7001|6694|2005-02-26 20:49:45|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Boating Lights|Jim .....Thanks. The bulbs I have are rated at 1.8 volts. Two bulbs function with a 65 ohm resistor and the circuit draws .13 amps using 12.6 volts. If you do the math then 7 bulbs should work. You run the risk of one blowing and the other 6 will not work. From what Jim tells us they last almost forever. If you do that math you would divide 7 into almost forever to find out the life of one bulb. That comes out to longer than I would need them. So where I'm I going wrong? Gerald| 7002|6694|2005-02-26 21:46:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Boating Lights|Gerald, You could also parallel each LED with a high value resistor. Most of the current will pass through the LED. If an LED fails the resistor will still supply a small amount of current to the other LEDs and they will light dimly. It will them be easy to identify the bad one. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 8:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boating Lights > > > Jim .....Thanks. > The bulbs I have are rated at 1.8 volts. Two bulbs function with a 65 > ohm resistor and the circuit draws .13 amps using 12.6 volts. If you > do the math then 7 bulbs should work. You run the risk of one blowing > and the other 6 will not work. From what Jim tells us they last > almost forever. If you do that math you would divide 7 into almost > forever to find out the life of one bulb. That comes out to longer > than I would need them. So where I'm I going wrong? > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7003|7003|2005-02-27 20:51:05|audeojude|Watermaker article|Is anybody out there has built any type of home made water maker willing to write it up and contribute it to my website? http://www.buildingyourboat.com It will be available to anyone registered or unregistered to read there. The site is not a forum but a wanna be boat building encyclopedia where I am starting to collect detailed information on building boats and boat systems. There isn't much there now but I'm slowly organizing a structure that I hope to fill in. Contributions from others are encouraged. All inforation that is submitted to the site is free to anyone with a internet connection :) no registration necassary. However I would warn people not to submit information that is propriatary or copyrighted. The license that submissions will be under is posted on the site. It is designed to help create a body of documentation that is permanatly and legally available for free to the world. You can register and post to the site directly or you can email me at scott@... actually if you have any other areas of boat building you would like to contribute information about it is all welcome. Again it isn't a forum and not intended to compete with the forums here but to simply be a organized repository of boatbuilding information. lol.... Brent is the only one that is excluded from this invitation as he has his design in his book and I don't expect him to put it out there for free on my site.| 7004|7004|2005-02-27 21:09:48|jnikadie|Meeting with Alex and Brent|On Saturday my wife and I were fortunate enough to have the opportunity to see two boats under construction (although the construction of one has stalled), six boats in the water, and talk to Alex and Brent. Unfortunately I kinda squandered the opportunity of asking Brent questions ... Alex is quite knowledgeable on the subject of Brent's designs (at least to the depth that I was able to comprehend at this stage of the learning curve) ... I had enough trouble digesting the wealth of information Alex provided. Alex also gave us a sneak preview of the video he is putting together on the process ... very impressive ... he still has some shots to capture, and a lot of editing to do, but there is so much there and the quality of his cinematography is quite professional (although he might need to add some voice-overs during the post-production work ... his naration from behind a welding mask sounds like, well, that he's behind a welding mask!). We didn't get home until after 1:00am, and I then spent a couple of hours reading Brent's book (which I had purchased from him during the day) before I finally hit the sack. I'm now keener than ever to start ...| 7005|7005|2005-03-01 00:01:40|hoss_manes|40ft alum. brent swain|thanks guys,, next question anyone ever move a boat 40ft. on a trailer any distance, with a 3/4 ton truck , 1 1/4 ton truck, can it be done? the boat is 40x12 i called a boat moving company and it costs a bundle of squids, i'm lookin for another option, any suggestions? once again thanks for the support| 7006|7005|2005-03-01 00:26:26|Michael Casling|Re: 40ft alum. brent swain|If the boat is sitting high as in a sailboat with a keel on then the limit for a regular hitch and a 3/4 ton truck is about 6500 pounds of boat, heavier if the trailer is a gooseneck hitch up to about 7500 pounds of boat. Any heavier and it will not work and you exceed the maximum towable GVW of the truck. If the boat is any heavier it is best to get something around a three ton truck. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: hoss_manes To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 9:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 40ft alum. brent swain thanks guys,, next question anyone ever move a boat 40ft. on a trailer any distance, with a 3/4 ton truck , 1 1/4 ton truck, can it be done? the boat is 40x12 i called a boat moving company and it costs a bundle of squids, i'm lookin for another option, any suggestions? once again thanks for the support To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7007|7005|2005-03-01 00:38:02|hoss_manes|40ft alum. brent swain|in transporting this boat will i need permits in every province ,? and since its 12 ft. wide do i need a pilot car , has anyone done this, thanks| 7008|7008|2005-03-01 13:43:37|djackson991|Catamaran Plans|Greetings Group I have been reading for a few weeks and I really appreciate the DIY focus. My wife and I are pondering building a sailboat over the next several years and then turning to a life of cruising. We are almost sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could point me to other sources. Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you start with the hull material an then add the framing? Best Regards Doug Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma www.submarineboat.com| 7009|7008|2005-03-01 14:46:51|tronfixr|Re: Catamaran Plans|My understanding is that 'origami' is the Japanese art of folding paper into figures like birds and such. I believe the 'origami' method of boat building is based around the same idea but with sheets of steel. Mr. Swain makes a very good argument about the strength of his designs based on this construction method as well as the ease of assembly. I find I like his down to earth approach and hope to join in myself! I find I am a convert from the tri-hull obsession to the twin keel... Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "djackson991" wrote: > > Greetings Group > > I have been reading for a few weeks and I really appreciate the DIY > focus. My wife and I are pondering building a sailboat over the next > several years and then turning to a life of cruising. We are almost > sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be > my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I > have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could > point me to other sources. > > Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They > seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you > start with the hull material an then add the framing? > > Best Regards > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat.com | 7010|22|2005-03-01 18:11:09|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /MonoCat2/MONOCAT GRIS IMG1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : fine rendering You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/MonoCat2/MONOCAT%20GRIS%20IMG1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7011|22|2005-03-01 18:12:10|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /MonoCat2/Copie de COQUE DESSOUS COUL.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : http://www.abmarine.fr/ You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/MonoCat2/Copie%20de%20COQUE%20DESSOUS%20COUL.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7012|7008|2005-03-01 18:17:59|denis buggy|Re: Catamaran Plans|dear Doug there are very few plans available for metal cats and many designers /retailers of plans will ridicule any enquiry for steel plans , aluminium has some advantages and if the work is carried out in a very professional way it can be successful , however it seems to be the view of those with experience that the complex stresses of a cat , (2 hulls + 1 or more masts not in the hulls and the frame to hold it all together ) require a high standard of stress management/design and the welding required is not available on an armature level . there are issues regarding electrolysis /corrosion particularly when moored and -plugged in and I have not heard the advise that a aluminium boat has the security of a steel boat in a collision and therefore I could not justify all the trouble and expense and speaking of expense if you check out the test on multihulls world . com of the yapluka 70 a dream aluminium cat page 52 of march April 2005 issue if not on the web. 70 ft it weighs in at 40 tons , it trims weight by using Kevlar and warren however does not sacrifice the sensible use of the huge aluminium crossmembers linking the amas as a fresh water and a sea water Jacuzzi and to run the whole show plasma screens ( yes 3of them ) and all electric winches to trim push button sail requires the constant hum of either 10 or 20 kva gen sets which ever you prefer . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson991 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Catamaran Plans Greetings Group I have been reading for a few weeks and I really appreciate the DIY focus. My wife and I are pondering building a sailboat over the next several years and then turning to a life of cruising. We are almost sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could point me to other sources. Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you start with the hull material an then add the framing? Best Regards Doug Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma www.submarineboat.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7013|7008|2005-03-01 18:35:49|Puck III|Re: Catamaran Plans|Hi Doug , hi Mike , see the 2 pics posted in the new MonoCat2 Folder in Files . http://www.abmarine.fr sure is a fine Link to see some good plan rendering , see also the B-One Moteur in there for the interesting hullform. Abmarine is also Linked in : http://www.navaldesigner.com/ cheap & interesting software allowing unwrapping to Origami In the MonoCat Folder in Files you also find more similar info. More info about Origami Software & Design in general : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrigamiPlyBoatDesign/ Derek Kelsall's KSS method for designing & building Cats in Foam Sandwish or GRP and the Pics in his web-site ( see Links in the Origami Repository Group ) are realy selfexplaining how an Aluminum Cat can be build , frameless or with frames if you care fore them :-) Hope this helps Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tronfixr" wrote: > > My understanding is that 'origami' is the Japanese art of folding > paper into figures like birds and such. > > I believe the 'origami' method of boat building is based around the > same idea but with sheets of steel. > > Mr. Swain makes a very good argument about the strength of his designs > based on this construction method as well as the ease of assembly. I > find I like his down to earth approach and hope to join in myself! > > I find I am a convert from the tri-hull obsession to the twin keel... > > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "djackson991" > wrote: > > > > Greetings Group > > > > I have been reading for a few weeks and I really appreciate the DIY > > focus. My wife and I are pondering building a sailboat over the next > > several years and then turning to a life of cruising. We are almost > > sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be > > my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I > > have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could > > point me to other sources. > > > > Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They > > seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you > > start with the hull material an then add the framing? > > > > Best Regards > > Doug Jackson > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > www.submarineboat.com | 7014|7008|2005-03-01 18:46:35|Puck III|Re: Catamaran Plans|Hi Denis , have a look at : http://www.antoine-islands.com/anglais/index.htm sure no worries on that pretty Aluminum Cat :-) All one needs is a good designer or architect and a builder that knows his business , and you will have many years of troublefree and low-maintenance cruising ahead :-) I hope you all enjoy the pretty pics in Antoine's Web-site . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Doug there are very few plans available for metal cats and many designers /retailers of plans will ridicule any enquiry for steel plans , > aluminium has some advantages and if the work is carried out in a very professional way it can be successful , however it seems to be the view of those with experience that the complex stresses of a cat , (2 hulls + 1 or more masts not in the hulls and the frame to hold it all together ) require a high standard of stress management/design and the welding required is not available on an armature level . > there are issues regarding electrolysis /corrosion particularly when moored and -plugged in and I have not heard the advise that a aluminium boat has the security of a steel boat in a collision and therefore I could not justify all the trouble and expense and speaking of expense if you check out the test on multihulls world . com of the yapluka 70 a dream aluminium cat page 52 of march April 2005 issue if not on the web. > 70 ft it weighs in at 40 tons , it trims weight by using Kevlar and warren however does not sacrifice the sensible use of the huge aluminium crossmembers linking the amas as a fresh water and a sea water Jacuzzi and to run the whole show plasma screens ( yes 3of them ) and all electric winches to trim push button sail requires the constant hum of either 10 or 20 kva gen sets which ever you prefer . regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: djackson991 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 6:43 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Catamaran Plans > > > > Greetings Group > > I have been reading for a few weeks and I really appreciate the DIY > focus. My wife and I are pondering building a sailboat over the next > several years and then turning to a life of cruising. We are almost > sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be > my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I > have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could > point me to other sources. > > Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They > seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you > start with the hull material an then add the framing? > > Best Regards > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat.com > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7015|7008|2005-03-01 19:12:15|Puck III|Re: Catamaran Plans|Hi Doug , I realy could not resist to post your site here : http://www.submarineboat.com/ what a Sub !!! :-) , can I come for some underwater exploring ?? I like you quote Jacques Cousteau in there , I'l bye the Tshirt :-) Jacques Cousteau's latest boat Alcyone ( MonoCat ) has a pic in the MonoCat Folder in this Group With a little help from your friends building that ( Mono ) Cat can't pose any problem for you . Post your design goal and lets go to work , designing I mean :-) Regards from the Old Europe Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "djackson991" wrote: > > Greetings Group > > I have been reading for a few weeks and I really appreciate the DIY > focus. My wife and I are pondering building a sailboat over the next > several years and then turning to a life of cruising. We are almost > sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be > my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I > have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could > point me to other sources. > > Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They > seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you > start with the hull material an then add the framing? > > Best Regards > Doug Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat.com | 7016|7008|2005-03-01 19:43:45|khooper_fboats|Re: Catamaran Plans|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "djackson991" wrote: > We are almost > sure we want a cat in the 40ft neighborhood, and aluminum would be > my choice of material. I am looking for sources of plans or kits. I > have seen the bruceroberts site and I was hoping you folks could > point me to other sources. I think you will find that most designers think aluminum is too heavy for multihull vessels below 50' and I don't think you will find any plans for a 40' cat in anything but composite. I crave a big alloy cat too but I don't think I will end up building one as the Swain method just has too much to recommend it (and if you read enough of boatdesign.net you will get scared of fatigue cracking in alloy, especially thin plate). Crowther draws what I think is the ultimate 50' alloy cat: http://www.crowther.com.au/ The designer claims sternly he will only work with professional builders, however I inquired through a broker (stating specifically that I am a home builder and would never be anything else) and the broker was anxious to send me the plans as soon as I sent along $25K AUD plus shipping. I still haven't recovered from the shock... Peter Kerr is another Australian working in alloy: http://www.qldwide.net.au/~lizard/ Kerr does draw a 13-meter alloy cat which is about 42 feet. Hulls are 4mm material like the Crowther design but the superstructure is 3mm. Make your own judgements. http://www.yapluka.fr/yapluka_us.htm French firm Yapluka makes drop-dead gorgeous alloy cats from 47' but they won't sell you plans (although I believe they will sell you a bare hull). Ian Farrier has drawn his F-41 in composite and that boat has a lot to recommend it if you can abide a glass cat. The design includes an option for 44-foot hulls and a higher cabin if you like. There are a slew of glass cats out there of course, some available as kits (the Schionning kits look tasty). But you didn't ask about glass. =^) > Also could someone give me the definition of an origami boat? They > seem to look like any other boat when done. Is it just that you > start with the hull material an then add the framing? You start with the hull material and then don't add the framing. =^) --Hoop| 7017|7008|2005-03-02 00:28:22|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Catamaran Plans|Thanks y'all There is a lot of review and think about in your replies. So the origami method cannot or has not been applied to catamarans? They all seem to be longitudinals and frames with sheeting. And 4 mm of aluminum for the bottom of a hull seems kind of thin. So when a Naval Architect signs off on a design, what does that mean? Will it survive 4ft of water breaking over the bow? Here in Oklahoma storm shelters get rated on how bad a tornado is that will rip them apart. Isn't there some sort of scale for boats? Or is there at least an international baseline that is used by the Architects use that say "this boat should never be in blue water" etc, etc. And $5000 for plans? I was thinking $500. A Jacuzzi on a cat. That I love! ...but I'd settle for filling the tender with warm water and putting a trolling motor inside. ...keep yer pants on or watch that prop :) And I am not sold on aluminum, it's just the old "stick with what you know" syndrome, and my submarine (which I will likely die in) project is all about aluminum. There is a FRP boat on my self too, it just all looks so sticky and takes so poorly to rocks, logs, etc.. But having spent just a little on the water, I am stuck on a cat. The wife and I are planing a vacation with a couple of days cat sailing this summer, preferably with a couple the routinely cruises on a cat, just so we can be sure. Any volunteers? Thanks again, Doug & Kay Jackson _www.submarineboat.com_ (http://www.submarineboat.com) PS: Old Ben, if you've got what it takes, which is a lack of good sense ;) you'll be welcome aboard my sub anytime. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7018|7008|2005-03-02 02:06:07|dreemer1962|Re: Catamaran Plans|http://www.bodenboatplans.com/sail/details.aspx?id=29| 7019|7008|2005-03-02 10:52:17|Gerd|Re: Catamaran Plans|Doug, there is another cat you might want to check out: The french singer Antoine is cruising and living on a Joubert designed Alloy cat, built in strongal by transmeta. His site is at http://www.antoine- islands.com/francais/antoine/bateaux/bs.htm The boat is 12 tons for 12 meters or so, not really light, but very solid. Antoine was famous in the old hippie dayys in france, then got himself his first boat (a DAMIEN) and then later another smaller one (also Joubert), then this cat. He lives aboard for over 20 years now, making regular, short appearances during the winter in Paris where he wears his flower shirts though half a dozen talkshows for cash and then goes sailing again. Quite a character ;-) Gerd The Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 7020|7008|2005-03-02 12:04:19|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Catamaran Plans|Thank you Gerd Your boat is looking good. Origami may not lend itself well to cats, but I sure like the idea of cutting and welding over glueing. Any idea as to how poorly a 12 m, 12tn cat will preform? Doug In a message dated 3/2/2005 10:12:46 AM Central Standard Time, yago@... writes: Doug, there is another cat you might want to check out: The french singer Antoine is cruising and living on a Joubert designed Alloy cat, built in strongal by transmeta. His site is at http://www.antoine- islands.com/francais/antoine/bateaux/bs.htm The boat is 12 tons for 12 meters or so, not really light, but very solid. Antoine was famous in the old hippie dayys in france, then got himself his first boat (a DAMIEN) and then later another smaller one (also Joubert), then this cat. He lives aboard for over 20 years now, making regular, short appearances during the winter in Paris where he wears his flower shirts though half a dozen talkshows for cash and then goes sailing again. Quite a character ;-) Gerd The Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7021|7008|2005-03-02 13:53:57|seeratlas|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|Years ago i gave considerable thought to how to put a hot tub on a reasonably sized boat. Filling up the dinghy seems a good place to start however out of the water, you run the risk of separating the floor from the main tubes, which i've seen happen on several achilles/zodiac type boats. Water is damned heavy stuff, give some thought as to how much your proposed tub is going to weigh when filled and the deckstructure underneath it. :) However, www.yachtub.com shows a reasonable design way to go, tho incredibly overpriced for the guys who frequent this site. My final design rests around a HUGE innertube from the heavy equiptment industy :) over that I decided to tie a couple of cheap hammocks or other suitable webbing. The rubberized fabric for the 'pool' part is available commercially, whether you want to go the hypalon route, or very heavy vinyl which is incredibly inexpensive. In fact the heavy black sheeting used in agriculture and which you see on the slopes of hillsides in California where they are attempting to divert rain and runoff from the slopes works very well, lasts amazingly long, can be patched with duct tape, and can simply be rolled up, stowed then unrolled and deployed round the tube as required :) The black color also tends to absorb the sun's energy and provide a good base temp from which to increase to your requirements. You can use the same sheeting as a rainwater collection device, a rainproof temporary boat awning etc. The tube also makes a hilarious ride when towed behind the boat or motorized dinghy, just damned fun all the way around. On a big 4x4 trip once, i put some of that sheeting in the bed of my dodge cummins 4x4 1 ton and drove to the top of the mountain trail where we filled the bed with water and had an imprompto pool party :) When the hot, dusty, jeeping college coeds arrived, well seemed they had never thought to bring swimsuits to the top of a desert mountain 4x4 trail, but HEY, :)the innertube floating in the back was just too inviting ...... :) ahhh, gotta love getting out of the city and back to 'nature' :) NExt. regarding these ocean going cats....I hate to run the risk of the eternal debate, but given Brent's twin keelers's near bulletproof design, minisub-like hull strength, low draft, ability to dry out, well, If I was EVER thinking of doing any transocean crossings, it would be darned tough to get me into a cat. I would suggest STRONGLY that before you build one, you go try a passage in rough weather in one. Since the cat rides the very surface of the water, it simply gets too damned rough for me when the seas get up. Slogging to windward in a cat in a blow has to be experienced to be believed, much less trying to tack. Some people like this stuff, and it IS exciting for the first 30 minutes or so... Further, the stresses on the crossmembers, rigging etc. are enormous and the larger the cat, the more the hulls want to 'work' against each other. I'd get the best, most experienced bluewater/ocean crossing cat sailor/designers to at the least consult, at least those who are still alive.... and put a prop in each hull so i could turn the thing in a seaway. I'd also design in an escape hatch in the bottom of each hull for, well, talk to any experienced ocean racing cat skipper.... In the end, when i got out the pencil and bankbook, I wouldn't do it. Now some may say this is a bit 'strong', and I will admit my bias. You see, I once spent all night in a Force 9 and 10 gale off Point Conception trying to triangulate with a Coast Guard Cutter and a Navy Frigate on a stricken cat with family of 5. Dunno who designed it, dunno who built it, didn't know the man who sailed it, and though before his radio lost enough power to do anything but 'click', I spoke to him, I never saw him. All I managed to find were some foam cushions, and a few destroyed composite panels. I have no doubt that a suitable craft can be designed and built, I just question whether it should be. Of course, this wouldn't apply to coastal daysailing or whizzing round the Caribbs where the speed, inches draft requirement, and 'thrill ' of a cat would mitigate deep ocean survivability concerns. If it turns turtle or comes apart and you go into the drink, more likely than not someone will be able to get to you in time. If its in frigid waters such as those off the Pac Northwest, well, I kayak up there and if you're not dressed for it..well people have died a hundred yards off the Mukilteo lighthouse... Oh, and the innertube jacuzzi? :) doesn't have to just sit on the boat you know :) you can launch it over the side , grab a paddle and a couple of sixpacks in a small cooler and take the party ALL around the harbor :) One guy even rigged a small beach umbrella on his. By tilting it he could regulate both his tan and the pool temp in one motion :) hehehe seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@a... wrote: > Thanks y'all > > There is a lot of review and think about in your replies. So the origami > method cannot or has not been applied to catamarans? They all seem to be > longitudinals and frames with sheeting. And 4 mm of aluminum for the bottom of a > hull seems kind of thin. > > So when a Naval Architect signs off on a design, what does that mean? Will > it survive 4ft of water breaking over the bow? Here in Oklahoma storm > shelters get rated on how bad a tornado is that will rip them apart. Isn't there > some sort of scale for boats? Or is there at least an international baseline > that is used by the Architects use that say "this boat should never be in blue > water" etc, etc. And $5000 for plans? I was thinking $500. > > A Jacuzzi on a cat. That I love! ...but I'd settle for filling the tender > with warm water and putting a trolling motor inside. ...keep yer pants on or > watch that prop :) > > And I am not sold on aluminum, it's just the old "stick with what you know" > syndrome, and my submarine (which I will likely die in) project is all about > aluminum. There is a FRP boat on my self too, it just all looks so sticky > and takes so poorly to rocks, logs, etc.. But having spent just a little on > the water, I am stuck on a cat. The wife and I are planing a vacation with a > couple of days cat sailing this summer, preferably with a couple the > routinely cruises on a cat, just so we can be sure. Any volunteers? > > Thanks again, > Doug & Kay Jackson > _www.submarineboat.com_ (http://www.submarineboat.com) > > PS: Old Ben, if you've got what it takes, which is a lack of good sense ;) > you'll be welcome aboard my sub anytime. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7022|7008|2005-03-02 15:22:17|Gerd|Re: Catamaran Plans|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@a... wrote: > > Thank you Gerd > > Your boat is looking good. Origami may not lend itself well to cats, but I > sure like the idea of cutting and welding over glueing. Any idea as to how > poorly a 12 m, 12tn cat will preform? > > Doug > Should be no problem really. You could do some basic cardboard modelling to find out. I think you will find different approaches possible, go for near-cylindrical section in the center and then do cuts from front and back, or do it the way Brent's designs (and my boat) are cut, with the dart in the center. I believe there are many other cuts that could be used. You ight even do a cat with asymetric hulls if you see advantage in that. Te easiest way would be to do a rough copy of some chined cat-hulls and then cut fron the center and see what you get. You could also go for more darts, check out www.origamimacic.com to see what a similar approach will do with 3 darts cut in, one of which comes from the top. Otherwise there should be no significant difference to folding a monohull. If there is anything can help with, drop me a mail. ;-) Gerd| 7023|6644|2005-03-02 19:21:38|dreemer1962|Re: origami ply or Aluminum|Hi Gerd, I'm not after the boat faster then other boats of the same LOA. I'm trying to design boat which would be as fast as possible for the money. One with a very good speed/buck ratio. I would describe my design brief like this: Low cost STEEL boat which can go anywhere sailing very fast, simple to build, handle and maintain, without gadgets, easy to single-handle on passages. I'm satisfied with a level of comfort and payload capacity of the conventional 9 meters, (30 ft) long boat. Given the fact that we are talking displacement speeds here, speed should be searched in the waterline length. Luckily, WL is cheap, just a cost of the steel plate and paint, so I will be generous with it and add 6 meters. 3 meters at the front and 3 meters at the back. For additional security and to help resisting that nasty psychological factor of loading all available space with a (usually heavy) junk, I'll divide it from the living space with watertight bulkheads. (Only some sort of inspection hatch and ventilation). Lightness is essential so every effort will be made to save the weight. It means very light interior, small engine and small fuel tank (enough fuel for about 20 hours motoring), low hull sides, low and short cabin and low load capacity of about 1 to 1.5 tons. But basic scantlings would be conventional. Something like BS 31. "…the wider hull being stiffer against the longitudinal bending and fore-aft mast compression, you might even be able to design it lighter... " I don't think it makes a lot of difference with a steel boats of the size we are contemplating. Wider boat will probably just be even more grossly over strength then narrow one. I could indeed choose to design a wider, shorter boat of the same displacement and achieve similar results, but there are some important differences in the characteristics of the two types which influence my preferences. Longer hull with a sharper bow will heave lower wave making resistance and higher maximum speed. It's very easy driving so it doesn't need a lot of sail area to move. As a wave making resistance grows exponentially with a speed, average speed on passages of the narrow boat will probably be higher then for the shorter, wider, boat of the same displacement. Divided rig will suit the narrow boat nicely. Nice thing about two masts is that individual sails are all small and easily manageable, as on the 9 meters boat. It means that sail handling can be done by weaker crewmembers. Strong, (and expensive), winches wouldn't be needed. It also means that crew wouldn't be exhausted and because of easy handling, boat is more likely to be optimally sailed. (More difficult handling means oftenly sailing below potential of the boat with to little sail area, and earlier reefed). Smaller rigging and sails are also easier for maintenance work. Aesthetically, I'll go for the work boat style. Profile very similar to Pierre Brouns boats as a Southern Cross 32, color scheme - everything outside light gray, everything inside white. By the way, I think that comparing boats on the basis of WL doesn't make much sense, especially if boats are of the different type. It's better to compare their displacement. For sailors with limited budget, it's best to compare their prices. Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > is also 30 percent larger. So, stretched boat, (YAGO 40), sails at > > same or slightly higher speed in light airs, and much faster in > the > > stronger winds. (Longer waterline and sharper bow pushing less > > water). I expect stretched boat to be about 15 to 20 percent more > > expensive. > > Nice drawings.. is there a page 2 where it gets even longer? ;-) > just kidding.. > > more seriously: yes, on priciple you are right, BUT once you have > the longer boat with all the addtional weight for added material and > additional wetted area, you can then increase righting moment and > thus sail carrying ability and comfort A LOT for VERY LITTLE > increment in width and very little penalty in weight or money or > even wetted area! (Actually the wider hull being stiffer against the > longitudinal bending and fore-aft mast compression, you might even > be able to design it lighter... but that does not apply to us > dummies I guess) > > In other words, you have to do 2 things: > > - Design a boat optimized for the type of sailing you have in mind, > and that decides on it's hull shape, > - and then in a second move you decide it to be as light as as you > can make it, for example by keeping freeboard (and CG)low the cabin > and habitable area short and the ends empty. > > I know, your starting point is really "bigger faster boat for not > that much more money", and of course you are right. But if you > compare to another, optimized 40 footer you have to call it "a > slower, narrower boat with less comfort and performance, but then it > also costs a lot less..." ;-) > > So whatever the size, keep it simple, light (we are talking steel > here...), mostly empty and you will get a much faster boat than > anybody else of the same LOA for a lot less money. Width, within > reason, does not enter that much into the equation, the real secret > is weight, and once you have decided on the building method and > material, it's mostly about how high you build and what you put > inside. > > > Keep it up, that's good work and lots of fun ;-) > > Gerd > the YAGO Project at http;://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 7024|7008|2005-03-03 03:41:22|denis buggy|Re: Catamaran Plans|dear doug the only steel cat 12 meter i read about is boden cat s austraila who admit 7 knots is max and do not send money for study plans to these people , steel magnolia 60 ft is for sale for quite a while approx200,000 us I requested figures on her without success , regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: djackson99@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Catamaran Plans Thank you Gerd Your boat is looking good. Origami may not lend itself well to cats, but I sure like the idea of cutting and welding over glueing. Any idea as to how poorly a 12 m, 12tn cat will preform? Doug In a message dated 3/2/2005 10:12:46 AM Central Standard Time, yago@... writes: Doug, there is another cat you might want to check out: The french singer Antoine is cruising and living on a Joubert designed Alloy cat, built in strongal by transmeta. His site is at http://www.antoine- islands.com/francais/antoine/bateaux/bs.htm The boat is 12 tons for 12 meters or so, not really light, but very solid. Antoine was famous in the old hippie dayys in france, then got himself his first boat (a DAMIEN) and then later another smaller one (also Joubert), then this cat. He lives aboard for over 20 years now, making regular, short appearances during the winter in Paris where he wears his flower shirts though half a dozen talkshows for cash and then goes sailing again. Quite a character ;-) Gerd The Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7025|7008|2005-03-03 03:52:42|denis buggy|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|dear seer in the past few weeks a little lady called ellen mc arthur tied up at the quayside in falmouth in a cat after beating the solo round the world record by a day she was asked what was it like and she said it was like doing 40 mph cross country on the roof of a 4x4 for seventy days and nights . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board. Years ago i gave considerable thought to how to put a hot tub on a reasonably sized boat. Filling up the dinghy seems a good place to start however out of the water, you run the risk of separating the floor from the main tubes, which i've seen happen on several achilles/zodiac type boats. Water is damned heavy stuff, give some thought as to how much your proposed tub is going to weigh when filled and the deckstructure underneath it. :) However, www.yachtub.com shows a reasonable design way to go, tho incredibly overpriced for the guys who frequent this site. My final design rests around a HUGE innertube from the heavy equiptment industy :) over that I decided to tie a couple of cheap hammocks or other suitable webbing. The rubberized fabric for the 'pool' part is available commercially, whether you want to go the hypalon route, or very heavy vinyl which is incredibly inexpensive. In fact the heavy black sheeting used in agriculture and which you see on the slopes of hillsides in California where they are attempting to divert rain and runoff from the slopes works very well, lasts amazingly long, can be patched with duct tape, and can simply be rolled up, stowed then unrolled and deployed round the tube as required :) The black color also tends to absorb the sun's energy and provide a good base temp from which to increase to your requirements. You can use the same sheeting as a rainwater collection device, a rainproof temporary boat awning etc. The tube also makes a hilarious ride when towed behind the boat or motorized dinghy, just damned fun all the way around. On a big 4x4 trip once, i put some of that sheeting in the bed of my dodge cummins 4x4 1 ton and drove to the top of the mountain trail where we filled the bed with water and had an imprompto pool party :) When the hot, dusty, jeeping college coeds arrived, well seemed they had never thought to bring swimsuits to the top of a desert mountain 4x4 trail, but HEY, :)the innertube floating in the back was just too inviting ...... :) ahhh, gotta love getting out of the city and back to 'nature' :) NExt. regarding these ocean going cats....I hate to run the risk of the eternal debate, but given Brent's twin keelers's near bulletproof design, minisub-like hull strength, low draft, ability to dry out, well, If I was EVER thinking of doing any transocean crossings, it would be darned tough to get me into a cat. I would suggest STRONGLY that before you build one, you go try a passage in rough weather in one. Since the cat rides the very surface of the water, it simply gets too damned rough for me when the seas get up. Slogging to windward in a cat in a blow has to be experienced to be believed, much less trying to tack. Some people like this stuff, and it IS exciting for the first 30 minutes or so... Further, the stresses on the crossmembers, rigging etc. are enormous and the larger the cat, the more the hulls want to 'work' against each other. I'd get the best, most experienced bluewater/ocean crossing cat sailor/designers to at the least consult, at least those who are still alive.... and put a prop in each hull so i could turn the thing in a seaway. I'd also design in an escape hatch in the bottom of each hull for, well, talk to any experienced ocean racing cat skipper.... In the end, when i got out the pencil and bankbook, I wouldn't do it. Now some may say this is a bit 'strong', and I will admit my bias. You see, I once spent all night in a Force 9 and 10 gale off Point Conception trying to triangulate with a Coast Guard Cutter and a Navy Frigate on a stricken cat with family of 5. Dunno who designed it, dunno who built it, didn't know the man who sailed it, and though before his radio lost enough power to do anything but 'click', I spoke to him, I never saw him. All I managed to find were some foam cushions, and a few destroyed composite panels. I have no doubt that a suitable craft can be designed and built, I just question whether it should be. Of course, this wouldn't apply to coastal daysailing or whizzing round the Caribbs where the speed, inches draft requirement, and 'thrill ' of a cat would mitigate deep ocean survivability concerns. If it turns turtle or comes apart and you go into the drink, more likely than not someone will be able to get to you in time. If its in frigid waters such as those off the Pac Northwest, well, I kayak up there and if you're not dressed for it..well people have died a hundred yards off the Mukilteo lighthouse... Oh, and the innertube jacuzzi? :) doesn't have to just sit on the boat you know :) you can launch it over the side , grab a paddle and a couple of sixpacks in a small cooler and take the party ALL around the harbor :) One guy even rigged a small beach umbrella on his. By tilting it he could regulate both his tan and the pool temp in one motion :) hehehe seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@a... wrote: > Thanks y'all > > There is a lot of review and think about in your replies. So the origami > method cannot or has not been applied to catamarans? They all seem to be > longitudinals and frames with sheeting. And 4 mm of aluminum for the bottom of a > hull seems kind of thin. > > So when a Naval Architect signs off on a design, what does that mean? Will > it survive 4ft of water breaking over the bow? Here in Oklahoma storm > shelters get rated on how bad a tornado is that will rip them apart. Isn't there > some sort of scale for boats? Or is there at least an international baseline > that is used by the Architects use that say "this boat should never be in blue > water" etc, etc. And $5000 for plans? I was thinking $500. > > A Jacuzzi on a cat. That I love! ...but I'd settle for filling the tender > with warm water and putting a trolling motor inside. ...keep yer pants on or > watch that prop :) > > And I am not sold on aluminum, it's just the old "stick with what you know" > syndrome, and my submarine (which I will likely die in) project is all about > aluminum. There is a FRP boat on my self too, it just all looks so sticky > and takes so poorly to rocks, logs, etc.. But having spent just a little on > the water, I am stuck on a cat. The wife and I are planing a vacation with a > couple of days cat sailing this summer, preferably with a couple the > routinely cruises on a cat, just so we can be sure. Any volunteers? > > Thanks again, > Doug & Kay Jackson > _www.submarineboat.com_ (http://www.submarineboat.com) > > PS: Old Ben, if you've got what it takes, which is a lack of good sense ;) > you'll be welcome aboard my sub anytime. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7026|7026|2005-03-03 04:27:22|Mia|999 members - Video Info request|Congralutalations Alex !!!! for your patience :-) hard work , and making this Group a fine place to Lurk anytime . When is the Video be finished ??? Count me in for a Copy :-) Mia| 7027|6644|2005-03-03 07:33:03|Gerd|Re: origami ply or Aluminum|With you all the way, Milan, it shows that you been working on that for a long time - although some details remain open for discussion, the overall concept fits. GO for it, and keep me up to date, ok? ;) would be glad to help where I can... > By the way, I think that comparing boats on the basis of WL doesn't make much sense, especially if boats are of the different type. You could not have said it better, it DOES make sense to do that BECAUSE it will clearly pinpoint the differences between types of boats ;-) Gerd| 7028|7008|2005-03-03 07:57:11|Gerd|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|concerning ellen: 1 - that was not a cat, but a trimaran 2 - if you're racing in the southern oceans, and it's not terribly uncomfortable, then you are probably doing something very wrong... ;- ) 3 - glad you brought her up... what is often not really registered is the fact that a boat that was raced around the world in extreme conditions with an average of what - 14 or 15 knots overall? - could probably not be considered "unseaworthy" just because it's not a one of our ugly tanks built out of steel ... should really make us think from time to time and open our minds - but that for sure is going to bring up a long, heated and healthy debate ;-) Gerd| 7029|7008|2005-03-03 10:34:06|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|Thanks Seer, you make a lot of good points and reinforce one of the reasons I'd like to build from aluminum and not glass. I've read a lot of post about why monhulls are better than cats and visa versa, but I think it really comes down to what kind of sailing you plan on doing. My conclusions thus far are that Cats are great for shallow waters, rivers, and beaches but they need to say away from the roaring 40's and run like hell from tropical storms. I should mention speed too, but I am sacrificing that if I build from aluminum. They also seem to be a good choice for chartering and that is something the wife and I would like to do from time to time. And sailing on a cat for a couple of days is definately on the calander for this summer. Hopefully when a storm is in the Gulf. Thanks again for all of the good advise. Doug & Kay _www.submarineboat.com_ (http://www.submarineboat.com) In a message dated 3/2/2005 1:36:11 PM Central Standard Time, seeratlas@... writes: Years ago i gave considerable thought to how to put a hot tub on a reasonably sized boat. Filling up the dinghy seems a good place to start however out of the water, you run the risk of separating the floor from the main tubes, which i've seen happen on several achilles/zodiac type boats. Water is damned heavy stuff, give some thought as to how much your proposed tub is going to weigh when filled and the deckstructure underneath it. :) However, www.yachtub.com shows a reasonable design way to go, tho incredibly overpriced for the guys who frequent this site. My final design rests around a HUGE innertube from the heavy equiptment industy :) over that I decided to tie a couple of cheap hammocks or other suitable webbing. The rubberized fabric for the 'pool' part is available commercially, whether you want to go the hypalon route, or very heavy vinyl which is incredibly inexpensive. In fact the heavy black sheeting used in agriculture and which you see on the slopes of hillsides in California where they are attempting to divert rain and runoff from the slopes works very well, lasts amazingly long, can be patched with duct tape, and can simply be rolled up, stowed then unrolled and deployed round the tube as required :) The black color also tends to absorb the sun's energy and provide a good base temp from which to increase to your requirements. You can use the same sheeting as a rainwater collection device, a rainproof temporary boat awning etc. The tube also makes a hilarious ride when towed behind the boat or motorized dinghy, just damned fun all the way around. On a big 4x4 trip once, i put some of that sheeting in the bed of my dodge cummins 4x4 1 ton and drove to the top of the mountain trail where we filled the bed with water and had an imprompto pool party :) When the hot, dusty, jeeping college coeds arrived, well seemed they had never thought to bring swimsuits to the top of a desert mountain 4x4 trail, but HEY, :)the innertube floating in the back was just too inviting ...... :) ahhh, gotta love getting out of the city and back to 'nature' :) NExt. regarding these ocean going cats....I hate to run the risk of the eternal debate, but given Brent's twin keelers's near bulletproof design, minisub-like hull strength, low draft, ability to dry out, well, If I was EVER thinking of doing any transocean crossings, it would be darned tough to get me into a cat. I would suggest STRONGLY that before you build one, you go try a passage in rough weather in one. Since the cat rides the very surface of the water, it simply gets too damned rough for me when the seas get up. Slogging to windward in a cat in a blow has to be experienced to be believed, much less trying to tack. Some people like this stuff, and it IS exciting for the first 30 minutes or so... Further, the stresses on the crossmembers, rigging etc. are enormous and the larger the cat, the more the hulls want to 'work' against each other. I'd get the best, most experienced bluewater/ocean crossing cat sailor/designers to at the least consult, at least those who are still alive.... and put a prop in each hull so i could turn the thing in a seaway. I'd also design in an escape hatch in the bottom of each hull for, well, talk to any experienced ocean racing cat skipper.... In the end, when i got out the pencil and bankbook, I wouldn't do it. Now some may say this is a bit 'strong', and I will admit my bias. You see, I once spent all night in a Force 9 and 10 gale off Point Conception trying to triangulate with a Coast Guard Cutter and a Navy Frigate on a stricken cat with family of 5. Dunno who designed it, dunno who built it, didn't know the man who sailed it, and though before his radio lost enough power to do anything but 'click', I spoke to him, I never saw him. All I managed to find were some foam cushions, and a few destroyed composite panels. I have no doubt that a suitable craft can be designed and built, I just question whether it should be. Of course, this wouldn't apply to coastal daysailing or whizzing round the Caribbs where the speed, inches draft requirement, and 'thrill ' of a cat would mitigate deep ocean survivability concerns. If it turns turtle or comes apart and you go into the drink, more likely than not someone will be able to get to you in time. If its in frigid waters such as those off the Pac Northwest, well, I kayak up there and if you're not dressed for it..well people have died a hundred yards off the Mukilteo lighthouse... Oh, and the innertube jacuzzi? :) doesn't have to just sit on the boat you know :) you can launch it over the side , grab a paddle and a couple of sixpacks in a small cooler and take the party ALL around the harbor :) One guy even rigged a small beach umbrella on his. By tilting it he could regulate both his tan and the pool temp in one motion :) hehehe seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@a... wrote: > Thanks y'all > > There is a lot of review and think about in your replies. So the origami > method cannot or has not been applied to catamarans? They all seem to be > longitudinals and frames with sheeting. And 4 mm of aluminum for the bottom of a > hull seems kind of thin. > > So when a Naval Architect signs off on a design, what does that mean? Will > it survive 4ft of water breaking over the bow? Here in Oklahoma storm > shelters get rated on how bad a tornado is that will rip them apart. Isn't there > some sort of scale for boats? Or is there at least an international baseline > that is used by the Architects use that say "this boat should never be in blue > water" etc, etc. And $5000 for plans? I was thinking $500. > > A Jacuzzi on a cat. That I love! ...but I'd settle for filling the tender > with warm water and putting a trolling motor inside. ...keep yer pants on or > watch that prop :) > > And I am not sold on aluminum, it's just the old "stick with what you know" > syndrome, and my submarine (which I will likely die in) project is all about > aluminum. There is a FRP boat on my self too, it just all looks so sticky > and takes so poorly to rocks, logs, etc.. But having spent just a little on > the water, I am stuck on a cat. The wife and I are planing a vacation with a > couple of days cat sailing this summer, preferably with a couple the > routinely cruises on a cat, just so we can be sure. Any volunteers? > > Thanks again, > Doug & Kay Jackson > _www.submarineboat.com_ (http://www.submarineboat.com) > > PS: Old Ben, if you've got what it takes, which is a lack of good sense ;) > you'll be welcome aboard my sub anytime. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' _Click Here!_ (http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/YmoolB/TM) --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7030|6644|2005-03-03 14:57:11|dreemer1962|Re: origami ply or Aluminum|Thanks Gerd, I shall certainly keep you informed, and I shall appreciate critic and advises. "…it wil clearly pinpoint the differences between types of boats…" Yes, you are wright if you look at it that way. Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > With you all the way, Milan, it shows that you been working on that > for a long time - although some details remain open for discussion, > the overall concept fits. GO for it, and keep me up to date, ok? ;) > would be glad to help where I can... > > > By the way, I think that comparing boats on the basis of WL > doesn't make much sense, especially if boats are of the different > type. > > You could not have said it better, it DOES make sense to do that > BECAUSE it will clearly pinpoint the differences between types of > boats ;-) > > Gerd | 7031|7031|2005-03-03 15:48:52|Puck III|Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|> Steve Fosset making History > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > What a Victory !!! > > An example for all . > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > Old Ben | 7032|22|2005-03-03 16:04:34|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /SteveFossett.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/SteveFossett.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7033|7031|2005-03-03 16:29:29|Gerd|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old buggers like us except that they were much better at keeping their dreams alive ;-) I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even if all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get the beer... Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > Steve Fosset making History > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > An example for all . > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > Old Ben | 7034|7008|2005-03-03 18:16:36|seeratlas|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|"she was asked what was it like and she said it was like doing 40 mph cross country on the roof of a 4x4 for seventy days and nights " Not sure if you mean to support me on the lack of comfort or contradict me on my safety concerns about cats in the deep blue:) I may be getting old but that doesn't sound like the way I want to see the world :) I'm glad she made it :) When i was a kid i used to routinely drive a 4spd Pontiac GTO with the 400 tunnelport motor, at triple digit speeds thru the streets and freeways of Southern California. NOt to brag (well i guess it is bragging after all but what the hell, the memory brings me a smile :) but during that time, the local law enforcement authorities totaled 7 and perhaps 8 (couldn't hang around to see) patrol cars in luckily futile acts of pursuit. Over the years i've come to appreciate the more sedate comfort of less intense motoring. Similarly, I once raced small cats, the thrill of knife-edge sailing quickens the pulse, but just as I have chosen other vehicles for long cross country treks (I own a fully restored full house Lincoln with the 472 v-8), sailing to me is now a much more peaceful and serene endeavor, periodically punctuated by moments of sheer terror:). I would like to hear a report about how long the interval is before she again puts to sea in a cat :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear seer in the past few weeks a little lady called ellen mc arthur tied up at the quayside in falmouth in a cat after beating the solo round the world record by a day she was asked what was it like and she said it was like doing 40 mph cross country on the roof of a 4x4 for seventy days and nights . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:25 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board. > > > > Years ago i gave considerable thought to how to put a hot tub on a > reasonably sized boat. Filling up the dinghy seems a good place to > start however out of the water, you run the risk of separating the > floor from the main tubes, which i've seen happen on several > achilles/zodiac type boats. Water is damned heavy stuff, give some > thought as to how much your proposed tub is going to weigh when filled > and the deckstructure underneath it. :) > > > However, www.yachtub.com shows a reasonable design way to go, tho > incredibly overpriced for the guys who frequent this site. > > My final design rests around a HUGE innertube from the heavy > equiptment industy :) > over that I decided to tie a couple of cheap hammocks or other > suitable webbing. The rubberized fabric for the 'pool' part is > available commercially, whether you want to go the hypalon route, or > very heavy vinyl which is incredibly inexpensive. In fact the heavy > black sheeting used in agriculture and which you see on the slopes of > hillsides in California where they are attempting to divert rain and > runoff from the slopes works very well, lasts amazingly long, can be > patched with duct tape, and can > simply be rolled up, stowed then unrolled and deployed round the tube > as required :) The black color also tends to absorb the sun's energy > and provide a good base temp from which to increase to your > requirements. You can use the same sheeting as a rainwater collection > device, a rainproof temporary boat awning etc. The tube also makes a > hilarious ride when towed behind the boat or motorized dinghy, just > damned fun all the way around. > > On a big 4x4 trip once, i put some of that sheeting in the bed of my > dodge cummins 4x4 1 ton and drove to the top of the mountain trail > where we filled the bed with water and had an imprompto pool party :) > When the hot, dusty, jeeping college coeds arrived, well seemed they > had never thought to bring swimsuits to the top of a desert mountain > 4x4 trail, but HEY, :)the innertube floating in the back was just too > inviting ...... :) > ahhh, gotta love getting out of the city and back to 'nature' :) > > NExt. regarding these ocean going cats....I hate to run the risk of > the eternal debate, but given Brent's twin keelers's near bulletproof > design, minisub-like hull strength, low draft, ability to dry out, > well, If I was EVER thinking of doing any transocean crossings, it > would be darned tough to get me into a cat. > > I would suggest STRONGLY that before you build one, you go try a > passage in rough weather in one. Since the cat rides the very surface > of the water, it simply gets too damned rough for me when the seas get > up. Slogging to windward in a cat in a blow has to be experienced to > be believed, much less trying to tack. Some people like this stuff, > and it IS exciting for the first 30 minutes or so... Further, the > stresses on the crossmembers, rigging etc. are enormous and the larger > the cat, the more the hulls want to 'work' against each other. I'd > get the best, most experienced bluewater/ocean crossing cat > sailor/designers to at the least consult, at least those who are still > alive.... > and put a prop in each hull so i could turn the thing in a seaway. I'd > also design in an escape hatch in the bottom of each hull for, well, > talk to any experienced ocean racing cat skipper.... In the end, when > i got out the pencil and bankbook, I wouldn't do it. > > Now some may say this is a bit 'strong', and I will admit my bias. You > see, I > once spent all night in a Force 9 and 10 gale off Point Conception > trying to triangulate with a Coast Guard Cutter and a Navy Frigate on > a stricken cat with family of 5. Dunno who designed it, dunno who > built it, didn't know the man who sailed it, and though before his > radio lost enough power to do anything but 'click', I spoke to him, I > never saw him. All I managed to find were some foam cushions, and a > few destroyed composite panels. > > I have no doubt that a suitable craft can be designed and built, I > just question whether it should be. > > Of course, this wouldn't apply to coastal daysailing or whizzing round > the Caribbs where the speed, inches draft requirement, and 'thrill ' > of a cat would mitigate deep ocean survivability concerns. If it turns > turtle or comes apart and you go into the drink, more likely than not > someone will be able to get to you in time. If its in frigid waters > such as those off the Pac Northwest, well, I kayak up there and if > you're not dressed for it..well people have died a hundred yards off > the Mukilteo lighthouse... > > Oh, and the innertube jacuzzi? :) doesn't have to just sit on the boat > you know :) you can launch it over the side , grab a paddle and a > couple of sixpacks in a small cooler and take the party ALL around the > harbor :) > One guy even rigged a small beach umbrella on his. By tilting it he > could regulate both his tan and the pool temp in one motion :) hehehe > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@a... wrote: > > Thanks y'all > > > > There is a lot of review and think about in your replies. So the > origami > > method cannot or has not been applied to catamarans? They all seem > to be > > longitudinals and frames with sheeting. And 4 mm of aluminum for the > bottom of a > > hull seems kind of thin. > > > > So when a Naval Architect signs off on a design, what does that > mean? Will > > it survive 4ft of water breaking over the bow? Here in Oklahoma > storm > > shelters get rated on how bad a tornado is that will rip them > apart. Isn't there > > some sort of scale for boats? Or is there at least an > international baseline > > that is used by the Architects use that say "this boat should never > be in blue > > water" etc, etc. And $5000 for plans? I was thinking $500. > > > > A Jacuzzi on a cat. That I love! ...but I'd settle for filling > the tender > > with warm water and putting a trolling motor inside. ...keep yer > pants on or > > watch that prop :) > > > > And I am not sold on aluminum, it's just the old "stick with what > you know" > > syndrome, and my submarine (which I will likely die in) project is > all about > > aluminum. There is a FRP boat on my self too, it just all looks so > sticky > > and takes so poorly to rocks, logs, etc.. But having spent just a > little on > > the water, I am stuck on a cat. The wife and I are planing a > vacation with a > > couple of days cat sailing this summer, preferably with a couple > the > > routinely cruises on a cat, just so we can be sure. Any > volunteers? > > > > Thanks again, > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > _www.submarineboat.com_ (http://www.submarineboat.com) > > > > PS: Old Ben, if you've got what it takes, which is a lack of good > sense ;) > > you'll be welcome aboard my sub anytime. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7035|7008|2005-03-03 18:38:18|seeratlas|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|Gerd, For a species that can build ships to sail to other worlds and indeed outside of our own solar system, I have no doubt that a 'seaworthy' as you put it cat can be designed and built. This does not negate the handling characteristics of such a boat which arise from the very nature of the beast. Next, I didn't think I posed my comments in the guise of "either/or". If I did, it was not my intention. First I do not think Brent's boats are ugly tanks. :) From all accounts I've been able to find, they sail reasonably well and, to me the elegant functionality and simplicity of their design and construction is far more attractive to my eye than the current fleet being offered tho I admit were i willing to spend a bit over a million on my next boat, the Hylas pilot house model is a beautiful ship :), at least at the dock :)Now, tossed on its side, grinding against an unseen reef somewhere in the South Pacific at 2am in the midst of a gale, I suspect a Swanson 36 or 40 would begin moving up rapidly on the 'beautiful ship' scale...to the point that as the water began to pour in thru the breached fibreglass hull, that Swanson "ugly tank" might just begin to look damned sexy.... :) Lastly, I consider myself to have an open mind, especially as to boats or I never would have found this group :) That doesn't, however mean that in keeping my mind open that I'm going to toss all the knowledge and experience I've gained over a lifetime out the open "hatch" into the drink :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > concerning ellen: > > 1 - that was not a cat, but a trimaran > > 2 - if you're racing in the southern oceans, and it's not terribly > uncomfortable, then you are probably doing something very wrong... ;- > ) > > 3 - glad you brought her up... what is often not really registered > is the fact that a boat that was raced around the world in extreme > conditions with an average of what - 14 or 15 knots overall? - could > probably not be considered "unseaworthy" just because it's not a one > of our ugly tanks built out of steel ... should really make us think > from time to time and open our minds - but that for sure is going > to bring up a long, heated and healthy debate ;-) > > Gerd | 7036|6380|2005-03-03 22:21:15|Johan de Bruin|Re: Steel hull|Does anybody know if this boat is still for sale?? Anybody have a contact number etc. ?? Thanks in advance Johan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "squboat" wrote: > > For sale 36Ft? bare steel hull built vancouver island > now located in Squamish brent swain design > open to offers. | 7037|7037|2005-03-04 05:39:45|Alex Christie|catamaran a l'origamie|I found a website in Polish which shows some hull models made from Origami techniques. He mentions the origamiboats group in his text, and also made a model of Brent's boats showing the influence. Anyhow, scroll down to find the catamaran hulls -- good photo and diagram showing where he made the darts, showing it does work for a long slim hull. Alex| 7038|7008|2005-03-04 06:54:20|Gerd|Re: Catamaran Plans/Jacuzzi on board.|Seer - I was talking about "our" tin cans, including my own project. Far from me to want to doubt their qualities and discreet charm ;-) But to see boat like Ellen's, beautifully designed and built and then handled successfully with great knowledge, experience and utter lack of regard for personal comfort on a round the world race fills me with awe and respect for the designer, builder, and sailor. Yes I think they are among the most beautiful boats on the planet - and I say that being more of a tradionalist myself for my own designs. I like classic lines, but maybe it's for the same reason I like modern multis: form follows function and and beauty results from the recognition of lines that are "right". With the spread of GRP production aestetics went a bit out the window, for mostly 2 reasons, one being that this material allowed free shaping unrestricted by building considerations and the other that for many years hulls and riggs were badly influenced by rating requirements. In the past decade that has improved, modern mass production cruising yachts no longer try fit to racing rules and they slowly begin to get the mix right: profit from the design possibilities of the material and at the same time design functional and nice. Today, a 40 or 50' Beneteau has a certain elegance and cleanliness of lines combined with lots of very good ideas on how to shape the volume for intended use - they look god, puposeful for THEIR purpose and that's ok with me. Really UGLY are only boats that have lines and shapes that are in no way justified by anything other than fads, be it modernistic or nostalgic. There are some very ugly futuristic designs around like that, especially in motoryachts, but some of the classic redesigns "in the style of" are worse, even if on first view they seem to look like the real thing. It's a thin line. but anyway - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, innit? ;-) Gerd the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gerd, > For a species that can build ships to sail to other worlds and indeed > outside of our own solar system, I have no doubt that a 'seaworthy' as > you put it cat can be designed and built. This does not negate the > handling characteristics of such a boat which arise from the very > nature of the beast. > > Next, I didn't think I posed my comments in the guise of "either/or". > If I did, it was not my intention. First I do not think Brent's boats > are ugly tanks. :) From all accounts I've been able to find, they sail > reasonably well and, to me the elegant functionality and simplicity > of their design and construction is far more attractive to my eye than > the current fleet being offered tho I admit were i willing to spend a > bit over a million on my next boat, the Hylas pilot house model is a > beautiful ship :), at least at the dock :)Now, tossed on its side, > grinding against an unseen reef somewhere in the South Pacific at 2am > in the midst of a gale, I suspect a Swanson 36 or 40 would begin > moving up rapidly on the 'beautiful ship' scale...to the point that as > the water began to pour in thru the breached fibreglass hull, that > Swanson "ugly tank" might just begin to look damned sexy.... :) > > Lastly, I consider myself to have an open mind, especially as to boats > or I never would have found this group :) That doesn't, however mean > that in keeping my mind open that I'm going to toss all the knowledge > and experience I've gained over a lifetime out the open "hatch" into > the drink :) LOL. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > concerning ellen: > > > > 1 - that was not a cat, but a trimaran > > > > 2 - if you're racing in the southern oceans, and it's not terribly > > uncomfortable, then you are probably doing something very wrong... ;- > > ) > > > > 3 - glad you brought her up... what is often not really registered > > is the fact that a boat that was raced around the world in extreme > > conditions with an average of what - 14 or 15 knots overall? - could > > probably not be considered "unseaworthy" just because it's not a one > > of our ugly tanks built out of steel ... should really make us think > > from time to time and open our minds - but that for sure is going > > to bring up a long, heated and healthy debate ;-) > > > > Gerd | 7039|7039|2005-03-04 07:17:22|Puck III|Links|Hi Alex , the Link to " A designer talks about using autoship to design origami hull " is not working . Could you redirect us ? May be someone downloaded the article and can post it in a File , cause that article sounds most intersting . I am always very interested in discovering something new regarding the Topic in the Group of course : Origami designed and build Steel & Aluminum Boats Thanks in advance . Old Ben| 7040|7008|2005-03-04 09:47:30|audeojude|Re: Catamaran Plans|-I think something we are all forgetting is that even among one hull type such as mono, tri or cat that not all boats handle alike. the super light 45 ft carbon mono hull is going to handle significantly different than a 45 ft 15 ton cruiser. I would bet that your 60 ft mono racer are an entirely differently handling beast than a 60 ft heavy displacement liveabord sailing yacht. One is going to go 20 knots the other about 10 or 11... double the speed well under half the weight.... :)bet it bounces when the other one gentley cuts thru the water :) as to steel catamarans. An idea that I follow closely.. I think that 10 to 20 ton catamaran is going to handle significantly different than the same size glass one. The steel one is going to weigh about 3+ times as much and have probably double the draft. It will have a huge amount of inertia to overcome compared to a glass one. Also a glass boat will be moving at significantly higher speeds and accelerations over a steel one in any given condition. I think it would be good to talk to someone that has actually sailed on a steel catamaran before we say that it would handle like a typical cat. Even for regular cats I have read many books where even in bad conditions the ride was prefered over a mono. :) I will comment that all the boats i read about were very heavy and heavily loaded for cruising. Also they were looking at top speeds between 7 to 11 knots. so the question then is how does the handling of a cat differ between a light displacement and heavy displacement boat. :) scott carle Scott Carle| 7041|6380|2005-03-04 11:01:14|boatsqu|Re: Steel hull|-The phone # 604-898-5106| 7042|7039|2005-03-04 12:49:49|A & K Christie|Re: Links|Hi Ben, I checked out the link and indeed it goes nowwhere. I can't find anything on the main site www.autoship.com related to it anymore either, though I don't have much time to really go through it (too busy building my boat!). If you have the time maybe you can find it in there? Regards, Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Puck III To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:14 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Links > > > Hi Alex , the Link to " A designer talks about using autoship to > design origami hull " is not working . > Could you redirect us ? May be someone downloaded the > article and can post it in a File , cause that article sounds > most intersting . > I am always very interested in discovering something new > regarding the Topic in the Group of course : > Origami designed and build Steel & Aluminum Boats > Thanks in advance . > Old Ben > > > > | 7043|7039|2005-03-04 13:17:19|Gerd|Re: Links|That link goes nowhere, and for soem time already. I think I checked it out last year and even sent them a mail because I found the subject interesting, but never got an answer. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, A & K Christie wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I checked out the link and indeed it goes nowwhere. I can't find anything > on the main site www.autoship.com related to it anymore either, though I > don't have much time to really go through it (too busy building my boat!). > If you have the time maybe you can find it in there? > > Regards, > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Puck III > To: > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:14 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Links > > > > > > > > Hi Alex , the Link to " A designer talks about using autoship to > > design origami hull " is not working . > > Could you redirect us ? May be someone downloaded the > > article and can post it in a File , cause that article sounds > > most intersting . > > I am always very interested in discovering something new > > regarding the Topic in the Group of course : > > Origami designed and build Steel & Aluminum Boats > > Thanks in advance . > > Old Ben > > > > > > > > | 7044|7044|2005-03-04 18:56:14|Gerd|more origami|You may already know that, but I just discovered 2 more origami plans, from Bray Yacht design, at http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ Check out the designs "Susan" and "Aisha" (junk rig), and there ay be more. I regularly do a web search for origami steel boats, but they are so discreet about it that they they just don't show up ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7045|7044|2005-03-04 19:14:49|Puck III|Re: more origami|Thanks Gerd , I realy appreciate that posting , give us more when you find . Thanks Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > You may already know that, but I just discovered 2 more origami > plans, from Bray Yacht design, at http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ > > Check out the designs "Susan" and "Aisha" (junk rig), and there ay > be more. > > I regularly do a web search for origami steel boats, but they are so > discreet about it that they they just don't show up ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 7046|7046|2005-03-05 12:50:05|Alex Christie|origamiboats message archive download|Hi Group, Thanks to the work of Jim Price, you can now download about 8000 of the group's messages from the very start, at his website : http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/origamiboats.zip The file can only be kept on his website for a limited time (we are giving it about a week or so), so I advise you to download the zip file sooner than later, if you want it. In the future I may find a better way of archiving, but this seems like a good bet for now. Alex| 7047|7047|2005-03-05 14:41:58|Puck III|Congratulations !!! 1000 Members|Keep on the good work all . Succes to all . Old Ben| 7048|7047|2005-03-05 15:27:57|Gerd|Re: Congratulations !!! 1000 Members|It's amazing really that a nice-topic like a particular way to build steel hulls will attract such an active, knowledgable and friendly croud. One of the most active boat & sailing forums on the web. A big THANK YOU to all of you out there !! ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Keep on the good work all . > Succes to all . > Old Ben | 7049|7047|2005-03-05 15:29:37|Gerd|Re: Congratulations !!! 1000 Members|oops... should have been "niche-topic" ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > It's amazing really that a nice-topic like a particular way to build > steel hulls will attract such an active, knowledgable and friendly > croud. One of the most active boat & sailing forums on the web. A > big THANK YOU to all of you out there !! ;-) > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > > Keep on the good work all . > > Succes to all . > > Old Ben | 7050|42|2005-03-07 00:10:51|hoss_manes|twin keels|is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single one?| 7051|7046|2005-03-07 00:26:19|jnikadie|Re: origamiboats message archive download|This download is great! Did anyone else have trouble moving from index to message or from message to message? I fixed the problem by doing a "multi-file find and replace" ... there are many tools that do this, I picked the one at http://www.modula2.org/projects/mreplace.php ... because it was the first result of a google. Not a 100% fix, but quite fast ... I'd need to do another replace to get the message-back-to-index links working, but I just use the "back" button. I can now move from index to message and use the "next" and "previous" links in the messages. Here's what I did ... two global replaces (obviously you'll probably need to change the location): NUMBER ONE: replace: Thanks to the work of Jim Price, you can now download about 8000 of the > group's messages from the very start, at his website : > http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/origamiboats.zip | 7052|7046|2005-03-07 00:30:10|jnikadie|Re: origamiboats message archive download|Ah! Just as I clicked the "Post" button I thought "perhaps it works just fine in Internet Explorer" ... and it did! Firefox is not as forgiving ... it doesn't do as good a job at converting pseudo absolute links to relative links as IE does. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > This download is great! > > Did anyone else have trouble moving from index to message or from > message to message? > > I fixed the problem by doing a "multi-file find and replace" ... there > are many tools that do this, I picked the one at > http://www.modula2.org/projects/mreplace.php ... because it was the > first result of a google. > > Not a 100% fix, but quite fast ... I'd need to do another replace to > get the message-back-to-index links working, but I just use the "back" > button. I can now move from index to message and use the "next" and > "previous" links in the messages. > > Here's what I did ... two global replaces (obviously you'll probably > need to change the location): > > NUMBER ONE: > > replace: location: D:\origamiboats > Do NOT check include subfolders > file mask: *.* > Click OK > > Result: > 142 files found > 26596 replacements in 141 files > > NUMBER TWO: > > replace: location: D:\origamiboats\message > Do NOT check include subfolders > file mask: *.* > Click OK > > Result: > 6588 files found > 41384 replacements in 6588 files > > > Now I just need to work on a search engine! > > > > > --- Alex Christie wrote: > > > Thanks to the work of Jim Price, you can now download about 8000 of the > > group's messages from the very start, at his website : > > http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/origamiboats.zip | 7053|7053|2005-03-07 00:59:46|jnikadie|car engine and transmission ... generator|I've been searching through the archive looking for info on using a car engine and transmission to power a boat ... this led to an idea ... might be crazy, but worth floating ... Get a diesel engine and matching tranny from a front-wheel-drive car (VW Golf?) ... mount in boat with the engine off-centre so that one of the drive shafts lines up with the prop shaft (connect these two shafts, and add a thrust bearing). As it stands the boat won't go anywhere ... the forward pointing shaft will spin as this is easier to do than turn the prop. So we lock the forward shaft and the prop turns twice as fast (for a given RPM and gear selection) as the tires on the car would (assuming the dif is not locked or limited-slip!). OK, now instead of just fixing the forward shaft, set both shafts up so that either is locked (one, and only one, shaft will always be locked) ... and hook the forward one up to a generator head. Lock the rear shaft, engine turns generator head, lock the forward shaft (and, in so doing, free the rear shaft), engine turns prop. ??? OK, I'm aware that oil cooling of both engine and transmission would be adviseable, but forgetting such things for the moment ... does the idea have any merit?| 7054|7053|2005-03-07 02:50:54|T & D CAIN|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|I suspect that the side gears in the differential would not last long --- they are not designed for continuous duty as described. Given that the VW and others in that class would like to run at 2500 RPM or more to produce useful output, you would be likely to have to use a high ratio in the transmission to reduce the prop. RPM to a sensible level - all in all, a very lossy (low efficiency) and short lived outfit and an idea best discarded? Terry -----Original Message----- From: jnikadie [mailto:j@...] Sent: Monday, 7 March 2005 15:30 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] car engine and transmission ... generator I've been searching through the archive looking for info on using a car engine and transmission to power a boat ... this led to an idea ... might be crazy, but worth floating ... Get a diesel engine and matching tranny from a front-wheel-drive car (VW Golf?) ... mount in boat with the engine off-centre so that one of the drive shafts lines up with the prop shaft (connect these two shafts, and add a thrust bearing). As it stands the boat won't go anywhere ... the forward pointing shaft will spin as this is easier to do than turn the prop. So we lock the forward shaft and the prop turns twice as fast (for a given RPM and gear selection) as the tires on the car would (assuming the dif is not locked or limited-slip!). OK, now instead of just fixing the forward shaft, set both shafts up so that either is locked (one, and only one, shaft will always be locked) ... and hook the forward one up to a generator head. Lock the rear shaft, engine turns generator head, lock the forward shaft (and, in so doing, free the rear shaft), engine turns prop. ??? OK, I'm aware that oil cooling of both engine and transmission would be adviseable, but forgetting such things for the moment ... does the idea have any merit? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7055|42|2005-03-07 04:32:29|Puck III|Re: twin keels|Hi, Gerd posted the Link to a fine article already in Links : http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ directions : Designs to Sailing Yachts to Aisha to More Info to : " performance twinkeel hull " to article : " the Advantages of Twin Keels " If you want me to , I'l post more recent analysis & pics about the performance twinkeels I hope this helps . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" wrote: > > is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single one?| 7056|7026|2005-03-07 05:04:23|Alex|Re: 999 members - Video Info request|The video is in its final editing stages now -- I will hopefully announce its completion at the end of this month. Looks like it will fill two DVD discs! Stay tuned. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mia" wrote: > > Congralutalations Alex !!!! for your patience :-) hard work , and > making this Group a fine place to Lurk anytime . > When is the Video be finished ??? > Count me in for a Copy :-) > > Mia | 7057|7057|2005-03-07 09:54:42|Johan de Bruin|Transporting Hull / Deck|Hi I would like to invite some comments on the best practises to move a BS36 in the twin keel configuration from Squamish, BC to Edmonton, AB (I know, I'm going the wrong way!). I would like some info on companies to contact that readers can recommend, pitfalls to be aware of, and other related information. If anybody reading this is up to the task themself and would like to submit a quote to me offline, I would like to encourage & welcome that as well. Thanks in advance Johan| 7058|7053|2005-03-07 12:17:48|sae140|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > I've been searching through the archive looking for info on using a > car engine and transmission to power a boat ... this led to an idea > ... might be crazy, but worth floating ... > > Get a diesel engine and matching tranny from a front-wheel-drive car > (VW Golf?) ... mount in boat with the engine off-centre so that one of > the drive shafts lines up with the prop shaft (connect these two > shafts, and add a thrust bearing). Unless you plan on doing a lot of motor-sailing, personally I think it's an idea worth pursuing. At the very least you'd need to weld-up the differential so that both shafts are locked, and fit some kind of dog-clutch to the forward-facing shaft in order to connect/ disconnect anything you may wish to drive from it. There *are* methods of modifying gearbox clusters to give more usable ratios - email me off-forum if you want more info on this - otherwise you'd need to drive this lump in second gear, with quite a poor reverse ratio, although that in itself doesn't negate the idea. You'd need to cool the g/box. Colin| 7059|7046|2005-03-07 12:59:55|maxxard|Re: origamiboats message archive download|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > Ah! Just as I clicked the "Post" button I thought "perhaps it works > just fine in Internet Explorer" ... and it did! It worked for me in firefox before I posted it - unfortunately, the zip program I used wouldn't allow me to mimic the same structure as the Yahoo site with empty directories in between - it just crunched it almost flat. If you want to reconstruct the original, without doing search and replace, move the messages directory to /group/origamiboats/messages. Then the "next" links will work, allowing you to follow a thread. > Firefox is not as forgiving ... it doesn't do as good a job at > converting pseudo absolute links to relative links as IE does. Or viewed another way, IE allows you to make mistakes on a website which can cause some really obscure things to happen... (I prefer Firefox - how embarassing that it "just works" in IE, even when its wrong). > > Now I just need to work on a search engine! Google desktop search. Available for free download at www.google.com.| 7060|7060|2005-03-07 14:07:49|Johan de Bruin|Current Ordering Address|Is the "3798 Laurel Drive" address still current for orders from Brent? Thanks Johan| 7061|7061|2005-03-07 14:32:52|Johan de Bruin|Photos Error|Sorry if this question has already been aked and answered... Is anybody else gettin this error message when accessing the Photos area? Error GROUP_CHECK gpg8.bc.scd.yahoo.com:GROUP_CHECK I do NOT get this error when accessing the photos in the origamiboats2 group. Thanks Johan| 7062|7061|2005-03-07 14:46:09|Alex Christie|Re: Photos Error|I've just checked, and it worked fine. Try again in a little while and see if it works, then let us know. The photos file is plugged full in group1, though we should still be able to access them. I may have to move some more photos over to group2 and see if that helps. Alex On 7-Mar-05, at 11:27 AM, Johan de Bruin wrote: > > > Sorry if this question has already been aked and answered... > > Is anybody else gettin this error message when accessing the Photos > area? > > Error > GROUP_CHECK > gpg8.bc.scd.yahoo.com:GROUP_CHECK > > I do NOT get this error when accessing the photos in the > origamiboats2 group. > > Thanks > Johan > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7063|7060|2005-03-07 14:55:38|brentswain38|Re: Current Ordering Address|Yes Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Johan de Bruin" wrote: > > Is the "3798 Laurel Drive" address still current for orders from > Brent? > > Thanks > Johan | 7064|7057|2005-03-07 15:00:03|brentswain38|Re: Transporting Hull / Deck|Ken Smith in Smokey Lake Alberta has a trailer made to fit the 36 , but I don't know if it's on the coast or at Smokey Lake. I'll ask him as he's in Nanaimo at the moment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Johan de Bruin" wrote: > > Hi > > I would like to invite some comments on the best practises to move a > BS36 in the twin keel configuration from Squamish, BC to Edmonton, > AB (I know, I'm going the wrong way!). I would like some info on > companies to contact that readers can recommend, pitfalls to be > aware of, and other related information. > > If anybody reading this is up to the task themself and would like to > submit a quote to me offline, I would like to encourage & welcome > that as well. > > Thanks in advance > Johan | 7065|7065|2005-03-08 03:28:36|SHANE ROTHWELL|1500 PSI Pressure washer pump|Hi Guys, Gord Schnell mentioned a 1500 PSI pressure washer pump being sold at Princess Auto for $57 & i picked one up. They still have a few left. I was hoping it would be suitable for a water maker as per Brent's design. The output of most pressure washers under about 3,000 psi generally ranges 2-2.5 gals/minute. No mention anywhere of manufactur's name or any spec's it has an aluminum cylinder head but Gord mentioned that all the parts that H2o comes into contact apear to be made of brass or bronze. I was thinking of putting a zink on the intake side connecting it electrically to the pump. Is this suitable for a water maker? Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 7066|7053|2005-03-08 11:38:06|Gordon Schnell|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|Yes, this idea has been floated in the past. I considered the same arrangement and bougth the diesel engine/5-spd. transmission from a VW Jetta. I eventually decided not to go that route because the unit did not fit down low enough in the hull (keel) to allow the pilothouse floor at the height I wanted it. Instead, I used a BorgWarner VelvetDrive transmission mated to the VW diesel engine I bought. Someone else on this site has also done this and has posted test results of the combination. It sounds like it worked well for them. Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7067|42|2005-03-08 11:42:25|Jeff Halpern|Re: twin keels|hoss_manes wrote: >is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single one? > > > Yes, Twin keels have typically a substantially higher drag for a given amount of leeway resistance, and they typically require substantially higher ballast weights for a given stability. Jeff| 7068|22|2005-03-08 20:12:11|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /229SLMC4.doc Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 39' Steel Origami sail boat. Raised deck and Center cockpit. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/229SLMC4.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 7069|42|2005-03-08 22:35:19|edt_978|Re: twin keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern wrote: > hoss_manes wrote: > > >is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single one? > > > > > > > Yes, Twin keels have typically a substantially higher drag for a given > amount of leeway resistance, and they typically require substantially > higher ballast weights for a given stability. > Jeff The keyword here is typically. Believe I remember Brent making a comment that the same amount of steel is used to build either type of keel. This would imply about the same drag. As to leeway my guess is that it would be a function of heel angle - might just be better than a single keel at some angles. I my mind the ability to beach is very valuable. Ed| 7070|22|2005-03-09 00:17:39|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /229GA3MC.doc Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton Description : 39' Steel Origami cutter "Beyond" You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/229GA3MC.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, yvesmariedetanton | 7071|7053|2005-03-09 00:28:11|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|It seems to me that generators where ment to run at a near constant speed with surguing caused by power demand. A prop is made to go at variable speeds (Docking ect.). It would seem to work better with a large altinater and a inverter or converter then rpm would not mater. I beleave though I may be wrong so lets hear more on it. Jon| 7072|7072|2005-03-09 00:34:44|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Design consept wanted|Does anyone have a origami plan for a flat bottem spoon bowed 30 degree rise stern at hull at about 30' long that would work for a sternwheeler? Jon| 7073|7053|2005-03-09 01:09:29|jnikadie|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|My original idea was that only one shaft would run at a time ... either the generator or the prop. Use the engine to drive the prop when in motion ... once anchored use the engine to drive the generator. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It seems to me that generators where ment to run at a near constant > speed with surguing caused by power demand. A prop is made to go at > variable speeds (Docking ect.). It would seem to work better with a > large altinater and a inverter or converter then rpm would not mater. > I beleave though I may be wrong so lets hear more on it. > > Jon | 7074|42|2005-03-09 03:20:59|Puck III|Re: twin keels|Hi , me again , do not forget to have a look at 2 files in Files : 7-BIMINI.jpg a twinkeel speedster's pic & JPBart22a.jpg selfexplaining drawings & text about twinkeelers A boat is designed towards a designgoal as a whole , one should compare apples with apples and pears with.... I hope this helps , more if you realy need it , Origami is the Topic here :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi, Gerd posted the Link to a fine article already in Links : > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ > directions : > Designs to Sailing Yachts to Aisha to More Info to : > " performance twinkeel hull " to article : > " the Advantages of Twin Keels " > If you want me to , I'l post more recent analysis & > pics about the performance twinkeels > I hope this helps . > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" > wrote: > > > > is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single > one? | 7075|42|2005-03-09 04:30:45|Puck III|Re: twin keels|Do also have a look at 2 files already posted in Files : Bimini twinkeel speedster & JPBart22a.jpg to see you can't look at the twinkeels alone , the boat , its weight , concept or in one word : everything has to be compared as a whole . What's the designgoal the boat was designed for ? I hope this helps Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi, Gerd posted the Link to a fine article already in Links : > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ > directions : > Designs to Sailing Yachts to Aisha to More Info to : > " performance twinkeel hull " to article : > " the Advantages of Twin Keels " > If you want me to , I'l post more recent analysis & > pics about the performance twinkeels > I hope this helps . > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" > wrote: > > > > is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single > one? | 7076|7031|2005-03-09 04:47:15|dreemer1962|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Old Ben, Gerd, I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something else? As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the ultra light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement in the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not much money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. Milan > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old buggers > like us except that they were much better at keeping their dreams > alive ;-) > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even if > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get the > beer... > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > Old Ben | 7077|7077|2005-03-09 05:07:57|Puck III|Security on the Net :-) --Double Postings --|Hi Guys , sory for the double posting :-) As you all can see : post 7075 send Mar 2.23 am , ( 7 hours earlier ) than post 7074 send Mar 9.2O am shows the earlyer post was under stronger screening by the older brother of little sister , ( probably :-) Could that be cause I visited another Group where some comments were posted about GW ??? I sure hope not :-) Just to tell you all , how important it is to stay with the Topic :-) The Group mentioned is about realy small cruisers , sure some serious fighting over there . I posted a Big Joke there , all seems calm there for now :-) Sory again . Sory Milan , I do not even think about answering your question about flying , you must be under suspicion already :-) Cautious Old Ben from the Old Europ :-)| 7078|42|2005-03-09 05:14:46|sae140|Re: twin keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edt_978" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern > wrote: > > hoss_manes wrote: > > > > >is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single one? > > > > > Yes, Twin keels have typically a substantially higher drag for a > given > > amount of leeway resistance, and they typically require > substantially > > higher ballast weights for a given stability. > > Jeff > > The keyword here is typically. 'Substantially' is also something of an exaggeration - with the exception of single shallow ballast keels with twin bilge plates. They *are* poor performers. I think a useful question to ask is "what percentage of your life (or of your boat's life !) will be spent sailing under those conditions where a single, full-length or deep keel might possibly award you some advantage ?" As most boats spend the lions's share of their life either tied to a dock or to the sea-bed, or pottering around shallow creeks, then to my mind parkability, maintainability and shallow water accessibility rate far more highly than an ability to obtain that last quarter knot, or those extra couple of degrees to windward. Colin| 7079|42|2005-03-09 10:07:50|Jeff Halpern|Re: twin keels|"As most boats spend the lions's share of their life either tied to a >dock or to the sea-bed, or pottering around shallow creeks, then to >my mind parkability, maintainability and shallow water accessibility >rate far more highly than an ability to obtain that last quarter >knot, or those extra couple of degrees to windward. > >Colin" > > If that is the how you use your boat, then a very significant disadvantage of a twin keel is that they are extremely difficult to free if they are accidentally run aground. Jeff| 7080|42|2005-03-09 11:48:39|sae140|Re: twin keels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern wrote: > "As most boats spend the lions's share of their life either tied to a > > >dock or to the sea-bed, or pottering around shallow creeks, then to > >my mind parkability, maintainability and shallow water accessibility > >rate far more highly than an ability to obtain that last quarter > >knot, or those extra couple of degrees to windward. > > > >Colin" > > > > > > If that is the how you use your boat, then a very significant > disadvantage of a twin keel is that they are extremely difficult to free > if they are accidentally run aground. > > Jeff Assuming you're heeled, then simply let the sheets fly and the boat will come upright - with less draught. Try that with a single keeler and see what happens .... And if you're not heeled ? - well, unlike a single keeler there's no drama involved - just put the kettle on while you consider the best course of action. Colin| 7081|7081|2005-03-09 11:55:22|sae140|Easier welding|If like me you like to avoid overhead welding, and prefer to weld in the flat position as much as possible, then check out the graphics I've posted into the Origamiboats2 'Files' section, which show a simple way to rotate a steel hull for easier seam welding. (The hull shown is a Wylo II) Colin| 7082|7031|2005-03-09 12:41:47|Gerd|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly flying trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick up again. A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that was. All that is many years ago though. Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" wrote: > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something else? > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the ultra > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement in > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not much > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > Milan > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old buggers > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their dreams > > alive ;-) > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even if > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get the > > beer... > > > > Gerd > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > Old Ben | 7083|7083|2005-03-09 14:43:22|Johan de Bruin|BS36 KEEL Width|Hi Assuming that a BS36 BILGE KEELER is built to spec., what is the width of the 2 keels at the 2 outermost edges? This is very import for transportation on a double-drop truck, and in particular in BC where the widest legal double drop is 10ft. Alex et al that is currently building one, can you please measure and advise. Thanks in advance Johan| 7084|7061|2005-03-09 15:31:54|jim_both|Re: Photos Error|I've been trying to access the photo section for the last 10 days and get the same message: gpg6.bc.scd.yahoo.com:GROUP_CHECK I've tried at various times of the day and still no sucess. Jim_both --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Johan de Bruin" wrote: > > Sorry if this question has already been aked and answered... > > Is anybody else gettin this error message when accessing the Photos > area? > > Error > GROUP_CHECK > gpg8.bc.scd.yahoo.com:GROUP_CHECK > > I do NOT get this error when accessing the photos in the > origamiboats2 group. > > Thanks > Johan | 7085|7031|2005-03-09 17:35:36|denis buggy|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Milan, Gerd , old Ben Scott I have been a member of the wig group at yahoo for many years (WING IN GROUND EFFECT) THIS GROUP PROMOTES THE USE OF THE BOUNDARY LAYER JUST ABOVE WAVE HEIGHT . and I was drawn to this aircraft as it is not officially recognised as a aircraft and you do not need a pilots licence to fly it . there is a huge body of research into hull shapes and how to unstick yourself from the water at generally 50--- 70 knots my plan was to use the ww 2 proven technology and use a diesel as the dornier and blom + voss seaplanes used . you can lift huge weights and you have a massive range compared to other aircraft however you are restricted to 1.5 times the wingspan over the water and night flying is not an option . many birds fly at wave height to double their range with less effort if you want to see this research taken to a massive scale click on CASPIAN SEA MONSTER or EKROPLAN . Eventually I could not think of taking my family on such a vessel as that is what they are legally known as 150 ft off sea is legally airspace and if you fly below this you are in a VESSEL , the twin floats research for these vessels has led me to embrace the catamaran concept as a suitable and safe holiday home for my family and steel is my only option . I would like to thank all in orgamiboats for all your help and I have a lot to learn yet before I have enough courage to have a go . the last posting on catamarans by Scott Carle re metal catamarans summed up my worries perfectly I would commence building in the morning if I had the wits to come up with a safe hull design . congratulations to all on your 1000 th member . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 5:31 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly flying trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick up again. A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that was. All that is many years ago though. Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" wrote: > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something else? > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the ultra > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement in > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not much > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > Milan > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old buggers > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their dreams > > alive ;-) > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even if > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get the > > beer... > > > > Gerd > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > Old Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7086|7053|2005-03-09 17:53:19|kendall|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It seems to me that generators where ment to run at a near constant > speed with surguing caused by power demand. A prop is made to go at > variable speeds (Docking ect.). It would seem to work better with a > large altinater and a inverter or converter then rpm would not mater. > I beleave though I may be wrong so lets hear more on it. > > Jon Most generators are designed to run at best efficiency (for rated voltage/power) at around 3500 rpm, (same as most small engines brigs and stratton etc) powerboat props are generally designed for about 5000 to 5500rpm, sailboat props are usually designed for lower rpm, 2500 - 3500 is what most seem to be spec'd at. alternators behave differently then generators, more speed for a generator means more power produced, alternators have a certain range that they work properly drawback is that an alternator needs power to start producing power, so if your batteries are truly dead, you can't recharge them, even if you have a hand crank to fire up the diesel. best route is to find the most efficient rpm range for the engine you have/want, most engines have a range where they both make best power and use the least fuel, (every now and then you find one that doesn't 'match' and the most power uses most fuel, then locate a prop that matches the rpm of the engine, and the weight of the boat. then gear up or down to match the generator rpm needed. inverters are nice, and I have a couple, mostly for running power tools off grid, but they are also very inefficient, better to convert everything to dc, go to camping stores not boat stores. ken.| 7087|7087|2005-03-09 22:34:20|rcook222003|group and file 2|where on the site do I locate them. Thanks, Ron| 7088|7087|2005-03-09 23:53:59|Alex Christie|Re: group and file 2|The second group is located at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2 Alex > > where on the site do I locate them. > > Thanks, > > Ron > > > | 7089|7061|2005-03-10 01:59:32|sandersonr|Re: Photos Error|I am also getting the error message. Rob Sanderson| 7090|7061|2005-03-10 03:33:46|Alex|Re: Photos Error|The photos error problem is ongoing for lots of people, it sounds like. Oddly enough, I can access the photos as moderator with no problem, but if I sign in with a non- moderator ID I too cannot see the photos. As a test, I have removed one old album, and reduced the storage load down to 98% from its over quota state. PLEASE DON'T ADD MORE PHOTOS to this group (group1), and let's see if this stops the error message from happening! If that doesn't fix it, then it is likely a glitch with Yahoo and they'll likely be aware of it. Alex| 7091|7061|2005-03-10 03:52:19|Alex|Photos fix|Removing some photo files seems to have fixed the problem, according to my test. Let me know if anyone still has problems getting into them. And again, I'd like to remind members to put new photos for sharing into origamiboats2 group or we'll have the same problem. Also, unless a photo is directly related to an idea being worked on which is oriented to the origami technique, or has some direct value to solving a problem, I'll also have to remove it after a few days, due to limited storage. It will also help if you refrain from posting photos only meant for one person -- post these directly to the person instead and save our file space to allow continued access for all members. It is a strange glitch in Yahoo, but keeping our file space just under the maximum limit seems to be the only way of keeping it available to see. Alex| 7092|7053|2005-03-10 05:56:44|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|>>>>>>>>sailboat props are usually designed for lower rpm, 2500 - 3500 is what most seem to be spec'd at>>>>>>>>>> Too each his own but I prefer to run my sailboat prop at a very maximum of 1,000 RPM. If I were considering an automobile transmission I would be looking long and hard at an automatic transmission. I can't picture not using a clutch with a standard transmission and the clutch presents a problem that I would not want to deal with. Seems that a small hystat transmission from a small asphalt roller or the like would really be the hot setup. You could then drive the generator off a fixed shaft between the hystat and the car motor. Gerald| 7093|7053|2005-03-10 06:59:52|sae140|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > drawback is that an alternator needs power to start producing power, > so if your batteries are truly dead, you can't recharge them, even if > you have a hand crank to fire up the diesel. There is now a simple workaround for this: simply epoxy thin rare- earth magnets from old hard drives (Quantum/Maxtor 60-540 Mb 3.5" are my favourite) under the alternator rotor poles to create a self- starting alternator. Colin| 7094|7053|2005-03-10 07:15:44|Earl Burgess|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|Can you post some pictures or drawings of this procedure? Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" > There is now a simple workaround for this: simply epoxy thin rare- > earth magnets from old hard drives (Quantum/Maxtor 60-540 Mb 3.5" are > my favourite) under the alternator rotor poles to create a self- > starting alternator. > > Colin | 7095|7031|2005-03-10 07:52:30|dreemer1962|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|"…and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, working and building I will sure have some time left ." Yes, so many nice things to do, so little time... > > Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for > ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly flying > trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but > also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like > quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines > as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a > bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick > up again. > > A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that > was. All that is many years ago though. > > Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 > ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > wrote: > > > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something > else? > > > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the > ultra > > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement in > > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not > much > > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > > > Milan > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old > buggers > > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their > dreams > > > alive ;-) > > > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even > if > > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get the > > > beer... > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > > > Old Ben | 7096|7031|2005-03-10 09:29:59|dreemer1962|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Hi Denis, Interesting concept, that wig. I saw Caspian monster on Discovery channel while ago. Aside from family version, did you think about small, simple one, just for fun? Good luck with your catamaran Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > Milan, Gerd , old Ben Scott I have been a member of the wig group at yahoo for many years (WING IN GROUND EFFECT) THIS GROUP PROMOTES THE USE OF THE BOUNDARY LAYER JUST ABOVE WAVE HEIGHT . and I was drawn to this aircraft as it is not officially recognised as a aircraft and you do not need a pilots licence to fly it . there is a huge body of research into hull shapes and how to unstick yourself from the water at generally 50--- 70 knots my plan was to use the ww 2 proven technology and use a diesel as the dornier and blom + voss seaplanes used . you can lift huge weights and you have a massive range compared to other aircraft however you are restricted to 1.5 times the wingspan over the water and night flying is not an option . many birds fly at wave height to double their range with less effort if you want to see this research taken to a massive scale click on CASPIAN SEA MONSTER or EKROPLAN . > Eventually I could not think of taking my family on such a vessel as that is what they are legally known as 150 ft off sea is legally airspace and if you fly below this you are in a VESSEL , the twin floats research for these vessels has led me to embrace the catamaran concept as a suitable and safe holiday home for my family and steel is my only option . > I would like to thank all in orgamiboats for all your help and I have a lot to learn yet before I have enough courage to have a go . > the last posting on catamarans by Scott Carle re metal catamarans summed up my worries perfectly I would commence building in the morning if I had the wits to come up with a safe hull design . > congratulations to all on your 1000 th member . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerd > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 5:31 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today > > > > Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for > ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly flying > trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but > also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like > quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines > as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a > bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick > up again. > > A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that > was. All that is many years ago though. > > Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 > ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > wrote: > > > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something > else? > > > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the > ultra > > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement in > > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not > much > > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > > > Milan > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old > buggers > > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their > dreams > > > alive ;-) > > > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even > if > > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get the > > > beer... > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > > > Old Ben > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7097|7083|2005-03-10 13:49:36|A & K Christie|Re: BS36 KEEL Width|I'll be going to my boat site in town today and will grab those measurements for you. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Johan de Bruin To: Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] BS36 KEEL Width > > > Hi > > Assuming that a BS36 BILGE KEELER is built to spec., what is the > width of the 2 keels at the 2 outermost edges? > > This is very import for transportation on a double-drop truck, and > in particular in BC where the widest legal double drop is 10ft. > > Alex et al that is currently building one, can you please measure > and advise. > > Thanks in advance > Johan > | 7098|7098|2005-03-10 15:18:48|jim dorey|doodee|http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66833,00.html how many o yoo have problems that this would solve? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7099|7053|2005-03-10 17:33:21|kendall|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > > > > drawback is that an alternator needs power to start producing > power, > > so if your batteries are truly dead, you can't recharge them, even > if > > you have a hand crank to fire up the diesel. > > > There is now a simple workaround for this: simply epoxy thin rare- > earth magnets from old hard drives (Quantum/Maxtor 60-540 Mb 3.5" are > my favourite) under the alternator rotor poles to create a self- > starting alternator. > > Colin How well does that work? and is it good for all alts? ken| 7100|7031|2005-03-10 18:26:25|seeratlas|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Gerd, Have you seen and/or flown one of the flighing dinghy things out there? I understand the Italians have one in production utilizing an avon/zodiac type tender from Lomac (sp?). That strikes me as an insane amount of fun. I used to fly planes a long time ago, and before that was pretty fair hang glider. The combination of the hanglider wing with a fabric dinghy really seems to me to present some nuts possibilities LOL. Imagine sailing into the outer harbor, setting the hook , pulling out and affixxing the wing and engine to the tender then taxxing out, taking off for an hour tour of the surrounding areas. LOL. the more I think about it, the more I wonder how hard it would be to build one. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" wrote: > > > "…and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > working and building I will sure have some time left ." > > > Yes, so many nice things to do, so little time... > > > > > > > > Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for > > ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly > flying > > trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but > > also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like > > quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines > > as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a > > bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick > > up again. > > > > A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that > > was. All that is many years ago though. > > > > Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 > > ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > > working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > > wrote: > > > > > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > > > > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > > > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something > > else? > > > > > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > > > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the > > ultra > > > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > > > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement > in > > > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not > > much > > > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > > > > > Milan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old > > buggers > > > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their > > dreams > > > > alive ;-) > > > > > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even > > if > > > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get > the > > > > beer... > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Ben | 7101|22|2005-03-10 19:47:49|khooper_fboats|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|> Uploaded by : yvesmariedetanton > Description : 39' Steel Origami sail boat. Raised deck and Center cockpit. > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/229SLMC4.doc Very very nice! Does this go together something like the Swain boat, is the build procedure similar? Is there 6' headroom in the aft cabin? I never know how big these naval architect stick people are supposed to be. Will you draw the unstayed rig for it? This doesn't seem to be on your web site, have you priced plans yet? I can kick this out as a PDF for you if you like, some people don't have MS Word. --Hoop| 7102|7065|2005-03-10 22:44:34|brentswain38|Re: 1500 PSI Pressure washer pump|I've been told to shoot for 3 GPM , but you could try it. Good luck. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Gord Schnell mentioned a 1500 PSI pressure washer pump > being sold at Princess Auto for $57 & i picked one up. > They still have a few left. I was hoping it would be > suitable for a water maker as per Brent's design. > > The output of most pressure washers under about 3,000 > psi generally ranges 2-2.5 gals/minute. No mention > anywhere of manufactur's name or any spec's > > it has an aluminum cylinder head but Gord mentioned > that all the parts that H2o comes into contact apear > to be made of brass or bronze. I was thinking of > putting a zink on the intake side connecting it > electrically to the pump. > > Is this suitable for a water maker? > > Cheers, > Shane > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 7103|7103|2005-03-10 22:53:51|sherry_mcallister|steel hull transport|I am trying to transport a steel hull 36' from squamish to edmonton. I found a friend who has a one tonne truck but no trailer. Is the trailer that fits this hull in vancouver or here in alberta? The trip would be done over Easter/ spring break. Could the trailer be rented for this time frame and what would the cost be? Thanks in advance Sherry| 7104|42|2005-03-10 22:54:28|brentswain38|Re: twin keels|They require the same ballast as a single keeler of the same draft, as the centre of gravity of the ballast is at the same height. They only have substantially more drag if the designer is foolish enough to make each of the twin keels the same size as a single keel would be, abandoning the advantage of the twin keel being upright when the boat is heeled 25 degrees.As they are twice as effective in terms of lateral resistance as a single keel they each only have to be half the area. Thus the total wetted surface is the same as a single keel and a fraction that of a full length keel. They also have far more drag if the designer is foolish enough to make them both dead upright , greatly incresing the interaction between them. I raced a sister ship to my twin keeler which had a single keel. The difference was very marginal in 12 knots of wind. I also sailed circles around a 30 ft , deep keeled MORC boat on all points of wind, a boat which other boats had trouble catching and rarely did. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern wrote: > hoss_manes wrote: > > >is there any disadvantage in having twin keels over a single one? > > > > > > > Yes, Twin keels have typically a substantially higher drag for a given > amount of leeway resistance, and they typically require substantially > higher ballast weights for a given stability. > Jeff | 7105|5777|2005-03-10 23:08:32|brentswain38|Alternator welding|Well I finally cooked the diodes on my alternator welder after six months of welding. I got my $35 worth considering it costs $45 a day to rent one . I believe that my mistake was switching on the field at higher RPM rather than lower. I had a set of heavy duty welding diodes off an old commercially built welder (diode numbers MR5020 and MR5020L) which was rated 100% duty cycle. They were in good sized heat sinks and didn't even get warm during a brief welding trial.I hooked them up to my 100 amp chrysler alternator and it worked well. I believe this will last far longer than the automotive alternator diodes. Does any body know what that large capacitor in the back of an alternator is for? Is heat the only enemy of diodes ? Will they be safe as long as I don't let them get all that hot? Brent| 7106|7103|2005-03-11 00:46:41|jericoera|Re: steel hull transport|You can save a lot of money on transport if you contact someone with a semi trailer and get them to pick up your boat after they have already delivered their load to BC. You only pay one way then instead of both ways. Too bad you couldn't wait until fall when all the hay is shipped to BC from the USA and provinces east of BC. Its called a back haul. Just a thought. Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sherry_mcallister" wrote: > > I am trying to transport a steel hull 36' from squamish to edmonton. > I found a friend who has a one tonne truck but no trailer. Is the > trailer that fits this hull in vancouver or here in alberta? The > trip would be done over Easter/ spring break. Could the trailer be > rented for this time frame and what would the cost be? > > Thanks in advance > Sherry | 7107|7107|2005-03-11 00:58:44|jericoera|Benefits of twin keels|Ok, while I am no expert on the subject of twin keels, I did find the most excellent article that explains it succinctly and i will provide you all the link below. I think twin keels have to be better anyway. You don't see fish or sharks swimming around with one fin poking out the bottom- fish are designed more with the twin keel philosophy and they have been in the water longer than you or I. Check out www.kastenmarine.com/roll_attenuation.htm If that link fails just go to www.kastenmarine.com and poke around in the article segment until you find the twin keels part. Carl McIntosh| 7108|7031|2005-03-11 02:12:00|dreemer1962|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Yes, would be nice to heave a flying dinghy. Here is the link: http://flightability.bizland.com/PFIBNC.htm Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gerd, > Have you seen and/or flown one of the flighing dinghy things out > there? I understand the Italians have one in production utilizing an > avon/zodiac type tender from Lomac (sp?). That strikes me as an > insane amount of fun. I used to fly planes a long time ago, and before > that was pretty fair hang glider. The combination of the hanglider > wing with a fabric dinghy really seems to me to present some nuts > possibilities LOL. Imagine sailing into the outer harbor, setting the > hook , pulling out and affixxing the wing and engine to the tender > then taxxing out, taking off for an hour tour of the surrounding > areas. LOL. the more I think about it, the more I wonder how hard it > would be to build one. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > wrote: > > > > > > "…and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > > working and building I will sure have some time left ." > > > > > > Yes, so many nice things to do, so little time... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for > > > ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly > > flying > > > trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but > > > also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like > > > quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines > > > as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a > > > bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick > > > up again. > > > > > > A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that > > > was. All that is many years ago though. > > > > > > Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 > > > ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > > > working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > > > > > > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > > > > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something > > > else? > > > > > > > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > > > > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the > > > ultra > > > > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > > > > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement > > in > > > > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not > > > much > > > > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > > > > > > > Milan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old > > > buggers > > > > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their > > > dreams > > > > > alive ;-) > > > > > > > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even > > > if > > > > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get > > the > > > > > beer... > > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Ben | 7109|5777|2005-03-11 03:10:23|jnikadie|Re: Alternator welding|When looking at power diodes there are six things you need to consider: - Vf ... the amount of voltage dropped by the diode when current is passing through it forwards (the normal way). Normally the lower Vf the better ... more efficient and less heat created. - Max current ... even if a diode doesn't get hot, putting too much current through it could blow it ... I suspect this is what happened to yours. - Max temperature ... just get a big heatsink. - "Theta" (both the diode's and the heat sink's) ... the temperature increase for each watt of energy the diode burns off (look for a diode with a low theta and a low Vf so that it burns off less energy ... and, again, just get a big heatsink). - Vr - the reverse voltage the diode will resist. - Vf increasing with temperature ... if a diode drops more voltage (burns more energy) as it gets hot there is a risk that it will "run-away" ... it gets hotter, therefore drops more voltage, therefore gets hotter ... you see where I'm going! PERHAPS (note emphasis on this word!) a diode to consider is the 175BGQ030 ... (note that I haven't used one, I just know of them and they seem too good to be true). Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. However, note that the cathode of this diode is what is to be attached to the heatsink ... you need to keep the join insulated (electrically, but not thermally). The good: - very high current (175A continuous, up to 8000A for spikes!) - low Vf (efficient and will generate less heat) - Vf drops with temp (avoiding the run-away) - low theta The bad: - cathode attaches to heatsink (need to design around this!) - high reverse current when hot (OK in this application) Datasheet (which has photos) is available at: http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/175bgq030.pdf Digikey currently has 48 of them for CAD $7.37 each, or CAD $5.89 if you buy 10 of them. Search ca.digikey.com for part number 175BGQ030J-ND Note that it is the "J" part ... refer to the datasheet ... the longer lead with the bolt hole would be better ... but digikey is currently out of stock of all other variants of the BGQ diodes and I can't find them anywhere else. I think a "bolt-'em together" approach would be better than trying to solder these things to big enough wire ... I think you'd have trouble getting enough heat to provide a good solder joint without killing the diodes. Good luck. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Well I finally cooked the diodes on my alternator welder after six > months of welding. I got my $35 worth considering it costs $45 a day > to rent one . I believe that my mistake was switching on the field at > higher RPM rather than lower. > I had a set of heavy duty welding diodes off an old commercially > built welder (diode numbers MR5020 and MR5020L) which was rated 100% > duty cycle. They were in good sized heat sinks and didn't even get > warm during a brief welding trial.I hooked them up to my 100 amp > chrysler alternator and it worked well. I believe this will last far > longer than the automotive alternator diodes. > Does any body know what that large capacitor in the back of an > alternator is for? Is heat the only enemy of diodes ? Will they be > safe as long as I don't let them get all that hot? > Brent | 7110|7031|2005-03-11 03:56:14|Gerd|Re: Virgin GlobalFlyer Victory Today|Funny that you should ask - actually yes, about 15 , 16 years ago I was at the Genua Boatshow, were we exposed the Dynamique 80', and there was a guy in the outer harbour demoing his flying Zodiac. He was buzzing above our heads all the time, but somehow he had legislation problems and would not take any passengers. I then explained to him that I had a customer for a boat who absolutely wanted one of his machines, and managed to get a demo flight - we had the one of the biggest boats on that show, so he just had to take me serious ;-) He took me up for about 40 minutes. Flying the thing was a bit muscular, the dinghy was heavy and the weight dampened all movements. Bit like handling a truck. Take off and landing was quite bumpy, although there was just a little bit of a chop. I heard later that the guys in my old club (http://www.randkar.fr/) in France were doing tests of their own, on a small canal that was right next to the terrain. But to store a glider wing on a small boat is not easy, even you take one like these old german designs that fold in half, with the sort of bowsprit sticking out up front. I always though that if you want to take something along on a boat to fly wherever you go, a paraglider with back-pack engine might be the just the thing, light, small, folds easily and the paragliders keep getting better all the time. So now, of course, to get this onto the water... if you could create some combination of surf-kite style para wing (with bouyancy) that you could launch from a minimalistic light weight dinghy with push- prop... should we take a patent and are we going to get rich or what??! ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gerd, > Have you seen and/or flown one of the flighing dinghy things out > there? I understand the Italians have one in production utilizing an > avon/zodiac type tender from Lomac (sp?). That strikes me as an > insane amount of fun. I used to fly planes a long time ago, and before > that was pretty fair hang glider. The combination of the hanglider > wing with a fabric dinghy really seems to me to present some nuts > possibilities LOL. Imagine sailing into the outer harbor, setting the > hook , pulling out and affixxing the wing and engine to the tender > then taxxing out, taking off for an hour tour of the surrounding > areas. LOL. the more I think about it, the more I wonder how hard it > would be to build one. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > wrote: > > > > > > "…and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > > working and building I will sure have some time left ." > > > > > > Yes, so many nice things to do, so little time... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Milan, yes, I did some flying... I hold a french ULM license for > > > ultralights and for some years was quite active. I was mostly > > flying > > > trikes (tricicles with prop in the back and hanglider on top) but > > > also did some 3-axis on those deck-chair string&canvas ultras like > > > quicksilver etc. In the same period I did hours on other machines > > > as well and have about 10 instructor hours on different gliders, a > > > bit of cessna etc. It's one of the things that I would like to pick > > > up again. > > > > > > A friend of mine build a plywood Mitchell wing, lovely machine that > > > was. All that is many years ago though. > > > > > > Actually there is a small terrain right here in the village with 3 > > > ultralights, and maybe this spring... between drawing, studying, > > > working and building I will sure have some time left ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > - --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Old Ben, Gerd, > > > > > > > > I know it's bit off topic, but I'll ask jou anyway, are you into > > > > flying as well? Maybe also plane building? Vari Eze? Something > > > else? > > > > > > > > As for myself, I got interested in flying last years and I flew > > > > couple of times in a sail plane, motor - sail plane and in the > > > ultra > > > > light, sort of smaller Cessna 150. I looked oftenly at different > > > > building plans, but I'm afraid that for any serious involvement > > in > > > > the flying I will need next life, considering the fact that not > > > much > > > > money, time e.c.t. stays over after I'm done with a sailing. > > > > > > > > Milan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting that , Old Ben!!! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > It's great, it's beautiful and it's done by a bunch of old > > > buggers > > > > > like us except that they were much better at keeping their > > > dreams > > > > > alive ;-) > > > > > > > > > > I would give my life to be working with people like Rutan, even > > > if > > > > > all they would allow me to do was to make sandwiches and get > > the > > > > > beer... > > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Fosset making History > > > > > > > with Burt Rutan's designed Virgin Global Flyer . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a Victory !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An example for all . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I take my hat of and bow , cause I am realy enjoyed > > > > > > > and impressed about what those eternal youngsters achieved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You 'l find all in the Press , but I could not resist > > > > > > > expressing my great admiration for those 2 Great Americans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congratulations again , to their complete Team !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Ben | 7111|7053|2005-03-11 04:54:31|sae140|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Burgess" wrote: > Can you post some pictures or drawings of this procedure? > Earl > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sae140" > > There is now a simple workaround for this: simply epoxy thin rare- > > earth magnets from old hard drives (Quantum/Maxtor 60-540 Mb 3.5" are > > my favourite) under the alternator rotor poles to create a self- > > starting alternator. > > > > Colin Sorry, don't have a digital camera (it's at the top of my 'wish list'). However: http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/gm_alt_mod.htm is the site I got the basic idea from. The guy had machined the existing rotor with much difficulty and then found that the glued-on magnets flew off at high revs. The hard drive magnets I referred to are less than 1.5 mm thick (but don't let that fool you - when 2 of these come together they'll cause a blood blister if your finger's in the way) and I found there is just enough room to slide these into the space under the rotor tips. They cannot fly off from that position. The best epoxy to use is JB-Weld which has a much higher temperature spec than ordinary stuff. You can perform this mod on any alternator provided there is sufficient room to fit the magnets. When you cannabilise the drives you'll find some very thin rare-earth magnets epoxied to a plate in the actuator arm mechanism. 4 in each drive. Bending the plate will release these magnets. I've sourced dozens of these very thin jobs from Quantum/Maxtor 60-540 Mb 3.5" which are often given away free. *Mind your fingers when playing with these magnets.* Then, open up your alternator and temporarily wire-up the rotor to a modest DC supply, and take note which of the rotor poles is N/S. Mark 'em. Likewise identify the N/S poles of the rare earth magnets. Then you simply epoxy one magnet under each rotor pole, so that the magnet creates the same polarity as that which is electrically generated. (You might even consider dispensing with the energised rotor system all together ?) It isn't essential to have magnets under all poles, just ensure that they are fitted in opposing pairs to ensure reasonable balance of the rotor. There is a down-side. An alternator modified in this way will continue to generate electricity even when your battery is fully charged and the regulator has ceased to supply current to the rotor. I can't see this becoming a problem on a boat, although you might want to fit some kind of charge meter to your batteries to keep an eye on things. (Or make up an external automatic connect/ disconnect circuit ?) However, I seriously suggest you don't modify the alternator fitted to your car (automobile) as you'll almost certainly overcook the battery in summer. Colin| 7112|5777|2005-03-11 05:10:11|sae140|Re: Alternator welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. Not a good choice - I seem to remember Brent mentioning that the OCV was in excess of 100V. I'd recommend a reverse voltage rating of at least twice that to allow for the back-emf spikes caused during inductive connect/ disconnect (which is probably what took the diode pack out). It's possible to get diodes (or thyristors, which are more common at higher voltage and current ratings) in case=anode and case=cathode styles. If you source 3 of each, you can then bolt 'em to the same heatsink without worrying about insulation. The enemies of diodes & thyristors (indeed *all* semiconductors) is excess voltage and heat. The can at the rear is probably a suppressor, to reduce radio interference. At $35, you've certainly had your money's worth Brent ! Colin > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Well I finally cooked the diodes on my alternator welder after six > > months of welding. I got my $35 worth considering it costs $45 a day > > to rent one . I believe that my mistake was switching on the field at > > higher RPM rather than lower. > > I had a set of heavy duty welding diodes off an old commercially > > built welder (diode numbers MR5020 and MR5020L) which was rated 100% > > duty cycle. They were in good sized heat sinks and didn't even get > > warm during a brief welding trial.I hooked them up to my 100 amp > > chrysler alternator and it worked well. I believe this will last far > > longer than the automotive alternator diodes. > > Does any body know what that large capacitor in the back of an > > alternator is for? Is heat the only enemy of diodes ? Will they be > > safe as long as I don't let them get all that hot? > > Brent | 7113|7107|2005-03-11 06:09:15|Gerd|Re: Benefits of twin keels|Thanks Carl, for the link, very good - and there is more interesting stuff on that site. a few rewarks though: > anyway. You don't see fish or sharks swimming around with one fin > poking out the bottom ok, ok, but they don't sail, they are not ballasted and they don't run aground ;-) For cruising the only disadvantage I see running aground in some conditions. I had boats with twin keels, and if you get stuck with them, if it's on hard stone or sand it will shake the fillings out of your teeth, and if it's in mud you are sucked in forever. For modern versions of twin-keels don't forget Jean Pierre Brouns designs at :http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jean-pierre.brouns/ Gerd The YACO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7114|7053|2005-03-11 08:16:43|..|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|Colin, great Idea,was this done on a car alternator? Have you got a photo or sketch,as I am not sure how you did it Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - There is now a simple workaround for this: simply epoxy thin rare- earth magnets from old hard drives (Quantum/Maxtor 60-540 Mb 3.5" are my favourite) under the alternator rotor poles to create a self- starting alternator. Colin --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7115|7115|2005-03-11 15:28:25|carlmbentley|BIG anchor|when i finally finish building i'll be headed for the caribbean which is a hurricane area. i am planning on bringing a large "storm" anchor. without having the "name brand" "knock off" "home made" discussion again, let's assume we're at the weight portion of the decision. what is the accepted school of thought on this. should i go 2 sizes up, heavy as i can lift. is it possible to have too big of an anchor, from a setting point of view ? i realize that the rode would eventually become the weaker link. on another note would intentionally beaching myself in the lee of an island be advisable. i've got two keels -carl (the florida one)| 7116|7116|2005-03-11 16:20:11|Par|hull construction|Hey, I am pricing 3/16 steel plate. I have found .35 to .72 cents a pound. 4 X 8 for the most part, some 5 X 10. All available locally is straight hot rolled, none primed. The cheaper is at a salvage yard with some rust on it. Any worries with the verticle wed joints on the shorter pieces verse trying to get a 40' length??? Any worries about not finding pre-primed steel. Thanks for any input. Par| 7117|7117|2005-03-11 16:21:17|khooper_fboats|Lattice Masts|Has anybody thought of building something like this: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?mcats=all&si=&what=allfields&name=mikejohns&when=&whenterm= More discussion: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3423&goto=nextnewest It's intriguing because it's something the builder can weld up rather than having to buy it. And it's steel. Somebody might remind me that there are scads of used aluminum extrusions out there which need new homes, and I'm sure that's true, but remember that some of us live about 500 miles from the nearest coastline. There are no big used masts *here*. But we have pipe. =^) Comments? Sorry if Yahoo Web Scrabble turns this message into a hash of randomly broken sentence fragments. --Hoop| 7118|7117|2005-03-12 00:00:05|Alex Christie|Re: Lattice Masts|I kind of wonder about the windage (and noise in high winds?) on a lattice mast...a single steel tube mast would be many times simpler and a cause less turbulence at the leading edge of the sail than a lattice mast, improving lift. Dudley Dix has an interesting thing to say about steel masts: I have used steel masts on all of my gaff designs since the early 1980s, with good success. I researched all of the options very early on and found that steel is the best option for a gaff rig. Other designers have also said to me that they will not use steel masts because they are too heavy. I tell them to do the sums, not make incorrect assumptions. See the whole thing at http://dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7119|5777|2005-03-12 03:33:27|jnikadie|Re: Alternator welding - 3 phase rectifier bridges|> > Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. > Not a good choice - I seem to remember Brent mentioning that the OCV > was in excess of 100V. Ah! 100V OCV ... well, yes, that would be a problem! How about these ... (both from canada.neward.com, note that only one bridge would be required, making assembly far easier too): part #: 75C8908 ... 100A Vr=1600V ... CAD $31.35 datasheet: http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/40mt160p.pdf datasheet actually lists welding as an intended application package not too easy to wire up ... it's designed to go on a board part #: 07B3638 ... 110A Vr=800V ... CAD $96.35 datasheet: http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/110mt080kb.pdf screw terminals ... making hook-up very easy insulated case ... joining to heat sink easy| 7120|7116|2005-03-12 03:53:35|blueiceicle|Re: hull construction|Hi Par In my opinion i dont think its advisable or really a feasabile choice to try to weld 4x8's together or 5x10's for the hull plates. When ever you weld two pieces of metal together you get a hard spot, and trying to pull two sheets all welded together from smaller parts might be a problem. they will probaly come together but not with out distortion and looking pretty rough. Of course the looks of your boat are up to you, however the price of getting 6x40's sheets or smaller are small considering the time and hassle it would be to try to weld samller plates together. As far as pre primed goes im wondering the same, i currently work for Samuel steels in edmonton albera, and the only cut to lenght operation they have is in ontario so i would have to pay for freight from ontario to edomonton if wanted 30'x6' sheets. However we have stock 5x10 and 4x10 12g sheets that are nice and clean now rust what so ever. I too have been wondering about using these sheets cause it would cost me 30c/lbs extra to have them pre primed from samuel shipped from ontario. But in the end, i dont think its a good idea to weld sheets together for the hull, that just my opion, and ill leave it up to the more experianced members too fill you in on that, Regards Jesse| 7121|7116|2005-03-12 06:08:34|Gerd|Re: hull construction|Par, getting big sheets is sure better, easier and faster to build. If you can't get them, welding smaller sheets together is possible. I used smaller sheets myself - check out my site. All other non origami hulls are made from smaller sheets, it's just that you miss out on part of the time&effort saving benefits of origami. As for pre-primed, I am not sure it is really worth it, especially if you are not building inside under shelter. Most of the hulls I have seen in preprimed were is such a poor state once finished the metalwork, that personally I would do a complete sandblasting on them anyway - just cleaning them up and painting over does not give you perfect results. Jesse: the hardpoints are not a problem. Actually welding them together on flat ground is much easier and creates less distortion than welding vertical joints in place, in more or less difficult position, with mounting welds etc like you would do this in any other construction method. From my own experience, I think the biggest time saver would be to have perfect cuts, plasma, cnc... a single cnc-cut sheet even with 2 or more darts would come together in 2 hours ;-) Gerd the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ hulls --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Par" wrote: > > Hey, > > I am pricing 3/16 steel plate. I have found .35 to .72 cents a > pound. 4 X 8 for the most part, some 5 X 10. All available locally > is straight hot rolled, none primed. The cheaper is at a salvage > yard with some rust on it. > > Any worries with the verticle wed joints on the shorter pieces verse > trying to get a 40' length??? > > Any worries about not finding pre-primed steel. > > Thanks for any input. > > Par | 7122|7122|2005-03-12 11:25:54|khooper_fboats|Plasma Cutter Cheeeeeeep|Harbor Freight is now carrying an inverter-powered 35-amp plasma cutter for $500 USD. It claims a 40% duty cycle. Weighs less than 30 pounds. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91814 Probably not a suitable machine for a production shop but it may last long enough to get through one boat... --Hoop| 7123|7053|2005-03-12 11:46:03|kendall|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > >>>>>>>>sailboat props are usually designed for lower rpm, > 2500 - 3500 is what most seem to be spec'd at>>>>>>>>>> > Too each his own but I prefer to run my sailboat prop at a very > maximum of 1,000 RPM. > If I were considering an automobile transmission I would be looking > long and hard at an automatic transmission. I can't picture not using > a clutch with a standard transmission and the clutch presents a > problem that I would not want to deal with. Seems that a small hystat > transmission from a small asphalt roller or the like would really be > the hot setup. You could then drive the generator off a fixed shaft > between the hystat and the car motor. > Gerald yeah, my mistake there, lower rpm is needed. Personally I'd stay away from automatics, I dislike them so much that whenever I pick up a car that has an auto in it, I swap it out and convert to a manual, much better on economy, they last far longer than an auto, they also weigh less, and there's no cooling requirements with a manual. there are many ways to hook up a functional clutch, a small hydraulic valve operated by a pushbutton on the shift handle, run with a power steering unit mounted on the engine, that operates a small cylender mounted at the clutch fork, if the power steering unit were large enough, it could also be used to drive many other things on the boat (windlass say)many snowplows, and lift systems use power steering units, small cylenders are cheap, I have a box full of hydraulic and pnuematic that I don't think I have more than $300 into, also, if you have even rudimentary tools available, it is fairly simple to make them up yourself. Strangely, or not so strange if you think about it, old shock absorbers can be turned into low pressure, long throw, dual action hydraulic cylenders in an hour or so at a cost of maybe $8. in materials. ken| 7124|7065|2005-03-12 16:52:27|adam|Re: 1500 PSI Pressure washer pump|OK, I'll bite.... Where can I find details on how to build this watermaker??| 7125|5777|2005-03-12 17:45:42|brentswain38|Re: Alternator welding|My multimeter says 140 volts, which I assume is what they are getting in the reverse direction. What's that little capacitor for in the back of an alternator? Thanks for the info.. I can see an auto diode which usually gets no more than 15 volts would be grossly inadequate. I'm suprised it lasted as long as it did . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > When looking at power diodes there are six things you need to consider: > > - Vf ... the amount of voltage dropped by the diode when current is > passing through it forwards (the normal way). Normally the lower Vf > the better ... more efficient and less heat created. > > - Max current ... even if a diode doesn't get hot, putting too much > current through it could blow it ... I suspect this is what happened > to yours. > > - Max temperature ... just get a big heatsink. > > - "Theta" (both the diode's and the heat sink's) ... the temperature > increase for each watt of energy the diode burns off (look for a diode > with a low theta and a low Vf so that it burns off less energy ... > and, again, just get a big heatsink). > > - Vr - the reverse voltage the diode will resist. > > - Vf increasing with temperature ... if a diode drops more voltage > (burns more energy) as it gets hot there is a risk that it will > "run-away" ... it gets hotter, therefore drops more voltage, therefore > gets hotter ... you see where I'm going! > > PERHAPS (note emphasis on this word!) a diode to consider is the > 175BGQ030 ... (note that I haven't used one, I just know of them and > they seem too good to be true). > > Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. > > However, note that the cathode of this diode is what is to be attached > to the heatsink ... you need to keep the join insulated (electrically, > but not thermally). > > The good: > > - very high current (175A continuous, up to 8000A for spikes!) > - low Vf (efficient and will generate less heat) > - Vf drops with temp (avoiding the run-away) > - low theta > > The bad: > > - cathode attaches to heatsink (need to design around this!) > - high reverse current when hot (OK in this application) > > Datasheet (which has photos) is available at: > http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/175bgq030.pdf > > Digikey currently has 48 of them for CAD $7.37 each, or CAD $5.89 if > you buy 10 of them. > > Search ca.digikey.com for part number 175BGQ030J-ND > > Note that it is the "J" part ... refer to the datasheet ... the longer > lead with the bolt hole would be better ... but digikey is currently > out of stock of all other variants of the BGQ diodes and I can't find > them anywhere else. > > I think a "bolt-'em together" approach would be better than trying to > solder these things to big enough wire ... I think you'd have trouble > getting enough heat to provide a good solder joint without killing the > diodes. > > Good luck. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Well I finally cooked the diodes on my alternator welder after six > > months of welding. I got my $35 worth considering it costs $45 a day > > to rent one . I believe that my mistake was switching on the field at > > higher RPM rather than lower. > > I had a set of heavy duty welding diodes off an old commercially > > built welder (diode numbers MR5020 and MR5020L) which was rated 100% > > duty cycle. They were in good sized heat sinks and didn't even get > > warm during a brief welding trial.I hooked them up to my 100 amp > > chrysler alternator and it worked well. I believe this will last far > > longer than the automotive alternator diodes. > > Does any body know what that large capacitor in the back of an > > alternator is for? Is heat the only enemy of diodes ? Will they be > > safe as long as I don't let them get all that hot? > > Brent | 7126|5777|2005-03-12 17:47:43|brentswain38|Re: Alternator welding|Thanks Colin Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. > > Not a good choice - I seem to remember Brent mentioning that the OCV > was in excess of 100V. I'd recommend a reverse voltage rating of at > least twice that to allow for the back-emf spikes caused during > inductive connect/ disconnect (which is probably what took the diode > pack out). > > It's possible to get diodes (or thyristors, which are more common at > higher voltage and current ratings) in case=anode and case=cathode > styles. If you source 3 of each, you can then bolt 'em to the same > heatsink without worrying about insulation. > > The enemies of diodes & thyristors (indeed *all* semiconductors) is > excess voltage and heat. > > The can at the rear is probably a suppressor, to reduce radio > interference. > > At $35, you've certainly had your money's worth Brent ! > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Well I finally cooked the diodes on my alternator welder after > six > > > months of welding. I got my $35 worth considering it costs $45 a > day > > > to rent one . I believe that my mistake was switching on the > field at > > > higher RPM rather than lower. > > > I had a set of heavy duty welding diodes off an old commercially > > > built welder (diode numbers MR5020 and MR5020L) which was rated > 100% > > > duty cycle. They were in good sized heat sinks and didn't even > get > > > warm during a brief welding trial.I hooked them up to my 100 amp > > > chrysler alternator and it worked well. I believe this will last > far > > > longer than the automotive alternator diodes. > > > Does any body know what that large capacitor in the back of an > > > alternator is for? Is heat the only enemy of diodes ? Will they > be > > > safe as long as I don't let them get all that hot? > > > Brent | 7127|7116|2005-03-12 18:00:00|brentswain38|Re: hull construction|It's very difficult to keep the joints straight. I've found that fully bevelling the top edges of the plate while it is on the ground , for full penetration, welding plates on edge accross the joint every six inches or so to keep it straight, while doing 2 inch welds randomly with 7024 works OK. After the hull is pulled together, you score out the weld from the outside with a 1/8th inch cutting wheel, and do 2 inch uphand welds at 90 amps with a 1/8th inch 6011, letting each 2 inch weld cool before putting another next to it , can result in a reasonably fair result.Bigger plates are always far easier, but if that is not what you can afford, use what you can. A friend bought his deck plates from a scrapyard for 12 cents a pound years ago. We built the deck pannels , then had them sandblasted and primed on the inside before putting them in the hull. You can do the outside after finishing the steelwork, but getting the plate clean and primed on the inside before building is a huge advantage. Using full sized hull plates with scrapyard deck plates is a halfway compromise, which could still save a lot of money. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Par" wrote: > > Hey, > > I am pricing 3/16 steel plate. I have found .35 to .72 cents a > pound. 4 X 8 for the most part, some 5 X 10. All available locally > is straight hot rolled, none primed. The cheaper is at a salvage > yard with some rust on it. > > Any worries with the verticle wed joints on the shorter pieces verse > trying to get a 40' length??? > > Any worries about not finding pre-primed steel. > > Thanks for any input. > > Par | 7128|7116|2005-03-12 18:06:15|brentswain38|Re: hull construction|black iron , primed ,if its clean ,is OK for the inside of the boat.Just use lots of epoxy tar on it after construction, before foaming. It worked OK on my last boat. The trick is to get it primed and thus prevent any rust during construction. Sandblasting the bilges may be a good idea. Distortion in but welds is light year s easier to control with 3/16 than it is with 1/8th plate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > > Hi Par > > In my opinion i dont think its advisable or really a feasabile > choice to try to weld 4x8's together or 5x10's for the hull plates. > When ever you weld two pieces of metal together you get a hard > spot, and trying to pull two sheets all welded together from smaller > parts might be a problem. they will probaly come together but not > with out distortion and looking pretty rough. Of course the looks of > your boat are up to you, however the price of getting 6x40's sheets > or smaller are small considering the time and hassle it would be to > try to weld samller plates together. As far as pre primed goes im > wondering the same, i currently work for Samuel steels in edmonton > albera, and the only cut to lenght operation they have is in ontario > so i would have to pay for freight from ontario to edomonton if > wanted 30'x6' sheets. However we have stock 5x10 and 4x10 12g sheets > that are nice and clean now rust what so ever. I too have been > wondering about using these sheets cause it would cost me 30c/lbs > extra to have them pre primed from samuel shipped from ontario. > > But in the end, i dont think its a good idea to weld sheets together > for the hull, that just my opion, and ill leave it up to the more > experianced members too fill you in on that, > > Regards Jesse | 7129|7065|2005-03-12 18:07:01|brentswain38|Re: 1500 PSI Pressure washer pump|My book has the info on how to build the watermaker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > OK, I'll bite.... > > Where can I find details on how to build this watermaker?? | 7130|7116|2005-03-12 18:50:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: hull construction|Par, I welded two sheets together for the hull sides and I would not recommend it, especially if, like me, you are not a skilled welder. I would make a better job now, because I have more experience. I bought the steel un-primed because when I asked the steel stockholder about what type of primer was used, they said I could have red primer or grey primer and I gathered from this that they were not interested in the quality of the job. After I had fabricated the boat components, hull halves, keels, skeg, rudder deck pieces etc, I left them to rust off the mill scale to make it quicker and therefore cheaper for them to be blasted and then blasted and primed them and am now in the process of welding them together. If I was to do it again, I would take more time to search out a source of full size sheets and have them pre-cut to the pattern at least. Unless I found a stockholder that offered quality assurance on his priming I would not have the sheets pre-primed. Regards, Ted| 7131|7115|2005-03-13 10:37:28|seeratlas|Re: BIG anchor|I think you are doing the right thing in asking for as much input as you can get on this subject and trying to look at it from a lot of different angles. My own suggestions are as follow, and I'll be as interested as you are in learning from what the others on the board have to offer. I was told long ago to get the "biggest one you can lift" ..I'm no longer sure this is such a good idea. "IF" you have plenty of warning, the weather hasn't gone bad yet, the seas are calm etc.; and "IF" you are strong, in good health etc., then its ok to be messing around with a big anchor. HOWEVER, trying to muscle one around in a seaway, or gale you can really injure yourself, the boat, and/or anyone trying to help you (read "the little woman"). For that reason, I'm a fan of the takedown type anchors where you take them where you want to go, put it together and toss it over the side. This is VERY useful for kedging around when you have to take the anchor out in the dinghy. Second, weight isn't the only factor, matching the bottom to the design of the anchor goes a long way towards and in many instances exceeds the holding ability of the anchor based solely on weight. For myself I ended up with big plows, easy to mount on the bow and stern, didn't have to muscle em around the deck and they were ready to go at a moment's notice. I carried a big danforth and a take down old design 'fisherman' type in the lazarette for additional help in a storm. Now, on grounding, my boats having all been fibreglass, grounding was something i was avoiding as opposed to seeking out :) From what i've heard, been told, read, speculated, and 'run the film in my mind'...I've come to the following conclusions: I think the steel twin keel/shallow draft configuration opens up a world of possibilities. I also think that conditions at the time and place of the situations you describe will dictate the proper course of action. I.e., there is no 'hard and fast' rule to make the call under all conditions. Some possibilities? Well think them thru. If you're in the Carribs, a BIG storm is coming and you're on the lee side of an island ? Well, if you're going to stay in the water, then get lots of room away from other boats. I've found that if you assume and plan for the possibility that everyone else is going to do something stupid, i.e. not put out enough rode, wrong anchor, too much scope, whatever could create the worst possible danger to you and your boat, then you will rarely be surprised, except pleasantly when they do something right :) heheheh. If you've got a mountain between you and the storm, consider the fact that the wind may come shooting over the top of that thing, funnel down the hillside picking up velocity and various projectiles along the way, and then slam into you with far more impact than if you were out in the open..... I've had this happen camping on the beach in Mexico. Sounded like a freightrain coming. When it hit, it exploded the poles in my tent instantly creating what the locals called a "tortilla tent" :) heheh. I've heard people talk about running up into river mouths, but for me I'd think about the type of river. Big storms usually bring big rain which means flooding which means that river is going to get bigger, deeper and faster in a hurry....AND may very well fill up with little things like tree trunks, mud, boulders....things that will really knock the stuffing out of any boat, and most certainly break you loose from your mooring. On the other hand, that's unlikely to happen in a mangrove swamp type river mouth where both water and wind velocity will be tempered by all the foliage. Don't forget to consider tidal range and storm surge in front of the advancing storm too, water levels could go up ten's of feet.... Lastly, In a really bad situation, and given the right topography and equiptment (read BIG STRONG winches and equally strong points to tie them too...I would seriously consider finding some logs/poles/skids...and winching my whole boat up the beach out of the water to some sheltered and protected area. Making sure that after the storm passes, I'm going to be able to find my way back to the ocean :) My thinking on grounding runs basically along the lines of you either want to have plenty of depth beneath the keel, or none at all. It's that inbetween zone that will trash you're boat :) I'd study the damage done recently in Florida where boats were heaved out of the water onto the land, and other boats. Also look at those far more in number that were slammed into by other boats that got loose etc. In a crowded harbor with a big blow approaching, I think I'd either get to the hard, or somewhere less crowded if I had the time. All sailors need to constantly be planning ahead, forseeing possible problems and difficult situations, identifying them, and avoiding them before they happen. The options open to you are the same as any other sailor, just having twin keels and a steel hull gives you a few more options to make it a lot easier :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" wrote: > > when i finally finish building i'll be headed for the caribbean which > is a hurricane area. i am planning on bringing a large "storm" anchor. > > without having the "name brand" "knock off" "home made" discussion > again, let's assume we're at the weight portion of the decision. > > what is the accepted school of thought on this. should i go 2 sizes > up, heavy as i can lift. is it possible to have too big of an anchor, > from a setting point of view ? > > i realize that the rode would eventually become the weaker link. > > on another note would intentionally beaching myself in the lee of an > island be advisable. > > i've got two keels > > -carl (the florida one) | 7132|7117|2005-03-13 11:29:44|seeratlas|Re: Lattice Masts|Didn't someone build a swain with a stainless steel mast? I wonder how that worked out? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I kind of wonder about the windage (and noise in high winds?) on a > lattice mast...a single steel tube mast would be many times simpler and > a cause less turbulence at the leading edge of the sail than a lattice > mast, improving lift. > > Dudley Dix has an interesting thing to say about steel masts: > > I have used steel masts on all of my gaff designs since the early > 1980s, with good success. I researched all of the options very early on > and found that steel is the best option for a gaff rig. Other designers > have also said to me that they will not use steel masts because they > are too heavy. I tell them to do the sums, not make incorrect > assumptions. > > See the whole thing at http://dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7133|7065|2005-03-13 15:55:43|adam|Re: 1500 PSI Pressure washer pump|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My book has the info on how to build the watermaker. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > > > OK, I'll bite.... > > > > Where can I find details on how to build this watermaker?? Ok, sorry, but as a bit of a newbie, I need to ask this.... Where can I get a copy of the book?| 7134|5777|2005-03-13 17:41:47|brentswain38|Re: Alternator welding - 3 phase rectifier bridges|Given that diodes are not all that expensive, is there any harm in going for a huge overkill with the size and capacity of ther diodes? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. > > > Not a good choice - I seem to remember Brent mentioning that the OCV > > was in excess of 100V. > > Ah! 100V OCV ... well, yes, that would be a problem! > > How about these ... (both from canada.neward.com, note that only one > bridge would be required, making assembly far easier too): > > part #: 75C8908 ... 100A Vr=1600V ... CAD $31.35 > datasheet: http://www.irf.com/product- info/datasheets/data/40mt160p.pdf > datasheet actually lists welding as an intended application > package not too easy to wire up ... it's designed to go on a board > > part #: 07B3638 ... 110A Vr=800V ... CAD $96.35 > datasheet: http://www.irf.com/product- info/datasheets/data/110mt080kb.pdf > screw terminals ... making hook-up very easy > insulated case ... joining to heat sink easy | 7135|7135|2005-03-13 20:08:43|Matt|portholes in the hull sides|Hi Gerd, I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd have to design portholes into the hull sides. If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, and do away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot of thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple hull, from the template in the files section of this group, with higher sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before respondents to my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, except for you, who seem to support flush decks. So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches to the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for strength), and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there must be some other objection - aesthetics? I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, etc... And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? Cheers, Matt Australia| 7136|5777|2005-03-13 22:26:49|jnikadie|Re: Alternator welding - 3 phase rectifier bridges|The short answer is: no, over engineer and you'll probably be fine. The longer answer is that you would need to consider Vf (the voltage drop over the diode as current flows through it in the forward direction) ... "bigger" diodes tend to have a larger Vf. This probably doesn't matter in terms of efficiency; you'll still have enough energy for the task at hand. But, if a diode has a large Vf you may need to do some sums in regard to heat dissipation ... if you're running 100A continuous through a diode, the difference between a Vf of 0.6v and 1.1v is 50w ... if the diode is not very good at dissipating that heat, or is on too small a heat sink, it may overheat. If you compare a "small" diode (just big enough) with a "big" one, and they have similar Vf specs ... go for the bigger diode. If you compare a small diode with say a Vf of 0.6v with a big one with Vf of 1.75v you need to think about the extra heat created by burning off the extra 1.15v. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Given that diodes are not all that expensive, is there any harm in > going for a huge overkill with the size and capacity of ther diodes? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > > > Rated at 175 amps ... resists 30V in the wrong direction. > > > > > Not a good choice - I seem to remember Brent mentioning that the > OCV > > > was in excess of 100V. > > > > Ah! 100V OCV ... well, yes, that would be a problem! > > > > How about these ... (both from canada.neward.com, note that only one > > bridge would be required, making assembly far easier too): > > > > part #: 75C8908 ... 100A Vr=1600V ... CAD $31.35 > > datasheet: http://www.irf.com/product- > info/datasheets/data/40mt160p.pdf > > datasheet actually lists welding as an intended application > > package not too easy to wire up ... it's designed to go on a board > > > > part #: 07B3638 ... 110A Vr=800V ... CAD $96.35 > > datasheet: http://www.irf.com/product- > info/datasheets/data/110mt080kb.pdf > > screw terminals ... making hook-up very easy > > insulated case ... joining to heat sink easy | 7137|7135|2005-03-14 03:25:10|Gerd|Re: portholes in the hull sides|Matt, it's about weight and windage. Weight: In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although the surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised hull sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have been. It's really not a significant difference. You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the CG. Windage: I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less you would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a steppedhull/side decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along windage can e significantly higher. There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage and weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets to find working compromises. Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in origamimagic.com, with the added dart cut on the topsides. Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but visually it makes all the difference. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Hi Gerd, > I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you > mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd have to > design portholes into the hull sides. > If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, and do > away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot of > thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple hull, > from the template in the files section of this group, with higher > sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before respondents to > my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, except > for you, who seem to support flush decks. > So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches to > the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in > portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for strength), > and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there must > be some other objection - aesthetics? > I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, etc... > And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > Cheers, > Matt > Australia | 7138|7135|2005-03-14 04:02:56|Alex Christie|flush-decked boats|I'm sort of repeating a post from a similar discussion we had before on flush-deckers, but here is my take on it again: We used to have a 36' flush-decked boat that we lived on, and it was fantastic for interior space while we lived tied to a dock. Under way, we only motored that boat as it did not have a real rig, and I can see now that it would have been very difficult, if not dangerous, to make our my way forward (I basically had to handle the boat solo with wife and infants below) while under sail and heeled over, with nothing but a single deck surface sloping to leeward and Davey Jones' Locker. On the flat seas, the deck was a great "aircraft carrier"! A cabin boat, by contrast, gives you a nice "groove" to walk along in safety when heeled. On the remote chance you are wounded through unfortunate circumstance, you can rest your battered body, even if briefly unconscious or in a weakened state, in that same "groove" offered by the meeting of the cabinside and deck, and expect to find yourself in the same position when you come to, as opposed to having a view of your transom as it pulls away in the distance. As a passenger on sailboats I have always appreciated having a place to socket myself securely and enjoy the ride, instead of being confined to the cockpit as you would be on a flush-decked boat, and it is a consideration I keep in mind for my kids, who are always touring various parts of the ship when under way. The windage of our flush-decker was pretty extreme, like a giant sail and added a challenge to maneuvering around docks in windy conditions. I have seen flush-decked boat designs used commonly by solo sailors with Junk rigs on various missions to make trans-Atlantic crossings and such, where you don't often have to go forward, if ever, under sail. This is a very different class of boat compared to your average offshore cruiser with a crew of two or more. The only time you could avoid raising the centre of gravity is by making your flush deck no higher than the deck would be on a cabin boat, in which case you lose head-room. There are many older day-sailer or weekender boats like this which have been relatively successful performers, but only because people are willing to crouch for a short time, and didn't require standing head-room on short jaunts. This again is a very different class of sailboat compared to the cruising offshore yacht. I once observed a steel boat which raised sides and flush deck (ie, sides raised to the same height as a cabin would be), just sitting at a dock in Ontario, heaving side to side on its own under flat conditions, as if an unseen hand were pushing it. It was almost sickening to watch as it lurched and rolled in this ghostly way. While I concluded that there may have been other factors in the design contributing to this strange behaviour, I did have to wonder about what all that steel raised up high AND on the very outer edges of the vessel did to the CG. And don't forget, having a band of 3/16" steel raised all around the hull for a flush decker is going to bring more weight up higher than a cabin top made of 1/8" steel that is additionally closer to the centre-line of the hull. That boat I saw would have been an irritating nightmare to live on, but perhaps good training for getting used to sea-sickness! Brent made some comments about the difficulty of strengthening a flush-decked boat, too - check it out in the archives. Alex On 14-Mar-05, at 12:23 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > Weight: > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although the > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised hull > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have been. > It's really not a significant difference. > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the CG. > > Windage: > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less you > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a steppedhull/side > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along > windage can e significantly higher. > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage and > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets to > find working compromises. > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in origamimagic.com, > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > visually it makes all the difference. > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: >> >> Hi Gerd, >> I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you >> mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd have > to >> design portholes into the hull sides. >> If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, and > do >> away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot of >> thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple > hull, >> from the template in the files section of this group, with higher >> sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. >> When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before respondents > to >> my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > except >> for you, who seem to support flush decks. >> So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches to >> the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in >> portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > strength), >> and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? >> So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > must >> be some other objection - aesthetics? >> I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > etc... >> And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? >> Cheers, >> Matt >> Australia > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7139|7135|2005-03-14 12:39:36|richytill|Re: flush-decked boats|Alex, these are good points. There is one item I am trying to better understand tho'. You mentioned pretty extreme windage with your 36'-- did that boat have the deck raised above the bulwark cap? Or, how could a flush deck have more windage if it does not have cabin sides presenting surface area to the wind? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I'm sort of repeating a post from a similar discussion we had before on > flush-deckers, but here is my take on it again: > > We used to have a 36' flush-decked boat that we lived on, and it was > fantastic for interior space while we lived tied to a dock. Under way, > we only motored that boat as it did not have a real rig, and I can see > now that it would have been very difficult, if not dangerous, to make > our my way forward (I basically had to handle the boat solo with wife > and infants below) while under sail and heeled over, with nothing but a > single deck surface sloping to leeward and Davey Jones' Locker. On the > flat seas, the deck was a great "aircraft carrier"! A cabin boat, by > contrast, gives you a nice "groove" to walk along in safety when > heeled. On the remote chance you are wounded through unfortunate > circumstance, you can rest your battered body, even if briefly > unconscious or in a weakened state, in that same "groove" offered by > the meeting of the cabinside and deck, and expect to find yourself in > the same position when you come to, as opposed to having a view of your > transom as it pulls away in the distance. As a passenger on sailboats > I have always appreciated having a place to socket myself securely and > enjoy the ride, instead of being confined to the cockpit as you would > be on a flush-decked boat, and it is a consideration I keep in mind for > my kids, who are always touring various parts of the ship when under > way. > > The windage of our flush-decker was pretty extreme, like a giant sail > and added a challenge to maneuvering around docks in windy conditions. > > I have seen flush-decked boat designs used commonly by solo sailors > with Junk rigs on various missions to make trans-Atlantic crossings and > such, where you don't often have to go forward, if ever, under sail. > This is a very different class of boat compared to your average > offshore cruiser with a crew of two or more. > > The only time you could avoid raising the centre of gravity is by > making your flush deck no higher than the deck would be on a cabin > boat, in which case you lose head-room. There are many older > day-sailer or weekender boats like this which have been relatively > successful performers, but only because people are willing to crouch > for a short time, and didn't require standing head-room on short > jaunts. This again is a very different class of sailboat compared to > the cruising offshore yacht. > > I once observed a steel boat which raised sides and flush deck (ie, > sides raised to the same height as a cabin would be), just sitting at a > dock in Ontario, heaving side to side on its own under flat conditions, > as if an unseen hand were pushing it. It was almost sickening to watch > as it lurched and rolled in this ghostly way. While I concluded that > there may have been other factors in the design contributing to this > strange behaviour, I did have to wonder about what all that steel > raised up high AND on the very outer edges of the vessel did to the CG. > And don't forget, having a band of 3/16" steel raised all around the > hull for a flush decker is going to bring more weight up higher than a > cabin top made of 1/8" steel that is additionally closer to the > centre-line of the hull. That boat I saw would have been an irritating > nightmare to live on, but perhaps good training for getting used to > sea-sickness! > > Brent made some comments about the difficulty of strengthening a > flush-decked boat, too - check it out in the archives. > > Alex > > > On 14-Mar-05, at 12:23 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > > > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > > Weight: > > > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a > > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although the > > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised hull > > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have been. > > It's really not a significant difference. > > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add > > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the CG. > > > > Windage: > > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less you > > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a steppedhull/side > > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along > > windage can e significantly higher. > > > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage and > > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets to > > find working compromises. > > > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to > > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in origamimagic.com, > > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so > > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > > visually it makes all the difference. > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > >> > >> Hi Gerd, > >> I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you > >> mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd have > > to > >> design portholes into the hull sides. > >> If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, and > > do > >> away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot of > >> thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple > > hull, > >> from the template in the files section of this group, with higher > >> sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > >> When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before respondents > > to > >> my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > > except > >> for you, who seem to support flush decks. > >> So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches to > >> the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in > >> portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > > strength), > >> and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > >> So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > > must > >> be some other objection - aesthetics? > >> I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > > etc... > >> And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > >> Cheers, > >> Matt > >> Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7140|7135|2005-03-14 13:00:54|Gerd|Re: flush-decked boats|Alex, it depends on the design. If you would take your hull, and raise it over the entire forward area to the height of your cabin-roof, you would indeed have more weight and more windage, BUT you have to deduct the weight and windage of the cabin-sides and possibly part of the bulwarks from it. If your flushdeck is sloping low down on the outsides, this difference is even getting smaller. As to safety: I have said that before, but on my 10m former boat I had an extreme flushdeck, with a very shallow cockpit well, and felt very safe working on the deck, altough I have to admit that it was wet at times, that's why this time there is shelter behind the cabin- bulkhead. The only thing I regretted was that there was not more camber, because when heeling, to windward it is easy to walk and work on deck because due to the slope this is mostly flat and level, and to leeward I feel MUCH safer to stand in the bulwarks and to be able to lean back against the uncluttered deck rather than having to crouch under the overhanging cabin sides, that is for sure the one place on a boat in rough weather I do not like at all. Having the freedom to move and to plant myself efficiently and solidly on a flat surface is for me the most important thing in bad weather. I do understand that high cabin gives a protected FEELING, but this is my personal experience, I prefer either a cambered flush deck or a very low cabin. Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > I'm sort of repeating a post from a similar discussion we had > before on > > flush-deckers, but here is my take on it again: > > > > We used to have a 36' flush-decked boat that we lived on, and it > was > > fantastic for interior space while we lived tied to a dock. Under > way, > > we only motored that boat as it did not have a real rig, and I can > see > > now that it would have been very difficult, if not dangerous, to > make > > our my way forward (I basically had to handle the boat solo with > wife > > and infants below) while under sail and heeled over, with nothing > but a > > single deck surface sloping to leeward and Davey Jones' Locker. On > the > > flat seas, the deck was a great "aircraft carrier"! A cabin boat, > by > > contrast, gives you a nice "groove" to walk along in safety when > > heeled. On the remote chance you are wounded through unfortunate > > circumstance, you can rest your battered body, even if briefly > > unconscious or in a weakened state, in that same "groove" offered > by > > the meeting of the cabinside and deck, and expect to find yourself > in > > the same position when you come to, as opposed to having a view of > your > > transom as it pulls away in the distance. As a passenger on > sailboats > > I have always appreciated having a place to socket myself securely > and > > enjoy the ride, instead of being confined to the cockpit as you > would > > be on a flush-decked boat, and it is a consideration I keep in mind > for > > my kids, who are always touring various parts of the ship when > under > > way. > > > > The windage of our flush-decker was pretty extreme, like a giant > sail > > and added a challenge to maneuvering around docks in windy > conditions. > > > > I have seen flush-decked boat designs used commonly by solo sailors > > with Junk rigs on various missions to make trans-Atlantic crossings > and > > such, where you don't often have to go forward, if ever, under > sail. > > This is a very different class of boat compared to your average > > offshore cruiser with a crew of two or more. > > > > The only time you could avoid raising the centre of gravity is by > > making your flush deck no higher than the deck would be on a cabin > > boat, in which case you lose head-room. There are many older > > day-sailer or weekender boats like this which have been relatively > > successful performers, but only because people are willing to > crouch > > for a short time, and didn't require standing head-room on short > > jaunts. This again is a very different class of sailboat compared > to > > the cruising offshore yacht. > > > > I once observed a steel boat which raised sides and flush deck (ie, > > sides raised to the same height as a cabin would be), just sitting > at a > > dock in Ontario, heaving side to side on its own under flat > conditions, > > as if an unseen hand were pushing it. It was almost sickening to > watch > > as it lurched and rolled in this ghostly way. While I concluded > that > > there may have been other factors in the design contributing to > this > > strange behaviour, I did have to wonder about what all that steel > > raised up high AND on the very outer edges of the vessel did to the > CG. > > And don't forget, having a band of 3/16" steel raised all around > the > > hull for a flush decker is going to bring more weight up higher > than a > > cabin top made of 1/8" steel that is additionally closer to the > > centre-line of the hull. That boat I saw would have been an > irritating > > nightmare to live on, but perhaps good training for getting used to > > sea-sickness! > > > > Brent made some comments about the difficulty of strengthening a > > flush-decked boat, too - check it out in the archives. > > > > Alex > > > > > > On 14-Mar-05, at 12:23 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > > > Weight: > > > > > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a > > > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although > the > > > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised > hull > > > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have been. > > > It's really not a significant difference. > > > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add > > > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the > CG. > > > > > > Windage: > > > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less > you > > > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a steppedhull/side > > > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along > > > windage can e significantly higher. > > > > > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage > and > > > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets > to > > > find working compromises. > > > > > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to > > > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in > origamimagic.com, > > > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > > > > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > > > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so > > > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > > > visually it makes all the difference. > > > > > > Gerd > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Gerd, > > >> I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you > > >> mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd > have > > > to > > >> design portholes into the hull sides. > > >> If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, > and > > > do > > >> away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot > of > > >> thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple > > > hull, > > >> from the template in the files section of this group, with higher > > >> sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > > >> When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before > respondents > > > to > > >> my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > > > except > > >> for you, who seem to support flush decks. > > >> So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches > to > > >> the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in > > >> portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > > > strength), > > >> and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > > >> So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > > > must > > >> be some other objection - aesthetics? > > >> I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > > > etc... > > >> And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > > >> Cheers, > > >> Matt > > >> Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7141|7141|2005-03-14 14:19:18|rcook222003|COST OF STEEL|In the eastern U.S. can anyone give me the going rate for steel hull plate 4, 6 and 8mm and a source? Thanks. Ron Cook| 7142|7135|2005-03-14 15:34:52|Alex Christie|Re: flush-decked boats|Regarding Rich's question about my boat, my flush deck had extreme windage because the sides were well above the level that a bulwark cap would have been, and it was probably higher on this boat than many cabin tops (again, it made for fantastic headroom and live-aboard space inside). I should have mentioned too that my boat was not a sailboat but a 36' British aft pilot-house motor cruiser converted from a surplus teak-hulled 1941 British Royal Navy pinnace (like a big ship-to-shore gig, the kind they used to anchor barrage balloons in Portsmouth harbour). It was basically an oversized teak Whitehall-style rowing boat with built up riveted duraluminum flush cabin and deck on top. She had a long, shallow keel that ran from stem to stern, with all ballast inside in the form of iron pigs. The end result was a tender boat with very little hull in the water and lots of cabin above (unlike a sailboat), and very tender -- not a good candidate for a high flush deck. In other words, she was a bit of a freak, but I mentioned her to illustrate an extreme, not the norm. On the face of it I am comparing an apple to an orange, as a sailboat with a properly designed flush-decked sailboat's deck height wouldn't be as high off the water as my boat's deck was. What she did teach me was how a boat behaves when a certain aspect of the design is pushed to an extreme. I think we learn as much from boats which have failings as we do from boats which are successful designs, which is why I'm glad to have owned that odd liveaboard boat. When you pull back from the extreme, with careful attention to the physics of a buoyant mass moving through a dynamic fluid environment, then all sorts of compromises can be made which allow you to attain what you want, including a flush-decked boat. As Gerd said, a properly cambered top should mean less raised weight than expected -- my decks were minimally cambered, as opposed to a good Phil Bolger design (he has done many great flush-deck designs). Gerd consciously and wisely engineered his design with the intent of a flush deck from the start, but it is astounding how many potential boatbuilders propose changes which are entirely out of keeping with sane design principles, often with disastrous results, including loss of life . It is so easy to turn a good boat into a bad one with a few false steps (excess weight in the ends of boats is one the most common mistakes, thankfully easily remedied in most cases) whose implications should have been more thoroughly reasoned before making a commitment. My main concern is that some people might mistakenly think that raising the hull sides of a Brent boat 1 foot all around would yield a boat which behaves exactly the same as a boat of the same design with a regular 1/8th inch cabin top whose weight is additionally brought inboard. The difference in weight between two identically-sized pieces of 3/16th inch and 1/8 inch steel is immediately apparent when you pick them up in your hands. The 1/8 piece feels almost like a piece of cardboard compared to the 3/16" (well, at least it does after lugging 3/16" piece around all day). It looks like Gerd weighed (pun) these considerations carefully in his planning stages with success. Alex| 7143|7143|2005-03-14 16:11:15|Puck III|Flushdeck Design Considerations .|Hi Alex , Gerd & Matt in Australia , designing & building towards a flushdeck without raising the CG and creating windage is not realy new . Many boats where build like that sinds years , I posted 10 photos , plans & info about how it's done in the Folder : " Flushdeck , Wide & Stand-in Keels " in Files in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ all selfexplaining cause a drawing or a pic is worth many many many words :-) Aint this Group popular these days ? As soon as one is designed & build in Steel or Alu Origami it's gone be in the Topic in here anyway . All you have to do realy is defining the proper numbers from an Hydrostatic point of vieuw. Elements de vitesse des carènes by JM Finot ( the book's Cover Pic is in there to ) certainly gives an insight how to go about that . In need of a pretty wheelhouse idea ? Simple go to the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ Repository and find what you like :-) please do not forget the volume of the superstructures does a lot for the righting moment :-) Selfrighting totaly ? It sure aint a crime to design towards that. I hope this helps in your discussion. Old Ben PS : I d' love all your input ,info & directions about Origami in general , please do not forget me guys . What's the old saying again ? L'Onion fait la Farce ? or was it ..........| 7144|7144|2005-03-14 17:29:26|J & H Fuller|BS 36' engine|Alex, If you are still looking for an engine there is a running 87 Nissan Sentra diesel here in Campbell River- 286 6836 - It's a 1600cc 4cyl 5speed. $300 and the guy is open to offers as he is moving this week !!! John. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.2 - Release Date: 11/03/2005| 7145|7135|2005-03-14 17:37:31|brentswain38|Re: portholes in the hull sides|Construction wise , flush decks are far more difficult as parts ar much bigger and thus heavier, and with such large expanses unstiffened by corners such as cabinsides , distortion is a much greater liklihood. Raising the 3/16th topsides , cockpit, wheelhouse , foredeck, and the side decks is a serious reduction in stability. Straddling a flush deck when it is heeled 25 degrees with nothing but open space between you and the sea is dnagerous.It feels liike trying to straddle a whale. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > Weight: > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although the > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised hull > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have been. > It's really not a significant difference. > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the CG. > > Windage: > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less you > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a steppedhull/side > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along > windage can e significantly higher. > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage and > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets to > find working compromises. > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in origamimagic.com, > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > visually it makes all the difference. > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > Hi Gerd, > > I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you > > mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd have > to > > design portholes into the hull sides. > > If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, and > do > > away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot of > > thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple > hull, > > from the template in the files section of this group, with higher > > sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > > When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before respondents > to > > my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > except > > for you, who seem to support flush decks. > > So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches to > > the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in > > portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > strength), > > and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > > So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > must > > be some other objection - aesthetics? > > I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > etc... > > And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > > Cheers, > > Matt > > Australia | 7146|7135|2005-03-14 17:40:54|brentswain38|Re: flush-decked boats|Cabin sides weigh little. Straddling a flat surface which is heled 25 degrees feels percarious. Btent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Alex, it depends on the design. > > If you would take your hull, and raise it over the entire forward > area to the height of your cabin-roof, you would indeed have more > weight and more windage, BUT you have to deduct the weight and > windage of the cabin-sides and possibly part of the bulwarks from it. > If your flushdeck is sloping low down on the outsides, this > difference is even getting smaller. > > As to safety: I have said that before, but on my 10m former boat I > had an extreme flushdeck, with a very shallow cockpit well, and felt > very safe working on the deck, altough I have to admit that it was > wet at times, that's why this time there is shelter behind the cabin- > bulkhead. The only thing I regretted was that there was not more > camber, because when heeling, to windward it is easy to walk and > work on deck because due to the slope this is mostly flat and level, > and to leeward I feel MUCH safer to stand in the bulwarks and to be > able to lean back against the uncluttered deck rather than having to > crouch under the overhanging cabin sides, that is for sure the one > place on a boat in rough weather I do not like at all. > Having the freedom to move and to plant myself efficiently and > solidly on a flat surface is for me the most important thing in bad > weather. I do understand that high cabin gives a protected FEELING, > but this is my personal experience, I prefer either a cambered flush > deck or a very low cabin. > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > > > wrote: > > > I'm sort of repeating a post from a similar discussion we had > > before on > > > flush-deckers, but here is my take on it again: > > > > > > We used to have a 36' flush-decked boat that we lived on, and it > > was > > > fantastic for interior space while we lived tied to a dock. > Under > > way, > > > we only motored that boat as it did not have a real rig, and I > can > > see > > > now that it would have been very difficult, if not dangerous, to > > make > > > our my way forward (I basically had to handle the boat solo with > > wife > > > and infants below) while under sail and heeled over, with > nothing > > but a > > > single deck surface sloping to leeward and Davey Jones' Locker. > On > > the > > > flat seas, the deck was a great "aircraft carrier"! A cabin > boat, > > by > > > contrast, gives you a nice "groove" to walk along in safety when > > > heeled. On the remote chance you are wounded through > unfortunate > > > circumstance, you can rest your battered body, even if briefly > > > unconscious or in a weakened state, in that same "groove" > offered > > by > > > the meeting of the cabinside and deck, and expect to find > yourself > > in > > > the same position when you come to, as opposed to having a view > of > > your > > > transom as it pulls away in the distance. As a passenger on > > sailboats > > > I have always appreciated having a place to socket myself > securely > > and > > > enjoy the ride, instead of being confined to the cockpit as you > > would > > > be on a flush-decked boat, and it is a consideration I keep in > mind > > for > > > my kids, who are always touring various parts of the ship when > > under > > > way. > > > > > > The windage of our flush-decker was pretty extreme, like a giant > > sail > > > and added a challenge to maneuvering around docks in windy > > conditions. > > > > > > I have seen flush-decked boat designs used commonly by solo > sailors > > > with Junk rigs on various missions to make trans-Atlantic > crossings > > and > > > such, where you don't often have to go forward, if ever, under > > sail. > > > This is a very different class of boat compared to your average > > > offshore cruiser with a crew of two or more. > > > > > > The only time you could avoid raising the centre of gravity is > by > > > making your flush deck no higher than the deck would be on a > cabin > > > boat, in which case you lose head-room. There are many older > > > day-sailer or weekender boats like this which have been > relatively > > > successful performers, but only because people are willing to > > crouch > > > for a short time, and didn't require standing head-room on > short > > > jaunts. This again is a very different class of sailboat > compared > > to > > > the cruising offshore yacht. > > > > > > I once observed a steel boat which raised sides and flush deck > (ie, > > > sides raised to the same height as a cabin would be), just > sitting > > at a > > > dock in Ontario, heaving side to side on its own under flat > > conditions, > > > as if an unseen hand were pushing it. It was almost sickening to > > watch > > > as it lurched and rolled in this ghostly way. While I concluded > > that > > > there may have been other factors in the design contributing to > > this > > > strange behaviour, I did have to wonder about what all that > steel > > > raised up high AND on the very outer edges of the vessel did to > the > > CG. > > > And don't forget, having a band of 3/16" steel raised all > around > > the > > > hull for a flush decker is going to bring more weight up higher > > than a > > > cabin top made of 1/8" steel that is additionally closer to the > > > centre-line of the hull. That boat I saw would have been an > > irritating > > > nightmare to live on, but perhaps good training for getting used > to > > > sea-sickness! > > > > > > Brent made some comments about the difficulty of strengthening a > > > flush-decked boat, too - check it out in the archives. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > On 14-Mar-05, at 12:23 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > > > > Weight: > > > > > > > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually > a > > > > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because > although > > the > > > > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised > > hull > > > > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have > been. > > > > It's really not a significant difference. > > > > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would > add > > > > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise > the > > CG. > > > > > > > > Windage: > > > > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised > less > > you > > > > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a > steppedhull/side > > > > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all > along > > > > windage can e significantly higher. > > > > > > > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep > windage > > and > > > > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it > gets > > to > > > > find working compromises. > > > > > > > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want > to > > > > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in > > origamimagic.com, > > > > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > > > > > > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > > > > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" > so > > > > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > > > > visually it makes all the difference. > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hi Gerd, > > > >> I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed > you > > > >> mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd > > have > > > > to > > > >> design portholes into the hull sides. > > > >> If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides > higher, > > and > > > > do > > > >> away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a > lot > > of > > > >> thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a > simple > > > > hull, > > > >> from the template in the files section of this group, with > higher > > > >> sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > > > >> When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before > > respondents > > > > to > > > >> my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > > > > except > > > >> for you, who seem to support flush decks. > > > >> So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 > inches > > to > > > >> the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting > in > > > >> portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > > > > strength), > > > >> and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > > > >> So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > > > > must > > > >> be some other objection - aesthetics? > > > >> I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > > > > etc... > > > >> And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > > > >> Cheers, > > > >> Matt > > > >> Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7147|7147|2005-03-14 20:38:37|Gerald Niffenegger|wood stove question|A question for the wood stove experts. I would like to install a wood stove in my boat. The stove pipe would exit straight out the back of the small fire box and would rise 50 cm above horizontal in the first 1.5 meters. The pipe makes a 30 deg. turn and rises again 50 cm in another 1.5 meters where it enters an elbow and from there goes straight up for 1.5 meters. I will most often run a diesel burner. However, I want the ability to burn wood. 1. Will the piping described remove the wood smoke? 2. What size stove pipe should I use? Gerald| 7148|7135|2005-03-14 22:00:06|Matt|Re: portholes in the hull sides|Thanks everyone, What i was trying to imagine was raising the 3/16th topsides, losing the cabin, recessing the foredeck, and plonking the wheelhouse onto the flush deck - not actually raising the whole shebang one foot. I'm yet to do much modelling, but i suspect that non-cambered topsides/deck (i.e. no tumblehome) will look goofy - best to make a model and see what it looks like. Gerd, i couldn't see any raised deck designs on origamimagic.com, did i miss them? Cheers, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Construction wise , flush decks are far more difficult as parts ar > much bigger and thus heavier, and with such large expanses > unstiffened by corners such as cabinsides , distortion is a much > greater liklihood. Raising the 3/16th topsides , cockpit, > wheelhouse , foredeck, and the side decks is a serious reduction in > stability. Straddling a flush deck when it is heeled 25 degrees with > nothing but open space between you and the sea is dnagerous.It feels > liike trying to straddle a whale. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > > Weight: > > > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a > > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although the > > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised hull > > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have been. > > It's really not a significant difference. > > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add > > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the CG. > > > > Windage: > > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less you > > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a steppedhull/side > > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along > > windage can e significantly higher. > > > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage and > > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets > to > > find working compromises. > > > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to > > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in > origamimagic.com, > > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so > > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > > visually it makes all the difference. > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Gerd, > > > I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you > > > mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd > have > > to > > > design portholes into the hull sides. > > > If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, > and > > do > > > away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot > of > > > thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple > > hull, > > > from the template in the files section of this group, with higher > > > sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > > > When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before > respondents > > to > > > my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > > except > > > for you, who seem to support flush decks. > > > So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches > to > > > the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting in > > > portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > > strength), > > > and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > > > So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > > must > > > be some other objection - aesthetics? > > > I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > > etc... > > > And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > > > Cheers, > > > Matt > > > Australia | 7149|7135|2005-03-14 22:42:21|Matt|Re: portholes in the hull sides|Gerd, Come to think of it, are you planning to sell designs for the Yago? How hard would it be to add bilge keels? Just wondering, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Thanks everyone, > What i was trying to imagine was raising the 3/16th topsides, losing > the cabin, recessing the foredeck, and plonking the wheelhouse onto > the flush deck - not actually raising the whole shebang one foot. > I'm yet to do much modelling, but i suspect that non-cambered > topsides/deck (i.e. no tumblehome) will look goofy - best to make a > model and see what it looks like. > Gerd, i couldn't see any raised deck designs on origamimagic.com, did > i miss them? > Cheers, > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Construction wise , flush decks are far more difficult as parts ar > > much bigger and thus heavier, and with such large expanses > > unstiffened by corners such as cabinsides , distortion is a much > > greater liklihood. Raising the 3/16th topsides , cockpit, > > wheelhouse , foredeck, and the side decks is a serious reduction in > > stability. Straddling a flush deck when it is heeled 25 degrees > with > > nothing but open space between you and the sea is dnagerous.It > feels > > liike trying to straddle a whale. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > > > Weight: > > > > > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually a > > > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although > the > > > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised > hull > > > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have > been. > > > It's really not a significant difference. > > > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would add > > > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the > CG. > > > > > > Windage: > > > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less > you > > > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a > steppedhull/side > > > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all along > > > windage can e significantly higher. > > > > > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage > and > > > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it gets > > to > > > find working compromises. > > > > > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want to > > > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in > > origamimagic.com, > > > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > > > > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > > > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" so > > > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > > > visually it makes all the difference. > > > > > > Gerd > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Gerd, > > > > I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed you > > > > mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd > > have > > > to > > > > design portholes into the hull sides. > > > > If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides higher, > > and > > > do > > > > away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a lot > > of > > > > thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a simple > > > hull, > > > > from the template in the files section of this group, with > higher > > > > sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > > > > When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before > > respondents > > > to > > > > my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > > > except > > > > for you, who seem to support flush decks. > > > > So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 inches > > to > > > > the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting > in > > > > portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > > > strength), > > > > and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > > > > So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather there > > > must > > > > be some other objection - aesthetics? > > > > I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > > > etc... > > > > And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Matt > > > > Australia | 7150|7103|2005-03-14 23:02:29|James Douglas|Re: steel hull transport|Sherry, I have a 33 foot steel hull and deck designed by John Simpson which is presently sitting in storage in Calgary. (37 feet with bow sprit). I am also looking for a way to move it out to the coast that I may commence work on her. I am thinking I may be able to offer a back haul opportunity to you which could possibly reduce the cost of hauling for each of us. If this is of interest to you E-mail me back or call me direct at (604) 986-2678. Evenings are probably the best time to reach me. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sherry_mcallister" wrote: > > I am trying to transport a steel hull 36' from squamish to edmonton. > I found a friend who has a one tonne truck but no trailer. Is the > trailer that fits this hull in vancouver or here in alberta? The > trip would be done over Easter/ spring break. Could the trailer be > rented for this time frame and what would the cost be? > > Thanks in advance > Sherry | 7151|7147|2005-03-15 01:01:50|jericoera|Re: wood stove question|I have a 2400 sq foot house I heat with wood and I have found after reducing the 8 inch square hole to a 5 inch stainless sleeve that I get a lot better draft. Many people with wood stoves have too big a pipe and not only lose more heat but have lousy draft. You for a boat would still want the pipe big enough you can clean it, but don't get carried away and use a huge pipe. The other thing I would do would be to have an air intake into the stove from outside with a dampening mechanism. You could if you close up your boat in bad weather burn all the oxygen out of your cabin and put yourself at risk if your boat is too airtight. My woodstove at home unfortunately does not have an outside air intake into it so I always have to keep at least a couple windows in the house open a few inches when the stove is burning otherwise we get very sleepy inside --ie lack of oxygen I suspect. If you could get one small enough, Pacific energy Stoves in Duncan BC makes excellent wood stoves with impact resistant glass on the front which throws a lot of heat and would provide some nice lighting in the cabin. Glass is a lousy insulator, which means that your wood stove wood actually radiate more heat out through the glass than the metal sides-mine does and I like it coming in from the wet in winter. As for low maintenance. I would recommend a straight pipe angled if you like but avoid elbows where possible.You could easily clean out the stove and remove the door in summer and your stove intake would probably work as a good air circulating device for the boat cooling it and freshening it in the summer. Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > A question for the wood stove experts. > I would like to install a wood stove in my boat. The stove pipe would > exit straight out the back of the small fire box and would rise 50 cm > above horizontal in the first 1.5 meters. The pipe makes a 30 deg. > turn and rises again 50 cm in another 1.5 meters where it enters an > elbow and from there goes straight up for 1.5 meters. > I will most often run a diesel burner. However, I want the ability to > burn wood. > 1. Will the piping described remove the wood smoke? > 2. What size stove pipe should I use? > Gerald | 7152|7152|2005-03-15 04:33:37|Gerd|Rotating Jig|I have just uploaded 2 interesting pictures to the photo section: WynandDix57-2 and WynandDix57-1. It shows a 57' Dix hull being in a rotating jig, for easy flat welding - great job! They were posted by Wynand from South Afrika in the boatdesign.net and he kindly permitted me to repost them here. Gerd| 7153|7135|2005-03-15 04:40:04|Alex Christie|Re: flush-decked boats|Excellent points Gerd -- there are many different ways of doing a flush-decked boat, and not all are alike, being that some may in fact lower windage and top-hamper, while others may raise it (this issue also crops up with overly tall pilot houses that sometimes get added to steel boats). The righting moment offered by the immersed top of a flush decker is also phenomenal (though both myself and my family hope to not spend most of our time experiencing said righting moment on an average sail outing!). In consideration of Gerd's points, I'll have to reserve personal judgement on flush decks under sail until I try the real thing --- so count me in for a sail on launch day by the banks of the Danube, Gerd! I hope to sail my boat across the Atlantic some day to visit my former Danish home again, and I hope we can have an Origamiboats Festival somewhere, with all the European boats showing up for a big party. BTW, if anyone has not visited Gerd's site yet, you should, no if-ands-or-buts. He has developed it well beyond what I first saw, and it offers very detailed advice on creating an origami hull design, as well as entertaining anecdotes, including getting a ride on a 60 footer with world racing Wunderkind Isabelle Autissier. I'm quite blown away with what he has put together, and it has me thinking about some other origami projects I want to pursue once I've launched our 36 footer (hopefully this summer). The Yago project at: http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ Alex On 14-Mar-05, at 10:00 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > Alex, it depends on the design. > > If you would take your hull, and raise it over the entire forward > area to the height of your cabin-roof, you would indeed have more > weight and more windage, BUT you have to deduct the weight and > windage of the cabin-sides and possibly part of the bulwarks from it. > If your flushdeck is sloping low down on the outsides, this > difference is even getting smaller. > > As to safety: I have said that before, but on my 10m former boat I > had an extreme flushdeck, with a very shallow cockpit well, and felt > very safe working on the deck, altough I have to admit that it was > wet at times, that's why this time there is shelter behind the cabin- > bulkhead. The only thing I regretted was that there was not more > camber, because when heeling, to windward it is easy to walk and > work on deck because due to the slope this is mostly flat and level, > and to leeward I feel MUCH safer to stand in the bulwarks and to be > able to lean back against the uncluttered deck rather than having to > crouch under the overhanging cabin sides, that is for sure the one > place on a boat in rough weather I do not like at all. > Having the freedom to move and to plant myself efficiently and > solidly on a flat surface is for me the most important thing in bad > weather. I do understand that high cabin gives a protected FEELING, > but this is my personal experience, I prefer either a cambered flush > deck or a very low cabin. > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats | 7154|7135|2005-03-15 04:45:33|Gerd|Re: portholes in the hull sides|> Gerd, i couldn't see any raised deck designs on origamimagic.com, did i miss them? Matt, that was not for raised deck but the shape of the topsides you would get with a dart cut from the top. On Yago the upper hullside or cabin side is an added (thinner) plate added at a slight angle, but I could have done this from the same hull sheet with a third dart. You are right, the best is modelling to get a feel what it will be like, and also you should do the weight and VCG calculations. On the plans you will find the calculated VCG Position for your boat (that will then of course depend on the way you do the interior and how you load it) and by adding the addtional material you will see how much it moves up. Gerd| 7155|7155|2005-03-15 04:55:22|Alex Christie|Origami Film|Dear Group, I'm pleased to announce that the DVD project is nearing completion, after some technical and monetary hassles (I had to break down and buy a giant external hard drive to store the downloaded film), as well as time constraints during our recent boat-detailing blitz. Some will be happy to know that I have kept the editing knife in control, and not cut too much (only repetitive stuff). All critical junctures in the building of an origamiboat have been captured, and the minor junctures will likely be filmed and added in time (I am scouting for the next boat someone might be building). I can't guarantee the release date, but I'll let everyone know when it gets really, really close. Thanks for your patience, Alex Christie PS, email me at achristie@... if you are wanting to be on the direct announcement list.| 7156|7135|2005-03-15 04:56:34|Gerd|Re: portholes in the hull sides|Matt, the plans for the Yago 31 can be freely downloaded and used - fill out the request at the website and I will send you the download link for both the plan as far as they are ready and the workbook. I was quite busy and got a bit delayed, but they should be completed some time later this spring. The other designs I am on at the moment, a 36 and a smaller version about 26, will be done for the moment only to concept stade, but if you are interested drop me a mail and we will see what we can work out. Yes, they could be built with fixed keel(s) although that would be loosing a bit of the charme ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ , --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Gerd, > Come to think of it, are you planning to sell designs for the Yago? > How hard would it be to add bilge keels? > Just wondering, > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > Thanks everyone, > > What i was trying to imagine was raising the 3/16th topsides, > losing > > the cabin, recessing the foredeck, and plonking the wheelhouse onto > > the flush deck - not actually raising the whole shebang one foot. > > I'm yet to do much modelling, but i suspect that non-cambered > > topsides/deck (i.e. no tumblehome) will look goofy - best to make a > > model and see what it looks like. > > Gerd, i couldn't see any raised deck designs on origamimagic.com, > did > > i miss them? > > Cheers, > > Matt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Construction wise , flush decks are far more difficult as parts > ar > > > much bigger and thus heavier, and with such large expanses > > > unstiffened by corners such as cabinsides , distortion is a much > > > greater liklihood. Raising the 3/16th topsides , cockpit, > > > wheelhouse , foredeck, and the side decks is a serious reduction > in > > > stability. Straddling a flush deck when it is heeled 25 degrees > > with > > > nothing but open space between you and the sea is dnagerous.It > > feels > > > liike trying to straddle a whale. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > > > > Matt, it's about weight and windage. > > > > Weight: > > > > > > > > In a design like Yago, with quite a strong camber its actually > a > > > > tiny little bit lighter with a CG about equal, because although > > the > > > > surface of the side-decks moves up, the surfaces of the raised > > hull > > > > sides are smaller than the - higher - cabin sides would have > > been. > > > > It's really not a significant difference. > > > > You could make a full flush-deck, but in that case you would > add > > > > quite a bit of hull plating all along, and that would raise the > > CG. > > > > > > > > Windage: > > > > I would supest that with a strong camber and a hull raised less > > you > > > > would get maybe as good passage in wind as with a > > steppedhull/side > > > > decks/cabin side. Again, if the hull is raised more and all > along > > > > windage can e significantly higher. > > > > > > > > There is no general answer, except that you should keep windage > > and > > > > weight low ;-) Of course, the bigger the boat, the easier it > gets > > > to > > > > find working compromises. > > > > > > > > Constructionwise, flush deck is easier, and if you would want > to > > > > have the sides rounder, look at Greg's Patterns in > > > origamimagic.com, > > > > with the added dart cut on the topsides. > > > > > > > > Personally I like the raised sides because the increased volume > > > > inside makes a big difference - it is volume you do not "need" > so > > > > far out, you cant't walk there and don't need the headroom but > > > > visually it makes all the difference. > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Gerd, > > > > > I was reading on your site about the Yago 36, and I noticed > you > > > > > mentioned that it was almost flush decked now, and that you'd > > > have > > > > to > > > > > design portholes into the hull sides. > > > > > If that's the case, why not simply have the hull sides > higher, > > > and > > > > do > > > > > away with cabin sides altogether? I've given this subject a > lot > > > of > > > > > thought and have been tinkering with models to see how a > simple > > > > hull, > > > > > from the template in the files section of this group, with > > higher > > > > > sheer line, could work for a flush-decked boat. > > > > > When I've mentioned flush-decking on this forum before > > > respondents > > > > to > > > > > my post have mostly mentioned windage as the biggest problem, > > > > except > > > > > for you, who seem to support flush decks. > > > > > So what would be the problem with simply adding, say, 18 > inches > > > to > > > > > the sheer line of a simple, one dart, origami design? Putting > > in > > > > > portholes on the hull, some curve into the cabin top (for > > > > strength), > > > > > and perhaps a shallow pilot house for inside steering? > > > > > So few people are doing flush-decked boats that I gather > there > > > > must > > > > > be some other objection - aesthetics? > > > > > I love the aesthetics of flush decks, your Yago, the Wylo II, > > > > etc... > > > > > And spaciousness in the cabin - who could object to that? > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Matt > > > > > Australia | 7157|7135|2005-03-15 04:58:35|Gerd|Re: flush-decked boats|Alex, dont make me blush ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Excellent points Gerd -- there are many different ways of doing a > flush-decked boat, and not all are alike, being that some may in fact > lower windage and top-hamper, while others may raise it (this issue > also crops up with overly tall pilot houses that sometimes get added to > steel boats). The righting moment offered by the immersed top of a > flush decker is also phenomenal (though both myself and my family hope > to not spend most of our time experiencing said righting moment on an > average sail outing!). > > In consideration of Gerd's points, I'll have to reserve personal > judgement on flush decks under sail until I try the real thing --- so > count me in for a sail on launch day by the banks of the Danube, Gerd! > I hope to sail my boat across the Atlantic some day to visit my former > Danish home again, and I hope we can have an Origamiboats Festival > somewhere, with all the European boats showing up for a big party. > > BTW, if anyone has not visited Gerd's site yet, you should, no > if-ands-or-buts. He has developed it well beyond what I first saw, and > it offers very detailed advice on creating an origami hull design, as > well as entertaining anecdotes, including getting a ride on a 60 footer > with world racing Wunderkind Isabelle Autissier. I'm quite blown away > with what he has put together, and it has me thinking about some other > origami projects I want to pursue once I've launched our 36 footer > (hopefully this summer). The Yago project at: > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > Alex > > > > > On 14-Mar-05, at 10:00 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > > > > > Alex, it depends on the design. > > > > If you would take your hull, and raise it over the entire forward > > area to the height of your cabin-roof, you would indeed have more > > weight and more windage, BUT you have to deduct the weight and > > windage of the cabin-sides and possibly part of the bulwarks from it. > > If your flushdeck is sloping low down on the outsides, this > > difference is even getting smaller. > > > > As to safety: I have said that before, but on my 10m former boat I > > had an extreme flushdeck, with a very shallow cockpit well, and felt > > very safe working on the deck, altough I have to admit that it was > > wet at times, that's why this time there is shelter behind the cabin- > > bulkhead. The only thing I regretted was that there was not more > > camber, because when heeling, to windward it is easy to walk and > > work on deck because due to the slope this is mostly flat and level, > > and to leeward I feel MUCH safer to stand in the bulwarks and to be > > able to lean back against the uncluttered deck rather than having to > > crouch under the overhanging cabin sides, that is for sure the one > > place on a boat in rough weather I do not like at all. > > Having the freedom to move and to plant myself efficiently and > > solidly on a flat surface is for me the most important thing in bad > > weather. I do understand that high cabin gives a protected FEELING, > > but this is my personal experience, I prefer either a cambered flush > > deck or a very low cabin. > > > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats | 7158|7135|2005-03-15 05:05:30|Alex Christie|Re: flush-decked boats|I'm just hoping you'll win me an introduction to your Isabelle Autissier so she can give me an afternoon daysail on an Open 60 too! (see Gerd's website for the story, or at least the part that he tells us about:-)). I guess you were in the right place at the right time... Alex On 15-Mar-05, at 1:58 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > Alex, dont make me blush ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: >> Excellent points Gerd -- there are many different ways of doing a >> flush-decked boat, and not all are alike, being that some may in > fact >> lower windage and top-hamper, while others may raise it (this > issue | 7159|7159|2005-03-15 11:55:14|Joe Earsley|Dinghy as flush deck handhod|I have wondered if the dinghy turned upside down on a flush deck where the cabin is and placed into secure chocks could have tiedowns that doubled as secure pipe type handholds. The dinghy could even have the handholds designed into the hull. Alaska joe -----Original Message----- From: Alex Christie [mailto:achristie@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:40 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: flush-decked boats Excellent points Gerd -- there are many different ways of doing a flush-decked boat, and not all are alike, being that some may in fact lower windage and top-hamper, while others may raise it (this issue also crops up with overly tall pilot houses that sometimes get added to steel boats). The righting moment offered by the immersed top of a flush decker is also phenomenal (though both myself and my family hope to not spend most of our time experiencing said righting moment on an average sail outing!). In consideration of Gerd's points, I'll have to reserve personal judgement on flush decks under sail until I try the real thing --- so count me in for a sail on launch day by the banks of the Danube, Gerd! I hope to sail my boat across the Atlantic some day to visit my former Danish home again, and I hope we can have an Origamiboats Festival somewhere, with all the European boats showing up for a big party. BTW, if anyone has not visited Gerd's site yet, you should, no if-ands-or-buts. He has developed it well beyond what I first saw, and it offers very detailed advice on creating an origami hull design, as well as entertaining anecdotes, including getting a ride on a 60 footer with world racing Wunderkind Isabelle Autissier. I'm quite blown away with what he has put together, and it has me thinking about some other origami projects I want to pursue once I've launched our 36 footer (hopefully this summer). The Yago project at: http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ Alex On 14-Mar-05, at 10:00 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > Alex, it depends on the design. > > If you would take your hull, and raise it over the entire forward > area to the height of your cabin-roof, you would indeed have more > weight and more windage, BUT you have to deduct the weight and > windage of the cabin-sides and possibly part of the bulwarks from it. > If your flushdeck is sloping low down on the outsides, this > difference is even getting smaller. > > As to safety: I have said that before, but on my 10m former boat I > had an extreme flushdeck, with a very shallow cockpit well, and felt > very safe working on the deck, altough I have to admit that it was > wet at times, that's why this time there is shelter behind the cabin- > bulkhead. The only thing I regretted was that there was not more > camber, because when heeling, to windward it is easy to walk and > work on deck because due to the slope this is mostly flat and level, > and to leeward I feel MUCH safer to stand in the bulwarks and to be > able to lean back against the uncluttered deck rather than having to > crouch under the overhanging cabin sides, that is for sure the one > place on a boat in rough weather I do not like at all. > Having the freedom to move and to plant myself efficiently and > solidly on a flat surface is for me the most important thing in bad > weather. I do understand that high cabin gives a protected FEELING, > but this is my personal experience, I prefer either a cambered flush > deck or a very low cabin. > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 7160|7160|2005-03-15 14:40:26|nortje_wynand|New Kid on the block|Hello everyone, I just arrived after an invitation by a member. About myself; Built steel boats professionally for a number of years - mainly raduised chined and a few multi chined ones. Lengths between 24 - 65 ft. Retired from all that and is also a boat designer since 1991, mainly steel and aluminuim. Started my adult life as an apprentice and is a qualified boilermaker by trade. Just started on my own boat for a future extended south pacafic cruise. I look forward to join in your discussions and ideas, but be forewarned, at times I am the devils advocate!| 7161|7117|2005-03-15 14:48:09|nortje_wynand|Re: Lattice Masts|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Didn't someone build a swain with a stainless steel mast? I wonder how > that worked out? > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I kind of wonder about the windage (and noise in high winds?) on a > > lattice mast...a single steel tube mast would be many times simpler and > > a cause less turbulence at the leading edge of the sail than a lattice > > mast, improving lift. > > > > Dudley Dix has an interesting thing to say about steel masts: > > > > I have used steel masts on all of my gaff designs since the early > > 1980s, with good success. I researched all of the options very early on > > and found that steel is the best option for a gaff rig. Other designers > > have also said to me that they will not use steel masts because they > > are too heavy. I tell them to do the sums, not make incorrect > > assumptions. > > > > See the whole thing at http://dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > > > > Alex > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] A friend of mine had a lattice steelmast built (designed by Angelo Lavranos) but quickly replaced it with a conventional mast. Reasons; windnoice and drag/windage. Wynand| 7162|7135|2005-03-15 15:36:10|brentswain38|Re: portholes in the hull sides|Gerd I had a look at your website. Great stuff. Dropping the foredeck and cockpit , and lighter plate for the extra above the sheerline all help to keep weight low . The higher camber also keeps weight low and greatly increases ultimate stability. Some of the round the world racers had great inverted stability until the increased the deck camber. Originally some had almost flat decks. Good to see you'r doing a 36, a popular size. People told me for years that if I did a 40 it would be very popular. It sure hasn't turned out that way. Those who claimed to be keen on a 40 dissapeared instantly once the plans were available.It's just too big a boat to be practical. A friend told me of a guy he knew who was siling around the world in a 28 footer . People would look into his boat and say" Your boat's too small." He'd answer" Your ego's too big". Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > Gerd, i couldn't see any raised deck designs on origamimagic.com, > did i miss them? > Matt, that was not for raised deck but the shape of the topsides you > would get with a dart cut from the top. On Yago the upper hullside > or cabin side is an added (thinner) plate added at a slight angle, > but I could have done this from the same hull sheet with a third > dart. > You are right, the best is modelling to get a feel what it will be > like, and also you should do the weight and VCG calculations. On the > plans you will find the calculated VCG Position for your boat (that > will then of course depend on the way you do the interior and how > you load it) and by adding the addtional material you will see how > much it moves up. > Gerd | 7163|7160|2005-03-15 16:14:27|Carl Nostrand|Re: New Kid on the block|Welcome! Tells us more about your boat building project. Your design or the devils? Carl Homer Alaska On Mar 15, 2005, at 10:39 AM, nortje_wynand wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > I just arrived after an invitation by a member. About myself; > > Built steel boats professionally for a number of years - mainly > raduised chined and a few multi chined ones. Lengths between 24 - 65 > ft. > Retired from all that and is also a boat designer since 1991, mainly > steel and aluminuim. Started my adult life as an apprentice and is a > qualified boilermaker by trade. > Just started on my own boat for a future extended south pacafic cruise. > I look forward to join in your discussions and ideas, but be > forewarned, at times I am the devils advocate! > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7164|7160|2005-03-15 16:22:46|Robert Gainer|Re: New Kid on the block|Congratulations, you have joined a very interesting group, go though some of the older posts, and check it out. How are the plans coming for your move to down under? Or maybe you think of SA as already down under? Why don’t you put up some of your construction photos, they would make some of the people in the group a little jealous of your work. Even though it’s a different technique good workmanship is always good workmanship. All the best and I will talk to you later, Robert Gainer > > From: "nortje_wynand" > Date: 2005/03/15 Tue PM 02:39:57 EST > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] New Kid on the block > > > > Hello everyone, > > I just arrived after an invitation by a member. About myself; > > Built steel boats professionally for a number of years - mainly > raduised chined and a few multi chined ones. Lengths between 24 - 65 ft. > Retired from all that and is also a boat designer since 1991, mainly > steel and aluminuim. Started my adult life as an apprentice and is a > qualified boilermaker by trade. > Just started on my own boat for a future extended south pacafic cruise. > I look forward to join in your discussions and ideas, but be > forewarned, at times I am the devils advocate! > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7165|7160|2005-03-15 17:38:16|Gerd|Re: New Kid on the block|Hi Wynand - nice to see you here ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I just arrived after an invitation by a member. About myself; > > Built steel boats professionally for a number of years - mainly > raduised chined and a few multi chined ones. Lengths between 24 - 65 ft. > Retired from all that and is also a boat designer since 1991, mainly > steel and aluminuim. Started my adult life as an apprentice and is a > qualified boilermaker by trade. > Just started on my own boat for a future extended south pacafic cruise. > I look forward to join in your discussions and ideas, but be > forewarned, at times I am the devils advocate! | 7166|7135|2005-03-15 17:41:24|Gerd|Re: portholes in the hull sides|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A friend told me of a guy he knew who was siling around the world > in a 28 footer . People would look into his boat and say" Your boat's > too small." He'd answer" Your ego's too big". Just my feeling, Brent, of all the people I have seen buy or build, the smaller boats got a lot more miles under the keel and produced a lot more satisfaction. It's VERY easy to get yourself stuck with a project one size to big. small is great! Gerd| 7167|7135|2005-03-15 22:47:30|seeratlas|Re: portholes in the hull sides|On the other hand, I sure have met a whole bunch of people coming back from cruises, who put their boats up for sale as they start shopping for something a bit bigger... As in all things, I would posit there is no "one size fits all" solution. I'm coming down from a 54 which while fine for single handing in good weather, was life threatening in a blow. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > A friend told me of a guy he knew who was siling around the > world > > in a 28 footer . People would look into his boat and say" Your > boat's > > too small." He'd answer" Your ego's too big". > > Just my feeling, Brent, of all the people I have seen buy or build, > the smaller boats got a lot more miles under the keel and produced a > lot more satisfaction. It's VERY easy to get yourself stuck with a > project one size to big. small is great! > > Gerd | 7168|7160|2005-03-15 23:15:57|nortje_wynand|Re: New Kid on the block|Hi Carl. Fortunately my own, with a little help from the ugly one:-) Wynand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand wrote: > Welcome! > > Tells us more about your boat building project. Your design or the > devils? > > > Carl > Homer Alaska > > > On Mar 15, 2005, at 10:39 AM, nortje_wynand wrote: > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > I just arrived after an invitation by a member. About myself; > > > > Built steel boats professionally for a number of years - mainly > > raduised chined and a few multi chined ones. Lengths between 24 - 65 > > ft. > > Retired from all that and is also a boat designer since 1991, mainly > > steel and aluminuim. Started my adult life as an apprentice and is a > > qualified boilermaker by trade. > > Just started on my own boat for a future extended south pacafic cruise. > > I look forward to join in your discussions and ideas, but be > > forewarned, at times I am the devils advocate! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7169|22|2005-03-16 01:52:20|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /BrunoPeyronWinsToday.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Congratulations!!!NEW RECORD You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/BrunoPeyronWinsToday.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7170|7160|2005-03-16 02:22:18|Carl Nostrand|Re: New Kid on the block|To a long time steel man...... I'm delighted to learn from your hard won achievements. Building boats for a living is a hard earned achievement in my eyes. Thanks for joining. I sure do wish that I had your experience building curvy metal boats! Most of my sea time has been on the wooden halibut schooners of the north pacific. Were are you building at? And please tell us about your new vessel! Pictures are very welcome. Best regards, Carl On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:15 PM, nortje_wynand wrote: > > > Hi Carl. > > Fortunately my own, with a little help from the ugly one:-) > > Wynand > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Nostrand wrote: >> Welcome! >> >> Tells us more about your boat building project. Your design or the >> devils? >> >> >> Carl >> Homer Alaska >> >> >> On Mar 15, 2005, at 10:39 AM, nortje_wynand wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> I just arrived after an invitation by a member. About myself; >>> >>> Built steel boats professionally for a number of years - mainly >>> raduised chined and a few multi chined ones. Lengths between 24 - 65 >>> ft. >>> Retired from all that and is also a boat designer since 1991, mainly >>> steel and aluminuim. Started my adult life as an apprentice and is a >>> qualified boilermaker by trade. >>> Just started on my own boat for a future extended south pacafic > cruise. >>> I look forward to join in your discussions and ideas, but be >>> forewarned, at times I am the devils advocate! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7171|7171|2005-03-16 09:12:34|Phil S.|Board etiquette|Hey guys/gals; Please could we delete the message we are responding to when replying, some of the notes are intolerably long, they also take up much more space and can double or triple the size of a digest. Alex, I know what a major pain video editing can be, please if I can send you some money in advance for my copy of your video please send me an email with the address and cost. newbarndesign@... best regards Phil| 7172|7171|2005-03-16 11:36:13|Puck III|Re: Board etiquette & Video|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > > Hey guys/gals; > Please could we delete the message we are responding to when replying, Thanks for the reminder Phil > Alex, > I know what a major pain video editing can be, please if I can send > you some money in advance for my copy of your video please send me an > email with the address and cost. > newbarndesign@y... > best regards > Phil Count me in for the same Alex , post included to Belgium and payment via Western Union please. Good luck with the Video editing :-) Old Ben with| 7173|7173|2005-03-16 14:34:41|nortje_wynand|Dix Hulls|Hi everyone, Robert and Carl asked for some photos: - I posted some Dix raduis chined hulls I have built. Note that the 38ft with the big ones is totally frameless - yes, frameless raduis / round chine. Will update photos tomorrow and post some of frameless multi-chines I have built (van de Stadt & Grahame Shannon designs) Feel free to ask, comment or criticise My Photo album name: Wynand Boats Wynand| 7174|7173|2005-03-16 15:00:28|Alex Christie|posting photos|We run the risk of locking up the photo access again if more albums are posted to group 1, so please put new photo albums in group 2 ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2 ). If the photos access locks up again (this seems to be a glitch yahoo has when you go over quota on photos), I'll have to delete stuff again (and waste time that would be better spent editing the DVD, grrr!). Also, please keep photos more or less on topic (ie, if non-origami boat, it should be to illustrate a point in a current discussion). The photo files are unfortunately small so we have to ration space and use the second group. Thanks, Alex| 7175|7173|2005-03-16 15:02:13|Gerd|Re: Dix Hulls|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > with the big ones is totally frameless - yes, frameless raduis / round chine. Well Wynand, for heated discussions of frameless hulls you sure have come to the right place here ;-)| 7176|7173|2005-03-16 15:09:43|Carl Nostrand|Re: Dix Hulls|Great photos! Some were a little small but, I love the smooth lines, powerful, and capable hull shapes. Must be a nice feeling of safety and control having such a developed hull to weather out the stormy seas of the north pacific, and blast into a blow if need be. Could you please elaborate on your frameless raduis / round chine construction? A labor of love I bet. What is your retirement vessel all about? Wu li wa Carl| 7177|7173|2005-03-16 15:19:22|nortje_wynand|Re: Dix Hulls|Gert & Carl, Some of the photos I oops with the resolution and will have them replaced tommorrow night with some bigger, clearer ones. The 65 & 57 are framed (longitudinal framing - frames do not touch hull plating) hulls. The 38 on the other hand is totally frameless. The photo where you can see it is where the three hull lay together - clear photo. Sorry about the smudgy ones - will get fixed. Must go sleep now. Thanks for the interest guys Wynand| 7178|7178|2005-03-16 15:28:23|brentswain38|36 trailer for twin keeler|Alberta Ken who built the trailer to fit a 36 twin keeler is at tatianavdor@... Brent| 7179|7178|2005-03-16 15:39:46|Johan de Bruin|Re: 36 trailer for twin keeler|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Alberta Ken who built the trailer to fit a 36 twin keeler is at > tatianavdor@y... > Brent Thanks a million Brent! I tried a phone number I was given, but it was no longer in service. Johan| 7180|7147|2005-03-16 15:45:57|brentswain38|Re: wood stove question|Pacific energy makes some of the mmost efficient woodstoves ever built.Friends say they only have to be loaded every 12 hours for continuous burning. Unfortunatly I've heard that they no longer make their smallest model, an ideal size for a boat. The smaller ones may still be found used ,as Vancouver and area have banned woodstoves in houses for the entire lower mainland. The next size up may be oK. I'd avoid elbows as much as possible Just imagine yourself trying to clean out a solidly plugged chiney full of creosote, around elbows .Straight pipes are best altho a fibreglass chimney cleaning rod will go around a smooth 45 degree elbow. The slope you describe would have major draft problems. 4 inch stainless pipe with a 1/8th inch wall is readilly available in scrapyards in BC for less than the thin walled yuppie boat stuff you get out of yachtie stores.It will take a good chimney fire with no problems, a good way to clean a chimney.It's been a good size for me for the last 29 years . Having an outside ait intake eliminates downdraft as any pressure gusts outside are on both outlet and intake. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > I have a 2400 sq foot house I heat with wood and I have found after > reducing the 8 inch square hole to a 5 inch stainless sleeve that I > get a lot better draft. Many people with wood stoves have too big a > pipe and not only lose more heat but have lousy draft. > You for a boat would still want the pipe big enough you can clean > it, but don't get carried away and use a huge pipe. The other thing > I would do would be to have an air intake into the stove from > outside with a dampening mechanism. You could if you close up your > boat in bad weather burn all the oxygen out of your cabin and put > yourself at risk if your boat is too airtight. My woodstove at home > unfortunately does not have an outside air intake into it so I > always have to keep at least a couple windows in the house open a > few inches when the stove is burning otherwise we get very sleepy > inside --ie lack of oxygen I suspect. > > If you could get one small enough, Pacific energy Stoves in Duncan > BC makes excellent wood stoves with impact resistant glass on the > front which throws a lot of heat and would provide some nice > lighting in the cabin. Glass is a lousy insulator, which means that > your wood stove wood actually radiate more heat out through the > glass than the metal sides-mine does and I like it coming in from > the wet in winter. > > As for low maintenance. I would recommend a straight pipe angled if > you like but avoid elbows where possible.You could easily clean out > the stove and remove the door in summer and your stove intake would > probably work as a good air circulating device for the boat cooling > it and freshening it in the summer. > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > > > A question for the wood stove experts. > > I would like to install a wood stove in my boat. The stove pipe > would > > exit straight out the back of the small fire box and would rise 50 > cm > > above horizontal in the first 1.5 meters. The pipe makes a 30 deg. > > turn and rises again 50 cm in another 1.5 meters where it enters > an > > elbow and from there goes straight up for 1.5 meters. > > I will most often run a diesel burner. However, I want the ability > to > > burn wood. > > 1. Will the piping described remove the wood smoke? > > 2. What size stove pipe should I use? > > Gerald | 7181|7122|2005-03-16 15:49:11|brentswain38|Re: Plasma Cutter Cheeeeeeep|It's too bad that Harbor Freight doesn't ship outside the continental US. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Harbor Freight is now carrying an inverter-powered 35-amp > plasma cutter for $500 USD. It claims a 40% duty cycle. Weighs > less than 30 pounds. > > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf? itemnumber=91814 > > Probably not a suitable machine for a production shop but it > may last long enough to get through one boat... > > --Hoop | 7182|7178|2005-03-16 15:49:35|Johan de Bruin|Re: 36 trailer for twin keeler - ERROR!!!!|Hi Brent The e-mail address you supplied appears to be incorrect. It reports back with the following error: Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following address. : Remote host said: 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.ca account (tatianavdor@...) [0] - mta310.mail.scd.yahoo.com [BODY] --- Below this line is a copy of the message. I also sent a message to tatianavdor@..., just in case, but it too bounced. Can you please confirm the details? Thanks in advance Johan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Alberta Ken who built the trailer to fit a 36 twin keeler is at > tatianavdor@y... > Brent | 7183|7173|2005-03-16 23:09:39|Puck III|Re: posting photos|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: We run the risk of locking up the photo access again if more albums are posted Also, please keep photos more or less on topic (ie,if non origami boat, it should be to illustrate a point in a current discussion). Thanks, Alex Hi Alex , I made space available , just a " Ben's stuff " folder in the Files of origamiboats2 ,related to the discussion Flushdeck. I give a Health warning : do NOT meld lead without a mask , as seen done by a dummy in " OBOULO " :-) Building with those strips is always usefull to understand the Splitpline designmethod ( of Topic except when designing for Origami :-) Leaving you all for a well deserved (work)holiday to a mountain top near the South of France , see you all in 10 days :-) Old Ben| 7184|7117|2005-03-17 12:15:41|bigrigger6900|Re: Lattice Masts|Looked at the Dix Design website on this. He calculates the steel mast at 8.6kg/m and the comparable aluminum one at 6kg/m . Who would want toput this much extra weight aloft? Do you think he even reads his own postings? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Didn't someone build a swain with a stainless steel mast? I wonder > how > > that worked out? > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > I kind of wonder about the windage (and noise in high winds?) on > a > > > lattice mast...a single steel tube mast would be many times > simpler and > > > a cause less turbulence at the leading edge of the sail than a > lattice > > > mast, improving lift. > > > > > > Dudley Dix has an interesting thing to say about steel masts: > > > > > > I have used steel masts on all of my gaff designs since the > early > > > 1980s, with good success. I researched all of the options very > early on > > > and found that steel is the best option for a gaff rig. Other > designers > > > have also said to me that they will not use steel masts because > they > > > are too heavy. I tell them to do the sums, not make incorrect > > > assumptions. > > > > > > See the whole thing at http://dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > A friend of mine had a lattice steelmast built (designed by Angelo > Lavranos) but quickly replaced it with a conventional mast. Reasons; > windnoice and drag/windage. > > Wynand | 7185|7185|2005-03-17 14:06:09|nortje_wynand|Origami vs Stadt|Looking at both methods, the origami and the van de Stadt frameless method (of which I built a few)I would say the stadt is the easier and faster way. A 34 ft Stadt takes only 18 working days to plate up hull and deck inclusive of welding (MIG)ready for blasting. There is some photo's of this method in my photo album. What are your guys view on that. Wynand| 7186|7185|2005-03-17 18:49:51|Gerd|Re: Origami vs Stadt|Wynand, for building-speed only you can't beat origami. Brent has done some hulls faster than that and can tell you about it. There is NOTHING to prepare, no basket mold to build and no steel to go shopping that does not go into the boat, and if you manage to get full-size plates for your half hulls, you get them delivered cut them out crank a few times on your come alongs and the hull just pulls together like magic, nothing to lift, parts never leave the ground etc, it's just plain crazy. I have build on floating frames and strongback, and I have helped friends do basket mould hulls, but you just cant beat origami for the hull itself. After that it's the same amount of work - and the hull is a only very small part of that - but the instant gratification for an amateur is fantastic. Also, don't confound the situation for a first time amateur with yours, somebody who has never built before will save A LOT of time because no amateur will do that in 18 days, but even first time amateur can tack a hull together from 2 sheets plus transom in 6 to 8 days after delivery and start on the deck, that's a fast-track start he will get from no other method. Somebody with your experience can easily do a step by step mind experiment and see it come together... better you don't, or you will go grab a couple of plates and start pullig just for fun - that's what happened to me ad see where it got me ;-) Basket mould V d Stadt may become more interesting in small series where you build one jig and then have CNC cut panels. Otherwise, you do get sort of a typical hull-shape, more or less pronounced, with more darts you get it rounder, if the chines are placed correctly, above the water she will look quite round, you get a bit of compound curve in the fore and aft sections. Origami is more than just time saving, it's a mid-way alternative to a hard- chine hull, simpler than radius chine and of course much easier than a full rounded hull. It's the "roundest" hardchine hull you can build without forming or rolling the sheets ;-) BTW, I do like Dix's designs and other radius chine hulls a lot, very nice work and good value for money even when build professionally. Finally: if you have full size plates, there is a lot less cutting/welding reducing work, time, material, cost and deformation. I believe there is still a lot of research on cutting templates and shapes to be done, that can get a lot better and more varied for different types of hulls. Actually I really regret that I can not start over or pull another hull or two just to see what else is possible ;-) Gerd the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7187|7187|2005-03-18 01:00:21|jericoera|More mast talk|At the risk of being ridiculed, laughed at and possibly humiliated, I did talk to some pro rigging shops over the past couple days that have rigged some Swain 36's both Aluminum masts and steel masts out of curiosity about what new rigs are going for $$. Both shops said while steel will work, they really recommend aluminum despite being more expensive sighting the reason that the steel is heavier and will cause the vessel to have a less sea kindly motion. The one guy I spoke with further stated that he has had at least one client who had a steel mast on his Swain that now wished they used aluminum. Having said that I know that either Thomas colvin or colin Archer have designed boats with junk rigs and steel masts for years and seem to swear by them. Sorry, I read too much and can't remember which designer it was now. As for cost, the extrusiion itself for a 47 foot mast in aluminum was quoted to me at $2500 but then there is the spreader etc. If you choose to get one manufactured, it is about $10 500 from the more reasonable of the shops I spoke to and one outfit in the lower mainland wanted $25 000 completed. I am not bashing anything here, just sharing some info. Cheers, Carl McIntosh| 7188|7187|2005-03-18 11:43:03|bilgekeeldave|Re: More mast talk|My Brent Swain 31 has a hollow spruce mast, it has served well for 21 years. I know of another Brent Swain boat, a 36, that had a solid spruce mast, that worked too. The solid spruce mast was cheap, the owner just went into the woods and selected a sutible spruce tree, cut it down, and shaped it into a mast. Dave| 7189|7187|2005-03-18 12:00:19|Paul Cotter|Re: More mast talk|Thanks for the info Carl. No laughter here, just tears; 10K – 25K for a pole is obscene. I am certainly not surprised a rigging shop would make such recommendations when such cash is involved. I’m hoping to have my whole boat ready for the water for 10K or so. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but it feels good to have a target budget. Seems to me there is a growing body of evidence that steel masts work on the larger BS (and other) boats. Maybe that evidence does not come from rigorous scientific tests, but it is pretty darn hard to argue against the data collected. Far as I am aware the steel mast people have been happy with them, but I would love to hear directly from them. Some of us just want to get our boats built and in the water and don’t mind sacrificing the ideal for having a bit more cruising time and money to do it. For the time being, I am planning on a solid spruce mast for my BS26; I even have the tree picked out, I just need to go get it. Given my projected use for the boat, I don’t think a wood mast will be a problem. Anyway, the plans specify a solid wood mast. Depending on where you live, a solid spruce mast can be quite economical. By law, we in Alaska get a timber allotment in the National Forests. All we have to do is get a permit, abide by some restrictions and harvest ourselves a mast. Speaking of wood masts, does anyone out there have first hand experience with birdsmouth mast construction? I built a mockup (about 20 inches from some scrap laying around the house) a couple weeks back and it seems much easier than traditional mast construction and I know there have been several built in the 100 ft range. It is even possible to build them with a taper. I estimated about $250 in fir to build a 35 footer. Certainly the epoxy, etc. will be additional. Any comments about life size birdsmouth masts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again Carl. Now I am even more resolved to build my own mast. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: jericoera [mailto:jericoera@...] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:00 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] More mast talk At the risk of being ridiculed, laughed at and possibly humiliated, I did talk to some pro rigging shops over the past couple days that have rigged some Swain 36's both Aluminum masts and steel masts out of curiosity about what new rigs are going for $$. Both shops said while steel will work, they really recommend aluminum despite being more expensive sighting the reason that the steel is heavier and will cause the vessel to have a less sea kindly motion. The one guy I spoke with further stated that he has had at least one client who had a steel mast on his Swain that now wished they used aluminum. Having said that I know that either Thomas colvin or colin Archer have designed boats with junk rigs and steel masts for years and seem to swear by them. Sorry, I read too much and can't remember which designer it was now. As for cost, the extrusiion itself for a 47 foot mast in aluminum was quoted to me at $2500 but then there is the spreader etc. If you choose to get one manufactured, it is about $10 500 from the more reasonable of the shops I spoke to and one outfit in the lower mainland wanted $25 000 completed. I am not bashing anything here, just sharing some info. Cheers, Carl McIntosh To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7190|7187|2005-03-18 12:53:39|Alex Christie|Re: More mast talk|I haven't built a full-sized birds-mouth mast, but at boatbuilding school we did a section to experiment, and it is phenomenally strong. All those laminations made up of each birds-mouth strip make for lot of shear strength, much stronger than wood on its own. That said, I too have seen that the regular spruce stick for 31 footer and under seems to work fine, as on Brent's boat, and if a nice spruce tree is staring you in the face just asking to be used, well... There is an article in WoodenBoat magazine on building the birds mouth spar. Just go to www.woodenboat.com to find the searchable index for all their articles. I think I still have the issue which has it. Alex On 18-Mar-05, at 9:01 AM, Paul Cotter wrote: > > Thanks for the info Carl. > > No laughter here, just tears; 10K – 25K for a pole is obscene. I am > certainly not surprised a rigging shop would make such recommendations > when such cash is involved. I’m hoping to have my whole boat ready for > the water for 10K or so. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but it feels good > to > have a target budget. > > Seems to me there is a growing body of evidence that steel masts work > on > the larger BS (and other) boats. Maybe that evidence does not come from > rigorous scientific tests, but it is pretty darn hard to argue against > the data collected. Far as I am aware the steel mast people have been > happy with them, but I would love to hear directly from them. > > Some of us just want to get our boats built and in the water and don’t > mind sacrificing the ideal for having a bit more cruising time and > money > to do it. For the time being, I am planning on a solid spruce mast for > my BS26; I even have the tree picked out, I just need to go get it. > Given my projected use for the boat, I don’t think a wood mast will be > a > problem. Anyway, the plans specify a solid wood mast. Depending on > where > you live, a solid spruce mast can be quite economical. By law, we in > Alaska get a timber allotment in the National Forests. All we have to > do > is get a permit, abide by some restrictions and harvest ourselves a > mast. > > Speaking of wood masts, does anyone out there have first hand > experience > with birdsmouth mast construction? I built a mockup (about 20 inches > from some scrap laying around the house) a couple weeks back and it > seems much easier than traditional mast construction and I know there > have been several built in the 100 ft range. It is even possible to > build them with a taper. I estimated about $250 in fir to build a 35 > footer. Certainly the epoxy, etc. will be additional. Any comments > about > life size birdsmouth masts would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks again Carl. Now I am even more resolved to build my own mast. > > Cheers > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: jericoera [mailto:jericoera@...] > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:00 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] More mast talk > > > At the risk of being ridiculed, laughed at and possibly humiliated, > I did talk to some pro rigging shops over the past couple days that > have rigged some Swain 36's both Aluminum masts and steel masts out > of curiosity about what new rigs are going for $$. > > Both shops said while steel will work, they really recommend > aluminum despite being more expensive sighting the reason that the > steel is heavier and will cause the vessel to have a less sea kindly > motion. The one guy I spoke with further stated that he has had at > least one client who had a steel mast on his Swain that now wished > they used aluminum. > > Having said that I know that either Thomas colvin or colin Archer > have designed boats with junk rigs and steel masts for years and > seem to swear by them. Sorry, I read too much and can't remember > which designer it was now. > > As for cost, the extrusiion itself for a 47 foot mast in aluminum > was quoted to me at $2500 but then there is the spreader etc. If you > choose to get one manufactured, it is about $10 500 from the more > reasonable of the shops I spoke to and one outfit in the lower > mainland wanted $25 000 completed. > > I am not bashing anything here, just sharing some info. > > Cheers, > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/ > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1111212023/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/ > *htt > p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here > > > D=group > s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=659547813> > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7191|7187|2005-03-18 15:13:22|nortje_wynand|Re: More mast talk|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > At the risk of being ridiculed, laughed at and possibly humiliated, > I did talk to some pro rigging shops over the past couple days that > have rigged some Swain 36's both Aluminum masts and steel masts out > of curiosity about what new rigs are going for $$. > > Both shops said while steel will work, they really recommend > aluminum despite being more expensive sighting the reason that the > steel is heavier and will cause the vessel to have a less sea kindly > motion. The one guy I spoke with further stated that he has had at > least one client who had a steel mast on his Swain that now wished > they used aluminum. > > Having said that I know that either Thomas colvin or colin Archer > have designed boats with junk rigs and steel masts for years and > seem to swear by them. Sorry, I read too much and can't remember > which designer it was now. > > As for cost, the extrusiion itself for a 47 foot mast in aluminum > was quoted to me at $2500 but then there is the spreader etc. If you > choose to get one manufactured, it is about $10 500 from the more > reasonable of the shops I spoke to and one outfit in the lower > mainland wanted $25 000 completed. > > I am not bashing anything here, just sharing some info. > > Cheers, > > Carl McIntosh | 7192|7178|2005-03-18 20:29:03|brentswain38|Re: 36 trailer for twin keeler - ERROR!!!!|Sorry, my mistake . Try tatianadvor@... Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Johan de Bruin" wrote: > > Hi Brent > > The e-mail address you supplied appears to be incorrect. > It reports back with the following error: > > Sorry, we were unable to deliver your message to the following > address. > : > Remote host said: 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a > yahoo.ca account (tatianavdor@y...) [0] - > mta310.mail.scd.yahoo.com [BODY] > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > > I also sent a message to tatianavdor@y..., just in case, but it > too bounced. > > Can you please confirm the details? > > Thanks in advance > Johan > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Alberta Ken who built the trailer to fit a 36 twin keeler is at > > tatianavdor@y... > > Brent | 7193|7185|2005-03-18 20:33:11|brentswain38|Re: Origami vs Stadt|I've done a 36 with only one relatively inexperienced helper , hull and deck ,in six days, minus welding, counting cutting out with a plasma, by hand. The welding on my boats is a fraction that of a Van de Stadt, the chines being only 14 ft per side for a 36.With the precut plates of a Van de Stadt it could be done in a couple of days . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > > Looking at both methods, the origami and the van de Stadt frameless > method (of which I built a few)I would say the stadt is the easier and > faster way. > A 34 ft Stadt takes only 18 working days to plate up hull and deck > inclusive of welding (MIG)ready for blasting. There is some photo's of > this method in my photo album. > > What are your guys view on that. > > Wynand | 7194|7187|2005-03-18 20:37:06|brentswain38|Re: More mast talk|Where do you get an extrusion for 2500. That would be a deal. Steel for a mast costs around $300 and ready for stepping , including labour is under $1,000. Aluminiunm is definitly more efficient sailing wise, but if it means staying at the dock a long time to pay for it , it may be far less efficient. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > At the risk of being ridiculed, laughed at and possibly humiliated, > I did talk to some pro rigging shops over the past couple days that > have rigged some Swain 36's both Aluminum masts and steel masts out > of curiosity about what new rigs are going for $$. > > Both shops said while steel will work, they really recommend > aluminum despite being more expensive sighting the reason that the > steel is heavier and will cause the vessel to have a less sea kindly > motion. The one guy I spoke with further stated that he has had at > least one client who had a steel mast on his Swain that now wished > they used aluminum. > > Having said that I know that either Thomas colvin or colin Archer > have designed boats with junk rigs and steel masts for years and > seem to swear by them. Sorry, I read too much and can't remember > which designer it was now. > > As for cost, the extrusiion itself for a 47 foot mast in aluminum > was quoted to me at $2500 but then there is the spreader etc. If you > choose to get one manufactured, it is about $10 500 from the more > reasonable of the shops I spoke to and one outfit in the lower > mainland wanted $25 000 completed. > > I am not bashing anything here, just sharing some info. > > Cheers, > > Carl McIntosh | 7195|7187|2005-03-18 21:12:43|kendall|Re: More mast talk|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Where do you get an extrusion for 2500. That would be a deal. > Steel for a mast costs around $300 and ready for stepping , > including labour is under $1,000. Aluminiunm is definitly more > efficient sailing wise, but if it means staying at the dock a long > time to pay for it , it may be far less efficient. > Brent Must be my scottish heritage, but that's the way I look at it too. one thing I'd been looking at, may not be taking enough factors into consideration, But I've run into some pretty trashed out boats for way less than $1000. many in the $300 to 500 range, that have good masts and rigging on them, ran into an old Columbia 26 a while ago that had been knocked off the jacks in the yard somehow, trashed, maybe fixable if someone just had to have a c26 and was very ambitious, complete with sails mast/rigging etc, and an old outboard, asking price was only $400. I thought about buying it just for the sails and outboard. I'd think that if someone could find an old trashed boat like that that was rigged similar, (or larger) to the boat they were building, it could save a whole lot of time and money. I mean buy an old trashed boat and if it was anywhere near equipped, you'd get a whole lot of stuff you could use on your project boat. My current boat, I paid a grand for, and when I closed the deal that's how I was looking at it, it has everything I'd need except the hull material to build the boat I want in case it didn't live up to my hopes, mast, boom, winches, engine, prop, 3500lbs of lead in the keel, etc. ken.| 7196|7187|2005-03-19 00:56:47|jericoera|Re: More mast talk|Brent, I got my info from mike@... out of Sidney BC. He is familiar with your boats and a real fair guy compared to the $25 000 bullsh%$#@! I was getting from the lower mainland. Mike will also rig steel masts if that is what anyone wants. I am not endorsing anyone, but I felt Mike offered a good deal of integrity and weighed all options performance wise and cost wise. I am of the other school of thought that says wait a bit longer and get the product you want, but that is probably because I am tied to "the system" and could not bugger off even if my boat was built quicker. I would rather have a weaker smaller engine than a less efficient rig where money is an issue but that's just me. I can say that because I was rescued in an Atlantic Storm off Naragansat road Island on the east coast in 1992 when a storm caught our 24 foot Dive charter boat. That boat of course was single screw and no sails so I have become a firm believer that ocean travel should include a sail for the engine failure scenario that could have cost me my life. One last note, deals of course do come up. I missed out on a complete Aluminum mast last season for $800 out of the interior of BC before I had committed to building a boat. Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Where do you get an extrusion for 2500. That would be a deal. > Steel for a mast costs around $300 and ready for stepping , > including labour is under $1,000. Aluminiunm is definitly more > efficient sailing wise, but if it means staying at the dock a long > time to pay for it , it may be far less efficient. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > wrote: > > > > At the risk of being ridiculed, laughed at and possibly humiliated, > > I did talk to some pro rigging shops over the past couple days that > > have rigged some Swain 36's both Aluminum masts and steel masts out > > of curiosity about what new rigs are going for $$. > > > > Both shops said while steel will work, they really recommend > > aluminum despite being more expensive sighting the reason that the > > steel is heavier and will cause the vessel to have a less sea > kindly > > motion. The one guy I spoke with further stated that he has had at > > least one client who had a steel mast on his Swain that now wished > > they used aluminum. > > > > Having said that I know that either Thomas colvin or colin Archer > > have designed boats with junk rigs and steel masts for years and > > seem to swear by them. Sorry, I read too much and can't remember > > which designer it was now. > > > > As for cost, the extrusiion itself for a 47 foot mast in aluminum > > was quoted to me at $2500 but then there is the spreader etc. If > you > > choose to get one manufactured, it is about $10 500 from the more > > reasonable of the shops I spoke to and one outfit in the lower > > mainland wanted $25 000 completed. > > > > I am not bashing anything here, just sharing some info. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Carl McIntosh | 7197|7197|2005-03-19 01:09:38|jericoera|Rushing the project|Just a thought about building these boats. I, like everyone else in this forum am enthusiastic, but I note that some people seem to be rushing the process looking for the quickest way to build the boat. While speed of building may get you on the water quicker, taking your time will allow you to learn about the boat you are building and really, shouldn't the whole process be interesting and enjoyable? Heck I met Brent while I was working on Texada 7 years ago and just bought the plans a month ago plus a welder. I can tell you that I have had a great deal of satisfaction with planning and scrounging and even thinking about where that boat could possibly take me. People that are in a hurry buy power boats--slow down and enjoy the process a bit. Any day you wake up is a good day--I think a well built boat is going to be more satisfying than holding the record for getting a hull in the water in a day. Building is an experience in itself! Carl McIntosh| 7198|7197|2005-03-19 02:27:59|Alex|Re: Rushing the project|Carl has some good points about taking your time going into these projects. It took me several years just to figure out which size to build, so I've had lots of time to research stuff about these boats! Brent was calmly ready to go three years after I made my initial decision to build a boat (was going to do the 40 footer, then changed to 36). I suspect he has seen this process happen in countless owners, and knows to let things take their course. Speaking of taking a natural course, I noticed after we got into the building of the boat that there were periods where a lot of work would get done, then there woulid be a slow-down for awhile. This was sometimes pretty good, for it allowed me to think and plan things out, gather some materials, sacrifice another vehicle or piece of equipment for the sake of funding the boat, then return to boatbuilding feeling fresh again. I also noticed that, in terms of professional scrounging, taking a break let the scrap-yards re-charge again (after the last time I cleaned out the good stuff), allowing one to find that elusive but critical piece of metal. Paying scrap prices instead of retail makes you feel really good about what money you do throw into the boat, and even a little smug when you visit marine stores (not to buy, just to laugh quietly at the huge prices charged for things you can now weld yourself). The only unfortunate time in the process was when I HAD to have a long piece of stainless pipe for the bulwark, and was forced to order it new from Nanaimo. If we didn't get it I would not have been able to proceed with the filming of the process. The price of that one piece seemed to be about the same as what I paid for most of the other stainless on the boat, and I'm still suffering post-traumatic stress disorder from thinking about the bill for a single piece of pipe. Man, if you built a boat by ordering all stainless off the shelf...well, don't do it. Whenever possible, "Just Say No to Retail". :-) Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > Just a thought about building these boats. I, like everyone else in > this forum am enthusiastic, but I note that some people seem to be > rushing the process looking for the quickest way to build the boat. > | 7199|7053|2005-03-19 04:15:57|sae140|Re: car engine and transmission ... generator|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > I've been searching through the archive looking for info on using a car engine and transmission to power a boat ... this led to an idea ... might be crazy, but worth floating ... Get a diesel engine and matching tranny from a front-wheel-drive car (VW Golf?) ... thrust bearing). > Unless you plan on doing a lot of motor-sailing, personally I think it's an idea worth pursuing. At the very least you'd need to weld-up the differential so that both shafts are locked, and fit some kind of dog-clutch to the forward-facing shaft in order to connect/disconnect anything you may wish to drive from it. > you'd need to drive this lump in second gear, with quite a poor > reverse ratio, although that in itself doesn't negate the idea. Sorry - gave you some bum info there: "Second gear ?" - that's true for a conventional gearbox - but I was forgetting that the fwd lump has a final drive ratio too. I don't have access to a VW Golf or it's data, but assuming that 50 mph = 2,000 engine rpm, and that the diameter of the tyres is around 21" (both reasonable assumptions), then: as the circumference of the tyre is 66", or 1.83 yds, and as a Brit mile is 1760 yds, the tyre will rotate 960 times in one mile - that's 960 rpm at 60 mph - or 800 rpm at 50 mph. 2000 engine rpm giving 800 rpm at the final drive shaft is nice music ! Pity about the reverse ratio - but then, apart from berthing or anchor setting, how often are you going to use reverse gear ? Considering the cost of marine diesels & boxes, I think this is a project well worth pursuing for a cheap install. Colin| 7200|7197|2005-03-19 12:01:56|Paul Cotter|Re: Rushing the project|I’m guessing most folks building a boat are interested in doing just that, building a boat. No harm in also wanting to get on the water in a reasonable amount of time. I also guess that most amateur builders want to build good boats. It is hard to know what you are getting when you buy a shrink-wrapped boat, or a shrink-wrapped anything, for that matter. Marketing sells stuff, not necessarily quality stuff. Another beauty of building is that each person can decide on what trade-offs are worthwhile for his or herself. For some, that may mean being able to build the best boat possible in the shortest amount of time. A boat that goes together quickly may be better than one that takes many years. Or perhaps it could be worse. Time doesn’t necessarily mean quality. There really is no way to judge except by taking a look at it. I think anyone who has built a boat, big or small, appreciates the experience. I love doing it. But it is also great getting it in the water and floating around in it. Paul -----Original Message----- From: jericoera [mailto:jericoera@...] Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Rushing the project Just a thought about building these boats. I, like everyone else in this forum am enthusiastic, but I note that some people seem to be rushing the process looking for the quickest way to build the boat. While speed of building may get you on the water quicker, taking your time will allow you to learn about the boat you are building and really, shouldn't the whole process be interesting and enjoyable? Heck I met Brent while I was working on Texada 7 years ago and just bought the plans a month ago plus a welder. I can tell you that I have had a great deal of satisfaction with planning and scrounging and even thinking about where that boat could possibly take me. People that are in a hurry buy power boats--slow down and enjoy the process a bit. Any day you wake up is a good day--I think a well built boat is going to be more satisfying than holding the record for getting a hull in the water in a day. Building is an experience in itself! Carl McIntosh To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7201|7147|2005-03-19 16:10:31|seeratlas|Re: wood stove question|Brent, and anyone else who has seen this stove.. Is it possible to get a description, drawing or best yet a couple of photos of this stove? I was planning on custom building one to fit and would be very interested in seeing/hearing etc. about the design features that make this stove so good. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Pacific energy makes some of the mmost efficient woodstoves ever > built.Friends say they only have to be loaded every 12 hours for > continuous burning. Unfortunatly I've heard that they no longer make > their smallest model, an ideal size for a boat. | 7202|7202|2005-03-19 17:33:29|servo_bot|Manual anchor winch -Swain design|This graphic seems to have pooped out in the files section. Does anyone have a version they could repost or email to me? Thanks in advance.| 7203|7202|2005-03-19 17:49:07|Alex|Re: Manual anchor winch -Swain design|I have reposted the same photo again to files, it is the 5th file from the top. A friend and I area currently working on building two of these -- I will make sure to take some good photos and post them to the group. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > This graphic seems to have pooped out in the files section. Does > anyone have a version they could repost or email to me? > > Thanks in advance. | 7204|7204|2005-03-19 18:05:54|Alex|Manual anchor winch|I have also posted 2nd photo of an anchor winch, 6th file from the top in Files section. Alex| 7205|7202|2005-03-19 18:24:24|servo_bot|Re: Manual anchor winch -Swain design|Thanks, Alex. Seems like a nice way to keep stinky anchor lines away from your living space on any small cruiser. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > I have reposted the same photo again to files, it is the 5th file from the top. > > A friend and I area currently working on building two of these -- I will make sure to take > some good photos and post them to the group. > > Alex > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > This graphic seems to have pooped out in the files section. Does > > anyone have a version they could repost or email to me? > > > > Thanks in advance. | 7206|7202|2005-03-19 18:36:36|Alex Christie|Re: Manual anchor winch -Swain design|Not only does it keep smelly anchor lines out way they belong, it also moves some of the weight back aft of the bow instead of stuffing anchor chain as far forward as possible (I have seen this on production boats). There was a great article in WoodenBoat magazine once about ways to improve performance on a sailboat. The most dramatic results came from shifting anchor chain storage aft, as well as moving needless weight out of the stern area (a good reason not to put large tankage directly under the cockpit). The extreme ends of bow and stern should be seen almost as "air-tanks" (or storage for puffy light stuff like sails, cotton candy, ghosts, foam peanuts, goose-down and helium-filled balloons), rather than storage lockers, at least when you are sailing. Alex On 19-Mar-05, at 3:23 PM, servo_bot wrote: > > > Thanks, Alex. Seems like a nice way to keep stinky anchor lines away > from your living space on any small cruiser. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: >> >> I have reposted the same photo again to files, it is the 5th file > from the top. | 7207|7202|2005-03-19 19:16:37|servo_bot|Re: Manual anchor winch -Swain design|Excellent! I never even considered that advantage. And the fact that you can fabricate it out of scrap metal, on the cheap, makes the deal even sweeter! I wonder if keeping the chain on deck (on a smaller design) adversely affect center of gravity? In comparison to storing ground tackle way out at the bow, the deck location probably doesn't elevate the weight (enough) to significantly change center of gravity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Not only does it keep smelly anchor lines out way they belong, it also > moves some of the weight back aft of the bow instead of stuffing anchor > chain as far forward as possible (I have seen this on production > boats). There was a great article in WoodenBoat magazine once about > ways to improve performance on a sailboat. The most dramatic results > came from shifting anchor chain storage aft, as well as moving needless > weight out of the stern area (a good reason not to put large tankage > directly under the cockpit). The extreme ends of bow and stern should > be seen almost as "air-tanks" (or storage for puffy light stuff like > sails, cotton candy, ghosts, foam peanuts, goose-down and helium-filled > balloons), rather than storage lockers, at least when you are sailing. > > Alex > > > On 19-Mar-05, at 3:23 PM, servo_bot wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks, Alex. Seems like a nice way to keep stinky anchor lines away > > from your living space on any small cruiser. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > >> > >> I have reposted the same photo again to files, it is the 5th file > > from the top. | 7208|7147|2005-03-19 19:26:19|jericoera|Re: wood stove question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > If you type in Pacific Energy stoves in a search engine, they have a website. they will also have a ph # out of duncan BC. The reason they work so well among other things is that they have a secondary combustion chamber that burns the particulate (smoke/dust) When my stove is warmed up, all you see is a heat wave coming out of the chimney even though I am burning wood. That makes for very clean efficient burning of wood--naturally it works best if your wood is decently dry to start with. Also as I mentioned in a previous post, the glass front if you get ones throws the heat nicely as glass is a poor insulator. If you do get one, i would be inclined to think it would be a good idea to weld a rail along the top so you could cook on it without worrying about the pots and pans flying off the top of it. You may want to weld wome nuts or bushings to the side of it and pop in some stainless rods that swivel so you can dry out your wet gear. If worst comes to worst, phone Pacific energy and see if they might give you a deal if there were a half dozen people who wanted them. I am so happy with my stove i would buy one for my boat if the price was right. Carl McIntosh > Brent, and anyone else who has seen this stove.. > Is it possible to get a description, drawing or best yet a couple of > photos of this stove? I was planning on custom building one to fit and > would be very interested in seeing/hearing etc. about the design > features that make this stove so good. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Pacific energy makes some of the mmost efficient woodstoves ever > > built.Friends say they only have to be loaded every 12 hours for > > continuous burning. Unfortunatly I've heard that they no longer make > > their smallest model, an ideal size for a boat. | 7209|7209|2005-03-19 23:28:54|Matt|BS 26 Plans cost|Hi Folks, Can anyone tll me what the plans for the BS 26 will set me back? Canadian $ i believe are pretty much on a par with Aussie $ at the moment. Thanks, Matt| 7210|7210|2005-03-19 23:50:46|Matt|Building Sequence|I've been trying to figure out my next step - I seem so far from being able to start such a project i don't know what to do next, other that checking this group daily... I'm an inner urban, apartment dwelling, white collar worker (self employed accountant) who is well read, but wouldn't know one end of a plasma cutter from the other. But 2005 is the year in which i move out of the dreamer camp and into the doer camp. So, how does this plan of attack seem to those who've done it: 1. Buy the plans for the BS 26. 2. Learn to weld. 3. Make some of the detail items in my garage (bow roller, anchor winch, perhaps even the bilge keels, skeg, and rudder - i presume there are details of these in the plans?) 4. Find a suitable space - one where i can make lots of noise, lock up the tools, not too far from home or sources of supplies (how big should such a space be?). 5. Buy the plates for the hull and deck (anyone in Australia gotten a price for these? We seem to have a steel shortage in this country, it's all being sent to China. Anyone out there who has converted the materials list in the files section to metric? Is it worth paying the steel supplier to cut the hull shapes?) 6. Get cracking. 7. Go sailing. The last two are a bit of a joke off course, i realise there's a world of work between steps 6 and 7. Can anyone see any gaping (or costly) holes in this sequence? When i read the posts in this group i get the impression that the majority of members who've built boats have either done so professionally in the past or have lived and worked on and around boats for decades. I haven't which is why i'm hoping that the plans are drawn/written so that a five year old could follow them. Regarding the space to build, i realise that the steel truck has to be able get in and the boat (eventually) has to be able to get out. But if i have to pay rent for such a space, for how long would i need it. Say i get the help of a professional welder for a while, and i can spend about 20 hours per week on the thing - how many months rent should i factor in? How much of the work (if any) can be done "on the water" once the basic hull is complete (i have a mooring), to save on rent. Sorry to write such a thesis, but there are so many members here in the know that sometimes newbies like myself need things expalained very simply and with lots of detail. Cheers, Matt Melbourne, Australia.| 7211|7209|2005-03-19 23:54:47|Matt|Re: BS 26 Plans cost|Oops, just found it in the Files section. That file was put in there in 2002, is the price still $200 for the BS26? Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Hi Folks, > Can anyone tll me what the plans for the BS 26 will set me back? > Canadian $ i believe are pretty much on a par with Aussie $ at the > moment. > Thanks, > Matt | 7212|7210|2005-03-20 00:57:49|jericoera|Re: Building Sequence|Matt I am at the same stage as you! For one, the prices listed under the files section have the bs 26 plans listed at $200. Next, the tools are not that expensive for the job having just bought a welder myself. In Canada, you can pick up a new AC arc welder for $350 that will be suitable. You don't need that many tools really that are exotic. Most of what i see are pretty common items. As to the building, I plan to learn to weld and probably at least for part have an experienced welder on hand to help facilitate a proper job being done. As for size, take your time before you decide on a 26 footer. Most boaters end up getting what we call here in Canada as footitis wanting larger vessels. Brent himself to my knowledge lives on a 31 footer and his 36 footer is highly popular to which I have bought plans. Also it may depend on what kind of keel arrangement you want. Many people who have put fin keels on their vessels now wished they had twin keels and those with twin keels can't imagine anything else. Good for you and good luck..there is lots of good info here on the how to side of things and Alex (the moderator) is putting together an actual how to video at this moment. Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > I've been trying to figure out my next step - I seem so far from > being able to start such a project i don't know what to do next, > other that checking this group daily... > I'm an inner urban, apartment dwelling, white collar worker (self > employed accountant) who is well read, but wouldn't know one end of a > plasma cutter from the other. > But 2005 is the year in which i move out of the dreamer camp and into > the doer camp. > So, how does this plan of attack seem to those who've done it: > 1. Buy the plans for the BS 26. > 2. Learn to weld. > 3. Make some of the detail items in my garage (bow roller, anchor > winch, perhaps even the bilge keels, skeg, and rudder - i presume > there are details of these in the plans?) > 4. Find a suitable space - one where i can make lots of noise, lock > up the tools, not too far from home or sources of supplies (how big > should such a space be?). > 5. Buy the plates for the hull and deck (anyone in Australia gotten a > price for these? We seem to have a steel shortage in this country, > it's all being sent to China. Anyone out there who has converted the > materials list in the files section to metric? Is it worth paying the > steel supplier to cut the hull shapes?) > 6. Get cracking. > 7. Go sailing. > The last two are a bit of a joke off course, i realise there's a > world of work between steps 6 and 7. > Can anyone see any gaping (or costly) holes in this sequence? > > When i read the posts in this group i get the impression that the > majority of members who've built boats have either done so > professionally in the past or have lived and worked on and around > boats for decades. > I haven't which is why i'm hoping that the plans are drawn/written so > that a five year old could follow them. > Regarding the space to build, i realise that the steel truck has to > be able get in and the boat (eventually) has to be able to get out. > But if i have to pay rent for such a space, for how long would i need > it. Say i get the help of a professional welder for a while, and i > can spend about 20 hours per week on the thing - how many months rent > should i factor in? How much of the work (if any) can be done "on the > water" once the basic hull is complete (i have a mooring), to save on > rent. > Sorry to write such a thesis, but there are so many members here in > the know that sometimes newbies like myself need things expalained > very simply and with lots of detail. > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, Australia. | 7213|7213|2005-03-20 12:14:48|ve7vmt2001|Wood Stove|Gerald- I looked around for a small stove as I was going to put it in a 500sq ft room and didn't want it damped down and always smoking. I bought a (Canadian made) Drolet, Compak model. http://www.drolet.ca It's a basic stove, just what an Origami boat needs, right? John.| 7214|7214|2005-03-20 13:17:23|rossburn24|Chine/centerline adjustment for aluminum construction?|Has anyone moved the chine closer to the centerline in an aluminum construction? How would one go about calculating this? What is a reasonable adjustment? Is the idea that the chine should be lowered in aluminum since the displacement will be less than the steel version? Iebeling| 7215|7214|2005-03-20 14:13:40|Gerd|Re: Chine/centerline adjustment for aluminum construction?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rossburn24" wrote: > > Has anyone moved the chine closer to the centerline in an aluminum > construction? How would one go about calculating this? What is a > reasonable adjustment? > Is the idea that the chine should be lowered in aluminum since the > displacement will be less than the steel version? Why would you want to do that? Lowering the chine (at the same distance from the centerline) would _increase_ displaced volume, whereas moving it inside but at the same height to the WL would indeed reduce volume but also reduce your beam at the waterline. If you want to go for a signifanctly lighter hull, you would really need to re-design, and probably go for a hull with less draft. (hull draft, not draft at the keel) Gerd| 7216|7214|2005-03-20 14:58:23|rossburn24|Re: Chine/centerline adjustment for aluminum construction?|> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rossburn24" > wrote: Has anyone moved the chine closer to the centerline in an aluminum construction? How would one go about calculating this? What is a reasonable adjustment? Is the idea that the chine should be lowered in aluminum since the displacement will be less than the steel version? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: Why would you want to do that? Lowering the chine (at the same distance from the centerline) would _increase_ displaced volume, whereas moving it inside but at the same height to the WL would indeed reduce volume but also reduce your beam at the waterline. If you want to go for a signifanctly lighter hull, you would really need to re-design, and probably go for a hull with less draft. (hull draft, not draft at the keel) Gerd Brent discusses it on page 92 of his book - "As aluminum would allow the finished weight of the boat to be considerably lighter, one can reduce the displacement by moving the centreline pattern amidship, a little closer to the chine, then re-calculating the displacement. This would leave the centres of buoyancy, prismatic coefficient, and fore and aft weight distribution pretty much the same as the original steel design, and change only the displacement." I assume the centreline to chine distance decreases slightly. Perhaps Brent could comment. Iebeling | 7217|7214|2005-03-20 15:49:40|Gerd|Re: Chine/centerline adjustment for aluminum construction?|Didn't remember that passage, but sounds to me as if he proposes to shave something off from the centerline, at the bottom of the half- hull, which then would reduce hull draft & volume. Seems easier to do also than modifying the dart itself. ...Brent? ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rossburn24" wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rossburn24" > > wrote: > > Has anyone moved the chine closer to the centerline in an aluminum > construction? How would one go about calculating this? What is a > reasonable adjustment? > Is the idea that the chine should be lowered in aluminum since the > displacement will be less than the steel version? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Why would you want to do that? Lowering the chine (at the same > distance from the centerline) would _increase_ displaced volume, > whereas moving it inside but at the same height to the WL would > indeed reduce volume but also reduce your beam at the waterline. > If you want to go for a signifanctly lighter hull, you would really > need to re-design, and probably go for a hull with less draft. (hull > draft, not draft at the keel) > > Gerd > > > Brent discusses it on page 92 of his book - "As aluminum would allow > the finished weight of the boat to be considerably lighter, one can > reduce the displacement by moving the centreline pattern amidship, a > little closer to the chine, then re-calculating the displacement. > This would leave the centres of buoyancy, prismatic coefficient, and > fore and aft weight distribution pretty much the same as the > original steel design, and change only the displacement." > > I assume the centreline to chine distance decreases slightly. > Perhaps Brent could comment. > > Iebeling | 7218|7210|2005-03-20 16:16:38|Alex Christie|Re: Building Sequence|Matt, You building sequence looks fine and very logical. My advice first off is to not be afraid to jump in and get at it. If taking a short course in welding gives you confidence to take a stab at building small parts (and pre-building the keels is an excellent idea), then go for it. One thing we all suffer from lately is an overwhelming awe at "modern technology" because the world around us is becoming more and more so technologically complex that we begin to believe that we are powerless to create anything ourselves. The process you'll encounter in building these boats is actually very low-tech, not much more than the bringing together of "Fire and Steel", with the zap of an electrode standing in for the intense heat of a forge. In fact, forge welding is a real process which had already been around for hundreds of years, long before humans conquered electricity. Learning to weld is not a Dark Art, and anyone can do it, with a little perseverance. To do it with finesse and accuracy takes longer, but it still does not require a PhD in welding. In other words, you should understand that tacking the boat together with 6011 AC stick and a cheap AC welder won't require millions of years of experience and training, and this means you can get that stage done without a lot of problems. Welds are not required to be pretty at this stage, just strong (good penetration). Cross one bridge at a time, and by the time you are getting down to finishing welding runs and more detailed work you'll have have the skills to finish it off nicely. Reading stuff online has been pretty handy for me too: http://www.lincolnelectric.com has been just one of the sources I've used (click on "knowledge" and you'll find tons of useful articles to read). I found that having a bit of book knowledge, plus trying to give it a go by yourself, plus having advice and mentoring from an experienced welder is a magic combination which will put you into a whole new set of skills which will see you through your project and beyond (ie, someone paying you). If you go through the process, I can almost guarantee you that you'll come out at the other end a changed person, never looking at the "made" world the same way. Before you learned anything, you might have believed that everything has to be "bought", when in fact that is so very far from the truth. And this goes beyond welded structures and extends into all manner of things. Can you build a radio if you had to? Yes, because the knowledge is out there, as well as all the bits and pieces, you just need to dig around and get to it. The confidence gained from building the boat propels you to take on things you might not have bothered to before. Can you build a watermaker? Ya, it'll be in Brent's book soon, if not already! Plasma cutting takes about 2 minutes to learn the basics, and a few minutes learning safety are always minutes well spent (eye protection, hand protection, etc). Also, starting off with stainless welding all your bits and pieces is ridiculously easy -- stainless rod is a real pleasure to weld with once you have the right amperage setting for the thickness of rod. Other than generating a lot of heat and needing to keep your runs short to prevent distortion (lock you piece together with short tack-welds before doing longer welds), it is not hard to do. And the way that slag just pops off leaving a shiny stainless steel bead underneath is very satisfying and confidence-inspiring. China buying up all the steel on the planet (if they could buy steel from another planet they'd buy that too) has been very hard on steel prices. They are buying steel and building subs and ships and other armaments so fast that I wonder if it may already match or surpass the build-up Nazi Germany's build-up before ww 2. China is fulfilling a long-held promise to itself to be the most dominant power on Earth. Scary politics aside, it is still cheaper to buy this inflated steel and build a boat yourself than it is to buy a new boat off the shelf, or even a used one, for that matter. And put some of that saved money into Chinese language lessons -- if our leaders keep ignoring China's militarization you may need the skill to serve your new masters. I wouldn't bother having someone else cut the steel, if you are thinking of going that route. You'll be set up to do it anyhow, so you might as well do it yourself. Plus, as my DVD shows, you need to lay out your pattern cutting to maximize use of the plates, and while a company might do this, it would require vigilance on your part to ensure they do it. As soon as it looks like you have to supervise their work, then you might as well be doing it yourself and keeping cash in pocket. There are the odd pieces you leave a little long, too, which you only trim once you've done the first pull. This is also in the DVD. Hiring a welder now and then will give you ample opportunity to learn some techniques, and most welders should not mind giving you pointers. After all, the pay is the same either way. If they don't want to share knowledge at that time, then send the doorknob on his way and hire another welder until you find a good mentor. I have found, too, that welders who have dropped by my project have grasped almost instantly what is going on, even without boat building experience. It is their favourite building medium, so they have an open mind, which is actually quite re-freshing. I believe Brent has always found it easier to explain his building techniques to welders rather than boat-builders, and I'm inclined to agree. I wouldn't say the plans are simple enough for a five-year old, but what you need is there, plus you have the support of the group, Brent online, myself, his book, and soon my DVD, about 4 hours of it. With all that information around, you can't go wrong. You don't need a long history of related experience to build these boats, and it may only be an illusion that we know that much, simply because there is so much knowledge grouped into once zone here. We all come from different back-grounds, and I still consider myself a beginner. Ok, I'd better get back to editing the DVD, I hope that helps. Alex On 19-Mar-05, at 8:50 PM, Matt wrote: > > > I've been trying to figure out my next step - I seem so far from > being able to start such a project i don't know what to do next, > other that checking this group daily... > I'm an inner urban, apartment dwelling, white collar worker (self > employed accountant) who is well read, but wouldn't know one end of a > plasma cutter from the other. > But 2005 is the year in which i move out of the dreamer camp and into > the doer camp. > So, how does this plan of attack seem to those who've done it: > 1. Buy the plans for the BS 26. > 2. Learn to weld. > 3. Make some of the detail items in my garage (bow roller, anchor > winch, perhaps even the bilge keels, skeg, and rudder - i presume > there are details of these in the plans?) > 4. Find a suitable space - one where i can make lots of noise, lock > up the tools, not too far from home or sources of supplies (how big > should such a space be?). > 5. Buy the plates for the hull and deck (anyone in Australia gotten a > price for these? We seem to have a steel shortage in this country, > it's all being sent to China. Anyone out there who has converted the > materials list in the files section to metric? Is it worth paying the > steel supplier to cut the hull shapes?) > 6. Get cracking. > 7. Go sailing. > The last two are a bit of a joke off course, i realise there's a > world of work between steps 6 and 7. > Can anyone see any gaping (or costly) holes in this sequence? > > When i read the posts in this group i get the impression that the > majority of members who've built boats have either done so > professionally in the past or have lived and worked on and around > boats for decades. > I haven't which is why i'm hoping that the plans are drawn/written so > that a five year old could follow them. > Regarding the space to build, i realise that the steel truck has to > be able get in and the boat (eventually) has to be able to get out. > But if i have to pay rent for such a space, for how long would i need > it. Say i get the help of a professional welder for a while, and i > can spend about 20 hours per week on the thing - how many months rent > should i factor in? How much of the work (if any) can be done "on the > water" once the basic hull is complete (i have a mooring), to save on > rent. > Sorry to write such a thesis, but there are so many members here in > the know that sometimes newbies like myself need things expalained > very simply and with lots of detail. > Cheers, > Matt > Melbourne, Australia. > > | 7219|7219|2005-03-20 18:36:20|oldfijinerd|full keel on origami boat|I live in Maine, the land of millions of lobster pots, and I think that the twin bilge keels and skeg could be quite problematic for snagging pot warps. Has anyone ever put a long full shallow draft keel , such as a Gazelle's, in between the two halves of an origami boat such as a BS 36??| 7220|7213|2005-03-20 19:14:03|servo_bot|Re: Wood Stove|Here are some nifty little stoves: http://www.marinestove.com/ They're a bit pricey, but pretty cool. Harbor Freight has a very reasonably priced cast iron model: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=32058 Only $169 US.| 7221|7210|2005-03-20 21:28:12|seeratlas|Re: Building Sequence|-WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) btw, I am total agreement with what you've written, and if it makes you feel any better..I'm supposed to know something about this:) seer < former member of the East Asian Strategic Studies Center(us gov "think" tank..), and last general counsel to the US 'Liason" officer to Taiwan (what replaced our 'Ambassador after Nixon's normalization with the Reds). I gotta tell you. To see someone north of the border write something like this just makes my day. :) You'd be amazed how many of the "intelligenzia" are incapable of connecting the dots you have so succinctly mapped out. One of my mentors recently passed away. One of the last things he said to me was that the 21st century posed far greater dangers than all of the wars of the 20th put together. He was not only 'supposed' to know something about such things, he DID know something about them. Now, to tie this back to the subject of this group. Current thought is that China is going to have to do something soon to throw some cold water on their expansion rate or risk a severe recession if not depression. Floating the yen, raising interest rates, the horrific rise in the price of crude oil, and cutting back govt construction 'should' bring some of the commodity prices back down a bit by later this year. With any luck, steel will be one of them. > very satisfying and confidence-inspiring. > > China buying up all the steel on the planet (if they could buy steel > from another planet they'd buy that too) has been very hard on steel > prices. They are buying steel and building subs and ships and other > armaments so fast that I wonder if it may already match or surpass the > build-up Nazi Germany's build-up before ww 2. China is fulfilling a > long-held promise to itself to be the most dominant power on Earth. > Scary politics aside, it is still cheaper to buy this inflated steel > and build a boat yourself than it is to buy a new boat off the shelf, > or even a used one, for that matter. And put some of that saved money > into Chinese language lessons -- if our leaders keep ignoring China's > militarization you may need the skill to serve your new masters. > > | 7222|7202|2005-03-20 21:47:51|Alex Christie|Re: Manual anchor winch -Swain design|I think Brent uses mostly wire on his 31 footer, and attaches lead weights (called kellets, I think?) for catenary when needed (pulling the anchor line down so it lays on the bottom and keeps the anchor set). This keeps the CG a little lower by having the option of putting those lead weights down below when not needed. The use of chain on a larger boat like the 36 is often limited to the first section of the rode leading from the anchor, after which rope or wire is used, though I'm not sure how many feet of chain is used, on average (needs enough to pull down the anchor line and get the setting angle right. This means that the photo you see in the files section I just posted shows what looks like a drum full of chain when in fact it is chain on the other layers and rope or wire for the rest, which is of course lighter than chain alone. If anyone out there is also a 36 foot owner, please chime in here with information about your own anchoring system if it is different than what I describe plus let us know how much chain you have on the first part of the anchor line. We should then be able to calculate the over all weight if we know the length of both wire or rope and the chain. Alex Christie On 19-Mar-05, at 4:16 PM, servo_bot wrote: > > > Excellent! I never even considered that advantage. And the fact that > you can fabricate it out of scrap metal, on the cheap, makes the deal > even sweeter! > > I wonder if keeping the chain on deck (on a smaller design) adversely > affect center of gravity? In comparison to storing ground tackle way > out at the bow, the deck location probably doesn't elevate the weight > (enough) to significantly change center of gravity. > > | 7223|7210|2005-03-20 21:51:12|Michael Casling|Re: Building Sequence|If you stay abreast of the financial times you will know that China is putting the breaks on its economy, they are well aware that their economy is too strong. The US now buys more goods from China than Japan, this helps China's economy. The US has a $400 billion a year trade deficit that is unsustainable, so is their current deficit and the future of the social security system. I am quoting Mr Greenspan on the last two. I am not pointing fingers or blame just stating what is in the finanacial news. A few years ago Canada had unsustainable deficits and other problems. The resource sector will probably be strong for about ten years so the prices are not likely to go down soon. It may pain to buy steel at todays prices but they will likely be just as high or higher tomorrow. We had the same scenario when we built our house in 1992, the price of wood was going up about $1000- per month. To match the political statement on flip flop check out the US position on cows and wood crossing the US border. In Vancouver we unload beef from Hawaii bound for the mainland US. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building Sequence -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) btw, I am total agreement with what you've written, and if it makes you feel any better..I'm supposed to know something about this:) seer < former member of the East Asian Strategic Studies Center(us gov "think" tank..), and last general counsel to the US 'Liason" officer to Taiwan (what replaced our 'Ambassador after Nixon's normalization with the Reds). I gotta tell you. To see someone north of the border write something like this just makes my day. :) You'd be amazed how many of the "intelligenzia" are incapable of connecting the dots you have so succinctly mapped out. One of my mentors recently passed away. One of the last things he said to me was that the 21st century posed far greater dangers than all of the wars of the 20th put together. He was not only 'supposed' to know something about such things, he DID know something about them. Now, to tie this back to the subject of this group. Current thought is that China is going to have to do something soon to throw some cold water on their expansion rate or risk a severe recession if not depression. Floating the yen, raising interest rates, the horrific rise in the price of crude oil, and cutting back govt construction 'should' bring some of the commodity prices back down a bit by later this year. With any luck, steel will be one of them. > very satisfying and confidence-inspiring. > > China buying up all the steel on the planet (if they could buy steel > from another planet they'd buy that too) has been very hard on steel > prices. They are buying steel and building subs and ships and other > armaments so fast that I wonder if it may already match or surpass the > build-up Nazi Germany's build-up before ww 2. China is fulfilling a > long-held promise to itself to be the most dominant power on Earth. > Scary politics aside, it is still cheaper to buy this inflated steel > and build a boat yourself than it is to buy a new boat off the shelf, > or even a used one, for that matter. And put some of that saved money > into Chinese language lessons -- if our leaders keep ignoring China's > militarization you may need the skill to serve your new masters. > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7224|7210|2005-03-21 02:52:59|Matt|Re: Building Sequence|Thanks Alex, Encouraging words indeed, glad to know i'm on the right track and that i'm not Robinson Cruseau. Thank you for such a thorough reply, i really do appreciate it. Time to go look into some welding courses, and to send my money off to Brent for the BS26. And i'll be lining up with the rest of this group for a copy of your DVD when it's ready. Thanks also to Carl, and yes, the reason i'm going for the 26 is to avoid "footitis" - just about everyone who has written about boat size reckons smaller is better. I was given the opportunity to spend three weeks sailing an Adams 31 a couple of years back with three aboard, including myself. We weren't cramped, and she was easy to handle single handed with our watch system being four hours on, eight off. So i was alone at the helm frequently (usually at night - my most familiar element) and the boat was by no means a handful for me. On the China postings, when i'm ready to sail away i plan to do a clockwise journey around the Pacific; starting with Australia's east coast, all the way around the rim to Panama. So i plan to spend quite some time exploring the China coast - i promise to visit everyone in BC too. Cheers to all. Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Matt, > > You building sequence looks fine and very logical. > > My advice first off is to not be afraid to jump in and get at it. If > taking a short course in welding gives you confidence to take a stab at > building small parts (and pre-building the keels is an excellent idea), > then go for it. > > One thing we all suffer from lately is an overwhelming awe at "modern > technology" because the world around us is becoming more and more so > technologically complex that we begin to believe that we are powerless > to create anything ourselves. The process you'll encounter in building > these boats is actually very low-tech, not much more than the bringing > together of "Fire and Steel", with the zap of an electrode standing in > for the intense heat of a forge. In fact, forge welding is a real > process which had already been around for hundreds of years, long > before humans conquered electricity. > > Learning to weld is not a Dark Art, and anyone can do it, with a little > perseverance. To do it with finesse and accuracy takes longer, but it > still does not require a PhD in welding. In other words, you should > understand that tacking the boat together with 6011 AC stick and a > cheap AC welder won't require millions of years of experience and > training, and this means you can get that stage done without a lot of > problems. Welds are not required to be pretty at this stage, just > strong (good penetration). Cross one bridge at a time, and by the time > you are getting down to finishing welding runs and more detailed work > you'll have have the skills to finish it off nicely. Reading stuff > online has been pretty handy for me too: > http://www.lincolnelectric.com has been just one of the sources I've > used (click on "knowledge" and you'll find tons of useful articles to > read). I found that having a bit of book knowledge, plus trying to > give it a go by yourself, plus having advice and mentoring from an > experienced welder is a magic combination which will put you into a > whole new set of skills which will see you through your project and > beyond (ie, someone paying you). > > If you go through the process, I can almost guarantee you that you'll > come out at the other end a changed person, never looking at the "made" > world the same way. Before you learned anything, you might have > believed that everything has to be "bought", when in fact that is so > very far from the truth. And this goes beyond welded structures and > extends into all manner of things. Can you build a radio if you had > to? Yes, because the knowledge is out there, as well as all the bits > and pieces, you just need to dig around and get to it. The confidence > gained from building the boat propels you to take on things you might > not have bothered to before. Can you build a watermaker? Ya, it'll be > in Brent's book soon, if not already! > > Plasma cutting takes about 2 minutes to learn the basics, and a few > minutes learning safety are always minutes well spent (eye protection, > hand protection, etc). > > Also, starting off with stainless welding all your bits and pieces is > ridiculously easy -- stainless rod is a real pleasure to weld with > once you have the right amperage setting for the thickness of rod. > Other than generating a lot of heat and needing to keep your runs short > to prevent distortion (lock you piece together with short tack- welds > before doing longer welds), it is not hard to do. And the way that > slag just pops off leaving a shiny stainless steel bead underneath is > very satisfying and confidence-inspiring. > > China buying up all the steel on the planet (if they could buy steel > from another planet they'd buy that too) has been very hard on steel > prices. They are buying steel and building subs and ships and other > armaments so fast that I wonder if it may already match or surpass the > build-up Nazi Germany's build-up before ww 2. China is fulfilling a > long-held promise to itself to be the most dominant power on Earth. > Scary politics aside, it is still cheaper to buy this inflated steel > and build a boat yourself than it is to buy a new boat off the shelf, > or even a used one, for that matter. And put some of that saved money > into Chinese language lessons -- if our leaders keep ignoring China's > militarization you may need the skill to serve your new masters. > > I wouldn't bother having someone else cut the steel, if you are > thinking of going that route. You'll be set up to do it anyhow, so you > might as well do it yourself. Plus, as my DVD shows, you need to lay > out your pattern cutting to maximize use of the plates, and while a > company might do this, it would require vigilance on your part to > ensure they do it. As soon as it looks like you have to supervise > their work, then you might as well be doing it yourself and keeping > cash in pocket. There are the odd pieces you leave a little long, too, > which you only trim once you've done the first pull. This is also in > the DVD. > > Hiring a welder now and then will give you ample opportunity to learn > some techniques, and most welders should not mind giving you pointers. > After all, the pay is the same either way. If they don't want to share > knowledge at that time, then send the doorknob on his way and hire > another welder until you find a good mentor. I have found, too, that > welders who have dropped by my project have grasped almost instantly > what is going on, even without boat building experience. It is their > favourite building medium, so they have an open mind, which is actually > quite re-freshing. I believe Brent has always found it easier to > explain his building techniques to welders rather than boat- builders, > and I'm inclined to agree. > > I wouldn't say the plans are simple enough for a five-year old, but > what you need is there, plus you have the support of the group, Brent > online, myself, his book, and soon my DVD, about 4 hours of it. With > all that information around, you can't go wrong. You don't need a > long history of related experience to build these boats, and it may > only be an illusion that we know that much, simply because there is so > much knowledge grouped into once zone here. We all come from different > back-grounds, and I still consider myself a beginner. > > Ok, I'd better get back to editing the DVD, I hope that helps. > > Alex > > > > > > On 19-Mar-05, at 8:50 PM, Matt wrote: > > > > > > > I've been trying to figure out my next step - I seem so far from > > being able to start such a project i don't know what to do next, > > other that checking this group daily... > > I'm an inner urban, apartment dwelling, white collar worker (self > > employed accountant) who is well read, but wouldn't know one end of a > > plasma cutter from the other. > > But 2005 is the year in which i move out of the dreamer camp and into > > the doer camp. > > So, how does this plan of attack seem to those who've done it: > > 1. Buy the plans for the BS 26. > > 2. Learn to weld. > > 3. Make some of the detail items in my garage (bow roller, anchor > > winch, perhaps even the bilge keels, skeg, and rudder - i presume > > there are details of these in the plans?) > > 4. Find a suitable space - one where i can make lots of noise, lock > > up the tools, not too far from home or sources of supplies (how big > > should such a space be?). > > 5. Buy the plates for the hull and deck (anyone in Australia gotten a > > price for these? We seem to have a steel shortage in this country, > > it's all being sent to China. Anyone out there who has converted the > > materials list in the files section to metric? Is it worth paying the > > steel supplier to cut the hull shapes?) > > 6. Get cracking. > > 7. Go sailing. > > The last two are a bit of a joke off course, i realise there's a > > world of work between steps 6 and 7. > > Can anyone see any gaping (or costly) holes in this sequence? > > > > When i read the posts in this group i get the impression that the > > majority of members who've built boats have either done so > > professionally in the past or have lived and worked on and around > > boats for decades. > > I haven't which is why i'm hoping that the plans are drawn/written so > > that a five year old could follow them. > > Regarding the space to build, i realise that the steel truck has to > > be able get in and the boat (eventually) has to be able to get out. > > But if i have to pay rent for such a space, for how long would i need > > it. Say i get the help of a professional welder for a while, and i > > can spend about 20 hours per week on the thing - how many months rent > > should i factor in? How much of the work (if any) can be done "on the > > water" once the basic hull is complete (i have a mooring), to save on > > rent. > > Sorry to write such a thesis, but there are so many members here in > > the know that sometimes newbies like myself need things expalained > > very simply and with lots of detail. > > Cheers, > > Matt > > Melbourne, Australia. > > > > | 7225|7213|2005-03-21 05:46:59|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Wood Stove|Great looking stoves! Some seem large to me? It would also be a bit expensive to have them shipped down here to Brazil. I have a wood cooking stove in my kitchen. The fire box door is 5 inches high and 7 inches wide. It puts out one heck of a bunch of heat. I was thinking about a stove somewhat larger, than my kitchen stove, for the boat but only because you can use fire wood that is less uniform. The marinestove site is really great! From the information they give you building a stove should be much easier. Thanks for the response to my stove pipe question. Because of your comments my engineer partner has decided to believe me that it was a dumb idea all along. Gerald| 7226|7210|2005-03-21 07:43:17|sae140|Re: Building Sequence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > I'm an inner urban, apartment dwelling, white collar worker (self employed accountant) who is well read, but wouldn't know one end of a plasma cutter from the other. > But 2005 is the year in which i move out of the dreamer camp and into the doer camp. Nice post Matt - I'm sure there are many folk in your situation. A couple of oar strokes from this end ....... From the whole of your post I interpret "I seem so far from being able to start such a project i don't know what to do next" as being the main issue - that's it seems too BIG an issue to address ? Well, one answer to this is to break down this 'biggie' into bite-sized chunks - then pace yourself. You don't say whether you sail or not - if not - get some sailing in at the earliest opportunity. Advertise yourself as a flexible and willing crew - sail as many different types of boats as possible. (wrote this before I read your last post - I see now 'Not Applicable') Whilst you're in advertising mode (and asking around the yacht clubs etc., and being generally pro-active) offer your time/pair of hands on any steel boat-building project within a reasonable distance of home, with a view to swapping a day or two's labour for an hour of basic welding instruction. A few days actually working alongside an experienced welder for free will quite possibly be the best investment you will ever make. Then, as soon as you are able, find somewhere where you can sit down without distraction with an arc-welder and a bucketful of scrap steel and lay down bead after bead after bead, then start welding bits together and keep breaking 'em apart, until you're happy with the results. If you encounter any problems then ask for help on the web, including here. There's plenty of expertise around, and people willing to help. Then - sign-up for a welding course if you think you would benefit from it. At that point, go for plans, site, equipment, buy steel, start making a few bits. As you've already identified, there's a process involved when moving from the dreamer camp into the 'making it happen' camp. Committment is by far the biggest hurdle - the decision to either jump-in (without knowing for sure how things are going to turn out) or stay a spectator. But it's highly advisable to temper the wanderlust with a dose of the reality of sailing, and even more so the reality of working with steel - the dirt and noise really have to be experienced first-hand: you won't get this from books or websites. As far as you are able, try and decide from the earliest opportunity whether you want to be a boat-builder, or a boat-sailer. This may well influence your decision whether to build or buy in the first place(!); whether to invest in a comprehensive welding course or employ a pro for the critical bits; and/or influence your decision whether to buy or hire enough basic welding gear for the one job, or invest in high quality or specialist kit. For example, you don't really need a plasma cutter for one boat - but by the gods they make the bulk cutting of steel so much easier and quicker. Is there anyone in your town of a like mind ? Share site/ tools/ knowledge etc ? > Find a suitable space - one where i can make lots of noise, lock up the tools, not too far from home or sources of supplies (how big should such a space be?). I'd say 60' x 60' at a minimum. A 50'x 20' barn with some outside storage space would be ideal. You need space to store steel and work on it *and* keep the growing hull at the same time. Remember the need for a base capable of taking the tonnage with good road and crane access. A suitable power supply is highly desirable. You're right to identify finding a site nearby as important - distance can be psychologically defeating. For how long ? Who knows ? Some folks are up and in the water in just a few months - the majority take a year or two. Some boats are still being built after 10 or 20 years. Depends on committment/ time/ experience (in that order). Last thought - in terms of budgeting time for the project, think past building the basic hull. The lion's share of the work starts *after* the hull is constructed. Swapping your pen for an angle-grinder is gonna be a quantum leap - but what an adventure ! Good luck. Colin| 7227|7210|2005-03-21 08:37:04|seeratlas|Re: Building Sequence|We'll just have to see who's right won't we. Time will tell:) As for Beef etc. Just so you know, Bush represented he "would support it". Your PM presented the missle agreement as a "done deal". I believe one of your own political observers recently remarked that the incident has essentially rendered the PM 'irrelevant'. I would not go that far. After all there were some of us who counseled correctly. One thing more and more americans have learned over recent years, you can't always believe what you read in the papers..or the financial times for that matter. A more accurate statement would have been "China is SAYING that it is putting the breaks on its economy." I have a different take on the US deficit. To vastly simplify things, the American consumer is subsidizing the development of the rest of the world. The deficit is a wealth transfer. If the Americans decide to stop spending and start saving, unless the major economic powers pick up the slack quickly by firing up their own economies, they have some real trouble coming. Unfortunately, Germany, France, etc. seem to have no stomach for this. Look at those unemployment numbers. Most likely winner here seems to be the UK. China does not yet have the capacity to absorb all of this alone. Unless they make some changes quickly...well, these are dangerous times. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > If you stay abreast of the financial times you will know that China is putting the breaks on its economy, they are well aware that their economy is too strong. The US now buys more goods from China than Japan, this helps China's economy. The US has a $400 billion a year trade deficit that is unsustainable, so is their current deficit and the future of the social security system. I am quoting Mr Greenspan on the last two. I am not pointing fingers or blame just stating what is in the finanacial news. A few years ago Canada had unsustainable deficits and other problems. The resource sector will probably be strong for about ten years so the prices are not likely to go down soon. It may pain to buy steel at todays prices but they will likely be just as high or higher tomorrow. We had the same scenario when we built our house in 1992, the price of wood was going up about $1000- per month. To match the political statement on flip flop check out the US position on cows and wood crossing the US border. In Vancouver we unload beef from Hawaii bound for the mainland US. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building Sequence > > > > -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) > > Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle > defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) > > btw, I am total agreement with what you've written, and if it makes > you feel any better..I'm supposed to know something about this:) > > seer < former member of the East Asian Strategic Studies Center(us gov > "think" tank..), and last general counsel to the US 'Liason" officer > to Taiwan (what replaced our 'Ambassador after Nixon's normalization > with the Reds). > > I gotta tell you. To see someone north of the border write something > like this just makes my day. :) You'd be amazed how many of the > "intelligenzia" are incapable of connecting the dots you have so > succinctly mapped out. > > One of my mentors recently passed away. One of the last things he said > to me was that the 21st century posed far greater dangers than all of > the wars of the 20th put together. He was not only 'supposed' to know > something about such things, he DID know something about them. > > Now, to tie this back to the subject of this group. Current thought is > that China is going to have to do something soon to throw some cold > water on their expansion rate or risk a severe recession if not > depression. Floating the yen, raising interest rates, the horrific > rise in the price of crude oil, and cutting back govt construction > 'should' bring some of the commodity prices back down a bit by later > this year. With any luck, steel will be one of them. > > > very satisfying and confidence-inspiring. > > > > China buying up all the steel on the planet (if they could buy > steel > > from another planet they'd buy that too) has been very hard on > steel > > prices. They are buying steel and building subs and ships and > other > > armaments so fast that I wonder if it may already match or surpass > the > > build-up Nazi Germany's build-up before ww 2. China is fulfilling > a > > long-held promise to itself to be the most dominant power on Earth. > > > Scary politics aside, it is still cheaper to buy this inflated > steel > > and build a boat yourself than it is to buy a new boat off the > shelf, > > or even a used one, for that matter. And put some of that saved > money > > into Chinese language lessons -- if our leaders keep ignoring > China's > > militarization you may need the skill to serve your new masters. > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7228|7228|2005-03-21 09:12:26|dagobert160l|What is a blog?|I found this url surfing, http://blogs.ardice.com But can someone explain to me what a blog is? - Dagobert160l| 7229|7228|2005-03-21 11:24:25|bilgekeeldave|Re: What is a blog?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dagobert160l" wrote: > > I found this url surfing, http://blogs.ardice.com > But can someone explain to me what a blog is? - Dagobert160l It's short for 'Weblog', it is an online diary. Dave| 7230|7210|2005-03-21 11:30:53|servo_bot|Re: Building Sequence|I'm with you, Matt. I'm ready to DO SOMETHING, not just think about it! Because of limitations in workspace and funding, however, I had to abandon the dream of building Swain's 26 footer and start smaller. I'm building a little 19'8" steel design by William Atkin, the Liza Jane: It's not the icebreaker that Brent's designs seem to be, being built of only 12 gage plate. But, it should go together fast and be sufficiently tough for short offshore passages during a family adventure in the tropics. Should be tougher than plywood or fiberglass, I'm quite sure. Much to the dismay of my wife, this weekend I levelled my backyard and began building a 24 x 10 shed---a big carport esentially---to keep rain off my project. I have a wired shed at one end, where I can keep my tools secure. It's only 115, but for the thin plate I'll be joining, I'm pretty certain a small welder can handle the job. If I have to, I can get a BIG, FAT, expensive extension cord to run from my dryer closet to my building space. It's only about 10 feet away. For the majority of the job, I have a Hobart MIG welder. It can reliably weld 12 gage mild steel in a single pass and when I'm REALLY careful, I can do it without much plate distorion. Fairness schmairness, anyway. As long as the boat stays together and doesn't leak, I don't care about some bumps or bends here and there. For anything thicker, I bought a 220 DC stick welder at Harbor Freight for next to nothing. Note: In my welding lab, I have access to numerically controlled plasma cutters. WHEEEEE! Now here's the major coup: my wife and I recently had our first child. I really hate my crappy office job, so she's allowing me to attend welding school full time by night. Because of the dubious quality and ridiculous expense of child care, by day I'm going to be Mr. Mom. When it's naptime, between 9 to 5, I'm going to be working my butt off to get the odds and ends of this boat together! MAY 20th is D-Day! I can't wait! I've been taking stick welding classes since January and I'm already confident that I can join two plates with structual certifiability using GMAW and SMAW processes. I'm proficient at welding the simple joints used in the building of the Liza Jane. I hope I can finally make my dreams reality this time. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > I'm an inner urban, apartment dwelling, white collar worker (self > employed accountant) who is well read, but wouldn't know one end of a > plasma cutter from the other. > > But 2005 is the year in which i move out of the dreamer camp and > into the doer camp. | 7231|7231|2005-03-21 13:14:07|nortje_wynand|Welding Electrodes|Elsewhere I read that someone recommended an E6011 electrode (welding rod) for use with a small AC arc welder. Assuming one is building with mildsteel plate, I would rather recommend using an E6013 electrode (AWS)| 7232|7231|2005-03-21 17:13:51|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Welding Electrodes|The 6011 produces better penetration and requires less surface prep. (i.e. can be used on dirty, rusted steel). I always do my tack welds with 6011 no matter what rod the rest of the job will use. ----- Original Message ----- From: "nortje_wynand" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:13 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Electrodes > > > Elsewhere I read that someone recommended an E6011 electrode (welding > rod) for use with a small AC arc welder. > > Assuming one is building with mildsteel plate, I would rather > recommend using an E6013 electrode (AWS) > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/05 > > | 7233|7210|2005-03-21 18:09:29|Gary|Re: Building Sequence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) > > Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle > defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) Why missile defence in North America? The missiles are already here. 10.3 million illegal immigrants in US and 200-330k in Canada. Easier to assemble nukes here. Armaments are for brush fires and profits the latter of which Eisenhhower warned Americans of in 1962 famous farewell speach i.e., "acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought," by this military-industrial complex. Easier still would be for the release of a tiny quantity of super virus strains (1918 flu or new more virulent asian bird varieties)here. Millions of casualties for the price of a plane ticket. Apologies to origami site, I could not let such a jingoistic b.s. comment go unanswered. Gary| 7234|7209|2005-03-21 20:29:21|brentswain38|Re: BS 26 Plans cost|Yes , the plans for the 26 are still $200. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > Oops, just found it in the Files section. > That file was put in there in 2002, is the price still $200 for the > BS26? > Matt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > > > Hi Folks, > > Can anyone tll me what the plans for the BS 26 will set me back? > > Canadian $ i believe are pretty much on a par with Aussie $ at the > > moment. > > Thanks, > > Matt | 7235|7214|2005-03-21 20:34:03|brentswain38|Re: Chine/centerline adjustment for aluminum construction?|One 40 footer moved it in three inches at the centre. That would allow for the lighter material. but people with al l their worldly belongings tend to load a boat far below wjhere it floayts empty and some would prefer the exttra weight bearing capacity. For the 36 moving it 3 inches would give you a displacement of 14,000 lbs, reasonable for an empty boat, but light for a boat fully loaded for offshore cruising, or several people living aboard full time. Some people travel light while others , like me, are real packrats. I wouldn't try to second guess what a particular client's habits will turn out to be. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rossburn24" wrote: > > Has anyone moved the chine closer to the centerline in an aluminum > construction? How would one go about calculating this? What is a > reasonable adjustment? > > Is the idea that the chine should be lowered in aluminum since the > displacement will be less than the steel version? > > Iebeling | 7236|7219|2005-03-21 20:35:45|brentswain38|Re: full keel on origami boat|One did, a hoorendous job of matching the cutout. Others have just put a bar between the single keel and the skeg. A good slope to the front of the skeg does the same job. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "oldfijinerd" wrote: > > I live in Maine, the land of millions of lobster pots, and I think > that the twin bilge keels and skeg could be quite problematic for > snagging pot warps. Has anyone ever put a long full shallow draft > keel , such as a Gazelle's, in between the two halves of an origami > boat such as a BS 36?? | 7237|7210|2005-03-21 21:27:47|Alex Christie|origami politics|Okay, we'd better get out of politics and back to the boats! This all started with my comments about China and steel, and I should have bit my tongue! Let's all just keep a good weather eye on the old gal, eh? All economic ups are always followed by downs (where else can it go?), and steel will then hopefully normalize its prices. Whether China puts the breaks on herself, or whether it forced by an economic down-turn, the price should drop either way. Still cheaper to build your own boat in steel than to buy, even with higher prices on steel. Alex| 7238|7202|2005-03-22 00:24:44|brian vezina|Re: Manual anchor winch -Swain design|Alex: I have 110 ft of 5/16 Hi-test chain attached to 150ft of nylon rope on my BS36. I used Hitest so I would not have to go up to 3/8 inch chain and extra weight. Brian --- Alex Christie wrote: > I think Brent uses mostly wire on his 31 footer, and > attaches lead > weights (called kellets, I think?) for catenary when > needed (pulling > the anchor line down so it lays on the bottom and > keeps the anchor > set). This keeps the CG a little lower by having > the option of putting > those lead weights down below when not needed. The > use of chain on a > larger boat like the 36 is often limited to the > first section of the > rode leading from the anchor, after which rope or > wire is used, though > I'm not sure how many feet of chain is used, on > average (needs enough > to pull down the anchor line and get the setting > angle right. This > means that the photo you see in the files section I > just posted shows > what looks like a drum full of chain when in fact it > is chain on the > other layers and rope or wire for the rest, which is > of course lighter > than chain alone. > > If anyone out there is also a 36 foot owner, please > chime in here with > information about your own anchoring system if it is > different than > what I describe plus let us know how much chain you > have on the first > part of the anchor line. We should then be able to > calculate the over > all weight if we know the length of both wire or > rope and the chain. > > Alex Christie > > On 19-Mar-05, at 4:16 PM, servo_bot wrote: > > > > > > > Excellent! I never even considered that advantage. > And the fact that > > you can fabricate it out of scrap metal, on the > cheap, makes the deal > > even sweeter! > > > > I wonder if keeping the chain on deck (on a > smaller design) adversely > > affect center of gravity? In comparison to storing > ground tackle way > > out at the bow, the deck location probably doesn't > elevate the weight > > (enough) to significantly change center of > gravity. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 7239|7219|2005-03-22 01:51:27|put_to_sea|Re: full keel on origami boat|> A good slope to the front of the skeg does the same job. > Brent > Brent, How much slope would be too much. The 36 plans show a pretty steep slope and I had thought of making the leading edge less vertical for the same reason (less likely to snag). Thanks - Amos| 7240|7210|2005-03-22 02:08:42|Matt|Re: Building Sequence|Liza Jane is one cute boat. The description says frameless, but i gather she's not origami? Does building her use temporary frames or a jig? Congratulations on your domestic arrangement - i think more men should do it, why should the womenfolk have all the fun of child rearing? Re having to abandon the BS26, what was your biggest financial hurdle? Steel? Space to build? Good luck, i'll be thinking of you on the 20th May (my Dad's birthday, as it happens). To Colin, thanks for your words of encouragement too. I've done a fair bit of keel boat sailing, but in my part of the world there's really only racing, so hanging around the yacht club usually results in getting to be human ballast in what i can only describe as upper class dick measuring contests. Also, to tell the truth, although i have no callouses on my hands right now, at one time i was an electrician, so i sort of remember what some tools look like... And i've wrangled with the whole build-or-buy issue, and decided that i really do want to build - as an end in itself. Sage advice from all, thanks again. All the best, Matt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > I'm with you, Matt. I'm ready to DO SOMETHING, not just think about > it! Because of limitations in workspace and funding, however, I had to > abandon the dream of building Swain's 26 footer and start smaller. I'm > building a little 19'8" steel design by William Atkin, the Liza Jane: > > > > It's not the icebreaker that Brent's designs seem to be, being built > of only 12 gage plate. But, it should go together fast and be > sufficiently tough for short offshore passages during a family > adventure in the tropics. Should be tougher than plywood or > fiberglass, I'm quite sure. > > Much to the dismay of my wife, this weekend I levelled my backyard and > began building a 24 x 10 shed---a big carport esentially---to keep > rain off my project. I have a wired shed at one end, where I can keep > my tools secure. It's only 115, but for the thin plate I'll be > joining, I'm pretty certain a small welder can handle the job. If I > have to, I can get a BIG, FAT, expensive extension cord to run from my > dryer closet to my building space. It's only about 10 feet away. For > the majority of the job, I have a Hobart MIG welder. It can reliably > weld 12 gage mild steel in a single pass and when I'm REALLY careful, > I can do it without much plate distorion. Fairness schmairness, > anyway. As long as the boat stays together and doesn't leak, I don't > care about some bumps or bends here and there. For anything thicker, I > bought a 220 DC stick welder at Harbor Freight for next to nothing. > Note: In my welding lab, I have access to numerically controlled > plasma cutters. WHEEEEE! > > Now here's the major coup: my wife and I recently had our first child. > I really hate my crappy office job, so she's allowing me to attend > welding school full time by night. Because of the dubious quality and > ridiculous expense of child care, by day I'm going to be Mr. Mom. When > it's naptime, between 9 to 5, I'm going to be working my butt off to > get the odds and ends of this boat together! > > MAY 20th is D-Day! I can't wait! > > I've been taking stick welding classes since January and I'm already > confident that I can join two plates with structual certifiability > using GMAW and SMAW processes. I'm proficient at welding the simple > joints used in the building of the Liza Jane. > > I hope I can finally make my dreams reality this time. > > | 7241|7219|2005-03-22 03:05:48|Alex Christie|Re: full keel on origami boat|Don't forget there is a gusset which attaches to the leading edge of the skeg, reducing the slope by quite a bit where it meets the hull, so this may have already answered your needs. Alex On 21-Mar-05, at 10:50 PM, put_to_sea wrote: > > >> A good slope to the front of the skeg does the same job. >> Brent >> > > Brent, > > How much slope would be too much. The 36 plans show a pretty steep > slope and I had thought of making the leading edge less vertical for > the same reason (less likely to snag). > > Thanks - Amos > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7242|7242|2005-03-22 04:36:11|edward_stoneuk|Skeg cooling water expansion|Good Day everyone. Any info on the following would be appreciated. What allowances are necessary for the expansion of the coolant? Is it necessary to put airbleeds in the high points of the system to prevent air locks? Regards, Ted| 7243|7242|2005-03-22 06:07:31|shirleipmendes|Re: Skeg cooling water expansion|Good Day everyone. Any info on the following would be appreciated. What allowances are necessary for the expansion of the coolant? Is it necessary to put airbleeds in the high points of the system to prevent air locks? Regards, Ted Ted, Fresh water expansion from 60°F(16°C) to 190°F(88°C) is 3.2%. Air bleeding is necessary and can be done at the filling point. i use a small inox expansion tank with the level of the return water (hose) above the maximum level of the water when hot. Have a look at the Metal Boat Society there is a lot of information on this subject. Regards, Roger Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005 ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7244|7242|2005-03-22 09:10:46|edward_stoneuk|Re: Skeg cooling water expansion|Thanks Roger. Why I asked about the air lock is because there could be a high point in the system if the feed into the back of the skeg is higher than the pipe to it from the engine or if the back of the skeg is higher than the pipe into it, which appears to be the case in the drawings for the BS36. Might this air space act as an expansion tank? If not auto engines often have plastic expansion tanks, which I guess would suit. Does anyone Know the capacity of the skeg on a BS36? Regards, Ted| 7245|7245|2005-03-22 09:16:58|sae140|HD polypropylene|For anyone in the UK - Poundstretchers are selling colour-coded (red, green, blue, yellow) HD polypropylene cutting boards for £3.99. They are 18" x 12" x 12mm. Colin| 7246|7219|2005-03-22 13:30:51|put_to_sea|Re: full keel on origami boat|> Don't forget there is a gusset which attaches to the leading edge of > the skeg, reducing the slope by quite a bit where it meets the hull, so > this may have already answered your needs. > > Alex > The other reason I was tinking of reducing the slope was to get a little better angle for the prop shaft to increase prop efficiency. Amos| 7247|7219|2005-03-22 18:35:41|edward_stoneuk|Re: full keel on origami boat|Amos, I bent the leading edge pipe on the skeg on my BS36 to give it a smooth run in to the hull. I have uploaded a photo of it in Origamiboat 2 under Ted & Fiona's Boat Bits. There is a photo taken inside the hull of the support frame and the cut out for the prop shaft as well. Regards, Ted| 7248|7248|2005-03-22 21:17:09|hoss_manes|40ft plus project sailboat|hi , anyone out there know of any 40ft-plus project sailboats (steel or aluminum that have been started that maybe forsale , specially in the central or east side of canada? any design ? thanks| 7249|7214|2005-03-22 21:37:56|rossburn24|Re: Chine/centerline adjustment for aluminum construction?|Brent, That sounds good. Thanks. Iebeling --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: One 40 footer moved it in three inches at the centre. That would allow for the lighter material. but people with al l their worldly belongings tend to load a boat far below where it floats empty and some would prefer the exttra weight bearing capacity. For the 36 moving it 3 inches would give you a displacement of 14,000 lbs, reasonable for an empty boat, but light for a boat fully loaded for offshore cruising, or several people living aboard full time. Some people travel light while others , like me, are real packrats. I wouldn't try to second guess what a particular client's habits will turn out to be. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rossburn24" wrote: Has anyone moved the chine closer to the centerline in an aluminum construction? How would one go about calculating this? What is a reasonable adjustment? Is the idea that the chine should be lowered in aluminum since the displacement will be less than the steel version? Iebeling| 7250|7210|2005-03-22 23:07:01|seeratlas|Re: Building Sequence|Whoa Gary LOL, lets see, was the 'jingoistic' comment Alex's? or mine agreeing with him? If I remember my Funk & Wagnalls...I'm not so sure the definition of that term applies to either one, got a nice ring to it tho LOL. A wise man once said, 'every country has an army, either theirs, or someone else's. Giving the current starvation funding levels up north leads one to wonder just whose army is desired. As for the biological warfare references, don't you find it interesting that the two most virulent outbreaks of your bird flu have occurred in the two countries thought to have the most vigorous biological warfare research programs amongst the asian nations? Lastly regarding Eisenhower's comments, yes a wise man. Did you know that Khrushchev (russki spelling) expressed the same sentiment from his side? Of course, such sentiment must be tempered with the understanding that it was technology that defeated the Germans, the Japanese, and pretty much determined the resolution of every armed conflict in history, excepting perhaps the Spartan's heroic defense of the pass at Thermopylae where it was a combination of better technology (the spartan long spear, heavy armor, and large shields), superior tactics (the phalanx) and strategy (the inspired choice of the narrowest portion of the pass just infront of the defensive wall) which combined with the very nature of the spartans themselves resulted in some 300 odd Greeks killing approximately 20,000 Persians. To be fair it should be noted that the Spartans did have some allies with them but the classic version of the battle made for a better film :) Now as for the "b.s." reference, I'm assuming you don't mean Bachelors of Science. I guess I can also rule out a reference to the extended ban on Canadian beef imports, tho the relevance seems closer to the mark there.. Now, since Alex's position vis a vis the intentions of the Chinese appears to be one held by only a tiny fraction of your countrymen, I think the tongue in cheek illustration of that fact by my expressed surprise at his pronouncement does not constitute 'b.s.' by any stretch of the imagination. As for the second statement, that is merely a recitation of fact, tho 'b.s.' could very well be used to describe the events I was describing. A famous greek philosopher once observed that intelligence should be measured not by who gets the right answer, but by who asks the right questions. You open with "why missile defence in North America"...why indeed. let me pose a query. Why Gary, do you think North Korea wants nuclear armed long range ballistic missles? Why do you think China wants them? Why do you think Tehran wants them? Why did Pakistan want them? Why does Brazil want them? Argentina? Why do you think Japan HAS them? In fact given the current state of United States Nuclear capability, and its deployment, why in today's world would anyone want them? (you DO know that Canada has them too don't you?) Just who do you think these things are intended to be used against? I'll give you a hint... They don't call it the 'nuclear threat' for nothing. Whether anyone likes it or not, it appears the US is going to build an umbrella. It will cover us, and those we consider genuine friends. When the storm comes, those who wish to go stand in the rain are free to do so. Your government apparently wants a head start. Lastly, on the threat posed by biowarfare agents, the problem is not the killing of 'millions', its the killing of the 'right' millions. The former is easy. The latter very difficult. Bio agents make much better terror weaps than strategic ones. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) > > > > Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle > > defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) > > Why missile defence in North America? The missiles are already > here. 10.3 million illegal immigrants in US and 200-330k in > Canada. Easier to assemble nukes here. Armaments are for brush > fires and profits the latter of which Eisenhhower warned Americans > of in 1962 famous farewell speach i.e., "acquisition of unwarranted > influence, whether sought or unsought," by this military-industrial > complex. Easier still would be for the release of a tiny quantity > of super virus strains (1918 flu or new more virulent asian bird > varieties)here. Millions of casualties for the price of a plane > ticket. > > Apologies to origami site, I could not let such a jingoistic b.s. > comment go unanswered. > > Gary | 7252|7248|2005-03-22 23:25:12|jericoera|Re: 40ft plus project sailboat|Len Blower in the interior had and probably still does have a 40 ft Swain hull aluminum construction that he was prepared to sell-it is the standard keel. I can hook you up with him if you like. Everyone I have talked to said he is not only a professional aluminum welder but a decent honest guy. It would be worth a look at for sure. I had considere dit myself. Carl McIntosh shakeena@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hoss_manes" wrote: > > hi , > anyone out there know of any 40ft-plus project sailboats (steel or > aluminum that have been started that maybe forsale , specially > in the central or east side of canada? any design ? > thanks | 7253|7253|2005-03-22 23:42:46|jericoera|politics refreshing|For what its worth, I have found the political comments very thought provoking being that most of our news tends to be scewed in one direction or another and lacking the same frankness and freedom of thought. Thank you its stimulated my intellect even if it doesn't make my boatbuilding any better. For what its worth, no one needs to be at all worried about missile defence etc. National Geographic in a ten year old magazine said that the world could only feed XX amount of people which we surpassed roughly 7 or 8 years ago and has multiplied greatly since then. There had been another program I once viewed with the world science council recognizing that a "cull" of the populous will be necessary at some point to sustain human civilization. That's nature so what are you going to do about it? I am going to build a boat and enjoy the odd bottle of Chianti with my wife and paint sunsets. P.S. For those into electronics, Ultra low frequencies modulated at somewhere between 7-9 HZ create all kind of nasty effects on people controlling behavior , thought and optical nerves that can create hallucinations. Ever wonder why those guys that were so well hidden jumped up in the desert and gave up in the first Gulf Conflict--I doubt that was an Alpine stereo with Bob Dylon playing from those Apaches. LOL Did that cheer you up?| 7254|7253|2005-03-23 06:06:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: politics refreshing|Ultra low frequency is what causes sea or motion sickness. Regards, Ted| 7255|7255|2005-03-23 07:15:10|Gerald Niffenegger|Teak deck on top of steel?|This may have been discussed before but I have not once had any luck with the search function for this forum. If I wanted to install a teak deck on top of my steel deck, what would be the procedure? I only hope the procedure dose not include drilling holes in the steel because that is an automatic, no damn way, for me. Gerald| 7256|7255|2005-03-23 07:46:16|seeratlas|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Gerald, Yes you are correct, the subject has been addressed on several occasions, most strongly by Brent. Somewhere in the files section is a zip archive of the posts. If you download that, I believe most wp programs can search it. The bottom line on the discussion by Brent was DON"T DO IT!!!. Attaching wood to exterior steel is just generally a bad idea, pretty much guaranteed to cause corrosion. You might, however, consider some of the substitutes out there. I'm sure that where there's a will, there's a way :) As i've said before, if we can build a metal ship to reach Mars and beyond, there's probably a way to put a wood deck on a steel hull :) The principle problem is one of permanent adhesion given the vastly different expansion rates. I suppose that a thick/uniform layer of some kind of VERY flexible adhesive might get you thru for a while, but with wood basically you're semi-permanently attaching what amounts to a wet sponge to your steel....as soon as any gap whatsoever occurs whether caused by drying, cracking, UV degradation, impact, or just repeated expansion/contraction, then you have a perfect corrosion nursery, hidden from view. It would also add considerable weight. But if you want a wood deck, as I said, there's probably a way to do it, if you are determined to do so:) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > This may have been discussed before but I have not once had any luck > with the search function for this forum. > If I wanted to install a teak deck on top of my steel deck, what > would be the procedure? I only hope the procedure dose not include > drilling holes in the steel because that is an automatic, no damn > way, for me. > Gerald | 7257|7255|2005-03-23 07:52:54|dreemer1962|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Gerald, I saw many boats like that. Wood on steel causes all sorts of maintenance problems. Water will find way between the two and rot the wood and corrode the steel. If you still decide that you really need the teak, you should consider making plywood deck and gluing thin teak on top of that. That way, you will be rewarded with considerable weight savings and lower center of gravity for all that additional hassle. You would need more closely spaced deck beams, stringers and maybe some diagonal elements to achieve sufficient strength though. Connection of the deck edges to the hull would always need special attention. In the long run, all -steel boat will be much easier, (less work, time and money), to keep good looking. In the longer run chances are high that boat with a more demanding upkeep will be neglected and then look worse then simpler boats. Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > This may have been discussed before but I have not once had any luck > with the search function for this forum. > If I wanted to install a teak deck on top of my steel deck, what > would be the procedure? I only hope the procedure dose not include > drilling holes in the steel because that is an automatic, no damn > way, for me. > Gerald | 7258|7255|2005-03-23 07:59:35|Gerd|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Gerald, I have contacted WEST systems and they are confident that a complete set of WEST products on bare steel (sandblasted) will work, including black graphite-epoxy for the seams. No fittings, holes screws etc, just bedded down into the poxy with weights... Now, will that work? for how long? is it worth it? Don't know, but I have to admit I too would love to have a teak deck. Just glued.... ? but then, if we would be aware how many bits and pieces on cars and airplanes are simply glued, we would probably prefer walking for the rest of out lives ;-) Another neat solution I have seen on a German boat was a teak deck that was distant from the deck by about 5 mm, fixed with small threaded rods that were welded to the deck. Now this was not a full teack deck, but it had 3mm spaces between the planks, were the black seams would be, water washed simply trough and under it. I spoke with the owner, he was quite happy with that. From a distance of a few meters you would not see the difference. I thought that was very good, all the advantages of a teak deck but no water trapped, you can take if off if you have to, it's just a grid laid out on top. Another version was a teak deck laid on ply panels (all epoxied) that I saw on a Josua many years ago. In that case they had mounted the steel beams (flatirons) on the _outside_ meaning the inside deck was completely flush steel, and the big panels of ply and teak were fixed to the ouside beams, at a distance of about 50 mm to the steel. That was a pain really, because the space was big enough to let all sorts of junk get under it, and now way to get it out again... Finally, fake teak: I just heard from somebody that he was glueing fake teak beams made out of some plastic, direktly onto am alloy deck. Don't know what he used, but it's something like tek-dek http://www.tek-dek.co.uk/. There is another one, called sea-cork, an article at http://uaif.free.fr/technique/technique.php?page=seacork, in french I am afraid but you should be able to google for that stuff. The guy with he alloy boat seems to be very impressed with the process and the quality of the material, but finds that placing these parellel lines on the deck will actually make all heat- deformations MORE visible than just painting it ;-) OK, if you find other ways, let us know... Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > This may have been discussed before but I have not once had any luck > with the search function for this forum. > If I wanted to install a teak deck on top of my steel deck, what > would be the procedure? I only hope the procedure dose not include > drilling holes in the steel because that is an automatic, no damn > way, for me. > Gerald | 7260|7253|2005-03-23 09:02:38|Sugar|Re: politics refreshing|It cheered me up! I liked all the things you had to say. Isn't it amazing the way that some people express things? One of the sentences you said really stood out...."I am going to build a boat and enjoy the odd bottle of Chianti with my wife and paint sunsets" and I found myself taking a deep breath, I could feel the wind in my face, the sun, the colors of the sky, the smells, the calmness of life. THANKS ! You made my day! I'm going to work now. SeerAtlasAngel (this is not my friend Seer - this is Sugar) LOL --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > For what its worth, I have found the political comments very thought > provoking being that most of our news tends to be scewed in one > direction or another and lacking the same frankness and freedom of > thought. Thank you its stimulated my intellect even if it doesn't > make my boatbuilding any better. > > For what its worth, no one needs to be at all worried about missile > defence etc. National Geographic in a ten year old magazine said > that the world could only feed XX amount of people which we > surpassed roughly 7 or 8 years ago and has multiplied greatly since > then. There had been another program I once viewed with the world > science council recognizing that a "cull" of the populous will be > necessary at some point to sustain human civilization. That's > nature so what are you going to do about it? I am going to build a > boat and enjoy the odd bottle of Chianti with my wife and paint > sunsets. > > P.S. For those into electronics, Ultra low frequencies modulated at > somewhere between 7-9 HZ create all kind of nasty effects on people > controlling behavior , thought and optical nerves that can create > hallucinations. Ever wonder why those guys that were so well hidden > jumped up in the desert and gave up in the first Gulf Conflict--I > doubt that was an Alpine stereo with Bob Dylon playing from those > Apaches. > > LOL Did that cheer you up? | 7261|7255|2005-03-23 10:01:22|goho20022|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Gerald and Gerd, I had this faked plastik teak in my hands. I could not see or feel a difference to real teak (at the surface, of course). I didn´t believe this before! There are two products wich are actually the same: flexiteek and tek-deck. I saw this cork-thing as well. The Name is Marinedeck 2000. It doesn´t look like teak, at least not from short distances. But it looks ok and is supposed to be the one with better porperties - especially for steel - than teak or plastik. Gordon| 7262|7262|2005-03-23 10:14:20|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Group Archive|Folks, Like many of you I've been frustrated by the poor search facilities provided by Yahoo. It's a shame that the information in ~7200 messages posted here in the past is inaccessible because the search engine is basically useless as an information source (it's a good advertisement source though. =^) So I decided to knock together a proper search for it. You can use it too if you like: http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Regards, Hoop| 7264|7262|2005-03-23 10:17:38|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Origamiboats Group Archive|Hoop! Great job! I tried it and it works perfectly! rgds/Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: khooper_fboats [mailto:bighouse@...] Skickat: den 23 mars 2005 16:14 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Origamiboats Group Archive Folks, Like many of you I've been frustrated by the poor search facilities provided by Yahoo. It's a shame that the information in ~7200 messages posted here in the past is inaccessible because the search engine is basically useless as an information source (it's a good advertisement source though. =^) So I decided to knock together a proper search for it. You can use it too if you like: http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Regards, Hoop To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7265|7265|2005-03-23 12:00:06|seeratlas|Re: Last word from me|Sorry Mike, when you've been in the reality business as long as I have, you get used to being around people with whom you can say exactly what you think. People with fragile sensibilities, tender ego's, and a paucity of intellectual and/or factual ammunition tend to pack it in early- which in that line of work is a good thing as people have lived or died as a consquence of decisions made upon the analysis and recommendations offered by various groups of which I've been a member. As someone long ago once told me, 'your first job is to understand why it is you think the way YOU do, after that you can worry about trying to figure out why they think the way THEY do..' In the end tho, I think almost everyone seconds the chianti, wife and sunset scenario :) If you take it too seriously, life will kill you. seer| 7266|7255|2005-03-23 12:07:51|Alex Christie|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|For anyone living in a climate which may have below-freezing temperatures in winter, there will remain the likely possibility of moisture finding its way behind the wood, then freezing and completing the delamination which began already with the different rates of expansion of the two materials. Except for places like the boom crutch, where the wood is not bonded to the steel rack (just a bolt), I think wood on steel is an unholy marriage. A fake teak material would still have a different rate of expansion than steel as well, so I don't think you'd be much better off, plus there'd be the fact that you can't see what is going on under there. The only good thing is that there'd be less of a sponge effect (though don't some plastics absorb water too?). I guess with aluminum this might not be such a big issue, but the effects of freezing water behind a slightly delaminated panel will still be the same. All it needs is an edge to start with and away it goes. Alex > > > This may have been discussed before but I have not once had any luck > with the search function for this forum. > If I wanted to install a teak deck on top of my steel deck, what > would be the procedure? I only hope the procedure dose not include > drilling holes in the steel because that is an automatic, no damn > way, for me. > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7267|7255|2005-03-23 12:45:43|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|After working with flame spray zinc I cannot imagine anyone building a steel boat and not using flame sprayed zinc. I wonder how long it would take corrosion to take a toll if wood were glued ..... expoxied ...... screwed ..... etc. to the zinc base? I have a boat that is 37 years old with a perfect teak deck. It can breath on both sides of the teak and that might be the reason it is in perfect shape? I was just wondering how the big boys fasten the wood deck to a steel surface. If not a complete deck, I need to at least find a way to fasten wood to the seats in the cockpit. The sun in the Amazon area will blister your ass in a matter of seconds. Gerald| 7268|7265|2005-03-23 13:16:45|seeratlas|Re: Last word from me|"As an X Kiwi I have heard all the sheep jokes. Let me know when you think the US with its 300 plus million folks can put together a rugby team to beat the All Blacks. I am in almost daily contact with my redneck tractor buddies from the US via a chat line and none of them fortunately go on in the manner that you have. Your boating comments have been worth reading." > Mikhail you take offense where none is meant. My statement was not a 'sheep joke', just another statement of fact. Last time I was down under, the sheep outnumbered the humans in at least the two digit multiples if I remember correctly. As for 'redneck tractor buddies,' I would have to agree that very few would be likely to speak from the same data and experience reference base that dictates why I think the way I do. And, Seein as how I'm writing this from the top of my mountain, in the backwoods of the Ozarks in North Central Arkansas, (where most families have more tractors than automobiles) I can say with some surety that you are correct. None of MY redneck tractor buddies that I know 'go on in the manner' I do either. They each have their own story, their own history, their own reason for seeing the world in the way they do, and they ain't afraid to talk about it. One of the reasons I like it here:) You mouth off and disrespect someone's woman? Someon knocks you up side of the head. On the other hand, everyone around here waves as they pass, whether they know you or not. Real culture shock, especially the 'dry county' thing but that's another story LOL. The kiwi's are some of my favorite people. Straight talk, incredible chocolate, mountains, rivers and beer to die for, white pointers :) the most intelligent dogs on the planet, and car eating parrots. What more could a man ask for? LOL. As for the rugby crowd, I'll leave that to the brits, you guys and the aussies: 'football' without pads between men of that size and speed invokes another reference endemic to you commonwealth types:) something along the lines of 'only mad dogs and englishmen'... heheheh. (btw, you ARE aware that the Kiwi and aussie governments, and industries for that matter, are FULL 'partners' in every sense of the word in by far the most critical of american sponsored security systems, not to mention the impending missle defense shield apparatus.) lastly thanks for the comment on my boat related postings. I have been both party to, and witness to events and mistakes which if only one person avoids replicating by reading anything I've written, then the effort on my part has been more than repaid many many times over. With all its serenity, beauty and wonder, sailing the waters of this world can still be a life threatening enterprise. It has been my experience that life is a far easier thing to take, than to restore. seer| 7269|7255|2005-03-23 13:16:54|seeratlas|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Gerald, I once saw an aluminum yacht headed to the tropics where the owner had fabricated teak grids for the cockpit floor, seats and backs. They were removable for cleaning etc. and I think were fixxed in place with the simple expedient of what looked like recessed wingnuts on bolts welded to the deck. They had channels cut in the bottom of the seats and cockpit floor grates which permitted accumulated water to run out from under them. Altogether a very satisfactory solution, tho I have to tell you, I've sat my bottom down on some wooden seats that were only slightly less scalding than metal would've been. That sun you have down there is indeed ferocious. My own solution was to have reversible cushions. Turned one way until you got ready to use them then reversed so the 'cool' side was up :) heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > > After working with flame spray zinc I cannot imagine anyone building > a steel boat and not using flame sprayed zinc. I wonder how long it > would take corrosion to take a toll if wood were glued ..... > expoxied ...... screwed ..... etc. to the zinc base? I have a boat > that is 37 years old with a perfect teak deck. It can breath on both > sides of the teak and that might be the reason it is in perfect shape? > I was just wondering how the big boys fasten the wood deck to a steel > surface. If not a complete deck, I need to at least find a way to > fasten wood to the seats in the cockpit. The sun in the Amazon area > will blister your ass in a matter of seconds. > Gerald | 7270|7219|2005-03-23 13:17:35|put_to_sea|Re: full keel on origami boat|> I bent the leading edge pipe on the skeg on my BS36 to give it a > smooth run in to the hull. I have uploaded a photo of it in > Origamiboat 2 under Ted & Fiona's Boat Bits. Thanks for pointing out your pictures at Origamiboat 2. I haven't been over there for a while and hadn't seen it. That curved leading edge sure looks sharp. Did you have trouble getting the plate to lay fair across the curved area? Amos| 7271|7255|2005-03-23 13:17:40|dreemer1962|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|"… I need to at least find a way to fasten wood to the seats in the cockpit…" Weld a few pices of stainles with a hole and screw wood to it. Milan| 7272|7272|2005-03-23 14:18:34|Russyl|Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|I just got an estimate to spray my 36 footer with foam. It was 2800 and change. Now being the scrounger that I am I dont know if I can pay that amount for something that seems like a no brainer job. Is this an average price? Anyone who knows of a good cheap installer in the Seattle area please pipe up and save me some hassle:)| 7273|7272|2005-03-23 16:07:34|khooper_fboats|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|I've been pondering the foam too. It occured to me that it might do to put the foam in as you install the paneling using pour-in foam instead of having somebody spray it. With a 6-mil plastic barrier behind the paneling so you can get the paneling off again. There's a guy on eBay who sells a pair of 5-gallon buckets of pour-in two part foam for ~$200 and says it's 40 cubic feet expanded. I wonder if you couldn't do a 40-footer with four of those kits, two dixie-cups full at a time. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" wrote: > > > I just got an estimate to spray my 36 footer with foam. It was 2800 > and change. > Now being the scrounger that I am I dont know if I can pay that > amount for something that seems like a no brainer job. Is this an > average price? Anyone who knows of a good cheap installer in the > Seattle area please pipe up and save me some hassle:) | 7274|7265|2005-03-23 16:08:19|Gary|Re: Last word from me|Hmmmm, do I or don't I persue response to Seer over this issue which has even divided the nation of its origin. Well, I did send a private email to Alex apologizing and I will not get into it as the debate rages on more appropriately elsewhere. Final word from me too. Boating it is. Jericoera: As for "enjoy the odd bottle of Chianti with my wife and paint sunsets". Along with you I will hope for views of sunsets unaltered to the stars, free of orbiting armed satellites which for me would be the earth in chains and the final defeat of the human spirit unable even to look skyward to solace of the gods. Gary| 7275|7272|2005-03-23 18:30:33|Alex Christie|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|$2800 (CDN, or US?) seems steep to me. I am going to enquire locally and see what my 36 footer would cost to do. I'll let you all know what I find. Alex > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" > wrote: >> >> >> I just got an estimate to spray my 36 footer with foam. It was 2800 >> and change. >> Now being the scrounger that I am I dont know if I can pay that >> amount for something that seems like a no brainer job. Is this an >> average price? Anyone who knows of a good cheap installer in the >> Seattle area please pipe up and save me some hassle:) > > > > | 7276|7272|2005-03-23 18:31:13|seeratlas|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|I havn't done the foam on steel thing yet, but last summer my brother and I rebuilt a small fishing boat using the pour in type foams. The two major problems i would see involve, first the matter of containing the still liquid foam where you want it on anything other than a horizontal surface, and second, containing the expanding foam where you want it. The power of this stuff when it expands is substantial, I would guess unless it had lots of space to flow out of it will lift any paneling you try to put over it. We had to hurriedly cut a bunch more holes in the floor so that it could expand up. I think Brent once remarked that either he or someone he knew tried to do it by hand and the conclusion was that its not worth it. Shop around get the best deal you can get from a reputable guy, and make sure you check the agreed upon foam depth BEFORE you let him leave :) Have you done the calcs to figure out how much you need to cover the interior of a 40 footer? How many of those 5gal combo's would you need? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I've been pondering the foam too. It occured to me that it might do to > put the foam in as you install the paneling using pour-in foam instead > of having somebody spray it. With a 6-mil plastic barrier behind the > paneling so you can get the paneling off again. > > There's a guy on eBay who sells a pair of 5-gallon buckets of pour-in > two part foam for ~$200 and says it's 40 cubic feet expanded. I wonder > if you couldn't do a 40-footer with four of those kits, two dixie-cups > full at a time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" > wrote: > > > > > > I just got an estimate to spray my 36 footer with foam. It was 2800 > > and change. > > Now being the scrounger that I am I dont know if I can pay that > > amount for something that seems like a no brainer job. Is this an > > average price? Anyone who knows of a good cheap installer in the > > Seattle area please pipe up and save me some hassle:) | 7277|7272|2005-03-23 18:31:19|kingsknight4life|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|I think that sounds high. I think 1500-2000 CDN sounds more in the ballpark you should be looking. Rowland| 7278|7219|2005-03-23 18:31:38|edward_stoneuk|Re: full keel on origami boat|Amos, It doesn't quite lie fair as you have guessed. I wedged it out with a M20 (3/4") bolt, undoing it to jack the sides apart and using a bit of heat. It is hardly noticable. Regards, Ted| 7279|7272|2005-03-23 19:20:09|kendall|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > I havn't done the foam on steel thing yet, but last summer my brother > and I rebuilt a small fishing boat using the pour in type foams. The > two major problems i would see involve, first the matter of containing > the still liquid foam where you want it on anything other than a > horizontal surface, and second, containing the expanding foam where > you want it. The power of this stuff when it expands is substantial, Tell me about it, a friend and his wife decided to seal some air leaks in thier house, they pulled off the casing around the doors and windows, and filled the gaps with canned expanding foam, called me up the next morning because they couldn't get the doors open and had to climb out the basement window. I've never used the two part foam, but I've always understood that it was porous and held water, does it? I was going to redo the floatation on my sailing dink (it was getting pretty stern heavy) and when I looked into foam, I was told by a salesman that it wouldn't work on a bout because it held water. ended up using styrofoam carved to shape. ken.| 7280|7272|2005-03-23 19:40:12|Michael Casling|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|The bluish insulation foam that comes in 8 X 2 foot sheets, one or two inches thick will float for months with a weight holding it down in the water. I tested a piece, it did take on a minor amount of water. It is a bit exspensive though for a bigger boat, my 7400 pound boat would require a block about 5 X 5 X 5 and cost about $700-. I am now collecting milk and water jugs for the funny shaped areas and foam for the rectangle areas. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kendall To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 4:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > I havn't done the foam on steel thing yet, but last summer my brother > and I rebuilt a small fishing boat using the pour in type foams. The > two major problems i would see involve, first the matter of containing > the still liquid foam where you want it on anything other than a > horizontal surface, and second, containing the expanding foam where > you want it. The power of this stuff when it expands is substantial, Tell me about it, a friend and his wife decided to seal some air leaks in thier house, they pulled off the casing around the doors and windows, and filled the gaps with canned expanding foam, called me up the next morning because they couldn't get the doors open and had to climb out the basement window. I've never used the two part foam, but I've always understood that it was porous and held water, does it? I was going to redo the floatation on my sailing dink (it was getting pretty stern heavy) and when I looked into foam, I was told by a salesman that it wouldn't work on a bout because it held water. ended up using styrofoam carved to shape. ken. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7281|7272|2005-03-23 19:47:28|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|I did some tests with two part foam and ended up using it as a glue to bind foam sheets to the steel. I mixed the two part and spread it thin as possible on the sheet foam. I secured the foam sheet in placed and when the two part set up it was impossible to remove the foam sheet. I am not sure what I will do when it is foam time but using two part as a glue is one of my options. I have often wondered how much it would cost and how difficult it would be to just buy spray cans and spray the stuff in behind a temporary wall? Gerald| 7282|7272|2005-03-23 21:00:00|Gary|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|Alex... from Isul Pro in Nanaimo... $1300 I recollect. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > $2800 (CDN, or US?) seems steep to me. I am going to enquire locally > and see what my 36 footer would cost to do. I'll let you all know what > I find. > > Alex > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> I just got an estimate to spray my 36 footer with foam. It was 2800 > >> and change. > >> Now being the scrounger that I am I dont know if I can pay that > >> amount for something that seems like a no brainer job. Is this an > >> average price? Anyone who knows of a good cheap installer in the > >> Seattle area please pipe up and save me some hassle:) > > > > > > > > | 7283|7272|2005-03-23 21:22:07|khooper_fboats|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Have you done the calcs to figure out how much you need to cover the > interior of a 40 footer? How many of those 5gal combo's would you need? No, playing around without exact dimensions I expect it's something like 800-900 square feet of coverage. I could be wrong. Assuming two inches average thickness that'd be perhaps 1800 board feet = 150 cubic feet = four of the $200 kits. I've read that 90% of the insulation value is in the first inch of foam, after that the value is negligible except in very extreme environments. It may not be easy to figure out how to keep from filling lots of dead space in the boat with expensive foam for no particular purpose if you're pouring it in. Another alternative might be to just buy the spray foam equipment, spray the boat, then unload the equipment again. Spraying foam seems to be the sort of business people get into for a few thousand dollars and then bail out of when they don't make much money in the first few months. There seem to be lots of used rigs out there if you tickle Google a little. --Hoop| 7284|7272|2005-03-23 23:45:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|The two part foam is over 90% closed cell but you can paint or even fiberglass over it to get a total seal. The stuf in the cans for homes comes in different weights of ridgedness the more ridged the harder a force it will aply. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > I havn't done the foam on steel thing yet, but last summer my brother > > and I rebuilt a small fishing boat using the pour in type foams. The > > two major problems i would see involve, first the matter of containing > > the still liquid foam where you want it on anything other than a > > horizontal surface, and second, containing the expanding foam where > > you want it. The power of this stuff when it expands is substantial, > > Tell me about it, a friend and his wife decided to seal some air > leaks in thier house, they pulled off the casing around the doors and > windows, and filled the gaps with canned expanding foam, called me up > the next morning because they couldn't get the doors open and had to > climb out the basement window. > > I've never used the two part foam, but I've always understood that > it was porous and held water, does it? I was going to redo the > floatation on my sailing dink (it was getting pretty stern heavy) and > when I looked into foam, I was told by a salesman that it wouldn't > work on a bout because it held water. ended up using styrofoam carved > to shape. > > ken. | 7285|7272|2005-03-24 00:00:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|Spray is the way to go it can be applyed where needed trimed and get all the spaces. A void will sweet and eventualy rust where a good cover will seal out air and condensation even the cabin top and under deck. The spray foam is being used in more and more homes in my area but the price is everywhere so shop around for insalation spray fome contractors even for the residental ones. Hear they are spraying about 3' in a 6' wall and 4-5' on under side of roof sheating so they end upwith a attic at the same temp as the house and good climet controled storage. I wounder if it will cause drirot in the long run. Jon| 7286|7272|2005-03-24 01:22:46|Russyl|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > I think that sounds high. I think 1500-2000 CDN sounds more in the > ballpark you should be looking. > Rowland Yeah, This is in USD so I think I better shop around. Could still use some reputable sources in or around Seattle though. Thanks in advance| 7287|7272|2005-03-24 02:10:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|When I travel from Vancouver Wa to Seattle there is a spray foam outfit right on I-5 I pass. I can't recall exactly where but it seems it is one of the small off ramps around Centralia. Don't know what the name is eather but they have a sign sprayed on the building out of spray foam saying such and a monster made of it. On east side of freeway. Need a sunday drive??? Jon > > Yeah, This is in USD so I think I better shop around. > > Could still use some reputable sources in or around Seattle though. > Thanks in advance | 7288|7272|2005-03-24 13:50:26|servo_bot|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|Here's a do-it-yourself kit, but I'm not if it would save any money in a 36 foot boat. http://www.fomofoam.com/boat_ship_and_pontoon.htm The product description is a bit confusing. The description seems to restrict use to pouring applications, such as pontoon boats, but the pricing and ordering section says: The 600 & 605 kits come with 8 nozzle tips. 4 cone and 4 fan spray pattern tips. You have the option to purchase additional tips in the shopping cart. We include enough for most applications unless you plan to stop and start a lot. The smaller kits come with 4 tips. Again, 2 cone and 2 fan spray tips. Sounds to me like these could be used to spray the foam in place. In thin applications, it sounds like this stuff would set up quick enough (60 to 90 seconds to tack-free). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > I did some tests with two part foam and ended up using it as a glue > to bind foam sheets to the steel. I mixed the two part and spread it > thin as possible on the sheet foam. I secured the foam sheet in > placed and when the two part set up it was impossible to remove the > foam sheet. I am not sure what I will do when it is foam time but > using two part as a glue is one of my options. > I have often wondered how much it would cost and how difficult it > would be to just buy spray cans and spray the stuff in behind a > temporary wall? > Gerald | 7289|7210|2005-03-24 16:01:13|brentswain38|Re: Building Sequence|The US deficit was made by huge military non productive spending by a guy in the arms industry ,who's family fortune was made selling weapons to Hitler. Our Prime minister , in rejecting the foolishness of missile defence , is doing what his employers, us Canadians ,want done. He's is doing what he's paid to do. As the world steel production catches up with China's demands , perhsaps steel price rises will slow. I've heard that steel producing nations are worried that when China's steel production eventually surpasses it's own need, they will flood the world market with cheap Chinese steel, forcing the price down. It's anybody's guess when that will happen. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > We'll just have to see who's right won't we. Time will tell:) > As for Beef etc. Just so you know, Bush represented he "would support > it". Your PM presented the missle agreement as a "done deal". I > believe one of your own political observers recently remarked that the > incident has essentially rendered the PM 'irrelevant'. I would not go > that far. After all there were some of us who counseled correctly. > One thing more and more americans have learned over recent years, you > can't always believe what you read in the papers..or the financial > times for that matter. A more accurate statement would have been > "China is SAYING that it is putting the breaks on its economy." > > I have a different take on the US deficit. To vastly simplify things, > the American consumer is subsidizing the development of the rest of > the world. The deficit is a wealth transfer. If the Americans decide > to stop spending and start saving, unless the major economic powers > pick up the slack quickly by firing up their own economies, they have > some real trouble coming. Unfortunately, Germany, France, etc. seem to > have no stomach for this. Look at those unemployment numbers. Most > likely winner here seems to be the UK. China does not yet have the > capacity to absorb all of this alone. Unless they make some changes > quickly...well, these are dangerous times. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > If you stay abreast of the financial times you will know that China > is putting the breaks on its economy, they are well aware that their > economy is too strong. The US now buys more goods from China than > Japan, this helps China's economy. The US has a $400 billion a year > trade deficit that is unsustainable, so is their current deficit and > the future of the social security system. I am quoting Mr Greenspan on > the last two. I am not pointing fingers or blame just stating what is > in the finanacial news. A few years ago Canada had unsustainable > deficits and other problems. The resource sector will probably be > strong for about ten years so the prices are not likely to go down > soon. It may pain to buy steel at todays prices but they will likely > be just as high or higher tomorrow. We had the same scenario when we > built our house in 1992, the price of wood was going up about $1000- > per month. To match the political statement on flip flop check out the > US position on cows and wood crossing the US border. In Vancouver we > unload beef from Hawaii bound for the mainland US. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:28 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building Sequence > > > > > > > > -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) > > > > Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle > > defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) > > > > btw, I am total agreement with what you've written, and if it makes > > you feel any better..I'm supposed to know something about this:) > > > > seer < former member of the East Asian Strategic Studies Center (us gov > > "think" tank..), and last general counsel to the US 'Liason" officer > > to Taiwan (what replaced our 'Ambassador after Nixon's normalization > > with the Reds). > > > > I gotta tell you. To see someone north of the border write something > > like this just makes my day. :) You'd be amazed how many of the > > "intelligenzia" are incapable of connecting the dots you have so > > succinctly mapped out. > > > > One of my mentors recently passed away. One of the last things he said > > to me was that the 21st century posed far greater dangers than all of > > the wars of the 20th put together. He was not only 'supposed' to know > > something about such things, he DID know something about them. > > > > Now, to tie this back to the subject of this group. Current thought is > > that China is going to have to do something soon to throw some cold > > water on their expansion rate or risk a severe recession if not > > depression. Floating the yen, raising interest rates, the horrific > > rise in the price of crude oil, and cutting back govt construction > > 'should' bring some of the commodity prices back down a bit by later > > this year. With any luck, steel will be one of them. > > > > > very satisfying and confidence-inspiring. > > > > > > China buying up all the steel on the planet (if they could buy > > steel > > > from another planet they'd buy that too) has been very hard on > > steel > > > prices. They are buying steel and building subs and ships and > > other > > > armaments so fast that I wonder if it may already match or surpass > > the > > > build-up Nazi Germany's build-up before ww 2. China is fulfilling > > a > > > long-held promise to itself to be the most dominant power on Earth. > > > > > Scary politics aside, it is still cheaper to buy this inflated > > steel > > > and build a boat yourself than it is to buy a new boat off the > > shelf, > > > or even a used one, for that matter. And put some of that saved > > money > > > into Chinese language lessons -- if our leaders keep ignoring > > China's > > > militarization you may need the skill to serve your new masters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7290|7219|2005-03-24 16:03:34|brentswain38|Re: full keel on origami boat|A full keel puts an extra 300 pounds in the stern of the boat, where you need it least. It also makes an inaccessible void under the engine where it's nearly impossible to get at without removing the engine. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Don't forget there is a gusset which attaches to the leading edge of > the skeg, reducing the slope by quite a bit where it meets the hull, so > this may have already answered your needs. > > Alex > > > On 21-Mar-05, at 10:50 PM, put_to_sea wrote: > > > > > > >> A good slope to the front of the skeg does the same job. > >> Brent > >> > > > > Brent, > > > > How much slope would be too much. The 36 plans show a pretty steep > > slope and I had thought of making the leading edge less vertical for > > the same reason (less likely to snag). > > > > Thanks - Amos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7291|7242|2005-03-24 16:04:41|brentswain38|Re: Skeg cooling water expansion|I just use a push on plastic cap on the header tank. No problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Good Day everyone. > Any info on the following would be appreciated. What allowances are > necessary for the expansion of the coolant? Is it necessary to put > airbleeds in the high points of the system to prevent air locks? > Regards, > Ted | 7292|7210|2005-03-24 16:12:37|brentswain38|Re: Building Sequence|How do your personal odds of being killed by a foreign nuke compare with your odds of dying from lack of funding for health care . How is diverting billions from health care to deal with extremely tiny odds of a nuke attack and extremely remote chances of a missile defence system actually working going to make us safe from far greater liabilities, like health proiblems . Those in the US forced into homelessnes are far less secure than they would be if the US spent the same amount of money on taking care of people's health. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Whoa Gary LOL, > lets see, was the 'jingoistic' comment Alex's? or mine agreeing with > him? If I remember my Funk & Wagnalls...I'm not so sure the definition > of that term applies to either one, got a nice ring to it tho LOL. > A wise man once said, 'every country has an army, either theirs, > or someone else's. > Giving the current starvation funding levels up north leads one to > wonder just whose army is desired. > As for the biological warfare references, don't you find it > interesting that the two most virulent outbreaks of your bird flu have > occurred in the two countries thought to have the most vigorous > biological warfare research programs amongst the asian nations? > > Lastly regarding Eisenhower's comments, yes a wise man. Did you know > that Khrushchev (russki spelling) expressed the same sentiment from > his side? Of course, such sentiment must be tempered with the > understanding that it was technology that defeated the Germans, the > Japanese, and pretty much determined the resolution of every armed > conflict in history, excepting perhaps the Spartan's heroic defense of > the pass at Thermopylae where it was a combination of better > technology (the spartan long spear, heavy armor, and large shields), > superior tactics (the phalanx) and strategy (the inspired choice of > the narrowest portion of the pass just infront of the defensive wall) > which combined with the very nature of the spartans themselves > resulted in some 300 odd Greeks killing approximately 20,000 Persians. > To be fair it should be noted that the Spartans did have some allies > with them but the classic version of the battle made for a better film :) > > Now as for the "b.s." reference, I'm assuming you don't mean Bachelors > of Science. I guess I can also rule out a reference to the extended > ban on Canadian beef imports, tho the relevance seems closer to the > mark there.. > Now, since Alex's position vis a vis the intentions of the Chinese > appears to be one held by only a tiny fraction of your countrymen, I > think the tongue in cheek illustration of that fact by my expressed > surprise at his pronouncement does not constitute 'b.s.' by any > stretch of the imagination. As for the second statement, that is > merely a recitation of fact, tho 'b.s.' could very well be used to > describe the events I was describing. > > A famous greek philosopher once observed that intelligence should be > measured not by who gets the right answer, but by who asks the right > questions. > > You open with "why missile defence in North America"...why indeed. > let me pose a query. Why Gary, do you think North Korea wants nuclear > armed long range ballistic missles? Why do you think China wants them? > Why do you think Tehran wants them? Why did Pakistan want them? Why > does Brazil want them? Argentina? Why do you think Japan HAS them? In > fact given the current state of United States Nuclear capability, and > its deployment, why in today's world would anyone want them? (you DO > know that Canada has them too don't you?) Just who do you think these > things are intended to be used against? > I'll give you a hint... > They don't call it the 'nuclear threat' for nothing. > > Whether anyone likes it or not, it appears the US is going to build an > umbrella. It will cover us, and those we consider genuine friends. > When the storm comes, those who wish to go stand in the rain are free > to do so. Your government apparently wants a head start. > > Lastly, on the threat posed by biowarfare agents, the problem is not > the killing of 'millions', its the killing of the 'right' millions. > The former is easy. The latter very difficult. Bio agents make much > better terror weaps than strategic ones. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) > > > > > > Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the missle > > > defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) > > > > Why missile defence in North America? The missiles are already > > here. 10.3 million illegal immigrants in US and 200-330k in > > Canada. Easier to assemble nukes here. Armaments are for brush > > fires and profits the latter of which Eisenhhower warned Americans > > of in 1962 famous farewell speach i.e., "acquisition of unwarranted > > influence, whether sought or unsought," by this military- industrial > > complex. Easier still would be for the release of a tiny quantity > > of super virus strains (1918 flu or new more virulent asian bird > > varieties)here. Millions of casualties for the price of a plane > > ticket. > > > > Apologies to origami site, I could not let such a jingoistic b.s. > > comment go unanswered. > > > > Gary | 7293|7255|2005-03-24 16:19:01|brentswain38|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Teak or any wood on top of steel is a huge mistake . It's like wet blotting paper . On older steel boats with wood trim, usually the only places drooling rust is where wood is on steel. No beding compound can keep wood, which is constantly expanding and contracting, attached to steel, which doesn't change it's dimensions much , indefinitly. Best to keep the dead vegitation off your decks and down below where it can be delt with once, then forgotten about, or in your garden or fridge. Spend your teak money on doing what the boat is for, cruising. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > This may have been discussed before but I have not once had any luck > with the search function for this forum. > If I wanted to install a teak deck on top of my steel deck, what > would be the procedure? I only hope the procedure dose not include > drilling holes in the steel because that is an automatic, no damn > way, for me. > Gerald | 7294|7210|2005-03-24 16:45:36|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Building Sequence|The key issue is that the system doesn't work, and has never worked in tests. It is unlikely to work if fielded even if it passed it's tests because it's a software intensive weapon and undoubtedly will suffer some failure in its first hot experience. "Some failure" being letting at least one nuke through. The Canuks got this one right. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building Sequence > > > How do your personal odds of being killed by a foreign nuke compare > with your odds of dying from lack of funding for health care . How is > diverting billions from health care to deal with extremely tiny odds > of a nuke attack and extremely remote chances of a missile defence > system actually working going to make us safe from far greater > liabilities, like health proiblems . > Those in the US forced into homelessnes are far less secure than > they would be if the US spent the same amount of money on taking care > of people's health. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Whoa Gary LOL, > > lets see, was the 'jingoistic' comment Alex's? or mine agreeing with > > him? If I remember my Funk & Wagnalls...I'm not so sure the > definition > > of that term applies to either one, got a nice ring to it tho LOL. > > A wise man once said, 'every country has an army, either theirs, > > or someone else's. > > Giving the current starvation funding levels up north leads one to > > wonder just whose army is desired. > > As for the biological warfare references, don't you find it > > interesting that the two most virulent outbreaks of your bird flu > have > > occurred in the two countries thought to have the most vigorous > > biological warfare research programs amongst the asian nations? > > > > Lastly regarding Eisenhower's comments, yes a wise man. Did you know > > that Khrushchev (russki spelling) expressed the same sentiment from > > his side? Of course, such sentiment must be tempered with the > > understanding that it was technology that defeated the Germans, the > > Japanese, and pretty much determined the resolution of every armed > > conflict in history, excepting perhaps the Spartan's heroic defense > of > > the pass at Thermopylae where it was a combination of better > > technology (the spartan long spear, heavy armor, and large shields), > > superior tactics (the phalanx) and strategy (the inspired choice of > > the narrowest portion of the pass just infront of the defensive > wall) > > which combined with the very nature of the spartans themselves > > resulted in some 300 odd Greeks killing approximately 20,000 > Persians. > > To be fair it should be noted that the Spartans did have some allies > > with them but the classic version of the battle made for a better > film :) > > > > Now as for the "b.s." reference, I'm assuming you don't mean > Bachelors > > of Science. I guess I can also rule out a reference to the extended > > ban on Canadian beef imports, tho the relevance seems closer to the > > mark there.. > > Now, since Alex's position vis a vis the intentions of the Chinese > > appears to be one held by only a tiny fraction of your countrymen, I > > think the tongue in cheek illustration of that fact by my expressed > > surprise at his pronouncement does not constitute 'b.s.' by any > > stretch of the imagination. As for the second statement, that is > > merely a recitation of fact, tho 'b.s.' could very well be used to > > describe the events I was describing. > > > > A famous greek philosopher once observed that intelligence should be > > measured not by who gets the right answer, but by who asks the right > > questions. > > > > You open with "why missile defence in North America"...why indeed. > > let me pose a query. Why Gary, do you think North Korea wants > nuclear > > armed long range ballistic missles? Why do you think China wants > them? > > Why do you think Tehran wants them? Why did Pakistan want them? Why > > does Brazil want them? Argentina? Why do you think Japan HAS them? > In > > fact given the current state of United States Nuclear capability, > and > > its deployment, why in today's world would anyone want them? (you > DO > > know that Canada has them too don't you?) Just who do you think > these > > things are intended to be used against? > > I'll give you a hint... > > They don't call it the 'nuclear threat' for nothing. > > > > Whether anyone likes it or not, it appears the US is going to build > an > > umbrella. It will cover us, and those we consider genuine friends. > > When the storm comes, those who wish to go stand in the rain are > free > > to do so. Your government apparently wants a head start. > > > > Lastly, on the threat posed by biowarfare agents, the problem is not > > the killing of 'millions', its the killing of the 'right' millions. > > The former is easy. The latter very difficult. Bio agents make much > > better terror weaps than strategic ones. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > -WHOA!!!!, Alex? are you sure you're a Canadian? :) > > > > > > > > Didn't your govt. just vote to not coop with the US on the > missle > > > > defense initiative, AFTER your PM committed that they would? :) > > > > > > Why missile defence in North America? The missiles are already > > > here. 10.3 million illegal immigrants in US and 200-330k in > > > Canada. Easier to assemble nukes here. Armaments are for brush > > > fires and profits the latter of which Eisenhhower warned > Americans > > > of in 1962 famous farewell speach i.e., "acquisition of > unwarranted > > > influence, whether sought or unsought," by this military- > industrial > > > complex. Easier still would be for the release of a tiny > quantity > > > of super virus strains (1918 flu or new more virulent asian bird > > > varieties)here. Millions of casualties for the price of a plane > > > ticket. > > > > > > Apologies to origami site, I could not let such a jingoistic > b.s. > > > comment go unanswered. > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/05 > > | 7295|7210|2005-03-24 22:43:40|Lipsey|Re: Building Sequence|Hi Brent, I bought your book (2 copies actually) about 3-4 years ago. I plan on buying plans for the 36 in the next six months. My first time to post here. I've been reading the archived messages and new posts since I discovered this group a few months ago. Fist a question then a comment. Do you, would you consider, traveling to help amateur builders for 1-2 weeks, until the hull is tacked together (for room, board, and wages)? If that is the case, I'd like to invite you to help me here in Nashville, TN, in about 24 months time, at which point I should be in position to start construction. I've built 5 plywood boats, and have some experience in metal fabrication, but would be willing to hire you for the sake of expediancy and sage knowledge. Now the comment.(Sorry Alex, I'll only do it this one time) As concerns the politics of your postings, you are, as they say down here, "preaching to the choir"! Please remember that almost 1/2 of this country is at odds with what is taking place and the direction we're headed. FDR said "The only thing to fear is fear itself". GWB says "be afraid, be very afraid!", and Carl Rove is a master at manipulting the herd. A bumper sticker I saw sums it up nicely: "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention." Thanks for your consideration. David Lipsey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7296|7272|2005-03-24 22:43:49|jericoera|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|While I am no boat expert, I would check out the vapor barrier idea before you do it. Even the smallest amount of moisture will be trapped and as it can't get out, i would have to expect it would corode your interior portion of your hull. The more a boat breathes i think the better-please correct me if I am wrong in that train of thought. As for the $2800, yes its a bit of an outlay, but if you are planning to keep the boat for a good while and the foam keeps you warm in winter and cool in summer, maybe it is worth it. I myself would not be laying in the foam panels as I am too paranoid about moisture creeping in behind. I'll look around too as i also wondered about the foam situation. You may be able to rent the sprayer and do it yourself for a fraction of the cost. Carl McIntosh shakeena@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I've been pondering the foam too. It occured to me that it might do to > put the foam in as you install the paneling using pour-in foam instead > of having somebody spray it. With a 6-mil plastic barrier behind the > paneling so you can get the paneling off again. > > There's a guy on eBay who sells a pair of 5-gallon buckets of pour- in > two part foam for ~$200 and says it's 40 cubic feet expanded. I wonder > if you couldn't do a 40-footer with four of those kits, two dixie- cups > full at a time. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" > wrote: > > > > > > I just got an estimate to spray my 36 footer with foam. It was 2800 > > and change. > > Now being the scrounger that I am I dont know if I can pay that > > amount for something that seems like a no brainer job. Is this an > > average price? Anyone who knows of a good cheap installer in the > > Seattle area please pipe up and save me some hassle:) | 7297|7297|2005-03-24 22:46:14|Phil S.|No More Politics|OK, I have heard enough... Please no more politics, if I wanted that garbage I would go to a message board. Now, as far as the wood on metal issue goes, I have to agree with Brent. It is a huge mistake, while trendy, yachty and all that other jazz it will end up being a maint. nightmare. Nick designer of the Wylo II does a paint and crushed cork concoction on his deck, I will have to go back and find the exact post but it works something like Prime, Heavy coat of paint, cover with crushed cork, let it dry, sand cork till thin, paint again with a rubbery paint. Says it makes for a nice bearfoot footing on the deck and is cooler in the sun than just straigth painted steel. I think someone could figure it out on their own though. Still hoping to join the doer ranks soon. Regards Phil| 7298|7272|2005-03-24 23:11:25|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|Talked to a contractor doing spray foam in a home today at work and this is what he said. 1. they use 1/2 oz. per quibic.ft. foam on homes and 2oz. to 4oz.for boats. 2. they have so many large jobs they up the price on small if they don't want to do something they make so little on. 3. they do large boats (cammercal) 4. have to drain and flush system to change to higher density foam and then again to change back. 5. they also have a pat. bedliner type material they spray over foam for sealing it for things like large fish tankers used by fish and fildlife. 6. if the boat is trailered to there shop it can save on some jobs. Hope that helps shop around Jon| 7299|7299|2005-03-24 23:51:22|jericoera|A very slick DIY foam system for your boat|OK , I did a bit of research on the subject of foam. I haven't foound anything local for me yet but i would encourage anyone thinking of doing it themselves to check out www.fomofoam.com This outfit looks like they have a slick system and sound like they are well aware of your needs being that they also specialize in insulating metal buildings. Their foam claims to have zero VOCS which alone is a big selling plus I think. Obviously you don't want to be plastering on cancer causing agents into your breathing space. This outfit at least promotes its product as being safe and is willing to provide data why and how. Hope this is a good link for someone. Carl| 7300|7272|2005-03-24 23:51:24|jericoera|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|Are you in Canada near Vancouver Island at all or on the west Coast? In case we aren't lucky it would be good to know wher ethe foam guys are. Thanks, Carl McIntosh shakeena@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > > Talked to a contractor doing spray foam in a home today at work and > this is what he said. > 1. they use 1/2 oz. per quibic.ft. foam on homes and 2oz. to 4oz.for > boats. > 2. they have so many large jobs they up the price on small if they > don't want to do something they make so little on. > 3. they do large boats (cammercal) > 4. have to drain and flush system to change to higher density foam > and then again to change back. > 5. they also have a pat. bedliner type material they spray over foam > for sealing it for things like large fish tankers used by fish and > fildlife. > 6. if the boat is trailered to there shop it can save on some jobs. > > Hope that helps shop around > > Jon | 7301|7210|2005-03-25 02:01:09|jim dorey|Re: Building Sequence|On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:32:52 -0800, Carl Di Stefano wrote: > > The key issue is that the system doesn't work, and has never worked in > tests. It is unlikely to work if fielded even if it passed it's tests > because it's a software intensive weapon and undoubtedly will suffer some > failure in its first hot experience. "Some failure" being letting at > least > one nuke through. The Canuks got this one right. one that works somewhat as advertised is the phalanx anti-missile system, definitely not a usable system in vast territories, but a hidden ring of them quietly put in place around and within a handfull of cities would offer quite good protection from missiles. but heck, you don't need a missile to cause a missiles damage. how about boats? blowing up a dirty bomb on a boat that's offshore from a big city, with wind at the right angle there's very little that can protect against it, doesn't even have to be a big boat, a canoe will get the same effect, just sail by, cut the tow rope, press a garage door remote button. the risks inherent in firing rockets to knock down rockets just don't make me feel safe, especially when they fly overhead, and have a high miss percentage. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7302|7302|2005-03-25 02:02:16|Marcel Demers|skeg capacity|Bonjour groupe, I'm Marcel Demers (yahoo's sailingredknight)I am in the mountains ( Laurentiens) just north of Montréal. I am finishing the interior of my 36' Brent Swain fin keel boat, I should have the interior done by this summer, for years I have piled up all sorts of different essence of wood to vary the natural look inside, and having a ball doing it wile my neighbours where starting to call me names like NOA and asking questions like '' think it's going to rain soon ? '' and saying things like ''you need water with that'' and ''you're suppose to put it on the mountain only AFTER the 40 days and 40 nights'' well if everything goes right I am now 53 and should leave the job ( Montréal firefighter ) within 2 years and live abord, will do the test drive on the Richelieu>lac Champlain>Hutson>NY>Bahamas>Exumas (at least away from the neighbours) But enough about later let' get back to now, I would like to ask you ''camarades'' a question: how much liquid is held by the skeg on my 36'boat? I don't write often too busy in the boat but I always take time to read all the messages everyday since a year and + .......Merci Marcel p.s. NOA, 40 days and 40 nights...juts a joke so please Bible freaks don't reply| 7303|7272|2005-03-25 02:02:37|jim dorey|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:03:06 -0000, jericoera wrote: > > > While I am no boat expert, I would check out the vapor barrier idea > before you do it. Even the smallest amount of moisture will be > trapped and as it can't get out, i would have to expect it would > corode your interior portion of your hull. The more a boat breathes > i think the better-please correct me if I am wrong in that train of > thought. maybe a deep texture on the underside of the wood and 1/8" spacing? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7304|7272|2005-03-25 02:26:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|Sorry to say Vancouver Wa. on the great river of the west The contractor is local and dose mostly comercial work and is exspanding into more and more resadental work. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > > Are you in Canada near Vancouver Island at all or on the west Coast? > In case we aren't lucky it would be good to know wher ethe foam guys > are. > > Thanks, > > Carl McIntosh > shakeena@s... > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > > > Talked to a contractor doing spray foam in a home today at work > and > > this is what he said. > > 1. they use 1/2 oz. per quibic.ft. foam on homes and 2oz. to > 4oz.for > > boats. > > 2. they have so many large jobs they up the price on small if they > > don't want to do something they make so little on. > > 3. they do large boats (cammercal) > > 4. have to drain and flush system to change to higher density foam > > and then again to change back. > > 5. they also have a pat. bedliner type material they spray over > foam > > for sealing it for things like large fish tankers used by fish and > > fildlife. > > 6. if the boat is trailered to there shop it can save on some jobs. > > > > Hope that helps shop around > > > > Jon | 7305|7272|2005-03-25 02:38:51|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|The breathing on steel boats and encapsolated wood boats is where the moisure for condensation comes from. Moist air against a cold surface and then you have condensation. If the surface is insolated in a way not to allow air to circulate against the cold surface there is no condensation or sweating. It is adviseable to prime or paint first on steel with a rust inhibator paint or primer.--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:03:06 -0000, jericoera wrote: > > > > > > > While I am no boat expert, I would check out the vapor barrier idea > > before you do it. Even the smallest amount of moisture will be > > trapped and as it can't get out, i would have to expect it would > > corode your interior portion of your hull. The more a boat breathes > > i think the better-please correct me if I am wrong in that train of > > thought. > > maybe a deep texture on the underside of the wood and 1/8" spacing This only works on trditional wood boats that are made to breath it would be bad on steel or plyboats that are not. Jon > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7306|7210|2005-03-25 07:15:47|Gerd|politics... :-(|Guys, please discuss that stuff where it belongs and let's keep to the subject here. This is one of the best and most focussed groups on the net and I would really like to continue to enjoy it like that in the future. Gerd| 7307|7307|2005-03-25 10:20:27|SHANE ROTHWELL|Political Filth|Gentlemen, For me this group is a Mecca. Polatics and anything related to it is deceptive thievery, lies and filth. Please, don't defecate on my Mecca. There are plenty of sites that deal with that filth, but please, please, not here. Thank you, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 7310|7299|2005-03-25 12:43:01|Alex Christie|Re: A very slick DIY foam system for your boat|I have reviewed that foam site http://www.fomofoam.com and it certainly looks like it would work. The videos show it capable of jetting the two-part foam onto a steel surface (workshop), so I don't see why it wouldn't work on a boat. It would take a few cans, but it looks like you could get a high enough build of foam. Probably nothing beats the professional job, but this sure could come in a close second. The only way to really know is to try it, of course, or buy a really small kit and try it out on the boat. It is two-part, so likely very sticky, and will probably stick to steel just fine. If it just didn't build high enough, it could still be covered over with the professional job later. If it worked fine, however, maybe we've got an answer to the problem of getting the job done economically. I also like the fact that you do it yourself. Only the boat-owner really knows how they want the job done, and this system would give you the chance to be thorough in the application process. Alex On 24-Mar-05, at 8:35 PM, jericoera wrote: > > > > OK , I did a bit of research on the subject of foam. I haven't > foound anything local for me yet but i would encourage anyone > thinking of doing it themselves to check out www.fomofoam.com > > This outfit looks like they have a slick system and sound like they > are well aware of your needs being that they also specialize in > insulating metal buildings. > > Their foam claims to have zero VOCS which alone is a big selling > plus I think. Obviously you don't want to be plastering on cancer > causing agents into your breathing space. This outfit at least > promotes its product as being safe and is willing to provide data > why and how. > > Hope this is a good link for someone. > > Carl > > | 7311|7272|2005-03-25 13:00:42|saillips|Re: sprayfoam, on site technical help|I had the opporunity to use a mix-it-yourself two part foam, each part in a 5 gallon container, when filling a 30 foot section of 4" diameter aluminum pole (it was an effort to increase stiffness and prevent buckling; too long a story to tell "why" beyond that). My recollections are that the VOC was extremely high, the fumes being worse that 2 part epoxy barrier coat, ect. Not only that, this paricular product contained (I'll never spell this correctly) cryocyanates. Meaning when it burns or is exposed to flames, it gives off cyanide type gases. Extremely poisonous and fatal if inhaled. As wonderful and tough as steel boats can be (including snug, quiet, and dry when properly insulated) fire is still a possible hazard, what with fuels, propane, electrical systems that could short out. My 2 cents worth is to carefully check the Safety Data Sheets for any spray foam product your are considering, even if you are having it professionally done. Don't get me wrong,I try to be as self sufficient as possible and not follow the ranks of "consumer boaters", but this may be one place where hiring the foaming out to someone who uses low VOC, non-toxic or low-toxicity material may well be worth the price for expediancy and peace of mind. To repeat my question from an earlier post: Does Brent or any other experienced Origami steel boat builder ever "go on locaton" to help an amateur builder get a hull cut and tacked together? Finally, Alex, thank you for all the effort you've put into this site and group, and please put me on the list for a DVD when it's available. David Lipsey| 7312|7312|2005-03-25 13:28:00|audeojude|Politics Please! NOT!|Let me weigh in on the side of those against politics in general here. I am as passionate as the next person in my beliefs. But not here. Where it is pertinate to building or using a boat maybe but most of what has shown up here other than a few posts that were interesting is of the my side is better than your side bashing. Or the your wrong and I'm right variety. My life is stressfull enough working to put groceries on the table, paying uncle sam his share, paying the mortage, insurance, dealing with irrate customers and nuts driving on the road with me. Building or buying a boat and sailing away is my dream of getting away from all the crazyness and having a slightly saner life. This forum and a few others are my daily escape in the direction of my dream. Please don't make it something I need to get away from also. Thank you, Scott Carle| 7313|7313|2005-03-25 14:22:35|newfield4u|The frameless S/V Tom Thumb.|I like the design very much. Tom Thumb looks like a big 24 foot vessel. The plumb stem works well for me, and wide decks and tuff raised house looks strong and safe. Plenty of room to run around with a stick or whatever....., and fight off unwelcome boarders if need be. Looks like a frameless multi chine construction. How did you do that? Lots of room in the stern, will there be a tiller or wheel? How will the rudder hang? Looks like plenty of keel...she will stay on course for sure. What's your sail plan? All and all, I would say that she is a smart tuff vessel! Please keep us updated and thanks for sharing. Regards, Carl Nostrand Homer, Alaska THe pool in the back ground of one of your photos is delightful. THere is nothing like a swim after some physical metal boat-building...... very refreshing work.| 7314|7272|2005-03-25 14:36:39|Alex Christie|Re: sprayfoam, on site technical help|The previously mentioned website says their foam has no VOCs, but I don't know if it has iso-cycanates when burned, and have written to them to find out. They also mentioned that they add a fire-retardant to their formula, and also have a fire-rated foam available (fire-rated, not "fire-stop" they are careful to point out). Painting the foam with a fire-retardant latex paint would be the right first step no matter what foam was used. The cost of their larger fire-rated foam kit was $775 USD, the regular kit being $695 USD so if I could get it done (properly) professionally for similar price I wouldn't do it myself. The big question is to determine whether more than one kit would be used. Alex| 7315|7272|2005-03-25 14:40:43|Joe Earsley|Re: sprayfoam, on site technical help|Running the numbers: 600 bd ft, used on a 36 foot cylinder 1" thick allows for a 5.3 foot diameter. Sounds too close to me. -----Original Message----- From: Alex Christie [mailto:achristie@...] Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:36 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sprayfoam, on site technical help The previously mentioned website says their foam has no VOCs, but I don't know if it has iso-cycanates when burned, and have written to them to find out. They also mentioned that they add a fire-retardant to their formula, and also have a fire-rated foam available (fire-rated, not "fire-stop" they are careful to point out). Painting the foam with a fire-retardant latex paint would be the right first step no matter what foam was used. The cost of their larger fire-rated foam kit was $775 USD, the regular kit being $695 USD so if I could get it done (properly) professionally for similar price I wouldn't do it myself. The big question is to determine whether more than one kit would be used. Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7316|7312|2005-03-25 14:57:50|Michael Casling|Re: Politics Please! NOT!|The first paragraph below is a fair description of the everage working guy on either side of the border, in any country speaking any language. We are all basically the same because we are the same. At 58 I have managed to get a handle on the first part and have been sailing for a long time, I am now working on the second part. Thanks for that. Michael sometimes called Mikhail. ----- Original Message ----- From: audeojude To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Politics Please! NOT! My life is stressfull enough working to put groceries on the table, paying uncle sam his share, paying the mortage, insurance, dealing with irrate customers and nuts driving on the road with me. Building or buying a boat and sailing away is my dream of getting away from all the crazyness and having a slightly saner life. This forum and a few others are my daily escape in the direction of my dream. Please don't make it something I need to get away from also. Thank you, Scott Carle To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7317|7272|2005-03-25 15:09:11|khooper_fboats|Re: sprayfoam, on site technical help|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > The previously mentioned website says their foam has no VOCs, but I > don't know if it has iso-cycanates when burned, and have written to > them to find out. Hi Alex, all urethane is made of isocyanates. You can't have one without the other. =^) It would be bad if people freaked out just because their foam has isocyanates in it. Isocyanates are not made of cyanide (isocyantes do seem to connotate some health risks but not once they're cured into urethane foam, as long as they don't light. I don't know how much, if any, cyanide urethane releases when it burns). Urethane foam need not have any VOCs in it whatsoever, either, though some do. Much good foam info here lately. It seems to me the ideal product would be a high-viscosity liquid foam with an extremely long cure time such that it could be applied with a brush or roller. I have inquiries in to two manufacturers (one Canadian and one American to keep things multicultural =^) to see whether such a product exists or can be formulated. If it is like every single other time I've contacted a manufacturer through email, I will be ignored. But we will see. --Hoop| 7319|7272|2005-03-25 16:44:25|jfpacuas|Spray foam, oiled and pickled steel, etc|HI folks, I've found some businesses here in Alaska that are sprayfoaming for about $2/ft^2 assuming 1.5-2 inch thickness. One guy seems pretty familiar with spraying boats. He is also somewhat flexible depending on the amount of pre and post spray work I am willing to do. I was talking with a steel supplier in Seattle the other day. I was curios as to whether they supplied wheel abraded, pre-primed steel. They advertised (and were quite proud of the terminology based on the frequency the phrase was used) "oiled and pickled steel". The salesman I talked to was just that, a salesman. He couldn't respond to questions concerning the prep of that steel other than to say it prevented rusting. Has anyone used this or know anything about it? It doesn't seem to have the same benefits as pre-primed steel, but that is just my gut feeling. It has proved quite challenging to get abraded, pre-primed steel here for less than a few body parts and appendages. As for other matters, I've lived in both the U.S. and Canada; they are very different places. The way I look at it is that any country that has wheel-abraded, pre-primed steel readily available and serves gravy with french fries is ok by me. This group is at its best when discussing boats. Cheers Paul| 7320|7272|2005-03-25 20:11:24|Alex Christie|steel preparation alternative|Oiled and Pickled in Seattle, hmm, just doesn't quite sound right for what we on the list need, does it? I'd have to know more about it, but it doesn't sound like a good surface for priming and painting, and you'd probably have to use a horrible solvent wash (talk about your VOCs...). For those who can't get pre-primed, I propose a protocol, one which I would use if I chanced upon a cheap source of un-primed steel. Feel free to publicly post additions to this protocol with your knowledge so that I haven't left any holes in the process. I think it could be a good alternative for those without access to pre-primed steel, though I have not tried it myself and cannot guarantee its success. That said, I did use this process in the tankage area of my hull inside, and found no problems with it. I had the opportunity to use a friend's small sandblaster so that I could blast and prime the area inside the hull where my water tank goes, and I was impressed with its ability to cut to white metal, leaving a very nice surface profile for the primer to latch onto. I then primed with Zinga, a very high zinc-content (the highest I have ever seen) primer, which is designed to be put on clean white steel. The results were very good. This got me thinking that if I had no choice but to use un-primed steel for a hull, then I would blast and prime with Zinga, but would do it in stages, using these steps: 1. Pull the two 36 foot-long sheets off the pile and apart as soon as possible after delivery, then allow the initial rusting and weathering to remove mill scale. Mill scale is described as the thin layer of iron oxides which form on structural steel after hot rolling and shaping. On steel purchased new from a mill, it will have mill-scale, but if you got a whole stack of sheet which have been sitting around a scrap metal yard then it should not. The chances of finding two 36 foot long pieces of steel are pretty remote for a scrap-yard anyhow! As Brent's book mentions, leaving the steel outside will do the job for you of removing mill scale. Mill scale comes off in the open because the scale and the steel beneath have different rates of expansion, and a temperature change will break the bonds between the two. So, with your sheets pulled apart and laying there to weather, the scale should be loosened, though only on the side looking at the sky. One side is okay, read on. 2. Rent or borrow a small blaster, and definitely rent a diesel-powered compressor with very big CFM (cubic feet per minute) output. I was able to hook up to the large compressors on the shop where I am at, and this was not really enough. I have been told that with the right pressure the small sandblaster I used would really make the job go fast. When I did the blasting inside the boat between the keels for the water tank, it was slow going, and the force of the abrasive lessened as the tank ran low. Blast all plates which are facing up to bare white metal, then use a roller and prime with Zinga, or whatever zinc-rich primer you want (you could even have it sprayed on if you like). This makes for an easy job on the flat, especially with the roller handle on a broomstick. Although there are areas which may become off-cuts, you might as well roller the whole thing because the off-cuts are not that large and the scraps may be used somewhere eventually. 3. Now you can pull your hull together, and the inside of the boat has already been primed. The Zinga is kind of white in colour, and will scuff, get dirty looking, and be affected by the sparks from welding, but you can touch up those areas. The hot sparks from welding burn through the primer where they land, so protecting the flat primered surfaces with a big piece of tin might be ideal. This saves you from having to blast the inside after you close it in (there was grit everywhere after I was done, and I am still finding it in the upper structure, and on the longitudinals). Because the primer is zinc rich, it will be very electrically conductive, and you can strike an arc and weld right through it, where needed, in order to get the two parts of the hull together. If you still had the blaster, you could clean the welds and stay on top of priming if you like, or just use a wire wheel and prime (the surface profile will not be quite as specified by the primer manufacturer, but this is inside the boat and not as critical as the outside). 4. The outside of the hull now exposes the steel to the elements for natural mill-scale removal (the temp difference may have started this already in any case, depending on the season), and this process should speed up now. Keep working on what you need to on the outside of the hull till keels and skeg are on, then you can rent your compressor and blast now, or wait until you've got your decks and cabin top on. Personally, I think it is good to not let chores stack up, speaking from experience, but you could leave it. 5. Rent the compressor again and blast - prime the outside (or hire someone). All grit falls off, so no problems with vacuuming and sweeping blast grit off of a structure. Now you can roll on Zinga on the outside surfaces of the hull. 6. Hull now ready for further priming if needed, and then painting. Zinga is self-bonding to itself when a second coat is put on because the solvents in the primer will eat into your original coat and lock into it, which allows endless touch-ups of your steel surface as needed. This makes this particular product very easy to use in that regard. If the sandblasting with the large rented compressor does not work as I hope (anyone with experience in this area?), then hiring a blaster to come in and do the job at different stages might be the way to go. Generally, I find that the less I depend on outside help the happier I am, and the happier my shrinking bank account is. Still hiring a professional blaster in 3 stages does spread the cost out for you over time, and if after the first round you don't like the results you can always go your own way. How does that proposed protocol sound? Alex On 25-Mar-05, at 1:43 PM, jfpacuas wrote: > > > HI folks, > > I've found some businesses here in Alaska that are sprayfoaming for > about $2/ft^2 assuming 1.5-2 inch thickness. One guy seems pretty > familiar with spraying boats. He is also somewhat flexible depending > on the amount of pre and post spray work I am willing to do. > > I was talking with a steel supplier in Seattle the other day. I was > curios as to whether they supplied wheel abraded, pre-primed steel. > They advertised (and were quite proud of the terminology based on the > frequency the phrase was used) "oiled and pickled steel". The > salesman I talked to was just that, a salesman. He couldn't respond > to questions concerning the prep of that steel other than to say it > prevented rusting. Has anyone used this or know anything about it? It > doesn't seem to have the same benefits as pre-primed steel, but that > is just my gut feeling. It has proved quite challenging to get > abraded, pre-primed steel here for less than a few body parts and > appendages. > > As for other matters, I've lived in both the U.S. and Canada; they > are very different places. The way I look at it is that any country > that has wheel-abraded, pre-primed steel readily available and serves > gravy with french fries is ok by me. > > This group is at its best when discussing boats. > > Cheers > > Paul | 7321|7321|2005-03-25 21:27:28|oldfijinerd|east coast origami boats|is there anyone on the east coast, say north of Annapolis who has a Brent Swain 36 or 40 that I could see? I am very close to deciding to build but I would really like to see a finished product to help work out some questions that arise from just seeing photos. Thanks Paul| 7322|7321|2005-03-26 01:08:45|Marcel Demers|Re: east coast origami boats|If you don't find anyone closer, I'm in Quebec with a 36 footer ----- Original Message ----- From: oldfijinerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 9:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] east coast origami boats is there anyone on the east coast, say north of Annapolis who has a Brent Swain 36 or 40 that I could see? I am very close to deciding to build but I would really like to see a finished product to help work out some questions that arise from just seeing photos. Thanks Paul To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7323|7323|2005-03-26 01:30:55|Russyl|Spray foam|Ok, I found a DIY spray foam called a "froth pack". It is made by Dow Chemicals and it has 2 prepressurized tanks with a spray gun and multiple nozzles for different spray widths and what not. I find an average price for the 180 cubic foot to be around 325 USD but I did find one closeout for 150 USD for the same kit. One thing I have noticed is that all the professional spray foam sites say to hire a professional to do it but I also find that these sites are from people who spray foam for a living. go figure. I will post pics when I spray mine on the inside and I will tell you if it is worth it to DIY in my opinion. Wish me luck in about a month or so.| 7324|7324|2005-03-26 01:51:06|jonhackett44|Compass selection|Anyone care to enlighten me a bit on compass selection for a BS 36? I hope to mount it in the steering station on the starboard side.| 7325|7323|2005-03-26 01:51:11|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Spray foam|What is the weeb sight and the density of the foam?? Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" wrote: > > Ok, I found a DIY spray foam called a "froth pack". It is made by Dow > Chemicals and it has 2 prepressurized tanks with a spray gun and > multiple nozzles for different spray widths and what not. > I find an average price for the 180 cubic foot to be around 325 USD > but I did find one closeout for 150 USD for the same kit. > One thing I have noticed is that all the professional spray foam > sites say to hire a professional to do it but I also find that these > sites are from people who spray foam for a living. go figure. > I will post pics when I spray mine on the inside and I will tell > you if it is worth it to DIY in my opinion. > > Wish me luck in about a month or so. | 7326|7272|2005-03-26 02:36:52|sae140|Re: steel preparation alternative|Hi Alex a useful protocol - with one exception: "Because the primer is zinc rich, it will be very electrically conductive, and you can strike an arc and weld right through it, where needed, in order to get the two parts of the hull together." The problem here is that zinc fumes will be generated, which is bad enough outdoors. Inside the hull the fumes would be hell. Suggest you skim at least 1" either side of the weld area with an angle grinder *before* you strike an arc. Otherwise a sound protocol. Anyone having difficulty with the new "Yahoo Groups format" ? - as I'm typing this, half the line is off the monitor. Well done Yahoo. If it ain't bust - don't fix it ! Colin| 7327|7272|2005-03-26 05:21:53|denis buggy|Re: steel preparation alternative|dear Alex great posting , re cfm for compressor you can match cfm to blaster by contacting the maker of the blaster and your advice re the diesel compressor is correct as I have a 15 kva three phase compressor and all the pro advice is that it is a toy and only a diesel will do the business for blasting , re the welding of zinc metal I made large garage doors some years ago and I had to weld the sheeting to mild steel it was galvanised and I got "galvo" and nearly died . my throat had long bleeding cuts and closed in to the with of a pencil , I spent 2 weeks sleeping in a chair as I could not breathe if lying down I know I did some permanent damage , the nature of welding is that you prefer to weld flat and in darkness with your open mouth over the welding and you are transfixed by the subtlies of the arc and the fumes are not visible take care . Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 1:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] steel preparation alternative Oiled and Pickled in Seattle, hmm, just doesn't quite sound right for what we on the list need, does it? I'd have to know more about it, but it doesn't sound like a good surface for priming and painting, and you'd probably have to use a horrible solvent wash (talk about your VOCs...). For those who can't get pre-primed, I propose a protocol, one which I would use if I chanced upon a cheap source of un-primed steel. Feel free to publicly post additions to this protocol with your knowledge so that I haven't left any holes in the process. I think it could be a good alternative for those without access to pre-primed steel, though I have not tried it myself and cannot guarantee its success. That said, I did use this process in the tankage area of my hull inside, and found no problems with it. I had the opportunity to use a friend's small sandblaster so that I could blast and prime the area inside the hull where my water tank goes, and I was impressed with its ability to cut to white metal, leaving a very nice surface profile for the primer to latch onto. I then primed with Zinga, a very high zinc-content (the highest I have ever seen) primer, which is designed to be put on clean white steel. The results were very good. This got me thinking that if I had no choice but to use un-primed steel for a hull, then I would blast and prime with Zinga, but would do it in stages, using these steps: 1. Pull the two 36 foot-long sheets off the pile and apart as soon as possible after delivery, then allow the initial rusting and weathering to remove mill scale. Mill scale is described as the thin layer of iron oxides which form on structural steel after hot rolling and shaping. On steel purchased new from a mill, it will have mill-scale, but if you got a whole stack of sheet which have been sitting around a scrap metal yard then it should not. The chances of finding two 36 foot long pieces of steel are pretty remote for a scrap-yard anyhow! As Brent's book mentions, leaving the steel outside will do the job for you of removing mill scale. Mill scale comes off in the open because the scale and the steel beneath have different rates of expansion, and a temperature change will break the bonds between the two. So, with your sheets pulled apart and laying there to weather, the scale should be loosened, though only on the side looking at the sky. One side is okay, read on. 2. Rent or borrow a small blaster, and definitely rent a diesel-powered compressor with very big CFM (cubic feet per minute) output. I was able to hook up to the large compressors on the shop where I am at, and this was not really enough. I have been told that with the right pressure the small sandblaster I used would really make the job go fast. When I did the blasting inside the boat between the keels for the water tank, it was slow going, and the force of the abrasive lessened as the tank ran low. Blast all plates which are facing up to bare white metal, then use a roller and prime with Zinga, or whatever zinc-rich primer you want (you could even have it sprayed on if you like). This makes for an easy job on the flat, especially with the roller handle on a broomstick. Although there are areas which may become off-cuts, you might as well roller the whole thing because the off-cuts are not that large and the scraps may be used somewhere eventually. 3. Now you can pull your hull together, and the inside of the boat has already been primed. The Zinga is kind of white in colour, and will scuff, get dirty looking, and be affected by the sparks from welding, but you can touch up those areas. The hot sparks from welding burn through the primer where they land, so protecting the flat primered surfaces with a big piece of tin might be ideal. This saves you from having to blast the inside after you close it in (there was grit everywhere after I was done, and I am still finding it in the upper structure, and on the longitudinals). Because the primer is zinc rich, it will be very electrically conductive, and you can strike an arc and weld right through it, where needed, in order to get the two parts of the hull together. If you still had the blaster, you could clean the welds and stay on top of priming if you like, or just use a wire wheel and prime (the surface profile will not be quite as specified by the primer manufacturer, but this is inside the boat and not as critical as the outside). 4. The outside of the hull now exposes the steel to the elements for natural mill-scale removal (the temp difference may have started this already in any case, depending on the season), and this process should speed up now. Keep working on what you need to on the outside of the hull till keels and skeg are on, then you can rent your compressor and blast now, or wait until you've got your decks and cabin top on. Personally, I think it is good to not let chores stack up, speaking from experience, but you could leave it. 5. Rent the compressor again and blast - prime the outside (or hire someone). All grit falls off, so no problems with vacuuming and sweeping blast grit off of a structure. Now you can roll on Zinga on the outside surfaces of the hull. 6. Hull now ready for further priming if needed, and then painting. Zinga is self-bonding to itself when a second coat is put on because the solvents in the primer will eat into your original coat and lock into it, which allows endless touch-ups of your steel surface as needed. This makes this particular product very easy to use in that regard. If the sandblasting with the large rented compressor does not work as I hope (anyone with experience in this area?), then hiring a blaster to come in and do the job at different stages might be the way to go. Generally, I find that the less I depend on outside help the happier I am, and the happier my shrinking bank account is. Still hiring a professional blaster in 3 stages does spread the cost out for you over time, and if after the first round you don't like the results you can always go your own way. How does that proposed protocol sound? Alex On 25-Mar-05, at 1:43 PM, jfpacuas wrote: > > > HI folks, > > I've found some businesses here in Alaska that are sprayfoaming for > about $2/ft^2 assuming 1.5-2 inch thickness. One guy seems pretty > familiar with spraying boats. He is also somewhat flexible depending > on the amount of pre and post spray work I am willing to do. > > I was talking with a steel supplier in Seattle the other day. I was > curios as to whether they supplied wheel abraded, pre-primed steel. > They advertised (and were quite proud of the terminology based on the > frequency the phrase was used) "oiled and pickled steel". The > salesman I talked to was just that, a salesman. He couldn't respond > to questions concerning the prep of that steel other than to say it > prevented rusting. Has anyone used this or know anything about it? It > doesn't seem to have the same benefits as pre-primed steel, but that > is just my gut feeling. It has proved quite challenging to get > abraded, pre-primed steel here for less than a few body parts and > appendages. > > As for other matters, I've lived in both the U.S. and Canada; they > are very different places. The way I look at it is that any country > that has wheel-abraded, pre-primed steel readily available and serves > gravy with french fries is ok by me. > > This group is at its best when discussing boats. > > Cheers > > Paul To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7328|7272|2005-03-26 05:33:37|Alex Christie|Re: steel preparation alternative|Hi Denis, Both Brent and I used organic filter masks when welding inside, and sometimes ran a fan which sucked out the gasses. Better yet would be a remote air supply. It's true about being transfixed by the arc...there is something alluring about it that just draws you in, like you are staring into the heart of the sun. Best to keep your head and wear a mask so you can gape open-mouthed at that weld puddle! The Zinga product we used, is advertised as being quite inert once the binder is dry, and rated in Europe for use in drinking water tanks. As elemental Zinc, I'm curious as to what component would off-gas and poison a person when you can eat the stuff without ill effect. I think I'll contact the Zinga rep about this and see if I can find out more. In the meantime, wearing proper filter masks never hurt anyone, so let's keep safety in mind so we can enjoy our creations! Alex On 26-Mar-05, at 2:20 AM, denis buggy wrote: > > dear Alex great posting , re cfm for compressor you can match cfm to > blaster by contacting the maker of the blaster and your advice re the > diesel compressor is correct as I have a 15 kva three phase compressor > and all the pro advice is that it is a toy and only a diesel will do > the business for blasting , > re the welding of zinc metal I made large garage doors some years ago > and I had to weld the sheeting to mild steel it was galvanised and I > got "galvo" and nearly died . my throat had long bleeding cuts and > closed in to the with of a pencil , I spent 2 weeks sleeping in a > chair as I could not breathe if lying down I know I did some > permanent damage , the nature of welding is that you prefer to weld > flat and in darkness with your open mouth over the welding and you > are transfixed by the subtlies of the arc and the fumes are not > visible take care . Denis > > | 7329|7297|2005-03-26 07:38:03|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: No More Politics|If want to discuss politics or any other off the wall subject, you might try the wooden boat site, hosted by WoodenBoat magazine. They have a bilge filled with that garbage. You can also glean some useful information to be used on your steel boat. Most of our steel boats are filled with wood on the inside and the guys there can help you with the wood part. http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi Gerald| 7330|7272|2005-03-26 08:28:06|seeratlas|Re: steel preparation alternative|Mozilla's free FireFox browser is working just fine with it for me. WinXP and 2000Pro. seer > Anyone having difficulty with the new "Yahoo Groups format" ? - as I'm > typing this, half the line is off the monitor. Well done Yahoo. > If it ain't bust - don't fix it ! > > Colin | 7331|7331|2005-03-26 08:53:02|john kupris|welding thru zinc rich primer|I think that somebody warned, a while back, that the zinc in the weld zone leads to a weak weld. I have tried to search for the report but I have had no luck. I would like to warn people who will be blasting that I have a hull that is weathering out side. It was blasted with a good blaster and at first cilica sand(nasty stuff) and then I switched to black magmum slag abrasives. I work alone and so I only do about 60 square feet a day and I allways painted the same day with zinc rich primer. When I look at the hull, it is very apperant to me, in 60 square feet patches, where I used the grit one time and painted, excellant results. " Two times " very light rust showing and must be redone. " three times lots of rust showing " " " . Being frugal by nature I sifted the used sand back into the blaster and sand turns into a light powder right away, hence my shifting to the black slag abrasive. I think that using slag just once is a very cheap insurance for your hull. cheers, John| 7332|7272|2005-03-26 09:11:09|Gerd|Re: steel preparation alternative|another great improvement seems to be that now if you click "next" you get "previous" and vice versa ;-) Also, the layout and typo takes more space meaning that you have to do more scrolling... overall, even if colors a nicer, I prefered the old one. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > Mozilla's free FireFox browser is working just fine with it for me. > WinXP and 2000Pro. > seer > > > Anyone having difficulty with the new "Yahoo Groups format" ? - as I'm > > typing this, half the line is off the monitor. Well done Yahoo. > > If it ain't bust - don't fix it ! > > > > Colin | 7333|7333|2005-03-26 10:43:41|SHANE ROTHWELL|Metal Prepration|Hi Alex, thanks for the dissertation on metal prep when you can 't get wheel abraded & primed. Sounds right but I'm not the guy to confirm that. However have done a fair bit of sandblasting (bye the bye, you mentioned "white metal" I assume you meant all the crap cut off & right down to the virgin material. yes?) Anyway, the sandblasters themselves are cheap, under $50 unless you are into a great big one, the problem as you mentioned is the volume of air you ram through it. My little compressor, 1/2 hp 2cylinder unit is a workhorse but when blasting continiously goes down to 40 psi = you can do it but it's very slow. Spoke to a commercial sandblaster in Vancouver, southamerican bloke who charges $1.- per foot of concrete. Miniumum 1k sq ft. runs 5 tonne trucks & while compressors were big, they were only about 3-5 hp units (the rest of the weight taken up in blasting medium). At these kind of prices perhaps best to get great big compressor & belt it off front end of the engine of your truck/car = buy it once and sell when done. dont know if this would work, but if bolting it onto your vehicle to use crank pulleys or whatever donk you have, you could work without a storage tank, have the pressure control wired to an electrical clutch & away you go (only potential problem would be that most control switches on compressors are AC & most electrical clutches are DC... so need a transformer?? Would this work? Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 7334|7272|2005-03-26 11:27:30|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Spray foam, oiled and pickled steel, etc|Pickled and Oiled Steel is what fabricators using laser or plasma prefer. Pickling is using acid to remove scale. Galvanizers also do this as the first step of the hot dip galvanizing process. The oil is applied to keep the steel from rusting before it is used. I just finished working in a tube steel plant this week. They used an oil finish on a lot of their tubing. They told me that it has a life span of about six weeks. For this reason they try to keep only enough tubing in the warehouse to meet demand. They as much of that six weeks to occur at the customers place so they don't get complaints about prematurely rusted material. Normally the type of oil used is easily cleaned off so it doesn't interfere with painting. Pickled and Oiled is normally used for steel that will be painted. One thing everyone should be aware of. You should avoid using any product which contains any form of silicone if you want to paint steel. Silicone interferes with paint adhesion in virtually every case. It is also nearly impossible to remove. We have special silicone cleaners we keep on hand for emergencies, but they don't always work. The steel tubing plant had to replace tank once because they couldn't remove the silicone contamination. We had a customer replace $200K worth of Ultrafilter membranes because of a defoamer containing silicone! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 4:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Spray foam, oiled and pickled steel, etc > > > HI folks, > > I've found some businesses here in Alaska that are sprayfoaming for > about $2/ft^2 assuming 1.5-2 inch thickness. One guy seems pretty > familiar with spraying boats. He is also somewhat flexible depending > on the amount of pre and post spray work I am willing to do. > > I was talking with a steel supplier in Seattle the other day. I was > curios as to whether they supplied wheel abraded, pre-primed steel. > They advertised (and were quite proud of the terminology based on the > frequency the phrase was used) "oiled and pickled steel". The > salesman I talked to was just that, a salesman. He couldn't respond > to questions concerning the prep of that steel other than to say it > prevented rusting. Has anyone used this or know anything about it? It > doesn't seem to have the same benefits as pre-primed steel, but that > is just my gut feeling. It has proved quite challenging to get > abraded, pre-primed steel here for less than a few body parts and > appendages. > > As for other matters, I've lived in both the U.S. and Canada; they > are very different places. The way I look at it is that any country > that has wheel-abraded, pre-primed steel readily available and serves > gravy with french fries is ok by me. > > This group is at its best when discussing boats. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7335|7333|2005-03-26 12:42:49|Alex Christie|Re: Metal Prepration|I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged the blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white sand seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. In either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air which allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of primer where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline weld bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but Zinga people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the zinc-rich primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly safe because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against the metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, but then it would cut the rust more effectively. Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would avoid having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with the silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on blast day would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag powder out of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real chore, and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. Alex| 7336|7323|2005-03-26 12:59:29|audeojude|Re: Spray foam|http://www.dow.com/buildingproducts/frothpak/prod_config.htm i found the above page on the dow website... looks like a answer maybe for DIY foaming. Havent found prices yet though. scott carle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" wrote: > > Ok, I found a DIY spray foam called a "froth pack". It is made by Dow > Chemicals and it has 2 prepressurized tanks with a spray gun and > multiple nozzles for different spray widths and what not. > I find an average price for the 180 cubic foot to be around 325 USD > but I did find one closeout for 150 USD for the same kit. > One thing I have noticed is that all the professional spray foam > sites say to hire a professional to do it but I also find that these > sites are from people who spray foam for a living. go figure. > I will post pics when I spray mine on the inside and I will tell > you if it is worth it to DIY in my opinion. > > Wish me luck in about a month or so. | 7337|7272|2005-03-26 13:26:59|Paul Cotter|Re: Spray foam, oiled and pickled steel, etc|Thanks Gary! -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: 03/26/2005 7:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Spray foam, oiled and pickled steel, etc Pickled and Oiled Steel is what fabricators using laser or plasma prefer. Pickling is using acid to remove scale. Galvanizers also do this as the first step of the hot dip galvanizing process. The oil is applied to keep the steel from rusting before it is used. I just finished working in a tube steel plant this week. They used an oil finish on a lot of their tubing. They told me that it has a life span of about six weeks. For this reason they try to keep only enough tubing in the warehouse to meet demand. They as much of that six weeks to occur at the customers place so they don't get complaints about prematurely rusted material. Normally the type of oil used is easily cleaned off so it doesn't interfere with painting. Pickled and Oiled is normally used for steel that will be painted. One thing everyone should be aware of. You should avoid using any product which contains any form of silicone if you want to paint steel. Silicone interferes with paint adhesion in virtually every case. It is also nearly impossible to remove. We have special silicone cleaners we keep on hand for emergencies, but they don't always work. The steel tubing plant had to replace tank once because they couldn't remove the silicone contamination. We had a customer replace $200K worth of Ultrafilter membranes because of a defoamer containing silicone! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 4:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Spray foam, oiled and pickled steel, etc > > > HI folks, > > I've found some businesses here in Alaska that are sprayfoaming for > about $2/ft^2 assuming 1.5-2 inch thickness. One guy seems pretty > familiar with spraying boats. He is also somewhat flexible depending > on the amount of pre and post spray work I am willing to do. > > I was talking with a steel supplier in Seattle the other day. I was > curios as to whether they supplied wheel abraded, pre-primed steel. > They advertised (and were quite proud of the terminology based on the > frequency the phrase was used) "oiled and pickled steel". The > salesman I talked to was just that, a salesman. He couldn't respond > to questions concerning the prep of that steel other than to say it > prevented rusting. Has anyone used this or know anything about it? It > doesn't seem to have the same benefits as pre-primed steel, but that > is just my gut feeling. It has proved quite challenging to get > abraded, pre-primed steel here for less than a few body parts and > appendages. > > As for other matters, I've lived in both the U.S. and Canada; they > are very different places. The way I look at it is that any country > that has wheel-abraded, pre-primed steel readily available and serves > gravy with french fries is ok by me. > > This group is at its best when discussing boats. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7338|7338|2005-03-26 14:16:13|seeratlas|Silas Crosby|Was rambling thru a web posting of a trip round Vancouver Island when I came across this mention of the writer coming across the Silas Crosby :) in Columbia cove on the 'weather' side of Vancouver Island. Pictures of which grace the photos section of this group :) Thought the owner and perhaps others might appreciate seeing it, as well as the writer's impression of the boat and crew :) LOL. http://www.tgw.net/sailing/avi/ch3.htm seer| 7339|7272|2005-03-26 14:34:04|evanmoonjunk|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > > I think that sounds high. I think 1500-2000 CDN sounds more in the > ballpark you should be looking. > Rowland The boats owned by the 2 Gary's (36') were both foamed within a short period of time by Insulpro, a national company with an office in Victoria(Vancouver Island) The foam was 1 1/2" thick + and the cost for each boat was $1450 cnd. There was a fair amount that had to be cut out, which is easier if you use the special tool they will lend, or will do it for you for a price. I used a wire wheel on a grinder which workde fine but is incredibly messy! A bit of feedback on the new format, I liked the old one a lot better....Evan| 7340|7340|2005-03-26 14:57:17|seeratlas|Anchor Hawsepipes|I've been spending time lately working on the design of the bow of my boat and trying to figure out how to deal with the necessary raiseable/removable/replaceable bowsprit, the attendant bobstay, and two large anchor's which i'd prefer not to have to muscle with on the deck. Maybe I should back up a bit and tell you why. First as those of you who have seen the sketches in my folder in the file section know, this boat currently is planned at abit under 43ft on deck. It is a simplified schooner with bowsprit and bobstay, and is intended to be able to take me and infrequent quests anywhere in the world I want to go, but especially the Pac Northwest, and the canals of Europe. The canals dictate certain parameters of beam and draft, but also mean a rig that can be lowered to the deck without a crane (thus tabernacles on fore and main) as well as a bowsprit that can be relased and pivoted skyward and even removed and replaced with some kind of rubber clad blunt 'bumper' sprit for lack of a better name for fending off barges and other vessels in the confines of a lock. This makes the hanging of the ground tackle in the 'normal' location somewhat problematical, so I'm trying to work out in my mind why I couldn't just weld in two custom stainless anchor 'plates' with integral hawsepipes thus lowering the weight of the groundtackle while underway, and making deployment dead simple, and completely avoiding any interference with whatever machinations are necessary around the bow with the sprit. I was wondering if Brent or any of the other designers have any thoughts and/or experience on the possibility of working hawsepipes into the design,and/or any construction 'gotcha's' i should try to plan around. Any thoughts? opinions? experiences on how best to do this? I was planning on sinking my Brentesque ( :) anchor winch into a protected, i.e. below foredeck locker similar to the ones pictured on several of the boats, so the cable/chain would come off the winch, angled upward over some kind of pulley, then down the hawse's. Since I'm going to have pressurized water up there for other reasons, I'll also have two nozzles aiming down the top of the pipes which will spray out seawater at some considerable pressure as the line/chain is being hauled in. This 'should' knock the slime and mud off and back down the pipe into the sea before it ever gets close to coming aboard. With my windlass being primarily hydraulic, backup manual, this gives me the option of starting the engine, engaging the water pump, triggering the winch and slowly taking up the groundtackle all from the helm. The appearance of the chain in the pulley will clue me as to the impending arrival of the anchor. Again, any thoughts, speculations etc. especially from anyone with canal experience would be appreciated. seer| 7341|7333|2005-03-26 16:16:43|put_to_sea|Re: Metal Prepration|Because I expect to have difficulty finding primed steel, I was considering the following: As Alex suggested, I was going to blast one side of the hull plates and both sides of the smaller pieces while flat on the ground by a commercial blaster. I think this would be less expensive because blasting in the open, flat on the ground should be easy and fast. Then I would give it a quick coat of some soft protective paint to temporarily prevent rust. The paint I am thinking of would be similar to the paint we used back in the midwest on moldboard plow bottoms. This paint would protect the polished surface of the plow from rust but when next used, would quickly and easily scour off the bottom. I would weld up the hull touching up any bare spots with this paint as I went and when finished use a smaller sand blaster to clean this paint off and paint with Zinga, etc. My reasoning is that this temporary paint would come off quickly and easily with the smaller blaster and then I could do a top notch interior paint job. The exterior I would save for last and have a commercial blaster do the job. The exterior seems straight forward compared to the interior with all its nooks and crannies to blast and paint. Amos| 7342|7333|2005-03-26 17:39:10|jim dorey|Re: Metal Prepration|On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:43:35 -0500 (EST), SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > dont know if this would work, but if bolting it onto > your vehicle to use crank pulleys or whatever donk you > have, you could work without a storage tank, have the > pressure control wired to an electrical clutch & away > you go (only potential problem would be that most > control switches on compressors are AC & most > electrical clutches are DC... so need a transformer?? depending on the type of switch at final out, most plain switches and relays have a rating for both ac and dc, standard electronics switches have something like 3amp 120volt and 2amp 12volt, dc is much harder on switches. you can run fused battery power to the relay or switch and that would be enough. if i knew what pressure switch you were going to use i could figure out the circuit and post it somewhere. but anyways, i think that probably the pressure switch would only be useful if you have a pressue vessel. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7343|7272|2005-03-26 17:56:46|kendall|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "evanmoonjunk" wrote: > > > A bit of feedback on the new format, I liked the old one a lot > better....Evan make sure you let Yahoo know that! It's a pain, I don't like this new format as to the foam, can that be cut with a hotwire? I've cut lots of foam, built a few custom front ends for cars, and other custom or 'one off' replacement parts, using foam as a mold or base then covering with fiberglass, and have always used a hotwire cutter to rough shape it, then went to a sureform and sandpaper for final shaping/fitting, worked on styrofoam and polyiso foam. ken.| 7344|7331|2005-03-26 18:40:01|T & D CAIN|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|Zinc vapour in the weld zone has no significant effect with mild steel, but it does have a serious damaging effect in a transition weld between low carbon steel and any stainless austenitic grades. Make sure that transition welds are free of any zinc primer remnants before welding. On the blasting abrasive sizes and sharpness, between 2 and 3 mm is pretty good for slag types, and if you want to reclaim the stuff that is still useable ( sharp edged particles down to 1 mm) try winnowing using either a strong natural breeze or a large fan at some distance. This works well in grading the particles so that you can select the stuff you want to sieve before re-use. Always sieve before adding used material to the pot. I used a wide flat shovel to feed the grit slowly into the airstream. Use dust mask on this job. Airless, then pressure pot atomisation, then roller, of zinc primers is really the preferred order of ways to apply --- brushing 2-pack zincs should be left to welds and small touch-up jobs. I learned the hard way that brushing a really deeply blasted surface is a mistake which can only be rectified by re-blasting, and personally, I think roller priming is not the go either. The winnowing plus sieving also works well for garnet-based blast abrasives. Surface dusts and fine-but-useless grit is blown some distance from the collection sheet. Terry -----Original Message----- From: john kupris [mailto:john4sue@...] Sent: Saturday, 26 March 2005 23:23 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] welding thru zinc rich primer| 7345|7345|2005-03-26 20:24:08|Gary H. Lucas|Watermakers|The subject of watermakers came up here a little while ago. In particular was some talk about whether a particular pump was suitable. I thought I'd try to shed a little light on RO membranes. I am by no means an expert, yet. I do however work for a company where I now design and build membrane filtration systems, including RO systems. My first RO went into a plant near Rochester NY last year. It produces 25 gallons per minute from an 8in membrane housing that is 20 feet long. I just finished another one going to Australia. It has four 4in housings 50" long. It will be used to separate silver from acid solutions in a mining operation. Virtually all membrane systems work the same way. They are called 'crossflow' filtration systems because dirty water passes through the filter in a continuos stream and the permeate (clean water) passes out through the sides. A membrane filter is rated in GFD, gallons per square foot per day. In metric it is cubic meters per square meter per day. The rate are very low, typically less that 100 GFD so it takes a huge membrane area to get a usable amount of water. RO systems get the huge area by using two membranes separated by a coarse cloth. The membranes are sealed to each other along 3 sides. The fourth side gets sealed to a perforated center tube. Then a much coarser cloth is applied to one side of this sandwich and the whole thing is rolled up into a spiral. The spiraled filter is placed in a preassure housing. dirty water flows in the end of the pressure housing and through the spiraled membranes edgewise. The clean permeate passes through the membrane and ito the coarse separator cloth whre it travels around the spiral to the center collecting tube. The collecting tube also passes out the end caps and brings out the low pressure permeate. As clean water permates through the membrane the concentration of materials in the dirty water increases. If it increases too much it will precipitate and form scale, fouling the separator cloths and possibly ruining the membrane. In simple boat RO systems powered by the engine you just pass the water through onec and dump it back in the ocean. The low energy DC powered systems typically use clever pressure recovber systems to recover the energy used to raise the water to high pressure. In our industrial systems we recyle some of the high pressure water back to the front of the membrane, to save energy and increase the concentration of the dirty water. It is very important that you have enough flow through an RO membrane to create turbulence to prevent fouling. RO membranes produce permeate (clean water) even at the low pressures we use to clean them, about 50 psi. They just don't produce very much, so high pressure is necessary to get useful quantities. Thus the 1500 psi pump at 1-1/2 GPM may work fine, IF the membrane to be used requires less than 1-1/2 GPM of flow. If it requires more than that, the pressure will be of no use. The membrane will foul rapidly and be ruined. Membranes are available in many sizes and pressure ratings. To get fresh water from seawater you need RO membranes with very small pores, salt is a small molecule. That requires high pressure for useful volumes, typically 800 PSI or better. We have RO membranes in housings 1in in diameter and 24 inches long. 4in diameter x 40" modules are very popular. We also use 8in housings that hold up to 6 40in long membranes. One company is now making an 18in diameter membrane that is 60in long. Three 18in housings 24 feet long produce 1 million gallons a day. I can answer many questions you may have about housings, pumps and such. I also have access to experts, both in house and at the vendors we deal with, and literature that will answer any other questions you may have. Gary H. Lucas| 7346|7345|2005-03-26 20:32:19|T & D CAIN|Re: Watermakers|Gary, thanks for that info.. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: Sunday, 27 March 2005 10:54 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Watermakers| 7347|7297|2005-03-26 21:26:22|seeratlas|Re: No More Politics|With all due respect, Gerald, the officials who have commissioned my opinon over the years never once referred to it as "garbage' LOL. I have to date received something over 30 private notes regarding my side of the discussion, all but one of which was favorable and that last one pretty much neutral, merely expressing concern over the reactions of some of the forum members. In deference I shall henceforth refrain. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > If want to discuss politics or any other off the wall subject, you > might try the wooden boat site, hosted by WoodenBoat magazine. They > have a bilge filled with that garbage. > You can also glean some useful information to be used on your steel > boat. Most of our steel boats are filled with wood on the inside and > the guys there can help you with the wood part. > http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi > Gerald | 7348|7272|2005-03-27 00:11:27|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cost to sprayfoam a 36 footer|In what they are now doing in residentual they are useing a flexable knife about 4' long and running along the studs . The same could be done with the stringers in the hull. Jon > > as to the foam, can that be cut with a hotwire? I've cut lots of > foam, built a few custom front ends for cars, and other custom or 'one > off' replacement parts, using foam as a mold or base then covering > with fiberglass, and have always used a hotwire cutter to rough shape > it, then went to a sureform and sandpaper for final shaping/fitting, > worked on styrofoam and polyiso foam. > > > ken. | 7349|7345|2005-03-27 04:50:53|denis buggy|Re: Watermakers|dear Gary thanks for making ro understandable , if I wished to fit a simple unit which had the matching pump and membrane in one housing with a pulley on one end for my fanbelt off a gen set or engine , what is the minimum working system I could rig up and at what cost do you expect I should pay. regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 2:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Watermakers The subject of watermakers came up here a little while ago. In particular was some talk about whether a particular pump was suitable. I thought I'd try to shed a little light on RO membranes. I am by no means an expert, yet. I do however work for a company where I now design and build membrane filtration systems, including RO systems. My first RO went into a plant near Rochester NY last year. It produces 25 gallons per minute from an 8in membrane housing that is 20 feet long. I just finished another one going to Australia. It has four 4in housings 50" long. It will be used to separate silver from acid solutions in a mining operation. Virtually all membrane systems work the same way. They are called 'crossflow' filtration systems because dirty water passes through the filter in a continuos stream and the permeate (clean water) passes out through the sides. A membrane filter is rated in GFD, gallons per square foot per day. In metric it is cubic meters per square meter per day. The rate are very low, typically less that 100 GFD so it takes a huge membrane area to get a usable amount of water. RO systems get the huge area by using two membranes separated by a coarse cloth. The membranes are sealed to each other along 3 sides. The fourth side gets sealed to a perforated center tube. Then a much coarser cloth is applied to one side of this sandwich and the whole thing is rolled up into a spiral. The spiraled filter is placed in a preassure housing. dirty water flows in the end of the pressure housing and through the spiraled membranes edgewise. The clean permeate passes through the membrane and ito the coarse separator cloth whre it travels around the spiral to the center collecting tube. The collecting tube also passes out the end caps and brings out the low pressure permeate. As clean water permates through the membrane the concentration of materials in the dirty water increases. If it increases too much it will precipitate and form scale, fouling the separator cloths and possibly ruining the membrane. In simple boat RO systems powered by the engine you just pass the water through onec and dump it back in the ocean. The low energy DC powered systems typically use clever pressure recovber systems to recover the energy used to raise the water to high pressure. In our industrial systems we recyle some of the high pressure water back to the front of the membrane, to save energy and increase the concentration of the dirty water. It is very important that you have enough flow through an RO membrane to create turbulence to prevent fouling. RO membranes produce permeate (clean water) even at the low pressures we use to clean them, about 50 psi. They just don't produce very much, so high pressure is necessary to get useful quantities. Thus the 1500 psi pump at 1-1/2 GPM may work fine, IF the membrane to be used requires less than 1-1/2 GPM of flow. If it requires more than that, the pressure will be of no use. The membrane will foul rapidly and be ruined. Membranes are available in many sizes and pressure ratings. To get fresh water from seawater you need RO membranes with very small pores, salt is a small molecule. That requires high pressure for useful volumes, typically 800 PSI or better. We have RO membranes in housings 1in in diameter and 24 inches long. 4in diameter x 40" modules are very popular. We also use 8in housings that hold up to 6 40in long membranes. One company is now making an 18in diameter membrane that is 60in long. Three 18in housings 24 feet long produce 1 million gallons a day. I can answer many questions you may have about housings, pumps and such. I also have access to experts, both in house and at the vendors we deal with, and literature that will answer any other questions you may have. Gary H. Lucas To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7350|7333|2005-03-27 05:33:30|nortje_wynand|Re: Metal Prepration|From past experiences I found that the minimum pressure to shotblast steel plates is about 275 CFM (cubic feet per minute). However , we uses 380 CFM with operator controlled remote unit without any clogging or problems. We uses the black stuff - copper slag grit - blasting through a 12mm nozzle. A word of warning. Do not touch the steel with bare hands or dirty gloves after blasting. I had this case that when we prime coated the hull after blasting, a full size handprint was showing in the paint! We painted again to no avail and eventually had to reblast that area again.| 7351|7313|2005-03-27 06:14:23|nortje_wynand|Re: The frameless S/V Tom Thumb.|Hi Carl, Thankx. The Tom Thumb 24 is indeed a sturdy and solid little cruiser. Yes, her side decks would put some bigger boats to shame. She was designed by Grahaeme Shannon and is - LOA: 7.4m excluding bowsprit, Beam: 3.0m, draft 1.45m and displacement 3400kg loaded. She have full standing headroom (1.9m!!) under doghouse. Cabin (double berth) in forepeak with full standing headroom and locker, followed by P & S full length settees in saloon with pilot berth on SB side, the full head on SB side coming down the companionway and L shaped galley to P side with gimballed two burner stove/oven! with ice box. On P side she have a double quarterberth under the cockpit. Under the cockpit sole she have a 1 cylinder 8.5 Hp inboard diesel. Her tiller was transom hung and she carries a cutter rig. The original design was modified by myself in the following ways. The doghouse was lenghtend by just over 1.0m to create all that interior space with the down side of having a smaller cockpit and foredeck. The full Colin Archer keel was dumped in favour for a fin designed by myself. She sailed like a dream and the helm very well balanced with the fin, just a touch of weather helm. You are right Carl, she is a frameless multichine hull. The way I built her was to erect the frames on a strongback (inverted), slotted the frames in such a way that the stringers can pull out of the frames when the hull is lifted off the frame/former. Then it is just a matter of cut and fit the plates until she is plated up. After welding she is pulled of the frame and turned rightway up, and the deckbeams fitted and deckplating laid. Simple as that. I have photos available of the plating sequence. BTW, the hull and deck is built from only 3 mm mild steel plate. The boat in my backyard was eventually sold to a young singlehander that nagged me to sell the boat to him in 1992. He did two circumnavigations in her and the last I heard from him (now married) he cruises the pacific in TT24. This also shows that steelboats do not have to be heavily built to be safe and when a hull is properly blasted and epoxy prime coated/painted, thin plate can resists rust with preventative maintenance. It also shows that small boats can be spacious and serious offshore cruisers. I miss this boat that also happend to be my first at the time :-(| 7352|7297|2005-03-27 07:47:49|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: No More Politics|Also with all due respect. Until a short time ago I owned a 32' classic wooden yawl. The number one site that I found to talk about wooden boats, or working with wood inside of boats was the WoodenBoat forum. However, politics, religion, devil worship, etc. etc. almost took over the site. Many of the old timers that were always there, when you had a difficult problem, just up and left. They have now policed themselves to the point that the non boat stuff stays in the bilge section. Since this site has no bilge area, please be forewarned that non boat related can have a very negative effect on the best metal boat site on the net. That's my two cents worth ....... lets talk about sand blasting! Gerald| 7353|7333|2005-03-27 08:19:03|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Metal Prepration|My sand blast outfit consists of a 10 cylinder Wayne - Dresser compressor with a 30 HP motor, a tank that I built and uses a 1/4" nozzle. I can hold a constant 150 psi and have found that steel shot only half way works when I switch to a smaller nozzle and run my maximum pressure of 200 psi. I use dune sand and the unit cleans straight run steel at what I consider a good rate. I am sure there are better sands available. However, here it is against the law to blast with sand because of related health problems. It was mentioned using a dust mask and I my advice would be that along with the dust mask use a helmet with outside air being pumped in. I have adapted a motor cycle helmet that is almost completely closed and use a small oiless compressor as a source of air. I am flame spraying zinc to a thickness of about 1 mm. I would advise doing all your welding before starting the blasting and flame spray process. It is next to impossible to sand blast the zinc clean enough for a good weld. The zinc gets into the steels pores and it is a real bear to remove it. The question was raised about using the compressor without a tank. I saw a unit the other day with two five cylinder compressors powered by a 33 HP Yanmar marine engine. It was direct belt drive and when he shut down the sand blaster the 2" relief valve bleed off the air until he shut down the diesel. Gerald| 7354|7324|2005-03-27 11:42:07|Marcel Demers|Re: Compass selection|I installed a flux gate electronic compass on my console on the starboard side they are suppose to be trouble free, to set press a set button make a 360° turn and ''voila'' that's it everything is settled, compensation and all. My boat is not in the water so I haven't tried yet but I have seen it work in the Bahamas on a 36 feet steel sailboat Le Manitou and the owner ( Paul, very nice guy) told me it was the best. Hope it helps Marcel Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7355|7297|2005-03-27 11:55:29|epoxyplymadman|Re: No More Politics|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > Also with all due respect. Until a short time ago I owned a 32' classic > wooden yawl. The number one site that I found to talk about wooden > boats, or working with wood inside of boats was the WoodenBoat forum. > However, politics, religion, devil worship, etc. etc. almost took over > the site. Many of the old timers that were always there, when you had a > difficult problem, just up and left. They have now policed themselves > to the point that the non boat stuff stays in the bilge section. Since > this site has no bilge area, please be forewarned that non boat related > can have a very negative effect on the best metal boat site on the net. > That's my two cents worth ....... lets talk about sand blasting! > Gerald RIGHT-ON!| 7356|7356|2005-03-27 14:56:51|put_to_sea|Changing propeller pitch|Does anyone know how much the pitch of a two bladed bronze prop can be changed. I have found one for a good price but it would need more pitch. Amos| 7357|7297|2005-03-27 16:30:37|Earl Burgess|Re: No More Politics|It still does not belong here --no matter how wonderful. ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: No More Politics > > > With all due respect, Gerald, the officials who have commissioned my > opinon over the years never once referred to it as "garbage' LOL. > I have to date received something over 30 private notes regarding my > side of the discussion, all but one of which was favorable and that > last one pretty much neutral, merely expressing concern over the > reactions of some of the forum members. In deference I shall > henceforth refrain. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > > > If want to discuss politics or any other off the wall subject, you > > might try the wooden boat site, hosted by WoodenBoat magazine. They > > have a bilge filled with that garbage. > > You can also glean some useful information to be used on your steel > > boat. Most of our steel boats are filled with wood on the inside > and > > the guys there can help you with the wood part. > > http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi > > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7358|7345|2005-03-27 20:32:26|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Watermakers|Denis, I work with industrial RO systems. They all work the same way, but I'm used to huge pumps and flow rates you'd only see on a cruise liner! I will check and see though, what the various size smaller membranes cost. A little more info about membranes. All membrane systems have two drawbacks, that for a boat are quite important to be aware of. The first drawback is that the membranes are too costly to toss when they foul, so they must be chemically cleaned. What we do, and what you would probably need to do on a boat is called CIP (clean in place). All our systems have a small tank (relative to the other tanks in a system) that we put cleaning chemicals in. We then circulate the cleaning chemicals through the membrane for several hours. The cleaning chemicals are caustics for cleaning organic fouling, and an acetic acid based cleaner for calcium (hardness), metals, or mineral salts (seawater). The time between cleanings is entirely dependent on the quality of the water you are filtering. Which brings up another important point. The feed water to a membrane MUST be filtered to the highest level you can achieve! The more filtration you have up front the less problems you will have with the membrane, period. In our industrial systems we use an Ultrafilter in front of the RO membrane. An Ultrafilter is a tubular style of membrane, with much larger passages than an RO. An Ultrafilter is so fine that it won't pass any solids, only dissolved materials, like sea salts can pass through. ROs work best when there is absolutely no solids present in the incoming water. So you really should have a 1 micron filter in front of the RO membrane. Now a 1 Micron filter will plug really quickly with the typically dirty water you'd find in most harbors. So it would be a really good idea to have say a 10 micron filter in front of that, and a strainer basket in front of that. Sounds like a lot of filters doesn't it? If you want the least trouble this is the way to get it! You clean the strainer basket every time you run the system. You toss the 10 micron every so often, and the 1 micron a little less often. Then you chemically clean the RO as infrequently as possible. Cleaning frequency of the RO is easy to tell. When it starts to foul the permeate rate (clean water) falls off quickly. The second drawback to membrane filters is that they must NEVER be shut down dirty, or allowed to dry out! Doing so can permanently foul the membrane. So if you are running the RO and the permeate rate starts dropping off, forget about whatever you were planning on doing, you are going to have to clean the membrane first. Membranes get shipped to you wet, or coated with glycerin. Once you start using one it can never be allowed to dry out again. Since it must have water in it at all times this means it has to be protected from both freezing and biological bacteria growth. If the bacteria get going you lose the membrane to the fouling they produce in a hurry. Not to mention the potential health concerns. This means that a large water maker can actually be a curse. If you make so much water so fast that you hardly need to run it then you will be cleaning or preserving it all the time. Better to have one that you must run every day, so that it needs to cleaned and preserved less often. Never ever go away from your boat for a few days without cleaning and preserving the filter, or you will be replacing it if you get delayed in returning. The typical preservative used is Sodium Bisulfite. You need to flush the system out after preserving before you send any water to your tanks. One last thing. RO water may have so little solids that it actually becomes quite aggressive as a corrosive agent. This means it will rapidly corrode metals in your plumbing. If your RO water has a metallic taste it probably isn't coming from the RO membrane which is a plastic, typically PVDF which is very inert. Checking the pH of the water may show a low pH say less than 6.0 which would be corrosive as well. However 7.0 pH water which is considered neutral is quite corrosive if the TDS (total dissolved solids) is very low, say less than 100mS conductivity. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermakers > > dear Gary thanks for making ro understandable , if I wished to fit a > simple unit which had the matching pump and membrane in one housing with > a pulley on one end for my fanbelt off a gen set or engine , what is the > minimum working system I could rig up and at what cost do you expect I > should pay. regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 2:24 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Watermakers > > > The subject of watermakers came up here a little while ago. In > particular > was some talk about whether a particular pump was suitable. I thought > I'd > try to shed a little light on RO membranes. I am by no means an expert, > yet. I do however work for a company where I now design and build > membrane > filtration systems, including RO systems. My first RO went into a plant > near Rochester NY last year. It produces 25 gallons per minute from an > 8in > membrane housing that is 20 feet long. I just finished another one going > to > Australia. It has four 4in housings 50" long. It will be used to > separate > silver from acid solutions in a mining operation. > > Virtually all membrane systems work the same way. They are called > 'crossflow' filtration systems because dirty water passes through the > filter > in a continuos stream and the permeate (clean water) passes out through > the > sides. A membrane filter is rated in GFD, gallons per square foot per > day. > In metric it is cubic meters per square meter per day. The rate are very > low, typically less that 100 GFD so it takes a huge membrane area to get > a > usable amount of water. > > RO systems get the huge area by using two membranes separated by a coarse > cloth. The membranes are sealed to each other along 3 sides. The fourth > side gets sealed to a perforated center tube. Then a much coarser cloth > is > applied to one side of this sandwich and the whole thing is rolled up > into a > spiral. The spiraled filter is placed in a preassure housing. dirty > water > flows in the end of the pressure housing and through the spiraled > membranes > edgewise. The clean permeate passes through the membrane and ito the > coarse > separator cloth whre it travels around the spiral to the center > collecting > tube. The collecting tube also passes out the end caps and brings out > the > low pressure permeate. > > As clean water permates through the membrane the concentration of > materials > in the dirty water increases. If it increases too much it will > precipitate > and form scale, fouling the separator cloths and possibly ruining the > membrane. In simple boat RO systems powered by the engine you just pass > the > water through onec and dump it back in the ocean. The low energy DC > powered > systems typically use clever pressure recovber systems to recover the > energy > used to raise the water to high pressure. In our industrial systems we > recyle some of the high pressure water back to the front of the membrane, > to > save energy and increase the concentration of the dirty water. > > It is very important that you have enough flow through an RO membrane to > create turbulence to prevent fouling. RO membranes produce permeate > (clean > water) even at the low pressures we use to clean them, about 50 psi. > They > just don't produce very much, so high pressure is necessary to get useful > quantities. Thus the 1500 psi pump at 1-1/2 GPM may work fine, IF the > membrane to be used requires less than 1-1/2 GPM of flow. If it requires > more than that, the pressure will be of no use. The membrane will foul > rapidly and be ruined. > > Membranes are available in many sizes and pressure ratings. To get fresh > water from seawater you need RO membranes with very small pores, salt is > a > small molecule. That requires high pressure for useful volumes, > typically > 800 PSI or better. We have RO membranes in housings 1in in diameter and > 24 > inches long. 4in diameter x 40" modules are very popular. We also use > 8in > housings that hold up to 6 40in long membranes. One company is now > making > an 18in diameter membrane that is 60in long. Three 18in housings 24 feet > long produce 1 million gallons a day. > > I can answer many questions you may have about housings, pumps and such. > I > also have access to experts, both in house and at the vendors we deal > with, > and literature that will answer any other questions you may have. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7359|7333|2005-03-27 20:34:06|john kupris|Re: Metal Prepration|Hi Gerald, I would have guessed that dune sand is rounded from tumbling. Is the dune sand leaving the surface rough for the paint? that sounds like one hell of a compressor. cheers, John Gerald Niffenegger wrote: My sand blast outfit consists of a 10 cylinder Wayne - Dresser compressor with a 30 HP motor, a tank that I built and uses a 1/4" nozzle. I can hold a constant 150 psi and have found that steel shot only half way works when I switch to a smaller nozzle and run my maximum pressure of 200 psi. I use dune sand and the unit cleans straight run steel at what I consider a good rate. I am sure there are better sands available. However, here it is against the law to blast with sand because of related health problems. It was mentioned using a dust mask and I my advice would be that along with the dust mask use a helmet with outside air being pumped in. I have adapted a motor cycle helmet that is almost completely closed and use a small oiless compressor as a source of air. I am flame spraying zinc to a thickness of about 1 mm. I would advise doing all your welding before starting the blasting and flame spray process. It is next to impossible to sand blast the zinc clean enough for a good weld. The zinc gets into the steels pores and it is a real bear to remove it. The question was raised about using the compressor without a tank. I saw a unit the other day with two five cylinder compressors powered by a 33 HP Yanmar marine engine. It was direct belt drive and when he shut down the sand blaster the 2" relief valve bleed off the air until he shut down the diesel. Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7360|7333|2005-03-27 20:35:15|john kupris|Re: Metal Prepration|Hi Gerald, I would have guessed that dune sand is rounded from tumbling. Is the dune sand leaving the surface rough for the paint? that sounds like one hell of a compressor. cheers, John Gerald Niffenegger wrote: My sand blast outfit consists of a 10 cylinder Wayne - Dresser compressor with a 30 HP motor, a tank that I built and uses a 1/4" nozzle. I can hold a constant 150 psi and have found that steel shot only half way works when I switch to a smaller nozzle and run my maximum pressure of 200 psi. I use dune sand and the unit cleans straight run steel at what I consider a good rate. I am sure there are better sands available. However, here it is against the law to blast with sand because of related health problems. It was mentioned using a dust mask and I my advice would be that along with the dust mask use a helmet with outside air being pumped in. I have adapted a motor cycle helmet that is almost completely closed and use a small oiless compressor as a source of air. I am flame spraying zinc to a thickness of about 1 mm. I would advise doing all your welding before starting the blasting and flame spray process. It is next to impossible to sand blast the zinc clean enough for a good weld. The zinc gets into the steels pores and it is a real bear to remove it. The question was raised about using the compressor without a tank. I saw a unit the other day with two five cylinder compressors powered by a 33 HP Yanmar marine engine. It was direct belt drive and when he shut down the sand blaster the 2" relief valve bleed off the air until he shut down the diesel. Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7361|7333|2005-03-28 02:10:13|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Metal Prepration|The dune sand probably is somewhat rounded? However, it is what is available. As a matter of fact I can dig a hole beside my shop, dry the sand, and then fill the hole again with the used sand. On straight run steel it takes about three minutes to blast a square meter until it is white. I guess paint would stick to the surface? However, I am not using paint on the blasted surface. I am using flame spray zinc and paint will go on top of the zinc. I can adjust the flame spray gun to give me almost any surface texture that I want. Gerald| 7362|7333|2005-03-28 04:58:15|T & D CAIN|Re: Metal Prepration|According to Klingel and others, it's not only the surface profile you develop with flame spray, it's also the profile into which you flame spray which matters. Terry The dune sand probably is somewhat rounded? However, it is what is available. As a matter of fact I can dig a hole beside my shop, dry the sand, and then fill the hole again with the used sand. On straight run steel it takes about three minutes to blast a square meter until it is white. I guess paint would stick to the surface? However, I am not using paint on the blasted surface. I am using flame spray zinc and paint will go on top of the zinc. I can adjust the flame spray gun to give me almost any surface texture that I want. Gerald| 7363|7345|2005-03-28 08:41:20|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps an engine exhaust driven stainless 'still' might not be an easier and simpler way to go.... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Denis, > I work with industrial RO systems. They all work the same way, but I'm used > to huge pumps and flow rates you'd only see on a cruise liner! I will check > and see though, what the various size smaller membranes cost. > > A little more info about membranes. All membrane systems have two > drawbacks, that for a boat are quite important to be aware of. The first > drawback is that the membranes are too costly to toss when they foul, so > they must be chemically cleaned. What we do, and what you would probably > need to do on a boat is called CIP (clean in place). All our systems have a > small tank (relative to the other tanks in a system) that we put cleaning > chemicals in. We then circulate the cleaning chemicals through the membrane > for several hours. The cleaning chemicals are caustics for cleaning organic > fouling, and an acetic acid based cleaner for calcium (hardness), metals, or > mineral salts (seawater). The time between cleanings is entirely dependent > on the quality of the water you are filtering. Which brings up another > important point. The feed water to a membrane MUST be filtered to the > highest level you can achieve! The more filtration you have up front the > less problems you will have with the membrane, period. In our industrial > systems we use an Ultrafilter in front of the RO membrane. An Ultrafilter > is a tubular style of membrane, with much larger passages than an RO. An > Ultrafilter is so fine that it won't pass any solids, only dissolved > materials, like sea salts can pass through. ROs work best when there is > absolutely no solids present in the incoming water. So you really should > have a 1 micron filter in front of the RO membrane. Now a 1 Micron filter > will plug really quickly with the typically dirty water you'd find in most > harbors. So it would be a really good idea to have say a 10 micron filter > in front of that, and a strainer basket in front of that. Sounds like a lot > of filters doesn't it? If you want the least trouble this is the way to get > it! You clean the strainer basket every time you run the system. You toss > the 10 micron every so often, and the 1 micron a little less often. Then > you chemically clean the RO as infrequently as possible. Cleaning frequency > of the RO is easy to tell. When it starts to foul the permeate rate (clean > water) falls off quickly. > > The second drawback to membrane filters is that they must NEVER be shut down > dirty, or allowed to dry out! Doing so can permanently foul the membrane. > So if you are running the RO and the permeate rate starts dropping off, > forget about whatever you were planning on doing, you are going to have to > clean the membrane first. Membranes get shipped to you wet, or coated with > glycerin. Once you start using one it can never be allowed to dry out > again. Since it must have water in it at all times this means it has to be > protected from both freezing and biological bacteria growth. If the > bacteria get going you lose the membrane to the fouling they produce in a > hurry. Not to mention the potential health concerns. This means that a > large water maker can actually be a curse. If you make so much water so > fast that you hardly need to run it then you will be cleaning or preserving > it all the time. Better to have one that you must run every day, so that it > needs to cleaned and preserved less often. Never ever go away from your > boat for a few days without cleaning and preserving the filter, or you will > be replacing it if you get delayed in returning. The typical preservative > used is Sodium Bisulfite. You need to flush the system out after preserving > before you send any water to your tanks. > > One last thing. RO water may have so little solids that it actually becomes > quite aggressive as a corrosive agent. This means it will rapidly corrode > metals in your plumbing. If your RO water has a metallic taste it probably > isn't coming from the RO membrane which is a plastic, typically PVDF which > is very inert. Checking the pH of the water may show a low pH say less than > 6.0 which would be corrosive as well. However 7.0 pH water which is > considered neutral is quite corrosive if the TDS (total dissolved solids) is > very low, say less than 100mS conductivity. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "denis buggy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 4:50 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Watermakers > > > > > > dear Gary thanks for making ro understandable , if I wished to fit a > > simple unit which had the matching pump and membrane in one housing with > > a pulley on one end for my fanbelt off a gen set or engine , what is the > > minimum working system I could rig up and at what cost do you expect I > > should pay. regards Denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 2:24 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Watermakers > > > > > > The subject of watermakers came up here a little while ago. In > > particular > > was some talk about whether a particular pump was suitable. I thought > > I'd > > try to shed a little light on RO membranes. I am by no means an expert, > > yet. I do however work for a company where I now design and build > > membrane > > filtration systems, including RO systems. My first RO went into a plant > > near Rochester NY last year. It produces 25 gallons per minute from an > > 8in > > membrane housing that is 20 feet long. I just finished another one going > > to > > Australia. It has four 4in housings 50" long. It will be used to > > separate > > silver from acid solutions in a mining operation. > > > > Virtually all membrane systems work the same way. They are called > > 'crossflow' filtration systems because dirty water passes through the > > filter > > in a continuos stream and the permeate (clean water) passes out through > > the > > sides. A membrane filter is rated in GFD, gallons per square foot per > > day. > > In metric it is cubic meters per square meter per day. The rate are very > > low, typically less that 100 GFD so it takes a huge membrane area to get > > a > > usable amount of water. > > > > RO systems get the huge area by using two membranes separated by a coarse > > cloth. The membranes are sealed to each other along 3 sides. The fourth > > side gets sealed to a perforated center tube. Then a much coarser cloth > > is > > applied to one side of this sandwich and the whole thing is rolled up > > into a > > spiral. The spiraled filter is placed in a preassure housing. dirty > > water > > flows in the end of the pressure housing and through the spiraled > > membranes > > edgewise. The clean permeate passes through the membrane and ito the > > coarse > > separator cloth whre it travels around the spiral to the center > > collecting > > tube. The collecting tube also passes out the end caps and brings out > > the > > low pressure permeate. > > > > As clean water permates through the membrane the concentration of > > materials > > in the dirty water increases. If it increases too much it will > > precipitate > > and form scale, fouling the separator cloths and possibly ruining the > > membrane. In simple boat RO systems powered by the engine you just pass > > the > > water through onec and dump it back in the ocean. The low energy DC > > powered > > systems typically use clever pressure recovber systems to recover the > > energy > > used to raise the water to high pressure. In our industrial systems we > > recyle some of the high pressure water back to the front of the membrane, > > to > > save energy and increase the concentration of the dirty water. > > > > It is very important that you have enough flow through an RO membrane to > > create turbulence to prevent fouling. RO membranes produce permeate > > (clean > > water) even at the low pressures we use to clean them, about 50 psi. > > They > > just don't produce very much, so high pressure is necessary to get useful > > quantities. Thus the 1500 psi pump at 1-1/2 GPM may work fine, IF the > > membrane to be used requires less than 1-1/2 GPM of flow. If it requires > > more than that, the pressure will be of no use. The membrane will foul > > rapidly and be ruined. > > > > Membranes are available in many sizes and pressure ratings. To get fresh > > water from seawater you need RO membranes with very small pores, salt is > > a > > small molecule. That requires high pressure for useful volumes, > > typically > > 800 PSI or better. We have RO membranes in housings 1in in diameter and > > 24 > > inches long. 4in diameter x 40" modules are very popular. We also use > > 8in > > housings that hold up to 6 40in long membranes. One company is now > > making > > an 18in diameter membrane that is 60in long. Three 18in housings 24 feet > > long produce 1 million gallons a day. > > > > I can answer many questions you may have about housings, pumps and such. > > I > > also have access to experts, both in house and at the vendors we deal > > with, > > and literature that will answer any other questions you may have. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7364|7331|2005-03-28 11:15:07|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|Terry, What went wrong with brushing zinc rich primer onto well blasted dteel? Regards, Ted| 7365|7331|2005-03-28 11:19:18|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|Terry, What is the effect of zinc on mild steel stainless transition welds? Regards, Ted| 7366|7366|2005-03-28 17:13:41|Alex Christie|information about burning foam|Hi all, Just got this reply to my query back from Mr. Foam, regarding the toxicity of their cured foam when burned: On 28-Mar-05, at 1:57 PM, Sam Alvey wrote: > ALEX, > WHEN BURNED THE FUMES GIVEN OFF ARE THE SAME AS WHAT IS GIVEN OFF BY > FRAMING LUMBER. THE FUMES ARE COMPLETELY NON-TOXIC. THE ONE THING WE > STRIVE FOR ABOVE ALL OTHERS IS SAFETY FOR CONSUMERS, EARTH, AND > EMPLOYEES. > > > ________________________________ > Sam Alvey > Commercial Thermal Solutions, Inc. > Fomo Foam Products Division > Phone: 800.339.3531 Ext. 201 > Email: sam@... > > Web: www.fomofoam.com > Query: > > Hello Mr. Foam, my question is: > Do any of the foams produce isocyanates or cyanide-like compounds when > the cured product is burned in an accidental fire? > > We are planning on foaming the inside of a steel boat. > > Thanks, > > Alex Christie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7367|7331|2005-03-28 17:57:12|T & D CAIN|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|Ted, The profile with sharp 2/3 mm copper slag and a smallish (8mm) convergent / divergent nozzle is very deep. With around 700kPa (~105 psi) at the nozzle, the surface was so rough to touch it felt like coarse carborundum cloth. Getting zinc on at the required wet film thickness into this profile with a 75 mm brush proved extremely difficult --- especially in a hot climate. Thinning ratio was at max allowable to facilitate brushing. After 18 months of high humidity exposure, you could see the brush marks as a series of thin rust lines. An industrial paint inspector commented that this is a common problem with deep blast profiles. He said that if one used a good magnifying lens (microscope), the tops of the chipped-up steel are readily visible above the dry film surface. In my case, the wet film target was 200 microns and the dry film target was 100. His finding was that the brush could deposit into the pits but wiped the peaks to below a satisfactory thickness. I used an elcometer wet film gauge in all of the work, and the area coverage per litre reconciled quite well allowing for losses. Fine grade abrasives clean the surface quickly and it looks good, but the surface is not the best for zinc adhesion --- flame spray or epoxy-zinc or zinc silicates. Grit size is critical for proper profile development, but apparently it can be taken too far. Those areas done with air atomised (pressure pot) sprayed zinc remained unblemished after many years of exposure. All of the brushed areas had to be re-blasted. The wet film thickness was the same in each case, but even coverage proved to be nearly impossible with the brush. Wynand's comment about not touching the surface is very true. Terry -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 01:45 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: welding thru zinc rich primer Terry, What went wrong with brushing zinc rich primer onto well blasted dteel? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7368|7331|2005-03-28 17:57:15|T & D CAIN|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|As I remember it, Zinc vaporises in the arc and combines with the nickel / chromium / ferrite grain structure at the cooler edges of the weld zone. Cracking starts as a result. This finding came out of investigations(1960s) into weld failures on hydro-electric plants in Tasmania (and probably elsewhere) where some immersed screens contained transition welds on what was basically galvanised steel. That report was in an ESAA transactions journal. Terry. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/YmoolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7369|7331|2005-03-28 18:41:35|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|Terry, Thanks for the information. I have welded 316 stainless onto galv pipe bulwark rails after grinding off the galv so I hope that is OK. I blasted with sand before using zinga which has stayed on well with no rust. Regards, Ted| 7370|7345|2005-03-28 21:41:42|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Watermakers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps an engine exhaust driven stainless > 'still' might not be an easier and simpler way to go.... > > seer > I want to hear more about the 'still'. Someone is actually producing usable quantities? Gerald| 7371|7345|2005-03-29 00:46:31|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|Everything you ever wanted to know about building your own still :) whether for seawater or, beating those high vodka tariffs at port :) heheh (best be careful for the last one :) the tech is the same, metalurgy might be different for very hot seawater or brine, but I would think alu brass or bronze, or the higher grades of stainless up to exotic chromoly stainless would suffice. In any event, here's a good page to give you all the background you need and some intructions on building a pretty high class outfit. adapting it to a boat is another matter, but I'm sure we can work this out :) heheh http://www.moonshine-still.com/ oh and don't let the name put you off, this guy is in sweden I think :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps an engine exhaust driven stainless > > 'still' might not be an easier and simpler way to go.... > > > > seer > > > > I want to hear more about the 'still'. Someone is actually producing > usable quantities? > Gerald | 7372|7345|2005-03-29 00:54:35|bilgekeeldave|Re: Watermakers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps an engine exhaust driven stainless > > 'still' might not be an easier and simpler way to go.... > > > > seer > > > > I want to hear more about the 'still'. Someone is actually producing > usable quantities? > Gerald I operate shipboard low pressure 'flash' distillers. On motorships we use engine cooling jacket water to heat the seawater for distilling. The cold seawater, under pressure, first goes through an air ejector that draws a vacuum on the 'shell' of the distiller. Then it goes through a plate type heat exchanger where the cold seawater is used to condense the vaporized water, it also picks up the latent heat of vaporization here, warming the feed seawater as it condenses water vapor. Then it goes through another plate type heat exchanger where it picks up the heat from the jacket water. From there it is sprayed into the 'shell' of the distiller through nozzles. Some of it imediately flashes into steam at about 170F (water boils at a much lower temperature in a vacuum) this steam passes through a stainless steel mesh called a moisture separator this prevents salty droplets of water from getting into the upper chamber where the condensing heat exchanger, that the water encountered first, is located. The steam condenses on the plates of the heat exchanger and drips into a collecting tray that send the distilled water to a distillate pump. from there it goes past a salinity meter and then to the storage tanks. The system requires that you run at least three pumps; one for feeding seawater to the unit, another to pump the distillate out and a third to pump the 'brine' overbored. As with a revese osmosis desalinator, not all of the seawater that is processed is converted to fresh water. One advantage of the low pressure distiller is that it is not important to pre-filter the seawater entering the unit. There is a coarse strainer in the seawater suction to strain out the plastic and fish, but the rest just flushes through with the brine. The heat exchangers must also be acid washed every few months as distilled water production slowly falls off. These units require much more power to operate than a reverse osmosis unit. The reason we use them on large motorships is that we have a vast amount of waste heat from the engine jacket water and the engine exhaust. This heat just goes over the side when the distillers are not being used. We also make electricity from the waste exhaust heat by pumping distilled water through another heat exchanger in the smokestack. The exhaust gasses heat the water to steam which we use to run a steam turbine to make electricity. We get free fresh water, but that only works when there is a lot of waste heat, not a situation that you would find on a sailboat. Dave| 7373|7331|2005-03-29 03:22:10|T & D CAIN|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|Ted, That 40+ year gap corrupted the memory of the actual item in the HECT incident, it was Penstock Gates, not screens (I think!!!) which had the 316 to mild transitions. I should also mention that if that epoxy-zinc primer had been over-coated within the 3 day prescribed max time limit, I would probably have been none the wiser. However, it was intended to leave that external hull surface in the zinc state and "whip blast" prior to the J87 system application much later in the job. Maybe the brush application would have been adequate (in the event of cuts and abrasions ) in its intended task of preventing undercutting at the wound site. Time passed and the sins were there to see. Terry -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 09:11 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: welding thru zinc rich primer Terry, Thanks for the information. I have welded 316 stainless onto galv pipe bulwark rails after grinding off the galv so I hope that is OK. I blasted with sand before using zinga which has stayed on well with no rust. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7374|7345|2005-03-29 06:02:18|jim dorey|Re: Watermakers|On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:40:40 -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps an engine exhaust driven stainless > 'still' might not be an easier and simpler way to go.... > > seer you might be able to get a fair deal of water by making a floating solar still, or use a black garbage bag on deck filled with some water and a large bucket. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7375|7345|2005-03-29 08:15:18|sae140|Re: Watermakers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > The feed water to a membrane MUST be filtered to the highest level you can achieve! The more filtration you have up front the less problems you will have with the membrane, period. In our industrial systems we use an Ultrafilter in front of the RO membrane. So you really should have a 1 micron filter in front of the RO membrane. Now a 1 Micron filter will plug really quickly with the typically dirty water you'd find in most harbors. So it would be a really good idea to have say a 10 micron filter in front of that, and a strainer basket in front of that. There's a lot of low-tech ceramic filtration research being done at the moment in India - an unglazed ceramic (terra-cotta) filter currently removes up to 95.5% of contaminants (metals, bacteria and the usual crud you find in Indian ground- and surface- water), and a small amount of chloride ions - but not sodium (yet). One of those in-line would reduce the RO work-load significantly. When they block, a quick scrub-down and they're back in service again. Cost pennies and have a life of up to 5yrs. I understand they're currently working on a method of ramming the clay before firing - using 15 ton hydraulic jacks - to reduce the pore size even further. Keywords for doing a Google: Potters for Peace filter, PFP, Terafil. Colin| 7376|7345|2005-03-29 09:15:47|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|My impression was that diesel engine exhaust runs a sustained 600 to 900F, turbo units up to 1200 or so. Since I'm planning a dry exhaust running out the bottom of the hull, the extremely short run from engine exhaust manifold into a distiller would mean some darned high temps, more than sufficient to boil pretty substantial amounts of water I would think. Seems to me that a good sized beer keg, cut apart, add a grid of exhaust piping welded inside, add in and out seawater spigots for filling, rig up a removable top(for cleaning) with the outlet tubes for the steam and some kind of cool water jacketed distillation tubes for condensing the distilled water, a test trap on the outlet to make sure everything is punky dory, and then a pipe run into a water tank. A bit of work, but fun and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I'll have to do some research on the complexity required of the condesation tubes, but I'm sure someone has worked all this out already. I'd be surprised if I'd need to go the whole hog route of the big commercial stills. Since i'm trying to rig my boat up to do more 'motorsailing' than either pure sailing/ or pure motoring, (big fuel tanks, variable pitch prop, serious attempt at engine bay sound/vibration insulation etc.) I should have plenty of time underway to make copious amounts of water. I just can't get excited about the maintenance aspects of the RO systems. I'm told those membranes are expensive as hell, and thats when you can get them when you need them. Plus not being able to run them in harbor due to pollution etc. means to save the membrane you'd be going thru the pickling process more often than seems fun. Time for some more research :). seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > The feed water to a membrane MUST be filtered to the highest level > you can achieve! The more filtration you have up front the less > problems you will have with the membrane, period. In our industrial > systems we use an Ultrafilter in front of the RO membrane. So you > really should have a 1 micron filter in front of the RO membrane. > Now a 1 Micron filter will plug really quickly with the typically > dirty water you'd find in most harbors. So it would be a really good > idea to have say a 10 micron filter in front of that, and a strainer > basket in front of that. > > > > There's a lot of low-tech ceramic filtration research being done at > the moment in India - an unglazed ceramic (terra-cotta) filter > currently removes up to 95.5% of contaminants (metals, bacteria and > the usual crud you find in Indian ground- and surface- water), and a > small amount of chloride ions - but not sodium (yet). > One of those in-line would reduce the RO work-load significantly. > When they block, a quick scrub-down and they're back in service > again. Cost pennies and have a life of up to 5yrs. > I understand they're currently working on a method of ramming the > clay before firing - using 15 ton hydraulic jacks - to reduce the > pore size even further. Keywords for doing a Google: Potters for > Peace filter, PFP, Terafil. > Colin | 7377|7345|2005-03-29 09:58:33|khooper_fboats|Re: Watermakers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > water I would think. Seems to me that a good sized beer keg, cut > apart, add a grid of exhaust piping welded inside, add in and out > seawater spigots for filling, rig up a removable top(for cleaning) > with the outlet tubes for the steam and some kind of cool water > jacketed distillation tubes for condensing the distilled water, a test > trap on the outlet to make sure everything is punky dory, and then a > pipe run into a water tank. A bit of work, but fun and I don't see > any reason why it wouldn't work. I'll have to do some research on the > complexity required of the condesation tubes, but I'm sure someone has > worked all this out already. I'd be surprised if I'd need to go the > whole hog route of the big commercial stills. I don't know if you'd have enough spare heat to do much actually. Remember the engine can be adequately cooled by a couple square feet of radiator surface. That doesn't imply enough heat to boil up clouds of cold seawater continuously. I could be wrong. Dave mentioned his systems are under vacuum and you could make it far more efficient that way. In fact given sufficient vacuum you can make the vapor sublimate out of water at ambient temperature or even below. This is how freeze-dryers work. They make water behave like dry ice, becoming steam without ever passing through a liquid stage, simply by sustaining a high vacuum. If it were possible to use exhaust heat to pump a piston or membrane, use that to create vacuum, and use the vacuum to sublimate water vapor, possibly far more volume could be achieved. Just thinking out loud. Penguins go ahead and eat sea water, they just developed salt glands to take the load off their kidneys because they thought it was simpler. --Hoop| 7378|7345|2005-03-29 12:34:50|bilgekeeldave|Re: Watermakers|When we make potable water, we keep the temperature above 180F to assure that all pathogens are killed. When we are makeing boiler water, we can run the distiller at around 160F, water production goes up at the lower temperature. You could have an engine driven vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on your homemade distiller. With the commercial plants, once the water vapor is condensing to distillate, the vacuum actually improves, so the vacuum pump would have less work to do once you were producing water. On old steam ships they had highpressure evaporators, they were way less efficient, and they were a pressure vessel. As with any pressure vessel there is always a chance for an explosion. I don't think I would want a highpressure evaporator on my sailboat, it would be like having a bomb in my engine compartment. In any case, it would be wise to fit a relief valve on any evaporator, low or high pressure. Dave > > Dave mentioned his systems are under vacuum and you could make it far more efficient > that way. In fact given sufficient vacuum you can make the vapor sublimate out of water at > ambient temperature or even below. This is how freeze-dryers work. They make water > behave like dry ice, becoming steam without ever passing through a liquid stage, simply > by sustaining a high vacuum. > > If it were possible to use exhaust heat to pump a piston or membrane, use that to create > vacuum, and use the vacuum to sublimate water vapor, possibly far more volume could be > achieved. Just thinking out loud. > > Penguins go ahead and eat sea water, they just developed salt glands to take the load off > their kidneys because they thought it was simpler. > > --Hoop | 7379|7345|2005-03-29 12:59:00|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|couple of 'blowoff' pressure relief valves would be a necessity of course, no question there. Hadn't given much thought to the vac aspect in an effort to avoid unnecessary complication, but i'm still at the 'studying' stage. I wasn't planning a high pressure installation, not building a steam engine, just a boiling pot. on the ability of the coolant to keep engine temp down, that's because a VERY large part of the heat being generated is simply being dumped out the exhaust...it's that otherwise wasted heat I'd like to take advantage of. My memory of the thermal efficiency of an internal combustion engine has long since faded, but i seem to recollect it was strikingly bad for that reason. As was pointed out earlier, one of the real advantages of going the distillation route over RO is that you get a much cleaner result. Assuming the 'boiler' is designed such that it is easily flushed/cleaned, seems that a lot less maintenance would be required. Also seems to me that given appropriate metallurgy in construction, the requistite replacement parts list would be pretty small. Like i said, time for more research :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bilgekeeldave" wrote: > > When we make potable water, we keep the temperature above 180F to > assure that all pathogens are killed. When we are makeing boiler > water, we can run the distiller at around 160F, water production > goes up at the lower temperature. > > You could have an engine driven vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on your > homemade distiller. With the commercial plants, once the water vapor > is condensing to distillate, the vacuum actually improves, so the > vacuum pump would have less work to do once you were producing water. > > On old steam ships they had highpressure evaporators, they were way > less efficient, and they were a pressure vessel. As with any > pressure vessel there is always a chance for an explosion. I don't > think I would want a highpressure evaporator on my sailboat, it > would be like having a bomb in my engine compartment. In any case, > it would be wise to fit a relief valve on any evaporator, low or > high pressure. > > Dave > > > > > > Dave mentioned his systems are under vacuum and you could make it > far more efficient > > that way. In fact given sufficient vacuum you can make the vapor > sublimate out of water at > > ambient temperature or even below. This is how freeze-dryers work. > They make water > > behave like dry ice, becoming steam without ever passing through a > liquid stage, simply > > by sustaining a high vacuum. > > > > If it were possible to use exhaust heat to pump a piston or > membrane, use that to create > > vacuum, and use the vacuum to sublimate water vapor, possibly far > more volume could be > > achieved. Just thinking out loud. > > > > Penguins go ahead and eat sea water, they just developed salt > glands to take the load off > > their kidneys because they thought it was simpler. > > > > --Hoop | 7380|7345|2005-03-29 14:51:05|Henri Naths|Re: Watermakers|Hi seer , I chose not posting to origami boats because of virus problems. I feel confident that there will not be any virus' from my computer. I am interested in the thermal efficiency of ic engines. I'm like you, having read it a long time ago I cant remember where or what it was but it was bad. Barring a google search,.. probably would be a government site for that information? Cheers, H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: 29 March, 2005 10:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > couple of 'blowoff' pressure relief valves would be a necessity of > course, no question there. Hadn't given much thought to the vac aspect > in an effort to avoid unnecessary complication, but i'm still at the > 'studying' stage. I wasn't planning a high pressure installation, not > building a steam engine, just a boiling pot. > > on the ability of the coolant to keep engine temp down, that's because > a VERY large part of the heat being generated is simply being dumped > out the exhaust...it's that otherwise wasted heat I'd like to take > advantage of. My memory of the thermal efficiency of an internal > combustion engine has long since faded, but i seem to recollect it was > strikingly bad for that reason. > > As was pointed out earlier, one of the real advantages of going the > distillation route over RO is that you get a much cleaner result. > Assuming the 'boiler' is designed such that it is easily > flushed/cleaned, seems that a lot less maintenance would be required. > Also seems to me that given appropriate metallurgy in construction, > the requistite replacement parts list would be pretty small. > > Like i said, time for more research :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bilgekeeldave" > wrote: >> >> When we make potable water, we keep the temperature above 180F to >> assure that all pathogens are killed. When we are makeing boiler >> water, we can run the distiller at around 160F, water production >> goes up at the lower temperature. >> >> You could have an engine driven vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on your >> homemade distiller. With the commercial plants, once the water vapor >> is condensing to distillate, the vacuum actually improves, so the >> vacuum pump would have less work to do once you were producing water. >> >> On old steam ships they had highpressure evaporators, they were way >> less efficient, and they were a pressure vessel. As with any >> pressure vessel there is always a chance for an explosion. I don't >> think I would want a highpressure evaporator on my sailboat, it >> would be like having a bomb in my engine compartment. In any case, >> it would be wise to fit a relief valve on any evaporator, low or >> high pressure. >> >> Dave >> >> >> > >> > Dave mentioned his systems are under vacuum and you could make it >> far more efficient >> > that way. In fact given sufficient vacuum you can make the vapor >> sublimate out of water at >> > ambient temperature or even below. This is how freeze-dryers work. >> They make water >> > behave like dry ice, becoming steam without ever passing through a >> liquid stage, simply >> > by sustaining a high vacuum. >> > >> > If it were possible to use exhaust heat to pump a piston or >> membrane, use that to create >> > vacuum, and use the vacuum to sublimate water vapor, possibly far >> more volume could be >> > achieved. Just thinking out loud. >> > >> > Penguins go ahead and eat sea water, they just developed salt >> glands to take the load off >> > their kidneys because they thought it was simpler. >> > >> > --Hoop > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7381|7345|2005-03-29 14:57:19|racer577@citystar.com|Re: Watermakers|From my memory it is about 33% of the energy is used to turn the crank, 33% goes to cooling, and 33% goes out the exhaust. John > I am interested in the thermal efficiency of ic engines. I'm like you, > having read it a long time ago I cant remember where or what it was but it > was bad. Barring a google search,.. probably would be a government site > for > that information? > Cheers, > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > >seeratlas@...@yahoogroups.com | 7382|7356|2005-03-29 15:47:07|brentswain38|Re: Changing propeller pitch|Any more than four inches and the blade tends to break off . Over 2 inches and you have to heat the blade near the hub, before bending it.. It also depends on how good the metal is. Put it on your finger and tap tap it with metal. If it's electrolysis free, it will ring like a bell. If it has electrolysis problems, it will give a dull thunk. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > > Does anyone know how much the pitch of a two bladed bronze prop can > be changed. I have found one for a good price but it would need more > pitch. > > Amos | 7383|7297|2005-03-29 15:49:16|brentswain38|Re: No More Politics|There's plenty of room on Yahoo groups Canadian politics site for such discussion. Do it there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Burgess" wrote: > It still does not belong here --no matter how wonderful. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 9:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: No More Politics > > > > > > > > With all due respect, Gerald, the officials who have commissioned my > > opinon over the years never once referred to it as "garbage' LOL. > > I have to date received something over 30 private notes regarding my > > side of the discussion, all but one of which was favorable and that > > last one pretty much neutral, merely expressing concern over the > > reactions of some of the forum members. In deference I shall > > henceforth refrain. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > > wrote: > > > > > > If want to discuss politics or any other off the wall subject, you > > > might try the wooden boat site, hosted by WoodenBoat magazine. They > > > have a bilge filled with that garbage. > > > You can also glean some useful information to be used on your steel > > > boat. Most of our steel boats are filled with wood on the inside > > and > > > the guys there can help you with the wood part. > > > http://woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi > > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7384|7331|2005-03-29 15:51:20|brentswain38|Re: welding thru zinc rich primer|In over 30 years I've never had a problem with it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > As I remember it, Zinc vaporises in the arc and combines with the nickel / > chromium / ferrite grain structure at the cooler edges of the weld zone. > Cracking starts as a result. > This finding came out of investigations(1960s) into weld failures on > hydro-electric plants in Tasmania (and probably elsewhere) where some > immersed screens contained transition welds on what was basically galvanised > steel. That report was in an ESAA transactions journal. > Terry. > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -------------------- ~--> Give > the gift of life to a sick child. > Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' > http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/YmoolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ~-> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 7385|7345|2005-03-29 17:44:41|denis buggy|Re: Watermakers|33% is accurate the famous scania dsc 11 litre engine had an ad stating it was awarded the most fuel efficient engine in the world per bhp/fuel however you were shocked to find 37% was it , the new fiat truck engines have a turbo down the pipe from the main engine turbo , this secondary turbo is connected by gears to the flywheel gear and fiat states it can recover 11% of power from the exhaust pipe . some apartment blocks in Italy are heated and powered by a single car engine in a thermal box which extracts the maximum energy available from a gallon of petrol and while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the air supplied to the engine . Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: racer577@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers From my memory it is about 33% of the energy is used to turn the crank, 33% goes to cooling, and 33% goes out the exhaust. John > I am interested in the thermal efficiency of ic engines. I'm like you, > having read it a long time ago I cant remember where or what it was but it > was bad. Barring a google search,.. probably would be a government site > for > that information? > Cheers, > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > >seeratlas@...@yahoogroups.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7386|7345|2005-03-29 20:49:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Watermakers|There are some very good reasons why RO is rapidly replacing distillation, even when you have lots of free energy available. First off is that RO systems are incredibly simple. It's like modern solidstate electronics. The 'magic' is in the chips, and the whole circuit you see is incredibly simple compared to the same circuitry done as discrete components. You think you've got corrosion problems with your hull and rigging, you ain't seen nothing until you try saltwater at elevated temperatures! The energy savings are very large too. Distallation can actually get quite close to RO in efficiency. But it is not even close in a simple system. To get high efficiencies you've got to use vacuum, heat the incoming water with the outgoing water etc. That takes lots of additional equipment and makes things much more complex. In a large system like you would find on a big ship it can work very well. However, even there RO is winning. The RO I installed last year is 9 feet long, 3 feet wide, and 6 feet tall, excluding the 10 inch diameter x 20 foot long RO housing. That space does include the wash tank and wash pump though and a spare high pressure pump and motor as well. So it would actually fit in the hull of a 36' sailboat, and you could still walk around it. It requires 30 Hp to run, so the engine in your boat could run it. It will produce 25 gpm, or 36,000 gallons per day! So you could raft up with your typical 800 foot cruise ship and supply just about all their water needs each day! I will draw up a P&I (Process & Instrumentation) drawing for simple system for a boat so you can see how simple it really is. Gary H. Lucas| 7387|7345|2005-03-29 23:10:34|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|Gary, I spent a half hour or so at the last Seattle Boat Show talking to one of the engineers from one fo the leading boat RO companies. The normal sales guy had gone for lunch and this engineer just happened to be there. This company also makes backpack motor driven units for the Armed Forces. They use a titanium pump, and his description of the maintenance on the system for a couple days on, couple of weeks off scenario was not very encouraging, especially when he mentioned that the membrane costs were in the several hundred dollar range. I should have taken notes, but I believe he quoted me something around 4k$ US for a system that would do what I want to do, which is to be able to take frequent long hot showers :) heheh. He was not encouraging on the actual longevity of a membrane under yacht conditions, and if I remember correctly, these relatively small membranes were something like 200.00 US each. I think i understand that to et a truly efficient distallion system, the multiple tanks, lowered pressure, or perhaps vapor pump thing is employed in commercial units, but seems to me that's because the efficiency is measured on a dedicated use of fuel/energy per gallon of distallate produced. The exhaust on my boat motor is going out the bottom of the hull whether I use it to boil water or not, so that more complication to achieve competitive 'efficiency' argument pretty much goes out the window in my case. I'm looking to figure how much water I have to boil in an exhaust driven boiler to receive a given amount of distilled water on the other end during a several hour long 'motorsailing' session. From there I can extrapolate out to decide if it makes any sense. As for corrosion, i hear you but if we have all these wet exhausts running around I would think that the requisite material specs have long since been determined :)Assuming someone has built successful wet exhausts for these thousand horse monster turbo diesels...my little dry exhaust pipes running thru a barrel of seawater shouldn't be too tough to build. I havn't given up on RO , but if there's a simple way of doing distillation, I think I'd prefer that way. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > There are some very good reasons why RO is rapidly replacing distillation, > even when you have lots of free energy available. First off is that RO > systems are incredibly simple. It's like modern solidstate electronics. > The 'magic' is in the chips, and the whole circuit you see is incredibly > simple compared to the same circuitry done as discrete components. You > think you've got corrosion problems with your hull and rigging, you ain't > seen nothing until you try saltwater at elevated temperatures! The energy > savings are very large too. Distallation can actually get quite close to RO > in efficiency. But it is not even close in a simple system. To get high > efficiencies you've got to use vacuum, heat the incoming water with the > outgoing water etc. That takes lots of additional equipment and makes > things much more complex. In a large system like you would find on a big > ship it can work very well. However, even there RO is winning. > > The RO I installed last year is 9 feet long, 3 feet wide, and 6 feet tall, > excluding the 10 inch diameter x 20 foot long RO housing. That space does > include the wash tank and wash pump though and a spare high pressure pump > and motor as well. So it would actually fit in the hull of a 36' sailboat, > and you could still walk around it. It requires 30 Hp to run, so the engine > in your boat could run it. It will produce 25 gpm, or 36,000 gallons per > day! So you could raft up with your typical 800 foot cruise ship and supply > just about all their water needs each day! > > I will draw up a P&I (Process & Instrumentation) drawing for simple system > for a boat so you can see how simple it really is. > > Gary H. Lucas | 7388|7345|2005-03-29 23:16:09|Henri Naths|Re: Watermakers|(while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates heat and h2o...? please explain. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: 29 March, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > 33% is accurate the famous scania dsc 11 litre engine had an ad stating > it was awarded the most fuel efficient engine in the world per bhp/fuel > however you were shocked to find 37% was it , the new fiat truck engines > have a turbo down the pipe from the main engine turbo , this secondary > turbo is connected by gears to the flywheel gear and fiat states it can > recover 11% of power from the exhaust pipe . some apartment blocks in > Italy are heated and powered by a single car engine in a thermal box > which extracts the maximum energy available from a gallon of petrol and > while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in > the air supplied to the engine . Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: racer577@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:13 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > From my memory it is about 33% of the energy is used to turn the crank, > 33% goes to cooling, and 33% goes out the exhaust. > > John > > > I am interested in the thermal efficiency of ic engines. I'm like you, > > having read it a long time ago I cant remember where or what it was but > it > > was bad. Barring a google search,.. probably would be a government site > > for > > that information? > > Cheers, > > H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > >seeratlas@...@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7389|7345|2005-03-29 23:52:41|jim dorey|Re: Watermakers|On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:15:51 -0700, Henri Naths wrote: > (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the > air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates > heat and h2o...? please explain. > H. with combustion, high efficiencies lead to completeness, when complete combustion occurs you get heat, water and carbon dioxide, in a gasoline engine the output includes much oxides of nitrogen and carbon monoxide, diesels have less of these 'bad' things because the fuel is burned instead of detonated. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7390|7345|2005-03-30 00:52:09|Henri Naths|Re: Watermakers|maybe my question wasn't clear... Denis wrote...(while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the air supplied to the engine ).... I wrote...(the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates heat and h2o)....in an internal combustion engine , the chemical reaction :-- oxidation of a hydrocarbon = heat + h2o as a by product ... for every unit of fuel burnt (any fuel.-- diesel, methane, gasoline ,propane) water is produced/created. The hydrogen in the fuel combines with the o2= h2o. My question: How can there be 3 gallons of water consumed? H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim dorey" To: Sent: 29 March, 2005 9:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:15:51 -0700, Henri Naths > wrote: > >> (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the >> air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates >> heat and h2o...? please explain. >> H. > > with combustion, high efficiencies lead to completeness, when complete > combustion occurs you get heat, water and carbon dioxide, in a gasoline > engine the output includes much oxides of nitrogen and carbon monoxide, > diesels have less of these 'bad' things because the fuel is burned instead > of detonated. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7391|7242|2005-03-30 02:07:23|gschnell|Re: Skeg cooling water expansion|That high point at the back of the skeg bothered me, too. I eventually drilled and tapped it and inserted a brass plug. This allows me to bleed it when filling the system. Once the system is full and pressurized, no more air should ingress...I hope. I have also added an expansion tank and a 9 psi rad. cap to the system (to support the expansion tank). Comments?? Gord edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Thanks Roger. > Why I asked about the air lock is because there could be a high > point in the system if the feed into the back of the skeg is higher > than the pipe to it from the engine or if the back of the skeg is > higher than the pipe into it, which appears to be the case in the > drawings for the BS36. Might this air space act as an expansion > tank? If not auto engines often have plastic expansion tanks, which > I guess would suit. Does anyone Know the capacity of the skeg on a > BS36? > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7392|7392|2005-03-30 06:31:27|sae140|a KISS RO water-maker ?|I did some elementary research on RO water-makers last year, and although the ol' memory isn't all that it was, I seem to remember that there were several grades of membrane on offer, but only a few were suitable for extracting fresh water from brine, and even then a 2-pass process was recommended. The price of these things was extremely high. There was also mention made of the need to produce a little more than you actually need, as some 'best quality' fresh is used to flush through the system after a batch is made. There were some membrane filters about 3" diameter and 4 ft long, which I thought would be ideal in a yacht setting. Having seen the layout of one working system which lay in a boat's bilges with a rat's nest of pipes and valves, I imagine making a much simpler vertical batch system construction, with the membrane housed in a simple s/s pipe located to the side of the companion-way or any other convenient place where a vertical 4ft tube could be secured. To avoid through-hulls and valves and so forth, it would then be a simple matter to dredge a bucketful of seawater (or use a portable bilge pump) and fill a 'header tank' (somewhat misnamed, as it would be at cabin sole level) which would be connected via a pipe to the outer top of the membrane tube. High pressure would then be applied to the 'header tank' and fresh water (pass 1) would result from the bottom (inner) outlet under gravity, to be stored in a convenient container. Only 50% of the header tank's contents would be used, the rest would be discarded. Depending on the quality required, a second pass could be made, with the 'first-grade' quality being used for drinking, the residual used for cooking/ washing. After use, the system would be flushed through with pure water, and the filter membrane then removed and stored in the recommended preservative. Clearly this would be a fair-weather batch system, making perhaps a hundred gallons or so at the one sitting. Anything obvious I've missed ? Dunno how this compares with Brent's published system - which I'd love to see details of, but can't bring myself to buy another book just for one new page. Colin (my first attempt at posting via email - 'cause I can't stand the group's webpage any more - do hope it gets through ...). Nahhhh - it bounced. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 27/03/05| 7393|7345|2005-03-30 08:41:21|kendall|Re: Watermakers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the > air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates > heat and h2o...? please explain. > H. > Not sure if it's how they do it, but some studies have shown that injecting small amounts of water into the combustion cycle produce more power because of the water flashing into steam, it also reduces exhaust temps the ratio used is normally quite a bit less than the 3:1 indicated ken.| 7394|7345|2005-03-30 09:34:38|jim dorey|Re: Watermakers|On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:37:43 -0000, kendall wrote: > Not sure if it's how they do it, but some studies have shown that > injecting small amounts of water into the combustion cycle produce > more power because of the water flashing into steam, it also reduces > exhaust temps > the ratio used is normally quite a bit less than the 3:1 indicated > > > ken. yeh, and supposedly there's people injecting water as a mist will lower the air temp, which causes more air to get in, similar to a turbo/supercharger, increasing efficiency. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7395|7345|2005-03-30 09:45:10|denis buggy|Re: Watermakers|dear h on this green and misty island the moisture content in the many cubic feet of air needed to burn 1 gal of fuel is 3 gals . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:15 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in the air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates heat and h2o...? please explain. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: 29 March, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > 33% is accurate the famous scania dsc 11 litre engine had an ad stating > it was awarded the most fuel efficient engine in the world per bhp/fuel > however you were shocked to find 37% was it , the new fiat truck engines > have a turbo down the pipe from the main engine turbo , this secondary > turbo is connected by gears to the flywheel gear and fiat states it can > recover 11% of power from the exhaust pipe . some apartment blocks in > Italy are heated and powered by a single car engine in a thermal box > which extracts the maximum energy available from a gallon of petrol and > while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in > the air supplied to the engine . Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: racer577@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:13 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > From my memory it is about 33% of the energy is used to turn the crank, > 33% goes to cooling, and 33% goes out the exhaust. > > John > > > I am interested in the thermal efficiency of ic engines. I'm like you, > > having read it a long time ago I cant remember where or what it was but > it > > was bad. Barring a google search,.. probably would be a government site > > for > > that information? > > Cheers, > > H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > >seeratlas@...@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7396|7345|2005-03-30 10:53:16|Henri Naths|Re: Watermakers|Thanks Denis, I was a little concerned about the term "consumed." The moisture content would just past thru the engine. As previously stated more h20 is "created" when a hydrocarbon is oxidized.The H2O is never consumed. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: 30 March, 2005 7:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > dear h on this green and misty island the moisture content in the many > cubic feet of air needed to burn 1 gal of fuel is 3 gals . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Henri Naths > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:15 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in > the > air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons creates > heat and h2o...? please explain. > H. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "denis buggy" > To: > Sent: 29 March, 2005 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > > > > 33% is accurate the famous scania dsc 11 litre engine had an ad > stating > > it was awarded the most fuel efficient engine in the world per > bhp/fuel > > however you were shocked to find 37% was it , the new fiat truck > engines > > have a turbo down the pipe from the main engine turbo , this secondary > > turbo is connected by gears to the flywheel gear and fiat states it can > > recover 11% of power from the exhaust pipe . some apartment blocks in > > Italy are heated and powered by a single car engine in a thermal box > > which extracts the maximum energy available from a gallon of petrol and > > while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed in > > the air supplied to the engine . Denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: racer577@... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > > > > From my memory it is about 33% of the energy is used to turn the > crank, > > 33% goes to cooling, and 33% goes out the exhaust. > > > > John > > > > > I am interested in the thermal efficiency of ic engines. I'm like > you, > > > having read it a long time ago I cant remember where or what it was > but > > it > > > was bad. Barring a google search,.. probably would be a government > site > > > for > > > that information? > > > Cheers, > > > H. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "seeratlas" > > > >seeratlas@...@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7397|7345|2005-03-30 13:27:32|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Watermakers|A slightly related fact is that the pre-turbofan B-52's consumed 2000lbs of water injection on takeoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim dorey" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:37:43 -0000, kendall wrote: > > > Not sure if it's how they do it, but some studies have shown that > > injecting small amounts of water into the combustion cycle produce > > more power because of the water flashing into steam, it also reduces > > exhaust temps > > the ratio used is normally quite a bit less than the 3:1 indicated > > > > > > ken. > > yeh, and supposedly there's people injecting water as a mist will lower > the air temp, which causes more air to get in, similar to a > turbo/supercharger, increasing efficiency. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 3/30/05 > > | 7398|7345|2005-03-30 13:52:16|Carl Di Stefano|Re: Watermakers|I'm just a lurker but I was in the US Navy back in the 60's. There were a lot of W.W.II ships in the fleet then and I was mostly familiar with Destroyers. Every one I knew or heard about had frequent breakdowns with their watermakers. I believe they were all some form of distiller. As someone else has mentioned, the corrosiveness of hot seawater is incredible and makes such systems very unreliable as they age. ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > Gary, > I spent a half hour or so at the last Seattle Boat Show talking to one > of the engineers from one fo the leading boat RO companies. The normal > sales guy had gone for lunch and this engineer just happened to be > there. This company also makes backpack motor driven units for the > Armed Forces. They use a titanium pump, and his description of the > maintenance on the system for a couple days on, couple of weeks off > scenario was not very encouraging, especially when he mentioned that > the membrane costs were in the several hundred dollar range. > I should have taken notes, but I believe he quoted me something around > 4k$ US for a system that would do what I want to do, which is to be > able to take frequent long hot showers :) heheh. > > He was not encouraging on the actual longevity of a membrane under > yacht conditions, and if I remember correctly, these relatively small > membranes were something like 200.00 US each. > > I think i understand that to et a truly efficient distallion system, > the multiple tanks, lowered pressure, or perhaps vapor pump thing is > employed in commercial units, but seems to me that's because the > efficiency is measured on a dedicated use of fuel/energy per gallon of > distallate produced. The exhaust on my boat motor is going out the > bottom of the hull whether I use it to boil water or not, so that more > complication to achieve competitive 'efficiency' argument pretty much > goes out the window in my case. I'm looking to figure how much water I > have to boil in an exhaust driven boiler to receive a given amount of > distilled water on the other end during a several hour long > 'motorsailing' session. From there I can extrapolate out to decide if > it makes any sense. > > As for corrosion, i hear you but if we have all these wet exhausts > running around I would think that the requisite material specs have > long since been determined :)Assuming someone has built successful wet > exhausts for these thousand horse monster turbo diesels...my little > dry exhaust pipes running thru a barrel of seawater shouldn't be too > tough to build. > > I havn't given up on RO , but if there's a simple way of doing > distillation, I think I'd prefer that way. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > There are some very good reasons why RO is rapidly replacing > distillation, > > even when you have lots of free energy available. First off is that RO > > systems are incredibly simple. It's like modern solidstate > electronics. > > The 'magic' is in the chips, and the whole circuit you see is > incredibly > > simple compared to the same circuitry done as discrete components. You > > think you've got corrosion problems with your hull and rigging, you > ain't > > seen nothing until you try saltwater at elevated temperatures! The > energy > > savings are very large too. Distallation can actually get quite > close to RO > > in efficiency. But it is not even close in a simple system. To get > high > > efficiencies you've got to use vacuum, heat the incoming water with the > > outgoing water etc. That takes lots of additional equipment and makes > > things much more complex. In a large system like you would find on > a big > > ship it can work very well. However, even there RO is winning. > > > > The RO I installed last year is 9 feet long, 3 feet wide, and 6 feet > tall, > > excluding the 10 inch diameter x 20 foot long RO housing. That > space does > > include the wash tank and wash pump though and a spare high pressure > pump > > and motor as well. So it would actually fit in the hull of a 36' > sailboat, > > and you could still walk around it. It requires 30 Hp to run, so > the engine > > in your boat could run it. It will produce 25 gpm, or 36,000 > gallons per > > day! So you could raft up with your typical 800 foot cruise ship > and supply > > just about all their water needs each day! > > > > I will draw up a P&I (Process & Instrumentation) drawing for simple > system > > for a boat so you can see how simple it really is. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 3/30/05 > > | 7399|7345|2005-03-30 14:06:16|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|Ken, In the 'old' days, I once built a dual turbo'd american v-8 in which we did just that. Was the only way we could stop the detonation with the power we were making (well that and backing off on the compression ratio because of the turbo's). Didn't get much gas mileage, BUT, heheh I could smoke a Ferrari Boxer :)to at least 150mph on the 405 at 3am :) at least in a relatively straight line LOL. Past that the aerodynamics, or lack thereof, on my car made the front end a bit light for any substantial manuevering. Name of the club was the "Banzai Runners". seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > > (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed > in the > > air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons > creates > > heat and h2o...? please explain. > > H. > > > > Not sure if it's how they do it, but some studies have shown that > injecting small amounts of water into the combustion cycle produce > more power because of the water flashing into steam, it also reduces > exhaust temps > the ratio used is normally quite a bit less than the 3:1 indicated > > > ken. | 7400|7345|2005-03-30 14:57:00|Carl Di Stefano|Watermakers|While I'm on this run of water related semi-useless memories here's another: The W.W.II Fleet subs made most if not all of their fresh water with their A/C's which ran most of the time. (Not a crew comfort operation as much as an anti condensation effort (hard on equipment)). The crews referred to the water so produced as "condensed farts". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7401|7345|2005-03-30 16:04:58|brentswain38|Re: Watermakers|The 540 gallon a day(22 gph) membranes are around $250 US wholesale, $600 US retail, so a whole sale source is well worth chasing down. It doesn't make sense to go for a smaller membrane as it would take too long to make enough to flush it properly , and the larger system just means running your engine for shorter periods of time.It certainly doesn't make sense to pay more for a smaller system. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > There are some very good reasons why RO is rapidly replacing distillation, > even when you have lots of free energy available. First off is that RO > systems are incredibly simple. It's like modern solidstate electronics. > The 'magic' is in the chips, and the whole circuit you see is incredibly > simple compared to the same circuitry done as discrete components. You > think you've got corrosion problems with your hull and rigging, you ain't > seen nothing until you try saltwater at elevated temperatures! The energy > savings are very large too. Distallation can actually get quite close to RO > in efficiency. But it is not even close in a simple system. To get high > efficiencies you've got to use vacuum, heat the incoming water with the > outgoing water etc. That takes lots of additional equipment and makes > things much more complex. In a large system like you would find on a big > ship it can work very well. However, even there RO is winning. > > The RO I installed last year is 9 feet long, 3 feet wide, and 6 feet tall, > excluding the 10 inch diameter x 20 foot long RO housing. That space does > include the wash tank and wash pump though and a spare high pressure pump > and motor as well. So it would actually fit in the hull of a 36' sailboat, > and you could still walk around it. It requires 30 Hp to run, so the engine > in your boat could run it. It will produce 25 gpm, or 36,000 gallons per > day! So you could raft up with your typical 800 foot cruise ship and supply > just about all their water needs each day! > > I will draw up a P&I (Process & Instrumentation) drawing for simple system > for a boat so you can see how simple it really is. > > Gary H. Lucas | 7402|7345|2005-03-30 16:09:38|Henri Naths|Re: Watermakers|Couldn't really condense that and drink it.lol. Has any body ever put a fuel cell in a boat for electrical power , propulsion and hot water by product? H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: 30 March, 2005 12:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > Ken, > In the 'old' days, I once built a dual turbo'd american v-8 in which > we did just that. Was the only way we could stop the detonation with > the power we were making (well that and backing off on the compression > ratio because of the turbo's). Didn't get much gas mileage, BUT, > heheh I could smoke a Ferrari Boxer :)to at least 150mph on the 405 at > 3am :) at least in a relatively straight line LOL. Past that the > aerodynamics, or lack thereof, on my car made the front end a bit > light for any substantial manuevering. Name of the club was the > "Banzai Runners". > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: >> > (while burning the gallon of fuel 3 gallons of water are consumed >> in the >> > air supplied to the engine . )? ...the oxidation of hydrocarbons >> creates >> > heat and h2o...? please explain. >> > H. >> > >> >> Not sure if it's how they do it, but some studies have shown that >> injecting small amounts of water into the combustion cycle produce >> more power because of the water flashing into steam, it also reduces >> exhaust temps >> the ratio used is normally quite a bit less than the 3:1 indicated >> >> >> ken. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7403|7403|2005-03-30 16:11:31|brentswain38|voltage alarm|I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on how it works out. As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing Brent| 7404|7392|2005-03-30 16:14:24|brentswain38|Re: a KISS RO water-maker ?|The one Wolf has been using is far simpler than that and it's worked well since 1998 while he was cruising the South Pacific.Just check wolfwatermakers.com. The latest edition of my book describes it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I did some elementary research on RO water-makers last year, and > although the ol' memory isn't all that it was, I seem to remember > that there were several grades of membrane on offer, but only a few > were suitable for extracting fresh water from brine, and even then a > 2-pass process was recommended. The price of these things was > extremely high. There was also mention made of the need to produce a > little more than you actually need, as some 'best quality' fresh is > used to flush through the system after a batch is made. There were > some membrane filters about 3" diameter and 4 ft long, which I > thought would be ideal in a yacht setting. > Having seen the layout of one working system which lay in a boat's > bilges with a rat's nest of pipes and valves, I imagine making a much > simpler vertical batch system construction, with the membrane housed > in a simple s/s pipe located to the side of the companion-way or any > other convenient place where a vertical 4ft tube could be secured. > To avoid through-hulls and valves and so forth, it would then be a > simple matter to dredge a bucketful of seawater (or use a portable > bilge pump) and fill a 'header tank' (somewhat misnamed, as it would > be at cabin sole level) which would be connected via a pipe to the > outer top of the membrane tube. > High pressure would then be applied to the 'header tank' and fresh > water (pass 1) would result from the bottom (inner) outlet under > gravity, to be stored in a convenient container. Only 50% of the > header tank's contents would be used, the rest would be discarded. > Depending on the quality required, a second pass could be made, with > the 'first-grade' quality being used for drinking, the residual used > for cooking/ washing. > After use, the system would be flushed through with pure water, and > the filter membrane then removed and stored in the recommended > preservative. > Clearly this would be a fair-weather batch system, making perhaps a > hundred gallons or so at the one sitting. > Anything obvious I've missed ? > Dunno how this compares with Brent's published system - which I'd > love to see details of, but can't bring myself to buy another book > just for one new page. > > Colin > (my first attempt at posting via email - 'cause I can't stand the > group's webpage any more - do hope it gets through ...). > > Nahhhh - it bounced. > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.8.4 - Release Date: 27/03/05 | 7405|7345|2005-03-30 19:42:26|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Watermakers|Hmm, I going to have to see what we pay for membranes. I went to the wolf watermakers site. I am not used to those ittybitty membranes! It's funny, when you look at all those pieces lying there it looks complicated. When you look at the Process & Instrumentation drawing it is much easier to understand. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers > > > The 540 gallon a day(22 gph) membranes are around $250 US wholesale, > $600 US retail, so a whole sale source is well worth chasing down. > It doesn't make sense to go for a smaller membrane as it would take > too long to make enough to flush it properly , and the larger system > just means running your engine for shorter periods of time.It > certainly doesn't make sense to pay more for a smaller system. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> There are some very good reasons why RO is rapidly replacing > distillation, >> even when you have lots of free energy available. First off is > that RO >> systems are incredibly simple. It's like modern solidstate > electronics. >> The 'magic' is in the chips, and the whole circuit you see is > incredibly >> simple compared to the same circuitry done as discrete components. > You >> think you've got corrosion problems with your hull and rigging, you > ain't >> seen nothing until you try saltwater at elevated temperatures! The > energy >> savings are very large too. Distallation can actually get quite > close to RO >> in efficiency. But it is not even close in a simple system. To > get high >> efficiencies you've got to use vacuum, heat the incoming water with > the >> outgoing water etc. That takes lots of additional equipment and > makes >> things much more complex. In a large system like you would find on > a big >> ship it can work very well. However, even there RO is winning. >> >> The RO I installed last year is 9 feet long, 3 feet wide, and 6 > feet tall, >> excluding the 10 inch diameter x 20 foot long RO housing. That > space does >> include the wash tank and wash pump though and a spare high > pressure pump >> and motor as well. So it would actually fit in the hull of a 36' > sailboat, >> and you could still walk around it. It requires 30 Hp to run, so > the engine >> in your boat could run it. It will produce 25 gpm, or 36,000 > gallons per >> day! So you could raft up with your typical 800 foot cruise ship > and supply >> just about all their water needs each day! >> >> I will draw up a P&I (Process & Instrumentation) drawing for > simple system >> for a boat so you can see how simple it really is. >> >> Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7406|7345|2005-03-30 20:07:10|jnikadie|Re: Watermakers|Check out: http://www.wateranywhere.com/Item/2SWAMI.htm 2.5" membranes in three lengths ... ignore the baby 14" one and you're left with: - 21" 300 GPD at US$147 (same price as the 14" one) - 40" 700 GPD at US$189 (this is the same size as the 540 GPD units...?) Both are rated at 99.4% salt rejection and are described as seawater RO membranes. The same site also has 4" units that are rated at 99.8% salt rejection. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > The 540 gallon a day(22 gph) membranes are around $250 US wholesale, > $600 US retail, so a whole sale source is well worth chasing down. > It doesn't make sense to go for a smaller membrane as it would take > too long to make enough to flush it properly , and the larger system > just means running your engine for shorter periods of time.It > certainly doesn't make sense to pay more for a smaller system. > Brent > | 7407|7345|2005-03-30 20:08:28|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Watermakers|What a great bunch of information about using engine heat to make fresh water. However, to make usable quantities for a sailboat it still sounds like a wet dream. One might consider not insulating the inside of the boat and using a giant maxi pad to recover the condensation. I really think you would recover about the same amount of usable water as using the heat from a small engine? Gerald| 7408|7345|2005-03-30 20:19:17|jnikadie|Watermakers - back on the topic of pumps|I know Brent favours the TT9111 pump ... 3GPM, ceramic plungers ... Check out http://www.pressure-washer-parts.com/ ... search for TT9111 A datasheet can be found at http://www.pressure-washer-parts.com/moreinfo/tser51-tri-ss.pdf?id=3231 I note that the datasheet lists an "oil-bath crankcase" as a feature ... do we need to worry about oil getting into the chambers and being forced into the membrane (which would not be good for it)? Based on the "used once a week since '98 without a problem" I'd guess not ... Is this other pump another option?: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4364440518&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Same 3GPM ... but stainless plungers ... perhaps leading to a greater risk of oil getting into the water?| 7409|7345|2005-03-30 21:04:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Watermakers - back on the topic of pumps|You might also take a look at a Wanner Engineering Hydrocell pump. It is a diaphragm pump not a plunger pump so it has no sliding seals to leak. I bought a 25 hp one recently because Cat pumps said they wouldn't warrantee their pumps for use with acid at a pH of 1. I also needed to run the pump from a variable speed inverter drive and the Cat pump needed three different vibration dampeners at $1100 each. The clincher was that the Wanner pump was $7,000 vs $11,000 for the Cat pump. I also felt better about the people I was dealing with because the Wanner people correctly identified the fact that a 20 hp motor would not have adequate torque at the lower speeds, and Cat missed that completely. The system hasn't shipped yet, it's going to Australia, so I can't give you real world long term data. However the pump is beautifully made. Gary H. Lucas| 7410|7403|2005-03-30 23:44:50|jim dorey|Re: voltage alarm|On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:09:42 -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > how it works out. > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > Brent most would switch the power input to a large resistive load instead of turning off, turning off an alternator is different, apparently, from a regular motor, turn it off and it will spin out of control when wind is high. http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html for general info, n stuff http://www.absak.com/basic/wind-power.html the diversion section for a why http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/20/0406/27488 for a how -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7411|7403|2005-03-31 00:01:45|jnikadie|Re: voltage alarm|What kind of current are we talking about? If the current is not too high, perhaps a better solution would be a linear voltage regulator just before the battery ... burn off the excess voltage while still providing power to charge the batteries. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > how it works out. > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > Brent | 7412|7403|2005-03-31 03:27:12|denis buggy|Re: voltage alarm|dear Brent check out windside on the web it is a finnish idea which is expensive however I believe this system does not overspeed and you have a alternative method if you attach weights to a propeller adjustable hub it will act like a governor on a injector pump and will increase the force of push or pull as the wind speed increases and this principle has been used to turn the blades flat to the wind until they stabilise and return to your desired speed in other words use a prop which has a built in governor and your electrics will look after itself . and on another topic re water in ic engines the only reason I was familiar with water use is that we are forced in Ireland to support a oil refinery from hell which makes a disgusting blend of acids and magic spells otherwise known as Irish diesel which will rot your engines as a high sulphur content will combine with water and form sulphuric acid and you listen to people in other lands getting over a million miles from a well built engine and you get 500.000/600.000 and the bills however there is worse available "washed diesel" which is subsidised agricultural red diesel which has a acid added to burn off the red dye and make it saleable to the gullible public who never know why they must pay 2000/3000 euros for new injector pumps and injectors if you are buying diesel in Europe take care. Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: jnikadie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 6:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm What kind of current are we talking about? If the current is not too high, perhaps a better solution would be a linear voltage regulator just before the battery ... burn off the excess voltage while still providing power to charge the batteries. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > how it works out. > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > Brent To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7413|7345|2005-03-31 05:48:30|T & D CAIN|Re: Watermakers|P&I Ds? Now you're talking my language Gary. I could make music from Foxboro, Bailey, Honeywell ( well maybe not that one) Yokogawa, Kent, Fisher & Porter, Wallace & Tiernan, Toshiba, Siemens, Leeds & Northrup, International Combustion (ICAL), and the list goes on ---- Those were the days my friend --- I thought they'd never end (etc. etc.). The analog logic diagrams of the process are a great way to gain the understanding. Back to watermakers: The cheaper lines here, in what we call, 'Pressure cleaners' seem to be patterned on the original Italian design of 3 cylinders run from a swashplate and driven at around 2850 RPM. The "eco friendly" variety are down to 5 or less litres per minute at around 100 to 150 bar.., and being essentially positive displacement pumps, the RPM governs the flow rate and the nozzle diameter controls the pressure if the valves are up to it. Do you think these could stand higher RPM and be useful in small scale RO applications?. I have looked at the input side, and the conversion to multi-vee belt drive is not easy but quite possible. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:12 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Watermakers| 7414|7403|2005-03-31 11:19:22|Henri Naths|Re: voltage alarm|Thanks, good insight, I will refer you to this site for al your Diesel needs. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: 31 March, 2005 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > dear Brent check out windside on the web it is a finnish idea which is > expensive however I believe this system does not overspeed and you have a > alternative method if you attach weights to a propeller adjustable hub > it will act like a governor on a injector pump and will increase the force > of push or pull as the wind speed increases and this principle has been > used to turn the blades flat to the wind until they stabilise and return > to your desired speed in other words use a prop which has a built in > governor and your electrics will look after itself . and on another topic > re water in ic engines the only reason I was familiar with water use is > that we are forced in Ireland to support a oil refinery from hell which > makes a disgusting blend of acids and magic spells otherwise known as > Irish diesel which will rot your engines as a high sulphur content will > combine with water and form sulphuric acid and you listen to people in > other lands getting over a million miles from a well built engine and you > get 500.000/600.000 and the bills however there is worse available > "washed diesel" which is subsidised agricultural red diesel which has a > acid added to burn off the red dye and make it saleable to the gullible > public who never know why they must pay 2000/3000 euros for new injector > pumps and injectors if you are buying diesel in Europe take care. Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jnikadie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 6:01 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > > > What kind of current are we talking about? > > If the current is not too high, perhaps a better solution would be a > linear voltage regulator just before the battery ... burn off the > excess voltage while still providing power to charge the batteries. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > > how it works out. > > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > > Brent > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7415|7345|2005-03-31 11:53:06|kendall|Re: Watermakers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ken, > In the 'old' days, I once built a dual turbo'd american v-8 in which > we did just that. Was the only way we could stop the detonation with > the power we were making (well that and backing off on the compression > ratio because of the turbo's). Didn't get much gas mileage, BUT, > heheh I could smoke a Ferrari Boxer :)to at least 150mph on the 405 at > 3am :) at least in a relatively straight line LOL. Past that the > aerodynamics, or lack thereof, on my car made the front end a bit > light for any substantial manuevering. Name of the club was the > "Banzai Runners". > > seer > I had a turbo 2300 installed in a bronco2 for a few years, great on-road, but too high geared to take advantage of the turbo's power band off road. I've used water injection in a few cars, compensates for 'bad' gas, lets you run a bit more advance, which helps you pull more power from the engine, use alchohol/water mix in the winter. A friend had an old v8 power boat that would never run exactly right, I hooked up a water injection system on it, and he was able to push it as hard as he wanted with no problems. ken.| 7418|7345|2005-03-31 12:51:05|seeratlas|Re: Watermakers|Kept the valves, pistons, rings and combustion chambers amazingly clean tho from time to time we got some pretty unusual looking deposits on the spark plugs. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ken, > > In the 'old' days, I once built a dual turbo'd american v-8 in which > > we did just that. Was the only way we could stop the detonation with > > the power we were making (well that and backing off on the compression > > ratio because of the turbo's). Didn't get much gas mileage, BUT, > > heheh I could smoke a Ferrari Boxer :)to at least 150mph on the 405 at > > 3am :) at least in a relatively straight line LOL. Past that the > > aerodynamics, or lack thereof, on my car made the front end a bit > > light for any substantial manuevering. Name of the club was the > > "Banzai Runners". > > > > seer > > > > I had a turbo 2300 installed in a bronco2 for a few years, great > on-road, but too high geared to take advantage of the turbo's power > band off road. > > I've used water injection in a few cars, compensates for 'bad' gas, > lets you run a bit more advance, which helps you pull more power from > the engine, use alchohol/water mix in the winter. > > A friend had an old v8 power boat that would never run exactly right, > I hooked up a water injection system on it, and he was able to push it > as hard as he wanted with no problems. > > ken. | 7419|7403|2005-03-31 19:13:30|brentswain38|Re: voltage alarm|By turning it of, I mean turning the blades sideways to the wind until they stop, then putting a small S hook on a line, in a small hole in the end of the blade. I'm thinking of a voltage alarm in order to keep it simple. I'm aware of far more complex ways of doing it, but am trying to avoid them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:09:42 -0000, brentswain38 > wrote: > > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > > how it works out. > > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > > Brent > > most would switch the power input to a large resistive load instead of > turning off, turning off an alternator is different, apparently, from a > regular motor, turn it off and it will spin out of control when wind is > high. > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html for general info, n stuff > http://www.absak.com/basic/wind-power.html the diversion section for a why > http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/20/0406/27488 for a how > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7420|7420|2005-03-31 19:19:04|brentswain38|alternators|What happens to an alternator if I unplug the three wires comming out of the windings while it is spinning, and the field is active . Do I fry something? Brent| 7421|7345|2005-03-31 22:25:11|john kupris|Re: Watermakers|jim dorey wrote: Hi Jim, I used to inject water into a Chrysler v-8. All you do is connect a source of vacum with a hose from the carb or intake manifold to a bubler , as used in a fish aquarium, this is just a cement looking thing about a inch long and can intoduce bubbles into a fish tank. The bubler stone is put into a quart of water and the vacuum pulls water into the intake system. the steam cleans carbon off of the heads and the steam is incompessable so it boosts horsepower. You can adjust it somewhat with a valve that regulates the vaccum. John On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:37:43 -0000, kendall wrote: > Not sure if it's how they do it, but some studies have shown that > injecting small amounts of water into the combustion cycle produce > more power because of the water flashing into steam, it also reduces > exhaust temps > the ratio used is normally quite a bit less than the 3:1 indicated > > > ken. yeh, and supposedly there's people injecting water as a mist will lower the air temp, which causes more air to get in, similar to a turbo/supercharger, increasing efficiency. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7422|7403|2005-03-31 22:25:11|jnikadie|Re: voltage alarm - more complex|use a comparator to compare the voltage at the junction of a voltage divider with a reference voltage ... if the voltage divider is higher, sound the buzzer a voltage divider is simply two resistors in series ... attach the positive input of the comparator to the juction of the two resistors, easy! the reference voltage is pretty easy too ... a resistor and a zener diode is normally used ... connect the junction of these two to the negative terminal of the comparator now hook power and ground up to the comparator and a buzzer (probably driven via a transistor) to the output ... done! when it's "off" it's "off", when it's "on" it's "on" current flowing though all components is easily determined, no need to worry about cooking anything if there's interest in such a circuit I'll design it and post it in the files section --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > By turning it of, I mean turning the blades sideways to the wind > until they stop, then putting a small S hook on a line, in a small > hole in the end of the blade. I'm thinking of a voltage alarm in > order to keep it simple. I'm aware of far more complex ways of doing > it, but am trying to avoid them. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:09:42 -0000, brentswain38 > > wrote: > > > > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt > permanment > > > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core > windings, > > > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you > posted on > > > how it works out. > > > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very > hard to > > > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an > alarm > > > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when > the > > > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for > those > > > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could > go a > > > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from > overcharing > > > Brent > > > > most would switch the power input to a large resistive load instead > of > > turning off, turning off an alternator is different, apparently, > from a > > regular motor, turn it off and it will spin out of control when > wind is > > high. > > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html for general info, n > stuff > > http://www.absak.com/basic/wind-power.html the diversion section > for a why > > http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/20/0406/27488 for a how > > > > > > -- > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7423|7403|2005-03-31 22:25:11|jnikadie|Re: voltage alarm - simple (with problems)|perhaps you'll consider a very simple circuit consisting of a buzzer and a zener diode ... not ideal, but here's my thoughts on how this would work: A zener diode acts like a normal diode when current runs though it in the forward direction. They're normally used backwards though ... they effectively stop current flowing in the reverse direction (as a regular diode does), but once the zener's rated voltage is exceeded current will flow. So, if you've got a buzzer that creates a large enough sound at, say 8V, connect the negtive wire to the negative of the battery being charged and the positive to the anode of the zener ... the cathode connects to the positive terminal of the battery (for current to flow through the zener it needs to flow from cathode to anode ... backwards). Using a 7.5V zener for the task, if less than 15.5V is across the battery the voltage across the buzzer will be less than 8V ... the buzzer won't sound ... once the voltage builds the buzzer will start to make noise, with the volume increasing as the voltage climbs. Now, why isn't this ideal? Three reasons: 1. It's not "on" or "off" .. it's "off" until the voltage hits a threshold and then it's "kind of on" ... some tweaking with various zeners can work around this to find a suitable compromise 2. The zener will be dropping 7.5V all the time ... if the buzzer doesn't resist current flow very well you have two problems ... the loss of energy from your charging circuit (and/or battery!) and potential overheating of the zener ... experimentation will tell how much of a problem this is. 3. When the threshold is exceeded current will start flowing through the zener ... as the voltage climbs so will the current ... as mentioned above, the zener is dropping 7.5V ... that gets turned into heat ... potentially killing the zener diode --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > By turning it of, I mean turning the blades sideways to the wind > until they stop, then putting a small S hook on a line, in a small > hole in the end of the blade. I'm thinking of a voltage alarm in > order to keep it simple. I'm aware of far more complex ways of doing > it, but am trying to avoid them. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:09:42 -0000, brentswain38 > > wrote: > > > > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt > permanment > > > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core > windings, > > > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you > posted on > > > how it works out. > > > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very > hard to > > > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an > alarm > > > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when > the > > > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for > those > > > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could > go a > > > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from > overcharing > > > Brent > > > > most would switch the power input to a large resistive load instead > of > > turning off, turning off an alternator is different, apparently, > from a > > regular motor, turn it off and it will spin out of control when > wind is > > high. > > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html for general info, n > stuff > > http://www.absak.com/basic/wind-power.html the diversion section > for a why > > http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/9/20/0406/27488 for a how > > > > > > -- > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7424|7420|2005-03-31 22:25:12|jnikadie|Re: alternators|Not really my field of interest (which, as far as electronics goes, is more digital ... microcontrollers etc) ... but here's my take on it: 1. you might have a transient problem in the micro seconds after the detachment ... you have (potentially) a large current flowing through a big coil, which I believe will act like an inductor (like the coil on a gas engine) ... you could turn tens of amps at 15v into milli amps at tens of thousands of volts ... ever got a shock when unplugging a sparkplug lead? will this affect anything ... ? I can't say ... if you try to use a light switch to do the "disconnecting", even though it may be rated for the current and voltage involved when the alternator is running normally, my bet is that you'd get a big arc and the contacts in the switch will be welded together 2. once steady-state has been reached I don't believe you'll have a problem ... while you effectively have a wire going through a magnetic field the circuit is incomplete ... the magnetic field will not generate any current in the wire As I said above, not really my field ... I'm happy to be proven wrong here ... I too am interested in what those with more experience have to say on the matter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > What happens to an alternator if I unplug the three wires comming out > of the windings while it is spinning, and the field is active . Do I > fry something? > Brent | 7425|7324|2005-04-02 14:15:30|T & D CAIN|Re: No mail -- no problem?|Test Terry| 7426|7426|2005-04-02 14:15:37|De Clarke|watermaker technology|I've been thinking about watermakers also. the Wolf watermakers seem to me like overkill for a small cruising boat -- costly, fairly large, have to run the engine, etc. I wouldn't mind being able to make only 5 or 10 gal in a day, myself... seems like to run the unit often enough to keep it clean and happy, you'd have go go into the water-lighter business and sell to other boats :-) or just dump the stuff overside which seems a waste. as far as I can tell, solar passive evap is suitable for emergency/survival use only as it produces a tiny trickle of water. gravity feed/low power RO has its appeal http://www.sesltd.com.au/html/waterpure.htm but this system is obviously way too large for a boat. a scaled down version could be imagined though, usable at anchor in sunny weather, where you would haul a pillow tank up the mainmast with a tackle to get the grav feed. I don't know how well this setup would do with sea water though, it is recommended for "brackish" input. the byflow is adequate to rinse the system nicely. then there is the legendary Waterlog http://www.watermakers.ws/ an impeller-driven towed watermaker which the mfrs claim produces from 26 (bottom of the line) to 79 (top) gal per diem. it sounds really good, but requires a tow speed of 4 kts minimum and prefers 5. an optional 12v motor will drive the thing, with considerable battery drain. I remain skeptical about this gizmo. the company claims good support with parts, easy self-maint etc but there are rumours about non-delivery, tardy turnaround in servicing, failure to communicate. maybe it is just a scam? I have also heard that it needs to be presoaked before deployment, and that it produces nothing for the first half hour or so of use... so as usual it is unlikely to be as nifty as the mfr claims. if anyone knows more about these I'd be interested. seems to me if the design worked all that well it would have been sold by now to a bigger manufacturer. too good to be true? burning fuel or wood to power a desal still seems crazy, esp. since the summer should be a time when you can economise on heating costs. and then there are the Katadyn and Pur units, small and relatively cheap, some hand powered (low capacity). I like the idea of emergency hand operation, and a clever sailor should be able to rig a way to pump one of these things using a flopperstopper over the side or at least a treadle mechanism for foot power... are there any other technologies out there, or is that it? de ............................................................................ :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 7427|7420|2005-04-02 14:15:42|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|Most likely nothing at all. The field in your (probable) case is not fed from the stator output, and it will continue to induce flux in the stator. The voltage between each of the "three wires" , if indeed they are the stator winding output connections, will rise dramatically to some very high AC voltage. However, there is little chance that this higher than normal induced voltage will exceed the basic insulation level in the stator which had to withstand about 2000 volts in the production test of the winding without diodes connected. Terry -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Friday, 1 April 2005 09:49 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] alternators What happens to an alternator if I unplug the three wires comming out of the windings while it is spinning, and the field is active . Do I fry something? Brent To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7428|7428|2005-04-03 00:28:54|servo_bot|I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William Atkin design. Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? http://tinyurl.com/5kkao| 7429|7428|2005-04-03 04:56:07|Puck III|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > Atkin design. > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not working for me, (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . Old Ben| 7430|22|2005-04-03 05:04:01|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /miniswail.gif Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : by Krzys Mnich -New Intropic for http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrigamiBoatDesignUsers/ You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/miniswail.gif To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7431|7428|2005-04-03 10:35:11|servo_bot|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|Hi Ben, It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is pl.jpg. The link, which may break, due to its length is: Thanks! Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > > Atkin design. > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not working for me, > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > Old Ben | 7432|7428|2005-04-03 10:40:33|servo_bot|Long URL posting FYI|It appears that placing a long URLs between brackets, like this, , keeps it from getting truncated. I'm sure many of you know this already, but I didn't. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is pl.jpg. > The link, which may break, due to its length is: > > > > Thanks! > > Andy > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > > > Atkin design. > > > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not > working for me, > > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > > Old Ben | 7433|7433|2005-04-03 12:14:40|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|The searchable archive has been updated to current as of 3/5/05 and now contains 7,427 messages. This page features an intelligent search engine and no advertisements. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Please bookmark this site. A link has been placed in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web site if you should forget the link. Regards, --Ken Hooper| 7434|7434|2005-04-03 15:06:09|jericoera|Twin keels a good read|www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/ If you go to the above link, you will be taken to an article about Twin Keels worth reading. Patrick Bray, a naval architect from White Rock BC tank tests various hull forms at UBC and has made some good progress in the understanding and development of modern twin keels. He even goes as far as to say that they will improve vessel performance providing that the shape is correct and that the location is in its ideal place. Too far aft or too far forward changes things significantly. Even if you aren't looking for a racer, not too many people that would be against an extra knot or two of speed. Carl M.| 7435|7403|2005-04-03 15:11:24|jericoera|Re: voltage alarm|Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that your wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple way might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a bit. Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take a voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the drag wheel so that you weren't burning things up. What do you think? Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > how it works out. > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > Brent | 7436|7436|2005-04-03 15:31:31|jericoera|Check out this watermaker-very unconventional|www.watermakers.ws/index.html This is a device that requires no through hulls and produces up to 72 gallons aday of good useable water. This thing takes up precious little space. The only down side I can see is that you could lose it if it wasn't secure to the boat well. Somebody was thinking outside the box when they designed this one! Carl M.