be instructed by a skilled practitioner, rather than rely on "book-larnin"? if there is a "bible of buzzbox" that every beginning welder should read, what would it be? I decided I should focus on buzzbox welding because it seems more portable and simple than lugging heavy tanks around, buzzboxes are fairly cheap, etc. I understand it's not the technology for very heavy welding work, only for lighter jobs like 10 gauge and pipe. but I think if welding were required on the heavier components of the hull I would prefer to hire a pro anyway. I'd just like to be able to repair a bent railing or a minor hull dent, or add an attachment point for rigging modifications -- that kind of stuff. seems like a buzzbox would be adequate for that kind of work, yes? de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5413|5365|2004-09-12 03:34:38|Ben Tucker|Re: welding orgami boats|Hi, sorry should have clarifed that The turfers we used for rolling adrains boat and also the ones we used on the square riggers to speed up putting all those sticks in there proper places had extremly good control, mm by mm in up and down if you wanted it. Cheers Ben| 5414|5402|2004-09-12 03:45:40|Ben Tucker|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|Hi De She looks like a great boat and I would love to see any photos and info you have of her. I have been learning to weld and found proper classes to be very useful, and cheap, They get you on the right track fast without learning bad habits and when your weld looks like birdshit there is someone to ask why. Take you own project in, Most intructors love to have something interesting going on and will let you use all the fancy tools in their workshop. I ended up getting a tiny inverter DC welder but started with a Kmart Buzzbox. The only reason I upgraded was beacause the Buzzbox hated the long extension leads I had to use to reach the boat, and its duty cycle was pathetic. I did a course on MIG but prefered the stick welder. Cheers Ben| 5415|5415|2004-09-12 05:11:42|normanbywaite|finances query|Hi Folks, Lurker Matt here. I've just finished reading (in almost one sitting) Brent Swain's book, and my imagination is running in high gear as to what, when, and how i'll build meself an origami boat. A great read, perhaps revolutionary, and i must thank you, Mr Swain. But every time i set myself to planning/daydreaming, a nasty wave of reality-gloom comes over the picture. And this chunk of reality is made of money. So my question to you, those who have possibly had to re-jig their lives in order to pursue the cruising dream, is how did you pay for it? More specifically, does anyone have any tips for getting started, for a big city, appartment dwelling, office working, keen-yet-frustrated aspiring BS boat builder? I mean, if i have to rent a building space (which seems likely) then if the project takes a few years part-time, the rent costs will escalate alarmingly. How did you get going? Did you have to re-jig your career &/or family so you could devote yourself to part-time building? Or did you sell some piece of property, semi-retire, and go full-time a-building? Did you move from your white-collar life in a city to something more rural in order to get the 'quiet' to build? My armchair voyaging has been enjoyable, but has thus far resulted in nothing more than an un-scratched itch, and a large nautical library, but in all my reading i've discovered the cruising books to be maddeningly short of details of finance. Surely this subject is no longer taboo. How the hell does one afford to cruise ten months of the year, is simply a matter of big investments? Please, i'd be grateful for tips on how to re-jig my life so i can spend the time and money on boat building, and then have the warewithall to go cruising. Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia.| 5416|5416|2004-09-12 09:37:26|audeojude|military welding manual pdf|here is a link to the pdf's you can download for that military manual. It took me a couple minutes to find as most ways of downloading them from the military site now require a user account. http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/query/download/TC+9-237| 5417|5415|2004-09-12 11:08:52|fenixrises|Re: finances query|Hi Matt, If you plan to build your own boat there is one thing you must do first. Make an honest assessment of your talent or skills as a tool user. It seems that many people reading these posts and building their own boats possess these abilities. As trite as it may sound there are as many different ways to finance the dream as there are people living the dream. If you are an hourly wage earner or a salaried employee and your income level is not substancial then you must do everything possible to minimize your expenses. If you own a car, could you get by with a moped or bicycle. To build your initital "kick off" nest egg you may even consider an additional part time job. I think it is wise to always retain a cash reserve. If you are living in an apartment and need a commercial type property to build your boat then consider finding a site where you can live as well as build. If you can find a place to build and live at the same time you will cut out commute time and expense. Living where your boat is built means that you have a place to put all the stuff you start collecting. You can start your boat by researching where you can find materials and parts. If you get a decent sized nest egg to start out with you can often take advantage of good deals on materials or parts. One of the great things about Brent's boats and the way they are built is the ability to premake many of the smaller items. If you take a welding course at a local education facility you can often use their equipment to make many of the small items you need. Always look for good deals on used tools for your project. If you have cash money in your pocket you can often buy good used tools for less than half their new price. There are many similar things you can do to increase your asset/cost ratio. To finance long term cruising there are many things that can be done. One of the best is residual income. Something that you create once and sell many times. This is often intellectual property, books, computer programs, music, boat plans etc. Another good idea is owning a rental property, the monthly rental fee will give you a small but steady income stream. The invesment market these days is not very good. Guaranteed income from finacial investments in not very strong as interest rates are low. After you have finished your boat you will have developed many different skills that you can market to other sailors or local people. Examples. I was offered a job building wooden docks at one of the atolls in the Tuamotus. This I turned down as I was in cruising mode. While in Papeete I did some fiberglass repairs on the boat next me. In American Samoa I replaced a generator set in one boat, did some basic woodworking on one of the native aluminum fishing boats, repaired a lot of storm damage to a house, wired an new house for the manager of one of the canning plants and wired an addition on another house. A person with good sense and building skills can often find work as they cruise. Of course you must be careful about local work restrictions etc. I met two different Italians who were delivery skippers. One had financed his entire boat project by doing deliveries and was then happily cruising with his new bride. The other was a skipper on a big cruising catamaran taking it from Acapulco to Papeete. The owner would fly out to the boat from time to time to cruise the area where the boat was located. The skipper was building his boat building nest egg while sailing the world, not a bad deal. I met an elderly Dutch couple in the Marquesas on a large ketch. The husband was an artist who painted in watercolors. He was often commisioned to paint a boat at anchor in an idyllic setting for the boat owner. He was also able to sell his paintings to local people. I met an American guy in Papeete who worked as a big tug captain in Hawaii. He had developed a new part that the company he worked for needed. He made a big lump sum for the idea and got a small residual income from its use. The Hiscocks and Pardeys are well known for their writing. Larry Pardey is also a master shipright and used his skills to generate additinal income while cruising. There are no limitations on what is possible. Be creative, inventive and resourceful as many small boat sailors already are, then you will go sailing. Fred --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Hi Folks, > Lurker Matt here. I've just finished reading (in almost one sitting) > Brent Swain's book, and my imagination is running in high gear as to > what, when, and how i'll build meself an origami boat. A great read, > perhaps revolutionary, and i must thank you, Mr Swain. > But every time i set myself to planning/daydreaming, a nasty wave of > reality-gloom comes over the picture. And this chunk of reality is > made of money. > So my question to you, those who have possibly had to re-jig their > lives in order to pursue the cruising dream, is how did you pay for > it? > More specifically, does anyone have any tips for getting started, for > a big city, appartment dwelling, office working, keen-yet- frustrated > aspiring BS boat builder? > I mean, if i have to rent a building space (which seems likely) then > if the project takes a few years part-time, the rent costs will > escalate alarmingly. > How did you get going? Did you have to re-jig your career &/or family > so you could devote yourself to part-time building? Or did you sell > some piece of property, semi-retire, and go full-time a-building? Did > you move from your white-collar life in a city to something more > rural in order to get the 'quiet' to build? > My armchair voyaging has been enjoyable, but has thus far resulted in > nothing more than an un-scratched itch, and a large nautical library, > but in all my reading i've discovered the cruising books to be > maddeningly short of details of finance. > Surely this subject is no longer taboo. > How the hell does one afford to cruise ten months of the year, is > simply a matter of big investments? > Please, i'd be grateful for tips on how to re-jig my life so i can > spend the time and money on boat building, and then have the > warewithall to go cruising. > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, Australia. | 5418|5415|2004-09-12 11:36:38|Robert Gainer|Re: finances query|Matt, I have arranged it in the past so that I worked in a boatyard, which made storage and working space affordable. I made money on the trips by repairing boats, teaching navigation and taking people out on rides. In the resort towns, I did lectures on the trips and sailing at the hotels. I also did delivers and sold photos that I took and developed on board the boat. If you want to do it there are many ways to finance to trip. I am in the boat building and rigging business so I can combine the two things and finance the sailing with no problem at all. All the best, Robert Gainer >From: "normanbywaite" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] finances query >Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:11:40 -0000 > >Hi Folks, >Lurker Matt here. I've just finished reading (in almost one sitting) >Brent Swain's book, and my imagination is running in high gear as to >what, when, and how i'll build meself an origami boat. A great read, >perhaps revolutionary, and i must thank you, Mr Swain. >But every time i set myself to planning/daydreaming, a nasty wave of >reality-gloom comes over the picture. And this chunk of reality is >made of money. >So my question to you, those who have possibly had to re-jig their >lives in order to pursue the cruising dream, is how did you pay for >it? >More specifically, does anyone have any tips for getting started, for >a big city, appartment dwelling, office working, keen-yet-frustrated >aspiring BS boat builder? >I mean, if i have to rent a building space (which seems likely) then >if the project takes a few years part-time, the rent costs will >escalate alarmingly. >How did you get going? Did you have to re-jig your career &/or family >so you could devote yourself to part-time building? Or did you sell >some piece of property, semi-retire, and go full-time a-building? Did >you move from your white-collar life in a city to something more >rural in order to get the 'quiet' to build? >My armchair voyaging has been enjoyable, but has thus far resulted in >nothing more than an un-scratched itch, and a large nautical library, >but in all my reading i've discovered the cruising books to be >maddeningly short of details of finance. >Surely this subject is no longer taboo. >How the hell does one afford to cruise ten months of the year, is >simply a matter of big investments? >Please, i'd be grateful for tips on how to re-jig my life so i can >spend the time and money on boat building, and then have the >warewithall to go cruising. >Cheers, >Matt >Melbourne, Australia. > > _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/| 5419|5415|2004-09-12 14:33:58|fmichael graham|Re: finances query|Matt: The members from your neck of the woods will have more to offer in the way of answers, but here is my two bits worth: Your going about this the right way, planning ahead before straining the purse strings. You have the opportunity to price out your equipment & materials, & make decisions on where to build, prefered welding/finishing processes, etc. Perhaps, buying a small lot outside of town may be the answer. Some builders have the luxury of a shop, but many have built out-of-doors, with or without temporary cover. If you look in the photos section, you will see that one builder put his boat together beside his house. Maybe you have a relative or friend who wouldn't mind you using his/her property for construction. I have an old friend in Melbourne, Eric Nagle, who may be able to help you out - a very resourceful guy - just look him up in the directory & tell him that Canadian Mike from Davao City suggested you call. The only way you'll be able to accurately assess the financial damages is to source out everything now. Actually, you will find it to be an enjoyable exercise. You don't have to quit your job to build. You only have to abandon your family, temporarily, or get them involved. If you want to go cruising on a budget, you will figure out how to acomplish this. One consideration is to join the "low cost voyaging" group (yahoo), where achieving this goal is a premier topic and there seem to be tidbits of wisdom for the asking. Personally, I am holding off until I take early retirement and will then be building in Davao or Cebu (Philippines). Although some members may feel that an expose on financing off-shore cruising is off topic, I'd like to see a few members step forward with their stories. For instance, as you'd be coming from Aus, you could teach english in most asian countries to build up the cruising kitty. Make sure you don't go to one which requires a carat for your boat, though. I met a lot of cruisers whom had developed skills in sail repair, diesel engine mechanics, etc., and were run off their feet by yachties without the knowledge. Most expats seem to favour the labour of their own kind than using the local talent, due to the floating market atmosphere that "joe americano" is faced with. Good Luck, Mike Graham normanbywaite wrote: Hi Folks, Lurker Matt here. I've just finished reading (in almost one sitting) Brent Swain's book, and my imagination is running in high gear as to what, when, and how i'll build meself an origami boat. A great read, perhaps revolutionary, and i must thank you, Mr Swain. But every time i set myself to planning/daydreaming, a nasty wave of reality-gloom comes over the picture. And this chunk of reality is made of money. So my question to you, those who have possibly had to re-jig their lives in order to pursue the cruising dream, is how did you pay for it? More specifically, does anyone have any tips for getting started, for a big city, appartment dwelling, office working, keen-yet-frustrated aspiring BS boat builder? I mean, if i have to rent a building space (which seems likely) then if the project takes a few years part-time, the rent costs will escalate alarmingly. How did you get going? Did you have to re-jig your career &/or family so you could devote yourself to part-time building? Or did you sell some piece of property, semi-retire, and go full-time a-building? Did you move from your white-collar life in a city to something more rural in order to get the 'quiet' to build? My armchair voyaging has been enjoyable, but has thus far resulted in nothing more than an un-scratched itch, and a large nautical library, but in all my reading i've discovered the cruising books to be maddeningly short of details of finance. Surely this subject is no longer taboo. How the hell does one afford to cruise ten months of the year, is simply a matter of big investments? Please, i'd be grateful for tips on how to re-jig my life so i can spend the time and money on boat building, and then have the warewithall to go cruising. Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5420|5420|2004-09-12 17:34:33|Mike|Welding of steel boats|To all: I have been giving some thought to the welding of steel boats and thought that I might make a few points for the uninitiated to consider. If anyone feels that I have left anything out or erred in a suggestion, please make subsequent corrections. First; welding is not "hoodoo voodoo", as my wife would say. A properly welded joint on low-carbon steel, with proper pre & post welding preparation will result in a weld that shares the strength of the parent metal. As I have not yet bought plans from Brent Swain, I do not know if he specifies plate preparation/fit-up, weld requirements, & post-weld processes, so, forgive me if any comments made here are superfluous. Some of us, such as myself, may be building in a country that produces steel of less than standard quality. Others may be using recycled steel. Therefore, prior to welding, the joint area should be prepared; 1)using degreasing agents, if dirty, oily, greasy 2)with a grinder with a wire brush attachment to remove oxidized surface/zinc coatings/etc. . Pay close attention to pitted areas. When full penetration is a requirement(and it almost always is) there must be consideration of a suitable root gap and back-grinding or gouging. To do otherwise can compromise the weld strength, resulting in an inferior product. Because of the thin plate used in the construction of these boats and the forces that these welded joints will be under, undercut is an important consideration. Those who plan to weld with low-hydrogen electrodes must take care to keep their rods heated & away from any moisture. Although the majority of welds may be in the flat & horizontal positions, there will be a requirement for vertical & overhead welds and, therefore, the welder must be competent at welding in all positions. After welding, the surface bead should be ground flush for a smooth finish. grinding, due to the heat generated, can alter the structure of metal and cause an otherwise sound weld to be compromised. Therefore, grinding should not be so intense as to alter the colour of the metal(you don't want to see purple/blue metal). Just as important, the grinding pattern should be across the weld, not along it's length. After grinding, the affected area should be coated with an oxidation inhibitor. Hope this is useful to someone. Regards, Mike| 5421|5421|2004-09-12 18:10:21|sae140|Manifolds|As there's been some interest re: manifolds recently, I've posted a couple of pics on OrigamiBoats2/photos/manifolds showing two different commercial approaches to water-cooled manifold design. The first pic is of a one-piece manifold (for a Ford Lehman) in which the air inlets pass through the water-jacket along with the exhaust pipes. The second pic is of an 'exhaust only' water-cooled manifold (for a Perkins). The inlet manifold (not shown) is a separate unit fitting below it. Both of these designs appear to suffer from the same design fault as that seen in the vast majority of marine engines - that in the event of a failure of the water-jacket, it is possible that water will simply empty by gravity from the jacket and/or header tank into the cylinder(s) via any open exhaust valve. Contrast this with the third pic which is a scan from Nigel Warren's book. His design is "fail-safe", in the sense that any leakage from the manifold's water-jacket will either drip into the bilges or exhaust pipe, rather than into the cylinders. It occurs to me that the capacity of the exhaust pipe could usefully be used to set an upper limit for the capacity of the header tank fitted in a fresh- water system, which in this design is located separately from the water jacket. Colin| 5422|5415|2004-09-12 18:15:41|Jim Phillips|Re: finances query|G'day Matt, This is Jim from Brisbane. In response to your questions about financing the cruising dream, I think you really first have to ask yourself if you want to go cruising or if you want to go boat building. If you want the former, then you should forget about building your own boat as this will cost you more $$ than just going out and buying a decent used boat. But, more importantly, it will save you years of work, effort and stress. If you are determined to build your own boat, you should realise that this is not for financial reasons, but something akin to spritual. When I was a child, my father bought a steel hull in Newcastle, NSW, we plonked a motor in it and brought it up to Brisbane, where he fitted it out and off we went - 3 years to sail around the world. In our late 20s, in 2000, my wife and I used a different method. We simply flew to Florida, rented a car and spent one week looking at boats that we had found on the internet. In less than 10 days from our arrival, we had bought a 30' steel cutter. And then started on repairs - new gearbox, new water tanks, exterior sand blast, new paint job etc. We went thru one month of long days battling the sandflies in a mangrove swamp-encircled boatyard doing the repairs. And battling the insiduous invitations for beers from well-meaning boaties who were determined to divert us from our goal. They laughed at our goal of one month for repairs - "you'll be here for at least a year, pal." So, a month later, we splashed the boat and then a few days later headed south. Over the following year we sailed to Cuba, Bahamas, Jamaica, Caymans, Mexico and back to the US (where we met the same people from the year before, in the same boatyard, working on the same boats and dreaming the same dreams - it was like groundhog day). Anyway, we had gotten pregnant, so we sold the boat, traded-up for a little boy and are now back in the rat race for a while. Lucky we went while we could! You never know when a disease will strike or situations will change. So you have to do these things while you still can. Anyway, the purchase cost for the boat was US$7500, spent $3000 in repairs, another $7000 or $8000 for the year and then we sold the boat for what we paid for it. The boat cost was remarkably cheap, because Americans turn up their noses at steel (they prefer plastic) and the previous Swiss owner was desperate to sell. So, in summary, do you want a cheap steel boat to do some cruising? Or do you want to spend years of heart-break, years of your youth, building a boat with the hope that one day you will go cruising? If the answer is #1, then go buy a boat and I'll expect to see you cruising north past here next year. We live on Russell Island with a jetty out the front of the house, so you're welcome to moor there. If the answer is #2, go to a DIY boatyard in Melbourne and start asking those builders how many years they have been at it, how many are left to go, whether their long term relationships have survived and whether they still think the cost in dollars and time is worth it. And then, if you are still determined to build, change your living arrangements to a large block and start building. If you really want to go cruising, money is not a barrier. From someone who has done it and also talked to many wanna-bes in various boatyards, marinas and bars, the barrier always seems to be attitude or unrealistic expectations. Best of luck, mate, Jim. PS. BTW, my old man is still sailing, still with a steel boat. www.wallabycreek.com normanbywaite wrote: Hi Folks, Lurker Matt here. I've just finished reading (in almost one sitting) Brent Swain's book, and my imagination is running in high gear as to what, when, and how i'll build meself an origami boat. A great read, perhaps revolutionary, and i must thank you, Mr Swain. But every time i set myself to planning/daydreaming, a nasty wave of reality-gloom comes over the picture. And this chunk of reality is made of money. So my question to you, those who have possibly had to re-jig their lives in order to pursue the cruising dream, is how did you pay for it? More specifically, does anyone have any tips for getting started, for a big city, appartment dwelling, office working, keen-yet-frustrated aspiring BS boat builder? I mean, if i have to rent a building space (which seems likely) then if the project takes a few years part-time, the rent costs will escalate alarmingly. How did you get going? Did you have to re-jig your career &/or family so you could devote yourself to part-time building? Or did you sell some piece of property, semi-retire, and go full-time a-building? Did you move from your white-collar life in a city to something more rural in order to get the 'quiet' to build? My armchair voyaging has been enjoyable, but has thus far resulted in nothing more than an un-scratched itch, and a large nautical library, but in all my reading i've discovered the cruising books to be maddeningly short of details of finance. Surely this subject is no longer taboo. How the hell does one afford to cruise ten months of the year, is simply a matter of big investments? Please, i'd be grateful for tips on how to re-jig my life so i can spend the time and money on boat building, and then have the warewithall to go cruising. Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5423|5402|2004-09-12 19:14:58|sae140|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|I think Brent and others have more-or-less covered the welding advice - I'd just add that 30 mins spent with either a pro or someone really experienced - even just to show you how to strike an arc and lay down a bead, including the right sound to aim for - would pay huge dividends. Books are good, but you really can't beat watching a first-class welder at work, and then trying it yourself. Personally I wouldn't bother with courses unless you want to chase certificates, as they can be 5% instruction, 95% repetition - which you could just as easily do at home. Buzz-boxes are ideal for the heavy stuff, say 3 mm upwards - you can easily weld half inch steel with multiple passes. Generally speaking, Mig is used for thinner metal, and Tig for the lightest of all (some guys can even weld aluminium foil together, and razor blades edge-to-edge with Tig - just to show off), although there are other reasons for choice of plant. I like Mike's recent comment about welding not being "hoodoo voodoo" - well, maybe it isn't for those who can weld ok, but I spent 40-odd years of my life thinking just that. 30 mins instruction from an expert dispelled that myth. Being able to weld is a lot more use than solving quadratic equations, or conjugating weird French verbs, and I do so wish that they'd taught me welding back at school instead of that stuff ! Best of luck with the boat: I'd really like to hear how she handles under various weather conditions, in due course. Colin| 5424|5402|2004-09-12 20:03:12|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|I gave some advice once about welding and later that day got an e-mail saying that I shouldn't be giving advice. That is, since I had welded in a factory and factories just have wire burners not real weldors, like the big boys. More than 40 years ago while in the military I signed up for welding classes at the Junior Collage. The instructor arrived in a new truck with a fancy Lincoln welding machine in the back. Turned out he was a pipeline weldor. I went to the classes for one year and had the opportunity to weld with the most modern machines of the day. We did everything from heating two pieces of steel in the forge and pounding them together to TIG welding. Yes, a great deal of the time was spent practicing. However, I was practicing on a MIG one day a week, a duel shield another day, a squirt can the next day. I also had the chance to weld with all kinds of different weld rods, including aluminum and cast iron. Maybe you don't need to know all that stuff but it launched my career and got my foot in the door. It also taught me that I didn't want to be a weldor the rest of my life. So, here comes the advice. For those folks wasting your time setting in front of some kind of tube, or in a potentially hazards job like I had at that time. Pay the small price for the course, use the trade schools electricity, use their modern machines, use the unlimited rods provided by them, the smoke ejectors, the space age helmets, and the nice clean steel chunks that keep showing up at their door step. You might even meet some nice folks in class and strike up an interesting conversation now and then. Then again I sure will not disagree that a person with average intelligence and motor skills can learn how to weld out in the garage. Good Luck Gerald| 5425|5415|2004-09-12 22:40:23|normanbywaite|Re: finances query|Wow, what a wealth of responses, thanks. To Jim, Yep, i think the building itself has almost as much appeal as the cruising. Maybe that'll change when i do get around to the building. To Fred, many thanks for your frankness. As a 38 year old, i've had many different occupations. I started my working life as a trainee electrical engineer, so i do know which end of a hammer is which. Twenty years later and i recently finished accountant qualifications at Universtity. The desire to be an accountant was born from a desire to be self employed, with a modest little accounting practice. Small Business in this country is under a huge burden from our (half) elected bureaucrats, and a militant urge in me wants to help them - and make some money along the way. I have had a number of small business ventures myself, some rather successful, one (the most recent) spectacularly unsuccessfull. So the coffers are a little dry. I have toyed with the idea of having my practice, which requires little in the way of passing foot traffic, in an industrial area, with space for the boat building project. Anyhow, thanks for all the food for thought. For now, i can get much done in the way of planning, before actually 'launching' the project. I'll keep everyone posted, unless people think my posts are too off- topic. Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia| 5426|5421|2004-09-13 06:20:28|Ben Tucker|Re: Manifolds|Hi colin What else did nigel warren have to say about the nesscesity of water cooled manifolds? Have read his great book awhile back but can't get hold of it again. Cheers Ben| 5427|5415|2004-09-13 06:27:10|Ben Tucker|Re: finances query|Hi matt Start living as cheap as you can now. And do as much sailing as you can before you start building. Buying a cheap steel boat and living on it saves around 4-5 grand a year. Caravans are also cheap to live in. Read gerds manual where he talks about doing some sailing before you start building. Good luck Ben| 5428|5428|2004-09-13 12:42:32|Richard Till|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|Brent, At 22 yrs. I decided to go pipline welding. I sought out the best instructor in the country to obtain API 1104 certification and become coded. He gave me a small pamphlet to read about pipelines and turned me lose on a pile of 36" pipe coupons. The words he left me with have stuck: "this is the basic technique, but I can't teach you how to weld--only you can do that." Over the next 5 months I hardly ever saw the man, just did more of what worked and left out what didn't work until the welds were consistent and to code. I got a job pipeline welding. Now I am a welding instructor and the same approach applies--I can't teach anyone to weld . . . . rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner >Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:14:50 -0000 > >De > 90% 0f what you'll do in a welding school is practising burning >rods. The rest you can get out of a book. You can teach yourself all >you need to know with a book, buzzbox and a pile of scrap and >rods.You can get the book out of the library. The buzzbox is all >you'll ever need for any steel welding. We used a cheap miller 225 >amp buzzbox at Great West Steel welding roof joists 24 hours a >day.Heavier plate just requires more passes. > Brent Swain > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > > > longtime lurker here. I've been following the list for a year or so > > now, thinking that I might acquire an origami boat. have been >looking > > for "the boat to retire on" for about 4 years. the search has been > > complicated by my fondness for junk rig :-) as well as my limited >financial > > resources and my attachment to honest and simple boats (not floating > > Winnebagos). > > > > pleased to say that I have managed to buy Evan Shaler's >origami "copy" > > of China Cloud -- a boat whose construction, design, and character > > really appeal to me -- so am now an origami boat owner, though not >a > > builder. > > > > I'm sure I'll have many questions to ask over the next year or >several, > > and hope the knowledgeable folks on this list will have patience >with > > a metal-boat newbie. > > > > anyway, just wanted to introduce myself and "join the club" as it >were; > > also I remember there was some discussion about this boat earlier, >some > > folks wanted to see pictures of her, etc. at the time the deal >was still > > up in the air, and I didn't like to make any proprietorial >statements; > > but I do have pictures from my survey visit, and if anyone is >curious > > I can post the URL. > > > > I have one initial question: can I teach myself basic buzzbox >welding > > by reading a book, watching a video, buying a buzzbox and learning >by > > doing? or is it highly recommended to take a class and be >instructed > > by a skilled practitioner, rather than rely on "book-larnin"? if >there > > is a "bible of buzzbox" that every beginning welder should read, >what > > would it be? > > > > I decided I should focus on buzzbox welding because it seems more >portable > > and simple than lugging heavy tanks around, buzzboxes are fairly >cheap, > > etc. I understand it's not the technology for very heavy welding >work, > > only for lighter jobs like 10 gauge and pipe. but I think if >welding > > were required on the heavier components of the hull I would prefer >to > > hire a pro anyway. I'd just like to be able to repair a bent >railing or > > a minor hull dent, or add an attachment point for rigging >modifications -- > > that kind of stuff. seems like a buzzbox would be adequate for >that kind > > of work, yes? > > > > de > > > > -- > > .................................................................... >......... > > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick >Observatory, UCSC: > > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get >rid : > > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt >Vonnegut : > > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA >B9C9 E76E: > _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft� SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5429|5421|2004-09-13 12:56:17|sae140|Re: Manifolds|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi colin > > What else did nigel warren have to say about the nesscesity of water > cooled manifolds? Have read his great book awhile back but can't get > hold of it again. > > Cheers > > Ben Hi Ben Nigel Warren writes: EXHAUST MANIFOLD This item may or may not be necessary. The factors are the types of engine, the flow of air (if any) over the exhaust manifold, and the speed the engine is to run at. If the engine is completely boxed in and is to produce it's full horsepower, then the manifold, if not cooled, will become red hot. On the other hand, many successful conversions utilising less than the full power of the engine do not have a water-cooled manifold, but rely upon a flow of air and safety precautions such as asbestos tape on the exhaust pipe and a sheet of asbestos on the inside of the engine box alongside the manifold. The original fan can be retained (with the proviso about aluminium pump housings, and with a guard fitted) to create a flow of air. Alternatively, a smaller diameter fan specially made up can be fitted, vee-belt driven at a faster speed than the crankshaft, and situated directly in line with the manifold. A commercially made water-cooled manifold is a rather expensive item but is one which can be added fairly easily later on if, after trials, you consider that it is necessary. If you have suitable workshop equipment a water-cooled manifold can be fabricated (6). Firms producing manifolds are listed in the Appendix. He then proceeds to talk about exhaust water injection and exhaust pipes. (6) refers to the diagram already posted. In case it's of interest, Nick Skeates has used a 1000cc aluminium horizontally opposed twin "Bradford" petrol engine in his Wylo-II for the last 20 or so years. He writes: The exhaust system is dry, uncooled, and lagged with asbestos. I made it up from galvanised pipe, with welded joints, and it exits through the transom a little above the waterline. The pipe loops up high to prevent water running into the engine, but for additional protection I fitted a gate valve near the transom which I always keep closed when not running the engine. I feel that water entering the exhaust system is one of the prime causes of marine engine trouble, especially in salt water use. Even if no water actually reaches the engine, the damp salty conditions inside the pipe must inevitably rust the exhaust valves and their seats, resulting in poor compression and difficult starting. The common practice of a water- injected exhaust can only increase this problem: certainly such an engine I used to own had surprisingly rusty exhaust valves on inspection. It might be worth mentioning to the younger members that although both of these extracts make reference to asbestos lagging, this was a material in very common use in Britain and elsewhere back in the early 1980's. Regards Colin| 5430|5168|2004-09-13 13:36:15|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer remains open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to converse with. My email to this group is not intended as conversation. One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, which we do by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in origami. We are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition that results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, not just steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We build custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs to a single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without increasing hull thickness. If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and calling us names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this group. It helps people understand the difference between us and the status quo in origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from holidays, and I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not about to compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly get calls and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that business we turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is involved to produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a production boat, and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are often mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told the straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, and how to factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate from finance. Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of apples to oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good used boat and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did this, and were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to buy a bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often outgrow their original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some years of experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the money to custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many seemingly > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like cut and > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your offshore > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the issue, it > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board also have > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed the > ocean > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the salt water > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can however > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at least once a > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much longer. As > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat such as > a > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. Others may > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with different > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit more > credit > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life does not > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of writing > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or support a > point > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by David > Lewis > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I have surfed > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open Grand Prix > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I would say > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous messages > below. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a seaway. > It >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely pleasant. >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important safety >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the boat. >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to something >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about sailing >> on > a >> lake. This is for offshore. >> >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack assumed because >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog each day, > and >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never will. A >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting you, the >> more >> likely that it will. >> >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is nothing in the >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with my wife >> and >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How about you >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the wife and > kids >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round the buoys >> at >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd enjoy > hearing >> about your sailing over a beer. >> >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make it >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent them from >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or two. >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It doesn't >> have >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go offshore. > Anyone >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go cruising. >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within 1 year I >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and was > cruising >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, with a > family, >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how anyone can do >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter of public >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you that > brought >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is open. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5431|5168|2004-09-13 13:36:15|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Hi Brent, as always I get a chuckle reading your email. As with strength versus stiffness, your comments about navigation apply more to yourself. We routinely sail in areas or coral, many of which appear as "unsurveyed", or "last surveyed 18xx" on the charts, often in areas of very poor visibility. Haven't yet lost a boat, touch wood. My understanding of the rules is that plastic thru-hulls are permitted, not required - and only if they have a specific strength. Monel is not subject to crevice corrosion underwater as with 300 series stainless, and doesn't rot the wood the way rust does, but aren't we off topic talking about wooden boats? Why, given your opposition to transverse framing in boats, did you add framing to the skeg and bilge keels? (and to the keel if you consider the transverse tank members). I was told it was because there had been problems with the appendages moving around. Not that the metal broke, rather flexed enough to cause problems. If frames are not required, then why add them? It doesn't make sense given that you have said they are not required. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > The need to carry the load on keels from the two strong points , the > chine and centrline or tanktop and to spread out the load of the skeg > was self evident and not the result of failures. > Jack's engine mouints and Mungo's keels are all the structural > failures that I'm aware of . > Gary Curtis was using plastic thru hulls and valves in steel > boats ,in order to comply with ABS rules. So much for their > credibility. > LLoyds requires stainless keelbolts on wooden boats now, even tho > that leads to rapid crevice corrosion in the bolts. So much for their > credibility. > Given all the reefs you have bashed , I hope yopur judgement in > design matters exceeds your navigation skills.I'm beginning to have > my doubts. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The ability > to >> survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The > Bones has >> wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have > long lost >> count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double > spreader, keel >> stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that > pleasure. >> However, as has been said many times by others, stories of success > prove >> nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. >> >> Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were > required in any >> metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number >> of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami > boats were >> originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting the > bilge >> keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is > consistent >> with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and > found it >> necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list for > the group >> all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in > origami boats. >> As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of > avoiding them. >> >> I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand > the >> geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of >> understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the method." > As I >> recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an > attachment makes >> it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point out > where the >> lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and > strength. >> Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a result > of its >> moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its > geometry. >> >> Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making the >> attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it stronger, > which >> can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the > forces. For >> this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 > times >> stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail > sooner than >> expected. >> >> Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, > not the >> boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As a > result, >> the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed > construction, to >> select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for origami, > without >> relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly > adapted to >> origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how > their >> strength compares with other metal boats. >> >> ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction > result in >> much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done on > purpose, >> because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much > stronger >> than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a > grounding >> and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as strong > as other >> metal boats. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on > our web >> site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot compare > one >> drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on each > drawing. >> From this you will see that the first example has a maximum stress > of 10,500 >> PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - an 8 > fold >> reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last example >> (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first > example >> (frameless) before failure. >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> > >> > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional >> > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, >> > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non > that >> > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of >> > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for > many >> > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of > using >> > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the > individual, >> > not a shortcomming in the method. >> > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand >> > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal >> > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the > centreline as >> > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times > more >> > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it > as >> > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, > but >> > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. >> > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all >> > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, >> > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on >> > rubber to hold the engine in place. >> > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been > thru >> > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their > scantlings. >> > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs >> > been thru? >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both >> > mounts would >> >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a >> > seaway, if >> >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a >> > 500 lb >> >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. >> >> >> >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has >> > been >> >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, >> > similar to >> >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal >> > mounted at >> >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like >> > the other >> >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are > subject >> > to >> >> fatigue and failure without warning. >> >> >> >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is >> > standard is >> >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and > when >> > the >> >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, >> > they >> >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings >> > for ABS and >> >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. >> >> >> >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for >> > fatigue? Has >> >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be >> > considered >> >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. >> > This >> >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see > any >> > reason to >> >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven >> > scantlings >> >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser >> > scantlings than is >> >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to >> > make them >> >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed >> > that >> >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten > inches >> >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members >> > involved. I >> >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal >> > fatigue >> >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year >> >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly >> >> > after . >> >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed > small >> >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and >> > always >> >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many >> > cases >> >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been > repeating >> >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than >> >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. >> >> > Brent Swain >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember >> > your >> >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner >> > with >> >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and > remember >> > well >> >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. > They >> > were >> >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was >> > that >> >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the > time. >> >> >> >> >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one > of >> >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, >> > then >> >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some > time >> > ago >> >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required >> >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, >> > but no >> >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, > which >> > are >> >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures > such >> >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our >> > view >> >> > of origami is biased. >> >> >> >> >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think >> > that >> >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal > boat >> >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous > idea >> >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently >> >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is > not >> >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that > say >> >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and > strong. >> >> >> >> >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The >> >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg >> > lead to >> >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it >> > looks >> >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get > about >> >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water > pressure on >> >> > the skeg and rudder. >> >> >> >> >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around > from >> >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of >> >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of > the >> >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is > part of >> >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the > skeg, >> > and >> >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could >> > well >> >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. >> > Thus >> >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse > framing, >> >> > with a girder system between. >> >> >> >> >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in > skegs. >> >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a >> > small >> >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the >> >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: silascrosby >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM >> >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole >> >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The >> >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to > avoid >> >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- > hash >> >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have > heard >> > of >> >> > is >> >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a >> >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent >> >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the >> >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a >> >> > number >> >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only >> >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively >> > unscathed. >> >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in >> >> > Suva,Fiji >> >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 > month >> >> > old >> >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way > home >> > to >> >> > BC. >> >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal > boats. >> >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a > 40' >> >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere >> > between >> >> > NZ >> >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. >> > Ship,container >> >> > or >> >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. >> >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same >> >> > harbour >> >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet > them.Their 'Island >> >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the >> >> > engine >> >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded >> >> > flange. >> >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an > hour >> > or >> >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. >> >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky >> >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was >> >> > motoring >> >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and >> >> > Monica). >> >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel > and >> >> > hit >> >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - >> > missed >> >> > the >> >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. > Dented.OK. >> >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver > Island- >> >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can >> > tell >> >> > it >> >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything >> >> > except >> >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! >> >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots > we >> > hit >> >> > a >> >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large - > scale >> >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the > starboard >> >> > keel >> >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but > lunch >> > was >> >> > on >> >> >> the floor,jam-side down. >> >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of > disaster,real or >> >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or >> >> > others. >> >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who > sometimes >> > is >> >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the >> > skipper >> >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he >> >> > managed >> >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' >> >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon > 3' >> > in >> >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum > origami >> >> > twin >> >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and >> >> > Allison >> >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! > We >> >> > were >> >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good > seas >> >> > at >> >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and > ripping >> >> >> along.Excellent sailing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >> >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- > --- >> > --- >> >> > ---------- >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> >> >> >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms >> > of >> >> > Service. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5432|5415|2004-09-13 13:36:16|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: finances query|Sound advice. We used a similar approach with great success. Used steel boats in North America can often be bought at a fraction of the price of similarly finished and equipped FG boats. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Phillips" To: Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] finances query > G'day Matt, > > This is Jim from Brisbane. In response to your questions about financing > the cruising dream, I think you really first have to ask yourself if you > want to go cruising or if you want to go boat building. > > If you want the former, then you should forget about building your own > boat as this will cost you more $$ than just going out and buying a decent > used boat. But, more importantly, it will save you years of work, effort > and stress. > > If you are determined to build your own boat, you should realise that this > is not for financial reasons, but something akin to spritual. > > When I was a child, my father bought a steel hull in Newcastle, NSW, we > plonked a motor in it and brought it up to Brisbane, where he fitted it > out and off we went - 3 years to sail around the world. > > In our late 20s, in 2000, my wife and I used a different method. We > simply flew to Florida, rented a car and spent one week looking at boats > that we had found on the internet. In less than 10 days from our arrival, > we had bought a 30' steel cutter. And then started on repairs - new > gearbox, new water tanks, exterior sand blast, new paint job etc. We went > thru one month of long days battling the sandflies in a mangrove > swamp-encircled boatyard doing the repairs. And battling the insiduous > invitations for beers from well-meaning boaties who were determined to > divert us from our goal. They laughed at our goal of one month for > repairs - "you'll be here for at least a year, pal." > > So, a month later, we splashed the boat and then a few days later headed > south. Over the following year we sailed to Cuba, Bahamas, Jamaica, > Caymans, Mexico and back to the US (where we met the same people from the > year before, in the same boatyard, working on the same boats and dreaming > the same dreams - it was like groundhog day). Anyway, we had gotten > pregnant, so we sold the boat, traded-up for a little boy and are now back > in the rat race for a while. > > Lucky we went while we could! You never know when a disease will strike > or situations will change. So you have to do these things while you still > can. > > Anyway, the purchase cost for the boat was US$7500, spent $3000 in > repairs, another $7000 or $8000 for the year and then we sold the boat for > what we paid for it. The boat cost was remarkably cheap, because > Americans turn up their noses at steel (they prefer plastic) and the > previous Swiss owner was desperate to sell. > > So, in summary, do you want a cheap steel boat to do some cruising? Or do > you want to spend years of heart-break, years of your youth, building a > boat with the hope that one day you will go cruising? > > If the answer is #1, then go buy a boat and I'll expect to see you > cruising north past here next year. We live on Russell Island with a > jetty out the front of the house, so you're welcome to moor there. > > If the answer is #2, go to a DIY boatyard in Melbourne and start asking > those builders how many years they have been at it, how many are left to > go, whether their long term relationships have survived and whether they > still think the cost in dollars and time is worth it. And then, if you > are still determined to build, change your living arrangements to a large > block and start building. > > If you really want to go cruising, money is not a barrier. From someone > who has done it and also talked to many wanna-bes in various boatyards, > marinas and bars, the barrier always seems to be attitude or unrealistic > expectations. > > Best of luck, mate, > Jim. > PS. BTW, my old man is still sailing, still with a steel boat. > www.wallabycreek.com > > normanbywaite wrote: > Hi Folks, > Lurker Matt here. I've just finished reading (in almost one sitting) > Brent Swain's book, and my imagination is running in high gear as to > what, when, and how i'll build meself an origami boat. A great read, > perhaps revolutionary, and i must thank you, Mr Swain. > But every time i set myself to planning/daydreaming, a nasty wave of > reality-gloom comes over the picture. And this chunk of reality is > made of money. > So my question to you, those who have possibly had to re-jig their > lives in order to pursue the cruising dream, is how did you pay for > it? > More specifically, does anyone have any tips for getting started, for > a big city, appartment dwelling, office working, keen-yet-frustrated > aspiring BS boat builder? > I mean, if i have to rent a building space (which seems likely) then > if the project takes a few years part-time, the rent costs will > escalate alarmingly. > How did you get going? Did you have to re-jig your career &/or family > so you could devote yourself to part-time building? Or did you sell > some piece of property, semi-retire, and go full-time a-building? Did > you move from your white-collar life in a city to something more > rural in order to get the 'quiet' to build? > My armchair voyaging has been enjoyable, but has thus far resulted in > nothing more than an un-scratched itch, and a large nautical library, > but in all my reading i've discovered the cruising books to be > maddeningly short of details of finance. > Surely this subject is no longer taboo. > How the hell does one afford to cruise ten months of the year, is > simply a matter of big investments? > Please, i'd be grateful for tips on how to re-jig my life so i can > spend the time and money on boat building, and then have the > warewithall to go cruising. > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, Australia. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5433|5168|2004-09-13 13:39:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Thanks Ted, what is shown is a slice through the skeg. The "external brace" is a transverse member within the skeg, that penetrates downwards from inside the hull. It is not external to the hull or the skeg. FEA and other methods all have limitations, yet they provide useful results. We don't know if it will rain tomorrow, but forecasting does provide some idea of the probability. To indicate areas that might need attention, FEA looks like a fine tool to me. However, it is no more than a forecast. Better to run the FEA on a skeg before it is built, and investigate further areas that are predicted to be weak, rather than go sailing offshore and discover the problems later. As noted on the models, the purpose of the analysis was not to calculate loads for a specific skeg. Rather, to show how the geometry of the framing at the point of attachment can affect the stress. The significant result was that by adding transverse framing to a skeg, overall peak loads are significantly reduced, and the loads can be minimized in the skin of the hull, with the point of maximum stress moved downwards, out of the hull, and into the skeg. Thus, in a case like Mungo, with transverse framing, the skeg would likely have failed, rather than the hull, and only after much more abuse. A boat without a skeg, but still water tight being more desired than a boat with a skeg but a failure in the hull. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:58 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > Greg, > > Regarding your FEA plot: > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I > assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much > about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to > two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and > the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now > sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its > use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed > them your plot, their comments were as follows: > > 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external > cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build > it? > 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless > as an aid to design. > 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. > 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they > are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent > stress. > 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating > singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. > 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of > all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger > being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to > know that the analysis was rubbish. > 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure > of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study > of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack > starting and propagating. > > My comments are: > > Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- > axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. > > My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they > were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem > a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject > not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a > vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and > swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock > up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the > bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. > > Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what > was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end > up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has > been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the > UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the > availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used > inappropriately. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5434|5168|2004-09-13 15:32:50|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|With the sides of the skeg taking either tension or compression and being extremely strong in that sense , the important thing is to maximise the attachement of the transverse web to the skeg. Having even a short transverse bulkhead going into the skeg , welded as much as possible to the sides of the skeg makes for a huge increase in the strength of the hull - skeg attachement . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Thanks Ted, what is shown is a slice through the skeg. The "external brace" > is a transverse member within the skeg, that penetrates downwards from > inside the hull. It is not external to the hull or the skeg. > > FEA and other methods all have limitations, yet they provide useful results. > We don't know if it will rain tomorrow, but forecasting does provide some > idea of the probability. To indicate areas that might need attention, FEA > looks like a fine tool to me. However, it is no more than a forecast. > Better to run the FEA on a skeg before it is built, and investigate further > areas that are predicted to be weak, rather than go sailing offshore and > discover the problems later. > > As noted on the models, the purpose of the analysis was not to calculate > loads for a specific skeg. Rather, to show how the geometry of the framing > at the point of attachment can affect the stress. The significant result > was that by adding transverse framing to a skeg, overall peak loads are > significantly reduced, and the loads can be minimized in the skin of the > hull, with the point of maximum stress moved downwards, out of the hull, and > into the skeg. > > Thus, in a case like Mungo, with transverse framing, the skeg would likely > have failed, rather than the hull, and only after much more abuse. A boat > without a skeg, but still water tight being more desired than a boat with a > skeg but a failure in the hull. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:58 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > Greg, > > > > Regarding your FEA plot: > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > > > > I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis plot. I > > assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much > > about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke to > > two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and > > the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now > > sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its > > use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed > > them your plot, their comments were as follows: > > > > 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external > > cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will build > > it? > > 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless > > as an aid to design. > > 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. > > 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they > > are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent > > stress. > > 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating > > singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. > > 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of > > all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger > > being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to > > know that the analysis was rubbish. > > 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure > > of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study > > of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a crack > > starting and propagating. > > > > My comments are: > > > > Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing tri- > > axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. > > > > My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they > > were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might seem > > a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject > > not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a > > vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps and > > swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used mock > > up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the > > bracket would react to these various loads and not break or resonate. > > > > Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what > > was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end > > up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has > > been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the > > UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the > > availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used > > inappropriately. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5435|5237|2004-09-13 16:50:54|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Wet or dry exhaust|Armchair sailor here again. Bob and Nancy Griffith, Blue Water, 1979, p69: "A dry exhaust eliminates most exhaust problems, but it must have a high enough lead or a valve to prevent flooding in heavy seas. A boat with a steel mast can have the best engine exhaust of all: out the top of the mast, no water, no smell, no smoke." Anyone ever hear of such a thing? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5436|5237|2004-09-13 17:26:02|brentswain38|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|In the spring of 1979 I was moored next to a Mmarco Polo which had the exhuast led out thru the top of the mizzen. Even 20 ft away from him I couldn't hear the exhuastwhen the engine was running . When I left for Moorea the same day as him, I watched the sails being hoisted. The mizzen was totally black for the top 6 ft. You would have to put a long piece of pipe on top to lead the exhuast soot away from the sails. I'd be worried about corrosion inside the mast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > Armchair sailor here again. Bob and Nancy Griffith, Blue Water, 1979, p69: > "A dry exhaust eliminates most exhaust problems, but it must have a high enough lead or a valve to prevent flooding in heavy seas. A boat with a steel mast can have the best engine exhaust of all: out the top of the mast, no water, no smell, no smoke." > Anyone ever hear of such a thing? > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5437|5421|2004-09-13 17:35:47|brentswain38|Re: Manifolds|Someone wrote a book on cooking on a car exhuast manifold called "Manifold Destinies " It gives mileage per pound of roast, etc. and many recipies . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi colin > > What else did nigel warren have to say about the nesscesity of water > cooled manifolds? Have read his great book awhile back but can't get > hold of it again. > > Cheers > > Ben | 5438|5237|2004-09-13 17:39:23|brentswain38|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|Standard car and truck heaters ,available in any auto wreckers ,use engine water heat and work well when motoring. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" wrote: > VWs and Model T Fords had heaters that obtained heat from the exhaust manifolds. They didn't heat very well but would kill you pretty good. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:08 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > > The closest thing that I have ever seen is the front 2 cylinders exhaust for > an old VW. They were cooled by heating the car. I also saw a manifold on a > 1920's or 30's truck that hade a heater of sorts cast into the manifold. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henri Naths [mailto:c_hnaths@t...] > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:46 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > > > David > Is there such a thing as a air cooled exhaust manifold? Just a brain fart.H > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 10 September, 2004 12:24 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > > I had thought that CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c) were updates of the 1940 > regulation that I mentioned earlier. If so something that was unchanged > would not be repeated? > > All I know is that 99% of all boats have a water-cooled exhaust manifold, > and I have seen many un cooled exhaust manifolds glowing read hot when the > engine was working. It is more visible in the dark. > > I wouldn't own a boat without one. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:17 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > > > > > David, > > Federal requirements for marine engine exhaust systems are covered > > by CFR 119.420(b) and 182.420(c). > > > > They break it down into passenger and non-passenger boats. In each group > gas > > > and diesel are subject to different regulations. > > > > In the section about diesel engines on non-passenger boats I don't see any > > > thing about any water-cooling required. In fact they make the specific > > statement that an air-cooled diesel is permitted. There is NO REQUIREMENT > > FOR WATER COOLED MANAFOLDS. Unlike gas engines, which appear to require > > water-cooling with the exception of deck-mounted auxiliary units. Gas > > engines MUST be water cooled to meet the regulation on passenger boats > > caring more then 12 passengers for hire. > > > > Commercial boats less the 65 feet and carrying less then 12 passengers for > > > hire may elect to use the ABYC standards and ignore this regulation > > altogether. All private vessels are exempt as far as I can see. There is a > > > difference in the requirements between a private, commercial boat not > > carrying paying passengers and a boat caring paying passengers. > > > > Unless I am misreading this or it has been superseded by new regulations > it > > says no WATER COOLED manifolds are necessary on a diesel for private use. > > All the best, > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR > > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp? cid=3963 > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- > -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1094928360/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http: /compa > nion.yahoo.com> click here > > > > :HM/A=2128215/rand=351427646> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5439|5168|2004-09-13 17:43:57|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer remains > open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to converse with. > My email to this group is not intended as conversation. > > One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, which we do > by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in origami. We > are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition that > results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, not just > steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We build > custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs to a > single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape > (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without increasing > hull thickness. > > If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and calling us > names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this group. It > helps people understand the difference between us and the status quo in > origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from holidays, and > I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. > > Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not about to > compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly get calls > and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that business we > turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is involved to > produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a production boat, > and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are often > mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told the > straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, and how to > factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate from > finance. > > Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of apples to > oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good used boat > and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did this, and > were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to buy a > bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often outgrow their > original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some years of > experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the money to > custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Casling" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many seemingly > > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like cut and > > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your offshore > > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the issue, it > > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board also have > > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed the > > ocean > > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the salt water > > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can however > > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at least once a > > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much longer. As > > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat such as > > a > > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. Others may > > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with different > > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit more > > credit > > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life does not > > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of writing > > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or support a > > point > > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by David > > Lewis > > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I have surfed > > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open Grand Prix > > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I would say > > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous messages > > below. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a seaway. > > It > >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely pleasant. > >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important safety > >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the boat. > >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to something > >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about sailing > >> on > > a > >> lake. This is for offshore. > >> > >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack assumed because > >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog each day, > > and > >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never will. A > >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting you, the > >> more > >> likely that it will. > >> > >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is nothing in the > >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with my wife > >> and > >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How about you > >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the wife and > > kids > >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round the buoys > >> at > >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd enjoy > > hearing > >> about your sailing over a beer. > >> > >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make it > >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent them from > >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or two. > >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It doesn't > >> have > >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go offshore. > > Anyone > >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go cruising. > >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within 1 year I > >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and was > > cruising > >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, with a > > family, > >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how anyone can do > >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter of public > >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you that > > brought > >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is open. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5440|5168|2004-09-13 17:58:10|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Transverse stiffening does have it's place, to stiffen keels and skegs, not randomly spaced throughout the boat in the wooden boat tradition, where they serve no usefull structural purpose whatever. They were invented to deal with the fact that wood has strength in one direction only and is not a homogenous material. When steel arrived on the scene as a boatbuilding material they simply colied what they knew , wooden boatbuilding, without questioning the need for all those bits and pieces .Putting them back in represents a giant step backwards. The story about buses in Spain is an example of how much improvement we can make in working with metal if we think outside the box and not get bogged down in jusifying the mistakes of the past.The huge potential of metal as a material for building anything has barely been tapped. Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to put to gether a 40 ft shell, a job I can do in less than 100 hours. If I had your "lets cling to the past" attitude, we would all still be setting up frames and doing huge amounts of unneccesary work to produce an inferior product. In this ,as in any other business, there is never any shortage of parasites who would benefit from the progress someone else has made, while remaining critical of the one who taught him. One guy named Gunter Richtler, who I taught to build origami boats ,later claimed to have invented the proccess himself. I put you in the same category. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Brent, as always I get a chuckle reading your email. As with strength > versus stiffness, your comments about navigation apply more to yourself. We > routinely sail in areas or coral, many of which appear as "unsurveyed", or > "last surveyed 18xx" on the charts, often in areas of very poor visibility. > Haven't yet lost a boat, touch wood. > > My understanding of the rules is that plastic thru-hulls are permitted, not > required - and only if they have a specific strength. Monel is not subject > to crevice corrosion underwater as with 300 series stainless, and doesn't > rot the wood the way rust does, but aren't we off topic talking about wooden > boats? > > Why, given your opposition to transverse framing in boats, did you add > framing to the skeg and bilge keels? (and to the keel if you consider the > transverse tank members). I was told it was because there had been problems > with the appendages moving around. Not that the metal broke, rather flexed > enough to cause problems. If frames are not required, then why add them? > It doesn't make sense given that you have said they are not required. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:22 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > The need to carry the load on keels from the two strong points , the > > chine and centrline or tanktop and to spread out the load of the skeg > > was self evident and not the result of failures. > > Jack's engine mouints and Mungo's keels are all the structural > > failures that I'm aware of . > > Gary Curtis was using plastic thru hulls and valves in steel > > boats ,in order to comply with ABS rules. So much for their > > credibility. > > LLoyds requires stainless keelbolts on wooden boats now, even tho > > that leads to rapid crevice corrosion in the bolts. So much for their > > credibility. > > Given all the reefs you have bashed , I hope yopur judgement in > > design matters exceeds your navigation skills.I'm beginning to have > > my doubts. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The ability > > to > >> survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The > > Bones has > >> wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have > > long lost > >> count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double > > spreader, keel > >> stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that > > pleasure. > >> However, as has been said many times by others, stories of success > > prove > >> nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. > >> > >> Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were > > required in any > >> metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number > >> of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami > > boats were > >> originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting the > > bilge > >> keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is > > consistent > >> with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and > > found it > >> necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list for > > the group > >> all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in > > origami boats. > >> As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of > > avoiding them. > >> > >> I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand > > the > >> geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of > >> understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the method." > > As I > >> recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an > > attachment makes > >> it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point out > > where the > >> lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and > > strength. > >> Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a result > > of its > >> moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its > > geometry. > >> > >> Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making the > >> attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it stronger, > > which > >> can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the > > forces. For > >> this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 > > times > >> stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail > > sooner than > >> expected. > >> > >> Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, > > not the > >> boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As a > > result, > >> the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed > > construction, to > >> select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for origami, > > without > >> relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly > > adapted to > >> origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how > > their > >> strength compares with other metal boats. > >> > >> ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction > > result in > >> much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done on > > purpose, > >> because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much > > stronger > >> than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a > > grounding > >> and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as strong > > as other > >> metal boats. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on > > our web > >> site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot compare > > one > >> drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on each > > drawing. > >> From this you will see that the first example has a maximum stress > > of 10,500 > >> PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - an 8 > > fold > >> reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last example > >> (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first > > example > >> (frameless) before failure. > >> > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "brentswain38" > >> To: > >> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM > >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> > > >> > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional > >> > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after costruction, > >> > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and non > > that > >> > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack of > >> > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for > > many > >> > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of > > using > >> > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the > > individual, > >> > not a shortcomming in the method. > >> > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand > >> > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to metal > >> > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the > > centreline as > >> > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times > > more > >> > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing it > > as > >> > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue worries, > > but > >> > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. > >> > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all > >> > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the hull, > >> > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely soly on > >> > rubber to hold the engine in place. > >> > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been > > thru > >> > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their > > scantlings. > >> > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your designs > >> > been thru? > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both > >> > mounts would > >> >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. In a > >> > seaway, if > >> >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing like a > >> > 500 lb > >> >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > >> >> > >> >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that has > >> > been > >> >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are attachments, > >> > similar to > >> >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal > >> > mounted at > >> >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, like > >> > the other > >> >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are > > subject > >> > to > >> >> fatigue and failure without warning. > >> >> > >> >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than is > >> > standard is > >> >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and > > when > >> > the > >> >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined afterwards, > >> > they > >> >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the scantlings > >> > for ABS and > >> >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > >> >> > >> >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > >> > fatigue? Has > >> >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be > >> > considered > >> >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine mount. > >> > This > >> >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see > > any > >> > reason to > >> >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of proven > >> > scantlings > >> >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser > >> > scantlings than is > >> >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little extra to > >> > make them > >> >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "brentswain38" > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I noticed > >> > that > >> >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten > > inches > >> >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members > >> > involved. I > >> >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal > >> > fatigue > >> >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > >> >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke shortly > >> >> > after . > >> >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed > > small > >> >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and > >> > always > >> >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in many > >> > cases > >> >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been > > repeating > >> >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more than > >> >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > >> >> > Brent Swain > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I remember > >> > your > >> >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had dinner > >> > with > >> >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and > > remember > >> > well > >> >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. > > They > >> > were > >> >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know was > >> > that > >> >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the > > time. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is one > > of > >> >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny them, > >> > then > >> >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some > > time > >> > ago > >> >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat required > >> >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of success, > >> > but no > >> >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, > > which > >> > are > >> >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures > > such > >> >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", our > >> > view > >> >> > of origami is biased. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also think > >> > that > >> >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal > > boat > >> >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a dangerous > > idea > >> >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing inherently > >> >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is > > not > >> >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that > > say > >> >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and > > strong. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. The > >> >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the skeg > >> > lead to > >> >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry it > >> > looks > >> >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get > > about > >> >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water > > pressure on > >> >> > the skeg and rudder. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around > > from > >> >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > >> >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure of > > the > >> >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is > > part of > >> >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the > > skeg, > >> > and > >> >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you could > >> > well > >> >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far enough. > >> > Thus > >> >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse > > framing, > >> >> > with a girder system between. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in > > skegs. > >> >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> >> >> > >> >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to lie a > >> > small > >> >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with the > >> >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: silascrosby > >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > >> >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the whole > >> >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > >> >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to > > avoid > >> >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- > > hash > >> >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have > > heard > >> > of > >> >> > is > >> >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was hardly a > >> >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to subsequent > >> >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in the > >> >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test on a > >> >> > number > >> >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are only > >> >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively > >> > unscathed. > >> >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 in > >> >> > Suva,Fiji > >> >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 > > month > >> >> > old > >> >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way > > home > >> > to > >> >> > BC. > >> >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal > > boats. > >> >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' a > > 40' > >> >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere > >> > between > >> >> > NZ > >> >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. > >> > Ship,container > >> >> > or > >> >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > >> >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the same > >> >> > harbour > >> >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet > > them.Their 'Island > >> >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of the > >> >> > engine > >> >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse welded > >> >> > flange. > >> >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an > > hour > >> > or > >> >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > >> >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the rocky > >> >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > >> >> > motoring > >> >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack and > >> >> > Monica). > >> >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow cahannel > > and > >> >> > hit > >> >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - > >> > missed > >> >> > the > >> >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. > > Dented.OK. > >> >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver > > Island- > >> >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we can > >> > tell > >> >> > it > >> >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit anything > >> >> > except > >> >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this trip! > >> >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 knots > > we > >> > hit > >> >> > a > >> >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the large - > > scale > >> >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the > > starboard > >> >> > keel > >> >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but > > lunch > >> > was > >> >> > on > >> >> >> the floor,jam-side down. > >> >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of > > disaster,real or > >> >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami boats or > >> >> > others. > >> >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who > > sometimes > >> > is > >> >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the > >> > skipper > >> >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I guess he > >> >> > managed > >> >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > >> >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing on 'Loon > > 3' > >> > in > >> >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum > > origami > >> >> > twin > >> >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian and > >> >> > Allison > >> >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great boat! > > We > >> >> > were > >> >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in good > > seas > >> >> > at > >> >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and > > ripping > >> >> >> along.Excellent sailing. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >> >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> >> >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- --- > > --- > >> > --- > >> >> > ---------- > >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> >> > >> >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> >> >> > >> >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > >> > of > >> >> > Service. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5441|5441|2004-09-13 18:06:50|brentswain38|Built in bow drogues|Some people have been running a stainless round bar down the stem of my boats as far as the keels. This would be OK if boats always sailed in a straight line. Unfortunatly ,when beating against a rough headsea ,a boat makes a fair amount of leeway, causing this bar to move sideways thru the water , causing a huge amout of drag and turbulence.There is no need to take this bar much below the waterline at the stem as the zincs protect the steel below the water.Ther is a huge disadvantage in terms of drag when going to windward. I left Tonga with a Bob Perry designed aluminium boat which had chine bars set on the outside of the chines and protruding considerably. We both had the same engine and did the same speed in smooth water . When we hit the ocean swell outside , the water started flowing accross these bars and the aluminium boat slowed considerably. We both sailed more or less the same route to Vancouver Island , him taking 99 days and me taking 57 days . He would have done much better without the built in drogues on his chines.The same applies to a centreline drogue foreward. Brent Swain| 5442|5428|2004-09-13 19:24:27|fmichael graham|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|Richard: I hope it doesn't offend you if I take issue with your comments but I think that you're undervaluing your contribution to the process of the "making" of a welder. Using the analogy of pipe welding; an instructor taught me how to put in a root bead by using a certain root gap(3/32), with a particular landing. He taught me that, with these parameters, I could drag in a root with 6010. I learned that the result was a faster bead with uniform penetration. The instructor taught me to feather grind my stops to ensure no gaps in penetration, grind out the wagonwheels before the hot pass, and dig & build the hot pass to ensure complete fusion. Now, granted, this is not the technique used by every pipeline welder. My point being that I couldn't have figured this all out on my own and, though they may exist, I have not come across a book that describes in great detail how to put in the correct welds for each type of; process, electrode/wire/rod, joint, metal, etc. Books discuss and even offer pictures of welds with poor penetration or fusion, porosity, slag inclusion, undercut, etc., yet, again, I haven't come across one that teaches how to avoid these flaws with each type of weld, etc. . I have met instructors who are "perfect" welders, but can't teach. I have also met instructors who can get the point across with few words &/or a short demo because they can "read" the student's personality & are able to get beyond that student's blank - "I don't have the slightest f*cking idea what he's talking about" - look. I've seen the work of more than a few self-taught welders and - ya know what? - you can tell that their self-taught. I think that your selling yourself short, Rich. Without guys like you, the local steel industry would be royally screwed. As far as I am concerned, you can teach someone to weld, just ask some of your past students... or, is this a philosophical point that you & Brent are making, but that I am just not following? Succinctly, I believe that it is the "tricks" that you teach that can't be had from a book. Honestly, I sort of thought that your comments were tongue-in-cheek. Hope you take this in the spirit it was given. Thank you, Mike Richard Till wrote: Brent, At 22 yrs. I decided to go pipline welding. I sought out the best instructor in the country to obtain API 1104 certification and become coded. He gave me a small pamphlet to read about pipelines and turned me lose on a pile of 36" pipe coupons. The words he left me with have stuck: "this is the basic technique, but I can't teach you how to weld--only you can do that." Over the next 5 months I hardly ever saw the man, just did more of what worked and left out what didn't work until the welds were consistent and to code. I got a job pipeline welding. Now I am a welding instructor and the same approach applies--I can't teach anyone to weld . . . . rt --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5443|5168|2004-09-13 21:46:37|Henri Naths|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|"If you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others think again. Every time you criticize someone you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgemental criticism of others is a well known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and hold you to what you've done. You didn't think did you that just pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all of your misdoings and from coming down on you hard? Or did you think that because he's such a nice God that he'd let you off the hook? Better think this one through from the beginning. God is kind but he is not soft. In kindness he takes us firmly by the hand and leads us into a radical life change. You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it is going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgement. Make no mistake: in the end you get what's coming to you----real life for those who work on God's side, but those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, fire!!" I didn't write it,.... Paul did. Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 13 September, 2004 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer remains > open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to converse with. > My email to this group is not intended as conversation. > > One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, which we do > by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in origami. We > are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition that > results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, not just > steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We build > custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs to a > single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape > (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without increasing > hull thickness. > > If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and calling us > names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this group. It > helps people understand the difference between us and the status quo in > origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from holidays, and > I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. > > Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not about to > compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly get calls > and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that business we > turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is involved to > produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a production boat, > and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are often > mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told the > straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, and how to > factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate from > finance. > > Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of apples to > oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good used boat > and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did this, and > were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to buy a > bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often outgrow their > original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some years of > experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the money to > custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Casling" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many seemingly > > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like cut and > > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your offshore > > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the issue, it > > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board also have > > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed the > > ocean > > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the salt water > > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can however > > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at least once a > > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much longer. As > > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat such as > > a > > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. Others may > > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with different > > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit more > > credit > > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life does not > > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of writing > > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or support a > > point > > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by David > > Lewis > > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I have surfed > > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open Grand Prix > > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I would say > > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous messages > > below. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a seaway. > > It > >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely pleasant. > >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important safety > >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the boat. > >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to something > >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about sailing > >> on > > a > >> lake. This is for offshore. > >> > >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack assumed because > >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog each day, > > and > >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never will. A > >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting you, the > >> more > >> likely that it will. > >> > >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is nothing in the > >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with my wife > >> and > >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How about you > >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the wife and > > kids > >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round the buoys > >> at > >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd enjoy > > hearing > >> about your sailing over a beer. > >> > >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make it > >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent them from > >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or two. > >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It doesn't > >> have > >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go offshore. > > Anyone > >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go cruising. > >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within 1 year I > >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and was > > cruising > >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, with a > > family, > >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how anyone can do > >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter of public > >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you that > > brought > >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is open. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5444|5421|2004-09-13 22:39:12|Michael Casling|Re: Manifolds|Colin, thanks for posting that. The Bradford van did not use a fan just the radiator. My dad bought one new in the fifties, had an aluminium body and a canvas roof, was very light. The parent company Jowett made the Jowett Javelin which had a flat four motor in it. My dad also owned one of those at one point. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Manifolds > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > Hi colin > > > > What else did nigel warren have to say about the nesscesity of > water > > cooled manifolds? Have read his great book awhile back but can't > get > > hold of it again. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > Hi Ben > > Nigel Warren writes: > > EXHAUST MANIFOLD > This item may or may not be necessary. The factors are the types of > engine, the flow of air (if any) over the exhaust manifold, and the > speed the engine is to run at. If the engine is completely boxed in > and is to produce it's full horsepower, then the manifold, if not > cooled, will become red hot. On the other hand, many successful > conversions utilising less than the full power of the engine do not > have a water-cooled manifold, but rely upon a flow of air and safety > precautions such as asbestos tape on the exhaust pipe and a sheet of > asbestos on the inside of the engine box alongside the manifold. The > original fan can be retained (with the proviso about aluminium pump > housings, and with a guard fitted) to create a flow of air. > Alternatively, a smaller diameter fan specially made up can be > fitted, vee-belt driven at a faster speed than the crankshaft, and > situated directly in line with the manifold. > A commercially made water-cooled manifold is a rather expensive item > but is one which can be added fairly easily later on if, after > trials, you consider that it is necessary. If you have suitable > workshop equipment a water-cooled manifold can be fabricated (6). > Firms producing manifolds are listed in the Appendix. > > > He then proceeds to talk about exhaust water injection and exhaust > pipes. (6) refers to the diagram already posted. > > > In case it's of interest, Nick Skeates has used a 1000cc aluminium > horizontally opposed twin "Bradford" petrol engine in his Wylo-II for > the last 20 or so years. > He writes: > The exhaust system is dry, uncooled, and lagged with asbestos. I made > it up from galvanised pipe, with welded joints, and it exits through > the transom a little above the waterline. The pipe loops up high to > prevent water running into the engine, but for additional protection > I fitted a gate valve near the transom which I always keep closed > when not running the engine. I feel that water entering the exhaust > system is one of the prime causes of marine engine trouble, > especially in salt water use. Even if no water actually reaches the > engine, the damp salty conditions inside the pipe must inevitably > rust the exhaust valves and their seats, resulting in poor > compression and difficult starting. The common practice of a water- > injected exhaust can only increase this problem: certainly such an > engine I used to own had surprisingly rusty exhaust valves on > inspection. > > > It might be worth mentioning to the younger members that although > both of these extracts make reference to asbestos lagging, this was a > material in very common use in Britain and elsewhere back in the > early 1980's. > > Regards > > Colin > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5445|5237|2004-09-13 23:04:18|Michael Casling|Re: Wet or dry exhaust|It would make my halyards very dirty so I do not think I would do it. Seems much easier to do it the normal way. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Wet or dry exhaust > > Armchair sailor here again. Bob and Nancy Griffith, Blue Water, 1979, p69: > "A dry exhaust eliminates most exhaust problems, but it must have a high enough lead or a valve to prevent flooding in heavy seas. A boat with a steel mast can have the best engine exhaust of all: out the top of the mast, no water, no smell, no smoke." > Anyone ever hear of such a thing? > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5446|5428|2004-09-13 23:23:22|Michael Casling|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|I do not know how to weld, I pay my neighbour to do it. My trade when I actually worked for a living is upholstery. I could show someone how to build a dodger for their boat, I have I heck of a time trying to explain or tell someone how to do this. I worked with an old gifted canvas worker for a while and the instruction he gave me can not be found in a book, and frankly the instruction was priceless. So it is not welding but I like quality instruction from a pro. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "fmichael graham" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:24 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner > Richard: > I hope it doesn't offend you if I take issue with your comments but I think that you're undervaluing your contribution to the process of the "making" of a welder. Using the analogy of pipe welding; an instructor taught me how to put in a root bead by using a certain root gap(3/32), with a particular landing. He taught me that, with these parameters, I could drag in a root with 6010. I learned that the result was a faster bead with uniform penetration. The instructor taught me to feather grind my stops to ensure no gaps in penetration, grind out the wagonwheels before the hot pass, and dig & build the hot pass to ensure complete fusion. Now, granted, this is not the technique used by every pipeline welder. My point being that I couldn't have figured this all out on my own and, though they may exist, I have not come across a book that describes in great detail how to put in the correct welds for each type of; process, electrode/wire/rod, joint, metal, etc. > > Books discuss and even offer pictures of welds with poor penetration or fusion, porosity, slag inclusion, undercut, etc., yet, again, I haven't come across one that teaches how to avoid these flaws with each type of weld, etc. . I have met instructors who are "perfect" welders, but can't teach. I have also met instructors who can get the point across with few words &/or a short demo because they can "read" the student's personality & are able to get beyond that student's blank - "I don't have the slightest f*cking idea what he's talking about" - look. I've seen the work of more than a few self-taught welders and - ya know what? - you can tell that their self-taught. > > I think that your selling yourself short, Rich. Without guys like you, the local steel industry would be royally screwed. As far as I am concerned, you can teach someone to weld, just ask some of your past students... or, is this a philosophical point that you & Brent are making, but that I am just not following? Succinctly, I believe that it is the "tricks" that you teach that can't be had from a book. Honestly, I sort of thought that your comments were tongue-in-cheek. > Hope you take this in the spirit it was given. > Thank you, > Mike > | 5447|5447|2004-09-14 00:29:41|tronfixr|Stretch a 26 or compress a 32 or 36?|Hello Brent, I was wondering about the possibility to convert a set of plans to 28'. I'd like something my truck can pull out of the water- 26' is a little light and the 32' is a little heavy. A center cockpit would be nice as well and in a previous message you had mentioned 26 may be a little small for that. On a second note, I don't see instructions on ordering your plans. Would they be somewhere in this forum? Thanks, Mike| 5448|5421|2004-09-14 00:56:58|Ben Tucker|Re: Manifolds|Thanks Colin This Pretty well clears up the situation in my mind. Think I'll leave it as is for now. I like Nigels aproach of not just copying everyone else but actually thinking about Why and if something is really needed, and starting with the simplest cheapest idea and seeing if it works before going complex. He sold me on keel cooling, and now i have it I would never go back to the normal system. Cheers Ben| 5449|5447|2004-09-14 00:57:45|fmichael graham|Re: Stretch a 26 or compress a 32 or 36?|Mike: See the files section to find out about ordering plans. Regards, Mike tronfixr wrote: Hello Brent, I was wondering about the possibility to convert a set of plans to 28'. I'd like something my truck can pull out of the water- 26' is a little light and the 32' is a little heavy. A center cockpit would be nice as well and in a previous message you had mentioned 26 may be a little small for that. On a second note, I don't see instructions on ordering your plans. Would they be somewhere in this forum? Thanks, Mike To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5450|5447|2004-09-14 01:32:05|tronfixr|Re: Stretch a 26 or compress a 32 or 36?|Thanks Mike. I found it as soon as I posted- also 31 vise 32. Batting a hundred tonight... Cheers, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Mike: > See the files section to find out about ordering plans. > Regards, > Mike > > > tronfixr wrote: > Hello Brent, > I was wondering about the possibility to convert a set of plans to 28'. > I'd like something my truck can pull out of the water- 26' is a little > light and the 32' is a little heavy. A center cockpit would be nice as > well and in a previous message you had mentioned 26 may be a little > small for that. > > On a second note, I don't see instructions on ordering your plans. > Would they be somewhere in this forum? > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5451|5451|2004-09-14 05:48:09|sae140|Nigel Warren book.|A couple of people have emailed me off-forum asking me for more info re: the Warren book, so here's my attempt at a book review: Marine Conversions (Vehicle engine conversions for boats) Second Edition, 1982 Nigel WARREN Adlard Coles Ltd IBSN 0-229-11678-7 This book was initially written back in 1972, and as such contains rather outdated references to British engines of that era (Austin 7, Ford 100E, BMC A-series, etc) some of which have now become collector's items. However, many of the principles underlying the issues of cooling, drives and propellor selection are still relevant today, as are the chapters on diesel engines, which range from 1.5 to 6 litres. The book includes cook-book calculations for the smaller Perkins 4108, BMC 1.5 and 2.2, and the VW Golf (Rabbit) units. Warren starts from the position of crudely transplanting a complete vehicle engine - radiator and all - into a hull, and then proceeds to work through the problems which will or may be encountered. In the process he covers the issues of heat exchangers, keel cooling, engine oil cooling, gearbox cooling, sound insulation, and many others. There are tables of cooling pipe diameters, thrust bearing selection, vee-belt/chain selection and so on .... There are also extensive look-up tables (some technical, some cook- book) for calculating propellor sizes and their theoretical efficiency, and Warren discusses how prop diameter can be traded against pitch (and vice-versa) to best match each vessel's requirements. The book covers the full range of marine applications, from small inland-waters runabouts to 30 knot power boats, as well as displacement sailboats. In my view, it's certainly worth a read. Colin| 5452|5168|2004-09-14 07:02:45|sae140|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Greg, > 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of > all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger > being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to > know that the analysis was rubbish. > > Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what > was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end > up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern has > been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by the > UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the > availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used > inappropriately. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > Ted I'd just like to hook onto the back of what Ted wrote about FEA software and it's use - but first, a brief explanation about the context of what follows in this post: I was recently engaged in a 3-way discussion about OrigamiBoat design with 2 guys who sail traditionally-framed steel boats. One of these guys was concerned about the puncture resistance and hull repair issue, and what follows here is the reply of the other guy, a professional stress engineer who does some work for NASA, so I guess he knows his business (!) It's worth pointing out that in both of these replies he clearly doesn't have a full appreciation of the finer points of the origami method of construction (yet). Nevertheless, I hope you find some of what he writes to be of interest in the ongoing stress/FEA debate. REPLY BEGIN: [.....], here's a slightly expanded critique of the answer I put up on the PBO website (I partly answered there because some of it may have wider interest than just the three of us). In general, making a boat frameless doesn't make it significantly more vulnerable to localised damage than a framed boat. Where the hull is punctured by an object, the likelihood of it going through is dependant on four main factors. The impact energy (vessel speed & weight dependant), the plating thickness, the degree by which the plating is supported and the size of the impact area. The way these factors affect the damage are basically as below:- 1) More impact energy = more likelihood of hole. 2) Thinner plate = more likelihood of hole. 3) Plating support. This is a difficult one. The stiffer the support the less energy the plate will absorb by bending before a hole appears. This effect is counteracted by the extra strength of the whole structure - so it may be strong enough not to be punctured regardless. There is no general solution to this problem - it's got to be looked at for each thickness/frame/stringer pitch combination. I wish this were not the case, and it were possible to tabulate it, as doing so would make my life as a stress engineer much simpler. 4) The larger the impact area, the less likely a hole is as more energy can be dissipated over a large area. So, where has that got us ? Nowhere so far. Basically, origami boats fall within the range of steel boat designs. Depending on the size, a frameless design may be better. I think (with only having done accurate calculation for one size of boat), that the frameless style will be better at resisting damage than framed boats at heavy displacement, smaller sized boats. This is because the hull is not so stiff, so more of the structure will deflect to absorb energy. Having said that, small steel boats show a general increase in relative strength compared to large vessels anyway, so the effect would be very difficult to extract. For larger boats, the frameless construction will need to have thicker plating for the same puncture resistance than a framed boat as the unsupported plate area is larger. When you get up to the size of ships, they are all framed as it's uneconomic to make the thickness of the plating resist the other factors that come into play (local buckling etc). Once you have a hole, is an origami boat more likely to suffer a catastrophic structural failure than a framed boat? The answer is yes, but it's still not very likely. On a framed boat the frames, stringers and chines will tend to act as crack stoppers (not present in the frameless construction), and the built-in stresses in a hard chine steel boat will be less than in an origami boat, so the crack is less likely to grow by releasing the built in energy of the distorted plate. However, only someone with zero knowledge of history would use the sort of brittle steel which needs crack stoppers. Due to the increased energy of distortion of the plate, the critical crack length for complete failure of an origami boat will be less than in a framed boat (everything else being equal - an impossible caveat!). Assuming you have a vessel with a hole in it, is an origami boat more difficult to repair? I don't believe so. The patch wouldn't have the same built in stresses as the rest of the hull, so there may be some residual twist/ unfairness as a result. Think - most cars these days use a frameless monocoque construction, and they can be repaired to their original strength and shape. Also, a correctly carried out butt weld is as strong as the parent metal, so the only source of potential weakness is the HAZ (which, with good procedures is not a problem either). Where I do have difficulty with origami boats is the comparitively poor reinforcing at the bow seam. In a head on impact the seam is well supported by the plating aft of the seam, so it's very stiff. BUT it isn't very strong. There is none of the brute strength you find in a design with a keel bar which goes up the stem. Consequently the seam is inadequately supported and it is also constrained so that the only mode of energy absorption is fracture. Not good, especially as it's the line where there is a potentially brittle weld (not a problem with good welding procedures). The other big area of concern is the lack of continuity between the keel, skeg and the hull. It is not good engineering practice to stick long appendages perpendicular to a plate without some form of structural continuity between the two. It would be relatively easy to repeat what happened to Tony Bulimore in the Southern Ocean a few years back. Origami boats are not the only culprits here. Some of the skegs on the more modern looking Bruce Roberts boats are stuck on like afterthoughts too. In conclusion, Origami boats, I think, are almost as good as normal boats if built properly. They are more vulnerable to poor build quality though, and will show a greater reduction in safety than a framed boat would for the same reduction in build quality. Follow-up post: Colin, in response to your Origami posts. I had obviously missed the fact that origami boats have longitudinal frames (stringers to most people, but I won't quibble). They make the calculation of local puncture resistance rather easier - to the stage where it is tabulated in reliable stress reference books. As for calculating the strength of the whole hull. Lets say it's not impossible. It just isn't easy. Unless the designer calculates a profile for the vessel when it is complete, the stress shape can be nothing more than a best guess, so the analysis will be 'quite good' rather than accurate - and a certain extra margin of safety will have to be incorporated to cover the degree of uncertainty. The problems associated with 3D finite element stress analysis of boats are not really down to the complexity of the shape or structure, but two problems: 1) The difficulty of defining realistic load cases and 2) The appaling quality of the FE modellers. They are nowhere near up to the standard of CAD modellers, so defining the ruling curves in a boat is awful. To try to get around this problem (and a number of others) I have actually written a 'Tools' program to address some of the deficiencies - not least of which is a geometry translator from DXF to the FE package I use. This tool is a mere 4300 lines of C++ code out of the 40000 lines of code in the program (which includes bi-directional translators for DXF, Wavefront OBJ, Stereo lithography STL, Direct X, then verification tools, and data extraction tools). The DXF translator has, in the space of 6 difficult FE jobs, saved me several weeks of modelling and one of the other tools paid for itself in its first six seconds of operation. REPLY END: I'm still trying to track this guy down, to ask him specifically about the keel/skeg/hull interface issue, as he clearly hasn't got the full Origami construction picture yet - but he's a busy fellow, and this might take some time. I'll get back to the group when contact is made. Colin| 5453|5453|2004-09-14 10:30:35|fenixrises|New Engines for sail (sale)|Hi all, Found this cruising the web. These engines appear to be stationary industrial engines. Can probably be converteted to marine. 21 HP YANMAR DIESEL ENGINE 3TNA-72-UJ3E http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004090816114828&item=28- 1484&catname=engines $2,100 USD 23.7 HP YANMAR DIESEL ENGINE http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004090816114828&item=28- 1424&catname=engines $2,200 USD Happy sails to you, Fred| 5454|5454|2004-09-14 10:56:41|fenixrises|Alex and/or Brent...Compilation of information|Hi all, For either Alex or Brent. It would be a good idea to compile all the data for Swain Boats or any others into one folder in the files section. Should include: Folder named for designer and LOA of boat with specifications for that boat. Should also include a subfolder for the material list for that boat. And possibly another subfolder containing pictures. LOA Beam Draft fin and twin SA Ballast weight Construction or dry weight Designed displacment Typical profile view Typical plan view I know some of this information is there, but it is scattered about. Compiling the information would make easier for people to find. Happy sails to you, Fred| 5455|5453|2004-09-14 12:00:33|Bill Jaine|Re: New Engines for sail (sale)|Try this site for some interesting items HYPERLINK "http://www.govliquidation.com/"Government Liquidation Government Surplus Auctions Army Surplus Vehicles Sales Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: fenixrises [mailto:fenixrises@...] Sent: 14-Sep-04 10:30 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] New Engines for sail (sale) Hi all, Found this cruising the web. These engines appear to be stationary industrial engines. Can probably be converteted to marine. 21 HP YANMAR DIESEL ENGINE 3TNA-72-UJ3E HYPERLINK "http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004090816114828&item=28-"http:// www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004090816114828&item=28- 1484&catname=engines $2,100 USD 23.7 HP YANMAR DIESEL ENGINE HYPERLINK "http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004090816114828&item=28-"http:// www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004090816114828&item=28- 1424&catname=engines $2,200 USD Happy sails to you, Fred To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129anhnfv/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1095258637/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/compa nion.yahoo.com"click here HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= :HM/A=2128215/rand=838238127" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/o rigamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5456|5428|2004-09-14 13:04:22|Henri Naths|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|It actually took me a week to learn to do a full penetration weld in all positions to x-ray quality, The process to get there though was 5mo long! It take a little more than knowing how to burn rod to be a welder. Fact is the guys that most likely to fail a C.W.B.(full penetration to x-ray quality) weld test, are pipeline welders. No offence intended. The guys most likely to pass are millwrights. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 13 September, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner I do not know how to weld, I pay my neighbour to do it. My trade when I actually worked for a living is upholstery. I could show someone how to build a dodger for their boat, I have I heck of a time trying to explain or tell someone how to do this. I worked with an old gifted canvas worker for a while and the instruction he gave me can not be found in a book, and frankly the instruction was priceless. So it is not welding but I like quality instruction from a pro. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "fmichael graham" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:24 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner > Richard: > I hope it doesn't offend you if I take issue with your comments but I think that you're undervaluing your contribution to the process of the "making" of a welder. Using the analogy of pipe welding; an instructor taught me how to put in a root bead by using a certain root gap(3/32), with a particular landing. He taught me that, with these parameters, I could drag in a root with 6010. I learned that the result was a faster bead with uniform penetration. The instructor taught me to feather grind my stops to ensure no gaps in penetration, grind out the wagonwheels before the hot pass, and dig & build the hot pass to ensure complete fusion. Now, granted, this is not the technique used by every pipeline welder. My point being that I couldn't have figured this all out on my own and, though they may exist, I have not come across a book that describes in great detail how to put in the correct welds for each type of; process, electrode/wire/rod, joint, metal, etc. > > Books discuss and even offer pictures of welds with poor penetration or fusion, porosity, slag inclusion, undercut, etc., yet, again, I haven't come across one that teaches how to avoid these flaws with each type of weld, etc. . I have met instructors who are "perfect" welders, but can't teach. I have also met instructors who can get the point across with few words &/or a short demo because they can "read" the student's personality & are able to get beyond that student's blank - "I don't have the slightest f*cking idea what he's talking about" - look. I've seen the work of more than a few self-taught welders and - ya know what? - you can tell that their self-taught. > > I think that your selling yourself short, Rich. Without guys like you, the local steel industry would be royally screwed. As far as I am concerned, you can teach someone to weld, just ask some of your past students... or, is this a philosophical point that you & Brent are making, but that I am just not following? Succinctly, I believe that it is the "tricks" that you teach that can't be had from a book. Honestly, I sort of thought that your comments were tongue-in-cheek. > Hope you take this in the spirit it was given. > Thank you, > Mike > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5457|5386|2004-09-14 17:11:36|Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy|Re: Bottom paint|Wouldn't that cause electrolisis? I think I read somewhere about copper bottom paint not being good with steel boats because of that... but for a wooden boat it might be great! Nicole On Sep 10, 2004, at 2:46 PM, fenixrises wrote: Hi all, Cruising around on the web I found a link to this site: http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html The main idea here is to make your own copper/epoxy bottom paint at a fraction of the cost from commercial suppliers. Happy sails to you Fred To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links � To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ � � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com � � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5458|5420|2004-09-14 17:38:36|Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy|Re: Welding of steel boats|Hello, It's useful to me. Honestly I don't know what the heck alot of this means, (root gap?) its still hoodoo voodoo to me, but not forever I hope. Just started my first welding class last night. Found out I have 4 left thumbs. Wondering if anyone can recommend a comprehensive (and comprehendable for a novice) welding book, perhaps the mystery will be revealed... I get the part about gotta have it clean, makes sense. Do you rinse off the degreaser with water? and then wirebrush the edges to be welded? Thanks for the weld grinding tips. I haven't bought plans yet either, gotta learn to weld first! Dreaming the big Freedom boat dream, thank you all for sharing the enormous wealth of your knowledge and experience here on this forum. Nicole On Sep 12, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Mike wrote: To all: I have been giving some thought to the welding of steel boats and thought that I might make a few points for the uninitiated to consider. If anyone feels that I have left anything out or erred in a suggestion, please make subsequent corrections. First; welding is not "hoodoo voodoo", as my wife would say. A properly welded joint on low-carbon steel, with proper pre & post welding preparation will result in a weld that shares the strength of the parent metal. As I have not yet bought plans from Brent Swain, I do not know if he specifies plate preparation/fit-up, weld requirements, & post-weld processes, so, forgive me if any comments made here are superfluous. Some of us, such as myself, may be building in a country that produces steel of less than standard quality. Others may be using recycled steel. Therefore, prior to welding, the joint area should be prepared; 1)using degreasing agents, if dirty, oily, greasy ������������ 2)with a grinder with a wire brush attachment to remove �������������� oxidized surface/zinc coatings/etc. . Pay close �������������� attention to pitted areas. When full penetration is a requirement(and it almost always is) there must be consideration of a suitable root gap and back-grinding or gouging. To do otherwise can compromise the weld strength, resulting in an inferior product. Because of the thin plate used in the construction of these boats and the forces that these welded joints will be under, undercut is an important consideration. Those who plan to weld with low-hydrogen electrodes must take care to keep their rods heated & away from any moisture. Although the majority of welds may be in the flat & horizontal positions, there will be a requirement for vertical & overhead welds and, therefore, the welder must be competent at welding in all positions. After welding, the surface bead should be ground flush for a smooth finish. grinding, due to the heat generated, can alter the structure of metal and cause an otherwise sound weld to be compromised. Therefore, grinding should not be so intense as to alter the colour of the metal(you don't want to see purple/blue metal). Just as important, the grinding pattern should be across the weld, not along it's length. After grinding, the affected area should be coated with an oxidation inhibitor. Hope this is useful to someone. Regards, Mike To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <81804_0704_b_300250a.gif> Yahoo! Groups Links � To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ � � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com � � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5459|5428|2004-09-14 18:00:33|richytill|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|Mike, Not in the least offended. Thanks for the feed back. I understated the role that my instructor played in demonstrating the "basic technique." It was much as you have aptly described. What I have learned from most of my students, most of the time, is that: feedback must be sincere and truthful; more words are not better; too many concepts too soon confuse; they have to experience the feel, sound, sight of the weld for themselves; it takes more time than they think to get it right; they need to self reward and be encouraged for small gains; focusing on error promotes more error; it is critical that they see and sense it done right--right from the start. Perhaps this is where the instructor comes in, the real life demonstration from my instructor right at the begining was the key ingredient in the process. We seem to focus on what to put in to instucting but often it is just as important to know what to leave out. All this said, I'm still learning too. Cheers, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Richard: > I hope it doesn't offend you if I take issue with your comments but I think that you're undervaluing your contribution to the process of the "making" of a welder. Using the analogy of pipe welding; an instructor taught me how to put in a root bead by using a certain root gap(3/32), with a particular landing. He taught me that, with these parameters, I could drag in a root with 6010. I learned that the result was a faster bead with uniform penetration. The instructor taught me to feather grind my stops to ensure no gaps in penetration, grind out the wagonwheels before the hot pass, and dig & build the hot pass to ensure complete fusion. Now, granted, this is not the technique used by every pipeline welder. My point being that I couldn't have figured this all out on my own and, though they may exist, I have not come across a book that describes in great detail how to put in the correct welds for each type of; process, electrode/wire/rod, joint, metal, etc. > > Books discuss and even offer pictures of welds with poor penetration or fusion, porosity, slag inclusion, undercut, etc., yet, again, I haven't come across one that teaches how to avoid these flaws with each type of weld, etc. . I have met instructors who are "perfect" welders, but can't teach. I have also met instructors who can get the point across with few words &/or a short demo because they can "read" the student's personality & are able to get beyond that student's blank - "I don't have the slightest f*cking idea what he's talking about" - look. I've seen the work of more than a few self-taught welders and - ya know what? - you can tell that their self-taught. > > I think that your selling yourself short, Rich. Without guys like you, the local steel industry would be royally screwed. As far as I am concerned, you can teach someone to weld, just ask some of your past students... or, is this a philosophical point that you & Brent are making, but that I am just not following? Succinctly, I believe that it is the "tricks" that you teach that can't be had from a book. Honestly, I sort of thought that your comments were tongue-in-cheek. > Hope you take this in the spirit it was given. > Thank you, > Mike > > > > Richard Till wrote: > Brent, > > At 22 yrs. I decided to go pipline welding. I sought out the best > instructor in the country to obtain API 1104 certification and become coded. > He gave me a small pamphlet to read about pipelines and turned me lose on > a pile of 36" pipe coupons. The words he left me with have stuck: "this is > the basic technique, but I can't teach you how to weld--only you can do > that." Over the next 5 months I hardly ever saw the man, just did more of > what worked and left out what didn't work until the welds were consistent > and to code. I got a job pipeline welding. Now I am a welding instructor > and the same approach applies--I can't teach anyone to weld . . . . > rt > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5460|5428|2004-09-14 18:19:52|richytill|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|Henri, I checked with our local CWB inspector and the most likely CWB test failure is the root bend. This is primarily caused by lack of heat in the first passes. Lack of heat is consistently a problem for those who weld for appearance as priority over complete fusion. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > It actually took me a week to learn to do a full penetration weld in all positions to x-ray quality, The process to get there though was 5mo long! It take a little more than knowing how to burn rod to be a welder. Fact is the guys that most likely to fail a C.W.B.(full penetration to x-ray quality) weld test, are pipeline welders. No offence intended. The guys most likely to pass are millwrights. > H. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 13 September, 2004 9:23 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner > > > I do not know how to weld, I pay my neighbour to do it. My trade when I > actually worked for a living is upholstery. I could show someone how to > build a dodger for their boat, I have I heck of a time trying to explain or > tell someone how to do this. I worked with an old gifted canvas worker for a > while and the instruction he gave me can not be found in a book, and frankly > the instruction was priceless. So it is not welding but I like quality > instruction from a pro. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "fmichael graham" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:24 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner > > > > Richard: > > I hope it doesn't offend you if I take issue with your comments but I > think that you're undervaluing your contribution to the process of the > "making" of a welder. Using the analogy of pipe welding; an instructor > taught me how to put in a root bead by using a certain root gap (3/32), with > a particular landing. He taught me that, with these parameters, I could drag > in a root with 6010. I learned that the result was a faster bead with > uniform penetration. The instructor taught me to feather grind my stops to > ensure no gaps in penetration, grind out the wagonwheels before the hot > pass, and dig & build the hot pass to ensure complete fusion. Now, granted, > this is not the technique used by every pipeline welder. My point being that > I couldn't have figured this all out on my own and, though they may exist, I > have not come across a book that describes in great detail how to put in the > correct welds for each type of; process, electrode/wire/rod, joint, metal, > etc. > > > > Books discuss and even offer pictures of welds with poor penetration or > fusion, porosity, slag inclusion, undercut, etc., yet, again, I haven't come > across one that teaches how to avoid these flaws with each type of weld, > etc. . I have met instructors who are "perfect" welders, but can't teach. I > have also met instructors who can get the point across with few words &/or a > short demo because they can "read" the student's personality & are able to > get beyond that student's blank - "I don't have the slightest f*cking idea > what he's talking about" - look. I've seen the work of more than a few > self-taught welders and - ya know what? - you can tell that their > self-taught. > > > > I think that your selling yourself short, Rich. Without guys like you, the > local steel industry would be royally screwed. As far as I am concerned, you > can teach someone to weld, just ask some of your past students... or, is > this a philosophical point that you & Brent are making, but that I am just > not following? Succinctly, I believe that it is the "tricks" that you teach > that can't be had from a book. Honestly, I sort of thought that your > comments were tongue-in-cheek. > > Hope you take this in the spirit it was given. > > Thank you, > > Mike > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5461|5461|2004-09-14 18:47:46|Gerald Niffenegger|Sand Blasting?