8001|7787|2005-05-24 00:51:06|seeratlas|Re: Shady Business :-)|Wasn't contradicting your suggestion Brent, was merely amplyfying your suggestion for 'lots of ventilation' with a further reason for doing it. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Some moulds are pretty toxic. Sometimes the only choice is between > the lesser of evils. A good airing is easy to do ,and a trip to the > laundromat is easier to deal with than permanent mould > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > I would note the stuff of which std mothballs are made is a pretty > > heavy duty carcenogen. Lots of ventilation called for here, > especially > > if you have kids about and around. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > I heard an article on CBC where someone had developed a way to > extend > > > the mould fighting characteristics of calcium carbonate > indefinitly. > > > It normally works for a short time only. This stuff, if added to > > > paint ,used on an air duct ,killed all of the bacteria in the > first > > > few feet. > > > For storing charts, books ,winter clothes, etc at sea in the > > > tropics, put them in plastic garbage bags with mothballs. They > may be > > > a bit smelly when you take them out, but an hour or two in the > wind > > > takes care of that.It all evaporates quickly. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > wrote: > > > > Ted, > > > > Canestan and its replacement Hexal Clotreme --- now that is > > > essential when > > > > the crotch rot / jock itch sets in!! > > > > We have been here 10 years and the first year when I got a > patch, I > > > actually > > > > went to the doc. thinking "What the hell is this?" > > > > His diagnosis and advice was short and to the point " To avoid > > > crotch rot, > > > > wear loose fitting pants or no underclothes at all " > > > > Mould in boats is not yet a problem for me, and it is strange > how > > > some house > > > > surfaces grow it quickly and others don't seem to have any at > all. > > > Mould > > > > seems to ignore the "anti mould" words on some interior paint > cans > > > as well. > > > > Regards, > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of edward_stoneuk > > > > Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 04:22 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shady Business :-) | 8002|7992|2005-05-24 01:00:49|seeratlas|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|On a bilge keel boat, assuming the angles are 'right' you dont have quite the same fluid dynamic over the tips as you do in a single conventional keel. The reason is that the water is being forced towards the hull on a properly designed bilgekeeler, as opposed to away from it on a normal single keel. Close your eyes and visualize the profile being presented to the water when heeled and you'll see whay this is so. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > In earlier posts the purpose of endplates to the tips of keels were > questioned and no clear explanation was given as such. I'll try to > explain this in a simple way. > > Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by > "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure > side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end > plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel > bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the > high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. > > End plates (wings - lenght of keel tip) at the keel bottom are there > to contain the flow on the high pressure side of the keel. > This will/should bring about that no flow moves up or down the lenght > of the keel and thereby in effect creates an infinite aspect ratio, > with no lifting losses at the root (hull side) and the keel > tip/bottom. > > This arrangement should make a boat goes to windward like a bat out of > hell but would have no advantage running downwind however. In fact, > the boat might be a touch slower in light winds due to the increased > parasitic drag (form & friction) > > Should be interesting on a twin keel arrangement..... > > Fair winds > > Wynand | 8003|8003|2005-05-24 06:27:22|edward_stoneuk|Washing and drying clothes|Are there any thoughts on washing and drying clothes on board a 36' boat in higher latitudes where the sun doesn't shine so much. We have been thinking of a crank operated mangle or wringer, but do not know where to source them. An airing cupboard over the engine exhaust or cooling pipes is another thought. Regards, Ted| 8004|8003|2005-05-24 11:40:48|Alex Christie|Re: Washing and drying clothes|There is a very inexpensive hand-powered washing machine out of strong plastic which apparently washes clothes very quickly and with very little water. It is hand-cranked. Can't recall the name but it is around -- will post when I find it, unless someone else does first. I guess if your woodstove is stoked up you could always hang clothes in your cabin, or on a rack. Washing clothes is the age-old problem for sea based living -- best just dispense with them altogether and grow a thick coat of hair all over! Alex On 24-May-05, at 3:26 AM, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Are there any thoughts on washing and drying clothes on board a 36' > boat in higher latitudes where the sun doesn't shine so much.  We have > been thinking of a crank operated mangle or wringer, but do not know > where to source them. An airing cupboard over the engine exhaust or > cooling pipes is another thought. > Regards, > Ted > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8005|8003|2005-05-24 12:54:06|Bruce Hallman|Re: Washing and drying clothes|> There is a very inexpensive hand-powered washing machine out of strong plastic A bucket, Janice, over at the LowCostVoyaging group last year, posted some 'first hand' advice about 'on the boat' clothes washing, quoted below: ==============quoting... "Doing laundry is not horrible, BUT, you must keep up with it or spend a lot of time hauling stuff to crummy Laundromats. Trust me when I suggest that shore side places run the gamut from expensive to filthy, with most leaning toward a rather vile combination of the two. And hauling it to the laundry when at anchor is a pain in the posterior. So, we need to wash the clothes. The thing is, as you may well recall when you go to the beach your suit takes forever to dry. That's the salt in the fabric. Washing clothes in salt water is great. The only trouble is rinsing out the salt takes FOREVER and wastes way more fresh water than you'd ever imagine. Salt on clothing, especially intimate apparel, is unpleasant. The next alternative is to use fresh water -- simple really. Use a touch of laundry detergent, swish, scrub and rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse. Have I mentioned how much water is used rinsing out the soap? And wearing clothing with soap on it causes rashes. Many people find the use of a plunger effective as an agitator. Also, there are those small pressure washer's we've all see in the neighborhood of $50 from Lehman's and the like. The easiest way to do the wash is to hire an island woman to do it for you. Alas, sometimes clothes fade, disappear, or it costs too much. So, we want to be self-sufficient. Right?! And Mike wants to sail with his lovely lady, therefore: First, you'll want to use a bucket or even the galley sink -- *I* prefer the sink so I don't have to bend, but a bucket will work in a pinch. Please fill 2/3rds full of fresh water. Add ammonia (1/2 cup for bucket; 1/4 cup for sink) -- yes the smelly stuff that you cannot mix with Clorox. Now, swish. You'll want to start with your cleanest clothes and work your way through to the grubbiest. Okay, here's the place where you have to try it to believe it: WRING OUT THE CLOTHES, towels, blue-jeans. That's it. DO NOT rinse. Sure, you're probably thinking there's a trick to this, that the clothes reek, et al. So, try it for yourself. This week, please wash and wring out your clothes -- everything you wear my dears, and your towels too. Hang to dry. Gents who wear suits can skip doing the dress clothes, but all those casual boat clothes, and your towels, skivvies, etc. -- that's your job. One week only -- you can do this. Ah, and if anyone knows if there is a way to order ammonia in powdered form, I'd like to learn about that. I know pool chemicals are in essence bleach, albeit very potent. Therefore it stands to reason that there might be a way to find ammonia without the water filler... J"| 8006|7992|2005-05-24 13:37:15|nortje_wynand|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Hello seeratlas I do not agree with you seer. The same dynamics are applicable to both single or twin keels. I would agree that a twin keeler is more effective when heeled as a single keeler. The reason is that, say, on a 20 degree heel the single keeler is less effectice as the foil is heeled and less surface area exposed perpendiculary as opposed to a twin keel whereas the leeward keel is at its maximum lift producing stance - upright. But, for a keel to produce lift, it needed leeway to produce the lift that resists leeway - a paradox if I may say so. Without leeway there is no off-centre flow of water, and it is this off-centre flow that produces the pressure difference in the leeward and windward surfaces of the keel. IOW, you still have a low and high pressure side on the keel - regardless of type - and this will always results in lifting losses due to vortices without proper endplates at keel tip. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > On a bilge keel boat, assuming the angles are 'right' you dont have > quite the same fluid dynamic over the tips as you do in a single > conventional keel. The reason is that the water is being forced > towards the hull on a properly designed bilgekeeler, as opposed to > away from it on a normal single keel. Close your eyes and visualize > the profile being presented to the water when heeled and you'll see > whay this is so. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > wrote: > > In earlier posts the purpose of endplates to the tips of keels were > > questioned and no clear explanation was given as such. I'll try to > > explain this in a simple way. > > > > Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by > > "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure > > side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end > > plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel > > bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the > > high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. > > > > End plates (wings - lenght of keel tip) at the keel bottom are there > > to contain the flow on the high pressure side of the keel. > > This will/should bring about that no flow moves up or down the lenght > > of the keel and thereby in effect creates an infinite aspect ratio, > > with no lifting losses at the root (hull side) and the keel > > tip/bottom. > > > > This arrangement should make a boat goes to windward like a bat out of > > hell but would have no advantage running downwind however. In fact, > > the boat might be a touch slower in light winds due to the increased > > parasitic drag (form & friction) > > > > Should be interesting on a twin keel arrangement..... > > > > Fair winds > > > > Wynand | 8007|8007|2005-05-24 14:29:15|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Sandblasting alternatives, Rust converters & Mold|Hi, Have been super busy of late but saving msg's to read over when I can. Coupla things.. Power washers for sand blasting; there are available venturi attachments that are used with a standard power washer (but I think you need at least 2k psi & engine driven machine). they have a ceramic head & cost about $100. A friend has one he used on his 89' steelie recently but haven't heard back as to results Rust converters: In Hong Kong I used "Neutra Rust 661" a British product & it was exellent. Tried all sorst on return to Canada & all were a waste of time.... until I tried "Blue Steel" which is exellent. Not cheap at about $30/quart but being milky it runs off & you get good coverage. goes over other coatings very very well. exellent product. I figure it would be fine on the bottom but have to build one of Brent's before I can swear to that. Worth a try I figure Mold: Like a fire, needs 3 components (other than the spore which can be compared to the flame itself). The 3 components: humidity, adequate temperature (accelerates in higher heat) and stagnant air. Thus ventilation is key for keeping it out (a mate of mine had 500 1.5" holes through all wooden structures/cabinetry etc in his 40' steel boat & never a problem. But if you ever have a problem, plain household vinegar kills the spore. dilute to 50% with water & spray on. It also an exellent disinfectant. Dont' know who mentioned potential health probs earlier but mold can cause severe respratory infections so if you have it in your boat deal with it now & dont' sleep near it! Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 8008|8003|2005-05-24 15:31:10|brentswain38|Re: Washing and drying clothes|I knew a guy who used to put his clothes in a bucket of water and soap and leave it by the companionway. He said everyone who came aboard gave it a few strokes as he passed buy and eventually they were cleaned. I use swimming pool bleach crystals (100% ) as oppose to supermarket liquid bleach( 6%) and add water. It enables you to take a year or two's supply in a small container. I used sea water for the last two runs around the Pacific,with dishwashing liquid( most work well in seawater) , wrung them out well and hung them in the wind to shake any salt out. It worked well for light tropical clothes and I couldn't tell the difference when I washed them in fresh water.I wouldn't try that with anything heavy like sleeping bags as that would make them a bit sticky and they would attract moisture and get damp again easily. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > There is a very inexpensive hand-powered washing machine out of strong plastic > > A bucket, > > Janice, over at the LowCostVoyaging group last year, posted some 'first hand' > advice about 'on the boat' clothes washing, quoted below: > > ==============quoting... > "Doing laundry is not horrible, BUT, you must keep up with it or spend a > lot of time hauling stuff to crummy Laundromats. Trust me when I suggest > that shore side places run the gamut from expensive to filthy, with most > leaning toward a rather vile combination of the two. And hauling it to > the laundry when at anchor is a pain in the posterior. > > So, we need to wash the clothes. The thing is, as you may well recall > when you go to the beach your suit takes forever to dry. That's the salt > in the fabric. Washing clothes in salt water is great. The only trouble > is rinsing out the salt takes FOREVER and wastes way more fresh water > than you'd ever imagine. Salt on clothing, especially intimate apparel, > is unpleasant. > > The next alternative is to use fresh water -- simple really. Use a touch > of laundry detergent, swish, scrub and rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse. Have > I mentioned how much water is used rinsing out the soap? And wearing > clothing with soap on it causes rashes. > > Many people find the use of a plunger effective as an agitator. Also, > there are those small pressure washer's we've all see in the > neighborhood of $50 from Lehman's and the like. > > The easiest way to do the wash is to hire an island woman to do it for > you. Alas, sometimes clothes fade, disappear, or it costs too much. So, > we want to be self-sufficient. Right?! And Mike wants to sail with his > lovely lady, therefore: > > First, you'll want to use a bucket or even the galley sink -- *I* prefer > the sink so I don't have to bend, but a bucket will work in a pinch. > Please fill 2/3rds full of fresh water. Add ammonia (1/2 cup for bucket; > 1/4 cup for sink) -- yes the smelly stuff that you cannot mix with > Clorox. Now, swish. > > You'll want to start with your cleanest clothes and work your way > through to the grubbiest. > > Okay, here's the place where you have to try it to believe it: WRING OUT > THE CLOTHES, towels, blue-jeans. That's it. DO NOT rinse. Sure, you're > probably thinking there's a trick to this, that the clothes reek, et al. > So, try it for yourself. This week, please wash and wring out your > clothes -- everything you wear my dears, and your towels too. Hang to > dry. > > Gents who wear suits can skip doing the dress clothes, but all those > casual boat clothes, and your towels, skivvies, etc. -- that's your job. > One week only -- you can do this. > > Ah, and if anyone knows if there is a way to order ammonia in powdered > form, I'd like to learn about that. I know pool chemicals are in essence > bleach, albeit very potent. Therefore it stands to reason that there > might be a way to find ammonia without the water filler... > > J" | 8009|7967|2005-05-24 15:35:31|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|I found that there is very little heat as long as the tip is working well and the droplets of metal are tiny. As the tip begins to plug and the droplets get bigger, there is far mopre heat buildup and the adhesion of the sprayed metal to the steel declines drastically. As soon as you notice any increase in the size of the metal particals , or the heat, take the gun apart and clean it . The more often you do this the better the job. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sun, 22 May 2005 15:40:05 -0300, Gerald Niffenegger > wrote: > > > As for the question about heating the plate from flame spraying. There > > is very little heat. I can lay my hand on the area that I have flame > > sprayed after waiting a minute or so. The metal plate sucks up the > > heat. > > Gerald > > i was checking some flame spray sites, there was mention of flame spraying > styrofoam with no damage, i can imagine that'd take a rather delicate > touch. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8010|7992|2005-05-24 15:38:25|brentswain38|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Make sure that any endplates that you may use don't foul the anchor rode easily. This can best be done by experimenting with a scale model Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > On a bilge keel boat, assuming the angles are 'right' you dont have > quite the same fluid dynamic over the tips as you do in a single > conventional keel. The reason is that the water is being forced > towards the hull on a properly designed bilgekeeler, as opposed to > away from it on a normal single keel. Close your eyes and visualize > the profile being presented to the water when heeled and you'll see > whay this is so. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > wrote: > > In earlier posts the purpose of endplates to the tips of keels were > > questioned and no clear explanation was given as such. I'll try to > > explain this in a simple way. > > > > Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by > > "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure > > side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end > > plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel > > bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the > > high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. > > > > End plates (wings - lenght of keel tip) at the keel bottom are there > > to contain the flow on the high pressure side of the keel. > > This will/should bring about that no flow moves up or down the lenght > > of the keel and thereby in effect creates an infinite aspect ratio, > > with no lifting losses at the root (hull side) and the keel > > tip/bottom. > > > > This arrangement should make a boat goes to windward like a bat out of > > hell but would have no advantage running downwind however. In fact, > > the boat might be a touch slower in light winds due to the increased > > parasitic drag (form & friction) > > > > Should be interesting on a twin keel arrangement..... > > > > Fair winds > > > > Wynand | 8011|7967|2005-05-24 15:48:27|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|They used wet blasting using a pressure washer and a sandblasting attachement. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent - yes I know about wet blasting, and - if the following paint > would support a minimum of "fresh" rust - that would alt least take > care of the dust problem. But from your mail it sounded as if your > friends had used a WASHER, meaning no sand, just water - did they? > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > I went into a rental place and asked if they have a wet blaster . > It > > was an extremely simple arrangement , which used a jet of water > from a > > pressure washer 3GPM minimum with a venturi effect to pull sand > thru a > > plastic hose into the water stream. I was thinking of renting it > for a > > day( $15 ), to make a copy. The brass fitting looked like it > > wouldn't cost all that much . Perhaps people who sell pressure > washes > > will have one for sale . > > Brent > > > > > > 't \--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > Brent - just a washer??? > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > Friends wet blasted with a pressure washer in California in > the > > > > 80's . The weather was hot and dry and they ran along behind > the > > > > blaster with rags wiping the exces water off. It turned red > > > > immediately, but dried quickly. They put severall coats of > epoxy > > tar > > > > on and the hull still looks good. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > this message have been removed] | 8012|8012|2005-05-24 19:24:32|coyfamily|Polit-icks, Film|Hello all, I really enjoy reading the Origami info. there are so many hot shot brilliant people on this site. (I don't understand the Alternator welding, it sounds facinating, but I'd probably blow some one/thing up) I'm still dreaming and learning. I sure have a lot to learn, so not having a big boat is one of my smaller obstacles. I hope the "One World Government" still allows individuals on the Oceans by the time I can get out there. Although its not a boatbuilding topic, I can certainly understand "interest" in world politics, because it affects us all. Maybe there's another forum though, to pursue that discussion. The desire for Freedom fuels my boat dreams, sincerely looking forward to learning more about building Origami style craft. Alex, thanks for the update on your video production, I'm eagerly awaiting opening day! I can't even comprehend how much work that's been, probably as much as building the boat, at least. Well, don't sell it out to Pbs or cable TV and runoff to become a documentary film maker, ok? we needs it first... So... any idea how much.. $$$? Or might yous sell it with a set of plans at some package deal? Just an idea. Best regards, thanks again for sharing your technical expertise on this forum, its great! Nicole [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8013|8003|2005-05-25 04:34:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: Washing and drying clothes|Bruce, Regarding the use of ammonia to clean clothes; here is health and safety advice from the EPA. " Ammonia, a colorless gas or liquid with a sharp irritating odor, can be found in household cleaners, wax removers, glass and window cleaners, and oven cleaners. In strong concentrations, such as may be found in commercial products, ammonia vapors and liquids can be corrosive causing severe burns and irritation to the skin, eyes, and lungs. Household ammonia contains 5-10% ammonia and is considered to be an irritant rather than a corrosive hazard. Vapors, even in low concentrations, can cause severe eye, lung, and skin irritation. Chronic irritation may occur if ammonia is used over long periods of time. Do not mix ammonia with chlorine bleach or bleach products! When ammonia and bleach are mixed, a chloramine gas results which can cause coughing, loss of voice, feeling of burning and suffocation, and even death. Ammonia inhalers are sometimes mistaken by children for candy. These inhalers or smelling salts will cause burns to the lips and mouth if chewed. Use: Wear protective gloves, safety goggles, and a respirator with an ammonia cartridge. Use ammonia only in well-ventilated areas where there is plenty of fresh air. Storage: Store away from children. Disposal: Empty containers can be thrown in the trash. It is best to use up the product as intended, but if you must dispose of an unused portion, flush down the drain with plenty of water. If you are on a septic tank or lagoon, dispose of small quantities over a number of days. Alternatives: Vinegar, like ammonia, will cut through grease and grime but without the irritation produced by ammonia and ammonia vapors. " Like many things in life it needs a bit of care. Regards, Ted| 8014|7967|2005-05-25 13:52:29|jim dorey|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|On Tue, 24 May 2005 16:34:54 -0300, brentswain38 wrote: > I found that there is very little heat as long as the tip is working > well and the droplets of metal are tiny. As the tip begins to plug and > the droplets get bigger, there is far mopre heat buildup and the > adhesion of the sprayed metal to the steel declines drastically. As > soon as you notice any increase in the size of the metal particals , or > the heat, take the gun apart and clean it . The more often you do this > the better the job. > Brent so, it's not delicacy, it's fastidiousness. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8015|7967|2005-05-25 18:58:16|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Sandblasting alternatives again...|> so, it's not delicacy, it's fastidiousness.< I think Brent is saying that it must be fastidious to achieve delicacy. If he is not saying that then I would. Gerald| 8016|7992|2005-05-25 21:57:37|seeratlas|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|I did not mean to say the science was different, but rather that the effect was substantially different. True you have the same vortex effect however the magnitude is substantially reduced for the simple reason that instead of the fluid being forced into then down and away from the hull over the keel tip, you have it hitting the tip of the keel and being forced along the keel to the hull. The result is substantially less flow across the end of the keel thus generating far less significant vortices. As you rightly observe the angle of the bilge keels in relationship to the angle of heel the boat is designed to sail at, is critically determinative as has been noted by Brent and others who have worked with bilge keels. Now, the real world issue is, does the cost in time, effort and materials in designing, fabricating and fitting a 'wing' or endplate to a moderate to heavy monohull "cruising" sailboat in the under 40' range result in a commensurate increase in utility and performance? Whatever the result of that query is, I would submit to you that the case for doing so on a properly designed bilge keeler of similar specifications is substantially worse :) Throw in the other considerations of dealing with various underwater obstructions and potential snags, along with the bottoming concerns and the whole matter seems impractical to me, however :) If someone wants to lean over the side and point to the winglets on his keel, hell, :) have at it lol. After all, its your boat :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > Hello seeratlas > > I do not agree with you seer. > > The same dynamics are applicable to both single or twin keels. I would > agree that a twin keeler is more effective when heeled as a single > keeler. The reason is that, say, on a 20 degree heel the single keeler > is less effectice as the foil is heeled and less surface area exposed > perpendiculary as opposed to a twin keel whereas the leeward keel is > at its maximum lift producing stance - upright. > > But, for a keel to produce lift, it needed leeway to produce the lift > that resists leeway - a paradox if I may say so. > Without leeway there is no off-centre flow of water, and it is this > off-centre flow that produces the pressure difference in the leeward > and windward surfaces of the keel. IOW, you still have a low and high > pressure side on the keel - regardless of type - and this will always > results in lifting losses due to vortices without proper endplates at > keel tip. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > On a bilge keel boat, assuming the angles are 'right' you dont have > > quite the same fluid dynamic over the tips as you do in a single > > conventional keel. The reason is that the water is being forced > > towards the hull on a properly designed bilgekeeler, as opposed to > > away from it on a normal single keel. Close your eyes and visualize > > the profile being presented to the water when heeled and you'll see > > whay this is so. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > > wrote: > > > In earlier posts the purpose of endplates to the tips of keels were > > > questioned and no clear explanation was given as such. I'll try to > > > explain this in a simple way. > > > > > > Most keels loses lift due to the (significant) tip vortices created by > > > "leaks" of air from the high pressure side of keel to the low pressure > > > side - the amount influenced by aspect ratio. The hull acts as an end > > > plate at the keel root to contain the flow at the top but the keel > > > bottom has no "aid" to contain the flow on the keel and to prevent the > > > high pressure to escape to the low pressure side. > > > > > > End plates (wings - lenght of keel tip) at the keel bottom are there > > > to contain the flow on the high pressure side of the keel. > > > This will/should bring about that no flow moves up or down the lenght > > > of the keel and thereby in effect creates an infinite aspect ratio, > > > with no lifting losses at the root (hull side) and the keel > > > tip/bottom. > > > > > > This arrangement should make a boat goes to windward like a bat out of > > > hell but would have no advantage running downwind however. In fact, > > > the boat might be a touch slower in light winds due to the increased > > > parasitic drag (form & friction) > > > > > > Should be interesting on a twin keel arrangement..... > > > > > > Fair winds > > > > > > Wynand | 8017|7992|2005-05-26 09:30:36|edward_stoneuk|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Seer, Your observations would be correct if the vessel was hove to with no forward motion and drifting to leeward when the flow of water against the keel, as seen by the vessel, is substantially perpendicular to its vertical plane. However when the vessel is under way the main flow is parallel to its plane with only a lesser leeway component and the resultant velocity as seen by the boat is coming from only a bit to leeward as Wynand suggests. Because this flow is a bit off centre as it hits the front of the keel the flow on the windward side has to travel further and therefore faster than on the leeward side to meet up again. This increase in velocity causes a decrease in pressure and this pressure differential either side of the keel gives the keel the lift to resist its drift to leeward. It is this same effect that enables the forward movement of airplanes to move them upwards substantially perpendicular to their forward movement. The same effect enables hurricane winds to suck up pitched roofs. The purpose of the keel end plates as in airplane wing tips is to stop leakage of the pressure difference. Whether the light is worth the candle is another matter. Whether the light is worth the candle in building a boat or climbing Mount Everest is up to the individual concerned. To the vast majority of folks it isn't. To us, building a boat is. Have you started your lovely schooner yet Seer? I hope so, life isn't a rehearsal. Regards, Ted| 8018|7992|2005-05-26 18:04:19|NORMAN MOORE|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|I was a long time racing fan before I became interested in boats and sailing. During a chilly morning practise session you can actually see the trailing tip vortices coming off the wings of an F1 car. If the wing didn't have end plates the vortices would be much larger and generate lots of turbulence and drag. Airplanes make up for this by having long wings relative to their width (high aspect ratio). End plates increase the effective aspect ratio of a short wing. So... The cambered keel on the leeward side of a sailboat heeled over will exert greater righting force. Since this site is dedicated to cruising boats rather than racing boats, what's it mean? Probably not much. Just a correction on the infamous "travelling particle reunion" that makes one side go faster to get there at the same time. I know, I heard this same explanation back when I was a kid. Sounded good back when I was 8 but if you think about it, why is there an overpowering need for a "family reunion" of particles? There isn't. Flow separates from the keel (wing) and induces a flow reversal along the trailing edge of the keel that kicks off a vortex. If it does it right (Kutta condition) it starts a circulation that, believe it or not, actually moves the water ahead of the keel to reduce turbulence and drag at the trailing edge. It was an aero engineer at Douglas that took up sailing (Arvel Gentry) that wrote all this up as it applies to sails and sailboats. Interesting reading... --- edward_stoneuk wrote: --------------------------------- Seer, Your observations would be correct if the vessel was hove to with no forward motion and drifting to leeward when the flow of water against the keel, as seen by the vessel, is substantially perpendicular to its vertical plane. However when the vessel is under way the main flow is parallel to its plane with only a lesser leeway component and the resultant velocity as seen by the boat is coming from only a bit to leeward as Wynand suggests. Because this flow is a bit off centre as it hits the front of the keel the flow on the windward side has to travel further and therefore faster than on the leeward side to meet up again. This increase in velocity causes a decrease in pressure and this pressure differential either side of the keel gives the keel the lift to resist its drift to leeward. It is this same effect that enables the forward movement of airplanes to move them upwards substantially perpendicular to their forward movement. The same effect enables hurricane winds to suck up pitched roofs. The purpose of the keel end plates as in airplane wing tips is to stop leakage of the pressure difference. Whether the light is worth the candle is another matter. Whether the light is worth the candle in building a boat or climbing Mount Everest is up to the individual concerned. To the vast majority of folks it isn't. To us, building a boat is. Have you started your lovely schooner yet Seer? I hope so, life isn't a rehearsal. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Norm Moore 559-645-5314| 8019|7992|2005-05-26 19:24:58|Alex Christie|Bolger rudders and endplates|Just an interesting sidebar to all this, Phil Bolger has been able to design very efficient shallow-draught rudders for some of his small sailing dinghies and a catboat by putting an end plate on them, in some cases avoiding the need to have a rudder that swings down lower than the shallow keels he often uses. The end-plate is quite large compared to the size of the rudder blade. For myself, I am not sure if the effort into constructing an endplate is needed in terms of long distance voyaging, though I won't deny the hydro-dynamic advancements they offer. The average day made good isn't going to change much, though if there were upwind performance benefits it would of course be of some benefit. I think Ted's wing keels are interesting as they have nice rounded edges, sloped sides, and would do much to lower the ballast in those twin keels which are by nature shorter than a single. Also the shape of Ted's keels don't look prone to getting line, grass or other such entanglements stuck in them, nor do I see them getting stuck in the mud. In fact, with their wider footprint on the bottom they would not press as deeply into the mud and sand For myself, the making of the film precluded having as much fun as I'd have liked experimenting with things like keels, but I wouldn't deny someone else the enjoyment of trying something different. After all, these are not factory boats, and nothing is ever learned without taking the odd risk. I like the notion of what Bolger terms, "a technical open mind", which I think is about finding the balance between staying within reasonable engineering boundaries "thinking outside the box" in order to come up with a solution to a design problem. His highly unconventional boats bear this out. I did tell him and his wife Susanne Altenburger about the origami boatbuilding system, but they never looked into it as far as I know, and I never heard back from them. To each his own, right? Alex| 8020|7992|2005-05-27 00:41:15|jericoera|Re: Bolger rudders and endplates|I have seen endplates used on twin rudders on voyaging catamarans and they seem to make the rudder very responsive. On twin keels, while they may offer some performance advantages, I would think if you did sink into some mud, they would create enormous suction making it more difficult to pull the boat out of the mud. I could certainly be wrong about that, but if you look at birds that walk on the bottom like cranes, they all have slim feet. swimming birds whose feet never touch the bottom are webbed. The endplate would seem to be like a webbed ducks foot--where as Brent's original design would be more stork like. Sounds funny to look at it that way but a practical experiment with a bilge keel model in a bucket of mud may quickly prove which keel is more readily freed from the bottom. In sand or rocky bottom however, I am sure that the end plate would work somewhat like a snowshoe, but it would have to be mighty big to make much difference in how far the boat sinks given the weight of these boats. It would be nice to know for sure. Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Just an interesting sidebar to all this, Phil Bolger has been able to > design very efficient shallow-draught rudders for some of his small > sailing dinghies and a catboat by putting an end plate on them, in some > cases avoiding the need to have a rudder that swings down lower than > the shallow keels he often uses. The end-plate is quite large compared > to the size of the rudder blade. > > For myself, I am not sure if the effort into constructing an endplate > is needed in terms of long distance voyaging, though I won't deny the > hydro-dynamic advancements they offer. The average day made good isn't > going to change much, though if there were upwind performance benefits > it would of course be of some benefit. I think Ted's wing keels are > interesting as they have nice rounded edges, sloped sides, and would do > much to lower the ballast in those twin keels which are by nature > shorter than a single. Also the shape of Ted's keels don't look prone > to getting line, grass or other such entanglements stuck in them, nor > do I see them getting stuck in the mud. In fact, with their wider > footprint on the bottom they would not press as deeply into the mud and > sand > For myself, the making of the film precluded having as much fun as I'd > have liked experimenting with things like keels, but I wouldn't deny > someone else the enjoyment of trying something different. After all, > these are not factory boats, and nothing is ever learned without taking > the odd risk. I like the notion of what Bolger terms, "a technical > open mind", which I think is about finding the balance between staying > within reasonable engineering boundaries "thinking outside the box" in > order to come up with a solution to a design problem. His highly > unconventional boats bear this out. I did tell him and his wife > Susanne Altenburger about the origami boatbuilding system, but they > never looked into it as far as I know, and I never heard back from > them. To each his own, right? > > Alex | 8021|7992|2005-05-27 03:47:17|sae140|Re: Bolger rudders and endplates|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > I have seen endplates used on twin rudders on voyaging catamarans > and they seem to make the rudder very responsive. On twin keels, > while they may offer some performance advantages, I would think if > you did sink into some mud, they would create enormous suction > making it more difficult to pull the boat out of the mud. I could > certainly be wrong about that, Bilge keelers on soft drying mud berths around here are often immersed in putty to well above the hull-keel joint. Likewise, swing keelers have the whole of their hull underbelly immersed in mud - never heard of a problem with suction yet ... Colin| 8022|7992|2005-05-27 04:14:21|edward_stoneuk|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Norm, Thanks for the information. It wouldn't be the first time I've talked nonsense. I Googled Arvel Gentry and came up with www.arvelgentry.com were one can read some of his papers. I haven't had time to read them yet. Thinking about what I said and considering a sail of virtually no thickness it is obvious that there is something else happening other than the particles rushing to meet up again. Regards, Ted| 8023|7992|2005-05-27 05:26:50|edward_stoneuk|Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|From memory, some time ago Brent wrote about using old gas bottles welded to the bottom of the bilge keels and filled with lead to lower the centre of gravity. This is when I started thinking about modifying the keel tips as I am aware of the low ballast ratio and centre of gravity of these boats. My design thoughts were that the bottles would need faring in at the front to avoid snagging things and faring in at the back to reduce drag. I was thinking of the bulbs on the keels of commercially built boats. I didn't use gas bottles because of my concerns as to the welding and fabrication of the faring of them. I thought about using a 10" pipe with a stock rounded end cap forward and the aft ends tapered. I felt that this tapering and faring to the keel would be difficult for me to fabricate. I thought about flaring the bottom on both sides so that it would alow more lead but hadn't seen anybody else doing it, so after seeing pictures of wing tips on commercially built twin keelers I put all these ideas together to make them as you see in the photo. As I had added to the wetted area I cut the round out of the back to make up for it. I cannot see why they are more prone to snagging than the original keels. I do not think that they will improve windward performance noticably. That wasn't why I built them like that. I do not think that they will stick in the mud much more than the originals given that the originals are canted out. The difference between loosing wellies or stilletos in the mud is minimal. Not that I have ever worn stilletos you understand. Well not in mud anyway. Regards, Ted| 8024|8024|2005-05-27 14:35:31|Gary|Mast Question|The mast I scrounged (47' aluminum) for my 36' pilot house has 2 tracks. One for mainsail and one for stormsail. Problem is there is a 4" long widening (bracket shaped) in both tracks too high up in the mast so the plastic mast inserts pop out too high up. After this widening the tracks revert to normal small size to the bottom of the mast as usual. There is a small screw hole at the base of the brackets which prevents the sail inserts from popping out but it postions the top part of the sail, again too high up. I am left wondering if there is a part missing for this mast that somehow connects to the mast at the bracket preventing this problem. Anyone have or know about a similar mast as this? Thanks in advance... Gary| 8025|7992|2005-05-27 14:42:25|brentswain38|Re: Bolger rudders and endplates|They may be a good thing to experiment with on any rudder to increase effectiveness of the ruddder in a following sea, and give more control. People who have used twin rudders say that they are incredibly effective in such conditions. Perhaps endplates may achieve the same results in a far less complex way , and be retrofitable on existing boats. When it takes 1500 lbs to sink a 36 footer an inch in the water, there is no way suction on an endplate will have any effect on a ske or rudder. Having the skeg and rudder sink in a soft spot , and thus alter the fore and aft trim of a boat while you are living aboard, is a real pain in the ass, something that endplates can prevent to some extent. Endplates can also reduce tip vortex and thus reduce drag considerably. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > I have seen endplates used on twin rudders on voyaging catamarans > > and they seem to make the rudder very responsive. On twin keels, > > while they may offer some performance advantages, I would think if > > you did sink into some mud, they would create enormous suction > > making it more difficult to pull the boat out of the mud. I could > > certainly be wrong about that, > > > > Bilge keelers on soft drying mud berths around here are > often immersed in putty to well above the hull-keel joint. > Likewise, swing keelers have the whole of their hull > underbelly immersed in mud - never heard of a problem with > suction yet ... > > Colin | 8026|7992|2005-05-27 14:45:26|brentswain38|Re: Bolger rudders and endplates|I'd go heavy on the endplates, at least 3/8th plate as they are in a vulnerable position and can get banged around a bit. They could also be made removable so they can be straightened ashore. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > They may be a good thing to experiment with on any rudder to > increase effectiveness of the ruddder in a following sea, and give > more control. People who have used twin rudders say that they are > incredibly effective in such conditions. Perhaps endplates may > achieve the same results in a far less complex way , and be > retrofitable on existing boats. > When it takes 1500 lbs to sink a 36 footer an inch in the water, > there is no way suction on an endplate will have any effect on a ske > or rudder. Having the skeg and rudder sink in a soft spot , and thus > alter the fore and aft trim of a boat while you are living aboard, is > a real pain in the ass, something that endplates can prevent to some > extent. > Endplates can also reduce tip vortex and thus reduce drag > considerably. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > wrote: > > > I have seen endplates used on twin rudders on voyaging catamarans > > > and they seem to make the rudder very responsive. On twin keels, > > > while they may offer some performance advantages, I would think > if > > > you did sink into some mud, they would create enormous suction > > > making it more difficult to pull the boat out of the mud. I could > > > certainly be wrong about that, > > > > > > > > Bilge keelers on soft drying mud berths around here are > > often immersed in putty to well above the hull-keel joint. > > Likewise, swing keelers have the whole of their hull > > underbelly immersed in mud - never heard of a problem with > > suction yet ... > > > > Colin | 8027|7992|2005-05-27 16:07:23|nortje_wynand|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Thanks for all the input thus far on end plates. best regards Wynand| 8028|8028|2005-05-27 18:12:28|Russyl|39 foot Hutton cutter for sale|Ok folks, due to some unforseen issues I am being forced to sell my project and head to florida. I know this is not a for sale type forum but I figure it cant hurt to get some exposure. Stats are as follows 1982 steel hull 35' Lod 39' Loa 11' beam and 5' draft Amenities include a keel stepped aluminum mast with roller furling boom. 6 bags of old sails. Good paint inside the hill. I have done most of the firring strips. I put a Swain windlass that I built myself on deck. It has a 28 hp diesel aboard that ran when the boat was pulled from the water.. 3/4 keel with transom mounted rudder and a Trim tab for self steering. I am selling the whole deal at $14,000 It is on the hard near Seattle for 40 dollars a month and can be kept there indefinitely Contact info is Russyl at (206)763-3358 Btw the boat was surveyed recently and came through clear as a bell. There is nothing more than some surface rust on deck where some paint was scraped. No metal loss| 8029|8003|2005-05-27 20:17:50|Carl Volkwein|Re: Washing and drying clothes|I've made a good washing machine out of a big plastic tub,'the ones with roap handles), and a "milk crate" also plastic. You put clothes into the tub, fill it up with water and soap, then adjatate by swishing back and forth, and at the same time up and down. Try it, it's good exersize as well, but I did rinse them. Carl V. brentswain38 wrote: I knew a guy who used to put his clothes in a bucket of water and soap and leave it by the companionway. He said everyone who came aboard gave it a few strokes as he passed buy and eventually they were cleaned. I use swimming pool bleach crystals (100% ) as oppose to supermarket liquid bleach( 6%) and add water. It enables you to take a year or two's supply in a small container. I used sea water for the last two runs around the Pacific,with dishwashing liquid( most work well in seawater) , wrung them out well and hung them in the wind to shake any salt out. It worked well for light tropical clothes and I couldn't tell the difference when I washed them in fresh water.I wouldn't try that with anything heavy like sleeping bags as that would make them a bit sticky and they would attract moisture and get damp again easily. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > There is a very inexpensive hand-powered washing machine out of strong plastic > > A bucket, > > Janice, over at the LowCostVoyaging group last year, posted some 'first hand' > advice about 'on the boat' clothes washing, quoted below: > > ==============quoting... > "Doing laundry is not horrible, BUT, you must keep up with it or spend a > lot of time hauling stuff to crummy Laundromats. Trust me when I suggest > that shore side places run the gamut from expensive to filthy, with most > leaning toward a rather vile combination of the two. And hauling it to > the laundry when at anchor is a pain in the posterior. > > So, we need to wash the clothes. The thing is, as you may well recall > when you go to the beach your suit takes forever to dry. That's the salt > in the fabric. Washing clothes in salt water is great. The only trouble > is rinsing out the salt takes FOREVER and wastes way more fresh water > than you'd ever imagine. Salt on clothing, especially intimate apparel, > is unpleasant. > > The next alternative is to use fresh water -- simple really. Use a touch > of laundry detergent, swish, scrub and rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse. Have > I mentioned how much water is used rinsing out the soap? And wearing > clothing with soap on it causes rashes. > > Many people find the use of a plunger effective as an agitator. Also, > there are those small pressure washer's we've all see in the > neighborhood of $50 from Lehman's and the like. > > The easiest way to do the wash is to hire an island woman to do it for > you. Alas, sometimes clothes fade, disappear, or it costs too much. So, > we want to be self-sufficient. Right?! And Mike wants to sail with his > lovely lady, therefore: > > First, you'll want to use a bucket or even the galley sink -- *I* prefer > the sink so I don't have to bend, but a bucket will work in a pinch. > Please fill 2/3rds full of fresh water. Add ammonia (1/2 cup for bucket; > 1/4 cup for sink) -- yes the smelly stuff that you cannot mix with > Clorox. Now, swish. > > You'll want to start with your cleanest clothes and work your way > through to the grubbiest. > > Okay, here's the place where you have to try it to believe it: WRING OUT > THE CLOTHES, towels, blue-jeans. That's it. DO NOT rinse. Sure, you're > probably thinking there's a trick to this, that the clothes reek, et al. > So, try it for yourself. This week, please wash and wring out your > clothes -- everything you wear my dears, and your towels too. Hang to > dry. > > Gents who wear suits can skip doing the dress clothes, but all those > casual boat clothes, and your towels, skivvies, etc. -- that's your job. > One week only -- you can do this. > > Ah, and if anyone knows if there is a way to order ammonia in powdered > form, I'd like to learn about that. I know pool chemicals are in essence > bleach, albeit very potent. Therefore it stands to reason that there > might be a way to find ammonia without the water filler... > > J" To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8030|8003|2005-05-27 20:32:49|Carl Volkwein|Re: Washing and drying clothes|Alex Christie wrote: There is a very inexpensive hand-powered washing machine out of strong plastic which apparently washes clothes very quickly and with very little water. It is hand-cranked. Can't recall the name but it is around -- will post when I find it, unless someone else does first. I guess if your woodstove is stoked up you could always hang clothes in your cabin, or on a rack. Washing clothes is the age-old problem for sea based living -- best just dispense with them altogether and grow a thick coat of hair all over! Alex On 24-May-05, at 3:26 AM, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Are there any thoughts on washing and drying clothes on board a 36' > boat in higher latitudes where the sun doesn't shine so much. We have > been thinking of a crank operated mangle or wringer, but do not know > where to source them. An airing cupboard over the engine exhaust or > cooling pipes is another thought. > Regards, > Ted > >Ted, Have you tried Lehmans? they're on line. Carl V. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8031|8031|2005-05-27 20:54:38|jericoera|bilge keel profile?|All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge keels themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, what the heck, why not try them out Carl McIntosh| 8032|8031|2005-05-27 22:39:12|Henri Naths|Re: bilge keel profile?|Hi Carl, Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? thanks, Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "jericoera" To: Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge keels > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, what > the heck, why not try them out > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8033|8033|2005-05-27 23:53:10|Alex Christie|Origamiboats film update|Well folks, I am still in post-production on the film, but nearing the end at last, and thank god because I want to get back to building the boat and I want to go sailing. At this point, even without engine, I am willing to strap an outboard onto a temporary bracket (ss lugs welded into transom allowing it to be removed when not needed) and go offshore right away, sleeping on a foamie in a roughed in plywood berth. Carpe Diem! The 7 Seas beckon! Back to reality, the film is broken into two parts to fit on two DVD's. Part 2, 1 hour 35 minutes long, is now 99% complete, with one final shot awaiting Brent sailing past our place in his 31 footer tomorrow or the next day if there's a northwesterly blowing him my way. Even the film is guided by the wind, see? Part 1 is getting its final narrations, and should be about 1 hour 40 minutes long. Honestly, this film might put your family, your dog, and the neighbours to sleep, except for the beginning, which shows a finished boat, and the end, which which has a boat doing a sailpast. Do not get this film for a party unless it is for boat nerds and nerdettes only! At some point, I will do a promotional film designed to sell your spouse on the idea of why these boat are so great, with very flashy tropical and coastal BC scenes of origamiboats on adventures, but this one ain't it. I'm sorry but I do not have a price yet -- this is the most difficult part for me because I have poured my savings into producing it, and don't expect to recoup my costs for years to come. But I will come up with a price soon that will be a good compromise for all concerned. Stay tuned and I will let you know when I am within a week of launching the film. I appreciate everyone's patience after I have made so many previous announcements about the impending arrival of the film! Alex| 8035|8024|2005-05-28 06:29:58|sae140|Re: Mast Question|Hi Gary I'm having difficulty in picturing this 'bracket-shaped' mast slot - but it occurs to me that if the wider slot is located around 6-7 ft from the mast end, could it be that the mast was originally made for keel-stepping, so that the wider slot(s) would then be located a couple of feet above deck level ? If this is the case, then shortening the mast (helluva shame) for deck-stepping would solve the problem. If my analysis is way-off beam - any chance of posting a pic of the slot ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > The mast I scrounged (47' aluminum) for my 36' pilot house has 2 > tracks. One for mainsail and one for stormsail. Problem is there is > a 4" long widening (bracket shaped) in both tracks too high up in the > mast so the plastic mast inserts pop out too high up. After this > widening the tracks revert to normal small size to the bottom of the > mast as usual. There is a small screw hole at the base of the brackets > which prevents the sail inserts from popping out but it postions the > top part of the sail, again too high up. I am left wondering if there > is a part missing for this mast that somehow connects to the mast at > the bracket preventing this problem. Anyone have or know about a > similar mast as this? > > Thanks in advance... Gary | 8036|8031|2005-05-28 07:01:30|nortje_wynand|Re: bilge keel profile?|Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers the 00 series. Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) and the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, something you cannot do on a single finner! Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part Regards Wynand --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Hi Carl, > Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? > thanks, > Henri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jericoera" > To: > Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > > > > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge keels > > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, what > > the heck, why not try them out > > > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8037|8037|2005-05-28 13:27:58|Tim|Store Wars.........|If you watched the Last Star Wars Movie, you can watch this..... http://www.storewars.org/flash/index.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8038|8031|2005-05-28 14:22:45|yvesmariedetanton|Re: bilge keel profile?|Twin keels work best with toes-in. I have had good success with draft as low as 48" on a 38' boat. The adopted angle in this case, 1.75 deg.out. For pictures, go to http://www.tantonyachts.com Gallery page 4. Reference #882. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. > The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls > than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front > section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers the > 00 series. > > Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) and > the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. > > Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, > something you cannot do on a single finner! > > Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part > > Regards > Wynand > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? > > thanks, > > Henri > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "jericoera" > > To: > > Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > > > > > > > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge keels > > > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > > > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > > > > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, what > > > the heck, why not try them out > > > > > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8039|8031|2005-05-28 15:09:22|Henri Naths|Re: bilge keel profile?|Thanks Wynand. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "nortje_wynand" To: Sent: 28 May, 2005 5:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: bilge keel profile? > Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. > The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls > than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front > section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers the > 00 series. > > Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) and > the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. > > Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, > something you cannot do on a single finner! > > Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part > > Regards > Wynand > >> > | 8040|7992|2005-05-29 09:24:26|seeratlas|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|Ted, I wish you all the luck with your endplates and your creative curiosity that compelled you to expend the effort in developing them. In response to your last comment on the hydrodynamics of the endplate, I would only remind you that we are talking not about a multi hundred mile and hour airplane, or a 20 plus knot catamaran, we are talking about a six knot steel boat. I once had occasion to view some film of some testing of a couple of America's cup keel designs. Everything from the graphic depiction of the theory, the fabrication of numerous models and the tank testing of the final competing designs. It was all very impressive all the way up until they got to the final results, .... about .097 knots, best case scenario, and i believe the cup yachts are a might faster than Brent's 36. I'll be very interested in hearing any speed comparisons you work out with sister ships. As it turned out, they won that year, but because of an accident. Someone discovered that if they used an irregular surface along the bilges of the boat, it created a better boundary layer which improved laminar flow. I'm not entirely sure but if memory serves they accomplished it by applying some sort of serated film. The result of this 'accident' was responsible for the superiority of the boat. It made me wonder if paint applied by roller might similarly serve. As for my own boat, I've been engaged in gathering up all sorts of building equipt. for transport to the building site. I have an assortment of welders now, a metal lathe, band saw, several drill presses, and a host of grinders and other tools. As for the ship, I still havn't finalized the design. I've progressed to the "Spitfire" design mentality and accordingly have been mocking up interior components to ensure that the hull is dimensioned to fit the interior I need as opposed to the other way around :). I've also decided to take one long, last look at alloy, or at least an alloy cabin on steel hull and deck, but frankly I could care less about resale, as I'm hoping this will serve as my last boat and I keep coming back to the considerations I and others have expressed on occasions, i.e. abrasion resistance, ease and strength of welding and repair, corrosion/electrolysis concerns, and of course cost of materials. The lighter hull and presumably increased speed that an alloy hull might generate are also mitigated by the fact that I plan to spend a substantial amount of time in the European canal system where same is clearly trumped by impact and abrasion concerns. :) One little aside on design notes, I find that if I sit in a big easy chair, relax, close my eyes and try to create the boat in my mind, I find I can see where my initial placement of several galley items has proved awkward, that handholds will be needed at various heights and location I had not previously considered, that the angles of the backs of the settee's are going to have to be VERY carefully calculated for comfort both at anchor and underway (thinking about wedged 'stops'to make these adjustable :) and a host of other details that will make the difference between endurable vs. comfortable. Otoh, I do not yet have a clear picture of how the ground tackle is going to integrate with the bow and bowsprit arrangement. I'm starting to lean towards dual hawsepipes as I like good sized ground tackle but I don't like muscling it around on a heaving foredeck. It's been my experience that at a calm anchorage almost any arrangement will work, but when trying to either get underway or anchor securely in any kind of seaway, when the bow comes into the approaching seas, you can be flying up and down thru a range of 15 ft or so with even a moderate swell and manhandling 70 lb and up anchors around quickly becomes a non starter. Uncleat a claw, and unlock the pawl's and have them simply splash down or be hydraulicly drawn in, safe and secure in their own nested hawses seems to me the best and safest way to go. anyway, i've gotten to ramblin on so you can get an idea of where I am, "close" but not finished with the design :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > From memory, some time ago Brent wrote about using old gas bottles > welded to the bottom of the bilge keels and filled with lead to > lower the centre of gravity. This is when I started thinking about > modifying the keel tips as I am aware of the low ballast ratio and > centre of gravity of these boats. My design thoughts were that the > bottles would need faring in at the front to avoid snagging things > and faring in at the back to reduce drag. I was thinking of the > bulbs on the keels of commercially built boats. I didn't use gas > bottles because of my concerns as to the welding and fabrication of > the faring of them. I thought about using a 10" pipe with a stock > rounded end cap forward and the aft ends tapered. I felt that this > tapering and faring to the keel would be difficult for me to > fabricate. I thought about flaring the bottom on both sides so that > it would alow more lead but hadn't seen anybody else doing it, so > after seeing pictures of wing tips on commercially built twin > keelers I put all these ideas together to make them as you see in > the photo. As I had added to the wetted area I cut the round out of > the back to make up for it. I cannot see why they are more prone to > snagging than the original keels. I do not think that they will > improve windward performance noticably. That wasn't why I built them > like that. I do not think that they will stick in the mud much more > than the originals given that the originals are canted out. The > difference between loosing wellies or stilletos in the mud is > minimal. Not that I have ever worn stilletos you understand. Well > not in mud anyway. > Regards, > Ted | 8041|8028|2005-05-29 12:31:20|Russyl|Re: 39 foot Hutton cutter for sale|I forgot to put in my current email address and I apologize. b e r z e r k e r 7 7 @ h o t m a i l . c o m Without all the spaces| 8042|7992|2005-05-29 15:41:36|Gerd|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > .....we are talking > about a six knot steel boat. Seer, although I mostly agree with you, I also know that there are 6 and 6.5 knot steelboats, and that makes a hell of a difference ;-) You won't get 0.5 additional VMG from only from some steelplates sticking out or by adding a bulb etc, but by applying proper criteria throughout the design, and improving efficiency for each single element you can get that and a lot more. If this can be done without buying into exotic material or high tec production, so much the better. I remember when friends of mine in France embarked for a mini transat on their small boats they checked each others gear for excessive weight... at one point they cut the handles of their toothbrushes... well they laughed about it, but .. ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8043|8043|2005-05-30 00:42:38|jericoera|0012 NACA foils --take a look|Someone was asking me about 0012 foils. I am not an engineer so can't comment much further on them but I can tell you that if you look at Paul Fay's 40 foot bilge keeler at www.faymarine.com, he has some nice pics of his bilge keeler out of the water and you can see the bilge keels very nicely. You can look around his website and I think somewhere he actually tells you what foil shape he is using and I believe they were 0012. Not origami but one of the nicer looking do it yourselfer multichines I have seen--also really like his paintjob. Junk rigged too which I thought was unique because I haven't heard of anyone else with bilge keels running a junk rig. Carl McIntosh| 8044|8043|2005-05-30 03:38:08|sae140|Re: 0012 NACA foils --take a look|Hi Carl Excellent link - thanks. If you're interested in bilge keelers with junk rigs, check out: Corromandel, Kingfisher 20, 26, & 30, Newbridge Voyager - all production boats ... There's also a few Swain-based Origami junk rigs in the files/photos sections - dunno for sure if they're twin keelers though ... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > Someone was asking me about 0012 foils. I am not an engineer so can't > comment much further on them but I can tell you that if you look at > Paul Fay's 40 foot bilge keeler at www.faymarine.com, he has some nice > pics of his bilge keeler out of the water and you can see the bilge > keels very nicely. > > You can look around his website and I think somewhere he actually > tells you what foil shape he is using and I believe they were 0012. > > Not origami but one of the nicer looking do it yourselfer multichines > I have seen--also really like his paintjob. Junk rigged too which I > thought was unique because I haven't heard of anyone else with bilge > keels running a junk rig. > > > > Carl McIntosh | 8046|8046|2005-05-31 16:47:01|Glenn Cramond|Bollard and loo for sale on ebay Australia|Hi all, For sale on Ebay Double Horn Bollard http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4553337967 Boat toilet http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4553339366 Regards. Glenn| 8048|8033|2005-05-31 19:40:06|Alex|Re: Origamiboats film update|Well, Brent did come down the coast past our place by Fanny Bay, and I got those last crucial shots showing Brent's boat. I have put a still photo from that shoot on the group's main home page, one taken just as he was motoring away from the dock. The low sunlight of late afternoon was perfect, and although I lost some great footage by briefly thinking the camera was recording when in fact it was not, I've got enough to please the eye and stir the blood. Getting footage of a boat surfing down huge offshore swells will have to wait until I set forth on my journey (...this fall?). Alex| 8049|7433|2005-05-31 20:50:02|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|The searchable archive has been updated to current as of 5/31/05 and now contains 8,044 messages. This page features an intelligent search engine and no advertisements. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Please bookmark this site. A link has been placed in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web site if you should forget the link. Regards, --Ken Hooper| 8050|7992|2005-06-02 03:41:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Purpose of end plates (wings?) on keel tips|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > One little aside on design notes, I find that if I sit in a big easy > chair, relax, close my eyes and try to create the boat in my mind...... Seer, If I sit in a big easy chair, relax, close my eyes and try to create the boat in my mind, I tend to fall asleep. Building a boat is hard physical labour, although much more satisfying than working out in a gym. My wife and I both have sedentary jobs on computers and are sometimes so tired while working on the boat we stop and have a little doze. Regards, Ted| 8051|8051|2005-06-02 03:56:16|edward_stoneuk|Handling ground tackle|When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal with the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra chain for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward or aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone have views or experience on handling the second anchor? Regards, Ted| 8052|8052|2005-06-02 17:55:57|Henri Naths|coal tar epoxy|Hi all, Can anyone help me source coal tar epoxy here in Alberta. I'm located near Red Deer. Thanks Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8053|8052|2005-06-02 18:12:58|Alex Christie|Re: coal tar epoxy|Henri, There are two Cloverdale paints in Red Deer, one at Bay 3, 7667 50th Ave, and one at D2-2310 Gaetz Ave and both should carry Coal tar epoxy , or could likely bring it in, as it is on their general website. Look here at their product listing showing the coal tar: http://www.cloverdalepaint.com/html/catalog_ir.asp Regards, Alex On 2-Jun-05, at 2:55 PM, Henri Naths wrote: > Hi all, > Can anyone help me source coal tar epoxy here in Alberta. I'm located > near Red Deer. > Thanks > Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8054|8052|2005-06-02 18:24:05|Paul Cotter|Weld Fume|Hi Folks, I’m constructing a small shop and I want to install a weld fume exhaust system. Although it should be pretty easy to rig one up I thought I’d ask the group if anyone has a simple, cheap system that has worked for them. Also, does anyone have a recommended volume flow? I plan on flush-mounting a fan and then running flexible hose (3 or 4 in diameter, perhaps) to my welding corner. Any suggestions are most welcome. Cheers Paul _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8055|8052|2005-06-02 19:57:57|jim dorey|Re: Weld Fume|On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:25:37 -0300, Paul Cotter wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I’m constructing a small shop and I want to install a weld fume exhaust > system. Although it should be pretty easy to rig one up I thought I’d > ask the group if anyone has a simple, cheap system that has worked for > them. Also, does anyone have a recommended volume flow? I plan on > flush-mounting a fan and then running flexible hose (3 or 4 in diameter, > perhaps) to my welding corner. > > Any suggestions are most welcome. > > Cheers > > Paul mount a small hood on an articulated arm, with a fan, hose out the back, should work fine, though i must admit, it's better for soldering, high volume welding would need a rather hefty arm. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8056|8052|2005-06-02 20:10:29|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Weld Fume|I was thinking of instaling luvered vents with heating air filters at one end of my shop and a exaust fan at the other and that way drawing all fumes out and not letting dirt in like a paint booth. Jon| 8057|8052|2005-06-03 02:06:16|Henri Naths|Re: coal tar epoxy|Alex, Thanks for the link. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] coal tar epoxy > Henri, > > There are two Cloverdale paints in Red Deer, one at Bay 3, 7667 50th > Ave, and one at D2-2310 Gaetz Ave and both should carry Coal tar epoxy > , or could likely bring it in, as it is on their general website. Look > here at their product listing showing the coal tar: > > http://www.cloverdalepaint.com/html/catalog_ir.asp > > Regards, > > Alex > > > On 2-Jun-05, at 2:55 PM, Henri Naths wrote: > >> Hi all, >> Can anyone help me source coal tar epoxy here in Alberta. I'm located >> near Red Deer. >> Thanks >> Henri > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8058|8052|2005-06-03 15:14:29|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Weld Fume|To use a hose hooked up to a fan can draw the shealing away from the weld if too close and reduce the quality of the weld more so if useing a wire welder. Jon| 8059|8031|2005-06-03 15:37:24|brentswain38|Re: bilge keel profile?|I initial tried assymetrical , then went to symetrical on my boat in 1984. I noticed no noticable difference.Assymetrical ones may tend to stall when sailing downwind in a rough sea , being pushed from side to side a bit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. > The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls > than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front > section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers the > 00 series. > > Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) and > the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. > > Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, > something you cannot do on a single finner! > > Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part > > Regards > Wynand > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? > > thanks, > > Henri > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "jericoera" > > To: > > Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > > > > > > > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge keels > > > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > > > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > > > > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, what > > > the heck, why not try them out > > > > > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8060|8031|2005-06-03 15:44:26|brentswain38|Re: bilge keel profile?|The only relevant angles are the one between the sails and the keels, regardles of where they are relevant to the hull. If you want your leeward keel toed in , then sheet your sails in and point higher. If you want them toed out, ease the sheets and sail freer. Toeing them in on the hull looks good on a tank test model which is not being driven by sails, but is driven by a fixed point.Toe the hull in relevant to the course( as you do when you sheet in and point higher) and you get the same result. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > > > > Twin keels work best with toes-in. I have had good success with draft > as low as 48" on a 38' boat. The adopted angle in this case, 1.75 > deg.out. For pictures, go to http://www.tantonyachts.com Gallery > page 4. Reference #882. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > wrote: > > Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. > > The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls > > than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front > > section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers > the > > 00 series. > > > > Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) > and > > the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. > > > > Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, > > something you cannot do on a single finner! > > > > Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part > > > > Regards > > Wynand > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > > Hi Carl, > > > Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? > > > thanks, > > > Henri > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "jericoera" > > > To: > > > Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > > > > > > > > > > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge > keels > > > > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > > > > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > > > > > > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, > what > > > > the heck, why not try them out > > > > > > > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8061|8051|2005-06-04 04:24:21|sae140|Re: Handling ground tackle|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal with > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra chain > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward or > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > Regards, > Ted 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin| 8062|8051|2005-06-04 18:47:55|brentswain38|Re: Handling ground tackle|If you are stowing it under the cabin sole, then a hawse pipe over it will enable you to use the halyard winch on it. Two drums on one axle would work too, with a handle on each side. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal with > > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra chain > > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward > or > > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone > > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > > Regards, > > Ted > > 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin | 8063|8051|2005-06-05 04:13:28|seeratlas|Re: Handling ground tackle|Ted, On my own boats, I too used chain, however for the second anchor I only used chain for the last 30 feet or so, the rest being heavy nylon, as it was a backup anchor. The nylon served to offer a surprising amount of 'give' much like a rubber band, though you had be careful at all rub points. It too was stowed in the bow. Those boats were, however substantially different that the one I am designing now. My current thinking is to dispense with the chain, except again, perhaps a few meters at the anchor end to deal with abrasion on the bottom. The remainder of the rode will be cable. I spent many years observing that nearly every commercial fishing vessel I saw used a steel cable rode on a reel winch. When the guys who do it day in day out, regardless of sea or weather, you have to believe that that is the way to go. To deal with the two anchors I plan, my current thinking is to use two hydraulicly activated windlasses basically to Brent's design, and set them in a 'well' side by side so as to 1. protect and secure the windlasses below the deck but still not 'in the boat' so to speak, and 2. keep the weight slightly lower and set back from the bow. You save an awful lot of space by going to cable over chain, which makes the side by side arrangement viable. With the cover hinged and/or removed it is a simple thing to insert the the handles for manual retrieval. I see no reason why a shorter/fatter pair of cable twins would not work on the deck as is the more usual Swain practice. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal with > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra chain > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward or > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > Regards, > Ted | 8064|8031|2005-06-05 04:19:09|seeratlas|Re: bilge keel profile?|In my younger days i used to race a variety of small cat's, the Hobie's in particular, which use asymetrical hulls. It was my own personal conclusion that those cats of similar size and weight with symetrical rounded hulls were faster, and more manueverable. Dunno whether it had to do with stalling, but Brent's comments about the hulls pushing from side to side triggered the thought. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I initial tried assymetrical , then went to symetrical on my boat in > 1984. I noticed no noticable difference.Assymetrical ones may tend to > stall when sailing downwind in a rough sea , being pushed from side > to side a bit. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > wrote: > > Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. > > The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls > > than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front > > section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers > the > > 00 series. > > > > Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) > and > > the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. > > > > Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, > > something you cannot do on a single finner! > > > > Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part > > > > Regards > > Wynand > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > > Hi Carl, > > > Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? > > > thanks, > > > Henri > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "jericoera" > > > To: > > > Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > > > > > > > > > > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge > keels > > > > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > > > > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > > > > > > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, > what > > > > the heck, why not try them out > > > > > > > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8065|8031|2005-06-05 10:00:29|jericoera|Re: bilge keel profile?|Yes, but if you look at Russel Brown's famous proa "Jezzaro", it has asymetrical hulls to a visually staggering degree albeit it is a multihull. I would suppose there are somewhat different influences in monohull due to design, ballast characteristics and hull forms. Carl McIntosh --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > In my younger days i used to race a variety of small cat's, the > Hobie's in particular, which use asymetrical hulls. It was my own > personal conclusion that those cats of similar size and weight with > symetrical rounded hulls were faster, and more manueverable. > Dunno whether it had to do with stalling, but Brent's comments about > the hulls pushing from side to side triggered the thought. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I initial tried assymetrical , then went to symetrical on my boat in > > 1984. I noticed no noticable difference.Assymetrical ones may tend to > > stall when sailing downwind in a rough sea , being pushed from side > > to side a bit. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > > wrote: > > > Henry, If i may chime in. It depends on the series; 63A (00) or 64A. > > > The 64A have a lower lift coeffiecient and hence lower speed stalls > > > than the 00. Basically the 00 foil section is thicker in the front > > > section and the leading edge raduis larger. Most designers prefers > > the > > > 00 series. > > > > > > Explaining the 0012. the 00 means no camber (symmetrical section) > > and > > > the 12 that the thickness to cord lenght ratio is 12 percent. > > > > > > Yes Carl, twin keels even works better when they are asymmetrical, > > > something you cannot do on a single finner! > > > > > > Ps. Post deleted and reposted due to typo error on my part > > > > > > Regards > > > Wynand > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > wrote: > > > > Hi Carl, > > > > Could you explain more about the NACA 0012 foil profile? > > > > thanks, > > > > Henri > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "jericoera" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: 27 May, 2005 6:54 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] bilge keel profile? > > > > > > > > > > > > > All this talk about endplates has me wondering about the bilge > > keels > > > > > themselves. I have heard of people using NACA 0012 foil profiles > > > > > slightly toed in and achieving decent results on bilge keelers. > > > > > > > > > > If they are no more difficult to make but improve performance, > > what > > > > > the heck, why not try them out > > > > > > > > > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8066|8051|2005-06-05 10:20:09|john kupris|Re: Handling ground tackle|Hi Brent, I will be building one of your winches and I have a few questions. When the anchor is lowered, what stops the cable from backlashing? Do you use use something as a friction devise to slow the payout? I do not think that the anchor cable under strain is secured on a winch pawl, so if it is secured on a round samson post what keeps the wire from kinking and twisting? Thanks for fielding dumb questions # 12 & 13. John brentswain38 wrote: If you are stowing it under the cabin sole, then a hawse pipe over it will enable you to use the halyard winch on it. Two drums on one axle would work too, with a handle on each side. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal with > > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra chain > > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward > or > > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone > > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > > Regards, > > Ted > > 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8067|8051|2005-06-05 16:21:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: Handling ground tackle|Seer, Several folks have mentioned using steel cable/wire rope for the anchor rode. My knowledge of steel cable in marine use is on Brixham fishing trawlers where it is used to haul their trawls. It gets very rusty. How long do you think it will last before first going rusty and secondly becoming frayed and attcking any hand that gets near it. Regards, Ted| 8068|8051|2005-06-06 03:19:18|sae140|Re: Handling ground tackle|When using wire as an anchor rode - is it a case of "all out or all in" (?) - or is there a way of cleating-off a length of rode so that the winch itself doesn't take the full strain ? Also - my understanding of anchor rodes is that they are best when having some means of absorbing shocks - either by being elastic (nylon) or heavy (chain). Wire appears to offer neither of these - unless a nylon snubber could be rigged up. Parallel-lay rope, of which I have several hundred feet which I was hoping to use as anchor rode, is almost as strong as steel, but much lighter and without corrosion problems. It's similar to steel rope in having virtually no stretch at all, but is much more awkward to splice or terminate, which is normally done using spike and barrel fittings - of which I have none ... I'm currently thinking in terms of a length of chain, followed by a length of oversized nylon, followed by this weird rope which I'm thinking of terminating with a thimble and potting with 10-ton epoxy (have yet to test this method). It has a Kevlar (aramid) parallel inner, with a nylon braid outer and is believed to have been used for static safety lines on rig platforms. If anyone has experience of handling this stuff, could they drop me an email ? Many thanks. Colin| 8069|22|2005-06-06 07:56:01|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /fairhavens.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : http://www.mkt-info.com/fairhavens/ eBook Dream Building You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/fairhavens.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8070|8070|2005-06-06 08:11:31|Puck III|eBook : Dream Building|Hi All , its of Topic , on the other hand I wanted to share how easy that informative eBook came to me . I was so impressed with its content I went to my nearest copycenter and had it printed out and now I am equaly happy with both options : electronic PDF pages & a pretty book. http://www.mkt-info.com/fairhavens/ is the direct link. Just wondering what you all think of this editing system that feeds the boating community with info & entertainment. Please tell me what you all think. Old Ben| 8071|8070|2005-06-06 14:09:14|Gerd|Re: eBook : Dream Building|Hi Ben - here is what I think ;-) Yes, I read tons of ebooks myself, I have had almost every model of PDA over the years, old casio organizers, Psions, Palm, Sharps, you name it... and always mostly for reading. At the moment I re-read Slocum's Liberdade on my pocketpc. I always have about 10 or 15 books on it, and I have a collection of about 1000 e-books by now. There a lots of files for free on the net, some of them even legal ;- ) For example there is a HUGE collection of mostly classic public domain stuff at the Gutenberg Project http://www.gutenberg.org/, more than 15.000 books and counting. I picked up the complete Honblower, complete Joseph Conrad, all Slocum etc for free there. For voyaging this is great, a pocketpc lets you take tons of books at no weight, and serves as a gps, navigator etc, for peanuts. But what bugs me really, is the price of commercial e-books. When I was a young man, I wrote 2 books for kids and actually managed to find a publisher. The Author (me...) got then 10 % of the shop-price, with the rest going to the distribution (up to 50, 60 %) the production had to be financed up front (by the publisher if you were lucky) and only a very a small part remains with the publisher. Now, when I see an e-book that has alsmost no distribution cost, no printing etc, being sold for basically the same price as a "real" book in the shop, I am not buying... actually the e-book version is a side product of the electronic preparation for printing anyway. Plus the fact that Digital Rights Management as practised by most publishers does not even give me the book but in reality only gives me the "right to read it's content", because I can't sell it or lend it to a friend. A pdf file for 17 US ??? Pay for the printing on top of that? No thanks. Give me an e-book that cost about 20 % of a paper book and that I can lend to a friend, and I will buy like crazy ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi All , its of Topic , on the other hand I wanted to share how > easy that informative eBook came to me . > I was so impressed with its content I went to my nearest > copycenter and had it printed out and now I am equaly happy > with both options : electronic PDF pages & a pretty book. > http://www.mkt-info.com/fairhavens/ is the direct link. > Just wondering what you all think of this editing system that > feeds the boating community with info & entertainment. > Please tell me what you all think. > > Old Ben | 8072|8070|2005-06-06 19:07:06|kendall|Re: eBook : Dream Building|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi Ben - here is what I think ;-) > > Yes, I read tons of ebooks myself, I have had almost every model of > PDA over the years, old casio organizers, Psions, Palm, Sharps, you > name it... and always mostly for reading. At the moment I re-read > Slocum's Liberdade on my pocketpc. I always have about 10 or 15 > books on it, and I have a collection of about 1000 e-books by now. > > There a lots of files for free on the net, some of them even legal ;- > ) > > For example there is a HUGE collection of mostly classic public > domain stuff at the Gutenberg Project http://www.gutenberg.org/, > more than 15.000 books and counting. I picked up the complete > Honblower, complete Joseph Conrad, all Slocum etc for free there. > > For voyaging this is great, a pocketpc lets you take tons of books > at no weight, and serves as a gps, navigator etc, for peanuts. > > But what bugs me really, is the price of commercial e-books. > > When I was a young man, I wrote 2 books for kids and actually > managed to find a publisher. The Author (me...) got then 10 % of the > shop-price, with the rest going to the distribution (up to 50, 60 %) > the production had to be financed up front (by the publisher if you > were lucky) and only a very a small part remains with the publisher. > > Now, when I see an e-book that has alsmost no distribution cost, no > printing etc, being sold for basically the same price as a "real" > book in the shop, I am not buying... actually the e-book version is > a side product of the electronic preparation for printing anyway. > > Plus the fact that Digital Rights Management as practised by most > publishers does not even give me the book but in reality only gives > me the "right to read it's content", because I can't sell it or lend > it to a friend. > > A pdf file for 17 US ??? Pay for the printing on top of that? No > thanks. Give me an e-book that cost about 20 % of a paper book and > that I can lend to a friend, and I will buy like crazy ;-) > > Gerd agreed completely, if I'm paying full price, or very close to it, then I want the hard copy, I read like crazy, and first found gutenberg a couple years ago, I'd say I have a couple hundred books from there, and roughly 800 real books, (paperbacks and hardcover I have bookshelves at home, my moms, my daughters, my cousins, and my aunts place, no room to keep them all at the same address! all indexed and cross reffed on my pc so I know where to find the one I want) I won't buy, and I realy hate PDF 'books', they are too big, and not realy too convenient to use (pdftohtml off the web, break it down to chapters, and use firefox to read it works great!) I can't see paying near full price for a book that you legally can't loan out, or sell off when you decide you don't want it anymore. Ken.| 8073|8070|2005-06-07 01:53:45|Bruce Dillahunty|Re: eBooks|Not really boating, although very handy to use on a boat or anywhere you don't have much storage space... ebooks are great. Please try one before you go to the "it doesn't feel the same" or "I won't get 'into' it like a paper book". A good source for Sci-Fi is www.baen.com - they provide the books, totally DRM free (unlocked, just text/html and several other formats). Use it as you wish. Jim Baen trusts you to be an honest consumer and pay for what you use. Bruce| 8074|8051|2005-06-07 08:02:43|seeratlas|Re: Handling ground tackle|The cable I've seen being used appeared to be the stainless aircraft cable one often finds on 4x4 auto winches, tho I suppose some are using heavily galvanized cable also. The stainless holds up very well as long as the drum diameter is kept to a suitable size. On the fishing boats I've seen up and around Vancouver and points north, I did not see the kind of rusting you are describing. Maybe we can get one of the guys who is near to a fishing home port to wander over and ask them exactly what they are using. good thought. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > Several folks have mentioned using steel cable/wire rope for the > anchor rode. My knowledge of steel cable in marine use is on Brixham > fishing trawlers where it is used to haul their trawls. It gets very > rusty. How long do you think it will last before first going rusty > and secondly becoming frayed and attcking any hand that gets near it. > Regards, > Ted | 8075|8051|2005-06-07 08:26:51|seeratlas|Re: Handling ground tackle|You are correct on your understanding. Snubbing up hard against the anchor is a good way to break it out of the bottom losing all holding entirely at worst, and dragging at best, something to be avoided. Most wire users seem to use a pendulum weight of some type that is hung on the wire rode and lowered down on another line to a suitable depth thus changing the angle of the rode to the anchor increasing holding while reducing required scope,and creating a range of tensioned movement over the rode which allows some give and take before snubbing up hard against the anchor. Also, a length of heavy chain at the end of the rode provides additional flexibility as it is alternately lifted and lowered off the bottom, having the additional benefit of dealing with any abrasion concerns. As for the tying off the rode, the setups I've seen appeared to have the windlass taking the load with a drum locking device which has a friction clutch built in. The principle being, I think, similar to that of the drag on a deep sea fishing reel. I could see where something off windlass, like a line stopper jam cleat could be employed. Very interesting questions, the next time I'm up there, I think I'll grab a case or so of a suitable local brew and amble down to talk to some of the fisherman at the docks and see exactly how they are setup. The ones I saw invariably had custom built windlasses which were SECURELY fastened to the deck. Perhaps something as simple as a levered band around the drum, a 'brake'if you will, would do the trick and be simple to install, and operate. Lastly, as I said before I have used chain then a length of nylon, as a rode and had satisfactory results, my only problem being keeping the rode untangled in storage, but the reel winch would solve that problem. Off hand I see no problem with what you propose, again tho, you must be extremely carefull of abrasion at the hawse and anywhere else the line is going to be snubbed up against. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > When using wire as an anchor rode - is it a case > of "all out or all in" (?) - or is there a way of > cleating-off a length of rode so that the winch > itself doesn't take the full strain ? > > Also - my understanding of anchor rodes is that > they are best when having some means of absorbing > shocks - either by being elastic (nylon) or heavy > (chain). Wire appears to offer neither of these - > unless a nylon snubber could be rigged up. > > Parallel-lay rope, of which I have several hundred > feet which I was hoping to use as anchor rode, is > almost as strong as steel, but much lighter and > without corrosion problems. It's similar to steel > rope in having virtually no stretch at all, but is > much more awkward to splice or terminate, which is > normally done using spike and barrel fittings - of > which I have none ... > > I'm currently thinking in terms of a length of chain, > followed by a length of oversized nylon, followed by > this weird rope which I'm thinking of terminating > with a thimble and potting with 10-ton epoxy (have > yet to test this method). It has a Kevlar (aramid) > parallel inner, with a nylon braid outer and is > believed to have been used for static safety lines > on rig platforms. If anyone has experience of > handling this stuff, could they drop me an email ? > Many thanks. Colin | 8076|8051|2005-06-07 11:08:36|edward_stoneuk|Re: Handling ground tackle|Seer, I have seen ship windlasses with band brakes that were tightened up using a hand wheel on a screw thread. This was to stop the anchor chain from paying itself out completely and smothering the anchor. Some folks recommend a chain and polypropylene rope rode for sail boats. The polypropylene floats itself out of abrasion danger. It would be interesting to talk to fisherman on their experiences with wire rope. My farm experiences of it are the evil way strands pierced ones hand and then ran along under the skin. The consequences of trying to save money using wire rope that anybody else would have thrown away, I guess. Regards, Ted| 8077|8077|2005-06-07 20:28:30|Gopika B|Heama is 20 years old and she is looking for unmarried guy as her l|http://www.masmarriage.com/indian/profile.asp?id=mas00122f __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8078|8078|2005-06-07 22:05:24|SHANE ROTHWELL|Stilletto's in the mud|Ted, Delighted to hear you haven't fallen for the old ploy of wearing stilletto's in the mud, though I'm not too sure of your other admission re stilletto's.... Fall off em much? Like your comments/thoughts on the bulbs on the keels tho Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8079|8079|2005-06-07 22:12:02|Gopika B|Hot actress Lakshmi Rai acted as heroine in film 'Karka Kasadara'-|http://www.veenaimovies.com/wallPaperArtist.asp?artistId=1023&artist_name=Lakshmi%20Rai --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8080|8080|2005-06-07 22:14:20|brentswain38|Interior lining|Rowland just put me onto a good idea that he picked up ate the wooden boat show for lining the overhead. You take some of that Corroplast, which looks like corrugated cardboard , and is used for signs. You just cut it to shape and contact cement vinyl uphoplstery onto it, then screw it to your overhead with wooden strips to spread the load.It's cheap, super light and has a slight insulating factor to it as long as you seal the ends. The corrugations should run along the curve , or it will collapse.It looks great,is easy to clean, and unlike plywood, should last forever and never delaminate or rot. Brent| 8081|8051|2005-06-07 22:16:56|brentswain38|Re: Handling ground tackle|For the last 26 years I've found that simply putting a bit of pressure on the drum with your foot will slow it down and stop it from overunning. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris wrote: > Hi Brent, I will be building one of your winches and I have a few questions. When the anchor is lowered, what stops the cable from backlashing? Do you use use something as a friction devise to slow the payout? > > I do not think that the anchor cable under strain is secured on a winch pawl, so if it is secured > on a round samson post what keeps the wire from kinking and twisting? > > Thanks for fielding dumb questions # 12 & 13. John > > brentswain38 wrote: > If you are stowing it under the cabin sole, then a hawse pipe over it > will enable you to use the halyard winch on it. Two drums on one axle > would work too, with a handle on each side. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal > with > > > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra > chain > > > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward > > or > > > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone > > > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8082|8051|2005-06-07 22:19:13|brentswain38|Re: Handling ground tackle|I run either the rope end for high lattitudes , or a poly prop rope snubber hooked into an eye on the wire rope, around a moorring bit to take the load. A brake is not worth the trouble. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris wrote: > Hi Brent, I will be building one of your winches and I have a few questions. When the anchor is lowered, what stops the cable from backlashing? Do you use use something as a friction devise to slow the payout? > > I do not think that the anchor cable under strain is secured on a winch pawl, so if it is secured > on a round samson post what keeps the wire from kinking and twisting? > > Thanks for fielding dumb questions # 12 & 13. John > > brentswain38 wrote: > If you are stowing it under the cabin sole, then a hawse pipe over it > will enable you to use the halyard winch on it. Two drums on one axle > would work too, with a handle on each side. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal > with > > > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra > chain > > > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just forward > > or > > > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does anyone > > > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8083|8051|2005-06-07 22:23:43|brentswain38|Re: Handling ground tackle|I've used stainless 7X19. John Sampson used galvanized. He said in the South Pacific, each end lasted 2 1/2 years, then he would end for end it and get another 2 1/2 years out of it. It's cheap as hell galvanized. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > Several folks have mentioned using steel cable/wire rope for the > anchor rode. My knowledge of steel cable in marine use is on Brixham > fishing trawlers where it is used to haul their trawls. It gets very > rusty. How long do you think it will last before first going rusty > and secondly becoming frayed and attcking any hand that gets near it. > Regards, > Ted | 8084|8051|2005-06-07 22:30:16|brentswain38|Re: Handling ground tackle|I high lattitudes where there is no coral, mostly rope works well and I've had no probelem with only 15 ft of wire nearest the anchor. In the tropics I use a nicopres eye at 50 ft, 100 ft and 200 ft which enables me to hook in a polyprop( Floating ) snubber line with a float on the end of the wire wherever there is an eye.Sometimes I put a 30 lb lump of lead on the wire for snubbing effect. In moderate conditions, the poly and float are enough. Non metallic anchor rode would not last more than a few minutes around coral unless it were all floating and all on the surface, no matter how high tech it is. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > When using wire as an anchor rode - is it a case > of "all out or all in" (?) - or is there a way of > cleating-off a length of rode so that the winch > itself doesn't take the full strain ? > > Also - my understanding of anchor rodes is that > they are best when having some means of absorbing > shocks - either by being elastic (nylon) or heavy > (chain). Wire appears to offer neither of these - > unless a nylon snubber could be rigged up. > > Parallel-lay rope, of which I have several hundred > feet which I was hoping to use as anchor rode, is > almost as strong as steel, but much lighter and > without corrosion problems. It's similar to steel > rope in having virtually no stretch at all, but is > much more awkward to splice or terminate, which is > normally done using spike and barrel fittings - of > which I have none ... > > I'm currently thinking in terms of a length of chain, > followed by a length of oversized nylon, followed by > this weird rope which I'm thinking of terminating > with a thimble and potting with 10-ton epoxy (have > yet to test this method). It has a Kevlar (aramid) > parallel inner, with a nylon braid outer and is > believed to have been used for static safety lines > on rig platforms. If anyone has experience of > handling this stuff, could they drop me an email ? > Many thanks. Colin | 8085|8051|2005-06-08 08:03:15|Courtney Thomas|Re: Handling ground tackle|What do you use for an eye and how is it attached to the wire rope, please ? Thank you, Courtney On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 21:19, brentswain38 wrote: > I run either the rope end for high lattitudes , or a poly prop rope > snubber hooked into an eye on the wire rope, around a moorring bit to > take the load. > A brake is not worth the trouble. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris > wrote: > > Hi Brent, I will be building one of your winches and I have a few > questions. When the anchor is lowered, what stops the cable from > backlashing? Do you use use something as a friction devise to slow > the payout? > > > > I do not think that the anchor cable under strain is secured on a > winch pawl, so if it is secured > > on a round samson post what keeps the wire from kinking and > twisting? > > > > Thanks for fielding dumb questions # 12 & 13. John > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > If you are stowing it under the cabin sole, then a hawse pipe over > it > > will enable you to use the halyard winch on it. Two drums on one > axle > > would work too, with a handle on each side. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > wrote: > > > > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal > > with > > > > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra > > chain > > > > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just > forward > > > or > > > > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does > anyone > > > > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8086|8051|2005-06-09 18:06:35|brentswain38|Re: Handling ground tackle|For stainless wire I use copper nicopress sleeves and a stainless thimble.Keep an eye on the sleeve as it chafes and wears out from rubbing accross the bottom eventually, and needs ocasional replacing. For Galvanized wire that would cause electrolysis, so a splice would be better. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > What do you use for an eye and how is it attached to the wire rope, > please ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 21:19, brentswain38 wrote: > > I run either the rope end for high lattitudes , or a poly prop rope > > snubber hooked into an eye on the wire rope, around a moorring bit to > > take the load. > > A brake is not worth the trouble. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris > > wrote: > > > Hi Brent, I will be building one of your winches and I have a few > > questions. When the anchor is lowered, what stops the cable from > > backlashing? Do you use use something as a friction devise to slow > > the payout? > > > > > > I do not think that the anchor cable under strain is secured on a > > winch pawl, so if it is secured > > > on a round samson post what keeps the wire from kinking and > > twisting? > > > > > > Thanks for fielding dumb questions # 12 & 13. John > > > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > If you are stowing it under the cabin sole, then a hawse pipe over > > it > > > will enable you to use the halyard winch on it. Two drums on one > > axle > > > would work too, with a handle on each side. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > When a boat has two anchors and a drum winch, how does one deal > > > with > > > > > the rode of the second anchor? I am thinking of carrying extra > > > chain > > > > > for the 2nd anchor and storing it under the cabin sole just > > forward > > > > or > > > > > aft of the built in water tank between the twin keels. Does > > anyone > > > > > have views or experience on handling the second anchor? > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > 2 half-width drums on the same axle ? Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8087|8087|2005-06-11 14:08:13|seeratlas|Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Ok, Brent can scroll past this its just more daydreaming and more complicated and probably more costly, which we all know is an anathema to the champion of simplicity, cheap, and 'get r done' :) For the rest of the daydreamers, here's a thought. My boat is intended as a motorsailor, i.e. sometimes slogging along at 3 knots just isn't all that much fun, however, motoring along hour after hour with that unending engine drone, and vibration isn't all that much fun either. Most sailors will tell you, they either sail, or motor, and almost NEVER actuall "motor/sail". HOWEVER, what if, you could run at your steady cruise speed regardless, taking advantage of any favorable wind and the speed induced wind generated by forward boat movement...AND do it quietly, and i mean almost noiselessly? Wouldn't it be fun to 'sail' right past the rest of the weekend fleet without any tell/tale diesel noise/smoke/or smell? Similarly, make good speed over the ground regardless of light or fickle wind or weather withOUT the noise,smell,and vibration of the aux? Ok, so there's the dream, now how to get there without spending more than the boat. If you look at solomon technologies, or 'STI" who actually design and build electric boat powered systems, you find out in a hurry that price is ridiculous..I mean c'mon who are they kidding. But enter Briggs&STratton...check out this motor guys.. 15hp max, and 8 sustained...and , it weighs all of 21 lbs. http://www.briggsandstratton.com/display/router.asp?DocID=68483 Given that electric DC motors can swing big time props because of their flat torque curves, AND, that prop speed changes and direction are simply matters of turning a dial, as opposed to shifting a transmisson.....perhaps two of these? using the drive belt system that Harley uses; to drive a single shaft? That's 30 peak, and 16 sustained...and those are DC hp figures, which can effectively equal 3 times that in diesel hp for getting the torque to the prop...hmmmmm. This guy even put one on an old outboard lower end.. http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etekoutboard.html still daydreaming now, you'd want a bank of deep cycle batteries, probably golf cart ones for the money and endurance, so Trojan is probably the first place to look. Then you'd need to figure out which /what voltages and controller you want, big inverters, and a much smaller 'generator' diesel..to charge everything up. [I suppose you could even use a smaller than normal diesel (fuel savings here) with a standard drive to the prop, and belt off the twin dc motors to the shaft such that you could drive the shaft with the trans in neutral and the diesel off.] You'd want to isolation mount the genset, minimizing noise, vibration, smell,and heat. When sailing 'HOT' i.e. with plenty of wind, don't know why you couldn't use the dc motors as dc generators i.e. letting the prop freewheel and use the wind to recharge your battery bank thus providing 'free' electric power. Throw in your wind gen and solar, and now you have electricity coming out the ears..soo,, lose the lpgas? install cheap RV electric stove/oven/micro/ I was planning on going that route anyway. Hell, you could even duplicate his electric outboard setup and remove the need to carry gasoline/petrol for the dinghy. Sure now, its more complicated, more costly, BUT,,, 1. you were going to have a battery anyway, now you have a bunch LOL 2. You were going to need electric power anyway, so an inverter was in the picture, AND, Just imagine sailing if you got it all to work? Six knot wind? six knot boat speed, nearly silent..nearly vibration free, and nearly like pure sailing... How much 'motorsailing' would you do then? For myself, I think I would do hella more. One last thought, as most of you know by now..my boat is intended to eventually end up spending a LOT of time on the european waterways and canals..imagine the difference of near silently 'ghosting' along...as opposed to motoring...hmmm:)I mean after all, isn't the absence of engine noise the reason we sail as opposed to powerboat in the first place? :) Oh and I guess a final note. Seems like more and more there are waters where diesel boats are restricted from entering...some of them really desirable places to visit, like nature preserves etc... hmmmmm :) Ok, we now return you to your normal channel. Have a nice day :) seer| 8088|8088|2005-06-11 14:41:57|seeratlas|Interesting article on the B&S DC motor|http://www.specialtyvehiclesonline.com/eprints/briggsandstratton.htm seer| 8089|8087|2005-06-11 18:22:43|jim dorey|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:07:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: > Sure now, its more complicated, more costly, BUT,,, > 1. you were going to have a battery anyway, now you have a bunch LOL > 2. You were going to need electric power anyway, so an inverter was in > the picture, AND, you were gonna need lead ballast anyways. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8090|8090|2005-06-11 19:02:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Fw: back from barbados|Someone was asking about our rudder designs. Here is what we recommend. http://www.origamimagic.com/offshore_rudder_and_skeg.htm Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8091|8091|2005-06-11 19:20:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|back from barbados|Some thoughts on twin keels. http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_keels.htm Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8092|8091|2005-06-11 20:09:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|back from barbados|Twin rudders http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_rudders.htm Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8093|8093|2005-06-11 21:32:34|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: weldless framing technology|Ed, Perhaps you do not fully understand the basic consept of origami construction.it's to save time............Good morning! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8096|8087|2005-06-12 04:22:07|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|There are a couple of places selling these motors for 325.00 .... that is NOT a lot of money, and expected working life is long. dunno, :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:07:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: > > > Sure now, its more complicated, more costly, BUT,,, > > 1. you were going to have a battery anyway, now you have a bunch LOL > > 2. You were going to need electric power anyway, so an inverter was in > > the picture, AND, > > you were gonna need lead ballast anyways. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8097|8087|2005-06-12 15:04:57|Henri Naths|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Seer fuel for the dream(ers)... several companies make (gas diesel etc,) microturbine gen sets, smaller, lighter more efficient than diesel gen set. Might there be an application to use the turbine thrust for additional propulsion???could augment the electric/generator drive. cheers Henri p.s. rainy daydream ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: 12 June, 2005 12:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :) > There are a couple of places selling these motors for 325.00 .... > that is NOT a lot of money, and expected working life is long. > dunno, :) > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: >> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:07:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: >> >> > Sure now, its more complicated, more costly, BUT,,, >> > 1. you were going to have a battery anyway, now you have a bunch LOL >> > 2. You were going to need electric power anyway, so an inverter was in >> > the picture, AND, >> >> you were gonna need lead ballast anyways. >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8098|8091|2005-06-12 15:05:15|Gerd|Re: back from barbados|Hi Greg - and WELCOME! back ;-) Had a look at your page in twinkeels. Yes, that is _one_ effect, but I would not go as far in my conclusions as you. Although it is true that the fact that the windward keel will stick out where it should not at this particular moment and helps the capsize, there are at least 2 other factors that may outweigh this in my opinion: 1 - Bilge keels are usually designed so as to reduce draft, meaning that they will go less deep than a high aspect fin. Of course, as the boat heels, the leeward keel will first _increase_ draft and have a better grip, which you do not want then, but if the bilge keels are very low-aspect, they should still remain in the perturbed higher layers and not grip in deep solid water. Also, don't forget that a single bilge keel usually has _less_ lateral area than it's single keel equivalent. The angle of the keels change the equation as well, some designs with near vertical bilge keels would present different picture. 2 - In the initial moment of broaching and heeling far over, the windward keel might actually leave the water and "get heavier in the air" as I have heard some people say. Of course it does not, but the center of buoyancy does move to leeward when the volume of the keel leaves the water and that does increase the righting moment. If the keels are of the fat sort, that can help indeed. In any case, this is a chaotic and most of all _dynamic_ situation, and we have to take speed and masses into account, and once you get to the point where the rig is immersed and acts on the movement, things get difficult to predict. I think that the most important thing is to consider keel/rudder configurations with regard to their effectiveness in _preventing_ broaching and that means not have more lateral area than necessary (no full long keel), and good steering (twin rudders are a plus there) an generally a hull designed for good control at high speed when the downhill acceleration starts. On boats with variable lateral plans like centerboarders or keel/board combination, being able to lift a board, reduce grip in solid water and move the center of the lateral plan aft will all help pas well. My feeling is that this is indeed one negative aspect of the bilge keel in specific conditions, and - depending on hull and keel design - probably a minor one, and I would not go as far as to ban them from offshore sailing. Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Some thoughts on twin keels. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_keels.htm > > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8099|8087|2005-06-12 15:05:32|khooper_fboats|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|I've been thinking along these lines as well, want to do river cruising on remote rivers with no fuel for many hundreds of miles (Kuskokwim for instance). Would probably need upwards of 50 HP to get up a fast river?, fuel availability rapidly becomes a problem with a diesel. Four of those electric motors with simple electric clutches and a lot of forklift batteries. No transmission at all. Replace the weight of the transmisison with more batteries. You go upstream until you can't anymore, anchor, disengage the motors then clutch in an alternator (better to concentrate the recharging wear in a single alternator which is easy to rebuild, replace and find spares for). This could easily be pushbutton-simple using a mechanism exactly like the air conditioner on your car. Recharge. Repeat. Leapfrog up rivers in this way indefinitely, literally for free. --Hoop| 8100|8100|2005-06-12 15:05:43|Tim|Looking for old rides|Maybe this group can help me locate some sailboats I use to crew on in the 60's and 70's. We did the Coast of the Central Americas. One is the Ketch 'Black dolphin' and angleman with a black, of course, hull out of San Diego, CA. Next is the schooner 'Ululu' an alden bought in Florida, but I expect with a Washington registry now (might still be in the hands of a Panamaian politico), and the last is the schooner 'LaVengro' a yacht design of the old Missippi fishing schooners from Florida but might be a Ca Registry now. The last I expect to have been deep sixed as the skipper kept breaking things and running out of water and fuel, before I got on it. I had fun fixing everything during my tenure..... Thanks, Tim| 8101|8101|2005-06-12 15:07:21|SHANE ROTHWELL|flame wars|Alex, Your right. My appologies for wasting your time. will use the delete button as opposed to reacting. Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8102|8087|2005-06-12 15:23:43|Tim|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|I have been on several remote rivers, Amazon, Atrato, Caqueta, Putumayo, Magdalena, and Tempisque, and there was diesel everywhere. Gasoline also. Electric sounds great though. It seems like A 4 bladed prop is the key...... ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 7:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :) I've been thinking along these lines as well, want to do river cruising on remote rivers with no fuel for many hundreds of miles (Kuskokwim for instance). Would probably need upwards of 50 HP to get up a fast river?, fuel availability rapidly becomes a problem with a diesel. Four of those electric motors with simple electric clutches and a lot of forklift batteries. No transmission at all. Replace the weight of the transmisison with more batteries. You go upstream until you can't anymore, anchor, disengage the motors then clutch in an alternator (better to concentrate the recharging wear in a single alternator which is easy to rebuild, replace and find spares for). This could easily be pushbutton-simple using a mechanism exactly like the air conditioner on your car. Recharge. Repeat. Leapfrog up rivers in this way indefinitely, literally for free. --Hoop To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8103|8091|2005-06-12 18:20:41|sae140|Re: back from barbados|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Had a look at your page in twinkeels. Yes, that is _one_ effect, but > I would not go as far in my conclusions as you. > Hi Gerd I do wish I had your generosity of spirit towards someone who has such an uncanny knack of getting people's backs up with so little effort ... Anyone can pick a moment in wave behaviour which creates a situation to fit their particular prejudice regarding keels. If a boat is falling off the top of a steep breaking wave for example, then the twin keeler would probably survive better than it's full finned cousin which may well be tripped up by it's deeper keel. I would also challenge the inferred proposition being made that offshore conditions are inherently more hazardous than coastal. Dangerous short steep breaking seas occur regularly in areas where a long fetch meets shallow water. This scenario exists around Britain's south and east coasts, where twin keelers remain prolific. Colin| 8104|8087|2005-06-12 18:29:40|sae140|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > One last thought, as most of you know by now..my boat is intended to > eventually end up spending a LOT of time on the european waterways and > canals..imagine the difference of near silently 'ghosting' along...as > opposed to motoring...hmmm:)I mean after all, isn't the absence of > engine noise the reason we sail as opposed to powerboat in the first > place? :) > Hi Seer Interesting concept. I wonder how long these motors would survive in a salt-laden atmosphere ? Re: spending a LOT of time on the canals .... how are you planning to recharge the batteries ? Colin| 8105|8091|2005-06-12 18:46:02|Gerd|Re: back from barbados|> I would also challenge the inferred proposition > being made that offshore conditions are inherently > more hazardous than coastal. Dangerous short steep > breaking seas occur regularly in areas where a > long fetch meets shallow water. Good point, Colin, the only time I had the spreaders in the water was in shoal water. Another occasion when I nearly stopped sailing (and a lot of other things too) was when i was stupid enough to take a small plywood Caprice into the portland bill race ;-) we were sailing downwind, eastward against the ebb when suddenly a big hole opened in front of me, deep enough to put a house in. At that moment, I had been sailing for about a week ;-) did not understand at all what was happening to me... We sailed the same first breaker full pelt downhill, serveral time in a row, for what seemed like hours. I had read that I had to keep the ass to the wave, and insisted on riding the wave again and again ... almost succeeded to drown us. it was difficult, because in the tiny cockpit I had managed to put on this cheap solid cork lifebelt I had bought second hand at a jumble sale, passenger belt from a norwegian steamer, and it was so bulky that I blocked the tiller against it and could not pull it any further - that was was saved us, I guess, because finally we were broached, then the breaker swept over all of it. I still have this image of the tiny mast sticking out of the foam at a crazy angle with those funny read sails on it. As soon as we were broached, the tide simply swept us back out of the first breaking seas and things calmed down. Incidentally, that was a bilge keel version ;-) Gerd| 8106|8080|2005-06-12 18:55:32|jim_both|Re: Interior lining|Also called corflute or fluteboard (if in Australia). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Rowland just put me onto a good idea that he picked up ate the wooden > boat show for lining the overhead. You take some of that Corroplast, > which looks like corrugated cardboard , and is used for signs. You just > cut it to shape and contact cement vinyl uphoplstery onto it, then > screw it to your overhead with wooden strips to spread the load.It's > cheap, super light and has a slight insulating factor to it as long as > you seal the ends. The corrugations should run along the curve , or it > will collapse.It looks great,is easy to clean, and unlike plywood, > should last forever and never delaminate or rot. > Brent | 8107|8087|2005-06-12 19:37:25|jim_both|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Hi Seer Also my question. Would you need to run a noisy genset to recharge the batteries? There must be some inefficences (power loss) converting whatever means you have to recharge the batteries versus the raw power of a diesel! Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > One last thought, as most of you know by now..my boat is intended to > > eventually end up spending a LOT of time on the european waterways and > > canals..imagine the difference of near silently 'ghosting' along...as > > opposed to motoring...hmmm:)I mean after all, isn't the absence of > > engine noise the reason we sail as opposed to powerboat in the first > > place? :) > > > > Hi Seer > > Interesting concept. I wonder how long these motors > would survive in a salt-laden atmosphere ? > > Re: spending a LOT of time on the canals .... how are > you planning to recharge the batteries ? > > Colin | 8108|8087|2005-06-12 20:11:09|brentswain38|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Scrapyards pay 10 cents a pound for lead. Try to buy batteries for that. Electric drive is horrendously expensive. You can buy a lot of used diesels and diesel fuel for the price of electric drive. You could probably do a circumnavigation for that. When electric motors start to show up in auto wreckers, it may be practical, but that's at least ten to twenty years away. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:07:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: > > > Sure now, its more complicated, more costly, BUT,,, > > 1. you were going to have a battery anyway, now you have a bunch LOL > > 2. You were going to need electric power anyway, so an inverter was in > > the picture, AND, > > you were gonna need lead ballast anyways. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8109|8091|2005-06-12 20:22:19|brentswain38|Re: back from barbados|For a given hull of my design, twin keels are two feet shallower than the equivalent single keel, and thus the lateral resistance is closer to the surface, greatly reducing tripping action. As was well shown in M wrote: > Some thoughts on twin keels. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_keels.htm > > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8110|8090|2005-06-12 20:23:33|brentswain38|Re: Fw: back from barbados|Looks good. good structural engineering. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Someone was asking about our rudder designs. Here is what we recommend. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/offshore_rudder_and_skeg.htm > > > Greg Elliott > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8111|8091|2005-06-12 20:28:56|brentswain38|Re: back from barbados|My last boat ,a single full length keeler with a single ruder , like Lazy Bones, was light years more prone to broaching than my current boat a twin keeler with a single rudder. While one couldn't expect any steering control with a rudder horizontal like the drawing shows, there may be the equivalent resistance to broaching and increased steering power in following seas with the rudder endplate as one would get with twin rudders. I hope to try this on my boat this summer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Twin rudders > > http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_rudders.htm > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8112|8091|2005-06-12 20:33:23|brentswain38|Re: back from barbados|Good hull balance ( a hull which will not go down in the bows and rise in the stern when it heels) is a major factor in the downwind control which will prevent a broach in the first place. Boats with wide sterns and narrow bows will broach more readily regardless of what their underbody shape is. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi Greg - and WELCOME! back ;-) > > Had a look at your page in twinkeels. Yes, that is _one_ effect, but > I would not go as far in my conclusions as you. > > Although it is true that the fact that the windward keel will stick > out where it should not at this particular moment and helps the > capsize, there are at least 2 other factors that may outweigh this > in my opinion: > > 1 - Bilge keels are usually designed so as to reduce draft, meaning > that they will go less deep than a high aspect fin. Of course, as > the boat heels, the leeward keel will first _increase_ draft and > have a better grip, which you do not want then, but if the bilge > keels are very low-aspect, they should still remain in the perturbed > higher layers and not grip in deep solid water. Also, don't forget > that a single bilge keel usually has _less_ lateral area than it's > single keel equivalent. The angle of the keels change the equation > as well, some designs with near vertical bilge keels would present > different picture. > > 2 - In the initial moment of broaching and heeling far over, the > windward keel might actually leave the water and "get heavier in the > air" as I have heard some people say. Of course it does not, but the > center of buoyancy does move to leeward when the volume of the keel > leaves the water and that does increase the righting moment. If the > keels are of the fat sort, that can help indeed. > > In any case, this is a chaotic and most of all _dynamic_ situation, > and we have to take speed and masses into account, and once you get > to the point where the rig is immersed and acts on the movement, > things get difficult to predict. > > I think that the most important thing is to consider keel/rudder > configurations with regard to their effectiveness in _preventing_ > broaching and that means not have more lateral area than necessary > (no full long keel), and good steering (twin rudders are a plus > there) an generally a hull designed for good control at high speed > when the downhill acceleration starts. On boats with variable > lateral plans like centerboarders or keel/board combination, being > able to lift a board, reduce grip in solid water and move the center > of the lateral plan aft will all help pas well. > > My feeling is that this is indeed one negative aspect of the bilge > keel in specific conditions, and - depending on hull and keel > design - probably a minor one, and I would not go as far as to ban > them from offshore sailing. > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Some thoughts on twin keels. > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_keels.htm > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8113|8113|2005-06-12 20:53:09|jim_both|Broaching|My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago and after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a ferro yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not right itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. Jim| 8114|8087|2005-06-13 04:56:56|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Colin, From all the reading, these motors are not only the most power to weight available, they also appear to be the most efficient, approaching 90 percent!...and, that works both ways, they are also an excellent generator. In response to your question, If I were to go this route, I would also include a diesel generator into the mix,making the boat not a true hybrid, but self sufficient. Since the power requirements are substantially reduced, the generator could be smaller, be isolation mounted and noise/fumes etc. shielded, encapsulated thus substantially reducing noise/vibration/fumes. With exhaust plumbed thru a stainless standpipe to Brent's design, and exiting thru hull underwater, again noise, fumes etc. substantially reduced. Also, the gen motor would be able to relatively quickly recharge the batteries when required. Additional charging systems would include substantial solar panels, and a wind generator. Depending on the proportion between moving, and lounging in some interesting little village, and the degree to which you would use oil lamps, and sample the shoreside cuisine :), I would think the need to fire up the genny to recharge, might be substantially reduced. Additionally, in populated areas, staying at the local marina overnight (required in many areas) would pose the opportunity of shoreside power for both overnight use and recharging. In those times where sustained heavy power draw might be expected, i.e. upriver surging or bucking headwinds etc., the generator could be fired up to so as to provide the power required. What i would envision most, however is those moments where sailing conditions are not ideal, i.e. you need to point just a few degrees higher, the wind just isn't quite strong enough to get you to your favored cruising speed unassisted, and, you want to show off LOL. At normal cruising speeds, even very slight amounts of additional thrust provided by the electric motor would result in solid gains in boat speed, without the negatives normally associated with firing up the aux. This system would also enable you to 'ghost' around intriquing waters/sea and land creatures etc. much much less intrusively. As i ponder this further, I find I'm more intrigued with the idea. One additional thought re upriver travel. Any river current(heheh) when anchored could be used to recharge the battery either by letting the prop freewheel (these motors and controllers are designed for regeneration when 'driven' as opposed to 'driving') or by using one of Brent's towed gens, So, upriver by day, and recharging by night :) Again, there will be the onboard diesel generator to handle peak loads and fill in any gaps the solar and wind gen's can't meet. It should be noted that without any requirement for direct coupling of the diesel to the shaft, and its smaller required size, it can be mounted wherever boat balance, aesthetic,and isolation criteria are best satisfied. Similarly, the small size and light weight of the motor/motors, and lack of need for a transmission, would mean they could be installed in a very small space, require a much shorter shaft, again meaning less intrusion into the living space, and opening up additional design options. In my design, the whole thing could be installed under the aft cabin berth for instance. Panda/Fischer of Germany has a system something like that which I envision, tho of course, being a commercial setup, the costs are astronomical. I don't see any reason we can't duplicate the basic design with do it yourself materials and engineering however. As to corrosion resistance, the electric motors require no water cooling, so presumably could be isolated/shielded from the the damp conditions often found in most engine bays. Aircooling is required so careful consideration to ducting could keep the motor space dry and cool. I am researching their susceptibility to corrosion, will update when i've reached any conclusions. One last thought, when and if fuel cell technology breaks into the feasible/cost effective camp, with this design you'd be all set to simply plug one into the system. Ok all the caveats... 1. Battery size, design, location and SECURE installation would have to be carefully planned but since we're building from scratch, what the hell, not a big problem. 2. You'd want to spend some money getting substantially OVERSIZED tinned marine wiring for the boat as going essentially 'electric' means overbuilding as much as feasible. 3. ALL electrical connections and exposed wiring is going to want special vibration and corrosion resisting treatment. Over the years I've found the simple electric glue gun squirting a substantial layer of insulating 'glue' over all exposed connections to work absolute wonders in this area. Easy to just melt off again, it essentially ends the terminal corrosion so widely seen. Used to have hella problems with trailering powerboats in and out of saltwater, the lights wouldn't last for chit, until my brother got tired of it and came up with this simple but amazingly effective fix. 4. All wiring runs should be carefully planned both for security against movement and the resulting abrasion shorting,and for ease of access should additions or replacement become necessary. Again a simple matter of design planning. Like I've posted before, an electric galley, properly set up, offers everything except the instant on/off of gas ranges, which can be more than compensated for by the incredibly cheap yet effective microwaves on the market today. My own planning is to use a ceramic 'elementless' cooktop set into the galley counter, one of the glass "Galloping Gourmet" type air circulation ovens commonly seen (I've cooked 20 lb turkeys in this thing and everything you do comes out GREAT, and is cooked far far faster than in a normal oven, plus you can see the status of what your cooking by just looking (sic pun i know) as opposed to opening up the oven and letting all that heat spill out into what is probably already a fairly warm living space. These along with a 'hot' plate/hot mug type thing installed at the interior helm station, and the aforementioned microwave tucked up in a galley rack at eye level (again for inspection) and perhaps even a stainless 'toaster' oven, will make it easy to silently and safely (I just don't like gas on a boat, or carrying around those bottles for refilling) provide for some serious culinary endeavors :) Lastly, and most importantly, its the serenity of sailing that has always appealed to me- something the firing up of the normal aux engine instantly and totally destroys. The option of meeting the same needs with near silent and environmentally non intrusive electric power is seductively enticing. Sure there is some additional cost involved, but it seems that at 325.00 per motor, and whatever a suitable controller could be found for...this becomes doable. Oh,forgot to mention one other thing. I see no reason why one of the 'on demand' type controllers commercially available, could not be employed so that the auxilliary diesel generator is not auto started/stopped when heavy electrical demand occurs/fades, such as the captain requesting sustained high power manuevering assistance from the Etek motor/motors, at the same time the 'mate' fires up the full galley for the afternoon's 'feast' at the sailing day's end. :) I'm liking this idea more and more. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > One last thought, as most of you know by now..my boat is intended to > > eventually end up spending a LOT of time on the european waterways and > > canals..imagine the difference of near silently 'ghosting' along...as > > opposed to motoring...hmmm:)I mean after all, isn't the absence of > > engine noise the reason we sail as opposed to powerboat in the first > > place? :) > > > > Hi Seer > > Interesting concept. I wonder how long these motors > would survive in a salt-laden atmosphere ? > > Re: spending a LOT of time on the canals .... how are > you planning to recharge the batteries ? > > Colin | 8115|8087|2005-06-13 05:02:40|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Jim, I would definitely want a diesel genset on board, but being smaller and remotely isolation mounted, it could be made far far less intrusive than the more normal auxillary, something akin to the enclosed gensets on the upscale motorhomes. Given solar and wind generated use, it would also most likely not need to be run as often. Inefficiencies, well i dunno. The average diesel is something like 30 percent efficient. These electrics are near 90. A genset is also designed to operate and run at its most efficient rpm, again added efficiency, and, being smaller would presumably use less fuel. Again, for me, the MAIN thing is to be able to effectively 'motorsail' without the 'diesel motor' :) If it's even CLOSe, its worth consideration to me. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Seer > Also my question. Would you need to run a noisy genset to recharge > the batteries? There must be some inefficences (power loss) > converting whatever means you have to recharge the batteries versus > the raw power of a diesel! > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > One last thought, as most of you know by now..my boat is intended > to > > > eventually end up spending a LOT of time on the european > waterways and > > > canals..imagine the difference of near silently 'ghosting' > along...as > > > opposed to motoring...hmmm:)I mean after all, isn't the absence of > > > engine noise the reason we sail as opposed to powerboat in the > first > > > place? :) > > > > > > > Hi Seer > > > > Interesting concept. I wonder how long these motors > > would survive in a salt-laden atmosphere ? > > > > Re: spending a LOT of time on the canals .... how are > > you planning to recharge the batteries ? > > > > Colin | 8116|8087|2005-06-13 05:21:55|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Brent, there's no denying you are right on here, thus my disclaimer on the original post. :) I warned you to scan on to the next topic :) heheheh Batteries are expensive, however, the commercial golf cart battery setup I had on the Falcon was substantially less than the more normal marine what is it "8-D"'s? And, my battery bank produced far more amp/hours for the same interior space. Batteries can be purchased thru your local friendly golf course 'cart shop" by taggin on one of his orders if you are nice :) hehehe. With proper management these hd deep cycle batteries (that's kind of a misnomer tho, batteries shouldn't really be discharged to less than 70 percent or so of their capacity on a recurring basis), can last upwards of 4 to 5 years. Also, the motors I'm referring to are now available for 325.00 each. That's hella cheaper than solomon technologies 8k for essentially the same power!!! and I save the cost, noise, clunkiness and possible cruise ruining failure of a transmission. Their mean time between failure rating is huge...they have one moving part. Being able to simply turn a dial and get smooth and instant full thrust forward or backwards must be experienced to be appreciated. Further, the electrics provide full power at essentially the full operating rpm of the motor, thus low speed manuevering becomes FAR more secure, and efficient, something worth my considering for emergency manuevering inside a crowded river lock or other confined space. This does require some rethinking of your prop selection as now you can turn as big as prop as you can get to fit (thus further increasing efficiency) and as slow as you want. It's also easy to get some shock absorption built into the system. Just use appropriately sized vbelts and pulleys to the propshaft. Since we want to turn a large prop slowly, I wonder if there might be a way to use a composite prop, thus further lessening the loads on the shaft and bearings etc. Again, I do not dispute added cost and complexity, however, for me, this might make some sense. I'm only just beginning to really think it thru. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Scrapyards pay 10 cents a pound for lead. Try to buy batteries for > that. Electric drive is horrendously expensive. You can buy a lot of > used diesels and diesel fuel for the price of electric drive. You could > probably do a circumnavigation for that. When electric motors start to > show up in auto wreckers, it may be practical, but that's at least ten > to twenty years away. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:07:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > Sure now, its more complicated, more costly, BUT,,, > > > 1. you were going to have a battery anyway, now you have a bunch LOL > > > 2. You were going to need electric power anyway, so an inverter was > in > > > the picture, AND, > > > > you were gonna need lead ballast anyways. > > > > -- > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8117|8091|2005-06-13 05:37:47|seeratlas|Re: back from barbados|Greg, One other point, in all my years I can't remember a report of a twin keeler being rolled, much less having such an event blamed on the keels. Course I havn't spent a lot of time in waters that twin keelers frequent in large numbers. Still, I did read alot. Do you know of one? Further, unfortunately I've had some time out in BIG water in BIG weather,I'm talking waves in the 50 to 70 foot range.... In my most humble personal opinion (these conditions WILL humble you , trust me) any one who would attempt to lie ahull is asking for death. Even if the hull survived, you would get beat to death by being tossed around inside. I managed to survive by running off, under power and hydraulic steering assist, while towing a long warp astern. When the top of the waves crested behind me, then broke roaring down from above, to have tried to lay ahull, or lie bow into those waves, would have been like trying to anchor on the Columbia River bar. As it was I often took 10 to 15 foot high boiling 'surf', for that is what it was like, ovr the stern. The only conditions I can imagine trying to lie ahull or head into a severe sea would be where the alternative was to crash onto a lee shore, and in some conditions, and with a steel boat, I might very well chose the latter. I would still, if any possibility existed,prefer to attempt to turn tail and run, even at an extreme angle, to try and clear whatever shore posed a danger, than try to lie ahull in any real weather, but that's just me. In more moderate conditions, or when you feel the need for a quick run to the galley to fix lunch, well maybe :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > For a given hull of my design, twin keels are two feet shallower than > the equivalent single keel, and thus the lateral resistance is closer > to the surface, greatly reducing tripping action. As was well shown in > M be safe in real bad conditions is with a large sea anchor or drogue , > holding either bow or stern to the sea, and never allowing ones > vessel to get beam on th the sea. I prefer stern to the sea, as bow to > the sea a sloop tends to tack around a bit, putting a lot more strain > on the gear and occasionaly coming more beam on to the sea. > I've many thousands of miles of deep sea sailing in my twin keeler , > and would not consider anything but a twin keelewr if I ever built > another boat for myself. Others who have circumnavigated in one of my > twin keelers feel the same way. > Greg, what's your personal offshore experience in twin keelers? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Some thoughts on twin keels. > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/twin_keels.htm > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8118|8113|2005-06-13 05:53:44|denis buggy|Re: Broaching|dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful if you could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran design as all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim_both To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago and after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a ferro yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not right itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. Jim To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8119|8113|2005-06-13 06:35:22|jim_both|Re: Broaching|Hi Denis; I'm sure trimaran designs has come someway over the last forty years, but at this time Piver was an innovator with his designs and construction methods. There were a few problems; his boats wouldn't point because they were so light the waves kept knocking the bow(s) off the wind. The other problem was that they could slide down a wave and tend to dig in because the bows were very fine, so you had to be careful not to broach. The other thing is that they were so stable there was no give when hit by a gust to wind. They dealt with wind gusts by getting a spurt of speed. They didn't spill wind out of the sails and the rigging was like a tightly-wound spring. Scary! On the other hand when conditions were right they would surf, the rudder would hum, and they went like a bat out of hell. Exhilarating, but not the sort of boat we wanted to be on when too far out from shore.... In those days the only way we could get help was a WWII hand-operated SOS generator with an antenna carried aloft on a ballon. Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful if you could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran design as all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim_both > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching > > > My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago and > after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a ferro > yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not right > itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. > Jim > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8120|8113|2005-06-13 10:50:32|seeratlas|Re: Broaching|First re Tri's, The problem with the std marconi rig on a tri or cat is that since they don't 'heel' in the same way as a monohull, with increased wind, the rig doesn't 'depower'. I wonder if a switch to a Wharram gaff wingsail type rig wouldn't be alot safer, as well as easier to handle? They reportedly have had some great success in British racing circles with the design, and it has held up well in 'big weather', 'spilling' the 'extra unwanted' wind at the top of the sail as the gaff slews off with the gusts. This would seem in keeping with the basic design problem inherent in all cats and tri's, ie., their form stability which presents an all or nothing situation resulting in either extremely fast forward speed, or capsize, with a knife edge dividing line inbetween. This is, of course, critical stuff as a capsize in a cat or tri of any size may very well be a non recoverable event, and that's assuming you're still on the boat to even attempt it. If i was sailing a cat or tri and weather came up, I'd want to be able to depower the rig 'LIKE RIGHT NOW".. The Wharram gaff setup lets you just loose the halyards and the whole thing comes straight to the deck, even under wind load, no need to round up first. Alternatively, if its just intermittent gusts, you can 'ride' the peak halyard merely slacking away with the gusts so as to spill wind out of the top third of the sail where it is generating the most heeling moment anyway, or just dropping the gaff altogether cutting the effective sail size down 40 percent or so. With a few modifications, its the rig I've decided on for my schooner as since it requires no mast track, or gaff 'hoops', std. aluminum thick walled pipe makes a perfect mast. You know i wonder if a lot of the broaching problem results from the design ethic that has evolved that says to keep from getting your azz sued, you need to design a production boat so that when over powered, it ALWAYS rounds up into the wind, and in some cases seems to want to do that under almost all conditions. Tho i'm no designer, my experience jives with Brent's that fat butted,fine bowed boats will slew around to windward at the first real puff. One of the attractions of my intended schooner rig is the ease at which I can change the balance of the boat at the drop of a hat, er sail :) Being able to adjust sail size at the extremes of the boat gives me a LOT of balance options for a LOT of varying conditions. In the aforementioned storms, in order to keep the Falcon's 7' flared "bluewater" bow headed downwind, I had to crawl out on the foredeck and set a small but very heavy stormsail on a 'jumper' the designer, Stan Huntingford, had forced me to have built at nearly gunpoint, advising that "there may come a time....". He could not have been more right for as the boat surfed down the face of those waves, it would slam into the back of the wave in front, slewing off slightly to one side, the whitewater now close behind, would rush up and smack the ship on the stern quarter, heeling her over and trying to push her into a broach but the storm sail would catch, drag her forward by the nose, straighten her up as we climbed up the next wave then as we neared the crest, we would start to surge forward just about the time the wave top behind would crest like a mountain top, the top would fall forward into a boiling mass in hot pursuit as we took off surfing down the face once again. Once the inital terror subsided and I gained some confidence in the boats ability to survive, I found that WITH the storm trysail, I could greatly ease the stress on the ship and crew (me) by angling off down the face slightly much as a board surfer would do, straightening off at the bottom so as to take the surf aft only slightly on the stern quarter. Over time, this was only possible due my brother's decision to install for me an oversized Wagner hydraulic autopilot system which worked flawlessly over the many many hours that particular storm lasted and several others of similar severity as well. The fatigue and stress of hand steering under those conditions after only a few hours has convinced me that Brent's jogglestick steering and inside autotiller arrangement makes HUGE sense in life threatening conditions and I am all about survival. I'm a firm believer in being able to adapt the handling of any boat to the then current sea conditions as I am aware of only a single report of anyone being able to accomplish the converse- and that report dates back some 2000 years :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Denis; > > I'm sure trimaran designs has come someway over the last forty years, > but at this time Piver was an innovator with his designs and > construction methods. There were a few problems; his boats wouldn't > point because they were so light the waves kept knocking the bow(s) > off the wind. The other problem was that they could slide down a wave > and tend to dig in because the bows were very fine, so you had to be > careful not to broach. The other thing is that they were so stable > there was no give when hit by a gust to wind. They dealt with wind > gusts by getting a spurt of speed. They didn't spill wind out of the > sails and the rigging was like a tightly-wound spring. Scary! > > On the other hand when conditions were right they would surf, the > rudder would hum, and they went like a bat out of hell. Exhilarating, > but not the sort of boat we wanted to be on when too far out from > shore.... In those days the only way we could get help was a WWII > hand-operated SOS generator with an antenna carried aloft on a ballon. > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful if you > could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran design as > all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim_both > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching > > > > > > My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago > and > > after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a > ferro > > yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not > right > > itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8121|8091|2005-06-13 17:14:43|nortje_wynand|Re: back from barbados|The only time I saw spreaders in the water, believe it or not, was coming into the harbour around the breakwater. It happend like this. I was part of a delivery crew and we delivered a 40ft CC Lavranos sloop from Port Elizabeth (east coast) to Port Owen (west coast) of South Africa. The weather window for a week was bad but we had to go. We motorsailed in bad weather, and the weather build up to gale conditions as we got close to Mosselbay. To top it all, the Agulhas current was in a bad mood as well, and as many know, this is the breeding ground of rouge and gaint waves. We decided that is is best to seek shelter at Mossel bay harbour as it was getting late and we had engine problems (about 21h00). As we got to the entrance of the harbour, we could see people standing on the warf in the spreadlights waiting our arrival as we radiod ahead. Not even Neptune would try to sail into this harbour without an engine, in a gale at night. But not old Graham, he was still from the old school where men was still men. As we rounded the breakwater to the shouting and jeering of the crowd on the jetty, we went into a spectacular broach and just then, a furious breaking wave hit us sideways, flipping the boat right over past 90 degrees and nearly rolled us over. The impact of the wave was so intense, it knocked the toilet clean off it's mounting. The boat righted itself, luckily with no damage to the rig and old Graham sailed here right up to the dock - perfect. All I can say is that we needed a change of underwear..... As for twin keels - nothing beats it. But I dislike bilge keels. Wynand| 8122|8091|2005-06-13 23:05:35|Michael Casling|Re: back from barbados|I am in basic agreement with what you have said. The model of your 36 that I have shows a forward section that looks like it would like to lift rather than submerge, and I think bows that tend to bury are at the heart of the problem. I also notice that light weight dinghys do not broach, so weight for a given length must be a factor. The burying bows I think would be on heavy displacement boats, and likely why these type of boats tend to have full keels to try and help with the broaching problem. So I think too much weight is a large part of the problem and as you suggest there is not a lot that can be done to fix it. The latest Harberg Rassey 34 is finer in the bow and wider in the stern, but the stem at the waterline is a bit further forward. The displacement is moderate so they must feel that it is okay with this boat. Many of the lighter boats have finer bows and wider sterns, but cruising boats by there very nature are heavier. I just can not see the reason for overly heavy as it just sinks the hull deeper. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: back from barbados Good hull balance ( a hull which will not go down in the bows and rise in the stern when it heels) is a major factor in the downwind control which will prevent a broach in the first place. Boats with wide sterns and narrow bows will broach more readily regardless of what their underbody shape is. Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8123|8087|2005-06-14 03:03:50|Alex Christie|Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|Would it be preferable to have the motor directly connected to the prop shaft inline, or belted? With a belted system, could you put two on one shaft? Three? Or put one direct, and belt the others? (have one belted motor on standby). I read once about a trip someone did with a diesel which was belted to prop shaft, and it was one belt replacement after another, quite ridiculous. Yet we have belts on motorcycles, skidoos, and all sorts of industrial applications and they last and last, which makes me wonder about the set up in the aforementioned trip, perhaps not properly engineered (it wouldn't be the first time an amateur like us has taken half-measures on something like that!). The Solomon Technologies motor is interesting because two motors are pancaked together, but I agree about the price, it stinks! The $325 motor is a bargain for the experimenters among us, is brushless, and uses rare earth magnets. I don't know if it is sealed like the Solomon motor is, but at $325 you could easily afford spares. The price difference is freakish, to say the least, and I'm so curious I'd like to pop one in and try it for fun, as we do not have a diesel yet. It would be enough to get us out of the harbour, even on very few batteries (ie don't use it to motor around, just wind-jam from there). Alex| 8124|8087|2005-06-14 05:02:28|sae140|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Seer a couple of thoughts re: electric drives. If you have difficulty sourcing heavy drive cable - you might want to consider using smaller diameter welding cable. It's flexible, cheap enough, and easily sourced. You could always smother the ends with silicone rubber to prevent corrosion after lug terminals are soldered on. I checked out the B&S site and was a little dismayed at the power output of the outboard engine which uses this motor. You may need to couple at least 2 or 3 to your shaft ? Colin| 8125|8091|2005-06-14 05:12:50|sae140|Re: back from barbados|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: ..... > > As for twin keels - nothing beats it. But I dislike bilge keels. > > Wynand I'm not sure what the distinction is here - perhaps you could expand on your understanding of the terms ? In my circles these two terms are used more-or-less interchangeably - both being distinct from the inefficient flat bilge *plates* which were favoured back around the 60's, but which are no longer in fashion. Colin| 8126|8087|2005-06-14 06:31:14|sae140|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Seer for a moment I caught a dose of your enthusiasm for electric drives, and downloaded some spec sheets from the B&S site. I hate to be a party-pooper, but at 2000 rpm one of these motors pulls 150A @ 48V to generate somewhere between 3 and 4 HP - that's the same power as a middle-range Seagull outboard engine. So let's say we need 3 of these motors to drive a big boat. That's 450A @ 48V - or 450AH for one hours's motoring. Assuming you allow your batteries to discharge by 25% before re-charging, you'll need a bank of batteries of some 1,800 AH - at 48V. Using 12V batteries, that's a cool 7,200 AH bank of lead - and that's for just one hour of motoring. Is this then really viable ? Regret this news Colin| 8127|8087|2005-06-14 07:32:37|Carl Volkwein|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|What about one of those small electric trolling motors instead? And running the B&S generating engine while "motoring" sae140 wrote: Seer a couple of thoughts re: electric drives. If you have difficulty sourcing heavy drive cable - you might want to consider using smaller diameter welding cable. It's flexible, cheap enough, and easily sourced. You could always smother the ends with silicone rubber to prevent corrosion after lug terminals are soldered on. I checked out the B&S site and was a little dismayed at the power output of the outboard engine which uses this motor. You may need to couple at least 2 or 3 to your shaft ? Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8128|8128|2005-06-14 07:43:56|edward_stoneuk|Using self drilling/ tapping screws for fixing lining strips|Does any one have any experience or information in using self tapping or self drilling/tapping screws for fixing lining strips and furniture to steel tabs and angle welded inside the hull? It saves drilling holes. Also for screwing down water tank tops. Regards, Ted| 8129|8087|2005-06-14 08:19:38|seeratlas|Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|There was an article wherein the guy had put it into a smallish dory type boat by attaching the etek to a homemade adapter to the lower end of an old outboard, and then later in the same series he installed it by belting to an inboard shaft in a shallow displacement motor cruiser for lack of a better description. On the belts, I can think of a lot of machinery, motorcycles etc. that run a lot more than 15 hp thru belts, so there MUST be an effective way to do it :) Concerns are going to be torque loading etc. One advantage you have over the diesel belt to shaft thing, is that the power from the electric is always smoothly applied, especially when going from forward to reverse, so you won't have the 'BANG' shockloads you get with a std. diesel. This should make a heck of diff in longevity. For my own purposes I don't see why a very short shaft could not be run into a fixxed thrustplate with heavy bearings, then two of the Eteks belted opposite of each other so as to even out the side pressures on the shaft.Either some sort of electric clutch such as seen on big car AC units, or simple levered belt tensioners could be employed to disengage one of the units should that be required. I was going to investigate the v belt setup for the simple reason of shock loading should the prop hit something. The inherent 'give' of the belt should be just the ticket. The other alternative would be to use the cogged belts off the big Harley Davidson's. Would take some calcs to figure out the ratios and then find/make the cogged pulleys, but if they'll work on a gear shift 1000 lb Harley with two fat people on it for thousands of miles, they should turn a prop ok :) heheheh. As to the corrosion problem, I'm thinking isolated "motor compartment" , in my case probably under the aft berth, into which fresh air is pumped thru the motors (the 325.00 ones have a shrouding for forced air cooling already on :). Assuming good shaft bearings (tho the 'box' could be 'upshaft' from the cutlass so as to eliminate the inevitable drips from the actual motor compartment) it should be possible to thus keep the motors themselves cool and dry thus minimizing corrosion problems as much as possible. Lastly, one fellow noted that using the electric motors is a whole new experience as for the first time he could now faintly hear the sounds of the shaft turning, and the faint bearing noises. He opined that any problems with the prop or shaft would now be immediately noticeable thus likely to be taken careof before they became a major problem leading to expensive repair. Remember, there are two options on this. First is, for maximum sailing speed you're going to want to run a two bladed prop which you can stop when lined up with the aperature in the skeg/rudder. If your rig is set up so that you have quick visual access to the shaft, simply marking same will make this procedure quick and easy. Any kind of a band or disc brake will do. Also, for those times when the wind is in abundance and you have more than enough to power the hull, you can freewheel the shaft and pump electricity back into the batteries as the motors are designed to double as generators :) There are several controllers readily available to do this as 'regenerative braking' on golfcarts was one of the design specs on these motors. This also means that if you anchor in a location with any significant current, you can be charging your batteries at anchor. Prop dimensions and pitch will require close attention i think, but as yet I see no reason why this system will not work. The lack of a big diesel located in the tail of the boat and Being able to put the batteries wherever you want will open up some interesting interior options. You will also have a LOT of power available to think about installing an electric motor for your windlass and/or a captstan for 360 degree pulling. last thing, seems to me that characteristics of the dc motor would be perfect for low speed maneuvering in and out of harbors as nearly full torque is available at very low rpm. This should VASTLY improve starting, stopping, backing and turning, and if you have power at the dock and are mostly daysailing, I would think you'd be set without any aux gen set at all. dunno alex, i keep working thru this , and it keeps looking better and better. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Would it be preferable to have the motor directly connected to the prop > shaft inline, or belted? With a belted system, could you put two on > one shaft? Three? Or put one direct, and belt the others? (have one > belted motor on standby). I read once about a trip someone did with a > diesel which was belted to prop shaft, and it was one belt replacement > after another, quite ridiculous. Yet we have belts on motorcycles, > skidoos, and all sorts of industrial applications and they last and > last, which makes me wonder about the set up in the aforementioned > trip, perhaps not properly engineered (it wouldn't be the first time an > amateur like us has taken half-measures on something like that!). The > Solomon Technologies motor is interesting because two motors are > pancaked together, but I agree about the price, it stinks! The $325 > motor is a bargain for the experimenters among us, is brushless, and > uses rare earth magnets. I don't know if it is sealed like the Solomon > motor is, but at $325 you could easily afford spares. The price > difference is freakish, to say the least, and I'm so curious I'd like > to pop one in and try it for fun, as we do not have a diesel yet. It > would be enough to get us out of the harbour, even on very few > batteries (ie don't use it to motor around, just wind-jam from there). > > Alex | 8131|8087|2005-06-14 08:39:55|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Colin, Let me check those numbers, my initial calcs were substantially different. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Seer > > for a moment I caught a dose of your enthusiasm for > electric drives, and downloaded some spec sheets from > the B&S site. > > I hate to be a party-pooper, but at 2000 rpm one of > these motors pulls 150A @ 48V to generate somewhere > between 3 and 4 HP - that's the same power as a > middle-range Seagull outboard engine. > > So let's say we need 3 of these motors to drive a big > boat. > That's 450A @ 48V - or 450AH for one hours's motoring. > Assuming you allow your batteries to discharge by 25% > before re-charging, you'll need a bank of batteries of > some 1,800 AH - at 48V. Using 12V batteries, that's a > cool 7,200 AH bank of lead - and that's for just one > hour of motoring. > > Is this then really viable ? > > Regret this news > > Colin | 8132|8087|2005-06-14 09:32:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Seer, www.fptgroup.com has downloads on designing and sizing belt drives. Regards, Ted| 8133|8087|2005-06-14 10:52:46|sae140|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Colin, > Let me check those numbers, my initial calcs were substantially > different. :) > > seer > Whoops - a brain fart ! Re-checking, it looks like I'm out by a factor of x 2. So either halve the lead, or same lead for 2hrs run time. There are 2 files on the B&S site: EtekCurves.pdf (c. 130K) and Etek.pdf (c. 4.4Mb). The smaller file has just the curves, and it's not clear (to me) what voltage etc is employed. It's also not helped by the scale being changed on just the right-hand graph (the only one I looked at !). The larger file is much clearer - the graphs even have titles (!). The 2000 rpm I referred to is full scale at 24V - not 48V. I really hope I'm wrong about the amount of lead required - but it won't hurt to check - better to discover any gremlins at this early stage. Colin| 8134|8087|2005-06-14 12:19:14|put_to_sea|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|I have been studying this electric drive thing for more than a year and here are some of my conclusions and thoughts. The energy density of batteries is very low so to make the system work you have to maximize efficiency in your whole drive system - this means large diameter, slow turning prop powered by an efficient motor that is geared down through an efficient reduction system. You cannot afford efficiency losses anywhere in the system. You must run at less than one times the square root of the waterline length in order to get power consumption down to a feasible level. So you can run for a long time at 3 knots but at much greater speed, the endurance is very short. This is not necessarily bad. With the electric drive, you can have great bursts of speed available immediately for a short period when needed but for traveling any distance at all you will need to slow down. Regeneration from the prop seems to be over rated. In order to generate meaningful amounts of energy, the prop must be very large and boat speed or current if anchored must be close to hull speed. Such a large prop will have considerable drag while sailing, but if you have a lot of wind, it may not be a problem. Alternatively, if the wind is light, you can add just enough power to the prop to eliminate its drag. I have not determined how much power that would be. I have been considering the electric drive but the problem is that it is like every other convenience, one thing builds on another and complexities keep building, and pretty soon, you no longer have an inexpensive simple cruising boat. I am still undecided. Amos| 8135|8128|2005-06-14 12:32:26|Wesley Cox|Re: Using self drilling/ tapping screws for fixing lining strips|I have no experience with self-tapping screws in this particular application but have used literally 10's of thousands of them in other endeavors. They hold well but only very light loads per screw, relative to bolts of comparable size -- strength through multiplicity. They are not favorable for repeated use in an app. requiring removal and re-installation. The female threads tend to break after repeated use and sooner than later won't bind. They are also very susceptible to vibration and corrosion. I've seen them completely release their grip (apparently) due to relatively minor corrosion. Hope this helps. edward_stoneuk wrote: > Does any one have any experience or information in using self tapping > or self drilling/tapping screws for fixing lining strips and furniture > to steel tabs and angle welded inside the hull? It saves drilling > holes. Also for screwing down water tank tops. > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > | 8136|8070|2005-06-14 12:54:56|Puck III|Re: eBook : " Blade "|Hi Gerd , I just uploaded a new file : Blade.pdf I read the file with ease as an eBook , just an PDF file , but I am having problems downloading it , from the Files Yahoo Groups Files incompatible , or is it me with my Apple ?? If we could make it work , it would be a great way to share info in the Groups . Do we have a computerexpert in the Group ?? I remember that in the old Groups format , still working for french Group , it was possible to send a Pic in attachment wich appeared in place of the publicity pic , but that does not seems to work anymore . I sure wonder if we use Yahoo Groups at it's full potential , why not look deeper into it ? Thanks for help & comments Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi Ben - here is what I think ;-) > > Yes, I read tons of ebooks myself, I have had almost every model of > PDA over the years, old casio organizers, Psions, Palm, Sharps, you > name it... and always mostly for reading. At the moment I re-read > Slocum's Liberdade on my pocketpc. I always have about 10 or 15 > books on it, and I have a collection of about 1000 e-books by now. > > There a lots of files for free on the net, some of them even legal ;- > ) > > For example there is a HUGE collection of mostly classic public > domain stuff at the Gutenberg Project http://www.gutenberg.org/, > more than 15.000 books and counting. I picked up the complete > Honblower, complete Joseph Conrad, all Slocum etc for free there. > > For voyaging this is great, a pocketpc lets you take tons of books > at no weight, and serves as a gps, navigator etc, for peanuts. > > But what bugs me really, is the price of commercial e-books. > > When I was a young man, I wrote 2 books for kids and actually > managed to find a publisher. The Author (me...) got then 10 % of the > shop-price, with the rest going to the distribution (up to 50, 60 %) > the production had to be financed up front (by the publisher if you > were lucky) and only a very a small part remains with the publisher. > > Now, when I see an e-book that has alsmost no distribution cost, no > printing etc, being sold for basically the same price as a "real" > book in the shop, I am not buying... actually the e-book version is > a side product of the electronic preparation for printing anyway. > > Plus the fact that Digital Rights Management as practised by most > publishers does not even give me the book but in reality only gives > me the "right to read it's content", because I can't sell it or lend > it to a friend. > > A pdf file for 17 US ??? Pay for the printing on top of that? No > thanks. Give me an e-book that cost about 20 % of a paper book and > that I can lend to a friend, and I will buy like crazy ;-) > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi All , its of Topic , on the other hand I wanted to share how > > easy that informative eBook came to me . > > I was so impressed with its content I went to my nearest > > copycenter and had it printed out and now I am equaly happy > > with both options : electronic PDF pages & a pretty book. > > http://www.mkt-info.com/fairhavens/ is the direct link. > > Just wondering what you all think of this editing system that > > feeds the boating community with info & entertainment. > > Please tell me what you all think. > > > > Old Ben | 8137|8087|2005-06-14 13:10:48|Michael Casling|Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|On a sensible motorcycle the crankshaft and the rear wheel are going the same direction, and the chain or belt sprockets are very solidly attached. So you would need to put the electric motor alongside the shaft and use two scure bearings on the shaft. The shaft would have to be quite substantial to stop it bending. A gear box behind the motor would change the configuration. I am gonna run a diesel for some time yet. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct? Would it be preferable to have the motor directly connected to the prop shaft inline, or belted? With a belted system, could you put two on one shaft? Three? Or put one direct, and belt the others? (have one belted motor on standby). I read once about a trip someone did with a diesel which was belted to prop shaft, and it was one belt replacement after another, quite ridiculous. Yet we have belts on motorcycles, skidoos, and all sorts of industrial applications and they last and last, which makes me wonder about the set up in the aforementioned trip, perhaps not properly engineered (it wouldn't be the first time an amateur like us has taken half-measures on something like that!). The Solomon Technologies motor is interesting because two motors are pancaked together, but I agree about the price, it stinks! The $325 motor is a bargain for the experimenters among us, is brushless, and uses rare earth magnets. I don't know if it is sealed like the Solomon motor is, but at $325 you could easily afford spares. The price difference is freakish, to say the least, and I'm so curious I'd like to pop one in and try it for fun, as we do not have a diesel yet. It would be enough to get us out of the harbour, even on very few batteries (ie don't use it to motor around, just wind-jam from there). Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8138|8087|2005-06-14 14:17:23|dreemer1962|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|It seems that most of you interested in the electric's have very high expectations of such a system, which adds considerably to the costs and complexity. Did any one consider minimalistic approach? Going back to the old fashioned concept of minimum power. Using engine just to enter or leave the harbor? Something as powering for the maximum of about 45 - 60 minutes at the "speed" of 2 - 3 knots and recharging during the sailing? Milan| 8139|8087|2005-06-14 15:25:53|denis buggy|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|dear amos a lot of work has been done in this area by diesel /electric locomotives and by ww2 and current submarine technology which is the most widespread use of maritime diesel electrics . there must be good research available somewhere , I would guess your voltage must rise well above 24volts to get some efficiency and if you could avoid belts you will avoid early bearing wear, and belt tension can be a science all of its own if you could mount motors in line in series or bolt multiable motors to a transfer gearbox you may have more reliability , however if you transplant the workings /switchgear/batteries from a forklift you now have all your wiring done and the contacts and motor matched to the power supply as dc low voltage switchgear will melt if not properly specked , the lower your voltage and the higher your current the hotter your switchgear/wiring will run . you can sometimes pick up a good forklift for nothing as the cost of replacing the special batteries is much greater than the value of the fork lift and I have watched their owners pour gallons of acid ( yes gallons) into them on a regular basis as they display an astonishing thirst for the stuff , the other cheerful thing you must be aware of is this will call for a large amount of lead acid batteries which will need to be mounted low and the acid fumes from a charging/discharging battery will rot your head and boat , as they age expect a constant fog to rival cherbynobal and if you turn the hull expect to be showered in acid then burned and finally as the salt water puts out the fire it will make a chlorine bomb to extinguish all life for a hundred meters , otherwise it is a good idea and good luck . Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: put_to_sea To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :) I have been studying this electric drive thing for more than a year and here are some of my conclusions and thoughts. The energy density of batteries is very low so to make the system work you have to maximize efficiency in your whole drive system - this means large diameter, slow turning prop powered by an efficient motor that is geared down through an efficient reduction system. You cannot afford efficiency losses anywhere in the system. You must run at less than one times the square root of the waterline length in order to get power consumption down to a feasible level. So you can run for a long time at 3 knots but at much greater speed, the endurance is very short. This is not necessarily bad. With the electric drive, you can have great bursts of speed available immediately for a short period when needed but for traveling any distance at all you will need to slow down. Regeneration from the prop seems to be over rated. In order to generate meaningful amounts of energy, the prop must be very large and boat speed or current if anchored must be close to hull speed. Such a large prop will have considerable drag while sailing, but if you have a lot of wind, it may not be a problem. Alternatively, if the wind is light, you can add just enough power to the prop to eliminate its drag. I have not determined how much power that would be. I have been considering the electric drive but the problem is that it is like every other convenience, one thing builds on another and complexities keep building, and pretty soon, you no longer have an inexpensive simple cruising boat. I am still undecided. Amos To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8140|8091|2005-06-14 15:35:57|nortje_wynand|Re: back from barbados|Hi Colin, You actually answered for me. But OTOH, if one wants to get technical, placement of the keels can also play a part. Lets define bilge; It is the turn of the hull between the topsides and the bottom. It is also the place above a keel where a boat collects water etc. Now, If a keel is fitted on the "bilge", one can safely say it is a bilge keeler. But then again, a single fin has a bilge above it so it can also be termed as a bilge keel;-) If we use the definition of bilge, I would say a twin keeler have its keels between centreline and bilges of hull. To confuse matters further, twin keels can also be in tandem, behind each other.... Best regards Wynand -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" > wrote: > ..... > > > > As for twin keels - nothing beats it. But I dislike bilge keels. > > > > Wynand > > I'm not sure what the distinction is here - perhaps > you could expand on your understanding of the terms ? > > In my circles these two terms are used more-or-less > interchangeably - both being distinct from the > inefficient flat bilge *plates* which were favoured > back around the 60's, but which are no longer in > fashion. > > Colin | 8141|8087|2005-06-14 16:45:50|put_to_sea|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: dear amos a lot of work has been done in this area by diesel /electric locomotives and by ww2 and current submarine technology which is the most widespread use of maritime diesel electrics . <<< To my way of thinking, running a diesel generator to run the electric motor defeats the whole purpose of using an electric drive. >>> the other cheerful thing you must be aware of is this will call for a large amount of lead acid batteries which will need to be mounted low and the acid fumes from a charging/discharging battery will rot your head and boat , > as they age expect a constant fog to rival cherbynobal and if you turn the hull expect to be showered in acid then burned and finally as the salt water puts out the fire it will make a chlorine bomb to extinguish all life for a hundred meters , otherwise it is a good idea and good luck . Denis <<< True, batteries are a potential trouble spot and considerable planning would be necessary when the boat was being built. I would not use anything but AGM batteries on a boat. In my last post, I said I was undecided about the issue. I should have been more clear and said after much thought, I think a small diesel is most appropriate for me but I have not totally written off the electric drive. Amos| 8142|8142|2005-06-14 16:46:31|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Digest Number 1215|I can sympathise with the desire for a quiet drive on a canal boat because by the end of a day standing over a noisy diesel you become very fatigued. One way around the problem would be a joint drive i.e Have a diesel engine for situations where a high power output is required such as river and estuary use and keep the electric drive for canal use where the speed is in any case limited to 4mph. However there are 2 other options - steam or Ericson hot air engine.I think that these last are claimed to attain diesel engine outputs and efficiency. Cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 8143|8113|2005-06-14 18:03:32|denis buggy|Re: Broaching|thank you Jim and Seer for your valuable advice I note the warning by you both that the hull design is stable but inflexible with wind and will not heel and spill energy when it is really necessary to do so , this brings me to a core question I have been unable to research , if I go ahead and build a steel multi hull which I am told no self-respecting naval architect would design as its wetted surface hull displacement will not allow the kind of speeds normally attainable by a multihull and only a fool would be happy with the results , this fool would be very happy with a stable motorsailor for costal exploration . however I cannot find a source to relate what is the behaviour of a steel multihull , is it less safe than a light displacement multihull or more safe and why , this week in boat international the cover story is the launch of the worlds first tri mega yacht complete with computer controlled hydraulic constantly variable stabilisers / paddles for mooring as its no fun at all playing pool in a busy harbour as you all know well what an upset this can be, if anybody knows what i could expect from a steel multihull i would be greatful . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: jim_both To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Broaching Hi Denis; I'm sure trimaran designs has come someway over the last forty years, but at this time Piver was an innovator with his designs and construction methods. There were a few problems; his boats wouldn't point because they were so light the waves kept knocking the bow(s) off the wind. The other problem was that they could slide down a wave and tend to dig in because the bows were very fine, so you had to be careful not to broach. The other thing is that they were so stable there was no give when hit by a gust to wind. They dealt with wind gusts by getting a spurt of speed. They didn't spill wind out of the sails and the rigging was like a tightly-wound spring. Scary! On the other hand when conditions were right they would surf, the rudder would hum, and they went like a bat out of hell. Exhilarating, but not the sort of boat we wanted to be on when too far out from shore.... In those days the only way we could get help was a WWII hand-operated SOS generator with an antenna carried aloft on a ballon. Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful if you could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran design as all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim_both > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching > > > My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago and > after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a ferro > yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not right > itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. > Jim > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8144|8087|2005-06-14 18:34:02|audeojude|Electric Drives|I have been a member on the yahoo electricboats group for year and a half now.... you should jump over and read some of the posts.. all this has been hashed out and people actually doing it there. having said that :) now im going to jump in and give my opionion :) lol not backed up by any personal experience. :) One or two eteks with a decent sized battery bank able to power at full power about 1 hour (6 or 7 knots) or at half power for about 10 hours... say a 36 ft boat at 3 to 4 knts for ten hours on battery. Then have a desiel generator able to crack out enough power to run the motor directly at half power continusly or if your feeling frisky one that can push it at full power. You end up with a big generator but still smaller engine than you probably would have had driving the boat directly. The engine will always run at constant speed therefore in its most efficient power range. Better use on the engine and more fuel efficient. The big thing to me is that under 90 % of your ussage it will be very quiet and smooth. Instant forward and reverse. No worring if the engine is going to crank. Because the engine is not tied to a prop shaft you can put it anywhere you want. The other idea I have had is a powerfull engine or two of them in pods that are pivoted over the side into the water or slid down into the water on the rear transom. Kinda like a minkota on steriods.. advantages is that no thru hull for prop shaft. No prop in water when sailing. No space inside the boat at all taken up by prop shaft or engines. I have bought my first small minkota to try this on my 21 ft santana. I am going to mount two of them on the transom on slides that they can go up and down on. Should have adjustable depth for the props from about 2.5 ft below transom to all the way out of the water. It is a bit more complicated with electric motor and prop as well as diesel engine and generator over all. I have to admit that. But in this case I think it is worth it for the quietness and instant responce. Even better with the pods it is one less potential place for water to enter the boat. scott carle| 8145|8128|2005-06-14 21:19:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Using self drilling/ tapping screws for fixing lining strips|I have quite a lot of experience with them, I used to buy them by the keg (10,000)! There are some important things to know about them. First is that the drill point is designed to drill exactly one hole. So don't expect to reuse them in a new location. Occasionally it works, but when it doesn't the hole becomes hardened so using a second new screw will also have problems. Secondly, and more important, is to only buy quality screws, preferably with a machined not forged point. It is easy to tell them apart. If you look at the grooves forming the point you can see the parallel grinding marks if they are machined. The reason you want machined points is because that drill has to make a hole of the exact right size for what is essentially a roll forming tap (the screw). Forged points can be really really bad. When the die is brand new the screws can be just fine, but as the die wears the point gets little burrs or bulges that cut the hole much larger. These misshapen points don't drill well, so you work your ass off, then the threads strip out leaving you cussing or worse. In my case it was worse, I sold tens of thousands and had to recall them all because our machines were suspended overhead in greenhouses by these screws. Every keg that came in the door we spilled out and examined samples top to bottom, if they weren't machined point or we found rejects we sent the whole kegs back until they got them right. Third thing to know. The drill point is specified by number 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. and the number indicates the thickness the drill can penetrate. The drill point MUST penetrate the steel completely before the threads engage, otherwise it strips the threads, or often breaks the screw off in the hole. Fourth, I prefer the fine thread, like a 1/4-20 thread rather than the much coarser sheet metal type thread. You have many more threads holding the load and the additional friction keeps the screws from coming loose. Finally, know how to install these screws. Don't use high speed, the points can't take the heat from that. Use LOTS of pressure, push as hard as you can, you want thick chips not skidding in the hole generating heat. Hold the drill motor the right way. Hold it between your thumb an index finger and pull the trigger with your pinky. Are you using a battery drill that looks like a pistol? Toss that piece of crap and get a properly designed drill motor that allows holding it between the thumb and forefinger. Makita makes a battery model that can be held this way. Dewalt makes exactly one model made properly, and it costs almost $500! Almost every $29 AC drill though is made the right way, go figure. This makes such a big difference you can't believe. If your arm is not exactly in line with the screw then you can't push hard without the point walking across your nice surface, or worse the bit jumps off the head and gouges your surface. Hope this helps, Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 7:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Using self drilling/ tapping screws for fixing lining strips > Does any one have any experience or information in using self tapping > or self drilling/tapping screws for fixing lining strips and furniture > to steel tabs and angle welded inside the hull? It saves drilling > holes. Also for screwing down water tank tops. > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8146|8087|2005-06-14 21:49:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Electric Drives|I'm going to put my two cents in here also. I grew up in the electrical contracting business, doing industrial controls and lots of motor work. I work in the waste treatment industry but I still design control panels on a regular basis. We had a bucket truck and an 85 foot sign crane, both powered from a 24 volt battery bank. I used to build bench pushers for the greenhouse industry, a 12 volt motor pushing an 8,000lb bench in and out of the greenhouse a distance of 240 feet twice a day. I also have two battery powered watering machines that run all day, and have done so for nearly 14 years now. My garden tractor is a GE Elektrak of 1970 vintage. Six golfcart batteries drive a 36 volt drive motor and three 36 volt mower blade motors, plus an electric hoist to pick up the mower in the front. A couple of years ago I completely rebuilt it, replacing the old resistors and contactors with a Curtis controller and throttle pedal. Much greater battery life, smoother and safer operation. So yeah I'm a big fan of electric power. So what's to know. In one word CHARGING. How you charge the batteries is absolutely the most critical issue in long battery life and trouble free performance. It is so critical that three years ago I convinced my greenhouse customers with dozens of batteries to buy expensive 3 stage chargers instead of cheap automotive chargers. The difference was unbelievable, some of the 3 year old batteries are still going strong when they use to replace them every year! The idea using a small diesel running at it's most efficient constant speed to charge the batteries is a workable idea. Can you spell Prius? The diesel can be small and quiet and buried away from the living compartment, it can provide lots of AC (or inverter AC off the batteries) to run cheap ordinary household appliances like the microwave. The electric motor can provide fairly high speeds if needed for short periods of time. or continuous travel at low efficient speeds where the small diesel can keep the charging up. The back driving prop idea is for the most part unworkable in my view. One thing that everyone seems to over look is that the prop is pitched and curved for pushing the water efficiently. It's curved the wrong way for being driven by the water so it is very inefficient. It is also turning slowly, so it will need to be geared up to drive the motor as a generator, adding more inefficiency. There are a couple of 22 ft boats on the river near me using electric trolling motors to get in and out of marinas, or to get home when the wind dies. Surprising level of performance for a trolling motor, and almost absolutely silent. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "audeojude" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Electric Drives >I have been a member on the yahoo electricboats group for year and a > half now.... you should jump over and read some of the posts.. all > this has been hashed out and people actually doing it there. > > having said that :) now im going to jump in and give my opionion :) > lol not backed up by any personal experience. :) > > One or two eteks with a decent sized battery bank able to power at > full power about 1 hour (6 or 7 knots) or at half power for about 10 > hours... say a 36 ft boat at 3 to 4 knts for ten hours on battery. > Then have a desiel generator able to crack out enough power to run the > motor directly at half power continusly or if your feeling frisky one > that can push it at full power. > > You end up with a big generator but still smaller engine than you > probably would have had driving the boat directly. The engine will > always run at constant speed therefore in its most efficient power > range. Better use on the engine and more fuel efficient. The big > thing to me is that under 90 % of your ussage it will be very quiet > and smooth. Instant forward and reverse. No worring if the engine is > going to crank. > > Because the engine is not tied to a prop shaft you can put it anywhere > you want. > > > The other idea I have had is a powerfull engine or two of them in pods > that are pivoted over the side into the water or slid down into the > water on the rear transom. Kinda like a minkota on steriods.. > advantages is that no thru hull for prop shaft. No prop in water when > sailing. No space inside the boat at all taken up by prop shaft or > engines. > > I have bought my first small minkota to try this on my 21 ft santana. > I am going to mount two of them on the transom on slides that they > can go up and down on. Should have adjustable depth for the props from > about 2.5 ft below transom to all the way out of the water. > > It is a bit more complicated with electric motor and prop as well as > diesel engine and generator over all. I have to admit that. But in > this case I think it is worth it for the quietness and instant > responce. Even better with the pods it is one less potential place for > water to enter the boat. > > scott carle > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8147|8087|2005-06-14 21:55:27|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|Seer, I've done numerous belt drive designs, using V-belts and timing belts. I have one V-belt drive that twists the belt though 90 degrees twice! they've been running fine for eight years or more, on the same belt. People get in trouble in two area with belt drives. First is they fail to take into account just how hard the belt pulls on the shaft sideways, and they often simply don't have a strong enough structure, so the belts slip. Then they don't provide a good way to adjust belt tension. Belts stretch almost continuously over their life span. If you aren't adjusting them continuously then they slip, waste lots of power, and wear out quickly. It's that simple. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 8:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct? > There was an article wherein the guy had put it into a smallish dory > type boat by attaching the etek to a homemade adapter to the lower end > of an old outboard, and then later in the same series he installed it > by belting to an inboard shaft in a shallow displacement motor cruiser > for lack of a better description. > > On the belts, I can think of a lot of machinery, motorcycles etc. that > run a lot more than 15 hp thru belts, so there MUST be an effective > way to do it :) Concerns are going to be torque loading etc. One > advantage you have over the diesel belt to shaft thing, is that the > power from the electric is always smoothly applied, especially when > going from forward to reverse, so you won't have the 'BANG' shockloads > you get with a std. diesel. This should make a heck of diff in > longevity. For my own purposes I don't see why a very short shaft > could not be run into a fixxed thrustplate with heavy bearings, then > two of the Eteks belted opposite of each other so as to even out the > side pressures on the shaft.Either some sort of electric clutch such > as seen on big car AC units, or simple levered belt tensioners could > be employed to disengage one of the units should that be required. > > I was going to investigate the v belt setup for the simple reason of > shock loading should the prop hit something. The inherent 'give' of > the belt should be just the ticket. The other alternative would be to > use the cogged belts off the big Harley Davidson's. Would take some > calcs to figure out the ratios and then find/make the cogged pulleys, > but if they'll work on a gear shift 1000 lb Harley with two fat people > on it for thousands of miles, they should turn a prop ok :) heheheh. > > As to the corrosion problem, I'm thinking isolated "motor compartment" > , in my case probably under the aft berth, into which fresh air is > pumped thru the motors (the 325.00 ones have a shrouding for forced > air cooling already on :). Assuming good shaft bearings (tho the > 'box' could be 'upshaft' from the cutlass so as to eliminate the > inevitable drips from the actual motor compartment) it should be > possible to thus keep the motors themselves cool and dry thus > minimizing corrosion problems as much as possible. > > Lastly, one fellow noted that using the electric motors is a whole new > experience as for the first time he could now faintly hear the sounds > of the shaft turning, and the faint bearing noises. He opined that any > problems with the prop or shaft would now be immediately noticeable > thus likely to be taken careof before they became a major problem > leading to expensive repair. > > Remember, there are two options on this. First is, for maximum sailing > speed you're going to want to run a two bladed prop which you can stop > when lined up with the aperature in the skeg/rudder. If your rig is > set up so that you have quick visual access to the shaft, simply > marking same will make this procedure quick and easy. Any kind of a > band or disc brake will do. Also, for those times when the wind is in > abundance and you have more than enough to power the hull, you can > freewheel the shaft and pump electricity back into the batteries as > the motors are designed to double as generators :) There are several > controllers readily available to do this as 'regenerative braking' on > golfcarts was one of the design specs on these motors. This also > means that if you anchor in a location with any significant current, > you can be charging your batteries at anchor. > > Prop dimensions and pitch will require close attention i think, but as > yet I see no reason why this system will not work. The lack of a big > diesel located in the tail of the boat and Being able to put the > batteries wherever you want will open up some interesting interior > options. You will also have a LOT of power available to think about > installing an electric motor for your windlass and/or a captstan for > 360 degree pulling. > > last thing, seems to me that characteristics of the dc motor would be > perfect for low speed maneuvering in and out of harbors as nearly full > torque is available at very low rpm. This should VASTLY improve > starting, stopping, backing and turning, and if you have power at the > dock and are mostly daysailing, I would think you'd be set without any > aux gen set at all. > > dunno alex, i keep working thru this , and it keeps looking better and > better. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: >> Would it be preferable to have the motor directly connected to the prop >> shaft inline, or belted? With a belted system, could you put two on >> one shaft? Three? Or put one direct, and belt the others? (have one >> belted motor on standby). I read once about a trip someone did with a >> diesel which was belted to prop shaft, and it was one belt replacement >> after another, quite ridiculous. Yet we have belts on motorcycles, >> skidoos, and all sorts of industrial applications and they last and >> last, which makes me wonder about the set up in the aforementioned >> trip, perhaps not properly engineered (it wouldn't be the first time an >> amateur like us has taken half-measures on something like that!). The >> Solomon Technologies motor is interesting because two motors are >> pancaked together, but I agree about the price, it stinks! The $325 >> motor is a bargain for the experimenters among us, is brushless, and >> uses rare earth magnets. I don't know if it is sealed like the Solomon >> motor is, but at $325 you could easily afford spares. The price >> difference is freakish, to say the least, and I'm so curious I'd like >> to pop one in and try it for fun, as we do not have a diesel yet. It >> would be enough to get us out of the harbour, even on very few >> batteries (ie don't use it to motor around, just wind-jam from there). >> >> Alex > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8148|8087|2005-06-14 23:32:38|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|Bearing type in the electric motor is to be considered if in line or direct you need thrust bearings on pullies you need ball or roller. Another place to look for electric motors is http://www.surpluscenter.com/home.asp jon| 8149|8087|2005-06-14 23:35:47|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|http://www.surpluscenter.com/home.asp?UID=2004101421590880 Need the full link this will work Jon| 8150|8087|2005-06-15 01:44:16|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|put_to_sea wrote: >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > dear amos a lot of work has been done in this area by > diesel /electric locomotives and by ww2 and current submarine > technology which is the most widespread use of maritime diesel > electrics . <<< > > > To my way of thinking, running a diesel generator to run the > electric motor defeats the whole purpose of using an electric > drive. Well, in the two examples given it is necessary. Firstly, when running the motors off the diesel, you can have the diesel sited conveniently (not necessarily lined up with one or more drive shafts). Secondly, you can run it at a constant, efficient speed and just vary the speed of the electric motors (which are much more efficient at this) to vary the vehicle speed. Thirdly, in the case of trains, it is advantageous to put power to the track through as many wheels as possible - synchronising 10 or 20 diesel engines would be difficult and they would be incredibly heavy and space consuming (making the train structure harder to engineer), electric motors are mcuh more convenient and the wiring to them is relatively easy and non space consuming. In the case of diesel/electric subs, of course, it is a necessity - you can't run the diesel below periscope depth or you asphyxiate your crew, so you use only battery when submerged and diesel/electric when not. Chris| 8151|8070|2005-06-15 03:41:51|sae140|Re: eBook : " Blade "|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Gerd , I just uploaded a new file : Blade.pdf > I read the file with ease as an eBook , > just an PDF file , but I am having problems > downloading it , from the Files > Yahoo Groups Files incompatible , or is it me > with my Apple ?? > Flatly refused to download using Download Accelerator (that's gonna be a Yahoo thing - nothing to do with the file itself). Downloaded ok using regular download & viewable ok with Acrobat 4 & 5, but I notice that a couple of graphics stradle 2 pages. Teething probs. Looks like you have a good scheme lined up ..... Colin| 8152|8087|2005-06-15 04:01:53|sae140|Re: Electric drive to shaft -belt or direct?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Would it be preferable to have the motor directly connected to the prop > shaft inline, or belted? With a belted system, could you put two on > one shaft? Three? Or put one direct, and belt the others? (have one > belted motor on standby). I read once about a trip someone did with a > diesel which was belted to prop shaft, and it was one belt replacement > after another, quite ridiculous. Yet we have belts on motorcycles, > skidoos, and all sorts of industrial applications and they last and > last, which makes me wonder about the set up in the aforementioned > trip, perhaps not properly engineered (it wouldn't be the first time an > amateur like us has taken half-measures on something like that!). Dunno if it's relevant here, but I have a 10HP ride-on mower which uses a single V belt for transfer of power to gearbox and blades. Built in 1981, and used for around 200 hrs/year, it's still on the original belt - which is fully exposed to wet grass etc. I think the secret to preventing slippage is the use of large diameter pulleys, and idler wheels to create more than 180 degree contact. Having said this, direct drive to a propshaft has to be a much better solution. Also - be advised that all B&S products (including their 'marine' outboard engine) are only designed for freshwater use. Using them in a salt water environment voids the guarantee. Colin| 8153|8070|2005-06-15 07:34:33|Gerd|Re: eBook : " Blade "|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Gerd , I just uploaded a new file : Blade.pdf > I read the file with ease as an eBook , > just an PDF file , but I am having problems > downloading it Hi Ben, don't now, best is to check the possibilities out with moderator Alex. Actually I do think that the yahoo forums are not very good... personally I find other forum-systems much easier to use (look at boatdesign.net) Uploading pictures with each posting is possible I believe but was switched off because of too much un-appropriate stuff ?? Alex? Having them in the thread directly would be much better - I have to admit that I rarely bother to check out uploaded pictures and files, unless it's of real interest. Come to think of it - Maybe we would be better off if we would try to join the boat-design.net forums??? For one thing we would merge with another very active communitiy with lots of smart people for all things that are not specifically origami, and on the other hand we would bring them a big user-base, plus knowledge & practical experience about a technology that they do not cover for the moment? Could be that in such a fusion we would all be winners... Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8154|8113|2005-06-15 08:01:46|Gerd|Re: Broaching|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > if anybody knows what i could expect from a steel multihull i would be greatful . To answer a bit blunt: the same that you could expect from any other multihull of the same weight... ;-) It's all about displacement. You can not reasonably build light in steel, and most multihull designs will try not to go for heavy displacement. Most, but not all... There are some designs that have a displacement that would be possible to re-produce with a steel design, from a certain size upward and sometimes with a lot of tweaking and some compromises. You would have to exclude all "unnessesary" steel panels, for example no solid plated foredeck instead of netting etc, you would have to make good on paying a bit more for lightweight materials for your insides, you might want to go for composite solutions like ply- epoxy for the cabin top etc. but I believe it is possible. Of course it's cheaper in the sense that the shell-material for a catamaran takes a much larger part in the overall weight (and therefore cost) than with a monohull. Building a multihull needs A LOT more shell-material and if you can save on that you win. What you would need to do is make yourself a rough overview: - Take a commercial off-the-shelf cruising cat, one that is rather on the heavy side. - from pictures and layout drawings in the docs, get a rough estimate of what surface this design has for hulls decks bridgedeck cabin and so on. - take out all superfluous areas and reduce the shell to the strict minimum for the same volume - assume plating for the hull to be 4mm, for deck etc 2,5 or 3mm, add some extra for strucure and calculate the weight for the entire shell. - deduct this from the commercial cat's displacement. With what is left you have to do all the rest, rig, equipment, gear, tanks... Variations would be comparisons with even heavier boats with known characteristics, or other radical moves to reduce your own displacment (more spartan interior, smaller tanks, ply decks....) If you want to add some real knowledge to the world and bring the admittedly biased discussion about steel multihulls on a higher and more enlightened level, you put it all into an excel sheet and publish it to our pool of wisdom in the file section ;-) Gerd| 8155|8155|2005-06-15 11:53:53|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Electric drives & wiring in general|Someone mentioned using heavy copper welding wire for heavy DC applications. Used it myself on big battery banks & no problems & cheap enough, but do not use silicon on copper of any kind as the acid in silicone EATS the copper. use vasaline instead (as you should on all electrical connections.. just like for battery connections) for a solid, dependable electrica joint you can count on under water, like in the bilge, you 1. crimp. do NOT solder. best to use 1/4"od copper cut into short lengths for most wiring - lights etc or 1/2" copper pipe for big welding cable 2. butter it up with valaline (which is only bleached axel greese & the only reason its better is cuz cleanup is easier) 3. double heat shrink, the 2nd tube of heat shrink at least 1/2" overlap on each end than the first 4. dont forget to butter the 1st heat shrink with vasaline b4 you put the 2nd sleeve of heat shrink on so it gooshes out the ends as you heat it dont' go cheap on materials as heat shrink & vasaline are the cheapest part ofthe equasion & done properly it should never give you a problem - even underwater in the bilge (on a glass/timber boat that is that has greasy water in the bilge) Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8156|8113|2005-06-15 15:32:40|Alex|group mods|I am taking into consideration Gerd's suggestions for easing the flow of information and data among group members. Something I have been looking into for a long time is a bulletin board on my own website (coming soon after launching of film) which would allow us complete freedom to create a forum exactly tailored to the needs of the group, without the need for advertising (although I wouldn't rule out a small banner type of ad if it were something completely relevant to the group and helped support the site). In the meantime I would like to poll group members about whether I should unlock the attachment ability for posting. I originally locked it down out of respect for people who were on boats or slow dial-up because it is way too easy to overload their quota with just one large photo. If there is someone who this would affect badly now, please let the group know in this informal poll. If it does not bother anyone, then I'd be happy to try unlocking the attachment ability for messages, as long as everyone works to keep said attachments small (ie don't attach something that is going to take a million years to download for our members who have dial-up connections). This means re-sizing photos for lower resolution (often there is no noticable effect). Sending a small photo that takes 425kb when it could be 42kb is an example I mean. If a file is really large then it should be put into the file section of group 1 or group 2, in any case. So let me know over the next few days as to Attachments "Yes" or Attachments "No" and I will alter settings accordingly if there is a strong feeling one way or another. Alex| 8157|8087|2005-06-15 18:39:22|audeojude|Re: Electric Drives|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > The back driving prop idea is for the most part unworkable in my view. One > thing that everyone seems to over look is that the prop is pitched and > curved for pushing the water efficiently. It's curved the wrong way for > being driven by the water so it is very inefficient. It is also turning > slowly, so it will need to be geared up to drive the motor as a generator, > adding more inefficiency. Mounting the engines in pods on the back of the boat in slides you should be able to also design it to rotate 180 degrees so that the prop faces the other direction, therefore working a little bit better for charging. Even with normal thru hull setups like solomon tech is using they are claiming a very decent recarge rate. > > There are a couple of 22 ft boats on the river near me using electric > trolling motors to get in and out of marinas, or to get home when the wind > dies. Surprising level of performance for a trolling motor, and almost > absolutely silent. I'm hoping it works for me :) I bought a inflatable boat a couple of weeks ago for 50$ and got a 35lb thrust minkota trolling motor thrown in. Just have to pick up one more and design my slides on back of boat. then take controler off of shaft and move it to where i can reach it easily. Maybe even redesign the controls so that it is a nice dual lever forward and reveres control for each motor. Fun project and cheap so far. I'm thinking that nicely done I can keep it under 200 for batteries motors and changing controls.. we will see.. I will report in when it's done.. :) probably sometime late summer when I get time to mess with it. scott| 8158|8113|2005-06-15 18:59:18|audeojude|Re: group mods|Alex and group, If you really want a different forum I have the buildingyourboat.com website already set up. ... I hadn't intended to use it as a forum since I didn't want to try and compete with the group here so never enabled the forum module. However it does have that capability if I enable it. It also has a multitude of other features such as photo gallerys, upload of files, polls, dedicated article publishing, a wiki that is already setup and just waiting for me and others to start putting boat building information in. A directroy that you can put web links into kinda like a baby yahoo or netscape directory.. it has a lot of other features also. For a full list follow this link http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFeatures . It is searchable and you can cross index subjects and catagories between many of the modules. It also has the ability to take and print pdf's from the wiki's so you can tell it to print a section or the entire thing and it will create a nice pdf all formated like a book and download it to you. It is running on my own linux server on a dedicated 1.5mb up commercial internet connection. In a storm proof server facility with full time on demand generator power backup (40KW). there is a 160 gig hard drive mostly empty and I will purchase a larger hard drive and move the website to it if that is needed. No more space worries. Now having offered this if it isn't what everyone wants I won't be offended, but it is offered in support of the community. Audeojude aka Scott Carle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > I am taking into consideration Gerd's suggestions for easing the flow of information and > data among group members. Something I have been looking into for a long time is a > bulletin board on my own website (coming soon after launching of film) which would allow > us complete freedom to create a forum exactly tailored to the needs of the group, without > the need for advertising (although I wouldn't rule out a small banner type of ad if it were > something completely relevant to the group and helped support the site). > > In the meantime I would like to poll group members about whether I should unlock the > attachment ability for posting. I originally locked it down out of respect for people who > were on boats or slow dial-up because it is way too easy to overload their quota with just > one large photo. If there is someone who this would affect badly now, please let the > group know in this informal poll. If it does not bother anyone, then I'd be happy to try > unlocking the attachment ability for messages, as long as everyone works to keep said > attachments small (ie don't attach something that is going to take a million years to > download for our members who have dial-up connections). This means re-sizing photos > for lower resolution (often there is no noticable effect). Sending a small photo that takes > 425kb when it could be 42kb is an example I mean. If a file is really large then it should be > put into the file section of group 1 or group 2, in any case. > > So let me know over the next few days as to Attachments "Yes" or Attachments "No" and I > will alter settings accordingly if there is a strong feeling one way or another. > > Alex | 8159|8087|2005-06-15 19:12:22|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Electric Drives|Should try just the one motor you have. You'll be surprised, if one give you one knot two will give you maybe 1-1/2 knots. It is not at all linear. Turning the prop around will help some, but the curve is still wrong for the purpose. Props are wings with specific curvature to make them efficient. Much better to have replaceable prop designed as a water turbine. It could then be substantially larger and with the right pitch to properly drive the motor as a generator. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "audeojude" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electric Drives > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: >> >> The back driving prop idea is for the most part unworkable in my > view. One >> thing that everyone seems to over look is that the prop is pitched and >> curved for pushing the water efficiently. It's curved the wrong way > for >> being driven by the water so it is very inefficient. It is also > turning >> slowly, so it will need to be geared up to drive the motor as a > generator, >> adding more inefficiency. > > Mounting the engines in pods on the back of the boat in slides you > should be able to also design it to rotate 180 degrees so that the > prop faces the other direction, therefore working a little bit better > for charging. > > Even with normal thru hull setups like solomon tech is using they are > claiming a very decent recarge rate. > >> >> There are a couple of 22 ft boats on the river near me using electric >> trolling motors to get in and out of marinas, or to get home when > the wind >> dies. Surprising level of performance for a trolling motor, and almost >> absolutely silent. > > > I'm hoping it works for me :) I bought a inflatable boat a couple of > weeks ago for 50$ and got a 35lb thrust minkota trolling motor thrown > in. Just have to pick up one more and design my slides on back of > boat. then take controler off of shaft and move it to where i can > reach it easily. Maybe even redesign the controls so that it is a nice > dual lever forward and reveres control for each motor. Fun project and > cheap so far. I'm thinking that nicely done I can keep it under 200 > for batteries motors and changing controls.. we will see.. I will > report in when it's done.. :) probably sometime late summer when I get > time to mess with it. > > scott > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8160|8155|2005-06-15 19:30:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Electric drives & wiring in general|A little more information about electric drives. Welding cable is not really a good, or inexpensive choice for battery wiring. Welding cable is made from extremely fine stands so it can take constant flexing. That also means it greatly accelerates corrosion which inevitably happens. For this reason alone common large size electrical wire would be a better choice, and cheaper too. For those of you who don't quite understand why people keep comparing a 5 hp electric motor with a 15 hp diesel. A diesel motor produces it's greatest torque at a speed near it's maximum rated speed. Overload a diesel and it slows down until the power it can put out matches the load, or it stalls. So accelerating a load, boat, truck, train, whatever, is limited to the maximum torque the diesel can supply. An electric motor is completely different. Overload an electric motor and it puts out more torque to match the load. A typical DC motor can easily put out 3 to 6 times its rated torque under a heavy load! Now in doing this it also is putting out much more horsepower, and doing it less efficiently, so it's going to heat up fast under that kind of abuse. However this is a very good thing for starting high inertia loads like boats, trucks, and trains. Your wimpy 5 hp motor can accelerate the load like a 15 hp diesel, and then continue to supply 5 hp for as long as you are moving. Note however, that it will NEVER give you the same top speed for long distances as a 15 hp diesel, because your top speed will be limited to only what requires 5 hp. So a 5 hp electric motor really isn't equal to a 15 hp diesel, except if you limit the comparison to the short term range of action where the electric has an advantage. Note that a 15 hp diesel with a good multi-gear ratio transmission would whup your 5 hp electric real bad in every way! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electric drives & wiring in general > Someone mentioned using heavy copper welding wire for > heavy DC applications. Used it myself on big battery > banks & no problems & cheap enough, but do not use > silicon on copper of any kind as the acid in silicone > EATS the copper. > > use vasaline instead (as you should on all electrical > connections.. just like for battery connections) for a > solid, dependable electrica joint you can count on > under water, like in the bilge, you > 1. crimp. do NOT solder. best to use 1/4"od copper cut > into short lengths for most wiring - lights etc or > 1/2" copper pipe for big welding cable > 2. butter it up with valaline (which is only bleached > axel greese & the only reason its better is cuz > cleanup is easier) > 3. double heat shrink, the 2nd tube of heat shrink at > least 1/2" overlap on each end than the first > 4. dont forget to butter the 1st heat shrink with > vasaline b4 you put the 2nd sleeve of heat shrink on > so it gooshes out the ends as you heat it > > dont' go cheap on materials as heat shrink & vasaline > are the cheapest part ofthe equasion & done properly > it should never give you a problem - even underwater > in the bilge (on a glass/timber boat that is that has > greasy water in the bilge) > > Shane > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8161|8087|2005-06-15 22:22:30|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Thanks Ted :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > www.fptgroup.com has downloads on designing and sizing belt drives. > Regards, > Ted | 8162|8087|2005-06-15 23:02:05|audeojude|Re: Electric Drives|Acutally if you used the mount on rails on transom then it would be easy to do that. They could slide up till you had easy access to them from the stern. swap off drive props for generating prop. If you knew you were under sail out at sea for days or anchored for days wouldn't be to bad to do. don't think I would like to do that on a day sail though. would still work both ways but just more efieciently with generating prop. I am going to try it with the one :) actually it is one of those designed to mount on a outboard motor mount so will be easy to just swap out for my outboard :) and hook up portable battery I have to test it. however its only a 35lb thrust unit. To be honest I would prefer a 55 to 100 lbd thrust unit for a single motor. but it was the right price for proof of concept. :) scott .--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Should try just the one motor you have. You'll be surprised, if one give > you one knot two will give you maybe 1-1/2 knots. It is not at all linear. > > Turning the prop around will help some, but the curve is still wrong for the > purpose. Props are wings with specific curvature to make them efficient. > > Much better to have replaceable prop designed as a water turbine. It could > then be substantially larger and with the right pitch to properly drive the > motor as a generator. > > Gary H. Lucas | 8163|8087|2005-06-15 23:07:59|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|I think what it boils down to is that you are going to need a pretty decent powered onboard diesel generator to supply the power needed for any extended running at speed. I noticed on the STI (Solomon Technologies site, they have installed a number of their units in our size monohulls, one being a 12 hp unit in a Cherubini 44 which is substantially heavier than I think my boat will be. What they are really doing is not going totally electric, but using the electric drive for assist under sailing (as I plan to do )for the most part, and apparently when strictly 'motoring' the generator kicks in and supplies the large amperage required to power for any distance at substantial speed. I believe the 44 carries 10 8-D's, that's a LOT :) I would think something over 1000 lbs. Soo, now some careful correspondence to discern what is really necessary. Amos, I am in total agreement with your analysis. This is not a panacea for all diesel aux woes, but, here's my additional take: What I see is that i'm losing the transmission and all its characteristics. I am losing the longish shaft, I'm also losing the std. aux which for sake of argument, in my case would be something like a 50 hp or so BIG chunk of iron, and its required location ...another consideration. What I get instead is an smaller, much more fuel efficient (and probably longer lasting )optimum located generator, probably pretty substantial, 8kv or better, located where the weight benefits the design instead of the other way round. Again, with only cables coming out, thru hull plumbing and exhaust, I think I can get it pretty quiet. So, i have the cost of the motors, the cost of the generator, the cost of the batteries, and the cabling involved. A shorter shaft, probably more expensive prop, (the 44 uses a 20x18). The end result, would be near silent 'motorsailing', quieter 'powering' (even with the generator up and running) an abundance of electric power, at a smorgasboard of voltages, for dead quiet evening lighting etc., and perhaps even on board ac/dc welding; superb harbor manueverability and low speed control around the docks. With a straight Aux, you would still (at least I would) need generating ability tho driven off the main, still need at least several batteries. At this point I guess its down to serious calcs and identifying specific system components and actual prices to see if it makes any sense. As my 'double e' engineering step dad said when i put the basic outline of the system before him, "hell, for 325 a pop, there's no reason you couldn't belt two, three or even four of those motors to a short/stiff shaft and have all the power you want." He also reminded me that the QEII is an electric drive vessel :) hehe. It is clear tho, that just tossing in a 12 volt and an etek won't get you very far alone :) Now, regarding efficiencies, as I see it I'm gaining on the generator, fixxed speed optimum tuned diesels running under appropriate load are MUCH more fuel efficient than the std. aux, AND will in most cases outlive one as the primary killer of diesel engines I'm told, is not being run hard enough. The etek at speed is around 80 to 91 percent efficient which to me is amazing. The larger two blade, slow turning but high pitch prop is similarly much more efficient getting far better bite on the water. I will have to give some thought to matching such a prop to the aperature in the skeg/rudder combo. Another consideration will be some training up on all the electrical equipment on board. It will not do to rely on finding a local g'whiz electrician out in the boondocks. When I figure all this up, I'm pretty sure that unless some amazing deals just fall into my lap, this installation will cost more, how much more, I'll have to figure out and then judge if that differential is worth 'ghosting' along the canals :) and 'sailing' away from astonished becalmed captains :) As i pointed out when i began this thread, I'm pretty sure this system will not meet the 'Brent' simple and cheap criteria :) However, for me it might just work. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > I have been studying this electric drive thing for more than a year > and here are some of my conclusions and thoughts. > > The energy density of batteries is very low so to make the system > work you have to maximize efficiency in your whole drive system - > this means large diameter, slow turning prop powered by an efficient > motor that is geared down through an efficient reduction system. > You cannot afford efficiency losses anywhere in the system. > > You must run at less than one times the square root of the waterline > length in order to get power consumption down to a feasible level. > So you can run for a long time at 3 knots but at much greater speed, > the endurance is very short. This is not necessarily bad. With the > electric drive, you can have great bursts of speed available > immediately for a short period when needed but for traveling any > distance at all you will need to slow down. > > Regeneration from the prop seems to be over rated. In order to > generate meaningful amounts of energy, the prop must be very large > and boat speed or current if anchored must be close to hull speed. > Such a large prop will have considerable drag while sailing, but if > you have a lot of wind, it may not be a problem. Alternatively, if > the wind is light, you can add just enough power to the prop to > eliminate its drag. I have not determined how much power that would > be. > > I have been considering the electric drive but the problem is that > it is like every other convenience, one thing builds on another and > complexities keep building, and pretty soon, you no longer have an > inexpensive simple cruising boat. I am still undecided. > > Amos | 8164|8087|2005-06-15 23:10:21|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|I think that is what Alex is contemplating, but for my purposes, alas, greater requirements must be met. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dreemer1962" wrote: > It seems that most of you interested in the electric's have very high > expectations of such a system, which adds considerably to the costs and > complexity. Did any one consider minimalistic approach? Going back to > the old fashioned concept of minimum power. Using engine just to enter > or leave the harbor? Something as powering for the maximum of about 45 - > 60 minutes at the "speed" of 2 - 3 knots and recharging during the > sailing? > > Milan | 8165|8087|2005-06-15 23:23:28|audeojude|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|A good summation seer scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I think what it boils down to is that you are going to need a pretty > decent powered onboard diesel generator to supply the power needed for > any extended running at speed. I noticed on the STI (Solomon > Technologies site, they have installed a number of their units in our > size monohulls, one being a 12 hp unit in a Cherubini 44 which is > substantially heavier than I think my boat will be. What they are > really doing is not going totally electric, but using the electric > drive for assist under sailing (as I plan to do )for the most part, > and apparently when strictly 'motoring' the generator kicks in and > supplies the large amperage required to power for any distance at > substantial speed. I believe the 44 carries 10 8-D's, that's a LOT :) > I would think something over 1000 lbs. Soo, > now some careful correspondence to discern what is really necessary. > Amos, I am in total agreement with your analysis. This is not a > panacea for all diesel aux woes, but, here's my additional take: > > What I see is that i'm losing the transmission and all its > characteristics. I am losing the longish shaft, I'm also losing the > std. aux which for sake of argument, in my case would be something > like a 50 hp or so BIG chunk of iron, and its required location > ...another consideration. > > What I get instead is an smaller, much more fuel efficient (and > probably longer lasting )optimum located generator, probably pretty > substantial, 8kv or better, located where the weight benefits the > design instead of the other way round. Again, with only cables coming > out, thru hull plumbing and exhaust, I think I can get it pretty > quiet. So, i have the cost of the motors, the cost of the generator, > the cost of the batteries, and the cabling involved. A shorter shaft, > probably more expensive prop, (the 44 uses a 20x18). > > The end result, would be near silent 'motorsailing', quieter > 'powering' (even with the generator up and running) an abundance of > electric power, at a smorgasboard of voltages, for dead quiet evening > lighting etc., and perhaps even on board ac/dc welding; superb harbor > manueverability and low speed control around the docks. > > With a straight Aux, you would still (at least I would) need > generating ability tho driven off the main, still need at least > several batteries. > > At this point I guess its down to serious calcs and identifying > specific system components and actual prices to see if it makes any > sense. As my 'double e' engineering step dad said when i put the > basic outline of the system before him, "hell, for 325 a pop, there's > no reason you couldn't belt two, three or even four of those motors to > a short/stiff shaft and have all the power you want." He also > reminded me that the QEII is an electric drive vessel :) hehe. > > It is clear tho, that just tossing in a 12 volt and an etek won't get > you very far alone :) > > Now, regarding efficiencies, as I see it I'm gaining on the generator, > fixxed speed optimum tuned diesels running under appropriate load are > MUCH more fuel efficient than the std. aux, AND will in most cases > outlive one as the primary killer of diesel engines I'm told, is not > being run hard enough. The etek at speed is around 80 to 91 percent > efficient which to me is amazing. The larger two blade, slow turning > but high pitch prop is similarly much more efficient getting far > better bite on the water. I will have to give some thought to matching > such a prop to the aperature in the skeg/rudder combo. Another > consideration will be some training up on all the electrical equipment > on board. It will not do to rely on finding a local g'whiz electrician > out in the boondocks. > > When I figure all this up, I'm pretty sure that unless some amazing > deals just fall into my lap, this installation will cost more, how > much more, I'll have to figure out and then judge if that differential > is worth 'ghosting' along the canals :) and 'sailing' away from > astonished becalmed captains :) > > As i pointed out when i began this thread, I'm pretty sure this system > will not meet the 'Brent' simple and cheap criteria :) However, for me > it might just work. > > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > > I have been studying this electric drive thing for more than a year > > and here are some of my conclusions and thoughts. > > > > The energy density of batteries is very low so to make the system > > work you have to maximize efficiency in your whole drive system - > > this means large diameter, slow turning prop powered by an efficient > > motor that is geared down through an efficient reduction system. > > You cannot afford efficiency losses anywhere in the system. > > > > You must run at less than one times the square root of the waterline > > length in order to get power consumption down to a feasible level. > > So you can run for a long time at 3 knots but at much greater speed, > > the endurance is very short. This is not necessarily bad. With the > > electric drive, you can have great bursts of speed available > > immediately for a short period when needed but for traveling any > > distance at all you will need to slow down. > > > > Regeneration from the prop seems to be over rated. In order to > > generate meaningful amounts of energy, the prop must be very large > > and boat speed or current if anchored must be close to hull speed. > > Such a large prop will have considerable drag while sailing, but if > > you have a lot of wind, it may not be a problem. Alternatively, if > > the wind is light, you can add just enough power to the prop to > > eliminate its drag. I have not determined how much power that would > > be. > > > > I have been considering the electric drive but the problem is that > > it is like every other convenience, one thing builds on another and > > complexities keep building, and pretty soon, you no longer have an > > inexpensive simple cruising boat. I am still undecided. > > > > Amos | 8166|8087|2005-06-15 23:24:51|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|Every aux motor I know of has batteries, thus we're dealing with a pre-existing condition. My thought is that I can place these batts in isolated compartments individually vented OUTSIDE the hull...there are also the various sealed 'mat' or gel batteries which might also work. As for the number, on the Falcon, I ran 4 8-D's which I then swapped out for the golf batteries which was a HUGE improvement, especially when trying to replace them :) LUgging 8-D's around, even with my 6'4 220 frame, is no simple matter. Voltage I'm looking at is 48 or higher, and, since there are now 8 volt golf batteries, I might consider going that route to lessen the count but still get the kind of deep cycling i require. Furthermore, I'm informed that if one is careful to keep from overdischarging/charging the batt system, the generator assisted dc drive system can result in battery life of something approaching ten years which to me seems high, but that is what one commerical source is saying. Furthermore, since there are belt systems that handle hundreds of horsepower I think it just might be possible to build a setup that would handle 30 :) My anticipated installation of opposing motors on either side of the shaft will do a LOT to lessen shaft stress and vibration, and remember I'm talking about a MUCH shorter, i.e.stiffer shaft, and the size of the bearings in the thrust bearing is limited only by whim. Note that the Etek uses a 7/8" shaft. There are not a lot of motors that have that big of shaft...my reading tells me this motor is built pretty darn stout. There are a number of controllers out there matched to this specific motor so I don't anticipate a lot of problems there, your idea of swapping wholesale the system from a forklift raises some interesting possibilities, :) thanks. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear amos a lot of work has been done in this area by diesel /electric locomotives and by ww2 and current submarine technology which is the most widespread use of maritime diesel electrics . there must be good research available somewhere , I would guess your voltage must rise well above 24volts to get some efficiency and if you could avoid belts you will avoid early bearing wear, > and belt tension can be a science all of its own if you could mount motors in line in series or bolt multiable motors to a transfer gearbox you may have more reliability , > however if you transplant the workings /switchgear/batteries from a forklift you now have all your wiring done and the contacts and motor matched to the power supply as dc low voltage switchgear will melt if not properly specked , the lower your voltage and the higher your current the hotter your switchgear/wiring will run . you can sometimes pick up a good forklift for nothing as the cost of replacing the special batteries is much greater than the value of the fork lift and I have watched their owners pour gallons of acid ( yes gallons) into them on a regular basis as they display an astonishing thirst for the stuff , > the other cheerful thing you must be aware of is this will call for a large amount of lead acid batteries which will need to be mounted low and the acid fumes from a charging/discharging battery will rot your head and boat , > as they age expect a constant fog to rival cherbynobal and if you turn the hull expect to be showered in acid then burned and finally as the salt water puts out the fire it will make a chlorine bomb to extinguish all life for a hundred meters , otherwise it is a good idea and good luck . Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: put_to_sea > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :) > > > I have been studying this electric drive thing for more than a year > and here are some of my conclusions and thoughts. > > The energy density of batteries is very low so to make the system > work you have to maximize efficiency in your whole drive system - > this means large diameter, slow turning prop powered by an efficient > motor that is geared down through an efficient reduction system. > You cannot afford efficiency losses anywhere in the system. > > You must run at less than one times the square root of the waterline > length in order to get power consumption down to a feasible level. > So you can run for a long time at 3 knots but at much greater speed, > the endurance is very short. This is not necessarily bad. With the > electric drive, you can have great bursts of speed available > immediately for a short period when needed but for traveling any > distance at all you will need to slow down. > > Regeneration from the prop seems to be over rated. In order to > generate meaningful amounts of energy, the prop must be very large > and boat speed or current if anchored must be close to hull speed. > Such a large prop will have considerable drag while sailing, but if > you have a lot of wind, it may not be a problem. Alternatively, if > the wind is light, you can add just enough power to the prop to > eliminate its drag. I have not determined how much power that would > be. > > I have been considering the electric drive but the problem is that > it is like every other convenience, one thing builds on another and > complexities keep building, and pretty soon, you no longer have an > inexpensive simple cruising boat. I am still undecided. > > Amos > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8167|8142|2005-06-15 23:34:50|seeratlas|Re: Digest Number 1215|One system design that works for me conceptually is the generator assist on demand. The controller is constantly tracking the requirements of the drive, when the batteries begin to discharge near the 70 percent level or as the amperage draw grows beyond a set point, the controller will autostart the aux diesel generator to assist the load. Several controllers I've seen are programmable from a std. pc thru a simple comm cable. I think this setup will get the job done. Now it becomes a matter of engineering some reliability. Again, using commercial industrial components will go a long way towards this end. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > I can sympathise with the desire for a quiet drive on > a canal boat because by the end of a day standing over > a noisy diesel you become very fatigued. > > One way around the problem would be a joint drive i.e > Have a diesel engine for situations where a high power > output is required such as river and estuary use and > keep the electric drive for canal use where the speed > is in any case limited to 4mph. > However there are 2 other options - steam or Ericson > hot air engine.I think that these last are claimed to > attain diesel engine outputs and efficiency. > Cheers > Andy Airey > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com | 8168|8113|2005-06-15 23:40:26|seeratlas|Re: Broaching|I think the larger you go, the more likely the steel hull design begins to make much more sense. Plus, origami hulls will keep the weight substantially below the std. FRAMe FRAME FRAME construction usually considered the norm for steel construction. Once you decide to forego 30 knot planing ...lots of things become achievable in steel. Then there is always alloy...If you want a mulithull (and you have enough experience to KNOW that's what you want) then by all means build a multi. This group is about building what YOU want, not what everyone else says you should have...the caveat is that you really need to have sufficient on the water experience with cats to have an 'educated' opinion... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > thank you Jim and Seer for your valuable advice I note the warning by you both that the hull design is stable but inflexible with wind and will not heel and spill energy when it is really necessary to do so , this brings me to a core question I have been unable to research , if I go ahead and build a steel multi hull which I am told no self-respecting naval architect would design as its wetted surface hull displacement will not allow the kind of speeds normally attainable by a multihull > and only a fool would be happy with the results , this fool would be very happy with a stable motorsailor for costal exploration . however I cannot find a source to relate what is the behaviour of a steel multihull , is it less safe than a light displacement multihull or more safe and why , this week in boat international the cover story is the launch of the worlds first tri mega yacht complete with computer controlled hydraulic constantly variable stabilisers / paddles for mooring as its no fun at all playing pool in a busy harbour as you all know well what an upset this can be, > if anybody knows what i could expect from a steel multihull i would be greatful . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jim_both > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:34 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Broaching > > > Hi Denis; > > I'm sure trimaran designs has come someway over the last forty years, > but at this time Piver was an innovator with his designs and > construction methods. There were a few problems; his boats wouldn't > point because they were so light the waves kept knocking the bow(s) > off the wind. The other problem was that they could slide down a wave > and tend to dig in because the bows were very fine, so you had to be > careful not to broach. The other thing is that they were so stable > there was no give when hit by a gust to wind. They dealt with wind > gusts by getting a spurt of speed. They didn't spill wind out of the > sails and the rigging was like a tightly-wound spring. Scary! > > On the other hand when conditions were right they would surf, the > rudder would hum, and they went like a bat out of hell. Exhilarating, > but not the sort of boat we wanted to be on when too far out from > shore.... In those days the only way we could get help was a WWII > hand-operated SOS generator with an antenna carried aloft on a ballon. > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful if you > could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran design as > all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim_both > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching > > > > > > My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago > and > > after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a > ferro > > yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not > right > > itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8169|8087|2005-06-15 23:45:39|seeratlas|Re: Electric Drives|Your thinking is much like mine. I would consider hingeing your two 'minkotas' near the waterline with a simple jackline to raise and lower them to the stern. That way if you hit anything, they will simple kick up :) Course, you'll need some way to pin them for reverse LOL. I'm sure that will work, one thing, you'll want to get units that offer some pretty large props. Bigger the better I think. :)seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > I have been a member on the yahoo electricboats group for year and a > half now.... you should jump over and read some of the posts.. all > this has been hashed out and people actually doing it there. > > having said that :) now im going to jump in and give my opionion :) > lol not backed up by any personal experience. :) > > One or two eteks with a decent sized battery bank able to power at > full power about 1 hour (6 or 7 knots) or at half power for about 10 > hours... say a 36 ft boat at 3 to 4 knts for ten hours on battery. > Then have a desiel generator able to crack out enough power to run the > motor directly at half power continusly or if your feeling frisky one > that can push it at full power. > > You end up with a big generator but still smaller engine than you > probably would have had driving the boat directly. The engine will > always run at constant speed therefore in its most efficient power > range. Better use on the engine and more fuel efficient. The big > thing to me is that under 90 % of your ussage it will be very quiet > and smooth. Instant forward and reverse. No worring if the engine is > going to crank. > > Because the engine is not tied to a prop shaft you can put it anywhere > you want. > > > The other idea I have had is a powerfull engine or two of them in pods > that are pivoted over the side into the water or slid down into the > water on the rear transom. Kinda like a minkota on steriods.. > advantages is that no thru hull for prop shaft. No prop in water when > sailing. No space inside the boat at all taken up by prop shaft or > engines. > > I have bought my first small minkota to try this on my 21 ft santana. > I am going to mount two of them on the transom on slides that they > can go up and down on. Should have adjustable depth for the props from > about 2.5 ft below transom to all the way out of the water. > > It is a bit more complicated with electric motor and prop as well as > diesel engine and generator over all. I have to admit that. But in > this case I think it is worth it for the quietness and instant > responce. Even better with the pods it is one less potential place for > water to enter the boat. > > scott carle | 8170|8087|2005-06-15 23:57:34|seeratlas|Re: Oh No!!! NOT Electric DRives again :)|As you point out, I don't see any problem in putting 2, 3 or even 4 motors belted to the shaft. 4 of those would give you 32 full time hp , sixty in an emergency..(should you require that much) a 300 percent greater chance that you will always have at least one motor in working condition :) heheh all for around 1300.00. That seems hella cheap to me. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > > Thirdly, in the case of trains, it is advantageous to put > power to the track through as many wheels as possible - synchronising 10 > or 20 diesel engines would be difficult and they would be incredibly > heavy and space consuming (making the train structure harder to > engineer), electric motors are mcuh more convenient and the wiring to > them is relatively easy and non space consuming. > > In the case of diesel/electric subs, of course, it is a necessity - you > can't run the diesel below periscope depth or you asphyxiate your crew, > so you use only battery when submerged and diesel/electric when not. > > Chris | 8171|8113|2005-06-16 05:23:28|T & D CAIN|Re: group mods|Alex, The difficulty with matching dial-up and broadband speeds will be with us for a while I feel, and this has forced me (on dialup) to use webmail to screen the mailbox prior to using the local client to collect. If you want a large attachment on an item, it is then best downloaded by a right-click, and 'save target as', --- which avoids the essential? +50% data overhead if a client app. such as 'outlook' is the norm.. This process certainly helps reduce the on-line time. Browsing thumbnails is a possibility with those images of interest taken at full file size? Unless the contributor has access to a file reduction package (dimensions and algorithm), and knows the deal wrt the intent of the image, it would be difficult to manage from an administrative POV? Thumbs linked to full size is worth investigating? Those posting would spend as much time as they cared to in the upload phase and those viewing would have a choice. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2005 05:03 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] group mods I am taking into consideration Gerd's suggestions for easing the flow of information and data among group members. Something I have been looking into for a long time is a bulletin board on my own website (coming soon after launching of film) which would allow us complete freedom to create a forum exactly tailored to the needs of the group, without the need for advertising (although I wouldn't rule out a small banner type of ad if it were something completely relevant to the group and helped support the site). In the meantime I would like to poll group members about whether I should unlock the attachment ability for posting. I originally locked it down out of respect for people who were on boats or slow dial-up because it is way too easy to overload their quota with just one large photo. If there is someone who this would affect badly now, please let the group know in this informal poll. If it does not bother anyone, then I'd be happy to try unlocking the attachment ability for messages, as long as everyone works to keep said attachments small (ie don't attach something that is going to take a million years to download for our members who have dial-up connections). This means re-sizing photos for lower resolution (often there is no noticable effect). Sending a small photo that takes 425kb when it could be 42kb is an example I mean. If a file is really large then it should be put into the file section of group 1 or group 2, in any case. So let me know over the next few days as to Attachments "Yes" or Attachments "No" and I will alter settings accordingly if there is a strong feeling one way or another. Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 8172|8113|2005-06-16 07:15:17|seeratlas|Re: group mods|I also think that having attached photos in line with the messages would be too much. I'd much prefer the message be able to include a clickable link to a photo or other graphic in a "photos, files or other' separate directory on the site. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > Alex, > The difficulty with matching dial-up and broadband speeds will be with us > for a while I feel, and this has forced me (on dialup) to use webmail to > screen the mailbox prior to using the local client to collect. > If you want a large attachment on an item, it is then best downloaded by a > right-click, and 'save target as', --- which avoids the essential? +50% data > overhead if a client app. such as 'outlook' is the norm.. > This process certainly helps reduce the on-line time. > Browsing thumbnails is a possibility with those images of interest taken at > full file size? Unless the contributor has access to a file reduction > package (dimensions and algorithm), and knows the deal wrt the intent of the > image, it would be difficult to manage from an administrative POV? > Thumbs linked to full size is worth investigating? Those posting would spend > as much time as they cared to in the upload phase and those viewing would > have a choice. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex > Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2005 05:03 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] group mods > > I am taking into consideration Gerd's suggestions for easing the flow of > information and > data among group members. Something I have been looking into for a long > time is a > bulletin board on my own website (coming soon after launching of film) which > would allow > us complete freedom to create a forum exactly tailored to the needs of the > group, without > the need for advertising (although I wouldn't rule out a small banner type > of ad if it were > something completely relevant to the group and helped support the site). > > In the meantime I would like to poll group members about whether I should > unlock the > attachment ability for posting. I originally locked it down out of respect > for people who > were on boats or slow dial-up because it is way too easy to overload their > quota with just > one large photo. If there is someone who this would affect badly now, > please let the > group know in this informal poll. If it does not bother anyone, then I'd be > happy to try > unlocking the attachment ability for messages, as long as everyone works to > keep said > attachments small (ie don't attach something that is going to take a million > years to > download for our members who have dial-up connections). This means re-sizing > photos > for lower resolution (often there is no noticable effect). Sending a small > photo that takes > 425kb when it could be 42kb is an example I mean. If a file is really large > then it should be > put into the file section of group 1 or group 2, in any case. > > So let me know over the next few days as to Attachments "Yes" or Attachments > "No" and I > will alter settings accordingly if there is a strong feeling one way or > another. > > Alex > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 8173|8113|2005-06-16 15:15:45|kendall|Re: group mods|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I also think that having attached photos in line with the messages > would be too much. I'd much prefer the message be able to include a > clickable link to a photo or other graphic in a "photos, files or > other' separate directory on the site. > > seer > I agree, links are far better than attachments, if you set up a yahoo photo site or something similar then link to it it's going to be far more convenient for everyone, yahoo doesn't save attachments online, and with a link it makes it real nice when you have to search for an old post that shows some detail you NEED. also, in line it takes a lot of bandwidth for people who don't have dial up, to read the message you need to dl the photo too, with links you only dl the pic if it interests you. Would make it great if people would better describe what the photo is too,something other than a simple 'hey check this out!' Myself I compute from two locations mainly one is dsl, and the other is dial up, so it's 50/50 Ken.| 8174|8174|2005-06-16 16:24:12|mickeyolaf|Aluminum mast for sale|New aluminum 6.5"OD tube mast for sale. All 316 stainless fittings 47' tall with aluminum 3'10" spreaders. Aluminum mast steps. Deck stepped. Epoxy painted. Designed for Swain 36.| 8175|8087|2005-06-16 16:37:24|audeojude|Re: Electric Drives|I have seen this hinged arangement done.. see link http://www.stevproj.com/EMotorIdeas.html However I think I'm undecided wether I like it more than my slide up on rails idea. The minkota shafts on their motors are supposed to have a very large ability to bend when they hit something and then snap back. With the slides I think I can get the prop much deeper in the water so that when in waves or swells there is less of a chance of it coming out of the water and losing its propulsion. Also I won't have to deal with any issues of having to lock it down for reverse either. easy enough to do with rails and then if it breaks go to kick up. I think that I will try the rail idea first just because I haven't seen anyone talk about it yet. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Your thinking is much like mine. > I would consider hingeing your two 'minkotas' near the waterline with > a simple jackline to raise and lower them to the stern. That way if > you hit anything, they will simple kick up :) Course, you'll need some > way to pin them for reverse LOL. I'm sure that will work, one thing, > you'll want to get units that offer some pretty large props. Bigger > the better I think. > > :)seer | 8176|8087|2005-06-16 16:44:47|audeojude|Re: Electric Drives|Forgot to comment on this There have been favorible reports on power and battery life by using kort nozzles in conjunction with slightly bigger props... I don't think that you can use real large props on these units as the torque required to turn them is more than the these small motors can handle without over heating. So i've heard. however no telling what bug might bite me if i run accross a big prop that will fit :) scott one thing, > you'll want to get units that offer some pretty large props. Bigger > the better I think. > > :)seer | 8177|8113|2005-06-16 16:47:18|Alex Christie|Re: group mods|I think we need to work to the lowest common denominator at this point, which is dial-up. I remember we had troubles in the early years with plugging a few people's message boxes. The other problem is spam. I don't know for sure, but spammers avoid this group because they can't bombard us with advertising plus attachments, or worse, viruses. Maybe yahoo is better for stripping viruses now, I don't know. I am going to look at the boatbuilding.net site and see what we can use as a repository for links, and that way we can have a clickable link right in the text. Alex On 16-Jun-05, at 12:15 PM, kendall wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > I also think that having attached photos in line with the messages > > would be too much. I'd much prefer the message be able to� include a > > clickable link to a photo or other graphic in a "photos, files or > > other' separate directory on the site. > > > > seer > > > I agree, links are far better than attachments, if you set up a yahoo > photo site or something similar then link to it it's going to be far > more convenient for everyone, yahoo doesn't save attachments online, > and with a link it makes it real nice when you have to search for an > old post that shows some detail you NEED. also, in line it takes a lot > of bandwidth for people who don't have dial up, to read the message > you need to dl the photo too, with links you only dl the pic if it > interests you. > Would make it great if people would better describe what the photo is > too,something other than a simple 'hey check this out!' > > Myself I compute from two locations mainly one is dsl, and the other > is dial up, so it's 50/50 > > Ken. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > � To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > � > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > � > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8178|8113|2005-06-16 18:49:06|denis buggy|Re: Broaching|thank you gerd for your advice it is very helpful and i will submit my design before build to all and hopefully it will not appear too crazy . i have settled on a cat however I could transport a tri easier as I would make it in three sections for transport and final assembly/welding would take place at the launch site , so far the cat design has two hull sections and the remainder must be in three sections which can be transported to the site as it is not possible to transport a 25 ft wide structure on our roads , by its nature most of this will be bolted and welded and the construction method does not allow for large sections as I am trying to use steel off the shelf for structural strength to save time and money, the hull will never plane therefore I intend to use the simplest vee hull shape for ease of construction the wheel house will have to be lifted and bolted to the floor when assembly is complete and this design is deliberately sacrificing certain hull lines to make this the first kit assembly of a steel cat in the world which avails of existing steel box sections and other common steel structures in order that it be as strong and as ecominical to build as possible , many expensive yachts use a steel hull and alu superstructure to do as you advise however my budget wii not stretch to a alu build on top . since my hull shape will be a bit primitive i have nothing to compare it to however if I had the hull figures from a existing steel boat it would be a huge leap forward and my only method I can figure is to scale everything to a crude .06 thick sheets of galvanise to do a crude but accurate 1 tenth dummy run and see how it sits in the water and how it behaves in 6inch waves , thanks again Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Broaching --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > if anybody knows what i could expect from a steel multihull i would be greatful . To answer a bit blunt: the same that you could expect from any other multihull of the same weight... ;-) It's all about displacement. You can not reasonably build light in steel, and most multihull designs will try not to go for heavy displacement. Most, but not all... There are some designs that have a displacement that would be possible to re-produce with a steel design, from a certain size upward and sometimes with a lot of tweaking and some compromises. You would have to exclude all "unnessesary" steel panels, for example no solid plated foredeck instead of netting etc, you would have to make good on paying a bit more for lightweight materials for your insides, you might want to go for composite solutions like ply- epoxy for the cabin top etc. but I believe it is possible. Of course it's cheaper in the sense that the shell-material for a catamaran takes a much larger part in the overall weight (and therefore cost) than with a monohull. Building a multihull needs A LOT more shell-material and if you can save on that you win. What you would need to do is make yourself a rough overview: - Take a commercial off-the-shelf cruising cat, one that is rather on the heavy side. - from pictures and layout drawings in the docs, get a rough estimate of what surface this design has for hulls decks bridgedeck cabin and so on. - take out all superfluous areas and reduce the shell to the strict minimum for the same volume - assume plating for the hull to be 4mm, for deck etc 2,5 or 3mm, add some extra for strucure and calculate the weight for the entire shell. - deduct this from the commercial cat's displacement. With what is left you have to do all the rest, rig, equipment, gear, tanks... Variations would be comparisons with even heavier boats with known characteristics, or other radical moves to reduce your own displacment (more spartan interior, smaller tanks, ply decks....) If you want to add some real knowledge to the world and bring the admittedly biased discussion about steel multihulls on a higher and more enlightened level, you put it all into an excel sheet and publish it to our pool of wisdom in the file section ;-) Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8179|8128|2005-06-17 03:47:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: Using self drilling/ tapping screws for fixing lining strips|Gary, Wesley, Many thanks for your info. Regards, Ted| 8180|8087|2005-06-17 04:20:06|edward_stoneuk|Re: Electric Drives|Scott, I once rode on a oyster farmer's raft that was powered by slide mounted outboard. The raft was made of large polystyrene blocks, about 4' x 2'x 2' or more, held together in an angle iron frame. The outboard was clamped to an angle frame that was raised and lowered in slides by a wire cable around a hand operated winch. In the up position the propeller was level with the deck. In the lowered position the steering handle and throttle was level with the deck. From memory it was steered by using ones foot on the steering handle. The throttle being set. The owner designer was pleased enough with it. He had used it for some years, it was a bit dilapidated. I remember that when we stepped onto the raft the front rose up and one of the polystyrene blocks popped out and floated away. The oysterman said "Oh. Er I'll pick it up when we get back," and we sailed off without it to visit his oysterbeds. Regards, Ted| 8181|8087|2005-06-17 15:51:34|audeojude|Re: Electric Drives|Cool story, Talk about your utilitarian design. Sounds like it worked well. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Scott, > I once rode on a oyster farmer's raft that was powered by slide > mounted outboard. The raft was made of large polystyrene blocks, > about 4' x 2'x 2' or more, held together in an angle iron frame. The > outboard was clamped to an angle frame that was raised and lowered in > slides by a wire cable around a hand operated winch. In the up > position the propeller was level with the deck. In the lowered > position the steering handle and throttle was level with the deck. > From memory it was steered by using ones foot on the steering handle. > The throttle being set. The owner designer was pleased enough with > it. He had used it for some years, it was a bit dilapidated. I > remember that when we stepped onto the raft the front rose up and one > of the polystyrene blocks popped out and floated away. The oysterman > said "Oh. Er I'll pick it up when we get back," and we sailed off > without it to visit his oysterbeds. > Regards, > Ted | 8182|8182|2005-06-17 17:22:55|Gary|Stuffing Box|Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly up to floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by engine vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. (By the way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until I took it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I was on shore at the time. I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to keep water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you only have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I was sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I have also learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I am also surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially lethal item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a few screw threads. Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. Regards... Gary| 8183|8174|2005-06-17 19:32:54|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum mast for sale|Where is it located? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > New aluminum 6.5"OD tube mast for sale. All 316 stainless fittings 47' > tall with aluminum 3'10" spreaders. Aluminum mast steps. Deck stepped. > Epoxy painted. Designed for Swain 36. | 8184|8128|2005-06-17 19:37:21|brentswain38|Re: Using self drilling/ tapping screws for fixing lining strips|Jam a piece of plywood behid the angle, then screw your attachement into it right next to the stringer. That saves a lot of drilling and tapping ,and once the foam is in, it's going nowhere. Burn bolt holes in all your tabs before welding them in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Does any one have any experience or information in using self tapping > or self drilling/tapping screws for fixing lining strips and furniture > to steel tabs and angle welded inside the hull? It saves drilling > holes. Also for screwing down water tank tops. > Regards, > Ted | 8185|8091|2005-06-17 19:47:06|brentswain38|Re: back from barbados|Full length keels do little to help avoid broaching. As I mention in my book, a boat travels many keel lengths in the time it takes to broach. It only has to broach 5 degrees per keel length to broach 100 degrees in 20 keel lengths of travel, not very far in a boat thats surfing above hull speed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I am in basic agreement with what you have said. The model of your 36 that I have shows a forward section that looks like it would like to lift rather than submerge, and I think bows that tend to bury are at the heart of the problem. > I also notice that light weight dinghys do not broach, so weight for a given length must be a factor. > The burying bows I think would be on heavy displacement boats, and likely why these type of boats tend to have full keels to try and help with the broaching problem. So I think too much weight is a large part of the problem and as you suggest there is not a lot that can be done to fix it. > The latest Harberg Rassey 34 is finer in the bow and wider in the stern, but the stem at the waterline is a bit further forward. The displacement is moderate so they must feel that it is okay with this boat. > Many of the lighter boats have finer bows and wider sterns, but cruising boats by there very nature are heavier. I just can not see the reason for overly heavy as it just sinks the hull deeper. > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:33 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: back from barbados > > > Good hull balance ( a hull which will not go down in the bows and > rise in the stern when it heels) is a major factor in the downwind > control which will prevent a broach in the first place. Boats with > wide sterns and narrow bows will broach more readily regardless of > what their underbody shape is. > Brent > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8186|8182|2005-06-18 04:09:26|sae140|Re: Stuffing Box|Hi Gary - my 2 penny-worth: I agree that this is a vulnerable fitting, and posted an idea for a drip-free oil-filled stern-gland (with a stuffing-box for belt and braces) some time back. From memory, the consensus view was that such a fitting wasn't necessary, and that a simple stuffing box is adequate. By coincidence, I stumbed across the Vire site yesterday and have just finished downloading their manuals and parts lists. I've extracted a graphic of their stern tube, and have posted it in the OrigamiBoats Photos section under "Drive-Shaft info". It uses the same principle as my own idea - i.e. 2 aft-facing lip-seals either side of an inboard bearing - (proving that no idea is original !), except they have been using grease, not oil. I cannot find any reports of shaft seal failure, and as these little motors date back to the 1930's I think it's safe to say that the method works in practice. Personally, I'd still add a stuffing box (slackened right off) for emergency use - 'cause I recognise the consequences of seal failure, no matter how unlikely. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly up to > floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by engine > vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. (By the > way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until I took > it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I was on > shore at the time. > > I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to keep > water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you only > have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I was > sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. > > Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I have also > learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. > > In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box > immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I am also > surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially lethal > item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a few screw > threads. > > Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. > > Regards... Gary | 8187|8113|2005-06-18 14:09:19|Puck III|Re: Small Steel or Alu Cat - was Broaching :-)|Hi Denis , Seer has said it beautifully : you need to build what you want , and I want to ad : to know what you want or need , and expect usefull help , you should make a detailed wishlist or designgoal . Have a look & dream a bit : http://www.antoine.tv/francais/antoine/bateaux/bs.htm and visit the Photo Albums from - 12 Tonnes Banana Split Cat - Voyage ( see both boats together here ) The smallest size to design a seaworthy Cat would be 26ft to 28ft . ( sure to be designed in Origami :-) When I see a decent designgoal , I sure would give you some interesting directions Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I think the larger you go, the more likely the steel hull design > begins to make much more sense. Plus, origami hulls will keep the > weight substantially below the std. FRAMe FRAME FRAME construction > usually considered the norm for steel construction. Once you decide > to forego 30 knot planing ...lots of things become achievable in > steel. Then there is always alloy...If you want a mulithull (and you > have enough experience to KNOW that's what you want) then by all means > build a multi. This group is about building what YOU want, not what > everyone else says you should have...the caveat is that you really > need to have sufficient on the water experience with cats to have an > 'educated' opinion... > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > thank you Jim and Seer for your valuable advice I note the warning > by you both that the hull design is stable but inflexible with wind > and will not heel and spill energy when it is really necessary to do > so , this brings me to a core question I have been unable to research > , if I go ahead and build a steel multi hull which I am told no > self-respecting naval architect would design as its wetted surface > hull displacement will not allow the kind of speeds normally > attainable by a multihull > > and only a fool would be happy with the results , this fool would be > very happy with a stable motorsailor for costal exploration . however > I cannot find a source to relate what is the behaviour of a steel > multihull , is it less safe than a light displacement multihull or > more safe and why , this week in boat international the cover story is > the launch of the worlds first tri mega yacht complete with computer > controlled hydraulic constantly variable stabilisers / paddles for > mooring as its no fun at all playing pool in a busy harbour as you > all know well what an upset this can be, > > if anybody knows what i could expect from a steel multihull i would > be greatful . regards denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jim_both > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:34 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Broaching > > > > > > Hi Denis; > > > > I'm sure trimaran designs has come someway over the last forty years, > > but at this time Piver was an innovator with his designs and > > construction methods. There were a few problems; his boats wouldn't > > point because they were so light the waves kept knocking the bow(s) > > off the wind. The other problem was that they could slide down a wave > > and tend to dig in because the bows were very fine, so you had to be > > careful not to broach. The other thing is that they were so stable > > there was no give when hit by a gust to wind. They dealt with wind > > gusts by getting a spurt of speed. They didn't spill wind out of the > > sails and the rigging was like a tightly-wound spring. Scary! > > > > On the other hand when conditions were right they would surf, the > > rudder would hum, and they went like a bat out of hell. Exhilarating, > > but not the sort of boat we wanted to be on when too far out from > > shore.... In those days the only way we could get help was a WWII > > hand-operated SOS generator with an antenna carried aloft on a ballon. > > Jim > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > > dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful if you > > could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran design as > > all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . denis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Jim_both > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching > > > > > > > > > My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 years ago > > and > > > after a few close calls we abandoned the project and built a > > ferro > > > yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could not > > right > > > itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8188|8188|2005-06-18 14:37:26|seeratlas|Kort or Rice Nozzles|Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and the design philosophy and application thereof? I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems enough to merit investigation. From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster out. While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof wouldn't be all that difficult. Further, given the amount of garbage in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the 'junk' out of the prop. Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. Again, anyone know anything about these? thanks in advance ' seer.| 8189|8189|2005-06-18 14:49:40|zzuuwxajmc|Current News|I found this service that helped me refinance my home mortgage saving me thousands of dollars a year. Check out this free service. http://tpbaj.com/i/LzQvaW5kZXgvd2F6ZWUvOHpvMnIyZnEyaWNuOHE3czVhaTZr take 30 seconds and fill out this free form| 8190|8188|2005-06-18 16:16:04|Alex Christie|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Also, in relation to an electric drive, would a kort-type nozzle improve the efficiency of the prop to spool up more when it is being dragged for regeneration under sail? I am just visualizing all the force of the water making the prop turn because it cannot bleed off the tips of the prop, something that could be highly desireable. Someone mentioned rightly that the prop is not shaped optimally to work as a generating tubine when the water is going the wrong way through it, but perhaps this would make up for that loss of efficiency. I can see, however, if you choose not to free-wheel the prop when sailing with the Kort, then it'll be like dragging a giant bucket around. While I am complicating things, let's ponder a variable pitch prop, which would then allow one to either feather for no freewheeling or completely reverse for most efficient generation under sail. Like all things in boat design, there is always going to be a compromise encountered somewhere along the way, but it would be neat if we could find a workable solution to the electric drive question. Alex > Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and > the design philosophy and application thereof? > > I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow > moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency > increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems > enough to merit investigation. > > From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear > to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and > enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act > like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would > increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building > in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster > out. > > While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in > metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, > composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof > wouldn't be all that difficult.� Further, given the amount of garbage > in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm > wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the > circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and > stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the > 'junk' out of the prop. > > Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with > the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some > lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. > > Again, anyone know anything about these? > > thanks in advance > ' > seer. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > � To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > � > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > � > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8191|8182|2005-06-18 19:02:12|audeojude|Re: Stuffing Box|lol this is where the over the stern or side electric pods would kick ass :) no holes in the hull :) scott just couldn't resist the comment :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Gary - my 2 penny-worth: > > I agree that this is a vulnerable fitting, > and posted an idea for a drip-free oil-filled > stern-gland (with a stuffing-box for belt and > braces) some time back. From memory, the > consensus view was that such a fitting wasn't > necessary, and that a simple stuffing box is > adequate. > > > By coincidence, I stumbed across the Vire site > yesterday and have just finished downloading > their manuals and parts lists. I've extracted > a graphic of their stern tube, and have posted > it in the OrigamiBoats Photos section under > "Drive-Shaft info". > > It uses the same principle as my own idea - > i.e. 2 aft-facing lip-seals either side of an > inboard bearing - (proving that no idea is > original !), except they have been using grease, > not oil. > > I cannot find any reports of shaft seal failure, > and as these little motors date back to the > 1930's I think it's safe to say that the method > works in practice. > > Personally, I'd still add a stuffing box > (slackened right off) for emergency use - > 'cause I recognise the consequences of seal > failure, no matter how unlikely. > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly up to > > floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by engine > > vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. (By > the > > way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until I > took > > it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I was on > > shore at the time. > > > > I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to keep > > water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you only > > have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I was > > sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. > > > > Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I have > also > > learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. > > > > In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box > > immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I am > also > > surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially lethal > > item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a few > screw > > threads. > > > > Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. > > > > Regards... Gary | 8192|8113|2005-06-18 19:14:37|audeojude|Re: Small Steel or Alu Cat - was Broaching :-)|I wish i could find draft and sailing performance figures on that site :) also more pictures like building and interior. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Denis , Seer has said it beautifully : you need to build > what you want , and I want to ad : to know what you want > or need , and expect usefull help , you should make a > detailed wishlist or designgoal . > Have a look & dream a bit : > http://www.antoine.tv/francais/antoine/bateaux/bs.htm > and visit the Photo Albums from > - 12 Tonnes Banana Split Cat > - Voyage ( see both boats together here ) > The smallest size to design a seaworthy Cat would be > 26ft to 28ft . ( sure to be designed in Origami :-) > When I see a decent designgoal , I sure would give you > some interesting directions > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > I think the larger you go, the more likely the steel hull design > > begins to make much more sense. Plus, origami hulls will > keep the > > weight substantially below the std. FRAMe FRAME FRAME > construction > > usually considered the norm for steel construction. Once you > decide > > to forego 30 knot planing ...lots of things become achievable in > > steel. Then there is always alloy...If you want a mulithull (and > you > > have enough experience to KNOW that's what you want) then > by all means > > build a multi. This group is about building what YOU want, not > what > > everyone else says you should have...the caveat is that you > really > > need to have sufficient on the water experience with cats to > have an > > 'educated' opinion... > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > > thank you Jim and Seer for your valuable advice I note the > warning > > by you both that the hull design is stable but inflexible with wind > > and will not heel and spill energy when it is really necessary to > do > > so , this brings me to a core question I have been unable to > research > > , if I go ahead and build a steel multi hull which I am told no > > self-respecting naval architect would design as its wetted > surface > > hull displacement will not allow the kind of speeds normally > > attainable by a multihull > > > and only a fool would be happy with the results , this fool > would be > > very happy with a stable motorsailor for costal exploration . > however > > I cannot find a source to relate what is the behaviour of a steel > > multihull , is it less safe than a light displacement multihull or > > more safe and why , this week in boat international the cover > story is > > the launch of the worlds first tri mega yacht complete with > computer > > controlled hydraulic constantly variable stabilisers / paddles > for > > mooring as its no fun at all playing pool in a busy harbour as > you > > all know well what an upset this can be, > > > if anybody knows what i could expect from a steel multihull i > would > > be greatful . regards denis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: jim_both > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:34 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Broaching > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis; > > > > > > I'm sure trimaran designs has come someway over the last > forty years, > > > but at this time Piver was an innovator with his designs and > > > construction methods. There were a few problems; his > boats wouldn't > > > point because they were so light the waves kept knocking > the bow(s) > > > off the wind. The other problem was that they could slide > down a wave > > > and tend to dig in because the bows were very fine, so you > had to be > > > careful not to broach. The other thing is that they were so > stable > > > there was no give when hit by a gust to wind. They dealt with > wind > > > gusts by getting a spurt of speed. They didn't spill wind out > of the > > > sails and the rigging was like a tightly-wound spring. Scary! > > > > > > On the other hand when conditions were right they would > surf, the > > > rudder would hum, and they went like a bat out of hell. > Exhilarating, > > > but not the sort of boat we wanted to be on when too far out > from > > > shore.... In those days the only way we could get help was a > WWII > > > hand-operated SOS generator with an antenna carried aloft > on a ballon. > > > Jim > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > > > dear Jim I am in the pre build stage and would be grateful > if you > > > could relate what you found at fault out with a trimaran > design as > > > all ads for same portray them as the answer to all needs . > denis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Jim_both > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:53 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Broaching > > > > > > > > > > > > My friend and I built a Piver-designed ply trimaran 40 > years ago > > > and > > > > after a few close calls we abandoned the project and > built a > > > ferro > > > > yacht. To add insult to injury, the tri once broached could > not > > > right > > > > itself. I later learnt that Piver (S.F. bay) was lost at sea. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8193|8188|2005-06-18 21:42:09|seeratlas|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Brent has posted and I believe mentioned in his book that he has built a folding prop. This would solve the drag problem but not the regeneration problem. At present all I can envisage is a two blader, in a tight aperature,perhaps with a kort or rice nozzle. Now, my "off the top guestimation :) heheheh, one thing to remember is that for an electric, there seems to be universal concensus that you want a large prop, with large pitch, (again I recall that per Solomon Technologies, who has spent a lot of money and thus presumbably at least some substantive testing, have put a 20x18 on a 32k displacemnt 44 Cherubinin schooner. That prop is going to free wheel spin pretty well at anything over 4 or 5 knot sailin- certainly not with maximum efficiency, but i'd rather design for max efficiency for electric under power and be happy with whatever i can get back on the regenerative side. As Brent has noted, even an outboard motor prop which is clearly NOT designed for water turbine generative use, will spin like a demon when hung off the stern of a cruising sailboat. I wouldn't be too quick to discount the possibility of our electric prop doing the the same,and while not 'optimum' I'll bet it will provide significant power; And again, for pure sailing, have some way of indexing the shaft so that the prop is hidden in the aperature as much as possible when the shaft is locked down. I for one am confident that Alex's low speed manuevering around the harbor etc. criteria can easily be met; the issue becomes getting the capacity and power to overcome adverse weather and/or tide for any length of time. The DC motor is well suited to burst applications of full power substantially above its rated constant use, but horsepower is still horse power, whether diesel or electric and some way of handling the larger demands has to be accounted for. For me the on demand diesel generator is looking more and more like the most likely solution, otherwise the battery demands just get too out of hand. I can deal with 2k lbs of lead in batteries instead of the keels, but this involves a lot of tradeoffs: tradeoffs a lot of other captains will certainly not be interested in making. For Alex's more limited power requirements, I don't see why a small portable gas generator, say 2kw or so, couldn't be carried in a well vented deck or cockpit location for extending his operating capacity under more severe loads. I've known an awful lot of boat people who have carried the little honda units around for years and never had any real trouble with them, handy for running all sorts of tools and those extravagant Christmas boat parade lighting spectaculars too :) When you think about it, generally speaking if you are becalmed there is unlikely to be any substantial sea running so moderate electric power would more often than not do the trick. All bets are off in heavy tidal basins, or bucking island currents. When I think back over my years of sailing, I try to remember the occasions when I was compelled to emply full power. What I remember are, 1. burst power for manuevering out of the way of other ships who seemed either indifferent or inattentive, 2. burst power for negotiating those hellacious tidal whirlpools in several locations between Vancouver island and the mainland, 3. Deception pass-same situation, 4.Crossing an ocean/river bar in a mad rush, 5. medical emergency on board and no wind. 6. Off shore rescue attempt in heavy storm conditions and 7. Off shore running before the seas in survival conditions. (I could add a canoe trip my brother talked me into one time in Maine where we ended up in the middle of a lake in a storm where the lake was not "just 5 miles across, no problem", but instead "50 miles across!! JEsus, can't your read a map? " heheheh lot funnier now than it was then... In that last instance "emergency full power" was provided by two very concerned young men trying to stay stern to some rather alarmingly big and fast moving lake waves in the middle of a driving thunderstorm. If you havn't surfed an open canoe under such conditions I can tell you its something you will remember the rest of your life, but not an experience I can recommend, but back to what i was thinking... In short, the occasions when full power were required were an extremely small fraction of the time spent on the boat, incredibly small now that I think back..with some careful planning, a lot of those could have been avoided and by far most of them required only a few minutes of full power, if not just seconds...So... designing a mostly battery demand system for 3 to 4 knot getting in and out of the harbor and manuevering at dockside begins to look more and more doable, and pleasurable as well. But again, when you start looking at bucking an adverse current for any length of time,in either a river or the Pac Norwest, the game changes substantially and substantial power for hours not minutes becomes the primary design criteria. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Also, in relation to an electric drive, would a kort-type nozzle > improve the efficiency of the prop to spool up more when it is being > dragged for regeneration under sail? I am just visualizing all the > force of the water making the prop turn because it cannot bleed off the > tips of the prop, something that could be highly desireable. Someone > mentioned rightly that the prop is not shaped optimally to work as a > generating tubine when the water is going the wrong way through it, but > perhaps this would make up for that loss of efficiency. > > I can see, however, if you choose not to free-wheel the prop when > sailing with the Kort, then it'll be like dragging a giant bucket > around. While I am complicating things, let's ponder a variable pitch > prop, which would then allow one to either feather for no freewheeling > or completely reverse for most efficient generation under sail. Like > all things in boat design, there is always going to be a compromise > encountered somewhere along the way, but it would be neat if we could > find a workable solution to the electric drive question. > > Alex > > > > Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and > > the design philosophy and application thereof? > > > > I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow > > moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency > > increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems > > enough to merit investigation. > > > > From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear > > to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and > > enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act > > like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would > > increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building > > in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster > > out. > > > > While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in > > metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, > > composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof > > wouldn't be all that difficult. Further, given the amount of garbage > > in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm > > wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the > > circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and > > stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the > > 'junk' out of the prop. > > > > Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with > > the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some > > lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. > > > > Again, anyone know anything about these? > > > > thanks in advance > > ' > > seer. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8194|8194|2005-06-18 23:58:13|seeratlas|Another Idea|Hmmm, What about a commercial submersible pump motor? hp becomes no problem. Industrial use engineering for adverse fluid conditions including things lots worse than plain old seawater. Designed for the express purpose of pushing large volumes of water under high pressure, longevity, and minimal if any maintenance, Assuming a suitable mount could be fabricated, and an adapter to fit a prop to the output shaft made, several possibilites are raised. At the very least no shaft would be needed to pierce the hull, the issue would then become one of deciding whether to fix mount the motor or put it on a turnable shaft for increased manueverability, something like a giant MinnKota. I'll have to explore this further. :) seer| 8195|8174|2005-06-19 02:56:23|mickeyolaf|Re: Aluminum mast for sale|Burnaby, BC. 778-837-5725 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Where is it located? > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > New aluminum 6.5"OD tube mast for sale. All 316 stainless fittings > 47' > > tall with aluminum 3'10" spreaders. Aluminum mast steps. Deck > stepped. > > Epoxy painted. Designed for Swain 36. | 8196|8196|2005-06-19 03:45:19|edward_stoneuk|Skeg depth|Alex, In the photos of your skeg it appears a bit shorter than some. Is this so that it matches the draft of the twin keels? Regards, Ted| 8197|8182|2005-06-19 05:15:07|sae140|Re: Stuffing Box|Yeh - ok :-) I've no problem with the concept of pods over the side when entering or leaving harbour on a fine sunny day - or pratting about on a lake - but when the seas are up and you're battling against an adverse tide, perhaps for hours on end ? I wouldn't want anything but a fossil-fuel motor under those conditions. But Gary is right - considering how serious through- hull failure is, it's surprising that this subject has attracted so little attention. Traditionally, skin fittings have been secured with double hose clamps, plus have a conical wooden wedge secured nearby, in case of fitting failure. So it's been appreciated that such fitting failure is important enough to have a secondary means of keeping water out of the hull. But not so the stuffing box - only one line of defence there ! Seals plus a stuffing box would give you two, plus a drip-free fitting as a bonus. Even the latest whizzo ceramic/stainless-steel drip- free jobs have only one line of defence. For some reason I keep thinking about the Titanic ... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > lol this is where the over the stern or side electric pods would kick > ass :) no holes in the hull :) > > scott > > just couldn't resist the comment :) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Hi Gary - my 2 penny-worth: > > > > I agree that this is a vulnerable fitting, > > and posted an idea for a drip-free oil-filled > > stern-gland (with a stuffing-box for belt and > > braces) some time back. From memory, the > > consensus view was that such a fitting wasn't > > necessary, and that a simple stuffing box is > > adequate. > > > > > > By coincidence, I stumbed across the Vire site > > yesterday and have just finished downloading > > their manuals and parts lists. I've extracted > > a graphic of their stern tube, and have posted > > it in the OrigamiBoats Photos section under > > "Drive-Shaft info". > > > > It uses the same principle as my own idea - > > i.e. 2 aft-facing lip-seals either side of an > > inboard bearing - (proving that no idea is > > original !), except they have been using grease, > > not oil. > > > > I cannot find any reports of shaft seal failure, > > and as these little motors date back to the > > 1930's I think it's safe to say that the method > > works in practice. > > > > Personally, I'd still add a stuffing box > > (slackened right off) for emergency use - > > 'cause I recognise the consequences of seal > > failure, no matter how unlikely. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly up to > > > floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by engine > > > vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. (By > > the > > > way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until I > > took > > > it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I was on > > > shore at the time. > > > > > > I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to keep > > > water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you only > > > have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I was > > > sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. > > > > > > Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I have > > also > > > learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. > > > > > > In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box > > > immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I am > > also > > > surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially lethal > > > item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a few > > screw > > > threads. > > > > > > Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. > > > > > > Regards... Gary | 8198|8188|2005-06-19 06:29:43|denis buggy|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|dear seer a prop in water or air will have a certain design discipline as a air prop should not exceed the speed of sound at the tip and the centre of the prop has little or no influence . in water a similar discipline exists as cavitation must be avoided. both air and water have met with the contra rotating prop this takes advantage of several factors to raise efficiecy and Volvo have just launched their forward facing contrarotating prop this year however it is an half century old aero trick which had huge maintaince problems as a separate gearbox is required , your shroud turns the prop into a turbine and that is a different animal altogether you have a lot to keep track of if you simply put a shroud around a prop , you can have boundary layer conflicts at different revs and you can lose effiency easier than gain . however if you can copy or buy a matched prop to shroud you will win however it may not be reverse friendly and have other problems , regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 7:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Kort or Rice Nozzles Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and the design philosophy and application thereof? I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems enough to merit investigation. From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster out. While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof wouldn't be all that difficult. Further, given the amount of garbage in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the 'junk' out of the prop. Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. Again, anyone know anything about these? thanks in advance ' seer. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8199|8188|2005-06-19 06:52:29|denis buggy|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|dear Alex I who have no experience in sea matters would advise you to depend on all electric generation from a wind source as you can use a large array of efficient devices to do so and your current will be producing at rest in harbour if you wish and your prop can be immersed in the water on a long shaft like the bankok boat drive system which simply lifts out of the water when not in use . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Kort or Rice Nozzles Also, in relation to an electric drive, would a kort-type nozzle improve the efficiency of the prop to spool up more when it is being dragged for regeneration under sail? I am just visualizing all the force of the water making the prop turn because it cannot bleed off the tips of the prop, something that could be highly desireable. Someone mentioned rightly that the prop is not shaped optimally to work as a generating tubine when the water is going the wrong way through it, but perhaps this would make up for that loss of efficiency. I can see, however, if you choose not to free-wheel the prop when sailing with the Kort, then it'll be like dragging a giant bucket around. While I am complicating things, let's ponder a variable pitch prop, which would then allow one to either feather for no freewheeling or completely reverse for most efficient generation under sail. Like all things in boat design, there is always going to be a compromise encountered somewhere along the way, but it would be neat if we could find a workable solution to the electric drive question. Alex > Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and > the design philosophy and application thereof? > > I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow > moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency > increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems > enough to merit investigation. > > From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear > to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and > enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act > like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would > increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building > in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster > out. > > While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in > metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, > composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof > wouldn't be all that difficult. Further, given the amount of garbage > in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm > wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the > circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and > stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the > 'junk' out of the prop. > > Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with > the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some > lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. > > Again, anyone know anything about these? > > thanks in advance > ' > seer. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > . To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > . Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 8200|8188|2005-06-19 08:34:29|seeratlas|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|denis, I'm not entirely sure I'm getting your point. Speed of sound at the tip of an air prop is not entirely my problem :) I'm also not entirely convinced that prop center diameter does not effect the dynamics. I was thinking of experimenting with cones. Cavitation is certainly something to be avoided, but something of concern in a shallow boat like the Swain bilge keel designs, especially with a larger diameter prop which will come nearer the surface. I would think the shroud would benefit here. I'm not clear on what you mean by a "contra rotating prop" unless you mean the one with essentially two props on a concentric shaft, each operating in opposite directions. My understanding from a dealer was that the primary purpose was to get straight 'push' and eliminate the inductive torque steering you get with any rotating prop, and supposedly get slightly more efficiency. I'm not sure these claims have borne out, but in any event, I am not proposing such a setup. I guess what your post is suggesting is that my prop must be matched to the shroud. I would have to aggree with that. Researching the desired clearance between prop tip and shroud shouldn't be difficult, it appears that a lot of research has been done in this area. As for reverse, I would think at the prop speeds I"m talking about, nearly any shroud is going to substantially reduce energy loss off the prop tip end, and reverse is not my main concern as the instant-on torque of the a dc motor will provide vastly greater seat of the pants power in reverse over the diesel, so I can afford some loss of efficiency and still be way ahead. Other problems could be anticipated additional drag, but I've already expressed my thoughts on that. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear seer a prop in water or air will have a certain design discipline as a air prop should not exceed the speed of sound at the tip and the centre of the prop has little or no influence . > in water a similar discipline exists as cavitation must be avoided. > both air and water have met with the contra rotating prop this takes advantage of several factors to raise efficiecy and Volvo have just launched their forward facing contrarotating prop this year however it is an half century old aero trick which had huge maintaince problems as a separate gearbox is required , your shroud turns the prop into a turbine and that is a different animal altogether you have a lot to keep track of if you simply put a shroud around a prop , > you can have boundary layer conflicts at different revs and you can lose effiency easier than gain . however if you can copy or buy a matched prop to shroud you will win however it may not be reverse friendly and have other problems , regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 7:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Kort or Rice Nozzles > > > Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and > the design philosophy and application thereof? > > I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow > moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency > increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems > enough to merit investigation. > > From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear > to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and > enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act > like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would > increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building > in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster out. > > While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in > metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, > composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof > wouldn't be all that difficult. Further, given the amount of garbage > in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm > wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the > circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and > stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the > 'junk' out of the prop. > > Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with > the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some > lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. > > Again, anyone know anything about these? > > thanks in advance > ' > seer. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8201|8194|2005-06-19 13:30:02|Bruce Dillahunty|Re: Another Idea|seeratlas wrote: > Hmmm, > What about a commercial submersible pump motor? hp becomes no problem. > Industrial use engineering for adverse fluid conditions including > things lots worse than plain old seawater. Designed for the express > purpose of pushing large volumes of water under high pressure, > longevity, and minimal if any maintenance, > > Assuming a suitable mount could be fabricated, and an adapter to fit a > prop to the output shaft made, several possibilites are raised. At the > very least no shaft would be needed to pierce the hull, the issue > would then become one of deciding whether to fix mount the motor or > put it on a turnable shaft for increased manueverability, something > like a giant MinnKota. I'll have to explore this further. :) > > seer > > > I've thought of mounting a hydraulic motor like this (giant MinnKota)... then have the manueverability and ability to mount the put/motor/generator wherever and just run a hose. Bruce| 8202|8188|2005-06-19 17:33:42|denis buggy|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|dear seer i was merely pointing you to the solution volvo have put their shirt on and they claim effincies of 30% ish and have rejected all other methods in favour of this , regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 1:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles denis, I'm not entirely sure I'm getting your point. Speed of sound at the tip of an air prop is not entirely my problem :) I'm also not entirely convinced that prop center diameter does not effect the dynamics. I was thinking of experimenting with cones. Cavitation is certainly something to be avoided, but something of concern in a shallow boat like the Swain bilge keel designs, especially with a larger diameter prop which will come nearer the surface. I would think the shroud would benefit here. I'm not clear on what you mean by a "contra rotating prop" unless you mean the one with essentially two props on a concentric shaft, each operating in opposite directions. My understanding from a dealer was that the primary purpose was to get straight 'push' and eliminate the inductive torque steering you get with any rotating prop, and supposedly get slightly more efficiency. I'm not sure these claims have borne out, but in any event, I am not proposing such a setup. I guess what your post is suggesting is that my prop must be matched to the shroud. I would have to aggree with that. Researching the desired clearance between prop tip and shroud shouldn't be difficult, it appears that a lot of research has been done in this area. As for reverse, I would think at the prop speeds I"m talking about, nearly any shroud is going to substantially reduce energy loss off the prop tip end, and reverse is not my main concern as the instant-on torque of the a dc motor will provide vastly greater seat of the pants power in reverse over the diesel, so I can afford some loss of efficiency and still be way ahead. Other problems could be anticipated additional drag, but I've already expressed my thoughts on that. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear seer a prop in water or air will have a certain design discipline as a air prop should not exceed the speed of sound at the tip and the centre of the prop has little or no influence . > in water a similar discipline exists as cavitation must be avoided. > both air and water have met with the contra rotating prop this takes advantage of several factors to raise efficiecy and Volvo have just launched their forward facing contrarotating prop this year however it is an half century old aero trick which had huge maintaince problems as a separate gearbox is required , your shroud turns the prop into a turbine and that is a different animal altogether you have a lot to keep track of if you simply put a shroud around a prop , > you can have boundary layer conflicts at different revs and you can lose effiency easier than gain . however if you can copy or buy a matched prop to shroud you will win however it may not be reverse friendly and have other problems , regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 7:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Kort or Rice Nozzles > > > Does anyone here have any experience with either of these things and > the design philosophy and application thereof? > > I've noticed that a lot of tugs and other ships that spin big slow > moving props use these things a lot and the claimed efficiency > increases seem substantial, upwards of 10 to 16percent, which seems > enough to merit investigation. > > From what I've been able to see just by looking at them, they appear > to be simply a wing shaped foil bent around into a circle and > enclosing the prop. My initial assesment is that they are going to act > like a venturi as they seem to grow smaller front to rear, this would > increase the speed of the water flow out the rear, the effect building > in effect as the boat gains steerageway, i.e, faster in, even faster out. > > While I could see where trying to just hand fab one of these up in > metal would be daunting task, I would think that a carved foam, > composite hand layup in fibreglass, kevlar or some combination thereof > wouldn't be all that difficult. Further, given the amount of garbage > in the harbor waters these days, as well as in the canals...I'm > wondering if some longitudinal runners from the skeg to the > circumference of the nozzle might serve not only to strengthen and > stabilize the nozzle, but also serve to help keep at least some of the > 'junk' out of the prop. > > Lastly, the prop being essentially enclosed, I would think that with > the largish prop I would need to run on the electric drive, that some > lessening of surface cavitation might be a further beneficial effect. > > Again, anyone know anything about these? > > thanks in advance > ' > seer. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8203|8182|2005-06-19 20:30:52|jim dorey|Re: Stuffing Box|On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 06:14:49 -0300, sae140 wrote: > For some reason I keep thinking about the Titanic ... > > Colin yaknow, there's a lot of engines that have been modified for swamp duty, ferexample, range rovers often have snorkels and other stuff. if you put in a bulkhead and cover the engine bay with a water tight hatch you could prepare the engine to run submerged for years at a time, some dielectric grease on terminals, electrical components belt mounted in an inverted box, things should do great. the bay could be large enough to use as storage. so if it leaks the bilge pump would take care of it, if the engine quits then it gets submerged, but not flooded, could start it up while underwater if needed. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8204|8188|2005-06-19 22:44:42|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|"Maritime Research Institute Netherlands (MARIN) has been dedicated to furthering maritime understanding and knowledge since 1932." -according to their web site, www.marin.nl, and they are responsible for the extensive testing of nozzle and propeller designs that is documented in the "Principals of Naval Architecture". This is the Bible for ship builders and expensive to buy, but you can get it through inter-library loan if your one of the mathematical masochistic types. The Marin Nozzle No. 37 is specifically designed to work best with forward thrust at a small expense for working pretty good when reversing thrust. The Marin 19A is best for forward speed only. You get a performance increase using any prop, but the Ka-Series was designed for the Kort nozzle and the Ka-4-70 is best suited for uses with the Marin 19A. The wide blade tip reduces blade tip cavitation, and the pitch can be adjusted to suite the power. The advantage of the Kort is derived from Bernouille's principle continuity equation for incompressible flow. Basically some guy figured out that as fluid is sucked into a space that gets smaller, the fluid will start moving faster. So in a Kort nozzle the water accelerates even before it reaches the prop, which makes the props job easier and thus more efficient. I have some of the designs posted on my web site, www.submarineboat.com under "Thrusters and Battery", then scroll down to Kortz Nozzels. I hope that helps -- Doug Jackson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8205|8188|2005-06-19 23:08:53|Larry Doyle|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Check out this site for a comparison of the kort and rice nozzles. www.olds.com.au/marine/nozzles/ Larry| 8206|8194|2005-06-19 23:21:15|seeratlas|Re: Another Idea|Bruce, any idea what the efficiency of a hydraulic is? I was under the impression that its not great. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Dillahunty wrote: > seeratlas wrote: > > Hmmm, > > What about a commercial submersible pump motor? hp becomes no problem. > > Industrial use engineering for adverse fluid conditions including > > things lots worse than plain old seawater. Designed for the express > > purpose of pushing large volumes of water under high pressure, > > longevity, and minimal if any maintenance, > > > > Assuming a suitable mount could be fabricated, and an adapter to fit a > > prop to the output shaft made, several possibilites are raised. At the > > very least no shaft would be needed to pierce the hull, the issue > > would then become one of deciding whether to fix mount the motor or > > put it on a turnable shaft for increased manueverability, something > > like a giant MinnKota. I'll have to explore this further. :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > I've thought of mounting a hydraulic motor like this (giant MinnKota)... > then have the manueverability and ability to mount the > put/motor/generator wherever and just run a hose. > > Bruce | 8207|8188|2005-06-19 23:25:20|seeratlas|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Thanks a bunch :) I'm going to take some time to really look into this thing :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@a... wrote: > "Maritime Research Institute Netherlands (MARIN) has been dedicated to > furthering maritime understanding and knowledge since 1932." -according to their > web site, www.marin.nl, and they are responsible for the extensive testing of > nozzle and propeller designs that is documented in the "Principals of Naval > Architecture". This is the Bible for ship builders and expensive to buy, but you > can get it through inter-library loan if your one of the mathematical > masochistic types. The Marin Nozzle No. 37 is specifically designed to work best with > forward thrust at a small expense for working pretty good when reversing > thrust. The Marin 19A is best for forward speed only. You get a performance > increase using any prop, but the Ka-Series was designed for the Kort nozzle and the > Ka-4-70 is best suited for uses with the Marin 19A. The wide blade tip > reduces blade tip cavitation, and the pitch can be adjusted to suite the power. > The advantage of the Kort is derived from Bernouille's principle continuity > equation for incompressible flow. Basically some guy figured out that as fluid is > sucked into a space that gets smaller, the fluid will start moving faster. So > in a Kort nozzle the water accelerates even before it reaches the prop, which > makes the props job easier and thus more efficient. > > I have some of the designs posted on my web site, www.submarineboat.com under > "Thrusters and Battery", then scroll down to Kortz Nozzels. > > I hope that helps > -- Doug Jackson > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8208|8188|2005-06-20 00:02:40|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Some great info and here are some other thoughts. A relatively short strait tube would have some increase in eficancy by eliminating tip spill and work as well in eather direction. in shallow draft sucking air could be a problem if not submerged enoigh. Jon| 8209|8188|2005-06-20 10:27:19|Jeff Halpern|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Kort nozzles make a lot of sense in situations where a lot of thrust is necessary and prop diameter space is limited. Unless you expect to spend the vast majority of your time motoring vs sailing, kort nozzles make no sense on sailboats where the enormous drag of dragging the nozzle through the water really kills performance, especially in light air and is an impediment to heavy air safety. Jeff| 8210|8182|2005-06-20 13:39:07|Gary|Re: Stuffing Box|Hello Colin... The following is a link to a dripless packing product. Just wondering if anyone out there is actually using this product or similar. http://www.oxlic.com/Products/Dripless_Stuffing_Box/dripless_stuffing _box.html Regards... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Gary - my 2 penny-worth: > > I agree that this is a vulnerable fitting, > and posted an idea for a drip-free oil-filled > stern-gland (with a stuffing-box for belt and > braces) some time back. From memory, the > consensus view was that such a fitting wasn't > necessary, and that a simple stuffing box is > adequate. > > > By coincidence, I stumbed across the Vire site > yesterday and have just finished downloading > their manuals and parts lists. I've extracted > a graphic of their stern tube, and have posted > it in the OrigamiBoats Photos section under > "Drive-Shaft info". > > It uses the same principle as my own idea - > i.e. 2 aft-facing lip-seals either side of an > inboard bearing - (proving that no idea is > original !), except they have been using grease, > not oil. > > I cannot find any reports of shaft seal failure, > and as these little motors date back to the > 1930's I think it's safe to say that the method > works in practice. > > Personally, I'd still add a stuffing box > (slackened right off) for emergency use - > 'cause I recognise the consequences of seal > failure, no matter how unlikely. > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly up to > > floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by engine > > vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. (By > the > > way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until I > took > > it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I was on > > shore at the time. > > > > I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to keep > > water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you only > > have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I was > > sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. > > > > Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I have > also > > learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. > > > > In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box > > immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I am > also > > surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially lethal > > item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a few > screw > > threads. > > > > Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. > > > > Regards... Gary | 8211|8194|2005-06-20 16:14:23|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Another Idea|seeratlas wrote: >Bruce, >any idea what the efficiency of a hydraulic is? I was under the >impression that its not great. >seer > > Not really... Seems like I had something around here, but can't lay hands on it. There were expressed concerns about: 1) Using bio-degradable fluid to help if there is a spill 2) Make sure that you have enough fluid for a replacement if you blow a hose 3) Some units are unacceptably noisy... high pitched whine being the common complaint. I have mostly dealt with this on tractors, where there is so much other noise it didn't matter. You did gain the same advantages of an engine running in its "sweet spot" at constant speed, and apparently good torque. I had these links saved: Fixing the Hydraulic Propulsion on our Prout Catam [2] http://www.vonwentzel.net/Prout/01.Propulsion/04.Hydraulics-Design/ Hydraulic Tutorials [0] http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html HYDRAULICS [0] http://home.planet.nl/~brink494/frm_e.htm Hydraulic pumps save Hong Kong yachts from damage - Parker Hannifin - Hydraulics Group [0] http://www.engineeringtalk.com/news/pxv/pxv103.html Hydraulic Propulsion - Boat Design Forums [0] http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4674 Willkommen bei Diport, Yachthydraulik [0] http://www.diport.ch/products.html Basic Hydraulics [0] http://www.sweethaven.com/academic/lessons/mechTech/hydraulics01/moduleMain.asp?whichMod=0101 I also have a *.pdf or a very good Army Hydraulic's intro publication/training manual if you have a private (non-group) address I could send it to. Bruce| 8212|8188|2005-06-20 16:58:14|audeojude|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|All the more reason to design with transom or side hung engine pods :) You don't leave anything in the water when not using it :) lets start a list of advantages and disadvantages of electric drive pods that go over the side.. advantages 1. no holes in hull 2. when not in use no disturbance of water flow around hull 3. ease of access to motor and prop on transom 4. flexability in design and altering design at later dates 5. silent operation 6. even if generator/diesel dies you still should have minimum 1 hr battery life for propulsion. disadvantages 1. more complex overall system with batteries and generator 2. in rough water if pod is not deep enough it would tend to act like outboard and come out of water. 3. greater expense in higher HP ranges ok lets get someone else to add some... :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern wrote: > Kort nozzles make a lot of sense in situations where a lot of thrust is > necessary and prop diameter space is limited. Unless you expect to > spend the vast majority of your time motoring vs sailing, kort nozzles > make no sense on sailboats where the enormous drag of dragging the > nozzle through the water really kills performance, especially in light > air and is an impediment to heavy air safety. > > Jeff | 8213|7831|2005-06-20 20:46:59|cpopadentschuk|Re: Good Seamanship in boatbuilding & design .|In thinking about building and designing my new boat origami style. Thats wy I came here. And this post horrifies me. Ancors and their chain is a question of weight. There is no way to get all arround that. Patent anchors of any kind save weight, but once you lift the chain it will break free. No way arround that. Steel wire in salt water will corode and fast so as one single file is tiny. losing 1 milimeter off your chain is ok. but loosing it off each strand of a wire? Even stainless steel will not help. it is more succeptible to electolysis, and bending. Why do the people in the pacific have the problems with the chain? are they switching to thicker material chain? my guess. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > For long ocean passages I like to cat my anchors and bring them more > amidships. However for coastal cruising, good seamanship means having > the anchors readily accessible, with the most reliable ( Simplist) > anchoring system available. Wire rope is one seventh the weight of > chain and far more structurally reliable. Storing it on a reel gives > one the ultimate in control overr the rode and it doesn't paricularly > matter what gysy it fits. I've met people all over the Pacific having > major problems matching chain to a given size gypsy. Snarl a chain in > a chain locker( a common enough problem) when trying to get off a lee > shore and you are in real trouble, especially with larger boats. This > is a non issue with a reel winch. Commercial boats on the BC coast , > fishing in all weather, have used nothing but reel winches for the > last century. > Trying to reduce weight in the ends by putting anchors and other > anchoring gear in inaccesible locations is bad seamanship.Using a > winch which has a lot of difficult to access parts built in is also > bad seamanship. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > you might add "centered" to "low", old Ben ;-) even old Bernard > from > > Josua realized that he was better off by keeping the ends light. > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > Hobbyhorsing & pitching act as a major break on any boat. > > > > > > For safety ,weight should be carried & stowed as low as > > > possible in any sailboat to enhance : > > > - reduction of ritmic pitching & > > > - righting moment . > > > > > > I think some anchor lifting systems , as seen in the Photo > > > section in this Group , need some serious rethinking . > > > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong . > > > > > > Old Ben | 8214|8188|2005-06-21 02:07:47|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern wrote: > Kort nozzles make a lot of sense in situations where a lot of thrust is > necessary and prop diameter space is limited. This is not true they where first used on tugs or towboats with large props to get more power for fual used. Unless you expect to > spend the vast majority of your time motoring vs sailing, kort nozzles > make no sense on sailboats where the enormous drag of dragging the > nozzle through the water really kills performance, especially in light > air and is an impediment to heavy air safety. True but more and more boats that are not sail are being made in a Origami style where they do make sense. Not all of us here are interested in sailing around the world by wind but rather saving time and weight on steelhulls for prop or sternwheel boats of some size Jon > > Jon | 8215|8215|2005-06-21 05:12:13|jim_both|Dinghy|Although not strictly origami (but frameless), there's available a complete set of free plans for a pram-style sailing dinghy the group may be interested in at: http://www.bateau2.com/free/D5_free_US.PDF I made a paper model of it. Tt looks suitable to be nested and made of 1/8" aluminium. The total length nested is 4' and each half made of aluminium would weigh just over 50lbs. Also worth a look for nested dinghy is: http://yachtvalhalla.net/gecko/gecko.html Jim| 8216|8182|2005-06-21 07:46:52|sae140|Re: Stuffing Box|In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > Hello Colin... > > The following is a link to a dripless packing product. Just > wondering if anyone out there is actually using this product or > similar. > http://www.oxlic.com/Products/Dripless_Stuffing_Box/dripless_stuffing > _box.html > > Regards... Gary Hi Gary haven't seen this brand before - my only experience with packing is restricted to the old-fashioned greasy flax, although I've heard of teflon/ p.t.f.e. being used - but dunno how good the hi-tech stuff is in the long term. There are two styles of stuffing box, and in your original post you mentioned a locking nut - so that suggests you have the style similar to a pipe compression fitting (except it has a locknut). As you point out, it relies upon sufficient threads being exposed/available to pull down on the packing - if there's not, presumably the only solution is to remove some of it ? This design sometimes requires special spanners for adjustment: http://www.alberg30.org/maintenance/MechanicalPropulsion/ StuffingBoxWrenches/customWrench.html The other style of stuffing box has a couple of studs external to the female half of the box, which are used to pull the male outer fitting into the female. With this fitting it's easy enough to fit Nylock nuts if vibration causes problems. This style of fitting is easy to adjust using just one hand and a regular spanner - so it's a much better fitting for confined spaces. It's also completely immune from any possibility of tightening or unscrewing from shaft rotation. I mention this for the benefit of anyone building - but it doesn't help you much. There's one possible solution to your situation, and that's to retrofit a lip seal into the stuffing box itself, which could then be treated to a dose of thread sealant ? There are illustrations of this on: http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/07-html/7-9.html (not a marine site), should you want to go down this route. There is a modified stuffing box design called a 'lantern', if memory serves, which has a spacer fitted between two areas of packing. A hole runs through the fitting to the spacer, through which oil or grease is pumped in to lube the packing. Best of luck. Colin| 8217|8217|2005-06-21 10:30:11|Jim Ragsdale|more electric propulsion|Came across this post while browsing some forums. It is by a fellow that has electric propulsion on his sailboat: | 8218|8188|2005-06-21 10:49:09|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|I actually worked on the design of one of the first tugs to use a Kort nozzle built in the US. The reason that we went to a kort nozzle was because of tip clearance issues. A larger diameter propeller actually would have been far more efficient than the Kort Nozzle, but the combination of the larger diameter propeller and the required tip clearances for the larger propeller pushed us to using the Kort Nozzle to maintain a reasonable draft and prop-shaft angle. The Kort nozzle did result in somewhat greater efficiency than we would have gotten out of the smaller diameter propeller without the Kort Nozzle. With regards to your second point, I think that we are in agreement. At the point at which I entered the discussion, it appeared to be about using a Kort Nozzle on a sailboat and that was what I was commenting upon. Our points would seem to be the same since obviously, a power boat would "expect to spend the vast majority of your time motoring vs sailing". Respectfully, Jeff Quoting "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" : > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Halpern > wrote: > > Kort nozzles make a lot of sense in situations where a lot of thrust > is > > necessary and prop diameter space is limited. > > This is not true they where first used on tugs or towboats with large > props to get more power for fual used. > > Unless you expect to > > spend the vast majority of your time motoring vs sailing, kort > nozzles > > make no sense on sailboats where the enormous drag of dragging the > > nozzle through the water really kills performance, especially in > light > > air and is an impediment to heavy air safety. > > True but more and more boats that are not sail are being made in a > Origami style where they do make sense. Not all of us here are > interested in sailing around the world by wind but rather saving time > and weight on steelhulls for prop or sternwheel boats of some size > > Jon > > > > Jon > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8219|8215|2005-06-21 11:10:32|Puck III|Re: Dinghy|Hi Jim ,thanks for the fine Links , great plan and product presentations a free eBook by bateau2.com , and great pics in html format for a fine nestingdinghy in 1 post. I realy appreciate it. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Although not strictly origami (but frameless), there's available a > complete set of free plans for a pram-style sailing dinghy the group > may be interested in at: > > http://www.bateau2.com/free/D5_free_US.PDF > > I made a paper model of it. Tt looks suitable to be nested and made > of > 1/8" aluminium. The total length nested is 4' and each half made of > aluminium would weigh just over 50lbs. > > Also worth a look for nested dinghy is: > > http://yachtvalhalla.net/gecko/gecko.html > > Jim | 8220|8220|2005-06-21 11:48:51|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Stuffing boxes|Brent is right. tap a hole into the stuffing box, attach a line to a greese gun mounted by the helm in the cockpit & run regular greese through it. one pump every hour insures good lube & minimal, if any, entry of salt h2o. Worked well for me for 3 years. Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8221|8188|2005-06-21 12:27:05|put_to_sea|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|With all this talk about kort nozzles, I got to thinking (and this can be a dangerous thing). Rather than having the prop turn inside a closely fitted ring, why not fasten the ring to the prop blades and let it rotate with the prop? Amos| 8222|8217|2005-06-21 20:23:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: more electric propulsion|Jim, I have to chuckle, those are all the same parts as I have in my 1970 GE Elektrak garden tractor! I had to work on it when I got home today. The 35 year old tubeless tire on the front popped off the rim because the pressure was too low. That Curtis 1204 controller he mentioned is a very good, and inexpensive controller. Note he said it overheated. They are made in ratings to 600 amps @ 48 volts DC. Note that each controller has multiple ratings to reflect the way they are used. They have a peak rating, a 1 hour rating, and a continuous rating. For sailboat use you need to size for continuous rating or you WILL get in trouble. Curtis also sells Curtis Albright DC contactors, used to turn the power off and for motor reversing. I highly recommend these as well, they are far superior to golf cart contactors and can be repaired as well. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ragsdale" To: "OrigamiBoats" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] more electric propulsion > Came across this post while browsing some forums. It is by a fellow that > has > electric propulsion on his sailboat: > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8223|8196|2005-06-21 22:47:16|brentswain38|Re: Skeg depth|Yes the twin keeler's skeg is 51 inches down the trailing edge to match the draft of the keels so she will sit level. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Alex, > In the photos of your skeg it appears a bit shorter than some. Is > this so that it matches the draft of the twin keels? > Regards, > Ted | 8224|8182|2005-06-21 22:49:37|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing Box|Silas Crosby, one of my 36 footers trid the dripless packing. It didn't work. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > Hello Colin... > > The following is a link to a dripless packing product. Just > wondering if anyone out there is actually using this product or > similar. > http://www.oxlic.com/Products/Dripless_Stuffing_Box/dripless_stuffing > _box.html > > Regards... Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > Hi Gary - my 2 penny-worth: > > > > I agree that this is a vulnerable fitting, > > and posted an idea for a drip-free oil-filled > > stern-gland (with a stuffing-box for belt and > > braces) some time back. From memory, the > > consensus view was that such a fitting wasn't > > necessary, and that a simple stuffing box is > > adequate. > > > > > > By coincidence, I stumbed across the Vire site > > yesterday and have just finished downloading > > their manuals and parts lists. I've extracted > > a graphic of their stern tube, and have posted > > it in the OrigamiBoats Photos section under > > "Drive-Shaft info". > > > > It uses the same principle as my own idea - > > i.e. 2 aft-facing lip-seals either side of an > > inboard bearing - (proving that no idea is > > original !), except they have been using grease, > > not oil. > > > > I cannot find any reports of shaft seal failure, > > and as these little motors date back to the > > 1930's I think it's safe to say that the method > > works in practice. > > > > Personally, I'd still add a stuffing box > > (slackened right off) for emergency use - > > 'cause I recognise the consequences of seal > > failure, no matter how unlikely. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" > wrote: > > > Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly up > to > > > floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by engine > > > vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. (By > > the > > > way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until I > > took > > > it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I was > on > > > shore at the time. > > > > > > I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to > keep > > > water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you > only > > > have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I was > > > sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. > > > > > > Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I have > > also > > > learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. > > > > > > In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box > > > immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I am > > also > > > surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially lethal > > > item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a few > > screw > > > threads. > > > > > > Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. > > > > > > Regards... Gary | 8225|8225|2005-06-22 03:40:24|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Digest Number 1222|Hi all Have not worked back to the original post on this but if anyone is experimenting with,say,old forklift truck components then if you want to use a pump as a motor,which is possible,you need to modify it so as not to blow the seals.Not sure of the details but I know a man who is so if there is any interest will find out and post Cheers Andy Airey > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:14:21 -0400 > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > Subject: Re: Re: Another Idea > > seeratlas wrote: > > >Bruce, > >any idea what the efficiency of a hydraulic is? I > was under the > >impression that its not great. > >seer > > > > > > Not really... Seems like I had something around > here, but can't lay > hands on it. There were expressed concerns about: > > 1) Using bio-degradable fluid to help if there is a > spill > 2) Make sure that you have enough fluid for a > replacement if you blow a hose > 3) Some units are unacceptably noisy... high pitched > whine being the > common complaint. > > I have mostly dealt with this on tractors, where > there is so much other > noise it didn't matter. > > You did gain the same advantages of an engine > running in its "sweet > spot" at constant speed, and apparently good torque. > > I had these links saved: > > Fixing the Hydraulic Propulsion on our Prout Catam > > > [2] > http://www.vonwentzel.net/Prout/01.Propulsion/04.Hydraulics-Design/ > Hydraulic Tutorials > > > [0] > http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html > HYDRAULICS > > > [0] > http://home.planet.nl/~brink494/frm_e.htm > Hydraulic pumps save Hong Kong yachts from damage - > Parker Hannifin - > Hydraulics Group > > > [0] > http://www.engineeringtalk.com/news/pxv/pxv103.html > Hydraulic Propulsion - Boat Design Forums > > > [0] > http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4674 > Willkommen bei Diport, Yachthydraulik > > > [0] > http://www.diport.ch/products.html > Basic Hydraulics > > > [0] > http://www.sweethaven.com/academic/lessons/mechTech/hydraulics01/moduleMain.asp?whichMod=0101 > > I also have a *.pdf or a very good Army Hydraulic's > intro > publication/training manual if you have a private > (non-group) address I > could send it to. > > Bruce > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com| 8226|8188|2005-06-22 10:09:45|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Kort or Rice Nozzles|Quoting put_to_sea : "Rather than having the prop turn inside a > closely fitted ring, why not fasten the ring to the prop blades and > let it rotate with the prop? > > Amos One of the reasons that a kort nozzel works, besides for reducing tip losses on the propeller is that the friction between the water and the nozzle converts more of the energy of the propeller to thrust that otherwise would have been lost to rotation. If the ring rotated with the prop this significant portion of the increased efficiency would be lost while there would be greater shaft drag in rotating ring through the water. Jeff| 8227|8227|2005-06-22 11:10:22|sae140|a tilting rudder ?|The following was recently posted on another boating site: " .... last year an Australian boat with a number of interesting design features visited Trondheim. One of them was a rudder that could be tilted 30 degrees either side. This boat was most definitely a cruiser, at about 10 tons displacement on just 10 m length. The skipper and designer's philosophy was that having control over the boat was most important, and that he would accept complications for the sake of control." No further info at this time. Will keep the group posted if further info comes to light. Colin| 8228|8228|2005-06-22 11:19:06|seeratlas|Good Electric Options discussion article|http://www.mindspring.com/~jimkerr1/sebc&t.htm Still looking to me that the etek's on a shortened inboard shaft in a sealed compartment seems to be the most bang for buck installation, but still looking. seer| 8229|8229|2005-06-22 12:20:22|Jim Ragsdale|More on anchoring|There was a big discussion on anchoring on the list a while back. Many thoughts shared, but I didn't pick up on the mechanics of using steel cable. A few questions: 1. how do you secure it to the cleat or bollard? I guess you need a snubber, how do you attach that to the cable? 2. Is is all one length or do you shackle sections together with looped eyes and pressed sleeves? 3. How do you add kellet weights if needed? 4. Do you need a section of chain at the anchor? 5. What about corrosion of the cable? How often do you have to replace it? Can someone outline how they use steel cable for anchoring? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8230|8229|2005-06-22 13:27:23|seeratlas|Re: More on anchoring|Jim, Though I'll defer to Brent to deliver the 'gospel' on this, I did have a chance to talk by phone to some people who use cable and btw, to a man they will NEVER go back to straight chain. :) Ok, 1. On the securing to cleat or bollard, they 'sometimes' do that, but in "pre-defined lengths," see #2 2. They use Brent's technique of periodic 'eyes' in the cable. These are guys with a lot of experience and they have a good idea of the depths at which they are likely to anchor and have spliced eyes into their cable at appropriate depths. 3. As to 'kellet' weights (new term to me but assuming you mean weight hanging from the cable to reduce grounding angles and scope) there are two methods employed. some just snap the weights onto the eyes in the cable that go out before they reach anchoring depths. others use a second line and a 'hook' or 'sling' setup to let the weight ride down the cable till they get to a depth they think appropriate. 4. Almost all use a length of 'heavy' chain at the end of the cable to ensure the anchor is directed deep into the bottom. 5. When they first told me the length of time they were getting out of the cable i was extremely skeptical, but as more and more of them related much the same time periods, I began to convert :) Those using stainless cable report 5-7 years being the norm , and up to ten. Those using galvanized are reporting only slightly less, with the guy who claims to frequently oil and reverse his cable getting 8 to 9 years. As for the manner of anchoring, the guys i talked to have depth sounders, they know what scope they want and they have painted their eyes with different colors to account for depths.. they simply loose the anchor, freewheel the spool with a slight drag and let it out till them get what they want then either power back to 'snub up' or more often, on the pac west coast they are anchoring in a current and they merely snub up the windlass when they get to the desired scope as they are driven by the current. They then snub up with a heavy nylon line or commercial rubber snubber on the eye, to a bollard or heavy cleat they have installed for that purpose. Anyway, that's what they told me. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ragsdale" wrote: > There was a big discussion on anchoring on the list a while back. Many thoughts shared, but I didn't pick up on the mechanics of using steel cable. A few questions: > 1. how do you secure it to the cleat or bollard? I guess you need a snubber, how do you attach that to the cable? > 2. Is is all one length or do you shackle sections together with looped eyes and pressed sleeves? > 3. How do you add kellet weights if needed? > 4. Do you need a section of chain at the anchor? > 5. What about corrosion of the cable? How often do you have to replace it? > > Can someone outline how they use steel cable for anchoring? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8231|8231|2005-06-22 13:42:51|seeratlas|Is it possible to 'flare' the bow of an origami boat?|I guess this is directed primarily to Brent, Evan and any other pro builders. My question is, is it possible to get a bit of convex 'flare' at the upper part of the bow by extending the length of the origami pattern at the top most part of the bow, then during construction, welding up the centerline until say a foot or foot and a half from the top of the stem, then perhaps use a spreader to force a 'flare' just abaft the bow, then pulling the stem together to complete the welding? I'm wondering whether steel plate can take this kind of abuse and result in a smooth, fair, slight flaring at the bow? Since i'm going to have a stainless sprit set into the topmost portion of the stem, then I already have a designed in 'gap' which I'm thinking will let me force the uppermost parts 'out' and thereby create a small 'flare'. This would leave the steel under some tension, is that ok? or will it cause problems i don't presently foresee in the future?. thanks in advance. seer| 8232|8229|2005-06-22 13:56:20|Jim Ragsdale|Re: More on anchoring|I think the word I'm looking for on the "eye" is a thimble. Would you link the two pieces of cable w/ interlinked thimbles and swage the cables? Do you ever take sections on and off? something like this: ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: More on anchoring > Jim, > Though I'll defer to Brent to deliver the 'gospel' on this, > I did have a chance to talk by phone to some people who use cable and > btw, to a man they will NEVER go back to straight chain. :) > > Ok, > > 1. On the securing to cleat or bollard, they 'sometimes' do that, but > in "pre-defined lengths," see #2 > 2. They use Brent's technique of periodic 'eyes' in the cable. These > are guys with a lot of experience and they have a good idea of the > depths at which they are likely to anchor and have spliced eyes into > their cable at appropriate depths. > 3. As to 'kellet' weights (new term to me but assuming you mean weight > hanging from the cable to reduce grounding angles and scope) there are > two methods employed. some just snap the weights onto the eyes in the > cable that go out before they reach anchoring depths. others use a > second line and a 'hook' or 'sling' setup to let the weight ride down > the cable till they get to a depth they think appropriate. > > 4. Almost all use a length of 'heavy' chain at the end of the cable to > ensure the anchor is directed deep into the bottom. > > 5. When they first told me the length of time they were getting out of > the cable i was extremely skeptical, but as more and more of them > related much the same time periods, I began to convert :) Those using > stainless cable report 5-7 years being the norm , and up to ten. > Those using galvanized are reporting only slightly less, with the guy > who claims to frequently oil and reverse his cable getting 8 to 9 years. > > As for the manner of anchoring, the guys i talked to have depth > sounders, they know what scope they want and they have painted their > eyes with different colors to account for depths.. they simply loose > the anchor, freewheel the spool with a slight drag and let it out > till them get what they want then either power back to 'snub up' or > more often, on the pac west coast they are anchoring in a current and > they merely snub up the windlass when they get to the desired scope as > they are driven by the current. They then snub up with a heavy nylon > line or commercial rubber snubber on the eye, to a bollard or heavy > cleat they have installed for that purpose. > > Anyway, that's what they told me. > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ragsdale" wrote: > > There was a big discussion on anchoring on the list a while back. > Many thoughts shared, but I didn't pick up on the mechanics of using > steel cable. A few questions: > > 1. how do you secure it to the cleat or bollard? I guess you need a > snubber, how do you attach that to the cable? > > 2. Is is all one length or do you shackle sections together with > looped eyes and pressed sleeves? > > 3. How do you add kellet weights if needed? > > 4. Do you need a section of chain at the anchor? > > 5. What about corrosion of the cable? How often do you have to > replace it? > > > > Can someone outline how they use steel cable for anchoring? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8233|8231|2005-06-22 17:48:48|Gerd|Re: Is it possible to 'flare' the bow of an origami boat?|Seer, i think you might get problems. If you would have a true hard-chine hull, with a chine right up to the bow, you could force out the top to flare. But if you have a compond, concave curve further down, between the end of the dart and the stem, trying to invert this further up near the sheerline will not come naturally I am afraid. I guess you would get a sort of uncontrollable plonk with a hard fold or bend... don't know really, but you should be able to try that with cardboard, if there is any interrruption of the smooth curve and stress on the board, I think you are heading for trouble. Not sure though, and always willing to learn... ;-) Gerd The YAGO project a t http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I guess this is directed primarily to Brent, Evan and any other pro > builders. > My question is, is it possible to get a bit of convex 'flare' at the > upper part of the bow by extending the length of the origami pattern > at the top most part of the bow, then during construction, welding up > the centerline until say a foot or foot and a half from the top of the > stem, then perhaps use a spreader to force a 'flare' just abaft the > bow, then pulling the stem together to complete the welding? > > I'm wondering whether steel plate can take this kind of abuse and > result in a smooth, fair, slight flaring at the bow? Since i'm going > to have a stainless sprit set into the topmost portion of the stem, > then I already have a designed in 'gap' which I'm thinking will let me > force the uppermost parts 'out' and thereby create a small 'flare'. > This would leave the steel under some tension, is that ok? or will it > cause problems i don't presently foresee in the future?. > > thanks in advance. > > seer | 8234|8182|2005-06-22 19:34:53|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stuffing Box|From what I have seen of Dripless Packing at the boat shows they are just an extension of mechanical seals used in pumps. I have installed lots of packed seal pumps in my career and repacked quite a few too. However, I haven't actually seen a new packed pump in quite few years, because they have almost disappeared. For good reason, mechanical seals are far more reliable, and when they do need to be replaced you replace just the seal, not the whole worn down pump shaft. Pumps frequently run 24/7/365 at speeds of 1800 to 3600 rpm. Many run for several years that way. So if the mechanical seal can hold up like that then there is no reason why they can't be a far better way to seal a boat shaft, IF correctly designed and installed. The most popular style of mechanical seal in the world is a John Crane #21 style cartridge seal. I have installed quite a few rotary unions on hose reels that run in and out all day. I've been getting 15 years out of the seals. The company that makes them is the Deublin company. The ones I use have a silicon carbide face running against a ceramic face. The faces are so flat that it is nearly impossible to separate the two halves just from the suction! These seals are in a cartridge format. One side is mounted rigidly to the housing. The other side has the seal surface mounted on a rubber ring that insures it will follow the other seal surface even if it wobbles. I have often thought these seal cartridges would make an excellent boat shaft seal, for very little money. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stuffing Box > Silas Crosby, one of my 36 footers trid the dripless packing. It > didn't work. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: >> Hello Colin... >> >> The following is a link to a dripless packing product. Just >> wondering if anyone out there is actually using this product or >> similar. >> > http://www.oxlic.com/Products/Dripless_Stuffing_Box/dripless_stuffing >> _box.html >> >> Regards... Gary >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" >> wrote: >> > Hi Gary - my 2 penny-worth: >> > >> > I agree that this is a vulnerable fitting, >> > and posted an idea for a drip-free oil-filled >> > stern-gland (with a stuffing-box for belt and >> > braces) some time back. From memory, the >> > consensus view was that such a fitting wasn't >> > necessary, and that a simple stuffing box is >> > adequate. >> > >> > >> > By coincidence, I stumbed across the Vire site >> > yesterday and have just finished downloading >> > their manuals and parts lists. I've extracted >> > a graphic of their stern tube, and have posted >> > it in the OrigamiBoats Photos section under >> > "Drive-Shaft info". >> > >> > It uses the same principle as my own idea - >> > i.e. 2 aft-facing lip-seals either side of an >> > inboard bearing - (proving that no idea is >> > original !), except they have been using grease, >> > not oil. >> > >> > I cannot find any reports of shaft seal failure, >> > and as these little motors date back to the >> > 1930's I think it's safe to say that the method >> > works in practice. >> > >> > Personally, I'd still add a stuffing box >> > (slackened right off) for emergency use - >> > 'cause I recognise the consequences of seal >> > failure, no matter how unlikely. >> > >> > Colin >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" >> wrote: >> > > Just launched BS 36. On shakedown trip noticed water nearly > up >> to >> > > floor boards due to stuffing box locking nut, loosened by > engine >> > > vibrations with consequent in flow of seawater along shaft. > (By >> > the >> > > way, the "Rule" auto bilge pump was on but not pumping until > I >> > took >> > > it out of seat and shook it). The boat could have sunk as I > was >> on >> > > shore at the time. >> > > >> > > I also became aware later that in loosening the locking nut to >> keep >> > > water flow at a level that would maintain shaft cooling, you >> only >> > > have about 4 threads to back off. So for another 2 weeks I > was >> > > sailing within a breath of flooding the boat again. >> > > >> > > Brent advises drilling and tapping for a grease fitting. I > have >> > also >> > > learned that there is a stuffing box that has such a fitting. >> > > >> > > In any event, I will be looking into replacing my stuffing box >> > > immediately with something with at least a grease back up. I > am >> > also >> > > surprised to see so little discussion of this potentially > lethal >> > > item. I am sure boats have been lost as a result of just a > few >> > screw >> > > threads. >> > > >> > > Any comments, as usual...much appreciated. >> > > >> > > Regards... Gary > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8235|8229|2005-06-23 05:46:41|sae140|Re: More on anchoring|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Those using > stainless cable report 5-7 years being the norm , and up to ten. > Those using galvanized are reporting only slightly less, with the guy > who claims to frequently oil and reverse his cable getting 8 to 9 > > years. Any idea how this useful life is determined in practice ? With chain a simple visual check reveals enough info to make a judgement. But with cable ? It'd be a tad inconvenient to find out the hard way. Any reports of unexpected failure ? Colin| 8236|8227|2005-06-23 11:58:20|dreemer1962|Re: a tilting rudder ?|10 tons on the 10 m length sounds heavy (slow). Maybe not exactly type of the boat on which benefits of such advanced concepts are worthwhile, considering additional complications and costs involved. That's most efficient steering system possible, because it can be adjusted to sit vertically in the water with any hull - heel angle, all force created by the rudder is actually used to steer the boat and not partially to lift or bury the stern as is the case with a conventional, fixed rudder. Because of that efficiency, rudder area can be smaller, minimizing drag. Lars Bergstrom was a big advocate of the tilting rudders and used them on the many of his designs. These boats where all very light and very fast. http://www.algonet.se/~tb-yacht/ http://www.yachtroute66.com/ Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > The following was recently posted on another boating > site: > " .... last year an Australian boat with a number of > interesting design features visited Trondheim. One > of them was a rudder that could be tilted 30 degrees > either side. This boat was most definitely a cruiser, > at about 10 tons displacement on just 10 m length. > The skipper and designer's philosophy was that having > control over the boat was most important, and that he > would accept complications for the sake of control." > > No further info at this time. Will keep the group > posted if further info comes to light. > > Colin | 8237|8231|2005-06-23 14:26:40|evanmoonjunk|Re: Is it possible to 'flare' the bow of an origami boat?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I guess this is directed primarily to Brent, Evan and any other pro > builders. > My question is, is it possible to get a bit of convex 'flare' at the > upper part of the bow Hi Seer, I would suggest not attempting this, you will create distortion that would be hard to fix and quite frankly a flare would not be attractive. > to have a stainless sprit set into the topmost portion of the stem, > then I already have a designed in 'gap' > If you are thinking of a sprit, just cut out a slot similar to what would be done for the bow roller. On my 30' I had a sprit but different than the conventional one. I built the boat with the regular double bow roller, and then built an A frame sprit out of stainless pipe(either 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" don't remember off hand) that bolted to the bow roller as well as tabs that were welded to the bulwark pipes on either side about 3' back. There were also 2 struts that came down from the sprit to the bottom of the bow roller, this acted as a bob stay , also took the load for anchoring. The sprit extended forward of the bow 2' where there was another double roller as well as fittings for a fore stay. This arrangement worked very well for anchoring keeping the anchor well away from the bow, had the option of moving the forestay forward(which I never tried) and the whole thing was removable if damaged or no longer wanted. O f course this idea would not appeal to many people, but as far as I know it is still on the boat....Evan| 8238|8215|2005-06-23 17:15:14|jim_both|Dinghy|Thanks Old Ben I thought the dinghy, when made up in the aluminium nested format would make an ideal yacht tender. I can be rowed, sailed or use an outboard. It has a small footprint when nested and would be easy to stow on deck, and if it could be dis-assembled before hoisting on deck you wouldn't need any special equipment to lift it. Also pretty robust if made in aluminium. Jim| 8239|8215|2005-06-24 04:28:10|sae140|Re: Dinghy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Thanks Old Ben > I thought the dinghy, when made up in the aluminium nested format > would make an ideal yacht tender. I can be rowed, sailed or use an > outboard. It has a small footprint when nested and would be easy to > stow on deck, and if it could be dis-assembled before hoisting on > deck > you wouldn't need any special equipment to lift it. Also pretty > robust if made in aluminium. > Jim A couple of nice dinghies. That Gecko is superbly finished - although personally I'd be worried about using a boat with such a high quality appearance - it looks like a very 'stealable' item .... I came across a very interesting folding dinghy at a boot (bring and buy ?) sale a couple of years back, and foolishly didn't buy it - no need at that time. It was unlike anything else I've ever seen before or since. The principle was similar to a folding carton - pull out whatever holds it rigid and it collapsed into a flat pack - which is the state I saw it in. Imagine the cut-out plates of that D5 dinghy as show on page 5 of the .pdf file made in 3/8" marine ply, but initially held together by fresh air rather than by copper wire, then drape a sheet of truck side- curtain - that heavy pvc-fabric stuff - over the inverted hull. I remember the tarp had nice tight hospital-bed corners, and thin battens of wood tacked onto it's surface to hold the sheet to the ply, and to act as anti-scuff runners. Never saw it assembled, so can't elaborate on the mechanism, but I do like the idea of a one-piece tarp being used as an outer skin, and acting as it's own hinges. It folded down to a flat pack about 7 or 8ft long, about 18" wide and around 6" deep - ideal for strapping-down to a cabin roof I would have thought, or simply stored under an unused bunk. Apparently these were used locally by inland land drainage operators to make inspections etc. Does this ring any bells with anyone ? Colin| 8240|8227|2005-06-24 04:33:09|sae140|Re: a tilting rudder ?|A caution to anyone checking out the "Route 66" site : there's a 5Mb graphic on that site's front page - perhaps someone should have a word ? What particularly interested me about a tilting rudder was that this sounds like a vulnerable mechanism in a vitally important area, but was seen on a veteran cruising boat. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like. Updated info. The following is a recent post lifted from Microcruising: " Peter didn't give me a url, so I doubt there is one. The boat was built about 20 years ago, and I have a notion they (Peter and Ruth) have been cruising for most or even all of that time. He wrote some articles for an Australian yachting magazine when the boat was still new, but I don't have a reference. Peter said when he tells Australians that Mudskipper is a bushboat, they understand. The principle is that everything should be as close to indestructible as possible, should be easy to repair if it does break, should have low maintenance requirements, and should be easy to use. Here is a brief description: The boat has a 10 m long steel hull, a cat ketch rig with two wing-junk sails of Peter's design, three boards, one in the bow and two in the bilges, and that canting rudder. You can get an idea of Mudskipper's displacement from the fact that even without a keel, she still has a 1 m draft on 10 m length and about 3 m beam. She has basically a cellar under the floorboards. There is at least 50 cm space on any side of the engine, and you can reach it from the top as well by taking up the floorboards. The bed can be tilted to compensate for heeling. The masts are set in tabernacles, and still fit within the length of the boat when they're down. Everything on the boat looks like it is based on careful thought, long experience, and with the ability to control the boat at sea and keeping it simple being the highest priorities. I absolutely love it. I encouraged Peter to write an article for the JRA or the AYRS, and if he does, mine will be redundant. But if he is too busy cruising, I'll put in a little time to spread the gospel. Regards Robert Biegler" I wonder if he means a tilting engine bed (!) or a tilting bunk ? Colin| 8241|8215|2005-06-24 07:10:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: Dinghy|Colin, Did it look like one of the dinghies on this site www.seahopper.co.uk? I've got a similar one. Regards, Ted| 8242|8227|2005-06-24 07:22:17|edward_stoneuk|Re: a tilting rudder ?|Colin, I got mine from these people half price at the Birmingham Caravan, Camping and Boat Show www.seahopperfoldingboats.com. They look very similar. Regards, Ted| 8243|8215|2005-06-24 08:02:13|sae140|Re: Dinghy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Colin, > > Did it look like one of the dinghies on this site www.seahopper.co.uk? > > I've got a similar one. > > Regards, > Ted Hi Ted The principle is the same, but the construction was much cruder. It was more of a scow/punt shape - I assume - judging by the shape of the plywood. I made up a couple of models from card and sellotape, ages ago, to try and figure out the "locking into shape" mechanism. Didn't come to any firm conclusion, although the "origami" (i.e. paper-folding) bit was easy enough to re-create. The nearest thing to it that I've found so far is: http://www.microcruising.com/ding1.htm which uses fabric hinges and has a one piece bottom. The boat I saw had a 2 piece bottom, which I guess was "V"-ed a little, with around the same amount of rocker. Regards, Colin| 8247|8247|2005-06-25 16:24:13|seeratlas|Option for Alex & a couple other items|Alex, it occurred to me that you could get by with the etek inboard, a bank of batteries, and a shore charger for day trips. Add solar and wind and longer becomes possible. The problem remains adverse weather. As I pointed out before, if you need to goose up the etek, you're going to need either more batteries, or something to charge them so as to lessen the draw down. I suggested a small portable generator, but it also occurred to me that if you are going to have an outboard powered dinghy, that a suitable sliding bracket could be welded onto the stern which would allow you to also use it when situations required, as an additional source of forward thrust. What prompted this revelation was my inventorying of things I've acquired to go on or with my own boat. One of these is a Chrysler Marine outboard purchased many many years ago, but never used :) Bought it on sale thru a catalogue for a 26 foot trailerable I was going to buy, then bought a 20ft instead and the motor was too big for the boat :) LOL. Anyway, it was oiled down and stored away, and happily now, I'm glad I have it. Gawd knows what it would cost new today :( Anyway, the point being, almost every outboard i've seen on a cruising boat not large enough to carry the inflated dinghy with mounted outboard on the deck, has had the outboard locked to a bracket on or near the stern railing. No reason this bracket couldn't be fabbed to allow the gas line to be quickly plugged in, and the outboard slid right down into the water to provide some extra 'oomph' on those hopefully rare occasions you might need too. Mine, being a 'sailor' model, even has a substantial electrical output which could be used to help charge the batteries. I'm sure there were many more of them built that way. In any event, a possible back up for an etek or other electric drive if you choose to go that way. "other things' Is there anyway we can delete or block these bulk advertisers (and worse) from polluting the group? I take their presence as additional clear evidence that Adam Smith was WRONG!!! As I grow older, meaner, and less tolerant, it occurs to me that unregulated capitalism reduces all of of life to the lowest common denominator, as in a wholely unregulated business atmosphere, there is always someone who, in the name of 'profit' will sink to ever lower depths of conduct to eke out that last extra shekel, regardless of the consequences, and in so doing, force the remaining competitors to 'sink' with him or be run out of business. Surely there is some way of blocking or deleting such posts as soon as they appear, and for 'booting' said posters from the group. seer| 8249|8249|2005-06-27 00:43:38|seeratlas|More designer questions and thanks|Evan, thanks for the info on the bow. I tried folding some plastic sheet and tho I 'could' get a flare at the bow, the transition is so tortured that its not worth doing, just as you advised. thanks :) Now, next question, I'm reworking my design, *again* sigh LOL, to take into consideration the possible use of electric drive with diesel genset assist as I've described in several posts, as well as firming up some measurements for mockups. In checking measurements, (headroom below, clearance above etc.) it occurs to me that I don't have a definitive idea on the height the booms should be above the cockpit. Have any of the designer/builders on the board come to some learned conclusions or rules of thumb? My own thinking is that I want to get the booms up to the point that they won't hit my 6'4 noggin if I'm standing in the cockpit but I want to be able to tie in reefs while straddling the cockpit seats without having to reach over my head. Since I'm a believer in smallish cockpits on blue water boats, especially those with a decent pilothouse, any observations on boom height/cockpit depth theory or practice from those who 'know' would be deeply appreciated. I should note that my booms will be more like 'struts' as my schooner wing sails will be loosefooted, so they don't have to have the mass a tracked marconi sail boom would have. As always thanks in advance. seer| 8250|8250|2005-06-27 03:16:57|jim dorey|(no subject)|http://www.ventureyachts.com/ph40shoalkeel.html looks interesting. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8252|8252|2005-06-28 23:07:33|slotracer577|Any BS boats in socal or bay area?|I have been lurking on the list for a while now and will have the opportunity to be in LA, santa barbara and san fransico at the end of July and was wondering if anyone has a boat they are willing to show off. John| 8253|8252|2005-06-29 17:38:33|brentswain38|Re: Any BS boats in socal or bay area?|Several were built in SF bay area. Some have left, but Steve Sandaage had one at pier 39, Don branscomb who use to work for Scanmar had one and Steve Danaher of Pacific Marine Engineering had one that he sold. The new owner goes to Mexico from time to time, but he may be in the SF Bay area at the moment .There was a 31 footer called Chico in the area , but I don't know where. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "slotracer577" wrote: > I have been lurking on the list for a while now and will have the > opportunity to be in LA, santa barbara and san fransico at the end of > July and was wondering if anyone has a boat they are willing to show > off. > > John | 8254|8229|2005-06-29 17:42:53|brentswain38|Re: More on anchoring|I shackle 50 ft sections together, put the kellet at the shackles, and hook the snubber to the shackles and take that to the mooring bit.I use stainless cable but friends who use galvanized say they get about 2 1/2 years out of each end, then switch it end for end. Galvanized rope is real cheap. Stainless can be in secondhand marine places. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ragsdale" wrote: > There was a big discussion on anchoring on the list a while back. Many thoughts shared, but I didn't pick up on the mechanics of using steel cable. A few questions: > 1. how do you secure it to the cleat or bollard? I guess you need a snubber, how do you attach that to the cable? > 2. Is is all one length or do you shackle sections together with looped eyes and pressed sleeves? > 3. How do you add kellet weights if needed? > 4. Do you need a section of chain at the anchor? > 5. What about corrosion of the cable? How often do you have to replace it? > > Can someone outline how they use steel cable for anchoring? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8255|8231|2005-06-29 17:52:31|brentswain38|Re: Is it possible to 'flare' the bow of an origami boat?|Steel pulls into a convex shape easily. Concave shapes or flare is something that steel resists mightily, and is very hard to accomplish without distortion. What that requires is more metal along the edges of a plate than in the middle. You could peen the edges with the back of a ball peen hammer to expand it a bit, but it would take a lot of peening.Mechanical cutting with a nibbler will have the same expanding effect on the edges. The big disadvantage of flared clipper bows is that they tend to bury into a head sea, then , the buoyancy building up suddenly stops the boat dead with a lurch. My last boat had slightly hollow waterlines foreward. She had the tendency to lurch to a stop in steep headseas, and wallow. Adding just a slight amount of outside convex curve to the bow sections made a huge improvement , and my current boat goes smoothly thru headseas , hardly noticing them. If you watch yachts encountering BC ferry wakes , you'll see the ones with the hollow , clipper bows stop dead when the encouter the ferry wake , while the fuller bows hardly slow down at all, havig a more gradual bouyancy buildup. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > I guess this is directed primarily to Brent, Evan and any other pro > builders. > My question is, is it possible to get a bit of convex 'flare' at the > upper part of the bow by extending the length of the origami pattern > at the top most part of the bow, then during construction, welding up > the centerline until say a foot or foot and a half from the top of the > stem, then perhaps use a spreader to force a 'flare' just abaft the > bow, then pulling the stem together to complete the welding? > > I'm wondering whether steel plate can take this kind of abuse and > result in a smooth, fair, slight flaring at the bow? Since i'm going > to have a stainless sprit set into the topmost portion of the stem, > then I already have a designed in 'gap' which I'm thinking will let me > force the uppermost parts 'out' and thereby create a small 'flare'. > This would leave the steel under some tension, is that ok? or will it > cause problems i don't presently foresee in the future?. > > thanks in advance. > > seer | 8263|8263|2005-07-02 11:16:27|khooper_fboats|Lead FS|Looks like Uncle Sam is selling 17,000 lbs of lead. It's in pigs and is on pallets. Located Portsmouth, Virginia. Currently at auction and under 11c per lb: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=605511 Auction closes Wedndesday. --Hoop| 8265|8265|2005-07-02 13:12:55|Bill Jaine|Re: SPAM|I use Spambayes which dumps spam into a junk file. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kendall Sent: 2-Jul-05 11:38 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SPAM --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > The only technique I've seen that works reasonably ok, is for > a moderator (several can be appointed to share the work-load) > to check the first posting from each new member. Problem is, > that's still labour intensive .... > Colin True, but the moderator generally reads posts, and it's about as easy to dump a user as reply to them, which is the only 'fair' way of operating it. assume the best, but if the user is in fact a spammer, dump him/her. No matter what method is used to control spam it's labor intensive. I've seen a lot of otehrwise good groups get spammed into oblivion, and hate seeing it. Ken. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.2/29 - Release Date: 27/06/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.2/29 - Release Date: 27/06/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8266|8249|2005-07-02 19:13:25|brentswain38|Re: More designer questions and thanks|Lead your reeflines foreward to the base of the mast. It's easier to reef that way, and you can put a hook on the gooseneck to put the reef tack under.When reefed ,the reef pennant should be at a 45 degree angle to the boom. I reef in less than a minute. A piece of sch 40 stainless pipe accross your foreward lower shrouds makes a good seat to sit on while reefing. A canopy over the main hatch can extend aft to near the end of the boom to limit the oppportunities for the boom to hit you. Go too high and it gets harder to reef as well as raising your centre of effort of the sails , making reefing more frequent.Headroom from the cockpit floor is easier to attain, as long as the cockpit is not too shallow. 11 to 12 inches is deep enough.That lets you feel like your in the boat rather than perched on it in rough weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Evan, thanks for the info on the bow. I tried folding some plastic > sheet and tho I 'could' get a flare at the bow, the transition is so > tortured that its not worth doing, just as you advised. thanks :) > > Now, next question, I'm reworking my design, *again* sigh LOL, to take > into consideration the possible use of electric drive with diesel > genset assist as I've described in several posts, as well as firming > up some measurements for mockups. In checking measurements, > (headroom below, clearance above etc.) it occurs to me that I don't > have a definitive idea on the height the booms should be above the > cockpit. > > Have any of the designer/builders on the board come to some learned > conclusions or rules of thumb? > > My own thinking is that I want to get the booms up to the point that > they won't hit my 6'4 noggin if I'm standing in the cockpit but I want > to be able to tie in reefs while straddling the cockpit seats without > having to reach over my head. Since I'm a believer in smallish > cockpits on blue water boats, especially those with a decent > pilothouse, any observations on boom height/cockpit depth theory or > practice from those who 'know' would be deeply appreciated. I should > note that my booms will be more like 'struts' as my schooner wing > sails will be loosefooted, so they don't have to have the mass a > tracked marconi sail boom would have. As always thanks in advance. > > seer | 8267|8265|2005-07-02 22:00:29|Alex|Re: SPAM|Your moderator has been out of the province for two weeks, but I hope to be back on the island in another week. I've usually been destroying spam the moment it comes in to the group, though it is time intensive, as I also always ban the fake members who get in to drop their load of junk. This is why our group has been relatively clean til now -- I haven't had a holiday for years! For now, hit delete when you see what you don't like. I've already banned all the spammers I've found so far today. I'll be back soon to keep a weather eye on things, though our group suffers from far less spam than many, which is a relief. Count yourselves relatively lucky. Nice to know I'm good for somethin' though! Regards, Alex Too-far-from-the-ocean-in-Alberta| 8268|8265|2005-07-03 00:29:29|Henri Naths|Re: SPAM|> Alex Too-far-from-the-ocean-in-Alberta well, with all the rain we've been having you should feel right at home. LOL Henri (back from drying out in Penticton) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: 02 July, 2005 8:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: SPAM > Your moderator has been out of the province for two weeks, but I hope to > be back on the > island in another week. > > I've usually been destroying spam the moment it comes in to the group, > though it is time > intensive, as I also always ban the fake members who get in to drop their > load of junk. > This is why our group has been relatively clean til now -- I haven't had a > holiday for years! > > For now, hit delete when you see what you don't like. I've already banned > all the spammers > I've found so far today. I'll be back soon to keep a weather eye on > things, though our > group suffers from far less spam than many, which is a relief. Count > yourselves relatively > lucky. Nice to know I'm good for somethin' though! > > Regards, > > Alex Too-far-from-the-ocean-in-Alberta > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8269|8269|2005-07-03 01:53:54|sae140|Plywood origami|For an interesting example of how the Origami technique can be applied to plywood, check out: http://www.swallowboats.com/storm-petrel.htm This 14ft boat only weights 100lbs and comes with a sprit-boom rig and a couple of lug rig options. There's also a 17ft hull on the drawing board, which should compete well in the Drascombe Lugger end of the market. There's a CAD drawing at: http://www.swallowboats.com/stormcad.htm and a free paper model at: http://www.swallowboats.com/model1.htm Colin| 8270|8265|2005-07-03 02:06:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: SPAM|And we (I think I can speek for all) thank you greatly Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Your moderator has been out of the province for two weeks, but I hope to be back on the > island in another week. > > I've usually been destroying spam the moment it comes in to the group, though it is time > intensive, as I also always ban the fake members who get in to drop their load of junk. > This is why our group has been relatively clean til now -- I haven't had a holiday for years! > > For now, hit delete when you see what you don't like. I've already banned all the spammers > I've found so far today. I'll be back soon to keep a weather eye on things, though our > group suffers from far less spam than many, which is a relief. Count yourselves relatively > lucky. Nice to know I'm good for somethin' though! > > Regards, > > Alex Too-far-from-the-ocean-in-Alberta | 8271|8265|2005-07-03 10:14:02|jim dorey|Re: SPAM|On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:00:10 -0300, Alex wrote: > I've usually been destroying spam the moment it comes in to the group, > though it > is time > intensive, as I also always ban the fake members who get in to drop > their load > of junk. > This is why our group has been relatively clean til now -- I haven't had > a > holiday for years! yes, i can accept that, though the tiny little bit of spam such as i've seen does nothing to annoy me. rest, rest well, for you have a battle to come, a matter of swabbing, beating flies off of the spiced ham, and ushering some bilge rats off the plank(it's not international talk like a pirate day, but i'm in the mood). -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8272|8269|2005-07-03 12:35:59|Gerd|Re: Plywood origami|Lovely little boats, Colin, but it's not origami, is it? looks like standard stitch & glue hardchine construction for one and ply- lapstrake for the other, or did I miss out on something? Gerd the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8273|8269|2005-07-03 15:42:30|sae140|Re: Plywood origami|Yes, it's hard chine - but I understood "Origami" to be a method whereby the final hull form is determined by the shapes of pre-cut panels which are subsequently pulled together, rather than using frames to determine the shape. In this sense, I think this boat qualifies as "Origami", although I accept that it isn't in the same league as what we are used to seeing here. What I find interesting (and thought was worth passing on) is that an extremely light-weight hull results from this method - quite possibly a third or even a quarter of what an equivalent framed hull would weight. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Lovely little boats, Colin, but it's not origami, is it? looks like > standard stitch & glue hardchine construction for one and ply- > lapstrake for the other, or did I miss out on something? > > Gerd > > > the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 8274|8269|2005-07-03 16:14:49|Gerd|Re: Plywood origami|Well yes, but so does for example V.d.Stadt's basket mould... no frames required either for assembling the hull in a very loosly fitting female jig-frame where the hull also only determined by the shape of the panel patterns. Or look at this: http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/helgnlos.htm Also no jig, hullform determined by pre-cut steel panels and the wooden frames are of course temporary. But it's classic hard-chine really, even if at the transom he sort of blends it together. The way I understand origami is that we use these typical patterns for obtaining hulls that are part hardchine and part compound/conical shape. plywood origami would be this: http://www.zeglarstwo.3miasto.pl/projgrup/km1.html or http://seaputter.com/first_cut.htm or http://www.dr-segger-boote.de/uebersicht.htm And - at the risk of riding my one of my favorite subjects to death here ;-) - scantling (and thus weight) is not determined by the assembly method and origami does not automatically mean "frameless boat" but rather "frame- and jigless hull-folding method" which then may or may not have stringers and/or frames, bulkheads etc. If you would build one of the Swalloboat-designs over classic jig and some scrap-wood frames, taking the measures for tracing the panels from that rather than from CAD development, and rip the temporary frames out afterwards, shape and weight would be exactly the same. It's just that by now almost everybody designs for stich & glue because it is so much faster. But anyway, they are really very sweet boats, thanks a lot for the pointer ;-) Gerd The Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8275|8269|2005-07-03 16:23:51|John Foster|Re: Plywood origami|Hi Colin: There is of course, another, smaller, Yahoo group you might look at. This Group is intended to be a Repository for : Info as photos , files & links regarding the Topic . Origami Design in general , with special attention for plywood and composite building , where plywood , foam and or GRP is used as part of the composite. John > >Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 05:53:42 -0000 > From: "sae140" >Subject: Plywood origami > >For an interesting example of how the Origami >technique can be applied to plywood, check out: >http://www.swallowboats.com/storm-petrel.htm > >This 14ft boat only weights 100lbs and comes >with a sprit-boom rig and a couple of lug rig >options. There's also a 17ft hull on the >drawing board, which should compete well in >the Drascombe Lugger end of the market. >There's a CAD drawing at: >http://www.swallowboats.com/stormcad.htm >and a free paper model at: >http://www.swallowboats.com/model1.htm > >Colin > > >SNIP > > >Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:35:16 -0000 > From: "Gerd" >Subject: Re: Plywood origami > >Lovely little boats, Colin, but it's not origami, is it? looks like >standard stitch & glue hardchine construction for one and ply- >lapstrake for the other, or did I miss out on something? > >Gerd > >the YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ -- My life seems to have evolved to be much like the "Words to Live By" from "The Wind in the Willows" "Believe me, my young friend (said the water rat, solemnly), there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half as much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing about. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away or whether you don't, whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8276|8276|2005-07-03 16:57:34|Henri Naths|Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|Extended Cruise Hi all, I was wondering if anyone in the know would like to comment. Amanda Neal gives tips on extended cruising.... Planning and Preparing for an Extended Cruise Amanda Swan Neal is co-owner of Mahina Expeditions and leads sail-training expeditions worldwide, with a focus on teaching ocean passagemaking and navigations skills. She is a popular guest lecturer at Strictly Sail boat shows across the country and conducts offshore cruising seminars. In a recent posting from Discover Sailing I received, one point in particular stood out ..... Q: How do you budget accurately for an extended cruise? A: Start with the necessities, like food and boat maintenance. Boat and health insurance are optional, but nice to have. I did a survey of cruising boats in Tahiti a couple years ago and the average couple was spending $1200 per month for living expenses. The smallest budget was a Danish family of four cruising on $700 per month. They didn't eat out much, or have fancy side trips, but they were having a great time and their children loved the adventure. My question to the group ...would a 1200 dollar per mo. figure in maintainence? What are some of the experiences living and keeping things going for that amount? Thanks Henri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8277|8269|2005-07-04 06:19:12|sae140|Re: Plywood origami|Hi Gerd I have always interpreted 'Origami' as simply a means for constructing a monocoque hull from sheet material using (as you say) a "frame- and jigless hull-folding method". In my view Storm fits that criteria, as does: http://www.zeglarstwo.3miasto.pl/projgrup/km1.html (thanks for the links), but I feel a bad case of semantics and definitions coming on which is something perhaps best avoided ... ;-) Colin| 8278|8269|2005-07-04 07:01:47|gyles llewellyn|Re: Plywood origami|Hi everyone, I'm a long, long time lurker brit, living in the Gers,(south west of France). I check in to this group regularly and find it inspirational. I attended a one year boatbuilding course in the UK in 2000 and want to start an Origami steel project soon, since we live near to the canal du midi was thinking along the lines of a barge yacht. For origami ply, (they call it butterfly construction)take a look at: www.bandbyachtdesigns.com they have what looks like a fun sea kayak called diva as well as some nice nesting tenders and what looks like an attractive camping cruiser core sound 17, Gyles| 8279|8269|2005-07-04 09:35:42|Gerd|Re: Plywood origami|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > .... but I feel a bad case of > semantics and definitions coming on which is > something perhaps best avoided ... ;-) Yeah, let's not start bickering ;-) Who used that term first anyway? There is also the term of "folding steel" as opposed to "bending" of panels. Strictly speaking we are not "folding" although at the dart ends we do tend to get these knuckles that might be interpreted as a fold. I still think it would be nice to get a history together, and maybe theoretical & geometrical explanation of the process, from all preceding or related techniques to a collection of different types and shapes that can be archieved, sample designs, practical building processes and so on. I have started collecting links but that would really be a bigger undertaking I am afraid. Anybody wants to write The Book??? ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8280|8269|2005-07-04 09:57:34|sae140|Re: Plywood origami|Just for the hell of it I did a Google for: "Origami & Definition", but it seems like even the paper-folding fraternity can't agree on a definition for the term ..... More recently, software engineers have high-jacked the term - which they have 'defined' thus: ORIGAMI intends to define, develop, implement and integrate advanced tools and techniques for a synergetic, interactive, symmetric and seamless high quality mixing of reality and virtuality in linear and non-linear production. Yea - right .... Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > .... but I feel a bad case of > > semantics and definitions coming on which is > > something perhaps best avoided ... ;-) > > Yeah, let's not start bickering ;-) Who used that term first anyway? > > There is also the term of "folding steel" as opposed to "bending" of > panels. Strictly speaking we are not "folding" although at the dart > ends we do tend to get these knuckles that might be interpreted as a > fold. > > I still think it would be nice to get a history together, and maybe > theoretical & geometrical explanation of the process, from all > preceding or related techniques to a collection of different types and > shapes that can be archieved, sample designs, practical building > processes and so on. I have started collecting links but that would > really be a bigger undertaking I am afraid. > > Anybody wants to write The Book??? ;-) > > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 8281|8269|2005-07-04 10:24:31|Gerd|Re: Plywood origami|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gyles llewellyn" wrote:> For origami ply, (they call it butterfly construction)take a look at: > www.bandbyachtdesigns.com > they have what looks like a fun sea kayak called diva as well as some ... Nice link that, Gyles. When we were building our Murray Isles SWAN BAY (www.islesdesign.com) some years ago, I found later their Core Sound 17, lovely boat. If I had found that earlier I might have built that one instead. Gerd| 8282|8276|2005-07-04 18:01:47|brentswain38|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|700 a month is very expensive cruising. I usually spend less than $300 a month cruising the South Pacific. With a steel boat , things don't tend to break. A gallon of epoxy tar costs $36 CDN and does a lot of maintenance. 50 lbs of rice costs $25 CDN and beans and split peas not much more.Pasta is cheap and you get a lot of meals out of a dozen eggs. I can't imagine eating $300 worth in a month. Friends sailed from here to Australia on 35 gallons of diesel. When it was calm they simply waited and read a lot. Used sails sell for 1/10th the price of new ones and many are in almost new condition. Restaurants ,alcohol, nicotine, taxis and bars are easy to avoid, as are harbours which cost you money .What troubles would you be trying to drown while cruising on your yacht in the South Pacific? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Extended Cruise > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, I was wondering if anyone in the know would like to comment. > > Amanda Neal gives tips on extended cruising.... > > > > Planning and Preparing for an Extended Cruise > > > > Amanda Swan Neal is co-owner of Mahina Expeditions and leads sail-training expeditions worldwide, with a focus on teaching ocean passagemaking and navigations skills. She is a popular guest lecturer at Strictly Sail boat shows across the country and conducts offshore cruising seminars. > > > > > In a recent posting from Discover Sailing I received, one point in particular stood out ..... > > Q: How do you budget accurately for an extended cruise? > > A: Start with the necessities, like food and boat maintenance. Boat and health insurance are optional, but nice to have. I did a survey of cruising boats in Tahiti a couple years ago and the average couple was spending $1200 per month for living expenses. The smallest budget was a Danish family of four cruising on $700 per month. They didn't eat out much, or have fancy side trips, but they were having a great time and their children loved the adventure. > > My question to the group ...would a 1200 dollar per mo. figure in maintainence? What are some of the experiences living and keeping things going for that amount? > > Thanks > > Henri > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8283|8276|2005-07-04 18:18:39|Gerd|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|Brent, that 700 was for a family of four! Looks like you really live over the average there, get yourself under control man! ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > 700 a month is very expensive cruising. I usually spend less than > $300 a month cruising the South Pacific. With a steel boat , things > don't tend to break. A gallon of epoxy tar costs $36 CDN and does a > lot of maintenance. > 50 lbs of rice costs $25 CDN and beans and split peas not much > more.Pasta is cheap and you get a lot of meals out of a dozen eggs. I > can't imagine eating $300 worth in a month. > Friends sailed from here to Australia on 35 gallons of diesel. When > it was calm they simply waited and read a lot. > Used sails sell for 1/10th the price of new ones and many are in > almost new condition. > Restaurants ,alcohol, nicotine, taxis and bars are easy to avoid, as > are harbours which cost you money .What troubles would you be trying > to drown while cruising on your yacht in the South Pacific? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > wrote: > > Extended Cruise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, I was wondering if anyone in the know would like to > comment. > > > > Amanda Neal gives tips on extended cruising.... > > > > > > > > Planning and Preparing for an Extended Cruise > > > > > > > > Amanda Swan Neal is co-owner of Mahina Expeditions and leads > sail-training expeditions worldwide, with a focus on teaching ocean > passagemaking and navigations skills. She is a popular guest lecturer > at Strictly Sail boat shows across the country and conducts offshore > cruising seminars. > > > > > > > > > > In a recent posting from Discover Sailing I received, one point in > particular stood out ..... > > > > Q: How do you budget accurately for an extended cruise? > > > > A: Start with the necessities, like food and boat maintenance. Boat > and health insurance are optional, but nice to have. I did a survey > of cruising boats in Tahiti a couple years ago and the average couple > was spending $1200 per month for living expenses. The smallest budget > was a Danish family of four cruising on $700 per month. They didn't > eat out much, or have fancy side trips, but they were having a great > time and their children loved the adventure. > > > > My question to the group ...would a 1200 dollar per mo. figure in > maintainence? What are some of the experiences living and keeping > things going for that amount? > > > > Thanks > > > > Henri > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8284|8249|2005-07-04 20:00:05|seeratlas|Re: More designer questions and thanks|Got it, thanks brent. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Lead your reeflines foreward to the base of the mast. It's easier to > reef that way, and you can put a hook on the gooseneck to put the > reef tack under.When reefed ,the reef pennant should be at a 45 > degree angle to the boom. I reef in less than a minute. A piece of > sch 40 stainless pipe accross your foreward lower shrouds makes a > good seat to sit on while reefing. > A canopy over the main hatch can extend aft to near the end of the > boom to limit the oppportunities for the boom to hit you. > Go too high and it gets harder to reef as well as raising your > centre of effort of the sails , making reefing more frequent.Headroom > from the cockpit floor is easier to attain, as long as the cockpit is > not too shallow. 11 to 12 inches is deep enough.That lets you feel > like your in the boat rather than perched on it in rough weather. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Evan, thanks for the info on the bow. I tried folding some plastic > > sheet and tho I 'could' get a flare at the bow, the transition is so > > tortured that its not worth doing, just as you advised. thanks :) > > > > Now, next question, I'm reworking my design, *again* sigh LOL, to > take > > into consideration the possible use of electric drive with diesel > > genset assist as I've described in several posts, as well as firming > > up some measurements for mockups. In checking measurements, > > (headroom below, clearance above etc.) it occurs to me that I don't > > have a definitive idea on the height the booms should be above the > > cockpit. > > > > Have any of the designer/builders on the board come to some learned > > conclusions or rules of thumb? > > > > My own thinking is that I want to get the booms up to the point that > > they won't hit my 6'4 noggin if I'm standing in the cockpit but I > want > > to be able to tie in reefs while straddling the cockpit seats > without > > having to reach over my head. Since I'm a believer in smallish > > cockpits on blue water boats, especially those with a decent > > pilothouse, any observations on boom height/cockpit depth theory or > > practice from those who 'know' would be deeply appreciated. I > should > > note that my booms will be more like 'struts' as my schooner wing > > sails will be loosefooted, so they don't have to have the mass a > > tracked marconi sail boom would have. As always thanks in advance. > > > > seer | 8285|8276|2005-07-05 04:52:33|sae140|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A gallon of epoxy tar costs $36 CDN and does a > lot of maintenance. Strewth ! I've just done a check on the UK price for Coal Tar Epoxy (Sigma TCN 300), and have converted it to $CAN at today's exchange rate. The result is a cool $158.28 including tax. What time's the next flight ? Colin| 8286|8269|2005-07-05 05:13:10|Puck III|Re: Plywood origami & Free eBook|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, John Foster wrote: > Hi Colin: > > There is of course, another, smaller, Yahoo group you might look at. > > > > This Group is intended to be a Repository for : > Info as photos , files & links regarding the Topic . > Origami Design in general , with special > attention for plywood and composite building , > where plywood , foam and or GRP is used as part of the composite. > > John Hi John , thanks for mentioning the Origami Repository, we always welcome any Origami related Link(s) . In time , we hope to assemble a free eBook , a large pdf file in a way , with photos , drawings and Links. Who could be better to write about their designs & productions than the designers in person :-) It is a longterm project , so do not expect anything soon . We realy would welcome all constructive suggestions , links and directions , especialy from future interested reader-users I think the best way to proceed is simply to present what has been build , with plans , photos & links to eventual press reports about what's on offer. Impartiality and leaving the reader to make his own judgement is the main objective in any serious Repository, I hope it will grow into something that will be even more usefull than what it is today . Thanks for any feedback . Old Ben| 8287|8276|2005-07-05 14:57:27|brentswain38|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|it varies in Canada from $44 a litre to$ 36 a gallon. Shop around. brent--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > A gallon of epoxy tar costs $36 CDN and does a > > lot of maintenance. > > Strewth ! I've just done a check on the UK price for > Coal Tar Epoxy (Sigma TCN 300), and have converted it > to $CAN at today's exchange rate. > > The result is a cool $158.28 including tax. > > What time's the next flight ? > > Colin | 8288|8276|2005-07-05 15:06:54|brentswain38|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|I said under $300 per month. I didn't say how much under. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent, that 700 was for a family of four! Looks like you really live > over the average there, get yourself under control man! ;-) > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > 700 a month is very expensive cruising. I usually spend less than > > $300 a month cruising the South Pacific. With a steel boat , > things > > don't tend to break. A gallon of epoxy tar costs $36 CDN and does > a > > lot of maintenance. > > 50 lbs of rice costs $25 CDN and beans and split peas not much > > more.Pasta is cheap and you get a lot of meals out of a dozen > eggs. I > > can't imagine eating $300 worth in a month. > > Friends sailed from here to Australia on 35 gallons of diesel. > When > > it was calm they simply waited and read a lot. > > Used sails sell for 1/10th the price of new ones and many are in > > almost new condition. > > Restaurants ,alcohol, nicotine, taxis and bars are easy to avoid, > as > > are harbours which cost you money .What troubles would you be > trying > > to drown while cruising on your yacht in the South Pacific? > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" > > wrote: > > > Extended Cruise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, I was wondering if anyone in the know would like to > > comment. > > > > > > Amanda Neal gives tips on extended cruising.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Planning and Preparing for an Extended Cruise > > > > > > > > > > > > Amanda Swan Neal is co-owner of Mahina Expeditions and > leads > > sail-training expeditions worldwide, with a focus on teaching > ocean > > passagemaking and navigations skills. She is a popular guest > lecturer > > at Strictly Sail boat shows across the country and conducts > offshore > > cruising seminars. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a recent posting from Discover Sailing I received, one point > in > > particular stood out ..... > > > > > > Q: How do you budget accurately for an extended cruise? > > > > > > A: Start with the necessities, like food and boat maintenance. > Boat > > and health insurance are optional, but nice to have. I did a > survey > > of cruising boats in Tahiti a couple years ago and the average > couple > > was spending $1200 per month for living expenses. The smallest > budget > > was a Danish family of four cruising on $700 per month. They > didn't > > eat out much, or have fancy side trips, but they were having a > great > > time and their children loved the adventure. > > > > > > My question to the group ...would a 1200 dollar per mo. figure > in > > maintainence? What are some of the experiences living and keeping > > things going for that amount? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Henri > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8289|8276|2005-07-05 15:36:03|Gerd|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I said under $300 per month. I didn't say how much under. ;-) I am sure you could teach us a thing or two, Brent ;-) Sometimes, usually monday mornings on the way to the office, I calculate how much of the money I make is spent on creating the necessary conditions that I can go again next month to go and make again make enough money to create the conditions that ... and so on, ad infinitum. Car, dressing up, communcitations, living in a place where the work is, and so on... the part that actually increases our families well- being, our health or that simply enriches our family emotionally or even long term security wise is so small it's quite depressing really. Gerd The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 8290|8290|2005-07-05 17:22:22|prairiemaidca|coal tar epox|Hi All: Clova tar 22 coal tar epoxy from cloverdale paints in Edmonton Alberta is retail $64.96 +gst. (no sales tax in Alberta) for their one gallon kit. As for the cost of sailing, I would think that would be as varied as the types of boats and their crew. Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 8291|8276|2005-07-06 04:42:02|T & D CAIN|Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips|Good answer Brent! Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2005 04:33 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fw: Discover Sailing: Extended Cruising Tips I said under $300 per month. I didn't say how much under. Brent| 8292|8292|2005-07-07 08:33:05|Phil S.|Latts and Atts - Piracy story|Interesting story in the July Latts and Atts about two steel yachts set upon by pirates off the Yemeni coast. One of the yachts rammed and nearly cut one of the wooden pirate boats in half, the other pirate boat was shot full of holes by the accompanying yachty. The pirates had fired upon the yachts at the beginning of the attack and none of the bullets penetrated the steel hulls. Kind of cool... I hope all is well with my fellow board members. My appologies if someone posted this and I missed it. Phil| 8293|8292|2005-07-07 10:29:13|Wesley Cox|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|I've shot 3/8" steel targets at 100 yards with 30-06 rounds. The exit wounds were molten flared steel. Pirates with, perhaps, only pistols and inferior boats? Does anyone do anything right any more? Sarcasm, of course. I hate thieves. Phil S. wrote: > Interesting story in the July Latts and Atts about two steel yachts > set upon by pirates off > the Yemeni coast. One of the yachts rammed and nearly cut one of the > wooden pirate > boats in half, the other pirate boat was shot full of holes by the > accompanying yachty. The > pirates had fired upon the yachts at the beginning of the attack and > none of the bullets > penetrated the steel hulls. Kind of cool... > > I hope all is well with my fellow board members. My appologies if > someone posted this > and I missed it. > > Phil > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8294|8292|2005-07-07 12:28:36|khooper_fboats|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > I've shot 3/8" steel targets at 100 yards with 30-06 rounds. The exit > wounds were molten flared steel. Pirates with, perhaps, only pistols > and inferior boats? Does anyone do anything right any more? Sarcasm, > of course. I hate thieves. It's been a while since I read the account but I do remember thinking there is a lot to be learned from it: --The pirates came in firing toward the cockpits with automatic weapons and intending to kill/injure as many as possible. However they hit nobody and did no damage to the steel yachts. Apparently conventional rounds are not very effective in this situation. --The cruisers had between the two boats a single shotgun. With this they disabled one pirate boat and killed a pirate trying to board. Apparently buckshot works pretty well in this situation. --I don't remember anything about the pirate boats being wood, I thought they were probably glass. Anyway, ramming a non-steel pirate boat with a steel cruiser seems to work very well in this situation. --Staying the hell away from Yemen would have worked very well in this situation. --Threads about gun control on message boards not devoted to that topic are a pain in the ass (okay we all knew that already). --Hoop| 8295|8295|2005-07-07 13:38:08|evanmoonjunk|lots of lead wanted|Hi Gang, A friend is looking for up to 20,000 lbs of lead at a good price, on Vancouver Island or lower main land. Please send me a private email with any info, thanks....Evan| 8296|8295|2005-07-07 18:29:09|kendall|Re: lots of lead wanted|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "evanmoonjunk" wrote: > Hi Gang, A friend is looking for up to 20,000 lbs of lead at a good > price, on Vancouver Island or lower main land. Please send me a > private email with any info, thanks....Evan Holy smokin puppy poop! that's a lotta lead! I take it he's not just going fishin for the weekend? I think there was a post not too long ago about a government auction on ebay where they had a good sized supply of lead to get rid of. If it's not on this site, check the columbiasailingyachts group Ken.| 8297|8295|2005-07-07 21:25:55|khooper_fboats|Re: lots of lead wanted|> I think there was a post not too long ago about a government auction > on ebay where they had a good sized supply of lead to get rid of. That auction ended Wednesday at ~$.26/lb USD, which seems to be about twice the going rate for lead scrap and about half the going rate for new lead ingots in quantity.| 8298|8292|2005-07-07 21:30:34|brentswain38|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|The story is also published in 48 north. Perhaps they won;'t consider yachts easy targets anymore. The story mentions several pirates shot, and the only response they could get from their radio was a freighter, despite high military presence in the area from many nations.. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > > I've shot 3/8" steel targets at 100 yards with 30-06 rounds. The exit > > wounds were molten flared steel. Pirates with, perhaps, only pistols > > and inferior boats? Does anyone do anything right any more? Sarcasm, > > of course. I hate thieves. > > It's been a while since I read the account but I do remember thinking > there is a lot to be learned from it: > > --The pirates came in firing toward the cockpits with automatic > weapons and intending to kill/injure as many as possible. However they > hit nobody and did no damage to the steel yachts. Apparently > conventional rounds are not very effective in this situation. > > --The cruisers had between the two boats a single shotgun. With this > they disabled one pirate boat and killed a pirate trying to board. > Apparently buckshot works pretty well in this situation. > > --I don't remember anything about the pirate boats being wood, I > thought they were probably glass. Anyway, ramming a non-steel pirate > boat with a steel cruiser seems to work very well in this situation. > > --Staying the hell away from Yemen would have worked very well in this > situation. > > --Threads about gun control on message boards not devoted to that > topic are a pain in the ass (okay we all knew that already). > > --Hoop | 8299|8292|2005-07-08 07:56:20|Phil S.|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|> --Staying the hell away from Yemen would have worked very well in this > situation. Probably the best bet, but then how do you get from the Indian ocean to the Med? Without going completely around Africa. From my reading anywhere off the coast of Africa is unsafe. > --Threads about gun control on message boards not devoted to that > topic are a pain in the ass (okay we all knew that already). That was never my intention. Phil| 8300|8292|2005-07-08 10:59:34|khooper_fboats|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|> > --Threads about gun control on message boards not devoted to that > > topic are a pain in the ass (okay we all knew that already). > > That was never my intention. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply your motives were bad, just that I hope the thread doesn't turn nasty. > > --Staying the hell away from Yemen would have worked very well in this > > situation. > > Probably the best bet, but then how do you get from the Indian ocean to the Med? Without > going completely around Africa. From my reading anywhere off the coast of Africa is > unsafe. Certainly anywhere near Somalia which effectively means you're right about the Gulf of Aden. I wonder if the State Department will provide escorts if they have a vessel headed that way anyway. Perhaps if there were enough pleasure boats together to justify it. I have no idea. --Hoop| 8301|8292|2005-07-08 11:46:06|sae140|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|If you do a Google for "Piracy & Somalia", you'll see that there's been an upsurge in piracy recently. http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php is a good site. Colin| 8302|8292|2005-07-08 16:37:49|khooper_fboats|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a small motor vessel off Somalia very recently: http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations (MSO) in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward Tigris at best speed in order to render assistance... "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the maritime environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security efforts of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of the maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport personnel, weapons or other material.| 8303|8292|2005-07-08 20:18:35|brentswain38|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story|Africa is a real pain in the ass continent to get by, but given my druthers I'd rather deal with weather problems off the Cape of good Hope than pirate problems in the Red Sea. Weather responds to reason . People don't. The South Atlantic trade winds have a reputation for being the most Idylic sailing anywhere.Going to Europe from there would have a lot of great sailing. rent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a small > motor vessel off Somalia very recently: > > http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 > > "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations (MSO) > in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward Tigris at > best speed in order to render assistance... > > "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the maritime > environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security efforts > of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of the > maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport personnel, > weapons or other material. | 8304|8292|2005-07-09 05:32:40|Puck III|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story - Beautifull Africa|Africa is fantastic , great to sail to , visit or stay for longer periods and with a few exceptions a lot safer and sure friendlyer than many places on the beaten track. La Reunion , Mauritius , Madagascar in the Indian Ocean are Paradise :-) More websites than you care for to do a virtual visit :-) South Senegal and the Sine Saloum Delta is a sailors paradise , with a $ 300, budget you can even consider hiring a maid , even a licensed mariner to do your cooking , cleaning and maintenance :-) we just installed the first cybercafés over there ,see http://www.cyberlynda.com http://www.paletuviers.com/ http://www.keursaloum.com/ are Belgian owned and runed hotels , Gambia is 25 n miles , ideal start to the Cape Verdian Islands Only one thought , come and pay us a visit by plane and consider having your boat build instead of building your boat yourself :-) any plan , any size , even no down payment asked ; and all that under real professional supervision :-) Great fishing area too , so ideal for those dreaming to set up a boatbusiness as a new life-style . Canadians are realy popular in the area , due to many fine development projects they finance over there , so expect an exuberant welcome from real friendly people. Great respect is given to age , and the lonely old bachelor sudenly will feel surounded by more attention than he can handle :-) The Heineken is available , but much more important : fine cool Belgian beers & French wine sure too :-) Most of the sailors over there would love to keep it just the way it is :-) , so do not come in large numbers , we would love to keep it of the beaten tourist track :-) Worth considering ??? Just wondering Old Ben PS : Rgada in the Red Sea sure is a great place to go diving, Dont let people frighten you , its a lot safer than many of our Cities in the US and Europe :-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Africa is a real pain in the ass continent to get by, but given my > druthers I'd rather deal with weather problems off the Cape of good > Hope than pirate problems in the Red Sea. Weather responds to reason . > People don't. The South Atlantic trade winds have a reputation for > being the most Idylic sailing anywhere.Going to Europe from there would > have a lot of great sailing. > rent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a small > > motor vessel off Somalia very recently: > > > > http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 > > > > "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations (MSO) > > in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward Tigris at > > best speed in order to render assistance... > > > > "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the maritime > > environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security efforts > > of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of the > > maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport personnel, > > weapons or other material. | 8305|8292|2005-07-09 11:06:53|jericoera|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story(question)|How far offshore are most piracy problems occuring 10 miles -100 miles? I am wondering if people are in too close and could avoid trouble by skirting the whole area well offshore. Venezuala I hear is also bad. I think these days it would be safe to say anywhere that has a fair amount of abject poverty and very little in terms of any type of civilized laws would be a dangerous place or worthy of being careful. Mind you, I wouldn't be walking some places in Victoria BC by myself either. I had a friend robbed at gunpoint two blocks from the empress hotel a year and a half a go in the middle of the day amongst all the tourists. He was targeted because he was alone, is about 5' 4" and had his back to the trail as he sat at this lookout point overlooking Victoria harbour. We sometimes make ourselves easy prey...... Carl M --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Africa is a real pain in the ass continent to get by, but given my > druthers I'd rather deal with weather problems off the Cape of good > Hope than pirate problems in the Red Sea. Weather responds to reason . > People don't. The South Atlantic trade winds have a reputation for > being the most Idylic sailing anywhere.Going to Europe from there would > have a lot of great sailing. > rent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a small > > motor vessel off Somalia very recently: > > > > http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 > > > > "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations (MSO) > > in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward Tigris at > > best speed in order to render assistance... > > > > "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the maritime > > environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security efforts > > of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of the > > maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport personnel, > > weapons or other material. | 8306|8292|2005-07-09 12:44:59|seeratlas|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story(question)|To my recollection, most of the attacks are relatively near shore, with the exception of the island group out in the strait which is almost guaranteed to get you surrounded by the rather unsavory types. In speaking with some who have made the Redsea passage on more than one occasion, I would say that it is indeed a bit safer than the reports would suggest. The trick is to wait and raft up with a number of boats so that you transit together, following in the wake of, or vicinity of the numerous military vessels in the area wouldn't hurt also, and staying offshore beyond normal 'outboard' range probably helps a bunch too. In the end, tho, you either throw your hands up in the air, or take measures to protect your own behind, to each his own. I WILL tell you, that having spent some time in the area during the 'hot' period of the mid seventies, the 'normal' people were wonderful, the young hotheads the same the world over. I am advised that as evidenced by this latest report, tensions have escalated as have the tactics and equipment of the pirates. Used to be you were rounded up, held for ransom and your boat stripped of anything that could be sold. Now its apparently shoot first, strip later.. The coast of Somalia is particularly bad. It is important to keep things in context tho, as there was a time not so long ago that drug runners on mother ships with speed boats would waylay large cruisers off the west coast of North America, kill the occupants and dump em in the drink, then load the boats up with drugs and wander in closer to shore where they would off load. As for the assistance of US Naval Vessels, I can practically guarantee that the capn and crew will do all they reasonably can to answer a pirate mayday from a pleasure craft as long as they are not otherwise involved in some more critical mission. I once was pursued for some 30 miles across the ocean in a storm off the coast of Oregon by a vessel refusing to answer radio hails and running in total darkness. Had it on my radar approaching from behind, i changed course it changed course etc. and was coming up on my sailboat at an amazing rate of speed given the storm conditions. As it closed within 2 miles I sent out a broadcast requesting the assistance of any US Naval Vessel within range giving coordinates, speed and direction, and stating I was anticipating being boarded by a pursuing vessel refusing to answer hail on any frequency and approaching at an alarming speed. I then went below, roused the only other ambulatory person on board, (a non sailor on his first trip :) gave him a shotgun with alternating 00 Buckshot and slugs, and told him how to hold, aim and fire. I retrieved 'my' rifle with which I had a long history, and prepared to see what we would see.. About 2 minutes after my hail, I received a call from a US Naval vessel approximately 10 miles away which had the two vessels, mine and the unknown one, on its scopes and was advised that similarly the pursuing vessel had refused to id itself or answer any hail. They advised in rather direct terms that they had altered course, increased speed and were preparing to 'assist' with whatever was going to happen. Amazingly the pursuing vessel made no effort to break off, slow down or in anyway change their course or speed, they continued to come up on my six at substantial speed. At that point, I took the mic and broadcast the name of my vessel, that I was a former military officer and was prepared to repel any and all boarders with whatever force was required. Still no response or change in behavior of the pursuing vessel. At half a mile I still could not see the boat behind me as it was running without lights, I readied my weapon and placed my terrified passenger in the most secure position I could find for him. At about 100 meters this HUGE shape looomed out of the darkness behind us and a large spotlight hit the deck, As I turned to fire on the light, I hit the hailer advising I was going to kill the person manning that light if the vessel did not break off "RIGHT NOW".. At that instant, the vessel broke to starboard and roared past me at something less than 50 feet,,, as it went by? ... United States Coast Guard Cutter!!!!!!! I was as angry as I have ever been in my life and that's saying something. I advised the US Navy ship of what had occurred, but I could not make out the name or number of the Cutter as its flood went out then it disappeared into the darkness turning and running rapidly off my scope. It never did respond to any hail, and despite the Naval Captain advising me that he was filing a full report of the incident, the Coast Guard continued to maintain it had no such vessel in that vicinity at that time and place. Not to disparrage the men and women of the Coast Guard who routinely risk and sometimes lose their own lives trying to save others, I still recite this story to illustrate that in the open ocean you REALLY are the 'Captain' of your vessel and it will always come down to your decision on how to plan and prepare to deal with whatever comes your way, no matter how improbable such events may turn out to be. seer PS 3/8's mild steel plate will not stop a direct 90 degree hit from a 7.62 full metal jacket round at short to medium range, tho if curved it will deflect it. IT WILL, however, do a much better job than wood or fibreglass :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > How far offshore are most piracy problems occuring 10 miles -100 > miles? > > I am wondering if people are in too close and could avoid trouble by > skirting the whole area well offshore. Venezuala I hear is also bad. > > I think these days it would be safe to say anywhere that has a fair > amount of abject poverty and very little in terms of any type of > civilized laws would be a dangerous place or worthy of being careful. > > Mind you, I wouldn't be walking some places in Victoria BC by myself > either. I had a friend robbed at gunpoint two blocks from the > empress hotel a year and a half a go in the middle of the day > amongst all the tourists. > > He was targeted because he was alone, is about 5' 4" and had his > back to the trail as he sat at this lookout point overlooking > Victoria harbour. > > We sometimes make ourselves easy prey...... > > Carl M > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Africa is a real pain in the ass continent to get by, but given my > > druthers I'd rather deal with weather problems off the Cape of > good > > Hope than pirate problems in the Red Sea. Weather responds to > reason . > > People don't. The South Atlantic trade winds have a reputation for > > being the most Idylic sailing anywhere.Going to Europe from there > would > > have a lot of great sailing. > > rent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a > small > > > motor vessel off Somalia very recently: > > > > > > http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 > > > > > > "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations > (MSO) > > > in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward > Tigris at > > > best speed in order to render assistance... > > > > > > "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the > maritime > > > environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security > efforts > > > of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of > the > > > maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport > personnel, > > > weapons or other material. | 8307|8292|2005-07-09 13:57:53|brentswain38|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story(question)|Maybe we need few Mrs Doubtfires cruising the area. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > How far offshore are most piracy problems occuring 10 miles -100 > miles? > > I am wondering if people are in too close and could avoid trouble by > skirting the whole area well offshore. Venezuala I hear is also bad. > > I think these days it would be safe to say anywhere that has a fair > amount of abject poverty and very little in terms of any type of > civilized laws would be a dangerous place or worthy of being careful. > > Mind you, I wouldn't be walking some places in Victoria BC by myself > either. I had a friend robbed at gunpoint two blocks from the > empress hotel a year and a half a go in the middle of the day > amongst all the tourists. > > He was targeted because he was alone, is about 5' 4" and had his > back to the trail as he sat at this lookout point overlooking > Victoria harbour. > > We sometimes make ourselves easy prey...... > > Carl M > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Africa is a real pain in the ass continent to get by, but given my > > druthers I'd rather deal with weather problems off the Cape of > good > > Hope than pirate problems in the Red Sea. Weather responds to > reason . > > People don't. The South Atlantic trade winds have a reputation for > > being the most Idylic sailing anywhere.Going to Europe from there > would > > have a lot of great sailing. > > rent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a > small > > > motor vessel off Somalia very recently: > > > > > > http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 > > > > > > "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations > (MSO) > > > in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward > Tigris at > > > best speed in order to render assistance... > > > > > > "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the > maritime > > > environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security > efforts > > > of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of > the > > > maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport > personnel, > > > weapons or other material. | 8308|8292|2005-07-09 14:18:51|brentswain38|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story(question)|I've heard many such stories about experiences with the US coastguard. I even read about a boat being boarded by US coastguard in civilian clothes ( cowboy hats and buckskin jackets) from a common powerboat with nothing to identify them as coastguard. How do we tell them apart from dope smugglers. Do we treat them a spirates, then face the problems of the legal industry afterward, who have given them carte blanche to do whatever they want( in the intersts of making us make work projects and thus job security for them)?Or do we assume that everyone approcaching is coastguard , only to find out afeterward ,the hard way, that they are not. I've heard that towing a black five gallon plastic bucket full of amonium nitrate soaked with diesel fuel and containing 1/4 stick of powder wired to the 100 ft of black extension cord that you are towing it with ,can be a good deterrent to overtaking pirates. Just touch the ends of the cord onto a battery when the pirates are over it. An ex navy demolition team member told me that there is enough volume in the engine compartments of almost all large vessels to sink them . Just keep sailing directly away from the approaching pirates so that they will have to pass directly over the bucket. Staying well offshore was the best way to avoid pirates, but the article mentioned said that this was no longer the case at the entrance to the Red Sea. I have no doubt that Africa is a great place to see, people wise, but there is not much even the best of folks can do about Cape Aghullas weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > To my recollection, most of the attacks are relatively near shore, > with the exception of the island group out in the strait which is > almost guaranteed to get you surrounded by the rather unsavory types. > > In speaking with some who have made the Redsea passage on more than > one occasion, I would say that it is indeed a bit safer than the > reports would suggest. The trick is to wait and raft up with a number > of boats so that you transit together, following in the wake of, or > vicinity of the numerous military vessels in the area wouldn't hurt > also, and staying offshore beyond normal 'outboard' range probably > helps a bunch too. > > In the end, tho, you either throw your hands up in the air, or take > measures to protect your own behind, to each his own. I WILL tell you, > that having spent some time in the area during the 'hot' period of the > mid seventies, the 'normal' people were wonderful, the young hotheads > the same the world over. I am advised that as evidenced by this > latest report, tensions have escalated as have the tactics and > equipment of the pirates. Used to be you were rounded up, held for > ransom and your boat stripped of anything that could be sold. Now its > apparently shoot first, strip later.. The coast of Somalia is > particularly bad. > > It is important to keep things in context tho, as there was a time not > so long ago that drug runners on mother ships with speed boats would > waylay large cruisers off the west coast of North America, kill the > occupants and dump em in the drink, then load the boats up with drugs > and wander in closer to shore where they would off load. As for the > assistance of US Naval Vessels, I can practically guarantee that the > capn and crew will do all they reasonably can to answer a pirate > mayday from a pleasure craft as long as they are not otherwise > involved in some more critical mission. I once was pursued for some 30 > miles across the ocean in a storm off the coast of Oregon by a vessel > refusing to answer radio hails and running in total darkness. Had it > on my radar approaching from behind, i changed course it changed > course etc. and was coming up on my sailboat at an amazing rate of > speed given the storm conditions. As it closed within 2 miles I sent > out a broadcast requesting the assistance of any US Naval Vessel > within range giving coordinates, speed and direction, and stating I > was anticipating being boarded by a pursuing vessel refusing to answer > hail on any frequency and approaching at an alarming speed. I then > went below, roused the only other ambulatory person on board, (a non > sailor on his first trip :) gave him a shotgun with alternating 00 > Buckshot and slugs, and told him how to hold, aim and fire. I > retrieved 'my' rifle with which I had a long history, and prepared to > see what we would see.. > > About 2 minutes after my hail, I received a call from a US Naval > vessel approximately 10 miles away which had the two vessels, mine and > the unknown one, on its scopes and was advised that similarly the > pursuing vessel had refused to id itself or answer any hail. They > advised in rather direct terms that they had altered course, increased > speed and were preparing to 'assist' with whatever was going to > happen. Amazingly the pursuing vessel made no effort to break off, > slow down or in anyway change their course or speed, they continued to > come up on my six at substantial speed. At that point, I took the mic > and broadcast the name of my vessel, that I was a former military > officer and was prepared to repel any and all boarders with whatever > force was required. Still no response or change in behavior of the > pursuing vessel. > > At half a mile I still could not see the boat behind me as it was > running without lights, I readied my weapon and placed my terrified > passenger in the most secure position I could find for him. At about > 100 meters this HUGE shape looomed out of the darkness behind us and a > large spotlight hit the deck, As I turned to fire on the light, I hit > the hailer advising I was going to kill the person manning that light > if the vessel did not break off "RIGHT NOW".. At that instant, the > vessel broke to starboard and roared past me at something less than 50 > feet,,, as it went by? ... > > United States Coast Guard Cutter!!!!!!! > > I was as angry as I have ever been in my life and that's saying > something. I advised the US Navy ship of what had occurred, but I > could not make out the name or number of the Cutter as its flood went > out then it disappeared into the darkness turning and running rapidly > off my scope. It never did respond to any hail, and despite the Naval > Captain advising me that he was filing a full report of the incident, > the Coast Guard continued to maintain it had no such vessel in that > vicinity at that time and place. > > Not to disparrage the men and women of the Coast Guard who routinely > risk and sometimes lose their own lives trying to save others, I still > recite this story to illustrate that in the open ocean you REALLY are > the 'Captain' of your vessel and it will always come down to your > decision on how to plan and prepare to deal with whatever comes your > way, no matter how improbable such events may turn out to be. > > seer > > PS 3/8's mild steel plate will not stop a direct 90 degree hit from a > 7.62 full metal jacket round at short to medium range, tho if curved > it will deflect it. IT WILL, however, do a much better job than wood > or fibreglass :) > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > How far offshore are most piracy problems occuring 10 miles -100 > > miles? > > > > I am wondering if people are in too close and could avoid trouble by > > skirting the whole area well offshore. Venezuala I hear is also bad. > > > > I think these days it would be safe to say anywhere that has a fair > > amount of abject poverty and very little in terms of any type of > > civilized laws would be a dangerous place or worthy of being careful. > > > > Mind you, I wouldn't be walking some places in Victoria BC by myself > > either. I had a friend robbed at gunpoint two blocks from the > > empress hotel a year and a half a go in the middle of the day > > amongst all the tourists. > > > > He was targeted because he was alone, is about 5' 4" and had his > > back to the trail as he sat at this lookout point overlooking > > Victoria harbour. > > > > We sometimes make ourselves easy prey...... > > > > Carl M > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Africa is a real pain in the ass continent to get by, but given my > > > druthers I'd rather deal with weather problems off the Cape of > > good > > > Hope than pirate problems in the Red Sea. Weather responds to > > reason . > > > People don't. The South Atlantic trade winds have a reputation for > > > being the most Idylic sailing anywhere.Going to Europe from there > > would > > > have a lot of great sailing. > > > rent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Account of a US guided missile destroyer coming to the aid of a > > small > > > > motor vessel off Somalia very recently: > > > > > > > > http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-06-28-1 > > > > > > > > "USS Gonzalez, currently conducting maritime security operations > > (MSO) > > > > in the area, responded immediately and began moving toward > > Tigris at > > > > best speed in order to render assistance... > > > > > > > > "MSO sets the conditions for security and stability in the > > maritime > > > > environment and complements the counter-terrorism and security > > efforts > > > > of regional nations. MSO denies international terrorists use of > > the > > > > maritime environment as a venue for attack or to transport > > personnel, > > > > weapons or other material. | 8309|8292|2005-07-09 19:55:28|Jim Phillips|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story(question)|Hey, fellas, what's happening? The worst areas in the world for robbery (called piracy on the ocean) and personal violence are the large cities of N America and the developed world. We did a circumnavigation from Brisbane, Australia through Indonesia, Red Sea, the Med, Caribbean, the Canal and back home. Before we left our hometown of Brisbane, 2 separate incidents occurred - our dinghy was stolen and we were forced to fire one shot into the water when a bunch of drunken teenagers bombarded our anchored boat with rocks. During the three-year circumnavigation, a pair of sandals was stolen in Indonesia. Nothing else. The rifle was never used for anything more than killing a shark before bringing it aboard. But the gun was always a nuisance when entering and departing each country in terms of the additional paperwork. But on our return to Brisbane, some bastard stole the dinghy again. What is the lesson in this? Crime is not neccesarily more prevalent in the poor areas of the world. In fact, I would have to say that the general happiness of a society is inversely proportional to its wealth. Happy. contented people don't rob. I am more concerned for my general safety in Florida than I am in Jakarta. A visit to many first and third world countries will confirm this. During a recent one-year trip around the Caribbean, we were robbed twice. A winch handle was stolen from the cockpit while we were tied to the dock in Kingston, Jamaica. But the far worse case was when we were ripped off (robbed) by a land-based piratical marina owner in Florida. He held us to ransom with our boat on the hard and refused to return it to the water until we paid him the ransom in total. What sickened me about it was the semi-legal air he placed on his actions rather than just being an "honest" pirate and admitting it was a robbery. Cheers, Jim. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: Now with unlimited storage [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8310|8310|2005-07-10 15:38:57|edward_stoneuk|Water filter|I am setting up my water tanks so that I can divert rain water from running off the deck down into the tanks. Does anyone have thoughts or experience in filtering the runnoff before it reaches the tanks? Regards, Ted| 8311|8310|2005-07-10 19:32:05|kendall|Re: Water filter|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > I am setting up my water tanks so that I can divert rain water from > running off the deck down into the tanks. Does anyone have thoughts > or experience in filtering the runnoff before it reaches the tanks? > Regards, > Ted Most people I've known who were set up to catch rainwater keep everything closed up for a short time after the rain starts to clean most of then crud off the deck, then open and catch. Those that did use a filter merely placed a bit of screen over the fillers. something that will keep most crud out of the tanks is if you just use a coffee filter with a small expanding ring and slip it inside the filler. Alternatively, cut the bottom out of a cap (shampoo bottle etc) that fits fairly snug in the filler and use that to hold the filter in place. You could possibly find more effective filter membranes by a google search, but if you let the rain clean the deck before filling up, you should be running pretty clean water. on a side note, some of the best tasting water I've ever had came right out of a ditch in the mojave. ken.| 8312|8310|2005-07-10 21:57:57|gschnell|Re: Water filter|Brents' philosophy is; Let the water run overboard until the sails and decks have been washed free of salt and dirt. Taste it. If it's good, block the scuppers and collect it in a tank. I have set up to collect in one of two smaller tanks. If I'm happy with it as drinking water, I'll dump it into one of my larger tanks. If not, I'll use it for showers, dishes and cooking. I have a carbon bed and filtration system on tank water that will be used for drinking. Hope that helps. Gord edward_stoneuk wrote: > I am setting up my water tanks so that I can divert rain water from > running off the deck down into the tanks. Does anyone have thoughts > or experience in filtering the runnoff before it reaches the tanks? > Regards, > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8313|8292|2005-07-11 17:21:56|brentswain38|Re: Latts and Atts - Piracy story(question)|While cruising Baja years ago someone pointed out that there is more serious crime in one day in LA than in an entire year in Baja. I now avoid the US altogether. I've met many people who didn't and wish they had. People can simply be poor and still be happier than much richer people. Being desparately hungry and seeing your children starving to death is a different story. What wouldn't you do for them? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > Hey, fellas, what's happening? > > The worst areas in the world for robbery (called piracy on the ocean) and personal violence are the large cities of N America and the developed world. We did a circumnavigation from Brisbane, Australia through Indonesia, Red Sea, the Med, Caribbean, the Canal and back home. Before we left our hometown of Brisbane, 2 separate incidents occurred - our dinghy was stolen and we were forced to fire one shot into the water when a bunch of drunken teenagers bombarded our anchored boat with rocks. > > During the three-year circumnavigation, a pair of sandals was stolen in Indonesia. Nothing else. The rifle was never used for anything more than killing a shark before bringing it aboard. But the gun was always a nuisance when entering and departing each country in terms of the additional paperwork. > > But on our return to Brisbane, some bastard stole the dinghy again. > > What is the lesson in this? Crime is not neccesarily more prevalent in the poor areas of the world. In fact, I would have to say that the general happiness of a society is inversely proportional to its wealth. Happy. contented people don't rob. I am more concerned for my general safety in Florida than I am in Jakarta. A visit to many first and third world countries will confirm this. > > During a recent one-year trip around the Caribbean, we were robbed twice. A winch handle was stolen from the cockpit while we were tied to the dock in Kingston, Jamaica. But the far worse case was when we were ripped off (robbed) by a land-based piratical marina owner in Florida. He held us to ransom with our boat on the hard and refused to return it to the water until we paid him the ransom in total. What sickened me about it was the semi-legal air he placed on his actions rather than just being an "honest" pirate and admitting it was a robbery. > > Cheers, > Jim. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: Now with unlimited storage > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8314|8310|2005-07-11 17:29:56|brentswain38|Re: Water filter|I've never worried about filtreing it. What does catchement deck water run thru compared to catchement shore water. That stuff that comes out of your tap has been strained thru a lot of birdshit, deershit, wolf shit, coyote shit,bear shit, etc etc, as well as having one of the most powerful carcinogens( Chlorine) added to it, which contrary to popular belief, doesn't evaporate out while it is confined in a pipe. I prefer deck water , knowing exactly where it has been since falling as rain. If your worried, a simple sand filtre would be easy to make and maintain( don't get your sand from the kitty litter box , or you'll have the equivalent of city tap water. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Brents' philosophy is; Let the water run overboard until the sails and > decks have been washed free of salt and dirt. Taste it. If it's good, > block the scuppers and collect it in a tank. > I have set up to collect in one of two smaller tanks. If I'm happy with > it as drinking water, I'll dump it into one of my larger tanks. If not, > I'll use it for showers, dishes and cooking. > I have a carbon bed and filtration system on tank water that will be > used for drinking. > > Hope that helps. > Gord > > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > I am setting up my water tanks so that I can divert rain water from > > running off the deck down into the tanks. Does anyone have thoughts > > or experience in filtering the runnoff before it reaches the tanks? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8315|8315|2005-07-11 17:30:17|brentswain38|Shower|Carl juast sent me some info on a portable hot shower that looks interesting. It's at www.zodi.com Brent| 8316|8310|2005-07-12 04:02:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Water filter|Thanks for the comments, Brent's reminds me when I was a lad living on the farm. Our water was pumped from on old brick lined well. Visitors remarked to my Mum how nice the tea she made for them was. "Its the water," my Mum used to say. When my brother left school, he wanted to go into dairying so Dad had to have the water from the well tested to see if it was fit to wash the milking machines etc. It failed the test because of a high bacteria count and my brother never went into milking cows. Regards, Ted| 8317|8310|2005-07-12 10:29:19|sae140|Re: Water filter|There is growing concern in London that falling sperm count levels may be due to the high levels of oestrogen from HRT and contraceptive pills which are now being detected in the re-cycled water supplies of the River Lee in North London, where male fish are beginning to show female organ development. Rain water straight off the deck sounds pretty pure by comparison. Colin| 8318|8318|2005-07-12 11:05:39|khooper_fboats|Testing Batteries|I'm going to an auction in a couple weeks which is advertised as having a lot of forklift batteries for sale among other things. This is what I want to use on the boat and I plan on a heavy electrical regimen so I'm really interested in these if I can get a good price on them. Want to be able to test the batteries if possible before auction. I understand there is no meaningful test if the batteries are not fully charged--if they aren't charged up I guess I just take my chances. If they are charged I'd like to be able to do a load test but have never done it and don't want to pay a lot for an instrument--is these any way to make a homemade load tester? Doesn't have to be pretty, just has to work for one day. --Hoop| 8319|8310|2005-07-12 14:41:54|brentswain38|Re: Water filter|Given the disasterous effects of overpopulation, lower sperm counts may be a good thing. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > There is growing concern in London that falling sperm > count levels may be due to the high levels of oestrogen > from HRT and contraceptive pills which are now being > detected in the re-cycled water supplies of the River > Lee in North London, where male fish are beginning > to show female organ development. > > Rain water straight off the deck sounds pretty pure > by comparison. > > Colin | 8320|8310|2005-07-12 14:48:29|brentswain38|Re: Water filter|Those charter boat sail covers, open on top, held up by lazy jacks make great watercatchers at sea. In a squall the rain pors out the ends and you have the total area of the mainsail as a catchement area. I used it lots in my last four trips accross the Pacific. I thought about hanging a bucket Under the gooseneck with a thru hull in the bottom ,so I could lead the water belowdecks into a tank. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Thanks for the comments, Brent's reminds me when I was a lad living on > the farm. Our water was pumped from on old brick lined well. > Visitors remarked to my Mum how nice the tea she made for them > was. "Its the water," my Mum used to say. When my brother left school, > he wanted to go into dairying so Dad had to have the water from the > well tested to see if it was fit to wash the milking machines etc. It > failed the test because of a high bacteria count and my brother never > went into milking cows. > > Regards, > Ted | 8321|8318|2005-07-12 14:58:49|Roger Allman|Re: Testing Batteries|I use to work in a nfg plant that had 100+/- forktrucks running 3 shifts/day. We installed an automated charging system that was 5 racks high by 50' squared. The truck would enter and the driver disconnected the power. A robotic arm would lift the battery into a charging bay, discharge it completely, top of the fluids, wash it and then apply a preset charging program. The batteries were always rotated such that no battery sat on the shelf for more than x# of days or was in service for more than x# of days/week or year. Every battery had a serial number that tracked its history from birth. The warehouse manager could tell everything about the battery and the fore truck driver from this serial #. The point of this long wiinded example is: 1) If these batteries are coming from a mfg plant it may have similar documentation which outlines its current power capacity and maintenance history 2) The plant I worked in never sold batteries except to recyclers. By the time they were disposed they had a problem which could not be repaired. --- khooper_fboats wrote: > > I'm going to an auction in a couple weeks which is > advertised as > having a lot of forklift batteries for sale among > other things. This > is what I want to use on the boat and I plan on a > heavy electrical > regimen so I'm really interested in these if I can > get a good price on > them. > > Want to be able to test the batteries if possible > before auction. I > understand there is no meaningful test if the > batteries are not fully > charged--if they aren't charged up I guess I just > take my chances. > > If they are charged I'd like to be able to do a load > test but have > never done it and don't want to pay a lot for an > instrument--is these > any way to make a homemade load tester? Doesn't have > to be pretty, > just has to work for one day. > > --Hoop > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8322|8318|2005-07-12 15:26:32|Russell|Re: Testing Batteries|Can you redo batteries by removing their fluids and adding new fluids and then recharge them again?? Thanks, Russell Roger Allman wrote: I use to work in a nfg plant that had 100+/- forktrucks running 3 shifts/day. We installed an automated charging system that was 5 racks high by 50' squared. The truck would enter and the driver disconnected the power. A robotic arm would lift the battery into a charging bay, discharge it completely, top of the fluids, wash it and then apply a preset charging program. The batteries were always rotated such that no battery sat on the shelf for more than x# of days or was in service for more than x# of days/week or year. Every battery had a serial number that tracked its history from birth. The warehouse manager could tell everything about the battery and the fore truck driver from this serial #. The point of this long wiinded example is: 1) If these batteries are coming from a mfg plant it may have similar documentation which outlines its current power capacity and maintenance history 2) The plant I worked in never sold batteries except to recyclers. By the time they were disposed they had a problem which could not be repaired. --- khooper_fboats wrote: > > I'm going to an auction in a couple weeks which is > advertised as > having a lot of forklift batteries for sale among > other things. This > is what I want to use on the boat and I plan on a > heavy electrical > regimen so I'm really interested in these if I can > get a good price on > them. > > Want to be able to test the batteries if possible > before auction. I > understand there is no meaningful test if the > batteries are not fully > charged--if they aren't charged up I guess I just > take my chances. > > If they are charged I'd like to be able to do a load > test but have > never done it and don't want to pay a lot for an > instrument--is these > any way to make a homemade load tester? Doesn't have > to be pretty, > just has to work for one day. > > --Hoop > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8323|8318|2005-07-12 15:51:16|Wesley Cox|Re: Testing Batteries|Based on my limited battery knowledge, one kiss of death for lead acid batteries is degradation of the lead plates. One reason automotive batteries are not suitable for deep cycle use is the lead plates are much thinner and won't last through as many charge cycles. I'm *not* a battery expert. Take this fwiw. Russell wrote: > Can you redo batteries by removing their fluids and adding new fluids > and then recharge them again?? > > Thanks, > > Russell > > Roger Allman wrote: > I use to work in a nfg plant that had 100+/- > forktrucks running 3 shifts/day. We installed an > automated charging system that was 5 racks high by 50' > squared. The truck would enter and the driver > disconnected the power. A robotic arm would lift the > battery into a charging bay, discharge it completely, > top of the fluids, wash it and then apply a preset > charging program. > > The batteries were always rotated such that no battery > sat on the shelf for more than x# of days or was in > service for more than x# of days/week or year. Every > battery had a serial number that tracked its history > from birth. The warehouse manager could tell > everything about the battery and the fore truck driver > from this serial #. > > The point of this long wiinded example is: > 1) If these batteries are coming from a mfg plant it > may have similar documentation which outlines its > current power capacity and maintenance history > 2) The plant I worked in never sold batteries except > to recyclers. By the time they were disposed they had > a problem which could not be repaired. > > --- khooper_fboats wrote: > > > > > I'm going to an auction in a couple weeks which is > > advertised as > > having a lot of forklift batteries for sale among > > other things. This > > is what I want to use on the boat and I plan on a > > heavy electrical > > regimen so I'm really interested in these if I can > > get a good price on > > them. > > > > Want to be able to test the batteries if possible > > before auction. I > > understand there is no meaningful test if the > > batteries are not fully > > charged--if they aren't charged up I guess I just > > take my chances. > > > > If they are charged I'd like to be able to do a load > > test but have > > never done it and don't want to pay a lot for an > > instrument--is these > > any way to make a homemade load tester? Doesn't have > > to be pretty, > > just has to work for one day. > > > > --Hoop > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8324|8318|2005-07-12 21:05:01|Roger Allman|Re: Testing Batteries|One of the keys to maintaining the batteries is to constantly refresh the fluid. Make sure the plates are properly coated and the fluid is the right ph/metallic content. To answer your question, I have never seen a battery drained and refilled. Maybe its part of the process of refurbishing. A battery operating at the proper PH with proper fluid level and composition will always store and deliver more power. A battery low on fluids is a warning sign that the battery has been abused. In a fork truck battery, this would indicate that the battery was put under high load for long periods of time most likely beyond its rated capacity. High temperature that results from overloading will change the ph and degrade the plates. perhaps even create pin holes in the plates that will accelerate plate degradation. This is a vicious cycle as the less fluid the less % of the plates participate in the chemical reaction. As a result the battery becomes even more overloaded and the cycle spirals until eventual failure. Every battery mfg has a spec on the fluid. If you know what type of batteries you will be looking at check with the manufacturer. They sell special test strips for evaluating battery fluid. Or at the least you use a ph strip. --- Russell wrote: > Can you redo batteries by removing their fluids and > adding new fluids and then recharge them again?? > > Thanks, > > Russell > > Roger Allman wrote: > I use to work in a nfg plant that had 100+/- > forktrucks running 3 shifts/day. We installed an > automated charging system that was 5 racks high by > 50' > squared. The truck would enter and the driver > disconnected the power. A robotic arm would lift > the > battery into a charging bay, discharge it > completely, > top of the fluids, wash it and then apply a preset > charging program. > > The batteries were always rotated such that no > battery > sat on the shelf for more than x# of days or was in > service for more than x# of days/week or year. Every > battery had a serial number that tracked its history > from birth. The warehouse manager could tell > everything about the battery and the fore truck > driver > from this serial #. > > The point of this long wiinded example is: > 1) If these batteries are coming from a mfg plant it > may have similar documentation which outlines its > current power capacity and maintenance history > 2) The plant I worked in never sold batteries except > to recyclers. By the time they were disposed they > had > a problem which could not be repaired. > > --- khooper_fboats wrote: > > > > > I'm going to an auction in a couple weeks which is > > advertised as > > having a lot of forklift batteries for sale among > > other things. This > > is what I want to use on the boat and I plan on a > > heavy electrical > > regimen so I'm really interested in these if I can > > get a good price on > > them. > > > > Want to be able to test the batteries if possible > > before auction. I > > understand there is no meaningful test if the > > batteries are not fully > > charged--if they aren't charged up I guess I just > > take my chances. > > > > If they are charged I'd like to be able to do a > load > > test but have > > never done it and don't want to pay a lot for an > > instrument--is these > > any way to make a homemade load tester? Doesn't > have > > to be pretty, > > just has to work for one day. > > > > --Hoop > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/| 8325|8325|2005-07-12 22:58:59|mickeyolaf|Water filters|Last year I drank a coffee in Mexico at 930am. At noon I was running for my hotel room. I spent 4 days either on the head or in the shower. I lost 15lbs and was so dehydrated my w/ring fell off. Only antibiotics and a smart Doctor from Carolina saved my guts from emploding. I thought I was going to meet my maker. Thus I have installed a four stage water filter plus ultra violet on my boat. This Aqua Smart Technologies system removes metals, chlorine, zaps bugs and everthing else. Filters are $100 a year. I can't remember the hours life on the uv. The system is sold at their own store @ 3122 Beta Street @ 294-4041. Water should be treated with care. It can't be too clean. Whatever bug visited my bowels almost killed me. I have 300 gallons of water on board in four tanks and now I won't worry if the source is a garden hose on a Gulf Island dock. You have to be on the head for 4 days to appreciate it as an economical investment that brings great piece of mind.| 8326|8326|2005-07-13 00:19:01|seeratlas|Piracy|http://www.48north.com/sep2001/pirates.htm seer| 8327|8318|2005-07-13 06:41:49|T & D CAIN|Re: Testing Batteries|Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or the day before that either. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of khooper_fboats Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 00:35 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Testing Batteries I'm going to an auction in a couple weeks which is advertised as having a lot of forklift batteries for sale among other things. This is what I want to use on the boat and I plan on a heavy electrical regimen so I'm really interested in these if I can get a good price on them. Want to be able to test the batteries if possible before auction. I understand there is no meaningful test if the batteries are not fully charged--if they aren't charged up I guess I just take my chances. If they are charged I'd like to be able to do a load test but have never done it and don't want to pay a lot for an instrument--is these any way to make a homemade load tester? Doesn't have to be pretty, just has to work for one day. --Hoop To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 8328|8318|2005-07-13 11:29:29|khooper_fboats|Re: Testing Batteries|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. > There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or the day > before that either. Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte solution is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't changed much in probably 200 years. I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person building his own marine batteries from components. --Hoop| 8329|8329|2005-07-13 11:50:42|prairiemaidca|V.W. Diesel engine.|Hi All; If anyone is looking for a diesel engine for their project I have a 1.6 litre fully rebuilt V.W. with some spare parts that I was going to use in Prairie Maid. On the water issue I'm planning on a water catching tarp that will go from the spray dodger to the stern with a fitting and hose to the tank fill. Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 8330|8318|2005-07-13 12:31:03|seeratlas|Re: Testing Batteries|Interesting thought. I suppose you could use sheet plastic of a suitable formula, perhaps even clear, so you could see what's going on inside. I have to admit tho, Having never dissected a big battery, I'm not sure what all is involved. One other point, on the venting and containing spillage issue, I used to make my own diving lights out of halogen car headlights and motorcycle batteries. to handle the pressurization and venting/leakage problems with the motorcycle batteries, I used a length of common plastic aquarium air pump hose (clear), glued to the vent nipple on mc battery, and then wound around and around the case much like an old style pressure tube. As long as I made sure no one turned on the lights until UNDER the water, it was amazing how well this outfit worked. The local lobster population didn't stand a chance :) The only negative side effect was that so much light was produced that the area soon was swamped with curious and light drawn sealife, some of it damned big. I have been thinking of using this same remote tube vent system on my diesel/electric battery installation to avoid the buildup of hydrogen/oxygen gas in the bilge/cabin and various places the batteries will be located, and to prevent leakage during a possible roll and the sloshing that goes on in a seaway. One last thought on batteries. When you plan your installation, make sure that each battery is easy to get to for topping off and inspection, and that they are SECURED solidly.The easier it is to do, the more it will get done. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. > > There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or the day > > before that either. > > Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us > from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven > thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte solution > is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from > commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't > changed much in probably 200 years. > > I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, > and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, > and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the > available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. > > Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person > building his own marine batteries from components. > > --Hoop | 8331|8318|2005-07-13 12:56:48|Courtney Thomas|Re: Testing Batteries|Pardon my ignorance, but what was the purpose of winding the hose "around and around" the case ? I'm afraid I didn't follow what was going on :-) Thank you, Courtney On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:30, seeratlas wrote: > Interesting thought. I suppose you could use sheet plastic of a > suitable formula, perhaps even clear, so you could see what's going on > inside. I have to admit tho, Having never dissected a big battery, I'm > not sure what all is involved. > > One other point, on the venting and containing spillage issue, I used > to make my own diving lights out of halogen car headlights and > motorcycle batteries. to handle the pressurization and venting/leakage > problems with the motorcycle batteries, I used a length of common > plastic aquarium air pump hose (clear), glued to the vent nipple on mc > battery, and then wound around and around the case much like an old > style pressure tube. As long as I made sure no one turned on the > lights until UNDER the water, it was amazing how well this outfit > worked. The local lobster population didn't stand a chance :) The only > negative side effect was that so much light was produced that the area > soon was swamped with curious and light drawn sealife, some of it > damned big. > > I have been thinking of using this same remote tube vent system on my > diesel/electric battery installation to avoid the buildup of > hydrogen/oxygen gas in the bilge/cabin and various places the > batteries will be located, and to prevent leakage during a possible > roll and the sloshing that goes on in a seaway. > > One last thought on batteries. When you plan your installation, make > sure that each battery is easy to get to for topping off and > inspection, and that they are SECURED solidly.The easier it is to do, > the more it will get done. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. > > > There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or > the day > > > before that either. > > > > Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us > > from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven > > thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte solution > > is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from > > commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't > > changed much in probably 200 years. > > > > I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, > > and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, > > and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the > > available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. > > > > Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person > > building his own marine batteries from components. > > > > --Hoop > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8332|8329|2005-07-13 13:50:00|Carl Nostrand|Re: V.W. Diesel engine.|Were is the engine please? Carl Homer Alaska On Jul 13, 2005, at 7:50 AM, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All; If anyone is looking for a diesel engine for their project I > have a 1.6 litre fully rebuilt V.W. with some spare parts that I was > going to use in Prairie Maid. > On the water issue I'm planning on a water catching tarp that will > go from the spray dodger to the stern with a fitting and hose to the > tank fill. Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8333|8318|2005-07-13 14:26:59|Roger Allman|Re: Testing Batteries|Nothing keeps you from building a battery. It is done in high school physics classes all the time. Much like anything else detailed engineering is necessary to find the optimum power rating versus weight/cost/mfg. For example the power stored or released from a battery is a function of the surface area of the plates. You can build a battery with 3/4" lead plate if you want but it won't be more powerful, just a lot heavier. As the battery cycles all that lead is going to end up somewhere potentially fouling some other part of the battery. The most efficient battery is built from concentric lead pipes. this configuration has the most surface area density. However the smallest diameter plates will limit the efficiency of the larger diameter plates. Which requires some sort of balancing scheme like drilling holes in the larger diameter plate. Which increases mfg costs and wastes material. etc... etc... --- khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > wrote: > > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you > in the pocket. > > There are ways and means, but not on the day of > the auction, or the day > > before that either. > > Well, let me put this question to the group then: > what prevents us > from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to > handle seven > thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the > electrolyte solution > is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are > made from > commonly available plastic, the technology is > primitive and hasn't > changed much in probably 200 years. > > I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak > even if inverted, > and could make plates as heavy as I like for the > price of the lead, > and I could customize the size & shape of the > batteries to fit the > available space, just like we expect to do with > tankage. > > Why is this not done? I have never seen an account > of a person > building his own marine batteries from components. > > --Hoop > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8334|8318|2005-07-13 15:24:14|khooper_fboats|Re: Testing Batteries|> The most efficient battery is built from concentric > lead pipes. this configuration has the most surface > area density. You know, it just occured to me that those twin keels might make really nifty batteries. I mean the keels themselves. I was going to try to stack a bunch of forklift batteries inside there but I wonder now about literally making the keels be batteries with your concentric lead pipes inside. I was going to hang most of my ballast off in bulbs anyway. Surely you would have to keep the sulfuric acid off the steel but other than that, is this a crazy idea? The twin keels aren't good for much otherwise (I mean apart from being foils). Am I bonkers? If you are designing a boat with lots of electrical storage anyway, it would do wonders to keep the weight low... --Hoop| 8335|8318|2005-07-13 19:15:59|seeratlas|Re: winding the tube|I don't remember the exact name but maybe we have a barometer type expert who does, anyway, there is a thing called a bourbon tube or something to that effect. the idea is that a column of air will compress as pressure increases or decreases, well, we need to have air in our submerged lead acid battery, but saltwater and sulfuric acid is a baaaaaaad combination, sooo, the airpump tube is essentially a compressible column of air between the fluid in the battery and the sea water outside. as the light rig submerged, the air in the hose would be compressed by the saltwater entering the open end of the tube, the 'wraps' served to permit sufficient length of tube , i.e. air column, so that even at maxiumum diving deapth, the seawater would NOT compress the air in the tube far enough to reach the fluid in the battery. hope that's clear. oh, and the wraps also prevent any liquid from either end from just rushing thru to the opposite end, thank gravity for that one. also, if you dropped the light, and it rolled over, fluid from either end would only make it around one wrap... get the picture now? :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, but what was the purpose of winding the hose > "around and around" the case ? I'm afraid I didn't follow what was going > on :-) > > Thank you, > > Courtney > > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:30, seeratlas wrote: > > Interesting thought. I suppose you could use sheet plastic of a > > suitable formula, perhaps even clear, so you could see what's going on > > inside. I have to admit tho, Having never dissected a big battery, I'm > > not sure what all is involved. > > > > One other point, on the venting and containing spillage issue, I used > > to make my own diving lights out of halogen car headlights and > > motorcycle batteries. to handle the pressurization and venting/leakage > > problems with the motorcycle batteries, I used a length of common > > plastic aquarium air pump hose (clear), glued to the vent nipple on mc > > battery, and then wound around and around the case much like an old > > style pressure tube. As long as I made sure no one turned on the > > lights until UNDER the water, it was amazing how well this outfit > > worked. The local lobster population didn't stand a chance :) The only > > negative side effect was that so much light was produced that the area > > soon was swamped with curious and light drawn sealife, some of it > > damned big. > > > > I have been thinking of using this same remote tube vent system on my > > diesel/electric battery installation to avoid the buildup of > > hydrogen/oxygen gas in the bilge/cabin and various places the > > batteries will be located, and to prevent leakage during a possible > > roll and the sloshing that goes on in a seaway. > > > > One last thought on batteries. When you plan your installation, make > > sure that each battery is easy to get to for topping off and > > inspection, and that they are SECURED solidly.The easier it is to do, > > the more it will get done. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" wrote: > > > > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. > > > > There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or > > the day > > > > before that either. > > > > > > Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us > > > from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven > > > thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte solution > > > is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from > > > commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't > > > changed much in probably 200 years. > > > > > > I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, > > > and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, > > > and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the > > > available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. > > > > > > Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person > > > building his own marine batteries from components. > > > > > > --Hoop > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8337|8318|2005-07-13 19:21:08|seeratlas|twin keel batteries!|WHOA! now remember, all batteries need to be replaced eventually.... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > The most efficient battery is built from concentric > > lead pipes. this configuration has the most surface > > area density. > > You know, it just occured to me that those twin keels might make > really nifty batteries. I mean the keels themselves. I was going to > try to stack a bunch of forklift batteries inside there but I wonder > now about literally making the keels be batteries with your concentric > lead pipes inside. > > I was going to hang most of my ballast off in bulbs anyway. > > Surely you would have to keep the sulfuric acid off the steel but > other than that, is this a crazy idea? The twin keels aren't good for > much otherwise (I mean apart from being foils). Am I bonkers? If you > are designing a boat with lots of electrical storage anyway, it would > do wonders to keep the weight low... > > --Hoop | 8338|8318|2005-07-13 19:54:25|Carl Nostrand|Re: twin keel batteries!|Very creative solution. Lifting, installing, and maintaining electrical storage systems, is a growth industry. Custom designing battery's and electrical systems for twin keels or any restricted space is a fun science, keep thinking." Powered up keels! " Thanks. Carl On Jul 13, 2005, at 3:21 PM, seeratlas wrote: > WHOA! > now remember, all batteries need to be replaced eventually.... > > seer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: >> >>> The most efficient battery is built from concentric >>> lead pipes. this configuration has the most surface >>> area density. >> >> You know, it just occured to me that those twin keels might make >> really nifty batteries. I mean the keels themselves. I was going to >> try to stack a bunch of forklift batteries inside there but I wonder >> now about literally making the keels be batteries with your concentric >> lead pipes inside. >> >> I was going to hang most of my ballast off in bulbs anyway. >> >> Surely you would have to keep the sulfuric acid off the steel but >> other than that, is this a crazy idea? The twin keels aren't good for >> much otherwise (I mean apart from being foils). Am I bonkers? If you >> are designing a boat with lots of electrical storage anyway, it would >> do wonders to keep the weight low... >> >> --Hoop > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8339|8339|2005-07-13 20:11:13|Glenn Cramond|Period Ship Models|Anyone here into model tall ships? There are a couple of related books on ebay The Period Ship Handbook by Keith Julier Item number: 8318772553 The Period Ship Handbook 2 by Keith Julier Item number: 8318773626 Marine Modelling Starting from Scratch by Philip Hypher Item number: 5987161203 and others by the same seller Regards. Glenn| 8340|8318|2005-07-13 20:43:33|Courtney Thomas|Re: winding the tube|Yes, thank you. So, am I correct that you were then able to submerge the battery w/light to any desired depth and had no problem with salt water intrusion into the battery and that the only requirement was that the hose was very securely attached to the battery ? What kind of light was used that successfully withstood this treatment ? Cordially, Courtney On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 18:15, seeratlas wrote: > I don't remember the exact name but maybe we have a barometer type > expert who does, anyway, there is a thing called a bourbon tube or > something to that effect. the idea is that a column of air will > compress as pressure increases or decreases, well, we need to have air > in our submerged lead acid battery, but saltwater and sulfuric acid is > a baaaaaaad combination, sooo, the airpump tube is essentially a > compressible column of air between the fluid in the battery and the > sea water outside. as the light rig submerged, the air in the hose > would be compressed by the saltwater entering the open end of the > tube, the 'wraps' served to permit sufficient length of tube , i.e. > air column, so that even at maxiumum diving deapth, the seawater would > NOT compress the air in the tube far enough to reach the fluid in the > battery. hope that's clear. > > oh, and the wraps also prevent any liquid from either end from just > rushing thru to the opposite end, thank gravity for that one. > > also, if you dropped the light, and it rolled over, fluid from either > end would only make it around one wrap... > get the picture now? :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance, but what was the purpose of winding the hose > > "around and around" the case ? I'm afraid I didn't follow what was going > > on :-) > > > > Thank you, > > > > Courtney > > > > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:30, seeratlas wrote: > > > Interesting thought. I suppose you could use sheet plastic of a > > > suitable formula, perhaps even clear, so you could see what's going on > > > inside. I have to admit tho, Having never dissected a big battery, I'm > > > not sure what all is involved. > > > > > > One other point, on the venting and containing spillage issue, I used > > > to make my own diving lights out of halogen car headlights and > > > motorcycle batteries. to handle the pressurization and venting/leakage > > > problems with the motorcycle batteries, I used a length of common > > > plastic aquarium air pump hose (clear), glued to the vent nipple on mc > > > battery, and then wound around and around the case much like an old > > > style pressure tube. As long as I made sure no one turned on the > > > lights until UNDER the water, it was amazing how well this outfit > > > worked. The local lobster population didn't stand a chance :) The only > > > negative side effect was that so much light was produced that the area > > > soon was swamped with curious and light drawn sealife, some of it > > > damned big. > > > > > > I have been thinking of using this same remote tube vent system on my > > > diesel/electric battery installation to avoid the buildup of > > > hydrogen/oxygen gas in the bilge/cabin and various places the > > > batteries will be located, and to prevent leakage during a possible > > > roll and the sloshing that goes on in a seaway. > > > > > > One last thought on batteries. When you plan your installation, make > > > sure that each battery is easy to get to for topping off and > > > inspection, and that they are SECURED solidly.The easier it is to do, > > > the more it will get done. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > wrote: > > > > > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. > > > > > There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or > > > the day > > > > > before that either. > > > > > > > > Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us > > > > from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven > > > > thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte > solution > > > > is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from > > > > commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't > > > > changed much in probably 200 years. > > > > > > > > I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, > > > > and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, > > > > and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the > > > > available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. > > > > > > > > Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person > > > > building his own marine batteries from components. > > > > > > > > --Hoop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8341|8318|2005-07-13 21:37:18|Dale J. Robertson|Re: winding the tube|I think you are referring to a bourdon tube which is the working component within most pressure gauges. In a bourdon tube pressure gauge the pressure to be measured is introduced into one end of a helically (sp?) wound thinwall tube. the other end (at the center of the helix) is sealed and attached to the meters needle. the idea is that the pressure causes the helix to 'unwind' . since the outside is fixed the center has to spin. the angle of the spin is an indication of the magnitude of the pressure. Just another bit of nearly useless trivia Dale Courtney Thomas wrote: >Yes, thank you. > >So, am I correct that you were then able to submerge the battery w/light >to any desired depth and had no problem with salt water intrusion into >the battery and that the only requirement was that the hose was very >securely attached to the battery ? > >What kind of light was used that successfully withstood this treatment ? > >Cordially, >Courtney > > >On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 18:15, seeratlas wrote: > > >>I don't remember the exact name but maybe we have a barometer type >>expert who does, anyway, there is a thing called a bourbon tube or >>something to that effect. the idea is that a column of air will >>compress as pressure increases or decreases, well, we need to have air >>in our submerged lead acid battery, but saltwater and sulfuric acid is >>a baaaaaaad combination, sooo, the airpump tube is essentially a >>compressible column of air between the fluid in the battery and the >>sea water outside. as the light rig submerged, the air in the hose >>would be compressed by the saltwater entering the open end of the >>tube, the 'wraps' served to permit sufficient length of tube , i.e. >>air column, so that even at maxiumum diving deapth, the seawater would >>NOT compress the air in the tube far enough to reach the fluid in the >>battery. hope that's clear. >> >>oh, and the wraps also prevent any liquid from either end from just >>rushing thru to the opposite end, thank gravity for that one. >> >>also, if you dropped the light, and it rolled over, fluid from either >>end would only make it around one wrap... >>get the picture now? :) >> >>seer >> >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas >>wrote: >> >> >>>Pardon my ignorance, but what was the purpose of winding the hose >>>"around and around" the case ? I'm afraid I didn't follow what was going >>>on :-) >>> >>>Thank you, >>> >>>Courtney >>> >>>On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:30, seeratlas wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Interesting thought. I suppose you could use sheet plastic of a >>>>suitable formula, perhaps even clear, so you could see what's going on >>>>inside. I have to admit tho, Having never dissected a big battery, I'm >>>>not sure what all is involved. >>>> >>>>One other point, on the venting and containing spillage issue, I used >>>>to make my own diving lights out of halogen car headlights and >>>>motorcycle batteries. to handle the pressurization and venting/leakage >>>>problems with the motorcycle batteries, I used a length of common >>>>plastic aquarium air pump hose (clear), glued to the vent nipple on mc >>>>battery, and then wound around and around the case much like an old >>>>style pressure tube. As long as I made sure no one turned on the >>>>lights until UNDER the water, it was amazing how well this outfit >>>>worked. The local lobster population didn't stand a chance :) The only >>>>negative side effect was that so much light was produced that the area >>>>soon was swamped with curious and light drawn sealife, some of it >>>>damned big. >>>> >>>>I have been thinking of using this same remote tube vent system on my >>>>diesel/electric battery installation to avoid the buildup of >>>>hydrogen/oxygen gas in the bilge/cabin and various places the >>>>batteries will be located, and to prevent leakage during a possible >>>>roll and the sloshing that goes on in a seaway. >>>> >>>>One last thought on batteries. When you plan your installation, make >>>>sure that each battery is easy to get to for topping off and >>>>inspection, and that they are SECURED solidly.The easier it is to do, >>>>the more it will get done. >>>> >>>>seer >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" >>>>> >>>>> >>wrote: >> >> >>>>>>Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. >>>>>>There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>the day >>>> >>>> >>>>>>before that either. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us >>>>>from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven >>>>>thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte >>>>> >>>>> >>solution >> >> >>>>>is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from >>>>>commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't >>>>>changed much in probably 200 years. >>>>> >>>>>I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, >>>>>and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, >>>>>and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the >>>>>available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. >>>>> >>>>>Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person >>>>>building his own marine batteries from components. >>>>> >>>>>--Hoop >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> >>>> >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8342|8342|2005-07-13 21:42:42|seeratlas|best written piece on this critical subject I've ever seen|http://www.moq.org/forum/Pirsig/cruisingblues.html seer| 8343|8318|2005-07-13 22:26:22|seeratlas|Re: winding the tube|these were old sealed beam car headlights :) worked great as long as you didn't fire em up till they were in the water, the water kept em cool, if you fired em hot in air they would blow when they hit the water. I've had mine down as far as 240ft but most people don't care to dive that deep and truth be told I would spend a few months in training before I went down that far myself these days. gawd I hate getting old LOL. what made it nice for lobster work was that the battery being heavy would sit well on the rocks and bottom, I attached the light with cables bolted to the terminals to a simple togle, then the headlight terminals. the lamp could then be independently directed from the battery. at 60 feet or higher, it really lights up the bottom, just remember, in the sea at night, light starts to gather up lots of little things, for which slightly bigger things come hunting, and so on and so on...so be aware of what's going on around you. things can get really exciting by the time the really big shadows start to appear and by then your options are kindof limited...did I ever tell you about the time I was playing around with wolf eels off alaska and I turned around to see one of the world's biggest eyeballs at about 3 feet? attached to about 35 feet of bull killerwhale? Now THAT was a Kodak moment. :) seer seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Yes, thank you. > > So, am I correct that you were then able to submerge the battery w/light > to any desired depth and had no problem with salt water intrusion into > the battery and that the only requirement was that the hose was very > securely attached to the battery ? > > What kind of light was used that successfully withstood this treatment ? > > Cordially, > Courtney > > > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 18:15, seeratlas wrote: > > I don't remember the exact name but maybe we have a barometer type > > expert who does, anyway, there is a thing called a bourbon tube or > > something to that effect. the idea is that a column of air will > > compress as pressure increases or decreases, well, we need to have air > > in our submerged lead acid battery, but saltwater and sulfuric acid is > > a baaaaaaad combination, sooo, the airpump tube is essentially a > > compressible column of air between the fluid in the battery and the > > sea water outside. as the light rig submerged, the air in the hose > > would be compressed by the saltwater entering the open end of the > > tube, the 'wraps' served to permit sufficient length of tube , i.e. > > air column, so that even at maxiumum diving deapth, the seawater would > > NOT compress the air in the tube far enough to reach the fluid in the > > battery. hope that's clear. > > > > oh, and the wraps also prevent any liquid from either end from just > > rushing thru to the opposite end, thank gravity for that one. > > > > also, if you dropped the light, and it rolled over, fluid from either > > end would only make it around one wrap... > > get the picture now? :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > > Pardon my ignorance, but what was the purpose of winding the hose > > > "around and around" the case ? I'm afraid I didn't follow what was going > > > on :-) > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Courtney > > > > > > On Wed, 2005-07-13 at 11:30, seeratlas wrote: > > > > Interesting thought. I suppose you could use sheet plastic of a > > > > suitable formula, perhaps even clear, so you could see what's going on > > > > inside. I have to admit tho, Having never dissected a big battery, I'm > > > > not sure what all is involved. > > > > > > > > One other point, on the venting and containing spillage issue, I used > > > > to make my own diving lights out of halogen car headlights and > > > > motorcycle batteries. to handle the pressurization and venting/leakage > > > > problems with the motorcycle batteries, I used a length of common > > > > plastic aquarium air pump hose (clear), glued to the vent nipple on mc > > > > battery, and then wound around and around the case much like an old > > > > style pressure tube. As long as I made sure no one turned on the > > > > lights until UNDER the water, it was amazing how well this outfit > > > > worked. The local lobster population didn't stand a chance :) The only > > > > negative side effect was that so much light was produced that the area > > > > soon was swamped with curious and light drawn sealife, some of it > > > > damned big. > > > > > > > > I have been thinking of using this same remote tube vent system on my > > > > diesel/electric battery installation to avoid the buildup of > > > > hydrogen/oxygen gas in the bilge/cabin and various places the > > > > batteries will be located, and to prevent leakage during a possible > > > > roll and the sloshing that goes on in a seaway. > > > > > > > > One last thought on batteries. When you plan your installation, make > > > > sure that each battery is easy to get to for topping off and > > > > inspection, and that they are SECURED solidly.The easier it is to do, > > > > the more it will get done. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > > > wrote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D CAIN" > > wrote: > > > > > > Without a reliable history, the pig will poke you in the pocket. > > > > > > There are ways and means, but not on the day of the auction, or > > > > the day > > > > > > before that either. > > > > > > > > > > Well, let me put this question to the group then: what prevents us > > > > > from building our own batteries? I mean, I have to handle seven > > > > > thousand lbs of lead for the ballast anyway, the electrolyte > > solution > > > > > is available in powder form for cheap, the cases are made from > > > > > commonly available plastic, the technology is primitive and hasn't > > > > > changed much in probably 200 years. > > > > > > > > > > I could make extremely heavy cases that won't leak even if inverted, > > > > > and could make plates as heavy as I like for the price of the lead, > > > > > and I could customize the size & shape of the batteries to fit the > > > > > available space, just like we expect to do with tankage. > > > > > > > > > > Why is this not done? I have never seen an account of a person > > > > > building his own marine batteries from components. > > > > > > > > > > --Hoop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8344|8318|2005-07-13 23:11:36|kendall|Re: twin keel batteries!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > WHOA! > now remember, all batteries need to be replaced eventually.... > > seer Very true, but if you're building them, it would be feasable to design them to be serviceable it would enable easy rebuilding on a regular basis. Problem would be to make them so they use parts that would be easy to obtain, or fab up easily enough that it would be worth it. Ken.| 8345|8342|2005-07-14 08:33:20|Gerd|Re: best written piece on this critical subject I've ever seen|Interesting piece... is that the same Pirsig as in Robert M. Pirsig , Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ? One of my few all time favorite books. Lifechanger. Gerd The Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > http://www.moq.org/forum/Pirsig/cruisingblues.html > seer | 8346|8342|2005-07-14 10:51:23|Bruce Hallman|Re: best written piece on this critical subject I've ever seen|On 7/14/05, Gerd wrote: > Interesting piece... is that the same Pirsig as in Robert M. Pirsig , > Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ? Clearly yes. See: http://www.psybertron.org/timeline.html Interesting, zen and the art of living aboard.| 8347|8347|2005-07-14 13:01:47|prairiemaidca|V.W. Diesel engine. Location|Hi All: I have the engine in my heated workshop on our acreage 30min west of Edmonton Alberta Canada.| 8348|8325|2005-07-14 15:17:04|brentswain38|Re: Water filters|I see that ceramic filtres down to .o3 microns are available at Canadian toire for $28. You can weld up the filtre housing from stainless in 15 minutes , and that fine a filtrwe will take out all micro organisms. Most are 2.5 microns , according to Mexican doctors. My father said that during the war , trucks with banks of ceramic filtres would follow them around and could purify water from any water puddle to almost distilled level. No such problems with rain water Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > Last year I drank a coffee in Mexico at 930am. At noon I was running > for my hotel room. I spent 4 days either on the head or in the > shower. > I lost 15lbs and was so dehydrated my w/ring fell off. Only > antibiotics and a smart Doctor from Carolina saved my guts from > emploding. I thought I was going to meet my maker. > Thus I have installed a four stage water filter plus ultra violet on > my boat. This Aqua Smart Technologies system removes metals, > chlorine, zaps bugs and everthing else. Filters are $100 a year. I > can't remember the hours life on the uv. The system is sold at their > own store @ 3122 Beta Street @ 294-4041. > Water should be treated with care. It can't be too clean. > Whatever bug visited my bowels almost killed me. I have 300 gallons > of water on board in four tanks and now I won't worry if the source is > a garden hose on a Gulf Island dock. > You have to be on the head for 4 days to appreciate it as an > economical investment that brings great piece of mind. | 8349|8349|2005-07-14 15:20:28|brentgeery|FS: 26' plans & book|I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent Swain's 26 footer and my copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal Boatbuilding-- A Heretics Guide" $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. Pleae email me directly at fasttimes (@) mochamail.com| 8350|8339|2005-07-14 15:20:37|brentswain38|Re: Period Ship Models|Try the book " Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier" by Underhill Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Cramond" wrote: > Anyone here into model tall ships? > > There are a couple of related books on ebay > The Period Ship Handbook by Keith Julier Item number: 8318772553 > The Period Ship Handbook 2 by Keith Julier Item number: 8318773626 > Marine Modelling Starting from Scratch by Philip Hypher Item number: > 5987161203 > > and others by the same seller > > Regards. > > Glenn | 8351|8342|2005-07-14 15:52:51|Gerd|Re: best written piece on this critical subject I've ever seen|Strange, I never new who or what he was - just read the book about a dozen times and never felt the need to look out for the man himself. didn't know about the second book either. Surprised that he is a sailor - and then again, not at all.. thanks Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > On 7/14/05, Gerd wrote: > > Interesting piece... is that the same Pirsig as in Robert M. Pirsig , > > Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ? > > Clearly yes. See: > > http://www.psybertron.org/timeline.html > > Interesting, zen and the art of living aboard. | 8352|8342|2005-07-14 23:04:32|sae140|Re: best written piece on this critical subject I've ever seen|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > On 7/14/05, Gerd wrote: > > Interesting piece... is that the same Pirsig as in Robert M. Pirsig , > > Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ? > > Clearly yes. See: His follow-up book "Lila - an inquiry into morals" is a good read too - where he travels on his yacht, rather than motorcycle, but it's not in the same league as Zen&AMM. imho Colin| 8353|8318|2005-07-15 05:11:19|sae140|Re: Testing Batteries|You *can* make batteries from lead sheet, and they'll last for many years, but their AH capacity won't compare with off-the-shelf units. To achieve large capacity, automotive battery manufacturers use spongy lead, which has a vastly increased surface area. (Haven't a clue how it's made) But the downside is that this is a relatively weak material, and begins to disintegrate when heavily sulphated during times of excessive discharge. Once the plates begin to disintegrate, it's a one- way downhill process. The knackered lead is usually deposited at the bottom of the cell as a dark powder, although sometimes a plate reinforcing rib can come loose and if it doesn't drop clear can permanently short-circuit that cell - although a lot depends on what kind of inter-plate insulation has been used. That's why knackered batteries have very little easily recoverable lead - 'cause it's all been oxidised to lead sulphate. As a youngster, I remember buying de-sulphating tablets on several occasions which claimed to be able to rejuvenate dead or dying lead-acid batteries. They never worked. Can't say for sure they were a con, but I have my suspicions ... Colin| 8354|8354|2005-07-15 14:41:51|alexforsail|Battery Charging|I recently read of a cruiser (with a steel boat) who has been charging his battery system with surplus "Carbon Pile" voltage regulators. These are very inexpensive and have a similar charging curve to the "Expensive" solid state devices. With all the expertise on this board can someone explain how this works or has experience? Alex H| 8355|8355|2005-07-15 14:42:51|brentswain38|Lining the hull|Some people have completely lined the hulls with plywod after foaming, a complete waste of time and money. All that is needed is to build your interior in , then cover any foam which is showing. I've piled everything from canned goods to tools on foam for 21 years and it doesn't look much different from when it was first sprayed in. What do you do with a lined hull if a mold starts to grow behind the lining? Brent| 8356|8349|2005-07-15 14:45:14|brentswain38|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|Did you build the boat? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" wrote: > I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent Swain's 26 footer and my > copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal Boatbuilding-- A Heretics Guide" > $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. Pleae email me directly at > fasttimes (@) mochamail.com | 8357|8349|2005-07-15 15:04:37|brentgeery|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|No, and I won't be able to, at least not a metal boat. Looking back into wood. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Did you build the boat? > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > wrote: > > I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent Swain's 26 footer and my > > copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal Boatbuilding-- A Heretics Guide" > > $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. Pleae email me directly at > > fasttimes (@) mochamail.com | 8358|8354|2005-07-16 05:40:08|sae140|Re: Battery Charging|Don't have first-hand experience (these pre-date my entry into the world) but have just looked this up: "The carbon pile regulator is basically a resistor in series with the generator field coil. It is formed of carbon granules, and its resistance is dependent on the pressure applied across the granules. The output voltage from the generator is used to drive an electro magnet inside the regulator which controls the pressure across the granules. Levers driven by the electro magnet apply a force on the granules in such a way that if the voltage rises and the electro magnet exerts more force the pressure across the granules falls, the resistance therefore increases and the voltage falls back again." Pretty ancient technology then, 1930's or before ? I would think that making one of these would be more expensive than buying several modern units. Suggestion: you can always rob voltage regulators from old or worn-out alternators for free or near free. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alexforsail" wrote: > I recently read of a cruiser (with a steel boat) who has been charging > his battery system with surplus "Carbon Pile" voltage regulators. > These are very inexpensive and have a similar charging curve to the > "Expensive" solid state devices. With all the expertise on this board > can someone explain how this works or has experience? > > Alex H | 8359|8318|2005-07-16 21:10:10|Henri Naths|Re: Testing Batteries|Hi all, I remember back in the early eighties, in Penticton we use to be able to buy reconditioned automotive batteries. I don't know what was all involved but it looked like the fellow had just cut off the top and replaced the bad cell(s) H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: 15 July, 2005 3:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Testing Batteries > You *can* make batteries from lead sheet, and they'll > last for many years, but their AH capacity won't > compare with off-the-shelf units. To achieve large > capacity, automotive battery manufacturers use spongy > lead, which has a vastly increased surface area. > (Haven't a clue how it's made) > But the downside is that this is a relatively weak > material, and begins to disintegrate when heavily > sulphated during times of excessive discharge. > Once the plates begin to disintegrate, it's a one- > way downhill process. The knackered lead is usually > deposited at the bottom of the cell as a dark powder, > although sometimes a plate reinforcing rib can come > loose and if it doesn't drop clear can permanently > short-circuit that cell - although a lot depends on > what kind of inter-plate insulation has been used. > That's why knackered batteries have very little > easily recoverable lead - 'cause it's all been > oxidised to lead sulphate. > > As a youngster, I remember buying de-sulphating > tablets on several occasions which claimed to be able > to rejuvenate dead or dying lead-acid batteries. > They never worked. Can't say for sure they were a > con, but I have my suspicions ... > > Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8360|8349|2005-07-17 07:02:27|Puck III|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|Hi Brent,what kinda wooden boat? planing to buy or to build ? as usual , just curious to know and hear about your designgoal and plans . why the sudden change form metal to wood ? regards. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" wrote: > No, and I won't be able to, at least not a metal boat. Looking back > into wood. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Did you build the boat? > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > > wrote: > > > I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent Swain's 26 footer and my > > > copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal Boatbuilding-- A Heretics Guide" > > > $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. Pleae email me directly at > > > fasttimes (@) mochamail.com | 8361|869|2005-07-17 17:17:43|Gerd|welding|I finally started welding this weekend. There is still a little bit of work on framing and structure, but I thought I would put some hours in to get welding again after all these years. Well, the 2 mm plating on deck and cabin is not as easy as I remembered :-( 20 years since the last boat is a long time, for my eyes to get worse, my knees and back to get stiffer when kneeling, the hand is not as steady... I had thought anyway to get some local help here, not that much time and if somebody could come welding for a couple of days, that would let me do other things. But my silly pride .. won't ask until I am back to nice clean welds myself. Eletrodes: before I was using 6013 for everything, but recently I came across some 7014 and they seem to burn more stable. the problem is that 2 mm is really thin, as soon as I hesitate or insist a little bit or have a gap it all just melts away and leaves me with a gaping hole. Hey, you welding wizards: what's your preferred electrode for welding nasty seams in thin plating in all positions?? BTW, I just got a DC inverter welding machine... VERY nice!!! when I did the last boat these things did not exist. Not only is the welding much smoother and more consistent in spite of our shaky current, but the best part is the neat little radio button that lets me adjust the power with the left hand even while I'm welding! Gerd The YAGO Project at http://wwww.justmueller.com/boats/| 8362|869|2005-07-18 02:01:55|Wesley Cox|Re: welding|6010 DC is good for relatively clean metal. IMO, a little less prone to blowing through than 6011. It's one of the better DC rods for cleaning, though not nearly as good as AC. If the metal is dirty or exceedingly rusty, 6011. No larger than 3/32" rods for less current. I personally prefer 5/64" with even less current for as thin as 16 ga., ~ 1.6 mm, but it isn't always readily available where I live. Gerd wrote: > I finally started welding this weekend. > > There is still a little bit of work on framing and structure, but I > thought I would put some hours in to get welding again after all > these years. > > Well, the 2 mm plating on deck and cabin is not as easy as I > remembered :-( > > 20 years since the last boat is a long time, for my eyes to get > worse, my knees and back to get stiffer when kneeling, the hand is > not as steady... I had thought anyway to get some local help here, > not that much time and if somebody could come welding for a couple > of days, that would let me do other things. But my silly pride .. > won't ask until I am back to nice clean welds myself. > > Eletrodes: before I was using 6013 for everything, but recently I > came across some 7014 and they seem to burn more stable. the problem > is that 2 mm is really thin, as soon as I hesitate or insist a > little bit or have a gap it all just melts away and leaves me with a > gaping hole. > > Hey, you welding wizards: what's your preferred electrode for > welding nasty seams in thin plating in all positions?? > > BTW, I just got a DC inverter welding machine... VERY nice!!! when I > did the last boat these things did not exist. Not only is the > welding much smoother and more consistent in spite of our shaky > current, but the best part is the neat little radio button that lets > me adjust the power with the left hand even while I'm welding! > > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project at http://wwww.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8363|869|2005-07-18 05:51:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding|Gerd, I use a 50 x 10 copper backing bar for welding thin stuff. It was a scrap piece off a busbar from a plating plant. Regards, Ted| 8364|8364|2005-07-18 12:49:26|daletrautman|Steering Helms & Keel Cooler|I have new Marol steering helms,1.8 cu. in. I will sell for half of new ,have two of them@$ 300.00 a piece.Also a Walters keel cooler ,3 in. double ended model,8 tubes 5 ft. long.This was sized for a 300 hp. diesel.$1,200.This goes for about$4,000.new ,now.Anyone know of anyone needing these,call 509- 685- 9321 thanks, Dale| 8365|8349|2005-07-18 16:42:39|brentswain38|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|I'd never dream of building a boat out of wood( Dead vegitation) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Brent,what kinda wooden boat? > planing to buy or to build ? > as usual , just curious to know and hear about > your designgoal and plans . > why the sudden change form metal to wood ? > regards. > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > wrote: > > No, and I won't be able to, at least not a metal boat. Looking back > > into wood. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Did you build the boat? > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > > > wrote: > > > > I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent Swain's 26 footer and > my > > > > copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal Boatbuilding-- A Heretics > Guide" > > > > $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. Pleae email me > directly at > > > > fasttimes (@) mochamail.com | 8366|8349|2005-07-18 17:36:56|Wesley Cox|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|I think this was addressed to "brentgeery". :) brentswain38 wrote: > > I'd never dream of building a boat out of wood( Dead vegitation) > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Brent,what kinda wooden boat? > > planing to buy or to build ? > > as usual , just curious to know and hear about > > your designgoal and plans . > > why the sudden change form metal to wood ? > > regards. > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > > wrote: > > > No, and I won't be able to, at least not a metal boat. Looking > back > > > into wood. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > Did you build the boat? > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent Swain's 26 footer > and > > my > > > > > copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal Boatbuilding-- A Heretics > > Guide" > > > > > $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. Pleae email me > > directly at > > > > > fasttimes (@) mochamail.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8367|8349|2005-07-18 18:54:38|haider daikh|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|Dear Brent Did you recieve my e-mail? I send the money this morning, Have a nice day Haider ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 8368|8349|2005-07-18 18:54:46|haider daikh|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|--- brentswain38 wrote: > > I'd never dream of building a boat out of wood( Dead > vegitation) > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > Hi Brent,what kinda wooden boat? > > planing to buy or to build ? > > as usual , just curious to know and hear about > > your designgoal and plans . > > why the sudden change form metal to wood ? > > regards. > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentgeery" > > > wrote: > > > No, and I won't be able to, at least not a metal > boat. Looking > back > > > into wood. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > Did you build the boat? > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "brentgeery" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I'd like to sell my set of plans for Brent > Swain's 26 footer > and > > my > > > > > copy of Brent's book "Origami Metal > Boatbuilding-- A Heretics > > Guide" > > > > > $180 for both. That's about $45 savings. > Pleae email me > > directly at > > > > > fasttimes (@) mochamail.com > > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 8369|8342|2005-07-18 20:04:56|Gary|Re: best written piece on this critical subject I've ever seen|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > http://www.moq.org/forum/Pirsig/cruisingblues.html > seer Inciteful, true & helpful Gary| 8370|8370|2005-07-20 00:45:39|jnikadie|My new toy ...|I finally fired up my new toy ... a combo plasma cutter, arc welder, TIG welder. I don't yet have a torch to use the arc welder, nor the gas gear to use the TIG welder, but I finally got a compressor and now at least I can use the plasma cutter function. Early days yet, but I've gotta say that I'm happy so far!| 8371|869|2005-07-20 05:42:40|sae140|Re: welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Well, the 2 mm plating on deck and cabin is not as easy as I > remembered :-( > > the problem > is that 2 mm is really thin, as soon as I hesitate or insist a > little bit or have a gap it all just melts away and leaves me with a > gaping hole. > Hi Gerd A couple of years back I played with a multi-purpose inverter - you know the sort of thing: MIG/TIG/ARC and probably plasma cutter - it had about 60 knobs on the front panel and it wouldn't have surprised me if there had been one there for riveting wrought-iron .... ;-) It was a dream to use and had the facility to automatically start an arc when the electrode was about 1 or 2 mm from the workpiece. Once 'struck', the arc length could be expanded to about 5 or 6 mm without losing it. That was a brilliant facility to have especially when the amps were turned right down. I'm pretty sure you could have arc-welded down to less than 1 mm with that. However, back to the real world ...... 2mm is right on the limit of what I can successfully weld with my simple "1 current knob and a tig switch" inverter using electrode +ve. In my limited experience it's the heat dump capacity of the workpiece which is critical, so like yourself I find burn-through when working with relatively small areas to be a constant problem. One second's hesitation is all it takes. Tacking is usually the worse candidate, whereas I find large areas - like the butt-welding of long seams - to be less of a problem by using a figure-of-eight or a spiral weave where the electrode is constantly moving. Whether this works by the constant electrode movement, or by increased heat-dumping by the widening of the weld pool - I really couldn't say. I'm sure the professionals out there will say that this is bad practice, but I find a solid hammer-proof weld results, with no observable undercutting. Melt-through still persists at the very ends of butt welds, presumably due to less area for heat dumping, where a copper backing plate is called for, as Ted suggests. I've recently bought a MIG welder to use with thin material, but it seems to be more of a glue-gun than a welder. More practice needed, I guess. Colin| 8372|8372|2005-07-20 16:26:24|daletrautman|boat parts|I have a couple of new steering helms and a walters keel cooler on ebay,ends in two days, good deal half of new price .thaks,dale| 8373|8373|2005-07-20 22:43:56|khooper_fboats|Origami Canoe/Need CAD Drafting|I wonder if anybody on this list with CAD/unfold capability would be interested in designing a couple canoes. The idea is resin-infused monocoque canoes in GRP (polypropylene honeycomb and Kevlar). Please contact me off-list. Thx, --Hoop| 8374|8349|2005-07-21 01:49:29|jim dorey|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:42:03 -0300, brentswain38 wrote: > > I'd never dream of building a boat out of wood( Dead vegitation) > Brent how bout epoxy, glass, foam and tyvek(skin boat)? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8375|869|2005-07-21 04:11:28|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding|Gerd, Some more thought on welding thin sheet: 1. Make sure the welder's open circuit voltage is high enough for the rods. 2. Check with your welding rod manufacturer's technical expert to see if they have a rod more suitable for thin gauge sheet. I use Thyssen rods mostly and their UK technical man was very helpful and I went to their depot and we did some trial welding. They have 5 different grades of 6013 rods, at least one of which, and I can't remember which one is less penetrative. Changing the polarity of the electrode, on a DC welder gives more or less penetration, although I found it hard to detect the difference. 3. Distortion will be a problem so tiny back stitching will be necessary. 4. An auto darkening helmet allows one to use the capability of some DC inverter welders of starting the arc by holding the electrode just off the workpiece. Clean metal helps with this. This helps in make a lot of tiny stitches. Regards, Ted| 8376|8376|2005-07-21 16:29:14|jericoera|Welding-quick reference|Application: arc welding 1/16, 3/32, 1/8, 5/32" electrodes Base metal thickness 1/8 - 1/4 " Suggested shade number lens 9-10 Stainless Steel DC Reverse (positive) E-308-15 , E-310-15 AC E-308-16, E-347-16 Mild Steel AC E-6011, E 7014, E-7018 DC Reverse (Positive) E-6010, 5P, E-7018 I have extracted this info from a book written by Richard finch called WELDER'S HANDBOOK "A complete guide to MIG, TIG, ARC & Oxyacetylene welding. While complete may be an overstatement, it is well written for the novice and is not so thick that you will be intimidated by it. The book also tells you how to make your own jigs for various setups which I found very valuable as well as where to get certain specialty clamps etc if you are inclined that way. Hope that the new people will find this useful--I did. Carl| 8377|869|2005-07-22 10:02:18|Gerd|Re: welding|Thank you all for your tips and hints - looks like another rain-free weekend is coming, so will just battle on ;-) will keep you up to date Cheers, Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8378|8378|2005-07-23 01:28:42|Puck III|Clean windows :-)|for those that are not sailing yet http://www.legrady.hu/sc.html have a good week-end Old Ben| 8379|8379|2005-07-23 02:07:17|jnikadie|guyrisser|Guy, I received your email, but am unable to reply ("Sorry your message to xxx@... cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102].") ... please email from a working address and I'll reply to your questions. J.| 8380|8373|2005-07-23 11:48:49|Puck III|Re: Origami Canoe/Need CAD Drafting|Can you post some links or pics to the kind of canoes you have in mind ? In the Repository Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrigamiPlyBoatDesign/ you will find some Links : see - Designs & models from Poland - Selway Fisher's Origami stockplans for - 16' Beaver - 20' SeaJay pics in Files , adress in Links ( Naval-architects & Designers ) Some members could have an interest to sell you cheap tooling for light Roto-Mould. Regards Old Ben -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > I wonder if anybody on this list with CAD/unfold capability would be > interested in designing a couple canoes. The idea is resin-infused > monocoque canoes in GRP (polypropylene honeycomb and Kevlar). Please > contact me off-list. > > Thx, > > --Hoop | 8381|8379|2005-07-23 20:28:41|GUY|Re: guyrisser|-----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jnikadie Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] guyrisser Guy, I received your email, but am unable to reply ("Sorry your message to xxx@... cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102].") ... please email from a working address and I'll reply to your questions. J. J, Thanks for the error message. I think the account is working now. Thanks, Guy To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8382|8373|2005-07-24 23:44:17|khooper_fboats|Re: Origami Canoe/Need CAD Drafting|Hi Ben, I'm thinking about a 15' and a 19' version. What I want to do is work from a single sheet of plastic honeycomb material and fold a canoe that is as fair as possible and has a good bit of tumblehome. This has its darts glued with epoxy/microballoon slurry and is bound up with duct tape to cure. When cured, complete monocoque canoe with no bracing, frames or stringers. Second step is to lay fabric, bag, and infuse the entire canoe with resin at once, inside and out simultaneously. Possible to use a tortured ply design but would like to minimize seams. The Beaver design below is in the zone but has rather severe flare judging from the pictures. Thanks for the pointers, will post this to the origamiplyboatdesign group as well. --Hoop --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Can you post some links or pics to the kind of canoes you > have in mind ? In the Repository Group > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrigamiPlyBoatDesign/ > you will find some Links : see > - Designs & models from Poland > - Selway Fisher's Origami stockplans for > - 16' Beaver > - 20' SeaJay pics in Files , adress in Links > ( Naval-architects & Designers ) > Some members could have an interest > to sell you cheap tooling for light Roto-Mould. > Regards > Old Ben > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > I wonder if anybody on this list with CAD/unfold capability would > be > > interested in designing a couple canoes. The idea is > resin-infused > > monocoque canoes in GRP (polypropylene honeycomb and > Kevlar). Please > > contact me off-list. > > > > Thx, > > > > --Hoop | 8383|8373|2005-07-25 09:18:53|seeratlas|Re: Origami Canoe/Need CAD Drafting|Hmmm, couple of things to consider, I've spent a bit of time in canoes and kayaks, of all types of materials and most designs and would offer the following suggestions to think about. First, one problem with a uniform sheet monocoque is that to get the highly stressed areas of the boats strong enough, if you are using a uniform skin thickness, the boats are going to be heavy, which is a BIG deal in kayaks and canoes. You might consider designing for a thinner monocoque skin with some reinforcement or additional thickness in key areas. This will increase your production costs, but will result in a lighter ergo more marketable boat. Assuming this is a business venture remember, the point is to build what you can SELL, not sell what you can build..... Second, as to design features and aesthetics, I'd spend some time with canoe /kayak enthusiasts asking what their needs/desires in a boat are, and what features they would pay for that don't seem to be provided by the currently available boats. Of course all of the foregoing goes out the window if you just want to run up a half dozen radical rigs for yourself and a few friends. :) seer| 8384|8384|2005-07-25 15:02:55|winnobizi|seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Hi pal, I am inventor from hong kong. A Newly patent pending project seek boat builder partner in prototyping and development. An experienced Director in ship building industry is needed in running our business. If you interested, please let me know and submit your Resume to vooflyventure-owner@yahoogroups.com Also any investor, angels for start up or VC who intereted in investing start up on new concept may join too. vooflyventure-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to join please send email to above email address with your company profile or investor informations. Voofly website http://voofly.winno.biz regards, cwwinson, inventor of voofly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8385|8384|2005-07-25 15:45:04|Gerd|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Interesting idea, but what's the business deal? Selling wetted area by the acre? ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > Hi pal, > > I am inventor from hong kong. > > A Newly patent pending project seek boat builder partner in prototyping and development. > > An experienced Director in ship building industry is needed in running our business. If you interested, please let me know and submit your Resume to vooflyventure-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > Also any investor, angels for start up or VC who intereted in investing start up on new concept may join too. > > > vooflyventure-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > to join please send email to above email address with your company profile or investor informations. > > Voofly website > http://voofly.winno.biz > > regards, > cwwinson, inventor of voofly > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8386|8386|2005-07-25 19:29:03|seeratlas|Quick Note on Electric drive|Tho I continue to research the use of the Etek motors in my schooner design, I've pretty much decided now that I'm going to go with the elecric drive with a diesel gen/welder aux power set and battery bank. My initial thought of the Etek motor coupled to a short shaft with belts seems to have been a good one. There is an Aussie company manufacturing electric boats now with just that set up. "Solarboat" has a pretty thorough discussion of battery and charger requirements and a host of information on their site. I hear that the Etek is now to appear with a brushless motor design which will further reduce its maintenance requirements. My "current" thinking (hehe) is 3 and perhaps 4 of the Etek's belted to a 1 to 1 1/2" shaft, 18 to 20 inch prop turning at max 1100 rpm. 3 would give me the equiv of a 36 hp diesel continuous, and a 'panic' rating of something around 65 hp for trying to push thru a bar wave or some other sea condition requiring serious power. For batteries I'm looking at 12 of the Trojan 8 volt golf cart batteries which seem to offer the most electrical 'bang' for buck (I'll be running a 48 volt system). Size and type of genset/welder has yet to be determined, tho I'll need around 14 kw available to maintain high speed for any substantial length of time. Since I'm designing for two entirely different conditions, i.e. extended easy cruise (3.5 to 4 knots in the canals and near hull speed for rough water manuevering and adverse currents) the trick is to set up so as to not use more power than I need for the vast majority of anticipated use, while having the reserve ready to kick in to save my bacon when I need it. Depending on what kind of deals fall into my lap, i might even go with two smaller gensets, which will only fire up when required tho space calcs would become critical at that point. In any event, overall the system will be heavy, but not impossibly so, more expensive, but not prohibitively so, and should require far less fuel (the principal set i'm looking at now burns .5 gal an hour which at say 200 gallons, and 6.5 knots (waterline is just under 40 feet) would give me a powered cruise of what? something approaching 2600 miles? Throw in solar, wind and towed generation, and I might be able to kick that up substantially, not to mention sailing :). In any event, the benefits work out to : 1. no vibration, extremely low noise, 2. ability to near silently 'motorsail' effectively reaching optimum cruising speed in all conditions, not just ideal ones, 3. all the self contained electric power anyone could ever want thus enabling me to go with all electric galley, etc.,4. ability to use all sorts of inexpensive mass produced 110v appliances (GE now has some very stylish heavy plastic/ceramic/stainless rangetop burners for something like 24 bucks.) 4. extended diesel life and efficiencies, 5.Ability to still belt redundant critical systems directly off diesel genset (collision bilge pump, emergency alternator etc., hydraulic windlass pump etc.) 6. no transmission required,7. ease of drivetrain maintenance. 8. interior design flexibility since the motors and shaft will take up such a small space and the genset can be placed anywhere; and last but not least, 9. the ability to near silently glide thru the european countryside in the canals :) which is where I intend to spend a great deal of time pondering unknowables and looking back over my life:) Negatives work out to 1. weight-I save weight on size of diesel, no transmission, and less required fuel capacity; I gain weight on batteries, lots of batteries LOL. 2. electrical complexities-tho I have a lot of redundancy (would be highly unlikely that all three motors would break down at the same time) I still have a lot of 'simplicity engineering' to do to ensure sufficient reliability to reach my 'comfort' zone , tho i have to admit, brushless DC motors have essentially one moving part..commercial diesel genset/welders are more than likely at LEAST as reliable as a marine axuillary, and batteries are, if cared for, pretty simple stuff; 3. some thoughtful battery location, tiedown, and ventilation/access design thinking to facilitate service and ensure longevity. So...couple the foregoing with latest rig and ship revisions (sorry Brent, mockups tell me I need one last foot :) and my now 43ft (LOD) schooner with self raising and lowering tabernacle aluminum pole masts, using a modified gaff "soft wing" sail design thus eliminating tracks, slides, hoops and all that 'stuff', including no intermediate spreaders; self tending 'working sails'; removable/tiltable bowsprit, hands free dual anchors forward, one stern; extended and slightly raised cabintop (with corresponding raised cabin sole giving excellent all around viewing) with mount on top for planing/collapsible (and nearly indestructable for that matter) porta-bote dinghy; and....well there's more LOL, but I think its time to start getting set up to build:) Oh, and I think I may even have a name for her...anyone heard of the ancient greek sculptor who couldn't find a woman to suit his taste, so he spent years creating the perfect one out of marble. When the Gods saw her, they were so impressed that they rewarded him by causing her to come to life...her name? "Galatea" seems to fit :) seer| 8387|8384|2005-07-26 05:00:31|sae140|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Check out his other ideas (!): capturing lightning in Florida converting explosives into electricity constructing a building, the architecture of which alone will turn seawater into fresh water (details not given) novel marine propulsion system using magnetic fields (details not given) Using a plastic bandage to recover oil from oil spills so that the oil can be re-sold by the salvor to make a fortune (like - bugger the environmental issues ...) A global temperature lowering system (yeah, right ...) This guy is a genius and has "a wonderful brain". I know this 'cause he says this on his website - and he should know ;-) Seems he's also very modest. And - he's offering YOU a chance to get in on the action: quote: "Only offers for stock shares at least 30% plus lump sum of cash deposit will be considered." Quick - where's my cheque book ..... ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Interesting idea, but what's the business deal? Selling wetted area > by the acre? ;-) > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" > wrote: > > Hi pal, > > > > I am inventor from hong kong. > > > > A Newly patent pending project seek boat builder partner in > prototyping and development. > > > > An experienced Director in ship building industry is needed in > running our business. If you interested, please let me know and > submit your Resume to vooflyventure-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Also any investor, angels for start up or VC who intereted in > investing start up on new concept may join too. > > > > > > vooflyventure-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > to join please send email to above email address with your company > profile or investor informations. > > > > Voofly website > > http://voofly.winno.biz > > > > regards, > > cwwinson, inventor of voofly > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8388|7433|2005-07-26 10:31:03|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|The searchable archive has been updated to current as of 7/25/05 and now contains 8,382 messages. This page features an intelligent search engine and no advertisements. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Please bookmark this site. A link has been placed in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web site if you should forget the link. Regards, --Ken Hooper| 8389|8389|2005-07-26 12:28:40|Sugar|electric motors/drive|Hi Everyone, I have spent the past couple of years talking with Seer regarding motors - all kinds of motors. I have been around boats or had a boat of my own most of my life. They were ALL gas operated boats. And yes most of them were pretty noisey. You just sort of get used to dealing with that noise. It's there so we just accept it. Well, I just got back from a month vacation. While on my trip I spent a lot of time with friends with boats. I had the opportunity to cruise around Newport Beach, Calif with a friend of mine that just happens to use an electric motor. WOW No sound ! It was wonderful. So very quiet. I'm SOLD ! hehehe Sugar| 8390|8384|2005-07-26 12:48:15|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|HI,Colin Thanks reading and visiting my website. I am not surprise you will have this reaction. Over the years, new ideas pump up my head. As an inventor, every new idea is a treasure. And each idea indicate an opportunities in future when it come true. I don't think it is wise to give detail in public, right? Why? I guess you all know why. Every venture have difficulties, and only those who over come it can make it happen. And I don't think myself or anybody can do all these ideas, that is why I am offering the opportunities for partners who are willing to contribute. No venture can be successfully done in nowaday's business. By seeking partners here, I hope those with guts and vision can become miracle of tomorrow. It is too early to comment while venture has not come to the end. Discussion is opened and questions are welcome too. For me, I am optimistic even you may think it cannot be working. I am too please and thanks if you can proof it not working too! For my other ideas, you can forget it if it is not your interests. However, Voofly is what I am proposing to seek relevant partners here. Thanks and regards, cwwinson ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project Check out his other ideas (!): capturing lightning in Florida converting explosives into electricity constructing a building, the architecture of which alone will turn seawater into fresh water (details not given) novel marine propulsion system using magnetic fields (details not given) Using a plastic bandage to recover oil from oil spills so that the oil can be re-sold by the salvor to make a fortune (like - bugger the environmental issues ...) A global temperature lowering system (yeah, right ...) This guy is a genius and has "a wonderful brain". I know this 'cause he says this on his website - and he should know ;-) Seems he's also very modest. And - he's offering YOU a chance to get in on the action: quote: "Only offers for stock shares at least 30% plus lump sum of cash deposit will be considered." Quick - where's my cheque book ..... ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Interesting idea, but what's the business deal? Selling wetted area > by the acre? ;-) > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" > wrote: > > Hi pal, > > > > I am inventor from hong kong. > > > > A Newly patent pending project seek boat builder partner in > prototyping and development. > > > > An experienced Director in ship building industry is needed in > running our business. If you interested, please let me know and > submit your Resume to vooflyventure-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Also any investor, angels for start up or VC who intereted in > investing start up on new concept may join too. > > > > > > vooflyventure-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > to join please send email to above email address with your company > profile or investor informations. > > > > Voofly website > > http://voofly.winno.biz > > > > regards, > > cwwinson, inventor of voofly > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8391|8349|2005-07-26 19:26:25|brentswain38|Re: FS: 26' plans & book|Whatever you buld a boat out of, keep your welder and grinder. By the time you've built anchors, fittings ,winch, tanks, etc etc, they will have paid for themselves many times over. Then you can sell them for not much less than they cost you. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 17:42:03 -0300, brentswain38 > wrote: > > > > > I'd never dream of building a boat out of wood( Dead vegitation) > > Brent > > how bout epoxy, glass, foam and tyvek(skin boat)? > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8392|8392|2005-07-27 03:54:12|jim_both|new type engine|It will be ineresting to follow the development phase of this prototype engine at: http://www.regtech.com/18.html This engine specs include the following: Prototype 42 hp Engine 6 inches dia. 6 inches long 42 hp at 7000 rpm 40lbs. Tested at NAVAIR PSEF Oct. 2003 Jim| 8393|8384|2005-07-27 04:45:03|sae140|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Hello cwwinson I'd already sent you an email before I checked-in at this group, so to keep everybody 'in the loop', you commented to me: " Yes you are right, there is 3X wetted areas that drag. But do you ever think about the Buoyancy where air dispaced? The boat actually has less weight in water." To which I reply: "A ship that weighs 1,000 tons will displace 1,000 tons of water - unfortunately there's nothing you can do about this. Any trapped air in a structure such as you propose will be compressed until 1,000 tons of water is displaced. You need to consider the system as a whole. But if, somehow, you were able to cause a ship to weigh significantly less, then the centre of gravity of the vessel would be raised above it's centre of buoyancy and the ship would then become unstable, and would risk turning over and sinking. A ship needs to have it's centre of gravity low down in the water. This is especially true of container ships whose cargo tends to be located at a higher level than (say) bulk oil. Indeed, empty ships take on salt-water ballast in order to ensure that they remain low in the water. Windage is also a serious issue. I admire your ingenious thinking, but suggest it needs to be tempered with a sound understanding of basic principles. Making a working model of 'revolutionary' concepts usually helps to clarify the issues involved." But - what concerns me more than the flawed thinking involved here, is your invitation for others to invest their money in your dubious business ideas, of which you have many - and all of which are unproven and, at the risk of being thought unkind, appear rather fanciful. However, I'm not an Internet policeman so will say no more on this. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > HI,Colin > > Thanks reading and visiting my website. > > I am not surprise you will have this reaction. > > Over the years, new ideas pump up my head. > > As an inventor, every new idea is a treasure. > > And each idea indicate an opportunities in future when it come true. > > I don't think it is wise to give detail in public, right? Why? I guess you all know why. > > Every venture have difficulties, and only those who over come it can make it happen. > > And I don't think myself or anybody can do all these ideas, that is why I am offering the opportunities for partners who are willing to contribute. No venture can be successfully done in nowaday's business. > > By seeking partners here, I hope those with guts and vision can become miracle of tomorrow. > > It is too early to comment while venture has not come to the end. > > Discussion is opened and questions are welcome too. > > For me, I am optimistic even you may think it cannot be working. I am too please and thanks if you can proof it not working too! > > For my other ideas, you can forget it if it is not your interests. > > However, Voofly is what I am proposing to seek relevant partners here. > > Thanks > and regards, > cwwinson > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:59 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project > > > Check out his other ideas (!): > > capturing lightning in Florida > > converting explosives into electricity > > constructing a building, the architecture of which alone > will turn seawater into fresh water (details not given) > > novel marine propulsion system using magnetic fields > (details not given) > > Using a plastic bandage to recover oil from oil spills > so that the oil can be re-sold by the salvor to make a > fortune (like - bugger the environmental issues ...) > > A global temperature lowering system (yeah, right ...) > > This guy is a genius and has "a wonderful brain". > I know this 'cause he says this on his website - and he > should know ;-) Seems he's also very modest. > > And - he's offering YOU a chance to get in on the action: > quote: "Only offers for stock shares at least 30% plus > lump sum of cash deposit will be considered." > > Quick - where's my cheque book ..... ? > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Interesting idea, but what's the business deal? Selling wetted area > > by the acre? ;-) > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" > > wrote: > > > Hi pal, > > > > > > I am inventor from hong kong. > > > > > > A Newly patent pending project seek boat builder partner in > > prototyping and development. > > > > > > An experienced Director in ship building industry is needed in > > running our business. If you interested, please let me know and > > submit your Resume to vooflyventure-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Also any investor, angels for start up or VC who intereted in > > investing start up on new concept may join too. > > > > > > > > > vooflyventure-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > to join please send email to above email address with your > company > > profile or investor informations. > > > > > > Voofly website > > > http://voofly.winno.biz > > > > > > regards, > > > cwwinson, inventor of voofly > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada > Yacht > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8394|8384|2005-07-27 05:47:18|Gerd|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Hi cwwinson having had a second look at it, I really do not see what the new idea would be: the water trapped in the pocket under your wings or whatever we shall call them would act as floatation that would indeed give a stable hull - just like a trimaran which, being wider, would offer much better stability, no? With the major difference that if you roll your machine, at a certain point your air-traps will be open to the above and all your bouyancy will suddenly disappear and your inverted wings would fill with lotsa water... So what really is the advantage? also, seeing just the section, I can't really see why the air would remain trapped there unless the pockets are closed forward and aft in which case I have trouble imagining the hullshape. Otherwise, I always like to discuss and further any promising new idea, and somewhere in there might really be an interesting idea. But if you look for investment you sure have come to the wrong place with your wonderful invention ;-) gerd| 8395|8384|2005-07-27 11:19:35|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Hi gerd, Nice seeing your reply, Sorry the cross section picture not enough to let you see it clear. I attached one full with cross section. The idea here is simple have a cavity surround the boat's body. Advantage? Well, Safe,fast & comfortable. I do hope you guys can find out why, but I explain it in brief. 1. currently, the boat body have only one layer. If it is broken, then the boat sink accordingly. And here we have one more layer that is three time harder to sink. Even the boat break all layers, if there is one chamber still not broken, will keep it sink slow. That is it sink slower than currently used one. 2. Fast, it is lighter in water when air is kept in the chamber. 3. comfortable, the currently used one will have free falling when it is raised to leave the water surface. Speedboat players know it clear. In voofly, the boat will stick to the surface. It add extra weight to let wave raise the boat, the suction of air in the chamber. Furthermore, the impact of the wave hitting the boat body can be minimized when there is a layer of air acted as cushion. Only these three points are too good to be true, isn't it? This is biggest break through in ship building industry, isn't it? Whether or not it is difficult to build, ask me. I will help solve the manufacturing problem. I need someone who like difficulties not avoiding them. Difficulties turns one great. I like to help great people to do something great. Join me and let's work it out. What I in need? Money? No, I need someone who really need how to run this business. I have funders, but need venture partners who is experienced and want to do somehting big. If anyone interested to work out the boat designed of this new boat, please let me know , I can help. You could probably win our investor's interested. Hope my reply answer you questions. regards, cwwinson ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project Hi cwwinson having had a second look at it, I really do not see what the new idea would be: the water trapped in the pocket under your wings or whatever we shall call them would act as floatation that would indeed give a stable hull - just like a trimaran which, being wider, would offer much better stability, no? With the major difference that if you roll your machine, at a certain point your air-traps will be open to the above and all your bouyancy will suddenly disappear and your inverted wings would fill with lotsa water... So what really is the advantage? also, seeing just the section, I can't really see why the air would remain trapped there unless the pockets are closed forward and aft in which case I have trouble imagining the hullshape. Otherwise, I always like to discuss and further any promising new idea, and somewhere in there might really be an interesting idea. But if you look for investment you sure have come to the wrong place with your wonderful invention ;-) gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8396|8384|2005-07-27 11:43:12|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|No worry collin, Everything can be adjusted. One more advantage it have is it will not easily tumble as what we used today. The play that sampan tumble and the rowler drop into the water can be history. Why? Let me tell you. It is very interesting to tell why sampan roll. You never seen a sampan roll with head or tail down into the water. Tell me why? It always roll along the head -tail axis. With voofly, you guess..... One of the picture in the website explain it clearly. Two counter force , one pressing and the other pulling will let it not easy to roll along head-tail axis. That is why. With voofly, it can be easier to climb on board fromo water. It is always difficult to climb from water to a boat especially sampan. As for CG, no worry, the air cavity will not be such big to overturn the whole boat. To make it unsinkable, there is one way, to make the air cavity big enough or equal the volumn of the boat's body size. By doing so, even the body crack or broken, the air cavity can sustain and will keep floating. If the cavity are all broken, then I will pray for help! :) I like more rejection from you all, so that I can find any thing that I have not yet consider. How big is this business? If you are already very rich to play and make yacht, this can be google or yahoo in ship building business. So helping me, means you can be one of them. regards, cwwinson ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project Hello cwwinson I'd already sent you an email before I checked-in at this group, so to keep everybody 'in the loop', you commented to me: " Yes you are right, there is 3X wetted areas that drag. But do you ever think about the Buoyancy where air dispaced? The boat actually has less weight in water." To which I reply: "A ship that weighs 1,000 tons will displace 1,000 tons of water - unfortunately there's nothing you can do about this. Any trapped air in a structure such as you propose will be compressed until 1,000 tons of water is displaced. You need to consider the system as a whole. But if, somehow, you were able to cause a ship to weigh significantly less, then the centre of gravity of the vessel would be raised above it's centre of buoyancy and the ship would then become unstable, and would risk turning over and sinking. A ship needs to have it's centre of gravity low down in the water. This is especially true of container ships whose cargo tends to be located at a higher level than (say) bulk oil. Indeed, empty ships take on salt-water ballast in order to ensure that they remain low in the water. Windage is also a serious issue. I admire your ingenious thinking, but suggest it needs to be tempered with a sound understanding of basic principles. Making a working model of 'revolutionary' concepts usually helps to clarify the issues involved." But - what concerns me more than the flawed thinking involved here, is your invitation for others to invest their money in your dubious business ideas, of which you have many - and all of which are unproven and, at the risk of being thought unkind, appear rather fanciful. However, I'm not an Internet policeman so will say no more on this. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > HI,Colin > > Thanks reading and visiting my website. > > I am not surprise you will have this reaction. > > Over the years, new ideas pump up my head. > > As an inventor, every new idea is a treasure. > > And each idea indicate an opportunities in future when it come true. > > I don't think it is wise to give detail in public, right? Why? I guess you all know why. > > Every venture have difficulties, and only those who over come it can make it happen. > > And I don't think myself or anybody can do all these ideas, that is why I am offering the opportunities for partners who are willing to contribute. No venture can be successfully done in nowaday's business. > > By seeking partners here, I hope those with guts and vision can become miracle of tomorrow. > > It is too early to comment while venture has not come to the end. > > Discussion is opened and questions are welcome too. > > For me, I am optimistic even you may think it cannot be working. I am too please and thanks if you can proof it not working too! > > For my other ideas, you can forget it if it is not your interests. > > However, Voofly is what I am proposing to seek relevant partners here. > > Thanks > and regards, > cwwinson > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:59 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project > > > Check out his other ideas (!): > > capturing lightning in Florida > > converting explosives into electricity > > constructing a building, the architecture of which alone > will turn seawater into fresh water (details not given) > > novel marine propulsion system using magnetic fields > (details not given) > > Using a plastic bandage to recover oil from oil spills > so that the oil can be re-sold by the salvor to make a > fortune (like - bugger the environmental issues ...) > > A global temperature lowering system (yeah, right ...) > > This guy is a genius and has "a wonderful brain". > I know this 'cause he says this on his website - and he > should know ;-) Seems he's also very modest. > > And - he's offering YOU a chance to get in on the action: > quote: "Only offers for stock shares at least 30% plus > lump sum of cash deposit will be considered." > > Quick - where's my cheque book ..... ? > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Interesting idea, but what's the business deal? Selling wetted area > > by the acre? ;-) > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" > > wrote: > > > Hi pal, > > > > > > I am inventor from hong kong. > > > > > > A Newly patent pending project seek boat builder partner in > > prototyping and development. > > > > > > An experienced Director in ship building industry is needed in > > running our business. If you interested, please let me know and > > submit your Resume to vooflyventure-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Also any investor, angels for start up or VC who intereted in > > investing start up on new concept may join too. > > > > > > > > > vooflyventure-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > to join please send email to above email address with your > company > > profile or investor informations. > > > > > > Voofly website > > > http://voofly.winno.biz > > > > > > regards, > > > cwwinson, inventor of voofly > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada > Yacht > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8397|8384|2005-07-27 12:55:38|Gerd|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|> 1. currently, the boat body have only one layer. If it is broken, then the boat sink accordingly. this is a non-issue. That's what proper scantling, watertight bulkheads or other means of permanent or emergency flotation is for if deemed necessary. quite a lot of monohulls and most of the multihulls are unsincable even if holed. No need to build a bulky open chamber around it that in any case does not hold the water out - and the air in - if rolled. > 2. Fast, it is lighter in water when air is kept in the chamber. Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. a hull, any hull that is not dynamically lifted (like a planing speedboat) will always displace it's weight in water, like any other floating body. the air in your chamber does NOT provide any bouyant force as it does NOT displace any water. A boat is not "light" or heavy "in water"... a boat has a weight, and will sink in until the bouyant upward force balances with the downward force of gravity. This is reached when the displaced water has the same weight as the floating object. School physics, remember? ;-) (mind you, In your case and unlike you show on your drawing, because the air inside your chambers would refuse to be compressed once th3 border of your chamber is in teh water, you would actually have a lower level inside the chamber than on the outside, meaning, yes, the water displaced by the uncompressable air would also displace water, but only for the difference between the inside and the outside level, and that is not permanent floatation as the chamaber would fill up when the hull is rolled) The only thing that changes is that your hull is considerably heavier than what you call a "current" one due to the added weight of your chanbers material ... What this apron around the hull does to dynamics, resistance, wetted area etc I don't even dare to imagine. > 3. comfortable, the currently used one will have free falling when it is raised to leave the water surface. Speedboat players know it clear. Well, all hulls in displacement mode stick to the water well enough, thank you ;-) as for sucking a speedboat back down after having spent a fortune on engine power to get in planing in the first place, you won't find many friends for that, I guess... anyway, no way to get a hull like that on the plane. I think you really need to get your basic understanding of hydrostatics and -dynamics sorted out. Gerd| 8398|8384|2005-07-27 15:11:08|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Gerd Thanks for your reply, 1. The point is it is harder to sink! Even if the hull is not able to support floating, the outer shell provides next support. If you think it is bulky but navy like it. Why? guess..... 2. OK, try pushing an inverted cup into full tank of water in bath tank. What is the force upward? but there is. If I am wrong, tell me where can I find a school that teach nothing about this force? If the hull is shorter than the base border of the outer shell, the water touch no hull. I cannot imagine how fast it can be! 3. OK , speedboat is an example to show there is free falling frequently when driving fast. I am not saying speedboat needed it but those who sail other boat want it. At least it ease people's sea sick. In case of oil tank, it is too long and it tends to break itself into half just because the front part is lifted and let free falling but the tail stay on water. I learned this from TV programme. Thanks teaching me more, cwwinson ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 12:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project > 1. currently, the boat body have only one layer. If it is broken, then the boat sink accordingly. this is a non-issue. That's what proper scantling, watertight bulkheads or other means of permanent or emergency flotation is for if deemed necessary. quite a lot of monohulls and most of the multihulls are unsincable even if holed. No need to build a bulky open chamber around it that in any case does not hold the water out - and the air in - if rolled. > 2. Fast, it is lighter in water when air is kept in the chamber. Sorry, but that is complete bullshit. a hull, any hull that is not dynamically lifted (like a planing speedboat) will always displace it's weight in water, like any other floating body. the air in your chamber does NOT provide any bouyant force as it does NOT displace any water. A boat is not "light" or heavy "in water"... a boat has a weight, and will sink in until the bouyant upward force balances with the downward force of gravity. This is reached when the displaced water has the same weight as the floating object. School physics, remember? ;-) (mind you, In your case and unlike you show on your drawing, because the air inside your chambers would refuse to be compressed once th3 border of your chamber is in teh water, you would actually have a lower level inside the chamber than on the outside, meaning, yes, the water displaced by the uncompressable air would also displace water, but only for the difference between the inside and the outside level, and that is not permanent floatation as the chamaber would fill up when the hull is rolled) The only thing that changes is that your hull is considerably heavier than what you call a "current" one due to the added weight of your chanbers material ... What this apron around the hull does to dynamics, resistance, wetted area etc I don't even dare to imagine. > 3. comfortable, the currently used one will have free falling when it is raised to leave the water surface. Speedboat players know it clear. Well, all hulls in displacement mode stick to the water well enough, thank you ;-) as for sucking a speedboat back down after having spent a fortune on engine power to get in planing in the first place, you won't find many friends for that, I guess... anyway, no way to get a hull like that on the plane. I think you really need to get your basic understanding of hydrostatics and -dynamics sorted out. Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8399|8384|2005-07-27 15:36:53|Gerd|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|> 2. OK, try pushing an inverted cup into full tank of water in bath tank. What is the force upward? but there is. that's no miracle force, winson... the upward force equals the weight of the water that WOULD have been there where you push your cup in... you hand will "float", and it's weight/push equals the weight of the displaced water. it does not matter that your cup is open at the bottom - if the bottom would be closed and you try to push it in the exact same thing would happen (the minimal compression of the air in your cup we can disregard for the moment) Increasing your pressure will simply add load to your cup-boat. when you push too much, "overload" your cup-hull, then your boat will sink, even if no water enters the cup, because the downward push will exceed the upward bouyancy force - the cup, completely immersed has reached maximum displacement and adding weight (pushing) will sink it..| 8400|8400|2005-07-27 22:09:19|khooper_fboats|More Lead FS (Guam!)|Eleven lots of lead bars, 2000 to 4000 lbs each, sealed bid auction coourtesy of Uncle Sam. The lead is at a military base on Guam. Crazy, huh? http://www.govliquidation.com/list/c7452/lna/1.html Now here's the thing: Uncle Sam also delivers the mail on Guam, and the Postal Service has this program called "Priority Mail Flat Rate" where they will ship a box up to 70 lbs for $7.70 flat rate. Just suppose you could pick up 5000 lbs lead for 10c per pound USD, that's $500 for the lead and about $550 to mail it to yourself. You'd need to have somebody on Guam to cut the stuff up and package it in 70 lb chunks of course. Hopefully the USPS is smart enough not to put all those Priority Mail boxes in one plane, it might not get too far. Just an idea. --Hoop| 8401|8401|2005-07-27 23:02:12|Marc de Piolenc|"New" engine|"jim_both" wrote: It will be ineresting to follow the development phase of this prototype engine at: http://www.regtech.com/18.html Ah, yes - the Rand-cam engine. This project has been hanging fire for a long time. Have they at least published the results of the alleged US government tests? If not, I think we can safely say that this one will go the way of all the other attempts to build an internal combustion engine based on the vane pump. I did have some hope for this one after I visited a doctor in La Jolla who was promoting this engine in the mid-nineties - it does solve one of the problems of vane-pump-based engines - but much time has passed since then, so they must have met a serious snag. One obvious problem with very compact engines is thermal loading - cooling becomes very challenging. It took many years to solve the problems of uneven expansion of the chamber and rotor in the Wankel rotary; my guess is that the Rand-Cam is at least an order of magnitude more difficult. Plan to use a conventional engine in your boat! Best, Marc de Piolenc ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs| 8402|8400|2005-07-27 23:19:08|khooper_fboats|More Lead FS (Guam!)|Eleven lots of lead bars, 2000 to 4000 lbs each, sealed bid auction coourtesy of Uncle Sam. The lead is at a military base on Guam. Crazy, huh? http://www.govliquidation.com/list/c7452/lna/1.html Now here's the thing: Uncle Sam also delivers the mail on Guam, and the Postal Service has this program called "Priority Mail Flat Rate" where they will ship a box up to 70 lbs for $7.70 flat rate. Just suppose you could pick up 5000 lbs lead for 10c per pound USD, that's $500 for the lead and about $550 to mail it to yourself. You'd need to have somebody on Guam to cut the stuff up and package it in 70 lb chunks of course. Hopefully the USPS is smart enough not to put all those Priority Mail boxes in one plane, it might not get too far. Just an idea. --Hoop| 8403|8384|2005-07-28 06:21:30|sae140|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|"Fast, it is lighter in water when air is kept in the chamber." So - storing air in steel chambers will make the craft lighter ? So - if we had *really big* chambers with *lots* of air, we'd have ourselves a steel airship ? Get yourself an empty steel oil drum, or even an empty glass bottle. These are 100% full of air - it just doesn't get any better - and notice that when floating, these items will *still* displace an amount of water equal to their weight in air. Rumour has it that an old Greek guy discovered this while taking a bath, and became the world's first streaker. "To make it unsinkable, there is one way, to make the air cavity big enough or equal the volumn of the boat's body size." Ok - this might help you understand the principle. There *are* vessels which have an air cavity the same as the boat - they are called submarines. If you look at photographs of submarines you will see that they *always* ride very low in the water when at the surface, and that is when their ballast tanks are empty and quite often with their hulls unloaded of stores, fuel and personnel. But they simply cannot float any higher - not even if you filled the hull itself and the ballast tanks with as much compressed air as you like. I remember reading about a daring wartime incident when one holed submarine was roped to another in an attempt to save it from sinking (this is *exactly* the same physics as you are proposing), but it had to be cut free as it threatened to sink them both. There simply wasn't enough available buoyancy in the support craft to support the damaged craft and itself. The holed submarine sank. You say you are already an inventor: a genius with a brilliant mind. Can you reveal to this group any one of your inventions which have been proven and *shown to work in practice*, and which can be seen within the public domain ? Colin| 8404|8401|2005-07-28 06:33:36|sae140|Re: "New" engine|> I did have some hope for this one after I visited a > doctor in La Jolla who was promoting this engine in > the mid-nineties - it does solve one of the problems > of vane-pump-based engines - but much time has passed > since then, so they must have met a serious snag. I don't understand how serious power is generated using the vane pump principle. On the power stroke of a piston engine, the piston is driven down in a linear direction. But with the vane pump, there is an inclined plane involved. Vector forces and all that .... I can see how vanes can easily be used to compress gas or liquids - but in reverse ? Can anyone explain (in simple terms) .... ? Colin| 8405|8401|2005-07-28 06:43:25|sae140|Re: "New" engine|Ignore last post. brain fart.| 8406|8384|2005-07-28 14:16:28|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Thanks Collin, 1. Oh, my points, two upward force is better than one, isn't it? 2. Thanks pointing out at least it float when it is of the same size of the body. So how about big enough? Don't forget there is an open end at the bottom of the tank. and less steel used. Can it be lighter? 3. Hey, this idea is genius, isn't it? We are seeking something like this for decades. And what we get up to now? Knowing more about my idea and invention, you can visit my website http://ideasbycwwinson.winno.biz ,Sorry unprotected ideas will not post. However, I am presenting the idea implicitly. I am expressing the value not the idea. Rome Was Not Built In One Day. I am seeking professional help from boat builders, Don't think inventor always do all the things. When resources not allow, inventor need to open opportunities to other, else every inventor will be as rich as Bill Gate. regard, cwwinson ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project "Fast, it is lighter in water when air is kept in the chamber." So - storing air in steel chambers will make the craft lighter ? So - if we had *really big* chambers with *lots* of air, we'd have ourselves a steel airship ? Get yourself an empty steel oil drum, or even an empty glass bottle. These are 100% full of air - it just doesn't get any better - and notice that when floating, these items will *still* displace an amount of water equal to their weight in air. Rumour has it that an old Greek guy discovered this while taking a bath, and became the world's first streaker. "To make it unsinkable, there is one way, to make the air cavity big enough or equal the volumn of the boat's body size." Ok - this might help you understand the principle. There *are* vessels which have an air cavity the same as the boat - they are called submarines. If you look at photographs of submarines you will see that they *always* ride very low in the water when at the surface, and that is when their ballast tanks are empty and quite often with their hulls unloaded of stores, fuel and personnel. But they simply cannot float any higher - not even if you filled the hull itself and the ballast tanks with as much compressed air as you like. I remember reading about a daring wartime incident when one holed submarine was roped to another in an attempt to save it from sinking (this is *exactly* the same physics as you are proposing), but it had to be cut free as it threatened to sink them both. There simply wasn't enough available buoyancy in the support craft to support the damaged craft and itself. The holed submarine sank. You say you are already an inventor: a genius with a brilliant mind. Can you reveal to this group any one of your inventions which have been proven and *shown to work in practice*, and which can be seen within the public domain ? Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8407|8384|2005-07-28 14:24:12|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Thanks analysis it. What I am saying is there are two force rather than one in case of currently used one, right? ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project > 2. OK, try pushing an inverted cup into full tank of water in bath tank. What is the force upward? but there is. that's no miracle force, winson... the upward force equals the weight of the water that WOULD have been there where you push your cup in... you hand will "float", and it's weight/push equals the weight of the displaced water. it does not matter that your cup is open at the bottom - if the bottom would be closed and you try to push it in the exact same thing would happen (the minimal compression of the air in your cup we can disregard for the moment) Increasing your pressure will simply add load to your cup-boat. when you push too much, "overload" your cup-hull, then your boat will sink, even if no water enters the cup, because the downward push will exceed the upward bouyancy force - the cup, completely immersed has reached maximum displacement and adding weight (pushing) will sink it.. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8408|8384|2005-07-28 17:53:49|Gerd|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > Thanks analysis it. > > What I am saying is there are two force rather than one in case of currently used one, right? NO. You really need to start learning at the beginning: hydrostatics and hydrodynamics for displacement hulls. Until then, there is no use really dicussing this as we are not using the same words. ;-) Gerd| 8409|8384|2005-07-28 18:08:55|Gerd|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > 3. Hey, this idea is genius, isn't it? We are seeking something like this for decades. And what we get up to now? > At least nobody can accuse you of a lack of self-esteem ;-) Look, and no hard feelings, but why don't you do what we all do here, before you ask people for work, energy and money: make a design, do your scantling and construction plan, do your proper calculations and then go and build the damn thing first yourself?? ;-) That would be in the spirit of the true inventor...!! If you get that far, try to move it through the water next to any other displacement hull of the same waterline length and you will probably find that the energy required to push it forward will be completely out of proportion. But really, build it, and keep us up to date, ok? Ciao Gerd| 8410|8410|2005-07-28 21:16:21|seeratlas|32 foot Etek powered boat- great article|http://www.boatbuilder.com.au/pdf/pdfs/nomad.pdf seer| 8411|8410|2005-07-28 21:36:46|Gary H. Lucas|Re: 32 foot Etek powered boat- great article|I was at Cabella's huge store in Dundee Michigan two weeks ago. I took a look at the large display of electric trolling motors they have. I think you'd be FAR better off building your electric boat around a bank of off the shelf large trolling motors. When it comes to cheap nothing beats a product produced in huge volume, like these things are. You can buy a very powerful trolling motor complete for $350. They are available with 60" shafts so they could extend well below the transom in clean water. Put one, two, three on the stern, and one of the retractable bow mount, remote steering ones on the bow. Use the bow motor with the stern motors for top speed. Steer your boat into the tightest dock space with ease using the bow motor as a bow thruster and turning the stern motor. Carry a spare motor or two in a locker. Or don't, because multiple trolling motors already provide redundant backup. You'll be out sailing before you could finish the engineering on your inboard setup. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 32 foot Etek powered boat- great article > http://www.boatbuilder.com.au/pdf/pdfs/nomad.pdf > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8412|8412|2005-07-29 07:30:05|mickeyolaf|Paint system for aluminum hulls|Brent and others, any recommeded brand of paint system for aluminum that stays on and has a good duration? LPU seems awefully expensive and dangerous fume wise to apply. I am leaning to a two part epoxy but am told it will not stand up in the sun. I also need to do a bit of filling/fairing so need a paint which will have a primer which works with epoxy fillers. I don't want to leave it bright finished.| 8413|8410|2005-07-29 10:35:38|seeratlas|Re: 32 foot Etek powered boat- great article|Gary, My research indicates that the efficiency of the trolling motors is pretty lousy comparatively speaking. The motors themselves cost about the same as the etek's, i.e. I can eteks for 325.00 US. eteks are 8hp each, the trolling jobs are FAR less, and due to the small fast spinning props, far less efficient, and remember, I have to have an installation strong enough and powerful enough to go 'upriver' in like say, the Rhine. Trolling's might work well on a 20' or so, but 43ft and 29k seems a bit much to task them with. Lastly, the engineering seems to be pretty simple. The shaft and prop are same old same old, thrust bearings are no problem, the Eteks are set up to bolt to a flat plate as can be seen in the photo's of the article I just posted, so setting 3 at 120 degrees apart around a central shaft is simple enough. The controllers are off the shelf and programable by PC for 'custom' requirements, the chargers are expensive but production items, batteries are again, industrial/commercial and just a matter of deciding where to mount, and I have a whole host of diesel genset/welders to choose from, and can pick between one big one or two small ones setup to come online sequentially. I can even use one or two more eteks belted off a bare diesel gen motor run as dc generators which makes for a world of redundancy. and a pretty substantial weight savings. The only remaining questions I have revolve around running the current from the gensets directly thru the battery banks to drive the motors at high power settings. We're talking like 450-500 amps here at 48v. I've made some inquiries to some Battery experts to find out. closer and closer :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > I was at Cabella's huge store in Dundee Michigan two weeks ago. I took a > look at the large display of electric trolling motors they have. I think > you'd be FAR better off building your electric boat around a bank of off the > shelf large trolling motors. When it comes to cheap nothing beats a product > produced in huge volume, like these things are. You can buy a very powerful > trolling motor complete for $350. They are available with 60" shafts so > they could extend well below the transom in clean water. Put one, two, > three on the stern, and one of the retractable bow mount, remote steering > ones on the bow. Use the bow motor with the stern motors for top speed. > Steer your boat into the tightest dock space with ease using the bow motor > as a bow thruster and turning the stern motor. Carry a spare motor or two > in a locker. Or don't, because multiple trolling motors already provide > redundant backup. You'll be out sailing before you could finish the > engineering on your inboard setup. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:16 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] 32 foot Etek powered boat- great article > > > > http://www.boatbuilder.com.au/pdf/pdfs/nomad.pdf > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8414|8414|2005-07-29 11:46:11|wdgptcne|Group Information|Interest rates have never been lower. Save more money on your home loan now. Save money and Refinance your home loan now. . http://qiwuz.com/i/LzUvaW5kZXgvd2F6ZWUvOGIyODl3NGNxZGty take 30 seconds and fill out this free form to save money| 8415|8412|2005-07-29 14:25:27|brentswain38|Re: Paint system for aluminum hulls|Bruce Cope who builds Cope aluminium boats , and did a lot of work on aluminium america's cup boats,once told me that the only sure fire way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it lightly. He said that the etch primer he used on his own boat was vinyl and thus much softer than the epoxy he put over it.This made the epoxy easy to chip. Epoxy will break down and chalk in sunlight and is thus not the best for a finish coat. My aluminium dinghy had pitts corroding right thru the 1/8th inch plate in 20 years. I just sandblasted it and coated it wit a cold galvanizing spray, something that I should have done 20 years ago. Other than that I don't know much about what kind of paints are available for aluminium, but I'm sure cheaper polyurethanes are available. They sometimes come up in military surplus stores. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > Brent and others, any recommeded brand of paint system for aluminum > that stays on and has a good duration? LPU seems awefully expensive > and dangerous fume wise to apply. I am leaning to a two part epoxy but > am told it will not stand up in the sun. I also need to do a bit of > filling/fairing so need a paint which will have a primer which works > with epoxy fillers. I don't want to leave it bright finished. | 8416|8412|2005-07-29 17:00:51|Bill Jaine|Re: Paint system for aluminum hulls|For my money I would use a flat or at the worst a semi-gloss paint��so it doesn�t show your reflection�.it also won�t show all the imperfections. Also I painted our (fiberglass) boat and aluminum mast with Rustoleum. 8 years on the mast and 3 years on the hull and decks I�m still happy. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: 29-Jul-05 7:30 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Paint system for aluminum hulls Brent and others, any recommeded brand of paint system for aluminum that stays on and has a good duration? LPU seems awefully expensive and dangerous fume wise to apply. I am leaning to a two part epoxy but am told it will not stand up in the sun. I also need to do a bit of filling/fairing so need a paint which will have a primer which works with epoxy fillers. I don't want to leave it bright finished. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8418|8384|2005-07-30 09:32:05|winnobizi|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|To prove it is an easy task. It is nothing more than a basin invertly place on water surface in bath tank. You will find it is difficult to pull it out from water, and harder to sink it! It is a child's play that everybody can try at home when bathing like ARCHIMEDE discovery of his theory. Just cannot believe there is someone trying to reject it with college knowledge, disappointing. I hope I am not talking to the best in the industry else I see no future or breakthrough in ship building's industry. What I am seeking is a wiser guy who can distinguish between knowledge and wisdom. May be I am going wrong place. cw ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:08 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > 3. Hey, this idea is genius, isn't it? We are seeking something like this for decades. And what we get up to now? > At least nobody can accuse you of a lack of self-esteem ;-) Look, and no hard feelings, but why don't you do what we all do here, before you ask people for work, energy and money: make a design, do your scantling and construction plan, do your proper calculations and then go and build the damn thing first yourself?? ;-) That would be in the spirit of the true inventor...!! If you get that far, try to move it through the water next to any other displacement hull of the same waterline length and you will probably find that the energy required to push it forward will be completely out of proportion. But really, build it, and keep us up to date, ok? Ciao Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8419|8384|2005-07-30 10:22:17|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|Yep, you're right. You don't want any of that college knowledge. You are going to the wrong place. Chris winnobizi wrote: > To prove it is an easy task. > > It is nothing more than a basin invertly place on water surface in bath tank. > > You will find it is difficult to pull it out from water, and harder to sink it! > > It is a child's play that everybody can try at home when bathing like ARCHIMEDE discovery of his theory. > > Just cannot believe there is someone trying to reject it with college knowledge, disappointing. > > I hope I am not talking to the best in the industry else I see no future or breakthrough in ship building's industry. > > What I am seeking is a wiser guy who can distinguish between knowledge and wisdom. > > May be I am going wrong place. > > cw > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerd > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:08 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" > wrote: > > 3. Hey, this idea is genius, isn't it? We are seeking something > like this for decades. And what we get up to now? > > > > At least nobody can accuse you of a lack of self-esteem ;-) > > Look, and no hard feelings, but why don't you do what we all do > here, before you ask people for work, energy and money: > > make a design, do your scantling and construction plan, do your > proper calculations and then go and build the damn thing first > yourself?? ;-) That would be in the spirit of the true inventor...!! > > If you get that far, try to move it through the water next to any > other displacement hull of the same waterline length and you will > probably find that the energy required to push it forward will be > completely out of proportion. > > But really, build it, and keep us up to date, ok? > > Ciao > Gerd > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada > Yacht > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8420|8384|2005-07-31 12:49:00|woodcraftssuch|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" wrote: > To prove it is an easy task. > > It is nothing more than a basin invertly place on water surface in bath tank. > > You will find it is difficult to pull it out from water, and harder to sink it! > > It is a child's play that everybody can try at home when bathing like ARCHIMEDE discovery of his theory. > > Just cannot believe there is someone trying to reject it with college knowledge, disappointing. > > I hope I am not talking to the best in the industry else I see no future or breakthrough in ship building's industry. > > What I am seeking is a wiser guy who can distinguish between knowledge and wisdom. > > May be I am going wrong place. > > cw Mustafa, Give it up. Sam| 8421|8384|2005-07-31 19:40:55|Wesley Cox|Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented project|I've been silent so far, but these are amazing statements. I personally am only going to humor this once. How about a simpler test? Use a small bottle with a sealing cap -- here we have 1/2 litre and 2 litre bottles. Close it well, empty. Submerge it in water. If this "theory" were correct, would it not be impossible to completely submerge the bottle no matter how much force were applied? Or if the magic bullet is an open bottom, perform the same test without the cap and with the bottle inverted. If it were "impossible" to sink, would that not mean the small bottle should support my entire 230 pounds without sinking? My wife is tolerant but not enthusiastic about my boat design and someday boat building obsession. We're realizing our dream spontaneously, due to finding the perfect house, and moving to just south of Door County, Wisconsin soon, so my building endeavors will have to wait a bit longer, despite acquiring materials (damn!) just before making the decision to jump on moving. I briefly described this thread to her, including superlatives. The humor of it seemed to lessen the glossy eyed effect I normally see when talking boats (she does like using boats very much, at least). She suggested winnobizi is some Billy Bob, complete with ample Eng. writing skills, L-his-AO over the responses people have given. Food for thought. winnobizi wrote: > To prove it is an easy task. > > It is nothing more than a basin invertly place on water surface in > bath tank. > > You will find it is difficult to pull it out from water, and harder to > sink it! > > It is a child's play that everybody can try at home when bathing like > ARCHIMEDE discovery of his theory. > > Just cannot believe there is someone trying to reject it with college > knowledge, disappointing. > > I hope I am not talking to the best in the industry else I see no > future or breakthrough in ship building's industry. > > What I am seeking is a wiser guy who can distinguish between knowledge > and wisdom. > > May be I am going wrong place. > > cw > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerd > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:08 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: seeking boat builder partner on patented > project > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "winnobizi" > wrote: > > 3. Hey, this idea is genius, isn't it? We are seeking something > like this for decades. And what we get up to now? > > > > At least nobody can accuse you of a lack of self-esteem ;-) > > Look, and no hard feelings, but why don't you do what we all do > here, before you ask people for work, energy and money: > > make a design, do your scantling and construction plan, do your > proper calculations and then go and build the damn thing first > yourself?? ;-) That would be in the spirit of the true inventor...!! > > If you get that far, try to move it through the water next to any > other displacement hull of the same waterline length and you will > probably find that the energy required to push it forward will be > completely out of proportion. > > But really, build it, and keep us up to date, ok? > > Ciao > Gerd > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British > columbia canada > Yacht > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8422|8422|2005-07-31 19:50:58|seeratlas|More Electric Hybrid drive- 2 interesting motors|WEll, the more I look the more I find. I've been engaged an a very interesting discussion in the Electricboats group and while continuing my research came up with two additional motors which are interesting. The first is apparently the Lynch L200 licensed for production in India at slightly different performance specs, I'll let you know when I find out about availablily and cost.. http://www.agnimotors.com/ these motors outperform the Etek's with more hp, torque and higher voltage ratings. :) The second is the german made Perm132 AC and DC motors, some of which are watercooled ! http://www.perm-motor.de/index_e.html There has been some discussion that the AC motors might offer some advantages but I'm still researching this. In any event, the Perm DC motor offers substantially more power than Etek and tho more expensive, is still substantially less than the L200's directly from LEMCO and all are light years cheaper than the commercial packages offered by Solomon Technologies and Fisher Panda. One thing that is becoming increasingly clear tho, is that an 8 to 12 hp DC motor is fully capable of driving a 35/36 foot displacement boat under most conditions for a reasonable length of time using std. and relatively inexpensive lead acid batteries, just takes a bunch of em :) heheh. seer| 8423|8412|2005-08-01 12:07:30|denis buggy|Re: Paint system for aluminum hulls|dear brent alu is painted by almost anything non metallic as long as the crucial etch primer is used firstly to allow paint to stick , there are various types however the best have an acid base to allow bite to the primer . do not sand . all older buses were clad with alu sheet and were always fitted with a sheet of tar paper on the inside to keep the metal frames underneath from turning into batteries when dampness came . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Paint system for aluminum hulls Bruce Cope who builds Cope aluminium boats , and did a lot of work on aluminium america's cup boats,once told me that the only sure fire way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it lightly. He said that the etch primer he used on his own boat was vinyl and thus much softer than the epoxy he put over it.This made the epoxy easy to chip. Epoxy will break down and chalk in sunlight and is thus not the best for a finish coat. My aluminium dinghy had pitts corroding right thru the 1/8th inch plate in 20 years. I just sandblasted it and coated it wit a cold galvanizing spray, something that I should have done 20 years ago. Other than that I don't know much about what kind of paints are available for aluminium, but I'm sure cheaper polyurethanes are available. They sometimes come up in military surplus stores. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > Brent and others, any recommeded brand of paint system for aluminum > that stays on and has a good duration? LPU seems awefully expensive > and dangerous fume wise to apply. I am leaning to a two part epoxy but > am told it will not stand up in the sun. I also need to do a bit of > filling/fairing so need a paint which will have a primer which works > with epoxy fillers. I don't want to leave it bright finished. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8424|8422|2005-08-02 05:22:03|sae140|Re: More Electric Hybrid drive - Sinclair's C5 ?|Hi Seer Electric drive isn't really my thing, so I can't get over-excited about it - but for some reason your post got me thinking about Clive Sinclair's C5 car - well - more of a scooter really ... Car was crap, but the motor was good. Although most people know the motor as coming from a washing machine, the same firm (Polymotor of Italy) also makes motors for torpedoes ! http://www.solarnavigator.net/ http://www.solarnavigator.net/inventors/sir_clive_sinclair.htm http://www.speedace.info/electric_cars.htm Good luck with your research Colin| 8425|8422|2005-08-02 11:32:44|seeratlas|Re: More Electric Hybrid drive & Prop Question for Brent & others|Remember Colin, I'm not talking about pure electric drive but a hybrid so I'll still have a diesel, at least for generating lOL :) Hey Brent, Have you ever turned your creative mind towards a home made variable pitch prop system? I wonder if there is a simple way to do something with concentric pipe shafts since my drive setup looks like its going to be belt drive off a short and therefore stiff shaft run into a thrust bearing plate. One of the 'issues' with electric drive is that you have so much torque available at pretty much the whole rpm range, you want to swing a big highpitched multiblade prop, however, this represents hella drag when trying to purely sail...I had a Martek on the Falcon for a few years which was a self aligning and reversing prop, but I wasn't impressed with the 'bang for buck' and there was a lot of 'bang' when it reversed the blades. The service on the complicated internals didn't impress me much either. Maybe some kind of simple folder like you mentioned before, but again, a big two blade folder is going to require a helluva deep aperature for sufficient clearance when folded isn't it? And having never used one, aren't there some substantial 'reversing' issues? Any help or ideas from the group? as always thanks in advance. Just to keep everyone up to date, I've gotten a bunch of reports on the pricing, reliability, and installed performance of the variously available motors and more and more I'm convinced the hybrid belt drive electric is the way I'm going to go. About the only thing remaining is to nail down the details on going the AC motor side of the coin and see if that is competitive price and utility wise. In that regard, has anyone come across any design issues on running lots of AC vs. DC voltage around a metal boat in fresh and saltwater? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Seer > > Electric drive isn't really my thing, so I can't get > over-excited about it - but for some reason your post > got me thinking about Clive Sinclair's C5 car - well > - more of a scooter really ... > Car was crap, but the motor was good. Although most > people know the motor as coming from a washing machine, > the same firm (Polymotor of Italy) also makes motors > for torpedoes ! > > http://www.solarnavigator.net/ > http://www.solarnavigator.net/inventors/sir_clive_sinclair.htm > http://www.speedace.info/electric_cars.htm > > Good luck with your research > > Colin | 8426|8426|2005-08-02 12:25:29|seeratlas|Multifuel stove/ heater.|Didn't Brent and/or others post something about setting up a diesel drip burner in his homemade stainless multifuel stove/cabin heater design that might also use other available 'oils'? Dunno about the epa guys, but wouldn't such a system also be able to utilize used engine and/or bio oils as fuel? I'm thinking of building into my hull a substantial fresh engine oil supply tank, and wondering why I shouldn't add a corresponding 'used' engine oil tank which I can then filter and run thru a multi fuel (solid fuel pellets, coal, charcoal, wood, and diesel/oil drip) stove/cabin heater for cooler nights in colder climes. trying to wind this design up :) seer| 8428|8422|2005-08-02 13:24:02|put_to_sea|Re: More Electric Hybrid drive & Prop Question for Brent & others|> One of the 'issues' with electric drive is that you have so much > torque available at pretty much the whole rpm range, you want to swing > a big highpitched multiblade prop, however, this represents hella drag > when trying to purely sail... If I were to go electric, I think I would keep the simplicity of a fixed prop and add the minimum power to the prop needed to eliminate the drag and turbulance caused by the prop. I would not expect it would require much power to either reduce or eliminate the prop drag although I am not sure how to calculate the power required. Amos| 8429|8422|2005-08-02 14:20:15|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: More Electric Hybrid drive & Prop Question for Brent & others|Here's you a reference to an electric motor that might bear research (link to the company at the bottom of the article): http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050801/cgm023.html?.v=17 Bruce| 8430|8422|2005-08-02 15:36:46|Ray|Re: More Electric Hybrid drive & Prop Question for Brent & others|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > If I were to go electric, I think I would keep the simplicity of a > fixed prop and add the minimum power to the prop needed to eliminate > the drag and turbulance caused by the prop. I would not expect it > would require much power to either reduce or eliminate the prop > drag although I am not sure how to calculate the power required. > > Amos Jumping in the middle here, but, couldn't something like this be resolved w/a relatively simple overrunning clutch inline on the shaft? Ray Kimbro - just another dreamer w/no time or money| 8431|8431|2005-08-02 17:32:59|johnh94927|Doing Origami|So how does one go about doing the origami design: trace the pieces to be cut out that will result in a hull of a given shape? I only had the chance to breeze through a friend's copy of swain's book, and didn't see much about the design part of the process. I know how to weld, no problem, but i dont want to go cutting pieces out at random in the hopes that the end result will float. Mainly, just for the sake of curiousity, Id like to know how the cut-and-fold bit is determined.| 8432|8426|2005-08-02 17:36:14|kendall|Re: Multifuel stove/ heater.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Didn't Brent and/or others post something about setting up a diesel > drip burner in his homemade stainless multifuel stove/cabin heater > design that might also use other available 'oils'? > > Dunno about the epa guys, but wouldn't such a system also be able to > utilize used engine and/or bio oils as fuel? I'm thinking of building > into my hull a substantial fresh engine oil supply tank, and wondering > why I shouldn't add a corresponding 'used' engine oil tank which I can > then filter and run thru a multi fuel (solid fuel pellets, coal, > charcoal, wood, and diesel/oil drip) stove/cabin heater for cooler > nights in colder climes. > > trying to wind this design up :) > > seer Mother earth news has a how-to on their website, pretty good stove by the looks of it, I didn't build that stove, but used a few ideas to make my old garage woodstove multi-fuel capable. At the time I was working part time at a junk yard for cars/trucks and parts instead of pay, so had access to hundreds of gallons of drain oil, the burner they describe burns clean (oderless) even with ancient oil, and will burn anything that will flow. Ken.