| 7437|7428|2005-04-03 15:36:48|Puck III|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|Hi Andy , the PL as seen in files says nothing to me , seeing it on a plan could ring a bell :-) What W Atkin plan are you talking about ? Can you redirect to one on : http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ Just as curious as you , about that PL sign :-) rgds Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is pl.jpg. > The link, which may break, due to its length is: > > > > Thanks! > > Andy > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > > > Atkin design. > > > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not > working for me, > > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > > Old Ben | 7438|7428|2005-04-03 17:34:53|put_to_sea|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|> > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > Tom Colvin's plans show a P-overlapping-a-L symbol followed by a T to indicate plate thickness on his plans. Amos| 7439|7403|2005-04-03 17:59:18|jim dorey|Re: voltage alarm|On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera wrote: > > Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong > with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that your > wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple way > might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten > down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a bit. > Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take a > voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the drag > wheel so that you weren't burning things up. > > What do you think? > > Carl McIntosh half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the other half is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if not from being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries you need to control the power in to keep them from burning up while charging, and from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power going to the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, never a microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill altogether , but for a continuous operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a motor mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect the wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the mill at a pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could put it all inside the generator casing. it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin to produce 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be put on the spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the spindle would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on specs maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first two factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor through a separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin winds, maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on into the dirt so why worry? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7440|7403|2005-04-03 19:13:06|denis buggy|Re: voltage alarm|re all queries re voltage alarms , we have used for decades a great high quality US product for engine alarms , these have a simple gold metal contact which you can set at any setting to alarm you of temp or oil. and they have a voltage sensor with alarm check out " fwmurphy.com" . if your prop hubs are fixed in your generator you could always rig up a simple relay to run a electric water prop every time your batteries get to 14.5 volts or over no energy wasted regardless of wind direction. regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm Thanks, good insight, I will refer you to this site for al your Diesel needs. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: 31 March, 2005 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > dear Brent check out windside on the web it is a finnish idea which is > expensive however I believe this system does not overspeed and you have a > alternative method if you attach weights to a propeller adjustable hub > it will act like a governor on a injector pump and will increase the force > of push or pull as the wind speed increases and this principle has been > used to turn the blades flat to the wind until they stabilise and return > to your desired speed in other words use a prop which has a built in > governor and your electrics will look after itself . and on another topic > re water in ic engines the only reason I was familiar with water use is > that we are forced in Ireland to support a oil refinery from hell which > makes a disgusting blend of acids and magic spells otherwise known as > Irish diesel which will rot your engines as a high sulphur content will > combine with water and form sulphuric acid and you listen to people in > other lands getting over a million miles from a well built engine and you > get 500.000/600.000 and the bills however there is worse available > "washed diesel" which is subsidised agricultural red diesel which has a > acid added to burn off the red dye and make it saleable to the gullible > public who never know why they must pay 2000/3000 euros for new injector > pumps and injectors if you are buying diesel in Europe take care. Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jnikadie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 6:01 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > > > What kind of current are we talking about? > > If the current is not too high, perhaps a better solution would be a > linear voltage regulator just before the battery ... burn off the > excess voltage while still providing power to charge the batteries. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > > how it works out. > > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > > Brent > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7441|7403|2005-04-03 19:14:05|jericoera|Re: voltage alarm|What about just having the turbine hooked up to a gear with a ratio that would only allow max RPMS to not exceed 12 volts of power. Carl --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera wrote: > > > > > Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong > > with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that your > > wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple way > > might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten > > down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a bit. > > Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take a > > voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the drag > > wheel so that you weren't burning things up. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Carl McIntosh > > half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the other half > is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if not from > being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries you need > to control the power in to keep them from burning up while charging, and > from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power going to > the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, never a > microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. > your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill altogether > , but for a continuous > operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a motor > mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect the > wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the mill at a > pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could put it > all inside the generator casing. > it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin to produce > 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be put on the > spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the spindle > would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on specs > maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first two > factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor through a > separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin winds, > maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on into the > dirt so why worry? > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7442|7426|2005-04-03 19:25:46|Gary H. Lucas|Re: watermaker technology|We refer to low pressure RO as 'loose RO' The pores in all membranes are not of consistent size. So all RO membranes allow some salt molecules through. The seawater rated membranes have smaller pores on average, and require higher pressures to operate. So the water you'd get from a low pressure membrane used on seawater would be quite salty, possibly above the level that would be safe for drinking. The Wolf water makers are rated in gallons per 24 hour day. You wouldn't want to run the RO for an actual 24 hours, and the engine the whole time too. So you need an oversized system simply to get the engine run time down to an hour or two at most. Ideally you'd probably want to match the charging time of your batteries if you are using the engine for that. The 12vdc systems DO figure on running most of a 24 hour day. So they use some clever engineering to recover as much energy as possible from the waste water stream. About 90% of the energy put into a single pass RO goes out as waste energy. So these clever tricks help reduce the power usage on a 12 volt system a whole lot. So engine driven systems trade the cheap cost of diesel fuel, a cheap RO cost, and the greatest simplicity, for poor efficiency and more space. The water driven RO is clever, as is the water driven generators that work the same way. The question is, how much time will your cruising boat spend traveling, and how much will be at anchor? I'd bet that the at anchor time is more than 75% of the total time. So I'd think the watermaker would be quite inconvenient. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "De Clarke" To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] watermaker technology > > > > I've been thinking about watermakers also. > > the Wolf watermakers seem to me like overkill for a small > cruising boat -- costly, fairly large, have to run the engine, > etc. I wouldn't mind being able to make only 5 or 10 gal in a > day, myself... seems like to run the unit often enough to > keep it clean and happy, you'd have go go into the water-lighter > business and sell to other boats :-) or just dump the stuff > overside which seems a waste. > > > as far as I can tell, solar passive evap is suitable for > emergency/survival use only as it produces a tiny trickle > of water. > > > gravity feed/low power RO has its appeal > > http://www.sesltd.com.au/html/waterpure.htm > > but this system is obviously way too large for a boat. > a scaled down version could be imagined though, usable > at anchor in sunny weather, where you would haul a pillow > tank up the mainmast with a tackle to get the grav feed. > I don't know how well this setup would do with sea water > though, it is recommended for "brackish" input. the > byflow is adequate to rinse the system nicely. > > > then there is the legendary Waterlog > > http://www.watermakers.ws/ > > an impeller-driven towed watermaker which the mfrs claim > produces from 26 (bottom of the line) to 79 (top) gal per > diem. it sounds really good, but requires a tow speed of > 4 kts minimum and prefers 5. an optional 12v motor will > drive the thing, with considerable battery drain. | 7443|7403|2005-04-03 19:30:55|Gary H. Lucas|Re: voltage alarm|That is counter-productive. Practical wind power is about getting as much energy as you can from as little wind as you can because that is what you have to deal with the most on a boat. You can't just put up a bigger unit in most cases. However you can't just ignore the problem of high winds, because only seconds of high wind could do permanent damage. So that pretty much eliminates all the really simple static solutions. Which means you need some kind of active protection, brakes, dummy load, voltage regulator, whatever. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jericoera" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 7:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > > What about just having the turbine hooked up to a gear with a ratio > that would only allow max RPMS to not exceed 12 volts of power. > > Carl > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: >> On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera > wrote: >> >> > >> > Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong >> > with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that > your >> > wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple > way >> > might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten >> > down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a > bit. >> > Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take > a >> > voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the > drag >> > wheel so that you weren't burning things up. >> > >> > What do you think? >> > >> > Carl McIntosh >> >> half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the > other half >> is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if > not from >> being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries > you need >> to control the power in to keep them from burning up while > charging, and >> from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power > going to >> the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, > never a >> microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. >> your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill > altogether >> , but for a > continuous >> operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a > motor >> mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect > the >> wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the > mill at a >> pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could > put it >> all inside the generator casing. >> it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin > to produce >> 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be > put on the >> spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the > spindle >> would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on > specs >> maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first > two >> factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor > through a >> separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin > winds, >> maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on > into the >> dirt so why worry? >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7444|7403|2005-04-03 19:31:52|Henri Naths|Re: voltage alarm|Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You said there is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built in voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. or am I missing something? Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim dorey" To: Sent: 03 April, 2005 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera wrote: > >> >> Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong >> with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that your >> wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple way >> might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten >> down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a bit. >> Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take a >> voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the drag >> wheel so that you weren't burning things up. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Carl McIntosh > > half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the other half > is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if not from > being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries you need > to control the power in to keep them from burning up while charging, and > from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power going to > the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, never a > microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. > your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill altogether > , but for a continuous > operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a motor > mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect the > wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the mill at a > pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could put it > all inside the generator casing. > it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin to produce > 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be put on the > spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the spindle > would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on specs > maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first two > factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor through a > separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin winds, > maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on into the > dirt so why worry? > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7445|7403|2005-04-03 21:47:13|John Fisher|Re: voltage alarm|Why not just use a 1 wire voltage regulator like they use of dirt bikes. The excess voltage is turned to heat, but a heat sink should cure that. They are about $25 if I remember correctly. they can also be used on AC voltage. John -------Original Message------- From: Gary H. Lucas Date: 04/03/05 17:48:08 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm That is counter-productive. Practical wind power is about getting as much energy as you can from as little wind as you can because that is what you have to deal with the most on a boat. You can't just put up a bigger unit in most cases. However you can't just ignore the problem of high winds, because only seconds of high wind could do permanent damage. So that pretty much eliminates all the really simple static solutions. Which means you need some kind of active protection, brakes, dummy load, voltage regulator, whatever. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jericoera" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 7:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > > What about just having the turbine hooked up to a gear with a ratio > that would only allow max RPMS to not exceed 12 volts of power. > > Carl > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: >> On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera > wrote: >> >> > >> > Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong >> > with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that > your >> > wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple > way >> > might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten >> > down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a > bit. >> > Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take > a >> > voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the > drag >> > wheel so that you weren't burning things up. >> > >> > What do you think? >> > >> > Carl McIntosh >> >> half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the > other half >> is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if > not from >> being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries > you need >> to control the power in to keep them from burning up while > charging, and >> from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power > going to >> the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, > never a >> microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. >> your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill > altogether >> , but for a > continuous >> operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a > motor >> mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect > the >> wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the > mill at a >> pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could > put it >> all inside the generator casing. >> it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin > to produce >> 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be > put on the >> spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the > spindle >> would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on > specs >> maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first > two >> factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor > through a >> separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin > winds, >> maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on > into the >> dirt so why worry? >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7446|7403|2005-04-03 22:07:17|Michael Casling|Re: voltage alarm|The kids used to wreck the tail light doing wheelies and then the head light would blow. The old DT series Yamaha had that problem. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fisher To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm Why not just use a 1 wire voltage regulator like they use of dirt bikes. The excess voltage is turned to heat, but a heat sink should cure that. They are about $25 if I remember correctly. they can also be used on AC voltage. John -------Original Message------- From: Gary H. Lucas Date: 04/03/05 17:48:08 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm That is counter-productive. Practical wind power is about getting as much energy as you can from as little wind as you can because that is what you have to deal with the most on a boat. You can't just put up a bigger unit in most cases. However you can't just ignore the problem of high winds, because only seconds of high wind could do permanent damage. So that pretty much eliminates all the really simple static solutions. Which means you need some kind of active protection, brakes, dummy load, voltage regulator, whatever. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jericoera" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 7:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > > What about just having the turbine hooked up to a gear with a ratio > that would only allow max RPMS to not exceed 12 volts of power. > > Carl > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: >> On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera > wrote: >> >> > >> > Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong >> > with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that > your >> > wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple > way >> > might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten >> > down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a > bit. >> > Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take > a >> > voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the > drag >> > wheel so that you weren't burning things up. >> > >> > What do you think? >> > >> > Carl McIntosh >> >> half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the > other half >> is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if > not from >> being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries > you need >> to control the power in to keep them from burning up while > charging, and >> from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power > going to >> the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, > never a >> microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. >> your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill > altogether >> , but for a > continuous >> operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a > motor >> mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect > the >> wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the > mill at a >> pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could > put it >> all inside the generator casing. >> it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin > to produce >> 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be > put on the >> spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the > spindle >> would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on > specs >> maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first > two >> factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor > through a >> separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin > winds, >> maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on > into the >> dirt so why worry? >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7447|7447|2005-04-04 00:21:41|John Waalkes|watermaker/power generation|Take a look at www.dangerouslaboratories.org it may be possible to use steam generator to charge batteries, capture steam filling water tanks while keeping warm in our northern climes. JW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7448|7403|2005-04-04 01:42:12|jnikadie|Re: voltage alarm - simple auto-furling|This site shows the making of a 17' diameter wind turbine: http://www.otherpower.com/ The photo on the main page shows the turbine in fully-furled mode ... it seems to be a neat system ... the alternator is offset from the yaw bearing, with the tail being offset in the other direction. The tail is set up on a hinge that is on an angle ... in low winds gravity pulls the tail out so that it is perpendicular to the blades (at which point it hits a stop fabricated into the hinge in a very simple way) ... the blades are kept perpendicular to the wind. As the wind builds the weight of the tail is no longer sufficient to keep it hard against that stop ... the tail bends towards the blades. The tail still stays parallel to the wind, but the blades are no longer perpendicular to the tail ... and therefore they are not perpendicular to the wind. The tail hinge has another stop such that the tail can swivel no more than 90 degrees ... thereby keeping the tail out of the blades. It would take a while to get the angle of the tail hinge right for the weight of the tail such that the furling occurs as desired, but no intervention is required during operation. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'm currently building a wind generator using the 12 volt permanment > alternator with ceramic speaker magnets in place of the core windings, > as described in the 12 volt doctor's handbook. I'll keep you posted on > how it works out. > As such a system, similar to the kiss wind generator , is very hard to > regulate, do any of you electronic wizz kids know how to build an alarm > which will give a loud beep, louder than the engine niose , when the > voltage starts to approach 15 volts?This would also be handy for those > using a rheostat to control engine alternator output , and could go a > ong way to eliminating the danger of fried batteries from overcharing > Brent | 7449|7403|2005-04-04 04:18:51|sae140|Re: voltage alarm|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You said there > is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built in > voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. or am I > missing something? > Henri The problem with electronic dynamic over-voltage regulation on a fast- moving device such as a windmill, is that the last thing you would want to do is disconnect the load, or relieve the load by means of a normal (car) alternator regulator. The load is acting partly as a brake, so if overspeeding occurs you need to INCREASE the load, not decrease it. Reducing it would result in higher revs and might even result in the windmill tearing itself to destruction under storm conditions - and the flying debris might just come your way ! The most effective and common way of braking this kind of generator is to short-circuit the output - the problem here however is that the windings and whatever you use to clamp them will need to handle a very large current - which might take them out completely. If you do go down this route, you might want to consider a low value resistor - a couple of ohms - of a few hundred watts capacity. This would act as a modest brake. You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of water containing a large quantity of salt) To keep things simple - it might be wise to either construct a mechanical device to turn the prop out of the wind - or preferably feather the blades. Regards Colin| 7450|7426|2005-04-04 04:20:00|sae140|Re: watermaker technology|There are quite a few small 'survival' RO watermakers on the market, some towed, some even hand-cranked. What makes me suspicious of these is that there is plenty of marketing hype, but no mention of maintenance, replacement parts or other 'real-world' issues. Colin| 7451|7428|2005-04-04 10:42:26|servo_bot|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|Hi Ben, It's the Liza Jane, located here: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html I think, as another poster noted, the symbol means "plate." By this definition, use of the symbol seems redundant on the plans, because in each instance, the symbol appears in a context like, "use 12 ga .110" plate PL." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Andy , the PL as seen in files says nothing to me , > seeing it on a plan could ring a bell :-) > What W Atkin plan are you talking about ? > Can you redirect to one on : http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ > Just as curious as you , about that PL sign :-) > rgds Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is pl.jpg. > > The link, which may break, due to its length is: > > > > > y-dYRfCK18Z0AvmlpycuNLf32LGp0LMrdDwJ9TY9NC6VYpCRdR3X8/pl.jpg> > > > > Thanks! > > > > Andy > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > > > > Atkin design. > > > > > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > > > > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not > > working for me, > > > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > > > Old Ben | 7452|7403|2005-04-04 11:31:39|jim dorey|Re: voltage alarm|On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:31:37 -0600, Henri Naths wrote: > > Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You said > there > is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built in > voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. or am > I > missing something? > Henri not if the only method of regulating the voltage is to use a brake to slow the windmill down. the regulator will take care of most extra voltage, no problem, but the mill can still turn fast enough to cause damage. brent originally said he wanted 15V, i bleve that most car alternators regulate to 13.5, which means he'd have to get a 16V alternator or bypass the regulator, with a new regulator the batteries would be charged at the correct voltage. then another problem, lead acid batteries are not like capacitors, AFAIK charging them after they've reached full charge can cause damage, same for some other kinds. so just keeping the mill at an optimum speed is not enough, the current has to be shunted away from the batteries when full charge is achieved. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7453|7403|2005-04-04 11:35:55|jim dorey|Re: voltage alarm|On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:18:30 -0000, sae140 wrote: > To keep things simple - it might be wise to either construct a > mechanical device to turn the prop out of the wind - or preferably > feather the blades. > > Regards > Colin in an old, old, popular mechanics there was a design for a windmill on a pivot, it would tip back when the wind got too high, it also swivelled. the generator was in a weight box on the bottom of a pole, just below the pivot, with a belt to the turbine pulley. maybe build a pivoting mill that sits on top of the mast, leave it up full time, i'm kidding of course, nobody in their right mind would try it, 'cept maybe me. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7454|7345|2005-04-04 13:43:13|..|Re: Watermakers|Water injection was used on piston engines and aircraft in WW11 and has been used since on jet engines Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- jim dorey wrote: Hi Jim, I used to inject water into a Chrysler v-8. All you do is connect a source of vacum with a hose from the carb or intake manifold --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7455|7333|2005-04-04 15:04:54|gschnell|Re: Metal Prepration|Alex When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the barge industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry uses "black slag", so I did as well. I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always a concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took an imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way over budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on (inside and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but like every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. Gord Alex Christie wrote: > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged the > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white sand > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. In > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air > which > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of primer > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline weld > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but Zinga > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the zinc-rich > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly safe > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against the > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, but > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would avoid > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with the > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on blast > day > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag powder > out > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > chore, > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > Alex > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7456|7403|2005-04-04 15:06:14|brentswain38|Re: voltage alarm|Regulators regulate power to the field. This is impossible with permanent magnets for the field. this is why the kiss generator doesn't bother with regulation, just turn the thing off when you have enough juice.I was thinking of the voltage alarm to warn me when to tie it off.This would work well with a rheostat controled engine alternator, reducing the risk of overcharging with such an arrangement . They enable you to get a much quicker charge than a normal regulator would give, and are much cheaper than the high tech three step regulators. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:31:37 -0600, Henri Naths > wrote: > > > > > Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You said > > there > > is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built in > > voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. or am > > I > > missing something? > > Henri > > not if the only method of regulating the voltage is to use a brake to slow > the windmill down. the regulator will take care of most extra voltage, no > problem, but the mill can still turn fast enough to cause damage. brent > originally said he wanted 15V, i bleve that most car alternators regulate > to 13.5, which means he'd have to get a 16V alternator or bypass the > regulator, with a new regulator the batteries would be charged at the > correct voltage. then another problem, lead acid batteries are not like > capacitors, AFAIK charging them after they've reached full charge can > cause damage, same for some other kinds. so just keeping the mill at an > optimum speed is not enough, the current has to be shunted away from the > batteries when full charge is achieved. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7457|7403|2005-04-04 15:15:03|brentswain38|Re: voltage alarm|Periodically testing things is OK as long as you don't doze of. I'd fear overcharging less if I had a wake up alarm. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:11:09 -0000, jericoera wrote: > > > > > Brent, I am no whiz kid with electronics, but what would be wrong > > with inducing propeller drag through a friction device so that your > > wind generator could never produce more than 12 volts. A simple way > > might be something like a stationary cycle where you just tighten > > down a strap to the desired tension on a pulley to slow 'er up a bit. > > Then you wouldn't need an alarm necessarily. You could just take a > > voltage tester and periodically check things so and tweak the drag > > wheel so that you weren't burning things up. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Carl McIntosh > > half the problem is that the batteries can get overcharged, the other half > is that high winds can cause damage to most kinds of windmill, if not from > being bent over, then from violent fragmentation. for batteries you need > to control the power in to keep them from burning up while charging, and > from being overcharged. if the wind changes the amount of power going to > the batteries will change, so unless one is willing to constantly, never a > microsecond failing, monitor the power output, it won't work. > your suggestion of a brake makes sense for stopping the mill altogether > , but for a continuous > operation mill would just wear the brakes out. one option is a motor > mounted to the mill spindle, a dc motor would probably do, connect the > wires to a negative feedback automatic rheostat. it'd keep the mill at a > pretty precise output level, since it'd be self powered you could put it > all inside the generator casing. > it'd require some calculation, how fast would the mill spin to produce > 15V? using the blades you are how much rotational force will be put on the > spindle by oh-lordy-we're-gonna-die winds? how much force on the spindle > would be needed to turn it against an open circuit motor(based on specs > maybe)? maybe a different motor would be chosen based on the first two > factors. you might also be able to feed current to the motor through a > separate cable, it would prevent overspeed in ragnarok's-a-comin winds, > maybe, but those winds would probably push the pole the mill's on into the > dirt so why worry? > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7458|7333|2005-04-04 15:15:47|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Metal Prepration|In hindsight, would you have rather hired it out? ----- Original Message ----- From: "gschnell" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Metal Prepration > > Alex > When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the barge > industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry uses > "black slag", so I did as well. > I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always a > concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" > (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took an > imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way over > budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on (inside > and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but like > every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. > Gord > > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged the > > > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white sand > > > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. In > > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air > > which > > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I > > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of primer > > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline weld > > > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but Zinga > > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the zinc-rich > > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly safe > > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against the > > > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, but > > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would avoid > > > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with the > > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on blast > > day > > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag powder > > out > > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > > chore, > > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7459|7420|2005-04-04 15:20:10|brentswain38|Re: alternators|Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my diode pack with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm not actually welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > Most likely nothing at all. The field in your (probable) case is not fed > from the stator output, and it will continue to induce flux in the stator. > The voltage between each of the "three wires" , if indeed they are the > stator winding output connections, will rise dramatically to some very high > AC voltage. However, there is little chance that this higher than normal > induced voltage will exceed the basic insulation level in the stator which > had to withstand about 2000 volts in the production test of the winding > without diodes connected. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Friday, 1 April 2005 09:49 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] alternators > > > > What happens to an alternator if I unplug the three wires comming out > of the windings while it is spinning, and the field is active . Do I > fry something? > Brent > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 7460|7426|2005-04-04 15:24:27|brentswain38|Re: watermaker technology|11 gal per day means running the engine for a half hour a day, or 1 1/2 hours every three days plus what you need for flushing , not exactly oversize . A smaller unit would require far more engine running, and would cost far more than the one in my book. What would be the point of looking for a smaller one? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > > I've been thinking about watermakers also. > > the Wolf watermakers seem to me like overkill for a small > cruising boat -- costly, fairly large, have to run the engine, > etc. I wouldn't mind being able to make only 5 or 10 gal in a > day, myself... seems like to run the unit often enough to > keep it clean and happy, you'd have go go into the water-lighter > business and sell to other boats :-) or just dump the stuff > overside which seems a waste. > > > as far as I can tell, solar passive evap is suitable for > emergency/survival use only as it produces a tiny trickle > of water. > > > gravity feed/low power RO has its appeal > > http://www.sesltd.com.au/html/waterpure.htm > > but this system is obviously way too large for a boat. > a scaled down version could be imagined though, usable > at anchor in sunny weather, where you would haul a pillow > tank up the mainmast with a tackle to get the grav feed. > I don't know how well this setup would do with sea water > though, it is recommended for "brackish" input. the > byflow is adequate to rinse the system nicely. > > > then there is the legendary Waterlog > > http://www.watermakers.ws/ > > an impeller-driven towed watermaker which the mfrs claim > produces from 26 (bottom of the line) to 79 (top) gal per > diem. it sounds really good, but requires a tow speed of > 4 kts minimum and prefers 5. an optional 12v motor will > drive the thing, with considerable battery drain. > > I remain skeptical about this gizmo. the company claims > good support with parts, easy self-maint etc but there are > rumours about non-delivery, tardy turnaround in servicing, > failure to communicate. maybe it is just a scam? I have > also heard that it needs to be presoaked before deployment, > and that it produces nothing for the first half hour or > so of use... so as usual it is unlikely to be as nifty > as the mfr claims. > > if anyone knows more about these I'd be interested. seems to > me if the design worked all that well it would have been sold > by now to a bigger manufacturer. too good to be true? > > > burning fuel or wood to power a desal still seems crazy, esp. > since the summer should be a time when you can economise on > heating costs. > > > and then there are the Katadyn and Pur units, small and > relatively cheap, some hand powered (low capacity). I like > the idea of emergency hand operation, and a clever sailor > should be able to rig a way to pump one of these things > using a flopperstopper over the side or at least a treadle > mechanism for foot power... > > > are there any other technologies out there, or is that it? > > > > de > > .................................................................... ........ > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: | 7461|7403|2005-04-04 15:40:07|jim dorey|Re: voltage alarm|On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:03:53 -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > Regulators regulate power to the field. This is impossible with > permanent magnets for the field. this is why the kiss generator > doesn't bother with regulation, just turn the thing off when you have > enough juice.I was thinking of the voltage alarm to warn me when to > tie it off.This would work well with a rheostat controled engine > alternator, reducing the risk of overcharging with such an > arrangement . They enable you to get a much quicker charge than a > normal regulator would give, and are much cheaper than the high tech > three step regulators. > Brent well, ok, a shmidtt trigger after a voltage divider, this to a hand wired solenoid, connected to bell clapper, which hits bell(rip old phone apart?). i haven't found any 15v triggers, so a voltage divider will trigger on a lower voltage that's related to the 15v. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7462|7403|2005-04-04 19:22:32|kendall|Re: voltage alarm|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You said there > is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built in > voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. or am I > missing something? > Henri It would control voltage/current to the batteries, but would do nothing to prevent overrevving the generator, most well designed windturbines will have some means of feathering the blades, using flyweights to turn the blades so they enter the wind less sharply is one. All wind mills should have a brake of some sort, just in case you have to work on it or close to it while the winds blowing. optimally a turbine would have a high angle at low wind speeds to extract the most power from the wind, and turn (using the flyweights or ?) so they have a lower angle meaning the wind has to be running much higher to get them to turn at the same speed. If built right a mill would be just as happy and safe at 10knots as at 50+. ken.| 7463|7428|2005-04-04 21:05:45|Puck III|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|Thanks for sharing your project , when do you start building ? Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > It's the Liza Jane, located here: > > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > I think, as another poster noted, the symbol means "plate." By this > definition, use of the symbol seems redundant on the plans, because in > each instance, the symbol appears in a context like, "use 12 ga .110" > plate PL." > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > Hi Andy , the PL as seen in files says nothing to me , > > seeing it on a plan could ring a bell :-) > > What W Atkin plan are you talking about ? > > Can you redirect to one on : http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ > > Just as curious as you , about that PL sign :-) > > rgds Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is pl.jpg. > > > The link, which may break, due to its length is: > > > > > > > > > y-dYRfCK18Z0AvmlpycuNLf32LGp0LMrdDwJ9TY9NC6VYpCRdR3X8/pl.jpg> > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > > > > > Atkin design. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > > > > > > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not > > > working for me, > > > > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > > > > Old Ben | 7464|7403|2005-04-04 21:17:34|Henri Naths|Re: voltage alarm|Thanks Colin Colin wrote >You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of water containing a large quantity of salt) ..you could make h2 for your fuel cell and hot water.... H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: 04 April, 2005 2:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: >> Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You > said there >> is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built > in >> voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. > or am I >> missing something? >> Henri > > > The problem with electronic dynamic over-voltage regulation on a fast- > moving device such as a windmill, is that the last thing you would > want to do is disconnect the load, or relieve the load by means of a > normal (car) alternator regulator. The load is acting partly as a > brake, so if overspeeding occurs you need to INCREASE the load, not > decrease it. Reducing it would result in higher revs and might even > result in the windmill tearing itself to destruction under storm > conditions - and the flying debris might just come your way ! > The most effective and common way of braking this kind of generator > is to short-circuit the output - the problem here however is that the > windings and whatever you use to clamp them will need to handle a > very large current - which might take them out completely. If you do > go down this route, you might want to consider a low value resistor - > a couple of ohms - of a few hundred watts capacity. This would act > as a modest brake. You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- > resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of > water containing a large quantity of salt) > > To keep things simple - it might be wise to either construct a > mechanical device to turn the prop out of the wind - or preferably > feather the blades. > > Regards > Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7465|7403|2005-04-04 21:30:46|Gary H. Lucas|Re: voltage alarm|When I was a kid I used a water resistor for my carbon arc furnace. I blew quite few fuses before I figured out that the resistance goes down a lot as the water heats up! I finally started heating the water up almost to boiling before I fired up the furnace. Luckily my dad was an electrician, so fuses were easy to come by. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > Thanks Colin > Colin wrote >>You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- > resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of > water containing a large quantity of salt) > > ..you could make h2 for your fuel cell and hot water.... > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sae140" > To: > Sent: 04 April, 2005 2:18 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >> wrote: >>> Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You >> said there >>> is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built >> in >>> voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. >> or am I >>> missing something? >>> Henri >> >> >> The problem with electronic dynamic over-voltage regulation on a fast- >> moving device such as a windmill, is that the last thing you would >> want to do is disconnect the load, or relieve the load by means of a >> normal (car) alternator regulator. The load is acting partly as a >> brake, so if overspeeding occurs you need to INCREASE the load, not >> decrease it. Reducing it would result in higher revs and might even >> result in the windmill tearing itself to destruction under storm >> conditions - and the flying debris might just come your way ! >> The most effective and common way of braking this kind of generator >> is to short-circuit the output - the problem here however is that the >> windings and whatever you use to clamp them will need to handle a >> very large current - which might take them out completely. If you do >> go down this route, you might want to consider a low value resistor - >> a couple of ohms - of a few hundred watts capacity. This would act >> as a modest brake. You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- >> resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of >> water containing a large quantity of salt) >> >> To keep things simple - it might be wise to either construct a >> mechanical device to turn the prop out of the wind - or preferably >> feather the blades. >> >> Regards >> Colin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7466|7333|2005-04-04 22:32:44|kendall|Re: Metal Prepration|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Alex > "black slag", so I did as well. > I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always a > concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" > (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took an > imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way over > > Gord > > One thing that helps a bit with the moisture, if you place a decent sized light bulb in the sand, 50 to 100 watt, I use a drop light open side down. Depending on size of the pot, it will help to dry out the sand and keep it from caking up. Most often what I do, except on small jobs, is keep the sand warm by dumping it in a barrel, (can't get good sand except in a bag up here), with a bulb under the sand, then using a bulb in the pot too. yes the bulb does overheat sometimes, but it saves a lot of time, and it doesn't hurt the sand. If worried about safety, unplug the bulb when you transfer sand. Ken.| 7467|7428|2005-04-04 22:38:30|servo_bot|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|Howdy Ben. I've already begun. I'm uber-poor, so I'm building in pieces. Right now, I'm just fabricating the little things in scrap metal: chainplates, tangs and deck framing. Anything I can cut up in my welding labs at school. The local metal supplier is pretty expensive, so I'll have to wait for next year's tax refund before I can make any headway on hull plating. In the meantime, I'll keep doing detail work and buying little things, like paint and other consumables. I'll be documenting the project as soon I get into the meat of it. When I do, I'll send you a link to my website. Andy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Thanks for sharing your project , when do you start building ? > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > It's the Liza Jane, located here: > > > > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > > > I think, as another poster noted, the symbol means "plate." By this > > definition, use of the symbol seems redundant on the plans, because in > > each instance, the symbol appears in a context like, "use 12 ga .110" > > plate PL." > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Andy , the PL as seen in files says nothing to me , > > > seeing it on a plan could ring a bell :-) > > > What W Atkin plan are you talking about ? > > > Can you redirect to one on : http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ > > > Just as curious as you , about that PL sign :-) > > > rgds Old Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > > > It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is pl.jpg. > > > > The link, which may break, due to its length is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > y-dYRfCK18Z0AvmlpycuNLf32LGp0LMrdDwJ9TY9NC6VYpCRdR3X8/pl.jpg> > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel William > > > > > > Atkin design. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > > > > > > > > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not > > > > working for me, > > > > > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > > > > > Old Ben | 7468|7403|2005-04-04 22:46:35|Henri Naths|Re: voltage alarm|Thanks gentlemen, excellent information much appreciative, Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: 04 April, 2005 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > Thanks Colin > Colin wrote >>You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- > resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of > water containing a large quantity of salt) > > ..you could make h2 for your fuel cell and hot water.... > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sae140" > To: > Sent: 04 April, 2005 2:18 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: voltage alarm > > >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >> wrote: >>> Hi Jim, I have a trouble getting my brain around the problem. You >> said there >>> is a possibility of the batteries over charging. Wouldn't the built >> in >>> voltage regulator take care of that,.. same as in your vehicle,.. >> or am I >>> missing something? >>> Henri >> >> >> The problem with electronic dynamic over-voltage regulation on a fast- >> moving device such as a windmill, is that the last thing you would >> want to do is disconnect the load, or relieve the load by means of a >> normal (car) alternator regulator. The load is acting partly as a >> brake, so if overspeeding occurs you need to INCREASE the load, not >> decrease it. Reducing it would result in higher revs and might even >> result in the windmill tearing itself to destruction under storm >> conditions - and the flying debris might just come your way ! >> The most effective and common way of braking this kind of generator >> is to short-circuit the output - the problem here however is that the >> windings and whatever you use to clamp them will need to handle a >> very large current - which might take them out completely. If you do >> go down this route, you might want to consider a low value resistor - >> a couple of ohms - of a few hundred watts capacity. This would act >> as a modest brake. You then need to dump the heat somehow. A water- >> resistor might do it. (a couple of BIG electrodes in a bucket of >> water containing a large quantity of salt) >> >> To keep things simple - it might be wise to either construct a >> mechanical device to turn the prop out of the wind - or preferably >> feather the blades. >> >> Regards >> Colin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7469|7428|2005-04-05 00:48:08|Puck III|Re: I need help identifying a symbol in some plans|I look forward to see some pics of the real thing , keep us posted Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > Howdy Ben. > > I've already begun. I'm uber-poor, so I'm building in pieces. Right > now, I'm just fabricating the little things in scrap metal: > chainplates, tangs and deck framing. Anything I can cut up in my > welding labs at school. > > The local metal supplier is pretty expensive, so I'll have to wait for > next year's tax refund before I can make any headway on hull plating. > > In the meantime, I'll keep doing detail work and buying little things, > like paint and other consumables. > > I'll be documenting the project as soon I get into the meat of it. > When I do, I'll send you a link to my website. > > Andy > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > Thanks for sharing your project , when do you start building ? > > > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > It's the Liza Jane, located here: > > > > > > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > > > > > I think, as another poster noted, the symbol means "plate." By this > > > definition, use of the symbol seems redundant on the plans, because in > > > each instance, the symbol appears in a context like, "use 12 ga .110" > > > plate PL." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Andy , the PL as seen in files says nothing to me , > > > > seeing it on a plan could ring a bell :-) > > > > What W Atkin plan are you talking about ? > > > > Can you redirect to one on : http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ > > > > Just as curious as you , about that PL sign :-) > > > > rgds Old Ben > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > > > > > It's in the Files section of this site. The fileneame is is > pl.jpg. > > > > > The link, which may break, due to its length is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > y-dYRfCK18Z0AvmlpycuNLf32LGp0LMrdDwJ9TY9NC6VYpCRdR3X8/pl.jpg> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "servo_bot" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, it's not Swain a plan, but it is a frameless steel > William > > > > > > > Atkin design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, what does this P-overlapping-a-L symbol signify? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5kkao > > > > > > > > > > > > Even typed directly in the adres-bar the posted tinyurl is not > > > > > working for me, > > > > > > (could be due to my acces provider ) , please check it . > > > > > > Old Ben | 7470|7403|2005-04-05 04:10:42|sae140|Re: voltage alarm|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:31:37 -0600, Henri Naths > wrote: > > brent originally said he wanted 15V, i bleve that most car alternators regulate to 13.5, which means he'd have to get a 16V alternator or bypass the regulator, Any regulator which uses ground to measure it's reference voltage to (i.e. nearly all of 'em), can have their reference voltage raised quite easily by inserting a diode in the ground path - this will lift the reference voltage by roughly 0.6 volts. 2 diodes in series will give you around another 1.2 volts, and so on .... 0.6 volts per diode isn't exact, so you'll need to check with a meter. Using Shottky diodes will give you 0.4 volt increments to play with. I'm surprised that alternators in Canada don't have a winter/summer switch fitted to raise the battery charging voltage by another half volt in winter - would be damned useful considering your harsh climate. Although Brent isn't using field regulation with his PM rotor, a regulator pinched from a u/s alternator plus a handful of diodes and a n/o relay could be rigged to clang a bell when 15 volts was approached. As I see it, there are 3 issues involved here: one is normal manned operation, where the above would suffice. The other is what regulation exists for when the boat is unmanned ? The third is what happens if (or rather when) a severe gale blows if the blades are still spinning ? > then another problem, lead acid batteries are not like capacitors, AFAIK charging them after they've reached full charge can cause damage, same for some other kinds. so just keeping the mill at an optimum speed is not enough, the current has to be shunted away from the batteries when full charge is achieved. Yes - either that or the mill brought to a standstill. Colin| 7471|7471|2005-04-05 05:21:59|sae140|Using Thryristors instead of Diodes|For anyone considering voltage control of any device producing AC - either on a windmill or alternator conversion - I'd recommend the use of thryristors (SCR's) instead of plain diodes. Firstly, switching these in and out of circuit is simple - no need for switches or mechanical relays - and secondly, as these are used for industrial motor control, they can be found in some very large sizes. I've just bought six pairs of Semikron Semipack industry-standard dual-device modules (SKKT92's) in which each device is rated at 1200V 95A, with a 3-phase bridge (6 device) rating of 175A continuous. They have 2.5 sq. in. isolated bases to dump the heat. Ideal for an alternator welder, and not expensive. Fit 'em and forget 'em. There are also stud-mounting (live studs !) thyristors available in even bigger sizes, 1200V 300A are not unusual - check out US eBay - they are often seen there for sale. You won't EVER bust these babies. You might even find big thyristors in the scrap yard - look out for 3- phase motor control panels. Regards Colin| 7472|7333|2005-04-05 06:58:39|T & D CAIN|Re: Metal Prepration|Gord, and others intending to do their own blasting. I am sure you all know this and don't wish to hear it again, but, it is inevitable that moisture turns up (actually precipitates) in the pot and the entire compressed air system if it isn't removed prior to feeding the setup. There is a thing going on related to the "Joule - Thompson" effect, when the pressure in a compressed ambient (air in this case) gas drops - even a moderate amount - there is a temperature reduction. If the moisture content is "x" then some of it will condense on almost any surface, and the "x-y" is what comes out of the nozzle along with the abrasive. What you have in sand and slag is huge surface area, and an affinity for moisture. In every elbow, bend, pipe entry to pressure pot, grit pickup venturi system, there is a pressure drop and that is how the water accumulates. All of the moisture responsible for clogging was in the compressed air. Have a look at the air stream, without slag / sand turned on, as it leaves the supersonic region of the nozzle, there is a fine cloud of condensed moisture visible as the sharp temperature reduction condenses the moisture which was inevitably drawn in by the compressor, and there isn't a system made which removes it all. Sure, some intercoolers and some aftercoolers take out 60+% of it in each step, if the coolant conditions are right, but unless we are using "arid" air as in refrigerated or adsorption drying systems, there is moisture in the compressors outlet and it will condense at every pressure drop opportunity. If we could blast in the Arctic or Antarctic, we would be sucking air almost 'arid' air into the compressor. Some desert climates are also less than 20% relative humidity, and these have less, but not nil problems with blasting abrasive getting wet. Dry days and very low RH are a gift to folk doing high quality blast preps. If the "black slag" Gord mentions, is sharp chilled slag (nearly black glass) , then it does a splendid job of preparing a steel surface for coating. I think this material ranks above garnet abrasive, and is way better than silica sand in the natural state. Fine stuff cleans fast and it looks good, but if you want profile, you need angular pieces and that is less common in sand types. Terry -----Original Message----- From: gschnell [mailto:gschnell@...] Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:29 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Metal Prepration Alex When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the barge industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry uses "black slag", so I did as well. I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always a concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took an imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way over budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on (inside and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but like every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. Gord Alex Christie wrote: > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged the > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white sand > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. In > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air > which > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of primer > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline weld > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but Zinga > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the zinc-rich > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly safe > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against the > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, but > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would avoid > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with the > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on blast > day > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag powder > out > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > chore, > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > Alex > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [click here] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7473|7420|2005-04-05 06:59:03|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|-----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators Brent, Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard weld speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires out of the stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the multimeter to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on AC volts and the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not secured, and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright arc --- please avoid this! Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also the diode types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin when you re-connect. The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads are broken simultaneously. Terry Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my diode pack with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm not actually welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. Thanks Brent| 7474|7434|2005-04-05 07:45:40|seeratlas|Re: Twin keels a good read|When I first started working up my plans for the new boat, I spent some time communicating with Bray. He has some experience with putting twin keels on some powerboats primarily for stabilization purposes. At least at that time, not a single boat with his keel design had been built for sailing. A couple of other noted northwest designers have similar "experience levels"..... My conclusion was that theory is great stuff, if you want to sail on cad programs..For myself, tho, I'm heading for the ocean. Unless you're into paying to do someone's 'R&D", I'd stick with the guys who've "been there, done that"... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/ > > If you go to the above link, you will be taken to an article about > Twin Keels worth reading. Patrick Bray, a naval architect from White > Rock BC tank tests various hull forms at UBC and has made some good > progress in the understanding and development of modern twin keels. He > even goes as far as to say that they will improve vessel performance > providing that the shape is correct and that the location is in its > ideal place. > > Too far aft or too far forward changes things significantly. > Even if you aren't looking for a racer, not too many people that would > be against an extra knot or two of speed. > > Carl M. | 7475|7403|2005-04-05 08:24:46|jim dorey|Re: voltage alarm|On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:10:30 -0000, sae140 wrote: > I'm surprised that alternators in Canada don't have a > winter/summer switch fitted to raise the battery charging voltage by > another half volt in winter - would be damned useful considering your > harsh climate. not so harsh here, i live away from the centre of the continent where it is harsh, cept for the occasional hurricane(1 in 25 years caused serious damage). -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7476|7476|2005-04-05 08:30:23|seeratlas|Regarding Sandblasting the hull|Somewhere along the way I must have missed something. I was under the impression that if you got the pretreated plate, i.e. mill scale removed and the zinc primer shot on before delivery, that WAS supposed to eliminate the need for blasting the hull before painting, at least as long as you were meticulous about touching up the welds, and any marked areas as you went along. I seem to remember that Alex's pre-treated plate turned out pretty schetchy and that combined with his building outside over the winter necessitated the blasting, but under more normal circumstances, won't the pre-primed steel do the trick? I've blasted some stuff with my father many years ago and still remember vividly just how miserable a job it was. The thought of having to blast something as large as my 42 will be, is enough to tempt me to hire the job out and go away for the weekend. seer| 7477|7477|2005-04-05 13:31:33|tomjlee2000|Stove Pipe Hot Water Heaters|"AMIGOS" (scroll to bottom) Perhaps the "Great One" will be forthcoming in this regard. "K I S"| 7478|7333|2005-04-05 14:51:45|gschnell|Re: Metal Prepration|That's a big YES. I have since found a painter/sandblaster, Mark at "Splashing Color", here in the Lower Mainland who is inexpensive, fast and fair. Gord Jim Ragsdale wrote: > In hindsight, would you have rather hired it out? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gschnell" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:58 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Metal Prepration > > > > > > Alex > > When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the > barge > > industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry uses > > > "black slag", so I did as well. > > I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always > a > > concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" > > (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took > an > > imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way > over > > budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on > (inside > > and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but > like > > every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. > > Gord > > > > > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged > the > > > > > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white > sand > > > > > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > > > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. > In > > > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air > > > which > > > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I > > > > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of > primer > > > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline > weld > > > > > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but > Zinga > > > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the > zinc-rich > > > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly > safe > > > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against > the > > > > > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, > but > > > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > > > > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > > > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would > avoid > > > > > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with > the > > > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on > blast > > > day > > > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag > powder > > > out > > > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > > > chore, > > > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > [click here] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7479|7333|2005-04-05 14:57:22|gschnell|Re: Metal Prepration|Thanks for the comments, Terry. I was doing this in the "heat of the summer" when the air is "fat" with moisture. I used water traps, blew the system down at each sand load, tried to run continuous once I started and still had some problems. It goes with the territory. In retrospect, I used too small a nozzle. None the less, we did get a beautiful finish and the paint is very well bonded. As construction proceeds, it gets "tested" regularily. No chipping yet. Gord T & D CAIN wrote: > Gord, and others intending to do their own blasting. > I am sure you all know this and don't wish to hear it again, but, it > is > inevitable that moisture turns up (actually precipitates) in the pot > and the > entire compressed air system if it isn't removed prior to feeding the > setup. > There is a thing going on related to the "Joule - Thompson" effect, > when the > pressure in a compressed ambient (air in this case) gas drops - even a > > moderate amount - there is a temperature reduction. If the moisture > content > is "x" then some of it will condense on almost any surface, and the > "x-y" is > what comes out of the nozzle along with the abrasive. What you have in > sand > and slag is huge surface area, and an affinity for moisture. In every > elbow, > bend, pipe entry to pressure pot, grit pickup venturi system, there is > a > pressure drop and that is how the water accumulates. All of the > moisture > responsible for clogging was in the compressed air. > Have a look at the air stream, without slag / sand turned on, as it > leaves > the supersonic region of the nozzle, there is a fine cloud of > condensed > moisture visible as the sharp temperature reduction condenses the > moisture > which was inevitably drawn in by the compressor, and there isn't a > system > made which removes it all. > Sure, some intercoolers and some aftercoolers take out 60+% of it in > each > step, if the coolant conditions are right, but unless we are using > "arid" > air as in refrigerated or adsorption drying systems, there is moisture > in > the compressors outlet and it will condense at every pressure drop > opportunity. > If we could blast in the Arctic or Antarctic, we would be sucking air > almost > 'arid' air into the compressor. > Some desert climates are also less than 20% relative humidity, and > these > have less, but not nil problems with blasting abrasive getting wet. > Dry days and very low RH are a gift to folk doing high quality blast > preps. > If the "black slag" Gord mentions, is sharp chilled slag (nearly black > > glass) , then it does a splendid job of preparing a steel surface for > coating. > I think this material ranks above garnet abrasive, and is way better > than > silica sand in the natural state. > Fine stuff cleans fast and it looks good, but if you want profile, you > need > angular pieces and that is less common in sand types. > Terry > -----Original Message----- > From: gschnell [mailto:gschnell@...] > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:29 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Metal Prepration > > > Alex > When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the > barge > industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry uses > "black slag", so I did as well. > I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always a > concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" > (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took an > > imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way over > budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on (inside > > and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but like > > every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. > Gord > > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged > the > > > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white > sand > > > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. > In > > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air > > which > > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I > > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of primer > > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline > weld > > > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but Zinga > > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the zinc-rich > > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly safe > > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against > the > > > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, > but > > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would > avoid > > > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with > the > > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on blast > > day > > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag powder > > out > > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > > chore, > > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7480|7476|2005-04-05 15:33:39|gschnell|Re: Regarding Sandblasting the hull|Anywhere you have welded or cut, the zinc primer is destroyed. Surface rust starts within days. Anywhere you grind, same problem. Even if you never touched the plate, the zinc coating begins to "bloom" in a year or so. Most boats are longer than that in production...mine sure is. Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Somewhere along the way I must have missed something. I was under the > impression that if you got the pretreated plate, i.e. mill scale > removed and the zinc primer shot on before delivery, that WAS supposed > > to eliminate the need for blasting the hull before painting, at least > as long as you were meticulous about touching up the welds, and any > marked areas as you went along. > > I seem to remember that Alex's pre-treated plate turned out pretty > schetchy and that combined with his building outside over the winter > necessitated the blasting, but under more normal circumstances, won't > the pre-primed steel do the trick? > > I've blasted some stuff with my father many years ago and still > remember vividly just how miserable a job it was. The thought of > having to blast something as large as my 42 will be, is enough to > tempt me to hire the job out and go away for the weekend. > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7481|7476|2005-04-05 19:04:30|brentswain38|Re: Regarding Sandblasting the hull|No ,you got it right. As long as you have wheelabraded and pre primed plate , and keep up the primer wherever you weld, sweep the grinder fillings , etc off at the end of every day , you eliminate the need to sandblast. I tell this to all my clients, but most ignore it, leave grinder fillings, wet canvas, scrap, etc ,on for months at a time,in the rain, never touch up welded and cut areas,, and never touch up areas where the primer starts to fail, then end up having to sandblast.I never hsandblasted my boat and the paint is perfect after 21 years of more ot or less continuous cruising and several Pacific crossings.it only works if you follow directions. However, if you do let it all go to hell, a hull which used wheelabraded and pre primed plate is still far easier to blast than one which used black steel . Another factor is keeping the project moving and getting your epoxy on before the primer starts to fail, rather than abadonning the project for months , or sometimes years at a time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Somewhere along the way I must have missed something. I was under the > impression that if you got the pretreated plate, i.e. mill scale > removed and the zinc primer shot on before delivery, that WAS supposed > to eliminate the need for blasting the hull before painting, at least > as long as you were meticulous about touching up the welds, and any > marked areas as you went along. > > I seem to remember that Alex's pre-treated plate turned out pretty > schetchy and that combined with his building outside over the winter > necessitated the blasting, but under more normal circumstances, won't > the pre-primed steel do the trick? > > I've blasted some stuff with my father many years ago and still > remember vividly just how miserable a job it was. The thought of > having to blast something as large as my 42 will be, is enough to > tempt me to hire the job out and go away for the weekend. > > seer | 7482|7477|2005-04-05 19:08:45|brentswain38|Re: Stove Pipe Hot Water Heaters|A friend ran his 4 inch oilstove chimney thru a watertank and had all the hot water he needed, gravity fed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tomjlee2000" wrote: > > > > > > "AMIGOS" > > > > (scroll to bottom) > > > Perhaps the "Great One" will be forthcoming > > in this regard. > > "K I S" | 7483|7420|2005-04-05 19:13:53|brentswain38|Re: alternators|Will do. The diodes are MR5020 and MR 5020L set in aluminium heat sinks, made for a 135 amp portable welder called a "Scotty" Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > Brent, > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard weld > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires out of the > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the multimeter > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on AC volts and > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not secured, > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright arc - -- > please avoid this! > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also the diode > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin when you > re-connect. > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads are broken > simultaneously. > Terry > > > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my diode pack > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm not actually > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. > Thanks > Brent | 7484|7477|2005-04-05 20:07:52|Earl Burgess|Re: Stove Pipe Hot Water Heaters|Wouldn't engine exhaust be available for the same purpose? Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" > A friend ran his 4 inch oilstove chimney thru a watertank and had all > the hot water he needed, gravity fed. > Brent > | 7485|7333|2005-04-05 22:52:33|seeratlas|Re: Metal Prepration|Gord you need to get some more pics up on the site so we can drool over your boat :) heheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Thanks for the comments, Terry. I was doing this in the "heat of the > summer" when the air is "fat" with moisture. I used water traps, blew > the system down at each sand load, tried to run continuous once I > started and still had some problems. It goes with the territory. In > retrospect, I used too small a nozzle. None the less, we did get a > beautiful finish and the paint is very well bonded. As construction > proceeds, it gets "tested" regularily. No chipping yet. > Gord > > > T & D CAIN wrote: > > > Gord, and others intending to do their own blasting. > > I am sure you all know this and don't wish to hear it again, but, it > > is > > inevitable that moisture turns up (actually precipitates) in the pot > > and the > > entire compressed air system if it isn't removed prior to feeding the > > setup. > > There is a thing going on related to the "Joule - Thompson" effect, > > when the > > pressure in a compressed ambient (air in this case) gas drops - even a > > > > moderate amount - there is a temperature reduction. If the moisture > > content > > is "x" then some of it will condense on almost any surface, and the > > "x-y" is > > what comes out of the nozzle along with the abrasive. What you have in > > sand > > and slag is huge surface area, and an affinity for moisture. In every > > elbow, > > bend, pipe entry to pressure pot, grit pickup venturi system, there is > > a > > pressure drop and that is how the water accumulates. All of the > > moisture > > responsible for clogging was in the compressed air. > > Have a look at the air stream, without slag / sand turned on, as it > > leaves > > the supersonic region of the nozzle, there is a fine cloud of > > condensed > > moisture visible as the sharp temperature reduction condenses the > > moisture > > which was inevitably drawn in by the compressor, and there isn't a > > system > > made which removes it all. > > Sure, some intercoolers and some aftercoolers take out 60+% of it in > > each > > step, if the coolant conditions are right, but unless we are using > > "arid" > > air as in refrigerated or adsorption drying systems, there is moisture > > in > > the compressors outlet and it will condense at every pressure drop > > opportunity. > > If we could blast in the Arctic or Antarctic, we would be sucking air > > almost > > 'arid' air into the compressor. > > Some desert climates are also less than 20% relative humidity, and > > these > > have less, but not nil problems with blasting abrasive getting wet. > > Dry days and very low RH are a gift to folk doing high quality blast > > preps. > > If the "black slag" Gord mentions, is sharp chilled slag (nearly black > > > > glass) , then it does a splendid job of preparing a steel surface for > > coating. > > I think this material ranks above garnet abrasive, and is way better > > than > > silica sand in the natural state. > > Fine stuff cleans fast and it looks good, but if you want profile, you > > need > > angular pieces and that is less common in sand types. > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gschnell [mailto:gschnell@s...] > > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:29 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Metal Prepration > > > > > > Alex > > When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the > > barge > > industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry uses > > "black slag", so I did as well. > > I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was always a > > concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your "powder" > > (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process took an > > > > imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way over > > budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on (inside > > > > and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but like > > > > every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. > > Gord > > > > > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it clogged > > the > > > > > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The white > > sand > > > > > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > > > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a mask. > > In > > > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of air > > > which > > > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, I > > > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of primer > > > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the centreline > > weld > > > > > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but Zinga > > > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the zinc-rich > > > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly safe > > > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized against > > the > > > > > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may happen, > > but > > > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > > > > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > > > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would > > avoid > > > > > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) with > > the > > > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on blast > > > day > > > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag powder > > > out > > > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > > > chore, > > > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > [click here] > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7486|7477|2005-04-06 03:50:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Stove Pipe Hot Water Heaters|Brent, A few questions about the water heater: Did your friend weld the 4" stovepipe into the water tank or pass it through a sleeve? Did he get a problem with tar condensing in the pipe? How did he arrange the filler and breather to stop spillage when healed? Was it all stainless? I have seen gas fired heaters with a zig zag baffle plate in the flue to creat turbulence and throw more heat to the flue walls. Thanks, Ted| 7487|7333|2005-04-06 12:07:05|gschnell|Re: Metal Prepration|seer and all Yes, the pics, I have posted, are grossly out-of-date. Like all, I have been pushing hard to get in the water and done little to record the progress. I ran out of space on the original site and really need to transfer it all to origami2 and then update. This is, perhaps, premature, but I am creating a website on "building an origami boat". My thought is; "It may tie-in with Alex's video to produce a guide for the new builder. At present, I am using my project for the photos. Other contributors may want to add theirs, down the road. I know (I remember, vividly) that building the first boat without a mentor, leaves the builder with an endless string of questions and doubts (is this how it should be done?) The Origami site and all the contributions by our 1000+ members is invaluable, but not always clear and complete. A sequence, pictures and comments may form a good framework for the new builder....record the "best solutions" and refine and improve the final product by integrating all the best solutions, from all the creative minds out there. Comments are welcome. I get back as soon as time allows. The site is incomplete, but if anyone has an interest, it can be viewed at: http://members.shaw.ca/graceyachts/ Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Gord you need to get some more pics up on the site so we can drool > over your boat :) heheh > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > Thanks for the comments, Terry. I was doing this in the "heat of the > > > summer" when the air is "fat" with moisture. I used water traps, > blew > > the system down at each sand load, tried to run continuous once I > > started and still had some problems. It goes with the territory. In > > retrospect, I used too small a nozzle. None the less, we did get a > > beautiful finish and the paint is very well bonded. As construction > > proceeds, it gets "tested" regularily. No chipping yet. > > Gord > > > > > > T & D CAIN wrote: > > > > > Gord, and others intending to do their own blasting. > > > I am sure you all know this and don't wish to hear it again, but, > it > > > is > > > inevitable that moisture turns up (actually precipitates) in the > pot > > > and the > > > entire compressed air system if it isn't removed prior to feeding > the > > > setup. > > > There is a thing going on related to the "Joule - Thompson" > effect, > > > when the > > > pressure in a compressed ambient (air in this case) gas drops - > even a > > > > > > moderate amount - there is a temperature reduction. If the > moisture > > > content > > > is "x" then some of it will condense on almost any surface, and > the > > > "x-y" is > > > what comes out of the nozzle along with the abrasive. What you > have in > > > sand > > > and slag is huge surface area, and an affinity for moisture. In > every > > > elbow, > > > bend, pipe entry to pressure pot, grit pickup venturi system, > there is > > > a > > > pressure drop and that is how the water accumulates. All of the > > > moisture > > > responsible for clogging was in the compressed air. > > > Have a look at the air stream, without slag / sand turned on, as > it > > > leaves > > > the supersonic region of the nozzle, there is a fine cloud of > > > condensed > > > moisture visible as the sharp temperature reduction condenses the > > > moisture > > > which was inevitably drawn in by the compressor, and there isn't a > > > > system > > > made which removes it all. > > > Sure, some intercoolers and some aftercoolers take out 60+% of it > in > > > each > > > step, if the coolant conditions are right, but unless we are using > > > > "arid" > > > air as in refrigerated or adsorption drying systems, there is > moisture > > > in > > > the compressors outlet and it will condense at every pressure drop > > > > opportunity. > > > If we could blast in the Arctic or Antarctic, we would be sucking > air > > > almost > > > 'arid' air into the compressor. > > > Some desert climates are also less than 20% relative humidity, and > > > > these > > > have less, but not nil problems with blasting abrasive getting > wet. > > > Dry days and very low RH are a gift to folk doing high quality > blast > > > preps. > > > If the "black slag" Gord mentions, is sharp chilled slag (nearly > black > > > > > > glass) , then it does a splendid job of preparing a steel surface > for > > > coating. > > > I think this material ranks above garnet abrasive, and is way > better > > > than > > > silica sand in the natural state. > > > Fine stuff cleans fast and it looks good, but if you want profile, > you > > > need > > > angular pieces and that is less common in sand types. > > > Terry > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: gschnell [mailto:gschnell@s...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:29 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Metal Prepration > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > When I was preparing to blast my 40', I talked to a people in the > > > barge > > > industry and to a couple of sandblast contractors. The industry > uses > > > "black slag", so I did as well. > > > I rented a large compressor and pot. Plugging of the pot was > always a > > > concern, but I found moisture to be the culprit. Keep your > "powder" > > > (sand) dry and things work well. I also found that the process > took an > > > > > > imense amount of sand and many hours of blasting. I ended up way > over > > > budget on the blasting process. Now that the Zinc primer is on > (inside > > > > > > and out) and the primer is in place, I'm happy with the job...but > like > > > > > > every aspect of this process, it's a learning experience. > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > > > I started out with the black slag stuff, and found that it > clogged > > > the > > > > > > > > blaster hopper quite easily when the pressure got low. The > white > > > sand > > > > > > > > seems to cut very nicely and flows more easily (tho it clogged > > > > eventually too), and I kept it out of my lungs by wearing a > mask. > > > In > > > > either case I think it was the lack of pressure and volume of > air > > > > which > > > > allowed the system to gum up. When everything was working well, > I > > > > found it worked very fast, cutting through the thin layer of > primer > > > > where my water tank was to be, as well as cleaning the > centreline > > > weld > > > > > > > > bead. It seemed crazy to have to remove the good primer, but > Zinga > > > > people insisted it has to be touching bare metal, not the > zinc-rich > > > > primer the steel came with. I think my silica sand was fairly > safe > > > > because the low pressure didn't allow it to get pulverized > against > > > the > > > > > > > > metal surface. In a compressor with higher cfm, this may > happen, > > > but > > > > then it would cut the rust more effectively. > > > > > > > > Using my protocol for prepping the steel sheets on the flat with > > > > > blasting and priming done before pulling the hull together would > > > > avoid > > > > > > > > having to blast inside (only touch-ups on the inside weldes) > with > > > the > > > > silica by-product. A good stiff wind, plus wearing a mask on > blast > > > > day > > > > would ensure safety outside. I found digging the black slag > powder > > > > out > > > > of the nooks and crannies of the inside of the boat to be a real > > > > > chore, > > > > and would try to avoid excessive inside blasting in the future. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > [click here] > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7488|7477|2005-04-06 17:15:50|brentswain38|Re: Stove Pipe Hot Water Heaters|It was an aluninium tank with the chimney welded right in, Witha woodstove it woukld require stainless. As it was a straight pipe , it was easy to clean.OIt never reached boiling, just warm enough for washing. I can't remember what he did for filler and vents, but I belive the filler was welded in to the top of the stove, filled inside Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Brent, > > A few questions about the water heater: > > Did your friend weld the 4" stovepipe into the water tank or pass it > through a sleeve? Did he get a problem with tar condensing in the > pipe? How did he arrange the filler and breather to stop spillage > when healed? Was it all stainless? I have seen gas fired heaters > with a zig zag baffle plate in the flue to creat turbulence and throw > more heat to the flue walls. > > Thanks, > Ted | 7489|7477|2005-04-06 17:19:12|brentswain38|Re: Stove Pipe Hot Water Heaters|Engine exhuast would be a bit hotter than you would like. Running about 18 inches of 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe inside a 2 gallon tank gives you engine temperature water after about 20 minutes of running --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Burgess" wrote: > Wouldn't engine exhaust be available for the same purpose? > Earl > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > > A friend ran his 4 inch oilstove chimney thru a watertank and had all > > the hot water he needed, gravity fed. > > Brent > > | 7490|7420|2005-04-06 17:21:42|brentswain38|Re: alternators|I checked it out last nite. At the low end of welding RPM I got around 30 volts and at the high end I got 60 volts. Strange, as with the DC after the diodes I got enough DC voltage to run a grinder and light up a 120 volt bulb to normal brightness. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Will do. > The diodes are MR5020 and MR 5020L set in aluminium heat sinks, made > for a 135 amp portable welder called a "Scotty" > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > > Brent, > > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. > > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard > weld > > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires out > of the > > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the > multimeter > > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on AC > volts and > > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not > secured, > > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright arc - > -- > > please avoid this! > > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also > the diode > > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. > > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin > when you > > re-connect. > > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads are > broken > > simultaneously. > > Terry > > > > > > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my > diode pack > > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm not > actually > > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. > > Thanks > > Brent | 7491|7491|2005-04-06 17:28:41|brentswain38|Wave Energy|Many decades ago I read in a British Magazine about a retired engineer crossing the Atlantic. He hooked up a larger version of the mechanism of a self winding watch to a generator and got more power than he could use. He said that he had to tie the thing off most of the time to avoid overcharging his batteries. I've often sat in calms at sea , watching the everpresent swell and thinking about how easy it would be to convert that motion into a circular motion to run a generator, with the help of a flywheel. There is a tremendous amount of 24 hour a day energy there for the taking. Gears and rachet , hooked up to a series of wheels and a pendulum would be too noisy and prone to wear, but a series of rubber wheels witha rubber bad between the pendulum and the largest wheel would be quiet, long lived and easy to repair anywhere.I hope to try this out soon, but I've been saying that for decades.It could be stowed anywhere aboard, including out of sight in any locker. Brent| 7492|7491|2005-04-06 17:31:24|brentswain38|Re: Wave Energy|A float on a long fibreglass pole , like a used SSB antena, with a float on the end,over the stern , hooked up to a rachet and wheels, would be another possible way to tap into this energy source. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Many decades ago I read in a British Magazine about a retired engineer > crossing the Atlantic. He hooked up a larger version of the mechanism > of a self winding watch to a generator and got more power than he could > use. He said that he had to tie the thing off most of the time to avoid > overcharging his batteries. > I've often sat in calms at sea , watching the everpresent swell and > thinking about how easy it would be to convert that motion into a > circular motion to run a generator, with the help of a flywheel. There > is a tremendous amount of 24 hour a day energy there for the taking. > Gears and rachet , hooked up to a series of wheels and a pendulum > would be too noisy and prone to wear, but a series of rubber wheels > witha rubber bad between the pendulum and the largest wheel would be > quiet, long lived and easy to repair anywhere.I hope to try this out > soon, but I've been saying that for decades.It could be stowed anywhere > aboard, including out of sight in any locker. > Brent | 7493|7420|2005-04-06 17:36:19|jim dorey|Re: alternators|On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:21:35 -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > I checked it out last nite. At the low end of welding RPM I got > around 30 volts and at the high end I got 60 volts. Strange, as with > the DC after the diodes I got enough DC voltage to run a grinder and > light up a 120 volt bulb to normal brightness. > Brent may be cause it's rectified 3 phase. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7494|7491|2005-04-06 18:11:42|Michael Casling|Re: Wave Energy|I have thought for a long time that the rise and fall of the tides and the action of waves could be used in this manner. Plenty of rocky areas at the coast to built something with the arm out in the puddle. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Wave Energy Many decades ago I read in a British Magazine about a retired engineer crossing the Atlantic. He hooked up a larger version of the mechanism of a self winding watch to a generator and got more power than he could use. He said that he had to tie the thing off most of the time to avoid overcharging his batteries. I've often sat in calms at sea , watching the everpresent swell and thinking about how easy it would be to convert that motion into a circular motion to run a generator, with the help of a flywheel. There is a tremendous amount of 24 hour a day energy there for the taking. Gears and rachet , hooked up to a series of wheels and a pendulum would be too noisy and prone to wear, but a series of rubber wheels witha rubber bad between the pendulum and the largest wheel would be quiet, long lived and easy to repair anywhere.I hope to try this out soon, but I've been saying that for decades.It could be stowed anywhere aboard, including out of sight in any locker. Brent To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7495|7491|2005-04-06 19:32:35|murraycamp|Re: Wave Energy|How about for refrigeration? I once read an ad for a bilge pump that ran on wave energy (mechanical no electricity, a float on the water surface actuated the pump mechanism)...the idea was to keep your open boat pumped out while it was bouncing out on a mooring. I've wondered if something similar could circulate cold seawater around an "icebox" and keep my veggies fresh longer without maxing out my solar power system. I suppose the heat exchanger would get fouled pretty quickly...? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I have thought for a long time that the rise and fall of the tides and the action of waves could be used in this manner. Plenty of rocky areas at the coast to built something with the arm out in the puddle. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Wave Energy > > > > Many decades ago I read in a British Magazine about a retired engineer > crossing the Atlantic. He hooked up a larger version of the mechanism > of a self winding watch to a generator and got more power than he could > use. He said that he had to tie the thing off most of the time to avoid > overcharging his batteries. > I've often sat in calms at sea , watching the everpresent swell and > thinking about how easy it would be to convert that motion into a > circular motion to run a generator, with the help of a flywheel. There > is a tremendous amount of 24 hour a day energy there for the taking. > Gears and rachet , hooked up to a series of wheels and a pendulum > would be too noisy and prone to wear, but a series of rubber wheels > witha rubber bad between the pendulum and the largest wheel would be > quiet, long lived and easy to repair anywhere.I hope to try this out > soon, but I've been saying that for decades.It could be stowed anywhere > aboard, including out of sight in any locker. > Brent > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7496|7420|2005-04-06 19:48:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: alternators|Your volt meter reading the AC is showing an average, or RMS voltage. The DC is at the peak voltage from the combined wave forms so it is about 1.7 times higher. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > I checked it out last nite. At the low end of welding RPM I got > around 30 volts and at the high end I got 60 volts. Strange, as with > the DC after the diodes I got enough DC voltage to run a grinder and > light up a 120 volt bulb to normal brightness. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> Will do. >> The diodes are MR5020 and MR 5020L set in aluminium heat sinks, > made >> for a 135 amp portable welder called a "Scotty" >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > wrote: >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] >> > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators >> > >> > Brent, >> > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. >> > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard >> weld >> > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires > out >> of the >> > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the >> multimeter >> > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on > AC >> volts and >> > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not >> secured, >> > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright > arc - >> -- >> > please avoid this! >> > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also >> the diode >> > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. >> > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin >> when you >> > re-connect. >> > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads > are >> broken >> > simultaneously. >> > Terry >> > >> > >> > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my >> diode pack >> > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm > not >> actually >> > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode > pack. >> > Thanks >> > Brent > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7497|7491|2005-04-06 20:03:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Wave Energy|Forget ratchets, you only need the gears or a couple of pulleys to increase the speed. To get the ratcheting action you just use Roller Cam Clutches, made by Torrington. These things look just like a needle roller bearing, like you see in a universal joint. In fact they are available with the Roller Cam Clutch in the same housing as the needle bearings. What they do is grip a smooth hardened shaft in one direction only, and freewheel in the other. Absolutely silent. You install them by press fitting them into a gear hub or other housing. Quite inexpensive too ($10?) I use them in a watering machine I've built for the past 18 years. The hose being reeled is 2-1/2" Diameter x 230 feet long! The only failure was when I used a 404 Stainless shaft instead of bearing grade hardened steel. I knew the load rating was greatly reduced but I thought it might work. It didn't, but the next one got the stainless shaft and two Roller Cam Clutches side by side. They work well on a standard hardened and ground shoulder bolt as long as the torque is in the direction of tightening the threads. I do that for the brake hubs. I also press seals into the ends of the housings to keep water out. These machines spray water, and some are outside all year around. Use a pair of opposed clutches on the driving shaft, installed in large gears. The output shaft gets a smaller gear to increase the speed. The second opposing large gear drive the shaft through an intermediate gear that reverses the direction, so you get drive on the return stroke too. Add a good size flywheel to the output shaft to absorb all the power you can and deliver it to your generator at a constant rate. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Wave Energy > > > Many decades ago I read in a British Magazine about a retired engineer > crossing the Atlantic. He hooked up a larger version of the mechanism > of a self winding watch to a generator and got more power than he could > use. He said that he had to tie the thing off most of the time to avoid > overcharging his batteries. > I've often sat in calms at sea , watching the everpresent swell and > thinking about how easy it would be to convert that motion into a > circular motion to run a generator, with the help of a flywheel. There > is a tremendous amount of 24 hour a day energy there for the taking. > Gears and rachet , hooked up to a series of wheels and a pendulum > would be too noisy and prone to wear, but a series of rubber wheels > witha rubber bad between the pendulum and the largest wheel would be > quiet, long lived and easy to repair anywhere.I hope to try this out > soon, but I've been saying that for decades.It could be stowed anywhere > aboard, including out of sight in any locker. > Brent > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7498|7491|2005-04-06 20:47:50|kendall|Re: Wave Energy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > like you see in a universal joint. In fact they are available with the > Roller Cam Clutch in the same housing as the needle bearings. What they do > is grip a smooth hardened shaft in one direction only, and freewheel in the > other. Absolutely silent. also available from automotive transmission shops, typically called an anti-reverse clutch, used in an auto so one of the clutch baskets will only go forward, very robust, and is built just like a regular ball bearing with inner and outer races so shaft material isn't an issue, they do require a keyway though. The only difference going from your description, is that they have a series of 'ramps' on the inside of the outer race, and small flat springs to keep the rollers at the 'open' end of the ramp except when the shaft starts to turn the other way, then they jamb up and lock the two halves together. Also fairly cheap, and surprisingly strong. ken.| 7499|7491|2005-04-06 21:24:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Wave Energy|Yep, except the ones you are describing are much larger in diameter. Also called a 'Sprag' clutch. The reason I suggested the Torringtons is because they don't need a key and only a smooth hardened shaft. The 3/4" shaft size fits in a 1" bore as I recall. that makes it easy to get a standard gear or pulley reamed to size. The bore must be very accurate -0.0000 +0.0005" Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kendall" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wave Energy > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> >> like you see in a universal joint. In fact they are available with the >> Roller Cam Clutch in the same housing as the needle bearings. What > they do >> is grip a smooth hardened shaft in one direction only, and freewheel > in the >> other. Absolutely silent. > > also available from automotive transmission shops, typically called > an anti-reverse clutch, used in an auto so one of the clutch baskets > will only go forward, very robust, and is built just like a regular > ball bearing with inner and outer races so shaft material isn't an > issue, they do require a keyway though. > The only difference going from your description, is that they have a > series of 'ramps' on the inside of the outer race, and small flat > springs to keep the rollers at the 'open' end of the ramp except when > the shaft starts to turn the other way, then they jamb up and lock the > two halves together. Also fairly cheap, and surprisingly strong. > > > ken. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7500|7491|2005-04-06 22:53:56|seeratlas|Re: Wave Energy|How about instead of a float you design your device to afix to a mount welded into the center of the stern. From this center pivot (think 'teeter/totter') a short pole leverarm goes athwartship out to each side side and from each end is suspended a 'flopper-stopper' kind of diving plane. Depending on the strength of your gear, you could up the size of the planes so as to develope some extraordinary torque with only a slight rocking of the ship. With each side, sticking out only far enough to clear the topsides,(if you mount inboard and high) or whatever length you find convenient if mounted astern and low, you could rev up some serious power, even in a slip. One freebie side effect would be the stabilization and roll rate reduction at anchor :). If the levers are designed to be quickly removable, the whole apparatus could be stored below when desired. When sailing use the towed propeller generator . If you frequently anchor where there is a current or tide of any note, perhaps an inverted 'windmill' type system that casn be easily affixed to the stern or removed when desired, and designed to swing around so that its always aligned with the flow would do the trick :) As long as you've got a big enough battery bank and a good inverter, between the wind gen, the water gen, and the 'rock&roll" gen, you should be up to your anodes in electricity :) heheh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > like you see in a universal joint. In fact they are available with the > > Roller Cam Clutch in the same housing as the needle bearings. What > they do > > is grip a smooth hardened shaft in one direction only, and freewheel > in the > > other. Absolutely silent. > > also available from automotive transmission shops, typically called > an anti-reverse clutch, used in an auto so one of the clutch baskets > will only go forward, very robust, and is built just like a regular > ball bearing with inner and outer races so shaft material isn't an > issue, they do require a keyway though. > The only difference going from your description, is that they have a > series of 'ramps' on the inside of the outer race, and small flat > springs to keep the rollers at the 'open' end of the ramp except when > the shaft starts to turn the other way, then they jamb up and lock the > two halves together. Also fairly cheap, and surprisingly strong. > > > ken. | 7501|7501|2005-04-07 01:17:47|jericoera|metal suppliers vancouver or the island?|Any idea where to purchase the metal from in Vancouver Canada or Vancouver Island? I want to start getting some price quotes etc. Carl| 7502|7502|2005-04-07 02:34:58|Harin S|Gorgeous girl Sneha acting opposite Arjun in ‘Chinna’ had to do man|http://www.veenaimovies.com/photogallerydetails.asp?artistid=204&artist_name=Sneha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7503|7502|2005-04-07 03:48:11|sae140|Re: Gorgeous girl Sneha acting opposite Arjun in ‘Chinna’ had to |Oh gawd - give it a rest ..... It's a good site here - so sod off. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Harin S wrote: > > http://www.veenaimovies.com/photogallerydetails.asp? artistid=204&artist_name=Sneha | 7504|7420|2005-04-07 04:04:24|sae140|Re: alternators|I'm trying to figure out the logic behind disconnecting the diodes when not welding, in an attempt to extend their life. In an alternator-welder configuration the power diodes are exposed to maximum forward voltage together with maximum surge current at the instantaneous moment the arc is struck; maximum continuous current at a somewhat lower voltage if (or rather when !) the electrode sticks to the workpiece; and maximum reverse voltage (back-emf inductive spike - possibly 2 or 3x the forward voltage) at the instant the arc is broken. These are the worst-case scenarios these diodes must survive during use, plus they must not exceed a specified working temperature, as their voltage and current handling capacities are reduced significantly (by possibly 50% or more) as the diode junction temperature rises. In marked contrast, when not welding the diodes will pass ZERO current (if you discount the odd pico-amp or two leakage), and so will begin the cooling-down process when no current is being drawn. While it is true that in your continuous-speed alternator-welder configuration they will continue to be exposed to maximum voltage in their hottest state, provided they survive the first milli-second or two (far faster than you could ever hope to manually switch them out of circuit) they will be over the worst, and switching them out of circuit after this time will do *nothing* useful to enhance their life, compared with the hardships they endure during the welding process itself. Personally, I'd leave the diodes 'as is'. Colin As an aside - measuring ac voltages in the manner suggested *may* give erroneous readings (very much depends on the meter used), as el cheapo meters are calibrated for 50/60 Hz only - but here we are looking at a Khz or 3. If you're interested in the ac voltage of the windings for any reason, I'd suggest either using a 'scope (if you can get the loan of one) with a simple voltage divider, or more simply measure the peak dc output with a meter and capacitor, then calculate backwards using the rms equation. You'll still be in guestimate country - but should be accurate enough for your purposes. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > Brent, > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard weld > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires out of the > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the multimeter > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on AC volts and > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not secured, > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright arc - -- > please avoid this! > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also the diode > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin when you > re-connect. > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads are broken > simultaneously. > Terry > > > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my diode pack > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm not actually > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. > Thanks > Brent | 7505|7420|2005-04-07 08:33:01|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|The readings Brent got are normal enough if the meter used is assumed to be ordinary in its design. I see the setup this way (via e-mail of course!). Across any two phases at 60 volts (at around 300 to 1000+ Hz --- so still likely to be inside the sensible frequency response of an ordinary digital multimeter reading average values of an AC waveform, but calibrated in RMS for a sine wave ) : 1. The DC load voltage output from the 6 diode or 8 * diode 3 phase bridge rectifier setup will be close to 81 volts for a resistive load and somewhat higher ( ~ 85 volts ) for a capacitive load. This is the open circuit voltage and it will decay to a lower value when the welding arc is operating. 2. These typical figures allow for the diode voltage drops when the rectifier is loaded. 3. The peak inverse voltage per diode will be close to 105% of the output voltage --- so not a problem with steady state operation. 4. The average current through the rectifier diodes will be around 33% of the DC output current. The DC output is the welding current. 5. The peak current through the diodes will also be around 100 to 105% of the DC output current. For the record, the average value of a sinusoidal waveform is 0.636 of the peak value, the RMS value is just that, the root mean square and is 0.707 of the peak value. Most multimeters will not read "true RMS" --- some do and they are more costly than others. True RMS is important if the DC equivalent heating power of a complex AC waveform is required by the measurements. This doesn't matter a DRA ( dead rodent's posterior ) in our case unless we saturate the magnetic circuit in the stator and the waveform goes all wonky. * The mention of 8 diodes in a three phase bridge will start some frowns? Look at it from a 'star' connection POV, and add two diodes to the output from the star point of the windings. Tools designed for AC operation which use the 'universal' series commutator motor config. Will behave differently on a DC supply as their design took account of the intended supply waveform --- which has now been flattened by the rectifier arrangement. Still haven't found the specs. on those diodes Brent, but I will eventually. From the readings and the intended use of the diodes, junction heat is the main enemy to defeat, and it sounds like you have taken them to a cooler place. Colin is quite right in his comment that the disconnection is not required if the diode bridge ratings are adequate. The risks associated with transient overvoltage appear to be non-existent in your particular case when no significant external inductance is involved and the field is fed by smooth DC. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2005 09:18 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: alternators Your volt meter reading the AC is showing an average, or RMS voltage. The DC is at the peak voltage from the combined wave forms so it is about 1.7 times higher. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > I checked it out last nite. At the low end of welding RPM I got > around 30 volts and at the high end I got 60 volts. Strange, as with > the DC after the diodes I got enough DC voltage to run a grinder and > light up a 120 volt bulb to normal brightness. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> Will do. >> The diodes are MR5020 and MR 5020L set in aluminium heat sinks, > made >> for a 135 amp portable welder called a "Scotty" >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > wrote: >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] >> > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators >> > >> > Brent, >> > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. >> > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard >> weld >> > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires > out >> of the >> > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the >> multimeter >> > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on > AC >> volts and >> > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not >> secured, >> > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright > arc - >> -- >> > please avoid this! >> > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also >> the diode >> > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. >> > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin >> when you >> > re-connect. >> > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads > are >> broken >> > simultaneously. >> > Terry >> > >> > >> > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my >> diode pack >> > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm > not >> actually >> > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode > pack. >> > Thanks >> > Brent > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 7506|7420|2005-04-07 10:43:20|Paul Liebenberg|Re: alternators|I don't know if this has been discussed before, but some of the heavier duty alts have their diodes separated from the casing. I think this provides easy access, but more importantly allows use of bigger diodes, massive heat sink. Pablo ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 Date: Thursday, April 7, 2005 0:51 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > I'm trying to figure out the logic behind disconnecting the diodes > when not welding, in an attempt to extend their life. > > In an alternator-welder configuration the power diodes are exposed > to > maximum forward voltage together with maximum surge current at the > instantaneous moment the arc is struck; maximum continuous current > at > a somewhat lower voltage if (or rather when !) the electrode sticks > to the workpiece; and maximum reverse voltage (back-emf inductive > spike - possibly 2 or 3x the forward voltage) at the instant the > arc > is broken. These are the worst-case scenarios these diodes must > survive during use, plus they must not exceed a specified working > temperature, as their voltage and current handling capacities are > reduced significantly (by possibly 50% or more) as the diode > junction > temperature rises. > > In marked contrast, when not welding the diodes will pass ZERO > current (if you discount the odd pico-amp or two leakage), and so > will begin the cooling-down process when no current is being drawn. > > While it is true that in your continuous-speed alternator-welder > configuration they will continue to be exposed to maximum voltage > in > their hottest state, provided they survive the first milli-second > or > two (far faster than you could ever hope to manually switch them > out > of circuit) they will be over the worst, and switching them out of > circuit after this time will do *nothing* useful to enhance their > life, compared with the hardships they endure during the welding > process itself. Personally, I'd leave the diodes 'as is'. > > Colin > > As an aside - measuring ac voltages in the manner suggested *may* > give erroneous readings (very much depends on the meter used), as > el > cheapo meters are calibrated for 50/60 Hz only - but here we are > looking at a Khz or 3. > If you're interested in the ac voltage of the windings for any > reason, I'd suggest either using a 'scope (if you can get the loan > of > one) with a simple voltage divider, or more simply measure the peak > dc output with a meter and capacitor, then calculate backwards > using > the rms equation. You'll still be in guestimate country - but > should > be accurate enough for your purposes. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 [brentswain38@h...] > > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > > Brent, > > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. > > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard > weld > > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires > out > of the > > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the > multimeter > > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on > AC > volts and > > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not > secured, > > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright > arc - > -- > > please avoid this! > > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also > the diode > > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. > > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin > when you > > re-connect. > > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads > are > broken > > simultaneously. > > Terry > > > > > > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my > diode pack > > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm > not > actually > > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. > > Thanks > > Brent > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -------------------- > ~--> > Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's > Research Hospital's > 'Thanks & Giving.' > http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/YmoolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ~-> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7507|7507|2005-04-07 11:33:40|khooper_fboats|Books/Sites on Boat System Design?|Seeking recommendations for books on designing on-board systems for 40' sailboat intended to be shorthanded. I've searched this archive and also archive of boatdesign.net but all references seem to revolve around hull design or perhaps rigging. Specifically I'd like to aquire books that do a good job discussing things like engine control, setting up wheel steering, deck design/line routing/ rope clutches. Would like to read about creative approaches to hydraulic steering ("creative" means non-powered systems perhaps using automotive brake system components). Venting & ductwork. Dealing with sewage and through-hulls. See what I mean, systems on and below deck whatever they may be. Please share your recommendations. Thx, --Hoop| 7508|7501|2005-04-07 13:08:46|Gordon Schnell|Re: metal suppliers vancouver or the island?|Carl When I bought steel in '99, I went out for bid to all the suppliers. Comportex (a broker) gave me the best prices and great service. Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7509|7420|2005-04-07 15:15:19|brentswain38|Re: alternators|Thanks Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > The readings Brent got are normal enough if the meter used is assumed to be > ordinary in its design. > I see the setup this way (via e-mail of course!). > > Across any two phases at 60 volts (at around 300 to 1000+ Hz --- so still > likely to be inside the sensible frequency response of an ordinary digital > multimeter reading average values of an AC waveform, but calibrated in RMS > for a sine wave ) : > 1. The DC load voltage output from the 6 diode or 8 * diode 3 phase bridge > rectifier setup will be close to 81 volts for a resistive load and somewhat > higher ( ~ 85 volts ) for a capacitive load. This is the open circuit > voltage and it will decay to a lower value when the welding arc is > operating. > 2. These typical figures allow for the diode voltage drops when the > rectifier is loaded. > 3. The peak inverse voltage per diode will be close to 105% of the output > voltage --- so not a problem with steady state operation. > 4. The average current through the rectifier diodes will be around 33% of > the DC output current. The DC output is the welding current. > 5. The peak current through the diodes will also be around 100 to 105% of > the DC output current. > > For the record, the average value of a sinusoidal waveform is 0.636 of the > peak value, the RMS value is just that, the root mean square and is 0.707 of > the peak value. Most multimeters will not read "true RMS" --- some do and > they are more costly than others. True RMS is important if the DC equivalent > heating power of a complex AC waveform is required by the measurements. This > doesn't matter a DRA ( dead rodent's posterior ) in our case unless we > saturate the magnetic circuit in the stator and the waveform goes all wonky. > * The mention of 8 diodes in a three phase bridge will start some frowns? > Look at it from a 'star' connection POV, and add two diodes to the output > from the star point of the windings. > Tools designed for AC operation which use the 'universal' series commutator > motor config. Will behave differently on a DC supply as their design took > account of the intended supply waveform --- which has now been flattened by > the rectifier arrangement. > Still haven't found the specs. on those diodes Brent, but I will eventually. > From the readings and the intended use of the diodes, junction heat is the > main enemy to defeat, and it sounds like you have taken them to a cooler > place. > Colin is quite right in his comment that the disconnection is not required > if the diode bridge ratings are adequate. The risks associated with > transient overvoltage appear to be non-existent in your particular case when > no significant external inductance is involved and the field is fed by > smooth DC. > > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2005 09:18 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > Your volt meter reading the AC is showing an average, or RMS voltage. The > DC is at the peak voltage from the combined wave forms so it is about 1.7 > times higher. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:21 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > > > > > > I checked it out last nite. At the low end of welding RPM I got > > around 30 volts and at the high end I got 60 volts. Strange, as with > > the DC after the diodes I got enough DC voltage to run a grinder and > > light up a 120 volt bulb to normal brightness. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> > >> Will do. > >> The diodes are MR5020 and MR 5020L set in aluminium heat sinks, > > made > >> for a 135 amp portable welder called a "Scotty" > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > >> > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 > >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > >> > > >> > Brent, > >> > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. > >> > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard > >> weld > >> > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires > > out > >> of the > >> > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the > >> multimeter > >> > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on > > AC > >> volts and > >> > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not > >> secured, > >> > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright > > arc - > >> -- > >> > please avoid this! > >> > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also > >> the diode > >> > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. > >> > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin > >> when you > >> > re-connect. > >> > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads > > are > >> broken > >> > simultaneously. > >> > Terry > >> > > >> > > >> > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my > >> diode pack > >> > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm > > not > >> actually > >> > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode > > pack. > >> > Thanks > >> > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 7510|7420|2005-04-07 15:17:43|brentswain38|Re: alternators|Thats the arrangement I have now. It also lets me check by hand the temperature of the heatsinks. So far thay have barely gotten warm.I can't see any diodes inside the alternator case being adequately cooled to work for a long time. Those kind are also not set directly in the heat sinks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > I don't know if this has been discussed before, but some of the heavier duty alts have their diodes separated from the casing. I think this provides easy access, but more importantly allows use of bigger diodes, massive heat sink. > Pablo > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > Date: Thursday, April 7, 2005 0:51 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > > > > > I'm trying to figure out the logic behind disconnecting the diodes > > when not welding, in an attempt to extend their life. > > > > In an alternator-welder configuration the power diodes are exposed > > to > > maximum forward voltage together with maximum surge current at the > > instantaneous moment the arc is struck; maximum continuous current > > at > > a somewhat lower voltage if (or rather when !) the electrode sticks > > to the workpiece; and maximum reverse voltage (back-emf inductive > > spike - possibly 2 or 3x the forward voltage) at the instant the > > arc > > is broken. These are the worst-case scenarios these diodes must > > survive during use, plus they must not exceed a specified working > > temperature, as their voltage and current handling capacities are > > reduced significantly (by possibly 50% or more) as the diode > > junction > > temperature rises. > > > > In marked contrast, when not welding the diodes will pass ZERO > > current (if you discount the odd pico-amp or two leakage), and so > > will begin the cooling-down process when no current is being drawn. > > > > While it is true that in your continuous-speed alternator-welder > > configuration they will continue to be exposed to maximum voltage > > in > > their hottest state, provided they survive the first milli-second > > or > > two (far faster than you could ever hope to manually switch them > > out > > of circuit) they will be over the worst, and switching them out of > > circuit after this time will do *nothing* useful to enhance their > > life, compared with the hardships they endure during the welding > > process itself. Personally, I'd leave the diodes 'as is'. > > > > Colin > > > > As an aside - measuring ac voltages in the manner suggested *may* > > give erroneous readings (very much depends on the meter used), as > > el > > cheapo meters are calibrated for 50/60 Hz only - but here we are > > looking at a Khz or 3. > > If you're interested in the ac voltage of the windings for any > > reason, I'd suggest either using a 'scope (if you can get the loan > > of > > one) with a simple voltage divider, or more simply measure the peak > > dc output with a meter and capacitor, then calculate backwards > > using > > the rms equation. You'll still be in guestimate country - but > > should > > be accurate enough for your purposes. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: brentswain38 [brentswain38@h...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 04:50 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators > > > > > > Brent, > > > Do one small test before relaxing on that scheme. > > > When the plug is pulled and the alt. Is spinning at your standard > > weld > > > speed, measure the voltage between any two of those three wires > > out > > of the > > > stator. Do not touch the meter probes in the process, and set the > > multimeter > > > to 200+ AC volts range. Check and re-check that the meter is on > > AC > > volts and > > > the leads are both plugged in to the meter. If the leads were not > > secured, > > > and they happen to touch together, there will be a very bright > > arc - > > -- > > > please avoid this! > > > Let me know what the reading is for the setup you have, and also > > the diode > > > types you are using in the remote rectifier arrangement. > > > This is to ensure that there is adequate reverse voltage margin > > when you > > > re-connect. > > > The disconnect as described is not a problem if all three leads > > are > > broken > > > simultaneously. > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > Great. That means I can connect the three alternator wires to my > > diode pack > > > with a standard extension cord, and to save the diodes when I'm > > not > > actually > > > welding, I can simply unplug the extension cord from the diode pack. > > > Thanks > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------- - > > ~--> > > Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's > > Research Hospital's > > 'Thanks & Giving.' > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/YmoolB/TM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > > ~-> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7511|7507|2005-04-07 15:21:31|shirleipmendes|Re: Books/Sites on Boat System Design?|Subject: [origamiboats] Books/Sites on Boat System Design? Hoop, Try "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder, and The Metal Boat Society at http://www.metalboatsociety.com/ Cheers, Roger To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 4/6/2005 ---------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 4/6/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7512|7491|2005-04-07 15:21:43|brentswain38|Re: Wave Energy|An easily accessible area in an uninsulated bilge does the icebox trick , here in the cool north. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "murraycamp" wrote: > > How about for refrigeration? > > I once read an ad for a bilge pump that ran on wave energy (mechanical > no electricity, a float on the water surface actuated the pump > mechanism)...the idea was to keep your open boat pumped out while it > was bouncing out on a mooring. > > I've wondered if something similar could circulate cold seawater > around an "icebox" and keep my veggies fresh longer without maxing > out my solar power system. I suppose the heat exchanger would get > fouled pretty quickly...? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > I have thought for a long time that the rise and fall of the tides > and the action of waves could be used in this manner. Plenty of rocky > areas at the coast to built something with the arm out in the puddle. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:28 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Wave Energy > > > > > > > > Many decades ago I read in a British Magazine about a retired > engineer > > crossing the Atlantic. He hooked up a larger version of the > mechanism > > of a self winding watch to a generator and got more power than he > could > > use. He said that he had to tie the thing off most of the time to > avoid > > overcharging his batteries. > > I've often sat in calms at sea , watching the everpresent swell > and > > thinking about how easy it would be to convert that motion into a > > circular motion to run a generator, with the help of a flywheel. > There > > is a tremendous amount of 24 hour a day energy there for the > taking. > > Gears and rachet , hooked up to a series of wheels and a pendulum > > would be too noisy and prone to wear, but a series of rubber > wheels > > witha rubber bad between the pendulum and the largest wheel would > be > > quiet, long lived and easy to repair anywhere.I hope to try this > out > > soon, but I've been saying that for decades.It could be stowed > anywhere > > aboard, including out of sight in any locker. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7513|7491|2005-04-07 15:24:00|brentswain38|Re: Wave Energy|An inverted windmill is simply an electric outboard. They will give up to six amps at hull speed, I've been told. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > How about instead of a float you design your device to afix to a > mount welded into the center of the stern. From this center pivot > (think 'teeter/totter') a short pole leverarm goes athwartship out to > each side side and from each end is suspended a 'flopper-stopper' kind > of diving plane. Depending on the strength of your gear, you could up > the size of the planes so as to develope some extraordinary torque > with only a slight rocking of the ship. With each side, sticking out > only far enough to clear the topsides,(if you mount inboard and high) > or whatever length you find convenient if mounted astern and low, you > could rev up some serious power, even in a slip. One freebie side > effect would be the stabilization and roll rate reduction at anchor > :). If the levers are designed to be quickly removable, the whole > apparatus could be stored below when desired. When sailing use the > towed propeller generator . > > If you frequently anchor where there is a current or tide of any note, > perhaps an inverted 'windmill' type system that casn be easily affixed > to the stern or removed when desired, and designed to swing around so > that its always aligned with the flow would do the trick :) As long as > you've got a big enough battery bank and a good inverter, between the > wind gen, the water gen, and the 'rock&roll" gen, you should be up to > your anodes in electricity :) > > heheh > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > > > > like you see in a universal joint. In fact they are available > with the > > > Roller Cam Clutch in the same housing as the needle bearings. What > > they do > > > is grip a smooth hardened shaft in one direction only, and freewheel > > in the > > > other. Absolutely silent. > > > > also available from automotive transmission shops, typically called > > an anti-reverse clutch, used in an auto so one of the clutch baskets > > will only go forward, very robust, and is built just like a regular > > ball bearing with inner and outer races so shaft material isn't an > > issue, they do require a keyway though. > > The only difference going from your description, is that they have a > > series of 'ramps' on the inside of the outer race, and small flat > > springs to keep the rollers at the 'open' end of the ramp except when > > the shaft starts to turn the other way, then they jamb up and lock the > > two halves together. Also fairly cheap, and surprisingly strong. > > > > > > ken. | 7514|7514|2005-04-07 15:27:50|brentswain38|Around the world on Viski|I just read a great book, one of the best ever, It's called "Around the World on Viski." The author Don Shore , a retired schoolteacher from Nanaimo,built and sailed one of my 36 footers around the world in the late 90's. It was a hard book to put down and ,being recent, it was a good source of relatively current info on cruising various parts of the world. His email addres is svviski@... Brent| 7515|7501|2005-04-07 15:39:27|jericoera|Re: metal suppliers vancouver or the island?|Thanks much! Carl --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Schnell wrote: > Carl > When I bought steel in '99, I went out for bid to all the suppliers. Comportex (a broker) gave me the best prices and great service. > Gord > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7516|7516|2005-04-07 16:51:13|rcook222003|Welding heat distortion|Hi All, I have gone through the archives of discussions on wellding. I have a qustion that I did not fine there. And that is assuming the the appropriate shills are there is there a benefit from a heat distortion point of view for choosing stick, MIG or TIG. I am fortunate to have any kind of wellding equipment available to me.A good friend with a tremendous welding background recommends that he teaches me TIG. He said done correctly it generates the least heat distortion potential. It did not matter if it was aluminum or steel. I am leaning towards steel for my next sailboat. I have heard from other sources the MIG would be the best. I know a number the the welders in the group prefer Stick. Any light on this would be super. Thanks, Ron Cook| 7519|7516|2005-04-07 21:10:24|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding heat distortion|Given a choice I find that Tig is the most fun. You have such great control over the weld puddle that you can easily fill gaps and uneven joints. On aluminum repair jobs I have often replaced missing chunks just by filling it all in with weld. I've even welded around an open hole when needed. I find the claim that Tig would produce less distortion very difficult to believe. On thin materials you usually don't use filler metal with Tig and that does produce low distortion. However on 3/16" or 1/4" material the heat is not nearly as concentrated as it is with stick or Mig, so you heat more area, weld more slowly, and consequently get more distortion. Less heat = less distortion with any method. Unless of course you want to preheat the whole thing up before you start welding! So Mig with the proper size wire should produce the least distortion because the welding speed, and total heat will be less. If you read through the messages here you'll see that I have said over and over again DO NOT use 0.035" welding wire if you want guaranteed sound welds with Mig. Use 0.045" wire AND a commercial duty welder, preferably one rate at least 200 amps. You won't be welding at that current but small Mig welders all produce cold starts, except in the hands of a real expert. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "rcook222003" To: Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > > Hi All, > > I have gone through the archives of discussions on wellding. I have a > qustion that I did not fine there. And that is assuming the the > appropriate shills are there is there a benefit from a heat distortion > point of view for choosing stick, MIG or TIG. > > I am fortunate to have any kind of wellding equipment available to > me.A good friend with a tremendous welding background recommends that > he teaches me TIG. He said done correctly it generates the least heat > distortion potential. It did not matter if it was aluminum or steel. I > am leaning towards steel for my next sailboat. I have heard from other > sources the MIG would be the best. I know a number the the welders in > the group prefer Stick. > > Any light on this would be super. > > Thanks, > > Ron Cook > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7520|7491|2005-04-07 21:24:08|blueiceicle|Re: Wave Energy|Wave energy to keep it cool I think that would be a worthwile idea to look into for anyone in the building phase. Maybe if one were to make a small compartment in the bottom of the skeg for the sole purpose fresh water cooling, other then the motor. As its been mentioned a float connected to a small pump, something like a gas pump on a v8. Of course you would have to modify it or use something else entirly, but i believe the concept is sound. Use the lowest part of the skeg, maybe 1-2 cubic feet, and circulate the cold water to through the ice box. It should work well in northern waters. Just a thought . Regards Jesse > How about for refrigeration? > > I once read an ad for a bilge pump that ran on wave energy (mechanical > no electricity, a float on the water surface actuated the pump > mechanism)...the idea was to keep your open boat pumped out while it > was bouncing out on a mooring. > > I've wondered if something similar could circulate cold seawater > around an "icebox" and keep my veggies fresh longer without maxing > out my solar power system. I suppose the heat exchanger would get > fouled pretty quickly...? > | 7521|7516|2005-04-07 22:13:08|Henri Naths|Re: Welding heat distortion|Gary, In all due respects, Your wrong about the .035 wire. You have been proven wrong by a few people including me, it's a welding procedure that the Canadian Welding Bureau approves and it abides under very strict codes for all shipbuilding and in accordance to asme. That passes the strict standards set by Lloyds of London for the Canadian Coast Guard , it should be good enough for you and me. H. ps learn to weld to cwb standards and all your weld are guaranteed...(to the original parent metal tensile strength) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: 07 April, 2005 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > Given a choice I find that Tig is the most fun. You have such great > control > over the weld puddle that you can easily fill gaps and uneven joints. On > aluminum repair jobs I have often replaced missing chunks just by filling > it > all in with weld. I've even welded around an open hole when needed. > > I find the claim that Tig would produce less distortion very difficult to > believe. On thin materials you usually don't use filler metal with Tig > and > that does produce low distortion. However on 3/16" or 1/4" material the > heat is not nearly as concentrated as it is with stick or Mig, so you heat > more area, weld more slowly, and consequently get more distortion. Less > heat = less distortion with any method. Unless of course you want to > preheat the whole thing up before you start welding! > > So Mig with the proper size wire should produce the least distortion > because > the welding speed, and total heat will be less. > > If you read through the messages here you'll see that I have said over and > over again DO NOT use 0.035" welding wire if you want guaranteed sound > welds > with Mig. Use 0.045" wire AND a commercial duty welder, preferably one > rate > at least 200 amps. You won't be welding at that current but small Mig > welders all produce cold starts, except in the hands of a real expert. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "rcook222003" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:50 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have gone through the archives of discussions on wellding. I have a >> qustion that I did not fine there. And that is assuming the the >> appropriate shills are there is there a benefit from a heat distortion >> point of view for choosing stick, MIG or TIG. >> >> I am fortunate to have any kind of wellding equipment available to >> me.A good friend with a tremendous welding background recommends that >> he teaches me TIG. He said done correctly it generates the least heat >> distortion potential. It did not matter if it was aluminum or steel. I >> am leaning towards steel for my next sailboat. I have heard from other >> sources the MIG would be the best. I know a number the the welders in >> the group prefer Stick. >> >> Any light on this would be super. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ron Cook >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7522|7514|2005-04-08 08:40:44|Phil S.|Re: Around the world on Viski|Hey Brent, I got an error message on that e-mail you posted for Mr. Shore. Any idea on how to order his book? Thanks Phil| 7523|7523|2005-04-08 11:40:52|Michael|Tahitiana|Hi every one I` a new member to this group. I`m looking for "Tahitiana" plans preferable in Origami format, done searches through the messages but nothing specific as yet, can anyone help? Regards Michael UK resident| 7524|7523|2005-04-08 12:08:45|khooper_fboats|Re: Tahitiana|There are two pages of hits in the "other" archive: http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Here's the URL for the search specifically (all on one line): http://www.crazyface.net/cgi-bin/htsearch?restrict=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crazyface.net%2Forigamiboats%2F;exclude=;config=htdig;method=and;format=builtin-long;sort=score;words=tahitiana;page=1%20HTTP/1.1 Evidently there is an entire Yahoo group devoted to that boat: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tahitiana/ Cheers, --Hoop --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Hi every one > > I` a new member to this group. I`m looking for "Tahitiana" plans > preferable in Origami format, done searches through the messages but > nothing specific as yet, can anyone help? > > Regards Michael UK resident | 7525|7420|2005-04-08 12:46:03|sae140|Re: alternators|Hi Terry > Across any two phases at 60 volts (at around 300 to 1000+ Hz .... I suspect Brent's alternator will be revolving a *lot* faster than that whilst welding - probably between 2 and 3K ? > The risks associated with transient overvoltage appear to be non- existent in your particular case when no significant external inductance is involved Internal inductance - that's what does the damage here. Re: TIG welding - Ron - a nice technique, but a tad slow for boat- building - you may also get shielding gas problems on an exposed site. Colin| 7526|7526|2005-04-08 13:48:04|Jim Ragsdale|Alternate Rigs|What kind of alternate rigs can you put on a BS 36? I have seen some junk rigs, and I have been thinking about a schooner rig. The schooner looks interesting for a cruising boat. This site seems to be a proponent for a simplified schooner rig on a cruising boat and lists some good points. http://www.kastenmarine.com/gaff_rig.htm A few points I was considering: 1. Lower center of effort on the sails 2. Shorter masts for bridge clearance 3. Smaller sails for easier short handed sailiing 4. Would look really cool :) 5. Not many schooners around anymore, unique What do all the sailing veterans have to say? Comments Brent? Do you think it would be easier/harder, cheap/expensive to rig? From what I understand, a gaf rig will loose some windward ability, but I would think some of the advantages would overcome this. Thanks, Jim Ragsdale [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7527|7516|2005-04-08 14:33:02|Richard Till|Re: Welding heat distortion|Debaters, I have been pressure welding since 1967 and now instruct in the trades. To sum this up from a practical and technical perspective: wire diameter is not the issue--proceedure is the issue. Use the correct settings for the the application and material and the weld will have complete integrity. The wheight of evidence from the most rigorous testing proceedures bears this out from a variety of authorities worldwide. rt >From: "Henri Naths" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:12:35 -0600 > >Gary, >In all due respects, Your wrong about the .035 wire. You have been proven >wrong by a few people including me, it's a welding procedure that the >Canadian Welding Bureau approves and it abides under very strict codes for >all shipbuilding and in accordance to asme. That passes the strict >standards >set by Lloyds of London for the Canadian Coast Guard , it should be good >enough for you and me. >H. >ps learn to weld to cwb standards and all your weld are guaranteed...(to >the original parent metal tensile strength) > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gary H. Lucas" >To: >Sent: 07 April, 2005 7:10 PM >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > > > > > Given a choice I find that Tig is the most fun. You have such great > > control > > over the weld puddle that you can easily fill gaps and uneven joints. >On > > aluminum repair jobs I have often replaced missing chunks just by >filling > > it > > all in with weld. I've even welded around an open hole when needed. > > > > I find the claim that Tig would produce less distortion very difficult >to > > believe. On thin materials you usually don't use filler metal with Tig > > and > > that does produce low distortion. However on 3/16" or 1/4" material the > > heat is not nearly as concentrated as it is with stick or Mig, so you >heat > > more area, weld more slowly, and consequently get more distortion. Less > > heat = less distortion with any method. Unless of course you want to > > preheat the whole thing up before you start welding! > > > > So Mig with the proper size wire should produce the least distortion > > because > > the welding speed, and total heat will be less. > > > > If you read through the messages here you'll see that I have said over >and > > over again DO NOT use 0.035" welding wire if you want guaranteed sound > > welds > > with Mig. Use 0.045" wire AND a commercial duty welder, preferably one > > rate > > at least 200 amps. You won't be welding at that current but small Mig > > welders all produce cold starts, except in the hands of a real expert. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "rcook222003" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:50 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > > > > >> > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I have gone through the archives of discussions on wellding. I have a > >> qustion that I did not fine there. And that is assuming the the > >> appropriate shills are there is there a benefit from a heat distortion > >> point of view for choosing stick, MIG or TIG. > >> > >> I am fortunate to have any kind of wellding equipment available to > >> me.A good friend with a tremendous welding background recommends that > >> he teaches me TIG. He said done correctly it generates the least heat > >> distortion potential. It did not matter if it was aluminum or steel. I > >> am leaning towards steel for my next sailboat. I have heard from other > >> sources the MIG would be the best. I know a number the the welders in > >> the group prefer Stick. > >> > >> Any light on this would be super. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Ron Cook > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Don't just Search. Find! http://search.sympatico.msn.ca/default.aspx The new MSN Search! Check it out!| 7528|7528|2005-04-08 15:25:47|jfpacuas|Lengthening aluminum masts|Hi Folks, I have the opportunity to acquire an aluminum mast for my BS26 project for nearly nothing. I haven't seen it (its 600 miles away), but I have "eyes" out there helping m e scrounge. I'm told that its 30 feet (not sure if this is an estimate), but I need 33. At this point I don't know the cross-sectional shape. Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? I envision some sort of sleeve arrangement as has been described in steel. I would think the shape/size of the mast extrusion may cause some problems. I have also considered a highly modified tabernacle, maybe in conjunction with lengthening the mast. If it doesn't work or is more trouble than it is worth I can always go back to the tree I already have scoped out to do the job. Cheers Paul| 7529|7507|2005-04-08 16:17:46|seeratlas|Re: Books/Sites on Boat System Design?|This may sound a bit trite, but i would start with Brent's book. Here's my reasoning' Since you've found this site, and taken the trouble to read some of the archives, you've got a sense of the basic philosophy of this group, KISS and use what works, not what someone wants to sell you. For myself its a lot like shopping for computers, There's a ton of state of the art , gee whiz bang equipt out there that you can spend hours and hours trying to figure out how to apply to doing something useful..on the other hand, you could start by focusing in on what it is you want to do. If you keep your mind on the objective (as opposed to the process), then chose the equipt or techniques that can get that job done in the simplest i.e. usually the most reliable fashion, then you are way ahead of the game. I've been in and around boats most of my life. Read probably close to a hundred books on small yacht construction thru outfitting, thru sailing etc., and spent god knows how much time out on the water. I was therefore AMAZED at how significantly the number of ideas, concepts and common sense suggestions contained in Brent's book has effected my thinking on my next boat. To be frank, I was beginning to think I had it all pretty much 'down' LOL. Bent's book, in conjunction with his and the other people in this group's contributions, have pretty much caused a pretty radical shift in my planning on the next (and what I hope will be my last) boat. Having said that, I'd take a look at the following books: "Your Boat's Electrical System" by Miller& Maloney "Deep Sea Sailing" by Errol Bruce "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" by Don Street (a real 'wildman' of the sea hehe) "Handyman Afloat and Ashore" by Ken Bramham "The Coastal Cruiser" by Tony Gibbs "Wandering under Sail" by Eric Hiscock if you can find it, "Practical Ferrocement boatbuilding" by Jay Benford" -note forget the ferro, but some of his interior design suggestions as well as useful tool construction is informative "Single Handed Cruising and Sailing" by Frank Mulville "Singlehanded Sailing" by Richard Henderson Lin and Larry Pardey's "The Self-Sufficient Sailor" and lastly "Spurr's Boatbook-Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat" by Bruce Bingham that should get you started. For engine/transmission options engineering, as well as subsystems (hydraulics for winching, dive compressor, battery charging systems of various types, I don't know that you're going to do any better than the first hand information you can get from the folks on this site. Take a look at Gord's photos of his engineering on his own 40 footer, "Amazing Grace" for example. Brent's R&D on his 'onboard alternator welder' with the input of our crack EE types here is pretty much cutting edge (sorry couldn't resist:) As for wheel steering, if you're considering Brent's 40 footer, I'd look long and hard at going his suggested toggle stick route. The advantages of the outboard stern/skeg hung rudder are convincing, especially when you consider the winddriven autopilot/trim tab setup. If you are a true 'sailor' you cannot beat the 'feel' of a tiller. His joggle stick inside steering coupled with an inside weather protected and extremely energy efficient (as well as inexpensive) autopilot just seems to make a ton of sense to me. On my last boat, I spent a LOT of money setting up a big hydraulic wheel system with a BIG Wagner autopilot, which in fact did prove itself under life threatening conditions on several occasions. On the other hand, it had no 'feel' whatsoever. PLus, aside from the considerable expense and complexity, any work on the rudder required hauling the boat, any work on the shaft required hauling the boat, to pull the rudder, to pull the shaft...NOT the hot setup for remote idylillic anchorages. The most day to day useful benefit of the previous boat's installation was the ability to go anwhere on the boat with the remote and steer from wherever you wanted to be, including up the mast for a better look at tight constricted inlets, with subsurface obstacles. HOWEVER, with a several hundred dollar 'autotiller" brent's setup would do EACTLY THE SAME THING!! and I spent far more than that just for hydraulic lines :) Seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Seeking recommendations for books on > designing on-board systems for 40' > sailboat intended to be shorthanded. > I've searched this archive and also > archive of boatdesign.net but all > references seem to revolve around > hull design or perhaps rigging. > > Specifically I'd like to aquire books > that do a good job discussing things > like engine control, setting up wheel > steering, deck design/line routing/ > rope clutches. Would like to read > about creative approaches to hydraulic > steering ("creative" means non-powered > systems perhaps using automotive > brake system components). Venting & > ductwork. Dealing with sewage and > through-hulls. See what I mean, systems > on and below deck whatever they may be. > > Please share your recommendations. > > Thx, > > --Hoop | 7530|7528|2005-04-08 16:41:09|richytill|Re: Lengthening aluminum masts|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I have the opportunity to acquire an aluminum mast for my BS26 > project for nearly nothing. I haven't seen it (its 600 miles away), > but I have "eyes" out there helping m e scrounge. > > I'm told that its 30 feet (not sure if this is an estimate), but I > need 33. At this point I don't know the cross-sectional shape. > > Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, > does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? I envision some > sort of sleeve arrangement as has been described in steel. I would > think the shape/size of the mast extrusion may cause some problems. I > have also considered a highly modified tabernacle, maybe in > conjunction with lengthening the mast. > > If it doesn't work or is more trouble than it is worth I can always > go back to the tree I already have scoped out to do the job. > > Cheers > > Paul | 7531|7528|2005-04-08 16:44:52|richytill|Re: Lengthening aluminum masts|Paul, I have a spare mast if anyone else is looking for one. The pole is round and tapered aluminium. The shiv box is made up and the base is welded on. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I have the opportunity to acquire an aluminum mast for my BS26 > project for nearly nothing. I haven't seen it (its 600 miles away), > but I have "eyes" out there helping m e scrounge. > > I'm told that its 30 feet (not sure if this is an estimate), but I > need 33. At this point I don't know the cross-sectional shape. > > Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, > does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? I envision some > sort of sleeve arrangement as has been described in steel. I would > think the shape/size of the mast extrusion may cause some problems. I > have also considered a highly modified tabernacle, maybe in > conjunction with lengthening the mast. > > If it doesn't work or is more trouble than it is worth I can always > go back to the tree I already have scoped out to do the job. > > Cheers > > Paul | 7532|7507|2005-04-08 16:46:01|jericoera|Re: Books/Sites on Boat System Design?|If you want to buy one book that has it all for the rich and the poor, and is practical and packed with picttures and knowledge,buy OFFSHORE CRUISNG ENCYCLOPEDIA by Linda and Steve Dashew. Next to Brent's boat plans, this book is one of the best things I have purchased recently. It isn't going to make you an offshore sailor without experince, but it is going to give you a great foundation of things to think about regarding equipment you don't need and that which is necessary as well as thoughts about layout and design--an awesome book and a hardcover. The dashew's have many other books at www.setsail.com nice reference material to compliment your book from brent. Certainly whetehr you are a novice or not , at some point you are going to neeed to make reference to something, and I doubt this book is in the library. Cheers Carl mcIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > This may sound a bit trite, but i would start with Brent's book. > Here's my reasoning' > Since you've found this site, and taken the trouble to read some of > the archives, you've got a sense of the basic philosophy of this > group, KISS and use what works, not what someone wants to sell you. > > For myself its a lot like shopping for computers, There's a ton of > state of the art , gee whiz bang equipt out there that you can spend > hours and hours trying to figure out how to apply to doing something > useful..on the other hand, you could start by focusing in on what it > is you want to do. If you keep your mind on the objective (as opposed > to the process), then chose the equipt or techniques that can get that > job done in the simplest i.e. usually the most reliable fashion, then > you are way ahead of the game. > > I've been in and around boats most of my life. Read probably close to > a hundred books on small yacht construction thru outfitting, thru > sailing etc., and spent god knows how much time out on the water. > > I was therefore AMAZED at how significantly the number of ideas, > concepts and common sense suggestions contained in Brent's book has > effected my thinking on my next boat. To be frank, I was beginning to > think I had it all pretty much 'down' LOL. Bent's book, in conjunction > with his and the other people in this group's contributions, have > pretty much caused a pretty radical shift in my planning on the next > (and what I hope will be my last) boat. > > Having said that, I'd take a look at the following books: > "Your Boat's Electrical System" by Miller& Maloney > "Deep Sea Sailing" by Errol Bruce > "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" by Don Street (a real 'wildman' of the sea hehe) > "Handyman Afloat and Ashore" by Ken Bramham > "The Coastal Cruiser" by Tony Gibbs > "Wandering under Sail" by Eric Hiscock > if you can find it, "Practical Ferrocement boatbuilding" by Jay > Benford" -note forget the ferro, but some of his interior design > suggestions as well as useful tool construction is informative > > "Single Handed Cruising and Sailing" by Frank Mulville > "Singlehanded Sailing" by Richard Henderson > Lin and Larry Pardey's "The Self-Sufficient Sailor" > and lastly > "Spurr's Boatbook-Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat" by Bruce Bingham > > that should get you started. > > For engine/transmission options engineering, as well as subsystems > (hydraulics for winching, dive compressor, battery charging systems of > various types, I don't know that you're going to do any better than > the first hand information you can get from the folks on this site. > Take a look at Gord's photos of his engineering on his own 40 footer, > "Amazing Grace" for example. Brent's R&D on his 'onboard alternator > welder' with the input of our crack EE types here is pretty much > cutting edge (sorry couldn't resist:) > > As for wheel steering, if you're considering Brent's 40 footer, I'd > look long and hard at going his suggested toggle stick route. The > advantages of the outboard stern/skeg hung rudder are convincing, > especially when you consider the winddriven autopilot/trim tab setup. > If you are a true 'sailor' you cannot beat the 'feel' of a tiller. His > joggle stick inside steering coupled with an inside weather protected > and extremely energy efficient (as well as inexpensive) autopilot just > seems to make a ton of sense to me. On my last boat, I spent a LOT of > money setting up a big hydraulic wheel system with a BIG Wagner > autopilot, which in fact did prove itself under life threatening > conditions on several occasions. On the other hand, it had no 'feel' > whatsoever. PLus, aside from the considerable expense and complexity, > any work on the rudder required hauling the boat, any work on the > shaft required hauling the boat, to pull the rudder, to pull the > shaft...NOT the hot setup for remote idylillic anchorages. The most > day to day useful benefit of the previous boat's installation was the > ability to go anwhere on the boat with the remote and steer from > wherever you wanted to be, including up the mast for a better look at > tight constricted inlets, with subsurface obstacles. HOWEVER, with a > several hundred dollar 'autotiller" brent's setup would do EACTLY THE > SAME THING!! and I spent far more than that just for hydraulic lines :) > > Seer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > Seeking recommendations for books on > > designing on-board systems for 40' > > sailboat intended to be shorthanded. > > I've searched this archive and also > > archive of boatdesign.net but all > > references seem to revolve around > > hull design or perhaps rigging. > > > > Specifically I'd like to aquire books > > that do a good job discussing things > > like engine control, setting up wheel > > steering, deck design/line routing/ > > rope clutches. Would like to read > > about creative approaches to hydraulic > > steering ("creative" means non-powered > > systems perhaps using automotive > > brake system components). Venting & > > ductwork. Dealing with sewage and > > through-hulls. See what I mean, systems > > on and below deck whatever they may be. > > > > Please share your recommendations. > > > > Thx, > > > > --Hoop | 7533|7526|2005-04-08 16:50:47|seeratlas|Re: Alternate Rigs|Jim, I'm going schooner on my slightly oversized 42 for a lot of the same reasons, and a few completely personal ones :). "Ole Ben" here may have more schooner sailing experience than most and would be a good man to correspond with amongst some of the others here. Just realize, you're going to be doing some serious tradeoff's as opposed to Brent's 'tried and true' sloop rig, mainly complexity, weight and expense. My own current thinking is a variation on the Wharram 'softwing' gaff rig using trackless smooth poles for masts and wrap around sails. Both masts are engineered to be lowerable for canal transit and stowage in europe, and the sprit similarly designed to be raised/removed and replaced with a substantial bow 'bumper' for lack of a better term, for the same usage. This all requires some rather extensive modification from the basic std. hull and deck so just realize its not a matter of just runnign out and sticking another stick on the top so to speak :) You could do the same thing with a ketch but I have to agree with Brent that a good sloop makes a lot more sense than a ketch on pretty much any point of sail, until you get to such a size that a divided rig becomes a physical necessity, as opposed to an aesthetic choice. My working sail area will run to just about 1100 sq. ft. (I'd rather reef a little earlier than screw around shorthanded with ballooners, spinaker's etc.) Lastly you're right :) nothing like a well balanced schooner rig to bring out the salt in your blood :) heheh. Mine will be a black or very dark blue hull with a LOT of stainless, including perhaps the bowsprit. With the dark sails up, on a beam reach in a freshening breeze she should present a not totally unpleasing aspect to the eye:). Now just so you know, I've got maybe a thousand hours or so sailing experience in an old Alden classic schooner (one of the reasons i'm so into trying to lower the amount of 'string' i have to play with to single hand my boat :) and you have to be aware of the limitations of short handing a schooner of any size. On the other hand, if you want to bring some friends along, they'll all have plenty to do to keep em busy :) LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ragsdale" wrote: > What kind of alternate rigs can you put on a BS 36? I have seen some junk rigs, and I have been thinking about a schooner rig. The schooner looks interesting for a cruising boat. This site seems to be a proponent for a simplified schooner rig on a cruising boat and lists some good points. > http://www.kastenmarine.com/gaff_rig.htm > > A few points I was considering: > 1. Lower center of effort on the sails > 2. Shorter masts for bridge clearance > 3. Smaller sails for easier short handed sailiing > 4. Would look really cool :) > 5. Not many schooners around anymore, unique > > What do all the sailing veterans have to say? Comments Brent? Do you think it would be easier/harder, cheap/expensive to rig? From what I understand, a gaf rig will loose some windward ability, but I would think some of the advantages would overcome this. > > Thanks, > Jim Ragsdale > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7534|7534|2005-04-08 18:31:00|murraycamp|another alternative energy source?|The recent discussion on wave energy made me curious about people's opinions on pedal generators. I live at anchor without an engine and rely on my solar panel for electricity but I would like a little bit more, maybe a bit of lap-top time or some amateur radio. My girlfriend is active in the cycling community and suggested a pedal generator. From a quick look on the net it seems like the essentials are a fly wheel (to smooth out 'peaky' human rpm's) and a low rpm generator (available commercially or buildable by adding more magnets to something like a washing machine motor...(permanent magnet motor) i'm seeing numbers like 150 watts sustainable for a 30 minute session...seems like if a couple each took a half hour turn daily you could top the batteries up quite a bit, and maybe keep your cardio conditioning up on a long passage i'm thinking of making a removable recumbent version that would clamp in place in front of a seat in my cabin or maybe on deck in nice weather....i'd love to hear any feedback or comments from the technically minded DIY boat crowd http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_bicycle.html murray| 7535|7491|2005-04-08 18:47:58|kendall|Re: Wave Energy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Yep, except the ones you are describing are much larger in diameter. Also > called a 'Sprag' clutch. The reason I suggested the Torringtons is because > they don't need a key and only a smooth hardened shaft. The 3/4" shaft size > fits in a 1" bore as I recall. that makes it easy to get a standard gear or > pulley reamed to size. The bore must be very accurate -0.0000 +0.0005" > > Gary H. Lucas > All good points, I just never liked anything that rode directly on the shaft, especially if it's a one off, most often if the bearing goes, it takes the shaft with it. I build a lot of things just to see how well they'd work, or to see if a mod is viable, and I always try to keep components seperate, so if something goes it won't take something else with it, turning a true shaft is easy, cutting a keyway is easy, Building that same shaft having it hardened and remain true is not easy or cheap. (have lathe and mill, but no heat treat capabilities) Also, having run a garage for years, I have tons of auto parts stocked up. If I were to build something for sale, I'd use your clutch, but for one off/experimentation, I'd stick with the auto sprag/AR clutch. Ken.| 7536|7534|2005-04-08 19:21:54|kendall|Re: another alternative energy source?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "murraycamp" wrote: > > The recent discussion on wave energy made me curious about people's opinions on > pedal generators. > > I live at anchor without an engine and rely on my solar panel for electricity but I > would like a little bit more, maybe a bit of lap-top time or some amateur radio. My > girlfriend is active in the cycling community and suggested a pedal generator. > > From a quick look on the net it seems like the essentials are a fly wheel (to smooth > out 'peaky' human rpm's) and a low rpm generator (available commercially or > buildable by adding more magnets to something like a washing machine > motor...(permanent magnet motor) > > i'm seeing numbers like 150 watts sustainable for a 30 minute session...seems like > if a couple each took a half hour turn daily you could top the batteries up quite a > bit, and maybe keep your cardio conditioning up on a long passage > > i'm thinking of making a removable recumbent version that would clamp in place > in front of a seat in my cabin or maybe on deck in nice weather....i'd love to hear > any feedback or comments from the technically minded DIY boat crowd > > http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_bicycle.html > > murray sounds like a workable idea, I used to live in a real backwoods area out west, running power would have taken over $5000, so I experimented with a lot of generation methods, built a brake drum windmill that was hooked up to a bicycle, and it did work as well as I'd hoped, but it was not succesfull as a 'sole' power source, And it takes more energy than you'd expect, I am in good shape, used to ride a bicycle to work each day in the summer when I was a factory rat and didn't have to haul 300 pounds of tools, (40 mile round trip) so a bike is no stranger if you make it a low output version, which will reduce effort, but extend the required time to top up batteries. At the same house I made a small generator from a shovy 35amp alternator, and found that it will stall a 5hp brigs and stratton running flat out if you apply a large load. finally settled on an auto engine, turning a small generator for power, with the ac unit to provide compressed air, and the PS unit to run a couple of the big garage tools, also plumbed so I could divert the engine coolant into a radiator inside the house and garage for winter heat to back up the woodstoves. ken.| 7537|7491|2005-04-08 20:08:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Wave Energy|Ken, You'll notice I suggested a hardened shoulder bolt which is replaceable and off the shelf. I might also mention that I have about 8 machines that have been in use for 5 to 15 years, all with the original clutches. They are rated for speeds of 3000 rpm or more, and we are only talking a couple of hundred rpms at best here, so they likely would last a long time. The simple bore requirements, and single tapped hole in the end of a shaft put this squarely in the realm of the do-it-yourself guy without mechanical drafting skills or machine shop skills. But then we all have our favorite parts! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kendall" To: Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 6:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wave Energy > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> Yep, except the ones you are describing are much larger in diameter. > Also >> called a 'Sprag' clutch. The reason I suggested the Torringtons is > because >> they don't need a key and only a smooth hardened shaft. The 3/4" > shaft size >> fits in a 1" bore as I recall. that makes it easy to get a standard > gear or >> pulley reamed to size. The bore must be very accurate -0.0000 +0.0005" >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> > > All good points, I just never liked anything that rode directly on > the shaft, especially if it's a one off, most often if the bearing > goes, it takes the shaft with it. I build a lot of things just to see > how well they'd work, or to see if a mod is viable, and I always try > to keep components seperate, so if something goes it won't take > something else with it, turning a true shaft is easy, cutting a keyway > is easy, Building that same shaft having it hardened and remain true > is not easy or cheap. (have lathe and mill, but no heat treat > capabilities) Also, having run a garage for years, I have tons of auto > parts stocked up. > > If I were to build something for sale, I'd use your clutch, but for > one off/experimentation, I'd stick with the auto sprag/AR clutch. > > Ken. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7538|7507|2005-04-08 20:15:52|khooper_fboats|Re: Books/Sites on Boat System Design?|Seer, Thanks, I will look into all this literature! I already have Brent's book (should have mentioned that probably), also an older edition of Skeene's Elements which is not much help WRT the subject at hand, plus a few other books not worth mentioning really (not naming names but it rhymes with "Bruce Roberts"). I know so little that the Swain book does not seem revolutionary to me, it just seems like common sense if you're the sort of person who likes to do his own work. Not that I would have thought of any of it, and I do admire his mind--I see your point, it's just Swain's sort of thinking I'm looking for when putting together systems Swain doesn't dwell on or mention. I really want a center cockpit which doesn't necessarily imply a wheel I suppose, or hydraulics, but it does make a tiller problematic. There will be a bolt-on backup tiller of course though. I'm looking closely at the Tanton 39' twin keeler which is an untested design but has absolutely everything I want. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > This may sound a bit trite, but i would start with Brent's book. > Here's my reasoning' > Since you've found this site, and taken the trouble to read some of > the archives, you've got a sense of the basic philosophy of this > group, KISS and use what works, not what someone wants to sell you. > > For myself its a lot like shopping for computers, There's a ton of > state of the art , gee whiz bang equipt out there that you can spend > hours and hours trying to figure out how to apply to doing something > useful..on the other hand, you could start by focusing in on what it > is you want to do. If you keep your mind on the objective (as opposed > to the process), then chose the equipt or techniques that can get that > job done in the simplest i.e. usually the most reliable fashion, then > you are way ahead of the game. > > I've been in and around boats most of my life. Read probably close to > a hundred books on small yacht construction thru outfitting, thru > sailing etc., and spent god knows how much time out on the water. > > I was therefore AMAZED at how significantly the number of ideas, > concepts and common sense suggestions contained in Brent's book has > effected my thinking on my next boat. To be frank, I was beginning to > think I had it all pretty much 'down' LOL. Bent's book, in conjunction > with his and the other people in this group's contributions, have > pretty much caused a pretty radical shift in my planning on the next > (and what I hope will be my last) boat. > > Having said that, I'd take a look at the following books: > "Your Boat's Electrical System" by Miller& Maloney > "Deep Sea Sailing" by Errol Bruce > "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" by Don Street (a real 'wildman' of the sea hehe) > "Handyman Afloat and Ashore" by Ken Bramham > "The Coastal Cruiser" by Tony Gibbs > "Wandering under Sail" by Eric Hiscock > if you can find it, "Practical Ferrocement boatbuilding" by Jay > Benford" -note forget the ferro, but some of his interior design > suggestions as well as useful tool construction is informative > > "Single Handed Cruising and Sailing" by Frank Mulville > "Singlehanded Sailing" by Richard Henderson > Lin and Larry Pardey's "The Self-Sufficient Sailor" > and lastly > "Spurr's Boatbook-Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat" by Bruce Bingham > > that should get you started. > > For engine/transmission options engineering, as well as subsystems > (hydraulics for winching, dive compressor, battery charging systems of > various types, I don't know that you're going to do any better than > the first hand information you can get from the folks on this site. > Take a look at Gord's photos of his engineering on his own 40 footer, > "Amazing Grace" for example. Brent's R&D on his 'onboard alternator > welder' with the input of our crack EE types here is pretty much > cutting edge (sorry couldn't resist:) > > As for wheel steering, if you're considering Brent's 40 footer, I'd > look long and hard at going his suggested toggle stick route. The > advantages of the outboard stern/skeg hung rudder are convincing, > especially when you consider the winddriven autopilot/trim tab setup. > If you are a true 'sailor' you cannot beat the 'feel' of a tiller. His > joggle stick inside steering coupled with an inside weather protected > and extremely energy efficient (as well as inexpensive) autopilot just > seems to make a ton of sense to me. On my last boat, I spent a LOT of > money setting up a big hydraulic wheel system with a BIG Wagner > autopilot, which in fact did prove itself under life threatening > conditions on several occasions. On the other hand, it had no 'feel' > whatsoever. PLus, aside from the considerable expense and complexity, > any work on the rudder required hauling the boat, any work on the > shaft required hauling the boat, to pull the rudder, to pull the > shaft...NOT the hot setup for remote idylillic anchorages. The most > day to day useful benefit of the previous boat's installation was the > ability to go anwhere on the boat with the remote and steer from > wherever you wanted to be, including up the mast for a better look at > tight constricted inlets, with subsurface obstacles. HOWEVER, with a > several hundred dollar 'autotiller" brent's setup would do EACTLY THE > SAME THING!! and I spent far more than that just for hydraulic lines :) > > Seer | 7539|7516|2005-04-08 20:21:50|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding heat distortion|I always get this response from the experts. The experts can and do make perfect welds as you suggest, and I won't argue with that. As the person buying these welds from people that are supposed to be experts though, I have learned the hard way. I've mostly dealt with hot dip galvanized assemblies. I've seen so many absolutely gorgeous welds just fall apart after galvanizing that it is just scary. The one thing that ended this problem for me was requiring the use of 0.045" wire instead of 0.035" wire. So I have aimed my comments here at the amateur builder who is NOT an expert welder and may be tempted to use Mig because it is very fast. I can accept that the two of you that responded are far more expert than I am. So the question I have is, on the thicknesses of metal we are talking about here, how is my suggestion BAD? Will the welds be weaker? Will it take longer to produce the welds? Will there be more heat distortion? Or am I just being overly cautious? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Till" To: Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > Debaters, > > I have been pressure welding since 1967 and now instruct in the trades. > To > sum this up from a practical and technical perspective: wire diameter is > not > the issue--proceedure is the issue. Use the correct settings for the the > application and material and the weld will have complete integrity. The > wheight of evidence from the most rigorous testing proceedures bears this > out from a variety of authorities worldwide. rt > >>From: "Henri Naths" >>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To: >>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >>Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:12:35 -0600 >> >>Gary, >>In all due respects, Your wrong about the .035 wire. You have been proven >>wrong by a few people including me, it's a welding procedure that the >>Canadian Welding Bureau approves and it abides under very strict codes for >>all shipbuilding and in accordance to asme. That passes the strict >>standards >>set by Lloyds of London for the Canadian Coast Guard , it should be good >>enough for you and me. >>H. >>ps learn to weld to cwb standards and all your weld are guaranteed...(to >>the original parent metal tensile strength) >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Gary H. Lucas" >>To: >>Sent: 07 April, 2005 7:10 PM >>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >> >> >> > >> > Given a choice I find that Tig is the most fun. You have such great >> > control >> > over the weld puddle that you can easily fill gaps and uneven joints. >>On >> > aluminum repair jobs I have often replaced missing chunks just by >>filling >> > it >> > all in with weld. I've even welded around an open hole when needed. >> > >> > I find the claim that Tig would produce less distortion very difficult >>to >> > believe. On thin materials you usually don't use filler metal with Tig >> > and >> > that does produce low distortion. However on 3/16" or 1/4" material >> > the >> > heat is not nearly as concentrated as it is with stick or Mig, so you >>heat >> > more area, weld more slowly, and consequently get more distortion. >> > Less >> > heat = less distortion with any method. Unless of course you want to >> > preheat the whole thing up before you start welding! >> > >> > So Mig with the proper size wire should produce the least distortion >> > because >> > the welding speed, and total heat will be less. >> > >> > If you read through the messages here you'll see that I have said over >>and >> > over again DO NOT use 0.035" welding wire if you want guaranteed sound >> > welds >> > with Mig. Use 0.045" wire AND a commercial duty welder, preferably one >> > rate >> > at least 200 amps. You won't be welding at that current but small Mig >> > welders all produce cold starts, except in the hands of a real expert. >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "rcook222003" >> > To: >> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:50 PM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> I have gone through the archives of discussions on wellding. I have a >> >> qustion that I did not fine there. And that is assuming the the >> >> appropriate shills are there is there a benefit from a heat distortion >> >> point of view for choosing stick, MIG or TIG. >> >> >> >> I am fortunate to have any kind of wellding equipment available to >> >> me.A good friend with a tremendous welding background recommends that >> >> he teaches me TIG. He said done correctly it generates the least heat >> >> distortion potential. It did not matter if it was aluminum or steel. I >> >> am leaning towards steel for my next sailboat. I have heard from other >> >> sources the MIG would be the best. I know a number the the welders in >> >> the group prefer Stick. >> >> >> >> Any light on this would be super. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Ron Cook >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just Search. Find! http://search.sympatico.msn.ca/default.aspx The > new > MSN Search! Check it out! > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7540|7491|2005-04-08 21:33:57|Henri Naths|Re: Wave Energy|Gentlemen maybe one could glean some technology out of this site....This company get power from the up and down action of buoys. Check out the article on this website. http://www.oceanpowertechnologies.com/pdf/opta_awarded_usnavy.pdf H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kendall" To: Sent: 08 April, 2005 4:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wave Energy > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> Yep, except the ones you are describing are much larger in diameter. > Also >> called a 'Sprag' clutch. The reason I suggested the Torringtons is > because >> they don't need a key and only a smooth hardened shaft. The 3/4" > shaft size >> fits in a 1" bore as I recall. that makes it easy to get a standard > gear or >> pulley reamed to size. The bore must be very accurate -0.0000 +0.0005" >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> > > All good points, I just never liked anything that rode directly on > the shaft, especially if it's a one off, most often if the bearing > goes, it takes the shaft with it. I build a lot of things just to see > how well they'd work, or to see if a mod is viable, and I always try > to keep components seperate, so if something goes it won't take > something else with it, turning a true shaft is easy, cutting a keyway > is easy, Building that same shaft having it hardened and remain true > is not easy or cheap. (have lathe and mill, but no heat treat > capabilities) Also, having run a garage for years, I have tons of auto > parts stocked up. > > If I were to build something for sale, I'd use your clutch, but for > one off/experimentation, I'd stick with the auto sprag/AR clutch. > > Ken. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7541|7534|2005-04-08 21:38:54|seeratlas|Re: another alternative energy source?|I think the recumbent is workable, at least in the harbor, on a passage trying to stabilize it sufficiently is going to taske some thought, unless you're in the doldrums :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "murraycamp" wrote: > > The recent discussion on wave energy made me curious about people's opinions on > pedal generators. > > I live at anchor without an engine and rely on my solar panel for electricity but I > would like a little bit more, maybe a bit of lap-top time or some amateur radio. My > girlfriend is active in the cycling community and suggested a pedal generator. > > From a quick look on the net it seems like the essentials are a fly wheel (to smooth > out 'peaky' human rpm's) and a low rpm generator (available commercially or > buildable by adding more magnets to something like a washing machine > motor...(permanent magnet motor) > > i'm seeing numbers like 150 watts sustainable for a 30 minute session...seems like > if a couple each took a half hour turn daily you could top the batteries up quite a > bit, and maybe keep your cardio conditioning up on a long passage > > i'm thinking of making a removable recumbent version that would clamp in place > in front of a seat in my cabin or maybe on deck in nice weather....i'd love to hear > any feedback or comments from the technically minded DIY boat crowd > > http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_bicycle.html > > murray | 7542|7507|2005-04-08 21:47:35|seeratlas|Re: Books/Sites on Boat System Design?|In that case, I'd consider adapting something from a big outboard powered runabout. :) The auto thing sounds workable but the metalurgy might not be as favorable. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Seer, > > Thanks, I will look into all this literature! > > I already have Brent's book (should have mentioned that probably), > also an older edition of Skeene's Elements which is not much help WRT > the subject at hand, plus a few other books not worth mentioning > really (not naming names but it rhymes with "Bruce Roberts"). > > I know so little that the Swain book does not seem revolutionary to > me, it just seems like common sense if you're the sort of person who > likes to do his own work. Not that I would have thought of any of it, > and I do admire his mind--I see your point, it's just Swain's sort of > thinking I'm looking for when putting together systems Swain doesn't > dwell on or mention. > > I really want a center cockpit which doesn't necessarily imply a wheel > I suppose, or hydraulics, but it does make a tiller problematic. There > will be a bolt-on backup tiller of course though. I'm looking closely > at the Tanton 39' twin keeler which is an untested design but has > absolutely everything I want. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > This may sound a bit trite, but i would start with Brent's book. > > Here's my reasoning' > > Since you've found this site, and taken the trouble to read some of > > the archives, you've got a sense of the basic philosophy of this > > group, KISS and use what works, not what someone wants to sell you. > > > > For myself its a lot like shopping for computers, There's a ton of > > state of the art , gee whiz bang equipt out there that you can spend > > hours and hours trying to figure out how to apply to doing something > > useful..on the other hand, you could start by focusing in on what it > > is you want to do. If you keep your mind on the objective (as opposed > > to the process), then chose the equipt or techniques that can get that > > job done in the simplest i.e. usually the most reliable fashion, then > > you are way ahead of the game. > > > > I've been in and around boats most of my life. Read probably close to > > a hundred books on small yacht construction thru outfitting, thru > > sailing etc., and spent god knows how much time out on the water. > > > > I was therefore AMAZED at how significantly the number of ideas, > > concepts and common sense suggestions contained in Brent's book has > > effected my thinking on my next boat. To be frank, I was beginning to > > think I had it all pretty much 'down' LOL. Bent's book, in conjunction > > with his and the other people in this group's contributions, have > > pretty much caused a pretty radical shift in my planning on the next > > (and what I hope will be my last) boat. > > > > Having said that, I'd take a look at the following books: > > "Your Boat's Electrical System" by Miller& Maloney > > "Deep Sea Sailing" by Errol Bruce > > "The Ocean Sailing Yacht" by Don Street (a real 'wildman' of the sea > hehe) > > "Handyman Afloat and Ashore" by Ken Bramham > > "The Coastal Cruiser" by Tony Gibbs > > "Wandering under Sail" by Eric Hiscock > > if you can find it, "Practical Ferrocement boatbuilding" by Jay > > Benford" -note forget the ferro, but some of his interior design > > suggestions as well as useful tool construction is informative > > > > "Single Handed Cruising and Sailing" by Frank Mulville > > "Singlehanded Sailing" by Richard Henderson > > Lin and Larry Pardey's "The Self-Sufficient Sailor" > > and lastly > > "Spurr's Boatbook-Upgrading the Cruising Sailboat" by Bruce Bingham > > > > that should get you started. > > > > For engine/transmission options engineering, as well as subsystems > > (hydraulics for winching, dive compressor, battery charging systems of > > various types, I don't know that you're going to do any better than > > the first hand information you can get from the folks on this site. > > Take a look at Gord's photos of his engineering on his own 40 footer, > > "Amazing Grace" for example. Brent's R&D on his 'onboard alternator > > welder' with the input of our crack EE types here is pretty much > > cutting edge (sorry couldn't resist:) > > > > As for wheel steering, if you're considering Brent's 40 footer, I'd > > look long and hard at going his suggested toggle stick route. The > > advantages of the outboard stern/skeg hung rudder are convincing, > > especially when you consider the winddriven autopilot/trim tab setup. > > If you are a true 'sailor' you cannot beat the 'feel' of a tiller. His > > joggle stick inside steering coupled with an inside weather protected > > and extremely energy efficient (as well as inexpensive) autopilot just > > seems to make a ton of sense to me. On my last boat, I spent a LOT of > > money setting up a big hydraulic wheel system with a BIG Wagner > > autopilot, which in fact did prove itself under life threatening > > conditions on several occasions. On the other hand, it had no 'feel' > > whatsoever. PLus, aside from the considerable expense and complexity, > > any work on the rudder required hauling the boat, any work on the > > shaft required hauling the boat, to pull the rudder, to pull the > > shaft...NOT the hot setup for remote idylillic anchorages. The most > > day to day useful benefit of the previous boat's installation was the > > ability to go anwhere on the boat with the remote and steer from > > wherever you wanted to be, including up the mast for a better look at > > tight constricted inlets, with subsurface obstacles. HOWEVER, with a > > several hundred dollar 'autotiller" brent's setup would do EACTLY THE > > SAME THING!! and I spent far more than that just for hydraulic lines :) > > > > Seer | 7543|7516|2005-04-09 01:14:34|Henri Naths|Re: Welding heat distortion|Gary, no offence intended: I wrote; >>ps learn to weld to cwb standards and all your weld are guaranteed...(to >>the original parent metal tensile strength. Mr. Till wrote; >>procedure is the issue. Use the correct settings for the >> application and material and the weld will have complete integrity. The >> wheight of evidence from the most rigorous testing proceedures bears this >> out from a variety of authorities worldwide. rt learning to weld takes less time than debating this issue. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: 08 April, 2005 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > I always get this response from the experts. The experts can and do make > perfect welds as you suggest, and I won't argue with that. As the person > buying these welds from people that are supposed to be experts though, I > have learned the hard way. I've mostly dealt with hot dip galvanized > assemblies. I've seen so many absolutely gorgeous welds just fall apart > after galvanizing that it is just scary. The one thing that ended this > problem for me was requiring the use of 0.045" wire instead of 0.035" > wire. > So I have aimed my comments here at the amateur builder who is NOT an > expert > welder and may be tempted to use Mig because it is very fast. > > I can accept that the two of you that responded are far more expert than I > am. So the question I have is, on the thicknesses of metal we are talking > about here, how is my suggestion BAD? Will the welds be weaker? Will it > take longer to produce the welds? Will there be more heat distortion? Or > am I just being overly cautious? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Till" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:32 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion > > >> >> Debaters, >> >> I have been pressure welding since 1967 and now instruct in the trades. >> To >> sum this up from a practical and technical perspective: wire diameter is >> not >> the issue--proceedure is the issue. Use the correct settings for the the >> application and material and the weld will have complete integrity. The >> wheight of evidence from the most rigorous testing proceedures bears this >> out from a variety of authorities worldwide. rt >> >>>From: "Henri Naths" >>>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To: >>>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >>>Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:12:35 -0600 >>> >>>Gary, >>>In all due respects, Your wrong about the .035 wire. You have been proven >>>wrong by a few people including me, it's a welding procedure that the >>>Canadian Welding Bureau approves and it abides under very strict codes >>>for >>>all shipbuilding and in accordance to asme. That passes the strict >>>standards >>>set by Lloyds of London for the Canadian Coast Guard , it should be good >>>enough for you and me. >>>H. >>>ps learn to weld to cwb standards and all your weld are guaranteed...(to >>>the original parent metal tensile strength) >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Gary H. Lucas" >>>To: >>>Sent: 07 April, 2005 7:10 PM >>>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >>> >>> >>> > >>> > Given a choice I find that Tig is the most fun. You have such great >>> > control >>> > over the weld puddle that you can easily fill gaps and uneven joints. >>>On >>> > aluminum repair jobs I have often replaced missing chunks just by >>>filling >>> > it >>> > all in with weld. I've even welded around an open hole when needed. >>> > >>> > I find the claim that Tig would produce less distortion very difficult >>>to >>> > believe. On thin materials you usually don't use filler metal with >>> > Tig >>> > and >>> > that does produce low distortion. However on 3/16" or 1/4" material >>> > the >>> > heat is not nearly as concentrated as it is with stick or Mig, so you >>>heat >>> > more area, weld more slowly, and consequently get more distortion. >>> > Less >>> > heat = less distortion with any method. Unless of course you want to >>> > preheat the whole thing up before you start welding! >>> > >>> > So Mig with the proper size wire should produce the least distortion >>> > because >>> > the welding speed, and total heat will be less. >>> > >>> > If you read through the messages here you'll see that I have said over >>>and >>> > over again DO NOT use 0.035" welding wire if you want guaranteed sound >>> > welds >>> > with Mig. Use 0.045" wire AND a commercial duty welder, preferably >>> > one >>> > rate >>> > at least 200 amps. You won't be welding at that current but small Mig >>> > welders all produce cold starts, except in the hands of a real expert. >>> > >>> > Gary H. Lucas >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "rcook222003" >>> > To: >>> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:50 PM >>> > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding heat distortion >>> > >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Hi All, >>> >> >>> >> I have gone through the archives of discussions on wellding. I have a >>> >> qustion that I did not fine there. And that is assuming the the >>> >> appropriate shills are there is there a benefit from a heat >>> >> distortion >>> >> point of view for choosing stick, MIG or TIG. >>> >> >>> >> I am fortunate to have any kind of wellding equipment available to >>> >> me.A good friend with a tremendous welding background recommends that >>> >> he teaches me TIG. He said done correctly it generates the least heat >>> >> distortion potential. It did not matter if it was aluminum or steel. >>> >> I >>> >> am leaning towards steel for my next sailboat. I have heard from >>> >> other >>> >> sources the MIG would be the best. I know a number the the welders in >>> >> the group prefer Stick. >>> >> >>> >> Any light on this would be super. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> >>> >> Ron Cook >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Don't just Search. Find! http://search.sympatico.msn.ca/default.aspx The >> new >> MSN Search! Check it out! >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7544|7420|2005-04-09 06:39:16|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|Hi Colin, I agree that the rotor of the 10 pole (? most probable) unit is capable of running up to 36000 RPM, and in Brent's case it may be 1000+ Hz, I just don't know. The plus sign suffices? The issue is the measurement accuracy. I don't know if his meter's AC response will drop off from 1k up. The transient overvoltage potential relates to steady-state field and steady state machine reactance - this seems to be Brent's case. There is no field regulation, no superimposed waveform on the stator output. He feeds the field at below its maximum rating from a battery source via a series resistance with a positive temp. coefficient --- at least that was the last setup that I read. The internal inductance (and transient reactance) is relatively small, and if we are talking disconnection without transient re-strike of the arc in the external load, I don't believe it is an issue. I think there is an issue if the external circuit is inductive and transient re-strike is present. This inductance, caused by single lead and/or wide separation of electrode and work lead, or by external inductors intended to modify the arc starting characteristics, has apparently been a factor in failures. What I was considering is an electrode left in contact with the workpiece at the time of re-connection. An unlikely occurrence? Since the welding process involves frequent voluntary and involuntary arc interruption, it seems that the diode type and ratings in his case are adequate thus far. To attempt further analysis without real details is beyond me. I was more familiar with protection systems and characteristics of very much larger machines, and even that area needs a dust-off these days. My interest in the topic is the power balance of the system and I might just have to build one to look into this aspect - but not until the yacht is in the water. An interesting and useful adaption of inexpensive parts. Terry -----Original Message----- From: sae140 [mailto:colinpowell@...] Sent: Saturday, 9 April 2005 02:16 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators| 7545|7528|2005-04-09 12:38:48|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Lengthening aluminum masts|>>>>>>Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? I envision some sort of sleeve arrangement as has been described in steel. I would think the shape/size of the mast extrusion may cause some problems. I have also considered a highly modified tabernacle, maybe in conjunction with lengthening the mast.<<<<<< Before you drive the 600 miles it might pay to have the person fax or scan a footprint of the mast section. If you then decide that it is sufficient for your use, you might consider welding up a 3 foot section and add it to the bottom of the aluminum section. There are people around that can make an exact copy of the mast section in steel. The steel section will also be a great base for adding winches, boom plates, etc., by just welding on plates of steel. The three foot joint might be just the place that you want to mount the boom?? Gerald| 7546|7255|2005-04-09 12:50:24|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|>>>>>>>Best to keep the dead vegitation off your decks and down below where it can be delt with once, then forgotten about, or in your garden or fridge.<<<<<<< I would like to try one more time. I am not asking permission to put a teak deck on my boat. I am just asking how it is done? There are many many steel boats with wood decks. I haven't been on one but I understand many cruise ships have full wood decks. Sooo ..... how do the professionals attach the wood to the steel? Gerald| 7547|7255|2005-04-09 13:01:38|Carl Nostrand|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Angle iron is sometimes welded onto the deck and then drilled and taped for deck boards. We use a raised false decks allot on the commercial fishing vessel. You could also make removeable sections that clip in to the gunnel,rail, or cabin sides. Carl On Apr 9, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > >>>>>>>> Best to keep the dead vegitation off your decks and down below > where > it can be delt with once, then forgotten about, or in your garden or > fridge.<<<<<<< > > I would like to try one more time. > I am not asking permission to put a teak deck on my boat. I am just > asking how it is done? There are many many steel boats with wood decks. > I haven't been on one but I understand many cruise ships have full wood > decks. Sooo ..... how do the professionals attach the wood to the > steel? > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7548|7255|2005-04-09 15:34:20|Roger Allman|Re: Teak deck on top of steel?|Gerald, When we install teak over fiberglass we apply mastic over the deck. Then we use screws placed in the seams with large washers to pull the teak tight to the deck and hold it while the mastic sets. Once it is bonded and properly firmed the screws and washers are removed . Then the sealant is poured into the seams. Everything is sanded smooth. This process will work for a steel, however the exansion differential between steel and wood is much greater than fiberglass/wood. As such the teak will tend to crack after 1-2 years especially if it goes through a freeze-thaw cycle. One method that has worked well for us is to bolt sleepers on to the steel deck transverse to the desired direction of the teak. The sleepers must be carefully coped to the deck on the top and bottom surfaces so that the teak takes the proper curve. The bolts are put into oversized holes in the sleeper and threaded into the steel deck. This allows the teak to expand and contract independent of the steel. This method is not simple and does have some drawbacks. The most important is that condesation will form in the gap between the two decks. We have solved this problem by treating the steel with cold-tar epoxy. Then we install an expanding foam that is cut flush with the top of the sleepers after it cures. This sounds difficult but there are a number of tools in the homebuilding industry that make short work of it. Another method used by some of our competitors is to use a laminated wood product. Think of it as a special purpose plywood that has 1/4" of teak for the top layer. It is available in strips 1" wide all the way to 6" wide or as a 4'x8' sheet. Since the laminations run in various directions the expansion is much less of an issue. The material is made with waterproof glue that is thermoset (heat, pressure and steam for humidity) and will handle ocean environment. It is instelled in the traditional way. If your boat has a lot of compound curves in the decking (what boat doesn't) this method is far easier than the method we are currently using. The darwback is that 1/4" wear layer can't be refinished that many times. This is a problem on the vessels (high end charter yachts) we work on, otherwise we would have already shifted to this material. Pricewise the laminated stock is about the same as full thickness teak. --- Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > >>>>>>>Best to keep the dead vegitation off your > decks and down below > where > it can be delt with once, then forgotten about, or > in your garden or > fridge.<<<<<<< > > I would like to try one more time. > I am not asking permission to put a teak deck on my > boat. I am just > asking how it is done? There are many many steel > boats with wood decks. > I haven't been on one but I understand many cruise > ships have full wood > decks. Sooo ..... how do the professionals attach > the wood to the > steel? > Gerald > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 7549|7420|2005-04-09 20:41:16|sae140|Re: alternators|Hi Terry just came across: http://www.mit.edu/people/djperrea/Publications/Conference% 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf which is an interesting paper in it's own right, but within the paper there are some useful guidelines about the speeds and power outputs which can be extracted from auto alternators, as well as the back-emf spike problems which arise at normal and elevated voltages. Best regards Colin| 7550|7420|2005-04-09 21:23:52|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|Good one Colin. I will read shortly. The leakage reactance is large and makes current limitation unnecessary, that much I remember. Still can't find Brent's diode specs., the closest I can get is International Rectifier range in fast characteristic stud or flat-pack types. Thanks Terry -----Original Message----- From: sae140 [mailto:colinpowell@...] Sent: Sunday, 10 April 2005 10:11 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: alternators Hi Terry just came across: http://www.mit.edu/people/djperrea/Publications/Conference% 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf which is an interesting paper in it's own right, but within the paper there are some useful guidelines about the speeds and power outputs which can be extracted from auto alternators, as well as the back-emf spike problems which arise at normal and elevated voltages. Best regards Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7551|7420|2005-04-10 02:58:57|MJF107UK|Re: alternators|Hi Collin I've been following this thread also, I have an electrical background but cannont offer anything as its not my field...........excuse the pun! I'm finding very interestin though. BTW the link dose not work for me just get page not available Best regards Michael sae140 wrote: Hi Terry just came across: http://www.mit.edu/people/djperrea/Publications/Conference% 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf which is an interesting paper in it's own right, but within the paper there are some useful guidelines about the speeds and power outputs which can be extracted from auto alternators, as well as the back-emf spike problems which arise at normal and elevated voltages. Best regards Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7552|7420|2005-04-10 05:26:34|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|Hi Michael, Where the % char on the first line of the URL ends, paste the next line alongside with no spaces. Terry -----Original Message----- From: MJF107UK [mailto:mjf107uk@...] Sent: Sunday, 10 April 2005 16:29 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: alternators Hi Collin I've been following this thread also, I have an electrical background but cannont offer anything as its not my field...........excuse the pun! I'm finding very interestin though. BTW the link dose not work for me just get page not available Best regards Michael sae140 wrote: Hi Terry just came across: http://www.mit.edu/people/djperrea/Publications/Conference% 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf which is an interesting paper in it's own right, but within the paper there are some useful guidelines about the speeds and power outputs which can be extracted from auto alternators, as well as the back-emf spike problems which arise at normal and elevated voltages. Best regards Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7553|7420|2005-04-10 05:36:52|T & D CAIN|Re: alternators|Michael, I should have been more specific: The URL has been split by the mail client and / or system. The end of the link (which works fine) is the .pdf. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: MJF107UK [mailto:mjf107uk@...] Sent: Sunday, 10 April 2005 16:29 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: alternators Hi Collin I've been following this thread also, I have an electrical background but cannont offer anything as its not my field...........excuse the pun! I'm finding very interestin though. BTW the link dose not work for me just get page not available Best regards Michael sae140 wrote: Hi Terry just came across: http://www.mit.edu/people/djperrea/Publications/Conference% 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf which is an interesting paper in it's own right, but within the paper there are some useful guidelines about the speeds and power outputs which can be extracted from auto alternators, as well as the back-emf spike problems which arise at normal and elevated voltages. Best regards Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7554|7491|2005-04-10 10:56:42|kendall|Re: Wave Energy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Ken, > You'll notice I suggested a hardened shoulder bolt which is replaceable and > off the shelf. Must have missed that somehow, teach me to check email in the garage hey? Ken.| 7555|7555|2005-04-10 16:28:35|sae140|test mail|I seem to remember someone saying recently that if you surround long url's with angle brackets "<>" it keeps the url intact. So let's see if it works .... Colin| 7556|7556|2005-04-10 17:01:48|Alex Christie|reference to BS 36 Viski|Just found a small reference to someone's encounter with Don Shore, owner of BS 36 Viski: (thanks for the "Angle bracket" tip, Colin, it seems to work for keeping a URL whole) Alex| 7557|7555|2005-04-10 17:09:38|Earl Burgess|Re: test mail|Interesting article. May have missed it, didn't see anything indicating one had actually been built. If so we could emulate and try a "home-made"version. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] test mail > > > I seem to remember someone saying recently that if you surround long > url's with angle brackets "<>" it keeps the url intact. So let's see > if it works .... > > 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf> > > Colin > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7558|7556|2005-04-10 20:54:56|seeratlas|Re: reference to BS 36 Viski|I gather no working radar? One can only wonder what circumstances compelled him to be navigating in fog that dense, in an area where at least one big ship was anchored? Without some sort of radar/forward looking sonar.. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Just found a small reference to someone's encounter with Don Shore, > owner of BS 36 Viski: > > > > (thanks for the "Angle bracket" tip, Colin, it seems to work for > keeping a URL whole) > > Alex | 7559|7555|2005-04-10 21:57:42|Henri Naths|Re: test mail|Colin, go full screen then click before the 20 and back space then go small screen....H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: 10 April, 2005 2:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] test mail > > > I seem to remember someone saying recently that if you surround long > url's with angle brackets "<>" it keeps the url intact. So let's see > if it works .... > > 20Papers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf> > > Colin > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7560|7526|2005-04-10 22:45:07|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Alternate Rigs|I'm a schooner newbie so let me try to get in my head the tradeoffs and differences. From an engineering standpoint, it is two masts so you would need to beef up an extra space under the deck compared to the bermuda. The bow sprit would need some strengthening. Is there any beefing up around the chainplates on a steel boat? I don't believe I would add any extra systems to remove the bow sprit or lower the masts so I could save some effort there. What about the rigging on a schooner? Do you need spreader bars on the mast stays? How many ropes (halyards and sheets) are we talking about. Is there ways you can rig it to reduce the number? I guess there will be a couple of more booms. From my ignorant viewpoint, it looks like there may be some more rigging, but it is nothing fancy or complicated. What kind of winching or strength would be needed to handle sails on a boat this size? How big of a performance tradeoff will there be agains the stock BS? Anyone know a good book on the differenct rigs? Pros/Cons and maybe design info.| 7561|7526|2005-04-10 22:55:05|Bruce Hallman|Re: Alternate Rigs|> Anyone know a good book on the differenct rigs? Pros/Cons and maybe design > info. Phil Bolger's book _103 Sailing Rigs - Straight Talk_ is the best! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966699505/| 7562|7555|2005-04-11 00:07:57|jim dorey|Re: test mail|On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:57:31 -0600, Henri Naths wrote: > Colin, go full screen then click before the 20 and back space then go > small > screen....H. > > %20 replaces the spaces, remove it, put the space back in, everything should be fine, but there are certaincharacters that seem to ignore the <>, and just break the link anyway. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7563|7555|2005-04-11 03:20:53|sae140|Re: test mail|Thanks guys - help very much appreciated. Now if you could just explain how I could get to read a whole Yahoo Groups page on my monitor ... ? It used to be fine until they 'improved' the layout - now half of it is off the screen (using 1024x768 (even worse at 800x600) - and has no scroll bars showing) - anyone else having this problem ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:57:31 -0600, Henri Naths > wrote: > > > Colin, go full screen then click before the 20 and back space then go > > small > > screen....H. > > > > > > %20 replaces the spaces, remove it, put the space back in, everything > should be fine, but there are certaincharacters that seem to ignore the > <>, and just break the link anyway. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 7564|7555|2005-04-11 03:46:41|sae140|Re: .pdf article|What I thought was interesting about this M.I.T. article wasn't just the claim that an alternator's output could be raised by 250% - which will come as no surprise to those using alternators for welding - but that for the first time some actual numbers were being given for theoretical and experimental power output vs alternator speed vs output voltage. From how I interpret the article 40-50 volts is probably optimum for welding, and nothing is to be gained from letting the voltage fly unrestrained. The section on transient suppression (back-emf spikes to the rest of us), affirms what automotive engineers have been telling us for decades: "do NOT disconnect either battery of alternator whilst the engine is running", as a 14v alternator can generate spikes of 80 volts or so (which could easily take out the early breeds of diodes), and that at 42 volts, spikes of "hundreds of volts" would be generated. In my time in industry we always operated on the assumption that inductive spikes of at least 2 to 2.5 times the AC voltage causing them, could be expected. Seems it might be even more than this (!) The bottom line of all this (sorry to those being bored rigid by this thread) is that Brent's diodes really ought to have around a 300 volt rating if he's operating at around 100 OCV - unless some added protection is given to the diodes. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Burgess" wrote: > Interesting article. May have missed it, didn't see anything indicating one > had actually been built. If so we could emulate and try a > "home-made"version. > > Earl | 7565|7565|2005-04-11 04:07:04|sae140|Article on damage control|At the moment I'm repairing some fairly serious collision holes in the hull of a plastic tub and one of the problems I'm facing is restricted access to effect the repairs, due to the presence of an inner lining. During a search for inspiration last night, I came across: http://www.caribbeancompass.com/damagecont.htm and, although this article is primarily concerned with dealing with damage to fibreglass hulls at sea, I thought there might be some relevance to metal boats as well - as the author questions whether water-tight bulkheads have any place on a small yacht and so on ..... Imho, this article has that unmistakeable ring of extensive first-hand experience behind it, and is well worth a read. Colin| 7566|7566|2005-04-11 04:46:33|jim_both|Using a dehumidifier as watermaker?|The output is ok, the price is good, but power consumption may be a problem. Link to Sears Dehumidifier page with appliance specifications: jim_both| 7567|7567|2005-04-11 05:39:08|Michael|Materials weights|Could anyone point me in the right direction to compare sheet material weights, any thing from weight per square metre/foot to spread sheets. Many thanks Michael| 7568|7567|2005-04-11 06:14:34|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Materials weights|> Could anyone point me in the right direction to compare sheet material > weights, any thing from weight per square metre/foot to spread sheets. > > Many thanks Michael There are many free calculators. Here is one that is fairly complete: http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? url=http://www.mesteel.com/info/conversion.htm Gerald| 7569|7567|2005-04-11 08:17:52|MJF107UK|Re: Materials weights|Thanks Gerald I'll give that a try...........Michael Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > Could anyone point me in the right direction to compare sheet material > weights, any thing from weight per square metre/foot to spread sheets. > > Many thanks Michael There are many free calculators. Here is one that is fairly complete: http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? url=http://www.mesteel.com/info/conversion.htm Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7570|7567|2005-04-11 12:00:41|Henri Naths|Re: Materials weights|very nice calculator Gerald...Thanks H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: 11 April, 2005 4:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Materials weights > > >> Could anyone point me in the right direction to compare sheet > material >> weights, any thing from weight per square metre/foot to spread sheets. >> >> Many thanks Michael > > There are many free calculators. Here is one that is fairly complete: > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > url=http://www.mesteel.com/info/conversion.htm > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7571|7555|2005-04-11 12:17:50|Henri Naths|Re: test mail|Sorry Colin, with my limited knowledge of this cyber tech that is the best help I have for you.... I personally just go outlook express and get my mail downloaded... on an other matter I was wondering if there is a short course book on this subject that a person could bone up on? Thanks, Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: 11 April, 2005 1:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: test mail > > > Thanks guys - help very much appreciated. > > Now if you could just explain how I could get to read a whole Yahoo > Groups page on my monitor ... ? It used to be fine until > they 'improved' the layout - now half of it is off the screen (using > 1024x768 (even worse at 800x600) - and has no scroll bars showing) - > anyone else having this problem ? > > Colin > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: >> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:57:31 -0600, Henri Naths >> wrote: >> >> > Colin, go full screen then click before the 20 and back space > then go >> > small >> > screen....H. >> > >> > > Convergence00p583.pdf> >> >> %20 replaces the spaces, remove it, put the space back in, > everything >> should be fine, but there are certaincharacters that seem to ignore > the >> <>, and just break the link anyway. >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7572|7556|2005-04-11 15:58:38|brentswain38|Re: reference to BS 36 Viski|he later boiught a radar for what he says was 1/2 the cost of the dammage done in the collision. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I gather no working radar? > One can only wonder what circumstances compelled him to be navigating > in fog that dense, in an area where at least one big ship was > anchored? Without some sort of radar/forward looking sonar.. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Just found a small reference to someone's encounter with Don Shore, > > owner of BS 36 Viski: > > > > > > > > (thanks for the "Angle bracket" tip, Colin, it seems to work for > > keeping a URL whole) > > > > Alex | 7573|7573|2005-04-11 17:00:26|Phil S.|Finishing Steel Decks|I mentioned a while ago I would dig up the article by Trevor Robertson about building his Wylo II called the "Iron Bark" here is the relevent portion, I just hope e doesn't mind me posting it, I finished the deck with cork chips set in paint. It is a simple and effective deck treatment and I much prefer it to sand in paint. Granulated cork is available from cork tile distributors. It is used in factory floors, I believe, and is very cheap: about $A5.00 to do all the decks. Application is easy. Paint a small section of deck with epoxy primer (about 1 sq metre seems right) and while the paint is still wet, sprinkle the cork chips on thickly. Be generous with the cork. It is cheap and anyway, once the paint is dry, the unused cork can be swept up and recycled. Spreading it thickly ensures an even coverage. When the paint is hard sweep up the excess cork and give the deck a coat of thinned epoxy over the cork. This takes quite a lot of paint. I used a soft roller to apply the paint but a spray would be better. Follow this up with one or two coats of polyurethane. The cork surface at this stage is lethally sharp and hard. Flatten the sharp tops off with an orbital sander until the desired combination of anti-skid and smoothness is obtained. Go gently with the sander because you can remove a lot of cork very quickly if you are careless. The result is a low-glare deck pleasantly speckled with the brown cork. An additional benefit is that it is possible to walk on the steel decks in bare feet on the hottest day. Small repairs are easy and when major repainting is necessary it is a lot easier to sand off cork than a mixture of sand and paint. Regards Phil| 7574|7573|2005-04-12 14:41:05|..|Finishing Steel Decks|I was waiting for someone to suggest cork,I thought there was some problem with it that I did not know about,this treatment was used on the inside of steel hulls to reduce condensation, I think the cork was mixed with the paint as it would be difficult to apply the cork chips to vertical surfaces. and the awkward places. I am not sure if it is still used,maybe some other insulating granules could be used, like granulated polyurethane foam scrap. Might work for all the places that have not been foamed. Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------- Phil S wrote >I mentioned a while ago I would dig up the article by Trevor Robertson >I finished the deck with cork chips set in paint. It is a >simple and effective deck treatment and I much prefer it to sand in >paint. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7575|7573|2005-04-12 15:54:18|brentswain38|Re: Finishing Steel Decks|The paint on mycockpit floor was constantly wearing out, so i gave it a coat of epoxy tar, piled a layer of beach sand on top of the wet epoxy, let it go off, swept the excess off, then gave it another coat of epoxy tar and enamel. There is no way I'm going to wear thru the sand. It's like concrete. Cork would also be a good insulator, but it will wear if you use the boat full time. What works for a weekender and what works for full time use can be two very different things.The use of walnut shell for non skid is a good example of this.It's a marina boat solution only. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > > I mentioned a while ago I would dig up the article by Trevor Robertson > about building his Wylo II called the "Iron Bark" here is the relevent > portion, I just hope e doesn't mind me posting it, > > I finished the deck with cork chips set in paint. It is a > simple and effective deck treatment and I much prefer it to sand in > paint. Granulated cork is available from cork tile distributors. It is > used in factory floors, I believe, and is very cheap: about $A5.00 to > do all the decks. Application is easy. Paint a small section of deck > with epoxy primer (about 1 sq metre seems right) and while the paint > is still wet, sprinkle the cork chips on thickly. Be generous with the > cork. It is cheap and anyway, once the paint is dry, the unused cork > can be swept up and recycled. Spreading it thickly ensures an even > coverage. When the paint is hard sweep up the excess cork and give the > deck a coat of thinned epoxy over the cork. This takes quite a lot of > paint. I used a soft roller to apply the paint but a spray would be > better. Follow this up with one or two coats of polyurethane. The > cork surface at this stage is lethally sharp and hard. Flatten the > sharp tops off with an orbital sander until the desired combination of > anti-skid and smoothness is obtained. Go gently with the sander > because you can remove a lot of cork very quickly if you are > careless. The result is a low-glare deck pleasantly speckled with the > brown cork. An additional benefit is that it is possible to walk on > the steel decks in bare feet on the hottest day. Small repairs are > easy and when major repainting is necessary it is a lot easier to sand > off cork than a mixture of sand and paint. > > Regards > Phil | 7576|7576|2005-04-12 16:08:04|brentswain38|The " Yachtie" look|People who do a huge amount of hard work trying to maintain the " Yachtie " look told me that they have three weeks of hard work after every major passage , bringing the baot op to snuff.Admittedly , they make their living partly off such work, but for those of us who don't, letting the expecxtations of others dictate how we spend out time is blasphemy to the persuit of the hedonist religion. I remember that experience on my first boat, which was of the " decorative gingerbread boat" variety. While I was in New Zealand , after having crossed the Pacifi I overheard a couple of Kiwi Kids saying" Another one of those scruffy run down overseas boats. They must be damned lazy to let their boats look that way." i said to them " If you don't like the way my boat looks. There's the deck scrubber and there's the bucket, Start washing. When you're done that I'll have a couple of paintbrushed ready and you can give her a coat of paint." The asked " How much are you paying" I sad " Nothing. You are the one who is bothered by the look of my boat, not me.Why should I bust my ass or spend my cruising funds living up to your demands. If it bothers you so much , you can get off your asses and do something about it. No? then you are the lazy ones."| 7577|7573|2005-04-12 16:15:13|Phil S.|Re: Finishing Steel Decks|>What works for a weekender and what works for full > time use can be two very different things.< Brent, not sure if you know this but Trevor Robertson built the Iron Bark, a Wylo II, in Australia many years ago, sailed to and wintered over in Antarctica. I am also positive he did a circumnavigation in this boat. I do know that Trevor and Anne Hill, author of "Voyaging on a Small Income", were married about a year ago and have since ventured off in the Iron Bark and I believe did a circumnavigation of antarctica together. Anne in an article she wrote before she left had no complaints about the boat, other than it wasn't a Junk Rig and it was a bit heavy in the nose. Don't get me wrong I think your designs and building methods are far superior to a Wylo II, but I would never call Trevor Robertson a weekend sailor. A bit crazy maybe... regards Phil| 7578|5386|2005-04-13 04:30:41|sae140|Re: Bottom paint|Bit of feedback from one of last's year's posts ..... In the article referred to, the author states: "A gallon of the copper powder is probably 12-14 pounds." Mmmm - I wonder if he's ever actually done this ? Perhaps not. I recently took delivery of 2 kilos (4.4 lbs to those who use sensible measurements) and it would just about fill a small tea cup. A gallon of Copper powder would probably weight around 100 lbs. So now I'm wondering if the idea is taurus faeces ? Which would be a bugger seeing as I've already parted with the cash ... anyone want some copper powder ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" wrote: > Hi all, > Cruising around on the web I found a link to this site: > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html > > The main idea here is to make your own copper/epoxy bottom paint at a > fraction of the cost from commercial suppliers. > > Happy sails to you > Fred | 7579|7576|2005-04-13 07:14:26|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: The " Yachtie" look|That is just fantastic! alfredo > People who do a huge amount of hard work trying to maintain the " > Yachtie " look told me that they have three weeks of hard work after > every major passage , bringing the baot op to snuff.Admittedly , they > make their living partly off such work, but for those of us who don't, > letting the expecxtations of others dictate how we spend out time is > blasphemy to the persuit of the hedonist religion. I remember that > experience on my first boat, which was of the " decorative gingerbread > boat" variety. While I was in New Zealand , after having crossed the > Pacifi I overheard a couple of Kiwi Kids saying" Another one of those > scruffy run down overseas boats. They must be damned lazy to let their > boats look that way." i said to them " If you don't like the way my > boat looks. There's the deck scrubber and there's the bucket, Start > washing. When you're done that I'll have a couple of paintbrushed > ready and you can give her a coat of paint." The asked " How much are > you paying" > I sad " Nothing. You are the one who is bothered by the look of my > boat, not me.Why should I bust my ass or spend my cruising funds > living up to your demands. If it bothers you so much , you can get off > your asses and do something about it. No? then you are the lazy ones." > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. > Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' > http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/YmoolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7580|7573|2005-04-13 07:30:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Finishing Steel Decks|I saw SV Iron Bark anchored in Newtown River on the Isle of Wight UK a couple of years ago and there is an update to the Labrador Pilot Guide posted on the web by Trevor and Annie so they get about a bit. My understanding is that the very popular, in the UK at least, Treadmaster anti-slip deck sheeting is made from cork and nitrile rubber. That lasts well. I sailed on a boat where the owner had used rock salt sprinkled on the wet deck paint instead of cork or sand. When the paint had set, he hosed off the salt and was left with a cratered surface where the salt had dissolved. It was very anti-slip indeed. I felt one would, if doing a lot of deck work, need to wear motorcycle leathers to avoid severe lacerations. Regards, Ted| 7581|7581|2005-04-13 09:48:21|bert andjan|Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used such things extensively have mentioned your: 1)Favorite handheld grinder? 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems to be best? at least for you? Thanks, its an important investment, Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/| 7582|7581|2005-04-13 10:28:53|Bill Jaine|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Bert, Look at the length of the power cord. When the engineers start to cut costs one of the main areas that you can see is the cord, you can�t see the insides. You can bet that the tool with the longest cord is the best quality. (with a few exceptions such as routers) Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: bert andjan [mailto:bertandjan@...] Sent: 13-Apr-05 9:48 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Which hand held angle grinder to buy? Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used such things extensively have mentioned your: 1)Favorite handheld grinder? 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems to be best? at least for you? Thanks, its an important investment, Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! HYPERLINK "http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/"http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/re sources/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/o rigamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 12/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 12/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7583|7581|2005-04-13 12:57:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Bert, I have two 4½" and one 9" grinder. I buy cheap and cheerfull, usually chineses ones from the DIY sheds. They come with a one year warranty and usually a spare set of brushes. I have had several replaced under warranty due to gear failure, switch failure, brush holder failure and unknown failure. The leads have all been quite long. It is a bit tedious to have to take them back for refund or exchange, but the sheds are not too far away and they have been replaced without quibble. The last one I got came with a two year warranty but stated it was not warranted for trade or professional use so I might be questioned if I have to take it back, not that I am trade or professional but they are used like I was. I buy the cheapest grinding, cutting and flexi discs I can and if they give problems I do not buy from that source again. I had one batch of very thin 9" cutting discs that flew to pieces if I was a bit rough with them, which was too much excitment so I didn't by them again. Regards, Ted| 7584|7581|2005-04-13 13:46:07|Henri Naths|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|----- Original Message ----- From: "bert andjan" To: Sent: 13 April, 2005 7:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to > buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. > Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used > such things extensively have mentioned your: > > 1)Favorite handheld grinder? > 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? > 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? > > Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems > to be best? at least for you? > > Thanks, its an important investment, > > Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7585|7581|2005-04-13 13:51:06|Alex Christie|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|We bought a Makita 5" grinder (about $160 CDN), which was truly a good multi-purpose tool for small stuff and medium work, and not what I'd call expensive. A bigger grinder on hand I was able to borrow was the 7", which was a great boon to grinding thick steel down. Definitely a big, heavy, two-handed machine and takes some getting used to, but after a while you can get good at some pretty delicate work with it, and when working on the flat you could use the weight of the machine to your advantage. The high tip speed of the big wheel, coupled with the more powerful motor made short work of ugly jobs that would have taken all day with the 5" grinder. I should add that the high tip speed also makes short work of your skin should you touch it, all in a fraction of an eye-blink. It leaves a nice deep furrow (I think I'll wear kevlar-reinforced gloves next time!). If you are in an isolated area, I'd go for the quality tool, like Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee. On the other hand, if you can buy cheap with warranty and local service with quick turn-around, then that could be a good way to go too. A whole set of $69 heavy-duty 5" grinders appeared on the local store shelves AFTER I already bought the Makita, of course! I would have tried them out if they had come out before I made my initial purchase, but really I can't quibble over a little bit more money when the job is ready to go. Considering how important a grinder is for this work, I'd spring for the nicer machine if cost is not too much more. I found a local supplier of grinding wheels, each at a fraction of the price of other stores, and available in stacks of 5 and 10. Even though they wore out faster, I think they were a better over-all deal, and they never shattered. If they do shatter, definitely move on to another brand, as suggested by Ted. Bill mentioned the cord: I really liked the heavy rubber reinforcement at the base of the cord where it enters the machine on my Makita. This allows the machine to be lowered by the cord from the edge of the boat, and prevents the cord from kinking, as well as keeping it away from the spinning wheel (usually). I know the manufacturer probably said in their literature somewhere, "don't hang the tool by its power cord", but it does seem to happen alot. They also said not to remove the guard, but we always did for ease of use, but definitely not safe by any stretch. It's just one of those unsafe things a lot of us menfolk do in service of getting the job done! No matter what tool you get by whatever manufacturer, open up the plate covering the gears and double-check that there is grease on the gears. My Makita was noisy in the gear department at first, and when I checked under the plate I found the blob of grease in one corner of the gear compartment. I may have migrated off the gear in shipment. I just slopped the grease back onto the gears and closed her up and was good to go. I have had no problems with the machine in all other cases. Alex On 13-Apr-05, at 6:47 AM, bert andjan wrote: > > Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to > buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. > Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used > such things extensively have mentioned your: > > 1)Favorite handheld grinder? > 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? > 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? > > Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems > to be best? at least for you? > > Thanks, its an important investment, > > Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7586|7581|2005-04-13 14:03:05|Henri Naths|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|I've had the best experience with Makita 5 inch I bought in 1990 and used extensively for industrial proposes on a daily bases including lending it out lots. I've replaced the cord several times, brushes almost as often and maybe a trigger or two. I never put an over size disk as that just burns them out. The last time I had it apart to grease the gears I noticed the armature was wore down about a 1/4 inch. There is nothing a person can do about that so when that packs it in, I will certainly by another Makita. The extra you would pay is worth it in the long run. ( minor detail). H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "bert andjan" To: Sent: 13 April, 2005 7:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to > buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. > Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used > such things extensively have mentioned your: > > 1)Favorite handheld grinder? > 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? > 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? > > Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems > to be best? at least for you? > > Thanks, its an important investment, > > Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7587|7581|2005-04-13 14:10:06|jfpacuas|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|I did some comparison shopping, and a bit of research, recently on small angle grinders and decided on the Milwaukee 4.5 based on power and versatility. It cost a bit more, but at this moment in life I have more money than time. So far it has done nothing but work flawlessly, but it hasn't had big workouts. The equivalent Makita (whose tools I have had great luck with) didn't quite have the jam of Milwaukee, but was cheaper. The Hilte was much more expensive, and I wasn't sure what the advantage was. I don't mind buying cheap powertools at swap meets, garage sales, etc., but if I buy new, I tend to spend a little more if I think I'm getting quality. I don't mind chucking a garage sale router in the trash if it burns up, but I'm less patient buying a new tool that I have to return every now and again. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > We bought a Makita 5" grinder (about $160 CDN), which was truly a good > multi-purpose tool for small stuff and medium work, and not what I'd > call expensive. A bigger grinder on hand I was able to borrow was the > 7", which was a great boon to grinding thick steel down. Definitely a > big, heavy, two-handed machine and takes some getting used to, but > after a while you can get good at some pretty delicate work with it, > and when working on the flat you could use the weight of the machine to > your advantage. The high tip speed of the big wheel, coupled with the > more powerful motor made short work of ugly jobs that would have taken > all day with the 5" grinder. I should add that the high tip speed also > makes short work of your skin should you touch it, all in a fraction of > an eye-blink. It leaves a nice deep furrow (I think I'll wear > kevlar-reinforced gloves next time!). > > If you are in an isolated area, I'd go for the quality tool, like > Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee. On the other hand, if you can buy cheap > with warranty and local service with quick turn-around, then that could > be a good way to go too. A whole set of $69 heavy-duty 5" grinders > appeared on the local store shelves AFTER I already bought the Makita, > of course! I would have tried them out if they had come out before I > made my initial purchase, but really I can't quibble over a little bit > more money when the job is ready to go. Considering how important a > grinder is for this work, I'd spring for the nicer machine if cost is > not too much more. > > I found a local supplier of grinding wheels, each at a fraction of the > price of other stores, and available in stacks of 5 and 10. Even > though they wore out faster, I think they were a better over-all deal, > and they never shattered. If they do shatter, definitely move on to > another brand, as suggested by Ted. > > Bill mentioned the cord: I really liked the heavy rubber reinforcement > at the base of the cord where it enters the machine on my Makita. This > allows the machine to be lowered by the cord from the edge of the boat, > and prevents the cord from kinking, as well as keeping it away from the > spinning wheel (usually). I know the manufacturer probably said in > their literature somewhere, "don't hang the tool by its power cord", > but it does seem to happen alot. They also said not to remove the > guard, but we always did for ease of use, but definitely not safe by > any stretch. It's just one of those unsafe things a lot of us menfolk > do in service of getting the job done! > > No matter what tool you get by whatever manufacturer, open up the plate > covering the gears and double-check that there is grease on the gears. > My Makita was noisy in the gear department at first, and when I checked > under the plate I found the blob of grease in one corner of the gear > compartment. I may have migrated off the gear in shipment. I just > slopped the grease back onto the gears and closed her up and was good > to go. I have had no problems with the machine in all other cases. > > Alex > > > On 13-Apr-05, at 6:47 AM, bert andjan wrote: > > > > > Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to > > buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. > > Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used > > such things extensively have mentioned your: > > > > 1)Favorite handheld grinder? > > 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? > > 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? > > > > Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems > > to be best? at least for you? > > > > Thanks, its an important investment, > > > > Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7588|7581|2005-04-13 14:23:06|Henri Naths|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Alex, A worthy note about grinding disks, sometimes it's a better to buy the kind that cut lots but wear out quicker rather than the ones that seem to last longer but u have to really lean on to get any thing done.I would not say the same thing about zip disk. Buddy had one fly apart and a piece stuck in the concrete block wall of his shop. He left it there as a reminder. Buy the best. H. ps: the fast spinning disk cauterizes the wound immediately and disinfects it also, so no time lost... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: 13 April, 2005 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > We bought a Makita 5" grinder (about $160 CDN), which was truly a good > multi-purpose tool for small stuff and medium work, and not what I'd > call expensive. A bigger grinder on hand I was able to borrow was the > 7", which was a great boon to grinding thick steel down. Definitely a > big, heavy, two-handed machine and takes some getting used to, but > after a while you can get good at some pretty delicate work with it, > and when working on the flat you could use the weight of the machine to > your advantage. The high tip speed of the big wheel, coupled with the > more powerful motor made short work of ugly jobs that would have taken > all day with the 5" grinder. I should add that the high tip speed also > makes short work of your skin should you touch it, all in a fraction of > an eye-blink. It leaves a nice deep furrow (I think I'll wear > kevlar-reinforced gloves next time!). > > If you are in an isolated area, I'd go for the quality tool, like > Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee. On the other hand, if you can buy cheap > with warranty and local service with quick turn-around, then that could > be a good way to go too. A whole set of $69 heavy-duty 5" grinders > appeared on the local store shelves AFTER I already bought the Makita, > of course! I would have tried them out if they had come out before I > made my initial purchase, but really I can't quibble over a little bit > more money when the job is ready to go. Considering how important a > grinder is for this work, I'd spring for the nicer machine if cost is > not too much more. > > I found a local supplier of grinding wheels, each at a fraction of the > price of other stores, and available in stacks of 5 and 10. Even > though they wore out faster, I think they were a better over-all deal, > and they never shattered. If they do shatter, definitely move on to > another brand, as suggested by Ted. > > Bill mentioned the cord: I really liked the heavy rubber reinforcement > at the base of the cord where it enters the machine on my Makita. This > allows the machine to be lowered by the cord from the edge of the boat, > and prevents the cord from kinking, as well as keeping it away from the > spinning wheel (usually). I know the manufacturer probably said in > their literature somewhere, "don't hang the tool by its power cord", > but it does seem to happen alot. They also said not to remove the > guard, but we always did for ease of use, but definitely not safe by > any stretch. It's just one of those unsafe things a lot of us menfolk > do in service of getting the job done! > > No matter what tool you get by whatever manufacturer, open up the plate > covering the gears and double-check that there is grease on the gears. > My Makita was noisy in the gear department at first, and when I checked > under the plate I found the blob of grease in one corner of the gear > compartment. I may have migrated off the gear in shipment. I just > slopped the grease back onto the gears and closed her up and was good > to go. I have had no problems with the machine in all other cases. > > Alex > > > On 13-Apr-05, at 6:47 AM, bert andjan wrote: > >> >> Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to >> buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. >> Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used >> such things extensively have mentioned your: >> >> 1)Favorite handheld grinder? >> 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? >> 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? >> >> Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems >> to be best? at least for you? >> >> Thanks, its an important investment, >> >> Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7589|5386|2005-04-13 20:03:22|John Cupp|Re: Bottom paint|I know I bought a pound of copper from Raka and it cost me $16.00. To do a full bottom of a thirty foot boat in copper/epoxy would use at least 20 to 30 lbs of copper but it would last more than one season. The boat I have it on now has gone four seasons without showing any wear. Another fellow told me to put habanero pepper powder in the epoxy along with the copper to make it even less appetizing to barnacles. Another friend has bought up lots of navy marine two part epoxy bottom paint in red. He gets it from naval auctions in the Bay Area. He says some of the paint has gone out of date. He only buys lots of good paint that is still good.. He gave me several kits of the paint that come in five gallon buckets but they only have four gallons of paint each. He is selling this anti fouling paint for 10 dollars a bucket. If you add in the price of copper to add to it, it is a lot cheaper than any other bottom paint you can buy. They must have the same type of auctions in Bellingham Washington and other naval facilities even on the east coast. If you want low cost paint it would be worth looking into these auctions because the military never buys cheap stuff. The same friend gave me a few gallons of the same paint they use on the Blue Angel Jet Aircraft. It is two part poly urethane paint and it is very dangerous to use because if you accidentally breathe the fumes while spraying it the results are death. I know it does not brush on very well because this same guy tried to paint a smaller boat with it using a brush. Yes a gallon of copper would be pretty heavy. I bought more copper from another epoxy supplier and two pounds des not make a very big package but it was enough to finish my project.. John. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Bit of feedback from one of last's year's posts ..... > > In the article referred to, the author states: > "A gallon of the copper powder is probably 12-14 pounds." > > Mmmm - I wonder if he's ever actually done this ? Perhaps not. > > I recently took delivery of 2 kilos (4.4 lbs to those who use > sensible measurements) and it would just about fill a small tea > cup. A gallon of Copper powder would probably weight around 100 lbs. > > So now I'm wondering if the idea is taurus faeces ? Which would > be a bugger seeing as I've already parted with the cash ... > anyone want some copper powder ? > > Colin > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Cruising around on the web I found a link to this site: > > > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html > > > > The main idea here is to make your own copper/epoxy bottom paint at a > > fraction of the cost from commercial suppliers. > > > > Happy sails to you > > Fred | 7590|7581|2005-04-13 21:34:30|blueiceicle|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Hey Bert...Group I have to say the beauty of this group is knowlege and experiance base. When it comes to tools, it all comes down to personal prefrence i find. Some like Snap On, some like me prefer Mastercraft. Anyhows, in my experiance with girnders which has been quite extensive in the past years is, stay away from cheap'os if you can afford it. Every shop has there favorite tools i find, some like miller some like dewalt some like Lincon Electiric and so on. The last shop i worked at used Walter grinders and walter disks Personaly i find them to be the best ive ever used, Im the type of person who cant be bothered to grind something longer then it has to be, so i lay into it, lots...just get it done is my motto. Yes im hard on grinders, i used the same walter grinder for a year at my last job working it hard, never had no problems. Ive killed 2 makitas and one crazy import since. In the end get something good, Walter is my fav. dewaults are good however both are pricy. And i agree whith whom ever mentioned never to cheap out on disks, whether they are grinding or zip, cutting!!!! Oh just thought id say dont forget about the buffing wheels, ive had one come apart, didnt feel good! Just my 2cents Regards Jesse| 7591|7581|2005-04-13 22:41:09|John Cupp|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|I have been testing a Porter Cable 7430K grinder now for six months now. I loaned it out to a friend who was doing a bit of welding on a frame jig for repairing crashed cars. He buys rolled over cars and trucks never front or rear crashes and repairs them and uses them for his own vehicles. He constantly has a like new pickup and a new car for his wife to drive. His father in-law has a laser frame alignment shop so he fixes the small details he missed at his father in-laws.. This grinder has 6 amps and runs at 10,000 rpm but it is completely made with roller and ball bearings so the noise level is lower and it does not loose rpm when you really bear down. I have a couple of big grinders a Makita and a Milwaukee that don't even compare to this smaller lighter model. I have companies send me tools all the time for my magazine testing and I can say this is the best grinder I have used bar none. I have a steel wheel and an aluminum wheel and the stock Porter Cable wheels seem to cut very fast and last a long time. I will try to get a few more disks from the company Rep before I print the report. I have nothing but good things to say about this grinder and it is made for the long haul. It has a nice carrying case with a wheel wrench and other accessories. They have a great warranty and I also tested their dual power 18 gauge brad nailer that has a small twelve volt battery for it's mini compressor and a hook up for an air hose also. It works great for putting together interiors and you can get 316 stainless brad nails that will not rust. Another super tool from Porter Cable. If you open up a lot of grinders they will not have bearings but just bushings. The bearings make the huge difference when you want to grind slag or cut out and clean up a weld to check for holes. You will not be disappointed in the purchase. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Alex, > A worthy note about grinding disks, sometimes it's a better to buy the kind > that cut lots but wear out quicker rather than the ones that seem to last > longer but u have to really lean on to get any thing done.I would not say > the same thing about zip disk. Buddy had one fly apart and a piece stuck in > the concrete block wall of his shop. He left it there as a reminder. Buy the > best. > H. > ps: the fast spinning disk cauterizes the wound immediately and disinfects > it also, so no time lost... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Christie" > To: > Sent: 13 April, 2005 11:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > > > > > We bought a Makita 5" grinder (about $160 CDN), which was truly a good > > multi-purpose tool for small stuff and medium work, and not what I'd > > call expensive. A bigger grinder on hand I was able to borrow was the > > 7", which was a great boon to grinding thick steel down. Definitely a > > big, heavy, two-handed machine and takes some getting used to, but > > after a while you can get good at some pretty delicate work with it, > > and when working on the flat you could use the weight of the machine to > > your advantage. The high tip speed of the big wheel, coupled with the > > more powerful motor made short work of ugly jobs that would have taken > > all day with the 5" grinder. I should add that the high tip speed also > > makes short work of your skin should you touch it, all in a fraction of > > an eye-blink. It leaves a nice deep furrow (I think I'll wear > > kevlar-reinforced gloves next time!). > > > > If you are in an isolated area, I'd go for the quality tool, like > > Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee. On the other hand, if you can buy cheap > > with warranty and local service with quick turn-around, then that could > > be a good way to go too. A whole set of $69 heavy-duty 5" grinders > > appeared on the local store shelves AFTER I already bought the Makita, > > of course! I would have tried them out if they had come out before I > > made my initial purchase, but really I can't quibble over a little bit > > more money when the job is ready to go. Considering how important a > > grinder is for this work, I'd spring for the nicer machine if cost is > > not too much more. > > > > I found a local supplier of grinding wheels, each at a fraction of the > > price of other stores, and available in stacks of 5 and 10. Even > > though they wore out faster, I think they were a better over-all deal, > > and they never shattered. If they do shatter, definitely move on to > > another brand, as suggested by Ted. > > > > Bill mentioned the cord: I really liked the heavy rubber reinforcement > > at the base of the cord where it enters the machine on my Makita. This > > allows the machine to be lowered by the cord from the edge of the boat, > > and prevents the cord from kinking, as well as keeping it away from the > > spinning wheel (usually). I know the manufacturer probably said in > > their literature somewhere, "don't hang the tool by its power cord", > > but it does seem to happen alot. They also said not to remove the > > guard, but we always did for ease of use, but definitely not safe by > > any stretch. It's just one of those unsafe things a lot of us menfolk > > do in service of getting the job done! > > > > No matter what tool you get by whatever manufacturer, open up the plate > > covering the gears and double-check that there is grease on the gears. > > My Makita was noisy in the gear department at first, and when I checked > > under the plate I found the blob of grease in one corner of the gear > > compartment. I may have migrated off the gear in shipment. I just > > slopped the grease back onto the gears and closed her up and was good > > to go. I have had no problems with the machine in all other cases. > > > > Alex > > > > > > On 13-Apr-05, at 6:47 AM, bert andjan wrote: > > > >> > >> Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to > >> buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. > >> Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used > >> such things extensively have mentioned your: > >> > >> 1)Favorite handheld grinder? > >> 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? > >> 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? > >> > >> Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems > >> to be best? at least for you? > >> > >> Thanks, its an important investment, > >> > >> Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________ > >> Do you Yahoo!? > >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7592|7592|2005-04-13 22:51:09|khooper_fboats|Military Manuals On Line|Came across this while searching for more information on building wind generators and perhaps the pendulum generator discussed here a while ago. I've seen otherpower.com and the Hugh Piggott site but want more granular information on electricity generation and regulation. This site has been recommended before as a resource for welding information, which it is, but it's much more besides. Ths site itself seems to be devoted to HTMLizing military technical manuals on a wide variety of subjects. The manuals are outstanding (if a manual can make my tiny brain understand a generator then it is superb) and evidently this is all free for download. The stuff on generators is here: http://www.tpub.com/content/neets And the site TOC is up one directory: http://www.tpub.com/content/ Really useful stuff. --Hoop| 7593|7581|2005-04-13 22:59:28|Courtney Thomas|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|What's the difference between the 7430 and the 7430K, please ? Thanks. On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 21:41, John Cupp wrote: > > > I have been testing a Porter Cable 7430K grinder now for six months > now. I loaned it out to a friend who was doing a bit of welding on > a frame jig for repairing crashed cars. He buys rolled over cars > and trucks never front or rear crashes and repairs them and uses > them for his own vehicles. He constantly has a like new pickup and > a new car for his wife to drive. His father in-law has a laser > frame alignment shop so he fixes the small details he missed at his > father in-laws.. This grinder has 6 amps and runs at 10,000 rpm > but it is completely made with roller and ball bearings so the noise > level is lower and it does not loose rpm when you really bear down. > I have a couple of big grinders a Makita and a Milwaukee that don't > even compare to this smaller lighter model. > > I have companies send me tools all the time for my magazine testing > and I can say this is the best grinder I have used bar none. I > have a steel wheel and an aluminum wheel and the stock Porter Cable > wheels seem to cut very fast and last a long time. I will try to > get a few more disks from the company Rep before I print the > report. I have nothing but good things to say about this grinder > and it is made for the long haul. It has a nice carrying case with > a wheel wrench and other accessories. They have a great warranty > and I also tested their dual power 18 gauge brad nailer that has a > small twelve volt battery for it's mini compressor and a hook up for > an air hose also. It works great for putting together interiors > and you can get 316 stainless brad nails that will not rust. > Another super tool from Porter Cable. > > If you open up a lot of grinders they will not have bearings but > just bushings. The bearings make the huge difference when you want > to grind slag or cut out and clean up a weld to check for holes. > You will not be disappointed in the purchase. > > John > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Alex, > > A worthy note about grinding disks, sometimes it's a better to buy > the kind > > that cut lots but wear out quicker rather than the ones that seem > to last > > longer but u have to really lean on to get any thing done.I would > not say > > the same thing about zip disk. Buddy had one fly apart and a piece > stuck in > > the concrete block wall of his shop. He left it there as a > reminder. Buy the > > best. > > H. > > ps: the fast spinning disk cauterizes the wound immediately and > disinfects > > it also, so no time lost... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Alex Christie" > > To: > > Sent: 13 April, 2005 11:48 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > > > > > > > > > We bought a Makita 5" grinder (about $160 CDN), which was truly > a good > > > multi-purpose tool for small stuff and medium work, and not what > I'd > > > call expensive. A bigger grinder on hand I was able to borrow > was the > > > 7", which was a great boon to grinding thick steel down. > Definitely a > > > big, heavy, two-handed machine and takes some getting used to, > but > > > after a while you can get good at some pretty delicate work with > it, > > > and when working on the flat you could use the weight of the > machine to > > > your advantage. The high tip speed of the big wheel, coupled > with the > > > more powerful motor made short work of ugly jobs that would > have taken > > > all day with the 5" grinder. I should add that the high tip > speed also > > > makes short work of your skin should you touch it, all in a > fraction of > > > an eye-blink. It leaves a nice deep furrow (I think I'll wear > > > kevlar-reinforced gloves next time!). > > > > > > If you are in an isolated area, I'd go for the quality tool, like > > > Makita, Hitachi, Milwaukee. On the other hand, if you can buy > cheap > > > with warranty and local service with quick turn-around, then > that could > > > be a good way to go too. A whole set of $69 heavy-duty 5" > grinders > > > appeared on the local store shelves AFTER I already bought the > Makita, > > > of course! I would have tried them out if they had come out > before I > > > made my initial purchase, but really I can't quibble over a > little bit > > > more money when the job is ready to go. Considering how > important a > > > grinder is for this work, I'd spring for the nicer machine if > cost is > > > not too much more. > > > > > > I found a local supplier of grinding wheels, each at a fraction > of the > > > price of other stores, and available in stacks of 5 and 10. Even > > > though they wore out faster, I think they were a better over-all > deal, > > > and they never shattered. If they do shatter, definitely move > on to > > > another brand, as suggested by Ted. > > > > > > Bill mentioned the cord: I really liked the heavy rubber > reinforcement > > > at the base of the cord where it enters the machine on my > Makita. This > > > allows the machine to be lowered by the cord from the edge of > the boat, > > > and prevents the cord from kinking, as well as keeping it away > from the > > > spinning wheel (usually). I know the manufacturer probably said > in > > > their literature somewhere, "don't hang the tool by its power > cord", > > > but it does seem to happen alot. They also said not to remove > the > > > guard, but we always did for ease of use, but definitely not > safe by > > > any stretch. It's just one of those unsafe things a lot of us > menfolk > > > do in service of getting the job done! > > > > > > No matter what tool you get by whatever manufacturer, open up > the plate > > > covering the gears and double-check that there is grease on the > gears. > > > My Makita was noisy in the gear department at first, and when I > checked > > > under the plate I found the blob of grease in one corner of the > gear > > > compartment. I may have migrated off the gear in shipment. I > just > > > slopped the grease back onto the gears and closed her up and was > good > > > to go. I have had no problems with the machine in all other > cases. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > On 13-Apr-05, at 6:47 AM, bert andjan wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Hi to all. My angle grinder packed up and I need to > > >> buy another, hopefully it'll last awhile longer. > > >> Anyway a few of you from time to time who have used > > >> such things extensively have mentioned your: > > >> > > >> 1)Favorite handheld grinder? > > >> 2)Favorite size grinding wheels? > > >> 3)Favorite brand of grinding wheels? > > >> > > >> Would you folks be willing to fill me in on what seems > > >> to be best? at least for you? > > >> > > >> Thanks, its an important investment, > > >> > > >> Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Michigan > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> __________________________________ > > >> Do you Yahoo!? > > >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > >> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7594|7594|2005-04-14 05:01:37|Hove-to|Fw: [boatdesign] Materials weights|----- Original Message ----- From: Hove-to To: origamiboats Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:13 AM Subject: Fw: [boatdesign] Materials weights ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: boatdesign@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [boatdesign] Materials weights Any comments please from this group on both mails, I would lile to read the threads mentioned in the first paragraph, are they from this group? Regards Michael There is a steel group on yahoo called origami. They have some good welders and metal guys on the group. I would suggest a look if steel is your medium of choice. Past comments tend to indicate not using another material for the deck. In one instanse a steel boat rolled and the ply deck broke / collapsed under the pressure. I think there are also issues of making the joint. My brother's 10.6 meter boat has a fibreglass hull and a wood deck which was actually my idea, as he could purchase a hull keel and rudder and finish the deck and interior himself. This was quicker than building the whole thing and cost effective. It also used his wood working skills. Michael in BC ----- Original Message ----- From: hove to To: boatdesign Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:57 AM Subject: [boatdesign] Materials weights Hi every one from a new member I would like to build a boat of around 32' using steel for the hull, I know there are weight penalties with steel boats any smaller than this. The designs I've seen so far use steel for decks and coachroof as well, I'm sure there must be good reasons for this? a complete monocoque of the same material would be attractive from a design point of view. I've read that being inside a complete steel boat can be like being inside a drum, the sound is magnified and resonates, insulation would help to reduce this of course. But you would still be left with the problem of uncomfortably hot or cold to the touch of decks, cockpit and coach-roof, due to the high conductivity of steel. So I'm considering other sheet materials for the deck and coach roof to reduce weight and make a more comfortable boat I have sheet steel weights and approx ply weights. It would be good to have GRP foam sandwich and cedar strip weights at a guess these would need to around 20 to 30mm?thick. My question Regards Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: boatdesign-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: boatdesign-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7595|5386|2005-04-14 05:28:01|sae140|Re: Bottom paint|Hi John many thanks for your comments. I know of several people who have applied this DIY brew, but not one has yet given any feedback about how it performs in practice. Last year I played with some aluminium paint (for outboard engines) - one had turps-type thinner (I think it's called 'the vehicle' in paint circles) and the other had a xylene 'vehicle'. When dry, neither paint would conduct electricity. In contrast, the "Zinga(tm)" that Ted Stone uses is conductive when dry. Hmmm. So, I'm assuming that both aluminium paints have their tiny particles of ally powder surrounded by an insulating coating of dried solvent, whereas the Zinga doesn't. So - turning to the DIY anti-fouling, I was a tad concerned that the copper particles would be insulated from each other (and from the seawater !) by a minute layer of epoxy. I was beginning to look around for a suitable microporous paint - there is some stuff used for ranch posts which is reputed to allow the wood to breath through the paint (?) .... but from what you say, using epoxy paint works ok ? That is reassuring - thanks. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > > I know I bought a pound of copper from Raka and it cost me $16.00. > To do a full bottom of a thirty foot boat in copper/epoxy would use > at least 20 to 30 lbs of copper but it would last more than one > season. The boat I have it on now has gone four seasons without > showing any wear. Another fellow told me to put habanero pepper > powder in the epoxy along with the copper to make it even less > appetizing to barnacles. > > Another friend has bought up lots of navy marine two part epoxy > bottom paint in red. He gets it from naval auctions in the Bay > Area. He says some of the paint has gone out of date. He only > buys lots of good paint that is still good.. He gave me several > kits of the paint that come in five gallon buckets but they only > have four gallons of paint each. He is selling this anti fouling > paint for 10 dollars a bucket. If you add in the price of copper > to add to it, it is a lot cheaper than any other bottom paint you > can buy. > > They must have the same type of auctions in Bellingham Washington > and other naval facilities even on the east coast. If you want low > cost paint it would be worth looking into these auctions because the > military never buys cheap stuff. The same friend gave me a few > gallons of the same paint they use on the Blue Angel Jet Aircraft. > It is two part poly urethane paint and it is very dangerous to use > because if you accidentally breathe the fumes while spraying it the > results are death. I know it does not brush on very well because > this same guy tried to paint a smaller boat with it using a brush. > Yes a gallon of copper would be pretty heavy. I bought more copper > from another epoxy supplier and two pounds des not make a very big > package but it was enough to finish my project.. > > John. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > Bit of feedback from one of last's year's posts ..... > > > > In the article referred to, the author states: > > "A gallon of the copper powder is probably 12-14 pounds." > > > > Mmmm - I wonder if he's ever actually done this ? Perhaps not. > > > > I recently took delivery of 2 kilos (4.4 lbs to those who use > > sensible measurements) and it would just about fill a small tea > > cup. A gallon of Copper powder would probably weight around 100 > lbs. > > > > So now I'm wondering if the idea is taurus faeces ? Which would > > be a bugger seeing as I've already parted with the cash ... > > anyone want some copper powder ? > > > > Colin > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "fenixrises" > > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > Cruising around on the web I found a link to this site: > > > > > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/copper4u.html > > > > > > The main idea here is to make your own copper/epoxy bottom paint > at a > > > fraction of the cost from commercial suppliers. > > > > > > Happy sails to you > > > Fred | 7596|7581|2005-04-14 05:41:22|sae140|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|A couple of thoughts on grinders/disks. If you think you might want a 9" - pick one up and hold it at arm's length for a couple of minutes. Then think again. You really need to build-up some muscles *before* using one of these. If you do buy one, make sure it has a soft-start button. In my (limited) experience, it's *cutting* rather than grinding which takes angle-grinders out. If the machine slows down significantly during use, ease up on the pressure - let the machine do the work. Lastly - always have a spare grinder around. Even the best will die one day - and as Sod's Law predicts, it will *always* be in the middle of a rush job, and when the sheds are closed. Colin| 7597|5386|2005-04-14 06:21:11|edward_stoneuk|Re: Bottom paint|Hi Colin, Manufacturers of anti-fouling containing copper recommend that it is not used over an aluminium or zinc substrate so folks with either face the same problem, perhaps more so with aluminium. Zinga recommend using another one of their products (Alufer N, which is a single component polyurethane intermediate coat from memory) as a barrier coat. The copper in an epoxy/copper powder anti-fouling obviously leaches enough to be effective. From memory I understand that some users recommend that after coating a mild abrading of the surface is done to expose the copper, and then, in use, as the epoxy wears and the copper slowly dissolves more copper is exposed to do its stuff. There is the problem of avoiding contact after collisions even with a barrier coat so inspection and maintenance is important although less so with a zinc coated steel boat than with an aluminium one. There is an argument that the use of a zinc primer under water is wasted although the idea of the whole boat being an anode appeals. Topside and inside I am convinced of its benefits. Are you building a steel boat or are you still working on your glass fibre one? Regards, Ted| 7598|7581|2005-04-14 06:36:47|edward_stoneuk|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > If you think you might want a 9" - pick one up and hold > it at arm's length for a couple of minutes. Then think > again. You really need to build-up some muscles *before* > using one of these. If you do buy one, make sure it has > a soft-start button. You are right there Colin, although 9" grinders are much more productive than weight training in building muscle. First time users will tire very quickly and then it is time to stop and do something else. They can be violently dangerous especially if one is tired. Mine has a soft start, which is a very good thing indeed. Back in the mists of time I was using a large grinder with a wire cup brush to clean the burnt paint off a motorcycle petrol tank. It was summer and I had my shirt loose. The brush got caught in it, the grinder twisted in my hands, ripped the shirt off my back and wire brushed my stomach. Definitely much too much excitment. Regards, Ted| 7599|7581|2005-04-14 08:15:07|Gerd|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|> > If you think you might want a 9" - pick one up and hold > > it at arm's length for a couple of minutes. The best would be to have several grinders, of different weights. Whenever your position allows you to let the weight of the machine do the work with yourself just guiding it, use the biggest meanest monster you can find. On the other hand, using the same machine for overhead or even vertical work is not possible for longer periods, where you have to support the weight and at the same time apply pressure, a lighter machine is preferable. Quality: I bought a VERY cheap machine the just the day before cutting my plates. Needless to say, before I was through the first half-hull, the machine went belly up, smoking.... I exchanged for new TWICE in the 3-day no questions asked garantee periods and now have the third, almost new and very cheap machine as a backup, all for one small payment and the work done. Seems perfectly moral to me too, there was no sticker on it saying "not supposed to be used for real work..." ;-) Plus I have a better machine that could just sit smugly in the shed while the other got it's guts torn out. Using the good machine would probably have cost me more in usage and loss of value than the junk did. Anyway, I would rather have two cheap machines, than only one good one that is broken on a saturday afternoon when all the shops are closed. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7600|7581|2005-04-14 08:25:12|seeratlas|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|So much of the 'new' stuff is cheap crap, you might consider checking a tool rebuilding/refurbishing house. Back when 'Made in USA' meant something other than lowest common denominator, some very good tools were built. A lot of the grinders/saws etc. were totally rebuildable and I've come across several old Craftsman brand grinders, for instance, that were totally ballbearing, and having been rebuilt are ready for 'round 2'. I have one of these , a 7 inch, which I bought sometime in the 70's that still works, tho the cable had to replaced due to the rubber committing UV induced hari-kari. Check the tool repair places near you, they might have some good deals and some good advice. Talk to the guy who actually does the work. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > If you think you might want a 9" - pick one up and hold > > > it at arm's length for a couple of minutes. > > The best would be to have several grinders, of different weights. > > Whenever your position allows you to let the weight of the machine > do the work with yourself just guiding it, use the biggest meanest > monster you can find. > On the other hand, using the same machine for overhead or even > vertical work is not possible for longer periods, where you have to > support the weight and at the same time apply pressure, a lighter > machine is preferable. > > Quality: I bought a VERY cheap machine the just the day before > cutting my plates. Needless to say, before I was through the first > half-hull, the machine went belly up, smoking.... I exchanged for > new TWICE in the 3-day no questions asked garantee periods and now > have the third, almost new and very cheap machine as a backup, all > for one small payment and the work done. Seems perfectly moral to me > too, there was no sticker on it saying "not supposed to be used for > real work..." ;-) > Plus I have a better machine that could just sit smugly in the shed > while the other got it's guts torn out. > Using the good machine would probably have cost me more in usage and > loss of value than the junk did. > > Anyway, I would rather have two cheap machines, than only one good > one that is broken on a saturday afternoon when all the shops are > closed. > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 7601|5386|2005-04-14 08:37:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Bottom paint|Colin, Another thought: Have you tried the elecrical conductivity test on your copper powder in an epoxy mix? Regards, Ted| 7602|7602|2005-04-14 09:08:57|Bill Jaine|Comments|I admit it, I own a plastic boat but I have a steel heart :-). Has anyone had any experience or heard of this stuff? HYPERLINK "http://www.transomrepair.com/"http://www.transomrepair.com/ Bill & Sue, T37 Wellantanzerin, TYA3725707 Port Hope, Canada -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 12/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7603|7528|2005-04-14 12:55:28|sae140|Re: Lengthening aluminum masts|> I have the opportunity to acquire an aluminum mast for my BS26 > project for nearly nothing. I haven't seen it (its 600 miles away), > but I have "eyes" out there helping m e scrounge. > > I'm told that its 30 feet (not sure if this is an estimate), but I > need 33. At this point I don't know the cross-sectional shape. > > Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, > does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? Seems a shame to be snookered for just 3 feet ... Thoughts: a) could you not install the 30ft mast and fit sails to suit ? b) was talking to a guy at the weekend who fitted a wooden top to an ally mast "in the old days" when tapered sections couldn't be got. So - a 3ft. wooden tip ? Unusual - but so what ? Colin| 7604|7528|2005-04-14 13:57:54|Paul Cotter|Re: Lengthening aluminum masts|Gerad and Colin, Thanks for the tips. I just might have to get creative. A mast for 100 bucks is hard to resist. If I add a wood or steel section, believe it becomes a composite mast, yes? How shwanky! Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: sae140 [mailto:colinpowell@...] Sent: 04/14/2005 8:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lengthening aluminum masts > I have the opportunity to acquire an aluminum mast for my BS26 > project for nearly nothing. I haven't seen it (its 600 miles away), > but I have "eyes" out there helping m e scrounge. > > I'm told that its 30 feet (not sure if this is an estimate), but I > need 33. At this point I don't know the cross-sectional shape. > > Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, > does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? Seems a shame to be snookered for just 3 feet ... Thoughts: a) could you not install the 30ft mast and fit sails to suit ? b) was talking to a guy at the weekend who fitted a wooden top to an ally mast "in the old days" when tapered sections couldn't be got. So - a 3ft. wooden tip ? Unusual - but so what ? Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7605|7581|2005-04-14 19:38:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Funny story about power tool cords. My dad and I once bought a pallet load of welder rheostat control boxes at a nuclear plant construction auction. A couple of people asked us what the hell we wanted them for, as they were almost worthless, and we paid 50 cents a box for 150 boxes. We bought them for the cords! It turns out each box had a perfectly good strain relief cord of the kind used on good power tools. We had 18 guys working in the field and dozens of hand power tools so we were constantly buying cords at about $15 a pop. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > > So much of the 'new' stuff is cheap crap, you might consider checking > a tool rebuilding/refurbishing house. Back when 'Made in USA' meant > something other than lowest common denominator, some very good tools > were built. A lot of the grinders/saws etc. were totally rebuildable > and I've come across several old Craftsman brand grinders, for > instance, that were totally ballbearing, and having been rebuilt are > ready for 'round 2'. I have one of these , a 7 inch, which I bought > sometime in the 70's that still works, tho the cable had to replaced > due to the rubber committing UV induced hari-kari. > > Check the tool repair places near you, they might have some good deals > and some good advice. Talk to the guy who actually does the work. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >> >> > > If you think you might want a 9" - pick one up and hold >> > > it at arm's length for a couple of minutes. >> >> The best would be to have several grinders, of different weights. >> >> Whenever your position allows you to let the weight of the machine >> do the work with yourself just guiding it, use the biggest meanest >> monster you can find. >> On the other hand, using the same machine for overhead or even >> vertical work is not possible for longer periods, where you have to >> support the weight and at the same time apply pressure, a lighter >> machine is preferable. >> >> Quality: I bought a VERY cheap machine the just the day before >> cutting my plates. Needless to say, before I was through the first >> half-hull, the machine went belly up, smoking.... I exchanged for >> new TWICE in the 3-day no questions asked garantee periods and now >> have the third, almost new and very cheap machine as a backup, all >> for one small payment and the work done. Seems perfectly moral to me >> too, there was no sticker on it saying "not supposed to be used for >> real work..." ;-) >> Plus I have a better machine that could just sit smugly in the shed >> while the other got it's guts torn out. >> Using the good machine would probably have cost me more in usage and >> loss of value than the junk did. >> >> Anyway, I would rather have two cheap machines, than only one good >> one that is broken on a saturday afternoon when all the shops are >> closed. >> >> >> Gerd >> >> The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7606|7581|2005-04-14 21:19:24|kendall|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > What's the difference between the 7430 and the 7430K, please ? > > Thanks. on circular saws, the k version is the left blade style, I was told that it was an accross the board designation for all PC tools. ken.| 7607|7607|2005-04-14 21:50:12|bert andjan|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy...|__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/| 7608|7607|2005-04-14 21:52:47|bert andjan|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy...|So glad I'm part of this group, thanks loads for all the replies regarding angle grinders... Armed with all this advice I now head out into the real world, fearless, utterly fearless, fistfull of money in hand... we'll see what I come up with. Thanks again! Bert Eggers, Saginaw, Mi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 7609|5386|2005-04-15 04:12:51|sae140|Re: Bottom paint|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > Are you building a steel boat or are you still working on > your glass fibre one? > > Regards, Ted Hi Ted, Still the plastic tub. The weather put me back a month and has only recently become warm enough to use epoxy. Hopefully will be in the water by June 1st. Quote from 'Damage Control': "I sometimes wonder if builders know that boats are meant to leave a snug, safe marina and venture on the sea, a place of storms, rocks and other vessels, mostly of vastly greater size." Well, grp is definitely a one-off experience for me: 3 holes in the hull plus one in the deck from the boat going walkabout in a supposedly "snug and safe" harbour during a blow .... But it's not just sustaining such damage from minor shunts which puts me off ... repairing fibreglass is just so s_l_o_w when compared with welding. Still, having any boat of any kind in the water will be good therapy. The story of your stomach being wire-brushed turned mine. All I have to offer in the 9" snafu stories is turning my shirt into a bonfire from the sparks ..... (you know - the sort of thing you only ever do once) Will keep you posted on what happens with the epoxy paint/ copper powder brew. Colin| 7610|7581|2005-04-15 08:28:31|Courtney Thomas|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Again, please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand. If we're talking grinders, isn't the 'blade' simply downward, if looking at the tool from above ? In any case, assuming I'm fully confused, what's the advantage of a left or right grinder ? Gratefully, Courtney On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 20:18, kendall wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > > What's the difference between the 7430 and the 7430K, please ? > > > > Thanks. > > on circular saws, the k version is the left blade style, I was told > that it was an accross the board designation for all PC tools. > > ken. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7611|5386|2005-04-15 11:33:59|kendall|Re: Bottom paint|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > The story of your stomach being wire-brushed turned mine. > All I have to offer in the 9" snafu stories is turning my > shirt into a bonfire from the sparks ..... (you know - the > sort of thing you only ever do once) > > Will keep you posted on what happens with the epoxy paint/ > copper powder brew. > > Colin Did that once, had all the 'safety' stuff on, spark proof apron etc, and was cutting steel with a grinder at work, outside in the snow so I had my carharts on, cutting away and noticed my leg was getting hot, looked down and noticed smoke, the wind had turned the apron into a channel, and the sparks had followed the apron to my leg, and the breeze had fanned them into flames, by the time the heat had made it through the insulation, my jeans, and long johns, the flames were going pretty good, so when I found I couldn't beat them out I decided a quick swim in the nearby drainage pond would be the best option, not the funnest thing to do in December in Michigan. I was frozen solid, no burns, but a touch of frostbite, which made for an interesting conversation at the med center (work requires a med visit for anything that happens) On the copper powder/epoxy paint, it would seem that if you were to mix it copper rich, and apply it heavy, you'd be able to lightly sand it and 'renew' it on occasion, instead of re-applying. I don't think you'd need continueous contact of the capper particals, just enough copper showing through the surface to do the job, so a light sanding with fine paper should work well. ken.| 7612|7581|2005-04-15 11:42:16|kendall|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Again, please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand. If we're > talking grinders, isn't the 'blade' simply downward, if looking at the > tool from above ? > > In any case, assuming I'm fully confused, what's the advantage of a left > or right grinder ? > > Gratefully, > > Courtney > I'm not sure if left/right has anything to do with the blade position, may be switches etc, at work they have an old grinder that has the controls on the 'wrong' side, and it is a slightly dangerous tool to use, the switch lock is a pain to use, so you have to loosen your grip and swap hands to shut it off, dangerous is too strong of a word, it's just that you have to give up control of the tool to shut it off or turn it on, and I prtefer having complete control over the tool at all times. I'm not certain that that is the meaning of the "K", it was explained to me that way, and my saws are left blade and have the K too. With some tools I prefer left hand versions, they seem to be laid out better for the way I use them. ken.| 7613|7581|2005-04-15 12:01:18|kendall|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Again, please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand. If we're > talking grinders, isn't the 'blade' simply downward, if looking at the > tool from above ? > > In any case, assuming I'm fully confused, what's the advantage of a left > or right grinder ? > > Gratefully, > > Courtney > Got me curious, so I did a quick search, and found that most places show the exact same photo for either the 7430, or the 7430k, except for this place, http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/451021/2196 which doesn't show the switch, (visible in the otehr photos right beside the side handle) on this page http://www.toolup.com/productinfo_froogle.asp?ID=7430&Manuf=Porter_Cable so by appearance, it is the switch position. everything else is the same. can't figure out why none of these places don't carry left and right versions, or at least say something about right/left handedness. Here in Grand Rapids Mi, there are only a couple of places you can walk into and get either left or right tools, most carry right hand, and there is one or two that carry left handers only (circ saws). That second listing at $47.97 looks like a good deal ken.| 7614|7528|2005-04-15 13:04:04|richytill|Re: Lengthening aluminum masts|All mast seekers: Have spare 48' aluminium pole for sale near Vancouver BC. Price: $1500 obo. Call (604) 741-7075 for details. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Gerad and Colin, > > Thanks for the tips. I just might have to get creative. A mast for 100 > bucks is hard to resist. If I add a wood or steel section, believe it > becomes a composite mast, yes? How shwanky! > > Cheers > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: sae140 [mailto:colinpowell@f...] > Sent: 04/14/2005 8:55 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lengthening aluminum masts > > > > > I have the opportunity to acquire an aluminum mast for my BS26 > > project for nearly nothing. I haven't seen it (its 600 miles away), > > but I have "eyes" out there helping m e scrounge. > > > > I'm told that its 30 feet (not sure if this is an estimate), but I > > need 33. At this point I don't know the cross-sectional shape. > > > > Anyway, given that I can't provide much information at this point, > > does anyone have any luck lengthening aluminum masts? > > > Seems a shame to be snookered for just 3 feet ... > > Thoughts: > > a) could you not install the 30ft mast and fit sails to suit ? > > b) was talking to a guy at the weekend who fitted a wooden top > to an ally mast "in the old days" when tapered sections couldn't > be got. So - a 3ft. wooden tip ? Unusual - but so what ? > > Colin > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7615|7581|2005-04-15 16:33:22|..|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|>ones from the DIY sheds. They come with a one year warranty >nd usually a spare set of brushes. I have had several replaced under >arranty due to gear failure, switch failure, brush holder failure and >nknown failure. Ted ,I have used the cheap Chinese grinders and burnt them out,but the big difference between these and a grinder from one of the better quality manufactures is the balancing of the armatures. The cheap grinders I have had vibrated so badly that I started to get white finger and tingling hands after only a short time,I had to stop work to give my hands time to recover,this just makes the job take longer, still with the risk. I would prefer to pay more if the tool is of a higher quality as once you get white finger you will never recover from it ,as I am sure you know it is classified as an industrial complaint which can result in paying the sufferer compensation. My grinders are industrial quality, which have to be correctly balanced as the manufactures would not be able to sell them ,the other feature which you have metioned is soft start which is much safer for a 9" grinder as without it you get a snatch when switching on. Geoff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7616|7616|2005-04-15 17:22:12|brentswain38|Credit card?|Mathew (mhs@... ) told me that he couldn't get on our website because he doesn't have a credit card? I couldn't get on if that had been the case when I joined, because I've never had a credit card or bank loan in my life.Whatkiond of bullshit is this. Could anyone help him out? He seems keen to start a boat.| 7617|7607|2005-04-15 17:29:57|brentswain38|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy...|Big griners are more powerfull, but a pain to hold up for overhead grinding. I've hadd great success withthe 5 inch makita , still going strong after 21 years Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, bert andjan wrote: > So glad I'm part of this group, thanks loads for all > the replies regarding angle grinders... Armed with > all this advice I now head out into the real world, > fearless, utterly fearless, fistfull of money in > hand... we'll see what I come up with. Thanks again! > > Bert Eggers, Saginaw, Mi > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail | 7618|7581|2005-04-15 17:30:14|richytill|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|The grind: I have owned a 7" Makita since 1982. The thing was on my welding truck for 5 years and has been used and abused to the max. For its' retirement project I used the same Makita for the construction of the BS 36 "My Island." It has out-lasted,out- performed and outlived several other grinders over 23 years. This grinder has been submerged in swamps and buried in sand in the desert- -it has been frozen in Alberta and Baked in Osoyoos. For maintainance, I have replaced brushes and cords-that's it. No amount of luck could keep this grinder alive that long--it's a reliable product that performs well in adverse conditions. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > > > >ones from the DIY sheds. They come with a one year warranty > >nd usually a spare set of brushes. I have had several replaced under > >arranty due to gear failure, switch failure, brush holder failure and > >nknown failure. > > Ted > ,I have used the cheap Chinese grinders and burnt them out,but the big > difference between these and a > grinder from one of the better quality manufactures is the balancing of the > armatures. > The cheap grinders I have had vibrated so badly that I started to get white > finger and tingling hands > after only a short time,I had to stop work to give my hands time to > recover,this just makes the > job take longer, still with the risk. > I would prefer to pay more if the tool is of a higher quality as once you > get white finger you will never > recover from it ,as I am sure you know it is classified as an industrial > complaint which can result in > paying the sufferer compensation. > My grinders are industrial quality, which have to be correctly balanced as > the manufactures would not > be able to sell them ,the other feature which you have metioned is soft > start which is much safer > for a 9" grinder as without it you get a snatch when switching on. > > Geoff > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7619|7607|2005-04-15 17:39:31|richytill|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy...|Brent, I have an 5" Makita that I picked up in a sale--old, well worn but just won't die. I tend to use it more than the 7" now, except for the really heavy work. I find you need the power of the 7" for effective power brushing. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Big griners are more powerfull, but a pain to hold up for overhead > grinding. I've hadd great success withthe 5 inch makita , still going > strong after 21 years > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, bert andjan > wrote: > > So glad I'm part of this group, thanks loads for all > > the replies regarding angle grinders... Armed with > > all this advice I now head out into the real world, > > fearless, utterly fearless, fistfull of money in > > hand... we'll see what I come up with. Thanks again! > > > > Bert Eggers, Saginaw, Mi > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail | 7620|7616|2005-04-15 17:53:05|Alex Christie|Re: Credit card?|I signed up with a new Yahoo ID to see if I was asked for a card, and did not encounter such a thing. It's a mystery. He's in the group now without it after he tried again, in any case. If anyone else encounters something like this, let me know. Alex On 15-Apr-05, at 2:22 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > Mathew (mhs@... ) told me that he couldn't get on our website > because he doesn't have a credit card? I couldn't get on if that had > been the case when I joined, because I've never had a credit card or > bank loan in my life.Whatkiond of bullshit is this. Could anyone help > him out? He seems keen to start a boat. > > > | 7621|7616|2005-04-15 19:03:18|Gerd|Re: Credit card?|maybe it's good he did not have a card - that sounds to me like one of this new breed of phishing-pages that disguise as something respectable to make you trust them and give out your card number. I have heard about a recent case with a page that looked, smelled and felt like like a microsoft support page to make you download a trojan horse disguised as a security update... Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I signed up with a new Yahoo ID to see if I was asked for a card, and > did not encounter such a thing. It's a mystery. > > He's in the group now without it after he tried again, in any case. If > anyone else encounters something like this, let me know. > > Alex > > > On 15-Apr-05, at 2:22 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > Mathew (mhs@w... ) told me that he couldn't get on our website > > because he doesn't have a credit card? I couldn't get on if that had > > been the case when I joined, because I've never had a credit card or > > bank loan in my life.Whatkiond of bullshit is this. Could anyone help > > him out? He seems keen to start a boat. > > > > > > | 7622|7616|2005-04-15 19:49:26|Henri Naths|Re: Credit card?|Gerd, I recently received this warning, FYI > > Users are being warned to watch out for a fake Microsoft security update. > > Circulating as an e-mail the fake message points people at a bogus website > that claims to host critical security updates. > > But anyone downloading from the site will get a virus installed that opens > a backdoor into their computer the program's creators can exploit. > Security firms and Microsoft urged users to ensure they visit legitimate > sites when downloading updates. > > Fake sites > > Anti-virus firm Sophos spotted the e-mail which uses subject lines saying > "Urgent Windows Update" and "Important Windows Update". > > In the body of the message is a web link that looks like it should link to > the Windows Update website but in fact links to a site controlled by the > malicious hackers. > > Anyone downloading the fake update on the bogus web page will have their > computer infected with the DSNX-05 trojan. > > This opens a backdoor into the PC that could be exploited by the creators > of the malicious program. > > Anyone falling victim to this could leave computer owners vulnerable to > identity theft or having their computer used to send spam, attack other > sites or host dubious material. > > Microsoft said it only sent e-mails about security updates and incidents > to those that have explicitly asked to be sent them. > > Also it said it never sends out information about security problems before > its website has been updated with information about problems. > > This means that if users cannot find information about security problems > mentioned in an e-mail on the Microsoft site, they should be suspicious of > the message. > > Microsoft also urged users to type in the name of the website they are > trying to reach rather than use a hyperlink as these can hide spoof > websites. > > "Users must be very careful to be sure they are going to the official > update websites, rather than just following links in emails which have > been sent by hackers," said Graham Cluley, senior technology consultant at > Sophos. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: 15 April, 2005 5:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Credit card? > > > maybe it's good he did not have a card - that sounds to me like one > of this new breed of phishing-pages that disguise as something > respectable to make you trust them and give out your card number. I > have heard about a recent case with a page that looked, smelled and > felt like like a microsoft support page to make you download a > trojan horse disguised as a security update... > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: >> I signed up with a new Yahoo ID to see if I was asked for a card, > and >> did not encounter such a thing. It's a mystery. >> >> He's in the group now without it after he tried again, in any > case. If >> anyone else encounters something like this, let me know. >> >> Alex >> >> >> On 15-Apr-05, at 2:22 PM, brentswain38 wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Mathew (mhs@w... ) told me that he couldn't get on our website >> > because he doesn't have a credit card? I couldn't get on if that > had >> > been the case when I joined, because I've never had a credit > card or >> > bank loan in my life.Whatkiond of bullshit is this. Could anyone > help >> > him out? He seems keen to start a boat. >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7623|7581|2005-04-15 20:57:31|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|You know why they make all those right handed tools? Right handers would be so crippled if they found the switch on the wrong side they wouldn't be able to work. Only a few lefties suffer from that disability so the left handed tools are much harder to find. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kendall" To: Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: >> Again, please pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand. If we're >> talking grinders, isn't the 'blade' simply downward, if looking at the >> tool from above ? >> >> In any case, assuming I'm fully confused, what's the advantage of a left >> or right grinder ? >> >> Gratefully, >> >> Courtney >> > > Got me curious, so I did a quick search, and found that most places > show the exact same photo for either the 7430, or the 7430k, except for > this place, > http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/451021/2196 > > which doesn't show the switch, (visible in the otehr photos right > beside the side handle) on this page > > http://www.toolup.com/productinfo_froogle.asp?ID=7430&Manuf=Porter_Cable > > so by appearance, it is the switch position. everything else is the same. > > can't figure out why none of these places don't carry left and right > versions, or at least say something about right/left handedness. > Here in Grand Rapids Mi, there are only a couple of places you can > walk into and get either left or right tools, most carry right hand, > and there is one or two that carry left handers only (circ saws). > > > That second listing at $47.97 looks like a good deal > > ken. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7624|7581|2005-04-15 21:38:36|kendall|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > You know why they make all those right handed tools? Right handers would be > so crippled if they found the switch on the wrong side they wouldn't be able > to work. Only a few lefties suffer from that disability so the left handed > tools are much harder to find. > > Gary H. Lucas > Yeah I agree, most people get lost when they use my saws at work, and most of the tools and jigs I set up are designed left handed. I have no problem with tools of either 'set', used to be left handed, but broke my arm a couple times and can't write left handed anymore, not that well right handed either, but do most of everything else left handed. Ken.| 7625|5386|2005-04-16 07:49:49|sae140|Re: Bottom paint|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > Colin > Did that once, noticed my leg was getting hot, > looked down and noticed smoke, the wind had turned the apron into a > channel, and the sparks had followed the apron to my leg, and the > breeze had fanned them into flames, Hi Ken Yes - that's the scenario - highly focussed on the job in hand, maybe physical tunnel vision as well - easy to forget for an instant where those sparks are going ... > On the copper powder/epoxy paint, it would seem that if you were to > mix it copper rich, and apply it heavy, you'd be able to lightly sand > it and 'renew' it on occasion, instead of re-applying. > I don't think you'd need continueous contact of the capper particals, > just enough copper showing through the surface to do the job, so a > light sanding with fine paper should work well. > > ken. Yup, I think that's the story here - a light sanding from time to time until fresh copper shows. Not really what I had in mind though. In my usual pursuit of work-avoidance I was hoping for a "fit-it & forget-it" solution. My thoughts keep returning to the use of a thin copper strip - maybe 10 or 15 thou. thick and around 4" wide, epoxied to the bottom in long fore-and-aft strips. Could butt the strips up, wallpaper-hanging style. Ok on this plastic tub, especially as all the though-hulls have now been removed. But - on a steel boat ? Origami should be perfect for fitting such strips, as the hull starts-off life as a flat sheet to begin with. 4" open-weave glass tape could be epoxied underneath the strip to ensure that the copper and steel *never* come into contact with each other (except the possibility after a major impact - need for checking - could be done remotely with a meter). But still not sure. The idea of not having to scrub the bottom for 20 years or more is *so* appealing ..... But fears of electrolysis keep nagging away. And no good looking at conventional marine practice for a lead, as Brent has shown on so many occasions. Colin| 7626|7626|2005-04-16 10:49:01|MJF107UK|Damage control|Hi Colin Interesting points in the Hugo du Plessis article. What are your thoughts, about combing the double floors and sealed lockers that the article mentions with "Origami" construction. My concern is it going to cause hard points as discussed in the design group when talking about frames. In conventional construction the tanks are very often combined with the outer skin, in the event of damage you loose contents of the tank, but the boat stays afloat, is this accepted practice with "Origami" Michael Post from the design group You're right to say there are no construction frames, but there are also no frames added afterwards - in the traditional sense of lateral frames. There *are* longitudinal 'frames' in the form of stringers, and some 'quasi-frames' in the form of athwartship beams which support the keels, and also the tank tops. Brent Swain is very much against the hard points created by adding frames as this is generally thought to be where shear- generated punctures tend to occur. As someone who is currently repairing a hole immediately adjacent to a bulkhead, I can testify that this does indeed occur in practice ! However invented the (frameless) egg - got it right . Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: At the moment I'm repairing some fairly serious collision holes in the hull of a plastic tub and one of the problems I'm facing is restricted access to effect the repairs, due to the presence of an inner lining. During a search for inspiration last night, I came across: http://www.caribbeancompass.com/damagecont.htm and, although this article is primarily concerned with dealing with damage to fibreglass hulls at sea, I thought there might be some relevance to metal boats as well - as the author questions whether water-tight bulkheads have any place on a small yacht and so on ..... Imho, this article has that unmistakeable ring of extensive first-hand experience behind it, and is well worth a read. Colin --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7627|5386|2005-04-16 11:42:06|kendall|Re: Bottom paint|I'm thinking either way would work out, my boat is a pretty recent aquisition, so I haven't had a lot of experience with bottom paint, all the others I've had were trailerables, so didn't get a chance to collect any greenery. Not realy familiar with steel hulls other than what I've picked up here so can't offer any ideas on the copper/steel problem, The ideas sound, weren't some of the old clippers copper plated? ken.| 7628|7626|2005-04-16 17:05:49|sae140|Re: Damage control|Hi Michael just to keep everyone else up to speed - a reference was made recently to an Origami hull(?) and it's wooden deck parting company when the hull fell over. I posted to the BoatDesign Group that wooden decks probably aren't a very wise idea on an Origami hull, as the side-decks form part of the integral strength - and although some steel boat designs do have wooden decks fitted to a steel hull (e.g. Wylo-II c/board version), these are invariably fully framed hulls. Someone then commented that Origami hulls are framed after construction is completed. My post (below, ending with the egg comment) was in response to that. Hope that clarifies things. Michael - there's a wealth of expertise on this group, and I'll leave any detailed design comments in their capable hands. My understanding is that - in the most general of terms - distortion of the hull plating from collision is the generally accepted mode of preventing catastophic hull failure. The formation of a "double skin" below the waterline from tanks etc. is undoubtedly a wise idea on other types of hull more prone to puncture from shear forces. Having said this, tanks *are* often created in the bottom areas of Origami hulls - I believe that these are created in the already stiff area around the keels and short chine. Perhaps someone else with first-hand experience of this could comment further ? Regards, Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK wrote: > Hi Colin > > Interesting points in the Hugo du Plessis article. What are your thoughts, about combing the double floors and sealed lockers that the article mentions with "Origami" construction. My concern is it going to cause hard points as discussed in the design group when talking about frames. In conventional construction the tanks are very often combined with the outer skin, in the event of damage you loose contents of the tank, but the boat stays afloat, is this accepted practice with "Origami" > Michael > > Post from the design group > > You're right to say there are no construction frames, but > there are also no frames added afterwards - in the traditional > sense of lateral frames. There *are* longitudinal 'frames' in > the form of stringers, and some 'quasi-frames' in the form of > athwartship beams which support the keels, and also the tank > tops. > > Brent Swain is very much against the hard points created by > adding frames as this is generally thought to be where shear- > generated punctures tend to occur. > > As someone who is currently repairing a hole immediately adjacent > to a bulkhead, I can testify that this does indeed occur in > practice ! > > However invented the (frameless) egg - got it right . > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > At the moment I'm repairing some fairly serious collision > holes in the hull of a plastic tub and one of the problems > I'm facing is restricted access to effect the repairs, due > to the presence of an inner lining. During a search for > inspiration last night, I came across: > http://www.caribbeancompass.com/damagecont.htm > and, although this article is primarily concerned with > dealing with damage to fibreglass hulls at sea, I thought > there might be some relevance to metal boats as well - as > the author questions whether water-tight bulkheads have any > place on a small yacht and so on ..... > Imho, this article has that unmistakeable ring of extensive > first-hand experience behind it, and is well worth a read. > Colin > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7629|7581|2005-04-16 18:02:27|edward_stoneuk|Re: Which hand held angle grinder to buy?|Geoff, That's a good point about the vibration. I had forgotten about that when I posted. I hadn't noticed any difference between my Black & Decker and my Chinese 4½". Although Black & Decker is not the most expensive grinder. I did notice bad vibration with a batch of 4½" discs; it was bad enough to stop using them. I have a Bosch and a Chinese ½" drill. I bought the Chinese drill to use on a 6" and 5" hole-saw to cut out the ports in the cabin side. I used the drill in my drill stand, which I bolted to a steel frame which I tack welded in position. To get the correct very slow cutting speed I turned the speed controller right down then used force on the lever to bog the motor down and then tried to guess the revs. I put a piece of tape on the hole-saw to help count them, although getting a feel of how it was cutting was the best way. I will send a photo of the set up to Ted & Fiona's Boat Bots on the origamiboats 2 site. We cut one or occasionally two holes a day as the motor got very hot. I was very impressed at the way the drill stood up to it. Regards, Ted| 7630|7630|2005-04-17 04:54:24|Puck III|for sale on ebay|http://tinyurl.com/am88g| 7631|7630|2005-04-17 04:55:50|Puck III|for sale on ebay|http://tinyurl.com/am88g| 7632|7632|2005-04-17 04:59:22|guynew22|Hickman Sea Sled|Good Day all. came across this site about IVB boats based on the hickman Sea Sleds. http://ivb-boats.netfirms.com/HistoryOf-SeaSled.html Researching a little on the net, there was a comment made about the load carrying capablity of this hull form, so then I got to thinking that it might be possible to build a steel Catamaran or trmaran using this hull form. Was interested in thoughts on the hull form, if it seemed a viable possiblity. The theory seem promising, appears to use the bow wave to lift the boat thus crating less drag through the water. Thank you in advance, Fair winds Neil. "Nature adhors a vacuum, in the absense of things of importance, things are abitarily assigned importance then defend at great risk as the risk validates the import."| 7633|7632|2005-04-17 13:37:51|denis buggy|Re: Hickman Sea Sled|dear Neil this boat has no cabin and is I imagine weight sensitive as it may be a wig craft ( wing in ground effect ) and its performance may depend on the trapping and manipulating of air in the centre tunnel which will work in some conditions and at certain speeds when its efficiency comes into play however it is very sensitive to weight distribution and a mast would not help matters at all . the Russian ekroplans had eight engines either side of the pilots eardrums which deflected jet thrust under the wings to unstick it from the water and turbofans took over for regular flight this arrangement might sound strange however this aircraft could gross at 500 tons with its four cruise missiles pointing some 20 ft upwards above the fuselage ready for launching and it could and did circle the Caspian sea for years 100 ft off the waves using the amazing efficiencies of the boundary layer as the complimentary threat to the b52s circling the earth for years with their load . very tricky science and see wig groups at yahoo for further info re wig craft regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: guynew22 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hickman Sea Sled Good Day all. came across this site about IVB boats based on the hickman Sea Sleds. http://ivb-boats.netfirms.com/HistoryOf-SeaSled.html Researching a little on the net, there was a comment made about the load carrying capablity of this hull form, so then I got to thinking that it might be possible to build a steel Catamaran or trmaran using this hull form. Was interested in thoughts on the hull form, if it seemed a viable possiblity. The theory seem promising, appears to use the bow wave to lift the boat thus crating less drag through the water. Thank you in advance, Fair winds Neil. "Nature adhors a vacuum, in the absense of things of importance, things are abitarily assigned importance then defend at great risk as the risk validates the import." To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7634|7634|2005-04-17 14:07:26|tomjlee2000|Amigos...the last sermon|"A M I G O S" Religion is based I think primarily & mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said,the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes.Fear is the basis of the whole thing--fear of the mysterious,fear of defeat,fear of death.Fear is the parent of cruelty,and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty & religion have gone hand in hand.It is because fear is at the basis of those two things.In this world we can now begin a little to understand things,and a little to master them by help of science,which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion,against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations.Science can teach us,and I think our own hearts can teach us,no longer to look aaround for imaginary supports,no longer to invent allies in the sky,but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it. "Why I Am Not A Christian"---Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) "K I S"| 7635|7632|2005-04-17 14:48:43|Puck III|Re: Hickman Sea Sled|Hi Neil, the seasled has larger versions designed for the US Navy , some more recent MonoCat or TriPoint hull developments have been designed ( Origami frameless or not , steel & aluminum is possible :-) > Have a look at some designs & pics : > a MonoCat like Cousteau 's Halcyone see: > http://www.abmarine.fr/monocat%20voile.htm > or a special kind of Tri see the Bat'karé 40&60 : > http://tinyurl.com/4u9em and push on the > boat pic & design. > The Atlantic crossing capability is the easy part > of the wishlist , choosing the best smooth and > easy going hullform and boat for the sailing you > want to do is the more difficult part. > All boats are a compromise , some are the best > tools in a given situation and for a well determined > designgoal. > Anyway , looking at options and trying them out > sure is fun for anybody with an open mind. > I learn every day and to be frank , I love it :-) > I hope you will enjoy the designs & pics. > > Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "guynew22" wrote: > > Good Day all. came across this site about IVB boats based on the > hickman Sea Sleds. > > http://ivb-boats.netfirms.com/HistoryOf-SeaSled.html > > Researching a little on the net, there was a comment made about the > load carrying capablity of this hull form, so then I got to thinking > that it might be possible to build a steel Catamaran or trmaran using > this hull form. Was interested in thoughts on the hull form, if it > seemed a viable possiblity. The theory seem promising, appears to > use the bow wave to lift the boat thus crating less drag through the > water. > Thank you in advance, Fair winds Neil. > > "Nature adhors a vacuum, > in the absense of things of importance, > things are abitarily assigned importance > then defend at great risk as > the risk validates the import." | 7636|7634|2005-04-17 14:49:18|Earl Burgess|Re: Amigos...the last sermon|What is the connection to origamiboats? ----- Original Message ----- From: "tomjlee2000" To: Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 2:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Amigos...the last sermon > > > > > "A M I G O S" > > > Religion is based I think primarily & mainly upon fear. > > It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I > > have said,the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder > > brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and > > disputes.Fear is the basis of the whole thing--fear of the > > mysterious,fear of defeat,fear of death.Fear is the parent > > of cruelty,and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty & > > religion have gone hand in hand.It is because fear is at > > the basis of those two things.In this world we can now > > begin a little to understand things,and a little to master > > them by help of science,which has forced its way step by > > step against the Christian religion,against the churches, > > and against the opposition of all the old precepts. > > Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which > > mankind has lived for so many generations.Science can > > teach us,and I think our own hearts can teach us,no longer > > to look aaround for imaginary supports,no longer to invent > > allies in the sky,but rather to look to our own efforts > > here below to make this world a fit place to live in, > > instead of the sort of place that the churches in all > > these centuries have made it. > > "Why I Am Not A Christian"---Bertrand Russell > (1872-1970) > > > "K I S" > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7637|7637|2005-04-17 18:19:11|prairiemaidca|fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Hi All: I'm just finishing up the fuel tank on Prairie Maid and have been asking about what to do with the inside of the tank. Some people have said that a diesel tank that is properly blasted and then sprayed with or filled with diesel will cause no problems others say that a proper primer and then a fuel compatible paint is the only way to go. How about some opions from the group??? Martin and Betty Forster (Prairie Maid)| 7638|7632|2005-04-17 18:19:11|guynew22|Re: Hickman Sea Sled|Hi Denis, That is an interesting comment, But if you check the rest of the site, ... I read it as being the opposite, it sounds like if the hull is unweight it is more unstable but they show barges and if you read about Hickman himself He created an aircraft carry and PT boats. So I don't think your concerns are substantiated. Neil. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Neil this boat has no cabin and is I imagine weight sensitive as it may be a wig craft ( wing in ground effect ) and its performance may depend on the trapping and manipulating of air in the centre tunnel which will work in some conditions and at certain speeds when its efficiency comes into play however it is very sensitive to weight distribution and a mast would not help matters at all . > the Russian ekroplans had eight engines either side of the pilots eardrums which deflected jet thrust under the wings to unstick it from the water and turbofans took over for regular flight this arrangement might sound strange however this aircraft could gross at 500 tons with its four cruise missiles pointing some 20 ft upwards above the fuselage ready for launching and it could and did circle the Caspian sea for years 100 ft off the waves using the amazing efficiencies of the boundary layer as the complimentary threat to the b52s circling the earth for years with their load . very tricky science and see wig groups at yahoo for further info re wig craft regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: guynew22 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:59 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hickman Sea Sled > > > > Good Day all. came across this site about IVB boats based on the > hickman Sea Sleds. > > http://ivb-boats.netfirms.com/HistoryOf-SeaSled.html > > Researching a little on the net, there was a comment made about the > load carrying capablity of this hull form, so then I got to thinking > that it might be possible to build a steel Catamaran or trmaran using > this hull form. Was interested in thoughts on the hull form, if it > seemed a viable possiblity. The theory seem promising, appears to > use the bow wave to lift the boat thus crating less drag through the > water. > Thank you in advance, Fair winds Neil. > > "Nature adhors a vacuum, > in the absense of things of importance, > things are abitarily assigned importance > then defend at great risk as > the risk validates the import." > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7639|7637|2005-04-18 03:35:33|edward_stoneuk|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Martin and Betty I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank before pouring the last of the lead; then I intend welding a steel plate over the lead to make the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a difficulty in welding the plate at the forward end because of the 2½" round there and at the aft end because it is so narrow. This is exacerbated in my case because I accidently spashed lead up the narrow cleft either side of the forward round and in the narrow cleft at the aft join. It is very difficult to get it all out and it will be impossible to grind out the weld if it is not correct first time. I thought I might use epoxy to seal the tank in these places although I would rather not. The other option is to weld a vertical plate at the forward and aft ends and filling the void behind it with concrete or tar or something similar. I too would be interested in hearing folks experiences with their fuel tanks. Back on the farm the fuel tanks were only paintd on the outside. I dont think they where even blasted on the inside. That would be my preferred option as it is less work and expense. Regards, Ted| 7640|7637|2005-04-18 06:37:34|denis buggy|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|dear martin and betty paint is problem in tanks and diesel fuel has many components which will break paint down over time , many tanks in buses are plastic for this reason if you are storing your boat for a period fill the tank and prevent rust . Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: prairiemaidca To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] fuel tank (to paint or not to paint) Hi All: I'm just finishing up the fuel tank on Prairie Maid and have been asking about what to do with the inside of the tank. Some people have said that a diesel tank that is properly blasted and then sprayed with or filled with diesel will cause no problems others say that a proper primer and then a fuel compatible paint is the only way to go. How about some opions from the group??? Martin and Betty Forster (Prairie Maid) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7641|7637|2005-04-18 09:10:51|edward_stoneuk|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Martin and Betty This has some useful information on fuel installatons in boats. www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BW%20Guide%20Part%202.pdf Regards, Ted| 7642|7634|2005-04-18 15:31:18|tronfixr|Re: Amigos...the last sermon|A sail for Jesus not? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Burgess" wrote: > > What is the connection to origamiboats? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tomjlee2000" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 2:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Amigos...the last sermon > > > > > > > > > > > > "A M I G O S" > > > > > > Religion is based I think primarily & mainly upon fear. > > > > It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I > > > > have said,the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder > > > > brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and > > > > disputes.Fear is the basis of the whole thing--fear of the > > > > mysterious,fear of defeat,fear of death.Fear is the parent > > > > of cruelty,and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty & > > > > religion have gone hand in hand.It is because fear is at > > > > the basis of those two things.In this world we can now > > > > begin a little to understand things,and a little to master > > > > them by help of science,which has forced its way step by > > > > step against the Christian religion,against the churches, > > > > and against the opposition of all the old precepts. > > > > Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which > > > > mankind has lived for so many generations.Science can > > > > teach us,and I think our own hearts can teach us,no longer > > > > to look aaround for imaginary supports,no longer to invent > > > > allies in the sky,but rather to look to our own efforts > > > > here below to make this world a fit place to live in, > > > > instead of the sort of place that the churches in all > > > > these centuries have made it. > > > > "Why I Am Not A Christian"---Bertrand Russell > > (1872-1970) > > > > > > "K I S" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7643|7643|2005-04-18 16:03:41|prairiemaidca|boat safety site|Hi Ted; could not access anything todo with thier site at this time. Even their home page wouldn't respond. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 7644|7637|2005-04-18 17:49:25|..|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Ted The vertical plates are the best option,that way you will get good welds all round the fuel tank, it must be almost impossible to weld into the corners of the 2.5 round bar. You will then have a safety bulkhead behind the front of the keel ,so any glancing blow to the side of the front of the keel,that might damage the plate or weld will not cause a leak of fuel. This might sound like a joke but have you considered welding drain plugs in the side of the keels at the bottom of the tanks This will enable you to drain the fuel out when laid up and more importantly drain the water out which collects in the bottom of diesel tank,the water will rust the tank bottom and get into the places which have been difficult to weld such as the back of the round bar,that is why the bulkheads are a good idea. The drain plugs can be made as a flush fitting sealed on the outside with mastic and a patch, which you only dig out when you wish to drain the tanks,I am sure you know how much water collects in the bottom of tanks. It must be a good idea to paint the inside of the fuel tank if possible,you could fill the voids with used engine oil,tar or the tarmac road material heated as you put it in place, there's no shortage of that just look out for road works. Geoff Martin and Betty I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank before pouring the last of the lead; then I intend welding a steel plate over the lead to make the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a difficulty in welding the plate at the forward end because of the 2½" round there and at the aft end because it is so narrow. This is exacerbated in my case because I accidentally spashed lead up the narrow cleft either side of the forward round and in the narrow cleft at the aft join. It is very difficult to get it all out and it will be impossible to grind out the weld if it is not correct first time. I thought I might use epoxy to seal the tank in these places although I would rather not. The other option is to weld a vertical plate at the forward and aft ends and filling the void behind it with concrete or tar or something similar. I too would be interested in hearing folks experiences with their fuel tanks. Back on the farm the fuel tanks were only paintd on the outside. I dont think they where even blasted on the inside. That would be my preferred option as it is less work and expense. Regards, Ted --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7645|7645|2005-04-18 18:44:01|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Archive Updated|The search-a-riffic archive site has been updated to current. The archive contains 7,485 messages and can be searched in its entirety advertisement- and irritation-free. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html A link to the search site is in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web page if you should forget to bookmark it. --Hoop| 7646|7646|2005-04-18 23:25:50|vega1944|Homebuilt masts|For anyone on or close to mid Vancouver Island, who is contemplatingbuilding their own mast I have 40' of schedule 40 industrial aluminumpipe in two 20' sections for sale.Outside diameter 6 5/8", 5/16"thick.Asking C$350.00 Phone:250-468-7208, ask for Rick| 7647|5386|2005-04-19 00:02:45|Michael Casling|Re: Bottom paint|With regards to metal coatings and fiberglass hulls, the latter for Colin Heavy Oil. POR15 is a good metal covering for iron or steel, it is waterproof and it drys on wet days to a very smooth finish. I used it on my cast iron keel. Because it dried in cold damp weather and was very smooth when dry, I called POR and asked them if it would be suitable as a barrier coat on a fiberglass hull. They said it would work and that was about four years ago. I applied the antifouling paint over it and that paint has stuck very well. When the antifouling gets thin the POR shows through and it is still very slick. This year I decided to add filler to the keel to fix some casting imperfections, I used my Makita grinder and heavy paper. The stuff is hard and tenacious. I filled the keel and again painted it with POR before applying anti fouling paint. I think it is a crime to put a fiberglass hull in the water with no barrier coat protection. The gelcoat will absorb some water which I do not think is a good thing even if the boat does not develop blisters. I see too many boats out of the water for too long while repairs are being made. It could have been prevented by spending a little on some paint I found them quite user friendly. I do not sell the stuff or am in any way connected with POR, but I am happy with the results, especially the extra benefit of using it on a fiberglass hull. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kendall To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bottom paint I'm thinking either way would work out, my boat is a pretty recent aquisition, so I haven't had a lot of experience with bottom paint, all the others I've had were trailerables, so didn't get a chance to collect any greenery. Not realy familiar with steel hulls other than what I've picked up here so can't offer any ideas on the copper/steel problem, The ideas sound, weren't some of the old clippers copper plated? ken. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7648|7648|2005-04-19 02:21:05|Mike|Hope all are well/some thoughts on welding|For the past while, I have been too busy to catch up on the Yahoo groups to which I belong. Strangely, I have not received posts on this group, though I had my membership set to "daily digest". Due to being caught in a recent mass lay-off at Vancouver Drydock, I now have some time to catch-up on what's happening with my favourite groups (origamiboats, low-cost voyaging). I see Alex has his "tub" in the water, well done! In the next few days I'll look for build photos in the appropriate sections, from the cover photo, she looks like a "pleaser". Hope the video is soon to be finished & available. While at the Drydock, aside from the massive refit on the "Queen of Oak Bay", I took part in the refit of two barges("Seaspan930", "Alaska Trader"). As with other members of this group, I believed that welding with gas-shielded wire was a process best left for sheltered conditions. Well, there I was, along with a dozen or more other welders, using .045 GS Flux-core on the deck & bows of the Seaspan930(a rail barge), through wind & rain. We used plywood boards to act as wind shields - which tended to be blown down countless times during the day - and ran our gas at 40-50 cfh, rather than the usual 25-35 cfh, holding a really tight arc. The only porosity came when welding during or after the rain, due more to the primed deck that we were welding baseplates to, and the crap that was washed around and under the baseplates by the rain. The worst part of the job was when the rains were heavy & we had to switch to 7024, as the welds were up to an inch under water. Here's a question for the veteran welders of the group - Richytill, et al - Is self-shielding really that much more expensive? Anyway, the experience of using wire out-of-doors took a lot of the hoodoo-voodoo out of it for this former fab. shop welder. I think, based on speed of process, that I'll probably use wire when I build my first Swain. I don't know when that'll ever happen as I just bought a '58 & a '59 Chev truck to restore. I suppose, when the video(s) become available with the plans, I'll have two trucks for sale, still unrestored! Ah, well, time to go get a beer & try to catch-up on what's been happening in the group. Best wishes to all, Mike| 7649|7643|2005-04-19 03:06:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: boat safety site|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > Hi Ted; could not access anything todo with thier site at this time. > Even their home page wouldn't respond. > Martin (Prairie Maid) Martin and Betty, I have just tried it again, both: www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BW%20Guide%20Part%202.pdf and www.boatsafetyscheme.com They both worked OK. Perhaps the site was down for a bit. Regards, Ted| 7650|7637|2005-04-19 03:34:47|edward_stoneuk|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Geoff, Thanks for the reply. The idea for the fuel tank sump, which is a 3" pipe with the bottom cut on the slant and plated is to collect the water so that it can be pumped out. From memory, Brian Young on the Metal Boat Society's Forum recommends that when the engine is running fuel is pumped continuously through a filtration system the surplus clean fuel being returned to the tanks. I thought I might try that or at least have a pumped condensate removal pipe that is lower than the fuel pipe so that the boat does not have to be out of the water to remove any condensate in the tank. Water in the fuel, whether it comes in when refilling or is condensate is a major enemy of diesel engines and does so, I understand, encourage bacteria to breed in the fuel leading to blocked filters. When I lived in the tropics I was suprised at the amount of grey sludge that kept blocking the tractors' filters. This was I understand bacteria. Regards, Ted| 7651|7643|2005-04-19 04:26:34|sae140|Re: boat safety site|Mornin' all Ted's link caused this machine to lock-up this morning (doesn't take a lot with IE5 ...) Something to do with underscores being replaced by spaces (?). Suggest you go in through the front door at: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/ then click on the "Get the Guide" button. Have just tried this - works ok. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > wrote: > > > > Hi Ted; could not access anything todo with thier site at this > time. > > Even their home page wouldn't respond. > > Martin (Prairie Maid) > > Martin and Betty, > > I have just tried it again, both: > > www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BW%20Guide%20Part%202.pdf > > and > > www.boatsafetyscheme.com > > They both worked OK. > > Perhaps the site was down for a bit. > > Regards, > Ted | 7652|5386|2005-04-19 04:28:57|sae140|Re: Bottom paint|Thanks for the tip Michael I've found a UK source for POR15 - http://www.frost.co.uk/ It appears that POR15 is actually a range of products (?) - including fuel tank sealants, rust-proof coatings, etch primers etc. Not cheap (at £16 a pint) - but if it does the job .... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > With regards to metal coatings and fiberglass hulls, the latter for Colin Heavy Oil. > > POR15 is a good metal covering for iron or steel, it is waterproof and it drys on wet days to a very smooth finish. I used it on my cast iron keel. Because it dried in cold damp weather and was very smooth when dry, I called POR and asked them if it would be suitable as a barrier coat on a fiberglass hull. They said it would work and that was about four years ago. I applied the antifouling paint over it and that paint has stuck very well. When the antifouling gets thin the POR shows through and it is still very slick. > > This year I decided to add filler to the keel to fix some casting imperfections, I used my Makita grinder and heavy paper. The stuff is hard and tenacious. I filled the keel and again painted it with POR before applying anti fouling paint. > > I think it is a crime to put a fiberglass hull in the water with no barrier coat protection. The gelcoat will absorb some water which I do not think is a good thing even if the boat does not develop blisters. I see too many boats out of the water for too long while repairs are being made. It could have been prevented by spending a little on some paint > > I found them quite user friendly. I do not sell the stuff or am in any way connected with POR, but I am happy with the results, especially the extra benefit of using it on a fiberglass hull. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kendall > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:41 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bottom paint > > > > > I'm thinking either way would work out, my boat is a pretty recent > aquisition, so I haven't had a lot of experience with bottom paint, > all the others I've had were trailerables, so didn't get a chance to > collect any greenery. > > Not realy familiar with steel hulls other than what I've picked up > here so can't offer any ideas on the copper/steel problem, The ideas > sound, weren't some of the old clippers copper plated? > > ken. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7653|7426|2005-04-19 05:33:01|jim_both|Re: watermaker technology|Another homemade watermaker with plans, parts list, schmatics etc from Glenn Ashmore's website: http://www.rutuonline.com/html/watermaker.html jim_both --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > > I've been thinking about watermakers also. > > the Wolf watermakers seem to me like overkill for a small > cruising boat -- costly, fairly large, have to run the engine, > etc. I wouldn't mind being able to make only 5 or 10 gal in a > day, myself... seems like to run the unit often enough to > keep it clean and happy, you'd have go go into the water-lighter > business and sell to other boats :-) or just dump the stuff > overside which seems a waste. > > > as far as I can tell, solar passive evap is suitable for > emergency/survival use only as it produces a tiny trickle > of water. > > > gravity feed/low power RO has its appeal > > http://www.sesltd.com.au/html/waterpure.htm > > but this system is obviously way too large for a boat. > a scaled down version could be imagined though, usable > at anchor in sunny weather, where you would haul a pillow > tank up the mainmast with a tackle to get the grav feed. > I don't know how well this setup would do with sea water > though, it is recommended for "brackish" input. the > byflow is adequate to rinse the system nicely. > > > then there is the legendary Waterlog > > http://www.watermakers.ws/ > > an impeller-driven towed watermaker which the mfrs claim > produces from 26 (bottom of the line) to 79 (top) gal per > diem. it sounds really good, but requires a tow speed of > 4 kts minimum and prefers 5. an optional 12v motor will > drive the thing, with considerable battery drain. > > I remain skeptical about this gizmo. the company claims > good support with parts, easy self-maint etc but there are > rumours about non-delivery, tardy turnaround in servicing, > failure to communicate. maybe it is just a scam? I have > also heard that it needs to be presoaked before deployment, > and that it produces nothing for the first half hour or > so of use... so as usual it is unlikely to be as nifty > as the mfr claims. > > if anyone knows more about these I'd be interested. seems to > me if the design worked all that well it would have been sold > by now to a bigger manufacturer. too good to be true? > > > burning fuel or wood to power a desal still seems crazy, esp. > since the summer should be a time when you can economise on > heating costs. > > > and then there are the Katadyn and Pur units, small and > relatively cheap, some hand powered (low capacity). I like > the idea of emergency hand operation, and a clever sailor > should be able to rig a way to pump one of these things > using a flopperstopper over the side or at least a treadle > mechanism for foot power... > > > are there any other technologies out there, or is that it? > > > > de > > .................................................................... ........ > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: | 7654|7645|2005-04-19 13:31:22|Gordon Schnell|Re: Origamiboats Archive Updated|Hoop I love this search engine. Thanks! Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7655|7655|2005-04-19 17:07:37|epoxyplymadman|Merritt Walter|Does anyone know what happened to Merritt Walter and his collection of "ROVER" designs? I'm baffled with my inability to find information on Merrritt Walter through an on going search that leaves no conclusions other than a feeling (gut feeling, that is)that he "Walter Merritt" may have left the the world of boats behind him never to return again for some unknown reason..........? Best regards to all and anyone that may have some insight on M.W.'s remarkable imprint. Pierre LaRochelle| 7656|5386|2005-04-19 20:02:46|Michael Casling|Re: Bottom paint|It is pricey but cheaper than having your boat sit in the yard for many months waiting for the hull to dry out. That is the fate of a C&C30 and a CS36 locally. They were there in November when I had my boat taken out and they were still then when I went in last week. Add the cost of stoorage to the other espenses of repairing the bottom and it starts to look reasonable, and you only have to paint it once. I liked the fact that I could talk to them on their shilling and they were nice to talk to. The folks at Interlux were not as user friendly. I have heard of problems getting a smooth finish with tar epoxy and problems with getting stuff to stick to it. Tar epoxy can also disolve some fillers. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bottom paint Thanks for the tip Michael I've found a UK source for POR15 - http://www.frost.co.uk/ It appears that POR15 is actually a range of products (?) - including fuel tank sealants, rust-proof coatings, etch primers etc. Not cheap (at £16 a pint) - but if it does the job .... Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7657|7637|2005-04-19 20:04:17|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|I've always used epoxy tar for fuel tanks since 1982. No problem. I did once have a diesel tank of bare steel. It rusted on the top where the diesel wouldn't protect it unless it was totally full, and on the bottom when a bit of condensation got in. It wasn't that old at the time . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > > > Hi All: I'm just finishing up the fuel tank on Prairie Maid and have > been asking about what to do with the inside of the tank. Some people > have said that a diesel tank that is properly blasted and then sprayed > with or filled with diesel will cause no problems others say that a > proper primer and then a fuel compatible paint is the only way to go. > How about some opions from the group??? > Martin and Betty Forster (Prairie Maid) | 7658|7637|2005-04-19 20:06:34|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|A hot 6011 pass is the best way to seal those ends.6011 is the only rod that will weld thru it's own slag. I they don't seal completely, a bit of diesel in your ballast won't hurt anmything. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Martin and Betty > I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel > tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank > before pouring the last of the lead; then I intend welding a steel > plate over the lead to make the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a > difficulty in welding the plate at the forward end because of the 2½" > round there and at the aft end because it is so narrow. This is > exacerbated in my case because I accidently spashed lead up the narrow > cleft either side of the forward round and in the narrow cleft at the > aft join. It is very difficult to get it all out and it will be > impossible to grind out the weld if it is not correct first time. I > thought I might use epoxy to seal the tank in these places although I > would rather not. The other option is to weld a vertical plate at the > forward and aft ends and filling the void behind it with concrete or > tar or something similar. > > I too would be interested in hearing folks experiences with their fuel > tanks. Back on the farm the fuel tanks were only paintd on the > outside. I dont think they where even blasted on the inside. That > would be my preferred option as it is less work and expense. > > Regards, > Ted | 7659|7637|2005-04-19 20:09:11|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Drain plugs would be more of a liability than an asset as they would ake it possible for seawater to seep into your fuel if they werent done up totally watertight. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > Ted > The vertical plates are the best option,that way you will get good welds all > round the fuel tank, > it must be almost impossible to weld into the corners of the 2.5 round bar. > You will then have a safety bulkhead behind the front of the keel ,so any > glancing blow to the side > of the front of the keel,that might damage the plate or weld will not cause > a leak of fuel. > This might sound like a joke but have you considered welding drain plugs in > the side of the keels > at the bottom of the tanks > This will enable you to drain the fuel out when laid up and more importantly > drain the water out which > collects in the bottom of diesel tank,the water will rust the tank bottom > and get into the places > which have been difficult to weld such as the back of the round bar,that is > why the bulkheads > are a good idea. > The drain plugs can be made as a flush fitting sealed on the outside with > mastic and a patch, > which you only dig out when you wish to drain the tanks,I am sure you know > how much water > collects in the bottom of tanks. > It must be a good idea to paint the inside of the fuel tank if possible,you > could fill the voids with > used engine oil,tar or the tarmac road material heated as you put it in > place, there's no shortage > of that just look out for road works. > Geoff > > Martin and Betty > I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel > tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank > before pouring the last of the lead; then I intend welding a steel > plate over the lead to make the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a > difficulty in welding the plate at the forward end because of the 2½" > round there and at the aft end because it is so narrow. This is > exacerbated in my case because I accidentally spashed lead up the narrow > cleft either side of the forward round and in the narrow cleft at the > aft join. It is very difficult to get it all out and it will be > impossible to grind out the weld if it is not correct first time. I > thought I might use epoxy to seal the tank in these places although I > would rather not. The other option is to weld a vertical plate at the > forward and aft ends and filling the void behind it with concrete or > tar or something similar. > > I too would be interested in hearing folks experiences with their fuel > tanks. Back on the farm the fuel tanks were only paintd on the > outside. I dont think they where even blasted on the inside. That > would be my preferred option as it is less work and expense. > > Regards, > Ted > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7660|7637|2005-04-19 20:14:18|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|I use a diesel addative fungicide regularly to prevent any bugs from getting started in my tanks. It's a real problem in the tropics, but can happen in the high lattitudes as well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Geoff, > > Thanks for the reply. The idea for the fuel tank sump, which is a 3" > pipe with the bottom cut on the slant and plated is to collect the > water so that it can be pumped out. From memory, Brian Young on the > Metal Boat Society's Forum recommends that when the engine is running > fuel is pumped continuously through a filtration system the surplus > clean fuel being returned to the tanks. I thought I might try that or > at least have a pumped condensate removal pipe that is lower than the > fuel pipe so that the boat does not have to be out of the water to > remove any condensate in the tank. Water in the fuel, whether it > comes in when refilling or is condensate is a major enemy of diesel > engines and does so, I understand, encourage bacteria to breed in the > fuel leading to blocked filters. When I lived in the tropics I was > suprised at the amount of grey sludge that kept blocking the tractors' > filters. This was I understand bacteria. > > Regards, > Ted | 7661|7632|2005-04-19 22:41:58|guynew22|Re: Hickman Sea Sled|Thanks Ben that first site is really interesting will have to try find an english version. Fairs winds, Neil. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > > Hi Neil, the seasled has larger versions designed for > the US Navy , some more recent MonoCat or TriPoint > hull developments have been designed ( Origami > frameless or not , steel & aluminum is possible :-) > > > Have a look at some designs & pics : > > a MonoCat like Cousteau 's Halcyone see: > > http://www.abmarine.fr/monocat%20voile.htm > > or a special kind of Tri see the Bat'karé 40&60 : > > http://tinyurl.com/4u9em and push on the > > boat pic & design. > > > The Atlantic crossing capability is the easy part > > of the wishlist , choosing the best smooth and > > easy going hullform and boat for the sailing you > > want to do is the more difficult part. > > All boats are a compromise , some are the best > > tools in a given situation and for a well determined > > designgoal. > > > Anyway , looking at options and trying them out > > sure is fun for anybody with an open mind. > > I learn every day and to be frank , I love it :-) > > I hope you will enjoy the designs & pics. > > > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "guynew22" > wrote: > > > > Good Day all. came across this site about IVB boats based on > the > > hickman Sea Sleds. > > > > http://ivb-boats.netfirms.com/HistoryOf-SeaSled.html > > > > Researching a little on the net, there was a comment made > about the > > load carrying capablity of this hull form, so then I got to thinking > > that it might be possible to build a steel Catamaran or trmaran > using > > this hull form. Was interested in thoughts on the hull form, if it > > seemed a viable possiblity. The theory seem promising, > appears to > > use the bow wave to lift the boat thus crating less drag through > the > > water. > > Thank you in advance, Fair winds Neil. > > > > "Nature adhors a vacuum, > > in the absense of things of importance, > > things are abitarily assigned importance > > then defend at great risk as > > the risk validates the import." | 7662|7655|2005-04-20 06:08:02|sae140|Re: Merritt Walter|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "epoxyplymadman" wrote: > > Does anyone know what happened to Merritt Walter and his collection > of "ROVER" designs? > > I'm baffled with my inability to find information on Merrritt Walter > through an on going search Eh? 60 seconds with Google "Merritt Walter Rover" turned up: http://www.bonnyblue.com/founders.html - and there he is ! Nice looking boats, but a tad on the big side for ordinary mortals (?) Glad to help. Highly recommend Google as a search engine. Colin > that leaves no conclusions other than a > feeling (gut feeling, that is)that he "Walter Merritt" may have left > the the world of boats behind him never to return again for some > unknown reason..........? > > Best regards to all and anyone that may have some insight on M.W.'s > remarkable imprint. > > Pierre LaRochelle | 7663|7655|2005-04-20 06:18:45|sae140|Re: Merritt Walter|Merritt Walter and http://www.bonnyblue.com Snafu in previous post: Bonnyblue is something akin to a passenger liner - an example the "nice looking boats" I referred to can be found at: http://www.downeastrover.com/ Similar style to Tom Colvin's classics (?) Colin| 7664|7655|2005-04-21 11:53:25|epoxyplymadman|Re: Merritt Walter|Your 60 (SIXTY!) seconds did not lead to a catalog of "ROVER DESIGNS" by Merritt Walter! Thanks.........I should have held-on to the Merritt Walter plans catalog I had possesion of back in the 70's. Best regards, Not looking for the obvious! Pierre --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "epoxyplymadman" > wrote: > > > > Does anyone know what happened to Merritt Walter and his collection > > of "ROVER" designs? > > > > I'm baffled with my inability to find information on Merrritt > Walter > > through an on going search > > > Eh? 60 seconds with Google "Merritt Walter Rover" turned up: > http://www.bonnyblue.com/founders.html - and there he is ! > > Nice looking boats, but a tad on the big side for ordinary > mortals (?) > > Glad to help. Highly recommend Google as a search engine. > > Colin > > > > that leaves no conclusions other than a > > feeling (gut feeling, that is)that he "Walter Merritt" may have > left > > the the world of boats behind him never to return again for some > > unknown reason..........? > > > > Best regards to all and anyone that may have some insight on M.W.'s > > remarkable imprint. > > > > Pierre LaRochelle | 7665|7637|2005-04-21 13:17:16|..|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|I would not expect anyone in this group to put the drain plugs in without the use of a thread sealant as use on pipe work. Any connection to the hull or pipe work is a liability if done incorrectly, without a thread sealant, even the hull welds if the welding is poor. Even with the best fuel suction system water and dirt will still collect in the bottom of the tank, Ted's idea to pump the fuel round through a filter is good but it still might not pick up all the water in the bottom of the tank as the well or bottom of the tank will always be at an angle due to the motion of the hull. My heating oil tank was only painted on the outside, it rusted through at the inside corner where it had been welded ,this was due to water in the bottom which could not be drained completely I lost all the 150 gal of oil,our heating oil is the same as diesel fuel. I did not make the tank and had no way if inspecting the inside as it did not have a manhole. Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- >Drain plugs would be more of a liability than an asset as they would >ake it possible for seawater to seep into your fuel if they werent >done up totally watertight. >Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > Ted > The vertical plates are the best option,that way you will get good welds all > round the fuel tank, > it must be almost impossible to weld into the corners of the 2.5 round bar. > You will then have a safety bulkhead behind the front of the keel ,so any > glancing blow to the side > of the front of the keel,that might damage the plate or weld will not cause > a leak of fuel. > This might sound like a joke but have you considered welding drain plugs in > the side of the keels > at the bottom of the tanks > This will enable you to drain the fuel out when laid up and more importantly > drain the water out which > collects in the bottom of diesel tank,the water will rust the tank bottom > and get into the places > which have been difficult to weld such as the back of the round bar,that is > why the bulkheads > are a good idea. > The drain plugs can be made as a flush fitting sealed on the outside with > mastic and a patch, > which you only dig out when you wish to drain the tanks,I am sure you know > how much water > collects in the bottom of tanks. > It must be a good idea to paint the inside of the fuel tank if possible,you > could fill the voids with > used engine oil,tar or the tarmac road material heated as you put it in > place, there's no shortage > of that just look out for road works. > Geoff > > Martin and Betty > I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel > tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank > before pouring the last of the lead; then I intend welding a steel > plate over the lead to make the bottom of the fuel tank. There is a > difficulty in welding the plate at the forward end because of the 2½" > round there and at the aft end because it is so narrow. This is > exacerbated in my case because I accidentally spashed lead up the narrow > cleft either side of the forward round and in the narrow cleft at the > aft join. It is very difficult to get it all out and it will be > impossible to grind out the weld if it is not correct first time. I > thought I might use epoxy to seal the tank in these places although I > would rather not. The other option is to weld a vertical plate at the > forward and aft ends and filling the void behind it with concrete or > tar or something similar. > > I too would be interested in hearing folks experiences with their fuel > tanks. Back on the farm the fuel tanks were only paintd on the > outside. I dont think they where even blasted on the inside. That > would be my preferred option as it is less work and expense. > > Regards, > Ted > > > --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7666|7637|2005-04-21 13:22:18|..|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Brent, Will it just be diesel ,what about the water getting into the ballast? Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >A hot 6011 pass is the best way to seal those ends.6011 is the only >rod that will weld thru it's own slag. I they don't seal completely, >a bit of diesel in your ballast won't hurt anmything. >Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Martin and Betty > I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel > tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7667|7637|2005-04-21 15:20:39|denis buggy|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|dear all re diesel tank . we operate buses here in Ireland for the past 52 years and we burn our share of diesel . any tank we replaced we made by rolling a round and leaving the seam on top we used 3 or 4 mm plate and put plenty of weld on the seams 50% success first time and you do an 2 inch pass with the mig an inch before the leak and finishing an inch after leaves a strong job. two or three baffles are put in before the last end is welded and of you can try and fill it on the end which is sloped to bottom as any cheap plastic siphon will remove any water and debris , put the suction between centre and the far end and leave a slope of 1 inch . this should keep the suction end 3ft+ away from the dregs . the most important item is not the tank but the sediment bowl a good quality one can be got in a breakers yard , get the biggest you can holding at least a pint and if possible with a glass or clear plastic section to view contents and colour . the bigger the bowl the more time sediment has to be trapped . place over top fuel level of tank and it will not act as a siphon and drain your tank when broken/cleaning. underground tanks in filling stations do not have a drain plug they are always cleaned by a suction pump which simply pumps the dregs into a barrel until clear fuel comes , do not add a bung or drain fixtures if at all possible as they will always leak or fight with the tank being of dissimilar metal . regards denis . ----- Original Message ----- From: .. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 6:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint) Brent, Will it just be diesel ,what about the water getting into the ballast? Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >A hot 6011 pass is the best way to seal those ends.6011 is the only >rod that will weld thru it's own slag. I they don't seal completely, >a bit of diesel in your ballast won't hurt anmything. >Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Martin and Betty > I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel > tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7668|7637|2005-04-21 16:06:47|seeratlas|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|well, if it was me, and on my boat it will be 'me', heheh, here's what i'm going to do. So far I've seen black iron tanks, untreated steel tanks, epoxied steel tanks, stainless tanks, plastic tanks, and aluminum tanks, in the various boats I've either owned, my family has owned, or that i've just been 'around'. First off, 1. diesel from the best distributers and made from the finest light sweet crude is corrosive stuff. 2. what you normally get is much worse, 3. some of the 'bad' stuff you're likely to get is horrendous. It comes with god knows how many different compounds and in the process of sloshing around over time, it creates more than few others all by itself. So,, despite the fact that I believe the Coast Guard forbids bottom sump taps on tanks, I'm putting them in anyway. Nothing beats gravity for concentrating sludge, water, and sediment, and I like working with gravity as opposed to against it. These bottom taps have to be VERY strong, and strategically located so as to not be vulnerable to being knocked off the tank by the movement of flying objects, but otherwise, they are just too darned useful to omit. Your fuel pickup points should of course (as noted previously) be located some distance above and away. Imho no tank over a few gallons should be constructed without a large, well sealing inspection port. Nothing like confirming visually that all is well inside your fuel tank. For baffled mild steel tanks, which is what i'm going to use, I see no reason whatsoever not to lay down a very liberal coating of a known to be fuel resistant epoxy inside the tank. Do it right, do it once and be done with it. As for the difficult areas described in early posts where seals are difficult to insure, I would seriously think about a plasticized cement worked into the hard to reach areas, then once you have a more reasonable built up surface to work with, epoxy THAT surface and indeed the rest of the interior of the tank. Doesn't matter that the seal is over the cement covering the questionable area as long as you ensure you have a homogenous seal over the entire interior. Peace of mind when involved in potentially life- threatening enterprises such as bobbing about on the open ocean, is beyond monetary value. Now its true that I may be more engine centric than most 'sailors' but when the seas are up and catastrophe looms if you can't manuever RIGHT NOW!!, I'd rather be turning the key on the starter of an engine that I KNOW is going to fire, than beseeching the almighty for divine intervention in securing a favorable shift in the prevailing winds.....not to say that BOTH wouldn't be appreciated, (and acknowleding that not entirely infrequently, 'both' have been employed :) seer :)| 7669|7637|2005-04-21 19:04:33|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|If it's a diesel tank there willbe no problem. Any water that may get in will have all oxygen sealed out by the layer of diesel on top of it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > Brent, > Will it just be diesel ,what about the water getting into the ballast? > Geoff > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >A hot 6011 pass is the best way to seal those ends.6011 is the only > >rod that will weld thru it's own slag. I they don't seal completely, > >a bit of diesel in your ballast won't hurt anmything. > >Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Martin and Betty > > I am working on the twin keels at the moment. They will have fuel > > tanks in them. I am making a sump for the bottom of the fuel tank > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7670|7655|2005-04-22 05:14:30|sae140|Re: Merritt Walter|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "epoxyplymadman" wrote: > > Your 60 (SIXTY!) seconds did not lead to a catalog of "ROVER > DESIGNS" by Merritt Walter! Sorry about that - a dismal failure ... [tongue held firmly in cheek] In all seriousness, I'd recommend you write to him (no email address it appears), as I'm sure he'd be well pleased that folk hold him in high regard, especially now he's semi-retired (which was your guess) - who knows - you might even get an old catalogue by return ? Best of luck Colin > Thanks.........I should have held-on to the Merritt Walter plans > catalog I had possesion of back in the 70's. > > Best regards, > > Not looking for the obvious! > > Pierre | 7671|7637|2005-04-22 05:39:52|sae140|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > > Ted's idea to pump the fuel round through a filter is good > but it still might not pick up all the water in > the bottom of the tank as the well or bottom of the tank will > always be at an angle due to the motion of the hull. On the subject of re-circulating diesel: half-full tanks can froth in a bad blow despite the baffles, so if you're going to re-circulate aeriated fuel, the use of a permanently full 'feeder tank' fitted low down (with a vent pipe led up high) is highly recommended. > My heating oil tank was only painted on the outside, it rusted > through at the inside corner where it had been welded ,this > was due to water in the bottom which could not be drained > completely I've lost 2 the same way - rusted through at the bottom from water in the oil - dunno where it gets the oxygen from (?) as there's always oil above the water .... The POR15 stuff Michael mentioned sounds good (perhaps too good ? cynic that I am) and claims to be suitable for inside all fuel tanks and will even seal small leaks. I'll be trying out a sample 'directly to rust' over the summer (but only a rudder blade at this stage) and will keep you posted. Colin| 7672|7637|2005-04-22 08:34:00|edward_stoneuk|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Colin, I remember you saying before about having problems with fuel frothing in rough weather. That and condensate collection is the idea behind my 3" pipe sumps in the keel tanks. The bottom is cut on a slant so that at most boat angles the bottom will stay the bottom. As the boat moves all sediment and water will, over time, should find its way there. Whether that sediment and water is removed by undoing a drain plug as Geoff suggest or opening a valve as Seer suggests or sucked out as most everyone else suggests is in itself not relevant. The making of a low place or sump in the tank base to collect the water and sediment is the pertinent point. If that sump is deep enough and not too wide it will, to a certain extent act lke a closed vessel and lessen the problem of frothing. Unfotunately mine are not as deep as I would like them as I forgot to put them in until there was nearly all the lead in place. Regards, Ted| 7673|7637|2005-04-22 08:42:16|edward_stoneuk|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Brent, I would be very grateful if you could advise on your fuel tank tar epoxy painting method. Did you blast and prime? What type of tar epoxy? How many coats? Brush, roller or sparay? Thanks Regards, Ted| 7674|7655|2005-04-22 10:33:12|epoxyplymadman|Re: Merritt Walter|Thank you for the affirmation. It would really be nice to resurrect his (M.W.'s)steel boat designs. Pierre --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "epoxyplymadman" > wrote: > > > > Your 60 (SIXTY!) seconds did not lead to a catalog of "ROVER > > DESIGNS" by Merritt Walter! > > Sorry about that - a dismal failure ... > [tongue held firmly in cheek] > > In all seriousness, I'd recommend you write to him (no > email address it appears), as I'm sure he'd be well > pleased that folk hold him in high regard, especially > now he's semi-retired (which was your guess) - who knows > - you might even get an old catalogue by return ? > > Best of luck > > Colin > > > > > Thanks.........I should have held-on to the Merritt Walter plans > > catalog I had possesion of back in the 70's. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Not looking for the obvious! > > > > Pierre | 7676|7676|2005-04-23 15:16:04|chrycapt|boats dimensions|I'm interested in the 31 or the 36 foot boats but cannot find the loa lod lwl beam or any of the other normal dimensions you would find on sail boats. Where do I go to get this information?| 7677|7676|2005-04-23 15:17:52|chrycapt|boats dimensions|I'm interested in the 31 or the 36 foot boats but cannot find the loa lod lwl beam or any of the other normal dimensions you would find on sail boats. Where do I go to get this information?| 7678|7678|2005-04-23 17:03:21|jericoera|which rods? which settings DC welding a Swain|I just popped a new hydro pole in the ground today and will have my shop set up for welding by the end of the month. Once I get a bit of practivce under my belt, I am wondering which rods to use for stick welding in DC mode on the welder and how much amperage is best for the steel hull of a Swain. I am told that because i have the option, that i should be welding DC with elctrode positive (DCEP). I do also have the choice of AC or DC, electrode negative (DCEN) Amperage and rods please? Carl McIntosh| 7679|7637|2005-04-23 17:07:46|brentswain38|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|I'd use at least three coats. Brush , roller or spray, it doesn't matter which. Most of my boats are done with wheelabraded and primed steel, but if it weren't, I'd sandblast the inside.I wouldn't bother with primer there if it weren't already on wheelabraded and primed plate.Most paint companies make epoxy tar. Most are 4 to one hardner mix, but international uses aone to one. It doesn't have the same shelf life as the four to one, but is easier to keep the components in the right ratio for small touch up jobs. One client used stainless angle around the edges of the watertank , with the whole top being bolt on, for extremely easy access, as long as you don't lock it in by building a difficult to remove interior over it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Brent, > I would be very grateful if you could advise on your fuel tank tar > epoxy painting method. > > Did you blast and prime? > What type of tar epoxy? > How many coats? > Brush, roller or sparay? > > Thanks > Regards, > Ted | 7680|7678|2005-04-23 17:11:58|brentswain38|Re: which rods? which settings DC welding a Swain|Carl I use 1/8th 6011 at 90 amps for uphand, overhead and light stuff. For DC, 6010 would be better, but no good for AC. For big hrizontal welds I use 1/8th 7024 at 225 amps AC. They don't like DC. For chines, 5/32 6011s at 125 amps ac or 6010's at the same amperages DC works well. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > I just popped a new hydro pole in the ground today and will have my > shop set up for welding by the end of the month. Once I get a bit of > practivce under my belt, I am wondering which rods to use for stick > welding in DC mode on the welder and how much amperage is best for the > steel hull of a Swain. > > I am told that because i have the option, that i should be welding DC > with elctrode positive (DCEP). I do also have the choice of AC or DC, > electrode negative (DCEN) > > Amperage and rods please? > > Carl McIntosh | 7681|7681|2005-04-23 17:14:28|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Paternmaking|A thought came to me that it might be posible to build half frames for a hull of a hard chin boat out of plywood putting in the chins where there would be seams and the gunels. Releaving the frames where the suface would be folded and then useing say 1/8" masonite to bend on frames to create a patern. the sheets could be atached to the framesalong the bow and stern and where welds are and straped down to bend then atached to each other. When removed from the frames there would be a full sized pattern with out having to figure out how to use all the programs. I can think of some drawbacks but it might work. Any thoughts? Jon| 7682|7682|2005-04-23 17:27:38|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Drafting table|Wanted a bigger drafting table so I went to Home Depo and got a 3/4" 4X8 sheet of the Chipboard with the white laminated face and a sheet of the smoth plastic used for shower walls also 4X8 (To give compas s a place to stick) sprayed the chip board and the texured side of the plastic with 3M 77 spray. I then put thin strips of wood between the faces to be glued so I could line up sheets as you only get one shot at it. Pulled the sticks out a little at a time and pressed togather. Cut to size added a 1X2 at bottem edge to catch tools and pencels and lightly sanded over the edges. A good clean sheetrockers T-squar and cool. Note keep factory edge for top and side you use T-squar on. now have a 4X6 drafting table top for $60. Jon| 7683|7681|2005-04-24 03:53:55|Gerd|Re: Paternmaking|Jon, that sounds like a lot of material and work to me, and actually you would need to do all the alignement like for a real hull, do that on some sort of jig and so on... It would be much easier to work that out in CAD and then do some modelling with the resulting pattern at a large scale to see if you are happy with the result. Do you have a hard-chine plan to start out with? Check out my website, there is a long, detailed description on how I did the CAD work for my YAGO. There are different approaches, but this one worked for me and it's really quite simple. If you need any help, let me know. Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7684|22|2005-04-24 13:07:39|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /sternwheeler Uploaded by : tinkerbell98683 Description : Hulls file for sternwheeler hull You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/sternwheeler To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, tinkerbell98683 | 7685|7681|2005-04-24 13:21:40|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Paternmaking|Have looked at and printed out a lot of your sight for referance and downloaded a hulls file under sternwheeler in files of shape looking at in hard chin form. Was looking at folding the bow and the sterns sides and bottom, overhanging the deck in and out with a lip on the outside for rub rail and a "T" on iner edge of deck to make it ridged and alow for a wood supperstructure. with strait center the patterns would only have to be made for each end and the shape could be lingthened or shortened. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Jon, that sounds like a lot of material and work to me, and actually > you would need to do all the alignement like for a real hull, do that > on some sort of jig and so on... > It would be much easier to work that out in CAD and then do some > modelling with the resulting pattern at a large scale to see if you > are happy with the result. Do you have a hard-chine plan to start out > with? > Check out my website, there is a long, detailed description on how I > did the CAD work for my YAGO. There are different approaches, but this > one worked for me and it's really quite simple. If you need any help, > let me know. > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 7686|22|2005-04-24 15:59:05|MJF107UK|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Hi guys Just down loaded this file,Hulls wont open it as its in text? So how do I alter it to hulls format? TIA Michael origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /sternwheeler Uploaded by : tinkerbell98683 Description : Hulls file for sternwheeler hull You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/sternwheeler To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, tinkerbell98683 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7687|22|2005-04-24 19:42:50|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|I changed the file from the file section when opened it will look almost the same but if you down load it to your documents and then move it to where all the hull files are stored on you computer when you open hulls and click file and open it will be on the list as sternwheeler1. It is a work in progress. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK wrote: > Hi guys > > Just down loaded this file,Hulls wont open it as its in text? So how do I alter it to hulls format? > > TIA Michael | 7688|7678|2005-04-24 22:01:24|jericoera|Re: which rods? which settings DC welding a Swain|Thanks much! I will give it a whirl. Still need to get cutting torches or cheap plasma cutter though I did see a neat trick. A guy down the road was cutting 1/2 SS with a zip cutting wheel on his small grinder. He said you just wait until the wheel wears down nice and small if you want to cut tight radius curves etc. The cuts were clean and in my opinion looked pretty respectable. Carl McIntosh shakeena@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > > Carl > I use 1/8th 6011 at 90 amps for uphand, overhead and light stuff. For > DC, 6010 would be better, but no good for AC. For big hrizontal welds > I use 1/8th 7024 at 225 amps AC. They don't like DC. For chines, 5/32 > 6011s at 125 amps ac or 6010's at the same amperages DC works well. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > wrote: > > > > I just popped a new hydro pole in the ground today and will have my > > shop set up for welding by the end of the month. Once I get a bit of > > practivce under my belt, I am wondering which rods to use for stick > > welding in DC mode on the welder and how much amperage is best for > the > > steel hull of a Swain. > > > > I am told that because i have the option, that i should be welding > DC > > with elctrode positive (DCEP). I do also have the choice of AC or > DC, > > electrode negative (DCEN) > > > > Amperage and rods please? > > > > Carl McIntosh | 7689|7689|2005-04-24 23:26:07|khooper_fboats|Welders/Amperage|I've read there is a rule of thumb wrt stick welders in steel boatbuilding, i.e. if you get a welder less than 200 amps you are going to regret it. Does this hold true with wire welders as well? What I mean is, would you expect a 200 amp wirefeed to weld the same material at about the same amperage as a stick? Or can you get away with somewhat less with the wire? --Hoop| 7690|7689|2005-04-25 01:25:05|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Welders/Amperage|Stick welding the amps will depend somewhat on the size of rod you are useing and type each has a range it needs to be used in. The low end of the range will give buildup the high end penetration. to high and the casing will break down on some rods. With wire it is amps wire size wire speed and the thickness you are welding. The problem with small wire machines is power consistency and feed consistency (a biggy) and duty cycle(% of time on it can weld) this is where a good machines win out and last longer. Before buying a used one check it out feed rollers and gears do wear out. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I've read there is a rule of thumb wrt stick welders in steel > boatbuilding, i.e. if you get a welder less than 200 amps you are > going to regret it. > > Does this hold true with wire welders as well? What I mean is, would > you expect a 200 amp wirefeed to weld the same material at about the > same amperage as a stick? Or can you get away with somewhat less with > the wire? > > --Hoop | 7691|7689|2005-04-25 08:08:04|Carl Volkwein|Re: Welders/Amperage|You might never need the full 200 amps, as the steel you'd be welding is fairly thin. On the other hand, the duty cycle of some small welders is such that you might have to wait while your welder cools down before welding the next weld. I think the smallest welder Lincoln makes in stick is 225 amps, so..... khooper_fboats wrote: I've read there is a rule of thumb wrt stick welders in steel boatbuilding, i.e. if you get a welder less than 200 amps you are going to regret it. Does this hold true with wire welders as well? What I mean is, would you expect a 200 amp wirefeed to weld the same material at about the same amperage as a stick? Or can you get away with somewhat less with the wire? --Hoop To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7692|7678|2005-04-25 09:35:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: which rods? which settings DC welding a Swain|Carl, I have an 180A DC inverter welder, which is light and therefore easy to carry about inside and outside the boat and to hang up out of the way. It has very fine control and does excellent stainless welds and burns up to 5/32 (4mm) rods no problem, long enough to cause distortion before it cuts out. The only problem is that the open circuit voltage is too low to run 6010 rods so I use 6013 rods, which are very good but do not, so I understand, cut through slag like the 6010 or 6011 rods. This caused me much grief trying to use 6010 before I found out about the lack of open circuit voltage. As your welder is an AC/DC unit the open circuit voltage is probably high enough, but it is worth checking the value and the requirements of the rods you intend using. It will say on the box of rods, which setting DCEP or DCEN to use, although from memory some rods can do both including AC. One DC setting gives a hotter rod and cooler workpiece than the other, but I cannot remember which. Regards, Ted| 7693|22|2005-04-25 16:33:52|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Teak deck on steel boat /Seabird1978.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : no steel under teak but ply You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Teak%20deck%20on%20steel%20boat%20/Seabird1978.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7694|22|2005-04-25 16:34:58|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Teak deck on steel boat /Seabird1978b.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : fine finish assures high resale value You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Teak%20deck%20on%20steel%20boat%20/Seabird1978b.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7695|22|2005-04-25 16:36:12|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Teak deck on steel boat /TitiSS51.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : steel or GRP the look and maintenance is similar You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Teak%20deck%20on%20steel%20boat%20/TitiSS51.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7696|7689|2005-04-25 21:18:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welders/Amperage|Stick Welders are constant current machines. The open circuit voltage is high, maybe 70 volts but once the arc is established the current stays quite constant. If you stick the rod to the work the current only climbs a little. Wire feed welders are constant voltage machines. When you pull the trigger the motor starts feeding the wire at a constant rate. When the wire strikes the metal it creates a short circuit. The current shoots way up until the wire burns off. As the wire burns back it draws an arc. The resistance of the arc increases as the arc gets longer. At some point the burn off rate of the wire equals the current and voltage, so the arc length remains constant. If you pull the torch back the resistance of the arc increases, the burn rate decreases and the wire stick out increases until the arc is again back at the stable distance. Conversely, pushing the torch closer shortens the arc, increases the current and the burn rate so the wire burns back until the arc is again the same length. For Mig welding the ability of the power supply to supply a very high current with only a little voltage droop when you first pull the trigger, makes a very big difference in the weld quality at the start. If the machine can't supply the current then the wire stubs the work and bounces. Since there isn't enough heat you often get a cold joint at the start. So having a large enough machine is more important than with a stick welder. The good Mig welders also have inductance controls on them. Inductance is used to limit how the current goes when you first start and it also controls the rapid cycling of the current and smoothes out the weld. You get a lot less spatter when the inductance is properly adjusted. Steel welding with Mig is mostly done using short arc. Short arc is when the wire rapidly shorts against the weld puddle and burns back rapidly. The sound is like frying eggs. Look at the end of the welding wire after it has been used. If the wire has a little round ball on the end it was shot arc welding. If you want to Mig weld aluminum you should operate in the spray arc mode for the best welds. Spray arc on aluminum sounds completely different. It sounds like a spray gun spraying on paint. When you are spray arc welding there is almost no spatter at all. Nearly all the wire goes into the weld. Look at the end of the wire and you'll see a sharp point, that's the indication you really were spray arc welding. The weld has wide smooth ripples, not closely spaced sharp edged ones. The weld will be almost shiny and quite smoke free. It really is a thing of beauty. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Welders/Amperage > > > > I've read there is a rule of thumb wrt stick welders in steel > boatbuilding, i.e. if you get a welder less than 200 amps you are > going to regret it. > > Does this hold true with wire welders as well? What I mean is, would > you expect a 200 amp wirefeed to weld the same material at about the > same amperage as a stick? Or can you get away with somewhat less with > the wire? > > --Hoop > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7697|7637|2005-04-25 22:21:43|seeratlas|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|I also have a hobby about restoring old 4x4's. the real pro's i ask questions of always recommend POR for dealing with serious body rust on the cars. If it works on that, should work on anything. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > > > > > Ted's idea to pump the fuel round through a filter is good > > but it still might not pick up all the water in > > the bottom of the tank as the well or bottom of the tank will > > always be at an angle due to the motion of the hull. > > On the subject of re-circulating diesel: half-full tanks > can froth in a bad blow despite the baffles, so if you're > going to re-circulate aeriated fuel, the use of a permanently > full 'feeder tank' fitted low down (with a vent pipe led up > high) is highly recommended. > > > My heating oil tank was only painted on the outside, it rusted > > through at the inside corner where it had been welded ,this > > was due to water in the bottom which could not be drained > > completely > > I've lost 2 the same way - rusted through at the bottom from > water in the oil - dunno where it gets the oxygen from (?) as > there's always oil above the water .... > > The POR15 stuff Michael mentioned sounds good (perhaps too > good ? cynic that I am) and claims to be suitable for > inside all fuel tanks and will even seal small leaks. > I'll be trying out a sample 'directly to rust' over the > summer (but only a rudder blade at this stage) and will > keep you posted. > > Colin | 7698|7637|2005-04-25 22:30:11|seeratlas|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)frothing/header|Hmmm, I've always had em put header "day tanks" in my boats, that were up high. Highly baffled and kept full by the fuel return line , and main fuel input line from a set of dual sight-glass filters (overflow goes back down into the main tank) Again that 'gravity thing' I was talking about. I set em up to draw from a low corner of the main tanks, but not the lowest corner :) that's reserved for the sump tap. Once you've flown any sailboat off the crests of some pretty good sized waves, you'll insist on fully baffled tanks. Colin is right tho, there are some conditions where anything with room to slosh is going to get foamed, thus the small "tight" and never less than full day tank. In the old days, ( last time i was paying attention anyways, the ocean speed boat racers were using captive bladders that would collapse inside the tanks as the fuel was depleted. dunno if that's still the practice or not. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > > > > > Ted's idea to pump the fuel round through a filter is good > > but it still might not pick up all the water in > > the bottom of the tank as the well or bottom of the tank will > > always be at an angle due to the motion of the hull. > > On the subject of re-circulating diesel: half-full tanks > can froth in a bad blow despite the baffles, so if you're > going to re-circulate aeriated fuel, the use of a permanently > full 'feeder tank' fitted low down (with a vent pipe led up > high) is highly recommended. > > > My heating oil tank was only painted on the outside, it rusted > > through at the inside corner where it had been welded ,this > > was due to water in the bottom which could not be drained > > completely > > I've lost 2 the same way - rusted through at the bottom from > water in the oil - dunno where it gets the oxygen from (?) as > there's always oil above the water .... > > The POR15 stuff Michael mentioned sounds good (perhaps too > good ? cynic that I am) and claims to be suitable for > inside all fuel tanks and will even seal small leaks. > I'll be trying out a sample 'directly to rust' over the > summer (but only a rudder blade at this stage) and will > keep you posted. > > Colin | 7699|7689|2005-04-25 23:00:23|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Welders/Amperage|Many years ago working in a steel fab shop building wood stoves they used spray arc to make the welds look good the problem was little penatration. It would lay down a weld when painted looked better thenCalking that was fingered but you could bust the weld with a small hammer. I didn't work with any aluminum except to TIG weld but having done that I think spray may work better due to its properties. Jon If you want to Mig weld aluminum you should operate in the spray > arc mode for the best welds. Spray arc on aluminum sounds completely > different. It sounds like a spray gun spraying on paint. When you are > spray arc welding there is almost no spatter at all. Nearly all the wire > goes into the weld. Look at the end of the wire and you'll see a sharp > point, that's the indication you really were spray arc welding. The weld > has wide smooth ripples, not closely spaced sharp edged ones. The weld will > be almost shiny and quite smoke free. It really is a thing of beauty. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "khooper_fboats" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Welders/Amperage > > > > > > > > > > I've read there is a rule of thumb wrt stick welders in steel > > boatbuilding, i.e. if you get a welder less than 200 amps you are > > going to regret it. > > > > Does this hold true with wire welders as well? What I mean is, would > > you expect a 200 amp wirefeed to weld the same material at about the > > same amperage as a stick? Or can you get away with somewhat less with > > the wire? > > > > --Hoop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7700|7700|2005-04-26 00:12:46|Marcel Demers|Skeg liquid quantity|The quantity of liquid that fits in the skeg of my 36 foot fin keel hull is 62 liters.| 7701|7637|2005-04-26 06:11:39|sae140|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I also have a hobby about restoring old 4x4's. the real pro's i ask > questions of always recommend POR for dealing with serious body rust > on the cars. If it works on that, should work on anything. > seer I've heard nothing but good reports about the POR15 system, but it's gonna take a leap of faith to apply a space-age paint direct to a rusty surface for continuous seawater immersion. The POR guys even make a goop that can reputedly be used to repair cracks or holes in exhaust manifolds (with all that heat expansion and contraction !) Strewth - that must be some snake oil ! Btw, a 'day tank' continuously kept full sounds like an even better solution to the frothing problem. Colin| 7702|7637|2005-04-26 09:43:10|fmichael graham|Re: fuel tank (to paint or not to paint)|Long-time, no chat fellows. Hope all is well. I have been immersed in work and a new hobby; dumping "oodles" of money into E-Bay to collect extra parts & pieces for two vintage rust buckets, namely, a '58 and a '59 Chevrolet pick-up. When I brought the '59 Chev home, I sprayed all heavily rusted areas with a rust inhibitor from Por15. fascinating to see a rusted area return to hard solid metal. I just hope that when it comes time to work the metal, I find no surprises with this product. I peened an area that I had sprayed and was amazed to find that the surface metal did not flake or chip, as I expected it would. I would like to do a Brinell (hardness) test on a sample to see to what degree the properties have been altered. Could this be the solution to coating the inner hulls? Expensive? Yes, but if it lasted "forever", well worth the investment! Regards to all, Mike sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I also have a hobby about restoring old 4x4's. the real pro's i ask > questions of always recommend POR for dealing with serious body rust > on the cars. If it works on that, should work on anything. > seer I've heard nothing but good reports about the POR15 system, but it's gonna take a leap of faith to apply a space-age paint direct to a rusty surface for continuous seawater immersion. The POR guys even make a goop that can reputedly be used to repair cracks or holes in exhaust manifolds (with all that heat expansion and contraction !) Strewth - that must be some snake oil ! Btw, a 'day tank' continuously kept full sounds like an even better solution to the frothing problem. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7703|7703|2005-04-26 20:27:56|De Clarke|stupid newbie welder question|I am trying to learn to weld at the simplest/cheapest entry level, i.e. a small stick welder. my question is about slag -- that carbonised drek that forms on the surface of the molten metal. I have a little slag hammer and it is quite a chore (boring and noisy) whacking the nasty stuff off the weld line -- not that my weld line looks that good even without the slag, but I'm a newbie like I said! is there any kind of special rod I could get that would minimise the slag factor? or is there no way to get less crud, without stepping up to tank-gas technology? sorry about the idiot-level question. de ............................................................................ :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 7704|7689|2005-04-26 20:50:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welders/Amperage|Jon, When spray arc transfer is used in Mig welding the penetration is MUCH better. The reason is that the current density of the arc is much higher. So I suspect they were doing something different because spray arc welding is seldom used for steel, unless it is very thick. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" To: Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welders/Amperage > > > Many years ago working in a steel fab shop building wood stoves they > used spray arc to make the welds look good the problem was little > penatration. It would lay down a weld when painted looked better > thenCalking that was fingered but you could bust the weld with a > small hammer. I didn't work with any aluminum except to TIG weld but > having done that I think spray may work better due to its properties. > > Jon > > > If you want to Mig weld aluminum you should operate in the spray >> arc mode for the best welds. Spray arc on aluminum sounds > completely >> different. It sounds like a spray gun spraying on paint. When you > are >> spray arc welding there is almost no spatter at all. Nearly all > the wire >> goes into the weld. Look at the end of the wire and you'll see a > sharp >> point, that's the indication you really were spray arc welding. > The weld >> has wide smooth ripples, not closely spaced sharp edged ones. The > weld will >> be almost shiny and quite smoke free. It really is a thing of > beauty. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "khooper_fboats" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 11:26 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Welders/Amperage >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > I've read there is a rule of thumb wrt stick welders in steel >> > boatbuilding, i.e. if you get a welder less than 200 amps you are >> > going to regret it. >> > >> > Does this hold true with wire welders as well? What I mean is, > would >> > you expect a 200 amp wirefeed to weld the same material at about > the >> > same amperage as a stick? Or can you get away with somewhat less > with >> > the wire? >> > >> > --Hoop >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7705|7703|2005-04-26 21:01:04|Gary H. Lucas|Re: stupid newbie welder question|In the flat position 7014 AC or DC(often called drag rod) produces a thick slag covering that is fairly easy to remove. 7018 DC only but all positions produces a very hard slag covering that often peels off on it's own when you make a good weld on relatively open joints. If the slag doesn't come off easy you can be pretty sure the weld is not that good. In a V groove though it can be very hard to deslag. 6010 DC only and all positions is frequently used by pipe welders as a root pass for 7018. It has a highly deoxidizing flux so it works well on dirty or rusty metals. The slag is very porous so it is easy to remove with end of a welding rod and a little brushing. They usually cap it with 7018 because it is easier to get air tight welds than with 6010. 6011 AC or DC and all positions is similar to 6010. It is very popular with greenhouse builders for welding thin wall hot water heating pipe, often thousands of welds. Hope this helps, Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "De Clarke" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] stupid newbie welder question > > > I am trying to learn to weld at the simplest/cheapest entry > level, i.e. a small stick welder. my question is about slag -- > that carbonised drek that forms on the surface of the molten > metal. > > I have a little slag hammer and it is quite a chore (boring and > noisy) whacking the nasty stuff off the weld line -- not that > my weld line looks that good even without the slag, but I'm a > newbie like I said! is there any kind of special rod I could > get that would minimise the slag factor? or is there no way to > get less crud, without stepping up to tank-gas technology? > > sorry about the idiot-level question. > > de > > ............................................................................ > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, > UCSC: > :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid > : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 > E76E: > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7706|7703|2005-04-26 21:08:11|fmichael graham|Re: stupid newbie welder question|De: LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever heard from a welder. You didn't state which rod you were using, so I'll assume 6010/11. There is no substitute for practice, however, if you use a 7018, you'll find that, at optimum current & travel speed, the slag will lift off easily, even peel off on it's own. The value of practicing with 6010/11 is that it has different applications/properties and takes time to learn to manipulate properly. also, you can vertical down-hand weld on lighter gauge material. 7018 is a contact rod, which means that you can drag it along the steel. However, you may find 7018 a bit harder to restart due to the thicker flux coating. Keep at it, a week from now, you'll have this problem "sussed" & be asking an entirely different set of questions. I think the "profs" out there will agree with me when I say that the "trick" to becoming a proficient welder is practice & patience, there is no shortcut. Every one of us went through what you are/will. By the way, where are you located? Regards, Mike De Clarke wrote: I am trying to learn to weld at the simplest/cheapest entry level, i.e. a small stick welder. my question is about slag -- that carbonised drek that forms on the surface of the molten metal. I have a little slag hammer and it is quite a chore (boring and noisy) whacking the nasty stuff off the weld line -- not that my weld line looks that good even without the slag, but I'm a newbie like I said! is there any kind of special rod I could get that would minimise the slag factor? or is there no way to get less crud, without stepping up to tank-gas technology? sorry about the idiot-level question. de ............................................................................ :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7707|7299|2005-04-27 00:33:06|Brent Geery|Re: A very slick DIY foam system for your boat|On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:42:54 -0800, Alex Christie wrote: > On 24-Mar-05, at 8:35 PM, jericoera wrote: > > > OK , I did a bit of research on the subject of foam. I haven't > > foound anything local for me yet but i would encourage anyone > > thinking of doing it themselves to check out www.fomofoam.com > > > > This outfit looks like they have a slick system and sound like they > > are well aware of your needs being that they also specialize in > > insulating metal buildings. > > > > Their foam claims to have zero VOCS which alone is a big selling > > plus I think. Obviously you don't want to be plastering on cancer > > causing agents into your breathing space. This outfit at least > > promotes its product as being safe and is willing to provide data > > why and how. > > > > Hope this is a good link for someone. > > > > Carl > > I have reviewed that foam site http://www.fomofoam.com and it certainly > looks like it would work. The videos show it capable of jetting the > two-part foam onto a steel surface (workshop), so I don't see why it > wouldn't work on a boat. It would take a few cans, but it looks like > you could get a high enough build of foam. Probably nothing beats the > professional job, but this sure could come in a close second. The only > way to really know is to try it, of course, or buy a really small kit > and try it out on the boat. It is two-part, so likely very sticky, and > will probably stick to steel just fine. If it just didn't build high > enough, it could still be covered over with the professional job later. > If it worked fine, however, maybe we've got an answer to the problem > of getting the job done economically. > > I also like the fact that you do it yourself. Only the boat-owner > really knows how they want the job done, and this system would give you > the chance to be thorough in the application process. > > Alex You can get the small (105 board feet) kit cheaper from Granger at http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611771252&ccitem= It's $222 vs $250 that fomofoam.com is asking. Wish they carried the larger sizes. There also seem to be another foam kit manufacture at http://www.tigerfoam.com/ No prices listed, so if someone is interested, let us know what prices and size kits they offer. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 7708|7323|2005-04-27 01:48:03|Brent Geery|Re: Spray foam|On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:59:12 -0000, "audeojude" wrote: > "Russyl" wrote: > > > Ok, I found a DIY spray foam called a "froth pack". It is made by Dow > > Chemicals and it has 2 prepressurized tanks with a spray gun and > > multiple nozzles for different spray widths and what not. > > I find an average price for the 180 cubic foot to be around 325 USD > > but I did find one closeout for 150 USD for the same kit. > > One thing I have noticed is that all the professional spray foam > > sites say to hire a professional to do it but I also find that these > > sites are from people who spray foam for a living. go figure. > > I will post pics when I spray mine on the inside and I will tell > > you if it is worth it to DIY in my opinion. > > > > Wish me luck in about a month or so. > > http://www.dow.com/buildingproducts/frothpak/prod_config.htm > i found the above page on the dow website... looks like a answer maybe > for DIY foaming. Havent found prices yet though. > scott carle http://www.foamkit.com sells froth-paks. Price list: SIZE BOARD FEET PRICE 12 KIT 12 $379.00 case of 12 120 PAK 110 $229.00 180 PAK 200 $336.00 600 PAK 600 $642.00 17 GAL 2,000 $1611.00 60 GAL 6,800 $3989.00 120 GAL 15,000 $7566.00 350 GAL 43,750 Call for quote http://www.ncssupply.com/prodlist.html also sells them and seems to be a little cheaper than the above (on the sizes they carry): SIZE BOARD FEET PRICE 12 Kit 12 $24.99/Each $275.00/Case 180 Pak 200 $294.25 600 Pak 600 $632.37 http://www.foamsalesmarketing.com/who.html In Burbank, California is another possible source of froth packs (and is local for me). There is also yet another manufacture that they call Versi-Foam at http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/ but no prices listed. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 7709|7703|2005-04-27 03:49:42|sae140|Re: stupid newbie welder question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > De: > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever heard from a welder. I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone more experienced if possible. I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is considerable difference between the slag characteristics from different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding a make you like and sticking with it. When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than visually. Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! Colin| 7710|7689|2005-04-27 03:57:02|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Welders/Amperage|It was a comercial Hobart with 50# spools it had bars inside for amprage and a fine tune on the outside as well as feed speed plus a frequency controle that made the arc fan out. When turned up high it made a prity but week weld. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Jon, > When spray arc transfer is used in Mig welding the penetration is MUCH > better. The reason is that the current density of the arc is much higher. > So I suspect they were doing something different because spray arc welding > is seldom used for steel, unless it is very thick. > > Gary H. Lucas | 7711|7711|2005-04-27 07:07:47|john kupris|insurance and marinas|Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of obtaining any insurance at all. If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. This is how I'm beging to feel. Is this all true? uncheers, John| 7712|7323|2005-04-27 12:25:05|jfpacuas|Re: Spray foam|I found a dealer that was selling soon-to-expire froth pack kits at considerable savings. The salesperson said it is difficult to sell the kits when past their expiration date, especially to contractors. (And maybe Dow forbids them to sell expired kits). Anyway, might be worth checking into for those of you at the foaming stage. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:59:12 -0000, "audeojude" wrote: > > > "Russyl" wrote: > > > > > Ok, I found a DIY spray foam called a "froth pack". It is made by Dow > > > Chemicals and it has 2 prepressurized tanks with a spray gun and > > > multiple nozzles for different spray widths and what not. > > > I find an average price for the 180 cubic foot to be around 325 USD > > > but I did find one closeout for 150 USD for the same kit. > > > One thing I have noticed is that all the professional spray foam > > > sites say to hire a professional to do it but I also find that these > > > sites are from people who spray foam for a living. go figure. > > > I will post pics when I spray mine on the inside and I will tell > > > you if it is worth it to DIY in my opinion. > > > > > > Wish me luck in about a month or so. > > > > http://www.dow.com/buildingproducts/frothpak/prod_config.htm > > i found the above page on the dow website... looks like a answer maybe > > for DIY foaming. Havent found prices yet though. > > scott carle > > http://www.foamkit.com sells froth-paks. Price list: > > SIZE BOARD FEET PRICE > 12 KIT 12 $379.00 case of 12 > 120 PAK 110 $229.00 > 180 PAK 200 $336.00 > 600 PAK 600 $642.00 > 17 GAL 2,000 $1611.00 > 60 GAL 6,800 $3989.00 > 120 GAL 15,000 $7566.00 > 350 GAL 43,750 Call for quote > > http://www.ncssupply.com/prodlist.html also sells them and seems to be > a little cheaper than the above (on the sizes they carry): > > SIZE BOARD FEET PRICE > 12 Kit 12 $24.99/Each $275.00/Case > 180 Pak 200 $294.25 > 600 Pak 600 $632.37 > > http://www.foamsalesmarketing.com/who.html In Burbank, California is > another possible source of froth packs (and is local for me). > > There is also yet another manufacture that they call Versi-Foam at > http://www.rhhfoamsystems.com/ but no prices listed. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) | 7713|7711|2005-04-27 13:27:31|Alex Christie|Re: insurance and marinas|Even if insurance were required to be let into a marina, it would be liability insurance, not full replacement insurance, which would be required. This has nothing to do with the boat's hull material, as it has nothing to do with replacing it due to loss, but rather replacing or repairing the boat of the person you might hit. I believe it is usually replacement insurance that people find hard to get for home-built boats, not liability. The two forms of insurance are commonly confused; if someone tells you that you "need insurance to enter a marina", ask them about which type of insurance they are referring to --- chances are it is liability, not replacement, which would be the logical assumption in any case. With a twin keel boat there isn't much need to use a marina, of course, since you can occupy the over-looked mudflats near marinas and avoid the issue of the need for insurance altogether. Stay clear of the gin-palaces and their lawyers and you'll be much better off (steering clear of lawyers or any litigious type of person might be a good general rule of thumb for survival in all environments, in any case!). As for insurance you own boat against loss, just take the money you'd spend on replacement insurance each year and put it in a term-deposit. Besides the inherent insurance against loss by building in steel to begin with, you'll keep the money instead of giving it away to the insurance company. Many steel boat owners self-insure against loss, but do carry liability insurance for loss caused by them against another boat. Generally steel boats win over glass in a battle, of course! Alex On 27-Apr-05, at 4:07 AM, john kupris wrote: > > > Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in > bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. > > Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm > refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. > > Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of > obtaining any insurance at all. > > If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. > > This is how I'm beging to feel. > > Is this all true? > > uncheers, John > > | 7714|7711|2005-04-27 14:00:01|Henri Naths|Re: insurance and marinas|John, That is very funny..(If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you), I just had to comment.. LOL... Welders.. 7014 is not much good for any thing and mainly used on an ac machine.(The little (1) in 7014 denote it as all position) De, I assume you are using an ac machine, If that is the case Aire Liquide make an excellent 7018 rod specially for ac. It is csa/ cwb/ asme/aws approved for use with an ac machine.That may not mean a lot to you now but maybe to an insurance co. it might , (I'm just guessing here).Anyway, it means quality, it surpasses 7014 having the same tensile strength and better ability to weld in all positions. One of the tricks you will learn is joint prep, configure your joint properly and one of the rewards is easy slag removal. 7024 dc is a flat position rod, high deposit. (the (2)=flat..)Get a wire wheel for your grinder... if you have to "cheat" to remove the slag. (no inspector will be watching..LOL..) 6010 dc good penetration, pipeline welders better start with a clean joint and have an "air tight" or x-ray quality root pass, or get their asses kicked because even a 2% failure rate* is hardly acceptable and still has to be repaired.That better be the case building a boat!! Start with clean steel!,.. there is no substitute for good joint prep.!Start right you will end right. 6011 ac, much the same..buy the best quality rods it's cheaper in the long run. I had one instructor who could weld quality with any old rod, any old machine. Won a case of beer once off of one instructor because he could not do a certain common 6010 root pass most pipeline welder do..so the point is experience.. and ask questions..lots of practice too. *failure of a weld, the root crown cannot exceed 1/8 of an inch, no undercut, no porosity, no slag inclusion, no lack of fusion of more that an 1/8 of an inch and only one per joint or as specified by the engineer. Happy welding (that's important too) Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "john kupris" To: Sent: 27 April, 2005 5:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] insurance and marinas > > > Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in > bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. > > Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm > refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. > > Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of > obtaining any insurance at all. > > If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. > > This is how I'm beging to feel. > > Is this all true? > > uncheers, John > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7715|7711|2005-04-28 06:03:53|john kupris|Re: insurance and marinas|Hi Alex, thank you for those encouraging words and saving me from the various plots I'm hatching. I'm in your choir. cheered, John Alex Christie wrote: Even if insurance were required to be let into a marina, it would be liability insurance, not full replacement insurance, which would be required. This has nothing to do with the boat's hull material, as it has nothing to do with replacing it due to loss, but rather replacing or repairing the boat of the person you might hit. I believe it is usually replacement insurance that people find hard to get for home-built boats, not liability. The two forms of insurance are commonly confused; if someone tells you that you "need insurance to enter a marina", ask them about which type of insurance they are referring to --- chances are it is liability, not replacement, which would be the logical assumption in any case. With a twin keel boat there isn't much need to use a marina, of course, since you can occupy the over-looked mudflats near marinas and avoid the issue of the need for insurance altogether. Stay clear of the gin-palaces and their lawyers and you'll be much better off (steering clear of lawyers or any litigious type of person might be a good general rule of thumb for survival in all environments, in any case!). As for insurance you own boat against loss, just take the money you'd spend on replacement insurance each year and put it in a term-deposit. Besides the inherent insurance against loss by building in steel to begin with, you'll keep the money instead of giving it away to the insurance company. Many steel boat owners self-insure against loss, but do carry liability insurance for loss caused by them against another boat. Generally steel boats win over glass in a battle, of course! Alex On 27-Apr-05, at 4:07 AM, john kupris wrote: > > > Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in > bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. > > Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm > refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. > > Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of > obtaining any insurance at all. > > If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. > > This is how I'm beging to feel. > > Is this all true? > > uncheers, John > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7716|7711|2005-04-28 08:53:15|Bill Jaine|Re: insurance and marinas|I just have liability on our boats with State farm and it costs around $4 a month per boat. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john kupris Sent: 28-Apr-05 6:04 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] insurance and marinas Hi Alex, thank you for those encouraging words and saving me from the various plots I'm hatching. I'm in your choir. cheered, John Alex Christie wrote: Even if insurance were required to be let into a marina, it would be liability insurance, not full replacement insurance, which would be required. This has nothing to do with the boat's hull material, as it has nothing to do with replacing it due to loss, but rather replacing or repairing the boat of the person you might hit. I believe it is usually replacement insurance that people find hard to get for home-built boats, not liability. The two forms of insurance are commonly confused; if someone tells you that you "need insurance to enter a marina", ask them about which type of insurance they are referring to --- chances are it is liability, not replacement, which would be the logical assumption in any case. With a twin keel boat there isn't much need to use a marina, of course, since you can occupy the over-looked mudflats near marinas and avoid the issue of the need for insurance altogether. Stay clear of the gin-palaces and their lawyers and you'll be much better off (steering clear of lawyers or any litigious type of person might be a good general rule of thumb for survival in all environments, in any case!). As for insurance you own boat against loss, just take the money you'd spend on replacement insurance each year and put it in a term-deposit. Besides the inherent insurance against loss by building in steel to begin with, you'll keep the money instead of giving it away to the insurance company. Many steel boat owners self-insure against loss, but do carry liability insurance for loss caused by them against another boat. Generally steel boats win over glass in a battle, of course! Alex On 27-Apr-05, at 4:07 AM, john kupris wrote: > > > Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in > bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. > > Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm > refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. > > Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of > obtaining any insurance at all. > > If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. > > This is how I'm beging to feel. > > Is this all true? > > uncheers, John > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/o rigamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/o rigamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7717|7711|2005-04-28 11:04:05|john kupris|Re: insurance and marinas|Hi Bill, thanks for the wonderful news. What kind of boats are they? I'll be insuring a 42' , 9 ton steel sailboat for liability. Could this mean that a survey may not be required? Be still my beating heart... John Bill Jaine wrote: I just have liability on our boats with State farm and it costs around $4 a month per boat. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john kupris Sent: 28-Apr-05 6:04 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] insurance and marinas Hi Alex, thank you for those encouraging words and saving me from the various plots I'm hatching. I'm in your choir. cheered, John Alex Christie wrote: Even if insurance were required to be let into a marina, it would be liability insurance, not full replacement insurance, which would be required. This has nothing to do with the boat's hull material, as it has nothing to do with replacing it due to loss, but rather replacing or repairing the boat of the person you might hit. I believe it is usually replacement insurance that people find hard to get for home-built boats, not liability. The two forms of insurance are commonly confused; if someone tells you that you "need insurance to enter a marina", ask them about which type of insurance they are referring to --- chances are it is liability, not replacement, which would be the logical assumption in any case. With a twin keel boat there isn't much need to use a marina, of course, since you can occupy the over-looked mudflats near marinas and avoid the issue of the need for insurance altogether. Stay clear of the gin-palaces and their lawyers and you'll be much better off (steering clear of lawyers or any litigious type of person might be a good general rule of thumb for survival in all environments, in any case!). As for insurance you own boat against loss, just take the money you'd spend on replacement insurance each year and put it in a term-deposit. Besides the inherent insurance against loss by building in steel to begin with, you'll keep the money instead of giving it away to the insurance company. Many steel boat owners self-insure against loss, but do carry liability insurance for loss caused by them against another boat. Generally steel boats win over glass in a battle, of course! Alex On 27-Apr-05, at 4:07 AM, john kupris wrote: > > > Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in > bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. > > Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm > refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. > > Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of > obtaining any insurance at all. > > If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. > > This is how I'm beging to feel. > > Is this all true? > > uncheers, John > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/o rigamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/o rigamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7718|7711|2005-04-28 14:22:27|Paul J. Thompson|Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|Hi, Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's book? It is not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing edges together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the halves? Do you put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one end so as to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you are ready to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. Paul Thompson www.sailingwithoutasound.com PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' Tahitianna type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment to make. Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. Wherever there was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right through the deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact and was still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to remove. All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, incluedeing hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a steel for greater peace of mind. > > | 7719|7711|2005-04-29 05:24:09|Puck III|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no corrosion where there is no steel :-) Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden beams if you want to . Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , but some folks like the look , I would not recommend epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in fact its a steel hull :-) Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden masts they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) Most people that have used it once , never would even think of using another material . Just some thoughts Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's book? It is > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing edges > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the halves? Do you > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one end so as > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you are ready > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > Paul Thompson > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' Tahitianna > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment to make. > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. Wherever there > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right through the > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact and was > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to remove. > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, incluedeing > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a steel for greater > peace of mind. > > > > > > | 7720|7711|2005-04-29 09:57:31|MJF107UK|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|Hi Ben I'm interested in saving weight with steel construction. My idea would to use the steel deck beams as could for in the design, with a wooden battens through bolted to take the ply decks. Have you had any problems making the joint between the deck and hull? Replies from an earlier posting mentioned leaks leading to rot. I reckon the hull of a 30' boat would expand or contract about a 1/4" over it's length with a temperature rise or fall of 40 degrees, this doesn't seem an excessive amount for modern caulking to take up, so what have you found in practice. Michael (MJF107UK) Puck III wrote: Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no corrosion where there is no steel :-) Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden beams if you want to . Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , but some folks like the look , I would not recommend epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in fact its a steel hull :-) Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden masts they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) Most people that have used it once , never would even think of using another material . Just some thoughts Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's book? It is > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing edges > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the halves? Do you > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one end so as > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you are ready > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > Paul Thompson > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' Tahitianna > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment to make. > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. Wherever there > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right through the > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact and was > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to remove. > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, incluedeing > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a steel for greater > peace of mind. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7721|7711|2005-04-29 17:42:07|brentswain38|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|All wooden decks leak eventually. Steel ones don't . Nothing is better for attaching cleats and other deck fittings that welding them down. Welding rod is the best, most permanent bedding compound there is.There is no way to get any where near the strngth in deck fittings on a non steel deck that welding them down acheives.A wooden deck( dead vegitation) on a metal hull is extreme foolishness, (style over substance.) The owner of the fist 36 footer I did insisted on a wooden deckhouse. It took him several minths to put it together, a job I do in steel in about ten hours.It leaked a lot. I've seen some local boats built of wood by some of the best craftsmen on the coast. Their decks all leaked eventually. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no > corrosion where there is no steel :-) > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden > beams if you want to . > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in > fact its a steel hull :-) > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden masts > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) > Most people that have used it once , never would even > think of using another material . > Just some thoughts > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's > book? It is > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing > edges > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the > halves? Do you > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one > end so as > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you > are ready > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > > > Paul Thompson > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' > Tahitianna > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment > to make. > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. > Wherever there > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right > through the > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact > and was > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to > remove. > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, > incluedeing > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a > steel for greater > > peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > | 7722|7711|2005-04-29 17:51:14|brentswain38|Re: insurance and marinas|In 1975 I lost my first boat , a ferro cement 36 footer on a Fijian coral reef after a year on the BC coast and two years cruising the South Pacific. Replacing her cost a fraction of what it would cost to insure her for the cruising I did and they would have insisted that I put up with two other crew members at all times while I was cruising in her, drastically reducing the enjoymmnet of cruising. My current boat is 21 years old, but I've never paid to tie her to a dock yet.I can cruise full time for the cost of moorage in may marinas.What's a boat for , after all? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Even if insurance were required to be let into a marina, it would be > liability insurance, not full replacement insurance, which would be > required. This has nothing to do with the boat's hull material, as it > has nothing to do with replacing it due to loss, but rather replacing > or repairing the boat of the person you might hit. I believe it is > usually replacement insurance that people find hard to get for > home-built boats, not liability. The two forms of insurance are > commonly confused; if someone tells you that you "need insurance to > enter a marina", ask them about which type of insurance they are > referring to --- chances are it is liability, not replacement, which > would be the logical assumption in any case. > > With a twin keel boat there isn't much need to use a marina, of course, > since you can occupy the over-looked mudflats near marinas and avoid > the issue of the need for insurance altogether. Stay clear of the > gin-palaces and their lawyers and you'll be much better off (steering > clear of lawyers or any litigious type of person might be a good > general rule of thumb for survival in all environments, in any case!). > > As for insurance you own boat against loss, just take the money you'd > spend on replacement insurance each year and put it in a term- deposit. > Besides the inherent insurance against loss by building in steel to > begin with, you'll keep the money instead of giving it away to the > insurance company. Many steel boat owners self-insure against loss, > but do carry liability insurance for loss caused by them against > another boat. Generally steel boats win over glass in a battle, of > course! > > Alex > > > > On 27-Apr-05, at 4:07 AM, john kupris wrote: > > > > > > > Having only owned plastic trailer sailers, I am becoming aware, in > > bits and pieces of problems with larger steel boats. > > > > Is it true that marinas will not permit uninsured boats in ? I'm > > refering to what I heard about on the great lakes. > > > > Sailing magazines are running articles about the difficulty of > > obtaining any insurance at all. > > > > If you are in a poker game and cannot spot the patsy, it's you. > > > > This is how I'm beging to feel. > > > > Is this all true? > > > > uncheers, John > > > > | 7723|7711|2005-04-29 18:00:05|brentswain38|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|I used to drive the pipe between the two halves . That absolutely guaranteed a totally symetrical rudder. Lately I've gone back to bending the two halves around the centre pipe with C clamps and vise grips ,as pounding the pipe in made a crease down the centre of the rudder. Using this method , you have to use a very critical eye to make sure it is twist free and symetrical. Clamping the two halves together and grinding the edges to make them identical , before forming the rudder helps a lot. If initially, you use half inch long tacks ever 6 inches, you can pound on these tacks to move either side one way or another until the rudder is symetrical, before fully welding it. You should always move your welding from side to side ,four inches at a time, when doing the full welding ,to avoid pulling it out of shape with weld shrinkage. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's book? It is > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing edges > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the halves? Do you > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one end so as > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you are ready > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > Paul Thompson > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' Tahitianna > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment to make. > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. Wherever there > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right through the > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact and was > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to remove. > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, incluedeing > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a steel for greater > peace of mind. > > > > > > | 7724|7703|2005-04-29 18:06:55|brentswain38|Re: stupid newbie welder question|7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel one and thus much more effective. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > wrote: > > De: > > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever > heard from a welder. > > I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > more experienced if possible. > I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding > a make you like and sticking with it. > When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > > Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > visually. > Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > > Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > > Colin | 7725|7681|2005-04-29 18:09:20|brentswain38|Re: Paternmaking|It sounds like a complete waste of time and a giant step backward from the conveninece of origami methods. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > A thought came to me that it might be posible to build half frames for > a hull of a hard chin boat out of plywood putting in the chins where > there would be seams and the gunels. Releaving the frames where the > suface would be folded and then useing say 1/8" masonite to bend on > frames to create a patern. the sheets could be atached to the > framesalong the bow and stern and where welds are and straped down to > bend then atached to each other. When removed from the frames there > would be a full sized pattern with out having to figure out how to use > all the programs. I can think of some drawbacks but it might work. Any > thoughts? > > Jon | 7726|7711|2005-04-29 18:11:13|Alex Christie|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|I can't remember now Brent, did we put a small piece of pipe sideways inside the rudder to convince the plate to take a nice curve? I know we did it with the skeg (2 pieces of pipe). I should add, group, that the rudder went together so fast in Brent's hands that I didn't get it all on film (I was working on something else). That is the origami way -- some things that take ages to craft in other materials come together in a flash when working in the medium of steel with these techniques. Alex On 29-Apr-05, at 3:00 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > I used to drive the pipe between the two halves . That absolutely > guaranteed a totally symetrical rudder. Lately I've gone back to > bending the two halves around the centre pipe with C clamps and vise > grips ,as pounding the pipe in made a crease down the centre of the > rudder. Using this method , you have to use a very critical eye to > make sure it is twist free and symetrical. Clamping the two halves > together and grinding the edges to make them identical , before > forming the rudder helps a lot. If initially, you use half inch long > tacks ever 6 inches, you can pound on these tacks to move either side > one way or another until the rudder is symetrical, before fully > welding it. > You should always move your welding from side to side ,four inches > at a time, when doing the full welding ,to avoid pulling it out of > shape with weld shrinkage. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: | 7727|7703|2005-04-29 19:09:26|fmichael graham|Re: stupid newbie welder question|Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good indicator for correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with 7018, is that the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. 6010/11, due to their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, to be easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced welders tend to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting in a bead that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between crests & troughs. As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison to 7018, brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, resulting in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld-affected zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch welding can alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns using a rod capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or 6011, I'll admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though I have welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one of Brent's boats, and he has built many. Mike R brentswain38 wrote: 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel one and thus much more effective. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > wrote: > > De: > > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever > heard from a welder. > > I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > more experienced if possible. > I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding > a make you like and sticking with it. > When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > > Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > visually. > Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > > Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > > Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7728|7711|2005-04-29 20:38:29|Puck III|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|Hi Michael , why not use laminated wooden beams so you save labor time and have a nice finish , cause you can paint the deck ( eventualy with Bruynzeel teal on ply ) on the working table before installing the deck on the beams . How is it done in practice ? Just have a look at the " Ben's stuff" Folder in the Files of :http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ in OBOELO ( working in argot :-) you see me do the painting in the pic in the topleft corner . Eolisopeninterior shows you an interior finish with little maintenance , you could varnish the ply and make the doors in full wood , I make a full wooden door in about 5 minutes ( painting or varnish time excluded )just ask and I'l post a pic and or drawing . Hoping you like the craftmanship :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK wrote: > Hi Ben > > I'm interested in saving weight with steel construction. My idea would to use the steel deck beams as could for in the design, with a wooden battens through bolted to take the ply decks. Have you had any problems making the joint between the deck and hull? Replies from an earlier posting mentioned leaks leading to rot. I reckon the hull of a 30' boat would expand or contract about a 1/4" over it's length with a temperature rise or fall of 40 degrees, this doesn't seem an excessive amount for modern caulking to take up, so what have you found in practice. > > Michael (MJF107UK) > > Puck III wrote: > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no > corrosion where there is no steel :-) > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden > beams if you want to . > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in > fact its a steel hull :-) > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden masts > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) > Most people that have used it once , never would even > think of using another material . > Just some thoughts > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's > book? It is > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing > edges > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the > halves? Do you > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one > end so as > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you > are ready > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > > > Paul Thompson > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' > Tahitianna > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment > to make. > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. > Wherever there > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right > through the > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact > and was > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to > remove. > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, > incluedeing > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a > steel for greater > > peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7729|7703|2005-04-29 21:11:38|Henri Naths|Re: stupid newbie welder question|Mike wrote 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes distortion ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain structure is likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, the flux slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. H ----- Original Message ----- From: "fmichael graham" To: Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good indicator for > correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with 7018, is that > the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. 6010/11, due to > their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, to be > easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced welders tend > to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting in a bead > that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between crests & > troughs. > > As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison to 7018, > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, resulting > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld-affected > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch welding can > alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns using a rod > capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or 6011, I'll > admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though I have > welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one of Brent's > boats, and he has built many. > Mike > > > R > brentswain38 wrote: > 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, > unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is > probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood > handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel > one and thus much more effective. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham >> wrote: >> > De: >> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever >> heard from a welder. >> >> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get >> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not >> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when >> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any >> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might >> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone >> more experienced if possible. >> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is >> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from >> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding >> a make you like and sticking with it. >> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts >> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. >> >> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining >> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The >> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim >> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than >> visually. >> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. >> >> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! >> >> Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7730|7711|2005-04-29 21:16:14|Puck III|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|all I can say is that the pics posted in the " Teak deck on steel boat " Folder in Files : http://tinyurl.com/9m359 & http://tinyurl.com/arcvx are pics of Seabird , the 1977 Cruising World Design Competition Winner ( First ) , more than 200 plans sold . There are well build boats that do not have leaking decks , or faulty build fittings , build in any material boats are build with , and there are badly build boats. No material is perfect , no builder is perfect . All one can do is try to go for the best , in design , building & using the product. May be one can assemble a steel pilothouse very quickly, then the finishing off of the bare steel pilothouse shell has to be done :-) , how long will it take to build a nice finished interior into that shell ??? Just wondering ??? Some love to see a well finished boat. Personaly I think its worth the extra effort to go for the best possible , cause a boat is an investment of a lot of labor , better to be assured of the highest resale value. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > All wooden decks leak eventually. Steel ones don't . Nothing is > better for attaching cleats and other deck fittings that welding > them down. Welding rod is the best, most permanent bedding compound > there is.There is no way to get any where near the strngth in deck > fittings on a non steel deck that welding them down acheives.A wooden > deck( dead vegitation) on a metal hull is extreme foolishness, (style > over substance.) > The owner of the fist 36 footer I did insisted on a wooden > deckhouse. It took him several minths to put it together, a job I do > in steel in about ten hours.It leaked a lot. > I've seen some local boats built of wood by some of the best > craftsmen on the coast. Their decks all leaked eventually. > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give > > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no > > corrosion where there is no steel :-) > > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of > > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) > > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " > > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , > > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck > > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden > > beams if you want to . > > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , > > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend > > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . > > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your > > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in > > fact its a steel hull :-) > > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum > > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden masts > > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and > > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) > > Most people that have used it once , never would even > > think of using another material . > > Just some thoughts > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's > > book? It is > > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing > > edges > > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the > > halves? Do you > > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one > > end so as > > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when you > > are ready > > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' > > Tahitianna > > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one comment > > to make. > > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. > > Wherever there > > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right > > through the > > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact > > and was > > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed to > > remove. > > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, > > incluedeing > > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a > > steel for greater > > > peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7731|7711|2005-04-29 21:29:13|Henri Naths|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|I agree Ben, specially if you have to live in it ( we wouldn't have much trouble living in eolisopeninterior11jpg..tres beau!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Puck III" To: Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood > all I can say is that the pics posted in the > " Teak deck on steel boat " Folder in Files : > http://tinyurl.com/9m359 & > http://tinyurl.com/arcvx > are pics of Seabird , the 1977 Cruising World Design > Competition Winner ( First ) , more than 200 plans sold . > There are well build boats that do not have leaking decks , > or faulty build fittings , build in any material boats are build with , > and there are badly build boats. > No material is perfect , no builder is perfect . > All one can do is try to go for the best , > in design , building & using the product. > > May be one can assemble a steel pilothouse very quickly, > then the finishing off of the bare steel pilothouse shell > has to be done :-) , how long will it take to build a nice > finished interior into that shell ??? Just wondering ??? > Some love to see a well finished boat. > Personaly I think its worth the extra effort to go for the > best possible , cause a boat is an investment of a lot > of labor , better to be assured of the highest resale value. > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> All wooden decks leak eventually. Steel ones don't . Nothing is >> better for attaching cleats and other deck fittings that welding >> them down. Welding rod is the best, most permanent bedding > compound >> there is.There is no way to get any where near the strngth in > deck >> fittings on a non steel deck that welding them down acheives.A > wooden >> deck( dead vegitation) on a metal hull is extreme foolishness, > (style >> over substance.) >> The owner of the fist 36 footer I did insisted on a wooden >> deckhouse. It took him several minths to put it together, a job I > do >> in steel in about ten hours.It leaked a lot. >> I've seen some local boats built of wood by some of the best >> craftsmen on the coast. Their decks all leaked eventually. >> Brent >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: >> > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give >> > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no >> > corrosion where there is no steel :-) >> > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of >> > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) >> > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " >> > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , >> > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck >> > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden >> > beams if you want to . >> > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , >> > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend >> > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . >> > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your >> > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in >> > fact its a steel hull :-) >> > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum >> > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden > masts >> > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and >> > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) >> > Most people that have used it once , never would even >> > think of using another material . >> > Just some thoughts >> > Old Ben >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" >> > wrote: >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in > Brent's >> > book? It is >> > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an > trailing >> > edges >> > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the >> > halves? Do you >> > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at > one >> > end so as >> > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when > you >> > are ready >> > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. >> > > >> > > Paul Thompson >> > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com >> > > >> > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' >> > Tahitianna >> > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one > comment >> > to make. >> > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. >> > Wherever there >> > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right >> > through the >> > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be > intact >> > and was >> > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed > to >> > remove. >> > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, >> > incluedeing >> > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a >> > steel for greater >> > > peace of mind. >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7732|7732|2005-04-29 23:32:23|Tim|New Guy on the block.|Hi all, just cruising the Net in search of ideas as I go about trying to get my shit together on building a tahitiana, a steel ketch, from plans that have had for 30 years or more. But I came across your group and was intrigued to say the least. Hope to have some insight and ideas from you folks. Care to post for me would be great. I live in Oceanside, Ca and if you care to stop by for a chat, a few beers or quaff a few and a BBQ, all would be welcome.... Tim| 7733|7703|2005-04-30 01:36:56|Henri Naths|Re: stupid newbie welder question|sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. The "SLAG" slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. Travel and deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > Mike wrote > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, resulting > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld-affected > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes distortion > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain structure is > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, the flux > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > H > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "fmichael graham" > To: > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good indicator for >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with 7018, is >> that >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. 6010/11, due >> to >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, to be >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced welders >> tend >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting in a >> bead >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between crests & >> troughs. >> >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison to 7018, >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, >> resulting >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld-affected >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch welding can >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns using a rod >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or 6011, I'll >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though I have >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one of Brent's >> boats, and he has built many. >> Mike >> >> >> R >> brentswain38 wrote: >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel >> one and thus much more effective. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" >> wrote: >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham >>> wrote: >>> > De: >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever >>> heard from a welder. >>> >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone >>> more experienced if possible. >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding >>> a make you like and sticking with it. >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. >>> >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than >>> visually. >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. >>> >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! >>> >>> Colin >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7734|7732|2005-04-30 12:22:29|fmichael graham|Re: New Guy on the block.|Hi Tim! Boy, are you & Paul Thompson going to have a lot to talk about(Tahitiana steel ketches). If this is the first time that you've come across this group then your really in for a treat. There are members who design steel boats, members who build them, members who dream about building them. Though discussion, on rare occasions, can get a bit heated, there are resources in this group for every aspect of building & equipping steel boats. For instance; there are members who can tell you how to turn whatever your driving into a portable welding machine(lol). Hope you enjoy this group as much as I have. Mike Tim wrote: Hi all, just cruising the Net in search of ideas as I go about trying to get my shit together on building a tahitiana, a steel ketch, from plans that have had for 30 years or more. But I came across your group and was intrigued to say the least. Hope to have some insight and ideas from you folks. Care to post for me would be great. I live in Oceanside, Ca and if you care to stop by for a chat, a few beers or quaff a few and a BBQ, all would be welcome.... Tim To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7735|7732|2005-04-30 13:09:00|Tim|Re: New Guy on the block.|I am sure of that as when I was cruising around Panama, Colombia and Ecuador, I saw an amazing array of tools, ideas, power and mechanicals. Consider that the 80 foot coconut schooner, (How big is the boat skipper...? 80 mil cocos meaning it holds 80,000 coconuts and a 40,000 cocos would be then a 40 footer) in the Gulf of Uraba all like the Buick in line eight cylinder auto engine for power because of the 1> great distances....no 2> The great flow of the Atrato river ...... no, well maybe. 3> Accidents on the roads had reduced the body to nothing but the engine and dyna flow transmission conversion to boat was easy and provided power at next to nothing prices...... Yep that's the reason. One 80 footer I saw being built outside of Acandi Colombia, had no electrical tools being used. Hand tools only. She became known as the 'Antioquenita", and later when I had to leave Panama's lower San Blas chain village because of Gen Torillos, it was as a guest on that ship going to Turbo Colombia. Needless to say my replacement passport, which I still have, was issued in Medellín, Colombia. She sailed beautifully as a gaffrigged schooner by the way, just don't point to close to the wind........ I still haven't figured out how the Ecuadorians in Salinas and Guayacil, generated acetylene by dropping chunks of stuff in a tank and putting the lid back on, waiting a bit and then lighting the cutting torch, but I am sure we did that in this country, but that was before my time. I know, you guys are wondering why I have waited 30 years holding a set of plans, but the time was not right. Now it is and I have access to time, material and anything else needed to do the project......almost. Need your thoughts and ideas, so I don't make any Junior mistakes...... 4 items that I am interested in having some input, 1.there are newer diesel engines out there and would like to see where you guys knowledge base has, 2. Mast and spars will be of aluminum and where is the best source. 3. holding, H2O and diesel tanks should be of which material. 4. a very insightful item cam up in one of your .jpg from the file section, was about the galley being a nightmare as 20° off center and so I would like you thoughts on that as well. My experience is from long ago, and since they were on Alden and Angleman design, the galleys were a dream. But they were larger boats too. I appreciate your time and any that are in my neighborhood....mi casa es su casa..... Tim Ps Why would discussions get heated. or is it just about design and stuff......? ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham Hi Tim! Boy, are you & Paul Thompson going to have a lot to talk about(Tahitiana steel ketches). If this is the first time that you've come across this group then your really in for a treat. There are members who design steel boats, members who build them, members who dream about building them. Though discussion, on rare occasions, can get a bit heated, there are resources in this group for every aspect of building & equipping steel boats. For instance; there are members who can tell you how to turn whatever your driving into a portable welding machine(lol). Hope you enjoy this group as much as I have. Mike Tim wrote: Hi all, just cruising the Net in search of ideas as I go about trying to get my shit together on building a tahitiana, a steel ketch, from plans that have had for 30 years or more. But I came across your group and was intrigued to say the least. Hope to have some insight and ideas from you folks. Care to post for me would be great. I live in Oceanside, Ca and if you care to stop by for a chat, a few beers or quaff a few and a BBQ, all would be welcome.... Tim To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7736|7732|2005-04-30 13:42:21|Paul J. Thompson|Re: New Guy on the block.|Hi Tim, For steel boats, this is one of the best forums. Lots of knowledge on a vast variety of subjects and members both willing and keen to impart information and assist where possible. I have had my Tahiti for nearly 14 years now and have lived on board and sailed for 12 of those 14. Currently I am doing a major overhaul and a rig conversion. Of the popular rigs, the best in my opinion for the Tahitianna is the ketch, gaff or bemudane. I started out with the gaff cutter, very fast but difficult to balance on a reach. Went to a gaff ketch (Bermuda mizzen) which while slower, solved the balance problem . Another plus was that she would heave-to under mizzen alone. I am now converting to the Junk rig. If you want to know more about La Chica, visit my website http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com Feel free to email me direct should you wish. Regards, Paul Thompson Tim wrote: >Hi all, just cruising the Net in search of ideas as I go about trying >to get my shit together on building a tahitiana, a steel ketch, from >plans that have had for 30 years or more. But I came across your >group and was intrigued to say the least. Hope to have some insight >and ideas from you folks. Care to post for me would be great. I live >in Oceanside, Ca and if you care to stop by for a chat, a few beers or >quaff a few and a BBQ, all would be welcome.... Tim > > > > > > | 7737|7737|2005-04-30 13:54:03|Tim|Re: [tahitiana] 30 year old plans|Thanks for the reply, Paul. I also, while not deaf, do have hearing problems. My left ear is a dud due to divers ear and the right has very limited hearing due to trucking and rock and roll, and while I have a newer tiny aide, it is not comfortable as it feels like some one else has their finger in my ear all day. so I like Hanna, am still my usual cantankerous self and if you don't like it, speak up.....! I would be most interested in knowing about why you are extending the keel. Is your keel now a box keel or which, and what kind of ballast did you fill it with. I crewed on the 56 footer the LaVengro in the Southern Caribbean and it was a gaff rigger. This was after sailing on the marconi rigged ketch, the Black dolphin, an angleman. The difference was amazing. The gaff was so heavy considering. In truth, the Gaff rigger was faster, built along the lines of the Mississippi fishing schooners and was not deep hulled. But the angleman, was a superb handler and even slow because of what it was, she could weather storms nicely and rather sweetly at that. It will be my pleasure to converse with you..... One thought is about a Bilge keel version as seen on the origama Yahoo group..... Thoughts... ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul J. Thompson To: tahitiana@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [tahitiana] 30 year old plans Hi Tim, I have had my Tahiti for nearly 14 years now and have lived on board and sailed for 12 of those 14. Currently I am doing a major overhaul and a rig conversion. Of the popular rigs, the best in my opinion for the Tahitianna is the ketch, gaff or bemudane. I started out with the gaff cutter, very fast but difficult to balance on a reach. Went to a gaff ketch (Bermuda mizzen) which while slower, solved the balance problem . Another plus was that she would heave-to under mizzen alone. I am know converting to the Junk rig. If you want to know more about La Chica, visit my website http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com Feel free to email me direct should you wish. Regards, Paul Thompson Tim wrote: >Just joined your group. I am gearing up, I think, to build a >Tahitiana. any comments, thoughts, new ideas, etc.... that anyone >might be interested in making me aware of. has anyone done any >cruising on one that you care to share. Ketch rig the best for me, >but is it the best for the boat......? Has anyone done chines on the >outside as is pictured in the plan brochure? I am in Oceanside >California. Stop by if you can for a beer, a BBQ and a >chat......Thanks for letting me join your group...... > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tahitiana/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: tahitiana-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7738|7703|2005-04-30 17:09:26|jfpacuas|Stupid newbie welder question #2|As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell I am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit this to just rod storage questions. I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The low hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just suggested by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I think I understand the theory of why they store them at temperature, but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage how are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to use excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. The "SLAG" > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. Travel and > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henri Naths" > To: > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > Mike wrote > > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, resulting > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- affected > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > > > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes distortion > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain structure is > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, the flux > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > > H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "fmichael graham" > > To: > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good indicator for > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with 7018, is > >> that > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. 6010/11, due > >> to > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, to be > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced welders > >> tend > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting in a > >> bead > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between crests & > >> troughs. > >> > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison to 7018, > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, > >> resulting > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- affected > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch welding can > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns using a rod > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or 6011, I'll > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though I have > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one of Brent's > >> boats, and he has built many. > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> R > >> brentswain38 wrote: > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel > >> one and thus much more effective. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > >>> wrote: > >>> > De: > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever > >>> heard from a welder. > >>> > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > >>> more experienced if possible. > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > >>> > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > >>> visually. > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > >>> > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > >>> > >>> Colin > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7739|7703|2005-04-30 18:41:22|Tim|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|As the new guy on the block, and one who does not claim to be a welder, forgive me for interjecting here, but the welders are allowed to work from a newly opened box for 4, I believe, hours before the rod must be put in the oven. With an inspector always on site, this is followed to the letter, since their work would not get signed off and would not be accepted. Of course for boats, this might not apply, but some of the buildings we erect, must withstand 8.0 on the rickter scale.I can pick the brains of certified welders for you during the week if you like for a more intelligent answer....... Tim----- Original Message ----- From: jfpacuas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell I am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit this to just rod storage questions. I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The low hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just suggested by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I think I understand the theory of why they store them at temperature, but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage how are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to use excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. The "SLAG" > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. Travel and > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henri Naths" > To: > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > Mike wrote > > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, resulting > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- affected > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > > > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes distortion > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain structure is > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, the flux > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > > H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "fmichael graham" > > To: > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good indicator for > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with 7018, is > >> that > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. 6010/11, due > >> to > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, to be > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced welders > >> tend > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting in a > >> bead > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between crests & > >> troughs. > >> > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison to 7018, > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, > >> resulting > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- affected > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch welding can > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns using a rod > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or 6011, I'll > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though I have > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one of Brent's > >> boats, and he has built many. > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> R > >> brentswain38 wrote: > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel > >> one and thus much more effective. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > >>> wrote: > >>> > De: > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever > >>> heard from a welder. > >>> > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > >>> more experienced if possible. > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > >>> > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > >>> visually. > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7740|7703|2005-04-30 20:40:57|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|7018 rods are also known as Low Hydrogen. Hydrogen in a weld causes the weld to be brittle and 7018 leaves behind less hydrogen so the welds are less likely to crack. The flux coating however absorbs moisture from the air, where it gets hydrogen, effectively spoiling the very feature you want. The most common rod oven I have seen is an old refrigerator with a small space heater in it. Since they are well insulated it takes very little power to keep them quite warm. I used to own a small commercial 6" diameter well insulated rod oven. It kept the rods so hot you had to handle them with your gloves on. They really welded very well though in that state. Very smooth welding and the slag just curls off on it's own. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 5:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell I > am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit this > to just rod storage questions. > > I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper > storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their > products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle > with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The low > hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the > original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just suggested > by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I > think I understand the theory of why they store them at temperature, > but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. > > If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage how > are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old > kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up > enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to use > excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? > > Any direction would be greatly appreciated. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: >> sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. > The "SLAG" >> slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." >> p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. > Travel and >> deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. >> H. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Henri Naths" >> To: >> Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >> >> >> > Mike wrote >> > to 7018, >> > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, > resulting >> > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- > affected >> > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially > when the >> > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> >> > >> > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes > distortion >> > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain > structure is >> > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, > the flux >> > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. >> > H >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "fmichael graham" >> > To: >> > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >> > >> > >> >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good > indicator for >> >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with > 7018, is >> >> that >> >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. > 6010/11, due >> >> to >> >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, > to be >> >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced > welders >> >> tend >> >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting > in a >> >> bead >> >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between > crests & >> >> troughs. >> >> >> >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison > to 7018, >> >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, >> >> resulting >> >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- > affected >> >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially > when the >> >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch > welding can >> >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal >> >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns > using a rod >> >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or > 6011, I'll >> >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though > I have >> >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one > of Brent's >> >> boats, and he has built many. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> R >> >> brentswain38 wrote: >> >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the > ass, >> >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 > is >> >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood >> >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all > steel >> >> one and thus much more effective. >> >> Brent >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham >> >>> wrote: >> >>> > De: >> >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have > ever >> >>> heard from a welder. >> >>> >> >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get >> >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not >> >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when >> >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any >> >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might >> >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone >> >>> more experienced if possible. >> >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is >> >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from >> >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding >> >>> a make you like and sticking with it. >> >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts >> >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. >> >>> >> >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining >> >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The >> >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim >> >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than >> >>> visually. >> >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. >> >>> >> >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! >> >>> >> >>> Colin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7741|7703|2005-04-30 21:25:19|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|good point Gary, Another idea for your old fridge is replace the light bulb with a 100 or 150 watt and take out the shut off switch so the light stays on all the time. 100 + watts will keep things pretty warm. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: 30 April, 2005 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > 7018 rods are also known as Low Hydrogen. Hydrogen in a weld causes the > weld to be brittle and 7018 leaves behind less hydrogen so the welds are > less likely to crack. The flux coating however absorbs moisture from the > air, where it gets hydrogen, effectively spoiling the very feature you > want. > > The most common rod oven I have seen is an old refrigerator with a small > space heater in it. Since they are well insulated it takes very little > power to keep them quite warm. > > I used to own a small commercial 6" diameter well insulated rod oven. It > kept the rods so hot you had to handle them with your gloves on. They > really welded very well though in that state. Very smooth welding and the > slag just curls off on it's own. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jfpacuas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 5:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > >> As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell I >> am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit this >> to just rod storage questions. >> >> I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper >> storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their >> products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle >> with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The low >> hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the >> original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just suggested >> by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I >> think I understand the theory of why they store them at temperature, >> but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. >> >> If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage how >> are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old >> kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up >> enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to use >> excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? >> >> Any direction would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >> wrote: >>> sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. >> The "SLAG" >>> slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." >>> p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. >> Travel and >>> deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. >>> H. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Henri Naths" >>> To: >>> Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >>> >>> >>> > Mike wrote >>> > > to 7018, >>> > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, >> resulting >>> > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- >> affected >>> > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially >> when the >>> > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> >>> > >>> > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes >> distortion >>> > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain >> structure is >>> > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, >> the flux >>> > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. >>> > H >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "fmichael graham" >>> > To: >>> > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM >>> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >>> > >>> > >>> >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good >> indicator for >>> >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with >> 7018, is >>> >> that >>> >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. >> 6010/11, due >>> >> to >>> >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, >> to be >>> >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced >> welders >>> >> tend >>> >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting >> in a >>> >> bead >>> >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between >> crests & >>> >> troughs. >>> >> >>> >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison >> to 7018, >>> >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, >>> >> resulting >>> >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- >> affected >>> >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially >> when the >>> >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch >> welding can >>> >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal >>> >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns >> using a rod >>> >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or >> 6011, I'll >>> >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though >> I have >>> >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one >> of Brent's >>> >> boats, and he has built many. >>> >> Mike >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> R >>> >> brentswain38 wrote: >>> >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the >> ass, >>> >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 >> is >>> >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood >>> >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all >> steel >>> >> one and thus much more effective. >>> >> Brent >>> >> >>> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > De: >>> >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have >> ever >>> >>> heard from a welder. >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get >>> >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not >>> >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when >>> >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any >>> >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might >>> >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone >>> >>> more experienced if possible. >>> >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is >>> >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from >>> >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding >>> >>> a make you like and sticking with it. >>> >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts >>> >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. >>> >>> >>> >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining >>> >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The >>> >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim >>> >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than >>> >>> visually. >>> >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. >>> >>> >>> >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Colin >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> --------------------------------- >>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >> >>> >> To visit your group on the web, go to: >>> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >>> >> >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >>> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >> >>> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> --------------------------------- >>> >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7742|7703|2005-04-30 22:37:08|fmichael graham|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Keeping your 7018 dry - away from any moisture - is very important. The reason that these rods can only be kept out of the oven for an absolute maximum of 4 hours, is that they will collect moisture from the atmosphere. Having said this, I have hauled around a diminishing box of rods for 8 hours & found no difference in their characteristics. Still, I didn't x-ray the welds either. You can buy small rod ovens that will do a box of rods at a time. You can also buy a rod holder for about $10 (can or u.s.) that has a sealable lid & will allow you to keep them from the oven for the maximum recommended time. When using 7018, make sure you clean the area to be welded & use a degreaser. This may seem to be a lot of hassle when compared to using a 6010/11, but a top-notch welding job is about 80% prep- work. Conversely, I know a lot of welders who will actually dip their 6010/11 in water, to "calm them down". A habit I have - which most guys would roll their eyes at, is leaving a handful of 7018 on the plate I am welding to keep them warm and dry. A more suitable method is to take a piece of pipe, weld a bottom on it, weld a couple of legs on it, put some 7018 inside and warm it up a bit with your cutting torch. a piece of angle iron with a couple of legs will also work. (I can hear "Richytill" screaming "Blasphemy!" right now. LOL) Good luck with the welding! Mike jfpacuas wrote: As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell I am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit this to just rod storage questions. I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The low hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just suggested by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I think I understand the theory of why they store them at temperature, but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage how are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to use excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. The "SLAG" > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. Travel and > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henri Naths" > To: > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > Mike wrote > > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, resulting > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- affected > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > > > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes distortion > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain structure is > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, the flux > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > > H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "fmichael graham" > > To: > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good indicator for > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with 7018, is > >> that > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. 6010/11, due > >> to > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, to be > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced welders > >> tend > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting in a > >> bead > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between crests & > >> troughs. > >> > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison to 7018, > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, > >> resulting > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- affected > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially when the > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch welding can > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns using a rod > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or 6011, I'll > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though I have > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one of Brent's > >> boats, and he has built many. > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> R > >> brentswain38 wrote: > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the ass, > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 is > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all steel > >> one and thus much more effective. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > >>> wrote: > >>> > De: > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have ever > >>> heard from a welder. > >>> > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > >>> more experienced if possible. > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > >>> > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > >>> visually. > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > >>> > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > >>> > >>> Colin > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7743|7732|2005-05-01 06:46:28|sae140|Re: New Guy on the block.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > I still haven't figured out how the Ecuadorians in Salinas and Guayacil, generated acetylene by dropping chunks of stuff in a tank and putting the lid back on, waiting a bit and then lighting the cutting torch, but I am sure we did that in this country, but that was before my time. > The chunks of stuff are Calcium Carbide - still used today by some cavers. Can be purchased from http://www.calcium-carbide.com in the States, from http://www.caving-supplies.co.uk in the UK. Only ever used it myself underground in a lamp, but can't see any reason why it couldn't use it as a DIY cutting torch fuel - would save on tank rental. Colin| 7744|7703|2005-05-01 07:59:08|Bill Jaine|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Not a rod tip but�.don�t wear sandals when welding���I know from experience! Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7745|7703|2005-05-01 11:35:19|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|good tip Bill, Other lessons learn from experience, make sure your boots don't have holes in them also, , a hot glob sizzling thru will also insure your overall pant legs are over your boots.(duck tape is cheap, duck tape pant leg to boots ) . If you are fitting ( holding the piece while the welder tacks it ) wear sunblock on your face (sp15) , shade at least 5 sun glasses and get the welder to say something like "eyes" just before he/she strikes an arc. It's just good practice. The consequence of not protecting your eyes is like hot sand in your eyes at 2 am ..Melanoma and eye cataract are no joke. And one more, DO NOT WELD SHIRTLESS, mig weld in particular, no matter how hot the day is..15 minutes of that radiation is like 8 hr in the rippin hot sun. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jaine" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:58 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 Not a rod tip but..don't wear sandals when welding...I know from experience! Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 7746|7732|2005-05-01 11:44:20|Henri Naths|Re: New Guy on the block.|Hi Colin, Some old miners were telling me eons ago theirs was a similar method of making acetylene. I imagine a storage tank of acetone would be needed as per rental tank. Do you know the prescribed method? Chemical formula? I'll google acetylene generator, be back with a report. Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 4:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New Guy on the block. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > >> I still haven't figured out how the Ecuadorians in Salinas and > Guayacil, generated acetylene by dropping chunks of stuff in a tank and > putting the lid back on, waiting a bit and then lighting the cutting > torch, but I am sure we did that in this country, but that was before > my time. >> > > The chunks of stuff are Calcium Carbide - still used > today by some cavers. > Can be purchased from http://www.calcium-carbide.com > in the States, from http://www.caving-supplies.co.uk > in the UK. > Only ever used it myself underground in a lamp, but > can't see any reason why it couldn't use it as a DIY > cutting torch fuel - would save on tank rental. > Colin > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7747|7703|2005-05-01 12:12:08|jim dorey|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|On Sun, 01 May 2005 08:58:21 -0300, Bill Jaine wrote: > Not a rod tip but….don’t wear sandals when welding………I know from > experience! or in sweatpants. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7748|7748|2005-05-01 12:25:46|Henri Naths|Fw: [origamiboats] Re: New Guy on the block.|well, google has 1140 hits for "acetylene generator" of which 2 sites are safety orientated,.. http://www.csb.gov/index.cfm?folder=news_releases&page=news&NEWS_ID=204 http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1975_March_April/Feedback_on_Mother_No__31 that kind of tells you what you are dealing with..Has anybody ever bought one off of say, e-bay?.A small one capable of producing aprox. 30cf per day would be just the ticket. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 4:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New Guy on the block. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > >> I still haven't figured out how the Ecuadorians in Salinas and > Guayacil, generated acetylene by dropping chunks of stuff in a tank and > putting the lid back on, waiting a bit and then lighting the cutting > torch, but I am sure we did that in this country, but that was before > my time. >> > > The chunks of stuff are Calcium Carbide - still used > today by some cavers. > Can be purchased from http://www.calcium-carbide.com > in the States, from http://www.caving-supplies.co.uk > in the UK. > Only ever used it myself underground in a lamp, but > can't see any reason why it couldn't use it as a DIY > cutting torch fuel - would save on tank rental. > Colin > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7749|7703|2005-05-01 12:28:02|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|or polyester underwear. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim dorey" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > On Sun, 01 May 2005 08:58:21 -0300, Bill Jaine wrote: > >> Not a rod tip but….don’t wear sandals when welding………I know from >> experience! > > or in sweatpants. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7750|7703|2005-05-01 13:43:14|fmichael graham|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|LOL! Whenever I go to the Philippines, it amazes me to see welders working from bamboo scaffolds, wearing a T-shirt & cut-offs, no shoes, no gloves, and holding a stick with a lens taped to it for an eye shield. Yet, with all of our technology & health safety education in Europe, North America, & Aus./NZ., I turn on the t.v. yesterday and see a show, "American Chopper", wherein, one guy is "MIG" welding & another guy is watching and neither are wearing helmets! When I went through welding school(Vancouver Vocational Institute), in 1982, my instructor was replaced part way through the course because he had skin cancer. He died a short time later still bearing the permanently reddened skin on his chest & throat from years of lack of skin protection when welding. The worst incidence of arc burn that I have experienced was when welding aluminum(GMAW), due to the reflective qualities of the metal. From welding on the deck of a rail barge recently, I can notice a pronounced darkened area on my face except in the area that was covered by my respirator. There's a thought; I started welding in a time when nobody wore respirators and was reluctant to wear one when I began at the drydock. Now, I will wear one whenever I weld. I prefer steel-toed shoes, whenever I can get away with it. Unlike boots, if you get some slag in your shoe - who hasn't - you can kick them off! Whenever I wear the shoes, I keep my boots in my truck so that, if the boss catches me, I can give some line of B.S. & go to the parking lot & change. Sandals? Never! Big ouch! LOL Mike Bill Jaine wrote: Not a rod tip but�.don�t wear sandals when welding���I know from experience! Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7751|7703|2005-05-01 13:53:20|Bill Jaine|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Also don�t wear �synthetic� clothes, a decent weight of cotton will give you some spark protection that could melt a polyester etc. Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7752|7703|2005-05-01 14:49:00|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|I used to wear 9" high lace up boots. I had a hot glob of metal go down in my boot and rest under the ball of my foot! You ever try tearing off a tightly laced 9" boot while in excruciating pain? Damn thing burned a hole in the bottom of my foot about 1/2" in diameter. I walked with a limp for nearly three months, it just wouldn't heal. I took my glove off once to reach into a tight corner. The weld didn't start well and I flipped a glob off the tip of the rod. It fell onto my heavy gold wedding band. When I lifted up the helmet the band was glowing red. I badly burned two fingers on the other hand getting the ring off. I never put it back on, I still have a scar there, and I still have the ring with the glob of steel welded to it, but that wife is long gone! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jaine" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 7:58 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 Not a rod tip but….don’t wear sandals when welding………I know from experience! Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 7753|7732|2005-05-01 15:59:22|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: New Guy on the block.|The problem is if it builds up to much presher it will self light and blow up. That is why acetylene tanks have a filler in them. One of the old ways of fishing in the south was to take Calcium Carbide and some rocks put them in a jar witha nail hole in the top and throw it in the water after a while it would go off like a bomb. I think I will stick with the tanks but if you want to save money and don't mind a little extra grinding use Propane/Oxegen. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > > > I still haven't figured out how the Ecuadorians in Salinas and > Guayacil, generated acetylene by dropping chunks of stuff in a tank and > putting the lid back on, waiting a bit and then lighting the cutting > torch, but I am sure we did that in this country, but that was before > my time. > > > > The chunks of stuff are Calcium Carbide - still used > today by some cavers. > Can be purchased from http://www.calcium-carbide.com > in the States, from http://www.caving-supplies.co.uk > in the UK. > Only ever used it myself underground in a lamp, but > can't see any reason why it couldn't use it as a DIY > cutting torch fuel - would save on tank rental. > Colin | 7754|7711|2005-05-01 16:04:52|Puck III|The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff Folder in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy is : http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , rounded of with a " toupile " :-) A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . Hoping it's usefull Old Ben >Subject: photos >Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) > >Hi Ben > >The photos show your craftsmanship to be first class. Yes I would like a drawing of your quick method of making doors, thanks for the kind offer. > >All the best --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Michael , why not use laminated wooden beams so you save > labor time and have a nice finish , cause you can paint the > deck ( eventualy with Bruynzeel teal on ply ) on the working > table before installing the deck on the beams . > How is it done in practice ? Just have a look at the " Ben's stuff" > Folder in the Files of > :http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ > in OBOELO ( working in argot :-) you see me do the painting in > the pic in the topleft corner . > Eolisopeninterior shows you an interior finish with little > maintenance , you could varnish the ply and make the doors > in full wood , I make a full wooden door in about 5 minutes > ( painting or varnish time excluded )just ask and I'l post a pic > and or drawing . > Hoping you like the craftmanship :-) > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK > wrote: > > Hi Ben > > > > I'm interested in saving weight with steel construction. My idea > would to use the steel deck beams as could for in the design, > with a wooden battens through bolted to take the ply decks. > Have you had any problems making the joint between the deck > and hull? Replies from an earlier posting mentioned leaks > leading to rot. I reckon the hull of a 30' boat would expand or > contract about a 1/4" over it's length with a temperature rise or > fall of 40 degrees, this doesn't seem an excessive amount for > modern caulking to take up, so what have you found in practice. > > > > Michael (MJF107UK) > > > > Puck III wrote: > > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give > > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no > > corrosion where there is no steel :-) > > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of > > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) > > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " > > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , > > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck > > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden > > beams if you want to . > > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , > > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend > > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . > > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your > > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in > > fact its a steel hull :-) > > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum > > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden masts > > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and > > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) > > Most people that have used it once , never would even > > think of using another material . > > Just some thoughts > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in Brent's > > book? It is > > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an trailing > > edges > > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the > > halves? Do you > > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at one > > end so as > > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when > you > > are ready > > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' > > Tahitianna > > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one > comment > > to make. > > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. > > Wherever there > > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right > > through the > > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be intact > > and was > > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed > to > > remove. > > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, > > incluedeing > > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a > > steel for greater > > > peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7755|7711|2005-05-01 17:06:42|brentswain38|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|I just tacked the piece of pipe to one side , where it should go, put the other side of the rudder on top , and pulled the leading and trailing edges around it with clamps and vise grips, and tacked the edges together with half inch tacks every four inches. If the two sides are ground identical before pulling them together, matching up the edges should give a symetrical rudder. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I can't remember now Brent, did we put a small piece of pipe sideways > inside the rudder to convince the plate to take a nice curve? I know > we did it with the skeg (2 pieces of pipe). > > I should add, group, that the rudder went together so fast in Brent's > hands that I didn't get it all on film (I was working on something > else). That is the origami way -- some things that take ages to craft > in other materials come together in a flash when working in the medium > of steel with these techniques. > > Alex > > > On 29-Apr-05, at 3:00 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > > > I used to drive the pipe between the two halves . That absolutely > > guaranteed a totally symetrical rudder. Lately I've gone back to > > bending the two halves around the centre pipe with C clamps and vise > > grips ,as pounding the pipe in made a crease down the centre of the > > rudder. Using this method , you have to use a very critical eye to > > make sure it is twist free and symetrical. Clamping the two halves > > together and grinding the edges to make them identical , before > > forming the rudder helps a lot. If initially, you use half inch long > > tacks ever 6 inches, you can pound on these tacks to move either side > > one way or another until the rudder is symetrical, before fully > > welding it. > > You should always move your welding from side to side ,four inches > > at a time, when doing the full welding ,to avoid pulling it out of > > shape with weld shrinkage. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: | 7756|7711|2005-05-01 17:17:58|brentswain38|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|The worst built steel deckhouse is stronger and more watertight in the long term than the best built wooden one. Not going for the strongest and most watertight is just plain bad seamanship. Lining the steel wheelhouse should take no more than a couple of days, a fraction the time it takes to build a wooden one. I've put steel decks on a 36 footer starting from scratch,in eight hours. The hull deck joint takes most of the twisting loads on a hull and is thus a poor place to make a change to a flimsier material.It is also submerged a lot at sea. Herreschof used to put diagonal bronze strappin accross the decks of his designs to satop this twisting action when using wood, a material which has little strength in one direction. Anyone who tells you that his wooden decks don't leak after ten or twenty years is lying.Putting style over substance will land you in a wet bunk eventually.Let those reality critics who would con us into leaky decks sleep in wet bunks.There is no way that a wooden deck can have anywhere near the same insulation factor as a steel deeck with an inch and a half of sprayfoam. On my first boat I lived under wooden decks, with ice forming on the underside of them in the wintertime.No thanks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > all I can say is that the pics posted in the > " Teak deck on steel boat " Folder in Files : > http://tinyurl.com/9m359 & > http://tinyurl.com/arcvx > are pics of Seabird , the 1977 Cruising World Design > Competition Winner ( First ) , more than 200 plans sold . > There are well build boats that do not have leaking decks , > or faulty build fittings , build in any material boats are build with , > and there are badly build boats. > No material is perfect , no builder is perfect . > All one can do is try to go for the best , > in design , building & using the product. > > May be one can assemble a steel pilothouse very quickly, > then the finishing off of the bare steel pilothouse shell > has to be done :-) , how long will it take to build a nice > finished interior into that shell ??? Just wondering ??? > Some love to see a well finished boat. > Personaly I think its worth the extra effort to go for the > best possible , cause a boat is an investment of a lot > of labor , better to be assured of the highest resale value. > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > All wooden decks leak eventually. Steel ones don't . Nothing is > > better for attaching cleats and other deck fittings that welding > > them down. Welding rod is the best, most permanent bedding > compound > > there is.There is no way to get any where near the strngth in > deck > > fittings on a non steel deck that welding them down acheives.A > wooden > > deck( dead vegitation) on a metal hull is extreme foolishness, > (style > > over substance.) > > The owner of the fist 36 footer I did insisted on a wooden > > deckhouse. It took him several minths to put it together, a job I > do > > in steel in about ten hours.It leaked a lot. > > I've seen some local boats built of wood by some of the best > > craftsmen on the coast. Their decks all leaked eventually. > > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give > > > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no > > > corrosion where there is no steel :-) > > > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of > > > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) > > > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " > > > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , > > > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck > > > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden > > > beams if you want to . > > > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , > > > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend > > > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . > > > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your > > > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in > > > fact its a steel hull :-) > > > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum > > > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden > masts > > > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and > > > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) > > > Most people that have used it once , never would even > > > think of using another material . > > > Just some thoughts > > > Old Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in > Brent's > > > book? It is > > > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an > trailing > > > edges > > > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the > > > halves? Do you > > > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at > one > > > end so as > > > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when > you > > > are ready > > > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > > > > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' > > > Tahitianna > > > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one > comment > > > to make. > > > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. > > > Wherever there > > > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right > > > through the > > > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be > intact > > > and was > > > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed > to > > > remove. > > > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, > > > incluedeing > > > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a > > > steel for greater > > > > peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7757|7703|2005-05-01 17:25:48|brentswain38|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|I once worked on the barges working the McKenzie for the oil industry. They insisted on 7018, then gave me an ac welder ( 7018 ac rods werent available then) and cold damp rods. The welds looked like an aero bar inside , but they were happy with them. I wasn't You could weld a bottom on a piece of pipe, put the rods in, put it on top of your woodstove until they are hot, then weld the top on while they are hot, for long term storage. When you need them, zipcut the top off with a grinder.The need to keep 7018 rods super dry is a real pain in the ass, one which their supposed advantages don't come anywhere near justifying. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell I > am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit this > to just rod storage questions. > > I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper > storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their > products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle > with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The low > hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the > original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just suggested > by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I > think I understand the theory of why they store them at temperature, > but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. > > If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage how > are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old > kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up > enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to use > excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? > > Any direction would be greatly appreciated. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. > The "SLAG" > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." > > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. > Travel and > > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. > > H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Henri Naths" > > To: > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > > > Mike wrote > > > to 7018, > > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, > resulting > > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- > affected > > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially > when the > > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > > > > > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes > distortion > > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain > structure is > > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, > the flux > > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > > > H > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "fmichael graham" > > > To: > > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > > > > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good > indicator for > > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with > 7018, is > > >> that > > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. > 6010/11, due > > >> to > > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie welder, > to be > > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced > welders > > >> tend > > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, resulting > in a > > >> bead > > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation between > crests & > > >> troughs. > > >> > > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison > to 7018, > > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld bead, > > >> resulting > > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- > affected > > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, especially > when the > > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch > welding can > > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns > using a rod > > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or > 6011, I'll > > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, though > I have > > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one > of Brent's > > >> boats, and he has built many. > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> > > >> R > > >> brentswain38 wrote: > > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in the > ass, > > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. 6011 > is > > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A wood > > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all > steel > > >> one and thus much more effective. > > >> Brent > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > De: > > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have > ever > > >>> heard from a welder. > > >>> > > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > > >>> more experienced if possible. > > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for finding > > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. > > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > > >>> > > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > > >>> visually. > > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > > >>> > > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > > >>> > > >>> Colin > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --------------------------------- > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > >> > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --------------------------------- > > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > >> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7758|7703|2005-05-01 17:30:26|brentswain38|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|I've found that coveralls pulled over gumboots are best at keeping the hot stuff out. Leather coats,once trendy, now out of style can be real cheap in secondhand stores and are best for welding. Also raingear made of real rubber , and not plastic , sheds spatter without leaving a mark Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > good tip Bill, Other lessons learn from experience, make sure your boots > don't have holes in them also, , a hot glob sizzling thru will also insure > your overall pant legs are over your boots.(duck tape is cheap, duck tape > pant leg to boots ) . If you are fitting ( holding the piece while the > welder tacks it ) wear sunblock on your face (sp15) , shade at least 5 sun > glasses and get the welder to say something like "eyes" just before he/she > strikes an arc. It's just good practice. The consequence of not protecting > your eyes is like hot sand in your eyes at 2 am ..Melanoma and eye cataract > are no joke. And one more, DO NOT WELD SHIRTLESS, mig weld in particular, no > matter how hot the day is..15 minutes of that radiation is like 8 hr in the > rippin hot sun. > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Jaine" > To: > Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:58 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > > Not a rod tip but..don't wear sandals when welding...I know from experience! > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 7759|7703|2005-05-01 17:30:47|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|One instructor had a habit of quietly walking up and standing behind you in your booth. Usually when you were checking out your work. A guy totally absorbed in his work would get quite a startle when he would say something.All very funny until one day he did that to one of the guys who just happen to be holding his welding rod up so that when he jumped he inadvertently shoved that hot rod right up the instructors nostril. You want to see a grown man cry. Molten metal is to be respected. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 >I used to wear 9" high lace up boots. I had a hot glob of metal go down in > my boot and rest under the ball of my foot! You ever try tearing off a > tightly laced 9" boot while in excruciating pain? Damn thing burned a > hole > in the bottom of my foot about 1/2" in diameter. I walked with a limp for > nearly three months, it just wouldn't heal. > > I took my glove off once to reach into a tight corner. The weld didn't > start well and I flipped a glob off the tip of the rod. It fell onto my > heavy gold wedding band. When I lifted up the helmet the band was glowing > red. I badly burned two fingers on the other hand getting the ring off. > I > never put it back on, I still have a scar there, and I still have the ring > with the glob of steel welded to it, but that wife is long gone! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Jaine" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 7:58 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > > Not a rod tip but….don’t wear sandals when welding………I know from > experience! > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7760|7711|2005-05-01 17:33:52|Henri Naths|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Old Ben, I can't seem to get your tinyurl to work, they all come up as HTTP404 Not found.What am I doing wrong? H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Puck III" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 2:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] The " 5 minutes made furniture doors " > Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff Folder > in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy is : > http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , > rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > Hoping it's usefull > > Old Ben > >>Subject: photos >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) >> >>Hi Ben >> >>The photos show your craftsmanship to be first class. Yes I > would like a drawing of your quick method of making doors, > thanks for the kind offer. >> >>All the best > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: >> Hi Michael , why not use laminated wooden beams so you > save >> labor time and have a nice finish , cause you can paint the >> deck ( eventualy with Bruynzeel teal on ply ) on the working >> table before installing the deck on the beams . >> How is it done in practice ? Just have a look at the " Ben's stuff" >> Folder in the Files of >> :http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ >> in OBOELO ( working in argot :-) you see me do the painting in >> the pic in the topleft corner . >> Eolisopeninterior shows you an interior finish with little >> maintenance , you could varnish the ply and make the doors >> in full wood , I make a full wooden door in about 5 minutes >> ( painting or varnish time excluded )just ask and I'l post a pic >> and or drawing . >> Hoping you like the craftmanship :-) >> >> Old Ben >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK >> wrote: >> > Hi Ben >> > >> > I'm interested in saving weight with steel construction. My > idea >> would to use the steel deck beams as could for in the design, >> with a wooden battens through bolted to take the ply decks. >> Have you had any problems making the joint between the deck >> and hull? Replies from an earlier posting mentioned leaks >> leading to rot. I reckon the hull of a 30' boat would expand or >> contract about a 1/4" over it's length with a temperature rise or >> fall of 40 degrees, this doesn't seem an excessive amount for >> modern caulking to take up, so what have you found in > practice. >> > >> > Michael (MJF107UK) >> > >> > Puck III wrote: >> > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give >> > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no >> > corrosion where there is no steel :-) >> > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of >> > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) >> > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " >> > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , >> > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck >> > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden >> > beams if you want to . >> > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , >> > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend >> > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . >> > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your >> > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in >> > fact its a steel hull :-) >> > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum >> > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden > masts >> > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and >> > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) >> > Most people that have used it once , never would even >> > think of using another material . >> > Just some thoughts >> > Old Ben >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" >> > wrote: >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in > Brent's >> > book? It is >> > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an > trailing >> > edges >> > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the >> > halves? Do you >> > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at > one >> > end so as >> > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when >> you >> > are ready >> > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. >> > > >> > > Paul Thompson >> > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com >> > > >> > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' >> > Tahitianna >> > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one >> comment >> > to make. >> > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. >> > Wherever there >> > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right >> > through the >> > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be > intact >> > and was >> > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed >> to >> > remove. >> > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, >> > incluedeing >> > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a >> > steel for greater >> > > peace of mind. >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: >> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------- >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > To visit your group on the web, go to: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of >> Service. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection >> around >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7761|7703|2005-05-01 17:48:18|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|According to cwb you can only recook slightly damped rods once, at a certain temp and time which I cannot recall at the moment(lazy) and will guess one hr at 400 degrees f. H. if anyone is interested I will look it up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 >I once worked on the barges working the McKenzie for the oil > industry. They insisted on 7018, then gave me an ac welder ( 7018 ac > rods werent available then) and cold damp rods. The welds looked like > an aero bar inside , but they were happy with them. I wasn't > You could weld a bottom on a piece of pipe, put the rods in, put it > on top of your woodstove until they are hot, then weld the top on > while they are hot, for long term storage. When you need them, zipcut > the top off with a grinder.The need to keep 7018 rods super dry is a > real pain in the ass, one which their supposed advantages don't come > anywhere near justifying. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" > wrote: >> As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell > I >> am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit > this >> to just rod storage questions. >> >> I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper >> storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their >> products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle >> with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The > low >> hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the >> original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just > suggested >> by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I >> think I understand the theory of why they store them at > temperature, >> but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. >> >> If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage > how >> are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old >> kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up >> enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to > use >> excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? >> >> Any direction would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >> wrote: >> > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. >> The "SLAG" >> > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." >> > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. >> Travel and >> > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. >> > H. >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Henri Naths" >> > To: >> > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >> > >> > >> > > Mike wrote >> > > > to 7018, >> > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld > bead, >> resulting >> > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- >> affected >> > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, > especially >> when the >> > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> >> > > >> > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes >> distortion >> > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain >> structure is >> > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, >> the flux >> > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. >> > > H >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "fmichael graham" >> > > To: >> > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM >> > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >> > > >> > > >> > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good >> indicator for >> > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with >> 7018, is >> > >> that >> > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. >> 6010/11, due >> > >> to >> > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie > welder, >> to be >> > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced >> welders >> > >> tend >> > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, > resulting >> in a >> > >> bead >> > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation > between >> crests & >> > >> troughs. >> > >> >> > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison >> to 7018, >> > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld > bead, >> > >> resulting >> > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the > weld- >> affected >> > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, > especially >> when the >> > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch >> welding can >> > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal >> > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns >> using a rod >> > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or >> 6011, I'll >> > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, > though >> I have >> > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one >> of Brent's >> > >> boats, and he has built many. >> > >> Mike >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> R >> > >> brentswain38 wrote: >> > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in > the >> ass, >> > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. > 6011 >> is >> > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A > wood >> > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all >> steel >> > >> one and thus much more effective. >> > >> Brent >> > >> >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > >> > >> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham >> > >>> wrote: >> > >>> > De: >> > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have >> ever >> > >>> heard from a welder. >> > >>> >> > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get >> > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not >> > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when >> > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any >> > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might >> > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone >> > >>> more experienced if possible. >> > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is >> > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from >> > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for > finding >> > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. >> > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts >> > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. >> > >>> >> > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining >> > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The >> > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim >> > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than >> > >>> visually. >> > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. >> > >>> >> > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! >> > >>> >> > >>> Colin >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> --------------------------------- >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> >> > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> > >> >> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> --------------------------------- >> > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7762|7703|2005-05-01 18:01:09|jfpacuas|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Thanks for all the wise words. As usual, excellent advice. Take home messages for me: Keep low hydrogen rods warm and dry, and don't weld in a G-string, sandals, and no shirt. I think I can handle that. I found a new long, black, leather welding coat yesterday that fits perfectly for $3. And if I can resist the urge to pick up my guitar and sing Johnny Cash songs whenever I don it, it will be great for winter garage welding. I also have a smaller "summer" welding shirt I found cheap. Perhaps I will pick up some 7018, make a few welds right away and let some rod sit around a few days and make a few more welds, just to get a feel for the difference. Thanks again! Cheers Paul In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > According to cwb you can only recook slightly damped rods once, at a certain > temp and time which I cannot recall at the moment(lazy) and will guess one > hr at 400 degrees f. > H. > if anyone is interested I will look it up. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:25 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > > >I once worked on the barges working the McKenzie for the oil > > industry. They insisted on 7018, then gave me an ac welder ( 7018 ac > > rods werent available then) and cold damp rods. The welds looked like > > an aero bar inside , but they were happy with them. I wasn't > > You could weld a bottom on a piece of pipe, put the rods in, put it > > on top of your woodstove until they are hot, then weld the top on > > while they are hot, for long term storage. When you need them, zipcut > > the top off with a grinder.The need to keep 7018 rods super dry is a > > real pain in the ass, one which their supposed advantages don't come > > anywhere near justifying. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" > > wrote: > >> As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell > > I > >> am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit > > this > >> to just rod storage questions. > >> > >> I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper > >> storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their > >> products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle > >> with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The > > low > >> hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the > >> original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just > > suggested > >> by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I > >> think I understand the theory of why they store them at > > temperature, > >> but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. > >> > >> If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage > > how > >> are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old > >> kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up > >> enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to > > use > >> excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? > >> > >> Any direction would be greatly appreciated. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > >> wrote: > >> > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. > >> The "SLAG" > >> > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." > >> > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. > >> Travel and > >> > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. > >> > H. > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Henri Naths" > >> > To: > >> > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > >> > > >> > > >> > > Mike wrote > >> > > >> to 7018, > >> > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld > > bead, > >> resulting > >> > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- > >> affected > >> > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, > > especially > >> when the > >> > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > >> > > > >> > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes > >> distortion > >> > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain > >> structure is > >> > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, > >> the flux > >> > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > >> > > H > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: "fmichael graham" > >> > > To: > >> > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > >> > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good > >> indicator for > >> > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with > >> 7018, is > >> > >> that > >> > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. > >> 6010/11, due > >> > >> to > >> > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie > > welder, > >> to be > >> > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced > >> welders > >> > >> tend > >> > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, > > resulting > >> in a > >> > >> bead > >> > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation > > between > >> crests & > >> > >> troughs. > >> > >> > >> > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison > >> to 7018, > >> > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld > > bead, > >> > >> resulting > >> > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the > > weld- > >> affected > >> > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, > > especially > >> when the > >> > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch > >> welding can > >> > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > >> > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns > >> using a rod > >> > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or > >> 6011, I'll > >> > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, > > though > >> I have > >> > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one > >> of Brent's > >> > >> boats, and he has built many. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> R > >> > >> brentswain38 wrote: > >> > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in > > the > >> ass, > >> > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. > > 6011 > >> is > >> > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A > > wood > >> > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all > >> steel > >> > >> one and thus much more effective. > >> > >> Brent > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > >> > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> > De: > >> > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have > >> ever > >> > >>> heard from a welder. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > >> > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > >> > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > >> > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > >> > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > >> > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > >> > >>> more experienced if possible. > >> > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > >> > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > >> > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for > > finding > >> > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. > >> > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > >> > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > >> > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > >> > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > >> > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > >> > >>> visually. > >> > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Colin > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > >> > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > >> Service. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7763|7703|2005-05-01 18:01:59|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|lol.. nothing like pulling up to a job with a brand new leather jacket that you bought for five bucks at sally Anne's...(I've heard the other welder scoff with their 160.00 dollar jackets..LOL). A buddy of mine wore oilskins rain gear(he was a rancher), said it held up pretty good. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 > I've found that coveralls pulled over gumboots are best at keeping > the hot stuff out. Leather coats,once trendy, now out of style can be > real cheap in secondhand stores and are best for welding. Also > raingear made of real rubber , and not plastic , sheds spatter > without leaving a mark > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: >> good tip Bill, Other lessons learn from experience, make sure your > boots >> don't have holes in them also, , a hot glob sizzling thru will also > insure >> your overall pant legs are over your boots.(duck tape is cheap, > duck tape >> pant leg to boots ) . If you are fitting ( holding the piece while > the >> welder tacks it ) wear sunblock on your face (sp15) , shade at > least 5 sun >> glasses and get the welder to say something like "eyes" just before > he/she >> strikes an arc. It's just good practice. The consequence of not > protecting >> your eyes is like hot sand in your eyes at 2 am ..Melanoma and eye > cataract >> are no joke. And one more, DO NOT WELD SHIRTLESS, mig weld in > particular, no >> matter how hot the day is..15 minutes of that radiation is like 8 > hr in the >> rippin hot sun. >> H. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Jaine" >> To: >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:58 AM >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 >> >> >> Not a rod tip but..don't wear sandals when welding...I know from > experience! >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> Port Hope. Canada >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: > 29/04/2005 >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: > 29/04/2005 >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7764|7703|2005-05-01 18:08:22|jfpacuas|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|I could wear my oilskin pants and my leather, welding trenchcoat. All I need is a horse.....The Lone (novice) Welder! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > lol.. nothing like pulling up to a job with a brand new leather jacket that > you bought for five bucks at sally Anne's...(I've heard the other welder > scoff with their 160.00 dollar jackets..LOL). A buddy of mine wore oilskins > rain gear(he was a rancher), said it held up pretty good. > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:30 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > > > I've found that coveralls pulled over gumboots are best at keeping > > the hot stuff out. Leather coats,once trendy, now out of style can be > > real cheap in secondhand stores and are best for welding. Also > > raingear made of real rubber , and not plastic , sheds spatter > > without leaving a mark > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > wrote: > >> good tip Bill, Other lessons learn from experience, make sure your > > boots > >> don't have holes in them also, , a hot glob sizzling thru will also > > insure > >> your overall pant legs are over your boots.(duck tape is cheap, > > duck tape > >> pant leg to boots ) . If you are fitting ( holding the piece while > > the > >> welder tacks it ) wear sunblock on your face (sp15) , shade at > > least 5 sun > >> glasses and get the welder to say something like "eyes" just before > > he/she > >> strikes an arc. It's just good practice. The consequence of not > > protecting > >> your eyes is like hot sand in your eyes at 2 am ..Melanoma and eye > > cataract > >> are no joke. And one more, DO NOT WELD SHIRTLESS, mig weld in > > particular, no > >> matter how hot the day is..15 minutes of that radiation is like 8 > > hr in the > >> rippin hot sun. > >> H. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Bill Jaine" > >> To: > >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:58 AM > >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > >> > >> > >> Not a rod tip but..don't wear sandals when welding...I know from > > experience! > >> > >> > >> > >> Bill > >> > >> Port Hope. Canada > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: > > 29/04/2005 > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: > > 29/04/2005 > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7765|7711|2005-05-01 18:13:22|MJF107UK|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|Hi Brent I take it you don't recommend wooden decks on steel hulls then :-T So whats the spec for your 31' sail boat deck, does the sprayfoam add stiffness to the plate. Do you need to paint the plate or is the foam good enough to stop rusting? brentswain38 wrote: The worst built steel deckhouse is stronger and more watertight in the long term than the best built wooden one. Not going for the strongest and most watertight is just plain bad seamanship. Lining the steel wheelhouse should take no more than a couple of days, a fraction the time it takes to build a wooden one. I've put steel decks on a 36 footer starting from scratch,in eight hours. The hull deck joint takes most of the twisting loads on a hull and is thus a poor place to make a change to a flimsier material.It is also submerged a lot at sea. Herreschof used to put diagonal bronze strappin accross the decks of his designs to satop this twisting action when using wood, a material which has little strength in one direction. Anyone who tells you that his wooden decks don't leak after ten or twenty years is lying.Putting style over substance will land you in a wet bunk eventually.Let those reality critics who would con us into leaky decks sleep in wet bunks.There is no way that a wooden deck can have anywhere near the same insulation factor as a steel deeck with an inch and a half of sprayfoam. On my first boat I lived under wooden decks, with ice forming on the underside of them in the wintertime.No thanks. Brent --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7766|7703|2005-05-01 18:25:18|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|lol..ok..good to go then...one thing about the open box of 7018, you might not be able to spot the difference. Probably have to do some destructive testing ( cut parallel to the weld so you only have the weld material left. cut a nick with a hack saw like a score line , break it there.Examine for porosity) H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 > Thanks for all the wise words. As usual, excellent advice. Take home > messages for me: Keep low hydrogen rods warm and dry, and don't weld > in a G-string, sandals, and no shirt. I think I can handle that. > > I found a new long, black, leather welding coat yesterday that fits > perfectly for $3. And if I can resist the urge to pick up my guitar > and sing Johnny Cash songs whenever I don it, it will be great for > winter garage welding. I also have a smaller "summer" welding shirt I > found cheap. > > Perhaps I will pick up some 7018, make a few welds right away and let > some rod sit around a few days and make a few more welds, just to get > a feel for the difference. > > Thanks again! > > Cheers > > Paul > > > In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: >> According to cwb you can only recook slightly damped rods once, at > a certain >> temp and time which I cannot recall at the moment(lazy) and will > guess one >> hr at 400 degrees f. >> H. >> if anyone is interested I will look it up. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:25 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 >> >> >> >I once worked on the barges working the McKenzie for the oil >> > industry. They insisted on 7018, then gave me an ac welder ( 7018 > ac >> > rods werent available then) and cold damp rods. The welds looked > like >> > an aero bar inside , but they were happy with them. I wasn't >> > You could weld a bottom on a piece of pipe, put the rods in, put > it >> > on top of your woodstove until they are hot, then weld the top on >> > while they are hot, for long term storage. When you need them, > zipcut >> > the top off with a grinder.The need to keep 7018 rods super dry > is a >> > real pain in the ass, one which their supposed advantages don't > come >> > anywhere near justifying. >> > Brent >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" >> > wrote: >> >> As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the > hell >> > I >> >> am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit >> > this >> >> to just rod storage questions. >> >> >> >> I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper >> >> storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for > their >> >> products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I > fiddle >> >> with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The >> > low >> >> hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the >> >> original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just >> > suggested >> >> by the companies to protect their butts against liability > claims? I >> >> think I understand the theory of why they store them at >> > temperature, >> >> but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. >> >> >> >> If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage >> > how >> >> are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old >> >> kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick > up >> >> enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to >> > use >> >> excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? >> >> >> >> Any direction would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > >> >> wrote: >> >> > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. >> >> The "SLAG" >> >> > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." >> >> > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd > 6010. >> >> Travel and >> >> > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. >> >> > H. >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Henri Naths" >> >> > To: >> >> > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > Mike wrote >> >> > > comparison >> >> to 7018, >> >> > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld >> > bead, >> >> resulting >> >> > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the > weld- >> >> affected >> >> > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, >> > especially >> >> when the >> >> > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> >> >> > > >> >> > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes >> >> distortion >> >> > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain >> >> structure is >> >> > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of > 7018, >> >> the flux >> >> > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. >> >> > > H >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > From: "fmichael graham" >> >> > > To: >> >> > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM >> >> > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good >> >> indicator for >> >> > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with >> >> 7018, is >> >> > >> that >> >> > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. >> >> 6010/11, due >> >> > >> to >> >> > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie >> > welder, >> >> to be >> >> > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even > experienced >> >> welders >> >> > >> tend >> >> > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, >> > resulting >> >> in a >> >> > >> bead >> >> > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation >> > between >> >> crests & >> >> > >> troughs. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in > comparison >> >> to 7018, >> >> > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld >> > bead, >> >> > >> resulting >> >> > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the >> > weld- >> >> affected >> >> > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, >> > especially >> >> when the >> >> > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch >> >> welding can >> >> > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the > thermal >> >> > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns >> >> using a rod >> >> > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 > or >> >> 6011, I'll >> >> > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, >> > though >> >> I have >> >> > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built > one >> >> of Brent's >> >> > >> boats, and he has built many. >> >> > >> Mike >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> R >> >> > >> brentswain38 wrote: >> >> > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in >> > the >> >> ass, >> >> > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. >> > 6011 >> >> is >> >> > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A >> > wood >> >> > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all >> >> steel >> >> > >> one and thus much more effective. >> >> > >> Brent >> >> > >> >> >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" >> > >> >> > >> wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham >> >> > >>> wrote: >> >> > >>> > De: >> >> > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I > have >> >> ever >> >> > >>> heard from a welder. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get >> >> > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not >> >> > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when >> >> > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any >> >> > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it > might >> >> > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone >> >> > >>> more experienced if possible. >> >> > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is >> >> > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics > from >> >> > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for >> > finding >> >> > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. >> >> > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag > almost 'lifts >> >> > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining >> >> > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The >> >> > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to > aim >> >> > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than >> >> > >>> visually. >> >> > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Colin >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> --------------------------------- >> >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> >> > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> > >> >> >> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of >> >> Service. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> --------------------------------- >> >> > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7767|7703|2005-05-01 18:32:29|Henri Naths|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|lol.. as long as you don't wear a g string and sandals and look like Randy on trailer park boys.lol ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 4:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 >I could wear my oilskin pants and my leather, welding trenchcoat. All > I need is a horse.....The Lone (novice) Welder! > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: >> lol.. nothing like pulling up to a job with a brand new leather > jacket that >> you bought for five bucks at sally Anne's...(I've heard the other > welder >> scoff with their 160.00 dollar jackets..LOL). A buddy of mine wore > oilskins >> rain gear(he was a rancher), said it held up pretty good. >> H. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:30 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 >> >> >> > I've found that coveralls pulled over gumboots are best at keeping >> > the hot stuff out. Leather coats,once trendy, now out of style > can be >> > real cheap in secondhand stores and are best for welding. Also >> > raingear made of real rubber , and not plastic , sheds spatter >> > without leaving a mark >> > Brent >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >> > wrote: >> >> good tip Bill, Other lessons learn from experience, make sure > your >> > boots >> >> don't have holes in them also, , a hot glob sizzling thru will > also >> > insure >> >> your overall pant legs are over your boots.(duck tape is cheap, >> > duck tape >> >> pant leg to boots ) . If you are fitting ( holding the piece > while >> > the >> >> welder tacks it ) wear sunblock on your face (sp15) , shade at >> > least 5 sun >> >> glasses and get the welder to say something like "eyes" just > before >> > he/she >> >> strikes an arc. It's just good practice. The consequence of not >> > protecting >> >> your eyes is like hot sand in your eyes at 2 am ..Melanoma and > eye >> > cataract >> >> are no joke. And one more, DO NOT WELD SHIRTLESS, mig weld in >> > particular, no >> >> matter how hot the day is..15 minutes of that radiation is like 8 >> > hr in the >> >> rippin hot sun. >> >> H. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Bill Jaine" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:58 AM >> >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 >> >> >> >> >> >> Not a rod tip but..don't wear sandals when welding...I know from >> > experience! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> Port Hope. Canada >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: >> > 29/04/2005 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: >> > 29/04/2005 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7768|7703|2005-05-01 18:33:49|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Anyone ever try Eutectic rods we used them a lot in the sawmill becouse they held up great without all the extra care we would even pick up a rod from a puddle and weld with it ad have the weld hold under some real heavy stress. http://www.eutectic.com/index_en.html Part of there selling point was coming on a case of 3 10# boxes and having a different sheilding chemestry then other rods on the market that needed less care. Jon| 7769|7711|2005-05-01 18:52:37|Puck III|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Hi Henri , are you a member in Origamiboats2 ? that could be the reason , so I suggest you simply go and find the pic as : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg in the Ben's Stuff folder in Files in Origamiboats2 and send me a comment , will you? Old Ben :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Old Ben, I can't seem to get your tinyurl to work, they all come up as > HTTP404 Not found.What am I doing wrong? > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Puck III" > To: > Sent: 01 May, 2005 2:04 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] The " 5 minutes made furniture doors " > > > > Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff Folder > > in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy is : > > http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > > just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , > > rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > > A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > > Hoping it's usefull > > > > Old Ben > > > >>Subject: photos > >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) > >> > >>Hi Ben > >> > >>The photos show your craftsmanship to be first class. Yes I > > would like a drawing of your quick method of making doors, > > thanks for the kind offer. > >> > >>All the best > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > >> Hi Michael , why not use laminated wooden beams so you > > save > >> labor time and have a nice finish , cause you can paint the > >> deck ( eventualy with Bruynzeel teal on ply ) on the working > >> table before installing the deck on the beams . > >> How is it done in practice ? Just have a look at the " Ben's stuff" > >> Folder in the Files of > >> :http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ > >> in OBOELO ( working in argot :-) you see me do the painting in > >> the pic in the topleft corner . > >> Eolisopeninterior shows you an interior finish with little > >> maintenance , you could varnish the ply and make the doors > >> in full wood , I make a full wooden door in about 5 minutes > >> ( painting or varnish time excluded )just ask and I'l post a pic > >> and or drawing . > >> Hoping you like the craftmanship :-) > >> > >> Old Ben > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK > >> wrote: > >> > Hi Ben > >> > > >> > I'm interested in saving weight with steel construction. My > > idea > >> would to use the steel deck beams as could for in the design, > >> with a wooden battens through bolted to take the ply decks. > >> Have you had any problems making the joint between the deck > >> and hull? Replies from an earlier posting mentioned leaks > >> leading to rot. I reckon the hull of a 30' boat would expand or > >> contract about a 1/4" over it's length with a temperature rise or > >> fall of 40 degrees, this doesn't seem an excessive amount for > >> modern caulking to take up, so what have you found in > > practice. > >> > > >> > Michael (MJF107UK) > >> > > >> > Puck III wrote: > >> > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give > >> > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no > >> > corrosion where there is no steel :-) > >> > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of > >> > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) > >> > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " > >> > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , > >> > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck > >> > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden > >> > beams if you want to . > >> > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , > >> > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend > >> > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . > >> > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your > >> > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in > >> > fact its a steel hull :-) > >> > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum > >> > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden > > masts > >> > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and > >> > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) > >> > Most people that have used it once , never would even > >> > think of using another material . > >> > Just some thoughts > >> > Old Ben > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > >> > wrote: > >> > > Hi, > >> > > > >> > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in > > Brent's > >> > book? It is > >> > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an > > trailing > >> > edges > >> > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the > >> > halves? Do you > >> > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at > > one > >> > end so as > >> > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe when > >> you > >> > are ready > >> > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. > >> > > > >> > > Paul Thompson > >> > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > >> > > > >> > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a 32' > >> > Tahitianna > >> > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one > >> comment > >> > to make. > >> > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel boat. > >> > Wherever there > >> > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going right > >> > through the > >> > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be > > intact > >> > and was > >> > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be destroyed > >> to > >> > remove. > >> > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless still, > >> > incluedeing > >> > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being replaced a > >> > steel for greater > >> > > peace of mind. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: > >> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --------------------------------- > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > To visit your group on the web, go to: > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >> > > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > >> Service. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > __________________________________________________ > >> > Do You Yahoo!? > >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > >> around > >> > http://mail.yahoo.com > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7770|7732|2005-05-01 19:19:56|kendall|Re: New Guy on the block.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Hi Colin, > Some old miners were telling me eons ago theirs was a similar method of > making acetylene. I imagine a storage tank of acetone would be needed as per > rental tank. Do you know the prescribed method? Chemical formula? I'll > google acetylene generator, be back with a report. > Henri. As I understand the operation, it was an 'on demand' type system calibrated to match output to use, and/or kept below 15psi in temporary storage. I don't think they had any real storage systems, as the msds states acetylene as 'non-poisonous' (oxygen displacer and anesthetic) I believe it was simply vented at the end of the shift. I was trying to find some specifics on the operation, trying to determine whether it would be cost effective to set something up like that, but all I've come up with was the process itself. Ken.| 7771|7732|2005-05-01 19:32:29|Henri Naths|Re: New Guy on the block.|Yes at 15psi acetylene is critical. A very important piece if information for new welders. Like nitroglycerine... one bump.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "kendall" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New Guy on the block. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: >> Hi Colin, >> Some old miners were telling me eons ago theirs was a similar method of >> making acetylene. I imagine a storage tank of acetone would be > needed as per >> rental tank. Do you know the prescribed method? Chemical formula? I'll >> google acetylene generator, be back with a report. >> Henri. > > > As I understand the operation, it was an 'on demand' type system > calibrated to match output to use, and/or kept below 15psi in > temporary storage. I don't think they had any real storage systems, as > the msds states acetylene as 'non-poisonous' (oxygen displacer and > anesthetic) I believe it was simply vented at the end of the shift. > I was trying to find some specifics on the operation, trying to > determine whether it would be cost effective to set something up like > that, but all I've come up with was the process itself. > > Ken. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7772|7711|2005-05-01 19:52:20|Henri Naths|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|of course very nice Ben,expert craftsmanship.. something I don't have the patience for .I guess that's why I'm a welder... H. (My favorite quote: Befor i codn't evn spel weldor now i are one.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Puck III" To: Sent: 01 May, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors " > Hi Henri , are you a member in Origamiboats2 ? > that could be the reason , so I suggest you simply go > and find the pic as : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > in the Ben's Stuff folder in Files in Origamiboats2 > and send me a comment , will you? > Old Ben :-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: >> Old Ben, I can't seem to get your tinyurl to work, they all come > up as >> HTTP404 Not found.What am I doing wrong? >> H. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Puck III" >> To: >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 2:04 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] The " 5 minutes made furniture doors " >> >> >> > Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff > Folder >> > in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy > is : >> > http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg >> > just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , >> > rounded of with a " toupile " :-) >> > A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . >> > Hoping it's usefull >> > >> > Old Ben >> > >> >>Subject: photos >> >>Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) >> >> >> >>Hi Ben >> >> >> >>The photos show your craftsmanship to be first class. Yes I >> > would like a drawing of your quick method of making doors, >> > thanks for the kind offer. >> >> >> >>All the best >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Michael , why not use laminated wooden beams so you >> > save >> >> labor time and have a nice finish , cause you can paint the >> >> deck ( eventualy with Bruynzeel teal on ply ) on the working >> >> table before installing the deck on the beams . >> >> How is it done in practice ? Just have a look at the " Ben's > stuff" >> >> Folder in the Files of >> >> :http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ >> >> in OBOELO ( working in argot :-) you see me do the painting > in >> >> the pic in the topleft corner . >> >> Eolisopeninterior shows you an interior finish with little >> >> maintenance , you could varnish the ply and make the > doors >> >> in full wood , I make a full wooden door in about 5 minutes >> >> ( painting or varnish time excluded )just ask and I'l post a > pic >> >> and or drawing . >> >> Hoping you like the craftmanship :-) >> >> >> >> Old Ben >> >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, MJF107UK >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi Ben >> >> > >> >> > I'm interested in saving weight with steel construction. My >> > idea >> >> would to use the steel deck beams as could for in the > design, >> >> with a wooden battens through bolted to take the ply decks. >> >> Have you had any problems making the joint between the > deck >> >> and hull? Replies from an earlier posting mentioned leaks >> >> leading to rot. I reckon the hull of a 30' boat would expand or >> >> contract about a 1/4" over it's length with a temperature rise > or >> >> fall of 40 degrees, this doesn't seem an excessive amount > for >> >> modern caulking to take up, so what have you found in >> > practice. >> >> > >> >> > Michael (MJF107UK) >> >> > >> >> > Puck III wrote: >> >> > Hi Paul , I agree that wood on top of a steel deck will give >> >> > corrosion problems , on the other hand there can be no >> >> > corrosion where there is no steel :-) >> >> > Some boats I have made stil look great afther 25 years of >> >> > use as liveaboards ( I ' post some pics soon ) >> >> > See somepics in the Folder " teak deck on steel boat " >> >> > no steel under that teak , just plywood over steel beams , >> >> > For estetics , or weightsaving you can build your all deck >> >> > and superstructure in full or plywood , even use wooden >> >> > beams if you want to . >> >> > Varnishing a nice looking wooden Pilothouse is work , >> >> > but some folks like the look , I would not recommend >> >> > epoxy varnish for outside , meaning exposed to sunlight . >> >> > Well done it's always nice to have visitors ask if your >> >> > wooden hull gives you much maintenance , when in >> >> > fact its a steel hull :-) >> >> > Same goes for the very thick , roughly sanded aluminum >> >> > I use for the mast ( and eventualy gaff ) parts on wooden >> > masts >> >> > they look like galvanised steel ( without the weight and >> >> > maintenance , costing less and no maintenance :-) >> >> > Most people that have used it once , never would even >> >> > think of using another material . >> >> > Just some thoughts >> >> > Old Ben >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. > Thompson" >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > Hi, >> >> > > >> >> > > Has anyone built a rudder in the manner described in >> > Brent's >> >> > book? It is >> >> > > not quite clear to me. Do you tack both the leading an >> > trailing >> >> > edges >> >> > > together before you drive the 11/2 inch pipe between the >> >> > halves? Do you >> >> > > put a small piece of 1/4 inch scrap between the plate at >> > one >> >> > end so as >> >> > > to make a gap to insert the flattened end of the pipe > when >> >> you >> >> > are ready >> >> > > to start driving it in ? Thanks in advance. >> >> > > >> >> > > Paul Thompson >> >> > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com >> >> > > >> >> > > PS. I am doing a major overhaul of my boat La Chica, a > 32' >> >> > Tahitianna >> >> > > type steel boat. After 15 years of hard use, I have one >> >> comment >> >> > to make. >> >> > > Wood has absolutely no place on the deck of a steel > boat. >> >> > Wherever there >> >> > > was wood I have found corrosion. In somplaces going > right >> >> > through the >> >> > > deck. This despite M5200 bedding that appeared to be >> > intact >> >> > and was >> >> > > still bonding so well that the woodwork had to be > destroyed >> >> to >> >> > remove. >> >> > > All woodwork has now been replaced with stainless > still, >> >> > incluedeing >> >> > > hatch coammings. The wooden rudder is being > replaced a >> >> > steel for greater >> >> > > peace of mind. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: >> >> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --------------------------------- >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > To visit your group on the web, go to: >> >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > >> >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms >> > of >> >> Service. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > > __________________________________________________ >> >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection >> >> around >> >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> > >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7773|7711|2005-05-01 19:55:44|kendall|Re: Building a rudder, Brent's Style and a comment regarding wood|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The worst built steel deckhouse is stronger and more watertight in > the long term than the best built wooden one. Not going for the > strongest and most watertight is just plain bad seamanship. > Lining the steel wheelhouse should take no more than a couple of > days, a fraction the time it takes to build a wooden one. I've put > steel decks on a 36 footer starting from scratch,in eight hours. > The hull deck joint takes most of the twisting loads on a hull and > is thus a poor place to make a change to a flimsier material.It is > also submerged a lot at sea. Herreschof used to put diagonal bronze > strappin accross the decks of his designs to satop this twisting > action when using wood, a material which has little strength in one > direction. > Anyone who tells you that his wooden decks don't leak after ten or > twenty years is lying.Putting style over substance will land you in a > wet bunk eventually.Let those reality critics who would con us into > leaky decks sleep in wet bunks.There is no way that a wooden deck can > have anywhere near the same insulation factor as a steel deeck with > an inch and a half of sprayfoam. On my first boat I lived under > wooden decks, with ice forming on the underside of them in the > wintertime.No thanks. > Brent I agree, steel from a structural standpoint can't realy be beat, especially when talking strength/cost. I do like the looks of wood though. so, would it be feasable to place z girts crosswise on the deck and fasten planking eitehr directly to that, or via an 'easily' removable sub-girt, wood deck fastened to subgirt, remove subgirt taking decking with it for easy access to the 'real' deck? the girts would keep the wood off the steel, except at the girt/subgirt avoiding a lot of the drawbacks of wood on steel. and depending on the fastening system, the girts themselves could be easily removed and replaced. I agree completely with the need to keep the wood off the steel, I used to work on old willy's cars and trucks, and many of them had wood stiffeners encased in steel channels welded to the body to stiffen the floorboards and beds, and on otherwise perfect trucks, you'd have stripes rusted out where the wood was. ken| 7774|7703|2005-05-01 20:10:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|I did some work at a greenhouse in Florida. The women were trying to outdo one another with the skimpiest outfits working in the hot greenhouses. It got down to cut off t-shirts and G-strings before a fork truck driver drove into a pole in the building, and they instituted a clothing requirement. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 > lol.. as long as you don't wear a g string and sandals and look like Randy > on trailer park boys.lol > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jfpacuas" > To: > Sent: 01 May, 2005 4:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > >>I could wear my oilskin pants and my leather, welding trenchcoat. All >> I need is a horse.....The Lone (novice) Welder! >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >> wrote: >>> lol.. nothing like pulling up to a job with a brand new leather >> jacket that >>> you bought for five bucks at sally Anne's...(I've heard the other >> welder >>> scoff with their 160.00 dollar jackets..LOL). A buddy of mine wore >> oilskins >>> rain gear(he was a rancher), said it held up pretty good. >>> H. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "brentswain38" >>> To: >>> Sent: 01 May, 2005 3:30 PM >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2 >>> >>> >>> > I've found that coveralls pulled over gumboots are best at keeping >>> > the hot stuff out. Leather coats,once trendy, now out of style >> can be >>> > real cheap in secondhand stores and are best for welding. Also >>> > raingear made of real rubber , and not plastic , sheds spatter >>> > without leaving a mark >>> > Brent >>> > >>> > >>> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" >>> > wrote: >>> >> good tip Bill, Other lessons learn from experience, make sure >> your >>> > boots >>> >> don't have holes in them also, , a hot glob sizzling thru will >> also >>> > insure >>> >> your overall pant legs are over your boots.(duck tape is cheap, >>> > duck tape >>> >> pant leg to boots ) . If you are fitting ( holding the piece >> while >>> > the >>> >> welder tacks it ) wear sunblock on your face (sp15) , shade at >>> > least 5 sun >>> >> glasses and get the welder to say something like "eyes" just >> before >>> > he/she >>> >> strikes an arc. It's just good practice. The consequence of not >>> > protecting >>> >> your eyes is like hot sand in your eyes at 2 am ..Melanoma and >> eye >>> > cataract >>> >> are no joke. And one more, DO NOT WELD SHIRTLESS, mig weld in >>> > particular, no >>> >> matter how hot the day is..15 minutes of that radiation is like 8 >>> > hr in the >>> >> rippin hot sun. >>> >> H. >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: "Bill Jaine" >>> >> To: >>> >> Sent: 01 May, 2005 5:58 AM >>> >> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Not a rod tip but..don't wear sandals when welding...I know from >>> > experience! >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Bill >>> >> >>> >> Port Hope. Canada >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: >>> > 29/04/2005 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: >>> > 29/04/2005 >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7775|22|2005-05-01 20:42:33|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /idiots.jpg Uploaded by : zachdour Description : Good advise for good Old Ben You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/idiots.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, zachdour | 7776|7711|2005-05-01 21:43:37|Paul J. Thompson|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Ben, The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? Regards, Paul Thompson www.sailingwithoutasound.com Puck III wrote: >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff Folder >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy is : >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . >Hoping it's usefull > >Old Ben > > > > > | 7777|7777|2005-05-01 23:11:33|Mia|info about Dove III|Hi Mister Brent Swain , can you give me the Dove III specifications , and tell me how much the plan cost is ?? Thanks in advance. Mia| 7778|7711|2005-05-01 23:28:39|Puck III|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Hi Paul , I used regular push to open & close kitchen hinges with a build in springmechanism , ,when sprayed with WD 40 once in a while they live rather long on any dry boat :-) replacing them is fast and cheap ; you can paint or varnish the doors , choose the mat finish over the shiny finish , so you see the nailprints less and save on revarnishing . Succes with your renovation and keep us posted about how the new rig will perform , cause I am curious . Regards --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Ben, > > The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > Puck III wrote: > > >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff Folder > >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy is : > >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , > >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > >Hoping it's usefull > > > >Old Ben > > > > > > > > > > | 7779|7711|2005-05-01 23:50:18|Puck III|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Hi Paul , I used regular push to open & close kitchen hinges with a build in springmechanism , ,when sprayed with WD 40 once in a while they live rather long on any dry boat :-) replacing them is fast and cheap ; you can paint or varnish the doors , choose the mat finish over the shiny finish , so you see the nailprints less and save on revarnishing . Succes with your renovation and keep us posted about how the new rig will perform , cause I am curious . Regards --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Ben, > > The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > Puck III wrote: > > >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff Folder > >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy is : > >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , > >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > >Hoping it's usefull > > > >Old Ben > > > > > > > > > > | 7780|7703|2005-05-02 00:06:16|Wesley Cox|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Fwiw, I had a similar experience with a deep flesh burn, top of the foot. It was no more healed after several months than on the first day despite successfully healing myself many times for many years. In a flash of inspiration, which now seems more akin to a 'duh' moment, I began rubbing the juices of a small cutting of live aloe vera on it 2-3 times a day. After a week, it was healed completely. Gary H. Lucas wrote: >I used to wear 9" high lace up boots. I had a hot glob of metal go down in >my boot and rest under the ball of my foot! You ever try tearing off a >tightly laced 9" boot while in excruciating pain? Damn thing burned a hole >in the bottom of my foot about 1/2" in diameter. I walked with a limp for >nearly three months, it just wouldn't heal. > >I took my glove off once to reach into a tight corner. The weld didn't >start well and I flipped a glob off the tip of the rod. It fell onto my >heavy gold wedding band. When I lifted up the helmet the band was glowing >red. I badly burned two fingers on the other hand getting the ring off. I >never put it back on, I still have a scar there, and I still have the ring >with the glob of steel welded to it, but that wife is long gone! > >Gary H. Lucas > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Jaine" >To: >Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 7:58 AM >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > >Not a rod tip but….don’t wear sandals when welding………I know from experience! > > > >Bill > >Port Hope. Canada > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 > > > > > | 7781|7711|2005-05-02 00:27:34|seeratlas|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Ben, Now I know for a fact you have a hell of a lot more experience at this stuff than I, but surely you're not talking about the everyday push open push close latches? No offense but I'm not entirely confident those things would stay shut under the kind of conditions you can encounter in the open ocean. I've had boats thrown either up /down, sideways or some combination thereof 30 or forty feet, and known some who rolled or even worse, pitchpoled. In a great many accidents at sea, the ship isn't damaged but people inside get hurt by either being tossed around and into things that have come loose or out of bins/drawers etc., or having said objects doing the flying around until they reach "oneness" with a warm body. Either way, for anything other than a day sailer, I think I would rather go with something a bit more secure. "Batten down the hatches" could apply to more than just the external openings on a boat. seer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Paul , I used regular push to open & close kitchen hinges > with a build in springmechanism , ,when sprayed with WD 40 > once in a while they live rather long on any dry boat :-) > replacing them is fast and cheap ; you can paint or varnish > the doors , choose the mat finish over the shiny finish , > so you see the nailprints less and save on revarnishing . > Succes with your renovation and keep us posted about > how the new rig will perform , cause I am curious . > > Regards > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > Ben, > > > > The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul Thompson > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > Puck III wrote: > > > > >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff > Folder > > >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy > is : > > >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > > >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , > > >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > > >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > > >Hoping it's usefull > > > > > >Old Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7782|22|2005-05-02 00:29:42|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Teak deck on steel boat /BrentSwain-OldBenFinish.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : just see the difference and judge yourself :-) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Teak%20deck%20on%20steel%20boat%20/BrentSwain-OldBenFinish.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7783|22|2005-05-02 00:39:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Contradictions & Funny Secrets/FunSecrets.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : who 's gone tell us , what the real info is ?? You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Contradictions%20%26%20Funny%20Secrets/FunSecrets.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7784|7711|2005-05-02 00:55:08|Puck III|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Hi Seer , all your arguments are correct , my mistake : I forgot to mention the special systems ( fast and easy to make again ) that make it possible to open those doors under heeling & wish hold everything securely in place when the weather go wild . Even the bottles in the bar , we dont want to spoil a drop :-) The only place where you could bang your head is while sitting on the Lavac in a storm ; why sit when you can kneel ? Hoping you still love a Joke :-) I will post a pic as soon as I can . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Ben, > Now I know for a fact you have a hell of a lot more experience at this > stuff than I, but surely you're not talking about the everyday push > open push close latches? No offense but I'm not entirely confident > those things would stay shut under the kind of conditions you can > encounter in the open ocean. I've had boats thrown either up /down, > sideways or some combination thereof 30 or forty feet, and known some > who rolled or even worse, pitchpoled. In a great many accidents at > sea, the ship isn't damaged but people inside get hurt by either being > tossed around and into things that have come loose or out of > bins/drawers etc., or having said objects doing the flying around > until they reach "oneness" with a warm body. Either way, for anything > other than a day sailer, I think I would rather go with something a > bit more secure. "Batten down the hatches" could apply to more than > just the external openings on a boat. > > seer. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Paul , I used regular push to open & close kitchen hinges > > with a build in springmechanism , ,when sprayed with WD 40 > > once in a while they live rather long on any dry boat :-) > > replacing them is fast and cheap ; you can paint or varnish > > the doors , choose the mat finish over the shiny finish , > > so you see the nailprints less and save on revarnishing . > > Succes with your renovation and keep us posted about > > how the new rig will perform , cause I am curious . > > > > Regards > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > > > > The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > > > Puck III wrote: > > > > > > >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff > > Folder > > > >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it realy > > is : > > > >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > > > >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden plank , > > > >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > > > >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > > > >Hoping it's usefull > > > > > > > >Old Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7785|7785|2005-05-02 06:33:04|Puck III|Corten Steel & Expert Thoughts :-)|Any new thoughts available ?? In couda venenum ( the venum sits in the " Origami " tail :-) Easy Price , you will have to go over all in this post again . The fun starts at : In the 70' I was moored of a shipyard in Oakland................. and from there on starts the Naughty Joke........... Is it me posting ( self-proclaimed ) expert bla-bla in here or is the author from the bla-bla ( no active posting members in here , WOW , lucky us :-) posting the Joke ?? Any reader with a brain can make is own conclusions, and follow false profets with ridiculous claims or make up his mind independently by carefully learning to investigate Facts .(example : what are the Facts about Corten ? Whats the use of framing in so called frameless construction " Origami "? Just wondering Ben --- In flatwaterboatresearch@yahoogroups.com, "pricereynolds" wrote: > > Ben, > > Sorry, I am a little slow this evening, whats the naughty joke? You > will have to forgive me, its been a long day, just got in from > laying out a foundation for a wheelchair ramp. Please explain. > > Price > --- In flatwaterboatresearch@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > wrote: > > Hi Price , I hope you can smile with a naughty joke : > > Who the hell are we gone trust ? > > Can you trust your own eyes about what you read written on > > that Sea-Container ? > > The Manufacturer of an apparent fine serie product ,I posted > > the link for ? > > My personal great experience with Corten sinds 1975 ?? > > The more than 4000 positive Google search-results , with > > Pics etcetera about " Corten Steel " > > Or the opinion of somebody considered an expert by some ; > > on the other hand I must admit the so called expert opinion > > comes from hear-say from an obscure foreman in the 1970 . > > Who the hell is playing a naughty joke on line ?? > > > > I hope this gives the Group something to think about , > > just see the previous postings about " Origami " > > especialy the fact some people think the framing is > > to fix the furniture :-) > > > > I just started with some modelmaking cause I am learning > > to every day ; I 'll make some pics and post them > > > > --- In flatwaterboatresearch@yahoogroups.com, "pricereynolds" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > It is funny you bring this up today. I was stuck in traffic > today > > > and was behind a truck carring a marine shipping container, > > and I > > > read every decal on the back of it. One of the said, "Repair > only > > > with Corten Steel. Did not know what it was glad you told me, I > > was > > > going to search for it tonight, you have saved me some time. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Pricer > > > > > --- In flatwaterboatresearch@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > > > wrote: > > > > http://www.nonstopscaffolding.com/uglytubs.html > > > > ugly ?? worth looking at ?? Corten sure is > > > > especialy for boats > > > > Ben > > > > In the 70's I was moored off a shipyard in Auckland where they > > had > > been building steel tugs for decades. When I asked the foreman > > about > > corten he said that they had tried it and found that it was far > more > > trouble and expense than it was worth. Distortion was much > > greater, > > and there was electrolysis between the welds and the corten. As > > it > > was only available in plate and not in any other shapes , there > > was > > electrolysis between other shapes and the plate. They went back > > to > > common mild steel as there was no good reason not to. > > When I'm not cruising offshore , the bottom of my twin keels tend > > to > > look like freshly sandblasted steel for years at a time ,and I've > > had > > no corrosion problems there . The zincs have always kept them > > shiny > > and rust free. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > > wrote: > > > Personaly I would also ask for a quotation to build the hull > > > in Corten or Kortensteel , especialy if the boat will sitt on the > > > beach with each tide . Why ? Any protection as primers , paints > > > & antifouling will suffer so some surface will be unprotected > > > steel or aluminum , the best steel ( you could consider it > > > self-protecting ) to avoid rust is Corten or Korten . > > > The Dutch use is often , some viaducts for trafic and even > > > some real pretty well engineered buildings stand sinds more > > > than 20 years totaly unprotected and still do the job they > > > where designed for with strenght and elegance. > > > Corten or Korten is a bit harder to form , cause its a bit > stiffer > > > I havent seen the plans but with the same scantlings you > > > can expect higher strenght , so it sure could be interesting > > > to run both hulls through the computer and see if any > > > weightsavings can be considered , eventualy the yard > > > could even choose for a VdS ( only vertical stiffeners or webs) > > > but you sure should consult the designer . > > > Insurance sure would be cheaper if you build to classification > > > scantlings , and a ceritification is a best price guarantee for > > > any second hand boat offered for sale :-) > > > You could start with a 26' and want a 31' later . > > > A Belgian member is seriously considering having one build:-) > > > Who better to trade in , than the builder ? > > > Just some thoughts and wondering > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > I would very much like to hear other views about this > > > subject. > > > > May > > > > > > be someone has already done the homework on this, > > built > > > a boat > > > > and > > > > > > is in the position to give specific and well founded > > > opinions? > > > > Any > > > > > > experiences supporting the above, or may be opposite > > way > > > around? > > > > > ORIGAMI ( previous quote from an Origami Fan in Flatwaterboatresearch) > > > " I think what you're seeing there and what they're terming > > > 'stringers' are more for attachment points for the interior > fittings > > > and to provide some standoff distance for those fittings so that > > > the hull can be foamed for insulation. If you go through the > > photo > > > album there and see some of the build sequences, you can > > see > > > how the hull is folded up from a couple of sheets and welded > > > together; mostly in the builder's back-yard from the looks of > it. I > > > don't doubt the Reducostall  process works in a similar > > manner, > > > though they're able to use thicker plates of higher tensile > > > strength due to the heavy equipment they have available to put > > > the thing together " | 7786|7732|2005-05-02 07:27:07|denis buggy|Re: New Guy on the block.|tim be careful and put a few drops of water on carbide and it will generate gas 30 years ago all our miners lamps were carbide . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] New Guy on the block. I am sure of that as when I was cruising around Panama, Colombia and Ecuador, I saw an amazing array of tools, ideas, power and mechanicals. Consider that the 80 foot coconut schooner, (How big is the boat skipper...? 80 mil cocos meaning it holds 80,000 coconuts and a 40,000 cocos would be then a 40 footer) in the Gulf of Uraba all like the Buick in line eight cylinder auto engine for power because of the 1> great distances....no 2> The great flow of the Atrato river ...... no, well maybe. 3> Accidents on the roads had reduced the body to nothing but the engine and dyna flow transmission conversion to boat was easy and provided power at next to nothing prices...... Yep that's the reason. One 80 footer I saw being built outside of Acandi Colombia, had no electrical tools being used. Hand tools only. She became known as the 'Antioquenita", and later when I had to leave Panama's lower San Blas chain village because of Gen Torillos, it was as a guest on that ship going to Turbo Colombia. Needless to say my replacement passport, which I still have, was issued in Medellín, Colombia. She sailed beautifully as a gaffrigged schooner by the way, just don't point to close to the wind........ I still haven't figured out how the Ecuadorians in Salinas and Guayacil, generated acetylene by dropping chunks of stuff in a tank and putting the lid back on, waiting a bit and then lighting the cutting torch, but I am sure we did that in this country, but that was before my time. I know, you guys are wondering why I have waited 30 years holding a set of plans, but the time was not right. Now it is and I have access to time, material and anything else needed to do the project......almost. Need your thoughts and ideas, so I don't make any Junior mistakes...... 4 items that I am interested in having some input, 1.there are newer diesel engines out there and would like to see where you guys knowledge base has, 2. Mast and spars will be of aluminum and where is the best source. 3. holding, H2O and diesel tanks should be of which material. 4. a very insightful item cam up in one of your .jpg from the file section, was about the galley being a nightmare as 20° off center and so I would like you thoughts on that as well. My experience is from long ago, and since they were on Alden and Angleman design, the galleys were a dream. But they were larger boats too. I appreciate your time and any that are in my neighborhood....mi casa es su casa..... Tim Ps Why would discussions get heated. or is it just about design and stuff......? ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham Hi Tim! Boy, are you & Paul Thompson going to have a lot to talk about(Tahitiana steel ketches). If this is the first time that you've come across this group then your really in for a treat. There are members who design steel boats, members who build them, members who dream about building them. Though discussion, on rare occasions, can get a bit heated, there are resources in this group for every aspect of building & equipping steel boats. For instance; there are members who can tell you how to turn whatever your driving into a portable welding machine(lol). Hope you enjoy this group as much as I have. Mike Tim wrote: Hi all, just cruising the Net in search of ideas as I go about trying to get my shit together on building a tahitiana, a steel ketch, from plans that have had for 30 years or more. But I came across your group and was intrigued to say the least. Hope to have some insight and ideas from you folks. Care to post for me would be great. I live in Oceanside, Ca and if you care to stop by for a chat, a few beers or quaff a few and a BBQ, all would be welcome.... Tim To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7787|7787|2005-05-02 08:03:10|Puck III|Shady Business :-)|Usefull info ? Just wondering if there is an interest in some thoughts about insulation ? Old Ben @yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > Hi All > > Just some thoughts about insulation , > > as advertised on his website , Tarpman sure is running an > > excellent Shady Business :-) > > > > For the last 15 years Urethane , Polystyrene and Isoyamerates > > foam insulations where a good choice , having an advertised > > R-5 to R-8 value , age and deterioration can give as much as > > 50 % loss. > > Moisture in insulation destroys its insulating qualities cause > > moisture is one of the best heat & cold conductors. > > > > Air will deposit moisture on any surface that is 10° cooler > > than the ambiant air. > > An ducted airinlet forcing air ( needed for good ventilation ) > > over the heater before using it in the interior is a good option. > > > > Spraying foam means that the insulation even with a closed > > cell foam will have many airspaces on many sides , often > > hidden by decoration items as upholstery or wood amongst > > others . > > > > The only good insulation that has a good R value is the > > insulation that is poured into sheets where density is > controlled. > > > > Spray foames just do not provide as high an R value as > > desired , this compared to the Radiant Energy Barrier's R-25 > > > > Radiant Energy Barrier is a NASA spinoff technology material > > that reflects up to 97% of all radiant ( infrared ) energy. > > > > Radiant Energy Barrier insulation materials are the latest > > in insulation materials , well tested on boats and now on > > offer for a decent price , even in small quantities. > > > > A simple Silver Tarp Bimin Top cover stops the Sun :-) > > > > The Radiant Energy Barrier material STOP's heat & cold , > > and the extra insulation between layers eliminates > > heat & cold bridges , it is not just slowing down de transfer > rate. > > > > Cheap , light , easy to install ( installed it myself on a 29 ft > glass > > sailboat , and it works even better on steel and aluminum > > boats ) , I see no reason to stay with the spray foam. > > > > Test it yourself by reading the difference in temperature of > > 3 thermometers under 3 testsamples you install on a table > > under 3 different testsamples you can make , one being > > the Silver Tarp ( some of you must know the emergency > > blankets used by police , ambulances & firedepartments ), > > the read out difference will be stagering :-) > > > > So I sugest you all do some testing and make your own > > conclusions and decisions. > > With insulation it's like with cars and trucks to give a simple > > comparaison . Who the hell would like to drive around > > all day in a car designed and conceived in the seventies ?? > > > > Old Timers belong in a well heated garage , surrounded > > with care and love , and only taken out on a fine day > > as a tribute to long gone days. > > > > Hoping this post is usefull. > > Old Ben | 7788|7703|2005-05-02 12:04:03|gschnell|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|For what it's worth: I ran into problems with keeping 7018 dry (like everyone has, I suspect) I took a 5 gal metal pail, laid it on its side, cut and inserted an "expanded metal" tray in to lay the 7018 on, installed a 100W light bulb under the tray, plugged the light bulb into 110VAC and put the lid back on the pail. If you do this as soon as you first open the 7018 package, it will stay dry and weld very nicely. Gord brentswain38 wrote: > I once worked on the barges working the McKenzie for the oil > industry. They insisted on 7018, then gave me an ac welder ( 7018 ac > rods werent available then) and cold damp rods. The welds looked like > an aero bar inside , but they were happy with them. I wasn't > You could weld a bottom on a piece of pipe, put the rods in, put it > on top of your woodstove until they are hot, then weld the top on > while they are hot, for long term storage. When you need them, zipcut > the top off with a grinder.The need to keep 7018 rods super dry is a > real pain in the ass, one which their supposed advantages don't come > anywhere near justifying. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" > wrote: > > As a self-teaching ("self-taught" would imply I know what the hell > I > > am doing) welder I have many questions, but for now I will limit > this > > to just rod storage questions. > > > > I notice the rod companies go to great lengths to describe proper > > storage schemes for rod to ensure sufficient performance for their > > products. It seems that the generic 6011/6013 (mostly what I fiddle > > with these days) do not require extreme measures for storage. The > low > > hydrogen electrodes appear to require hot/dry storage once the > > original cannister is opened. Is this crucial or is it just > suggested > > by the companies to protect their butts against liability claims? I > > think I understand the theory of why they store them at > temperature, > > but I am curious as to how this is dealt with in practice. > > > > If the low hydrogen electrodes really do require hot/dry storage > how > > are all you home welders meeting that? Should I pick up an old > > kitchen oven and dedicate it for rod drying? Should I just pick up > > enough rod for what I need and dispose of excess? Or is it ok to > use > > excess 7018 etc. for non-life-dependent welds? > > > > Any direction would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > wrote: > > > sorry, that should of been "fix that with a cover pass of 7018. > > The "SLAG" > > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010." > > > p.s...The heat for a 1/8 th 7018 should be same for 5/32nd 6010. > > Travel and > > > deposition should be still be faster than the 1/8th 7018. > > > H. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Henri Naths" > > > To: > > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 7:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > > > > > > Mike wrote > > > > > to 7018, > > > > brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld > bead, > > resulting > > > > in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the weld- > > > affected > > > > zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, > especially > > when the > > > > plates are otherwise restricted in movement.