|The steel shot arrived the other day so I planned to get the blasting and flame spray out of the way in short order. As a test I blasted some areas with fine sand. It knocked the rust off and left a very smooth shinny surface. The metal is white and no signs of rust. I am fairly sure a courser sand would have left me with the surface that I wanted. I was told by the experts that steel shot was the way to go. Better for your health and removes the rust faster. However, I am getting results from the steel shot that I didn''t expect. I am using a quarter inch nozzle at 100 psi. It is slow going with the steel and it seems to be removing about one half inch per pass. The sand was removing one inch or better per pass. No matter how many passes I make the metal never gets white and never really looks clean. The steel shot is not the same as what I have seen in the past. It looks like very sharp edged sand and not little round ball like shot, which was probably used as a peen shot as well as cleaning? Advice would sure be welcome. Gerald PS I know .... I know .... just use the sand, but I sure would like to get some use out of my investment.| 5462|5428|2004-09-14 21:38:15|Henri Naths|Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner|Richard, I guess the point I was trying to make, was the stats show that the guys that know metal have more consistence success than someone who knows how to do one weld and are not flexible to do the requirements of the day because the parameters have changed, H. ----- Original Message ----- From: richytill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 14 September, 2004 4:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner Henri, I checked with our local CWB inspector and the most likely CWB test failure is the root bend. This is primarily caused by lack of heat in the first passes. Lack of heat is consistently a problem for those who weld for appearance as priority over complete fusion. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > It actually took me a week to learn to do a full penetration weld in all positions to x-ray quality, The process to get there though was 5mo long! It take a little more than knowing how to burn rod to be a welder. Fact is the guys that most likely to fail a C.W.B.(full penetration to x-ray quality) weld test, are pipeline welders. No offence intended. The guys most likely to pass are millwrights. > H. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 13 September, 2004 9:23 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner > > > I do not know how to weld, I pay my neighbour to do it. My trade when I > actually worked for a living is upholstery. I could show someone how to > build a dodger for their boat, I have I heck of a time trying to explain or > tell someone how to do this. I worked with an old gifted canvas worker for a > while and the instruction he gave me can not be found in a book, and frankly > the instruction was priceless. So it is not welding but I like quality > instruction from a pro. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "fmichael graham" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:24 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: un-lurking: new origami boat owner > > > > Richard: > > I hope it doesn't offend you if I take issue with your comments but I > think that you're undervaluing your contribution to the process of the > "making" of a welder. Using the analogy of pipe welding; an instructor > taught me how to put in a root bead by using a certain root gap (3/32), with > a particular landing. He taught me that, with these parameters, I could drag > in a root with 6010. I learned that the result was a faster bead with > uniform penetration. The instructor taught me to feather grind my stops to > ensure no gaps in penetration, grind out the wagonwheels before the hot > pass, and dig & build the hot pass to ensure complete fusion. Now, granted, > this is not the technique used by every pipeline welder. My point being that > I couldn't have figured this all out on my own and, though they may exist, I > have not come across a book that describes in great detail how to put in the > correct welds for each type of; process, electrode/wire/rod, joint, metal, > etc. > > > > Books discuss and even offer pictures of welds with poor penetration or > fusion, porosity, slag inclusion, undercut, etc., yet, again, I haven't come > across one that teaches how to avoid these flaws with each type of weld, > etc. . I have met instructors who are "perfect" welders, but can't teach. I > have also met instructors who can get the point across with few words &/or a > short demo because they can "read" the student's personality & are able to > get beyond that student's blank - "I don't have the slightest f*cking idea > what he's talking about" - look. I've seen the work of more than a few > self-taught welders and - ya know what? - you can tell that their > self-taught. > > > > I think that your selling yourself short, Rich. Without guys like you, the > local steel industry would be royally screwed. As far as I am concerned, you > can teach someone to weld, just ask some of your past students... or, is > this a philosophical point that you & Brent are making, but that I am just > not following? Succinctly, I believe that it is the "tricks" that you teach > that can't be had from a book. Honestly, I sort of thought that your > comments were tongue-in-cheek. > > Hope you take this in the spirit it was given. > > Thank you, > > Mike > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5463|5461|2004-09-14 23:54:13|jim dorey|Re: Sand Blasting?|On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:47:35 -0000, Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > The sand was removing one inch or better per pass. No > matter how many passes I make the metal never gets white and never > really looks clean. tried a sharp angle? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5464|1339|2004-09-15 11:28:54|fenixrises|Re: building times and prices|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " wrote: > hi, > i was wondering how long it would take to build a 26-30 footer, and > what the projected costs would be. i have several friends in the > sheetmetal business, so that would help me out, but would it be > cheaper to build in wood, or fiberglass. any thoughts would be > helpful, thx Hi all, Jeff's question is one that many people ask and is one of the most difficult to answer. Break it into its two parts, time, cost. Time first. This is probably the most difficult to answer. Since there are at least three variables involved and probably more. 1. Financial resources Are you rolling in money or are you scratching for every nickel. (US$0.05) Got enough money you can buy a turn key boat. No money = no boat pretty simple. Is your income large, medium or small? Do you already have a substancial building "nest egg". As you might imagine the interaction of the above values will greatly determine the total time to completion. I would always advise having a "nest egg" equal to 25% of the projected total cost before starting the project. This 25% should be in addition to the amount needed to purchase the materials required for the basic hull and deck structures. One of the principle reasons for this nest egg is to have a ready reserve on hand to enable you to take advantage of good deals if and when presented. 2. Building skills level This is pretty straight forward. If you can not do it someone else will have to and you will probably have to pay them for the work they do. If your time is more valuable than their's then you are ahead of the game. If you have to invest time to learn a building skill then this reduces time available for earning money or boat building. This is one of the main reasons white collar workers do not ususally build boats. They can make more money doing what they do. It is more efficient for them to pay someone else to build a boat or parts of it for them. But this is not only for people to whom time is valuable. Even budget conscience builders would not consider building an engine or a GPS reciever from scratch. Since time = money and money = time it is always to your advantage to make your time as valuable as possible. 3. Time available This relates in many ways to number 1 and number 2 combined. If you have sufficient resources then you can devote more time to the project. Fewer resources requires more time from you to get money by engaging in activities not related to building your boat. Conclusion of the time equation ultimatly relates to resources available and the value of your time. Cost. Estimates shown below do not factor in such things as living expenses or building space rent or fees. Generally this is simple. Everything can be equated to cost per weight. Manufactured goods, especially electronics, are high on this scale. GPS $125 for 1/3 pound. Raw or scrap materials are usually low on the scale. Steel for hull $0.40(?) per pound. A good number to use is the designed displacement of the boat in mind. As an example consider Brent Swain's 36, a popular model and size. Designed displacement about 17,500 lbs. 0r about 8,000kg. Since I am familiar with US dollars and measurements that is what I will use. Consider a pretty basic boat. Complete hull and deck, some form of motive power, interior finished enough to live in, sails and rig sufficient to do basic sailing and necessary equipment for safe vessel operation. For many it would be impossible to fill the above requirements at the rate of $1 per pound = $17,500. At $2 per pound = $35,000 things start to get in the range of possibility. At $3 to $n per pound = $52,000 to ??? it becomes readily to easily possible. Suprising as it may sound these ratios ($1,$2,$3 per pound) hold up pretty well for sailboats in the size range up to 50 feet or so. Of course high tech or larger vessels pretty rapidly get into the $n per pound range. This formula is always good for comparison. It can also be applied to manufactured boats except the cost per pound numbers must be increased to reflect profit and labor. Happy sails to you, Fred| 5465|5168|2004-09-15 12:08:12|spencerj71|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Henri, Seeing that you seem to know how God thinks, could you please tell us how he feels about transverse frames so we can settle this debate. After that, how about keeping your religion off of a boat building group. I'm sure there are plenty of groups for your fire and brimstone. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > "If you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others think again. Every time you criticize someone you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgemental criticism of others is a well known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and hold you to what you've done. > You didn't think did you that just pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all of your misdoings and from coming down on you hard? Or did you think that because he's such a nice God that he'd let you off the hook? Better think this one through from the beginning. God is kind but he is not soft. In kindness he takes us firmly by the hand and leads us into a radical life change. > You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it is going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgement. Make no mistake: in the end you get what's coming to you----real life for those who work on God's side, but those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, fire!!" > > I didn't write it,.... Paul did. > > Henri. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 13 September, 2004 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm > proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la > Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer > remains > > open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to > converse with. > > My email to this group is not intended as conversation. > > > > One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, > which we do > > by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in > origami. We > > are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition > that > > results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, > not just > > steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We > build > > custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs > to a > > single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape > > (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without > increasing > > hull thickness. > > > > If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and > calling us > > names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this > group. It > > helps people understand the difference between us and the status > quo in > > origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from > holidays, and > > I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. > > > > Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not > about to > > compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly > get calls > > and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that > business we > > turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is > involved to > > produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a > production boat, > > and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are > often > > mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told > the > > straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, > and how to > > factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate > from > > finance. > > > > Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of > apples to > > oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good > used boat > > and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did > this, and > > were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to > buy a > > bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often > outgrow their > > original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some > years of > > experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the > money to > > custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Casling" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many > seemingly > > > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like > cut and > > > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your > offshore > > > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the > issue, it > > > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board > also have > > > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed > the > > > ocean > > > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the > salt water > > > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can > however > > > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at > least once a > > > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much > longer. As > > > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat > such as > > > a > > > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. > Others may > > > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with > different > > > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit > more > > > credit > > > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life > does not > > > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of > writing > > > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or > support a > > > point > > > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by > David > > > Lewis > > > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I > have surfed > > > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open > Grand Prix > > > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I > would say > > > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous > messages > > > below. > > > Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > > >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a > seaway. > > > It > > >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely > pleasant. > > >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important > safety > > >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the > boat. > > >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to > something > > >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about > sailing > > >> on > > > a > > >> lake. This is for offshore. > > >> > > >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack > assumed because > > >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog > each day, > > > and > > >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never > will. A > > >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting > you, the > > >> more > > >> likely that it will. > > >> > > >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is > nothing in the > > >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with > my wife > > >> and > > >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How > about you > > >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the > wife and > > > kids > > >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round > the buoys > > >> at > > >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd > enjoy > > > hearing > > >> about your sailing over a beer. > > >> > > >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make > it > > >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent > them from > > >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or > two. > > >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It > doesn't > > >> have > > >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go > offshore. > > > Anyone > > >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go > cruising. > > >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within > 1 year I > > >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and > was > > > cruising > > >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, > with a > > > family, > > >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how > anyone can do > > >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. > > >> > > >> Greg Elliott > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > > >> > > >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter > of public > > >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you > that > > > brought > > >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is > open. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5466|5466|2004-09-15 12:21:31|Gerald Niffenegger|Wave hight program|Here is a program that some of you might find interesting. It shows wave height world wide. Check out the waves west of Florida! http://www.oceanweather.com/data/ Gerald| 5467|5168|2004-09-15 17:28:39|Mike|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Great, that's all we need. First, someone trying to convert us all to Islam & now a Bible-thumper. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > "If you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others think again. Every time you criticize someone you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgemental criticism of others is a well known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and hold you to what you've done. > You didn't think did you that just pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all of your misdoings and from coming down on you hard? Or did you think that because he's such a nice God that he'd let you off the hook? Better think this one through from the beginning. God is kind but he is not soft. In kindness he takes us firmly by the hand and leads us into a radical life change. > You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it is going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgement. Make no mistake: in the end you get what's coming to you- ---real life for those who work on God's side, but those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, fire!!" > > I didn't write it,.... Paul did. > > Henri. > | 5468|5168|2004-09-15 17:36:41|sae140|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Henri, > > Seeing that you seem to know how God thinks, could you please tell us how > he feels about transverse frames so we can settle this debate. "He" ? God is obviously female - that's why women get the multiple orgasms, while us blokes just get to pee standing up .....| 5469|5168|2004-09-15 18:46:20|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Let's give Henri the benefit of the doubt and assume he was just fed up with an arrogant ass and was trying to get the prick back in line. But then again I can't really speak for Henri. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > Henri, > > > > Seeing that you seem to know how God thinks, could you please tell > us how > > he feels about transverse frames so we can settle this debate. > > "He" ? God is obviously female - that's why women get the multiple > orgasms, while us blokes just get to pee standing up ..... | 5470|5420|2004-09-15 19:50:37|johaan2002|Re: Welding of steel boats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: > Hello, > It's useful to me. Honestly I don't know what the heck alot of this > means, (root gap?) > its still hoodoo voodoo to me, but not forever I hope. > Just started my first welding class last night. Found out I have 4 left > thumbs. > Wondering if anyone can recommend a comprehensive (and comprehendable > for a novice) > welding book, perhaps the mystery will be revealed... > I get the part about gotta have it clean, makes sense. Do you rinse > off the > degreaser with water? and then wirebrush the edges to be welded? > Thanks for the weld grinding tips. I haven't bought plans yet either, > gotta learn to weld first! > Dreaming the big Freedom boat dream, thank you all for sharing the > enormous wealth of > your knowledge and experience here on this forum. > Nicole > > On Sep 12, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Mike wrote: > > To all: > I have been giving some thought to the welding of steel boats and > thought that I might make a few points for the uninitiated to > consider. If anyone feels that I have left anything out or erred in > a suggestion, please make subsequent corrections. > > First; welding is not "hoodoo voodoo", as my wife would say. A > properly welded joint on low-carbon steel, with proper pre & post > welding preparation will result in a weld that shares the strength > of the parent metal. > > As I have not yet bought plans from Brent Swain, I do not know if he > specifies plate preparation/fit-up, weld requirements, & post- weld > processes, so, forgive me if any comments made here are superfluous. > > Some of us, such as myself, may be building in a country that > produces steel of less than standard quality. Others may be using > recycled steel. Therefore, prior to welding, the joint area should > be prepared; 1)using degreasing agents, if dirty, oily, greasy >              2)with a grinder with a wire brush attachment to remove >                oxidized surface/zinc coatings/etc. . Pay close >                attention to pitted areas. > > When full penetration is a requirement(and it almost always is) > there must be consideration of a suitable root gap and back- grinding > or gouging. To do otherwise can compromise the weld strength, > resulting in an inferior product. Because of the thin plate used in > the construction of these boats and the forces that these welded > joints will be under, undercut is an important consideration. > > Those who plan to weld with low-hydrogen electrodes must take care > to keep their rods heated & away from any moisture. Although the > majority of welds may be in the flat & horizontal positions, there > will be a requirement for vertical & overhead welds and, therefore, > the welder must be competent at welding in all positions. > > After welding, the surface bead should be ground flush for a smooth > finish. grinding, due to the heat generated, can alter the structure > of metal and cause an otherwise sound weld to be compromised. > Therefore, grinding should not be so intense as to alter the colour > of the metal(you don't want to see purple/blue metal). Just as > important, the grinding pattern should be across the weld, not along > it's length. > > After grinding, the affected area should be coated with an oxidation > inhibitor. > > Hope this is useful to someone. > > Regards, > Mike > > > > > well i can say definately for sure that welding is pretty easy to learn, i have a CWB ticket myself and all positions in AWS FCAW. it jsut came naturally, all the tests were either a coupons to be bent or be x-rayed and then bent.never failed any of them, but i should also say that i had a bit of practice, you know that picking up a book on welding a reading it, and then going to practice is really a good start.. and in most textbooks there are troubleshooting pictures to show you what undercut and improper penetration is... my advice is to go to a highschool or community college and go burn some rod so you can use thier bender to test you welds. really.. it took me a week to get an all position ticket in FCAW (flux core arc welding) about thirteen years after getting my cwb all position stick in HIGH SCHOOL and doing absolutely nothing with it for all of those thirteen years.... so dont be discouraged, the all position pipe ticket is hard and it takes a few tricks to pass... but i can tell you right now absolutely for sure, my high school teacher taught most of my grade 11 class to weld stick in all positions and had a CWB examiner come in to test us... my point is if a group of H.S. kids can do it in one semester only 80 minutes a day.. then so can you.... dont let the fearmongerers get you...my motto is "i can do this because no one told me i cant" all the best people!! jon CWB all position SMAW AWS all position FCAW, AZ (Heavy Truck liscenced) HAM (amateur radio licenced) and some other stuff too... :)| 5471|5471|2004-09-15 21:55:18|kingsknight4life|Best way to put in ballast|Well I've finally got together enough lead to ballast my boat. (approx. 4500 lbs) Most of it is in clean chunks, (50-80 lbs)and 6, 5 gallons buckets full of shavings. About 1200 lbs. is in the form of tire weights, roof flashings, pipes and misc. scrap. This "scrap" is fairly clean. My question is what is the best way to put this into my twinkeeler? Place the chunks/ingots into the keels and then melt the scrap and shavings around it? Melt everything in a cauldron and pour it in? Do you need to prepare the steel before putting in the lead ie. paint it with expoxy? what have the rest of you done to ballast your boats? Thanks, Rowland| 5472|5420|2004-09-15 22:45:24|Ben Tucker|Re: Welding of steel boats|Hi All I have been learning to weld for the last 2 years, and am now at a stage where I am reasonably happy with the appearance and strength of my welds. My fist step was to buy the cheapest stick welder I could find (140 amp buzz box, worked great!) and play with it, with a few mates who could weld to get me started (they both had differnt ideas on what I was doing wrong). I quickly ran out of bits of scap steel to play with, and lost interest in just practicing alone. I saw an Adult ed course on welding and enrolled, Brillant because now I had all the rods, scap and motivation I needed to learn. The instructor would demonstrate a weld and then let us go off and do a few on our own. Watching him had given us an idea of the welding speed, amps and arc gap and sound required as well as what the finished weld should look like. Any problems and he was able to point out things like to long an arc gap, or moving to fast. We did Stick, MIG and Gas welding +gas cutting in 8 evenings. We got to use a lot of machines and at the end of the course on of the welding shop guys bought heaps of welders in for us to try out. I enjoyed the course so much that I have been enrolled a Welding course of one sort for the last 2 years doing more Stick,MIG and TIG welding. These Improved my skills on the difficult welds (vertical and overheads and full penetration) as well as theory. The format for these courses is self paced so all of the 30 or so students are doing different things. I saw a few poeple give up early on because the teachers were abit thin on the ground and couldn't really help them much getting started, because I had done the Adult ed course I was already well ahead of the game, and only needed the tutor to sign of my welds or give me a few tips on the occasional weld. I basically taught myself at my pace using the schools equipment and materials. I found that the couses had given me a good grounding but that welding on real stuff was more difficult, so any course needs to be ballanced by you acually doing stuff at home, I got my opportunity helping a freind build a timber mill out of steel, as he couldn,t weld (I sold him my cheap welder and taught him the basics)He would cut and fit the steel and I would weld it up. Now I have got a better welder, an Auto darkening helmet and have done quite abit of work on my boat i feel I could tackle building a Boat from scatch. I think I could have learnt it all at home or from books but I know that sitting on my own in a workshop with some scap would have boored me and I would have stopped so I am very glad of the course for keeping me going and I now have a bunch of tickets. The cost was bugger all, one of the best investments in time and money i have ever made!. Cheers Ben| 5473|5471|2004-09-16 00:34:30|John Jones|Re: Best way to put in ballast|Lead is a less nobel metal than steel so don't worry about rust TOO MUCH! Butt go for the epoxie anyways and hope enough stays there to make a difference. Golly, why not add the ballast & then heat it just like you would for stress relief and then it's there. Bunker - c first, is a good start . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Well I've finally got together enough lead to ballast my boat. > (approx. 4500 lbs) Most of it is in clean chunks, (50-80 lbs)and 6, > 5 gallons buckets full of shavings. About 1200 lbs. is in the form > of tire weights, roof flashings, pipes and misc. scrap. This "scrap" > is fairly clean. > > My question is what is the best way to put this into my twinkeeler? > Place the chunks/ingots into the keels and then melt the scrap and > shavings around it? Melt everything in a cauldron and pour it in? Do > you need to prepare the steel before putting in the lead ie. paint > it with expoxy? > > what have the rest of you done to ballast your boats? > Thanks, Rowland | 5474|5420|2004-09-16 01:47:44|fmichael graham|Re: Welding of steel boats|Nicole: Sorry it took me so long to respond. Welcome to the Left Thumbs Club!LOL! Every student welder goes through a cyclical process of: a) bad - You hope that the person welding next to you doesn't see your weld, your glove is on fire, and the instructor doesn't say anything when he/she walks past. b) improving - The 3 most commonly spoken words by an instructor are; "it's coming along". Roughly translated, this means: Do another. c) Good - This one is subjective. I have always "moved on" from one competency to another when I have been satisfied that I could consistently put in as good a weld as the instructor. Some, move on as soon as they can get the instructor to O.K. their weld. De-greasers can be as simple as Palmolive & water. It would be a good subject for this group: What is the best de-greaser to have on hand when you're building your boat? Patience & practice are what you need to contribute to the process. The confidence will come as you progress. Good Luck! Mike P.S. Found out what a root, gap, & root gap are, yet? Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: Hello, It's useful to me. Honestly I don't know what the heck alot of this means, (root gap?) its still hoodoo voodoo to me, but not forever I hope. Just started my first welding class last night. Found out I have 4 left thumbs. Wondering if anyone can recommend a comprehensive (and comprehendable for a novice) welding book, perhaps the mystery will be revealed... I get the part about gotta have it clean, makes sense. Do you rinse off the degreaser with water? and then wirebrush the edges to be welded? Thanks for the weld grinding tips. I haven't bought plans yet either, gotta learn to weld first! Dreaming the big Freedom boat dream, thank you all for sharing the enormous wealth of your knowledge and experience here on this forum. Nicole --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5475|5420|2004-09-16 04:42:15|sae140|Re: Welding of steel boats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > De-greasers can be as simple as Palmolive & water. It would be a good subject for this group: What is the best de-greaser to have on hand when you're building your boat? I'm not sure what grease we're talking about (?) - where's it come from ? Are we talking about pickled and oiled steel ? For yer average dirty metal, I find that a quick lick with the angle- grinder is sufficient. For oiled steel, I'd use a kerosene-soaked rag. However if we're talking de-greasing hands, I find the best stuff is washing-up liquid and a small amount of sugar (no water at this stage). Really work this stuff well in, *before* washing off with lukewarm or cold water. Using hot water will only serve to soften the skin, which ain't so good when working with steel. Colin| 5477|5168|2004-09-16 10:19:28|Henri Naths|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Spencer, Thank you for your post, (1) A famous person once said "build it so you can see God in the details" That was Donald Trump. (2) The apostle Paul wrote it in Romans 2 I just relayed the message (3) Sorry,--- some of the antics, (slander and back stabbing ) are so transparent and childish they have become desperate, so much so I was compelled to share some of a few basic principles that has kept us (mankind) on track for the last little while... A word to the wise, a grain of salt if you will. cheers Henri (Ps slander is illegal) ----- Original Message ----- From: spencerj71 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 15 September, 2004 10:06 AM Subject Failures and Accidents Henri, Seeing that you seem to know how God thinks, could you please tell us how he feels about transverse frames so we can settle this debate. After that, how about keeping your religion off of a boat building group. I'm sure there are plenty of groups for your fire and brimstone. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > "If you think that leaves you on the high ground where you can point your finger at others think again. Every time you criticize someone you condemn yourself. It takes one to know one. Judgemental criticism of others is a well known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn't so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and hold you to what you've done. > You didn't think did you that just pointing your finger at others you would distract God from seeing all of your misdoings and from coming down on you hard? Or did you think that because he's such a nice God that he'd let you off the hook? Better think this one through from the beginning. God is kind but he is not soft. In kindness he takes us firmly by the hand and leads us into a radical life change. > You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it is going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgement. Make no mistake: in the end you get what's coming to you----real life for those who work on God's side, but those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, fire!!" > > I didn't write it,.... Paul did. > > Henri. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 13 September, 2004 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm > proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la > Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer > remains > > open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to > converse with. > > My email to this group is not intended as conversation. > > > > One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, > which we do > > by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in > origami. We > > are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition > that > > results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, > not just > > steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We > build > > custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs > to a > > single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape > > (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without > increasing > > hull thickness. > > > > If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and > calling us > > names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this > group. It > > helps people understand the difference between us and the status > quo in > > origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from > holidays, and > > I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. > > > > Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not > about to > > compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly > get calls > > and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that > business we > > turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is > involved to > > produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a > production boat, > > and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are > often > > mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told > the > > straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, > and how to > > factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate > from > > finance. > > > > Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of > apples to > > oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good > used boat > > and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did > this, and > > were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to > buy a > > bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often > outgrow their > > original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some > years of > > experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the > money to > > custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Casling" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many > seemingly > > > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like > cut and > > > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your > offshore > > > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the > issue, it > > > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board > also have > > > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed > the > > > ocean > > > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the > salt water > > > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can > however > > > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at > least once a > > > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much > longer. As > > > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat > such as > > > a > > > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. > Others may > > > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with > different > > > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit > more > > > credit > > > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life > does not > > > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of > writing > > > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or > support a > > > point > > > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by > David > > > Lewis > > > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I > have surfed > > > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open > Grand Prix > > > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I > would say > > > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous > messages > > > below. > > > Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > > > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > > > >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a > seaway. > > > It > > >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely > pleasant. > > >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important > safety > > >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the > boat. > > >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to > something > > >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about > sailing > > >> on > > > a > > >> lake. This is for offshore. > > >> > > >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack > assumed because > > >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog > each day, > > > and > > >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never > will. A > > >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting > you, the > > >> more > > >> likely that it will. > > >> > > >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is > nothing in the > > >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with > my wife > > >> and > > >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How > about you > > >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the > wife and > > > kids > > >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round > the buoys > > >> at > > >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd > enjoy > > > hearing > > >> about your sailing over a beer. > > >> > > >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make > it > > >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent > them from > > >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or > two. > > >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It > doesn't > > >> have > > >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go > offshore. > > > Anyone > > >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go > cruising. > > >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within > 1 year I > > >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and > was > > > cruising > > >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, > with a > > > family, > > >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how > anyone can do > > >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. > > >> > > >> Greg Elliott > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > > >> > > >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter > of public > > >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you > that > > > brought > > >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is > open. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5478|5478|2004-09-16 11:26:40|fenixrises|Creating a pleasing bootstripe|Hi all, Here is a method to create a well proportioned bootstripe with sheer in the top of the stripe. 1. Level the hull both fore and aft and athwartship. 2. Using a water tube or laser level mark the waterline. 3. Measure the length of the waterline from bow to stern. This should be slightly longer than the actual LWL as you are measuring around the curve of the hull. 4. Measure the verticle height from the bow end of the waterline to the sheer. 5. Measure the verticle height from the lowest point of the sheer to the waterline. When you do this place a small mark on the waterline at this location. 6. Measure the verticle height from the stern end of the waterline to the sheer. 7. Get a smooth surfaced scrap piece of anything that will take and show a pencil line. If the waterline length measurement is about 30 feet then the piece of scrap should be about 48 inches long and 12 inches wide. 8. If the scrap has a straight edge this may be used. Otherwise draw a straight line the full length of the scrap close to one of the long edges. 9. Put a verticle line exactly square the long line or edge of scrap at the middle of the line. This will look like a T with a very long top. 10. Divide the measurement from step 3 by 10. Starting from one end of the boat make a mark, in this example, every 3 feet along the waterline. 10. If the waterline is 30 feet long then you will use 30 inches as your base measurement. 11. Divide 30 by 10 = 3 inches. What I am doing here is foreshortening or scaling the length of the waterline at the ratio of 1 foot equal 1 inch. 12. From the initial verticle line in the middle of your scrap draw an additional 10 verticle lines spaced 3 inches apart, 5 towards one end and 5 towards the other end. On very long boats it is necessary to add more points. With 11 points this method works well up to about 45 foot LWL. One end will represent the bow the other end the stern. 13. At the bow end verticle line make a mark above the base line equal to one inch for every foot of the measurement in step 4 plus about 1 & 1/2 inches. 14. Repeat for the stern plus about 1 inch. 15. Repeat for the low point plus about 1/2 inch. Get the distance aft of the bow mark for the low point from step 5, proportioning again at 1 inch equal 1 foot. This is normally around 65% to 75% aft the forward waterline. 16. This makes the bootstripe have a little more sheer than the sheerline itself which is needed to be pleasing to the eye. 17. Use a piece of something with good spring for a fairing batten. It should be about twice as long as your measurement, in this case about 60 inches. Spring it so that it just touches the bow, stern and lowpoint marks. Draw a pencil line along the batten for the full length plus a little. 18. Now at each verticle line you will have a measurment that can be transferred to each corresponding mark on the hull. 19. Using a long batten connect the marks on the hull with a pencil line. It is a good idea to have a batten about 1/2 as long as the waterline length. Also another one or two sets of hands is needed. 20. Often cruising boats sit on or below their designed waterline. Many cruisers paint to the top of the bootstripe with bottom paint. Therefore it may be advisable to raise the top of the bootstripe more than the above method. When transfering the measurements to the hull simply add the same amount to each station mark. In this example, 30 foot waterline, and given normal proportions for the boat it is not usually necessary to add more than one or two inches to the top of the bootstripe. This will generally make the bootstripe 5 to 6 inches higher than the waterline amidships. 21. On boats with counter sterns the marks must be made in the verticle plane. This often necessitates the use of a water bubble level because the underside of the counter is more horizontal than verticle. If the underside of the counter is very horizontal it is sometimes desireable to reduce the width of the bootstripe slightly. I have placed this text file and a bootstripe.gif showing an example of the foreshortened drawing example in a folder named Bootstripe in the origamiboats2 files section. Happy sails to you, Fred P.S. In order to mark the waterline for future reference I have had good results epoxing a short(1 inch) piece of SS or copper wire to the hull at the bow, stern and at each side about amidships.| 5479|5420|2004-09-16 12:49:46|richytill|Re: Welding of steel boats|Ben, good work all around by the sound of it--have fun building. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi All > > I have been learning to weld for the last 2 years, and am now at a > stage where I am reasonably happy with the appearance and strength of > my welds. > > My fist step was to buy the cheapest stick welder I could find (140 > amp buzz box, worked great!) and play with it, with a few mates who > could weld to get me started (they both had differnt ideas on what I > was doing wrong). I quickly ran out of bits of scap steel to play > with, and lost interest in just practicing alone. > > I saw an Adult ed course on welding and enrolled, Brillant because > now I had all the rods, scap and motivation I needed to learn. The > instructor would demonstrate a weld and then let us go off and do a > few on our own. Watching him had given us an idea of the welding > speed, amps and arc gap and sound required as well as what the > finished weld should look like. Any problems and he was able to point > out things like to long an arc gap, or moving to fast. We did Stick, > MIG and Gas welding +gas cutting in 8 evenings. We got to use a lot > of machines and at the end of the course on of the welding shop guys > bought heaps of welders in for us to try out. > > I enjoyed the course so much that I have been enrolled a Welding > course of one sort for the last 2 years doing more Stick,MIG and TIG > welding. These Improved my skills on the difficult welds (vertical > and overheads and full penetration) as well as theory. The format for > these courses is self paced so all of the 30 or so students are doing > different things. I saw a few poeple give up early on because the > teachers were abit thin on the ground and couldn't really help them > much getting started, because I had done the Adult ed course I was > already well ahead of the game, and only needed the tutor to sign of > my welds or give me a few tips on the occasional weld. I basically > taught myself at my pace using the schools equipment and materials. > > I found that the couses had given me a good grounding but that > welding on real stuff was more difficult, so any course needs to be > ballanced by you acually doing stuff at home, I got my opportunity > helping a freind build a timber mill out of steel, as he couldn,t > weld (I sold him my cheap welder and taught him the basics)He would > cut and fit the steel and I would weld it up. > > Now I have got a better welder, an Auto darkening helmet and have > done quite abit of work on my boat i feel I could tackle building a > Boat from scatch. I think I could have learnt it all at home or from > books but I know that sitting on my own in a workshop with some scap > would have boored me and I would have stopped so I am very glad of > the course for keeping me going and I now have a bunch of tickets. > The cost was bugger all, one of the best investments in time and > money i have ever made!. > > Cheers > > Ben | 5480|5461|2004-09-16 13:30:40|Roger Allman|Re: Sand Blasting?|Gerald, In the states media blasting is popular in the auto industry. Esentially they use a course baking soda which is available in bulk quite cheaply. The course grains remove rust very efficiently without the dust and health issues related to sand. Baking soda will not react with the steel and is environmentally very sound. The store bought soda is ground too fine to be of use. I wish I had a link for you. I heard of this talking with a friend who was quite pleased with the results after his yacht was blasted. If you are interested you might try doing a search on "media blasting." --- Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > The steel shot arrived the other day so I planned to > get the blasting > and flame spray out of the way in short order. > As a test I blasted some areas with fine sand. It > knocked the rust > off and left a very smooth shinny surface. The metal > is white and no > signs of rust. I am fairly sure a courser sand would > have left me > with the surface that I wanted. I was told by the > experts that steel > shot was the way to go. Better for your health and > removes the rust > faster. However, I am getting results from the steel > shot that I > didn''t expect. I am using a quarter inch nozzle at > 100 psi. It is > slow going with the steel and it seems to be > removing about one half > inch per pass. The sand was removing one inch or > better per pass. No > matter how many passes I make the metal never gets > white and never > really looks clean. The steel shot is not the same > as what I have > seen in the past. It looks like very sharp edged > sand and not little > round ball like shot, which was probably used as a > peen shot as well > as cleaning? > Advice would sure be welcome. > Gerald > PS I know .... I know .... just use the sand, but I > sure would like > to get some use out of my investment. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 5481|5481|2004-09-16 13:33:25|Henri Naths|oil coolers|Richard, I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for compatibility. Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5482|5481|2004-09-16 18:46:00|johaan2002|Re: oil coolers|you can find a sandwiched, non thermostatically controlled oilcooler that sandwiched between filter and filter base on the front of any GTI (sport model) gas VW, the coolant hoses and necesasry piping to plumb in coolant through the oilcooler (oil over coolant)could also be removed from the GTI golf, i advise a word of caution though, these oilcoolers will retrofit onto any four cylinder gas engine but a certain many (recalled) hadporosity problems and developed oil leaks into the coolant, wich could be harmfull at sea. if you decide to run an external oil cooler you could get an autotech thermostatically controlled sandwich plate that goes between the filter and filter base. it has a small thermally active ball valve that lets oil through to an external oil cooler. be sure to add the appropriate volume of extra oil to fill whatever cooler you use. personally i would go with the oil over coolant oil cooler as opposed to the external one... i would find a good used one or a new one from VW (probably expensive). the less external oil lines the better from a reliability point of view, and from an engine point of view it would help the engine warm up quicker and stabilise oil temps more quickly wich is what it was inteded to to, another thing on VW diesels wich are one of my most favourite engines to work on... beware of used diesel motors from the 80' with dubious histories, the pre burner cups are knife edge thin on one side wich heat cycle, embritle and eventually break off causing cylinder wall scoring, these early diesels' pre burner cups are not interference fit and therefore these heads cant be machined by most shops if they warp. also mid 90's turbo diesels out of MK4 golfs and jettas have weak lower timing belt keyways, they eventually slip after about 300Kkms, causing valve to to piston contact and extensive damage, a good vw diesel mechanic can point out wich engines those are... over all though i wouldnt hesistate at all to take a VW diesel to sea, they are a bulletproof little motor... but they need extremely good fuel filtration as the bosch high pressure pumps are very fussy with water and dirt, also.. if you are going to use starting fluid (ether) do so only as a last ditch effort.. the compression ratios are way to high and you may break a ring land.... just keep good glow plugs in, clean fuel and regular timing belt and oil changes, and these engines have been know to easily hurdle 500K Kms.... damn, i miss my VW diesel....| 5483|5461|2004-09-16 19:00:01|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Sand Blasting?|I haven't gotten back to the blasting to try angles etc. Had an issue with my German made MIG but after using almost a half spool of wire and testing all the bells and whistles I am satisfied with the quality. If I ever do decide to weld Alum. I will have a thousand questions ..... or ....... I will take a crash coarse in the German language and learn how to read the manual. I have seen some of the propaganda that goes with soda blasting. Sounds impressive! There are a couple of problems with soda. One, I am in Brazil and out of the industrial area. The other is that I need a rough surface for the zinc flame spray. I plan to try some different things tomorrow and will keep you posted. Gerald| 5484|5461|2004-09-16 19:24:50|Larry Doyle|Re: Sand Blasting?|Here's a link for soda blasting http://www.americanstripping.com/bsblasting.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Allman" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sand Blasting? > > Gerald, > In the states media blasting is popular in the auto > industry. Esentially they use a course baking soda > which is available in bulk quite cheaply. The course > grains remove rust very efficiently without the dust > and health issues related to sand. Baking soda will > not react with the steel and is environmentally very > sound. The store bought soda is ground too fine to be > of use. > > I wish I had a link for you. I heard of this talking > with a friend who was quite pleased with the results > after his yacht was blasted. If you are interested you > might try doing a search on "media blasting." > > --- Gerald Niffenegger > wrote: > > > > > The steel shot arrived the other day so I planned to > > get the blasting > > and flame spray out of the way in short order. > > As a test I blasted some areas with fine sand. It > > knocked the rust > > off and left a very smooth shinny surface. The metal > > is white and no > > signs of rust. I am fairly sure a courser sand would > > have left me > > with the surface that I wanted. I was told by the > > experts that steel > > shot was the way to go. Better for your health and > > removes the rust > > faster. However, I am getting results from the steel > > shot that I > > didn''t expect. I am using a quarter inch nozzle at > > 100 psi. It is > > slow going with the steel and it seems to be > > removing about one half > > inch per pass. The sand was removing one inch or > > better per pass. No > > matter how many passes I make the metal never gets > > white and never > > really looks clean. The steel shot is not the same > > as what I have > > seen in the past. It looks like very sharp edged > > sand and not little > > round ball like shot, which was probably used as a > > peen shot as well > > as cleaning? > > Advice would sure be welcome. > > Gerald > > PS I know .... I know .... just use the sand, but I > > sure would like > > to get some use out of my investment. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5485|5481|2004-09-16 23:31:54|Michael Casling|Re: oil coolers|That helps clear up something for me. I had heard that the VW diesel had a lot of problems yet I have heard on this board that they are fine. So it would appear that they had problems up to a certain date, fixed them and now the newer ones are okay. Did I get that right? I put an oil cooler on the air cooled race bike and it made a lot of difference. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "johaan2002" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] RE: oil coolers > you can find a sandwiched, non thermostatically controlled oilcooler > that sandwiched between filter and filter base on the front of any > GTI (sport model) gas VW, the coolant hoses and necesasry piping to > plumb in coolant through the oilcooler (oil over coolant)could also > be removed from the GTI golf, i advise a word of caution though, > these oilcoolers will retrofit onto any four cylinder gas engine but > a certain many (recalled) hadporosity problems and developed oil > leaks into the coolant, wich could be harmfull at sea. if you decide > to run an external oil cooler you could get an autotech > thermostatically controlled sandwich plate that goes between the > filter and filter base. it has a small thermally active ball valve > that lets oil through to an external oil cooler. be sure to add the > appropriate volume of extra oil to fill whatever cooler you use. > personally i would go with the oil over coolant oil cooler as > opposed to the external one... i would find a good used one or a new > one from VW (probably expensive). the less external oil lines the > better from a reliability point of view, and from an engine point of > view it would help the engine warm up quicker and stabilise oil > temps more quickly wich is what it was inteded to to, another thing > on VW diesels wich are one of my most favourite engines to work on... > beware of used diesel motors from the 80' with dubious histories, > the pre burner cups are knife edge thin on one side wich heat cycle, > embritle and eventually break off causing cylinder wall scoring, > these early diesels' pre burner cups are not interference fit and > therefore these heads cant be machined by most shops if they warp. > also mid 90's turbo diesels out of MK4 golfs and jettas have weak > lower timing belt keyways, they eventually slip after about 300Kkms, > causing valve to to piston contact and extensive damage, a good vw > diesel mechanic can point out wich engines those are... over all > though i wouldnt hesistate at all to take a VW diesel to sea, they > are a bulletproof little motor... but they need extremely good fuel > filtration as the bosch high pressure pumps are very fussy with > water and dirt, also.. if you are going to use starting fluid (ether) > do so only as a last ditch effort.. the compression ratios are way > to high and you may break a ring land.... just keep good glow plugs > in, clean fuel and regular timing belt and oil changes, and these > engines have been know to easily hurdle 500K Kms.... > damn, i miss my VW diesel.... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5486|5420|2004-09-16 23:35:50|Michael Casling|Re: Welding of steel boats|Do not use the word root loosely in NZ or Ozz, it has a different meaning. Be careful with randy and fanny as well. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "fmichael graham" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding of steel boats > > Nicole: > Sorry it took me so long to respond. Welcome to the Left Thumbs Club!LOL! Every student welder goes through a cyclical process of: > > a) bad - You hope that the person welding next to you doesn't see your > weld, your glove is on fire, and the instructor doesn't say > anything when he/she walks past. > > b) improving - The 3 most commonly spoken words by an instructor are; > "it's coming along". Roughly translated, this means: > Do another. > c) Good - This one is subjective. I have always "moved on" from one > competency to another when I have been satisfied that I could > consistently put in as good a weld as the instructor. Some, > move on as soon as they can get the instructor to O.K. their > weld. > > De-greasers can be as simple as Palmolive & water. It would be a good subject for this group: What is the best de-greaser to have on hand when you're building your boat? > > Patience & practice are what you need to contribute to the process. The confidence will come as you progress. > > Good Luck! > Mike > > P.S. Found out what a root, gap, & root gap are, yet? > > | 5487|5420|2004-09-17 03:43:35|Ben Tucker|Re: Welding of steel boats|The old joke about New Zealanders (called Kiwi's after the national bird) Kiwis eat roots shoots and leaves. I guess with the welding even if you start out all thumbs with welds like birdshit or worse, keep going. Even with the best teachers or books it still comes down to your hand eye co-ordination and technique which only come with practise. Sometimes I get stuck badly on one type of weld and spend weeks going nowhere, then everything just clicks and a great weld appears. Don't give up! It can be hard because alot of our learning these days is by thinking about theory and when you actually have to train your hands to do something it can be frustrating when your trained for thinking about Ideas. I also think that doing some projects at home is very important in the process. Brents idea of welding up the fittings and rudder is great because even if you make a mess of them it's fairly cheap to start again. If it turns out good it gives you a great feeling of satisfaction. It also teaches you about metal fabrication which welding courses often don't cover. Good Welding Ben| 5488|5488|2004-09-17 07:43:18|sae140|FEA - update|Hi - I've managed to make contact with my Stress Engineer friend, who has just sent me the following: "A critique of the models displayed on http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm It is not possible to fully assess the accuracy of the models presented for the following reasons:- a) The author does not indicate the element size relative to the model size. From the shape of the contours, the element size is probably fairly coarse with a low accuracy. Because the models are comparative, provided that all the models exhibit similar element size, this is OK and of little consequence. It is possible that high peak stresses will be missed in the coarse model, but this is not too likely. b) It is not possible to see how the load is applied, and the author gives no indication. It looks to me, from the stress contours given that it's possible that the author may have modelled the keel as two bilge plates with each one applying a moment to the hull plating. I may be doing the author an injustice here though, as the Von Mises stress criterion will give plots similar to that shown when the load is applied correctly too. c) It's hard to get a feel for the models used. Is what's shown the full extent, or a segment of the model? If the whole model is shown, then the model is small enough for edge constraints to be a significant modifyer to the loading. Once again, as they are not shown & the models are not discussed it's impossible to make an assessment of this. d) The author does not state the analysis system used - should we be dubious? It looks to me to be Nastran - but I've never had experience of the system and do not know it's peculiarities. e) The author explicitly states that this is not a real case. However, real proportions would give a result with more immediate applicability to real boats. With real proportions the stiffness of hard points would be proportionately different to those modelled and so the stress concentration factor could be significantly different. This effect is not discussed by the author. Bearing in mind that the assessment cannot be full, due to reasons a to e above, I will now try to make an assessment of the models themselves. 1) Original situation, max stress = 10466 psi. Seems a fair model. The model is of a fully prepared fillet weld around the skeg/keel and the weld has been ground flush. This is a worse case than is likely as no-one would grind the weld back like that. 2) 1x transverse internal support model, max stress = 3374 psi. Seems a fair model. Same caveat as above. 3) 1x transverse internal support and 2x longitudinal internal support, max stress = 1847 psi. The situation being modelled here is starting to be very difficult to build in reality. In practice the point at which the transverse, longitudinal and plating all meet will cause a dangerous crack initiation point. At this point three welds meet and shrinkage of all the welds will almost inevitably cause a crack. As the crack will be in the hull, it could be catastrophic. It would have been better if the author could have modelled a notch in either the lateral or longitudinal supports to prevent this triaxial stress point. 4) Deep floor, stringers & 2x longitudinal supports, max stress = 2826 psi. It strikes me as odd that the peak stress here is higher than in 3). It is possible that the peak stress is a modelling artefact, and if so the author should state this. The area of high stress seems to be small enough to be due to a node not being merged or something similar. 5) Thick deep floor, max stress = 1559 psi. Comments as 4. 6 to 13) I do not think that the later models are representative of any skeg or keel than can realistically be built. The method of construction would, perforce, be making a frame of the skeg/keel and welding it to the underside of the boat, then plating it and hoping that the welder could reach far enough into the keel to be able to weld it up adequately. It is irrational to rely on hope when welding up a keel, so the later models should be seen as an intellectual exercise only, having no real application. Is the analysis valid? Yes, sort of. The biggest problem I have with the data presented is problem e) above. The author has correctly identified an area of concern I had with attaching keels & skegs, and has gone one step futher by putting numbers to the concerns. The alternative designs 2-5 are possible, but unfortunately due to problem e) the alternatives may not be as beneficial as might be hoped. If you fulfil alternatives 3 to 5 exactly as proposed, you may end up actually reducing the seaworthiness of your vessel. Other options include a doubler on the outside of the hull where the keel/skeg attaches. This is used in pressure vessels to reduce the stress concentration effect of hard points in a structure, and would work here. The only problem is that it gives lap joint on the hull, and these are notoriously difficult to prevent from corroding. A final, rather radical, option is to weld the keel on to the hull, then cut through into the keel and attach partial frames around the joint as a secondary operation, turning it into a more conventional keel attachment. Depends on how paranoid you are I suppose! If details are modified, I think options 3 or 4 are the ones to go for to strengthen the hull at the skeg/keel." Hope this illuminates, rather than confuses the issue. Colin| 5489|5168|2004-09-17 11:55:51|Nels Tomlinson|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|Spencer, Henri was quoting a particularly well-spoken version of some very ancient principles. There's little that's really new in Christianity, and that new stuff wasn't what Paul was talking about in that passage. Paul's message is current, too: if you were to replace ``God'' with ``karma'' in that passage, you get a fairly typical new-agey speech. The point that I think Henri was making is that we need to quit picking on one another, and certainly Paul said it better than I could. Since you expressed curiosity about God's position on transverse framing, I'll refer you to the section in Genesis (chapter 6, verses 14-16) in which He designs the Ark for Noah. He is silent on the question of framing, which indicates that the direction in which you run your frames will not affect your relationship with Him. It could affect your relationship with the water. Finally, folks who fly off the handle at the mention of God need to learn to be tolerant of others. Us fundamentalist Christians don't run amuk when atheists express their faith on the list, and we expect the same courtesy from the atheists. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Henri, > > Seeing that you seem to know how God thinks, could you please tell us how > he feels about transverse frames so we can settle this debate. > > After that, how about keeping your religion off of a boat building group. I'm > sure there are plenty of groups for your fire and brimstone. > > - Spencer | 5490|5488|2004-09-17 12:03:13|fmichael graham|Re: FEA - update|Colin: Well, that is a lot to absorb. So, if we act on the belief that "the sky is falling" (vis a vis skeg attachment) and make changes as recommended by Greg Elliott, there is a chance that we may bring the sky down by our own machinations, or, am I making a jump in logic based on your friend's assertions? Thanks for going that extra mile to help us in making a determination on this issue. Regards, Mike sae140 wrote: Hi - I've managed to make contact with my Stress Engineer friend, who has just sent me the following: "A critique of the models displayed on http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm It is not possible to fully assess the accuracy of the models presented for the following reasons:- a) The author does not indicate the element size relative to the model size. From the shape of the contours, the element size is probably fairly coarse with a low accuracy. Because the models are comparative, provided that all the models exhibit similar element size, this is OK and of little consequence. It is possible that high peak stresses will be missed in the coarse model, but this is not too likely. b) It is not possible to see how the load is applied, and the author gives no indication. It looks to me, from the stress contours given that it's possible that the author may have modelled the keel as two bilge plates with each one applying a moment to the hull plating. I may be doing the author an injustice here though, as the Von Mises stress criterion will give plots similar to that shown when the load is applied correctly too. c) It's hard to get a feel for the models used. Is what's shown the full extent, or a segment of the model? If the whole model is shown, then the model is small enough for edge constraints to be a significant modifyer to the loading. Once again, as they are not shown & the models are not discussed it's impossible to make an assessment of this. d) The author does not state the analysis system used - should we be dubious? It looks to me to be Nastran - but I've never had experience of the system and do not know it's peculiarities. e) The author explicitly states that this is not a real case. However, real proportions would give a result with more immediate applicability to real boats. With real proportions the stiffness of hard points would be proportionately different to those modelled and so the stress concentration factor could be significantly different. This effect is not discussed by the author. Bearing in mind that the assessment cannot be full, due to reasons a to e above, I will now try to make an assessment of the models themselves. 1) Original situation, max stress = 10466 psi. Seems a fair model. The model is of a fully prepared fillet weld around the skeg/keel and the weld has been ground flush. This is a worse case than is likely as no-one would grind the weld back like that. 2) 1x transverse internal support model, max stress = 3374 psi. Seems a fair model. Same caveat as above. 3) 1x transverse internal support and 2x longitudinal internal support, max stress = 1847 psi. The situation being modelled here is starting to be very difficult to build in reality. In practice the point at which the transverse, longitudinal and plating all meet will cause a dangerous crack initiation point. At this point three welds meet and shrinkage of all the welds will almost inevitably cause a crack. As the crack will be in the hull, it could be catastrophic. It would have been better if the author could have modelled a notch in either the lateral or longitudinal supports to prevent this triaxial stress point. 4) Deep floor, stringers & 2x longitudinal supports, max stress = 2826 psi. It strikes me as odd that the peak stress here is higher than in 3). It is possible that the peak stress is a modelling artefact, and if so the author should state this. The area of high stress seems to be small enough to be due to a node not being merged or something similar. 5) Thick deep floor, max stress = 1559 psi. Comments as 4. 6 to 13) I do not think that the later models are representative of any skeg or keel than can realistically be built. The method of construction would, perforce, be making a frame of the skeg/keel and welding it to the underside of the boat, then plating it and hoping that the welder could reach far enough into the keel to be able to weld it up adequately. It is irrational to rely on hope when welding up a keel, so the later models should be seen as an intellectual exercise only, having no real application. Is the analysis valid? Yes, sort of. The biggest problem I have with the data presented is problem e) above. The author has correctly identified an area of concern I had with attaching keels & skegs, and has gone one step futher by putting numbers to the concerns. The alternative designs 2-5 are possible, but unfortunately due to problem e) the alternatives may not be as beneficial as might be hoped. If you fulfil alternatives 3 to 5 exactly as proposed, you may end up actually reducing the seaworthiness of your vessel. Other options include a doubler on the outside of the hull where the keel/skeg attaches. This is used in pressure vessels to reduce the stress concentration effect of hard points in a structure, and would work here. The only problem is that it gives lap joint on the hull, and these are notoriously difficult to prevent from corroding. A final, rather radical, option is to weld the keel on to the hull, then cut through into the keel and attach partial frames around the joint as a secondary operation, turning it into a more conventional keel attachment. Depends on how paranoid you are I suppose! If details are modified, I think options 3 or 4 are the ones to go for to strengthen the hull at the skeg/keel." Hope this illuminates, rather than confuses the issue. Colin --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5491|5491|2004-09-17 12:09:59|rbyzitter2001|Re: manifolds.|The act od making a wet (water cooled) manifold is fairly simple. The exhaust gasket makes a perfect template for that end of things. All else that is required is some steel round stock a possibly some square tube. If one looks at the Isuzu 3LB I have forsale http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Marine%203LB1/ one can see the self made manifold in some of the photos.| 5492|5168|2004-09-17 12:33:41|fmichael graham|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|Nels: Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the moderator include religious discussions as a part of the group's focus. It is entirely for this reason that I try not share my religious/spiritual beliefs when posting to this group. By the same token, I am not interested in your views on this subject as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group which deals specifically with this subject matter. Regards, Mike P.S. I hope that it is not me whom you refer to as an atheist, as you have no knowledge of my beliefs. Nels Tomlinson wrote: Spencer, Henri was quoting a particularly well-spoken version of some very ancient principles. There's little that's really new in Christianity, and that new stuff wasn't what Paul was talking about in that passage. Paul's message is current, too: if you were to replace ``God'' with ``karma'' in that passage, you get a fairly typical new-agey speech. The point that I think Henri was making is that we need to quit picking on one another, and certainly Paul said it better than I could. Since you expressed curiosity about God's position on transverse framing, I'll refer you to the section in Genesis (chapter 6, verses 14-16) in which He designs the Ark for Noah. He is silent on the question of framing, which indicates that the direction in which you run your frames will not affect your relationship with Him. It could affect your relationship with the water. Finally, folks who fly off the handle at the mention of God need to learn to be tolerant of others. Us fundamentalist Christians don't run amuk when atheists express their faith on the list, and we expect the same courtesy from the atheists. Nels --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5493|5488|2004-09-17 13:02:42|Henri Naths|Re: FEA - update|Colin, Excellent work, I really appreciate it. I think your friends have done due diligence.As Michael has said, that's a lot to absorb. At the first reading I'm under the inclination further study should be done? Nice one. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 17 September, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] FEA - update Hi - I've managed to make contact with my Stress Engineer friend, who has just sent me the following: "A critique of the models displayed on http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm It is not possible to fully assess the accuracy of the models presented for the following reasons:- a) The author does not indicate the element size relative to the model size. From the shape of the contours, the element size is probably fairly coarse with a low accuracy. Because the models are comparative, provided that all the models exhibit similar element size, this is OK and of little consequence. It is possible that high peak stresses will be missed in the coarse model, but this is not too likely. b) It is not possible to see how the load is applied, and the author gives no indication. It looks to me, from the stress contours given that it's possible that the author may have modelled the keel as two bilge plates with each one applying a moment to the hull plating. I may be doing the author an injustice here though, as the Von Mises stress criterion will give plots similar to that shown when the load is applied correctly too. c) It's hard to get a feel for the models used. Is what's shown the full extent, or a segment of the model? If the whole model is shown, then the model is small enough for edge constraints to be a significant modifyer to the loading. Once again, as they are not shown & the models are not discussed it's impossible to make an assessment of this. d) The author does not state the analysis system used - should we be dubious? It looks to me to be Nastran - but I've never had experience of the system and do not know it's peculiarities. e) The author explicitly states that this is not a real case. However, real proportions would give a result with more immediate applicability to real boats. With real proportions the stiffness of hard points would be proportionately different to those modelled and so the stress concentration factor could be significantly different. This effect is not discussed by the author. Bearing in mind that the assessment cannot be full, due to reasons a to e above, I will now try to make an assessment of the models themselves. 1) Original situation, max stress = 10466 psi. Seems a fair model. The model is of a fully prepared fillet weld around the skeg/keel and the weld has been ground flush. This is a worse case than is likely as no-one would grind the weld back like that. 2) 1x transverse internal support model, max stress = 3374 psi. Seems a fair model. Same caveat as above. 3) 1x transverse internal support and 2x longitudinal internal support, max stress = 1847 psi. The situation being modelled here is starting to be very difficult to build in reality. In practice the point at which the transverse, longitudinal and plating all meet will cause a dangerous crack initiation point. At this point three welds meet and shrinkage of all the welds will almost inevitably cause a crack. As the crack will be in the hull, it could be catastrophic. It would have been better if the author could have modelled a notch in either the lateral or longitudinal supports to prevent this triaxial stress point. 4) Deep floor, stringers & 2x longitudinal supports, max stress = 2826 psi. It strikes me as odd that the peak stress here is higher than in 3). It is possible that the peak stress is a modelling artefact, and if so the author should state this. The area of high stress seems to be small enough to be due to a node not being merged or something similar. 5) Thick deep floor, max stress = 1559 psi. Comments as 4. 6 to 13) I do not think that the later models are representative of any skeg or keel than can realistically be built. The method of construction would, perforce, be making a frame of the skeg/keel and welding it to the underside of the boat, then plating it and hoping that the welder could reach far enough into the keel to be able to weld it up adequately. It is irrational to rely on hope when welding up a keel, so the later models should be seen as an intellectual exercise only, having no real application. Is the analysis valid? Yes, sort of. The biggest problem I have with the data presented is problem e) above. The author has correctly identified an area of concern I had with attaching keels & skegs, and has gone one step futher by putting numbers to the concerns. The alternative designs 2-5 are possible, but unfortunately due to problem e) the alternatives may not be as beneficial as might be hoped. If you fulfil alternatives 3 to 5 exactly as proposed, you may end up actually reducing the seaworthiness of your vessel. Other options include a doubler on the outside of the hull where the keel/skeg attaches. This is used in pressure vessels to reduce the stress concentration effect of hard points in a structure, and would work here. The only problem is that it gives lap joint on the hull, and these are notoriously difficult to prevent from corroding. A final, rather radical, option is to weld the keel on to the hull, then cut through into the keel and attach partial frames around the joint as a secondary operation, turning it into a more conventional keel attachment. Depends on how paranoid you are I suppose! If details are modified, I think options 3 or 4 are the ones to go for to strengthen the hull at the skeg/keel." Hope this illuminates, rather than confuses the issue. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5494|5168|2004-09-17 13:42:59|knutfg|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: Mike, may I throw in my support of your clearly stated view? I fully agree that religious matters, assumptions, accusations or whatever have no place in this forum in any shape or form. That opinion is no indication whatsoever of my views or beliefs regarding spiritual and religious issues (AND THEY DON'T BELONG HERE). Please show a minimum of respect and restriction as to what is posted in relation to what the forum is all about!! Knut| 5495|5168|2004-09-17 13:51:43|Henri Naths|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|Mike {Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the moderator include back stabbing and slander as a part of the group's focus. It is entirely for this reason that we try not share our (" religious/spiritual beliefs") when posting to this group. By the same token, we are not interested in your views on this subject (condoning such behavior) as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group which deals specifically with this subject (back stabbing and slander)} Unfortunately some have taken justification of such behavior to a " religious" fervor. H ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 17 September, 2004 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents Nels: Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the moderator include religious discussions as a part of the group's focus. It is entirely for this reason that I try not share my religious/spiritual beliefs when posting to this group. By the same token, I am not interested in your views on this subject as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group which deals specifically with this subject matter. Regards, Mike P.S. I hope that it is not me whom you refer to as an atheist, as you have no knowledge of my beliefs. Nels Tomlinson wrote: Spencer, Henri was quoting a particularly well-spoken version of some very ancient principles. There's little that's really new in Christianity, and that new stuff wasn't what Paul was talking about in that passage. Paul's message is current, too: if you were to replace ``God'' with ``karma'' in that passage, you get a fairly typical new-agey speech. The point that I think Henri was making is that we need to quit picking on one another, and certainly Paul said it better than I could. Since you expressed curiosity about God's position on transverse framing, I'll refer you to the section in Genesis (chapter 6, verses 14-16) in which He designs the Ark for Noah. He is silent on the question of framing, which indicates that the direction in which you run your frames will not affect your relationship with Him. It could affect your relationship with the water. Finally, folks who fly off the handle at the mention of God need to learn to be tolerant of others. Us fundamentalist Christians don't run amuk when atheists express their faith on the list, and we expect the same courtesy from the atheists. Nels --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5496|5168|2004-09-17 14:15:17|Henri Naths|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 17 September, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents Mike {Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the moderator include (back stabbing and slander) as a part of the group's focus. It is entirely for this reason that we try not share our ("back stabbing and slander") when posting to this group. By the same token, we are not interested in your views on this subject (condoning such behavior) as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group which deals specifically with this subject (back stabbing and slander)} Unfortunately some have taken justification of such behavior and make it their " religious" fervor. H ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 17 September, 2004 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents Nels: Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the moderator include religious discussions as a part of the group's focus. It is entirely for this reason that I try not share my religious/spiritual beliefs when posting to this group. By the same token, I am not interested in your views on this subject as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group which deals specifically with this subject matter. Regards, Mike P.S. I hope that it is not me whom you refer to as an atheist, as you have no knowledge of my beliefs. Nels Tomlinson wrote: Spencer, Henri was quoting a particularly well-spoken version of some very ancient principles. There's little that's really new in Christianity, and that new stuff wasn't what Paul was talking about in that passage. Paul's message is current, too: if you were to replace ``God'' with ``karma'' in that passage, you get a fairly typical new-agey speech. The point that I think Henri was making is that we need to quit picking on one another, and certainly Paul said it better than I could. Since you expressed curiosity about God's position on transverse framing, I'll refer you to the section in Genesis (chapter 6, verses 14-16) in which He designs the Ark for Noah. He is silent on the question of framing, which indicates that the direction in which you run your frames will not affect your relationship with Him. It could affect your relationship with the water. Finally, folks who fly off the handle at the mention of God need to learn to be tolerant of others. Us fundamentalist Christians don't run amuk when atheists express their faith on the list, and we expect the same courtesy from the atheists. Nels --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5497|5168|2004-09-17 14:52:27|Mike|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|Henri: Think before you respond. I did not, nor do I, condone back stabbing and slander. Grow up. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Mike > {Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the moderator include back stabbing and slander as a part of the group's focus. It is entirely for this reason that we try not share our (" religious/spiritual beliefs") when posting to this group. By the same token, we are not interested in your views on this subject (condoning such behavior) as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group which deals specifically with this subject (back stabbing and slander)} > > Unfortunately some have taken justification of such behavior to a " religious" fervor. > H | 5498|5168|2004-09-17 17:23:37|Mike|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Flames, Failures and Accidents|Henri, et al: In respect for the other members let's agree to disagree and move on, shall we? Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Henri: > Think before you respond. I did not, nor do I, condone back stabbing > and slander. Grow up. > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Mike > > {Nowhere in the introductory message for this group does the > moderator include back stabbing and slander as a part of the group's > focus. It is entirely for this reason that we try not share our (" > religious/spiritual beliefs") when posting to this group. By the > same token, we are not interested in your views on this subject > (condoning such behavior) as it is "off-topic". Perhaps, this is an > opportunity for you and other interested members to form a group > which deals specifically with this subject (back stabbing and > slander)} > > > > Unfortunately some have taken justification of such behavior > to a " religious" fervor. > > H | 5499|5499|2004-09-17 17:52:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Henri, Religion & other nonesense|Henry, you have a very nice boat. So enjoy it and take the riligious garbage elsewhere. I'm sure there are many sites where it will be appreicated. Here it is simply NOT appropriate and I for one find it insulting to my intelect. Take it elsewhere Thanks, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5500|5500|2004-09-17 18:27:06|Mike|A boat of my own with tender considerations|All: I have been considering building a 40'boat of the Swain design with; an aft cabin, small deep-well centre cockpit, a ketch, cutter rig - or along the lines of Yago's rig - a bowsprit, twin keel. Probable, possible, not a chance? The engine can be an outboard but I'd want a place to put it when at sea. Mike| 5501|5471|2004-09-17 18:31:28|brentswain38|Re: Best way to put in ballast|You can do it either way. With chunks, you can put a layer of them in the keel , then melt the shavings around them with a tiger torch. Just be carefull with the fumes . Using a cheap rubber mask with check valves ,hooked up to hose leading outside works best.Once in your body lead never leaves. and it's real nasty stuff.As most of your storage area is aft, try to get some of it piled up a bit further foreward. If a boat hits the water a bit low in the bow, the stern will always go down once you get all your stuff aboard. Never pour hot lead in an aluminium keel. Gunter did and warped the hell out of it. Steel keels don't seem to mind molten lead all that much, altho tacking in a cross bar halfway up and 8 inches back from the leading edge will stop the tendency of the keels to suck in a bit there when they get hot. Make sure you get enough heat in to avoid voids. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Well I've finally got together enough lead to ballast my boat. > (approx. 4500 lbs) Most of it is in clean chunks, (50-80 lbs)and 6, > 5 gallons buckets full of shavings. About 1200 lbs. is in the form > of tire weights, roof flashings, pipes and misc. scrap. This "scrap" > is fairly clean. > > My question is what is the best way to put this into my twinkeeler? > Place the chunks/ingots into the keels and then melt the scrap and > shavings around it? Melt everything in a cauldron and pour it in? Do > you need to prepare the steel before putting in the lead ie. paint > it with expoxy? > > what have the rest of you done to ballast your boats? > Thanks, Rowland | 5502|5471|2004-09-17 18:37:16|brentswain38|Re: Best way to put in ballast|Epoxy would simply burn out. As long as you weld an airtight steel cap on your ballast after it's in ,there will be no corrosion as there will not be enough oxygen to cause it. If you don't trust your welds, a bit of diesel poured on top of your ballast before sealing it of will stop any oxygen reaching it. That is how they sealed the oxygen out of the swamps to stop the mosquitoes while they built the Panama Canal. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Lead is a less nobel metal than steel so don't worry about rust TOO MUCH! > Butt go for the epoxie anyways and hope enough stays there to make a > difference. Golly, why not add the ballast & then heat it just like you would > for stress relief and then it's there. Bunker - c first, is a good start . > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > Well I've finally got together enough lead to ballast my boat. > > (approx. 4500 lbs) Most of it is in clean chunks, (50-80 lbs)and 6, > > 5 gallons buckets full of shavings. About 1200 lbs. is in the form > > of tire weights, roof flashings, pipes and misc. scrap. This "scrap" > > is fairly clean. > > > > My question is what is the best way to put this into my twinkeeler? > > Place the chunks/ingots into the keels and then melt the scrap and > > shavings around it? Melt everything in a cauldron and pour it in? Do > > you need to prepare the steel before putting in the lead ie. paint > > it with expoxy? > > > > what have the rest of you done to ballast your boats? > > Thanks, Rowland | 5503|5461|2004-09-17 18:41:32|brentswain38|Re: Sand Blasting?|Start with the steel to get the bulk of the rust off,and to get your moneys worth and avoid most of the dust, then finish with the sand . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roger Allman wrote: > Gerald, > In the states media blasting is popular in the auto > industry. Esentially they use a course baking soda > which is available in bulk quite cheaply. The course > grains remove rust very efficiently without the dust > and health issues related to sand. Baking soda will > not react with the steel and is environmentally very > sound. The store bought soda is ground too fine to be > of use. > > I wish I had a link for you. I heard of this talking > with a friend who was quite pleased with the results > after his yacht was blasted. If you are interested you > might try doing a search on "media blasting." > > --- Gerald Niffenegger > wrote: > > > > > The steel shot arrived the other day so I planned to > > get the blasting > > and flame spray out of the way in short order. > > As a test I blasted some areas with fine sand. It > > knocked the rust > > off and left a very smooth shinny surface. The metal > > is white and no > > signs of rust. I am fairly sure a courser sand would > > have left me > > with the surface that I wanted. I was told by the > > experts that steel > > shot was the way to go. Better for your health and > > removes the rust > > faster. However, I am getting results from the steel > > shot that I > > didn''t expect. I am using a quarter inch nozzle at > > 100 psi. It is > > slow going with the steel and it seems to be > > removing about one half > > inch per pass. The sand was removing one inch or > > better per pass. No > > matter how many passes I make the metal never gets > > white and never > > really looks clean. The steel shot is not the same > > as what I have > > seen in the past. It looks like very sharp edged > > sand and not little > > round ball like shot, which was probably used as a > > peen shot as well > > as cleaning? > > Advice would sure be welcome. > > Gerald > > PS I know .... I know .... just use the sand, but I > > sure would like > > to get some use out of my investment. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com | 5504|5481|2004-09-17 18:45:07|brentswain38|Re: oil coolers|I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the engine could have a temperature which is one degree different from that of the engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions are different and use an aluminium box with water flowing thru it bolted to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Richard, > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for compatibility. > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5505|5505|2004-09-17 18:55:15|brentswain38|portable welders|I just hooked up a 100 amp dodge alternator with the two leads from my starting battery going directly to the field, with a 65 watt halogen bulb in the positive feed line ( To avoid overloading the field windings)I hooked a stinger cable to the positive and did all my welding projects this morning. It worked well and will enable me to weld anywhere.I can regulate the amps with the rpm of my engine. The alternator cost me $35 in an autowreckers, the same as a 35 amp alternator. Perhaps a 150 amp job costs the same, but I'd probably have to use a bigger bulb to give more power to the field. It cost me less than a day's rental on a portable welder so at the moment owes me nothing. Brent| 5506|5506|2004-09-17 18:59:49|brentswain38|Aluminium antifouling|I just met a friend who was scraping his aluminium 40 footer for the third time this year. He told me that Internationlal antifouling , the only one compatible with aluminium ,is half the strength it used to be and three times the price. He said a friend in Seattle has been using a mixture of LPS and tetracycline for years with some success. What are you aluminium boat guys using now? Any new ideas? Brent| 5507|5447|2004-09-17 19:05:42|brentswain38|Re: Stretch a 26 or compress a 32 or 36?|A centre cockpit in anything under 36 is cramped altho some would say anything under 40 ft. It may soon be time for me to design a 28 footer.You could scale the 26 footer up by 12% and not throw things too much out of whack with the law of mechanical simlitude.This could be done by enlarging the plate drawings on a photocopier , then re working the dimensions by scale. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tronfixr" wrote: > Thanks Mike. I found it as soon as I posted- also 31 vise 32. Batting > a hundred tonight... > > Cheers, > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > wrote: > > Mike: > > See the files section to find out about ordering plans. > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > tronfixr wrote: > > Hello Brent, > > I was wondering about the possibility to convert a set of plans to 28'. > > I'd like something my truck can pull out of the water- 26' is a little > > light and the 32' is a little heavy. A center cockpit would be nice as > > well and in a previous message you had mentioned 26 may be a little > > small for that. > > > > On a second note, I don't see instructions on ordering your plans. > > Would they be somewhere in this forum? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5508|5386|2004-09-17 19:10:41|brentswain38|Re: Bottom paint|The important thing with antifouling is to make sure that there is plenty of epoxy and thus no electrical contact between your steel and copper bottom paint.With copper paint , things below the waterline rust a bit more than they did with TBTF, but not in any serious way. Make sure you never put copper paint on any bare steel. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: > Wouldn't that cause electrolisis? I think I read somewhere about > copper bottom paint not being good with steel boats because of that... > but for a wooden boat it might be great! Nicole > > On Sep 10, 2004, at 2:46 PM, fenixrises wrote: > > Hi all, > Cruising around on the web I found a link to this site: > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html > > The main idea here is to make your own copper/epoxy bottom paint at a > fraction of the cost from commercial suppliers. > > Happy sails to you > Fred > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >   > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5509|5481|2004-09-17 19:17:09|Richard Till|Re: oil coolers|Brent, that seems logical and I too was surprised to see the water temp hold steady at 173 F while the oil pushed up to 235 F. There must be a reason for this. I welded a chamber in the back of the keel for a transmission cooler and it works well. rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:45:05 -0000 > >I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the engine could >have a temperature which is one degree different from that of the >engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions are >different and use an aluminium box with water flowing thru it bolted >to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. > Brent > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >wrote: > > Richard, > > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to >Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He >told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a >G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the >oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for >compatibility. > > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > > Henri > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5510|2910|2004-09-17 19:24:46|fenixrises|Re: on the subject of sails|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Has anyone tried twin foresails on twin (parallel) forestays? I read > about a boat called "Beyond" (aluminum hull) with this arrangement. > Pictures looked impressive. Apparently sailed well downwind. > Seemingly, the extra stay acts as a back up too. Obvious > disadvantage would be more wheight aloft and more windage. rt Hi all, Back in the 70's there was an idea that someone developed into a patented system for twin headsails. This was well before the concept of cruising spinnakers. The main idea was to have one sail that looked like twin headsails but shared a common luff. This was attached to a furling mechanism to control the amount of sail set. The system utilized two poles, usually mounted to a track mounted slide on the mast. Easy in, easy out. Needless to say buying the required hardware off the shelf was not cheap. The originater designed the system for his own boat and tested it extensively. He was quite happy with it and eventually developed the entire system into a business. If you supplied the measurements his company would furnish a complete system. You could also sail with the twin sail on one side of the boat, rather like a high clewed drifter. The sails were made from nylon probably 1.5 oz. The sails were attached to a wire stay in the luff and set behind the head stay. If I remember correctly, when not in use the sail could be dropped and stowed. I suspect the luff wire made this a bit unwieldly. Happy sails to you, Fred| 5511|2910|2004-09-17 22:01:50|Ben Tucker|Re: on the subject of sails|Hi RT and fred, We had a pretty good look at this topic last year some time with the two options being to put them side by side or fore and aft, there are disadvantages and advantages to both but on ballance I think the Fore and aft works better allround. The search mechanism is pretty rubbish on the yahoo site. I was thinking of making up a bit of an Index to topics at some stage (next year when my boats back together-ish) as there is a huge amount of information just buried in this group. Any ideas as to the best format, I was just thinking of a text document with topics indexed to the message numbers. any thoughts or volunteers to help? Cheers Ben| 5512|2910|2004-09-17 23:00:14|fenixrises|Re: on the subject of sails|Hi Ben I just found this site a short while ago and have been spending my free time looking at the posts from the begining. There's a lot of info so it takes a while to go through. I am up in the # 3000 range now as well as keeping abreast of the new posts. I started my involvement in sailing and building boats in the mid 70's. I wish this method "Origami" had been well known back in the early 80's, it would have changed my boatbuilding ideas. I know my reply is to an older post, I read the whole thread and added this information. As for indexing the info it would be simple but very time consuming. Probably best done in in one large file based on an HTML format similar to the Help systems used in most software. If the file was kept updated it could be stored in a zipped format in the files section and downloaded by anyone. People could then view the information through their browser offline. Happy sails to you, Fred > We had a pretty good look at this topic last year some time with the > two options being to put them side by side or fore and aft, there are > disadvantages and advantages to both but on ballance I think the Fore > and aft works better allround. > > The search mechanism is pretty rubbish on the yahoo site. I was > thinking of making up a bit of an Index to topics at some stage (next > year when my boats back together-ish) as there is a huge amount of > information just buried in this group. Any ideas as to the best > format, I was just thinking of a text document with topics indexed to > the message numbers. any thoughts or volunteers to help? > > Cheers > > Ben | 5513|5513|2004-09-17 23:27:02|fenixrises|Power generation|Hi all, I have been reading through the old posts and just finished some of the comments on wind and water generating. Here's a different thought. Auto engine flywheels have a ring gear on the outside edge, this is engaged by the pinion gear on the starter motor to start the engine. Typically flywheels for an automatic transmission are thin plate with the ring gear fitted to the plate. Manual transmission flywheels are typically machined from a casting with the ring gear either machined into the casting or added afterwards similar to A/T flywheels. I do not know which would be better for my example. The A/T flywheel would be lighter and the M/T flywheel would have more inertia once moving. What I have in mind is mounting the flywheel to an alloy plate which would also hold a small DC? generator. The pinion gear from the started motor would be fitted to the shaft of the small generator and held by the alloy plate so the pinion gear engaged the ring gear. So how to power this device? Don't shoot me, here goes. Small boat sailors are generally in pretty good shape, but their legs often do not get a lot of exersize. So the above rig would be set up with bicycle pedals. Set it up across the width of the cockpit. If the generator motor where sized properly you could get a good work out and provide yourself with some electricity. 100 watts per hour or more may be realistically generated, that's 4 amps @ 12 volts for 24 hours. With frictional losses that's about 1/7 hoursepower developed per hour. That should not be too much strain for a human being. But then again that maybe a lot of work for cruising. ;0) Happy sails to you, Fred| 5514|5481|2004-09-18 05:33:52|denis buggy|Re: oil coolers|dear all re temp of oil in any decent engine oil is sprayed from jets in the crankcase up wards and into the skirt of the piston which is much hotter than the block or shaft . in order to keep the castiron insert in the piston stable and all other metal parts at their designed tolerances the only liquid you can use to cool the guts of an engine is oil and the oil has a narrow temp field to work properly as has the engine which runs like shit when cold and is built to "grow "as it gets warmer and behave as it should . i would weld a box to the floor of the boat and allow the floor to cool it or make a worm out of piping and weld two hydralic connections to each end for your cheap hydralic hose to screw on to . you can always take the sump off and weld a lot of fins to it and make it the oil cooler as many engine makers do . regards denis----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the engine could have a temperature which is one degree different from that of the engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions are different and use an aluminium box with water flowing thru it bolted to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Richard, > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for compatibility. > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5515|5513|2004-09-18 05:44:52|denis buggy|Re: Power generation|dear fred your ring gear on the fly wheel is not lubricated and will not do the business for you use. the belt drive pulley on the front of the crank or if it needs major horses bolt a shaft to the front pulley and run it like most small trucks run a fridge unit . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: fenixrises To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Power generation Hi all, I have been reading through the old posts and just finished some of the comments on wind and water generating. Here's a different thought. Auto engine flywheels have a ring gear on the outside edge, this is engaged by the pinion gear on the starter motor to start the engine. Typically flywheels for an automatic transmission are thin plate with the ring gear fitted to the plate. Manual transmission flywheels are typically machined from a casting with the ring gear either machined into the casting or added afterwards similar to A/T flywheels. I do not know which would be better for my example. The A/T flywheel would be lighter and the M/T flywheel would have more inertia once moving. What I have in mind is mounting the flywheel to an alloy plate which would also hold a small DC? generator. The pinion gear from the started motor would be fitted to the shaft of the small generator and held by the alloy plate so the pinion gear engaged the ring gear. So how to power this device? Don't shoot me, here goes. Small boat sailors are generally in pretty good shape, but their legs often do not get a lot of exersize. So the above rig would be set up with bicycle pedals. Set it up across the width of the cockpit. If the generator motor where sized properly you could get a good work out and provide yourself with some electricity. 100 watts per hour or more may be realistically generated, that's 4 amps @ 12 volts for 24 hours. With frictional losses that's about 1/7 hoursepower developed per hour. That should not be too much strain for a human being. But then again that maybe a lot of work for cruising. ;0) Happy sails to you, Fred To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5516|2910|2004-09-18 10:16:31|Henri Naths|Re: on the subject of sails|Hey Ben, I some info indexed since 02. I certainly would be glad to be of any assistance ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Tucker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 17 September, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: on the subject of sails Hi RT and fred, We had a pretty good look at this topic last year some time with the two options being to put them side by side or fore and aft, there are disadvantages and advantages to both but on ballance I think the Fore and aft works better allround. The search mechanism is pretty rubbish on the yahoo site. I was thinking of making up a bit of an Index to topics at some stage (next year when my boats back together-ish) as there is a huge amount of information just buried in this group. Any ideas as to the best format, I was just thinking of a text document with topics indexed to the message numbers. any thoughts or volunteers to help? Cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5517|5481|2004-09-18 13:02:36|johaan2002|Re: oil coolers|yeah , the engines have had thier teething problems throughout the development of the engine to what it is today...turbo variants ant the Turbo Direct Injection engine of today.. all based on the same block and also shared with the audi TT and A4!! but on to a bit about oil... oil in a motor, specifically the hydrodynamic wedge at the bottom of a connecting rods' thrust face, is the single most stressed part in an engine..the oil in an engine raises temperature more quickly than any other part (yes even quicker than the combustion chamber) high performance cars rely on oil cooling for at least 50% of thier heat dissipation... the porsche 911 uses 17 litres of oil and uses this volume of oil to moderate engine temps like a giant "oil heatsink" under high volume flow. under high torque and low horsepower (i.e. diesel) normal automobile oil suffers viscosity breakdown very quickly..leading to metal to metal contact... and so there are "diesel formulated" engine oils to protect harder working parts....p.s. use VW only specified oils in diesels...camshaft wear results otherwise (no moly content) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > That helps clear up something for me. I had heard that the VW diesel had a > lot of problems yet I have heard on this board that they are fine. So it > would appear that they had problems up to a certain date, fixed them and now > the newer ones are okay. Did I get that right? I put an oil cooler on the > air cooled race bike and it made a lot of difference. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "johaan2002" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] RE: oil coolers > > > > you can find a sandwiched, non thermostatically controlled oilcooler > > that sandwiched between filter and filter base on the front of any > > GTI (sport model) gas VW, the coolant hoses and necesasry piping to > > plumb in coolant through the oilcooler (oil over coolant)could also > > be removed from the GTI golf, i advise a word of caution though, > > these oilcoolers will retrofit onto any four cylinder gas engine but > > a certain many (recalled) hadporosity problems and developed oil > > leaks into the coolant, wich could be harmfull at sea. if you decide > > to run an external oil cooler you could get an autotech > > thermostatically controlled sandwich plate that goes between the > > filter and filter base. it has a small thermally active ball valve > > that lets oil through to an external oil cooler. be sure to add the > > appropriate volume of extra oil to fill whatever cooler you use. > > personally i would go with the oil over coolant oil cooler as > > opposed to the external one... i would find a good used one or a new > > one from VW (probably expensive). the less external oil lines the > > better from a reliability point of view, and from an engine point of > > view it would help the engine warm up quicker and stabilise oil > > temps more quickly wich is what it was inteded to to, another thing > > on VW diesels wich are one of my most favourite engines to work on... > > beware of used diesel motors from the 80' with dubious histories, > > the pre burner cups are knife edge thin on one side wich heat cycle, > > embritle and eventually break off causing cylinder wall scoring, > > these early diesels' pre burner cups are not interference fit and > > therefore these heads cant be machined by most shops if they warp. > > also mid 90's turbo diesels out of MK4 golfs and jettas have weak > > lower timing belt keyways, they eventually slip after about 300Kkms, > > causing valve to to piston contact and extensive damage, a good vw > > diesel mechanic can point out wich engines those are... over all > > though i wouldnt hesistate at all to take a VW diesel to sea, they > > are a bulletproof little motor... but they need extremely good fuel > > filtration as the bosch high pressure pumps are very fussy with > > water and dirt, also.. if you are going to use starting fluid (ether) > > do so only as a last ditch effort.. the compression ratios are way > > to high and you may break a ring land.... just keep good glow plugs > > in, clean fuel and regular timing belt and oil changes, and these > > engines have been know to easily hurdle 500K Kms.... > > damn, i miss my VW diesel.... > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5518|5518|2004-09-18 17:03:36|fenixrises|Swain Boats in Florida?|Hi all, I seem to remember seeing a post from two different people building BS 36's in Florida. I would like to see the boats at their owners convienence. Drop me an e-mail please. Fred fenixrises@... fenixrises@...| 5519|2910|2004-09-18 17:36:27|audeojude|Re: on the subject of sails|someone has already taken the posts and compliled them by year in text format. use that as your search base. However it would be nice to have a document that was organized. actually how about a wiki on the subject. for those that don't know what a wiki is let me give a link to one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page basically it a online document that is group authored. You create subjects and catagories in it and then anyone that wants to can put information under that topic. Other people can add to or modify that information and the wiki keeps a change log of deletions or additions so you can back them out if you need to. You can also have it moderated so that changes are approved. I have my own servers on the internet on dedicated high speed link and could host this if enough people are interested in doing it and maintaining it. It would take me a month or two to get up and running as we are in the process of changing over hardware and building new servers but that could be time used to create a list of topics and such ahead of time. scott carle aka audeojude sv comes around, goes around give a link to one --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi RT and fred, > > We had a pretty good look at this topic last year some time with the > two options being to put them side by side or fore and aft, there are > disadvantages and advantages to both but on ballance I think the Fore > and aft works better allround. > > The search mechanism is pretty rubbish on the yahoo site. I was > thinking of making up a bit of an Index to topics at some stage (next > year when my boats back together-ish) as there is a huge amount of > information just buried in this group. Any ideas as to the best > format, I was just thinking of a text document with topics indexed to > the message numbers. any thoughts or volunteers to help? > > Cheers > > Ben | 5520|4104|2004-09-18 19:05:13|fenixrises|Gerr|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I've seen excellent paint jobs on steel boats last decades. So much > for Gerr's theory. With good zincs on, I've had bare steel below the > waterline still showing grinder marks after many years . So much for > the theory of losing steel.It's sort of like warning people about > aluminium eating clams. > Brent Swain Hi all, "It's sort of like warning people about aluminium eating clams." Reminds me of the big scare back in the late 70's about polyestermites (marine organisms that eat polyester). Article in Sail, hot debate and many letters to the editor, etc. Had a lot of people in a panic. A lot of thinking about sheathing fiberglass boats in wood to protect them from the new menace. I wonder if they have evolved into ferromites? Ahhhh..... we are in trouble now! Fred ps Perhaps I should have saved this for April?| 5521|2910|2004-09-18 19:39:01|Ben Tucker|index (was on the subject of sails)|Hi Henri,Scott,and all Sounds like you have been thinking along simmiar lines to me, I would love to see where your at Henri and help out, Heres a few of my thoughts but it sounds like your already way ahead of me. the wiki Sounds like a good idea. Thinking about it last night I thought of a couple of other options. One idea similar to the wiki with a website that has everything nicely indexed on pages for rigging, folding the hull up, welding etc this would be neat and the only problems being "ownership" and updating by one person (solved by this wiki idea?) also alot more complex to build. Another more simple idea is to have the index as a text document in the files segment, together with the compressed files making a kind of downloadable book. For easy access the index could be aranged into topics like rig,hull,interior,keels,design,corrosion etc and inside each file a cronological list of the threads together with a quick descripion of the content and the individual message numbers. As more messages come in they can just be summerised and tacked onto the bottom of the aproprate file, making it easy to keep updated. Once the material is indexed like this it would be lots easier to organise it in more complex ways. If a few of us took 1000 msgs each and then we combined them all into the one document it wouldn't be to hard. Anything we do must be easy to keep updated and easily accessable. Once the basics are done it won't take as much to keep improving it. Cheers Ben| 5522|5481|2004-09-18 20:58:41|Graeme|Re: oil coolers|Oil must run at a temp high enough to boil off water that is made during combustion . one of the reasons that raw water motors fail after a short period as they never reach correct operating temp and sludge up with a mix of oil and water. Graeme -----Original Message----- From: denis buggy [mailto:buggy@...] Sent: Saturday, 18 September 2004 5:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers dear all re temp of oil in any decent engine oil is sprayed from jets in the crankcase up wards and into the skirt of the piston which is much hotter than the block or shaft . in order to keep the castiron insert in the piston stable and all other metal parts at their designed tolerances the only liquid you can use to cool the guts of an engine is oil and the oil has a narrow temp field to work properly as has the engine which runs like shit when cold and is built to "grow "as it gets warmer and behave as it should . i would weld a box to the floor of the boat and allow the floor to cool it or make a worm out of piping and weld two hydralic connections to each end for your cheap hydralic hose to screw on to . you can always take the sump off and weld a lot of fins to it and make it the oil cooler as many engine makers do . regards denis----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the engine could have a temperature which is one degree different from that of the engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions are different and use an aluminium box with water flowing thru it bolted to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Richard, > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for compatibility. > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5523|5523|2004-09-19 00:51:14|Brent Geery|Boat modeling Rhino3D tutorial|http://3drender.com/rhino/boathtml/index.htm has a tutorial on modeling a boat with Rhino3D. Have not tried it yet. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5524|5524|2004-09-19 09:52:40|audeojude|wikipedia site|Ok I have started this up. by reserving a few domain names that we could use for a main wiki site for boat construction. I got to thinking about it and I am on about a dozen boat building lists where people have been wanting something similar so I didnt do it specific to origami in the domain name. We can build a catagory in the wiki that is origami specific. This way we can talk more people into contributing from a very broad range of boat building interest groups. here are the names that were available that I thought would work. i would love some input on them. in no particular order here they are. boatcenter.info boatdesignandconstruction.com buildaboat.info buildingaboat.com buildingyourboat.com buildyourboat.info everythingboats.info homebuiltboats.com| 5525|5525|2004-09-19 09:53:55|Lee Corbridge, DVM|Re: wiki software|Hi Folks ... I use a wiki everyday. Before I installed my wiki I had directories or folders ( I'm a Mac User ) filled with thousands of text files of all my information. Since I have converted over to the wiki-way, I know where EVERYTHING is and I can retrieve it almost instantly. Simply put ... it is a HUGE time saver and organizer for any information based group or club to use and anyone can contribute to the effort. My wiki software is pmwiki and it can be found here : http://www.pmwiki.org/ Trust me ... it's the best one out there that doesn't force you to deal with the headaches of using a mySQL database and it can be installed on just about ANY system software. Just something to chew on for the discussion. On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 06:32 AM, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > Subject: index (was on the subject of sails) > > Hi Henri,Scott,and all > > Sounds like you have been thinking along simmiar lines to me, I would > love to see where your at Henri and help out, Heres a few of my > thoughts but it sounds like your already way ahead of me. > > the wiki Sounds like a good idea. Thinking about it last night I > thought of a couple of other options. > > One idea similar to the wiki with a website that has everything > nicely indexed on pages for rigging, folding the hull up, welding etc > this would be neat and the only problems being "ownership" and > updating by one person (solved by this wiki idea?) also alot more > complex to build. > > Another more simple idea is to have the index as a text document in > the files segment, together with the compressed files making a kind > of downloadable book. For easy access the index could be aranged into > topics like rig,hull,interior,keels,design,corrosion etc and inside > each file a cronological list of the threads together with a quick > descripion of the content and the individual message numbers. As more > messages come in they can just be summerised and tacked onto the > bottom of the aproprate file, making it easy to keep updated. > > Once the material is indexed like this it would be lots easier to > organise it in more complex ways. If a few of us took 1000 msgs each > and then we combined them all into the one document it wouldn't be to > hard. > > Anything we do must be easy to keep updated and easily accessable. > Once the basics are done it won't take as much to keep improving it. > > Cheers > > Ben I Hope This Helps ... Keep Looking Up Doc Lee Corbridge, DVM ~ allcritters@... http://www.allcritters.com ~ Sebring, FL Member AVMA, AAFP ~ USDA Accredited Practice Limited To Cats Of All Sizes -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Life is about creating yourself." -- George Bernard Shaw "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead| 5526|5506|2004-09-19 13:24:06|spencerj71|Re: Aluminium antifouling|Brent & All, I've had good luck with Trilux with Biolux, bad luck with No-Foul SN1 (made by E-paint), but I'm told they reformulated so maybe its better. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I just met a friend who was scraping his aluminium 40 footer for the > third time this year. He told me that Internationlal antifouling , > the only one compatible with aluminium ,is half the strength it used > to be and three times the price. He said a friend in Seattle has been > using a mixture of LPS and tetracycline for years with some success. > What are you aluminium boat guys using now? Any new ideas? > Brent | 5527|5190|2004-09-19 20:08:43|fenixrises|Re: Boat building materials|Hi all, A couple of things. When I was in Pago Pago harbor for the 92-93 hurricane season I heard about a boat that disappeared without a trace the previous season. In Dec '91 there was a major hurricane that sat stationary about 50- 75 miles SW of American Samoa for three days. Just prior to the storm's arrival there was a large(45'-50') cement boat in Tonga(about 450 miles S of Samoa). The captain wanted to return to Pago harbour before the storm hit. Pago harbour is well known to be one of the best hurricane holes in the south Pacific. He radioed friends in Pago when he departed Tonga, unfortunately he was unable to get back to Pago harbour soon enough. The boat and all aboard disappeared. In the early days of my arrival in SoCal there were many cement boats in various stages of incompleation in the area. I often wondered why the people building them didn't just build a steel boat. At that time(mid 70's) the cost savings of a ferro hull and deck compared to all steel was minimal at best and I think the labor for a ferro hull and deck was much more. As you know ferro boats have a great deal of steel work in the armature. There was a company that developed a special epoxy to be mixed with a certain type of filler to be used instead of cement. They figured that there were many steel armatures around the country that could use this material to great benefit. It was much lighter, stronger, could be faired far more easily and did not require the entire job to be done in one go. Steel reinforced epoxy... Fred wrote: > I've never heard of a ferro cement boat having structural failure in > rough weather at sea, even tho some have experienced extreme > conditions.However , they tend to be quite fragile when they > encounter a solid object. I found this out the hard way when my first > boat, a ferrocement 36 footer, blew oto a Fijian coral reef in 1975 > She broke up, as the Fijians said, like a watermelon dropped on a > sidewalk, in very moderate conditions. A steel boat would not have > even dented in the same conditions, 15 knots of wind blowing accross > 15 miles of lagoon. > If you get one cheap enough , and use it for a couple of years ,it > will owe you nothing, and you'll be money ahead even iff you abandon > her. The hulls can be extremely maintenance free. > Brent > | 5528|5255|2004-09-19 21:02:31|fenixrises|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|Hi Brent, It would be a rare place in a major metropolitan area where you would not have access to 30 amps of either 240v or 208v single phase electricity. Most houses in that area have 30 amp 240v electric drier outlets that would do just fine. A very small commercial property would have at least a 50 amp 120/240v service. Fred --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > I've been looking around for deals on welders, and need to know what > size I should be looking at, for the 26 footer. I'd like to stick > with the 120V models, as it will make finding a building location > easier for me in the middle of Los Angeles, but then I seem to be > limited to about 100-120A models. Is 100A sufficient to get the job > done, you do I have to look at the 150-200A 220V models? > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 5529|5505|2004-09-19 23:26:57|brentgeery|Re: portable welders|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I just hooked up a 100 amp dodge alternator with the two leads from > my starting battery going directly to the field, with a 65 watt > halogen bulb in the positive feed line ( To avoid overloading the > field windings)I hooked a stinger cable to the positive and did all > my welding projects this morning. It worked well and will enable me > to weld anywhere.I can regulate the amps with the rpm of my engine. > The alternator cost me $35 in an autowreckers, the same as a 35 amp > alternator. Perhaps a 150 amp job costs the same, but I'd probably > have to use a bigger bulb to give more power to the field. > It cost me less than a day's rental on a portable welder so at the > moment owes me nothing. > Brent Very cool. Using a light as a resistor- forgot about that bright idea. :) It also wouldn't be very hard to construct a PWM field controller from $10 worth of parts.| 5530|5255|2004-09-19 23:27:14|Brent Geery|Re: Welder Shopping: What size?|On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:02:24 -0000, "fenixrises" wrote: > Brent Geery wrote: > > I've been looking around for deals on welders, and need to know what > > size I should be looking at, for the 26 footer. I'd like to stick > > with the 120V models, as it will make finding a building location > > easier for me in the middle of Los Angeles, but then I seem to be > > limited to about 100-120A models. Is 100A sufficient to get the job > > done, you do I have to look at the 150-200A 220V models? > Hi Brent, > It would be a rare place in a major metropolitan area where you would > not have access to 30 amps of either 240v or 208v single phase > electricity. > Most houses in that area have 30 amp 240v electric drier outlets that > would do just fine. > A very small commercial property would have at least a 50 amp > 120/240v service. We'll see. It depends on the rent they want. Worse case, I might be stuck renting (or buying for back-taxes) an empty parcel with no electricity at all. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5531|2910|2004-09-20 02:09:00|Henri Naths|Re: index (was on the subject of sails)|Hi Ben, My info is filed in subfolders in out look express. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Tucker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 18 September, 2004 5:38 PM Subject: [origamiboats] index (was on the subject of sails) Hi Henri,Scott,and all Sounds like you have been thinking along simmiar lines to me, I would love to see where your at Henri and help out, Heres a few of my thoughts but it sounds like your already way ahead of me. the wiki Sounds like a good idea. Thinking about it last night I thought of a couple of other options. One idea similar to the wiki with a website that has everything nicely indexed on pages for rigging, folding the hull up, welding etc this would be neat and the only problems being "ownership" and updating by one person (solved by this wiki idea?) also alot more complex to build. Another more simple idea is to have the index as a text document in the files segment, together with the compressed files making a kind of downloadable book. For easy access the index could be aranged into topics like rig,hull,interior,keels,design,corrosion etc and inside each file a cronological list of the threads together with a quick descripion of the content and the individual message numbers. As more messages come in they can just be summerised and tacked onto the bottom of the aproprate file, making it easy to keep updated. Once the material is indexed like this it would be lots easier to organise it in more complex ways. If a few of us took 1000 msgs each and then we combined them all into the one document it wouldn't be to hard. Anything we do must be easy to keep updated and easily accessable. Once the basics are done it won't take as much to keep improving it. Cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5532|5532|2004-09-20 10:03:34|fenixrises|Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Hi all, Some basics. Weights: Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot range. Typical hull plating 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot Typical deck plating 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot For approximatly equal weight: In aluminum: Hull 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot Deck 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot For approximatly equal weight: In plywood: Hull 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot Deck 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" for the deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. Building to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal framing. Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull built to the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to steel as regards deformation, point impact and penetration. Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily available thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier than aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required to build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could be partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded fashion. A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would probably be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an epoxy and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood would also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial floatation. Take care, Fred| 5533|5532|2004-09-20 11:18:10|Henri Naths|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|"I suspect that the hull could be partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded fashion." Hi Fred, Do you think the plywood could be used as a mold, per say and finished in fg chopper gun style? H. ----- Original Message ----- From: fenixrises To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 20 September, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again Hi all, Some basics. Weights: Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot range. Typical hull plating 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot Typical deck plating 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot For approximatly equal weight: In aluminum: Hull 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot Deck 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot For approximatly equal weight: In plywood: Hull 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot Deck 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" for the deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. Building to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal framing. Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull built to the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to steel as regards deformation, point impact and penetration. Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily available thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier than aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required to build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could be partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded fashion. A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would probably be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an epoxy and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood would also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial floatation. Take care, Fred To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5534|5525|2004-09-20 11:49:28|audeojude|Re: wiki software|I'm looking at the tikiwiki.org wiki.. it is much more comprehensive than needed but gives the option down the road of activating many more modules down the road such as photo galleries, blogs, calanders, forum etc..... also I do like having a database backend such as mysql :). scott carle. I looked at the pmwiki and it does look attractive though. very simple to setup and use. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Corbridge, DVM" wrote: > Hi Folks ... > > I use a wiki everyday. > > Before I installed my wiki I had directories or folders ( I'm a Mac > User ) filled with thousands of text files of all my information. > Since I have converted over to the wiki-way, I know where EVERYTHING is > and I can retrieve it almost instantly. Simply put ... it is a HUGE > time saver and organizer for any information based group or club to use > and anyone can contribute to the effort. > > My wiki software is pmwiki and it can be found here : > http://www.pmwiki.org/ > > Trust me ... it's the best one out there that doesn't force you to deal > with the headaches of using a mySQL database and it can be installed on > just about ANY system software. > > Just something to chew on for the discussion. > > > On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 06:32 AM, > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Subject: index (was on the subject of sails) > > > > Hi Henri,Scott,and all > > > > Sounds like you have been thinking along simmiar lines to me, I would > > love to see where your at Henri and help out, Heres a few of my > > thoughts but it sounds like your already way ahead of me. > > > > the wiki Sounds like a good idea. Thinking about it last night I > > thought of a couple of other options. > > > > One idea similar to the wiki with a website that has everything > > nicely indexed on pages for rigging, folding the hull up, welding etc > > this would be neat and the only problems being "ownership" and > > updating by one person (solved by this wiki idea?) also alot more > > complex to build. > > > > Another more simple idea is to have the index as a text document in > > the files segment, together with the compressed files making a kind > > of downloadable book. For easy access the index could be aranged into > > topics like rig,hull,interior,keels,design,corrosion etc and inside > > each file a cronological list of the threads together with a quick > > descripion of the content and the individual message numbers. As more > > messages come in they can just be summerised and tacked onto the > > bottom of the aproprate file, making it easy to keep updated. > > > > Once the material is indexed like this it would be lots easier to > > organise it in more complex ways. If a few of us took 1000 msgs each > > and then we combined them all into the one document it wouldn't be to > > hard. > > > > Anything we do must be easy to keep updated and easily accessable. > > Once the basics are done it won't take as much to keep improving it. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > I Hope This Helps ... > Keep Looking Up > > Doc > > Lee Corbridge, DVM ~ allcritters@y... > http://www.allcritters.com ~ Sebring, FL > Member AVMA, AAFP ~ USDA Accredited > > Practice Limited To Cats Of All Sizes > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > "Life is about creating yourself." -- George Bernard Shaw > > "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > change the world; > indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead | 5535|5481|2004-09-20 12:25:32|johaan2002|Re: oil coolers|yeah this is true... thats why people that only rubn thier cars for lless than ten minutes a day end up haveing problems with seals and other things in thier cars because of corrosion, water and a few other things are products of combustion. i have only seen very few engines with piston squiters.. and they were highly stressed engines, "any decent engine" uses crankshaft splash to cool the piston skirts... the most heat taken out of the combustion chamber is removed by the exhaust valve believe it or not...not the piston wich only contacts the cylinder wall by the rings and isnt a very good transfer of heat.. anyhow... this info is available anywhere..talk to ya \ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme" wrote: > Oil must run at a temp high enough to boil off water that is made during > combustion . one of the reasons that raw water motors fail after a short > period as they never reach correct operating temp and sludge up with a > mix of oil and water. > > > Graeme > > -----Original Message----- > From: denis buggy [mailto:buggy@i...] > Sent: Saturday, 18 September 2004 5:33 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers > > dear all re temp of oil in any decent engine oil is sprayed from jets > in the crankcase up wards and into the skirt of the piston which is much > hotter than the block or shaft . in order to keep the castiron insert in > the piston stable and all other metal parts at their designed tolerances > the only liquid you can use to cool the guts of an engine is oil and > the oil has a narrow temp field to work properly as has the engine which > runs like shit when cold and is built to "grow "as it gets warmer and > behave as it should . i would weld a box to the floor of the boat and > allow the floor to cool it or make a worm out of piping and weld two > hydralic connections to each end for your cheap hydralic hose to screw > on to . you can always take the sump off and weld a lot of fins to it > and make it the oil cooler as many engine makers do . regards > denis----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:45 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers > > > I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the engine could > have a temperature which is one degree different from that of the > engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions are > different and use an aluminium box with water flowing thru it bolted > to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Richard, > > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to > Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He > told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a > G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the > oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for > compatibility. > > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > > Henri > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > ------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 5536|5532|2004-09-20 12:40:52|ben_azo|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Hi Fred , just have a look at : http://www.reducostall.com/ see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) give me some feedback Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > > Some basics. > > Weights: > Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot > Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot > Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot > > As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot range. > Typical hull plating > 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot > Typical deck plating > 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot > > For approximatly equal weight: > In aluminum: > Hull > 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot > Deck > 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot > > For approximatly equal weight: > In plywood: > Hull > 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot > Deck > 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot > > In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone > would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" for the > deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly > lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. Building > to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal framing. > Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a > concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull built to > the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to steel as > regards deformation, point impact and penetration. > > Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily available > thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier than > aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required to > build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could be > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded fashion. > A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would probably > be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an epoxy > and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood would > also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial floatation. > > Take care, > Fred | 5537|5532|2004-09-20 13:18:31|fenixrises|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Hi Henri, I would not recommend this approach. Chopper gun layups are notorious for low glass to resin ratios. Standard polyester resin does not have the adhesive or strength qualities of epoxy. Hand layups with vinylester resin and bi or tri axial glass with an interlaminate of light weight mat matrix might be a possibility. However once again this would be much more labor intesive than metal origami. Take care, Fred "Henri Naths" wrote: > "I suspect that the hull could be > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded fashion." > > > Hi Fred, > Do you think the plywood could be used as a mold, per say and finished in fg chopper gun style? > H. > | 5538|5532|2004-09-20 13:23:42|fenixrises|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Hi Ben, I have looked at that site b4. Very thick skins in aluminum. Strong, yes. Expensive, yes. Good for a first time amature builder, ??? Take care, Fred "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi Fred , just have a look at : > http://www.reducostall.com/ > see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW > I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size > thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) > give me some feedback > Ben > | 5539|5539|2004-09-20 13:40:18|fenixrises|Another small origami boat|Hi all, Here's a link to an interesting small origami boat. According to the designer it can be built from 10' to 40' by altering the scale of the drawings. http://www.common-sense-boats.com/flyaway.htm Take care, Fred| 5540|5532|2004-09-20 13:55:49|spencerj71|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Ben, Very interesting. At a yard I worked at we built a 55' pilot boat with 1/2" bottom plate and 3/8" topsides. The only internal sturture was deep transverse frames every 4' and longl floors (engine girders) in the bottom. One of the boats hit a rock at 25 knots and survived. There were some punctures, but not bad enough to sink the boat. The amount of labor in the hull was much less than thinner, "traditionally" framed boats, at least a third less for the weight. Not the way to go if you want speed, but if you want a strong boat that goes together quickly it was great. Do these boats really have no framing? There must be something for engine beds, keel structure, skeg structure, mast step, etc. I'd be interested in any details. Also, does Meta liscense there designs, or is it strictly build? - Spencer - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi Fred , just have a look at : > http://www.reducostall.com/ > see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW > I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size > thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) > give me some feedback > Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Some basics. > > > > Weights: > > Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot > > Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot > > Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot > > > > As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot > range. > > Typical hull plating > > 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot > > Typical deck plating > > 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > In aluminum: > > Hull > > 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot > > Deck > > 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > In plywood: > > Hull > > 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot > > Deck > > 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot > > > > In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone > > would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" > for the > > deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly > > lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. > Building > > to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal > framing. > > Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a > > concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull > built to > > the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to > steel as > > regards deformation, point impact and penetration. > > > > Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily > available > > thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier > than > > aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required > to > > build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could > be > > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded > fashion. > > A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would > probably > > be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an > epoxy > > and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood > would > > also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial floatation. > > > > Take care, > > Fred | 5541|5532|2004-09-20 14:13:13|John Jones|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Just take a look in the "photo's & files" to the left on this screen to see the extent of structural framing. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Ben, > > Very interesting. At a yard I worked at we built a 55' pilot boat > with 1/2" bottom plate and 3/8" topsides. The only internal sturture > was deep transverse frames every 4' and longl floors (engine girders) > in the bottom. One of the boats hit a rock at 25 knots and > survived. There were some punctures, but not bad enough to sink the > boat. The amount of labor in the hull was much less than > thinner, "traditionally" framed boats, at least a third less for the > weight. Not the way to go if you want speed, but if you want a > strong boat that goes together quickly it was great. > > Do these boats really have no framing? There must be something for > engine beds, keel structure, skeg structure, mast step, etc. I'd be > interested in any details. Also, does Meta liscense there designs, > or is it strictly build? > > - Spencer > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Hi Fred , just have a look at : > > http://www.reducostall.com/ > > see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW > > I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size > > thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) > > give me some feedback > > Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Some basics. > > > > > > Weights: > > > Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot > > > Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot > > > Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot > > > > > > As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot > > range. > > > Typical hull plating > > > 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot > > > Typical deck plating > > > 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > In aluminum: > > > Hull > > > 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot > > > Deck > > > 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > In plywood: > > > Hull > > > 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot > > > Deck > > > 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot > > > > > > In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone > > > would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" > > for the > > > deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly > > > lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. > > Building > > > to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal > > framing. > > > Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a > > > concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull > > built to > > > the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to > > steel as > > > regards deformation, point impact and penetration. > > > > > > Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily > > available > > > thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier > > than > > > aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required > > to > > > build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could > > be > > > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded > > fashion. > > > A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would > > probably > > > be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an > > epoxy > > > and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood > > would > > > also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial > floatation. > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred | 5542|5532|2004-09-20 14:44:41|spencerj71|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|John, You mean within this group? Which of these pictures are of Meta/Strongall boats? - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Just take a look in the "photo's & files" to the left on this screen to see the > extent of structural framing. > John > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > Ben, > > > > Very interesting. At a yard I worked at we built a 55' pilot boat > > with 1/2" bottom plate and 3/8" topsides. The only internal sturture > > was deep transverse frames every 4' and longl floors (engine girders) > > in the bottom. One of the boats hit a rock at 25 knots and > > survived. There were some punctures, but not bad enough to sink the > > boat. The amount of labor in the hull was much less than > > thinner, "traditionally" framed boats, at least a third less for the > > weight. Not the way to go if you want speed, but if you want a > > strong boat that goes together quickly it was great. > > > > Do these boats really have no framing? There must be something for > > engine beds, keel structure, skeg structure, mast step, etc. I'd be > > interested in any details. Also, does Meta liscense there designs, > > or is it strictly build? > > > > - Spencer > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > > Hi Fred , just have a look at : > > > http://www.reducostall.com/ > > > see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW > > > I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size > > > thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) > > > give me some feedback > > > Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Some basics. > > > > > > > > Weights: > > > > Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot > > > > Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot > > > > Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot > > > > > > > > As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot > > > range. > > > > Typical hull plating > > > > 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot > > > > Typical deck plating > > > > 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot > > > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > > In aluminum: > > > > Hull > > > > 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot > > > > Deck > > > > 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot > > > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > > In plywood: > > > > Hull > > > > 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot > > > > Deck > > > > 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot > > > > > > > > In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone > > > > would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" > > > for the > > > > deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly > > > > lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. > > > Building > > > > to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal > > > framing. > > > > Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a > > > > concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull > > > built to > > > > the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to > > > steel as > > > > regards deformation, point impact and penetration. > > > > > > > > Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily > > > available > > > > thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier > > > than > > > > aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required > > > to > > > > build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could > > > be > > > > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded > > > fashion. > > > > A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would > > > probably > > > > be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an > > > epoxy > > > > and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood > > > would > > > > also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial > > floatation. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > Fred | 5543|5532|2004-09-20 17:32:35|ben_azo|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|Most Designers give in there website what plans they offer for sale and at what price , all depends if a design as been made exclusively and sold to a yard or not , you just have to visit their site and ask a quotation ; most boats you see there are designed superior to CEE regulations or to ABS scantlings so they will easely will do for any US regulations . The designs always belong to the author and are just used by a yard ( same in the US ) depending on the designcontract. Meta is not the only yard producing in thick aluminum if you have something in mind the prices at COQALU sure look good coqalu@... is their e-mail adress . I think a Brent Swain boat could be build that way , certainly if you by a precut kit by a pro with some bending machines ; in Holland many companies are competing in that field. What size of boat are you interested in? Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Ben, > > Very interesting. At a yard I worked at we built a 55' pilot boat > with 1/2" bottom plate and 3/8" topsides. The only internal sturture > was deep transverse frames every 4' and longl floors (engine girders) > in the bottom. One of the boats hit a rock at 25 knots and > survived. There were some punctures, but not bad enough to sink the > boat. The amount of labor in the hull was much less than > thinner, "traditionally" framed boats, at least a third less for the > weight. Not the way to go if you want speed, but if you want a > strong boat that goes together quickly it was great. > > Do these boats really have no framing? There must be something for > engine beds, keel structure, skeg structure, mast step, etc. I'd be > interested in any details. Also, does Meta liscense there designs, > or is it strictly build? > > - Spencer > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Hi Fred , just have a look at : > > http://www.reducostall.com/ > > see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW > > I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size > > thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) > > give me some feedback > > Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Some basics. > > > > > > Weights: > > > Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot > > > Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot > > > Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot > > > > > > As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot > > range. > > > Typical hull plating > > > 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot > > > Typical deck plating > > > 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > In aluminum: > > > Hull > > > 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot > > > Deck > > > 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > In plywood: > > > Hull > > > 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot > > > Deck > > > 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot > > > > > > In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that anyone > > > would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" > > for the > > > deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be slightly > > > lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. > > Building > > > to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal > > framing. > > > Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less of a > > > concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull > > built to > > > the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to > > steel as > > > regards deformation, point impact and penetration. > > > > > > Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily > > available > > > thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly heavier > > than > > > aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor required > > to > > > build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull could > > be > > > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded > > fashion. > > > A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would > > probably > > > be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an > > epoxy > > > and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood > > would > > > also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial > floatation. > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred | 5544|5532|2004-09-20 17:42:07|ben_azo|Re: Ply vs. Aluminum vs. Steel....again|The Meta boats are frameless , you find some pics of Meta boats in Origamitrawleryachts folder in Files , the pic of the full deck house version jpeg are also from a Meta boat that hullform is the same as from the beached boat and a lot different form the posted origamidesign Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > John, > > You mean within this group? Which of these pictures are of > Meta/Strongall boats? > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > wrote: > > Just take a look in the "photo's & files" to the left on this > screen to see the > > extent of structural framing. > > John > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > > > > Very interesting. At a yard I worked at we built a 55' pilot > boat > > > with 1/2" bottom plate and 3/8" topsides. The only internal > sturture > > > was deep transverse frames every 4' and longl floors (engine > girders) > > > in the bottom. One of the boats hit a rock at 25 knots and > > > survived. There were some punctures, but not bad enough to sink > the > > > boat. The amount of labor in the hull was much less than > > > thinner, "traditionally" framed boats, at least a third less for > the > > > weight. Not the way to go if you want speed, but if you want a > > > strong boat that goes together quickly it was great. > > > > > > Do these boats really have no framing? There must be something > for > > > engine beds, keel structure, skeg structure, mast step, etc. I'd > be > > > interested in any details. Also, does Meta liscense there > designs, > > > or is it strictly build? > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > wrote: > > > > Hi Fred , just have a look at : > > > > http://www.reducostall.com/ > > > > see the productions : no frames at all , real frameless WOW > > > > I could make a pic of the weld near my thumb , same size > > > > thick aluminum sure is easy to weld and sure stronge :-) > > > > give me some feedback > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > Some basics. > > > > > > > > > > Weights: > > > > > Douglas fir plywood = 36 lbs per cubic foot > > > > > Aluminum = 170 lbs per cubic foot > > > > > Steel = 490 lbs per cubic foot > > > > > > > > > > As an example for origami construction in the 30 to 40 foot > > > > range. > > > > > Typical hull plating > > > > > 3/16 Steel plate = 7.65 lbs per square foot > > > > > Typical deck plating > > > > > 1/8 Steel plate = 5.1 lbs per square foot > > > > > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > > > In aluminum: > > > > > Hull > > > > > 1/2" plate = 7.1 lbs per square foot > > > > > Deck > > > > > 5/16" plate = 4.53 lbs per square foot > > > > > > > > > > For approximatly equal weight: > > > > > In plywood: > > > > > Hull > > > > > 2&1/2" ply = 7.5 lbs per square foot > > > > > Deck > > > > > 1&1/4" ply = 4.5 lbs per square foot > > > > > > > > > > In the size range 30 to 40 feet it is highly unlikely that > anyone > > > > > would build a boat using 1/2" aluminum for the hull and 5/16" > > > > for the > > > > > deck. Yet if cost were not a consideration this would be > slightly > > > > > lighter than the same boat in steel and monsterously strong. > > > > Building > > > > > to theses thicknesses would require almost no longitudinal > > > > framing. > > > > > Electrolysis to the point of penetration might also be less > of a > > > > > concern. I think that most would see that an aluminum hull > > > > built to > > > > > the above scantlings would sacrifice nothing in strength to > > > > steel as > > > > > regards deformation, point impact and penetration. > > > > > > > > > > Using plywood to the same general total weight in readily > > > > available > > > > > thicknesses(1/2" & 1/4") would result in a boat slightly > heavier > > > > than > > > > > aluminum and still less than steel. However the labor > required > > > > to > > > > > build in ply would be much greater. I suspect that the hull > could > > > > be > > > > > partially built origami and then finished in the cold molded > > > > fashion. > > > > > A ply hull 2&1/2" thick would also be very tough. It would > > > > probably > > > > > be best if the thickness were reduced by 1/2" to allow for an > > > > epoxy > > > > > and s-glass overlay and keep the weigth equal. Using plywood > > > > would > > > > > also add the benefits of built in insulation and partial > > > floatation. > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > Fred | 5545|22|2004-09-20 18:17:19|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /JPBrouns designed Meta/framelessint.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : where are the frames ???? You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/JPBrouns%20designed%20Meta/framelessint.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 5546|5546|2004-09-20 18:23:16|ben_azo|For Spencer|I just posted 3 pics in the Folder : JPBrouns designed Meta in Files no frames , just have a look and tell me what you think Ben| 5547|5481|2004-09-20 19:10:16|richytill|Re: oil coolers|A special thank you to all the folks who are giving feed back on oil cooling issues. If I were to build again I would build an oil cooler into the hull for the engine as I did for the transmission. The one for the transmission works fine. The VW engine is probably not the very best choice for a marine engine but you can pick them up for $500--1500 at the auto-wreckers and factory rebuilds are quite affordable. Further, parts are readily available almost any auto store anywhere. A friend just paid $850+ for a Yanmar wet manifold system: I could replace my whole motor for that amount and potentialy get several years of use out of it. This is an experiment. I am willing to take the risk of failure for the sake of learning. When the results are gathered from real life testing I will share with the group the advantages and disadvantages of powering with a VW diesel. Test so far indicate the need for a good oil cooler and a reduction ratio of at least 2:1. Thanks, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "johaan2002" wrote: > yeah this is true... thats why people that only rubn thier cars for > lless than ten minutes a day end up haveing problems with seals and > other things in thier cars because of corrosion, water and a few > other things are products of combustion. i have only seen very few > engines with piston squiters.. and they were highly stressed > engines, "any decent engine" uses crankshaft splash to cool the > piston skirts... the most heat taken out of the combustion chamber > is removed by the exhaust valve believe it or not...not the piston > wich only contacts the cylinder wall by the rings and isnt a very > good transfer of heat.. anyhow... this info is available > anywhere..talk to ya > \ > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme" wrote: > > Oil must run at a temp high enough to boil off water that is made > during > > combustion . one of the reasons that raw water motors fail after a > short > > period as they never reach correct operating temp and sludge up > with a > > mix of oil and water. > > > > > > Graeme > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: denis buggy [mailto:buggy@i...] > > Sent: Saturday, 18 September 2004 5:33 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers > > > > dear all re temp of oil in any decent engine oil is sprayed from > jets > > in the crankcase up wards and into the skirt of the piston which > is much > > hotter than the block or shaft . in order to keep the castiron > insert in > > the piston stable and all other metal parts at their designed > tolerances > > the only liquid you can use to cool the guts of an engine is oil > and > > the oil has a narrow temp field to work properly as has the engine > which > > runs like shit when cold and is built to "grow "as it gets warmer > and > > behave as it should . i would weld a box to the floor of the boat > and > > allow the floor to cool it or make a worm out of piping and weld > two > > hydralic connections to each end for your cheap hydralic hose to > screw > > on to . you can always take the sump off and weld a lot of fins to > it > > and make it the oil cooler as many engine makers do . regards > > denis----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:45 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers > > > > > > I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the engine > could > > have a temperature which is one degree different from that of > the > > engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions are > > different and use an aluminium box with water flowing thru it > bolted > > to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > > wrote: > > > Richard, > > > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to > > Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. > He > > told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same > as a > > G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and > the > > oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for > > compatibility. > > > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > > > Henri > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > ----- > > ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links | 5548|5548|2004-09-20 19:14:01|daddy48185|17 to 20 ft v hall|Can anyone guide me to a source of plans for either a 17 ft canoe and/or 17 to 20 ft row boat?| 5549|5481|2004-09-20 19:29:14|fenixrises|Re: oil coolers|Hi all, Generally speaking for a displacment hull the prop shaft should not exceed 1,000 revolutions per minute. Transmission reduction ratio should take that into account. Many diesels like the VW and the numerous light weight higher speed engines would be better with a 3 to 1 reduction. Most are not supplied that way. It is often a no extra cost option when purchasing a new engine. When I built my last boat I had a small Yanmar 2 cyl 16hp with an available 3.25 to 1 reduction ratio. The company that I bought the engine from did not import them this way. But they had the parts in stock to convert the standard 2 to 1. Since it was a standard ratio offered by Yannmar the conversion was done at no charge to me. I think that most production builders use the 2 to 1 because of cost. A bigger reduction requires and can beneficially use, a larger (read more expensive) prop. Of course if in an appeture the larger prop will not fit. A one inch increase in prop diameter gains more thrust than about 5 inches of pitch increase. Take care, Fred "richytill" wrote: Test so far indicate the need for a > good oil cooler and a reduction ratio of at least 2:1. Thanks, rt > | 5550|5550|2004-09-20 21:33:55|blueiceicle|spray insulation......|Hey all, Just wondering if anyone has had a recent price quote on having a boat sray insulated price per sq/ft? Alex maybe? have u gotten this far? Thanks everyone, Jesse| 5551|5550|2004-09-21 08:13:06|Ben Tucker|Re: spray insulation......|Hi All Has anyone sprayed insulation into an already fitted out boat? how much mess does it make? All my lining is out at the moment so it would be great to get it done properly but the bulkheads and stuff are nicely painted and vanished so they would need good protection. cheers Ben Ps how did the experiments go with painting the stuff onto polystyrene and using it as a kind of expanding glue go?| 5552|5550|2004-09-21 11:56:59|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: spray insulation......|> > Ps how did the experiments go with painting the stuff onto > polystyrene and using it as a kind of expanding glue go? I experimented with a two part foam. After mixing I applied as thin a coat as possible to chunks of Styrofoam and slapped them on a piece of sheet metal. After about two month of sun and rain the chunks are still holding firm. I removed some of the foam to check how well it was secured. The two part foam gave me 100% coverage. I think it is a good option for applying insulation. However, in this country, I have still not found fire resistant foam, sold in sheets, and will not even consider applying Styrofoam Gerald.| 5553|5546|2004-09-21 12:12:40|spencerj71|Re: For Spencer|Ben, Thanks! There really are no frames! The aluminum work looks great. I'm looking to build a coastal cruiser for my wife and future family. I was think of something around 32'. It seems that the benefits of this building method are greater for mid-size hulls (36'- 60'). Maybe I'll go up to 36'. I found a company on the web that claims to be the liscensed builder of Strongall in the U.S. Here's their website: http://www.fairmetalboats.com Do you know anything about them? It looks like they've built an aluminum tug using the method. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > I just posted 3 pics in the Folder : > JPBrouns designed Meta in Files > no frames , just have a look and tell me what you think > Ben | 5554|5481|2004-09-21 12:14:09|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: oil coolers|VW Marine currently manufactures a marine version, ready as a bolt in version. Before I would take it upon myself to install a 3.5-1 gearbox, I believe I would check to see what their engineers have come up with. I used a 2.1-1 box with my 1.9 VW and would use the same box again if installing in another boat. VW rates the motor at a given horsepower at a ridiculous RPM. Who in their right mind would run that engine, for a long period of time, at 4000 RPM where it produces maximum horsepower? My motor sounded about right when I ran it at around 2000 RPM. An easy way to check what VW had in mind for the engine is to drive one of their cars at the speed limit. A quick look at the tachometer should indicate where they designed the engine to run. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > > Generally speaking for a displacment hull the prop shaft should not > exceed 1,000 revolutions per minute. > Transmission reduction ratio should take that into account. > Many diesels like the VW and the numerous light weight higher speed > engines would be better with a 3 to 1 reduction. Most are not > supplied that way. It is often a no extra cost option when purchasing > a new engine. When I built my last boat I had a small Yanmar 2 cyl > 16hp with an available 3.25 to 1 reduction ratio. The company that | 5555|5550|2004-09-21 12:14:33|Michael Casling|Re: spray insulation......|I recall that someone said paint works as a good fire barrier. The spray on foam has turned yellow in our stock trailer so I intend to paint it some time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: spray insulation...... > > Ps how did the experiments go with painting the stuff onto > polystyrene and using it as a kind of expanding glue go? I experimented with a two part foam. After mixing I applied as thin a coat as possible to chunks of Styrofoam and slapped them on a piece of sheet metal. After about two month of sun and rain the chunks are still holding firm. I removed some of the foam to check how well it was secured. The two part foam gave me 100% coverage. I think it is a good option for applying insulation. However, in this country, I have still not found fire resistant foam, sold in sheets, and will not even consider applying Styrofoam Gerald. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5556|5481|2004-09-21 12:56:38|fenixrises|Re: oil coolers|"Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > VW Marine currently manufactures a marine version, ready as a bolt in > version. Before I would take it upon myself to install a 3.5-1 > gearbox, I believe I would check to see what their engineers have > come up with. I used a 2.1-1 box with my 1.9 VW and would use the > same box again if installing in another boat. My motor sounded about right when I ran it at around 2000 RPM. I wrote: Generally speaking for a displacment hull the prop shaft should not exceed 1,000 revolutions per minute. You run at 2000 rpm / 2.1 to 1 = 952 shaft rpm However should you ever desire to use another 1000 rpm from time to time that means 3000 / 2.1 to 1 = 1428 shaft rpm. This means that very likely your prop will be cavitating and not developing the amount of thrust that the engine is capable of delivering by turning a larger diameter prop at less rpm. Take care, Fred| 5557|5557|2004-09-21 13:09:20|knutfg|Foam and fire protection|Normal styrofoam is probably a no-go in a boat, even if using the 2- part PU-foam as a glue to fix the sheets properly and without voids and pockets. The technique might still be possible with other types of insulation foam sheets, provided a self-extinguishing type can be found. All polymeric foam types will burn and decompose in a fire where other materials are burning, but the self-extinguishing types will stop burning if they are left to burn on their own. In any case, (using sprayed self-exting. PU-foam or any type of self- exting. foam sheets) it may be a good idea to use a fire protecting industrial paint as a final coat. There are many such products in the market, that will expand by foaming if exposed to a certain minimum temperature and the created foam is an excellent heat protection between the substrate and the fire. The consequences of a local fire could be substantially reduced and the risk of an all-out fire destroying the boat would also be much less. Knut| 5558|5546|2004-09-21 18:26:43|ben_azo|Re: For Spencer|Hi Spencer,I could not resist posting some more pics in that folder in Files : especialy the pic where I point at two 12mm aluminum pieces joint by a 16mm weld :-) STRONG the pic of the 26' round the world cruiser show thick aluminum can be used for small boats , you find more pics and specs in the Rando-Orca files in the repository : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ I went over the http://www.fairmetalboats.com website and found some fine Tanton designs . I dont know them but they must have a licence to use the Strongall brand. I would love to hear more about your new boatproject, personaly I think 33ft is an excellent size except if you plan 5 kids :-) I sure hope you plan an origami design , give us some details. Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Ben, > > Thanks! There really are no frames! The aluminum work looks great. > > I'm looking to build a coastal cruiser for my wife and future > family. I was think of something around 32'. It seems that the > benefits of this building method are greater for mid-size hulls (36'- > 60'). Maybe I'll go up to 36'. > > I found a company on the web that claims to be the liscensed builder > of Strongall in the U.S. Here's their website: > > http://www.fairmetalboats.com > > Do you know anything about them? It looks like they've built an > aluminum tug using the method. > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > I just posted 3 pics in the Folder : > > JPBrouns designed Meta in Files > > no frames , just have a look and tell me what you think > > Ben | 5559|5481|2004-09-21 19:30:13|gschnell|Re: oil coolers|An VW in-line I have seen has an oil cooler mounted between the oil filter and the block mount. The turbo engines use a larger cooler and send that freshly cooled oil to the turbo. Gord Henri Naths wrote: > Richard, > I was just on the phone , Darsh Imports, Edmonton, speaking to > Richard, (owner) at 780-477-5000 about aftermarket oil coolers. He > told me that the mounting plate for the oil filter is the same as a > G.M. You could put an oil cooler adapter between that plate and the > oil filter. I would double check your vw rabbit engine year for > compatibility. > Fact is, he said you could put a GM oil filter on a VW. > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5560|5471|2004-09-21 19:36:29|gschnell|Re: Best way to put in ballast|If you choose to melt your ballast into the keel(s), it will shrink as it cools. When it is cool, just mix some old/cheap epoxy and pour it over and arround the lead. That will isolate it from the steel keel(s). Then, as Brent says, weld a plate over it to seal the keel(s). Gord brentswain38 wrote: > Epoxy would simply burn out. As long as you weld an airtight steel > cap on your ballast after it's in ,there will be no corrosion as > there will not be enough oxygen to cause it. > If you don't trust your welds, a bit of diesel poured on top of > your ballast before sealing it of will stop any oxygen reaching it. > That is how they sealed the oxygen out of the swamps to stop the > mosquitoes while they built the Panama Canal. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > wrote: > > Lead is a less nobel metal than steel so don't worry about rust TOO > MUCH! > > Butt go for the epoxie anyways and hope enough stays there to make > a > > difference. Golly, why not add the ballast & then heat it just > like you would > > for stress relief and then it's there. Bunker - c first, > is a good start . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > Well I've finally got together enough lead to ballast my boat. > > > (approx. 4500 lbs) Most of it is in clean chunks, (50-80 lbs)and > 6, > > > 5 gallons buckets full of shavings. About 1200 lbs. is in the > form > > > of tire weights, roof flashings, pipes and misc. scrap. > This "scrap" > > > is fairly clean. > > > > > > My question is what is the best way to put this into my > twinkeeler? > > > Place the chunks/ingots into the keels and then melt the scrap > and > > > shavings around it? Melt everything in a cauldron and pour it in? > Do > > > you need to prepare the steel before putting in the lead ie. > paint > > > it with expoxy? > > > > > > what have the rest of you done to ballast your boats? > > > Thanks, Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5561|5168|2004-09-21 20:00:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Brent, what happened to cause you to add the transverse framing to the skegs and bilge keels? You mentioned you increased the skeg width after Mungo, but not that you added transverse framing. Why did you add them to the skeg? Similar with the bilge keels. I believe you said Jack didn't have framing on his bilge keels. Why did you add the frames? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > Transverse stiffening does have it's place, to stiffen keels and > skegs, not randomly spaced throughout the boat in the wooden boat > tradition, where they serve no usefull structural purpose whatever. > They were invented to deal with the fact that wood has strength in > one direction only and is not a homogenous material. When steel > arrived on the scene as a boatbuilding material they simply colied > what they knew , wooden boatbuilding, without questioning the need > for all those bits and pieces .Putting them back in represents a > giant step backwards. > The story about buses in Spain is an example of how much > improvement we can make in working with metal if we think outside the > box and not get bogged down in jusifying the mistakes of the past.The > huge potential of metal as a material for building anything has > barely been tapped. > Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to put to gether a 40 ft shell, a job > I can do in less than 100 hours. If I had your "lets cling to the > past" attitude, we would all still be setting up frames and doing > huge amounts of unneccesary work to produce an inferior product. > In this ,as in any other business, there is never any shortage of > parasites who would benefit from the progress someone else has made, > while remaining critical of the one who taught him. One guy named > Gunter Richtler, who I taught to build origami boats ,later claimed > to have invented the proccess himself. I put you in the same category. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Hi Brent, as always I get a chuckle reading your email. As with > strength >> versus stiffness, your comments about navigation apply more to > yourself. We >> routinely sail in areas or coral, many of which appear > as "unsurveyed", or >> "last surveyed 18xx" on the charts, often in areas of very poor > visibility. >> Haven't yet lost a boat, touch wood. >> >> My understanding of the rules is that plastic thru-hulls are > permitted, not >> required - and only if they have a specific strength. Monel is not > subject >> to crevice corrosion underwater as with 300 series stainless, and > doesn't >> rot the wood the way rust does, but aren't we off topic talking > about wooden >> boats? >> >> Why, given your opposition to transverse framing in boats, did you > add >> framing to the skeg and bilge keels? (and to the keel if you > consider the >> transverse tank members). I was told it was because there had been > problems >> with the appendages moving around. Not that the metal broke, > rather flexed >> enough to cause problems. If frames are not required, then why add > them? >> It doesn't make sense given that you have said they are not > required. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:22 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> > The need to carry the load on keels from the two strong points , > the >> > chine and centrline or tanktop and to spread out the load of the > skeg >> > was self evident and not the result of failures. >> > Jack's engine mouints and Mungo's keels are all the structural >> > failures that I'm aware of . >> > Gary Curtis was using plastic thru hulls and valves in steel >> > boats ,in order to comply with ABS rules. So much for their >> > credibility. >> > LLoyds requires stainless keelbolts on wooden boats now, even tho >> > that leads to rapid crevice corrosion in the bolts. So much for > their >> > credibility. >> > Given all the reefs you have bashed , I hope yopur judgement in >> > design matters exceeds your navigation skills.I'm beginning to > have >> > my doubts. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The > ability >> > to >> >> survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The >> > Bones has >> >> wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have >> > long lost >> >> count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double >> > spreader, keel >> >> stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that >> > pleasure. >> >> However, as has been said many times by others, stories of > success >> > prove >> >> nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. >> >> >> >> Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were >> > required in any >> >> metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number >> >> of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami >> > boats were >> >> originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting > the >> > bilge >> >> keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is >> > consistent >> >> with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and >> > found it >> >> necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list > for >> > the group >> >> all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in >> > origami boats. >> >> As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of >> > avoiding them. >> >> >> >> I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand >> > the >> >> geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of >> >> understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the > method." >> > As I >> >> recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an >> > attachment makes >> >> it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point > out >> > where the >> >> lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and >> > strength. >> >> Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a > result >> > of its >> >> moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its >> > geometry. >> >> >> >> Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making > the >> >> attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it > stronger, >> > which >> >> can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the >> > forces. For >> >> this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 >> > times >> >> stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail >> > sooner than >> >> expected. >> >> >> >> Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, >> > not the >> >> boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As > a >> > result, >> >> the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed >> > construction, to >> >> select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for > origami, >> > without >> >> relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly >> > adapted to >> >> origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how >> > their >> >> strength compares with other metal boats. >> >> >> >> ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction >> > result in >> >> much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done > on >> > purpose, >> >> because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much >> > stronger >> >> than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a >> > grounding >> >> and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as > strong >> > as other >> >> metal boats. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on >> > our web >> >> site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot > compare >> > one >> >> drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on > each >> > drawing. >> >> From this you will see that the first example has a maximum > stress >> > of 10,500 >> >> PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - > an 8 >> > fold >> >> reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last > example >> >> (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first >> > example >> >> (frameless) before failure. >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional >> >> > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after > costruction, >> >> > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and > non >> > that >> >> > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack > of >> >> > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for >> > many >> >> > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of >> > using >> >> > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the >> > individual, >> >> > not a shortcomming in the method. >> >> > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand >> >> > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to > metal >> >> > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the >> > centreline as >> >> > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times >> > more >> >> > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing > it >> > as >> >> > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue > worries, >> > but >> >> > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. >> >> > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all >> >> > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the > hull, >> >> > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely > soly on >> >> > rubber to hold the engine in place. >> >> > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been >> > thru >> >> > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their >> > scantlings. >> >> > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your > designs >> >> > been thru? >> >> > Brent >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both >> >> > mounts would >> >> >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. > In a >> >> > seaway, if >> >> >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing > like a >> >> > 500 lb >> >> >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. >> >> >> >> >> >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that > has >> >> > been >> >> >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are > attachments, >> >> > similar to >> >> >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal >> >> > mounted at >> >> >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, > like >> >> > the other >> >> >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are >> > subject >> >> > to >> >> >> fatigue and failure without warning. >> >> >> >> >> >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than > is >> >> > standard is >> >> >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and >> > when >> >> > the >> >> >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined > afterwards, >> >> > they >> >> >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the > scantlings >> >> > for ABS and >> >> >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. >> >> >> >> >> >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for >> >> > fatigue? Has >> >> >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be >> >> > considered >> >> >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine > mount. >> >> > This >> >> >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see >> > any >> >> > reason to >> >> >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of > proven >> >> > scantlings >> >> >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser >> >> > scantlings than is >> >> >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little > extra to >> >> > make them >> >> >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I > noticed >> >> > that >> >> >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten >> > inches >> >> >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members >> >> > involved. I >> >> >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal >> >> > fatigue >> >> >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year >> >> >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke > shortly >> >> >> > after . >> >> >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed >> > small >> >> >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and >> >> > always >> >> >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in > many >> >> > cases >> >> >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been >> > repeating >> >> >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more > than >> >> >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. >> >> >> > Brent Swain >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I > remember >> >> > your >> >> >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had > dinner >> >> > with >> >> >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and >> > remember >> >> > well >> >> >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. >> > They >> >> > were >> >> >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know > was >> >> > that >> >> >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the >> > time. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is > one >> > of >> >> >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny > them, >> >> > then >> >> >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some >> > time >> >> > ago >> >> >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat > required >> >> >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of > success, >> >> > but no >> >> >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, >> > which >> >> > are >> >> >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures >> > such >> >> >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", > our >> >> > view >> >> >> > of origami is biased. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also > think >> >> > that >> >> >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal >> > boat >> >> >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a > dangerous >> > idea >> >> >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing > inherently >> >> >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is >> > not >> >> >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that >> > say >> >> >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and >> > strong. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. > The >> >> >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the > skeg >> >> > lead to >> >> >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry > it >> >> > looks >> >> >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get >> > about >> >> >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water >> > pressure on >> >> >> > the skeg and rudder. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around >> > from >> >> >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of >> >> >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure > of >> > the >> >> >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is >> > part of >> >> >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the >> > skeg, >> >> > and >> >> >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you > could >> >> > well >> >> >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far > enough. >> >> > Thus >> >> >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse >> > framing, >> >> >> > with a girder system between. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in >> > skegs. >> >> >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to > lie a >> >> > small >> >> >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with > the >> >> >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> From: silascrosby >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM >> >> >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the > whole >> >> >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The >> >> >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to >> > avoid >> >> >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- >> > hash >> >> >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have >> > heard >> >> > of >> >> >> > is >> >> >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was > hardly a >> >> >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to > subsequent >> >> >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in > the >> >> >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test > on a >> >> >> > number >> >> >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are > only >> >> >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively >> >> > unscathed. >> >> >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 > in >> >> >> > Suva,Fiji >> >> >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 >> > month >> >> >> > old >> >> >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way >> > home >> >> > to >> >> >> > BC. >> >> >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal >> > boats. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' > a >> > 40' >> >> >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere >> >> > between >> >> >> > NZ >> >> >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. >> >> > Ship,container >> >> >> > or >> >> >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. >> >> >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the > same >> >> >> > harbour >> >> >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet >> > them.Their 'Island >> >> >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of > the >> >> >> > engine >> >> >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse > welded >> >> >> > flange. >> >> >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an >> > hour >> >> > or >> >> >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. >> >> >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the > rocky >> >> >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was >> >> >> > motoring >> >> >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack > and >> >> >> > Monica). >> >> >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow > cahannel >> > and >> >> >> > hit >> >> >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - >> >> > missed >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. >> > Dented.OK. >> >> >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver >> > Island- >> >> >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we > can >> >> > tell >> >> >> > it >> >> >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit > anything >> >> >> > except >> >> >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this > trip! >> >> >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 > knots >> > we >> >> > hit >> >> >> > a >> >> >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the > large - >> > scale >> >> >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the >> > starboard >> >> >> > keel >> >> >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but >> > lunch >> >> > was >> >> >> > on >> >> >> >> the floor,jam-side down. >> >> >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of >> > disaster,real or >> >> >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami > boats or >> >> >> > others. >> >> >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who >> > sometimes >> >> > is >> >> >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the >> >> > skipper >> >> >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I > guess he >> >> >> > managed >> >> >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' >> >> >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing > on 'Loon >> > 3' >> >> > in >> >> >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum >> > origami >> >> >> > twin >> >> >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian > and >> >> >> > Allison >> >> >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great > boat! >> > We >> >> >> > were >> >> >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in > good >> > seas >> >> >> > at >> >> >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and >> > ripping >> >> >> >> along.Excellent sailing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: >> > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >> >> >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- > --- >> > --- >> >> > --- >> >> >> > ---------- >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >> > Terms >> >> > of >> >> >> > Service. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5562|5168|2004-09-21 20:00:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Brent, I can't help but laughing at your postings. Insults speak volumes about the person making the insult, and say nothing about the person being insulted. They show people how they can expect you to react when dealing with you. You and I have a conflict of interests in the advice we offer on this group, in that we stand to make money if someone buys from us. Thus, people should always take our recommendations to build an origami boat with a grain of salt. Which opinion is likely to be the more honest? Someone that advises you to build when they stand to benefit, or someone that advises you to buy when they don't stand to benefit? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:43 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm > proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la > Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer > remains >> open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to > converse with. >> My email to this group is not intended as conversation. >> >> One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, > which we do >> by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in > origami. We >> are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition > that >> results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, > not just >> steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We > build >> custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs > to a >> single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape >> (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without > increasing >> hull thickness. >> >> If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and > calling us >> names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this > group. It >> helps people understand the difference between us and the status > quo in >> origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from > holidays, and >> I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. >> >> Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not > about to >> compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly > get calls >> and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that > business we >> turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is > involved to >> produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a > production boat, >> and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are > often >> mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told > the >> straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, > and how to >> factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate > from >> finance. >> >> Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of > apples to >> oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good > used boat >> and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did > this, and >> were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to > buy a >> bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often > outgrow their >> original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some > years of >> experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the > money to >> custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Casling" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many > seemingly >> > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like > cut and >> > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your > offshore >> > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the > issue, it >> > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board > also have >> > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed > the >> > ocean >> > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the > salt water >> > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can > however >> > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at > least once a >> > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much > longer. As >> > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat > such as >> > a >> > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. > Others may >> > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with > different >> > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit > more >> > credit >> > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life > does not >> > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of > writing >> > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or > support a >> > point >> > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by > David >> > Lewis >> > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I > have surfed >> > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open > Grand Prix >> > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I > would say >> > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous > messages >> > below. >> > Michael >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: >> > To: >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM >> > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> > >> > >> >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a > seaway. >> > It >> >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely > pleasant. >> >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important > safety >> >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the > boat. >> >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to > something >> >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about > sailing >> >> on >> > a >> >> lake. This is for offshore. >> >> >> >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack > assumed because >> >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog > each day, >> > and >> >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never > will. A >> >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting > you, the >> >> more >> >> likely that it will. >> >> >> >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is > nothing in the >> >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with > my wife >> >> and >> >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How > about you >> >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the > wife and >> > kids >> >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round > the buoys >> >> at >> >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd > enjoy >> > hearing >> >> about your sailing over a beer. >> >> >> >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make > it >> >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent > them from >> >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or > two. >> >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It > doesn't >> >> have >> >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go > offshore. >> > Anyone >> >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go > cruising. >> >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within > 1 year I >> >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and > was >> > cruising >> >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, > with a >> > family, >> >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how > anyone can do >> >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter > of public >> >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you > that >> > brought >> >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is > open. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 5563|5563|2004-09-21 20:00:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|cruise SE Asia|What follows is a part of my journal from cruising in Asia. It was originally a series of emails sent back to family and friends, that I have joined into one document. I'm planning to cruise SE Asia this winter. If interested in going cruising in Asia contact me personally. We will be visiting many of the places mentioned in the journal. While it sounds like we are $$ up visiting yacht clubs, nothing could be further from the truth. In SE Asia, we typically stay in yacht clubs for about $2-$5 cdn a day, for which we get the use of the pool and easy access to town for hauling supplies. For occasional use they are a bargain, being virtually empty of boats. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/trip99.htm Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com| 5564|5168|2004-09-21 20:00:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Thanks Colin, Again, the FEA were meant only as a guide. The original problem we were looking at was the question of stress risers that result when a skeg/keel is welded to the outside of the hull, and the transverse framing welded inside. In this situation, there is only a very small area of direct structural contact between the attachment and the framing (very small). I had heard and read from different sources - including the Metal Boat Society web site - that this would lead to problems, but I could find very little research to indicate the nature of the problem, which is why I did the FEA plots. I could see that stress risers would result, but I had no way to show it to the group. The review that you have provided appears to confirm my findings, that installing attachments with no transverse framing, or simply attaching framing to the inside of the hull and the skeg/keel to the outside is likely to result in a problem. There are very large stress risers shown in these situations. The plots shown are by necessity coarse, simply because the run times grew fantastically large when I modeled using a finer scale. I did run a number of tests at finer scales, especially on the first plots, to make sure I wasn't simply modeling the modeler. Most of my results confirmed the recommendations made on the MBS site, so I felt fairly comfortable that they were not grossly misleading. Hopefully, people will benefit from the plots simply by their graphic nature, to show where problems might arise when making structural attachments. I might offer this advise to those who wish to follow up. Ask your reference sources what they think about installing skegs or keels without transverse framing. Ask your references sources if we should be welding skegs or keels to the outside of the hull, and frames to the inside, with only a very small areas of hull serving as direct structural attachment. I have only included a small portion of the work I have done on this topic on our web site. I urge others to take up this work. Calculate the loads from water pressure in surfing conditions, or shock loading of the ballast when pounding to windward, multiply this by the lever arm, and divide it by the surface area of metal at the attachment, and see what sort of stress results. Even low aspect ratio attachments generate high loads. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 4:01 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: >> Greg, > >> 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of >> all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger >> being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to >> know that the analysis was rubbish. > >> >> Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what >> was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end >> up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern > has >> been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by > the >> UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the >> availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used >> inappropriately. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Regards, >> Ted > > > I'd just like to hook onto the back of what Ted wrote about FEA > software and it's use - but first, a brief explanation about the > context of what follows in this post: > > I was recently engaged in a 3-way discussion about OrigamiBoat design > with 2 guys who sail traditionally-framed steel boats. One of these > guys was concerned about the puncture resistance and hull repair > issue, and what follows here is the reply of the other guy, a > professional stress engineer who does some work for NASA, so I guess > he knows his business (!) It's worth pointing out that in both of > these replies he clearly doesn't have a full appreciation of the > finer points of the origami method of construction (yet). > Nevertheless, I hope you find some of what he writes to be of > interest in the ongoing stress/FEA debate. > > REPLY BEGIN: > > [.....], here's a slightly expanded critique of the answer I put up > on the PBO website (I partly answered there because some of it may > have wider interest than just the three of us). > > In general, making a boat frameless doesn't make it significantly > more vulnerable to localised damage than a framed boat. Where the > hull is punctured by an object, the likelihood of it going through is > dependant on four main factors. The impact energy (vessel speed & > weight dependant), the plating thickness, the degree by which the > plating is supported and the size of the impact area. The way these > factors affect the damage are basically as below:- > 1) More impact energy = more likelihood of hole. > 2) Thinner plate = more likelihood of hole. > 3) Plating support. This is a difficult one. The stiffer the support > the less energy the plate will absorb by bending before a hole > appears. This effect is counteracted by the extra strength of the > whole structure - so it may be strong enough not to be punctured > regardless. There is no general solution to this problem - it's got > to be looked at for each thickness/frame/stringer pitch combination. > I wish this were not the case, and it were possible to tabulate it, > as doing so would make my life as a stress engineer much simpler. > 4) The larger the impact area, the less likely a hole is as more > energy can be dissipated over a large area. > > So, where has that got us ? Nowhere so far. > > Basically, origami boats fall within the range of steel boat designs. > Depending on the size, a frameless design may be better. I think > (with only having done accurate calculation for one size of boat), > that the frameless style will be better at resisting damage than > framed boats at heavy displacement, smaller sized boats. This is > because the hull is not so stiff, so more of the structure will > deflect to absorb energy. > Having said that, small steel boats show a general increase in > relative strength compared to large vessels anyway, so the effect > would be very difficult to extract. For larger boats, the frameless > construction will need to have thicker plating for the same puncture > resistance than a framed boat as the unsupported plate area is > larger. When you get up to the size of ships, they are all framed as > it's uneconomic to make the thickness of the plating resist the other > factors that come into play (local buckling etc). > > Once you have a hole, is an origami boat more likely to suffer a > catastrophic structural failure than a framed boat? The answer is > yes, but it's still not very likely. On a framed boat the frames, > stringers and chines will tend to act as crack stoppers (not present > in the frameless construction), and the built-in stresses in a hard > chine steel boat will be less than in an origami boat, so the crack > is less likely to grow by releasing the built in energy of the > distorted plate. However, only someone with zero knowledge of history > would use the sort of brittle steel which needs crack stoppers. Due > to the increased energy of distortion of the plate, the critical > crack length for complete failure of an origami boat will be less > than in a framed boat (everything else being equal - an impossible > caveat!). > > Assuming you have a vessel with a hole in it, is an origami boat more > difficult to repair? I don't believe so. The patch wouldn't have the > same built in stresses as the rest of the hull, so there may be some > residual twist/ unfairness as a result. Think - most cars these days > use a frameless monocoque construction, and they can be repaired to > their original strength and shape. > Also, a correctly carried out butt weld is as strong as the parent > metal, so the only source of potential weakness is the HAZ (which, > with good procedures is not a problem either). > > Where I do have difficulty with origami boats is the comparitively > poor reinforcing at the bow seam. In a head on impact the seam is > well supported by the plating aft of the seam, so it's very stiff. > BUT it isn't very strong. There is none of the brute strength you > find in a design with a keel bar which goes up the stem. Consequently > the seam is inadequately supported and it is also constrained so that > the only mode of energy absorption is fracture. Not good, especially > as it's the line where there is a potentially brittle weld (not a > problem with good welding procedures). > > The other big area of concern is the lack of continuity between the > keel, skeg and the hull. It is not good engineering practice to stick > long appendages perpendicular to a plate without some form of > structural continuity between the two. It would be relatively easy to > repeat what happened to Tony Bulimore in the Southern Ocean a few > years back. > Origami boats are not the only culprits here. Some of the skegs on > the more modern looking Bruce Roberts boats are stuck on like > afterthoughts too. > > In conclusion, Origami boats, I think, are almost as good as normal > boats if built properly. They are more vulnerable to poor build > quality though, and will show a greater reduction in safety than a > framed boat would for the same reduction in build quality. > > > Follow-up post: > > Colin, in response to your Origami posts. I had obviously missed the > fact that origami boats have longitudinal frames (stringers to most > people, but I won't quibble). They make the calculation of local > puncture resistance rather easier - to the stage where it is > tabulated in reliable stress reference books. > As for calculating the strength of the whole hull. Lets say it's not > impossible. It just isn't easy. Unless the designer calculates a > profile for the vessel when it is complete, the stress shape can be > nothing more than a best guess, so the analysis will be 'quite good' > rather than accurate - and a certain extra margin of safety will have > to be incorporated to cover the degree of uncertainty. The problems > associated with 3D finite element stress analysis of boats are not > really down to the complexity of the shape or structure, but two > problems: > 1) The difficulty of defining realistic load cases and > 2) The appaling quality of the FE modellers. They are nowhere near up > to the standard of CAD modellers, so defining the ruling curves in a > boat is awful. To try to get around this problem (and a number of > others) I have actually written a 'Tools' program to address some of > the deficiencies - not least of which is a geometry translator from > DXF to the FE package I use. > This tool is a mere 4300 lines of C++ code out of the 40000 lines of > code in the program (which includes bi-directional translators for > DXF, Wavefront OBJ, Stereo lithography STL, Direct X, then > verification tools, and data extraction tools). The DXF translator > has, in the space of 6 difficult FE jobs, saved me several weeks of > modelling and one of the other tools paid for itself in its first six > seconds of operation. > > REPLY END: > > > I'm still trying to track this guy down, to ask him specifically > about the keel/skeg/hull interface issue, as he clearly hasn't got > the full Origami construction picture yet - but he's a busy fellow, > and this might take some time. I'll get back to the group when > contact is made. Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5565|5481|2004-09-21 23:25:58|Henri Naths|Re: oil coolers|Gerald, If memory serves me right I think 3500 rpm is about 180kph ,2200 rpm, which seem a comfortable engine speed, is about 115kph. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 21 September, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers VW Marine currently manufactures a marine version, ready as a bolt in version. Before I would take it upon myself to install a 3.5-1 gearbox, I believe I would check to see what their engineers have come up with. I used a 2.1-1 box with my 1.9 VW and would use the same box again if installing in another boat. VW rates the motor at a given horsepower at a ridiculous RPM. Who in their right mind would run that engine, for a long period of time, at 4000 RPM where it produces maximum horsepower? My motor sounded about right when I ran it at around 2000 RPM. An easy way to check what VW had in mind for the engine is to drive one of their cars at the speed limit. A quick look at the tachometer should indicate where they designed the engine to run. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > > Generally speaking for a displacment hull the prop shaft should not > exceed 1,000 revolutions per minute. > Transmission reduction ratio should take that into account. > Many diesels like the VW and the numerous light weight higher speed > engines would be better with a 3 to 1 reduction. Most are not > supplied that way. It is often a no extra cost option when purchasing > a new engine. When I built my last boat I had a small Yanmar 2 cyl > 16hp with an available 3.25 to 1 reduction ratio. The company that To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5566|5168|2004-09-22 00:46:42|ben_azo|Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW|Vive la Difference !!! says the Crowd looking at me pointing to a 16mm weld joining 12mm thick aluminum plates in the meta-origami jpg pic in the Folder JPBrouns designed Meta in Files . WOW EXTRA-STRONG !!!!! I realy hope that pic brings a smile on your faces cause : " Als twee honden vechten om een been loopt een derde ermee heen " an old Dutch saying wich my personal Instant Babbelfish Translater converts into : when two dogs fight over a bone a third dog will run away with it. Hé Guys , I realy hope Old uncle Ben's pic can put a smile on your faces . I'd love to see Spencer end up with a fine origami boat , cant we join forces ? L' oignon , sorry , " L' Union fait la Force " (who the hell is gone translate that finesse ?? Just wondering Old Ben from Belgium in the old Europe --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Brent, I can't help but laughing at your postings. Insults speak volumes > about the person making the insult, and say nothing about the person being > insulted. They show people how they can expect you to react when dealing > with you. > > You and I have a conflict of interests in the advice we offer on this group, > in that we stand to make money if someone buys from us. Thus, people should > always take our recommendations to build an origami boat with a grain of > salt. Which opinion is likely to be the more honest? Someone that advises > you to build when they stand to benefit, or someone that advises you to buy > when they don't stand to benefit? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm > > proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la > > Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer > > remains > >> open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to > > converse with. > >> My email to this group is not intended as conversation. > >> > >> One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, > > which we do > >> by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in > > origami. We > >> are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition > > that > >> results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, > > not just > >> steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We > > build > >> custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs > > to a > >> single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape > >> (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without > > increasing > >> hull thickness. > >> > >> If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and > > calling us > >> names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this > > group. It > >> helps people understand the difference between us and the status > > quo in > >> origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from > > holidays, and > >> I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. > >> > >> Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not > > about to > >> compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly > > get calls > >> and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that > > business we > >> turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is > > involved to > >> produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a > > production boat, > >> and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are > > often > >> mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told > > the > >> straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, > > and how to > >> factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate > > from > >> finance. > >> > >> Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of > > apples to > >> oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good > > used boat > >> and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did > > this, and > >> were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to > > buy a > >> bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often > > outgrow their > >> original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some > > years of > >> experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the > > money to > >> custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Michael Casling" > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM > >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many > > seemingly > >> > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like > > cut and > >> > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your > > offshore > >> > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the > > issue, it > >> > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board > > also have > >> > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed > > the > >> > ocean > >> > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the > > salt water > >> > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can > > however > >> > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at > > least once a > >> > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much > > longer. As > >> > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat > > such as > >> > a > >> > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. > > Others may > >> > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with > > different > >> > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit > > more > >> > credit > >> > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life > > does not > >> > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of > > writing > >> > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or > > support a > >> > point > >> > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by > > David > >> > Lewis > >> > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I > > have surfed > >> > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open > > Grand Prix > >> > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I > > would say > >> > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous > > messages > >> > below. > >> > Michael > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: > >> > To: > >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > >> > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > > >> > > >> >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a > > seaway. > >> > It > >> >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely > > pleasant. > >> >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important > > safety > >> >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the > > boat. > >> >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to > > something > >> >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about > > sailing > >> >> on > >> > a > >> >> lake. This is for offshore. > >> >> > >> >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack > > assumed because > >> >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog > > each day, > >> > and > >> >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never > > will. A > >> >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting > > you, the > >> >> more > >> >> likely that it will. > >> >> > >> >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is > > nothing in the > >> >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with > > my wife > >> >> and > >> >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How > > about you > >> >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the > > wife and > >> > kids > >> >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round > > the buoys > >> >> at > >> >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd > > enjoy > >> > hearing > >> >> about your sailing over a beer. > >> >> > >> >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make > > it > >> >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent > > them from > >> >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or > > two. > >> >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It > > doesn't > >> >> have > >> >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go > > offshore. > >> > Anyone > >> >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go > > cruising. > >> >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within > > 1 year I > >> >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and > > was > >> > cruising > >> >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, > > with a > >> > family, > >> >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how > > anyone can do > >> >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> > >> >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter > > of public > >> >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you > > that > >> > brought > >> >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is > > open. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5567|5168|2004-09-22 02:23:05|tronfixr|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|I am no designer of boats, nor am I an engineer of structure or materials. But I took a look at the plots on origamimagic and am quite impressed at the drastic improvement some simple bracing will provide. The 'attachments' and transverse framing work very well as an independent system. I would expect, without attachment to the hull, that very little stress will be translated to the hull. Perhaps I am missing something here but I would think attachment to the hull is desireable with attachments such as keels and skegs. The only attachment to the hull appears to be where the 'attachment' passes through the hull. It would seem to me this situation would result in catistrophic failure should forces be applied differently to the hull and 'attachment' system as in a rocking and/or twisting vessel. Michael Wagner Astronomical Instrument Technician Summit of Mauna Kea Big Island of Hawaii --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Thanks Colin, > > Again, the FEA were meant only as a guide. The original problem we were > looking at was the question of stress risers that result when a skeg/keel is > welded to the outside of the hull, and the transverse framing welded inside. > > In this situation, there is only a very small area of direct structural > contact between the attachment and the framing (very small). I had heard > and read from different sources - including the Metal Boat Society web > site - that this would lead to problems, but I could find very little > research to indicate the nature of the problem, which is why I did the FEA > plots. I could see that stress risers would result, but I had no way to > show it to the group. > > The review that you have provided appears to confirm my findings, that > installing attachments with no transverse framing, or simply attaching > framing to the inside of the hull and the skeg/keel to the outside is likely > to result in a problem. There are very large stress risers shown in these > situations. > > The plots shown are by necessity coarse, simply because the run times grew > fantastically large when I modeled using a finer scale. I did run a number > of tests at finer scales, especially on the first plots, to make sure I > wasn't simply modeling the modeler. Most of my results confirmed the > recommendations made on the MBS site, so I felt fairly comfortable that they > were not grossly misleading. Hopefully, people will benefit from the plots > simply by their graphic nature, to show where problems might arise when > making structural attachments. > > I might offer this advise to those who wish to follow up. Ask your > reference sources what they think about installing skegs or keels without > transverse framing. Ask your references sources if we should be welding > skegs or keels to the outside of the hull, and frames to the inside, with > only a very small areas of hull serving as direct structural attachment. > > I have only included a small portion of the work I have done on this topic > on our web site. I urge others to take up this work. Calculate the loads > from water pressure in surfing conditions, or shock loading of the ballast > when pounding to windward, multiply this by the lever arm, and divide it by > the surface area of metal at the attachment, and see what sort of stress > results. Even low aspect ratio attachments generate high loads. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sae140" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 4:01 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > >> Greg, > > > >> 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of > >> all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger > >> being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to > >> know that the analysis was rubbish. > > > >> > >> Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what > >> was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end > >> up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern > > has > >> been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by > > the > >> UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the > >> availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used > >> inappropriately. > >> > >> Hope this helps. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Ted > > > > > > I'd just like to hook onto the back of what Ted wrote about FEA > > software and it's use - but first, a brief explanation about the > > context of what follows in this post: > > > > I was recently engaged in a 3-way discussion about OrigamiBoat design > > with 2 guys who sail traditionally-framed steel boats. One of these > > guys was concerned about the puncture resistance and hull repair > > issue, and what follows here is the reply of the other guy, a > > professional stress engineer who does some work for NASA, so I guess > > he knows his business (!) It's worth pointing out that in both of > > these replies he clearly doesn't have a full appreciation of the > > finer points of the origami method of construction (yet). > > Nevertheless, I hope you find some of what he writes to be of > > interest in the ongoing stress/FEA debate. > > > > REPLY BEGIN: > > > > [.....], here's a slightly expanded critique of the answer I put up > > on the PBO website (I partly answered there because some of it may > > have wider interest than just the three of us). > > > > In general, making a boat frameless doesn't make it significantly > > more vulnerable to localised damage than a framed boat. Where the > > hull is punctured by an object, the likelihood of it going through is > > dependant on four main factors. The impact energy (vessel speed & > > weight dependant), the plating thickness, the degree by which the > > plating is supported and the size of the impact area. The way these > > factors affect the damage are basically as below:- > > 1) More impact energy = more likelihood of hole. > > 2) Thinner plate = more likelihood of hole. > > 3) Plating support. This is a difficult one. The stiffer the support > > the less energy the plate will absorb by bending before a hole > > appears. This effect is counteracted by the extra strength of the > > whole structure - so it may be strong enough not to be punctured > > regardless. There is no general solution to this problem - it's got > > to be looked at for each thickness/frame/stringer pitch combination. > > I wish this were not the case, and it were possible to tabulate it, > > as doing so would make my life as a stress engineer much simpler. > > 4) The larger the impact area, the less likely a hole is as more > > energy can be dissipated over a large area. > > > > So, where has that got us ? Nowhere so far. > > > > Basically, origami boats fall within the range of steel boat designs. > > Depending on the size, a frameless design may be better. I think > > (with only having done accurate calculation for one size of boat), > > that the frameless style will be better at resisting damage than > > framed boats at heavy displacement, smaller sized boats. This is > > because the hull is not so stiff, so more of the structure will > > deflect to absorb energy. > > Having said that, small steel boats show a general increase in > > relative strength compared to large vessels anyway, so the effect > > would be very difficult to extract. For larger boats, the frameless > > construction will need to have thicker plating for the same puncture > > resistance than a framed boat as the unsupported plate area is > > larger. When you get up to the size of ships, they are all framed as > > it's uneconomic to make the thickness of the plating resist the other > > factors that come into play (local buckling etc). > > > > Once you have a hole, is an origami boat more likely to suffer a > > catastrophic structural failure than a framed boat? The answer is > > yes, but it's still not very likely. On a framed boat the frames, > > stringers and chines will tend to act as crack stoppers (not present > > in the frameless construction), and the built-in stresses in a hard > > chine steel boat will be less than in an origami boat, so the crack > > is less likely to grow by releasing the built in energy of the > > distorted plate. However, only someone with zero knowledge of history > > would use the sort of brittle steel which needs crack stoppers. Due > > to the increased energy of distortion of the plate, the critical > > crack length for complete failure of an origami boat will be less > > than in a framed boat (everything else being equal - an impossible > > caveat!). > > > > Assuming you have a vessel with a hole in it, is an origami boat more > > difficult to repair? I don't believe so. The patch wouldn't have the > > same built in stresses as the rest of the hull, so there may be some > > residual twist/ unfairness as a result. Think - most cars these days > > use a frameless monocoque construction, and they can be repaired to > > their original strength and shape. > > Also, a correctly carried out butt weld is as strong as the parent > > metal, so the only source of potential weakness is the HAZ (which, > > with good procedures is not a problem either). > > > > Where I do have difficulty with origami boats is the comparitively > > poor reinforcing at the bow seam. In a head on impact the seam is > > well supported by the plating aft of the seam, so it's very stiff. > > BUT it isn't very strong. There is none of the brute strength you > > find in a design with a keel bar which goes up the stem. Consequently > > the seam is inadequately supported and it is also constrained so that > > the only mode of energy absorption is fracture. Not good, especially > > as it's the line where there is a potentially brittle weld (not a > > problem with good welding procedures). > > > > The other big area of concern is the lack of continuity between the > > keel, skeg and the hull. It is not good engineering practice to stick > > long appendages perpendicular to a plate without some form of > > structural continuity between the two. It would be relatively easy to > > repeat what happened to Tony Bulimore in the Southern Ocean a few > > years back. > > Origami boats are not the only culprits here. Some of the skegs on > > the more modern looking Bruce Roberts boats are stuck on like > > afterthoughts too. > > > > In conclusion, Origami boats, I think, are almost as good as normal > > boats if built properly. They are more vulnerable to poor build > > quality though, and will show a greater reduction in safety than a > > framed boat would for the same reduction in build quality. > > > > > > Follow-up post: > > > > Colin, in response to your Origami posts. I had obviously missed the > > fact that origami boats have longitudinal frames (stringers to most > > people, but I won't quibble). They make the calculation of local > > puncture resistance rather easier - to the stage where it is > > tabulated in reliable stress reference books. > > As for calculating the strength of the whole hull. Lets say it's not > > impossible. It just isn't easy. Unless the designer calculates a > > profile for the vessel when it is complete, the stress shape can be > > nothing more than a best guess, so the analysis will be 'quite good' > > rather than accurate - and a certain extra margin of safety will have > > to be incorporated to cover the degree of uncertainty. The problems > > associated with 3D finite element stress analysis of boats are not > > really down to the complexity of the shape or structure, but two > > problems: > > 1) The difficulty of defining realistic load cases and > > 2) The appaling quality of the FE modellers. They are nowhere near up > > to the standard of CAD modellers, so defining the ruling curves in a > > boat is awful. To try to get around this problem (and a number of > > others) I have actually written a 'Tools' program to address some of > > the deficiencies - not least of which is a geometry translator from > > DXF to the FE package I use. > > This tool is a mere 4300 lines of C++ code out of the 40000 lines of > > code in the program (which includes bi-directional translators for > > DXF, Wavefront OBJ, Stereo lithography STL, Direct X, then > > verification tools, and data extraction tools). The DXF translator > > has, in the space of 6 difficult FE jobs, saved me several weeks of > > modelling and one of the other tools paid for itself in its first six > > seconds of operation. > > > > REPLY END: > > > > > > I'm still trying to track this guy down, to ask him specifically > > about the keel/skeg/hull interface issue, as he clearly hasn't got > > the full Origami construction picture yet - but he's a busy fellow, > > and this might take some time. I'll get back to the group when > > contact is made. Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5568|5168|2004-09-22 04:18:09|sae140|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Well as this is an open forum and not a private conversation, I feel quite entitled to chuck my 2 pence worth in here. > Brent, I can't help but laughing at your postings. Insults speak volumes about the person making the insult, and say nothing about the person being insulted. They show people how they can expect you to react when dealing with you. Greg. Brent is not the only one to criticise you. There are plenty of examples to be found in the archive posts. I'm beginning to suspect that courting such responses is part of your sales strategy, on the basis that "any publicity is good publicity" etc. > You and I have a conflict of interests in the advice we offer on this group, in that we stand to make money if someone buys from us. With the greatest of respect Greg, this is not a particularly good basis for an argument, as your own prices for plans and Brent's are light-years apart, as indeed are your respective financial and life- style philosophies. > Thus, people should always take our recommendations to build an origami boat with a grain of salt. Which opinion is likely to be the more honest? Someone that advises you to build when they stand to benefit, or someone that advises you to buy when they don't stand to benefit? If you examine the archives in detail, you will read (for example) that BS has mentioned that even a ferro-cement hull could be purchased for very little money, sailed for a few years, and owe the purchaser nothing. Since I've been a member of this group, the impresson I've gained is that BS's main concern is to get people out on the water as quickly and as cheaply as possible. I think it's fair to allege that this is not your own principal aim ? (Previous postings on this thread have been clipped as a respect to others.) Regards Colin | 5569|5481|2004-09-22 04:21:46|sae140|Re: oil coolers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gerald, > If memory serves me right I think 3500 rpm is about 180kph ,2200 rpm, which seem a comfortable engine speed, is about 115kph. > H. I've been doing quite a lot of research lately (albeit on smaller 4- cylinder marinised petrol engines), and the info obtained with each engine is broadly the same: that the manufacturer's continuous bhp figures are approx one half max bhp, and are at, or are very close to the max torque figures for that engine. So typically: max bhp at 4,500 rpm; max torque at 2,300 rpm; recommended continuous marine operation (12hr rating - whatever that means): 2,200 rpm. Which seems to reinforce what you are saying. Colin| 5570|5168|2004-09-22 04:25:46|sae140|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Thanks Colin, It's good to hear that the info was understandable to somebody (!). In this matter I'm only the messenger of course, not being a particularly numerate person myself .... Indeed, I'm still trying to find a real-world application for the solution of quadratic equations I spent hours sweating over some 45 years ago I've invited the bloke to join so he can talk to you guys directly, but my understanding is that he's tied-up with some Airbus work right now. Colin| 5571|5168|2004-09-22 09:45:46|Henri Naths|Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW|united we stand????? ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 21 September, 2004 10:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW Vive la Difference !!! says the Crowd looking at me pointing to a 16mm weld joining 12mm thick aluminum plates in the meta-origami jpg pic in the Folder JPBrouns designed Meta in Files . WOW EXTRA-STRONG !!!!! I realy hope that pic brings a smile on your faces cause : " Als twee honden vechten om een been loopt een derde ermee heen " an old Dutch saying wich my personal Instant Babbelfish Translater converts into : when two dogs fight over a bone a third dog will run away with it. Hé Guys , I realy hope Old uncle Ben's pic can put a smile on your faces . I'd love to see Spencer end up with a fine origami boat , cant we join forces ? L' oignon , sorry , " L' Union fait la Force " (who the hell is gone translate that finesse ?? Just wondering Old Ben from Belgium in the old Europe --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Brent, I can't help but laughing at your postings. Insults speak volumes > about the person making the insult, and say nothing about the person being > insulted. They show people how they can expect you to react when dealing > with you. > > You and I have a conflict of interests in the advice we offer on this group, > in that we stand to make money if someone buys from us. Thus, people should > always take our recommendations to build an origami boat with a grain of > salt. Which opinion is likely to be the more honest? Someone that advises > you to build when they stand to benefit, or someone that advises you to buy > when they don't stand to benefit? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:43 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > > > It's this arrogant , elitist, self righteous condescension which I'm > > proud to say makes you very different from the rest of us. Vive la > > Difference . Most of know what we'd rather deal with personally. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Mike, I am in Kelowna a lot these days building a boat and my offer > > remains > >> open. 17788288823. You will find I am a very easy person to > > converse with. > >> My email to this group is not intended as conversation. > >> > >> One of my functions in this group is to promote Origami Magic, > > which we do > >> by contrasting and comparing our designs with the status quo in > > origami. We > >> are the heretics on this site, and as such expect the opposition > > that > >> results from assuming that position. We build in alloy and steel, > > not just > >> steel. We build 1, 2 and 3 chine designs, not just 1 chine. We > > build > >> custom designs to replicate almost any hull form, not just designs > > to a > >> single hull form. We think transverse framing and hull shape > >> (chines/centerlines) are important to support attachments without > > increasing > >> hull thickness. > >> > >> If anything our business goes up when people start cussing us and > > calling us > >> names, and generally disrespecting Alex and the rules of this > > group. It > >> helps people understand the difference between us and the status > > quo in > >> origami. Business has definitely jumped since I returned from > > holidays, and > >> I have only a few minutes a week to spend with the group. > >> > >> Anyone that knows me also knows my passion for offshore. I am not > > about to > >> compromise a lifetime of experience to make a sale. We regularly > > get calls > >> and emails from people reading these postings. Most of that > > business we > >> turn down. Many first time builders are naive about what is > > involved to > >> produce a level of finish any where near comparable with a > > production boat, > >> and don't understand how this affects time and costs. They are > > often > >> mislead on this site by best case anecdotes, rather than being told > > the > >> straight goods. They are rarely told what to expect on average, > > and how to > >> factor in the risk cost of building, which you should appreciate > > from > >> finance. > >> > >> Thus, they often make a decision to build based on a comparison of > > apples to > >> oranges. For those people we typically recommend they buy a good > > used boat > >> and use the money they save on rent to pay for the boat. We did > > this, and > >> were able to buy a boat for free, and then used the rent savings to > > buy a > >> bigger boat and a house. As people gain experience they often > > outgrow their > >> original idea of what they want in a boat. When they have some > > years of > >> experience under their belts, they can sell the boat and use the > > money to > >> custom build one to suit their increased level of experience. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Michael Casling" > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:58 PM > >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> > It is difficult to reply to such a long post with so many > > seemingly > >> > unrelated topics and I think you said before, you do not like > > cut and > >> > paste. I probably deserved a rebuttal for my comments. Your > > offshore > >> > experience is greater than most but I do not believe that is the > > issue, it > >> > is more about how you present your views. Others on this board > > also have > >> > offshore experience and are easy to converse with. I have crossed > > the > >> > ocean > >> > but not in a small sailboat. I have spent plenty of time on the > > salt water > >> > puddle but as you have stated I am currently on a big lake. I can > > however > >> > leave the lake and sail in other areas. My wife and I sail at > > least once a > >> > week and have done so for over twenty years. I have sailed much > > longer. As > >> > to sailing experience I think it is best gained from a small boat > > such as > >> > a > >> > dinghy. The knowledge gained will serve well on any size boat. > > Others may > >> > choose to do it the way you did, but everyone is different with > > different > >> > priorities in their lives and I respect that. I also give a bit > > more > >> > credit > >> > to my fellow sailors even if they do have the odd problem. Life > > does not > >> > appear to be perfect. Correct me if I am wrong but your style of > > writing > >> > makes it appear as if you are trying to promote something or > > support a > >> > point > >> > of view, or possibly to sell something. I have read Ice Bird by > > David > >> > Lewis > >> > and that is scary enough for me to take adequate precaution. I > > have surfed > >> > the big waves in Hawaii and NZ, raced motorcycles at the open > > Grand Prix > >> > level ( with an expert licence ) and I managed to survive so I > > would say > >> > that I am cautious. I will be deleting most of the previous > > messages > >> > below. > >> > Michael > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: > >> > To: > >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 AM > >> > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > > >> > > >> >> Many people are not aware of the dangers of an engine loose in a > > seaway. > >> > It > >> >> happens more commonly than one would expect, and it is rarely > > pleasant. > >> >> Strapping the engine to a frame as noted earlier is an important > > safety > >> >> precaution. The same applies to any heavy object inside the > > boat. > >> >> Batteries, spare anchors, chain, stove, etc., etc. Tie them to > > something > >> >> solid, don't just lay them in the bilge. I'm not talking about > > sailing > >> >> on > >> > a > >> >> lake. This is for offshore. > >> >> > >> >> The real problem Brent pointed out was complacency. Jack > > assumed because > >> >> the mount hadn't broken it never would. People walk by a dog > > each day, > >> > and > >> >> after awhile, if the dog doesn't bite them, they expect it never > > will. A > >> >> boat isn't like that. The longer a part goes without biting > > you, the > >> >> more > >> >> likely that it will. > >> >> > >> >> Some may see this a fear mongering. It isn't. 7 years is > > nothing in the > >> >> life of a boat. I have nearly 20 years offshore sailing, with > > my wife > >> >> and > >> >> children aboard. No losses - all on a shoestring budget. How > > about you > >> >> Mike? How much offshore sailing have you done? Ever had the > > wife and > >> > kids > >> >> along offshore? You might find it a bit different than round > > the buoys > >> >> at > >> >> KYC. I've got no problem at all if you've done this, and I'd > > enjoy > >> > hearing > >> >> about your sailing over a beer. > >> >> > >> >> The simple fact is that most people on this site will never make > > it > >> >> offshore. Most people put obstacles in their path that prevent > > them from > >> >> going. Some will make it, but most will return after a year or > > two. > >> >> Usually broke, lots of times with their marriage in ruin. It > > doesn't > >> >> have > >> >> to be that way. Lots more people from this site could go > > offshore. > >> > Anyone > >> >> can repeat what I did. Tons of debt, no boat - I decided to go > > cruising. > >> >> My solution? Remove the obstacles. Don't add new ones. Within > > 1 year I > >> >> was cruising in Mexico. 2 years later I had a bigger boat, and > > was > >> > cruising > >> >> Hawaii. Then, off across the Pacific. I returned debt free, > > with a > >> > family, > >> >> boat, house, and money in the bank. And I've published how > > anyone can do > >> >> it, on this site, and charged no fee. > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> > >> >> ps: the issue I said I would drop was notification on a matter > > of public > >> >> safety, in the interest of harmony in the group. Wasn't it you > > that > >> > brought > >> >> it back up while I was on vacation? Once re-opened the topic is > > open. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5572|5168|2004-09-22 10:34:23|Michael Casling|Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW|Interesting expresion, it is exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the Dennis Ganley designs. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW united we stand????? ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 21 September, 2004 10:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW " Als twee honden vechten om een been loopt een derde ermee heen " an old Dutch saying wich my personal Instant Babbelfish Translater converts into : when two dogs fight over a bone a third dog will run away with it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5573|5481|2004-09-22 10:40:21|Michael Casling|Re: oil coolers|My Nissan will do over 4000 revs but max torque is at 2500 which is just what I need to power the fishing boat onto a plane and I should be able to cruise at the lower revs as well. I think is is advisable to use a prop that would allow the max high revs at WOT but run the motor at the lower revs. The Yanmar help site has info on sizing props to the engine. However there are already Isuzu owners who can tell us what they have done. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:21 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gerald, > If memory serves me right I think 3500 rpm is about 180kph ,2200 rpm, which seem a comfortable engine speed, is about 115kph. > H. I've been doing quite a lot of research lately (albeit on smaller 4- cylinder marinised petrol engines), and the info obtained with each engine is broadly the same: that the manufacturer's continuous bhp figures are approx one half max bhp, and are at, or are very close to the max torque figures for that engine. So typically: max bhp at 4,500 rpm; max torque at 2,300 rpm; recommended continuous marine operation (12hr rating - whatever that means): 2,200 rpm. Which seems to reinforce what you are saying. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5574|5481|2004-09-22 14:46:33|Henri Naths|Re: oil coolers|Hey Michael, Just out of curiosity, are their there any fish left in that lake. I fish Slave Lake for walleye. Great fishing !! H Ps pardon the off topic genre but tis fishin' man!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 22 September, 2004 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers My Nissan will do over 4000 revs but max torque is at 2500 which is just what I need to power the fishing boat onto a plane and I should be able to cruise at the lower revs as well. I think is is advisable to use a prop that would allow the max high revs at WOT but run the motor at the lower revs. The Yanmar help site has info on sizing props to the engine. However there are already Isuzu owners who can tell us what they have done. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:21 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gerald, > If memory serves me right I think 3500 rpm is about 180kph ,2200 rpm, which seem a comfortable engine speed, is about 115kph. > H. I've been doing quite a lot of research lately (albeit on smaller 4- cylinder marinised petrol engines), and the info obtained with each engine is broadly the same: that the manufacturer's continuous bhp figures are approx one half max bhp, and are at, or are very close to the max torque figures for that engine. So typically: max bhp at 4,500 rpm; max torque at 2,300 rpm; recommended continuous marine operation (12hr rating - whatever that means): 2,200 rpm. Which seems to reinforce what you are saying. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5575|5481|2004-09-22 14:53:55|Henri Naths|Re: oil coolers|Hey all pardon this brain fart but wouldn't an automatic trans. automatically find the right prop load (torque) to engine speed (torque) and select a gear ratio according to the circumstances.? H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 22 September, 2004 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers My Nissan will do over 4000 revs but max torque is at 2500 which is just what I need to power the fishing boat onto a plane and I should be able to cruise at the lower revs as well. I think is is advisable to use a prop that would allow the max high revs at WOT but run the motor at the lower revs. The Yanmar help site has info on sizing props to the engine. However there are already Isuzu owners who can tell us what they have done. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:21 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gerald, > If memory serves me right I think 3500 rpm is about 180kph ,2200 rpm, which seem a comfortable engine speed, is about 115kph. > H. I've been doing quite a lot of research lately (albeit on smaller 4- cylinder marinised petrol engines), and the info obtained with each engine is broadly the same: that the manufacturer's continuous bhp figures are approx one half max bhp, and are at, or are very close to the max torque figures for that engine. So typically: max bhp at 4,500 rpm; max torque at 2,300 rpm; recommended continuous marine operation (12hr rating - whatever that means): 2,200 rpm. Which seems to reinforce what you are saying. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5576|5168|2004-09-22 15:54:33|fmichael graham|Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW|Michael: I have been jumping back & forth on the issue of "origami" or Ganley. I understand that his daughter is handling the plans these days, but I have only been able to find a U.S. company's website for plans. Do you - or anyone else reading this post - know if it is possible to buy the plans directly from New Zealand? Thanks, Mike Michael Casling wrote: Interesting expresion, it is exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the Dennis Ganley designs. Michael --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5577|5168|2004-09-22 17:27:45|Michael Casling|Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW|I did a search using Dennis Ganley sail boat and got some info but I did not check to see where they are located. My last trip to NZ was 1984 which was before his time so I did not know of him. I may get a bit of info from another Kiwi designer. Notice he had an engineering education. The principal guy at steel yachts in Auckland died a couple of years ago. I assume they are still there. It is a big yard and has worked on a lot of boats of all construction types. If Ganleys daughter is in Auckland I can find someone to track her down. I believe we have members on this group from there. If not my brother lives up the road a bit. He had ring seats for the Americas cup races but they may not be back for a while. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW Michael: I have been jumping back & forth on the issue of "origami" or Ganley. I understand that his daughter is handling the plans these days, but I have only been able to find a U.S. company's website for plans. Do you - or anyone else reading this post - know if it is possible to buy the plans directly from New Zealand? Thanks, Mike Michael Casling wrote: Interesting expresion, it is exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the Dennis Ganley designs. Michael --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5578|5481|2004-09-22 17:34:47|Michael Casling|Re: oil coolers|I have caught a few trout over the years and some ling cod. The trout are deep during the summer months. I want to take the fishing boat to Bamfield or Ucluelet and fish for salmon and halibut. The sailboat is too big for a short trip which is why I got the 18 foot aluminum boat. Was actually thinking of a small sailboat to use but it takes to long to get 12 miles out for the halibut. The farm boss did not want me to use the rubber ducky and she approves of this boat as it has good freeboard and flotation. Just got to get the diesel installed, maybe this winter. Will be looking for someone to go fishing when I am done. Got the truck and camper, both old and purchased cheap. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers Hey Michael, Just out of curiosity, are their there any fish left in that lake. I fish Slave Lake for walleye. Great fishing !! H Ps pardon the off topic genre but tis fishin' man!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 22 September, 2004 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers My Nissan will do over 4000 revs but max torque is at 2500 which is just what I need to power the fishing boat onto a plane and I should be able to cruise at the lower revs as well. I think is is advisable to use a prop that would allow the max high revs at WOT but run the motor at the lower revs. The Yanmar help site has info on sizing props to the engine. However there are already Isuzu owners who can tell us what they have done. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5579|5481|2004-09-22 17:43:02|denis buggy|Re: oil coolers|dear Michael , it sounds simple however a few points to consider , when you load the prop the pitch will push the shaft into the box as it is either push the boat or push the box a thrust bearing is frequently advised when using a non marine box . a marine box simply has a gear driven pump which compresses drive plates together in oil and spins the prop shaft , the plates slip only while being engaged and provide a lock up clutch almost instantly with no engine drive slip and no heating of oil as fluid merely has to keep a piston seal pressed against the drive plates .there are clutch packs in most auto boxes or brake bands in the older however the fluid flywheel some times is not fitted with a centrifugal clutch to lock up initial drive through the torque converter and oil will heat and drive will slip and fuel will be wasted . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers Hey all pardon this brain fart but wouldn't an automatic trans. automatically find the right prop load (torque) to engine speed (torque) and select a gear ratio according to the circumstances.? H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 22 September, 2004 8:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers My Nissan will do over 4000 revs but max torque is at 2500 which is just what I need to power the fishing boat onto a plane and I should be able to cruise at the lower revs as well. I think is is advisable to use a prop that would allow the max high revs at WOT but run the motor at the lower revs. The Yanmar help site has info on sizing props to the engine. However there are already Isuzu owners who can tell us what they have done. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:21 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: oil coolers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Gerald, > If memory serves me right I think 3500 rpm is about 180kph ,2200 rpm, which seem a comfortable engine speed, is about 115kph. > H. I've been doing quite a lot of research lately (albeit on smaller 4- cylinder marinised petrol engines), and the info obtained with each engine is broadly the same: that the manufacturer's continuous bhp figures are approx one half max bhp, and are at, or are very close to the max torque figures for that engine. So typically: max bhp at 4,500 rpm; max torque at 2,300 rpm; recommended continuous marine operation (12hr rating - whatever that means): 2,200 rpm. Which seems to reinforce what you are saying. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5580|5481|2004-09-23 04:19:08|thcain@octa4.net.au|Re: oil coolers|On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:45:05 -0000 "brentswain38" wrote: >I can't see how the oil , after flowing all thru the >engine could >have a temperature which is one degree different from >that of the >engine. Cooling the engine should be enough.Transmissions >are >different and use an aluminium box with water flowing >thru it bolted >to the side of the tranny , in the case of the hurth. > Brent In the case of diesels designed for auto use, the heat loss from the sump aided by vehicle movement = airflow makes the difference when compared with an enclosed power unit. Diesels often use oil jets in the crankcase directed to the underside of the pistons to assist in control of temperature of the piston crown. This usually leads to a higher than (petrol) normal? oil temperature and an oil cooler in those instances where the temperature of the lubricant can't be managed by the normal engine coolant system. The very early VW Golf/Rabbit conversions ran into this problem and the addition of an oil cooler fixed the problem. I would not be surprised if this situation occurred in other non-marine-designed engines. Diesels have a high efficiency in terms of conversion of the heat value of the fuel versus the output power, and are still favoured for economy, with the exceptions of the highly optimised V-Tech units in petrol. The exhaust temperature of a diesel is normally lower per unit output than an equivalent petrol unit.| 5581|5557|2004-09-23 07:58:02|Ben Tucker|Re: Foam and fire protection|Hi How much does the foam/glue expand? Would the aluminium foil backed stuff help retard fire? I will try tonight as I have some on the boat. Cheers Ben| 5582|5582|2004-09-23 09:01:02|normanbywaite|fresh water scuppers|Hi Folks, Lurker Matt here. I was daydreaming again today, when i should have been working, and started wondering if anyone has thought of/tried having scuppers that lead internally. My thought was that if designed right an arrangement could be made that would route water from the decks downhill to drains on the transom, but when it's raining a valve could re-direct the rainwater to the fresh water tank. If the bullwarks were, say, four inches above the deck, they'd catch a fair amount of rainwater, provided you let a few litres run through first to wash the seawater off the decks. But perhaps such an arrangement wouldn't drain the decks of seawater fast enough in a boisterous sea? This occurred to me while i was lusting over the flush decks of a Wylo II, on a website in an earlier post. On that note, has anyone discussed the suitability of the Wylo II design for origami construction? The top chine seems to be above the waterline, does that make it unsuitable? I've read Brent's argument against flush decks, and very convincing it was too. But i can't help myself, i just WANT them. Cheers, Matt The white-collar dreamer, who plans to build in mid 2005.| 5583|1761|2004-09-23 09:24:59|fenixrises|Re: Electrolysis|Hi all, Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, Ca. He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of some type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the bonding system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the waterline. The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect against electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at it. A couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online and evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system has been developed very well by now. Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in a harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then check the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would then design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted of heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was laid in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to the boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in the slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for aluminum boats in a "hot" location like Newport. My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived aboard my boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft and an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The zincs were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was f/g with no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a couple year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually undamaged after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the spares with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time for new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal boat, especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs if for no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. Take care, Fred "sae140" wrote: > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your anodes > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend the > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the > electrical system in your boat. > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the fruits > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while discussion !! > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint thing. > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the Acme > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make some > sense of these claims. > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo that's > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can see > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and con's of > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of sharing > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a constant > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- > intentioned recommendations. > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to use > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you take a > calculated risk. > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > In contrast: > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the water for > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any anodes > attached. > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline (mild > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of rudder > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once (built > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think that's > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more conventional > installation. > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not been > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of the > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting the > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar metals. > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin with, > just to see if they're needed). > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' insurance, > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source doesn't > fit well with me. > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the zinc > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view of > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. Creating > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble than > it's worth. > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... > > Regards > > Colin > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode-out > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper pipe !!| 5584|1761|2004-09-23 10:56:43|John Jones|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation transformer on your shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your boat but will seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore provided ground and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but returned to the transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and electrolosis because the hull you are standing on is not part of the electrical circuit. I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, Ca. > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of some > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the bonding > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the waterline. > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect against > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at it. A > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online and > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system has > been developed very well by now. > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in a > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then check > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would then > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted of > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was laid > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to the > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in the > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for aluminum > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived aboard my > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft and > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The zincs > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was f/g with > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a couple > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually undamaged > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the spares > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time for > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal boat, > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs if for > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > Take care, > Fred > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your > anodes > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend > the > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > fruits > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > discussion !! > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > thing. > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the > Acme > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make > some > > sense of these claims. > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo > that's > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can see > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and con's > of > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of sharing > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > constant > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- > > intentioned recommendations. > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to use > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you take > a > > calculated risk. > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > In contrast: > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the water > for > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > anodes > > attached. > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline (mild > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of rudder > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once (built > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think that's > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > conventional > > installation. > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not > been > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of the > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting the > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar metals. > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin with, > > just to see if they're needed). > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > insurance, > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > doesn't > > fit well with me. > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the > zinc > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view of > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. Creating > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble than > > it's worth. > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... > > > > Regards > > > > Colin > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode-out > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > pipe !! | 5585|1761|2004-09-23 11:56:28|Marcel Demers|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Hi John, (we talked on the phone about my motor for sale) Question: if the isolation transformer separate the ground of the boat from the shore ground and my electrical outlets are not grounded on the hull, witch in my case are not, but goes back to the transformer, than where is the A/C 110v system grounded to? tell me if I'm mistaking but isn't it grounded on the boat side of the isolation transformer and then grounded to the hull? If I am right, considaring the cost and weight of a isolation transformer, couldn't I install a hull grounded wire to a on/off switch in or near the A/C panel, one on the boat side of the panel and one on the shore side of the panel with an amp meter on both, then I could see if and where a problem like stray current would accure and could prevent it just by switching the ground to the off position, could this system work on my BS36....thanks Marcel Demers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation transformer on your > shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your boat but will > seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore provided ground > and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but returned to the > transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and electrolosis > because the hull you are standing on is not part of the electrical circuit. > I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. > John > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, Ca. > > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of some > > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and > > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the bonding > > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the waterline. > > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these > > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was > > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect against > > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at it. A > > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online and > > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system has > > been developed very well by now. > > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in a > > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then check > > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would then > > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted of > > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was laid > > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to the > > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in the > > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for aluminum > > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived aboard my > > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft and > > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The zincs > > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was f/g with > > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a couple > > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually undamaged > > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the spares > > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time for > > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal boat, > > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs if for > > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > > > Take care, > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your > > anodes > > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend > > the > > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the > > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > > fruits > > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > > discussion !! > > > > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > > thing. > > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the > > Acme > > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make > > some > > > sense of these claims. > > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo > > that's > > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can see > > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and con's > > of > > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I > > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of sharing > > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > > constant > > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- > > > intentioned recommendations. > > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to use > > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you take > > a > > > calculated risk. > > > > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > > > In contrast: > > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the water > > for > > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > > anodes > > > attached. > > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline (mild > > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of rudder > > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once (built > > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think that's > > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > > conventional > > > installation. > > > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not > > been > > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of the > > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting the > > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar metals. > > > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy > > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also > > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin with, > > > just to see if they're needed). > > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > > insurance, > > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > > doesn't > > > fit well with me. > > > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode > > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like > > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the > > zinc > > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles > > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view of > > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and > > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. Creating > > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble than > > > it's worth. > > > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string > > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode- out > > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > > pipe !! | 5586|1761|2004-09-23 11:56:35|fenixrises|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Hi John, Interesting about isolation transformers. In the days before ground fault circuit interuptors (GFCI of GFI) isolation transformers were sometimes used to power swimming pool lights. Take care, Fred "John Jones" wrote: > Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation transformer on your > shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your boat but will > seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore provided ground > and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but returned to the > transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and electrolosis > because the hull you are standing on is not part of the electrical circuit. > I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. > John > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, Ca. > > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of some > > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and > > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the bonding > > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the waterline. > > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these > > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was > > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect against > > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at it. A > > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online and > > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system has > > been developed very well by now. > > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in a > > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then check > > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would then > > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted of > > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was laid > > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to the > > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in the > > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for aluminum > > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived aboard my > > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft and > > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The zincs > > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was f/g with > > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a couple > > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually undamaged > > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the spares > > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time for > > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal boat, > > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs if for > > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > > > Take care, > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your > > anodes > > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend > > the > > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the > > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > > fruits > > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > > discussion !! > > > > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > > thing. > > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the > > Acme > > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make > > some > > > sense of these claims. > > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo > > that's > > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can see > > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and con's > > of > > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I > > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of sharing > > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > > constant > > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- > > > intentioned recommendations. > > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to use > > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you take > > a > > > calculated risk. > > > > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > > > In contrast: > > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the water > > for > > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > > anodes > > > attached. > > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline (mild > > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of rudder > > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once (built > > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think that's > > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > > conventional > > > installation. > > > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not > > been > > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of the > > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting the > > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar metals. > > > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy > > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also > > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin with, > > > just to see if they're needed). > > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > > insurance, > > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > > doesn't > > > fit well with me. > > > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode > > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like > > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the > > zinc > > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles > > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view of > > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and > > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. Creating > > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble than > > > it's worth. > > > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string > > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode- out > > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > > pipe !! | 5587|5582|2004-09-23 12:22:48|ben_azo|Re: fresh water scuppers|Hi Matt, the Nick Skeates Wylo II is presented with some keel and rigoptions , and 32' - 33' is an ideal allrounder size boat. Personaly I see no reason why she could not be redesigned for building in what you call " Origami " , steel , aluminum real frameless or not . As a white-collar dreamer do you plan to build the hull & deck yourself or have it build for you by a professional builder ? A well designed awning or tentsystem looks more practical for collecting rainwater , a small watermaker sure is easy to install for longer passages . Tell us more about your project Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Hi Folks, > Lurker Matt here. I was daydreaming again today, when i should have > been working, and started wondering if anyone has thought of/tried > having scuppers that lead internally. > My thought was that if designed right an arrangement could be made > that would route water from the decks downhill to drains on the > transom, but when it's raining a valve could re-direct the rainwater > to the fresh water tank. > If the bullwarks were, say, four inches above the deck, they'd catch > a fair amount of rainwater, provided you let a few litres run through > first to wash the seawater off the decks. But perhaps such an > arrangement wouldn't drain the decks of seawater fast enough in a > boisterous sea? > This occurred to me while i was lusting over the flush decks of a > Wylo II, on a website in an earlier post. On that note, has anyone > discussed the suitability of the Wylo II design for origami > construction? The top chine seems to be above the waterline, does > that make it unsuitable? > I've read Brent's argument against flush decks, and very convincing > it was too. But i can't help myself, i just WANT them. > Cheers, > Matt > The white-collar dreamer, who plans to build in mid 2005. | 5588|1761|2004-09-23 12:34:09|fenixrises|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Hi all, For a good explanation of boat electrics and electrolysis I found this link from a previous post most helpful. http://www.sailmail.com/grounds.htm Take care, Fred "Marcel Demers" wrote: > > > Hi John, > (we talked on the phone about my motor for sale) > Question: if the isolation transformer separate the ground of the > boat from the shore ground and my electrical outlets are not grounded > on the hull, witch in my case are not, but goes back to the > transformer, than where is the A/C 110v system grounded to? tell me > if I'm mistaking but isn't it grounded on the boat side of the > isolation transformer and then grounded to the hull? > If I am right, considaring the cost and weight of a isolation > transformer, couldn't I install a hull grounded wire to a on/off > switch in or near the A/C panel, one on the boat side of the panel > and one on the shore side of the panel with an amp meter on both, > then I could see if and where a problem like stray current would > accure and could prevent it just by switching the ground to the off > position, could this system work on my BS36....thanks > Marcel Demers > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > wrote: > > Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation > transformer on your > > shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your > boat but will > > seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore provided > ground > > and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but > returned to the > > transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and > electrolosis > > because the hull you are standing on is not part of the electrical > circuit. > > I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, > Ca. > > > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of > some > > > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > > > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and > > > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the > bonding > > > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the > waterline. > > > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these > > > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > > > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was > > > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect > against > > > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at it. > A > > > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > > > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online > and > > > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system > has > > > been developed very well by now. > > > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in a > > > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then > check > > > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > > > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would > then > > > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted of > > > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was > laid > > > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to the > > > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in the > > > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for > aluminum > > > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > > > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived aboard > my > > > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft > and > > > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The > zincs > > > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was f/g > with > > > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a > couple > > > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually > undamaged > > > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the > spares > > > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time > for > > > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal > boat, > > > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs if > for > > > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your > > > anodes > > > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would > spend > > > the > > > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the > > > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > > > fruits > > > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > > > discussion !! > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > > > thing. > > > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the > > > Acme > > > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make > > > some > > > > sense of these claims. > > > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo > > > that's > > > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can > see > > > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and > con's > > > of > > > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I > > > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > > > > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of > sharing > > > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > > > constant > > > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- > > > > intentioned recommendations. > > > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to > use > > > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you > take > > > a > > > > calculated risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > > > > > In contrast: > > > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the > water > > > for > > > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > > > anodes > > > > attached. > > > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline > (mild > > > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of > rudder > > > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once > (built > > > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think > that's > > > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > > > conventional > > > > installation. > > > > > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not > > > been > > > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of > the > > > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting > the > > > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar > metals. > > > > > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy > > > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also > > > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin > with, > > > > just to see if they're needed). > > > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > > > insurance, > > > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > > > doesn't > > > > fit well with me. > > > > > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no > anode > > > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods > (like > > > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose > the > > > zinc > > > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder > pintles > > > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view > of > > > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and > > > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. > Creating > > > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble > than > > > > it's worth. > > > > > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string > > > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode- > out > > > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > > > pipe !! | 5589|5582|2004-09-23 13:48:07|Gerd|Re: fresh water scuppers|Hi Mat - you can convert pratically any hull shape to Origami, and with an exisiting chine-design it's really quite easy. Have a look at my website, there is an extensive explanation of one of several ways to do that. The fact that the chine is above the water does not make a difference, it just does not look so nice. Actually, if you are not too afraid of digging in some books and spending time designing and modelling, you can very well design your own origami hull to similar parameters as Wylo, it not exactly rocket science unless you want to re-invent the wheel ;-) You should be aware though of the fact that if you convert a hardchine to origami, you will loose a small amount of volume for and aft, thus reducing the prismatic slightly. How much depends mostly on how long your darts are, as in the central area of the darts the origami hull will be practically identical to the hard- chine, but fore and aft the conical sections will be "inside" the original, and a bit smaller. Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: ............. > This occurred to me while i was lusting over the flush decks of a > Wylo II, on a website in an earlier post. On that note, has anyone > discussed the suitability of the Wylo II design for origami > construction? The top chine seems to be above the waterline, does > that make it unsuitable?............... | 5590|1761|2004-09-23 14:17:38|spencerj71|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Marcel, I realize you're addressing your question to John, but what you are proposing is potentially leathal, so pardon my interjection. You should never put a switch in the ground wire. This is what protects you from a potential shock if there is a short circuit. If you don't want to use an isolation transformer (because of expense and weight) install a galvanic isolator. If you already have an isolation transformer, keep it as it provides the best protection. If you're interested in reading about the "how's" and "why's", Nigel Calder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Maunal" is a great reference. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Demers" wrote: > > > Hi John, > (we talked on the phone about my motor for sale) > Question: if the isolation transformer separate the ground of the > boat from the shore ground and my electrical outlets are not grounded > on the hull, witch in my case are not, but goes back to the > transformer, than where is the A/C 110v system grounded to? tell me > if I'm mistaking but isn't it grounded on the boat side of the > isolation transformer and then grounded to the hull? > If I am right, considaring the cost and weight of a isolation > transformer, couldn't I install a hull grounded wire to a on/off > switch in or near the A/C panel, one on the boat side of the panel > and one on the shore side of the panel with an amp meter on both, > then I could see if and where a problem like stray current would > accure and could prevent it just by switching the ground to the off > position, could this system work on my BS36....thanks > Marcel Demers > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > wrote: > > Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation > transformer on your > > shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your > boat but will > > seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore provided > ground > > and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but > returned to the > > transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and > electrolosis > > because the hull you are standing on is not part of the electrical > circuit. > > I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, > Ca. > > > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of > some > > > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > > > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and > > > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the > bonding > > > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the > waterline. > > > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these > > > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > > > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was > > > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect > against > > > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at it. > A > > > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > > > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online > and > > > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system > has > > > been developed very well by now. > > > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in a > > > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then > check > > > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > > > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would > then > > > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted of > > > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was > laid > > > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to the > > > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in the > > > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for > aluminum > > > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > > > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived aboard > my > > > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft > and > > > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The > zincs > > > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was f/g > with > > > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a > couple > > > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually > undamaged > > > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the > spares > > > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time > for > > > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal > boat, > > > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs if > for > > > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your > > > anodes > > > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would > spend > > > the > > > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the > > > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > > > fruits > > > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > > > discussion !! > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > > > thing. > > > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the > > > Acme > > > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make > > > some > > > > sense of these claims. > > > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo > > > that's > > > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can > see > > > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and > con's > > > of > > > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I > > > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > > > > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of > sharing > > > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > > > constant > > > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- > > > > intentioned recommendations. > > > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to > use > > > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you > take > > > a > > > > calculated risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > > > > > In contrast: > > > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the > water > > > for > > > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > > > anodes > > > > attached. > > > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline > (mild > > > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of > rudder > > > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once > (built > > > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think > that's > > > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > > > conventional > > > > installation. > > > > > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not > > > been > > > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of > the > > > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting > the > > > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar > metals. > > > > > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy > > > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also > > > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin > with, > > > > just to see if they're needed). > > > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > > > insurance, > > > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > > > doesn't > > > > fit well with me. > > > > > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no > anode > > > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods > (like > > > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose > the > > > zinc > > > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder > pintles > > > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view > of > > > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and > > > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. > Creating > > > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble > than > > > > it's worth. > > > > > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string > > > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode- > out > > > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > > > pipe !! | 5591|5591|2004-09-23 14:37:47|Ronald|a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|Hi all in this great group can a real double-ended Colin archer style be done in origami ?? I need Your Help please Ronald and Baraba| 5592|5591|2004-09-23 14:46:35|ben_azo|Re: a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|Sure it could be done , but why would anyone want to build that kind of boat today ? Nostalgia ? Tell us more about your project please. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald" wrote: > Hi > all in this great group > > can a real double-ended > Colin archer style > be done in origami ?? > > I need Your Help please > > Ronald and Baraba | 5593|5591|2004-09-23 14:46:36|Gerd|Re: a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|hi - same thing, see my message to mat. Basically, if you can do one origami bow, you can do one at each end, no ? ;-) Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald" wrote: > Hi > all in this great group > > can a real double-ended > Colin archer style > be done in origami ?? > > I need Your Help please > > Ronald and Baraba | 5594|5594|2004-09-23 14:56:56|fenixrises|Engine placement?|Hi all, Where to place the engine in the boat? Many of the past posts have dealt with what kind of engine and exaust. But from what I have seen, not "where". So... I am talking principly about boats of less than 40' with an aft cockpit. Boats in the 40'+ range frequently have central cockpits and enough space for a seperate engine room. Typically engines are placed aft, near or under the cockpit. Sometimes the engine is placed amidship. The aft placement leaves more unobstruced space in the accomodation part of the boat. But this location might make access to the engine and shaft log more difficult. An aft location also means the weight is farther aft. Midship placement means better weight distribution and better access. But the penalties are obstruction of the interior. This can to some extent be overcome by the fact that the engine cover can also function as the salon table. Other possible problems are a longer run for the exhaust system. Since it seems that most people advocate a dry exhaust would the longer run be a problem. In the photo files there is a fine example of a midship mounted engine in "My Island". "My Island" is a fin keel boat with the prop shaft coming out the trailing edge of the keel. Certainly this concept provides excellent protection for the prop. But with the disadvantage of not being able to see or service the prop unless one goes into the water or hauls the boat. Possibly going on the "hard" with support legs is another option if sufficient tidal range and a secure location are available. With twin keels this becomes an easier proposition. But the protection offered by the keel is gone. It would be possible with a metal boat to provide a strong support for the shaft and some form of guard for the prop to reduce the risk of fouling the prop. Engine noise is another consideration. In small vessels escaping the noise is almost impossible although with a good installation the effects can be minimized. I like quarter berths at sea. With an aft mounted engine having its heat and noise right next to the sleeping area are not ideal. This is especially true in the tropics. My personal preference would be a midship engine, twin keel. Having built and worked on many boats over the years I like good and easy access to any and all systems installed. I like the idea of centralizing the weight. For the interior layout that I prefer this location does not present an unnecessary intrusion. What are the reasons others who are building have chosen for their engine location? I am sure I have not listed many of the other possible reasons for a preference of aft or midship engine location. So your ideas, thoughts, opinions? Take care, Fred PS Some other thoughts. Pros and cons of using a CVJ in the drive train. Using a PTO(power take off) shaft forward of the engine to run things like big alternators, compressors, etc.| 5595|5591|2004-09-23 15:40:59|Ronald|Re: a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|That is a fantastic page great work good luck Baraba| 5596|5591|2004-09-23 15:46:34|Ronald|Re: a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|nostalgia no modern boat follow the Plastoc lines we here in France now since 14 year all Benetau and look a likes no sailboats at all a bow and aft cut thats all only no displacement please and fast no that's strange to us sailig is a lifestyle sorry we do this since 14 years but looking to build our boat a lot of space for a lot of books can't do it otherway sailing and reading Barbara and Ronald and Julien and Candance| 5597|5557|2004-09-23 16:02:50|knutfg|Re: Foam and fire protection|Ben, I would not be able to tell off the top of my head what expansion to expect from the foaming fire-protection paint systems that are in the market and it is probably variable depending on manufacturer and the product fire rating. An aluminum foil cover on insulation foam will help preventing start of a fire from sparks or radiation heat from some other burning material, but in direct contact with a fire, the heat will penetrate the aluminum very fast and the delay effect will be minimal. Knut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi > > How much does the foam/glue expand? Would the aluminium foil backed > stuff help retard fire? I will try tonight as I have some on the > boat. > > Cheers > > Ben | 5598|5168|2004-09-23 16:48:30|brentswain38|Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW|Ganley designs are wonderfully simple designs , designed by someone who has obviously got his hands dirty building steel boats. The experience shows in the simplicity and practicality of his work, quite a contrast with boats designed by those who have never themselves built a metal boat . It was his "Snowbird " design , back in the early 70's that first began my interest in steel boats. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Interesting expresion, it is exactly what I was thinking when I looked at the Dennis Ganley designs. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Henri Naths > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:44 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW > > > united we stand????? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 21 September, 2004 10:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Failures and Accidents/ Vive la Difference !!!! WOW > > > " Als twee honden vechten om een been > loopt een derde ermee heen " an old Dutch saying wich my > personal Instant Babbelfish Translater converts into : > when two dogs fight over a bone a third dog will run away with it. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5599|5599|2004-09-23 16:58:04|brentswain38|Portable welder|I just hooked up a 100 amp alternator , belt driven off my main engine for welding . It works wonderfully and lets me weld anywhere, anytime. The alternator cost me the same as a 35 amp alternator. I wonder if a 150 amp alternator would have cost the same .At any rate all the parts cost under $50, roughly the cost of renting a portable for a day. This makes it a disposable, bic lighter , type welder. I couldn't believe how simple it was. I hooked up the field contacts to the starting battery directly with a 65 watt lightbulb in the positive line to avoid over powering the field and burning it out. I also put a toggle switch in this line to enable me to switch off the positive to reduce the risk of dammage to the diodes when not welding. Then I hooked the stinger up to the positive post( The ground was connected thru the mount) and started welding .It took minutes to do all the welding projects I've been meaning to do for a couple of years.I used 3/32 stainlwess rods and had to put a 9 inch pulley on the engine side to get enough RPM. I don't know how long it will last, but it already owes me nothing and if something burns out, I'll invest another $35 next time I need to. Brent| 5600|5557|2004-09-23 17:07:35|brentswain38|Re: Foam and fire protection|Jack , on Island Breeze , at the beginning of his circumnavigation, had a major fire stating in the stern. Despite the fire being hot enough to turn most of his electronics into plastic stalactites, the fire refused to burn any foam which had been painted with cheap , household latex paint. He made the mistake of keeping the hatches open while trying to put the fire out. If he had sealed her up, the fire would have gone out quickly when it ran out of oxygen , and the damage would have been far less. My brother, a fire fighter for many decades, said he has seen fires go out in department stores , full of flammable material , due to the oxygen being used up rather quickly. I've seen this happen with other metal boats which caught fire, despite plastic ports, plastic ventilators and wooden hatches. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi > > How much does the foam/glue expand? Would the aluminium foil backed > stuff help retard fire? I will try tonight as I have some on the > boat. > > Cheers > > Ben | 5601|5582|2004-09-23 17:16:00|brentswain38|Re: fresh water scuppers|On my last trip to Tonga and back , from September 2002 to june 2003, I caught all my water off the decks and never took water from shore.I know cruisers who have gone two years without taking shore water aboard.This eliminates the health hazzards of shore water. I put a pipe in at the low point of the decks for water catchement ,with a cork in to stop the sea when it isn't in use. Putting your scupper drip lips half an inch lower than the bottom of the scupper lets a cover with a foam rubber gasket under it seal well against the hull. Using pipes for drains would run the risk of them frezing up in winter. Valves tend to gather crud when closed, something which is far less of a problem with scuppers.This is also why I prefer corks in the catchement pipes, instead of valves. Four inch bulwarks hold only tiny amounts of water when the boat is bouncing around in a rough sea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Hi Folks, > Lurker Matt here. I was daydreaming again today, when i should have > been working, and started wondering if anyone has thought of/tried > having scuppers that lead internally. > My thought was that if designed right an arrangement could be made > that would route water from the decks downhill to drains on the > transom, but when it's raining a valve could re-direct the rainwater > to the fresh water tank. > If the bullwarks were, say, four inches above the deck, they'd catch > a fair amount of rainwater, provided you let a few litres run through > first to wash the seawater off the decks. But perhaps such an > arrangement wouldn't drain the decks of seawater fast enough in a > boisterous sea? > This occurred to me while i was lusting over the flush decks of a > Wylo II, on a website in an earlier post. On that note, has anyone > discussed the suitability of the Wylo II design for origami > construction? The top chine seems to be above the waterline, does > that make it unsuitable? > I've read Brent's argument against flush decks, and very convincing > it was too. But i can't help myself, i just WANT them. > Cheers, > Matt > The white-collar dreamer, who plans to build in mid 2005. | 5602|5594|2004-09-23 17:35:07|brentswain38|Re: Engine placement?|The engine position just under the front end of the cockpit has worked out best for the 36. Having the prop at the aft end of the skeg makes it visible and easily reachable from the dinghy . It also gives a good blast of propwash directly on the rudder , giving good control from a dead stop.The engine position gives total access to the engine if you make all the side panels removeable. It lets you put a vent and fan , blowing engine air out of the accommodation and into the front end of cockpit. It enables you to use direct rod linkages for engine controls, eliminating the weaknesses of more complex controls. It makes for a short exhuast pipe, and skeg cooling pipes. With the fin keelers, some people have put their engines in the keel with the prop at the back end of the keel. This made for a much quieter engine, but the exhuast was long and control from a dead stop was minimal as the effect of the propwash on the rudder was far less. It was impossible to access the prop without drying out or diving.Engine controls also become far more complex.Haviong the weight further foreward was an advantage, but tankage in the single keel was greatly reduced.Access under the engine and sterntube was also greatly reduced. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > > Where to place the engine in the boat? > Many of the past posts have dealt with what kind of engine and > exaust. But from what I have seen, not "where". So... > > I am talking principly about boats of less than 40' with an aft > cockpit. Boats in the 40'+ range frequently have central cockpits > and enough space for a seperate engine room. > > Typically engines are placed aft, near or under the cockpit. > Sometimes the engine is placed amidship. > The aft placement leaves more unobstruced space in the accomodation > part of the boat. But this location might make access to the > engine and shaft log more difficult. An aft location also means the > weight is farther aft. > > Midship placement means better weight distribution and better access. > But the penalties are obstruction of the interior. This can to some > extent be overcome by the fact that the engine cover can also > function as the salon table. Other possible problems are a longer run > for the exhaust system. Since it seems that most people advocate a > dry exhaust would the longer run be a problem. > > In the photo files there is a fine example of a midship mounted > engine in "My Island". "My Island" is a fin keel boat with the prop > shaft coming out the trailing edge of the keel. Certainly this > concept provides excellent protection for the prop. But with the > disadvantage of not being able to see or service the prop unless one > goes into the water or hauls the boat. Possibly going on the "hard" > with support legs is another option if sufficient tidal range and a > secure location are available. With twin keels this becomes an easier > proposition. But the protection offered by the keel is gone. It would > be possible with a metal boat to provide a strong support for the > shaft and some form of guard for the prop to reduce the risk of > fouling the prop. > > Engine noise is another consideration. In small vessels escaping the > noise is almost impossible although with a good installation the > effects can be minimized. > I like quarter berths at sea. With an aft mounted engine having its > heat and noise right next to the sleeping area are not ideal. > This is especially true in the tropics. > > My personal preference would be a midship engine, twin keel. > Having built and worked on many boats over the years I like good and > easy access to any and all systems installed. I like the idea of > centralizing the weight. For the interior layout that I prefer this > location does not present an unnecessary intrusion. > > What are the reasons others who are building have chosen for their > engine location? I am sure I have not listed many of the other > possible > reasons for a preference of aft or midship engine location. > > So your ideas, thoughts, opinions? > > Take care, > Fred > > PS Some other thoughts. > Pros and cons of using a CVJ in the drive train. > Using a PTO(power take off) shaft forward of the engine to run things > like big alternators, compressors, etc. | 5603|5591|2004-09-23 17:37:39|brentswain38|Re: a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|One 36 footer was done as a double ender. No problem altho double enders tend to pich and hobby horse a lot more , and there is far less deck space and interior space in the stern. Any hard chine hull can be done in origami Volume which is lost at the ex-chines is added between them , in conic ends. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > hi - same thing, see my message to mat. Basically, if you can do one > origami bow, you can do one at each end, no ? ;-) > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald" wrote: > > Hi > > all in this great group > > > > can a real double-ended > > Colin archer style > > be done in origami ?? > > > > I need Your Help please > > > > Ronald and Baraba | 5604|5604|2004-09-23 18:19:06|ben_azo|sweet sailingboat business , low investment , what a return !!!|http://www.outthere.co.za/97/1211/feat3nov.html| 5605|5605|2004-09-23 18:31:25|fenixrises|36 footer called "Babera Allan " for sale|In message # 4907 From: "brentswain38" Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 6:09 pm Subject: Re: For Sale? There is a 36 footer called "Babera Allan " for sale in Genoa Bay, BC It doesn't have a wheelhouse , but that can be cured.It's plain Jane and well kept. Brent In message # 4936 there was an e-mail address but it got chopped off. Brent is this boat still for sale? Is there contact information available for the current owner? Is the boat a twin keel? Take care, Fred| 5606|5582|2004-09-23 23:13:34|normanbywaite|Re: fresh water scuppers|You guys are so great and generous with your responses, what a community. To Old Ben, thanks for the reply, I've enjoyed your input to this group. My plans? I've wanted a steel sailboat to sail to far flung places ever since I read Bernard Moitessier's book `The Long Way', but always felt it was probably beyond my abilities to build in steel. Until I read Brent's book, which helped me feel that it was doable for me. Despite my self-deprecating `white collar dreamer' tag, I do know my way around a tool box: spent some years as an electrical technician, and made wooden furniture to sell at local craft markets. I joined the white collar brigade only recently, after realizing that I needed to do more than merely eek out a living if I wanted to go blue water cruising. Seems odd though; I became an accountant to go sailing… So yes, I plan to do it all myself. I'm at the stage where I'm trying to settle on a design for frameless building. I have my eye on a couple of cheap building sites and hope to put tool to steel by May 2005. To Gerd, thanks, I have trawled all through your website and was mighty impressed, though my eyelids started drooping from time to time with the technicalities of the software. I have made a couple of cardboard models (which my daughter now uses to float tea candles upon in the bath) and reckon I could perhaps create what I want myself – but I'd have much greater confidence in `store-bought' plans. But maybe I just need to research more. Can you tell give me some titles of books to get, or should I just follow the links on your website to check out the software? To Brent, thanks, although I'm not sure what scupper drip lips are, self explanatory I suppose, but are they on the outside of the hull? Are they the bits that save you from having a streaky hull by having the runoff drip away from the hull? I best re-read your book, only been through it twice… Cheers, Matt The Determined Day-Dreamer from Oz| 5607|1761|2004-09-24 00:03:22|John Jones|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Kewl I had hoped this would stimulate an active discussion on this topic and I might learn a bit more of why this works. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Marcel, > > I realize you're addressing your question to John, but what you are > proposing is potentially leathal, so pardon my interjection. You > should never put a switch in the ground wire. This is what protects > you from a potential shock if there is a short circuit. If you don't > want to use an isolation transformer (because of expense and weight) > install a galvanic isolator. If you already have an isolation > transformer, keep it as it provides the best protection. If you're > interested in reading about the "how's" and "why's", Nigel > Calder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Maunal" is a great > reference. > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Demers" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > (we talked on the phone about my motor for sale) > > Question: if the isolation transformer separate the ground of > the > > boat from the shore ground and my electrical outlets are not > grounded > > on the hull, witch in my case are not, but goes back to the > > transformer, than where is the A/C 110v system grounded to? tell me > > if I'm mistaking but isn't it grounded on the boat side of the > > isolation transformer and then grounded to the hull? > > If I am right, considaring the cost and weight of a isolation > > transformer, couldn't I install a hull grounded wire to a on/off > > switch in or near the A/C panel, one on the boat side of the panel > > and one on the shore side of the panel with an amp meter on both, > > then I could see if and where a problem like stray current would > > accure and could prevent it just by switching the ground to the off > > position, could this system work on my BS36....thanks > > Marcel Demers > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > > wrote: > > > Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation > > transformer on your > > > shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your > > boat but will > > > seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore > provided > > ground > > > and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but > > returned to the > > > transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and > > electrolosis > > > because the hull you are standing on is not part of the > electrical > > circuit. > > > I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport > Beach, > > Ca. > > > > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of > > some > > > > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > > > > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass > and > > > > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the > > bonding > > > > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the > > waterline. > > > > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for > these > > > > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > > > > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what > was > > > > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect > > against > > > > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at > it. > > A > > > > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > > > > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online > > and > > > > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system > > has > > > > been developed very well by now. > > > > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in > a > > > > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then > > check > > > > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > > > > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would > > then > > > > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted > of > > > > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was > > laid > > > > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to > the > > > > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in > the > > > > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for > > aluminum > > > > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > > > > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived > aboard > > my > > > > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft > > and > > > > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The > > zincs > > > > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was > f/g > > with > > > > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a > > couple > > > > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually > > undamaged > > > > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the > > spares > > > > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time > > for > > > > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal > > boat, > > > > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs > if > > for > > > > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. > Your > > > > anodes > > > > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would > > spend > > > > the > > > > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to > the > > > > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > > > > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > > > > fruits > > > > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > > > > discussion !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > > > > thing. > > > > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" > or "the > > > > Acme > > > > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to > make > > > > some > > > > > sense of these claims. > > > > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being > goo > > > > that's > > > > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > > > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can > > see > > > > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > > > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and > > con's > > > > of > > > > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, > I > > > > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. > > > > > > > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of > > sharing > > > > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > > > > constant > > > > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on > well- > > > > > intentioned recommendations. > > > > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products > to > > use > > > > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you > > take > > > > a > > > > > calculated risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > > > > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > > > > > > > In contrast: > > > > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the > > water > > > > for > > > > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > > > > anodes > > > > > attached. > > > > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline > > (mild > > > > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of > > rudder > > > > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once > > (built > > > > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think > > that's > > > > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > > > > conventional > > > > > installation. > > > > > > > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's > not > > > > been > > > > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > > > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part > of > > the > > > > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > > > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting > > the > > > > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar > > metals. > > > > > > > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' > strategy > > > > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to > also > > > > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin > > with, > > > > > just to see if they're needed). > > > > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > > > > insurance, > > > > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > > > > doesn't > > > > > fit well with me. > > > > > > > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no > > anode > > > > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods > > (like > > > > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose > > the > > > > zinc > > > > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder > > pintles > > > > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in > view > > of > > > > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe > and > > > > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. > > Creating > > > > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more > trouble > > than > > > > > it's worth. > > > > > > > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with > string > > > > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the > pond ... > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > > > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode- > > out > > > > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > > > > pipe !! | 5608|5557|2004-09-24 00:34:56|John Jones|Re: Foam and fire protection|During Canadian Coast Guard "Marine Emergency Training" IE "MED" The fire fighting training portion includes fogging a room with a wide spray of water that boils and displaces the oxegen in the room and thuss removes two of the nessessary (?) elements of (fire) Heat & oxegen.... and the fire goes out TOO KEWL & cool too! Close up the boat "seal out the air" & cool the outside of the hull & deck where the fire is and you might be able to sail it home ... although burned out. The trick is to stay alive. Go for it, No fire on board will be hot enough to cause a steel boat to come apart. Keep the sails AWAY from the fire. good luck. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Jack , on Island Breeze , at the beginning of his circumnavigation, > had a major fire stating in the stern. Despite the fire being hot > enough to turn most of his electronics into plastic stalactites, the > fire refused to burn any foam which had been painted with cheap , > household latex paint. > He made the mistake of keeping the hatches open while trying to put > the fire out. If he had sealed her up, the fire would have gone out > quickly when it ran out of oxygen , and the damage would have been > far less. > My brother, a fire fighter for many decades, said he has seen fires > go out in department stores , full of flammable material , due to the > oxygen being used up rather quickly. > I've seen this happen with other metal boats which caught fire, > despite plastic ports, plastic ventilators and wooden hatches. > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > Hi > > > > How much does the foam/glue expand? Would the aluminium foil backed > > stuff help retard fire? I will try tonight as I have some on the > > boat. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben | 5609|1761|2004-09-24 10:56:48|Marcel Demers|Re: Electrolysis & isolation|Tanks Spencer for the info will go for the Galvanic Isolator, took a look at Nigel's book , in the grounding chapter he says that the AC ground wire (green) witch is conected to the hull should be also conected to the DC return (negetif) wire, won't that allow my hull to become the negatif side of my DC intallation????I am just wandering if they are not again speaking of a fiberglass hull because of the bounding reference he is illustrating in the book, up to now all the books,articles and info I have seen on the subjet does not specialy focus on steel hull installation.....is there any?? Marcel Demers -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Kewl > I had hoped this would stimulate an active discussion on this topic and I > might learn a bit more of why this works. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > Marcel, > > > > I realize you're addressing your question to John, but what you are > > proposing is potentially leathal, so pardon my interjection. You > > should never put a switch in the ground wire. This is what protects > > you from a potential shock if there is a short circuit. If you don't > > want to use an isolation transformer (because of expense and weight) > > install a galvanic isolator. If you already have an isolation > > transformer, keep it as it provides the best protection. If you're > > interested in reading about the "how's" and "why's", Nigel > > Calder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Maunal" is a great > > reference. > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Demers" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > (we talked on the phone about my motor for sale) > > > Question: if the isolation transformer separate the ground of > > the > > > boat from the shore ground and my electrical outlets are not > > grounded > > > on the hull, witch in my case are not, but goes back to the > > > transformer, than where is the A/C 110v system grounded to? tell me > > > if I'm mistaking but isn't it grounded on the boat side of the > > > isolation transformer and then grounded to the hull? > > > If I am right, considaring the cost and weight of a isolation > > > transformer, couldn't I install a hull grounded wire to a on/off > > > switch in or near the A/C panel, one on the boat side of the panel > > > and one on the shore side of the panel with an amp meter on both, > > > then I could see if and where a problem like stray current would > > > accure and could prevent it just by switching the ground to the off > > > position, could this system work on my BS36....thanks > > > Marcel Demers > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" > > > wrote: > > > > Another solution to the problem is to install an isolation > > > transformer on your > > > > shore power connection. This will not replace the zincs on your > > > boat but will > > > > seperate the grounding system on your boat from the shore > > provided > > > ground > > > > and provided all onboard outlets are not bonded to the hull but > > > returned to the > > > > transformer, it will lessen the likelyhood of electric shock and > > > electrolosis > > > > because the hull you are standing on is not part of the > > electrical > > > circuit. > > > > I hope you can make sense of all this jibberish. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport > > Beach, > > > Ca. > > > > > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of > > > some > > > > > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > > > > > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass > > and > > > > > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the > > > bonding > > > > > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the > > > waterline. > > > > > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for > > these > > > > > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > > > > > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what > > was > > > > > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect > > > against > > > > > electroysis. Some people swore by the product, some swore at > > it. > > > A > > > > > couple of boats with this system sank at their docks because > > > > > electolysis completely ate away through hulls. I checked online > > > and > > > > > evidently Bartell is still in business. So perhaps their system > > > has > > > > > been developed very well by now. > > > > > Getting back to the consultant. He said the best thing to do in > > a > > > > > harbor like Newport was to put the boat in its slip and then > > > check > > > > > the electrical potential between the boat and water at numerous > > > > > places. He used a sensitive volt and milliamp meter. He would > > > then > > > > > design an anti-electrolysis grid for the boat. This consisted > > of > > > > > heavy bare copper wire with large zincz attached. This grid was > > > laid > > > > > in the water on the bottom under the boat. It was attached to > > the > > > > > boat with large jumper cable type clamps when the boat was in > > the > > > > > slip. Evidentially this system was very good especially for > > > aluminum > > > > > boats in a "hot" location like Newport. > > > > > My personal experience was somewhat similar. When I lived > > aboard > > > my > > > > > boat in Long Beach I had a simple zinc collar on the prop shaft > > > and > > > > > an additional clam shell zinc attached to the shaft strut. The > > > zincs > > > > > were not very big and lasted for about 6 months. My boat was > > f/g > > > with > > > > > no shore power and a very simple 12v system. When I went on a > > > couple > > > > > year cruise in the Pacific I found the zincs were vertually > > > undamaged > > > > > after 18 months. I changed them in Samoa because I brought the > > > spares > > > > > with me. Within 6 months of returning to Long Beach it was time > > > for > > > > > new zincs. I suspect in any place where you might keep a metal > > > boat, > > > > > especially if there is shore power you would want to use zincs > > if > > > for > > > > > no other reason than to protect your boat from outside sources. > > > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. > > Your > > > > > anodes > > > > > > are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would > > > spend > > > > > the > > > > > > time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to > > the > > > > > > electrical system in your boat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the > > > > > fruits > > > > > > of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while > > > > > discussion !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint > > > > > thing. > > > > > > I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" > > or "the > > > > > Acme > > > > > > paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to > > make > > > > > some > > > > > > sense of these claims. > > > > > > I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being > > goo > > > > > that's > > > > > > applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - > > > > > > protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can > > > see > > > > > > that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic > > > > > > understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and > > > con's > > > > > of > > > > > > using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, > > I > > > > > > wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill- advised. > > > > > > > > > > > > My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of > > > sharing > > > > > > information with others who may be similarly plagued with a > > > > > constant > > > > > > need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on > > well- > > > > > > intentioned recommendations. > > > > > > Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products > > to > > > use > > > > > > just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you > > > take > > > > > a > > > > > > calculated risk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok - electrolysis. > > > > > > > > > > > > 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? > > > > > > > > > > > > In contrast: > > > > > > Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the > > > water > > > > > for > > > > > > over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any > > > > > anodes > > > > > > attached. > > > > > > His construction employs similar metals below the waterline > > > (mild > > > > > > steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of > > > rudder > > > > > > pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once > > > (built > > > > > > up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think > > > that's > > > > > > much less maintenance than one would expect with a more > > > > > conventional > > > > > > installation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's > > not > > > > > been > > > > > > fitting anodes for over 30 years ! > > > > > > He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part > > of > > > the > > > > > > electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by > > > > > > electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting > > > the > > > > > > propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar > > > metals. > > > > > > > > > > > > My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' > > strategy > > > > > > together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to > > also > > > > > > dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin > > > with, > > > > > > just to see if they're needed). > > > > > > I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' > > > > > insurance, > > > > > > but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > fit well with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no > > > anode > > > > > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods > > > (like > > > > > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose > > > the > > > > > zinc > > > > > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder > > > pintles > > > > > > and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in > > view > > > of > > > > > > the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe > > and > > > > > > anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. > > > Creating > > > > > > such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more > > trouble > > > than > > > > > > it's worth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with > > string > > > > > > , which seems to be favoured on your side of the > > pond ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. > > > > > > BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode- > > > out > > > > > > right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper > > > > > pipe !! | 5610|5605|2004-09-24 16:53:28|brentswain38|Re: 36 footer called "Babera Allan " for sale|The boat is named Barbera Allan. It is a single keeler with no wheelhouse. It's in Genoa Bay, just SE of Duncan BC and a mile or so south of Birdseye Cove in Maple Bay. I don't have the email address any more, Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > In message # 4907 > > From: "brentswain38" > Date: Sun Aug 1, 2004 6:09 pm > Subject: Re: For Sale? > > There is a 36 footer called "Babera Allan " for sale in Genoa Bay, BC > It doesn't have a wheelhouse , but that can be cured.It's plain > Jane and well kept. > Brent > > In message # 4936 there was an e-mail address but it got chopped off. > > Brent is this boat still for sale? > Is there contact information available for the current owner? > Is the boat a twin keel? > > Take care, > Fred | 5611|5582|2004-09-24 16:59:40|brentswain38|Re: fresh water scuppers|Drip lips are exactly what you describe. The book " Blue Water" by Bob Grifiths is a good read . Cruising Under Sail and Voyaging Under Sail by Eric Hiscock and Ocean Cruising Survey by Jimmy Cornell are worth reading. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > > You guys are so great and generous with your responses, what a > community. > > To Old Ben, thanks for the reply, I've enjoyed your input to this > group. My plans? I've wanted a steel sailboat to sail to far flung > places ever since I read Bernard Moitessier's book `The Long Way', > but always felt it was probably beyond my abilities to build in > steel. Until I read Brent's book, which helped me feel that it was > doable for me. > Despite my self-deprecating `white collar dreamer' tag, I do know my > way around a tool box: spent some years as an electrical technician, > and made wooden furniture to sell at local craft markets. I joined > the white collar brigade only recently, after realizing that I needed > to do more than merely eek out a living if I wanted to go blue water > cruising. Seems odd though; I became an accountant to go sailing… > So yes, I plan to do it all myself. > I'm at the stage where I'm trying to settle on a design for frameless > building. I have my eye on a couple of cheap building sites and hope > to put tool to steel by May 2005. > > To Gerd, thanks, I have trawled all through your website and was > mighty impressed, though my eyelids started drooping from time to > time with the technicalities of the software. I have made a couple of > cardboard models (which my daughter now uses to float tea candles > upon in the bath) and reckon I could perhaps create what I want > myself – but I'd have much greater confidence in `store-bought' > plans. But maybe I just need to research more. Can you tell give me > some titles of books to get, or should I just follow the links on > your website to check out the software? > > To Brent, thanks, although I'm not sure what scupper drip lips are, > self explanatory I suppose, but are they on the outside of the hull? > Are they the bits that save you from having a streaky hull by having > the runoff drip away from the hull? I best re-read your book, only > been through it twice… > > Cheers, > Matt > The Determined Day-Dreamer from Oz | 5612|5599|2004-09-24 18:13:08|sae140|Re: Portable welder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I just hooked up a 100 amp alternator , belt driven off my main > engine for welding . Hi Brent useful posts about using alternators as welders. I've never tried using a lamp in series with the rotor winding, nor have I tested an alternator-welder for a whole day as you've done .... So, a couple of questions. Have you measured the open circuit voltage on the stinger leads when using your technique ? Was there any evidence of over-heating and/or belt slippage when working the device hard ? These are problems reported by others when using the bigger alternators. They should be so lucky - I've never even *seen* a 140A alternator let alone having played with one. One thing continues to puzzle me about this technique - most of us have been brought up to believe that an alternator must *never* be disconnected whilst the engine is running - I guess this is due to back-emf generated by the windings which can take the diodes out. Yet with an alternator-welder, connection/ disconnection is happening all the time - and under heavy loads too. Maybe it's time for the experts to re-write the manual ? Colin| 5613|5582|2004-09-24 18:19:14|sae140|Re: fresh water scuppers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi Matt, the Nick Skeates Wylo II is presented with some keel > and rigoptions , and 32' - 33' is an ideal allrounder size boat. > Personaly I see no reason why she could not be redesigned > for building in what you call " Origami " Hi guys As anyone conversant with the Wylo design knows, the study-plan sections have not been drawn in the conventional manner to represent regular spacing, but instead represent the actual construction frames which are left in place in the hull to aid fitting-out. Because of this ambiguity regarding spacing, I made a 1/10 model of the Wylo hull some time ago, and adjusted the fore-and-aft position of the sections using thin battens to check for fairness. When these positions were optimised, and having in-filled with plaster, I was then able to round-off the extremities of the hard chines so that sections of this scale hull became roughly midway between hard and round. This was done in order to keep the new hull's volume as near as possible to the original, and thus hopefully also the shape. Several Origami 'skins' were then taken off the scale hull using the classic orange-peel method, with slight changes being made to the position and length of the chine slit, and a couple of paper-card models were then made up. The reason I'm posting this info again now, is that as far as I could tell, with the exception of the stem being more curved in profile (a necessary consequence of the method ?), the Origami Wylo hull form looked practically identical to that of the Swain hull form (up to deck level). Certainly, I couldn't see enough difference by eye to warrant working-up a new design with all that that entails. Hope this is of passing interest, and that someone is motivated enough to replicate this procedure - 'cause it's really great fun ! Colin| 5614|1761|2004-09-24 18:40:02|sae140|Re: Electrolysis|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > Some years ago I had a conversation with a man in Newport Beach, Ca. > He was an electrolysis consultant and an electrical engineer of some > type. The harbor in Newport is very "hot". At that time I was > building large sport fishing boats. The boats were fiberglass and > employed the usual bond everything together and then tie the bonding > system to a large zinc mounted on the transom below the waterline. > The zinc block was about 10 pounds. It was not uncommon for these > zincs to be reduced by 50% in as little as 3 months. > There is a company by the name of Bartell that developed what was > supposed to be an automatic electronic equalizer to protect against > electroysis. I've never heard of anything so crazy (!!) If the harbour is so "hot", then surely the answer is for the boat-owners to get together to exert pressure on the authorities to cure the problem at source, rather than to come up with such electronic gizmos, or collectively keep dissolving hundredweights of zinc into the water every year ? I can't believe all that zinc can be good for the sea- life. However, if you really must have gizmos:- rather than employ sacrifical zincs, the Forth Bridge in Scotland has it's underwater steel structures kept at an artificially small reversed voltage in order to prevent the unpainted metal from corroding. I see no reason why similar protection couldn't be employed on ships/ steel yachts. Colin| 5615|1761|2004-09-24 19:43:00|fenixrises|Re: Electrolysis|Hi Colin, Curing the problem at the source would require a complete sanitization of the harbor. Newport harbor was (mis)used extensively during WWII. The bottom is foul with remants of decomposing detrius remaining from that era. Add to this the fact that the west side of the harbor is basically a long sand bar covered with houses from the early 1900's to present day construction. Many of the older houses have antiquated house wiring systems that leak electricity into the ground through the grounding electrodes(ground rod). Of course the ground is only a few feet above sea level so is well saturated with saltwater. I am sure that the problem could be remediated by dredging the harbor down to clean sand and eliminating all housing on the penisula and all buildings on the mainland east of the harbor. The fact that the an average house lot(very small) on the penisula is worth $1,000,000+ USD and the commercial property on the mainland side worth even more I do not think that the city or the now very bankrupt state of California will ever do something of that nature. The electronic gizmos that Bartell manufacture are supposed to do exactly what you recommend. They sense and reverse the electrical currents that cause the electrolysis on boats. Take care, Fred PS At the time I was there it was easy to drop one probe from a volt meter into the water and attach the other end to a shoreside electrical ground and read 3 ~ 4 volts DC. > I've never heard of anything so crazy (!!) If the harbour is > so "hot", then surely the answer is for the boat-owners to get > together to exert pressure on the authorities to cure the problem at > source, rather than to come up with such electronic gizmos, or > collectively keep dissolving hundredweights of zinc into the water > every year ? I can't believe all that zinc can be good for the sea- > life. > > However, if you really must have gizmos:- rather than employ > sacrifical zincs, the Forth Bridge in Scotland has it's underwater > steel structures kept at an artificially small reversed voltage in > order to prevent the unpainted metal from corroding. I see no reason > why similar protection couldn't be employed on ships/ steel yachts. > > Colin | 5616|5605|2004-09-24 20:23:18|fenixrises|Re: 36 footer called "Babera Allan " for sale|Thanks Brent, The owner sent me an e-mail. He directed me to his brokerage listing for the boat. It looks like a very well finished yacht with a good equipment inventory. It is a fin keel boat. If I purchase or build one of your boats it will be a twin keel. Right now I am debating, buy or build. The used boat market is very soft here on the US east coast. A couple of weeks ago I looked at a Colvin built 5 year old Gazelle. The asking price was only $47,000 USD. For its type that's a hell of deal but more boat than I want to handle or maintain. There's a 43' Robert's available for $20,000 USD but I do not know its condition. Good price(possibly) but too big for me. And of course there are many suitable f/g boats available. But I like steel, because by and large it doesn't break! Like you I have a fair amount of experience both sailing and building boats. In the past I worked on f/g boats. I took a good basic welding class about 30 yrs ago and kept my hand in although I would need to practice a bit to get up to speed and quality. Since I have cruised offshore and sailed a lot of different types of boats I have pretty clear ideas about what I want. Since I took a two year cruise at one point my sense of urgency is maybe not as strong as some. I also realize that building a 35ish foot boat is no minor undertaking even though the origami method cuts down on part of the building time requirements. If I build my experience will be a valuable asset and I'll get to make it the way I want. If I buy I could be in the south Pacific in the spring. Or I could be in B.C. building and maybe I'll be asking for your assistance in pulling together a 36'. Take care, Fred "brentswain38" wrote: > The boat is named Barbera Allan. It is a single keeler with no > wheelhouse. It's in Genoa Bay, just SE of Duncan BC and a mile or so > south of Birdseye Cove in Maple Bay. I don't have the email address > any more, > Brent > | 5617|5617|2004-09-24 20:42:01|fenixrises|Metalizing Steel|Hi all, Been reading previous posts. One idea put forth was doing a zinc wash? Essentially using a large propane torch and soldering(?) the fluxed steel surface with zinc. I do not know offhand the cost of zinc so do not know if this is a worthwhile or practical idea. The question I have is could this be done with lead as well? Lead is just below steel galvanically and tin, frequently found in lead as a harding agent, is well below steel. Might this be easier because of lower melting point and/or better adhesion? Take care, Fred| 5618|5618|2004-09-24 22:04:55|fenixrises|Cutting steel|Hi all, I cut this paragraph from an earlier post. The reason, it got me thinking about something that seems very obvious. In the ongoing debate about alloy vs. steel, pros and cons abound for each material. I am sure each material is good for its designed application. However this simple statement stuck me in an interesting way. Here it is. "Cutting aluminum: Cutting aluminum with a torch is just silly. Let me get this straigt, you'd rather use an acetylene set and do lots of grinding than use a circular saw and a planer, or just a band saw? Aluminum is much easier to cut than steel. If you want to cut it with a torch, the correct tool is a plasma arc. As for the "shrapnel", wear a shirt and a face shield and buy a shop vac." Somehow this one sentence "Aluminum is much easier to cut than steel." speaks volumns...think about it. Anyway...the cutting steel part of the post. While cutting alloy is far easier than steel, cutting steel is not as difficult as you think. 8 or so years ago my boss bought a small battery powered circular saw made by Panasonic. Both the speed of the blade's rotation and the carbide tipped blade itself are specifically designed to cut steel. With a new blade and a fully charged battery this saw could cut 2" schd 40 pipe like butter and not just one cut. The blades would last us for months, depending of course on the total amount of cutting. This saw was such a boon to us(electricians), that he soon bought another slightly larger one also by Panasonic. The saw and blades are not cheap but the speed of cutting is so much faster that the time saved rapidly paid for them. My hacksaw got used so little that the blade was covered in rust. Since that time blades of similar design are manufactured for larger 120v cut off type saws. I never priced one so do no what its cost might be. The larger Panasonic saw would probably require 6? blades to cut the steel for a 36' boat.(I'm guessing here) The blades for the Panasonic saw are about $45 USD, expensive. Since for now, as far as I know, they are proprietary and only available from Panasonic I do not know if this is an economically viable way to cut steel. But compared to gas or plasma cutting with the attending heat distortion and necessary(?) grinding of plates for good fits it may be very worthwhile. Perhaps generic blades of this type are or may become available for "Skilsaws". That would make life a lot easier for steelies. Take care, Fred| 5619|5618|2004-09-25 00:15:56|Henri Naths|Re: Cutting steel|Hi Fred Your post was particularly interesting to me because for years I thought along those lines, ever since I worked with a German millwright. He couldn't get over the fact that in North America we cut every thing with abrasive cut off saws. He told me for several decades in Germany they've been using carbide blade saws . Princess Auto here was selling a similar cutoff saw. A 14 inch blade would cut faster and more accurate than it's abrasive equivalent and still come out cheaper per cut. That blade was $200.00 The saw was about the same price as a Makita. They subsequent discontinued the model because of lack of interest/sales. Henri ps the nice thing about plasma arc is that it does not distort the steel. The plasma is so hot makes such a fine fast, cut the steel is literally vaporized before it has a chance to heat up. ----- Original Message ----- From: fenixrises To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 24 September, 2004 8:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cutting steel Hi all, I cut this paragraph from an earlier post. The reason, it got me thinking about something that seems very obvious. In the ongoing debate about alloy vs. steel, pros and cons abound for each material. I am sure each material is good for its designed application. However this simple statement stuck me in an interesting way. Here it is. "Cutting aluminum: Cutting aluminum with a torch is just silly. Let me get this straigt, you'd rather use an acetylene set and do lots of grinding than use a circular saw and a planer, or just a band saw? Aluminum is much easier to cut than steel. If you want to cut it with a torch, the correct tool is a plasma arc. As for the "shrapnel", wear a shirt and a face shield and buy a shop vac." Somehow this one sentence "Aluminum is much easier to cut than steel." speaks volumns...think about it. Anyway...the cutting steel part of the post. While cutting alloy is far easier than steel, cutting steel is not as difficult as you think. 8 or so years ago my boss bought a small battery powered circular saw made by Panasonic. Both the speed of the blade's rotation and the carbide tipped blade itself are specifically designed to cut steel. With a new blade and a fully charged battery this saw could cut 2" schd 40 pipe like butter and not just one cut. The blades would last us for months, depending of course on the total amount of cutting. This saw was such a boon to us(electricians), that he soon bought another slightly larger one also by Panasonic. The saw and blades are not cheap but the speed of cutting is so much faster that the time saved rapidly paid for them. My hacksaw got used so little that the blade was covered in rust. Since that time blades of similar design are manufactured for larger 120v cut off type saws. I never priced one so do no what its cost might be. The larger Panasonic saw would probably require 6? blades to cut the steel for a 36' boat.(I'm guessing here) The blades for the Panasonic saw are about $45 USD, expensive. Since for now, as far as I know, they are proprietary and only available from Panasonic I do not know if this is an economically viable way to cut steel. But compared to gas or plasma cutting with the attending heat distortion and necessary(?) grinding of plates for good fits it may be very worthwhile. Perhaps generic blades of this type are or may become available for "Skilsaws". That would make life a lot easier for steelies. Take care, Fred To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5620|5618|2004-09-25 07:29:25|fenixrises|Re: Cutting steel|Hi all, The joys of the internet. Here's a link for a steel cutting circular saw. Saw is $300 USD, blades $40 USD http://www.medfordtools.com/evolution/index.html Take care, Fred| 5621|5621|2004-09-25 13:53:52|fenixrises|Compund curves question|Hi all, I put together the simple origami model from the files section today. My first cardboard boat. ;) While doing this I was thinking about the technique and the various things different people have done to simplify the design process. Computers and programs. I am a fan and have used each quite a bit. But not in this application. However I wonder if something very subtle is being missed. Greg from OrigamiMagic says that the program extension that he has developed enables him to produce a perfectly fair set of drawings and/or patterns for origami hulls. I applaud his efforts and am not questioning what he has accomplished. As I understand what he has written it means that a full size plate can pulled into a hull without the slight unfairness near the knuckle at the end of the chine(s). Does this precise fairing also eliminate the compounding of the fore and aft sections of the hull? If it does, is this a good thing? From an aesthetic and structural point of view the compounding is beneficial. Gerd, Gary and some others have worked with differnt programs trying to develop a similar process. Gary has said that he always runs into one problem. The forward and aft parts of the hull refuse to develop properly in a design like Brent's because there is a forced compounding in the surface. So does the plate naturally develop a slight compounding? Is it because of the resistence of the plate and longitudinal combination to being forced into shape? Or is the compounding a result of a slight unfairness at the end of the chine? If the plate has compound curves regardless of design, then the ability to use CAD to precisely design the interior would not be possible at present. If the compounding is only the result of slight unfairness of the chine and would not happen in a perfectly fair design perhaps the slight unfairness of the end of the chine is worthwhile because of the aesthetics of the more visible topsides. So what do you guys out there with your thinking caps on say? Take care, Fred| 5622|5621|2004-09-25 15:07:05|Gerd|Re: Compund curves question|Hi Fred - good to see somebody else fiddling around with the last questions of the univers ;-) I have only very limited experience and can only give you some pointers and observations from my own design and building.. - CAD I do not consider my CAD work as giving the perfect developable model, but rather as a CAD approach to reach a flat outline that then will be refined during the modelling process. The final shape comes then from the paper model back to cad - the final correction being very small - Knuckles and the spreading of tension into the compoud curves. lots of talk about that already. If I understand you right you seem to have come to a similar observation as mine: no compound curve without tension, and tension also creates knuckels. Hope I got you right there. I think this depends of a number of things: -- The compound curve is caused by the tension in the transition from chines to round section as well as by pinching the hull-halves together along the centerline. The shape of this joint is also important, there seems to be more compound curve forward than aft where the lines flow much straighter to the transom. --The more chines, the smaller the knuckles. This is because then the angle of the chine where it goes into the conical section is more open and closer to a rounded section it flows into. --The longer the chined section, the smaller the knuckle and also the less you will have compound curve. Brents boats - from what I can see on the pics - seem to have a lot of compound curve, with a single short dart but also a more pronounced knuckle than yago. -- the shorter the dart the bigger the area that would be forced to a compund curve. There are some numbers for that somwhere, don't remeber where I read it, maybe Skenes, but there is a rule somwhat like so may millimeters compound curve for a cross area of xx before you need to permanently deform your sheet-metal. maybe somebody here has it handy. I other words, the possible compond curve is relativly always the same with regard to the area but would be much more visible and appear rounder on a bigger area due tu shorter darts. --The shorter the dart, the smaller your CP gets due to loss of volume fore and aft. Brent just wrote that this is compensated with the compound curve that would fill in added volume that is lost with the volume that would have been in the chines, but from my tests and calculations I can not really confirm that, the origami ends are clearly INSIDE of the hard-chine version of the same hull. I think Greg has also pointed that out, you should ask him. -- actually, and on the same line, because a smaller part of your tension will spread towards the chined section, and round of the panels between the chines, there is actually MORE volume in the central part than with a hard-chine version. You could stop that by forcing the plated with teh structure but that would eb a pity and also increase the knuckles. -- just to point a small detail out: the shorter the dart, the smaller the wetted area, as a hard-chine-section will have a higher wetted area than a round section. On the other hand, a longer dart in theory would give a longer chine and thus a higher righting moment when heeled :-) --Also, I guess there is a significant difference in the behaviour of steel or alloy when it comes to stretching and pulling... --Finally: The final shape does depend quite a bit on the way you pull your half-hulls together, especially at the bow. keepng them flat and lifting the sheerlines up late will spread the tension better and give a rounder forefoot. Can you produce a hull that will have NO knuckle and LOTS of compound curve? I don't think so, but you can come very close I think, and some of the pics on Greg's site look very nice indeed. As for the knuckle, I do not think that that is such a big problem really if you compare to a hard-chine hull. For somebody who wants a round sections that is another league of work and cost altogether, but if you would be ready to go for that you would probably look down on even the sweetest origami design because there will always be a bit of chine somewhere ;-) Hope that helps, and you will get some more opinions from Brent and Greg. Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 5623|5618|2004-09-25 16:01:35|fenixrises|Re: Cutting steel|Here is an even better deal Saw and blade $285 USD http://www.zeitlow.com/catalog.asp?action=view&cid=17&pid=734 Take care, Fred| 5624|5624|2004-09-25 16:21:29|fenixrises|Cheap engine|Hi all, Here's a very cheap running 30hp Volvo. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=50441&item=2490775220&sspagename=rvi%3A1%3A2 Take care, Fred| 5625|5624|2004-09-25 16:58:52|brentswain38|Re: Cheap engine|I once saw a bumper sticker which read " Any parts found falling off my Volvo are of the finest Swedish craftsmanship."I'd steer clear of any engine witht the name Volvo on it given their extremely high failure rate.If they are real cheap they can be used for a mooring , if they are big enough. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > > Here's a very cheap running 30hp Volvo. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&category=50441&item=2490775220&sspagename=rvi%3A1%3A2 > > Take care, > Fred | 5626|5618|2004-09-25 16:59:58|brentswain38|Re: Cutting steel|Has anyone here tried this steel cutting saw yet? It would be great if it works well. Brenmt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Here is an even better deal > Saw and blade $285 USD > > http://www.zeitlow.com/catalog.asp?action=view&cid=17&pid=734 > > Take care, > Fred | 5627|5599|2004-09-25 17:08:43|brentswain38|Re: Portable welder|I haven't checked the voltage , but will. Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't blown the diodes yet ,but hooked a toggle switch so I can disconnect the field when ot using it, and I am worried about how long they will last, It already owes mwe nothing, but I have an old scottie welder which has diodes 5024 in heat sinks which I'll use if this one blows. I haven't used it for a whole day yet as most of my projects are only a few minutes at a time. It's been a godsend for those. The Scotti had only a 3/8th inch single belt for 135 amps and slippage was neve a problem with it. I use a standard vbet type a on a 9 inch pupllety and have noticed no slippage.I'll kep you posted. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I just hooked up a 100 amp alternator , belt driven off my main > > engine for welding . > > Hi Brent > > useful posts about using alternators as welders. I've never tried > using a lamp in series with the rotor winding, nor have I tested an > alternator-welder for a whole day as you've done .... So, a couple > of questions. > > Have you measured the open circuit voltage on the stinger leads when > using your technique ? > > Was there any evidence of over-heating and/or belt slippage when > working the device hard ? > These are problems reported by others when using the bigger > alternators. They should be so lucky - I've never even *seen* a 140A > alternator let alone having played with one. > > One thing continues to puzzle me about this technique - most of us > have been brought up to believe that an alternator must *never* be > disconnected whilst the engine is running - I guess this is due to > back-emf generated by the windings which can take the diodes out. > Yet with an alternator-welder, connection/ disconnection is happening > all the time - and under heavy loads too. Maybe it's time for the > experts to re-write the manual ? > > Colin | 5628|5628|2004-09-25 17:33:19|denis buggy|Re: insulation and design|dear all there is a new product made especially for insulating boats called thinsiulate and thermoduct from WEBASTO the maker of diesel truck/bus/boat heaters and 3M check out www.webasto.co.uk not cheap but high tech , 26 stg per meter is not cheap. query has anybody come across any study plans for a steel trimaran . all the naval research is heading that way Australian and English and U.S. all have held major conferences on the future design of their craft with trimarans leading on design values. Britain's Vosper Thornycroft and U.S. General Dynamics having prototypes proving their figures and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft directive ) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg for turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements take care out there .regards Denis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5629|5618|2004-09-25 19:59:13|fenixrises|Re: Cutting steel|I did some more looking on the web and found many places that sell just blades or blades and saw combos. Some blades are for standard circular saw types and some are for cut off types. According to one site the blade is rated to cut 280 linear feet of 1/4" mild steel plate. The blade cost $40 USD. Having used the small battery operated saw for years I can attest to its effectiveness but I'm not sure I would recommend it for a single large cutting job like cutting out an entire hull and deck. However the blades I saw for sale on the internet have the same design. Using them with a good heavy duty worm drive saw should work quite well. Fred "brentswain38" wrote: > Has anyone here tried this steel cutting saw yet? It would be great > if it works well. > Brenmt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > Here is an even better deal > > Saw and blade $285 USD > > > > http://www.zeitlow.com/catalog.asp?action=view&cid=17&pid=734 > > > > Take care, > > Fred | 5630|4531|2004-09-25 21:30:21|fenixrises|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi Jim, For a neophyte I would recommend that you get as much sailing experience as possible before you start building anything. Often this can be done by volunteering to crew on club racers. This way you can get sailing, sail trim, sail handling and boat handling experience. You will also start to get an idea about the relative comfort level to be found on small sailboats. Rather than starting out by building a boat it might be wise to buy an older f/g boat. Many of them are quite well built and with some modification can be very suitable for what you want to do. Once you live and cruise aboard for a couple of years you will find out if the reality matches the dream. Plus you will have a much better idea about how you want a boat to be built, laid out and outfitted. In the size range you are suggesting ~26' I think you would do well to keep at at least a small very comfortable cockpit. Even though you would not want to spend much time there in cold weather it is quite a different story in the tropics. As for the interior lay out I think the Pardey's first boat had an excellent setup. At sea in a small boat usually the best sea berths are quarter berths. And it is nice to have room to spread out in port in a larger forward berth. The galley and chart table amidships work quite well as the motion in a boat that small can get pretty lively whether or not you move 2-3 feet fore and aft. If your heart is set on it, do it! In the early 80's I was temporarily in Hilo, Hawaii repairing a dismasted 45'er. One day a young guy about 23 yo came sailing in from Dana Point, Ca. He had a gaff rigged 20' Flicka that he built from scratch in the backyard of his parents house. He used an outboard for power. His dingy was about the size of a large truck tire innertube. His girlfriend told him it was a great experience and she would not trade the experience for anything but she would also never set foot on a sailboat again. She hopped on a plane and flew back. ;0) He was having the time of his life and was planning to continue his cruise once reprovisioned and rested a bit. It only took him 23 days to make the crossing, a very respectable time in that size boat. He also made the passage late in the season and ran into some nasty weather. While I was sweating in the tropical heat repairing dings and cutting and installing new rigging I envied him and the adventure that lay ahead. Take care, Fred "James Douglas" wrote: > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. | 5631|5618|2004-09-25 21:30:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cutting steel|Fred, My brother in law has one of these chop style saws (electrical contractor) and I can attest that they cut pipe and flat strip steel very well. One of the companies that sells annular hole saws, also sells a portable circular saw for this purpose. The circular saw is funny looking it has a very large blade for a portable saw. These saws generally spin at about 1/4 the speed of an abrasive cutoff saw. In aluminum you can cut quite a curve with a circular saw and carbide blade. In steel you'll find that even a small amount of curvature will bind the blade. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "fenixrises" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 7:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting steel > I did some more looking on the web and found many places that sell > just blades or blades and saw combos. Some blades are for standard > circular saw types and some are for cut off types. According to one > site the blade is rated to cut 280 linear feet of 1/4" mild steel > plate. The blade cost $40 USD. > Having used the small battery operated saw for years I can attest to > its effectiveness but I'm not sure I would recommend it for a single > large cutting job like cutting out an entire hull and deck. However > the blades I saw for sale on the internet have the same design. Using > them with a good heavy duty worm drive saw should work quite well. > > Fred > > > "brentswain38" wrote: > > Has anyone here tried this steel cutting saw yet? It would be great > > if it works well. > > Brenmt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > wrote: > > > Here is an even better deal > > > Saw and blade $285 USD > > > > > > http://www.zeitlow.com/catalog.asp?action=view&cid=17&pid=734 > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5632|5621|2004-09-25 21:55:43|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Compund curves question|Fred, I bought a copy of the plans for Brent's 31 footer and then attempted to bring the lines into Rhino and surface them. The lines were not quite accurate enough to produce a fair surface, paper vs. digital accuracy. I then tried to develop a similar shape that I knew would unroll complete flat in Rhino. Every time I got a bow and stern with a crease in it. Yet having seen one of Brent's 36 footers in person I know that the hull appears very. I played my models for quite some time and I think I have finally resolved the paradox. My digital models are stress free surfaces, the shape you would get if the material was completely flexible with no stiffness at all. In the real world the flat sheet gets warped into shape by pulling the edges together with a come-along. Those creases simply can't happen, they represent a reversal of the curvature of the surface at a time when you are applying high stresses. Then it dawned on me that while the forces applied in bending the sheets are quite high, the forces attempting to stretch the sheets is so small that virtually no stretching will occur. This means that the edges of the sheet will always stay the same length. It also means that a line drawn on the sheet before pulling the hull together will measure the same length afterwards. This suggested that I could model my unrollable shapes into a hull with creases, then extract a set of lines at each station along the hull. Finally I could measure the LENGTH of each station line and create a new curve that has roughly the same curvature without the kink, but exactly the same length. This would be the path that the real steel would actually follow when the forces of pulling the hulls into shape induce a compound curvature into the steel. I did this for a small portion of the bow and the results produced a very fair surface that very closely followed the lines on Brent's plans. Unfortunately I have not had the time to take this approach to a logical conclusion. However it appears that had I finished what I would have gotten is a 3D hull shape that is accurate enough that the interior could be completely designed and pre-assembled that would fit into a hull you could accurately cut on a CNC table using the unrolled surfaces. As you pointed out, without an accurate 3D model a Cad design of the interior would be pretty poor. And that was exactly what I was working at. I have been on board literally dozens of boats at shows looking very carefully at the engineering of the living space. I have also been aboard several homebuilt boats. They all suffered from the same problem. The designers were clearly working from very inaccurate data. In nearly every case you could find little details where if they moved that corner on the other end of the boat towards bow an inch the feature at this end would have fit perfectly. But it doesn't so you have some kludge to make it fit. Boat hulls, like houses go together very fast. It is the enormity of the fitting out that often seems to kill the whole project. If you build the interior before you even built the hull I believe the ultimate success rate would go way up. Hope this gives you some ideas. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "fenixrises" To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Compund curves question > Hi all, > > I put together the simple origami model from the files section today. > My first cardboard boat. ;) While doing this I was thinking about the > technique and the various things different people have done to > simplify the design process. Computers and programs. I am a fan and > have used each quite a bit. But not in this application. > However I wonder if something very subtle is being missed. > > Greg from OrigamiMagic says that the program extension that he has > developed enables him to produce a perfectly fair set of drawings > and/or patterns for origami hulls. I applaud his efforts and am not > questioning what he has accomplished. As I understand what he has > written it means that a full size plate can pulled into a hull without > the slight unfairness near the knuckle at the end of the chine(s). > Does this precise fairing also eliminate the compounding of the fore > and aft sections of the hull? If it does, is this a good thing? > > From an aesthetic and structural point of view the compounding > is beneficial. > > Gerd, Gary and some others have worked with differnt programs trying > to develop a similar process. Gary has said that he always runs into > one problem. The forward and aft parts of the hull refuse to develop > properly in a design like Brent's because there is a forced > compounding in the surface. > > So does the plate naturally develop a slight compounding? Is it > because of the resistence of the plate and longitudinal combination > to being forced into shape? Or is the compounding a result of a > slight unfairness at the end of the chine? > > If the plate has compound curves regardless of design, then > the ability to use CAD to precisely design the interior would not be > possible at present. > > If the compounding is only the result of slight unfairness of the > chine and would not happen in a perfectly fair design perhaps the > slight unfairness of the end of the chine is worthwhile because of > the aesthetics of the more visible topsides. > > So what do you guys out there with your thinking caps on say? > > Take care, > Fred > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 5633|5591|2004-09-26 01:22:03|Ben Tucker|Re: a srrios question, can it be done in origami ??|Hi all Just playing around, have put a cardboard cutout image into the files section under "double ender" and a picture. pretty crude but might be fun for those of you interested in the double ended colin archer-ish concept. The bow is quite abit finer than a colin archer, and the D/L is around 280-300 so not so heavy. can't get the big fat stern easily out of origami, it is alot finer (more like a canoe stern) than the modern interpretations like the valiant 40's and stuff (that big stern reduces the pitching, and helps with the top end speed). Having sailed on a few double enders I found that brents comments are true, downwind they also seemed to roll alot more, and squat, I think you lose alot of stability not having the bearing down aft, still they look great! and kind of feel reasuring when a big crest is chasing you, you don't get the thud and excelleration when the wave hits a big transom. Imagine this concept with some nice 8 inch varnished wooden bulwarks (big gaps to let the sea out) a big gaff yawl or cutter rig (10 foot bowsprit!) and a small square cabin with a mostly flush deck kind of like some of the designs of george bughler or the paul johnson? venuses?. Dream on Ben| 5634|1761|2004-09-26 06:38:33|tronfixr|Re: Electrolysis|From what I understand, the US Navy has done a lot of research on this method of sensing and then 'nulling' the potential differences around the hull of a metal ship (it varies in different spots) to prevent galvanic corrosion. The material I read from a web search indicated this method consumes large amounts of power and that galvanic corrosion is basically all corrosion. The material related that even oxidation is a difference of potential on molecular levels... Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi Colin, > > Curing the problem at the source would require a complete > sanitization of the harbor. Newport harbor was (mis)used extensively > during WWII. The bottom is foul with remants of decomposing detrius > remaining from that era. Add to this the fact that the west side of > the harbor is basically a long sand bar covered with houses from the > early 1900's to present day construction. Many of the older houses > have antiquated house wiring systems that leak electricity into the > ground through the grounding electrodes(ground rod). Of course the > ground is only a few feet above sea level so is well saturated with > saltwater. I am sure that the problem could be remediated by dredging > the harbor down to clean sand and eliminating all housing on the > penisula and all buildings on the mainland east of the harbor. The > fact that the an average house lot(very small) on the penisula is > worth $1,000,000+ USD and the commercial property on the mainland > side worth even more I do not think that the city or the now very > bankrupt state of California will ever do something of that nature. > > The electronic gizmos that Bartell manufacture are supposed to do > exactly what you recommend. They sense and reverse the electrical > currents that cause the electrolysis on boats. > > Take care, > Fred > PS At the time I was there it was easy to drop one probe from a volt > meter into the water and attach the other end to a shoreside > electrical ground and read 3 ~ 4 volts DC. > > > > I've never heard of anything so crazy (!!) If the harbour is > > so "hot", then surely the answer is for the boat-owners to get > > together to exert pressure on the authorities to cure the problem > at > > source, rather than to come up with such electronic gizmos, or > > collectively keep dissolving hundredweights of zinc into the water > > every year ? I can't believe all that zinc can be good for the sea- > > life. > > > > However, if you really must have gizmos:- rather than employ > > sacrifical zincs, the Forth Bridge in Scotland has it's underwater > > steel structures kept at an artificially small reversed voltage in > > order to prevent the unpainted metal from corroding. I see no > reason > > why similar protection couldn't be employed on ships/ steel yachts. > > > > Colin | 5635|5635|2004-09-26 07:47:07|Robert Gainer|Re: Digest Number 953|Re: insulation and design Denis said, �and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft directive) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg for turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements� Denis, Is the RCD the same thing as British MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) code? There is an editorial by Dudley Dawson in this months �Professional Boat Builder� on page 192 about the change in the MCA and its very deleterious effect on the larger boats. The code was very loose before and left the details up to the designer while setting goals and standards. Now the new code is being rigorously enforced and details all aspects of the design and construction in the same way a passenger ship is regulated. From the sound of it trouble is on the way. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement| 5636|5618|2004-09-26 07:53:10|fenixrises|Re: Cutting steel|Hi Gary, I have not cut a lot of metal plate with one of these saws. The thickest I have cut with the battery saw is about 10-12 guage. I have cut a lot of plywood with skilsaws, much faster and easier that with a sabersaw or jigsaw. It is easy to cut plywood even in pretty tight curves if the blade is set only deep enough to go through the material. I suspect the same technique works for cutting alloy. For steel the same could be tried and might still be effective by using a smaller diameter blade. The blades that I saw at different online sites were available in ~ 5 1/2" size. Of course they would not last as long but the speed and ease of cutting may be worth it. As the blades are not too expensive I might buy a couple and try them out. Take care, Fred "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > In aluminum you can cut quite a curve with a circular saw and carbide blade. > In steel you'll find that even a small amount of curvature will bind the > blade. > > Gary H. Lucas | 5637|5621|2004-09-26 08:19:18|fenixrises|Re: Compund curves question|Hi Gary, Thanks for the update. Although I am not planning on designing my own boat, I have enough of a basic understanding of boat design and computers to know what you want to accomplish. I have done a lot of patterning for boat interiors. Full size patterns are great for production boats but are only as good or bad as the people and ideas that go into making them. Even with accurate scale drawings many people cannot relate what they see in 2d(3d on computers) dimensioned drawings to the full size finished product. Certainly an accurate scale drawing would allow people to know what is or is not possible. In an earlier post Brent related an idea about someone using large pieces of cardboard, from appliance boxes, to do a full size mock up in the boat. For many people not well versed in computer modeling and building their first boat this would be a very good idea. Such things as seat and counter heights, berth lengths, headroom needed above a settee, widths for head comparments and stove enclosures are pretty standard. Settee berths cannot effectively be 5'6" long. Deciding whether to make it 6'2", 6'3" or 6'4" in order to allow something else to fit better is what may be well handled in a CAD program. Take care, Fred "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Fred, > > I bought a copy of the plans for Brent's 31 footer and then attempted to > bring the lines into Rhino and surface them. The lines were not quite > accurate enough to produce a fair surface, paper vs. digital accuracy. I > then tried to develop a similar shape that I knew would unroll complete flat > in Rhino. Every time I got a bow and stern with a crease in it. Yet having > seen one of Brent's 36 footers in person I know that the hull appears very. > I played my models for quite some time and I think I have finally resolved > the paradox. > > My digital models are stress free surfaces, the shape you would get if the > material was completely flexible with no stiffness at all. In the real > world the flat sheet gets warped into shape by pulling the edges together > with a come-along. Those creases simply can't happen, they represent a > reversal of the curvature of the surface at a time when you are applying > high stresses. Then it dawned on me that while the forces applied in > bending the sheets are quite high, the forces attempting to stretch the > sheets is so small that virtually no stretching will occur. This means that > the edges of the sheet will always stay the same length. It also means that > a line drawn on the sheet before pulling the hull together will measure the > same length afterwards. This suggested that I could model my unrollable > shapes into a hull with creases, then extract a set of lines at each station > along the hull. Finally I could measure the LENGTH of each station line and > create a new curve that has roughly the same curvature without the kink, but > exactly the same length. This would be the path that the real steel would > actually follow when the forces of pulling the hulls into shape induce a > compound curvature into the steel. I did this for a small portion of the > bow and the results produced a very fair surface that very closely followed > the lines on Brent's plans. Unfortunately I have not had the time to take > this approach to a logical conclusion. However it appears that had I > finished what I would have gotten is a 3D hull shape that is accurate enough > that the interior could be completely designed and pre-assembled that would > fit into a hull you could accurately cut on a CNC table using the unrolled > surfaces. > > As you pointed out, without an accurate 3D model a Cad design of the > interior would be pretty poor. And that was exactly what I was working at. > I have been on board literally dozens of boats at shows looking very > carefully at the engineering of the living space. I have also been aboard > several homebuilt boats. They all suffered from the same problem. The > designers were clearly working from very inaccurate data. In nearly every > case you could find little details where if they moved that corner on the > other end of the boat towards bow an inch the feature at this end would have > fit perfectly. But it doesn't so you have some kludge to make it fit. > > Boat hulls, like houses go together very fast. It is the enormity of the > fitting out that often seems to kill the whole project. If you build the > interior before you even built the hull I believe the ultimate success rate > would go way up. > > Hope this gives you some ideas. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "fenixrises" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 1:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Compund curves question > > > > Hi all, > > > > I put together the simple origami model from the files section today. > > My first cardboard boat. ;) While doing this I was thinking about the > > technique and the various things different people have done to > > simplify the design process. Computers and programs. I am a fan and > > have used each quite a bit. But not in this application. > > However I wonder if something very subtle is being missed. > > > > Greg from OrigamiMagic says that the program extension that he has > > developed enables him to produce a perfectly fair set of drawings > > and/or patterns for origami hulls. I applaud his efforts and am not > > questioning what he has accomplished. As I understand what he has > > written it means that a full size plate can pulled into a hull without > > the slight unfairness near the knuckle at the end of the chine(s). > > Does this precise fairing also eliminate the compounding of the fore > > and aft sections of the hull? If it does, is this a good thing? > > > > From an aesthetic and structural point of view the compounding > > is beneficial. > > > > Gerd, Gary and some others have worked with differnt programs trying > > to develop a similar process. Gary has said that he always runs into > > one problem. The forward and aft parts of the hull refuse to develop > > properly in a design like Brent's because there is a forced > > compounding in the surface. > > > > So does the plate naturally develop a slight compounding? Is it > > because of the resistence of the plate and longitudinal combination > > to being forced into shape? Or is the compounding a result of a > > slight unfairness at the end of the chine? > > > > If the plate has compound curves regardless of design, then > > the ability to use CAD to precisely design the interior would not be > > possible at present. > > > > If the compounding is only the result of slight unfairness of the > > chine and would not happen in a perfectly fair design perhaps the > > slight unfairness of the end of the chine is worthwhile because of > > the aesthetics of the more visible topsides. > > > > So what do you guys out there with your thinking caps on say? > > > > Take care, > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5638|5638|2004-09-26 08:36:11|Robert Gainer|Strain for design and FEA|The British Royal Institution of Naval Architects published in 2002 a paper on the safety factors in the design of a composite yacht. The paper has some interesting information on how to use FEA in the design possess and a discussion of the ways to decide on the safety factor to use in the design. The underlining methodology is applicable to steel also. http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2002/17th -4- Safety factors in composite yacht structures.pdf Without knowing the load or strain that you are designing the structure to withstand you are just guessing and using the computer to hide the fact that you don�t know how strong the structure has to be. I think you need to always remember that the computer may print out a number that has a precision of 16 decimal places and only be correct to the nearest whole integer. Don�t be overly impressed by computers, they are a tool that only gives you useful information if used correctly. In 1994 the British Royal Institution of Naval Architects published this paper also. It�s a presentation of the results of putting strain gauges on a 9.4-meter sailboat and collecting real data on the loads encountered under sail. There is a section dealing with the loads on the structure during grounding. There is also a section about the strain on the rudder. http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/1994/Load measurements on the 9.4 m sailing yacht - Sail Lab.pdf All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/| 5639|5639|2004-09-26 08:48:25|Scott Carle|roberts boat?|do you have a link to that roberts? Scott Carle The asking price was only $47,000 USD. For its type that's a hell of deal but more boat than I want to handle or maintain. There's a 43' Robert's available for $20,000 USD but I do not know its condition. Good price(possibly) but too big for me. And of course there are many suitable f/g boats available. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 5640|22|2004-09-26 09:22:59|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /double ended origami pattern/idousail5.jpg Uploaded by : benandbernie2000 Description : guess i must have been bored You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/double%20ended%20origami%20pattern/idousail5.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, benandbernie2000 | 5641|5641|2004-09-26 09:35:16|ben_azo|Building tricks & a joke :-)|an easychineassembly11.jp sketch can be seen in the last pic posted in Photos and in the Folder " Ben's Wigwam " I made in the Origamiboats 2 Files . Taylors1&2 ( sory its in French ) shows how tho build a serpentin into the small Taylors stove to make warm water for a waterboiler or a heating system for small boats , no electricity needed ( pics on demand ) I posted waterlines and plating forming pics ( sory in Dutch ) from a small boat , made by : http://www.mekon.nl Vripack 11 jpg , shows how steel building , cutting forming plans etcetera is done by the Dutch industry To have an idea you could visit : http://www.centraalstaal.nl/ some nice pics in mainframe,preface & forming Steel or aluminum boatbuilding ,chine , round bildge or origami a combination of both , frameless or not , with horizontal or with vertical frames alone ( see the VdSsystem11.jpg) consists in the assembly of parts to be precut by somebody ; the easyest way is a precut , preformed and prethreated hull , deck and parts kit ( prices go down every day:-) For the guys down under : sinds 2000 more than 15000 Tons of precut assembly steel leaves their Singapore outlet every year.And the alphanumeric codes & curved and straight lines on the plates makes alignment,and assembly real easy. Until today I found no design program that integrated the usual nautical design goodies with an Origami plating ; I went to see an experienced Rhino use , not yet maybe later ?? Does anybody knows of such a program ? Does anybody has experience with Touch3D or TouchCAD from Lundstrom ?? A joke a day keeps the doctor away , in the "Wigwam" you will find a visual joke wich I call: Vive la Difference et la Liberté d' Interpretation :-) Old Ben| 5642|5639|2004-09-26 09:49:47|fenixrises|Re: roberts boat?|Hi Scott, I don't remember the site off hand. The boat is listed by a broker in Texas. The boat is located in Tampa, Fla. According to the picture it is on land, looks like a dry storage boat yard. Take care, Fred Scott Carle wrote: > do you have a link to that roberts? > > Scott Carle > | 5643|5621|2004-09-26 13:04:03|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Compund curves question|Fred, I just saw an email for a new Rhino plug-in that will take a compound curved surface and produce a flat pattern from it. The pattern will of course be an approximation, but may be very useful for developing cut out models of various hull ideas. The plug-in is called "roadkill" Gary H. Lucas| 5644|5638|2004-09-26 14:23:51|David K McComber|Re: Strain for design and FEA|Your link doesn't work!! Bummer I would like to read it. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@...] Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:36 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Strain for design and FEA The British Royal Institution of Naval Architects published in 2002 a paper on the safety factors in the design of a composite yacht. The paper has some interesting information on how to use FEA in the design possess and a discussion of the ways to decide on the safety factor to use in the design. The underlining methodology is applicable to steel also. http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2002/17th -4- Safety factors in composite yacht structures.pdf Without knowing the load or strain that you are designing the structure to withstand you are just guessing and using the computer to hide the fact that you don't know how strong the structure has to be. I think you need to always remember that the computer may print out a number that has a precision of 16 decimal places and only be correct to the nearest whole integer. Don't be overly impressed by computers, they are a tool that only gives you useful information if used correctly. In 1994 the British Royal Institution of Naval Architects published this paper also. It's a presentation of the results of putting strain gauges on a 9.4-meter sailboat and collecting real data on the loads encountered under sail. There is a section dealing with the loads on the structure during grounding. There is also a section about the strain on the rudder. http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/1994/Load measurements on the 9.4 m sailing yacht - Sail Lab.pdf All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5645|22|2004-09-26 14:42:24|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /LP36-01A.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Double Ender" Whitehead" for origami steel construction You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/LP36-01A.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 5646|5621|2004-09-26 14:57:32|David K McComber|Re: Compund curves question|I think that Proteus Engineering (Rhino Marine) also has a plug in called expander. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 1:04 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Compund curves question Fred, I just saw an email for a new Rhino plug-in that will take a compound curved surface and produce a flat pattern from it. The pattern will of course be an approximation, but may be very useful for developing cut out models of various hull ideas. The plug-in is called "roadkill" Gary H. Lucas To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5647|5618|2004-09-26 15:24:18|fmichael graham|Re: Cutting steel|I don't see any performance stats on this cutting wheel, vis a vis, rate of cut. Oxy-fuel cutting has it's disadvantages of distortion and surface hardening. These problems can be alleviated - somewhat - by uniform pre-heating of the piece to be cut. I would be surprised - in a positive way - to find that the cutting wheel was anything other than a long, drawn-out process. Regards to all, Mike brentswain38 wrote: Has anyone here tried this steel cutting saw yet? It would be great if it works well. Brenmt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Here is an even better deal > Saw and blade $285 USD > > http://www.zeitlow.com/catalog.asp?action=view&cid=17&pid=734 > > Take care, > Fred --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5648|5638|2004-09-26 15:42:31|robertgainer|Re: Strain for design and FEA|David, Everything within the quotation marks is the link including the spaces. "www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2002/17th -4- Safety factors in composite yacht structures.pdf" "www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/1994/Load measurements on the 9.4 m sailing yacht - Sail Lab.pdf" I tried copy and paste to my browser and removed the quotation marks and it worked for me. I don't know why the mailing list changes the link, but I guess it does. All the best, Robert Gainer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > Your link doesn't work!! Bummer I would like to read it. > > David McComber > d.mccomber@c... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer_2@h...] > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:36 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Strain for design and FEA > > The British Royal Institution of Naval Architects published in 2002 a paper > on the safety factors in the design of a composite yacht. The paper has some > > interesting information on how to use FEA in the design possess and a > discussion of the ways to decide on the safety factor to use in the design. > The underlining methodology is applicable to steel also. > > http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2002/17th -4- Safety factors in > composite yacht structures.pdf > > Without knowing the load or strain that you are designing the structure to > withstand you are just guessing and using the computer to hide the fact that > > you don't know how strong the structure has to be. I think you need to > always remember that the computer may print out a number that has a > precision of 16 decimal places and only be correct to the nearest whole > integer. Don't be overly impressed by computers, they are a tool that only > gives you useful information if used correctly. In 1994 the British Royal > Institution of Naval Architects published this paper also. It's a > presentation of the results of putting strain gauges on a 9.4- meter sailboat > > and collecting real data on the loads encountered under sail. There is a > section dealing with the loads on the structure during grounding. There is > also a section about the strain on the rudder. > > http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/1994/Load measurements on the 9.4 m > sailing yacht - Sail Lab.pdf > > All the best, > Robert Gainer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 5649|5628|2004-09-26 15:42:54|fmichael graham|Re: insulation and design|Denis: I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process should take some time and could very well prove to be unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship building, for his analysis. Your comments on U.K. port requirements remind me of a few years ago when New Zealand brought in the requirement for a "safety certificate" for the pleasure boaters. I seem to remember the cost being $75 to avoid the possibility of one's boat being deemed unseaworthy & impounded. Another tax-grab? The New Zealand Government used the excuse of too many expensive sea rescues to implement the fee. Maybe, some of our N.Z./Aus. members can enlighten us as to present status of fee, etc. Regards, Mike denis buggy wrote: dear all there is a new product made especially for insulating boats called thinsiulate and thermoduct from WEBASTO the maker of diesel truck/bus/boat heaters and 3M check out www.webasto.co.uk not cheap but high tech , 26 stg per meter is not cheap. query has anybody come across any study plans for a steel trimaran . all the naval research is heading that way Australian and English and U.S. all have held major conferences on the future design of their craft with trimarans leading on design values. Britain's Vosper Thornycroft and U.S. General Dynamics having prototypes proving their figures and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft directive ) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg for turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements take care out there .regards Denis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5650|5650|2004-09-26 15:44:01|John Waalkes|double enders|Ben, I like your thinking, I also have been dreaming and like the looks and results from a double ender. I wonder if one were to use multiple darts would the knuckles would be less apparent? I sailed on a friends 30' Fisher motor sailer in the 70's bringing her from Seattle to Petersburg Ak. with her pilot hse and Volvo we were warm and dry not like a 32' Westsail that made the same trip. The high bullwarks center pilot house and interior layout gave her enough room so my friend, wife, 5 kids under 9, oh yes one large black dog lived aboard one winter. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5651|5651|2004-09-26 17:35:10|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|"> I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process should take some time and could very well prove to be unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship building, for his analysis." A couple quick thoughts on steel trimarans. I would seriously doubt that you would find any information steel trimarans. Trimarans are extremely weight sensitive. Much of a multi-hull's safety comes from keeping its weight light enough that the energy of the wind can be disbursed as acceleration rather than heeling. Of the common boat building materials only ferro-cement does worse than steel on a strength to weight basis. Aluminum, composites and various forms of wood construction are much more suitable to trimaran construction. Because of their extremely narrow hulls trimarans are very adaptable to 'tortured' techniques in any of these three materials which are closely akin to origami construction techniques, equally as fast and probably less expensive than steel for such narrow hull forms. With regards to the New Zealand safety inspections, an auditor report after two years showed a somewhere between a 30% and 40% decrease in the number of rescues that were required. It also indicated a drop in minor calls for help and a higher success rate in the cases where rescue was necessary. I thought taht sounded like a pretty dramatic set of results. NZ claims that the inspection program actually costs them more money to operate than the result of the inspection fees (which originally were higher) but that the reatly reduced number of rescues way more than offsets the cost of the inspection program. That said, I know that they were getting a lot of international flack so I don't know if the program is still in place. Respectfully, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5652|5651|2004-09-26 18:22:00|fmichael graham|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Yes, I don't expect steel to work as a material choice. Still, I am playing with rather unconventional hull designs and, though probably a venture which may well prove fruitless, I think it to be a valuable endeavour, if only to prove to myself that it cannot be done. Who knows, maybe the result will prove to be viable with aluminum. As my next offshore adventure will not be for 6 to 9 years, and any future construction plans will be taking place after my subsequent travel to my home-away-from-home, in the Philippines, I can not foresee a better way to amuse myself in the near future. Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr wrote:"> I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process should take some time and could very well prove to be unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship building, for his analysis." A couple quick thoughts on steel trimarans. I would seriously doubt that you would find any information steel trimarans. Trimarans are extremely weight sensitive. Much of a multi-hull's safety comes from keeping its weight light enough that the energy of the wind can be disbursed as acceleration rather than heeling. Of the common boat building materials only ferro-cement does worse than steel on a strength to weight basis. Aluminum, composites and various forms of wood construction are much more suitable to trimaran construction. Because of their extremely narrow hulls trimarans are very adaptable to 'tortured' techniques in any of these three materials which are closely akin to origami construction techniques, equally as fast and probably less expensive than steel for such narrow hull forms. With regards to the New Zealand safety inspections, an auditor report after two years showed a somewhere between a 30% and 40% decrease in the number of rescues that were required. It also indicated a drop in minor calls for help and a higher success rate in the cases where rescue was necessary. I thought taht sounded like a pretty dramatic set of results. NZ claims that the inspection program actually costs them more money to operate than the result of the inspection fees (which originally were higher) but that the reatly reduced number of rescues way more than offsets the cost of the inspection program. That said, I know that they were getting a lot of international flack so I don't know if the program is still in place. Respectfully, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5653|5651|2004-09-26 18:23:36|fmichael graham|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Whoops! Look like we posted to the wrong group, Jeff. Regards, Mike Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr wrote: "> I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process should take some time and could very well prove to be unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship building, for his analysis." A couple quick thoughts on steel trimarans. I would seriously doubt that you would find any information steel trimarans. Trimarans are extremely weight sensitive. Much of a multi-hull's safety comes from keeping its weight light enough that the energy of the wind can be disbursed as acceleration rather than heeling. Of the common boat building materials only ferro-cement does worse than steel on a strength to weight basis. Aluminum, composites and various forms of wood construction are much more suitable to trimaran construction. Because of their extremely narrow hulls trimarans are very adaptable to 'tortured' techniques in any of these three materials which are closely akin to origami construction techniques, equally as fast and probably less expensive than steel for such narrow hull forms. With regards to the New Zealand safety inspections, an auditor report after two years showed a somewhere between a 30% and 40% decrease in the number of rescues that were required. It also indicated a drop in minor calls for help and a higher success rate in the cases where rescue was necessary. I thought taht sounded like a pretty dramatic set of results. NZ claims that the inspection program actually costs them more money to operate than the result of the inspection fees (which originally were higher) but that the reatly reduced number of rescues way more than offsets the cost of the inspection program. That said, I know that they were getting a lot of international flack so I don't know if the program is still in place. Respectfully, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5654|5635|2004-09-26 18:41:12|denis buggy|Re: Digest Number 953|dear Robert I have since found that the directive does not apply to homebuilt as long as they are not sold within five years of first construction and the advice is you should comply with the directive for insurance and resale reasons however turn up in any one of thousands of us boats which are factory built and have not got the approval and you will lose 5000.00 or boat regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Gainer" To: Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 12:47 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Digest Number 953 > > Re: insulation and design > > Denis said, > "and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft > directive) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg > for > turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements" > > > Denis, > Is the RCD the same thing as British MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) > code? There is an editorial by Dudley Dawson in this months "Professional > Boat Builder" on page 192 about the change in the MCA and its very > deleterious effect on the larger boats. The code was very loose before and > left the details up to the designer while setting goals and standards. Now > the new code is being rigorously enforced and details all aspects of the > design and construction in the same way a passenger ship is regulated. > From > the sound of it trouble is on the way. > All the best, > Robert Gainer > > _________________________________________________________________ > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 5655|5168|2004-09-26 19:25:01|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|If one looks at example 3 on our FAE analysis, where the transverse framing does not penetrate down into the skeg, you will notice a stress riser is formed in the hull at the intersection of the skeg and frame. This stress riser is not reduced by using a finer plot, and becomes more pronounced the thinner the materials. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/test2.jpg This is consistent with the MBS recommendation to weld on hull doublers in way of the skeg. Even with transverse framing, if it is not done correctly, stress risers will be formed in the hull, which require the installation of doublers. However, if one looks at the examples labeled "deep floors", where the framing penetrates into the skeg, you will notice that the stress risers in the hull have been eliminated. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/test8.jpg (use both the scale and the color together). The maximum stress is reduced, and moved from the hull down into the skeg. Thus, not only does penetrating the skeg with the framing make it stronger, it also eliminates the stress riser in the hull, which should eliminate the need for hull doublers. This is significant, because it tends to show that not only is transverse framing important, but also that the style of framing can make a significant difference in eliminating stress risers. By penetrating the skeg with the framing, beyond the hull, the stress riser in the hulll can be eliminated entirely. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > With the sides of the skeg taking either tension or compression and > being extremely strong in that sense , the important thing is to > maximise the attachement of the transverse web to the skeg. Having > even a short transverse bulkhead going into the skeg , welded as much > as possible to the sides of the skeg makes for a huge increase in the > strength of the hull - skeg attachement . > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Thanks Ted, what is shown is a slice through the skeg. > The "external brace" >> is a transverse member within the skeg, that penetrates downwards > from >> inside the hull. It is not external to the hull or the skeg. >> >> FEA and other methods all have limitations, yet they provide useful > results. >> We don't know if it will rain tomorrow, but forecasting does > provide some >> idea of the probability. To indicate areas that might need > attention, FEA >> looks like a fine tool to me. However, it is no more than a > forecast. >> Better to run the FEA on a skeg before it is built, and investigate > further >> areas that are predicted to be weak, rather than go sailing > offshore and >> discover the problems later. >> >> As noted on the models, the purpose of the analysis was not to > calculate >> loads for a specific skeg. Rather, to show how the geometry of the > framing >> at the point of attachment can affect the stress. The significant > result >> was that by adding transverse framing to a skeg, overall peak loads > are >> significantly reduced, and the loads can be minimized in the skin > of the >> hull, with the point of maximum stress moved downwards, out of the > hull, and >> into the skeg. >> >> Thus, in a case like Mungo, with transverse framing, the skeg would > likely >> have failed, rather than the hull, and only after much more abuse. > A boat >> without a skeg, but still water tight being more desired than a > boat with a >> skeg but a failure in the hull. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "edward_stoneuk" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:58 AM >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> > Greg, >> > >> > Regarding your FEA plot: >> > >> > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> > >> > I must admit I was confused by your Finite Element Analysis > plot. I >> > assumed that you would have used the same scale. Not knowing much >> > about FEA, but knowing enough to know that I was ignorant I spoke > to >> > two friends, one of whom is a university engineering lecturer and >> > the other has a masters degree in engineering from Oxford and now >> > sells Ansys engineering analysis software as well as teaching its >> > use and carrying out contract engineering analysis. When I showed >> > them your plot, their comments were as follows: >> > >> > 1. Why would anybody build skegs or keels with an external >> > cross member? What is the point of the plot it if nobody will > build >> > it? >> > 2. The plot should show the loads otherwise it is meaningless >> > as an aid to design. >> > 3. The plot should have the element edges shown on the surface. >> > 4. Re-run the analysis with the elements at half the size they >> > are on the plot shown to see how this will change the apparent >> > stress. >> > 5. The stiffening structures as designed are creating >> > singularities that are places of theoretical infinite stress. >> > 6. A professor of engineering, expert in FEA, remarked that of >> > all the FEA plots that he had seen 80% were rubbish. The danger >> > being that many operators did not have sufficient understanding to >> > know that the analysis was rubbish. >> > 7. FEA on its own was not enough to analyse the likely failure >> > of a structure. Fracture analysis, energy equations and the study >> > of deflections were also used to establish the likelihood of a > crack >> > starting and propagating. >> > >> > My comments are: >> > >> > Item 5 above is interesting in that is another way of describing > tri- >> > axial stresses, with which I think you are a familiar. >> > >> > My Oxford friend also spoke of his early days at Lucas when they >> > were designing brackets for automobile alternators, which might > seem >> > a bit trivial but on inspection it is a structure which is subject >> > not only to the static load of the alternator but is bolted to a >> > vibrating engine and is situated in another structure that bumps > and >> > swerves about generating all sorts of dynamic loads. They used > mock >> > up brackets of foamed plastic sheet to get a feel for the way the >> > bracket would react to these various loads and not break or > resonate. >> > >> > Both my friends spoke of the importance of having a feel for what >> > was going on in a structure being analysed otherwise one could end >> > up with the familiar GIBO: garbage in garbage out. This concern > has >> > been raised in the Professional Engineering Journal published by > the >> > UK Institution of Mechanical Engineers, namely that with the >> > availability of relatively low cost FEA software it was being used >> > inappropriately. >> > >> > Hope this helps. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Ted >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5656|5168|2004-09-26 19:25:02|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|parasites? Inspiration for our first boat came from an article written by Gary Curtis in a popular sailing magazine almost 20 years ago, in which he described the process, provided a 2-chine pattern, along with pictures of a 40 foot steel boat he was folding under license from a Swedish(?) company. This can be confirmed by looking at our first boat, which is 2-chined, not single chined. The only case I know of that might fit is what was told to us by Ken Splett. Ken is a very experienced boat builder. He told us that he built the first 40, and drew the patterns. His claim was that the patterns were taken from him. If true - and we have no idea if Ken's claim is true - then under the Canadian Copyright Act, Ken may own the rights to the 40's, and be due 100% of the profits. Again, we don't know what the facts are. Ken has demonstrated in previous boats the skill to have produced the patterns, but also he could be in error. We have never claimed to have invented the process. It could well be that all who make such claims are not being factual, that the process was developed in Europe many years ago. If we have done anything original, it is to create a series of more modern hull forms, more accurate patterns, added designs for both alloy and steel, and have added a 3rd chine to support the bilge keels. Brent has chosen to criticize this work, and thus has opened his own work to criticism. Criticism is a vital and important part of improving any human endeavor. Be it peer-review in science, or opposition parties in government. If you prohibit criticism you have tyranny and stagnation. We welcome reasoned criticism as a means of improving our own designs. Any design that cannot survive criticism doesn't belong offshore. What we do not welcome is the name calling that goes on in this group by people that disagree with "controversial" positions. Even if it does improve our business, it is not good for the group, and those that resort to insulting remarks do this group no favors. As was brutally shown in the past century, if we limit free speech to appease those that resort to insults, then there is no free speech. Greg Elliott http://www.easysoftwareinc.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > Transverse stiffening does have it's place, to stiffen keels and > skegs, not randomly spaced throughout the boat in the wooden boat > tradition, where they serve no usefull structural purpose whatever. > They were invented to deal with the fact that wood has strength in > one direction only and is not a homogenous material. When steel > arrived on the scene as a boatbuilding material they simply colied > what they knew , wooden boatbuilding, without questioning the need > for all those bits and pieces .Putting them back in represents a > giant step backwards. > The story about buses in Spain is an example of how much > improvement we can make in working with metal if we think outside the > box and not get bogged down in jusifying the mistakes of the past.The > huge potential of metal as a material for building anything has > barely been tapped. > Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to put to gether a 40 ft shell, a job > I can do in less than 100 hours. If I had your "lets cling to the > past" attitude, we would all still be setting up frames and doing > huge amounts of unneccesary work to produce an inferior product. > In this ,as in any other business, there is never any shortage of > parasites who would benefit from the progress someone else has made, > while remaining critical of the one who taught him. One guy named > Gunter Richtler, who I taught to build origami boats ,later claimed > to have invented the proccess himself. I put you in the same category. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Hi Brent, as always I get a chuckle reading your email. As with > strength >> versus stiffness, your comments about navigation apply more to > yourself. We >> routinely sail in areas or coral, many of which appear > as "unsurveyed", or >> "last surveyed 18xx" on the charts, often in areas of very poor > visibility. >> Haven't yet lost a boat, touch wood. >> >> My understanding of the rules is that plastic thru-hulls are > permitted, not >> required - and only if they have a specific strength. Monel is not > subject >> to crevice corrosion underwater as with 300 series stainless, and > doesn't >> rot the wood the way rust does, but aren't we off topic talking > about wooden >> boats? >> >> Why, given your opposition to transverse framing in boats, did you > add >> framing to the skeg and bilge keels? (and to the keel if you > consider the >> transverse tank members). I was told it was because there had been > problems >> with the appendages moving around. Not that the metal broke, > rather flexed >> enough to cause problems. If frames are not required, then why add > them? >> It doesn't make sense given that you have said they are not > required. >> >> Greg Elliott >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:22 PM >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> > The need to carry the load on keels from the two strong points , > the >> > chine and centrline or tanktop and to spread out the load of the > skeg >> > was self evident and not the result of failures. >> > Jack's engine mouints and Mungo's keels are all the structural >> > failures that I'm aware of . >> > Gary Curtis was using plastic thru hulls and valves in steel >> > boats ,in order to comply with ABS rules. So much for their >> > credibility. >> > LLoyds requires stainless keelbolts on wooden boats now, even tho >> > that leads to rapid crevice corrosion in the bolts. So much for > their >> > credibility. >> > Given all the reefs you have bashed , I hope yopur judgement in >> > design matters exceeds your navigation skills.I'm beginning to > have >> > my doubts. >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The > ability >> > to >> >> survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The >> > Bones has >> >> wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have >> > long lost >> >> count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double >> > spreader, keel >> >> stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that >> > pleasure. >> >> However, as has been said many times by others, stories of > success >> > prove >> >> nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. >> >> >> >> Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were >> > required in any >> >> metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number >> >> of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami >> > boats were >> >> originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting > the >> > bilge >> >> keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is >> > consistent >> >> with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and >> > found it >> >> necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list > for >> > the group >> >> all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in >> > origami boats. >> >> As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of >> > avoiding them. >> >> >> >> I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand >> > the >> >> geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of >> >> understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the > method." >> > As I >> >> recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an >> > attachment makes >> >> it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point > out >> > where the >> >> lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and >> > strength. >> >> Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a > result >> > of its >> >> moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its >> > geometry. >> >> >> >> Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making > the >> >> attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it > stronger, >> > which >> >> can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the >> > forces. For >> >> this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 >> > times >> >> stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail >> > sooner than >> >> expected. >> >> >> >> Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, >> > not the >> >> boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As > a >> > result, >> >> the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed >> > construction, to >> >> select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for > origami, >> > without >> >> relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly >> > adapted to >> >> origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how >> > their >> >> strength compares with other metal boats. >> >> >> >> ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction >> > result in >> >> much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done > on >> > purpose, >> >> because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much >> > stronger >> >> than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a >> > grounding >> >> and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as > strong >> > as other >> >> metal boats. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on >> > our web >> >> site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot > compare >> > one >> >> drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on > each >> > drawing. >> >> From this you will see that the first example has a maximum > stress >> > of 10,500 >> >> PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - > an 8 >> > fold >> >> reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last > example >> >> (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first >> > example >> >> (frameless) before failure. >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional >> >> > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after > costruction, >> >> > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and > non >> > that >> >> > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack > of >> >> > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for >> > many >> >> > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of >> > using >> >> > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the >> > individual, >> >> > not a shortcomming in the method. >> >> > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand >> >> > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to > metal >> >> > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the >> > centreline as >> >> > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times >> > more >> >> > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing > it >> > as >> >> > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue > worries, >> > but >> >> > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. >> >> > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all >> >> > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the > hull, >> >> > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely > soly on >> >> > rubber to hold the engine in place. >> >> > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been >> > thru >> >> > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their >> > scantlings. >> >> > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your > designs >> >> > been thru? >> >> > Brent >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both >> >> > mounts would >> >> >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. > In a >> >> > seaway, if >> >> >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing > like a >> >> > 500 lb >> >> >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. >> >> >> >> >> >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that > has >> >> > been >> >> >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are > attachments, >> >> > similar to >> >> >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal >> >> > mounted at >> >> >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, > like >> >> > the other >> >> >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are >> > subject >> >> > to >> >> >> fatigue and failure without warning. >> >> >> >> >> >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than > is >> >> > standard is >> >> >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and >> > when >> >> > the >> >> >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined > afterwards, >> >> > they >> >> >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the > scantlings >> >> > for ABS and >> >> >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. >> >> >> >> >> >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for >> >> > fatigue? Has >> >> >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be >> >> > considered >> >> >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine > mount. >> >> > This >> >> >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see >> > any >> >> > reason to >> >> >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of > proven >> >> > scantlings >> >> >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser >> >> > scantlings than is >> >> >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little > extra to >> >> > make them >> >> >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I > noticed >> >> > that >> >> >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten >> > inches >> >> >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members >> >> > involved. I >> >> >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal >> >> > fatigue >> >> >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year >> >> >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke > shortly >> >> >> > after . >> >> >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed >> > small >> >> >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and >> >> > always >> >> >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in > many >> >> > cases >> >> >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been >> > repeating >> >> >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more > than >> >> >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. >> >> >> > Brent Swain >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I > remember >> >> > your >> >> >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had > dinner >> >> > with >> >> >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and >> > remember >> >> > well >> >> >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. >> > They >> >> > were >> >> >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know > was >> >> > that >> >> >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the >> > time. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is > one >> > of >> >> >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny > them, >> >> > then >> >> >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some >> > time >> >> > ago >> >> >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat > required >> >> >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of > success, >> >> > but no >> >> >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, >> > which >> >> > are >> >> >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures >> > such >> >> >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", > our >> >> > view >> >> >> > of origami is biased. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also > think >> >> > that >> >> >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal >> > boat >> >> >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a > dangerous >> > idea >> >> >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing > inherently >> >> >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is >> > not >> >> >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that >> > say >> >> >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and >> > strong. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. > The >> >> >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the > skeg >> >> > lead to >> >> >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry > it >> >> > looks >> >> >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get >> > about >> >> >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water >> > pressure on >> >> >> > the skeg and rudder. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around >> > from >> >> >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of >> >> >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure > of >> > the >> >> >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is >> > part of >> >> >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the >> > skeg, >> >> > and >> >> >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you > could >> >> > well >> >> >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far > enough. >> >> > Thus >> >> >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse >> > framing, >> >> >> > with a girder system between. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in >> > skegs. >> >> >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to > lie a >> >> > small >> >> >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with > the >> >> >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> From: silascrosby >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM >> >> >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the > whole >> >> >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The >> >> >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to >> > avoid >> >> >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- >> > hash >> >> >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have >> > heard >> >> > of >> >> >> > is >> >> >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was > hardly a >> >> >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to > subsequent >> >> >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in > the >> >> >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test > on a >> >> >> > number >> >> >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are > only >> >> >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively >> >> > unscathed. >> >> >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 > in >> >> >> > Suva,Fiji >> >> >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 >> > month >> >> >> > old >> >> >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way >> > home >> >> > to >> >> >> > BC. >> >> >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal >> > boats. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' > a >> > 40' >> >> >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere >> >> > between >> >> >> > NZ >> >> >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. >> >> > Ship,container >> >> >> > or >> >> >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. >> >> >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the > same >> >> >> > harbour >> >> >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet >> > them.Their 'Island >> >> >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of > the >> >> >> > engine >> >> >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse > welded >> >> >> > flange. >> >> >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an >> > hour >> >> > or >> >> >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. >> >> >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the > rocky >> >> >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was >> >> >> > motoring >> >> >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack > and >> >> >> > Monica). >> >> >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow > cahannel >> > and >> >> >> > hit >> >> >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - >> >> > missed >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. >> > Dented.OK. >> >> >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver >> > Island- >> >> >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we > can >> >> > tell >> >> >> > it >> >> >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit > anything >> >> >> > except >> >> >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this > trip! >> >> >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 > knots >> > we >> >> > hit >> >> >> > a >> >> >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the > large - >> > scale >> >> >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the >> > starboard >> >> >> > keel >> >> >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but >> > lunch >> >> > was >> >> >> > on >> >> >> >> the floor,jam-side down. >> >> >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of >> > disaster,real or >> >> >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami > boats or >> >> >> > others. >> >> >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who >> > sometimes >> >> > is >> >> >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the >> >> > skipper >> >> >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I > guess he >> >> >> > managed >> >> >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' >> >> >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing > on 'Loon >> > 3' >> >> > in >> >> >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum >> > origami >> >> >> > twin >> >> >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian > and >> >> >> > Allison >> >> >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great > boat! >> > We >> >> >> > were >> >> >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in > good >> > seas >> >> >> > at >> >> >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and >> > ripping >> >> >> >> along.Excellent sailing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: >> > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >> >> >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- > --- >> > --- >> >> > --- >> >> >> > ---------- >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >> > Terms >> >> > of >> >> >> > Service. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5657|1657|2004-09-26 20:56:46|fenixrises|Engine|Hi all, Here's an engine that might have good possibilities Look farther bown 4 link http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&rd=1&item=7921845710&category=33615 Fred| 5658|5651|2004-09-26 22:50:44|Ben Tucker|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Hi There was a steel trimaran built in the UK from old industrail steel tube, looked abit funny but he actually did a nice job of finishing it of, think it was around 40 feet, not sure if he ended up sticking a rig on her? look up the old PBO or Yachting Monthly for some pics. I saw a 45 foot steel catamaran down our way a couple of years ago. she was really only a motorsailer and looked slow. NZ lost to the international court about inforcing its safety section 21 on all yachts. It still insists on inforcing cat1 on all NZ yachts going overseas, so many NZers register there boats overseas to avoid stupid things like having to have had the Liferaft serviced in the last three months, the cat 1 only being valid for one trip, so if you cruise in and out of NZ regularly it gets very expensive! most of the surveyers are racing guys who survey the race boats for there cat 1 certificates, read the IYRU book on cat 1 for an idea of what complex document it is! Interestingly enough the only lives lost in the queens birthday storm that caused the whole panic about overseas boats being unsafe was from a "safe" boat that had undergone the full NZ cat 1 inspection, she was a lightly built cruiser racer with a fairly inexperinced crew, lost with all hands. The boat was a lotus 10.6, they have a reputation for flexing quite worryingly at sea, but have a nice big cockpit for partys and stuff. Most of the "unsafe" boats were later found floating, and the crews only left them because a ship happened to be handy at that time. The Rule was made more for ass covering reasons than anything else. Statistics can make an set of figues look good! The navy uses rescues as excellant real life training, After all the carry on down here about the cost of recueing the vendee globe lot, the navy reckon it has been the best real training they can get. the poeple making the fuss were the politicans and newspapers. When a govenment tells you your boat is safe is it? I have always used my own judgement, but it worrys me that many inexperanced people see having a yachtmaster offshore ticket requiring only 2500nm (including 5 passages over 60NM and 2 overnight +2 as skipper)and a cat 1 safety certificate as meaning they are safe to go offshore. the more I work in education the more I see how learning is not a substitute for experiance (however it is a very important part of it!) Cheers Ben| 5659|5651|2004-09-26 23:14:20|Michael Casling|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Was that June 004? Do you know where I could get more info on the Lotus, my brother has one. Education and experience, we had the same discussion here last week, the discussion was about and among doctors and financial folks but all sailors. You can send me a note direct if you have any Lotus info. Thanks, Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Tucker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 7:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections Interestingly enough the only lives lost in the queens birthday storm that caused the whole panic about overseas boats being unsafe was from a "safe" boat that had undergone the full NZ cat 1 inspection, she was a lightly built cruiser racer with a fairly inexperinced crew, lost with all hands. The boat was a lotus 10.6, they have a reputation for flexing quite worryingly at sea, but have a nice big cockpit for partys and stuff. The more I work in education the more I see how learning is not a substitute for experiance (however it is a very important part of it!) Cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5660|5660|2004-09-27 01:04:00|De Clarke|boats impounded in the UK?|"dear Robert I have since found that the directive does not apply to homebuilt as long as they are not sold within five years of first construction and the advice is you should comply with the directive for insurance and resale reasons however turn up in any one of thousands of us boats which are factory built and have not got the approval and you will lose 5000.00 or boat regards Denis" this sounds like an issue to take seriously... I'm a UK citizen and have often thought about returning to the old country in my boat to cruise the British Isles... but I'm damned if I'm going to walk into a $5000 fine because my boat doesn't meet some theoretical standard. so... if my boat is home-built (by the previous owner) and NOT sold within five years of her first launching, will I be safe from having her kidnapped and held for ransom? I wonder... is the point of this heavy handed bureaucratic interference "to save lives" -- i.e. conditions around the British Isles are demanding and the gov't thinks that some foreign-made boats are not up to it, therefore they want to discourage them from coming into British waters and potentially costing large amounts in search and rescue? or is the point just to raise revenue, as some of the more corrupt third world officials are sometimes known to do, by bureaucratically mugging foreign cruisers (assumed to be wealthy)? either way it seems like very bad news for the UK as a cruising destination. I sure wish all these control-freak bureaucrats would allow us sailors to sign a "Living Will" type document, one that says something like, "Don't rescue me, leave me alone." then, after promising not to cost them a penny in rescue fees, maybe they would let us go where we like and sail whatever boat we're mad enough to go to sea in...? sorry this is drifting OT, but I guess anything that would restrict where we're allowed to sail in our origamiboats is at least marginally relevant... de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 5661|5618|2004-09-27 03:02:22|jim_both|Re: Cutting steel|I cut most of steel (plate and frames) for the hull of my Roberts 345 using tungsten-tipped steel-cutting blades, and plan to us the same method when I start the deck and cabin. I'll tell you how good theses blades are. I was cutting ¼" keel plate using a 7 ¼" blade in a Makita electric saw. It was an 8' cut, and I had the steel on the ground resting on battens for clearance for the blade. The battens were on another piece of ¼" steel. I didn't realize that the blade depth was sufficient so that I was actually cutting through both pieces of steel, a total thickness of ½" It was that effortless (I also ruined a good piece of pre-primed ¼" steel plate). Besides using the Makita, I also use a 4 ½" blade in a 9" grinder. I use this for cutting 1/8" plate. I set the grinder guard to establish the blade depth, and drag the grinder backwards with the handle steering with the grip, while it is resting on its side. This method allows me to follow a pencil line very accurately, including shallow curves. The weight of the grinder is useful for reducing vibration, which can chip teeth. The teeth can be replaced and the blades can be sharpened. Small work pieces need to be securely clamped. Gloves, muffs and goggles are a must. For me the only alternative to these blades are the `zip disks'; the 1mm thick abrasive cutting disk for a small grinder. These disappear quickly at $1.70 each; the small steel cutting blade cost me about $40, and is much quicker, less heat and better value. It's worth reading the Technical Review by RMIT at http://www.austsaw.com.au/ under `Rotary Hacksaw', where I got my blades. There is also a good discussion at Google Groups: sci.engr.joining.welding by a bunch of metalworkers- http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF- 8&threadm=46b47a01.0306301324.f561978% 40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8% 26group%3Dsci.engr.joining.welding jimthom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Has anyone here tried this steel cutting saw yet? It would be great > if it works well. > Brenmt > | 5662|5621|2004-09-27 03:21:37|Gerd|Re: Compund curves question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > I think that Proteus Engineering (Rhino Marine) also has a plug in called expander. I have played around with the trial of expander but have not tried roadkill yet. It is part of the dowloadable Rhino3D Bonus-Beta pack, with lots of other neat new elements that are supposed to go into version 4. See http://www.rhino3d.com/3/bonus-beta.htm The problem that I find with expanders is that they seem to assume that the plates will be permanently deformed, like in a press, rather than give us a clear idea what might be archieved from just using the material's elasticity - our plates are not re-shaped to a compound form. They would spring back to a flat sheet, if we would open the seams, at least that's what I think, havn't tried that out with Yago yet ;-) Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 5663|5168|2004-09-27 05:04:56|Gerd|Origami History|Greg, I was always looking for more info on the origami history. I just remembered that there was a thread in boatdesign.net, where Alex presented the then new yahoo-group. You will find there: Brent: QUOTE "...In 1995 Ken Splett went to work for Gunter Richtler when he was building small aluminium workboats. Ken scaled up a set of plans for my 36 footer to 40 ft and built it for Richtler. They called it the "Fastwater 40" I spent many long hours going over the building proccess with Richtler and sold him a copy of a book I had just written on the origami building proccess. Later , while I was away cruising the South Pacific , Richtler ,in articles in Cruising World and Pacific Yachting , claimed to have invented the proccess on his own. The two magazines later published corrections of the claim...." and also: Ludesign: QUOTE "...I have designed about 50 such boats since the mid seventies (using steel, aluminum, plastic sheets and plywood) and have written a program being extremely well suited for designing such hulls. Check out www.touchcad.com _________________ Claes Lundstrom " Is Claes maybe around here, or anybody has contact to him? I had a short look at his program, and that could really be quite interesting, and if he has done so many boats, I am sure that there must lots of intersting people around european origami... Also, I remember having seen Dr Seggers folded ply boats in the seventies, see them at : http://www.dr-segger.de ... /it really would take a German or an Austrian to include his title into his domain ;-) (The Seggers shapes are quite similar to the newer polish design that somebody here dug up some months ago, at http://www.zeglarstwo.3miasto.pl/projgrup/km1.html) Also I remember that there was talk about a WWII research of the priciple? As for patents: Anybody has details? I think that trying to patent "folding hulls from sheet-material with cuts in" might have a hard time to prove that that is an original idea, but IANAL. What would remain is the design and specific shape for any particular boat, which I think would fall under the same copyright as any other design. Gerd The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5664|5635|2004-09-27 06:07:43|edward_stoneuk|RCD|The Recreational Craft Directive is European Union legislation not just the UK. My understanding that it is not applicable to visiting boats from outside of the Union only those, with some exceptions sold within it. It is nothing to do with the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency requirements. The RCD lists four categories of boats from those suitable for inland waters to those suitable for ocean travel and covers such things as stability, down flooding angle, strength of windows, instruction manuals etc, etc. The European Union bureaucracy continually generates Directives to keep us all safe from harm. In my work I deal with such Directives as: Low Voltage, Electro Magnetic Compatibility, Safety of Machinery, Explosive Atmospheres. If a product is covered by a Directive then it has to have a CE label on it and comply with the relevant directives. Self-built boats do not need to comply unless they are sold within five years. A self-builder that I know who designed his own boat said that it cost him £4,000 in documents and calculations in order to comply. He used a naval architect to do his calculations for him. When I asked him why he had bothered he said so that he could sell the plans. When I started thinking about building a metal boat I contacted many boat designers such as Tom Colvin, Ted Brewer, Bruce Roberts, George Buehler, Tom McNaughton, and Jay Benford. Some of them, when asked if their boats were RCD compliant were quite dismissive of government regulations of all kinds. The problem in building a non-compliant boat is that if one dies or is incapacitated then it cannot be sold within five years. Regards, Ted| 5665|5638|2004-09-27 06:18:42|jim dorey|Re: Strain for design and FEA|On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:42:15 -0000, robertgainer wrote: > David, > Everything within the quotation marks is the link including the > spaces. > > "www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2002/17th -4- Safety factors in > composite yacht structures.pdf" > > > "www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/1994/Load measurements on the 9.4 m > sailing yacht - Sail Lab.pdf" > > I tried copy and paste to my browser and removed the quotation marks > and it worked for me. I don't know why the mailing list changes the > link, but I guess it does. > All the best, > Robert Gainer when posting a link that has spaces you should replace the spaces with %20. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5666|22|2004-09-27 09:37:54|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /LP36-05A.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 36'Origami "Whitehead" ctd. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/LP36-05A.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 5667|22|2004-09-27 11:29:32|ben_azo|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Superb Rendering for " Whitehead 36" I am impressed , is it indiscreet to ask the names of the programs you used : to develop this boat for Origami building and the rendering program. Does a plating & cutting file comes with the plans ? Please give us some more : specs , accomodation , options Thanks Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /LP36-01A.jpg > Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : Double Ender" Whitehead" for origami steel construction > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/LP36-01A.jpg > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > yvesmariedetanton | 5668|5594|2004-09-27 13:40:47|Richard Till|Re: Engine placement?|Brent, I would have to agree that the controls are a bit more cumbersome with the engine in My Island being down in the keel. The exhaust is really short and simple since it exits underwater next to the engine--tests so far show this system to work well and I am wide open to constuctive crtiticism on the experiment. I pulled the whole motor and split the transmission on a sunday morning to work out modifications on the drive plate. By the end of the year tests should be complete. The VW diesel is not an ideal engine but it is affordable and parts are readily available at realistic prices. Venting may turn out to be the greatest challenge here. The boat seems to balance well with the motor forward and down and access to the stern tube/seal/transmission could not be better. rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine placement? >Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:33:55 -0000 > >The engine position just under the front end of the cockpit has >worked out best for the 36. Having the prop at the aft end of the >skeg makes it visible and easily reachable from the dinghy . It also >gives a good blast of propwash directly on the rudder , giving good >control from a dead stop.The engine position gives total access to >the engine if you make all the side panels removeable. It lets you >put a vent and fan , blowing engine air out of the accommodation and >into the front end of cockpit. It enables you to use direct rod >linkages for engine controls, eliminating the weaknesses of more >complex controls. It makes for a short exhuast pipe, and skeg cooling >pipes. > With the fin keelers, some people have put their engines in the >keel with the prop at the back end of the keel. This made for a much >quieter engine, but the exhuast was long and control from a dead stop >was minimal as the effect of the propwash on the rudder was far less. >It was impossible to access the prop without drying out or >diving.Engine controls also become far more complex.Haviong the >weight further foreward was an advantage, but tankage in the single >keel was greatly reduced.Access under the engine and sterntube was >also greatly reduced. > Brent > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" >wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Where to place the engine in the boat? > > Many of the past posts have dealt with what kind of engine and > > exaust. But from what I have seen, not "where". So... > > > > I am talking principly about boats of less than 40' with an aft > > cockpit. Boats in the 40'+ range frequently have central cockpits > > and enough space for a seperate engine room. > > > > Typically engines are placed aft, near or under the cockpit. > > Sometimes the engine is placed amidship. > > The aft placement leaves more unobstruced space in the accomodation > > part of the boat. But this location might make access to the > > engine and shaft log more difficult. An aft location also means the > > weight is farther aft. > > > > Midship placement means better weight distribution and better >access. > > But the penalties are obstruction of the interior. This can to >some > > extent be overcome by the fact that the engine cover can also > > function as the salon table. Other possible problems are a longer >run > > for the exhaust system. Since it seems that most people advocate a > > dry exhaust would the longer run be a problem. > > > > In the photo files there is a fine example of a midship mounted > > engine in "My Island". "My Island" is a fin keel boat with the prop > > shaft coming out the trailing edge of the keel. Certainly this > > concept provides excellent protection for the prop. But with the > > disadvantage of not being able to see or service the prop unless >one > > goes into the water or hauls the boat. Possibly going on the "hard" > > with support legs is another option if sufficient tidal range and a > > secure location are available. With twin keels this becomes an >easier > > proposition. But the protection offered by the keel is gone. It >would > > be possible with a metal boat to provide a strong support for the > > shaft and some form of guard for the prop to reduce the risk of > > fouling the prop. > > > > Engine noise is another consideration. In small vessels escaping >the > > noise is almost impossible although with a good installation the > > effects can be minimized. > > I like quarter berths at sea. With an aft mounted engine having its > > heat and noise right next to the sleeping area are not ideal. > > This is especially true in the tropics. > > > > My personal preference would be a midship engine, twin keel. > > Having built and worked on many boats over the years I like good >and > > easy access to any and all systems installed. I like the idea of > > centralizing the weight. For the interior layout that I prefer this > > location does not present an unnecessary intrusion. > > > > What are the reasons others who are building have chosen for their > > engine location? I am sure I have not listed many of the other > > possible > > reasons for a preference of aft or midship engine location. > > > > So your ideas, thoughts, opinions? > > > > Take care, > > Fred > > > > PS Some other thoughts. > > Pros and cons of using a CVJ in the drive train. > > Using a PTO(power take off) shaft forward of the engine to run >things > > like big alternators, compressors, etc. > _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft� SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5669|5650|2004-09-27 14:28:25|brentswain38|Re: double enders|Chine end knuckles on a single chine hull are underwater and out of sight. They have no measurable effect on performance . The can be minimised by scoring the plate halfway thru ,about 6 inches beyond the end of the seam , and by putting a heavy weld on the first six inches of chine, inside and out as soon as possible ,when pulling the hull together.If you already have a knuckle, you can score the plate after assembly , anytime before painting and tap the score mark from the inside with a sledge hammer , being carefull not to leave hammer marks , until the knuckle is almost invisible. Weld the score mark up after you have it looking good. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Waalkes" wrote: > Ben, I like your thinking, I also have been dreaming and like the looks and results from a double ender. I wonder if one were to use multiple darts would the knuckles would be less apparent? I sailed on a friends 30' Fisher motor sailer in the 70's bringing her from Seattle to Petersburg Ak. with her pilot hse and Volvo we were warm and dry not like a 32' Westsail that made the same trip. The high bullwarks center pilot house and interior layout gave her enough room so my friend, wife, 5 kids under 9, oh yes one large black dog lived aboard one winter. John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5670|5651|2004-09-27 14:31:48|brentswain38|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|I've seen some pretty flaky boats planing sea voyages. However there is no justification for any kind of inspections for boats or skippers which have already crossed oceans. That would be personal empire building by bureacrats. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Yes, I don't expect steel to work as a material choice. Still, I am playing with rather unconventional hull designs and, though probably a venture which may well prove fruitless, I think it to be a valuable endeavour, if only to prove to myself that it cannot be done. Who knows, maybe the result will prove to be viable with aluminum. As my next offshore adventure will not be for 6 to 9 years, and any future construction plans will be taking place after my subsequent travel to my home-away-from-home, in the Philippines, I can not foresee a better way to amuse myself in the near future. > > Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr wrote:"> I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process should take some time and could very well prove to be unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship building, for his analysis." > > A couple quick thoughts on steel trimarans. I would seriously doubt that you would find any information steel trimarans. Trimarans are extremely weight sensitive. Much of a multi-hull's safety comes from keeping its weight light enough that the energy of the wind can be disbursed as acceleration rather than heeling. Of the common boat building materials only ferro-cement does worse than steel on a strength to weight basis. Aluminum, composites and various forms of wood construction are much more suitable to trimaran construction. Because of their extremely narrow hulls trimarans are very adaptable to 'tortured' techniques in any of these three materials which are closely akin to origami construction techniques, equally as fast and probably less expensive than steel for such narrow hull forms. > > With regards to the New Zealand safety inspections, an auditor report after two years showed a somewhere between a 30% and 40% decrease in the number of rescues that were required. It also indicated a drop in minor calls for help and a higher success rate in the cases where rescue was necessary. I thought taht sounded like a pretty dramatic set of results. NZ claims that the inspection program actually costs them more money to operate than the result of the inspection fees (which originally were higher) but that the reatly reduced number of rescues way more than offsets the cost of the inspection program. That said, I know that they were getting a lot of international flack so I don't know if the program is still in place. > > Respectfully, > Jeff > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5671|5168|2004-09-27 14:40:59|brentswain38|Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents|Ken used the patterns for my 36 footer and scaled them up. That boat is in Frisco now, Mexico bound. The method has been standard sheet metal work for as long s sheet metal has ben around. I'm sure ancient egyptians used the same method of cut and pull the edges together. I met Gary Curtis in the mid 80's along with Bruce Cope who has built many aluminiuim boats and worked on the America's cup boats in Perth. Bruce told us of hundreds of small aluminium powerboats built in the 60's using origami techniques ,many years before the Swedes applied for the patent that Gary was dealing with . The licensing agreement that Gary was dealing with was both invalid and a violation of antitrust laws. Have you found any easy solutions to the aluminium antifouling dilemma? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > parasites? > > Inspiration for our first boat came from an article written by Gary Curtis > in a popular sailing magazine almost 20 years ago, in which he described the > process, provided a 2-chine pattern, along with pictures of a 40 foot steel > boat he was folding under license from a Swedish(?) company. This can be > confirmed by looking at our first boat, which is 2-chined, not single > chined. > > The only case I know of that might fit is what was told to us by Ken Splett. > Ken is a very experienced boat builder. He told us that he built the first > 40, and drew the patterns. His claim was that the patterns were taken from > him. If true - and we have no idea if Ken's claim is true - then under the > Canadian Copyright Act, Ken may own the rights to the 40's, and be due 100% > of the profits. Again, we don't know what the facts are. Ken has > demonstrated in previous boats the skill to have produced the patterns, but > also he could be in error. > > We have never claimed to have invented the process. It could well be that > all who make such claims are not being factual, that the process was > developed in Europe many years ago. If we have done anything original, it > is to create a series of more modern hull forms, more accurate patterns, > added designs for both alloy and steel, and have added a 3rd chine to > support the bilge keels. Brent has chosen to criticize this > work, and thus has opened his own work to criticism. > > Criticism is a vital and important part of improving any human endeavor. > Be it peer-review in science, or opposition parties in government. If you > prohibit criticism you have tyranny and stagnation. We welcome reasoned > criticism as a means of improving our own designs. Any design that cannot > survive criticism doesn't belong offshore. > > What we do not welcome is the name calling that goes on in this group by > people that disagree with "controversial" positions. Even if it does > improve our business, it is not good for the group, and those that resort to > insulting remarks do this group no favors. As was brutally shown in the > past century, if we limit free speech to appease those that resort to > insults, then there is no free speech. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:57 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > > > > Transverse stiffening does have it's place, to stiffen keels and > > skegs, not randomly spaced throughout the boat in the wooden boat > > tradition, where they serve no usefull structural purpose whatever. > > They were invented to deal with the fact that wood has strength in > > one direction only and is not a homogenous material. When steel > > arrived on the scene as a boatbuilding material they simply colied > > what they knew , wooden boatbuilding, without questioning the need > > for all those bits and pieces .Putting them back in represents a > > giant step backwards. > > The story about buses in Spain is an example of how much > > improvement we can make in working with metal if we think outside the > > box and not get bogged down in jusifying the mistakes of the past.The > > huge potential of metal as a material for building anything has > > barely been tapped. > > Colvin estimates 1,000 hours to put to gether a 40 ft shell, a job > > I can do in less than 100 hours. If I had your "lets cling to the > > past" attitude, we would all still be setting up frames and doing > > huge amounts of unneccesary work to produce an inferior product. > > In this ,as in any other business, there is never any shortage of > > parasites who would benefit from the progress someone else has made, > > while remaining critical of the one who taught him. One guy named > > Gunter Richtler, who I taught to build origami boats ,later claimed > > to have invented the proccess himself. I put you in the same category. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Hi Brent, as always I get a chuckle reading your email. As with > > strength > >> versus stiffness, your comments about navigation apply more to > > yourself. We > >> routinely sail in areas or coral, many of which appear > > as "unsurveyed", or > >> "last surveyed 18xx" on the charts, often in areas of very poor > > visibility. > >> Haven't yet lost a boat, touch wood. > >> > >> My understanding of the rules is that plastic thru-hulls are > > permitted, not > >> required - and only if they have a specific strength. Monel is not > > subject > >> to crevice corrosion underwater as with 300 series stainless, and > > doesn't > >> rot the wood the way rust does, but aren't we off topic talking > > about wooden > >> boats? > >> > >> Why, given your opposition to transverse framing in boats, did you > > add > >> framing to the skeg and bilge keels? (and to the keel if you > > consider the > >> transverse tank members). I was told it was because there had been > > problems > >> with the appendages moving around. Not that the metal broke, > > rather flexed > >> enough to cause problems. If frames are not required, then why add > > them? > >> It doesn't make sense given that you have said they are not > > required. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "brentswain38" > >> To: > >> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:22 PM > >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> > >> > >> > The need to carry the load on keels from the two strong points , > > the > >> > chine and centrline or tanktop and to spread out the load of the > > skeg > >> > was self evident and not the result of failures. > >> > Jack's engine mouints and Mungo's keels are all the structural > >> > failures that I'm aware of . > >> > Gary Curtis was using plastic thru hulls and valves in steel > >> > boats ,in order to comply with ABS rules. So much for their > >> > credibility. > >> > LLoyds requires stainless keelbolts on wooden boats now, even tho > >> > that leads to rapid crevice corrosion in the bolts. So much for > > their > >> > credibility. > >> > Given all the reefs you have bashed , I hope yopur judgement in > >> > design matters exceeds your navigation skills.I'm beginning to > > have > >> > my doubts. > >> > Brent > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> All offshore boats have two basic design requirements. The > > ability > >> > to > >> >> survive a grounding, and the ability to survive a capsize. The > >> > Bones has > >> >> wrecked so many reefs and coral heads over the years that I have > >> > long lost > >> >> count. The rig is stout enough to take a capsize. Double > >> > spreader, keel > >> >> stepped, oversized section, but touch wood I've never had that > >> > pleasure. > >> >> However, as has been said many times by others, stories of > > success > >> > prove > >> >> nothing. The only things that have meaning are the failures. > >> >> > >> >> Brent, as I recall it was you that said that no frames were > >> > required in any > >> >> metal boat under 65 feet. We are not discussing the number > >> >> of frames, except for the number 0. As I understand it, origami > >> > boats were > >> >> originally built with no frames, but now have frames supporting > > the > >> > bilge > >> >> keels and flangeless frames (webs) supporting the skeg. This is > >> > consistent > >> >> with what I have heard, that you have experienced failures and > >> > found it > >> >> necessary to add framing to the boats. Perhaps you would list > > for > >> > the group > >> >> all the failures that you are aware of that have occurred in > >> > origami boats. > >> >> As Silas noted, discussing failures is an important part of > >> > avoiding them. > >> >> > >> >> I had a good laugh over your statement "The failure to understand > >> > the > >> >> geometric principles of using shape for stiffness shows a lack of > >> >> understanding in the individual, not a shortcoming in the > > method." > >> > As I > >> >> recall you are the one that said doubling the width of an > >> > attachment makes > >> >> it 8 times stronger. Many others have already posted to point > > out > >> > where the > >> >> lack of understanding lies - you are confusing stiffness and > >> > strength. > >> >> Doubling the width makes an attachment 8 times stiffer, as a > > result > >> > of its > >> >> moments of inertia, but only 2 times stronger because of its > >> > geometry. > >> >> > >> >> Sort of like the airplane wing noted in another posting, making > > the > >> >> attachment wider makes it stiffer faster than it makes it > > stronger, > >> > which > >> >> can result in unexpected failures, because it concentrates the > >> > forces. For > >> >> this reason, doubling the width of an attachment makes it only 2 > >> > times > >> >> stronger AT BEST. The increased stiffness may well make it fail > >> > sooner than > >> >> expected. > >> >> > >> >> Origami boats are not frameless. The construction is frameless, > >> > not the > >> >> boats. Not the BS designs, not ours. They all have frames. As > > a > >> > result, > >> >> the boats can make use of existing scantlings for framed > >> > construction, to > >> >> select longitudinal and transverse framing appropriate for > > origami, > >> > without > >> >> relying on guesswork. This allows new designs to be quickly > >> > adapted to > >> >> origami, and provides a quick check for existing boats to see how > >> > their > >> >> strength compares with other metal boats. > >> >> > >> >> ABS readily admits that their scantlings for metal construction > >> > result in > >> >> much stronger boats than their scantlings for FG. This is done > > on > >> > purpose, > >> >> because when people buy metal boats they expect them to be much > >> > stronger > >> >> than FG. Metal boats are routinely expected to be able to take a > >> > grounding > >> >> and survive. This proves them stronger than FG, but not as > > strong > >> > as other > >> >> metal boats. > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> > >> >> ps: I saw in another posting confusion over the FEA analysis on > >> > our web > >> >> site. The scale in each drawing is different. You cannot > > compare > >> > one > >> >> drawing to another by color alone, you must read the scale on > > each > >> > drawing. > >> >> From this you will see that the first example has a maximum > > stress > >> > of 10,500 > >> >> PSI, while the last example has a maximum stress of 1275 PSI - > > an 8 > >> > fold > >> >> reduction for the same skeg loads. In other words, the last > > example > >> >> (framed) could take (approximately) 8 times the load of the first > >> > example > >> >> (frameless) before failure. > >> >> > >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "brentswain38" > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:57 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > Many metal boats have been built for years using traditional > >> >> > temporary transverse frames, which were removed after > > costruction, > >> >> > with no adverse effects. These boats are all well proven and > > non > >> > that > >> >> > I've heard of has suffered any negative consequences from lack > > of > >> >> > transverse frames, despite the practise having been around for > >> > many > >> >> > decades.The failure to understand the geometric principles of > >> > using > >> >> > shape for stiffness shows a lack of understanding in the > >> > individual, > >> >> > not a shortcomming in the method. > >> >> > With engine mounts the important thing is to use the inherand > >> >> > stiffness of the centreline for rigidity and resistance to > > metal > >> >> > fatigue ,and to spread the stresses out as far from the > >> > centreline as > >> >> > possible, far more important in aluminium, which is many times > >> > more > >> >> > prone to metal fatigue.Whatever size engine you use, makeing > > it > >> > as > >> >> > solid as possible will not only eliminate metal fatigue > > worries, > >> > but > >> >> > it will be much quieter and more vibration free. > >> >> > I've also heard of super soft Yanmar style engine mounts all > >> >> > sheering at once ,leaving the engine rattling around in the > > hull, > >> >> > which is why you should avoid any rubber mounts which rely > > soly on > >> >> > rubber to hold the engine in place. > >> >> > I believe that the torture tests that origami boats have been > >> > thru > >> >> > contitute a far more accurate and realistic test of their > >> > scantlings. > >> >> > So tell us again Greg, what such torture tests have your > > designs > >> >> > been thru? > >> >> > Brent > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> >> Jack was indeed lucky the engine didn't let go offshore. Both > >> >> > mounts would > >> >> >> have been weakened by fatigue, not just the one that broke. > > In a > >> >> > seaway, if > >> >> >> one had let go, the other may well have followed. Nothing > > like a > >> >> > 500 lb > >> >> >> engine rolling around inside in a seaway to spoil the day. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The engine mounts on Island Breeze echo the same message that > > has > >> >> > been > >> >> >> posted many times on this site. Engine mounts are > > attachments, > >> >> > similar to > >> >> >> the keel and skeg. They are two longitudinal pieces of metal > >> >> > mounted at > >> >> >> near right angles to the to the skin, subject to load. And, > > like > >> >> > the other > >> >> >> attachments, without adequate transverse framing, they are > >> > subject > >> >> > to > >> >> >> fatigue and failure without warning. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The idea of building metal boats with lighter scantlings than > > is > >> >> > standard is > >> >> >> nothing original in origami. It has been tried any times, and > >> > when > >> >> > the > >> >> >> boats are pressed hard, and then rigorously examined > > afterwards, > >> >> > they > >> >> >> routinely show signs of premature fatigue. Thus, the > > scantlings > >> >> > for ABS and > >> >> >> similar have a significant reserve for fatigue. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Have the scantlings for origami been examined in this way for > >> >> > fatigue? Has > >> >> >> the metal been tested for fatigue? If not, they cannot be > >> >> > considered > >> >> >> proven, as they may fail tomorrow, just like Jack's engine > > mount. > >> >> > This > >> >> >> makes the scantlings experimental, as John noted. I can't see > >> > any > >> >> > reason to > >> >> >> build using experimental scantlings when there are lots of > > proven > >> >> > scantlings > >> >> >> for metal construction. Why make origami boats to lesser > >> >> > scantlings than is > >> >> >> standard in other metal boats, when it takes very little > > extra to > >> >> > make them > >> >> >> as strong as called for in ABS or any other standard? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: "brentswain38" > >> >> >> To: > >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 3:58 PM > >> >> >> Subject: Re: Fw: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > When Island Breeze returned form her circumnavigation I > > noticed > >> >> > that > >> >> >> > her engine mounts were simply welded to the hull plate ten > >> > inches > >> >> >> > either side of the centreline with no transverse members > >> >> > involved. I > >> >> >> > warned Jack that he'd been lucky it hadn't broken from metal > >> >> > fatigue > >> >> >> > and he said" It got me around the world in seven year > >> >> >> > circumnavigation so it must be strong enough." It broke > > shortly > >> >> >> > after . > >> >> >> > The success of origami boats proves that most fully framed > >> > small > >> >> >> > steel boats are grossly overframed, that such framing is and > >> >> > always > >> >> >> > was a mistake, and that it is totally unneccessary ,and in > > many > >> >> > cases > >> >> >> > a structural disadvantage. The fact that they have been > >> > repeating > >> >> >> > this mistake for so long doesn't make it right ,any more > > than > >> >> >> > beieving the world was flat for so long made it true. > >> >> >> > Brent Swain > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> >> >> Silas, my apologies for not making the connection. I > > remember > >> >> > your > >> >> >> > visit now that you have brought it back to mind. We had > > dinner > >> >> > with > >> >> >> > Natchez a day or two before they left Tonga for NZ, and > >> > remember > >> >> > well > >> >> >> > discussing steel hulls, HF radios and EPIRBS that evening. > >> > They > >> >> > were > >> >> >> > without an HF, but did have an EPIRB. What we didn't know > > was > >> >> > that > >> >> >> > there was no EPIRB coverage in that part of the world a the > >> > time. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Silas is correct. Discussion of mistakes and failures is > > one > >> > of > >> >> >> > the most important ways to avoid them. If we simply deny > > them, > >> >> > then > >> >> >> > we are doomed to repeat them. This discussion started some > >> > time > >> >> > ago > >> >> >> > revolving around the question of whether origami boat > > required > >> >> >> > framing. We have heard lots of anecdotal evidence of > > success, > >> >> > but no > >> >> >> > one asked what failures there had been. Not simply loses, > >> > which > >> >> > are > >> >> >> > often unresolved when they occur offshore, but also failures > >> > such > >> >> >> > as "Island Breeze". If we simply discuss the "good news", > > our > >> >> > view > >> >> >> > of origami is biased. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> For my part I think origami is a great concept. I also > > think > >> >> > that > >> >> >> > assuming the we can simply leave the framing out of a metal > >> > boat > >> >> >> > because it has a slightly different hull shape is a > > dangerous > >> > idea > >> >> >> > for anyone taking a boat offshore. There is nothing > > inherently > >> >> >> > unique in the shape of an origami boat to suggest framing is > >> > not > >> >> >> > required, and there is a large body of marine engineers that > >> > say > >> >> >> > framing is required if we are to make boats both light and > >> > strong. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Take a simple example. A stern tube led through a skeg. > > The > >> >> >> > stress examples on our website show how low loads in the > > skeg > >> >> > lead to > >> >> >> > high loads in the hull without framing. With some geometry > > it > >> >> > looks > >> >> >> > like even with a low aspect ratio skeg and rudder, you get > >> > about > >> >> >> > 10,000 PSI stress in the hull for every 1 PSI of water > >> > pressure on > >> >> >> > the skeg and rudder. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Without adequate framing, the skeg is going to move around > >> > from > >> >> >> > side loading alone. This is going to put the engine out of > >> >> >> > alignment, leading to vibration, and could lead to failure > > of > >> > the > >> >> >> > stern tube, drive train, or hull plating. Perhaps this is > >> > part of > >> >> >> > what happened with "Island Breeze". Hit something with the > >> > skeg, > >> >> > and > >> >> >> > if the framing doesn't prevent the skeg from moving, you > > could > >> >> > well > >> >> >> > lose the use of the engine if the stern tube moves far > > enough. > >> >> > Thus > >> >> >> > the rational to support the skeg and engine on transverse > >> > framing, > >> >> >> > with a girder system between. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I've been impressed with the MDT6 predictions of stress in > >> > skegs. > >> >> >> > If you look at the first example, a skeg without framing: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> You will notice that the maximum stress is predicted to > > lie a > >> >> > small > >> >> >> > distance away from the point of attachment, consistent with > > the > >> >> >> > failures reported by Brent and Gerd. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> >> From: silascrosby > >> >> >> >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 5:36 PM > >> >> >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Failures and Accidents > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Several postings have mentioned 'failures'. I find the > > whole > >> >> >> >> discussion of so-called failures very enlightening. The > >> >> >> >> mountaineering community discusses 'accidents' to try to > >> > avoid > >> >> >> >> repetition. Brent and I and other local sailors often re- > >> > hash > >> >> >> >> mishaps-ours and others'. The only Brentboat loss I have > >> > heard > >> >> > of > >> >> >> > is > >> >> >> >> that of the 'Mungo'(Despite the fact that this was > > hardly a > >> >> >> >> premature failure ,empirical changes were made to > > subsequent > >> >> >> >> Brentboats) . I think it was mentioned on this site in > > the > >> >> >> >> past. 'Viski' of Nanaimo was certainly put to the test > > on a > >> >> >> > number > >> >> >> >> of occasions on its cicumnavigation.Those incidents are > > only > >> >> >> >> humorous because the boat and crew survived,relatively > >> >> > unscathed. > >> >> >> >> When I met Greg Elliot( he may not remember) in 1990 > > in > >> >> >> > Suva,Fiji > >> >> >> >> I was on our Spencer 35 'Cor Leonis' with my wife and 11 > >> > month > >> >> >> > old > >> >> >> >> son aboard. We had sailed up from NZ and were on our way > >> > home > >> >> > to > >> >> >> > BC. > >> >> >> >> I spent a morning aboard Lazybones yakking about metal > >> > boats. > >> >> >> >> Unfortunately,at that same time our friends on 'Natchez' > > a > >> > 40' > >> >> >> >> plastic boat from Switzerland, had disappeared somewhere > >> >> > between > >> >> >> > NZ > >> >> >> >> and Fiji a few days ahead of us. Never seen again. > >> >> > Ship,container > >> >> >> > or > >> >> >> >> fire ? Who knows? It made me very keen on a metal boat. > >> >> >> >> Jack and Monica on 'Island Breeze' were anchored in the > > same > >> >> >> > harbour > >> >> >> >> but we had to wait to get to Comox to meet > >> > them.Their 'Island > >> >> >> >> Breeze' did eventually develop a hull crack near one of > > the > >> >> >> > engine > >> >> >> >> beds due to fatigue and ,I think, a missing trnaverse > > welded > >> >> >> > flange. > >> >> >> >> That was discussed a lot on the dock. The repair took an > >> > hour > >> >> > or > >> >> >> >> so.This was after Jack had sold the boat. > >> >> >> >> I am only a little ashamed to admit to some of the > > rocky > >> >> >> >> collisions we have had on the 'Silas Crosby' The boat was > >> >> >> > motoring > >> >> >> >> into Emily Carr Inlet to raft up with 'Bella Via'(Jack > > and > >> >> >> > Monica). > >> >> >> >> At 6 knots we went on the wrong side of the narrow > > cahannel > >> > and > >> >> >> > hit > >> >> >> >> an uncharted rock- uncharted but we had been forewarned - > >> >> > missed > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> >> keels and hit the hull just to port of the midline. > >> > Dented.OK. > >> >> >> >> We just now returned from another trip around Vancouver > >> > Island- > >> >> >> >> from our carving on the boardwalk at Hotsprings Cove we > > can > >> >> > tell > >> >> >> > it > >> >> >> >> was our 5th time around in this boat.We didn't hit > > anything > >> >> >> > except > >> >> >> >> warm swimming water and good sailing breezes on this > > trip! > >> >> >> >> Or the time near Winchelsea Is. under spinnaker at 6 > > knots > >> > we > >> >> > hit > >> >> >> > a > >> >> >> >> rock because I was too busy sailing to dig out the > > large - > >> > scale > >> >> >> >> chart. That caught the 3 '' bar on the front of the > >> > starboard > >> >> >> > keel > >> >> >> >> and stopped us and turned us 90degrees. Nobody hurt but > >> > lunch > >> >> > was > >> >> >> > on > >> >> >> >> the floor,jam-side down. > >> >> >> >> I would be very interested in other tales of > >> > disaster,real or > >> >> >> >> narrowly averted, and how they happened. In origami > > boats or > >> >> >> > others. > >> >> >> >> I'll bet Brent has lots of stories. Greg Janes ( who > >> > sometimes > >> >> > is > >> >> >> >> building an aluminum boat with some design help from the > >> >> > skipper > >> >> >> >> of 'Lazybones') must have many anecdotes although I > > guess he > >> >> >> > managed > >> >> >> >> to avoid the majority of the rocky bits on 'Candlewin' > >> >> >> >> cheers, Steve p.s. I had the chance to go sailing > > on 'Loon > >> > 3' > >> >> > in > >> >> >> >> 34knots of wind near Nuchatlitz. This is a 39'aluminum > >> > origami > >> >> >> > twin > >> >> >> >> keeler. I think the hull was built in Vancouver and Ian > > and > >> >> >> > Allison > >> >> >> >> spent 6 yrs building the rest in Calgary.What a great > > boat! > >> > We > >> >> >> > were > >> >> >> >> sailing 7.2 knots by gps and log, hard on the wind in > > good > >> > seas > >> >> >> > at > >> >> >> >> the outer entrance near Catala Island.Reefed down and > >> > ripping > >> >> >> >> along.Excellent sailing. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: > >> > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >> >> >> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> >> >> >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- --- > > --- > >> > --- > >> >> > --- > >> >> >> > ---------- > >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> >> >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> >> >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > >> > Terms > >> >> > of > >> >> >> > Service. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5672|5168|2004-09-27 14:47:40|brentswain38|Re: Origami History|Claes Lundstrom claimed to have invented origami boatbuilding decades after hundreds were built in Vancouver. He even got a patent on the proccess which turned out to be totally invalid due to the fact that it was public domain years before he even applied for the patent. That was the patent that Gary Curtis got sucked into initially. Lundstrom has some good looking designs in aluminium, but the wide sterns and lean bows make their directional stability and hull balance doubtful. Brent Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Greg, I was always looking for more info on the origami history. > I just remembered that there was a thread in boatdesign.net, where > Alex presented the then new yahoo-group. > > You will find there: > Brent: QUOTE "...In 1995 Ken Splett went to work for Gunter Richtler > when he was building small aluminium workboats. Ken scaled up a set > of plans for my 36 footer to 40 ft and built it for Richtler. They > called it the "Fastwater 40" I spent many long hours going over the > building proccess with Richtler and sold him a copy of a book I had > just written on the origami building proccess. > Later , while I was away cruising the South Pacific , Richtler ,in > articles in Cruising World and Pacific Yachting , claimed to have > invented the proccess on his own. The two magazines later published > corrections of the claim...." > > and also: > Ludesign: QUOTE "...I have designed about 50 such boats since the > mid seventies (using steel, aluminum, plastic sheets and plywood) > and have written a program being extremely well suited for designing > such hulls. > Check out www.touchcad.com > _________________ > Claes Lundstrom " > > Is Claes maybe around here, or anybody has contact to him? I had a > short look at his program, and that could really be quite > interesting, and if he has done so many boats, I am sure that there > must lots of intersting people around european origami... > > Also, I remember having seen Dr Seggers folded ply boats in the > seventies, see them at : http://www.dr-segger.de ... /it really > would take a German or an Austrian to include his title into his > domain ;-) > (The Seggers shapes are quite similar to the newer polish design > that somebody here dug up some months ago, at > http://www.zeglarstwo.3miasto.pl/projgrup/km1.html) > > Also I remember that there was talk about a WWII research of the > priciple? > > As for patents: > Anybody has details? > I think that trying to patent "folding hulls from sheet-material > with cuts in" might have a hard time to prove that that is an > original idea, but IANAL. What would remain is the design and > specific shape for any particular boat, which I think would fall > under the same copyright as any other design. > > Gerd > The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 5673|5594|2004-09-27 14:50:52|brentswain38|Re: Engine placement?|Underwater exhuasts work wonderfully on some engines and drum like hell on others. More cylindres seem to help a lot. If I were going that route on a new boat, I'd put a very thick doubler plate, maybe even half inch a foot in diameter around the exhuast pipe in the building stage to minimise drumming. It's the quietest exhuast arrangement possible. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Till" wrote: > Brent, I would have to agree that the controls are a bit more cumbersome > with the engine in My Island being down in the keel. The exhaust is really > short and simple since it exits underwater next to the engine-- tests so far > show this system to work well and I am wide open to constuctive crtiticism > on the experiment. I pulled the whole motor and split the transmission on > a sunday morning to work out modifications on the drive plate. By the end > of the year tests should be complete. The VW diesel is not an ideal engine > but it is affordable and parts are readily available at realistic prices. > Venting may turn out to be the greatest challenge here. The boat seems to > balance well with the motor forward and down and access to the stern > tube/seal/transmission could not be better. rt > > >From: "brentswain38" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine placement? > >Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:33:55 -0000 > > > >The engine position just under the front end of the cockpit has > >worked out best for the 36. Having the prop at the aft end of the > >skeg makes it visible and easily reachable from the dinghy . It also > >gives a good blast of propwash directly on the rudder , giving good > >control from a dead stop.The engine position gives total access to > >the engine if you make all the side panels removeable. It lets you > >put a vent and fan , blowing engine air out of the accommodation and > >into the front end of cockpit. It enables you to use direct rod > >linkages for engine controls, eliminating the weaknesses of more > >complex controls. It makes for a short exhuast pipe, and skeg cooling > >pipes. > > With the fin keelers, some people have put their engines in the > >keel with the prop at the back end of the keel. This made for a much > >quieter engine, but the exhuast was long and control from a dead stop > >was minimal as the effect of the propwash on the rudder was far less. > >It was impossible to access the prop without drying out or > >diving.Engine controls also become far more complex.Haviong the > >weight further foreward was an advantage, but tankage in the single > >keel was greatly reduced.Access under the engine and sterntube was > >also greatly reduced. > > Brent > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > >wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Where to place the engine in the boat? > > > Many of the past posts have dealt with what kind of engine and > > > exaust. But from what I have seen, not "where". So... > > > > > > I am talking principly about boats of less than 40' with an aft > > > cockpit. Boats in the 40'+ range frequently have central cockpits > > > and enough space for a seperate engine room. > > > > > > Typically engines are placed aft, near or under the cockpit. > > > Sometimes the engine is placed amidship. > > > The aft placement leaves more unobstruced space in the accomodation > > > part of the boat. But this location might make access to the > > > engine and shaft log more difficult. An aft location also means the > > > weight is farther aft. > > > > > > Midship placement means better weight distribution and better > >access. > > > But the penalties are obstruction of the interior. This can to > >some > > > extent be overcome by the fact that the engine cover can also > > > function as the salon table. Other possible problems are a longer > >run > > > for the exhaust system. Since it seems that most people advocate a > > > dry exhaust would the longer run be a problem. > > > > > > In the photo files there is a fine example of a midship mounted > > > engine in "My Island". "My Island" is a fin keel boat with the prop > > > shaft coming out the trailing edge of the keel. Certainly this > > > concept provides excellent protection for the prop. But with the > > > disadvantage of not being able to see or service the prop unless > >one > > > goes into the water or hauls the boat. Possibly going on the "hard" > > > with support legs is another option if sufficient tidal range and a > > > secure location are available. With twin keels this becomes an > >easier > > > proposition. But the protection offered by the keel is gone. It > >would > > > be possible with a metal boat to provide a strong support for the > > > shaft and some form of guard for the prop to reduce the risk of > > > fouling the prop. > > > > > > Engine noise is another consideration. In small vessels escaping > >the > > > noise is almost impossible although with a good installation the > > > effects can be minimized. > > > I like quarter berths at sea. With an aft mounted engine having its > > > heat and noise right next to the sleeping area are not ideal. > > > This is especially true in the tropics. > > > > > > My personal preference would be a midship engine, twin keel. > > > Having built and worked on many boats over the years I like good > >and > > > easy access to any and all systems installed. I like the idea of > > > centralizing the weight. For the interior layout that I prefer this > > > location does not present an unnecessary intrusion. > > > > > > What are the reasons others who are building have chosen for their > > > engine location? I am sure I have not listed many of the other > > > possible > > > reasons for a preference of aft or midship engine location. > > > > > > So your ideas, thoughts, opinions? > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred > > > > > > PS Some other thoughts. > > > Pros and cons of using a CVJ in the drive train. > > > Using a PTO(power take off) shaft forward of the engine to run > >things > > > like big alternators, compressors, etc. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen > Technology. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en- ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar ket_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. | 5674|5594|2004-09-27 14:56:17|richytill|Re: Engine placement?|Brent, further, as I have found out--the boat must be dried out to work on the prop. This is a real disadvantage. We did a simulation and having the motor further aft on this boat would put the stern a little low in the water--so i will have to live with the limited prop access. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Till" wrote: > Brent, I would have to agree that the controls are a bit more cumbersome > with the engine in My Island being down in the keel. The exhaust is really > short and simple since it exits underwater next to the engine-- tests so far > show this system to work well and I am wide open to constuctive crtiticism > on the experiment. I pulled the whole motor and split the transmission on > a sunday morning to work out modifications on the drive plate. By the end > of the year tests should be complete. The VW diesel is not an ideal engine > but it is affordable and parts are readily available at realistic prices. > Venting may turn out to be the greatest challenge here. The boat seems to > balance well with the motor forward and down and access to the stern > tube/seal/transmission could not be better. rt > > >From: "brentswain38" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine placement? > >Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:33:55 -0000 > > > >The engine position just under the front end of the cockpit has > >worked out best for the 36. Having the prop at the aft end of the > >skeg makes it visible and easily reachable from the dinghy . It also > >gives a good blast of propwash directly on the rudder , giving good > >control from a dead stop.The engine position gives total access to > >the engine if you make all the side panels removeable. It lets you > >put a vent and fan , blowing engine air out of the accommodation and > >into the front end of cockpit. It enables you to use direct rod > >linkages for engine controls, eliminating the weaknesses of more > >complex controls. It makes for a short exhuast pipe, and skeg cooling > >pipes. > > With the fin keelers, some people have put their engines in the > >keel with the prop at the back end of the keel. This made for a much > >quieter engine, but the exhuast was long and control from a dead stop > >was minimal as the effect of the propwash on the rudder was far less. > >It was impossible to access the prop without drying out or > >diving.Engine controls also become far more complex.Haviong the > >weight further foreward was an advantage, but tankage in the single > >keel was greatly reduced.Access under the engine and sterntube was > >also greatly reduced. > > Brent > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > >wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Where to place the engine in the boat? > > > Many of the past posts have dealt with what kind of engine and > > > exaust. But from what I have seen, not "where". So... > > > > > > I am talking principly about boats of less than 40' with an aft > > > cockpit. Boats in the 40'+ range frequently have central cockpits > > > and enough space for a seperate engine room. > > > > > > Typically engines are placed aft, near or under the cockpit. > > > Sometimes the engine is placed amidship. > > > The aft placement leaves more unobstruced space in the accomodation > > > part of the boat. But this location might make access to the > > > engine and shaft log more difficult. An aft location also means the > > > weight is farther aft. > > > > > > Midship placement means better weight distribution and better > >access. > > > But the penalties are obstruction of the interior. This can to > >some > > > extent be overcome by the fact that the engine cover can also > > > function as the salon table. Other possible problems are a longer > >run > > > for the exhaust system. Since it seems that most people advocate a > > > dry exhaust would the longer run be a problem. > > > > > > In the photo files there is a fine example of a midship mounted > > > engine in "My Island". "My Island" is a fin keel boat with the prop > > > shaft coming out the trailing edge of the keel. Certainly this > > > concept provides excellent protection for the prop. But with the > > > disadvantage of not being able to see or service the prop unless > >one > > > goes into the water or hauls the boat. Possibly going on the "hard" > > > with support legs is another option if sufficient tidal range and a > > > secure location are available. With twin keels this becomes an > >easier > > > proposition. But the protection offered by the keel is gone. It > >would > > > be possible with a metal boat to provide a strong support for the > > > shaft and some form of guard for the prop to reduce the risk of > > > fouling the prop. > > > > > > Engine noise is another consideration. In small vessels escaping > >the > > > noise is almost impossible although with a good installation the > > > effects can be minimized. > > > I like quarter berths at sea. With an aft mounted engine having its > > > heat and noise right next to the sleeping area are not ideal. > > > This is especially true in the tropics. > > > > > > My personal preference would be a midship engine, twin keel. > > > Having built and worked on many boats over the years I like good > >and > > > easy access to any and all systems installed. I like the idea of > > > centralizing the weight. For the interior layout that I prefer this > > > location does not present an unnecessary intrusion. > > > > > > What are the reasons others who are building have chosen for their > > > engine location? I am sure I have not listed many of the other > > > possible > > > reasons for a preference of aft or midship engine location. > > > > > > So your ideas, thoughts, opinions? > > > > > > Take care, > > > Fred > > > > > > PS Some other thoughts. > > > Pros and cons of using a CVJ in the drive train. > > > Using a PTO(power take off) shaft forward of the engine to run > >things > > > like big alternators, compressors, etc. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen > Technology. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en- ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar ket_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. | 5675|5594|2004-09-27 15:07:58|richytill|Re: Engine placement?|Brent, I welded a 1/4" doubler plate onto the chine doubler plate and a 1/2" gusset onto the pipe. The exhaust is 3 layers thick: 2 shd 40 316 ss pipes sleeved and the outer is galv. ms. The whole assembly is an inveted U, supported inboard at the motor side with a bracket between bulkheads and 67 Chev motor (simple--inexpensive)mounts for damping. The motor mounts make a huge difference to vibration and engine is 4 cyl. Most of the material for the exhaust was good scrap or low cost. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Brent, further, as I have found out--the boat must be dried out to > work on the prop. This is a real disadvantage. We did a simulation > and having the motor further aft on this boat would put the stern a > little low in the water--so i will have to live with the limited prop > access. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Till" > wrote: > > Brent, I would have to agree that the controls are a bit more > cumbersome > > with the engine in My Island being down in the keel. The exhaust > is really > > short and simple since it exits underwater next to the engine-- > tests so far > > show this system to work well and I am wide open to constuctive > crtiticism > > on the experiment. I pulled the whole motor and split the > transmission on > > a sunday morning to work out modifications on the drive plate. By > the end > > of the year tests should be complete. The VW diesel is not an > ideal engine > > but it is affordable and parts are readily available at realistic > prices. > > Venting may turn out to be the greatest challenge here. The boat > seems to > > balance well with the motor forward and down and access to the > stern > > tube/seal/transmission could not be better. rt > > > > >From: "brentswain38" > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine placement? > > >Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:33:55 -0000 > > > > > >The engine position just under the front end of the cockpit has > > >worked out best for the 36. Having the prop at the aft end of the > > >skeg makes it visible and easily reachable from the dinghy . It > also > > >gives a good blast of propwash directly on the rudder , giving good > > >control from a dead stop.The engine position gives total access to > > >the engine if you make all the side panels removeable. It lets you > > >put a vent and fan , blowing engine air out of the accommodation > and > > >into the front end of cockpit. It enables you to use direct rod > > >linkages for engine controls, eliminating the weaknesses of more > > >complex controls. It makes for a short exhuast pipe, and skeg > cooling > > >pipes. > > > With the fin keelers, some people have put their engines in the > > >keel with the prop at the back end of the keel. This made for a > much > > >quieter engine, but the exhuast was long and control from a dead > stop > > >was minimal as the effect of the propwash on the rudder was far > less. > > >It was impossible to access the prop without drying out or > > >diving.Engine controls also become far more complex.Haviong the > > >weight further foreward was an advantage, but tankage in the single > > >keel was greatly reduced.Access under the engine and sterntube was > > >also greatly reduced. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > >wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Where to place the engine in the boat? > > > > Many of the past posts have dealt with what kind of engine and > > > > exaust. But from what I have seen, not "where". So... > > > > > > > > I am talking principly about boats of less than 40' with an aft > > > > cockpit. Boats in the 40'+ range frequently have central > cockpits > > > > and enough space for a seperate engine room. > > > > > > > > Typically engines are placed aft, near or under the cockpit. > > > > Sometimes the engine is placed amidship. > > > > The aft placement leaves more unobstruced space in the > accomodation > > > > part of the boat. But this location might make access to the > > > > engine and shaft log more difficult. An aft location also means > the > > > > weight is farther aft. > > > > > > > > Midship placement means better weight distribution and better > > >access. > > > > But the penalties are obstruction of the interior. This can to > > >some > > > > extent be overcome by the fact that the engine cover can also > > > > function as the salon table. Other possible problems are a > longer > > >run > > > > for the exhaust system. Since it seems that most people > advocate a > > > > dry exhaust would the longer run be a problem. > > > > > > > > In the photo files there is a fine example of a midship mounted > > > > engine in "My Island". "My Island" is a fin keel boat with the > prop > > > > shaft coming out the trailing edge of the keel. Certainly this > > > > concept provides excellent protection for the prop. But with the > > > > disadvantage of not being able to see or service the prop unless > > >one > > > > goes into the water or hauls the boat. Possibly going on > the "hard" > > > > with support legs is another option if sufficient tidal range > and a > > > > secure location are available. With twin keels this becomes an > > >easier > > > > proposition. But the protection offered by the keel is gone. It > > >would > > > > be possible with a metal boat to provide a strong support for > the > > > > shaft and some form of guard for the prop to reduce the risk of > > > > fouling the prop. > > > > > > > > Engine noise is another consideration. In small vessels escaping > > >the > > > > noise is almost impossible although with a good installation the > > > > effects can be minimized. > > > > I like quarter berths at sea. With an aft mounted engine having > its > > > > heat and noise right next to the sleeping area are not ideal. > > > > This is especially true in the tropics. > > > > > > > > My personal preference would be a midship engine, twin keel. > > > > Having built and worked on many boats over the years I like good > > >and > > > > easy access to any and all systems installed. I like the idea of > > > > centralizing the weight. For the interior layout that I prefer > this > > > > location does not present an unnecessary intrusion. > > > > > > > > What are the reasons others who are building have chosen for > their > > > > engine location? I am sure I have not listed many of the other > > > > possible > > > > reasons for a preference of aft or midship engine location. > > > > > > > > So your ideas, thoughts, opinions? > > > > > > > > Take care, > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > PS Some other thoughts. > > > > Pros and cons of using a CVJ in the drive train. > > > > Using a PTO(power take off) shaft forward of the engine to run > > >things > > > > like big alternators, compressors, etc. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® > SmartScreen > > Technology. > > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en- > ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar > ket_MSNIS_Taglines > > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get > the > > first two months FREE*. | 5676|5618|2004-09-27 16:54:35|fmichael graham|Re: Cutting steel|Jim: Sounds like your sold on the process. Any guesses as to how fast - inches per minute? Thanks, Mike jim_both wrote: "I cut most of steel (plate and frames) for the hull of my Roberts 345 using tungsten-tipped steel-cutting blades..." --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5677|5618|2004-09-27 17:22:02|jim_both|Re: Cutting steel|Mike; Similar to cutting hardwood. jimthom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Jim: > Sounds like your sold on the process. Any guesses as to how fast - inches per minute? > Thanks, > Mike | 5678|22|2004-09-27 18:03:31|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /SteelCA12.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : double-ended pilothouse pic You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/SteelCA12.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 5679|5635|2004-09-27 18:19:39|sae140|Re: Digest Number 953|I'm really shocked to hear of foreign boats being impounded/ fined for contravening the Recreational Craft Directive, as it only applies to boats commercially built within the EU (and home-built craft sold within 5 years of construction, so as to block that obvious loophole) but does not apply to boats originating from outside the EU, where quite clearly EU legislation does not apply, nor to any boat built anywhere before the Directive was introduced. Is there any chance that the fines referred to were levied in regard of a boat from outside the EU being sold here, without being declared for VAT (Value Added Tax, sometime known as Visciously Added Tax) assessment ? VAT rules for importing/selling non-EU boats are complex and penalties for tax evasion are severe. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Robert I have since found that the directive does not apply to > homebuilt as long as they are not sold within five years of first > construction and the advice is you should comply with the directive for > insurance and resale reasons however turn up in any one of thousands of us > boats which are factory built and have not got the approval and you will > lose 5000.00 or boat regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Gainer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 12:47 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Digest Number 953 > > > > > > Re: insulation and design > > > > Denis said, > > "and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft > > directive) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg > > for > > turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements" > > > > > > Denis, > > Is the RCD the same thing as British MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) > > code? There is an editorial by Dudley Dawson in this months "Professional > > Boat Builder" on page 192 about the change in the MCA and its very > > deleterious effect on the larger boats. The code was very loose before and > > left the details up to the designer while setting goals and standards. Now > > the new code is being rigorously enforced and details all aspects of the > > design and construction in the same way a passenger ship is regulated. > > From > > the sound of it trouble is on the way. > > All the best, > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5680|1761|2004-09-27 18:25:36|sae140|Re: Electrolysis|Hi Fred Firstly - thanks for describing the situation at Newport harbour so well. Sounds like a pretty grim scenario. I think it would be a fool or a very brave man who would take issue with you about the underlying causes of Newport harbour being so electrically 'hot', so I wouldn't even consider doing that here .... but what I'm having difficulty with is getting my head around exactly *how* electrolytic corrosion of boat hulls is happening. My understanding of electrolytic corrosion is that when a voltage difference occurs across metal or metals, then if an external current is allowed to flow, then a migration of ions will occur, effectively dissolving away the metal at the donor (or anodic) surface. The essence of this mechanism is a localised difference in galvanic potential (i.e. a voltage), such as that which can be measured when dissimilar metals are fixed together and then immersed in seawater. I have no difficulty with this concept, as there exists a closed circuit around which current will flow. However, when a boat is moored over an area of spoil ground, even though there may be huge amounts of electro-chemical decomposition taking place a few feet below the keel - how does this affect our hull, when our hull is not part of any obvious electrical circuit involving a difference in potential around which a destructive current may flow ? Likewise, if there is earth leakage onshore - one would assume that the leakage current would be making it's way back to the electrical generator, or to the nearest accessible point on the shore-side distribution grid, rather than making it's way seawards out towards boats moored on the water's surface. Unless of course these boats are electrically connected in some way to become part of the circuit. Shore power connections are the obvious culprits here, but I can also see that anchoring with chain could also cause a metal boat to be electrically connected across a voltage potential, which might possibly exist between the surface and the contaminated bottom if electrical leakage current was present in the area. In the absence of a shore cable and/or an anchor chain to the sea bed - how is this destructive electrolysis occurring ? If someone could give me a hand understanding this, it would be appreciated. Colin PS: in terms of an economic 'fix' for the earth leakage problem, in Europe we favour the use of RCD's (Residual Current Devices, also known as ELCB's - Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers), which monitor the positive and negative swings of the 240V sine-wave. Any difference in excess of 20mA for a few milliseconds causes the circuit breaker to trip. They cost anything betwen £20 and £60 depending on capacity. They're also highly recommended for using 240V power tools outdoors, as they virtually eliminate the risk of electrocution. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi Colin, > > Curing the problem at the source would require a complete > sanitization of the harbor. Newport harbor was (mis)used extensively > during WWII. The bottom is foul with remants of decomposing detrius > remaining from that era. Add to this the fact that the west side of > the harbor is basically a long sand bar covered with houses from the > early 1900's to present day construction. Many of the older houses > have antiquated house wiring systems that leak electricity into the > ground through the grounding electrodes(ground rod). Of course the > ground is only a few feet above sea level so is well saturated with > saltwater. I am sure that the problem could be remediated by dredging > the harbor down to clean sand and eliminating all housing on the > penisula and all buildings on the mainland east of the harbor. The > fact that the an average house lot(very small) on the penisula is > worth $1,000,000+ USD and the commercial property on the mainland > side worth even more I do not think that the city or the now very > bankrupt state of California will ever do something of that nature. > > The electronic gizmos that Bartell manufacture are supposed to do > exactly what you recommend. They sense and reverse the electrical > currents that cause the electrolysis on boats. > > Take care, > Fred > PS At the time I was there it was easy to drop one probe from a volt > meter into the water and attach the other end to a shoreside > electrical ground and read 3 ~ 4 volts DC. > > > > I've never heard of anything so crazy (!!) If the harbour is > > so "hot", then surely the answer is for the boat-owners to get > > together to exert pressure on the authorities to cure the problem > at > > source, rather than to come up with such electronic gizmos, or > > collectively keep dissolving hundredweights of zinc into the water > > every year ? I can't believe all that zinc can be good for the sea- > > life. > > > > However, if you really must have gizmos:- rather than employ > > sacrifical zincs, the Forth Bridge in Scotland has it's underwater > > steel structures kept at an artificially small reversed voltage in > > order to prevent the unpainted metal from corroding. I see no > reason > > why similar protection couldn't be employed on ships/ steel yachts. > > > > Colin | 5681|5617|2004-09-27 18:29:45|sae140|Re: Metalizing Steel|Hi Fred isn't this the wrong way around ? If you 'tinned' a piece of bare steel with lead and then scratched it through to the steel, on immersion in seawater the steel would then be electrolytically sacrificed to the lead. A great pity, 'cause lead is so easy to work with. I've heard that flame-sprayed aluminium is currently being employed as the surface protection of choice for new North Sea offshore construction projects. Zinc wiping does sound interesting, especially as it could be applied to smooth steel (ground/ wire-brushed/ oiled and pickled etc) - dunno what flux is used ... (?) Cold galvanising by the use of a zinc-rich primer paint (typically in excess of 95% zinc) is another good method. Apparently it's not just stuck-on 'paint', but chemical changes actually occur at the interface between paint and steel. Ted Stone is the bloke to ask about this stuff. Regards Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > > Been reading previous posts. > One idea put forth was doing a zinc wash? Essentially using a large > propane torch and soldering(?) the fluxed steel surface with zinc. I > do not know offhand the cost of zinc so do not know if this is a > worthwhile or practical idea. > The question I have is could this be done with lead as well? > Lead is just below steel galvanically and tin, frequently found in > lead as a harding agent, is well below steel. Might this be easier > because of lower melting point and/or better adhesion? > > Take care, > Fred | 5682|1761|2004-09-27 20:33:55|fenixrises|Re: Electrolysis|Hi Colin, I would not class myself as an expert on the subject of electroysis. From what I understand there only needs to exist potential(voltage) in the water to cause electrolysis. With potential there can be current(amperage) flow. Saltwater provides the electrolite (conductor). If you have a wood or plastic boat and all the through hulls are bonded together then you can have a problem. Bonding is a common practice but not universal. Because electricity will usually always seek the shortest path a stray current can flow from cathode metal through the bonding system to the anode metal of a boat. This could be something as simple as two through hull fittings of slightly different alloy. If everything is working %100 perfect this means the anode is a nice big chunk of zinc. Some experts do not recommend bonding a boat, some do. On nonconductive boats the bonding system provides the conductor(seawater would also do this to an extent). I have never bonded any of my personal boats and would not do so. Of course a metal boat is one big conductor. Welded or securely bolted zincs on a metal boat are always recommended as far as I know. Principally to protect it from stray currents in port but also from galvanic electrolysis onboard. As for "Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers" I think the same thing here is called Ground Fault Circuit Interupter, more commonly GFCI or GFI. Circuit breakers of this type are readilly available and in fact required for certain types of installations. On a smaller scale standard electrical outlets(120v here) also have this function built into them. They can be used in place of standard outlets. Our National Electric Code (NEC) requires their use for outside outlets and inside outlets if within 24" of a water source, i.e. kitcken faucet. While Newport Harbor is an unusual case I am certain that there are similar situations worldwide. Even when very localized you can have a big problem. I you are docked next to a boat with a faulty electrical system your boat could be cooked off in short order. Take care, Fred "sae140" wrote: > Hi Fred > > Firstly - thanks for describing the situation at Newport harbour so > well. Sounds like a pretty grim scenario. > > I think it would be a fool or a very brave man who would take issue > with you about the underlying causes of Newport harbour being so > electrically 'hot', so I wouldn't even consider doing that here .... > but what I'm having difficulty with is getting my head around exactly > *how* electrolytic corrosion of boat hulls is happening. > > My understanding of electrolytic corrosion is that when a voltage > difference occurs across metal or metals, then if an external current > is allowed to flow, then a migration of ions will occur, effectively > dissolving away the metal at the donor (or anodic) surface. > The essence of this mechanism is a localised difference in galvanic > potential (i.e. a voltage), such as that which can be measured when > dissimilar metals are fixed together and then immersed in seawater. > I have no difficulty with this concept, as there exists a closed > circuit around which current will flow. > > However, when a boat is moored over an area of spoil ground, even > though there may be huge amounts of electro-chemical decomposition > taking place a few feet below the keel - how does this affect our > hull, when our hull is not part of any obvious electrical circuit > involving a difference in potential around which a destructive > current may flow ? > > Likewise, if there is earth leakage onshore - one would assume that > the leakage current would be making it's way back to the electrical > generator, or to the nearest accessible point on the shore-side > distribution grid, rather than making it's way seawards out towards > boats moored on the water's surface. > > Unless of course these boats are electrically connected in some way > to become part of the circuit. Shore power connections are the > obvious culprits here, but I can also see that anchoring with chain > could also cause a metal boat to be electrically connected across a > voltage potential, which might possibly exist between the surface and > the contaminated bottom if electrical leakage current was present in > the area. > > In the absence of a shore cable and/or an anchor chain to the sea > bed - how is this destructive electrolysis occurring ? If someone > could give me a hand understanding this, it would be appreciated. > > Colin > > PS: in terms of an economic 'fix' for the earth leakage problem, in > Europe we favour the use of RCD's (Residual Current Devices, also > known as ELCB's - Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers), which monitor the > positive and negative swings of the 240V sine-wave. Any difference > in excess of 20mA for a few milliseconds causes the circuit breaker > to trip. They cost anything betwen £20 and £60 depending on > capacity. They're also highly recommended for using 240V power tools > outdoors, as they virtually eliminate the risk of electrocution. > > | 5683|5617|2004-09-27 20:45:40|fenixrises|Re: Metalizing Steel|Hi Colin, In the galvanic table that I looked at lead was one step below steel so that is why I said using lead might work. Would certainly want to check with someone far more knowledgeble than I. Since metalizing with aluminum is better that zinc according to what has been reported by prior posts, I wonder why attaching a big ol' piece of aluminum wouldn't work as well or better than zinc??? Scrap chunks of aluminum could be had for cheap compared to new zinc. Flux. Solder is often used on SS water tanks. Perhaps the same type could be used on regular steel. Take care, Fred "sae140" wrote: > Hi Fred > > isn't this the wrong way around ? If you 'tinned' a piece of bare > steel with lead and then scratched it through to the steel, on > immersion in seawater the steel would then be electrolytically > sacrificed to the lead. A great pity, 'cause lead is so easy to work > with. > > I've heard that flame-sprayed aluminium is currently being employed > as the surface protection of choice for new North Sea offshore > construction projects. > Zinc wiping does sound interesting, especially as it could be applied > to smooth steel (ground/ wire-brushed/ oiled and pickled etc) - dunno > what flux is used ... (?) > Cold galvanising by the use of a zinc-rich primer paint (typically in > excess of 95% zinc) is another good method. Apparently it's not just > stuck-on 'paint', but chemical changes actually occur at the > interface between paint and steel. Ted Stone is the bloke to ask > about this stuff. > > Regards > > Colin > | 5684|5168|2004-09-28 02:53:13|Gerd|Re: Origami History|Thanks Brent, I am really interested in this. Do you mean literally "hundreds"? I am trying to get the picture together about the development of Origami as we know it, and if you and others could give us some more details that would be great. like: Who else designed origami boats, where, any other groups or organizations around for that? "Who was the first to come up with this particular dart-pattern? When and where did Lundstrom go for a patent, and did he get it, what means "turned out invalid" and what is the relationship to Curtis? All info very much appreciated ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Claes Lundstrom claimed to have invented origami boatbuilding decades > after hundreds were built in Vancouver. He even got a patent on the > proccess which turned out to be totally invalid due to the fact that > it was public domain years before he even applied for the patent. > That was the patent that Gary Curtis got sucked into initially. > Lundstrom has some good looking designs in aluminium, but the wide > sterns and lean bows make their directional stability and hull > balance doubtful. > Brent > Brent Swain | 5685|5635|2004-09-28 05:53:02|denis buggy|Re: Digest Number 953|dear Colin I have just seen a article in a well known magazine " yachting monthly " page 102 October edition ( BETWEEN A EURO ROCK AND A HARD PLACE BY IAN LAVAL ) , it details the seizing of the Lydia B sailed from BC Canada 18000 miles to uk and could not afford the licence approval to return and could only afford the lowest category( in land waterways only ) in order that the owner could continue to live aboard . the boat is a 30 ft sloop designed by Robert Perry of Seattle and built in Taiwan to Lloyds standards the type of boat is known as a baba30 about 260 made and some were imported into the uk as a westwind . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Digest Number 953 I'm really shocked to hear of foreign boats being impounded/ fined for contravening the Recreational Craft Directive, as it only applies to boats commercially built within the EU (and home-built craft sold within 5 years of construction, so as to block that obvious loophole) but does not apply to boats originating from outside the EU, where quite clearly EU legislation does not apply, nor to any boat built anywhere before the Directive was introduced. Is there any chance that the fines referred to were levied in regard of a boat from outside the EU being sold here, without being declared for VAT (Value Added Tax, sometime known as Visciously Added Tax) assessment ? VAT rules for importing/selling non-EU boats are complex and penalties for tax evasion are severe. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Robert I have since found that the directive does not apply to > homebuilt as long as they are not sold within five years of first > construction and the advice is you should comply with the directive for > insurance and resale reasons however turn up in any one of thousands of us > boats which are factory built and have not got the approval and you will > lose 5000.00 or boat regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Gainer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 12:47 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Digest Number 953 > > > > > > Re: insulation and design > > > > Denis said, > > "and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft > > directive) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg > > for > > turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements" > > > > > > Denis, > > Is the RCD the same thing as British MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) > > code? There is an editorial by Dudley Dawson in this months "Professional > > Boat Builder" on page 192 about the change in the MCA and its very > > deleterious effect on the larger boats. The code was very loose before and > > left the details up to the designer while setting goals and standards. Now > > the new code is being rigorously enforced and details all aspects of the > > design and construction in the same way a passenger ship is regulated. > > From > > the sound of it trouble is on the way. > > All the best, > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5686|5617|2004-09-28 06:53:34|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Metalizing Steel|Heating metal and wiping on zinc etc. is possible. However, if you heated the metal with an oxygen acetylene torch, you have one of the major parts of a metal spray system. Basically, if you add the gun you have a workable metal spray system. There is an old type L gun for sale on ebay. The current price is $39.99. I just bought 50 kilos of zinc wire and it cost a little under 5 US$ per kilo. The test areas that I have done indicate about 5 square meters of coverage per kilo. Gerald| 5687|5617|2004-09-28 07:33:06|Graeme|Re: Metalizing Steel|Gerald Sorry for asking but which ebay I guess you are in the USA have you got a link for it Regards Graeme| 5688|5617|2004-09-28 07:58:13|Graeme|Re: Metalizing Steel|Gerald The only one I can find is this one for a $1000 http://search.ebay.com/metallizing-spray-gun_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcom pareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQsamotorscategorymapZ603 8QQsasaleclassZ1QQsocolumnlayoutZ3QQsocomparecolumnlayoutZ1QQsorecordspe rpageZ50QQsosortorderZ2QQsosortpropertyZ2QQsospellrecommendationZ1QQsotr Z2 graeme Gerald Sorry for asking but which ebay I guess you are in the USA have you got a link for it Regards Graeme To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5689|22|2004-09-28 09:22:40|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /LP36-02A.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : Origami steel "Whitehead 36" You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/LP36-02A.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 5690|5582|2004-09-28 09:30:03|normanbywaite|Re: fresh water scuppers|Thanks Colin, I'm not sure i followed everything you mentioned - i have fiddled with a couple of small models, but i'll have a go at something more Wylo-ish. Could you clarify something for me - are you saying that one could build a Swain hull, and have either a) higher topsides to accomodate the flush decks (might look more like a Benford Mercedes, which i can't seem to find photos of on their site, but i have seen a photo of a model) or b) build up the flush deck with the use of deck beams after building a Swain hull exactly to plan? The Wylo II appears to have a kind of hard chine tumblehome. Is that the upshot of your experiments? Thanks again, i'm constantly impressed with how helpfull everyone is. Cheers, Matt Waite P.S. To young Ben in Tasmania - i saw some of your posts on the WyloII group, i must come down and visit you to pick your brains sometime... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Hi Matt, the Nick Skeates Wylo II is presented with some keel > > and rigoptions , and 32' - 33' is an ideal allrounder size boat. > > Personaly I see no reason why she could not be redesigned > > for building in what you call " Origami " > > Hi guys > > As anyone conversant with the Wylo design knows, the study-plan > sections have not been drawn in the conventional manner to represent > regular spacing, but instead represent the actual construction frames > which are left in place in the hull to aid fitting-out. > Because of this ambiguity regarding spacing, I made a 1/10 model of > the Wylo hull some time ago, and adjusted the fore-and-aft position > of the sections using thin battens to check for fairness. When these > positions were optimised, and having in-filled with plaster, I was > then able to round-off the extremities of the hard chines so that > sections of this scale hull became roughly midway between hard and > round. This was done in order to keep the new hull's volume as near > as possible to the original, and thus hopefully also the shape. > Several Origami 'skins' were then taken off the scale hull using the > classic orange-peel method, with slight changes being made to the > position and length of the chine slit, and a couple of paper-card > models were then made up. > > The reason I'm posting this info again now, is that as far as I could > tell, with the exception of the stem being more curved in profile (a > necessary consequence of the method ?), the Origami Wylo hull form > looked practically identical to that of the Swain hull form (up to > deck level). Certainly, I couldn't see enough difference by eye to > warrant working-up a new design with all that that entails. > > Hope this is of passing interest, and that someone is motivated > enough to replicate this procedure - 'cause it's really great fun ! > > Colin | 5691|5617|2004-09-28 09:51:11|brentgeery|Re: Metalizing Steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > Heating metal and wiping on zinc etc. is possible. However, if you > heated the metal with an oxygen acetylene torch, you have one of the > major parts of a metal spray system. Basically, if you add the gun > you have a workable metal spray system. There is an old type L gun > for sale on ebay. The current price is $39.99. > I just bought 50 kilos of zinc wire and it cost a little under 5 US$ > per kilo. The test areas that I have done indicate about 5 square > meters of coverage per kilo. > Gerald How much advantage is the flame spray over just heating the steel with a propane torch, and wiping the zinc it on? That really sounds like the best, KISS method, requiring no expensive equipment, and no access to electricity. In fact, the same method can be used in the middle of nowhere, for repairs or upgrades to the boat. That makes it even more attractive, at least to myself. Just thought about the need for sand blasting-- are either flame spray or wiping on zinc tolerant of rusted metal? Assuming rusted metal won't do for either (my guess,) can a simple cleaning with a light hit of a grinder, or one of those wheels with the little "fingers" that scrape off the rust/paint. PS: This also brigs up the possibility of D-I-Y galvanizing of all sorts of parts that we might otherwise $pay to have done. Isn't all that's required is to dip the part in a pot of melted zinc, then remove excess zinc with centrifugal force?| 5692|5635|2004-09-28 10:45:27|Michael Casling|Re: Digest Number 953|Do you know if this is a licence / permit that is required by all boats, or is it a test with inspection that all boats have to pass. If it is an inspection I wonder how they made up the rules and how they apply them.There are a lot of lesser boats than the Baba 30. I would think that Bob Perry would have something to say if this boat did not pass " the test " I would like to know more. Is this the same country that Chay Blyth rowed away from? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: denis buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Digest Number 953 dear Colin I have just seen a article in a well known magazine " yachting monthly " page 102 October edition ( BETWEEN A EURO ROCK AND A HARD PLACE BY IAN LAVAL ) , it details the seizing of the Lydia B sailed from BC Canada 18000 miles to uk and could not afford the licence approval to return and could only afford the lowest category( in land waterways only ) in order that the owner could continue to live aboard . the boat is a 30 ft sloop designed by Robert Perry of Seattle and built in Taiwan to Lloyds standards the type of boat is known as a baba30 about 260 made and some were imported into the uk as a westwind . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Digest Number 953 I'm really shocked to hear of foreign boats being impounded/ fined for contravening the Recreational Craft Directive, as it only applies to boats commercially built within the EU (and home-built craft sold within 5 years of construction, so as to block that obvious loophole) but does not apply to boats originating from outside the EU, where quite clearly EU legislation does not apply, nor to any boat built anywhere before the Directive was introduced. Is there any chance that the fines referred to were levied in regard of a boat from outside the EU being sold here, without being declared for VAT (Value Added Tax, sometime known as Visciously Added Tax) assessment ? VAT rules for importing/selling non-EU boats are complex and penalties for tax evasion are severe. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Robert I have since found that the directive does not apply to > homebuilt as long as they are not sold within five years of first > construction and the advice is you should comply with the directive for > insurance and resale reasons however turn up in any one of thousands of us > boats which are factory built and have not got the approval and you will > lose 5000.00 or boat regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Gainer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 12:47 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Digest Number 953 > > > > > > Re: insulation and design > > > > Denis said, > > "and does anybody know anything about the R.C.D. (recreational craft > > directive) as some U.S. boats are being impounded and fined 5000.00 stg > > for > > turning up in a uk port as they do not comply with requirements" > > > > > > Denis, > > Is the RCD the same thing as British MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) > > code? There is an editorial by Dudley Dawson in this months "Professional > > Boat Builder" on page 192 about the change in the MCA and its very > > deleterious effect on the larger boats. The code was very loose before and > > left the details up to the designer while setting goals and standards. Now > > the new code is being rigorously enforced and details all aspects of the > > design and construction in the same way a passenger ship is regulated. > > From > > the sound of it trouble is on the way. > > All the best, > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5693|5617|2004-09-28 10:48:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: Metalizing Steel|Part of the hot dip galvanising process is the pickling of the component in an acid bath for several hours before the galvaninising. Paint or wax crayon marks etc on the steel will spoil the galvanising. Hot dip galvanising can be very dangerous if there is any moisture or unvented voids in the component. Regards, Ted| 5694|5617|2004-09-28 11:43:33|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Metalizing Steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme" wrote: > Gerald > > Sorry for asking but which ebay I guess you are in the USA have you got > a link for it > > Regards > > Graeme I guess the product for sale is in the USA? It is listed in Texas so don't know for sure if that state has gone back to Mexico or is still a part of the USA?? At any rate I entered the word Metco into the search engine on the ebay home page. If you watch for Metco gun sales you will see some go for very low prices. I have purchased two guns and in both cases paid less than 100th the price that new guns sell for here in Brazil. Here is the link that goes directly to the gun: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=11774&item=3842639880&rd=1 Heating metal and wiping on zinc is a novel idea. However, my boat has more than 150 meters that will be sprayed with zinc. Wonder how it would work out to rub the zinc on the inside and then have it all run off as you heated and applied zinc to the outside? The gun can also spray many different metals. BTW the gun works on air not electricity. You need a good supply of air for the motor that pulls the wire as well as the air used to shoot the molten metal. Gerald| 5695|5635|2004-09-28 13:07:33|Gerd|Re: Digest Number 953|The articel itself is not online but the editorial treating the same subject is at http://www.yachtingmonthly.co.uk/auto/ym/edletter/20040813163711ymedl etter.html Gerd the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Do you know if this is a licence / permit that is required by all boats, or is it a test with inspection that all boats have to pass. If it is an inspection I wonder how they made up the rules and how they apply them.There are a lot of lesser boats than the Baba 30. I would think that Bob Perry would have something to say if this boat did not pass " the test " I would like to know more. Is this the same country that Chay Blyth rowed away from?| 5696|5635|2004-09-28 13:16:00|Gerd|Re: Digest Number 953|... and it's a european owner, sailing the boat home into his own country, not a canadian visitor, therefore the problem. A visiting yacht would have to supply registration according to their home country. Does not make it any better for us Europeans though. It is not really new in Europe anyway, France has had some sort of "seaworthiness" categories for a quarter of a century already, with very heavy and expensive rules for minimum, approved equipment and building rules allowing maximum distances from the next harbour or off the beach. Gerd| 5697|5635|2004-09-28 13:57:45|Gerd|Re: Digest Number 953|... and I found his Homepage: http://www.ianlaval.com/ the boat is up for sale at 45000 quid, no VAT, and she is "RCD certified" ;-) Gerd| 5698|5638|2004-09-28 14:27:23|David K McComber|Re: Strain for design and FEA|Thanks I got it. I haven't hade time to look it over yet. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: jim dorey [mailto:skaar@...] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Strain for design and FEA On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:42:15 -0000, robertgainer wrote: > David, > Everything within the quotation marks is the link including the > spaces. > > "www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2002/17th -4- Safety factors in > composite yacht structures.pdf" > > > "www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/1994/Load measurements on the 9.4 m > sailing yacht - Sail Lab.pdf" > > I tried copy and paste to my browser and removed the quotation marks > and it worked for me. I don't know why the mailing list changes the > link, but I guess it does. > All the best, > Robert Gainer when posting a link that has spaces you should replace the spaces with %20. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5699|5617|2004-09-28 16:34:14|brentswain38|Re: Metalizing Steel|The metal doesn't get that hot as long as the tip is clean. When things get hot, it's time to clean the tip Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme" wrote: > > Gerald > > > > Sorry for asking but which ebay I guess you are in the USA have you > got > > a link for it > > > > Regards > > > > Graeme > > I guess the product for sale is in the USA? It is listed in Texas so > don't know for sure if that state has gone back to Mexico or is still > a part of the USA?? At any rate I entered the word Metco into the > search engine on the ebay home page. If you watch for Metco gun sales > you will see some go for very low prices. I have purchased two guns > and in both cases paid less than 100th the price that new guns sell > for here in Brazil. Here is the link that goes directly to the > gun: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&category=11774&item=3842639880&rd=1 > > Heating metal and wiping on zinc is a novel idea. However, my boat > has more than 150 meters that will be sprayed with zinc. Wonder how > it would work out to rub the zinc on the inside and then have it all > run off as you heated and applied zinc to the outside? The gun can > also spray many different metals. > BTW the gun works on air not electricity. You need a good supply of > air for the motor that pulls the wire as well as the air used to > shoot the molten metal. > Gerald | 5700|5168|2004-09-28 16:36:10|brentswain38|Re: Origami History|Mirror clas sdinghies were designed in the 50's, a stitch and glue style which is basically origami in plywood. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Thanks Brent, I am really interested in this. > Do you mean literally "hundreds"? > I am trying to get the picture together about the development of > Origami as we know it, and if you and others could give us some more > details that would be great. like: > Who else designed origami boats, where, any other groups or > organizations around for that? > "Who was the first to come up with this particular dart-pattern? > When and where did Lundstrom go for a patent, and did he get it, > what means "turned out invalid" and what is the relationship to > Curtis? > All info very much appreciated ;-) > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Claes Lundstrom claimed to have invented origami boatbuilding > decades > > after hundreds were built in Vancouver. He even got a patent on > the > > proccess which turned out to be totally invalid due to the fact > that > > it was public domain years before he even applied for the patent. > > That was the patent that Gary Curtis got sucked into initially. > > Lundstrom has some good looking designs in aluminium, but the > wide > > sterns and lean bows make their directional stability and hull > > balance doubtful. > > Brent > > Brent Swain | 5701|5168|2004-09-28 16:51:01|brentswain38|Re: Origami History|Gary came up with the idea on his own in the mid 80's . When he did a search he found Lundstrom's patent. They will give you a patent for anything, it's up to you to do the search . Trying to enforce an invalid patent is a violation of antitrust laws in most countries. If one such item has been sold or the techniques have been published one day before the patent is issued, it's public domain and the patent is invalid. I sent Gary articles fron wooden boat magazine about an origami Kayak which was designed in 1960 and other info about boats built decades before Lundstrom's 1980 patent . That was the end of his patent altho it never was valid. Voyager Aluminium in the Vancouver area built hundreds of small aluminium workboats using origami methods in the 60's . Most small aluminium runabouts are built using origami methods and have been since the 50's. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Thanks Brent, I am really interested in this. > Do you mean literally "hundreds"? > I am trying to get the picture together about the development of > Origami as we know it, and if you and others could give us some more > details that would be great. like: > Who else designed origami boats, where, any other groups or > organizations around for that? > "Who was the first to come up with this particular dart-pattern? > When and where did Lundstrom go for a patent, and did he get it, > what means "turned out invalid" and what is the relationship to > Curtis? > All info very much appreciated ;-) > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Claes Lundstrom claimed to have invented origami boatbuilding > decades > > after hundreds were built in Vancouver. He even got a patent on > the > > proccess which turned out to be totally invalid due to the fact > that > > it was public domain years before he even applied for the patent. > > That was the patent that Gary Curtis got sucked into initially. > > Lundstrom has some good looking designs in aluminium, but the > wide > > sterns and lean bows make their directional stability and hull > > balance doubtful. > > Brent > > Brent Swain | 5702|5617|2004-09-28 16:55:06|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Metalizing Steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The metal doesn't get that hot as long as the tip is clean. When > things get hot, it's time to clean the tip > Brent > > Brent if you are referring to what I stated: >Heating metal and wiping on zinc is a novel idea. However, my boat > has more than 150 meters that will be sprayed with zinc. Wonder how > it would work out to rub the zinc on the inside and then have it all > run off as you heated and applied zinc to the outside? If you are talking about the metal after shooting the zinc on with the gun then yes, I can lay my hand on the metalized area a short time after shooting it. However, if you are saying that heating the metal and rubbing the zinc on, as previously suggested, doesn't create heat then please share your experiences with us. Maybe I can throw the gun away and rub the zinc on with a rag? Gerald| 5703|5703|2004-09-28 17:18:20|Robert Gainer|Re: Digest Number 955|>when posting a link that has spaces you should replace the spaces with %20. Thank you, I will try that. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/| 5704|5635|2004-09-28 18:21:32|sae140|Re: Digest Number 953|Nice one Gerd - thanks. So that's what happened - not VAT, but a EU citizen importing a boat from overseas. Bureaucracy gone mad. I blame the French - they started this nonsense, and like all top-heavy bureaucracies it's inconsistent. Take the permit to transit inland French waterways for example. If you wish to travel through France via their canal system you have to pass a competence test ... but if you're just hiring a boat on their waterways for a few days, then you don't (!) So those with perhaps zero boating experience can merrily sail around with no checks whatsoever, whereas those who have sailed into French waters and have thus demonstrated that they have at least enough experience to arrive there, still have to prove that they're competent enough to sail through the canals ... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > The articel itself is not online but the editorial treating the same > subject is at > http://www.yachtingmonthly.co.uk/auto/ym/edletter/20040813163711ymedl > etter.html > > > Gerd > the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > Do you know if this is a licence / permit that is required by all > boats, or is it a test with inspection that all boats have to pass. > If it is an inspection I wonder how they made up the rules and how > they apply them.There are a lot of lesser boats than the Baba 30. I > would think that Bob Perry would have something to say if this boat > did not pass " the test " I would like to know more. Is this the > same country that Chay Blyth rowed away from? | 5705|5635|2004-09-28 18:37:16|sae140|Re: Digest Number 953|As the boat has been imported into the EU, it's liable for VAT - and in the UK the Customs and Excise themselves decide what the market value is (no comment !). I wonder is Ian is aware of this ? Maybe he's already paid it. The link you give isn't working this evening. If someone buys an imported boat which hasn't had EU VAT paid on it, they will be saddled with the bill. Caveat emptor. Even worse, if the boat is subsequently sold outside of the EU and then re-imported again, the VAT bill applies again (!) - i.e. it isn't a one-time-only tax. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > ... and I found his Homepage: http://www.ianlaval.com/ > the boat is up for sale at 45000 quid, no VAT, and she is "RCD > certified" ;-) > Gerd | 5706|5651|2004-09-28 19:17:42|ben_azo|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|The last pic posted in Photos is a steel tri , what are the dimensions of the tri you want to build in Origami , you could find some fine Passengers Cruising Boats , kind of the " Love Boat " specs or larger . How many passengers for how long cruises and over what distances and at what desired cruising speed ? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" wrote: > "> I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process should take some time and could very well prove to be unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship building, for his analysis." > > A couple quick thoughts on steel trimarans. I would seriously doubt that you would find any information steel trimarans. Trimarans are extremely weight sensitive. Much of a multi-hull's safety comes from keeping its weight light enough that the energy of the wind can be disbursed as acceleration rather than heeling. Of the common boat building materials only ferro-cement does worse than steel on a strength to weight basis. Aluminum, composites and various forms of wood construction are much more suitable to trimaran construction. Because of their extremely narrow hulls trimarans are very adaptable to 'tortured' techniques in any of these three materials which are closely akin to origami construction techniques, equally as fast and probably less expensive than steel for such narrow hull forms. > > With regards to the New Zealand safety inspections, an auditor report after two years showed a somewhere between a 30% and 40% decrease in the number of rescues that were required. It also indicated a drop in minor calls for help and a higher success rate in the cases where rescue was necessary. I thought taht sounded like a pretty dramatic set of results. NZ claims that the inspection program actually costs them more money to operate than the result of the inspection fees (which originally were higher) but that the reatly reduced number of rescues way more than offsets the cost of the inspection program. That said, I know that they were getting a lot of international flack so I don't know if the program is still in place. > > Respectfully, > Jeff > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5707|5635|2004-09-28 19:51:59|fmichael graham|Re: Digest Number 953|They seized a Baba 30 because they thought it unseaworthy or of questionable construction? LOL Or, was it because the owner tried to exit without paying the fee? (More likely) denis buggy wrote: dear Colin I have just seen a article in a well known magazine " yachting monthly " page 102 October edition ( BETWEEN A EURO ROCK AND A HARD PLACE BY IAN LAVAL ) , it details the seizing of the Lydia B sailed from BC Canada 18000 miles to uk and could not afford the licence approval to return and could only afford the lowest category( in land waterways only ) in order that the owner could continue to live aboard . the boat is a 30 ft sloop designed by Robert Perry of Seattle and built in Taiwan to Lloyds standards the type of boat is known as a baba30 about 260 made and some were imported into the uk as a westwind . regards Denis --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5708|5617|2004-09-28 20:46:49|brentgeery|Re: Metalizing Steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > >Heating metal and wiping on zinc is a novel idea. However, my boat > > has more than 150 meters that will be sprayed with zinc. Wonder how > > it would work out to rub the zinc on the inside and then have it all > > run off as you heated and applied zinc to the outside? > > If you are talking about the metal after shooting the zinc on with > the gun then yes, I can lay my hand on the metalized area a short > time after shooting it. However, if you are saying that heating the > metal and rubbing the zinc on, as previously suggested, doesn't > create heat then please share your experiences with us. Maybe I can > throw the gun away and rub the zinc on with a rag? > Gerald How did I miss that comment? You are probably right. I guess the way to avoid the possibility of that problem, would be to have a partner help, and do both sides of the metal at the same time. Another idea would we to melt the zinc instead of heating the metal, and then "paint" or "roll" it on the metal. Some experimenting is called for, but it looks like a really interesting technique.| 5709|5635|2004-09-28 21:17:24|knutfg|Re: Digest Number 953|After a few years of moving around in different countries I have made one generally applicable observation: NEVER TRY TO FIND ANY LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE BEHIND RULES AND REGULATIONS COVERING TAXATION, CUSTOMS OR IMMIGRATION. THE EFFORT IS TOO CLOSE TO WASTE OF TIME. What to do? Adapt as needed, find a way through with the least effort and cost. Knut| 5710|5617|2004-09-28 22:21:22|fenixrises|Re: Metalizing Steel|Hi all, Found this link for zink "sticks". This stuff is used to coat welds and damaged ares on galvanized steel. Might be just the ticket because it seems to have built in flux, unless its cost is too high. Put "flux" into google and you'll get a lot of options. http://rotometals.com/galvanizing_products.htm Fred > Hi all, > > Been reading previous posts. > One idea put forth was doing a zinc wash? Essentially using a large > propane torch and soldering(?) the fluxed steel surface with zinc. I > do not know offhand the cost of zinc so do not know if this is a > worthwhile or practical idea. > The question I have is could this be done with lead as well? > Lead is just below steel galvanically and tin, frequently found in > lead as a harding agent, is well below steel. Might this be easier > because of lower melting point and/or better adhesion? > > Take care, > Fred | 5711|1761|2004-09-29 00:41:55|tronfixr|Re: Electrolysis|If this is not an open forum, apologies... I found a good start: "Corrosion is an electrochemical reaction based on universal laws of nature. All metallic structures corrode. It is just a question of how quickly. Steel, for example, is a man made substance produced from iron oxide. The energy added in the refining process is unstable. Given a suitable environment, steel will release this energy and return to its natural state of iron ore. When immersed in an electrolyte, such as soil,water, or concrete, metals produce a current which causes ions to leave their surface. The rate of current flow determines the life of the structure. One ampere of current consumes approximately 20 pounds of iron per year." Taken from: http://www.cathodicprotection.com/cpintro.htm The active method to counter this process (the 'gizmo') is called 'impressed current cathodic protection' which involves introducing a counter or opposite current to cancel these 'natural processes'. The passive arrangment is 'Zincs'. A web search of Cathodic Protection, impressed current cathodic protection, or galvanic corrosion, should produce similar results. This seemed the most basic explaination I could find. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi Colin, > > I would not class myself as an expert on the subject of electroysis. > From what I understand there only needs to exist potential(voltage) > in the water to cause electrolysis. With potential there can be > current(amperage) flow. Saltwater provides the electrolite > (conductor). > > If you have a wood or plastic boat and all the through hulls are > bonded together then you can have a problem. Bonding is a common > practice but not universal. Because electricity will usually always > seek the shortest path a stray current can flow from cathode metal > through the bonding system to the anode metal of a boat. This could > be something as simple as two through hull fittings of slightly > different alloy. If everything is working %100 perfect this means the > anode is a nice big chunk of zinc. Some experts do not recommend > bonding a boat, some do. On nonconductive boats the bonding system > provides the conductor(seawater would also do this to an extent). I > have never bonded any of my personal boats and would not do so. Of > course a metal boat is one big conductor. Welded or securely bolted > zincs on a metal boat are always recommended as far as I know. > Principally to protect it from stray currents in port but also from > galvanic electrolysis onboard. > > As for "Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers" I think the same thing here > is called Ground Fault Circuit Interupter, more commonly GFCI or GFI. > Circuit breakers of this type are readilly available and in fact > required for certain types of installations. On a smaller scale > standard electrical outlets(120v here) also have this function built > into them. They can be used in place of standard outlets. Our > National Electric Code (NEC) requires their use for outside outlets > and inside outlets if within 24" of a water source, i.e. kitcken > faucet. > > While Newport Harbor is an unusual case I am certain that there are > similar situations worldwide. Even when very localized you can have a > big problem. I you are docked next to a boat with a faulty electrical > system your boat could be cooked off in short order. > > Take care, > Fred > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > Hi Fred > > > > Firstly - thanks for describing the situation at Newport harbour so > > well. Sounds like a pretty grim scenario. > > > > I think it would be a fool or a very brave man who would take issue > > with you about the underlying causes of Newport harbour being so > > electrically 'hot', so I wouldn't even consider doing that > here .... > > but what I'm having difficulty with is getting my head around > exactly > > *how* electrolytic corrosion of boat hulls is happening. > > > > My understanding of electrolytic corrosion is that when a voltage > > difference occurs across metal or metals, then if an external > current > > is allowed to flow, then a migration of ions will occur, > effectively > > dissolving away the metal at the donor (or anodic) surface. > > The essence of this mechanism is a localised difference in galvanic > > potential (i.e. a voltage), such as that which can be measured when > > dissimilar metals are fixed together and then immersed in > seawater. > > I have no difficulty with this concept, as there exists a closed > > circuit around which current will flow. > > > > However, when a boat is moored over an area of spoil ground, even > > though there may be huge amounts of electro-chemical decomposition > > taking place a few feet below the keel - how does this affect our > > hull, when our hull is not part of any obvious electrical circuit > > involving a difference in potential around which a destructive > > current may flow ? > > > > Likewise, if there is earth leakage onshore - one would assume that > > the leakage current would be making it's way back to the electrical > > generator, or to the nearest accessible point on the shore-side > > distribution grid, rather than making it's way seawards out towards > > boats moored on the water's surface. > > > > Unless of course these boats are electrically connected in some way > > to become part of the circuit. Shore power connections are the > > obvious culprits here, but I can also see that anchoring with chain > > could also cause a metal boat to be electrically connected across a > > voltage potential, which might possibly exist between the surface > and > > the contaminated bottom if electrical leakage current was present > in > > the area. > > > > In the absence of a shore cable and/or an anchor chain to the sea > > bed - how is this destructive electrolysis occurring ? If someone > > could give me a hand understanding this, it would be appreciated. > > > > Colin > > > > PS: in terms of an economic 'fix' for the earth leakage problem, > in > > Europe we favour the use of RCD's (Residual Current Devices, also > > known as ELCB's - Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers), which monitor > the > > positive and negative swings of the 240V sine-wave. Any difference > > in excess of 20mA for a few milliseconds causes the circuit breaker > > to trip. They cost anything betwen £20 and £60 depending on > > capacity. They're also highly recommended for using 240V power > tools > > outdoors, as they virtually eliminate the risk of electrocution. > > > > | 5712|1761|2004-09-29 00:47:23|tronfixr|Re: Electrolysis|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tronfixr" wrote: > If this is not an open forum, apologies... > > I found a good start: > > "Corrosion is an electrochemical reaction based on universal laws of > nature. All metallic structures corrode. It is just a question of how > quickly. > > Steel, for example, is a man made substance produced from iron oxide. > The energy added in the refining process is unstable. Given a suitable > environment, steel will release this energy and return to its natural > state of iron ore. When immersed in an electrolyte, such as > soil,water, or concrete, metals produce a current which causes ions to > leave their surface. The rate of current flow determines the life of > the structure. One ampere of current consumes approximately 20 pounds > of iron per year." > > Taken from: http://www.cathodicprotection.com/cpintro.htm > > The active method to counter this process (the 'gizmo') is called > 'impressed current cathodic protection' which involves introducing a > counter or opposite current to cancel these 'natural processes'. I forgot to mention... adding current accelerates the process. Mike >The passive arrangment is 'Zincs'. > > A web search of Cathodic Protection, impressed current cathodic > protection, or galvanic corrosion, should produce similar results. > This seemed the most basic explaination I could find. > > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > > > I would not class myself as an expert on the subject of electroysis. > > From what I understand there only needs to exist potential(voltage) > > in the water to cause electrolysis. With potential there can be > > current(amperage) flow. Saltwater provides the electrolite > > (conductor). > > > > If you have a wood or plastic boat and all the through hulls are > > bonded together then you can have a problem. Bonding is a common > > practice but not universal. Because electricity will usually always > > seek the shortest path a stray current can flow from cathode metal > > through the bonding system to the anode metal of a boat. This could > > be something as simple as two through hull fittings of slightly > > different alloy. If everything is working %100 perfect this means the > > anode is a nice big chunk of zinc. Some experts do not recommend > > bonding a boat, some do. On nonconductive boats the bonding system > > provides the conductor(seawater would also do this to an extent). I > > have never bonded any of my personal boats and would not do so. Of > > course a metal boat is one big conductor. Welded or securely bolted > > zincs on a metal boat are always recommended as far as I know. > > Principally to protect it from stray currents in port but also from > > galvanic electrolysis onboard. > > > > As for "Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers" I think the same thing here > > is called Ground Fault Circuit Interupter, more commonly GFCI or GFI. > > Circuit breakers of this type are readilly available and in fact > > required for certain types of installations. On a smaller scale > > standard electrical outlets(120v here) also have this function built > > into them. They can be used in place of standard outlets. Our > > National Electric Code (NEC) requires their use for outside outlets > > and inside outlets if within 24" of a water source, i.e. kitcken > > faucet. > > > > While Newport Harbor is an unusual case I am certain that there are > > similar situations worldwide. Even when very localized you can have a > > big problem. I you are docked next to a boat with a faulty electrical > > system your boat could be cooked off in short order. > > > > Take care, > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > Hi Fred > > > > > > Firstly - thanks for describing the situation at Newport harbour so > > > well. Sounds like a pretty grim scenario. > > > > > > I think it would be a fool or a very brave man who would take issue > > > with you about the underlying causes of Newport harbour being so > > > electrically 'hot', so I wouldn't even consider doing that > > here .... > > > but what I'm having difficulty with is getting my head around > > exactly > > > *how* electrolytic corrosion of boat hulls is happening. > > > > > > My understanding of electrolytic corrosion is that when a voltage > > > difference occurs across metal or metals, then if an external > > current > > > is allowed to flow, then a migration of ions will occur, > > effectively > > > dissolving away the metal at the donor (or anodic) surface. > > > The essence of this mechanism is a localised difference in galvanic > > > potential (i.e. a voltage), such as that which can be measured when > > > dissimilar metals are fixed together and then immersed in > > seawater. > > > I have no difficulty with this concept, as there exists a closed > > > circuit around which current will flow. > > > > > > However, when a boat is moored over an area of spoil ground, even > > > though there may be huge amounts of electro-chemical decomposition > > > taking place a few feet below the keel - how does this affect our > > > hull, when our hull is not part of any obvious electrical circuit > > > involving a difference in potential around which a destructive > > > current may flow ? > > > > > > Likewise, if there is earth leakage onshore - one would assume that > > > the leakage current would be making it's way back to the electrical > > > generator, or to the nearest accessible point on the shore-side > > > distribution grid, rather than making it's way seawards out towards > > > boats moored on the water's surface. > > > > > > Unless of course these boats are electrically connected in some way > > > to become part of the circuit. Shore power connections are the > > > obvious culprits here, but I can also see that anchoring with chain > > > could also cause a metal boat to be electrically connected across a > > > voltage potential, which might possibly exist between the surface > > and > > > the contaminated bottom if electrical leakage current was present > > in > > > the area. > > > > > > In the absence of a shore cable and/or an anchor chain to the sea > > > bed - how is this destructive electrolysis occurring ? If someone > > > could give me a hand understanding this, it would be appreciated. > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > PS: in terms of an economic 'fix' for the earth leakage problem, > > in > > > Europe we favour the use of RCD's (Residual Current Devices, also > > > known as ELCB's - Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers), which monitor > > the > > > positive and negative swings of the 240V sine-wave. Any difference > > > in excess of 20mA for a few milliseconds causes the circuit breaker > > > to trip. They cost anything betwen £20 and £60 depending on > > > capacity. They're also highly recommended for using 240V power > > tools > > > outdoors, as they virtually eliminate the risk of electrocution. > > > > > > | 5713|5635|2004-09-29 01:15:11|Gerd|Re: Digest Number 953|sory, the working link is http://www.ianlaval.com/boat/index.htm Gerd| 5714|5635|2004-09-29 02:13:40|sae140|Re: Digest Number 953|Sound words - if Ian had bought an off-the-shelf Isle-of-Man or Channel Islands company for £50 and had he bought the Lydia in that company's name (i.e. so it became a company asset), then an EU resident would never have actually purchased the boat and it would not have had to comply with the RCD. It would have also been exempt from VAT. (Offshore 'tax havens' not being part of the EU. However, they still permit UK registration and the flying of the Red Ensign, if this is important to you.) I've sent Ian an email enquiring about the VAT situation on his boat. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > After a few years of moving around in different countries I have > made one generally applicable observation: > > NEVER TRY TO FIND ANY LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE BEHIND RULES AND > REGULATIONS COVERING TAXATION, CUSTOMS OR IMMIGRATION. THE EFFORT IS > TOO CLOSE TO WASTE OF TIME. > > What to do? Adapt as needed, find a way through with the least > effort and cost. > > Knut | 5715|5635|2004-09-29 03:24:50|Gerd|Re: Digest Number 953|Hi Colin Interesting approach that. But does that work for the registration / RCD problem? Can you get a british _registration_for a boat that does not comply to RCD? Actually tax and VAT have nothing to do with this story , it is really more like registering a foreign car. If Ian had brought back a car instead and tried to register it, then he also would have had to prove that this car complies to whatever the rules are in his home country, I don't know for England, but in Germany they might ask you to change lights, add seatbelts in the back and so on, and you would have to pay for a) the modifications and b) the visit and issuing of a compliance document. The fact that this car may run by the million and is considered the most roadworthy (seaworthy...) thing in it's country of origin would enter in the discussion. VAT, taxes etc would independantly come on top of that if applicable. Gerd the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5716|5617|2004-09-29 05:07:00|Graeme|Re: Metalizing Steel|Thx Gerald Regards Graeme| 5717|5635|2004-09-29 06:28:45|denis buggy|Re: Digest Number 953|dear Michael the boat was seized as it did not have the rca cert and there is no presumption that it would not get one you simply must standardise everything in the eu to make it possible for people (who have the power to make life impossible for you ) to understand quickly what you are doing and to quickly make you do your thing their way regardless of the consequences . Denis Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5718|5635|2004-09-29 06:41:29|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Digest Number 953|Gerd I bought a boat from an English man. He had sailed it for Argentina to here in Brazil. The boat was registered in England. The boat had never left the Americas and he transferred the English registration to me. In this case registering a boat in England was no different from registering a dog. Pay the tax ........ go sailing! Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi Colin > Interesting approach that. But does that work for the registration / > RCD problem? Can you get a british _registration_for a boat that > does not comply to RCD? > Actually tax and VAT have nothing to do with this story , it is > really more like registering a foreign car. If Ian had brought back > a car instead and tried to register it, then he also would have had > to prove that this car complies to whatever the rules are in his > home country, I don't know for England, but in Germany they might > ask you to change lights, add seatbelts in the back and so on, and > you would have to pay for a) the modifications and b) the visit and > issuing of a compliance document. The fact that this car may run by > the million and is considered the most roadworthy (seaworthy...) > thing in it's country of origin would enter in the discussion. > VAT, taxes etc would independantly come on top of that if applicable. > > Gerd > the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 5719|5635|2004-09-29 07:45:45|Gerd|Re: Digest Number 953|Gerald - When was that? In any case, your boat was already registered UK _before_ the transfer of ownership if I understand right. So that makes it like any UK to UK second hand boat sale as far as RCD is concerned, and for that it does not make a difference where the boat is physically. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > Gerd > I bought a boat from an English man. He had sailed it for Argentina > to here in Brazil. The boat was registered in England. The boat had > never left the Americas and he transferred the English registration > to me. In this case registering a boat in England was no different > from registering a dog. Pay the tax ........ go sailing! > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Hi Colin > > Interesting approach that. But does that work for the > registration / > > RCD problem? Can you get a british _registration_for a boat that > > does not comply to RCD? > > Actually tax and VAT have nothing to do with this story , it is > > really more like registering a foreign car. If Ian had brought back > > a car instead and tried to register it, then he also would have had > > to prove that this car complies to whatever the rules are in his > > home country, I don't know for England, but in Germany they might > > ask you to change lights, add seatbelts in the back and so on, and > > you would have to pay for a) the modifications and b) the visit and > > issuing of a compliance document. The fact that this car may run by > > the million and is considered the most roadworthy (seaworthy...) > > thing in it's country of origin would enter in the discussion. > > VAT, taxes etc would independantly come on top of that if > applicable. > > > > Gerd > > the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 5720|5635|2004-09-29 11:51:12|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Digest Number 953|I bought that boat about 2 years ago. The boat was built in 1967 by Manual Campos and of course was registered in Argentina. The Englishman registered it as an English boat, and in the life of the boat it never left South America. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Gerald - When was that? In any case, your boat was already > registered UK _before_ the transfer of ownership if I understand > right. So that makes it like any UK to UK second hand boat sale as > far as RCD is concerned, and for that it does not make a difference > where the boat is physically. > Gerd > / | 5721|5635|2004-09-29 18:17:37|sae140|Re: Digest Number 953|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi Colin > Interesting approach that. But does that work for the registration / > RCD problem? Can you get a british _registration_for a boat that > does not comply to RCD? > Gerd Hi Gerd I'm not sure if this has been tested yet, but I think it should be possible in the special case of the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. For the benefit of those not familiar with these islands, they are called Tax Havens - islands which are part of the United Kingdom for some purposes (like boat registration), but have their own laws and parliaments and are certainly not part of the UK tax system. They are also most definitely not part of the EU, and are therefore not bound by any EU legislation (as they are not even bound by UK legislation !). Many rich people have their boats based in the C.I's (less so in the IoM) and registered there (Red Ensign etc) because of this unusual and convenient status. Colin| 5722|5635|2004-09-29 18:59:13|Michael Casling|Re: Digest Number 953|The Isle of Man is likely the oldest parliamentary democracy going back about 1100 years. Some of the English companies have subsidiaries there. I can place an investment with them from Canada. The IOM does not report the gains to anyone however the investor should study their own countries tax rules. This is not available for US citizens as I found out a few months ago. To separate yourself from most anything that involves the government you need a separate legal identity. This is usually a corporation but incorporation costs money, but varies with each jurisdiction. Some US states are corporate friendly. The IOM is a must place to visit especially in June during the TT races. There is even a place called Michael on the West Coast. I had to deal with the British customs when I sent over a couple of motorcycles. The rules were almost hilarious but we prevailed and one bike did make it to the TT race. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Digest Number 953 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi Colin > Interesting approach that. But does that work for the registration / > RCD problem? Can you get a british _registration_for a boat that > does not comply to RCD? > Gerd Hi Gerd I'm not sure if this has been tested yet, but I think it should be possible in the special case of the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. For the benefit of those not familiar with these islands, they are called Tax Havens - islands which are part of the United Kingdom for some purposes (like boat registration), but have their own laws and parliaments and are certainly not part of the UK tax system. They are also most definitely not part of the EU, and are therefore not bound by any EU legislation (as they are not even bound by UK legislation !). Many rich people have their boats based in the C.I's (less so in the IoM) and registered there (Red Ensign etc) because of this unusual and convenient status. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5723|22|2004-09-30 12:49:56|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /LP36-04A.jpg Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 36' Whitehead You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/LP36-04A.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 5724|5724|2004-09-30 14:08:35|newfield4u|The new Nanni Sail drive (Kubota) looks sweet. ( dry exhaust)|Gerry Dijkstra's new retirement cruiser "Bestevaer 2" is a nice study in a heavy weather, ice capable, 16.7 m aluminum cruiser, with a powerful cutter rig. (-: The Nanni sail drive with internal cooling and dry exhaust makes for a simple and clean install. I would sure like to see Gerrys design details. THe 10 to 62 HP Kubota blocks with a Hurth Saildrive. I wonder if this Hurth Saildrive with big prop will hold up with the high torque of the Kubota engines? A retractable bowsprit tucks in for safety in the ice, and tight places. I do love the traditional Gaff (YAGO) rig for all its proven and simplistic workings. But getting the topsail set and under control in a blow on a small craft in cold weather is a good way to burn up some needed carbs and energy. My artificial knee parts are coming loose again, it makes me think twice before I jump around on a small craft in cold weather. I think that if I were to build a gaff rig again that I would just make the mainsail larger and forget about the fisherman or topsail. I hate to say that.....)-: It sure is handy to have a another small mast aft, but again a arch or platform for some of the navigation and communication equipment is useful and makes things easy to service. Keep up the great work on Yago Gerd, and that new Whitehead 36 design rocks! THis is a great list and I have learned much from everyone. Best regards, Carl Nostrand Homer, Alaska| 5725|5635|2004-09-30 22:04:07|Michael Casling|Re: Digest Number 953|I am still not clear on what nationality the owner is, where he bought the boat, where he was taking it to, if it was for personal use or for sale, details like that. So I am just as confused as I was at the beginning of this story. Same thing with the Lotus 10.6 in NZ. I searched the NZ Herald and found nothing. So a story with out details is just that and not sufficiewnt for me at least to draw any conclusions and I learn nothing, but thanks for your input. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: denis buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:28 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Digest Number 953 dear Michael the boat was seized as it did not have the rca cert and there is no presumption that it would not get one you simply must standardise everything in the eu to make it possible for people (who have the power to make life impossible for you ) to understand quickly what you are doing and to quickly make you do your thing their way regardless of the consequences . Denis Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5726|5726|2004-10-01 13:25:15|fenixrises|Brent's Book Delivery Time?|Hi all, Sent off for Brent's book over two weeks ago. How long should it take? Address is in Florida. Fred| 5727|5727|2004-10-01 14:34:59|jfpacuas|BS 26 headroom|Hi folks, Anyone out there know what the pilothouse headroom is for the BS 26? I'm leaning away from an inboard diesel and just using an outboard. I'll probably opt for the bilgekeeler. Thanks Paul| 5728|5728|2004-10-01 14:57:34|Scott Carle|Subject: Brent's Book Delivery Time?|I sent off for book on 9/7 and got it back on the 25th I think. so you should be getting it soon. :) It's a good read. :) scott Message: 4 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:23:53 -0000 From: "fenixrises" Subject: Brent's Book Delivery Time? Hi all, Sent off for Brent's book over two weeks ago. How long should it take? Address is in Florida. Fred __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 5729|5727|2004-10-01 21:05:31|aaron riis|Re: BS 26 headroom|Paul, It depends on how high you build it, mine has plenty, so I can store lots of things under the cabin sole, probably around seven feet. Getting headroom in the main cabin is more challenging, but I should just make it. Aaron Riis --- jfpacuas wrote: > Hi folks, > > Anyone out there know what the pilothouse headroom > is for the BS 26? > > I'm leaning away from an inboard diesel and just > using an outboard. > I'll probably opt for the bilgekeeler. > > Thanks > > Paul > > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com| 5730|5730|2004-10-01 22:51:00|seeratlas|specs on BSwain 40|Hello all, I've been lurking on the group for the few days since I discovered it :) during which time I've read the posts, all 5k plus :) I think I may be interested in Brent's 40 footer in steel and would appreciate it if any of you that are building it or have purchased plans for it, can give me some idea of the .. 1. LWL 2. Beam 2. designed draft for the bilge keel model 3. designed displacement at whatever load he has specified in the plans. Thanks in advance as I'm trying to figure out whether the hull can carry all the 'stuff' I'd need to put in there. :) With very few exceptions, I've much enjoyed reading the discourse in the group and hope to be able to contribute at some point some of my own experiences that may prove of value to other members. Seer| 5731|5730|2004-10-02 00:16:12|brentgeery|Re: specs on BSwain 40|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I think I may be interested in Brent's 40 footer in steel and would > appreciate it if any of you that are building it or have purchased > plans for it, can give me some idea of the .. > 1. LWL > 2. Beam > 2. designed draft for the bilge keel model > 3. designed displacement at whatever load he has specified in the plans. From Brent's book: LOA 40' 0" LWL 36' 0" BEAM 11' 10" DRAFT 6' 5" (FIN KEEL) 4' 9" (BILGE KEEL) DISPLACEMENT 25,000 LBS KEEL WT 7,500 LBS (I think it reads)| 5732|5635|2004-10-02 02:02:51|sae140|Re: Digest Number 953|A couple of points I'd add to Mike's interesting post - if anyone ever gets to make it to the TT races they'll notice that the cats in the IoM have no tails. Scientists say it's genetics, but decades of motor-cycle races around the IoM roads may have something to do with it .... There's also a wide-spread belief on the island that even one sexual encounter with a Manx girl causes an instant addiction to the island for life, so you're then prevented from ever leaving. Young men - be warned (!). Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > The Isle of Man is likely the oldest parliamentary democracy going back about 1100 years. Some of the English companies have subsidiaries there. I can place an investment with them from Canada. The IOM does not report the gains to anyone however the investor should study their own countries tax rules. This is not available for US citizens as I found out a few months ago. To separate yourself from most anything that involves the government you need a separate legal identity. This is usually a corporation but incorporation costs money, but varies with each jurisdiction. Some US states are corporate friendly. The IOM is a must place to visit especially in June during the TT races. There is even a place called Michael on the West Coast. I had to deal with the British customs when I sent over a couple of motorcycles. The rules were almost hilarious but we prevailed and one bike did make it to the TT race. > Michael | 5733|1761|2004-10-02 02:07:18|sae140|Re: Electrolysis|Hi Mike > If this is not an open forum, apologies... Certainly this is very much an open forum - all input welcomed !! > "Corrosion is an electrochemical reaction based on universal laws of nature. All metallic structures corrode. It is just a question of how quickly. No problem with that as a general statement. > Steel, for example, is a man made substance produced from iron oxide. The energy added in the refining process is unstable. Given a suitable environment, steel will release this energy and return to its natural state of iron ore. No problem with that either. Although it would have been helpful to point out that steel is an alloy of iron and carbon (and often other stuff) which is why mild steel will passively corrode at a higher rate than pure iron. > When immersed in an electrolyte, such as soil,water, or concrete, metals produce a current which causes ions to leave their surface. The rate of current flow determines the life of the structure. One ampere of current consumes approximately 20 pounds of iron per year." Now this part of the quote is where simplification doesn't help much. There's a world of practical difference (even if the underlying chemistry is the same) between the passive oxidation of a bare steel surface in contact with an electrolyte such as seawater, and the accelerated corrosion caused by the galvanic potential created when dissimilar metals are connected in the presence of an electrolyte. Even worse is the situation where an adverse external current is being applied. It's being suggested that the situation in Newport harbour is being caused by the latter of these - but in order for an electrical current to flow, it has to flow *around* something, and this is where I simply don't 'get it', for if our hull is floating on the end of a nylon rode (say), and not connected electrically to shore - then how is it becoming part of the circuit, and thus being subjected to an advanced rate of electrolytic decomposition/corrosion/oxidation ? Think in terms of birds sitting on power lines, or people protected by Faraday cages during million volt discharges: these individuals don't come to any harm - despite the tremendous voltages and currents around them - precisely because they are not part of the electrical circuit. [To be pendantic, the quote is actually wrong. Metals don't produce a current which causes ionic movement. The reverse is true. The ions exist first (usually in the form of a chemically 'crystalline' lattice) - it is their flow through an electrolyte or other conductor which *becomes* the current.] > A web search of Cathodic Protection, impressed current cathodic protection, or galvanic corrosion, should produce similar results. This seemed the most basic explaination I could find. Mike Many thanks for digging this stuff up Mike. Maybe I should have added in a previous post that I have a reasonable theoretical knowledge of the chemistry and electrical principles involved in electrolysis, which is why the situation at Newport is puzzling me - it's almost as if something is being overlooked or not being mentioned, kinda like as if a piece of a jigsaw is missing. Best regards Colin| 5734|5635|2004-10-02 02:12:06|brentgeery|Re: Digest Number 953|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > There's also a wide-spread belief on the island that even > one sexual encounter with a Manx girl causes an instant addiction to > the island for life, so you're then prevented from ever leaving. > Young men - be warned (!). I'd like to try some of that! ;-D| 5735|5582|2004-10-02 02:15:19|sae140|Re: fresh water scuppers|Hi Matte The reason I used the Wylo lines (well - the sections as given in the study plans) only up to deck-level, or "where the deck would be if it were not a raised-deck design", was because I couldn't quite see how the raised-deck/ tumblehome structure could be incorporated easily into the origami folded sheet - and also, we have enough difficulty as it is getting big sheets of steel here in the UK .... I think it would be theoretically possible to build a Wylo-style raised-deck on top of a Swain hull - but there are a couple of important caveats: the center of gravity of the hull would be raised somewhat, although this could be offset by using either thinner steel, or even aluminium alloy for the raised area. However, the Swain side-decks are integral to the stiffening of the hull, and this needs to be taken into account when considering such a radical departure from a well tried and tested design. Although I much prefer the appearance of the Wylo from an aesthetic viewpoint, and there's much more interior cabin space, it does lack the protection that side- decks give when the boat is heeled (although this would be arguably less important if using junk rig). Also, since my early origami modelling experiments I've sailed with a wheelhouse, and am now 100% converted to these, and I can't easily see how a wheelhouse could be added to the Wylo topsides design without losing much of it's traditional character. My ideal boat would be a hybrid of the best (imo) of the Swain and Wylo designs: origami, twin keels & wheelhouse, with raised-deck and junk rig - with a modern gaff cutter rig as an option. I think I'd probably call it "Snark II". Someone suggested a while back that the Swain cabin (and maybe also a raised deck ?) could be built as a separate origami structure, and added - upside down, as it were - to the hull. Sounds complicated to me. Hope some of this rambling gives food for thought. Yes - a really good bunch of people on this forum. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "normanbywaite" wrote: > Thanks Colin, > I'm not sure i followed everything you mentioned - i have fiddled > with a couple of small models, but i'll have a go at something more > Wylo-ish. > Could you clarify something for me - are you saying that one could > build a Swain hull, and have either a) higher topsides to accomodate > the flush decks (might look more like a Benford Mercedes, which i > can't seem to find photos of on their site, but i have seen a photo > of a model) or b) build up the flush deck with the use of deck beams > after building a Swain hull exactly to plan? > The Wylo II appears to have a kind of hard chine tumblehome. Is that > the upshot of your experiments? > Thanks again, i'm constantly impressed with how helpfull everyone is. > Cheers, > Matt Waite > P.S. To young Ben in Tasmania - i saw some of your posts on the > WyloII group, i must come down and visit you to pick your brains > sometime... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > > Hi Matt, the Nick Skeates Wylo II is presented with some keel > > > and rigoptions , and 32' - 33' is an ideal allrounder size boat. > > > Personaly I see no reason why she could not be redesigned > > > for building in what you call " Origami " > > > > Hi guys > > > > As anyone conversant with the Wylo design knows, the study-plan > > sections have not been drawn in the conventional manner to > represent > > regular spacing, but instead represent the actual construction > frames > > which are left in place in the hull to aid fitting-out. > > Because of this ambiguity regarding spacing, I made a 1/10 model of > > the Wylo hull some time ago, and adjusted the fore-and-aft position > > of the sections using thin battens to check for fairness. When > these > > positions were optimised, and having in-filled with plaster, I was > > then able to round-off the extremities of the hard chines so that > > sections of this scale hull became roughly midway between hard and > > round. This was done in order to keep the new hull's volume as > near > > as possible to the original, and thus hopefully also the shape. > > Several Origami 'skins' were then taken off the scale hull using > the > > classic orange-peel method, with slight changes being made to the > > position and length of the chine slit, and a couple of paper-card > > models were then made up. > > > > The reason I'm posting this info again now, is that as far as I > could > > tell, with the exception of the stem being more curved in profile > (a > > necessary consequence of the method ?), the Origami Wylo hull form > > looked practically identical to that of the Swain hull form (up to > > deck level). Certainly, I couldn't see enough difference by eye to > > warrant working-up a new design with all that that entails. > > > > Hope this is of passing interest, and that someone is motivated > > enough to replicate this procedure - 'cause it's really great fun ! > > > > Colin | 5736|5582|2004-10-02 04:59:12|Gerd|Re: fresh water scuppers|Colin, when doing the first drawings for YAGO I have played around quite a bit with different deck-layout. Just a few things to add to your decision making: raised deck and VCG - this is true but very small, actually it's just the area of the side-decks that move up to the level of the cabin-top, the cabin sides just mofe outwards at the same height to the sheerline. a more important drawback: when rolled to 180, the wider cabin hull will be more "stable", and offer more resistance to coming back up. space: the interior volume that you win can not really be used for storage, obviously, as that will again raise the VCG, but it gives you the _feeling_ of a boat twice as big, or to be precise, of a boat on which the cabin alone would be as wide as your beam ;-) that makes an enormous difference. security on deck - I know that everybody considers sidedecks and cabin "safer". My personal experience makes me see that differently. My last boat, a 10 m, was completely flush-deck, not even a proper cockpit. It is true that this makes you feel more exposed, and this time at least I get a proper cockpit sheltered behind the cabin/deck. But after getting used to a big working area, free uncluttered and with the posibility to walk freely everywhere, I would today consider this much "safer" than having to climb and sqeeze past and over and - in lee - under cabin trunks. Also: the camber of the deck to windward gives a flat, even area. Under the wind it's then quite steep, but with good high toerail at least you have not the cliff of the cabin-side above you trying to kick you out... you can actually stand on the bulwarks in lee, you backside on the deck, that is MUCH more stable and comfortable than any position you would find on a leeward sidedeck. Working in lee on top of a cabin is outright dangerous, as it places your body'S CG above and outside of your lifelines in case of a fall. Pilothouse - the older I get, the more I like the idea, but have to say that I did not find a proper solution for a boat the size of YAGO without making too many compromises elsewhere. GOOD: The pilothouse - if light and of the strong and watertight type, will compensate for the inverted stability problem of the raised deck. Shaping the hull - yes, the absence of the side-decks makes shaping the sheerline more difficult in origami-assembly, because the angle between cabin-sides and hull is very flat and does not naturally define the horizontal position. it does work though, with very clean and fair cuts and some temporary spreaders ... I am preparing just that on YAGO right now, and it looks as if it will come together. Origami - if you go that way, it's not really worth trying to include the cabinsides/bulwarks into the hull-pattern, as they could and should be lighter material anyway. This means you can build the standard hull as per design and add that on top. Gerd The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > I think it would be theoretically possible to build a Wylo-style > raised-deck on top of a Swain hull - but there are a couple of > important caveats: the center of gravity of the hull would be raised > somewhat, although this could be offset by using either thinner > steel, or even aluminium alloy for the raised area. However, the > Swain side-decks are integral to the stiffening of the hull, and this > needs to be taken into account when considering such a radical > departure from a well tried and tested design. | 5737|5651|2004-10-02 10:07:58|Puck III|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Or if you wanne go fishing you could look at the latest pic posted , please print both TRIS out cause I wanne take those pics away ( I dont think they belong in here ) How is your design evolving ?? Let us know . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > The last pic posted in Photos is a steel tri , what are the > dimensions of the tri you want to build in Origami , you could > find some fine Passengers Cruising Boats , kind of the > " Love Boat " specs or larger . > How many passengers for how long cruises and over what > distances and at what desired cruising speed ? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie > Burr" wrote: > > "> I have searched, thus far in vain, for steel trimarans. These > results, or lack thereof, has led me to begin drafting a design of > my own. As I am not an experienced designer, the process > should take some time and could very well prove to be > unsuccessful. Then again, the results may, at least, allow for > construction in aluminum. Once I feel that I have an acceptable > design, I will be dropping my scribblings into my Father's lap, a > retired metallurgical engineer with much experience in boat/ship > building, for his analysis." > > > > A couple quick thoughts on steel trimarans. I would seriously > doubt that you would find any information steel trimarans. > Trimarans are extremely weight sensitive. Much of a multi-hull's > safety comes from keeping its weight light enough that the > energy of the wind can be disbursed as acceleration rather than > heeling. Of the common boat building materials only > ferro-cement does worse than steel on a strength to weight > basis. Aluminum, composites and various forms of wood > construction are much more suitable to trimaran construction. > Because of their extremely narrow hulls trimarans are very > adaptable to 'tortured' techniques in any of these three materials > which are closely akin to origami construction techniques, > equally as fast and probably less expensive than steel for such > narrow hull forms. > > > > With regards to the New Zealand safety inspections, an auditor > report after two years showed a somewhere between a 30% and > 40% decrease in the number of rescues that were required. It > also indicated a drop in minor calls for help and a higher > success rate in the cases where rescue was necessary. I > thought taht sounded like a pretty dramatic set of results. NZ > claims that the inspection program actually costs them more > money to operate than the result of the inspection fees (which > originally were higher) but that the reatly reduced number of > rescues way more than offsets the cost of the inspection > program. That said, I know that they were getting a lot of > international flack so I don't know if the program is still in place. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5738|5726|2004-10-02 14:34:54|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Book Delivery Time?|I mailed it off a few days ago. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > Sent off for Brent's book over two weeks ago. > How long should it take? > Address is in Florida. > Fred | 5739|5582|2004-10-02 14:39:18|brentswain38|Re: fresh water scuppers|Raising the decks to the cabintop level also involves adding over 700 lbs of topsides to the hull plate and raising the cockpit and cockpit seats. It would make an extremely unstable boat.It involves raising over 400 lbs of side deck and foredeck plate roughly a foot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Colin, when doing the first drawings for YAGO I have played around > quite a bit with different deck-layout. Just a few things to add to > your decision making: > > raised deck and VCG - this is true but very small, actually it's > just the area of the side-decks that move up to the level of the > cabin-top, the cabin sides just mofe outwards at the same height to > the sheerline. > > a more important drawback: when rolled to 180, the wider cabin hull > will be more "stable", and offer more resistance to coming back up. > > space: the interior volume that you win can not really be used for > storage, obviously, as that will again raise the VCG, but it gives > you the _feeling_ of a boat twice as big, or to be precise, of a > boat on which the cabin alone would be as wide as your beam ;-) that > makes an enormous difference. > > security on deck - I know that everybody considers sidedecks and > cabin "safer". My personal experience makes me see that > differently. My last boat, a 10 m, was completely flush-deck, not > even a proper cockpit. It is true that this makes you feel more > exposed, and this time at least I get a proper cockpit sheltered > behind the cabin/deck. But after getting used to a big working area, > free uncluttered and with the posibility to walk freely everywhere, > I would today consider this much "safer" than having to climb and > sqeeze past and over and - in lee - under cabin trunks. Also: the > camber of the deck to windward gives a flat, even area. Under the > wind it's then quite steep, but with good high toerail at least you > have not the cliff of the cabin-side above you trying to kick you > out... you can actually stand on the bulwarks in lee, you backside > on the deck, that is MUCH more stable and comfortable than any > position you would find on a leeward sidedeck. Working in lee on top > of a cabin is outright dangerous, as it places your body'S CG above > and outside of your lifelines in case of a fall. > > Pilothouse - the older I get, the more I like the idea, but have to > say that I did not find a proper solution for a boat the size of > YAGO without making too many compromises elsewhere. GOOD: The > pilothouse - if light and of the strong and watertight type, will > compensate for the inverted stability problem of the raised deck. > > Shaping the hull - yes, the absence of the side-decks makes shaping > the sheerline more difficult in origami-assembly, because the angle > between cabin-sides and hull is very flat and does not naturally > define the horizontal position. it does work though, with very clean > and fair cuts and some temporary spreaders ... I am preparing just > that on YAGO right now, and it looks as if it will come together. > > Origami - if you go that way, it's not really worth trying to > include the cabinsides/bulwarks into the hull-pattern, as they could > and should be lighter material anyway. This means you can build the > standard hull as per design and add that on top. > > Gerd > The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > I think it would be theoretically possible to build a Wylo-style > > raised-deck on top of a Swain hull - but there are a couple of > > important caveats: the center of gravity of the hull would be > raised > > somewhat, although this could be offset by using either thinner > > steel, or even aluminium alloy for the raised area. However, the > > Swain side-decks are integral to the stiffening of the hull, and > this > > needs to be taken into account when considering such a radical > > departure from a well tried and tested design. | 5740|5730|2004-10-02 14:54:09|seeratlas|Re: specs on BSwain 40|Thanks a bunch for the numbers:) Time to start up my 'swag' sliderule heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I think I may be interested in Brent's 40 footer in steel and would > > appreciate it if any of you that are building it or have purchased > > plans for it, can give me some idea of the .. > > 1. LWL > > 2. Beam > > 2. designed draft for the bilge keel model > > 3. designed displacement at whatever load he has specified in the plans. > > From Brent's book: > > LOA 40' 0" > LWL 36' 0" > BEAM 11' 10" > DRAFT 6' 5" (FIN KEEL) 4' 9" (BILGE KEEL) > DISPLACEMENT 25,000 LBS > KEEL WT 7,500 LBS (I think it reads) | 5741|5741|2004-10-02 15:05:57|seeratlas|Corten Steel|In my search through the group, I didn't find a reference to the plus/minus of using Corten steel? From what I've heard, the initial cost is only slightly higher, the strength substantially increased and the resistance to corrosion about 4x the more normal mild steel. I was wondering whether Corten could be used in the decks/trunk cabin and pilot house to save some weight by using slightly thinner but still stronger plate or is the gain so slight that it's not worth fooling with? any comments welcome. seer| 5742|5582|2004-10-02 16:14:11|Gerd|Re: fresh water scuppers|No Brent - it does not add 700 lbs, at least not on Yago. Only the area next to the cabin is raised, cockpit and foredeck remain exactly the same, in the same place and of the same weight as with a cabin trunk. Continuing the cabintop to the hull sides simply moves the existing cabin-sides outward, and actually due to the camber they are lower there than the cabinsides would be with sidedecks, meaning they are smaller in surface and thus LIGHTER like than they would be in case of a trunk cabin. So what is really raised is only the sidedecks proper, in the case of Yago by about 25 cm. Gerd The YAGO project at hettp://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Raising the decks to the cabintop level also involves adding over 700 > lbs of topsides to the hull plate and raising the cockpit and cockpit > seats. It would make an extremely unstable boat.It involves raising > over 400 lbs of side deck and foredeck plate roughly a foot. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Colin, when doing the first drawings for YAGO I have played around > > quite a bit with different deck-layout. Just a few things to add to > > your decision making: > > > > raised deck and VCG - this is true but very small, actually it's > > just the area of the side-decks that move up to the level of the > > cabin-top, the cabin sides just mofe outwards at the same height to > > the sheerline. > > > > a more important drawback: when rolled to 180, the wider cabin hull > > will be more "stable", and offer more resistance to coming back up. > > > > space: the interior volume that you win can not really be used for > > storage, obviously, as that will again raise the VCG, but it gives > > you the _feeling_ of a boat twice as big, or to be precise, of a > > boat on which the cabin alone would be as wide as your beam ;-) > that > > makes an enormous difference. > > > > security on deck - I know that everybody considers sidedecks and > > cabin "safer". My personal experience makes me see that > > differently. My last boat, a 10 m, was completely flush-deck, not > > even a proper cockpit. It is true that this makes you feel more > > exposed, and this time at least I get a proper cockpit sheltered > > behind the cabin/deck. But after getting used to a big working > area, > > free uncluttered and with the posibility to walk freely everywhere, > > I would today consider this much "safer" than having to climb and > > sqeeze past and over and - in lee - under cabin trunks. Also: the > > camber of the deck to windward gives a flat, even area. Under the > > wind it's then quite steep, but with good high toerail at least you > > have not the cliff of the cabin-side above you trying to kick you > > out... you can actually stand on the bulwarks in lee, you backside > > on the deck, that is MUCH more stable and comfortable than any > > position you would find on a leeward sidedeck. Working in lee on > top > > of a cabin is outright dangerous, as it places your body'S CG above > > and outside of your lifelines in case of a fall. > > > > Pilothouse - the older I get, the more I like the idea, but have to > > say that I did not find a proper solution for a boat the size of > > YAGO without making too many compromises elsewhere. GOOD: The > > pilothouse - if light and of the strong and watertight type, will > > compensate for the inverted stability problem of the raised deck. > > > > Shaping the hull - yes, the absence of the side-decks makes shaping > > the sheerline more difficult in origami-assembly, because the angle > > between cabin-sides and hull is very flat and does not naturally > > define the horizontal position. it does work though, with very > clean > > and fair cuts and some temporary spreaders ... I am preparing just > > that on YAGO right now, and it looks as if it will come together. > > > > Origami - if you go that way, it's not really worth trying to > > include the cabinsides/bulwarks into the hull-pattern, as they > could > > and should be lighter material anyway. This means you can build the > > standard hull as per design and add that on top. > > > > Gerd > > The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > wrote: > > > > > I think it would be theoretically possible to build a Wylo- style > > > raised-deck on top of a Swain hull - but there are a couple of > > > important caveats: the center of gravity of the hull would be > > raised > > > somewhat, although this could be offset by using either thinner > > > steel, or even aluminium alloy for the raised area. However, the > > > Swain side-decks are integral to the stiffening of the hull, and > > this > > > needs to be taken into account when considering such a radical > > > departure from a well tried and tested design. | 5743|5741|2004-10-02 18:17:47|fmichael graham|Re: Corten Steel|Seer: There have been discussions on the use of Corten, including some cautionary notes on same. You could probably find this information in the archives, if you have a lot of time on your hands. Regards, Mike seeratlas wrote: In my search through the group, I didn't find a reference to the plus/minus of using Corten steel? From what I've heard, the initial cost is only slightly higher, the strength substantially increased and the resistance to corrosion about 4x the more normal mild steel. I was wondering whether Corten could be used in the decks/trunk cabin and pilot house to save some weight by using slightly thinner but still stronger plate or is the gain so slight that it's not worth fooling with? any comments welcome. seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5744|5420|2004-10-02 19:00:17|Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy|Re: Welding of steel boats|Hello, Thank you for sharing your experience with learning welding. Is a ticket a welding certificate? What sort of power tools do you all use for cleaning the metal and grinding welds? I greatly appreciate all the info and advice on this magical art. I've just starting learning, the big thing I've learned so far is how little I know and I couldn't agree more with whoever mentioned that its not so much an intellectual learning as getting the hand/eye coordination together; patience and practice then. : ) Nicole On Sep 15, 2004, at 8:45 PM, Ben Tucker wrote: Hi All I have been learning to weld for the last 2 years, and am now at a stage where I am reasonably happy with the appearance and strength of my welds. My fist step was to buy the cheapest stick welder I could find (140 amp buzz box, worked great!) and play with it, with a few mates who could weld to get me started (they both had differnt ideas on what I was doing wrong). I quickly ran out of bits of scap steel to play with, and lost interest in just practicing alone. I saw an Adult ed course on welding and enrolled, Brillant because now I had all the rods, scap and motivation I needed to learn. The instructor would demonstrate a weld and then let us go off and do a few on our own. Watching him had given us an idea of the welding speed, amps and arc gap and sound required as well as what the finished weld should look like. Any problems and he was able to point out things like to long an arc gap, or moving to fast. We did Stick, MIG and Gas welding +gas cutting in 8 evenings. We got to use a lot of machines and at the end of the course on of the welding shop guys bought heaps of welders in for us to try out. I enjoyed the course so much that I have been enrolled a Welding course of one sort for the last 2 years doing more Stick,MIG and TIG welding. These Improved my skills on the difficult welds (vertical and overheads and full penetration) as well as theory. The format for these courses is self paced so all of the 30 or so students are doing different things. I saw a few poeple give up early on because the teachers were abit thin on the ground and couldn't really help them much getting started, because I had done the Adult ed course I was already well ahead of the game, and only needed the tutor to sign of my welds or give me a few tips on the occasional weld. I basically taught myself at my pace using the schools equipment and materials. I found that the couses had given me a good grounding but that welding on real stuff was more difficult, so any course needs to be ballanced by you acually doing stuff at home, I got my opportunity helping a freind build a timber mill out of steel, as he couldn,t weld (I sold him my cheap welder and taught him the basics)He would cut and fit the steel and I would weld it up. Now I have got a better welder, an Auto darkening� helmet and have done quite abit of work on my boat i feel I could tackle building� a Boat from scatch. I think I could have learnt it all at home or from books but I know that sitting on my own in a workshop with some scap would have boored me and I would have stopped so I am very glad of the course for keeping me going and I now have a bunch of tickets. The cost was bugger all, one of the best investments in time and money i have ever made!. Cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links � To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ � � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com � � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5745|5651|2004-10-02 19:00:48|Mike|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Ben: Interesting photo/plans. Could you post a link to where you found these? I am presently doing battle with the Rhino 3D and will have a completed perspective in about a week, time permitting. Much to my chagrin, I have never taken formalized training in CADD. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Or if you wanne go fishing you could look at the latest pic > posted , please print both TRIS out cause I wanne take those > pics away ( I dont think they belong in here ) > How is your design evolving ?? Let us know . > | 5746|5420|2004-10-02 19:11:24|Mike|Re: Welding of steel boats|Nicole: a "ticket" shows that a welder has been tested by the local bureaucrats & is "qualified" to perform welds in a specific process/position. There are a lot of methods for pre & post weld prep work. For the most part, a hand grinder, chipping hammer & wire brush will do just fine. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: > Hello, > Thank you for sharing your experience with learning welding. Is a > ticket a welding certificate? > What sort of power tools do you all use for cleaning the metal and > grinding welds? > I greatly appreciate all the info and advice on this magical art. > I've just starting learning, the big thing I've learned so far is how > little I know and I couldn't agree more with whoever mentioned that its > not so much an intellectual learning as getting the hand/eye > coordination together; patience and practice then. : ) > Nicole > > | 5747|5726|2004-10-02 20:07:52|fenixrises|Re: Brent's Book Delivery Time?|Thanks for letting me know. Fred --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I mailed it off a few days ago. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sent off for Brent's book over two weeks ago. > > How long should it take? > > Address is in Florida. > > Fred | 5748|5726|2004-10-02 21:37:46|knutfg|Re: Brent's Book Delivery Time?|I think mine took about 3 weeks??? Knut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > Sent off for Brent's book over two weeks ago. > How long should it take? > Address is in Florida. > Fred | 5749|5651|2004-10-03 08:42:12|denis buggy|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|dear Ben thanks for posting the photos , I like mike would be grateful for a web source as my plans seem to be a mixture of them both. regarding my plans and progress I know this will drive some people mad however I am progressing with my plans for my "floating Winnebago" as it has been christened and I have adopted a formula which served me well when I built my house I am designing from the inside out and making the boat fit the requirements placed on it rather than make everybody fit the boat. the requirements are as follows . in order for the project to be feasible it must have the inherent ability to maintain my interest for two years giving 15-20 hours per week , it must be therefore something for my family a second home /holiday home able to be moored where no accommodation is available and giving access to places and experiences not available through other means while a family can sleep and play and do some work without discomfort , it must be an investment . it must be capable of being beached and remaining level and it must have a hiab or similar crane on board with which we can launch /take on board craft and hook moorings and push off and remove any heavy equipment and also take a bucket seat with a wanderlead in order to transport me to the masthead in safety and comfort (sh old hiab truck mounted crane 1000 euros ) and I have a milling machine and lathe to recon . the decision on the trimaran means that I can now make the boat in more sections for final transport and assembly as the boat in its finished state is not possible to transport and the simple concept of three slim hulls must be easier to move through the water and in order to cut down on assembly time I believe three hull deep v will be easier to fabricate and give me the advantage of daggerboards with out daggerboards . two cheap 300hp diesel engines in the outriggers in order that the boat can be mavoured and taken out of trouble at sea I also have a need to get the boat where I need to be regardless of the headwind as I have limited time to do this . and daft as it seems I have invented my own arrangement for the engine rooms . each entire room 12 ft is on a hinge and will lift from the rear 3.5 ft in order that the large diameter prop will lift out of the water and allow a heavy craft with a large wetted area to make some progress and I will have access to the prop to clean it /free it while under way and under test the flexible water /fuel /hydraulic lines will pivot the required amount without stress at the hinge ( engine gearbox and thrust bearing and prop in a box with a hinge on one end and ram lifted on the other end ) the sails will be junk rigged with a sliding masthead to be raised to the top of the mast t piece with sail attached and wound on to a drum/pole when down. the base of the mast would rotate as per aerorig sails by hydraulic rams moved by a imple hand/ foot pump which can supply 10/15 tons pressure easily as per my bodywork portapower pump unit present cost 200 euros . the only way I can do this is to make a rough model and weigh the frame and sheeting as these values are known on paper and load the model to these values at 1/10th scale and look at its behaviour in the water and modify to evolve . if i could come accross a existing boat of similar proportions it would give me a great headstart as you would not stray too far from the values established . what is not known in general is the huge movement to mobile accommodation worldwide . this is visible in the rv market where buses are converted to mobile homes sometimes sadly by elderly people who wish to realise their property and live nomadic lives in a different climates throughout the year . I know that the plans for a mobile home on the water do not exist in a assembly form in the way that I consider with absolutely no experience of the sea to be workable and if I could contribute to the requirements of others I would be delighted . regards denies ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections Ben: Interesting photo/plans. Could you post a link to where you found these? I am presently doing battle with the Rhino 3D and will have a completed perspective in about a week, time permitting. Much to my chagrin, I have never taken formalized training in CADD. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Or if you wanne go fishing you could look at the latest pic > posted , please print both TRIS out cause I wanne take those > pics away ( I dont think they belong in here ) > How is your design evolving ?? Let us know . > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5750|5651|2004-10-03 11:37:40|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections|Your transverse members will be engineering marvels! ----- Original Message ----- From: denis buggy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:41 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections dear Ben thanks for posting the photos , I like mike would be grateful for a web source as my plans seem to be a mixture of them both. regarding my plans and progress I know this will drive some people mad however I am progressing with my plans for my "floating Winnebago" as it has been christened and I have adopted a formula which served me well when I built my house I am designing from the inside out and making the boat fit the requirements placed on it rather than make everybody fit the boat. the requirements are as follows . in order for the project to be feasible it must have the inherent ability to maintain my interest for two years giving 15-20 hours per week , it must be therefore something for my family a second home /holiday home able to be moored where no accommodation is available and giving access to places and experiences not available through other means while a family can sleep and play and do some work without discomfort , it must be an investment . it must be capable of being beached and remaining level and it must have a hiab or similar crane on board with which we can launch /take on board craft and hook moorings and push off and remove any heavy equipment and also take a bucket seat with a wanderlead in order to transport me to the masthead in safety and comfort (sh old hiab truck mounted crane 1000 euros ) and I have a milling machine and lathe to recon . the decision on the trimaran means that I can now make the boat in more sections for final transport and assembly as the boat in its finished state is not possible to transport and the simple concept of three slim hulls must be easier to move through the water and in order to cut down on assembly time I believe three hull deep v will be easier to fabricate and give me the advantage of daggerboards with out daggerboards . two cheap 300hp diesel engines in the outriggers in order that the boat can be mavoured and taken out of trouble at sea I also have a need to get the boat where I need to be regardless of the headwind as I have limited time to do this . and daft as it seems I have invented my own arrangement for the engine rooms . each entire room 12 ft is on a hinge and will lift from the rear 3.5 ft in order that the large diameter prop will lift out of the water and allow a heavy craft with a large wetted area to make some progress and I will have access to the prop to clean it /free it while under way and under test the flexible water /fuel /hydraulic lines will pivot the required amount without stress at the hinge ( engine gearbox and thrust bearing and prop in a box with a hinge on one end and ram lifted on the other end ) the sails will be junk rigged with a sliding masthead to be raised to the top of the mast t piece with sail attached and wound on to a drum/pole when down. the base of the mast would rotate as per aerorig sails by hydraulic rams moved by a imple hand/ foot pump which can supply 10/15 tons pressure easily as per my bodywork portapower pump unit present cost 200 euros . the only way I can do this is to make a rough model and weigh the frame and sheeting as these values are known on paper and load the model to these values at 1/10th scale and look at its behaviour in the water and modify to evolve . if i could come accross a existing boat of similar proportions it would give me a great headstart as you would not stray too far from the values established . what is not known in general is the huge movement to mobile accommodation worldwide . this is visible in the rv market where buses are converted to mobile homes sometimes sadly by elderly people who wish to realise their property and live nomadic lives in a different climates throughout the year . I know that the plans for a mobile home on the water do not exist in a assembly form in the way that I consider with absolutely no experience of the sea to be workable and if I could contribute to the requirements of others I would be delighted . regards denies ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Trimarans/NZ inspections Ben: Interesting photo/plans. Could you post a link to where you found these? I am presently doing battle with the Rhino 3D and will have a completed perspective in about a week, time permitting. Much to my chagrin, I have never taken formalized training in CADD. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Or if you wanne go fishing you could look at the latest pic > posted , please print both TRIS out cause I wanne take those > pics away ( I dont think they belong in here ) > How is your design evolving ?? Let us know . > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5751|5751|2004-10-03 12:36:33|SHANE ROTHWELL|Galling of threads whilst welding|Hi Guys, I've been fabricating small parts in what spare time I have & have been having a hell of a time with welding nuts into place. Weldinbg spatter gaulls the threads & seems the only cure is to run a tap through them... Have tried several antispatter sprays, all of which were not the greatest. tried masking tape & it just burns. I'm thinking of trying mud but then drying the exteriors & cleaning before & after welding...fiddlydiddly. Any suggestions? Thanks, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5752|5751|2004-10-03 15:30:31|woodcraftssuch|Re: Galling of threads whilst welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I've been fabricating small parts in what spare time I > have & have been having a hell of a time with welding > nuts into place. Weldinbg spatter gaulls the threads & > seems the only cure is to run a tap through them... > > Have tried several antispatter sprays, all of which > were not the greatest. > > tried masking tape & it just burns. > > I'm thinking of trying mud but then drying the > exteriors & cleaning before & after > welding...fiddlydiddly. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > Shane > Maybe stick a wooden dowel in them before welding_______________________________________________________________ ______ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5753|5751|2004-10-03 17:05:06|woodcraftssuch|Re: Galling of threads whilst welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > I've been fabricating small parts in what spare time I > > have & have been having a hell of a time with welding > > nuts into place. Weldinbg spatter gaulls the threads & > > seems the only cure is to run a tap through them... > > > > Have tried several antispatter sprays, all of which > > were not the greatest. > > > > tried masking tape & it just burns. > > > > I'm thinking of trying mud but then drying the > > exteriors & cleaning before & after > > welding...fiddlydiddly. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks, > > Shane > > > > Maybe stick a wooden dowel in them before > welding_______________________________________________________________ > ______ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Or a bolt.| 5754|5751|2004-10-03 17:23:17|fmichael graham|Re: Galling of threads whilst welding|Shane: A bit more information, please. Are you using stick or wire? If stick, AC or DC(RP orSP), which rod, etc.? What are you welding nuts onto? Just guessing from your info; weld nuts with bolt in nut, remove bolt while nut is still hot(before it contracts). Maybe, WD40 the bolt before inserting in nut prior to welding. I am surprised that you are getting that much spatter - which is why I ask about your welding parameters. Perhaps, your running at too high a current(excessive spatter is a sign of this). What type/size of nuts? Pre-heating the nut & area to which it will be welded is advantageous, however, you do not want to deform the nut or weld it in it's expanded state. Uniform cooling will help to reduce distortion through "length" of nut. If possible, a second nut could be threaded on to "lock" the thread and, as it has not been subjected to weld heat, would be a better fit to the bolt/threaded shaft/etc. . Hope this helps, Mike SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: Hi Guys, I've been fabricating small parts in what spare time I have & have been having a hell of a time with welding nuts into place. Weldinbg spatter gaulls the threads & seems the only cure is to run a tap through them... Have tried several antispatter sprays, all of which were not the greatest. tried masking tape & it just burns. I'm thinking of trying mud but then drying the exteriors & cleaning before & after welding...fiddlydiddly. Any suggestions? Thanks, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5755|5751|2004-10-03 19:12:22|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Galling of threads whilst welding|Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Galling of threads whilst welding I normally hold the nut in place with either a mild steel screw or a stainless screw --- using the opposite of the nut material as applicable. If you can access a TIG setup, it is so much easier to do this job without problems of the sort you indicate. Nuts don't need massive tacks to do the position/torque task and certainly only two opposing effective tacks is sufficient. Terry --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I've been fabricating small parts in what spare time I > have & have been having a hell of a time with welding > nuts into place. Weldinbg spatter gaulls the threads & > seems the only cure is to run a tap through them... > > Have tried several antispatter sprays, all of which > were not the greatest. > > tried masking tape & it just burns. > > I'm thinking of trying mud but then drying the > exteriors & cleaning before & after > welding...fiddlydiddly. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > Shane > Maybe stick a wooden dowel in them before welding_______________________________________________________________ ______ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5756|5582|2004-10-03 19:24:07|Ben Tucker|Re: fresh water scuppers|Hi I was suprised with how secure the raised deck on my friends 29 foot gaffer felt, particularly when working on the lee deck, feet chocked in the toerail, the large fashion plates/bulwarks fore and aft give a real safe feel to the foredeck and aftdeck, and also make a nice place to stash stuff. Also the raised deck acts as a wavebreak, stopping the rush of water blasting along the sidedecks. The last generation of square riggers had a centre Island for this reason, and were considered safer than the earlier flush decked ships (according to Alan Villiers). They have to be carefully done to look right, and it is harder on larger boats 36+ foot to make them look right (seems to look best if you continue the sheer unbroken on larger boats, rather than trying to drop the bow and stern bulwarks), also its harder to incorporate a good pilothouse that blends in like on brents designs. cheers Ben| 5757|5757|2004-10-04 15:25:58|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: [ Galling of threads whilst Welding|Thank You everyone for your suggestions I am using a miller 175 MIG and yesterday got decent results using a bolt & covering up all exposed threads on it with additional nuts. Fiddly but it works. Before was using vice grips to hold nuts in place, giving it a good douche with antispatter spray (results of antispatter spray were poor at best). will be trying playdough next, just a mixture of flower, H2o & lots of salt Yes, a TIG would be nice but a MIG is what i've got (& from what i've heard, TIG is closer to an art form..) Thanks again Lads, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5758|5757|2004-10-04 17:46:00|kendall|Re: [ Galling of threads whilst Welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Thank You everyone for your suggestions > > I am using a miller 175 MIG and yesterday got decent > results using a bolt & covering up all exposed threads > on it with additional nuts. Fiddly but it works. > > Before was using vice grips to hold nuts in place, > giving it a good douche with antispatter spray > (results of antispatter spray were poor at best). > > will be trying playdough next, just a mixture of > flower, H2o & lots of salt > > Yes, a TIG would be nice but a MIG is what i've got (& > from what i've heard, TIG is closer to an art form..) > > Thanks again Lads, > Shane use a brass bolt long enough to make a decent handle, run a short chunk of brake line or some thing down on it, run a brass nut to lock that in place, file the flats off the nut, leaving it large enough to cover the hole, and the threads off the end of the bolt and then just slip the nut you want to weld on that, hold it in place with one hand, weld it, pull the brass bolt out. or a brass rod, with a smaller diameter turned on the end to do the same thing. merc.| 5759|5757|2004-10-04 18:49:16|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: [ Galling of threads whilst Welding|What Merc. said. However, I use pure copper instead of brass. Also have several copper paddles and V shapes to start or stop welds. Gerald > use a brass bolt long enough to make a decent handle, run a short > chunk of brake line or some thing down on it, run a brass nut to lock > that in place, file the flats off the nut, leaving it large enough to > cover the hole, and the threads off the end of the bolt and then just > slip the nut you want to weld on that, hold it in place with one hand, > weld it, pull the brass bolt out. or a brass rod, with a smaller > diameter turned on the end to do the same thing. > > merc. | 5760|1761|2004-10-04 21:27:20|tronfixr|Re: Electrolysis|Thanks Colin, I think the confusion is common and I would relate it to grounding which seems to have a lot of misconceptions as well (a 'ground' wire can have current and generate noise simply from it's own internal resistance. It should not be grounded at both ends). From what I have read, my impression is that the processes is the same. Whether active or passive, it all boils down to an electro-chemical activity. It is just the electrolites that change. Bimetalic could simply be viewed as another battery (or source of current) which has it's own corrisive activity as well as contributing (or preventing in the case of zinc/steel) to the corrosive activity of the parent object. Chemistry isn't my speciality so my take on it may be in error. My guess is all the activity (materials dissolved and/or corroding) in the harbor is/are creating various pockets of differences in potential (or potential wells). An electrolite soup that is not uniform, if you will. Because the water isn't consistent in it's conductive properties (such as a wire which is)and has resistance, you could possibly be parked in a 'hot' spot that would create a large difference of potential between the boat hull and where ever the 'potential well' is located. Imagine the boat as one plate of a battery and the 'well' as being other plates in this same battery. The connection would be through the electrolite to other wells. At this point, I would imagine capacitance also plays a part, but I think that discussion may just muddy the waters- so to speak. Another consideration is the nylon lines. They could be a conductor as well. Pure water and nylon is a reasonable insulator but add some acid rain, salt spray, and dirt from being handled and I would expect a few mA could find it a good path. Enough wells and throw in some stray currents through the dirty nylon lines and it sounds like a recipe for some real electrical fun!! There was also a mention of bonding thru hulls in glass boats. I think the idea there is to get all thru hulls to the same potential so you don't need a zinc on every one. This is where good grounding principals are critical as you can aggrivate the problem rather than fix it. I'm writing this at 14,000 ft so I hope it makes some sense. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Mike > > > If this is not an open forum, apologies... > > Certainly this is very much an open forum - all input welcomed !! > > > "Corrosion is an electrochemical reaction based on universal laws of > nature. All metallic structures corrode. It is just a question of how > quickly. > > No problem with that as a general statement. > > > Steel, for example, is a man made substance produced from iron > oxide. The energy added in the refining process is unstable. Given a > suitable environment, steel will release this energy and return to > its natural state of iron ore. > > No problem with that either. Although it would have been helpful to > point out that steel is an alloy of iron and carbon (and often other > stuff) which is why mild steel will passively corrode at a higher > rate than pure iron. > > > When immersed in an electrolyte, such as > soil,water, or concrete, metals produce a current which causes ions to > leave their surface. The rate of current flow determines the life of > the structure. One ampere of current consumes approximately 20 pounds > of iron per year." > > Now this part of the quote is where simplification doesn't help > much. There's a world of practical difference (even if the > underlying chemistry is the same) between the passive oxidation of a > bare steel surface in contact with an electrolyte such as seawater, > and the accelerated corrosion caused by the galvanic potential > created when dissimilar metals are connected in the presence of an > electrolyte. Even worse is the situation where an adverse external > current is being applied. > It's being suggested that the situation in Newport harbour is being > caused by the latter of these - but in order for an electrical > current to flow, it has to flow *around* something, and this is where > I simply don't 'get it', for if our hull is floating on the end of a > nylon rode (say), and not connected electrically to shore - then how > is it becoming part of the circuit, and thus being subjected to an > advanced rate of electrolytic decomposition/corrosion/oxidation ? > > Think in terms of birds sitting on power lines, or people protected > by Faraday cages during million volt discharges: these individuals > don't come to any harm - despite the tremendous voltages and currents > around them - precisely because they are not part of the electrical > circuit. > > [To be pendantic, the quote is actually wrong. Metals don't produce > a current which causes ionic movement. The reverse is true. The ions > exist first (usually in the form of a chemically 'crystalline' > lattice) - it is their flow through an electrolyte or other conductor > which *becomes* the current.] > > > > A web search of Cathodic Protection, impressed current cathodic > protection, or galvanic corrosion, should produce similar results. > This seemed the most basic explaination I could find. Mike > > Many thanks for digging this stuff up Mike. Maybe I should have added > in a previous post that I have a reasonable theoretical knowledge of > the chemistry and electrical principles involved in electrolysis, > which is why the situation at Newport is puzzling me - it's almost as > if something is being overlooked or not being mentioned, kinda like > as if a piece of a jigsaw is missing. > > Best regards > > Colin | 5761|22|2004-10-05 12:22:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /LBB_01PG.JPG Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : preliminary for a frameless aluminum trailersailer You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/LBB_01PG.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 5762|5582|2004-10-05 14:15:47|Puck III|Re: fresh water scuppers|Hi Ben , what's your friend boat ? Maurice Griffith and Thomas Gilmer designed some real pretty raised deck boats ( Wooden Boats building school has build a real fine Gilmer " Calypso " ) I will post a photo how to easely integrate a pilothouse on such a boat . I hope you liked the latest Photos and File I posted for info you will find much more in the almost full repository group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ even the Calypso design :-) Personaly I favor the " Houari Militaire " as a Gaffrig , certainly for a cruising boat , and I love boats with center,side or outerboards cause I believe it ads much pleasure and safety , and going where others can't is always rewarding . On the other hand designing such a boat aint that easy , and experience is what went wrong and what's realy working :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > > Hi > > I was suprised with how secure the raised deck on my friends 29 foot > gaffer felt, particularly when working on the lee deck, feet chocked > in the toerail, the large fashion plates/bulwarks fore and aft give a > real safe feel to the foredeck and aftdeck, and also make a nice > place to stash stuff. > > Also the raised deck acts as a wavebreak, stopping the rush of water > blasting along the sidedecks. The last generation of square riggers > had a centre Island for this reason, and were considered safer than > the earlier flush decked ships (according to Alan Villiers). > > They have to be carefully done to look right, and it is harder on > larger boats 36+ foot to make them look right (seems to look best if > you continue the sheer unbroken on larger boats, rather than trying > to drop the bow and stern bulwarks), also its harder to incorporate a > good pilothouse that blends in like on brents designs. > > cheers > > Ben | 5763|5763|2004-10-05 15:41:47|fenixrises|9200 LB. RATCHETING LOAD BINDER|Hi all, Found this at Harbor Frieght. Thought it might be a good tool for pulling together boats. @ $25 USD it is about the same price as a cheapie wire come along. Chain and chain hooks can make it any lenght required. 9200lb rating should mean it is hell for stout. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=5511 Take care, Fred| 5765|5765|2004-10-05 18:21:22|sae140|RCD and the Lydia-B|So where to start ? The European RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) began it's life on 16th June 1994 and came into force on the same date 2 years later. There was a further 2 year transitional period before the directive became fully binding. It applies to recreational craft between 2.5m and 24m hull length. For the majority of ordinary sailing folk of modest means and home- builders within Europe this didn't cause too many sleepness nights, as this legislation incorporates a number of exemptions - such as those craft "in service" prior to the enforcement date of June 1998 (so who can afford - or would want - to buy a new boat anyway ?), and all home-built boats "providing they are not placed on the market with 5 years of their construction". So as this legislation wouldn't affect most of us in any significant way, we simply yawned, rolled over and went back to sleep. The case of the Lydia-B however, has caused something of a storm over here, and has certainly motivated me to actually download and read the full RCD for the first time. Like most pieces of legislation, after being drawn up and passed, it has had to have an even larger volume of words written to accompany it to explain exactly what the legislation is intended to do in practice. For those interested, one principle source of the 'RCD plus guidance document' can be found at: http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/recreat.html The .pdf file you want (and from which I quote here) is: http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ maritime_regulatory/doc/ccpaper_2nd_edition_en_nov_03.pdf An additional source of info re: interpretation can be found at: http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ maritime_regulatory/doc/rsg_guide_2003r3.pdf (sorry - you'll have to paste the full links) Some folk 'on the other side of the pond' have expressed concerns over the RCD. To put their minds at rest, the RCD only applies to craft already in service or intended for normal service within European waters. It does not apply to visiting recreational craft. Viz: "Tourist Boats:" "It is not the intention of the Directive to restrict the free movement of persons. Therefore, boats temporarily put into service in the EEA for reasons of tourism or passage, lie outside the scope of the Directive's requirements. For these boats local usage requirements and bylaws would be applicable." As the RCD directly affects the importation into Europe of craft with which we are concerned within this group, I have extracted a few pertinent quotes/comments from the above reference .pdf files. The RCD *does not* apply to: "Craft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a period of five years." "A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage or garden, for example), from materials bought on the open market is deemed to be "building a boat for his own use". This boat lies outside of the Directive and does not require compliance with the essential requirements and thus CE Marking." "It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or individual constructor to build a one-off boat (bespoke) is deemed to have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of ownership. Such a boat is deemed to fall under the Directive ..." "Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building their own boat and not having it built by others." "As a person building a boat for own use shall not have it built by others, a kit boat cannot be considered as amateur built. Hence kit boats of length 2.5 - 24m are covered by the RCD." Thus it *may* also apply to home-built hulls made from professionally- cut materials (i.e. by CNC), as the hull is then not 100% home-built (??) However, "This does not preclude the sub-contracting, by the builder, of specialists in certain aspects of the fitting out of the boat e.g. electrical or electronic engineers." The RCD *does* apply to partly completed boats, defined as "a boat consisting of a hull or a hull and one or more components ..." As I read it - this is regardless of whether the hull was professionally-built or home-built, as in either case a transfer of ownership is taking place prior to the boat being placed into service. Ok - so what happened to the Lydia-B ? Ian Laval (a UK citizen who purchased a boat 'abroad' and then brought it back into the European Economic Area (EEA)) ran foul of the following: "A boat owner who has bought a new boat or a used boat in a third country and returns the boat by whatever means to the EEA territory and places that boat into service, for the first time in the EEA, will be subject to the requirements of the Directive. In addition, used boats from third countries that are put into service for the first time in the EEA territory also fall under the scope of the Directive, except where these boats were originally constructed in the EEA. This means that the owner of a boat from a third country shall ensure that his boat complies with the Directive when the boat is first put into service." "Comment:" "An owner who buys a boat in a third country (whether new or second hand) and sails to EEA territory, or returns an existing boat to EEA territory, is considered to be an importer, except if the boat had been placed on the Community market or put into service within the Community before the 16 of June 1998. At the time of putting into service the provisions of the Directive become applicable under the heading "second hand boat imported from a third country"." "Comment: Importer" "The term "importer" is not used explicitly in the Directive. However, it is a term that should be defined to clarify the exact meaning and to avoid confusion with the authorised representative as these are frequently thought to be interchangeable. The importer is the person who places on the EEA market and puts into service the product that is covered by the Directive and imported from a third country. Unlike the authorised representative, the importer has no preferential relationship with the manufacturer in the third country." "If a product is manufactured or imported from a third country for the manufacturer's or importer's own use, there is confusion between placing on the market and putting into service. The obligation of conformity with the Directive arises at the time of the first use." So - it seems that you can build yourself a leaky old tub over here which is patently unseaworthy, and after 5 years of being parked on the hard, you can then quite legally sell it to some poor unsuspecting mug. But - if you try and import the finest craft from the finest foreign yard, it will require at minimum an extensive commercial survey before being granted a CE sticker - on pain of a £5000 fine - even if you have imported the boat for your own private use, and it will never be offered for sale on the open market. Crazy. Ok - I think that's enough. If anyone needs to know more, then I suggest you read the full directive after taking a couple of Aspirin or the tranquiliser of your choice. Colin| 5766|5765|2004-10-05 19:25:18|fenixrises|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|Hi all, Sad to say that when it comes right down to the bottom line... We have done this to ourselves. Take care, Fred "sae140" wrote: > > So where to start ? > > The European RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) began it's life on > 16th June 1994 and came into force on the same date 2 years later. > There was a further 2 year transitional period before the directive > became fully binding. It applies to recreational craft between 2.5m > and 24m hull length. > > For the majority of ordinary sailing folk of modest means and home- > builders within Europe this didn't cause too many sleepness nights, > as this legislation incorporates a number of exemptions - such as > those craft "in service" prior to the enforcement date of June 1998 > (so who can afford - or would want - to buy a new boat anyway ?), > and all home-built boats "providing they are not placed on the market > with 5 years of their construction". So as this legislation wouldn't > affect most of us in any significant way, we simply yawned, rolled > over and went back to sleep. > > The case of the Lydia-B however, has caused something of a storm over > here, and has certainly motivated me to actually download and read > the full RCD for the first time. Like most pieces of legislation, > after being drawn up and passed, it has had to have an even larger > volume of words written to accompany it to explain exactly what the > legislation is intended to do in practice. > > For those interested, one principle source of the 'RCD plus guidance > document' can be found at: http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/recreat.html > The .pdf file you want (and from which I quote here) is: > http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ > maritime_regulatory/doc/ccpaper_2nd_edition_en_nov_03.pdf > > An additional source of info re: interpretation can be found at: > http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ > maritime_regulatory/doc/rsg_guide_2003r3.pdf > > (sorry - you'll have to paste the full links) > > Some folk 'on the other side of the pond' have expressed concerns > over the RCD. To put their minds at rest, the RCD only applies to > craft already in service or intended for normal service within > European waters. It does not apply to visiting recreational craft. > Viz: > "Tourist Boats:" > "It is not the intention of the Directive to restrict the free > movement of persons. Therefore, boats temporarily put into service in > the EEA for reasons of tourism or passage, lie outside the scope of > the Directive's requirements. For these boats local usage > requirements and bylaws would be applicable." > > > As the RCD directly affects the importation into Europe of craft with > which we are concerned within this group, I have extracted a few > pertinent quotes/comments from the above reference .pdf files. > > The RCD *does not* apply to: "Craft built for own use, provided that > they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a > period of five years." > > "A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage > or garden, for example), from materials bought on the open market is > deemed to be "building a boat for his own use". This boat lies > outside of the Directive and does not require compliance with the > essential requirements and thus CE Marking." > > "It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a > contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or > individual constructor to build a one-off boat (bespoke) is deemed to > have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of > ownership. Such a boat is deemed to fall under the Directive ..." > > "Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building > their own boat and not having it built by others." > "As a person building a boat for own use shall not have it built by > others, a kit boat cannot be considered as amateur built. Hence kit > boats of length 2.5 - 24m are covered by the RCD." > Thus it *may* also apply to home-built hulls made from professionally- > cut materials (i.e. by CNC), as the hull is then not 100% home- built > (??) > However, "This does not preclude the sub-contracting, by the builder, > of specialists in certain aspects of the fitting out of the boat e.g. > electrical or electronic engineers." > > The RCD *does* apply to partly completed boats, defined as "a boat > consisting of a hull or a hull and one or more components ..." > As I read it - this is regardless of whether the hull was > professionally-built or home-built, as in either case a transfer of > ownership is taking place prior to the boat being placed into service. > > Ok - so what happened to the Lydia-B ? Ian Laval (a UK citizen who > purchased a boat 'abroad' and then brought it back into the European > Economic Area (EEA)) ran foul of the following: > > "A boat owner who has bought a new boat or a used boat in a third > country and returns the boat by whatever means to the EEA territory > and places that boat into service, for the first time in the EEA, > will be subject to the requirements of the Directive. > In addition, used boats from third countries that are put into > service for the first time in the EEA territory also fall under the > scope of the Directive, except where these boats were originally > constructed in the EEA. This means that the owner of a boat from a > third country shall ensure that his boat complies with the Directive > when the boat is first put into service." > > "Comment:" > "An owner who buys a boat in a third country (whether new or second > hand) and sails to EEA territory, or returns an existing boat to EEA > territory, is considered to be an importer, except if the boat had > been placed on the Community market or put into service within the > Community before the 16 of June 1998. At the time of putting into > service the provisions of the Directive become applicable under the > heading "second hand boat imported from a third country"." > > "Comment: Importer" > "The term "importer" is not used explicitly in the Directive. > However, it is a term that should be defined to clarify the exact > meaning and to avoid confusion with the authorised representative as > these are frequently thought to be interchangeable. > The importer is the person who places on the EEA market and puts into > service the product that is covered by the Directive and imported > from a third country. Unlike the authorised representative, the > importer has no preferential relationship with the manufacturer in > the third country." > > "If a product is manufactured or imported from a third country for > the manufacturer's or importer's own use, there is confusion between > placing on the market and putting into service. The obligation of > conformity with the Directive arises at the time of the first use." > > > So - it seems that you can build yourself a leaky old tub over here > which is patently unseaworthy, and after 5 years of being parked on > the hard, you can then quite legally sell it to some poor > unsuspecting mug. > But - if you try and import the finest craft from the finest foreign > yard, it will require at minimum an extensive commercial survey > before being granted a CE sticker - on pain of a £5000 fine - even if > you have imported the boat for your own private use, and it will > never be offered for sale on the open market. Crazy. > > Ok - I think that's enough. If anyone needs to know more, then I > suggest you read the full directive after taking a couple of Aspirin > or the tranquiliser of your choice. > > Colin | 5767|5763|2004-10-05 19:42:05|kendall|Re: 9200 LB. RATCHETING LOAD BINDER|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Found this at Harbor Frieght. > Thought it might be a good tool for pulling together boats. > @ $25 USD it is about the same price as a cheapie wire come along. > Chain and chain hooks can make it any lenght required. > 9200lb rating should mean it is hell for stout. > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=5511 > > Take care, > Fred don't know if it would actualy work that well, looks as though the pull would be too short to do anything with merc| 5768|5765|2004-10-06 03:46:12|Gerd|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|Thanks a lot, Colin, great Job, send me the bill for the aspirin ;-) Gerd| 5769|5765|2004-10-06 07:20:52|frankroskind|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|This sounds like a way of restricting competition, and might be an unfair trade practice. On the other hand, the USA will not permit the importation of cars which don't meet US specs. Since Canada adopted the metric system, their speedometers are no longer legal in the USA, so the same car often sells for much less in Canada than the USA, but cannot be imported. Further, should you be foolish enough to want a Mercedes Benz, you might find one for a much lower price in Europe than the USA, but if you want to import it you will have to make thousands of dollars of changes, including replacing the speedometer. If you replace a speedometer you reduce the market value very substantially, as dealers now treat the vehicale as havingunknown mileage, even if an affadavit wupports the trure mileage, hence the maximum loan value is diminished. MB of North America calls such cars "gray [grey for people who think british spellings are worth more] market." I think it is another case of big guys shouting "don't throw us into the briar patch," while safety agencies grant them monopolies. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sad to say that when it comes right down to the bottom line... > We have done this to ourselves. > > Take care, > Fred > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > So where to start ? > > > > The European RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) began it's life on > > 16th June 1994 and came into force on the same date 2 years later. > > There was a further 2 year transitional period before the directive > > became fully binding. It applies to recreational craft between 2.5m > > and 24m hull length. > > > > For the majority of ordinary sailing folk of modest means and home- > > builders within Europe this didn't cause too many sleepness nights, > > as this legislation incorporates a number of exemptions - such as > > those craft "in service" prior to the enforcement date of June 1998 > > (so who can afford - or would want - to buy a new boat anyway ?), > > and all home-built boats "providing they are not placed on the > market > > with 5 years of their construction". So as this legislation > wouldn't > > affect most of us in any significant way, we simply yawned, rolled > > over and went back to sleep. > > > > The case of the Lydia-B however, has caused something of a storm > over > > here, and has certainly motivated me to actually download and read > > the full RCD for the first time. Like most pieces of legislation, > > after being drawn up and passed, it has had to have an even larger > > volume of words written to accompany it to explain exactly what the > > legislation is intended to do in practice. > > > > For those interested, one principle source of the 'RCD plus > guidance > > document' can be found at: http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/recreat.html > > The .pdf file you want (and from which I quote here) is: > > http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ > > maritime_regulatory/doc/ccpaper_2nd_edition_en_nov_03.pdf > > > > An additional source of info re: interpretation can be found at: > > http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ > > maritime_regulatory/doc/rsg_guide_2003r3.pdf > > > > (sorry - you'll have to paste the full links) > > > > Some folk 'on the other side of the pond' have expressed concerns > > over the RCD. To put their minds at rest, the RCD only applies to > > craft already in service or intended for normal service within > > European waters. It does not apply to visiting recreational craft. > > Viz: > > "Tourist Boats:" > > "It is not the intention of the Directive to restrict the free > > movement of persons. Therefore, boats temporarily put into service > in > > the EEA for reasons of tourism or passage, lie outside the scope of > > the Directive's requirements. For these boats local usage > > requirements and bylaws would be applicable." > > > > > > As the RCD directly affects the importation into Europe of craft > with > > which we are concerned within this group, I have extracted a few > > pertinent quotes/comments from the above reference .pdf files. > > > > The RCD *does not* apply to: "Craft built for own use, provided > that > > they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a > > period of five years." > > > > "A member of the general public building his own boat (in his > garage > > or garden, for example), from materials bought on the open market > is > > deemed to be "building a boat for his own use". This boat lies > > outside of the Directive and does not require compliance with the > > essential requirements and thus CE Marking." > > > > "It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a > > contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or > > individual constructor to build a one-off boat (bespoke) is deemed > to > > have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of > > ownership. Such a boat is deemed to fall under the Directive ..." > > > > "Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building > > their own boat and not having it built by others." > > "As a person building a boat for own use shall not have it built by > > others, a kit boat cannot be considered as amateur built. Hence kit > > boats of length 2.5 - 24m are covered by the RCD." > > Thus it *may* also apply to home-built hulls made from > professionally- > > cut materials (i.e. by CNC), as the hull is then not 100% home- > built > > (??) > > However, "This does not preclude the sub-contracting, by the > builder, > > of specialists in certain aspects of the fitting out of the boat > e.g. > > electrical or electronic engineers." > > > > The RCD *does* apply to partly completed boats, defined as "a boat > > consisting of a hull or a hull and one or more components ..." > > As I read it - this is regardless of whether the hull was > > professionally-built or home-built, as in either case a transfer of > > ownership is taking place prior to the boat being placed into > service. > > > > Ok - so what happened to the Lydia-B ? Ian Laval (a UK citizen who > > purchased a boat 'abroad' and then brought it back into the > European > > Economic Area (EEA)) ran foul of the following: > > > > "A boat owner who has bought a new boat or a used boat in a third > > country and returns the boat by whatever means to the EEA territory > > and places that boat into service, for the first time in the EEA, > > will be subject to the requirements of the Directive. > > In addition, used boats from third countries that are put into > > service for the first time in the EEA territory also fall under the > > scope of the Directive, except where these boats were originally > > constructed in the EEA. This means that the owner of a boat from a > > third country shall ensure that his boat complies with the > Directive > > when the boat is first put into service." > > > > "Comment:" > > "An owner who buys a boat in a third country (whether new or second > > hand) and sails to EEA territory, or returns an existing boat to > EEA > > territory, is considered to be an importer, except if the boat had > > been placed on the Community market or put into service within the > > Community before the 16 of June 1998. At the time of putting into > > service the provisions of the Directive become applicable under the > > heading "second hand boat imported from a third country"." > > > > "Comment: Importer" > > "The term "importer" is not used explicitly in the Directive. > > However, it is a term that should be defined to clarify the exact > > meaning and to avoid confusion with the authorised representative > as > > these are frequently thought to be interchangeable. > > The importer is the person who places on the EEA market and puts > into > > service the product that is covered by the Directive and imported > > from a third country. Unlike the authorised representative, the > > importer has no preferential relationship with the manufacturer in > > the third country." > > > > "If a product is manufactured or imported from a third country for > > the manufacturer's or importer's own use, there is confusion > between > > placing on the market and putting into service. The obligation of > > conformity with the Directive arises at the time of the first use." > > > > > > So - it seems that you can build yourself a leaky old tub over here > > which is patently unseaworthy, and after 5 years of being parked on > > the hard, you can then quite legally sell it to some poor > > unsuspecting mug. > > But - if you try and import the finest craft from the finest > foreign > > yard, it will require at minimum an extensive commercial survey > > before being granted a CE sticker - on pain of a £5000 fine - even > if > > you have imported the boat for your own private use, and it will > > never be offered for sale on the open market. Crazy. > > > > Ok - I think that's enough. If anyone needs to know more, then I > > suggest you read the full directive after taking a couple of > Aspirin > > or the tranquiliser of your choice. > > > > Colin | 5770|5765|2004-10-06 07:56:32|denis buggy|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|Colin excellent job on explaining the rcd. I mentioned this subject and I should have had the decency to follow through and do what you did for us all however my grey matter was not up to the job . many thanks Denis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5771|5765|2004-10-06 08:30:01|edward_stoneuk|Cabin and deck beam ends|From memory, Bruce Roberts recommended if building his boats with reduced or no transverse frames, other than the deck beams, that the ends of the deck beams be carried down the inside of the hull for 6" or so. To avoid the longitudinal deck to hull weld bead the upper part of the end has to be chamfered, which leaves less of the beam to contact the hull inside. If the beam is in before welding inside then enough has to be cut away to give access for welding. I have used mostly packers made of the same flat as the beam welded at right angles but I am not entirely happy about them. What are your views on fixing the end of transverse beams? Regards, Ted| 5772|5765|2004-10-06 08:57:15|edward_stoneuk|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|US boat manufacturers Legend (Hunter Marine) and Island Packet sell their sailboats in the UK and the European Union and so they comply with the RCD no problem. For them, the cost of compliance is shared over all the boats they sell. For the small manufacturer or importer the cost can be prohibitive. In general common standards are a good thing. Manufacturers do not have to go to the expense of researching and complying with the different standards of their different markets. For instance a minor irritation in my work is that there are two main different pipe threads in the world British Standard Pipe (BSP) and National Pipe Thread (NPT). Some sizes sort of fit, some will sort of fit with a large stilsons pipe wrench with a scaffold pole on the handle and some won't fit at all. In my work I have occasionally bought US instruments and gas blowers with NPT threads. We have to have adaptors machined up to connect them. When I was younger I had a tool box with three different sets of spanners, Metric, Whitworth and AF depending on where the equipment came from. However I ramble and digress. Regards, Ted| 5773|5773|2004-10-07 15:18:08|rob|ouestions|Questions re: BS36 1)Is there a problem with pulling the boat together with steel when it gets cold? What is the temperate if there is a problem? 2)I wanting to build a boat in the next year, I am looking for someone who also is planning to build in the next year. I have a spot in Ontario that can be shared, but I would like to build it in British Columbia but I have no location. I have no experience. I am looking to work on it fulltime for 6 months. Ideas, comments welcomed 3)I am also wondering about the way the rigging and lines are placed. What seems to be the best way?| 5774|5773|2004-10-07 15:50:08|brentswain38|Re: ouestions|Temperature has no effect. There are several possible places on Vancouver Island. One guy tried to build a boat in Ontario,near Toronto , but no one there would sell him any steel . They said that a $7,000 dollar order was too small and not worth their time, so he built in BC instead. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rob" wrote: > > Questions re: BS36 > > 1)Is there a problem with pulling the boat together with steel when > it gets cold? What is the temperate if there is a problem? > > 2)I wanting to build a boat in the next year, I am looking for > someone who also is planning to build in the next year. I have a spot > in Ontario that can be shared, but I would like to build it in > British Columbia but I have no location. I have no experience. I am > looking to work on it fulltime for 6 months. Ideas, comments welcomed > > 3)I am also wondering about the way the rigging and lines are > placed. What seems to be the best way? | 5775|5765|2004-10-07 15:56:07|brentswain38|Re: Cabin and deck beam ends|The deck support pipes at the mast and further aft make welding the ends of the deck beams to the hull unnecessary and totally redundant.Welding them to the hull would also cause distortion. The cabinsides are beams on edge, so as long as they are connected to the chine at four points , there is no possibility of any movement at the hull deck joint.The beam extensions that Roberts suggests are cantilevered, whereas deck support posts are under compression loads and are thus much stronger. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > From memory, Bruce Roberts recommended if building his boats with > reduced or no transverse frames, other than the deck beams, that the > ends of the deck beams be carried down the inside of the hull for 6" > or so. To avoid the longitudinal deck to hull weld bead the upper > part of the end has to be chamfered, which leaves less of the beam > to contact the hull inside. If the beam is in before welding inside > then enough has to be cut away to give access for welding. I have > used mostly packers made of the same flat as the beam welded at > right angles but I am not entirely happy about them. What are your > views on fixing the end of transverse beams? > Regards, > Ted | 5776|5765|2004-10-07 15:59:14|brentswain38|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|What's the difference between a bureaucrat and a trampoline? You take your shoes off to jump on a trampoline . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sad to say that when it comes right down to the bottom line... > We have done this to ourselves. > > Take care, > Fred > > > > "sae140" wrote: > > > > So where to start ? > > > > The European RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) began it's life on > > 16th June 1994 and came into force on the same date 2 years later. > > There was a further 2 year transitional period before the directive > > became fully binding. It applies to recreational craft between 2.5m > > and 24m hull length. > > > > For the majority of ordinary sailing folk of modest means and home- > > builders within Europe this didn't cause too many sleepness nights, > > as this legislation incorporates a number of exemptions - such as > > those craft "in service" prior to the enforcement date of June 1998 > > (so who can afford - or would want - to buy a new boat anyway ?), > > and all home-built boats "providing they are not placed on the > market > > with 5 years of their construction". So as this legislation > wouldn't > > affect most of us in any significant way, we simply yawned, rolled > > over and went back to sleep. > > > > The case of the Lydia-B however, has caused something of a storm > over > > here, and has certainly motivated me to actually download and read > > the full RCD for the first time. Like most pieces of legislation, > > after being drawn up and passed, it has had to have an even larger > > volume of words written to accompany it to explain exactly what the > > legislation is intended to do in practice. > > > > For those interested, one principle source of the 'RCD plus > guidance > > document' can be found at: http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/recreat.html > > The .pdf file you want (and from which I quote here) is: > > http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ > > maritime_regulatory/doc/ccpaper_2nd_edition_en_nov_03.pdf > > > > An additional source of info re: interpretation can be found at: > > http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/ > > maritime_regulatory/doc/rsg_guide_2003r3.pdf > > > > (sorry - you'll have to paste the full links) > > > > Some folk 'on the other side of the pond' have expressed concerns > > over the RCD. To put their minds at rest, the RCD only applies to > > craft already in service or intended for normal service within > > European waters. It does not apply to visiting recreational craft. > > Viz: > > "Tourist Boats:" > > "It is not the intention of the Directive to restrict the free > > movement of persons. Therefore, boats temporarily put into service > in > > the EEA for reasons of tourism or passage, lie outside the scope of > > the Directive's requirements. For these boats local usage > > requirements and bylaws would be applicable." > > > > > > As the RCD directly affects the importation into Europe of craft > with > > which we are concerned within this group, I have extracted a few > > pertinent quotes/comments from the above reference .pdf files. > > > > The RCD *does not* apply to: "Craft built for own use, provided > that > > they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a > > period of five years." > > > > "A member of the general public building his own boat (in his > garage > > or garden, for example), from materials bought on the open market > is > > deemed to be "building a boat for his own use". This boat lies > > outside of the Directive and does not require compliance with the > > essential requirements and thus CE Marking." > > > > "It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a > > contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or > > individual constructor to build a one-off boat (bespoke) is deemed > to > > have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of > > ownership. Such a boat is deemed to fall under the Directive ..." > > > > "Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building > > their own boat and not having it built by others." > > "As a person building a boat for own use shall not have it built by > > others, a kit boat cannot be considered as amateur built. Hence kit > > boats of length 2.5 - 24m are covered by the RCD." > > Thus it *may* also apply to home-built hulls made from > professionally- > > cut materials (i.e. by CNC), as the hull is then not 100% home- > built > > (??) > > However, "This does not preclude the sub-contracting, by the > builder, > > of specialists in certain aspects of the fitting out of the boat > e.g. > > electrical or electronic engineers." > > > > The RCD *does* apply to partly completed boats, defined as "a boat > > consisting of a hull or a hull and one or more components ..." > > As I read it - this is regardless of whether the hull was > > professionally-built or home-built, as in either case a transfer of > > ownership is taking place prior to the boat being placed into > service. > > > > Ok - so what happened to the Lydia-B ? Ian Laval (a UK citizen who > > purchased a boat 'abroad' and then brought it back into the > European > > Economic Area (EEA)) ran foul of the following: > > > > "A boat owner who has bought a new boat or a used boat in a third > > country and returns the boat by whatever means to the EEA territory > > and places that boat into service, for the first time in the EEA, > > will be subject to the requirements of the Directive. > > In addition, used boats from third countries that are put into > > service for the first time in the EEA territory also fall under the > > scope of the Directive, except where these boats were originally > > constructed in the EEA. This means that the owner of a boat from a > > third country shall ensure that his boat complies with the > Directive > > when the boat is first put into service." > > > > "Comment:" > > "An owner who buys a boat in a third country (whether new or second > > hand) and sails to EEA territory, or returns an existing boat to > EEA > > territory, is considered to be an importer, except if the boat had > > been placed on the Community market or put into service within the > > Community before the 16 of June 1998. At the time of putting into > > service the provisions of the Directive become applicable under the > > heading "second hand boat imported from a third country"." > > > > "Comment: Importer" > > "The term "importer" is not used explicitly in the Directive. > > However, it is a term that should be defined to clarify the exact > > meaning and to avoid confusion with the authorised representative > as > > these are frequently thought to be interchangeable. > > The importer is the person who places on the EEA market and puts > into > > service the product that is covered by the Directive and imported > > from a third country. Unlike the authorised representative, the > > importer has no preferential relationship with the manufacturer in > > the third country." > > > > "If a product is manufactured or imported from a third country for > > the manufacturer's or importer's own use, there is confusion > between > > placing on the market and putting into service. The obligation of > > conformity with the Directive arises at the time of the first use." > > > > > > So - it seems that you can build yourself a leaky old tub over here > > which is patently unseaworthy, and after 5 years of being parked on > > the hard, you can then quite legally sell it to some poor > > unsuspecting mug. > > But - if you try and import the finest craft from the finest > foreign > > yard, it will require at minimum an extensive commercial survey > > before being granted a CE sticker - on pain of a £5000 fine - even > if > > you have imported the boat for your own private use, and it will > > never be offered for sale on the open market. Crazy. > > > > Ok - I think that's enough. If anyone needs to know more, then I > > suggest you read the full directive after taking a couple of > Aspirin > > or the tranquiliser of your choice. > > > > Colin | 5777|5777|2004-10-07 16:01:42|brentswain38|Alternator welding|Colin I checked the voltage on y alternator welder. It was 92 volts at full throttle. Brent| 5778|5777|2004-10-07 16:25:40|brentswain38|Re: Alternator welding|So far the diodes are surviving. The kid I bought the alternator from said he had welded all day with one. My scotty welder was an alternator with the diodes in heatsinks and had 100% duty cycle. I asked about alternator welding on Metalboatsociety.com, under the heading "Electronics "and was given several diagrams , one of which I used. I was wondering if putting a small light bulb between the positive stinger output and the battery would increase the survival chances of the diodes.Any input from alternator experts? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Colin > I checked the voltage on y alternator welder. It was 92 volts at > full throttle. > Brent | 5779|5751|2004-10-07 16:29:23|brentswain38|Re: Galling of threads whilst welding|Always run a tap thru threads before even attempting to run a bolt thru them, The welding always shrinks the nuts.You can tack them in place with just a single thread to hold them, then take the bolt out, fully weld them , tap them out, then and only then run a bolt thru. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > I've been fabricating small parts in what spare time I > > have & have been having a hell of a time with welding > > nuts into place. Weldinbg spatter gaulls the threads & > > seems the only cure is to run a tap through them... > > > > Have tried several antispatter sprays, all of which > > were not the greatest. > > > > tried masking tape & it just burns. > > > > I'm thinking of trying mud but then drying the > > exteriors & cleaning before & after > > welding...fiddlydiddly. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks, > > Shane > > > > Maybe stick a wooden dowel in them before > welding_______________________________________________________________ > ______ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5780|5780|2004-10-07 17:30:57|l7g36145|Newsletter for origamiboats Members|I have bad credit, I am self employed and I was able to re-finance at a really low rate. I am saving hundreds a month Just fill out this simple FREE form for a quick quote simply copy and paste this link into your web browser now! http://diplender.net/?partid=rcc1 Save more of your hard earned money Raise the quality of your family's life. The time is now, be sure not to miss out. Find out why you should act now. simply copy and paste this exact link into your web browser. http://diplender.net/?partid=rcc1 This email was sent because you joined our group. If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com| 5781|5765|2004-10-07 19:30:27|Puck III|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|The same way Dutch steelcutters sell kits for pro and leasure boats all over the world , parts numbered ,pretreated so there is only the assembly and welding to take care off , and they do this at competitive prices . If its proposed for CEE approved boats all acceptance procedures and tests for selfrighting have been taken care of by the seller . The same way Hunter Marine and Island Packet does it . I posted 2 pics eurosloop 1 & 2 in photos for info . I have seen the pics of the BS 26 and I cant see why the boat would not pass those regulations and why anybody wanting to build such a boat would not comply with the regulations ,anything against peace of mind before you start ? Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > US boat manufacturers Legend (Hunter Marine) and Island Packet sell > their sailboats in the UK and the European Union and so they comply > with the RCD no problem. For them, the cost of compliance is shared > over all the boats they sell. For the small manufacturer or > importer the cost can be prohibitive. In general common standards > are a good thing. Manufacturers do not have to go to the expense of > researching and complying with the different standards of their > different markets. For instance a minor irritation in my work is > that there are two main different pipe threads in the world British > Standard Pipe (BSP) and National Pipe Thread (NPT). Some sizes sort > of fit, some will sort of fit with a large stilsons pipe wrench with > a scaffold pole on the handle and some won't fit at all. In my work > I have occasionally bought US instruments and gas blowers with NPT > threads. We have to have adaptors machined up to connect them. > When I was younger I had a tool box with three different sets of > spanners, Metric, Whitworth and AF depending on where the equipment > came from. However I ramble and digress. > > Regards, > Ted | 5782|5777|2004-10-07 19:44:53|tronfixr|Re: Alternator welding|Without a drawing of the alternator, I'd have a hard time saying. The easiest method I know is keep it cool. In electronics school (20 years ago?) they taught us that semiconductors begin to break down at about 150F. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > So far the diodes are surviving. The kid I bought the alternator from > said he had welded all day with one. My scotty welder was an > alternator with the diodes in heatsinks and had 100% duty cycle. > I asked about alternator welding on Metalboatsociety.com, under the > heading "Electronics "and was given several diagrams , one of which I > used. > I was wondering if putting a small light bulb between the positive > stinger output and the battery would increase the survival chances of > the diodes.Any input from alternator experts? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Colin > > I checked the voltage on y alternator welder. It was 92 volts at > > full throttle. > > Brent | 5783|5783|2004-10-07 21:55:27|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Cutting Steel with Skill saw|A while back there was talk of cutting steel with a skill saw & a link to an advert for a skill saw with a carbide (?) tipped blade for cutting steel. it seemed expensive at us$280/thereabouts I have an old pig of a skillsaw I was about to throuw out. I think it cost me HK$50 (about CDN$9) it's 220volt & about 9-10 amp 10" pig. Ruff as guts, but on a friends recommendation I tried putting an zip/abrasive disk in it. It cuts a treat, leaves a burr free nice clean edge & though it's not fast, maybe 8-10"/minute in 1/4" mild steel plate, it's a lot better than my cutting with a gas axe. Zip disks are about $7-8/ea. I figure you should be able to cut about 20-25' with one zipdisk (then you can use them in your grinder...) Have not tried to cut curves but with the zipdisk set to the depth of the mat'l it should work. Also, as it's going to be used with abrasive zip disks it doesn't have to be that accurate so the uglier the better, thus perhaps used tool places are the way to go as new it woudl be expensive. Oh ya, its LOWD! Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5784|5783|2004-10-07 22:07:25|fenixrises|Re: Cutting Steel with Skill saw|Hi Shane, I checked around on the internet. You can also buy just a blade. Standard 7 1/4" size. Also a ~5 1/2" and a larger diameter ~12" for cut off type saws. According to the ad the blade will cut 280' of 1/4" plate. The blade costs $40 USD for the 7" size. Fred SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > A while back there was talk of cutting steel with a > skill saw & a link to an advert for a skill saw with a > carbide (?) tipped blade for cutting steel. it seemed > expensive at us$280/thereabouts > > I have an old pig of a skillsaw I was about to throuw > out. I think it cost me HK$50 (about CDN$9) it's > 220volt & about 9-10 amp 10" pig. Ruff as guts, but on > a friends recommendation I tried putting an > zip/abrasive disk in it. > > It cuts a treat, leaves a burr free nice clean edge & > though it's not fast, maybe 8-10"/minute in 1/4" mild > steel plate, it's a lot better than my cutting with a > gas axe. Zip disks are about $7-8/ea. I figure you > should be able to cut about 20-25' with one zipdisk > (then you can use them in your grinder...) > > Have not tried to cut curves but with the zipdisk set > to the depth of the mat'l it should work. > > Also, as it's going to be used with abrasive zip disks > it doesn't have to be that accurate so the uglier the > better, thus perhaps used tool places are the way to > go as new it woudl be expensive. > > Oh ya, its LOWD! > > Cheers, > Shane > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5785|5783|2004-10-07 22:14:45|fenixrises|Re: Cutting Steel with Skill saw|Shane Here's another add for blades only. Just $23 USD for a 7 1/4" blade. http://www.maxtool.com/index/wm_carbides.asp Fred SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > A while back there was talk of cutting steel with a > skill saw & a link to an advert for a skill saw with a > carbide (?) tipped blade for cutting steel. it seemed > expensive at us$280/thereabouts > > I have an old pig of a skillsaw I was about to throuw > out. I think it cost me HK$50 (about CDN$9) it's > 220volt & about 9-10 amp 10" pig. Ruff as guts, but on > a friends recommendation I tried putting an > zip/abrasive disk in it. > > It cuts a treat, leaves a burr free nice clean edge & > though it's not fast, maybe 8-10"/minute in 1/4" mild > steel plate, it's a lot better than my cutting with a > gas axe. Zip disks are about $7-8/ea. I figure you > should be able to cut about 20-25' with one zipdisk > (then you can use them in your grinder...) > > Have not tried to cut curves but with the zipdisk set > to the depth of the mat'l it should work. > > Also, as it's going to be used with abrasive zip disks > it doesn't have to be that accurate so the uglier the > better, thus perhaps used tool places are the way to > go as new it woudl be expensive. > > Oh ya, its LOWD! > > Cheers, > Shane > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 5786|5786|2004-10-08 01:00:19|De Clarke|wind resistance and strength in tube/pipe structures on deck|OK I have a techie question for you designer/builders. it's about windage. suppose you have two possible ways to provide a certain amount of load-bearing support on deck, where windage counts: 1) use one big pipe, say 2 inch diam 2) use 2 or 3 pieces of smaller pipe, say 3/4inch, over the same run. in other words ==================== ================ | | || || || | | vs || || || | | || || || | | || || || | | || || || (imagine that the three upright pipes in version B might be arranged in a triangle at their bases for stability if a load is to be carried on top) which offers the most wind resistance? is there a rule-of-thumb for computing wind resistance in this case? and, also of interest, which offers the most strength for weight? my instinct says that a structure made of a "grid" of smaller diam pipe can be stronger for less weight (buckyballs anyone?), but structural strength is not always intuitive. my instinct says that the wind would "blow through" the more sparse structure and meet less resistance but fluid dynamics is also not always intuitive. any opinions? de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 5787|5787|2004-10-08 08:10:22|fenixrises|Paint and galvanizing questions|Hi all, 1. In Canada preprimed steel plate is available. Are the mill shapes you use for building, flat bar, angles, etc., also preprimed? 2. Since the sheer cap and stantions can be galvanized pipe are there any (dis)advantages to using mill shapes that are galvanized? 3. When the steel plate is first delivered it would be easy to prepaint the sheets with coal tar epoxy, say using an airless painter or simply rolling the paint with standard paint rollers. Possibly it would be better to wait until all the plate is cut and the angles and flat bar installed on the deck pieces and hull plates before the hull is pulled into shape. If the plate is preprimed are there any (dis) advantages to prepainting the sheet steel in this manner? 4. In an earlier post Brent said he used galvanized plate for his(?) deck. Availability, (dis)advantages when doing this? Take care, Fred| 5788|5788|2004-10-08 08:38:45|fenixrises|Boat size?|Hi all, I am contemplating the differences between Brent's 31 and 36 footer. My last boat was nearly identical, dimensionally, to Brent's 31. I found that there were times when a larger boat would have been advantageous. And times when it would not be so. Since I was single handed most of the time the size made the boat easy to handle, however increased capacity would often have been a good thing. Many of you who are building a larger boat are doing so because you NEED the room vs. WANT the room. Since my decision is not based on need, I wonder why others have made the choice based on WANT vs. NEED, what were your reasons? I often wonder why Brent, the master of minimalism, has not built a 36'? Perhaps the question answers itself. Certainly he has the ability to do so inexpensively. There are times when I think streching the 31' a couple of feet would be ideal. So Brent maybe it is time to dust off the drawing tools. ;) Take care, Fred| 5789|5788|2004-10-08 15:42:25|brentswain38|Re: Boat size?|While there is very little difference in the cost and amount of work involved between a 31 and a 36, a 36 usually sells for three times as much as a 31.Boats of all types and materials in the 30 ft range have always been far more difficult to sell than smaller or larger boats.While my 31 is adequate for my needs, the ability of the 36 to carry several years supplies would be handy sometimes. When I started my 31 I had $4,000 When I launched her a month later I had $40 so I was on a very tight budget. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am contemplating the differences between Brent's 31 and 36 footer. > My last boat was nearly identical, dimensionally, to Brent's 31. I > found that there were times when a larger boat would have been > advantageous. And times when it would not be so. Since I was single > handed most of the time the size made the boat easy to handle, > however increased capacity would often have been a good thing. > > Many of you who are building a larger boat are doing so because you > NEED the room vs. WANT the room. > Since my decision is not based on need, I wonder why others have made > the choice based on WANT vs. NEED, what were your reasons? > > I often wonder why Brent, the master of minimalism, has not built a > 36'? Perhaps the question answers itself. Certainly he has the > ability to do so inexpensively. > > There are times when I think streching the 31' a couple of feet would > be ideal. > > So Brent maybe it is time to dust off the drawing tools. ;) > > Take care, > Fred | 5790|5787|2004-10-08 15:48:04|brentswain38|Re: Paint and galvanizing questions|We get all the plate, flatbar and angles , wheelabraded and pre primed. The only disadvantage of galvanized is breathing the fumes. I'd use it for my own boat, a one shot deal, but wouldn't work on it for a living. There are some good masks available for welding your own boat.I've used a lot of galvanized pipe for sheer caps, etc and it doesn't make sense to use ungalvanized pipe there Some have been using stainless there, expensive, but the ultimate sheer cap.. Trying to weld thru epoxy would be a nightmare. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > 1. In Canada preprimed steel plate is available. Are the mill shapes > you use for building, flat bar, angles, etc., also preprimed? > > 2. Since the sheer cap and stantions can be galvanized pipe are there > any (dis)advantages to using mill shapes that are galvanized? > > 3. When the steel plate is first delivered it would be easy to > prepaint the sheets with coal tar epoxy, say using an airless painter > or simply rolling the paint with standard paint rollers. Possibly it > would be better to wait until all the plate is cut and the angles and > flat bar installed on the deck pieces and hull plates before the hull > is pulled into shape. If the plate is preprimed are there any (dis) > advantages to prepainting the sheet steel in this manner? > > 4. In an earlier post Brent said he used galvanized plate for his (?) > deck. Availability, (dis)advantages when doing this? > > Take care, > Fred | 5791|5786|2004-10-08 15:51:20|brentswain38|Re: wind resistance and strength in tube/pipe structures on deck|The big pipe is simpler. Leave a case of beer on deck and you have more windage. Don't worry about it. It's like picking flyshit out of pepper. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > OK I have a techie question for you designer/builders. > > it's about windage. suppose you have two possible ways to provide > a certain amount of load-bearing support on deck, where windage counts: > > 1) use one big pipe, say 2 inch diam > > 2) use 2 or 3 pieces of smaller pipe, say 3/4inch, over the same run. > > in other words > > ==================== ================ > | | || || || > | | vs || || || > | | || || || > | | || || || > | | || || || > > (imagine that the three upright pipes in version B might be arranged in > a triangle at their bases for stability if a load is to be carried > on top) > > which offers the most wind resistance? is there a rule-of-thumb for > computing wind resistance in this case? > > and, also of interest, which offers the most strength for weight? > > my instinct says that a structure made of a "grid" of smaller diam > pipe can be stronger for less weight (buckyballs anyone?), but > structural strength is not always intuitive. my instinct says that > the wind would "blow through" the more sparse structure and meet > less resistance but fluid dynamics is also not always intuitive. > > any opinions? > > de > > -- > .................................................................... ......... > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: | 5792|5792|2004-10-08 23:13:43|seeratlas|MicroBalloons & Coal Tar|Brent, I read on the MetalBoatSociety site about your experiment with mixing microballoons into the coal tar epoxy for I believe painting the bilge. I saw that your initial conclusion was that it was lowering the condensation in the bilge dramatically. Has anything happened since to change your favorable opinion of that technique? seer| 5793|5765|2004-10-09 02:31:15|sae140|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|Common standards work fine with basic structures such as screw threads, or mass-produced articles such as cars which - in the main - are not subsequently altered in any material way. But as I see it, the RCD is fatally flawed as a design type-approval concept, in that any modification to a CE marked vessel will (at least in theory) automatically invalidate it's CE status. Yet as we are all aware, raking the mast a few inches, rigging with non- original sails, adding ballast - any of these will alter the handing characteristics of the vessel, just as adding bulkheads or through- hulls can affect the hull's integrity. But - show me any vessel in any country that has sailed even for it's first season and hasn't been modified in at least some minor way. Individuality is an inherent characteristic of boat-owners. Isn't this one underlying reason why back-yard customised boats are built ? The RCD has a second serious flaw: if any vessel (CE marked or otherwise) undergoes repair - for even the most extensive of damage - such repairs are deemed outside of the RCD mandate, and are exempt from scrutiny. So - a damaged keel could be cut off, and a new one only tack-welded back on - and that would be ok in the eyes of the bureaucrats, as the boat's CE integrity hadn't been compromised. Third flaw - the RCD requires that commercial vessels professionally- built prior to 1998 (which would otherwise be exempt) such as customs cutters, habour launches, trawlers, fishing vessels, life-boats, and the like .... must be surveyed and type-approved if converted for pleasure use. Ok - you may consider that to be reasonable, as the vessels may no longer be 'as designed' and therefore possibly unseaworthy. But in contrast, the subsequent conversion of a home- built vessel (which may not be any too seaworthy in the first place) - providing it has been built in the EEA, of course - is exempt. But I am reminded that someone pointed out a few days back that looking for logic in legislation can be futile. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > US boat manufacturers Legend (Hunter Marine) and Island Packet sell > their sailboats in the UK and the European Union and so they comply > with the RCD no problem. For them, the cost of compliance is shared > over all the boats they sell. For the small manufacturer or > importer the cost can be prohibitive. In general common standards > are a good thing. Manufacturers do not have to go to the expense of > researching and complying with the different standards of their > different markets. For instance a minor irritation in my work is > that there are two main different pipe threads in the world British > Standard Pipe (BSP) and National Pipe Thread (NPT). Some sizes sort > of fit, some will sort of fit with a large stilsons pipe wrench with > a scaffold pole on the handle and some won't fit at all. In my work > I have occasionally bought US instruments and gas blowers with NPT > threads. We have to have adaptors machined up to connect them. > When I was younger I had a tool box with three different sets of > spanners, Metric, Whitworth and AF depending on where the equipment > came from. However I ramble and digress. > > Regards, > Ted | 5794|5794|2004-10-09 16:11:24|Puck III|special steel|http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter| 5795|5792|2004-10-09 18:59:14|brentswain38|Re: MicroBalloons & Coal Tar|So far so good. I'd hoped to do the whole bilge this summer, but never got around to it.I plan to make the whole floor a single lift pannel so it should be easy to do next summer.I plan to give it many coats . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, > I read on the MetalBoatSociety site about your experiment with mixing > microballoons into the coal tar epoxy for I believe painting the bilge. > I saw that your initial conclusion was that it was lowering the > condensation in the bilge dramatically. Has anything happened since > to change your favorable opinion of that technique? > > seer | 5796|5765|2004-10-09 19:35:21|edward_stoneuk|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|Fair comment Colin, but taking the logic of your argument further leads to the requirement that recreational craft are inspected periodically to see if they still comply. Is that what you want? Of interest is the Angle of Vanishing Stability chosen as suitable for a 10 tonne Category A Ocean going boat, which is 110°. This would seem low as it is unlikely if the boat was capsized by a breaking wave that it would see the light of day again. Regards, Ted| 5797|5797|2004-10-09 20:03:54|fenixrises|The ultimate boatbuilder's accessory|Hi all, For those planning to do something when you get around to it... http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gHtoQQROFErCDzIJQWassgwynAhtHClrL089i5Ah_ xCXZVqiVFU-L-hBqJfZmJEEoE5NV1J6JAlvuQzT8XlcDVSDlLoLfHSu/2it.gif Take care, Fred| 5798|5794|2004-10-10 13:35:10|seeratlas|Re: special steel|Interesting the article goes on and on and never states just what kind of 'highstrength steel' they are talking about. May I presume you're supposed to contact Tunplat AB directly so they can lay the whole sails pitch on you? heheheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter | 5799|5794|2004-10-10 17:06:03|Puck III|Re: special steel|You could ask your local representative of Swedish Steel and refer to Rolf Modigh's design " Searcher " where 4 ton weight was saved on a 19m expedition vessel . e-mail: langedragmarin@... Would you have an interest in expeditionvessels ,just mention it, there are some good design's and boats with proven records out there . "Searcher" is only one of them. hehehe Old Ben . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Interesting the article goes on and on and never states just what kind > of 'highstrength steel' they are talking about. May I presume you're > supposed to contact Tunplat AB directly so they can lay the whole > sails pitch on you? heheheh > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter | 5800|5794|2004-10-10 17:29:18|Puck III|Re: special steel|http://tinyurl.com/6wv8l sinds you responded I presume you'r a pro : you sure will recognise the boats in the pic hehehe :-) http://piem.org/vagabond/ http://www.henkdevelde.nl/ site also in english see the Campina pics I dought you will be bothered by many sales people. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Interesting the article goes on and on and never states just what kind > of 'highstrength steel' they are talking about. May I presume you're > supposed to contact Tunplat AB directly so they can lay the whole > sails pitch on you? heheheh > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter | 5801|5765|2004-10-10 17:49:55|sae140|Re: RCD and the Lydia-B|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Fair comment Colin, but taking the logic of your argument further > leads to the requirement that recreational craft are inspected > periodically to see if they still comply. Is that what you want? Hi Ted Well, I see the extension of my logic as being that the RCD be recognised as a seriously flawed piece of legislation as it imposes unfair international trade restrictions, and does not take into account the core nature of the environment upon which it is being directed, and should thus be relaxed accordingly, rather than being further tightened. However the last time I Iooked, pigs weren't sprouting wings. > Of interest is the Angle of Vanishing Stability chosen as suitable > for a 10 tonne Category A Ocean going boat, which is 110°. This > would seem low as it is unlikely if the boat was capsized by a > breaking wave that it would see the light of day again. No doubt seen as an acceptable angle when viewed from behind a leather-topped oak desk in a carpeted and centrally-heated Brussels office. Best regards Colin > > Regards, > Ted | 5802|5794|2004-10-10 19:01:20|seeratlas|Re: special steel|I see on the vagabond site that it quotes the construction as ' Special E36 steel hull Stem reinforced with 10 mm stainless steel plate' I was under the impression that 'E36' /EH36 was std shipbuilding steel but I'm still on the upside of the learning curve on this one. I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of my comment. As I understood the original article you cited, it inferred that some special unusual swedish? steel was employed in the building of the expedition vessel yet they failed to name it only giving a contact address for what I presume was the builder. Thus my comment on the likely 'sales' pitch. I saw no reason why they couldn't have just come out and stated what steel it was they used. Now, as for being a 'pro', not hardly :) Tho I HAVE been into the arctic twice and would not care to chance it a third time. I captained the one-off 54 ft. Huntingford designed sloop 'Arctic Falcon' during the 80's. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/6wv8l sinds you responded I presume you'r > a pro : you sure will recognise the boats in the pic hehehe :-) > http://piem.org/vagabond/ > http://www.henkdevelde.nl/ site also in english see the > Campina pics > I dought you will be bothered by many sales people. > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Interesting the article goes on and on and never states just > what kind > > of 'highstrength steel' they are talking about. May I presume > you're > > supposed to contact Tunplat AB directly so they can lay the > whole > > sails pitch on you? heheheh > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > > > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter | 5803|5803|2004-10-10 19:27:16|seeratlas|Substitute for commercial CPP 's|Brent, I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the building of your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone else here for that matter) ever come across or considered any other mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch Propellers on the market? I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft within which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the roating blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would cause the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward 'bite' to reverse. Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load on the Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an external shaft which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause the roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate mechanically on the engine end. Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a cpp, the attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the seamless transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to mention the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all compelling, but for the price hehehe. any ideas out there? seer| 5804|5803|2004-10-10 21:00:42|fenixrises|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|Hi Seer, Generally speaking prop shaft speed on a displacement hull should not exceed 1000 RPM or 17 RPS. Many of the small displacement diesels currently in use for sailboats in the 30'-45' range are high speed engines, i.e. ~ 2500 to 3600 RPM. For the most efficient use of the power available from these engines a reduction gear ratio between 2:1 and 3:1 is required. Most modern reduction transmissions include a reversing feature. Adding the cost of a variable pitch prop to that combination, even if homemade would add considerable cost and complexity. Perhaps a better investment would be a feathering prop. Currently India and China are producing and exporting old style heavy weight slow speed diesels engines that are quite inexpensive. These engines are often rated for a maximum speed of ~ 600 - 2000 RPM. It would be posible to use a variable pitch prop with one of these engines. However these engines are quite big and very heavy. A typical 20 hp engine weighing ~ 300 - 500kgs or more, this is not really suited to a modern medium displacement vessel. For an older style heavy or very heavy displacement sailboat one of these engines would be good. For a long range displacement cruising powerboat an engine of this type would be ideal. Happy sails to you, Fred "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the building of > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone else here > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch Propellers on > the market? > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft within > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the roating > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would cause > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > 'bite' to reverse. > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load on the > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an external shaft > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause the > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate mechanically on > the engine end. > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a cpp, the > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the seamless > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to mention > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all compelling, but > for the price hehehe. > > any ideas out there? > > seer | 5805|5794|2004-10-11 02:44:08|Carl Nostrand|Re: special steel|Thanks for the links to some very interesting tuff sailing vessels. I love learning about new polar bound vessels. Wish I could read some more Dutch and Swedish, and order Henk De Velde's adventurous books. and track down the construction details of the SEARCHER faster. Maybe Henk goes into more about the design and building of his tuff vessel in his book. I love the photo on his web page of chopping into the ice with a chain saw to start freeing up his nicely protected and designed twin rudders. Looked like a killer sharp ice breaking bow and lifting keel design. Going on the hard and ice with a nice safety margin. The hull plating on the stem looked unique and shaped for battle. I would like to see and learn more about these cool weather explores and there ice/ polar capable tuff vessels. Best regards, Carl Nostrand Homer, Alaska On Oct 9, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Puck III wrote: > > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5806|5794|2004-10-11 06:19:03|Puck III|Re: special steel|Thanks for the positive comment,I just posted 3 pics in Photos: -Searcher the Rolf Modigh from Langedrag Marin Design and -Vagabond II with its original deck-house design and -Angelina , the Gilbert Caroff designed Campina boat on wich Henk De Velde uses the same Panasonic Toughbook as you can see in Photos ( cheap and fine for extreme conditions :-) I just had Gilbert Caroff on the phone , he also mentioned his Nadja design for polar expeditions see for " North Bound " http://caroffduflos.free.fr/ or some other fine pics in http://www.dujardin-icofrance.com/ You will have to find a translator and write in french to him, and I do not volunteer :-) " I have a dream " you must have heard that before , in the spirit " united we stand " to come up with a fine CEE approved , classification ready design , that includes everything from fine rendering to cutting files and that would include even all SOLAS requirements , and to build the boat with the " Origami " method cause that saves labor , so people end up with a cheaper boat . Personaly I love the tropics and I have no Pole experience at all but I had the previledge to work for many expedition boats. Dont forget Willy De Roos with " Williwaw " Tell us more about your personal project please. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand wrote: > Thanks for the links to some very interesting tuff sailing vessels. I > love learning about new polar bound vessels. Wish I could read > some more Dutch and Swedish, and order Henk De Velde's adventurous > books. and track down the construction details of the SEARCHER faster. > Maybe Henk goes into more about the design and building of his tuff > vessel in his book. I love the photo on his web page of chopping into > the ice with a chain saw to start freeing up his nicely protected and > designed twin rudders. Looked like a killer sharp ice breaking bow and > lifting keel design. Going on the hard and ice with a nice safety > margin. The hull plating on the stem looked unique and shaped for > battle. I would like to see and learn more about these cool weather > explores and there ice/ polar capable tuff vessels. > > Best regards, > > Carl Nostrand > Homer, Alaska > On Oct 9, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Puck III wrote: > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5807|5803|2004-10-11 07:25:52|Robert Miller|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|Where would I find information on these low RPM engines? Or... do you know specific manufacturer's names? Thanks. Robert On Oct 10, 2004, at 9:00 PM, fenixrises wrote: > Currently India and China are producing and exporting old style heavy > weight slow speed diesels engines that are quite inexpensive. These > engines are often rated for a maximum speed of ~ 600 - 2000 RPM. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5808|5803|2004-10-11 08:16:45|fenixrises|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|Hi Robert, Just go to Google Advanced Search. Put in for EXACT diesel engine Put in for ALL the words India, China. You will get a lot of links. Happy sails to you, Fred Robert Miller wrote: > Where would I find information on these low RPM engines? Or... do you > know specific manufacturer's names? > Thanks. > > Robert > > On Oct 10, 2004, at 9:00 PM, fenixrises wrote: > > > Currently India and China are producing and exporting old style heavy > > weight slow speed diesels engines that are quite inexpensive. These > > engines are often rated for a maximum speed of ~ 600 - 2000 RPM. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5809|5803|2004-10-11 11:46:31|put_to_sea|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|> Where would I find information on these low RPM engines? Or... do you > know specific manufacturer's names? > Thanks. > One manufacturer is: http://www.metroexporters.com/pages/metex/dieselslow.html Amos| 5810|5810|2004-10-11 12:48:42|Puck III|Sabb 2JHVP with controlable 3 blade pitchpropeller|http://tinyurl.com/56bcx is my personal favorite small boat engine , the variable pitch prop gives you the power or the speed ( even the reverse :-) when and where you need it Old Ben| 5811|5810|2004-10-11 13:26:21|seeratlas|Re: Sabb 2JHVP with controlable 3 blade pitchpropeller|I'm looking for around 45 to 55 hp for an anticipated 40 ft or slightly larger. I'm having a heck of a time trying to navigate the Saab website. My understanding is that the variable pitch setup is common in scandinavia perhaps due to the extreme cost of fuel up there, every little bit helps. I also seem to have read somewhere that the small Saab diesels are no longer being produced, instead they are relying on Lister diesels which they combine with Helseth CPP's for a 'package deal' which tho expensive, will most likely be dependable as all get out. Back to one of my earlier comments, I assure you that once you've tried a boat with a good CPP system installed, you'll be lusting for one for your own boat. The first time you smoothly swing from forward to reverse without the huge "clunk", your eyes will light up, and the first time your slatting along in 4 or 5 knots of wind...and you start up the engine, tune to an economical rpm then dial in the pitch to reach just below your hull speed, the sails fill with apparent wind and off you go...(they call it 'motorsailing' hehehe) you'll be hooked and glad you didn't trade in your sailer for a trawler... seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/56bcx is my personal favorite small boat > engine , the variable pitch prop gives you the power or the > speed ( even the reverse :-) when and where you need it > Old Ben | 5812|5794|2004-10-11 13:26:44|Carl Nostrand|Re: special steel|Great Dream Old Ben! I have always willing helped many other people accomplish there boat dream and commercial fishing goals. I used to hand bait hooks on conventional long-liners for Halibut and Black Cod (Sable fish) for a living in Alaskan waters. Boat build and repair was part of the program. My favorite non commercial fishing project was to help Floyd Epperson build a 70 foot conventional gaff rigged 3 masted schooner called TOOTHPICK. We cold molded the boat with clear spruce and Teak that we milled with are custom resaw. The project took 9 years before we did a winter cruse to Seattle from Anchorage Alaska. No big deal for someone like me that has spent many years winter fishing in Alaskan waters, MY X didn't want anything to do with the sea and held me guilty for helping Floyd sail his retirement schooner south. WE split and my 15 year old son Sven lives with me now. The return to the sea draws closer and closer for me....Which boat ??????WE will SEE....... Well, after the winter sailing trip, and with a few close calls to making splinters out of the S/V Toothpick , I figured that steel was the material for my next project. My dreams are still with a sailing work boat. Underwater exploring in remote places makes me smile. Science and Sailing with a Steel Vessel makes Sea-nce! More dearms latter, I have to go jack up another house in the mud! Its getting to light to be inside. Best regards, Carl Nostrand Homer, Alaska On Oct 11, 2004, at 2:18 AM, Puck III wrote: > > > Thanks for the positive comment,I just posted 3 pics in Photos: > -Searcher the Rolf Modigh from Langedrag Marin Design and > -Vagabond II with its original deck-house design and > -Angelina , the Gilbert Caroff designed Campina boat on wich > Henk De Velde uses the same Panasonic Toughbook as you > can see in Photos ( cheap and fine for extreme conditions :-) > I just had Gilbert Caroff on the phone , he also mentioned his > Nadja design for polar expeditions see for " North Bound " > http://caroffduflos.free.fr/ or some other fine pics in > http://www.dujardin-icofrance.com/ > You will have to find a translator and write in french to him, > and I do not volunteer :-) > " I have a dream " you must have heard that before , in the spirit > " united we stand " to come up with a fine CEE approved , > classification ready design , that includes everything from > fine rendering to cutting files and that would include even all > SOLAS requirements , and to build the boat with the " Origami " > method cause that saves labor , so people end up with a > cheaper boat . > Personaly I love the tropics and I have no Pole experience at all > but I had the previledge to work for many expedition boats. > Dont forget Willy De Roos with " Williwaw " > Tell us more about your personal project please. > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand > wrote: >> Thanks for the links to some very interesting tuff sailing > vessels. I >> love learning about new polar bound vessels. Wish I could > read >> some more Dutch and Swedish, and order Henk De Velde's > adventurous >> books. and track down the construction details of the > SEARCHER faster. >> Maybe Henk goes into more about the design and building of > his tuff >> vessel in his book. I love the photo on his web page of > chopping into >> the ice with a chain saw to start freeing up his nicely protected > and >> designed twin rudders. Looked like a killer sharp ice breaking > bow and >> lifting keel design. Going on the hard and ice with a nice safety >> margin. The hull plating on the stem looked unique and > shaped for >> battle. I would like to see and learn more about these cool > weather >> explores and there ice/ polar capable tuff vessels. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Carl Nostrand >> Homer, Alaska >> On Oct 9, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Puck III wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 >>> no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5813|5813|2004-10-12 11:21:04|seeratlas|Colored Sail Longevity|Is anyone here a sailmaker or otherwise have experience with colored sails? I came across a Brent musing in another forum in which he was wondering if the increased life of his black plastic materials in the tropics would extrapolate to black sails. I think that's a hell of a question since on a well rigged boat, I've always had the sails die from UV weakening long before they wore out due to stress or chafe. Anyone? seer| 5814|5814|2004-10-12 14:50:31|jfpacuas|Pre-primed steel primer info|HI folks, I've been pricing out steel for a BS 26. When I asked a local supplier for pre-primed steel, he asked me for the spec on the primer. Apparently the primering can be done locally (Anchorage, AK). Not knowing a lot about the process, I was surprised that I might have an option for the primer to be used. I know such info has been posted somewhere here, but I have been unable to find it in my brief perusal of earlier posts. I also thought it was in Brent's book, but I didn't see it last night when I looked. So, the questions are 1) what primer is most often used? 2) what are the approximate proportions of its components? I suppose there are situations where one primer may be preferred over another, but I am looking for a general idea. I am guessing there is a fairly generic mix that is good for most situations. And before anyone asks, I do not know the price for the abrading and primering, but I will post it when I know it. I do know that the 6X28 foot hull plating will likely be special ordered from Seattle. Cheers and thanks Paul| 5815|5813|2004-10-12 16:13:03|brentswain38|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|I have black plastic poly tubing on my rigging which as been out in the sun and has done many Pacific crossings since 1976. It's as good as the day I put it on. If you look at the USanian flags in the tropics, you'll see that the red stripes survive the UV much longer than the white ones.a friend I met in Huahine had a sail which had alternating white and brown panells. The white broke down under UV much faster. Black plastic buckets last almost indefinitly whereas white ones break down rather quickly under UV.Black stops all light whereas colored plastic lets a lot of light pass right thru it.In the tropics they are starting to make all their sail covers in black to prevent UV dammage. Water stored in black containers stays fresh whereas water stored in colored containers, even dark colored ones , goes swampy after a few weeks. Jack ,during his circumnavigation,painted his plastic jerry cans to keep the UV out and the water in them stayd fresh until they used it.I painted a jerry can with epoxy tar and it holds on surprisingly well. Acrylic paints seem to hold well on sailkcloth and I'm considering painting my sails black before heading to the tropics again, possibly sooner. Africans are dark for a good reason. If Scandinavians were that dark, they'd suffer major vitamin D deficiencies. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Is anyone here a sailmaker or otherwise have experience with colored > sails? I came across a Brent musing in another forum in which he > was wondering if the increased life of his black plastic materials > in the tropics would extrapolate to black sails. I think that's a > hell of a question since on a well rigged boat, I've always had the > sails die from UV weakening long before they wore out due to stress > or chafe. Anyone? > > seer | 5816|5814|2004-10-12 18:01:24|brentswain38|Re: Pre-primed steel primer info|Carboweld zinc primer is compatible with epoxies ( inorganic) and is over 85 % zinc , dry film. It works well. Interzinc , by International is also good as is the green primer that Devoe makes. You want good ventilation when welding on interzinc. Avoid any vinyl primers like the red or blue international primers ,as nothing will stick to them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > HI folks, > > I've been pricing out steel for a BS 26. When I asked a local > supplier for pre-primed steel, he asked me for the spec on the > primer. Apparently the primering can be done locally (Anchorage, AK). > Not knowing a lot about the process, I was surprised that I might > have an option for the primer to be used. > > I know such info has been posted somewhere here, but I have been > unable to find it in my brief perusal of earlier posts. I also > thought it was in Brent's book, but I didn't see it last night when I > looked. > > So, the questions are 1) what primer is most often used? 2) what are > the approximate proportions of its components? I suppose there are > situations where one primer may be preferred over another, but I am > looking for a general idea. I am guessing there is a fairly generic > mix that is good for most situations. > > And before anyone asks, I do not know the price for the abrading and > primering, but I will post it when I know it. I do know that the 6X28 > foot hull plating will likely be special ordered from Seattle. > > Cheers and thanks > > Paul | 5817|5794|2004-10-12 18:04:48|brentswain38|Re: special steel|In boats under 50 ft common mild steel is all you really need . The lilihood of ever punching a hole in 3/16 plate with doublers on the chines in a boat undere 50 feet is extremely remote. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/6wv8l sinds you responded I presume you'r > a pro : you sure will recognise the boats in the pic hehehe :-) > http://piem.org/vagabond/ > http://www.henkdevelde.nl/ site also in english see the > Campina pics > I dought you will be bothered by many sales people. > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Interesting the article goes on and on and never states just > what kind > > of 'highstrength steel' they are talking about. May I presume > you're > > supposed to contact Tunplat AB directly so they can lay the > whole > > sails pitch on you? heheheh > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7xtm8 > > > no blabla , for the pro & even with a newsletter | 5818|5803|2004-10-12 18:07:31|brentswain38|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|Have a look at the Sabb variable pitch prop. They are extremely simple and wouldn't be hard to copy. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the building of > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone else here > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch Propellers on > the market? > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft within > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the roating > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would cause > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > 'bite' to reverse. > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load on the > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an external shaft > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause the > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate mechanically on > the engine end. > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a cpp, the > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the seamless > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to mention > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all compelling, but > for the price hehehe. > > anyâV¹ûas out there? > > seer | 5819|5813|2004-10-12 18:35:44|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Years ago National Fisherman recommended the black and red "truck" style ropes for deck ropes because of the uv inhibition of the black dyes. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Colored Sail Longevity I have black plastic poly tubing on my rigging which as been out in the sun and has done many Pacific crossings since 1976. It's as good as the day I put it on. If you look at the USanian flags in the tropics, you'll see that the red stripes survive the UV much longer than the white ones.a friend I met in Huahine had a sail which had alternating white and brown panells. The white broke down under UV much faster. Black plastic buckets last almost indefinitly whereas white ones break down rather quickly under UV.Black stops all light whereas colored plastic lets a lot of light pass right thru it.In the tropics they are starting to make all their sail covers in black to prevent UV dammage. Water stored in black containers stays fresh whereas water stored in colored containers, even dark colored ones , goes swampy after a few weeks. Jack ,during his circumnavigation,painted his plastic jerry cans to keep the UV out and the water in them stayd fresh until they used it.I painted a jerry can with epoxy tar and it holds on surprisingly well. Acrylic paints seem to hold well on sailkcloth and I'm considering painting my sails black before heading to the tropics again, possibly sooner. Africans are dark for a good reason. If Scandinavians were that dark, they'd suffer major vitamin D deficiencies. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Is anyone here a sailmaker or otherwise have experience with colored > sails? I came across a Brent musing in another forum in which he > was wondering if the increased life of his black plastic materials > in the tropics would extrapolate to black sails. I think that's a > hell of a question since on a well rigged boat, I've always had the > sails die from UV weakening long before they wore out due to stress > or chafe. Anyone? > > seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5820|5803|2004-10-12 19:54:13|seeratlas|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|Brent, are you still using the "Brent38-" email? I've sent you a couple of notes directly. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Have a look at the Sabb variable pitch prop. They are extremely > simple and wouldn't be hard to copy. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the building of > > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone else > here > > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch Propellers on > > the market? > > > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft > within > > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the > roating > > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would cause > > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > > 'bite' to reverse. > > > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load on the > > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an external > shaft > > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause the > > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate mechanically > on > > the engine end. > > > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a cpp, the > > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the seamless > > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to mention > > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all compelling, > but > > for the price hehehe. > > > > anyâV¹ûas out there? > > > > seer | 5821|5787|2004-10-12 23:34:57|blueiceicle|Re: Paint and galvanizing questions|Hey all.. Just wondering about galavanized metals.. wouldnt you need to sandblast galvanized for paint or primer to adhere properly? Also could one use galvanized plate? would there be any advantage? Just wondering, I work around lots of galvanized plate but all our stuff that gets painted is sandblasted first. Jesse| 5822|5814|2004-10-13 09:24:27|bruce@hallman.org|Re: Pre-primed steel primer info|--"jfpacuas" > I suppose there are situations where one > primer may be preferred over another, In building construction, the type of steel primer you choose needs to be compatable with the top coat material you choose, fireproofing, type of paint, etc..| 5823|5803|2004-10-13 17:19:16|brentswain38|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|I use brentswain38@... I haven't got any of yours yet.I also sometimes use brentswain38@... Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, are you still using the "Brent38-" email? I've sent you a > couple of notes directly. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Have a look at the Sabb variable pitch prop. They are extremely > > simple and wouldn't be hard to copy. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the building of > > > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > > > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone else > > here > > > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > > > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > > > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch Propellers on > > > the market? > > > > > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft > > within > > > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the > > roating > > > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would cause > > > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > > > 'bite' to reverse. > > > > > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load on the > > > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an external > > shaft > > > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause the > > > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate mechanically > > on > > > the engine end. > > > > > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a cpp, the > > > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the seamless > > > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to mention > > > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all compelling, > > but > > > for the price hehehe. > > > > > > anyâV¹ûas out there? > > > > > > seer | 5824|5813|2004-10-13 17:20:16|brentswain38|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Most fishermen here use the black poly rope instead of the coloured stuff and it lasts many times longer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" wrote: > Years ago National Fisherman recommended the black and red "truck" style ropes for deck ropes because of the uv inhibition of the black dyes. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Colored Sail Longevity > > > > I have black plastic poly tubing on my rigging which as been out in > the sun and has done many Pacific crossings since 1976. It's as good > as the day I put it on. If you look at the USanian flags in the > tropics, you'll see that the red stripes survive the UV much longer > than the white ones.a friend I met in Huahine had a sail which had > alternating white and brown panells. The white broke down under UV > much faster. > Black plastic buckets last almost indefinitly whereas white ones > break down rather quickly under UV.Black stops all light whereas > colored plastic lets a lot of light pass right thru it.In the tropics > they are starting to make all their sail covers in black to prevent > UV dammage. > Water stored in black containers stays fresh whereas water stored > in colored containers, even dark colored ones , goes swampy after a > few weeks. Jack ,during his circumnavigation,painted his plastic > jerry cans to keep the UV out and the water in them stayd fresh until > they used it.I painted a jerry can with epoxy tar and it holds on > surprisingly well. > Acrylic paints seem to hold well on sailkcloth and I'm considering > painting my sails black before heading to the tropics again, possibly > sooner. > Africans are dark for a good reason. If Scandinavians were that > dark, they'd suffer major vitamin D deficiencies. > Brent Swain > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Is anyone here a sailmaker or otherwise have experience with > colored > > sails? I came across a Brent musing in another forum in which he > > was wondering if the increased life of his black plastic materials > > in the tropics would extrapolate to black sails. I think that's a > > hell of a question since on a well rigged boat, I've always had the > > sails die from UV weakening long before they wore out due to stress > > or chafe. Anyone? > > > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5825|5787|2004-10-13 17:24:44|brentswain38|Re: Paint and galvanizing questions|Sandblasting would remove all the galvanizing and make the whole effort pointless. For my galvanized decks I washed them with TSP solution to degrease them, then washed them with vinegar to remove any oxide, then water to remove the vinegar,let them dry, then coated them with 4 coats of epoxy tar. That was 20 years ago and the epoxy stuck like shit to a blanket.I'd do the same again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > > Hey all.. > > Just wondering about galavanized metals.. wouldnt you need to > sandblast galvanized for paint or primer to adhere properly? > > Also could one use galvanized plate? would there be any advantage? > > Just wondering, I work around lots of galvanized plate but all our > stuff that gets painted is sandblasted first. > > Jesse | 5826|5803|2004-10-13 17:26:23|brentswain38|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|yahoo.ca or hotmail.com Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I use brentswain38@y... I haven't got any of yours yet.I also > sometimes use brentswain38@h... > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, are you still using the "Brent38-" email? I've sent you a > > couple of notes directly. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Have a look at the Sabb variable pitch prop. They are extremely > > > simple and wouldn't be hard to copy. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the > building of > > > > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > > > > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone > else > > > here > > > > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > > > > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > > > > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch > Propellers on > > > > the market? > > > > > > > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft > > > within > > > > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the > > > roating > > > > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would > cause > > > > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > > > > 'bite' to reverse. > > > > > > > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load > on the > > > > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an > external > > > shaft > > > > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause > the > > > > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate > mechanically > > > on > > > > the engine end. > > > > > > > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a > cpp, the > > > > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the > seamless > > > > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to > mention > > > > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all > compelling, > > > but > > > > for the price hehehe. > > > > > > > > anyâV¹ûas out there? > > > > > > > > seer | 5827|5803|2004-10-13 18:33:18|seeratlas|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|ok, sent one to the yahoo.com address seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I use brentswain38@y... I haven't got any of yours yet.I also > sometimes use brentswain38@h... > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, are you still using the "Brent38-" email? I've sent you a > > couple of notes directly. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Have a look at the Sabb variable pitch prop. They are extremely > > > simple and wouldn't be hard to copy. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Brent, > > > > > > > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the > building of > > > > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > > > > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone > else > > > here > > > > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > > > > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > > > > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch > Propellers on > > > > the market? > > > > > > > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft > > > within > > > > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the > > > roating > > > > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would > cause > > > > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > > > > 'bite' to reverse. > > > > > > > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load > on the > > > > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an > external > > > shaft > > > > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause > the > > > > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate > mechanically > > > on > > > > the engine end. > > > > > > > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a > cpp, the > > > > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the > seamless > > > > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to > mention > > > > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all > compelling, > > > but > > > > for the price hehehe. > > > > > > > > anyâV¹ûas out there? > > > > > > > > seer | 5828|5828|2004-10-13 19:00:18|seeratlas|Props and aperatures|Well, I've looked at the prop situation several different ways and wanted to run my conclusion past the group. Any and all comments welcome. First, the cost of controllable pitch/feathering and folding props seems pretty darned high for the size I'd want to run behind one of Brent's 40 footers sooo, in keeping with the 'spirit' of 'bang for buck' evident throughout this group, I've come to the following conclusions. 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to have read somewhere that the simplest, and most efficient prop for a displacement hull is a two bladed prop of large diameter swung slowly. 2. If that is so, then, the best way to limit drag under sail would be to lock the shaft where the blades are lined up behind the skeg in the aperature in Brent's designs. 3. The 'rap' on two blade propellers is that as they pass through the shadow of the skeg and back out again, it causes unwanted vibration due to the change in speed of the water flow. Now assuming all of the above to be valid, and since we're talking a steel plate skeg which is easily tapered, wouldn't it alleviate the vibration if the trailing edge of the skeg (at least within the aperature) were shaped to a tapered, if not sharp trailing edge so as to minimize any 'shadowing' effect, and thus vibration? Also, is there any reason that the radius of the apperature could not be extended up and down a bit so as enable a suitably larger two bladed prop as opposed to the more normal 3 bladed prop currently in vogue? Bottom line, if this is all correct, Brent's way of building his own stainless prop (he has built in stainless a three bladed one of his own design which netted him a full half knot over his expensive imported bronze job!) if applied to a well sized and appropriately geared two blader, would give near maximum efficiency under both power and sail for very little money- all in keeping with the 'heretical' nature of his boats. comments please :) seer| 5829|5829|2004-10-13 19:00:55|richytill|Mast for sale|For sale: 47' aluminium pole with base welded on and shiv box made up- -$1500 cdn obo (this would only cover materials invested). 1 schd. 80 leading edge for 36' fin keel--free. Borg Warner 71C transmission 1.5:1 ratio, just rebuilt and tested--$1000. Location--Sechelt, BC.| 5830|22|2004-10-13 19:28:22|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /multi pitch prop.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/multi%20pitch%20prop.