> > > > > > > > > 6010..fast deposit, fast freeze, deep penetration, minimizes > > distortion > > > > ,downside: residual stresses due to fast cooling.The grain > > structure is > > > > likened to crystallization, fix that with a cover pass of 7018, > > the flux > > > > slows down the cooling and "recooks" the 6010. > > > > H > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "fmichael graham" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: 29 April, 2005 5:09 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stupid newbie welder question > > > > > > > > > > > >> Well, I'd have to disagree with Brent on this one. A good > > indicator for > > > >> correct amperage & travel speed - for de - when welding with > > 7018, is > > > >> that > > > >> the slag is removed easily, often lifting off on it's own. > > 6010/11, due > > > >> to > > > >> their fast-freeze characteristics, may seem, to a rookie > welder, > > to be > > > >> easier to lay-in, however, I have found that even experienced > > welders > > > >> tend > > > >> to use a less than satisfactory "whip & pause" motion, > resulting > > in a > > > >> bead > > > >> that resembles fish scales, with too much of a deviation > between > > crests & > > > >> troughs. > > > >> > > > >> As well, the slow speed of welding with 6010/11, in comparison > > to 7018, > > > >> brings about increased heat at any given point of the weld > bead, > > > >> resulting > > > >> in greater distortion & residual stresses, not only in the > weld- > > affected > > > >> zone, but in the entire plates that are being welded, > especially > > when the > > > >> plates are otherwise restricted in movement. While stitch > > welding can > > > >> alleviate some of the deformation, on gauge sheet, the thermal > > > >> conductivity is such that, I believe, one have less concerns > > using a rod > > > >> capable of a more rapid travel speed. The benefit of a 6010 or > > 6011, I'll > > > >> admit, is the application of much lower current. As well, > though > > I have > > > >> welded a lot of thin gauge materials, I have not yet built one > > of Brent's > > > >> boats, and he has built many. > > > >> Mike > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> R > > > >> brentswain38 wrote: > > > >> 7018 is probably the hardest slag to remove, a real pain in > the > > ass, > > > >> unless the weld under it is perfect, and on a flat surface. > 6011 > > is > > > >> probably the easiest.6013 and 7024 are usually quite easy. A > wood > > > >> handled axe type chipping hammer is much heavier than an all > > steel > > > >> one and thus much more effective. > > > >> Brent > > > >> > > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > De: > > > >>> > LOL. That's the most honest - not stupid - question I have > > ever > > > >>> heard from a welder. > > > >>> > > > >>> I agree with that wholeheartedly. From time to time I get > > > >>> 'sticky slag' and it's usually due to damp rods or not > > > >>> enough current ... or something similar. Problem is, when > > > >>> you're starting out there is a natural tendency to view any > > > >>> fault as being due to 'operator error', when in fact it might > > > >>> not be ! That's one good reason to work alongside someone > > > >>> more experienced if possible. > > > >>> I use only 6013's for mild, and have found that there is > > > >>> considerable difference between the slag characteristics from > > > >>> different manufacturers, so it seems there's a case for > finding > > > >>> a make you like and sticking with it. > > > >>> When the weld is 'right' with a good rod, slag almost 'lifts > > > >>> off' on it's own, or only needs a gentle tap at most. > > > >>> > > > >>> Btw - what Alex wrote recently about arc length determining > > > >>> current in wire-feed welders is also true for stick. The > > > >>> sound of bacon frying is the right kind of arc length to aim > > > >>> for. It's much easier to judge arc length by sound, than > > > >>> visually. > > > >>> Too long an arc = lower current = poor penetration. > > > >>> > > > >>> Good luck - and keep laying down those beads ! > > > >>> > > > >>> Colin > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --------------------------------- > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --------------------------------- > > > >> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7789|22|2005-05-02 18:19:59|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /RadiantBarrier8.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Space age insulation You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/RadiantBarrier8.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7790|7790|2005-05-02 20:22:54|jim_both|Tumble home for front of wheel house|Can snyone suggest a range for the amount of tumble home for the front of a reverse-angle wheel house? Thanks, Jim| 7791|7790|2005-05-02 20:42:51|Puck III|Re: Tumble home for front of wheel house|Hi Jim , have a look at many usefull examples you find in Photos in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ you may find what you like , the BSMS.jpg in there looks fine :-) a cheap mock up while building helps a lot hoping this helps Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Can snyone suggest a range for the amount of tumble home for the front > of a reverse-angle wheel house? > > Thanks, Jim | 7792|7711|2005-05-02 21:43:25|seeratlas|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|I knew i was missing something :) hehehe seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Seer , all your arguments are correct , my mistake : I forgot to > mention the special systems ( fast and easy to make again ) > that make it possible to open those doors under heeling & > wish hold everything securely in place when the weather go > wild . Even the bottles in the bar , we dont want to spoil a drop :-) > The only place where you could bang your head is while sitting > on the Lavac in a storm ; why sit when you can kneel ? > Hoping you still love a Joke :-) > I will post a pic as soon as I can . > > Old Ben > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Ben, > > Now I know for a fact you have a hell of a lot more experience at > this > > stuff than I, but surely you're not talking about the everyday > push > > open push close latches? No offense but I'm not entirely > confident > > those things would stay shut under the kind of conditions you > can > > encounter in the open ocean. I've had boats thrown either up > /down, > > sideways or some combination thereof 30 or forty feet, and > known some > > who rolled or even worse, pitchpoled. In a great many > accidents at > > sea, the ship isn't damaged but people inside get hurt by either > being > > tossed around and into things that have come loose or out of > > bins/drawers etc., or having said objects doing the flying > around > > until they reach "oneness" with a warm body. Either way, for > anything > > other than a day sailer, I think I would rather go with something > a > > bit more secure. "Batten down the hatches" could apply to > more than > > just the external openings on a boat. > > > > seer. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > Hi Paul , I used regular push to open & close kitchen hinges > > > with a build in springmechanism , ,when sprayed with WD 40 > > > once in a while they live rather long on any dry boat :-) > > > replacing them is fast and cheap ; you can paint or varnish > > > the doors , choose the mat finish over the shiny finish , > > > so you see the nailprints less and save on revarnishing . > > > Succes with your renovation and keep us posted about > > > how the new rig will perform , cause I am curious . > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > > wrote: > > > > Ben, > > > > > > > > The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > > > > > Puck III wrote: > > > > > > > > >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff > > > Folder > > > > >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it > realy > > > is : > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > > > > >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden > plank , > > > > >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > > > > >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > > > > >Hoping it's usefull > > > > > > > > > >Old Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7793|7790|2005-05-03 00:06:17|jim_both|Re: Tumble home for front of wheel house|Thanks Ben; It looks like about 16 degrees on BSMS.jpg Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Jim , have a look at many usefull examples you find in Photos > in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > you may find what you like , the BSMS.jpg in there looks fine :-) > a cheap mock up while building helps a lot > hoping this helps > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > > Can snyone suggest a range for the amount of tumble home > for the front > > of a reverse-angle wheel house? > > > > Thanks, Jim | 7794|7787|2005-05-03 03:23:07|edward_stoneuk|Re: Shady Business :-)|Ben, When folks discuss insulation one disadvantage given when using sheet insulation rather than sprayed foam is the difficulty of sealing around the sheet edges and where it crosses frames etc. This lack of sealing allows warm moisture laden air access to the uninsulated steel structure, where it is cooled below its dew point and the moisture condenses out leading to water running down the inside of the hull. How do you overcome this problem? Regards, Ted| 7795|7787|2005-05-03 05:58:12|Puck III|Re: Shady Business :-)|Ted , one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . Frameless Origami is ideal for sheet insulation , the basematerial is a developable surface . If one likes the extra foam insulation , spray it afther the sheets have been sealed . You can even add stifness to a deck or any sheet material by making a composite of all needed materials , even the plyformica for finishing an interior. This is NOT easy cause it has to be done with pressure , having build it and used it myself , I can of course repost a pic if asked for . ( This is a respons to a question by mjf107uk in post 7765 ) We also may not forget to include shielding the glass & translucent hatches . Personaly I use and I can highly recommend 3M , see http://tinyurl.com/2rogm that film is sealed with water :-) , stagering results . Regards, Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Ben, > When folks discuss insulation one disadvantage given when using sheet > insulation rather than sprayed foam is the difficulty of sealing > around the sheet edges and where it crosses frames etc. This lack of > sealing allows warm moisture laden air access to the uninsulated steel > structure, where it is cooled below its dew point and the moisture > condenses out leading to water running down the inside of the hull. > How do you overcome this problem? > Regards, > Ted | 7796|7711|2005-05-03 07:13:20|Puck III|Re: The " 5 minutes made furniture doors "|Seer , as long as you do not expect a pic of me kneeling I remain happy :-) hehehe Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I knew i was missing something :) hehehe > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Seer , all your arguments are correct , my mistake : I forgot to > > mention the special systems ( fast and easy to make again ) > > that make it possible to open those doors under heeling & > > wish hold everything securely in place when the weather go > > wild . Even the bottles in the bar , we dont want to spoil a drop :-) > > The only place where you could bang your head is while sitting > > on the Lavac in a storm ; why sit when you can kneel ? > > Hoping you still love a Joke :-) > > I will post a pic as soon as I can . > > > > Old Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > Now I know for a fact you have a hell of a lot more experience at > > this > > > stuff than I, but surely you're not talking about the everyday > > push > > > open push close latches? No offense but I'm not entirely > > confident > > > those things would stay shut under the kind of conditions you > > can > > > encounter in the open ocean. I've had boats thrown either up > > /down, > > > sideways or some combination thereof 30 or forty feet, and > > known some > > > who rolled or even worse, pitchpoled. In a great many > > accidents at > > > sea, the ship isn't damaged but people inside get hurt by either > > being > > > tossed around and into things that have come loose or out of > > > bins/drawers etc., or having said objects doing the flying > > around > > > until they reach "oneness" with a warm body. Either way, for > > anything > > > other than a day sailer, I think I would rather go with something > > a > > > bit more secure. "Batten down the hatches" could apply to > > more than > > > just the external openings on a boat. > > > > > > seer. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > > Hi Paul , I used regular push to open & close kitchen hinges > > > > with a build in springmechanism , ,when sprayed with WD 40 > > > > once in a while they live rather long on any dry boat :-) > > > > replacing them is fast and cheap ; you can paint or varnish > > > > the doors , choose the mat finish over the shiny finish , > > > > so you see the nailprints less and save on revarnishing . > > > > Succes with your renovation and keep us posted about > > > > how the new rig will perform , cause I am curious . > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Ben, > > > > > > > > > > The doors look great. Any info on the hinges? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Paul Thompson > > > > > www.sailingwithoutasound.com > > > > > > > > > > Puck III wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Hi all , a composite photo explains it all in the Ben's Stuff > > > > Folder > > > > > >in the Origamiboats 2 Group , see how easy and fast it > > realy > > > > is : > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/du94o : 5minutesmadedoors.jpg > > > > > >just cover the hole in the ply with a larger full wooden > > plank , > > > > > >rounded of with a " toupile " :-) > > > > > >A good pic sure is easyer than to many words . > > > > > >Hoping it's usefull > > > > > > > > > > > >Old Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7797|7787|2005-05-03 08:36:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: Shady Business :-)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Ted , > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did you seal it? Regards, Ted| 7798|7787|2005-05-03 09:30:02|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|We used sheets of 9 micron aluminium faced Polyshield 25mm thick - bonded to the fully painted hull and deck plate with Sikabond structural adhesive. In the overhead, an extra 5mm Polyshield goes on with the headliner. Joins (where unavoidable) were taped using the 42mm wide compatible self-adhesive foil tape which is reinforced with fibres. This foil tape stuff is sometimes very expensive unless bought in large rolls. The same tape is used over joins in the special sound barrier PU/composite material in the engine bay. Every panel of insulation is then sealed on its perimeter to the stringers/longitudinals or frames using Sikaflex Pro on an activated surface (Sikaflex 205 cleaner) or if you can obtain Iso Propyl alcohol, it is very close to the spec of 205 and one tenth the cost. Where a panel edge finishes on flat plate (eg below the LWL), the whole bare edge is treated with the Sikaflex Pro. You can paint the S Pro if you want to, but the paint will need to be flexible --- it is cosmetic treatment anyway. Mechanical protection in the overhead is polywhite headliner ply 3mm --- in other places where the insulation is not protected by the lining, (0.5mm SS sheet around the galley), 1mm HIPS is used, bonded to the insulation face with Sikabond. This is also perimeter sealed with the S Pro. A lot more work/time and probably more expensive than a foam sprayed system, but it is what we decided for various reasons. I suspect that moisture in liquid or vapour will not get into the system. The system works very well in reducing heat flow into the boat, it should work as well when the flow direction is reversed - we should be so lucky! An unavoidable consequence of insulating the underside of the deck is a steep increase in deck surface temperature until the AquaDeck system goes on. The adhesive used inside should be chosen to handle at least 70 C (in our part of the world) until the external cork composite is in place. Whilst Sika is mentioned many times, there are a few other brands of roughly equivalent performance, I haven't used them. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:06 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Ted , > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did you seal it? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 7799|7787|2005-05-03 09:53:17|Puck III|Re: Shady Business :-)|with adhesives , Ted , 3M adhesives . I called the guys from 3M Holland and submitted the problem , giving them the technical particulars of the insulation sheets I wanted to seal , and on what kinda surface . They where extreemly helpfull and a special team did the first applying test , the results where very positive and now it's used in production. The products offered ( the adhesive used in production is sprayed on , and irrelevant in this discussion except if you are a professional builder , but you could consider subcontracting the work to professionals ) adhesives , sealers and also the insulation sheets & their composition change all the time , ( prices keep lowering ) I suggest the best thing to do is to see whats available in your area , compare prices and if you have any doughts : you could visit a camping outlet , bye some sheets , and do some testing , so you can see for yourself and decide what you want to use in your particular situation . Washing and cleaning ( with the help of usual cleaning products for windows , in case you hesitate ask help from any lady willing to help with advise ) was the hardest part before using the 3M safetyfilm wish was sealed with water using a little household handspray. Making the composite as layed out previously aint that easy and is it usefull in your particular situation ? Try to be a bit more specific by telling us par example what boat you are building , in what material , how the framing is ( if their is any ) , and what options you want to consider . There is a good solution for all problems that can occur . Hoping this is more helpfull for you Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Ted , > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did you > seal it? > > Regards, > Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Ted , > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > Frameless Origami is ideal for sheet insulation , the > basematerial is a developable surface . > > If one likes the extra foam insulation , spray it afther > the sheets have been sealed . > > You can even add stifness to a deck or any sheet material > by making a composite of all needed materials , even > the plyformica for finishing an interior. > This is NOT easy cause it has to be done with pressure , > having build it and used it myself , I can of course repost > a pic if asked for . ( This is a respons to a question by > mjf107uk in post 7765 ) > > We also may not forget to include shielding the glass & > translucent hatches . Personaly I use and I can highly > recommend 3M , see http://tinyurl.com/2rogm > that film is sealed with water :-) , stagering results . > > Regards, > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Ben, > > When folks discuss insulation one disadvantage given when > using sheet > > insulation rather than sprayed foam is the difficulty of sealing > > around the sheet edges and where it crosses frames etc. This > lack of > > sealing allows warm moisture laden air access to the > uninsulated steel > > structure, where it is cooled below its dew point and the > moisture > > condenses out leading to water running down the inside of the > hull. > > How do you overcome this problem? > > Regards, > > Ted | 7800|7787|2005-05-03 10:15:35|Puck III|Re: Shady Business :-)|Hi , I have an important question if I may ? Are you happy with the results ? Personally I am very happy , and I am convinced the insulation sheets , combined with the Glas Safety & Sun Barrier make my life on board much more confortable. I have not made the Bimini Shade in Silver Tarp yet , but an aluminum silver safety blanket on top of the cotton one I use , made an incredible difference on a very hot day . Thanks in advance for your assesment and opinion. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > We used sheets of 9 micron aluminium faced Polyshield 25mm thick - bonded to > the fully painted hull and deck plate with Sikabond structural adhesive. In > the overhead, an extra 5mm Polyshield goes on with the headliner. > Joins (where unavoidable) were taped using the 42mm wide compatible > self-adhesive foil tape which is reinforced with fibres. > This foil tape stuff is sometimes very expensive unless bought in large > rolls. The same tape is used over joins in the special sound barrier > PU/composite material in the engine bay. > Every panel of insulation is then sealed on its perimeter to the > stringers/longitudinals or frames using Sikaflex Pro on an activated surface > (Sikaflex 205 cleaner) or if you can obtain Iso Propyl alcohol, it is very > close to the spec of 205 and one tenth the cost. > Where a panel edge finishes on flat plate (eg below the LWL), the whole bare > edge is treated with the Sikaflex Pro. > You can paint the S Pro if you want to, but the paint will need to be > flexible --- it is cosmetic treatment anyway. > Mechanical protection in the overhead is polywhite headliner ply 3mm --- in > other places where the insulation is not protected by the lining, (0.5mm SS > sheet around the galley), 1mm HIPS is used, bonded to the insulation face > with Sikabond. This is also perimeter sealed with the S Pro. > A lot more work/time and probably more expensive than a foam sprayed system, > but it is what we decided for various reasons. > I suspect that moisture in liquid or vapour will not get into the system. > The system works very well in reducing heat flow into the boat, it should > work as well when the flow direction is reversed - we should be so lucky! > An unavoidable consequence of insulating the underside of the deck is a > steep increase in deck surface temperature until the AquaDeck system goes > on. The adhesive used inside should be chosen to handle at least 70 C (in > our part of the world) until the external cork composite is in place. > Whilst Sika is mentioned many times, there are a few other brands of roughly > equivalent performance, I haven't used them. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:06 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Ted , > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did you > seal it? > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 7801|7787|2005-05-03 10:15:38|seeratlas|Re: Shady Business :-)|70 C? So much for the outside BBQ, just lay the shrimp on the deck!!. OUCH! Must be nuts with an aluminum deck. My main question about using rigid foam panels is that one of the 'strengths' (as I understand it from Brent) is that the origami method allows some degree of flex in the hull. While this results in the ability to take substantial impacts without breaching the integrity of the hull, this movement seems to me to cause a problem of separating the foam panels from the hull. The resulting gaps could prove disastrous. The only solution it seems to me, is to spray the entire interior with some kind of barrier coat/adhesive, and if you're going to do that, might as well just spray in the foam, which in itself is a heck of an adhesive. Maybe a possible solution is to spray to an acceptable depth then apply your panels, or Ben's sheeting, and then overspray with some kind of flexible sealant or more foam. This might provide the ultimate 'R" factor for extreme conditions, while ensuring a homogenous interior seal. I have read of some hull failures reportedly caused by vapor getting behind foam panels so I would advise severe caution. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > We used sheets of 9 micron aluminium faced Polyshield 25mm thick - bonded to > the fully painted hull and deck plate with Sikabond structural adhesive. In > the overhead, an extra 5mm Polyshield goes on with the headliner. > Joins (where unavoidable) were taped using the 42mm wide compatible > self-adhesive foil tape which is reinforced with fibres. > This foil tape stuff is sometimes very expensive unless bought in large > rolls. The same tape is used over joins in the special sound barrier > PU/composite material in the engine bay. > Every panel of insulation is then sealed on its perimeter to the > stringers/longitudinals or frames using Sikaflex Pro on an activated surface > (Sikaflex 205 cleaner) or if you can obtain Iso Propyl alcohol, it is very > close to the spec of 205 and one tenth the cost. > Where a panel edge finishes on flat plate (eg below the LWL), the whole bare > edge is treated with the Sikaflex Pro. > You can paint the S Pro if you want to, but the paint will need to be > flexible --- it is cosmetic treatment anyway. > Mechanical protection in the overhead is polywhite headliner ply 3mm --- in > other places where the insulation is not protected by the lining, (0.5mm SS > sheet around the galley), 1mm HIPS is used, bonded to the insulation face > with Sikabond. This is also perimeter sealed with the S Pro. > A lot more work/time and probably more expensive than a foam sprayed system, > but it is what we decided for various reasons. > I suspect that moisture in liquid or vapour will not get into the system. > The system works very well in reducing heat flow into the boat, it should > work as well when the flow direction is reversed - we should be so lucky! > An unavoidable consequence of insulating the underside of the deck is a > steep increase in deck surface temperature until the AquaDeck system goes > on. The adhesive used inside should be chosen to handle at least 70 C (in > our part of the world) until the external cork composite is in place. > Whilst Sika is mentioned many times, there are a few other brands of roughly > equivalent performance, I haven't used them. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:06 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Ted , > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did you > seal it? > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 7802|7787|2005-05-03 10:28:34|seeratlas|Re: Shady Business :-)|Ben, (and our man from downunder:), Tho I see where you could have any thickness you wanted, what thickness of insulation did you end up with? What do you estimate the finished 'R' value at? My own plan is to go in just before the sprayers, and CAREFULL, apply by hand a suitable insulating sealant in the hard to reach, but critical areas around the 'framing' in the floors, edges adjacent to hatches, etc. and anywhere there is a low corner or potential water/vapor trap problem. Then have the guys come in and spray the entire interior. Your comments have made me consider some supplemental insulation sheeting, I've used those "space blankets" and you're right, they do an amazing job. I could see where they might prove very useful under the deck in the tropics, or as just a big kickup in R in general. Also make a helluva awning, but is there a brand you've found that can handle the UV? Seems the first ones I had went to pieces in a hurry. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > with adhesives , Ted , 3M adhesives . > I called the guys from 3M Holland and > submitted the problem , giving them the technical > particulars of the insulation sheets I wanted to seal , > and on what kinda surface . > > They where extreemly helpfull and a special team did > the first applying test , the results where very positive > and now it's used in production. > > The products offered ( the adhesive used in production > is sprayed on , and irrelevant in this discussion except > if you are a professional builder , but you could consider > subcontracting the work to professionals ) > adhesives , sealers and also the insulation sheets & their > composition change all the time , ( prices keep lowering ) > > I suggest the best thing to do is to see whats available > in your area , compare prices and if you have any doughts : > you could visit a camping outlet , bye some sheets , > and do some testing , so you can see for yourself and > decide what you want to use in your particular situation . > > Washing and cleaning ( with the help of usual cleaning > products for windows , in case you hesitate ask help > from any lady willing to help with advise ) was the > hardest part before using the 3M safetyfilm wish was > sealed with water using a little household handspray. > > Making the composite as layed out previously aint > that easy and is it usefull in your particular situation ? > Try to be a bit more specific by telling us par example > what boat you are building , in what material , how > the framing is ( if their is any ) , and what options you > want to consider . There is a good solution for all > problems that can occur . > > Hoping this is more helpfull for you > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > Ted , > > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > > > > That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did > you > > seal it? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > Ted , > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > > Frameless Origami is ideal for sheet insulation , the > > basematerial is a developable surface . > > > > If one likes the extra foam insulation , spray it afther > > the sheets have been sealed . > > > > You can even add stifness to a deck or any sheet material > > by making a composite of all needed materials , even > > the plyformica for finishing an interior. > > This is NOT easy cause it has to be done with pressure , > > having build it and used it myself , I can of course repost > > a pic if asked for . ( This is a respons to a question by > > mjf107uk in post 7765 ) > > > > We also may not forget to include shielding the glass & > > translucent hatches . Personaly I use and I can highly > > recommend 3M , see http://tinyurl.com/2rogm > > that film is sealed with water :-) , stagering results . > > > > Regards, > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > When folks discuss insulation one disadvantage given when > > using sheet > > > insulation rather than sprayed foam is the difficulty of sealing > > > around the sheet edges and where it crosses frames etc. > This > > lack of > > > sealing allows warm moisture laden air access to the > > uninsulated steel > > > structure, where it is cooled below its dew point and the > > moisture > > > condenses out leading to water running down the inside of > the > > hull. > > > How do you overcome this problem? > > > Regards, > > > Ted | 7803|7787|2005-05-03 10:48:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Shady Business :-)|Thanks for your reply Ben. Did you write this about Radiant Energy Barrier or were you copying it from someone else? I had assumed you wrote it and could advise what you had used rather than route us to 3M. I am building a steel boat with some angle and some flat frames up to 60 mm deep. Here and on the Metal Boat Society's Forum most folks prefer blown foam because it seals better. I was interested in your experience with the sheet insulation but could you be a bit more specific by telling us par example as to the products you actually used when you installed it yourself on a 29 ft glass sailboat. Regards, Ted Radiant Energy Barrier is a NASA spinoff technology material > > that reflects up to 97% of all radiant ( infrared ) energy. > > > > Radiant Energy Barrier insulation materials are the latest > > in insulation materials , well tested on boats and now on > > offer for a decent price , even in small quantities. > > > > A simple Silver Tarp Bimin Top cover stops the Sun :-) > > > > The Radiant Energy Barrier material STOP's heat & cold , > > and the extra insulation between layers eliminates > > heat & cold bridges , it is not just slowing down de transfer > rate. > > > > Cheap , light , easy to install ( installed it myself on a 29 ft > glass > > sailboat , and it works even better on steel and aluminum > > boats ) , I see no reason to stay with the spray foam. | 7804|22|2005-05-03 10:52:15|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Comporoofcut1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : foam can stiffen flimsy sheetmaterial :-) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Comporoofcut1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7805|22|2005-05-03 10:53:38|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /12mmAluWeldPic1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : not very flexible at all - STRONGAL :-) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/12mmAluWeldPic1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7806|7787|2005-05-03 10:57:06|edward_stoneuk|Re: Shady Business :-)|Thanks for the info Terry. Does it every get cool enough for condensation where your boat is? I used to live in the Solomon Islands which is, I think, on a similar latitude to Darwin. I cannot remember if there was ever condensation at sea level or not. If there isn't then I guess a vapour barrier on the insulation is not so important. Regards, Ted| 7807|7787|2005-05-03 12:08:21|Puck III|Re: Shady Business :-)|Seer the website for Tarman , who claims to run a " Shady Business " is : http://www.tarpman.bigstep.com/ just push for Silver Tarp and see what's on offer . If I were you ( lucky you , you are not me , cause all that needs to be stiff became flimsy , and all that needs to be flimsy became stiff lately :-) , I would not be happy unless I sealed even the most simple alusheetmaterial , 1 simple layer makes already a big difference (excluding eventualy the bildges ) directly to the hull ; why not by hand at your own pace ? Building my mobile office see : http://tinyurl.com/62fmo a prototype I designed for a campingcar manufacturer , I used alusheeting under the wood above the floor , 3 layer alusheeting with plastic buble material , in between for the sides , and a composite of closed foam panels & ply with spray foam as an adhesive for the roof . see the " comporoofcut " posted for your info in files. The multilayer used for the side was the most effective . Overnighting in sub zero never was a problem , no condens what so ever . Boats that drye out during tides can encounter the same problems ( its much warmer in the water :-) Yes , foam can stiffen flimsy sheet material and withstand torturing ( the Ducato Fiat is a light monostructure that flexes a lot , and no problems occured ) Not much flexibility in the Strongal framless alu pic I posted in Files ( just have a look at it cause I will remove it soon cause all my pics take up to much space ) All I can say from personnal experience is that the Radient Energy Barrier sheets work better than I ever tought possible. I use this post to respond to Ted from the UK in the same message : Sure Ted I copy English text and post pics I take on the net , that's what a designer builder does all day long :-) Stealing with his eyes any good idea and model he sees , buying new materials and testing them out , to see if things work as advertised , and when things work he can recommend them to customers and friends :-) Materials change very quickly , I cant remember how many layers where in the Space sheets with a vinyl grey finish on one side wish I used to insulate a Gassfiber boat , all I remember is I cleaned the hull , made paper paterns , cut the sheets to the same measurments , pushed adhesive band ( the same as used in a bathroom to fix tiles ) against the glass hull , finished of all sides of the sheetpatterns with gray ducktape and finaly pushed the small matelasses against the glassfiber wall so they became firmly attachted and give me fantastic insulation for a small cost . The job was done in half a day , and when the sheets will have to be replaced one day for sure , it will be quick , easy & cheap. Ted I realy hope to have satisfied your curiosity this time cause all that's interesting is realy to know the sheets work on GRP hulls to :-) Cheers to all --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Ben, (and our man from downunder:), > > Tho I see where you could have any thickness you wanted, > what thickness of insulation did you end up with? What do you estimate > the finished 'R' value at? > > My own plan is to go in just before the sprayers, and CAREFULL, apply > by hand a suitable insulating sealant in the hard to reach, but > critical areas around the 'framing' in the floors, edges adjacent to > hatches, etc. and anywhere there is a low corner or potential > water/vapor trap problem. Then have the guys come in and spray the > entire interior. Your comments have made me consider some > supplemental insulation sheeting, I've used those "space blankets" and > you're right, they do an amazing job. I could see where they might > prove very useful under the deck in the tropics, or as just a big > kickup in R in general. > Also make a helluva awning, but is there a brand you've found that can > handle the UV? Seems the first ones I had went to pieces in a hurry. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > with adhesives , Ted , 3M adhesives . > > I called the guys from 3M Holland and > > submitted the problem , giving them the technical > > particulars of the insulation sheets I wanted to seal , > > and on what kinda surface . > > > > They where extreemly helpfull and a special team did > > the first applying test , the results where very positive > > and now it's used in production. > > > > The products offered ( the adhesive used in production > > is sprayed on , and irrelevant in this discussion except > > if you are a professional builder , but you could consider > > subcontracting the work to professionals ) > > adhesives , sealers and also the insulation sheets & their > > composition change all the time , ( prices keep lowering ) > > > > I suggest the best thing to do is to see whats available > > in your area , compare prices and if you have any doughts : > > you could visit a camping outlet , bye some sheets , > > and do some testing , so you can see for yourself and > > decide what you want to use in your particular situation . > > > > Washing and cleaning ( with the help of usual cleaning > > products for windows , in case you hesitate ask help > > from any lady willing to help with advise ) was the > > hardest part before using the 3M safetyfilm wish was > > sealed with water using a little household handspray. > > > > Making the composite as layed out previously aint > > that easy and is it usefull in your particular situation ? > > Try to be a bit more specific by telling us par example > > what boat you are building , in what material , how > > the framing is ( if their is any ) , and what options you > > want to consider . There is a good solution for all > > problems that can occur . > > > > Hoping this is more helpfull for you > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > > Ted , > > > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > > > > > > > That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did > > you > > > seal it? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > Ted , > > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > > > > Frameless Origami is ideal for sheet insulation , the > > > basematerial is a developable surface . > > > > > > If one likes the extra foam insulation , spray it afther > > > the sheets have been sealed . > > > > > > You can even add stifness to a deck or any sheet material > > > by making a composite of all needed materials , even > > > the plyformica for finishing an interior. > > > This is NOT easy cause it has to be done with pressure , > > > having build it and used it myself , I can of course repost > > > a pic if asked for . ( This is a respons to a question by > > > mjf107uk in post 7765 ) > > > > > > We also may not forget to include shielding the glass & > > > translucent hatches . Personaly I use and I can highly > > > recommend 3M , see http://tinyurl.com/2rogm > > > that film is sealed with water :-) , stagering results . > > > > > > Regards, > > > Old Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > Ben, > > > > When folks discuss insulation one disadvantage given when > > > using sheet > > > > insulation rather than sprayed foam is the difficulty of sealing > > > > around the sheet edges and where it crosses frames etc. > > This > > > lack of > > > > sealing allows warm moisture laden air access to the > > > uninsulated steel > > > > structure, where it is cooled below its dew point and the > > > moisture > > > > condenses out leading to water running down the inside of > > the > > > hull. > > > > How do you overcome this problem? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted | 7808|7808|2005-05-03 14:05:45|edward_stoneuk|Bilge keel tank sumps|Hi all, I have posted a photo of the sump in one of my bilge keel fuel tanks in the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ photo section under Ted & Fiona's Boat Bits. There is also a photo of a slag chipping dagger made from a bandsaw blade inserted in a zip cut slot in the end of a bit of flat bar. It is very useful for getting the last little bits of slag out of far away places. Regards, Ted| 7809|7809|2005-05-04 02:41:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|origami magic|Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and converted to triple chine origami. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now under construction in our yard. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start construction on one or both over the summer. At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, dismastings, and sinkings. One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little or no room to drag. We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in mind. The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be more fun when out on the water. The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to building boats that look like production boats, which have very different economics than origami. Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both boats with the same given interior. For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its own privacy. Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., etc., which is what takes the time. I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats they really want. I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then follow with the acid wash. I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel mad because of Blyth and British Steel. With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down dramatically in price. Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 US as is, where is. No insurance. I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it span. Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family and friends aboard, I feel the same. As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I want. My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest of your life you will have to go cruising. I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing to contact me should email me direct at ge@.... Greg Elliott PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7810|7809|2005-05-04 11:59:20|Gerd|Re: origami magic|Good to see you back, Greg, and glad you're busy and working on new boats and projects - I already started wondering whatever happened to you ;-) (I see you started using Rhino & Phaser?) Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7811|7809|2005-05-04 11:59:43|seeratlas|Re: origami magic|Good to hear from you:) I had wondered where you got off too:)/ I know you favor alloy over all comers, but I still come back to the matter of abrasion on a rock or reef, and the potential for alarmingly fast corrosive/electrolytical problems with the alloy hull in seawater. Lastly, the problem of trying to repair any damage or make welding modifications to the hull or gear 'en route' give me pause. I guess all of those problems are solvable, but I once saw a near million dollar alloy yacht 'just barely' scrape a concrete warf as she was pulling away. The damage was in the tens of thousands of dollars...that picture keeps popping into my mind everytime I think about alloy. You've made the arguments for alloy about as well as they can be made, and perhaps I'm just overly pessimistic, but I do know one thing first hand. I happen to own an aluminum bodied Range Rover. You don't want to know what kind of prices I get quoted for repairing the typical parking lot dings... I will be taking a look at your designs and your suggestions regarding building in Asia are well taken, especially if you can find a qualified crew (other than the Kiwis and Aussies who know how to build in alloy perhaps better than anyone but are unlikely to work for $5.oo a day :). Food for thought :) One thing about your 50 plus footers tho, without a lot of hands, that can be a lot of boat. I singlehanded a 54 sloop for something over 11 years, and my next boat is going to be smaller, not larger. Sure most people can handle it in good weather in a calm sea, but that's not the conditions I'd advise planning around. At that size you're talking in excess of 1400 sq. ft. of sail or so, that can be a LOT in a blow. Otoh, I'm not quite ready to step down to a 36, or even a 40, but we'll see :) Lastly, no argument on the 'get out there'...:) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. > > Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and converted to triple chine origami. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now under construction in our yard. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start construction on one or both over the summer. > > At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, dismastings, and sinkings. > > One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > > While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little or no room to drag. > > We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. > > The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in mind. > > The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be more fun when out on the water. > > The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to building boats that look like production boats, which have very different economics than origami. > > Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. > > It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both boats with the same given interior. > > For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its own privacy. > > Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., etc., which is what takes the time. > > I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats they really want. > > I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then follow with the acid wash. > > I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > > While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > > This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. > > While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down dramatically in price. > > Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > > One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 US as is, where is. No insurance. > > I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. > > Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it span. > > Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. > > Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. > > It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I want. > > My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest of your life you will have to go cruising. > > I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > > Greg Elliott > > PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7812|7787|2005-05-04 12:00:25|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|I shall have to do an additional calculation for the total thickness of the composite system. The Polyshield is closed cell (really closed and permanent? --- unlike sprayed PU foam) foam with a thermally bonded aluminium vapour barrier. Will post some details when I can remember to bring them home. Formshield, Polyshield, K-Cell , Ecoflex - whatever, the physical constants of the foam are almost identical in all cases. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 23:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) Ben, (and our man from downunder:), Tho I see where you could have any thickness you wanted, what thickness of insulation did you end up with? What do you estimate the finished 'R' value at?| 7813|7787|2005-05-04 12:01:02|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|Old Ben, from old Terry, Yes, so far. Certainly the heat flux is now at a rate which enables us to fit-out whereas before, the radiant heat from the underside of the deck (painted both sides in light colours) was very hard to handle in the tropical heat, even with a large axial fan exhausting the entire interior. When all of the sole pieces (19mm ply + 3.2mm of Comcork "Easy Walk") and furnishings are finally in place, we expect a further improvement in overall comfort. Since the heat flow and sensible temperature issues are nearly equivalent directionally (excepting condensation in the cold), we expect adequate performance in higher latitudes. There will be almost nil exposure of painted metal inside above LWL. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Puck III Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 23:41 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) Hi , I have an important question if I may ? Are you happy with the results ? Personally I am very happy , and I am convinced the insulation sheets , combined with the Glas Safety & Sun Barrier make my life on board much more confortable. I have not made the Bimini Shade in Silver Tarp yet , but an aluminum silver safety blanket on top of the cotton one I use , made an incredible difference on a very hot day . Thanks in advance for your assesment and opinion. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > We used sheets of 9 micron aluminium faced Polyshield 25mm thick - bonded to > the fully painted hull and deck plate with Sikabond structural adhesive. In > the overhead, an extra 5mm Polyshield goes on with the headliner. > Joins (where unavoidable) were taped using the 42mm wide compatible > self-adhesive foil tape which is reinforced with fibres. > This foil tape stuff is sometimes very expensive unless bought in large > rolls. The same tape is used over joins in the special sound barrier > PU/composite material in the engine bay. > Every panel of insulation is then sealed on its perimeter to the > stringers/longitudinals or frames using Sikaflex Pro on an activated surface > (Sikaflex 205 cleaner) or if you can obtain Iso Propyl alcohol, it is very > close to the spec of 205 and one tenth the cost. > Where a panel edge finishes on flat plate (eg below the LWL), the whole bare > edge is treated with the Sikaflex Pro. > You can paint the S Pro if you want to, but the paint will need to be > flexible --- it is cosmetic treatment anyway. > Mechanical protection in the overhead is polywhite headliner ply 3mm --- in > other places where the insulation is not protected by the lining, (0.5mm SS > sheet around the galley), 1mm HIPS is used, bonded to the insulation face > with Sikabond. This is also perimeter sealed with the S Pro. > A lot more work/time and probably more expensive than a foam sprayed system, > but it is what we decided for various reasons. > I suspect that moisture in liquid or vapour will not get into the system. > The system works very well in reducing heat flow into the boat, it should > work as well when the flow direction is reversed - we should be so lucky! > An unavoidable consequence of insulating the underside of the deck is a > steep increase in deck surface temperature until the AquaDeck system goes > on. The adhesive used inside should be chosen to handle at least 70 C (in > our part of the world) until the external cork composite is in place. > Whilst Sika is mentioned many times, there are a few other brands of roughly > equivalent performance, I haven't used them. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 22:06 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Ted , > > one can overcome the problems you mentioned , due to > > lack of sealing , by correctly good sealing . > > 3M is always willing to give advise and assistance . > > > That is stating the obvious Ben, but not very helpful. How did you > seal it? > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7814|7787|2005-05-04 12:01:15|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|Ted, Apart from mould, which is all pervasive, as you would have experienced in the Solomons, there are no internal condensation issues in our area, and I think that applies to anyone up/down to the 23.5 lat., with the exceptions that always apply: If one does not ventilate an inhabited space, there will be dripping when the approach to the dew point is close. We anticipate a range of activity to higher latitudes and the system will not be as good as a 50mm foam job --- I can't see any coating /insulation or any combination of coatings that will beat that deal, but --- with sensible arrangements wrt ventilation, I think the system will suffice. I always remember the stalactites inside the VW Kombi kastenwagen in 1972 in Deutschland --- that is until I glued 4mm of polystyrene sheet to the underside of the roof and its bits, after that we had a dry vehicle. The kids were drier but they did miss looking at those frozen things. Vapour barrier is intrinsic with the system, but I usually go for belt and braces, and the edge sealing which I detailed is in addition to the panels having been pressed and held mechanically onto adhesive patterns which produced a waterproof edge bond in any case. It was a slow and tedious process, especially the measuring and cutting, but unfortunately (or otherwise), I think if the job is worth doing, it's worth doing well. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:27 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) Thanks for the info Terry. Does it every get cool enough for condensation where your boat is? I used to live in the Solomon Islands which is, I think, on a similar latitude to Darwin. I cannot remember if there was ever condensation at sea level or not. If there isn't then I guess a vapour barrier on the insulation is not so important. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 7815|7809|2005-05-05 12:51:17|dreemer1962|Re: origami magic|Hi Greg Nice to see that you like long, narrow, low drag boats, my favourite type. As I already bored every one to death talking about them last year and more recently, this time I won't talk, I'll just point to some line drawings and renderings in the files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/long%2C%20narrow% 20boats/ After years of thinking about it I finally started to design a boat which I have in mind. It's far from finished but basic 3D model is done and I have some numbers: LOA = 15 m Beam = 3.10 m Displ = 10 tons wetted surface 37 m2 whole (hull) surf. area 74 m2 sail area working +/- 55 m2, around 80 - 90 m2 max in light airs "…the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing…" (To shorten the distance to the shore). Maybe it's because most dinghies are short and fat and consequently they are pigs to row. Rowing is pleasure in a good rowing boat. Make it about for times as long as wide, keep the stern above the water and she will be easy to row and she will glide with respectable speed. By the time outboard engine is muscled in its place and started, you can row considerable distance, without the smell, noise and vibration of the engine. If there isn't enough space on the deck for the long dinghy, (on the most boats there isn't), make the nesting one in 2 or 3 pices. Putting it together is a hassle, I know, but dragging outboard and gas around is even worse. Milan > Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. > > Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and converted to triple chine origami. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now under construction in our yard. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start construction on one or both over the summer. > > At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, dismastings, and sinkings. > > One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > > While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little or no room to drag. > > We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. > > The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in mind. > > The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be more fun when out on the water. > > The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to building boats that look like production boats, which have very different economics than origami. > > Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. > > It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both boats with the same given interior. > > For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its own privacy. > > Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., etc., which is what takes the time. > > I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats they really want. > > I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then follow with the acid wash. > > I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > > While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > > This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. > > While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down dramatically in price. > > Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > > One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 US as is, where is. No insurance. > > I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. > > Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it span. > > Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. > > Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. > > It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I want. > > My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest of your life you will have to go cruising. > > I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > > Greg Elliott > > PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7816|7809|2005-05-05 12:51:30|Henri Naths|Re: origami magic|Greg, Gad to see you back, none to worse for the wear I hope. Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 04 May, 2005 12:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] origami magic > > Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to > Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating > activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. > > Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey > 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired by George > Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and converted to > triple chine origami. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now > under construction in our yard. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start > construction on one or both over the summer. > > At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami relief. Quite > a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in the disaster. The > common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow water. Those boats > anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. Those in less than 30 > feet were not, suffering extensive damage, dismastings, and sinkings. > > One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important pieces of > safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a result, he is never > tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few strokes on the oars. He > recalled a story he read as a boy of one of the early explorers losing his > entire fleet when anchored in a shallow bay and as a result he never > anchors shallow. > > While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is rarely > a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope to equal > the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While Tsunamis may > be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal bores and freak waves > do occur with disastrous consequences. Even squalls can spell disaster if > you are anchored close in, with little or no room to drag. > > We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to a > planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure location, > and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving the Bones and > risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The Bones weathered the > Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising > Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by the > similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a great deal in > his book that can be directly applied to Origami. Previously I had not > studied Dashew, because his boats were for a different budget. However, > he addresses the question of build/buy with a great deal of candor, and > his ideas directly apply to origami. > > The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple formula: > Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) by the foot. > Everyone contemplating building should keep this in mind. > > The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons displacement. > One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being beamier and deeper > than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same to build. The 40 > footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it will be slower and > generally less capable under sail and power. Should you sell the boats, > the 50 footer will almost always fetch a better price than the 40, and > while you own it, the 50 will likely be more fun when out on the water. > > The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, lean, > light boats without spending much more time than to build a short, squat, > heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to building boats that > look like production boats, which have very different economics than > origami. > > Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a length, and > then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, resulting in an > expensive boat that performs poorly. A better approach is to start with > what you want to put inside the boat, design a simple interior layout to > hold this equipment, and then build the longest waterline hull you can > afford to accommodate this. > > It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, with 5 > feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than to have a 50 > foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try and cram a bigger > boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up fantastically. For a given > interior, it will almost always be simpler to fit it inside a long, lean > 50 footer than a short, squat 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes > the most time to finish, the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long > as you build both boats with the same given interior. > > For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double berth. > In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another down the > hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull you likely don't > have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up somewhere. Most > likely trying to fit the head across from the galley, with the resultant > problems of noise and smell. Much simpler and better to build them down > the hull, with each area getting its own privacy. > > Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, the > simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. Normally, when > you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up exponentially with length > due to the increased complexity. However, with origami, it is in many > ways easier to build bigger boats than smaller ones, because there is more > room in which to work. A longer hull is just not that much extra work. > No matter how long the hull, you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, > engine mounts, etc., etc., which is what takes the time. > > I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami > technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building > to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to meet with a > number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over the years. They > are all building long, lean boats. These are all long time, very > experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not one of them is > building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget boats, rather a > reflection that waterline is an asset when you are not tied to the dock. > They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats > they really want. > > I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy cat. > While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the > waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a great > problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing aboard used > a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate primer, high build > epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is not required to prepare > alloy for painting, and for many reasons should be avoided. At the very > most, you simply prepare heavily oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as > you would for welding, then follow with the acid wash. > > I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, > offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost > yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with > Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines > are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of > Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what > it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home > builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior > for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North > America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that > price. > > While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, > hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version > of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems > aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to > producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made > against the boat was that it was steel. > > This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, > hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without > maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to building the > rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and look at the steel > boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard and are religious > about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a steel boat ends up > looking like a steel boat, with the negative impact on resale value. This > often makes it very economical to buy used steel boats, but often poor > economics to build new boats in steel. The only exception I know of is > England, where they are steel mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia > are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no > more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors > are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from > the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to > building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in > the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, > maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small > ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. > > While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the > alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of > better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and > did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable > frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 > amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I > was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big > lie in any rating. Keep an eye open, like power washers, welding machine > may be coming down dramatically in price. > > Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have built > water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are going to > use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have ceramic > pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of steel as it runs > and make short work of the membrane. > > One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior > bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making the > boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof bulkheads. If the > boat is long and lean, rather than short and beamy, they are practical. > While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin 52 at the yacht club for sale. > Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning the boat was on the bottom. A > fitting had failed and the pumps were unable to keep up. As it sank, the > boat was pulled under the dock by its mooring lines. Now the boat was a > liability, as raising it could sweep away the dock. The best offer the > owner could get was $10,000 US as is, where is. No insurance. > > I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the boat > only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I know of at > least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it would have been > a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with > attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your > chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as > compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. > > Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami > construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified > set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. > However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with > similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker > than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat > technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to > run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely > proportional to the square of it span. > > Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the > frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run > transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide > only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from > installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to > install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, > reducing the span length. > > Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In > general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. > Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. > Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat > virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to > girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural > bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if > these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. > > It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we should > always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There is no need > to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of someone's life > offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over and call AAA if > something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a very limited sample > of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly strong. Indeed, with 30 > years offshore experience and many boats to his credit, Dashew recommends > that offshore boats should significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years > offshore sailing with family and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving > the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first went offshore > I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years sailing with my family. > I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay the bills, raised two children > afloat, and had a blast. Along the way we paid off the house and the boat > and ended up with rental income and money in the bank. The house now pays > us a monthly income and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I > want, where I want. > > My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of > what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or > if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will > simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. Don't waste > your time. They haven't figured out how to do it, how to cruise offshore > for years at a time as we did. Every minute you spend reading their email > is one less minute in the rest of your life you will have to go cruising. > > I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site > http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing to contact me > should email me direct at ge@.... > > Greg Elliott > > PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right now. > They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand US. Way > less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There are no > buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be cruised in Asia > with little or no work, where the cost of living is almost zero. With > some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and sold for about twice > the purchase price. If you want to go cruising there is unlikely to be a > better opportunity. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7817|7787|2005-05-05 12:51:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Shady Business :-)|Terry, Yes I remember the mould. We had light bulbs in the bottom of the wardrobes to stop clothes going mouldy. Toes went mouldy unless one wore sandels or flipflops. Ears got infected after swimming. Insect bites became infected as did cuts and scratches unless one was very careful. Used a lot of Canestan and Tetracycline ointment. All part of tropic life. Mould is a good reason not to have tightly fitting cupboard doors in a boat. Regards, Ted| 7818|7787|2005-05-05 12:51:43|jim_both|Re: Shady Business :-)|Hi Terry; When you went through the various systems you might use for condensation/temperature control inside your boat, I was wondering if you considered using any of the ceramic products such as Supertherm or ceramic bead additives in combination with polyshield to reduce condensation? Cheers, Jim| 7819|7809|2005-05-05 12:51:53|dreemer1962|Re: origami magic|Hi Greg Nice to see that you like long, narrow, low drag boats, my favourite type. As I already bored every one to death talking about them last year and more recently, this time I won't talk, I'll just point to some line drawings and renderings in the files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/long%2C%20narrow% 20boats/ After years of thinking about it I finally started to design a boat which I have in mind. It's far from finished but basic 3D model is done and I have some numbers: LOA = 15 m Beam = 3.10 m Displ = 10 tons wetted surface 37 m2 whole (hull) surf. area 74 m2 sail area working +/- 55 m2, around 80 - 90 m2 max in light airs "…the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing…" (To shorten the distance to the shore). Maybe it's because most dinghies are short and fat and consequently they are pigs to row. Rowing is pleasure in a good rowing boat. Make it about for times as long as wide, keep the stern above the water and she will be easy to row and will glide with respectable speed. By the time outboard engine is muscled in its place and started, you can row considerable distance, without the smell, noise and vibration of the engine. If there isn't enough space on the deck for the long dinghy, (on the most boats there isn't), make the nesting one in 2 or 3 pices. Putting it together is a hassle, I know, but dragging outboard and gas around is even worse. Milan > > Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. > > Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and converted to triple chine origami. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now under construction in our yard. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start construction on one or both over the summer. > > At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, dismastings, and sinkings. > > One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > > While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little or no room to drag. > > We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. > > The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in mind. > > The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be more fun when out on the water. > > The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to building boats that look like production boats, which have very different economics than origami. > > Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. > > It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both boats with the same given interior. > > For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its own privacy. > > Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., etc., which is what takes the time. > > I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats they really want. > > I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then follow with the acid wash. > > I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > > While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > > This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. > > While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down dramatically in price. > > Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > > One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 US as is, where is. No insurance. > > I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. > > Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it span. > > Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. > > Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. > > It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I want. > > My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest of your life you will have to go cruising. > > I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > > Greg Elliott > > PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7820|7820|2005-05-05 12:52:06|ed_lithgow|"Weldless" Framing Idea / Heresy|Hi all There have been some posts for and against transverse frames / bulkheads lately, so I thought I'd chuck this in. I have negligable experience, have not been monitoring the group for long, and the idea is heretical on a number of counts, but you guys should be able to transcend that and stick to rational argument when you shoot it / me down. The basic idea is to construct a frame "cage" of relatively thin flat (i.e. in the same plane as the hull surface) steel plate, each frame strip plate say roughly six inches width, held a similar distance from the hull by temporary spacers. If longitudinal and transverse plates are both employed, they would be welded where they cross. If only transverse "ring" frames are wanted, some longitudinal stringers between the frames would probably be desirable, though these could be temporary if there are also longitudinal stringers on the hull surface, as I understand is generally the case for origami boats. The space between the hull surface and the ring frame is then filled with concrete/ferrocement, bevelled outward at an angle of 45 degrees or more to meet the hull inside surface. I say "concrete/ferrocement" because I envisage steel mesh reinforcement near the hull inner surface to give the "feathered edge" of the concrete some resilience. This shouldn't be necessary through the full thickness of the concrete unless the widths and thicknesses are much reduced. It should be possible to extend the thin ferrocement edge between the frames to form a continuous inner hull, but then of course the whole inner hull surface would be innacessible for inspection. This method seems to offer some potential advantages:- 1. The thin (say, same as hull thickness) flat plate frame surfaces should be relatively easy to bend to fit the hull curves, and economical in material? 2. The curved composite frames should be loaded mostly in compression, like an arch, concretes favorite loading? This implies the method would be less suitable for hard-chine construction. 3. No hull welding, and consequently no hull distortion. 4. In the event of heavy impact the "feathered edge", and ultimately the whole frame, seem likely to fail progressively with hull distortion, avoiding the "hard spot" tearing and consequent hull breach mentioned in previous posts. This might not be fully possible if watertight bulkheads are mounted on some of the frames, since these (unless very sophisticatedly corrugated/compressible) would probabably have to be too robust to permit much distortion. Snags / unknowns might include:- Weight? The significance of this is obviously dependent on hull size. I suppose frames become more desirable with larger hulls, where weight is less of an issue. The above arbitary dimensions could be reduced, and more ferrocement used to reduce concrete mass. Adhesion? If the hull "pants" will the concrete separate from the hull surface? If so, will this compromise structural (mostly compressive) strength? Will a thin crack between concrete and steel lead to unacceptable levels of Corrosion? Steel seems to generally do OK covered in (alkaline) concrete, but the surface wont be readily available for inspection, and surface coatings in this application are probably a bit of an unknown. A full ferro "steel jacketed" inner hull might actually be more corrosion resistant than either a "pure" steel or ferro boat, BUT the inability to inspect interior steel surfaces is still a big worry. The most certain killer is probably peer pressure. Sound or not, it will look "odd" and "bodged" and no one will want to buy it. I'll be interested in any group reaction. Regards, Ed Lithgow| 7821|7703|2005-05-05 12:52:23|Carl Volkwein|Re: Stupid newbie welder question #2|Wesley Cox wrote: Fwiw, I had a similar experience with a deep flesh burn, top of the foot. It was no more healed after several months than on the first day despite successfully healing myself many times for many years. In a flash of inspiration, which now seems more akin to a 'duh' moment, I began rubbing the juices of a small cutting of live aloe vera on it 2-3 times a day. After a week, it was healed completely. Gary H. Lucas wrote: >I used to wear 9" high lace up boots. I had a hot glob of metal go down in >my boot and rest under the ball of my foot! You ever try tearing off a >tightly laced 9" boot while in excruciating pain? Damn thing burned a hole >in the bottom of my foot about 1/2" in diameter. I walked with a limp for >nearly three months, it just wouldn't heal. > >I took my glove off once to reach into a tight corner. The weld didn't >start well and I flipped a glob off the tip of the rod. It fell onto my >heavy gold wedding band. When I lifted up the helmet the band was glowing >red. I badly burned two fingers on the other hand getting the ring off. I >never put it back on, I still have a scar there, and I still have the ring >with the glob of steel welded to it, but that wife is long gone! > >Gary H. Lucas > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Jaine" >To: >Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 7:58 AM >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stupid newbie welder question #2 > > >Not a rod tip but�.don�t wear sandals when welding���I know from experience! > > > >Bill > >Port Hope. Canada > >It's no fun when the slag drops into your ear either, though much easier to extract(turn your head so that ear is down)after that you can hear real good. C. Volkwein > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.0 - Release Date: 29/04/2005 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7822|7787|2005-05-05 12:52:33|jim_both|Re: Shady Business :-)|Terry; I was wondering if you considered using any of the ceramic paint products (supertherm, ceramic bead additives) when you were doing your preliminary calculations for your condensation/temperature control management system? Jim| 7823|7820|2005-05-06 12:59:00|gschnell|Re: "Weldless" Framing Idea / Heresy|Ed I read the posting. My comment: WHY??? Gord ed_lithgow wrote: > Hi all > > There have been some posts for and against transverse frames / > bulkheads lately, so I thought I'd chuck this in. I have negligable > experience, have not been monitoring the group for long, and the > idea is heretical on a number of counts, but you guys should be able > to transcend that and stick to rational argument when you shoot it / > me down. > > The basic idea is to construct a frame "cage" of relatively thin > flat (i.e. in the same plane as the hull surface) steel plate, each > frame strip plate say roughly six inches width, held a similar > distance from the hull by temporary spacers. If longitudinal and > transverse plates are both employed, they would be welded where they > cross. If only transverse "ring" frames are wanted, some > longitudinal stringers between the frames would probably be > desirable, though these could be temporary if there are also > longitudinal stringers on the hull surface, as I understand is > generally the case for origami boats. > > The space between the hull surface and the ring frame is then filled > with concrete/ferrocement, bevelled outward at an angle of 45 > degrees or more to meet the hull inside surface. I > say "concrete/ferrocement" because I envisage steel mesh > reinforcement near the hull inner surface to give the "feathered > edge" of the concrete some resilience. This shouldn't be necessary > through the full thickness of the concrete unless the widths and > thicknesses are much reduced. > > It should be possible to extend the thin ferrocement edge between > the frames to form a continuous inner hull, but then of course the > whole inner hull surface would be innacessible for inspection. > > This method seems to offer some potential advantages:- > > 1. The thin (say, same as hull thickness) flat plate frame surfaces > should be relatively easy to bend to fit the hull curves, and > economical in material? > > 2. The curved composite frames should be loaded mostly in > compression, like an arch, concretes favorite loading? This implies > the method would be less suitable for hard-chine construction. > > 3. No hull welding, and consequently no hull distortion. > > 4. In the event of heavy impact the "feathered edge", and ultimately > the whole frame, seem likely to fail progressively with hull > distortion, avoiding the "hard spot" tearing and consequent hull > breach mentioned in previous posts. This might not be fully possible > if watertight bulkheads are mounted on some of the frames, since > these (unless very sophisticatedly corrugated/compressible) would > probabably have to be too robust to permit much distortion. > > Snags / unknowns might include:- > > Weight? The significance of this is obviously dependent on hull > size. I suppose frames become more desirable with larger hulls, > where weight is less of an issue. The above arbitary dimensions > could be reduced, and more ferrocement used to reduce concrete mass. > > Adhesion? If the hull "pants" will the concrete separate from the > hull surface? If so, will this compromise structural (mostly > compressive) strength? Will a thin crack between concrete and steel > lead to unacceptable levels of > > Corrosion? Steel seems to generally do OK covered in (alkaline) > concrete, but the surface wont be readily available for inspection, > and surface coatings in this application are probably a bit of an > unknown. A full ferro "steel jacketed" inner hull might actually be > more corrosion resistant than either a "pure" steel or ferro boat, > BUT the inability to inspect interior steel surfaces is still a big > worry. > > The most certain killer is probably peer pressure. Sound or not, it > will look "odd" and "bodged" and no one will want to buy it. > > I'll be interested in any group reaction. > > Regards, Ed Lithgow > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7824|7820|2005-05-06 12:59:37|Gerd|Re: "Weldless" Framing Idea / Heresy|Well Ed, this sure is entirely novel - which does not happen often in boatbuilding ;-) So if I understand you right you would have a sort of composite structure consisting out of 1) outer steel skin 2) inner ferro hull (in itselft a composite of steel and concrete) 3) inner steel framing ? What I would ask first - and before going into scantling issues - is where is the overall advantage? Weight/Strength - usually you would want to optimize composite structures to make different strong but light things do what they do best for a given job.. here we have 2 materials that are not really known as being lightweight ;-) How about replacing the ferro with somethings else? Foam, honeycomb etc etc? Work - if I understand you right you have to build anyway a steel structure as well as a steel skin, just as you would do in any other steel-only assembly method, and this is not helped by the fact that it would be thin material... on the contrary! in addition to that you have to build a ferro hull ? Skin versus Structure - I also can not see in which way this changes the overall structuring approach. A hull needs somthing to keep the water out and something to support all loads: There can be either frames and a very light non-structural skin, or a selfsupporting skin with no frames, or any distribution of skin/structure requirements between the two extremes apporaches. This is then decided depending on how we place priorities as to the importance of speed or collision resistance or coral-hopping etc, to each his own please ;-) Most boats (with few exceptions like strongall - see elsewhere here in the forum) have more or less structure with thicker or thinner skins. In your case, you would still need to take the same decision: will you have a thick and very strong hull with no framing or a lighter hull with the type of framing that you think necessery (travers, longuitudinal, also bulkheads and furniture) so the basic frames/no-frames issue is not solved. Finally: Scantling. As with all novel composite approaches you can unfortunately not rely on any empiric scantling knowledge. This means always that either you do very advanced structural engeneering and tests as they do for big racing projects, or you do what they did in early GRP production: oversize everything beyond your wildest fears just to be on the safe side while your waiting for empiric data. Guessing and significantly oversizing with already HEAVY materials is - in my opinion - not acceptable when there are proven methods to get good results for less weight, work and ultimately cost. Having said that - I am still very much interested in this subject. The fact that with origami patterns you can create a geometrically correct and pleasing metal (steel or alloy) shape just with the plating and without any other building support should really make us search for alternative ways to structurally stiffen this shape in cheap, strong and light ways. I have already mentioned this earlier I believe, but there was a guy in france many years ago who had recovered big alloy panels from discarded Highway signs, you know like 20 square meters saying "Nice prochaine sortie..." with arrows and all that ;-) These panels were very cheap, but to thin to allow normal alloy scantling, so he was scratching his head how he could build a boat from them. I have never seen the project, just heard about it, but from what I understood he build a boat with foam-core sandwiched between the 2 light alloy skins for almost no money, light stiff and dirt cheap. I believe he made flat sandwich panels first for a developable hard- chine hull, cut them out and then sort of stitched (riveted?) and glued them together. I have always wondered if we could do something like that in Origami with the advantage of the instant hull folding: Why not for example: 1) 2 mm steel, (or say 3 mm alloy) outer skin folded the origami way 2) core material (spray foam...? balsa...) 3) Inner skin Glas/polyester Should be possible to build the entire thing without any mould the origami way, no or little framing, minimal welding and distortion and so on. As for scantling you would not be completely in the dark, probably on the safe side starting out with known and proven GRP/Sandwich scantling rules and then research the differences you get when replacing one of the skins with alloy. I think (and now know from building my own hull) that origami is a fantastic way to get a hull-shape, but I am certain it's not the end of the road yet. Having a shell that is - so to say - it's own mould should really open us lots of other doors as to where to go from there. So keep it coming ;-) Gerd The YAGO PROJECT at http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 7825|7820|2005-05-06 12:59:37|sae140|Re: "Weldless" Framing Idea / Heresy|Hello Ed you write: "The basic idea is to construct a frame "cage" of relatively thin flat (i.e. in the same plane as the hull surface) steel plate, each frame strip plate say roughly six inches width, held a similar distance from the hull by temporary spacers." and then "The space between the hull surface and the ring frame is then filled with concrete/ferrocement ...." So my first question concerns the pre-existing hull to which the "frame-cage" is secured - is this a mold perhaps, or is it some kind of skin which is formed prior to the exercise of which you speak, which will remain in place afterwards to form the hull's inner surface ? I was a little suprised to see you favour a cement-based infill, as you are then combining two materials with very different properties. In the origami design, substantial rigidity is created by the hull shaping process, but in the event of an extreme point impact, the skin will deform rather than puncture, due to mild steel's inherent ductility. In contrast, cement/ concrete has no such ductility, and I suspect that although the structure you propose will have high rigidity, it will probably fracture and separate if subjected to severe impact (assuming I understand your proposal correctly). The use of a material with some flexibility might be one solution - perhaps an epoxy-polystyrene bead mix to replace the cement ? If the steel frame-cage was cleaned and wire-brushed and treated with POR15 (a one-part epoxy) or a layer of conventional 2-part epoxy (or even both), that should prevent any future rusting. For added abrasion resistance, an epoxy-portland cement putty skin could be applied to the outer surface - this stuff is almost impossible to sand, but could be faired with careful use of an angle grinder fitted with a stone disk. As a bonus, the use of this kind of infill material would result in a much lighter hull. Indeed, if the infill was made thick enough, then the hull might even become unsinkable ! What I like about your proposal is that the use of a steel basket former combined with a suitable infill might prove a technique suitable for the building of steel-composite hulls of even 20 feet or less ? Certainly worth making up a test piece for destructive testing I would have thought. Regards, Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > Hi all > > There have been some posts for and against transverse frames / > bulkheads lately, so I thought I'd chuck this in. I have negligable > experience, have not been monitoring the group for long, and the > idea is heretical on a number of counts, but you guys should be able > to transcend that and stick to rational argument when you shoot it / > me down. > > The basic idea is to construct a frame "cage" of relatively thin > flat (i.e. in the same plane as the hull surface) steel plate, each > frame strip plate say roughly six inches width, held a similar > distance from the hull by temporary spacers. If longitudinal and > transverse plates are both employed, they would be welded where they > cross. If only transverse "ring" frames are wanted, some > longitudinal stringers between the frames would probably be > desirable, though these could be temporary if there are also > longitudinal stringers on the hull surface, as I understand is > generally the case for origami boats. > > The space between the hull surface and the ring frame is then filled > with concrete/ferrocement, bevelled outward at an angle of 45 > degrees or more to meet the hull inside surface. I > say "concrete/ferrocement" because I envisage steel mesh > reinforcement near the hull inner surface to give the "feathered > edge" of the concrete some resilience. This shouldn't be necessary > through the full thickness of the concrete unless the widths and > thicknesses are much reduced. > > It should be possible to extend the thin ferrocement edge between > the frames to form a continuous inner hull, but then of course the > whole inner hull surface would be innacessible for inspection. > > This method seems to offer some potential advantages:- > > 1. The thin (say, same as hull thickness) flat plate frame surfaces > should be relatively easy to bend to fit the hull curves, and > economical in material? > > 2. The curved composite frames should be loaded mostly in > compression, like an arch, concretes favorite loading? This implies > the method would be less suitable for hard-chine construction. > > 3. No hull welding, and consequently no hull distortion. > > 4. In the event of heavy impact the "feathered edge", and ultimately > the whole frame, seem likely to fail progressively with hull > distortion, avoiding the "hard spot" tearing and consequent hull > breach mentioned in previous posts. This might not be fully possible > if watertight bulkheads are mounted on some of the frames, since > these (unless very sophisticatedly corrugated/compressible) would > probabably have to be too robust to permit much distortion. > > Snags / unknowns might include:- > > Weight? The significance of this is obviously dependent on hull > size. I suppose frames become more desirable with larger hulls, > where weight is less of an issue. The above arbitary dimensions > could be reduced, and more ferrocement used to reduce concrete mass. > > Adhesion? If the hull "pants" will the concrete separate from the > hull surface? If so, will this compromise structural (mostly > compressive) strength? Will a thin crack between concrete and steel > lead to unacceptable levels of > > Corrosion? Steel seems to generally do OK covered in (alkaline) > concrete, but the surface wont be readily available for inspection, > and surface coatings in this application are probably a bit of an > unknown. A full ferro "steel jacketed" inner hull might actually be > more corrosion resistant than either a "pure" steel or ferro boat, > BUT the inability to inspect interior steel surfaces is still a big > worry. > > The most certain killer is probably peer pressure. Sound or not, it > will look "odd" and "bodged" and no one will want to buy it. > > I'll be interested in any group reaction. > > Regards, Ed Lithgow | 7826|1416|2005-05-06 12:59:48|jnikadie|Steel|Can anyone direct me to some scrapyards and/or steel suppliers near Victoria? Sources for welding supplies?| 7827|7820|2005-05-06 13:00:00|Gerd|Re: "Weldless" Framing Idea / Heresy|Well Ed, this sure is entirely novel - which does not happen often in boatbuilding ;-) So if I understand you right you would have a sort of composite structure consisting out of 1) outer steel skin 2) inner ferro hull (in itselft a composite of steel and concrete) 3) inner steel framing ? What I would ask first - and before going into scantling issues - is where is the overall advantage? Weight/Strength - usually you would want to optimize composite structures to make different strong but light things do what they do best for a given job.. here we have 2 materials that are not really known as being lightweight ;-) How about replacing the ferro with somethings else? Foam, honeycomb etc etc? Work - if I understand you right you have to build anyway a steel structure as well as a steel skin, just as you would do in any other steel-only assembly method, and this is not helped by the fact that it would be thin material... on the contrary! in addition to that you have to build a ferro hull ? Skin versus Structure - I also can not see in which way this changes the overall structuring approach. A hull needs somthing to keep the water out and something to support all loads: There can be either frames and a very light non-structural skin, or a selfsupporting skin with no frames, or any distribution of skin/structure requirements between the two extremes apporaches. This is then decided depending on how we place priorities as to the importance of speed or collision resistance or coral-hopping etc, to each his own please ;-) Most boats (with few exceptions like strongall - see elsewhere here in the forum) have more or less structure with thicker or thinner skins. In your case, you would still need to take the same decision: will you have a thick and very strong hull with no framing or a lighter hull with the type of framing that you think necessery (travers, longuitudinal, also bulkheads and furniture) so the basic frames/no-frames issue is not solved. Finally: Scantling. As with all novel composite approaches you can unfortunately not rely on any empiric scantling knowledge. This means always that either you do very advanced structural engeneering and tests as they do for big racing projects, or you do what they did in early GRP production: oversize everything beyond your wildest fears just to be on the safe side while your waiting for empiric data. Guessing and significantly oversizing with already HEAVY materials is - in my opinion - not acceptable when there are proven methods to get good results for less weight, work and ultimately cost. Having said that - I am still very much interested in this subject. The fact that with origami patterns you can create a geometrically correct and pleasing metal (steel or alloy) shape just with the plating and without any other building support should really make us search for alternative ways to structurally stiffen this shape in cheap, strong and light ways. I have already mentioned this earlier I believe, but there was a guy in france many years ago who had recovered big alloy panels from discarded Highway signs, you know like 20 square meters saying "Nice prochaine sortie..." with arrows and all that ;-) These panels were very cheap, but to thin to allow normal alloy scantling, so he was scratching his head how he could build a boat from them. I have never seen the project, just heard about it, but from what I understood he build a boat with foam-core sandwiched between the 2 light alloy skins for almost no money, light stiff and dirt cheap. I believe he made flat sandwich panels first for a developable hard- chine hull, cut them out and then sort of stitched (riveted?) and glued them together. I have always wondered if we could do something like that in Origami with the advantage of the instant hull folding: Why not for example: 1) 2 mm steel, (or say 3 mm alloy) outer skin folded the origami way 2) core material (spray foam...? balsa...) 3) Inner skin Glas/polyester Should be possible to build the entire thing without any mould the origami way, no or little framing, minimal welding and distortion and so on. As for scantling you'ld not be completely in the dark, you would probably be on the safe side starting out with known and proven GRP/Sandwich scantling rules and then research the differences you get when replacing one of the skins with alloy. I think (and now know from building my own hull) that origami is a fantastic way to get a hull-shape, but I am certain it's not the end of the road yet. Having a shell that is - so to say - it's own mould should really open us lots of other doors as to where to go from there. So keep it coming ;-) Gerd The YAGO PROJECT at http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 7828|7828|2005-05-06 13:00:36|jim_both|Email Delivery|Earlier in the year I was receiving my own email nearly instantaneuosly after submitting it to Origami; now it seems that all posts are processed once per day, and they go out as a batch. This seems to be unique to Origami, since with the other Yahoo Groups I subscribe to this does not occur. I guess I need to learn to be more patient, but it does mean a minimum of a two day turn-around. Jim| 7829|7809|2005-05-06 13:01:03|jim_both|Re: origami magic|Greg, with transverse framing it may be possible to use rolled plates pulled over the frames to replace multichine with radius chine. Jim| 7830|1416|2005-05-06 14:09:23|Alex Christie|Re: Steel|Julian, there is a yard called Budget Steel in Victoria, practically downtown (north of Bay Street?) where Brent and I went once, and it may have some good stuff. Kind of odd set-up, not really meant for retail (they were confused at first as to what we wanted), but after making it clear what we were after we had the run of the stainless steel zone and found some good pieces, at fairly reasonable prices (possibly because the fact that they weren't really set up for retail). There is also a scrap dealer on Munn's Road way out in Metchosin in the woods, where they have some stacked stainless sheet, aluminum, and stainless bits and pieces. It's always a grab bag at the different yards, sometimes you hit the jackpot on one visit, then find nothing on the next, so it is worth re-visiting each place regularly. Stainless steel was $1.00 per lb when I began to gather for the boat last year, then it whipped up to $2.00 at some yards, back down to $1.50 (after some haggling at ABC in Campbell River), then up to $2.50/lb at Harper's (Campbell River, that company traditionally over priced). Alex On 6-May-05, at 9:23 AM, jnikadie wrote: > Can anyone direct me to some scrapyards and/or steel suppliers near > Victoria? > > Sources for welding supplies? > > > | 7831|7831|2005-05-06 14:29:05|Puck III|Good Seamanship in boatbuilding & design .|Hobbyhorsing & pitching act as a major break on any boat. For safety ,weight should be carried & stowed as low as possible in any sailboat to enhance : - reduction of ritmic pitching & - righting moment . I think some anchor lifting systems , as seen in the Photo section in this Group , need some serious rethinking . Please correct me if I am wrong . Old Ben| 7832|7831|2005-05-06 15:30:16|Gerd|Re: Good Seamanship in boatbuilding & design .|you might add "centered" to "low", old Ben ;-) even old Bernard from Josua realized that he was better off by keeping the ends light. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hobbyhorsing & pitching act as a major break on any boat. > > For safety ,weight should be carried & stowed as low as > possible in any sailboat to enhance : > - reduction of ritmic pitching & > - righting moment . > > I think some anchor lifting systems , as seen in the Photo > section in this Group , need some serious rethinking . > > Please correct me if I am wrong . > > Old Ben | 7833|7831|2005-05-06 16:46:32|Puck III|Re: Good Seamanship in boatbuilding & design .|Thanks Gerd for that positive contribution ,I just added it to the original message , and ....what a difference a word make:-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > you might add "centered" to "low", old Ben ;-) even old Bernard from > Josua realized that he was better off by keeping the ends light. > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hobbyhorsing & pitching act as a major break on any boat. > > > > For safety ,weight should be carried & stowed as low and as centered as > > possible in any sailboat to enhance : > > - reduction of ritmic pitching & > > - righting moment . > > > > I think some anchor lifting systems , as seen in the Photo > > section in this Group , need some serious rethinking . > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong . > > > > Old Ben | 7834|7831|2005-05-06 18:53:05|brentswain38|Re: Good Seamanship in boatbuilding & design .|For long ocean passages I like to cat my anchors and bring them more amidships. However for coastal cruising, good seamanship means having the anchors readily accessible, with the most reliable ( Simplist) anchoring system available. Wire rope is one seventh the weight of chain and far more structurally reliable. Storing it on a reel gives one the ultimate in control overr the rode and it doesn't paricularly matter what gysy it fits. I've met people all over the Pacific having major problems matching chain to a given size gypsy. Snarl a chain in a chain locker( a common enough problem) when trying to get off a lee shore and you are in real trouble, especially with larger boats. This is a non issue with a reel winch. Commercial boats on the BC coast , fishing in all weather, have used nothing but reel winches for the last century. Trying to reduce weight in the ends by putting anchors and other anchoring gear in inaccesible locations is bad seamanship.Using a winch which has a lot of difficult to access parts built in is also bad seamanship. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > you might add "centered" to "low", old Ben ;-) even old Bernard from > Josua realized that he was better off by keeping the ends light. > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hobbyhorsing & pitching act as a major break on any boat. > > > > For safety ,weight should be carried & stowed as low as > > possible in any sailboat to enhance : > > - reduction of ritmic pitching & > > - righting moment . > > > > I think some anchor lifting systems , as seen in the Photo > > section in this Group , need some serious rethinking . > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong . > > > > Old Ben | 7835|7835|2005-05-06 19:18:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|updates to origami magic|http://www.origamimagic.com/ http://www.origamimagic.com/economics.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7836|7809|2005-05-06 19:53:06|brentswain38|Re: origami magic|You must have an incredible selection of tropical hardwoods available for cheap in the Pillipines as well. ABS certifies fibreglass boats as well. Get your self an ABS certified fibreglass boat and we'll have a demolition derby with one of my steel non approved bulkheadles origami boats .So much for ABS. I was also told that ABS requires plastic thru hulls on metal boats. So much for ABS. LLoyds insists on stainless keel bolts for woden boats. Stainless keel bolts suffer from extremely rapid crevice corrosion when in wet wood. So much for Lloyds. Span in frames is only one issue. Shape has a major bearing on strength , Frames have none, longitudinals are portions of an arc, and thus much stronger for a given length .The severe torture tests that my boats have survived clearly show the lack of any structural need for bulkheads. What extreme torture tests have your boats had? Too big a boat has sunk more cruising dreams than all other causes combined. I heard that Greg, one of your clients ,is bailing out, due to excessive costs. I got my current 31 footer sailing in 1984 for under $6,000 as that was all the money that I had at the time.The boat has fitted my needs perfectly since then. Could I have built a 50 ft aluminium boat for that? Last time I checked ,the aluminium alone for a 31 footer , laying on the ground, cost nearly three times that much, before even starting to build. Speed , to be realistic , has to include the time building aquiring, and paying for a boat as well as the passage times. Initialy, one can build in just a bunk, head and galley, then go cruising. The rest can be done later , at one's liesure. This approach, giving oneself lots of time to decide what one wants, results in a better boat for less effort. Lately I've been using sch 40 SS standpipes to above the waterline for thru hulls, greatly reducing the liklihood of a boat sinking from fitting failures. One of the great advantages of metal construction is that thru hulls don't have to be at right angles to the hull. This lets us run such standpipes parallell to bulkheads , thus making them more practical from a space standpoint. The downwind side of any ocean has always been an excellent place to shop for a used boat. When people get home sick , burned out and broke, boats can be had for real cheap, as long as you are willing to settle for whatever is available. If you insist on a good metal hull of your own construction, some of these boats sell for a fraction the price of the goodies aboard. You could sail one home and transfer the goodies to your next hull, if customs doesn't ask too much. I agree that aluminium makes the best hatches possible. If I were very rich and starting a boat I would seriously consider aluminium for everything from the decks up. This is becoming much more common.Such superstructures could be buiolt inside, out of the wind, in a much smaller space than required for the hull. This would enable one to build the aluminium part in the sheltered conditions it demands, and do the steel hull outside. Given the problems finding suitable antifouling paint and other underwater corrosion problems and the weakness of welds and the trickiness of getting really good welds on aluminium, I wouldn't even consider anything but steel for the hull and sidedecks. With the new steel prices, scrap aluminium pipe is probably cheaper than new steel for the mast. One client , successfully bolted galvanized fittings on his aluminium mast , enabling him to do it all with a buzzbox. My book tells you how to build a watermaker with a pressure washer pump. The General TT911 has ceramic plungers , is reasonably cheap, and works well. Wolf had a demonstration model working at the last Vancouver boat show. Maintenance on my steel boat is about an hour or two a year, far less than the difference in price between steel and aluminium. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. > > Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and converted to triple chine origami. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now under construction in our yard. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start construction on one or both over the summer. > > At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, dismastings, and sinkings. > > One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > > While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little or no room to drag. > > We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. > > The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in mind. > > The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be more fun when out on the water. > > The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to building boats that look like production boats, which have very different economics than origami. > > Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. > > It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both boats with the same given interior. > > For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its own privacy. > > Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., etc., which is what takes the time. > > I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats they really want. > > I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then follow with the acid wash. > > I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > > While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > > This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. > > While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down dramatically in price. > > Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > > One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 US as is, where is. No insurance. > > I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. > > Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it span. > > Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. > > Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. > > It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I want. > > My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest of your life you will have to go cruising. > > I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > > Greg Elliott > > PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7837|7777|2005-05-06 19:56:51|brentswain38|Re: info about Dove III|plans for the 26 footer are $200. The original 26 footer has 8 ft beam and is 26 ft overall. She weighs 6700 lbs with 1500 lbs of ballast and 320 lbs of steel in the keels. Dove111 was stretched to 27 ft and the beam was forced out a bit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mia" wrote: > Hi Mister Brent Swain , can you give me the Dove III > specifications , and tell me how much the plan cost is ?? > Thanks in advance. > Mia | 7838|7809|2005-05-06 20:25:19|Gary H. Lucas|Re: origami magic|Brent, I was thinking about the long vertical standpipe idea. My thought was that the top of the standpipe could be open and use an expanding pipe plug to close it. Connect your hose to the stand pipe with a tee on the side. To close off the standpipe right at the hull you could push the expanding plug down past the side tee opening and tighten it back up. This would allow you to remove and service hoses or just keep the marine growth out of the standpipe when not in use for extended periods. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami magic > You must have an incredible selection of tropical hardwoods available > for cheap in the Pillipines as well. > ABS certifies fibreglass boats as well. Get your self an ABS > certified fibreglass boat and we'll have a demolition derby with one > of my steel non approved bulkheadles origami boats .So much for ABS. > I was also told that ABS requires plastic thru hulls on metal boats. > So much for ABS. > LLoyds insists on stainless keel bolts for woden boats. Stainless > keel bolts suffer from extremely rapid crevice corrosion when in wet > wood. So much for Lloyds. > Span in frames is only one issue. Shape has a major bearing on > strength , Frames have none, longitudinals are portions of an arc, > and thus much stronger for a given length .The severe torture tests > that my boats have survived clearly show the lack of any structural > need for bulkheads. What extreme torture tests have your boats had? > Too big a boat has sunk more cruising dreams than all other causes > combined. I heard that Greg, one of your clients ,is bailing out, due > to excessive costs. > I got my current 31 footer sailing in 1984 for under $6,000 as that > was all the money that I had at the time.The boat has fitted my needs > perfectly since then. Could I have built a 50 ft aluminium boat for > that? Last time I checked ,the aluminium alone for a 31 footer , > laying on the ground, cost nearly three times that much, before even > starting to build. > Speed , to be realistic , has to include the time building > aquiring, and paying for a boat as well as the passage times. > Initialy, one can build in just a bunk, head and galley, then go > cruising. The rest can be done later , at one's liesure. This > approach, giving oneself lots of time to decide what one wants, > results in a better boat for less effort. > Lately I've been using sch 40 SS standpipes to above the waterline > for thru hulls, greatly reducing the liklihood of a boat sinking from > fitting failures. One of the great advantages of metal construction > is that thru hulls don't have to be at right angles to the hull. This > lets us run such standpipes parallell to bulkheads , thus making them > more practical from a space standpoint. > The downwind side of any ocean has always been an excellent place to > shop for a used boat. When people get home sick , burned out and > broke, boats can be had for real cheap, as long as you are willing to > settle for whatever is available. If you insist on a good metal hull > of your own construction, some of these boats sell for a fraction the > price of the goodies aboard. You could sail one home and transfer the > goodies to your next hull, if customs doesn't ask too much. > I agree that aluminium makes the best hatches possible. If I were > very rich and starting a boat I would seriously consider aluminium > for everything from the decks up. This is becoming much more > common.Such superstructures could be buiolt inside, out of the wind, > in a much smaller space than required for the hull. This would enable > one to build the aluminium part in the sheltered conditions it > demands, and do the steel hull outside. > Given the problems finding suitable antifouling paint and other > underwater corrosion problems and the weakness of welds and the > trickiness of getting really good welds on aluminium, I wouldn't even > consider anything but steel for the hull and sidedecks. > With the new steel prices, scrap aluminium pipe is probably cheaper > than new steel for the mast. One client , successfully bolted > galvanized fittings on his aluminium mast , enabling him to do it all > with a buzzbox. > My book tells you how to build a watermaker with a pressure washer > pump. The General TT911 has ceramic plungers , is reasonably cheap, > and works well. Wolf had a demonstration model working at the last > Vancouver boat show. > Maintenance on my steel boat is about an hour or two a year, far > less than the difference in price between steel and aluminium. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm > off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our > boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before > next fall. >> >> Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the > Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired > by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and > converted to triple chine origami. >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm >> >> At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which > is now under construction in our yard. >> >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm >> >> We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to > start construction on one or both over the summer. >> >> At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami > relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in > the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow > water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. > Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, > dismastings, and sinkings. >> >> One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important > pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a > result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few > strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of > the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a > shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. >> >> While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is > rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope > to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While > Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal > bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even > squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little > or no room to drag. >> >> We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to > a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure > location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving > the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The > Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. >> >> I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising > Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by > the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a > great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. > Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a > different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy > with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. >> >> The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple > formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) > by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in > mind. >> >> The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons > displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being > beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same > to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it > will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. > Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a > better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be > more fun when out on the water. >> >> The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, > lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a > short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to > building boats that look like production boats, which have very > different economics than origami. >> >> Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a > length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, > resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better > approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, > design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then > build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. >> >> It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, > with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than > to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try > and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up > fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be > simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat > 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, > the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both > boats with the same given interior. >> >> For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double > berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another > down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull > you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up > somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the > galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler > and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its > own privacy. >> >> Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, > the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. > Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up > exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, > with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than > smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer > hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, > you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., > etc., which is what takes the time. >> >> I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami > technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat > building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to > meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over > the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all > long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not > one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget > boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are > not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in > Asia to build the boats they really want. >> >> I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy > cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the > waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a > great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing > aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate > primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is > not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons > should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily > oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then > follow with the acid wash. >> >> I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time > friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has > a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in > partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience > worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready > supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to > produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to > build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For > example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was > roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe > you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. >> >> While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard > Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a > 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, > all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard > converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment > the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. >> >> This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, > doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years > without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to > building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and > look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard > and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a > steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative > impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy > used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in > steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel > mad because of Blyth and British Steel. >> >> With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE > Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now > costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once > other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The > yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building > steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even > when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of > steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made > alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. > However, this may well be changing. >> >> While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of > the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of > the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest > electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, > CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do > MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 > amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest > rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye > open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down > dramatically in price. >> >> Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have > built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are > going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have > ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of > steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. >> >> One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior > bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making > the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof > bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and > beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin > 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning > the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were > unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by > its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could > sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 > US as is, where is. No insurance. >> >> I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the > boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I > know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it > would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough > to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the > roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat > with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your > boat on the bottom. >> >> Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami > construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a > simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats > meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami > boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will > be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason > for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is > structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the > strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it > span. >> >> Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running > the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if > they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal > framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized > transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal > framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at > intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. >> >> Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times > stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 > times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 > times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to > make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads > can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by > fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal > or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can > be "unsinkable" as well. >> >> It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we > should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There > is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of > someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over > and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a > very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly > strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to > his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should > significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family > and friends aboard, I feel the same. >> >> As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person > giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first > went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years > sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay > the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the > way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental > income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income > and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I > want. >> >> My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. > Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go > cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, > or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you > something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to > do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every > minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest > of your life you will have to go cruising. >> >> I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our > web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing > to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right > now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand > US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There > are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be > cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is > almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and > sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising > there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7839|7828|2005-05-07 01:13:47|sae140|Re: Email Delivery|Jim - at the risk of stating the obvious - have you checked your Origami group email settings ? Sounds like somehow the "Daily Digest" option has been selected. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Earlier in the year I was receiving my own email nearly > instantaneuosly after submitting it to Origami; now it seems that all > posts are processed once per day, and they go out as a batch. This > seems to be unique to Origami, since with the other Yahoo Groups I > subscribe to this does not occur. I guess I need to learn to be more > patient, but it does mean a minimum of a two day turn-around. > Jim | 7840|7840|2005-05-07 01:21:19|sae140|Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|I'm not exactly sure how some ideas get started, but folks can often be heard quoting the mantra that you can't possibly build a steel boat under 30 feet, and anything less than 40 feet is gonna be a big heavy slug to sail. Of course it may indeed be true for some designs - a few years back I read Jay Benford's views on building a sailing dory in steel - his view was it couldn't be done under 36 feet, and even then the hull would be tender. His view was that 40 feet plus would probably be ok. A few days ago I had an exchange over on Boat Design, when this mantra was being quoted, and for some reason which escapes me, 3/8" steel (!) was being quoted as a minimum skin thickness for a frameless design. I pointed out that Swain designs used 3/16 etc - and that 3/8 would be more suitable for a super- tanker - but it seems that the poster couldn't hear what I was saying, and that 3/8 continued to be quoted as a minimum together with the erroneous claim that Swain designs had to have frames fitted in 'em afterwards and so on .... ah well, maybe that's the nature of prejudice. But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what about steel hull only ? Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless - no displacement figures given. http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? Colin| 7841|7828|2005-05-07 01:33:25|jim_both|Re: Email Delivery|Thanks Colin, email has returned to normal today and my settings were correct. If you look at the posting times for emails over the last several days, an entire day's worth of postings have all been time- stamped within a few minutes of eachother, around 2am - I don't know what timezone this is... Also, I did notice some double posting over the last few days which indicates to me that other group members were experiencing the same problem. Because the posting didn't appear on the Yahoo website for quite a few hours and members possibly assumed that there was an error with their original posting (like I did :). Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Jim - at the risk of stating the obvious - have you checked > your Origami group email settings ? Sounds like somehow the > "Daily Digest" option has been selected. Colin > | 7842|7787|2005-05-07 01:58:18|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|Ted, Canestan and its replacement Hexal Clotreme --- now that is essential when the crotch rot / jock itch sets in!! We have been here 10 years and the first year when I got a patch, I actually went to the doc. thinking "What the hell is this?" His diagnosis and advice was short and to the point " To avoid crotch rot, wear loose fitting pants or no underclothes at all " Mould in boats is not yet a problem for me, and it is strange how some house surfaces grow it quickly and others don't seem to have any at all. Mould seems to ignore the "anti mould" words on some interior paint cans as well. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 04:22 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-)| 7843|7787|2005-05-07 01:58:22|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|Jim, The lines you mention have not been looked at seriously at this stage. There are some parts of the boat which might well be candidates for such a surface treatment. http://www.ceramicadditive.com/facts.html has some interesting claims. http://www.ceramicadditive.com/conduction_heat.html has a useful comparative table. Interestingly, I now appreciate the conversion between the US R values and our SI system, no wonder the US figures seemed high! If you divide the US 'R' by 5.68 the result is what we are used to here. The problems start when you look at how heat is actually transferred into (and out of) any space. Conductivity (and its inverse 'R') is only a small part of the total process. The retention of heat / cold is also an issue when the external temperatures are in a normal cycle. Add to this the need to ventilate the boat (which will eventually normalise the inside / outside temps.) and it is indeed a complex issue. I was trying to find the nominal R (SI) values for the Aqua Deck and Walk Easy composites added to the system and ran into lots of difficulty with the layers of adhesives, paint, cork/polymer, plywood, and polyethylene foam. I might get it right eventually! Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim_both Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 08:00 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-)| 7844|7787|2005-05-07 01:58:25|T & D CAIN|Re: Shady Business :-)|Have just re-read my post (below) and need to correct the inference that the prime purpose of the Al. is as a vapour barrier. The foil is thermally bonded to the polyethylene foam as a radiation reduction measure, and as such would normally be the exposed surface. Polyethylene foam is available without the foil face, but not normally stocked in the sizes I wanted. The foil is also an effective vapour barrier, but the cross-linked closed-cell foam is virtually moisture proof in its own right. More so apparently than faced or unfaced polyurethane foam. If I had decided on PU, the system behind the foam would have been identical, as would the covering for visible or abrasion prone areas. Terry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- I shall have to do an additional calculation for the total thickness of the composite system. The Polyshield is closed cell (really closed and permanent? --- unlike sprayed PU foam) foam with a thermally bonded aluminium vapour barrier. Will post some details when I can remember to bring them home. Formshield, Polyshield, K-Cell , Ecoflex - whatever, the physical constants of the foam are almost identical in all cases. Terry| 7845|7828|2005-05-07 02:03:58|T & D CAIN|Re: Email Delivery|Same experience as Jim (and others?). Changed nothing in the client here, and the posted stuff now pops back within a minute or so instead of a day later. Terry| 7846|7840|2005-05-07 03:41:44|Gerd|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|Colin,the smallest steel hull I have seen was built by my old friend and designer Gerard Chaigne about 20 years ago. He was given some rests from somebody elses project and just for fun designed and built himself a 6.50 m, double chine, flat bottom, very straightforward interior, begged around for old sails and a piece of mast.... Ready to sail in 3 months, costs literally nothing. That was a VERY nice boat, amazingly comfortable movements at sea and, moved like a 30 footer and once there was enough wind quite fast. Having said that, you know I am not really in favor of heavy displacement myself ;-) I also know that in Holland they were building lots of smaller boats in the seventies, sizes from 23 feet upwards, but I guess they have given up in the meantime for GRP. For the minimum plating thickness, always depends on what is taken into consideration... YAGO's hull is 3 and the deck 2mm, but that is a bit of a bitch to weld nicely. I have not started welding the seams yet, but from my last boat where the deck was 2.5 I know that you have to be prepared for some deformation. There is of course a relationship plate-thickness / boat-size in the sense that a smaller boat has tighter curves and more bend, 2 mm over a flat 40' deck would be very difficult to keep in shape but the same plating can produce a fair sweet deck on a 26 footer with lots of camber. One of the most respected advocates of generous scantling for steel is Dave Gerr. In his great book "elements of boat strength" he strongly advocates alloy over steel, even if he does design steel boats as well. Applying his scantling rules to smaller boats does indeed result in some quite impressive hulls... He bases his scantling on the fact that as a rule of thumb a steel hull may loose 0.0004 inches per year due to corrosion in some places and then applies a general "corrosion allowance to accomodate that wastage". So maybe that's where this got started - misunderstood simplifications of this approach crop up in many discussions. By the way, the book contains a very extensive collection of arguments for alloy/steel comparisons, the best I have found so far, although we might have at least as much here in the archive thanks to Greg and Brent ;-) Gerd The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I'm not exactly sure how some ideas get started, > but folks can often be heard quoting the mantra > that you can't possibly build a steel boat under > 30 feet, and anything less than 40 feet is gonna > be a big heavy slug to sail. Of course it may > indeed be true for some designs - a few years > back I read Jay Benford's views on building a > sailing dory in steel - his view was it couldn't > be done under 36 feet, and even then the hull > would be tender. His view was that 40 feet plus > would probably be ok. > A few days ago I had an exchange over on Boat > Design, when this mantra was being quoted, and > for some reason which escapes me, 3/8" steel (!) > was being quoted as a minimum skin thickness for > a frameless design. > I pointed out that Swain designs used 3/16 etc - > and that 3/8 would be more suitable for a super- > tanker - but it seems that the poster couldn't > hear what I was saying, and that 3/8 continued > to be quoted as a minimum together with the > erroneous claim that Swain designs had to have > frames fitted in 'em afterwards and so on .... > ah well, maybe that's the nature of prejudice. > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > about steel hull only ? > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > - no displacement figures given. > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > Colin | 7847|7840|2005-05-07 04:08:12|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > I did it in the boat design group it was a a slip I said 3/8s rather then 3/16th But then they where having so much fun with there ME equations I let them run with it. It was not Prejudice just a little lack of knowlage from the big number brainiacs.LOL Jon > I'm not exactly sure how some ideas get started, > but folks can often be heard quoting the mantra > that you can't possibly build a steel boat under > 30 feet, and anything less than 40 feet is gonna > be a big heavy slug to sail. Of course it may > indeed be true for some designs - a few years > back I read Jay Benford's views on building a > sailing dory in steel - his view was it couldn't > be done under 36 feet, and even then the hull > would be tender. His view was that 40 feet plus > would probably be ok. > A few days ago I had an exchange over on Boat > Design, when this mantra was being quoted, and > for some reason which escapes me, 3/8" steel (!) > was being quoted as a minimum skin thickness for > a frameless design. > I pointed out that Swain designs used 3/16 etc - > and that 3/8 would be more suitable for a super- > tanker - but it seems that the poster couldn't > hear what I was saying, and that 3/8 continued > to be quoted as a minimum together with the > erroneous claim that Swain designs had to have > frames fitted in 'em afterwards and so on .... > ah well, maybe that's the nature of prejudice. > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > about steel hull only ? > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > - no displacement figures given. > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > Colin | 7848|7809|2005-05-07 05:25:57|Puck III|Re: origami magic|Hi Greg , I took the liberty shortening your most interesting post to what seems of importance for potential European buyers . !!!!!!!! most interesting part !!!!!!! Some questions : - give us some more info about your long time experienced aluminum builder friend ,what's his nationality ? - will you personally be involved in the quality control in the " asian building association in the making " - the design to EU usual scantlings , mandatory righting tests & EU certification proces aint cheap , so a small productionnumber to split those costs among a minimum number of boats is most desirable both for the yard and for potential buyers wanting to cruise around in the building area , before shipping the boat back to Europ . - most buyers do not have all the free time they realy dream about , but realy sailing & testing the boat during a short charter holiday tour in suny asia would be a wise investment for them . - one interested party , a Belgian that has put his cheap build Philipino motor Banca up for sale , cause he wants to extend his cruisinggrounds and his boat does not allow that, due to a lack of seawothiness , sure is already waiting for what your answer is gone be , be it in this Group or on the Origamimagic site . Looking forward to your comments . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before next fall. Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the Rosey 37. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which is now under construction in our yard. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to start construction on one or both over the summer. Boats cost by the pound to build,... ... with the origami technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat building to a new level. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in Asia to build the boats they really want. !!!!!!!!!!!! I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. !!!!!!!!!!!! While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years without maintenance. With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. However, this may well be changing. While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your boat on the bottom. Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it span. Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can be "unsinkable" as well. As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person giving the advice and see what it has done for them. My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you something. I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Greg Elliott | 7849|7809|2005-05-07 06:03:23|sae140|Re: origami magic|Just case across a site where aluminium was being sold to punters as a hull material. http://www.seaotterboats.co.uk/faq.htm A couple of beaut quotes: "Why do Sea Otter use aluminium? No hull maintenance whatsoever. No annual blacking or anodes. No time spent rubbing down and repainting." Get that ? No maintenance whatsoever - and no anodes. "How does electrolytic reaction compare with a steel boat? A steel boat is a virtual chemistry set. Steel (of all types, grades and manufacture, which in many cases has adopted a magnetic field due to the amount of work done on it): stainless; phosphor bronze; manganese bronze; magnesium anodes and every other component in the engine. All of this makes a very good battery . We have just one material: the excellent marine grade aluminium alloy." It's so reassuring to learn that propellor shafts, propellors, rudder pintles, etc. are now being made from marine grade alloy. "Salt Water? The aluminium alloy loves salt water. The material creates its own protective coating by oxidisation. Because of the make up of salt water this happens even faster." So it loves salt water and is even protected by it ? (That's what they're saying !) Greg Elliott was promoting aluminium alloy in a recent post and appeared to be at a loss to understand why people (in the UK in particular) aren't enthusiastic about it's use. I don't think it has anything to do with Chay Blyth or British Steel - my guess is that when something is being so enthusiastically promoted (i.e. the big sell) - our natural reaction is one of a cynical questioning of the the salesman's primary motives ..... Steel, on the other hand, is never actively promoted in the same way (to the best of my knowledge). Colin| 7850|7809|2005-05-07 07:38:43|Gerd|Re: origami magic|Colin, I would not consider a builder of barges and narrowboats as a reference for marine materials - sure it's laughable, but you really can't judge the qualities of neither steel nor alloy by the commercially or otherwise motivated over-eagerness of their prophets and salesmen, there would be enough material around to make a very convincing case against steel as well ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Just case across a site where aluminium was being > sold to punters as a hull material. > http://www.seaotterboats.co.uk/faq.htm > > A couple of beaut quotes: > > "Why do Sea Otter use aluminium? > No hull maintenance whatsoever. No annual blacking > or anodes. No time spent rubbing down and repainting." > > Get that ? No maintenance whatsoever - and no anodes. | 7851|7851|2005-05-07 11:14:06|Phil S.|Aluminum or Steel,|I don't know about anyone else but we have all heard these arguments before, frankly I am sick of them. If I build a metal boat, I will build in steel. Here is why, 1.) I have a local source for steel and no company within 200 miles of my location carries marine grade aluminum. So having it shipped to my building site in lengths suitable for boat building would be expensive in addition to the fact it already costs 3 times as much as steel. 2.) I can build outside, instead of taking more money from my limited budget to build a large enough structure to build a boat in I can just get started on the drive way. 3.) I know how to get good welds on steel, and have inexpensive resources available to help with the welding. 4.) Welding on aluminum has to be gas shielded, gas ain't cheap. The list could go on... So unless you have $20,000(just for the hull material) to sink into a project that you may never finish, go with aluminum. Otherwise build in steel. All that being said, more than likely I will end up with a wood boat whether I buy or build. Why? I have a ready recourse of recoverable old growth hardwoods with which to build. I have all of the tools, equipment and knowledge with which to build a wood boat, also lots of time. I like wood and if treated properly it will outlast steel or aluminum by centuries. I live in a barn that was mistreated for decades, it is already 102 years old and will be standing for a very long time, given that there are barns in Europe that have been in continual agricultural use for 700 years. Resale value? Gimme a break the only time resale value is of value is when someone wants to buy your project, it does you no good while you are using it. regards Phil| 7852|7851|2005-05-07 12:31:34|Tim|Re: Aluminum or Steel,|Brush up against something real hard with your wood boat. Go to the tropics, and watch out for worms, unless you are using something like guayacan (sp) which is impervious to wood boring worms. Of course you might find the cost of it is too high because it only grows in a couple of central American countries. Forget to replace the zinc on any boat and you have a mess...... Steel pond for pound is stronger and lighter and the fasteners for wood is now getting as expensive as the wood is. Still I love sailing on wood for extended periods. Steel doesn't have the same feel...... Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:13 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum or Steel, I don't know about anyone else but we have all heard these arguments before, frankly I am sick of them. If I build a metal boat, I will build in steel. Here is why, 1.) I have a local source for steel and no company within 200 miles of my location carries marine grade aluminum. So having it shipped to my building site in lengths suitable for boat building would be expensive in addition to the fact it already costs 3 times as much as steel. 2.) I can build outside, instead of taking more money from my limited budget to build a large enough structure to build a boat in I can just get started on the drive way. 3.) I know how to get good welds on steel, and have inexpensive resources available to help with the welding. 4.) Welding on aluminum has to be gas shielded, gas ain't cheap. The list could go on... So unless you have $20,000(just for the hull material) to sink into a project that you may never finish, go with aluminum. Otherwise build in steel. All that being said, more than likely I will end up with a wood boat whether I buy or build. Why? I have a ready recourse of recoverable old growth hardwoods with which to build. I have all of the tools, equipment and knowledge with which to build a wood boat, also lots of time. I like wood and if treated properly it will outlast steel or aluminum by centuries. I live in a barn that was mistreated for decades, it is already 102 years old and will be standing for a very long time, given that there are barns in Europe that have been in continual agricultural use for 700 years. Resale value? Gimme a break the only time resale value is of value is when someone wants to buy your project, it does you no good while you are using it. regards Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7853|7851|2005-05-07 14:43:07|Phil S.|Re: Aluminum or Steel,|Tim, All good points, but how am I really going to use my creation? With my family obligations I highly doubt I will get much farther south than Virginia, probably not even out of the Great Lakes. Personally I would prefer higher latitudes, fewer people, so sailing in the tropics really isn't a draw for me. I also like cruising rivers and canals so a sail boat wouldn't be all to practical. My significant other has also made it VERY clear that my adventureous ideas about crossing oceans in a small boat will not include her and she isn't about to wait around for weeks wondering if I will show up at my destination. Maybe I wasn't clear all I am saying is take a really good look at how you would actually use your boat. If you are going to go hell bent for leather cruising out of the way places then bulding one of Brent's boats, as designed, in steel is your safest bet and most economical. Fantasy is one thing, maybe a dose of reality would clear things up. It did for me. Regards Phil| 7854|7854|2005-05-07 17:06:31|jfpacuas|Expert welding consultation requested|HI Folks, A few welding questions (partly because I need help, and partly because I want to avoid yet another round of the steel vs. aluminum debate). 7024 rod: Does anyone know a supplier who packages in less than 50 lb. boxes? Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which rod to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and other small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, yes? A fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he didn't have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get this fancy. And a techniques/practice question: I have some recently-discovered time constraints over the next couple of months so little fabrication will take place, but I will continue scrounging and tinkering with various welding positions (self-teaching newbe welder). Is it worth my while to practice the various positions just laying beads on solid metal? I figure it might be easy to steal away and lay some beads for a 1/2 hour instead of spending the time fabricating and not do much welding. Perhaps a few of you current, former, future, or never-want- to-be instructors may have a few tips up your sleeves. Thanks Paul| 7855|7855|2005-05-07 20:13:21|audeojude|Hull Material|there is no perfect hull material when stacked up against mother nature in the form of the sea..... The ocean can punch holes in anything, saltwater can cause electrolyis in steel and aluminum under fairly common circumstances. Fiber glass is fragil if not built heavier than commonly done. wood rots and stuff in the ocean eats it. :( UV degrades it. I looked at titanium and it actually looked good. :) want something that will last forever and is very light? tough to..... Composite carbon fiber with the carbon fiber layed up to a weight equal per sqare ft to steel in one of brents boats :) that sounds good to me to. that would be stronger than steel... hmmm titanium and carbon fiber are kinda expensive though. :( to sum it all up.... it is always going to be a compromise of some sort. Mostly one of money or available resources, but also one of suitability for purpouse. I would probalby rather have aluminum done heavy.... no weight savings :) just tougher.... But most likly I will go with steel as it is more friendly to my skill set and pocket book... though if china doesn't ease up that might change. anyone have some sheets of titanium :) my point being that under different circumstances all the above materials are appropriate and have advantages over all the others. scott carle| 7856|7854|2005-05-07 20:20:19|Henri Naths|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Hi Paul, Yes, .. absolutely. A good venue for practice is check out your local colleges for welding (upgrading) programs. The initial cash out lay may be worthwhile in the long run. A guy can't afford to run his own machine , rods and materials for the price some colleges charge. If time is a factor, some run an evening program.(If they don't get one started) Happy welding Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: 07 May, 2005 3:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Expert welding consultation requested > HI Folks, > > A few welding questions (partly because I need help, and partly > because I want to avoid yet another round of the steel vs. aluminum > debate). > > 7024 rod: Does anyone know a supplier who packages in less than 50 > lb. boxes? > > Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which rod > to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and other > small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, yes? A > fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he didn't > have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such > things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get > this fancy. > > And a techniques/practice question: I have some recently-discovered > time constraints over the next couple of months so little fabrication > will take place, but I will continue scrounging and tinkering with > various welding positions (self-teaching newbe welder). Is it worth > my while to practice the various positions just laying beads on solid > metal? I figure it might be easy to steal away and lay some beads for > a 1/2 hour instead of spending the time fabricating and not do much > welding. Perhaps a few of you current, former, future, or never-want- > to-be instructors may have a few tips up your sleeves. > > Thanks > > Paul > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7857|7855|2005-05-07 21:14:04|seeratlas|Re: Hull Material|I don't think the nature of the problem here is being made clear LOL. There are a ton of different materials that will serve perfectly well as a hull in the open ocean, i.e. as long as you don't hit something....but pardon the pun, 'there's the rub...'... So.. what are we like to be rubbin out there? First? a dock. Rubber fendered? no problem, wood? no problem, steel? problem. Steel wool , try it on aluminum, now add about 2500 more pounds of force and toss in a couple of sharp edges just for fun. Glass boat? shredder, Composite, cheddar...wood? splintered. Ok, so much for docks, how about other boats? bowsprits? Anchors? You'd never drop a 60 pound anchor, maybe a plow? on the deck would you? an aluminum deck? ouch. Glass? uh uh,Composite? same. Ok, now we're steaming along at 7 knots in the fog, and we hit, what, a rock? My dad tried singlehanding my 54 foot glass boat, airex hull, heavily reinforced bow, true ocean boat, best one Stan Huntingford ever drew, his own words, anyway, he caught an adverse current and nosed into a rock jetty at about 3 knots. 15,000.00 US worth of damage and a hole about 3x2. 3 knots..... Now lets take that rock jetty and make it a steel container, with relatively sharp edges, just lying there waiting...Aluminum? please... Glass? been there don't want to do that, Composite? yeah....Swap in a reef. Ok, so where does that leave us? Hey, if you're going to sail where a loud yell for help, a short blast on the boat whistle, or some frantic waving of arms will result in a prompt rescue, then .....glass/ composite, wood, and better, aluminum, would all be just peachy keen. But if you're going to be out in the middle of nowhere, where your life is literally in your own hands..where jumping up and down, yelling and waving your arms will only serve as aerobics instruction,.where there are real obstacles to run into , land on, or run into you....then you make the decision for yourself. Steel may rust, sweat, get hot , get cold, but one thing for certain, its a real sonuvabeeatch to tear up. I like that myself. I like that a lot. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > there is no perfect hull material when stacked up against mother > nature in the form of the sea..... > > The ocean can punch holes in anything, saltwater can cause electrolyis > in steel and aluminum under fairly common circumstances. > > Fiber glass is fragil if not built heavier than commonly done. > > wood rots and stuff in the ocean eats it. :( UV degrades it. > > I looked at titanium and it actually looked good. :) want something > that will last forever and is very light? tough to..... > > Composite carbon fiber with the carbon fiber layed up to a weight > equal per sqare ft to steel in one of brents boats :) that sounds good > to me to. that would be stronger than steel... > > > > hmmm titanium and carbon fiber are kinda expensive though. :( > > > to sum it all up.... it is always going to be a compromise of some > sort. Mostly one of money or available resources, but also one of > suitability for purpouse. > > I would probalby rather have aluminum done heavy.... no weight savings > :) just tougher.... > > But most likly I will go with steel as it is more friendly to my skill > set and pocket book... though if china doesn't ease up that might change. > > anyone have some sheets of titanium :) > > my point being that under different circumstances all the above > materials are appropriate and have advantages over all the others. > > scott carle | 7858|7854|2005-05-08 00:42:21|Paul Cotter|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Thanks Henri, Actually, university courses are free for me, so it even a better deal. Scheduling has been a problem though. I’ll keep up the bead work! Cheers -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Henri Naths Sent: 05/07/2005 4:20 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Expert welding consultation requested Hi Paul, Yes, .. absolutely. A good venue for practice is check out your local colleges for welding (upgrading) programs. The initial cash out lay may be worthwhile in the long run. A guy can't afford to run his own machine , rods and materials for the price some colleges charge. If time is a factor, some run an evening program.(If they don't get one started) Happy welding Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: 07 May, 2005 3:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Expert welding consultation requested > HI Folks, > > A few welding questions (partly because I need help, and partly > because I want to avoid yet another round of the steel vs. aluminum > debate). > > 7024 rod: Does anyone know a supplier who packages in less than 50 > lb. boxes? > > Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which rod > to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and other > small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, yes? A > fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he didn't > have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such > things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get > this fancy. > > And a techniques/practice question: I have some recently-discovered > time constraints over the next couple of months so little fabrication > will take place, but I will continue scrounging and tinkering with > various welding positions (self-teaching newbe welder). Is it worth > my while to practice the various positions just laying beads on solid > metal? I figure it might be easy to steal away and lay some beads for > a 1/2 hour instead of spending the time fabricating and not do much > welding. Perhaps a few of you current, former, future, or never-want- > to-be instructors may have a few tips up your sleeves. > > Thanks > > Paul > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7859|7854|2005-05-08 00:55:49|Tim|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Speaking of Brent's book. I tried to order one and it was not a good site. Anyone have a used book or a good website? Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: jfpacuas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Expert welding consultation requested HI Folks, A few welding questions (partly because I need help, and partly because I want to avoid yet another round of the steel vs. aluminum debate). 7024 rod: Does anyone know a supplier who packages in less than 50 lb. boxes? Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which rod to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and other small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, yes? A fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he didn't have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get this fancy. And a techniques/practice question: I have some recently-discovered time constraints over the next couple of months so little fabrication will take place, but I will continue scrounging and tinkering with various welding positions (self-teaching newbe welder). Is it worth my while to practice the various positions just laying beads on solid metal? I figure it might be easy to steal away and lay some beads for a 1/2 hour instead of spending the time fabricating and not do much welding. Perhaps a few of you current, former, future, or never-want- to-be instructors may have a few tips up your sleeves. Thanks Paul To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7860|7860|2005-05-08 00:55:54|Russ|Opinions needed on Swain 40|Hello All! I'm in need of opinions about a boat I'm considering to purchase. There is a yard in British Columbia called Confidence Boat Builders. They have a Swain 40 design made in aluminum for sale that is just the bare hull. Anyone know the builder or particular design? And for those caring souls that may be concerned that I would be biting off more than I can chew with finishing off a boat; it will be my third. Yes, I realize I have a problem... I'm absolutely sick in the head. The worse part is I just sold my last boat a week ago! SO anyone know about this boat? Thanks!| 7861|7851|2005-05-08 01:13:18|Tim|Re: Aluminum or Steel,|Phil, I have sailed in the northwest and in the tropics. In the northwest, it was stuff in the water and some of it was very large. not counting the very large tides that could drop you onto something rather large. I personally know what it is like to hit the beach behind elephant rock south of cape flattery after a heavy surf generated by an Alaskan bay storm. A steel hull would have weathered it and a wood hull did not. a sail boat with a Pedestal type mast, allows one to lay it down to go under a low bridge. I would not be considering that as I will be in the southern latitudes and the tropics that needs strength there. Also the quiet of a sailboat and not to mention the economy of a sailboat would seem to me to be a question of the need to run under power. I ran under other peoples ships, and while power boats are wonderful, ya got to have the bucks to make it work. Sailing is a flippant lifestyle that doesn't need the bread unless of course you are sailing wood. Still the quiet you endure even in a wooden sailboat is most pleasurable and every woman I have known loves then and enjoys the workings of a sailboat. am I right girls? We can ask my daughters....... Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 11:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum or Steel, Tim, All good points, but how am I really going to use my creation? With my family obligations I highly doubt I will get much farther south than Virginia, probably not even out of the Great Lakes. Personally I would prefer higher latitudes, fewer people, so sailing in the tropics really isn't a draw for me. I also like cruising rivers and canals so a sail boat wouldn't be all to practical. My significant other has also made it VERY clear that my adventureous ideas about crossing oceans in a small boat will not include her and she isn't about to wait around for weeks wondering if I will show up at my destination. Maybe I wasn't clear all I am saying is take a really good look at how you would actually use your boat. If you are going to go hell bent for leather cruising out of the way places then bulding one of Brent's boats, as designed, in steel is your safest bet and most economical. Fantasy is one thing, maybe a dose of reality would clear things up. It did for me. Regards Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7862|7854|2005-05-08 05:55:37|Brent Geery|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|On Sat, 7 May 2005 21:55:51 -0700, "Tim" wrote: > Speaking of Brent's book. I tried to order one and it was not a good site. > Anyone have a used book or a good website? > Tim What "site"? You mail him some money, he sends you a book. No "site" involved! Someone, please post the latest contact and price info for this guy.... -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 7863|7854|2005-05-08 10:39:53|John Fisher|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Brent's address from the origami site is still good. John On Sat, 7 May 2005 21:55:51 -0700, "Tim" wrote: > Speaking of Brent's book. I tried to order one and it was not a good site. > Anyone have a used book or a good website? > Tim What "site"? You mail him some money, he sends you a book. No "site" involved! Someone, please post the latest contact and price info for this guy.... -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7864|7854|2005-05-08 18:05:37|sae140|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Hi Paul > Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which rod > to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and other > small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, yes? A > fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he didn't > have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such > things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get > this fancy. I have next to zero experience with gas welding, but I've heard say that the ol' timers would weld ally together by simply using a reducing flame - which I assume is one in which the fuel is turned up more than usual. Also, if filler was required, a thin strip would simply be cut for this purpose from a scrap sheet of the same alloy. I did see this done once (on the TV) by a guy restoring an old Aston Martin, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable could comment on whether this is common practice - or just 'a trick of the trade' ? Colin| 7866|7777|2005-05-09 09:00:08|Mia|Re: info about Dove III|Hi Mister Swain , thanks for the info I found already much info in the Files price list for plans and book BS-26ft.jpg profile Material List for the 26' , 31' + 36' I would like to know what is included in the 26' and 31 planbundel , can you please give details ? Are the 3 photos I found in the " Black-hulled 26 " Album in Photos , photos of the original 26' or from a stretched version ? Thanks in advance. Mia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > plans for the 26 footer are $200. > The original 26 footer has 8 ft beam and is 26 ft overall. She weighs > 6700 lbs with 1500 lbs of ballast and 320 lbs of steel in the keels. > Dove111 was stretched to 27 ft and the beam was forced out a bit. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mia" wrote: > > Hi Mister Brent Swain , can you give me the Dove III > > specifications , and tell me how much the plan cost is ?? > > Thanks in advance. > > Mia | 7867|7855|2005-05-09 09:14:19|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hull Material|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > Ok, so much for docks, how about other boats? bowsprits? Anchors? > > You'd never drop a 60 pound anchor, maybe a plow? on the deck would > > you? an aluminum deck? ouch. Glass? uh uh,Composite? same. > > We all need to get together and write the folks that manufacture > armored cars. The bastards are manufacturing them from aluminum and > don't know that the only material strong enough to haul your money > around is steel. > Gerald Not only that Gerald, folks are making anti-flak jackets out of some kind of plastic called kevlar. What's wrong with a good old suit of armour made from iron? Regards, Ted| 7868|7777|2005-05-09 12:07:40|Paul Cotter|Re: info about Dove III|HI Mia, I have the plans for the Swain 26. They include plan and profile views, all dimensions for cutting the hull patterns, detailed drawings of mast fittings, mast and boom dimensions, hull lines, keel dimensions, sail plan and sail dimensions, rigging detail, arrangement of deck hardware, and basic materials list for the hull. Hope this helps. Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mia Sent: 05/09/2005 5:00 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: info about Dove III Hi Mister Swain , thanks for the info I found already much info in the Files price list for plans and book BS-26ft.jpg profile Material List for the 26' , 31' + 36' I would like to know what is included in the 26' and 31 planbundel , can you please give details ? Are the 3 photos I found in the " Black-hulled 26 " Album in Photos , photos of the original 26' or from a stretched version ? Thanks in advance. Mia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > plans for the 26 footer are $200. > The original 26 footer has 8 ft beam and is 26 ft overall. She weighs > 6700 lbs with 1500 lbs of ballast and 320 lbs of steel in the keels. > Dove111 was stretched to 27 ft and the beam was forced out a bit. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mia" wrote: > > Hi Mister Brent Swain , can you give me the Dove III > > specifications , and tell me how much the plan cost is ?? > > Thanks in advance. > > Mia To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7869|7854|2005-05-09 13:05:12|richytill|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Try Eutectic Castolin. I use this (same) rod with oxy-acetylene and electric arc. I have welded miles of aluminium pipe with Eutectic and it beats out all the alternitives I have tried to-date. Use a slightly carburizing flame and all the heat you can--go fast. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Paul > > > Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which rod > > to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and other > > small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, yes? A > > fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he didn't > > have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such > > things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get > > this fancy. > > > I have next to zero experience with gas welding, but I've > heard say that the ol' timers would weld ally together by > simply using a reducing flame - which I assume is one in > which the fuel is turned up more than usual. Also, if filler > was required, a thin strip would simply be cut for this purpose > from a scrap sheet of the same alloy. I did see this done once > (on the TV) by a guy restoring an old Aston Martin, but perhaps > someone more knowledgeable could comment on whether this is > common practice - or just 'a trick of the trade' ? > Colin | 7870|7855|2005-05-09 14:54:01|seeratlas|Re: Hull Material|Tsk tsk tsk :) Gerald, they USED to be all steel, now they've gone to aluminum, why? for security? nope, got nothin to do with it. :) Kind of like the democratic "lockbox" on US social security funds, doesn't exist, neither is a current Brink's 'armored' vehicle more than just 'show' :) With a handheld sledge and a good philips screwdriver you can punch right thru the aluminum side of the thing. A few months ago one of em ran off the road and tipped over, the entire side 'tore' open spilling money all over the hillside... The reason they've gone to aluminum? is weight, simple truth is they're trying to save on fuel bills :) hehe seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > Ok, so much for docks, how about other boats? bowsprits? Anchors? > > You'd never drop a 60 pound anchor, maybe a plow? on the deck would > > you? an aluminum deck? ouch. Glass? uh uh,Composite? same. > > We all need to get together and write the folks that manufacture > armored cars. The bastards are manufacturing them from aluminum and > don't know that the only material strong enough to haul your money > around is steel. > Gerald | 7871|7855|2005-05-09 15:09:05|seeratlas|Re: Hull Material|You guys LOL, Kevlar is used precisely BECAUSE it deforms, and in so doing traps the projectile before it intrudes far enough into the body to cause life threatening internal injury. Btw, if you check out class 3 or 4 bodyarmor (that's how its graded, by class) you will find metal or metal/ceramic 'trauma' plates which are inserted into pockets in the kevlar armor covering 'vital' areas....jeez....wonder why that is? Next time you're at the BIG boatshow, walk up to the multi-million dollar baby sailing yachts, pull out your handy little six dollar steel pocketknife and make a motion to draw it across the surface of that '20 times stronger than steel' composite jillion dollar mast. Better get each other's phone numbers first tho, just in case they let you make that phone call from the jailhouse..... Wonder why they be so 'touchy' bout a little scrape? hee heee. This is getting silly. We're talking about abrasion. Take your steel file and head out and get to rubbin on your aluminum mast. then take your aluminum file out and rub a bit on the steel railing. If you still have questions after that...well...buona fortuna :) Like a lot of other things, all these materials make great boat hulls until you hit something or something hits you. Post impact the differences between the materials being discussed will make themselves known in a pretty unambigous manner. If you never plan on hitting anything and can't imagine anything hitting you, hey :) this is all academic. Just remember, the vast majority of collision boating accidents by far do NOT happen somewhere off in the south sea islands... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > > Ok, so much for docks, how about other boats? bowsprits? Anchors? > > > You'd never drop a 60 pound anchor, maybe a plow? on the deck would > > > you? an aluminum deck? ouch. Glass? uh uh,Composite? same. > > > > We all need to get together and write the folks that manufacture > > armored cars. The bastards are manufacturing them from aluminum and > > don't know that the only material strong enough to haul your money > > around is steel. > > Gerald > > Not only that Gerald, folks are making anti-flak jackets out of some > kind of plastic called kevlar. What's wrong with a good old suit of > armour made from iron? > Regards, > Ted | 7872|7855|2005-05-09 15:47:02|Alex Christie|Re: Hull Material|I can certainly see how aluminum yachts by such builders as META in france have been able to make some very tough boats (frameless, and with very thick alu plates), so there is no doubt it is possible, but the main thrust of this group is that most of us are home builders, and working to a budget. The META type boats, well I won't torture myself with desire for one because the cost would be ridiculous for me. We must not lose sight of the money factor in all this, because the purpose here is to go sailing as soon as possible, not get lost in our dreams (of which I am guilty, but am trying to change by building the boat). To put it down straight: I can't afford to lay out the whole shebang at once, and steel allows me to get into the building programme without breaking the bank. It is more of a pay as you go scheme, is one way of looking at it, and it suits my life-style. Besides that, I intend on knocking about some serious places, maybe even extreme South or North, and I need the abrasion resistance that steel offers. Most of us are not in a "cost is no object" proposition, I believe, and steel boats fill that niche. I am projecting around $25,000 to get my boat in the water with the basics (mast, foam, and basic interior, plus a used engine), and don't mind over the years finishing things off while I sail. But to lay that same money out just for the aluminum...I can't see it. It would stop my project dead in its tracks, and what is the point of that? For a smaller boat, like a light trailerable weekender, ballasted centreboard type of sailboat (say, 21'), I think aluminum would be ideal, and the cost of the plate is also reduced because of the small size of the boat. This idea has been percolating in my head for a while -- anyone have a similar idea? I don't hate aluminum, it is a very useful and interesting material, actually, with of course some very different characteristics than steel. BTW, the origamiboats boat-building film is coming along, STILL in editing. Sorry, I'm working to get it out there, but it is a very (very) large task! I didn't set out to become a film-maker, but I am certainly appreciating how much time it takes to hammer out even a short film. Mine is nearly 4 hours long, and will need two DVD's to hold it! Stay tuned. Alex On 9-May-05, at 12:07 PM, seeratlas wrote: > You guys LOL, > Kevlar is used precisely BECAUSE it deforms, and in so doing traps the > projectile before it intrudes far enough into the body to cause life > threatening internal injury. Btw, if you check out class 3 or 4 > bodyarmor (that's how its graded, by class) you will find metal or > metal/ceramic 'trauma' plates which are inserted into pockets in the > kevlar armor covering 'vital' areas....jeez....wonder why that is? > > Next time you're at the BIG boatshow, walk up to the multi-million > dollar baby sailing yachts, pull out your handy little six dollar > steel pocketknife and make a motion to draw it across the surface of > that '20 times stronger than steel' composite jillion dollar mast. > Better get each other's phone numbers first tho, just in case they > let you make that phone call from the jailhouse..... Wonder why they > be so 'touchy' bout a little scrape? hee heee. > > This is getting silly. We're talking about abrasion. Take your steel > file and head out and get to rubbin on your aluminum mast. then take > your aluminum file out and rub a bit on the steel railing. If you > still have questions after that...well...buona fortuna :) > > Like a lot of other things, all these materials make great boat hulls > until you hit something or something hits you. Post impact the > differences between the materials being discussed will make themselves > known in a pretty unambigous manner. > > If you never plan on hitting anything and can't imagine anything > hitting you, hey :) this is all academic. Just remember, the vast > majority of collision boating accidents by far do NOT happen somewhere > off in the south sea islands... > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" >> wrote: >>>> Ok, so much for docks, how about other boats? bowsprits? Anchors? >>>> You'd never drop a 60 pound anchor, maybe a plow? on the deck would >>>> you? an aluminum deck? ouch. Glass? uh uh,Composite? same. >>> >>> We all need to get together and write the folks that manufacture >>> armored cars. The bastards are manufacturing them from aluminum and >>> don't know that the only material strong enough to haul your money >>> around is steel. >>> Gerald >> >> Not only that Gerald, folks are making anti-flak jackets out of some >> kind of plastic called kevlar. What's wrong with a good old suit of >> armour made from iron? >> Regards, >> Ted > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7874|7840|2005-05-09 17:13:16|woodcraftssuch|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > about steel hull only ? > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > - no displacement figures given. > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > Colin Colin, I have a 1971 book by Ian Nicolson, "Small Steel Craft- Design, construction and maintenance" and under small workboats he has a picture and description. "Found in large numbers all over Holland, these double-chined pram-ended work boats are remarkably cheap, long lasting and good load carriers." He goes on comparing this to a wooden Scottish inland loch fishing boat and says "The Dutch boat is of double chine construction, usually of 3 mm steel but sometimes of 2 mm material with an overall length of about 16 feet. It may have frames, but often does not. It has wood thwarts, but is otherwise all steel." He ends up with the understatement "The absence of buoyancy tanks is a regrettable feature of the Dutch boats." I could certainly see how that might be a problem. BTW, I'm curious, did you ever find any more of those little bottles of anthrax? :) Sam| 7875|7854|2005-05-09 17:42:30|jfpacuas|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|Thanks Colin and RT, I'll start monkeying with aluminum welding shortly. Cheers Paul In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Try Eutectic Castolin. I use this (same) rod with oxy-acetylene and > electric arc. I have welded miles of aluminium pipe with Eutectic > and it beats out all the alternitives I have tried to-date. Use a > slightly carburizing flame and all the heat you can--go fast. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > Hi Paul > > > > > Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which > rod > > > to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and > other > > > small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, > yes? A > > > fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he > didn't > > > have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such > > > things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get > > > this fancy. > > > > > > I have next to zero experience with gas welding, but I've > > heard say that the ol' timers would weld ally together by > > simply using a reducing flame - which I assume is one in > > which the fuel is turned up more than usual. Also, if filler > > was required, a thin strip would simply be cut for this purpose > > from a scrap sheet of the same alloy. I did see this done once > > (on the TV) by a guy restoring an old Aston Martin, but perhaps > > someone more knowledgeable could comment on whether this is > > common practice - or just 'a trick of the trade' ? > > Colin | 7877|7855|2005-05-09 18:45:11|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Hull Material|To say that you lack funds for aluminum is just fine. To say that you don't have the skills to work with aluminum and don't want to learn how to fabricate with aluminum is also just fine. To say that aluminum lacks strength is just a lack of understanding! Well, that is unless the only type of aluminum that you know about is the type used for beer cans. Let me clearly state that I have a 39' steel boat, in my shop, that will go into the water in about six months. When this boat goes in the water I will start on a larger boat that will also be built from metal. Gerald| 7878|22|2005-05-09 20:53:57|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /tour du monde en 26 pieds.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Circumnavigation in a 25' Frameless Aluminum Centerboarder You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/tour%20du%20monde%20en%2026%20pieds.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7879|22|2005-05-09 20:56:19|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /FramelessRando1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Frameless Aluminum 25' cruiser You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/FramelessRando1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7880|7855|2005-05-09 21:05:53|Puck III|Re: Hull Material|Hi Gerald , I just uploaded 2 files about the Rando : small boat , small budget , small draft = great voyaging all that in a 25' frameless medium thick aluminum centerboarder . This design sure is easy to convert to Origami , or isn't it ? Posted just for info Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > To say that you lack funds for aluminum is just fine. To say that you > don't have the skills to work with aluminum and don't want to learn how > to fabricate with aluminum is also just fine. To say that aluminum > lacks strength is just a lack of understanding! Well, that is unless > the only type of aluminum that you know about is the type used for beer > cans. > Let me clearly state that I have a 39' steel boat, in my shop, that > will go into the water in about six months. When this boat goes in the > water I will start on a larger boat that will also be built from metal. > Gerald | 7881|7854|2005-05-09 21:23:12|Tim|Re: Expert welding consultation requested|I will try it also. I did some aluminum welding a long time ago with acetylene, like 25 year and with practice, made some nice welds on sheet aluminum including our mail box, till it got creamed with a 67 Volvo. It lost, the Volvo is still running as the bumpers are pure steel....... ----- Original Message ----- From: jfpacuas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 2:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Expert welding consultation requested Thanks Colin and RT, I'll start monkeying with aluminum welding shortly. Cheers Paul In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Try Eutectic Castolin. I use this (same) rod with oxy-acetylene and > electric arc. I have welded miles of aluminium pipe with Eutectic > and it beats out all the alternitives I have tried to-date. Use a > slightly carburizing flame and all the heat you can--go fast. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > Hi Paul > > > > > Gas welding aluminum: Does anyone have a recommendation for which > rod > > > to use when gas welding aluminum? It would be for hatches and > other > > > small projects as per Brent's book. I guess I am just brazing, > yes? A > > > fellow at my local welding shop suggested Welco Cor-Al, but he > didn't > > > have any in stock. He also admitted not knowing a ton about such > > > things. I am under the impression that I don't really have to get > > > this fancy. > > > > > > I have next to zero experience with gas welding, but I've > > heard say that the ol' timers would weld ally together by > > simply using a reducing flame - which I assume is one in > > which the fuel is turned up more than usual. Also, if filler > > was required, a thin strip would simply be cut for this purpose > > from a scrap sheet of the same alloy. I did see this done once > > (on the TV) by a guy restoring an old Aston Martin, but perhaps > > someone more knowledgeable could comment on whether this is > > common practice - or just 'a trick of the trade' ? > > Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7884|7884|2005-05-09 23:55:56|Henri Naths|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|"If a candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but oh my foes and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: 09 May, 2005 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > You know, other countries have a history and politics as well. > Why do the Yankees feel like they have to tell the world about theirs on a > boating forum, or any forum? > Do they think that theirs is the only important politics. > > How many bubbles are there in a bar of soap? This was a competency > question asked of one race only in the US to determine if they had the > right to vote. And that was about 60 years after congress had granted them > the right to vote. > > " We did not deceive the American people but the interpretation of the > intelligence may have been flawed " Sound a bit like something Colin > Powell might say about the weapons that were not found, but that was > McNamara talking about Viet Nam. > > Can we please refrain from talking about American politics. European and > other countries history and politics are much more interesting. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > Ok, I know everyone on the board doesn't want to hear this so i'll > make it short. > > end of story > my apologies for bringing the whole thing up. > seer > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7885|7884|2005-05-10 00:10:43|Michael Casling|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|" My candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but to all my friends and all my foes it cast a lovely light " Nick Osterman, a Montreal collumist, died in 1998 age 58. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" "If a candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but oh my foes and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: 09 May, 2005 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > You know, other countries have a history and politics as well. > Why do the Yankees feel like they have to tell the world about theirs on a > boating forum, or any forum? > Do they think that theirs is the only important politics. > > How many bubbles are there in a bar of soap? This was a competency > question asked of one race only in the US to determine if they had the > right to vote. And that was about 60 years after congress had granted them > the right to vote. > > " We did not deceive the American people but the interpretation of the > intelligence may have been flawed " Sound a bit like something Colin > Powell might say about the weapons that were not found, but that was > McNamara talking about Viet Nam. > > Can we please refrain from talking about American politics. European and > other countries history and politics are much more interesting. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > Ok, I know everyone on the board doesn't want to hear this so i'll > make it short. > > end of story > my apologies for bringing the whole thing up. > seer > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7886|7855|2005-05-10 00:32:36|Puck III|Re: Hull Material - Rando|Politics ? I'd rather go sailing :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Gerald , I just uploaded 2 files about the Rando : > small boat , small budget , small draft = great voyaging > all that in a 25' frameless medium thick aluminum > centerboarder . > This design sure is easy to convert to Origami , > or isn't it ? > Posted just for info > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > To say that you lack funds for aluminum is just fine. To say that > you > > don't have the skills to work with aluminum and don't want to > learn how > > to fabricate with aluminum is also just fine. To say that > aluminum > > lacks strength is just a lack of understanding! Well, that is > unless > > the only type of aluminum that you know about is the type used > for beer > > cans. > > Let me clearly state that I have a 39' steel boat, in my shop, that > > will go into the water in about six months. When this boat goes > in the > > water I will start on a larger boat that will also be built from > metal. > > Gerald | 7887|7855|2005-05-10 11:01:07|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hull Material|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Next time you're at the BIG boatshow, walk up to the multi-million > dollar baby sailing yachts, pull out your handy little six dollar > steel pocketknife and make a motion to draw it across the surface of > that '20 times stronger than steel' composite jillion dollar mast. > Better get each other's phone numbers first tho, just in case they > let you make that phone call from the jailhouse..... Wonder why they > be so 'touchy' bout a little scrape? hee heee. Seer, I guess even steel boat owners would be touchy if you made to scratch the paint with your knife. They would probably even react unfavourably if you went up to their stand and just took out and opened up your pocketknife. I don't think we should try that. There could be a serious humour failure on the part of the authorities. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution (UK) lists their fleet on this web page: www.rnli.org.uk/fleet.asp. These rescue boats put to sea in appalling conditions and are driven hard. They have protected rudders as they expect that the boats might be grounded attempting a rescue. They are built in a variety of materials including steel, aluminium, GRP (FRP) and (FRC) composite. Google "Penlee lifeboat disaster" for information on the conditions these boats operate in. I am building a steel boat because it suits my skill level and building conditions although I appreciate the build cleanliness and light weight of aluminium. Hull material choice has been discussed in great detail now both here and on the Metal Boat Society's forum. When folks get bored with something they can start to to be flippant. Regards, Ted| 7888|7840|2005-05-10 11:01:09|sae140|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > > about steel hull only ? > > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > > - no displacement figures given. > > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > > > Colin > Colin, > I have a 1971 book by Ian Nicolson, "Small Steel Craft- Design, > construction and maintenance" and under small workboats he has a > picture and description. "Found in large numbers all over Holland, > these double-chined pram-ended work boats are remarkably cheap, long > lasting and good load carriers." He goes on comparing this to a > wooden Scottish inland loch fishing boat and says "The Dutch boat is > of double chine construction, usually of 3 mm steel but sometimes of > 2 mm material with an overall length of about 16 feet. It may have > frames, but often does not. It has wood thwarts, but is otherwise all > steel." He ends up with the understatement "The absence of buoyancy > tanks is a regrettable feature of the Dutch boats." I could certainly > see how that might be a problem. BTW, I'm curious, did you ever find > any more of those little bottles of anthrax? :) Sam Hi Sam on one of my idle meanderings around the web, came across The Mullins Metal Stamping Company of Ohio who, around 1906, were apparently stamping out one-piece 9 and 15 foot boats in steel - before turning their efforts towards defence products and auto bodies. But I'm not sure if knocking-out one-piece tin boats really qualifies as 'boat-building' ?? Bottles of anthrax ? Did I miss something ..... ? Colin| 7889|7840|2005-05-10 11:01:21|sae140|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > > about steel hull only ? > > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > > - no displacement figures given. > > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > > > Colin > Colin, > I have a 1971 book by Ian Nicolson, "Small Steel Craft- Design, > construction and maintenance" and under small workboats he has a > picture and description. "Found in large numbers all over Holland, > these double-chined pram-ended work boats are remarkably cheap, long > lasting and good load carriers." He goes on comparing this to a > wooden Scottish inland loch fishing boat and says "The Dutch boat is > of double chine construction, usually of 3 mm steel but sometimes of > 2 mm material with an overall length of about 16 feet. It may have > frames, but often does not. It has wood thwarts, but is otherwise all > steel." He ends up with the understatement "The absence of buoyancy > tanks is a regrettable feature of the Dutch boats." I could certainly > see how that might be a problem. BTW, I'm curious, did you ever find > any more of those little bottles of anthrax? :) Sam Hi Sam on one of my idle meanderings around the web, came across The Mullins Metal Stamping Company of Ohio who, around 1906, were apparently stamping out one-piece 9 and 15 foot boats in steel - before turning their efforts towards defence products and auto bodies. But I'm not sure if knocking-out one-piece tin boats really qualifies as 'boat-building' ?? Bottles of anthrax ? Did I miss something ..... ? Colin| 7890|7840|2005-05-10 11:01:44|Carl Volkwein|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|When I was growing up in the Pittsburgh area (in about the 60's) we had a boat on the Allegheny river, a friend of ours also had a boat there, and on his was a steel jon boat made of sheet steel, and powered by a one cylender "Mightymight" of about 1Hp.. The boat was about 12" long, and was a real chore to launch and recover, as it was carried aboard the mother ship, but boy was it tough, you could run that boat onto anything Carl. woodcraftssuch wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > about steel hull only ? > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > - no displacement figures given. > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > Colin Colin, I have a 1971 book by Ian Nicolson, "Small Steel Craft- Design, construction and maintenance" and under small workboats he has a picture and description. "Found in large numbers all over Holland, these double-chined pram-ended work boats are remarkably cheap, long lasting and good load carriers." He goes on comparing this to a wooden Scottish inland loch fishing boat and says "The Dutch boat is of double chine construction, usually of 3 mm steel but sometimes of 2 mm material with an overall length of about 16 feet. It may have frames, but often does not. It has wood thwarts, but is otherwise all steel." He ends up with the understatement "The absence of buoyancy tanks is a regrettable feature of the Dutch boats." I could certainly see how that might be a problem. BTW, I'm curious, did you ever find any more of those little bottles of anthrax? :) Sam To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7891|7884|2005-05-10 11:02:42|Henri Naths|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|Thanks Michael, I had quoted it from the movie "A river runs thru it".... Nick Osterman eh? I, being from the Montreal area, and although not quite that old, still finds this trivia intriguing. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: 09 May, 2005 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" >" My candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but to all my >friends and all my foes it cast a lovely light " > Nick Osterman, a Montreal collumist, died in 1998 age 58. > > Michael > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Henri Naths > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > "If a candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but oh my > foes and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Casling" > To: > Sent: 09 May, 2005 9:39 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > > You know, other countries have a history and politics as well. > > Why do the Yankees feel like they have to tell the world about theirs > on a > > boating forum, or any forum? > > Do they think that theirs is the only important politics. > > > > How many bubbles are there in a bar of soap? This was a competency > > question asked of one race only in the US to determine if they had the > > right to vote. And that was about 60 years after congress had granted > them > > the right to vote. > > > > " We did not deceive the American people but the interpretation of the > > intelligence may have been flawed " Sound a bit like something Colin > > Powell might say about the weapons that were not found, but that was > > McNamara talking about Viet Nam. > > > > Can we please refrain from talking about American politics. European > and > > other countries history and politics are much more interesting. > > > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:10 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > > > > Ok, I know everyone on the board doesn't want to hear this so i'll > > make it short. > > > > end of story > > my apologies for bringing the whole thing up. > > seer > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7892|7884|2005-05-10 11:35:37|Michael Casling|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|Maybe it was written earlier and Nick just quoted it shortly before his death. Sounds like he would make an interesting crew. Michael ---- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" Thanks Michael, I had quoted it from the movie "A river runs thru it".... Nick Osterman eh? I, being from the Montreal area, and although not quite that old, still finds this trivia intriguing. Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7893|7884|2005-05-10 11:42:54|Bruce Hallman|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|>...the Democrats took every means possible > to defeat the 'lockbox' legislation... > seer Even if the Democrats were 100% united they could *still* not 'defeat' the Republicans who hold the majority. Yet you blame the Democrats for this failure to protect our payroll taxes from being diverted, that is simply illogical. Why are you compelled to twist reality, diverting blame from Republicans, for failing to save our payroll taxes to pay for future Social Security obligations? Instead, Republicans prefer to divert today's surplus of payroll taxes into the 'big pot' so that tax cuts that mainly benefit the rich can be taken out of the 'big pot now'. You can't fairly blame the Democrats for that.| 7894|7884|2005-05-10 12:01:00|Michael Casling|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|On this group we have Yankees, Canadians, Australians, British and several European countries represented. The China effect on the price of steel seems to be on topic. We all realise it is impossible to ignore the US, but if I want to discuss the " lockbox " or the Florida ballot box I will talk to my red neck tractor buddies on an open forum. Anyone care to discuss the deadline for filing land and other claims in NZ, or why it took the rest of the world so long for women to get to vote, or how long will the minority government in Canada last ?? To answer my own questions, I would rather talk about boats and sailing. The starter motor on my 2QM15 Yanmar quit on the weekend after 26 years. Needed brushes and an armature plus labour, $250-. Will put it back on later today. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Hallman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" >...the Democrats took every means possible > to defeat the 'lockbox' legislation... > seer Even if the Democrats were 100% united they could *still* not 'defeat' the Republicans who hold the majority. Yet you blame the Democrats for this failure to protect our payroll taxes from being diverted, that is simply illogical. Why are you compelled to twist reality, diverting blame from Republicans, for failing to save our payroll taxes to pay for future Social Security obligations? Instead, Republicans prefer to divert today's surplus of payroll taxes into the 'big pot' so that tax cuts that mainly benefit the rich can be taken out of the 'big pot now'. You can't fairly blame the Democrats for that. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7895|7884|2005-05-10 12:44:00|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|I would really like to discuss the movement by the people here in Brazil that are without land and trying to grab a piece for themselves. It has become a big problem. However, instead of discussing it here I moved the subject to the bilge of the WoodenBoat forum. They are mostly Americans and love that kind of subject. Mike Och!! Looks like Yanmar charges what ever they want. I paid less than that for a new starter for my 33 HP Yanmar. Maybe we should start an international parts exchange. Gerald| 7896|7896|2005-05-10 13:52:24|dreemer1962|Small steel boats|Small steel boats The Netherlands is the steel boats heaven. They are everywhere, literally in thousands, in all sizes and shapes. There are even still a lot of really ancient ones, built from riveted iron plates, oftenly still powered by equally ancient slow running engines. For the small, open boats, steel actually rules here! The smallest ones are around 3 - 3.5 meter. (That would be 10 -12 ft). Most are chine boats with a flat bottom, but there are also round bilge forms. Many of them have watertight compartments, by the way. Iron was in the beginning used for the workboats, but very quickly spread to the leisure boat building as well. Sailing for pleasure for the masses really developed in the sixties, as in the most other sailing countries. By that time, quite a few professional yards already figured out how to build a cheap sailing boat with accommodation for the masses. The most successful small sailing boat types built in series where Sneekermeer, Domp and Wibo. They were similar to each other, heaving single chine hull form with a boiler punching and concrete ballast in the steel box keel of very moderate draft of around 1.10 m, steel deck, and overall length between 7.40m and 8 m. (23 - 26 ft) overall. These boats were built in hundreds in 60's and 70's. During the seventies, changing economy and tastes shifted to the multi chine shapes and larger boats. During the 80's most of smaller (cabin) sailing boats building stopped. Loan costs are high here, so surviving yards oriented mostly to the high quality, high prices, custom or small series building. I own a Domp 7.7 m for the last six years. With a displacement of about 3,5 tons on that length, you'll understand that her sailing abilities are nothing to brag about, but it's sort of honest boat of predictable behavior, good value for the money, easy too sail. However, for really determined person, there is room for improvement. Deeper, shorter, lower volume lead ballast keel would help, (But then one would loose beer cooling abilities of present wide box keel), carrying more sails on the higher mast, saving weight on the deck, ect. (Even deck hatches are steel). But I will leave her as she is, she's good for pottering around with my wife and 6 year old son. I also previously owned nice, quite fast, lean double ender, (7.2 x 2.0 x 1.1) from the 50's, lightly built from the 1,5 mm galvanized, riveted steel plates with a solid steel keel and plywood deck. She sailed really well. I'll put a few pics in the origamiboats 2, in the files. Milan| 7897|7884|2005-05-10 14:11:25|Bruce Hallman|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|On 5/9/05, Michael Casling wrote: > Why do the Yankees feel like they have to tell the world > about theirs on a boating forum? I agree! Policital *discussion* does not belong on a boat forum. Sorry, I didn't intend to discuss politics. I was challanging a smear. Perhaps we agree that smears [political, racial, national, etc.] don't belong on boat forums? I believe that smears, when made, should not go unchallanged. And, I take it that the term 'Yankee' is not a smear, .| 7898|7896|2005-05-10 14:19:25|dreemer1962|Re: Small steel boats|I forgot to put the link to the pics: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/files/small%20steel%20boats/ Milan| 7899|7855|2005-05-10 14:32:56|..|Re: Hull Material|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > Ok, so much for docks, how about other boats? bowsprits? Anchors? > > You'd never drop a 60 pound anchor, maybe a plow? on the deck would > > you? an aluminum deck? ouch. Glass? uh uh,Composite? same. > > We all need to get together and write the folks that manufacture > armored cars. The bastards are manufacturing them from aluminum and > don't know that the only material strong enough to haul your money > around is steel. > Gerald >Not only that Gerald, folks are making anti-flak jackets out of some >kind of plastic called kevlar. What's wrong with a good old suit of >armour made from iron? >Regards, >Ted The British army has a small fast light weight scout/rec tank which has aluminum armour! Geoff --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7900|7808|2005-05-10 14:33:00|..|Bilge keel tank sumps|Ted, I looked for the photo of your sump in your bilge keel fuel tank but could not find it,there are two photos of your bilge keels lying on there side but no sump. Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Hi all, >I have posted a photo of the sump in one of my bilge keel fuel tanks >in the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ photo section >under Ted & Fiona's Boat Bits. There is also a photo of a slag >chipping dagger made from a bandsaw blade inserted in a zip cut slot >in the end of a bit of flat bar. It is very useful for getting the >last little bits of slag out of far away places. >Regards, >Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7901|7896|2005-05-10 14:46:11|Puck III|Re: Small steel boats|Hi Milan , charming pics you posted ! I think most new build steel boats sold today via Dutch good international merchants , come out of the low labor costs countries like Roumenia , where you see a revival of the former state owned yards , now under Dutch management and ofthen ownership . The Dutch , German & Belgian know how , build up since many years is hard to understand in countries where the steel or aluminum boat is the exception. Well build metal cruising boats are ofthen sold , many many years later for a higher price than they where build for . I wonder why nobody in this group ever discussed the work of the metalstretcher ; the guy that stretches the rear metaldistorsions on thin metal hulls or decks with a blowtorch , a bucket of water and a big brush . Not to much filler needed on such hulls :-) Am I mistaken , thinking many real pretty steal or aluminum hulls are ofthen overlooked in any marina simply cause they look exactly or even better as their glass production sisterships ? On the last Dusseldorf Boatshow , some Turkish build metal boats realy looked great , their extreemly competitive price was a major reason for their sales succes , combined with the fine suny berths awaiting the new owners in Suny Turkish waters ; you can order any size of boat over there Large or Small . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" wrote: > Small steel boats > > The Netherlands is the steel boats heaven. They are everywhere, > literally in thousands, in all sizes and shapes. There are even still > a lot of really ancient ones, built from riveted iron plates, oftenly > still powered by equally ancient slow running engines. For the small, > open boats, steel actually rules here! The smallest ones are around > 3 - 3.5 meter. (That would be 10 -12 ft). Most are chine boats with a > flat bottom, but there are also round bilge forms. Many of them have > watertight compartments, by the way. > > Iron was in the beginning used for the workboats, but very quickly > spread to the leisure boat building as well. Sailing for pleasure for > the masses really developed in the sixties, as in the most other > sailing countries. By that time, quite a few professional yards > already figured out how to build a cheap sailing boat with > accommodation for the masses. The most successful small sailing boat > types built in series where Sneekermeer, Domp and Wibo. They were > similar to each other, heaving single chine hull form with a boiler > punching and concrete ballast in the steel box keel of very moderate > draft of around 1.10 m, steel deck, and overall length between 7.40m > and 8 m. (23 - 26 ft) overall. These boats were built in hundreds in > 60's and 70's. During the seventies, changing economy and tastes > shifted to the multi chine shapes and larger boats. During the 80's > most of smaller (cabin) sailing boats building stopped. Loan costs > are high here, so surviving yards oriented mostly to the high > quality, high prices, custom or small series building. > > I own a Domp 7.7 m for the last six years. With a displacement of > about 3,5 tons on that length, you'll understand that her sailing > abilities are nothing to brag about, but it's sort of honest boat of > predictable behavior, good value for the money, easy too sail. > However, for really determined person, there is room for improvement. > Deeper, shorter, lower volume lead ballast keel would help, (But then > one would loose beer cooling abilities of present wide box keel), > carrying more sails on the higher mast, saving weight on the deck, > ect. (Even deck hatches are steel). But I will leave her as she is, > she's good for pottering around with my wife and 6 year old son. > > I also previously owned nice, quite fast, lean double ender, (7.2 x > 2.0 x 1.1) from the 50's, lightly built from the 1,5 mm galvanized, > riveted steel plates with a solid steel keel and plywood deck. She > sailed really well. > > I'll put a few pics in the origamiboats 2, in the files. > > Milan | 7902|7884|2005-05-10 15:01:21|fmichael graham|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|Who cares??? Bruce Hallman wrote:>...the Democrats took every means possible > to defeat the 'lockbox' legislation... > seer Even if the Democrats were 100% united they could *still* not 'defeat' the Republicans who hold the majority. Yet you blame the Democrats for this failure to protect our payroll taxes from being diverted, that is simply illogical. Why are you compelled to twist reality, diverting blame from Republicans, for failing to save our payroll taxes to pay for future Social Security obligations? Instead, Republicans prefer to divert today's surplus of payroll taxes into the 'big pot' so that tax cuts that mainly benefit the rich can be taken out of the 'big pot now'. You can't fairly blame the Democrats for that. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7903|7884|2005-05-10 15:33:25|peter thompson|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|*First Fig* My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-- It gives a lovely light! -- *Edna St. Vincent Millay * http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/34.html It has been quoted by many but seldom attributed since she wrote it. cheers, peter thompson -- Managing Director, the boatbuilding.community http://boatbuilding.com/ If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable. -Seneca Henri Naths wrote: >Thanks Michael, I had quoted it from the movie "A river runs thru it".... >Nick Osterman eh? I, being from the Montreal area, and although not quite >that old, still finds this trivia intriguing. >Henri >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Casling" >To: >Sent: 09 May, 2005 10:10 PM >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > > >>" My candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but to all my >>friends and all my foes it cast a lovely light " >>Nick Osterman, a Montreal collumist, died in 1998 age 58. >> >>Michael >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >> From: Henri Naths >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:54 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" >> >> >> "If a candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night, but oh my >> foes and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light." >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Casling" >> To: >> Sent: 09 May, 2005 9:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" >> >> >> > You know, other countries have a history and politics as well. >> > Why do the Yankees feel like they have to tell the world about theirs >>on a >> > boating forum, or any forum? >> > Do they think that theirs is the only important politics. >> > >> > How many bubbles are there in a bar of soap? This was a competency >> > question asked of one race only in the US to determine if they had the >> > right to vote. And that was about 60 years after congress had granted >>them >> > the right to vote. >> > >> > " We did not deceive the American people but the interpretation of the >> > intelligence may have been flawed " Sound a bit like something Colin >> > Powell might say about the weapons that were not found, but that was >> > McNamara talking about Viet Nam. >> > >> > Can we please refrain from talking about American politics. European >>and >> > other countries history and politics are much more interesting. >> > >> > Michael >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: seeratlas >> > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:10 PM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" >> > >> > >> > Ok, I know everyone on the board doesn't want to hear this so i'll >> > make it short. >> > >> > end of story >> > my apologies for bringing the whole thing up. >> > seer >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> > >> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> > Service. >> > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >> >> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >>Service. >> >> >> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >__________ NOD32 1.1092 (20050510) Information __________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >http://www.nod32.com > > > > > | 7904|7840|2005-05-10 16:43:38|woodcraftssuch|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Bottles of anthrax ? Did I miss something ..... ? > > Colin Oh come on now Colin, it's on record, fess up. Feb. 5, 2003..United Nations.. holding up a little bottle.. "Saddam Hussein has tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of teaspoons of anthrax. This is evidence, not conjecture. This is true. This is well documented." :) Sam| 7905|7884|2005-05-10 19:50:44|Henri Naths|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|would that be in free trade agreement??? LOL just kidding... H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: 10 May, 2005 10:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" >I would really like to discuss the movement by the people here in > Brazil that are without land and trying to grab a piece for themselves. > It has become a big problem. However, instead of discussing it here I > moved the subject to the bilge of the WoodenBoat forum. They are mostly > Americans and love that kind of subject. > > Mike > Och!! > Looks like Yanmar charges what ever they want. I paid less than that > for a new starter for my 33 HP Yanmar. Maybe we should start an > international parts exchange. > Gerald > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7906|7884|2005-05-10 20:01:35|Michael Casling|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|No smear intended. I used to live in Hawaii. I used to have an AMA licence when I raced bikes on the pavement and have done many trips to the US for that purpose. Also sold enough US made boats in Canada to earn at least one wall star. And these days I stay current on US financial policy as part of my day job. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Hallman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" On 5/9/05, Michael Casling wrote: > Why do the Yankees feel like they have to tell the world > about theirs on a boating forum? I agree! Policital *discussion* does not belong on a boat forum. Sorry, I didn't intend to discuss politics. I was challanging a smear. Perhaps we agree that smears [political, racial, national, etc.] don't belong on boat forums? I believe that smears, when made, should not go unchallanged. And, I take it that the term 'Yankee' is not a smear, . To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7907|7884|2005-05-10 20:06:06|Michael Casling|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|Thanks for that Peter. I should stick to quoting Leonard Cohen. " Everybody knows the boat was leaking, everybody knows the captain lied " Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: peter thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" *First Fig* My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-- It gives a lovely light! -- *Edna St. Vincent Millay * http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/34.html It has been quoted by many but seldom attributed since she wrote it. cheers, peter thompson -- Managing Director, the boatbuilding.community http://boatbuilding.com/ If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable. -Seneca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7908|7884|2005-05-10 20:36:21|Tim|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|Mike, You should have printed that line in a lower case..... Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" Thanks for that Peter. I should stick to quoting Leonard Cohen. " Everybody knows the boat was leaking, everybody knows the captain lied " Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: peter thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" *First Fig* My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-- It gives a lovely light! -- *Edna St. Vincent Millay * http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/34.html It has been quoted by many but seldom attributed since she wrote it. cheers, peter thompson -- Managing Director, the boatbuilding.community http://boatbuilding.com/ If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable. -Seneca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7909|7855|2005-05-11 03:19:40|Brent Geery|Re: Hull Material|On Mon, 09 May 2005 12:46:49 -0700, Alex Christie wrote: > BTW, the origamiboats boat-building film is coming along, STILL in > editing. Sorry, I'm working to get it out there, but it is a very > (very) large task! I didn't set out to become a film-maker, but I am > certainly appreciating how much time it takes to hammer out even a > short film. Mine is nearly 4 hours long, and will need two DVD's to > hold it! Stay tuned. > > Alex Hi Alex, Is your video going to cover only building the hull? What about fit out? Maybe a second video could cover these things? Finishing the interior is probably the biggest stumbling block to building a metal boat, with little help out there. Can't wait till you get your video done! -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 7910|7808|2005-05-11 03:32:33|edward_stoneuk|Re: Bilge keel tank sumps|Geoff, I think you are in looking in the wrong place. The sump photos are in > >the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/ photo section > >under Ted & Fiona's Boat Bits. The keel photos you have seen are in this forum the other photos are in origamiboats2 the overflow section. Regards, Ted| 7911|7896|2005-05-11 03:46:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: Small steel boats|I agree Ben, they are lovely little boats. I knew the Dutch built more steel pleasure boats than anybody else but was unaware that they built so many small ones. I think that "yacht" is a Dutch word so perhaps it should not be a suprise. Your mention of metal stretching using heat and water was interesting. I have tried it with varying degrees of success. The power of steel as it heats and expands or cools and contracts is astonishing and it is quite easy to overdo it. Regards, Ted| 7912|7855|2005-05-11 08:05:19|Henri Naths|Re: Hull Material|Hi Alex It should be very interesting. Would be also interesting to note how many hrs. it takes to produce such a film. Cheerfully, Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Geery" To: Sent: 11 May, 2005 1:19 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material > On Mon, 09 May 2005 12:46:49 -0700, Alex Christie > wrote: > >> BTW, the origamiboats boat-building film is coming along, STILL in >> editing. Sorry, I'm working to get it out there, but it is a very >> (very) large task! I didn't set out to become a film-maker, but I am >> certainly appreciating how much time it takes to hammer out even a >> short film. Mine is nearly 4 hours long, and will need two DVD's to >> hold it! Stay tuned. >> >> Alex > > Hi Alex, > > Is your video going to cover only building the hull? What about fit > out? Maybe a second video could cover these things? Finishing the > interior is probably the biggest stumbling block to building a metal > boat, with little help out there. Can't wait till you get your video > done! > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7913|7840|2005-05-11 09:29:30|Jim Phillips|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|In the museum in Brisbane, Australia, you can see a 12' steel boat that did a solo circumnavigation - no room for crew! Quite amazing. I was at the Eagle St wharf when he returned in 1986. sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > > But it got me thinking - what IS the smallest > > boat known to built in steel ? The Swain 26 may > > be the smallest *all-steel* boat (?), but what > > about steel hull only ? > > Maybe Wm Atkin's Liza Jane is a contender at > > 19'8" (17'6" LWL) ? It's a single chine frameless > > - no displacement figures given. > > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/LizaJane.html > > > > Anyone know of a smaller steel-hulled boat ? > > > > Colin > Colin, > I have a 1971 book by Ian Nicolson, "Small Steel Craft- Design, > construction and maintenance" and under small workboats he has a > picture and description. "Found in large numbers all over Holland, > these double-chined pram-ended work boats are remarkably cheap, long > lasting and good load carriers." He goes on comparing this to a > wooden Scottish inland loch fishing boat and says "The Dutch boat is > of double chine construction, usually of 3 mm steel but sometimes of > 2 mm material with an overall length of about 16 feet. It may have > frames, but often does not. It has wood thwarts, but is otherwise all > steel." He ends up with the understatement "The absence of buoyancy > tanks is a regrettable feature of the Dutch boats." I could certainly > see how that might be a problem. BTW, I'm curious, did you ever find > any more of those little bottles of anthrax? :) Sam Hi Sam on one of my idle meanderings around the web, came across The Mullins Metal Stamping Company of Ohio who, around 1906, were apparently stamping out one-piece 9 and 15 foot boats in steel - before turning their efforts towards defence products and auto bodies. But I'm not sure if knocking-out one-piece tin boats really qualifies as 'boat-building' ?? Bottles of anthrax ? Did I miss something ..... ? Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7914|7896|2005-05-11 11:46:25|dreemer1962|Re: Small steel boats|Hi Ben You are right, many yards transferred a big part of building to the cheaper places and usually, detailing is done in The Netherlands. But there are still yards whoe are building at home. Many specialized, some for example are building just hulls, others just interiors e.c.t. Metalstretchers - they were mentioned by Gerd. It seems that French strechers use beer insted of water! I think that I like French way more. Just kidding, I never actualy saw streching in practice... Overlooked metal boats - yes, they are oftenly mistaken.for the fiberglass. Turkish boat builders - I know a little bit their wooden gulets, wasn't awere that they are good with a metal too. Do you have some links maybe? Ted, you are right word "yacht" is of Dutch origin. Yachting, (for the rich), was actually introduced to Britain by the Dutch, some time during the XVII century, don't remember details of the story, have to check the info. Although luxury to be able to waste time and money having fun on the water, is relatively recent development for the ordinary people, in The Netherlands as in the other places, because of the proximity of the water every where, much higher percentage of the population had a boating skills here, then in the most other countries. It was for very long time only way to travel and move goods. Another few pics of old small steel tugs. They look as toys, but they were serious working boats, helping manoevering big, enginless sailing barges in narow passages, canals, locks and such. Many survived and these theys are used for fun. Most of them are powered by old thumpers. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/files/small%20steel% 20boats/small%20tugs/ Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Milan , charming pics you posted ! > > I think most new build steel boats sold today via Dutch > good international merchants , come out of the low labor costs > countries like Roumenia , where you see a revival of the > former state owned yards , now under Dutch management and > ofthen ownership . > > The Dutch , German & Belgian know how , build up since > many years is hard to understand in countries where the steel > or aluminum boat is the exception. > Well build metal cruising boats are ofthen sold , many many > years later for a higher price than they where build for . > > I wonder why nobody in this group ever discussed the work > of the metalstretcher ; the guy that stretches the rear > metaldistorsions on thin metal hulls or decks with > a blowtorch , a bucket of water and a big brush . > Not to much filler needed on such hulls :-) > > Am I mistaken , thinking many real pretty steal or aluminum > hulls are ofthen overlooked in any marina simply cause > they look exactly or even better as their glass production > sisterships ? > > On the last Dusseldorf Boatshow , some Turkish build metal > boats realy looked great , their extreemly competitive price > was a major reason for their sales succes , combined with > the fine suny berths awaiting the new owners in Suny > Turkish waters ; you can order any size of boat over there > Large or Small . > > Old Ben > | 7915|7840|2005-05-11 12:27:24|sae140|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > Bottles of anthrax ? Did I miss something ..... ? > > > > Colin > > Oh come on now Colin, it's on record, fess up. Feb. 5, 2003..United > Nations.. holding up a little bottle.. "Saddam Hussein has tens upon > tens upon tens of thousands of teaspoons of anthrax. This is evidence, > not conjecture. This is true. This is well documented." :) Sam Guess I walked into that one .... 2003 ? - and there's me thinking something had happened whilst I was out at lunch Each country gets it's own particular brand of b/s from politicians - I don't remember anthrax being emphasized over here - maybe this has something to do with us having a small island off the Scottish west coast filthy with the stuff from weapons testing ... Churchill was planning on using anthrax during WWII. If people are told anthrax is dangerous stuff, they might just start insisting that we clean-up our own back yard as well ! We were fed a diet of WMD - nothing specific - but thought to include anthrax, botulinum toxin, sarin, cyclosarin, VX and mustard gas. Oh, and some weapons-grade uranium as well .... Plus the stuff "we're not sure of .." BTW - if anyone thinks that European politics is interesting ... try this: In last week's election, Tony Blair and the New Labour Party were elected back into power with just 35.2% of the vote. Only 21.6% of the eligible electorate voted for this guy and his party. But of course Blair is still claiming a mandate from the people to rule the country. (Source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/ constituencies/default.stm ) Apparently, this farce is called representational democracy. Back to boats ..... Colin| 7916|7840|2005-05-11 12:55:47|Tim|Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ?|http://truemajority.kintera.org/bensbbs ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ain't prejudice a bitch ? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > Bottles of anthrax ? Did I miss something ..... ? > > > > Colin > > Oh come on now Colin, it's on record, fess up. Feb. 5, 2003..United > Nations.. holding up a little bottle.. "Saddam Hussein has tens upon > tens upon tens of thousands of teaspoons of anthrax. This is evidence, > not conjecture. This is true. This is well documented." :) Sam Guess I walked into that one .... 2003 ? - and there's me thinking something had happened whilst I was out at lunch Each country gets it's own particular brand of b/s from politicians - I don't remember anthrax being emphasized over here - maybe this has something to do with us having a small island off the Scottish west coast filthy with the stuff from weapons testing ... Churchill was planning on using anthrax during WWII. If people are told anthrax is dangerous stuff, they might just start insisting that we clean-up our own back yard as well ! We were fed a diet of WMD - nothing specific - but thought to include anthrax, botulinum toxin, sarin, cyclosarin, VX and mustard gas. Oh, and some weapons-grade uranium as well .... Plus the stuff "we're not sure of .." BTW - if anyone thinks that European politics is interesting ... try this: In last week's election, Tony Blair and the New Labour Party were elected back into power with just 35.2% of the vote. Only 21.6% of the eligible electorate voted for this guy and his party. But of course Blair is still claiming a mandate from the people to rule the country. (Source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/ constituencies/default.stm ) Apparently, this farce is called representational democracy. Back to boats ..... Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7917|7855|2005-05-11 16:22:49|Brent Geery|Re: Hull Material|On Wed, 11 May 2005 06:04:34 -0600, "Henri Naths" wrote: > From: "Brent Geery" > > On Mon, 09 May 2005 12:46:49 -0700, Alex Christie > > wrote: > > > >> BTW, the origamiboats boat-building film is coming along, STILL in > >> editing. Sorry, I'm working to get it out there, but it is a very > >> (very) large task! I didn't set out to become a film-maker, but I am > >> certainly appreciating how much time it takes to hammer out even a > >> short film. Mine is nearly 4 hours long, and will need two DVD's to > >> hold it! Stay tuned. > >> > >> Alex > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > Is your video going to cover only building the hull? What about fit > > out? Maybe a second video could cover these things? Finishing the > > interior is probably the biggest stumbling block to building a metal > > boat, with little help out there. Can't wait till you get your video > > done! > > Hi Alex > It should be very interesting. Would be also interesting to note how many > hrs. it takes to produce such a film. > Cheerfully, > Henri Probably more than it takes to build the boat! :-/ -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)| 7918|7855|2005-05-11 17:55:03|Alex Christie|Fitting Out video|Re -- video of hull fit-out; definitely I'll be documenting that one to make another DVD, and I will try and fit in the rudiments of rigging one of the boats as well (for actual informed information on rigging see Brion Toss' videos on rigging). Alex On 11-May-05, at 12:19 AM, Brent Geery wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Is your video going to cover only building the hull?  What about fit > out?  Maybe a second video could cover these things?  Finishing the > interior is probably the biggest stumbling block to building a metal > boat, with little help out there.  Can't wait till you get your video > done! > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7919|7919|2005-05-11 19:15:07|Puck III|Re : Small steel boats|Hi Milan , just the Links to Agantur , they changed their website focusing on larger boats now , but they have MacSurf in house and can build anything to your specs with EU certification. http://www.agantur.com/kgulet_steps.html to see a small steel build http://www.agantur.com/index.html new homepage "Steel boatbuilding Turkey" in Google will give you more :-) Take a sailing holiday in Turkey , you could rent a boat from http://www.occyachting.com ( owned and extreemly well managed by Dutchman Klaas Broodwinner & son ) and see how beautifull the Islands around Goçek and Fetye realy are. Old Ben can recommend OCC since more than 25 years :-) Their Frans Maas designed 27 & JM Finot designed 29 ( Old Ben build for many years :-) are fine cruisers for the area. Regards from Belgium| 7920|7919|2005-05-11 19:25:50|Puck III|Re : Small steel boats|Hi Milan , just the Links to Agantur , they changed their website focusing on larger boats now , but they have MacSurf in house and can build anything to your specs with EU certification. http://www.agantur.com/kgulet_steps.html to see a small steel build http://www.agantur.com/index.html new homepage "Steel boatbuilding Turkey" in Google will give you more :-) Take a sailing holiday in Turkey , you could rent a boat from http://www.occyachting.com ( owned and extreemly well managed by Dutchman Klaas Broodwinner & son ) and see how beautifull the Islands around Goçek and Fetye realy are. Old Ben can recommend OCC since more than 25 years :-) Their Frans Maas designed 27 & JM Finot designed 29 ( Old Ben build for many years :-) are fine cruisers for the area. Regards from Belgium| 7921|7884|2005-05-11 21:44:13|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|"Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied" If you leave out the "thats" it completely destroys the cadence. This is one of his masterpieces. Show a little respect! Michael Casling wrote: >Thanks for that Peter. >I should stick to quoting Leonard Cohen. >" Everybody knows the boat was leaking, everybody knows the captain lied " >Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: peter thompson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 9:00 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" > > > *First Fig* > > My candle burns at both ends; > It will not last the night; > But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-- > It gives a lovely light! > > -- *Edna St. Vincent Millay * > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/34.html > > It has been quoted by many but seldom attributed since she wrote it. > cheers, > peter thompson > > -- > Managing Director, the boatbuilding.community > http://boatbuilding.com/ > If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable. > -Seneca > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 7922|7884|2005-05-12 00:53:07|Michael Casling|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|The correct words are: " Everybody knows that the boat is leaking. Everybody knows the captain lied. My apologies. " My friends are gone and my hair is grey. I ache in the places where I used to play " Leonard Cohen. For all the non Canadians and non LC fans this guy is a national treasure in Canada, he used to be a dirty young man, and now he is a dirty old man but us LC fans do not care. Many others sing his songs. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale J. Robertson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull Material "lockbox" "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied" If you leave out the "thats" it completely destroys the cadence. This is one of his masterpieces. Show a little respect! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7923|7884|2005-05-12 04:42:52|sae140|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Leonard Cohen. > For all the non Canadians and non LC fans this guy is a national treasure in Canada, Leonard Cohen's work - you either love it or hate it - a bit like Marmite (UK trademark). So c'mon - who's gonna explain Marmite to those who don't know ? Keep it clean Colin| 7924|7884|2005-05-12 04:50:12|sae140|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > > Leonard Cohen. > > For all the non Canadians and non LC fans this guy is a national > treasure in Canada, > > Leonard Cohen's work - you either love it or hate it > - a bit like Marmite (UK trademark). > > So c'mon - who's gonna explain Marmite to those who > don't know ? Keep it clean > > Colin Just in case anyone thinks a post about Marmite is non-boating related .... IMO, no cruising boat inventory is complete without several jars of Marmite on board. This stuff can be traded like gold to UK ex-pats. | 7925|7896|2005-05-12 08:12:08|Sugar|Re: Small steel boats|Nice write-up. I enjoyed reading it. :) Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" wrote: > Small steel boats > > The Netherlands is the steel boats heaven. They are everywhere, > literally in thousands, in all sizes and shapes. There are even still > a lot of really ancient ones, built from riveted iron plates, oftenly > still powered by equally ancient slow running engines. For the small, > open boats, steel actually rules here! The smallest ones are around > 3 - 3.5 meter. (That would be 10 -12 ft). Most are chine boats with a > flat bottom, but there are also round bilge forms. Many of them have > watertight compartments, by the way. > > Iron was in the beginning used for the workboats, but very quickly > spread to the leisure boat building as well. Sailing for pleasure for > the masses really developed in the sixties, as in the most other > sailing countries. By that time, quite a few professional yards > already figured out how to build a cheap sailing boat with > accommodation for the masses. The most successful small sailing boat > types built in series where Sneekermeer, Domp and Wibo. They were > similar to each other, heaving single chine hull form with a boiler > punching and concrete ballast in the steel box keel of very moderate > draft of around 1.10 m, steel deck, and overall length between 7.40m > and 8 m. (23 - 26 ft) overall. These boats were built in hundreds in > 60's and 70's. During the seventies, changing economy and tastes > shifted to the multi chine shapes and larger boats. During the 80's > most of smaller (cabin) sailing boats building stopped. Loan costs > are high here, so surviving yards oriented mostly to the high > quality, high prices, custom or small series building. > > I own a Domp 7.7 m for the last six years. With a displacement of > about 3,5 tons on that length, you'll understand that her sailing > abilities are nothing to brag about, but it's sort of honest boat of > predictable behavior, good value for the money, easy too sail. > However, for really determined person, there is room for improvement. > Deeper, shorter, lower volume lead ballast keel would help, (But then > one would loose beer cooling abilities of present wide box keel), > carrying more sails on the higher mast, saving weight on the deck, > ect. (Even deck hatches are steel). But I will leave her as she is, > she's good for pottering around with my wife and 6 year old son. > > I also previously owned nice, quite fast, lean double ender, (7.2 x > 2.0 x 1.1) from the 50's, lightly built from the 1,5 mm galvanized, > riveted steel plates with a solid steel keel and plywood deck. She > sailed really well. > > I'll put a few pics in the origamiboats 2, in the files. > > Milan | 7926|7919|2005-05-12 11:16:28|dreemer1962|Re: Re : Small steel boats|Hi Old Ben, Thanks for the links, impressive looking boats gets built there! It seems that Turkish boat building is steaming full speed on the right course. Thanks for reminding me of OCC, their base in Naarden is not far from where I Iive, I might have a look one of these days. Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Milan , just the Links to Agantur , they changed their website > focusing on larger boats now , but they have MacSurf in house > and can build anything to your specs with EU certification. > http://www.agantur.com/kgulet_steps.html > to see a small steel build > http://www.agantur.com/index.html > new homepage > > "Steel boatbuilding Turkey" in Google will give you more :-) > > Take a sailing holiday in Turkey , you could rent a boat from > http://www.occyachting.com ( owned and extreemly well > managed by Dutchman Klaas Broodwinner & son ) and see how > beautifull the Islands around Goçek and Fetye realy are. > Old Ben can recommend OCC since more than 25 years :-) > Their Frans Maas designed 27 & JM Finot designed 29 > ( Old Ben build for many years :-) are fine cruisers for the area. > > Regards from Belgium | 7927|7884|2005-05-12 14:12:58|fmichael graham|Re: Hull Material "lockbox"|LOL. Yeaaaah, I don't think so. A bit of a stretch to tie Cohen to origami-related, through marmite. Which begs the question; If Elvis were alive today, would he prefer a steel or aluminum Swain? & would it have a blue suede interior? Mike sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > > Leonard Cohen. > > For all the non Canadians and non LC fans this guy is a national > treasure in Canada, > > Leonard Cohen's work - you either love it or hate it > - a bit like Marmite (UK trademark). > > So c'mon - who's gonna explain Marmite to those who > don't know ? Keep it clean > > Colin Just in case anyone thinks a post about Marmite is non-boating related .... IMO, no cruising boat inventory is complete without several jars of Marmite on board. This stuff can be traded like gold to UK ex-pats. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7928|7928|2005-05-12 14:30:50|Earl Burgess|Re: Marmite|It is a yeast extract; made from the stuff left over after making beer. Used as a very thin spread on toast or to flavor soup. It is made up of yeast, sugar, salt, wheatgerm extract, mineral salt (508), colour (caramel), herbs, spices and vitamins (niacin, thiamin, riboflavin). Earl So c'mon - who's gonna explain Marmite to those who > > don't know ? Keep it clean > > > > Colin | 7929|7929|2005-05-13 03:41:19|sae140|TouchCAD|Anyone used TouchCAD yet ? http://www.touchcad.com/tc3news35.html Has a Stretch-unfold plate feature. Colin| 7930|7777|2005-05-13 18:48:57|brentswain38|Re: info about Dove III|Plans include hull lines , plate shapes, sail plan, structural,detail drawings, mast and fittings, deck layout, sails, keel rudder and skeg ,ballast , etc.Everything you need to build the boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mia" wrote: > Hi Mister Swain , thanks for the info > > I found already much info in the Files > price list for plans and book > BS-26ft.jpg profile > Material List for the 26' , 31' + 36' > I would like to know what is included in > the 26' and 31 planbundel , can you > please give details ? > > Are the 3 photos I found in the > " Black-hulled 26 " Album in Photos , > photos of the original 26' or from > a stretched version ? > > Thanks in advance. > Mia > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > plans for the 26 footer are $200. > > The original 26 footer has 8 ft beam and is 26 ft overall. She > weighs > > 6700 lbs with 1500 lbs of ballast and 320 lbs of steel in the > keels. > > Dove111 was stretched to 27 ft and the beam was forced out a > bit. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mia" > wrote: > > > Hi Mister Brent Swain , can you give me the Dove III > > > specifications , and tell me how much the plan cost is ?? > > > Thanks in advance. > > > Mia | 7931|7809|2005-05-13 18:56:36|brentswain38|Re: origami magic|I used the T on my head intake pipe. It makes it easy to clean when barnacles start to grow in it. It also makes it easy to check the inside of the pipe while in the water. A pipe union also works well and is easy to undo. Plugs would be harder to use than a ball valve and thus would be used less, some times not used when they should. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Brent, > I was thinking about the long vertical standpipe idea. My thought was that > the top of the standpipe could be open and use an expanding pipe plug to > close it. Connect your hose to the stand pipe with a tee on the side. To > close off the standpipe right at the hull you could push the expanding plug > down past the side tee opening and tighten it back up. This would allow you > to remove and service hoses or just keep the marine growth out of the > standpipe when not in use for extended periods. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami magic > > > > You must have an incredible selection of tropical hardwoods available > > for cheap in the Pillipines as well. > > ABS certifies fibreglass boats as well. Get your self an ABS > > certified fibreglass boat and we'll have a demolition derby with one > > of my steel non approved bulkheadles origami boats .So much for ABS. > > I was also told that ABS requires plastic thru hulls on metal boats. > > So much for ABS. > > LLoyds insists on stainless keel bolts for woden boats. Stainless > > keel bolts suffer from extremely rapid crevice corrosion when in wet > > wood. So much for Lloyds. > > Span in frames is only one issue. Shape has a major bearing on > > strength , Frames have none, longitudinals are portions of an arc, > > and thus much stronger for a given length .The severe torture tests > > that my boats have survived clearly show the lack of any structural > > need for bulkheads. What extreme torture tests have your boats had? > > Too big a boat has sunk more cruising dreams than all other causes > > combined. I heard that Greg, one of your clients ,is bailing out, due > > to excessive costs. > > I got my current 31 footer sailing in 1984 for under $6,000 as that > > was all the money that I had at the time.The boat has fitted my needs > > perfectly since then. Could I have built a 50 ft aluminium boat for > > that? Last time I checked ,the aluminium alone for a 31 footer , > > laying on the ground, cost nearly three times that much, before even > > starting to build. > > Speed , to be realistic , has to include the time building > > aquiring, and paying for a boat as well as the passage times. > > Initialy, one can build in just a bunk, head and galley, then go > > cruising. The rest can be done later , at one's liesure. This > > approach, giving oneself lots of time to decide what one wants, > > results in a better boat for less effort. > > Lately I've been using sch 40 SS standpipes to above the waterline > > for thru hulls, greatly reducing the liklihood of a boat sinking from > > fitting failures. One of the great advantages of metal construction > > is that thru hulls don't have to be at right angles to the hull. This > > lets us run such standpipes parallell to bulkheads , thus making them > > more practical from a space standpoint. > > The downwind side of any ocean has always been an excellent place to > > shop for a used boat. When people get home sick , burned out and > > broke, boats can be had for real cheap, as long as you are willing to > > settle for whatever is available. If you insist on a good metal hull > > of your own construction, some of these boats sell for a fraction the > > price of the goodies aboard. You could sail one home and transfer the > > goodies to your next hull, if customs doesn't ask too much. > > I agree that aluminium makes the best hatches possible. If I were > > very rich and starting a boat I would seriously consider aluminium > > for everything from the decks up. This is becoming much more > > common.Such superstructures could be buiolt inside, out of the wind, > > in a much smaller space than required for the hull. This would enable > > one to build the aluminium part in the sheltered conditions it > > demands, and do the steel hull outside. > > Given the problems finding suitable antifouling paint and other > > underwater corrosion problems and the weakness of welds and the > > trickiness of getting really good welds on aluminium, I wouldn't even > > consider anything but steel for the hull and sidedecks. > > With the new steel prices, scrap aluminium pipe is probably cheaper > > than new steel for the mast. One client , successfully bolted > > galvanized fittings on his aluminium mast , enabling him to do it all > > with a buzzbox. > > My book tells you how to build a watermaker with a pressure washer > > pump. The General TT911 has ceramic plungers , is reasonably cheap, > > and works well. Wolf had a demonstration model working at the last > > Vancouver boat show. > > Maintenance on my steel boat is about an hour or two a year, far > > less than the difference in price between steel and aluminium. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> > >> Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. I'm > > off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our > > boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group before > > next fall. > >> > >> Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on the > > Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was inspired > > by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and > > converted to triple chine origami. > >> > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > >> > >> At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, which > > is now under construction in our yard. > >> > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > >> > >> We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to > > start construction on one or both over the summer. > >> > >> At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami > > relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in > > the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in shallow > > water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were fine. > > Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, > > dismastings, and sinkings. > >> > >> One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important > > pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a > > result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a few > > strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one of > > the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a > > shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > >> > >> While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it is > > rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 scope > > to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. While > > Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal > > bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even > > squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with little > > or no room to drag. > >> > >> We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched to > > a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure > > location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than moving > > the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The > > Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > >> > >> I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising > > Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by > > the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a > > great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. > > Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a > > different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy > > with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to origami. > >> > >> The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple > > formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and sale) > > by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in > > mind. > >> > >> The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons > > displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer being > > beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the same > > to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but it > > will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. > > Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch a > > better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will likely be > > more fun when out on the water. > >> > >> The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very long, > > lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a > > short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed to > > building boats that look like production boats, which have very > > different economics than origami. > >> > >> Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a > > length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, > > resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better > > approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, > > design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then > > build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate this. > >> > >> It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot hull, > > with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, than > > to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you try > > and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up > > fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be > > simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, squat > > 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to finish, > > the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build both > > boats with the same given interior. > >> > >> For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double > > berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after another > > down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull > > you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double up > > somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the > > galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much simpler > > and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its > > own privacy. > >> > >> Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline length, > > the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. > > Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up > > exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. However, > > with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than > > smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A longer > > hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the hull, > > you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., > > etc., which is what takes the time. > >> > >> I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the origami > > technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat > > building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an opportunity to > > meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with over > > the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all > > long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and not > > one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high budget > > boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are > > not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost labor in > > Asia to build the boats they really want. > >> > >> I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy > > cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above the > > waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not present a > > great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was sailing > > aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate > > primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting is > > not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons > > should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily > > oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then > > follow with the acid wash. > >> > >> I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long time > > friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He has > > a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in > > partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience > > worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready > > supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to > > produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home builder to > > build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For > > example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was > > roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe > > you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > >> > >> While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard > > Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This is a > > 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished boat, > > all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building yard > > converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment > > the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > >> > >> This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, dinghys, > > doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for years > > without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be applied to > > building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock and > > look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live aboard > > and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, invariably a > > steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative > > impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to buy > > used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in > > steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are steel > > mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > >> > >> With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in SE > > Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy now > > costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. Once > > other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. The > > yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from building > > steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even > > when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of > > steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made > > alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. > > However, this may well be changing. > >> > >> While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one of > > the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of > > the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the latest > > electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was AC/DC, > > CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do > > MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the 300 > > amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more honest > > rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye > > open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down > > dramatically in price. > >> > >> Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that have > > built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you are > > going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must have > > ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of > > steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > >> > >> One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior > > bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making > > the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof > > bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and > > beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an Irwin > > 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One morning > > the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps were > > unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the dock by > > its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it could > > sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was $10,000 > > US as is, where is. No insurance. > >> > >> I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save the > > boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I > > know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, it > > would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple enough > > to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise the > > roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat > > with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with your > > boat on the bottom. > >> > >> Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami > > construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a > > simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats > > meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami > > boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, will > > be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The reason > > for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is > > structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because the > > strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it > > span. > >> > >> Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, running > > the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if > > they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal > > framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized > > transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal > > framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at > > intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span length. > >> > >> Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times > > stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames 9 > > times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is 16 > > times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve to > > make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the bulkheads > > can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by > > fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily equal > > or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can > > be "unsinkable" as well. > >> > >> It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we > > should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. There > > is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk of > > someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull over > > and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based on a > > very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is overly > > strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats to > > his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should > > significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with family > > and friends aboard, I feel the same. > >> > >> As has often been said on this group by others, look at the person > > giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first > > went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years > > sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to pay > > the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the > > way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental > > income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly income > > and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, where I > > want. > >> > >> My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. > > Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never go > > cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a time, > > or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you > > something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how to > > do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. Every > > minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the rest > > of your life you will have to go cruising. > >> > >> I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our > > web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone wishing > > to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> > >> PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right > > now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 thousand > > US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. There > > are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be > > cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living is > > almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe and > > sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go cruising > > there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7932|7932|2005-05-13 19:00:34|brentswain38|alternator welding|I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large diode in the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from dammage to some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes in two heat sinks. Brent| 7933|7787|2005-05-13 19:13:37|brentswain38|Re: Shady Business :-)|I heard an article on CBC where someone had developed a way to extend the mould fighting characteristics of calcium carbonate indefinitly. It normally works for a short time only. This stuff, if added to paint ,used on an air duct ,killed all of the bacteria in the first few feet. For storing charts, books ,winter clothes, etc at sea in the tropics, put them in plastic garbage bags with mothballs. They may be a bit smelly when you take them out, but an hour or two in the wind takes care of that.It all evaporates quickly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > Ted, > Canestan and its replacement Hexal Clotreme --- now that is essential when > the crotch rot / jock itch sets in!! > We have been here 10 years and the first year when I got a patch, I actually > went to the doc. thinking "What the hell is this?" > His diagnosis and advice was short and to the point " To avoid crotch rot, > wear loose fitting pants or no underclothes at all " > Mould in boats is not yet a problem for me, and it is strange how some house > surfaces grow it quickly and others don't seem to have any at all. Mould > seems to ignore the "anti mould" words on some interior paint cans as well. > Regards, > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 04:22 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) | 7934|7809|2005-05-13 19:21:46|brentswain38|Re: origami magic|Salt water didn't do much to protect my aluminium dinghy. It corroded right thru the 1/8th plate in several places. Zero maintenance? Dream on. The barnacles will love you for believing that.Paint all breaks down eventually and an unpainted aluminium boat in the tropics is like walking in a hot frying pan. Where do you find an antifouling paint that is not far less effective for an aluminium boat? Drop a penny in the bilge , unoticed ,and it will go right thru. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Just case across a site where aluminium was being > sold to punters as a hull material. > http://www.seaotterboats.co.uk/faq.htm > > A couple of beaut quotes: > > "Why do Sea Otter use aluminium? > No hull maintenance whatsoever. No annual blacking > or anodes. No time spent rubbing down and repainting." > > Get that ? No maintenance whatsoever - and no anodes. > > "How does electrolytic reaction compare with a steel boat? > A steel boat is a virtual chemistry set. Steel (of all > types, grades and manufacture, which in many cases has > adopted a magnetic field due to the amount of work done > on it): stainless; phosphor bronze; manganese bronze; > magnesium anodes and every other component in the engine. > All of this makes a very good battery . We have just one > material: the excellent marine grade aluminium alloy." > > It's so reassuring to learn that propellor shafts, > propellors, rudder pintles, etc. are now being made > from marine grade alloy. > > "Salt Water? > The aluminium alloy loves salt water. The material > creates its own protective coating by oxidisation. > Because of the make up of salt water this happens > even faster." > > So it loves salt water and is even protected by it ? > (That's what they're saying !) > > > Greg Elliott was promoting aluminium alloy in a recent > post and appeared to be at a loss to understand why > people (in the UK in particular) aren't enthusiastic > about it's use. I don't think it has anything to do > with Chay Blyth or British Steel - my guess is that > when something is being so enthusiastically promoted > (i.e. the big sell) - our natural reaction is one of > a cynical questioning of the the salesman's primary > motives ..... > Steel, on the other hand, is never actively promoted > in the same way (to the best of my knowledge). > > Colin | 7935|22|2005-05-14 18:39:15|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /RadiantBarrier9.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Test : hot chicken & frozen icecream in each bag to test temperature loss You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/RadiantBarrier9.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 7936|7936|2005-05-14 20:35:54|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Hard Chine Vs Folded|When going through files in origamiboats 1&2 i saw some boats being built that where hard chine without frames rather then folded and was woundering what the stringth difference was in folding Vs the hard chine. Would the hard chine need more stringers? Jon| 7937|7936|2005-05-15 09:26:05|jp4sail|Re: Hard Chine Vs Folded|Hi This is very good question that I always think about. I always liked the "strongal" idea and sometimes I wonder if I can make a "strongeel" version. If it's possible with aluminum why not with steel? Any comment on that? JPaes --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > When going through files in origamiboats 1&2 i saw some boats being > built that where hard chine without frames rather then folded and was > woundering what the stringth difference was in folding Vs the hard > chine. Would the hard chine need more stringers? > > Jon | 7938|7938|2005-05-15 10:17:41|yvesmariedetanton|Strongall and strongSteel.|The method of construction devised by Meta started with hard chine steel boats. Power and sail. The extremely thick plates (steel or aluminum) can only be bent in one direction and therefore not applicable in an Origami design where the fore and aft lines are forced into compound curves.| 7939|7936|2005-05-15 10:24:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hard Chine Vs Folded|I think the answer to this question is very simple. In boat building we derive strength from curves. Yet we start from flat sheets of material in most cases. Obviously this is one of the wonders of fiberglass, it really isn't limited by the raw material dimensions in producing curved surfaces. So there are basically just two ways to get curves in sheet materials. One is to bend the material, the other is by joining two pieces. So the advantage of the Origami approach is that it reduces the number of joints, and the amount of welding, and the distortion that large amounts of welding inevitably introduce. The disadvantage is that you are limited to shapes that can be produced by bending that only deforms the material by a tiny fraction of its original flat shape. Unless of course you have access to powerful forming presses, but that isn't the essence of origami construction. So the whole question is a matter of how far you move in either direction, forcing the sheet into shape, or cutting it into smaller pieces that bend easily and welding them together. A good design from either approach will be adequately strong, no need to discuss the strength issues. You can however argue things like time to build, time spent fairing etc. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "jp4sail" To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hard Chine Vs Folded > Hi > > This is very good question that I always think about. I always liked > the "strongal" idea and sometimes I wonder if I can make a "strongeel" > version. If it's possible with aluminum why not with steel? Any > comment on that? > JPaes > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: >> When going through files in origamiboats 1&2 i saw some boats being >> built that where hard chine without frames rather then folded and was >> woundering what the stringth difference was in folding Vs the hard >> chine. Would the hard chine need more stringers? >> >> Jon > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7940|7938|2005-05-15 10:51:31|Henri Naths|Re: Strongall and strongSteel.|A compound curve is a lot stronger than a simple curve. Like trying to crush an egg on the ends. Place the egg between your hands so that it's length ways, and have your fingers interlocked. You won't be able to crush it. Now place it between your thumb and fore finger.... H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "yvesmariedetanton" To: Sent: 15 May, 2005 8:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Strongall and strongSteel. > The method of construction devised by Meta started with hard chine > steel boats. Power and sail. The extremely thick plates (steel or > aluminum) can only be bent in one direction and therefore not > applicable in an Origami design where the fore and aft lines are > forced into compound curves. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7941|7932|2005-05-15 19:26:10|jnikadie|Re: alternator welding|As always I need to start with a disclaimer ... power electronics are not my thing, but I can't see how such a diode would help. My understanding is that the problem is caused by either the high open circuit voltage or the transient voltage spike which I believe would occur as the welding arc is broken (caused by the inductance in the circuit trying to keep current flowing even though there is nowhere for it to go). The extra diode doesn't help mitigate either of these factors ... during open circuit conditions no current will flow through the external diode ... it will have no effect on the circuit. Perhaps a capacitor between the alternator's terminals will do the job of surpressing the transient voltage spike (the current "induced" by the circuit's inductance flows into the capacitor ... and because it has somewhere to go the transient voltage spike is avoided). Providing a load that will avoid the high open circuit voltage (by ensuring the alternator never actually sees an open circuit) is harder (especially as we don't want this load to effect the welding), but perhaps a power MOSFET coupled with a couple of extra components can do the job. If the Gate of a MOSFET is below a certain voltage (relative to the MOSFET's Source terminal) the MOSFET acts as an open switch. If the Gate voltage exceeds the threshold the "switch" is closed and current can flow from the Drain to the Source. The trick is to wire such a beast up so that the Gate is below the threshold while welding, but when the welding electrode is taken away from the work piece (open circuit) the Gate voltage increases and the "switch" is turned on. Power MOSFETs can turn on very fast (20ns) ... but I'd still want the capacitor protecting against transient voltage spikes. I think a resistor and a zener diode could do the trick ... if I can find the time I'll put some more thought into it and post any further thoughts here. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large diode in > the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink > protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from dammage to > some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes in two > heat sinks. > Brent | 7942|7938|2005-05-15 21:00:06|Puck III|Re: Strongall and strongSteel.|Please have a look at tourdumondeen26pieds.jpg & at FramelessRando.jpg in Files. A similar " Medium thick " Aluminum Frameless 26' round the world cruiser can be build in the origami fashion ,method or way , be it by META , Reducostall or by any competent welder builder (why not you?) Worth looking at ? You tell me :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > A compound curve is a lot stronger than a simple curve. Like trying to crush > an egg on the ends. Place the egg between your hands so that it's length > ways, and have your fingers interlocked. You won't be able to crush it. Now > place it between your thumb and fore finger.... > H. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "yvesmariedetanton" > To: > Sent: 15 May, 2005 8:17 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Strongall and strongSteel. > > > > The method of construction devised by Meta started with hard chine > > steel boats. Power and sail. The extremely thick plates (steel or > > aluminum) can only be bent in one direction and therefore not > > applicable in an Origami design where the fore and aft lines are > > forced into compound curves. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7943|7943|2005-05-15 21:08:36|Henri Naths|ben lexcen's winged keel|re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, 1983. Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the second- fired from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's victory. Forty- one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben Lexcen. Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved ideas? Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7944|7943|2005-05-15 22:47:38|Michael Casling|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|Ben Lexcen ( not his real name ) did the design work on the keel. The wings worked like an end plate which made the foil part of the keel more efficient. There is a maximum depth for 12m keels so a very deep keel was not allowed. When heeled the wing tip had a greater depth than allowed under the rule, but the rule did not say anything about a heeled measurement. The depth was okay when upright. The NYYC filed a protest on that issue. The wings also got weight further down. So the benefits were a more efficient foil, greater depth of the foil and more weight down low. A side effect benefit was found when the boat did not pitch or bob as much. Incremental improvements in slow boat speed at great expense is how Gary Hoyt has described this sought of thing. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, 1983. Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the second- fired from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's victory. Forty- one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben Lexcen. Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved ideas? Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7945|7943|2005-05-16 00:50:04|Puck III|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|The Cup then left the NYYC Manhattan clubhouse , where it was almost bolted down , for down under and the Race became a more international event ever since . A show case about designing within the race rules . G Hoyt's comments are correct , on the other hand it shows how important it is to design & build towards a well conceived designgoal with well established priorities , even if it's just : for lowbudget selfbuilt,more about the Topic in here :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Ben Lexcen ( not his real name ) did the design work on the keel. > The wings worked like an end plate which made the foil part of the keel more efficient. There is a maximum depth for 12m keels so a very deep keel was not allowed. When heeled the wing tip had a greater depth than allowed under the rule, but the rule did not say anything about a heeled measurement. The depth was okay when upright. > The NYYC filed a protest on that issue. > The wings also got weight further down. So the benefits were a more efficient foil, greater depth of the foil and more weight down low. A side effect benefit was found when the boat did not pitch or bob as much. > Incremental improvements in slow boat speed at great expense is how Gary Hoyt has described this sought of thing. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Henri Naths > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel > > > re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. > " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, 1983. Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the second- fired from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's victory. Forty- one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" > This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben Lexcen. > Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved ideas? > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7946|7932|2005-05-16 04:11:43|sae140|Re: alternator welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large diode in > the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink > protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from dammage to > some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes in two > heat sinks. > Brent Can't see any advantage in doing this, as damage to the diode pack comes from 2 principal sources: excessive heating, or from inductive spikes generated from the stator coils exceeding the diodes voltage rating. It would be interesting to know the guy's thinking behind doing this. A couple of interesting (to some, maybe ?) points .... Recently bought 3x 400V 300A diodes from the USA on eBay - not particularly expensive, and will last for ever. They are 'reversed polarity' - i.e. Anode-to-Case (the somewhat harder ones to find). With 3 of these and 3x Cathode-to-Case, then only one heat-sink will be required, which won't require isolation from the chassis as long as appropriate care is taken. Total overkill of course, but so what ? The eBay States guy trades these on a regular basis, so may even sell some directly - email me if this is of interest. For alternator-welding it's worth checking your stator connections. If you find that 3x single wires connected to the diode pack *and* on inspection you find 3 further wires simply connected together, then the alternator is wired in "Star" or "Y" configuration. Should you find the 6 wires connected together in 3 pairs, then you have a "Delta" (think Greek letter or triangle) configuration. If you have Star, for welding purposes there is a great advantage to re-arranging the connections to Delta - this will give you around 1.4x the amperage, with an appropriate loss in voltage (which is actually an advantage in this application !), for zero expense. I'm told that most 100A + alternators are already wired in Delta. If anyone's puzzled why "Star" is preferred for autos, it's because adequate voltage at low revs is the most desirable characteristic - current is very much a secondary issue. If you should want a single alternator to function both as an auto-alternator *and* as a welder (not something I would particularly recommend), then it should be possible to rig a manual Star/Delta motor switch in circuit to get the best of both worlds. It's occured to me that it should be fairly straight- forward to convert an auto-alternator arc-welder to work as a portable mig-welder as well (I'm thinking thin ally and s/s), so I bought an el cheapo Mig welder yesterday to experiment with. I'll keep the group posted. Colin| 7947|7938|2005-05-16 09:39:02|jp4sail|Re: Strongall and strongSteel.|Old Ben I know it can be done in aluminum but how about steel? Are the plans for the 26 footer available for amateurs? Thanx JPaes --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Please have a look at tourdumondeen26pieds.jpg & at > FramelessRando.jpg in Files. > A similar " Medium thick " Aluminum Frameless 26' > round the world cruiser can be build in the origami > fashion ,method or way , be it by META , Reducostall > or by any competent welder builder (why not you?) > Worth looking at ? You tell me :-) > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > A compound curve is a lot stronger than a simple curve. Like trying > to crush > > an egg on the ends. Place the egg between your hands so that it's > length > > ways, and have your fingers interlocked. You won't be able to crush > it. Now > > place it between your thumb and fore finger.... > > H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "yvesmariedetanton" > > To: > > Sent: 15 May, 2005 8:17 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Strongall and strongSteel. > > > > > > > The method of construction devised by Meta started with hard chine > > > steel boats. Power and sail. The extremely thick plates (steel or > > > aluminum) can only be bent in one direction and therefore not > > > applicable in an Origami design where the fore and aft lines are > > > forced into compound curves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7948|7943|2005-05-16 09:59:52|Henri Naths|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|Hi Michael, Could you explain this efficiency? (I googled the subject and couldn't find appropriate references.) Does it have / work a hydro-foil like effect? Any up-dates that you are aware of? It's interesting to note here the side effects were minimised pitching and bobbing.( at the expense of increased wetted surface area) Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: 15 May, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel > Ben Lexcen ( not his real name ) did the design work on the keel. > The wings worked like an end plate which made the foil part of the keel > more efficient. There is a maximum depth for 12m keels so a very deep keel > was not allowed. When heeled the wing tip had a greater depth than allowed > under the rule, but the rule did not say anything about a heeled > measurement. The depth was okay when upright. > The NYYC filed a protest on that issue. > The wings also got weight further down. So the benefits were a more > efficient foil, greater depth of the foil and more weight down low. A side > effect benefit was found when the boat did not pitch or bob as much. > Incremental improvements in slow boat speed at great expense is how Gary > Hoyt has described this sought of thing. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Henri Naths > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel > > > re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. > " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, 1983. > Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the second- fired > from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's victory. Forty- > one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" > This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben Lexcen. > Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved ideas? > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7949|7943|2005-05-16 11:20:13|Michael Casling|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|Ideally a keel should be an high aspect ratio for efficiency, good lift, minimal drag. So it would look like an airplane wing, but there are limits to depth and there are structural concerns. Just like the tip of a wing the bottom of a keel or rudder has turbulence. The planes use end plates on their wings, or make the end elliptical like a spitfire. Many new rudders are elliptical on the bottom and so are some keels. But when you have a rule or shallow water the keel depth is restricted. Whatever can be done to reduce turbulence, which is drag, will help the boat sail faster. The Ozzys may have won with a conventional keel, only the guys closely associated with the boat would know where the speed gains came from. The reduction of pitching and bobbing was an added bonus. The wings were just an object that resisted up and down movement. There was some lift in the wings that was meant to work when heeled. Bob Miller is Ben Lexcens real name. I am stretching the memory banks on this. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel Hi Michael, Could you explain this efficiency? (I googled the subject and couldn't find appropriate references.) Does it have / work a hydro-foil like effect? Any up-dates that you are aware of? It's interesting to note here the side effects were minimised pitching and bobbing.( at the expense of increased wetted surface area) Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: 15 May, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel > Ben Lexcen ( not his real name ) did the design work on the keel. > The wings worked like an end plate which made the foil part of the keel > more efficient. There is a maximum depth for 12m keels so a very deep keel > was not allowed. When heeled the wing tip had a greater depth than allowed > under the rule, but the rule did not say anything about a heeled > measurement. The depth was okay when upright. > The NYYC filed a protest on that issue. > The wings also got weight further down. So the benefits were a more > efficient foil, greater depth of the foil and more weight down low. A side > effect benefit was found when the boat did not pitch or bob as much. > Incremental improvements in slow boat speed at great expense is how Gary > Hoyt has described this sought of thing. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Henri Naths > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] ben lexcen's winged keel > > > re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. > " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, 1983. > Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the second- fired > from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's victory. Forty- > one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" > This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben Lexcen. > Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved ideas? > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7950|7855|2005-05-16 11:26:28|seeratlas|Re: Hull Material|:) Look up what it costs :) Also, it was designed for air mobility ergo the "light" weight, and that is a relative term, not all that light.The armor is incredibly thick too, but they still have a helluva time with cosmetic abrasion damage. US car industry tried aluminum...how many aluminum autos are made in the world today? Wonder why that is? > > The British army has a small fast light weight scout/rec tank which > has aluminum armour! > > Geoff > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7951|7809|2005-05-16 11:37:19|seeratlas|Re: origami magic|I had a "T" on mine thru which i pumped some bleach every now and then, that and some liberal application of vaseline seemed to prevent any substantial marine growth, tho dunno if that's a marine eco 'no-no' these days. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I used the T on my head intake pipe. It makes it easy to clean when > barnacles start to grow in it. It also makes it easy to check the > inside of the pipe while in the water. A pipe union also works well > and is easy to undo. > Plugs would be harder to use than a ball valve and thus would be > used less, some times not used when they should. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > Brent, > > I was thinking about the long vertical standpipe idea. My thought > was that > > the top of the standpipe could be open and use an expanding pipe > plug to > > close it. Connect your hose to the stand pipe with a tee on the > side. To > > close off the standpipe right at the hull you could push the > expanding plug > > down past the side tee opening and tighten it back up. This would > allow you > > to remove and service hoses or just keep the marine growth out of > the > > standpipe when not in use for extended periods. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:53 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami magic > > > > > > > You must have an incredible selection of tropical hardwoods > available > > > for cheap in the Pillipines as well. > > > ABS certifies fibreglass boats as well. Get your self an ABS > > > certified fibreglass boat and we'll have a demolition derby with > one > > > of my steel non approved bulkheadles origami boats .So much for > ABS. > > > I was also told that ABS requires plastic thru hulls on metal > boats. > > > So much for ABS. > > > LLoyds insists on stainless keel bolts for woden boats. Stainless > > > keel bolts suffer from extremely rapid crevice corrosion when in > wet > > > wood. So much for Lloyds. > > > Span in frames is only one issue. Shape has a major bearing on > > > strength , Frames have none, longitudinals are portions of an arc, > > > and thus much stronger for a given length .The severe torture > tests > > > that my boats have survived clearly show the lack of any > structural > > > need for bulkheads. What extreme torture tests have your boats > had? > > > Too big a boat has sunk more cruising dreams than all other causes > > > combined. I heard that Greg, one of your clients ,is bailing out, > due > > > to excessive costs. > > > I got my current 31 footer sailing in 1984 for under $6,000 as > that > > > was all the money that I had at the time.The boat has fitted my > needs > > > perfectly since then. Could I have built a 50 ft aluminium boat > for > > > that? Last time I checked ,the aluminium alone for a 31 footer , > > > laying on the ground, cost nearly three times that much, before > even > > > starting to build. > > > Speed , to be realistic , has to include the time building > > > aquiring, and paying for a boat as well as the passage times. > > > Initialy, one can build in just a bunk, head and galley, then go > > > cruising. The rest can be done later , at one's liesure. This > > > approach, giving oneself lots of time to decide what one wants, > > > results in a better boat for less effort. > > > Lately I've been using sch 40 SS standpipes to above the > waterline > > > for thru hulls, greatly reducing the liklihood of a boat sinking > from > > > fitting failures. One of the great advantages of metal > construction > > > is that thru hulls don't have to be at right angles to the hull. > This > > > lets us run such standpipes parallell to bulkheads , thus making > them > > > more practical from a space standpoint. > > > The downwind side of any ocean has always been an excellent place > to > > > shop for a used boat. When people get home sick , burned out and > > > broke, boats can be had for real cheap, as long as you are > willing to > > > settle for whatever is available. If you insist on a good metal > hull > > > of your own construction, some of these boats sell for a fraction > the > > > price of the goodies aboard. You could sail one home and transfer > the > > > goodies to your next hull, if customs doesn't ask too much. > > > I agree that aluminium makes the best hatches possible. If I were > > > very rich and starting a boat I would seriously consider aluminium > > > for everything from the decks up. This is becoming much more > > > common.Such superstructures could be buiolt inside, out of the > wind, > > > in a much smaller space than required for the hull. This would > enable > > > one to build the aluminium part in the sheltered conditions it > > > demands, and do the steel hull outside. > > > Given the problems finding suitable antifouling paint and other > > > underwater corrosion problems and the weakness of welds and the > > > trickiness of getting really good welds on aluminium, I wouldn't > even > > > consider anything but steel for the hull and sidedecks. > > > With the new steel prices, scrap aluminium pipe is probably > cheaper > > > than new steel for the mast. One client , successfully bolted > > > galvanized fittings on his aluminium mast , enabling him to do it > all > > > with a buzzbox. > > > My book tells you how to build a watermaker with a pressure washer > > > pump. The General TT911 has ceramic plungers , is reasonably > cheap, > > > and works well. Wolf had a demonstration model working at the last > > > Vancouver boat show. > > > Maintenance on my steel boat is about an hour or two a year, far > > > less than the difference in price between steel and aluminium. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> > > >> Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. > I'm > > > off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our > > > boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group > before > > > next fall. > > >> > > >> Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on > the > > > Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was > inspired > > > by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and > > > converted to triple chine origami. > > >> > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > >> > > >> At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, > which > > > is now under construction in our yard. > > >> > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > >> > > >> We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to > > > start construction on one or both over the summer. > > >> > > >> At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami > > > relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in > > > the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in > shallow > > > water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were > fine. > > > Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, > > > dismastings, and sinkings. > > >> > > >> One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important > > > pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a > > > result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a > few > > > strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one > of > > > the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a > > > shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > > >> > > >> While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it > is > > > rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 > scope > > > to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. > While > > > Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal > > > bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even > > > squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with > little > > > or no room to drag. > > >> > > >> We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched > to > > > a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure > > > location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than > moving > > > the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The > > > Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > >> > > >> I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising > > > Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by > > > the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a > > > great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. > > > Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a > > > different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy > > > with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to > origami. > > >> > > >> The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple > > > formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and > sale) > > > by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in > > > mind. > > >> > > >> The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons > > > displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer > being > > > beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the > same > > > to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but > it > > > will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. > > > Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch > a > > > better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will > likely be > > > more fun when out on the water. > > >> > > >> The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very > long, > > > lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a > > > short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed > to > > > building boats that look like production boats, which have very > > > different economics than origami. > > >> > > >> Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a > > > length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, > > > resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better > > > approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, > > > design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then > > > build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate > this. > > >> > > >> It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot > hull, > > > with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, > than > > > to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you > try > > > and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up > > > fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be > > > simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, > squat > > > 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to > finish, > > > the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build > both > > > boats with the same given interior. > > >> > > >> For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double > > > berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after > another > > > down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull > > > you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double > up > > > somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the > > > galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much > simpler > > > and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its > > > own privacy. > > >> > > >> Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline > length, > > > the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. > > > Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up > > > exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. > However, > > > with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than > > > smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A > longer > > > hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the > hull, > > > you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., > > > etc., which is what takes the time. > > >> > > >> I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the > origami > > > technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat > > > building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an > opportunity to > > > meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with > over > > > the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all > > > long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and > not > > > one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high > budget > > > boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are > > > not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost > labor in > > > Asia to build the boats they really want. > > >> > > >> I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy > > > cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above > the > > > waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not > present a > > > great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was > sailing > > > aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate > > > primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting > is > > > not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons > > > should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily > > > oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then > > > follow with the acid wash. > > >> > > >> I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long > time > > > friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He > has > > > a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in > > > partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience > > > worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready > > > supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to > > > produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home > builder to > > > build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For > > > example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was > > > roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe > > > you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > > >> > > >> While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard > > > Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This > is a > > > 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished > boat, > > > all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building > yard > > > converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment > > > the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > > >> > > >> This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, > dinghys, > > > doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for > years > > > without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be > applied to > > > building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock > and > > > look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live > aboard > > > and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, > invariably a > > > steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative > > > impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to > buy > > > used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in > > > steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are > steel > > > mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > >> > > >> With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in > SE > > > Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy > now > > > costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. > Once > > > other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. > The > > > yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from > building > > > steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even > > > when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of > > > steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made > > > alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. > > > However, this may well be changing. > > >> > > >> While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one > of > > > the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of > > > the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the > latest > > > electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was > AC/DC, > > > CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do > > > MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the > 300 > > > amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more > honest > > > rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye > > > open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down > > > dramatically in price. > > >> > > >> Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that > have > > > built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you > are > > > going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must > have > > > ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of > > > steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > > >> > > >> One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior > > > bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making > > > the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof > > > bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and > > > beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an > Irwin > > > 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One > morning > > > the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps > were > > > unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the > dock by > > > its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it > could > > > sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was > $10,000 > > > US as is, where is. No insurance. > > >> > > >> I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save > the > > > boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I > > > know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, > it > > > would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple > enough > > > to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise > the > > > roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat > > > with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with > your > > > boat on the bottom. > > >> > > >> Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami > > > construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a > > > simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats > > > meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami > > > boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, > will > > > be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The > reason > > > for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is > > > structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because > the > > > strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it > > > span. > > >> > > >> Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, > running > > > the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if > > > they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal > > > framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized > > > transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal > > > framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at > > > intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span > length. > > >> > > >> Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times > > > stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames > 9 > > > times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is > 16 > > > times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve > to > > > make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the > bulkheads > > > can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by > > > fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily > equal > > > or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can > > > be "unsinkable" as well. > > >> > > >> It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we > > > should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. > There > > > is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk > of > > > someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull > over > > > and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based > on a > > > very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is > overly > > > strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats > to > > > his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should > > > significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with > family > > > and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > >> > > >> As has often been said on this group by others, look at the > person > > > giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first > > > went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years > > > sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to > pay > > > the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the > > > way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental > > > income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly > income > > > and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, > where I > > > want. > > >> > > >> My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. > > > Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never > go > > > cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a > time, > > > or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you > > > something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how > to > > > do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. > Every > > > minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the > rest > > > of your life you will have to go cruising. > > >> > > >> I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our > > > web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone > wishing > > > to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > > >> > > >> Greg Elliott > > >> > > >> PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right > > > now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 > thousand > > > US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. > There > > > are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be > > > cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living > is > > > almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe > and > > > sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go > cruising > > > there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7952|7787|2005-05-16 11:37:36|seeratlas|Re: Shady Business :-)|I would note the stuff of which std mothballs are made is a pretty heavy duty carcenogen. Lots of ventilation called for here, especially if you have kids about and around. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I heard an article on CBC where someone had developed a way to extend > the mould fighting characteristics of calcium carbonate indefinitly. > It normally works for a short time only. This stuff, if added to > paint ,used on an air duct ,killed all of the bacteria in the first > few feet. > For storing charts, books ,winter clothes, etc at sea in the > tropics, put them in plastic garbage bags with mothballs. They may be > a bit smelly when you take them out, but an hour or two in the wind > takes care of that.It all evaporates quickly. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > Ted, > > Canestan and its replacement Hexal Clotreme --- now that is > essential when > > the crotch rot / jock itch sets in!! > > We have been here 10 years and the first year when I got a patch, I > actually > > went to the doc. thinking "What the hell is this?" > > His diagnosis and advice was short and to the point " To avoid > crotch rot, > > wear loose fitting pants or no underclothes at all " > > Mould in boats is not yet a problem for me, and it is strange how > some house > > surfaces grow it quickly and others don't seem to have any at all. > Mould > > seems to ignore the "anti mould" words on some interior paint cans > as well. > > Regards, > > Terry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > > Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 04:22 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) | 7953|7943|2005-05-16 11:57:12|seeratlas|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|There are several concerns about the wing keel on a cruising boat. First, you can get hung up and in on all sorts of things in the water, lobster pot lines, old nets, jettisoned steel cable, mooring lines, even large strands of kelp. Second, any boat that is intended to 'ground' every now or then, runs the risk of the 'rubber boot in the deep mud' phenomenon, i.e. it really 'sux'. Thirdly, they are a bit difficult to form out of sheet steel, without getting lots of drag inducing hydrodynamic anomalies. In racing, its all about fractions of improvement and those fractions rarely represent 'bang for the buck' scenarios :) My own thought is to add some 1/2" or thicker steel plate to the bottoms of the swain bilge keels. More weight, more unpainted steel to take bottoming which i intend to do frequently. I like the idea of not having to seek out a yard to haul the boat everytime i want to do some bottom maintenance. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. > " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, 1983. Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the second- fired from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's victory. Forty- one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" > This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben Lexcen. > Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved ideas? > Henri > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7954|7809|2005-05-16 15:47:37|brentswain38|Re: origami magic|Loud environmentalists often pour gallons of bleach down their drains when living ashore, which sewage treatment plants don't remove( That is when they are not driving their motorhomes to the polls to vote for the green party, or making tons of kids to solve the shortage of humans on the planet.) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I had a "T" on mine thru which i pumped some bleach every now and > then, that and some liberal application of vaseline seemed to prevent > any substantial marine growth, tho dunno if that's a marine eco > 'no-no' these days. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I used the T on my head intake pipe. It makes it easy to clean when > > barnacles start to grow in it. It also makes it easy to check the > > inside of the pipe while in the water. A pipe union also works well > > and is easy to undo. > > Plugs would be harder to use than a ball valve and thus would be > > used less, some times not used when they should. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > Brent, > > > I was thinking about the long vertical standpipe idea. My thought > > was that > > > the top of the standpipe could be open and use an expanding pipe > > plug to > > > close it. Connect your hose to the stand pipe with a tee on the > > side. To > > > close off the standpipe right at the hull you could push the > > expanding plug > > > down past the side tee opening and tighten it back up. This would > > allow you > > > to remove and service hoses or just keep the marine growth out of > > the > > > standpipe when not in use for extended periods. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 7:53 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami magic > > > > > > > > > > You must have an incredible selection of tropical hardwoods > > available > > > > for cheap in the Pillipines as well. > > > > ABS certifies fibreglass boats as well. Get your self an ABS > > > > certified fibreglass boat and we'll have a demolition derby with > > one > > > > of my steel non approved bulkheadles origami boats .So much for > > ABS. > > > > I was also told that ABS requires plastic thru hulls on metal > > boats. > > > > So much for ABS. > > > > LLoyds insists on stainless keel bolts for woden boats. Stainless > > > > keel bolts suffer from extremely rapid crevice corrosion when in > > wet > > > > wood. So much for Lloyds. > > > > Span in frames is only one issue. Shape has a major bearing on > > > > strength , Frames have none, longitudinals are portions of an arc, > > > > and thus much stronger for a given length .The severe torture > > tests > > > > that my boats have survived clearly show the lack of any > > structural > > > > need for bulkheads. What extreme torture tests have your boats > > had? > > > > Too big a boat has sunk more cruising dreams than all other causes > > > > combined. I heard that Greg, one of your clients ,is bailing out, > > due > > > > to excessive costs. > > > > I got my current 31 footer sailing in 1984 for under $6,000 as > > that > > > > was all the money that I had at the time.The boat has fitted my > > needs > > > > perfectly since then. Could I have built a 50 ft aluminium boat > > for > > > > that? Last time I checked ,the aluminium alone for a 31 footer , > > > > laying on the ground, cost nearly three times that much, before > > even > > > > starting to build. > > > > Speed , to be realistic , has to include the time building > > > > aquiring, and paying for a boat as well as the passage times. > > > > Initialy, one can build in just a bunk, head and galley, then go > > > > cruising. The rest can be done later , at one's liesure. This > > > > approach, giving oneself lots of time to decide what one wants, > > > > results in a better boat for less effort. > > > > Lately I've been using sch 40 SS standpipes to above the > > waterline > > > > for thru hulls, greatly reducing the liklihood of a boat sinking > > from > > > > fitting failures. One of the great advantages of metal > > construction > > > > is that thru hulls don't have to be at right angles to the hull. > > This > > > > lets us run such standpipes parallell to bulkheads , thus making > > them > > > > more practical from a space standpoint. > > > > The downwind side of any ocean has always been an excellent place > > to > > > > shop for a used boat. When people get home sick , burned out and > > > > broke, boats can be had for real cheap, as long as you are > > willing to > > > > settle for whatever is available. If you insist on a good metal > > hull > > > > of your own construction, some of these boats sell for a fraction > > the > > > > price of the goodies aboard. You could sail one home and transfer > > the > > > > goodies to your next hull, if customs doesn't ask too much. > > > > I agree that aluminium makes the best hatches possible. If I were > > > > very rich and starting a boat I would seriously consider aluminium > > > > for everything from the decks up. This is becoming much more > > > > common.Such superstructures could be buiolt inside, out of the > > wind, > > > > in a much smaller space than required for the hull. This would > > enable > > > > one to build the aluminium part in the sheltered conditions it > > > > demands, and do the steel hull outside. > > > > Given the problems finding suitable antifouling paint and other > > > > underwater corrosion problems and the weakness of welds and the > > > > trickiness of getting really good welds on aluminium, I wouldn't > > even > > > > consider anything but steel for the hull and sidedecks. > > > > With the new steel prices, scrap aluminium pipe is probably > > cheaper > > > > than new steel for the mast. One client , successfully bolted > > > > galvanized fittings on his aluminium mast , enabling him to do it > > all > > > > with a buzzbox. > > > > My book tells you how to build a watermaker with a pressure washer > > > > pump. The General TT911 has ceramic plungers , is reasonably > > cheap, > > > > and works well. Wolf had a demonstration model working at the last > > > > Vancouver boat show. > > > > Maintenance on my steel boat is about an hour or two a year, far > > > > less than the difference in price between steel and aluminium. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Finally back in Vancouver after about a 1/2 year on the road. > > I'm > > > > off to Barbados next week, so this will be a quick report on our > > > > boating activities. I likely won't write again to the group > > before > > > > next fall. > > > >> > > > >> Last fall I was in the interior of BC, starting construction on > > the > > > > Rosey 37. An alloy "offshore pocket cruiser", the R37 was > > inspired > > > > by George Buehler's popular diesel duck (more on this later), and > > > > converted to triple chine origami. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Rosy37/rosy_37.htm > > > >> > > > >> At the same time we designed the Sara 47, a traditional look, > > which > > > > is now under construction in our yard. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Sara_C47/Sara_C47.htm > > > >> > > > >> We also have two 50 footers on the drawing boards, with plans to > > > > start construction on one or both over the summer. > > > >> > > > >> At New Years I flew out to SE Asia to assist in the Tsunami > > > > relief. Quite a few boats we knew suffered damage or were lost in > > > > the disaster. The common thread was boats anchored/moored in > > shallow > > > > water. Those boats anchored in 30 feet of water or more were > > fine. > > > > Those in less than 30 feet were not, suffering extensive damage, > > > > dismastings, and sinkings. > > > >> > > > >> One of the boats we met stressed that one of the most important > > > > pieces of safety gear he owns is a good dinghy and motor. As a > > > > result, he is never tempted to anchor in shallow water to save a > > few > > > > strokes on the oars. He recalled a story he read as a boy of one > > of > > > > the early explorers losing his entire fleet when anchored in a > > > > shallow bay and as a result he never anchors shallow. > > > >> > > > >> While the temptation is to anchor shallow if you are rowing, it > > is > > > > rarely a good idea. In 10 feet of water you need almost a 10:1 > > scope > > > > to equal the holding power of a 4:1 scope in 30 feet of water. > > While > > > > Tsunamis may be rare, it only takes one to spoil your day. Tidal > > > > bores and freak waves do occur with disastrous consequences. Even > > > > squalls can spell disaster if you are anchored close in, with > > little > > > > or no room to drag. > > > >> > > > >> We originally started with a rowing dinghy but quickly switched > > to > > > > a planing dinghy. This allows us to anchor the Bones in a secure > > > > location, and explore far a field with the dinghy, rather than > > moving > > > > the Bones and risking the boat in less than idea anchorages. The > > > > Bones weathered the Tsunami without incident in 30+ feet of water. > > > >> > > > >> I had time while I was away to read Dashew's Offshore Cruising > > > > Encyclopedia. I had not read Dashew before and I was intrigued by > > > > the similarity in our experiences and points of view. I found a > > > > great deal in his book that can be directly applied to Origami. > > > > Previously I had not studied Dashew, because his boats were for a > > > > different budget. However, he addresses the question of build/buy > > > > with a great deal of candor, and his ideas directly apply to > > origami. > > > >> > > > >> The part of Dashew that best applies to Origami is a very simple > > > > formula: Boats cost by the pound to build, but they sail (and > > sale) > > > > by the foot. Everyone contemplating building should keep this in > > > > mind. > > > >> > > > >> The logic is inescapable. Build two boats, both 15 tons > > > > displacement. One 40 feet, the other 50 feet. The 40 footer > > being > > > > beamier and deeper than the 50 footer. They will cost about the > > same > > > > to build. The 40 footer will be cheaper to keep at the dock, but > > it > > > > will be slower and generally less capable under sail and power. > > > > Should you sell the boats, the 50 footer will almost always fetch > > a > > > > better price than the 40, and while you own it, the 50 will > > likely be > > > > more fun when out on the water. > > > >> > > > >> The advantage of origami is that is allows you to build very > > long, > > > > lean, light boats without spending much more time than to build a > > > > short, squat, heavy boat. The problem is that we are accustomed > > to > > > > building boats that look like production boats, which have very > > > > different economics than origami. > > > >> > > > >> Most people build boats by starting backwards. They select a > > > > length, and then cram as much stuff as they can into the boat, > > > > resulting in an expensive boat that performs poorly. A better > > > > approach is to start with what you want to put inside the boat, > > > > design a simple interior layout to hold this equipment, and then > > > > build the longest waterline hull you can afford to accommodate > > this. > > > >> > > > >> It is much better to have a 40 foot interior inside a 50 foot > > hull, > > > > with 5 feet of empty space at the ends to improve performance, > > than > > > > to have a 50 foot interior inside a 40 foot boat. As soon as you > > try > > > > and cram a bigger boat inside a smaller hull, your costs go up > > > > fantastically. For a given interior, it will almost always be > > > > simpler to fit it inside a long, lean 50 footer than a short, > > squat > > > > 40 footer. Since the interior is what takes the most time to > > finish, > > > > the 50 may well end up quicker to build - so long as you build > > both > > > > boats with the same given interior. > > > >> > > > >> For example, consider a boat with a galley, settee, head, double > > > > berth. In a long, lean hull you would build these one after > > another > > > > down the hull, using maybe 28 feet of hull. In a wide, short hull > > > > you likely don't have 28 feet to spare. You would have to double > > up > > > > somewhere. Most likely trying to fit the head across from the > > > > galley, with the resultant problems of noise and smell. Much > > simpler > > > > and better to build them down the hull, with each area getting its > > > > own privacy. > > > >> > > > >> Also, because hull speed is determined mostly by waterline > > length, > > > > the simplest way to get a faster boat is to build it longer. > > > > Normally, when you build a boat conventionally, the costs go up > > > > exponentially with length due to the increased complexity. > > However, > > > > with origami, it is in many ways easier to build bigger boats than > > > > smaller ones, because there is more room in which to work. A > > longer > > > > hull is just not that much extra work. No matter how long the > > hull, > > > > you still need to add a rudder, skeg, keel, engine mounts, etc., > > > > etc., which is what takes the time. > > > >> > > > >> I believe that by combining Dashew's ideas, along with the > > origami > > > > technique, there is a unique opportunity to advance one-off boat > > > > building to a new level. While I was in Asia I had an > > opportunity to > > > > meet with a number of one-off builders that I have sailed with > > over > > > > the years. They are all building long, lean boats. These are all > > > > long time, very experienced cruisers (15 years or more each), and > > not > > > > one of them is building less than 50 feet. These are not high > > budget > > > > boats, rather a reflection that waterline is an asset when you are > > > > not tied to the dock. They are taking advantage of low cost > > labor in > > > > Asia to build the boats they really want. > > > >> > > > >> I spent a month in the Philippines sailing aboard a 50 foot alloy > > > > cat. While Dashew has left his latest alloy boat unpainted above > > the > > > > waterline - even for the tropics - painting alloy does not > > present a > > > > great problem - certainly nothing like steel. The cat I was > > sailing > > > > aboard used a very simple paint system. Acid wash, zinc chromate > > > > primer, high build epoxy and urethane topcoat. Abrasive blasting > > is > > > > not required to prepare alloy for painting, and for many reasons > > > > should be avoided. At the very most, you simply prepare heavily > > > > oxidized alloy with a SS wire wheel as you would for welding, then > > > > follow with the acid wash. > > > >> > > > >> I spent time in the Subic economic zone, visiting with a long > > time > > > > friend, offshore sailor, and very experienced alloy builder. He > > has > > > > a low cost yard and is interested in building origami boats in > > > > partnership with Origami Magic. The wages paid for an experience > > > > worker in the Philippines are about $5 day, and there is a ready > > > > supply of low cost parts out of Hong Kong, so we should be able to > > > > produce boats in Subic for about what it would cost a home > > builder to > > > > build a boat, even counting the home builders wages as zero. For > > > > example, the cost to complete the interior for a 50 foot cat was > > > > roughly $5000 US, materials and labor. In North America or Europe > > > > you would be hard pressed to buy the wood for that price. > > > >> > > > >> While in the Philippines, I had the opportunity to go aboard > > > > Mandarin, hull number #1 out of Sea Horse Marine in China. This > > is a > > > > 48+2 version of Buehler's diesel duck. A beautifully finished > > boat, > > > > all the systems aboard are massive, reflecting a ship building > > yard > > > > converting to producing pleasure craft. The only negative comment > > > > the owner made against the boat was that it was steel. > > > >> > > > >> This group has seen the logic of using alloy for furlers, > > dinghys, > > > > doors, hatches, etc. They are light and low cost, and last for > > years > > > > without maintenance. The same techniques and logic can be > > applied to > > > > building the rest of the boat. One only need walk along any dock > > and > > > > look at the steel boats to see the realities. Unless you live > > aboard > > > > and are religious about keeping up with the maintenance, > > invariably a > > > > steel boat ends up looking like a steel boat, with the negative > > > > impact on resale value. This often makes it very economical to > > buy > > > > used steel boats, but often poor economics to build new boats in > > > > steel. The only exception I know of is England, where they are > > steel > > > > mad because of Blyth and British Steel. > > > >> > > > >> With the increase in steel and wood prices, many of the yards in > > SE > > > > Asia are switching over to alloy. Strength for strength, alloy > > now > > > > costs no more than marine ply, and perhaps 50% more than steel. > > Once > > > > other factors are considered, alloy is often cheaper than steel. > > The > > > > yard across from the Bones in Malaysia has now switched from > > building > > > > steel tugs to building alloy tugs. 100 foot offshore boats. Even > > > > when you factor in the low cost of labor in Malaysia, the price of > > > > steel, coupled with paint, maintenance and fuel costs has now made > > > > alloy more economical for small ships, except perhaps in China. > > > > However, this may well be changing. > > > >> > > > >> While in the Philippines I has the opportunity to work with one > > of > > > > the alloy welding machines now coming out of China. A fraction of > > > > the cost of better known name brand equipment, it had all the > > latest > > > > electronics and did fantastic work. For about $1000 US it was > > AC/DC, > > > > CC/CV, variable frequency, variable pulse width, and would do > > > > MIG/TIG/Stick. Rated at 200 amps, it welded MUCH hotter than the > > 300 > > > > amp rated name brand machine I was used to. Obviously a more > > honest > > > > rating - duty cycle being the big lie in any rating. Keep an eye > > > > open, like power washers, welding machine may be coming down > > > > dramatically in price. > > > >> > > > >> Speaking of which, the report from the sailors in SE Asia that > > have > > > > built water makers using low cost pressure washer pumps. If you > > are > > > > going to use a power washer type pump for a water maker, it must > > have > > > > ceramic pistons. Otherwise the pump will shed small particles of > > > > steel as it runs and make short work of the membrane. > > > >> > > > >> One further note on the 48+2 duck. Of interest were the interior > > > > bulkheads. All metal, each bulkhead had a waterproof door, making > > > > the boat "unsinkable". Personally, I am all for waterproof > > > > bulkheads. If the boat is long and lean, rather than short and > > > > beamy, they are practical. While we were in Lumut there was an > > Irwin > > > > 52 at the yacht club for sale. Loaded - 350,000 euros. One > > morning > > > > the boat was on the bottom. A fitting had failed and the pumps > > were > > > > unable to keep up. As it sank, the boat was pulled under the > > dock by > > > > its mooring lines. Now the boat was a liability, as raising it > > could > > > > sweep away the dock. The best offer the owner could get was > > $10,000 > > > > US as is, where is. No insurance. > > > >> > > > >> I myself have been in the same situation, and was able to save > > the > > > > boat only by driving it ashore. Luckily we were close to land. I > > > > know of at least one other sailor with the same story. Offshore, > > it > > > > would have been a disaster. Watertight bulkheads are simple > > enough > > > > to install, and with attention to the layout need not compromise > > the > > > > roominess in a boat. Your chances of survival go way up in a boat > > > > with a flooded section, as compared to being in a life raft with > > your > > > > boat on the bottom. > > > >> > > > >> Indeed, structural bulkheads are very likely required in origami > > > > construction. I have new engineering software from Asia and a > > > > simplified set of scantling rules for origami to ensure our boats > > > > meet/exceed ABS. However, It can readily be shown that origami > > > > boats, when built with similar scantlings to conventional boats, > > will > > > > be significantly weaker than what is called for in ABS. The > > reason > > > > for this is somewhat technical. For a given frame size, it is > > > > structurally more efficient to run the frames transverse, because > > the > > > > strength of a frame is inversely proportional to the square of it > > > > span. > > > >> > > > >> Because boats are typically much longer than they are wide, > > running > > > > the frames longitudinally makes then significantly weaker than if > > > > they are run transverse. In a typical origami boat, longitudinal > > > > framing may provide only 1/10 the strength of similarly sized > > > > transverse framing. Apart from installing massive longitudinal > > > > framing, the solution to this is to install bulkhead/girders at > > > > intervals similar to the beam of the boat, reducing the span > > length. > > > >> > > > >> Every time you half the span, the framing becomes four times > > > > stronger. In general, two bulkheads make the longitudinal frames > > 9 > > > > times stronger. Three bulkheads, and the longitudinal framing is > > 16 > > > > times stronger. Watertight and full width, these bulkheads serve > > to > > > > make the boat virtually "unsinkable". Alternatively, the > > bulkheads > > > > can be cut back to girder size to maximize ventilation. Thus, by > > > > fitting structural bulkheads in an origami boat, it can easily > > equal > > > > or exceed ABS, and if these bulkheads are watertight the boat can > > > > be "unsinkable" as well. > > > >> > > > >> It takes almost nothing extra to build to ABS. For offshore we > > > > should always error on the side of caution. We are not racing. > > There > > > > is no need to trade safety for speed, or cut corners at the risk > > of > > > > someone's life offshore. It isn't like a car. You can't pull > > over > > > > and call AAA if something goes wrong. Anecdotal evidence based > > on a > > > > very limited sample of boats is not sufficient to prove ABS is > > overly > > > > strong. Indeed, with 30 years offshore experience and many boats > > to > > > > his credit, Dashew recommends that offshore boats should > > > > significantly exceed ABS. With 20 years offshore sailing with > > family > > > > and friends aboard, I feel the same. > > > >> > > > >> As has often been said on this group by others, look at the > > person > > > > giving the advice and see what it has done for them. When I first > > > > went offshore I was $110,000 in debt. I spent the next 20 years > > > > sailing with my family. I lived my dream, worked as I sailed to > > pay > > > > the bills, raised two children afloat, and had a blast. Along the > > > > way we paid off the house and the boat and ended up with rental > > > > income and money in the bank. The house now pays us a monthly > > income > > > > and I have the freedom to travel, sail and work when I want, > > where I > > > > want. > > > >> > > > >> My advise. Get up from behind the computer and get out there. > > > > Most of what you read is just opinion from people that will never > > go > > > > cruising. Or if they do, it will only be for a few months at a > > time, > > > > or they will simply tell you what you want to hear to sell you > > > > something. Don't waste your time. They haven't figured out how > > to > > > > do it, how to cruise offshore for years at a time as we did. > > Every > > > > minute you spend reading their email is one less minute in the > > rest > > > > of your life you will have to go cruising. > > > >> > > > >> I have more topics to cover, but these I am going to enter on our > > > > web site http://www.origamimagic.com as time permits. Anyone > > wishing > > > > to contact me should email me direct at ge@o... > > > >> > > > >> Greg Elliott > > > >> > > > >> PS: There are dozens of cruising boats for sale in SE Asia right > > > > now. They average 35-40 feet, and can be bought for $20-30 > > thousand > > > > US. Way less than you could build a similarly outfitted boat. > > There > > > > are no buyers. Most of these boats are well outfitted and can be > > > > cruised in Asia with little or no work, where the cost of living > > is > > > > almost zero. With some fix-up they can likely be taken to Europe > > and > > > > sold for about twice the purchase price. If you want to go > > cruising > > > > there is unlikely to be a better opportunity. > > > >> > > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 7955|7932|2005-05-16 15:52:51|brentswain38|Re: alternator welding|What size of capacitor would it take. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > As always I need to start with a disclaimer ... power electronics are > not my thing, but I can't see how such a diode would help. > > My understanding is that the problem is caused by either the high open > circuit voltage or the transient voltage spike which I believe would > occur as the welding arc is broken (caused by the inductance in the > circuit trying to keep current flowing even though there is nowhere > for it to go). > > The extra diode doesn't help mitigate either of these factors ... > during open circuit conditions no current will flow through the > external diode ... it will have no effect on the circuit. > > Perhaps a capacitor between the alternator's terminals will do the job > of surpressing the transient voltage spike (the current "induced" by > the circuit's inductance flows into the capacitor ... and because it > has somewhere to go the transient voltage spike is avoided). > > Providing a load that will avoid the high open circuit voltage (by > ensuring the alternator never actually sees an open circuit) is harder > (especially as we don't want this load to effect the welding), but > perhaps a power MOSFET coupled with a couple of extra components can > do the job. > > If the Gate of a MOSFET is below a certain voltage (relative to the > MOSFET's Source terminal) the MOSFET acts as an open switch. If the > Gate voltage exceeds the threshold the "switch" is closed and current > can flow from the Drain to the Source. The trick is to wire such a > beast up so that the Gate is below the threshold while welding, but > when the welding electrode is taken away from the work piece (open > circuit) the Gate voltage increases and the "switch" is turned on. > > Power MOSFETs can turn on very fast (20ns) ... but I'd still want the > capacitor protecting against transient voltage spikes. > > I think a resistor and a zener diode could do the trick ... if I can > find the time I'll put some more thought into it and post any further > thoughts here. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large diode in > > the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink > > protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from dammage to > > some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes in two > > heat sinks. > > Brent | 7956|7932|2005-05-16 23:20:23|jnikadie|Re: alternator welding|Along the lines of my earlier disclaimer, this ain't my field ... I'd like some feedback from other group members before anyone tries this (i.e. don't hold me responsible for anything!). If I was doing it I'd try to come up with the "open circuit load" I talked about in my last email ... but if I was in a rush I'd try one of these: Rated at 100V (125V peak) so it should handle the open circuit voltage. 1.5mF which is pretty good for such a high voltage rating. C$3.92 Or, for a little more head room (OK, a lot), but with less capacitance: Rated at 200V (250V peak), but a lower 1mF. C$5.74 Anyone else care to comment? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > What size of capacitor would it take. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > As always I need to start with a disclaimer ... power electronics > are > > not my thing, but I can't see how such a diode would help. > > > > My understanding is that the problem is caused by either the high > open > > circuit voltage or the transient voltage spike which I believe would > > occur as the welding arc is broken (caused by the inductance in the > > circuit trying to keep current flowing even though there is nowhere > > for it to go). > > > > The extra diode doesn't help mitigate either of these factors ... > > during open circuit conditions no current will flow through the > > external diode ... it will have no effect on the circuit. > > > > Perhaps a capacitor between the alternator's terminals will do the > job > > of surpressing the transient voltage spike (the current "induced" by > > the circuit's inductance flows into the capacitor ... and because it > > has somewhere to go the transient voltage spike is avoided). > > > > Providing a load that will avoid the high open circuit voltage (by > > ensuring the alternator never actually sees an open circuit) is > harder > > (especially as we don't want this load to effect the welding), but > > perhaps a power MOSFET coupled with a couple of extra components can > > do the job. > > > > If the Gate of a MOSFET is below a certain voltage (relative to the > > MOSFET's Source terminal) the MOSFET acts as an open switch. If the > > Gate voltage exceeds the threshold the "switch" is closed and > current > > can flow from the Drain to the Source. The trick is to wire such a > > beast up so that the Gate is below the threshold while welding, but > > when the welding electrode is taken away from the work piece (open > > circuit) the Gate voltage increases and the "switch" is turned on. > > > > Power MOSFETs can turn on very fast (20ns) ... but I'd still want > the > > capacitor protecting against transient voltage spikes. > > > > I think a resistor and a zener diode could do the trick ... if I can > > find the time I'll put some more thought into it and post any > further > > thoughts here. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large > diode in > > > the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink > > > protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from > dammage to > > > some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes > in two > > > heat sinks. > > > Brent | 7957|7932|2005-05-16 23:27:50|jnikadie|Re: alternator welding - one further caution|Brent, The capacitor might fix the transient voltage spike, but what of the other problem? Running the alternator open circuit? Do you have a plan to protect your alternator against this? Is this not the problem I thought it was (I remember reading a post of yours saying that the OC voltage was about 100V, so I guess you've had an alternator running OC ... although perhaps with bigger external diodes?). What alternator do you plan to use? The Pick-a-Part in Chilliwack sometimes has specials on alternators at $20 each ... if it wasn't so hard to get there I'd be tempted to buy a couple of alternators to test various theories out. Keep us posted. Julian. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > Along the lines of my earlier disclaimer, this ain't my field ... I'd > like some feedback from other group members before anyone tries this > (i.e. don't hold me responsible for anything!). > > If I was doing it I'd try to come up with the "open circuit load" I > talked about in my last email ... but if I was in a rush I'd try one > of these: > > > > Rated at 100V (125V peak) so it should handle the open circuit voltage. > > 1.5mF which is pretty good for such a high voltage rating. C$3.92 > > Or, for a little more head room (OK, a lot), but with less capacitance: > > > > Rated at 200V (250V peak), but a lower 1mF. C$5.74 > > > Anyone else care to comment? > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > What size of capacitor would it take. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > As always I need to start with a disclaimer ... power electronics > > are > > > not my thing, but I can't see how such a diode would help. > > > > > > My understanding is that the problem is caused by either the high > > open > > > circuit voltage or the transient voltage spike which I believe would > > > occur as the welding arc is broken (caused by the inductance in the > > > circuit trying to keep current flowing even though there is nowhere > > > for it to go). > > > > > > The extra diode doesn't help mitigate either of these factors ... > > > during open circuit conditions no current will flow through the > > > external diode ... it will have no effect on the circuit. > > > > > > Perhaps a capacitor between the alternator's terminals will do the > > job > > > of surpressing the transient voltage spike (the current "induced" by > > > the circuit's inductance flows into the capacitor ... and because it > > > has somewhere to go the transient voltage spike is avoided). > > > > > > Providing a load that will avoid the high open circuit voltage (by > > > ensuring the alternator never actually sees an open circuit) is > > harder > > > (especially as we don't want this load to effect the welding), but > > > perhaps a power MOSFET coupled with a couple of extra components can > > > do the job. > > > > > > If the Gate of a MOSFET is below a certain voltage (relative to the > > > MOSFET's Source terminal) the MOSFET acts as an open switch. If the > > > Gate voltage exceeds the threshold the "switch" is closed and > > current > > > can flow from the Drain to the Source. The trick is to wire such a > > > beast up so that the Gate is below the threshold while welding, but > > > when the welding electrode is taken away from the work piece (open > > > circuit) the Gate voltage increases and the "switch" is turned on. > > > > > > Power MOSFETs can turn on very fast (20ns) ... but I'd still want > > the > > > capacitor protecting against transient voltage spikes. > > > > > > I think a resistor and a zener diode could do the trick ... if I can > > > find the time I'll put some more thought into it and post any > > further > > > thoughts here. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large > > diode in > > > > the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink > > > > protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from > > dammage to > > > > some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes > > in two > > > > heat sinks. > > > > Brent | 7958|7932|2005-05-17 04:02:25|sae140|Re: alternator welding - one further caution|Using the KISS principle - for around $40 you could source 6x big "F-Off" (a commonly heard British welder's term) diodes. Agreed - it ain't a very technically clever solution - but it's one which is guaranteed 100% to work for the life of the welder, (i.e. the bloke on the stinger, not the plant) and will save considerable brain wear as a bonus . It's possible you might burn out the alternator windings after a few hundred hours of use (which can simply be replaced of course), but you'll *never* bust BIG diodes. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > Brent, > > The capacitor might fix the transient voltage spike, but what of the > other problem? Running the alternator open circuit? > > Do you have a plan to protect your alternator against this? > > Is this not the problem I thought it was (I remember reading a post of > yours saying that the OC voltage was about 100V, so I guess you've had > an alternator running OC ... although perhaps with bigger external > diodes?). > > What alternator do you plan to use? > > The Pick-a-Part in Chilliwack sometimes has specials on alternators at > $20 each ... if it wasn't so hard to get there I'd be tempted to buy a > couple of alternators to test various theories out. > > Keep us posted. > > Julian. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > Along the lines of my earlier disclaimer, this ain't my field ... I'd > > like some feedback from other group members before anyone tries this > > (i.e. don't hold me responsible for anything!). > > > > If I was doing it I'd try to come up with the "open circuit load" I > > talked about in my last email ... but if I was in a rush I'd try one > > of these: > > > > > > > > > Rated at 100V (125V peak) so it should handle the open circuit voltage. > > > > 1.5mF which is pretty good for such a high voltage rating. C$3.92 > > > > Or, for a little more head room (OK, a lot), but with less capacitance: > > > > > > > > > Rated at 200V (250V peak), but a lower 1mF. C$5.74 > > > > > > Anyone else care to comment? > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > What size of capacitor would it take. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > As always I need to start with a disclaimer ... power electronics > > > are > > > > not my thing, but I can't see how such a diode would help. > > > > > > > > My understanding is that the problem is caused by either the high > > > open > > > > circuit voltage or the transient voltage spike which I believe would > > > > occur as the welding arc is broken (caused by the inductance in the > > > > circuit trying to keep current flowing even though there is nowhere > > > > for it to go). > > > > > > > > The extra diode doesn't help mitigate either of these factors ... > > > > during open circuit conditions no current will flow through the > > > > external diode ... it will have no effect on the circuit. > > > > > > > > Perhaps a capacitor between the alternator's terminals will do the > > > job > > > > of surpressing the transient voltage spike (the current "induced" by > > > > the circuit's inductance flows into the capacitor ... and because it > > > > has somewhere to go the transient voltage spike is avoided). > > > > > > > > Providing a load that will avoid the high open circuit voltage (by > > > > ensuring the alternator never actually sees an open circuit) is > > > harder > > > > (especially as we don't want this load to effect the welding), but > > > > perhaps a power MOSFET coupled with a couple of extra components can > > > > do the job. > > > > > > > > If the Gate of a MOSFET is below a certain voltage (relative to the > > > > MOSFET's Source terminal) the MOSFET acts as an open switch. If the > > > > Gate voltage exceeds the threshold the "switch" is closed and > > > current > > > > can flow from the Drain to the Source. The trick is to wire such a > > > > beast up so that the Gate is below the threshold while welding, but > > > > when the welding electrode is taken away from the work piece (open > > > > circuit) the Gate voltage increases and the "switch" is turned on. > > > > > > > > Power MOSFETs can turn on very fast (20ns) ... but I'd still want > > > the > > > > capacitor protecting against transient voltage spikes. > > > > > > > > I think a resistor and a zener diode could do the trick ... if I can > > > > find the time I'll put some more thought into it and post any > > > further > > > > thoughts here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > I saw a diagram ising a standard auto alternator, with a large > > > diode in > > > > > the output line to the stinger. Would such a diode in a heat sink > > > > > protect the internal diodes in a standard alternaotor from > > > dammage to > > > > > some extent? This seems cheaper and easier than six large diodes > > > in two > > > > > heat sinks. > > > > > Brent | 7959|7959|2005-05-17 04:24:34|sae140|Welding diodes|I've uploaded a graphic of a BIG unbreakable diode, and a conventional diode from a hobby MIG welder for comparison - in OrigamiBoats2/photos. Colin| 7960|7960|2005-05-17 06:19:18|Gerd|happy anniversary ;-)|Last year Whitsun we started building our YAGO, so it's a year now . Did not go as fast as planned, but then we stopped completely for 6 month over the winter, plus lots of interruptions because of house renovation, bad weather, job-problems and so on. Alltogether that was the laziest weekend hull-building ever, thanks to Origami, and I have done quite a few before ;-) When will it float? Who cares ;-) Big Thankyou to you guys for getting me started a year ago! Gerd the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 7961|7961|2005-05-17 09:21:20|john kupris|Fwd: Fw: Fw: TUGBOAT WORTH THE WAIT FOR PICTURES|Note: forwarded message attached. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7962|7961|2005-05-17 13:37:12|john kupris|Fwd: Fw: Fw: TUGBOAT WORTH THE WAIT FOR PICTURES|Note: forwarded message attached. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7963|7963|2005-05-17 13:46:29|novascotia100|mast and motors|Hi Brent , not sure how else to get hold of you. I was wondering if the 31 footer is to small to support a steel mast , I don't want to go with wood because of the maint. Also I was wondering what the min horsepower should be for an engine, there have been a few yanmar's in the buy and sell as of late but I dont want to grab one incase it truns out to be too small. There also seems to be a few yanmar 10 horse industrial engines around for about 1000 bucks I was wondering if there is any way to put together a reliable reduction drive for one of these. Thanks Brian C in Comox PS still working on the fittings.| 7964|7964|2005-05-17 14:50:23|alexforsail|Island Breeze article|I have been lurking in the background for a couple of years now. I also think this is one of the best sites for the subject and diverse membership. I hope to have a Swain 40 in the near future. I finally thought I could add something interesting for the group. The following is a link to Latitude 38 and a "Changes" article about the Island Breeze owners: (http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes05-05.html#anchor 801997) I could not figure out how to make this a link. Alex H| 7965|7964|2005-05-17 19:52:54|Alex Christie|Re: Island Breeze article|I think the arrow keys usually make a URL work. Alex C On 17-May-05, at 11:49 AM, alexforsail wrote: > http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes05-05.html#anchor > 801997 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7966|7960|2005-05-17 21:01:46|Puck III|Re: happy anniversary ;-)|Congratulations Gerd , keep us posted , I look forward to see more pics on your website , remaining curious how the 26' is gone look like too :-) Keep on going !!!! Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Last year Whitsun we started building our YAGO, so it's a year now . > > Did not go as fast as planned, but then we stopped completely for 6 > month over the winter, plus lots of interruptions because of house > renovation, bad weather, job-problems and so on. Alltogether that was > the laziest weekend hull-building ever, thanks to Origami, and I have > done quite a few before ;-) > > When will it float? Who cares ;-) > > Big Thankyou to you guys for getting me started a year ago! > > Gerd > > the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 7967|7967|2005-05-19 04:13:51|Gerd|Sandblasting alternatives again...|Just posted this on boatbuilding.net in the metalboat forum, Copy to here, because since last time I asked, you might have some new ideas ;-) --- I am this season coming to the end of the steel-works on my hull (http://www.justmueller.com/boats/) and plan painting before next winter. Now, I have built several hulls before, and we always sandblasted ourselves with rented equipment and then painted with zinc-epoxy. These are not very pleasant memories, but over more than 20 years, these boats were literally maintenance free, and I still belive this to a near perfect solution. On the other hand, getting old and lazy and afraid of my neighbours, I still try to look at alternatives even if they are less than perfect. The hull was built from black steel and is by now unevenly rusted. Even after a Winter in rain and snow, some places still have the millscale on. So here are in loose order a number of questions that I really would appreciate your input on: - Does anybody have personal experience with alternative methods on black steel? - Is there a chemical way to REMOVE (not convert) rust from steel leaving a clean surface? ... same question for millscale, and same question again for rests of welding shlag in corners... - Is there a way to ACCELERATE rust?? I tried sprinkling water, leaving outside and so on, but I have still find a fast way to get an even rust-cover without any rests of millscale. - Rust converters - any experience? What happens to areas that are not evenly rusted and still covered with millscale? - Millscale - what would happen to millscale if it was painted over so it could not rust? - Zinc flame spraying: what surface preparation is required? what about millscale and rust in that case? What about the heat? - Liquid Zink applications a la ZINGA (http://www.zinga- uk.com/zinga_main.html) - does anbody have any eperience with that? - If sandblasted (and I am afraid it will come to that), what are your experiences with different paint options, both for the first coat (Zinga, epoxy...) as well as for following coats All ideas very much appreciated, even if I think I already know the bitter end... ;) Gerd| 7968|7967|2005-05-19 05:47:28|fmichael graham|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Gerd: I feel for you, but - in my humble opinion - the only way your going to be sure that all surfaces & joints are clean & that paint will adhere well, is to blast & degrease. It would be a shame to cut corners on such a sharp looking boat, at this point. Better to go through hell, now, & not regret that you didn't, later. Mike Gerd wrote: Just posted this on boatbuilding.net in the metalboat forum, Copy to here, because since last time I asked, you might have some new ideas ;-) --- I am this season coming to the end of the steel-works on my hull (http://www.justmueller.com/boats/) and plan painting before next winter. Now, I have built several hulls before, and we always sandblasted ourselves with rented equipment and then painted with zinc-epoxy. These are not very pleasant memories, but over more than 20 years, these boats were literally maintenance free, and I still belive this to a near perfect solution. On the other hand, getting old and lazy and afraid of my neighbours, I still try to look at alternatives even if they are less than perfect. The hull was built from black steel and is by now unevenly rusted. Even after a Winter in rain and snow, some places still have the millscale on. So here are in loose order a number of questions that I really would appreciate your input on: - Does anybody have personal experience with alternative methods on black steel? - Is there a chemical way to REMOVE (not convert) rust from steel leaving a clean surface? ... same question for millscale, and same question again for rests of welding shlag in corners... - Is there a way to ACCELERATE rust?? I tried sprinkling water, leaving outside and so on, but I have still find a fast way to get an even rust-cover without any rests of millscale. - Rust converters - any experience? What happens to areas that are not evenly rusted and still covered with millscale? - Millscale - what would happen to millscale if it was painted over so it could not rust? - Zinc flame spraying: what surface preparation is required? what about millscale and rust in that case? What about the heat? - Liquid Zink applications a la ZINGA (http://www.zinga- uk.com/zinga_main.html) - does anbody have any eperience with that? - If sandblasted (and I am afraid it will come to that), what are your experiences with different paint options, both for the first coat (Zinga, epoxy...) as well as for following coats All ideas very much appreciated, even if I think I already know the bitter end... ;) Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7969|7967|2005-05-19 06:32:58|Gerd|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Mike, I know... but really, I have been there in hell so often, and when I was much younger than now, that I really do not want to do it again myself. I am in discussion with local people here to have it done on site, but that's difficult to find and - even with local wages - still quite expensive. Also, I live in a nice neighbourhood, they are already p...d off with the noise from cutting and grinding from last year, they never said anything, but as they now see (hear) the second season starting, the first timid complaints start coming in. They would for sure not be happy with the blasting, compressor noise and dust all over their neice gardens. On top of that our area is a protected natural reserve, recreational area with weekend houses, the field next to our garden is owned by the watercompany for pumping from wells and so on, so if anybody would like to throw me stones they would find an easy target. To tell the truth, it's really not ok that I ever started building in my garden in the first place... ;-) Its not dramatic yet, and I probably will simply go through with the blasting. Still, I would like to research alternatives to get a better idea. BTW, we did not degrease: blasting and then painting the same day all that was done and keeping your fingers off it in the meantime was ok. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Gerd: > I feel for you, but - in my humble opinion - the only way your going to be sure that all surfaces & joints are clean & that paint will adhere well, is to blast & degrease. It would be a shame to cut corners on such a sharp looking boat, at this point. Better to go through hell, now, & not regret that you didn't, later. > Mike > > > Gerd wrote: > Just posted this on boatbuilding.net in the metalboat forum, Copy to > here, because since last time I asked, you might have some new > ideas ;-) > --- > I am this season coming to the end of the steel-works on my hull > (http://www.justmueller.com/boats/) and plan painting before next > winter. > > Now, I have built several hulls before, and we always sandblasted > ourselves with rented equipment and then painted with zinc-epoxy. > These are not very pleasant memories, but over more than 20 years, > these boats were literally maintenance free, and I still belive this > to a near perfect solution. > > On the other hand, getting old and lazy and afraid of my neighbours, > I still try to look at alternatives even if they are less than > perfect. > > The hull was built from black steel and is by now unevenly rusted. > Even after a Winter in rain and snow, some places still have the > millscale on. > > So here are in loose order a number of questions that I really would > appreciate your input on: > > - Does anybody have personal experience with alternative methods on > black steel? > > - Is there a chemical way to REMOVE (not convert) rust from steel > leaving a clean surface? ... same question for millscale, and same > question again for rests of welding shlag in corners... > > - Is there a way to ACCELERATE rust?? I tried sprinkling water, > leaving outside and so on, but I have still find a fast way to get > an even rust-cover without any rests of millscale. > > - Rust converters - any experience? What happens to areas that are > not evenly rusted and still covered with millscale? > > - Millscale - what would happen to millscale if it was painted over > so it could not rust? > > - Zinc flame spraying: what surface preparation is required? what > about millscale and rust in that case? What about the heat? > > - Liquid Zink applications a la ZINGA (http://www.zinga- > uk.com/zinga_main.html) - does anbody have any eperience with that? > > - If sandblasted (and I am afraid it will come to that), what are > your experiences with different paint options, both for the first > coat (Zinga, epoxy...) as well as for following coats > > > All ideas very much appreciated, even if I think I already know the > bitter end... ;) > > Gerd > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7970|7943|2005-05-19 11:54:17|Henri Naths|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|thanks Michael, Seer and all for the information about winged keels, Henri. ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: 16 May, 2005 9:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ben lexcen's winged keel > There are several concerns about the wing keel on a cruising boat. > First, you can get hung up and in on all sorts of things in the water, > lobster pot lines, old nets, jettisoned steel cable, mooring lines, > even large strands of kelp. > > Second, any boat that is intended to 'ground' every now or then, runs > the risk of the 'rubber boot in the deep mud' phenomenon, i.e. it > really 'sux'. > > Thirdly, they are a bit difficult to form out of sheet steel, without > getting lots of drag inducing hydrodynamic anomalies. > > In racing, its all about fractions of improvement and those fractions > rarely represent 'bang for the buck' scenarios :) > > My own thought is to add some 1/2" or thicker steel plate to the > bottoms of the swain bilge keels. More weight, more unpainted steel to > take bottoming which i intend to do frequently. I like the idea of > not having to seek out a yard to haul the boat everytime i want to do > some bottom maintenance. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: >> re: Mark Clark's book " RED DOG & GREAT WHITE Inside the America's Cup. >> " A second shot rang out over Rhode Island Sound on September 26, > 1983. Four hours, fifteen minutes after the first cannon roar, the > second- fired from the deck of Black Night- proclaimed Australia II's > victory. Forty- one seconds later Liberty crossed the finish line" >> This victory was attributed to the winged keel designed by Ben > Lexcen. >> Any comments? Conjectures, ramblings, insights, new and improved > ideas? >> Henri >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7971|7943|2005-05-19 14:12:21|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|Austrialia's winged keel was a very clever response to a very restrictive racing rule, a rule that realy restricted draft to a level that given the size of the boats and the rule driven depth of the 12 meter's canoe body reduced the effectiveness of the keel foil and produced a lot of induced tip votex drag. Austrailis wings did three things, they lowered the vertical center of gravity, they provided lift when heeled and they reduced tip vortex drag enormously. They chieved these results, especially the increased lift when heeled, by having a very long span on the winglets, too long to be ideal for a cruising boat. As mentioned wings can be vulnerable to damage and fouling lines, and can really make freeing from a grounding quite difficult. Bulb keels are generally thought to be a better alternative for a shoal draft cruising boat. Like a wing keel, bulb keels allow the center of gravity of the ballast to be placed lower, which can greatly increase stability and motion comfort (which is especially important on a boat with the high vertical center of gravity typical of most steel hulled, steel sparred boats.) Properly shaped they have less drag than a winged keel and also properly shaped they can act as an endplate reducing the size of the keel's tip vortex and with that the induced drag associated with the tip vortex. In US Naval Academy studies, bulb keels were also found to be easier to free in a grounding situation. Respectfully, Jeff| 7972|7967|2005-05-19 15:36:19|khooper_fboats|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Surely this is just crazy-talk but what would be the result if you hit the hull lightly with the grinder, everywhere, then went immediately over it with a good two-part epoxy? No attention to tooth profile, no primer of any kind, no particular attention to rust and scale (if it won't come off with grindinging then it probably won't jump off by itself as long as it stays coated). I think I am going to do this and hope for the best. Modern epoxies seem to be pretty impressive by themselves. To make things even more festive I think I will use a paint roller for application. Just thinking out loud as I don't even have my plans yet. But I am getting close. --Hoop| 7973|7967|2005-05-19 16:01:26|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Friends wet blasted with a pressure washer in California in the 80's . The weather was hot and dry and they ran along behind the blaster with rags wiping the exces water off. It turned red immediately, but dried quickly. They put severall coats of epoxy tar on and the hull still looks good. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Gerd: > I feel for you, but - in my humble opinion - the only way your going to be sure that all surfaces & joints are clean & that paint will adhere well, is to blast & degrease. It would be a shame to cut corners on such a sharp looking boat, at this point. Better to go through hell, now, & not regret that you didn't, later. > Mike > > > Gerd wrote: > Just posted this on boatbuilding.net in the metalboat forum, Copy to > here, because since last time I asked, you might have some new > ideas ;-) > --- > I am this season coming to the end of the steel-works on my hull > (http://www.justmueller.com/boats/) and plan painting before next > winter. > > Now, I have built several hulls before, and we always sandblasted > ourselves with rented equipment and then painted with zinc-epoxy. > These are not very pleasant memories, but over more than 20 years, > these boats were literally maintenance free, and I still belive this > to a near perfect solution. > > On the other hand, getting old and lazy and afraid of my neighbours, > I still try to look at alternatives even if they are less than > perfect. > > The hull was built from black steel and is by now unevenly rusted. > Even after a Winter in rain and snow, some places still have the > millscale on. > > So here are in loose order a number of questions that I really would > appreciate your input on: > > - Does anybody have personal experience with alternative methods on > black steel? > > - Is there a chemical way to REMOVE (not convert) rust from steel > leaving a clean surface? ... same question for millscale, and same > question again for rests of welding shlag in corners... > > - Is there a way to ACCELERATE rust?? I tried sprinkling water, > leaving outside and so on, but I have still find a fast way to get > an even rust-cover without any rests of millscale. > > - Rust converters - any experience? What happens to areas that are > not evenly rusted and still covered with millscale? > > - Millscale - what would happen to millscale if it was painted over > so it could not rust? > > - Zinc flame spraying: what surface preparation is required? what > about millscale and rust in that case? What about the heat? > > - Liquid Zink applications a la ZINGA (http://www.zinga- > uk.com/zinga_main.html) - does anbody have any eperience with that? > > - If sandblasted (and I am afraid it will come to that), what are > your experiences with different paint options, both for the first > coat (Zinga, epoxy...) as well as for following coats > > > All ideas very much appreciated, even if I think I already know the > bitter end... ;) > > Gerd > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7974|7787|2005-05-19 16:02:32|brentswain38|Re: Shady Business :-)|Some moulds are pretty toxic. Sometimes the only choice is between the lesser of evils. A good airing is easy to do ,and a trip to the laundromat is easier to deal with than permanent mould Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I would note the stuff of which std mothballs are made is a pretty > heavy duty carcenogen. Lots of ventilation called for here, especially > if you have kids about and around. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I heard an article on CBC where someone had developed a way to extend > > the mould fighting characteristics of calcium carbonate indefinitly. > > It normally works for a short time only. This stuff, if added to > > paint ,used on an air duct ,killed all of the bacteria in the first > > few feet. > > For storing charts, books ,winter clothes, etc at sea in the > > tropics, put them in plastic garbage bags with mothballs. They may be > > a bit smelly when you take them out, but an hour or two in the wind > > takes care of that.It all evaporates quickly. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > Ted, > > > Canestan and its replacement Hexal Clotreme --- now that is > > essential when > > > the crotch rot / jock itch sets in!! > > > We have been here 10 years and the first year when I got a patch, I > > actually > > > went to the doc. thinking "What the hell is this?" > > > His diagnosis and advice was short and to the point " To avoid > > crotch rot, > > > wear loose fitting pants or no underclothes at all " > > > Mould in boats is not yet a problem for me, and it is strange how > > some house > > > surfaces grow it quickly and others don't seem to have any at all. > > Mould > > > seems to ignore the "anti mould" words on some interior paint cans > > as well. > > > Regards, > > > Terry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > > > Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 04:22 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) | 7975|7963|2005-05-19 16:10:47|brentswain38|Re: mast and motors|one owner with a 31 ft twin keeler used a 5 inch steel mast with a 1/8th inch wall and was quite happy with it..I had a ten HP diesel in my 31 footer for the first 12 years and it was adequate . Witht hat size of motor you need neither registry nor K number until you head ofshore. I've since gone for a 20 HP engine, but the difference is not all that great Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "novascotia100" wrote: > Hi Brent , not sure how else to get hold of you. I was wondering if the > 31 footer is to small to support a steel mast , I don't want to go with > wood because of the maint. Also I was wondering what the min horsepower > should be for an engine, there have been a few yanmar's in the buy and > sell as of late but I dont want to grab one incase it truns out to be > too small. There also seems to be a few yanmar 10 horse industrial > engines around for about 1000 bucks I was wondering if there is any way > to put together a reliable reduction drive for one of these. > Thanks > Brian C in Comox > PS still working on the fittings. | 7976|7967|2005-05-19 16:30:31|fmichael graham|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Hoop: Just a thought, or two: I gather from Gerd's response to my suggestions, that he doesn't want to make too much noise, which may be a concern with grinding, also. The epoxy idea seems like a good one, but, wouldn't that be much more expensive? I know that many boaters now use dynel coating on their boats, yet, whenever I ask the marine shop workers about this, they just roll their eyes & ask how big my wallet is! (I've never had the guts to carry the conversations beyond this point! lol) When available, I would always go with a zinc-plated material. Of course, at this point, that comment doesn't help Gerd one hell of a lot! Oh well, I'm sure there's a member out there who can recommend the right method. Mike khooper_fboats wrote: Surely this is just crazy-talk but what would be the result if you hit the hull lightly with the grinder, everywhere, then went immediately over it with a good two-part epoxy? No attention to tooth profile, no primer of any kind, no particular attention to rust and scale (if it won't come off with grindinging then it probably won't jump off by itself as long as it stays coated). I think I am going to do this and hope for the best. Modern epoxies seem to be pretty impressive by themselves. To make things even more festive I think I will use a paint roller for application. Just thinking out loud as I don't even have my plans yet. But I am getting close. --Hoop To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7977|7967|2005-05-19 17:38:13|Gerd|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Brent - just a washer??? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Friends wet blasted with a pressure washer in California in the > 80's . The weather was hot and dry and they ran along behind the > blaster with rags wiping the exces water off. It turned red > immediately, but dried quickly. They put severall coats of epoxy tar > on and the hull still looks good. > Brent > this message have been removed]| 7978|7967|2005-05-19 18:03:11|Gerd|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Hoop, you have something there, although I guess that the result might be better if you have a rust-converter under the epoxy. the problems I still see with all converters and paint-over concepts is the fact that a) it's very difficult to get the corners cleaned out with a grinder and b) there will be millscale anyway that has not rusted away. there will probably be brand new black pieces of steel added until the last moment that will never have the time to rust.. if it was only for the flat open surfaces like hull exteriore, I am sure it's possible... What makes me think that there must be a way to do that, is that I have found a lot of newsgroups and stuff from other areas like vintage car restoration and so on. Car underbodies for example are living in a very agressive chemical and mechanical environment. Much more so than the inside of a hull probably. On product that turns up there again and again is POR-15 (www.por-15.com) as being incredibly tough and resistant. POR also produces a grease cleaning product as well as Metal-Ready that "...provides the best adhesion for POR-15® on any surface, including aluminum and shiny polished metal surfaces. Our simple process gently etches metal, creating an ideal anchor pattern ..." Etches steel? I sent them a mail and wait for answer. Still, like Hoop says, drowning the whole thing, rust, dust and shlag and scale and flakes and all, in resign ... why not - After all, flies in amber don't rot either after a million years, do they? so, guys, come up with something, I might just be ready to try it out for you!! ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Surely this is just crazy-talk but what would be the result if you hit > the hull lightly with the grinder, everywhere, then went immediately > over it with a good two-part epoxy? No attention to tooth profile, no > primer of any kind, no particular attention to rust and scale (if it > won't come off with grindinging then it probably won't jump off by > itself as long as it stays coated). > > I think I am going to do this and hope for the best. Modern epoxies > seem to be pretty impressive by themselves. To make things even more > festive I think I will use a paint roller for application. Just > thinking out loud as I don't even have my plans yet. But I am getting > close. > > --Hoop | 7979|7967|2005-05-19 18:58:59|fmichael graham|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Gerd: Etching in auto-resto lingo refers to chemical (acid bath) etching. What I have found, is that POR seems to really bond to metal, better than paint or primer. I sprayed the lower doorskins on a '59 chev pickup when I bought it, in the hopes that the cancer wouldn't continue to spread while the truck was in storage. Several months later - last weekend - I sanded off the protectant/converter to begin repair. I had to use kerosene to "dig" the stuff out of the metal, as the alternative was to grind deeper. as I am trying to restore this truck with a minimal amount of filler, I didn't want to add any divits to the metal. I realize that we may be talking "apples & oranges", in terms of environmental conditions but, I was amazed with how this stuff "stuck". Mind you, it's not all that cheap either, especially, if you need to cover both sides of a hull! Mike Gerd wrote: Hoop, you have something there, although I guess that the result might be better if you have a rust-converter under the epoxy. the problems I still see with all converters and paint-over concepts is the fact that a) it's very difficult to get the corners cleaned out with a grinder and b) there will be millscale anyway that has not rusted away. there will probably be brand new black pieces of steel added until the last moment that will never have the time to rust.. if it was only for the flat open surfaces like hull exteriore, I am sure it's possible... What makes me think that there must be a way to do that, is that I have found a lot of newsgroups and stuff from other areas like vintage car restoration and so on. Car underbodies for example are living in a very agressive chemical and mechanical environment. Much more so than the inside of a hull probably. On product that turns up there again and again is POR-15 (www.por-15.com) as being incredibly tough and resistant. POR also produces a grease cleaning product as well as Metal-Ready that "...provides the best adhesion for POR-15� on any surface, including aluminum and shiny polished metal surfaces. Our simple process gently etches metal, creating an ideal anchor pattern ..." Etches steel? I sent them a mail and wait for answer. Still, like Hoop says, drowning the whole thing, rust, dust and shlag and scale and flakes and all, in resign ... why not - After all, flies in amber don't rot either after a million years, do they? so, guys, come up with something, I might just be ready to try it out for you!! ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Surely this is just crazy-talk but what would be the result if you hit > the hull lightly with the grinder, everywhere, then went immediately > over it with a good two-part epoxy? No attention to tooth profile, no > primer of any kind, no particular attention to rust and scale (if it > won't come off with grindinging then it probably won't jump off by > itself as long as it stays coated). > > I think I am going to do this and hope for the best. Modern epoxies > seem to be pretty impressive by themselves. To make things even more > festive I think I will use a paint roller for application. Just > thinking out loud as I don't even have my plans yet. But I am getting > close. > > --Hoop To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 7980|7967|2005-05-19 21:48:26|Michael Casling|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|I painted my cast iron keel with POR about four or five years ago. I used the left over paint on the box and rear bumper of the truck. It all stuck great. I used the metal primer on the keel. Last winter I ground the keel down to bare metal again and applied a gallon of waterproof filler to smooth the casting blemishes and add a bit of fullness forward. The POR was tough to grind off. I have not suggested it for painting the bare hull as I do not want to be the one that might cause someone a lot of grief later, but I think it would work very well. It dries to a very smooth finish. But the really neat thing is it can be used in damp and cold weather conditions. In fact it dries better in crappy conditions than when it is hot and dry. Also a bit of surface rust is not a problem. I found the folks at POR to be user friendly. They have an 800 number that we can use for free. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting alternatives again... What makes me think that there must be a way to do that, is that I have found a lot of newsgroups and stuff from other areas like vintage car restoration and so on. Car underbodies for example are living in a very agressive chemical and mechanical environment. Much more so than the inside of a hull probably. On product that turns up there again and again is POR-15 (www.por-15.com) as being incredibly tough and resistant. POR also produces a grease cleaning product as well as Metal-Ready that "...provides the best adhesion for POR-15® on any surface, including aluminum and shiny polished metal surfaces. Our simple process gently etches metal, creating an ideal anchor pattern ..." Etches steel? I sent them a mail and wait for answer. Gerd [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7981|7967|2005-05-20 12:33:54|khooper_fboats|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|> Still, like Hoop says, drowning the whole thing, rust, dust and shlag > and scale and flakes and all, in resign ... why not - After all, flies > in amber don't rot either after a million years, do they? Yes and come to think of it, whole new worlds of possibilities open up aesthetically. Silver flake? You got it! 8^)| 7982|7982|2005-05-20 15:45:22|brentswain38|Collapsible water tanks|When I read in a catalogue about collapsible watertanks using a rubber bladder inside a nylon outer shell, I thought" Innertubes " I use an innertube for a solar shower in summer. After the first couple I smell a bit like an innrtube( which is sometimes an improvement) but after that there is no noticable smell. When I find my tube I plan to leave water in it for a few weeks, then check it for taste. The valve part is reinforced and with a larger hole cut out around the valve, It is a good place to install a plastic thru hull fitting. Most tire shops say" Help your self to anything you find in the dumpster. Some of the industrial ones are huge. They can be crammed into whatever space you want, then filled ,and when you are on short passages and don't need to stock up on water, leave the space available for other storage Brent| 7983|7967|2005-05-20 15:51:52|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|I went into a rental place and asked if they have a wet blaster . It was an extremely simple arrangement , which used a jet of water from a pressure washer 3GPM minimum with a venturi effect to pull sand thru a plastic hose into the water stream. I was thinking of renting it for a day( $15 ), to make a copy. The brass fitting looked like it wouldn't cost all that much . Perhaps people who sell pressure washes will have one for sale . Brent 't \--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent - just a washer??? > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Friends wet blasted with a pressure washer in California in the > > 80's . The weather was hot and dry and they ran along behind the > > blaster with rags wiping the exces water off. It turned red > > immediately, but dried quickly. They put severall coats of epoxy tar > > on and the hull still looks good. > > Brent > > > this message have been removed] | 7984|7967|2005-05-20 15:54:17|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|I tried etching several times with disasterous results. No matter how much I tried to get the acid off, enough of it always remained to cause severe corroding behind the paint.Others I know have all had the same experience. Autos don't float full time in seawater. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Gerd: > Etching in auto-resto lingo refers to chemical (acid bath) etching. What I have found, is that POR seems to really bond to metal, better than paint or primer. I sprayed the lower doorskins on a '59 chev pickup when I bought it, in the hopes that the cancer wouldn't continue to spread while the truck was in storage. Several months later - last weekend - I sanded off the protectant/converter to begin repair. I had to use kerosene to "dig" the stuff out of the metal, as the alternative was to grind deeper. as I am trying to restore this truck with a minimal amount of filler, I didn't want to add any divits to the metal. I realize that we may be talking "apples & oranges", in terms of environmental conditions but, I was amazed with how this stuff "stuck". Mind you, it's not all that cheap either, especially, if you need to cover both sides of a hull! > Mike > > > Gerd wrote: > Hoop, you have something there, although I guess that the result might > be better if you have a rust-converter under the epoxy. > the problems I still see with all converters and paint-over concepts > is the fact that > a) it's very difficult to get the corners cleaned out with a grinder > and > b) there will be millscale anyway that has not rusted away. there will > probably be brand new black pieces of steel added until the last > moment that will never have the time to rust.. > > if it was only for the flat open surfaces like hull exteriore, I am > sure it's possible... > > What makes me think that there must be a way to do that, is that I > have found a lot of newsgroups and stuff from other areas like vintage > car restoration and so on. Car underbodies for example are living in a > very agressive chemical and mechanical environment. Much more so than > the inside of a hull probably. On product that turns up there again > and again is POR-15 (www.por-15.com) as being incredibly tough and > resistant. POR also produces a grease cleaning product as well as > Metal-Ready that "...provides the best adhesion for POR-15® on any > surface, including aluminum and shiny polished metal surfaces. Our > simple process gently etches metal, creating an ideal anchor > pattern ..." Etches steel? I sent them a mail and wait for answer. > > Still, like Hoop says, drowning the whole thing, rust, dust and shlag > and scale and flakes and all, in resign ... why not - After all, flies > in amber don't rot either after a million years, do they? > > so, guys, come up with something, I might just be ready to try it out > for you!! ;-) > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > Surely this is just crazy-talk but what would be the result if you > hit > > the hull lightly with the grinder, everywhere, then went immediately > > over it with a good two-part epoxy? No attention to tooth profile, no > > primer of any kind, no particular attention to rust and scale (if it > > won't come off with grindinging then it probably won't jump off by > > itself as long as it stays coated). > > > > I think I am going to do this and hope for the best. Modern epoxies > > seem to be pretty impressive by themselves. To make things even more > > festive I think I will use a paint roller for application. Just > > thinking out loud as I don't even have my plans yet. But I am getting > > close. > > > > --Hoop > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 7985|7967|2005-05-20 15:59:20|Gerd|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|Brent - yes I know about wet blasting, and - if the following paint would support a minimum of "fresh" rust - that would alt least take care of the dust problem. But from your mail it sounded as if your friends had used a WASHER, meaning no sand, just water - did they? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > I went into a rental place and asked if they have a wet blaster . It > was an extremely simple arrangement , which used a jet of water from a > pressure washer 3GPM minimum with a venturi effect to pull sand thru a > plastic hose into the water stream. I was thinking of renting it for a > day( $15 ), to make a copy. The brass fitting looked like it > wouldn't cost all that much . Perhaps people who sell pressure washes > will have one for sale . > Brent > > > 't \--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Brent - just a washer??? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Friends wet blasted with a pressure washer in California in the > > > 80's . The weather was hot and dry and they ran along behind the > > > blaster with rags wiping the exces water off. It turned red > > > immediately, but dried quickly. They put severall coats of epoxy > tar > > > on and the hull still looks good. > > > Brent > > > > > this message have been removed] | 7986|7967|2005-05-20 21:00:46|kendall|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I tried etching several times with disasterous results. No matter how > much I tried to get the acid off, enough of it always remained to > cause severe corroding behind the paint.Others I know have all had > the same experience. Autos don't float full time in seawater. > Brent well, unless you drive the michigan backroads. Most cars in the winter here are white, not from snow. I agree, I don't like to etch anything I can't soak for a few days, if it's too big to throw in a bucket, I'd rather sand it regardless of the size. any real good primers/paint that will take heat? it's the way I prefer working, prep metal, weld, then repaint the welds as soon as possible. Only problem is that most of the primers I've used don't take heat all that well and if applied too soon melt or flake off soon after. ken.| 7987|7982|2005-05-21 05:18:47|sae140|Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks|This morning on England's east coast it's 60 degrees (15 C) with overcast sun, but in my polytunnels with their vents closed it's 110 degrees (43 C). So - with cooler climes in mind - maybe there's a case for enclosing the inner tube inside a polythene cover ? I'm sure a plant nursery would give you their offcuts of stuff which typically lasts at least 3 years when permanently exposed to sunlight. If the tube was laid flat on the deck during the heating period with a curved frame (same as a polytunnel) or even a dome (!) over it, then the light incidence from all angles of the sky would be optimised, and would save faffing around trying to get that last ray or two. Obviously this wouldn't be an issue in the tropics. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > When I read in a catalogue about collapsible watertanks using a rubber > bladder inside a nylon outer shell, I thought" Innertubes " I use an > innertube for a solar shower in summer. After the first couple I smell > a bit like an innrtube( which is sometimes an improvement) but after > that there is no noticable smell. When I find my tube I plan to leave > water in it for a few weeks, then check it for taste. > The valve part is reinforced and with a larger hole cut out around > the valve, It is a good place to install a plastic thru hull fitting. > Most tire shops say" Help your self to anything you find in the > dumpster. Some of the industrial ones are huge. They can be crammed > into whatever space you want, then filled ,and when you are on short > passages and don't need to stock up on water, leave the space available > for other storage > Brent | 7988|7982|2005-05-21 08:50:32|Courtney Thomas|Re: Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks|What are polytunnels, please ? Thanks, Courtney On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 04:18, sae140 wrote: > This morning on England's east coast it's 60 degrees > (15 C) with overcast sun, but in my polytunnels with > their vents closed it's 110 degrees (43 C). > So - with cooler climes in mind - maybe there's a case > for enclosing the inner tube inside a polythene cover ? > I'm sure a plant nursery would give you their offcuts > of stuff which typically lasts at least 3 years when > permanently exposed to sunlight. > > If the tube was laid flat on the deck during the heating > period with a curved frame (same as a polytunnel) or > even a dome (!) over it, then the light incidence from > all angles of the sky would be optimised, and would save > faffing around trying to get that last ray or two. > Obviously this wouldn't be an issue in the tropics. > > Colin > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > When I read in a catalogue about collapsible watertanks using a > rubber > > bladder inside a nylon outer shell, I thought" Innertubes " I use an > > innertube for a solar shower in summer. After the first couple I > smell > > a bit like an innrtube( which is sometimes an improvement) but after > > that there is no noticable smell. When I find my tube I plan to leave > > water in it for a few weeks, then check it for taste. > > The valve part is reinforced and with a larger hole cut out around > > the valve, It is a good place to install a plastic thru hull fitting. > > Most tire shops say" Help your self to anything you find in the > > dumpster. Some of the industrial ones are huge. They can be crammed > > into whatever space you want, then filled ,and when you are on short > > passages and don't need to stock up on water, leave the space > available > > for other storage > > Brent > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7989|7982|2005-05-21 19:51:51|sae140|Re: Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > What are polytunnels, please ? > > Thanks, > Courtney > Kinda like greenhouses, made from steel hoops with a plastic sheet stretched over them. Used for the accelerated growing of crops which results from the raised temperature and humidity inside them when clear plastic is used. Can also be used to protect boats whilst undergoing construction/repair (!). Or to house sheep during winter. White plastic sheet gives a degree of shade, green even more so. Black plastic is used for mushroom growing. Plenty of other uses. Colin| 7990|7982|2005-05-22 08:30:22|Courtney Thomas|Re: Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks|Thank you. Do you fabricate the hoops yourself and if yes, what's your procedure, please ? Also, how do you attach the poly ? Cordially, Courtney On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 18:51, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > > What are polytunnels, please ? > > > > Thanks, > > Courtney > > > > Kinda like greenhouses, made from steel hoops with a > plastic sheet stretched over them. Used for the > accelerated growing of crops which results from the > raised temperature and humidity inside them when clear > plastic is used. > > Can also be used to protect boats whilst undergoing > construction/repair (!). Or to house sheep during > winter. White plastic sheet gives a degree of shade, > green even more so. Black plastic is used for mushroom > growing. Plenty of other uses. > > Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 7991|7943|2005-05-22 11:14:35|nortje_wynand|Re: ben lexcen's winged keel|Incidently, I started a tread at BoatDesign.net about a simple and cheap "wing" keel for steelboats. Although it is not as high tech as Ben Lexcen's brain child, it should be effective. The excercise is not to lower the ballast as Lexcen did with his wing keel, but rather to stop tip end losses at the keel, where a lost of lift is lost in the form of vortices. Link: http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7532 Thanks Wynand| 7992|7992|2005-05-22 11:36:24|nortje_wynand|Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|In earlier posts the purpose of endplates to the tips of keels were questioned and no clear explanation was given as such. I'll try to explain this in a simple way. Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. End plates (wings - lenght of keel tip) at the keel bottom are there to contain the flow on the high pressure side of the keel. This will/should bring about that no flow moves up or down the lenght of the keel and thereby in effect creates an infinite aspect ratio, with no lifting losses at the root (hull side) and the keel tip/bottom. This arrangement should make a boat goes to windward like a bat out of hell but would have no advantage running downwind however. In fact, the boat might be a touch slower in light winds due to the increased parasitic drag (form & friction) Should be interesting on a twin keel arrangement..... Fair winds Wynand| 7993|7992|2005-05-22 11:51:58|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Also makes a great plow ancher for those that beach a twin keel and give whole new meaning to stuck on the beach ...Ouch. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > In earlier posts the purpose of endplates to the tips of keels were > questioned and no clear explanation was given as such. I'll try to > explain this in a simple way. > > Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by > "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure > side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end > plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel > bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the > high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. > > End plates (wings - lenght of keel tip) at the keel bottom are there > to contain the flow on the high pressure side of the keel. > This will/should bring about that no flow moves up or down the lenght > of the keel and thereby in effect creates an infinite aspect ratio, > with no lifting losses at the root (hull side) and the keel > tip/bottom. > > This arrangement should make a boat goes to windward like a bat out of > hell but would have no advantage running downwind however. In fact, > the boat might be a touch slower in light winds due to the increased > parasitic drag (form & friction) > > Should be interesting on a twin keel arrangement..... > > Fair winds > > Wynand | 7994|7967|2005-05-22 14:40:24|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|I would like more information about wet blasters. The sand that I use will eventually kill the neighbors and I. Brents comments about the washers pressure pulling the sand into the hose has me wondering about a very high pressure water pump along with pressure fed sand. I would be very interested in reading about or hearing about a commercial system. As for the question about heating the plate from flame spraying. There is very little heat. I can lay my hand on the area that I have flame sprayed after waiting a minute or so. The metal plate sucks up the heat. Gerald| 7995|7982|2005-05-22 16:18:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks|I've spent the past 18 years working in the greenhouse industry. I happen to know the guy who developed the whole idea of plastic covered greenhouses, Dr Bill Roberts at Rutgers University. When plastic coverings for greenhouses were first tried they were a miserable failure. The slightest bit of excess wind and the plastic beat itself to death against the structure and ripped off. Dr Roberts came up with the idea of using two sheets of plastic, and inflating the space between them with a small air blower. The inner sheet is pressed tight against the pipe framework, and the outer sheet stands away from everything except at the edges where it is fastened. The air between the sheets also provides insulation. Modern greenhouse coverings are available in sheets large enough to cover a hoop house that is 36' wide, 18 feet high, and 300' feet long. The sheets last two to four years now. Most growers will cover the plastic with shade cloth if they want to reduce the heat in the summer. Shade cloth is made from woven polypropylene that is black in color. It both reduces the temperature inside and protects the plastic from deteriorating so fast. The frames are typically made from 1-1/2 to 2" fence rail pipe, which is cheaper than regular pipe. Most people frame in the ends of the hoops using ordinary 2x 4 lumber. A 2x6 is typically fastened to the hoops at the ground and is used as a nailer strip to fasten the two sheets of plastic. You need to properly fasten these things down to the ground. My father-in-law bought a commercial structure about 20 x 4 feet. He didn't fasten it down well enough and lost in the first storm two weeks after he put it up. It wound up all crumpled up in the neighbors yard! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: >> What are polytunnels, please ? >> >> Thanks, >> Courtney >> > > Kinda like greenhouses, made from steel hoops with a > plastic sheet stretched over them. Used for the > accelerated growing of crops which results from the > raised temperature and humidity inside them when clear > plastic is used. > > Can also be used to protect boats whilst undergoing > construction/repair (!). Or to house sheep during > winter. White plastic sheet gives a degree of shade, > green even more so. Black plastic is used for mushroom > growing. Plenty of other uses. > > Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 7996|7982|2005-05-22 17:16:37|sae140|Re: Solar shower - was Collapsible water tanks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Thank you. > > Do you fabricate the hoops yourself and if yes, what's your procedure, > please ? > > Also, how do you attach the poly ? > > Cordially, > Courtney They may look home-made (!) but there is big machinery involved in the making of polytunnel frames. My own tunnels are 20 and 30 foot clear-span commercial units - these use 2.5" dia tubes, and have support trusses and longitudinal bracing inside enabling them to survive storm force winds and several inches of snow. The uprights are permanently anchored into concrete blocks. The plastic is secured to 5x3 timbers which run along the full length of the sides, and bolted to the outside of the uprights with U bolts, which can be pulled downwards to tension the polythene sheet. Windbreak netting is fitted from these timbers to the ground (to give ventilation), with a wind-up curtain of polythene on the inside (to control the ventilation). On simpler installations the polythene can simply be dug into the earth, or secured to telegraph poles lying on the ground. For Brent's solar shower all that would be required is a couple of simple hoops made from coat hanger wire, run inside some plastic tube (fuel hose/ insulation stripped from cable) as metal under polythene can become too hot to touch. Polytunnels have thermal insulating tape fitted to the hoops for this very reason. Colin| 7997|7967|2005-05-22 17:28:48|jim dorey|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|On Sun, 22 May 2005 15:40:05 -0300, Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > As for the question about heating the plate from flame spraying. There > is very little heat. I can lay my hand on the area that I have flame > sprayed after waiting a minute or so. The metal plate sucks up the > heat. > Gerald i was checking some flame spray sites, there was mention of flame spraying styrofoam with no damage, i can imagine that'd take a rather delicate touch. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 7998|1234|2005-05-23 01:32:45|gjamesarnold|Plans|Hello, I am a aluminium boat builder planning to build a 35foot in origami style but can´t seem to find plans or designers websites.Any help would be apreciated. Thank you Gregory| 7999|1234|2005-05-23 02:06:33|Henri Naths|Re: Plans|Hi Gregory, Greg, at info@... can probably help you out. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "gjamesarnold" To: Sent: 22 May, 2005 11:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Plans Hello, I am a aluminium boat builder planning to build a 35foot in origami style but can´t seem to find plans or designers websites.Any help would be apreciated. Thank you Gregory To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 8000|7992|2005-05-23 12:12:25|khooper_fboats|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|> Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by > "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure > side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end > plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel > bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the > high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. Thx for the information, that was really helpful. If there were bulbs on the bottom of twin keels (specifically if there were bulbs made from old steel oxygen bottles filled with lead and welded to the bottom of the keel) would this help significantly to keep the pressure on the high side of the keel in the manner you described? I was going to put bulbs on anyway to pull the weight lower and try to make more room for tankage without (hopefully) increasing the snag factor too much. --Hoop|