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 5831|5803|2004-10-13 19:34:18|Puck III|Re: Substitute for commercial CPP 's|You also could have a look at the Hundested file just posted , changing the pitch by hand ? why not a second hand for a bargain , easy to recondition & a real salty look :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Have a look at the Sabb variable pitch prop. They are extremely > simple and wouldn't be hard to copy. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Brent, > > > > I came across a series of posts of yours concerning the building of > > your own stainless steel props. Given your 'no BS' minimalistic > > critical eye to boat and boat equipment, have you (or anyone else > here > > for that matter) ever come across or considered any other > > mass-produced mechanism that could be adapted to performing the > > function of the incredibly expensive Controlled Pitch Propellers on > > the market? > > > > I can envision a stainless hub flange bolted to a hollow shaft > within > > which rides an actuating shaft which would engage a tab on the > roating > > blades such that by forcing the inner shaft fore and aft would cause > > the blades to swivel thru say 120 degrees or so i.e from forward > > 'bite' to reverse. > > > > Conversely I suppose it would be possible to put all the load on the > > Interior shaft and rig up an engagement mechanism on an external > shaft > > which would by roating some kind of an outer hub collar, cause the > > roation of the blades. This would be easier to actuate mechanically > on > > the engine end. > > > > Having once had the opportunity to operate a trawler with a cpp, the > > attraction of dispensing with the transmisson etc. and the seamless > > transitions from forward to reverse when manuevering, not to mention > > the adapting of pitch to suit wind and weather is all compelling, > but > > for the price hehehe. > > > > anyâV1ûas out there? > > > > seer | 5832|5828|2004-10-13 21:59:16|fenixrises|Re: Props and aperatures|Hi seer, Your conclusions about big, slow and two bladed are correct. I also think that tapering the skeg would eliminate most vibration problems. On my last boat, about the same dimensionally as Brent's 31, I had a 16 hp Yanmar 2 cyl engine with a 3.25:1 reduction ratio. This turned a 16" diameter X 10" pitch Martec folding prop that I bought second hand for about $100 USD. A 16" X 10" prop is HUGE and would not normally be associated with an engine or boat of this size. The guy that made my shft said it was too big. Everyone I talked to said it was too big, but according to Skene's it was OK. In use it would power the boat in a flat calm at 4 knots @ 1500 RPM and used 1 quart per hour of diesel. This was pretty close to my calculations when determining the size of my fuel tank(30 US gals). I figured this would give me 4 days under power, if needed, to cross the doldrums. It would also allow the engine to reach about 3400 of its designed 3600 max RPM. So in fact the prop was probably slightly oversized. As it turned out the engine was slightly more economical than I thought. I had plenty of extra fuel as I also carried 2 X 5 gals US in plastic jugs. Brent also related that he built or could build a folding prop. I found that with my boat the folding prop performed very well. Even in reverse it would move the boat easily, just took a bit of distance to get enough speed to be able to steer. Being so big the prop had plenty of thrust in reverse and would stop the boat from full speed forward to zip in about 3 - 5 boat lenghts. It was easy to turn the boat in about 1 & 1/2 boat lenghts by using ahead/reverse, ahead/reverse, etc. letting the torque from the prop assist in the turning. Fred "seeratlas" wrote: > > Well, I've looked at the prop situation several different ways and > wanted to run my conclusion past the group. Any and all comments welcome. > > First, the cost of controllable pitch/feathering and folding props > seems pretty darned high for the size I'd want to run behind one of > Brent's 40 footers sooo, in keeping with the 'spirit' of 'bang for > buck' evident throughout this group, I've come to the following > conclusions. > > 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to have read somewhere > that the simplest, and most efficient prop for a displacement hull is > a two bladed prop of large diameter swung slowly. > > 2. If that is so, then, the best way to limit drag under sail would be > to lock the shaft where the blades are lined up behind the skeg in the > aperature in Brent's designs. > > 3. The 'rap' on two blade propellers is that as they pass through the > shadow of the skeg and back out again, it causes unwanted vibration > due to the change in speed of the water flow. > > Now assuming all of the above to be valid, and since we're talking a > steel plate skeg which is easily tapered, wouldn't it alleviate the > vibration if the trailing edge of the skeg (at least within the > aperature) were shaped to a tapered, if not sharp trailing edge so as > to minimize any 'shadowing' effect, and thus vibration? > > Also, is there any reason that the radius of the apperature could not > be extended up and down a bit so as enable a suitably larger two > bladed prop as opposed to the more normal 3 bladed prop currently in > vogue? > > Bottom line, if this is all correct, Brent's way of building his own > stainless prop (he has built in stainless a three bladed one of his > own design which netted him a full half knot over his expensive > imported bronze job!) if applied to a well sized and appropriately > geared two blader, would give near maximum efficiency under both power > and sail for very little money- all in keeping with the 'heretical' > nature of his boats. > > comments please :) > > seer | 5833|5828|2004-10-13 22:45:22|seeratlas|Re: Props and aperatures|Fred, Thanks for the info. One question tho, wouldn't a big 2blade folder need a lot longer aperature than Brent's design makes available? If I went that way wouldn't I have to indent the rudder to make room for the folder to stream out when just sailing? That 100.00 was a steal LOL. Let me know if you come across another one like that heheheh. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi seer, > > Your conclusions about big, slow and two bladed are correct. I also > think that tapering the skeg would eliminate most vibration problems. > On my last boat, about the same dimensionally as Brent's 31, I had a > 16 hp Yanmar 2 cyl engine with a 3.25:1 reduction ratio. This turned > a 16" diameter X 10" pitch Martec folding prop that I bought second > hand for about $100 USD. A 16" X 10" prop is HUGE and would not > normally be associated with an engine or boat of this size. The guy > that made my shft said it was too big. Everyone I talked to said it > was too big, but according to Skene's it was OK. In use it would > power the boat in a flat calm at 4 knots @ 1500 RPM and used 1 quart > per hour of diesel. This was pretty close to my calculations when > determining the size of my fuel tank(30 US gals). I figured this > would give me 4 days under power, if needed, to cross the doldrums. > It would also allow the engine to reach about 3400 of its designed > 3600 max RPM. So in fact the prop was probably slightly oversized. As > it turned out the engine was slightly more economical than I thought. > I had plenty of extra fuel as I also carried 2 X 5 gals US in plastic > jugs. > Brent also related that he built or could build a folding prop. > I found that with my boat the folding prop performed very well. > Even in reverse it would move the boat easily, just took a bit of > distance to get enough speed to be able to steer. Being so big the > prop had plenty of thrust in reverse and would stop the boat from > full speed forward to zip in about 3 - 5 boat lenghts. It was easy to > turn the boat in about 1 & 1/2 boat lenghts by using ahead/reverse, > ahead/reverse, etc. letting the torque from the prop assist in the > turning. > > Fred > > "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Well, I've looked at the prop situation several different ways and > > wanted to run my conclusion past the group. Any and all comments > welcome. > > > > First, the cost of controllable pitch/feathering and folding props > > seems pretty darned high for the size I'd want to run behind one of > > Brent's 40 footers sooo, in keeping with the 'spirit' of 'bang for > > buck' evident throughout this group, I've come to the following > > conclusions. > > > > 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to have read somewhere > > that the simplest, and most efficient prop for a displacement hull > is > > a two bladed prop of large diameter swung slowly. > > > > 2. If that is so, then, the best way to limit drag under sail would > be > > to lock the shaft where the blades are lined up behind the skeg in > the > > aperature in Brent's designs. > > > > 3. The 'rap' on two blade propellers is that as they pass through > the > > shadow of the skeg and back out again, it causes unwanted vibration > > due to the change in speed of the water flow. > > > > Now assuming all of the above to be valid, and since we're talking a > > steel plate skeg which is easily tapered, wouldn't it alleviate the > > vibration if the trailing edge of the skeg (at least within the > > aperature) were shaped to a tapered, if not sharp trailing edge so > as > > to minimize any 'shadowing' effect, and thus vibration? > > > > Also, is there any reason that the radius of the apperature could > not > > be extended up and down a bit so as enable a suitably larger two > > bladed prop as opposed to the more normal 3 bladed prop currently in > > vogue? > > > > Bottom line, if this is all correct, Brent's way of building his own > > stainless prop (he has built in stainless a three bladed one of his > > own design which netted him a full half knot over his expensive > > imported bronze job!) if applied to a well sized and appropriately > > geared two blader, would give near maximum efficiency under both > power > > and sail for very little money- all in keeping with the 'heretical' > > nature of his boats. > > > > comments please :) > > > > seer | 5834|5582|2004-10-14 00:47:21|Puck III|Re: fresh water scuppers|The latest pic in photos shows it's real easy to enlarge a small doghouse on a raised-deck design and have a real pilothouse . ( larger in Seabull files ) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Ben , what's your friend boat ? > Maurice Griffith and Thomas Gilmer designed some real > pretty raised deck boats ( Wooden Boats building school > has build a real fine Gilmer " Calypso " ) > I will post a photo how to easely integrate a pilothouse > on such a boat . > I hope you liked the latest Photos and File I posted for info > you will find much more in the almost full repository group > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > even the Calypso design :-) > Personaly I favor the " Houari Militaire " as a Gaffrig , > certainly for a cruising boat , and I love boats with > center,side or outerboards cause I believe it ads much > pleasure and safety , and going where others can't is > always rewarding . On the other hand designing such > a boat aint that easy , and experience is what went wrong > and what's realy working :-) > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I was suprised with how secure the raised deck on my friends > 29 foot > > gaffer felt, particularly when working on the lee deck, feet > chocked > > in the toerail, the large fashion plates/bulwarks fore and aft > give a > > real safe feel to the foredeck and aftdeck, and also make a > nice > > place to stash stuff. > > > > Also the raised deck acts as a wavebreak, stopping the rush of > water > > blasting along the sidedecks. The last generation of square > riggers > > had a centre Island for this reason, and were considered safer > than > > the earlier flush decked ships (according to Alan Villiers). > > > > They have to be carefully done to look right, and it is harder on > > larger boats 36+ foot to make them look right (seems to look > best if > > you continue the sheer unbroken on larger boats, rather than > trying > > to drop the bow and stern bulwarks), also its harder to > incorporate a > > good pilothouse that blends in like on brents designs. > > > > cheers > > > > Ben | 5835|5813|2004-10-14 13:25:13|banter49123|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Is anyone here a sailmaker or otherwise have experience with colored > sails? I came across a Brent musing in another forum in which he > was wondering if the increased life of his black plastic materials > in the tropics would extrapolate to black sails. I think that's a > hell of a question since on a well rigged boat, I've always had the > sails die from UV weakening long before they wore out due to stress > or chafe. Anyone? > > seer I've had painted sails for 10 years. The first time,I used ARTIST'S material-acrylic paint for paintings-I was told (by A Farrel)that a powder is available too but never saw it lookin around....I MIXED the powerful artist acrylic with house acrylic(Colour-yer-world) -it's ALL still on albeit it wasn't "strong"enough to my mind-streaky and blotchy maybe because the cloth was thick and "sized"or "rolled"or?...that is ,what I'd say is in any case Crummy-and, I ran out near the bottom of the sail and began to water it down....BUT it looks fine from a distance-shoreside- observers seem to like it-I do too.How can people stand having a huge white reflector in their face on a sunny day ???It is worth the paint ForThisAlone. The next sail,a small junk fores'l,is much prettier.The Sherwin HouseTrimAcrylic paint penetrated right through and went much further in area and is a perfect job-you couldn't tell it from dye.The cloth was thinner,softer. So,Lessons taken are:TEST IT and... that the cloth should be Just Cloth no filler,additive, ...that paint need be the best house trim acrylic-the most expensive- if it says "latex"keep looking."AcrylicEnamel" is key but whether all acrylic contains some latex rubber is unknown to me.Buy one can - (write the chosen colour down and get a sample card for it) and try it on the sample cloth-even a peak corner of your jib sail( because if you chicken out, you'll least notice it there for the next 20 years) Of course you can use the paint on canvas,wood,fibreglass maybe even steel-it's the Best paint I've ever used though it seems to like an extra thin coat for coverage. whether or not my weightcrushed junk sail takes more punishment than your flogging or furled triangles is probably not cogent-even on the bad sail where it's sitting on top of the fibre,it may crease a line or two but it's still ON the sail-I call it permanent.My sails are used but not rotten.I don't cover them except when leaving the boat more'n a month and I do this to keep them clean as much as anything else .The paint Must be shielding uv -it sure aint hurtin' Opinions:Remember that Perseus lost his father because of black sails- a dark brown'd be just as good?Reds,browns I like but so do flies.I will hoist in november and all these sleepy flies are gonna litter the deck....coloured sails may be better in fog but worse at night - you and nobody can see em.be careful to choose a Wildly artistic pattern that you will like forever-ie:tatoos...and finally,this is a point you won't have considered.You will attract attention.You will be instantly recognizeable.Some people like this, some don't.Personally,I envy the anonymity of white triangles-its not a paranoia speaking-it's the frustration of constant collision courses with looky-loos,clowns,Competers -if you do airbrushed babes on your Lateen/Gaff/Junk/Claw/Square sail watch out!| 5836|5828|2004-10-14 14:11:06|Michael Casling|Re: Props and aperatures|The folks wanting to sell you a three bladed prop will tell you that a two blade has the shadow problem even from a keel a few feet in front of it. Your idea of tapering the skeg makes sense to me. The non geared folding props can have a problem with only one blade openning and this causes massive vibration and likely damage if not attented to. Both blades open if reverse is used first. The fixed two blade hiding behind the skeg in a larger boat seems a good compromise or solution. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Props and aperatures Well, I've looked at the prop situation several different ways and wanted to run my conclusion past the group. Any and all comments welcome. First, the cost of controllable pitch/feathering and folding props seems pretty darned high for the size I'd want to run behind one of Brent's 40 footers sooo, in keeping with the 'spirit' of 'bang for buck' evident throughout this group, I've come to the following conclusions. 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to have read somewhere that the simplest, and most efficient prop for a displacement hull is a two bladed prop of large diameter swung slowly. 2. If that is so, then, the best way to limit drag under sail would be to lock the shaft where the blades are lined up behind the skeg in the aperature in Brent's designs. 3. The 'rap' on two blade propellers is that as they pass through the shadow of the skeg and back out again, it causes unwanted vibration due to the change in speed of the water flow. Now assuming all of the above to be valid, and since we're talking a steel plate skeg which is easily tapered, wouldn't it alleviate the vibration if the trailing edge of the skeg (at least within the aperature) were shaped to a tapered, if not sharp trailing edge so as to minimize any 'shadowing' effect, and thus vibration? Also, is there any reason that the radius of the apperature could not be extended up and down a bit so as enable a suitably larger two bladed prop as opposed to the more normal 3 bladed prop currently in vogue? Bottom line, if this is all correct, Brent's way of building his own stainless prop (he has built in stainless a three bladed one of his own design which netted him a full half knot over his expensive imported bronze job!) if applied to a well sized and appropriately geared two blader, would give near maximum efficiency under both power and sail for very little money- all in keeping with the 'heretical' nature of his boats. comments please :) seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5837|5813|2004-10-14 14:52:57|seeratlas|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|:) hehe You're right. Hadn't considered the 'lookyloo' factor :) On the other hand, hadn't considered 'sail tatoo art' either..hmmm interesting possibilities there LOL. Especially since I'm quickly coming to conclusions on how I want the ship to look :) One of my names is "Morgan" so when a friend heard I was preparing to build a boat, and still hadn't decided on a name, add that I'm leaning towards a black or very dark blue hull, and black or other dark sails, rigged as a schooner; the name "Captain Morgan" was tossed out for consideration. LOL. Now I'd probably get sued by whomever puts out that rum, (its actually pretty good tho :) but perhaps an intimidating black steel hull with stainless trim carrying a black sailed schooner rig emblazened with a stylized Skull and Crossbones emblem with "BS-40" underneath would be just the ticket for shaking up the local fibreglasss clorox bottle yachting crowd:) Come to think of it. I still have the 1" blackpowder bronze signal cannon Huntingford made up for me. Hmmmmmm :) YO HO!!!! seer LOL :) > > seer > I've had painted sails for 10 years. > The first time,I used ARTIST'S material-acrylic paint for paintings-I > was told (by A Farrel)that a powder is available too but never saw it > lookin around....I MIXED the powerful artist acrylic with house > acrylic(Colour-yer-world) -it's ALL still on albeit it > wasn't "strong"enough to my mind-streaky and blotchy maybe because > the cloth was thick and "sized"or "rolled"or?...that is ,what I'd say > is in any case Crummy-and, I ran out near the bottom of the sail and > began to water it down....BUT it looks fine from a distance-shoreside- > observers seem to like it-I do too.How can people stand having a > huge white reflector in their face on a sunny day ???It is worth the > paint ForThisAlone. > The next sail,a small junk fores'l,is much prettier.The Sherwin > HouseTrimAcrylic paint penetrated right through and went much further > in area and is a perfect job-you couldn't tell it from dye.The cloth > was thinner,softer. > So,Lessons taken are:TEST IT and... that the cloth should be Just > Cloth no filler,additive, > ...that paint need be the best house trim acrylic-the most expensive- > if it says "latex"keep looking."AcrylicEnamel" is key but whether all > acrylic contains some latex rubber is unknown to me.Buy one can - > (write the chosen colour down and get a sample card for it) and try > it on the sample cloth-even a peak corner of your jib sail( because > if you chicken out, you'll least notice it there for the next 20 > years) Of course you can use the paint on canvas,wood,fibreglass > maybe even steel-it's the Best paint I've ever used though it seems > to like an extra thin coat for coverage. > whether or not my weightcrushed junk sail takes more punishment than > your flogging or furled triangles is probably not cogent-even on the > bad sail where it's sitting on top of the fibre,it may crease a line > or two but it's still ON the sail-I call it permanent.My sails are > used but not rotten.I don't cover them except when leaving the boat > more'n a month and I do this to keep them clean as much as anything > else .The paint Must be shielding uv -it sure aint hurtin' > Opinions:Remember that Perseus lost his father because of black sails- > a dark brown'd be just as good?Reds,browns I like but so do flies.I > will hoist in november and all these sleepy flies are gonna litter > the deck....coloured sails may be better in fog but worse at night - > you and nobody can see em.be careful to choose a Wildly artistic > pattern that you will like forever-ie:tatoos...and finally,this is a > point you won't have considered.You will attract attention.You will > be instantly recognizeable.Some people like this, some > don't.Personally,I envy the anonymity of white triangles-its not a > paranoia speaking-it's the frustration of constant collision courses > with looky-loos,clowns,Competers -if you do airbrushed babes on your > Lateen/Gaff/Junk/Claw/Square sail watch out! | 5838|5813|2004-10-14 15:01:39|brentswain38|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|A black steel hull is great in the high lattitudes in winter. I've been frozen in ice with the outside temperature minus 12 and when the sun hit the hull it felt warm to the touch, The lockers kept dry and mould free. In the tropics the opposite is tru and the cabin temperature will be ten degrees hotter during the day, insulation or no insulation. I paint my boat white, decks and all when going south, and it's like installing air conditioning. When I plan to stay north for a few years I paint it dark. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > :) hehe > > You're right. Hadn't considered the 'lookyloo' factor :) On the other > hand, hadn't considered 'sail tatoo art' either..hmmm interesting > possibilities there LOL. Especially since I'm quickly coming to > conclusions on how I want the ship to look :) > > One of my names is "Morgan" so when a friend heard I was preparing to > build a boat, and still hadn't decided on a name, add that I'm > leaning towards a black or very dark blue hull, and black or other > dark sails, rigged as a schooner; the name "Captain Morgan" was tossed > out for consideration. LOL. > > Now I'd probably get sued by whomever puts out that rum, (its actually > pretty good tho :) but perhaps an intimidating black steel hull with > stainless trim carrying a black sailed schooner rig emblazened with a > stylized Skull and Crossbones emblem with "BS-40" underneath would be > just the ticket for shaking up the local fibreglasss clorox bottle > yachting crowd:) > > Come to think of it. I still have the 1" blackpowder bronze signal > cannon Huntingford made up for me. Hmmmmmm :) > > YO HO!!!! > > seer > LOL :) > > > > > seer > > I've had painted sails for 10 years. > > The first time,I used ARTIST'S material-acrylic paint for paintings-I > > was told (by A Farrel)that a powder is available too but never saw it > > lookin around....I MIXED the powerful artist acrylic with house > > acrylic(Colour-yer-world) -it's ALL still on albeit it > > wasn't "strong"enough to my mind-streaky and blotchy maybe because > > the cloth was thick and "sized"or "rolled"or?...that is ,what I'd say > > is in any case Crummy-and, I ran out near the bottom of the sail and > > began to water it down....BUT it looks fine from a distance- shoreside- > > observers seem to like it-I do too.How can people stand having a > > huge white reflector in their face on a sunny day ???It is worth the > > paint ForThisAlone. > > The next sail,a small junk fores'l,is much prettier.The Sherwin > > HouseTrimAcrylic paint penetrated right through and went much further > > in area and is a perfect job-you couldn't tell it from dye.The cloth > > was thinner,softer. > > So,Lessons taken are:TEST IT and... that the cloth should be Just > > Cloth no filler,additive, > > ...that paint need be the best house trim acrylic-the most expensive- > > if it says "latex"keep looking."AcrylicEnamel" is key but whether all > > acrylic contains some latex rubber is unknown to me.Buy one can - > > (write the chosen colour down and get a sample card for it) and try > > it on the sample cloth-even a peak corner of your jib sail( because > > if you chicken out, you'll least notice it there for the next 20 > > years) Of course you can use the paint on canvas,wood,fibreglass > > maybe even steel-it's the Best paint I've ever used though it seems > > to like an extra thin coat for coverage. > > whether or not my weightcrushed junk sail takes more punishment than > > your flogging or furled triangles is probably not cogent-even on the > > bad sail where it's sitting on top of the fibre,it may crease a line > > or two but it's still ON the sail-I call it permanent.My sails are > > used but not rotten.I don't cover them except when leaving the boat > > more'n a month and I do this to keep them clean as much as anything > > else .The paint Must be shielding uv -it sure aint hurtin' > > Opinions:Remember that Perseus lost his father because of black sails- > > a dark brown'd be just as good?Reds,browns I like but so do flies.I > > will hoist in november and all these sleepy flies are gonna litter > > the deck....coloured sails may be better in fog but worse at night - > > you and nobody can see em.be careful to choose a Wildly artistic > > pattern that you will like forever-ie:tatoos...and finally,this is a > > point you won't have considered.You will attract attention.You will > > be instantly recognizeable.Some people like this, some > > don't.Personally,I envy the anonymity of white triangles-its not a > > paranoia speaking-it's the frustration of constant collision courses > > with looky-loos,clowns,Competers -if you do airbrushed babes on your > > Lateen/Gaff/Junk/Claw/Square sail watch out! | 5839|5813|2004-10-14 19:50:02|Ben Tucker|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Hi We used to Paint the seams on The brigantine I worked on to reduce the amount of chafing on the stiching, The paint was a clearish waterey stuff. It was going onto duradon (canvas/polyester mix) and stuck well. The old timers used to paint/soak their sails to stop them rotting, but stuff stucks better to canvas. We used to use cable ties as a quick mousing for shackles, white ones lasted about 1 month, black ones around a year! The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a rough sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong moonlight, which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The most pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, makes the nights alot friendlyer. Cheers Ben| 5840|5813|2004-10-15 02:52:28|seeratlas|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > > > The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a rough > sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong moonlight, > which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. > Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The most > pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, makes > the nights alot friendlyer. > > Cheers > > Ben Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle to Long Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, about 24 hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest swells I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that unless I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I heard later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all hands)..eventually I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally the wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having never been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I was exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid down in the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours later I was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a steam engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I crawled up to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection off of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight with a whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat which was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough of him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have been 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently enjoying the evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and beauty of the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that I'd never known before. It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me forever. seer| 5841|5841|2004-10-15 10:41:47|seeratlas|"Engine Bay Photos"|Can anyone tell me whose boat the "Engine Bay" photos in the Photo's section are from? I would very much like to ask a few questions of the owner of that boat. Thanx in advance :) And the photos are from July I believe. seer| 5842|5842|2004-10-15 18:18:28|seeratlas|cleat options|I've been looking at those oval stainless scuppers with welded horns which double as fairleads and cleats. You see them a lot on the new powerboats. I'd like to get some opinions/observations on whether anyone thinks these would/would not be suitable for a Swain hull. My own initial thoughts are that since the hulls have moderate bulwarks, and most everyone I've seen has a scupper/fairlead welded in, that adding cleat horns to these would get one more thing that whacks your toes in the dark, up off the deck and out of the way. Further, assuming you tied your lines off carefully, it looks to me that you have a good chance of drastically reducing chafe at the dock or in the slip as it should be possible to get nearly a straight shot at the dock cleat since the exit point of the line from the horns is in the open center of the scupper. I suppose we'd have to do some testing to make sure the horns were big enough/solid enough etc. to take a serious 'tug' but if that were the case, I don't see any reason why these kind of cleats wouldn't make sense, assuming the bulwark itself is strong enough to prevent 'bulging' under load. any thoughts? seer| 5843|5842|2004-10-15 18:27:24|Joe Earsley|Re: cleat options|There is this to think about: 1.) Sheet snag potential, Most cleats I've seen were on the extreme bow and stern. 2.) Toe bangs when going forward on the lee rail when pinching. ________________________________ From: seeratlas [mailto:seeratlas@...] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 2:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] cleat options I've been looking at those oval stainless scuppers with welded horns which double as fairleads and cleats. You see them a lot on the new powerboats. I'd like to get some opinions/observations on whether anyone thinks these would/would not be suitable for a Swain hull. My own initial thoughts are that since the hulls have moderate bulwarks, and most everyone I've seen has a scupper/fairlead welded in, that adding cleat horns to these would get one more thing that whacks your toes in the dark, up off the deck and out of the way. Further, assuming you tied your lines off carefully, it looks to me that you have a good chance of drastically reducing chafe at the dock or in the slip as it should be possible to get nearly a straight shot at the dock cleat since the exit point of the line from the horns is in the open center of the scupper. I suppose we'd have to do some testing to make sure the horns were big enough/solid enough etc. to take a serious 'tug' but if that were the case, I don't see any reason why these kind of cleats wouldn't make sense, assuming the bulwark itself is strong enough to prevent 'bulging' under load. any thoughts? seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here ________________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5844|5842|2004-10-15 19:18:32|fenixrises|Re: cleat options|Hi seer, Interesting that you brought this subject up as I was thinking along very similar lines. I have seen this done on a friends boat, it worked very well using 1/2" SS rod. I also thought about the stress of the hawse pipe cleat combination. Maybe an answer would be to make one or two mini-bollards out of 1" solid SS rod(used prop shafting) capped with a 2" disc of 1/4" SS. Place them about an inch away fore and aft of the hawse pipe, welded on the inner verticle face of the bulwark. Take care, Fred "seeratlas" wrote: > > I've been looking at those oval stainless scuppers with welded horns > which double as fairleads and cleats. You see them a lot on the new > powerboats. > > I'd like to get some opinions/observations on whether anyone thinks > these would/would not be suitable for a Swain hull. > > My own initial thoughts are that since the hulls have moderate > bulwarks, and most everyone I've seen has a scupper/fairlead welded > in, that adding cleat horns to these would get one more thing that > whacks your toes in the dark, up off the deck and out of the way. > Further, assuming you tied your lines off carefully, it looks to me > that you have a good chance of drastically reducing chafe at the dock > or in the slip as it should be possible to get nearly a straight shot > at the dock cleat since the exit point of the line from the horns is > in the open center of the scupper. > > I suppose we'd have to do some testing to make sure the horns were big > enough/solid enough etc. to take a serious 'tug' but if that were the > case, I don't see any reason why these kind of cleats wouldn't make > sense, assuming the bulwark itself is strong enough to prevent > 'bulging' under load. > > any thoughts? > > > seer | 5845|5813|2004-10-15 20:15:14|Ben Tucker|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Hi Seer, I like whales alot but wish someone would teach them the collision regs! have hit one at 15 knots on a plywood 45 footer (maybe two, was on a container ship, couldn't tell if we hit it or not) and nearly been rammed by another! this is one of the reasons I now have a steel boat. Cheers Ben| 5846|5813|2004-10-15 21:17:49|seeratlas|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Now that you bring that up, aside from the Essex, I always thought it was extremely rare for a whale to draw a bead on a boat, but I'm not so sure now. Seem to be a lot more reports of apparent attacks as opposed to accidental 'bumpings'. I've had more than one fisherman tell me of having to take evasive manuevers and two who told me they were rammed for no apparent reason. I'm with you on the steel boat rationale and accordingly I'm gearing up to join your status:) On strange occurences, I saw today that they are catching 5 and six foot long Hundbolt "flying" squid off Alaska? Picture on one of the news websites today. Didn't know they came that far north. I had occasion to hook one of those mutha's while night fishing off Baja in my dinghy (a portabote). I didn't know they had squid that big in Mexico so couldn't tell what it was till I got it up on the rail then wished I hadn't. A 6 foot squid is a handfull and half, in the water or not, and that sucker was MEAN, I'm telling you he wanted a piece of me in a big way. The grip he had on the side of the dingy was amazing, took everything I had and a good whack with an oar to finally get his sucker butt back over the side and cut the line. No thanks. Makes you wonder about the 17th century tales of the 60 foot Giant squid attacking ships and pulling sailors down. If they're as ill tempered as the Hundbolt, I sure wouldn't want to meet one. There's a thought LOL, wonder what the 'crush depth' of a properly sealed Swain hull is!! heheheh seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I like whales alot but wish someone would teach them the collision > regs! have hit one at 15 knots on a plywood 45 footer (maybe two, was > on a container ship, couldn't tell if we hit it or not) and nearly > been rammed by another! this is one of the reasons I now have a steel > boat. > > Cheers > > Ben | 5847|5847|2004-10-16 09:54:59|fenixrises|Gary Curtis designer|Hi all, Back in the mid 80's a friend of mine built a steel boat. This boat was designed and constructed in an origami method but not exactly pulled together like Brent's boats. It is made with five plates and longitudinal stringers and goes together in a fahion similar to Gerd's boat. It took me a while to find any information on the designer but here is a link to a page with some information about him. He is also a member of the Metal Boat Society. http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/Gary.htm The page also contains a link to another page about a voyage Gary Curtis made on his own boat. There is a thumbnail picture of the boat. If you click on it you can see a larger version. Gary's boat is a schooner. My friend's was the same hull and deck except he built his as a cutter. My friend's boat is a 50', fin keel, built with 3/16" corten steel for the hull and 1/8" or 10 guage for the deck. The boat was built origami style, that is no temporary framing over or around which the hull is built. He showed me pictures of the assembly. After the plates were cut and longitudinals added the plates were tacked together starting about at the middle of the boat's length. Then the plates were incrementally lifted as the tack welding continued, until completed. After that it was the normal add deck, the keel and rudder. Then weld all together and finish the interior. Happy sails to you, Fred| 5848|5848|2004-10-16 12:21:07|seeratlas|engine driven accesssories|First let me apologize for being so 'chatty', but I'm in 'design & planning mode) so I'm working my way through systems. I've seen where several builders have modified auto diesel's for powerplants. This seems to open up a number of inexpensive possibilities in the 45 to 60hp range which is what i'm looking at. First issue would be whether it is feasible to use the accompanying transmission, auto or stick, AND one interesting possibility would be to also try to employ a 4wd transfer case with second output shaft. I'm trying to put together in my mind an integrated cage mount for the engine/trans/transfer case, AND a group of driven accessories similar to what someone has built as shown in the 'engine bay' photos in the photo section. The idea of being able to manually select the transfer case to engage a myriad of optional units is appealing to me. Since I'm a diver, I have a scuba compressor to think about, perhaps another large alternator, an engine driven freezer compressor, hydraulic pump? BIG emergency water pump..well you get the idea. The thought of mounting the whole thing into a cage involves making sure everything is fixxed distance wise and 'vibrates' together so you don't get variable stresses on belts, pulleys what have you. Seems to me it would possible to soft mount the whole shebang using big auto engine mounts and a CV shaft to a fixxed thrustplate for the prop shaft. This would drastically reduce the vibration and consequent noise in the boat. Since my boat is at some point going to do a lot of european canal cruising under power, minimizing noise and vibration is a big thing. The 4wd transfer cases are cheap, some are very strong (the mitsu and toyo units in particular) and offer reduction ratios of between 2 and 3 to one. Has anyone ever tried or known someone who has, or even has heard of something like this? I'd appreciate all comments. seer| 5849|5847|2004-10-16 12:56:15|Puck III|Re: Gary Curtis designer|Thanks for the most interesting link . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Back in the mid 80's a friend of mine built a steel boat. > This boat was designed and constructed in an origami method but not > exactly pulled together like Brent's boats. > It is made with five plates and longitudinal stringers and goes > together in a fahion similar to Gerd's boat. > > It took me a while to find any information on the designer but here > is a link to a page with some information about him. He is also a > member of the Metal Boat Society. > > http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/Gary.htm > > The page also contains a link to another page about a voyage Gary > Curtis made on his own boat. There is a thumbnail picture of the > boat. If you click on it you can see a larger version. Gary's boat is > a schooner. My friend's was the same hull and deck except he built > his as a cutter. > > My friend's boat is a 50', fin keel, built with 3/16" corten steel > for the hull and 1/8" or 10 guage for the deck. The boat was built > origami style, that is no temporary framing over or around which the > hull is built. He showed me pictures of the assembly. After the > plates were cut and longitudinals added the plates were tacked > together starting about at the middle of the boat's length. Then the > plates were incrementally lifted as the tack welding continued, until > completed. After that it was the normal add deck, the keel and > rudder. Then weld all together and finish the interior. > > Happy sails to you, > Fred | 5850|5847|2004-10-16 13:32:24|seeratlas|Re: Gary Curtis designer|Don't miss his resume page, and then the article comparing aluminum to steel for yacht construction.. hehehe. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Thanks for the most interesting link . > Old Ben > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Back in the mid 80's a friend of mine built a steel boat. > > This boat was designed and constructed in an origami method > but not > > exactly pulled together like Brent's boats. > > It is made with five plates and longitudinal stringers and goes > > together in a fahion similar to Gerd's boat. > > > > It took me a while to find any information on the designer but > here > > is a link to a page with some information about him. He is also > a > > member of the Metal Boat Society. > > > > http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/Gary.htm > > > > The page also contains a link to another page about a voyage > Gary > > Curtis made on his own boat. There is a thumbnail picture of > the > > boat. If you click on it you can see a larger version. Gary's boat > is > > a schooner. My friend's was the same hull and deck except he > built > > his as a cutter. > > > > My friend's boat is a 50', fin keel, built with 3/16" corten steel > > for the hull and 1/8" or 10 guage for the deck. The boat was > built > > origami style, that is no temporary framing over or around > which the > > hull is built. He showed me pictures of the assembly. After the > > plates were cut and longitudinals added the plates were > tacked > > together starting about at the middle of the boat's length. Then > the > > plates were incrementally lifted as the tack welding continued, > until > > completed. After that it was the normal add deck, the keel and > > rudder. Then weld all together and finish the interior. > > > > Happy sails to you, > > Fred | 5851|5847|2004-10-16 18:25:02|Puck III|Re: Gary Curtis designer|hehehe......I did not miss it ! sound stuff !! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Don't miss his resume page, and then the article comparing aluminum to > steel for yacht construction.. hehehe. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > Thanks for the most interesting link . > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Back in the mid 80's a friend of mine built a steel boat. > > > This boat was designed and constructed in an origami method > > but not > > > exactly pulled together like Brent's boats. > > > It is made with five plates and longitudinal stringers and goes > > > together in a fahion similar to Gerd's boat. > > > > > > It took me a while to find any information on the designer but > > here > > > is a link to a page with some information about him. He is also > > a > > > member of the Metal Boat Society. > > > > > > http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/Gary.htm > > > > > > The page also contains a link to another page about a voyage > > Gary > > > Curtis made on his own boat. There is a thumbnail picture of > > the > > > boat. If you click on it you can see a larger version. Gary's boat > > is > > > a schooner. My friend's was the same hull and deck except he > > built > > > his as a cutter. > > > > > > My friend's boat is a 50', fin keel, built with 3/16" corten steel > > > for the hull and 1/8" or 10 guage for the deck. The boat was > > built > > > origami style, that is no temporary framing over or around > > which the > > > hull is built. He showed me pictures of the assembly. After the > > > plates were cut and longitudinals added the plates were > > tacked > > > together starting about at the middle of the boat's length. Then > > the > > > plates were incrementally lifted as the tack welding continued, > > until > > > completed. After that it was the normal add deck, the keel and > > > rudder. Then weld all together and finish the interior. > > > > > > Happy sails to you, > > > Fred | 5852|5852|2004-10-16 19:53:37|blueiceicle|Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|Hi everyone I know there was a thread on steel mast sometime ago, however i cant seem to find the info im looking for so i thought id just ask. I currently have brents plans for his 26ft but i pland to scale it up by 10-12% to make it about 28ft. Anyhow im dead set on having a steel mast reagardless if it ends up[ heavier then wood. Question is what size and schedule pipe to make it the most practical? Im planning on galvanized pipe if i can find it, and pressing it into a oval shape at work. (to bad our biggest break is only 16ft) anyways i think i can still do a couple 20ft lenghts carefully. I know steel will be heavier then wood because you can only go so small in tube wall size before its not practical, but finding that size is where id appreciate some input. Brent if you read this or anyone else in the comox valley, any input on a who could weld thin walled pipe (exceptionaly well and reasonably priced would be appreciated) Nobody wants the hasstle of a busted mast due to shoddy welding! thanks Jesse P.S. Im having trouble finding info on how the decks and cabin are supported... any bracing involved/ i have brents book aswell however im gapping out in finding the required info.??? Oh one last thing.. i was wondering what the recomended gauge stainless steel is for putting on the deck between the anchor winch and the bow roller, just to protect from chipping paint. any thoughts? thanks again| 5853|5813|2004-10-16 21:18:05|jim dorey|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 01:17:47 -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Now that you bring that up, aside from the Essex, I always thought it > was extremely rare for a whale to draw a bead on a boat, but I'm not > so sure now. Seem to be a lot more reports of apparent attacks as > opposed to accidental 'bumpings'. I've had more than one fisherman > tell me of having to take evasive manuevers and two who told me they > were rammed for no apparent reason. I'm with you on the steel boat > rationale and accordingly I'm gearing up to join your status:) apparently whales have these things called barnacles, and i'm told they itch, seems to me i'd be attacking boats as a potential backscratcher if i was infested with em. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5854|5813|2004-10-16 22:09:25|Carl Nostrand|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Great story seer, thanks. I've had many encounters with Killer whales in Alaskan waters. We would go whaling other longliners for a few years. The killers liked are black cod which was dragged up from 200-600 fathoms by hook and line. A crew of 5-7 could bait and fish about 20,000 hooks a day. Hooks every 36 inches, and to many miles of gear to haul and not enough time. Well, the killers loved black cod, and could tell the good boats from the bad boats by spy hopping, and the sound of are boat. Once the killers found us, we would just get heads and lips on are hooks, fishing was over. We would drop are gear back down in the deep gray green sea and drive over to another fishing boat and hopefully leave the whales there. We had a sea lion jump on deck once out in the bering sea, he was trying to hide from the killer whales. Right here drinking some tea and reading the local paper at the end of the Homer spit in my car, I glanced up and saw about 60 pound king salmon completely jump 3-4 feet out of the water with a Killer whale right on its tail...... KILLERS FEEDING ON KINGS!!! HE -YA! Carl Homer Alaska This is one hell of a water planet that we all live with-in. On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:51 PM, seeratlas wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: >> >> >> The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a rough >> sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong moonlight, >> which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. >> Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The most >> pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, makes >> the nights alot friendlyer. >> >> Cheers >> >> Ben > > Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle to Long > Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, about 24 > hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest swells > I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that unless > I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I heard > later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all hands)..eventually > I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally the > wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two > ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having never > been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I was > exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid down in > the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours later I > was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a steam > engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I crawled up > to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection off > of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight with a > whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat which > was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough of > him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have been > 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently enjoying the > evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional > tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and beauty of > the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam > alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that I'd > never known before. > > It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me forever. > > seer > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5855|5855|2004-10-16 22:38:36|blueiceicle|Steel info i thought id share|Not to nit pick , but 1/8 sheet metal is actually 11gauge metal not to 10 gauge. Sheet metal is refered to as whatever gauge sheet metal it is until 11g, 10g and anything thicker is called plate. Anyways, most assume 1/8th is 10g, and you will probaly get 10g if you order 1/8 sheet metal. But if you were to read a blueprint that calls for 1/8th steel in one place and 10g in a diffrent place, one could be wondering is really 11 g or 10g that is called for. Ive had this happen more then once! Just my to bitts anyways. hope that wasnt to whiney jesse| 5856|5813|2004-10-16 23:42:49|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|seeratlas wrote "Now that you bring that up, aside from the Essex, I always thought it was extremely rare for a whale to draw a bead on a boat, but I'm not so sure now. Seem to be a lot more reports of apparent attacks as opposed to accidental 'bumpings'" "Survive the Savage Sea" by Dougal Robertson is the story of survival of a family in a raft and dinghy for 37 days after their wooden schooner was attacked and summarily sunk by killer whales west of the Galapagos in 1972. "Staying Alive!" (also published as "117 Days Adrift") by Maurice and Maralyn Bailey recounts the even longer ordeal of a couple whose plywood sloop was sunk by a sperm whale (they suspected it had been wounded by a whaler) east of the Galapagos in 1973. Undoubtedly there have been other vessels attacked and sunk without survivors to tell the tale. How often it happens is pretty much a matter of conjecture. A steel hull would surely offer more protection than one of other material. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5857|5855|2004-10-16 23:57:51|Bruce Hallman|Re: Steel info i thought id share|> blueiceicle wrote: > > Not to nit pick , but 1/8 sheet metal is actually 11gauge metal > not to 10 gauge. Sheet metal is refered to as whatever gauge sheet > metal it is until 11g, 10g and anything thicker is called plate. What is a standard dimension of a sheet of sheet metal? For instance, plywood is 4 feet by 8 feet. Also, is 11 gauge, a normal 'stock' size? I though it came in even gauges, IE 10 gauge, 12 gauge, etc.| 5858|5848|2004-10-17 06:32:21|denis buggy|Re: engine driven accesssories|dear seer there is a tidy and tough solution to your needs , the leyland leopard /leyland tiger bus has a dedicated shaft drive gearbox from the crankshaft pully which currently runs alt /power steering /fan + vacant take off point . it uses poly discs to flex for the joint , we have run 3 of them for 15 years without attention apart from a yearly change of gear oil you can get them for 100/200 stg approx in bus scrap yards and you take the lot rubber mountings, bolts flange, and modify flange to fit your crank pulley . try trevor wrigley barnsley yorkshire england or any bus scrapyard alt will be 90 amp shaft drive butec 24 volt good for 300000 miles between overhaul as bearings are not stressed by fanbelt pulley . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] engine driven accesssories First let me apologize for being so 'chatty', but I'm in 'design & planning mode) so I'm working my way through systems. I've seen where several builders have modified auto diesel's for powerplants. This seems to open up a number of inexpensive possibilities in the 45 to 60hp range which is what i'm looking at. First issue would be whether it is feasible to use the accompanying transmission, auto or stick, AND one interesting possibility would be to also try to employ a 4wd transfer case with second output shaft. I'm trying to put together in my mind an integrated cage mount for the engine/trans/transfer case, AND a group of driven accessories similar to what someone has built as shown in the 'engine bay' photos in the photo section. The idea of being able to manually select the transfer case to engage a myriad of optional units is appealing to me. Since I'm a diver, I have a scuba compressor to think about, perhaps another large alternator, an engine driven freezer compressor, hydraulic pump? BIG emergency water pump..well you get the idea. The thought of mounting the whole thing into a cage involves making sure everything is fixxed distance wise and 'vibrates' together so you don't get variable stresses on belts, pulleys what have you. Seems to me it would possible to soft mount the whole shebang using big auto engine mounts and a CV shaft to a fixxed thrustplate for the prop shaft. This would drastically reduce the vibration and consequent noise in the boat. Since my boat is at some point going to do a lot of european canal cruising under power, minimizing noise and vibration is a big thing. The 4wd transfer cases are cheap, some are very strong (the mitsu and toyo units in particular) and offer reduction ratios of between 2 and 3 to one. Has anyone ever tried or known someone who has, or even has heard of something like this? I'd appreciate all comments. seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5859|5813|2004-10-17 12:53:00|Gary|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|I don't post much so perhaps hopefully this "post" will not offend being not origami related (P.S... I am launching 36' BS in December) You mentioned long lining for black cod. I read a New York Times article a while back that 90% of the major food fish stocks of the ocean are now gone. As a fisher do you feel this is at all accurate? Thanks Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand wrote: > Great story seer, thanks. > > I've had many encounters with Killer whales in Alaskan waters. We > would go whaling other longliners for a few years. The killers liked > are black cod which was dragged up from 200-600 fathoms by hook and > line. A crew of 5-7 could bait and fish about 20,000 hooks a day. Hooks > every 36 inches, and to many miles of gear to haul and not enough time. > Well, the killers loved black cod, and could tell the good boats from > the bad boats by spy hopping, and the sound of are boat. Once the > killers found us, we would just get heads and lips on are hooks, > fishing was over. We would drop are gear back down in the deep gray > green sea and drive over to another fishing boat and hopefully leave > the whales there. > > We had a sea lion jump on deck once out in the bering sea, he was > trying to hide from the killer whales. Right here drinking some tea and > reading the local paper at the end of the Homer spit in my car, I > glanced up and saw about 60 pound king salmon completely jump 3-4 feet > out of the water with a Killer whale right on its tail...... KILLERS > FEEDING ON KINGS!!! > > HE -YA! > > Carl > Homer Alaska > > This is one hell of a water planet that we all live with-in. > > > On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:51 PM, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a rough > >> sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong moonlight, > >> which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. > >> Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The most > >> pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, makes > >> the nights alot friendlyer. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Ben > > > > Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle to Long > > Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, about 24 > > hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest swells > > I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that unless > > I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I heard > > later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all hands)..eventually > > I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally the > > wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two > > ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having never > > been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I was > > exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid down in > > the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours later I > > was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a steam > > engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I crawled up > > to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection off > > of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight with a > > whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat which > > was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough of > > him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have been > > 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently enjoying the > > evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional > > tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and beauty of > > the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam > > alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that I'd > > never known before. > > > > It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me forever. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5860|5860|2004-10-17 13:01:11|Mike|Any welding questions?|All: If any members have questions related to welding processes, equipment or materials, I have opened a group for local welders. bc_welders@yahoogroups.com Among the first few members are two instructors from BCIT, Claude Henri & Cliff Grass. Cliff is an x-shipyard welder. Claude worked "on the pipeline" & with the Ironworkers. You don't have to be from B.C. or working in the steel industry to join. Regards, Mike| 5861|5852|2004-10-17 16:31:45|brentgeery|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > > Hi everyone > > I know there was a thread on steel mast sometime ago, however i cant > seem to find the info im looking for so i thought id just ask. > > I currently have brents plans for his 26ft but i pland to scale it up > by 10-12% to make it about 28ft. Anyhow im dead set on having a steel > mast reagardless if it ends up[ heavier then wood. Question is what > size and schedule pipe to make it the most practical? Im planning on > galvanized pipe if i can find it, and pressing it into a oval shape > at work. (to bad our biggest break is only 16ft) anyways i think i > can still do a couple 20ft lenghts carefully. > > I know steel will be heavier then wood because you can only go so > small in tube wall size before its not practical, but finding that > size is where id appreciate some input. > > Brent if you read this or anyone else in the comox valley, any input > on a who could weld thin walled pipe (exceptionaly well and > reasonably priced would be appreciated) Nobody wants the hasstle of a > busted mast due to shoddy welding! Much of this info is from my last message on this subject, as I'm also looking into using a steel mast on my 26 footer. "Assuming the solid wood stick would weigh 6.19 lbs per linear foot (total of about 205 lbs), anyone have a better estimate on the wood weight?) A mast of rectangular steel tube 4"x3"x1/8" would weigh about 185 lbs, and 4"x3"x3/16" would weigh 269 lbs. Looking at the round stuff, 3"od x 1/4" wall would weigh 242 lbs, 3.5"od x 1/4" wall comes in at 287 lbs." So, a steel mast does not really have to weight more than a solid wood mast, assuming something like the steel tube 4"x3"x1/8" would be strong enough (the hull is also 1/8 / 10 gauge, so if you can weld that, the mast welding should not be an issue.)| 5862|5852|2004-10-17 17:55:41|Mike|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|Jesse: You might find this illuminating: http://www.anchoryachts.com/cus046sco1_2.htm Herein, the author describes the building of a 46' steel yacht (I think it was a ketch?), including his mast specs. He was using 220 dia. mild steel tubing for his main & 140mm for his mizzen. Wall thickness was 3.2mm. If you plan to "squish" your mast tubing, I would suggest preheating, as you will find this easier for bending & less stressful on the seam. I would also suggest, however, that leaving the mast tubing "round" would be a better idea. Hope this helps. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > > Hi everyone > > I know there was a thread on steel mast sometime ago, however i cant > seem to find the info im looking for so i thought id just ask. > > I currently have brents plans for his 26ft but i pland to scale it up > by 10-12% to make it about 28ft. Anyhow im dead set on having a steel > mast reagardless if it ends up[ heavier then wood. Question is what > size and schedule pipe to make it the most practical? Im planning on > galvanized pipe if i can find it, and pressing it into a oval shape > at work. (to bad our biggest break is only 16ft) anyways i think i > can still do a couple 20ft lenghts carefully. > > I know steel will be heavier then wood because you can only go so > small in tube wall size before its not practical, but finding that > size is where id appreciate some input. > > Brent if you read this or anyone else in the comox valley, any input > on a who could weld thin walled pipe (exceptionaly well and > reasonably priced would be appreciated) Nobody wants the hasstle of a > busted mast due to shoddy welding! > > thanks Jesse > > > P.S. Im having trouble finding info on how the decks and cabin are > supported... any bracing involved/ i have brents book aswell however > im gapping out in finding the required info.??? > > > Oh one last thing.. i was wondering what the recomended gauge > stainless steel is for putting on the deck between the anchor winch > and the bow roller, just to protect from chipping paint. any thoughts? > > thanks again | 5863|5852|2004-10-17 18:53:21|brentgeery|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Jesse: > You might find this illuminating: > http://www.anchoryachts.com/cus046sco1_2.htm > Herein, the author describes the building of a 46' steel yacht (I > think it was a ketch?), including his mast specs. > He was using 220 dia. mild steel tubing for his main & 140mm for his > mizzen. Wall thickness was 3.2mm. 3.2mm... 1/8 inch. So, 1/8 would seem to be strong enough for the 26 footer. Now, the task of selecting the pipe OD. 3", 3.5", or 4", or ??? I'd think 4" would be more than enough! Any ideas? What he says about steel masts, is also why I'm leaning towards them: "I decided to build the masts out of steel for a number of reasons. Contrary to popular belief steel masts are lighter than solid wooden spars and marginally heavier than most hollow wooden masts. Cost and ease of construction was another deciding factor. It is also my opinion that a well painted steel mast requires far less maintenance than a wooden mast and, never any nasty dry rot surprises!"| 5864|5855|2004-10-17 19:18:00|blueiceicle|Re: Steel info i thought id share|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > blueiceicle wrote: > > > > Not to nit pick , but 1/8 sheet metal is actually 11gauge metal > > not to 10 gauge. Sheet metal is refered to as whatever gauge sheet > > metal it is until 11g, 10g and anything thicker is called plate. > > What is a standard dimension of a sheet of sheet metal? > For instance, plywood is 4 feet by 8 feet. > > Also, is 11 gauge, a normal 'stock' size? I though it came > in even gauges, IE 10 gauge, 12 gauge, etc. Sheet metal has a wide range of standardized sizes, more so then plywood i would imagine. Ive only heard of 4x8 for wood, not to say that there isnt more sizes. 3/16 plate 7g is a common odd gauge that is used. Sheet metal standard sizes that i know of are 30x98" 36x98" 36x120" 48x96" 48x120". things change a bit with aluminum and stainless, but thats another story. If your ordering 3/16 (7g) or thicker you can get a more custom lengths. but i think most suppliers have standard widths for thicker plates 4'5'6'7'8' , not to sure if you can get wider. You can order 11g however its not a common stock, depends on the type of material as well. The material thickness of metal sheets varies by almost 1/2 a gauge thickness. mild steel is smaller then stainless and stainless is smaller then aluminum. On top of that, almost no material you order will be the full thickness of its respective gauge. Leading me full circle back to why i brought this topic up, I find it is just better practice to refere to a material by its gauge rather then its rough fractional equivalent. Clarity is key for me. sorry to all, if i ofend anyone, not my intent. these are just my thoughts anyhow regards jesse| 5865|5841|2004-10-17 19:36:25|gschnell|Re: "Engine Bay Photos"|Sorry, those are mine. I thought the upload was unsucessful. Didn't realize they had been posted. Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Can anyone tell me whose boat the "Engine Bay" photos in the Photo's > section are from? I would very much like to ask a few questions of > the owner of that boat. > > Thanx in advance :) > > And the photos are from July I believe. > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5866|5855|2004-10-17 20:57:15|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel info i thought id share|For those of you who didn't know. The gauge of sheet metal originated as the number of passes it took through the rolling mill to get it to that thickness. Hence the higher the number the thinner the material. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "blueiceicle" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 7:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel info i thought id share > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > > blueiceicle wrote: > > > > > > Not to nit pick , but 1/8 sheet metal is actually 11gauge metal > > > not to 10 gauge. Sheet metal is refered to as whatever gauge > sheet > > > metal it is until 11g, 10g and anything thicker is called plate. > > > > What is a standard dimension of a sheet of sheet metal? > > For instance, plywood is 4 feet by 8 feet. > > > > Also, is 11 gauge, a normal 'stock' size? I though it came > > in even gauges, IE 10 gauge, 12 gauge, etc. > > Sheet metal has a wide range of standardized sizes, more so then > plywood i would imagine. Ive only heard of 4x8 for wood, not to say > that there isnt more sizes. 3/16 plate 7g is a common odd gauge that > is used. Sheet metal standard sizes that i know of are 30x98" 36x98" > 36x120" 48x96" 48x120". > things change a bit with aluminum and stainless, but thats another > story. > > If your ordering 3/16 (7g) or thicker you can get a more custom > lengths. but i think most suppliers have standard widths for thicker > plates 4'5'6'7'8' , not to sure if you can get wider. > > You can order 11g however its not a common stock, depends on the type > of material as well. The material thickness of metal sheets varies by > almost 1/2 a gauge thickness. mild steel is smaller then stainless > and stainless is smaller then aluminum. On top of that, almost no > material you order will be the full thickness of its respective > gauge. > > Leading me full circle back to why i brought this topic up, I find it > is just better practice to refere to a material by its gauge rather > then its rough fractional equivalent. Clarity is key for me. > > sorry to all, if i ofend anyone, not my intent. these are just my > thoughts anyhow > > regards jesse > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5867|5813|2004-10-17 20:57:28|Ben Tucker|Re: Colored Sail Longevity (now whale tails)|Hi > seeratlas wrote > "Now that you bring that up, aside from the Essex, I always thought it > was extremely rare for a whale to draw a bead on a boat, but I'm not > so sure now. Seem to be a lot more reports of apparent attacks as > opposed to accidental 'bumpings'" Yes I've also heard of more reports of agressive whales, and the one that charged me certainly seemed either very aggresive, curious or just 'lonely'. It was a small minke or some type of little baleen whale about 15-20 foot long, after circling the boat for 10 minutes he charged and reared his head out of the water, swinging it just in time to miss the rudder (it was a double ender) I jumped clear of the tiller just in case. The whale we hit was a young sperm, just off the edge of the south australian current, we were surfing nicely at top speeds of 15-20 knots with a good 30 knot Southerly behind us. Next thing two big sperms are in the water ahead of us. We missed them but clouted a little one in between them, there was lots of brown blood in the water behind us, and a crew on the windward side saw a small tail fluke. I Hope the whale was Ok, but at the time we were more worried about us (no dammage to the ply hull, we think it slid along the chine). Another incident I read about in the tasman put the willies up me, a small Fglass yacht was repeatably attacked for a couple of hours by a pod of sperm whales, bending the propshaft, detaching bulkheads and dammaging the rudder! They stopped at lord howe Is and repaired the worst of the dammage there. I know you can't trust what you read but!! Cheers Ben| 5868|5852|2004-10-17 21:07:49|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|Mike, I happen to be stuck in a motel in upstate New York at the moment, doing work at a steel tubing plant! This place only makes sizes up to about 1-1/2" Mostly they make the smaller sizes, like what is used in refrigeration and brake lines. They produce welded steel tubing here by the resistance weld method and induction welding. It is quite amazing to see a strip of steel rolled into a tube and continuously welded at 400 feet per minute. Even more amazing though is to watch a tube that was just welded at a diameter of 5/8" get further rolled and reduced to just 3/16" as it passes down the line! I wouldn't worry at all about the weld seam breaking if you squished the tube oval. I would however be concerned about annealing the tubing with the heat and loosing the work hardening that it was produced with. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 5:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains > > > Jesse: > You might find this illuminating: > http://www.anchoryachts.com/cus046sco1_2.htm > Herein, the author describes the building of a 46' steel yacht (I > think it was a ketch?), including his mast specs. > He was using 220 dia. mild steel tubing for his main & 140mm for his > mizzen. Wall thickness was 3.2mm. If you plan to "squish" your mast > tubing, I would suggest preheating, as you will find this easier for > bending & less stressful on the seam. I would also suggest, however, > that leaving the mast tubing "round" would be a better idea. > Hope this helps. > Regards, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone > > > > I know there was a thread on steel mast sometime ago, however i > cant > > seem to find the info im looking for so i thought id just ask. > > > > I currently have brents plans for his 26ft but i pland to scale it > up > > by 10-12% to make it about 28ft. Anyhow im dead set on having a > steel > > mast reagardless if it ends up[ heavier then wood. Question is > what > > size and schedule pipe to make it the most practical? Im planning > on > > galvanized pipe if i can find it, and pressing it into a oval > shape > > at work. (to bad our biggest break is only 16ft) anyways i think > i > > can still do a couple 20ft lenghts carefully. > > > > I know steel will be heavier then wood because you can only go so > > small in tube wall size before its not practical, but finding that > > size is where id appreciate some input. > > > > Brent if you read this or anyone else in the comox valley, any > input > > on a who could weld thin walled pipe (exceptionaly well and > > reasonably priced would be appreciated) Nobody wants the hasstle > of a > > busted mast due to shoddy welding! > > > > thanks Jesse > > > > > > P.S. Im having trouble finding info on how the decks and cabin > are > > supported... any bracing involved/ i have brents book aswell > however > > im gapping out in finding the required info.??? > > > > > > Oh one last thing.. i was wondering what the recomended gauge > > stainless steel is for putting on the deck between the anchor > winch > > and the bow roller, just to protect from chipping paint. any > thoughts? > > > > thanks again > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5869|5813|2004-10-17 21:31:42|seeratlas|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Gary, I recently had occasion to run into a long time salmon sport fisherman friend of mine who's been making the run up the inland passage to Alaska and back for some 30 years now. When I asked him how the fishing was on his latest trip, his reply was that 'all the big fish are gone'. I can recall 25 years ago when he and I used to routinely catch 50-60 lb King's and occasionally have hits that would just tear the gear all to pieces before it broke off the line, he assures me those days are gone and probably won't ever return. Apparently the winner of this years Campbell River tourney was a comparative minnow. I don't know that I buy into the 90 percent figure. An awful lot of fish eating people would be starving to death if that was the case. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > I don't post much so perhaps hopefully this "post" will not offend > being not origami related (P.S... I am launching 36' BS in December) > You mentioned long lining for black cod. I read a New York Times > article a while back that 90% of the major food fish stocks of the > ocean are now gone. As a fisher do you feel this is at all accurate? > > Thanks > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand > wrote: > > Great story seer, thanks. > > > > I've had many encounters with Killer whales in Alaskan waters. We > > would go whaling other longliners for a few years. The killers > liked > > are black cod which was dragged up from 200-600 fathoms by hook > and > > line. A crew of 5-7 could bait and fish about 20,000 hooks a day. > Hooks > > every 36 inches, and to many miles of gear to haul and not enough > time. > > Well, the killers loved black cod, and could tell the good boats > from > > the bad boats by spy hopping, and the sound of are boat. Once the > > killers found us, we would just get heads and lips on are hooks, > > fishing was over. We would drop are gear back down in the deep > gray > > green sea and drive over to another fishing boat and hopefully > leave > > the whales there. > > > > We had a sea lion jump on deck once out in the bering sea, he was > > trying to hide from the killer whales. Right here drinking some > tea and > > reading the local paper at the end of the Homer spit in my car, I > > glanced up and saw about 60 pound king salmon completely jump 3-4 > feet > > out of the water with a Killer whale right on its tail...... > KILLERS > > FEEDING ON KINGS!!! > > > > HE -YA! > > > > Carl > > Homer Alaska > > > > This is one hell of a water planet that we all live with-in. > > > > > > On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:51 PM, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a > rough > > >> sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong > moonlight, > > >> which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. > > >> Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The > most > > >> pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, > makes > > >> the nights alot friendlyer. > > >> > > >> Cheers > > >> > > >> Ben > > > > > > Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle > to Long > > > Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, > about 24 > > > hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest > swells > > > I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that > unless > > > I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I > heard > > > later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all > hands)..eventually > > > I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally > the > > > wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two > > > ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having > never > > > been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I > was > > > exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid > down in > > > the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours > later I > > > was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a > steam > > > engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I > crawled up > > > to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection > off > > > of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight > with a > > > whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat > which > > > was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough > of > > > him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have > been > > > 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently > enjoying the > > > evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional > > > tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and > beauty of > > > the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam > > > alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that > I'd > > > never known before. > > > > > > It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me > forever. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5870|5813|2004-10-17 21:32:09|seeratlas|/fish stocks|Gary, I recently had occasion to run into a long time salmon sport fisherman friend of mine who's been making the run up the inland passage to Alaska and back for some 30 years now. When I asked him how the fishing was on his latest trip, his reply was that 'all the big fish are gone'. I can recall 25 years ago when he and I used to routinely catch 50-60 lb King's and occasionally have hits that would just tear the gear all to pieces before it broke off the line, he assures me those days are gone and probably won't ever return. Apparently the winner of this years Campbell River tourney was a comparative minnow. I don't know that I buy into the 90 percent figure. An awful lot of fish eating people would be starving to death if that was the case. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > I don't post much so perhaps hopefully this "post" will not offend > being not origami related (P.S... I am launching 36' BS in December) > You mentioned long lining for black cod. I read a New York Times > article a while back that 90% of the major food fish stocks of the > ocean are now gone. As a fisher do you feel this is at all accurate? > > Thanks > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand > wrote: > > Great story seer, thanks. > > > > I've had many encounters with Killer whales in Alaskan waters. We > > would go whaling other longliners for a few years. The killers > liked > > are black cod which was dragged up from 200-600 fathoms by hook > and > > line. A crew of 5-7 could bait and fish about 20,000 hooks a day. > Hooks > > every 36 inches, and to many miles of gear to haul and not enough > time. > > Well, the killers loved black cod, and could tell the good boats > from > > the bad boats by spy hopping, and the sound of are boat. Once the > > killers found us, we would just get heads and lips on are hooks, > > fishing was over. We would drop are gear back down in the deep > gray > > green sea and drive over to another fishing boat and hopefully > leave > > the whales there. > > > > We had a sea lion jump on deck once out in the bering sea, he was > > trying to hide from the killer whales. Right here drinking some > tea and > > reading the local paper at the end of the Homer spit in my car, I > > glanced up and saw about 60 pound king salmon completely jump 3-4 > feet > > out of the water with a Killer whale right on its tail...... > KILLERS > > FEEDING ON KINGS!!! > > > > HE -YA! > > > > Carl > > Homer Alaska > > > > This is one hell of a water planet that we all live with-in. > > > > > > On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:51 PM, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a > rough > > >> sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong > moonlight, > > >> which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. > > >> Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The > most > > >> pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, > makes > > >> the nights alot friendlyer. > > >> > > >> Cheers > > >> > > >> Ben > > > > > > Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle > to Long > > > Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, > about 24 > > > hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest > swells > > > I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that > unless > > > I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I > heard > > > later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all > hands)..eventually > > > I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally > the > > > wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two > > > ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having > never > > > been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I > was > > > exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid > down in > > > the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours > later I > > > was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a > steam > > > engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I > crawled up > > > to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection > off > > > of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight > with a > > > whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat > which > > > was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough > of > > > him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have > been > > > 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently > enjoying the > > > evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional > > > tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and > beauty of > > > the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam > > > alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that > I'd > > > never known before. > > > > > > It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me > forever. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5871|5813|2004-10-17 23:48:50|Michael Casling|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|The skipper of one of the boats hit by a whale wondered if the colour of the hull might have something to do with it. I do not know if any research has been done about shape and colour of a hull or material used. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: RICHARD KOKEMOOR To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 8:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Colored Sail Longevity seeratlas wrote "Now that you bring that up, aside from the Essex, I always thought it was extremely rare for a whale to draw a bead on a boat, but I'm not so sure now. Seem to be a lot more reports of apparent attacks as opposed to accidental 'bumpings'" "Survive the Savage Sea" by Dougal Robertson is the story of survival of a family in a raft and dinghy for 37 days after their wooden schooner was attacked and summarily sunk by killer whales west of the Galapagos in 1972. "Staying Alive!" (also published as "117 Days Adrift") by Maurice and Maralyn Bailey recounts the even longer ordeal of a couple whose plywood sloop was sunk by a sperm whale (they suspected it had been wounded by a whaler) east of the Galapagos in 1973. Undoubtedly there have been other vessels attacked and sunk without survivors to tell the tale. How often it happens is pretty much a matter of conjecture. A steel hull would surely offer more protection than one of other material. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5872|5872|2004-10-18 02:21:58|Bill Jaine|windlass/winch|In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. Does anyone know any reason why I couldn�t use a vehicle recovery winch with wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor (Bruce 33, 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1� nylon). The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian ($300 US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable and remote switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn�t it? I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the anchor roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach that to the anchor and have an anchoring system that�s reasonably efficient in day to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about kills me these days! Bill Port Hope. Canada --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5873|5852|2004-10-18 05:37:19|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|I have also given some thought to steel or wooden masts. I was considering laying up a strip mast the same way a strip canoe is built. In that way you can fiberglass the inside of the mast, slap the two halves together and then fiberglass the outside. You might even want to add some carbon fibers? The steel mast I had in mind would also be built in halves and welded together. I was considering forming 10´ lengths of higher strength steel, offsetting the joints, zinc coating the inside and welding it together. One weld joint could include a 1/2 inch ID stainless tube, slotted for the sail guides. Either mast could be tapered to reduce weight. Gerald| 5874|5874|2004-10-18 07:29:39|seeratlas|Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|Hi all, first sorry bout the double post glitch. I'm at the point where I'm trying to scope out my deck layout and in reviewing the photos section, I don't seem to see any deck track for any of the various sheet leads. What are you guys using for fairleads and where are you putting them? The one REALLY nice item I saw was that nifty homemade stainless snatchblock for the pipe toerail. If whomever built that has any more detailed photos or 'words of wisdom' for building them, I'd appreciate hearing that too. As for the main, is anyone using track? a length of bent pipe? or just multipart tackle? Next, has anyone decided to go for a club on the staysail for self tending? or worked out any other arrangement? Lastly, has everyone decided to stick with the sloop/cutter/double headsail sloop rig? or has anyone decided to go with a divided rig? Thanks in advance for any comments or observations.:) seer FYI- I've been scoping out two possibilities on the 40'. First a simplified schooner using the Wharram type of wrap-around soft 'wingsail' which requires no mast track, hoops, lacing or other nonsense and would present a pretty fair airfoil section on the round aluminum pipe masts I envision, and second, a modern variation on the staysail schooner employing brent's roller reefing gear on the main staysail, the forestaysail and the jib making 'reefing' essentially a non-issue.| 5875|5872|2004-10-18 13:24:51|seeratlas|Re: windlass/winch|Bill, I've done a lot of 4whling over the years and have this to say about electric vehicle winches. Almost all of them use essentially starter motors. These things are meant for intermittent use and if I was going to use one on a boat, I think I'd give some serious thought to how to protect it from corrosion and shorting out which could cause a fire on your boat. Frankly, I like Brent's on deck design which is simple, and versatile, and nearly impossible to steal. In my runs up and down the BC coast to Alaska and back, nearly every fisherman I've seen uses some variation of the hydraulic deck mounted cable winch, usually with a length of chain at the anchor end to deal with abrasion on the bottom and provide some 'weight' for anchor 'bite'. Brent's design is dead simple and can easily incorporate hydraulic power both in and out which is 80 percent or better 'duty cycle'. An exposed electric starter motor on the bow of a ocean going boat seems to me a pretty bad idea..especially one like an auto mounted one with no provision for manual recovery of your anchor. Let me give you a 'for instance'. Not so long ago I attended the wooden boat show in Port Townsend. In order to make way for the show boats in the marina, it appeared that they had moved some fibreglass boats out off the downtown shore. When the wind came up in a big way from the south, they began dragging. I saw the recovery team come in with a powerboat to pull one unattended boat out just in time while several owners charged out to their boats which were really bobbing up and down and starting to drag. To see those guys up on the bow being drenched by the seas comeing green onboard was not encouraging. In Wyoming if you ride something bucking that much for 8 seconds, you're usually in the money :) Imagine if you will, your electric quitting (as most things electric do) when you MOST need it..you could easily lose your boat. These are the moments when a simple auto/bus/powersteering pump run off your main engine or electric pump (or both) operable from the cockpit, and driving an essentially waterproof hydraulic motor on one of Brent's ondeck windlasses, REALLY pays off...Cheap, strong as hell, can't short out, and WILL pull your anchor up all by itself while you're trying to save your boat. If you go anywhere off the dock, you WILL find yourself in this situation sooner or later either from a wind change, tidal change, or most likely, some numbnuts around you who have anchored improperly and wake you up in the middl of the night when they all start dragging right towards your freshly painted topsides. :) To be fair, the commercial electric windlass guys get away with their motors by either 1. sticking them under the deck i.e. vertical windlasses, or 2. sealing them inside some sort of quasi-water resistant housing. Neither of these would apply to your vehicle recovery winch. If you want to install one windlass and do it one time, go hydraulic, with manual backup. Handling big ground tackle (which is what you want) is a tough job by hand, by electric (you have to stop frequently to keep from overheating the motor), but is a cinch by hydraulic. If you can raise and lower easily, it will encourage you to go ahead and re-anchor till you are satisfied with your holding and location in instances where otherwise you might just shrug off your concerns and 'hope for the best' which is a good way to end up a participant in the midnight 'chinese fire drills' that you're goin to run into anywhere you go where there is more than just a couple of boats at anchor. The foregoing is just my humble opinion, but I could you tell you stories about the three ringed circuses I've seen over the years. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. > > > > Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't use a vehicle recovery winch with > wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. > > > > I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor (Bruce 33, > 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1" nylon). > > > > The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian ($300 > US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable and remote > switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of > vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn't it? > > > > I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the anchor > roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach that to > the anchor and have an anchoring system that's reasonably efficient in day > to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about kills me > these days! > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5876|5876|2004-10-18 19:20:28|knutfg|Standing rig|Hi, I don't recall if I read it in Brent's book or in a posting on this forum, but the recommendation was for high tensile hot dip galvanized steel wire for the standing rig. What I also seem to recall was a statement about epoxy coating in this context. Specifically, can somebody enlighten me we the following information: - what is the actual specification for this type of wire for a Brent Swain 36' boat? Type, diameter, failure load, yield load etc. - where can I by such wire (what kind of businesses are selling)? - what was the meaning of the "epoxy coating" statement? Coating all the length of all the wires by epoxy, or was it just a matter of sealing off the fittings at both ends? Greatful for all help. Knut| 5877|5877|2004-10-18 21:47:27|rdvqpkknnrz|Important Letter for origamiboats Members|Are you in debt? If so we can help We are helping hundreds of people consolidate debt every day Become one of our happy customers stop in today. http://grealus.com/adghu please copy and paste the above link into your web-browser. Debt relief is here at last. We specialize in debt consolidation. See why thousands of people use our services. We will provide a better future for you. copy and paste the following link into your web browser now http://grealus.com/adghu Debt consolidation is only a single click away. Take thirty seconds and minimize outrageous bills. If Credit companies are coming after you we can help. http://grealus.com/adehu Copy and paste the above link into your web browser. Minimize your debt now. http://grealus.com/adehu This email was sent because you joined our group. If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com| 5878|5876|2004-10-18 23:44:05|Paul Cotter|Re: Standing rig|Knut, I’m trying to track down some of the same information. Here are a few morsels. I noticed all the guy wires for the utility poles where I live are 1 x 7 (what Brent recommends) galvanized wire. I have a friend who works for the utility company tracking down the specs for the wire they use. I found a few local shops who supply utility companies, run electrical cable, build commercial buildings, and/or build communications towers sell it. Not all sell 1 X 7; most sell 7 X 19 and the like. Some sell only in quantity; one guy wanted to sell me 5000 feet of wire (Hey harbor, the new rigging is on me!). Anyway, your local utility company may tell you who their supplier is. So far I have found ¼ inch (for a 26 footer) for about $0.20/foot. I’ve been getting the run around on the high tensile strength distinction. Not that I don’t trust people, but I am never quite sure if the folks in the shops I’ve talked to really can distinguish low and high strength wire. I’ve heard a few classifications (like A grade) thrown around, but I don’t know if that is an industry standard. I’ll keep looking. Brent states in his book that 5/16 has breaking strength of around 12,000#. Not sure if that is the diameter he recommends for a 36. That is about all I know. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: knutfg [mailto:knutfg@...] Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 3:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Standing rig Hi, I don't recall if I read it in Brent's book or in a posting on this forum, but the recommendation was for high tensile hot dip galvanized steel wire for the standing rig. What I also seem to recall was a statement about epoxy coating in this context. Specifically, can somebody enlighten me we the following information: - what is the actual specification for this type of wire for a Brent Swain 36' boat? Type, diameter, failure load, yield load etc. - where can I by such wire (what kind of businesses are selling)? - what was the meaning of the "epoxy coating" statement? Coating all the length of all the wires by epoxy, or was it just a matter of sealing off the fittings at both ends? Greatful for all help. Knut To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5879|5879|2004-10-19 03:46:47|sae140|Aluminium anodes|Someone asked a while back why aluminium wasn't used for sacrificial galvanic anodes. The short answer is that it is indeed used commercially for cathodic protection. In terms of ampere hours per kilogram, aluminium has by far the highest current capacity (300 mV against protected steel, delivering approximately 2700 Ah/Kg. #) when compared to zinc (220 mV against protected steel, delivering approximately 780 Ah/Kg. #) and is thus the preferred anode material in sacrificial anode cathodic protection, providing that a small amount (2.5 - 5%) of indium is added to prevent passivation (the formation of an alumina film - essentially an electrically inert protective skin which reduces the amount of available anodic surface area). (#) = http://www.polcor.gr/polcath.htm If memory serves, the indium acts as a catalyst, enabling the preferential surface formation of soluble aluminium chloride in the presence of seawater. So - providing you can source some indium (very low melting point, easy to work with), aluminium anodes are a brilliant idea. However, without the indium they appear to be a non-starter. As zinc anodes remain the de facto standard, I can only assume that the economics of production favour zinc, which will also need replacing more often than their ally equivalent ! Colin| 5880|5880|2004-10-19 03:51:11|sae140|back-light scatter|Is anyone else troubled by back-light scatter when using a modern multi-layer auto-darkening helmet outdoors when the sun's behind you ? A rear hood fashioned from a piece of dark material helps - but the usual face-shield style helmets do not have any simple provision for attaching this kind of rear light shield. Don't the manufacturers anticipate such an obvious problem occuring - or is it just me and my aging eyesight ? Colin| 5881|5872|2004-10-19 07:41:17|Bill Jaine|Re: windlass/winch|Thank you Seer, that is a most comprehensive, illuminating answer and has opened up a whole new options for me. Bill Bill Port Hope. Canada --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5882|5880|2004-10-19 09:03:08|carlmbentley|Re: back-light scatter|not quite sure what you mean by back light scatter. i have a regular hood not an automatic, when the sun is behind me i have a very hard time seeing what i'm doing. i tried turning my head at an angle and even having a ladder behind me with something leaning against it. now i plan my welding so i'm always on the shady side of the boat. this keeps me a little cooler and negates the need for sunblock on my neck :) -carl building a 36 in florida > Is anyone else troubled by back-light scatter when using a modern > multi-layer auto-darkening helmet outdoors when the sun's behind you ? > A rear hood fashioned from a piece of dark material helps - but the > usual face-shield style helmets do not have any simple provision for > attaching this kind of rear light shield. Don't the manufacturers > anticipate such an obvious problem occuring - or is it just me and my > aging eyesight ? > Colin | 5883|5353|2004-10-19 18:46:04|John Langelo|Re: Would like to visit other 36 footers|Hi guys I've seen a Brent boat finished and moored in Genoa Bay. I'm in the very slow procces of building a steel boat in Duncan as well. Good Luck! John kingsknight4life wrote: Hi. My girlfriend and I are in the process of building a 36 ft. twinkeel, Swain boat. We are trying to decide on and get ideas for the interior/layout of our boat. If there is anyone on the Island who'd like to show off their boat and probably answer lots of questions from newbies, we'd REALLY appreciate it. BTW we live in the Duncan area but can travel almost anywhere. Thanks Rowland (and Bev) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5884|5852|2004-10-19 18:54:01|Mike|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|Gary: Fair enough! I won't argue with a guy who turns skelp for a living. Besides, at the wall thickness I mentioned(3.2mm), the force required to "ovalize" the tubing shouldn't be too much.Then again, I wouldn't worry about the pipe losing it's properties through pre- heating. I am no whiz at pipe, though. Can you tell me if there is a nickel-chromium steel alloy tubing available, or would this be a made-to-order situation? Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: "... I wouldn't worry at all about the weld seam breaking if you squished the > tube oval. I would however be concerned about annealing the tubing with the > heat and loosing the work hardening that it was produced with." | 5885|5880|2004-10-19 19:24:07|Mike|Re: back-light scatter|Colin: I find it difficult to weld with either auto-darkening or regular lenses when I have the sun, or another welder behind me. I have a hat that I wear that has a length of cloth that hangs down to protect your neck from the sun(safari hat?). I find that my head sweats a lot, but it helps. The best solution is a curtain to block out the sun. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Is anyone else troubled by back-light scatter when using a modern > multi-layer auto-darkening helmet outdoors when the sun's behind you ? > A rear hood fashioned from a piece of dark material helps - but the > usual face-shield style helmets do not have any simple provision for > attaching this kind of rear light shield. Don't the manufacturers > anticipate such an obvious problem occuring - or is it just me and my > aging eyesight ? > Colin | 5886|5852|2004-10-19 19:29:46|Paul Cotter|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|Perhaps I have missed some conversations pertaining to steel masts, but have folks looked into tapered steel masts. I see a lot of tapered steel residential lighting poles. Assuming one could find appropriate wall thickness, seems like it might be an option. I’m off to the salvage yard shortly to look for such a thing as well as other bits. Comments? Paul -----Original Message----- From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@...] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:54 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains Gary: Fair enough! I won't argue with a guy who turns skelp for a living. Besides, at the wall thickness I mentioned(3.2mm), the force required to "ovalize" the tubing shouldn't be too much.Then again, I wouldn't worry about the pipe losing it's properties through pre- heating. I am no whiz at pipe, though. Can you tell me if there is a nickel-chromium steel alloy tubing available, or would this be a made-to-order situation? Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: "... I wouldn't worry at all about the weld seam breaking if you squished the > tube oval. I would however be concerned about annealing the tubing with the > heat and loosing the work hardening that it was produced with." To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5887|5880|2004-10-19 20:41:32|Ben Tucker|Re: back-light scatter|Hi My auto helmet seems ok with light behind me, what stuffs it up is reflections from the water, if there is a slight ripple and strong sun. good job I learnt with a normal helmet. Cheers Ben| 5888|5852|2004-10-19 21:51:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|Mike, I don't make tubing for a living. I'm a mechanical designer who has changed careers for the third time. I now design, build and install industrial waste treatment systems. That is how I am working in the tubing plant. However, since my first career was as an industrial electrician I have quite lot of experience bending pipe and tubing. I've also done a lot of work with lighting poles too. I used to install and repair them, after they were knocked down. We would often straighten bent ones, press out the dents with a hydraulic spreader on the inside, and even fabricate and weld on new bases. As to nickel chrome tubing, I haven't a clue. My brother still runs the electrical business. The biggest part of his business is installing and maintaining the 100 foot high tapered poles that are popular for sports lighting. I used to do that work too. I have a picture of myself standing on the top end of an 80 footer! Of course you can't see the safety belt around my waist attached to the cross arm below. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains > > > Gary: > Fair enough! I won't argue with a guy who turns skelp for a living. > Besides, at the wall thickness I mentioned(3.2mm), the force > required to "ovalize" the tubing shouldn't be too much.Then again, I > wouldn't worry about the pipe losing it's properties through pre- > heating. I am no whiz at pipe, though. Can you tell me if there is a > nickel-chromium steel alloy tubing available, or would this be a > made-to-order situation? > Regards, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > "... I wouldn't worry at all about the weld seam breaking if you > squished the > > tube oval. I would however be concerned about annealing the > tubing with the > > heat and loosing the work hardening that it was produced with." > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5889|5876|2004-10-20 01:17:25|Ben Tucker|Re: Standing rig|Hi Paul and Knut, The stuff down here is graded by its stength/sq mm. Mine is grade 2070 (Newtons/square millimeter) which is about the highest strength commonly in use I think. (see http://www.bullivants.com/products/productservicesguide/images/WireRop e.pdf ) This info should be on the test certificate plus the breaking strain, nominal and tested (10mm 7560kgs/7790kgs), steel composition, galvanising weights (mine is 90-96 g/sg.m seems good so far), and certifying bodies (ABS,DNV,LLoyds etc). Ask for a copy of the test certificate, otherwise it could be any old rubbish, and keep it for future referance. Mine Is 7x7 which seems better than any of the other common types, havent seen any 7x1 but will keep my eyes out for it now. My 7x7 is used for irrigation systems because it has good Galv. Cheers Ben Ben| 5890|5852|2004-10-20 04:00:52|denis buggy|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|dear all when i have to repair a propshaft wrung by some numbnuts i must use tubing from our local maker of tipping hydraulic rams as mild steel tubing would not last 10 seconds on the mad end of 450 bhp . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains Mike, I don't make tubing for a living. I'm a mechanical designer who has changed careers for the third time. I now design, build and install industrial waste treatment systems. That is how I am working in the tubing plant. However, since my first career was as an industrial electrician I have quite lot of experience bending pipe and tubing. I've also done a lot of work with lighting poles too. I used to install and repair them, after they were knocked down. We would often straighten bent ones, press out the dents with a hydraulic spreader on the inside, and even fabricate and weld on new bases. As to nickel chrome tubing, I haven't a clue. My brother still runs the electrical business. The biggest part of his business is installing and maintaining the 100 foot high tapered poles that are popular for sports lighting. I used to do that work too. I have a picture of myself standing on the top end of an 80 footer! Of course you can't see the safety belt around my waist attached to the cross arm below. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains > > > Gary: > Fair enough! I won't argue with a guy who turns skelp for a living. > Besides, at the wall thickness I mentioned(3.2mm), the force > required to "ovalize" the tubing shouldn't be too much.Then again, I > wouldn't worry about the pipe losing it's properties through pre- > heating. I am no whiz at pipe, though. Can you tell me if there is a > nickel-chromium steel alloy tubing available, or would this be a > made-to-order situation? > Regards, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > "... I wouldn't worry at all about the weld seam breaking if you > squished the > > tube oval. I would however be concerned about annealing the > tubing with the > > heat and loosing the work hardening that it was produced with." > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5891|5891|2004-10-20 07:41:02|dotujcispjyq|refinance, save hundreds per month|Re-finance now, even with bad-credit! *Free No Obligation *Best Re-finance Rate for credit challenged. *Best Customer Service *Lowest Interest-Rates in Years *SAVE $100-$400 per month Our easy application only takes a minute. http://grealus.com/azwh1 I posted this on origamiboats, if you dont want to be a member anymore just email origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com| 5892|5876|2004-10-20 12:18:49|knutfg|Re: Standing rig|Paul and Ben, thanks for the very helpful responses. From what I can find out, this is of course an important part of the boat and it MUST be the right stuff - and - it seems to be a murky field. At least it is necessary to be careful about spec's and guarantees. I am not quite sure what dimension (or failure load) that is actually recommended for the BS 36' but with 12000# failure load, this is about 70% of the weight of the boat. Sounds OK, but a confirmation would be good. Brent also writes that epoxy should be used for corrosion protection. I understand this to be a full-lenght epoxy coating of all standing rig wires. What kind of epoxy should be used for this? What about UV-protection (epoxy is generally NOT UV-resistant)? I would also assume that painting would have to be done after the mast is up (to avoid cracks in the coat due to bending of the wires during handling). Is the best application method using a narrow roller? Best wishes Knut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > > Hi Paul and Knut, > > The stuff down here is graded by its stength/sq mm. Mine is grade > 2070 (Newtons/square millimeter) which is about the highest strength > commonly in use I think. (see > http://www.bullivants.com/products/productservicesguide/images/WireRo p > e.pdf ) > > This info should be on the test certificate plus the breaking strain, > nominal and tested (10mm 7560kgs/7790kgs), steel composition, > galvanising weights (mine is 90-96 g/sg.m seems good so far), and > certifying bodies (ABS,DNV,LLoyds etc). Ask for a copy of the test > certificate, otherwise it could be any old rubbish, and keep it for > future referance. Mine Is 7x7 which seems better than any of the > other common types, havent seen any 7x1 but will keep my eyes out for > it now. My 7x7 is used for irrigation systems because it has good > Galv. > > Cheers > > Ben > Ben | 5893|5893|2004-10-20 16:24:40|Carl Di Stefano|TC 9-237 Table of Contents|No doubt many of you know of this site, but for those that don't it's a great welding textbook, and free! http://www.machinist.org/army_welding/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5894|5893|2004-10-20 17:38:13|Paul Cotter|Re: TC 9-237 Table of Contents|Thanks. I was just looking around town last night for a good manual….. -----Original Message----- From: Carl Di Stefano [mailto:shnarg@...] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 12:24 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] TC 9-237 Table of Contents No doubt many of you know of this site, but for those that don't it's a great welding textbook, and free! http://www.machinist.org/army_welding/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5895|5893|2004-10-20 17:44:53|Brent Geery|Re: TC 9-237 Table of Contents|On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:23:30 -0700, "Carl Di Stefano" wrote: > > No doubt many of you know of this site, but for those that don't it's a great welding textbook, and free! > > http://www.machinist.org/army_welding/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] PDF Version is at http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/query/download/TC+9-237 -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 5896|5876|2004-10-20 18:04:27|brentswain38|Re: Standing rig|Epoxy tar with a narrow roller works well . UV dammage is not as obvious as it is on a hull. I epoxy tarred my rig, wrapped it in hockey tape and eapoxy tarred it again, then put split black poly tubing over it. I feel it's probably good for my lifetime. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > Paul and Ben, thanks for the very helpful responses. From what I can > find out, this is of course an important part of the boat and it > MUST be the right stuff - and - it seems to be a murky field. At > least it is necessary to be careful about spec's and guarantees. > > I am not quite sure what dimension (or failure load) that is > actually recommended for the BS 36' but with 12000# failure load, > this is about 70% of the weight of the boat. Sounds OK, but a > confirmation would be good. > > Brent also writes that epoxy should be used for corrosion > protection. I understand this to be a full-lenght epoxy coating of > all standing rig wires. What kind of epoxy should be used for this? > What about UV-protection (epoxy is generally NOT UV-resistant)? I > would also assume that painting would have to be done after the mast > is up (to avoid cracks in the coat due to bending of the wires > during handling). Is the best application method using a narrow > roller? > > Best wishes > Knut > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > > > Hi Paul and Knut, > > > > The stuff down here is graded by its stength/sq mm. Mine is grade > > 2070 (Newtons/square millimeter) which is about the highest > strength > > commonly in use I think. (see > > > http://www.bullivants.com/products/productservicesguide/images/WireRo > p > > e.pdf ) > > > > This info should be on the test certificate plus the breaking > strain, > > nominal and tested (10mm 7560kgs/7790kgs), steel composition, > > galvanising weights (mine is 90-96 g/sg.m seems good so far), and > > certifying bodies (ABS,DNV,LLoyds etc). Ask for a copy of the test > > certificate, otherwise it could be any old rubbish, and keep it > for > > future referance. Mine Is 7x7 which seems better than any of the > > other common types, havent seen any 7x1 but will keep my eyes out > for > > it now. My 7x7 is used for irrigation systems because it has good > > Galv. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > Ben | 5897|5852|2004-10-20 18:07:03|brentswain38|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|One could experiment with smaller pipes to see how the weld effects the tubeing. The taper on a bermuda rig should only start 70% above the deck, so the weight savings are not all that much. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Perhaps I have missed some conversations pertaining to steel masts, but > have folks looked into tapered steel masts. I see a lot of tapered steel > residential lighting poles. Assuming one could find appropriate wall > thickness, seems like it might be an option. I'm off to the salvage yard > shortly to look for such a thing as well as other bits. > > Comments? > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:54 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains > > > Gary: > Fair enough! I won't argue with a guy who turns skelp for a living. > Besides, at the wall thickness I mentioned(3.2mm), the force > required to "ovalize" the tubing shouldn't be too much.Then again, I > wouldn't worry about the pipe losing it's properties through pre- > heating. I am no whiz at pipe, though. Can you tell me if there is a > nickel-chromium steel alloy tubing available, or would this be a > made-to-order situation? > Regards, > Mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > "... I wouldn't worry at all about the weld seam breaking if you > squished the > > tube oval. I would however be concerned about annealing the > tubing with the > > heat and loosing the work hardening that it was produced with." > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1098312843/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*h tt > p:/companion.yahoo.com> click here > > > s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=838897579> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5898|5876|2004-10-20 18:10:22|brentswain38|Re: Standing rig|I reccomend 5/16th for a 36. The high tensile has a spring to it when you try to bend it. The low tensile bends like lead. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Knut, > > I'm trying to track down some of the same information. Here are a few > morsels. > > I noticed all the guy wires for the utility poles where I live are 1 x 7 > (what Brent recommends) galvanized wire. I have a friend who works for > the utility company tracking down the specs for the wire they use. I > found a few local shops who supply utility companies, run electrical > cable, build commercial buildings, and/or build communications towers > sell it. Not all sell 1 X 7; most sell 7 X 19 and the like. Some sell > only in quantity; one guy wanted to sell me 5000 feet of wire (Hey > harbor, the new rigging is on me!). Anyway, your local utility company > may tell you who their supplier is. So far I have found ¼ inch (for a 26 > footer) for about $0.20/foot. > > I've been getting the run around on the high tensile strength > distinction. Not that I don't trust people, but I am never quite sure if > the folks in the shops I've talked to really can distinguish low and > high strength wire. I've heard a few classifications (like A grade) > thrown around, but I don't know if that is an industry standard. I'll > keep looking. > > Brent states in his book that 5/16 has breaking strength of around > 12,000#. Not sure if that is the diameter he recommends for a 36. > > That is about all I know. > > Cheers > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: knutfg [mailto:knutfg@y...] > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 3:20 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Standing rig > > > Hi, > > I don't recall if I read it in Brent's book or in a posting on this > forum, but the recommendation was for high tensile hot dip > galvanized steel wire for the standing rig. > > What I also seem to recall was a statement about epoxy coating in > this context. > > Specifically, can somebody enlighten me we the following information: > > - what is the actual specification for this type of wire for a Brent > Swain 36' boat? Type, diameter, failure load, yield load etc. > > - where can I by such wire (what kind of businesses are selling)? > > - what was the meaning of the "epoxy coating" statement? Coating all > the length of all the wires by epoxy, or was it just a matter of > sealing off the fittings at both ends? > > Greatful for all help. > Knut > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1098228030/A=2372354/R=0/SIG=12id813k2/*h tt > ps:/www.orchardbank.com/hcs/hcsapplication? pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F210 > 04SS> click here > > > s/S=:HM/A=2372354/rand=231685766> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5899|5874|2004-10-20 18:17:41|brentswain38|Re: Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|We use the gizmo on the bulwark cap for the jibsheet leads and the handrail for the staysail. Tracks or horses are not needed on a cruising boat as it's easy to use a line around the boom to the wheelhose top handrail, then to the lifelines, then to the midship chock to get a flat sail. This is also a lot quieter in light rolly conditions than a track or horse. I sailed my first boat to New Zealand with a mainsheet horse where I promptly threw it overboard and went for a couple of padeyes. The horse was incredibly noisy in light winds and swell. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Hi all, first sorry bout the double post glitch. > > I'm at the point where I'm trying to scope out my deck layout and in > reviewing the photos section, I don't seem to see any deck track for > any of the various sheet leads. What are you guys using for fairleads > and where are you putting them? The one REALLY nice item I saw was > that nifty homemade stainless snatchblock for the pipe toerail. If > whomever built that has any more detailed photos or 'words of wisdom' > for building them, I'd appreciate hearing that too. > > As for the main, is anyone using track? a length of bent pipe? or just > multipart tackle? > > Next, has anyone decided to go for a club on the staysail for self > tending? or worked out any other arrangement? > > Lastly, has everyone decided to stick with the sloop/cutter/double > headsail sloop rig? or has anyone decided to go with a divided rig? > > Thanks in advance for any comments or observations.:) > > seer > > FYI- I've been scoping out two possibilities on the 40'. First a > simplified schooner using the Wharram type of wrap-around soft > 'wingsail' which requires no mast track, hoops, lacing or other > nonsense and would present a pretty fair airfoil section on the round > aluminum pipe masts I envision, and second, a modern variation on the > staysail schooner employing brent's roller reefing gear on the main > staysail, the forestaysail and the jib making 'reefing' essentially a > non-issue. | 5900|5852|2004-10-20 18:19:30|brentswain38|Re: Steel Mast's 26-28ft Swains|The Aussie eighdeens use tapered stainless masts for serious racing.Have done for deecades . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > I have also given some thought to steel or wooden masts. I was > considering laying up a strip mast the same way a strip canoe is > built. In that way you can fiberglass the inside of the mast, slap > the two halves together and then fiberglass the outside. You might > even want to add some carbon fibers? > The steel mast I had in mind would also be built in halves and welded > together. I was considering forming 10´ lengths of higher strength > steel, offsetting the joints, zinc coating the inside and welding it > together. One weld joint could include a 1/2 inch ID stainless tube, > slotted for the sail guides. Either mast could be tapered to reduce > weight. > Gerald | 5901|5813|2004-10-20 18:21:39|brentswain38|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|A well built steel hull would make you totally immune to whale worries.Friends have collided with whales on the Galapagos to Marqueasas run. It was like hitting a pillow. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > The skipper of one of the boats hit by a whale wondered if the colour of the hull might have something to do with it. I do not know if any research has been done about shape and colour of a hull or material used. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RICHARD KOKEMOOR > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 8:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Colored Sail Longevity > > > seeratlas wrote > "Now that you bring that up, aside from the Essex, I always thought it > was extremely rare for a whale to draw a bead on a boat, but I'm not > so sure now. Seem to be a lot more reports of apparent attacks as > opposed to accidental 'bumpings'" > "Survive the Savage Sea" by Dougal Robertson is the story of survival of a family in a raft and dinghy for 37 days after their wooden schooner was attacked and summarily sunk by killer whales west of the Galapagos in 1972. > "Staying Alive!" (also published as "117 Days Adrift") by Maurice and Maralyn Bailey recounts the even longer ordeal of a couple whose plywood sloop was sunk by a sperm whale (they suspected it had been wounded by a whaler) east of the Galapagos in 1973. > Undoubtedly there have been other vessels attacked and sunk without survivors to tell the tale. How often it happens is pretty much a matter of conjecture. > A steel hull would surely offer more protection than one of other material. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5902|5813|2004-10-20 20:49:26|Carl Nostrand|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Gary, I sure wish that I was around 1000 years ago to have a reference for how the oceans were. In Alaska, we have well managed fisheries for the Halibut and black cod which is were I have most of my experience. Over all, I would say that we are in a dire need for international cooperation on creating ocean sanctuaries that can protect are ocean resources and do some serious year round long term study are habitat. The fisheries are over capitalized and fish-farming is not the answer but a bigger problem. Carl > > > I don't post much so perhaps hopefully this "post" will not offend > being not origami related (P.S... I am launching 36' BS in December) > You mentioned long lining for black cod. I read a New York Times > article a while back that 90% of the major food fish stocks of the > ocean are now gone. As a fisher do you feel this is at all accurate? > > Thanks > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand > wrote: >> Great story seer, thanks. >> >> I've had many encounters with Killer whales in Alaskan waters. We >> would go whaling other longliners for a few years. The killers > liked >> are black cod which was dragged up from 200-600 fathoms by hook > and >> line. A crew of 5-7 could bait and fish about 20,000 hooks a day. > Hooks >> every 36 inches, and to many miles of gear to haul and not enough > time. >> Well, the killers loved black cod, and could tell the good boats > from >> the bad boats by spy hopping, and the sound of are boat. Once the >> killers found us, we would just get heads and lips on are hooks, >> fishing was over. We would drop are gear back down in the deep > gray >> green sea and drive over to another fishing boat and hopefully > leave >> the whales there. >> >> We had a sea lion jump on deck once out in the bering sea, he was >> trying to hide from the killer whales. Right here drinking some > tea and >> reading the local paper at the end of the Homer spit in my car, I >> glanced up and saw about 60 pound king salmon completely jump 3-4 > feet >> out of the water with a Killer whale right on its tail...... > KILLERS >> FEEDING ON KINGS!!! >> >> HE -YA! >> >> Carl >> Homer Alaska >> >> This is one hell of a water planet that we all live with-in. >> >> >> On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:51 PM, seeratlas wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a > rough >>>> sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong > moonlight, >>>> which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. >>>> Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The > most >>>> pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, > makes >>>> the nights alot friendlyer. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Ben >>> >>> Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle > to Long >>> Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, > about 24 >>> hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest > swells >>> I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that > unless >>> I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I > heard >>> later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all > hands)..eventually >>> I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally > the >>> wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two >>> ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having > never >>> been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I > was >>> exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid > down in >>> the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours > later I >>> was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a > steam >>> engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I > crawled up >>> to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection > off >>> of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight > with a >>> whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat > which >>> was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough > of >>> him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have > been >>> 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently > enjoying the >>> evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional >>> tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and > beauty of >>> the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam >>> alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that > I'd >>> never known before. >>> >>> It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me > forever. >>> >>> seer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 5903|5880|2004-10-21 05:55:57|sae140|Re: back-light scatter|Sorry about using a pseudo-technical term - didn't know how else to describe this. For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, it's a similiar effect to when you drive against oncoming traffic at night in an old car - or even a newer car with a dirty windscreen. Old car windscreens have usually accumulated millions of micro scratches during their lives which in daylight are normally invisible, but oncoming headlights at night often cause 'light scatter' which can be blinding. And that's exactly what I'm finding with a multi-layer helmet - polycarbonate protective layers front and back (prone to scratching) plus a multi-layer auto-cartridge, plus a pair of specs(!) - it all adds up. It may appear to be a trivial issue, but if you can't see the weld-pool ..... Thanks for the replies - the solution is obviously to shield light from the rear - just thought I'd raise the topic as I've never heard anyone mention this problem before - even in welding manuals. Thanks for the replies, Colin| 5904|5904|2004-10-21 10:22:28|seeratlas|Auto Air Conditioning for boats?|I was poking around the junkyard the other day and began to wonder about this. Brent has already noted in a post here that a friend of his used a truck heating unit to good effect in a boat, And I began to wonder why the whole heating/AC unit couldn't be adapted from a car/truck to a boat? We're talking about the compressor which should be no big deal to bracket mount to the engine (and/or to a 110 v motor for dockside air), the evaporator, etc. which should be easy to remote mount somewhere it can get cooler air. The fans are all 12 volt, etc. sooooo... Has anyone come across any articles or know of someone who's done some work along this line? The only reason I bring this up is that I've been in the Sea of Cortez when it was SOOO hot it was almost impossible to move, and nearly impossible to sleep. The ability to knock the cabin temp down 10 or 15 degrees might be worth the effort. Drying the air would just be gravy. seer| 5905|5904|2004-10-21 10:37:59|Courtney Thomas|Re: Auto Air Conditioning for boats?|You might want to consider an RV rooftop unit in that they can be mounted w/o difficulty over a hatch and only cost about $500 new. HTH seeratlas wrote: > > I was poking around the junkyard the other day and began to wonder > about this. Brent has already noted in a post here that a friend of > his used a truck heating unit to good effect in a boat, And I began to > wonder why the whole heating/AC unit couldn't be adapted from a > car/truck to a boat? > > We're talking about the compressor which should be no big deal to > bracket mount to the engine (and/or to a 110 v motor for dockside > air), the evaporator, etc. which should be easy to remote mount > somewhere it can get cooler air. The fans are all 12 volt, etc. sooooo... > > Has anyone come across any articles or know of someone who's done some > work along this line? The only reason I bring this up is that I've > been in the Sea of Cortez when it was SOOO hot it was almost > impossible to move, and nearly impossible to sleep. The ability to > knock the cabin temp down 10 or 15 degrees might be worth the effort. > Drying the air would just be gravy. > > seer > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5906|5813|2004-10-21 10:51:55|Gary|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Thanks for that Carl... All is not lost yet but when you look at resources mustered for military ya gotta just shake your head. If a fraction of the billions spent on arms was diverted to patching up our blue planet maybe we could get some where. I was reading about the remote and beautiful Broughton Archepelago of BC which is currently suffering under an onslaught of sea lice attributed to open water fish farm pens. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand wrote: > Gary, > > I sure wish that I was around 1000 years ago to have a reference for > how the oceans were. In Alaska, we have well managed fisheries for the > Halibut and black cod which is were I have most of my experience. Over > all, I would say that we are in a dire need for international > cooperation on creating ocean sanctuaries that can protect are ocean > resources and do some serious year round long term study are habitat. > The fisheries are over capitalized and fish-farming is not the answer > but a bigger problem. > > Carl > > > > > > > I don't post much so perhaps hopefully this "post" will not offend > > being not origami related (P.S... I am launching 36' BS in December) > > You mentioned long lining for black cod. I read a New York Times > > article a while back that 90% of the major food fish stocks of the > > ocean are now gone. As a fisher do you feel this is at all accurate? > > > > Thanks > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand > > wrote: > >> Great story seer, thanks. > >> > >> I've had many encounters with Killer whales in Alaskan waters. We > >> would go whaling other longliners for a few years. The killers > > liked > >> are black cod which was dragged up from 200-600 fathoms by hook > > and > >> line. A crew of 5-7 could bait and fish about 20,000 hooks a day. > > Hooks > >> every 36 inches, and to many miles of gear to haul and not enough > > time. > >> Well, the killers loved black cod, and could tell the good boats > > from > >> the bad boats by spy hopping, and the sound of are boat. Once the > >> killers found us, we would just get heads and lips on are hooks, > >> fishing was over. We would drop are gear back down in the deep > > gray > >> green sea and drive over to another fishing boat and hopefully > > leave > >> the whales there. > >> > >> We had a sea lion jump on deck once out in the bering sea, he was > >> trying to hide from the killer whales. Right here drinking some > > tea and > >> reading the local paper at the end of the Homer spit in my car, I > >> glanced up and saw about 60 pound king salmon completely jump 3-4 > > feet > >> out of the water with a Killer whale right on its tail...... > > KILLERS > >> FEEDING ON KINGS!!! > >> > >> HE -YA! > >> > >> Carl > >> Homer Alaska > >> > >> This is one hell of a water planet that we all live with-in. > >> > >> > >> On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:51 PM, seeratlas wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > > > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The tanbark main on my folkboat stood out great in fog and a > > rough > >>>> sea, and showed up well at night, especailly in strong > > moonlight, > >>>> which alway worried me as Nav lights can be really hard to see. > >>>> Having white headsails was a good compromise, and cheaper. The > > most > >>>> pleasant offfshore trips have always been with good moonlight, > > makes > >>>> the nights alot friendlyer. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers > >>>> > >>>> Ben > >>> > >>> Sometime in the late 80's I was making a delivery from Seattle > > to Long > >>> Beach California. Despite the favorable forecast from NOAA, > > about 24 > >>> hours out, we got caught in a horrible storm with the biggest > > swells > >>> I've ever seen . For 4 days I ran like a rabbit thinking that > > unless > >>> I got extremely lucky, this would be "it" for me.(I believe I > > heard > >>> later they lost 10 boats in that storm, 3 with all > > hands)..eventually > >>> I ran off my charts way out into the North Pacific and finally > > the > >>> wind and waves began to settle down abit. Being one of only two > >>> ambulatory people on the boat (out of six), and the other having > > never > >>> been on a boat before in his life! (what an initiation LOL); I > > was > >>> exhausted and as the storm started to peter out, I just laid > > down in > >>> the floor of the center cockpit and collapsed. A few hours > > later I > >>> was awakend by a sound I've never heard before, almost like a > > steam > >>> engine puffing, accompanied by the most god awful smell. I > > crawled up > >>> to peek over the edge of the cockpit and there in the reflection > > off > >>> of near mirror like water, a patch of the brightest moonlight > > with a > >>> whale of fifty or sixty feet, just rolling alongside the boat > > which > >>> was doing probably 5 knots under autopilot. Couldn't see enough > > of > >>> him in the water to tell what kind he was, but he couldn't have > > been > >>> 20 feet from the boat, just swimming alongside apparently > > enjoying the > >>> evening and this strange fibreglass company. After the emotional > >>> tension of 4 days of life threatening weather, the calm and > > beauty of > >>> the moment was surreal and during the 45 minutes or so he swam > >>> alongside, I felt a 'oneness' with this world and this life that > > I'd > >>> never known before. > >>> > >>> It was one of the greatest moments of my life, and changed me > > forever. > >>> > >>> seer > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5907|5907|2004-10-21 12:26:06|fenixrises|Masts and rigging|Hi all, According to Skene's weight table: Spruce = 27lbs per cubic foot Port Orford Cedar = 30lbs per cubic foot Douglas Fir = 32lbs per cubic foot A typical mast section for a Swain 31' would be 6" x 4". If the mast is solid wood this is a convient number as it is 1/6 cubic foot per one linear foot hence a mast in: Spruce = 27 / 6 = 4.5lbs per linear foot Port Orford Cedar = 30 / 6 = 5lbs per linear foot Douglas Fir = 32 / 6 = 5.3lbs per linear foot A steel mast of similar dimensions 6" x 4" x 1/8" wall = 240 square inches per linear foot or 240 / 144 = 1.67 square feet per linear foot 1/8" Steel = 5.1lbs per square foot 5.1 x 1.67 = 8.5lbs per linear foot While it would be possible to slightly reduce the steel thickness it could not be much in order to retain workability. The resultant reduction in weight would be minimal. Allowing for the fact that an amature builder can more easily build a solid wood mast than a hollow wood mast even a solid wooden mast is far lighter than a steel tube mast in this size range. In smaller boats( under ~ 35') a mast of wood or aluminum would be an absolute necessity. In larger boats(40'+) steel tube vs. solid wood achieves parity. These days new steel is about $0.50USD(?) per lb, new aluminum about $3.50USD(?) per lb. For some reason aluminum mast manufacturers charge about $10USD per pound. While they do not all make their own extrusions the dies for their mast extrusions are proprietery. If money is not a problem aluminum masts are the lightest and strongest. In any material a keel stepped mast is the lightest and strongest. For an amature builder a keel stepped solid wood mast in a boat under about 35 feet may be the best compromise. In a bigger boat the possibility of using a steel tube becomes viable. In the case of a rigging failure a solid wood deck stepped mask might stand long enough to make a quick jury rig repair. In similar circumstances any tubular or deck stepped mast would be lost. Port Orford Cedar or Douglas Fir utility poles(telephone or electric poles) are readily available in the US and Canada and are not expensive. Although I haven't checked prices lately I think a pole of suitable dimensions could be had for about $400 USD. The pole should be bought at the begining of the project thereby allowing additional time for it to dry before use. Proper treatment of the wood is required for longevity however it need not be varnished. Below are two links. A web search will show many more. Here is a link for a pole company in Ontario, Canada. http://www.guelphpole.com/ Here is a link for a company that sells wire rope and fittings in Burbank, Ca. USA http://versales.com/index.htm Generally for Brent's boats wire size I would say: 26' 3/16" adequate 1/4" bulletproof 31' 1/4" adequate 5/16" bulletproof 36' 1/4" probably adequate 5/16" bulletproof 40" 5/16" adequate 3/8" bulletproof In galvanized high tensile wire 1X7 wire is stronger and more stretch resistant 7X7 is easier to work with If properly sized either is a good choice For the price of one SS backstay and two Norseman type fittings you should be able to purchase a 500 foot reel of comparable size galvanized wire. Remember Bernard Moitessier sailed Joshua for 1,000's of miles in incredibly severe conditions without a rigging failure using utility pole masts and galvanized rigging. He stepped his masts on the keel. In previous posts the "deck step" vs. "keel step" mast debate was covered extensivly. On a steel boat it is easy to step the mast either way. Keel stepped masts are stronger and can be lighter. Deck stepped masts do not intrude on the interior and if tabernacled easier to maintain. With proper design and modern materials leaks at the mast collar are not a problem. Take care, Fred| 5908|5907|2004-10-21 14:16:09|brentswain38|Re: Masts and rigging|Keel steped masts have their own problems. Leaks at the decks are a recurring problem and they eat up a lot of interior space, which is in short enough supply in smaller boats.. The slight saving in weight wouldn't be noticable. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > According to Skene's weight table: > > Spruce = 27lbs per cubic foot > Port Orford Cedar = 30lbs per cubic foot > Douglas Fir = 32lbs per cubic foot > > A typical mast section for a Swain 31' would be 6" x 4". If the mast > is solid wood this is a convient number as it is 1/6 cubic foot per > one linear foot > hence a mast in: > Spruce = 27 / 6 = 4.5lbs per linear foot > Port Orford Cedar = 30 / 6 = 5lbs per linear foot > Douglas Fir = 32 / 6 = 5.3lbs per linear foot > > A steel mast of similar dimensions 6" x 4" x 1/8" wall = 240 square > inches per linear foot or 240 / 144 = 1.67 square feet per linear foot > 1/8" Steel = 5.1lbs per square foot > 5.1 x 1.67 = 8.5lbs per linear foot > > While it would be possible to slightly reduce the steel thickness > it could not be much in order to retain workability. The resultant > reduction in weight would be minimal. > > Allowing for the fact that an amature builder can more easily build > a solid wood mast than a hollow wood mast even a solid wooden mast > is far lighter than a steel tube mast in this size range. > In smaller boats( under ~ 35') a mast of wood or aluminum > would be an absolute necessity. > In larger boats(40'+) steel tube vs. solid wood achieves parity. > > These days new steel is about $0.50USD(?) per lb, new aluminum about > $3.50USD(?) per lb. For some reason aluminum mast manufacturers > charge about $10USD per pound. While they do not all make their own > extrusions the dies for their mast extrusions are proprietery. > > If money is not a problem aluminum masts are the lightest and > strongest. > In any material a keel stepped mast is the lightest and strongest. > For an amature builder a keel stepped solid wood mast in a boat under > about 35 feet may be the best compromise. In a bigger boat the > possibility of using a steel tube becomes viable. In the case of a > rigging failure a solid wood deck stepped mask might stand long > enough to make a quick jury rig repair. In similar circumstances any > tubular or deck stepped mast would be lost. > > Port Orford Cedar or Douglas Fir utility poles(telephone or electric > poles) are readily available in the US and Canada and are not > expensive. Although I haven't checked prices lately I think a pole of > suitable dimensions could be had for about $400 USD. The pole should > be bought at the begining of the project thereby allowing additional > time for it to dry before use. Proper treatment of the wood is > required for longevity however it need not be varnished. > > Below are two links. A web search will show many more. > > Here is a link for a pole company in Ontario, Canada. > > http://www.guelphpole.com/ > > Here is a link for a company that sells wire rope and fittings in > Burbank, Ca. USA > > http://versales.com/index.htm > > Generally for Brent's boats wire size I would say: > > 26' 3/16" adequate 1/4" bulletproof > 31' 1/4" adequate 5/16" bulletproof > 36' 1/4" probably adequate 5/16" bulletproof > 40" 5/16" adequate 3/8" bulletproof > > In galvanized high tensile wire > 1X7 wire is stronger and more stretch resistant > 7X7 is easier to work with > If properly sized either is a good choice > > For the price of one SS backstay and two Norseman type fittings > you should be able to purchase a 500 foot reel of comparable size > galvanized wire. > > Remember Bernard Moitessier sailed Joshua for 1,000's of miles in > incredibly severe conditions without a rigging failure using utility > pole masts and galvanized rigging. He stepped his masts on the keel. > In previous posts the "deck step" vs. "keel step" mast debate was > covered extensivly. On a steel boat it is easy to step the mast > either way. Keel stepped masts are stronger and can be lighter. > Deck stepped masts do not intrude on the interior and if tabernacled > easier to maintain. With proper design and modern materials leaks at > the mast collar are not a problem. > > Take care, > Fred | 5909|5907|2004-10-21 14:22:40|fenixrises|Re: Masts and rigging...editorial corrections|The words in quotes are changed from original post In the case of a rigging failure a solid wood "keel" stepped mask might stand long enough to make a quick jury rig repair. In similar circumstances any tubular or deck stepped mast would be lost. "Western Red Cedar" or Douglas Fir utility poles(telephone or electric poles) are readily available in the US and Canada and are not expensive.| 5910|5872|2004-10-21 14:52:16|fenixrises|Re: windlass/winch|Hi all, Another possibility to this costly problem. While a hydrolic system is strong and relativly trouble free it can be expensive. Used pumps and slave motors are available but in the small sizes for this application it maybe better using new. Then there is the need for high pressure lines and a control valve plus fittings. All costly. One alternative I have thought about is using compressed air. Small engine driven air compressors are inexpensive and with the proper equipment can do double duty for a hooka(sort of like scuba) setup. My idea is to use a heavy duty air wrench to drive the windlass spool through a chain and sprocket reduction. Use the air wrench in place of the hydrolic slave motor. An added advantage is the ability to easily remove the air wrench and stow it below. Since the pressures involved here are much less than with hydrolic fluid, fittings and lines are cheaper and available almost everywhere. A main line from engine area to foredeck area could effectivly be 3/4" pipe, no return line is needed. Heavy duty air wrenches are readily available from discount tool suppliers for about $150 USD, from garage sales much less. And you can even use it in its designed capacity, as an air wrench. A 7 cubic foot per minute, 120 lb per square inch compressor is about $200 USD, again used may be much cheaper. A used 5gal propane tank would make a suitable air vessel and would be portable, not sure if this is "legal". Take care, Fred "Bill Jaine" wrote: > In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. > > > > Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't use a vehicle recovery winch with > wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. > > > > I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor (Bruce 33, > 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1" nylon). > > > > The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian ($300 > US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable and remote > switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of > vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn't it? > > > > I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the anchor > roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach that to > the anchor and have an anchoring system that's reasonably efficient in day > to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about kills me > these days! > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5911|5907|2004-10-21 15:12:28|Gerd|Re: Masts and rigging|Fred, you should have a look at Dudley Dix's article on that, at http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm If I understand you right you compare the same diameter in steel and wood - Dix compares wood/steel and alloy but based on resistance, not just dameter. The result is quite surprising: only alloy could be significantly lighter and that also only under condition that the profile is bigger. The boat he takes for example is the Houte Bay 30, so that would be quite close. Gerd the Yago Project at Http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5912|5872|2004-10-21 15:40:28|denis buggy|Re: windlass/winch|dear Fred take care you should not use a propane cyl for this purpose it cannot be drained nor does it have a inspection hatch . if you must , rig up some clutched drive from a pulley to a old but well made compressor , ingersoll rand or similar with the old 6 mm thick tank not the new Italian 3mm tank. you can test an entire tanks thickness/condition with a little electric gadget in 30 seconds as do insurance engineers here . you will not drive a 3.5 horse single phase motor on your boat and to generate enough energy to build air in a 300 litre tank to run a inch drive gun for a few minutes will need a lot more than 7 cfm per minute and will need to be oiled by an oiler at sea as on land , an impact wrench is not an air motor however similar and will not deliver you power" now " when you may need it will seem a etiternity has passed before you will be ready to make noise and rattle a chain in mad bursts however hydraulics are the chosen means by which most of the world pulls rope at sea for a lot of good reasons regards denims ----- Original Message ----- From: fenixrises To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 7:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: windlass/winch Hi all, Another possibility to this costly problem. While a hydrolic system is strong and relativly trouble free it can be expensive. Used pumps and slave motors are available but in the small sizes for this application it maybe better using new. Then there is the need for high pressure lines and a control valve plus fittings. All costly. One alternative I have thought about is using compressed air. Small engine driven air compressors are inexpensive and with the proper equipment can do double duty for a hooka(sort of like scuba) setup. My idea is to use a heavy duty air wrench to drive the windlass spool through a chain and sprocket reduction. Use the air wrench in place of the hydrolic slave motor. An added advantage is the ability to easily remove the air wrench and stow it below. Since the pressures involved here are much less than with hydrolic fluid, fittings and lines are cheaper and available almost everywhere. A main line from engine area to foredeck area could effectivly be 3/4" pipe, no return line is needed. Heavy duty air wrenches are readily available from discount tool suppliers for about $150 USD, from garage sales much less. And you can even use it in its designed capacity, as an air wrench. A 7 cubic foot per minute, 120 lb per square inch compressor is about $200 USD, again used may be much cheaper. A used 5gal propane tank would make a suitable air vessel and would be portable, not sure if this is "legal". Take care, Fred "Bill Jaine" wrote: > In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. > > > > Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't use a vehicle recovery winch with > wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. > > > > I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor (Bruce 33, > 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1" nylon). > > > > The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian ($300 > US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable and remote > switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of > vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn't it? > > > > I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the anchor > roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach that to > the anchor and have an anchoring system that's reasonably efficient in day > to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about kills me > these days! > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5913|5872|2004-10-21 16:29:26|seeratlas|Re: windlass/winch/ pneumatic compressor|From what I saw at the wreckers, some darned stout powersteering pumps off of commercial trucks were less than 50.00. US. The rebuild kits from auto parts stores were trivial. That would leave the motor and the hoses. Makes sense to me to go with braided hoses, and even that was not expensive. In the end, it seems a system could be cleaned up and patched together that would get you 10 to 15 years of intermittent use (think of the hours a big rig truck power steering unit runs up before cashing in). Most cost effective Repair is probably a matter of just swapping in a new salvaged pump. I can't see anything other than corrosion being a problem for the motor assuming the system is put together cleanly and with high quality fluid. It also gives you the opportunity to pick up some used (or make) some hydraulic/manual halyard reel or sheet winches, or salvaged hydraulic capstan winches for little things like pulling up full crab pots should your tastes go that direction. For my application on a heavy 40 footer, should I become partially disabled , it would make things a lot easier on a smallish person of the female persuasion:) Regarding the air compressor tho...I did see an article where a guy said you could take one of the new "oil-less' 110v tank compressors (sold at Home Depot/Tractor Supply/Lowe's etc.; and rig up a 40ft. Hookah rig for casual diving and bottom maintenance/inspection. I'd have to scope out the quality of the air produced, but that might be an interesting 'toy' on a larger boat and would let you run all the air tools you want including a spray gun for bottom painting, all assuming manual oiling of the tools) as well as play on the reefs down to 30 feet or so. I think I'd want some kind of remote air intake and would assure myself of air quality before I went to far, but its an interesting idea. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Fred take care you should not use a propane cyl for this purpose it cannot be drained nor does it have a inspection hatch . if you must , rig up some clutched drive from a pulley to a old but well made compressor , ingersoll rand or similar with the old 6 mm thick tank not the new Italian 3mm tank. you can test an entire tanks thickness/condition with a little electric gadget in 30 seconds as do insurance engineers here . > you will not drive a 3.5 horse single phase motor on your boat and to generate enough energy to build air in a 300 litre tank to run a inch drive gun for a few minutes will need a lot more than 7 cfm per minute and will need to be oiled by an oiler at sea as on land , an impact wrench is not an air motor however similar and will not deliver you power" now " when you may need it will seem a etiternity has passed before you will be ready to make noise and rattle a chain in mad bursts however hydraulics are the chosen means by which most of the world pulls rope at sea for a lot of good reasons regards denims ----- Original Message ----- > | 5914|5872|2004-10-21 17:05:49|fenixrises|Re: windlass/winch/ pneumatic compressor|Hi seer, When I lived in SoCal most all the guys who cleaned boat bottoms as a regular service used the small "oil-less" compressors set up with a hooka rig. Never heard of any problems, though I am sure they used a specific type of filter for the air. I do not think you would get sufficient air volume for spraying paint or using some rotary type tools. In the construction industry these small compressors are used a lot, mostly for low volume high pressure tools like nail and staple guns. Fred "seeratlas" wrote: > Regarding the air compressor tho...I did see an article where a guy > said you could take one of the new "oil-less' 110v tank compressors > (sold at Home Depot/Tractor Supply/Lowe's etc.; and rig up a 40ft. > Hookah rig for casual diving and bottom maintenance/inspection. I'd > have to scope out the quality of the air produced, but that might be > an interesting 'toy' on a larger boat and would let you run all the > air tools you want including a spray gun for bottom painting, all > assuming manual oiling of the tools) as well as play on the reefs down > to 30 feet or so. I think I'd want some kind of remote air intake and > would assure myself of air quality before I went to far, but its an > interesting idea. > > seer | 5915|5872|2004-10-21 17:42:09|fenixrises|Re: windlass/winch|Hi Dennis, I did say: "A used 5gal propane tank would make a suitable air vessel and would be portable, not sure if this is "legal"." So if you do this and blow yourself up do not blame me, OK! I do know that it is possible to buy, from automotive parts houses, small portable air tanks that look exactly like 5 gal propane cylinders. From memeory when these propane cylinders are filled with liquid propane the internal pressure at room temperature is about 350PSI and they are rated to safely hold a full load of propane at higher than room ambient temperature. While quite possibly it would be unwise for reasons of which I am unaware to use a propane tank I think it is capable of holding 120PSI of compressed air. This should not exceed the capacity of the tank. Caveat Emptore. If you are worried about mixing the propane in a used tank with compressed air then a new tank should be purchased. New tanks are cheap enough. For the whole set up buying a used compressor and tank might make better sense, if you have room for the typical 20-30 gal tank. I would not use an electric motor to run the air compressor. I would use the main engine. A 20HP diesel engine could easily run a 7CFM compressor. In turn that compressor will supply a 1/2" drive air wrench which typically requires about 5CFM. I wasn't thinking about using a 1" drive air wrench. That's a monster wrench and quite expensive. I haven't tested this idea so do not know if it is viable. I own and have used a 1/2" air wrench. They develop a lot of torque. Ever have to remove lug nuts on a car wheel with one of those stock tire wrenches? By using a 5:1 reduction through chain and sprockets similar to what would be done with a hydrolic slave motor I think it might work. Would this system absolutely be cheaper, easier, safer or better to put together than a hydrolic system? I do not know. Like many things it depends on the individual. Take care, Fred "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Fred take care you should not use a propane cyl for this purpose it cannot be drained nor does it have a inspection hatch . if you must , rig up some clutched drive from a pulley to a old but well made compressor , ingersoll rand or similar with the old 6 mm thick tank not the new Italian 3mm tank. you can test an entire tanks thickness/condition with a little electric gadget in 30 seconds as do insurance engineers here . > you will not drive a 3.5 horse single phase motor on your boat and to generate enough energy to build air in a 300 litre tank to run a inch drive gun for a few minutes will need a lot more than 7 cfm per minute and will need to be oiled by an oiler at sea as on land , an impact wrench is not an air motor however similar and will not deliver you power" now " when you may need it will seem a etiternity has passed before you will be ready to make noise and rattle a chain in mad bursts however hydraulics are the chosen means by which most of the world pulls rope at sea for a lot of good reasons regards denims ----- Original Message ----- > From: fenixrises > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 7:51 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: windlass/winch > > > > Hi all, > > Another possibility to this costly problem. > While a hydrolic system is strong and relativly trouble free it can > be expensive. Used pumps and slave motors are available but in the > small sizes for this application it maybe better using new. Then > there is the need for high pressure lines and a control valve plus > fittings. All costly. > > One alternative I have thought about is using compressed air. Small > engine driven air compressors are inexpensive and with the proper > equipment can do double duty for a hooka(sort of like scuba) setup. > My idea is to use a heavy duty air wrench to drive the windlass spool > through a chain and sprocket reduction. Use the air wrench in place > of the hydrolic slave motor. An added advantage is the ability to > easily remove the air wrench and stow it below. Since the pressures > involved here are much less than with hydrolic fluid, fittings and > lines are cheaper and available almost everywhere. A main line from > engine area to foredeck area could effectivly be 3/4" pipe, no return > line is needed. Heavy duty air wrenches are readily available from > discount tool suppliers for about $150 USD, from garage sales much > less. And you can even use it in its designed capacity, as an air > wrench. A 7 cubic foot per minute, 120 lb per square inch compressor > is about $200 USD, again used may be much cheaper. A used 5gal > propane tank would make a suitable air vessel and would be portable, > not sure if this is "legal". > > Take care, > Fred > > > "Bill Jaine" wrote: > > In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. > > > > > > > > Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't use a vehicle recovery > winch with > > wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. > > > > > > > > I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor > (Bruce 33, > > 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1" nylon). > > > > > > > > The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian > ($300 > > US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable > and remote > > switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of > > vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn't it? > > > > > > > > I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the > anchor > > roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach > that to > > the anchor and have an anchoring system that's reasonably efficient > in day > > to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about > kills me > > these days! > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5916|5872|2004-10-21 18:23:05|tbmfoto@aol.com|Re: windlass/winch|I think everybody is forgetting just how an "air wrench" really works. There is a reason they call them "impact wrenches." Think of it, a 1/2 in. impact will deliver 600ftlb of torque with your hand inches from the center of effort. They pound and pound on a tight nut till it breaks free then rapidly spin it the rest of the way off. I tried to start a cranky lawn mower with one once, it would not turn it even one revolution even though I could pull it through easily by hand. Each blow of the hammer in the wrench would move the crank just a bit then the compression in the cylinder would push it back just as far. I would guess the weight of the anchor and chain would have the same effect. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5917|5872|2004-10-21 19:22:29|seeratlas|Re: windlass/winch/ pneumatic compressor|-Fred, The one this guy recommended specifically was the pancake "Porter Cable" model you see all over the discount housing products places. I'll have to check out the specs but I'm thinking they were around 2.7 cfm @100 psi. I can run power tools off that intermittently, but you're right, nothing beats 7cfm :)heheh seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi seer, > > When I lived in SoCal most all the guys who cleaned boat bottoms as a > regular service used the small "oil-less" compressors set up with a > hooka rig. > Never heard of any problems, though I am sure they used a specific > type of filter for the air. > > I do not think you would get sufficient air volume for spraying paint > or using some rotary type tools. In the construction industry these > small compressors are used a lot, mostly for low volume high pressure > tools like nail and staple guns. > > Fred > > "seeratlas" wrote: > > Regarding the air compressor tho...I did see an article where a guy > > said you could take one of the new "oil-less' 110v tank compressors > > (sold at Home Depot/Tractor Supply/Lowe's etc.; and rig up a 40ft. > > Hookah rig for casual diving and bottom maintenance/inspection. I'd > > have to scope out the quality of the air produced, but that might be > > an interesting 'toy' on a larger boat and would let you run all the > > air tools you want including a spray gun for bottom painting, all > > assuming manual oiling of the tools) as well as play on the reefs > down > > to 30 feet or so. I think I'd want some kind of remote air intake > and > > would assure myself of air quality before I went to far, but its an > > interesting idea. > > > > seer | 5918|5918|2004-10-21 19:33:44|seeratlas|Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|Well, my luck is going pretty well. Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, everything is 'swap' LOL. Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? thanx in advance. seer| 5919|5813|2004-10-21 20:05:03|jim dorey|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:24:14 -0800, Carl Nostrand wrote: > Gary, > > I sure wish that I was around 1000 years ago to have a reference for > how the oceans were. In Alaska, we have well managed fisheries for the > Halibut and black cod which is were I have most of my experience. Over > all, I would say that we are in a dire need for international > cooperation on creating ocean sanctuaries that can protect are ocean > resources and do some serious year round long term study are habitat. > The fisheries are over capitalized and fish-farming is not the answer > but a bigger problem. > > Carl round here the biggest problem is international floating factories dragging the bottom and using huge nets in the spawning ground, if they fished every part of the ocean but the spawning grounds empty there'd be fish back in force by the next year. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5920|5918|2004-10-21 20:28:17|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|Get over it, that's the way it works... ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs Well, my luck is going pretty well. Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, everything is 'swap' LOL. Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? thanx in advance. seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5921|5918|2004-10-21 20:34:10|jim dorey|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:33:35 -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > thanx in advance. > > seer there's probably an adapter that will allow you to connect the hoses to the big tanks. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5922|5918|2004-10-21 20:55:43|seeratlas|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|Welll...I'd rather take a shot at beating the "system". :) Especially since it costs almost as much to get those little bitty tanks swapped as the big ones! I think I'd rather rent some big ones and tap off them into the little portable ones, which would bring the refill cost down to about 1/3, maybe better. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" wrote: > Get over it, that's the way it works... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:33 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > Well, my luck is going pretty well. > Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those > 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. > > Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can > play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand > new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is > std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, > everything is 'swap' LOL. > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > thanx in advance. > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5923|5918|2004-10-21 21:16:40|Graeme|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|Do not even think about it ...............i like my skin it stops me from bleeding all over the place. With oxy acetylene that is what happens you never own the bottles they are rental......you just change them over empty for full...............for a fee of course. On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:33:35 -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > thanx in advance. > > seer there's probably an adapter that will allow you to connect the hoses to the big tanks. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5924|5924|2004-10-21 21:47:00|DVDFan|Adult DVDs in all categories at lowest prices on the net!?|This website is so fantastic, I just have to share it with you! They have insane prices and an equally insane selection of DVDs! I just bought a whole bunch and my neighboors will never find out because they are also extremely discreet! PS: DO NOT ACCESS THIS SITE OR ITS SERVICE IF YOU ARE A MINOR! http://www.epiccash.com/track/track.php?PID=D&SID4&UID=WOHOH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5925|5918|2004-10-21 22:01:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|DO NOT even think about refilling acetylene tanks! I used to have a partner who also owned an industrial gas business. Acetylene is not stored as a gas in the bottle. The bottle has a wick in it, like a magic marker pen. The wick is saturated in acetone, in which the acetylene dissolves, like CO2 in Coca Cola. Refilling acetylene bottles is a VERY risky business if you don't have absolutely the right conditions. It is a very unstable molecule when not dissolved in Acetone and can explode without any oxygen being present. The acetone in the bottle is why you should never lay an acetylene tank on it's side when using it, you lose some of the acetone that way. Refilling a bottle that has lost to much acetone turns the bottle into a bomb. The SIZE of your acetylene bottle determines the size of the tip you can run. The bottle must have enough volume so that the acetylene can come out of solution without fizzing the acetone. If your torch keeps popping and back firing the acetylene bottle is too small for the tip being used. Tanks are dated. They have to be hydro-tested every couple of years, used or not. I built a hydro-test rig for my partner. Once your tanks reach their hydro-test date no one will fill them unless you pay for the testing. If they fail you lose them. So when you swap tanks you are essentially contributing your bottles to the revolving pool and your rental covers the eventual hydro-test and replacement as well as the gas used. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > Welll...I'd rather take a shot at beating the "system". :) Especially > since it costs almost as much to get those little bitty tanks swapped > as the big ones! I think I'd rather rent some big ones and tap off > them into the little portable ones, which would bring the refill cost > down to about 1/3, maybe better. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" > wrote: > > Get over it, that's the way it works... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:33 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > > > > > Well, my luck is going pretty well. > > Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those > > 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. > > > > Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can > > play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand > > new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is > > std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, > > everything is 'swap' LOL. > > > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > > > thanx in advance. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5926|5926|2004-10-21 22:05:41|knutfg|Windlass power|Hi, there are a few things about compressed air systems that make me very doubtful about using compressed air for operation of an anchor windlass. The energy efficiency is very low, so I think it is out of the question to pull in a 300 to 400' anchor rode without running the diesel engine. If you do, then you could operate a serious compressor and it should be possible to do the job. However, this big and expensive compressor would need space and it would have to be mounted close to the engine. The system would need a good size air buffertank where condensation from the air could be drained off. Otherwise, the air motor running the windlass could freeze to a halt. The airmotor would have to be an air-vane motor (due to size and cost) and that would require a reduction gear for correct windlass RPM and sufficient torque. The airmotor would need oil lubrication that feeds into the airstream and there is always some spill of oil from the exhaust air. Such a motor is very noisy at a high and penetrating pitch. You would NOT be popular in a crowded anchorage being the first to weigh anchor before dawn. And, I would like to have the option of operating the windlass without running the diesel. Personally, I would definately stay with the hydraulic solution, not to say that there are no other ways. Only food for thought. Knut| 5927|5927|2004-10-21 22:06:18|fenixrises|Building space available?|Hi all, This is an old post: From: "misterinbetween2002" Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:32 am Subject: A safe, secure, inexpensive site to build your boat Anyone contemplating building a boat but lacking their own site. I offer outdoor space with ample electricity on a farm in the mid vancouver island area. Currently three Swain 36 footers are on site in varying stages of completion. Rent is $100 per month for the duration of your project. Living accomodation is occasionally available on the farm and also exists in the surrounding area. For info email me at kvanwest@s... Yahoo of course did its usual snip off the e-mail addy. Any idea who this is and if he is still willing? Fred| 5928|5918|2004-10-21 22:31:29|carlmbentley|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|hey gang, just thought i'd mention to those of you on a tight budget. i have been using oxy/propane instead of oxy/acetylene. works fine and is cheaper. sorry can't compare it to oxy/acetylene, i've never used it. -carl building 36 swain in florida| 5929|5918|2004-10-21 22:49:20|seeratlas|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|:) Reminds me of what my manager type father used to tell me... "Nothing is as good as professional advice...especially if you follow it :)" Thanks for the heads up before I blew my head 'off' :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > DO NOT even think about refilling acetylene tanks! I used to have a partner > who also owned an industrial gas business. Acetylene is not stored as a gas > in the bottle. The bottle has a wick in it, like a magic marker pen. The > wick is saturated in acetone, in which the acetylene dissolves, like CO2 in > Coca Cola. Refilling acetylene bottles is a VERY risky business if you > don't have absolutely the right conditions. It is a very unstable molecule > when not dissolved in Acetone and can explode without any oxygen being > present. > > The acetone in the bottle is why you should never lay an acetylene tank on > it's side when using it, you lose some of the acetone that way. Refilling a > bottle that has lost to much acetone turns the bottle into a bomb. The SIZE > of your acetylene bottle determines the size of the tip you can run. The > bottle must have enough volume so that the acetylene can come out of > solution without fizzing the acetone. If your torch keeps popping and back > firing the acetylene bottle is too small for the tip being used. > > Tanks are dated. They have to be hydro-tested every couple of years, used or > not. I built a hydro-test rig for my partner. Once your tanks reach their > hydro-test date no one will fill them unless you pay for the testing. If > they fail you lose them. So when you swap tanks you are essentially > contributing your bottles to the revolving pool and your rental covers the > eventual hydro-test and replacement as well as the gas used. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:54 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > > > > > Welll...I'd rather take a shot at beating the "system". :) Especially > > since it costs almost as much to get those little bitty tanks swapped > > as the big ones! I think I'd rather rent some big ones and tap off > > them into the little portable ones, which would bring the refill cost > > down to about 1/3, maybe better. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" > > wrote: > > > Get over it, that's the way it works... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:33 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, my luck is going pretty well. > > > Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those > > > 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. > > > > > > Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can > > > play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand > > > new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is > > > std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, > > > everything is 'swap' LOL. > > > > > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > > > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > > > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > > > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > > > > > thanx in advance. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5930|5907|2004-10-21 22:56:03|Ben Tucker|Re: Masts and rigging|Hi How about a box section hollow wood mast, they are very close to alloy in weight for strength and should be pretty easy to make, plus they look good . Modern glues make them strong and durable, and its easy to make fittings for them. Make sure you stuff some crumpled tin foil in them as a radar reflector, some theorys say the mast attenuates the signal to much but it seems to work very well on NZ maid's masts, I have seen her on radar as two blips, one for each mast. For a gaff you have lots more options than for the bermudian rig, where light weight and compression strength is vital due to it's height and loadings. Dudleys Figures seem to apply more for the gaff rig. Solid wood masts need to be reasonably good quality, and well soaked in linseed and kero or simmilar. My parents first masts rotted out and we were always patching up big rot sections in Soren Larsen's masts and yards (athough they were 25 years old) due to water getting in the shakes and rotting out the heart (always was worst where it was painted and puttyed at the doublings). Mottesier used solid wood telegraph poles but they were treated with something nasty, I thought he used 7x19 Stainless for his rigging? With regard to the old deck vs keel steped arguement I have often wondered why the deck struts seen on the hunters have not been more popular, they reduce the panel length in the lower section, take all the boom and pole loadings off the mast, and give good "end fixity" to the lower section in effect giving the mast back the strength lost due to deck stepping it (also help spread the mast load). Many modern fractional rigs have gooseneck check stays and prebend to do a similar thing, relying on the mast not inverting to keep them in tension. I plan to fit some to my rig as an experiment. Matt Layden even used them to support an unstayed rig on his little cruiser see http://www.microcruising.com/more1.htm Hunters at http://www.boats.com/boat-articles/Sail+Rigging-146/The+B&% 3BR+Rig/10178.html and B&R rig Haflway down at http://www.sailnet.com/sailing/97/bobjul97.htm Cheers Ben| 5931|5926|2004-10-21 23:26:20|Ben Tucker|Re: Windlass power|Hi A few harebrained thoughts from downunder. A friend used two AC electric motors, one belted of his Main engine, and conected by heavy 240v cable to his underdeck shaft of his windlass. The two were syncronised due to the AC cycles, to speed up the windlass he just revved up the main engine. The motor on the windlass can have a differnt set of windings to "gear" it down to a reasonable speed. The motors were junk washing machine types or simmilar. He was an electrican. I have wondered if it was possible to run a windlass from a high volume saltwater pump. The discharge washes the anchor cable and deck, and the high volume pump becomes an emergency bilge pump? I saw a slipway in NZ powered by a peltin wheel and water from a tarn up the hill. Can a windlass be run of foot pedal power rather than hand power, much more efficent, and you could sit on the coachhouse and pedal away!! this concept would be neat for sheet winches, and anchor warps giving you both hands to tail the rope with! I have seen a few windlasses using old car and motorcycle gearboxes. Change to 1st gear to break it out then 5th to wind it home,(or would it be the other way round?) keep the clutch to drop anchor! For small boats you can't beat a chain pawl over the roller. Up to 5/16 chain and 35lb anchors it seems to work fine, 3/8 and 45lb is getting abit harder on the back . Add a second pawl 1 foot up a 4 foot pivoting tube and you have a good lever for breaking out the anchor, or just take a chain claw on a bit of rope up to a halyard winch. At the college we have a compressed air winch for lifting the fast rescue boat. It takes heaps of air to work, a big diesel compresser ashore only just keeps up. Cheers Ben| 5932|5918|2004-10-22 02:39:05|Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|Hello, Carl, are you using the Oxy/propane just for cutting or for welding too? Haven't seen a lot of info on this, any info. /pointers/sources? I wouldn't want acetylene on a cruising boat due to the acetone instability problem, but maybe a small well secured oxygen bottle and a separate well vented propane tank. On a steel boat I think it'd be important to have repairs potential on board. I didn't quite "get" the previous discussion on this site awhile back about about using a dc alternator for on board welding, it sounded intriguing though. and I was just reading in the "Welder's Handbook" by Richard Finch about a new magnesium arc cutting/gouging rod, the "Cronatron 1100 rod" that doesn't require air pressure or special rod holder and "can be used with any standard stick electrode holder". Has anyone used that for cutting? Gracias, Nicole On Oct 21, 2004, at 8:31 PM, carlmbentley wrote: hey gang, just thought i'd mention to those of you on a tight budget. i have been using oxy/propane instead of oxy/acetylene. works fine and is cheaper. sorry can't compare it to oxy/acetylene, i've never used it. -carl building 36 swain in florida To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <81804_0704_b_300250a.gif> Yahoo! Groups Links � To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ � � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com � � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5933|5933|2004-10-22 03:18:25|40KilosLighter|Sharing this with you at origamiboats, amazing weightloss product|EAT WHAT YOU WANT! 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You will not regret! http://amateur.pornparks.com/eric624/fatblast.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5934|5918|2004-10-22 03:40:51|denis buggy|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|dear Gary excellent reply , it is probably because a bottle of gas has no moving parts or buttons and has a dumb appearance that leads to a view that it is a simple piece of equipment. accidents with same are horrific and they should also have flame arrestors on each line before the bottle . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 3:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs DO NOT even think about refilling acetylene tanks! I used to have a partner who also owned an industrial gas business. Acetylene is not stored as a gas in the bottle. The bottle has a wick in it, like a magic marker pen. The wick is saturated in acetone, in which the acetylene dissolves, like CO2 in Coca Cola. Refilling acetylene bottles is a VERY risky business if you don't have absolutely the right conditions. It is a very unstable molecule when not dissolved in Acetone and can explode without any oxygen being present. The acetone in the bottle is why you should never lay an acetylene tank on it's side when using it, you lose some of the acetone that way. Refilling a bottle that has lost to much acetone turns the bottle into a bomb. The SIZE of your acetylene bottle determines the size of the tip you can run. The bottle must have enough volume so that the acetylene can come out of solution without fizzing the acetone. If your torch keeps popping and back firing the acetylene bottle is too small for the tip being used. Tanks are dated. They have to be hydro-tested every couple of years, used or not. I built a hydro-test rig for my partner. Once your tanks reach their hydro-test date no one will fill them unless you pay for the testing. If they fail you lose them. So when you swap tanks you are essentially contributing your bottles to the revolving pool and your rental covers the eventual hydro-test and replacement as well as the gas used. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > Welll...I'd rather take a shot at beating the "system". :) Especially > since it costs almost as much to get those little bitty tanks swapped > as the big ones! I think I'd rather rent some big ones and tap off > them into the little portable ones, which would bring the refill cost > down to about 1/3, maybe better. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" > wrote: > > Get over it, that's the way it works... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:33 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > > > > > Well, my luck is going pretty well. > > Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those > > 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. > > > > Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can > > play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand > > new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is > > std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, > > everything is 'swap' LOL. > > > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > > > thanx in advance. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5935|5918|2004-10-22 03:44:44|Ben Tucker|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|hi Another benefit of carring oxygen around is for first aid. great for any head injurys , drowning, heart props, etc. cheers Ben| 5936|5918|2004-10-22 09:58:13|carlmbentley|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|just cutting, i'm using arc/stick to weld. the idea was my fathers so i can't really source any info for you, sorry. try a search in google. -carl > Hello, > Carl, are you using the Oxy/propane just for cutting or for welding too? > Haven't seen a lot of info on this, any info. /pointers/sources? -snip-| 5937|5937|2004-10-22 10:58:00|jim dorey|(no subject)|all the talk of masts has made me want to mention some old tech, the lesh rotor, be great for a dual power boat, wind and diesel, one runs while the other don't, or use both. could be great for generatiing electricity if an electric transmission is built. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5938|5927|2004-10-22 14:13:04|evanmoonjunk|Re: Building space available?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is an old post: > > From: "misterinbetween2002" > Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:32 am > Subject: A safe, secure, inexpensive site to build your boat > > Anyone contemplating building a boat but lacking their own site. I > offer outdoor space with ample electricity on a farm in the mid > vancouver island area. Currently three Swain 36 footers are on site > in varying stages of completion. Rent is $100 per month for the > duration of your project. Living accomodation is occasionally > available on the farm and also exists in the surrounding area. For > info email me at kvanwest@s... > > Yahoo of course did its usual snip off the e-mail addy. > > Any idea who this is and if he is still willing? > >Hi Fred, I am familiar with this location as I built the 3 boats. 2 of the boats have been moved out, the third one will be moved by the end of the year. This spot might be still available but the owner is comtemplatng selling the place so length of time would be iffy. If you have any further questions, send me an email....Evan| 5939|5918|2004-10-22 15:11:27|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|You can cut with a 6010 rod and a stick welder if needed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Oxy/Acetylene Hello, Carl, are you using the Oxy/propane just for cutting or for welding too? Haven't seen a lot of info on this, any info. /pointers/sources? I wouldn't want acetylene on a cruising boat due to the acetone instability problem, but maybe a small well secured oxygen bottle and a separate well vented propane tank. On a steel boat I think it'd be important to have repairs potential on board. I didn't quite "get" the previous discussion on this site awhile back about about using a dc alternator for on board welding, it sounded intriguing though. and I was just reading in the "Welder's Handbook" by Richard Finch about a new magnesium arc cutting/gouging rod, the "Cronatron 1100 rod" that doesn't require air pressure or special rod holder and "can be used with any standard stick electrode holder". Has anyone used that for cutting? Gracias, Nicole On Oct 21, 2004, at 8:31 PM, carlmbentley wrote: hey gang, just thought i'd mention to those of you on a tight budget. i have been using oxy/propane instead of oxy/acetylene. works fine and is cheaper. sorry can't compare it to oxy/acetylene, i've never used it. -carl building 36 swain in florida To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <81804_0704_b_300250a.gif> Yahoo! Groups Links . To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 5940|5918|2004-10-22 17:33:31|fmichael graham|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|Nicole: As well as acetylene, you can use propane, Mapp, or natural gas for oxy-fuel cutting. Although not as fast a cutting speed is attainable with these alternatives, lower prices & increased safety are definite selling points. To give you some idea of cost savings: Oxy-Acetylene uses 1 part oxygen to 1 part acetylene Oxy-Mapp uses 2.5 parts oxygen to 1 part Mapp Oxy-Natural gas uses 2 parts oxygen to 1 part Nat gas Oxy-Propane uses 4 1/2 parts oxygen to 1 part Propane FYI, Mapp gas (methylacetylene-propadiene) is made by rearranging the molecules in acetylene & propane to form a compound which is much more stable/less explosive. Although boaters tend to shy away from propane, isolated containment that has a drain & good ventilation is all one needs to avoid turning their bilge into an explosion chamber. I had a CNG stove on my Cal 30 which, although it required more fills, was much safer than propane. For welding purposes, however, electric arc would be your best bet for speed, though you can oxy-acetylene weld sheet metal, plate, & pipe. In fact, the local gas co.(BC Gas) uses oxy-acetylene for pipe welding. Hope this helps, Mike Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: Hello, Carl, are you using the Oxy/propane just for cutting or for welding too? Haven't seen a lot of info on this, any info. /pointers/sources? I wouldn't want acetylene on a cruising boat due to the acetone instability problem, but maybe a small well secured oxygen bottle and a separate well vented propane tank. On a steel boat I think it'd be important to have repairs potential on board. I didn't quite "get" the previous discussion on this site awhile back about about using a dc alternator for on board welding, it sounded intriguing though. and I was just reading in the "Welder's Handbook" by Richard Finch about a new magnesium arc cutting/gouging rod, the "Cronatron 1100 rod" that doesn't require air pressure or special rod holder and "can be used with any standard stick electrode holder". Has anyone used that for cutting? Gracias, Nicole On Oct 21, 2004, at 8:31 PM, carlmbentley wrote: hey gang, just thought i'd mention to those of you on a tight budget. i have been using oxy/propane instead of oxy/acetylene. works fine and is cheaper. sorry can't compare it to oxy/acetylene, i've never used it. -carl building 36 swain in florida To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <81804_0704_b_300250a.gif> Yahoo! Groups Links � To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5941|5918|2004-10-22 17:34:29|fmichael graham|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|And Hang-overs. Ben Tucker wrote: hi Another benefit of carring oxygen around is for first aid. great for any head injurys , drowning, heart props, etc. cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5942|5918|2004-10-22 20:31:07|blueiceicle|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|Under no circumstances should you try to refill a Acetaline tank!!!! Even if you are working with a manifold system, IE. 2 Acetaline tanks, if you have on empty tank and hooked up and then hook up a full tank, and have the empty tanks valve open and crack your new tanks valve your putting yourself in a postition for a seriously bad problem!! A rapid drop in pressure in a Acetaline tank causes a explosion or fire, its probaly the most unstable gas availiable. the Acetaline will be leached out to fast not keeping in its mixture rate with acetone and bad things happen from there on in. Oxygen is not so bad but i still would not even bother trying to play with any cylinder. They are sleeping giants! Until you mess with them. Besides do you really care if you tanks have new paint? Just a thought Jesse| 5943|5918|2004-10-22 20:54:24|brentswain38|Re: Oxy/Acetylene|Steer clear of acetylene. Its expensive inconvinient and dangerous. I've been using oxy propane onboard for decades with no problem. Using yokes for a regulator from welding supplies and making a coupler out of 1 1/4 inch bronze shaft , tapped on each end for 1/4 inch standard pipe thread with a bleed screw in the middle , lets you fill a small oxygen bottle from a larger one.Make it a huge overkill on the adaptor size and keep the hole between the two yokes as small as possible. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Nicole: > As well as acetylene, you can use propane, Mapp, or natural gas for oxy-fuel cutting. Although not as fast a cutting speed is attainable with these alternatives, lower prices & increased safety are definite selling points. > > To give you some idea of cost savings: > > Oxy-Acetylene uses 1 part oxygen to 1 part acetylene > Oxy-Mapp uses 2.5 parts oxygen to 1 part Mapp > Oxy-Natural gas uses 2 parts oxygen to 1 part Nat gas > Oxy-Propane uses 4 1/2 parts oxygen to 1 part Propane > > FYI, Mapp gas (methylacetylene-propadiene) is made by rearranging the molecules in acetylene & propane to form a compound which is much more stable/less explosive. > > Although boaters tend to shy away from propane, isolated containment that has a drain & good ventilation is all one needs to avoid turning their bilge into an explosion chamber. I had a CNG stove on my Cal 30 which, although it required more fills, was much safer than propane. > > For welding purposes, however, electric arc would be your best bet for speed, though you can oxy-acetylene weld sheet metal, plate, & pipe. In fact, the local gas co.(BC Gas) uses oxy-acetylene for pipe welding. > > Hope this helps, > Mike > > Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: > > Hello, > Carl, are you using the Oxy/propane just for cutting or for welding too? > Haven't seen a lot of info on this, any info. /pointers/sources? > I wouldn't want acetylene on a cruising boat due to the acetone > instability problem, but maybe a small well secured oxygen bottle and a > separate well vented propane tank. On a steel boat I think it'd be > important to have repairs potential on board. > I didn't quite "get" the previous discussion on this site awhile back > about about using a dc alternator for on board welding, it sounded > intriguing though. and I was just reading in the "Welder's Handbook" > by Richard Finch about a new magnesium arc cutting/gouging rod, the > "Cronatron 1100 rod" that doesn't require air pressure or special rod > holder and "can be used with any standard stick electrode holder". Has > anyone used that for cutting? > Gracias, > Nicole > > > On Oct 21, 2004, at 8:31 PM, carlmbentley wrote: > > > hey gang, > > just thought i'd mention to those of you on a tight budget. i have > been using oxy/propane instead of oxy/acetylene. works fine and is > cheaper. sorry can't compare it to oxy/acetylene, i've never used it. > > -carl > building 36 swain in florida > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > <81804_0704_b_300250a.gif> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5944|5813|2004-10-22 21:03:49|brentswain38|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|I dyed my white sail slides black by boiling them in black Rit or Tintex fabric dye, available in most convenience stores or drug stores in Canada. It worked well and would probably dye the white plastic sheaves in most commercially made blocks,by throwing the whole block in for a few minutes , greatly extending their resistance to UV.It seemed to penetrate about a 32nd of a inch.Uv can make white sailslides and sheaves fail after a few years in the sun. Unfortunatly it doesn't work on polyprop. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:24:14 -0800, Carl Nostrand wrote: > > > Gary, > > > > I sure wish that I was around 1000 years ago to have a reference for > > how the oceans were. In Alaska, we have well managed fisheries for the > > Halibut and black cod which is were I have most of my experience. Over > > all, I would say that we are in a dire need for international > > cooperation on creating ocean sanctuaries that can protect are ocean > > resources and do some serious year round long term study are habitat. > > The fisheries are over capitalized and fish-farming is not the answer > > but a bigger problem. > > > > Carl > > round here the biggest problem is international floating factories > dragging the bottom and using huge nets in the spawning ground, if they > fished every part of the ocean but the spawning grounds empty there'd be > fish back in force by the next year. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ | 5945|5813|2004-10-23 01:22:51|Ben Tucker|Re: Colored Sail Longevity|Brent, what an great idea, I have had big problems with the white sheaves spliting around the sides and then jambing ropes at awkward times. This should solve that problem, I wonder if this dye can be used on polyester sails? I always painted inside any nylon through hulls that were abouve the water (ie bilge pump), because I had one split at the bottom joint due to UV. This should work on them to. Thanks Ben| 5946|5946|2004-10-23 01:30:13|Ben Tucker|Cleaning up/ working Stainless steel|Hi all I am nearly at that stage were I need to think about cleaning the stainless to stop it from from rusting. What works best to get rid of the "burnt" stainless look after welding and to stop my 316 welds from rusting up? also whats the best way to polish off all the steel grindings and weld splatter? I intend to get the decks blasted and will paint quite abit of the stainless but it will be nice to leave some showing. BTW I have found those really skinny 1mm cutting disks are awesome for cutting Stainless steel, going through it like butter. cheers Ben| 5947|5946|2004-10-23 02:13:20|Glenn Cramond|Re: Cleaning up/ working Stainless steel|Ben, Stainless is cleaned after welding with a passivating paste an example is on http://www.poligratuk.co.uk/frame_con2.htm Glenn Ben Tucker wrote: Hi all I am nearly at that stage were I need to think about cleaning the stainless to stop it from from rusting. What works best to get rid of the "burnt" stainless look after welding and to stop my 316 welds from rusting up? also whats the best way to polish off all the steel grindings and weld splatter? I intend to get the decks blasted and will paint quite abit of the stainless but it will be nice to leave some showing. BTW I have found those really skinny 1mm cutting disks are awesome for cutting Stainless steel, going through it like butter. cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5948|5946|2004-10-23 03:32:20|Graeme|Re: Cleaning up/ working Stainless steel|Be very careful when using these pickling fluids .....is some places you have to have a licence to use them ,or prove that you have taken a course in the safe of use of them ......especially ..with Hydrofluoric Acids . In older ali cleaner it was a common ingredient .......worked much better than the new batch of cleaners. But it is too dangerous to use unless you know the risks . Attacks your bone marrow.......... so I am told with through skin absorption How much have you got to clean HIGH grade wet and dry (1200 1500) works pretty good then some buffing compound and a heap of elbow grease| 5949|2618|2004-10-23 04:07:47|denis buggy|Re: (unknown)|dear jim , please tell us about the lesh rotor . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim dorey" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 3:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] (unknown) > > all the talk of masts has made me want to mention some old tech, the lesh > rotor, be great for a dual power boat, wind and diesel, one runs while the > other don't, or use both. could be great for generatiing electricity if > an electric transmission is built. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 5950|2618|2004-10-23 11:50:27|jim dorey|Re: (unknown)|On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:07:04 +0100, denis buggy wrote: > > dear jim, please tell us about the lesh rotor. denis http://www.rexresearch.com/boats/1boat.htm#lesh i found that page when i was searching for flettner rotor info, why i was searching for that i can't really remember. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5951|5951|2004-10-23 17:07:02|yukoncharley|First Post|I have to say reading everything I can on ORIGAMI boats over the past week has left me amazed. After making the decision to work with steel in the future due to wood failure in a tropical environment. I happened across photos of the ORIGAMI method and it was such a relief and a personal breakthrough mentaly. I had just bought a welder and was already filling the depth of the water I had jumped into and then right before me a better way. What dosent suprise me is where most of these boats are being built since Im also a resident of ALASKA curently living in THAILAND. The no nonsense can do practical attitude of the people living along the coast and interior of B.C.and ALASKA is removed from all the hype by the unforgiving climate. I plan to buy some plans from Brent but Ive read so many posts can someone give the address where he is currently shipping books and plans from OCT 2004. Thank you for the great reading and good information ive found here.| 5952|5952|2004-10-23 18:09:17|..|Re colored sails longgevity|Hi Ben and Brent, As Brent has found out using a black dye to dye his nylon sail slides will give some protection from UV. It will extend the life of the parts but the dye dose not give a dense black which is required for the best protection, parts are made from compounded black nylon when maximum protection is required this material has carbon black added which will give a dense black which blocks the UV. For hull fittings I would not rely on the use of dye as the fitting will still be degrade by the UV,and are stressed due to the load applied to the back nut, it is best to continue to paint them for best protection. Most items that are moulded from coloured plastic materials will have an improved protection as the colouring agents will be pigments which are made from minerals these again will stop the UV from penetrating into the materials. Many of the plastic polymers are translucent or semi translusent,for outside use they must be protected with pigments and UV Stabilisers ,the blue plastic chemical drums which wash up all over the world are a good example. As for polyprop, polyethlene,LD and HD they cannot be dyed,the only way to get some protection as Brent has done is to paint them but some pre treatment is required as I explained some time ago , this is done by flaming the surface with a gas blow torch, the flame will slightly melt and oxidise the surface which the paint will then stick to, it still might flake off in time. I have used a blue plastic drum as a settling tank for the rain water from the roof which then feeds the fish pond, which I treated this way and painted two years ago and the paint is still holding on but we have not seen the sun much this year, it has rained most of the summer. We have not had to worry about the sun on the backs of our necks when welding have we Colin! Geoff Cheshire England --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004| 5953|5953|2004-10-23 19:06:11|brentswain38|Deck weld distortion|Several people have been fully welding the underside of the decks on my boats causing severe oilcanning on the topsides. If you weld a piece of 1/8th plate to 3/16th using 1/8th inch 7024, and try to break the weld, it's impossible to break it at the weld as the weld metal is considerably thicker than the deck plate. The deck plate will break an eighth of a inch away from the weld every time. Thus fully welding the underside of the decks serves no usefull purpose whatever, and only causes distortion in the topsides. Brent| 5954|5951|2004-10-23 19:11:12|brentswain38|Re: First Post|My mailing address is 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC V0R2V0 Canada Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yukoncharley" wrote: > > I have to say reading everything I can on ORIGAMI boats over the > past week has left me amazed. After making the decision to work with > steel in the future due to wood failure in a tropical environment. I > happened across photos of the ORIGAMI method and it was such a relief > and a personal breakthrough mentaly. I had just bought a welder and > was already filling the depth of the water I had jumped into and then > right before me a better way. What dosent suprise me is where most of > these boats are being built since Im also a resident of ALASKA > curently living in THAILAND. The no nonsense can do practical > attitude of the people living along the coast and interior of B.C.and > ALASKA is removed from all the hype by the unforgiving climate. > I plan to buy some plans from Brent but Ive read so many posts can > someone give the address where he is currently shipping books and > plans from OCT 2004. Thank you for the great reading and good > information ive found here. | 5955|5946|2004-10-23 19:15:08|brentswain38|Re: Cleaning up/ working Stainless steel|Those angle grinder pads which look like brillo pads do a great job of polishing stainless. My neighbor smeared Brylcreme ( a little dab will do ya) all over his extremely shinny stainless and wiped it off with a rag. It has stayed extremely shinny ever since, for many months ,and shows no tendency to darken. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > > Hi all > > I am nearly at that stage were I need to think about cleaning the > stainless to stop it from from rusting. What works best to get rid of > the "burnt" stainless look after welding and to stop my 316 welds > from rusting up? also whats the best way to polish off all the steel > grindings and weld splatter? I intend to get the decks blasted and > will paint quite abit of the stainless but it will be nice to leave > some showing. > > BTW I have found those really skinny 1mm cutting disks are awesome > for cutting Stainless steel, going through it like butter. > > cheers > > Ben | 5956|5956|2004-10-24 00:44:08|TureAngel|Finally got my webcam repaired! (sexi pic;)|Hey guys! I don't want to be a nuisance, but I have to tell you that I finally got my webcam repaired! So now I am on full view again like usually! Also the shop that sold me the webcam gave me better software along with the repair, so now I can also chat real time with people who watch the cam! ;) Come try it out on my homepage, but be nice to me ok? http://www.amateurhope.com/TureAngel/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5957|5953|2004-10-24 06:00:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: Deck weld distortion|Brent, I wish that you had put this information on your plans. I should imagine that many building your boats have limited welding experience and information on welding procedure would be an enormous help. Good looking boats built to your plans are a usefull advertisment. Distorted boats are not. You would be doing yourself and others a favour if you were to revise your drawings with this information and other recommendations that you have made in these posts. Just a few words would have saved me and the others you mentioned a lot of work and given us a better looking boats. That said I realise it is difficult to anticipate mistakes that people will make, but the drawings that I bought are dated 1988 with no revisions shown. I would have expected that over the years you would have revised them to show the advice that you readily give in emails and on this forum. That said I still think the boats are a great idea. Regards, Ted| 5958|5958|2004-10-24 13:00:09|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: [ Jim Dorey's Lesh Rotor|Jim mentioned a 'Lesh Rotor' that was old technology. He mentioned a dual powered boat wind/diesel. I've had a couple of those, Ketch w/ a perkins 4.108... Seriously tho, what's a Lesh Rotor & how's it work? Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 5959|5872|2004-10-24 13:13:34|gschnell|Re: windlass/winch|The cable winch, as you describe it, is what I have done. Since the boat is still being built, it has not been tested. I am an off-roader and have built a number of trucks. The old Warn 8000 uprights are watertight, very fast under light load and slower as the load increases. They have a built-in drum brake to stop the winch from rolling backward and a free-wheel function that allows anchor deployment with power. I have added a manual rachet assembly to the none-drive end of the drum. In the event of power failure, put the winch in free-wheel and manually winch in the cable. Because the drum only holds about 300', I removed the steel cable drum and built one twice as long from SS. I plan to place a "floating" disc in between the inner and outer drum end plates. This will allow me to carry 300' of cable each for two anchors on two "separate spools" (drum halves) or slide the floating plate to one end and carry up to 700' of cable on the drum. I poured 65 lb. lead kellets which will serve as chain equivalents to weight the cable and improve the anchor holding angle. Since I haven't heard of anyone else doing this, I sure would be interested in a dialogue. Look forward to hearing from you. Gord Schnell Richmond Bill Jaine wrote: > In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. > > > > Does anyone know any reason why I couldn’t use a vehicle recovery winch with > wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. > > > > I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor (Bruce 33, > 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1” nylon). > > > > The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian ($300 > US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable and remote > switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of > vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn’t it? > > > > I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the anchor > roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach that to > the anchor and have an anchoring system that’s reasonably efficient in day > to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about kills me > these days! > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 5960|5874|2004-10-24 13:44:30|gschnell|Re: Sheet Leads/Deck track etc.|I have designed, but not built a boom-track of 4'X3/8" SS flatbar (on edge) saddled by two lengths of 1" sched 40 SS pipe. The bearinged car travels on the pipe surfaces and is stabilized by the flatbar. I recently scored a 20' length of Gioit 2" deck-track. I am thru-bolting it to the edge of a length of 2"X1" steel flatbar and welding the flatbar into 4" tall deck towers that bolt to the PH roof. I may curve the entire arrangement to the PH roof profile and the arc of the boom. We'll see how practical that is. Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Hi all, first sorry bout the double post glitch. > > I'm at the point where I'm trying to scope out my deck layout and in > reviewing the photos section, I don't seem to see any deck track for > any of the various sheet leads. What are you guys using for fairleads > > and where are you putting them? The one REALLY nice item I saw was > that nifty homemade stainless snatchblock for the pipe toerail. If > whomever built that has any more detailed photos or 'words of wisdom' > for building them, I'd appreciate hearing that too. > > As for the main, is anyone using track? a length of bent pipe? or just > > multipart tackle? > > Next, has anyone decided to go for a club on the staysail for self > tending? or worked out any other arrangement? > > Lastly, has everyone decided to stick with the sloop/cutter/double > headsail sloop rig? or has anyone decided to go with a divided rig? > > Thanks in advance for any comments or observations.:) > > seer > > FYI- I've been scoping out two possibilities on the 40'. First a > simplified schooner using the Wharram type of wrap-around soft > 'wingsail' which requires no mast track, hoops, lacing or other > nonsense and would present a pretty fair airfoil section on the round > aluminum pipe masts I envision, and second, a modern variation on the > staysail schooner employing brent's roller reefing gear on the main > staysail, the forestaysail and the jib making 'reefing' essentially a > non-issue. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5961|5946|2004-10-24 14:06:36|gschnell|Re: Cleaning up/ working Stainless steel|Ben Don't paint the stainless. There is grinding disc product available from United Abrasives (SAIT model A54F - Flexible) that is designed to clean and polish SS. It is fantastic. Removes any trace of the weld site and looks like a very professional finish.You did install it for its' no maintenance characteristics (didn't you?). Gord Ben Tucker wrote: > > Hi all > > I am nearly at that stage were I need to think about cleaning the > stainless to stop it from from rusting. What works best to get rid of > the "burnt" stainless look after welding and to stop my 316 welds > from rusting up? also whats the best way to polish off all the steel > grindings and weld splatter? I intend to get the decks blasted and > will paint quite abit of the stainless but it will be nice to leave > some showing. > > BTW I have found those really skinny 1mm cutting disks are awesome > for cutting Stainless steel, going through it like butter. > > cheers > > Ben > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5962|5872|2004-10-24 14:20:39|seeratlas|Re: windlass/winch|Gord, Good choice on the 8000, I think If I was inclined to try it, and had an 8000 laying around hehehe, that's what I try. I like your idea about the extended spool, as I understand it you can winch in the main rode, then lock that down and power up the secondary to bring that in, or vice versa I guess since the secondary would be more likely to come in first. I'd still be concerned about having that starter motor hanging out there in the open, and I'd still be concerned a bit about the duty cycle of the starter motor. Most 4x4 winch pulls are pretty minor distance wise, 20, maybe 40 ft. But your talking about a sustained 300 ft (admittedly at substantially less load than trying to drag a 4k lb jeep up out of a ditch). I guess if you can keep it cool and water out of it, it should work, but for me, I'm going to go hydraulic. :) The other thing I've been considering is having all that weight high up on the foredeck. I've considering the same type of dual reel retrieval as it seems to me if you can put it out and get it back easily and quickly, you're far more likely to put out a second anchor which is often a VERY good idea. BUT, with the 12 to 20 odd feet of chain for each cable rode, you're beginning to talk some weight here. I've been thinking about sinking the whole thing in a wedge shaped 'well' pretty much under where Brent locates his. Since I'm not a forward V-berth kind of guy, I'm thinking an angled (down to the rear) wedge shaped well, with some stainless track for the rode to come in over the bow rollers and feed directly to the windlass down in the hole, I can move all that weight down a few feet, clean up the foredeck, and still keep the chain/cable etc. out of the boat. A drain pipe would be sent overboard from the lowest part of the well. I'm designing up a high power water jet outlet pretty much permanently aimed at the cable/chain before it gets aboard (I've decided on a moderate bowsprit) so hopefully the mud/stink and sludge will never get to the deck. (jet doubles as a water cannon for wayward dinghys kayakers, and unsuspecting dock walkers --- hehehe j/k:). Seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > The cable winch, as you describe it, is what I have done. Since the boat is still > being built, it has not been tested. > I am an off-roader and have built a number of trucks. The old Warn 8000 uprights are > watertight, very fast under light load and slower as the load increases. They have a > built-in drum brake to stop the winch from rolling backward and a free-wheel function > that allows anchor deployment with power. I have added a manual rachet assembly to > the none-drive end of the drum. In the event of power failure, put the winch in > free-wheel and manually winch in the cable. Because the drum only holds about 300', > I removed the steel cable drum and built one twice as long from SS. I plan to place a > "floating" disc in between the inner and outer drum end plates. This will allow me to > carry 300' of cable each for two anchors on two "separate spools" (drum halves) or > slide the floating plate to one end and carry up to 700' of cable on the drum. I > poured 65 lb. lead kellets which will serve as chain equivalents to weight the cable > and improve the anchor holding angle. > Since I haven't heard of anyone else doing this, I sure would be interested in a > dialogue. Look forward to hearing from you. > Gord Schnell > Richmond > > Bill Jaine wrote: > > > In my endless quest for a cheap (read affordable) windlass. > > > > > > > > Does anyone know any reason why I couldn't use a vehicle recovery winch with > > wire instead of chain for day to day anchoring. > > > > > > > > I know that in a blow I would have to put down the main anchor (Bruce 33, > > 100 feet of 3/8 BBB chain and 300 feet of 1" nylon). > > > > > > > > The local farm supply (Princess Auto) has on sale for $444 Canadian ($300 > > US) , an 8000 lb pull 12V winch with 95 feet of 5/16 steel cable and remote > > switch, same as on front of Jeeps etc. If it travels on the front of > > vehicles then it has to be pretty waterproof doesn't it? > > > > > > > > I thought that if I was to mount that back about 7 feet from the anchor > > roller, I could put 7 feet of chain on the end of the wire, attach that to > > the anchor and have an anchoring system that's reasonably efficient in day > > to day weather, pulling up the Bruce and chain and rode just about kills me > > these days! > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 15/10/2004 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 5963|22|2004-10-24 14:27:04|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /M42wingschoon4.bmp Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : Seer's Swain42 Schooner You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/M42wingschoon4.bmp To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 5964|5964|2004-10-24 15:04:28|seeratlas|My proposed Swain Schooner|Ok, It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together depicting my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the drawing and give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what they see. Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 and need some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable schooner rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing and why. First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and basically the drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in the world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles such that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the gallows and crutches that they will set on. The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with Wharram soft 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm planning on using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all that 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly just above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also no 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a Fisherman (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for extreme light air 'foolin around'.:) All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look like it in the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as they perform more like struts. As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and staysail boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on the jib. I can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such that when light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power or leave it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in moderate weather. My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so reefing/dousing sail is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the foredeck. With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by just throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as easy as it gets for a single hander. Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. sq. ft so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down lower and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when dealing with gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down and secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling with gaffs, no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial matter to toss up a trisail or two. For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny and/or fly mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation but I think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty much the normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and should provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to point with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for thrashing to weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on the rig, hard on me :) sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own rollers. I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward peak, the windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other light, but voluminous 'stuff'. Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head for a shower type thing. Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a settee 'study', with folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, the foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where sails can be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, spares, lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second option another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings up to make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee somewhat shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with revolving captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the instruments, comm gear, radar, chart table etc. on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the master cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the shallow cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you can extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk just forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the desk etc. Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. either in the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. just forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of the galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft cabin, the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck (lazarette) and just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should they want. On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' formed by the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on the mast. This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing but blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, the reel winches make the most sense to me. Ok thats basically it. Fire away :) seer b.| 5965|5953|2004-10-24 17:39:35|brentswain38|Re: Deck weld distortion|One can improve distorted boatrs by runin g a stringer about 6 inches below the deck lie and jacking out the hoolows , tacking it as you go. I hadn't noticed this type of distortion until recently. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Brent, > I wish that you had put this information on your plans. I should > imagine that many building your boats have limited welding > experience and information on welding procedure would be an enormous > help. Good looking boats built to your plans are a usefull > advertisment. Distorted boats are not. You would be doing yourself > and others a favour if you were to revise your drawings with this > information and other recommendations that you have made in these > posts. Just a few words would have saved me and the others you > mentioned a lot of work and given us a better looking boats. That > said I realise it is difficult to anticipate mistakes that people > will make, but the drawings that I bought are dated 1988 with no > revisions shown. I would have expected that over the years you > would have revised them to show the advice that you readily give in > emails and on this forum. That said I still think the boats are a > great idea. > Regards, > Ted | 5966|5964|2004-10-24 19:37:00|shirleipmendes|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Dear Seeratlas, I would like to take a look. Cheers, Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] My proposed Swain Schooner Ok, It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together depicting my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the drawing and give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what they see. Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 and need some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable schooner rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing and why. First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and basically the drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in the world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles such that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the gallows and crutches that they will set on. The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with Wharram soft 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm planning on using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all that 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly just above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also no 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a Fisherman (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for extreme light air 'foolin around'.:) All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look like it in the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as they perform more like struts. As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and staysail boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on the jib. I can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such that when light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power or leave it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in moderate weather. My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so reefing/dousing sail is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the foredeck. With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by just throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as easy as it gets for a single hander. Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. sq. ft so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down lower and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when dealing with gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down and secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling with gaffs, no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial matter to toss up a trisail or two. For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny and/or fly mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation but I think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty much the normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and should provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to point with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for thrashing to weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on the rig, hard on me :) sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own rollers. I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward peak, the windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other light, but voluminous 'stuff'. Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head for a shower type thing. Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a settee 'study', with folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, the foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where sails can be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, spares, lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second option another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings up to make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee somewhat shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with revolving captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the instruments, comm gear, radar, chart table etc. on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the master cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the shallow cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you can extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk just forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the desk etc. Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. either in the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. just forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of the galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft cabin, the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck (lazarette) and just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should they want. On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' formed by the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on the mast. This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing but blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, the reel winches make the most sense to me. Ok thats basically it. Fire away :) seer b. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5967|5964|2004-10-24 20:04:22|Carl Nostrand|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Great design! Thanks for your well detailed description. I have always been a James Warren fan. Have you sailed with that Warren rig? My concern is just dropping sail fast in a blow. I like the ample sail plan with a low center of effort. What's your engine power plans? ---------- Heres the S/V TOOTHPICK, a conventional 3 masted schooner that I was a part of. She was a sports car in heavy weather. Unbelievable ride sailing into a steep 20-25 foot chop! Regards, Carl Oct 24, 2004, at 11:02 AM, seeratlas wrote: > > > Ok, > It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) > > I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together depicting > my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. > > I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the drawing and > give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what they see. > > Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 and need > some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable schooner > rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing and why. > > First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and basically the > drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in the > world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the > european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles such > that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the gallows > and crutches that they will set on. > > The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with Wharram soft > 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm planning on > using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all that > 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly just > above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also no > 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a Fisherman > (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for extreme > light air 'foolin around'.:) > > All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look like it in > the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as they > perform more like struts. > > As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and staysail > boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on the jib. I > can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such that when > light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power or leave > it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in moderate > weather. > > My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so reefing/dousing sail > is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the foredeck. > > With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by just > throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as easy as > it gets for a single hander. > > Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. sq. ft > so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down lower > and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. > > I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when dealing with > gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down and > secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling with gaffs, > no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. > > In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial matter > to toss up a trisail or two. > > For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny and/or fly > mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation but I > think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty much the > normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and should > provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to point > with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for thrashing to > weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on the rig, > hard on me :) > > sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own rollers. > I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. > > My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward peak, the > windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other light, > but voluminous 'stuff'. > Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head for a > shower type thing. > Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a settee 'study', with > folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, the > foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. > > To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where sails can > be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, spares, > lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second option > another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings up to > make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. > > It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee somewhat > shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. > > In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with revolving > captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the instruments, > comm gear, radar, chart table etc. > > on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area > immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. > > AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the master > cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the shallow > cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). > This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you can > extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk just > forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the desk etc. > > Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. either in > the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. just > forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of the > galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. > > Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft cabin, > the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck (lazarette) and > just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should they want. > > On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' formed by > the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on the mast. > This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing but > blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, the > reel winches make the most sense to me. > > Ok thats basically it. > > Fire away :) > > seer > b. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5968|5964|2004-10-24 22:38:51|seeratlas|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|-:) File name in the files section of the group is "M42wingshooner4.bmp" I think :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shirleipmendes" wrote: > Dear Seeratlas, > > I would like to take a look. > > Cheers, > > Roger > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] My proposed Swain Schooner > > > > Ok, > It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) > > I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together depicting > my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. > > I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the drawing and > give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what they see. > > Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 and need > some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable schooner > rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing and why. > > First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and basically the > drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in the > world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the > european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles such > that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the gallows > and crutches that they will set on. > > The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with Wharram soft > 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm planning on > using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all that > 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly just > above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also no > 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a Fisherman > (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for extreme > light air 'foolin around'.:) > > All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look like it in > the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as they > perform more like struts. > > As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and staysail > boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on the jib. I > can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such that when > light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power or leave > it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in moderate > weather. > > My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so reefing/dousing sail > is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the foredeck. > > With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by just > throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as easy as > it gets for a single hander. > > Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. sq. ft > so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down lower > and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. > > I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when dealing with > gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down and > secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling with gaffs, > no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. > > In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial matter > to toss up a trisail or two. > > For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny and/or fly > mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation but I > think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty much the > normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and should > provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to point > with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for thrashing to > weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on the rig, > hard on me :) > > sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own rollers. > I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. > > My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward peak, the > windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other light, > but voluminous 'stuff'. > Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head for a > shower type thing. > Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a settee 'study', with > folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, the > foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. > > To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where sails can > be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, spares, > lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second option > another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings up to > make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. > > It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee somewhat > shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. > > In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with revolving > captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the instruments, > comm gear, radar, chart table etc. > > on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area > immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. > > AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the master > cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the shallow > cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). > This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you can > extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk just > forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the desk etc. > > Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. either in > the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. just > forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of the > galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. > > Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft cabin, > the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck (lazarette) and > just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should they want. > > On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' formed by > the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on the mast. > This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing but > blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, the > reel winches make the most sense to me. > > Ok thats basically it. > > Fire away :) > > seer > b. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5969|5918|2004-10-24 23:38:23|julian_tello|Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs|"If your torch keeps popping and back firing the acetylene bottle is too small for the tip being used." Sometimes the popping is cause by trying to weld with a tip size too small for the metal thickness or trying to weld with the correct tip size but an incorrectly adjusted (too small) welding flame. If popping occurs try increasing the size of the welding flame at the torch. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > DO NOT even think about refilling acetylene tanks! I used to have a partner > who also owned an industrial gas business. Acetylene is not stored as a gas > in the bottle. The bottle has a wick in it, like a magic marker pen. The > wick is saturated in acetone, in which the acetylene dissolves, like CO2 in > Coca Cola. Refilling acetylene bottles is a VERY risky business if you > don't have absolutely the right conditions. It is a very unstable molecule > when not dissolved in Acetone and can explode without any oxygen being > present. > > The acetone in the bottle is why you should never lay an acetylene tank on > it's side when using it, you lose some of the acetone that way. Refilling a > bottle that has lost to much acetone turns the bottle into a bomb. The SIZE > of your acetylene bottle determines the size of the tip you can run. The > bottle must have enough volume so that the acetylene can come out of > solution without fizzing the acetone. If your torch keeps popping and back > firing the acetylene bottle is too small for the tip being used. > > Tanks are dated. They have to be hydro-tested every couple of years, used or > not. I built a hydro-test rig for my partner. Once your tanks reach their > hydro-test date no one will fill them unless you pay for the testing. If > they fail you lose them. So when you swap tanks you are essentially > contributing your bottles to the revolving pool and your rental covers the > eventual hydro-test and replacement as well as the gas used. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:54 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > > > > > Welll...I'd rather take a shot at beating the "system". :) Especially > > since it costs almost as much to get those little bitty tanks swapped > > as the big ones! I think I'd rather rent some big ones and tap off > > them into the little portable ones, which would bring the refill cost > > down to about 1/3, maybe better. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Di Stefano" > > wrote: > > > Get over it, that's the way it works... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:33 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Portable Oxy/Acetaline (sp?) rigs > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, my luck is going pretty well. > > > Stepfather gave me brand new portable Oxy rig. It's one of those > > > 300.00 rigs with the two small tanks in a holder. > > > > > > Anyway, I go down to the local gas place to get em filled up so I can > > > play with it and son of a gun if he doesn't want me to swap my brand > > > new tanks with some pieces of junk he has LOL. He assures me this is > > > std practice now where almost nobody fills tanks at their location, > > > everything is 'swap' LOL. > > > > > > Welll, given the price to 'swap' and the prospect of losing my brand > > > new tanks, I was wondering if its possible to rig up some transfer > > > hoses that would let me fill the little tanks off a pair of the big > > > rental tanks. I'm wondering if this can be done safely? > > > > > > thanx in advance. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > ---- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 5970|5964|2004-10-24 23:39:45|Mike|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Seer: Sharp looking design. She seems to be carrying one heck of a lot of sail area, though. A lot of mast area, also. With bilge keels, wouldn't she be too tender? Or, am I off-base? I sure like that profile, very impressive. Thanks, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > -:) File name in the files section of the group is > "M42wingshooner4.bmp" I think :) > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shirleipmendes" > wrote: > > Dear Seeratlas, > > > > I would like to take a look. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Roger > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:02 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] My proposed Swain Schooner > > > > > > > > Ok, > > It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) > > > > I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together depicting > > my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. > > > > I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the drawing and > > give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what they see. > > > > Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 and need > > some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable schooner > > rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing and why. > > > > First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and basically the > > drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in the > > world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the > > european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles such > > that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the gallows > > and crutches that they will set on. > > > > The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with Wharram soft > > 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm planning on > > using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all that > > 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly just > > above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also no > > 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a Fisherman > > (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for extreme > > light air 'foolin around'.:) > > > > All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look like it in > > the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as they > > perform more like struts. > > > > As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and staysail > > boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on the jib. I > > can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such that when > > light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power or leave > > it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in moderate > > weather. > > > > My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so reefing/dousing sail > > is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the foredeck. > > > > With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by just > > throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as easy as > > it gets for a single hander. > > > > Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. sq. ft > > so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down lower > > and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. > > > > I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when dealing with > > gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down and > > secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling with gaffs, > > no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. > > > > In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial matter > > to toss up a trisail or two. > > > > For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny and/or fly > > mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation but I > > think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty much the > > normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and should > > provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to point > > with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for thrashing to > > weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on the rig, > > hard on me :) > > > > sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own rollers. > > I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. > > > > My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward peak, the > > windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other light, > > but voluminous 'stuff'. > > Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head for a > > shower type thing. > > Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a settee 'study', with > > folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, the > > foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. > > > > To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where sails can > > be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, spares, > > lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second option > > another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings up to > > make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. > > > > It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee somewhat > > shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. > > > > In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with revolving > > captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the instruments, > > comm gear, radar, chart table etc. > > > > on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area > > immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. > > > > AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the master > > cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the shallow > > cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). > > This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you can > > extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk just > > forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the desk etc. > > > > Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. either in > > the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. just > > forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of the > > galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. > > > > Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft cabin, > > the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck (lazarette) and > > just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should they > want. > > > > On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' formed by > > the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on the > mast. > > This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing but > > blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, the > > reel winches make the most sense to me. > > > > Ok thats basically it. > > > > Fire away :) > > > > seer > > b. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5971|5964|2004-10-24 23:59:31|seeratlas|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|You are right, my question to Brent is always whether I'm going to overpower or otherwise screw up the balance he's designed into the hull. I'm thinking I'll probably end up around 27 to 28k displacement which is a number he's suggested. My guess is that using aluminum pipe will save me some weight on high over wood or steel masts. The masts are supposed to be just about the LOD of the boat, more or less, I may have drawn them too tall and yes, its a lot of sail but not overly so for the displacement. I think I'd rather be able to put it up and have the option of taking some down than not having enough in the first place:) Plus, if I understand corectly some of you guys are throwing 47 ft. steel sticks on the 36 footers! with good results. Bottom line is that I'll go with what works and if that means shorter sticks, then that means shorter sticks :) heheh. I'm also trying to keep as much weight low in the boat as possible to help offset the rig, and plan to save a lot of weight in the interior fit out so I can instead use that allowance for more ballast. I'm looking at the possibility of adding some kind of heavy plate or bulb to the bottom of the bilge keels, both to facilitate grounding, and move some of the ballast allotment to the maximum depth possible. I'll rely on the designer's opinion in that regard :) cause in the end, I don't want to screw up the balance of the boat. :) Regarding the mast area, you're right. Those masts are drawn too thick :) and as far as drag goes, the sleeved rig fairs even a round mast into a pretty decent air foil. Lastly, with the home base being the northwest, and the prevailing light winds of the area, (with intermittent gales hehehe) the thought of a light air rig standing able to douse big chunks of sail area quickly while leaving the boat in some semblance of balance is what this divided rig is all about. As we get farther along, the calcs will give a pretty good indication of how much is going to be too much etc. :) seer > Seer: > Sharp looking design. She seems to be carrying one heck of a lot of > sail area, though. A lot of mast area, also. With bilge keels, > wouldn't she be too tender? Or, am I off-base? I sure like that > profile, very impressive. > Thanks, > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > -:) File name in the files section of the group is > > "M42wingshooner4.bmp" I think :) > > > > seer > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shirleipmendes" > > wrote: > > > Dear Seeratlas, > > > > > > I would like to take a look. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Roger > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:02 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] My proposed Swain Schooner > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, > > > It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) > > > > > > I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together > depicting > > > my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. > > > > > > I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the > drawing and > > > give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what > they see. > > > > > > Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 > and need > > > some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable > schooner > > > rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing > and why. > > > > > > First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and > basically the > > > drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in > the > > > world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the > > > european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles > such > > > that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the > gallows > > > and crutches that they will set on. > > > > > > The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with > Wharram soft > > > 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm > planning on > > > using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all > that > > > 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly > just > > > above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also > no > > > 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a > Fisherman > > > (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for > extreme > > > light air 'foolin around'.:) > > > > > > All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look > like it in > > > the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as > they > > > perform more like struts. > > > > > > As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and > staysail > > > boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on > the jib. I > > > can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such > that when > > > light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power > or leave > > > it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in > moderate > > > weather. > > > > > > My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so > reefing/dousing sail > > > is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the > foredeck. > > > > > > With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by > just > > > throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as > easy as > > > it gets for a single hander. > > > > > > Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. > sq. ft > > > so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down > lower > > > and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. > > > > > > I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when > dealing with > > > gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down > and > > > secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling > with gaffs, > > > no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. > > > > > > In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial > matter > > > to toss up a trisail or two. > > > > > > For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny > and/or fly > > > mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation > but I > > > think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty > much the > > > normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and > should > > > provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to > point > > > with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for > thrashing to > > > weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on > the rig, > > > hard on me :) > > > > > > sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own > rollers. > > > I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. > > > > > > My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward > peak, the > > > windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other > light, > > > but voluminous 'stuff'. > > > Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head > for a > > > shower type thing. > > > Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a > settee 'study', with > > > folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, > the > > > foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. > > > > > > To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where > sails can > > > be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, > spares, > > > lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second > option > > > another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings > up to > > > make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. > > > > > > It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee > somewhat > > > shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. > > > > > > In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with > revolving > > > captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the > instruments, > > > comm gear, radar, chart table etc. > > > > > > on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area > > > immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. > > > > > > AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the > master > > > cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the > shallow > > > cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). > > > This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you > can > > > extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk > just > > > forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the > desk etc. > > > > > > Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. > either in > > > the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. > just > > > forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of > the > > > galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. > > > > > > Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft > cabin, > > > the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck > (lazarette) and > > > just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should > they > > want. > > > > > > On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' > formed by > > > the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on > the > > mast. > > > This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing > but > > > blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, > the > > > reel winches make the most sense to me. > > > > > > Ok thats basically it. > > > > > > Fire away :) > > > > > > seer > > > b. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5972|5964|2004-10-25 00:46:01|seeratlas|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Mike, Several other things I forgot to mention. It's possible that your monitor may be distorting the proportions abit. I just checked and the tallest stick is only 47 feet or so OFF THE WATER. That's not bad for a 42 foot LOD and I will probably chop another two feet off of that without losing noticeable sail area. Of course the foremast is somewhat shorter. Next, for those who've never sailed a gaff rig, there are some useful sail tending characteristics which should be mentioned. First, when you're confronted with a sudden increase in wind you can first ease out that line you see on the peak of the foresail gaff (the vang). That allows the head of the sail to twist off to leeward dumping excess wind out of the head of the sail in the process. If you need more you can ease the peak halyard which can effectively lower the sail area by 30 to 45 percent by drooping the gaff. You can't do this for very long without straining the sail unduly, but in an emergency its a useful feature to dump lots of wind in a hurry. Now conversely, on any course other than dead downwind or hard on the wind, you can sheet in that same vang and REALLY get some drive out of the top of the sail. (note it is customary to also rig a vang to the stern quarters from the peak of the Mainsail gaff too :) And if Santa Clause happens to drop the new sail lottery in your lap :) and 4 or 5 friends want to come over and go sail those Northwest Schooner races with you...heheh you can lose the foremast boom then run up an overlapping loosefooted foresail which you tack just like a genny with a healthy Fisherman behind it, and say a 130 Genoa on the jib stay. This is SERIOUS sail power and will get everyone on board sitting on the windward rail in a hurry LOL. You may not be going as fast as you think you're going but I guarantee you its one hell of an exciting ride :) For the downwind legs, forget the spinnaker, wing out the genny and foresail, throw a big mule on the mainmast, run up the GollyWobbler and let er fly :) fun stuff :) seer > > > > Seer: > > Sharp looking design. She seems to be carrying one heck of a lot of > > sail area, though. A lot of mast area, also. With bilge keels, > > wouldn't she be too tender? Or, am I off-base? I sure like that > > profile, very impressive. > > Thanks, > > Mike > > >Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5973|5964|2004-10-25 01:26:36|Ben Tucker|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Hello Seer, I have been thinking about the pocket luff gaff for quite a while, trying to convince my folks to try it and also my freind on his 28 footer, without any success yet (both are after the traditional look). I really like the look of the boat but can't help my self from making a few minor modififications to the rig (you did ask :)), I shifted the masts slightly foward and spaced them slightly wider apart, mostly for asthetics but this enabled a slightly less tall skinny main with its twist problems and enabled me to brace the main tabernackle off the pilothouse. Also note the foremast gooseneck braces. See the up loaded file Both the main and the foresail were made identical to make them interchangable. the roach was removed, no need for it on a gaffer (athough a few full battens made out of condut pipe work well to reduce the flogging and help it stow nice). The clew of each sail has been raised to reduce the dreaded 'droopy boom' syndrome. I still like two reefs in each sail, changing to a trysail in a hurry is a real pain, especally in a squall or front, when you know it will only be for an hour or so. as long as the gaff is contained by twin topping lifts I haven't found it to be a proplem in a blow, more of a pain in light sloppy stuff. Saying that the trysail is great for longer blows. Traditionally alot of schooners hove to (forereached?) under double reefed fores'l. For light airs a big fishermans is the powerhouse, but I couldn't resist drawing in a main topsail to fill in the gap up there, they are acually very easy to put up and down, and while up cause no trouble at all being complely self tending and trimmed by the main sheet. probably a nicely tapering pole mast is the best bet athough a separate topmast would look nice, and reduces the mast overhang for the canals. The only problem with the separate topmast being the main triatic getting in the way of the fisherman, making it harder to tack, with a pole mast the triatic can go right to the top. Of course the main mast can be shorter, with a lower fisherman and no topsail (boring but easy, but a decent yard topsail could still be rigged for real light stuff :). I heard that a few of the old freedoms had problems with the pocketluff binding, but wharram doesn't seem to. I supose the reasons are no taper to the mast, shorter luffs, no boom putting tension on the lower section of pocket luff (even worse with a wishbone) and a gaff to slacken the upper section of pocket and help push the sail down. If it was a problem it would be possible to slit the lower section of pocket with a zig zag lacing rigged to slacken the pocket when the luff wasn't tight, same idea as the laced on hanks on the lower section on boomed staysails. If the pocket luff really was a pain it would be easy to modify it so as the whole pocket could be split, opened up 6 inches and laced. Getting the sail shape with luff round becomes interesting with a pocketluff! make sure lowering the peak of the gaff will slacken off the top section of luff. Harder to fit full length battens but with no roach there is also no compression, 3/4 battens running to the pocket should be fine. The vang on the fores'l is good, I now run them along the gaff, through a block at the throat and then down to deck at the foremast, this makes them more or less self tending when you raise or lower the sail, also they are less inclined to go slack, drop into the cockpit and then tighten like a big noose on someone in sloppy conditions. This was developed by accident after the vang on the 'maid' clove hitched itself up the top of the mizzen in a rising gale, our "improved" system was designed to enable us to still drop the main if this ever happened again, we found out all the benefits afterwards. The wharrams have an awesome staying base, you'll have to watch the shroud angles and unsupported panel carefully, especailly without a keel stepped mast. A strong high tabernackle will help (especaily if stiffened with struts). Expect some whipping in the mast, by way of comparision "nz maids" masts have about a 36 foot panel length and are 7.5 inchs round (made from 4 pieces of 4x4 oregon). they move a bit at times, and get a slighty wobble in 50 knots (at anchor in these conditions we used to cross lines from the mast out to the stays to stop it. The dutch Botters and stuff seem to get away with it with no worrys. The low pilot house looks great. Cheers Ben| 5974|22|2004-10-25 01:29:48|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /wing schooner rig.jpg Uploaded by : benandbernie2000 Description : my thoughts You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/wing%20schooner%20rig.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, benandbernie2000 | 5975|22|2004-10-25 02:10:47|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Deckhouse12.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ for 16 deckdouse pics You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Deckhouse12.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 5976|5964|2004-10-25 02:21:20|Puck III|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|I think you should raise the height of the deckhouse to see something in front of the bow , I just posted a file and a new pic in Photos but you will fing 16 special deckhousepics in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ photos estheticaly my favorite are the vertical windows :-) keep on designing :-) I wanne see the interiour layout Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, > It's 'sink the boat' the time, or at least sink the idea..:) > > I've just uploaded a very rough draft I've cobbled together depicting > my idea for a Swain 42 Pilot House Schooner. > > I'd like to ask anyone interested to take a look at the drawing and > give me the benefit (good or bad) of their thoughts on what they see. > > Now some explanation. I'm going to build next year. I'm 6'4 and need > some headroom. I'm trying to adapt Brent's 40 to a workable schooner > rig. When you look at the drawing, here's what you're seeing and why. > > First, I've tried to extend it out a couple of feet and basically the > drawing is ROUGHLY to scale. Uses of the boat are anywhere in the > world, any weather, BUT for sure its going to spend time on the > european canals, thus bilge keels and Masts set in tabernacles such > that they can be self lowered and raised. Not pictured are the gallows > and crutches that they will set on. > > The rig is a highly modified gaff schooner, set up with Wharram soft > 'wing sails'. These wrap around a smooth round mast (i'm planning on > using aluminum pipe) and thus eliminate track, hoops, and all that > 'stuff'. There are no spreaders, the rig is stayed directly just > above the gaff jaws and to the top of the mast. There are also no > 'topmasts' or topsails EXCEPTING, the ability to fly a Fisherman > (which you can see if you look closely) or a Golly Wobbler for extreme > light air 'foolin around'.:) > > All sails are 'loosefooted' for shape (tho it doesn't look like it in > the drawing) which means I can use lighter, smaller booms as they > perform more like struts. > > As drawn the rig is self tending with main, foresail, and staysail > boomed or on a club. There are two different ways to go on the jib. I > can use either a big Genoa on roller furling out there such that when > light winds prevail I can just roll it out for instant power or leave > it rolled up letting the largish staysail handle things in moderate > weather. > > My thoughts are to roller furl both headsails so reefing/dousing sail > is something that happens from the cockpit instead of the foredeck. > > With normal sail up, genny rolled, the boat will tack thru by just > throwing the helm over, making close manuevering under sail as easy as > it gets for a single hander. > > Total sail area of the four lowers will be in excess of 1000. sq. ft > so she should have good power in moderate winds. Plus its down lower > and spread out so the heeling effect will be minimized. > > I've only drawn in one reef since in my experience, when dealing with > gaffs, if it takes more than one, bring the whole thing down and > secure it and go to trysails. You don't want to be fooling with gaffs, > no matter how light, in any kind of a blow. > > In that regard, once the wharram rig comes down its a trivial matter > to toss up a trisail or two. > > For downwind work I can wing and wing, pole out the genny and/or fly > mules from the masts. That will require some experimentation but I > think the flexibility in the rig will lend itself to pretty much the > normal conditions one sees. The foretriangle is large and should > provide good power to windward. I don't expect to be able to point > with the Bermuda rigged boats, but I never cared much for thrashing to > weather hard on the wind anyway :) Hard on the boat, hard on the rig, > hard on me :) > > sprit will carry two anchors slung beneath it on their own rollers. > I've already posted my thoughts on the windlass setup. > > My basic layout thoughts are this. In the extreme forward peak, the > windlass 'well', and under that miscellaneous sail and other light, > but voluminous 'stuff'. > Aft of that, the forward head, small compact, sit on the head for a > shower type thing. > Aft of that to port a 'cozy' cabin containing a settee 'study', with > folddown table. The settee slides out to make a double berth, the > foot of which extends aft under the dinette 'thing' in the PH. > > To Starboard, a. first option, a 'workbench' type area where sails can > be mended with the on board sewing machine, a vice, tools, spares, > lots of light. Just a place to work on 'stuff'.. or b. second option > another sea berth/settee/reading area the back of wich swings up to > make a pipe berth above, and sea berth below. > > It may be that I'll have room to do both, making the settee somewhat > shorter than the usual 6.5 ft. > > In the PH, Starboard side, an inside steering station with revolving > captains chair that swings around in a 'U' which has the instruments, > comm gear, radar, chart table etc. > > on Port, 'Cozy dinette, sitting/ card playing/ viewing area > immediately aft of which is a compact but full function galley. > > AFt of the Captains chair 'complex' is the step down to the master > cabin in the aft quarter which extends to midline under the shallow > cockpit.(i don't like deep aft cockpits on a blue water boat). > This is no giant 'great cabin' but spacious enough so that you can > extend your legs aft and be comfortable. A small vanity/desk just > forward of the berth so you can sit on the bed and use the desk etc. > > Ok, somewhere in here I have to stick a second head/shower. either in > the space immediately behind the inside steering station, i.e. just > forward of the aft cabin, or, on the port side down and aft of the > galley. Havn't mocked this up yet so still to be decided. > > Ok, back on deck you see the portlights that ventilate the aft cabin, > the cockpit is slightly forward of a flat rear deck (lazarette) and > just barely long enough for normal people to sleep in should they want. > > On this rig the halyards all run down inside the 'pocket' formed by > the wrap around sail, so I'm thinking simple reel winches on the mast. > This rig has been flown on a number of 60 footers with nothing but > blocks but in order to keep the amount of 'string' reasonable, the > reel winches make the most sense to me. > > Ok thats basically it. > > Fire away :) > > seer > b. | 5977|5958|2004-10-25 13:31:04|jim dorey|Re: [ Jim Dorey's Lesh Rotor|On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:00:02 -0400 (EDT), SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Jim mentioned a 'Lesh Rotor' that was old technology. > He mentioned a dual powered boat wind/diesel. I've had > a couple of those, Ketch w/ a perkins 4.108... > > Seriously tho, what's a Lesh Rotor & how's it work? > > Cheers, Shane i believe the link i posted(i think i linked) showed what it was, but there's an easy explanation. toss a ruler in the air, when it falls it's rarely going to just slam into the ground, it'll spin along the long axis, stick a rod on the end, maybe to a transmission or generator, the wind will spin it. it's better than sails in at least one way, you can go directly into the wind and still be propelled. i don't know how developed the tech became, these odd devices and ways often work better than the way it's been done for centurys, much like comparing origami boats to framed boats, for many it's a better way. i don't suppose anybody here's tried wingsails either. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 5978|5978|2004-10-25 22:44:26|prairiemaidca|transmissions|Hi All Prairie Maid needs a transmission. Can anyone advise us as to places in the lower mainland or Vancouver Island, BC where we can look at various possibilities for a suitable transmission? Any suggestions as to makes or models that are suitable for a Swain 36? Websites, dealers, etc. Martin & Betty Forster (Prairie Maid)| 5979|5978|2004-10-25 23:43:13|Richard Till|Re: transmissions|Martin, what type are you looking for? rt >From: "prairiemaidca" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] transmissions >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:44:09 -0000 > > >Hi All > >Prairie Maid needs a transmission. Can anyone advise us as to places >in the lower mainland or Vancouver Island, BC where we can look at >various possibilities for a suitable transmission? Any suggestions >as to makes or models that are suitable for a Swain 36? Websites, >dealers, etc. > >Martin & Betty Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft� SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN� Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.| 5980|5978|2004-10-26 00:28:17|Graeme|Re: transmissions|Who was looking to build a cat or tri ............i have had a idea ....well maybe a lame assed one but still a idea lol You can buy ali diamonds pretty cheap from $1500 to $ 2500 with all the rigging and gear.......... 30ft cat for around $5000 .....you would still have to build a cabin or a spray dodger depending on where you where going and what sort or creature comforts thatb you require..........tropics or cold climate Graeme -----Original Message----- From: Richard Till [mailto:tillrc@...] Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2004 11:42 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] transmissions Martin, what type are you looking for? rt >From: "prairiemaidca" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] transmissions >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:44:09 -0000 > > >Hi All > >Prairie Maid needs a transmission. Can anyone advise us as to places >in the lower mainland or Vancouver Island, BC where we can look at >various possibilities for a suitable transmission? Any suggestions >as to makes or models that are suitable for a Swain 36? Websites, >dealers, etc. > >Martin & Betty Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented MicrosoftR SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU =http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSNR Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 5981|5978|2004-10-26 09:20:33|fenixrises|Re: transmissions|Martin, On E-Bay there are often used and or rebuilt Borg-Warners. Borg-Warners are very strong and suitable for sailboat auxiliaries but you need to find one with the proper ratio. The units are long because the reverse gear is added to the back end of the transmission. The do require the lub oil to be cooled. Older 71 series can have 2.91:1 ratio and the newer 72 series as well. For sailboat auxiliaries I recommend 3:1 ratio or as close as you can get. Do not know if prices posted on this site are currently valid. http://www.simplicity-marine.com/Hurth-ZF.htm You would probably need at least a 150 series though the 250 series is only a few dollars more. These transmissions also come with option for external fluid cooling, recommended. Fred "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi All > > Prairie Maid needs a transmission. Can anyone advise us as to places > in the lower mainland or Vancouver Island, BC where we can look at > various possibilities for a suitable transmission? Any suggestions > as to makes or models that are suitable for a Swain 36? Websites, > dealers, etc. > > Martin & Betty Forster (Prairie Maid) | 5982|5964|2004-10-26 10:43:00|shirleipmendes|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Seer, Nice design. Thanks for share it. Two comments: 1) front cabin windows i prefer vertical ones, avoid sun reflections, internal lights glare and collect less rainwater. 2) Concerning to the mast size and sail areas the correct answer will come from the coeff Sail Area/ Displacement, Sail Area / Wetted Surface, Center of Effort (CE), desirade lead and stability. Cheers, Roger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5983|22|2004-10-26 12:26:34|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Trismus1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : mild steel Meta since 1974 on Tuamotu archipel You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Trismus1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 5984|5964|2004-10-26 13:29:51|seeratlas|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Roger, Thanks for the comments, I've swapped out the previous drawing with a slightly revised one, Regarding the windows, I understand your preference, and am torn between two considerations. First, green water shipping over the bow smacking head on into vertical windows is NOT a 'good' thing. Second, slightly laid back windows give me a better view of the headsails, not to mention the sky, from inside the pH. Of course, all you say about reflections etc. is valid, I hope to find an angle that moderates those problems, and further moderate those effects by a slight visor PH top, much like Gord has incorporated into his design. If I was doing a trawler I'd go with Brent's recommended reverse slant which really makes the most sense of all, and may go that way in any event, despite my difficulty in trying to make it 'look' right on this sailing boat. Of course you are right on the calcs ruling all LOL. However, comparing the general stats with those of existing boats of similar dimensions, gives me a basis upon which to make a guesstimate that something like what I've drawn can work. :) AND, it's been my experience (confirmed by several designers) that the calcs are all well and good, but as Dudley Dix says, you really don't know what you have in the way of stability till you throw a line to the top mast of the boat in the water and try and pull her over on her side. LOL. As the design gets firmed up, I'll be able to calculate more precisely what is going to happen. One thing to remember about tenderness and the bilge keel boats, Brent has designed his bilge keel boats to optimize out at near 25 degrees of heel. Also, as I noted earlier, with a well rigged gaff rig, it is possible to spill a lot of air and depower the rig to compensate for variable conditions, i.e. the sail can be shaped to suit the conditions far more than your average bermuda sail. Also, I forgot to mention in response to an earlier post on the desire for a single reef point other than two, that, I have designed my first reef to be substantially 'deeper' than would be the case on a double reefed sail. This combined with the flexible rig, gives me a wide range of adjustment before I have to douse the sail completely. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shirleipmendes" wrote: > Seer, > > Nice design. Thanks for share it. > Two comments: 1) front cabin windows i prefer vertical ones, avoid sun reflections, internal lights glare and collect less rainwater. > 2) Concerning to the mast size and sail areas the correct answer will come from the coeff Sail Area/ Displacement, Sail Area / Wetted Surface, Center of Effort (CE), desirade lead and stability. > > Cheers, > > Roger > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5985|22|2004-10-26 13:34:42|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's Swain 42 Schooner/M42wingschoon6.bmp Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : Prelim drawings of Swain 42 WingSchooner You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20Swain%2042%20Schooner/M42wingschoon6.bmp To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 5986|5964|2004-10-26 13:57:16|Gerd|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Seer, that looks very nice, but at first glance I guess that your CE moves quite a lot aft compared to the original - you might want to check that out and make sure that you can go ahead without having to change the lateral plan - moving the keels around is certainly not an easy option ;-) For the forward windows: to watch the sails you could place a small hatch just above your steering seat to get a real good view. Gerd the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 5988|5988|2004-10-26 14:42:45|seeratlas|Engines, Engines and Engines|I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines people are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel that turned out to work just fine. Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels that look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw seawater. I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already done the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get that at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a car/truck/tractor diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably forseeable ones with me. as always, thanks in advance. seer| 5989|5964|2004-10-26 15:15:46|seeratlas|Re: My proposed Swain Schooner|Gerd, Thanks for the comments. First the hatch, yep, I'm going with what a lot of folks have done and following their lead, especially Gord's. I'll have a hatch big enough so that when I stand up from my raised captains station, my head will pop up through the cabin top and i can see pretty much anything :). Regarding the ce, its a relatively easy thing to calculate the ce and clp however, that doesn't guarantee you get what you want as those numbers are calculated from paper and as I've remarked before, you choose whether to sail the "paper" i.e. map, chart, calcs; or, you sail the ocean and see what really happens. :) The problem is that the ce is a fluid, not a static thing. As the boat moves, the ce moves, as the sails are trimmed, changed etc. the ce moves, and sometimes moves all over the place. Same with the clp, (center of lateral plane for us physics noobs :) Maybe Brent will jump in here as he has more experience with his hull shape and rig than anyone, and bottom line, that's what counts. Generally speaking a few degrees worth of weather helm is a desirable thing, as you release the tiller and the boat slow rounds up. If you have lee helm, all sorts of bad things can happen in a hurry, most notably, you can't tack, you wear yourself out sweating the tiller, and if she gets loose, you're looking a a rig wrenching jibe in a hurry. Since these things all vary with wind speed, boat speed, angle to or off the wind, and angle of heal, even load distribution in the boat so... there's no easy exact fix, best you can do is try and get close. :) I've got some leeway in the rig as I can still shave the main, add more peak to the gaffs etc. but we'll keep on keepin on till I get to a point that I can get a rough guesstimate :) I've been spending a lot of time looking at old gaff rigs in profile, real vessels that really sail and have done so with some degree of speed and success. Any schooner is going to have to a ce somewhat aft of a sloop or cutter, however, there sure were an awful lot of successful sailing schooners. One thing about an overabundance of weather helm, its not fast yet some of them were so fast that their overlapping rigs were banned from racing and most any reasonably rigged schooner can still get some 'scoot' happening off the wind:) I'll just have to keep 'working it' till I can get some idea of where I'll stand before starting the build. Lastly, as for fooling with the lateral plane, well the only real option there is fooling with the skeg, but I'll do my best to avoid that as I want to try and avoid pizz'n off the designer :) heheh. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Seer, that looks very nice, but at first glance I guess that your CE > moves quite a lot aft compared to the original - you might want to > check that out and make sure that you can go ahead without having to > change the lateral plan - moving the keels around is certainly not > an easy option ;-) > For the forward windows: to watch the sails you could place a small > hatch just above your steering seat to get a real good view. > > Gerd > > the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 5990|5978|2004-10-26 15:55:37|richytill|Re: transmissions|Martin, I have a couple of rebuilt Borg Warner 71C's here in Sechelt. Up in Stettler right now. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > > Martin, > > On E-Bay there are often used and or rebuilt Borg-Warners. > > Borg-Warners are very strong and suitable for sailboat auxiliaries > but you need to find one with the proper ratio. The units are long > because the reverse gear is added to the back end of the > transmission. The do require the lub oil to be cooled. Older 71 > series can have 2.91:1 ratio and the newer 72 series as well. > > For sailboat auxiliaries I recommend 3:1 ratio or as close as you can > get. > > Do not know if prices posted on this site are currently valid. > > http://www.simplicity-marine.com/Hurth-ZF.htm > > You would probably need at least a 150 series though the 250 series > is only a few dollars more. These transmissions also come with option > for external fluid cooling, recommended. > > Fred > > > "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > > > Hi All > > > > Prairie Maid needs a transmission. Can anyone advise us as to > places > > in the lower mainland or Vancouver Island, BC where we can look at > > various possibilities for a suitable transmission? Any suggestions > > as to makes or models that are suitable for a Swain 36? Websites, > > dealers, etc. > > > > Martin & Betty Forster (Prairie Maid) | 5991|5988|2004-10-26 16:27:45|denis buggy|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|dear seer the old 2.4+300 d engines in the 123 series cars were simple and reliable I owned both a 2.4 and a 300 d. however my present car is a 124 series 300d which does 40mpg compared top the old 300d which only did 21 mpg and I have replaced the vacuum operated valve for fuel shut off twice and all the cam followers + waterpump once injector pump once and injectors twice in 140,000 miles . I am told the engine is good for 500,000 if you keep it cool and it does have oil sprayed/cooled pistons . however I would prefer a industrial engine with cast iron head ,lower revs and less complex engine dressing and a simple injector pump . the old 300 d will not start on a cold day with one heater plug faulty out of five as it is indirect injection however if started will soldier loyally for many years . a direct injection engine from a generator or air compressor will start easier and have a dedicated simple instrument panel which you can move to your chosen spot and its fuel pump will be set to react to load on the engine. you can also fit a Murphy switch gauge US MADE which we have on all our buses this has a simple gold contact on a adjustable arm which you can set at any temperature we set at 100 and when the gauge needle touches it makes a circuit and will set off a simple car horn or light if you wish fed through a relay and it has saved us many thousands of euros we must place the horn where the genius will not pull the wires off and will find the noise un bearable and must stop ,it will let you sleep with a novice steering your boat . you must match the engine to your prop firstly as the dimensions of your prop cannot change you can only buy a three blade or four blade and you can change everything else to match this however the prop end of things must be advised by a person better than I and then you power your correctly chosen prop for your hull design with the correct revs and bhp not the other way round . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Engines, Engines and Engines I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines people are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel that turned out to work just fine. Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels that look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw seawater. I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already done the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get that at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a car/truck/tractor diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably forseeable ones with me. as always, thanks in advance. seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5992|5988|2004-10-26 16:50:47|fenixrises|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|Hi seer, Years ago Ford/Lehman made a marinized version of a Ford tractor diesel. I think it was about 200 cubic inches and rated at 60hp. That may not seem like much but this particular engine had a factory option for a 200lb flywheel. This massive flywheel made the engine very smooth and evened out the power output significantly. I know of two different Roberts 55' 45,000lb boats that used these engines and said they worked great with plenty of power using a Borg-Warner Velvet Drive 2.91:1 transmission. For a 42' boat this is probably more power than you need but an old tractor motor of this type may be inexpensive and easy to find. I think a good old Perkins 4-108 would work very well and there are 1,000s floating around all over the world. Fred "seeratlas" wrote: > > I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines people > are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that > they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel that > turned out to work just fine. > > Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there > not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels that > look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats > are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw > seawater. > > I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already done > the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with > replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. > > I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get that > at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a car/truck/tractor > diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. > > Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide > port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably > forseeable ones with me. > > as always, thanks in advance. > > seer | 5993|5988|2004-10-26 17:27:10|Puck III|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|I have seen many cardiesel and truckdieselconversions working for years day afther day on african fisherboats, the worst for those engines is to stay unused for months :-) , see the file dieselengine conversions in Files , the most important is to choose the correct propeller with the reduction. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines people > are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that > they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel that > turned out to work just fine. > > Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there > not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels that > look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats > are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw > seawater. > > I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already done > the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with > replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. > > I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get that > at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a car/truck/tractor > diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. > > Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide > port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably > forseeable ones with me. > > as always, thanks in advance. > > seer | 5994|5988|2004-10-26 17:33:50|Michael Casling|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|I got a 2 1/2 litre Nissan for $600- from a wrecker in Abbortsford BC. It has a gear driven camshaft and makes a lot of torque which for me made it more prefferred than the Isuzu with less power or the VW which was a lot more $$. Have not run it yet so this is all theory at the moment. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Engines, Engines and Engines I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines people are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel that turned out to work just fine. Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels that look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw seawater. I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already done the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get that at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a car/truck/tractor diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably forseeable ones with me. as always, thanks in advance. seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5995|5988|2004-10-26 17:39:48|Courtney Thomas|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|As a reference point, I got a Perkins 4-108 with transmission, both in excellent condition, for $1800 from Ebay. HTH Courtney fenixrises wrote: > > Hi seer, > > Years ago Ford/Lehman made a marinized version of a Ford tractor > diesel. I think it was about 200 cubic inches and rated at 60hp. That > may not seem like much but this particular engine had a factory > option for a 200lb flywheel. This massive flywheel made the engine > very smooth and evened out the power output significantly. I know of > two different Roberts 55' 45,000lb boats that used these engines and > said they worked great with plenty of power using a Borg-Warner > Velvet Drive 2.91:1 transmission. For a 42' boat this is probably > more power than you need but an old tractor motor of this type may be > inexpensive and easy to find. > > I think a good old Perkins 4-108 would work very well and there are > 1,000s floating around all over the world. > > Fred > > > > "seeratlas" wrote: > >>I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines >> > people > >>are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that >>they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel >> > that > >>turned out to work just fine. >> >>Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there >>not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels >> > that > >>look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats >>are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw >>seawater. >> >>I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already >> > done > >>the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with >>replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. >> >>I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get >> > that > >>at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a >> > car/truck/tractor > >>diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. >> >>Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide >>port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably >>forseeable ones with me. >> >>as always, thanks in advance. >> >>seer >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 5996|5988|2004-10-26 17:53:30|Gordon Schnell|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|I've been lurking this engine discussion. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth (or less). I got a VW 1.6l turbo diesel complete with clutch, tranaxle and instrument panel for $550. Considered that to be a score. Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5997|5978|2004-10-26 18:29:17|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: transmissions|Dumd question # 101... Boats and harbors lists some engines and trans. Sometimes they describe trans as #3 or #4 or #5. Are those numbers related to what engines they fit or what? How does somebody match a trans and a engine? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 5998|5988|2004-10-26 19:26:09|seeratlas|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|Ahhhhh, :) Now I know where that shaft driving your accessory complex is coming from. Gord, Did you rebuild that engine? At first glance I thought it was new. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > I've been lurking this engine discussion. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth (or less). I got a VW 1.6l turbo diesel complete with clutch, tranaxle and instrument panel for $550. Considered that to be a score. > Gord > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 5999|5988|2004-10-26 19:28:23|seeratlas|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|Michael, I've heard nothing but good things about that Nissan from the Aussie 4x4 guys I know. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I got a 2 1/2 litre Nissan for $600- from a wrecker in Abbortsford BC. It has a gear driven camshaft and makes a lot of torque which for me made it more prefferred than the Isuzu with less power or the VW which was a lot more $$. Have not run it yet so this is all theory at the moment. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:42 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Engines, Engines and Engines > > > > I know there's been some discussion about what kind of engines people > are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded that > they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel that > turned out to work just fine. > > Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out there > not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck diesels that > look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain boats > are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with raw > seawater. > > I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already done > the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with > replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. > > I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to get that > at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a car/truck/tractor > diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. > > Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about worldwide > port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably > forseeable ones with me. > > as always, thanks in advance. > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 6000|5988|2004-10-26 19:31:46|seeratlas|Re: Engines, Engines and Engines|Ben, My initial thinking is to go with a BIG two bladed stainless prop so I can hide it behind the skeg for efficient sailing. I figure I'll spin it REAL slow with a 3/1 gear reduction and look for a diesel that doesn't have to rev up too much to get enough torque to turn it. I'll check out your list. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > I have seen many cardiesel and truckdieselconversions working > for years day afther day on african fisherboats, the worst for > those engines is to stay unused for months :-) , see the file > dieselengine conversions in Files , the most important is to > choose the correct propeller with the reduction. > Old Ben > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I know there's been some discussion about what kind of > engines people > > are contemplating. I was wondering if anyone ever concluded > that > > they'd found a rebuilt old generator, or tractor, or auto diesel > that > > turned out to work just fine. > > > > Seems to me that there are ton of Mercedes 2.4's and 3.0's out > there > > not to mention the isuzu, nissan and mitsu car and truck > diesels that > > look like pretty good alternatives. ESPECIALLY when the swain > boats > > are using the skeg cooler setup so you don't have to fool with > raw > > seawater. > > > > I'm just starting to explore this avenue so if anyone has already > done > > the research I'd appreciate hearing from you. An engine with > > replaceable wet sleeves would seem ideal. > > > > I'm going to need about 45 to 60 continuous and would like to > get that > > at 1800 to 2400 rpm which tells me I'm looking for a > car/truck/tractor > > diesel road rated at something like 75 hp or better. > > > > Again, any thoughts appreciated. I'm not too worried about > worldwide > > port availability of spares as I plan on taking the reasonably > > forseeable ones with me. > > > > as always, thanks in advance. > > > > seer |