| 8433|8433|2005-08-02 18:39:21|prairiemaidca|Doing the Origami|Hi John; Basically it's a matter of following a proven set of plans and putting the dimensions out on to a piece of steel. I've never asked how Brent came up with the numbers, if it was trial and error or what, but it works. Various plans are available from a couple of designers. I did the paper model thing from Brent's book before actually making Prairie Maids hull. When you make a cardboard model you will see very quickly how it happens. Martin Forster(Prairie Maid)| 8434|8426|2005-08-02 21:02:39|seeratlas|Re: Multifuel stove/ heater.|Thanks a bunch ken, I'm on it. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Didn't Brent and/or others post something about setting up a diesel > > drip burner in his homemade stainless multifuel stove/cabin heater > > design that might also use other available 'oils'? > > > > Dunno about the epa guys, but wouldn't such a system also be able to > > utilize used engine and/or bio oils as fuel? I'm thinking of building > > into my hull a substantial fresh engine oil supply tank, and wondering > > why I shouldn't add a corresponding 'used' engine oil tank which I can > > then filter and run thru a multi fuel (solid fuel pellets, coal, > > charcoal, wood, and diesel/oil drip) stove/cabin heater for cooler > > nights in colder climes. > > > > trying to wind this design up :) > > > > seer > > Mother earth news has a how-to on their website, pretty good stove > by the looks of it, I didn't build that stove, but used a few ideas to > make my old garage woodstove multi-fuel capable. > At the time I was working part time at a junk yard for cars/trucks > and parts instead of pay, so had access to hundreds of gallons of > drain oil, the burner they describe burns clean (oderless) even with > ancient oil, and will burn anything that will flow. > > Ken. | 8435|8431|2005-08-03 01:32:16|gschnell|Re: Doing Origami|John A really good way to get a feel for it is to buy a roll of 6" wide brass shim stock and trace the plans straight on to it, cut it where indicated, pull the cur edges together like you would if building the real thing and solder ( rather than weld) the edges together. It results in a very good model and clearly shows how origami works (behaves like steel plate). Gord johnh94927 wrote: > So how does one go about doing the origami design: trace the pieces > to > be cut out that will result in a hull of a given shape? > I only had the chance to breeze through a friend's copy of swain's > book, and didn't see much about the design part of the process. > I know how to weld, no problem, but i dont want to go cutting pieces > out at random in the hopes that the end result will float. Mainly, > just > for the sake of curiousity, Id like to know how the cut-and-fold bit > is > determined. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8436|8426|2005-08-03 01:58:04|jim dorey|Re: Multifuel stove/ heater.|On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:25:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: > Didn't Brent and/or others post something about setting up a diesel > drip burner in his homemade stainless multifuel stove/cabin heater > design that might also use other available 'oils'? > > Dunno about the epa guys, but wouldn't such a system also be able to > utilize used engine and/or bio oils as fuel? I'm thinking of building > into my hull a substantial fresh engine oil supply tank, and wondering > why I shouldn't add a corresponding 'used' engine oil tank which I can > then filter and run thru a multi fuel (solid fuel pellets, coal, > charcoal, wood, and diesel/oil drip) stove/cabin heater for cooler > nights in colder climes. > > trying to wind this design up :) > > seer ar as i know, epa considers burning used motor oil or heat or steam electric, recycling. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8437|8431|2005-08-03 01:59:31|Gerd|Re: Doing Origami|if it is the design process you are interested in, check out my site, there is a long rexplanation on how I did the desing and development of the pattern at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/index.html you can also download my workbook there, contains the same info plus anoth 150 or so pages with pictures on the actual building of the hull. Gerd The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8438|8438|2005-08-03 10:38:59|khooper_fboats|Adjustable Pitch Prop|FWIW I also would be very interested in a variable pitch prop which could be made by somebody at home with reasonable tools ("reasonable" in this context means one of those $700 mini mill-lathes I think, not a crescent wrench and a buzz box. =^). Aping the Hundested perhaps, if not replicating it. This would allow not only tweaking the pitch for the sake of power generation and for the sake of optimizing for multiple power sources, and all but eliminating drag, but it would allow the elimination of the transmission entirely. I would pay money for this, just like for boat plans. While we're on it, two-speed winches just can't be that hard to design, again being made from pipe and everything else milled as need be. Portlights, winches and adjustable pitch prop are incredibly expensive items and I just don't see any need for that. --Hoop| 8439|8439|2005-08-03 12:10:26|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: Digest Number 1264 adjustible pitch prop|hi this is my first post to this group. my take from making a living in boat repair for 30 years it that the variable pitch prop is a very high maintenance item, the upfront cost is more than made up for in ongiong problems. Albin boats among others from scandinavia had this type of system. It is ok when the boat is out of the water a lot but not recomended for continual use. It make more sense in commercial use like trawling and tugboats where high fuel useage and massive loads are common. If you are still interested there are many floating around marine parts junkyards coupled to old volvos, a wanted ad in soundings or national fisherman would turn up some deals. mike| 8440|8426|2005-08-03 17:06:42|brentswain38|Re: Multifuel stove/ heater.|Yes I ran a drip feed oil line to my wood stove. It soots up the chimney in a few days, but when that happens I pour a bit of diesel down the chimney and light it from the nbottom starting a chimney fire. With 4 inch 1/8th inch wall chimney , it gets abit red around the bottom, but a splash of water from time to time takes care of that and there is little chance of it burning thru.If on a cold noght i pour a cup of used engine oil in the stove , on the ashes,before lighting it, and turn the damper down, it burns all night. The average 50 ft power boat burns 1,200 litres of fuel an hour.No matter how efficient the engine, that puts a lot more particulates in the air. Multiply that byt the number of such large engines out there and check the oil spots in a parking lot, oil which drains ito the ocean eventually. Worried about your personal polution? Give up your house car and go cruising, and you'll reduce your environmental footprint by over 90%. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:25:26 -0300, seeratlas wrote: > > > Didn't Brent and/or others post something about setting up a diesel > > drip burner in his homemade stainless multifuel stove/cabin heater > > design that might also use other available 'oils'? > > > > Dunno about the epa guys, but wouldn't such a system also be able to > > utilize used engine and/or bio oils as fuel? I'm thinking of building > > into my hull a substantial fresh engine oil supply tank, and wondering > > why I shouldn't add a corresponding 'used' engine oil tank which I can > > then filter and run thru a multi fuel (solid fuel pellets, coal, > > charcoal, wood, and diesel/oil drip) stove/cabin heater for cooler > > nights in colder climes. > > > > trying to wind this design up :) > > > > seer > > ar as i know, epa considers burning used motor oil or heat or steam > electric, recycling. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8441|8422|2005-08-03 17:08:05|brentswain38|Re: More Electric Hybrid drive & Prop Question for Brent & others|In BC where logs sometimes hi the prop, a variable pitch prop would be far more trouble than it's worth.They are better in log free areas. A cheap spare is a better option. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Remember Colin, > I'm not talking about pure electric drive but a hybrid so I'll still > have a diesel, at least for generating lOL :) > > > Hey Brent, > Have you ever turned your creative mind towards a home made variable > pitch prop system? > > I wonder if there is a simple way to do something with concentric pipe > shafts since my drive setup looks like its going to be belt drive off > a short and therefore stiff shaft run into a thrust bearing plate. > One of the 'issues' with electric drive is that you have so much > torque available at pretty much the whole rpm range, you want to swing > a big highpitched multiblade prop, however, this represents hella drag > when trying to purely sail...I had a Martek on the Falcon for a few > years which was a self aligning and reversing prop, but I wasn't > impressed with the 'bang for buck' and there was a lot of 'bang' when > it reversed the blades. The service on the complicated internals > didn't impress me much either. > > Maybe some kind of simple folder like you mentioned before, but again, > a big two blade folder is going to require a helluva deep aperature > for sufficient clearance when folded isn't it? And having never used > one, aren't there some substantial 'reversing' issues? > > Any help or ideas from the group? > as always thanks in advance. > > Just to keep everyone up to date, I've gotten a bunch of reports on > the pricing, reliability, and installed performance of the variously > available motors and more and more I'm convinced the hybrid belt drive > electric is the way I'm going to go. About the only thing remaining > is to nail down the details on going the AC motor side of the coin and > see if that is competitive price and utility wise. > > In that regard, has anyone come across any design issues on running > lots of AC vs. DC voltage around a metal boat in fresh and saltwater? > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Hi Seer > > > > Electric drive isn't really my thing, so I can't get > > over-excited about it - but for some reason your post > > got me thinking about Clive Sinclair's C5 car - well > > - more of a scooter really ... > > Car was crap, but the motor was good. Although most > > people know the motor as coming from a washing machine, > > the same firm (Polymotor of Italy) also makes motors > > for torpedoes ! > > > > http://www.solarnavigator.net/ > > http://www.solarnavigator.net/inventors/sir_clive_sinclair.htm > > http://www.speedace.info/electric_cars.htm > > > > Good luck with your research > > > > Colin | 8442|8442|2005-08-03 17:10:35|brentswain38|Vinegar and epoxy|Using vinegar is a great way to clean up epoxy, even epoxy tar. It's much easier on your hands that epoxy thiners or laquer thiner, and much cheaper.It also works on brushes, etc. Brent| 8443|8431|2005-08-03 19:58:26|johnh94927|Re: Doing Origami|Thanks to all who replied. I'm getting the feeling that the origami boat thing is more a matter of cut-and-paste, trial-and-error than science. Maybe it's zen. Well, gotta go round up some cardboard and scissors. Thanks, John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > if it is the design process you are interested in, check out my site, > there is a long rexplanation on how I did the desing and development > of the pattern at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/index.html > you can also download my workbook there, contains the same info plus > anoth 150 or so pages with pictures on the actual building of the hull. > > Gerd > The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 8444|8431|2005-08-04 02:10:53|seeratlas|Re: Doing Origami|Well it seems to me there are two ways of going about origami. You can model your boat in something easy to carve, say heavy closed foam, some kind of soft wood, or maybe even clay, then lay on a few layers of some kind of dimensionally stable material that you're going to be able to peel off in two halves. Once you have the two half pieces, you can try opening up a dart in each side to make the material lie flat... when you get to that point, there's your pattern. now just extrapolate the size up :) or buy Brent's book, and decide which one of his finished plan sets you want to try LOL. There are other builders on the this forum also. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "johnh94927" wrote: > Thanks to all who replied. I'm getting the feeling that the origami > boat thing is more a matter of cut-and-paste, trial-and-error than > science. Maybe it's zen. Well, gotta go round up some cardboard and > scissors. Thanks, John > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > if it is the design process you are interested in, check out my site, > > there is a long rexplanation on how I did the desing and development > > of the pattern at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/index.html > > you can also download my workbook there, contains the same info plus > > anoth 150 or so pages with pictures on the actual building of the > hull. > > > > Gerd > > The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 8445|8445|2005-08-04 05:47:57|sae140|Zero prop drag|This morning's armchair-engineering solution to the "prop-drag when sailing" problem: a) Fit twin rudders, thus clearing the central area of the transom b) fit cv-joint to prop-shaft c) build shallow tunnel where the skeg is normally located. Then, using a two-bladed prop, pull the prop clear of the water when sailing. The prop hub to just clear the hull immediately aft of the transom with blades held horizontally just above the waterline. No doubt someone's already tried this ... ? Colin| 8446|8445|2005-08-04 07:40:29|edward_stoneuk|Re: Zero prop drag|Colin, A bit like an inboard/outboard Z drive that are on some fast motor boats. The engine(s) are usually well aft for Z drives though that could be modified. Regards, Ted| 8447|8445|2005-08-04 08:31:26|Dave Kellogg|Re: Zero prop drag|Good morning from the US, I am a new member to this group and am learning a great deal from past posts and pictures of the boats being built. I am a member of several groups, one being the electric boats at Yahoo. Your site was mention in one of the posts from the electric boat group and I wanted to investigate, so I joined Origani. This Zero prop drag problem is one that I have been given a great deal of thought and even some experiments using a thrust tunnel around my prop that can be closed when pure sailing. The reason is that I will be using the prop for a regeneration of electricity to my batteries. When the batteries are full, or not needed, the tunnel can be closed so the prop will not spin any longer, therefore reducing or eliminating drag, I have a full keel boat and the tunnel can be installed around the prop and extend in front along the sides of the full Keel. One advantage that I can see from the tunnel is prop efficency, much the same as a Kortz nozzle. Being a displacement hull and speed dictiated by water length/drag and the fact that I want the most effecient use for a limited amount of power in the electric motor the tunnel effect seems to be a resonable idea, If anyone has tried this I would love to hear about any problems or successes. Dave Kellogg S/V Redeemed edward_stoneuk wrote: Colin, A bit like an inboard/outboard Z drive that are on some fast motor boats. The engine(s) are usually well aft for Z drives though that could be modified. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8448|8442|2005-08-04 08:33:48|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Vinegar and epoxy|With all due respect ... please don't use vinegar to get epoxy off your hands! Don't use epoxy thinners or lacquer thinners either. In fact, don't use any sort of solvent, as they all carry nasties into your skin. It's much better to just make sure you don't get the epoxy on your hands to start with (a box of surgical gloves is cheap), or simply peel it off when set. Vinegar is a cheap and 'environmentally friendly' way to clean up expoxy messes, though. Chris brentswain38 wrote: > Using vinegar is a great way to clean up epoxy, even epoxy tar. It's > much easier on your hands that epoxy thiners or laquer thiner, and much > cheaper.It also works on brushes, etc. > Brent | 8449|8445|2005-08-04 09:21:58|sae140|Re: Zero prop drag|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Colin, > A bit like an inboard/outboard Z drive that are on some fast motor > boats. The engine(s) are usually well aft for Z drives though that > could be modified. > Regards, > Ted Hi Ted - not exactly what I had in kind - rather more like the retractable prop system that was used on the big St. Pierre dories which have the engine near the middle of the boat. The difference here is that whereas the St.Pierre's had their prop pulled up into a cavity within the hull, I'm suggesting that the propshaft is longer than usual, so that when the prop is pulled up, it comes to rest just aft of the transom. To make it a really snug arrangement, if a shallow 'tunnel' (a few inches) was fabricated where the skeg is currently attached, then the propshaft would then lie mainly within that tunnel when raised. Maybe this is more hassle than it's worth, but a small 'notch' in the lower edge of the transom would certainly be necessary, in order that the prop hub (and therefore the blades as well) cleared the waterline. The retraction arm would have a cutlass bearing on the end (obviously), and would slide up inside a slot (like a daggerboard does) on the inboard side of the transom. Colin| 8450|8445|2005-08-04 09:27:51|sae140|Re: Zero prop drag|Hi Dave > This Zero prop drag problem is one that I have been given a great deal of thought and even some experiments using a thrust tunnel around my prop that can be closed when pure sailing. I'd like to see what mechanism you have in mind to close-off the tunnel when sailing ... Any chance of a sketch showing what you have in mind ? Sounds interesting. Colin| 8451|8445|2005-08-04 11:08:28|Dave Kellogg|Re: Zero prop drag|Colin, Thank you for your interest, I've been working on some sketches that I would share with the group in a short time. The concept, if you can visualize, is like a shark gills that would open when the propeller was engaged demanding water to push. Then return to a smooth closed configuration when the demand was no longer necessary. I had a "brain fart" (I hope this term doesn't offend anyone) one night when I was watching a special on Sharks. ;-) and am trying to improve on it plus get the mechanical mechanism perfected using a trolling motor and some PVC tubing that comes close to the prop diameter. Of course with the feed end closed off and only the gills (thrust tube openings) exposed for the delivery of water. I should be ready for some tests in a few days. I'm mounting the trolling motor to my dock so that I can get a good idea and numbers on the thrust produced during the tests. My trolling motor is a small 32 lb thrust but should be adequate for theory tests. The prop that I've chosen is a 3 blade 12 inch that I rescued from a boat salvage yard here in Florida. It has an agressive pitch and was once used on an inboard ChrisCraft power boat. What led me to this prop is that it appears to have a great ability to catch water to regenerate, there in lays the problem. In order to use this for regenerative quality the "gills" open with no demand from the prop to pull the water, that's what I'm working on now, any suggestions or thoughts would be openly accepted. Actually there are several reasons for wanting to try this theory, one to proctect the Prop, increase thrust, decrease drag while sailing, increase manuveing in channels or canals by directing thrust to the rudder. Reducing wear on the cutlass bearing/stuffingbox/motor by not having the prop spin uselessly is something that should be considered as a plus, no one likes to fix things that could be avoided. Dave Kellogg S/V Redeemed . sae140 wrote: Hi Dave > This Zero prop drag problem is one that I have been given a great deal of thought and even some experiments using a thrust tunnel around my prop that can be closed when pure sailing. I'd like to see what mechanism you have in mind to close-off the tunnel when sailing ... Any chance of a sketch showing what you have in mind ? Sounds interesting. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8452|8445|2005-08-04 12:31:08|sae140|Re: Zero prop drag|Hi Dave I like the idea of a gill - automatic opening on demand - it'll be interesting to see how you get around reverse thrust, which presumably will try to shut the gills (?). I'm sure there's a workaround. Very best of luck with your experiments. Keep us posted. I've uploaded a couple of sketches (into Photos/ Drive Shaft Info) of the much cruder system I have in mind. Regards Colin| 8453|8453|2005-08-04 12:37:52|hjrndd|Tahiti and Tahitiana - the differens and the rascal !|http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm Paul T! Being deaf - and obviously dumb and totally shameless too and sailing around the world on a lie...! quote... "Single handed "La Chica" a 31' ketch (own boat) from Cape Town to Cabadelo (Brazil) via St. Helena island (3800 miles). It was the first single handed crossing of the South Atlantic by a deaf person. Sailed "La Chica" from Cabadelo to St. Martin via Ills du Salut (2400 miles). Sailed "La Chica" for three years (95-97) amongst the Caribbean islands. Sailed "La Chica" from Port of Spain to Bonaire and then directly to Key West (down the Caribbean sea – 1700 miles). Voyaged from Key West to Fort Myers Beach then through the Okeechobee waterway, joining the ICW at St. Lucy inlet to sail onto Norfolk and thence to Washington DC and finally Annapolis MD (1500 miles)." "Paul Thompson has become the first deaf sailor to cross the Southern Alantic Ocean alone, and he wants to sail around the world. Well when it came to my turn to fulfill my life's dream and build my own boat, there was only one boat for me, a Tahiti Ketch it had to be. However times had changed and good wood was no longer cheap or easily available. Also Hanna's boat had a reputation of being slow if comfortable. Fortunately I have a solid design background and I saw the solutions quickly. One - to me steel was a logical choice for a heavy displacement boat. Two - looking at her lines I could see no reason why she should be slow but when I looked at her rig all was explained, the boat was completely under canvassed. Well I redesigned her to be built in steel and in- creased her sail area from Hanna's 450 Sq.Ft. to 750 Sq.Ft. on a Cutter rig. La Chica was built over four years from 1989 to 1993. Sometimes working full time and sometimes not. She was the first boat I personally built and she was, and still is, a labor of love." ************************************************** It might be tolerabel if you build yourself a non-profit boat after someone else's drawings out of a book (- even without asking) - but you better keep it to yourself, not BRAGGING about it over the internet. BUT - when you even claim that you with your "solid design-background" have RE-DESIGNED and CONSTRUCTED the boat yourself, you have definitly crossed the border to unprecedented effrontery and made yourself the ultimate international fool. ENDLESS SHAME ON YOU! The boat "you have constructed" and called 'la Chica' is described on pages 274-278 in Weston Farmers book "From My Old Boat Shop, IMPC Camden Main 1979. *HE* reconstructed it after the parent boat 'Tahiti' by John G. Hanna. As Weston Farmer wrote: at the present writing, over 700 sets of plans of Tahitiana have been sold worldwide ($49). Obviously you have used the drawings on pages 275-277 in his book - but(!)you have the nerve to publish on your site Weston Farmers drawing (page 276) as your own. (http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/LaChica%20Drawing.s.jpg).| 8454|8453|2005-08-04 13:12:58|Alex Christie|(MEMBER BANNED) Re: [origamiboats] Tahiti and Tahitiana - the diffe|"hjrndd", consider yourself removed and permanently banned from the group for your violating just about every simple rule I set up for this group, rules of conduct a pre-schooler could follow, although to compare you to pre-schoolers (who apparently can spell better than you) is unfair to pre-schoolers. If you have an issue with Paul T of Chica, take it up with him personally, not here, because you'll find no support in this group for your flaming ways. Calling someone a liar, and "dumb" (your reference to Paul being "deaf and dumb" is the lowest slander of a person I've ever seen on this group, besides being in really poor taste). I didn't set up Origamiboats to "out" people, I set it up to talk about origami steel boats. I note you joined this group only yesterday -- you obviously had an agenda in joining that had nothing to do with the subject of the group. Your first post, which is now also your last post, will stand as an example of how to get yourself banned from this group. Alex Moderator, Origamiboats On 4-Aug-05, at 9:37 AM, hjrndd wrote: > http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm > > Paul T! > > Being deaf - and obviously dumb and totally shameless too and sailing > around the world on a lie...! > > > quote... > > "Single handed "La Chica" a 31' ketch (own boat) from > Cape Town to > Cabadelo (Brazil) via St. Helena island (3800 miles). It was the > first > single handed crossing of the South Atlantic by a deaf person. > Sailed "La Chica" from Cabadelo to St. Martin via Ills du > Salut > (2400 miles). > Sailed "La Chica" for three years (95-97) amongst the > Caribbean > islands. Sailed "La Chica" from Port of Spain to Bonaire and > then > directly to Key West (down the Caribbean sea – 1700 miles). > Voyaged > from Key West to Fort Myers Beach then through the Okeechobee > waterway, > joining the ICW at St. Lucy inlet to sail onto Norfolk and thence > to Washington DC and finally Annapolis MD (1500 miles)." > > > "Paul Thompson has become the first deaf sailor to cross the Southern > Alantic Ocean alone, and he wants to sail around the world. > >     Well when it came to my turn to fulfill my life's >     dream and build my own boat, there was only one boat >     for me, a Tahiti Ketch it had to be. However times >     had changed and good wood was no longer cheap or >     easily available. >     Also Hanna's boat had a reputation of being slow if >     comfortable. > >     Fortunately I have a solid design background and I >     >     saw the solutions quickly. One - to me steel was a >     >     logical choice for a heavy displacement boat. Two - >     >     looking at her lines I could see no reason why she >     >     should be slow but when I looked at her rig all was >     >     explained, the boat was completely under canvassed. >     >     Well I redesigned her to be built in steel and in- >     >     creased her sail area from Hanna's 450 Sq.Ft. to >     >     750 Sq.Ft. on a Cutter rig. > > > La Chica was built over four years from 1989 to 1993. Sometimes > working full time and sometimes not. She was the first boat I > personally built and she was, and still is, a labor of love." > ************************************************** > > > It might be tolerabel if you build yourself a non-profit boat after > someone else's drawings out of a book (- even without asking) - but > you better keep it to yourself, not BRAGGING about it over the > internet. > > BUT - when you even claim that you with your > > "solid design-background" > > have RE-DESIGNED and CONSTRUCTED the boat yourself, you have definitly > crossed the border to unprecedented effrontery and made yourself the > ultimate international fool. > > ENDLESS SHAME ON YOU! > > The boat "you have constructed" and called 'la Chica' is described > on pages 274-278 in Weston Farmers book "From My Old Boat Shop, > IMPC Camden Main 1979. > *HE* reconstructed it after the parent boat 'Tahiti' by John G. > Hanna. As Weston Farmer wrote: at the present writing, over 700 > sets of plans of Tahitiana have been sold worldwide ($49). > > Obviously you have used the drawings on pages 275-277 in his book > - but(!)you have the nerve to publish on your site > Weston Farmers drawing (page 276) as your own. > (http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/LaChica%20Drawing.s.jpg). > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. >   > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8455|8426|2005-08-04 13:53:43|denis buggy|Re: Multifuel stove/ heater.|dear seer I have a waste oil heater for some years , a more treacherous animal cannot be found . if you have a modern pressure fed with electric eye to detect flame out then you are ok however if you have mine it will snuff just when you walk out the door and boil the drops of oil on the hotplate then will ignite the gas liquid mess and explode liquid flame in all directions if you are near it is a napalm factory in a small steel box ----- Original Message ----- . anything can do it a drop of water in the fuel a sooted up chimney anything . if you can use a wick diesel or better paraffin /kero heater it will be much safer cheaper and more efficient regards Denis From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Multifuel stove/ heater. Didn't Brent and/or others post something about setting up a diesel drip burner in his homemade stainless multifuel stove/cabin heater design that might also use other available 'oils'? Dunno about the epa guys, but wouldn't such a system also be able to utilize used engine and/or bio oils as fuel? I'm thinking of building into my hull a substantial fresh engine oil supply tank, and wondering why I shouldn't add a corresponding 'used' engine oil tank which I can then filter and run thru a multi fuel (solid fuel pellets, coal, charcoal, wood, and diesel/oil drip) stove/cabin heater for cooler nights in colder climes. trying to wind this design up :) seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8456|8456|2005-08-04 16:23:37|seeratlas|Brent-re ur onboard alt welder,|Brent, Came across this guy who took a chrysler alternator, rigged it up with some external diodes and turned it into a DC welder which I presume adds some options to your setup. http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gaswelder.html If nothing else he has the diodes out where they can be cooled for longer life :) seer| 8457|8438|2005-08-04 23:21:38|jim dorey|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:38:28 -0300, khooper_fboats wrote: > > FWIW I also would be very interested in a variable pitch prop which > could be made by somebody at home with reasonable tools ("reasonable" > in this context means one of those $700 mini mill-lathes I think, not > a crescent wrench and a buzz box. =^). Aping the Hundested perhaps, if > not replicating it. > > This would allow not only tweaking the pitch for the sake of power > generation and for the sake of optimizing for multiple power sources, > and all but eliminating drag, but it would allow the elimination of > the transmission entirely. > > I would pay money for this, just like for boat plans. > > While we're on it, two-speed winches just can't be that hard to > design, again being made from pipe and everything else milled as need be. > > Portlights, winches and adjustable pitch prop are incredibly expensive > items and I just don't see any need for that. > > --Hoop http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/sKaar/oddstuff/variable-pitch-prop.jpg i was figuring an air filled bladder instead of a yoke, then it could be automatically feathered by following manifold vacuum or something. altogether i wouldn't trust it, but it'd probably work. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8458|8431|2005-08-04 23:29:02|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Doing Origami|That would work fine if I was building a sail boat but I want to build a Sternwheeler with a flat bottem. Have been playing with the Hulls Program and the freeship as well as looked at the Yago and saved it. For me it is a lurning curve, Program development(Freeship) and time. On Hulls it is very time cosuming to go back through and make shure all the ploted points are true when doing flat bottem predomanently straitsided hulls with 8 chines to get hull and deck to work on freeship to my likeing. but I am having fun and think Brents book can still offer a lot and will be wanting a copy soon. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Well it seems to me there are two ways of going about origami. You > can model your boat in something easy to carve, say heavy closed foam, > some kind of soft wood, or maybe even clay, then lay on a few layers > of some kind of dimensionally stable material that you're going to be > able to peel off in two halves. Once you have the two half pieces, > you can try opening up a dart in each side to make the material lie > flat... > when you get to that point, there's your pattern. now just extrapolate > the size up :) > > or > > buy Brent's book, and decide which one of his finished plan sets you > want to try LOL. There are other builders on the this forum also. > > seer | 8459|8445|2005-08-04 23:54:06|jim dorey|Re: Zero prop drag|On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:08:27 -0300, Dave Kellogg wrote: > The prop that I've chosen is a 3 blade 12 inch that I rescued from a boat > salvage yard here in Florida. It has an agressive pitch and was once > used on an > inboard ChrisCraft power boat. What led me to this prop is that it > appears to > have a great ability to catch water to regenerate, there in lays the > problem. In > order to use this for regenerative quality the "gills" open with no > demand from > the prop to pull the water, that's what I'm working on now, any > suggestions or > thoughts would be openly accepted. so, is somethin like a torpedo tube on a sub? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8460|8445|2005-08-05 08:18:29|Dave Kellogg|Re: Zero prop drag|Good morning Jim, The submarine tube is almost correct, just invision the tube being split by the keel, half on each side and then closed as it runs toward the bow. The "gills" are the openings on each side of this tube that will allow water in to produce thrust out the open end where the prop spins. The prop and the tube open end are very close to the rudder giving it a quick response because the is directed at the rudder. I have a sketch that is almost finished and will post, hopefully later today. Dave Kellogg S/V Redeemed jim dorey wrote: On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:08:27 -0300, Dave Kellogg wrote: > The prop that I've chosen is a 3 blade 12 inch that I rescued from a boat > salvage yard here in Florida. It has an agressive pitch and was once > used on an > inboard ChrisCraft power boat. What led me to this prop is that it > appears to > have a great ability to catch water to regenerate, there in lays the > problem. In > order to use this for regenerative quality the "gills" open with no > demand from > the prop to pull the water, that's what I'm working on now, any > suggestions or > thoughts would be openly accepted. so, is somethin like a torpedo tube on a sub? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8461|8438|2005-08-05 09:52:37|sae140|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:38:28 -0300, khooper_fboats > wrote: > > > > > FWIW I also would be very interested in a variable pitch prop which > > could be made by somebody at home with reasonable tools ("reasonable" > > in this context means one of those $700 mini mill-lathes I think, not > > a crescent wrench and a buzz box. =^). Aping the Hundested perhaps, if > > not replicating it. As I see it, the clever bit would be to achieve more than 90 degrees of blade rotation. Hard to do with a simple crank - but - if you've got a milling machine, then a coarse helical thread cut into an inner shaft could be used to rotate the prop blades a full 180. Either push-pull the inner or the outer shaft to change pitch. You'd need an anti-rotation pin-and-slot between the shafts of course. I'm currently working on a 'wrench and buzz-box' design which I'm hoping will give around 130 degrees of rotation - from around 40 degrees in reverse, through neutral and forward attack angles to fully 'in-line' for minimum drag. Because it's a non-precision engineering solution, I'm running the shafts that hold the blades right across the hub inside a pair of thick-wall tubes. Blades fully balanced to reduce operating forces. All stainless with salt-water lubrication. But will it work ?? I'll be taking bets shortly .... ;-) Colin| 8462|8431|2005-08-05 11:35:10|seeratlas|Gord!! Where's the PIctures? :)|hehehe Man, you should have some updated photos for postin by now : seer| 8463|8463|2005-08-05 11:37:48|Joe Earsley|Trim Tab w/ Hydraulic Steering|Has anyone had any experience using a wind vane trim tab on a boat with hydraulic steering? Do you install a bypass valve around the steering pump for when the trim tab is in use? joe| 8464|8464|2005-08-05 11:55:02|seeratlas|Battery Installation Question|Since I'm bound and determined to go hybrid electric if at all possible, I'm going to be up to my scuppers in batteries. :) Does anyone see anything wrong with building what amounts to an integral tank in the center lowest part of the hull, and mounting almost all of the batteries as low as possible there (fully secured of course) then capped with sealable lid(s), forced air vented for cooling and removing the hydrogen/oxy mix from 'gassing' during charging (sparkless fan of course)? All the venting air would be drawn in and go back to, outside the hull. I would need to fab up some kind of a tank liner to keep any errant acid off the hull itself, and since this is the lowest part of the hull, but sealed off from the rest of it, I would likely need to lay a stainless pipe longitudinally thru the bottom to carry errant bilge fluids from forward, to aft of the tank. Seems to me this would give me maximum 'ballast' effect for all that lead, keep the fumes out of the living area and bilge, and ensure that no salt water ever got a chance to mix with any battery acid, unless the boat was essentially destroyed at which point i'd have other problems to deal with :). Near as I can figure, unless something get's holed or I take green water down an open hatch, I don't see how more than condensation is going to make it into the hull anyway. The shaft will be short, the actual motors driving it are small thus can be enclosed in its own chamber and assuming a good seal on the shaft, leakage should be next to nothing and entirely contained within that chamber. The only other 'holes' in the hull are the salt water intake for my big pressure pump and the exhaust from the diesel genset which will both be thru stout stainless standpipes. The only other opening is for my standpipe bowthruster mechanism, again, pretty secure from sea water entry. If anyone sees anything I'm missing or have overlooked that's going to bite me in rear, please sound off :) seer| 8465|8438|2005-08-05 12:05:59|khooper_fboats|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/sKaar/oddstuff/variable-pitch-prop.jpg Brilliant, thanks...could we not leave the springs out altogether if we did not mind a little bit of play? --Hoop| 8466|8464|2005-08-05 12:18:19|khooper_fboats|Re: Battery Installation Question|It just seems to me to be a little comical: 1. Add thousands of pounds of ballast to the boat. The ballast is made of lead. 2. Add a tremendous amount of battery capacity to the boat. Fret about it weighing too much. Fret about it being mounted low enough. The bateries are made mostly of lead. Why not suss out a way to use the batteries themselves for ballast (more accurately, a way to use your ballast to store electricity)? I went ahead an threw together an archive of the elctricboats group so I can run searches into it, thanks for the recommendation as it's a very informative resource. Anyway I find from running searches there that I am not the first person to think like this although I haven't found an account of anybody actually doing it yet: http://www.crazyface.net/electricboats/index.html It may be stupid in the end to treat your ballast as a consumable even if it has a long life but it just seems so *obvious*...| 8467|8464|2005-08-05 12:36:58|Wesley Cox|Re: Battery Installation Question|What about fluid spillage while heeling? I, too, have been trying to engineer myself into believing in the practicality of an all electric motor sailor because it's SO appealing. I have no experience with gel batteries. They are more expensive. Are they completely spill proof? How does their reliability and life expectancy compare to lead acid? seeratlas wrote: > Since I'm bound and determined to go hybrid electric if at all > possible, I'm going to be up to my scuppers in batteries. :) > > Does anyone see anything wrong with building what amounts to an > integral tank in the center lowest part of the hull, and mounting > almost all of the batteries as low as possible there (fully secured of > course) then capped with sealable lid(s), forced air vented for > cooling and removing the hydrogen/oxy mix from 'gassing' during > charging (sparkless fan of course)? All the venting air would be > drawn in and go back to, outside the hull. I would need to fab up some > kind of a tank liner to keep any errant acid off the hull itself, and > since this is the lowest part of the hull, but sealed off from the > rest of it, I would likely need to lay a stainless pipe longitudinally > thru the bottom to carry errant bilge fluids from forward, to aft of > the tank. > > Seems to me this would give me maximum 'ballast' effect for all that > lead, keep the fumes out of the living area and bilge, and ensure that > no salt water ever got a chance to mix with any battery acid, unless > the boat was essentially destroyed at which point i'd have other > problems to deal with :). > > Near as I can figure, unless something get's holed or I take green > water down an open hatch, I don't see how more than condensation is > going to make it into the hull anyway. The shaft will be short, the > actual motors driving it are small thus can be enclosed in its own > chamber and assuming a good seal on the shaft, leakage should be next > to nothing and entirely contained within that chamber. The only other > 'holes' in the hull are the salt water intake for my big pressure pump > and the exhaust from the diesel genset which will both be thru stout > stainless standpipes. The only other opening is for my standpipe > bowthruster mechanism, again, pretty secure from sea water entry. > > If anyone sees anything I'm missing or have overlooked that's going to > bite me in rear, please sound off :) > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8468|8464|2005-08-05 14:17:57|Paul Cotter|Re: Battery Installation Question|Seer, I know very little about this and I am sure you have uncovered most of the folks doing such things. There is a fellow who did such a retrofit with a Rawson 30. If I am not mistaken, he carved out some (much?) of the concrete/steel ballast and built battery compartments. I am not sure how he handled venting. Anyway, I think there is a way to contact him via the Rawson owners group (google “awesome rawson” or”concrete in the bilge”). He might have some perspective. For what it is worth. Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: 08/05/2005 7:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Battery Installation Question Since I'm bound and determined to go hybrid electric if at all possible, I'm going to be up to my scuppers in batteries. :) Does anyone see anything wrong with building what amounts to an integral tank in the center lowest part of the hull, and mounting almost all of the batteries as low as possible there (fully secured of course) then capped with sealable lid(s), forced air vented for cooling and removing the hydrogen/oxy mix from 'gassing' during charging (sparkless fan of course)? All the venting air would be drawn in and go back to, outside the hull. I would need to fab up some kind of a tank liner to keep any errant acid off the hull itself, and since this is the lowest part of the hull, but sealed off from the rest of it, I would likely need to lay a stainless pipe longitudinally thru the bottom to carry errant bilge fluids from forward, to aft of the tank. Seems to me this would give me maximum 'ballast' effect for all that lead, keep the fumes out of the living area and bilge, and ensure that no salt water ever got a chance to mix with any battery acid, unless the boat was essentially destroyed at which point i'd have other problems to deal with :). Near as I can figure, unless something get's holed or I take green water down an open hatch, I don't see how more than condensation is going to make it into the hull anyway. The shaft will be short, the actual motors driving it are small thus can be enclosed in its own chamber and assuming a good seal on the shaft, leakage should be next to nothing and entirely contained within that chamber. The only other 'holes' in the hull are the salt water intake for my big pressure pump and the exhaust from the diesel genset which will both be thru stout stainless standpipes. The only other opening is for my standpipe bowthruster mechanism, again, pretty secure from sea water entry. If anyone sees anything I'm missing or have overlooked that's going to bite me in rear, please sound off :) seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8469|8464|2005-08-05 14:44:20|seeratlas|Re: Battery Installation Question|Well, in essence that is what i'm doing. for every battery I can get below waterline, I'm contributing to ballast and thus can offset by not putting as much straight lead in as I had planned. The tradeoff is a long way from one to one tho. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > It just seems to me to be a little comical: > > 1. Add thousands of pounds of ballast to the boat. The ballast is made > of lead. > > 2. Add a tremendous amount of battery capacity to the boat. Fret about > it weighing too much. Fret about it being mounted low enough. The > bateries are made mostly of lead. > > Why not suss out a way to use the batteries themselves for ballast > (more accurately, a way to use your ballast to store electricity)? > > I went ahead an threw together an archive of the elctricboats group so > I can run searches into it, thanks for the recommendation as it's a > very informative resource. Anyway I find from running searches there > that I am not the first person to think like this although I haven't > found an account of anybody actually doing it yet: > > http://www.crazyface.net/electricboats/index.html > > It may be stupid in the end to treat your ballast as a consumable even > if it has a long life but it just seems so *obvious*... | 8470|8464|2005-08-05 14:57:24|seeratlas|Re: Battery Installation Question|A lot of the commercial guys are going with the glass mat batteries which hold the acid in a fabric mat. These batteries can be mounted sideways or endways , but they have some negatives not the least of which is additional cost. I'm going to try and do what I did with my battery underwater flashlight, i.e. vent each cell into a plastic tube that runs off remotely. So I can then use the heavy duty, deep cycle golf cart type batteries which are cheap, have good capacity, and can cycle quite a bit more times than the other types thus have better longevity. These batteries have screw in caps (or did last time i looked:), so I'll run little tubes from the vent in each cap up to a point where the boat can lay on its side and still not spill acid from the batt bank into the bilge. This also solves my dangerous gas in the bilge problem as there won't be any. Lastly, remember, I'm not talking 'all electric' motorsailor here, I'm talking diesel/hybrid electric. For running any substantial distance you're going to need a diesel genset to keep up with the greater amp draw depending on how often and how far you move. In my case instead of a big diesel aux (relatively speaking), a separate generator, a handful of batteries, transmission, clutch, big inverter, charger, and LP galley, etc. I trade for a single half sized diesel which runs my now larger generator, a lot more batteries, and a couple of 40 to 80 lb electric motors, and some electronics to run them, an inverter, and charger, and cheaper all electric galley. Net weight of systems will be slightly higher for the electric setup BUT, offsetting some of that as ballast should make the end displacements pretty darn close. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > What about fluid spillage while heeling? I, too, have been trying to > engineer myself into believing in the practicality of an all electric > motor sailor because it's SO appealing. I have no experience with gel > batteries. They are more expensive. Are they completely spill proof? > How does their reliability and life expectancy compare to lead acid? > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > Since I'm bound and determined to go hybrid electric if at all > > possible, I'm going to be up to my scuppers in batteries. :) > > > > Does anyone see anything wrong with building what amounts to an > > integral tank in the center lowest part of the hull, and mounting > > almost all of the batteries as low as possible there (fully secured of > > course) then capped with sealable lid(s), forced air vented for > > cooling and removing the hydrogen/oxy mix from 'gassing' during > > charging (sparkless fan of course)? All the venting air would be > > drawn in and go back to, outside the hull. I would need to fab up some > > kind of a tank liner to keep any errant acid off the hull itself, and > > since this is the lowest part of the hull, but sealed off from the > > rest of it, I would likely need to lay a stainless pipe longitudinally > > thru the bottom to carry errant bilge fluids from forward, to aft of > > the tank. > > > > Seems to me this would give me maximum 'ballast' effect for all that > > lead, keep the fumes out of the living area and bilge, and ensure that > > no salt water ever got a chance to mix with any battery acid, unless > > the boat was essentially destroyed at which point i'd have other > > problems to deal with :). > > > > Near as I can figure, unless something get's holed or I take green > > water down an open hatch, I don't see how more than condensation is > > going to make it into the hull anyway. The shaft will be short, the > > actual motors driving it are small thus can be enclosed in its own > > chamber and assuming a good seal on the shaft, leakage should be next > > to nothing and entirely contained within that chamber. The only other > > 'holes' in the hull are the salt water intake for my big pressure pump > > and the exhaust from the diesel genset which will both be thru stout > > stainless standpipes. The only other opening is for my standpipe > > bowthruster mechanism, again, pretty secure from sea water entry. > > > > If anyone sees anything I'm missing or have overlooked that's going to > > bite me in rear, please sound off :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > > " on the web. > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service . > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > | 8471|8464|2005-08-05 15:01:58|Wesley Cox|Re: Battery Installation Question|My language was inaccurate, sorry for that. An onboard generator is something I envision, as well. seeratlas wrote: > A lot of the commercial guys are going with the glass mat batteries > which hold the acid in a fabric mat. These batteries can be mounted > sideways or endways , but they have some negatives not the least of > which is additional cost. > > I'm going to try and do what I did with my battery underwater > flashlight, i.e. vent each cell into a plastic tube that runs off > remotely. So I can then use the heavy duty, deep cycle golf cart type > batteries which are cheap, have good capacity, and can cycle quite a > bit more times than the other types thus have better longevity. These > batteries have screw in caps (or did last time i looked:), so I'll run > little tubes from the vent in each cap up to a point where the boat > can lay on its side and still not spill acid from the batt bank into > the bilge. This also solves my dangerous gas in the bilge problem as > there won't be any. > > Lastly, remember, I'm not talking 'all electric' motorsailor here, I'm > talking diesel/hybrid electric. For running any substantial distance > you're going to need a diesel genset to keep up with the greater amp > draw depending on how often and how far you move. In my case instead > of a big diesel aux (relatively speaking), a separate generator, a > handful of batteries, transmission, clutch, big inverter, charger, and > LP galley, etc. I trade for a single half sized diesel which runs my > now larger generator, a lot more batteries, and a couple of 40 to 80 > lb electric motors, and some electronics to run them, an inverter, and > charger, and cheaper all electric galley. > > Net weight of systems will be slightly higher for the electric setup > BUT, offsetting some of that as ballast should make the end > displacements pretty darn close. > > > > seer > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > > What about fluid spillage while heeling? I, too, have been trying to > > engineer myself into believing in the practicality of an all electric > > motor sailor because it's SO appealing. I have no experience with gel > > batteries. They are more expensive. Are they completely spill proof? > > How does their reliability and life expectancy compare to lead acid? > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > Since I'm bound and determined to go hybrid electric if at all > > > possible, I'm going to be up to my scuppers in batteries. :) > > > > > > Does anyone see anything wrong with building what amounts to an > > > integral tank in the center lowest part of the hull, and mounting > > > almost all of the batteries as low as possible there (fully secured of > > > course) then capped with sealable lid(s), forced air vented for > > > cooling and removing the hydrogen/oxy mix from 'gassing' during > > > charging (sparkless fan of course)? All the venting air would be > > > drawn in and go back to, outside the hull. I would need to fab up some > > > kind of a tank liner to keep any errant acid off the hull itself, and > > > since this is the lowest part of the hull, but sealed off from the > > > rest of it, I would likely need to lay a stainless pipe longitudinally > > > thru the bottom to carry errant bilge fluids from forward, to aft of > > > the tank. > > > > > > Seems to me this would give me maximum 'ballast' effect for all that > > > lead, keep the fumes out of the living area and bilge, and ensure that > > > no salt water ever got a chance to mix with any battery acid, unless > > > the boat was essentially destroyed at which point i'd have other > > > problems to deal with :). > > > > > > Near as I can figure, unless something get's holed or I take green > > > water down an open hatch, I don't see how more than condensation is > > > going to make it into the hull anyway. The shaft will be short, the > > > actual motors driving it are small thus can be enclosed in its own > > > chamber and assuming a good seal on the shaft, leakage should be next > > > to nothing and entirely contained within that chamber. The only other > > > 'holes' in the hull are the salt water intake for my big pressure pump > > > and the exhaust from the diesel genset which will both be thru stout > > > stainless standpipes. The only other opening is for my standpipe > > > bowthruster mechanism, again, pretty secure from sea water entry. > > > > > > If anyone sees anything I'm missing or have overlooked that's going to > > > bite me in rear, please sound off :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > > > " on the web. > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service . > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 8472|8464|2005-08-05 15:12:51|khooper_fboats|Re: Battery Installation Question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Well, in essence that is what i'm doing. for every battery I can get > below waterline, I'm contributing to ballast and thus can offset by > not putting as much straight lead in as I had planned. The tradeoff is > a long way from one to one tho. Okay. I envision each keel being lined with epoxy, then 30 cells (or 24 depending) are constructed in each keel using plates which are gargantuan by any normal concept of "marine battery" and extremely robust. Any lead left over is hung off the bottom of the keel in a bulb to complete the ballast requirements. Interesting but very incomplete page on building batteries: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~weza/ Some information on "forming" the batteries, which involves forcing the lead plates to foam. There's a download here of an entire book on rebuilding batteries, haven't got too far with that yet.| 8473|8464|2005-08-05 15:25:24|Bill Jaine|Re: Battery Installation Question|But we do have an issue about batteries, sulphuric acid, sea-water and being below the waterline. For my money keep them above the water line but as far below the center of buoyancy/centre of gravity as you can get them while reducing their chances of drowning.. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: 5-Aug-05 2:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Battery Installation Question Well, in essence that is what i'm doing. for every battery I can get below waterline, I'm contributing to ballast and thus can offset by not putting as much straight lead in as I had planned. The tradeoff is a long way from one to one tho. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > It just seems to me to be a little comical: > > 1. Add thousands of pounds of ballast to the boat. The ballast is made > of lead. > > 2. Add a tremendous amount of battery capacity to the boat. Fret about > it weighing too much. Fret about it being mounted low enough. The > bateries are made mostly of lead. > > Why not suss out a way to use the batteries themselves for ballast > (more accurately, a way to use your ballast to store electricity)? > > I went ahead an threw together an archive of the elctricboats group so > I can run searches into it, thanks for the recommendation as it's a > very informative resource. Anyway I find from running searches there > that I am not the first person to think like this although I haven't > found an account of anybody actually doing it yet: > > HYPERLINK "http://www.crazyface.net/electricboats/index.html"http://www.crazyface.net/ electricboats/index.html > > It may be stupid in the end to treat your ballast as a consumable even > if it has a long life but it just seems so *obvious*... To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8474|8474|2005-08-05 15:48:21|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: Digest Number 1266 re battery installation|gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not use a fan. mike| 8475|8474|2005-08-05 16:18:02|Alex Christie|AGM batteries|I note that Solomon technologies tends to specify absorbed glass mat (AGM) batteries for their installation too. More costly, but sounds safer. Does anyone know what other attributes these batteries may have, positive or negative? Alex On 5-Aug-05, at 12:48 PM, mkriley@... wrote: > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the > vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in > the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have > to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not > use a fan. > mike > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8476|8464|2005-08-05 17:17:37|seeratlas|Re: Battery Installation Question|Bill, Well, like I said, I'm aware of the problem but seems to me that if they are in their own compartment, high sided for the same principle as using a standpipe, and reasonably well sealed with tubes running up and out of the ship, it would be extremely difficult to see how sea water could get in there..and under the conditions that it could, I would have a lot more to worry about than the minimal amount of acid that could actually be reached. Remember, I've had 'open' 12 volt motorcycle lead acid batteries down substantially over 100 ft while scuba diving, so I'm pretty sure my method for preventing water intrustion is going to handle being 2 feet under waterline inside of a steel yacht. In any event, i'm prepared to take that risk :) I note that I would be surprised if the battery banks of the average cruiseship were located anywhere near waterline :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > But we do have an issue about batteries, sulphuric acid, sea-water and being > below the waterline. > > For my money keep them above the water line but as far below the center of > buoyancy/centre of gravity as you can get them while reducing their chances > of drowning.. > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: 5-Aug-05 2:44 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Battery Installation Question > > > > Well, in essence that is what i'm doing. for every battery I can get > below waterline, I'm contributing to ballast and thus can offset by > not putting as much straight lead in as I had planned. The tradeoff is > a long way from one to one tho. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > It just seems to me to be a little comical: > > > > 1. Add thousands of pounds of ballast to the boat. The ballast is made > > of lead. > > > > 2. Add a tremendous amount of battery capacity to the boat. Fret about > > it weighing too much. Fret about it being mounted low enough. The > > bateries are made mostly of lead. > > > > Why not suss out a way to use the batteries themselves for ballast > > (more accurately, a way to use your ballast to store electricity)? > > > > I went ahead an threw together an archive of the elctricboats group so > > I can run searches into it, thanks for the recommendation as it's a > > very informative resource. Anyway I find from running searches there > > that I am not the first person to think like this although I haven't > > found an account of anybody actually doing it yet: > > > > HYPERLINK > "http://www.crazyface.net/electricboats/index.html"http://www.crazyface.net/ > electricboats/index.html > > > > It may be stupid in the end to treat your ballast as a consumable even > > if it has a long life but it just seems so *obvious*... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami > boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8477|8474|2005-08-05 17:22:29|seeratlas|Re: Digest Number 1266 re battery installation|Mike, thanks for the info. I was thinking some sort of plastic liners would be necessary. And yes, the 'snorkel' technique is what i have in mind. I was thinking of a fan for 'making sure' and for forced air cooling the battery compartment during heavy load when I would be making lots of excess power anyway. This is a pretty massive battery bank and I suspect when I start drawing the 'big amps' things are going to warm up in there. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not use a fan. > mike | 8478|8474|2005-08-05 17:25:45|seeratlas|Re: AGM batteries|Alex, take a look at this site, there's some real eye opening information about batteries there that I think everyone who uses em would benefit from reading including a very good discussion of the relative merits of the different types. http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.txt seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I note that Solomon technologies tends to specify absorbed glass mat > (AGM) batteries for their installation too. More costly, but sounds > safer. Does anyone know what other attributes these batteries may > have, positive or negative? > > Alex > > On 5-Aug-05, at 12:48 PM, mkriley@f... wrote: > > > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the > > vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in > > the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have > > to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not > > use a fan. > > mike > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8479|8474|2005-08-05 20:45:18|Bill Jaine|Re: AGM batteries|Hi Seer, I�ve been using Optima AGM batteries for many years now, in fact we used to sell them, but the company Optima were such a bunch of jerks that we tell our clients to buy their batteries elsewhere (but still Optima batteries). I sold the deep cycle blue Optima�s to the Canadian military to run their mobile radar towers and the starting red Optima�s for use in their emergency generating portable containers (the batteries they used to use shook to bits in 100 hours). The very limited off-gassing even under severe over-charging, the vibration resistance and the recovery from a deep discharge made them our battery of choice. Especially when even hit by a truck they won�t leak acid. The product we put them in is severe service (harsh environment) uninterruptible power systems. These batteries underwent extensive testing by the DND and passed with flying colours. Even though I dislike the company their batteries are great and I would use them for virtually any application. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: 5-Aug-05 5:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries Alex, take a look at this site, there's some real eye opening information about batteries there that I think everyone who uses em would benefit from reading including a very good discussion of the relative merits of the different types. HYPERLINK "http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.txt"http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev batt.txt seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I note that Solomon technologies tends to specify absorbed glass mat > (AGM) batteries for their installation too. More costly, but sounds > safer. Does anyone know what other attributes these batteries may > have, positive or negative? > > Alex > > On 5-Aug-05, at 12:48 PM, mkriley@f... wrote: > > > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the > > vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in > > the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have > > to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not > > use a fan. > > mike > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island +bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=fW JGZIbaeKAZ5yA_UOW3Uw"Vancouver island bc HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc &w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=VVm_- VRKGeZMANUbW3uv3w"Vancouver island HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is land+bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.si g=JA8i0Txr2igDOvhJBsgAMA"British columbia canada HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv er+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=RkTpPb8YZ1HTgnfN 1f7e4Q"Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8480|8474|2005-08-05 23:15:18|seeratlas|Re: AGM batteries|Bill, I've heard good things about the Optima's but after reviewing the material in the previous post where I cite a discussion by the rep from Trojan on how the batteries work etc. It seems that I can get a lot more 'bang' for buck out of the golf cart ones in the long run. Its a function of electrolyte and charging manner and the number of cycles I can get from the golfies, and Optima's cost multiples of what I can get the Trojan's for. My research indicates that if I'm careful and watch my charging (easier when I'm going to be on the boat so much) I can get upwards of 5 to 7 years out of a bank of trojan 105's. That cuts my cost per kilowatt waaaaaaay down. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > Hi Seer, > > > > I've been using Optima AGM batteries for many years now, in fact we used to > sell them, but the company Optima were such a bunch of jerks that we tell > our clients to buy their batteries elsewhere (but still Optima batteries). > > > > I sold the deep cycle blue Optima's to the Canadian military to run their > mobile radar towers and the starting red Optima's for use in their emergency > generating portable containers (the batteries they used to use shook to bits > in 100 hours). > > > > The very limited off-gassing even under severe over-charging, the vibration > resistance and the recovery from a deep discharge made them our battery of > choice. Especially when even hit by a truck they won't leak acid. > > > > The product we put them in is severe service (harsh environment) > uninterruptible power systems. These batteries underwent extensive testing > by the DND and passed with flying colours. > > > > Even though I dislike the company their batteries are great and I would use > them for virtually any application. > > > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: 5-Aug-05 5:26 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries > > > > Alex, > take a look at this site, there's some real eye opening information > about batteries there that I think everyone who uses em would benefit > from reading including a very good discussion of the relative merits > of the different types. > > > HYPERLINK > "http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.txt"http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev > batt.txt > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I note that Solomon technologies tends to specify absorbed glass mat > > (AGM) batteries for their installation too. More costly, but sounds > > safer. Does anyone know what other attributes these batteries may > > have, positive or negative? > > > > Alex > > > > On 5-Aug-05, at 12:48 PM, mkriley@f... wrote: > > > > > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the > > > vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > > > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in > > > the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have > > > to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > > > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not > > > use a fan. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island > +bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=fW > JGZIbaeKAZ5yA_UOW3Uw"Vancouver island bc > > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc > &w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=VVm_- > VRKGeZMANUbW3uv3w"Vancouver island > > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is > land+bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.si > g=JA8i0Txr2igDOvhJBsgAMA"British columbia canada > > > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv > er+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=RkTpPb8YZ1HTgnfN > 1f7e4Q"Yacht > > > > > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami > boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8481|8431|2005-08-06 01:29:15|gschnell|Re: Gord!! Where's the PIctures? :)|What ya talkin' 'bout? Pictures?? What pictures? Gord seeratlas wrote: > hehehe > Man, you should have some updated photos for postin by now : > > seer > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island Vancouver British columbia bc island canada Yacht > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8482|8453|2005-08-06 03:56:53|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Tahiti and Tahitiana - the differens and the rascal !|Hi, Whoever you are. Thank you for bringing the problem with the image (lines plan) to my attention. The page was done for me by a friend who is not into sailing and so would not have noticed that there was problem. I should have but did not so the fault is solely mine. However is was an innocent mistake. I have removed the image and it will stay removed until I get the opportunity to scan my drawing and put it up. So once again I thank you. I just wish that you could have brought the matter to my attention in a more seemly manner. My email address is on the site, which I am sure you are aware of as you seem to have studied the site quite thoroughly. Regards, Paul Thompson hjrndd wrote: >http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm > >Paul T! > >Being deaf - and obviously dumb and totally shameless too and sailing >around the world on a lie...! > > >quote... > >"Single handed "La Chica" a 31' ketch (own boat) from >Cape Town to >Cabadelo (Brazil) via St. Helena island (3800 miles). It was the >first >single handed crossing of the South Atlantic by a deaf person. >Sailed "La Chica" from Cabadelo to St. Martin via Ills du >Salut >(2400 miles). >Sailed "La Chica" for three years (95-97) amongst the >Caribbean >islands. Sailed "La Chica" from Port of Spain to Bonaire and >then >directly to Key West (down the Caribbean sea – 1700 miles). >Voyaged >from Key West to Fort Myers Beach then through the Okeechobee >waterway, >joining the ICW at St. Lucy inlet to sail onto Norfolk and thence >to Washington DC and finally Annapolis MD (1500 miles)." > > >"Paul Thompson has become the first deaf sailor to cross the Southern >Alantic Ocean alone, and he wants to sail around the world. > > Well when it came to my turn to fulfill my life's > dream and build my own boat, there was only one boat > for me, a Tahiti Ketch it had to be. However times > had changed and good wood was no longer cheap or > easily available. > Also Hanna's boat had a reputation of being slow if > comfortable. > > Fortunately I have a solid design background and I > > saw the solutions quickly. One - to me steel was a > > logical choice for a heavy displacement boat. Two - > > looking at her lines I could see no reason why she > > should be slow but when I looked at her rig all was > > explained, the boat was completely under canvassed. > > Well I redesigned her to be built in steel and in- > > creased her sail area from Hanna's 450 Sq.Ft. to > > 750 Sq.Ft. on a Cutter rig. > > >La Chica was built over four years from 1989 to 1993. Sometimes >working full time and sometimes not. She was the first boat I >personally built and she was, and still is, a labor of love." >************************************************** > > >It might be tolerabel if you build yourself a non-profit boat after >someone else's drawings out of a book (- even without asking) - but >you better keep it to yourself, not BRAGGING about it over the >internet. > >BUT - when you even claim that you with your > >"solid design-background" > >have RE-DESIGNED and CONSTRUCTED the boat yourself, you have definitly >crossed the border to unprecedented effrontery and made yourself the >ultimate international fool. > >ENDLESS SHAME ON YOU! > >The boat "you have constructed" and called 'la Chica' is described >on pages 274-278 in Weston Farmers book "From My Old Boat Shop, >IMPC Camden Main 1979. >*HE* reconstructed it after the parent boat 'Tahiti' by John G. >Hanna. As Weston Farmer wrote: at the present writing, over 700 >sets of plans of Tahitiana have been sold worldwide ($49). > >Obviously you have used the drawings on pages 275-277 in his book >- but(!)you have the nerve to publish on your site >Weston Farmers drawing (page 276) as your own. >(http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/LaChica%20Drawing.s.jpg). > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 8483|8483|2005-08-06 04:43:12|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Junk rig on Tahitiana..|Hi Gil, All the components for the rig are made but I have not set it up yet. Hopefully I will get the boat on the water this summer (it is still winter here in NZ). My project is going slowly as currently I am stumped for both time and money. A bad situation to be in! However from the end of September onwards I should at least have more time again, even if the money situation has not yet improved and things should start going forward again. The masts are 16 sided tapered steel poles that where made up for me by a company that makes street light poles. If you are interested, send me your address and I would gladly send you a copy of my drawings for the rig and all the details. I will also (should you be interested) send you a copy of the article on junk rigs that I wrote for New Zealand boating. You may email me directly if you wish pault@.... Regards, Paul Thompson Gil G. wrote: > Hello Sir, > > I remembered your post on the Tahitiana yahoo group a while ago. My > boat, if not a Tahitiana, is a very similar design, with only one > chine, but of the same dimentions. It is definitely a Tahiti design. I > actually put the boat back in the water today after sandblasting and > painting the hull. I have no masts however, and this is why I thought > also of the Chinese rig. Since I haven't sailed much, and this is my > first boat, there is nothing for me to unlearn, and ketch or junk rig > would both be new to me. My interest in this rig also came from Tom > Colvin who gave me some advise on painting.. > Have you completed your project? How is it going/working? > Where did you find your masts? > Could you tell me more about reinforcements for unstayed masts? > > Any information would be of great help. > > Thank you, sincerely, > > Gil. > > http://keskydee.com http://planenews.com > PGP Public key at: http://keskydee.com/gil.asc > ICQ: 3310801 E-Gold # 445175 > > > | 8484|8474|2005-08-06 08:13:55|Bill Jaine|Re: AGM batteries|I definitely agree with you, I have to replace the batteries on one boat next year and I think I�ll use the Optima for starting and golfies for house batteries. Have you looked at �non-generator� charging systems, solar/wind etc? Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: 5-Aug-05 11:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries Bill, I've heard good things about the Optima's but after reviewing the material in the previous post where I cite a discussion by the rep from Trojan on how the batteries work etc. It seems that I can get a lot more 'bang' for buck out of the golf cart ones in the long run. Its a function of electrolyte and charging manner and the number of cycles I can get from the golfies, and Optima's cost multiples of what I can get the Trojan's for. My research indicates that if I'm careful and watch my charging (easier when I'm going to be on the boat so much) I can get upwards of 5 to 7 years out of a bank of trojan 105's. That cuts my cost per kilowatt waaaaaaay down. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > Hi Seer, > > > > I've been using Optima AGM batteries for many years now, in fact we used to > sell them, but the company Optima were such a bunch of jerks that we tell > our clients to buy their batteries elsewhere (but still Optima batteries). > > > > I sold the deep cycle blue Optima's to the Canadian military to run their > mobile radar towers and the starting red Optima's for use in their emergency > generating portable containers (the batteries they used to use shook to bits > in 100 hours). > > > > The very limited off-gassing even under severe over-charging, the vibration > resistance and the recovery from a deep discharge made them our battery of > choice. Especially when even hit by a truck they won't leak acid. > > > > The product we put them in is severe service (harsh environment) > uninterruptible power systems. These batteries underwent extensive testing > by the DND and passed with flying colours. > > > > Even though I dislike the company their batteries are great and I would use > them for virtually any application. > > > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: 5-Aug-05 5:26 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries > > > > Alex, > take a look at this site, there's some real eye opening information > about batteries there that I think everyone who uses em would benefit > from reading including a very good discussion of the relative merits > of the different types. > > > HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.txt"http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev batt.txt"HYPERLINK "http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev"http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev > batt.txt > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I note that Solomon technologies tends to specify absorbed glass mat > > (AGM) batteries for their installation too. More costly, but sounds > > safer. Does anyone know what other attributes these batteries may > > have, positive or negative? > > > > Alex > > > > On 5-Aug-05, at 12:48 PM, mkriley@f... wrote: > > > > > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the > > > vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > > > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the batteries in > > > the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments have > > > to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > > > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not > > > use a fan. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island > +bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=fW > JGZIbaeKAZ5yA_UOW3Uw"Vancouver island bc > > HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc > &w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=VVm_- > VRKGeZMANUbW3uv3w"Vancouver island > > HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is > land+bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.si > g=JA8i0Txr2igDOvhJBsgAMA"British columbia canada > > > HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv > er+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=RkTpPb8YZ1HTgnfN > 1f7e4Q"Yacht > > > > > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/or igamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami > boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8485|8431|2005-08-06 08:35:04|seeratlas|Re: Gord!! Where's the PIctures? :)|I thought you were going to update your photo's posting with the latest on your ship. The ones you have up are like 3 years old now :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > What ya talkin' 'bout? Pictures?? What pictures? > Gord > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > hehehe > > Man, you should have some updated photos for postin by now : > > > > seer > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Vancouver island Vancouver British columbia > bc island canada > > Yacht > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8486|8474|2005-08-06 09:19:24|seeratlas|Re: AGM batteries|Yes, I have several good mounting spots for solar arrays, trying to visualize what is essentially a gimbaling frame set up that can tilt them towards the sun, but still be securely locked down flat to keep em from going overboard when a wave sweeps the deck. I think I might very well try one of Brent's KISS like windgen designs on a pole/arch on the stern. Probably won't be much use in the Pac Norwest, but other places on the itenerary will love it. Lastly, since I'll have so much electrical 'stuff' around, might as well go all the way and rig up Brent's idea for a low speed towed generator, in my case, located inside the lazarette with a stuffing box thru the transom just above waterline with an eye to attach the line and towed prop. Heck build it strong enough with big stainless bearings, and it could double as a trailing warp for riding out those rough conditions where you'd rather run off than try to heave too. (I'm a runner myself, been my experience that its lots easier on the ship and crew). Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea, most drogue's I've seen cost a bunch and aren't worth a damn. Would be nice to keep the stern steady and generate lots of juice for lights and the autopilot and recharging at the same time :) Maybe I could rig up two different towed props; one smaller for towing while sailing, and one BIG one for the aforementioned storm conditions. Could be stowed coiled and ready to go in the aft laz, and hooked up and tossed in the drink at a moment's notice. :) Hell, if you used polished stainless props, the flashing spinner effect might even bait the BIG marlin and sailfish into rising up like they do for tournament boats LOL(tho it might also pique the interest of some big sharks :) I knew one guy on a 50 something steel sailboat that had welded in a flush deck mount on the aft deck for a tournament chair which doubled as his captain's seat inside.:)Was a nice stainless based chair and comfy in both locations LOL. I had an small aft cockpit designed into my 54 center cockpit Falcon in which I had a removable fighting chair and step thru transom. With a "Y" back stay, and two side mounted 20 lb down riggers, I caught a lot of big fish off that boat, including a 300 lb ish Halibut...had to shoot him with a 12 gauge before we could bring him in the boat LOL, but that's another story. I guess the short answer was, yes, solar and wind are on the menu :) hehehehe seer If you couldn't tell I'm in a particularly good mood this morning. Found a 60k gvw medium wheelbase CabOver Tractor rig with sleeper for less than $10k US, in good running condition no less. There's a ton of em on the market. Build up or modify an existing dropbed trailer setting up for the bilge keels and skeg and something like that could pull my 43 all over the country pretty cost and time effectively. AND....it finally dawned on me how to inexpensively solve my bow anchor and removable/replaceable bowsprit 'bumper' setup problem, which was really my last significant mechanical engineering problem :) So, for unavoidable, or desirable stays in a marina, I won't get charged for a longer boat than I have, as well as conking all the passers by on the head LOL; and still be able to sub in my big bumper for playing 'tag' with the barges and other boats in the locks and canals of Europe, all while not changing or effecting my anchoring setup. :) life is good. seer - > > Have you looked at "non-generator" charging systems, solar/wind etc? > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: 5-Aug-05 11:15 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries > > > > Bill, > > I've heard good things about the Optima's but after reviewing the > material in the previous post where I cite a discussion by the rep > from Trojan on how the batteries work etc. It seems that I can get a > lot more 'bang' for buck out of the golf cart ones in the long run. > > Its a function of electrolyte and charging manner and the number of > cycles I can get from the golfies, and Optima's cost multiples of what > I can get the Trojan's for. My research indicates that if I'm careful > and watch my charging (easier when I'm going to be on the boat so > much) I can get upwards of 5 to 7 years out of a bank of trojan 105's. > That cuts my cost per kilowatt waaaaaaay down. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > > > > > > > I've been using Optima AGM batteries for many years now, in fact we > used to > > sell them, but the company Optima were such a bunch of jerks that we > tell > > our clients to buy their batteries elsewhere (but still Optima > batteries). > > > > > > > > I sold the deep cycle blue Optima's to the Canadian military to run > their > > mobile radar towers and the starting red Optima's for use in their > emergency > > generating portable containers (the batteries they used to use shook > to bits > > in 100 hours). > > > > > > > > The very limited off-gassing even under severe over-charging, the > vibration > > resistance and the recovery from a deep discharge made them our > battery of > > choice. Especially when even hit by a truck they won't leak acid. > > > > > > > > The product we put them in is severe service (harsh environment) > > uninterruptible power systems. These batteries underwent extensive > testing > > by the DND and passed with flying colours. > > > > > > > > Even though I dislike the company their batteries are great and I > would use > > them for virtually any application. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of seeratlas > > Sent: 5-Aug-05 5:26 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries > > > > > > > > Alex, > > take a look at this site, there's some real eye opening information > > about batteries there that I think everyone who uses em would benefit > > from reading including a very good discussion of the relative merits > > of the different types. > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > "HYPERLINK > "http://members.aol.com/brucedp/evbatt.txt"http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev > batt.txt"HYPERLINK > "http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev"http://members.aol.com/brucedp/ev > > batt.txt > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > I note that Solomon technologies tends to specify absorbed glass mat > > > (AGM) batteries for their installation too. More costly, but sounds > > > safer. Does anyone know what other attributes these batteries may > > > have, positive or negative? > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > On 5-Aug-05, at 12:48 PM, mkriley@f... wrote: > > > > > > > gel batteries will not spill and are waterproof to a degree as the > > > > vent is a one way pressure relief valve that does not nomally open. > > > > I have worked on several racing sailboats that had the > batteries in > > > > the bilge in airtight compartments. One note is the compartments > have > > > > to be made out of polyester as battery acid fumes eat epoxy or wood. > > > > these just were plumbed through pvc pipe to deck vents I would not > > > > use a fan. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island > > > +bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=fW > > JGZIbaeKAZ5yA_UOW3Uw"Vancouver island bc > > > > HYPERLINK > > > "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc > > > &w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=VVm_- > > VRKGeZMANUbW3uv3w"Vancouver island > > > > HYPERLINK > > > "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is > > > land+bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.si > > g=JA8i0Txr2igDOvhJBsgAMA"British columbia canada > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv > > > er+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=RkTpPb8YZ1HTgnfN > > 1f7e4Q"Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > > "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/or > igamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > HYPERLINK > > > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami > > boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > > "HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: > 04/08/2005 > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: > 04/08/2005 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami > boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8487|8487|2005-08-06 11:52:51|kendall|sails|I picked up four sails last week, purchased as a package deal, and it looks like I can use maybe two of them possibly only one, but I'd like to offer the others here, a main/mizzen that's 27' on luff, ~10'3" on the foot, this sail is like new, 1 reef point and 1/2 inch nylon slides on luff, rope or loose footed, four battons. I'd like to get $150/best on that one. Have a jib/genoa that measures 30' on luff, 17' on the foot, has spreader patches no holes/tears under them, piston hanks on it also have a spinnaker, not sure yet whether it will fit on my boat, it's 31 each side and 19' accross very light. both genoa and spin are in very nice shape, but would like an offer on them if someone can use them. Spinnaker has two small patches, and two spots on the seams that are coming loose, I can cover the largest patch with one hand and the largest 'tear' is approximately 4 inches long Hope some of Mr. Swains designs/builders can use them. thanks ken| 8488|8474|2005-08-06 13:21:19|Bill Jaine|Re: AGM batteries|I have the design for the series drogue as tested by the CG, it�s a make it yourself version of the Jordan drogue, came from the CG I believe. HYPERLINK "http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_1.htm"http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com /D_1.htm If anyone wants them let me know and I�ll post/email them Bill Port Hope. Canada ship and crew). Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea, most drogue's I've seen cost a bunch and aren't worth a damn. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8489|8438|2005-08-06 15:31:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|"all stainless, with salt water lubrication" Well you are in trouble already. I won't go into the reasons, because there isn't enough room. It never ceases to amaze me at the lack of respect we give to manufacturers who take a complex idea, and make it appear so simple that everyone thinks they can cobble one together with 90% of the performance at 10% of the cost. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: >> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:38:28 -0300, khooper_fboats >> wrote: >> >> > >> > FWIW I also would be very interested in a variable pitch prop > which >> > could be made by somebody at home with reasonable tools > ("reasonable" >> > in this context means one of those $700 mini mill-lathes I think, > not >> > a crescent wrench and a buzz box. =^). Aping the Hundested > perhaps, if >> > not replicating it. > > As I see it, the clever bit would be to achieve more > than 90 degrees of blade rotation. Hard to do with a > simple crank - but - if you've got a milling machine, > then a coarse helical thread cut into an inner shaft > could be used to rotate the prop blades a full 180. > Either push-pull the inner or the outer shaft to change > pitch. You'd need an anti-rotation pin-and-slot between > the shafts of course. > > I'm currently working on a 'wrench and buzz-box' design > which I'm hoping will give around 130 degrees of rotation > - from around 40 degrees in reverse, through neutral and > forward attack angles to fully 'in-line' for minimum drag. > Because it's a non-precision engineering solution, I'm > running the shafts that hold the blades right across the > hub inside a pair of thick-wall tubes. Blades fully > balanced to reduce operating forces. All stainless with > salt-water lubrication. But will it work ?? > I'll be taking bets shortly .... ;-) > > Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8490|8438|2005-08-06 17:24:46|sae140|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|Well, do say ... one or two reasons will suffice. The water will be able to flow freely around the mechanism so there shouldn't be any crevice corrosion to worry about - that is the obvious concern I presume ... so what else is there ? I know people who have built their own (fixed) props - some out of mild steel, some from stainless - not out of any disrespect or anything like that, but for straightforward reasons of economy, and the sheer love of making your own stuff. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > "all stainless, with salt water lubrication" Well you are in trouble > already. I won't go into the reasons, because there isn't enough room. It > never ceases to amaze me at the lack of respect we give to manufacturers who > take a complex idea, and make it appear so simple that everyone thinks they > can cobble one together with 90% of the performance at 10% of the cost. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sae140" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:51 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > >> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:38:28 -0300, khooper_fboats > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > FWIW I also would be very interested in a variable pitch prop > > which > >> > could be made by somebody at home with reasonable tools > > ("reasonable" > >> > in this context means one of those $700 mini mill-lathes I think, > > not > >> > a crescent wrench and a buzz box. =^). Aping the Hundested > > perhaps, if > >> > not replicating it. > > > > As I see it, the clever bit would be to achieve more > > than 90 degrees of blade rotation. Hard to do with a > > simple crank - but - if you've got a milling machine, > > then a coarse helical thread cut into an inner shaft > > could be used to rotate the prop blades a full 180. > > Either push-pull the inner or the outer shaft to change > > pitch. You'd need an anti-rotation pin-and-slot between > > the shafts of course. > > > > I'm currently working on a 'wrench and buzz-box' design > > which I'm hoping will give around 130 degrees of rotation > > - from around 40 degrees in reverse, through neutral and > > forward attack angles to fully 'in-line' for minimum drag. > > Because it's a non-precision engineering solution, I'm > > running the shafts that hold the blades right across the > > hub inside a pair of thick-wall tubes. Blades fully > > balanced to reduce operating forces. All stainless with > > salt-water lubrication. But will it work ?? > > I'll be taking bets shortly .... ;-) > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8491|8438|2005-08-06 18:51:01|kendall|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Well, do say ... one or two reasons will suffice. > > The water will be able to flow freely around the > mechanism so there shouldn't be any crevice > corrosion to worry about - that is the obvious > concern I presume ... so what else is there ? > > I know people who have built their own (fixed) > props - some out of mild steel, some from > stainless - not out of any disrespect or anything > like that, but for straightforward reasons of > economy, and the sheer love of making your own > stuff. > > Colin That's the best reason for making something yourself, too many people say it cheaper, but fail to factor in the cost of tools they need and have to buy specifically for that project. I think if I were to attempt building one I'd build it out of a cheaper material at first, scrap steel/aluminum so forth, just to prove the design, heck even heavy duty plastic would work for getting the mechanism right, PVC ipe is great for figuring things out, then once I had everything right, run it for a while and next haul out, or after sufficient time has been put on it, tear it down and inspect it to see any unexpected wear that's occured. nothing worse than using the best materials to build a prototype and finding out you realy needed a bushing someplace that's all but impossible to redesign so the rest can be reused. Ken.| 8492|8445|2005-08-06 19:00:51|Dave Kellogg|Re: Zero prop drag|Jim/Colin, I've loaded a sketch of the Gill thrust tube so you have a little better idea of what I'm talking about. The number of opening is still up in the air, on the proto I think I'll try about 3 per side and work on the mechanism. I'm trying a 1/3 ratio to open these doors, meaning the width of the door pivot point is 1/3 the distance of the total opening. If I'm correct the doors will open only when a demand is put on them and the rest of the time will remain closed (or almost closed) when pure sailing and no need to use the power of forward movement to regenerate power to the batteries........anyway, that's the theory, any thoughts. Dave S/V Redeemed jim dorey wrote: On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:08:27 -0300, Dave Kellogg wrote: > The prop that I've chosen is a 3 blade 12 inch that I rescued from a boat > salvage yard here in Florida. It has an agressive pitch and was once > used on an > inboard ChrisCraft power boat. What led me to this prop is that it > appears to > have a great ability to catch water to regenerate, there in lays the > problem. In > order to use this for regenerative quality the "gills" open with no > demand from > the prop to pull the water, that's what I'm working on now, any > suggestions or > thoughts would be openly accepted. so, is somethin like a torpedo tube on a sub? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8493|8453|2005-08-06 19:23:24|luis_nin_estevez|Re: Tahiti and Tahitiana - the differens and the rascal !|Hi Paul, Thank you for your post. It seemed that something unvoluntary wrong and so obvious as you mentioned, occurred. Under the law of my country that would be considered as "impossible crime". Good luck with your project! Regards from Uruguay, South America Luis --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Hi, > > Whoever you are. Thank you for bringing the problem with the image > (lines plan) to my attention. The page was done for me by a friend who > is not into sailing and so would not have noticed that there was > problem. I should have but did not so the fault is solely mine. However > is was an innocent mistake. I have removed the image and it will stay > removed until I get the opportunity to scan my drawing and put it up. > > So once again I thank you. I just wish that you could have brought the > matter to my attention in a more seemly manner. My email address is on > the site, which I am sure you are aware of as you seem to have studied > the site quite thoroughly. > > Regards, > > Paul Thompson > > hjrndd wrote: > > >http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm > > > >Paul T! > > > >Being deaf - and obviously dumb and totally shameless too and sailing > >around the world on a lie...! > > > > > >quote... > > > >"Single handed "La Chica" a 31' ketch (own boat) from > >Cape Town to > >Cabadelo (Brazil) via St. Helena island (3800 miles). It was the > >first > >single handed crossing of the South Atlantic by a deaf person. > >Sailed "La Chica" from Cabadelo to St. Martin via Ills du > >Salut > >(2400 miles). > >Sailed "La Chica" for three years (95-97) amongst the > >Caribbean > >islands. Sailed "La Chica" from Port of Spain to Bonaire and > >then > >directly to Key West (down the Caribbean sea – 1700 miles). > >Voyaged > >from Key West to Fort Myers Beach then through the Okeechobee > >waterway, > >joining the ICW at St. Lucy inlet to sail onto Norfolk and thence > >to Washington DC and finally Annapolis MD (1500 miles)." > > > > > >"Paul Thompson has become the first deaf sailor to cross the Southern > >Alantic Ocean alone, and he wants to sail around the world. > > > > Well when it came to my turn to fulfill my life's > > dream and build my own boat, there was only one boat > > for me, a Tahiti Ketch it had to be. However times > > had changed and good wood was no longer cheap or > > easily available. > > Also Hanna's boat had a reputation of being slow if > > comfortable. > > > > Fortunately I have a solid design background and I > > > > saw the solutions quickly. One - to me steel was a > > > > logical choice for a heavy displacement boat. Two - > > > > looking at her lines I could see no reason why she > > > > should be slow but when I looked at her rig all was > > > > explained, the boat was completely under canvassed. > > > > Well I redesigned her to be built in steel and in- > > > > creased her sail area from Hanna's 450 Sq.Ft. to > > > > 750 Sq.Ft. on a Cutter rig. > > > > > >La Chica was built over four years from 1989 to 1993. Sometimes > >working full time and sometimes not. She was the first boat I > >personally built and she was, and still is, a labor of love." > >************************************************** > > > > > >It might be tolerabel if you build yourself a non-profit boat after > >someone else's drawings out of a book (- even without asking) - but > >you better keep it to yourself, not BRAGGING about it over the > >internet. > > > >BUT - when you even claim that you with your > > > >"solid design-background" > > > >have RE-DESIGNED and CONSTRUCTED the boat yourself, you have definitly > >crossed the border to unprecedented effrontery and made yourself the > >ultimate international fool. > > > >ENDLESS SHAME ON YOU! > > > >The boat "you have constructed" and called 'la Chica' is described > >on pages 274-278 in Weston Farmers book "From My Old Boat Shop, > >IMPC Camden Main 1979. > >*HE* reconstructed it after the parent boat 'Tahiti' by John G. > >Hanna. As Weston Farmer wrote: at the present writing, over 700 > >sets of plans of Tahitiana have been sold worldwide ($49). > > > >Obviously you have used the drawings on pages 275-277 in his book > >- but(!)you have the nerve to publish on your site > >Weston Farmers drawing (page 276) as your own. > >(http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/LaChica%20Drawing.s.jpg). > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8494|8453|2005-08-07 01:57:27|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Tahiti and Tahitiana - the differens and the rascal !|Hi Luis, Thank you for your kind comment. It makes me feel a little better about that whole thing. I have also removed my comment as to it being my redesign because while I stand by what I said, it is not something that I feel strongly about and I do not want anything to detract from what I am actually trying to do, namely to promote and assist the deaf community. Anything that gets in the way of that I will discard. By the way, how is your own project going? Regards, Paul luis_nin_estevez wrote: >Hi Paul, >Thank you for your post. It seemed that something unvoluntary wrong >and so obvious as you mentioned, occurred. >Under the law of my country that would be considered as "impossible >crime". >Good luck with your project! >Regards from Uruguay, South America >Luis > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" >wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Whoever you are. Thank you for bringing the problem with the image >>(lines plan) to my attention. The page was done for me by a friend >> >> >who > > >>is not into sailing and so would not have noticed that there was >>problem. I should have but did not so the fault is solely mine. >> >> >However > > >>is was an innocent mistake. I have removed the image and it will >> >> >stay > > >>removed until I get the opportunity to scan my drawing and put it >> >> >up. > > >>So once again I thank you. I just wish that you could have brought >> >> >the > > >>matter to my attention in a more seemly manner. My email address >> >> >is on > > >>the site, which I am sure you are aware of as you seem to have >> >> >studied > > >>the site quite thoroughly. >> >>Regards, >> >>Paul Thompson >> >>hjrndd wrote: >> >> >> >>>http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/AboutLaChica.htm >>> >>>Paul T! >>> >>>Being deaf - and obviously dumb and totally shameless too and >>> >>> >sailing > > >>>around the world on a lie...! >>> >>> >>>quote... >>> >>>"Single handed "La Chica" a 31' ketch (own boat) from >>>Cape Town to >>>Cabadelo (Brazil) via St. Helena island (3800 miles). It was the >>>first >>>single handed crossing of the South Atlantic by a deaf person. >>>Sailed "La Chica" from Cabadelo to St. Martin via Ills du >>>Salut >>>(2400 miles). >>>Sailed "La Chica" for three years (95-97) amongst the >>>Caribbean >>>islands. Sailed "La Chica" from Port of Spain to Bonaire and >>>then >>>directly to Key West (down the Caribbean sea – 1700 miles). >>>Voyaged >>> >>> >>>from Key West to Fort Myers Beach then through the Okeechobee >> >> >>>waterway, >>>joining the ICW at St. Lucy inlet to sail onto Norfolk and thence >>>to Washington DC and finally Annapolis MD (1500 miles)." >>> >>> >>>"Paul Thompson has become the first deaf sailor to cross the >>> >>> >Southern > > >>>Alantic Ocean alone, and he wants to sail around the world. >>> >>> Well when it came to my turn to fulfill my life's >>> dream and build my own boat, there was only one boat >>> for me, a Tahiti Ketch it had to be. However times >>> had changed and good wood was no longer cheap or >>> easily available. >>> Also Hanna's boat had a reputation of being slow if >>> comfortable. >>> >>> Fortunately I have a solid design background and I >>> >>> saw the solutions quickly. One - to me steel was a >>> >>> logical choice for a heavy displacement boat. Two - >>> >>> looking at her lines I could see no reason why she >>> >>> should be slow but when I looked at her rig all was >>> >>> explained, the boat was completely under canvassed. >>> >>> Well I redesigned her to be built in steel and in- >>> >>> creased her sail area from Hanna's 450 Sq.Ft. to >>> >>> 750 Sq.Ft. on a Cutter rig. >>> >>> >>>La Chica was built over four years from 1989 to 1993. Sometimes >>>working full time and sometimes not. She was the first boat I >>>personally built and she was, and still is, a labor of love." >>>************************************************** >>> >>> >>>It might be tolerabel if you build yourself a non-profit boat >>> >>> >after > > >>>someone else's drawings out of a book (- even without asking) - >>> >>> >but > > >>>you better keep it to yourself, not BRAGGING about it over the >>>internet. >>> >>>BUT - when you even claim that you with your >>> >>>"solid design-background" >>> >>>have RE-DESIGNED and CONSTRUCTED the boat yourself, you have >>> >>> >definitly > > >>>crossed the border to unprecedented effrontery and made yourself >>> >>> >the > > >>>ultimate international fool. >>> >>>ENDLESS SHAME ON YOU! >>> >>>The boat "you have constructed" and called 'la Chica' is described >>>on pages 274-278 in Weston Farmers book "From My Old Boat Shop, >>>IMPC Camden Main 1979. >>>*HE* reconstructed it after the parent boat 'Tahiti' by John G. >>>Hanna. As Weston Farmer wrote: at the present writing, over 700 >>>sets of plans of Tahitiana have been sold worldwide ($49). >>> >>>Obviously you have used the drawings on pages 275-277 in his book >>>- but(!)you have the nerve to publish on your site >>>Weston Farmers drawing (page 276) as your own. >>>(http://www.sailingwithoutasound.com/LaChica%20Drawing.s.jpg). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> >>> >unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 8495|8431|2005-08-07 12:05:26|gschnell|Re: Gord!! Where's the PIctures? :)|Your right, seer. Just never seem to find the time. A friend just shot a bunch of pics of the interior systems, but I haven't received them yet. I always seem to have more important tasks waiting than posting the pics. This week I am building two engines and trying to put the finishing touches on the prop drive system. I'll put pics back on the list. Gord seeratlas wrote: > I thought you were going to update your photo's posting with the > latest on your ship. The ones you have up are like 3 years old now :) > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > What ya talkin' 'bout? Pictures?? What pictures? > > Gord > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > hehehe > > > Man, you should have some updated photos for postin by now : > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > > Vancouver island Vancouver British columbia > > bc island canada > > > > Yacht > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island Vancouver British columbia bc island canada Yacht > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8496|8431|2005-08-07 12:44:59|seeratlas|Re: Gord!! Where's the PIctures? :)|Great :) In any event I think I'm going to be able to break loose in September and come up there and hunt you down :) I want to see this thing for myself :) Beers' are on me. :) Have to do a bunch of measurements and some planning regarding the garage where I plan to build and need some time off :( Man has it been hot in the midwest this summer ... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Your right, seer. Just never seem to find the time. > A friend just shot a bunch of pics of the interior systems, but I > haven't received them yet. > I always seem to have more important tasks waiting than posting the > pics. This week I am building two engines and trying to put the > finishing touches on the prop drive system. > I'll put pics back on the list. > Gord > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > I thought you were going to update your photo's posting with the > > latest on your ship. The ones you have up are like 3 years old now :) > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > > What ya talkin' 'bout? Pictures?? What pictures? > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > > hehehe > > > > Man, you should have some updated photos for postin by now : > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > > > > Vancouver island Vancouver British columbia > > > bc island canada > > > > > > Yacht > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Vancouver island Vancouver British columbia > bc island canada > > Yacht > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8497|8438|2005-08-07 19:59:16|jim dorey|Re: Adjustable Pitch Prop|On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:05:50 -0300, khooper_fboats wrote: > >> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/sKaar/oddstuff/variable-pitch-prop.jpg > > > Brilliant, thanks...could we not leave the springs out altogether if > we did not mind a little bit of play? > > --Hoop sure, if you use a fork and bearing that pulls as well as it pushes, it's or returning to neutral position. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8498|8474|2005-08-08 04:29:50|Earl Burgess|Re: AGM batteries|Would certainly be interested in a DIY version. Regards, Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Jaine" To: Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 1:20 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: AGM batteries > I have the design for the series drogue as tested by the CG, it's a make it > yourself version of the Jordan drogue, came from the CG I believe. > > > > HYPERLINK > "http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_1.htm"http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com > /D_1.htm > > > > If anyone wants them let me know and I'll post/email them > > > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > ship and crew). Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea, most > drogue's I've seen cost a bunch and aren't worth a damn. > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8499|8499|2005-08-08 06:34:26|ed_lithgow|Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Hi all Further to the current discussion on drogues, I've seen a reference somewhere to the use of builders bags as a cheap/free para sea anchor. (I think it was in the most recent/current edition of Adlard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing). These are used to deliver sand or agreggate to smallish building/landscaping sites (in the UK at least) and have a couple of strong webbing straps forming handles and going right round the bag, by which they are craned off the lorry (truck). As I recall they were successfully used by a multihull in storm conditions. I dont know/can't remember if it was one only or more in series. For drogues how about cones cut from plastic bottles (nested for stowage?). Or trimmed traffic cones? (We have a lot of stray traffic cones in heavy orange polypropylene, different sizes) The latter at least would probably be sufficiently robust to use the stack as a fender. Regds, Ed Lithgow| 8500|8431|2005-08-08 14:51:15|..|Re: Doing Origami|Jon, The program plyboats would be ok for the hull you are working on. Geoff That would work fine if I was building a sail boat but I want to build a Sternwheeler with a flat bottem. Have been playing with the Hulls Program and the freeship as well as looked at the Yago and saved it. For me it is a lurning curve, Program development(Freeship) and time. On Hulls it is very time cosuming to go back through and make shure all the ploted points are true when doing flat bottem predomanently straitsided hulls with 8 chines to get hull and deck to work on freeship to my likeing. but I am having fun and think Brents book can still offer a lot and will be wanting a copy soon. Jon --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8501|8499|2005-08-08 20:48:12|brentswain38|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|I tried a cheap parachute in a gale just north of hawaii a couple of years ago. Altho the chute looked shiny like nylon as did the shrouds, it was cottton and shredded in less than an hour.It charred instead of melting, under a flame. This would be a good gest of the material before trusting one. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > Hi all > > Further to the current discussion on drogues, I've seen a reference > somewhere to the use of builders bags as a cheap/free para sea > anchor. (I think it was in the most recent/current edition of Adlard > Coles Heavy Weather Sailing). These are used to deliver sand or > agreggate to smallish building/landscaping sites (in the UK at > least) and have a couple of strong webbing straps forming handles > and going right round the bag, by which they are craned off the > lorry (truck). > > As I recall they were successfully used by a multihull in storm > conditions. I dont know/can't remember if it was one only or more in > series. > > For drogues how about cones cut from plastic bottles (nested for > stowage?). Or trimmed traffic cones? (We have a lot of stray traffic > cones in heavy orange polypropylene, different sizes) The latter at > least would probably be sufficiently robust to use the stack as a > fender. > > Regds, Ed Lithgow | 8502|1058|2005-08-08 20:55:12|troller10|Re: Steel list for 40ft boat|Alex, Did you find out about the Twin Keel parts? If you did then would you please post them. Thanks, Brien --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie" > wrote: > > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > > > Hull: > > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > > > Deck: > > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > > > Stiffeners: > > 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle > > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > > > Keel, single -- I'll have to ask Brent next month about twin keel > > parts; he is somewhere out in the middle of the S. Pacific right > > now, heading towards Christmas Island in his 31 foot twin keeler -- > > lucky guy!) > > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > > > Twin keel uses 2.5" shaft steel--not pipe-- this I do know! > > > > The following items can be pre-built before the hull even takes > > shape, and require mostly stainless steel, or aluminum for hatches. > > The materials for these would all be based on plans in the book: > > Anchor winch (ss) > > mast tabernacle (ss) > > bow roller (ss) > > anchor winch handle pad (ss) > > mooring bitts (3, made of pipe, plate, and rod) > > cleats (ss rod) > > stanchions (ss pipe, 1", I think) > > chainplates (ss plate) > > chockliners (3/8" ss rod, and some 1/2" for bow and stern chockliners) > > > > SS ball valves - 2-1.5", 2-3/4" > > aluminum for forehatch > > ss doubler plates below mooring bits > > ss rod and pipe for gudgeons and pintles > > ss for self steering > > > > plexiglass or lexan for portlights in cabinsides and top of ph > > > > The dimensions for everything that can be prebuilt are noted on the > > plans and in the book -- it is really a matter of going through it > > all and making up a master list, then keeping your eyes peeled for > > good scrounge deals. *When* I start my boat (famous last words), > > I'll try and keep track of my list, which I'll share with the group. > > Some of you may be finished your boats by the time I get started, > > judging by the way things are going around here (house renovations!). > > > > > > > Alex, > > I've only put the hull together so far but, even if you measure off the plans > you'll notice that the "lower hull plate" IE: the piece you add to the bottom is > not 12' but 22' and change long and i,m not so sure about those stringers > length either... and the framing on the hard chine??? is it to be spaced about > 4' apart? > John another 40' builder | 8503|8499|2005-08-08 21:07:32|troller10|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Jack from the Island Breeze showed me how to use a 15" Truck tire chained to a Swivil then 300 feet of 1" dia nylon line and another Swivil then branched to both stern posts. Saved my arse when my jib tore in half and the Autopilot stripped out. 40 footers on the stern for 5 days. I would have breached for sure. A trip that would have ended up a disaster turned into the most fantastic sailing experience I ever had. Seeing that Tire leap out of the water like a hooked marlin just as my 48 foot ketch slid down a monster wave was amazing. Thanks Jack --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I tried a cheap parachute in a gale just north of hawaii a couple of years ago. Altho the > chute looked shiny like nylon as did the shrouds, it was cottton and shredded in less than > an hour.It charred instead of melting, under a flame. This would be a good gest of the > material before trusting one. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > > Hi all > > > > Further to the current discussion on drogues, I've seen a reference > > somewhere to the use of builders bags as a cheap/free para sea > > anchor. (I think it was in the most recent/current edition of Adlard > > Coles Heavy Weather Sailing). These are used to deliver sand or > > agreggate to smallish building/landscaping sites (in the UK at > > least) and have a couple of strong webbing straps forming handles > > and going right round the bag, by which they are craned off the > > lorry (truck). > > > > As I recall they were successfully used by a multihull in storm > > conditions. I dont know/can't remember if it was one only or more in > > series. > > > > For drogues how about cones cut from plastic bottles (nested for > > stowage?). Or trimmed traffic cones? (We have a lot of stray traffic > > cones in heavy orange polypropylene, different sizes) The latter at > > least would probably be sufficiently robust to use the stack as a > > fender. > > > > Regds, Ed Lithgow | 8504|8499|2005-08-08 21:22:16|seeratlas|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Brent, Got into a little brouhaha over on the electric boat forum when someone asked me about why I was so insistent upon wanting two medium motors for redundancy instead of one giant one. I described that little storm I got into, which brought up the whole topic of blue water heavy weather boat handling, including drogues. I'd be interested in what YOUR thinking is on running while trailing a warp (which is my choice) vs. drogues from the stern (all the ones I ever tried were crap, I think a chain on a truck tire would've done better); vs. lying ahull to a sea anchor, which I think is in most boats a VERY bad idea unless there is no option due to a lee shore or some other reason you cannot run... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I tried a cheap parachute in a gale just north of hawaii a couple of years ago. Altho the > chute looked shiny like nylon as did the shrouds, it was cottton and shredded in less than > an hour.It charred instead of melting, under a flame. This would be a good gest of the > material before trusting one. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > > Hi all > > > > Further to the current discussion on drogues, I've seen a reference > > somewhere to the use of builders bags as a cheap/free para sea > > anchor. (I think it was in the most recent/current edition of Adlard > > Coles Heavy Weather Sailing). These are used to deliver sand or > > agreggate to smallish building/landscaping sites (in the UK at > > least) and have a couple of strong webbing straps forming handles > > and going right round the bag, by which they are craned off the > > lorry (truck). > > > > As I recall they were successfully used by a multihull in storm > > conditions. I dont know/can't remember if it was one only or more in > > series. > > > > For drogues how about cones cut from plastic bottles (nested for > > stowage?). Or trimmed traffic cones? (We have a lot of stray traffic > > cones in heavy orange polypropylene, different sizes) The latter at > > least would probably be sufficiently robust to use the stack as a > > fender. > > > > Regds, Ed Lithgow | 8505|8499|2005-08-08 21:24:24|seeratlas|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|I should have read a little further :) I was just thinking about a tire and chain setup LOL. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "troller10" wrote: > Jack from the Island Breeze showed me how to use a 15" Truck tire > chained to a Swivil then 300 feet of 1" dia nylon line and another > Swivil then branched to both stern posts. > > Saved my arse when my jib tore in half and the Autopilot stripped out. > > 40 footers on the stern for 5 days. I would have breached for sure. > A trip that would have ended up a disaster turned into the most > fantastic sailing experience I ever had. > > Seeing that Tire leap out of the water like a hooked marlin just as my > 48 foot ketch slid down a monster wave was amazing. > > Thanks Jack > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I tried a cheap parachute in a gale just north of hawaii a couple of > years ago. Altho the > > chute looked shiny like nylon as did the shrouds, it was cottton and > shredded in less than > > an hour.It charred instead of melting, under a flame. This would be > a good gest of the > > material before trusting one. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" > wrote: > > > Hi all > > > > > > Further to the current discussion on drogues, I've seen a reference > > > somewhere to the use of builders bags as a cheap/free para sea > > > anchor. (I think it was in the most recent/current edition of Adlard > > > Coles Heavy Weather Sailing). These are used to deliver sand or > > > agreggate to smallish building/landscaping sites (in the UK at > > > least) and have a couple of strong webbing straps forming handles > > > and going right round the bag, by which they are craned off the > > > lorry (truck). > > > > > > As I recall they were successfully used by a multihull in storm > > > conditions. I dont know/can't remember if it was one only or more in > > > series. > > > > > > For drogues how about cones cut from plastic bottles (nested for > > > stowage?). Or trimmed traffic cones? (We have a lot of stray traffic > > > cones in heavy orange polypropylene, different sizes) The latter at > > > least would probably be sufficiently robust to use the stack as a > > > fender. > > > > > > Regds, Ed Lithgow | 8506|8499|2005-08-08 22:59:28|Michael Casling|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Jack are you saying that one tyre was sufficient with the chain, to provide a satisfactory sea anchor ? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: troller10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors Jack from the Island Breeze showed me how to use a 15" Truck tire chained to a Swivil then 300 feet of 1" dia nylon line and another Swivil then branched to both stern posts. Saved my arse when my jib tore in half and the Autopilot stripped out. 40 footers on the stern for 5 days. I would have breached for sure. A trip that would have ended up a disaster turned into the most fantastic sailing experience I ever had. Seeing that Tire leap out of the water like a hooked marlin just as my 48 foot ketch slid down a monster wave was amazing. Thanks Jack [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8507|8499|2005-08-09 12:47:59|troller10|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Sorry for the misunderstanding. This is not Jack from the Island Breeze. Jack showed me how to set up the Tire chain and Rope rig. My Name is Brien, from the Fanfare. But, yes one tire was sufficient for an 18 ton shallow draft ketch with full keel. I believe the key was the length of line and the fact that the nylon was able to stretch. When the stern was rising and the bow was still in the trough the line would stretch tight and keep the boat on course. As the stern came over the top of the wave and the bow was then pulled forward, the line would relax and let the stern correct itself. The line was tight enough that it never went slack. I still had to man the wheel but I only had to make minor corrections. It might have helped it I had added 10 or 20 lbs of weight about 50ft up from the tire. (A coffee can full of lead would have sufficed, I'd say). Previously I made a run down wind off the Coast of Northern California without a Wrap and it was exhausting. And that was in waves half the size. I did not mean to imply that I was Jack from the Island Breeze and to anybody thought I was, let me say that I would never pretend to be a sailor of his experience or expertise. I just wanted to make sure that the credit was given where credit was due. Brien H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Jack are you saying that one tyre was sufficient with the chain, to provide a satisfactory sea anchor ? > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: troller10 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:07 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors > > > Jack from the Island Breeze showed me how to use a 15" Truck tire > chained to a Swivil then 300 feet of 1" dia nylon line and another > Swivil then branched to both stern posts. > > Saved my arse when my jib tore in half and the Autopilot stripped out. > > 40 footers on the stern for 5 days. I would have breached for sure. > A trip that would have ended up a disaster turned into the most > fantastic sailing experience I ever had. > > Seeing that Tire leap out of the water like a hooked marlin just as my > 48 foot ketch slid down a monster wave was amazing. > > Thanks Jack > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8508|8508|2005-08-09 18:42:48|seeratlas|Commercial site using Electric Drive worth a look|Alex and anyone else still thinking about small dc motor for manuevering etc., this firm has done a LOT of it, using what appears to be easily duplicable installations. Lots of pictures and tech info. seer http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml| 8509|8431|2005-08-09 22:04:59|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Doing Origami|Hulls will do what plyboat will do for the most part but if done in steel the Origami way a spoon bow could be made a role in the bottem coming up to the stern and a role between the bottem and sides at the stern end. Looking at a overall of 30' X8' on the flatt of the bottem with 9' at top of sides and the deck at 9'-8" to where the rub rail attaches to a 4" strap the inner edge of the deck would be 8' with a 6" rise and a wood cabin. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > Jon, > The program plyboats would be ok for the hull you are working on. > Geoff > > That would work fine if I was building a sail boat but I want to > build a Sternwheeler with a flat bottem. Have been playing with the > Hulls Program and the freeship as well as looked at the Yago and > saved it. For me it is a lurning curve, Program development (Freeship) > and time. On Hulls it is very time cosuming to go back through and > make shure all the ploted points are true when doing flat bottem > predomanently straitsided hulls with 8 chines to get hull and deck to > work on freeship to my likeing. but I am having fun and think Brents > book can still offer a lot and will be wanting a copy soon. > > Jon > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8510|8510|2005-08-10 14:40:40|seeratlas|$818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm :) seer| 8511|8510|2005-08-10 15:00:01|thomas gritton|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|This may be old news to you but Glen-L has an EV drive using a outboard lower unit plus dc motor. I built one of these a couple of years ago for a 20 ft. picnic boat. It worked very well and eliminated the need for a rudder ,shaft, and boxes . I used a golf cart motor and a lower off a 35 Merc . The whole deal cost me about $300 including a surplus 400amp controller and reverse switch. I bought used car batteries at the salvage yard for $10.00 ea out of late model wrecks. While they didn't last like deep cycles they cost about 15% of new ones. I sold the boat last year but talked to the owners son over the weekend and he's still happy , only had to replace drive belt once. I'm in the process of starting a river skiff for the smaller lakes and rivers in my area and intend to use the configuration again. regards ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] $818.00 Etek boat setup. :) http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm :) seer ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> GetGet> fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8512|8512|2005-08-10 16:17:50|richytill|Testing testing|Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet last weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. The Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands strewn in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well found canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and sorted through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 year conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when imersed in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I typically transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel boat does. Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to set a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and we look forward to many more trips to come. rt| 8513|8510|2005-08-10 17:50:13|seeratlas|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Not old hat but yes, I did look at the Glen L system. Fine for a small er boat:). What is useful about the site and the other one I posted about above is the wealth of SOLID information that is available there including the description of just what is needed. I've been going round and round with the electricboat group over how to configure a system. Could've saved a lot of time if I had found these sites or been referred to them sooner. One interesting thing that did come up, is that regeneration isn't worth the effort, i.e. everyone is always pointing out that prop design favors propulsion and NOT regeneration of power, i.e. freewheeling while sailing. Dunno how often I've come across this sentiment expressed with 'authority'. Then low and behold, you get some information from people that do it on a regular basis and for the very small cost of slightly better equiptment, the 'real world' effects prove out to be very valuable over time, Average being about 3hrs regenerating for every one hour electric powering over time. Hell, that's not bad, especially for someone who is powering out of the slip and into the channel then sailing the rest of the day, then powering back in for a few minutes. Too many 'experts' who have never been in a boat....so what else is new :) heheh. Back to your point, that Glen L design is interesting. Makes you wonder if perhaps some kind of well could be rigged up such that a long shaft version could be rigged with an electric powerhead above waterline. Would sure make a simple and cost effective quick install for 'inboard' power, specially since the vertical driveshaft could be run thru a cutlass/seal etc. lots of fun daydreaming. For myself, I'm rapidly closing in on my final design giving me around 32 shaft hp continuous and up to nearly twice that for ten minute emergencies. Silent electric Cruise at slower speed and thus far lower power requirements, say 6 or 7 hp should be a rather remarkable number of hours. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "thomas gritton" wrote: > This may be old news to you but Glen-L has an EV drive using a outboard lower unit plus dc motor. I built one of these a couple of years ago for a 20 ft. picnic boat. It worked very well and eliminated the need for a rudder ,shaft, and boxes . I used a golf cart motor and a lower off a 35 Merc . The whole deal cost me about $300 including a surplus 400amp controller and reverse switch. I bought used car batteries at the salvage yard for $10.00 ea out of late model wrecks. While they didn't last like deep cycles they cost about 15% of new ones. I sold the boat last year but talked to the owners son over the weekend and he's still happy , only had to replace drive belt once. > > I'm in the process of starting a river skiff for the smaller lakes and rivers in my area and intend to use the configuration again. > > regards > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:39 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] $818.00 Etek boat setup. :) > > > http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/sailboatkit.htm > > :) > > seer > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > GetGet> fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8514|8512|2005-08-10 17:55:42|seeratlas|Re: Testing testing|Doesn't get any better :) Congrats:) I remember the first time I saw that place from the bottom side during near full flow- in a powerboat capable of 30 knots... "You gotta be kiddin!!!!" (or something slightly more colorfull to same effect :) heheheheh). To 'sluice' it in a sailboat? now that must have been something :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet last > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. The > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands strewn > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well found > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and sorted > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 year > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when imersed > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I typically > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel boat > does. > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to set > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and we > look forward to many more trips to come. > > rt | 8515|8499|2005-08-10 19:59:31|bobandmilly|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Would you share with us more detail of Jack's advice--how he attached tire to swivel, swivel size, what kind of rope, will 3 strand unlay under the strains, etc. Bob Salmons| 8516|8499|2005-08-11 10:49:31|Bruce Hallman|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|On 8/8/05, ed_lithgow wrote: > cheap/free para sea anchor? Phil Bolger makes a very compelling argument that simply dropping your anchor and the full length of anchor chain serves as a most effective drogue. The reason being that it gets down into the depths of the ocean not effected by surface drift.| 8517|8499|2005-08-11 12:21:07|Michael Casling|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Yes I agree. I have a couple of canvas type sea anchors / drogues that I made and I will make a couple more. The beauty of these is they can be stashed down below. But to back up these units I have always considered the anchor, and now I think I will also include two tyres. I can paint them and attach them to the aft railing. They could also serve as fenders when moored alongside a rocky sea wall. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Hallman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:49 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors On 8/8/05, ed_lithgow wrote: > cheap/free para sea anchor? Phil Bolger makes a very compelling argument that simply dropping your anchor and the full length of anchor chain serves as a most effective drogue. The reason being that it gets down into the depths of the ocean not effected by surface drift. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8518|8499|2005-08-11 15:00:14|seeratlas|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Surprisingly few sailors I've seen have a suitable anchor/chain and rode equipped for deployment at the stern. The debate still rages as to whether it is best in survival conditions to lie bow to a drogue or sea anchor facing into the oncoming waves, and running before the waves trailing a drogue. My own feeling is that at least in the boats I've owned, running was always preferable as long as I had steerage way. For a boat of any size the loads on the drogue can be enormous. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > On 8/8/05, ed_lithgow wrote: > > cheap/free para sea anchor? > > Phil Bolger makes a very compelling argument that > simply dropping your anchor and the full length of anchor > chain serves as a most effective drogue. The reason > being that it gets down into the depths of the ocean > not effected by surface drift. | 8519|8499|2005-08-11 16:51:44|troller10|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Jack pointed from his boat deck to a tire lying on the shore and said something in the order of.... "Take that tire there and attach it to about 300 feet of line and drag it behind your boat." I happened to have two bronze swivels that were previously used on salmon seiners between purse lines to keep the lines from kinking up. (they were about 6 inches long and 1 1/2 in diameter). I put a few wraps of 1/2 galvanized chain around the tire and attached one of the swivels to it with a beefy stainless steel shackle, (and wired the shackle tight). I spliced a galvanized eyelet into both ends of a 300' length of 1" dia three braided nylon line, (soft braid). I attached one end of the line to the swivel with another shackle. Then I shackled the opposite end of the line to a second swivel. On the free end of the second swivel I shackled two lines of the same type as the previous line, in the same way as the previous method. One line I tied to the Port stern post and the other line I tied to the starboard stern post. These two lines were about 12 feet in length each. I hope this description is adequate. I have found that once someone gives you an idea of a concept, you are the best judge as to how to implement the final design. Every boat is going to be different and only you know the tendencies your boat has to broach, or pitch and weather or not the system you are using is adequate to correct the tendencies of your boat. The system I employed worked well for me under the conditions I experienced, but that does not mean that the same system will be adequate for your boat under the same or different conditions. Brien H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "bobandmilly" wrote: > Would you share with us more detail of Jack's advice--how he attached > tire to swivel, swivel size, what kind of rope, will 3 strand unlay > under the strains, etc. > > Bob Salmons | 8520|8499|2005-08-11 23:56:58|ed_lithgow|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Hi all I'm strictly armchair on this topic, but the consensus generalisation (as perhaps represented in the Adlard Coles book, which gives a number of anecdotal "case studies") seems to be that tyres often dont work very well, because they dont generate a great deal of drag for their bulk, and because they tend to porpoise and surf. There are of course infinite variations in storm conditions, vessel and rigs possible, one of which might be use in combination with an anchor and its rode, so mileage will vary. I THINK the book was positive about the use of plough-type anchors as drogues, (hydodynamically stable and generated appreciable drag). Regds, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Yes I agree. > I have a couple of canvas type sea anchors / drogues that I made and I will make a couple more. The beauty of these is they can be stashed down below. But to back up these units I have always considered the anchor, and now I think I will also include two tyres. I can paint them and attach them to the aft railing. They could also serve as fenders when moored alongside a rocky sea wall. > > Michael > ----- | 8521|8499|2005-08-12 07:36:12|Bill Jaine|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|From what I�ve read, The parachute from the bow literally stops the boat dead, nose into the seas and puts a lot of strain on the equipment. Whereas the series drogue from the stern, (when at the correct length) slows the boat down and, allows the boat some surge within the elasticity of the rode and reduces the strain on the boat and equipment. Issues are keeping them in the water, reducing the strain on the equipment and recovering them afterwards. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ed_lithgow Sent: 11-Aug-05 11:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors Hi all I'm strictly armchair on this topic, but the consensus generalisation (as perhaps represented in the Adlard Coles book, which gives a number of anecdotal "case studies") seems to be that tyres often dont work very well, because they dont generate a great deal of drag for their bulk, and because they tend to porpoise and surf. There are of course infinite variations in storm conditions, vessel and rigs possible, one of which might be use in combination with an anchor and its rode, so mileage will vary. I THINK the book was positive about the use of plough-type anchors as drogues, (hydodynamically stable and generated appreciable drag). Regds, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Yes I agree. > I have a couple of canvas type sea anchors / drogues that I made and I will make a couple more. The beauty of these is they can be stashed down below. But to back up these units I have always considered the anchor, and now I think I will also include two tyres. I can paint them and attach them to the aft railing. They could also serve as fenders when moored alongside a rocky sea wall. > > Michael > ----- To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island+bc&w1=Vancouver+island +bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=fW JGZIbaeKAZ5yA_UOW3Uw"Vancouver island bc HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=Vancouver+island+bc &w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=VVm_- VRKGeZMANUbW3uv3w"Vancouver island HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=Vancouver+is land+bc&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.si g=JA8i0Txr2igDOvhJBsgAMA"British columbia canada HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=Vancouver+island+bc&w2=Vancouv er+island&w3=British+columbia+canada&w4=Yacht&c=4&s=87&.sig=RkTpPb8YZ1HTgnfN 1f7e4Q"Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 04/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8522|8499|2005-08-12 11:34:52|troller10|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Ed, I agree with you to a degree. I my case all I wanted to use the dragging tire for, was to help me keep a course, (of which it did a wonderful job.) As a matter of fact the time I did deploy the tire I really did not slow down at all. The tire did have a tendency to come up out of the water, but the drag was still able to keep the stern from broaching. The tire is definitely not going to keep you off of a lee shore. It is not an anchor. Brien H --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > Hi all > > I'm strictly armchair on this topic, but the consensus > generalisation (as perhaps represented in the Adlard Coles book, > which gives a number of anecdotal "case studies") seems to be that > tyres often dont work very well, because they dont generate a great > deal of drag for their bulk, and because they tend to porpoise and > surf. There are of course infinite variations in storm conditions, > vessel and rigs possible, one of which might be use in combination > with an anchor and its rode, so mileage will vary. I THINK the book > was positive about the use of plough-type anchors as drogues, > (hydodynamically stable and generated appreciable drag). > > Regds, Ed Lithgow > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > Yes I agree. > > I have a couple of canvas type sea anchors / drogues that I made > and I will make a couple more. The beauty of these is they can be > stashed down below. But to back up these units I have always > considered the anchor, and now I think I will also include two > tyres. I can paint them and attach them to the aft railing. They > could also serve as fenders when moored alongside a rocky sea wall. > > > > Michael > > ----- | 8523|8512|2005-08-12 18:04:06|Gary|Re: Testing testing|I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm of whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to do it again) Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet last > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. The > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands strewn > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well found > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and sorted > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 year > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when imersed > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I typically > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel boat > does. > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to set > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and we > look forward to many more trips to come. > > rt | 8524|8499|2005-08-12 19:34:38|kendall|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > From what I've read, > > > > The parachute from the bow literally stops the boat dead, nose into the seas > and puts a lot of strain on the equipment. > > > > Whereas the series drogue from the stern, (when at the correct length) slows > the boat down and, allows the boat some surge within the elasticity of the > rode and reduces the strain on the boat and equipment. > > > > Issues are keeping them in the water, reducing the strain on the equipment > and recovering them afterwards. > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > seems to me the strain on the equipment and boat as a whole would be the same either way with the same drogue, if you have 'X' pounds of drag in water, whether you tie off bow or stern, you still have 'X' pounds of drag, and that can only be changed by altering the number of drogues in the series. I think the real question comes down to which way you'd rather take the waves, over the bow, which is arguably 'designed' to handle waves, or over the stern, which is not designed to take waves. Never have been in serious weather, but have paid attention to discussions, don't want to either, but you sail enough and you're gonna find some, and the concensus (in discussions I've read or taken part in) seems to be that you risk greater damage potential taking the weather from the stern, with rudder damage being one of the most cited examples, along with hatchboards caving in and cockpits not draining fast enough to keep afloat, and putting the boat in greater danger with the next wave. I think I'd prefer facing the storm and taking waves over the bow, but I do not have a steel boat (yet), instead I have a 37 year old fiberglass boat with a relatively huge mahogony rudder, pretty tough, but not as tough as a steel hull. Maybe if I had a steel hull with a smaller, or better protected rudder, I'd have a different outlook. Ken| 8525|8499|2005-08-12 22:07:21|seeratlas|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors/bow/stern rudder|well two things, or maybe 3, first if you're running your stern is taking the hit at whatever wave speed is minus the speed you're running. The bow is taking it full pop. second, I angle a bit to take the hit on the quarter, not directly on the stern tho i suppose you could to that depending on stern shape, say canoe or double ender... third, imho you're more likely to take rudder damage by getting hit on the nose and being forced backwards at some speed, this will cock the rudder to one side or the other and tear it all to hell. Some designers limit manueverability a bit but build in rudder 'stops' to keep the rudder from going too far off to one side. fourth , there is no guarantee that lying nose too, won't get you tossed over on your back. We're talking survival conditions here, and a big wave packs enormous power, put it this way, you've see the guys surf hawaii....would you rather try to ride the wave out? or stand there and try to stop it? This is a tough one to arm chair, Personally I'd discount opinions from anyone who hasn't been there, and even then most sailors won't have tried all the options, mostly they will have settled on one tactic or the other. I myself have laid to a bow sea anchor in only moderately bad conditions, and only because I needed to buy some time to correct a mechanical problem without losing any more ground to leeward than absolutely necessary, even then the several hundred dollar contraption promptly shredded itself. I HAVE however survived two life threatening storms in which boats and lives were lost by running while trailing a warp. On one occasion I ran right off my charts into the North Pacific, but I preferred afloat and lost to knowing my exact position and taking water, or worse. One point I do agree with, to be sure different boats might very well favor one tactic over the other. It's not a bad idea to take out some experienced hands and 'play' with your boat in a storm you're sure you can handle to get a feel for what she likes and doesn't. Its no accident that boats are often named for women, and the more you know about yours, the better, in both cases :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > > From what I've read, > > > > > > > > The parachute from the bow literally stops the boat dead, nose into > the seas > > and puts a lot of strain on the equipment. > > > > > > > > Whereas the series drogue from the stern, (when at the correct > length) slows > > the boat down and, allows the boat some surge within the elasticity > of the > > rode and reduces the strain on the boat and equipment. > > > > > > > > Issues are keeping them in the water, reducing the strain on the > equipment > > and recovering them afterwards. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > seems to me the strain on the equipment and boat as a whole would be > the same either way with the same drogue, if you have 'X' pounds of > drag in water, whether you tie off bow or stern, you still have 'X' > pounds of drag, and that can only be changed by altering the number of > drogues in the series. > > I think the real question comes down to which way you'd rather take > the waves, over the bow, which is arguably 'designed' to handle waves, > or over the stern, which is not designed to take waves. > Never have been in serious weather, but have paid attention to > discussions, don't want to either, but you sail enough and you're > gonna find some, and the concensus (in discussions I've read or taken > part in) seems to be that you risk greater damage potential taking the > weather from the stern, with rudder damage being one of the most cited > examples, along with hatchboards caving in and cockpits not draining > fast enough to keep afloat, and putting the boat in greater danger > with the next wave. > > I think I'd prefer facing the storm and taking waves over the bow, > but I do not have a steel boat (yet), instead I have a 37 year old > fiberglass boat with a relatively huge mahogony rudder, pretty tough, > but not as tough as a steel hull. > Maybe if I had a steel hull with a smaller, or better protected > rudder, I'd have a different outlook. > > Ken | 8526|8499|2005-08-13 08:22:10|Bill Jaine|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors/bow/stern rudder|From the armchair to the designer :-) This is the info and links on the series drogue….may we never get to need one Bill, Port Hope HYPERLINK "http://www.sailrite.com/drogue_information.htm"http://www.sailrite.com/drog ue_information.htm HYPERLINK "http://seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/droguereport.htm"http://seriesdrog ue.com/coastguardreport/droguereport.htm Investigation of The Use of Drogues To Improve The Safety of Sailing Yachts by U.S. Coast Guard, Groton, CT Report No. CG-D-20-87 U.S. Coast Guard Research and Development Center Avery Point, Groton, Connecticut 06340-6096 and Donald Jordan Consulting Engineer 9) Do you cruise with a drogue on board and have you ever had to use it or does it just take up space? When we set out cruising we did not carry a drogue, thinking that trailing a rope warp with weight on the end would suffice in an emergency. Several rather nasty storms made us reconsider this idea, and when our friends survived the Queen’s Birthday Storm sailing between New Zealand and Tonga with much thanks to their drogue, we started looking for something better. A careful reading of Tony Farrington’s “Rescue in the Pacific” made us doubt that the traditional parachute drogue was what we wanted. Around the same time we had read in the SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising Association) Commodore’s Bulletin of a Jordan Series Drogue, and the more we read about it, the more we believed that this was the right gear to carry. We made our own from scrap sail cloth out of the local sailmaker’s scrap box. The pattern can be bought from the SSCA as an Extra Publication. ( HYPERLINK "http://www.ssca.org"http://www.ssca.org ) It seems to be a rule of cruising that as soon as you acquire a piece of emergency gear the emergency never arises again. We have deployed the drogue only once and that was to test it more than because we needed it. But as I’ve said to others: if you cross oceans carrying a drogue and never have to use it, good for you! If you do not have one and are unlucky enough to be the path of one of those big storms, good luck! http://seriesdrogue.com/vs/ U.S. Coast Guard conclusions - series drogue vs para anchor. “This paper documents the investigation of the use of drogues/sea anchors to prevent small sailing yacht capsize in breaking seas. The following conclusions were reached: i) _____In many and possibly most cases, a properly engineered drogue can prevent breaking wave capsizing. ii)___._ For fin keel sailing yachts the drogue/sea anchor should be deployed from the stern, not the bow. iii) ____A series type drogue provides significant advantages over a cone or parachute type drogue/sea anchor. iv) ____A full-scale series drogue demonstrated satisfactory handling and durability characteristics under simulated storm conditions and in actual breaking wave conditions. v) ___._A recommended design specification including design loads is presented for cone, parachute and series type drogues”. U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-2087 sec 7-0 http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnotes/notes3.html Designers notes 3 HYPERLINK "http://seriesdrogue.com" Donald J. Jordan Consulting Engineer 113 Evergreen Lane Glastonbury, Connecticut Reproduced with the kind permission of Donald Jordan _____ Sea Anchor Problems Sailing couple Mike and Joyce Creasy reported that while riding to a parachute sea anchor, they waltzed through 40 degrees each side of the wind in a moderate storm. Heavy loads damaged the attachments of the rode, and the rudder quadrant was broken. Several letters commenting on this event appeared in the December issue. It is apparent from this literature that the authors were not familiar with the series drogue, often called the Jordan series drogue. I developed this drogue in conjunction with the Coast Guard. It is the first and only such device to be specifically designed for a 'worst case' breaking wave strike. Such a strike is described in Miles Smeeton's book 'Once Is Enough'. Modern engineering tools such as scale model testing in flow channels and breaking wave tanks, computer dynamic simulation, and laboratory testing for structural strength and durability were used in the development, as well as full scale testing using a 42-foot Coast Guard powerboat. The final design was tested in large breaking waves at the Coast Guard National Motor Lifeboat School in Ilwaco, Washington. This work is described in U.S. Coast Guard Report C.G.-D-20- 87, Investigation of the Use of Drogues to Improve the Safety of Sailing Yachts., U. S Dept. of Commerce Nat. Info. Service, Springfield, VA 22191 ($22). The series drogue has now been at sea for over 12 years. At least 500 - and possibly over 1,000 - are in use all over the world. Many skippers have made their own, a tedious but not difficult job. The drogue has been deployed in many storms, including at least two of hurricane strength. The record has been flawless. No boat has suffered any damage, no crewman has been injured, and the drogue has been retrieved in the as launched condition. Every skipper has been satisfied with the performance. This conclusively puts to rest the old fear of being pooped when held stem to the waves. There are simple and sound engineering reasons for this most remarkable performance. There is a growing recognition among those using the drogue that 'storm tactics' are no longer required. When the weather deteriorates to the point where useful progress is impossible or even uncomfortable, they deploy the drogue and retire to the cabin with the knowledge that they are protected from anything the sea can bring on. The boat rides easily with less than 10° of yaw, and with a drift rate of 1.5 knots. The drogue loads are low, about 15% of the design load. The design load is only approached in the rare event of a 'worst case' breaking wave strike capable of catapulting the boat ahead of the wave. In this event the drogue is designed to align the semi-airborne boat with the wave, decelerate the boat, and pull it through the breaking crest without exceeding the allowable load on the drogue or boat. Books such as Cole's 'Heavy Weather Sailing' - a favorite of mine for many years - are actually no longer pertinent. Understandably, this thought is bitterly contested by a few experienced sailors who regret the loss of the need for sea lore, judgment, and skill in handling their vessels in bad conditions. I am an aeronautical engineer and view the drogue as similar in function to the ejection seat on a fighter aircraft - you pull the handle and sit back until it is all over. In the course of this program, I have studied the history of sea anchors and drogues. A sea anchor is intuitively attractive. It brings to mind anchoring in a harbor, safe and secure. Sea anchors have been carried on some sailing yachts over a long period of time. I have not been able to find a single instance where they provided protection in a major storm, and many instances when they contributed to the loss of the vessel. We now know that the sea anchors used were much too small to pull the bow into the wind. When mulithulls began to go to sea in the 1960s, a number were capsized in conditions where a monohull would be expected to survive. This led to experimentation with sea anchors. I believe that the Casanovas were one of the first to try the large aircraft surplus parachute. They found that the chute would hold the boat into the wind in moderate storm conditions with little yaw and would prevent capsize. The cyclic loads on the rode were very high but a solution was found by providing a long and stretchy rode to compensate for the relative motion between the immovable chute and the boat. A number of multihull skippers have successfully used the chute in moderate storms. This led to attempts to use the chute on monohulls. However the situation here is very different. A monohull is directionally unstable when moving backward because the center of pressure of the underwater surface is behind the center of gravity. As any skipper knows, it is possible to run off before a storm - but it is not possible to run off backwards as the boat will yaw. There are two additional sources of instability. The center of pressure of the air forces on the topsides and rigging is ahead of the center of gravity. There is also a third and more complex dynamic instability. The last two instabilities result in the behavior observed when a monohull is anchored from the bow in protected water during a hurricane. "It is particularly unnerving to watch a yacht tacking back and forth on a mooring under bare poles and knocking flat at the end of each tack," reported one who watched a monohull during hurricane Bertha. If the boat had been anchored from the stern, it would ride with little yaw. When riding to a parachute sea anchor, a monohull will yaw wildly. As the storm increased in severity, it would develop load sufficient to break the rode. A sea anchor does not provide safety in a survival storm. Although a multihull is also unstable when moving backwards, it is less unstable than a monohull because it has less underwater surface aft. This moderate instability is overcome by the stabilizing effect of the wide bridle - 20 feet or more - and the combination is stable. Thus the boat will ride well in a moderate storm. However, the large chute is essentially immovable, and in a survival storm will develop loads sufficient to break the rode. At six knots, an 18 foot chute would develop a load of 30,000 lbs - if it didn't fail first. The series drogue would only have a load of 900 lbs. The series drogue will protect both the monohull and the multihull in a survival storm. I would be glad to answer questions via email and to provide supporting documents where feasible. Donald J. Jordan, Consulting Engineer Glastonbury, CT Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 12/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 12/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8527|8512|2005-08-14 10:45:39|Carl Volkwein|Re: Testing testing|Gary, Glad you made it OK through the rapids, but here's a little trick you ( or anyone else reading this post) mite benifit from. When the boat is in water that's moving faster than it, the thing to do is aim the stern of the boat at the thing you're thying to miss, while aiming the stern toward where you want to go and run the engine in reverse, tghis will slow the boat down, and the boat will now act as a rudder and go sideways toward where you want to go. Gary wrote: I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm of whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to do it again) Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet last > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. The > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands strewn > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well found > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and sorted > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 year > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when imersed > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I typically > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel boat > does. > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to set > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and we > look forward to many more trips to come. > > rt To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8528|8512|2005-08-14 13:36:08|Gary|Re: Testing testing|Heh,heh.... thanks for suggestion. But I would sure like to test that out somewhere first. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Gary, > > Glad you made it OK through the rapids, but here's a little trick you ( or anyone else reading this post) mite benifit from. > > When the boat is in water that's moving faster than it, the thing to do is aim the stern of the boat at the thing you're thying to miss, while aiming the stern toward where you want to go and run the engine in reverse, tghis will slow the boat down, and the boat will now act as a rudder and go sideways toward where you want to go. > > Gary wrote: > I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. > Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm of > whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well > but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was > maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very > stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to > do it again) > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet > last > > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. The > > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands > strewn > > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well > found > > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and sorted > > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 year > > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when imersed > > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I typically > > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel boat > > does. > > > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to > set > > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and > we > > look forward to many more trips to come. > > > > rt > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8529|8512|2005-08-14 20:20:30|Carl Volkwein|Re: Testing testing|Gary, No realy, with the boat moving slower than the current, the boat will act as a rudder and move the boat ACCROSS the current in that direction. As for testing this concept, Not to brag, but I did this every day all summer long, as a white-water raft guide, the angle heading down river was called the ferry angle, and amounted to about 10 or 15 %, and when the ferry angel was set you waited untill the chanel you wanted was in frount of you and called "All back" and everyone would backpaddle. You can try this out with a row boat, anywhere there'sa enough current just point the stern into the current and backpaddle while faceing forward, you'll have it down in no time. Carl. Gary wrote: Heh,heh.... thanks for suggestion. But I would sure like to test that out somewhere first. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Gary, > > Glad you made it OK through the rapids, but here's a little trick you ( or anyone else reading this post) mite benifit from. > > When the boat is in water that's moving faster than it, the thing to do is aim the stern of the boat at the thing you're thying to miss, while aiming the stern toward where you want to go and run the engine in reverse, tghis will slow the boat down, and the boat will now act as a rudder and go sideways toward where you want to go. > > Gary wrote: > I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. > Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm of > whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well > but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was > maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very > stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to > do it again) > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet > last > > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. The > > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands > strewn > > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well > found > > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and sorted > > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 year > > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when imersed > > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I typically > > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel boat > > does. > > > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to > set > > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and > we > > look forward to many more trips to come. > > > > rt > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8530|8499|2005-08-14 22:15:33|khooper_fboats|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors/bow/stern rudder|Mr. Jaines quotes somebody else: > Around the same time we had read in the SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising > Association) Commodore's Bulletin of a Jordan Series Drogue, and the more we > read about it, the more we believed that this was the right gear to carry. > We made our own from scrap sail cloth out of the local sailmaker's scrap > box. The pattern can be bought from the SSCA as an Extra Publication. ( > HYPERLINK "http://www.ssca.org"http://www.ssca.org ) It's not obvious from the site whether/where this pattern is available, has anybody else got dimensions? I realize it's just a nylon cone but it's impossible to tell from the photos on the seriesdrogue.com site how big the cones are.| 8531|8531|2005-08-14 22:55:51|blueiceicle|woodstove poderings|Hows it going group? Well im bored and im thinking of starting on a woodstove for my future 26-28ft swain Idealy it would be a good idea to wait until the hull is together so i can have a idea as to how much room i got to work with. But i have some spare stainless 10g and figured id wing it. If it ends up to big atleast ill have some experiance for the next one. I know there has been posts on this topic already but im having a hard time finding them. Anyhow what im thinking is 10g stainless for the stove, with maybe 14g or 16g for heat sheilds. I was also wondering if i could get away with myabe 12g for the stove with maybe 10g for the top of the stove? Id like to see if i can use the top to cook with where possible. Im thinking maybe 24" deep 16" wide and maybe 16" high.(not too sure) The plan is to make it airtight, so ill be putting in out side air source fitting somewheres. Not sure if bricks are needed inside or if there is some other arrangement that would be better. Any input would be appreciated Thanks Jesse| 8532|8512|2005-08-15 00:09:23|seeratlas|Re: Testing testing|Carl, when I first read your suggestion I was wondering if you were also a kayaker or rafter, (I am) and it appears I guessed right. I myself would be hesitant trying this on a full bodied keeled cruiser in a very dangerous place like the rapids of which he was speaking. It is a VERY difficult thing to control any keeled sailboat in reverse in a cross current, and takes quite a bit of practice, as once a current gets 'hold' of a heavy keeled boat, it is very likely that the stern would get swept up and spun downstream presenting the entire side of the vessel to any approaching rocks etc. Furthermore, recovery from this situation could get pretty dicey and take more than just a few precious seconds, all the while the boat is speeding rapidly downstream without any substantial ability to manuever. Now, I've NEVER personally lost control in the way I describe, since I don't use that tactic, to me manueverability means traveling forward faster than the water, however, I HAVE seen several sailboats get into trouble trying to negotiate 'troubled waters' at slower than flow speed. There is a subSTANTIAL difference between the control you have over most keeled sailboats going forward as opposed to reverse. Throw in a strong current and that difference is magnified geometrically. One thing, If I find a safe place to try it when I get mine built, I will. Good idea to know how your boat handles in all conditions :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Gary, > > No realy, with the boat moving slower than the current, the boat will act as a rudder and move the boat ACCROSS the current in that direction. > > As for testing this concept, Not to brag, but I did this every day all summer long, as a white-water raft guide, the angle heading down river was called the ferry angle, and amounted to about 10 or 15 %, and when the ferry angel was set you waited untill the chanel you wanted was in frount of you and called "All back" and everyone would backpaddle. > > You can try this out with a row boat, anywhere there'sa enough current just point the stern into the current and backpaddle while faceing forward, you'll have it down in no time. > > Carl. > > Gary wrote: > Heh,heh.... thanks for suggestion. But I would sure like to test > that out somewhere first. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > > Gary, > > > > Glad you made it OK through the rapids, but here's a little > trick you ( or anyone else reading this post) mite benifit from. > > > > When the boat is in water that's moving faster than it, the > thing to do is aim the stern of the boat at the thing you're thying > to miss, while aiming the stern toward where you want to go and run > the engine in reverse, tghis will slow the boat down, and the boat > will now act as a rudder and go sideways toward where you want to go. > > > > Gary wrote: > > I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. > > Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm > of > > whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well > > but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was > > maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very > > stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to > > do it again) > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" > wrote: > > > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet > > last > > > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. > The > > > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands > > strewn > > > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well > > found > > > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and > sorted > > > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > > > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 > year > > > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > > > > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when > imersed > > > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I > typically > > > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > > > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > > > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > > > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel > boat > > > does. > > > > > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to > > set > > > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > > > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > > > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > > > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and > > we > > > look forward to many more trips to come. > > > > > > rt > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8533|1354|2005-08-15 00:23:00|blueiceicle|Masts|Just checking out the picks of Kobella Nice boat! Do I really want to know how much it would cost for a stainless steel mast? For some strange reason im compeled to ask. If anyone cares to speculate id love to hear. I though stainless was a little overboard for a mast but hey, it sure looks good. Regards Jesse| 8534|8512|2005-08-15 00:26:36|Sugar|Re: Testing testing|Carl, Yes you are correct. I am also a kayaker. And I have backpaddled the same way and for the same reasons in Baja waiting for the right wave and angle to jet into a seacave. It does work just like you said! Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Gary, > > No realy, with the boat moving slower than the current, the boat will act as a rudder and move the boat ACCROSS the current in that direction. > > As for testing this concept, Not to brag, but I did this every day all summer long, as a white-water raft guide, the angle heading down river was called the ferry angle, and amounted to about 10 or 15 %, and when the ferry angel was set you waited untill the chanel you wanted was in frount of you and called "All back" and everyone would backpaddle. > > You can try this out with a row boat, anywhere there'sa enough current just point the stern into the current and backpaddle while faceing forward, you'll have it down in no time. > > Carl. > > Gary wrote: > Heh,heh.... thanks for suggestion. But I would sure like to test > that out somewhere first. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > > Gary, > > > > Glad you made it OK through the rapids, but here's a little > trick you ( or anyone else reading this post) mite benifit from. > > > > When the boat is in water that's moving faster than it, the > thing to do is aim the stern of the boat at the thing you're thying > to miss, while aiming the stern toward where you want to go and run > the engine in reverse, tghis will slow the boat down, and the boat > will now act as a rudder and go sideways toward where you want to go. > > > > Gary wrote: > > I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. > > Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm > of > > whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well > > but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was > > maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very > > stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to > > do it again) > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" > wrote: > > > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet > > last > > > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. > The > > > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands > > strewn > > > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well > > found > > > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and > sorted > > > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > > > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 > year > > > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > > > > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when > imersed > > > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I > typically > > > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > > > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > > > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > > > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel > boat > > > does. > > > > > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to > > set > > > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > > > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > > > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > > > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and > > we > > > look forward to many more trips to come. > > > > > > rt > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8535|1354|2005-08-15 00:54:58|Abraham George|Wooden Masts|I'd be interested if sombody told how to get the numbers right or the ratios and formulas of making a wooden mast... Abrams --- blueiceicle wrote: > Just checking out the picks of Kobella > Nice boat! > > Do I really want to know how much it would cost for > a stainless steel > mast? For some strange reason im compeled to ask. If > anyone cares to > speculate id love to hear. > I though stainless was a little overboard for a > mast but hey, it sure > looks good. > > Regards > Jesse > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8536|8512|2005-08-15 04:51:35|Carl Volkwein|Re: Testing testing|Seer Gary and all, Another thing you could do, if you find yourself in this place and need th the world to stop for a while. Onece you pass that realy BIG rock, is you could try to get into the "eddy" behind the rock(as long as you're sure that there will be enough water there at low tide and a clear path back to the main channel, BUT beware of the dreaded "eddy line" that transision between the fast current of the rappid and the still water of the eddy, I've seen some things happen on the eddy line that have to be seen to be beleaved. It's possible when crossing into the eddy that the stern will be sucked down umder water for instance, but if you don't dally there and get accross into the eddy, it's like another world in there, expect to find a slight UP STREAM current pulling you toward that rock you just avoided, not a strong current, you could just do nothing and just bump the rock and stay there, then waite for slack tide to get back into the chanel to continue to where you were going. One thing more, if you are in the eddy and think you want back into the rappid, be carefull of that eddy line again, from the eddy side, they are very hard to break, anbd when you do they will want to flip your boat over as you enter the main current, not as likely with a heavy boat as a raft but the tendency is there, better to get some ways down stream before hitting the eddy line, and NOT hit it at a 90 degree angel, it's like running into a wall. Carl. seeratlas wrote: Carl, when I first read your suggestion I was wondering if you were also a kayaker or rafter, (I am) and it appears I guessed right. I myself would be hesitant trying this on a full bodied keeled cruiser in a very dangerous place like the rapids of which he was speaking. It is a VERY difficult thing to control any keeled sailboat in reverse in a cross current, and takes quite a bit of practice, as once a current gets 'hold' of a heavy keeled boat, it is very likely that the stern would get swept up and spun downstream presenting the entire side of the vessel to any approaching rocks etc. Furthermore, recovery from this situation could get pretty dicey and take more than just a few precious seconds, all the while the boat is speeding rapidly downstream without any substantial ability to manuever. Now, I've NEVER personally lost control in the way I describe, since I don't use that tactic, to me manueverability means traveling forward faster than the water, however, I HAVE seen several sailboats get into trouble trying to negotiate 'troubled waters' at slower than flow speed. There is a subSTANTIAL difference between the control you have over most keeled sailboats going forward as opposed to reverse. Throw in a strong current and that difference is magnified geometrically. One thing, If I find a safe place to try it when I get mine built, I will. Good idea to know how your boat handles in all conditions :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Gary, > > No realy, with the boat moving slower than the current, the boat will act as a rudder and move the boat ACCROSS the current in that direction. > > As for testing this concept, Not to brag, but I did this every day all summer long, as a white-water raft guide, the angle heading down river was called the ferry angle, and amounted to about 10 or 15 %, and when the ferry angel was set you waited untill the chanel you wanted was in frount of you and called "All back" and everyone would backpaddle. > > You can try this out with a row boat, anywhere there'sa enough current just point the stern into the current and backpaddle while faceing forward, you'll have it down in no time. > > Carl. > > Gary wrote: > Heh,heh.... thanks for suggestion. But I would sure like to test > that out somewhere first. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > > Gary, > > > > Glad you made it OK through the rapids, but here's a little > trick you ( or anyone else reading this post) mite benifit from. > > > > When the boat is in water that's moving faster than it, the > thing to do is aim the stern of the boat at the thing you're thying > to miss, while aiming the stern toward where you want to go and run > the engine in reverse, tghis will slow the boat down, and the boat > will now act as a rudder and go sideways toward where you want to go. > > > > Gary wrote: > > I recently experienced rapids because I read tide tables wrong. > > Halfway through Blind Channel rapids I found myself in a maelstorm > of > > whirlpools and frothing water. The bs 36 bilge keeler took it well > > but as the current was against the boat the 3 cyl 27hp yanmar was > > maxed out and I barely made it out. The boat was rocking but very > > stable and did lose frontal direction. (P.S... I would not want to > > do it again) > > > > Gary > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" > wrote: > > > Motored "My Island" (BS 36)up to Hotham Sound and Narrows Inlet > > last > > > weekend. This entailed a trip through the Skookumchuk Rapids. > The > > > Skook' has a rip of up to 18 knts and a few rocks and islands > > strewn > > > in for interest sake. The BS 36 played in 6-7 knts like a well > > found > > > canoe in white-water. The VW/Borg warner combo snorted and > sorted > > > through the whirlpools until we were delivered through this > > > geographic birth canal--out to open water. This after a 4 1/2 > year > > > conception/gestation in Sechelt Inlet where we built the boat. > > > > > > This steel 36 is a boat that instills great confidence when > imersed > > > in the typical hazards one encounters on the BC coast. I > typically > > > transit the narrows at slack water, on this occasion we wanted to > > > test her mettle as it were. Having been through the Skook' many > > > times in many craft it immediately becomes evident that wood and > > > plastic boats cannot provide the sense of security this steel > boat > > > does. > > > > > > Anchored at Harmony Islands beside Friel Falls we swam ashore to > > set > > > a stern line and in doing so were caused to look back at the boat > > > riding in the gap. A great sense of achievement comes from this > > > image. Building a boat as an amatuer requires considerable > > > commitment and it takes time. The rewards are there it seems and > > we > > > look forward to many more trips to come. > > > > > > rt > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8537|8499|2005-08-15 05:12:03|Carl Volkwein|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Bruce, Yes that would be a good thing over the stern, and if you got into some shallow water the anchor would dig in (hopefully) before the water went away alltogether. Carl. Bruce Hallman wrote: On 8/8/05, ed_lithgow wrote: > cheap/free para sea anchor? Phil Bolger makes a very compelling argument that simply dropping your anchor and the full length of anchor chain serves as a most effective drogue. The reason being that it gets down into the depths of the ocean not effected by surface drift. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8538|8499|2005-08-15 08:44:50|Bill Jaine|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors/bow/stern rudder|Hi I�ve sent to you directly pictures/sizes of how to make one. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of khooper_fboats Sent: 14-Aug-05 10:15 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors/bow/stern rudder Mr. Jaines quotes somebody else: > Around the same time we had read in the SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising > Association) Commodore's Bulletin of a Jordan Series Drogue, and the more we > read about it, the more we believed that this was the right gear to carry. > We made our own from scrap sail cloth out of the local sailmaker's scrap > box. The pattern can be bought from the SSCA as an Extra Publication. ( > HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.ssca.org"http://www.ssca.org"HYPERLINK "http://www.ssca.org"http://www.ssca.org ) It's not obvious from the site whether/where this pattern is available, has anybody else got dimensions? I realize it's just a nylon cone but it's impossible to tell from the photos on the seriesdrogue.com site how big the cones are. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats"origamiboats" on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"origami boats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 12/08/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 12/08/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8539|8499|2005-08-15 08:51:56|Courtney Thomas|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors/bow/stern rudder|sailrite.com has a drogue kit. HTH, Courtney On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 21:15, khooper_fboats wrote: > Mr. Jaines quotes somebody else: > > > Around the same time we had read in the SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising > > Association) Commodore's Bulletin of a Jordan Series Drogue, and the > more we > > read about it, the more we believed that this was the right gear to > carry. > > We made our own from scrap sail cloth out of the local sailmaker's scrap > > box. The pattern can be bought from the SSCA as an Extra Publication. ( > > HYPERLINK "http://www.ssca.org"http://www.ssca.org ) > > It's not obvious from the site whether/where this pattern is > available, has anybody else got dimensions? I realize it's just a > nylon cone but it's impossible to tell from the photos on the > seriesdrogue.com site how big the cones are. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8540|1354|2005-08-15 11:20:29|khooper_fboats|Re: Wooden Masts|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Abraham George wrote: > I'd be interested if sombody told how to get the > numbers right or the ratios and formulas of making a > wooden mast... There are two programs (Windoze executables) in the Files section of the BackyardBoatbuilding2 group which do what you're looking for if you have the sail area and mast height. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackyardBoatbuilding2/files/Mast%20Design%20Programs/ --Hoop| 8541|8531|2005-08-15 13:29:39|Paul Cotter|Re: woodstove poderings|Jesse, Below is a posting Brent submitted in response to my questions regarding a woodstove for a 26 footer (or any other size, I presume). Your plans sound ok, but wouldn’t that be a tad large; perhaps you could use the spare stainless for something else. I have pieces cut out for my stove (3/16 mild steel – its what I had laying around), but I haven’t gotten around to welding it up. I may add a spur line from the air intake line in the firebox that leads above the baffle. This provides some afterburn; somewhat cleaner and, at least theoretically, cleaner. Certainly, the future of our planet and global warming won’t be determined by the specs of my stove, but the spur line may also minimize buildup of combustion products in the stack. A friend of mine who has built many stoves and is recently getting his stoves EPA certified for low emissions suggested the spur. He has found that the extra line makes a big difference. Who knows? Perhaps it isn’t worth the trouble. If you are planning to use that amount of space, have you considered using firebricks of some sort? When those puppies heat up, they radiate for quite some time. I believe there were several postings sometime around last March/April. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. Cheers Paul Paul I keep mmeaning to draw up a good woodstove for the book, but haven't got around to it yet. I usually biuld a box stove 11 inches wide by 12 inches high by 18 inches long, with a sliding baffle three inches down from the top, 3/4 the length of the stove.The chimney can either go at a 45v out the back for a stern stovepipe, or out the front corner for a stove by the mast. For the foreward pipe, you slide the baffle foreward for a long burn.Costa Vida used this arrangement and it works extremely well. I like to keep the door at least 4 inches down from the top to keep smoke in when the door is open. I use an outside 2 inch pipe for an air intake to prevent downdrafts. This I lead into the back of the stove and running thru the firebox to the front to preheat the combustion air. 1/8th inch stainless makes a good stove if you can get it cheap. Otherwise cold galvanized plate lasts a long time and it's surprising how well the cold galvanizing holds on. I weld the thin walled 4 inch stainles stove pipe to the deck and stove for a permanent mount. This eliminates creosote leaks . With the pipe being straight , it's easy to clean and there is no reason to ever remove it. Brent -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of blueiceicle Sent: 08/14/2005 6:56 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] woodstove poderings Hows it going group? Well im bored and im thinking of starting on a woodstove for my future 26-28ft swain Idealy it would be a good idea to wait until the hull is together so i can have a idea as to how much room i got to work with. But i have some spare stainless 10g and figured id wing it. If it ends up to big atleast ill have some experiance for the next one. I know there has been posts on this topic already but im having a hard time finding them. Anyhow what im thinking is 10g stainless for the stove, with maybe 14g or 16g for heat sheilds. I was also wondering if i could get away with myabe 12g for the stove with maybe 10g for the top of the stove? Id like to see if i can use the top to cook with where possible. Im thinking maybe 24" deep 16" wide and maybe 16" high.(not too sure) The plan is to make it airtight, so ill be putting in out side air source fitting somewheres. Not sure if bricks are needed inside or if there is some other arrangement that would be better. Any input would be appreciated Thanks Jesse To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8542|8531|2005-08-15 23:11:25|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: woodstove poderings|Over 20 years ago I worked as a welder building UL approved home wood stoves and all where built with 3/16ths mild steel and bricked bottems and sides. One brand had the panels butted at the corners and the welds where ground to make a rounded corner it was found that the corners need to be welded on the inside also or with repeated use (heating and cooling) the welds could fail a better solution was to bend all four corners and put a fill band in above and below the door opening. A air tight stove with a damper on the fresh air can put out a lot of heat in a small space by dampening the air intake after a fire is established. Heet shilds where commenly made of lighter gage welded with 1/8"6011 at 150 amps quickly and down hill a real trick for some one unsteady. Think safty and try the stove and see how much heat it produces befor placing in a confinded space it would be a real pain to find out it is to big after installing. Just some thoughts Jon| 8543|1354|2005-08-16 03:10:03|Abraham George|Re: Wooden Masts|Thanks Hoop for the lead. regards Abraham --- khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Abraham George > > wrote: > > I'd be interested if sombody told how to get the > > numbers right or the ratios and formulas of making > a > > wooden mast... > > There are two programs (Windoze executables) in the > Files section of > the BackyardBoatbuilding2 group which do what you're > looking for if > you have the sail area and mast height. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BackyardBoatbuilding2/files/Mast%20Design%20Programs/ > > --Hoop > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8544|8531|2005-08-16 09:27:30|Bruce Hallman|Re: woodstove poderings|> A air tight stove with a damper on the fresh air can put out a lot of heat > Jon The Peter Lenihan charcoal heater used by Dave Zeiger for boat heat in Alaska is fueled by two or three charcoal briquettes. Sorry, no photo, but here is a cut and paste of what Peter Lenihan wrote in response to a request to describe the stove: ======== And that's where all my relative-soaking-greedy-schemes came to an end.I recalled writing to Dave,a long time ago, and sending him a quicky sketch of a little charcoal heater I had been using in my (then) Micro Lestat.He thought it might be useful in either his ZOON or his self designed sharpie,modeled after the Bolger AS-29. Being the pathetic correspondant that I am, I never followed up with Dave on whether or not he found it useful in the weather of Alaska. However, for anyone contemplating such a device, here follows a description of the critter: A -One length of copper pipe,at least 2" diameter and about a foot or so long. B -One copper cap to close off one end of pipe. C-One pipe reducer fitting going from size of your pipe down to 1" D-One 2" length of pipe one size BIGGER then item A. E-One wire coat hanger. F-One length of 1"pipe for smoke stack,length to suit your own set- up. With this collection of copper pipe,picked up at your local hardware store,begin by cutting out a rectangular opening or hole about 3 inches from one end of your 2" diameter length of pipe(item A).This opening should be about 2 inches wide and one inch high. Remember,item A is the heater body,it stands vertically,thus the opening you are making should run horizontaly when the pipe is upright. Next,cut item D to length.That is,have it at least a quarter inch wider then the opening you have already cut into item A.Slide this collar(item D) onto the stove body(item A)until it covers the opening you've cut. Then,pierce this little collar with a dozen or so holes in a tight grouping no bigger then the hole you cut in item A. This then is what will give you some control over the "draft" in your heater. Next,just above the the hole cut-out in item A,drill a few holes no bigger then the coat hanger wire,and through which you will run short lengths of the coat hanger wire to form a"grill" or grid onto which your little bits of charcoal will rest. Is this making sense so far? If you've made it this far with the construction, the rest should become apparent with the pipe cap forming the lower end of the heater,just bellow the openning and the reducer fitting serving as the top of the heater. This heater is loaded from above,say two to three bricquettes at a time. You then light the first or lowest bricquette leaving it to slowly burn until it ignites the one above it etc.... Find a secure place to keep you heater when in operation as the copper will get very hot. Make certain that your chimney actually exits the boat! Never leave this thing un-attended!!! To enhance some of the heater effect, a large juice can can be used as a heat diffuser. Hope this all helps,for lack of a scan.| 8545|8531|2005-08-16 13:25:30|Paul Cotter|Re: woodstove poderings|That’s pretty funky…how do you load it? -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Hallman Sent: 08/16/2005 5:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: woodstove poderings > A air tight stove with a damper on the fresh air can put out a lot of heat > Jon The Peter Lenihan charcoal heater used by Dave Zeiger for boat heat in Alaska is fueled by two or three charcoal briquettes. Sorry, no photo, but here is a cut and paste of what Peter Lenihan wrote in response to a request to describe the stove: ======== And that's where all my relative-soaking-greedy-schemes came to an end.I recalled writing to Dave,a long time ago, and sending him a quicky sketch of a little charcoal heater I had been using in my (then) Micro Lestat.He thought it might be useful in either his ZOON or his self designed sharpie,modeled after the Bolger AS-29. Being the pathetic correspondant that I am, I never followed up with Dave on whether or not he found it useful in the weather of Alaska. However, for anyone contemplating such a device, here follows a description of the critter: A -One length of copper pipe,at least 2" diameter and about a foot or so long. B -One copper cap to close off one end of pipe. C-One pipe reducer fitting going from size of your pipe down to 1" D-One 2" length of pipe one size BIGGER then item A. E-One wire coat hanger. F-One length of 1"pipe for smoke stack,length to suit your own set- up. With this collection of copper pipe,picked up at your local hardware store,begin by cutting out a rectangular opening or hole about 3 inches from one end of your 2" diameter length of pipe(item A).This opening should be about 2 inches wide and one inch high. Remember,item A is the heater body,it stands vertically,thus the opening you are making should run horizontaly when the pipe is upright. Next,cut item D to length.That is,have it at least a quarter inch wider then the opening you have already cut into item A.Slide this collar(item D) onto the stove body(item A)until it covers the opening you've cut. Then,pierce this little collar with a dozen or so holes in a tight grouping no bigger then the hole you cut in item A. This then is what will give you some control over the "draft" in your heater. Next,just above the the hole cut-out in item A,drill a few holes no bigger then the coat hanger wire,and through which you will run short lengths of the coat hanger wire to form a"grill" or grid onto which your little bits of charcoal will rest. Is this making sense so far? If you've made it this far with the construction, the rest should become apparent with the pipe cap forming the lower end of the heater,just bellow the openning and the reducer fitting serving as the top of the heater. This heater is loaded from above,say two to three bricquettes at a time. You then light the first or lowest bricquette leaving it to slowly burn until it ignites the one above it etc.... Find a secure place to keep you heater when in operation as the copper will get very hot. Make certain that your chimney actually exits the boat! Never leave this thing un-attended!!! To enhance some of the heater effect, a large juice can can be used as a heat diffuser. Hope this all helps,for lack of a scan. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8546|8531|2005-08-16 13:37:12|Paul Cotter|Re: woodstove poderings|Disregard that last question. I drew it out and figured one could just make a loading door above the fire box (tube?). Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Hallman Sent: 08/16/2005 5:27 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: woodstove poderings > A air tight stove with a damper on the fresh air can put out a lot of heat > Jon The Peter Lenihan charcoal heater used by Dave Zeiger for boat heat in Alaska is fueled by two or three charcoal briquettes. Sorry, no photo, but here is a cut and paste of what Peter Lenihan wrote in response to a request to describe the stove: ======== And that's where all my relative-soaking-greedy-schemes came to an end.I recalled writing to Dave,a long time ago, and sending him a quicky sketch of a little charcoal heater I had been using in my (then) Micro Lestat.He thought it might be useful in either his ZOON or his self designed sharpie,modeled after the Bolger AS-29. Being the pathetic correspondant that I am, I never followed up with Dave on whether or not he found it useful in the weather of Alaska. However, for anyone contemplating such a device, here follows a description of the critter: A -One length of copper pipe,at least 2" diameter and about a foot or so long. B -One copper cap to close off one end of pipe. C-One pipe reducer fitting going from size of your pipe down to 1" D-One 2" length of pipe one size BIGGER then item A. E-One wire coat hanger. F-One length of 1"pipe for smoke stack,length to suit your own set- up. With this collection of copper pipe,picked up at your local hardware store,begin by cutting out a rectangular opening or hole about 3 inches from one end of your 2" diameter length of pipe(item A).This opening should be about 2 inches wide and one inch high. Remember,item A is the heater body,it stands vertically,thus the opening you are making should run horizontaly when the pipe is upright. Next,cut item D to length.That is,have it at least a quarter inch wider then the opening you have already cut into item A.Slide this collar(item D) onto the stove body(item A)until it covers the opening you've cut. Then,pierce this little collar with a dozen or so holes in a tight grouping no bigger then the hole you cut in item A. This then is what will give you some control over the "draft" in your heater. Next,just above the the hole cut-out in item A,drill a few holes no bigger then the coat hanger wire,and through which you will run short lengths of the coat hanger wire to form a"grill" or grid onto which your little bits of charcoal will rest. Is this making sense so far? If you've made it this far with the construction, the rest should become apparent with the pipe cap forming the lower end of the heater,just bellow the openning and the reducer fitting serving as the top of the heater. This heater is loaded from above,say two to three bricquettes at a time. You then light the first or lowest bricquette leaving it to slowly burn until it ignites the one above it etc.... Find a secure place to keep you heater when in operation as the copper will get very hot. Make certain that your chimney actually exits the boat! Never leave this thing un-attended!!! To enhance some of the heater effect, a large juice can can be used as a heat diffuser. Hope this all helps,for lack of a scan. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8547|8531|2005-08-16 13:43:32|Bruce Hallman|Re: woodstove poderings|On 8/16/05, Paul Cotter wrote: > Disregard that last question. I drew it out and figured one could just > make a loading door above the fire box (tube?). > Cheers > > Paul Certainly. That stove is not much more than a short length of 2" copper pipe with some holes and a 1" chimney. My (& Jon's) point is that in the small size of a boat cabin, a surprisingly small stove can put out a lot of heat. The Lenihan Charcoal Heater is fueled with 'two or three charcoal briquettes'!| 8548|8499|2005-08-16 16:43:42|brentswain38|Re: Cheapo ParaSeaAnchors|Loads on drogue are much greater lying from the bow as the boat tens to sheer around more that way, and, or, lay a bit more beam on to the seas , leading to much higher loads and more chafe.From the stern she lies like a dead duck with no tendency to sheer around or lay anything but stern to the wind. Much of the arguement against riding stern to apply only to non metal boats with their relativly flimsey transoms and cabins, not applicable to an all metal boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Surprisingly few sailors I've seen have a suitable anchor/chain and > rode equipped for deployment at the stern. The debate still rages as > to whether it is best in survival conditions to lie bow to a drogue > or sea anchor facing into the oncoming waves, and running before the > waves trailing a drogue. My own feeling is that at least in the boats > I've owned, running was always preferable as long as I had steerage way. > > For a boat of any size the loads on the drogue can be enormous. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman wrote: > > On 8/8/05, ed_lithgow wrote: > > > cheap/free para sea anchor? > > > > Phil Bolger makes a very compelling argument that > > simply dropping your anchor and the full length of anchor > > chain serves as a most effective drogue. The reason > > being that it gets down into the depths of the ocean > > not effected by surface drift. | 8549|8549|2005-08-16 16:46:32|brentswain38|Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|When you ask a sandblaster if you only have to blast where the primer has failed he will inevitably advocate blasting the entire hull, even where the primer is good, to white metal. What do you expect him to advocate? That which reduces his potential income from the job? Not likely.He will invariably advocate uneccesary extra work if that results in more money for him. Duhhhh. Brent| 8550|8550|2005-08-16 16:58:42|brentswain38|Airhead compsting toil;ets|I've been researching the Airhead composting toilet in the oct2004 issue of cruising world and at air headtiolets.com It looks like an easy way to simplify the comlex and bulky plumbing, thru hull which plug with barnacles, pump, etc of the standard marine head. While the maker is totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy in charging over $1,000 for less tha $50 worth of plastic and metal, and only offering it in multiples of 8 or more, I have no doubt that this will result in many people making their own as it looks quite simplle Brent| 8551|8531|2005-08-16 18:11:57|kendall|Re: woodstove poderings|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Disregard that last question. I drew it out and figured one could just > make a loading door above the fire box (tube?). > > > Cheers > > Paul > he stated that it's loaded from above, which makes me think you pop the top and load it up, which implies that you'd want to let it burn out before refueling it. though a small loading door, possibly made by cutting a window in a coupler and the main stove then setting it up so you turned the coupler to open the window and drop in a briquette or two. Sounds like a good little stove, I think I'll build one up and see how much heat it actually produces. Ken.| 8553|8553|2005-08-16 21:35:02|jnikadie|Boat Works|Next time you're near a magazine stand, check out the Fall 2005 copy of Boat Works. On the p6/p7 spread they have a photo that might be of interest ... the caption is a hint: "HIGH AND DRY "The venerable bilge-keeler is a common sight in many parts of the world where big tidal ranges would otherwise limit mooring and anchoring areas. Twin-keeled boats are usually not much good when it comes to going to windward, but for a cruiser there's a lot to be said for the ability to sit upright on the bottom. I saw this boat in Comox, on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Note the poor deep-keel boat in the background. Point proved"| 8554|8550|2005-08-17 11:43:27|cirejay|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I've been researching the Airhead composting toilet in the oct2004 > issue of cruising world and at air headtiolets.com > It looks like an easy way to simplify the comlex and bulky plumbing, > thru hull which plug with barnacles, pump, etc of the standard marine > head. > While the maker is totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy in > charging over $1,000 for less tha $50 worth of plastic and metal, and > only offering it in multiples of 8 or more, I have no doubt that this > will result in many people making their own as it looks quite simplle First off, let me say that I looked at this toilet a couple of years ago and decided that it wasn't for me. Now, let's get to your comments: I couldn't believe that one would need to buy 8 at a time so I went into the site, using your link (well, not really, because your link was wrong, it's airheadtoilet.com) and I don't know were you got the notion that one needed to buy 8 at a time for over $1,000 each. Clearly, the site shows the price of $850 and that is for one toilet. I met the inventor/entrepreneur of this product at a boat show and I sure wouldn't have recognized him from your description, "totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy". He seemed like a totally committed, perhaps somewhat nerdy engineering type; a pretty decent guy. You know, the kind who is part of groups like this:-) I would suggest that you go with your alternative; that is, get yourself $50 worth plastic and metal and defecate in that. eric S/V nebaras| 8555|8550|2005-08-17 12:54:14|seeratlas|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|Eric, why did you decide that the toilet wasn't for you? I've been trying to figure a 'better' way to handle waste, especially with a view towards trying to handle a substantial period between dumping opportunities while in protected waters and otherwise, just trying to leave minimal 'buttprint' on the waterscapes I travel thru. From reading the information on the site, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is. The bowl is apparently designed to drain off the urine, leaving the solid waste to fall into what looks like a large coffee filter :) and then a handle opens a 'hatch' into which the aforementioned 'brew' drops. From there, it appears the urine is just stored, and the solid waste sits around while a 12 volt fan vents it overboard to try and keep the smell out of the boat... I also notice that there is some kind of soil that you buy from this guy to dump in the solid waste portion of the toilet. enzymes? I don't know why a regular portable toilet couldn't be modified to do the same thing. what am i missing here? What did you finally decide on? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I've been researching the Airhead composting toilet in the oct2004 > > issue of cruising world and at air headtiolets.com > > It looks like an easy way to simplify the comlex and bulky > plumbing, > > thru hull which plug with barnacles, pump, etc of the standard > marine > > head. > > While the maker is totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy in > > charging over $1,000 for less tha $50 worth of plastic and metal, > and > > only offering it in multiples of 8 or more, I have no doubt that > this > > will result in many people making their own as it looks quite > simplle > > First off, let me say that I looked at this toilet a couple of years > ago and decided that it wasn't for me. Now, let's get to your > comments: I couldn't believe that one would need to buy 8 at a time > so I went into the site, using your link (well, not really, because > your link was wrong, it's airheadtoilet.com) and I don't know were > you got the notion that one needed to buy 8 at a time for over > $1,000 each. Clearly, the site shows the price of $850 and that is > for one toilet. I met the inventor/entrepreneur of this product at > a boat show and I sure wouldn't have recognized him from your > description, "totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy". He > seemed like a totally committed, perhaps somewhat nerdy engineering > type; a pretty decent guy. You know, the kind who is part of groups > like this:-) > > I would suggest that you go with your alternative; that is, get > yourself $50 worth plastic and metal and defecate in that. > eric S/V nebaras | 8556|8556|2005-08-17 13:19:07|seeratlas|Junk Sail Variation|Periodically someone asks here about junk rigs, came across this interesting variant. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/3445/size/big/sort/1/cat/500 seer| 8557|8550|2005-08-17 13:57:34|Paul Cotter|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|If I am not mistaken (I haven’t looked at the airhead site for some time), the airhead isn’t a true composting toilet, but a dessicating toilet. I think they market a dessicant that one can add the chamber to facilitate drying. This is rather different than adding a “culture” of organisms or a packet of enzymes. As for building one’s own, I don’t think there is any great secret there. Dessicating defecant is nothing really new; pretty much been around since animals first defecated. Separating liquids and solids (and increasing surface area) to promote drying certainly isn’t the intellectual property of the Airhead folks. I think they have a fine product and it seems to work and I applaud them for going through the hassle and expense of marketing it. And it certainly looks nice and tidy. But 2 containers, some seals, a mixer, a fan, and some ducting should do the trick in many climates. It would be difficult to build one that looks so nice really cheap, but it would be quite simple to build one that works. A used portable toilet would be a great starting point. Coming up with a way to forego the coffee filter would be a great step forward. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: 08/17/2005 8:52 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets Eric, why did you decide that the toilet wasn't for you? I've been trying to figure a 'better' way to handle waste, especially with a view towards trying to handle a substantial period between dumping opportunities while in protected waters and otherwise, just trying to leave minimal 'buttprint' on the waterscapes I travel thru. From reading the information on the site, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is. The bowl is apparently designed to drain off the urine, leaving the solid waste to fall into what looks like a large coffee filter :) and then a handle opens a 'hatch' into which the aforementioned 'brew' drops. From there, it appears the urine is just stored, and the solid waste sits around while a 12 volt fan vents it overboard to try and keep the smell out of the boat... I also notice that there is some kind of soil that you buy from this guy to dump in the solid waste portion of the toilet. enzymes? I don't know why a regular portable toilet couldn't be modified to do the same thing. what am i missing here? What did you finally decide on? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I've been researching the Airhead composting toilet in the oct2004 > > issue of cruising world and at air headtiolets.com > > It looks like an easy way to simplify the comlex and bulky > plumbing, > > thru hull which plug with barnacles, pump, etc of the standard > marine > > head. > > While the maker is totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy in > > charging over $1,000 for less tha $50 worth of plastic and metal, > and > > only offering it in multiples of 8 or more, I have no doubt that > this > > will result in many people making their own as it looks quite > simplle > > First off, let me say that I looked at this toilet a couple of years > ago and decided that it wasn't for me. Now, let's get to your > comments: I couldn't believe that one would need to buy 8 at a time > so I went into the site, using your link (well, not really, because > your link was wrong, it's airheadtoilet.com) and I don't know were > you got the notion that one needed to buy 8 at a time for over > $1,000 each. Clearly, the site shows the price of $850 and that is > for one toilet. I met the inventor/entrepreneur of this product at > a boat show and I sure wouldn't have recognized him from your > description, "totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy". He > seemed like a totally committed, perhaps somewhat nerdy engineering > type; a pretty decent guy. You know, the kind who is part of groups > like this:-) > > I would suggest that you go with your alternative; that is, get > yourself $50 worth plastic and metal and defecate in that. > eric S/V nebaras To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8558|8550|2005-08-17 16:53:29|kendall|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > If I am not mistaken (I haven't looked at the airhead site for some > time), the airhead isn't a true composting toilet, but a dessicating > toilet. I think they market a dessicant that one can add the chamber to > facilitate drying. This is rather different than adding a "culture" of > organisms or a packet of enzymes. As for building one's own, I don't > think there is any great secret there. Dessicating defecant is nothing > really new; pretty much been around since animals first defecated. > Separating liquids and solids (and increasing surface area) to promote > drying certainly isn't the intellectual property of the Airhead folks. I > think they have a fine product and it seems to work and I applaud them > for going through the hassle and expense of marketing it. And it > certainly looks nice and tidy. But 2 containers, some seals, a mixer, a > fan, and some ducting should do the trick in many climates. It would be > difficult to build one that looks so nice really cheap, but it would be > quite simple to build one that works. A used portable toilet would be a > great starting point. Coming up with a way to forego the coffee filter > would be a great step forward. I'm thinking the coffee filter helps the mess to slide down without hanging up, anything avilable would work, from old t-shirts to yesterdays paper, it's just that with the coffee filter, the bowl is probably formed to position it in the proper location when simply dropped in place. I'd thought that the toilet couldn't be a real composter, composting takes a while, and you have to have a large enough mass to maintain temperature and moisture levels, and for the size you'd need to be truly composting, I'd rather use a bucket! I'm sure that it would be easy to build one from scratch, wouldn't be as complicated as a holding tank system,someone could knock one up out of f-glass or even sheet metal in a few hours time and have one ready for use. Making it a straight drop to the holding tank (open door before use) would likely eliminate any need for a slider rag. As it is apparently a dessicating type, plumbing some means of heating the tank would likely get rid of the moisture quicker. Ken.| 8559|8550|2005-08-17 17:14:51|cirejay|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Eric, > why did you decide that the toilet wasn't for you? I guess I'm just not that committed. What I did decide was that I wanted to avoid seawater intake as that seems to be the major source of smells plus it eliminates one more thru-hull. While there are freshwater electric toilets out there, I just couldn't bring myself to buy an electric toilet (why does anyone need an electric toilet on a boat) so I rigged a reservoir (kind of old fashion flush style) that is plumbed into the freshwater system (no floats, just a ball valve to fill it) and that feeds directly into the intake of my head. I did it that way because I felt that it was the easiest way to avoid any possibility of contamination of the freshwater system. It may not seem so, but it really is quite simple. As for holding and disposal, I'll be adding treatment and while even that is not permitted in more and more areas, I feel good about it and know that what I'm putting into the environment is much lees bad than what governments all over the world are dropping in. BTW, I'm told that urine really isn't a problem as far as pollution is concerned. > I've been trying to figure a 'better' way to handle waste, especially > with a view towards trying to handle a substantial period between > dumping opportunities while in protected waters and otherwise, just > trying to leave minimal 'buttprint' on the waterscapes I travel thru. Very much in agreement on that. > > From reading the information on the site, I'm not sure I see what the > big deal is. The bowl is apparently designed to drain off the urine, > leaving the solid waste to fall into what looks like a large coffee > filter :) and then a handle opens a 'hatch' into which the > aforementioned 'brew' drops. From there, it appears the urine is just > stored, and the solid waste sits around while a 12 volt fan vents it > overboard to try and keep the smell out of the boat... > > I also notice that there is some kind of soil that you buy from this > guy to dump in the solid waste portion of the toilet. enzymes? > > I don't know why a regular portable toilet couldn't be modified to do > the same thing. I quite agree with you as to your analysis and that it could be replicated, I just don't see myself 'bothering' with such a system in general which is why I decided against it. To each his own. eric S/V nebaras| 8560|8550|2005-08-17 17:29:49|brentswain38|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|A friend imported one into Nanaimo. The 850$ is US$ which, with exchange, duty and shipping came to CDN$1200. Building your own seems a much more realistic option.I could build a dozen for that much. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I've been researching the Airhead composting toilet in the oct2004 > > issue of cruising world and at air headtiolets.com > > It looks like an easy way to simplify the comlex and bulky > plumbing, > > thru hull which plug with barnacles, pump, etc of the standard > marine > > head. > > While the maker is totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy in > > charging over $1,000 for less tha $50 worth of plastic and metal, > and > > only offering it in multiples of 8 or more, I have no doubt that > this > > will result in many people making their own as it looks quite > simplle > > First off, let me say that I looked at this toilet a couple of years > ago and decided that it wasn't for me. Now, let's get to your > comments: I couldn't believe that one would need to buy 8 at a time > so I went into the site, using your link (well, not really, because > your link was wrong, it's airheadtoilet.com) and I don't know were > you got the notion that one needed to buy 8 at a time for over > $1,000 each. Clearly, the site shows the price of $850 and that is > for one toilet. I met the inventor/entrepreneur of this product at > a boat show and I sure wouldn't have recognized him from your > description, "totally unreasonable and incredibly greedy". He > seemed like a totally committed, perhaps somewhat nerdy engineering > type; a pretty decent guy. You know, the kind who is part of groups > like this:-) > > I would suggest that you go with your alternative; that is, get > yourself $50 worth plastic and metal and defecate in that. > eric S/V nebaras | 8561|8550|2005-08-17 17:34:08|Gary|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|Regarding the filters. I read that one lady cruiser just sprays the bowl with water and has disposed of the filters. Says, she does not know why anywone would use a paper filter. She also said in her article that she installed an additional computer fan which draws nearly 0 current to aid in the drying process. If I ever remember that website and article I will send it on. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Eric, > > why did you decide that the toilet wasn't for you? > > I guess I'm just not that committed. What I did decide was that I > wanted to avoid seawater intake as that seems to be the major source > of smells plus it eliminates one more thru-hull. While there are > freshwater electric toilets out there, I just couldn't bring myself > to buy an electric toilet (why does anyone need an electric toilet > on a boat) so I rigged a reservoir (kind of old fashion flush style) > that is plumbed into the freshwater system (no floats, just a ball > valve to fill it) and that feeds directly into the intake of my > head. I did it that way because I felt that it was the easiest way > to avoid any possibility of contamination of the freshwater system. > It may not seem so, but it really is quite simple. > > As for holding and disposal, I'll be adding treatment and while even > that is not permitted in more and more areas, I feel good about it > and know that what I'm putting into the environment is much lees bad > than what governments all over the world are dropping in. BTW, I'm > told that urine really isn't a problem as far as pollution is > concerned. > > > > I've been trying to figure a 'better' way to handle waste, > especially > > with a view towards trying to handle a substantial period between > > dumping opportunities while in protected waters and otherwise, just > > trying to leave minimal 'buttprint' on the waterscapes I travel > thru. > > Very much in agreement on that. > > > > From reading the information on the site, I'm not sure I see what > the > > big deal is. The bowl is apparently designed to drain off the > urine, > > leaving the solid waste to fall into what looks like a large coffee > > filter :) and then a handle opens a 'hatch' into which the > > aforementioned 'brew' drops. From there, it appears the urine is > just > > stored, and the solid waste sits around while a 12 volt fan vents > it > > overboard to try and keep the smell out of the boat... > > > > I also notice that there is some kind of soil that you buy from > this > > guy to dump in the solid waste portion of the toilet. enzymes? > > > > I don't know why a regular portable toilet couldn't be modified to > do > > the same thing. > > I quite agree with you as to your analysis and that it could be > replicated, I just don't see myself 'bothering' with such a system > in general which is why I decided against it. To each his own. > > eric S/V nebaras | 8562|8550|2005-08-17 17:41:12|brentswain38|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|People who have used it for a while say they never use the coffee filtre. They just leave the trap door open while dumping. It took a while to make the mould for the top, but making seats out of that is quick, cheap and easy.A standard head bowl has the wrong shape, with the hole in the wrong place. Itb has to start about 2 1/2 inches from the back edge of the seat.. A friend has been using cedar sawdust for years . He says there is no smell. Perhaps this is why Herreschoff talked of "a "Cedar Bucket" rather than just a bucket. I think the top could be greatly simplified if one just had a cap to drop over the big hole to prevent pissing in it in the night . It could have an eye in it and a stick with a hook on it to lift it off and hang it up prior to dumping. One couple say they had great success with coconut pith bricks available cheaply at garden shoppes. If you aren't relying on microbes, you could use lime, stove ashes, and other naturally occuring microbe killers , eliminating the smell problem. On one building site where I built a boat the outhouse had no smell, just a bucket of woodstove ash and a tin can next to the hole. You just dumped a can of ash down after using it and in mid summer there was no smell. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Eric, > > why did you decide that the toilet wasn't for you? > > I guess I'm just not that committed. What I did decide was that I > wanted to avoid seawater intake as that seems to be the major source > of smells plus it eliminates one more thru-hull. While there are > freshwater electric toilets out there, I just couldn't bring myself > to buy an electric toilet (why does anyone need an electric toilet > on a boat) so I rigged a reservoir (kind of old fashion flush style) > that is plumbed into the freshwater system (no floats, just a ball > valve to fill it) and that feeds directly into the intake of my > head. I did it that way because I felt that it was the easiest way > to avoid any possibility of contamination of the freshwater system. > It may not seem so, but it really is quite simple. > > As for holding and disposal, I'll be adding treatment and while even > that is not permitted in more and more areas, I feel good about it > and know that what I'm putting into the environment is much lees bad > than what governments all over the world are dropping in. BTW, I'm > told that urine really isn't a problem as far as pollution is > concerned. > > > > I've been trying to figure a 'better' way to handle waste, > especially > > with a view towards trying to handle a substantial period between > > dumping opportunities while in protected waters and otherwise, just > > trying to leave minimal 'buttprint' on the waterscapes I travel > thru. > > Very much in agreement on that. > > > > From reading the information on the site, I'm not sure I see what > the > > big deal is. The bowl is apparently designed to drain off the > urine, > > leaving the solid waste to fall into what looks like a large coffee > > filter :) and then a handle opens a 'hatch' into which the > > aforementioned 'brew' drops. From there, it appears the urine is > just > > stored, and the solid waste sits around while a 12 volt fan vents > it > > overboard to try and keep the smell out of the boat... > > > > I also notice that there is some kind of soil that you buy from > this > > guy to dump in the solid waste portion of the toilet. enzymes? > > > > I don't know why a regular portable toilet couldn't be modified to > do > > the same thing. > > I quite agree with you as to your analysis and that it could be > replicated, I just don't see myself 'bothering' with such a system > in general which is why I decided against it. To each his own. > > eric S/V nebaras | 8563|8550|2005-08-17 20:01:22|Paul Cotter|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|A question for those who have used, or have some experience with, airheads: Does the agitator rotate at high or low speed? Seems like a high speed gizmo would be preferable in a dessicator head; it would sling things around, thus making lots of little pieces that dry quickly (sorry about the graphic nature of the email) A slow speed type would be more beneficial in a true composting head. Anyway, does anyone know the answer? If a high speed agitator is used, it might be good to use 2 covers, as the inside of the storage container cover might get spatter (texture?). With one cover, the underside of it may not be something folks would want to have to deal with on a regular basis, as it would be covered with spatter. I agree the “filter” could be dispensed with provided the hole is appropriately sized/placed or a cleanup routine is incorporated. Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: 08/17/2005 1:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets People who have used it for a while say they never use the coffee filtre. They just leave the trap door open while dumping. It took a while to make the mould for the top, but making seats out of that is quick, cheap and easy.A standard head bowl has the wrong shape, with the hole in the wrong place. Itb has to start about 2 1/2 inches from the back edge of the seat.. A friend has been using cedar sawdust for years . He says there is no smell. Perhaps this is why Herreschoff talked of "a "Cedar Bucket" rather than just a bucket. I think the top could be greatly simplified if one just had a cap to drop over the big hole to prevent pissing in it in the night . It could have an eye in it and a stick with a hook on it to lift it off and hang it up prior to dumping. One couple say they had great success with coconut pith bricks available cheaply at garden shoppes. If you aren't relying on microbes, you could use lime, stove ashes, and other naturally occuring microbe killers , eliminating the smell problem. On one building site where I built a boat the outhouse had no smell, just a bucket of woodstove ash and a tin can next to the hole. You just dumped a can of ash down after using it and in mid summer there was no smell. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Eric, > > why did you decide that the toilet wasn't for you? > > I guess I'm just not that committed. What I did decide was that I > wanted to avoid seawater intake as that seems to be the major source > of smells plus it eliminates one more thru-hull. While there are > freshwater electric toilets out there, I just couldn't bring myself > to buy an electric toilet (why does anyone need an electric toilet > on a boat) so I rigged a reservoir (kind of old fashion flush style) > that is plumbed into the freshwater system (no floats, just a ball > valve to fill it) and that feeds directly into the intake of my > head. I did it that way because I felt that it was the easiest way > to avoid any possibility of contamination of the freshwater system. > It may not seem so, but it really is quite simple. > > As for holding and disposal, I'll be adding treatment and while even > that is not permitted in more and more areas, I feel good about it > and know that what I'm putting into the environment is much lees bad > than what governments all over the world are dropping in. BTW, I'm > told that urine really isn't a problem as far as pollution is > concerned. > > > > I've been trying to figure a 'better' way to handle waste, > especially > > with a view towards trying to handle a substantial period between > > dumping opportunities while in protected waters and otherwise, just > > trying to leave minimal 'buttprint' on the waterscapes I travel > thru. > > Very much in agreement on that. > > > > From reading the information on the site, I'm not sure I see what > the > > big deal is. The bowl is apparently designed to drain off the > urine, > > leaving the solid waste to fall into what looks like a large coffee > > filter :) and then a handle opens a 'hatch' into which the > > aforementioned 'brew' drops. From there, it appears the urine is > just > > stored, and the solid waste sits around while a 12 volt fan vents > it > > overboard to try and keep the smell out of the boat... > > > > I also notice that there is some kind of soil that you buy from > this > > guy to dump in the solid waste portion of the toilet. enzymes? > > > > I don't know why a regular portable toilet couldn't be modified to > do > > the same thing. > > I quite agree with you as to your analysis and that it could be > replicated, I just don't see myself 'bothering' with such a system > in general which is why I decided against it. To each his own. > > eric S/V nebaras To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8564|8550|2005-08-17 20:02:54|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|I spoke with the inventor of this toilet at a trade show about two years ago. The show was slow and we talked for nearly an hour. It IS a composting toilet, it DOES use bacteria to break down the waste, and aeration of the compost pile is done by agitation with a crank on the side that you give a couple of turns each time you use it. The inventor suggests that you use peat moss to start the process, and he also supplies an enzyme that will speed up the process. It already has a very low power computer type fan and a duct to draw air into the head around the rim and exhaust it outside so there is no smell. The urine is captured in a jug because the acidity of urine kills the bacteria that does the composting. Since the composting process DOES take longer than the time to fill the container he recommends a second container for long cruises. When the composting is done you can spread it on your garden. If you aim is good you can do away with the filter paper, which composts well. His aim was to eliminate the need to use water to clean the bowl. The filter paper accomplishes that nicely. He wasn't aiming to sell this toilet as a replacement for your cedar bucket. He is aiming to replace the pumpout toilet, holding tank, macerator pump, hoses and electricity. Compared to all of that he has succeeded quite admirably, if you have an open mind for something different. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Cotter" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets If I am not mistaken (I haven't looked at the airhead site for some time), the airhead isn't a true composting toilet, but a dessicating toilet. I think they market a dessicant that one can add the chamber to facilitate drying. This is rather different than adding a "culture" of organisms or a packet of enzymes. As for building one's own, I don't think there is any great secret there. Dessicating defecant is nothing really new; pretty much been around since animals first defecated. Separating liquids and solids (and increasing surface area) to promote drying certainly isn't the intellectual property of the Airhead folks. I think they have a fine product and it seems to work and I applaud them for going through the hassle and expense of marketing it. And it certainly looks nice and tidy. But 2 containers, some seals, a mixer, a fan, and some ducting should do the trick in many climates. It would be difficult to build one that looks so nice really cheap, but it would be quite simple to build one that works. A used portable toilet would be a great starting point. Coming up with a way to forego the coffee filter would be a great step forward. | 8565|8550|2005-08-17 20:19:40|cirejay|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > I spoke with the inventor of this toilet at a trade show about two years > ago. The show was slow and we talked for nearly an hour. I too talked with him for quite awhile, it was at the Atlantic City Sail Expo. Pretty much the same conversation. >...His aim was to eliminate the need to use water to clean the bowl. > The filter paper accomplishes that nicely. > > He wasn't aiming to sell this toilet as a replacement for your cedar bucket. > He is aiming to replace the pumpout toilet, holding tank, macerator pump, > hoses and electricity. Compared to all of that he has succeeded quite > admirably, if you have an open mind for something different. Even though I decided to not go that route, I quite agree on your take. eric S/V Nebaras| 8566|8550|2005-08-17 21:00:26|seeratlas|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|Ok, Let me get this straight. I gather each solid waste 'container' has a built in agitator? If not, how do you keep the 'process' going? or just 'shake it around' :) heheh, and what about continued venting of the 'cartridge' you've removed? Now, If i remember the discussion we had about the other composting toilet, the problem was the size of the thing, on account of the rotating drum. Soo... if we came up with something that made it easy for men (no problem) and women, (bigger problem) to divert off the urine, (I hate to say it but there is a group in India that preach imbibing urine for health reasons...so it can't be too dangerous, hell even one of their Prime Ministers was a practitioner..scary eh? ) so I'm buying into the dumping urine (at least in moderate quantities) is not likely to cause the fish to start leaping out onto the bank... Then we need the 'straight hole shot' design into some kind of drum? (needs to be turned periodically right?), how about a 'pony keg' sized drum? something light enough to be swapped out? perhaps ? Seems like the whole thing demonstrably works as long as not too many people are on the boat for too many consecutive days...hmm now how to do all that with something that looks presentable, will last, and at a minimal cost? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > I spoke with the inventor of this toilet at a trade show about two > years > > ago. The show was slow and we talked for nearly an hour. > > I too talked with him for quite awhile, it was at the Atlantic City > Sail Expo. Pretty much the same conversation. > > > > >...His aim was to eliminate the need to use water to clean the > bowl. > > The filter paper accomplishes that nicely. > > > > He wasn't aiming to sell this toilet as a replacement for your > cedar bucket. > > He is aiming to replace the pumpout toilet, holding tank, > macerator pump, > > hoses and electricity. Compared to all of that he has succeeded > quite > > admirably, if you have an open mind for something different. > > Even though I decided to not go that route, I quite agree on your > take. > eric S/V Nebaras | 8567|8567|2005-08-19 09:18:05|seeratlas|Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to build and more water resistant. Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? seer| 8568|8567|2005-08-19 09:50:59|Courtney Thomas|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 08:17, seeratlas wrote: > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > build and more water resistant. > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > Why not just leave a steel flange on the hull and bolt the aluminum top over it, i.e. outside the flange, with serious rubber seals between, as well as inside and outside the join. That should avoid contact between differing metals except at the bolt holes. To further immobilize the join, an inside flange could be welded onto the aluminum top to prevent the steel flange's upward movement, which, of course, would need to also be 'rubber' covered but could be part of the aforementioned seal. Downward movement would be prevented by the deck itself. You'd also have a choice of bolts, not necessarily steel or aluminum, whatever is preferable in the corrosion hierarchy. Do they make Kevlar, or something similar, bolts ? Even if real expensive, might be worth it :-) The aircraft industry might have the best solution for this. The option of sealing all this, including all bolt holes would still be available. In fact before the final bolt tightening you could inject a shot of sealant of choice. Another anticipated benefit would be the possibility of relatively simply removing the cabintop for any serious interior maintenance. Nothing lasts forever :-) but, I would guess if the flange is 'tall' enough with complete flexible-seal type covering, you'd be good. Courtney| 8569|8549|2005-08-19 15:37:44|nortje_wynand|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Brent, What many overlook on painting a boat, is the overcoat times between paint layers and "paint systems". Some paints are not really compatable with others and can cost one dearly in the long run. It is best to stick to a manufactures system - primer, under & top coats - especially with epoxies. As for overcoat times; I personally steers clear of pre-prime plates for this very reasons. I believe it is best to blast the whole thing over (I assumed touching-up pre-primed plates) and start with a complete paint system and stay within the manufacturers overcoat times. The saving will be in the long term investment of a proper paint job --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > When you ask a sandblaster if you only have to blast where the primer > has failed he will inevitably advocate blasting the entire hull, even > where the primer is good, to white metal. > What do you expect him to advocate? That which reduces his potential > income from the job? Not likely.He will invariably advocate uneccesary > extra work if that results in more money for him. > Duhhhh. > Brent | 8570|8567|2005-08-19 17:48:32|Earl Burgess|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > build and more water resistant. > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 8571|8567|2005-08-19 18:36:59|Dan McKee|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|As Earl says, its best to have the steel flange up off the deck to get the dissimilar joint out of standing water. The flanges on both metals should turn inward to protect the hardware. UHMW-PE strips between the flanges are held with steel bolts through first, a steel heavy fender washer, then a UHMW washer of like size, then through an oversized hole in the aluminum flange with a UHMW or nylon spacer around the bolt with the o.d. the size of the hole through the aluminum and a thickness of that of the aluminum, then through the UHMW strip and tapped into the steel flange. 5200 will seal the joints. The resiliency of the UHMW will negate the need of lock washers but the bolts should be tightened periodically not because of loosening but for the "creep" of UHMW over time. I have just built my second boat with an aluminum cabin and just thin synthetic felt will inhibit condensation and insulate well for moderate climates. Aluminum is wonderfully easy to work with. Consider using rolled sections for strength and beauty. The difference in weight from that of steel is worth the effort. Earl Burgess wrote:In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > build and more water resistant. > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8572|8567|2005-08-19 20:19:51|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|The thing that scares me about the rubber or other seal thing is how long is it going to last, can you imagine having to take the thing apart and redo it? Lifting the house off? hmmm. My problem with the navy experience is that the structure they're working on is already many tens of feet above the water, whereas on a boat this side you can expect the decks to be awash with some frequency depending on your skill, and where you plan to go... How have the Navy joints held up? I can see a double flanged aluminum cabin top set down over upright steel cabinsides, that at least would be some inches up off the deck. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Burgess" wrote: > In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a > steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was > a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the > rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. > > Earl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > > > > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > > build and more water resistant. > > > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 8573|8567|2005-08-19 20:23:41|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Is aluminum pipe suitable for the hand rails and more importantly, affixxing the blocks etc. for the sail fairleads? I was planning on using stainless . I guess I really don't have enough experience with aluminum to get a feel for all the differences that would be involved. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee wrote: > As Earl says, its best to have the steel flange up off the deck to get the dissimilar joint out of standing water. The flanges on both metals should turn inward to protect the hardware. UHMW-PE strips between the flanges are held with steel bolts through first, a steel heavy fender washer, then a UHMW washer of like size, then through an oversized hole in the aluminum flange with a UHMW or nylon spacer around the bolt with the o.d. the size of the hole through the aluminum and a thickness of that of the aluminum, then through the UHMW strip and tapped into the steel flange. 5200 will seal the joints. The resiliency of the UHMW will negate the need of lock washers but the bolts should be tightened periodically not because of loosening but for the "creep" of UHMW over time. I have just built my second boat with an aluminum cabin and just thin synthetic felt will inhibit condensation and insulate well for moderate climates. Aluminum is wonderfully easy to work with. Consider using > rolled sections for strength and beauty. The difference in weight from that of steel is worth the effort. > > Earl Burgess wrote:In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a > steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was > a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the > rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. > > Earl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > > > > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > > build and more water resistant. > > > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8574|8567|2005-08-19 23:38:50|kendall|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > The thing that scares me about the rubber or other seal thing is how > long is it going to last, can you imagine having to take the thing > apart and redo it? Lifting the house off? hmmm. > > My problem with the navy experience is that the structure they're > working on is already many tens of feet above the water, whereas on a > boat this side you can expect the decks to be awash with some > frequency depending on your skill, and where you plan to go... > > How have the Navy joints held up? I can see a double flanged aluminum > cabin top set down over upright steel cabinsides, that at least would > be some inches up off the deck. > > seer > I don't realy think they would fail too quickly, especially with some of the modern synthetic sealers, and even with rubber seals, I've torn out some 40 and 50 year old equipment with rubber seals that were in good enough shape to reuse. Enough bolts or rivets, with insulation as described in a previous post would ensure enough pressure to maintain a seal. A carefull design on the joint would make sure weather/waves wouldn't have any real force when they hit the seal, a flat inside flange on both hull and cabin, which would handle the actual sealing and holding, an upright flange on the hull around that, and a leg that came off the cabin (think "h"), and sat over the upright flange, you could play a firehouse on that all day and odds are the seal wouldn't even get wet, if serious overkill was desired, put a split neopreme foam tube on the hull upright so it would press against the inside of the h, it would give you two independant seals. also, regarding repair, I've lifted entire houses a foot from thier foundations and it is surprisingly easy to do with basic off the shelf tools. Ken.| 8575|8567|2005-08-20 03:26:06|sae140|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|I see two problems with the approach being recommended, when applied to small yachts rather than ships - one being the shear stress which will be imposed on the much lighter aluminium sheet around the bolt heads if green water was shipped. The other being the logistics of construction - it being difficult to fabricate welded cabin sides to mate against a vertical joint without encountering distortion. A horizontal mating joint doesn't have this problem, but by it's very nature is more prone to leaks, although an external lip over the joint would certainly help. I would have thought that in these hi-tech days there should be some means of brazing aluminium directly to stainless ? Or with a horizontal joint in mind, perhaps use localised double thickness ally, sandwiched between stainless, s/s through-bolted together with wet-sanded epoxy ? Colin| 8577|8512|2005-08-20 05:24:21|ed_lithgow|Re: Testing testing|Hi All My experience of white water is limited to kayaking, where the thrust vectoring options are greater and the investment at risk is a lot less. Clearly a large boat requires a speed differential between it and the water for steerage, and going slower rather than faster at least means you won't hit things so hard, and gives you time to think, though in the situation outlined I might not want to. In a more sedate context, unpowered Thames sailing barges are said to have maintained steerage way when drifting up or down river on the tide, by dragging just the curved head of the big Fishermans anchor in the mud to slow them relative to the stream. There's a colourful watermans term for it that I unfortunately can't remember. I believe in the US the drift boat dories drag rounded weights (less likely to snag) for a similar purpose on quite rapid rivers. Talking of snagging, I think someone in the "Cheapo parasea anchor" thread suggested that an advantage of using the anchor as a drogue would be automatic anchoring in the event of "running out of water". From the security of my armchair, suddenly becoming "hard anchored" in shoaling water while running before a storm sounds like something to be avoided if at all possible, though I suppose better than running into the base of a cliff. Regards, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" wrote: > Carl, > Yes you are correct. I am also a kayaker. And I have backpaddled > the same way and for the same reasons in Baja waiting for the right > wave and angle to jet into a seacave. It does work just like you said! > Sugar > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > > Gary, > > > > No realy, with the boat moving slower than the current, the boat > will act as a rudder and move the boat ACCROSS the current in that > direction. > > | 8578|8531|2005-08-20 05:42:02|ed_lithgow|Re: woodstove poderings|Hi All I looked at a "new age traveller" hippy-type Ford A - Series homemade motorhome many years ago that had a woodstove in it made of a propane cylinder with appropriate holes, doors, flue etc. The owner said it worked well. I didn't buy the van (I have many such "one that got away" stories) so can't confirm this, but the steel is fairly thick and it starts out gastight, and in the UK there are quite a lot of them lying around, different sizes. I guess you'd want to cook it over a slow flame with the valve open for a bit before cutting/welding, somewhere where a large bang wouldn't cause trouble, like, say, Canada? Regards, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > Disregard that last question. I drew it out and figured one could just > make a loading door above the fire box (tube?). > > > Cheers > > Paul | 8579|8567|2005-08-20 09:22:17|Courtney Thomas|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Just wonderin' what might be lost to boarding seas due to the difference in strength of the aluminum vs the steel cabin ? Thank you, Courtney On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 17:36, Dan McKee wrote: > As Earl says, its best to have the steel flange up off the deck to get the dissimilar joint out of standing water. The flanges on both metals should turn inward to protect the hardware. UHMW-PE strips between the flanges are held with steel bolts through first, a steel heavy fender washer, then a UHMW washer of like size, then through an oversized hole in the aluminum flange with a UHMW or nylon spacer around the bolt with the o.d. the size of the hole through the aluminum and a thickness of that of the aluminum, then through the UHMW strip and tapped into the steel flange. 5200 will seal the joints. The resiliency of the UHMW will negate the need of lock washers but the bolts should be tightened periodically not because of loosening but for the "creep" of UHMW over time. I have just built my second boat with an aluminum cabin and just thin synthetic felt will inhibit condensation and insulate well for moderate climates. Aluminum is wonderfully easy to work with. Consider using > rolled sections for strength and beauty. The difference in weight from that of steel is worth the effort. > > Earl Burgess wrote:In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a > steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was > a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the > rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. > > Earl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > > > > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > > build and more water resistant. > > > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8580|8567|2005-08-20 10:55:38|nortje_wynand|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|To get a bit off track. During 1990 I commisioned the Dix 38, then called the Force 38, for my boatyard. What was really wayout at the time was the fact that it was a steel hull with a fibreglass deck. This was decided on because it really takes longer to built a steel deck than the hull. Advantages were that weight was taken away where one least wants it. Also, it is cooler than a steel deck and building time cut short by moulding the decks in a female mould. The beauty with fibreglass is that one is not "limited" to shape and on a completed boat, many was suprised to learn that it was in fact a steel boat when stepping aboard. The hull had a flatbar flange along the sheer on which the deck mated. A generous amount of SikaFlex sealer was applied and the deck bolted to the deckbeam with an extruded alumnium toe rail as on a fibreglass boat. Needless to say, all holes prior to fitting the screws were filled with the sealer and when the deck was fitted, the joint was then sealed on the inside with a generous amount of SikaFlex again. This joint was waterproof and solid. When I closed shop, Dudley reverted back to a steel deck for the Dix 38.| 8581|8581|2005-08-20 14:01:04|Robert Mitchell|peristaltic pumps for bilge pump|A while back, there was a discussion of bilge pumps. Has anyone considered peristaltic pumps? I've been fooling around with a couple of old 115V pumps from a 'Wagner Power Painter'. They are very simple, and best of all, keep the water/grease out of the motor and the tubing can be cleaned or replaced. They can also raise several feet of 'head'. They aren't really high volume however. Anyone doing this? Rob| 8582|8582|2005-08-20 17:16:29|joefloki|Kasco drawing|As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for rivers. I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore necessary) Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? Thanks, Gottfried, Vienna, Austria| 8583|8567|2005-08-20 18:07:29|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Did you ever get any feedback on whether they ever developed any leaks in that area? The reason I was thinking only of the aluminum house is that my guess is in these origami hulls, that the deck, at least the part you're walking on, has a lot to do with the finished dimensions of the hull, and pretty much lock the shape 'in' when they are all welded up. Once the side decks are in, would seem a relatively simple matter to weld up the cabin sides in steel then use an aluminum cabin top. Since my cabin top is relatively long and dimensionally simple, it might just be feasible to build the cabin top with a slight overhang, and an "H" type of vertical aluminum double flange that would fit down on top of the raised cabinsides like a tongue in groove situation. In that instance perhaps merely laying a doublewide sheet of whatever sealing material is best suited, centered over the upraised steel edge, then when the top was lowered it would fold the sealing sheet over giving complete isolation to the top. At that point would be a simple matter to drill the holes as required, insert whatever washer/bushings were required then torque the thing down. Water would have a helluva time getting in up and over that seal I would think, especially being up off the deck and protected by the slight overhang. Hmmm, I wonder if just fabricating the "H" seal and fitting it with a substitute for the seal and leaving it on the cabin top would work. Then you could weld the beam supports up to the "H" then the roof plate onto the whole thing in situ. When it was done, then use straps affixxed to the welded on handholds/railing/sheet track and lift it up a bit, remove the substitute 'seal' glop on your sealant, lay the sealing sheet down over the steel (Maybe with an extra bead in the bottom/top of the 'H" so as to make sure there was no way the cabinside top edge could press thru to and contact the alumimun at the high arch of the "H", then lower the top down, making sure the sealing sheet stays in place and doesn't ball up. Walk around the edge a bit to make sure the steel is seated all the way up the H, and then drill your holes, place your bushings, washers, some extra 'goop' and tighten the sucker down. Go around the edges and cut the protruding sealing sheet flush with the bottom of the H, on the inside and outside, and you should be good to go. :) Question is how much weight would you save, and how much harder is that going to make the installation of suitable fittings on the cabin top. I suppose you could do the same thing using only a few inches of inside vertical steel lip on the inside edges of the side decks and do the entire house in aluminum using an "n" type shape welded to the bottom of the now aluminum cabinsides so it would similarly engage the steel lip, just lower to the deck. If the outside of the 'n' was the aluminum cabinside itself, the inside could have the overlapping part of the n welded on there, where once installed and foamed over, the seam would not be visible in any event. That construction would save more weight, but the seam would spend more time in the water, and would be more visible, bolts etc. dunno how you would make that look "nice". Plus, now you've got to rethink you're woodstove pipe thru deck ...hmmm I dunno, seems to me you'd have to see a lot of weight saved to make it worthwhile. On my 43 design, I think my entire cabintop is some 13 feet long and at its widest, something over 9' wide. Course, with an aluminum main hatch and the various other hatches on that cabin top, that would also save some weight, as would the complete 'handrail' system that goes down both sides. Hmmm, have to study more on aluminum :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > To get a bit off track. During 1990 I commisioned the Dix 38, then > called the Force 38, for my boatyard. What was really wayout at the > time was the fact that it was a steel hull with a fibreglass deck. > This was decided on because it really takes longer to built a steel > deck than the hull. > > Advantages were that weight was taken away where one least wants it. > Also, it is cooler than a steel deck and building time cut short by > moulding the decks in a female mould. The beauty with fibreglass is > that one is not "limited" to shape and on a completed boat, many was > suprised to learn that it was in fact a steel boat when stepping aboard. > > The hull had a flatbar flange along the sheer on which the deck mated. > A generous amount of SikaFlex sealer was applied and the deck bolted > to the deckbeam with an extruded alumnium toe rail as on a fibreglass > boat. Needless to say, all holes prior to fitting the screws were > filled with the sealer and when the deck was fitted, the joint was > then sealed on the inside with a generous amount of SikaFlex again. > This joint was waterproof and solid. > > When I closed shop, Dudley reverted back to a steel deck for the Dix 38. | 8584|8582|2005-08-20 19:03:49|seeratlas|Re: Kasco drawing|Is this the kind of thing you're looking for? http://trawler.ca/Motorsailer.htm seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > rivers. > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore necessary) > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > Thanks, > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8585|8582|2005-08-20 21:06:36|jp4sail|Re: Kasco drawing|Hi Take a look at "Puffin" from Ted Brewer (www.tedbrewer.com) JPaes --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > rivers. > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore necessary) > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > Thanks, > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8586|8582|2005-08-21 02:42:21|Puck III|Re: Kasco drawing|Hi Gottfried , welcome to Vienna :-) in the Med the shallowed draft is most usefull to enter the small harbours and inlets , if you are lucky it could also help to find a marinaberth more easely . is 10,5m X 3,3m especialy the beam the max for a proposed berth, cause modern designs are ususly beamyer ??? You could have a look at more than 150 pics in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ and see if you like any of the superstructures with inside steering you find there . The SWAIN hull and or buildingmethod will probably have the quickest building time , and a different coach is easy to design. Give us an example of the hulltype you fancy so we can direct you. I have some interesting directions , but you should try to make the most precise designgoal. A fisherman style finish in steel is a good idea for the med where many people renting boats are just starting sailing , sailing in Greece and Turkey comes with a garantee of beeing hit hard many times during the season :-) so you better be prepared before starting . Good luck with your project. Old Ben from Belgium --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > rivers. > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore necessary) > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > Thanks, > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8587|8587|2005-08-21 02:58:13|Puck III|Free Boat Design Program|http://www.freeship.org/ worth looking into ??? Old Ben| 8588|8582|2005-08-21 05:00:16|joefloki|Re: Kasco drawing|Thank you very much ! Gottfried --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Is this the kind of thing you're looking for? > http://trawler.ca/Motorsailer.htm > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > rivers. > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > necessary) > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > Thanks, > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8589|8582|2005-08-21 05:02:51|joefloki|Re: Kasco drawing|Thanks ! Gottfried --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > Hi > > Take a look at "Puffin" from Ted Brewer (www.tedbrewer.com) > JPaes > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > rivers. > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > The boat should suit my wife an d me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > necessary) > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > Thanks, > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8590|8567|2005-08-21 07:03:49|Earl Burgess|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Have been through several significant storms on those ships. no leaks, some damage to ancillary items (antennas, yardarms, etc.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > Just wonderin' what might be lost to boarding seas due to the difference > in strength of the aluminum vs the steel cabin ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 17:36, Dan McKee wrote: > > As Earl says, its best to have the steel flange up off the deck to get the dissimilar joint out of standing water. The flanges on both metals should turn inward to protect the hardware. UHMW-PE strips between the flanges are held with steel bolts through first, a steel heavy fender washer, then a UHMW washer of like size, then through an oversized hole in the aluminum flange with a UHMW or nylon spacer around the bolt with the o.d. the size of the hole through the aluminum and a thickness of that of the aluminum, then through the UHMW strip and tapped into the steel flange. 5200 will seal the joints. The resiliency of the UHMW will negate the need of lock washers but the bolts should be tightened periodically not because of loosening but for the "creep" of UHMW over time. I have just built my second boat with an aluminum cabin and just thin synthetic felt will inhibit condensation and insulate well for moderate climates. Aluminum is wonderfully easy to work with. Consider using > > rolled sections for strength and beauty. The difference in weight from that of steel is worth the effort. > > > > Earl Burgess wrote:In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a > > steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was > > a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the > > rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. > > > > Earl > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > > > > > > > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > > > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > > > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > > > > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > > > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > > > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > > > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > > > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > > > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > > > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > > > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > > > build and more water resistant. > > > > > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > > > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > > > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > > > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > > > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > > > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > > > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 8591|8587|2005-08-21 07:36:17|jim dorey|Re: Free Boat Design Program|On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:58:02 -0300, Puck III wrote: > http://www.freeship.org/ > > worth looking into ??? > Old Ben little much for my blue foam and laminate dingies, but it looks nice, with much possibility for more than boats. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8592|8582|2005-08-21 10:25:24|Puck III|Re: Kasco drawing|A nice boat in the 10m dimension was and remains " La Bete " from an Old Salt Designer my Pal : Yves Betin , who is over 80 now , but his designs and the boats he has build where years ahead of their time . You could have a look at some pics I posted in Mars in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSTrawler/ a Group with 1 member :-) cause the interested guy bought himself a fine second-hand steel centerboarder for a price he could not refuse :-) I sailed BeteBelge.jpg personaly , trips from St Malo to St Tropez and to CasaBlanca Moroco where done in comfort and with speed . Gaffprelim11 and COR1 shows a collapsable and easy new and older fisherman rig , perfect for the Med. You could have a large Wheelhouse in the back of the boat where it belongs , and a centercockpit wich is a great asset in the Med , where berthing astern is usual , cause you need to anchor and reverse in many ports, so nobody walking the key sees inside your cockpit, and in bad weather the helsman allways keeps an eye on any crewmember manoeuvering in the safety of an enclosed cockpit !! You will have to use a bit of imagination to see how this accomodation , nothing new see the Benford plans and the Norhaven 51 project sure could be fine for a couple with occasional friends visiting. For those interested in a fast motorsailor the engine instalation was revolutionary in the 60thies . ( Belgian Bete was equiped with the usual direct drive) Hoping this pics and plans are of some use for your project . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Gottfried , welcome to Vienna :-) > in the Med the shallowed draft is most usefull to enter the > small harbours and inlets , if you are lucky it could also > help to find a marinaberth more easely . > is 10,5m X 3,3m especialy the beam the max for a proposed berth, > cause modern designs are ususly beamyer ??? > > You could have a look at more than 150 pics in : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > and see if you like any of the superstructures with > inside steering you find there . > > The SWAIN hull and or buildingmethod will probably have the quickest > building time , and a different coach is easy to design. > Give us an example of the hulltype you fancy so we can direct you. > > I have some interesting directions , but you should try > to make the most precise designgoal. > > A fisherman style finish in steel is a good idea for the med > where many people renting boats are just starting sailing , > sailing in Greece and Turkey comes with a garantee of beeing > hit hard many times during the season :-) so you better > be prepared before starting . > > Good luck with your project. > Old Ben from Belgium > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" > wrote: > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since > many > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest > of > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should > be > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > rivers. > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way > of > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit > me. > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length > 10 > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed > no > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > necessary) > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > Thanks, > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8593|8582|2005-08-21 12:39:04|seeratlas|Re: Kasco drawing|Gottfried, I should have said welcome to the group, but I have to ask, how does "joefloki" become Gottfried? heheh Anyway, I wanted to ask what you didn't like about Brent's hulls? The deck and house are easily modified during construction and as for the hull shape, i would think in the bilge keel plan his 31 or 36 would be more than suitable for your med'ing. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > rivers. > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore necessary) > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > Thanks, > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8594|8531|2005-08-21 13:03:09|jnikadie|Re: woodstove poderings|regarding cutting/welding tanks/cylinders that have been filled with flammable liquids/gasses ... wouldn't first filling them with water and then emptying them displace all explosive gasses? > I looked at a "new age traveller" hippy-type Ford A - Series > homemade motorhome many years ago that had a woodstove in it made of > a propane cylinder with appropriate holes, doors, flue etc. The > owner said it worked well. I didn't buy the van (I have many > such "one that got away" stories) so can't confirm this, but the > steel is fairly thick and it starts out gastight, and in the UK > there are quite a lot of them lying around, different sizes. > > I guess you'd want to cook it over a slow flame with the valve open > for a bit before cutting/welding, somewhere where a large bang > wouldn't cause trouble, like, say, Canada? > > Regards, Ed Lithgow | 8595|8531|2005-08-22 00:56:15|kendall|Re: woodstove poderings|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > regarding cutting/welding tanks/cylinders that have been filled with > flammable liquids/gasses ... wouldn't first filling them with water > and then emptying them displace all explosive gasses? > Some of the problems with tanks and so on is that when cutting or welding them with a torch some of the gas enters the tank unburned, then when the hole gets large enough to let enough free oxygen, or the torch sends more oxygen into the tank, you have an explosive mixture just waiting for the worse possible time to say hello. I have arc welded on tanks after filling them with water and had no trouble, and I'll cut them with a metal muncher blade, or cutting wheel, but stay away from tanks with torches. Ken| 8596|8582|2005-08-22 03:14:54|joefloki|Re: Kasco drawing|Thank you very much, nice photo. I am looking aroung what is available. I have time to decide. Greetings, Gottfried --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > A nice boat in the 10m dimension was and remains " La Bete " > from an Old Salt Designer my Pal : Yves Betin , > who is over 80 now , but his designs and the boats he > has build where years ahead of their time . > You could have a look at some pics I posted in Mars in : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSTrawler/ > a Group with 1 member :-) cause the interested guy > bought himself a fine second-hand steel centerboarder > for a price he could not refuse :-) > I sailed BeteBelge.jpg personaly , trips from St Malo > to St Tropez and to CasaBlanca Moroco where done in > comfort and with speed . > Gaffprelim11 and COR1 shows a collapsable and easy > new and older fisherman rig , perfect for the Med. > You could have a large Wheelhouse in the back of the > boat where it belongs , and a centercockpit wich is > a great asset in the Med , where berthing astern is > usual , cause you need to anchor and reverse in many ports, > so nobody walking the key sees inside your cockpit, > and in bad weather the helsman allways keeps an eye > on any crewmember manoeuvering in the safety of an > enclosed cockpit !! > You will have to use a bit of imagination to see how > this accomodation , nothing new see the Benford plans > and the Norhaven 51 project sure could be fine for a > couple with occasional friends visiting. > For those interested in a fast motorsailor the engine > instalation was revolutionary in the 60thies . > ( Belgian Bete was equiped with the usual direct drive) > > Hoping this pics and plans are of some use > for your project . > > Old Ben > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Gottfried , welcome to Vienna :-) > > in the Med the shallowed draft is most usefull to enter the > > small harbours and inlets , if you are lucky it could also > > help to find a marinaberth more easely . > > is 10,5m X 3,3m especialy the beam the max for a proposed berth, > > cause modern designs are ususly beamyer ??? > > > > You could have a look at more than 150 pics in : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > > and see if you like any of the superstructures with > > inside steering you find there . > > > > The SWAIN hull and or buildingmethod will probably have the > quickest > > building time , and a different coach is easy to design. > > Give us an example of the hulltype you fancy so we can direct you. > > > > I have some interesting directions , but you should try > > to make the most precise designgoal. > > > > A fisherman style finish in steel is a good idea for the med > > where many people renting boats are just starting sailing , > > sailing in Greece and Turkey comes with a garantee of beeing > > hit hard many times during the season :-) so you better > > be prepared before starting . > > > > Good luck with your project. > > Old Ben from Belgium > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" > > wrote: > > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since > > many > > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the > rest > > of > > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself > should > > be > > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding > for > > > rivers. > > > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the > way > > of > > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not > fit > > me. > > > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: > Length > > 10 > > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long > steering > > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: > lange, > > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing > (speed > > no > > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > > necessary) > > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8597|8582|2005-08-22 03:30:24|joefloki|Re: Kasco drawing|"joefloki" was once used by a friend on me, and I don´t know why, but I kept this at least for the internet. I never said that I did not like Brent´s hulls, I am investigating all possibilites, I am not under time pressure. So lets wait and see what comes out. I am also investigating Bruce Roberts boats. what do you think aobout his boats. I actually like them and I am in contact with them meanwhile. His website is http://www.bruceroberts.com/. A man named "Anton Luft" is promoting also a system similar to the ORIGAMI, his website is http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/. I phoned with this man, but did not come along with him: He does not allow that the hull would get manufactured by a company and some other things. And also I do not like the shape of his boats. But I would like to know, if you know his boats and if you have heard anything about him. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Gottfried, > I should have said welcome to the group, but I have to ask, how does > "joefloki" become Gottfried? heheh > > Anyway, I wanted to ask what you didn't like about Brent's hulls? The > deck and house are easily modified during construction and as for the > hull shape, i would think in the bilge keel plan his 31 or 36 would be > more than suitable for your med'ing. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > rivers. > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > necessary) > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > Thanks, > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8598|8567|2005-08-22 08:35:17|Carl Volkwein|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Hi, I think the Navy, in later class ships went for the explosivly mated bi-metal strips. Jay Earl Burgess wrote: In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > build and more water resistant. > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8599|8567|2005-08-22 09:43:53|Dan McKee|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|I used 2" schedule 40 aluminum 6061 pipe for my handrail around the cockpit of my boat "Bug". Stanchions are approximately on three foot centers with four bolt bases and back-up plates. They are light and much stronger than the whimpy one inch diameter stainless steel railing most boats use. "Bug" is just being finished but my other boat has had similar pipe on it for fifteen years of ocean use with no effect other than graying a bit. The cabin on my other boat I built from 3/16" 5052 aluminum welded with 5356 wire fifteen years of sea duty ago. "Bug" is constructed of these also. We dive off the cabin top. Several people can jump up and down on the cabin top at once with no effect. Aluminum is tough. Any strength issues can be computed easily enough. That is simple engineering. Aluminum is easy to weld and much easier than steel to keep straight and fair. It is also much faster than steel to build in. seeratlas wrote:Is aluminum pipe suitable for the hand rails and more importantly, affixxing the blocks etc. for the sail fairleads? I was planning on using stainless . I guess I really don't have enough experience with aluminum to get a feel for all the differences that would be involved. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee wrote: > As Earl says, its best to have the steel flange up off the deck to get the dissimilar joint out of standing water. The flanges on both metals should turn inward to protect the hardware. UHMW-PE strips between the flanges are held with steel bolts through first, a steel heavy fender washer, then a UHMW washer of like size, then through an oversized hole in the aluminum flange with a UHMW or nylon spacer around the bolt with the o.d. the size of the hole through the aluminum and a thickness of that of the aluminum, then through the UHMW strip and tapped into the steel flange. 5200 will seal the joints. The resiliency of the UHMW will negate the need of lock washers but the bolts should be tightened periodically not because of loosening but for the "creep" of UHMW over time. I have just built my second boat with an aluminum cabin and just thin synthetic felt will inhibit condensation and insulate well for moderate climates. Aluminum is wonderfully easy to work with. Consider using > rolled sections for strength and beauty. The difference in weight from that of steel is worth the effort. > > Earl Burgess wrote:In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a > steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was > a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the > rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. > > Earl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > > > > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > > build and more water resistant. > > > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8600|8582|2005-08-22 09:48:16|seeratlas|Re: Kasco drawing|Remember the reason for this group, "origami". Robert's and most everyone else's construction techniques calls for building a master frame , then cutting out all the individual plates and welding them up like a jigsaw puzzle until you get the hull done, then you bring in a big crane, turn the whole thing over and start on the deck and house. Brent's technique is a whole new proposition altogether. You might want to send off for his book, well worth the money, the info is in the file's section. One of Brent's boats could be built pretty much anywhere in the world you can hook up an arc welder and have enough flat dry ground to work on, and someone who knows how to weld :) Robert's boats have been and are being built all over the world. However, there are several instances where he has made some pretty critical design mistakes (subsequently corrected when the boats hit the water and the problems became apparent. I think you can be confident of his designs at this point. They will take a LOT longer to build and at considerably more cost. If you like the Roberts' boats you should also look at the Dix design boats. Since it appears you are just beginning your search for a design there is a world of possibilities out there. You might take a look at boatdesign.net and see if anything there strikes your fancy. A good yard can build anything, you might take a look at the big yard in Croatia, can't remember the name now, but its been there several hundred years. They will build anything from warships down to cruising sailboats at very favorable rates and do very good work. They have built a number of Robert's boats and improved upon the designs considerably. good luck seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > "joefloki" was once used by a friend on me, and I don´t know why, but > I kept this at least for the internet. > I never said that I did not like Brent´s hulls, I am investigating all > possibilites, I am not under time pressure. So lets wait and see what > comes out. > I am also investigating Bruce Roberts boats. what do you think aobout > his boats. I actually like them and I am in contact with them > meanwhile. His website is http://www.bruceroberts.com/. > > A man named "Anton Luft" is promoting also a system similar to the > ORIGAMI, his website is http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/. > I phoned with this man, but did not come along with him: He does not > allow that the hull would get manufactured by a company and some other > things. And also I do not like the shape of his boats. > But I would like to know, if you know his boats and if you have heard > anything about him. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gottfried, > > I should have said welcome to the group, but I have to ask, how does > > "joefloki" become Gottfried? heheh > > > > Anyway, I wanted to ask what you didn't like about Brent's hulls? The > > deck and house are easily modified during construction and as for the > > hull shape, i would think in the bilge keel plan his 31 or 36 would be > > more than suitable for your med'ing. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since many > > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the rest of > > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself should be > > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > > rivers. > > > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not fit me. > > > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > > necessary) > > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8601|8601|2005-08-22 10:17:26|seeratlas|OLD BEN? :)|Ben, I seem to remember you talking about Corten steel at once point and tho we went round and round, with Brent posting that it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth... I wonder if I shouldn't go back and investigate using corten for the decks and cabin. If I remember right its about 50 percent stronger than steel and 10mm is often substituted for 3/16ths with good effect. I've forgotten now what Brent spec'd for the decks and cabin on his 40, have to go look that up, but seems I might be able to save some weight, avoid the mixxed metals problem with aluminum, and corten should still be substantially cheaper than aluminum anyway. Another thing I was wondering was since I'm employing a relatively low gaff schooner rig, perhaps I could even use corten steel round pipe or poles assuming someone makes them. That would let me weld up all my mast fittings etc., save some weight over equiv steel masts, and probably not weigh a whole lot more than the larger aluminum pipe that would be necessary to compensate for weld strength losses in aluminum. A corten mast could be half the thickness of a steel one, and considerably stronger and smaller than an aluminum one, thus reducing weight over steel, and windage over aluminum. hmmmmmm I heard from someone that the dutch use corten a lot and they seem to know more small steel boats than most. I'm going to have to get hold of someone who sells all this stuff and compare some prices. The Chinese are still gobbling up the world's steel supply so the prices have not yet come down much, tho...they could be on the edge of a big slowdown which might glut the market and cause at least a temporary glut and accompanying price crash, at which point I'm buying :) hehehe. Oh, Alex, I shouldn't say this but I can't resist...your original statement regarding the chinese actions and intentions has proven out 100 percent.. so vindicated you are :) Nearly every military/intelligence service/'think tank in the west has now published similar conclusions, not to mention the relatively high ranking intelligence officer defector who has been spilling his guts. seer| 8602|8602|2005-08-22 12:02:20|seeratlas|Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would be shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper water. Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how wide would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe what, 3 feet? seer| 8603|8582|2005-08-22 14:12:15|joefloki|Re: Kasco drawing|I have seen one or the other of his boats and I have heard about his system, but can you tell me his website to see ALL of his possible constructions. Thank you, Gottfrie --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Remember the reason for this group, "origami". Robert's and most > everyone else's construction techniques calls for building a master > frame , then cutting out all the individual plates and welding them up > like a jigsaw puzzle until you get the hull done, then you bring in a > big crane, turn the whole thing over and start on the deck and house. > > Brent's technique is a whole new proposition altogether. You might > want to send off for his book, well worth the money, the info is in > the file's section. One of Brent's boats could be built pretty much > anywhere in the world you can hook up an arc welder and have enough > flat dry ground to work on, and someone who knows how to weld :) > > Robert's boats have been and are being built all over the world. > However, there are several instances where he has made some pretty > critical design mistakes (subsequently corrected when the boats hit > the water and the problems became apparent. I think you can be > confident of his designs at this point. They will take a LOT longer > to build and at considerably more cost. > > If you like the Roberts' boats you should also look at the Dix design > boats. > > Since it appears you are just beginning your search for a design there > is a world of possibilities out there. You might take a look at > boatdesign.net and see if anything there strikes your fancy. > > A good yard can build anything, you might take a look at the big yard > in Croatia, can't remember the name now, but its been there several > hundred years. They will build anything from warships down to cruising > sailboats at very favorable rates and do very good work. They have > built a number of Robert's boats and improved upon the designs > considerably. > > good luck > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > "joefloki" was once used by a friend on me, and I don´t know why, but > > I kept this at least for the internet. > > I never said that I did not like Brent´s hulls, I am investigating all > > possibilites, I am not under time pressure. So lets wait and see what > > comes out. > > I am also investigating Bruce Roberts boats. what do you think aobout > > his boats. I actually like them and I am in contact with them > > meanwhile. His website is http://www.bruceroberts.com/. > > > > A man named "Anton Luft" is promoting also a system similar to the > > ORIGAMI, his website is http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/. > > I phoned with this man, but did not come along with him: He does not > > allow that the hull would get manufactured by a company and some other > > things. And also I do not like the shape of his boats. > > But I would like to know, if you know his boats and if you have heard > > anything about him. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > Gottfried, > > > I should have said welcome to the group, but I have to ask, how does > > > "joefloki" become Gottfried? heheh > > > > > > Anyway, I wanted to ask what you didn't like about Brent's hulls? The > > > deck and house are easily modified during construction and as for the > > > hull shape, i would think in the bilge keel plan his 31 or 36 would be > > > more than suitable for your med'ing. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since > many > > > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the > rest of > > > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself > should be > > > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > > > rivers. > > > > > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the way of > > > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not > fit me. > > > > > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: Length 10 > > > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing (speed no > > > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > > > necessary) > > > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8604|8582|2005-08-22 17:26:43|seeratlas|Re: Kasco drawing|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > I have seen one or the other of his boats and I have heard about his > system, but can you tell me his website to see ALL of his possible > constructions. > > Thank you, > > Gottfrie Which one are you referring to? Dudley Dix's site I believe is "Dixdesign.com" Brent's boats are seen in the files and photos section of this group, and in his book. There are also a number of construction photos there. You can also take a look at the metalboatsociety.com site and look thru their 'forum' where there are links to some boats you might be interested in. seer > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Remember the reason for this group, "origami". Robert's and most > > everyone else's construction techniques calls for building a master > > frame , then cutting out all the individual plates and welding them up > > like a jigsaw puzzle until you get the hull done, then you bring in a > > big crane, turn the whole thing over and start on the deck and house. > > > > Brent's technique is a whole new proposition altogether. You might > > want to send off for his book, well worth the money, the info is in > > the file's section. One of Brent's boats could be built pretty much > > anywhere in the world you can hook up an arc welder and have enough > > flat dry ground to work on, and someone who knows how to weld :) > > > > Robert's boats have been and are being built all over the world. > > However, there are several instances where he has made some pretty > > critical design mistakes (subsequently corrected when the boats hit > > the water and the problems became apparent. I think you can be > > confident of his designs at this point. They will take a LOT longer > > to build and at considerably more cost. > > > > If you like the Roberts' boats you should also look at the Dix design > > boats. > > > > Since it appears you are just beginning your search for a design there > > is a world of possibilities out there. You might take a look at > > boatdesign.net and see if anything there strikes your fancy. > > > > A good yard can build anything, you might take a look at the big yard > > in Croatia, can't remember the name now, but its been there several > > hundred years. They will build anything from warships down to cruising > > sailboats at very favorable rates and do very good work. They have > > built a number of Robert's boats and improved upon the designs > > considerably. > > > > good luck > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > > > "joefloki" was once used by a friend on me, and I don´t know why, but > > > I kept this at least for the internet. > > > I never said that I did not like Brent´s hulls, I am investigating all > > > possibilites, I am not under time pressure. So lets wait and see what > > > comes out. > > > I am also investigating Bruce Roberts boats. what do you think aobout > > > his boats. I actually like them and I am in contact with them > > > meanwhile. His website is http://www.bruceroberts.com/. > > > > > > A man named "Anton Luft" is promoting also a system similar to the > > > ORIGAMI, his website is http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/. > > > I phoned with this man, but did not come along with him: He does not > > > allow that the hull would get manufactured by a company and some other > > > things. And also I do not like the shape of his boats. > > > But I would like to know, if you know his boats and if you have heard > > > anything about him. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Gottfried, > > > > I should have said welcome to the group, but I have to ask, how does > > > > "joefloki" become Gottfried? heheh > > > > > > > > Anyway, I wanted to ask what you didn't like about Brent's > hulls? The > > > > deck and house are easily modified during construction and as > for the > > > > hull shape, i would think in the bilge keel plan his 31 or 36 > would be > > > > more than suitable for your med'ing. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" > wrote: > > > > > As I am completely new to this group, let me introduce myself: > > > > > I am Austrian, living in Vienna, sailing on Austrian lakes since > > many > > > > > years. I will retire in about two years and plan to spend the > > rest of > > > > > my active days on a boat in the Meditarenean Sea. > > > > > I would like to finish a steel caso, the steel casco itself > > should be > > > > > made by a local company experienced in commercial shipbuilding for > > > > > rivers. > > > > > > > > > > I got to know about your method to build a steel ship and the > way of > > > > > making it is very impressive. However the SWAIN hull does not > > fit me. > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for a construction drawing for the following: > Length 10 > > > > > to 10.5m, width about 3,30m MOTORSailor, with CLOSED long steering > > > > > stand (difficult to express it in English, I try in German: lange, > > > > > geschlossene Kajütte), Cutterstyle, but with one mast only. > > > > > > > > > > The boat should suit my wife and me for a relaxing sailing > (speed no > > > > > asset) during most time of the year (Heating, shower therefore > > > > necessary) > > > > > Does anybody know about a drawing for such a ship ??????????????? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Gottfried, Vienna, Austria | 8605|8601|2005-08-22 17:51:01|Puck III|Re: OLD BEN? :)|Hi Seer , personaly I would not mix two different steel-types , I also would not choose a steel mast ever !! why ? I would recommend an easy collapsable mast , the Dutch way , to be frank : I love a wooden mast and a wooden gaff ( highering the peak brings the chape back into the sail , and I love a " losse broek " loose pants in Dutch , a name for the traditional two point sail to boom attachment wich allows to make the sail flatter or fuller with a minimum effort ; to traditional or some nostalgia ?? you can varnish them , paint them ,cheap and easy to build. For the standing rigg parts ,I use thick aluminum , wish I sandblast cause that way the look like galvanised steel the old fashion way, without the maintenance ( dont forget a Delrin to avoid friction fatigue ) You find sketches of a modern and a traditional gaffer in the MSTrawler Group I mentioned earlyer . These are only some personal thoughts and I respect anybodys freedom to choose differently ; maintenance prices and berthing prices rise every day , so choosing a simple system with the minimum of maintenance build with easy available materials is the way to thinck . DO NOT forget an anti lightening system !!! different subject. Cheers , hehehe Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Ben, > I seem to remember you talking about Corten steel at once point and > tho we went round and round, with Brent posting that it turned out to > be more trouble than it was worth... > > I wonder if I shouldn't go back and investigate using corten for the > decks and cabin. If I remember right its about 50 percent stronger > than steel and 10mm is often substituted for 3/16ths with good effect. > > I've forgotten now what Brent spec'd for the decks and cabin on his > 40, have to go look that up, but seems I might be able to save some > weight, avoid the mixxed metals problem with aluminum, and corten > should still be substantially cheaper than aluminum anyway. Another > thing I was wondering was since I'm employing a relatively low gaff > schooner rig, perhaps I could even use corten steel round pipe or > poles assuming someone makes them. That would let me weld up all my > mast fittings etc., save some weight over equiv steel masts, and > probably not weigh a whole lot more than the larger aluminum pipe that > would be necessary to compensate for weld strength losses in aluminum. > > A corten mast could be half the thickness of a steel one, and > considerably stronger and smaller than an aluminum one, thus reducing > weight over steel, and windage over aluminum. hmmmmmm I heard from > someone that the dutch use corten a lot and they seem to know more > small steel boats than most. > > I'm going to have to get hold of someone who sells all this stuff and > compare some prices. The Chinese are still gobbling up the world's > steel supply so the prices have not yet come down much, tho...they > could be on the edge of a big slowdown which might glut the market and > cause at least a temporary glut and accompanying price crash, at which > point I'm buying :) hehehe. > > Oh, Alex, I shouldn't say this but I can't resist...your > original statement regarding the chinese actions and intentions has > proven out 100 percent.. so vindicated you are :) Nearly every > military/intelligence service/'think tank in the west has now > published similar conclusions, not to mention the relatively high > ranking intelligence officer defector who has been spilling his guts. > > seer | 8606|8602|2005-08-22 17:55:11|jim_both|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Hi Seeratlas; I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would be > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper water. > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how wide > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe what, > 3 feet? > > seer | 8607|8582|2005-08-22 18:18:51|Puck III|Re: Kasco drawing|I had a look at al-yachtdesign.de , sory to say I do not see in any way how their building system has anything to do with Origami boatbuilding in Steel ?????????? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrigamiPlyBoatDesign/ is a Repository Group where you will find some info about Origami Boat Design and Building . Origami boat building is quick and can be build by any yard , the mayor cost of a Casco is the Laborcost. Study a bit the Origami boatbuilding proces , and you will soon see for your self . Some Groupe Members sure could give you a fine price quotation. But any builder need a plan to quote . To choose the plan you need , you realy need to make a wishlist or designgoal ( especialy if you have the time :-) The TOPIC in this Group is ORIGAMI steel and alu building , do some research and let us all know what your conclusions are :-) Is Origami boatbuilding worth looking at ???? I sure do think so. Regards from Belgium. Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joefloki" wrote: > A man named "Anton Luft" is promoting also a system similar to the > ORIGAMI, his website is http://www.al-yachtdesign.de/. > I phoned with this man, but did not come along with him: He does not > allow that the hull would get manufactured by a company and some other > things. And also I do not like the shape of his boats. > But I would like to know, if you know his boats and if you have heard > anything about him. | 8608|22|2005-08-22 18:40:09|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /JPBart22.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Bulb twin keel article by JP Brouns You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/JPBart22.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8609|8602|2005-08-22 18:49:56|Puck III|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Hi Jim , thanks for the most interesting Link : http://www.marsmetal.com/newspages/torpedobulbs.html I just uploaded an article by JP Brouns in Files , to show bulbs work fine on twin keels , fine and well tested . I will take that large file away soon , cause northcanoe was so friendly to reduce it size ; also took away some of my naughty files allready, freeing some space :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Seeratlas; > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > be > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > water. > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > wide > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > what, > > 3 feet? > > > > seer | 8610|8567|2005-08-22 19:08:54|Earl Burgess|Re: Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How.|Since I'm near Norfolk and the shipyards, I could check it out. I'll see if any of the CO's have knowledge of current material. Regards, Earl Kit-Katz Toy C28 MK II H-Roads ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Volkwein" To: Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > Hi, > > I think the Navy, in later class ships went for the explosivly mated bi-metal strips. > Jay > > Earl Burgess wrote: > In the 60's & 70's the Navy was riveting the aluminum super structures to a > steel coaming welded to the deck that was ~6" high. Between the Au & Fe was > a black, shiny dielectric material. Not sure of the metal makeup of the > rivets. These can still be seen aboard the Adams class destroyers. > > Earl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:17 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Pilot House on Steel boat? How. > > > > Brent has mentioned on several occasions that he would consider > > building a deckhouse out of aluminum on a steel boat. I have several > > questions for anyone with any thoughts on that issue. > > > > First, how would you go about attaching it to the deck? I'm aware of > > the explosively created bi-metal strips, but I thought we concluded > > that they were extraordinarily expensive. The alternative would > > require some kind of rubber, electrically isolating the aluminum from > > the steel, as well as sealing out any possible water intrusion. That > > would seem to me to be pretty difficult to do, unless you used steel > > cabin sides, and used aluminum solely for the cabin top, with some > > kind of sealing vertical flange at the top, which might be easier to > > build and more water resistant. > > > > Next, the amount of weight saved if just using the cabin top would not > > be all that significant would it? Then there's the matter of welding > > hand holds and fittings to the aluminum cabin top...hmmm, now you have > > a whole new problem in dealing with diverse metals, then there's the > > heat transfer characteristics issue of aluminum vs. steel. In the end... > > I dunno.. to me it seems like a lot of complication. How much weight > > would you really be saving, is it really worth the aggravation? > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8611|8550|2005-08-22 20:24:42|brentswain38|Re: Airhead compsting toil;ets|Check the website air headtoilet.com The agitator is just a bent rod with a crank handle on the outside. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Ok, > Let me get this straight. I gather each solid waste 'container' has a > built in agitator? If not, how do you keep the 'process' going? or > just 'shake it around' :) heheh, and what about continued venting of > the 'cartridge' you've removed? > > Now, If i remember the discussion we had about the other composting > toilet, the problem was the size of the thing, on account of the > rotating drum. Soo... > if we came up with something that made it easy for men (no problem) > and women, (bigger problem) to divert off the urine, (I hate to say it > but there is a group in India that preach imbibing urine for health > reasons...so it can't be too dangerous, hell even one of their Prime > Ministers was a practitioner..scary eh? ) so I'm buying into the > dumping urine (at least in moderate quantities) is not likely to cause > the fish to start leaping out onto the bank... > > Then we need the 'straight hole shot' design into some kind of drum? > (needs to be turned periodically right?), how about a 'pony keg' sized > drum? something light enough to be swapped out? perhaps ? > Seems like the whole thing demonstrably works as long as not too many > people are on the boat for too many consecutive days...hmm > > > now how to do all that with something that looks presentable, will > last, and at a minimal cost? > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > > wrote: > > > I spoke with the inventor of this toilet at a trade show about two > > years > > > ago. The show was slow and we talked for nearly an hour. > > > > I too talked with him for quite awhile, it was at the Atlantic City > > Sail Expo. Pretty much the same conversation. > > > > > > > > >...His aim was to eliminate the need to use water to clean the > > bowl. > > > The filter paper accomplishes that nicely. > > > > > > He wasn't aiming to sell this toilet as a replacement for your > > cedar bucket. > > > He is aiming to replace the pumpout toilet, holding tank, > > macerator pump, > > > hoses and electricity. Compared to all of that he has succeeded > > quite > > > admirably, if you have an open mind for something different. > > > > Even though I decided to not go that route, I quite agree on your > > take. > > eric S/V Nebaras | 8612|8531|2005-08-22 21:35:48|ed_lithgow|Re: woodstove poderings|Hi All Blimey! Didn't know that. With a propane tank I didn't really think there was a problem, I was just being cautious (as well as a bit facetious) with my "Cook it in Canada" remark. Never thought about the torch providing its own explosive. Inflammable liquids (eg/ie petrol AKA gasoline) are, I think, a different matter. The last petrol tank I had to weld I steam-cleaned and then...threw it away and bought one from a scrappy.It doesn't take much liquid trapped in flange crevice and when I came to do it it just didn't seem worth the risk. Regds, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > regarding cutting/welding tanks/cylinders that have been filled with > > flammable liquids/gasses ... wouldn't first filling them with water > > and then emptying them displace all explosive gasses? > > > > Some of the problems with tanks and so on is that when cutting or > welding them with a torch some of the gas enters the tank unburned, > then when the hole gets large enough to let enough free oxygen, or the > torch sends more oxygen into the tank, you have an explosive mixture > just waiting for the worse possible time to say hello. > > I have arc welded on tanks after filling them with water and had no > trouble, and I'll cut them with a metal muncher blade, or cutting > wheel, but stay away from tanks with torches. > > Ken | 8613|8510|2005-08-22 21:59:59|jim_both|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Hi Seer; I don't know if you came across this website in your search for a workable and affordable electric drive: http://www.asmomarine.com/ Maybe of some interest to you. Jim| 8614|8601|2005-08-22 22:17:07|seeratlas|Re: OLD BEN? :)|Well, heheh I was thinking it would be easier to mix mild steel, stainless and corten than mild/stainless and aluminum wouldn't it? LOL. For my purposes wood mast isn't going to work, with a gaff, you have to put something around the wood to minimize chafe at the jaws, at that point you have something that is going to eventually trap water underneath it and start rot...plus, you would need the same thing at each reefing point and wood can get a bit heavy. My masts will be on tabernacles and raised and lowered as required. I was thinking that several have reported good results with a steel mast on Brent's boats, and a corten mast would be stiffer and substantially lighter, yet still retain full strength at welded attachments unlike aluminum. It would also cause fewer problems in the stainless tabernacle. Yes i'm aware of your love of tradition, but remember those rigs were not designed with the modern materials available..I agree the theory remains valid and in fact both main and foresail on my boat are two point'd to the booms :) or loosefooted as we say here. :) I was planning on using aluminum gaff's in any event as they are necessarily isolated from the mast by the friction reducing material in the jaws, so electrolysis is not a problem. Not sure what you mean by easily collapsible mast in the dutch way.. As for standing rigging, dunno bout aluminum, I was going to use heavily galvanized and painted steel, wrapped, then painted again in black in the manner Brent has done his. Hard to argue with his length of service. I have planned for lightning spikes on both masts which should give sufficient coverage to the entire boat. I need to get the newer drawings of my boat posted up. hehehe. Tho not 'traditional', she does have a certain sauciness to her you might appreciate :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Seer , > personaly I would not mix two different steel-types , > > I also would not choose a steel mast ever !! > why ? I would recommend an easy collapsable mast , > the Dutch way , to be frank : I love a wooden mast > and a wooden gaff ( highering the peak brings the > chape back into the sail , and I love a " losse broek " > loose pants in Dutch , a name for the traditional > two point sail to boom attachment wich allows to > make the sail flatter or fuller with a minimum effort ; > to traditional or some nostalgia ?? > you can varnish them , paint them ,cheap and easy to build. > For the standing rigg parts ,I use thick aluminum , wish I sandblast > cause that way the look like galvanised steel the old fashion way, > without the maintenance ( dont forget a Delrin to avoid friction > fatigue ) > You find sketches of a modern and a traditional gaffer in > the MSTrawler Group I mentioned earlyer . > > These are only some personal thoughts and I respect anybodys > freedom to choose differently ; maintenance prices and > berthing prices rise every day , so choosing a simple system > with the minimum of maintenance build with easy available > materials is the way to thinck . > > DO NOT forget an anti lightening system !!! different subject. > > Cheers , hehehe > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Ben, > > I seem to remember you talking about Corten steel at once point and > > tho we went round and round, with Brent posting that it turned out > to > > be more trouble than it was worth... > > > > I wonder if I shouldn't go back and investigate using corten for > the > > decks and cabin. If I remember right its about 50 percent stronger > > than steel and 10mm is often substituted for 3/16ths with good > effect. > > > > I've forgotten now what Brent spec'd for the decks and cabin on his > > 40, have to go look that up, but seems I might be able to save some > > weight, avoid the mixxed metals problem with aluminum, and corten > > should still be substantially cheaper than aluminum anyway. > Another > > thing I was wondering was since I'm employing a relatively low gaff > > schooner rig, perhaps I could even use corten steel round pipe or > > poles assuming someone makes them. That would let me weld up all my > > mast fittings etc., save some weight over equiv steel masts, and > > probably not weigh a whole lot more than the larger aluminum pipe > that > > would be necessary to compensate for weld strength losses in > aluminum. > > > > A corten mast could be half the thickness of a steel one, and > > considerably stronger and smaller than an aluminum one, thus > reducing > > weight over steel, and windage over aluminum. hmmmmmm I heard from > > someone that the dutch use corten a lot and they seem to know more > > small steel boats than most. > > > > I'm going to have to get hold of someone who sells all this stuff > and > > compare some prices. The Chinese are still gobbling up the world's > > steel supply so the prices have not yet come down much, tho...they > > could be on the edge of a big slowdown which might glut the market > and > > cause at least a temporary glut and accompanying price crash, at > which > > point I'm buying :) hehehe. > > > > Oh, Alex, I shouldn't say this but I can't resist...your > > original statement regarding the chinese actions and intentions has > > proven out 100 percent.. so vindicated you are :) Nearly every > > military/intelligence service/'think tank in the west has now > > published similar conclusions, not to mention the relatively high > > ranking intelligence officer defector who has been spilling his > guts. > > > > seer | 8615|8602|2005-08-22 22:27:20|seeratlas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Thanks Jim, yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is substantially less than with aluminum. I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to the house. For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to shreds.... seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Seeratlas; > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > be > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > water. > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > wide > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > what, > > 3 feet? > > > > seer | 8616|8510|2005-08-22 22:40:24|seeratlas|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Yeah Jim, I did and i was VERY pleased to see that their installation mirrors what I had come up with hehehehe :), belt drive and all :) The installation manual was very useful, and their link to the american distributor also yielded a lot of useful information on that site. The hard part is getting your head around all the different possibilities, you have a full range of voltages, motors, controllers, and gensets, and when you change one, practically all the others necessarily change also, and costs can run riot. It certainly won't be the easiest or cheapest way to go, but, I think I can make it work. The funny part is when you start thinking of how often you run your normal diesel auxillary and for what purpose..:) More often than not, its to recharge the damned batteries LOL, seems silly to have a main propulsion unit around just for that:) BUT, when you need full power, you REALLY NEED full power, so I have to design for that end as well. Fortunately, the electric drive only uses what it needs, so if you only need 4 hp to creep around the dock, that's what you use, and when you need 40kw to power thru a swell over a bar, it can dish that up in a hurry too. :) My current thought is perhaps to use two generators, one small, and one larger such that when I only need a little juice for recharging, or running the micro, that's all I have to use, but when I need full power I can fire em both up and rock and roll. Added complexity etc. but efficiencies and redundancy are good. We'll see. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Seer; > > I don't know if you came across this website in your search for a > workable and affordable electric drive: > > http://www.asmomarine.com/ > > Maybe of some interest to you. > Jim | 8617|22|2005-08-23 03:54:38|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Carbon Gaff prelim.htm Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSTrawler/ more Pics:-) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Carbon%20Gaff%20prelim.htm To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8618|22|2005-08-23 04:00:34|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /CarbonGaffPrelim.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSTrawler/ more Pics You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/CarbonGaffPrelim.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8619|8601|2005-08-23 04:17:17|Puck III|Re: OLD BEN? :)|heheh , just posted that Carbon Gaff for you Seer , just to show traditional and modern can mix perfectly :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSTrawler/ photos will give you a collapsable mast in the real tradition , even more........... a new hugable member in that group uses heheh....... with real ease , but he is rather incognito , a Chinese agent ? the devil in disguise ? as long as we continue to have some fun , without nasty fighting , the future looks bright to me :-) on the other hand , I do not see myself waving any corten or mild steel little flagpole :-) a carbon one is to expensive !! so I'l stick to the traditional wooden one , like all kids do . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Well, heheh > I was thinking it would be easier to mix mild steel, stainless and > corten than mild/stainless and aluminum wouldn't it? LOL. > > For my purposes wood mast isn't going to work, with a gaff, you have > to put something around the wood to minimize chafe at the jaws, at > that point you have something that is going to eventually trap water > underneath it and start rot...plus, you would need the same thing at > each reefing point and wood can get a bit heavy. My masts will be on > tabernacles and raised and lowered as required. I was thinking that > several have reported good results with a steel mast on Brent's boats, > and a corten mast would be stiffer and substantially lighter, yet > still retain full strength at welded attachments unlike aluminum. It > would also cause fewer problems in the stainless tabernacle. > > Yes i'm aware of your love of tradition, but remember those rigs were > not designed with the modern materials available..I agree the theory > remains valid and in fact both main and foresail on my boat are two > point'd to the booms :) or loosefooted as we say here. :) > I was planning on using aluminum gaff's in any event as they are > necessarily isolated from the mast by the friction reducing material > in the jaws, so electrolysis is not a problem. > > Not sure what you mean by easily collapsible mast in the dutch way.. > As for standing rigging, dunno bout aluminum, I was going to use > heavily galvanized and painted steel, wrapped, then painted again in > black in the manner Brent has done his. Hard to argue with his length > of service. > > I have planned for lightning spikes on both masts which should give > sufficient coverage to the entire boat. > > I need to get the newer drawings of my boat posted up. hehehe. Tho not > 'traditional', she does have a certain sauciness to her you might > appreciate :) > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Seer , > > personaly I would not mix two different steel-types , > > > > I also would not choose a steel mast ever !! > > why ? I would recommend an easy collapsable mast , > > the Dutch way , to be frank : I love a wooden mast > > and a wooden gaff ( highering the peak brings the > > chape back into the sail , and I love a " losse broek " > > loose pants in Dutch , a name for the traditional > > two point sail to boom attachment wich allows to > > make the sail flatter or fuller with a minimum effort ; > > to traditional or some nostalgia ?? > > you can varnish them , paint them ,cheap and easy to build. > > For the standing rigg parts ,I use thick aluminum , wish I sandblast > > cause that way the look like galvanised steel the old fashion way, > > without the maintenance ( dont forget a Delrin to avoid friction > > fatigue ) > > You find sketches of a modern and a traditional gaffer in > > the MSTrawler Group I mentioned earlyer . > > > > These are only some personal thoughts and I respect anybodys > > freedom to choose differently ; maintenance prices and > > berthing prices rise every day , so choosing a simple system > > with the minimum of maintenance build with easy available > > materials is the way to thinck . > > > > DO NOT forget an anti lightening system !!! different subject. > > > > Cheers , hehehe > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > I seem to remember you talking about Corten steel at once point and > > > tho we went round and round, with Brent posting that it turned out > > to > > > be more trouble than it was worth... > > > > > > I wonder if I shouldn't go back and investigate using corten for > > the > > > decks and cabin. If I remember right its about 50 percent stronger > > > than steel and 10mm is often substituted for 3/16ths with good > > effect. > > > > > > I've forgotten now what Brent spec'd for the decks and cabin on his > > > 40, have to go look that up, but seems I might be able to save some > > > weight, avoid the mixxed metals problem with aluminum, and corten > > > should still be substantially cheaper than aluminum anyway. > > Another > > > thing I was wondering was since I'm employing a relatively low gaff > > > schooner rig, perhaps I could even use corten steel round pipe or > > > poles assuming someone makes them. That would let me weld up all my > > > mast fittings etc., save some weight over equiv steel masts, and > > > probably not weigh a whole lot more than the larger aluminum pipe > > that > > > would be necessary to compensate for weld strength losses in > > aluminum. > > > > > > A corten mast could be half the thickness of a steel one, and > > > considerably stronger and smaller than an aluminum one, thus > > reducing > > > weight over steel, and windage over aluminum. hmmmmmm I heard from > > > someone that the dutch use corten a lot and they seem to know more > > > small steel boats than most. > > > > > > I'm going to have to get hold of someone who sells all this stuff > > and > > > compare some prices. The Chinese are still gobbling up the world's > > > steel supply so the prices have not yet come down much, tho...they > > > could be on the edge of a big slowdown which might glut the market > > and > > > cause at least a temporary glut and accompanying price crash, at > > which > > > point I'm buying :) hehehe. > > > > > > Oh, Alex, I shouldn't say this but I can't resist...your > > > original statement regarding the chinese actions and intentions has > > > proven out 100 percent.. so vindicated you are :) Nearly every > > > military/intelligence service/'think tank in the west has now > > > published similar conclusions, not to mention the relatively high > > > ranking intelligence officer defector who has been spilling his > > guts. > > > > > > seer | 8620|8510|2005-08-23 10:48:46|Carl Volkwein|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Hea Seer, What if instead of two generators you had one for charging batteries, and a hydrolic pump that would run a main engine, and a widless, mabe even some winches? and belted off the main engine, I think someone already makes desil powered generators with hydrolic pumps on them Jay. seeratlas wrote: Yeah Jim, I did and i was VERY pleased to see that their installation mirrors what I had come up with hehehehe :), belt drive and all :) The installation manual was very useful, and their link to the american distributor also yielded a lot of useful information on that site. The hard part is getting your head around all the different possibilities, you have a full range of voltages, motors, controllers, and gensets, and when you change one, practically all the others necessarily change also, and costs can run riot. It certainly won't be the easiest or cheapest way to go, but, I think I can make it work. The funny part is when you start thinking of how often you run your normal diesel auxillary and for what purpose..:) More often than not, its to recharge the damned batteries LOL, seems silly to have a main propulsion unit around just for that:) BUT, when you need full power, you REALLY NEED full power, so I have to design for that end as well. Fortunately, the electric drive only uses what it needs, so if you only need 4 hp to creep around the dock, that's what you use, and when you need 40kw to power thru a swell over a bar, it can dish that up in a hurry too. :) My current thought is perhaps to use two generators, one small, and one larger such that when I only need a little juice for recharging, or running the micro, that's all I have to use, but when I need full power I can fire em both up and rock and roll. Added complexity etc. but efficiencies and redundancy are good. We'll see. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Seer; > > I don't know if you came across this website in your search for a > workable and affordable electric drive: > > http://www.asmomarine.com/ > > Maybe of some interest to you. > Jim To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8621|8602|2005-08-23 10:59:04|Carl Volkwein|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Seer, You could use the trunk for a drop leaf table and not wast as much space. Jay. seeratlas wrote: Thanks Jim, yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is substantially less than with aluminum. I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to the house. For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to shreds.... seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Hi Seeratlas; > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > be > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > water. > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > wide > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > what, > > 3 feet? > > > > seer To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8622|8510|2005-08-23 12:57:07|seeratlas|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Because of the small dimensions of the DC generators, there's lots of room for pto off the generators. I have planned for engine driven emergency high capacity pump (which will also drive my hydraulic bow thruster), and a hydraulic pump for running windlasses fore and aft. My rig actually requires no winches but I was planning on mounting a big capstan type centrally for assisting in pulling whatever needs pulling :). The reason for two generators is first redundancy and second efficiency. Most of the time you run a generator for merely recharging the batteries, and in my case using the galley etc. That really doesn't require anywhere near the power I need to drive the boat at near hull speed up a river against an adverse current, so I'm thinking one small and one medium which together give me "1 large" :). The hard part of this is keeping the costs down to something that makes sense. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Hea Seer, > > What if instead of two generators you had one for charging batteries, and a hydrolic pump that would run a main engine, and a widless, mabe even some winches? and belted off the main engine, I think someone already makes desil powered generators with hydrolic pumps on them > > Jay. > > seeratlas wrote: > Yeah Jim, I did and i was VERY pleased to see that their installation > mirrors what I had come up with hehehehe :), belt drive and all :) > The installation manual was very useful, and their link to the > american distributor also yielded a lot of useful information on that > site. > > The hard part is getting your head around all the different > possibilities, you have a full range of voltages, motors, controllers, > and gensets, and when you change one, practically all the others > necessarily change also, and costs can run riot. It certainly won't be > the easiest or cheapest way to go, but, I think I can make it work. > > The funny part is when you start thinking of how often you run your > normal diesel auxillary and for what purpose..:) More often than not, > its to recharge the damned batteries LOL, seems silly to have a main > propulsion unit around just for that:) BUT, when you need full power, > you REALLY NEED full power, so I have to design for that end as well. > Fortunately, the electric drive only uses what it needs, so if you > only need 4 hp to creep around the dock, that's what you use, and when > you need 40kw to power thru a swell over a bar, it can dish that up in > a hurry too. :) > > My current thought is perhaps to use two generators, one small, and > one larger such that when I only need a little juice for recharging, > or running the micro, that's all I have to use, but when I need full > power I can fire em both up and rock and roll. Added complexity etc. > but efficiencies and redundancy are good. We'll see. > > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > Hi Seer; > > > > I don't know if you came across this website in your search for a > > workable and affordable electric drive: > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/ > > > > Maybe of some interest to you. > > Jim > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8623|8510|2005-08-23 13:07:37|Jim Ragsdale|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Seems to me that one small and one large diesel will be more expensive than one engine sized for max load. Is the noise and small amount extra of fuel used enought to justify the possibly thousands of dollars difference in price? ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :) > Because of the small dimensions of the DC generators, there's lots of > room for pto off the generators. I have planned for engine driven > emergency high capacity pump (which will also drive my hydraulic bow > thruster), and a hydraulic pump for running windlasses fore and aft. > My rig actually requires no winches but I was planning on mounting a > big capstan type centrally for assisting in pulling whatever needs > pulling :). The reason for two generators is first redundancy and > second efficiency. Most of the time you run a generator for merely > recharging the batteries, and in my case using the galley etc. That > really doesn't require anywhere near the power I need to drive the > boat at near hull speed up a river against an adverse current, so I'm > thinking one small and one medium which together give me "1 large" :). > > The hard part of this is keeping the costs down to something that > makes sense. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > > Hea Seer, > > > > What if instead of two generators you had one for charging > batteries, and a hydrolic pump that would run a main engine, and a > widless, mabe even some winches? and belted off the main engine, I > think someone already makes desil powered generators with hydrolic > pumps on them > > > > Jay. > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > Yeah Jim, I did and i was VERY pleased to see that their installation > > mirrors what I had come up with hehehehe :), belt drive and all :) > > The installation manual was very useful, and their link to the > > american distributor also yielded a lot of useful information on that > > site. > > > > The hard part is getting your head around all the different > > possibilities, you have a full range of voltages, motors, controllers, > > and gensets, and when you change one, practically all the others > > necessarily change also, and costs can run riot. It certainly won't be > > the easiest or cheapest way to go, but, I think I can make it work. > > > > The funny part is when you start thinking of how often you run your > > normal diesel auxillary and for what purpose..:) More often than not, > > its to recharge the damned batteries LOL, seems silly to have a main > > propulsion unit around just for that:) BUT, when you need full power, > > you REALLY NEED full power, so I have to design for that end as well. > > Fortunately, the electric drive only uses what it needs, so if you > > only need 4 hp to creep around the dock, that's what you use, and when > > you need 40kw to power thru a swell over a bar, it can dish that up in > > a hurry too. :) > > > > My current thought is perhaps to use two generators, one small, and > > one larger such that when I only need a little juice for recharging, > > or running the micro, that's all I have to use, but when I need full > > power I can fire em both up and rock and roll. Added complexity etc. > > but efficiencies and redundancy are good. We'll see. > > > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > > > Hi Seer; > > > > > > I don't know if you came across this website in your search for a > > > workable and affordable electric drive: > > > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/ > > > > > > Maybe of some interest to you. > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8624|8602|2005-08-23 13:07:51|seeratlas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|In my design, the trunk would not rise above the cabin sole. I probably won't mess with the centerboard idea but was wondering if Brent had ever entertained any thoughts in that direction. In rough weather, the forces on a centerboard are enormous and if you built the rig etc. dependent on the board, if you couldn't deploy it, well that wouldn't be good. :) I think the std draft for Brent's 40 is something around 4'9" and my boat would most likely sit a few inches deeper than that so I can probably live with that.. Ultra shoal draft with something in the 3' plus range would be nice for a lot of places, on the other hand it sure would limit your prop size. One thing about boats, everything effects everything else so you have to keep stepping back and looking at the 'big picture' :). good suggestion tho :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Seer, > > You could use the trunk for a drop leaf table and not wast as much space. > > Jay. > > seeratlas wrote: > Thanks Jim, > yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm > conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as > mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the > stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and > 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel > boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise > using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot > of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of > my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the > sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild > steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than > mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair > before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is > substantially less than with aluminum. > > I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm > thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, > save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to > the house. > > For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that > lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the > concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to > shreds.... > > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > Hi Seeratlas; > > > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > > Jim > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > > be > > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > > water. > > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > > wide > > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > > what, > > > 3 feet? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8625|8549|2005-08-23 13:43:00|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|A friend building a 50 ft Laurent Giles design couldn't be talked into using pre primed plate, something he regretted greatly when it came time to sandblast. He said he sure wished he listened to my suggestion that he use pre primed plate. He said he wished I'd bugged him more about it. With inorganic zinc primer, a wash with TSP and then vinegar , then water removes any oxide. I did that 21 years a go and have had no problem with it. The original epoxy is as good as the day I put it on. Having to sandblast an entire boat inside and out is a horrendous job, and there is no way it can be as good as using pre primed plate. Even if the primer does deteriorate a bit , it's light years easier to deal with than plate which was never blasted and primed. Paint manufacturers like to suck people into believing that all other paints are totally incompatible with theirs, as that results in the greatest profit for them. They don't mind at all if this results in you having to do a horrendous amount of unneccesary work at a thoroughly miserable job.Not their problem.Corporations have the same motivations as psychotics when it comes to someone elses problems. Their economic self interest is their only interest, period. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nortje_wynand" wrote: > Brent, > > What many overlook on painting a boat, is the overcoat times between > paint layers and "paint systems". Some paints are not really > compatable with others and can cost one dearly in the long run. > It is best to stick to a manufactures system - primer, under & top > coats - especially with epoxies. > > As for overcoat times; I personally steers clear of pre-prime plates > for this very reasons. I believe it is best to blast the whole thing > over (I assumed touching-up pre-primed plates) and start with a > complete paint system and stay within the manufacturers overcoat > times. The saving will be in the long term investment of a proper > paint job > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > When you ask a sandblaster if you only have to blast where the primer > > has failed he will inevitably advocate blasting the entire hull, even > > where the primer is good, to white metal. > > What do you expect him to advocate? That which reduces his potential > > income from the job? Not likely.He will invariably advocate uneccesary > > extra work if that results in more money for him. > > Duhhhh. > > Brent | 8626|8531|2005-08-23 13:49:51|brentswain38|Re: woodstove poderings|Either take the valve off or drill a large hole or two in it and leave it in the sun for a week.That should evaporate anything out of it. A jigsaw cuts metal without sparks. Stainles beer kegs are available in scrapyards and make better stoves. I've drawn up my wood stove and written a bit of text , to be added to future copies of my book. It's like the Waterford, or Ulefos , 12 inches high, by 18 inches long by 11 1/4 inches wide. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > Hi All > > Blimey! Didn't know that. With a propane tank I didn't really think > there was a problem, I was just being cautious (as well as a bit > facetious) with my "Cook it in Canada" remark. Never thought about the > torch providing its own explosive. > > Inflammable liquids (eg/ie petrol AKA gasoline) are, I think, a > different matter. The last petrol tank I had to weld I steam- cleaned > and then...threw it away and bought one from a scrappy.It doesn't take > much liquid trapped in flange crevice and when I came to do it it just > didn't seem worth the risk. > > Regds, Ed Lithgow > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > regarding cutting/welding tanks/cylinders that have been filled with > > > flammable liquids/gasses ... wouldn't first filling them with water > > > and then emptying them displace all explosive gasses? > > > > > > > Some of the problems with tanks and so on is that when cutting or > > welding them with a torch some of the gas enters the tank unburned, > > then when the hole gets large enough to let enough free oxygen, or the > > torch sends more oxygen into the tank, you have an explosive mixture > > just waiting for the worse possible time to say hello. > > > > I have arc welded on tanks after filling them with water and had no > > trouble, and I'll cut them with a metal muncher blade, or cutting > > wheel, but stay away from tanks with torches. > > > > Ken | 8627|8510|2005-08-23 14:27:23|seeratlas|Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :)|Good question, I'll let you know heheheh :) actually, one small and one medium tho. :) Together I need about 30kw available for sustained near hullspeed travel. so instead of one 55 to 60hp diesel main, I'll have maybe one 10 and one 20. Dunno, still workin this out. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ragsdale" wrote: > Seems to me that one small and one large diesel will be more expensive than > one engine sized for max load. Is the noise and small amount extra of fuel > used enought to justify the possibly thousands of dollars difference in > price? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:55 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: $818.00 Etek boat setup. :) > > > > Because of the small dimensions of the DC generators, there's lots of > > room for pto off the generators. I have planned for engine driven > > emergency high capacity pump (which will also drive my hydraulic bow > > thruster), and a hydraulic pump for running windlasses fore and aft. > > My rig actually requires no winches but I was planning on mounting a > > big capstan type centrally for assisting in pulling whatever needs > > pulling :). The reason for two generators is first redundancy and > > second efficiency. Most of the time you run a generator for merely > > recharging the batteries, and in my case using the galley etc. That > > really doesn't require anywhere near the power I need to drive the > > boat at near hull speed up a river against an adverse current, so I'm > > thinking one small and one medium which together give me "1 large" :). > > > > The hard part of this is keeping the costs down to something that > > makes sense. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > > wrote: > > > Hea Seer, > > > > > > What if instead of two generators you had one for charging > > batteries, and a hydrolic pump that would run a main engine, and a > > widless, mabe even some winches? and belted off the main engine, I > > think someone already makes desil powered generators with hydrolic > > pumps on them > > > > > > Jay. > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > Yeah Jim, I did and i was VERY pleased to see that their installation > > > mirrors what I had come up with hehehehe :), belt drive and all :) > > > The installation manual was very useful, and their link to the > > > american distributor also yielded a lot of useful information on that > > > site. > > > > > > The hard part is getting your head around all the different > > > possibilities, you have a full range of voltages, motors, controllers, > > > and gensets, and when you change one, practically all the others > > > necessarily change also, and costs can run riot. It certainly won't be > > > the easiest or cheapest way to go, but, I think I can make it work. > > > > > > The funny part is when you start thinking of how often you run your > > > normal diesel auxillary and for what purpose..:) More often than not, > > > its to recharge the damned batteries LOL, seems silly to have a main > > > propulsion unit around just for that:) BUT, when you need full power, > > > you REALLY NEED full power, so I have to design for that end as well. > > > Fortunately, the electric drive only uses what it needs, so if you > > > only need 4 hp to creep around the dock, that's what you use, and when > > > you need 40kw to power thru a swell over a bar, it can dish that up in > > > a hurry too. :) > > > > > > My current thought is perhaps to use two generators, one small, and > > > one larger such that when I only need a little juice for recharging, > > > or running the micro, that's all I have to use, but when I need full > > > power I can fire em both up and rock and roll. Added complexity etc. > > > but efficiencies and redundancy are good. We'll see. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > > wrote: > > > > Hi Seer; > > > > > > > > I don't know if you came across this website in your search for a > > > > workable and affordable electric drive: > > > > > > > > http://www.asmomarine.com/ > > > > > > > > Maybe of some interest to you. > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8628|8549|2005-08-23 16:06:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: >> With inorganic zinc primer, a wash with TSP and then vinegar , then > water removes any oxide. Hi Brent, What is TSP? Regards, Ted| 8629|8549|2005-08-23 16:27:12|racer577@citystar.com|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Tri sodium phosphate. John >>> With inorganic zinc primer, a wash with TSP and then vinegar , > then >> water removes any oxide. > > Hi Brent, > > What is TSP? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8630|8549|2005-08-23 16:45:02|Wesley Cox|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Not speaking for Brent, of course, but addressing a straight forward Q. Tri-sodium phosphate, commonly used for etch cleaning steel, including automobiles, before painting. I believe it's supposed to (further) oxidize rust and lift it out of the micro texture of the surface. edward_stoneuk wrote: >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > >>> With inorganic zinc primer, a wash with TSP and then vinegar , >>> >>> >then > > >>water removes any oxide. >> >> > >Hi Brent, > >What is TSP? > >Regards, > >Ted > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 8631|8549|2005-08-23 17:39:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Wesley, John, Thanks for the info. What sort of place does one buy it from. Regards, Ted| 8632|8602|2005-08-23 18:24:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade of steel. Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said "Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > Thanks Jim, > yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm > conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as > mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the > stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and > 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel > boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise > using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot > of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of > my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the > sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild > steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than > mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair > before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is > substantially less than with aluminum. > > I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm > thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, > save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to > the house. > > For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that > lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the > concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to > shreds.... > > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > Hi Seeratlas; > > > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > > Jim > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > > be > > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > > water. > > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > > wide > > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > > what, > > > 3 feet? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8633|8549|2005-08-23 20:36:24|Wesley Cox|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Try any automotive parts store that also sells paint (maybe ones that don't) or a welding supply house. edward_stoneuk wrote: >Wesley, John, >Thanks for the info. What sort of place does one buy it from. >Regards, >Ted > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 8634|8602|2005-08-23 20:40:50|Wesley Cox|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Correct, and the same is generally true for steels. Also, increased tensile strength strongly correlates in steels with increased brittleness (hardness), which seer has mentioned. A thinner wall of harder steel would likely be significantly more prone to snap without warning than a thicker walled, less brittle mild steel section. Something else to think about. Gary H. Lucas wrote: >Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little >stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade >of steel. > >Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum >bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength >aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the >calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the >modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said >"Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" > >Gary H. Lucas >----- Original Message ----- >From: "seeratlas" >To: >Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > > > > >>Thanks Jim, >>yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm >>conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as >>mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the >>stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and >>'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel >>boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise >>using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot >>of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of >>my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the >>sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild >>steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than >>mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair >>before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is >>substantially less than with aluminum. >> >>I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm >>thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, >>save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to >>the house. >> >>For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that >>lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the >>concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to >>shreds.... >> >>seer >> >> >>-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: >> >> >>>Hi Seeratlas; >>> >>>I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to >>>the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: >>>http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html >>> >>>I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you >>>probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather >>>than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? >>> >>>I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the >>>North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The >>>yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). >>>It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the >>>boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account >>>but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. >>>Jim >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever >>>>considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would >>>> >>>> >>>be >>> >>> >>>>shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, >>>>while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in >>>>deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper >>>> >>>> >>>water. >>> >>> >>>>Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a >>>>huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his >>>>stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless >>>>bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it >>>>all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the >>>>board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how >>>> >>>> >>>wide >>> >>> >>>>would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? >>>> >>>> >>>>I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or >>>>schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the >>>>end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe >>>> >>>> >>>what, >>> >>> >>>>3 feet? >>>> >>>>seer >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 8635|8635|2005-08-23 21:45:21|ed_lithgow|Cheapo/Free Jigsaw Blades|Hi All Brents post re spark-free cutting using a jigsaw, in the Woodstove Poderings (sic) thread brought this to mind. I break a lot of jigsaw blades, and they are expensive. I break a lot of hacksaw blades too, but I find if I use the (unfortunately more expensive) bi-metallic ("bi-flex" etc) blades (which have a hardened teeth-strip welded to a tougher backing strip) then (a) I dont break nearly as many. (b) When I do I can make jigsaw blades from the broken blades, since I can cut a tang from the backing strip. An ordinary all-hard blade fragment is too hard and brittle. This compensates me for my cack-handedness, which probably isn't character-building. This applies to small, cheapo consumer-type jigsaws of the Black and Decker and Bosch ilk and may not to industrial models more likely to be used by group members, but I thought I'd mention it. Rgds, Ed Lithgow| 8636|8602|2005-08-23 22:26:35|seeratlas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|good thought Gary, I'll ask about that. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little > stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade > of steel. > > Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum > bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength > aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the > calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the > modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said > "Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > > > > Thanks Jim, > > yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm > > conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as > > mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the > > stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and > > 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel > > boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise > > using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot > > of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of > > my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the > > sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild > > steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than > > mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair > > before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is > > substantially less than with aluminum. > > > > I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm > > thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, > > save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to > > the house. > > > > For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that > > lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the > > concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to > > shreds.... > > > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > Hi Seeratlas; > > > > > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > > > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > > > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > > > > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > > > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > > > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > > > > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > > > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > > > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > > > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > > > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > > > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > > > Jim > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > > > be > > > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > > > water. > > > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > > > wide > > > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > > > what, > > > > 3 feet? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8637|8549|2005-08-24 01:47:08|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Most all hardwhear stores have it. It is also good for washing down the house befor repaint it etches and cleans the old paint so the new sticks better. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > Try any automotive parts store that also sells paint (maybe ones that > don't) or a welding supply house. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > >Wesley, John, > >Thanks for the info. What sort of place does one buy it from. > >Regards, > >Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8638|8549|2005-08-24 04:33:42|sae140|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Ted not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > >> With inorganic zinc primer, a wash with TSP and then vinegar , > then > > water removes any oxide. > > Hi Brent, > > What is TSP? > > Regards, > > Ted | 8639|8549|2005-08-24 08:57:10|Dan McKee|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Look up "trisodium phosphate" on the net. sae140 wrote:Ted not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > >> With inorganic zinc primer, a wash with TSP and then vinegar , > then > > water removes any oxide. > > Hi Brent, > > What is TSP? > > Regards, > > Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8640|8602|2005-08-24 09:33:42|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Table 13.1, p184 of Gerr's _The_Elements_of_Boat_Strength_ A242 (Cor-Ten) Ultimate Tensile Strength 70 000 psi (482MPA) Yield Strength 50 000 psi (345MPA) Elongation 19% Endurance Limit 35 000 psi (241MPA) He then lists a bunch of other steel alloys before having in the footnotes: Modulus of elasticity E = 29 000 000 psi (199 182 MPA) ie Gary is right, they are all the same. (and yes the UTS is about 50% higher than 'normal' mild steel) He then discusses using differnt thicknesses (p185); the reason you can use thinner Cor-Ten is not that it is stiffer, it's just that it rusts away slower so you don't need such a large corrosion allowance. Chris Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little > stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade > of steel. > > Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum > bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength > aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the > calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the > modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said > "Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > > > >>Thanks Jim, >>yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm >>conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as >>mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the >>stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and >>'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel >>boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise >>using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot >>of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of >>my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the >>sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild >>steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than >>mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair >>before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is >>substantially less than with aluminum. >> >>I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm >>thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, >>save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to >>the house. >> >>For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that >>lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the >>concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to >>shreds.... >> >>seer >> >> >>-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: >> >>>Hi Seeratlas; >>> >>>I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to >>>the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: >>>http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html >>> >>>I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you >>>probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather >>>than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? >>> >>>I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the >>>North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The >>>yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). >>>It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the >>>boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account >>>but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. >>>Jim >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" >>>wrote: >>> >>>>This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever >>>>considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would >>> >>>be >>> >>>>shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, >>>>while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in >>>>deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper >>> >>>water. >>> >>>>Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a >>>>huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his >>>>stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless >>>>bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it >>>>all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the >>>>board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how >>> >>>wide >>> >>>>would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? >>>> >>>> >>>>I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or >>>>schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the >>>>end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe >>> >>>what, >>> >>>>3 feet? >>>> >>>>seer >> >> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8641|8602|2005-08-24 18:26:12|seeratlas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Gary, I guess I should go pull the manual and look, (i'm asking US STEEL, however) its my understanding that when plate is 'dented' isn't it stretching when doing that? and if its stretching, wouldn't that stretch be determined by its 'tensile' strength? :) I would thus suspect that cor-ten of the same plate thickness would be harder to dent...that seems to me to be equivalent to 'stiffer' insofar as you're referring to its resistance to being dented or oilcanned..... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little > stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade > of steel. > > Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum > bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength > aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the > calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the > modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said > "Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > > > > Thanks Jim, > > yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm > > conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as > > mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the > > stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and > > 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel > > boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise > > using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot > > of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of > > my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the > > sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild > > steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than > > mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair > > before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is > > substantially less than with aluminum. > > > > I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm > > thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, > > save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to > > the house. > > > > For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that > > lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the > > concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to > > shreds.... > > > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > Hi Seeratlas; > > > > > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > > > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > > > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > > > > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > > > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > > > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > > > > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > > > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > > > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > > > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > > > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > > > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > > > Jim > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > > > be > > > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > > > water. > > > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > > > wide > > > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > > > what, > > > > 3 feet? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8642|8602|2005-08-24 18:56:10|seeratlas|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|Here's what Thomas Colvin has to say, and he has apparently found cor-ten very usefull and in fact preferable in building boats. 35 years he's been building em, sooo... maybe it works after all . http://www.thomasecolvin.com/STEEL.htm seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little > stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade > of steel. > > Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum > bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength > aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the > calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the > modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said > "Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > > > > Thanks Jim, > > yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm > > conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as > > mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the > > stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and > > 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel > > boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise > > using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot > > of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of > > my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the > > sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild > > steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than > > mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair > > before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is > > substantially less than with aluminum. > > > > I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm > > thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, > > save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to > > the house. > > > > For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that > > lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the > > concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to > > shreds.... > > > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > Hi Seeratlas; > > > > > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > > > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > > > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > > > > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > > > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > > > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > > > > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > > > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > > > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > > > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > > > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > > > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > > > Jim > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > > > be > > > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > > > water. > > > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > > > wide > > > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > > > what, > > > > 3 feet? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8643|8549|2005-08-24 19:12:27|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Most paint stores have it . It removes any oil or grease. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Wesley, John, > Thanks for the info. What sort of place does one buy it from. > Regards, > Ted | 8644|8635|2005-08-24 19:14:17|brentswain38|Re: Cheapo/Free Jigsaw Blades|I find that Starret, Lenox and Vermont American are some of the best blades . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ed_lithgow" wrote: > Hi All > > Brents post re spark-free cutting using a jigsaw, in the Woodstove > Poderings (sic) thread brought this to mind. > > I break a lot of jigsaw blades, and they are expensive. > I break a lot of hacksaw blades too, but I find if I use the > (unfortunately more expensive) bi-metallic ("bi-flex" etc) blades > (which have a hardened teeth-strip welded to a tougher backing > strip) then > (a) I dont break nearly as many. > (b) When I do I can make jigsaw blades from the broken blades, since > I can cut a tang from the backing strip. An ordinary all-hard blade > fragment is too hard and brittle. > > This compensates me for my cack-handedness, which probably isn't > character-building. > > This applies to small, cheapo consumer-type jigsaws of the Black and > Decker and Bosch ilk and may not to industrial models more likely to > be used by group members, but I thought I'd mention it. > > Rgds, Ed Lithgow | 8645|8602|2005-08-24 19:44:46|Tim|Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler?|While Sea containers are not floating in the water, Containers are subject to salt airs most of the time. To repair an ocean going cargo container, 'Corten' steel must be used foe all patch work........ See the attached statement on any container going down the highway. "Repair only with Corten Steel".... Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 3:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? Here's what Thomas Colvin has to say, and he has apparently found cor-ten very usefull and in fact preferable in building boats. 35 years he's been building em, sooo... maybe it works after all . http://www.thomasecolvin.com/STEEL.htm seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Corten may be 50% higher in tensile strength but I'll bet it is very little > stiffer. Ask your source what the modulus of elasticity is for each grade > of steel. > > Some years ago I had hired a young engineer. He designed an aluminum > bracket that deflected too much. He said we could use high strength > aluminum to make it stiffer and I told him to go ahead and do the > calculations. The next morning he came to see me. He said "You knew the > modulus virtually the same for all grades of aluminum didn't you?" I said > "Yep, and so should you, I'll bet you don't forget again!" > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:27 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Centreboard trunk on bilge keeler? > > > > Thanks Jim, > > yeah i have so many numbers running round my head i missed the 5mm > > conversion :) My understanding is that Corten is about the same as > > mild steel in weight. From communicating with US STEEL who make the > > stuff, I'm told its about 50 percent higher in tensile strength and > > 'stiffer' so that the thinner plate would work well on smaller steel > > boats. It's abrasion resistance is VERY high, however so they advise > > using plasma cutting and being prepared to tear up some gear if a lot > > of finishing is required. For the relatively straightforward shapes of > > my cabin, I would think it would work very well, perhaps even the > > sidedecks. They also told me it will take the same paints as mild > > steel but will handle scratches or gouges considerably better than > > mild, i.e. if it gets scraped you'll have more time to do your repair > > before rusting becomes a problem. The cost differential is > > substantially less than with aluminum. > > > > I didn't catch that reference on the yacht losing its house, but I'm > > thinking that with the corten i'd maintain complete hull integrity, > > save some weight, and still be able to weld my stainless fittings to > > the house. > > > > For some reason I can't get excited about aluminum, maybe its that > > lasting vision of the multimillion superyacht just barely grazing the > > concrete quay pulling out of a slip and ripping the entire quarter to > > shreds.... > > > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > Hi Seeratlas; > > > > > > I solved the problem of performance/shoal draft by adding a bulb to > > > the bottom of my shoal draft keel (as yet untested). Visit: > > > http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/torpedobulbs.html > > > > > > I don't know how this solution would go on a bilge keeler. Also, you > > > probaly want to look at 5mm corten as a replacement for 3/16" rather > > > than 10mm. Is Corten also heavier as well as being stronger? > > > > > > I read an account on the web of a yacht caught in a bad storm in the > > > North Atlanic with a steel hull and a flanged aluminium cabin. The > > > yacht was designed by a well known designer (I think Van de Stadt). > > > It took a lot of green water and ripped the cabin from the hull, the > > > boat was lost, but they were rescued. It was a fascinating account > > > but sorry I couldn't find it again when this discussion started. > > > Jim > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > This one is really off the wall but I wonder if Brent has ever > > > > considered an ultra shoal draft design, where the bilge keels would > > > be > > > > shortened up but still long enough to take the weight of grounding, > > > > while a centreboard trunk with a heavy board could be lowered in > > > > deeper water to give say 7 feet of draft for sailing in deeper > > > water. > > > > Seems to me the box for the board would be easy to weld in, given a > > > > huge pin for the board to rotate on, and a small version of his > > > > stainless hand windlass for raising and lowering..., a stainless > > > > bolted inspection plate on top for servicing the 'workings'...and it > > > > all might work. You'd lose the floor storage in the center for the > > > > board, but if the engine was set back, and tanks to the side, how > > > wide > > > > would the box have to be? 7 or 8 "? > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you'd want some more beam, and a low rig, staysail ketch or > > > > schooner maybe...and ballast placement would be critical, but in the > > > > end , you'd sure open up a lot of cruising ground drawing maybe > > > what, > > > > 3 feet? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8646|7171|2005-08-24 20:09:32|Phil S.|Board etiquette|Every once in a while we all need a reminder about deleting the text you are responding to in a message. Makes for a major pain to read the digests with all that extra text in them. Alex how goes the video? Phil| 8647|8635|2005-08-24 21:45:50|kendall|Re: Cheapo/Free Jigsaw Blades|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I find that Starret, Lenox and Vermont American are some of the best > blades . > Brent Vermont American get my vote whenever I'm the one buying. Morse also makes a great metal cutting blade for a skill saw that works like a dream Package says up to 3/8" thick I think it is, I did use it to cut a 1" x 7" chunk of steel, but I've mainly used it on thinner steel, car and truck frames, sheet metal and so on. back to the sabersaw, use the slowest speed you're comfortable with, otherwise you'll go through blades two or three times faster. Ken.| 8648|8635|2005-08-25 01:28:37|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Cheapo/Free Jigsaw Blades|Artical in this months Workbench on Titanium coated blades saying that for the price the way they wear it is worth it flip through a copy if you can. Jon| 8649|8549|2005-08-25 03:30:55|sae140|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee wrote: > Look up "trisodium phosphate" on the net. > > sae140 wrote:Ted > > not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". > > Colin > Not the most helpful of comments (?) You try looking up trisodium phosphate and sugar soap and see what conclusions you come to .... However, you'd be pretty pushed to find it in UK paint stores or motor factors under it's chemical name. Same goes for muriatic acid (HCl) which apparently can readily be sourced in hardware stores in N.America. I found one mention that trisodium phosphate might be a principle ingredient of dishwasher detergent - worth checking out ? Although sugar soap is a very common paint cleaner over here, it's chemistry is surprisingly obscure. Might be trisodium phosphate, then again, might not be. Colin| 8650|8549|2005-08-25 05:39:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Colin, I agree, info on Google about UK suppliers of TSP is poor. Selleys (Australia) gives the material safety data sheet for its sugar soap which lists sodium tripolyphosphate as an ingredient. You would know if that is the same or similar to TSP. I rang Mangers in the UK and they advised that their sugar soap contained sodium dodecylbenzine sulphonate and sodium polysulphate amongst other things. Regards, Ted| 8651|8651|2005-08-25 09:14:21|Dan McKee|TSP for sandblasted hull|Did not mean to be so terse. "Trisodium phosphate U.K." in Google brought up 9,670 responses listing many vendors in U.K. with many listing uses and sds info. Two possible sources of info are nearby food manufacturers (use a lot) and boiler/steam plants which use TSP in water treatment programs. Rose Chemicals and Fisher Scientific are two companies which carry TSP in the U.K.. Its great stuff and a lot easier on the environment than most solvents. Good luck.| 8652|8651|2005-08-25 11:16:53|khooper_fboats|Re: TSP for sandblasted hull|TSP is also an excellent degreaser for mechanics and is used to boil out engine blocks and heads when rebuilding. The resulting sludge when cooled is supposedly quite benign. I knew a master aircooled mechanic who rebuilt a lot of engines and he used to pour the exhausted TSP sludge on his compost pile to dispose of it (he is still alive last I heard). --Hoop| 8653|8549|2005-08-25 11:34:09|ed_lithgow|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Ha! You should worry. I'm in TAIWAN. Only discovered (when some holes appeared in the floor punctured-Alien-style the first time I used it neat on concrete) that the "mild antiseptic" in the lime green bottle is in fact 20% Hydrochloric Acid. Been splashing around casually, stuff that I'd have worn eye protection, gloves, a labcoat and my very oldest holey jeans for in lab days of yore.The hazards of not reading Mandarin (and buying stuff in a country where they dont feel it necessary to put any kind of symbol on 20% HCL). Scared to buy toothpaste now. Rgds, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee wrote: > > Look up "trisodium phosphate" on the net. > > > > sae140 wrote:Ted > > > > not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". > > > > Colin > > > > Not the most helpful of comments (?) > > You try looking up trisodium phosphate and sugar soap > and see what conclusions you come to .... > > However, you'd be pretty pushed to find it in UK paint > stores or motor factors under it's chemical name. Same > goes for muriatic acid (HCl) which apparently can readily > be sourced in hardware stores in N.America. > > I found one mention that trisodium phosphate might be a > principle ingredient of dishwasher detergent - worth > checking out ? > > Although sugar soap is a very common paint cleaner over > here, it's chemistry is surprisingly obscure. Might be > trisodium phosphate, then again, might not be. > > Colin | 8654|8549|2005-08-25 11:54:39|Michael Casling|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|I think someone mentioned muriatic acid. We used to use that stuff to clean / dissolve the aluminum pieces from the cylinder bore after a piston had seized in the two stroke race bikes. All of this stuff requires some prior knowledge and careful use. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ed_lithgow To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat Ha! You should worry. I'm in TAIWAN. Only discovered (when some holes appeared in the floor punctured-Alien-style the first time I used it neat on concrete) that the "mild antiseptic" in the lime green bottle is in fact 20% Hydrochloric Acid. Been splashing around casually, stuff that I'd have worn eye protection, gloves, a labcoat and my very oldest holey jeans for in lab days of yore.The hazards of not reading Mandarin (and buying stuff in a country where they dont feel it necessary to put any kind of symbol on 20% HCL). Scared to buy toothpaste now. Rgds, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee wrote: > > Look up "trisodium phosphate" on the net. > > > > sae140 wrote:Ted > > > > not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". > > > > Colin > > > > Not the most helpful of comments (?) > > You try looking up trisodium phosphate and sugar soap > and see what conclusions you come to .... > > However, you'd be pretty pushed to find it in UK paint > stores or motor factors under it's chemical name. Same > goes for muriatic acid (HCl) which apparently can readily > be sourced in hardware stores in N.America. > > I found one mention that trisodium phosphate might be a > principle ingredient of dishwasher detergent - worth > checking out ? > > Although sugar soap is a very common paint cleaner over > here, it's chemistry is surprisingly obscure. Might be > trisodium phosphate, then again, might not be. > > Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8655|8651|2005-08-25 12:28:48|edward_stoneuk|Re: TSP for sandblasted hull|Thanks Dan, I was thinking of places to buy it similar to those that I imagine there are in North America. Interestingly when I googled trisodium phosphate UK after ticking the "pages from the UK" button I only got 541 entries instead of 9,720 that I got when I googled it with the "web" button ticked. After the first few pages the web addresses are often repeated or the subject gets far removed from what is required. The first UK entry is Applegate, which is a directory and lists only one TSP supplier, Plater Chemicals. Fisher and Rose Chemicals are there as you say but further on. I would prefer to buy a small amount locally so that I can try it out. I am afraid that I am not sad enough to spend time reading 541 entries about TSP let alone 9,270 so I shall ring these wholesalers and find out price and minimum order. How much do you think one would need for a 36' boat? Regards, Ted| 8656|8549|2005-08-25 14:45:21|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Muriatic acid is a disaster on a steel boat. No matter how hard you try to wash it off, it keeps corroding under the paint, which falls off in sheets. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I think someone mentioned muriatic acid. We used to use that stuff to clean / dissolve the aluminum pieces from the cylinder bore after a piston had seized in the two stroke race bikes. > All of this stuff requires some prior knowledge and careful use. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ed_lithgow > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat > > > Ha! You should worry. I'm in TAIWAN. Only discovered (when some > holes appeared in the floor punctured-Alien-style the first time I > used it neat on concrete) that the "mild antiseptic" in the lime > green bottle is in fact 20% Hydrochloric Acid. Been splashing around > casually, stuff that I'd have worn eye protection, > gloves, a labcoat and my very oldest holey jeans for > in lab days of yore.The hazards of not reading > Mandarin (and buying stuff in a country where they > dont feel it necessary to put any kind of symbol on 20% HCL). Scared > to buy toothpaste now. > > Rgds, Ed Lithgow > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee > wrote: > > > Look up "trisodium phosphate" on the net. > > > > > > sae140 wrote:Ted > > > > > > not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > Not the most helpful of comments (?) > > > > You try looking up trisodium phosphate and sugar soap > > and see what conclusions you come to .... > > > > However, you'd be pretty pushed to find it in UK paint > > stores or motor factors under it's chemical name. Same > > goes for muriatic acid (HCl) which apparently can readily > > be sourced in hardware stores in N.America. > > > > I found one mention that trisodium phosphate might be a > > principle ingredient of dishwasher detergent - worth > > checking out ? > > > > Although sugar soap is a very common paint cleaner over > > here, it's chemistry is surprisingly obscure. Might be > > trisodium phosphate, then again, might not be. > > > > Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada > Yacht > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8657|8531|2005-08-25 22:36:10|John Fisher|Re: woodstove poderings|I've drawn up my wood stove and written a bit of text , to be added to future copies of my book. It's like the Waterford, or Ulefos , 12 inches high, by 18 inches long by 11 1/4 inches wide. Brent Brent, have you given any thought to offering upgrades to your book for those who have already purchased it? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8658|8549|2005-08-25 23:30:46|ed_lithgow|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Thats interesting. I have a seized 2-stroke, (and a bottle of 20% Hydrochloric Acid I need to get rid of) but the cylinder bore is also aluminium. Presumably you could only use acid in this way if the bore was relatively resistant (iron?),and/or you were going to re-bore? I guess racing machines dont go long without a re-bore anyway. Rgds, Ed Lithgow --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I think someone mentioned muriatic acid. We used to use that stuff to clean / dissolve the aluminum pieces from the cylinder bore after a piston had seized in the two stroke race bikes. > All of this stuff requires some prior knowledge and careful use. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ed_lithgow > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat > > > Ha! You should worry. I'm in TAIWAN. Only discovered (when some > holes appeared in the floor punctured-Alien-style the first time I > used it neat on concrete) that the "mild antiseptic" in the lime > green bottle is in fact 20% Hydrochloric Acid. Been splashing around > casually, stuff that I'd have worn eye protection, > gloves, a labcoat and my very oldest holey jeans for > in lab days of yore.The hazards of not reading > Mandarin (and buying stuff in a country where they > dont feel it necessary to put any kind of symbol on 20% HCL). Scared > to buy toothpaste now. > > Rgds, Ed Lithgow > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Dan McKee > wrote: > > > Look up "trisodium phosphate" on the net. > > > > > > sae140 wrote:Ted > > > > > > not 100% sure, but I think this is what we call "Sugar Soap". > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > Not the most helpful of comments (?) > > > > You try looking up trisodium phosphate and sugar soap > > and see what conclusions you come to .... > > > > However, you'd be pretty pushed to find it in UK paint > > stores or motor factors under it's chemical name. Same > > goes for muriatic acid (HCl) which apparently can readily > > be sourced in hardware stores in N.America. > > > > I found one mention that trisodium phosphate might be a > > principle ingredient of dishwasher detergent - worth > > checking out ? > > > > Although sugar soap is a very common paint cleaner over > > here, it's chemistry is surprisingly obscure. Might be > > trisodium phosphate, then again, might not be. > > > > Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada > Yacht > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8659|8549|2005-08-26 08:45:42|John Fisher|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|Ed, the acid works better on cast iron bores due to the difference in material removal rates of aluminum and cast iron. If you have an aluminum cylinder it is probably nikasil plated, so it should work if you can keep the acid on the plating and off the aluminum cylinder itself. I have used q-tips to apply the acid and the wash with water to neutralize. If you damage the plating you would have needed a replating anyway. When I was racing 125's we could get about 6 pistons per plating or about 1800 miles. John -------Original Message------- From: ed_lithgow Date: 08/25/05 21:57:35 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat Thats interesting. I have a seized 2-stroke, (and a bottle of 20% Hydrochloric Acid I need to get rid of) but the cylinder bore is also aluminium. Presumably you could only use acid in this way if the bore was relatively resistant (iron?),and/or you were going to re-bore? I guess racing machines dont go long without a re-bore anyway. Rgds, Ed Lithgow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8660|8651|2005-08-26 19:14:14|Dan McKee|Re: TSP for sandblasted hull|Ted, Usually TSP is used at about 1:30 with hot water for cleaning. For a steel hull I would mix much stronger. A pound per gallon would be 1:8.34 and a 34' boat would take six to ten gallons to wash with rags and brush I expect. A pressure washer with a soap dispenser would be my choice. A good phosphate laundry detergent would do close to the same job. Immediate drying and priming is the most important aspect of the job. The best policy is to only blast to white what can be immediately primed. Then a fast wipe with solvent and priming does the trick. Careful of reclaimed solvents though. They can be contaminated and ruin a paint job. In the US much of the acetone is reclaimed. > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8661|8661|2005-08-27 15:26:43|nadim|Very interresting link|http://www.justmueller.com/boats/index.html| 8662|8531|2005-08-27 17:15:45|brentswain38|Re: woodstove poderings|The problem is I don't have a list of people who have purchased the book , and if I offer it piecemeal, I'll sell very few books. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > I've drawn up my wood stove and written a bit of text , to be added > to future copies of my book. It's like the Waterford, or Ulefos , 12 > inches high, by 18 inches long by 11 1/4 inches wide. > Brent > > Brent, have you given any thought to offering upgrades to your book for > those who have already purchased it? > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8663|1354|2005-08-27 19:24:07|George Ray|Re: Wooden Masts|YACHT DESIGNING AND PLANNING, Howard Chapelle Best, G.Ray --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Abraham George wrote: > I'd be interested if sombody told how to get the > numbers right or the ratios and formulas of making a > wooden mast..... | 8664|869|2005-08-27 20:35:26|George Ray|Re: welding|What about a little MIG machine? Keep in mind through all that follows that the best solution is to spend the time to achieve a good fit and to design the joint so it can be welded in the most comfortable postion. The other post that suggested the copper backing strip is giving good advise. I am felling a bit long winded so here goes..... ******************************* Poor fitup preferred rod: 6010=>DC_reverse or 6011=>AC They are 'fast freeze' require a lot of rod motion. To get the stacked row of coins look one moves in and out of the puddle moving perhaps one puddle diameter. To fill a hot blow hole, one draws the arc away from the hot spot while letting the area cool and then comes back to daub and bit of metal down and then weave away and then repeat on a different part of the hot spot. I have weaved an inch or more repeatedly on a big blow hole. This of course is not the way to get an x-ray good weld but it is what happens in a dredge yard or repair shipyard on poorly fit pieces. Also, Hammer the flux off a rod or rods and lay it/them in the hole and tack it off, hammer it in, tack some more and then melt the excess off with a long arc. Burn the cover passes in and if you are good then it is reasonably strong with little porosity. Not too pretty and certainly not a recomended way to get a quality weld but it works in a pinch. Copper or carbon or steel backing plates would be far superior in terms of maintaining high weld quality. Proper fit and joint design is the best. I think the rod motion required of a fast freeze rod makes it difficult far a beginner to use. It is preferred in the shipyard because 6010 DC reverse it very tolerent of surface contamination as well as being able to fill a poor fit. We would often have to weld through rust, paint, galvinized. It was not the preferred option but it would happen onoccasion and the 6010 would do a good job of it. Try that with a 6013 and it will not work very well. Try that with 7018 and it is a total mess. ********** 6010 welding rods penetrate deeply but have high spatter. They are good for all positions, all types of steel, and almost any conditions and use DC current. (For better penetration on thicker steel over 3/8," bevel the edges and create a gap of about 1/8" wide; use 6010 for tack up and a root pass and weld the remaining passes and the "cap pass" with 7018.) 6010 welding rods need to be stored in a dry location, at room temperature, and in a sealed container. 6011 welding rods have all the characteristics of 6010, are used in all positions with AC or DC current, and work well on all types of regular or mild steel. 6013 has all the characteristics of 6010 but can be used with AC or DC current; it has less penetration and delivers a better-looking weld. Use 6013 on light sheet metal up to 3/16." Use 7018 low-hy, low penetration, on all positions, with AC or DC current. Use the highest amp setting as practical. Use a straightforward "drag" progression with a "short arc." The low moisture make-up of this welding rod reduces chemical reactions in the weld itself and makes for the highest quality x-ray perfect welds. (Note - this electrode must be kept dry. If it's exposed to humid air or gets damp it must be dried in a rod oven before use. See Welding Rods Storage chart.) Use 7024 high deposition welding rods for flat and horizontal positions. It's "easy" to use because its thick flux automatically maintains the correct arc length, which allows you to "drag" the rod. From: 'rodovens.com' *********************** for FULL '6010 vs 6011' discussion see: =>http://www.weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-871.html<= ********************** Having said/typed all that, you might consider a little MIG machine. Tom Colvin seems to like them much and I think you would get better results on thing material, perhaps even less splatter which is a big deal in that splatter cleanup is time consuming and unremoved splatter can kill an otherwise good paint job. Colvin has mentioned that they introduce MUCH less heat into the metals being joined and when you are working with thin gauge material that is an important consideration. I have not used them much as I burned many hundreds of pounds of rods in the shipyard and rods just easy for me. If I am not burning rods I an using TIG. Most auto body shops use MIG machines and the cost seems to have dropped to a very reasonable low price and reliabilty must be good judging by the number of machines sold. I am sure there is much discussion of this (MIG/Rods) in the metal boat forum sponsered by the =>www.MetalBoatSociety.Com Best, G.Ray (Colvin pinky schooner, LOD 40') --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > I finally started welding this weekend. > > There is still a little bit of work on framing and structure, but I > thought I would put some hours in to get welding again after all > these years. > >........... > > Hey, you welding wizards: what's your preferred electrode for > welding nasty seams in thin plating in all positions?? > | 8665|8665|2005-08-29 12:48:05|SHANE ROTHWELL|Airhead toilets & steel repairs|All very interesting but for one thing that the Japanese figured out years ago. they used to use "night soil" to fertilize their fields & all was fine until modern times when trace elements of heavy metals started showing up in the "product". these heavy metals then build up in the soil & when we eat the veggies we ingest more heavy metals.... Heard a good one from a lifer at Seaspan for fast & easy plugging of a hole in steel/whatever. 2 bits of plywood & some ready rod. belt a hole in the plywood & run the ready rod thru one bit of it. apply anything to fill the gaps from the outside (handfull of greese, cushion, bloody anything. shove said ready rod through hole from the outside, from the inside put the other ply onto the ready rod & tighten it up. they use it on barges & whatever & though not pretty it'll get you home under your own power. __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca| 8666|8549|2005-08-29 23:33:48|Michael Casling|Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat|John, what kind of a 125 and where? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fisher To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Sandblasting a blasted and primed boat Ed, the acid works better on cast iron bores due to the difference in material removal rates of aluminum and cast iron. If you have an aluminum cylinder it is probably nikasil plated, so it should work if you can keep the acid on the plating and off the aluminum cylinder itself. I have used q-tips to apply the acid and the wash with water to neutralize. If you damage the plating you would have needed a replating anyway. When I was racing 125's we could get about 6 pistons per plating or about 1800 miles. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8667|8667|2005-08-29 23:44:59|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Welder to e drive question|With all the thoughts on alternater welders and Electric power and hybreds for more power and longer travel under E-drive how would one put them all togather cheaply. Many electric drives are 48 to 120VDC 48 to 60VDC for motors is cheaper for reliabilaty and power trade off. Welders can work at 48 to 60VDC and put out 60 t0 100Amps to cruse so why not use a welder to suply the power for extended travel under power with a generator for other power needs and batteries when less power is needed. Example Etecks at 48VDC running at 100Amps continous put out around 120+ lbin torque and have a life exspectancy of 2000 hrs on the brushes. Jon| 8668|8668|2005-08-30 14:34:45|evanmoonjunk|airhead comments|Hi Gang, I recently installed an airhead for the new owner of my steel version of "China Cloud". It was easy to install and takes about the same space as a regular manual pumping head. I agree that it would be easy to build one for a lot cheaper. There is one thing that no one has mentioned though and that is that the airhead has U.S. coast gaurd approval as a marine sanitary device and that might be important to some people. Personally I think I would just go with the simplest, a "cedar bucket" idea....Evan| 8669|8668|2005-08-30 15:53:34|brentswain38|Re: airhead comments|A bucket has US coastguard aproval as does anything which doesn't discharge overboard. Your home made one wouldn't be disaproved. Thats just a sales pitch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "evanmoonjunk" wrote: > Hi Gang, I recently installed an airhead for the new owner of my > steel version of "China Cloud". It was easy to install and takes about > the same space as a regular manual pumping head. I agree that it would > be easy to build one for a lot cheaper. There is one thing that no one > has mentioned though and that is that the airhead has U.S. coast gaurd > approval as a marine sanitary device and that might be important to > some people. Personally I think I would just go with the simplest, > a "cedar bucket" idea....Evan | 8670|8667|2005-08-30 15:57:22|brentswain38|Re: Welder to e drive question|It takes power to turn thee welder. With every change there is a power loss. A generatr may be 60% efficient which goes to a battery which is around 20% efficient which goes to an electric motor which is 40% effficient , etc etc. The less between your original source of power and the prop , the better.Bolt the prop to whatever would make your welder go round. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > With all the thoughts on alternater welders and Electric power and > hybreds for more power and longer travel under E-drive how would one > put them all togather cheaply. Many electric drives are 48 to 120VDC 48 > to 60VDC for motors is cheaper for reliabilaty and power trade off. > Welders can work at 48 to 60VDC and put out 60 t0 100Amps to cruse so > why not use a welder to suply the power for extended travel under power > with a generator for other power needs and batteries when less power is > needed. Example Etecks at 48VDC running at 100Amps continous put out > around 120+ lbin torque and have a life exspectancy of 2000 hrs on the > brushes. > > Jon | 8671|22|2005-08-30 20:49:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Seer's Swain based 43 Schooner/M42wingschoon15.bmp Uploaded by : seeratlas Description : LongHouseBlackHull You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Seer%27s%20%20Swain%20based%2043%20Schooner/M42wingschoon15.bmp To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, seeratlas | 8672|8672|2005-08-30 22:52:09|kingsknight4life|pilothouse hatch???|Hi. I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a hatch in their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking on the trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know of one owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation when the pilothose door is closed?? Thanks Rowland| 8673|8672|2005-08-31 09:52:47|Puck III|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Hi Rowland, your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my pilothouse, one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are in front of the mast when docking :-) All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy drying out on a beach . I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links you will find more than 100 pics how to design and build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) second : the volume will increase righting arm and ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . Feel free to ask more info. Regards Old Ben. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Hi. > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a hatch in > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking on the > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know of one > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation when the > pilothose door is closed?? > > Thanks Rowland | 8674|8672|2005-08-31 10:38:51|seeratlas|Re: pilothouse hatch???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Rowland, > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my pilothouse, > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > in front of the mast when docking :-) > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > drying out on a beach . > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important I have 3 hatches designed into the house roof, course my PH is quite a bit longer than most. There are two forward, one over the steering station for the same reasons as ben has posted, another just over to port from there over the forward dinette/settee, and one aft and to port over the galley for those times when you have to cook inside but its too darn hot :)..The aft one is also just forward of the forward cockpit steering station which is to port, so makes for handy communication from the semi sheltered steering station to whomever is the unlucky soul manning the galley :) hehehehe. You might consider mounting the hinge points such that the hatch can be rotated to opened in more than one direction. Very handy when at anchor. seer > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > Feel free to ask more info. > Regards > Old Ben. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > Hi. > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a hatch in > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking on the > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know of one > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation when > the > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8675|8672|2005-08-31 12:06:44|edward_stoneuk|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Rowland, I am putting a "traditional" sliding hatch with drop boards or little doors in my BS36 pilot house; mainly for the reasons you describe but also so that I can just pop my head and shoulders out to adjust the running rigging, which will be cleated either side of it. Also I fear a wave or squall slamming a hinged door shut trapping my hand or head when I am half way out. I wasn't going to put the stove in the pilot house because with the chart table, instruments, seating for a couple or three, a pilot berth and perhaps a steering wheel there isn't a lot of room. The ventilation of the stove is a concern if one is to avoid excessive condensation and smelling like a short order cook, and putting it in the pilot house is a good idea from that point of view. At the moment we are making the water and diesel tank tops. There are photos of our (Ted & Fiona's) boat in the origamiboats two page. Regards, Ted| 8676|8672|2005-08-31 12:10:23|Puck III|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Hi Seer , I had a look at the nice file you posted , any chance we see it combined with an interior arrangement sketch? I must confess to be a bit sceptical about forward vision with such a low house , did you stop reading at the 2 mayor factors important to design a happy wheelhouse ?? a retractable bowsprit would be fine on your design , a gaffwishboom would also give a bit more power when needed , that way you would have all possible area well filled :-) just a tought , hehehe Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Rowland, > > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my pilothouse, > > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > > in front of the mast when docking :-) > > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > > drying out on a beach . > > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important > I have 3 hatches designed into the house roof, course my PH is quite a > bit longer than most. There are two forward, one over the steering > station for the same reasons as ben has posted, another just over to > port from there over the forward dinette/settee, and one aft and to > port over the galley for those times when you have to cook inside but > its too darn hot :)..The aft one is also just forward of the forward > cockpit steering station which is to port, so makes for handy > communication from the semi sheltered steering station to whomever is > the unlucky soul manning the galley :) hehehehe. > > You might consider mounting the hinge points such that the hatch can > be rotated to opened in more than one direction. Very handy when at > anchor. Goiot used to make a standard hatch like you discribe, I used it on many boats with total satisfaction , but it was a bit expensive so I wonder if it is still in production?? > > seer > > > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > > Feel free to ask more info. > > Regards > > Old Ben. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > Hi. > > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a hatch in > > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking on the > > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know of one > > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation when > > the > > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8677|8672|2005-08-31 13:52:43|seeratlas|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Ben, I agree, very difficult to hit the right balance of house height and sightlines over and around the bow, and the end result will be a bit higher than pictured, how much, still to be determined. There are several considerations that I'm just going to have to mock up before I settle on a final. :) As an initial design consideration, this boat will have a lot of electronics on board, including what amounts to a forward looking sonar with proximity alarm. The inside station is not intended to be used for close manuevering, at least not when the hatch is closed :) With it open and the adjustable height captain's chair, I can get high enough to stick my head clear out, even sub the hatch for a 'bubble' if I wish. Further, since the inside steering station is at the very front of the house, and to the starboard side, I won't be looking straight over the sprit, but actually to the starboard side of it. Even more so when the boat is rail down when sailing. So that mitigates the height requirement, Still, it goes without saying that eye level will have to be above the bow, just need to figure out how much. :) Of course in good weather, the hatch will be open and the seat pumped up and I'll be above cabin top level, should I have some good reason to be on the inside station under those conditions anyway :) Most of steering will most likely be from the partially enclosed station at the forward end of the cockpit. From there I'll be able to see everything all the time, adjust the sheets and attend to pretty much all ship functions. Now, I have finally figured out how I want to do my bowsprit. Since for the canals I want to have some kind of 'bumper' I finally decided on a stainless shaft secured to a welded plate on the foredeck and tied in structurally to various points, as the rollers for the bow anchors will also be affixed to the side of this shaft. The sprit 'extension' will hinge onto the front of this and can either be swung up or to the side, to temporarily shorten the ship hehehe, or removed entirely when the masts come down for the canals, and suitable tire-tread covered 'bumper' extension affixxed in its place for 'love tapping' barges and lock gates and walls :) The ground tackle is not affected by that change. I agree the wishbone would add some power but at added weight and complexity with my sail handling arrangment. If you look at those pictures of the sprit booms on the racing cat using the 'softwing' sail setup, you'll see they are loosefooted thus allowing good sail shape clear to the foot. The gaffs themselves are fitted into sail tubes sewn into the tops of the sails. These tubes are essentially the top of the sail rolled over and around the gaff to form a pocket. This area is lined with heavy fabric designed to minimize abrasion, and strengthen the top of the sail. Since the contact area with the gaff is huge, wear/stress should not be a problem, especially compared to the more normal affixing at 'points' technique which concentrates the stress on those points on the sail. The same applies to the sail where it affixes to the mast, plus i avoid hoops, slides, grommets, the whole nine yards. The sails themselves are to be cut down from used larger racing sails, i.e. take the triangle and chop off the top, and voila, you have a 4 sided trapezoidal which is the shape of my 'wings'. when you figure the design considerations for making a marconi racing sale strong enough to take those loads, then translate that into the much easier life of a smaller gaff sail, these things should live for as long as I can protect them from the UV, thus my previous thread on painting/coloring the sails :) Still toying with the idea of black sails LOL. would be hell at night but a good masthead light handles that, and it sure would cut the glare on deck LOL. Anyway, I think I get the benefit of the wishbone gaff/boom and avoid the weight etc. by using the loosefooted aluminum strut boom and 'tube' gaffs as I've described. As for power, present rig sketches indicate something just short of 1200 sq.ft. on a 40 ft. waterline with a displacement around 29-30k, all that on the four lowers. Add in the fisherman between the masts, or inextreme situations, a Gollywobbler and, well, lots of string to play with should someone want to go out and play 'cruiser racer' :) I suppose I could even take the spare mainsail, throw it on the foremast, lose the boom and treat it like a giant loosefooted staysail :) Given enough deckhands, I'm sure I could figure out something to keep everyone busy LOL. Ok so now I've told you more than you ever wanted to know :) There is a not quite to scale mock up of the interior in my files folder, under Interior 3 I think. The one matched up to present scale is not quite finished yet so I havn't uploaded that, but the basic setup is the same. As you can see I'm pushing interior capacity to the max, but at a hair over 43 on deck, this is a pretty good sized boat, and I'm finding that with careful attention to dimensions that I actually need (I'm just under 6'4), that the raised extended cabin with associated raised cabin sole, gives me a lot to play with. You'll notice that as far as the eye is concerned, almost the entire interior is open to the eye from pretty much anywhere except the aft cabin which is mostly under the cockpit, and with the cabin door open, even that is visible. However, the floor space is pretty much fully utilized by multilevel seating, and extensive use of small spaces/nooks and crannies for logical storage. This is not a simple interior, either to design or construct, but considering I'm going to live on this boat for several years at least, it offers a huge amount of flexibility, especially for dealing with intermittent guests in which case at night I can divide up into essentially 3 private cabin areas, each with private access to a head/shower. On the other hand, if I have my way, you can bet that THAT isn't going to be happening with much frequency LOL> :) Oh, Ben , you forgot the biggest advantage of the extended cabin top :) heheheh Gives me plenty of room to stow my flying dinghy I've designed :) LOL. (for those who think I'm kidding, take a look here:) http://www.flyingboatadventures.com/gallery.htm Only difference is that my FIB design is stronger, lighter, and folds up to the size of a thick surfboard:)and will stow strapped down on the cabin top. It can be unleashed and ready for 'dinghy duty' in about 3 minutes:) oh and costs one helluvalot less :) heheh Seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Seer , I had a look at the nice file you posted , > any chance we see it combined with an interior arrangement sketch? > I must confess to be a bit sceptical about forward vision > with such a low house , did you stop reading at the 2 > mayor factors important to design a happy wheelhouse ?? > a retractable bowsprit would be fine on your design , > a gaffwishboom would also give a bit more power when > needed , that way you would have all possible area well filled :-) > > just a tought , hehehe > > Old Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" Ben, ote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > Hi Rowland, > > > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my pilothouse, > > > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > > > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > > > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > > > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > > > in front of the mast when docking :-) > > > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > > > drying out on a beach . > > > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > > > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > > > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > > > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > > > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > > > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important > > I have 3 hatches designed into the house roof, course my PH is > quite a > > bit longer than most. There are two forward, one over the steering > > station for the same reasons as ben has posted, another just over > to > > port from there over the forward dinette/settee, and one aft and to > > port over the galley for those times when you have to cook inside > but > > its too darn hot :)..The aft one is also just forward of the > forward > > cockpit steering station which is to port, so makes for handy > > communication from the semi sheltered steering station to whomever > is > > the unlucky soul manning the galley :) hehehehe. > > > > You might consider mounting the hinge points such that the hatch > can > > be rotated to opened in more than one direction. Very handy when at > > anchor. > > Goiot used to make a standard hatch like you discribe, > I used it on many boats with total satisfaction , but it > was a bit expensive so I wonder if it is still in production?? > > > > seer > > > > > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > > > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > > > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > > > Feel free to ask more info. > > > Regards > > > Old Ben. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > Hi. > > > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a > hatch in > > > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking > on the > > > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know > of one > > > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation > when > > > the > > > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8678|8672|2005-08-31 14:51:53|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|i have one over the steering seat which I can stick my head out for a better look around. I don't use it much, but it does improve ventilation. Would I do it again. 50- 50 decision. ot sure. A window would give good visibility for the sails. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Hi. > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a hatch in > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking on the > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know of one > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation when the > pilothose door is closed?? > > Thanks Rowland | 8679|8672|2005-08-31 15:00:27|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Sliding hatches and drop boards are an extremely primitive and clumsey arrangement to use and impossible to get truly watertight.They are the most piss poor arrangement possible, kept alive only by blind adherence to tradition.Rsecue boats and most commercial boats gave them up decades ago. If the back of the pilot house has a 25 degree slope, it's extremely unlikely to slam closed( in 30 years of full time cruising ,and 8 Pacific crossings , I've never had it happen)An aluminium hatch is almost as light as cardboard , and unlikely to cause injury. If the latch is made right with the inside bar at 90 degrees to the outside one, you have to lift one in order to close the door, making it impossible for the door to slam shut by itself.At sea I loop a piece of line around the handle from one of the cleats on the back of the pilothouse. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Rowland, > > I am putting a "traditional" sliding hatch with drop boards or > little doors in my BS36 pilot house; mainly for the reasons you > describe but also so that I can just pop my head and shoulders out > to adjust the running rigging, which will be cleated either side of > it. Also I fear a wave or squall slamming a hinged door shut > trapping my hand or head when I am half way out. > > I wasn't going to put the stove in the pilot house because with the > chart table, instruments, seating for a couple or three, a pilot > berth and perhaps a steering wheel there isn't a lot of room. > > The ventilation of the stove is a concern if one is to avoid > excessive condensation and smelling like a short order cook, and > putting it in the pilot house is a good idea from that point of > view. > > At the moment we are making the water and diesel tank tops. There > are photos of our (Ted & Fiona's) boat in the origamiboats two page. > > Regards, > Ted | 8680|8672|2005-08-31 15:10:17|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|The more you raise the pilothouse the less you are able to use the space under the side decks for counterspace. Once the pilothouse is high enough to enable you to see over the bow , there is absolutely no advantage in going higher. In any swell , you see the whole horizon when on the face of every wave. Underway, simply occasionally joging the helm from side to side ,gives you a good scan of the horizon. No one ever docks from inside the pilothouse unless there is no other option . It is mainly used for longer trips. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Ben, > > I agree, very difficult to hit the right balance of house height and > sightlines over and around the bow, and the end result will be a bit > higher than pictured, how much, still to be determined. There are > several considerations that I'm just going to have to mock up before I > settle on a final. :) > > As an initial design consideration, this boat will have a lot of > electronics on board, including what amounts to a forward looking > sonar with proximity alarm. The inside station is not intended to be > used for close manuevering, at least not when the hatch is closed :) > With it open and the adjustable height captain's chair, I can get high > enough to stick my head clear out, even sub the hatch for a 'bubble' > if I wish. Further, since the inside steering station is at the very > front of the house, and to the starboard side, I won't be looking > straight over the sprit, but actually to the starboard side of it. > Even more so when the boat is rail down when sailing. So that > mitigates the height requirement, Still, it goes without saying that > eye level will have to be above the bow, just need to figure out how > much. :) > > Of course in good weather, the hatch will be open and the seat pumped > up and I'll be above cabin top level, should I have some good reason > to be on the inside station under those conditions anyway :) > > Most of steering will most likely be from the partially enclosed > station at the forward end of the cockpit. From there I'll be able to > see everything all the time, adjust the sheets and attend to pretty > much all ship functions. > > Now, I have finally figured out how I want to do my bowsprit. Since > for the canals I want to have some kind of 'bumper' I finally decided > on a stainless shaft secured to a welded plate on the foredeck and > tied in structurally to various points, as the rollers for the bow > anchors will also be affixed to the side of this shaft. The sprit > 'extension' will hinge onto the front of this and can either be swung > up or to the side, to temporarily shorten the ship hehehe, or removed > entirely when the masts come down for the canals, and suitable > tire-tread covered 'bumper' extension affixxed in its place for 'love > tapping' barges and lock gates and walls :) The ground tackle is not > affected by that change. > > I agree the wishbone would add some power but at added weight and > complexity with my sail handling arrangment. If you look at those > pictures of the sprit booms on the racing cat using the 'softwing' > sail setup, you'll see they are loosefooted thus allowing good sail > shape clear to the foot. The gaffs themselves are fitted into sail > tubes sewn into the tops of the sails. These tubes are essentially the > top of the sail rolled over and around the gaff to form a pocket. This > area is lined with heavy fabric designed to minimize abrasion, and > strengthen the top of the sail. Since the contact area with the gaff > is huge, wear/stress should not be a problem, especially compared to > the more normal affixing at 'points' technique which concentrates the > stress on those points on the sail. The same applies to the sail where > it affixes to the mast, plus i avoid hoops, slides, grommets, the > whole nine yards. The sails themselves are to be cut down from used > larger racing sails, i.e. take the triangle and chop off the top, and > voila, you have a 4 sided trapezoidal which is the shape of my 'wings'. > when you figure the design considerations for making a marconi racing > sale strong enough to take those loads, then translate that into the > much easier life of a smaller gaff sail, these things should live for > as long as I can protect them from the UV, thus my previous thread on > painting/coloring the sails :) Still toying with the idea of black > sails LOL. would be hell at night but a good masthead light handles > that, and it sure would cut the glare on deck LOL. > > Anyway, I think I get the benefit of the wishbone gaff/boom and avoid > the weight etc. by using the loosefooted aluminum strut boom and > 'tube' gaffs as I've described. > > As for power, present rig sketches indicate something just short of > 1200 sq.ft. on a 40 ft. waterline with a displacement around 29-30k, > all that on the four lowers. Add in the fisherman between the masts, > or inextreme situations, a Gollywobbler and, well, lots of string to > play with should someone want to go out and play 'cruiser racer' :) > > I suppose I could even take the spare mainsail, throw it on the > foremast, lose the boom and treat it like a giant loosefooted staysail > :) Given enough deckhands, I'm sure I could figure out something to > keep everyone busy LOL. > > Ok so now I've told you more than you ever wanted to know :) There is > a not quite to scale mock up of the interior in my files folder, under > Interior 3 I think. The one matched up to present scale is not quite > finished yet so I havn't uploaded that, but the basic setup is the > same. As you can see I'm pushing interior capacity to the max, but at > a hair over 43 on deck, this is a pretty good sized boat, and I'm > finding that with careful attention to dimensions that I actually need > (I'm just under 6'4), that the raised extended cabin with associated > raised cabin sole, gives me a lot to play with. You'll notice that as > far as the eye is concerned, almost the entire interior is open to the > eye from pretty much anywhere except the aft cabin which is mostly > under the cockpit, and with the cabin door open, even that is visible. > However, the floor space is pretty much fully utilized by multilevel > seating, and extensive use of small spaces/nooks and crannies for > logical storage. This is not a simple interior, either to design or > construct, but considering I'm going to live on this boat for several > years at least, it offers a huge amount of flexibility, especially for > dealing with intermittent guests in which case at night I can divide > up into essentially 3 private cabin areas, each with private access to > a head/shower. On the other hand, if I have my way, you can bet that > THAT isn't going to be happening with much frequency LOL> :) > > Oh, Ben , you forgot the biggest advantage of the extended cabin top > :) heheheh Gives me plenty of room to stow my flying dinghy I've > designed :) LOL. > (for those who think I'm kidding, take a look here:) > > http://www.flyingboatadventures.com/gallery.htm > > Only difference is that my FIB design is stronger, lighter, and folds > up to the size of a thick surfboard:)and will stow strapped down on > the cabin top. It can be unleashed and ready for 'dinghy duty' in > about 3 minutes:) oh and costs one helluvalot less :) heheh > > Seer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Seer , I had a look at the nice file you posted , > > any chance we see it combined with an interior arrangement sketch? > > I must confess to be a bit sceptical about forward vision > > with such a low house , did you stop reading at the 2 > > mayor factors important to design a happy wheelhouse ?? > > a retractable bowsprit would be fine on your design , > > a gaffwishboom would also give a bit more power when > > needed , that way you would have all possible area well filled :-) > > > > just a tought , hehehe > > > > Old Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > Ben, > > > ote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > > Hi Rowland, > > > > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my pilothouse, > > > > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > > > > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > > > > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > > > > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > > > > in front of the mast when docking :-) > > > > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > > > > drying out on a beach . > > > > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > > > > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > > > > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > > > > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > > > > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > > > > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important > > > I have 3 hatches designed into the house roof, course my PH is > > quite a > > > bit longer than most. There are two forward, one over the steering > > > station for the same reasons as ben has posted, another just over > > to > > > port from there over the forward dinette/settee, and one aft and to > > > port over the galley for those times when you have to cook inside > > but > > > its too darn hot :)..The aft one is also just forward of the > > forward > > > cockpit steering station which is to port, so makes for handy > > > communication from the semi sheltered steering station to whomever > > is > > > the unlucky soul manning the galley :) hehehehe. > > > > > > You might consider mounting the hinge points such that the hatch > > can > > > be rotated to opened in more than one direction. Very handy when at > > > anchor. > > > > Goiot used to make a standard hatch like you discribe, > > I used it on many boats with total satisfaction , but it > > was a bit expensive so I wonder if it is still in production?? > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > > > > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > > > > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > > > > Feel free to ask more info. > > > > Regards > > > > Old Ben. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi. > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a > > hatch in > > > > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking > > on the > > > > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know > > of one > > > > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation > > when > > > > the > > > > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8681|8672|2005-08-31 15:40:30|kingsknight4life|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Thanks for the replies. My main goal was to use the hatch to ventilate the galley. I figured if it was useful for trimming sails I'd consider purchasing a hatch or construct one out of plexi or lexan. If it was for ventilation only I'd make it out of some spare marine aluminum that I have lying around. Rowland ps Brent have you made an airhead yet? Bev and I went to look at "Evan's" boat and ran into Scott. He took us aboard his boat and gave us a tour and answered "ALOT" of questions. I can only hope our boat turns out 1/2 as nice as his.| 8682|8672|2005-08-31 15:42:02|seeratlas|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Brent, that was my thinking in trying to stay with a low house. The idea being that in bad weather on a sea voyage, I could see enough to get by and wouldn't have to risk my life running outside to check instruments and take a look around. Bad weather is rarely accompanied by flat calm seas :) hehehe so I figured if I could just barely eyeball around the sprit in the calm, that would give me more than enough in a seaway. Besides, I can see no good way to keep what i consider a nice 'look' to cabin top and sheer with a taller house :) heheh. Like most others, for close manuevering, moderate to great sailing etc. I have gone for the visually unimpeded outside station, partially protected at the front of the cockpit where I can work the sails, and pretty much the whole ship, besides, as a singlehander (well mostly) I need to be able to quickly get to any part of the ship in a hurry, something impossible from inside a house in any event. Seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The more you raise the pilothouse the less you are able to use the > space under the side decks for counterspace. > Once the pilothouse is high enough to enable you to see over the > bow , there is absolutely no advantage in going higher. > In any swell , you see the whole horizon when on the face of every > wave. Underway, simply occasionally joging the helm from side to > side ,gives you a good scan of the horizon. > No one ever docks from inside the pilothouse unless there is no > other option . It is mainly used for longer trips. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Ben, > > > > I agree, very difficult to hit the right balance of house height and > > sightlines over and around the bow, and the end result will be a bit > > higher than pictured, how much, still to be determined. There are > > several considerations that I'm just going to have to mock up > before I > > settle on a final. :) > > > > As an initial design consideration, this boat will have a lot of > > electronics on board, including what amounts to a forward looking > > sonar with proximity alarm. The inside station is not intended to > be > > used for close manuevering, at least not when the hatch is > closed :) > > With it open and the adjustable height captain's chair, I can get > high > > enough to stick my head clear out, even sub the hatch for a 'bubble' > > if I wish. Further, since the inside steering station is at the > very > > front of the house, and to the starboard side, I won't be looking > > straight over the sprit, but actually to the starboard side of it. > > Even more so when the boat is rail down when sailing. So that > > mitigates the height requirement, Still, it goes without saying that > > eye level will have to be above the bow, just need to figure out how > > much. :) > > > > Of course in good weather, the hatch will be open and the seat > pumped > > up and I'll be above cabin top level, should I have some good reason > > to be on the inside station under those conditions anyway :) > > > > Most of steering will most likely be from the partially enclosed > > station at the forward end of the cockpit. From there I'll be able > to > > see everything all the time, adjust the sheets and attend to pretty > > much all ship functions. > > > > Now, I have finally figured out how I want to do my bowsprit. Since > > for the canals I want to have some kind of 'bumper' I finally > decided > > on a stainless shaft secured to a welded plate on the foredeck and > > tied in structurally to various points, as the rollers for the bow > > anchors will also be affixed to the side of this shaft. The sprit > > 'extension' will hinge onto the front of this and can either be > swung > > up or to the side, to temporarily shorten the ship hehehe, or > removed > > entirely when the masts come down for the canals, and suitable > > tire-tread covered 'bumper' extension affixxed in its place > for 'love > > tapping' barges and lock gates and walls :) The ground tackle is not > > affected by that change. > > > > I agree the wishbone would add some power but at added weight and > > complexity with my sail handling arrangment. If you look at those > > pictures of the sprit booms on the racing cat using the 'softwing' > > sail setup, you'll see they are loosefooted thus allowing good sail > > shape clear to the foot. The gaffs themselves are fitted into sail > > tubes sewn into the tops of the sails. These tubes are essentially > the > > top of the sail rolled over and around the gaff to form a pocket. > This > > area is lined with heavy fabric designed to minimize abrasion, and > > strengthen the top of the sail. Since the contact area with the gaff > > is huge, wear/stress should not be a problem, especially compared to > > the more normal affixing at 'points' technique which concentrates > the > > stress on those points on the sail. The same applies to the sail > where > > it affixes to the mast, plus i avoid hoops, slides, grommets, the > > whole nine yards. The sails themselves are to be cut down from used > > larger racing sails, i.e. take the triangle and chop off the top, > and > > voila, you have a 4 sided trapezoidal which is the shape of > my 'wings'. > > when you figure the design considerations for making a marconi > racing > > sale strong enough to take those loads, then translate that into the > > much easier life of a smaller gaff sail, these things should live > for > > as long as I can protect them from the UV, thus my previous thread > on > > painting/coloring the sails :) Still toying with the idea of black > > sails LOL. would be hell at night but a good masthead light handles > > that, and it sure would cut the glare on deck LOL. > > > > Anyway, I think I get the benefit of the wishbone gaff/boom and > avoid > > the weight etc. by using the loosefooted aluminum strut boom and > > 'tube' gaffs as I've described. > > > > As for power, present rig sketches indicate something just short of > > 1200 sq.ft. on a 40 ft. waterline with a displacement around 29-30k, > > all that on the four lowers. Add in the fisherman between the masts, > > or inextreme situations, a Gollywobbler and, well, lots of string to > > play with should someone want to go out and play 'cruiser racer' :) > > > > I suppose I could even take the spare mainsail, throw it on the > > foremast, lose the boom and treat it like a giant loosefooted > staysail > > :) Given enough deckhands, I'm sure I could figure out something to > > keep everyone busy LOL. > > > > Ok so now I've told you more than you ever wanted to know :) There > is > > a not quite to scale mock up of the interior in my files folder, > under > > Interior 3 I think. The one matched up to present scale is not > quite > > finished yet so I havn't uploaded that, but the basic setup is the > > same. As you can see I'm pushing interior capacity to the max, but > at > > a hair over 43 on deck, this is a pretty good sized boat, and I'm > > finding that with careful attention to dimensions that I actually > need > > (I'm just under 6'4), that the raised extended cabin with > associated > > raised cabin sole, gives me a lot to play with. You'll notice that > as > > far as the eye is concerned, almost the entire interior is open to > the > > eye from pretty much anywhere except the aft cabin which is mostly > > under the cockpit, and with the cabin door open, even that is > visible. > > However, the floor space is pretty much fully utilized by multilevel > > seating, and extensive use of small spaces/nooks and crannies for > > logical storage. This is not a simple interior, either to design or > > construct, but considering I'm going to live on this boat for > several > > years at least, it offers a huge amount of flexibility, especially > for > > dealing with intermittent guests in which case at night I can divide > > up into essentially 3 private cabin areas, each with private access > to > > a head/shower. On the other hand, if I have my way, you can bet that > > THAT isn't going to be happening with much frequency LOL> :) > > > > Oh, Ben , you forgot the biggest advantage of the extended cabin top > > :) heheheh Gives me plenty of room to stow my flying dinghy I've > > designed :) LOL. > > (for those who think I'm kidding, take a look here:) > > > > http://www.flyingboatadventures.com/gallery.htm > > > > Only difference is that my FIB design is stronger, lighter, and > folds > > up to the size of a thick surfboard:)and will stow strapped down on > > the cabin top. It can be unleashed and ready for 'dinghy duty' in > > about 3 minutes:) oh and costs one helluvalot less :) heheh > > > > Seer > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > wrote: > > > Hi Seer , I had a look at the nice file you posted , > > > any chance we see it combined with an interior arrangement sketch? > > > I must confess to be a bit sceptical about forward vision > > > with such a low house , did you stop reading at the 2 > > > mayor factors important to design a happy wheelhouse ?? > > > a retractable bowsprit would be fine on your design , > > > a gaffwishboom would also give a bit more power when > > > needed , that way you would have all possible area well filled :-) > > > > > > just a tought , hehehe > > > > > > Old Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > Ben, > > > > > > ote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Rowland, > > > > > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my > pilothouse, > > > > > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > > > > > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > > > > > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > > > > > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > > > > > in front of the mast when docking :-) > > > > > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > > > > > drying out on a beach . > > > > > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > > > > > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > > > > > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > > > > > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > > > > > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > > > > > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important > > > > I have 3 hatches designed into the house roof, course my PH is > > > quite a > > > > bit longer than most. There are two forward, one over the > steering > > > > station for the same reasons as ben has posted, another just > over > > > to > > > > port from there over the forward dinette/settee, and one aft > and to > > > > port over the galley for those times when you have to cook > inside > > > but > > > > its too darn hot :)..The aft one is also just forward of the > > > forward > > > > cockpit steering station which is to port, so makes for handy > > > > communication from the semi sheltered steering station to > whomever > > > is > > > > the unlucky soul manning the galley :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > You might consider mounting the hinge points such that the > hatch > > > can > > > > be rotated to opened in more than one direction. Very handy > when at > > > > anchor. > > > > > > Goiot used to make a standard hatch like you discribe, > > > I used it on many boats with total satisfaction , but it > > > was a bit expensive so I wonder if it is still in production?? > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > > > > > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > > > > > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > > > > > Feel free to ask more info. > > > > > Regards > > > > > Old Ben. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi. > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a > > > hatch in > > > > > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for > checking > > > on the > > > > > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I > know > > > of one > > > > > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for > ventilation > > > when > > > > > the > > > > > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8683|8672|2005-08-31 16:46:47|edward_stoneuk|Re: pilothouse hatch???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: Underway, simply occasionally joging the helm from side to > side ,gives you a good scan of the horizon. Brent, One can expect some commercial boats to be travelling at 30 knots. From appearing on the horizon to running one down could take 10 minutes. It is not unkown for the boat to be on autopilot and the officer of the watch to be asleep. One such incident caused a cargo vessel to hit the Nab Tower off the Isle of Wight some 20 miles or so from Southampton where the officer of the watch had been loading the vessel all day. In another similar incident a German Cargo vessel hit Cornwall when the Officer of the watch tripped and knocked himself unconcious. In 2002 the car carrier Tricolour was wrecked after a collision with a container ship and sank laying on its side still partially visible 20 miles off the French channel cost. In the 2 years it took to clear the wreck, and despite it being signed and a well known danger, with salvage and coastguard vessels in attendance two other vessels hit it. I would not regard reliance on the overtaking rule of the ColRegs as a good idea. Jogging the helm from side to side, unless the boat does a 360° loop does not give a scan of the horizon. A pilot house with no rear view is less than ideal for busy commercial waters. Regards, Ted| 8684|8672|2005-08-31 16:59:28|edward_stoneuk|Re: pilothouse hatch???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sliding hatches and drop boards are an extremely primitive and > clumsey arrangement to use and impossible to get truly > watertight.They are the most piss poor arrangement possible, kept > alive only by blind adherence to tradition.Rsecue boats and most > commercial boats gave them up decades ago. Brent, When you say truly water tight, do you mean if the boat rolled over the sea wouldn't come in? The sliding hatches on all the boats I have sailed on keep the rain and waves out OK. Rescue boats and commercial boats have full height deck houses and no sails to trim so sliding hatches would not make sense. Although I have welded the slides on for a sliding hatch I am still of an open mind, but your comment "kept alive only by blind adherence to tradition" is not intellectually compelling enough for me. Regards Ted| 8685|8672|2005-08-31 19:46:29|Puck III|Re: pilothouse hatch???|People that almost live on their boat are the Fisherman, they use those boats every day , ofthen with small crews, and they sure know how a Pilothouse should be. Boatdesign evolves every day ,see some newer designs as in http://chriswhitedesignd.com/atlantic42/index.php and http://www.gunboat.info/home.html for Multis . For Monohulls the latest Norhaven project : a MS with afth-Pilothouse with afth and center cockpit , from the reputed Norhaven Range sure are worth looking at so you could have a look at some pics and files I posted in Mars in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MSTrawler/ a Group with 10 members today :-) cause the interested guy bought himself a fine second-hand steel centerboarder for a price he could not refuse :-) You will find pics and plans from La Bete : I sailed BeteBelge.jpg personaly , trips from St Malo to St Tropez and to CasaBlanca Moroco where done in comfort and with speed . Also to be found plans and pics from smaller boats see the Jay Benford designs and some other ones also in the MSTrawler Repository. The older I become , the more I love that type of decklayout cause I ofhten sail with the wife as sole compagnion , so if I build a new boat to realy live on for 8 to 10 months in the year that sure would be my favorite layout today. I realy do not like to go forward around my pilothouse in heavy weather , just have a look how easy it is to go forward and afth in those more modern designs , wich by the way will look good on any hull . For those still in the design and ideabuilding...... have a real closer look :-) Old Ben| 8686|22|2005-08-31 20:49:16|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /CAPOTE~1 (2).JPG Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : watertight hatch You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/CAPOTE%7E1%20%282%29.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8687|8672|2005-08-31 21:01:31|Puck III|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Hi Ted ,the 3 last pics posted will give you in detail how a real watertight doorexit can be build , this comes from racers but I like the multiple purpose system , where the door or hatch can be stowed out of the way completely or left as a raincover. Sory for having failed to upload it in files , so you could see it larger . Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sliding hatches and drop boards are an extremely primitive and > > clumsey arrangement to use and impossible to get truly > > watertight.They are the most piss poor arrangement possible, kept > > alive only by blind adherence to tradition.Rsecue boats and most > > commercial boats gave them up decades ago. > > Brent, > > When you say truly water tight, do you mean if the boat rolled over > the sea wouldn't come in? The sliding hatches on all the boats I have > sailed on keep the rain and waves out OK. Rescue boats and commercial > boats have full height deck houses and no sails to trim so sliding > hatches would not make sense. Although I have welded the slides on > for a sliding hatch I am still of an open mind, but your comment "kept > alive only by blind adherence to tradition" is not intellectually > compelling enough for me. > Regards > Ted | 8688|8667|2005-08-31 21:47:20|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Welder to e drive question|http://www.zena.net/htdocs/Map.shtml#Top This may stir up some thoughts for those that want a welder and have other power needs. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > It takes power to turn thee welder. With every change there is a power > loss. A generatr may be 60% efficient which goes to a battery which is > around 20% efficient which goes to an electric motor which is 40% > effficient , etc etc. The less between your original source of power > and the prop , the better.Bolt the prop to whatever would make your > welder go round. > Brent | 8689|8672|2005-09-01 03:40:46|edward_stoneuk|Re: pilothouse hatch???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Ted ,the 3 last pics posted will give you in detail > how a real watertight doorexit can be build , this > comes from racers but I like the multiple purpose > system , where the door or hatch can be stowed > out of the way completely or left as a raincover. > Sory for having failed to upload it in files , > so you could see it larger . > Old Ben Ben, I went to the Capote file but there was no picture just the little rectangle with a red diagonal cross in the top left corner of the page. Is it the same pictures you posted before with a hinged sliding hatch? Regards, Ted| 8690|8672|2005-09-01 05:29:29|Puck III|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Ted , you will find the pics way down in Photos here , I was unable to upload them larger in Files , if you download them you will see them larger . I posted them earlyer but removed them to make space . hoping this helps , personaly I like that construction a lot , cause one realy never know where to stow take out hatches . I did not design these and I cant remember who did on what boat , but as usual I make a screendump wich can come in handy. My mothertongue is flemish so its a lot easyer for me to post selfexplaining pics :-) Keep us posted about your building , I sure hope we meet soon for a beer on each others boats :-) Where ?? Mountains and castels can't move , boats do and I am familiar with your South-Coast . Keep up the good work and post us some Pics :-) Regards Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > Hi Ted ,the 3 last pics posted will give you in detail > > how a real watertight doorexit can be build , this > > comes from racers but I like the multiple purpose > > system , where the door or hatch can be stowed > > out of the way completely or left as a raincover. > > Sory for having failed to upload it in files , > > so you could see it larger . > > Old Ben > > > Ben, > > I went to the Capote file but there was no picture just the little > rectangle with a red diagonal cross in the top left corner of the page. > Is it the same pictures you posted before with a hinged sliding hatch? > > Regards, > Ted | 8691|8672|2005-09-01 07:08:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Ben, That is a neat design and worth a thought or two. It would be great to meet in our boats for a beer or two, but it will be a year or two yet. Regards, Ted| 8692|8672|2005-09-01 10:07:12|Sugar|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Hi Ben, I really enjoyed viewing all your pics on your yahoo profile link. THANK YOU! Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Rowland, > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my pilothouse, > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > in front of the mast when docking :-) > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > drying out on a beach . > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > Feel free to ask more info. > Regards > Old Ben. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > Hi. > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a hatch in > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for checking on the > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I know of one > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for ventilation when > the > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8693|8672|2005-09-01 15:09:45|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Just build your own in place. I can do that in a couple of weeks when I get down there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Thanks for the replies. > My main goal was to use the hatch to ventilate the galley. I figured > if it was useful for trimming sails I'd consider purchasing a hatch or > construct one out of plexi or lexan. If it was for ventilation only > I'd make it out of some spare marine aluminum that I have lying around. > > Rowland > > ps Brent have you made an airhead yet? Bev and I went to look > at "Evan's" boat and ran into Scott. He took us aboard his boat and > gave us a tour and answered "ALOT" of questions. I can only hope our > boat turns out 1/2 as nice as his. | 8694|8672|2005-09-01 15:11:50|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Having a pilothouse and inside steering drastically reduces the possibility of a man overboard in rough weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Brent, > that was my thinking in trying to stay with a low house. > The idea being that in bad weather on a sea voyage, I could see enough > to get by and wouldn't have to risk my life running outside to check > instruments and take a look around. Bad weather is rarely accompanied > by flat calm seas :) hehehe so I figured if I could just barely > eyeball around the sprit in the calm, that would give me more than > enough in a seaway. Besides, I can see no good way to keep what i > consider a nice 'look' to cabin top and sheer with a taller house :) > heheh. > > Like most others, for close manuevering, moderate to great sailing > etc. I have gone for the visually unimpeded outside station, partially > protected at the front of the cockpit where I can work the sails, and > pretty much the whole ship, besides, as a singlehander (well mostly) I > need to be able to quickly get to any part of the ship in a hurry, > something impossible from inside a house in any event. > > Seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > The more you raise the pilothouse the less you are able to use the > > space under the side decks for counterspace. > > Once the pilothouse is high enough to enable you to see over the > > bow , there is absolutely no advantage in going higher. > > In any swell , you see the whole horizon when on the face of every > > wave. Underway, simply occasionally joging the helm from side to > > side ,gives you a good scan of the horizon. > > No one ever docks from inside the pilothouse unless there is no > > other option . It is mainly used for longer trips. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > Ben, > > > > > > I agree, very difficult to hit the right balance of house height and > > > sightlines over and around the bow, and the end result will be a bit > > > higher than pictured, how much, still to be determined. There are > > > several considerations that I'm just going to have to mock up > > before I > > > settle on a final. :) > > > > > > As an initial design consideration, this boat will have a lot of > > > electronics on board, including what amounts to a forward looking > > > sonar with proximity alarm. The inside station is not intended to > > be > > > used for close manuevering, at least not when the hatch is > > closed :) > > > With it open and the adjustable height captain's chair, I can get > > high > > > enough to stick my head clear out, even sub the hatch for a 'bubble' > > > if I wish. Further, since the inside steering station is at the > > very > > > front of the house, and to the starboard side, I won't be looking > > > straight over the sprit, but actually to the starboard side of it. > > > Even more so when the boat is rail down when sailing. So that > > > mitigates the height requirement, Still, it goes without saying that > > > eye level will have to be above the bow, just need to figure out how > > > much. :) > > > > > > Of course in good weather, the hatch will be open and the seat > > pumped > > > up and I'll be above cabin top level, should I have some good reason > > > to be on the inside station under those conditions anyway :) > > > > > > Most of steering will most likely be from the partially enclosed > > > station at the forward end of the cockpit. From there I'll be able > > to > > > see everything all the time, adjust the sheets and attend to pretty > > > much all ship functions. > > > > > > Now, I have finally figured out how I want to do my bowsprit. Since > > > for the canals I want to have some kind of 'bumper' I finally > > decided > > > on a stainless shaft secured to a welded plate on the foredeck and > > > tied in structurally to various points, as the rollers for the bow > > > anchors will also be affixed to the side of this shaft. The sprit > > > 'extension' will hinge onto the front of this and can either be > > swung > > > up or to the side, to temporarily shorten the ship hehehe, or > > removed > > > entirely when the masts come down for the canals, and suitable > > > tire-tread covered 'bumper' extension affixxed in its place > > for 'love > > > tapping' barges and lock gates and walls :) The ground tackle is not > > > affected by that change. > > > > > > I agree the wishbone would add some power but at added weight and > > > complexity with my sail handling arrangment. If you look at those > > > pictures of the sprit booms on the racing cat using the 'softwing' > > > sail setup, you'll see they are loosefooted thus allowing good sail > > > shape clear to the foot. The gaffs themselves are fitted into sail > > > tubes sewn into the tops of the sails. These tubes are essentially > > the > > > top of the sail rolled over and around the gaff to form a pocket. > > This > > > area is lined with heavy fabric designed to minimize abrasion, and > > > strengthen the top of the sail. Since the contact area with the gaff > > > is huge, wear/stress should not be a problem, especially compared to > > > the more normal affixing at 'points' technique which concentrates > > the > > > stress on those points on the sail. The same applies to the sail > > where > > > it affixes to the mast, plus i avoid hoops, slides, grommets, the > > > whole nine yards. The sails themselves are to be cut down from used > > > larger racing sails, i.e. take the triangle and chop off the top, > > and > > > voila, you have a 4 sided trapezoidal which is the shape of > > my 'wings'. > > > when you figure the design considerations for making a marconi > > racing > > > sale strong enough to take those loads, then translate that into the > > > much easier life of a smaller gaff sail, these things should live > > for > > > as long as I can protect them from the UV, thus my previous thread > > on > > > painting/coloring the sails :) Still toying with the idea of black > > > sails LOL. would be hell at night but a good masthead light handles > > > that, and it sure would cut the glare on deck LOL. > > > > > > Anyway, I think I get the benefit of the wishbone gaff/boom and > > avoid > > > the weight etc. by using the loosefooted aluminum strut boom and > > > 'tube' gaffs as I've described. > > > > > > As for power, present rig sketches indicate something just short of > > > 1200 sq.ft. on a 40 ft. waterline with a displacement around 29- 30k, > > > all that on the four lowers. Add in the fisherman between the masts, > > > or inextreme situations, a Gollywobbler and, well, lots of string to > > > play with should someone want to go out and play 'cruiser racer' :) > > > > > > I suppose I could even take the spare mainsail, throw it on the > > > foremast, lose the boom and treat it like a giant loosefooted > > staysail > > > :) Given enough deckhands, I'm sure I could figure out something to > > > keep everyone busy LOL. > > > > > > Ok so now I've told you more than you ever wanted to know :) There > > is > > > a not quite to scale mock up of the interior in my files folder, > > under > > > Interior 3 I think. The one matched up to present scale is not > > quite > > > finished yet so I havn't uploaded that, but the basic setup is the > > > same. As you can see I'm pushing interior capacity to the max, but > > at > > > a hair over 43 on deck, this is a pretty good sized boat, and I'm > > > finding that with careful attention to dimensions that I actually > > need > > > (I'm just under 6'4), that the raised extended cabin with > > associated > > > raised cabin sole, gives me a lot to play with. You'll notice that > > as > > > far as the eye is concerned, almost the entire interior is open to > > the > > > eye from pretty much anywhere except the aft cabin which is mostly > > > under the cockpit, and with the cabin door open, even that is > > visible. > > > However, the floor space is pretty much fully utilized by multilevel > > > seating, and extensive use of small spaces/nooks and crannies for > > > logical storage. This is not a simple interior, either to design or > > > construct, but considering I'm going to live on this boat for > > several > > > years at least, it offers a huge amount of flexibility, especially > > for > > > dealing with intermittent guests in which case at night I can divide > > > up into essentially 3 private cabin areas, each with private access > > to > > > a head/shower. On the other hand, if I have my way, you can bet that > > > THAT isn't going to be happening with much frequency LOL> :) > > > > > > Oh, Ben , you forgot the biggest advantage of the extended cabin top > > > :) heheheh Gives me plenty of room to stow my flying dinghy I've > > > designed :) LOL. > > > (for those who think I'm kidding, take a look here:) > > > > > > http://www.flyingboatadventures.com/gallery.htm > > > > > > Only difference is that my FIB design is stronger, lighter, and > > folds > > > up to the size of a thick surfboard:)and will stow strapped down on > > > the cabin top. It can be unleashed and ready for 'dinghy duty' in > > > about 3 minutes:) oh and costs one helluvalot less :) heheh > > > > > > Seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > wrote: > > > > Hi Seer , I had a look at the nice file you posted , > > > > any chance we see it combined with an interior arrangement sketch? > > > > I must confess to be a bit sceptical about forward vision > > > > with such a low house , did you stop reading at the 2 > > > > mayor factors important to design a happy wheelhouse ?? > > > > a retractable bowsprit would be fine on your design , > > > > a gaffwishboom would also give a bit more power when > > > > needed , that way you would have all possible area well filled :-) > > > > > > > > just a tought , hehehe > > > > > > > > Old Ben > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > > Ben, > > > > > > > > > ote: > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Rowland, > > > > > > your idea is great , I use two hatches on top of my > > pilothouse, > > > > > > one opening facing afth and one opening facing foreward, > > > > > > this permits me not only to ventilate well , but also > > > > > > to put my head above the roof when standing at my interior > > > > > > steering weel ( easy to talk with the crew when they are > > > > > > in front of the mast when docking :-) > > > > > > All this in a 29ft twin-keeler ,3'draft + easy > > > > > > drying out on a beach . > > > > > > I will post 2 pics so you see the hatches , > > > > > > more pics via the Links or " Liens " in my Yahoo profile > > > > > > direct link : http://tinyurl.com/3opkk > > > > > > in the Seabull repository via my Yahoo profile Links > > > > > > you will find more than 100 pics how to design and > > > > > > build a decent Pilothouse , keeping in mind 2 important > > > > > I have 3 hatches designed into the house roof, course my PH is > > > > quite a > > > > > bit longer than most. There are two forward, one over the > > steering > > > > > station for the same reasons as ben has posted, another just > > over > > > > to > > > > > port from there over the forward dinette/settee, and one aft > > and to > > > > > port over the galley for those times when you have to cook > > inside > > > > but > > > > > its too darn hot :)..The aft one is also just forward of the > > > > forward > > > > > cockpit steering station which is to port, so makes for handy > > > > > communication from the semi sheltered steering station to > > whomever > > > > is > > > > > the unlucky soul manning the galley :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > > > You might consider mounting the hinge points such that the > > hatch > > > > can > > > > > be rotated to opened in more than one direction. Very handy > > when at > > > > > anchor. > > > > > > > > Goiot used to make a standard hatch like you discribe, > > > > I used it on many boats with total satisfaction , but it > > > > was a bit expensive so I wonder if it is still in production?? > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > factors : first you must see well in front of the bow :-) > > > > > > second : the volume will increase righting arm and > > > > > > ease fast recovery in case of a knock-down . > > > > > > Feel free to ask more info. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Old Ben. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi. > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone has or was considering putting a > > > > hatch in > > > > > > > their pilothouse? I think it might come in handy for > > checking > > > > on the > > > > > > > trim of the sails and for ventilation above the stove. I > > know > > > > of one > > > > > > > owner who suggested it. I was thinking mostly for > > ventilation > > > > when > > > > > > the > > > > > > > pilothose door is closed?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Rowland | 8695|8672|2005-09-01 15:15:56|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|With good side and rear windows, you can see the entire horizon without changing course, except for an area just ahead of the bow, which you can scan every two minutes, if you want, my joging the bow a few degrees each time. In your crowded waters some kind of rear view mirror would be a good idea. A mirror for other blind spots would also be a good idea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Underway, simply occasionally joging the helm from side to > > side ,gives you a good scan of the horizon. > > Brent, > > One can expect some commercial boats to be travelling at 30 knots. > From appearing on the horizon to running one down could take 10 > minutes. It is not unkown for the boat to be on autopilot and the > officer of the watch to be asleep. One such incident caused a cargo > vessel to hit the Nab Tower off the Isle of Wight some 20 miles or > so from Southampton where the officer of the watch had been loading > the vessel all day. In another similar incident a German Cargo > vessel hit Cornwall when the Officer of the watch tripped and > knocked himself unconcious. In 2002 the car carrier Tricolour was > wrecked after a collision with a container ship and sank laying on > its side still partially visible 20 miles off the French channel > cost. In the 2 years it took to clear the wreck, and despite it > being signed and a well known danger, with salvage and coastguard > vessels in attendance two other vessels hit it. I would not regard > reliance on the overtaking rule of the ColRegs as a good idea. > Jogging the helm from side to side, unless the boat does a 360° loop > does not give a scan of the horizon. A pilot house with no rear view > is less than ideal for busy commercial waters. > > Regards, > Ted | 8696|8672|2005-09-01 15:24:15|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|A door can be as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker and would not allow a drop of water in if the boat rolled 360 degrees or got stuck on a lee shore beach in big swells. A sistership to Moitessier's Joshua called Pygmalion blew ashore on the coast of Spain and was in the surf for over a week with up to 80 knot onshore winds . When they opened her up after the weather settled the bilge was dry and dusty. This is impossible with a sliding hatch and dropboards. With a 25 degree slope to the back of the pilothouse , you don't need as high a door to make it easy to get in ,as your feet go foreward down the companionway ladder before you get to the top front of the opening. If the slope puts the top front of the opening where it would normally be with a vertical back and a sliding hatch it is just as easy to get into as a sliding hatch would be, but much simpler and far more watertight. You don't have to dissasemble and reassemble a contraption every time you go in or out in rough weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Sliding hatches and drop boards are an extremely primitive and > > clumsey arrangement to use and impossible to get truly > > watertight.They are the most piss poor arrangement possible, kept > > alive only by blind adherence to tradition.Rsecue boats and most > > commercial boats gave them up decades ago. > > Brent, > > When you say truly water tight, do you mean if the boat rolled over > the sea wouldn't come in? The sliding hatches on all the boats I have > sailed on keep the rain and waves out OK. Rescue boats and commercial > boats have full height deck houses and no sails to trim so sliding > hatches would not make sense. Although I have welded the slides on > for a sliding hatch I am still of an open mind, but your comment "kept > alive only by blind adherence to tradition" is not intellectually > compelling enough for me. > Regards > Ted | 8697|8672|2005-09-02 11:35:26|seeratlas|Re: pilothouse hatch???|You know, guys, (and girls :) Since this is a builder/designer/'idea' (and construction :)type of forum, a lot of what we discuss is necessarily armchair, planning for exigencies, and events we hope to avoid entirely, but know are possible. I have been in the deep blue when this stuff we try to avoid showed up, and I can assure you from personal experience, if there is any way you can avoid the sliding/dropboard type of hatch I would strongly advise you do so. Cold/wet shivering hands and fingers, a violently moving platform, and the periodic deposit of several tons of water into the cockpit makes screwing around with drop boards and sliding hatches (which seem to make excellent 'funnels' for directing the water into the cabin) really no fun at all. Personally, for me, its been a 'one and done' experience. Never again. Visualize trying to open up, sprint out onto the deck to belay an errant sheet or fouled line, then sprint back, dive inside and secure the hatch and boards, all between the impacts of a wave set, and the matter is rendered clear. Gotta be a better way. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A door can be as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker and > would not allow a drop of water in if the boat rolled 360 degrees or > got stuck on a lee shore beach in big swells. A sistership to > Moitessier's Joshua called Pygmalion blew ashore on the coast of > Spain and was in the surf for over a week with up to 80 knot onshore > winds . When they opened her up after the weather settled the bilge > was dry and dusty. This is impossible with a sliding hatch and > dropboards. > With a 25 degree slope to the back of the pilothouse , you don't > need as high a door to make it easy to get in ,as your feet go > foreward down the companionway ladder before you get to the top front > of the opening. If the slope puts the top front of the opening where > it would normally be with a vertical back and a sliding hatch it is > just as easy to get into as a sliding hatch would be, but much > simpler and far more watertight. You don't have to dissasemble and > reassemble a contraption every time you go in or out in rough weather. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Sliding hatches and drop boards are an extremely primitive and > > > clumsey arrangement to use and impossible to get truly > > > watertight.They are the most piss poor arrangement possible, kept > > > alive only by blind adherence to tradition.Rsecue boats and most > > > commercial boats gave them up decades ago. > > > > Brent, > > > > When you say truly water tight, do you mean if the boat rolled over > > the sea wouldn't come in? The sliding hatches on all the boats I > have > > sailed on keep the rain and waves out OK. Rescue boats and > commercial > > boats have full height deck houses and no sails to trim so sliding > > hatches would not make sense. Although I have welded the slides on > > for a sliding hatch I am still of an open mind, but your > comment "kept > > alive only by blind adherence to tradition" is not intellectually > > compelling enough for me. > > Regards > > Ted | 8698|8672|2005-09-02 12:33:44|kingsknight4life|Re: pilothouse hatch???|Brent I'm assuming you mean the hatch nt the airhead. Have you built one yet? I figured I could easiy make the hatch out of aluminum like the forward one. Rowland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Just build your own in place. I can do that in a couple of weeks when > I get down there. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > > > ... > > ps Brent have you made an airhead yet? Bev and I went to look > > at "Evan's" boat and ran into Scott. He took us aboard his boat and > > gave us a tour and answered "ALOT" of questions. I can only hope > our > > boat turns out 1/2 as nice as his. | 8699|8672|2005-09-02 14:39:11|brentswain38|Re: pilothouse hatch???|I meant the pilothouse hatch. I built the airhead. It's working so far. I found simpler ways to build it, using a cap you drop in when you are not dumping, which you lift out prior to dumping. It greatly simplified the beast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Brent > I'm assuming you mean the hatch nt the airhead. Have you built one > yet? I figured I could easiy make the hatch out of aluminum like the > forward one. > Rowland > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Just build your own in place. I can do that in a couple of weeks > when > > I get down there. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > ps Brent have you made an airhead yet? Bev and I went to look > > > at "Evan's" boat and ran into Scott. He took us aboard his boat > and > > > gave us a tour and answered "ALOT" of questions. I can only hope > > our > > > boat turns out 1/2 as nice as his. | 8700|8700|2005-09-02 20:16:58|Bill Jaine|A gentle reminder|Whilst using my 13 amp heavy duty grinder today to cut thru a steel post, it kicked back and caught my not tucked in shirt and put a nice graze up my generously endowed belly. Tuck your shirt in guys, it stings!! Bill Port Hope. Canada -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/88 - Release Date: 01/09/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8701|8701|2005-09-02 22:01:06|Frank McNeill|Hello from a newbie,|I don't plan to build a steel sailboat, but thought I might find information on origamiboats that could be used to develop notions for prefabricated steel houses that would provide more protection than conventional manufactured homes do during hurricanes and tornadoes. This notion isn't too far-fetched, because there are places in the world where people turn old fishing boats upside down and fix them up inside as houses. I'm on a couple of bamboo oriented discussion groups and am one of several non Indian members of an organization to promote the development of rural India, where ten-percent of the world`s population gets by on an average annual income that is equivalent to about 200 US dollars per capita. India has almost as much bamboo as China, but does less to add value to it with exportable products like bamboo fabrics, flooring and furniture. Some bamboo artisans could convert small amounts of bamboo into increased income by using strips of bamboo as "planks" for the hulls decks and deck structures for semi-scale models of wooden ships, but would need help with designs for models, fixtures and tools, and marketing in countries where people can afford toys that cost several hundred dollars. I'm not trying to sell anything and won't be involved in any venture that results from my efforts and would be delighted to hear from anybody who might like to get into the semi-scale model ship business. I grew up during the great depression and remember a heavy boat my father and some of his friends made by cutting the ends out of steel barrels and welding flattened pieces of steel together. I remember that they hauled this thing to lakes on a flatbed truck and that it took four guys to get it off the truck and into the water. Best wishes, Frank McNeill| 8702|8700|2005-09-03 04:41:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: A gentle reminder|Bill, A similar thing happened to me years ago cleaning burnt paint off a motorcycle tank using a cup wire brush in a 9" grinder. It caught in my loose shirt and all but tore it off my back leaving me with swirl grazes on my stomach. Last tuesday I was in the A&E having a bit of steel removed from my iris. So not only tuck loose clothing in but wear safety glasses or goggles when grinding as well. Regards, Ted| 8703|8700|2005-09-03 07:00:41|Frank McNeill|Re: A gentle reminder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Bill, > > A similar thing happened to me years ago cleaning burnt paint off a > motorcycle tank using a cup wire brush in a 9" grinder. It caught in > my loose shirt and all but tore it off my back leaving me with swirl > grazes on my stomach. Last tuesday I was in the A&E having a bit of > steel removed from my iris. So not only tuck loose clothing in but > wear safety glasses or goggles when grinding as well. > > Regards, > Ted Bill, Ted et al. (legal talk, nothing to do with cannibalism) A long time back when salaried guys wore white shirts and ties to let everybody know they weren't union guys who earned twice as much, I was doing mechanical development stuff in a place where one of the senior engineers was always bugging me to tuck my necktie in when I used the lathe. I think the devil made me do it, but one day I threw the main switch, wrapped the end of my tie around something I was turning on the lathe and bent over the lathe with my head turned sideways. The engineer came in after a few minutes, but instead of trying to help me, he started jumping up and down and screaming. I detached the necktie, a clip-on type, and went over to let the guy know I was okay— but instead of being reassured, he ran out of the shop and never spoke to me again. The moral of this account is that you should always make sure that any mishap with a machine tool is for real— not an amateurish simulation. Best wishes, Frank| 8704|8704|2005-09-03 14:10:05|prairiemaidca|Angle grinder mayhem|Hi All: I too have had a couple of encounters of the not so nice with my 9"grinder.. Once with a wire brush my loose sweat shirt got caught and it wound the cloth so tight to my chest I walked into the house with the grinder still attached and had to cut a hole in the shirt to release the beast. Lucky for me not a scratch that time. I was not so lucky another day when I had only been working for a couple of minutes at the start of a day when I managed to grind a very large slot just above my knee that required a couple of stitches.. I was very lucky to have come out with so little damage.. The bottom line is SAFETY first. Respect your tools, don't get to tired and complacent and above all wear the safety gear.. Happy building ,, Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 8705|8704|2005-09-03 14:41:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Angle grinder mayhem|I see a joke here somewhere about men not reading directions on use of tools but as long as you can laugh latter it is a guy thing. Jon| 8706|8704|2005-09-03 14:52:04|Frank McNeill|Re: Angle grinder mayhem|--- "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > I see a joke here somewhere about men not reading > directions on use of > tools but as long as you can laugh latter it is a > guy thing. > > Jon > A true macho man does not read directions, or ask for them either, because that would indicate that he either does not know what he is doing, or where he is going. Best wishes, Frank __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 8707|8707|2005-09-03 17:22:04|brentswain38|Guzzler pumps|I had a diaphragm failure on my Guzzler pump while crossing the equator. When I took it apart I found that the manufacturers had gone to great lengths to prevent me from using jury rigged parts , to force me to buy their parts. Not an option in mid Pacific. When I originally bought the pump, they had left out every second bolt, which ,thankfully I discovered before leving the store,and the dealer gave me enough to replace them.They were tiny and a real pain in the ass to deal with at sea in tight quarters. I would reccommend avoiding guzzler pumps at all costs. Build your own pumps and keep things simple. Brent| 8708|8704|2005-09-03 17:22:21|Alex Christie|Re: Angle grinder mayhem|Heh, Time for my safety goof-ups to be aired, now that this angle grinder mayhem thread is going! In many cases it is the wire wheel which is the deadliest, it seems, because it likes to grab and snarl up whatever its got a hold on. My encounter with the 5" Makita grinder with wire brush on it was a close call; the spinning wire wheel grabbed the power cord and wound the whole works up tight. I was very glad it was not a piece of clothing that time, and have been very ginger in my handling of the wire wheel ever since. Those wire wheels just love to grab anything they can get their nasty little wires into and wind the works up with incredible torque that electrics offer. Earlier I nicked my finger with the same 5" machine with the thinned edge of the grinding disc. One touch and you can open yourself up pretty fast with those, and I make a note on my film about how both Brent and I use the machines without their guards but to do so at your own risk. Wound's all healed now, but it still itches with some of the dark metalic dust in there - a permanent tattoo to remind me to be more careful. A lesson learned -- that was the first time I grabbed that machine and used it without wearing thick gloves. Alex On 3-Sep-05, at 11:09 AM, prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All:  I too have had a couple of encounters of the not so nice with > my 9"grinder..  Once with a wire brush my loose sweat shirt got caught > and it wound the cloth so tight to my chest I walked into the house > with the grinder still attached and had to cut a hole in the shirt to > release the beast.  Lucky for me not a scratch that time.  I was not > so > lucky another day when I had only been working for a couple of minutes > at the start of a day when I managed to grind a very large slot just > above my knee that required a couple of stitches.. I was very lucky to > have come out with so little damage.. The bottom line is SAFETY > first.  > Respect your tools, don't get to tired and complacent and above all > wear the safety gear.. Happy building ,,  Martin Forster (Prairie > Maid) > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island sea kayak > Vancouver island accommodation > Vancouver island real estate > Yacht > Vancouver island lodging > Vancouver island hotel > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. >   > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8709|8704|2005-09-03 17:28:21|brentswain38|Re: Angle grinder mayhem|Cutting wheels and discs sometimes explode, throwing shrapnell out in predictable directions.. Its a good idea to avoid being in line with the wheel or disc as much as possible, and make a habit of it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > I see a joke here somewhere about men not reading directions on use of > tools but as long as you can laugh latter it is a guy thing. > > Jon | 8710|8707|2005-09-03 17:55:11|Courtney Thomas|Re: Guzzler pumps|Is Guzzler a brand or type....pump ? Thank you, Courtney On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 16:21, brentswain38 wrote: > I had a diaphragm failure on my Guzzler pump while crossing the > equator. When I took it apart I found that the manufacturers had gone > to great lengths to prevent me from using jury rigged parts , to force > me to buy their parts. Not an option in mid Pacific. When I originally > bought the pump, they had left out every second bolt, which ,thankfully > I discovered before leving the store,and the dealer gave me enough to > replace them.They were tiny and a real pain in the ass to deal with at > sea in tight quarters. I would reccommend avoiding guzzler pumps at all > costs. Build your own pumps and keep things simple. > Brent > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8711|8700|2005-09-03 22:00:20|audeojude|Re: A gentle reminder|Even the baby tools like a roto zip can bite.. two weeks ago I was using a cutoff disk in one sitting in the cockpit. made my cut carefully.. succeded in making my cut carefully and then went to set rotozip down not so carefully and let the cuttoff blade touch my shin just under my knee... almost to the bone groove in my leg........ I'm now more carefull not only cutting but also holding or setting down tool with still spinning down blade in it. only good thing was that it never did hurt so was able to keep working.... had to wash blood out of cockpit of boat though.. that was anoying scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > Whilst using my 13 amp heavy duty grinder today to cut thru a steel post, it > kicked back and caught my not tucked in shirt and put a nice graze up my > generously endowed belly. > > > > Tuck your shirt in guys, it stings!! > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/88 - Release Date: 01/09/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8712|8700|2005-09-04 02:34:45|Frank McNeill|Re: A gentle reminder|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > Even the baby tools like a roto zip can bite.. two weeks ago I was > using a cutoff disk in one sitting in the cockpit. made my cut > carefully.. succeded in making my cut carefully and then went to set > rotozip down not so carefully and let the cuttoff blade touch my shin > just under my knee... almost to the bone groove in my leg........ I'm > now more carefull not only cutting but also holding or setting down > tool with still spinning down blade in it. only good thing was that it > never did hurt so was able to keep working.... had to wash blood out > of cockpit of boat though.. that was anoying > > scott > To avoid the dangers associated with cutting or grinding metal, consider paper boats at: http://tinyurl.com/9nhor. There would still be the hazards of paper cuts and working with scissors, so go to: http://tinyurl.com/1nnz for another alternative. Best wishes, Frank| 8713|8713|2005-09-04 12:29:49|Lipsey|Re: More Angle grinder mayhem|I too have had my accidents with grinders through the years, none serious, but all scary and eye opening. A very good friend was using a 4" grinder with a disc, but without the gaurd. He was rebuilding an old school house, making it his home. He was using the edge of the grider to cut nails away when the disc jammed and shattered, causing the grider to whip around slamming his hand into the wall. He was wearing thick leather gloves, and at first thought banging his hand was the only cost. As he took his left glove off he found his little finger was severed above the second knuckle, attached by a thin piece of skin. Because it was crushed apart by a flying piece of disc, instead of cut with a blade, the Drs could not re-attach it and so he is now missing that finger. A few days latter he found another piece of disc imbedded in a wall 25' away. It all happens in a micro-second, too fast to stop or react to, except well after the fact. Take care, David Lipsey. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8714|8700|2005-09-04 13:09:45|seeratlas|Re: A gentle reminder|some people just can't take a joke. long long ago when i was a kind of law enforcement officer, one of the guys had a fake bomb made up. 4 sticks of tnt with a digital timer on it, looked exactly real, trust me. I know cause I left a party and got into my car, put my foot on the brake and felt something strange, looked down and saw the digital clock counting down..bout the time I hit the pavement, and rolled to the curb, I heard the now assembled throng laughing their azzes off. I admit it wasn't entirely funny at the moment, but I felt a lot better when I later got the chance to do 'unto another" to a visiting special forces captain :) I heard he later got his colonel :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Bill, > > > > A similar thing happened to me years ago cleaning burnt paint off a > > motorcycle tank using a cup wire brush in a 9" grinder. It caught in > > my loose shirt and all but tore it off my back leaving me with swirl > > grazes on my stomach. Last tuesday I was in the A&E having a bit of > > steel removed from my iris. So not only tuck loose clothing in but > > wear safety glasses or goggles when grinding as well. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > Bill, Ted et al. (legal talk, nothing to do with cannibalism) > > A long time back when salaried guys wore white shirts and ties to let > everybody know they weren't union guys who earned twice as much, I was > doing mechanical development stuff in a place where one of the senior > engineers was always bugging me to tuck my necktie in when I used the > lathe. > I think the devil made me do it, but one day I threw the main switch, wrapped > the end of my tie around something I was turning on the lathe and bent over > the lathe with my head turned sideways. > The engineer came in after a few minutes, but instead of trying to help me, he > started jumping up and down and screaming. > I detached the necktie, a clip-on type, and went over to let the guy know I > was okay— but instead of being reassured, he ran out of the shop and never > spoke to me again. > The moral of this account is that you should always make sure that any > mishap with a machine tool is for real— not an amateurish simulation. > > Best wishes, > Frank | 8715|8707|2005-09-04 13:15:07|seeratlas|Re: Guzzler pumps|I seem to remember something about someone losing his boat because of a guzzler. If I remember correctly he filed a lawsuit against the company claiming that the pumps were intentionally designed to fail at given intervals, and that in so doing, necessitate proprietary parts at excessive prices. His claim that the intentional design to fail, directly resulted in the loss of his boat, that such was unconscionable on a 'safety' item and might have cost him his life. The case was very quietly settled and the action dismissed. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any design changes having been made subsequently. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I had a diaphragm failure on my Guzzler pump while crossing the > equator. When I took it apart I found that the manufacturers had gone > to great lengths to prevent me from using jury rigged parts , to force > me to buy their parts. Not an option in mid Pacific. When I originally > bought the pump, they had left out every second bolt, which ,thankfully > I discovered before leving the store,and the dealer gave me enough to > replace them.They were tiny and a real pain in the ass to deal with at > sea in tight quarters. I would reccommend avoiding guzzler pumps at all > costs. Build your own pumps and keep things simple. > Brent | 8716|8704|2005-09-04 13:17:13|seeratlas|Re: Angle grinder mayhem|Amen, there is a previous thread where some of the more horrific accidents were described. you cannot be too careful about this stuff. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Cutting wheels and discs sometimes explode, throwing shrapnell out in > predictable directions.. Its a good idea to avoid being in line with > the wheel or disc as much as possible, and make a habit of it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > I see a joke here somewhere about men not reading directions on use > of > > tools but as long as you can laugh latter it is a guy thing. > > > > Jon | 8717|8717|2005-09-04 17:04:12|jericoera|Good painting system for steel|I am not certain what everyone else is doing but I saw a paint job on a metal boat that is just approaching its sixth year and it is in A1 shape. I asked the guy what he did and he told me he sandblasted the boat to the metal in small areas. Within 15 minutes of getting it down to bare metal, he applied organic zinc epoxy primer. He told me that if you tried to sandblast the whole boat even indoors or under cover, the ambient moisture in the air would already be causing minute oxidization that would later show up as rust streaks in the paint. He only blasted what he could immediately cover. No fancy acid treatments or other long exotic protocols. Carl McIntosh| 8718|8672|2005-09-04 17:08:37|Gary|To: Brent....Re: pilothouse hatch??? / airhead|Brent ..... just letting you know that leaving the anchorage right beside you in Comox had nothing to do with your "testing" of your "airhead" toilet. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I meant the pilothouse hatch. I built the airhead. It's working so > far. I found simpler ways to build it, using a cap you drop in when > you are not dumping, which you lift out prior to dumping. It greatly > simplified the beast. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > wrote: > > Brent > > I'm assuming you mean the hatch nt the airhead. Have you built one > > yet? I figured I could easiy make the hatch out of aluminum like > the > > forward one. > > Rowland > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Just build your own in place. I can do that in a couple of weeks > > when > > > I get down there. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > ... > > > > ps Brent have you made an airhead yet? Bev and I went to look > > > > at "Evan's" boat and ran into Scott. He took us aboard his boat > > and > > > > gave us a tour and answered "ALOT" of questions. I can only > hope > > > our > > > > boat turns out 1/2 as nice as his. | 8719|8672|2005-09-04 19:09:36|seeratlas|To: Brent....Re: pilothouse hatch??? / airhead|rflmao seer :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > Brent ..... just letting you know that leaving the anchorage right > beside you in Comox had nothing to do with your "testing" of > your "airhead" toilet. > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I meant the pilothouse hatch. I built the airhead. It's working so > > far. I found simpler ways to build it, using a cap you drop in when > > you are not dumping, which you lift out prior to dumping. It > greatly > > simplified the beast. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > wrote: > > > Brent > > > I'm assuming you mean the hatch nt the airhead. Have you built > one > > > yet? I figured I could easiy make the hatch out of aluminum like > > the > > > forward one. > > > Rowland > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > Just build your own in place. I can do that in a couple of > weeks > > > when > > > > I get down there. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > ps Brent have you made an airhead yet? Bev and I went to look > > > > > at "Evan's" boat and ran into Scott. He took us aboard his > boat > > > and > > > > > gave us a tour and answered "ALOT" of questions. I can only > > hope > > > > our > > > > > boat turns out 1/2 as nice as his. | 8720|8720|2005-09-05 03:06:41|edward_stoneuk|Tank sealant.|Hi all, What is the preferred method of sealing the 3mm steel inspection covers of the diesel and also the water tanks? Regards, Ted| 8721|22|2005-09-05 09:45:25|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /culvert house.jpg Uploaded by : frankmcneilll Description : several sketches of culvert-like manufactured homes You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/culvert%20house.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, frankmcneilll | 8722|8722|2005-09-05 09:48:47|Frank McNeill|Origami Houses|This post is for anybody who would like to get into the origami house business. It is a modified version of an e-mail note that I have sent to several companies that are trying to develop heavy lifter airships to fill a niche between airfreight which is faster than lighter than air freight would be but and expensive ocean going freight that is cheaper but much slower The house suggestion is based on a notion that has "simmered on a back burner" from a time when I worked in and around Chicago and commuted past quarries and big gravel pits that made me wonder what they might look like with homes peeking out of holes in their walls and parks, playgrounds, shops, cafes and the like down on their floors. I didn't think much about what the homes would look like until my wife and I moved to Houston in 1997 and realized that we lived in Tornado Alley, because of a little town named Jasper near Austin, Texas that had been erased from the map by a tornado a few months earlier. Two years later, an F-5 tornado plowed through almost 40 miles of communities in the Oklahoma City area, where one family survived by running from their mobile home and scrambling into a metal drainage culvert under the road in front of their home. At about that time, I started thinking about the possibility for tucking mobile homes into culverts, before deciding that it would be more efficient to build mobile homes with cylindrical exteriors similar to those of culverts, after discovering an online paper titled "Closet, car or ditch? The Mobile Home Dilemma During a Tornado" at: http://tinyurl.com/79r8n written by Dr. Thomas Schmidlin, a meteorologist, professor of geography and tornado researcher at Kent State University in Ohio. He and some colleagues traveled to a lot of places that had been visited by tornadoes before reaching the conclusion that a mobile home is the worst place to be in during a tornado. This is what Dr. Schmidlin wrote about the connection between tornadoes and people in mobile homes: "For nearly half of the Americans who die from tornadoes, the last views they have of this world are the disintegrating interiors of their mobile homes. Only one-third of the fifteen-million mobile home residents in the US live in mobile home parks, and some of them do not have sturdy shelters for all residents. The other ten-million live on private rural sites where most people may not have storm shelters that are within running distance when tornado warnings are broadcast." Mobile home residents are also more at risk during hurricanes. According to a HUD report, 97-percent of all the mobile homes in Hurricane Andrew's path in Dade County were destroyed. See a trailer park at: http://tinyurl.com/9cgdo.that shows an example. Mobile home manufacturers claim that their products are safer now— see: myths at: http://tinyurl.com/bvzak. To find out how much safer, see: a trailer park after hurricane Charley in 2004 at: http://tinyurl.com/cgwkq; and what a category one Katrina did in Florida, before it entered the gulf and turned into a monster, at: http://tinyurl.com/8vpfb. People buy mobile homes because they cost half as much per square foot as site built homes. They cost less because they are made in factories that provide economy of scale, use materials that are lighter than those used in site built houses and do not include foundations, yards, gardens or garages. They do include truck frames with axles, wheels, tires and trailer hitches that make it possible to transport them from factories to dealer lots, but also make them more susceptible to damage or destruction by wind . For the anatomy of a mobile home, go to: http://tinyurl.com/buk76. A lot of people have thought about building their own culvert houses and a few have actually done it. Some information can be obtained from a paper at: http://tinyurl.com/cnnox written by Jeanette Raichyk and from people who would like to live in hobbit holes, see: 21st Century Bag End at: http://tinyurl.com/7qdnd and Daisy's hobbit hole at: http://tinyurl.com/7f299. The cylindrical metal exterior shell for a culvert house could be assembled by bolting curved panels together. An integral shell would be stronger and tighter, but couldn't be transported via highways, the way that single wide manufactured homes with maximum widths of 16 feet are transported. A culvert house could be transported by an airship. It would probably be better if only the integral shell and frame was transported by air. Everything else could be hauled in a truck that could carry a crew to moor the airship and install prewired and plumbed wall panels that might be fastened to frame ribs by means of quarter turn fasteners similar to the kind used hold inspection panels in place on airplanes. After the airship had been moored by attaching drop lines to stakes, a culvert house would be lowered in a sling to rest on support cradles. Cables would then be fed from winches and attached to the truck, which would be constructed, or modified, to have a weight roughly equal to the weight of the culvert house shell and frame. The truck's weight would replace the weight of the integral culvert shell and frame for the return flight to the factory. Some ballast adjustment might be needed; so the truck could be equipped with a water tank and pump for this purpose. I have put several sketches of a culvert-like house together for conversion to a jpg that has been added to files. It is way off topic, so I will delete it in a few days. This is what the jpg is supposed to show: top left section view, culvert house in a mobile home park nest top right side view of a culvert house with a balcony first down on left floor plan of a 2 level culvert house first down on right cross section of a 2 level culvert house second down on left front & side elevations of a culvert house supported by cradles that would serve as ballast to keep the house right side up during another flood in New Orleans second down on right a single level berm sheltered house third down on left culvert houses embedded in a coffer dam that could be built on a flood plain. There are a lot of flood plains in the Houston area. Some have been built up by hauling hundreds of truck loads of soil in for leveling and compacting but a lot of them have been bypassed and would still be available for coffer dam communities. third down on right culvert houses in a converted quarry, gravel pit or abandoned surface mine. There are thousands of places like this in the US. Many of them were excavated next to major streets and highways to provide fill or gravel. Somebody could get super rich by developing these places into prime communities for commuters with super-safe common areas for children. Best wishes, Frank| 8723|8717|2005-09-05 10:24:58|john kupris|Re: Good painting system for steel|Hi Carl, thanks for the paint report. Did the guy say why he used organic zinc vs inorganic zinc? Did he mention cleaning the zinc salts off or washing the hull after priming. How many coats of zinc? Sorry for the barrage of questions but I'm interested because I've had a few small problems with organic zinc showing rust blooms. I sand blasted and painted in 32' square feet sections and brushed on the inorganic zinc rich primer within an hour and usually less. The exterior hull was all brush painted and some rust blooms showed after the winter. Someone on this site said that a roller should have been used as a brush will remove or thin out the peaks of the sand blast tooth right at the surface. Since the hull was all done the same way, the brush theory does not seem to hold water as 95% is ok. I think that the problem was recycled cinder blast medium, as the rust blooms were at the stern 25% were I recycled the cinder medium. There were no rust blooms after I used just virgin cinders. John jericoera wrote: I am not certain what everyone else is doing but I saw a paint job on a metal boat that is just approaching its sixth year and it is in A1 shape. I asked the guy what he did and he told me he sandblasted the boat to the metal in small areas. Within 15 minutes of getting it down to bare metal, he applied organic zinc epoxy primer. He told me that if you tried to sandblast the whole boat even indoors or under cover, the ambient moisture in the air would already be causing minute oxidization that would later show up as rust streaks in the paint. He only blasted what he could immediately cover. No fancy acid treatments or other long exotic protocols. Carl McIntosh To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island sea kayak Vancouver island accommodation Vancouver island real estate Yacht Vancouver island lodging Vancouver island hotel --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8724|8717|2005-09-05 11:00:06|jericoera|Re: Good painting system for steel|John , i will phone the guy today and ask him for full verification on his system including washing and then report back here on the forum. I would tend to agree with your theory though as it doesn't take much. I was over looking at Alex's boat and where he had been grinding/ welding, the sparks and fine material had actually started to rust on top of his primer. No serious damage but it does demonstrate how miniscule something can be to create a pain in the neck. Alex recommended I put down a mat to catch sparks etc. Carl McIntosh p.s. i'll find out why the fellow used organic zinc primer over inorganic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris wrote: > Hi Carl, thanks for the paint report. Did the guy say why he used organic zinc vs inorganic zinc? > > Did he mention cleaning the zinc salts off or washing the hull after priming. > > How many coats of zinc? > > Sorry for the barrage of questions but I'm interested because I've had a few small problems with organic zinc showing rust blooms. I sand blasted and painted in 32' square feet sections and brushed on the inorganic zinc rich primer within an hour and usually less. The exterior hull was all brush painted and some rust blooms showed after the winter. Someone on this site said that a roller should have been used as a brush will remove or thin out the peaks of the sand blast tooth right at the surface. Since the hull was all done the same way, the brush theory does not seem to hold water as 95% is ok. > > I think that the problem was recycled cinder blast medium, as the rust blooms were at the stern 25% were I recycled the cinder medium. There were no rust blooms after I used just virgin cinders. > > John > > > > > jericoera wrote: > I am not certain what everyone else is doing but I saw a paint job on > a metal boat that is just approaching its sixth year and it is in A1 > shape. > > I asked the guy what he did and he told me he sandblasted the boat to > the metal in small areas. Within 15 minutes of getting it down to bare > metal, he applied organic zinc epoxy primer. > > He told me that if you tried to sandblast the whole boat even indoors > or under cover, the ambient moisture in the air would already be > causing minute oxidization that would later show up as rust streaks in > the paint. > > He only blasted what he could immediately cover. No fancy acid > treatments or other long exotic protocols. > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island sea kayak Vancouver island accommodation Vancouver island real estate Yacht Vancouver island lodging Vancouver island hotel > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8725|8717|2005-09-05 11:17:55|john kupris|Re: Good painting system for steel|Hi Carl, Thanks and I will be looking forward to your reply. John jericoera wrote:John , i will phone the guy today and ask him for full verification on his system including washing and then report back here on the forum. I would tend to agree with your theory though as it doesn't take much. I was over looking at Alex's boat and where he had been grinding/ welding, the sparks and fine material had actually started to rust on top of his primer. No serious damage but it does demonstrate how miniscule something can be to create a pain in the neck. Alex recommended I put down a mat to catch sparks etc. Carl McIntosh p.s. i'll find out why the fellow used organic zinc primer over inorganic --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris wrote: > Hi Carl, thanks for the paint report. Did the guy say why he used organic zinc vs inorganic zinc? > > Did he mention cleaning the zinc salts off or washing the hull after priming. > > How many coats of zinc? > > Sorry for the barrage of questions but I'm interested because I've had a few small problems with organic zinc showing rust blooms. I sand blasted and painted in 32' square feet sections and brushed on the inorganic zinc rich primer within an hour and usually less. The exterior hull was all brush painted and some rust blooms showed after the winter. Someone on this site said that a roller should have been used as a brush will remove or thin out the peaks of the sand blast tooth right at the surface. Since the hull was all done the same way, the brush theory does not seem to hold water as 95% is ok. > > I think that the problem was recycled cinder blast medium, as the rust blooms were at the stern 25% were I recycled the cinder medium. There were no rust blooms after I used just virgin cinders. > > John > > > > > jericoera wrote: > I am not certain what everyone else is doing but I saw a paint job on > a metal boat that is just approaching its sixth year and it is in A1 > shape. > > I asked the guy what he did and he told me he sandblasted the boat to > the metal in small areas. Within 15 minutes of getting it down to bare > metal, he applied organic zinc epoxy primer. > > He told me that if you tried to sandblast the whole boat even indoors > or under cover, the ambient moisture in the air would already be > causing minute oxidization that would later show up as rust streaks in > the paint. > > He only blasted what he could immediately cover. No fancy acid > treatments or other long exotic protocols. > > Carl McIntosh > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island sea kayak Vancouver island accommodation Vancouver island real estate Yacht Vancouver island lodging Vancouver island hotel > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island sea kayak Vancouver island accommodation Vancouver island real estate Yacht Vancouver island lodging Vancouver island hotel --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8726|8726|2005-09-05 16:09:32|chip|Re: Digest - More Angle grinder mayhem|I probably should keep my mouth shut here but I'm compelled to share my angle grinder & other power tool experiences: I, too have a number of (let's say ... a few ...) scars from the angle grinder's abrasive wheel and a couple from the wire brush as well. One of the worst of those was an actual accident: A wire escaped from the spinning brush and buried itself in the back of my thumb. It laid along the bone, I guess, and I had to make a little slice with a single-edge razor blade to get at it. My sweetie's a jeweler and has tee-tiny tweezers I used to reach in my tiny incision and pull the wire out. That was just a couple weeks ago. It hurt ... A couple years ago I was drilling a 7/16" hole in a piece of 1/2" steel. I had the steel in a vise and was using a hefty drill. The bit grabbed in the metal and the drill wrapped its cord around my hands and arms, jerking me onto the vise. Because of the force of that cord, it was all I could do to get my finger off the trigger - I actually thought my wrists were broken. It happened so quickly - One second I was drilling, the next I was chest-down on the vise in agony. That hurt But my favorite all-time stupidity happened almost ten years back when I was lying on the ground using a cutting torch over my head while building a trailer. I had an old truck frame I'd cut and put a hitch-receiver on and had set a tool-box bed onto the frame. I was cutting off the old shock mounts and other stuff where the tool box would otherwise hit. I'm in Central Florida; it was mid-summer, probably 99 degrees, and I was wearing long sleeves, elbow-length canvas welding gloves and a welder's helmet. Probably 110 degrees under that black box. Sweating so bad that I wouldn't have been able to see had I not been looking straight up. I fully expected to get burn lots of little holes in my pants and shirt (and the skin beneath them ...) but was looking forward to actually crawling out from my personal oven beneath this trailer. I finished the cutting, turned off the gas at the torch, pulled off the helmet and gloves and unbuttoned the shirt. Then I rolled onto my stomach to pull the shirt off, still in the sand under the trailer. I was HOT ... But when I rolled onto my stomach, I rolled right onto the just-turned-off torch. I have a scar on my stomach that'll be there the rest of my life. It's instantly recognizable as the head of a cutting torch. Almost 5" long. Oh, that hurt. Oh - I also band-sawed about halfway through the first finger on my left hand while hand-pushing a tiny piece of wood through the saw ... duh ... Still have no feeling in the tip of that finger ... I hate to admit that ... there's more ... chip in central florida ps - please don't write to tell me how stupid I am. I have friends for that. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 3:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Digest Number 1297 Message: 1 Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:37:00 -0500 From: "Lipsey" Subject: Re: More Angle grinder mayhem I too have had my accidents with grinders through the years, none serious, but all scary and eye opening. ... | 8727|8726|2005-09-06 00:19:12|Lipsey|Re: Digest - More Angle grinder mayhem|ps - please don't write to tell me how stupid I am. I have friends for that. Hey Chip, we're all "friends" here! LOL (with you, not at you ;~) ). David Lipsey,comrade in scars... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8728|8722|2005-09-06 03:51:58|sae140|Re: Origami Houses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McNeill" wrote: > This post is for anybody who would like to get into the origami > house business. It is a modified version of an e-mail note that I > have sent to several companies that are trying to develop heavy > lifter airships to fill a niche between airfreight which is faster than > lighter than air freight would be but and expensive ocean going > freight that is cheaper but much slower > If you want to build tornado-proof shelters then you could do a lot worse than consider the temporary steel structures that were erected during WWII which were based on galvanised heavy duty corrugated curved panels. There were some small units known as Anderson shelters which were covered in soil after erection and used as bomb shelters, but I've also seen much larger structures (typically 60ft long by 10ft high) in the rural countryside which are still being used as machinery stores and barns. When concreted into the ground these can take a lot of wind, due to their semi-circular cross-section which the wind can't get a grip on. There's still suction to consider, with ground anchoring being more important than sheer weight - d'you notice how many trees were left standing after Katrina ? These don't make very pretty buildings - but will take a lot of abuse. And being modular you can deliver 'em by truck, or on pallets by helicopter - no need for giant airships. Colin| 8729|8722|2005-09-06 04:38:04|Frank McNeill|Re: Origami Houses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > If you want to build tornado-proof shelters then you could do > a lot worse than consider the temporary steel structures that > were erected during WWII which were based on galvanised heavy > duty corrugated curved panels. > There were some small units known as Anderson shelters which > were covered in soil after erection and used as bomb shelters, > but I've also seen much larger structures (typically 60ft long > by 10ft high) in the rural countryside which are still being > used as machinery stores and barns. > When concreted into the ground these can take a lot of wind, > due to their semi-circular cross-section which the wind can't > get a grip on. There's still suction to consider, with ground > anchoring being more important than sheer weight - d'you notice > how many trees were left standing after Katrina ? These don't > make very pretty buildings - but will take a lot of abuse. > And being modular you can deliver 'em by truck, or on pallets > by helicopter - no need for giant airships. > > Colin Hi Colin, I don't want to build anything— too old and too poor. Anyhow, there already are a lot of companies that sell various kinds of storm shelters for people to bury in their back yards. There are also companies that build underground houses. They are very expensive, and are made of reinforced concrete. Most cities and towns don't issue permits for them. For a bit of history about what you suggested, go to: < http://tinyurl.com/5mqbc >. Best wishes, Frank| 8730|8722|2005-09-06 06:58:01|edward_stoneuk|Re: Origami Houses|Frank, Colin, There was an article recently in Professional Engineer about a clear span aicraft hanger that was built in one of the Arabian Gulf Countries. The full width sections were built flat on the ground like a bridge then the centre was jacked up and the ends winched in to make a giant curved span. Several spans were made side by side and joined to complete the building. Very definitely origami. Regards, Ted| 8731|8726|2005-09-06 07:35:42|edward_stoneuk|Re: Digest - More Angle grinder mayhem|Chip, Last week I was welding a new nut on a pair of mole grips. A small job so I didn't wear my leather gauntlets. After I had finished, forgetting that I didn't have my gloves on I picked the grips up and seared my hand between my thumb and palm. I wrapped my hand in a wet rag to cool it and try and stop it cooking and drove back to the house to get an ice pack and ice. I kept the ice pack, kind of blue gel in a plastic bag that we keep in the feezer for sprains and burns wrapped in a tea towel pressed betwen my thumb and palm until my hand went numb, maybe 15 minutes. I removed it and let the feeling come back. Then with my lips I compared the temperature of cooked and uncooked hand. I kept doing this until the temperature of my hand was the same all over. This took maybe 1½ hours and several melts of ice. The result was a slight blistering except for a 3/16th or so second degree burn hole right at the base of my thumb where the ice didn't get to. I think that if I hadn't cooled it down that the damage would have been a lot worse. Now, one reads first aid advice against the use of ice in stopping flesh from cooking after a burn. One web page says to use cold water only briefly to cool the area down. My experience is that it will take a lot longer then briefly. Of course there is a lot of difference in managing ones own burn compared with treating someone else in terms of knowing the effect of the ice (it must be wrapped in a cloth to prevent an ice burn)in terms of feeling cold and feeling pain. Even the best nurse or doctor would not be able to manage the cooling treatment as well as the patient. I do not recommend the use of ice to lessen burn damage. But I will use it again. Regards, Ted| 8732|8726|2005-09-06 08:48:22|Tim|Re: Digest - More Angle grinder mayhem|I always keep a can of Freon handy. Just don't overdo it. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 4:35 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Digest - More Angle grinder mayhem Chip, Last week I was welding a new nut on a pair of mole grips. A small job so I didn't wear my leather gauntlets. After I had finished, forgetting that I didn't have my gloves on I picked the grips up and seared my hand between my thumb and palm. I wrapped my hand in a wet rag to cool it and try and stop it cooking and drove back to the house to get an ice pack and ice. I kept the ice pack, kind of blue gel in a plastic bag that we keep in the feezer for sprains and burns wrapped in a tea towel pressed betwen my thumb and palm until my hand went numb, maybe 15 minutes. I removed it and let the feeling come back. Then with my lips I compared the temperature of cooked and uncooked hand. I kept doing this until the temperature of my hand was the same all over. This took maybe 1½ hours and several melts of ice. The result was a slight blistering except for a 3/16th or so second degree burn hole right at the base of my thumb where the ice didn't get to. I think that if I hadn't cooled it down that the damage would have been a lot worse. Now, one reads first aid advice against the use of ice in stopping flesh from cooking after a burn. One web page says to use cold water only briefly to cool the area down. My experience is that it will take a lot longer then briefly. Of course there is a lot of difference in managing ones own burn compared with treating someone else in terms of knowing the effect of the ice (it must be wrapped in a cloth to prevent an ice burn)in terms of feeling cold and feeling pain. Even the best nurse or doctor would not be able to manage the cooling treatment as well as the patient. I do not recommend the use of ice to lessen burn damage. But I will use it again. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8733|8726|2005-09-06 11:16:11|will jones|Re: Digest - More Angle grinder mayhem|I only came upon oragami boats a couple of months ago and have been lurking about. But I see the need to pipe in on this topic. Leather gloves, eye protection, breathing protection and no loose clothes seems to be forgotten mantras. Avoid those new grip type synthetic work gloves, too hard to get you hand out of if something grabs it. Avoid tight leather gloves for the same reason. Needless to say, loose clothing and hair are easy targets. Drills, watch the kickback when the bit binds. I have a 20yr old 1/2" chuck craftsman that I never get a body part between it and the handles. It will break or crush anything in its way. Keep a loose hand on the t-handle. When the bit binds the drill rotates counterclockwise. Hey, only open that acetylene 1/4 - 1/2 turn and keep the pressure between 10 & 15 psig. You only need about 10 psig for most operations and home cutting heads. Too many people just crank the acetylene open. One of the things I would like to stress is dust protection when grinding. One of my uncles and grandfather died of emphysema and my next door neighbor has it. Not a pretty way to have the life sucked out of you. Get some NIOSH rated dust protection. I don't mean to offend anyone, but maybe someone new without much experience can get some safety ideas. Lipsey wrote: ps - please don't write to tell me how stupid I am. I have friends for that. Hey Chip, we're all "friends" here! LOL (with you, not at you ;~) ). David Lipsey,comrade in scars... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island sea kayak Vancouver island accommodation Vancouver island real estate Yacht Vancouver island lodging Vancouver island hotel --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8734|8734|2005-09-06 21:55:33|Alex|36 foot hull for sale|I helping to broker a friend's 36 foot bare hull, located next to mine in Courtenay, BC, description as follows: 36 foot steel twin keel Swain hull $18,500 USD, or $22,000 CDN. The hull is already lead ballast installed and sealed in (saving a major job), a rudder, skeg, major welding runs on hull complete, 1" ID stainless steel handrails, hatchframes on cabin. Needs ss hatchframe for main hatch, bow roller, shaft-tube installed, sand-blast and paint, and engine beds. These are not major items, and could be fabricated and installed in several days by Brent. With a rise in the cost of steel, this boat represents quite good value for the dollar and is being sold at less than cost to the owner. It's a huge leap ahead for anyone wanting to get into one of these boats, and with good planning could be in the water and floating in less than two weeks. My recommendation would be to complete the last of the detailing, blast and paint, then foam interior and launch the boat, finishing the rest on the water at a location of your own choice. The welds are very smooth on the exterior with no need for grinding, just blast, prime and paint. Contact me, Alex (moderator for Origamiboats) at achristie@... for more info. I can also be reached on Skype at "origamiboats" if anyone uses that. I have posted several photos in our photo section here under "36' for sale" album, and will add more later showing the interior. Alex| 8735|8735|2005-09-07 02:22:18|Alex|photos of hull for sale|I have posted further photos of the hull for sale in group 2, http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/origamiboats2 under 36' For Sale photo album. Alex| 8736|7433|2005-09-07 22:41:01|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|The searchable archive has been updated to current as of 9/6/05 and now contains 8,726 messages. This page features an intelligent search engine and there are no advertisements. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Please bookmark this site. A link has been placed in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web site if you should forget the link. Regards, --Ken Hooper| 8737|8717|2005-09-07 23:57:11|jericoera|Re: Good painting system for steel|My buddy is out of town but should be back on the weekend. Haven't forgot--I'll get his painting protocol and post it for everyone to have a look at. Cheers Carl McIntosh| 8738|8738|2005-09-08 09:49:58|Frank McNeill|Notions for ship models and toys with origami-like hulls|A jpg. file with sketches of culvert-like manufactured steel homes has not generated any interest. So as promised, I deleted it a few minutes ago and replaced it with a pdf. file about toy boats that could be made by using strips of bamboo as "planks for hulls, decks and deck structures. Anybody who might like to get into the working ship model and toy business can use anything that is shown or suggested by this file. Using bamboo is not a requirement, because models made of other materials might pave the way for models made partly of bamboo. I can provide more information for anybody who would like to receive it. Best wishes, Frank| 8739|8717|2005-09-09 18:48:32|brentswain38|Re: Good painting system for steel|If you are building with wheelabraded and zinc primed steeel, a good arguement can be made for giving the whole works another coat of zinc as soon as the shell is pulled together. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > My buddy is out of town but should be back on the weekend. Haven't > forgot--I'll get his painting protocol and post it for everyone to > have a look at. > > Cheers > > Carl McIntosh | 8740|8700|2005-09-09 22:43:28|Wesley Cox|Re: A gentle reminder|fwiw, several years ago I had a fleck from a bench grinder make its way through one of the small side ventilation holes in the goggles I was wearing and sear to my eye. I hardly noticed when it happened, but soon after it became irritated. It was over the pupil in normal light so for 2 days my eye was extremely irritated but I couldn't find why until I looked at it in a mirror under bright light to constrict the pupil enough to see the black steel not over the pupil. I had it removed by an eye doc. and he used a small grinder to remove the rust from the eyeball surface (creepy sensation). Embedded rust not removed can apparently lead to serious eye damage. I now strictly use a face shield, no glasses or goggles. edward_stoneuk wrote: >Bill, > >A similar thing happened to me years ago cleaning burnt paint off a >motorcycle tank using a cup wire brush in a 9" grinder. It caught in >my loose shirt and all but tore it off my back leaving me with swirl >grazes on my stomach. Last tuesday I was in the A&E having a bit of >steel removed from my iris. So not only tuck loose clothing in but >wear safety glasses or goggles when grinding as well. > >Regards, >Ted > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 8741|8741|2005-09-11 13:32:28|SHANE ROTHWELL|trim tab & hydraulic steering|I didnt have a trim tab, but an aries with hydraulic steering. in this case the pri9nciple is the same. Yes, you do need a bypass valve, preferably at the helm or there is no way your vane/tillerpilot/whatever you are useing other than the wheel will be able to overpower the hydraulic system. However, make damned sure that it is not in the way & inadvertantly gets opened as happened to the Aussie & his lady who bought the boat from me. Theyy went to Macau from Honkers & aparently a bit of excitement coming in fr a landing (with the inevitable audience at the dock). Laundry down & lashed, putting along & someone had hung a shirt on the valve arm & turned on the valve when they had removed the shirt..... putting toward the dock & no steerage. luckily the fellow remembered just in time & shut the bypass off. better tye the valve off so this can't happen. bye the bye. soft copper tubing will take up to 2 tonne of pressure (enuf for manual hydraulics 4 steering). wish I'd known as I did the whole installatn in hard copper which was a major pain. __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca| 8742|8742|2005-09-11 16:09:47|Alex|Origami Boatbuilding DVD now complete|Dear Group, The Origami Boatbuilding Video is finally done! The two-disc film on building a 36 foot origami steel hull will be ready for shipping in one week. The two-disc set details building from flat plate on the ground to a bare hull (including keels and skeg, deck, pilot house, cockpit and solid lifelines. As soon as I can I will put a series of stills into an album in Group 2 so that you can get a good idea of what each chapter of the film includes (There are some 17 chapters in the first film and 24 in the second. This is a very comprehensive video primarily of interest to builders or potential builders who want see very focussed details about building one of these hulls -- don't expect the family and kids to stay awake for the duration of over 3 hours if you are hoping to entertain them! I have been very light with the editing knife because there are many scenes where it was good to know what Brent did in real time, not chopped up -- I have tried to make it more like it would be if you were actually there watching. While this makes it almost dreary to watch, there are subtle ways that Brent works the steel that are worth capturing fully so that you can "learn by seeing". There isn't a lot of music (beginning and end of each film only), and I'm sad to say no bikinis in this one. That'll be saved for the cruising video to the South Pacific or Mexico. There is a dog, however, who always seems to be in the frame either sleeping or wandering around. But seriously there will be a forthcoming DVD specifically for the other members of the family or partnership to view and see the potential in store should you begin and complete a project. Contained in this will be selected clips from the other films to also leave an impression as to how the technique works and what makes it worth using. I would also like to include some interesting features about heavy weather sailing and any unique technical aspects that these boats offer. It should definitely be more entertaining. As I fit out the boat I'll also document all the steps to completing the interior and exterior details, so there should be at least one more disc at some point, making a total of 4 discs of 1 to 1.5 hours each. The cost for the current two disc set will be $45 USD for USA and International, $50 Cdn for Canada. I will determine cost of shipping this week, but it should be between $3 to $5 by air. If you are interested in ordering, please let me know at achristie@.... The video will also be available at some bookstores and marine shops in British Columbia at some point, and I hope to attend the fall boatshow in Vancouver with a booth, so perhaps I'll see you there. Regards, Alex Christie Fanny Bay, BC, Canada| 8743|8742|2005-09-11 20:40:11|J & H Fuller|Re: Origami Boatbuilding DVD now complete.|Well done Alex. Put me down for a DVD set. John Fuller Campbell River, BC. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 10/09/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8744|8700|2005-09-11 23:53:48|johnh94927|Re: A gentle reminder|And something I was taught as a machinist - don't wear gloves when using a bench grinder. If your glove makes contact with the grinder, the grinder can 'grab' the glove fabric and suck your hand into it. These thing happen so fast that there just isn't time to react, no matter how fast you think your reflexes are. Grinders are very, very dangerous and unforgiving machines. I've heard of people getting long hair caught in them, and the lucky ones only got scalped. One of the best and most experienced machinists I knew lost the use of a hand due to a grinder accident. I got my thumb caught in a grinder, and it burned like hell. Approach grinders with caution. - John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > fwiw, several years ago I had a fleck from a bench grinder make its way > through one of the small side ventilation holes in the goggles I was > wearing and sear to my eye. I hardly noticed when it happened, but soon > after it became irritated. It was over the pupil in normal light so for > 2 days my eye was extremely irritated but I couldn't find why until I > looked at it in a mirror under bright light to constrict the pupil > enough to see the black steel not over the pupil. I had it removed by > an eye doc. and he used a small grinder to remove the rust from the > eyeball surface (creepy sensation). Embedded rust not removed can > apparently lead to serious eye damage. I now strictly use a face > shield, no glasses or goggles. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > >Bill, > > > >A similar thing happened to me years ago cleaning burnt paint off a > >motorcycle tank using a cup wire brush in a 9" grinder. It caught in > >my loose shirt and all but tore it off my back leaving me with swirl > >grazes on my stomach. Last tuesday I was in the A&E having a bit of > >steel removed from my iris. So not only tuck loose clothing in but > >wear safety glasses or goggles when grinding as well. > > > >Regards, > >Ted > > > > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8745|8700|2005-09-12 00:43:05|Jerry Scovel|Re: A gentle reminder|It is also not a good idea to wear rings, watches or jewelry. Let the wheel do the cutting rather than forcing it. Be careful at edges, corners and other areas that the wheel can catch as it may kick back. Grip the grinder firmly and never use a grinder that is stronger than you are. on 9/11/05 10:53 PM, johnh94927 at johnh94927@... wrote: And something I was taught as a machinist - don't wear gloves when using a bench grinder. If your glove makes contact with the grinder, the grinder can 'grab' the glove fabric and suck your hand into it. These thing happen so fast that there just isn't time to react, no matter how fast you think your reflexes are. Grinders are very, very dangerous and unforgiving machines. I've heard of people getting long hair caught in them, and the lucky ones only got scalped. One of the best and most experienced machinists I knew lost the use of a hand due to a grinder accident. I got my thumb caught in a grinder, and it burned like hell. Approach grinders with caution. - John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > fwiw, several years ago I had a fleck from a bench grinder make its way > through one of the small side ventilation holes in the goggles I was > wearing and sear to my eye. I hardly noticed when it happened, but soon > after it became irritated. It was over the pupil in normal light so for > 2 days my eye was extremely irritated but I couldn't find why until I > looked at it in a mirror under bright light to constrict the pupil > enough to see the black steel not over the pupil. I had it removed by > an eye doc. and he used a small grinder to remove the rust from the > eyeball surface (creepy sensation). Embedded rust not removed can > apparently lead to serious eye damage. I now strictly use a face > shield, no glasses or goggles. > > edward_stoneuk wrote: > > >Bill, > > > >A similar thing happened to me years ago cleaning burnt paint off a > >motorcycle tank using a cup wire brush in a 9" grinder. It caught in > >my loose shirt and all but tore it off my back leaving me with swirl > >grazes on my stomach. Last tuesday I was in the A&E having a bit of > >steel removed from my iris. So not only tuck loose clothing in but > >wear safety glasses or goggles when grinding as well. > > > >Regards, > >Ted > > > > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8746|8746|2005-09-12 01:52:18|Alfredo Nannetti|Vancoover boatshow|Hy guys, when is the boat show in Vancoover? Thanks Alex for your work! I' m tremendly courious to see the videos! Alfredo (Italy)| 8747|8742|2005-09-12 10:52:41|Puck III|Re: Origami Boatbuilding DVD now complete|Hi Alex , please post where I can wire or send you the money via Western Unon or IBAN account ( your International Bank Account Number ) shipment for Belgium and eventual other European countries included. I sure am soooo curious to see the good work. Succes Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Dear Group, > > The Origami Boatbuilding Video is finally done! The two-disc film on building a 36 foot > origami steel hull will be ready for shipping in one week. > > The two-disc set details building from flat plate on the ground to a bare hull (including > keels and skeg, deck, pilot house, cockpit and solid lifelines. As soon as I can I will put a > series of stills into an album in Group 2 so that you can get a good idea of what each > chapter of the film includes (There are some 17 chapters in the first film and 24 in the > second. > > This is a very comprehensive video primarily of interest to builders or potential builders > who want see very focussed details about building one of these hulls -- don't expect the > family and kids to stay awake for the duration of over 3 hours if you are hoping to > entertain them! I have been very light with the editing knife because there are many > scenes where it was good to know what Brent did in real time, not chopped up -- I have > tried to make it more like it would be if you were actually there watching. While this > makes it almost dreary to watch, there are subtle ways that Brent works the steel that are > worth capturing fully so that you can "learn by seeing". > > There isn't a lot of music (beginning and end of each film only), and I'm sad to say no > bikinis in this one. That'll be saved for the cruising video to the South Pacific or Mexico. > There is a dog, however, who always seems to be in the frame either sleeping or > wandering around. But seriously there will be a forthcoming DVD specifically for the other > members of the family or partnership to view and see the potential in store should you > begin and complete a project. Contained in this will be selected clips from the other films > to also leave an impression as to how the technique works and what makes it worth using. > I would also like to include some interesting features about heavy weather sailing and any > unique technical aspects that these boats offer. It should definitely be more entertaining. > > As I fit out the boat I'll also document all the steps to completing the interior and exterior > details, so there should be at least one more disc at some point, making a total of 4 discs > of 1 to 1.5 hours each. > > The cost for the current two disc set will be $45 USD for USA and International, $50 Cdn > for Canada. I will determine cost of shipping this week, but it should be between $3 to $5 > by air. > > If you are interested in ordering, please let me know at achristie@s... The video will > also be available at some bookstores and marine shops in British Columbia at some point, > and I hope to attend the fall boatshow in Vancouver with a booth, so perhaps I'll see you > there. > > Regards, > > Alex Christie > > Fanny Bay, BC, Canada | 8748|8748|2005-09-12 12:59:35|John Waalkes|vidio|Well done Alex. Put me down for a set. I may have to order another book from Brent as I loaned mine to a friend and may have to break his arm to get it back. Just bought a new DVD player in anticipation of watching your vidio. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8749|8749|2005-09-13 18:37:04|Frank McNeill|Exchange of files|I deleted a pdf about origami toy boats from files after deciding that nobody was interested in it, and replaced it with a jpg titled BUSH AND DADDY as proof that President Bush learned about the New Orleans flood and is using a boat to rescue victims. Best wishes, Frank| 8750|8750|2005-09-13 21:15:11|rcjoyner|given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|If I have a wooden boat and want to make a steel copy of it, how do I go about making an origami pattern??? can anyone point me toward the answer??| 8751|8750|2005-09-14 07:08:20|Gerd|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|Dou you have the actual boat (with or without plan and lines) or the plans for a boat? Can you tell us a bit more? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > If I have a wooden boat and want to make a steel copy of it, how do I > go about making an origami pattern??? > > can anyone point me toward the answer?? | 8752|8752|2005-09-14 10:24:53|sae140|Watertight hatch|Ben - any chance of posting a slightly bigger graphic of: CAPOTE~1 (2).JPG This one is only 8K, and I can't see too much detail .... Ta.. Colin| 8753|8752|2005-09-14 15:45:00|Puck III|Re: Watertight hatch|Hi Colin download in Files : _hr_capotetanche.jpg For Colin our SAE 140 :-) rds Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Ben - any chance of posting a slightly bigger graphic of: > CAPOTE~1 (2).JPG > > This one is only 8K, and I can't see too much detail .... > > Ta.. Colin | 8754|8754|2005-09-14 15:55:33|Robert Mitchell|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it|If you go to site www.origamimagic.com, I believe they offer this service. Another alternative is to input the points into a CAD program that will flatten the panels. TouchCAD is one that does this (www.touchCAD.com) Note that the CAD programs will probably generate different flat patterns than Brent's dart method, but you can probably get close enough. -- Sincerely Robert Mitchell| 8755|8754|2005-09-14 17:25:34|Alex Christie|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it|I think Brent gives a description of it in the archived posts. I'd look for it myself, but I'm up to my ears in getting boatbuilding DVD's ready to ship out :-) Alex On 14-Sep-05, at 12:55 PM, Robert Mitchell wrote: > If you go to site www.origamimagic.com, I believe they offer this > service.  Another alternative is  to input the points into a CAD > program > that will flatten the panels.  TouchCAD is one that does this > (www.touchCAD.com)  Note that the CAD programs will probably generate > different flat patterns than Brent's dart method, but you can probably > get close enough. > > -- > Sincerely > > Robert Mitchell > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8756|8750|2005-09-14 17:26:55|rcjoyner|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|i have the boat sitting on a trailer in my workshop. r joyner --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Dou you have the actual boat (with or without plan and lines) or the > plans for a boat? Can you tell us a bit more? > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > > If I have a wooden boat and want to make a steel copy of it, how do > I > > go about making an origami pattern??? > > > > can anyone point me toward the answer?? | 8757|8754|2005-09-14 18:30:06|Paul Cotter|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it|Alex, Speaking of shipping DVDs, have you considered using PayPal for money transfers? Cheers Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: 09/14/2005 1:26 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it I think Brent gives a description of it in the archived posts. I'd look for it myself, but I'm up to my ears in getting boatbuilding DVD's ready to ship out :-) Alex On 14-Sep-05, at 12:55 PM, Robert Mitchell wrote: > If you go to site www.origamimagic.com, I believe they offer this > service. Another alternative is to input the points into a CAD > program > that will flatten the panels. TouchCAD is one that does this > (www.touchCAD.com) Note that the CAD programs will probably generate > different flat patterns than Brent's dart method, but you can probably > get close enough. > > -- > Sincerely > > Robert Mitchell > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8758|8754|2005-09-14 19:37:54|Alex Christie|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it|Hi Group, I am now set up to receive payments via PayPal. My PayPal account is the same as my email: achristie@... Cost for the DVD, including shipping, to USA & International is $50 USD, or $59 CDN. Shipping within Canada is $53 CDN. I can also accept money orders or cheques, and one buyer has already used Western Union successfully. I have already shipped out 5 DVD sets this afternoon; one within Canada, 3 to the US, and one to Belgium (thanks, Old Ben!). Thanks for all your interest and support for my filmmaking endeavour, Alex On 14-Sep-05, at 3:32 PM, Paul Cotter wrote: > Alex, > > Speaking of shipping DVDs, have you considered using PayPal for money > transfers? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: 09/14/2005 1:26 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: given a boat - how do you make an > origami pattern of it > > I think Brent gives a description of it in the archived posts.  I'd > look for it myself, but I'm up to my ears in getting boatbuilding > DVD's > ready to ship out :-) > > Alex > > On 14-Sep-05, at 12:55 PM, Robert Mitchell wrote: > > > If you go to site www.origamimagic.com, I believe they offer this > >  service.  Another alternative is  to input the points into a CAD > > program > >  that will flatten the panels.  TouchCAD is one that does this > >  (www.touchCAD.com)  Note that the CAD programs will probably > generate > >  different flat patterns than Brent's dart method, but you can > probably > >  get close enough. > > > >  -- > >  Sincerely > > > >  Robert Mitchell > > > > > >  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >   _____  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > *          Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. >   > *          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   > *          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >   Terms of Service. > >   _____  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. >   > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8759|8750|2005-09-15 02:55:11|Gerd|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|.. and no set of lines I suppose. That means you would first have to take the lines of the boat and re-create the plan. After that you have 2 options: either you build a model and lift a "skin" of it that you experiment with until it folds proper to the desired shape or you go the CAD way an do it on the computer. the first is described here in the messages and in Brents excellent book, and for the CAD work, you might wat to check out my site at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/, there is a longer description of how I did it with Rhino3D. If it sits on a trailer in your workshop, I understand it's a smaller boat... if it's trailerable and wood, converting to steel might not be easy within the same displacement. And is it hard or round-chine? Although it is possible to get an origami shape that is very close to most designs, it DOES give a very distinctive shape neither hard- nor roundchine and if you have to go through all the taking off of the lines and re-designing, it is probably easier and actually better to do a new design. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > i have the boat sitting on a trailer in my workshop. > > r joyner > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Dou you have the actual boat (with or without plan and lines) or the > > plans for a boat? Can you tell us a bit more? > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > > > If I have a wooden boat and want to make a steel copy of it, how do > > I > > > go about making an origami pattern??? > > > > > > can anyone point me toward the answer?? | 8760|8752|2005-09-15 03:42:51|sae140|Re: Watertight hatch|Merci bien/ Merci Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hi Colin download in Files : > _hr_capotetanche.jpg > For Colin our SAE 140 :-) > > rds Old Ben > | 8761|8761|2005-09-15 14:32:47|rafaccad|dvd|Hi Alex, I have Brent's book, and would like to purchase your DVD. Can you tell me how to proceed and the cost to send to Brazil Thanks, Rafael.| 8762|8754|2005-09-16 01:20:32|jim dorey|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it|On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:37:51 -0300, Alex Christie wrote: > Shipping within Canada is $53 CDN. ? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8763|8763|2005-09-16 08:23:13|cortesbobinoz|Swain 26 and 31 layout and profile|I'm considering building a Swain 26 or 31, though I'm leaning towards a 31. Does anyone have a basic layout or plan they could post to help me make up my mind? Any opinions of people who have sailed or built either boat would be greatly appreciated. Thanks:Bob As the old saying goes: don't start vast projects with half-vast ideas.| 8764|8750|2005-09-16 18:50:09|brentswain38|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|Make full sized patterns with door skins and a glue gun. Just staple the door skins on the hull and overlap them where needed , glueing the overlaps with a glue gun. Experiment with the seams to get as tight a fit as you can, then lay them out on the floor to get the pattern for the plate shapes.For most hard chine hulls this should be no problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > i have the boat sitting on a trailer in my workshop. > > r joyner > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Dou you have the actual boat (with or without plan and lines) or the > > plans for a boat? Can you tell us a bit more? > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rcjoyner" wrote: > > > If I have a wooden boat and want to make a steel copy of it, how do > > I > > > go about making an origami pattern??? > > > > > > can anyone point me toward the answer?? | 8766|8707|2005-09-16 19:50:41|brentswain38|Re: Guzzler pumps|Guzzler is a brand name. The real problem is with the check valves an extremely dificult rubber shape to jury rig. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Is Guzzler a brand or type....pump ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 16:21, brentswain38 wrote: > > I had a diaphragm failure on my Guzzler pump while crossing the > > equator. When I took it apart I found that the manufacturers had gone > > to great lengths to prevent me from using jury rigged parts , to force > > me to buy their parts. Not an option in mid Pacific. When I originally > > bought the pump, they had left out every second bolt, which ,thankfully > > I discovered before leving the store,and the dealer gave me enough to > > replace them.They were tiny and a real pain in the ass to deal with at > > sea in tight quarters. I would reccommend avoiding guzzler pumps at all > > costs. Build your own pumps and keep things simple. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8767|8767|2005-09-16 20:00:53|brentswain38|Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|I tried the airhead. Cedar didn't work. Peat moss from under an old log did. The lid had to be left cracked a bit to let air in. While composting, there was absolutely no smell in the boat, even while dumping. The vent outlet was smelly and should be as high as possible, possibly into a hollow mast. When composting, it smelled more like a cross between old manure and cedar sawdust, not as objectionable as the fresh stuff. The trap door is unneccesasary, just drop a cap over the big hole , to be removed when dumping. The liquid container doesn't have to fit the head. A plastic hose lets you put it nearby or under the head which lets you use any plastic container. I found I put out 1.5 litres per day. The separate container lets you use a bigger one, but not out of sight as this would risk overflowing it. A 2 inch square fan with the corners cut off , fits perfectly inside a 2 inch plastic coupling. glue the pipe in one end, drill a small hole for the wires to go out, , drop the fan in and push the pipe in the other end. It makes a tough abusable fan. Brent| 8769|22|2005-09-16 20:24:25|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /thinker2.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/thinker2.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8770|8767|2005-09-16 20:49:53|Puck III|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: When composting, it smelled more like a cross between old manure and cedar sawdust, not as objectionable as the fresh stuff. Brent regarding the above statement , I could not resist , hehehe sory guys , to post the latest file , with the intropic and Link to : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ the moderator over there , my old pal Verbertus , " Hi Verbertus , if you happen to read this post ", sure an expert in boatdesign now turned a green hobby into an interesting group with a discussion forum about transforming fresh stuff into ......... I will leave any further discussions to the experts... hoping this info and link helps in your trials :-) I love that pic , even if it can't be considered a real Origami topic on the other hand , Nature can produce all sorts of forms and shapes. Hoping no one shoots the innocent messenger. Old Ben| 8771|22|2005-09-16 21:04:28|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /bootnonolet-+Nonolet+for+boats.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Serious NONOLET infopic for use onboard;-) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/bootnonolet-%2BNonolet%2Bfor%2Bboats.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8772|8767|2005-09-16 21:13:16|kendall|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I tried the airhead. Cedar didn't work. Peat moss from under an old > log did. The lid had to be left cracked a bit to let air in. While > composting, there was absolutely no smell in the boat, even while > dumping. The vent outlet was smelly and should be as high as possible, > possibly into a hollow mast. When composting, it smelled more like a > cross between old manure and cedar sawdust, not as objectionable as > the fresh stuff. > The trap door is unneccesasary, just drop a cap over the big hole , > to be removed when dumping. The liquid container doesn't have to fit > the head. A plastic hose lets you put it nearby or under the head > which lets you use any plastic container. I found I put out 1.5 litres > per day. The separate container lets you use a bigger one, but not out > of sight as this would risk overflowing it. > A 2 inch square fan with the corners cut off , fits perfectly inside > a 2 inch plastic coupling. glue the pipe in one end, drill a small > hole for the wires to go out, , drop the fan in and push the pipe in > the other end. It makes a tough abusable fan. > Brent Curious, your comment about venting into a hollow mast, would it be possibly that venting it up a mast would provide enough draw to eliminate the need for a fan? I had a ~14 foot long, six inch pipe running out the garage that was for the woodstove (moved it into an out of the way corner in the summer) and it would draw enough air to keep the garage well vented on a cool night. Ken| 8773|8765|2005-09-16 22:23:22|Michael Casling|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|We know that he has drawn different conclusions than you have. I think it would be best to challenge his conclusions, but not to ridicule the person. It does nothing to improve your own status. David Gerr is well respected and his books are well read. I have his book and I have yours, I will make my own conclusions as does everyone. However I refuse to make derogatory remarks about the person. I might ask questions about the conclusions to learn more. I would encourage anyone to read David Gerr's books, and to read your book. There is valuable information in both. It would not be anywhere near a perfect world if everyone agreed with our own ideas. David Gerr has a lot of positive things to say about metal boats in his books. I read books that I might not agree with to learn, not to ridicule. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 3:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] David Gerr, vs reality A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments ever made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and lives into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning the abysmal stupidity of his comments. This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. Brent To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8774|8774|2005-09-16 23:42:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|strength and framing|I've published a study on the relative effects of framing and hull curvature on stiffness and strength that the group might find interesting. http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm The study shows that adding flat bars to the inside edges of the stringers to produce "L"'s once the hull is pulled together will increase the stiffness and strength of the hulls/decks by a factor of about 4. The study showed that curvature for stiffening and strengthening a hull and deck is not very significant unless the curvature is reasonably high. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8775|8765|2005-09-17 05:01:29|Gerd|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach to aplly scantling rules for different materials to be within common empiric and accepted standards. It is extremely usful, especially to amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all out myself. "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun to read and shows a person with a very open mind. He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no way dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, and sombody who would never say THIS is the ONLY way to build a boat... It is true that he is not in favour of steel for SMALL boats, although he has designed a number of steel boats himself. Applying his scantling rules to my own design, I would get a very heavy boat indeed. This is due to the fact that his scantling makes heavy allowance for corrosion - something that today we would look at differently given new paint schemes and positive results that can be observed on boats that were built over a quater of a century ago. But then, his scantling rules are just that, applicable safe guidelines - and he prefers to err on the safe side. I know that you have done some Gerr-bashing before, and I don't know what makes you bring this up again right now - inapproriate recycling of old sail magazine pages in the airhead maybe? ;-) - but this time I really think that you are going too strong there. I do not think that somebody with such a flagrant absence of any published calculations and numbers for his own designs (which of course does not make your boats any worse!) should abuse Gerr in such a general way and especially not in this tone. Looks like the summer break is over. Greg is back as well ;-) with all respect ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments ever > made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. > I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the > realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. > It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how > easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and lives > into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning the > abysmal stupidity of his comments. > This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. > Brent | 8776|8774|2005-09-17 05:08:31|Gerd|Re: strength and framing|Welcome back Greg ;-) What you've been up to? Why not use an L profile to begin with? I have L stringers in my hull, but actually I would prefer Ts by now, the L, when bending wants to go sideways, and the symetrical T is easier to apply to the curve. Also, I think that next time I would place all stringers on the hull, the way Brent does, before pulling the sheets. I did not dare to do that, and thought it might get to difficut to pull, did not really trust the entire origami idea anyway in those days ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http;//www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I've published a study on the relative effects of framing and hull curvature on stiffness and strength that the group might find interesting. > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > The study shows that adding flat bars to the inside edges of the stringers to produce "L"'s once the hull is pulled together will increase the stiffness and strength of the hulls/decks by a factor of about 4. The study showed that curvature for stiffening and strengthening a hull and deck is not very significant unless the curvature is reasonably high. > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8777|8774|2005-09-17 05:32:32|Alex Christie|Re: strength and framing|I noticed that when we put in the L stringers first, before pulling together, it really made the skin stiff and tight after the pulling, in the true "stress skin" fashion. At first blush I too wondered if it would make the skin intolerably stiff to pull, but in reality the curves are very long and smooth on these hulls so it wasn't much of a fight at all. And of course the longitudinal stringers don't interfere with making the curve at the turn of the bilge in the forward and aft sections. Alex On 17-Sep-05, at 2:08 AM, Gerd wrote: > Welcome back Greg ;-) What you've been up to? > > Why not use an L profile to begin with? > > I have L stringers in my hull, but actually I would prefer Ts by now, > the L, when bending wants to go sideways, and the symetrical T is > easier to apply to the curve. > > Also, I think that next time I would place all stringers on the hull, > the way Brent does, before pulling the sheets. I did not dare to do > that, and thought it might get to difficut to pull, did not really > trust the entire origami idea anyway in those days  ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http;//www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I've published a study on the relative effects of framing and hull > curvature on stiffness and strength that the group might find > interesting. > > > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > > > The study shows that adding flat bars to the inside edges of the > stringers to produce "L"'s once the hull is pulled together will > increase the stiffness and strength of the hulls/decks by a factor of > about 4.  The study showed that curvature for stiffening and > strengthening a hull and deck is not very significant unless the > curvature is reasonably high.  > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. >   > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8778|8774|2005-09-17 05:44:23|Gerd|Re: strength and framing|Yes, Alex, would do that now. In my case it's worse I guess, because the bottom is flat, and when the halves are joined all the weight sits on the flat bottom panels (as opposed to a bottom chine in your case) the sheets bend inward. I had to bring in the stringers beginning at the top, do the sides first to stiffen the hull, put the deck on, and then jack stern and bow up to let the bottom bend freely in space before I now can bring in the stringers in the bottom. It works, but it's a pain to bend them in afterwards, and I wish I had done that before. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I noticed that when we put in the L stringers first, before pulling > together, it really made the skin stiff and tight after the pulling, in > the true "stress skin" fashion. At first blush I too wondered if it > would make the skin intolerably stiff to pull, but in reality the > curves are very long and smooth on these hulls so it wasn't much of a > fight at all. And of course the longitudinal stringers don't interfere > with making the curve at the turn of the bilge in the forward and aft > sections. > > Alex > > > On 17-Sep-05, at 2:08 AM, Gerd wrote: > > > Welcome back Greg ;-) What you've been up to? > > > > Why not use an L profile to begin with? > > > > I have L stringers in my hull, but actually I would prefer Ts by now, > > the L, when bending wants to go sideways, and the symetrical T is > > easier to apply to the curve. > > > > Also, I think that next time I would place all stringers on the hull, > > the way Brent does, before pulling the sheets. I did not dare to do > > that, and thought it might get to difficut to pull, did not really > > trust the entire origami idea anyway in those days  ;-) > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http;//www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > I've published a study on the relative effects of framing and hull > > curvature on stiffness and strength that the group might find > > interesting. > > > > > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > > > > > The study shows that adding flat bars to the inside edges of the > > stringers to produce "L"'s once the hull is pulled together will > > increase the stiffness and strength of the hulls/decks by a factor of > > about 4.  The study showed that curvature for stiffening and > > strengthening a hull and deck is not very significant unless the > > curvature is reasonably high.  > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > >   > > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   > > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8779|8765|2005-09-17 06:41:36|Puck III|Re: David Gerr, vs reality - Thinking about a Puff !!|Hi Gerd , good to see you back , I hope you liked the Links I posted about the NONOLET , aint that " Thinker Pic " great ?? Hehehe , Yeah again I can't resist realy to post an interesting Link regarding your latest " Puff Post " :-) I sure am no expert regarding the subject , maybe others in the Group are better informed and can help ....... I am not sure the Dutch Cabinet consist in experts about that subject ( as with Framing in Boatbuilding wich is easy to overdo !!! as with Bakshish and greesing oil ; I believe the correct dose at the right time in the right place is a good moto :-) http://www.overgrow.com/edge/showthread.php?threadid=436838 " it wasn't me " who wrote that Expert Opinion :-) to strong and obscure stuff in a BoatDesign school ?? Sure [ lots of fun ] there....... Just wondering where all this will end..... Please keep smiling :-) Da Belgian Puff Dady Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) > > "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach > to aplly scantling rules for different materials >It is extremely usful, especially to amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all out myself. > > "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically > obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun to read and shows a person with a very open mind. > > He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and > from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no >way dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, > > with all respect ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 8781|869|2005-09-17 13:12:06|Carl Volkwein|Re: welding|I've welded some prety thin stuff(like 1\16") with an Arc welder. It's been a few years ago, but I think I used a very SHORT arc, like almost sticking the electrode and keeping the arc that short, another thing I remember was useing another rod, as if I were gas welding, useing it like a filler rod. I never did use the " coper backing plate" but it sounds like it would work. I guess my point is, I remember a long arc just burning through rite away, while haveing some success with a very short arc, and as small a rod as they'd give me. Carl Volkwein sae140 wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Well, the 2 mm plating on deck and cabin is not as easy as I > remembered :-( > > the problem > is that 2 mm is really thin, as soon as I hesitate or insist a > little bit or have a gap it all just melts away and leaves me with a > gaping hole. > Hi Gerd A couple of years back I played with a multi-purpose inverter - you know the sort of thing: MIG/TIG/ARC and probably plasma cutter - it had about 60 knobs on the front panel and it wouldn't have surprised me if there had been one there for riveting wrought-iron .... ;-) It was a dream to use and had the facility to automatically start an arc when the electrode was about 1 or 2 mm from the workpiece. Once 'struck', the arc length could be expanded to about 5 or 6 mm without losing it. That was a brilliant facility to have especially when the amps were turned right down. I'm pretty sure you could have arc-welded down to less than 1 mm with that. However, back to the real world ...... 2mm is right on the limit of what I can successfully weld with my simple "1 current knob and a tig switch" inverter using electrode +ve. In my limited experience it's the heat dump capacity of the workpiece which is critical, so like yourself I find burn-through when working with relatively small areas to be a constant problem. One second's hesitation is all it takes. Tacking is usually the worse candidate, whereas I find large areas - like the butt-welding of long seams - to be less of a problem by using a figure-of-eight or a spiral weave where the electrode is constantly moving. Whether this works by the constant electrode movement, or by increased heat-dumping by the widening of the weld pool - I really couldn't say. I'm sure the professionals out there will say that this is bad practice, but I find a solid hammer-proof weld results, with no observable undercutting. Melt-through still persists at the very ends of butt welds, presumably due to less area for heat dumping, where a copper backing plate is called for, as Ted suggests. I've recently bought a MIG welder to use with thin material, but it seems to be more of a glue-gun than a welder. More practice needed, I guess. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8782|8765|2005-09-17 15:06:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Hi Gerd, New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I was in Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy cat. I also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse Marine in China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to review what it would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados on business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids and finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat and catching up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to do it. I made the mistake of taking my own advice :). I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well accepted. It is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an origami boat up to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but currently it suffers from two problems: 1. Shape 2. Scantlings Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the limitations of the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of designers, builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats because what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't been improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to expand on this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in the next MBS. http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the acceptance of origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering point of view and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other metal boats. As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized standards and Geer provides a simple means to do this. Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a boat that does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to our designs and have found that with careful review we have been able to produce lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the existing "rules of thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to improve the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the status quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the technique. 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized standards. The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of the market. So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of designers, builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. We can remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and easy to build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 2:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) > > "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach > to aplly scantling rules for different materials to be within common > empiric and accepted standards. It is extremely usful, especially to > amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all > out myself. > > "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically > obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun > to read and shows a person with a very open mind. > > He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and > from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no way > dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, and > sombody who would never say THIS is the ONLY way to build a boat... > > It is true that he is not in favour of steel for SMALL boats, although > he has designed a number of steel boats himself. Applying his > scantling rules to my own design, I would get a very heavy boat > indeed. This is due to the fact that his scantling makes heavy > allowance for corrosion - something that today we would look at > differently given new paint schemes and positive results that can be > observed on boats that were built over a quater of a century ago. But > then, his scantling rules are just that, applicable safe guidelines - > and he prefers to err on the safe side. > > I know that you have done some Gerr-bashing before, and I don't know > what makes you bring this up again right now - inapproriate recycling > of old sail magazine pages in the airhead maybe? ;-) - but this time > I really think that you are going too strong there. I do not think > that somebody with such a flagrant absence of any published > calculations and numbers for his own designs (which of course does not > make your boats any worse!) should abuse Gerr in such a general way > and especially not in this tone. > > Looks like the summer break is over. Greg is back as well ;-) > > with all respect ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments > ever >> made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. >> I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the >> realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. >> It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how >> easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and > lives >> into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning > the >> abysmal stupidity of his comments. >> This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. >> Brent > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 8783|8765|2005-09-17 16:01:11|Gerd|Origami shape and Scantling|Good points Greg. Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds of cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher scantling when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, this is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and calculated. Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as solutions for different hullshapes. I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the middle are already the end of the road. There must be other combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be seen? do you have it? so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get my kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy spray. At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching back below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Gerd, > > New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I was in > Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy cat. I > also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse Marine in > China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to review what it > would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados on > business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids and > finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat and catching > up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to do it. I > made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > > I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well accepted. It > is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an origami boat up > to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but > currently it suffers from two problems: > > 1. Shape > 2. Scantlings > > Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the limitations of > the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of designers, > builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats because > what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't been > improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to expand on > this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in the next > MBS. > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > > Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the acceptance of > origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering point of view > and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other metal boats. > As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized standards and > Geer provides a simple means to do this. > > Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a boat that > does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to our designs > and have found that with careful review we have been able to produce > lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the existing "rules of > thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to improve > the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the status > quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > > 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the technique. > 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized standards. > > The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of the market. > So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of designers, > builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. We can > remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > > A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and easy to > build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. > > Greg Elliott | 8784|8765|2005-09-18 06:58:15|nortje_wynand|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Gerd, scantling rules are interesting. You can have chined, raduis/round bilge boats with or without frames. But one have to remember that a hull can be transversed or longitudinally framed. To determine scantlings one has to consider the unsupported panel size, (hull/deck plating) loads and stresses it will be subjected to etc etc. Multi chined hulls can, and in many cases are "frameless" and depends on longitudinal stringers and strategically placed bulkheads for strenght - the hard chines gives the hull plenty initial stiffness. OTOH, origami is not so special as to have different scantling rules, incidently, one have large areas of plating that indeed need some bracing, in the form of frames, stringers, and floors to take up the keel loadings subjected to the hull. Same for chainplate loadings inserted on the hull. Gerr's book "boat strenght" is quite a universal reference for scantling rules witout doing all the big maths and calc oneself. And bear in mind that it is better the err on the safe side - one day one's life might just depend on that....... All the best Wynand Nortje --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Good points Greg. > > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds of > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher scantling > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, this > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) > > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and > calculated. > > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as solutions > for different hullshapes. > > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. > > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be > seen? do you have it? > > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get my > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy spray. > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching back > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Gerd, > > > > New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I > was in > > Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy > cat. I > > also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > Marine in > > China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to > review what it > > would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados > on > > business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids > and > > finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat > and catching > > up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to > do it. I > > made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > > > > I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > accepted. It > > is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an > origami boat up > > to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but > > currently it suffers from two problems: > > > > 1. Shape > > 2. Scantlings > > > > Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > limitations of > > the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of > designers, > > builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats > because > > what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't > been > > improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to > expand on > > this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in > the next > > MBS. > > > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > > > > Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > acceptance of > > origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering > point of view > > and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other > metal boats. > > As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > standards and > > Geer provides a simple means to do this. > > > > Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a > boat that > > does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to > our designs > > and have found that with careful review we have been able to > produce > > lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the > existing "rules of > > thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > > hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > improve > > the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > > > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > > > To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the > status > > quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > > > > 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > technique. > > 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized > standards. > > > > The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of > the market. > > So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > designers, > > builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. > We can > > remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > > > > A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and > easy to > > build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. > > > > Greg Elliott | 8785|8750|2005-09-18 10:24:32|khooper_fboats|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Make full sized patterns with door skins and a glue gun. Just staple > the door skins on the hull and overlap them where needed , glueing > the overlaps with a glue gun. Can somebody enlighten us please, what are door skins? Google implies it is auto body sheet metal but this seems unlikely in the present context. I know what a glue gun is. Canadianisms. =^) --Hoop| 8786|8750|2005-09-18 10:43:56|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > >>Make full sized patterns with door skins and a glue gun. Just staple >>the door skins on the hull and overlap them where needed , glueing >>the overlaps with a glue gun. > > > Can somebody enlighten us please, what are door skins? Google implies > it is auto body sheet metal but this seems unlikely in the present > context. > > I know what a glue gun is. > > Canadianisms. =^) North Americanisms :) From context, I've deduced it's the single thickness, or perhaps just really thin ply, timber sheets used to manufacture those hollow doors most folks have in their houses. You know, the ones that have the eggcarton like stuff inside them. Chris| 8787|8787|2005-09-18 12:02:51|jericoera|electropolishing stainless parts|I had the occassion to see some very nice hatches a couple days ago and asked the guy how much he paid for them. He laughed like hell at me. He made them out of scap stainless, got some plexi for free from the ice rink as they throw away the broken plexi that gets smashed in hockey games but there always pieces kicking around more than large enough for hatches if you want some light to get in and they are thick. Then , so he tells me, he sent them out to be electropolished. Not familiar with the term I asked about it and it involves dipping the stainless into an electrolyte bath and having current applied to it. It comes out with a mirror finish. I checked on the website and you could expect to pay close top $1200 for a "pretty" hatch like that one brandnew. Electropolished and everything I am told that this guy payed around $50 per hatch. Not at bad price if you are the concerned type about the best possible asthetics. Cheers Carl McIntosh| 8788|8765|2005-09-18 12:31:57|seeratlas|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Hiyas Greg, Sounds like you are having way too much fun :) I read your article on stiffness and looked at your table but maybe I'm just dense. What units are you using? i.e. .01 what? On the Gerr matter, I think I read some of the Gerr article that Brent is referring to. You might want to look at his specific comments. I was a bit surprised. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Gerd, > > New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I was in > Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy cat. I > also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse Marine in > China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to review what it > would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados on > business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids and > finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat and catching > up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to do it. I > made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > > I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well accepted. It > is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an origami boat up > to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but > currently it suffers from two problems: > > 1. Shape > 2. Scantlings > > Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the limitations of > the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of designers, > builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats because > what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't been > improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to expand on > this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in the next > MBS. > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > > Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the acceptance of > origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering point of view > and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other metal boats. > As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized standards and > Geer provides a simple means to do this. > > Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a boat that > does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to our designs > and have found that with careful review we have been able to produce > lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the existing "rules of > thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to improve > the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the status > quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > > 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the technique. > 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized standards. > > The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of the market. > So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of designers, > builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. We can > remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > > A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and easy to > build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. > > Greg Elliott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 2:01 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > > > > Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) > > > > "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach > > to aplly scantling rules for different materials to be within common > > empiric and accepted standards. It is extremely usful, especially to > > amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all > > out myself. > > > > "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically > > obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun > > to read and shows a person with a very open mind. > > > > He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and > > from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no way > > dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, and > > sombody who would never say THIS is the ONLY way to build a boat... > > > > It is true that he is not in favour of steel for SMALL boats, although > > he has designed a number of steel boats himself. Applying his > > scantling rules to my own design, I would get a very heavy boat > > indeed. This is due to the fact that his scantling makes heavy > > allowance for corrosion - something that today we would look at > > differently given new paint schemes and positive results that can be > > observed on boats that were built over a quater of a century ago. But > > then, his scantling rules are just that, applicable safe guidelines - > > and he prefers to err on the safe side. > > > > I know that you have done some Gerr-bashing before, and I don't know > > what makes you bring this up again right now - inapproriate recycling > > of old sail magazine pages in the airhead maybe? ;-) - but this time > > I really think that you are going too strong there. I do not think > > that somebody with such a flagrant absence of any published > > calculations and numbers for his own designs (which of course does not > > make your boats any worse!) should abuse Gerr in such a general way > > and especially not in this tone. > > > > Looks like the summer break is over. Greg is back as well ;-) > > > > with all respect ;-) > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments > > ever > >> made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. > >> I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the > >> realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. > >> It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how > >> easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and > > lives > >> into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning > > the > >> abysmal stupidity of his comments. > >> This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. > >> Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8789|8765|2005-09-18 12:35:26|seeratlas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling The Mandarin|Greg, how did the Mandarin react in a seaway? I seem to have heard that the first one out of the shop went to Japan, and it was rolling so bad, he had to plug then relocate some of the vents as he was taking on so much water. Pretty much decimated the crew as I recall also. George's ducks are marvels of spacial efficiencies, but without some form of stabilization can be nigh intolerable in seaway. Has the yard made some modifications to solve that problem? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Good points Greg. > > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds of > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher scantling > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, this > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) > > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and > calculated. > > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as solutions > for different hullshapes. > > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. > > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be > seen? do you have it? > > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get my > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy spray. > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching back > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Gerd, > > > > New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I > was in > > Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy > cat. I > > also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > Marine in > > China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to > review what it > > would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados > on > > business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids > and > > finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat > and catching > > up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to > do it. I > > made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > > > > I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > accepted. It > > is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an > origami boat up > > to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but > > currently it suffers from two problems: > > > > 1. Shape > > 2. Scantlings > > > > Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > limitations of > > the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of > designers, > > builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats > because > > what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't > been > > improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to > expand on > > this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in > the next > > MBS. > > > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > > > > Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > acceptance of > > origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering > point of view > > and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other > metal boats. > > As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > standards and > > Geer provides a simple means to do this. > > > > Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a > boat that > > does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to > our designs > > and have found that with careful review we have been able to > produce > > lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the > existing "rules of > > thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > > hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > improve > > the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > > > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > > > To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the > status > > quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > > > > 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > technique. > > 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized > standards. > > > > The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of > the market. > > So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > designers, > > builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. > We can > > remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > > > > A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and > easy to > > build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. > > > > Greg Elliott | 8790|8790|2005-09-18 13:30:44|seeratlas|Gerr/ framing/origami/ and stiffness.|The current debate and long time discussion of 'best framing' for the origami metal boats prompts me to relate a "TRUE STORY" from the development of the Martin Marietta Titan Missle Program. I happen to know this story is true as my father was the chief ground systems engineer charged with making the sob 'fly' and two of the other scientists involved were known to me and I have personally heard the story confirmed from their own lips. :) At the time the program was in Deep Chit, the Russians had an icbm up and flying, and the Titans were having a heck of a time getting out of the silo's in one piece, usually only to lose stability, invert and generally violently alter the landscape in the immediate vicinity. Lots of people were getting killed in the process. The principal problem was stabilizing the guidance systems. Everyone was calculating their heads off but the math wasn't getting the job done. One night, in utter frustration, the primary engineer showed up at our house (we're talking midnight hours here) collected my father, and off they went to latest prototype which was due for test launch in few days. The scientist, (an eminently practical german) had decided to take matters into his own hands, literally. After having set an array of sensors all around the lower portions of the missle standing there in the silo, he climbed up to the top of the scaffolding, and yelling out for everyone to get ready to take readings, he proceeded to whack the hell out of the nose with a ball peen hammer. A few weeks later, that missle flew off down into a remote place in the pacific ocean and impacted within a few hundred yards of where it was supposed to go...effectively leapfrogging the targeting capability of the Russians and forever changing the balance of power during the remainder of the Cold War. It's interesting to note that just a few years ago, when repeated failures of the US's newest rocket design resulted in losses of extremely valuable satellite payloads, the 'powers that be' when faced with the need to launch a 'mission critical' payload, decided to remove the warhead from a nearly 45 year old Titan, slap on the substitute, and push the button. and....just like it did so many years ago, up and away she roared, still the most dependable available. Tho my father and those engineers are now long dead, they surely would have smiled at the sight.:) Now, the reason I bring this up is this. With all of the engineering expertise available, it 'should' be easy to calculate the requisite scantlings...ASSUMING all relevant forces and conditions are somehow entered into the calculation 'mix', however, this is often more easily said than done. The effect of any kind of framing has a drastic effect on the surrounding 'skin' dependant upon a whole host of variables, for example the contact area, the speed of the impact, the impacting shape and direction, the temperature of the metal at the time, the decelleration of the impacting object- it's mass etc. etc. etc. Again, i've always been advised to start at the 'real world' and work backwards. So just what is it that you are mostly likely to hit in a boat, where is the impact most likely to occur, at what speeds in what conditions...Imho this should set the design objective and dictate the manner of design and construction. Just as the auto industry has spent years and years figuring out how to design for lowest material cost, while maintaining some protection from impacts, I assume that similarly lots of advancements in origami design and construction will be made. I am reminded however, that nature has also spent some time trying to determine empirically what shapes and construction techniques best optimize internal volume with structural strength and rigidity, with minimal material utilization: its called an egg and there seems to be very little transverse framing involved :) My own 'gut' tells me that Greg and others who are pursuing more complex hull shapes utililizing additional darts and localized framing will advance the aesthetic aspect of the origami procedure, however, this will surely come at greater complexity and cost. Whether the anticipated improvements in performance will justify those 'costs' will be determined by the market. I await hull impact reports with reefs, containers, beachings, other boats, docks and submerged timber. On the other hand, there are a lot of Brent's and Evan's boats out there, floating. Many have met their own real world 'ball peen' hammer tests and come thru in a very comforting manner. If the 'advancements' can achieve a similar record with reduced weight, increased speed, similar comfort, and not greatly increased costs, then perhaps they will come to dominate the origami world. As more are launched, we will see. It is the ocean and its perils that are the ultimate judge of the seaworthiness of a vessel, and by far the best proving grounds, that is, assuming that the 'deep blue' is where you want your boat to take you. :) How does the old Breton fisherman's prayer go? something like this? "Lord thy sea is so vast and my ship is so small, and my ship in the harbor would be safe..... but that... is not what ships are built for.." :) seer| 8791|8791|2005-09-18 13:53:22|John Waalkes|Re, door skins|Check, Home Depot, Lowes, building suppliers. Door skins are just that, thin plywood used for doors. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8792|8765|2005-09-18 17:18:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Hi Gerd, If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless framing - the span length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you run the longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on the same spacing, with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 girth, you are going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as the "transverse only" framed boats. 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, depending on the boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast support and furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and mounted off the skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for origami with little if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of similar shape, and can expect about the same amount of support from the plating. Without the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than the conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span length of the longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the boats heavier. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling > Good points Greg. > > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds of > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher scantling > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, this > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) > > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and > calculated. > > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as solutions > for different hullshapes. > > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. > > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be > seen? do you have it? > > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get my > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy spray. > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching back > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Hi Gerd, >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I > was in >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy > cat. I >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > Marine in >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to > review what it >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados > on >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids > and >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat > and catching >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to > do it. I >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > accepted. It >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an > origami boat up >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but >> currently it suffers from two problems: >> >> 1. Shape >> 2. Scantlings >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > limitations of >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of > designers, >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats > because >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't > been >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to > expand on >> this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in > the next >> MBS. >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > acceptance of >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering > point of view >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other > metal boats. >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > standards and >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a > boat that >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to > our designs >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to > produce >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the > existing "rules of >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > improve >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the > status >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > technique. >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized > standards. >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of > the market. >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > designers, >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. > We can >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and > easy to >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. >> >> Greg Elliott > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8793|8750|2005-09-18 17:45:01|kendall|Re: given a boat - how do you make an origami pattern of it.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > > > khooper_fboats wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > >>Make full sized patterns with door skins and a glue gun. Just staple > >>the door skins on the hull and overlap them where needed , glueing > >>the overlaps with a glue gun. > > > > > > Can somebody enlighten us please, what are door skins? Google implies > > it is auto body sheet metal but this seems unlikely in the present > > context. > > > > I know what a glue gun is. > > > > Canadianisms. =^) > > North Americanisms :) > > From context, I've deduced it's the single thickness, or perhaps just > really thin ply, timber sheets used to manufacture those hollow doors > most folks have in their houses. You know, the ones that have the > eggcarton like stuff inside them. > > Chris Some places have them cheap, other places it's better to buy cheap 1/4" or 1/8" plywood, though I useually pick up a few sheets of paneling on sale, it's cheap and thin enough to flex around almost any contour. If you get closeouts, or scratch and dent you can pick it up for $2 or $3 a sheet, normally the damage is a scratch on the finish side, and nothing structural, so it's perfect for patterns. Ken| 8794|8765|2005-09-18 19:04:50|brentswain38|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|The fact that the longitudinals ar running along, and thus maintaining the longitudinal curve of the hull plate, makes them far more effective than transverse framing, and thus they can be a smaller section and still be structurally more effective. Span length for longitudinals is simply enough length to incorporate enough of the curve ,as the curve supports the longitudinal the way a chine does, but far more effectively. I've found that pipes between the inside deck edges and the chine are extremely effective in the mast area, far more effective than bulkheads as they triangulate between themselves and the hull plate with it's longitudinal curves. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Gerd, > > If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless framing - the span > length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you run the > longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on the same spacing, > with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 girth, you are > going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as the "transverse > only" framed boats. > > 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, depending on the > boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast support and > furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and mounted off the > skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. > > This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for origami with little > if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of similar shape, > and can expect about the same amount of support from the plating. Without > the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than the > conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span length of the > longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the boats heavier. > > Greg Elliott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling > > > > Good points Greg. > > > > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding > > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds of > > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an > > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and > > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound > > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the > > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in > > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard > > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher scantling > > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, this > > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just > > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) > > > > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. > > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and > > calculated. > > > > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the > > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical > > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as solutions > > for different hullshapes. > > > > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the > > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other > > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely > > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, > > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. > > > > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be > > seen? do you have it? > > > > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more > > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get my > > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy spray. > > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching back > > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Hi Gerd, > >> > >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I > > was in > >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy > > cat. I > >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > > Marine in > >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to > > review what it > >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados > > on > >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids > > and > >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat > > and catching > >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to > > do it. I > >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > >> > >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > > accepted. It > >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an > > origami boat up > >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but > >> currently it suffers from two problems: > >> > >> 1. Shape > >> 2. Scantlings > >> > >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > > limitations of > >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of > > designers, > >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats > > because > >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't > > been > >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to > > expand on > >> this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in > > the next > >> MBS. > >> > >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > >> > >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > > acceptance of > >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering > > point of view > >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other > > metal boats. > >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > > standards and > >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. > >> > >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a > > boat that > >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to > > our designs > >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to > > produce > >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the > > existing "rules of > >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > > improve > >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > >> > >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > >> > >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the > > status > >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > >> > >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > > technique. > >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized > > standards. > >> > >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of > > the market. > >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > > designers, > >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. > > We can > >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > >> > >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and > > easy to > >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8795|8765|2005-09-18 19:09:33|brentswain38|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|If I remember correctly, he said that an aluminium hull would stand a better chance on a rocky lee shore, as aluminium is far more resistant to gouging and is much tougher than steel. I that why all knives, chisels, drills and other tools used to cut steel are made out of aluminium?Duhh. there were othe equally abysmal comments made in the article which I don't remember exactly. It was in a sail magazine a while back. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > What were the comments? > > brentswain38 wrote: > > A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments ever > > made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. > > I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the > > realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. > > It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how > > easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and lives > > into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning the > > abysmal stupidity of his comments. > > This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. > > Brent | 8796|8765|2005-09-18 19:12:00|Alex|hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|I have always been curious about the possibly beneficial physics behind the "stress-skin" effect on origami hulls in terms of providing stiffness and strength - can someone comment on this? I have been wondering about this ever since watching very closely as cameraman filming the building process for the DVD. I saw that putting the longitudals down first, then spring the curve into the plate after as you pull the half-hulls together not only puts the hull skin into tension but also the longitudal stringer (angle iron) attached to it. Essentially we are springing a curve into a very strong almost "i" beam (we could have put T-irons instead, if we wanted a true i-beam effect, but it is pretty close). There is, of course, the gridwork of tranvserse members running laterally across the keels, and that takes very good care of the central region of the hull where many forces are acting (and yes, this IS transverse framing, but we still call the initial hull construction "frameless" because the construction of the intial hull does not rely on transverse frames to reach its final shape, but it does call for them where the keels interact with the hull). The ends of the hull have no stingers but here are some of the tightest curves "stressed" in to the hull over-all, and it is a very stiff and strong zone. The only extra strengthening material in this area is the half-inch thick stem-bar, 4" deep (I think) which runs right up to the bottom of the anchor-well. Having no extraneous framing in this region keeps it very nice and light and should improve handling and performance. Alex| 8797|8767|2005-09-18 19:14:28|brentswain38|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|I recently heard on CBC radio that the Airhead type of toilet seat , designed to separate solids from liquids, was designed by NASA for spacecraft.So much for patent claims. They even put video cameras under the seat to enable precise positioning. Geez , are those guys up there that desperate for entertainment? The minimum clearance between the top of the seat and the highest point in the bowl seem about 3 inches minimum. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > When composting, it smelled more like a cross between old manure and > cedar sawdust, not as objectionable as the fresh stuff. > > Brent > > regarding the above statement , I could not resist , hehehe > sory guys , to post the latest file , with the intropic and Link > to : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost-toilet/ > > the moderator over there , my old pal Verbertus , > " Hi Verbertus , if you happen to read this post ", > sure an expert in boatdesign now turned a green hobby > into an interesting group with a discussion forum > about transforming fresh stuff into ......... > I will leave any further discussions to the experts... > > hoping this info and link helps in your trials :-) > > I love that pic , even if it can't be considered > a real Origami topic on the other hand , Nature > can produce all sorts of forms and shapes. > > Hoping no one shoots the innocent messenger. > > Old Ben | 8798|8767|2005-09-18 19:17:10|brentswain38|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|I believe that a dark coloured mast whould havean excellent updraft in summer and even on clear winter days. When I sealed the head, the fan wasn't always neccessary, but when sealed it didn't compost as fast ,with no air going in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I tried the airhead. Cedar didn't work. Peat moss from under an old > > log did. The lid had to be left cracked a bit to let air in. While > > composting, there was absolutely no smell in the boat, even while > > dumping. The vent outlet was smelly and should be as high as possible, > > possibly into a hollow mast. When composting, it smelled more like a > > cross between old manure and cedar sawdust, not as objectionable as > > the fresh stuff. > > The trap door is unneccesasary, just drop a cap over the big hole , > > to be removed when dumping. The liquid container doesn't have to fit > > the head. A plastic hose lets you put it nearby or under the head > > which lets you use any plastic container. I found I put out 1.5 litres > > per day. The separate container lets you use a bigger one, but not out > > of sight as this would risk overflowing it. > > A 2 inch square fan with the corners cut off , fits perfectly inside > > a 2 inch plastic coupling. glue the pipe in one end, drill a small > > hole for the wires to go out, , drop the fan in and push the pipe in > > the other end. It makes a tough abusable fan. > > Brent > > Curious, your comment about venting into a hollow mast, would it be > possibly that venting it up a mast would provide enough draw to > eliminate the need for a fan? > I had a ~14 foot long, six inch pipe running out the garage that was > for the woodstove (moved it into an out of the way corner in the > summer) and it would draw enough air to keep the garage well vented on > a cool night. > > Ken | 8799|8765|2005-09-18 19:20:31|brentswain38|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Like everyone in this or other fields, I have no doubt he has some good ideas. I just found his comments putting aluminium ahead of steel for toughness , in a recent Sail magazine, were quite loonie, and far removed from proven realities, and could be dangerous to people believing them, were they unchallenged. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > We know that he has drawn different conclusions than you have. > I think it would be best to challenge his conclusions, but not to ridicule the person. It does nothing to improve your own status. > David Gerr is well respected and his books are well read. I have his book and I have yours, I will make my own conclusions as does everyone. However I refuse to make derogatory remarks about the person. I might ask questions about the conclusions to learn more. I would encourage anyone to read David Gerr's books, and to read your book. There is valuable information in both. > It would not be anywhere near a perfect world if everyone agreed with our own ideas. > David Gerr has a lot of positive things to say about metal boats in his books. I read books that I might not agree with to learn, not to ridicule. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 3:55 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] David Gerr, vs reality > > > A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments ever > made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. > I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the > realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. > It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how > easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and lives > into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning the > abysmal stupidity of his comments. > This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. > Brent > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8800|8774|2005-09-18 19:24:38|brentswain38|Re: strength and framing|Simple solutiuon. Use angle or T sections instead of flatbar for longitudinals. Angle adds far greater stiffness than flatbar on edge. For bigger boats , where big enough angle is too hard to pull into the curve, I've thought of stacking another angle on top of an existing stringer , far easier to do than initially bending in a bigger angle. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I've published a study on the relative effects of framing and hull curvature on stiffness and strength that the group might find interesting. > > http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > > The study shows that adding flat bars to the inside edges of the stringers to produce "L"'s once the hull is pulled together will increase the stiffness and strength of the hulls/decks by a factor of about 4. The study showed that curvature for stiffening and strengthening a hull and deck is not very significant unless the curvature is reasonably high. > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8801|8765|2005-09-18 19:39:35|brentswain38|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|His condemnation of steel for boats under 40 feet is extremely dogmatic, given the huge number of sucessful steel boats that have been built and cruised successfully in sizes down to 25 feet. He's denying the practicality of what has already been proven practical. It's sort of like telling a returning astronaut stepping down from the space shuttle" That thing will never get off the ground" His is living far in the past when it comes to corrosion issues . I do remember that he said that all steel boats will lose a given amount of metal over their entire hull surface every year, regardless of how well painted they are.Do you belive this? Thjis means no matter how ell a boat is painted, it will shed it's entire coat of paint anually. Should such bullshit go unchallenged?I haven't seen it happen yet. Such utter bullshit may discourage many would be metal boat cruisers , causing them to take themselves and their families to sea in boats which are less safe than the steel boat they may have chosen. An example of this is the Sleavin Family who were, all but one ,lost off New Zealand when hit by a freighter while sailing in a fibreglass boat , is an example of what allowing such idiotic ideas to prevail , unchallenged, can lead to. The guy's quite distant from reality and that needs to be pointed out, for the safety of all. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) > > "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach > to aplly scantling rules for different materials to be within common > empiric and accepted standards. It is extremely usful, especially to > amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all > out myself. > > "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically > obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun > to read and shows a person with a very open mind. > > He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and > from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no way > dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, and > sombody who would never say THIS is the ONLY way to build a boat... > > It is true that he is not in favour of steel for SMALL boats, although > he has designed a number of steel boats himself. Applying his > scantling rules to my own design, I would get a very heavy boat > indeed. This is due to the fact that his scantling makes heavy > allowance for corrosion - something that today we would look at > differently given new paint schemes and positive results that can be > observed on boats that were built over a quater of a century ago. But > then, his scantling rules are just that, applicable safe guidelines - > and he prefers to err on the safe side. > > I know that you have done some Gerr-bashing before, and I don't know > what makes you bring this up again right now - inapproriate recycling > of old sail magazine pages in the airhead maybe? ;-) - but this time > I really think that you are going too strong there. I do not think > that somebody with such a flagrant absence of any published > calculations and numbers for his own designs (which of course does not > make your boats any worse!) should abuse Gerr in such a general way > and especially not in this tone. > > Looks like the summer break is over. Greg is back as well ;-) > > with all respect ;-) > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments > ever > > made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. > > I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the > > realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. > > It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how > > easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and > lives > > into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning > the > > abysmal stupidity of his comments. > > This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. > > Brent | 8802|869|2005-09-18 19:47:46|brentswain38|Re: welding|Propping the piece up to make it a 45 degree downhand weld makes it easier. Welding an nch at a time and letting it cool helps a lot. You break the arc just before it gets hot enough to burn thru. I've welded extremely thin plastic boat stachion material by puting a blob of metal on, letting it cool, then put another one on, etc etc. Puting random blobs of metal on with a space between them , then, drop by drop, filling the spaces between them , alowing each to cool before puting another next to it, lets you weld incredibly thin stiff with a stick, once you get the hang of it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > I've welded some prety thin stuff(like 1\16") with an Arc welder. It's been a few years ago, but I think I used a very SHORT arc, like almost sticking the electrode and keeping the arc that short, another thing I remember was useing another rod, as if I were gas welding, useing it like a filler rod. I never did use the " coper backing plate" but it sounds like it would work. > I guess my point is, I remember a long arc just burning through rite away, while haveing some success with a very short arc, and as small a rod as they'd give me. > Carl Volkwein > > sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > Well, the 2 mm plating on deck and cabin is not as easy as I > > remembered :-( > > > > the problem > > is that 2 mm is really thin, as soon as I hesitate or insist a > > little bit or have a gap it all just melts away and leaves me with > a > > gaping hole. > > > > Hi Gerd > > A couple of years back I played with a multi-purpose > inverter - you know the sort of thing: MIG/TIG/ARC and > probably plasma cutter - it had about 60 knobs on the > front panel and it wouldn't have surprised me if there > had been one there for riveting wrought-iron .... ;-) > It was a dream to use and had the facility to automatically > start an arc when the electrode was about 1 or 2 mm from the > workpiece. Once 'struck', the arc length could be expanded > to about 5 or 6 mm without losing it. That was a brilliant > facility to have especially when the amps were turned right > down. I'm pretty sure you could have arc-welded down to > less than 1 mm with that. > > However, back to the real world ...... > > 2mm is right on the limit of what I can successfully weld > with my simple "1 current knob and a tig switch" inverter > using electrode +ve. > > In my limited experience it's the heat dump capacity of > the workpiece which is critical, so like yourself I find > burn-through when working with relatively small areas to > be a constant problem. One second's hesitation is all it > takes. Tacking is usually the worse candidate, whereas > I find large areas - like the butt-welding of long seams > - to be less of a problem by using a figure-of-eight or > a spiral weave where the electrode is constantly moving. > Whether this works by the constant electrode movement, > or by increased heat-dumping by the widening of the weld > pool - I really couldn't say. > > I'm sure the professionals out there will say that this > is bad practice, but I find a solid hammer-proof weld > results, with no observable undercutting. Melt-through > still persists at the very ends of butt welds, presumably > due to less area for heat dumping, where a copper backing > plate is called for, as Ted suggests. > > I've recently bought a MIG welder to use with thin > material, but it seems to be more of a glue-gun than a > welder. More practice needed, I guess. > > Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Vancouver island bc Vancouver island British columbia canada Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8803|8803|2005-09-18 21:03:22|jerryefford|TSP|You can get TSP at Home Depot| 8804|8767|2005-09-18 21:05:51|Puck III|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet) + Video|Entertainement in Space , hehehe , video cameras under the seat :-) I love to see a video on board ; for the members that do too : [ Chappelle's Show Episode 5 Duration 21.13 minutes 34.6 MB 234 kbps Bit Rate ] sory to large a file to upload in the Group , but sure on Topic , cause the video cameras give different vieuws up and under the seat , even in the water and down the tubes by Jetsky :-) is a must see to stay totaly informed about the bowl and have some fun at the same time , seriously !!! Sure not as educational as a steelboat building Video , but certainly more fun than what NASA will show on that Topic !! I'l send it to those realy interested :-) Viva la Vida .. Viva la Video !!!!!!! Dana International and Old Ben on Video ??? A streaming Video project ??? Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I recently heard on CBC radio that the Airhead type of toilet seat , > designed to separate solids from liquids, was designed by NASA for > spacecraft.So much for patent claims. > They even put video cameras under the seat to enable precise > positioning. Geez , are those guys up there that desperate for > entertainment? > The minimum clearance between the top of the seat and the highest > point in the bowl seem about 3 inches minimum. > Brent > | 8805|8765|2005-09-19 02:32:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|stiffness - moment of inertia - in^4 strength - section modulus - in^3 weight - section area - in^2 The best material for a boat depends on many factors, not the least of which is your experience. Gerr freely admits that steel is his least favorite material, having built in steel, wood, alloy and FG. I would think that name calling discredits origami, not Gerr. Pollard writes that more boats are manufactured from alloy than any other material. Maybe other builders know something this group doesn't? Simms writes that woodworkers can switch to alloy much easier than steelworkers can switch. I've found much the same. As a result, it would not be surprising that a steelworker's opinion would differ from Gerr's. Greg Elliott 1. Pollard - Boatbuilding with Aluminum 2. Simms - Aluminium Boatbuilding ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > Hiyas Greg, > Sounds like you are having way too much fun :) > > I read your article on stiffness and looked at your table but maybe > I'm just dense. What units are you using? i.e. .01 what? > > On the Gerr matter, I think I read some of the Gerr article that Brent > is referring to. You might want to look at his specific comments. > I was a bit surprised. > > seer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Hi Gerd, >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I was in >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy > cat. I >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > Marine in >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to review > what it >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados on >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids and >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat and > catching >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to do > it. I >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > accepted. It >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an origami > boat up >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but >> currently it suffers from two problems: >> >> 1. Shape >> 2. Scantlings >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > limitations of >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of designers, >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats because >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't been >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to > expand on >> this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in the > next >> MBS. >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > acceptance of >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering point > of view >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other metal > boats. >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > standards and >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a > boat that >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to our > designs >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to produce >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the existing "rules of >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > improve >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the > status >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > technique. >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized standards. >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of the > market. >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > designers, >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. We can >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and > easy to >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gerd" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 2:01 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality >> >> >> > Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) >> > >> > "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach >> > to aplly scantling rules for different materials to be within common >> > empiric and accepted standards. It is extremely usful, especially to >> > amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all >> > out myself. >> > >> > "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically >> > obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun >> > to read and shows a person with a very open mind. >> > >> > He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and >> > from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no way >> > dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, and >> > sombody who would never say THIS is the ONLY way to build a boat... >> > >> > It is true that he is not in favour of steel for SMALL boats, although >> > he has designed a number of steel boats himself. Applying his >> > scantling rules to my own design, I would get a very heavy boat >> > indeed. This is due to the fact that his scantling makes heavy >> > allowance for corrosion - something that today we would look at >> > differently given new paint schemes and positive results that can be >> > observed on boats that were built over a quater of a century ago. But >> > then, his scantling rules are just that, applicable safe guidelines - >> > and he prefers to err on the safe side. >> > >> > I know that you have done some Gerr-bashing before, and I don't know >> > what makes you bring this up again right now - inapproriate recycling >> > of old sail magazine pages in the airhead maybe? ;-) - but this time >> > I really think that you are going too strong there. I do not think >> > that somebody with such a flagrant absence of any published >> > calculations and numbers for his own designs (which of course does not >> > make your boats any worse!) should abuse Gerr in such a general way >> > and especially not in this tone. >> > >> > Looks like the summer break is over. Greg is back as well ;-) >> > >> > with all respect ;-) >> > >> > Gerd >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >> > wrote: >> >> A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments >> > ever >> >> made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. >> >> I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the >> >> realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. >> >> It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how >> >> easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and >> > lives >> >> into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning >> > the >> >> abysmal stupidity of his comments. >> >> This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. >> >> Brent >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8806|869|2005-09-19 05:01:12|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: welding|When building wood stoves the fire place inserts where made with a outside heat chamber with light gage and a fan to blow the hot air out. We welded then with 1/8th" 6011 at 150amps downhill at a raped rate with many tack welds. If you slowed down it would blow a hole that we would fix by laying 1/8th" gas welding rod into and striking a ark. The 6011 burned hot and by moving fast the heat distortion was cept down. Jon| 8807|8765|2005-09-19 10:46:57|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Interesting, if you are remembering them correctly as that contradicts what he says in _The_Elements_of_Boat_Strength_ where he says on p190 (under Disadvantages of Aluminum (sic)) "2 Less abrasion-resistant. [Aluminium] is softer than steel. This is a big plus for working and forming, but [aluminium] hulls are less resistant to abrasion. Still, [aluminium] is considerably more abrasion-resistant, however, than standard wood or fibreglass construction, so this isn't much of a drawback for most boats. In fact, [aluminium] runabouts are routinely run up on rough concrete launcing ramps on their bottom. Although not the best practice, [aluminium] hulls can survive such abuse, which most wood and FRP vessels could not. Still, when it comes to pure abrasion abuse, it's impossible to beat steel. For tugs, canal boats, barges, and dredges, steel becomes more attractive." But, Under the advantages of aluminium he lists, on p189: "11 [Aluminium] deforms to absorb more energy. [Aluminium]deforms or stretches beyond its elastic limit more than steel before rupturing. This is why dents in [aluminium] canoes and runabouts seldom split open, and can usually be hammered out again. Such plastic deformation accords [aluminium] still more energy absorption for its weight than steel." which might be why he'd say an aluminium hull would do better if bashing on rocks. Chris (To-do when appointed supreme ruler of the universe: restore the spelling of aluminium in the Webster's Dictionary to the original, correct, non-commercial version - as it was until at least 1913) brentswain38 wrote: > If I remember correctly, he said that an aluminium hull would stand a > better chance on a rocky lee shore, as aluminium is far more resistant > to gouging and is much tougher than steel. > I that why all knives, chisels, drills and other tools used to cut > steel are made out of aluminium?Duhh. > there were othe equally abysmal comments made in the article which I > don't remember exactly. It was in a sail magazine a while back. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > >>What were the comments? >> | 8808|8765|2005-09-19 11:27:04|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|brentswain38 wrote: ... > His is living far in the past when it comes to corrosion issues . I > do remember that he said that all steel boats will lose a given > amount of metal over their entire hull surface every year, regardless > of how well painted they are.Do you belive this? Thjis means no > matter how ell a boat is painted, it will shed it's entire coat of > paint anually. Should such bullshit go unchallenged?I haven't seen it > happen yet. I can't comment on what he said in the Sailing article you are referring to, as I haven't seen it, but he doesn't say this in _The_Elements_of_Boat_Strength_. He does say that if paint is damaged or you aren't careful about mixing metals, using zincs etc then steel WILL rust or otherwise corrode. And being a book of scantlings he is erring on the side of caution and realising that the owner of a boat may not take all the care the designer(or builder) intended and so he builds in corrosion allowances to allow for what you say above about losing metal each year. Chris| 8809|8809|2005-09-19 11:42:20|SHANE ROTHWELL|Door Skins|Door skins are called "banana board" in the movie industry where they are used for most everything. made mostly in Indonesia & the Philippines they are thin plywood of 3 laminates. also known as Philippine mahogony. they are 3/16" thick on average but often referred to as 1/4". the Chinese call this "lawan" including taxes it's $12.50 for a 4' x 8' sheet at Standard building supplies in Burnaby and yes they also call it door skin. also commonly available in a 4' x 10' sheets. great stuff, cheap & will form to any shape within reason & you can get tight radius out of it. great for modeling __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca| 8810|8765|2005-09-19 13:16:38|Gerd|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|And he also writes: "...I would not even begin to claim that the methods and approaches in The Elements Of Boat Strength are the only means to build strong, safe boats. I wouldn't even claim that these methods are necessarily the best methods. Indeed, there are so many ingenious and clever alternatives for creating objects as complex and beautiful as boats that no single book could hope to include even a small fraction of them..." Doesn't sound dogmatic at all to me. Maybe it would be fitting to look at his (very extensive and detailed) work with just as much of an open mind. Gerd| 8811|8765|2005-09-19 13:47:02|Michael Casling|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|It is how we present our opinions that tell a lot about ourselves. Everyday folks accross the land would like you and I to consider their plan or idea to be better than the competition. In the Insurance and financial business we are not permitted to make any unsavoury remarks about the competition or the industry. To do so will get us reported and possibly loose our licence. When we have strong beliefs in a particular way of doing something accepting an opposing opinion is not easy. I keep quiet when wood is mentioned in a derogatory manner on this group. Generalities will sink us all. Steel rusts and wood rots. Those are generalities. When steel is protected properly rust can be controlled. When good wood is used and protected properly it does not rot. It does no good to try and discredit these types of statements because the evidence is there. It is how we go about exspressing our opinions that can lead to trouble. What you say has always been presented well in my opinion. I have had trouble with others but accept the fact that this is a boat board not a Ms Manners class. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality And he also writes: "...I would not even begin to claim that the methods and approaches in The Elements Of Boat Strength are the only means to build strong, safe boats. I wouldn't even claim that these methods are necessarily the best methods. Indeed, there are so many ingenious and clever alternatives for creating objects as complex and beautiful as boats that no single book could hope to include even a small fraction of them..." Doesn't sound dogmatic at all to me. Maybe it would be fitting to look at his (very extensive and detailed) work with just as much of an open mind. Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8812|8765|2005-09-19 13:54:52|seeratlas|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > It is how we present our opinions that tell a lot about ourselves. > Everyday folks accross the land would like you and I to consider their plan or idea to be better than the competition. > In the Insurance and financial business we are not permitted to make any unsavoury remarks about the competition or the industry. To do so will get us reported and possibly loose our licence. you can add lawyers to that list... and if anyone has any doubts whatsoever as to why such 'rules' exist, I hope you never achieve a position of situational authority. Everyone talks about what is required to improve the human condition and everyone neglects to mention that what needs correcting most, is human nature, something unlikely to occur anytime soon. seer| 8813|8767|2005-09-19 14:14:54|kingsknight4life|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|Brent Have you replaced your head in the boa with the "airhead" or is this just a trial? Rowland| 8814|8765|2005-09-19 14:54:00|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Gerd, Michael and others, I think this forum is super! We are people from all ower the world, all ages, very different backgrounds! and most important of all - different goals in our dreams, with our projects etcetera. In such an environment progress will evolve, not only regarding boatbuilding techniques but also in our way of communicate and develop as humans. Sometimes we are on the egde of flaming (perfectly handled by Alex), but most of the time ideas just flow freely. I must say that in the evening when I turn on the PC and reads the latest posts it is one of the days highlights. Right now I have posted some dollars to Alex and really look forward to watch some DVDs! Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fran: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]For Michael Casling Skickat: den 19 september 2005 19:44 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Amne: Re: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality It is how we present our opinions that tell a lot about ourselves. Everyday folks accross the land would like you and I to consider their plan or idea to be better than the competition. In the Insurance and financial business we are not permitted to make any unsavoury remarks about the competition or the industry. To do so will get us reported and possibly loose our licence. When we have strong beliefs in a particular way of doing something accepting an opposing opinion is not easy. I keep quiet when wood is mentioned in a derogatory manner on this group. Generalities will sink us all. Steel rusts and wood rots. Those are generalities. When steel is protected properly rust can be controlled. When good wood is used and protected properly it does not rot. It does no good to try and discredit these types of statements because the evidence is there. It is how we go about exspressing our opinions that can lead to trouble. What you say has always been presented well in my opinion. I have had trouble with others but accept the fact that this is a boat board not a Ms Manners class. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality And he also writes: "...I would not even begin to claim that the methods and approaches in The Elements Of Boat Strength are the only means to build strong, safe boats. I wouldn't even claim that these methods are necessarily the best methods. Indeed, there are so many ingenious and clever alternatives for creating objects as complex and beautiful as boats that no single book could hope to include even a small fraction of them..." Doesn't sound dogmatic at all to me. Maybe it would be fitting to look at his (very extensive and detailed) work with just as much of an open mind. Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 8815|8765|2005-09-19 16:12:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|The curve of the hull from sheer to centerline forms an arch in a round bilged boat. In a chine boat it also forms an arch, though not as smooth. Similarly, the longitudinal curve of a hull forms an arch. Build an arch. The longer you build it, the less weight it can support, unless you increase the thickness of the material or add framing. As the arch gets longer, if you maintain the same thickness of material you will quickly reach a point at which the arch cannot support its own weight. It will buckle and collapse. Try it. Take a piece of ordinary A4 paper and hold it lengthwise in your hands so that it forms an arch - no problem. You can even get it to hold up a small weight like an eraser. Now, tape/glue 3 pieces of A4 paper together lengthwise and hold them in an arch. Use lap joints so the paper is full strength. This 3 to 1 ratio is very close to the ratio between transverse and longitudinal frame length in a boat. You will find that the arch has a hard time holding its own weight, let alone the weight of an eraser. This has been know at least since Romans times. They could not build arches past a certain size. Instead they used lots of little arches. This is the same principle in framing. Lots of short transverse frames can support much more than the same weight of longitudinal frames. If you want to use longitudinal frames without losing hull strength, you need to support them in the middle. How you support them to minimize stress risers is with a girder or bulkhead. How much hull strength do you lose with unsupported longitudinal framing? It depends on your scantlings. Assume a conventionally framed metal boat relies 50% on its frames and 50% on the curve of the plating for support. In most boats the length of the longitudinals is more than 3 times the length of the transverse frames. This makes them about 10 times less effective for a give frame size (inverse square). As such, using longitudinal framing in place of transverse framing, without transverse support would reduce our hull strength to 50% + (50% / 10) = 55%. Many conventionally framed steel hulls have sufficient corrosion allowance that they can operate at 55% of their original strength. This is the most obvious explanation why origami hulls are able to make use of longitudinal framing in spite of the loss of hull strength. Meta yachts overcome this problem by increasing the hull thickness, which is really only practical in alloy. Our method allows you to overcome this problem without increasing the hull thickness, making it practical in steel as well. Nature figured it first. Our rib cage is oriented on the short axis because this is the strongest way to build for a given weight. Even in fish who don't use their ribs for breathing. What we have done is to come up with a method that allows you to build origami boats on the long axis without a loss of strength or a weight penalty, thus allowing origami boats to overcome one of the major objections against them. The group can continue to sit here, month after month, arguing that origami is right and everyone else is wrong and no progress will result. The vast majority of designers, builders and owners are not going to accept that origami is some sort of voodoo that can ignore the laws of nature. Or, we can incorporate a few small changes that will significantly increase the strength of origami to match accepted standards and end the discussion. We have chosen the second approach. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:04 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > The fact that the longitudinals ar running along, and thus > maintaining the longitudinal curve of the hull plate, makes them far > more effective than transverse framing, and thus they can be a > smaller section and still be structurally more effective. Span length > for longitudinals is simply enough length to incorporate enough of > the curve ,as the curve supports the longitudinal the way a chine > does, but far more effectively. > I've found that pipes between the inside deck edges and the chine > are extremely effective in the mast area, far more effective than > bulkheads as they triangulate between themselves and the hull plate > with it's longitudinal curves. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Hi Gerd, >> >> If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless framing - > the span >> length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you run > the >> longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on the same > spacing, >> with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 > girth, you are >> going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as > the "transverse >> only" framed boats. >> >> 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, depending > on the >> boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast support > and >> furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and mounted > off the >> skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. >> >> This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for origami > with little >> if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of similar > shape, >> and can expect about the same amount of support from the plating. > Without >> the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than the >> conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span length of > the >> longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the boats > heavier. >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gerd" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling >> >> >> > Good points Greg. >> > >> > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding >> > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds > of >> > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an >> > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and >> > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound >> > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the >> > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in >> > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard >> > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher > scantling >> > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, > this >> > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just >> > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) >> > >> > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. >> > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and >> > calculated. >> > >> > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the >> > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical >> > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as > solutions >> > for different hullshapes. >> > >> > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the >> > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other >> > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely >> > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, >> > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. >> > >> > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be >> > seen? do you have it? >> > >> > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more >> > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get > my >> > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy > spray. >> > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching > back >> > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) >> > >> > Gerd >> > >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> Hi Gerd, >> >> >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I >> > was in >> >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot > alloy >> > cat. I >> >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse >> > Marine in >> >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to >> > review what it >> >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in > Barbados >> > on >> >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids >> > and >> >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat >> > and catching >> >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to >> > do it. I >> >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). >> >> >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well >> > accepted. It >> >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an >> > origami boat up >> >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami > but >> >> currently it suffers from two problems: >> >> >> >> 1. Shape >> >> 2. Scantlings >> >> >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the >> > limitations of >> >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of >> > designers, >> >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats >> > because >> >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that > haven't >> > been >> >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael > to >> > expand on >> >> this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in >> > the next >> >> MBS. >> >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm >> >> >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the >> > acceptance of >> >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering >> > point of view >> >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other >> > metal boats. >> >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized >> > standards and >> >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. >> >> >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with > a >> > boat that >> >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to >> > our designs >> >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to >> > produce >> >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the >> > existing "rules of >> >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different >> >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to >> > improve >> >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. >> >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm >> >> >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify > the >> > status >> >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: >> >> >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the >> > technique. >> >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized >> > standards. >> >> >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of >> > the market. >> >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of >> > designers, >> >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. >> > We can >> >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. >> >> >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick > and >> > easy to >> >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming > for. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 8816|8765|2005-09-19 17:31:17|seeratlas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Greg wrote: > The group can continue to sit here, month after month, arguing that origami > is right and everyone else is wrong and no progress will result. The vast > majority of designers, builders and owners are not going to accept that > origami is some sort of voodoo that can ignore the laws of nature. Or, we > can incorporate a few small changes that will significantly increase the > strength of origami to match accepted standards and end the discussion. We > have chosen the second approach. > > Greg Elliott I must confess greg, I'm not sure how the group is impeding anyone's work or experimentation in any way, yours least of all. Nothing said or done here inhibits your work or ability to compete in the origami market place. I have visited your site on a number of occasions and note your work on a new origami 'duck' like troller, and the rather unusual but salty sail/power boat you have depicted there. As a quick aside, have you completed the Darwin 60 yet? and if so, how has she turned out? When you have completed your 37, it would be fun to sail/power her in company with one of Brent's 36's for a real world side by side comparison of speed, motion, etc. I'm sure a number of builder/owners here would jump at the chance. Assuming the price is reasonably close, If in fact your product proves superior in accordance with your claims here, that would go a long way towards moving the discussions here in the directions you want them to go. I for one will be very interested in the comparison. seer| 8817|8817|2005-09-19 17:39:04|kingsknight4life|protecting interior wood|We are lokng at doing the interior of our boat with yellow cedar. anybody know what a good (ie. cheap and easy to apply) finish for this wood, would be? It has to be durable to stand up to foot and paw traffic. thx Rowland| 8818|8818|2005-09-20 01:33:17|jericoera|The fortunate few|There are sailors and there are builders and then there are the fortunate few who actually build and sail which is what we would all be seemingly trying to emulate for one reason or another. In the end, regardless of which boat is better or accepted or experimental, you need a vessel or access to one if you want to be on the water. I met a guy about 65 years of age known as Dusty. He built a 21 foot sail boat litteraly of scrap that he found on the beach and it had green tree limbs for ribbing and 2 two by eights as bilge keels. He junk rigged it and threw a logging chain in the bottom for ballst and old Dusty sailed that up and down the coast for quite a few trips until he met up with a bad leak and some bad weather. Dusty survived that and then built another boat which he slept under at night on the beach in Powell River because he had no home. Some $#@! a-hole youths that were drunk one night destroyed Dusty's boat and Dusty left town soon after last reported to be up in Desolation sound living on an Oyster lease. Although I don't want Dusty's boat, he didn't waste any time saying he was going to do something , he just did it. Brent and others on this board have demonstrated that same spirit that Dusty had. I think the boat that safely takes you where your heart desires is the right boat. Carl McIntosh| 8819|8765|2005-09-20 01:57:01|Alex Christie|Dream/Build/Go|Hi all, I'm surfacing a little from my full-time duty of replicating and packaging DVD's to send off thither and yon, and will briefly put my oar in before getting back to the cranky DVD burner. This is a very interesting thread, and I can see differing viewpoints on how to reach the same goal. We've got two somewhat diverging styles of boats who employ similar methods of construction --- the much beloved origami style. Speaking solely as a layman with no engineering background except that taught me by my father, and with nothing but practical experience of building the boat and witnessing the changes in the material as we worked it, I'd like to offer my viewpoint. Maybe I should wait until I've launched my boat and sailed to Tonga and back, but what the heck I'll give you my thoughts as they stand now with the caveat that I may change them in the future. I'd like to think that I have what Phil Bolger calls, "A Technical Open Mind", as discussed in his book, "Boats with an Open Mind", and when discussing the work of any designer I like to not judge harshly that which I haven't fully explored. On this group I'd like to remind everyone that all design is a process of evolution, so let's keep our ears open for fresh ideas, especially if they are rooted in practical experience, and especially if they help us reach our goals with with improved efficiency that helps us reduce cost and time spent building (ie gets us sailing sooner without compromising safety and comfort). I saw that that the deck of my hull, welded to the inside of the hull at 90 degrees (more or less) along the entire length of the hull makes that portion of the boat a huge "T" section with incredible strength and vast stiffness. It is not just an open hull stiffened solely by longitudinals, this is a boxed-in set of curves all interacting with each other. Even with just the side decks welded on (no sides of cabin nor cabin-top) the boat hull was suddenly stiffened. As we added each tier of deck elements (sides, then cabin top), the hull continued to stiffen, till finally it was a unified structure which could be lifted from one corner without twisting along its length. I could also see that the midships chine, seen usually only from underwater, is also a stiffener, since it is pretty hard to push in the the point of a corner like that, nor can it be "bent" up or down because of those intersecting angles of steel. Ditto for the veed bottom which, in addition to its curved shape longitudinally as we come down from bow and rise up again to stern, is another stiffening zone, beside the quite large grid across the keels. While it would be tempting to some to flatten the hull bottom to make more of a modern style sled with wider beam and sugar scoop stern, I believe that this would change completely the special interplay of strengthening curves which Brent has left in on purpose. While the use of the vee bottom does limit somewhat the hull shape to a moderate-displacement form (and there is nothing wrong with that for an offshore cruiser), it does spare us layers of complexity we would have to take on in order to attain other hull shapes. On my meagre pocket book, I'm willing to accept the hull form as it is and get out there and GO. I didn't want a huge yawning gulf between "Dream it" and the other two phases of a project "Build it" and "Go", I wanted to complete the craft and sail the piss out of my last remaining decades of life (YES I am about to turn 40 and I'm feeling weirded out by visions of impending old age/death/doom/gloom!). In every case, any other hull-building system I examined was going to cost me both time and money, and I knew full well that with a family to support that I had to choose either the family or the boat. With Brent's system, I can just squeak in the boat while still supporting my family, and I am going to do this well before the age most people term their "golden years". There certainly is something exciting about the possibilities of developing designs and building methods unfettered by the constraints of cost, but we have to agree that there for an idea to blossom among the average citizen (eg Me) it has to serve both utility and efficiency. This is why designers such as Phil Bolger are so popular, and this is also why the average Ford or GM V-8 gas guzzler engine has come to the end of it evolution -- useful, yes, efficient, no. By the way... my 1997 F150 is currently for sale if anyone out there is looking for an OPEC-feeding device, and I'd be happy to swap it across for 4500 lbs of lead ballast, a used mast, and 300 feet of galvanized high tensile wire for my rigging! If fuel prices keep climbing I may be forced to resort to a yuloh and use the engine space for something else. On my hull, when you examine the different zones of plate surface between the larger stiffening "members" such as deck-to-hull joint and chines, you can see that where stiffness and strength is needed, it is given. Indeed there are areas of the hull which do not need to be massively overbuilt, such as the extreme ends. The midships region is the real load-carrying area of the boat, both in terms of relatively static "loads" of food, water and fuel, but also from dynamic stress loads induced by pitching about under full sail, and lateral loads on the keels. This midships region gets its full complement of strengthening members (mine are four rows of half inch thick 3x3 angles placed laterally across the keels) which are put in after the hull shell is pulled together. The internal longitudinals used to be run right from bow to stern in the early Swain hulls, but no longer, as per Brent's instructions and reasoning. One would have thought it prudent, but I think he was right to leave out the extra bits and they are not needed when you see how tight the curves are in those areas (remember the egg). Shaving weight on a boat like this by not throwing in extra steel inside in the extreme ends is, in my opinion, the more prudent choice for getting this hull to attain reasonable performance. I figure that every pound/kilo of steel left out of the boat is one more pound/kilo of food/water/fuel you can carry, and as long as you are not compromising hull integrity and safety, why not? People take the much lauded Beneteau boats offshore, and those hulls don't even begin to approximate the strength of this one, yet I don't hear anyone complaining! I would say that in terms of aesthetics of course it is all in the eye of the beholder. I think Greg's system definitely allows for a lot of explorations in terms of variety of hull types and shapes, and for those that seek to replicate certain types of hulls in origami it is an excellent route to take, as funds permit. So if someone is seeking to replicate a favourite modern hull type in origami that doesn't fit within the narrower parameters of the Swain hull-type, they should definitely approach Greg for a solution because it looks to me that he has studied ways of strengthening those areas of longer flatter hull sections typical to modern boats. I think Brent's hull type takes care of this in the manner I already mentioned, and people who build to his designs knowingly accept the limitations or compromises if you want to call them that, in return for being able to fulfill a dream sustainably. I'm pretty content with the shape of my hull, and call me Bauhaus (form follows function), and certainly the Swain hull makes no pretense to being a gold plater, but rather a real working craft set to perform a specific task while attending to the safety and comfort of its master. I think there is a kind of peculiar beauty in her supreme functionality that I find oddly stirring when I step back to admire the latest work achieved, and the resulting shapes tend to grow on you. So to once again shamelessly plug my boatbuilding DVD's motto: "Dream it. Build it. Go!" Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8820|8765|2005-09-20 04:39:16|sae140|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > There is, of course, the gridwork of tranvserse members running laterally across the keels, > and that takes very good care of the central region of the hull where many forces are > acting (and yes, this IS transverse framing, but we still call the initial hull construction > "frameless" because the construction of the intial hull does not rely on transverse frames > to reach its final shape, but it does call for them where the keels interact with the hull). > Hi Alex I beg to differ. In my opinion the Origami method of construction is completely 'frame-less' in both senses of the mode of initial construction, AND the finished article. Longitudinals can be called 'strengtheners' or 'stiffeners', as they add both strength and rigidity to the structure - but they ain't "frames". There are transverse angle irons which add both strength and rigidity to the keel attachment points, but they ain't "frames" either. Longitudinals and the transverse angle irons can be described as having the same function as frames - but 'acting as a frame' and 'being a frame' are quite different things. To qualify as a "frame" (in the sense of a skeleton), it must pre-exist as a main or principal base upon which something is added to or built upon; the shape of which frame determines - at least in part - the shape of the resulting structure. To qualify as a "frame" (in the sense of a picture frame) it must - by itself - completely enclose a space in two dimensions. You cannot therefore reasonably talk about the existence of a 'partial' frame, as a structure only becomes a frame when it completely encloses. I would respectfully suggest that being proud of the unique frameless nature of Origami construction might serve it's promotion better than adopting a quasi-apologetic "well, there is a type of framing there, if you look carefully enough ..." approach. Regards, Colin| 8821|8809|2005-09-20 07:42:36|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Door Skins|SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > made mostly in Indonesia & the Philippines they are > thin plywood of 3 laminates. also known as Philippine > mahogony. they are 3/16" thick on average but often > referred to as 1/4". the Chinese call this "lawan" Ah, here in Indonesia it's called 'triplex' (pronounced triplek) and it is widely used, inappropriately, in housing construction. It delaminates if you breathe heavily on it, but the locals insist on making ceilings from it ... the problem is that they haven't yet mastered making waterproof roofs (and we get 3-7 m of rain here per annum) ... I've given up having the ceiling in one of my kids' room 'repaired' - it's trashed inside a week. Chris| 8822|8765|2005-09-20 11:05:17|NORMAN MOORE|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|Alex's description of stiffness increasing as the hull is enclosed is what you would expect of a monocoque frame, pioneered in race cars by the late Colin Chapman and Lotus. He created large boxes from riveted aluminum, and since the torsional stiffness goes up with the square of the diameter of any tube, these box frames were much stiffer in torsion than the previously used tube space frames. All the monocoque race cars of the 60's and 70's had difficulty dealing with point loads, which had to be distributed over the surface of the skin. Those designers often did what Brent is doing with the localized framing in the keel and mast areas. The carbon fiber stress skin chassis of todays race cars actually have solid aluminum bulkheads and solid carbon stiffeners added to the stress skin core to distribute point loads too. I'm not surprised that there is so much disagreement about the strength of origami hulls either. In 1973 when Porsche engineers were designing their Can-Am car they borrowed a year old McLaren from Rodger Penske, measured and tested it and then cut open the monocoque because they were sure that there must be a space frame inside it providing all the stiffness. They didn't believe sheets of aluminum and the shape could be the reason it was so stiff either. --- sae140 wrote: I beg to differ. In my opinion the Origami method of construction is completely 'frame-less' in both senses of the mode of initial construction, AND the finished article. Longitudinals can be called 'strengtheners' or 'stiffeners', as they add both strength and rigidity to the structure - but they ain't "frames". There are transverse angle irons which add both strength and rigidity to the keel attachment points, but they ain't "frames" either. Longitudinals and the transverse angle irons can be described as having the same function as frames - but 'acting as a frame' and 'being a frame' are quite different things. To qualify as a "frame" (in the sense of a skeleton), it must pre-exist as a main or principal base upon which something is added to or built upon; the shape of which frame determines - at least in part - the shape of the resulting structure. To qualify as a "frame" (in the sense of a picture frame) it must - by itself - completely enclose a space in two dimensions. You cannot therefore reasonably talk about the existence of a 'partial' frame, as a structure only becomes a frame when it completely encloses. I would respectfully suggest that being proud of the unique frameless nature of Origami construction might serve it's promotion better than adopting a quasi-apologetic "well, there is a type of framing there, if you look carefully enough ..." approach. Regards, Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Norm Moore 559-645-5314| 8823|8765|2005-09-20 11:05:17|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|My approach is a little bit different here: I can NOT see in which way an origami-assembled hull is so significantly different from any other steel hull - especially of the hard-chine type - that it would justify different requirements for scantling. The origami hull is in all respects like it's hard-chine twin, with darts instead of the chines, conversion is so easy BECAUSE there is very little difference forward and aft and NO difference amidships. You may argue that the compound curve at the end of the chines is stiffer than flatter fully chined sections would have been, but even that argument does not take in account that the "missing" chine fore and aft would have given additional stiffness that the origami hull lacks. ...it would really be splitting hairs to sort that out. In the central chined or "darted" section, there is NO difference AT ALL and that's the area where keels are fitted and corals are ploughed... So, you can build metal hulls chined or origamied, in all sorts of combinations of skin and frames: no structure at all, stringers only, frames only (don't like that), stringers and frames and everything else... you can use any of the above, and you can then compare these metal-boat scantlings and methods against each other, but this is not related to origami. Frameless is not typical origami and exists in hard- round- and radius-chine construction and _also_ in origami. There are different approaches to get the best combination of "keep the water out" and "make it stiff and strong", and to each his own..., but Origami is an _assembly_ and design method. Not a new type of Boat even if the result often looks "typical". Not a different construction type as far as resistance and static is concerned. And I can not see why there should be a specific "origami- scantling". How about a mind experiment: Take any origami design, continue the darts forward and aft to full length chines, then build it to tha same scantling as the origami boat the "old" way. In spite of the dramatically simplified building process, any finished origami-asssembled boat in the water is essentially identical, not faster or slower, not heavier or lighter and not weaker or stronger, to the same boat built with full length chines and with the _same scantling_! There may be some very localized areas where one or the other hull will have a slight advantage in impact resistance, water flow etc... but this would represent only a very, very tiny percentage that does not justify to treat origami-designed hulls different from other metal boats. Granted, it will look nicer ;-) Alex: in the 2 cases: 1) a plate is bend over a cuved stringer and then welded, and 2) a flat plate is welded on to a stringer and then bent together iwth it the second case may be stiffer, but may also will also produce built- in stresses between the stringer and the plate which I am not sure is desirable.. but in any case, for all our purpose I guess that the overall strength of both assemblies would be near equal and the end result will appear in both classic and origami assembly the much the same. But the second would of course produce a nicer result and would indeed be much more difficult to realize with a classic hard- or round-chine construction.. So, what I would propose it that we seperate the "frames & scantling for metalboats" thread from the "why Origami is so great and how to make it better" discussion ;-) What would be really new here is that sombody finally dares to do a thick-alloy-no-structure-at-all strongall-origami, now THAT would be interesting and we could stop talking about frames alltogether! ;-) Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8824|8765|2005-09-21 03:31:31|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > To qualify as a "frame" (in the sense of a picture frame) it > must - by itself - completely enclose a space in two dimensions. > You cannot therefore reasonably talk about the existence of > a 'partial' frame, as a structure only becomes a frame when it > completely encloses. > > I would respectfully suggest that being proud of the unique > frameless nature of Origami construction might serve it's > promotion better than adopting a quasi-apologetic "well, > there is a type of framing there, if you look carefully > enough ..." approach. Colin, this is not a semantics issue ;-) It is just a convention to call traverse structure "frames" ( with parts of them possibly beams, floors etc) and longitudinals "stringers". a half or partial frame is a desciption that seem understandable to me and I have no problems with that. More importantly, "frameless" or even sringerless is by no means "unique" to origami and therefore can not be used to define it. The definition is not in the type of structure that you add to it but in the way the shape is arrived at from a pattern. What you do not do in your posting, but what seems to appear all over this discussion is a sort of circular argument based on the definition of origami as frameless: if frameless means origami then a boat does not need frames because it is origami... So _I_ would then repectfully suggest that we would serve the origami method best if we would drop the "frameles" issue alltogether from the definition, rather describe origami as a method that does need neither jig (!!! this is much more specific!) nor frames for assembling hulls very fast and easy, and then be free to design the most efficient structure for the boat to build, based on either detailed engeneering or commonly accepted scantling rules. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8825|8825|2005-09-21 09:50:15|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: David Gerr vs Reality|Seer, You speak of Lawers, insurance industry and bankers in the same breath as you mention human beings and improving the conditions thereof..... I beg your pardon? What happened to the reality as mentioned in the sujbect line????? I thought we had all agreed to leave politics right T' hell out of everything on this site and keep it specific about ORIGAMI BOATS & boats in general. One of the designers/builders who is part of this group has decided to voice his opinion on the abilities and validty of the pronouncements of a public, published figure. It is entirely your option to either accept or reject his comment (s). Having already agreed to leave the filth out of this dialogue, what part of no politics and lets stick to the subject do you not understand? Lets move on. Shane From: "seeratlas" Subject: Re: David Gerr, vs reality --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > It is how we present our opinions that tell a lot about ourselves. > Everyday folks accross the land would like you and I to consider their plan or idea to be better than the competition. > In the Insurance and financial business we are not permitted to make any unsavoury remarks about the competition or the industry. To do so will get us reported and possibly loose our licence. you can add lawyers to that list... and if anyone has any doubts whatsoever as to why such 'rules' exist, I hope you never achieve a position of situational authority. Everyone talks about what is required to improve the human condition and everyone neglects to mention that what needs correcting most, is human nature, something unlikely to occur anytime soon. seer __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca| 8826|8826|2005-09-21 10:35:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|The fortunate Few|Amen. __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca| 8827|8825|2005-09-21 14:18:49|seeratlas|Re: David Gerr vs Reality|WHOA!!! Must have been some raw nerve there Shane... Reality? Well, lets see, I'm a member of the Bar of the United States Supreme Court, the Court of Claims, the US Tax Court, and more Federal Appeals and District Courts than I can currently remember. I've represented Insurance Companies, Banks, Mortgage Bankers, Brokers and Securities Firms (financial fraud is an area of expertise of mine) and in my time come across a lawyer or two...duh...so I feel safe in saying that I speak in those areas and to those groups with some familiarity as to the 'reality' in which they operate. Do you think its an accident that programs such as Marcus Welby were financed by the American Medical Association? duh? Dunno where you're coming from on this one but where I come from discussing lawyers, doctors, bankers, brokers, used car salesmen and even state department officials doesn't rise to the level of 'politics' (ok, well maybe as to certain state department officials, but having worked for and on behalf of several notable such persons, I have more than a passing familiarity with that group as well). Perhaps I misunderstood the tenor of Michael's posting. His comment that this was a boat forum not a "Ms. Manners" class indicated to me that he, like I, don't mind hearing straight unfiltered opinions, in fact, personally I much prefer them and pretty much could care less about the language they're couched in, sticks and stones grade school stuff and all that. Now when I read the article in question, it raised my eyebrows a time or two. It is not difficult to me to imagine that when Brent read it, coming from his experience of having designed and built and or assisted in the building of what, tens? maybe a hundred? of the very steel boats being derided..well I might very well have responded in pretty much the same way. At least there is no ambiguity to his opinon :) therefore I see no reason to hold his comments against him. Why do you? Lastly, my amplification of Michael's observation that certain groups like to limit criticism of themselves from within (i.e. from people that 'know') was just that. In this day and age, because someone is 'published' does not make them 'right' what it means is that some businessman somewhere decided that some audience out there would pay to read what that someone wrote. that's all. no politics to it. My amplification, again, was intended to point out that the motivations for someone publishing this or that opininon or point of view were often at least if not more important than what was actually written. I, myself consider this proposition to be unquestionable fact, resulting from the very nature of man I was referring to. If you understood my point, I do not understand the objection, if you did not, well, perhaps it was too subtle. Oh, and what is this 'filth' language all about? Are you stating that what you perceive as politics constitutes filth? or that you consider my posting(s) here "filth"? Hmmm, my language has certainly been within the bounds of the socially acceptable, so, is it my opinions you are referring too? If so, why? because they may on occasion contradict your own? So do you mean to say that any opinions on the state of things that contradicts your own, thereby constitute 'filth' ? or just mine? ;) hmm a bit extreme don't you think? In any event, you remain free to skip over any post(s) of mine you wish. I have no desire to compel you to suffer thru them, especially if they are going to generate such a vituperative response. Life is far to short, and the comforting allure of good boats and the sea far too attractive, to let such insignificant things as a paragraph or two here and there cause you undue stress. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Seer, > > You speak of Lawers, insurance industry and bankers in > the same breath as you mention human beings and > improving the conditions thereof..... > > I beg your pardon? > > What happened to the reality as mentioned in the > sujbect line????? > > I thought we had all agreed to leave politics right T' > hell out of everything on this site and keep it > specific about ORIGAMI BOATS & boats in general. > > One of the designers/builders who is part of this > group has decided to voice his opinion on the > abilities and validty of the pronouncements of a > public, published figure. It is entirely your option > to either accept or reject his comment (s). > > Having already agreed to leave the filth out of this > dialogue, what part of no politics and lets stick to > the subject do you not understand? > > Lets move on. > Shane > > > > From: "seeratlas" > Subject: Re: David Gerr, vs reality > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > wrote: > > It is how we present our opinions that tell a lot > about ourselves. > > Everyday folks accross the land would like you and I > to consider > their plan or idea to be better than the competition. > > In the Insurance and financial business we are not > permitted to make > any unsavoury remarks about the competition or the > industry. To do so > will get us reported and possibly loose our licence. > > > you can add lawyers to that list... > and if anyone has any doubts whatsoever as to why such > 'rules' exist, > I hope you never achieve a position of situational > authority. Everyone > talks about what is required to improve the human > condition and > everyone neglects to mention that what needs > correcting most, is human > nature, something unlikely to occur anytime soon. > > seer > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca | 8828|8828|2005-09-21 17:15:03|Gary|Victoria BC|Question regarding the Victoria area. I have an opportunity for some work down there and was wondering if anyone knows of a liveaboard dock or anchor out location (within reasonable car parking)anywere in the Victoria area from Sidey to Sooke. Thanks in advance... Gary| 8829|8828|2005-09-21 18:05:12|Alex Christie|Re: Victoria BC|Gary, Brentwood Bay marina once had liveaboard space, and Oak Bay has had liveaboard room in the harbour (free) but requires a stout anchoring system and possibly some anti-roll mechanism (say...twin keels? :-). Might be open to SE winds, but I saw a few die-hards living there when we used to live in Vic, and the made it right through winter. There was an old codger living right at the marina at Oak Bay on his antique fishboat, but I think he was the only exception. Mind you, for short term, maybe they'll allow that too. Put up a flag from Oz and they'll think you are a real offshore vet needing to tie up for a visit! Way up the gorge in Victoria there were liveaboards anchored when we used to live in Vic Harbour at the government wharf. The city was always trying to scare them away pretending it owned the foreshore under them, when in fact it was federal, and ruled by the Navigable Waters act (ie they had the legal right to anchor). Don't know what the current status is of the upper gorge at this time, or how far you can go with the mast up (I used to go in my skiff to visit friends so I don't recall now). There is a small set of docks just below Value Village in the Victoria (maybe called Swift Street docks?), and not much room but you never know. Pier One sometimes has room, and this is right in the harbour I think by the Coast Hotel. Expensive, I've heard ($300+/mo), but gated and secure and a gorgeous location. WestBay marina and Schooner cove (small single finger dock), which on other side of harbour, has or used to have liveaboard docking, and is worth checking out. Liveaboard surcharge added on at Westbay. The federal/Port of Victoria wharf, run forever by a kind of mafia known as the Featherby family, the head of which was a former garbage man who got the job on a handshake and a wink, has had a love-hate relationship with liveaboards forever and I don't know the current status of their war on liveaboards. This is where the floathomes are located, and fishboats, as well as regular liveaboard boats. They have surcharge on liveaboards, and last I heard they were not letting people come back once they left, so many people were forever dock-bound in their boats if they wanted to secure their right to stay. Quite oppressive. Sometimes this is the way of the landspeople to the sea people, where soil meets water, it seems... Anchoring out is often the only way to avoid these problems, and if you choose to anchor in a drying bay all the better because you'll have it to yourself, or yourself and Brent :-) or me eventually :-). Twin keels for drying bays of course! Alex On 21-Sep-05, at 2:14 PM, Gary wrote: > Question regarding the Victoria area.  I have an opportunity for some > work down there and was wondering if anyone knows of a liveaboard dock > or anchor out location (within reasonable car parking)anywere in the > Victoria area from Sidey to Sooke.  Thanks in advance... > > Gary > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. >   > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8830|8830|2005-09-21 18:25:06|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Fw: What size frames?|Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied to existing designs. He has some great quotes: "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, the plating is going to be pretty thick." "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small craft" boatdesign.net has this quote: "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement and are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking at the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling out the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with this style construction.) " Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the boats. Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't wished his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates the benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for all? Greg Elliott ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8831|8825|2005-09-21 19:36:50|Lipsey|Re: David Gerr vs Reality|Hey Seer, if you ever get to Nashville ,TN, call me and I'll buy you a beer! I, for one, always enjoy your input, insight, and stories of experience! Keep it up. David Lipsey ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr vs Reality WHOA!!! Must have been some raw nerve there Shane... Reality? Well, lets see, I'm a member of the Bar of the United States Supreme Court, the Court of Claims, the US Tax Court, and more Federal Appeals and District Courts than I can currently remember. I've represented Insurance Companies, Banks, Mortgage Bankers, Brokers and Securities Firms (financial fraud is an area of expertise of mine) and in my time come across a lawyer or two...duh...so I feel safe in saying that I speak in those areas and to those groups with some familiarity as to the 'reality' in which they operate. Do you think its an accident that programs such as Marcus Welby were financed by the American Medical Association? duh? Dunno where you're coming from on this one but where I come from discussing lawyers, doctors, bankers, brokers, used car salesmen and even state department officials doesn't rise to the level of 'politics' (ok, well maybe as to certain state department officials, but having worked for and on behalf of several notable such persons, I have more than a passing familiarity with that group as well). Perhaps I misunderstood the tenor of Michael's posting. His comment that this was a boat forum not a "Ms. Manners" class indicated to me that he, like I, don't mind hearing straight unfiltered opinions, in fact, personally I much prefer them and pretty much could care less about the language they're couched in, sticks and stones grade school stuff and all that. Now when I read the article in question, it raised my eyebrows a time or two. It is not difficult to me to imagine that when Brent read it, coming from his experience of having designed and built and or assisted in the building of what, tens? maybe a hundred? of the very steel boats being derided..well I might very well have responded in pretty much the same way. At least there is no ambiguity to his opinon :) therefore I see no reason to hold his comments against him. Why do you? Lastly, my amplification of Michael's observation that certain groups like to limit criticism of themselves from within (i.e. from people that 'know') was just that. In this day and age, because someone is 'published' does not make them 'right' what it means is that some businessman somewhere decided that some audience out there would pay to read what that someone wrote. that's all. no politics to it. My amplification, again, was intended to point out that the motivations for someone publishing this or that opininon or point of view were often at least if not more important than what was actually written. I, myself consider this proposition to be unquestionable fact, resulting from the very nature of man I was referring to. If you understood my point, I do not understand the objection, if you did not, well, perhaps it was too subtle. Oh, and what is this 'filth' language all about? Are you stating that what you perceive as politics constitutes filth? or that you consider my posting(s) here "filth"? Hmmm, my language has certainly been within the bounds of the socially acceptable, so, is it my opinions you are referring too? If so, why? because they may on occasion contradict your own? So do you mean to say that any opinions on the state of things that contradicts your own, thereby constitute 'filth' ? or just mine? ;) hmm a bit extreme don't you think? In any event, you remain free to skip over any post(s) of mine you wish. I have no desire to compel you to suffer thru them, especially if they are going to generate such a vituperative response. Life is far to short, and the comforting allure of good boats and the sea far too attractive, to let such insignificant things as a paragraph or two here and there cause you undue stress. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Seer, > > You speak of Lawers, insurance industry and bankers in > the same breath as you mention human beings and > improving the conditions thereof..... > > I beg your pardon? > > What happened to the reality as mentioned in the > sujbect line????? > > I thought we had all agreed to leave politics right T' > hell out of everything on this site and keep it > specific about ORIGAMI BOATS & boats in general. > > One of the designers/builders who is part of this > group has decided to voice his opinion on the > abilities and validty of the pronouncements of a > public, published figure. It is entirely your option > to either accept or reject his comment (s). > > Having already agreed to leave the filth out of this > dialogue, what part of no politics and lets stick to > the subject do you not understand? > > Lets move on. > Shane > > > > From: "seeratlas" > Subject: Re: David Gerr, vs reality > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > wrote: > > It is how we present our opinions that tell a lot > about ourselves. > > Everyday folks accross the land would like you and I > to consider > their plan or idea to be better than the competition. > > In the Insurance and financial business we are not > permitted to make > any unsavoury remarks about the competition or the > industry. To do so > will get us reported and possibly loose our licence. > > > you can add lawyers to that list... > and if anyone has any doubts whatsoever as to why such > 'rules' exist, > I hope you never achieve a position of situational > authority. Everyone > talks about what is required to improve the human > condition and > everyone neglects to mention that what needs > correcting most, is human > nature, something unlikely to occur anytime soon. > > seer > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8832|8832|2005-09-21 20:19:01|tazmannusa|small origami boat|Hello I have a question for anyone that might have tryed or has done a small say 15' to 18' daysailer or overnight sloop useing the origami method with 14 or 16gage steel. my question is would it be strong and light enough to enjoy sailing small lakes or would it be like putting mast and sails on cast iron bathtub? welding 16 gage is no problem for me Ive been doing it for years in contruction Thanks any advice on this subject would be apriciated Tom| 8833|8828|2005-09-21 23:10:58|Gary|Re: Victoria BC|Hi Alex... Thanks for the info. Looks like a majour re-con is in order here. Next time in Nanaimo look me up. I am currently docked at Moby Dick for the short time. BTW: Have some great video of bilge keeling it north coast. Still haunted by the mystery of that country a person could not truly explore in a lifetime. Thanks... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Gary, > > Brentwood Bay marina once had liveaboard space, and Oak Bay has had > liveaboard room in the harbour (free) but requires a stout anchoring > system and possibly some anti-roll mechanism (say...twin keels? :- ). > Might be open to SE winds, but I saw a few die-hards living there when > we used to live in Vic, and the made it right through winter. There > was an old codger living right at the marina at Oak Bay on his antique > fishboat, but I think he was the only exception. Mind you, for short > term, maybe they'll allow that too. Put up a flag from Oz and they'll > think you are a real offshore vet needing to tie up for a visit! > > Way up the gorge in Victoria there were liveaboards anchored when we > used to live in Vic Harbour at the government wharf. The city was > always trying to scare them away pretending it owned the foreshore > under them, when in fact it was federal, and ruled by the Navigable > Waters act (ie they had the legal right to anchor). Don't know what > the current status is of the upper gorge at this time, or how far you > can go with the mast up (I used to go in my skiff to visit friends so I > don't recall now). There is a small set of docks just below Value > Village in the Victoria (maybe called Swift Street docks?), and not > much room but you never know. > > Pier One sometimes has room, and this is right in the harbour I think > by the Coast Hotel. Expensive, I've heard ($300+/mo), but gated and > secure and a gorgeous location. > > WestBay marina and Schooner cove (small single finger dock), which on > other side of harbour, has or used to have liveaboard docking, and is > worth checking out. Liveaboard surcharge added on at Westbay. > > The federal/Port of Victoria wharf, run forever by a kind of mafia > known as the Featherby family, the head of which was a former garbage > man who got the job on a handshake and a wink, has had a love-hate > relationship with liveaboards forever and I don't know the current > status of their war on liveaboards. This is where the floathomes are > located, and fishboats, as well as regular liveaboard boats. They have > surcharge on liveaboards, and last I heard they were not letting people > come back once they left, so many people were forever dock-bound in > their boats if they wanted to secure their right to stay. Quite > oppressive. Sometimes this is the way of the landspeople to the sea > people, where soil meets water, it seems... > > Anchoring out is often the only way to avoid these problems, and if you > choose to anchor in a drying bay all the better because you'll have it > to yourself, or yourself and Brent :-) or me eventually :-). Twin > keels for drying bays of course! > > Alex > > > On 21-Sep-05, at 2:14 PM, Gary wrote: > > > Question regarding the Victoria area.  I have an opportunity for some > > work down there and was wondering if anyone knows of a liveaboard dock > > or anchor out location (within reasonable car parking)anywere in the > > Victoria area from Sidey to Sooke.  Thanks in advance... > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > >   > > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   > > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8834|8828|2005-09-22 00:21:22|Alex Christie|Re: Victoria BC|Hi Gary, I'll be sure to look you up next time I am down that way. I'd LOVE to see some video you have. I'm starting to map out ideas of footage I want to take for the "Into to world of origamiboats" video so this would be quite inspiring. That north coast is calling to me, has for years -- so close yet so far! Alex On 21-Sep-05, at 8:10 PM, Gary wrote: > Hi Alex... Thanks for the info.  Looks like a majour re-con is in > order here.  Next time in Nanaimo look me up.  I am currently docked > at Moby Dick for the short time. > > BTW:  Have some great video of bilge keeling it north coast.  Still > haunted by the mystery of that country a person could not truly > explore in a lifetime.  > > Thanks... Gary > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8835|8830|2005-09-22 00:51:10|jericoera|Re: Fw: Trevor Bolt? trawler.ca|Trevor had some other great quotes too like when I phoned and asked in my ignorance if he thought as a designer that bilge keels could fall off without adequate transverse framing. I was told straight away unless I was buying a plan from him that he was not interested in speaking to me and that he made considerable money and that his time was very valuable. I learned a lot about his greatness and little about boats. It felt very good to be treated like that (not!!) although he warmed up when I said I was prepared to spend some money to get a boat. Does that make me numbskull #2? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied to existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, the plating is going to be pretty thick." > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small craft" > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement and are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking at the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling out the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with this style construction.) " > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the boats. > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't wished his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates the benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for all? > > Greg Elliott > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8836|8830|2005-09-22 03:20:42|Gerd|Origami Scantling|We should remember that scantling rules do not calculate stresses and loads, and as such will & can not prove any of us right or wrong. Scantling rules (Gerr, or ABS or other national rules or whatever) simply say that if you want to build a boat like "A" from a material "B" using method "C" you better use this or that scantling. Scantling rules are guidelines, rules of thumb, based on common empirc and calculated data, and actually all designers and yards work like that, nobody does the full set of original calculations except for the occasional detail, like a new type of rudder or so. Only extreme projects like high end racing yachts can afford to do that anyway. It would be extremely time consuming to do this for a single boat, and would be valid only for this one boat and would need to be redone for your next design. Greg likes to play with this, and knows that he could simply not afford to do this for each design, right? ;-) What I like about Gerr's approach is that the initial definition of the boat is really very detailed, much more than just that basic length and displacement, and takes in account a lot of other parameters to really come as close as possible to defining the particular type of boat you will be working on. This results is a Scantling number which will then be inserted into the formalas for calculation of indiviual areas and parts. His rules cover many variations and materials, but of course would never cover ALL cases. To my knowledge there is currently no scantling rule or standard that would take in account the particuler case of the origami shape as we design it. Until there is we can (and in some countries MUST) apply common/required scantling standards for steel hulls. When buying a plan from a designer I would expect to have either confirmation that the design and scantling is conform to standard "x" and/or get a clear written declaration that the design does not comply and that it is up to me to verify compliance. BTW: At this moment there is a big discussion going on in Europe: A Croation charter company bought a number of Bavarias and one of them, brand new, lost their keel sailing, with loss of boat and life... http://www.yacht.de/yo/yo_news/powerslave,id,3989,highlight,bavaria% 20kiel,nodeid,50.html the charter guys published then underwater pictures of all the other new yachts they had bought yachts http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news/news11.php and that does not look nice The Yard claims that the boat was build to standards and now it's up to courts and experts. Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied to existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, the plating is going to be pretty thick." > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small craft" > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement and are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking at the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling out the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with this style construction.) " > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the boats. > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't wished his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates the benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for all? > > Greg Elliott > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8837|8765|2005-09-22 05:59:30|sae140|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|Hi Gerd Check the group description: "Origamiboats : Frameless steel and aluminum yachts" "Frameless" is thus being recognised as the principal distinguishing characteristic of this method of boat construction - and you want to drop the descriptor "frameless" from it's definition ? It's being frameless that makes these hulls unique amongst similar sized metal boats. That's what a salesman would call a Unique Selling Point (USP), or if like me you'd rather not be associated with salesmen - we could call this a Unique Promotional Characteristic (UPC). If you have such a unique promotional characteristic, then it seems to me you can adopt 2 different strategies - one is to flaunt it: a real in-yer-face honest-to- goodness pride in what you have. This approach will either result in failure - if it doesn't measure up - or in people subscribing to this system *precisely because* of it's merits. The other strategy is to adopt a kind of almost apologetic "it's almost as good as the real thing" approach - and I personally think that adopting this approach would be a huge mistake. There is at least one website where the author compares different types of hull construction, and where frameless construction (Origami being implied) is claimed to have 'hidden framing' (my words). To me, this smells strongly of "Relax guys - they're almost as good as ours". What I detect when reading this stuff are people who are afraid of this radical new approach - precisely because it threatens their traditional way of doing things. I don't claim to know much about scanting rules, but as nothing has ever failed on a Swain hull (under normal conditions), and afaik they have never been dented in collisions with immovable objects - maybe, just maybe the hulls are over-built and the scantling rules could be relaxed a little - although not on my boat !! Perhaps such scantling rules no longer apply with stressed skins or with monocoque structures ? Perhaps we are indeed entering a new era of boat construction techniques, where a new set of rules apply. > Colin, this is not a semantics issue ;-) It is just a convention to call traverse structure "frames" ( with parts of them possibly beams, floors etc) and longitudinals "stringers". a half or partial frame is a desciption that seem understandable to me and I have no problems with that. Maybe you don't - but what happens inside your own head is private to you. I'm more concerned about communication between many people where mutually-agreed terminology is highly desirable if misunderstandings are to be avoided. I don't see a desire for clarity as being purely a semantics issue. To assert that frames exist where frames (in the generally accepted sense of the term) cannot readily be identified as discrete entities, is misleading at best. >More importantly, "frameless" or even sringerless is by no means "unique" to origami and therefore can not be used to define it. What ? A descriptor within a definition doesn't need to be unique - if it was then nothing would be gained by using it in a definition. It would be the same thing ! You'd just be swopping words around. However I would certainly agree that Origami is *more* that simply frameless, and requires more than the word 'frameless' in any definition or description - which perhaps could include 'stressed folded sheet' ? > The definition is not in the type of structure that you add to it but in the way the shape is arrived at from a pattern. Yes - that's right - it's the pattern that determines the shape during construction. So it's frameless construction. Where's the disagreement here ? What I am also saying is that (imho), the hull is *also* a frameless entity as a finished product. > What you do not do in your posting, but what seems to appear all over this discussion is a sort of circular argument based on the definition of origami as frameless: if frameless means origami then a boat does not need frames because it is origami... No, I would never say that. Origami is (imho) frameless, but these words are not synonymous. Frameless can take many forms - stitch-and-glue for example, which (afaik) does not employ compound curves and where any stressing of the skin is coincidental and not an essential or desirable design feature. > So _I_ would then repectfully suggest that we would serve the origami method best if we would drop the "frameles" issue alltogether from the definition, rather describe origami as a method that does need neither jig (!!! this is much more specific!) nor frames for assembling hulls very fast and easy, and then be free to design the most efficient structure for the boat to build, based on either detailed engeneering or commonly accepted scantling rules. Well - I don't have any religious zeal about this - for all I care it can be called the ACME-WIDGET technique - but I think the Origami community will be missing an important opportunity if the frameless aspect of the design, which singles these boats out from others of broadly similar appearance, is not emphasised. They are "better than" - *because* they are frameless. And if you've got it - flaunt it. Colin| 8838|8765|2005-09-22 06:56:07|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|Colin, I have nothing to sell and it's not about sales pitches... It's about physics. I do not think that the fact that a yahoo group happens have "framelees" in it's description has anything to do with scantling rules, or that it is a reason to build a boat with or without frames. And no, it is not being framesless that makes these boats unique because dozens of other designs in hard, round and radius chine are frameless as well. I also don't care much about the "a real in-yer-face honest-to- goodness pride in what you have" approaches. I would feel very stupid. I have nothing to flog, nothing to hide, no missionary feelings about any particular construction methods. And just in case I have not made myself clear yet, I have nothing against "frameless" origami either if properly designed. And I have absolutely no doubt that Brents boats are strong good proven boats, even if on some details I might have a different approach. I believe there are excellent boats in all materials and built in many different ways. I try to have an open mind. I care about research, I believe that life outside of frameless yahoo groups is not completely without interest to us and I care about boats being strong and easy to build. And if you tell me that a certain origami design does not need frames because other elements have been dimensioned to an accepted standard that would allow you to dispense with them, it's fine with me. As I said, make the skin even thicker and get rid of stringers as well (Strongall) and it would still be Origami. But I do have serious doubts if I hear the argument that a boat does not need frames simply BECAUSE it is origami, as if origami would magically dispense with the need to care about commonly accepted scantling rules and standards practised by generations over tens of thousands of boats, and no religious, emotional or anecdotic argument will make me feel better about that. I just don't "believe" it. Gerd| 8839|8839|2005-09-22 07:00:20|Denis Buggy|english wheel|hello all .has anybody made their own english wheel ( used to give compound curves in metal sheeting) i can use cheap and high quality steel wheels used for moving machinery , however i will need to power a wheel to rock the sheet between wheels in order to get the curve required and hand pressure only works for bodyshop use 1 mm thick , for 5 mm it needs power . any advice re doming steel plate. regards denis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8840|8840|2005-09-22 08:20:04|Gerd|Beginning an origami definition...|maybe we should try to define and describe origami, rather than mix it up with framing issues ;-) so here is my go at it, feel free to add and modify to your heats content: "Origami is a construction method for boat hulls from flat panel by cutting darts at strategic places and joining the seams to transform the flat panels into a 3-dimensional hullshape without prior forming or shaping of the plating. This can usually be archieved without the use of jigs or any other internal or external structure for assembly of the hulls skin. The resulting shape is structurally reinforced after assembly as specified by the designer. " I think it helps not to use the words metal, steel, alloy, frame and a couple of others.. ;-) This would INCLUDE boats build with different dart-based patterns or material (including plywood designs from Seggers for example). It would EXCLUDE all full-length hardchine hulls, whatever their structure, even v.d.stadt basket mould, because it's not based on the dart-priciple. This would EXCLUDE all round chine hulls because of absence of darts as well as because it requires pre-forming of material, Would also exclude radius chine because the chine panels have to be pre-rolled. This would avoid having to define origami by the type of structure added to the hull and thus avoid having to exclude boats built from typical origami patterns because of their type of internal structure. Finally it would allow us to take the scantling discussion where it belongs, into "scantling for metalboats" Any comments? Gerd| 8841|8839|2005-09-22 09:13:42|tazmannusa|Re: english wheel|Hello Denis I have not built one myself but at one time I was researching to do the same thing the problem is it takes a lot of pressure to bend the dome and it would not be feasable or safe to do it with english wheel. press brakes with the rite dies are a lot better for that thickness of metal Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Denis Buggy" wrote: > hello all .has anybody made their own english wheel ( used to give compound curves in metal sheeting) i can use cheap and high quality steel wheels used for moving machinery , however i will need to power a wheel to rock the sheet between wheels in order to get the curve required and hand pressure only works for bodyshop use 1 mm thick , for 5 mm it needs power . any advice re doming steel plate. regards denis > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8842|8842|2005-09-22 12:21:58|kingsknight4life|aihead question for Brent|Brent Have you replaced your head in the boa with the "airhead" or is this just a trial? Rowland| 8843|8765|2005-09-22 16:40:53|Alex Christie|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|It sounds like we need to have an Origami boatbuilding conference at some transatlatic location somewhere soon. What neutral city shall we host it in? I'll sail my 36 footer there for it, and we can all get together face to face! I am voting for Godthab Greenland (Nuuk), smack dab in the middle of the Atlantic (kind of), but the Azores might be alot warmer... I definitely think it is always worth injecting new ideas into the pot, and the beauty of this system is that it does allow flexibility in how you build your boat. I have seen that in most boats the owners always put their own stamp on it, and everyone adds or subtracts from the ideas offered in order to arrive at the end result they are most comfortable with -- not something unique to the origami-style boats! Alex| 8844|8765|2005-09-22 16:47:22|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > ... I am voting for Godthab Greenland (Nuuk), greenland sounds great - make it the only distribution point for the Official Certified Origami Label. If you don't make it there, you don't get it ;-)| 8845|8840|2005-09-22 20:52:45|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|I personaly think of origami in the sence of the Swan as being self framing in a nontraditional sence. With the hull shape and the way the deck and cabin all go togather by shape alone it provides the function of frames. So it fould be self framing for me and Origami would be as you said with the darts. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > maybe we should try to define and describe origami, rather than mix > it up with framing issues ;-) > > so here is my go at it, feel free to add and modify to your heats > content: > > "Origami is a construction method for boat hulls from flat panel by > cutting darts at strategic places and joining the seams to transform > the flat panels into a 3-dimensional hullshape without prior forming > or shaping of the plating. This can usually be archieved without the > use of jigs or any other internal or external structure for assembly > of the hulls skin. The resulting shape is structurally reinforced > after assembly as specified by the designer. " > > I think it helps not to use the words metal, steel, alloy, frame and > a couple of others.. ;-) > > This would INCLUDE boats build with different dart-based patterns or > material (including plywood designs from Seggers for example). > > It would EXCLUDE all full-length hardchine hulls, whatever their > structure, even v.d.stadt basket mould, because it's not based on > the dart-priciple. > > This would EXCLUDE all round chine hulls because of absence of darts > as well as because it requires pre-forming of material, Would also > exclude radius chine because the chine panels have to be pre-rolled. > > This would avoid having to define origami by the type of structure > added to the hull and thus avoid having to exclude boats built from > typical origami patterns because of their type of internal structure. > > Finally it would allow us to take the scantling discussion where it > belongs, into "scantling for metalboats" > > > Any comments? > > Gerd | 8846|8767|2005-09-22 20:53:39|jim dorey|Re: Lessons from an airhead( toilet)|On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:14:26 -0300, brentswain38 wrote: > I recently heard on CBC radio that the Airhead type of toilet seat , > designed to separate solids from liquids, was designed by NASA for > spacecraft.So much for patent claims. > They even put video cameras under the seat to enable precise > positioning. Geez , are those guys up there that desperate for > entertainment? > The minimum clearance between the top of the seat and the highest > point in the bowl seem about 3 inches minimum. > Brent afaik if it was designed by nasa then there's a bit of a boon for a seat maker, nasa and other government agencies are not allowed to own patents, i think copyrights as well, but that means anybody can legally sell a knockoff. if anybody knows somebody that has the equipment, it might be a good idea for them to start selling cheap versions for boaters that don't keep spare diamond encrusted toothbrushes in every residence and their fleet of limo's. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8847|8847|2005-09-22 22:14:12|John Waalkes|Received video|Alex, Video arrived Tue PM. Didn't open until this afternoon. impressive cover, looking forward to watching, seems like this is busy time of year. Keep me on the list for future ones. Thanks for the time & effort in bringing these to the masses. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8848|8765|2005-09-23 04:26:55|sae140|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|"I have nothing to sell and it's not about sales pitches... It's about physics." "I have nothing to flog, nothing to hide, no missionary feelings about any particular construction methods." With the greatest respect Gerd, this is not about 'you', and it's not about 'me' either - my understanding (which could be wrong, of course) is that one of the functions of this yahoo group is to help *promote* this method of hull construction - which is why I prefer the notion of a unique promotional point rather than a unique selling point ! I have a neighbour who planned to build a boat for his retirement, and duly bought a set of 'conventional' boat- building plans from Bruce Roberts. Ten years later, the plans are collecting dust in his loft. I asked why, and his reply was that there was simply too much work involved. Whether this work-assessment is accurate or not is actually not important, as there was a *perception* that there was too much work involved, and the guy was psychologically defeated before he had even bought any steel. I showed him a couple of card models of Origami hulls, and his eyes lit up. I lent him my copy of Brent's book. He now has renewed enthusiasm, as his perception of the work involved has now changed. Again, it doesn't much matter whether his assessment is accurate or not - his *perception* has changed; he now sees building his own boat as being a realistic project. But I was careful not to 'sell' him this idea - it simply sold itself. I mentioned the current dispute re: framing and his response was "but the hull doesn't have any frames - that's the whole point of it". I commented that the skin had stringers, and that the keels had reinforcing bars, and that these could be construed as being frames. "Naw" was his reply, "they're not frames." And so, for this one person at least, the frameless nature of an Origami hull was to be an important choice criterion - it was the unique promotional point I mentioned - in action. If you're going to create a definition for Origami construction - then it needs to be reasonably short - say less than a dozen words ? For the purposes of this post I just phoned my neighbour and asked how he would define an Origami boat. "One having a frameless steel hull" was his reply. So that's the *perception* he has taken away with him, accurate or not. Colin| 8849|8765|2005-09-23 07:06:20|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > For the purposes of this post I just phoned my neighbour and > asked how he would define an Origami boat. "One having a > frameless steel hull" was his reply. Well, in that case, MANY other boats, like some of Dudley Dix's radius chine boats or thick skinned Strongall hulls or some basket mould hulls (and I believe even some roberts??) would be origami too, whereas a boat built from one of Brents patterns would loose it's "origaminess" if the builder would add frames, and my own Yago would not apply either because it it designed with frames in spite of being pulled together from a pattern. Sorry, but I don't agree with your neighbour. For me it's the "use of darts to obtain a hull shape from flat panels" .. count the words ;-) ...not the material or the structure. Have a look at http://www.sail-ho.pl/article.php?sid=1591, unfortunately I don't understand the language, but any boat build from any of these patterns in any material would fit into my my understanding of origami. Gerd the Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 8850|8765|2005-09-23 07:32:55|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|Gerd, I think your definition of Origami is just about right. The main advantage must be the short building time of the hull, together with the feature of getting a smoth hull at the same time. Reinforcement of the hull where it is needed, like keel, skeg and similar spots are just a matter of calculating the proper dimensions of frames and stiffeners according to the plating thickness. Your Polish link shows exactly what it is about. I to can only look at the pictures but perhaps someone in the group can give us some more info of wich material the boats are built of. Interesting to see that the origami ideas poop up in different places of the world! Regards, Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]För Gerd Skickat: den 23 september 2005 13:06 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > For the purposes of this post I just phoned my neighbour and > asked how he would define an Origami boat. "One having a > frameless steel hull" was his reply. Well, in that case, MANY other boats, like some of Dudley Dix's radius chine boats or thick skinned Strongall hulls or some basket mould hulls (and I believe even some roberts??) would be origami too, whereas a boat built from one of Brents patterns would loose it's "origaminess" if the builder would add frames, and my own Yago would not apply either because it it designed with frames in spite of being pulled together from a pattern. Sorry, but I don't agree with your neighbour. For me it's the "use of darts to obtain a hull shape from flat panels" .. count the words ;-) ...not the material or the structure. Have a look at http://www.sail-ho.pl/article.php?sid=1591, unfortunately I don't understand the language, but any boat build from any of these patterns in any material would fit into my my understanding of origami. Gerd the Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 8851|8765|2005-09-23 10:18:11|khooper_fboats|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Well, in that case, MANY other boats, like some of Dudley Dix's > radius chine boats or thick skinned Strongall hulls or some basket > mould hulls (and I believe even some roberts??) would be origami > too Could you elucidate, which of the Dix boats are frameless or nearly frameless?| 8852|8840|2005-09-23 11:11:38|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|Gerd wrote: > maybe we should try to define and describe origami, rather than mix > it up with framing issues ;-) > > so here is my go at it, feel free to add and modify to your heats > content: > > "Origami is a construction method for add: 'making' or a similar word here. > boat hulls from flat panel 'panels' >by > cutting darts at strategic places and joining the seams to transform > the flat panels into a 3-dimensional hullshape without prior forming > or shaping of the plating. hmmm, so what do you call the cutting and welding of the plates beforehand ie on the ground, if not forming or shaping? (Semantics, I know, but that's the point of a definition :) ) > This can usually be archieved without the > use of jigs or any other internal or external structure for assembly > of the hulls skin. The resulting shape is structurally reinforced > after assembly as specified by the designer. " Good. > I think it helps not to use the words metal, steel, alloy, frame and > a couple of others.. ;-) Very true :) > ... > This would avoid having to define origami by the type of structure > added to the hull and thus avoid having to exclude boats built from > typical origami patterns because of their type of internal structure. Excellent. > > Finally it would allow us to take the scantling discussion where it > belongs, into "scantling for metalboats" > Yep > > Any comments? Nope, none :) Chris| 8853|8840|2005-09-23 11:39:31|Bruce Hallman|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|> This would INCLUDE boats build with different dart-based patterns I have experimented, for fun, building boat models based on this principle and found that if I make the 'darts' so deep that I end up with unconnected 'crescent shaped' segments; I can make more efficient use of materials because the crescent shapes nestle better on the stock. So; are very deep 'darts', so deep that the segments are unconnected still considered 'origami'?| 8854|8765|2005-09-23 13:00:45|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" > Could you elucidate, which of the Dix boats are frameless or nearly > frameless? I have not checked that site for some time, but if I remember right he has some radius chine design "Houte Bay", a 30 footer which - I believe - is frameless. to be honest, I have never paid too much attention to that, because I personally do not condider this as special a design factor as it may seem. a hull needs traverse stiffness, and that can come from many diferen things, like thicker skin, or bulheads etc. Gerd| 8855|8840|2005-09-23 13:04:15|Gerd|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > hmmm, so what do you call the cutting and welding of the plates > beforehand ie on the ground, if not forming or shaping? (Semantics, I know, but that's the point of a definition :) ) Well, you know, my english ;-) what I had in mind is that sheets / plates are not pre-formed, permanently shaped like you would do in olive-rolling, hammering etc. the origami pattern is flat and developable, and would probably unfold to a flat pattern again if I were to cut open the dart welds. Not that i want to try that on my boat ;-) gerd| 8856|8840|2005-09-23 13:11:38|Gerd|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman > So; are very deep 'darts', so deep that the segments are > unconnected still considered 'origami'? Good point. If you look at Van de Stadts basket mould hulls, you find that the hull also is shaped without real frames (the basket is just supposed to help asemlby and roughly adjust the shape) by simply joining pre-cut hardchine panels. Somehow I would not consider this origami, because it lack the efect of the dart where the developable shapes switch direction and under tension produce more or less compound shapes. so, in the extreme, if you cut your darts longer and longer, you come out the other end and have a hard-chine hull ;-) My darts for example are longer than the ones on Brents hulls, and Greg's hull have more darts and even between the chines look much rounder than true chined sections(possibly due to other mechanic qualities of the alloy). I think that future work will show that hulls can get much fairer, have less knuckels and and can produce many diufferent shapes by inventing new dart patterns and also by handling the bending sequence and directions differently. Gerd| 8857|8765|2005-09-23 13:25:14|Alex Christie|origami boatbuilding definition|Ok, here is how I define my boat's building system: "A jigless metal boat construction system which enables one to enjoy sailing before the cessation of life renders said boat construction efforts moot." I wouldn't purposefully set out to offend anyone who likes Bruce Roberts designs (and I did look at his designs before I met Brent and decided to build using his system), but nearly every amateur project I've seen languishing unfinished in backyards and boatyards for 10 years+ has his name on it, with Foulkes coming in a near second and third place spread evenly among other designers. Professional yards building to these same designs as these amateurs can use their experience, skills and equipment to overcome the technical hurdles inherent in designs which have not been streamlined for easy building. Amateurs continually fall into the tragic trap of imagining they will easily build the finished boat in the photos of Robert's catalogues, then end up bogging down, sometimes (I have seen this too) at just the frame stage, with a few plates tacked on! A sad waste of perfectly good steel, and a blowing of those precious 10 years of time and money from about age 40 to age 50, or 50 to 60 when a hull can come together, be finished, then used for another ten or so before "cessation of life" or decrepitude makes us swallow the anchor (this did not stop Moitessier or Tristan Jones, however). Alex| 8858|8765|2005-09-23 14:14:02|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|An automated translation: Contrary to appearance (pretences), it are not tied torturing with atrocities sklejki. There is technology relying on proper cut and tightening so sklejki, that reliable shell emerges, firm and be construction in . There is ideal idea on structure small " " Tortured plywood plywadelek, and also completely big yachts, especially in change " tortured steel < constant (solid) > < become > < stand > ". In order to acquaint (familiarize) with article of krzysztof of monk, review of idea, it is possible to make that with (from) several sheets small cost sklejki, as build motorboat, mini-DZte if (or) yacht of class sails 500 they let's click - " more ". another translation: In spite pozorom, torturing of plywood it does not bind with cruelty. Is this technology relying on corresponding indent to and the trickery of plywood so that arises resistant crust, prim and disposable oneself in itself with construction. "Tortured plywood" it is ideal idea on formation little plywadelek, of but and quite pretty big yachts, chiefly in change "tortured they stood". In order to acquaint with the article of Krzysztofa Mnicha, with the review of ideas, what one can with not large cost do from a few sheets of plywood, how to build motor boat, mini-dzte if the yacht of class Sails 500 - click "more". Gerd's definition works for me. Frameless assembly, not frameless boats. Framing serves two purposes in conventional construction. It provides a jig for assembling the shell, and to reduce the thickness of plating required for the finished boat. In Origami you do not need framing to construct the boat. You don't need it in the finished boat either, so long as the plating is thick enough. If you want to reduce the plating thickness, and thus the weight of the boat, you can add framing in place of plate thickness. In origami this framing is mostly longitudinal, typically angle bars welded on to the skin prior to the fold. Transverse framing is used in origami as well, typically in way of the keels and skegs. Technically this "framing" is composed of webs, flanges, floors, tank ends and lids, tank baffles, mast girders, etc. None of this is "ring frames", but it is still framing. Origami boats are "Ring Frameless" or "Frameless Assembly", but they are not "Frameless Boats", except in those boats with thick plating, or with light scantlings. Why not make origami boats "frameless boats"? Because it limits what you can do in origami, especially in steel, where the weight of the steel is a stability issue in small boats. If you accept that steel no longer needs a corrosion allowance because of better paint systems, then it is possible to build steel boats significantly lighter through the addition of appropriate framing to origami, without reducing strength. For example: Reports of origami boats having problems with hobby horsing and knockdowns are not uncommon, which is an indication of weight problems. Most steel boats use thinner hull plating on the topsides to reduce weight. Origami boats do not have this advantage. Also, many steel boats have full length longitudinals along the bottom plating. Many origami boats do not have this. These origami boats need to use thicker plating overall if they want to maintain the same hull strength below the waterline as conventional steel boats. Because this weight extends into the topside and ends, this causes hobby horsing and knockdown problems, as it raises the center of gravity and increases the moments towards the ends. These boats would likely benefit from the use of thinner plating and increased longitudinals below the waterline, as they would maintain the same strength and puncture resistance with significantly less weight and moments. The thinner plating overall coupled with increased longitudinals on the bottom plating would lighten the boat and lower the center of gravity, concentrating the weight amidships because of the keel, very likely reducing hobby horsing and knockdowns, improving performance and increasing capacity. This is why origami should not be though of as "frameless boats", rather "frameless assembly" - because origami boats can be built to perform better by using framing to reduce weight. Rather than carrying weight around as steel above the waterline and towards the ends, the weight can go into longitudinals below the waterline, and increased capacity for fuel, water and stores, or reducing the amount of ballast required. Thinner steel and reduced ballast can further reduce costs. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leif Thomsen" To: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:32 AM Subject: SV: [origamiboats] Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect > Gerd, > > I think your definition of Origami is just about right. The main advantage > must be the short building time of the hull, together with the feature of > getting a smoth hull at the same time. Reinforcement of the hull where it > is > needed, like keel, skeg and similar spots are just a matter of calculating > the proper dimensions of frames and stiffeners according to the plating > thickness. Your Polish link shows exactly what it is about. I to can only > look at the pictures but perhaps someone in the group can give us some > more > info of wich material the boats are built of. Interesting to see that the > origami ideas poop up in different places of the world! > > Regards, > Leif > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]För Gerd > Skickat: den 23 september 2005 13:06 > Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Ämne: [origamiboats] Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > For the purposes of this post I just phoned my neighbour and >> asked how he would define an Origami boat. "One having a >> frameless steel hull" was his reply. > > Well, in that case, MANY other boats, like some of Dudley Dix's > radius chine boats or thick skinned Strongall hulls or some basket > mould hulls (and I believe even some roberts??) would be origami > too, whereas a boat built from one of Brents patterns would loose > it's "origaminess" if the builder would add frames, and my own Yago > would not apply either because it it designed with frames in spite > of being pulled together from a pattern. > > Sorry, but I don't agree with your neighbour. > > For me it's the "use of darts to obtain a hull shape from flat > panels" .. count the words ;-) ...not the material or the > structure. > > Have a look at http://www.sail-ho.pl/article.php?sid=1591, > unfortunately I don't understand the language, but any boat build > from any of these patterns in any material would fit into my my > understanding of origami. > > > > Gerd > > the Yago project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8859|8765|2005-09-23 14:34:44|Gerd|Re: origami boatbuilding definition|Alex, I hope you are not implying that I am too old for this stuff??! But seriously, your definition is maybe not very technical but it works for me as well. To be honest, we would have to admit that the real advantage in time & budget comes from adopting a clear no-nonsense approach for the entire projecgt as well as any future cruising plans, as strongly promoted by Greg. I guess if you really want to, you can also spend many years and a lot of energy fitting out the hull that you built so easily and fast in the first place. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Ok, here is how I define my boat's building system: > > "A jigless metal boat construction system which enables one to enjoy > sailing before the cessation of life renders said boat construction > efforts moot." > > I wouldn't purposefully set out to offend anyone who likes Bruce > Roberts designs (and I did look at his designs before I met Brent and > decided to build using his system), but nearly every amateur project > I've seen languishing unfinished in backyards and boatyards for 10 > years+ has his name on it, with Foulkes coming in a near second and > third place spread evenly among other designers. Professional yards > building to these same designs as these amateurs can use their > experience, skills and equipment to overcome the technical hurdles > inherent in designs which have not been streamlined for easy building. > Amateurs continually fall into the tragic trap of imagining they will > easily build the finished boat in the photos of Robert's catalogues, > then end up bogging down, sometimes (I have seen this too) at just the > frame stage, with a few plates tacked on! A sad waste of perfectly > good steel, and a blowing of those precious 10 years of time and money > from about age 40 to age 50, or 50 to 60 when a hull can come together, > be finished, then used for another ten or so before "cessation of life" > or decrepitude makes us swallow the anchor (this did not stop > Moitessier or Tristan Jones, however). > > Alex | 8860|8765|2005-09-23 14:41:50|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|Thanks for the translation, Greg, it GREAT! ;-) > Most steel boats use thinner hull plating on the topsides to reduce weight. Origami boats do not have this advantage. that is actually one of the few real disadvantages of origami. Always wondered if it might not be possible to assemble the flat pattern from parts of different thickness, for example roughly following the panels that the hard-chine version would have had. I am not sure it would work though, probably get uneven kinks and folds when pulling. Gerd| 8861|8830|2005-09-23 15:13:54|brentswain38|Re: Fw: Trevor Bolt? trawler.ca|I've had my debates with Trevor on the metalboat society's website.Very hard to deal with. I'd hate to ever become committed to having to deal with him or be dependent on him.You are not the numbskull here. Don't ever blame yourself for someone else's insecurity. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > Trevor had some other great quotes too like when I phoned and asked > in my ignorance if he thought as a designer that bilge keels could > fall off without adequate transverse framing. > > I was told straight away unless I was buying a plan from him that he > was not interested in speaking to me and that he made considerable > money and that his time was very valuable. > > I learned a lot about his greatness and little about boats. > > It felt very good to be treated like that (not!!) although he warmed > up when I said I was prepared to spend some money to get a boat. > > Does that make me numbskull #2? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied to > existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, the > plating is going to be pretty thick." > > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small > craft" > > > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten > away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement and > are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with > longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had > initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking at > the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling out > the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with > this style construction.) " > > > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add > frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the > boats. > > > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats > lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and > reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't wished > his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have > historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to > prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building > an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the > hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new > structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates the > benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, > then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit > from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for > all? > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not > frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8862|8830|2005-09-23 15:24:00|brentswain38|Re: Origami Scantling|I'm sure the Bavaria was designed by highly regarded and approved designers.Common sense and ocean crossing experiences if a prerequisite to any claim of understanding offshore boats regardless of any formulas. I'm sure Gerr has a lot to offer in the field of aluminium boatbuilding, but his comments on steel display an abysmal ignorance of the realities of owning a steel boat, and as such disqualify him as a source of info on steel boats. It's disapointing to meet people who were convinced to abandon their cruising dreams after being exposed to the piles of misinformatiuon of what you must have before going cruising. I know that many of my clients would never have made the break if they believed thay needed at least a 40 footer and all the bells and whistles the self proclaimed "Experts " doing a marketing job for elitism , told them they needed. There has long been an effort to make ' Yachting" a rich man only sport.I'll do everything I can to blow that myth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > We should remember that scantling rules do not calculate stresses > and loads, and as such will & can not prove any of us right or wrong. > > Scantling rules (Gerr, or ABS or other national rules or whatever) > simply say that if you want to build a boat like "A" from a > material "B" using method "C" you better use this or that scantling. > > Scantling rules are guidelines, rules of thumb, based on common > empirc and calculated data, and actually all designers and yards > work like that, nobody does the full set of original calculations > except for the occasional detail, like a new type of rudder or so. > Only extreme projects like high end racing yachts can afford to do > that anyway. It would be extremely time consuming to do this for a > single boat, and would be valid only for this one boat and would > need to be redone for your next design. Greg likes to play with > this, and knows that he could simply not afford to do this for each > design, right? ;-) > > What I like about Gerr's approach is that the initial definition of > the boat is really very detailed, much more than just that basic > length and displacement, and takes in account a lot of other > parameters to really come as close as possible to defining the > particular type of boat you will be working on. This results is a > Scantling number which will then be inserted into the formalas for > calculation of indiviual areas and parts. > His rules cover many variations and materials, but of course would > never cover ALL cases. > > To my knowledge there is currently no scantling rule or standard > that would take in account the particuler case of the origami shape > as we design it. Until there is we can (and in some countries MUST) > apply common/required scantling standards for steel hulls. When > buying a plan from a designer I would expect to have either > confirmation that the design and scantling is conform to > standard "x" and/or get a clear written declaration that the design > does not comply and that it is up to me to verify compliance. > > > BTW: At this moment there is a big discussion going on in Europe: A > Croation charter company bought a number of Bavarias and one of > them, brand new, lost their keel sailing, with loss of boat and > life... > > http://www.yacht.de/yo/yo_news/powerslave,id,3989,highlight,bavaria% > 20kiel,nodeid,50.html > > the charter guys published > then underwater pictures of all the other new yachts they had bought > yachts > > http://www.adriatic-challenge.com/news/news11.php and that does not > look nice > > The Yard claims that the boat was build to standards and now it's up > to courts and experts. > > Gerd > the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied to > existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, the > plating is going to be pretty thick." > > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small > craft" > > > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten > away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement and > are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with > longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had > initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking at > the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling out > the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with > this style construction.) " > > > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add > frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the > boats. > > > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats > lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and > reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't wished > his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have > historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to > prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building > an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the > hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new > structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates the > benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, > then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit > from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for > all? > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not > frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8863|8765|2005-09-23 15:34:32|brentswain38|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|For the first 26 footer I did, I did use thicker plate for the bottom. It just doesn't work in the conic parts. Gerd, you said that Gerr's scantlings would have made your boat very heavy. By what percentage roughly? Perhaps understanding the percentage of overkill could make them usefull as one could simply subtract that amount . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Thanks for the translation, Greg, it GREAT! ;-) > > > Most steel boats use thinner hull plating on the topsides to reduce > weight. Origami boats do not have this advantage. > > that is actually one of the few real disadvantages of origami. Always > wondered if it might not be possible to assemble the flat pattern from > parts of different thickness, for example roughly following the panels > that the hard-chine version would have had. I am not sure it would > work though, probably get uneven kinks and folds when pulling. > > Gerd | 8864|869|2005-09-23 15:38:58|brentswain38|Re: welding|If you find that you can weld an inch without burning thru, then just keep the rest of your welds down to 3/4 inch each. The trick to welding thin stuff is to develop a keen eye as to when it's getting hot enough to burn thru, and stop the weld immediately when it threatens to approach that point. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > When building wood stoves the fire place inserts where made with a > outside heat chamber with light gage and a fan to blow the hot air out. > We welded then with 1/8th" 6011 at 150amps downhill at a raped rate > with many tack welds. If you slowed down it would blow a hole that we > would fix by laying 1/8th" gas welding rod into and striking a ark. The > 6011 burned hot and by moving fast the heat distortion was cept down. > > Jon | 8865|8765|2005-09-23 15:41:11|brentswain38|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Pollard makes a good point about the lilihood of transverse frames causing the hull to tear, and how riverboats avoid having transverse frames touch the hull skin at any point. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > stiffness - moment of inertia - in^4 > strength - section modulus - in^3 > weight - section area - in^2 > > The best material for a boat depends on many factors, not the least of which > is your experience. Gerr freely admits that steel is his least favorite > material, having built in steel, wood, alloy and FG. > > I would think that name calling discredits origami, not Gerr. Pollard > writes that more boats are manufactured from alloy than any other material. > Maybe other builders know something this group doesn't? > > Simms writes that woodworkers can switch to alloy much easier than > steelworkers can switch. I've found much the same. As a result, it would > not be surprising that a steelworker's opinion would differ from Gerr's. > > Greg Elliott > > 1. Pollard - Boatbuilding with Aluminum > 2. Simms - Aluminium Boatbuilding > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:31 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > > > > Hiyas Greg, > > Sounds like you are having way too much fun :) > > > > I read your article on stiffness and looked at your table but maybe > > I'm just dense. What units are you using? i.e. .01 what? > > > > On the Gerr matter, I think I read some of the Gerr article that Brent > > is referring to. You might want to look at his specific comments. > > I was a bit surprised. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Hi Gerd, > >> > >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I was in > >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot alloy > > cat. I > >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > > Marine in > >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to review > > what it > >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in Barbados on > >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids and > >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat and > > catching > >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to do > > it. I > >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > >> > >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > > accepted. It > >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an origami > > boat up > >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami but > >> currently it suffers from two problems: > >> > >> 1. Shape > >> 2. Scantlings > >> > >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > > limitations of > >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of designers, > >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats because > >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that haven't been > >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael to > > expand on > >> this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in the > > next > >> MBS. > >> > >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > >> > >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > > acceptance of > >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering point > > of view > >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other metal > > boats. > >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > > standards and > >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. > >> > >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with a > > boat that > >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to our > > designs > >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to produce > >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the existing "rules of > >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > > improve > >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > >> > >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > >> > >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify the > > status > >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > >> > >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > > technique. > >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized standards. > >> > >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of the > > market. > >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > > designers, > >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. We can > >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > >> > >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick and > > easy to > >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming for. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Gerd" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 2:01 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > >> > >> > >> > Brent, what's that you're smoking today? ;-) > >> > > >> > "Elements of Boat Strength" is an incredibly straightforward approach > >> > to aplly scantling rules for different materials to be within common > >> > empiric and accepted standards. It is extremely usful, especially to > >> > amateur bums like me without the time and the training to work it all > >> > out myself. > >> > > >> > "The Nature of Boats, insights and esoterica for the nautically > >> > obsessed" is a great read, full of rare and obscure stuff, lots of fun > >> > to read and shows a person with a very open mind. > >> > > >> > He is running the Westlawn school now, and from the forum there and > >> > from answers to my own questions I can only say that he is in no way > >> > dogmatic, rather a curious and always interested researcher, and > >> > sombody who would never say THIS is the ONLY way to build a boat... > >> > > >> > It is true that he is not in favour of steel for SMALL boats, although > >> > he has designed a number of steel boats himself. Applying his > >> > scantling rules to my own design, I would get a very heavy boat > >> > indeed. This is due to the fact that his scantling makes heavy > >> > allowance for corrosion - something that today we would look at > >> > differently given new paint schemes and positive results that can be > >> > observed on boats that were built over a quater of a century ago. But > >> > then, his scantling rules are just that, applicable safe guidelines - > >> > and he prefers to err on the safe side. > >> > > >> > I know that you have done some Gerr-bashing before, and I don't know > >> > what makes you bring this up again right now - inapproriate recycling > >> > of old sail magazine pages in the airhead maybe? ;-) - but this time > >> > I really think that you are going too strong there. I do not think > >> > that somebody with such a flagrant absence of any published > >> > calculations and numbers for his own designs (which of course does not > >> > make your boats any worse!) should abuse Gerr in such a general way > >> > and especially not in this tone. > >> > > >> > Looks like the summer break is over. Greg is back as well ;-) > >> > > >> > with all respect ;-) > >> > > >> > Gerd > >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > >> > wrote: > >> >> A while back I read some of the most incredibly stupid comments > >> > ever > >> >> made on metal boats by a guy named David Gerr in Sail Magazine. > >> >> I couldn't believe that someone with such total removal from the > >> >> realities of metal boats is considered by some to be an expert. > >> >> It just shows how far removed theory can be from reality and how > >> >> easily people can be sucked into putting their life savings and > >> > lives > >> >> into the hands of a self proclaimed " Expert" without questioning > >> > the > >> >> abysmal stupidity of his comments. > >> >> This guy is denser than plutonium. Steer clear of him. > >> >> Brent > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8866|8765|2005-09-23 15:48:50|brentswain38|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|The length of the arch is not the only factor affecting strength. The width of the unsupported arch is also a factor. This is the distance between the deck, and the chine, both effectively ,fully welded steel bulkheads. It's the combination of the arch and the space between the chines and or deck and chine that give the origami boat it's strength. The paper model you describe doesn't have the relatively closely spaced support of deck and chine to help maintain the arch. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The curve of the hull from sheer to centerline forms an arch in a round > bilged boat. In a chine boat it also forms an arch, though not as smooth. > Similarly, the longitudinal curve of a hull forms an arch. > > Build an arch. The longer you build it, the less weight it can support, > unless you increase the thickness of the material or add framing. As the > arch gets longer, if you maintain the same thickness of material you will > quickly reach a point at which the arch cannot support its own weight. It > will buckle and collapse. > > Try it. Take a piece of ordinary A4 paper and hold it lengthwise in your > hands so that it forms an arch - no problem. You can even get it to hold up > a small weight like an eraser. > > Now, tape/glue 3 pieces of A4 paper together lengthwise and hold them in an > arch. Use lap joints so the paper is full strength. This 3 to 1 ratio is > very close to the ratio between transverse and longitudinal frame length in > a boat. You will find that the arch has a hard time holding its own weight, > let alone the weight of an eraser. > > This has been know at least since Romans times. They could not build arches > past a certain size. Instead they used lots of little arches. > > This is the same principle in framing. Lots of short transverse frames can > support much more than the same weight of longitudinal frames. If you want > to use longitudinal frames without losing hull strength, you need to support > them in the middle. How you support them to minimize stress risers is with > a girder or bulkhead. > > How much hull strength do you lose with unsupported longitudinal framing? > It depends on your scantlings. Assume a conventionally framed metal boat > relies 50% on its frames and 50% on the curve of the plating for support. > In most boats the length of the longitudinals is more than 3 times the > length of the transverse frames. This makes them about 10 times less > effective for a give frame size (inverse square). > > As such, using longitudinal framing in place of transverse framing, without > transverse support would reduce our hull strength to 50% + (50% / 10) = 55%. > Many conventionally framed steel hulls have sufficient corrosion allowance > that they can operate at 55% of their original strength. This is the most > obvious explanation why origami hulls are able to make use of longitudinal > framing in spite of the loss of hull strength. > > Meta yachts overcome this problem by increasing the hull thickness, which is > really only practical in alloy. Our method allows you to overcome this > problem without increasing the hull thickness, making it practical in steel > as well. > > Nature figured it first. Our rib cage is oriented on the short axis because > this is the strongest way to build for a given weight. Even in fish who > don't use their ribs for breathing. What we have done is to come up with a > method that allows you to build origami boats on the long axis without a > loss of strength or a weight penalty, thus allowing origami boats to > overcome one of the major objections against them. > > The group can continue to sit here, month after month, arguing that origami > is right and everyone else is wrong and no progress will result. The vast > majority of designers, builders and owners are not going to accept that > origami is some sort of voodoo that can ignore the laws of nature. Or, we > can incorporate a few small changes that will significantly increase the > strength of origami to match accepted standards and end the discussion. We > have chosen the second approach. > > Greg Elliott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:04 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > > > > The fact that the longitudinals ar running along, and thus > > maintaining the longitudinal curve of the hull plate, makes them far > > more effective than transverse framing, and thus they can be a > > smaller section and still be structurally more effective. Span length > > for longitudinals is simply enough length to incorporate enough of > > the curve ,as the curve supports the longitudinal the way a chine > > does, but far more effectively. > > I've found that pipes between the inside deck edges and the chine > > are extremely effective in the mast area, far more effective than > > bulkheads as they triangulate between themselves and the hull plate > > with it's longitudinal curves. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Hi Gerd, > >> > >> If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless framing - > > the span > >> length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you run > > the > >> longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on the same > > spacing, > >> with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 > > girth, you are > >> going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as > > the "transverse > >> only" framed boats. > >> > >> 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, depending > > on the > >> boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast support > > and > >> furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and mounted > > off the > >> skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. > >> > >> This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for origami > > with little > >> if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of similar > > shape, > >> and can expect about the same amount of support from the plating. > > Without > >> the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than the > >> conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span length of > > the > >> longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the boats > > heavier. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Gerd" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling > >> > >> > >> > Good points Greg. > >> > > >> > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding > >> > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the bounds > > of > >> > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling an > >> > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok and > >> > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less compound > >> > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as the > >> > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding is in > >> > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a hard > >> > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher > > scantling > >> > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, > > this > >> > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just > >> > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) > >> > > >> > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. > >> > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and > >> > calculated. > >> > > >> > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working the > >> > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and practical > >> > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as > > solutions > >> > for different hullshapes. > >> > > >> > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from the > >> > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other > >> > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for completely > >> > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded sterns, > >> > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. > >> > > >> > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that be > >> > seen? do you have it? > >> > > >> > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more > >> > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will get > > my > >> > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy > > spray. > >> > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching > > back > >> > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) > >> > > >> > Gerd > >> > > >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> Hi Gerd, > >> >> > >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the Tsunami. I > >> > was in > >> >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot > > alloy > >> > cat. I > >> >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea Horse > >> > Marine in > >> >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to > >> > review what it > >> >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in > > Barbados > >> > on > >> >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and kids > >> > and > >> >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy boat > >> > and catching > >> >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone has to > >> > do it. I > >> >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > >> >> > >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > >> > accepted. It > >> >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an > >> > origami boat up > >> >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for origami > > but > >> >> currently it suffers from two problems: > >> >> > >> >> 1. Shape > >> >> 2. Scantlings > >> >> > >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > >> > limitations of > >> >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of > >> > designers, > >> >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami boats > >> > because > >> >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that > > haven't > >> > been > >> >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with Michael > > to > >> > expand on > >> >> this, and have written an article which I believe will appear in > >> > the next > >> >> MBS. > >> >> > >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > >> >> > >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > >> > acceptance of > >> >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering > >> > point of view > >> >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all other > >> > metal boats. > >> >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to recognized > >> > standards and > >> >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. > >> >> > >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do with > > a > >> > boat that > >> >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted Gerr to > >> > our designs > >> >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to > >> > produce > >> >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the > >> > existing "rules of > >> >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > >> >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting point, to > >> > improve > >> >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing weight. > >> >> > >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > >> >> > >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to justify > > the > >> > status > >> >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > >> >> > >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of the > >> > technique. > >> >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized > >> > standards. > >> >> > >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the size of > >> > the market. > >> >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the majority of > >> > designers, > >> >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should be. > >> > We can > >> >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > >> >> > >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - quick > > and > >> > easy to > >> >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are aiming > > for. > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8867|8765|2005-09-23 15:48:56|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > Gerd, you said that Gerr's scantlings would have made your boat very > heavy. By what percentage roughly? Perhaps understanding the > percentage of overkill could make them usefull as one could simply > subtract that amount . I do not really know, brent, I went through the first part and when I saw where I was heading, I did not do the entire thing. although it is easy to apply it does need quite a bit of work, and anyway, I was already cutting my plates ;-) I would say it ways a good 50 percent - but then, with my 3 mm hull and 2mm deck I know I am a bit on the light side already.| 8868|8817|2005-09-23 15:51:59|brentswain38|Re: protecting interior wood|I've used the Flecto clear finish with good results. I've put five coats on in 20 miles on a hot summer day while sailing. This quick dry feature makes it easy to use. Avoid oil, as any fingerprints on it tend to soak deeply into the wood and are hard to remove. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > We are lokng at doing the interior of our boat with yellow cedar. > anybody know what a good (ie. cheap and easy to apply) finish for this > wood, would be? It has to be durable to stand up to foot and paw > traffic. > thx > Rowland | 8869|8765|2005-09-23 15:51:59|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|... just to avoid misunderstanding: that would be about 50 % of the hull, not of displacement... Will do the full scantling for the next designs though and see how that turns out.| 8870|8828|2005-09-23 15:57:52|brentswain38|Re: Victoria BC|Tsehum harbour is good as is the anchorage just north of the government dock in Sooke. There is a trail and a set of steps up to the town about 500 meters north of the government dock in Sooke. Gret town.Far enough from Victoria, but close enough if you need it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > Question regarding the Victoria area. I have an opportunity for some > work down there and was wondering if anyone knows of a liveaboard dock > or anchor out location (within reasonable car parking)anywere in the > Victoria area from Sidey to Sooke. Thanks in advance... > > Gary | 8871|8765|2005-09-23 18:33:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|By your example, multi-chine origami is stronger than single chine origami because the spacing between the chines and deck, and chines themselves is closer. I agree. Multi-chine origami is much stronger than single chine, which aside from shape is why we recommend it. As most boats involve a couple of years effort to complete, the extra day or two it takes to build a multi-chine hull offers great benefits at almost no cost. The paper model is accurate and shows the effects of increasing the span length. Simply cut the paper into narrower strips if you want to model the effect you are describing. Does it make the arch better able to support itself longitudinally? The answer is No. The reason for this is that hull strength is a combination of transverse and longitudinal strength. Cutting the panel into thinner strips (multi-chine) makes the panels better supported transversely, which increases the hull strength. However there is a limit to this, with the benefits dropping off rapidly past 3 chines. To further increase the strength of the hull - without increasing the plate thickness - a simple method is to reduce the span length of the longitudinal framing. Because this is an inverse square function, just a few transverse bulkheads/girders add fantastic strength to the boat. Because the bulkheads/girders can be located on furnishing boundaries they can be made virtually zero cost. Thus, we recommend multi-chines and transverse bulkheads/girders because they result in a significantly stronger hulls with almost no effort or cost. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > The length of the arch is not the only factor affecting strength. > The width of the unsupported arch is also a factor. This is the > distance between the deck, and the chine, both effectively ,fully > welded steel bulkheads. It's the combination of the arch and the > space between the chines and or deck and chine that give the origami > boat it's strength. The paper model you describe doesn't have the > relatively closely spaced support of deck and chine to help maintain > the arch. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> The curve of the hull from sheer to centerline forms an arch in a > round >> bilged boat. In a chine boat it also forms an arch, though not as > smooth. >> Similarly, the longitudinal curve of a hull forms an arch. >> >> Build an arch. The longer you build it, the less weight it can > support, >> unless you increase the thickness of the material or add framing. > As the >> arch gets longer, if you maintain the same thickness of material > you will >> quickly reach a point at which the arch cannot support its own > weight. It >> will buckle and collapse. >> >> Try it. Take a piece of ordinary A4 paper and hold it lengthwise > in your >> hands so that it forms an arch - no problem. You can even get it > to hold up >> a small weight like an eraser. >> >> Now, tape/glue 3 pieces of A4 paper together lengthwise and hold > them in an >> arch. Use lap joints so the paper is full strength. This 3 to 1 > ratio is >> very close to the ratio between transverse and longitudinal frame > length in >> a boat. You will find that the arch has a hard time holding its > own weight, >> let alone the weight of an eraser. >> >> This has been know at least since Romans times. They could not > build arches >> past a certain size. Instead they used lots of little arches. >> >> This is the same principle in framing. Lots of short transverse > frames can >> support much more than the same weight of longitudinal frames. If > you want >> to use longitudinal frames without losing hull strength, you need > to support >> them in the middle. How you support them to minimize stress > risers is with >> a girder or bulkhead. >> >> How much hull strength do you lose with unsupported longitudinal > framing? >> It depends on your scantlings. Assume a conventionally framed > metal boat >> relies 50% on its frames and 50% on the curve of the plating for > support. >> In most boats the length of the longitudinals is more than 3 times > the >> length of the transverse frames. This makes them about 10 times > less >> effective for a give frame size (inverse square). >> >> As such, using longitudinal framing in place of transverse > framing, without >> transverse support would reduce our hull strength to 50% + (50% / > 10) = 55%. >> Many conventionally framed steel hulls have sufficient corrosion > allowance >> that they can operate at 55% of their original strength. This is > the most >> obvious explanation why origami hulls are able to make use of > longitudinal >> framing in spite of the loss of hull strength. >> >> Meta yachts overcome this problem by increasing the hull > thickness, which is >> really only practical in alloy. Our method allows you to overcome > this >> problem without increasing the hull thickness, making it practical > in steel >> as well. >> >> Nature figured it first. Our rib cage is oriented on the short > axis because >> this is the strongest way to build for a given weight. Even in > fish who >> don't use their ribs for breathing. What we have done is to come > up with a >> method that allows you to build origami boats on the long axis > without a >> loss of strength or a weight penalty, thus allowing origami boats > to >> overcome one of the major objections against them. >> >> The group can continue to sit here, month after month, arguing > that origami >> is right and everyone else is wrong and no progress will result. > The vast >> majority of designers, builders and owners are not going to accept > that >> origami is some sort of voodoo that can ignore the laws of > nature. Or, we >> can incorporate a few small changes that will significantly > increase the >> strength of origami to match accepted standards and end the > discussion. We >> have chosen the second approach. >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:04 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling >> >> >> > The fact that the longitudinals ar running along, and thus >> > maintaining the longitudinal curve of the hull plate, makes them > far >> > more effective than transverse framing, and thus they can be a >> > smaller section and still be structurally more effective. Span > length >> > for longitudinals is simply enough length to incorporate enough > of >> > the curve ,as the curve supports the longitudinal the way a chine >> > does, but far more effectively. >> > I've found that pipes between the inside deck edges and the chine >> > are extremely effective in the mast area, far more effective > than >> > bulkheads as they triangulate between themselves and the hull > plate >> > with it's longitudinal curves. >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> Hi Gerd, >> >> >> >> If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless > framing - >> > the span >> >> length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you run >> > the >> >> longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on the > same >> > spacing, >> >> with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 >> > girth, you are >> >> going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as >> > the "transverse >> >> only" framed boats. >> >> >> >> 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, > depending >> > on the >> >> boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast support >> > and >> >> furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and mounted >> > off the >> >> skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. >> >> >> >> This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for origami >> > with little >> >> if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of > similar >> > shape, >> >> and can expect about the same amount of support from the > plating. >> > Without >> >> the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than > the >> >> conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span > length of >> > the >> >> longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the boats >> > heavier. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Gerd" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling >> >> >> >> >> >> > Good points Greg. >> >> > >> >> > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding >> >> > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the > bounds >> > of >> >> > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling > an >> >> > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok > and >> >> > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less > compound >> >> > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as > the >> >> > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding > is in >> >> > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a > hard >> >> > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher >> > scantling >> >> > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami...(remark, >> > this >> >> > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just >> >> > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) >> >> > >> >> > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. >> >> > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and >> >> > calculated. >> >> > >> >> > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working > the >> >> > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and > practical >> >> > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as >> > solutions >> >> > for different hullshapes. >> >> > >> >> > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from > the >> >> > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other >> >> > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for > completely >> >> > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded > sterns, >> >> > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. >> >> > >> >> > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that > be >> >> > seen? do you have it? >> >> > >> >> > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more >> >> > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will > get >> > my >> >> > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy >> > spray. >> >> > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching >> > back >> >> > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) >> >> > >> >> > Gerd >> >> > >> >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> Hi Gerd, >> >> >> >> >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the > Tsunami. I >> >> > was in >> >> >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot >> > alloy >> >> > cat. I >> >> >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea > Horse >> >> > Marine in >> >> >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to >> >> > review what it >> >> >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in >> > Barbados >> >> > on >> >> >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and > kids >> >> > and >> >> >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy > boat >> >> > and catching >> >> >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone > has to >> >> > do it. I >> >> >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). >> >> >> >> >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well >> >> > accepted. It >> >> >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an >> >> > origami boat up >> >> >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for > origami >> > but >> >> >> currently it suffers from two problems: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Shape >> >> >> 2. Scantlings >> >> >> >> >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the >> >> > limitations of >> >> >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of >> >> > designers, >> >> >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami > boats >> >> > because >> >> >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that >> > haven't >> >> > been >> >> >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with > Michael >> > to >> >> > expand on >> >> >> this, and have written an article which I believe will > appear in >> >> > the next >> >> >> MBS. >> >> >> >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the >> >> > acceptance of >> >> >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering >> >> > point of view >> >> >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all > other >> >> > metal boats. >> >> >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to > recognized >> >> > standards and >> >> >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do > with >> > a >> >> > boat that >> >> >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted > Gerr to >> >> > our designs >> >> >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to >> >> > produce >> >> >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the >> >> > existing "rules of >> >> >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different >> >> >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting > point, to >> >> > improve >> >> >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing > weight. >> >> >> >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to > justify >> > the >> >> > status >> >> >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of > the >> >> > technique. >> >> >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized >> >> > standards. >> >> >> >> >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the > size of >> >> > the market. >> >> >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the > majority of >> >> > designers, >> >> >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should > be. >> >> > We can >> >> >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. >> >> >> >> >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - > quick >> > and >> >> > easy to >> >> >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are > aiming >> > for. >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8872|8830|2005-09-23 18:49:50|Sugar|Re: Fw: Trevor Bolt? trawler.ca|Good Words Brent - and thanks ! It's nice to have you on our side and for you to share all that wonderful knowledge you have with us. You're appreciated! :) Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I've had my debates with Trevor on the metalboat society's > website.Very hard to deal with. I'd hate to ever become committed to > having to deal with him or be dependent on him.You are not the > numbskull here. Don't ever blame yourself for someone else's > insecurity. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > wrote: > > Trevor had some other great quotes too like when I phoned and > asked > > in my ignorance if he thought as a designer that bilge keels could > > fall off without adequate transverse framing. > > > > I was told straight away unless I was buying a plan from him that > he > > was not interested in speaking to me and that he made considerable > > money and that his time was very valuable. > > > > I learned a lot about his greatness and little about boats. > > > > It felt very good to be treated like that (not!!) although he > warmed > > up when I said I was prepared to spend some money to get a boat. > > > > Does that make me numbskull #2? > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > > > > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > > > > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied > to > > existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > > > > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, > the > > plating is going to be pretty thick." > > > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small > > craft" > > > > > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > > > > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten > > away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement > and > > are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with > > longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had > > initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking > at > > the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling > out > > the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with > > this style construction.) " > > > > > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add > > frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the > > boats. > > > > > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats > > lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and > > reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't > wished > > his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > > > > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have > > historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to > > prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building > > an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the > > hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > > > > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new > > structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates > the > > benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, > > then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit > > from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > > > > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for > > all? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not > > frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8873|8873|2005-09-23 19:48:07|Gerald Niffenegger|No more clogged MIG nozzles|My helper was having a problem with weld spatter clogging the nozzle of our MIG. The other day he rubbed some silicon, the clear type used for sealing windows, on the nozzle and no more clogged nozzle. Heck, this might be common knowledge but it was new to us so thought I would pass it on. Gerald| 8874|8873|2005-09-23 20:21:05|tom|Re: No more clogged MIG nozzles|Hello Gerald I would be a little leary useing silicon on the mig nozzle, The fumes from the silicon burning-melting when it gets hot might not be to healthy to breathe its allready bad enough. I just use a nozzle dip available from most welding supply shops and it works great Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] No more clogged MIG nozzles > My helper was having a problem with weld spatter clogging the nozzle of > our MIG. The other day he rubbed some silicon, the clear type used for > sealing windows, on the nozzle and no more clogged nozzle. Heck, this > might be common knowledge but it was new to us so thought I would pass > it on. > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8875|8873|2005-09-23 20:48:15|Courtney Thomas|Re: No more clogged MIG nozzles|Is that "silicone" ? Thank you, Courtney On Fri, 2005-09-23 at 18:47, Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > My helper was having a problem with weld spatter clogging the nozzle of > our MIG. The other day he rubbed some silicon, the clear type used for > sealing windows, on the nozzle and no more clogged nozzle. Heck, this > might be common knowledge but it was new to us so thought I would pass > it on. > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8876|8876|2005-09-24 04:36:25|sae140|Defining Origami ?|Towards a Origami definition: Well - the first thing you need to agree on when considering a definition is what is generally meant by a definition in the first place (!). There are at least two senses in which the word "definition" can be used - a) to fix or set the meaning of a word, or b) to describe and explain the current meaning(s) of a word. As languages are growing, evolving things, I much prefer the flexibility of the latter - after all, Origami is commonly understood as being the Japanese art of paper-folding (where folding implies the creasing of the paper to help form shapes) - so the word Origami has two distinctly separate areas of meaning before we even start gluing any words together ... One other thought which crosses my mind is that when talking of language issues we are automatically talking about communication - and in any widespread communication there will be an unknown recipient, a person who's needs or interests may differ significantly from the next person. Thus a potential builder may be keenly interested in the number and shape of darts, whereas a purchaser may not be interested in such detail per se, but more on the finished appearance, performance, and inherent seaworthiness of the finished product. Surveyors and insurance companies will be be interested in other issues. So maybe the search for a single all-embracing yet precise definition is flawed from the outset ? I would offer the following: For a short and simple 'soundbite': Origami: a method of frameless metal boat construction. or, Origami: a novel method of frameless metal boat construction. For more general-purpose use: Origami: a fast and easy-to-build method of frameless metal boat construction, which involves the pulling of flat flexible sheets into a rigid pre-determined 3-dimensional shape. I'll leave more technical definitions to others, as I actually see little point in one precise term for 'Origami' which satisfies the membership of this forum - we are already "in the church" - we already have an understanding of the issues involved. I'd like to see more focus on communicating the basic concept to a much wider audience. When a general-purpose dictionary includes "a method of boat-building" as well as Japanese paper-folding, then this will have been achieved. (Hope this isn't boring the arse off too many people) Colin| 8877|8876|2005-09-24 07:01:50|Gerd|Re: Defining Origami ?|Colin, what I was looking for was to find a way to isolate the one particularity of this method that defines it by exluding other, related methods. in this sense: > For a short and simple 'soundbite': > Origami: a method of frameless metal boat construction. or, > Origami: a novel method of frameless metal boat construction. doe's not cut it for me as it also would apply to any (or any "new) way to build metal boats without frames and excludes boats that are not build in metal, and... > For more general-purpose use: > Origami: a fast and easy-to-build method of frameless metal > boat construction, which involves the pulling of flat flexible > sheets into a rigid pre-determined 3-dimensional shape. would also include lots of other ways, same as above, including among other V.d.Stadt's hard-chines in basket mould which also "involves the pulling of flat flexible sheets into a rigid pre- determined 3-dimensional shape". I really think the single, defining element here is the darts. Obviously, using the expression origami is just a habitude and convention, not a real definition, just as "folded steel" is not strictly speaking exact. for plywood you find the expression "tortured", which would be more precise, even if I have seen some hulls in all materials that looked dramatically tortured as well ;-) Insisting on the frames issue is IMHO not helpful, as it does not clarify or describe the building technique. my real reason behind looking for a definition is that would like to see that the entire idea remains very open for experiments. I could imagine that mixed solutions could be found, using for eexample pre- formed skin areas together with darts. What shapes could be archieved combining constant camber or radius chine areas with darted areas? Are there ways to apply origami to flat panels of other material? Could Kelsalls KISS technique win by using darts and be applied to monohulls? And so on.. Limiting ourselves to a certain type of shape or material or structure certainly will not help to promote this great technique. Gerd| 8878|8873|2005-09-24 08:45:39|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: No more clogged MIG nozzles|Silicone it is! You learn something every day ...... I didn't know there was a difference. According to my dictionary, silicone is made from various stuff including silicon. Having read the precautions on my silicone tube, the last statement is "chame um medico". I am going to have him stop spreading on the thin layer of silicone until I find out if the respirator he wears will filter out the fumes. You weldors are wearing respirators when you weld? Gerald| 8879|8873|2005-09-24 09:34:44|tom|Re: No more clogged MIG nozzles|Well we should be wearing reperators all the time but most welding I do is outside in the open. the only time I wear one is when I'm welding galvanised metal or useing fluxcore wire ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: No more clogged MIG nozzles > Silicone it is! You learn something every day ...... I didn't know > there was a difference. According to my dictionary, silicone is made > from various stuff including silicon. > Having read the precautions on my silicone tube, the last statement > is "chame um medico". I am going to have him stop spreading on the thin > layer of silicone until I find out if the respirator he wears will > filter out the fumes. You weldors are wearing respirators when you weld? > Gerald > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8880|8880|2005-09-24 12:50:35|Puck III|WAAUUUW What A Video !!!!|From: "Puck III" Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 Hi All , our NEW Cover photo is a shameless promotion of the new 3+ hour instructional DVD (2 disc)on the construction of Alex's 36 foot hull construction from flat plate to bare hull, and is now available worldwide. Information about DVD from Alex and ordering books and plans from Brent can be found in the menu under "Files" in the Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats I received the Video yesterday and could not resist reviewing it with my best critical attention. One word : Extreeeeemly Well Done A+++++ The best on the Origami Boatbuilding subject I have seen until today. My Special Thanks and Appreciation to Brent Swain and Alex Christie for their Great Work . In my eyes : a must have video for anyone interested not only in the Topic but certainly for any amateur-builder in the making. Enjoy the Video as I did . Old Ben| 8881|8881|2005-09-24 15:31:26|cyepler|Oragami Boat Definition|I have been following the rather lengthy thread on the definition of an oragami boat. The discussion seems to unravel around relatively minor points about what constitutes frames or frameless construction and what exactly are 'darts'. This reminds me of the old religious arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It seems to me that the salient point of oragami construction is the taking of preshaped flat sheets and applying force to bend or twist them into the desired shape and fastening them so they stay that way. The addition, or lack, of frames is a side issue. Maybe an important one, but does it rise to the level of defining oragami construction? The use of 'darts' or even properly shaped seperate panels also seems to fall into this category. I also see that building in metal is always specified in the definitions in this group. This group is about building metal oragami boats,and that is fine, but it seems that tortured plywood and the use of prelaid fiberglass sheets such as Derek Kelsal's KSS method are also oragami boats. Why limit the definition? Sure, for the purposes of this forum, it is fine to discuss metal oragami boats seperately, but the construction philosophy seems the same, just with different materials and fastening methods. Just putting in my two cents worth. Maybe I clarified things, maybe I just stirred the pot some more! This seems to be a more emotional issue for some people then I would have guessed. Cyrus Epler| 8882|8765|2005-09-24 16:12:52|brentswain38|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Multi chine is no doubt stronger, but I've never liked the ugliness of a chine above the waterline. A single chine hull with all chines below the waterline can be hard to distinguish from a round bilged boat, especially with conic ends. This is not true of a multi chine hull with a chine unavoidably showing above the waterline. It would be foolish to suggest that a design which has survived 16 days in 8 ft surf on a Mexican beach, a 14 knot collision with a steel barge , a collision with a freighter , and pounding accross 200 meters of Fijian coral reef is of inadequate strength. Such punishment would have demolished an aluminium hull. The way the many parts of a hull and deck support each other, the only model which is relevant is a model of the entire hull and deck. A simple piece of paper is totally irrelevant, and tells us nothing. Even on a single chine hull, the distance between strong points, like chines and decks, is less than the normal spacing between transverse frames on a framed hull. I'd suggest that you either build a sheet metal model of one of your hulls, then try to distort it , or put a hydraulic jack between one of the chines on a hull with no transverse frames, or bulkheads, and the deck edge and try to distort it that way.You'll learn a lot, quickly.There is no cleaer example of how the various parts act as bulkheads and support each other, or the irrelevance of transverse frames and bulkheads. Too many metal boats have been grossly overbuilt with irrelevant parts, because desighners have looked at the various parts in isolation rather than the structure as a whole. If designers would simply build light sheet metal model of one of their hulls and see first hand how it all works, mathematical formula wouldn't produce such overweight boats that they are mislead to believe that smaller boats are impractical in steel. Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the bee or the formula? In school I was told that a bee has a maximum speed of 4 mph, yet I commonly see them flying into a 25 knot headwind.Could the bee have it wrong ? Surely the experts can't be wrong. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > By your example, multi-chine origami is stronger than single chine origami > because the spacing between the chines and deck, and chines themselves is > closer. I agree. > > Multi-chine origami is much stronger than single chine, which aside from > shape is why we recommend it. As most boats involve a couple of years > effort to complete, the extra day or two it takes to build a multi- chine > hull offers great benefits at almost no cost. > > The paper model is accurate and shows the effects of increasing the span > length. Simply cut the paper into narrower strips if you want to model > the effect you are describing. Does it make the arch better able to > support itself longitudinally? The answer is No. > > The reason for this is that hull strength is a combination of transverse and > longitudinal strength. Cutting the panel into thinner strips (multi-chine) > makes the panels better supported transversely, which increases the hull > strength. However there is a limit to this, with the benefits dropping off > rapidly past 3 chines. > > To further increase the strength of the hull - without increasing the plate > thickness - a simple method is to reduce the span length of the longitudinal > framing. Because this is an inverse square function, just a few transverse > bulkheads/girders add fantastic strength to the boat. Because the > bulkheads/girders can be located on furnishing boundaries they can be made > virtually zero cost. > > Thus, we recommend multi-chines and transverse bulkheads/girders because > they result in a significantly stronger hulls with almost no effort or cost. > > Greg Elliott > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 12:48 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > > > > The length of the arch is not the only factor affecting strength. > > The width of the unsupported arch is also a factor. This is the > > distance between the deck, and the chine, both effectively ,fully > > welded steel bulkheads. It's the combination of the arch and the > > space between the chines and or deck and chine that give the origami > > boat it's strength. The paper model you describe doesn't have the > > relatively closely spaced support of deck and chine to help maintain > > the arch. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> The curve of the hull from sheer to centerline forms an arch in a > > round > >> bilged boat. In a chine boat it also forms an arch, though not as > > smooth. > >> Similarly, the longitudinal curve of a hull forms an arch. > >> > >> Build an arch. The longer you build it, the less weight it can > > support, > >> unless you increase the thickness of the material or add framing. > > As the > >> arch gets longer, if you maintain the same thickness of material > > you will > >> quickly reach a point at which the arch cannot support its own > > weight. It > >> will buckle and collapse. > >> > >> Try it. Take a piece of ordinary A4 paper and hold it lengthwise > > in your > >> hands so that it forms an arch - no problem. You can even get it > > to hold up > >> a small weight like an eraser. > >> > >> Now, tape/glue 3 pieces of A4 paper together lengthwise and hold > > them in an > >> arch. Use lap joints so the paper is full strength. This 3 to 1 > > ratio is > >> very close to the ratio between transverse and longitudinal frame > > length in > >> a boat. You will find that the arch has a hard time holding its > > own weight, > >> let alone the weight of an eraser. > >> > >> This has been know at least since Romans times. They could not > > build arches > >> past a certain size. Instead they used lots of little arches. > >> > >> This is the same principle in framing. Lots of short transverse > > frames can > >> support much more than the same weight of longitudinal frames. If > > you want > >> to use longitudinal frames without losing hull strength, you need > > to support > >> them in the middle. How you support them to minimize stress > > risers is with > >> a girder or bulkhead. > >> > >> How much hull strength do you lose with unsupported longitudinal > > framing? > >> It depends on your scantlings. Assume a conventionally framed > > metal boat > >> relies 50% on its frames and 50% on the curve of the plating for > > support. > >> In most boats the length of the longitudinals is more than 3 times > > the > >> length of the transverse frames. This makes them about 10 times > > less > >> effective for a give frame size (inverse square). > >> > >> As such, using longitudinal framing in place of transverse > > framing, without > >> transverse support would reduce our hull strength to 50% + (50% / > > 10) = 55%. > >> Many conventionally framed steel hulls have sufficient corrosion > > allowance > >> that they can operate at 55% of their original strength. This is > > the most > >> obvious explanation why origami hulls are able to make use of > > longitudinal > >> framing in spite of the loss of hull strength. > >> > >> Meta yachts overcome this problem by increasing the hull > > thickness, which is > >> really only practical in alloy. Our method allows you to overcome > > this > >> problem without increasing the hull thickness, making it practical > > in steel > >> as well. > >> > >> Nature figured it first. Our rib cage is oriented on the short > > axis because > >> this is the strongest way to build for a given weight. Even in > > fish who > >> don't use their ribs for breathing. What we have done is to come > > up with a > >> method that allows you to build origami boats on the long axis > > without a > >> loss of strength or a weight penalty, thus allowing origami boats > > to > >> overcome one of the major objections against them. > >> > >> The group can continue to sit here, month after month, arguing > > that origami > >> is right and everyone else is wrong and no progress will result. > > The vast > >> majority of designers, builders and owners are not going to accept > > that > >> origami is some sort of voodoo that can ignore the laws of > > nature. Or, we > >> can incorporate a few small changes that will significantly > > increase the > >> strength of origami to match accepted standards and end the > > discussion. We > >> have chosen the second approach. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "brentswain38" > >> To: > >> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:04 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > >> > >> > >> > The fact that the longitudinals ar running along, and thus > >> > maintaining the longitudinal curve of the hull plate, makes them > > far > >> > more effective than transverse framing, and thus they can be a > >> > smaller section and still be structurally more effective. Span > > length > >> > for longitudinals is simply enough length to incorporate enough > > of > >> > the curve ,as the curve supports the longitudinal the way a chine > >> > does, but far more effectively. > >> > I've found that pipes between the inside deck edges and the chine > >> > are extremely effective in the mast area, far more effective > > than > >> > bulkheads as they triangulate between themselves and the hull > > plate > >> > with it's longitudinal curves. > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> Hi Gerd, > >> >> > >> >> If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless > > framing - > >> > the span > >> >> length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you run > >> > the > >> >> longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on the > > same > >> > spacing, > >> >> with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 > >> > girth, you are > >> >> going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as > >> > the "transverse > >> >> only" framed boats. > >> >> > >> >> 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, > > depending > >> > on the > >> >> boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast support > >> > and > >> >> furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and mounted > >> > off the > >> >> skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. > >> >> > >> >> This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for origami > >> > with little > >> >> if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of > > similar > >> > shape, > >> >> and can expect about the same amount of support from the > > plating. > >> > Without > >> >> the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than > > the > >> >> conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span > > length of > >> > the > >> >> longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the boats > >> > heavier. > >> >> > >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Gerd" > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM > >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Good points Greg. > >> >> > > >> >> > Actally it would be interesting to do more research regarding > >> >> > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the > > bounds > >> > of > >> >> > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that scantling > > an > >> >> > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be ok > > and > >> >> > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less > > compound > >> >> > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, as > > the > >> >> > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from grounding > > is in > >> >> > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much a > > hard > >> >> > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher > >> > scantling > >> >> > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami... (remark, > >> > this > >> >> > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just > >> >> > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) > >> >> > > >> >> > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per se. > >> >> > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully and > >> >> > calculated. > >> >> > > >> >> > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working > > the > >> >> > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and > > practical > >> >> > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as > >> > solutions > >> >> > for different hullshapes. > >> >> > > >> >> > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut from > > the > >> >> > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other > >> >> > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for > > completely > >> >> > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded > > sterns, > >> >> > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. > >> >> > > >> >> > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can that > > be > >> >> > seen? do you have it? > >> >> > > >> >> > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more > >> >> > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I will > > get > >> > my > >> >> > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the icy > >> > spray. > >> >> > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my aching > >> > back > >> >> > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) > >> >> > > >> >> > Gerd > >> >> > > >> >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Gerd, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the > > Tsunami. I > >> >> > was in > >> >> >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 foot > >> > alloy > >> >> > cat. I > >> >> >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea > > Horse > >> >> > Marine in > >> >> >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time builder/friend to > >> >> > review what it > >> >> >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in > >> > Barbados > >> >> > on > >> >> >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife and > > kids > >> >> > and > >> >> >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy > > boat > >> >> > and catching > >> >> >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone > > has to > >> >> > do it. I > >> >> >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, well > >> >> > accepted. It > >> >> >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring an > >> >> > origami boat up > >> >> >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for > > origami > >> > but > >> >> >> currently it suffers from two problems: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 1. Shape > >> >> >> 2. Scantlings > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on the > >> >> > limitations of > >> >> >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority of > >> >> > designers, > >> >> >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami > > boats > >> >> > because > >> >> >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that > >> > haven't > >> >> > been > >> >> >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with > > Michael > >> > to > >> >> > expand on > >> >> >> this, and have written an article which I believe will > > appear in > >> >> > the next > >> >> >> MBS. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to the > >> >> > acceptance of > >> >> >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an engineering > >> >> > point of view > >> >> >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all > > other > >> >> > metal boats. > >> >> >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to > > recognized > >> >> > standards and > >> >> >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to do > > with > >> > a > >> >> > boat that > >> >> >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted > > Gerr to > >> >> > our designs > >> >> >> and have found that with careful review we have been able to > >> >> > produce > >> >> >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the > >> >> > existing "rules of > >> >> >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model different > >> >> >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting > > point, to > >> >> > improve > >> >> >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing > > weight. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm > >> >> >> > >> >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to > > justify > >> > the > >> >> > status > >> >> >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of > > the > >> >> > technique. > >> >> >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized > >> >> > standards. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the > > size of > >> >> > the market. > >> >> >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the > > majority of > >> >> > designers, > >> >> >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it should > > be. > >> >> > We can > >> >> >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - > > quick > >> > and > >> >> > easy to > >> >> >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are > > aiming > >> > for. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Greg Elliott > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8883|8830|2005-09-24 16:24:16|brentswain38|Re: Fw: Trevor Bolt? trawler.ca|In my debates with Trevor, he once commented that the props on one of his boats costs more than any of my boats finished. If you keep a child supplied with crutches, he will never learn to walk without them. If you keep a designer supplied with rich clients , he will never learn to be resourceful. A designer who has always worked for a steady supply of rich clients is totally unqualified to design a boat for low income cruisers. A designer who has never cruised or built a boat on a low income is totally unqualified to design a boat for anyone but the rich. I don't believe Trevor owns or controls his money. It owns and controls him. People who feel they have to keep huge amounts of money rolling in to be happy,, just haven't figured life out, or haven't heard the Mexican fisherman story. They are more to be pitied than despised. I woke up this morning with the September sun flowing thru the hatches , with nothing on the agenda for weeks, except what I damned well feel like doing, listened to the traffic report on the radio and didn't envy any of those high income earners ,stuck in that traffic daily, one bit, not the numbers in their bank statement and certainly not their lifestyles. This life is not a rehearsal. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" wrote: > Good Words Brent - and thanks ! It's nice to have you on our side and > for you to share all that wonderful knowledge you have with us. > You're appreciated! > :) > Sugar > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I've had my debates with Trevor on the metalboat society's > > website.Very hard to deal with. I'd hate to ever become committed to > > having to deal with him or be dependent on him.You are not the > > numbskull here. Don't ever blame yourself for someone else's > > insecurity. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > > wrote: > > > Trevor had some other great quotes too like when I phoned and > > asked > > > in my ignorance if he thought as a designer that bilge keels could > > > fall off without adequate transverse framing. > > > > > > I was told straight away unless I was buying a plan from him that > > he > > > was not interested in speaking to me and that he made considerable > > > money and that his time was very valuable. > > > > > > I learned a lot about his greatness and little about boats. > > > > > > It felt very good to be treated like that (not!!) although he > > warmed > > > up when I said I was prepared to spend some money to get a boat. > > > > > > Does that make me numbskull #2? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > > > > > > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > > > > > > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be applied > > to > > > existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > > > > > > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no frames, > > the > > > plating is going to be pretty thick." > > > > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for small > > > craft" > > > > > > > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > > > > > > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have gotten > > > away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer arrangement > > and > > > are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with > > > longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I had > > > initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, looking > > at > > > the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are calling > > out > > > the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built with > > > this style construction.) " > > > > > > > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add > > > frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to the > > > boats. > > > > > > > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the boats > > > lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity and > > > reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't > > wished > > > his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > > > > > > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers have > > > historically built scale models and tested them to destruction to > > > prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone building > > > an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test the > > > hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > > > > > > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new > > > structural technique - a structural breakthrough that eliminates > > the > > > benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a difference, > > > then origami is simply a new building technique and will benefit > > > from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > > > > > > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and for > > > all? > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not > > > frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8884|8881|2005-09-24 19:29:12|Denis Buggy|Re: Oragami Boat Definition|good man cyrus you hit the angels and all . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: cyepler To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Oragami Boat Definition I have been following the rather lengthy thread on the definition of an oragami boat. The discussion seems to unravel around relatively minor points about what constitutes frames or frameless construction and what exactly are 'darts'. This reminds me of the old religious arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It seems to me that the salient point of oragami construction is the taking of preshaped flat sheets and applying force to bend or twist them into the desired shape and fastening them so they stay that way. The addition, or lack, of frames is a side issue. Maybe an important one, but does it rise to the level of defining oragami construction? The use of 'darts' or even properly shaped seperate panels also seems to fall into this category. I also see that building in metal is always specified in the definitions in this group. This group is about building metal oragami boats,and that is fine, but it seems that tortured plywood and the use of prelaid fiberglass sheets such as Derek Kelsal's KSS method are also oragami boats. Why limit the definition? Sure, for the purposes of this forum, it is fine to discuss metal oragami boats seperately, but the construction philosophy seems the same, just with different materials and fastening methods. Just putting in my two cents worth. Maybe I clarified things, maybe I just stirred the pot some more! This seems to be a more emotional issue for some people then I would have guessed. Cyrus Epler To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8885|8885|2005-09-25 00:19:38|Michael Geurink|Chame um médico|Chame um médico. Call a doc. Also means, It's officially time to panic now, you have really pooped it up this time. Hay, are there any other Portuguese speakers here on the list? I just joined a couple days ago from Amazonas, Brasil. If anyone needs translation of something, just let me know. Michael| 8886|8886|2005-09-25 00:24:15|khooper_fboats|Review of Alex Christie's Origami DVD|Alex may have given the impression in a message he posted the other day that his video might be tedious or amateurish--nothing could be further from the truth, Alex is just too self-effacing. This thing is superb! It is very well edited and where necessary it is well narrated. Truly this is not a promotional film or a documentary, it is an instructional video--Alex succeeds in being very detailed without ever being tedious, he has an excellent sense of when the novice viewer will need to be brought in for a closer look, the video clarity and quality is amazingly good, all in all I can't believe he is selling this thing for $50 (it is worth much more). Alex was right when he mentioned all the tricks Brent knows in working the steel, I kept having moments where I thought "I'd never have thought of that". Just that bag of tricks is enough to justify the price of the video. Seeing that hull come together so fast & easy with Swain working almost completely singlehandedly but never breaking a sweat is frosting on the cake. Hell even the titling is professional quality. There really are a lot of dogs in this movie though but they never do any work. Hats off to Alex, he has a lot to be proud of here. --Hoop| 8887|8765|2005-09-25 01:49:50|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Picky as this may seem... brentswain38 wrote: > Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it > is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the > bee or the formula? This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic not fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in the 1930s) theory was used it matched reality. Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, who made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It remains popular with those who scorn science. Chris| 8888|8840|2005-09-25 03:53:40|jim dorey|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:10:34 -0300, Gerd wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman > >> So; are very deep 'darts', so deep that the segments are >> unconnected still considered 'origami'? > > Good point. If you look at Van de Stadts basket mould hulls, you > find that the hull also is shaped without real frames (the basket is > just supposed to help asemlby and roughly adjust the shape) by > simply joining pre-cut hardchine panels. > Somehow I would not consider this origami, because it lack the efect > of the dart where the developable shapes switch direction and under > tension produce more or less compound shapes. > so, in the extreme, if you cut your darts longer and longer, you > come out the other end and have a hard-chine hull ;-) > My darts for example are longer than the ones on Brents hulls, and > Greg's hull have more darts and even between the chines look much > rounder than true chined sections(possibly due to other mechanic > qualities of the alloy). I think that future work will show that > hulls can get much fairer, have less knuckels and and can produce > many diufferent shapes by inventing new dart patterns and also by > handling the bending sequence and directions differently. > > Gerd maybe cutting a circle out at the knuckle, then filling with some sledge hammered sections? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8889|8881|2005-09-25 04:04:12|jim dorey|Re: Oragami Boat Definition|On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 16:31:16 -0300, cyepler wrote: > I have been following the rather lengthy thread on the definition of > an oragami boat. The discussion seems to unravel around relatively > minor points about what constitutes frames or frameless construction > and what exactly are 'darts'. This reminds me of the old religious > arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. back in the 80's somebody used a laser of some sort, maser, electron beam, can't remember, to put 3 million on, got some verification, then lost the pin. was probably a hoax, but might not have been, it was too long ago to remember every detail. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8890|8885|2005-09-25 11:08:53|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Chame um médico|Michael I am finishing up a 39' steel Barros here in Florianopolis. Don't know if you have the same problems finding supplies, up in the area you live, that I do? My wire supplier has never heard of a dip for nozzles. He suggested soap. Gerald| 8891|8840|2005-09-25 14:12:06|brentswain38|Re: Beginning an origami definition...|A guy in Los Angeles used to cut circles out, but gave up that technique. I've found that knuckles can be minimised or eliminated by scoring the plate about 6 inches beyond the cut, about halfway thru with a grinder. Then when pulling the seams together , begin by tapping the score with a sledgehammer, being careful not to leave hammer marks on the plate. This can also be done after the hull has been built,before painting and foaming , making for a much more gradual transition from curve to chine. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:10:34 -0300, Gerd wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman > > > >> So; are very deep 'darts', so deep that the segments are > >> unconnected still considered 'origami'? > > > > Good point. If you look at Van de Stadts basket mould hulls, you > > find that the hull also is shaped without real frames (the basket is > > just supposed to help asemlby and roughly adjust the shape) by > > simply joining pre-cut hardchine panels. > > Somehow I would not consider this origami, because it lack the efect > > of the dart where the developable shapes switch direction and under > > tension produce more or less compound shapes. > > so, in the extreme, if you cut your darts longer and longer, you > > come out the other end and have a hard-chine hull ;-) > > My darts for example are longer than the ones on Brents hulls, and > > Greg's hull have more darts and even between the chines look much > > rounder than true chined sections(possibly due to other mechanic > > qualities of the alloy). I think that future work will show that > > hulls can get much fairer, have less knuckels and and can produce > > many diufferent shapes by inventing new dart patterns and also by > > handling the bending sequence and directions differently. > > > > Gerd > > maybe cutting a circle out at the knuckle, then filling with some sledge > hammered sections? > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ | 8892|8765|2005-09-25 15:27:06|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Are we back to steel versus alloy? It seems rather silly to me, as they are both fine materials and there are tons of examples of alloy surviving and steel failing. Anecdotes prove nothing, and are often used to mislead the naive and unwary, which is why they are often banned in advertising. I don't see the point in being dogmatic. We do alloy or steel to suit the customer. http://origamimagic.com/articles/economics%20-%20steel%20or%20alloy.htm http://origamimagic.com/articles/economics%20-%20build%20or%20buy.htm The scantling rules exist precisely because thousands of boats - full sized and models have been built in metal over the years and tested to destruction. These results have shown how to improve performance and reduce costs without sacrificing strength. By your own example of the narrow panels supporting each other, a single chine conventional boat is stronger than a single chine origami boat, because the panels in the ends are narrower if the chines are full length, and thus serve to support each other. This is an important result, because by the same logic you have put forward that shows multi-chine hulls are stronger than single chine hulls, you have now shown that origami hulls are inherently weaker than conventional hulls with full length chines. Build a single chine origami model and press in on the hull. We have done this. There a numerous weak areas that could be strengthened by framings. Press in on the topsides or bottoms. The hull does not just collapse locally, it collapses over a large area - as much as 1/3 the hull length - even when the chines remain in place. This is why span length is a critical component of the strength of the longitudinals. They are not simply stiffeners to prevent buckling. They are longitudinal frames. The simplest way to improve the performance and capacity of origami is to make the boats stronger, so that they can be made lighter without sacrificing safety. The weight savings will reduce costs because less materials will be required, and the weight savings will reduce the size of gear required to power/sail the boat, resulting in further savings. Since it is dead simple to install longitudinal frames in origami, and since you can install transverse girders/bulkheads on furnishing boundaries for almost zero cost, and since these transverse members make it simple to hang the rest of the interior in a way that it can also contribute structurally, this provides a simple means to build origami boats significantly stronger, allowing them to be made much lighter. One major benefit of locating transverse bulkheads/girders as ends on the furnishing boundaries is to eliminate furring strips. Furring strips do nothing to contribute to the strength of a boat. They are a source of corrosion and rot if moisture gets behind them as the furnishings work and the boat rolls. You should never have wood against the metal shell of a boat and it is unnecessary. Eliminate furring strips entirely and mount the furnishings to the transverse furnishing ends. This keeps all wood inside the hull above the foam, minimizing rot and corrosion. Greg Elliott Multi-chine origami is that it is not multi-chine - it is multi-dart. The dart above the water is simply covered with a rub-rail and does not show. Instead it adds to the illusion of a round shape. Our hulls certainly look rounder than single chine hulls and are stronger for the weight. The dart serves to strengthen and protect the topsides exactly where they pound against docks, pilings, other boats, etc. I've cruised with and without a rub-rail. A properly designed rub-rail is much simpler to maintain than the unprotected topsides. ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > Multi chine is no doubt stronger, but I've never liked the ugliness > of a chine above the waterline. A single chine hull with all chines > below the waterline can be hard to distinguish from a round bilged > boat, especially with conic ends. This is not true of a multi chine > hull with a chine unavoidably showing above the waterline. > It would be foolish to suggest that a design which has survived 16 > days in 8 ft surf on a Mexican beach, a 14 knot collision with a > steel barge , a collision with a freighter , and pounding accross > 200 meters of Fijian coral reef is of inadequate strength. Such > punishment would have demolished an aluminium hull. > The way the many parts of a hull and deck support each other, the > only model which is relevant is a model of the entire hull and deck. > A simple piece of paper is totally irrelevant, and tells us nothing. > Even on a single chine hull, the distance between strong points, > like chines and decks, is less than the normal spacing between > transverse frames on a framed hull. > I'd suggest that you either build a sheet metal model of one of > your hulls, then try to distort it , or put a hydraulic jack between > one of the chines on a hull with no transverse frames, or > bulkheads, and the deck edge and try to distort it that way.You'll > learn a lot, quickly.There is no cleaer example of how the various > parts act as bulkheads and support each other, or the irrelevance of > transverse frames and bulkheads. > Too many metal boats have been grossly overbuilt with irrelevant > parts, because desighners have looked at the various parts in > isolation rather than the structure as a whole. If designers would > simply build light sheet metal model of one of their hulls and see > first hand how it all works, mathematical formula wouldn't produce > such overweight boats that they are mislead to believe that smaller > boats are impractical in steel. > Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it > is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the > bee or the formula? > In school I was told that a bee has a maximum speed of 4 mph, yet I > commonly see them flying into a 25 knot headwind.Could the bee have > it wrong ? Surely the experts can't be wrong. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> By your example, multi-chine origami is stronger than single chine > origami >> because the spacing between the chines and deck, and chines > themselves is >> closer. I agree. >> >> Multi-chine origami is much stronger than single chine, which > aside from >> shape is why we recommend it. As most boats involve a couple of > years >> effort to complete, the extra day or two it takes to build a multi- > chine >> hull offers great benefits at almost no cost. >> >> The paper model is accurate and shows the effects of increasing > the span >> length. Simply cut the paper into narrower strips if you want to > model >> the effect you are describing. Does it make the arch better able > to >> support itself longitudinally? The answer is No. >> >> The reason for this is that hull strength is a combination of > transverse and >> longitudinal strength. Cutting the panel into thinner strips > (multi-chine) >> makes the panels better supported transversely, which increases > the hull >> strength. However there is a limit to this, with the benefits > dropping off >> rapidly past 3 chines. >> >> To further increase the strength of the hull - without increasing > the plate >> thickness - a simple method is to reduce the span length of the > longitudinal >> framing. Because this is an inverse square function, just a few > transverse >> bulkheads/girders add fantastic strength to the boat. Because the >> bulkheads/girders can be located on furnishing boundaries they can > be made >> virtually zero cost. >> >> Thus, we recommend multi-chines and transverse bulkheads/girders > because >> they result in a significantly stronger hulls with almost no > effort or cost. >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 12:48 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling >> >> >> > The length of the arch is not the only factor affecting strength. >> > The width of the unsupported arch is also a factor. This is the >> > distance between the deck, and the chine, both effectively ,fully >> > welded steel bulkheads. It's the combination of the arch and the >> > space between the chines and or deck and chine that give the > origami >> > boat it's strength. The paper model you describe doesn't have the >> > relatively closely spaced support of deck and chine to help > maintain >> > the arch. >> > Brent >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> The curve of the hull from sheer to centerline forms an arch in > a >> > round >> >> bilged boat. In a chine boat it also forms an arch, though not > as >> > smooth. >> >> Similarly, the longitudinal curve of a hull forms an arch. >> >> >> >> Build an arch. The longer you build it, the less weight it can >> > support, >> >> unless you increase the thickness of the material or add > framing. >> > As the >> >> arch gets longer, if you maintain the same thickness of material >> > you will >> >> quickly reach a point at which the arch cannot support its own >> > weight. It >> >> will buckle and collapse. >> >> >> >> Try it. Take a piece of ordinary A4 paper and hold it > lengthwise >> > in your >> >> hands so that it forms an arch - no problem. You can even get > it >> > to hold up >> >> a small weight like an eraser. >> >> >> >> Now, tape/glue 3 pieces of A4 paper together lengthwise and hold >> > them in an >> >> arch. Use lap joints so the paper is full strength. This 3 to > 1 >> > ratio is >> >> very close to the ratio between transverse and longitudinal > frame >> > length in >> >> a boat. You will find that the arch has a hard time holding its >> > own weight, >> >> let alone the weight of an eraser. >> >> >> >> This has been know at least since Romans times. They could not >> > build arches >> >> past a certain size. Instead they used lots of little arches. >> >> >> >> This is the same principle in framing. Lots of short transverse >> > frames can >> >> support much more than the same weight of longitudinal frames. > If >> > you want >> >> to use longitudinal frames without losing hull strength, you > need >> > to support >> >> them in the middle. How you support them to minimize stress >> > risers is with >> >> a girder or bulkhead. >> >> >> >> How much hull strength do you lose with unsupported longitudinal >> > framing? >> >> It depends on your scantlings. Assume a conventionally framed >> > metal boat >> >> relies 50% on its frames and 50% on the curve of the plating for >> > support. >> >> In most boats the length of the longitudinals is more than 3 > times >> > the >> >> length of the transverse frames. This makes them about 10 times >> > less >> >> effective for a give frame size (inverse square). >> >> >> >> As such, using longitudinal framing in place of transverse >> > framing, without >> >> transverse support would reduce our hull strength to 50% + > (50% / >> > 10) = 55%. >> >> Many conventionally framed steel hulls have sufficient corrosion >> > allowance >> >> that they can operate at 55% of their original strength. This > is >> > the most >> >> obvious explanation why origami hulls are able to make use of >> > longitudinal >> >> framing in spite of the loss of hull strength. >> >> >> >> Meta yachts overcome this problem by increasing the hull >> > thickness, which is >> >> really only practical in alloy. Our method allows you to > overcome >> > this >> >> problem without increasing the hull thickness, making it > practical >> > in steel >> >> as well. >> >> >> >> Nature figured it first. Our rib cage is oriented on the short >> > axis because >> >> this is the strongest way to build for a given weight. Even in >> > fish who >> >> don't use their ribs for breathing. What we have done is to > come >> > up with a >> >> method that allows you to build origami boats on the long axis >> > without a >> >> loss of strength or a weight penalty, thus allowing origami > boats >> > to >> >> overcome one of the major objections against them. >> >> >> >> The group can continue to sit here, month after month, arguing >> > that origami >> >> is right and everyone else is wrong and no progress will result. >> > The vast >> >> majority of designers, builders and owners are not going to > accept >> > that >> >> origami is some sort of voodoo that can ignore the laws of >> > nature. Or, we >> >> can incorporate a few small changes that will significantly >> > increase the >> >> strength of origami to match accepted standards and end the >> > discussion. We >> >> have chosen the second approach. >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "brentswain38" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:04 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling >> >> >> >> >> >> > The fact that the longitudinals ar running along, and thus >> >> > maintaining the longitudinal curve of the hull plate, makes > them >> > far >> >> > more effective than transverse framing, and thus they can be a >> >> > smaller section and still be structurally more effective. Span >> > length >> >> > for longitudinals is simply enough length to incorporate > enough >> > of >> >> > the curve ,as the curve supports the longitudinal the way a > chine >> >> > does, but far more effectively. >> >> > I've found that pipes between the inside deck edges and the > chine >> >> > are extremely effective in the mast area, far more effective >> > than >> >> > bulkheads as they triangulate between themselves and the hull >> > plate >> >> > with it's longitudinal curves. >> >> > >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> Hi Gerd, >> >> >> >> >> >> If you take scantlings for transverse only, stringerless >> > framing - >> >> > the span >> >> >> length of these frames is 1/2 the girth of the hull. If you > run >> >> > the >> >> >> longitudinals in origami the same size as these frames, on > the >> > same >> >> > spacing, >> >> >> with structural bulkheads/girders on centers to match the 1/2 >> >> > girth, you are >> >> >> going to be very close to the same strength and stiffness as >> >> > the "transverse >> >> >> only" framed boats. >> >> >> >> >> >> 2-3 structural bulkheads/girders should be about right, >> > depending >> >> > on the >> >> >> boat. These can typically be incorporated into the mast > support >> >> > and >> >> >> furnishing without weight or interior space penalty, and > mounted >> >> > off the >> >> >> skin to avoid compromising puncture resistance. >> >> >> >> >> >> This provides a quick way to confirm the scantlings for > origami >> >> > with little >> >> >> if any calculations. Origami and conventional boats are of >> > similar >> >> > shape, >> >> >> and can expect about the same amount of support from the >> > plating. >> >> > Without >> >> >> the transverse elements, the origami boat will be weaker than >> > the >> >> >> conventionally framed boat, because of the increased span >> > length of >> >> > the >> >> >> longitudinals, unless the hull plating was thicker and the > boats >> >> > heavier. >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Gerd" >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:00 PM >> >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Origami shape and Scantling >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Good points Greg. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Actally it would be interesting to do more research > regarding >> >> >> > origami-specific scantling. For the moment, and within the >> > bounds >> >> > of >> >> >> > cruising yacht requirements I would say though that > scantling >> > an >> >> >> > origami hull as if it was traditional hard chine would be > ok >> > and >> >> >> > result in a slightly stronger hull due to more or less >> > compound >> >> >> > curve. But I do not hink that there is a real difference, > as >> > the >> >> >> > part of the hull most likely to take stresses from > grounding >> > is in >> >> >> > the amidships area around the darts where it's pretty much > a >> > hard >> >> >> > chine hull. With the same logic you would arrive a higher >> >> > scantling >> >> >> > when converting a fully round chine hull to origami... > (remark, >> >> > this >> >> >> > is NOT the old story about frames or no frames here.. just >> >> >> > comparative scantling hard/round/origami!) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I do not think that origami is significantly stronger per > se. >> >> >> > Reducing the scantling would need to be done very carfully > and >> >> >> > calculated. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Where I see the biggest possible improvements is in working >> > the >> >> >> > shapes, the darts and finding proper mathematical and >> > practical >> >> >> > procedures to get sweeter lines, less knuckles as well as >> >> > solutions >> >> >> > for different hullshapes. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I do not think that our current patterns with darts cut > from >> > the >> >> >> > middle are already the end of the road. There must be other >> >> >> > combinations, both for our type of hulls as well as for >> > completely >> >> >> > different project, like long and narrow cat hull, rounded >> > sterns, >> >> >> > long integrated keels or semi-displacement motor hulls. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > you mention an article by Gary Noble Curtis - where can > that >> > be >> >> >> > seen? do you have it? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > so you were on the diesel duck - the older I get, the more >> >> >> > interesting I find these boats, even ifI still pretend I > will >> > get >> >> > my >> >> >> > kicks sitting on an open deck wearing goggles against the > icy >> >> > spray. >> >> >> > At the end of the watch I will probably have to drag my > aching >> >> > back >> >> >> > below and have my wife rub tiger balm all over it ;-) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Gerd >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Gerd, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> New Years I flew out to SE Asia on the heels of the >> > Tsunami. I >> >> >> > was in >> >> >> >> Malaysia and the Philippines sailing and diving on a 50 > foot >> >> > alloy >> >> >> > cat. I >> >> >> >> also was aboard Mandarin, the first Diesel Duck out of Sea >> > Horse >> >> >> > Marine in >> >> >> >> China. In Subic I visited with a long time > builder/friend to >> >> >> > review what it >> >> >> >> would take to build origami boats in PI. After, I was in >> >> > Barbados >> >> >> > on >> >> >> >> business and then in Hawaii for a vacation with the wife > and >> > kids >> >> >> > and >> >> >> >> finally back in Vancouver where I'm working on a new alloy >> > boat >> >> >> > and catching >> >> >> >> up with friends. Its a tough life I realize, but someone >> > has to >> >> >> > do it. I >> >> >> >> made the mistake of taking my own advice :). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I like Gerr's approach. His scantlings are easy to use, > well >> >> >> > accepted. It >> >> >> >> is a simple method to calculate what is required to bring > an >> >> >> > origami boat up >> >> >> >> to a recognized standard. I see a lot of potential for >> > origami >> >> > but >> >> >> >> currently it suffers from two problems: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Shape >> >> >> >> 2. Scantlings >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Michael Kasten wrote an article in MBS that commented on > the >> >> >> > limitations of >> >> >> >> the shapes available to origami boats. The vast majority > of >> >> >> > designers, >> >> >> >> builders, and owners do not have a high regard for origami >> > boats >> >> >> > because >> >> >> >> what they have seen in origami is rather crude shapes that >> >> > haven't >> >> >> > been >> >> >> >> improved upon much in 20 years. I've been working with >> > Michael >> >> > to >> >> >> > expand on >> >> >> >> this, and have written an article which I believe will >> > appear in >> >> >> > the next >> >> >> >> MBS. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/shapes.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Beyond shape, scantlings remain the biggest challenge to > the >> >> >> > acceptance of >> >> >> >> origami. Metal boats are well understood from an > engineering >> >> >> > point of view >> >> >> >> and origami boats follow the same rules of nature as all >> > other >> >> >> > metal boats. >> >> >> >> As such, scantlings can be determined to conform to >> > recognized >> >> >> > standards and >> >> >> >> Geer provides a simple means to do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Most designers, builders and owners will have nothing to > do >> > with >> >> > a >> >> >> > boat that >> >> >> >> does not meet some recognized standard. We have adapted >> > Gerr to >> >> >> > our designs >> >> >> >> and have found that with careful review we have been able > to >> >> >> > produce >> >> >> >> lighter, stronger boats with his scantlings than the >> >> >> > existing "rules of >> >> >> >> thumb" for origami. It is fairly simple to model > different >> >> >> >> hull/longitudinal combinations using Gerr as a starting >> > point, to >> >> >> > improve >> >> >> >> the stiffness and strength of origami while minimizing >> > weight. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://origamimagic.com/articles/sections.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To me, the way forward in origami is to stop trying to >> > justify >> >> > the >> >> >> > status >> >> >> >> quo and eliminate the limitations of origami: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1 Develop new hull shapes to show the beauty and scope of >> > the >> >> >> > technique. >> >> >> >> 2 Develop scantlings through the adaptation of recognized >> >> >> > standards. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The market value of every origami boat is limited by the >> > size of >> >> >> > the market. >> >> >> >> So long as origami boats are not well accepted by the >> > majority of >> >> >> > designers, >> >> >> >> builders and owners their value will be lower than it > should >> > be. >> >> >> > We can >> >> >> >> remedy this by using Gerr to improve our own boats. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A great looking origami boat, stiff, strong, and light - >> > quick >> >> > and >> >> >> > easy to >> >> >> >> build, that meets or exceeds standards - is what we are >> > aiming >> >> > for. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Elliott >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8893|8830|2005-09-25 17:02:48|claudepoitras|Re: Fw: Trevor Bolt? trawler.ca|I would like to hear the Mexican Fisherman Story. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > In my debates with Trevor, he once commented that the props on one > of his boats costs more than any of my boats finished.......... > People who feel they have to keep huge amounts of money rolling > in to be happy, just haven't figured life out, or haven't heard > the Mexican fisherman story............. | 8894|8894|2005-09-25 19:37:00|mickeyolaf|Epoxy Fillers|Any member(s) advise of a 2 part epoxy filler/fairing compound they have had good luck with ie sticking well to aluminum. There seems to be about a dozen different two part epoxies out there. Some with blushes, some without. All have the same hype but I've read some don't stick well to metal ie don't like the expansion/contraction of aluminum. I've also heard you can strengthen epoxy with a product called mini fibers. Anybody used this stuff with success fairing out? No cracks, separation? I'm painting with 2 coats of 2pt e/primer then 2 coats 2pt e/paint then Awlgrip. There seems to be two schools of thought on painting. One says to fair out after the epoxy primer is on and the other school says fair out the etched/sanded aluminum then prime and paint. Any comments? I've put two pictures of "Andes" in the photos. Named for the troopship which carried the Seaforth Highlanders from Hailifax to England. She sailed back and forth across the Atlantic for five years of the war and never caught a torpedo. A lucky name.| 8895|8765|2005-09-25 20:20:34|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|What is science? Think of a dog chasing a rabbit. If the dog runs to where the rabbit is, by the time he gets there, the rabbit will have moved. If he now runs to where the rabbit moved to, by the time he gets there the rabbit will have moved again. No matter how many times you repeat this process, the dog will only get closer to the rabbit, he will never catch it. The only way the dog can catch the rabbit is to aim for the point the rabbit will be when the dog gets there. Thus, to catch a rabbit, the dog must be able to predict how a rabbit moves, so he can figure out where the rabbit will be in the future, and aim for that point. Science is simply our name for a set of rules that allow us to predict how things will behave, along with a method to discover those rules. Boat scantlings are simply an easy to use means to deliver a predictable strength for a boat. You can build boats by aiming for the rabbit, and making them stronger when/if they break. However, how would you ever know if the boats were truly strong enough - if there wasn't a failure looming tomorrow or the day after or the day after that? Or you could use science to predict how the boat will behave, under circumstances you could never hope to test them under, and be confident they will be strong enough if someone one day has the misfortune to run into those circumstances. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lasdauskas" To: Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > Picky as this may seem... > > brentswain38 wrote: > > >> Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it >> is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the >> bee or the formula? > > This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble > bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly > that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; > thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic not > fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in the > 1930s) theory was used it matched reality. > > Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, who > made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how > stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It remains > popular with those who scorn science. > > Chris > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8896|8894|2005-09-25 20:39:13|Jerry walker|Re: Epoxy Fillers|There is a two part epoxy filler called Polly Fil that you can buy thru Aircraft Spruce. I have used it to fill dents on aircraft. My partner and I sanded the area and wiped it down good with Allumiprep which is phosphoric acid. You can also buy Allimiprep from Aircraft Spruce. The stuff sticks like a whif of scandel on a Republican and is easy to sand. Jerry Walker >From: "mickeyolaf" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Epoxy Fillers >Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:36:56 -0000 > >Any member(s) advise of a 2 part epoxy filler/fairing compound they have >had good luck >with ie sticking well to aluminum. There seems to be about a dozen >different two part >epoxies out there. Some with blushes, some without. All have the same hype >but I've read >some don't stick well to metal ie don't like the expansion/contraction of >aluminum. > >I've also heard you can strengthen epoxy with a product called mini fibers. >Anybody used >this stuff with success fairing out? No cracks, separation? > >I'm painting with 2 coats of 2pt e/primer then 2 coats 2pt e/paint then >Awlgrip. There >seems to be two schools of thought on painting. One says to fair out after >the epoxy >primer is on and the other school says fair out the etched/sanded aluminum >then prime >and paint. Any comments? > >I've put two pictures of "Andes" in the photos. Named for the troopship >which carried the >Seaforth Highlanders from Hailifax to England. She sailed back and forth >across the >Atlantic for five years of the war and never caught a torpedo. A lucky >name. > > | 8897|8765|2005-09-26 02:06:20|Paul Cotter|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|I’m a scientist and I have never heard science described that way. Although elements of your definition are not false, as a whole it omits some crucial aspects of science. As for the dog and rabbit scenario, that might offend someone, the dog or scientist I don’t know. I think you have defined engineering, which is sometimes based on science, sometimes not. I come from a family of engineers and I often chide (lightheartedly, of course) them for rather lax standards when it comes to rigorous analysis of tests, or study design. I don’t have anything against engineering, but it is much better backed up with empiricism. I think this debate has occurred many time in this group. A long history of successful product (whether boats or bicycles) with improvements made along the way in construction technique or design is perhaps the best. Testing and design can take many forms, all of which hold some value. But it is pretty darn hard to argue against a proven track record. (My engineer brother does a lot of testing for Honda. He was recently complaining about the lack of engineering the company does. He thought they could improve their product if they engineered more. Apparently, they place a lot of emphasis on testing, not engineering. When something breaks, they change the design or material. I pointed out that if one was to compare the success of Honda with other automobile manufacturers, it was hard to argue against their strategy. I don’t want to start an argument about who builds the best cars, but Honda certainly has proved itself if reliability, resale value, and customer satisfaction are any indicators). Disclaimer: The previous comment in no way implies that I currently own, will own, or have owned and Honda product and I will neither confirm or deny allegations that I own any shares in said company. It is not an endorsement of Honda Motor Corportation nor a condemnation, only an example. It could have just has likely been Toyota or General Motors (well,…. Actually….. probably not General Motors….or Ford…or…….) Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@... Sent: 09/25/2005 4:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling What is science? Think of a dog chasing a rabbit. If the dog runs to where the rabbit is, by the time he gets there, the rabbit will have moved. If he now runs to where the rabbit moved to, by the time he gets there the rabbit will have moved again. No matter how many times you repeat this process, the dog will only get closer to the rabbit, he will never catch it. The only way the dog can catch the rabbit is to aim for the point the rabbit will be when the dog gets there. Thus, to catch a rabbit, the dog must be able to predict how a rabbit moves, so he can figure out where the rabbit will be in the future, and aim for that point. Science is simply our name for a set of rules that allow us to predict how things will behave, along with a method to discover those rules. Boat scantlings are simply an easy to use means to deliver a predictable strength for a boat. You can build boats by aiming for the rabbit, and making them stronger when/if they break. However, how would you ever know if the boats were truly strong enough - if there wasn't a failure looming tomorrow or the day after or the day after that? Or you could use science to predict how the boat will behave, under circumstances you could never hope to test them under, and be confident they will be strong enough if someone one day has the misfortune to run into those circumstances. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lasdauskas" To: Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > Picky as this may seem... > > brentswain38 wrote: > > >> Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it >> is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the >> bee or the formula? > > This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble > bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly > that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; > thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic not > fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in the > 1930s) theory was used it matched reality. > > Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, who > made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how > stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It remains > popular with those who scorn science. > > Chris > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8898|8894|2005-09-26 06:35:11|Denis Buggy|Re: Epoxy Fillers|mickyolaf we use sikaflex 252 and you can download a pdf for it by simply typing sikaflex 252 into google you should also look at sikaflex web and there is a co in the us which sell a lot of epoxy to the marine world it is jamestown distributors. they have a good site with a choice of products to use . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 12:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Epoxy Fillers Any member(s) advise of a 2 part epoxy filler/fairing compound they have had good luck with ie sticking well to aluminum. There seems to be about a dozen different two part epoxies out there. Some with blushes, some without. All have the same hype but I've read some don't stick well to metal ie don't like the expansion/contraction of aluminum. I've also heard you can strengthen epoxy with a product called mini fibers. Anybody used this stuff with success fairing out? No cracks, separation? I'm painting with 2 coats of 2pt e/primer then 2 coats 2pt e/paint then Awlgrip. There seems to be two schools of thought on painting. One says to fair out after the epoxy primer is on and the other school says fair out the etched/sanded aluminum then prime and paint. Any comments? I've put two pictures of "Andes" in the photos. Named for the troopship which carried the Seaforth Highlanders from Hailifax to England. She sailed back and forth across the Atlantic for five years of the war and never caught a torpedo. A lucky name. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8899|8765|2005-09-26 15:26:32|khooper_fboats|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > You can build boats by aiming for the rabbit, and making them stronger > when/if they break. However, how would you ever know if the boats were > truly strong enough - if there wasn't a failure looming tomorrow or the day > after or the day after that? > > Or you could use science to predict how the boat will behave, under > circumstances you could never hope to test them under, and be confident they > will be strong enough if someone one day has the misfortune to run into > those circumstances. I'm sorta confused. I think you've said that testing a boat to destruction gives only anecdotal evidence which ought to be ignored, and you've also said that testing many boats to destruction is how scantling rules are ascertained, and you've implied that scantling rules for framed boats are reliable. That seems contradictory. Now I think you're claiming that you can mathematically predict when frameless boats will fail. I'm not sure how you can do that and I'm confused about why you think empirical demonstrations should be disregarded (steel origami boats are not known to be holed in the real world), while calculations which may be known only by you should be accepted as true although they have not even been demonstrated, much less verified or shown to be predictive. Do you have reason to believe there is some significant chance that a framless boat will fail catastrophically in some way that would take everybody here by surprise? If so it would be courteous to tell us so. --Hoop| 8900|8765|2005-09-26 16:04:48|Carl Volkwein|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|Get the video, and let him borrow that too, we'll make a "convert" yet sae140 wrote: "I have nothing to sell and it's not about sales pitches... It's about physics." "I have nothing to flog, nothing to hide, no missionary feelings about any particular construction methods." With the greatest respect Gerd, this is not about 'you', and it's not about 'me' either - my understanding (which could be wrong, of course) is that one of the functions of this yahoo group is to help *promote* this method of hull construction - which is why I prefer the notion of a unique promotional point rather than a unique selling point ! I have a neighbour who planned to build a boat for his retirement, and duly bought a set of 'conventional' boat- building plans from Bruce Roberts. Ten years later, the plans are collecting dust in his loft. I asked why, and his reply was that there was simply too much work involved. Whether this work-assessment is accurate or not is actually not important, as there was a *perception* that there was too much work involved, and the guy was psychologically defeated before he had even bought any steel. I showed him a couple of card models of Origami hulls, and his eyes lit up. I lent him my copy of Brent's book. He now has renewed enthusiasm, as his perception of the work involved has now changed. Again, it doesn't much matter whether his assessment is accurate or not - his *perception* has changed; he now sees building his own boat as being a realistic project. But I was careful not to 'sell' him this idea - it simply sold itself. I mentioned the current dispute re: framing and his response was "but the hull doesn't have any frames - that's the whole point of it". I commented that the skin had stringers, and that the keels had reinforcing bars, and that these could be construed as being frames. "Naw" was his reply, "they're not frames." And so, for this one person at least, the frameless nature of an Origami hull was to be an important choice criterion - it was the unique promotional point I mentioned - in action. If you're going to create a definition for Origami construction - then it needs to be reasonably short - say less than a dozen words ? For the purposes of this post I just phoned my neighbour and asked how he would define an Origami boat. "One having a frameless steel hull" was his reply. So that's the *perception* he has taken away with him, accurate or not. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8901|8765|2005-09-26 16:16:20|Gerd|Re: hull stiffness thru stress-skin effect|??? ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > Get the video, and let him borrow that too, we'll make a "convert" yet > > sae140 wrote: > "I have nothing to sell and it's not about sales pitches... > It's about physics." > > "I have nothing to flog, nothing to hide, no missionary > feelings about any particular construction methods." > > With the greatest respect Gerd, this is not about 'you', and > it's not about 'me' either - my understanding (which could > be wrong, of course) is that one of the functions of this > yahoo group is to help *promote* this method of hull > construction - which is why I prefer the notion of a unique > promotional point rather than a unique selling point ! > > I have a neighbour who planned to build a boat for his > retirement, and duly bought a set of 'conventional' boat- > building plans from Bruce Roberts. Ten years later, the > plans are collecting dust in his loft. I asked why, and > his reply was that there was simply too much work involved. > Whether this work-assessment is accurate or not is actually > not important, as there was a *perception* that there was > too much work involved, and the guy was psychologically > defeated before he had even bought any steel. > > I showed him a couple of card models of Origami hulls, and > his eyes lit up. I lent him my copy of Brent's book. He > now has renewed enthusiasm, as his perception of the work > involved has now changed. Again, it doesn't much matter > whether his assessment is accurate or not - his *perception* > has changed; he now sees building his own boat as being a > realistic project. But I was careful not to 'sell' him this > idea - it simply sold itself. > > I mentioned the current dispute re: framing and his response > was "but the hull doesn't have any frames - that's the whole > point of it". I commented that the skin had stringers, and > that the keels had reinforcing bars, and that these could be > construed as being frames. "Naw" was his reply, "they're not > frames." > And so, for this one person at least, the frameless nature of > an Origami hull was to be an important choice criterion - it > was the unique promotional point I mentioned - in action. > > If you're going to create a definition for Origami construction > - then it needs to be reasonably short - say less than a dozen > words ? > For the purposes of this post I just phoned my neighbour and > asked how he would define an Origami boat. "One having a > frameless steel hull" was his reply. > So that's the *perception* he has taken away with him, accurate > or not. > > Colin > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8902|8765|2005-09-26 16:37:30|Alex Christie|Apples and Oranges|Just a thought, but it may be useful, as moderator, to point out to group members that we are comparing two very different styles of boats that have different engineering requirements. You can compare some aspects of origami boatbuilding at a basic level in both types of boats, but there are certain points in our examinations where we must step back and look at the differences in scale between the two. Greg's boats tend to be in the higher size range (50 and up) compared to Brent's (26 to 36, and a few 40 footers), and the ways and means of maintaining structural integrity in the different kinds of boats is of course going to be different. So you can see how we are partly falling into the trap of comparing apples to oranges here, even though the two designers are both using origami-style techniques for their boats. I for one think its great that each designer is able to fill a niche in the market, and there are many things to learn from each style. But while we are arguing here over engineering details, we should pop our heads up every now and then and go look at the real boats in real conditions of use, where will be astounded to learn that despite all our calculations there were some things which are still "under-engineered" and others which are "over-engineered". This is why there is more than one design of car out there since the advent of the Model T Ford, and also why the Space Shuttles are still being reworked and reviewed constantly in order to ensure more disasters do not befall their crews -- yet after all the best engineering money can buy, bits of foam STILL fall off, sometimes with tragic results. It just shows that engineering is an ongoing process, not a static approach. The strength and stiffness offered by Brent's scantlings are well suited to the size of boats built, and I think he already mentioned once how the longer the boat the shallower the curves along the length. So this means that a 50 footer, especially in the aluminum material that is often requested of Greg by his clients, is going to require a different approach than the shorter boats to Brent's designs, or else its structural integrity could be compromised when hard pressed. Again this is an instance where we must recognize that the difference in scale between the boats offered by the two designers must alter our approach, and how we should not get too caught up in picking over details between the two types when some aspects don't apply Brent's boatbuilding system appeals widely to those who could otherwise not afford to go offshore on a limited budget, whereas some of Greg's boats (but not all) may cost more and require a different economic status to entertain the idea of building, as well as requiring a higher set of skills to pull together. Admittedly, all boats cost money to build, but Brent's uncomplicated hull construction technique, which favours steel which any farm-boy or farm-girl can zap together, allows a completely different sector of society to get afloat that would otherwise be stuck ashore dreaming. Greg's boats also offer good things, and each type should be examined on its own merit. Alex| 8903|8903|2005-09-26 17:48:40|tazmannusa|steel prices in California|Just thought I would Let anybody know that was thinking about building a steel boat in central California, 10 gage black hot rolled steel is around .54 cents a pound $2.83 square foot This was a price from one of my supplyers in Bakersfield for a 6' x 20' sheet, he is still trying to come up with 6'x 28' sheets, I will repost if he does Anyway at these prices building the BS 26 hull,deck,and keel I figure around $2000 give or take a little (not to bad even for todays prices of steel) By the way does anybody know what happend to the outfit that was selling copperpoxy in Washington I checked ther web site and it say they only sell to dealers now and I tryed to call them and the recording said I cant call that number try again latter ? Tom| 8904|8765|2005-09-26 19:04:00|Denis Buggy|Re: Apples and Oranges|well said alex , my new computer does less than my old one and i cannot access the site can you please e mail me the email address for payment re the dvd to denis@... thanks denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Apples and Oranges Just a thought, but it may be useful, as moderator, to point out to group members that we are comparing two very different styles of boats that have different engineering requirements. You can compare some aspects of origami boatbuilding at a basic level in both types of boats, but there are certain points in our examinations where we must step back and look at the differences in scale between the two. Greg's boats tend to be in the higher size range (50 and up) compared to Brent's (26 to 36, and a few 40 footers), and the ways and means of maintaining structural integrity in the different kinds of boats is of course going to be different. So you can see how we are partly falling into the trap of comparing apples to oranges here, even though the two designers are both using origami-style techniques for their boats. I for one think its great that each designer is able to fill a niche in the market, and there are many things to learn from each style. But while we are arguing here over engineering details, we should pop our heads up every now and then and go look at the real boats in real conditions of use, where will be astounded to learn that despite all our calculations there were some things which are still "under-engineered" and others which are "over-engineered". This is why there is more than one design of car out there since the advent of the Model T Ford, and also why the Space Shuttles are still being reworked and reviewed constantly in order to ensure more disasters do not befall their crews -- yet after all the best engineering money can buy, bits of foam STILL fall off, sometimes with tragic results. It just shows that engineering is an ongoing process, not a static approach. The strength and stiffness offered by Brent's scantlings are well suited to the size of boats built, and I think he already mentioned once how the longer the boat the shallower the curves along the length. So this means that a 50 footer, especially in the aluminum material that is often requested of Greg by his clients, is going to require a different approach than the shorter boats to Brent's designs, or else its structural integrity could be compromised when hard pressed. Again this is an instance where we must recognize that the difference in scale between the boats offered by the two designers must alter our approach, and how we should not get too caught up in picking over details between the two types when some aspects don't apply Brent's boatbuilding system appeals widely to those who could otherwise not afford to go offshore on a limited budget, whereas some of Greg's boats (but not all) may cost more and require a different economic status to entertain the idea of building, as well as requiring a higher set of skills to pull together. Admittedly, all boats cost money to build, but Brent's uncomplicated hull construction technique, which favours steel which any farm-boy or farm-girl can zap together, allows a completely different sector of society to get afloat that would otherwise be stuck ashore dreaming. Greg's boats also offer good things, and each type should be examined on its own merit. Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8905|8905|2005-09-26 20:56:28|Gary|B S 36' for Sale|Change of plans, not going offshore. Looking for something coastal and samller. The boat was started in 2003 and launched 2005 professionally build by veteran craftsman of metal boats Evan Shaler to flawless detail. Yanmar 3 cyl 30 hp rebuild 2004 less than 200 hours. Professionally spray painted in and out plus sandblasted. All paints & epoxies top of line MC product. Serious enquires, will send more details & pics. $115K Cdn funds. Thanks... Gary| 8906|8903|2005-09-26 22:51:12|blueiceicle|Re: steel prices in California|Tom.. Sounds like thats a good deal. Im in Edmonton AB and my latest quote is 76cents a pound for 10g or 3/16th 44w. It might be cheaper for hot rolled but im not sure. I used to work for Samuel Steel in Nisku so thats what i got. However the dont have cut to length yet so it will cost more to have it sent out from Ontario. Im trying to get ahold of 30ft plate to build a 28ft swain. And on top of that no one in Edmonton that ive talked to deals with preprimed plate. As 99.9% of all steel used in Alberta is used for the oil industry, and its all sandblasted. Seems to be a costal thing. If anyone knows of a supplier that deals with pre primed id love to hear. So far Russel Steels is a no go and Samuel Steels too. Anyhow with the exchange rate i think your still getting a better deal. Just a though, if one could get ahold of 516 gr70 plate without breaking the bank. Wouldnt that be a better plate to go with instead of hot rolled, its pressure vessel grade, just not sure what the diffrence in characteristics are when it comes to using it for a boat. Jesse yes i know i cant spell worth a darn lol --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: > Just thought I would Let anybody know that was thinking about > building a steel boat in central California, 10 gage black hot rolled > steel is around .54 cents a pound $2.83 square foot This was a price > from one of my supplyers in Bakersfield for a 6' x 20' sheet, he is > still trying to come up with 6'x 28' sheets, I will repost if he does > Anyway at these prices building the BS 26 hull,deck,and keel I figure > around $2000 give or take a little (not to bad even for todays prices > of steel) > By the way does anybody know what happend to the outfit that was > selling copperpoxy in Washington I checked ther web site and it say > they only sell to dealers now and I tryed to call them and the > recording said I cant call that number try again latter ? > Tom | 8907|8903|2005-09-27 01:19:31|tom|Re: steel prices in California|Hello Jesse I havent heard of the grades of steel your talking about ,around here they just call it hot rolled or cold rolled for sheet steel, I think its considerd A-36 . might be that 99.9% of there buisness is farm related . The hot rolled that Im going to use is a mild steel low carbon content, From what I understand the higher carbon content steel is more prone to corrosion allthough I dont know if that makes mutch difference if its properly primed and painted But I do know from welding in the field for about 25 years that sometimes with the harder steels ie plow stock, T1 ect will crack before they bend and welding proceedures have to be right. I will call a couple steel supply places tommorow and see if they can get 516 gr70 and some info on it. preprimed would be nice but it doesnt seem to be an option around here only galvanized or plain steel and I would prefer to sandblast vs cutting and welding galvanized ----- Original Message ----- From: "blueiceicle" To: Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 7:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel prices in California > Tom.. > > Sounds like thats a good deal. > > Im in Edmonton AB and my latest quote is 76cents a pound for 10g or > 3/16th 44w. It might be cheaper for hot rolled but im not sure. I used > to work for Samuel Steel in Nisku so thats what i got. However the > dont have cut to length yet so it will cost more to have it sent out > from Ontario. Im trying to get ahold of 30ft plate to build a 28ft > swain. > > And on top of that no one in Edmonton that ive talked to deals with > preprimed plate. As 99.9% of all steel used in Alberta is used for the > oil industry, and its all sandblasted. > > Seems to be a costal thing. > > If anyone knows of a supplier that deals with pre primed id love to > hear. So far Russel Steels is a no go and Samuel Steels too. > > Anyhow with the exchange rate i think your still getting a better deal. > > Just a though, if one could get ahold of 516 gr70 plate without > breaking the bank. Wouldnt that be a better plate to go with instead > of hot rolled, its pressure vessel grade, just not sure what the > diffrence in characteristics are when it comes to using it for a boat. > > Jesse > > yes i know i cant spell worth a darn lol > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: >> Just thought I would Let anybody know that was thinking about >> building a steel boat in central California, 10 gage black hot > rolled >> steel is around .54 cents a pound $2.83 square foot This was a price >> from one of my supplyers in Bakersfield for a 6' x 20' sheet, he is >> still trying to come up with 6'x 28' sheets, I will repost if he does >> Anyway at these prices building the BS 26 hull,deck,and keel I > figure >> around $2000 give or take a little (not to bad even for todays > prices >> of steel) >> By the way does anybody know what happend to the outfit that was >> selling copperpoxy in Washington I checked ther web site and it say >> they only sell to dealers now and I tryed to call them and the >> recording said I cant call that number try again latter ? >> Tom > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8908|8903|2005-09-27 07:48:49|cirejay|Re: steel prices in California|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > > yes i know i cant spell worth a darn lol While some get bent out of shape (probably not enough darts) I think that what one has to say is more important than one's spelling or grammar. However, as I can't spell either, my typing sucks, and I'm slightly dyslexic, I just keep a WORD file open the whole time I'm online. It's easy enough to just copy from that into the reply. You should have seen what this looked like before WORD cleaned it up :-) eric S/V Nebaras| 8909|8905|2005-09-27 14:22:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: B S 36' for Sale|The Bones is also for sale. 40 foot triple chine steel, cutter rigged sloop with 33 HP Yanmar. 13.5 tons displacement. Bullet proof oversized alloy rig. Everything in good working condition. I've got 2 kids starting Uni and I'm shorebound for the next ?? years. Need the $$ for another project in the meanwhile. The boat is well proven, fast, simple and tough as nails with tons of cruising gear aboard. Lots of sails, lines and ground tackle. Full instruments, HF SSB and VHF, 2 epirbs, 2 handhelds, 2 binoculars, 2 compasses, 2 autopilots, 4 pumps, etc. Full set of tools and lots of spares. Integrated GPS and trim-tab autopilot. PC navigation computer, charts for entire world and worldwide HF email to the Internet - no cell range limitations. Liferaft, dinghy, 2hp motor. Lots more. She has been well maintained since launch and ready to go offshore on a moments notice. I sailed the Pacific and SE Asia for many years with my wife and kids aboard as a measure of the confidence you can place in this boat. Surveyed replacement value $120K Cdn with lots more into her than that. Will sell for $59K Cdn. Will consider trade for property. Delivery available. http://origamimagic.com/sale/lb39.htm Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary" To: Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 5:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] B S 36' for Sale > Change of plans, not going offshore. Looking for something coastal > and samller. The boat was started in 2003 and launched 2005 > professionally build by veteran craftsman of metal boats Evan Shaler > to flawless detail. Yanmar 3 cyl 30 hp rebuild 2004 less than 200 > hours. Professionally spray painted in and out plus sandblasted. All > paints & epoxies top of line MC product. Serious enquires, will send > more details & pics. $115K Cdn funds. > > Thanks... Gary > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8910|8174|2005-09-27 15:22:37|mickeyolaf|Aluminum mast for sale|Aluminum 6.5" tube mast for sale. 47'long, plus all fittings in 316 stainless, cutter masthead rig, aluminum spreaders, epoxy primed and epoxy painted white. For Swain 36. Located in Vancouver, BC. 778-837- 5725.| 8911|8765|2005-09-27 17:11:15|seeratlas|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Pollard makes a good point about the lilihood of transverse frames > causing the hull to tear, and how riverboats avoid having transverse > frames touch the hull skin at any point. > Brent > On several occasions I have remarked about my reticence to go alloy because of an incident I witnessed with a near megayacht trying to pull away from the dock and just barely grazing the stern quarter. It is entirely possible that it was the vertical framing that resulted in a slight gouging then a huge tear that proceeded to open up the side of the boat like a sardine can. The damage done must have been in the many tens of thousands of dollars, if not more. I have also seen several alu runabouts in the 20 to 23 foot range that have impacted something at speed. When hit near the curve of the bow they seem to absorb quite amazing amounts of energy, I've seen some really astounding dents with no split in the material, however, if whacked in the side, where the impact met with a frame, big tears appear. As a consequence, on the purely observational level, I'm in Brent's camp on this one. i.e. longitudinal impacts near a frame result in a stress riser that prevents further deformation of the sheet resulting in skin failure. seer| 8912|8830|2005-09-27 17:24:32|seeratlas|Re: Fw: Trevor Bolt? trawler.ca|Now THAT 'is' a good line lol., I would only offer this rephrasement in deference to certain 'ism's... ergo: "Barring reincarnation.....'This life is not a rehearsal'. heheheh seer ps, what mexican fisherman story are you referring to, Brent? I've heard maybe more than one? :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > This life is not a rehearsal. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > wrote: > > Good Words Brent - and thanks ! It's nice to have you on our side > and > > for you to share all that wonderful knowledge you have with us. > > You're appreciated! > > :) > > Sugar > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > I've had my debates with Trevor on the metalboat society's > > > website.Very hard to deal with. I'd hate to ever become > committed to > > > having to deal with him or be dependent on him.You are not the > > > numbskull here. Don't ever blame yourself for someone else's > > > insecurity. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > > > > wrote: > > > > Trevor had some other great quotes too like when I phoned and > > > asked > > > > in my ignorance if he thought as a designer that bilge keels > could > > > > fall off without adequate transverse framing. > > > > > > > > I was told straight away unless I was buying a plan from him > that > > > he > > > > was not interested in speaking to me and that he made > considerable > > > > money and that his time was very valuable. > > > > > > > > I learned a lot about his greatness and little about boats. > > > > > > > > It felt very good to be treated like that (not!!) although he > > > warmed > > > > up when I said I was prepared to spend some money to get a > boat. > > > > > > > > Does that make me numbskull #2? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Trevor Bolt has a guide to calculating boat strength. > > > > > > > > > > http://trawler.ca/whatsize.htm > > > > > > > > > > Trevors method is more difficult than Gerr, but can be > applied > > > to > > > > existing designs. He has some great quotes: > > > > > > > > > > "So, if numbskull no #1 wants to build a boat with no > frames, > > > the > > > > plating is going to be pretty thick." > > > > > "There is no rocket science in structural calculations for > small > > > > craft" > > > > > > > > > > boatdesign.net has this quote: > > > > > > > > > > "I see that many builders of alloy craft in the US have > gotten > > > > away from the conventional transverse frame/stringer > arrangement > > > and > > > > are using just a couple transverse frames or bulkheads with > > > > longitudinal framing welded to the hull plating. Although I > had > > > > initially assumed they necessarily used heavier plating, > looking > > > at > > > > the specs for Moose boats catamarans I see that they are > calling > > > out > > > > the same thicknesses I used. (These boats appear to be built > with > > > > this style construction.) " > > > > > > > > > > Boat building is a very competitive industry. They add > > > > frames/bulkheads for a reason. It adds tremendous strength to > the > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > > > Why make the boats stronger? Because it lets you make the > boats > > > > lighter for a given strength, increasing performance/capacity > and > > > > reducing costs. Where is the sailor that at some time hasn't > > > wished > > > > his/her boat was faster, costs less, or could carry more. > > > > > > > > > > A simple means exists to test this. Builders and engineers > have > > > > historically built scale models and tested them to destruction > to > > > > prove a concept. It is a simple enough matter for anyone > building > > > > an origami boat to build a scale model in sheet metal and test > the > > > > hull to destruction. Do bulkheads make any difference or not? > > > > > > > > > > If they don't, then origami is truly as advertised, a new > > > > structural technique - a structural breakthrough that > eliminates > > > the > > > > benefits of framing. However, if bulkheads do make a > difference, > > > > then origami is simply a new building technique and will > benefit > > > > from all the structural lesson learned in other boats. > > > > > > > > > > Who is going to take the challenge and prove this once and > for > > > > all? > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > ps: and as an added benefit, bulkheads and girders are not > > > > frames, so the boats can still be called "frameless" :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8913|8765|2005-09-27 17:31:08|seeratlas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Well, now....tho I only slept in a Holday Inn last night... :).... seems to my recollection that there is a bit more involved... you see, on the bumblebee's level, aerodynamics becomes more like fluid dynamics, to put it simply,, the bumblebee's motion thru the air is more akin to swimming thru a heavy fluid than flying a heavy plane thru air:) in truth, when adjudged that way, the theory, math, physics, and practice are all in harmony. In either event, the point Brent makes is the same and still valid, i.e. someone with 'credentials' made a completely wrong statement, er uh duh...like we don't see that often? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > Picky as this may seem... > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it > > is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the > > bee or the formula? > > This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble > bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly > that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; > thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic not > fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in the > 1930s) theory was used it matched reality. > > Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, who > made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how > stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It remains > popular with those who scorn science. > > Chris | 8914|8765|2005-09-27 17:54:22|seeratlas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|LOL seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Cotter" wrote: > I'm a scientist and I have never heard science described that way. > Although elements of your definition are not false, as a whole it omits > some crucial aspects of science. As for the dog and rabbit scenario, > that might offend someone, the dog or scientist I don't know. > > I think you have defined engineering, which is sometimes based on > science, sometimes not. I come from a family of engineers and I often > chide (lightheartedly, of course) them for rather lax standards when it > comes to rigorous analysis of tests, or study design. > > I don't have anything against engineering, but it is much better backed > up with empiricism. I think this debate has occurred many time in this > group. A long history of successful product (whether boats or bicycles) > with improvements made along the way in construction technique or design > is perhaps the best. Testing and design can take many forms, all of > which hold some value. But it is pretty darn hard to argue against a > proven track record. (My engineer brother does a lot of testing for > Honda. He was recently complaining about the lack of engineering the > company does. He thought they could improve their product if they > engineered more. Apparently, they place a lot of emphasis on testing, > not engineering. When something breaks, they change the design or > material. I pointed out that if one was to compare the success of Honda > with other automobile manufacturers, it was hard to argue against their > strategy. I don't want to start an argument about who builds the best > cars, but Honda certainly has proved itself if reliability, resale > value, and customer satisfaction are any indicators). > > Disclaimer: The previous comment in no way implies that I currently own, > will own, or have owned and Honda product and I will neither confirm or > deny allegations that I own any shares in said company. It is not an > endorsement of Honda Motor Corportation nor a condemnation, only an > example. It could have just has likely been Toyota or General Motors > (well,…. Actually….. probably not General Motors….or Ford…or…….) > > Paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of ge@e... > Sent: 09/25/2005 4:19 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > > What is science? > > Think of a dog chasing a rabbit. If the dog runs to where the rabbit > is, by > the time he gets there, the rabbit will have moved. If he now runs to > where > the rabbit moved to, by the time he gets there the rabbit will have > moved > again. No matter how many times you repeat this process, the dog will > only > get closer to the rabbit, he will never catch it. > > The only way the dog can catch the rabbit is to aim for the point the > rabbit > will be when the dog gets there. Thus, to catch a rabbit, the dog must > be > able to predict how a rabbit moves, so he can figure out where the > rabbit > will be in the future, and aim for that point. > > Science is simply our name for a set of rules that allow us to predict > how > things will behave, along with a method to discover those rules. Boat > scantlings are simply an easy to use means to deliver a predictable > strength > for a boat. > > You can build boats by aiming for the rabbit, and making them stronger > when/if they break. However, how would you ever know if the boats were > truly strong enough - if there wasn't a failure looming tomorrow or the > day > after or the day after that? > > Or you could use science to predict how the boat will behave, under > circumstances you could never hope to test them under, and be confident > they > will be strong enough if someone one day has the misfortune to run into > those circumstances. > > Greg Elliott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Lasdauskas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > > > > Picky as this may seem... > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > >> Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it > >> is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the > >> bee or the formula? > > > > This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble > > bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly > > that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; > > thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic > not > > fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in > the > > 1930s) theory was used it matched reality. > > > > Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, > who > > made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how > > stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It > remains > > popular with those who scorn science. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > British > columbia+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=Q4lYYtlNW0FQO > 44ezC2G3Q> columbia canada > Vancouver > a+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=TVvK0pZk9dkmygRA0heg > Nw> island > Yacht > =Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=lCcJSZ2V25esT9G6EcjB6g> > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > _____ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8915|8765|2005-09-27 17:56:15|seeratlas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|I don't know greg, :) If I was going hunting rabbits i might choose to go with the guy who's shot 30 years of rabbits as opposed to the guy who designed a new gun :) sorry, couldn't resist:) On your previous quote tho, what you say makes a lot of intuitive sense regarding the placing of frames on the longitudinals thus eliminating the furring strips. But wouldn't the purpose of any transverse frames be primarily to stabilize the hull from any torquing or twisting? And within the size of boats that Brent prefers, the 30 to 40'ish footers, is there any evidence of any torquing or twisting from the essentially stressed skin monocoque structures he ends up with now? It is not hard to imagine that say on your sixty footer, a whole new set of problems would arise necessitating the exact path you have chosen to avoid unnecessary increases in plate thickness by adding additional chines and framing. Lastly, I note that all but one of your designs are essentially what I call 'spoon' bottomed boats, very light, very fast, but have you noticed any pounding in a seaway? My own experience in fast light hulls in deep water is not entirely favorable, as after about 3 days, the surfing excitement gives way to distinct discomfort and after about a week I always seem to swear I've had enough:) Maybe somewhere along the way I just got old :) but to me, its almost like thrashing into a headsea as to bearing off downwind, the change in motion is more than worth a bit of extra time on the water, especially with the change in motion heheheh. Clearly for weekend sailors and wannabe racers, my criteria would be irrelevant, but I can assure you, for people wanting to cross big water on small boats, almost invariably people who've done it more than once, go looking for easier motion boats, usually translating to a few more feet than they originally intended, the issue almost always coming down to cost. As you pointed out some months ago, you can buy an awful lot of boats on the downhill side of any big crossing...and locate them by watching for couples coming off a boat and imediately heading for different bars LOL :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > What is science? > > Think of a dog chasing a rabbit. If the dog runs to where the rabbit is, by > the time he gets there, the rabbit will have moved. If he now runs to where > the rabbit moved to, by the time he gets there the rabbit will have moved > again. No matter how many times you repeat this process, the dog will only > get closer to the rabbit, he will never catch it. > > The only way the dog can catch the rabbit is to aim for the point the rabbit > will be when the dog gets there. Thus, to catch a rabbit, the dog must be > able to predict how a rabbit moves, so he can figure out where the rabbit > will be in the future, and aim for that point. > > Science is simply our name for a set of rules that allow us to predict how > things will behave, along with a method to discover those rules. Boat > scantlings are simply an easy to use means to deliver a predictable strength > for a boat. > > You can build boats by aiming for the rabbit, and making them stronger > when/if they break. However, how would you ever know if the boats were > truly strong enough - if there wasn't a failure looming tomorrow or the day > after or the day after that? > > Or you could use science to predict how the boat will behave, under > circumstances you could never hope to test them under, and be confident they > will be strong enough if someone one day has the misfortune to run into > those circumstances. > > Greg Elliott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Lasdauskas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami shape and Scantling > > > > Picky as this may seem... > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > >> Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it > >> is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the > >> bee or the formula? > > > > This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble > > bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly > > that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; > > thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic not > > fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in the > > 1930s) theory was used it matched reality. > > > > Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, who > > made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how > > stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It remains > > popular with those who scorn science. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8916|8916|2005-09-27 19:30:10|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Cleats|What size stainless rod is sufficient for 8-10 inch cleats? I'm building small pieces of a BS26 and I'm trying to keep a scrounge yard list. Thanks Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8917|8765|2005-09-27 20:49:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|Transverse member such as bulkheads, frames, and tank ends welded to the hull are all a source of tears in collisions, in both alloy and steel. The problem results from the collision pushing the skin in, as well as pushing the transverse member aft. This stretches the skin immediately ahead of the transverse member until the skin tears. The solution in origami is to weld the transverse members directly to the top of the longitudinals. Do not notch the transverse members - simply fillet weld them directly to the tops of the longitudinal "L"'s or "T"'s. Quick and simple to do, especially in the chined sections. There is a secondary problem specific to alloy. Many builders have used 5052 to build alloy boats because it is often cheaper and it is easy to shape. Especially when building round hulls. The downside of 5052 is that these hulls are also extremely easy to dent and will tear with much less force than true marine alloys such as 5086 and 5083. We use 5086 for alloy hulls and decks. It is surprisingly stiff and strong. It feels a lot like steel, without the weight. 5086 is actually harder to dent than mild steel of the same thickness. Yes, you read it right. In all tempers, a 1/4 inch plate of 5086 is as hard as, or harder to dent than a 1/4 inch plate of mild steel. Since alloy boats are made 50% thicker than steel, in 5086 they are much harder to dent than steel. 5086 is not what most people think of when they think aluminum. http://www.aluminum.org/Content/NavigationMenu/The_Industry/-Sheet,_Plate/Aluminum_Boats/AluminumBoats.doc http://www.metalsuppliersonline.com/propertypages/5086.asp#physical Steel and alloy are both fine materials and we design and build either to suit the customer. The problem with anecdotes is that with a small enough sample you can prove just about anything. Based on anecdote, it has been argued that you are safer to be thrown from a car in an accident than to wear a seat belt. Greg Elliott ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 2:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> Pollard makes a good point about the lilihood of transverse frames >> causing the hull to tear, and how riverboats avoid having transverse >> frames touch the hull skin at any point. >> Brent >> > > On several occasions I have remarked about my reticence to go alloy > because of an incident I witnessed with a near megayacht trying to > pull away from the dock and just barely grazing the stern quarter. It > is entirely possible that it was the vertical framing that resulted in > a slight gouging then a huge tear that proceeded to open up the side > of the boat like a sardine can. The damage done must have been in the > many tens of thousands of dollars, if not more. I have also seen > several alu runabouts in the 20 to 23 foot range that have impacted > something at speed. When hit near the curve of the bow they seem to > absorb quite amazing amounts of energy, I've seen some really > astounding dents with no split in the material, however, if whacked in > the side, where the impact met with a frame, big tears appear. As a > consequence, on the purely observational level, I'm in Brent's camp on > this one. i.e. longitudinal impacts near a frame result in a stress > riser that prevents further deformation of the sheet resulting in skin > failure. > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 8918|8765|2005-09-27 22:55:22|tom|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|wouldnt the size of the transverse frames be a factor in a collision? I have a set of plans for a 31 steel multichine sailboat and it calls for 3/16" x 3" frames at 36" centers with 1/2" chine bars and 3/16" x 1-1/2" stiffiners between chines. looking at the drawings seems like if you took a hit in the side that would bend the 10 gage shell plating the little 3/16" x 3" frame would bend with it Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > Transverse member such as bulkheads, frames, and tank ends welded to the > hull are all a source of tears in collisions, in both alloy and steel. > The > problem results from the collision pushing the skin in, as well as pushing > the transverse member aft. This stretches the skin immediately ahead of > the > transverse member until the skin tears. > > The solution in origami is to weld the transverse members directly to the > top of the longitudinals. Do not notch the transverse members - simply > fillet weld them directly to the tops of the longitudinal "L"'s or "T"'s. > Quick and simple to do, especially in the chined sections. > > There is a secondary problem specific to alloy. Many builders have used > 5052 to build alloy boats because it is often cheaper and it is easy to > shape. Especially when building round hulls. The downside of 5052 is > that > these hulls are also extremely easy to dent and will tear with much less > force than true marine alloys such as 5086 and 5083. > > We use 5086 for alloy hulls and decks. It is surprisingly stiff and > strong. > It feels a lot like steel, without the weight. 5086 is actually harder to > dent than mild steel of the same thickness. Yes, you read it right. In > all > tempers, a 1/4 inch plate of 5086 is as hard as, or harder to dent than a > 1/4 inch plate of mild steel. > > Since alloy boats are made 50% thicker than steel, in 5086 they are much > harder to dent than steel. 5086 is not what most people think of when > they > think aluminum. > > http://www.aluminum.org/Content/NavigationMenu/The_Industry/-Sheet,_Plate/Aluminum_Boats/AluminumBoats.doc > > http://www.metalsuppliersonline.com/propertypages/5086.asp#physical > > Steel and alloy are both fine materials and we design and build either to > suit the customer. The problem with anecdotes is that with a small enough > sample you can prove just about anything. Based on anecdote, it has been > argued that you are safer to be thrown from a car in an accident than to > wear a seat belt. > > Greg Elliott > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 2:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: David Gerr, vs reality > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >> wrote: >>> Pollard makes a good point about the lilihood of transverse frames >>> causing the hull to tear, and how riverboats avoid having transverse >>> frames touch the hull skin at any point. >>> Brent >>> >> >> On several occasions I have remarked about my reticence to go alloy >> because of an incident I witnessed with a near megayacht trying to >> pull away from the dock and just barely grazing the stern quarter. It >> is entirely possible that it was the vertical framing that resulted in >> a slight gouging then a huge tear that proceeded to open up the side >> of the boat like a sardine can. The damage done must have been in the >> many tens of thousands of dollars, if not more. I have also seen >> several alu runabouts in the 20 to 23 foot range that have impacted >> something at speed. When hit near the curve of the bow they seem to >> absorb quite amazing amounts of energy, I've seen some really >> astounding dents with no split in the material, however, if whacked in >> the side, where the impact met with a frame, big tears appear. As a >> consequence, on the purely observational level, I'm in Brent's camp on >> this one. i.e. longitudinal impacts near a frame result in a stress >> riser that prevents further deformation of the sheet resulting in skin >> failure. >> >> seer >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8919|8765|2005-09-28 01:27:16|Jerry Scovel|Savonious power|Has a savonious generator ever been used for marine propulsion? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Savonious/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8920|8765|2005-09-28 04:00:46|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Jerry, A difficulty with savonius rotors is that of de-powering them when the wind speed increases or power is not required. In general as the wind speed increases they go faster and faster until they fly to pieces. Regards, Ted| 8921|8765|2005-09-28 08:05:32|Chris Lasdauskas|Re: Origami shape and Scantling|Nope, sorry, his claim was that "Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly." That's simply not true. It WAS true briefly for one small subset of formulae in the 1930s, but not since. And yes, of course we see credentialled people claim things, usually outside their area of expertise, sometimes within, but Brent (intentially or otherwise) was using an incorrect example to discredit design based on calculation etc ie 'theory' in favour of design based on experience. (Maybe that is fair enough, but the example was still wrong) Chris seeratlas wrote: > In either event, the point Brent makes is the same and still valid, > i.e. someone with 'credentials' made a completely wrong statement, er > uh duh...like we don't see that often? > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas wrote: > >>Picky as this may seem... >> >>brentswain38 wrote: >> >> >> >>> Mathematical formulae used in aircraft design all predict that it >>>is mathematically impossible for a bee to fly. Which is wrong, the >>>bee or the formula? >> >>This is completely incorrect. First of all the reference was to bumble >>bees (they were assumed to be too heavy for their wing size); secondly >>that was basically one (German, I believe) aerodynamicist in the 1930; >>thirdly, it was quickly pointedout that bumble bee wings are dynamic > > not > >>fixed like, say, a cessna's wings, and when the orrect (and known in > > the > >>1930s) theory was used it matched reality. >> >>Unfortunately, since it was a German sceintist, during the Nazi era, > > who > >> made this claim it rapidly entered into folk-lore as evidence of how >>stupid, initially, Germans were, and later all theoreticians. It > > remains > >>popular with those who scorn science. >> >>Chris > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8922|8765|2005-09-28 08:06:48|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|I have thought of that, as rotational speed increases I intend to have a friction clutch engage additional generators. on 9/28/05 3:00 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Jerry, A difficulty with savonius rotors is that of de-powering them when the wind speed increases or power is not required. In general as the wind speed increases they go faster and faster until they fly to pieces. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8923|8765|2005-09-28 08:51:56|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Jerry, How will you use the electricity generated? Regards, Ted| 8924|8924|2005-09-28 09:11:50|prairiemaidca|Primed Steel Edmontom|Hey Jesse: I had the same luck when I started Prairie Maid. All the local suppliers in the Edm. area all gave me the story that you are getting. No primed sheet to be had so we are doing the blast and paint routine. Martin Forster...| 8925|8765|2005-09-28 09:17:30|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|I intend to charge batteries and run a solomon electric drive from the batteries. on 9/28/05 7:50 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Jerry, How will you use the electricity generated? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8926|8765|2005-09-28 10:01:51|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Jerry, When the batteries are fully charged and you have no need of power to move your vessel, then there will be no load on the generators and they will freewheel allowing the savonious rotor to overspeed. Propeller type wind devices can be controlled by changing the pitch or, as do the old farm windpumps, by turning them sideways to the wind. Savonious rotors cannot be turned out of the wind and as far as the ones I have seen the pitch cannot be changed either. A possibility might be to control the speed by partially or completely covering it with sailcloth sleeve, a kind of reverse reefing, but that would create a lot of windage. Regards, Ted| 8927|8765|2005-09-28 10:25:48|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|Good point, I guess that the extra energy could be used to distill drinking water, run A/C or heating, inverted to 117 VAC et cetera. As far as I know the only way to stop them is a mechanical brake. on 9/28/05 8:56 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Jerry, When the batteries are fully charged and you have no need of power to move your vessel, then there will be no load on the generators and they will freewheel allowing the savonious rotor to overspeed. Propeller type wind devices can be controlled by changing the pitch or, as do the old farm windpumps, by turning them sideways to the wind. Savonious rotors cannot be turned out of the wind and as far as the ones I have seen the pitch cannot be changed either. A possibility might be to control the speed by partially or completely covering it with sailcloth sleeve, a kind of reverse reefing, but that would create a lot of windage. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8928|8765|2005-09-28 11:09:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Or you could distill rum. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel wrote: > Good point, I guess that the extra energy could be used to distill drinking > water, run A/C or heating, inverted to 117 VAC et cetera. As far as I know > the only way to stop them is a mechanical brake. > > > on 9/28/05 8:56 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@g... wrote: > > > Jerry, > When the batteries are fully charged and you have no need of power to > move your vessel, then there will be no load on the generators and > they will freewheel allowing the savonious rotor to overspeed. > Propeller type wind devices can be controlled by changing the pitch > or, as do the old farm windpumps, by turning them sideways to the > wind. Savonious rotors cannot be turned out of the wind and as far as > the ones I have seen the pitch cannot be changed either. A > possibility might be to control the speed by partially or completely > covering it with sailcloth sleeve, a kind of reverse reefing, but that > would create a lot of windage. > Regards, > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8929|8765|2005-09-28 11:23:13|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|As I am Ojibwe indian I could only use the alcohol for fuel... on 9/28/05 10:06 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Or you could distill rum. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel wrote: > Good point, I guess that the extra energy could be used to distill drinking > water, run A/C or heating, inverted to 117 VAC et cetera. As far as I know > the only way to stop them is a mechanical brake. > > > on 9/28/05 8:56 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@g... wrote: > > > Jerry, > When the batteries are fully charged and you have no need of power to > move your vessel, then there will be no load on the generators and > they will freewheel allowing the savonious rotor to overspeed. > Propeller type wind devices can be controlled by changing the pitch > or, as do the old farm windpumps, by turning them sideways to the > wind. Savonious rotors cannot be turned out of the wind and as far as > the ones I have seen the pitch cannot be changed either. A > possibility might be to control the speed by partially or completely > covering it with sailcloth sleeve, a kind of reverse reefing, but that > would create a lot of windage. > Regards, > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8930|8765|2005-09-28 12:10:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Jerry, Yes, You could use the alcohol for cooking and heating, but it may be a bit long winded to produce it. Are you based around the Great Lakes? Regards, Ted| 8931|8765|2005-09-28 12:59:31|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|I live in the great corn desert (160 mi. west of Chicago) right now but I was born and raised on a dairy farm near Sand Bay, Wisconsin. on 9/28/05 11:07 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Jerry, Yes, You could use the alcohol for cooking and heating, but it may be a bit long winded to produce it. Are you based around the Great Lakes? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8932|8765|2005-09-28 14:14:12|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: David Gerr, vs reality|correction: There are a range of yield strengths for mild steel depending on supplier. 5086-H34 and H116 are in the same range as mild steel. Depending on temper and supplier, 5086 and mild steel of the same thickness should be equally hard to dent. An alloy boat with 50% thicker plates would be harder to dent. Greg Elliott| 8933|6323|2005-09-28 19:27:07|Alex Christie|Origami Dvd|Hi Carl, I got the DVD done at last, thought I'd let you know. Thanks for the advice back in December 2004 about post-production. It's been crazy and long-drawn process and I think I need new glasses, but its done so I'm happy. I too am going to have to save up for a G5 computer to get the next film done, it's the only way! Alex On 9-Dec-04, at 12:22 PM, Carl Nostrand wrote: > > Alex, > > Its a very big project making a DVD or a Video with a PC. I have been > fooling around with video for years with my apple computer. I have made > some 5 min. productions with nice results. My old Apple computer is a > G3 300, which is not happy working video with the new OS and soft ware > (FCP) that I have on my system. I'm saving for a new G5 system that > will not crash......... The most important thing is to get the steps > recorded on DV tape! > > Post production can be very cool and fun with the right system. Don't > be shy about making quick cuts to the next step, keeps the viewer > overloaded which is good. He or she will want to watch it again and > again to get schooled in Origami boat-building , which is very good! > I wish that I was able to help you in post production. Post is were > time just flys by, and nights turn into days, and days into weeks, and > so on..... > > You will have a great sense of accomplishment and power after post > production. Try not to let critical remarks from others which have not > been through the massive learning curve to make a "DVD production", get > you down. Its all so very easy to be destructive than constructive in > are world. > > Best of luck! > > Carl Nostrand > Homer Alaska > > On Dec 9, 2004, at 9:14 AM, Alex Christie wrote: > >> >> Dear Group, >> >> Work still continues on the DVD, and I hope to get it released in the >> new year. Sorry for the delay, but I'm on a steeper learning curve >> with this stuff than I ever was with >> boatbuilding! Also, because of the size of the film, the editing >> process is quite complex. I'm learning now why post-production on >> films takes time and money. >> >> Having reviewed the footage, I'm quite sure that I'll be able to >> include every step of the building process on one film, so don't worry >> about anything being left out. >> >> I'm putting up some photos of the project today, hopefully, after >> finally getting the bugs out of my PC computer where all the photos >> are held. >> >> Regards, >> >> Alex Christie >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8934|8924|2005-09-28 23:03:56|Paul Cotter|Re: Primed Steel Edmontom|I had a tough time finding blasted, preprimed steel here in Anchorage until I found a fabrication shop that does it. In fact they buy the steel locally at discounted prices from a local supplier and then blast and prime. They will prime to my spec, and they happen to use what Brent recommended (I can’t recall what it is at the moment). It certainly isn’t cheap, but it is available. Anyway, you may want to look around at industrial fabrication shops if you haven’t already. The place I found services the oil industry. Paul -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of prairiemaidca Sent: 09/28/2005 5:10 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Primed Steel Edmontom Hey Jesse: I had the same luck when I started Prairie Maid. All the local suppliers in the Edm. area all gave me the story that you are getting. No primed sheet to be had so we are doing the blast and paint routine. Martin Forster... To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8935|8924|2005-09-29 03:45:05|Alex Christie|Zinga priming|I have used Zinga cold-galvanizing on my keels and have to say I am pretty impressed with it. With that stuff you could blast and prime in small sections at your leisure, and there is no need to keep a wet edge. Do 1 square metre or 5 square metres in a day, it does not matter. When you want to start again the next day, week or year (let's hope a little sooner), the newly applied solvent-carrier in the Zinga bites into the older dry edge you left behind before by "melting" in a little, co-mingling old and new before drying, effectively making your primer one seamless coat over all once you are done. Other paint systems will not do this unless they have a solvent base which is meant to "bite" into the last edge you stopped at, in the manner Zinga does. You can also put it on top of old Zinga, of course, and it will similarly bite. I wish I got a rebate now from Zinga for promoting it, because it is not cheap stuff! But, it is really zinc-rich (one small can is very heavy), and in the places I have put it on I have noted that the steel is completely protected, even without paint on top, right through a rainy winter. Ted has used in the UK on his keels I noticed, so he might have some insights as to how well it worked. Alex > I had a tough time finding blasted, preprimed steel here in Anchorage > until I found a fabrication shop that does it. In fact they buy the > steel locally at discounted prices from a local supplier and then > blast > and prime. They will prime to my spec, and they happen to use what > Brent > recommended (I can’t recall what it is at the moment). It certainly > isn’t cheap, but it is available. Anyway, you may want to look around > at > industrial fabrication shops if you haven’t already. The place I found > services the oil industry. > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of prairiemaidca > Sent: 09/28/2005 5:10 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Primed Steel Edmontom > > Hey Jesse:  I had the same luck when I started Prairie Maid. All the > local suppliers in the Edm. area all gave me the story that you are > getting.  No primed sheet to be had so we are doing the blast and > paint > routine.  Martin Forster... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > British > > t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=British+ > > columbia+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=Q4lYYtlNW0FQ > O > 44ezC2G3Q>  columbia canada > Vancouver > > t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=British+columbi > > a+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=TVvK0pZk9dkmygRA0he > g > Nw>  island > Yacht > > t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=British+columbia+canada&w2 > =Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=lCcJSZ2V25esT9G6EcjB6g>  > >   _____  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > *          Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. >   > *          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   > *          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >   Terms of Service. > >   _____  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > British columbia canada > Vancouver island > Yacht > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. >   > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8936|8924|2005-09-29 06:20:58|Gerd|Re: Zinga priming|Alex, sounds good. Could we get some pics, please? Would be nice to see your latest status anyway ;-) What do you use for blasting? did you rent the equipment? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > I have used Zinga cold-galvanizing on my keels and have to say I am > pretty impressed with it. With that stuff you could blast and prime in > small sections at your leisure, and there is no need to keep a wet > edge. Do 1 square metre or 5 square metres in a day, it does not > matter. When you want to start again the next day, week or year (let's > hope a little sooner), the newly applied solvent-carrier in the Zinga > bites into the older dry edge you left behind before by "melting" in a > little, co-mingling old and new before drying, effectively making your > primer one seamless coat over all once you are done. Other paint > systems will not do this unless they have a solvent base which is meant > to "bite" into the last edge you stopped at, in the manner Zinga does. > You can also put it on top of old Zinga, of course, and it will > similarly bite. > > I wish I got a rebate now from Zinga for promoting it, because it is > not cheap stuff! But, it is really zinc-rich (one small can is very > heavy), and in the places I have put it on I have noted that the steel > is completely protected, even without paint on top, right through a > rainy winter. > > Ted has used in the UK on his keels I noticed, so he might have some > insights as to how well it worked. > > Alex > > > > > > > I had a tough time finding blasted, preprimed steel here in Anchorage > > until I found a fabrication shop that does it. In fact they buy the > > steel locally at discounted prices from a local supplier and then > > blast > > and prime. They will prime to my spec, and they happen to use what > > Brent > > recommended (I can’t recall what it is at the moment). It certainly > > isn’t cheap, but it is available. Anyway, you may want to look around > > at > > industrial fabrication shops if you haven’t already. The place I found > > services the oil industry. > > > > Paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of prairiemaidca > > Sent: 09/28/2005 5:10 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Primed Steel Edmontom > > > > Hey Jesse:  I had the same luck when I started Prairie Maid. All the > > local suppliers in the Edm. area all gave me the story that you are > > getting.  No primed sheet to be had so we are doing the blast and > > paint > > routine.  Martin Forster... > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > British > > > > > t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=British+ > > > > columbia+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=Q4lYYtlNW0 FQ > > O > > 44ezC2G3Q>  columbia canada > > Vancouver > > > > > t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=British+columbi > > > > a+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=TVvK0pZk9dkmygRA0 he > > g > > Nw>  island > > Yacht > > > > > t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=British+columbia+canada&w2 > > =Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=lCcJSZ2V25esT9G6EcjB6g>  > > > >   _____  > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > *          Visit your group "origamiboats > > " on the web. > >   > > *          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >   > > *          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > >   Terms of Service. > > > >   _____  > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > British columbia canada > > Vancouver island > > Yacht > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > ▪  Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > >   > > ▪  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   > > ▪  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8937|8924|2005-09-29 06:45:10|Alex Christie|Re: Zinga priming|Hi Gerd, I borrowed a friend's blaster, and also used my boat landlord's blaster as well. In either case it was hard to keep the sand flowing and I got it jammed. Might have needed more air, hard to say. Next time I will rent a really powerful compressor, and maybe a commercial sized blaster. You can make your own, however, they are really quite simple. For my needs, because I got pre-primed sheets, I won't need to blast except for a few areas where I left a pile of slag sweepings on the deck (take note) and ya Brent warned me not to leave it but leave it I did and it ate my primer underneath! So I will try to blast and Zinga that area in any case, and the rest of the boat is good. I'll try to get some pics up in the next while after I get all my DVD shipping process fully organized and other details, then I'll be going back to work on the boat detailing, priming, and ballasting. And filming, of course for Film 2! Alex On 29-Sep-05, at 3:20 AM, Gerd wrote: > Alex, sounds good. Could we get some pics, please? Would be nice to > see your latest status anyway ;-) > What do you use for blasting? did you rent the equipment? > > Gerd > Auf Deutsch für meine deutschsprechenden Freunde:-) Hallo Gerd, Ich borgte den Bläser eines Freunds und benutzte auch Bläser meines Boot Hauswirts außerdem. In jedem Fall war es hart, den Sand zu halten zu fließen und ich erhielt ihn gestaut. Konnte mehr Luft benötigt haben, hart zu sagen. Folgendes Mal miete ich einen wirklich leistungsfähigen Kompressor und möglicherweise einen kommerziellen sortierten Bläser. Sie können Ihre Selbst bilden, jedoch sind sie wirklich ziemlich einfach. Für meine Notwendigkeiten weil ich vor-vorbereitete Blätter erhielt, brauche ich nicht, außer einigen Bereichen zu starten, in denen ich einen Stapel von Schlacke sweepings auf der Plattform (Nehmenanmerkung) ließ und ya Brent warnte mich, sie nicht zu lassen, aber sie zu lassen, die ich tat und sie aß meine Zündkapsel darunterliegend! So versuche ich zu starten und Zinga, das Bereich in jedem möglichem Fall und der Rest des Bootes gut ist. Ich versuche, irgendeinen pics oben im folgenden zu erhalten während, nachdem ich meinen ganzen DVD Verschiffenprozeß völlig organisierte und andere Details erhalte, dann ich werde gehen zurück zu Arbeit über das genau schildernde, vorbereitende, und Ballastaufnahme Boot. Und Schmierfilmbildung, selbstverständlich für Film 2! Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8938|8765|2005-09-29 07:59:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Jerry, Sounds like you might miss the woods and lakes Regards, Ted| 8939|8765|2005-09-29 08:33:29|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|Ted, True, where I live now I have 7 trees, half of the trees in the county... Jerry. on 9/29/05 6:58 AM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Jerry, Sounds like you might miss the woods and lakes Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8940|8924|2005-09-29 09:01:22|edward_stoneuk|Re: Zinga priming|Alex, I am still building so I haven't has a chance to test it in the briny. I have used Zinga before on industrial plant. I had difficulty getting pre-blasted and zinga primed steel although I had some angles and flat blasted before delivery and then painted them with Zinga before they rusted. I used sheepskin mittens that I bought from a charity shop turned inside out to paint the Zinga on. It worked fairly well though the wool tended to wear pull out after a while. Blasted steel is quite rough. I blasted and then Zingared the boat components, e.g. hull halves and deck sections etc before the final assembly. I still have some bits to blast, the engine frame, stern tube, water tank bits and the pilot house sides etc. I am mulling over the idea of launching it still in the Zinga. Oil rigs and piers etc. are left in Zinga and while it is a bit drab unless it is polished when it comes up like a zinc diecasting it is very easy to maintain and does have some anti-fouling properties. Regards, Ted| 8941|8924|2005-09-29 09:14:26|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Zinga priming|What are you guys planning to topcoat with? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinga priming Hi Gerd, I borrowed a friend's blaster, and also used my boat landlord's blaster as well. In either case it was hard to keep the sand flowing and I got it jammed. Might have needed more air, hard to say. Next time I will rent a really powerful compressor, and maybe a commercial sized blaster. You can make your own, however, they are really quite simple. For my needs, because I got pre-primed sheets, I won't need to blast except for a few areas where I left a pile of slag sweepings on the deck (take note) and ya Brent warned me not to leave it but leave it I did and it ate my primer underneath! So I will try to blast and Zinga that area in any case, and the rest of the boat is good. I'll try to get some pics up in the next while after I get all my DVD shipping process fully organized and other details, then I'll be going back to work on the boat detailing, priming, and ballasting. And filming, of course for Film 2! Alex On 29-Sep-05, at 3:20 AM, Gerd wrote: > Alex, sounds good. Could we get some pics, please? Would be nice to > see your latest status anyway ;-) > What do you use for blasting? did you rent the equipment? > > Gerd > Auf Deutsch für meine deutschsprechenden Freunde:-) Hallo Gerd, Ich borgte den Bläser eines Freunds und benutzte auch Bläser meines Boot Hauswirts außerdem. In jedem Fall war es hart, den Sand zu halten zu fließen und ich erhielt ihn gestaut. Konnte mehr Luft benötigt haben, hart zu sagen. Folgendes Mal miete ich einen wirklich leistungsfähigen Kompressor und möglicherweise einen kommerziellen sortierten Bläser. Sie können Ihre Selbst bilden, jedoch sind sie wirklich ziemlich einfach. Für meine Notwendigkeiten weil ich vor-vorbereitete Blätter erhielt, brauche ich nicht, außer einigen Bereichen zu starten, in denen ich einen Stapel von Schlacke sweepings auf der Plattform (Nehmenanmerkung) ließ und ya Brent warnte mich, sie nicht zu lassen, aber sie zu lassen, die ich tat und sie aß meine Zündkapsel darunterliegend! So versuche ich zu starten und Zinga, das Bereich in jedem möglichem Fall und der Rest des Bootes gut ist. Ich versuche, irgendeinen pics oben im folgenden zu erhalten während, nachdem ich meinen ganzen DVD Verschiffenprozeß völlig organisierte und andere Details erhalte, dann ich werde gehen zurück zu Arbeit über das genau schildernde, vorbereitende, und Ballastaufnahme Boot. Und Schmierfilmbildung, selbstverständlich für Film 2! Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 8942|8924|2005-09-29 11:25:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Zinga priming|Jim, I am considering leaving it in grey Zinga and maybe polish it to give a die cast zinc effect. I do not know how the shine is effected by salt water though. Zinga sell a tie coat, which is mentioned on their web site so I may use that. Regards, Ted| 8943|8924|2005-09-29 14:27:09|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Zinga priming|I am zinc flame spraying my boat, inside and out. If there is a need to weld after I have flame sprayed, there is a problem. Grinding will not remove the zinc from the pores. The only way to get the metal clean enough to get a good weld, with no zinc, is to grind and blast. The company I once worked for bought blasted and primed steel. One big benefit was the fact that it was stored out in the yard. The other positive part of the primer was that you could weld thru the primer without getting pinholes. What must you do to get a good weld after you have applied zinga? Gerald| 8944|8924|2005-09-29 14:48:29|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Zinga priming|Check their website. I believe it says you can weld right through. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 1:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinga priming > I am zinc flame spraying my boat, inside and out. If there is a need to > weld after I have flame sprayed, there is a problem. Grinding will not > remove the zinc from the pores. The only way to get the metal clean > enough to get a good weld, with no zinc, is to grind and blast. > The company I once worked for bought blasted and primed steel. One big > benefit was the fact that it was stored out in the yard. The other > positive part of the primer was that you could weld thru the primer > without getting pinholes. > What must you do to get a good weld after you have applied zinga? > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8945|8945|2005-09-29 15:01:47|jericoera|Hatches and door ideas|Safety is a huge priority. I myself looked at www.pcmii.com and saw some nice hatches and doors that are dogged. Keeps out the water and in an unfortunate encounter with hostile persons in a foreign country, it may also keep them out. Anybody build one of these types of doors before. I think if I recall Brent may have something similar like the locking engine room doors on the ferries. Carl M| 8946|8946|2005-09-29 17:24:50|edward_stoneuk|Alex's film|Alex, We received your film today. Fiona and I watched it through and really enjoyed it. Congratulations to you and Brent. One question: Did you remove the two spacers in the skeg before pulling the aperture edges together? Regards, Ted| 8947|8924|2005-09-29 18:15:52|tom|Re: Zinga priming|I just talked to a zena dealer and he said you can weld it just like welding regular galvanized whitch means it will weld through but the welds are not near as clean or strong as with clean metal. If you want a good clean weld lightly grind the area to be welded to bare metal ( about 1/2" to 1" both sides of where the weld bead will be ) and it will weld like new steel. Make sure to ware resperator when welding galvanized, the fumes are deadly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinga priming >I am zinc flame spraying my boat, inside and out. If there is a need to > weld after I have flame sprayed, there is a problem. Grinding will not > remove the zinc from the pores. The only way to get the metal clean > enough to get a good weld, with no zinc, is to grind and blast. > The company I once worked for bought blasted and primed steel. One big > benefit was the fact that it was stored out in the yard. The other > positive part of the primer was that you could weld thru the primer > without getting pinholes. > What must you do to get a good weld after you have applied zinga? > Gerald > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8948|8948|2005-09-29 18:41:07|tazmannusa|photos file|does anyone know what going on with the photos file on this site? last couple days when I try to access it I get a error groupsite check| 8949|8948|2005-09-29 19:21:34|Jerry walker|Re: photos file|I have the same problerm >From: "tazmannusa" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] photos file >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:40:45 -0000 > >does anyone know what going on with the photos file on this site? last >couple days when I try to access it I get a error groupsite check > > | 8950|8924|2005-09-29 20:42:44|brentswain38|Re: Zinga priming|Giev the overkill on small boats I wouldn't worry about the strength. I found that wire feed or 7018 didn't like zinc, but 7024 and 6011 eats right thru it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > I just talked to a zena dealer and he said you can weld it just like > welding regular galvanized whitch means it will weld through but the welds > are not near as clean or strong as with clean metal. If you want a good > clean weld lightly grind the area to be welded to bare metal ( about 1/2" to > 1" both sides of where the weld bead will be ) and it will weld like new > steel. Make sure to ware resperator when welding galvanized, the fumes are > deadly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:25 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Zinga priming > > > >I am zinc flame spraying my boat, inside and out. If there is a need to > > weld after I have flame sprayed, there is a problem. Grinding will not > > remove the zinc from the pores. The only way to get the metal clean > > enough to get a good weld, with no zinc, is to grind and blast. > > The company I once worked for bought blasted and primed steel. One big > > benefit was the fact that it was stored out in the yard. The other > > positive part of the primer was that you could weld thru the primer > > without getting pinholes. > > What must you do to get a good weld after you have applied zinga? > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8951|8765|2005-09-29 20:44:30|brentswain38|Re: Savonious power|Put a line or handle on the tailfin. Use it to turn the rotor at right angles to the wind, then put a small S hook on a string, thru a hole in the blade to tie it off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Jerry, > A difficulty with savonius rotors is that of de-powering them when the > wind speed increases or power is not required. In general as the wind > speed increases they go faster and faster until they fly to pieces. > Regards, > Ted | 8952|8765|2005-09-29 20:50:47|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|There is no tailfin on a savonious as it is omnidirectional. At 12 HP in a 5 mph wind it would need to be chained. on 9/29/05 7:44 PM, brentswain38 at brentswain38@... wrote: Put a line or handle on the tailfin. Use it to turn the rotor at right angles to the wind, then put a small S hook on a string, thru a hole in the blade to tie it off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Jerry, > A difficulty with savonius rotors is that of de-powering them when the > wind speed increases or power is not required. In general as the wind > speed increases they go faster and faster until they fly to pieces. > Regards, > Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8953|8946|2005-09-29 20:51:45|brentswain38|Re: Alex's film|I usually leave them in unless they interfer with the stren tube. Then you can cut the top one out thru the aperture before pulling it together. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Alex, > We received your film today. Fiona and I watched it through and > really enjoyed it. Congratulations to you and Brent. One question: > Did you remove the two spacers in the skeg before pulling the aperture > edges together? > Regards, > Ted | 8954|8945|2005-09-29 20:53:02|brentswain38|Re: Hatches and door ideas|As all water pressure is inward on a door, the extra dogs are no great advantage. You want to keep the door as light as possible. Simpler individual dogs will keep pirates out while you are using your slingshot thru a vent to dent his testicles( Or a speargun.) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > Safety is a huge priority. I myself looked at www.pcmii.com and saw > some nice hatches and doors that are dogged. Keeps out the water and > in an unfortunate encounter with hostile persons in a foreign country, > it may also keep them out. > > Anybody build one of these types of doors before. I think if I recall > Brent may have something similar like the locking engine room doors on > the ferries. > > Carl M | 8955|8945|2005-09-29 20:58:17|Jerry Scovel|Re: Hatches and door ideas|As a sailor in a different country every week (not allowed to carry weapons) I found the flash of a camera the best defense. Imagine the damage that you can do to a blind man in 30 seconds... on 9/29/05 7:49 PM, brentswain38 at brentswain38@... wrote: As all water pressure is inward on a door, the extra dogs are no great advantage. You want to keep the door as light as possible. Simpler individual dogs will keep pirates out while you are using your slingshot thru a vent to dent his testicles( Or a speargun.) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > Safety is a huge priority. I myself looked at www.pcmii.com and saw > some nice hatches and doors that are dogged. Keeps out the water and > in an unfortunate encounter with hostile persons in a foreign country, > it may also keep them out. > > Anybody build one of these types of doors before. I think if I recall > Brent may have something similar like the locking engine room doors on > the ferries. > > Carl M To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8956|22|2005-09-29 21:03:46|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Picture usb stick 512 039.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : a usefull little tool -use rubber 12 for inside use :-) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Picture%20usb%20stick%20512%20039.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 8957|8945|2005-09-29 21:34:59|Puck III|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Hehe , I just uploaded a file of a usefull little tube :-) if you turn your little reducer to calliber 12 yourself , I advise stainless , and small rubber pellets to reduce damage when used inside the cabin . make the tube a little longer than on the pic : - so you can use both hands , expect some serious recoil [ feels like shooting a .50 on the shoulder instead of above ] - out of amo , simply bang the tube on the head of the intruder ( some History : in 1302 the Flemish intruded in the bedrooms of the sleeping French intruders in their country , and banged the heads of anyone unable to roll the RRRR's the Scottish way , on the head with kinda similar tube , leaving all rubber to limit damage at home . That tube wich usualy has a dented steel ball on top is called a " Goedendag " , good day in Flemish or bonjour in French ) For those not carrying a flaregun , the tube idea make good sense you could adapt a French Petanque ball , without chain connection for inside cabin use , and with a little chain for outside use . In Flanders we have no gas and no petrol , but we have ideas and take security very seriously. Sailing with an apple and a smile a day , keeps the doctor away :-) Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel wrote: > As a sailor in a different country every week (not allowed to carry weapons) > I found the flash of a camera the best defense. Imagine the damage that you > can do to a blind man in 30 seconds... > > > on 9/29/05 7:49 PM, brentswain38 at brentswain38@h... wrote: > > As all water pressure is inward on a door, the extra dogs are no great > advantage. You want to keep the door as light as possible. Simpler > individual dogs will keep pirates out while you are using your > slingshot thru a vent to dent his testicles( Or a speargun.) > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > Safety is a huge priority. I myself looked at www.pcmii.com and saw > > some nice hatches and doors that are dogged. Keeps out the water and > > in an unfortunate encounter with hostile persons in a foreign > country, > > it may also keep them out. > > > > Anybody build one of these types of doors before. I think if I recall > > Brent may have something similar like the locking engine room doors > on > > the ferries. > > > > Carl M > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > British columbia canada > mbia+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=Q4lYYtlNW0FQO44 ezC2G3 > Q> Vancouver island > nada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=TVvK0pZk9dkmygRA0hegNw > > Yacht > couver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=lCcJSZ2V25esT9G6EcjB6g> > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8958|8958|2005-09-30 05:48:05|Alfredo Nannetti|Brent's way of working|I recived the video. I finally understand what is an origami Brent's boat. I have to say that I'm quite impressed. For the way of building and this unique tecnic and for the nice shape of the boat. What I mean is that even if the sheets have to be shaped in a particolar way to be joined fine, they don't compromise the bauty of the boat. How many time we have seen ugly boats easy to build but awfull to look at? But what is the great message I recived from the video is the way of working that Brent shows as. I mean the opportunity to work alone, indipendent, in an easy and very simple way. There are not particolar tecnologies in what Brent is using, just normal and cheap equipments that evrybody, if he wants, can use for his boat. It is a "possibility" for evryone. Its something like if he was saing: "If you wanna "go", you can! Look its possible! and it's not only a matter of science, tecnology and money, its a matter of will". Thanks Brent, becouse what you show us has a value that neither the progress nor the money can give us. And thanks to Alex that was so able to "translate" this message, with the very well done dvd, for all of us. ciao! alfredo| 8959|8945|2005-09-30 17:02:35|brentswain38|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Most cases of piracy I've heard of involve waking up to an intruder in the cabin. As ventilation is a problem in the tropics I've made ss loops which allow the door to be left open, but can't be opened far enough to let anyone in. This and metal hatches ( even on a wood or fibreglass boat) make unanounced entry impossible, and unwelcome entry extremely difficult. Don Shore, while sailing one of my 36 footers around the world said he encountered a boatload of Indonesians with their faces covered in ski masks. He went out on deck to say hi and they said" Welcome to Indonesia, great country , great people" then left. We should not be to quick to judge intentions. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > Hehe , I just uploaded a file of a usefull little tube :-) > if you turn your little reducer to calliber 12 yourself , > I advise stainless , and small rubber pellets to reduce > damage when used inside the cabin . > make the tube a little longer than on the pic : > - so you can use both hands , expect some serious recoil > [ feels like shooting a .50 on the shoulder instead of above ] > - out of amo , simply bang the tube on the head of the intruder > > ( some History : in 1302 the Flemish intruded in the bedrooms > of the sleeping French intruders in their country , and banged > the heads of anyone unable to roll the RRRR's the Scottish way , > on the head with kinda similar tube , leaving all rubber to > limit damage at home . That tube wich usualy has a dented > steel ball on top is called a " Goedendag " , good day in > Flemish or bonjour in French ) > > For those not carrying a flaregun , the tube idea make good sense > you could adapt a French Petanque ball , without chain connection > for inside cabin use , and with a little chain for outside use . > > In Flanders we have no gas and no petrol , but we have > ideas and take security very seriously. > > Sailing with an apple and a smile a day , keeps the doctor away :-) > > Old Ben > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel > wrote: > > As a sailor in a different country every week (not allowed to carry > weapons) > > I found the flash of a camera the best defense. Imagine the damage > that you > > can do to a blind man in 30 seconds... > > > > > > on 9/29/05 7:49 PM, brentswain38 at brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > > As all water pressure is inward on a door, the extra dogs are no > great > > advantage. You want to keep the door as light as possible. Simpler > > individual dogs will keep pirates out while you are using your > > slingshot thru a vent to dent his testicles( Or a speargun.) > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" > wrote: > > > Safety is a huge priority. I myself looked at www.pcmii.com and > saw > > > some nice hatches and doors that are dogged. Keeps out the water > and > > > in an unfortunate encounter with hostile persons in a foreign > > country, > > > it may also keep them out. > > > > > > Anybody build one of these types of doors before. I think if I > recall > > > Brent may have something similar like the locking engine room > doors > > on > > > the ferries. > > > > > > Carl M > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > British columbia canada > > t=ms&k=British+columbia+canada&w1=British+colu > > > mbia+canada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=Q4lYYtlNW0FQO44 > ezC2G3 > > Q> Vancouver island > > t=ms&k=Vancouver+island&w1=British+columbia+ca > > > nada&w2=Vancouver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=TVvK0pZk9dkmygRA0hegNw > > > > Yacht > > t=ms&k=Yacht&w1=British+columbia+canada&w2=Van > > couver+island&w3=Yacht&c=3&s=62&.sig=lCcJSZ2V25esT9G6EcjB6g> > > > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > Visit your group "origamiboats > > > " on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8960|8960|2005-10-01 00:10:23|Derrick|Freezing a steel boat into the ice for the winter?|Hello all, I am looking for any information I can find on freezing a steel boat into the ice for the winter. I recently bought a steel Tahiti Ketch and since it is my first steel boat I have a lot of questions of course. My boat is built the old fashioned way with ribs etc unlike the origami boats, but I was advised to post my question here as some of you might have some experiences to share. I live in Ontario, Canada and the ice gets to be between 14-18 inches thick in the winter. Thanks Derrick| 8961|8961|2005-10-01 07:45:46|tazmannusa|photo file|I emailed yahoo to find out why I coundnt access photo file heres what they said Each group has 30 megabytes (MB) of storage in the Photos area, as noted in that area of the group. Depending on the size (resolution) of your images, that 30MB could consist of several hundred images, or only a few. There is also a maximum file size limit of 5MB. If you attempt to upload more than 30MB total or any photo larger than 5MB to your group, you will get an error.Currently, your Yahoo! Group "origamiboats" has exceeded the maximum storage limit in the Photos area. If you would like to access or add more content, you may contact the group owner and request to delete some existing images to make room for new ones. You may also use the Links feature to point to photos stored on locations outside of your group, such as a web page, Yahoo! Briefcase or Yahoo! Photos.| 8962|8765|2005-10-01 16:12:20|jim dorey|Re: Savonious power|On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:51:19 -0300, Jerry Scovel wrote: > There is no tailfin on a savonious as it is omnidirectional. At 12 HP in > a 5 > mph wind it would need to be chained. but if it's tall and thin, it could be tipped(i'd rather use a flettner in that capacity though). -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/| 8963|8765|2005-10-01 17:34:38|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|The flettner is an interesting design, it looks as if it might work as a savonious generator when it is not being used for propulsion. It could even produce its own hydrogen fuel. Nice, thanks. on 10/1/05 3:14 PM, jim dorey at skaar@... wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:51:19 -0300, Jerry Scovel > wrote: > >> There is no tailfin on a savonious as it is omnidirectional. At 12 HP in >> a 5 >> mph wind it would need to be chained. > > but if it's tall and thin, it could be tipped(i'd rather use a flettner in > that capacity though). | 8964|8945|2005-10-01 18:06:28|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hatches and door ideas|I have read of bolting in expanded steel mesh into hatchways to allow ventilation but deter intruders. I have also read of Mace squirted through a hole near the companionway to good effect. In 2001 Sir Peter Blake and his crew were intercepted on their yacht in the mouth of the Amazon river by gun wielding pirates. Sir Peter got his rifle from below and pointed it at the pirates who shot him dead. Two other crew members were injured, and the remaining seven were unhurt. The problem with using firearms, etc in foreign countries where one is the foreigner and asuming you are not killed first is in explaining to the police etc., who may not understand your language, about the dead body on your boat or floating nearby. Regards, Ted| 8965|8960|2005-10-01 18:35:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: Freezing a steel boat into the ice for the winter?|Derrick, Over on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/?yguid=25540395 in message 7130 Annie Hill wrote a very detailed description of overwintering in a steel boat in Greenland. The book "Time on Ice" by Debora Shapiro and Rolf Bjelke, International Marine ISBN 1 84037 015 7 describes overwintering in a steel boat in Antartica. Caroline Alexander in her book "The Endurance" Bloomsbury Publishing 1998(ISBN 0 7475 4123 x 10 9 8 7 6 5) about Shackleton's exbidition describes what happens in a wooden boat when it goes wrong. Regards, Ted| 8966|8945|2005-10-01 21:37:20|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Age old discussion betweenst sailors. I think in the end tho, I might prefer to be the guy trying to explain to the police than the body floating in the water, but then, that's just me. Half a dozen of what we now so delicately call 'armed conflicts' seems to have warped my thinking. oh well. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > I have read of bolting in expanded steel mesh into hatchways to allow > ventilation but deter intruders. I have also read of Mace squirted > through a hole near the companionway to good effect. > > In 2001 Sir Peter Blake and his crew were intercepted on their yacht > in the mouth of the Amazon river by gun wielding pirates. Sir Peter > got his rifle from below and pointed it at the pirates who shot him > dead. Two other crew members were injured, and the remaining seven > were unhurt. > > The problem with using firearms, etc in foreign countries where one is > the foreigner and asuming you are not killed first is in explaining to > the police etc., who may not understand your language, about the dead > body on your boat or floating nearby. > > Regards, > Ted | 8967|8945|2005-10-02 05:41:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Seer, Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed response does not always work. History tells us that the armed conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at the US, British history and the present is littered with similar examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a battery operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be irritating if you forget to turn them off. Regards, Ted| 8968|8968|2005-10-02 09:44:53|audeojude|sheet metal at governemt auction|http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=685153#ItemManifest| 8969|8945|2005-10-02 10:53:01|Jerry walker|Re: Hatches and door ideas|My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed >response does not always work. History tells us that the armed >conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign >nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay >shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing >their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at >the US, British history and the present is littered with similar >examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for >ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I fail to see the connection between military armed conflict or action in the cases you cite and acts of Piracy. The Vietnamese people have not engaged in piracy. What happens in territorial waters is a problem for the local governments. What happens in international waters is a problem for all nations that use the sea. When the British Navy patrolled the waters of the middle east, piracy was not a major problem. Piracy is a police problem much like street crime in say New York or Manila. If piracy becomes a state sponsered activity then direct military response is appropriate. Naval policing of international water is approprite response off shore of nations who will not or can not police international waters in their neighborhoods. Naval powers probably should be operating small sailing yachts in piracy infested international waters and act in a manner such that pirates simply disappear. The word would get around quickly that attack a innocent looking sailing vessel may be hazardous to your health.| 8970|8945|2005-10-02 12:59:48|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Ted, the message of Viet Nam was NOT that superior force does not work, it was that if you're going to use force, you have to have the guts to not only whip it out, but to use it, and carry things thru to conclusion. The VC didn't drive the US out of VietNam, heheh the US State Department did. Somalia is an even greater example of non-military types with agendas trying to micromanage a conflict. If you don't think those Rangers were ready, willing and able to go back in and clean those boys out,,then you just don't know Rangers...They were specifically and directly ordered to stand down, and were then pulled from the area. The VietNam war could have been 'won' on any number of occasions, the first being when the entire southern leadership was holed up in a tunnel complex one level below the one where the officer in charge decided to pull the Aussie tunnel rats despite their protests that they were almost sure a large group of VC lay just below them. They were absolutely correct, the officer in charge was hungry and wanted lunch...so... It is important to remember that the world press (with exceptions in certain totalitarian countries) operates in a vacuum of control, have no direct lines of communication or access to the 'boots on the ground', and often have a predisposition to 'characterize' matters in accordance with whatever agenda they happen to embrace at the time. To rely upon press accounts of how the Viet Nam and other 'wars' were fought/won/lost etc. is to take a flying leap through the proverbial looking glass. With respect to Sir Peter, he was a great man, but he was no warrior and made a number of mistakes. When confronted with a large group of armed and desperate criminals, its unwise to pull out a single weapon in an attempt to frighten them into submission.. this is not rocket science, but Sir Peter feared little on this earth, and in this instance it appears his pride was his downfall. But again, it is not my place to criticize a great sailor, and a great man. I am in total agreement that the defense of a boat should be a thoughtfully managed system where a response can be escalated as the situation requires. The first element of this 'system' should be rational design of the hatches and other access points. I'd go even farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. Anything that dissuades someone from even approaching the boat with bad intentions is a good way to start. I'm not advocating the OK corral scenario when someone even looks at your sideways... Some sailors I've known purposefully spread dilapidated sail covers, dirt, make their own stains etc. when approaching a questionable port so as to not put out the 'here comes a fat cat american just ripe for plucking' sign upon entry. Simple proximity alarms are useful in dissuading curious but otherwise harmless kids and teens. Unfortunately, the last 20 years has seen a major escalation in attacks on boats and their owners in all parts of the world. Trying to keep track of a nice dinghy in a number of places in the Carribs has gotten to be a real PITA. I see no reason to anticipate that it will get better anytime soon. Hell, think of how long its going to take before people start doing the math on how much a trawler or motorsailor's hundreds if not thousands of gallons of diesel are worth in this current market? Fact remains, as it has always been, there are some 'bad' people out there who will take your property and your life if you permit it. Like I said, I believe in escalating defense systems, and the 'court' of last resort for this sea going lawyer, has always been a reliable and accessible firearm. As for this 'turn in all your weapons at each port' bs, for thirty years I've carried several always accessible anti-shark 'bangstiks', legal everywhere and never given a second thought. Not only a useful club, but talk about 'reach out and touch someone'..... There are also a number of 'flare' guns that are prengineered to take 12gauge buckshot. With a good bottle of scotch, and a comfortable chair, almost anyone can brainstorm a few other useful little gadgets that might come in handy. The bottom line is that if one's plan is to rely upon the cavalry sailing in over the horizon, well...that wouldn't be my personal choice. Lastly, Ted, regarding the turning off of the alarms? I knew one fellow that would intentionally 'accidentally' set off one every now and then just so everyone around knew the boat was protected..(course he had more than one system:) the others remained incognito). seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a battery > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be irritating > if you forget to turn them off. > Regards, > Ted | 8971|8945|2005-10-02 13:13:35|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|More details on the anti-shark bangsticks, please :-) e.g. where'd do you get 'em, how do they work, what do they cost, etc... Thanks, Courtney On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 11:59, seeratlas wrote: > Ted, > the message of Viet Nam was NOT that superior force does not work, it > was that if you're going to use force, you have to have the guts to > not only whip it out, but to use it, and carry things thru to > conclusion. The VC didn't drive the US out of VietNam, heheh the US > State Department did. Somalia is an even greater example of > non-military types with agendas trying to micromanage a conflict. If > you don't think those Rangers were ready, willing and able to go back > in and clean those boys out,,then you just don't know Rangers...They > were specifically and directly ordered to stand down, and were then > pulled from the area. > > The VietNam war could have been 'won' on any number of occasions, the > first being when the entire southern leadership was holed up in a > tunnel complex one level below the one where the officer in charge > decided to pull the Aussie tunnel rats despite their protests that > they were almost sure a large group of VC lay just below them. They > were absolutely correct, the officer in charge was hungry and wanted > lunch...so... It is important to remember that the world press (with > exceptions in certain totalitarian countries) operates in a vacuum of > control, have no direct lines of communication or access to the 'boots > on the ground', and often have a predisposition to 'characterize' > matters in accordance with whatever agenda they happen to embrace at > the time. To rely upon press accounts of how the Viet Nam and other > 'wars' were fought/won/lost etc. is to take a flying leap through the > proverbial looking glass. > > With respect to Sir Peter, he was a great man, but he was no warrior > and made a number of mistakes. When confronted with a large group of > armed and desperate criminals, its unwise to pull out a single weapon > in an attempt to frighten them into submission.. this is not rocket > science, but Sir Peter feared little on this earth, and in this > instance it appears his pride was his downfall. But again, it is not > my place to criticize a great sailor, and a great man. > > I am in total agreement that the defense of a boat should be a > thoughtfully managed system where a response can be escalated as the > situation requires. The first element of this 'system' should be > rational design of the hatches and other access points. I'd go even > farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. > > Anything that dissuades someone from even approaching the boat with > bad intentions is a good way to start. I'm not advocating the OK > corral scenario when someone even looks at your sideways... Some > sailors I've known purposefully spread dilapidated sail covers, dirt, > make their own stains etc. when approaching a questionable port so as > to not put out the 'here comes a fat cat american just ripe for > plucking' sign upon entry. Simple proximity alarms are useful in > dissuading curious but otherwise harmless kids and teens. > Unfortunately, the last 20 years has seen a major escalation in > attacks on boats and their owners in all parts of the world. Trying to > keep track of a nice dinghy in a number of places in the Carribs has > gotten to be a real PITA. I see no reason to anticipate that it will > get better anytime soon. Hell, think of how long its going to take > before people start doing the math on how much a trawler or > motorsailor's hundreds if not thousands of gallons of diesel are worth > in this current market? > > Fact remains, as it has always been, there are some 'bad' people out > there who will take your property and your life if you permit it. > Like I said, I believe in escalating defense systems, and the 'court' > of last resort for this sea going lawyer, has always been a reliable > and accessible firearm. As for this 'turn in all your weapons at each > port' bs, for thirty years I've carried several always accessible > anti-shark 'bangstiks', legal everywhere and never given a second > thought. Not only a useful club, but talk about 'reach out and touch > someone'..... There are also a number of 'flare' guns that are > prengineered to take 12gauge buckshot. With a good bottle of scotch, > and a comfortable chair, almost anyone can brainstorm a few other > useful little gadgets that might come in handy. The bottom line is > that if one's plan is to rely upon the cavalry sailing in over the > horizon, well...that wouldn't be my personal choice. > > Lastly, Ted, regarding the turning off of the alarms? I knew one > fellow that would intentionally 'accidentally' set off one every now > and then just so everyone around knew the boat was protected..(course > he had more than one system:) the others remained incognito). > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Seer, > > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign > > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing > > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at > > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a battery > > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be irritating > > if you forget to turn them off. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 8972|8945|2005-10-02 15:43:34|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Mine were sold by Beckman Inst. back in the seventies. They are a stainless tube with two sections. The front or muzzle section is the carrier, it is loaded with the round of choice, I use 9mm rounds. this carrier is grooved for neoprene rings and once the round is loaded into the 'cylinder' this forward section is loaded into the tube. When you jam it against something the entire carrier is shoved backwards against the resistance of a spring into the firing pin mechanism which makes the round go off in contact with whatever you are shoving it against. Depending on the round you choose...well, you can imagine what the combined bullet and blast can do. When used in the air as opposed to underwater a side effect is the force with which whatever you are 'banging' goes flying backwards. A guy handy with a machine lathe and some time on his hands could work one up in a few hours. Don't go overboard on the size of your round. If you want to make things a bit more interesting, you can make the thing with sliding tubes, so that instead of requiring contact which mine do, you could essentially make it simulate a pump shotgun. ATF might have something to say about that tho, so I'd be low key if I went that route. Perhaps a twist or two to change it from impact firing to slide action firing.. Some years ago the DIA whipped up a few similar type weaps designed to look variously like canes and crutches, and the russian kgb assassinated a rather famous defector in europe by using the same principle but instead injecting a poison thru the nose of an umbrella. One advantage of having the round in a 'carrier' is that you can reload the gun quite rapidly by swapping in additional carriers without taking the time to replace the individual rounds. The Canadian customs guys once asked me about the one I had mounted near the hatch, a simple "It's a Shark stick" was all the explanation they required. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > More details on the anti-shark bangsticks, please :-) > e.g. where'd do you get 'em, how do they work, what do they cost, etc... > > Thanks, > Courtney > > > On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 11:59, seeratlas wrote: > > Ted, > > the message of Viet Nam was NOT that superior force does not work, it > > was that if you're going to use force, you have to have the guts to > > not only whip it out, but to use it, and carry things thru to > > conclusion. The VC didn't drive the US out of VietNam, heheh the US > > State Department did. Somalia is an even greater example of > > non-military types with agendas trying to micromanage a conflict. If > > you don't think those Rangers were ready, willing and able to go back > > in and clean those boys out,,then you just don't know Rangers...They > > were specifically and directly ordered to stand down, and were then > > pulled from the area. > > > > The VietNam war could have been 'won' on any number of occasions, the > > first being when the entire southern leadership was holed up in a > > tunnel complex one level below the one where the officer in charge > > decided to pull the Aussie tunnel rats despite their protests that > > they were almost sure a large group of VC lay just below them. They > > were absolutely correct, the officer in charge was hungry and wanted > > lunch...so... It is important to remember that the world press (with > > exceptions in certain totalitarian countries) operates in a vacuum of > > control, have no direct lines of communication or access to the 'boots > > on the ground', and often have a predisposition to 'characterize' > > matters in accordance with whatever agenda they happen to embrace at > > the time. To rely upon press accounts of how the Viet Nam and other > > 'wars' were fought/won/lost etc. is to take a flying leap through the > > proverbial looking glass. > > > > With respect to Sir Peter, he was a great man, but he was no warrior > > and made a number of mistakes. When confronted with a large group of > > armed and desperate criminals, its unwise to pull out a single weapon > > in an attempt to frighten them into submission.. this is not rocket > > science, but Sir Peter feared little on this earth, and in this > > instance it appears his pride was his downfall. But again, it is not > > my place to criticize a great sailor, and a great man. > > > > I am in total agreement that the defense of a boat should be a > > thoughtfully managed system where a response can be escalated as the > > situation requires. The first element of this 'system' should be > > rational design of the hatches and other access points. I'd go even > > farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. > > > > Anything that dissuades someone from even approaching the boat with > > bad intentions is a good way to start. I'm not advocating the OK > > corral scenario when someone even looks at your sideways... Some > > sailors I've known purposefully spread dilapidated sail covers, dirt, > > make their own stains etc. when approaching a questionable port so as > > to not put out the 'here comes a fat cat american just ripe for > > plucking' sign upon entry. Simple proximity alarms are useful in > > dissuading curious but otherwise harmless kids and teens. > > Unfortunately, the last 20 years has seen a major escalation in > > attacks on boats and their owners in all parts of the world. Trying to > > keep track of a nice dinghy in a number of places in the Carribs has > > gotten to be a real PITA. I see no reason to anticipate that it will > > get better anytime soon. Hell, think of how long its going to take > > before people start doing the math on how much a trawler or > > motorsailor's hundreds if not thousands of gallons of diesel are worth > > in this current market? > > > > Fact remains, as it has always been, there are some 'bad' people out > > there who will take your property and your life if you permit it. > > Like I said, I believe in escalating defense systems, and the 'court' > > of last resort for this sea going lawyer, has always been a reliable > > and accessible firearm. As for this 'turn in all your weapons at each > > port' bs, for thirty years I've carried several always accessible > > anti-shark 'bangstiks', legal everywhere and never given a second > > thought. Not only a useful club, but talk about 'reach out and touch > > someone'..... There are also a number of 'flare' guns that are > > prengineered to take 12gauge buckshot. With a good bottle of scotch, > > and a comfortable chair, almost anyone can brainstorm a few other > > useful little gadgets that might come in handy. The bottom line is > > that if one's plan is to rely upon the cavalry sailing in over the > > horizon, well...that wouldn't be my personal choice. > > > > Lastly, Ted, regarding the turning off of the alarms? I knew one > > fellow that would intentionally 'accidentally' set off one every now > > and then just so everyone around knew the boat was protected..(course > > he had more than one system:) the others remained incognito). > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > Seer, > > > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > > > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > > > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > > > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign > > > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > > > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing > > > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at > > > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > > > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > > > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a battery > > > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > > > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be irritating > > > if you forget to turn them off. > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8973|8945|2005-10-02 15:57:22|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Thank you for the information. Is Beckman still making them ? What did they officially call 'em and say they were for ? You don't know if anyone else makes them if Beckman doesn't do you ? The reason I ask is that having a commercial name in trying to search for something like this will help :-) Thanks again, Courtney On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 14:42, seeratlas wrote: > Mine were sold by Beckman Inst. back in the seventies. They are a > stainless tube with two sections. The front or muzzle section is the > carrier, it is loaded with the round of choice, I use 9mm rounds. this > carrier is grooved for neoprene rings and once the round is loaded > into the 'cylinder' this forward section is loaded into the tube. > When you jam it against something the entire carrier is shoved > backwards against the resistance of a spring into the firing pin > mechanism which makes the round go off in contact with whatever you > are shoving it against. Depending on the round you choose...well, you > can imagine what the combined bullet and blast can do. When used in > the air as opposed to underwater a side effect is the force with which > whatever you are 'banging' goes flying backwards. > > A guy handy with a machine lathe and some time on his hands could work > one up in a few hours. Don't go overboard on the size of your round. > If you want to make things a bit more interesting, you can make the > thing with sliding tubes, so that instead of requiring contact which > mine do, you could essentially make it simulate a pump shotgun. ATF > might have something to say about that tho, so I'd be low key if I > went that route. Perhaps a twist or two to change it from impact > firing to slide action firing.. Some years ago the DIA whipped up a > few similar type weaps designed to look variously like canes and > crutches, and the russian kgb assassinated a rather famous defector in > europe by using the same principle but instead injecting a poison thru > the nose of an umbrella. > > One advantage of having the round in a 'carrier' is that you can > reload the gun quite rapidly by swapping in additional carriers > without taking the time to replace the individual rounds. The > Canadian customs guys once asked me about the one I had mounted near > the hatch, a simple "It's a Shark stick" was all the explanation they > required. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > > More details on the anti-shark bangsticks, please :-) > > e.g. where'd do you get 'em, how do they work, what do they cost, etc... > > > > Thanks, > > Courtney > > > > > > On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 11:59, seeratlas wrote: > > > Ted, > > > the message of Viet Nam was NOT that superior force does not work, it > > > was that if you're going to use force, you have to have the guts to > > > not only whip it out, but to use it, and carry things thru to > > > conclusion. The VC didn't drive the US out of VietNam, heheh the US > > > State Department did. Somalia is an even greater example of > > > non-military types with agendas trying to micromanage a conflict. If > > > you don't think those Rangers were ready, willing and able to go back > > > in and clean those boys out,,then you just don't know Rangers...They > > > were specifically and directly ordered to stand down, and were then > > > pulled from the area. > > > > > > The VietNam war could have been 'won' on any number of occasions, the > > > first being when the entire southern leadership was holed up in a > > > tunnel complex one level below the one where the officer in charge > > > decided to pull the Aussie tunnel rats despite their protests that > > > they were almost sure a large group of VC lay just below them. They > > > were absolutely correct, the officer in charge was hungry and wanted > > > lunch...so... It is important to remember that the world press (with > > > exceptions in certain totalitarian countries) operates in a vacuum of > > > control, have no direct lines of communication or access to the 'boots > > > on the ground', and often have a predisposition to 'characterize' > > > matters in accordance with whatever agenda they happen to embrace at > > > the time. To rely upon press accounts of how the Viet Nam and other > > > 'wars' were fought/won/lost etc. is to take a flying leap through the > > > proverbial looking glass. > > > > > > With respect to Sir Peter, he was a great man, but he was no warrior > > > and made a number of mistakes. When confronted with a large group of > > > armed and desperate criminals, its unwise to pull out a single weapon > > > in an attempt to frighten them into submission.. this is not rocket > > > science, but Sir Peter feared little on this earth, and in this > > > instance it appears his pride was his downfall. But again, it is not > > > my place to criticize a great sailor, and a great man. > > > > > > I am in total agreement that the defense of a boat should be a > > > thoughtfully managed system where a response can be escalated as the > > > situation requires. The first element of this 'system' should be > > > rational design of the hatches and other access points. I'd go even > > > farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. > > > > > > Anything that dissuades someone from even approaching the boat with > > > bad intentions is a good way to start. I'm not advocating the OK > > > corral scenario when someone even looks at your sideways... Some > > > sailors I've known purposefully spread dilapidated sail covers, dirt, > > > make their own stains etc. when approaching a questionable port so as > > > to not put out the 'here comes a fat cat american just ripe for > > > plucking' sign upon entry. Simple proximity alarms are useful in > > > dissuading curious but otherwise harmless kids and teens. > > > Unfortunately, the last 20 years has seen a major escalation in > > > attacks on boats and their owners in all parts of the world. Trying to > > > keep track of a nice dinghy in a number of places in the Carribs has > > > gotten to be a real PITA. I see no reason to anticipate that it will > > > get better anytime soon. Hell, think of how long its going to take > > > before people start doing the math on how much a trawler or > > > motorsailor's hundreds if not thousands of gallons of diesel are worth > > > in this current market? > > > > > > Fact remains, as it has always been, there are some 'bad' people out > > > there who will take your property and your life if you permit it. > > > Like I said, I believe in escalating defense systems, and the 'court' > > > of last resort for this sea going lawyer, has always been a reliable > > > and accessible firearm. As for this 'turn in all your weapons at each > > > port' bs, for thirty years I've carried several always accessible > > > anti-shark 'bangstiks', legal everywhere and never given a second > > > thought. Not only a useful club, but talk about 'reach out and touch > > > someone'..... There are also a number of 'flare' guns that are > > > prengineered to take 12gauge buckshot. With a good bottle of scotch, > > > and a comfortable chair, almost anyone can brainstorm a few other > > > useful little gadgets that might come in handy. The bottom line is > > > that if one's plan is to rely upon the cavalry sailing in over the > > > horizon, well...that wouldn't be my personal choice. > > > > > > Lastly, Ted, regarding the turning off of the alarms? I knew one > > > fellow that would intentionally 'accidentally' set off one every now > > > and then just so everyone around knew the boat was protected..(course > > > he had more than one system:) the others remained incognito). > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > Seer, > > > > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > > > > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > > > > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > > > > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the > foreign > > > > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > > > > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for > killing > > > > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a > swipe at > > > > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > > > > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > > > > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a > battery > > > > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > > > > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be > irritating > > > > if you forget to turn them off. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 8974|8945|2005-10-02 17:06:01|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|I'll have to check around and see what I can find out. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Thank you for the information. > > Is Beckman still making them ? What did they officially call 'em and say > they were for ? > > You don't know if anyone else makes them if Beckman doesn't do you ? > > The reason I ask is that having a commercial name in trying to search > for something like this will help :-) > > Thanks again, > > Courtney > > > On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 14:42, seeratlas wrote: > > Mine were sold by Beckman Inst. back in the seventies. They are a > > stainless tube with two sections. The front or muzzle section is the > > carrier, it is loaded with the round of choice, I use 9mm rounds. this > > carrier is grooved for neoprene rings and once the round is loaded > > into the 'cylinder' this forward section is loaded into the tube. > > When you jam it against something the entire carrier is shoved > > backwards against the resistance of a spring into the firing pin > > mechanism which makes the round go off in contact with whatever you > > are shoving it against. Depending on the round you choose...well, you > > can imagine what the combined bullet and blast can do. When used in > > the air as opposed to underwater a side effect is the force with which > > whatever you are 'banging' goes flying backwards. > > > > A guy handy with a machine lathe and some time on his hands could work > > one up in a few hours. Don't go overboard on the size of your round. > > If you want to make things a bit more interesting, you can make the > > thing with sliding tubes, so that instead of requiring contact which > > mine do, you could essentially make it simulate a pump shotgun. ATF > > might have something to say about that tho, so I'd be low key if I > > went that route. Perhaps a twist or two to change it from impact > > firing to slide action firing.. Some years ago the DIA whipped up a > > few similar type weaps designed to look variously like canes and > > crutches, and the russian kgb assassinated a rather famous defector in > > europe by using the same principle but instead injecting a poison thru > > the nose of an umbrella. > > > > One advantage of having the round in a 'carrier' is that you can > > reload the gun quite rapidly by swapping in additional carriers > > without taking the time to replace the individual rounds. The > > Canadian customs guys once asked me about the one I had mounted near > > the hatch, a simple "It's a Shark stick" was all the explanation they > > required. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > > More details on the anti-shark bangsticks, please :-) > > > e.g. where'd do you get 'em, how do they work, what do they cost, etc... > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 11:59, seeratlas wrote: > > > > Ted, > > > > the message of Viet Nam was NOT that superior force does not work, it > > > > was that if you're going to use force, you have to have the guts to > > > > not only whip it out, but to use it, and carry things thru to > > > > conclusion. The VC didn't drive the US out of VietNam, heheh the US > > > > State Department did. Somalia is an even greater example of > > > > non-military types with agendas trying to micromanage a conflict. If > > > > you don't think those Rangers were ready, willing and able to go back > > > > in and clean those boys out,,then you just don't know Rangers...They > > > > were specifically and directly ordered to stand down, and were then > > > > pulled from the area. > > > > > > > > The VietNam war could have been 'won' on any number of occasions, the > > > > first being when the entire southern leadership was holed up in a > > > > tunnel complex one level below the one where the officer in charge > > > > decided to pull the Aussie tunnel rats despite their protests that > > > > they were almost sure a large group of VC lay just below them. They > > > > were absolutely correct, the officer in charge was hungry and wanted > > > > lunch...so... It is important to remember that the world press (with > > > > exceptions in certain totalitarian countries) operates in a vacuum of > > > > control, have no direct lines of communication or access to the 'boots > > > > on the ground', and often have a predisposition to 'characterize' > > > > matters in accordance with whatever agenda they happen to embrace at > > > > the time. To rely upon press accounts of how the Viet Nam and other > > > > 'wars' were fought/won/lost etc. is to take a flying leap through the > > > > proverbial looking glass. > > > > > > > > With respect to Sir Peter, he was a great man, but he was no warrior > > > > and made a number of mistakes. When confronted with a large group of > > > > armed and desperate criminals, its unwise to pull out a single weapon > > > > in an attempt to frighten them into submission.. this is not rocket > > > > science, but Sir Peter feared little on this earth, and in this > > > > instance it appears his pride was his downfall. But again, it is not > > > > my place to criticize a great sailor, and a great man. > > > > > > > > I am in total agreement that the defense of a boat should be a > > > > thoughtfully managed system where a response can be escalated as the > > > > situation requires. The first element of this 'system' should be > > > > rational design of the hatches and other access points. I'd go even > > > > farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. > > > > > > > > Anything that dissuades someone from even approaching the boat with > > > > bad intentions is a good way to start. I'm not advocating the OK > > > > corral scenario when someone even looks at your sideways... Some > > > > sailors I've known purposefully spread dilapidated sail covers, dirt, > > > > make their own stains etc. when approaching a questionable port so as > > > > to not put out the 'here comes a fat cat american just ripe for > > > > plucking' sign upon entry. Simple proximity alarms are useful in > > > > dissuading curious but otherwise harmless kids and teens. > > > > Unfortunately, the last 20 years has seen a major escalation in > > > > attacks on boats and their owners in all parts of the world. Trying to > > > > keep track of a nice dinghy in a number of places in the Carribs has > > > > gotten to be a real PITA. I see no reason to anticipate that it will > > > > get better anytime soon. Hell, think of how long its going to take > > > > before people start doing the math on how much a trawler or > > > > motorsailor's hundreds if not thousands of gallons of diesel are worth > > > > in this current market? > > > > > > > > Fact remains, as it has always been, there are some 'bad' people out > > > > there who will take your property and your life if you permit it. > > > > Like I said, I believe in escalating defense systems, and the 'court' > > > > of last resort for this sea going lawyer, has always been a reliable > > > > and accessible firearm. As for this 'turn in all your weapons at each > > > > port' bs, for thirty years I've carried several always accessible > > > > anti-shark 'bangstiks', legal everywhere and never given a second > > > > thought. Not only a useful club, but talk about 'reach out and touch > > > > someone'..... There are also a number of 'flare' guns that are > > > > prengineered to take 12gauge buckshot. With a good bottle of scotch, > > > > and a comfortable chair, almost anyone can brainstorm a few other > > > > useful little gadgets that might come in handy. The bottom line is > > > > that if one's plan is to rely upon the cavalry sailing in over the > > > > horizon, well...that wouldn't be my personal choice. > > > > > > > > Lastly, Ted, regarding the turning off of the alarms? I knew one > > > > fellow that would intentionally 'accidentally' set off one every now > > > > and then just so everyone around knew the boat was protected..(course > > > > he had more than one system:) the others remained incognito). > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Seer, > > > > > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > > > > > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > > > > > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > > > > > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the > > foreign > > > > > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > > > > > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for > > killing > > > > > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a > > swipe at > > > > > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > > > > > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > > > > > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a > > battery > > > > > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > > > > > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be > > irritating > > > > > if you forget to turn them off. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8975|8945|2005-10-02 17:07:58|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Here's an Aussie version. http://www.bluewaterhunter.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/shop_bangsticks.html :) seer btw, 44rem mag without some recoil absorbing mechanism could break your wrist if its not locked and straight. be careful --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Thank you for the information. > > Is Beckman still making them ? What did they officially call 'em and say > they were for ? > > You don't know if anyone else makes them if Beckman doesn't do you ? > > The reason I ask is that having a commercial name in trying to search > for something like this will help :-) > > Thanks again, > > Courtney > > > On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 14:42, seeratlas wrote: > > Mine were sold by Beckman Inst. back in the seventies. They are a > > stainless tube with two sections. The front or muzzle section is the > > carrier, it is loaded with the round of choice, I use 9mm rounds. this > > carrier is grooved for neoprene rings and once the round is loaded > > into the 'cylinder' this forward section is loaded into the tube. > > When you jam it against something the entire carrier is shoved > > backwards against the resistance of a spring into the firing pin > > mechanism which makes the round go off in contact with whatever you > > are shoving it against. Depending on the round you choose...well, you > > can imagine what the combined bullet and blast can do. When used in > > the air as opposed to underwater a side effect is the force with which > > whatever you are 'banging' goes flying backwards. > > > > A guy handy with a machine lathe and some time on his hands could work > > one up in a few hours. Don't go overboard on the size of your round. > > If you want to make things a bit more interesting, you can make the > > thing with sliding tubes, so that instead of requiring contact which > > mine do, you could essentially make it simulate a pump shotgun. ATF > > might have something to say about that tho, so I'd be low key if I > > went that route. Perhaps a twist or two to change it from impact > > firing to slide action firing.. Some years ago the DIA whipped up a > > few similar type weaps designed to look variously like canes and > > crutches, and the russian kgb assassinated a rather famous defector in > > europe by using the same principle but instead injecting a poison thru > > the nose of an umbrella. > > > > One advantage of having the round in a 'carrier' is that you can > > reload the gun quite rapidly by swapping in additional carriers > > without taking the time to replace the individual rounds. The > > Canadian customs guys once asked me about the one I had mounted near > > the hatch, a simple "It's a Shark stick" was all the explanation they > > required. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > > More details on the anti-shark bangsticks, please :-) > > > e.g. where'd do you get 'em, how do they work, what do they cost, etc... > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 11:59, seeratlas wrote: > > > > Ted, > > > > the message of Viet Nam was NOT that superior force does not work, it > > > > was that if you're going to use force, you have to have the guts to > > > > not only whip it out, but to use it, and carry things thru to > > > > conclusion. The VC didn't drive the US out of VietNam, heheh the US > > > > State Department did. Somalia is an even greater example of > > > > non-military types with agendas trying to micromanage a conflict. If > > > > you don't think those Rangers were ready, willing and able to go back > > > > in and clean those boys out,,then you just don't know Rangers...They > > > > were specifically and directly ordered to stand down, and were then > > > > pulled from the area. > > > > > > > > The VietNam war could have been 'won' on any number of occasions, the > > > > first being when the entire southern leadership was holed up in a > > > > tunnel complex one level below the one where the officer in charge > > > > decided to pull the Aussie tunnel rats despite their protests that > > > > they were almost sure a large group of VC lay just below them. They > > > > were absolutely correct, the officer in charge was hungry and wanted > > > > lunch...so... It is important to remember that the world press (with > > > > exceptions in certain totalitarian countries) operates in a vacuum of > > > > control, have no direct lines of communication or access to the 'boots > > > > on the ground', and often have a predisposition to 'characterize' > > > > matters in accordance with whatever agenda they happen to embrace at > > > > the time. To rely upon press accounts of how the Viet Nam and other > > > > 'wars' were fought/won/lost etc. is to take a flying leap through the > > > > proverbial looking glass. > > > > > > > > With respect to Sir Peter, he was a great man, but he was no warrior > > > > and made a number of mistakes. When confronted with a large group of > > > > armed and desperate criminals, its unwise to pull out a single weapon > > > > in an attempt to frighten them into submission.. this is not rocket > > > > science, but Sir Peter feared little on this earth, and in this > > > > instance it appears his pride was his downfall. But again, it is not > > > > my place to criticize a great sailor, and a great man. > > > > > > > > I am in total agreement that the defense of a boat should be a > > > > thoughtfully managed system where a response can be escalated as the > > > > situation requires. The first element of this 'system' should be > > > > rational design of the hatches and other access points. I'd go even > > > > farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. > > > > > > > > Anything that dissuades someone from even approaching the boat with > > > > bad intentions is a good way to start. I'm not advocating the OK > > > > corral scenario when someone even looks at your sideways... Some > > > > sailors I've known purposefully spread dilapidated sail covers, dirt, > > > > make their own stains etc. when approaching a questionable port so as > > > > to not put out the 'here comes a fat cat american just ripe for > > > > plucking' sign upon entry. Simple proximity alarms are useful in > > > > dissuading curious but otherwise harmless kids and teens. > > > > Unfortunately, the last 20 years has seen a major escalation in > > > > attacks on boats and their owners in all parts of the world. Trying to > > > > keep track of a nice dinghy in a number of places in the Carribs has > > > > gotten to be a real PITA. I see no reason to anticipate that it will > > > > get better anytime soon. Hell, think of how long its going to take > > > > before people start doing the math on how much a trawler or > > > > motorsailor's hundreds if not thousands of gallons of diesel are worth > > > > in this current market? > > > > > > > > Fact remains, as it has always been, there are some 'bad' people out > > > > there who will take your property and your life if you permit it. > > > > Like I said, I believe in escalating defense systems, and the 'court' > > > > of last resort for this sea going lawyer, has always been a reliable > > > > and accessible firearm. As for this 'turn in all your weapons at each > > > > port' bs, for thirty years I've carried several always accessible > > > > anti-shark 'bangstiks', legal everywhere and never given a second > > > > thought. Not only a useful club, but talk about 'reach out and touch > > > > someone'..... There are also a number of 'flare' guns that are > > > > prengineered to take 12gauge buckshot. With a good bottle of scotch, > > > > and a comfortable chair, almost anyone can brainstorm a few other > > > > useful little gadgets that might come in handy. The bottom line is > > > > that if one's plan is to rely upon the cavalry sailing in over the > > > > horizon, well...that wouldn't be my personal choice. > > > > > > > > Lastly, Ted, regarding the turning off of the alarms? I knew one > > > > fellow that would intentionally 'accidentally' set off one every now > > > > and then just so everyone around knew the boat was protected..(course > > > > he had more than one system:) the others remained incognito). > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Seer, > > > > > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > > > > > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > > > > > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > > > > > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the > > foreign > > > > > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > > > > > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for > > killing > > > > > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a > > swipe at > > > > > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > > > > > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > > > > > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a > > battery > > > > > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > > > > > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be > > irritating > > > > > if you forget to turn them off. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 8976|8961|2005-10-03 05:48:58|Alex|Re: photo file|If you noticed that nobody could access the photo files, it is because they were stuffed full! I've dumped some photos, after finding the one huge photo someone had uploaded that froze the works. No one can upload anymore to this group but they can now view and download photos. Uploading can still be done in group two until that runs out, then we'll build group 3! Alex, yer moderator| 8977|8960|2005-10-03 06:23:50|sae140|Re: Freezing a steel boat into the ice for the winter?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Derrick, > Over on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/?yguid=25540395 > in message 7130 Annie Hill wrote a very detailed description of > overwintering in a steel boat in Greenland. The book "Time on Ice" by > Debora Shapiro and Rolf Bjelke, International Marine ISBN 1 84037 015 > 7 describes overwintering in a steel boat in Antartica. Caroline > Alexander in her book "The Endurance" Bloomsbury Publishing 1998 (ISBN > 0 7475 4123 x 10 9 8 7 6 5) about Shackleton's exbidition describes > what happens in a wooden boat when it goes wrong. > Regards, > Ted Could I also suggest that you take a trip over to the Wylo-II group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wylo-II/ There are a couple of files there about Iron Bark (Trevor Robertson/Annie Hill) in just your circumstances. Both Annie and Trevor are contactable by email from that group. Colin| 8978|8765|2005-10-03 06:52:20|sae140|Re: Savonious power|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Jerry, > When the batteries are fully charged and you have no need of power to > move your vessel, then there will be no load on the generators and > they will freewheel allowing the savonious rotor to overspeed. Hi Ted It's now become standard practice not to disconnect the power to the batteries when they're fully charged, but to electrically re-direct the power supply to a 'current dump' (my words), which is nothing more that a bank of low value, high power resistors. They then continue to act as a load and will soak up the energy and safely dump it as heat. That's not something I'd want to see happening continuously, but certainly useful during the night when getting a tether on the rotor might be dangerous in poor light conditions. BTW, I'd heard that some Savonious rotor designs are not self-starting, and are unsuitable for unattended use. Colin| 8979|8961|2005-10-03 11:02:51|Ray|Re: photo file|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tazmannusa" wrote: One thing that several of the other groups I frequent have done is to create an additional group ( OrgamiBoatPics? ) JUST for picture storage. just a thought, Ray Kimbro - wooden boat lover who's really intrigued with the metal origami idea. | 8980|8980|2005-10-03 15:43:41|SHANE ROTHWELL|It's Happening!!!!!!!|Hey guys, Sold the house last night! Moving to the Island & have to look after boring necessities like a house etc first but am now in the market for a 36'-40' Swain. Part of me says buy plate get going. Part of me says buy an existing hull & finnish it off. Either way guys, I'm looking. Will be looking at all options on houses & boats from Ladysmith to Courtenay. Other than Alex, who else is building or has a finnished 36-40' Brentboat that would be amenable to me dropping in to have a look-see on the east coast of the island? Bye the bye, also found a deal on moving boats. The bloke is based in the lower mainland, but they are on the island coupla times a week. claims he can move boats cheaper on the island than the locals who charge heaps. it's Bear Crane, blokes name is Bear 604-250-5777. Cheers, Shane __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca| 8981|8961|2005-10-03 15:50:47|Alex Christie|Re: photo file|Picture storage tank? Got that already! Origamiboats2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2 Alex On 3-Oct-05, at 8:00 AM, Ray wrote: > > > One thing that several of the other groups I frequent have done is to > create an additional group ( OrgamiBoatPics? ) JUST for picture > storage. > > just a thought, > > Ray Kimbro - wooden boat lover who's really intrigued with the metal > origami idea. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8982|8945|2005-10-03 16:31:18|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Jerry, I used the cases as an example, perhaps not very good ones of how one can be brave and armed but still not prevail. The following web site will give more details of piracy and you can google for others. http://www.imo.org/Newsroom/contents.asp?topic_id=67&doc_id=1060 I agree with much of what Seer says, but personally have not considered carrying arms. This may well reflect the fact that hand guns are illegal in the UK although I used to own a licenced 12 bore shotgun. I have heard of doubtfull characters made peacable by the giving of a carton of Marlboro and some cans of soft drink. Each situation is different and our reaction different. The world is becoming a much more desparate place though. Although I have not heard of one before I am fairly sure that a bang stick would be regarded as an offensive weapon and therefore be illegal in the UK. Regards, Ted| 8983|8945|2005-10-03 16:39:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Seer, You wrote: I'd go even farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to begin with. What is an apc? Regards, Ted| 8984|8765|2005-10-03 16:44:52|edward_stoneuk|Re: Savonious power|Colin, I hadn't heard of Savonious rotors for years until Jerry Scovel wrote about them. The last I heard, about 20 odd years ago, was that they were difficult to control and keep safe in high winds. Does anybody make commercial ones suitable for boat battery charging? Regards, Ted| 8985|8985|2005-10-03 16:59:13|Robert Mitchell|Re: Hatches and doors and bangsticks.|Re: Hatches and door ideas (and security on board) I've read that Joshua Slocum used thumb tacks spread on the deck to discourage Patagonian natives. I wouldn't recommend shooting someone with a bang-stick unless you want to kill them. I've seen one go off next to a small shark in Florida. Not much left of the shark. Rob| 8986|8945|2005-10-03 17:10:00|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|:) was a play on the 'Brent's boats are steel tanks', line of statement except the plate on Brent's designs wouldn't really justify the tank reference, thus my tongue in cheek scale down to the "APC" or "armored personnel carrier" :) seaborne of course heheheh seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > > You wrote: > > I'd go even farther and say that a steel 'apc' is a good platform to > begin with. > > What is an apc? > > Regards, > Ted | 8987|8985|2005-10-03 17:47:37|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and doors and bangsticks.|Just for the record, I don't recommend the employment of deadly force unless your life or someone else,s is in direct and immediate danger. Tho the legalities vary somewhat around the globe 'generally' speaking a human being is entitled to employ deadly force to save his own life or that of another when he 'reasonably' believes either to be in immediate physical danger, tho there are some jurisdictions that require you to retreat if possible. The law of the sea grants you somewhat more latitude as a captain of a ship is entitled to take such actions as he deems necessary to protect his ship and the lives thereon. (I once drew down on a shadow next to a searchlight which turned out to be a Coast Guard officer tho that's another story heheh) There is a caveat here that should be baldly stated and baldly understood. Some people are incapable of taking another's life, even if the cost of not doing so is the loss of their own. If you don't think you could bring yourself to kill someone, then deadly force is a moot point and alternative 'end game' strategies should be taken under consideration. While I will state that the primitive killing rage is hidden in all humans, in some, by their nature, it cannot be unleashed at will. On a boat being able to remain below, behind secure hatches, and control your ship, have access to your radios, these are all 'good' things. Being cautious about persons approaching your vessel uninvited, being aware of the proximity of persons unknown to you, just being careful....these also are 'good things'. Having some gadgets that give you an 'edge' whether by making noise, scareing would be bad guys, and ultimately dealing them some physical damage are also to me at least 'good things'. As for firearms, well believe me when i tell you it is a real beeatch to be the only one in a gun fight without a gun. Now, I have no reservations about confronting those who cast off the mantle of civilized behavior and take life back to the 'basics'. I will advise you that you can rely on them to take depravity in all the forms in which humans are capable, down to the very rock bottom. There are men who sit in conference rooms, smoke cigarettes like gentlement, converse with the media, smile for the cameras, and then don a hood and cut a man's head off with a six inch semi dull blade... and there are worse. Forewarned is forearmed. Chances are you will never encounter such men, but then again...some of us have, a lot. Be thoughtful, be careful, minimize risky behavior, and scale down your 'trust' level a few notches and you should be good to go. The Arabs have a saying, "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel". :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mitchell wrote: > Re: Hatches and door ideas (and security on board) > > I've read that Joshua Slocum used thumb tacks spread on the deck to discourage Patagonian > natives. > > I wouldn't recommend shooting someone with a bang-stick unless you want to kill them. > I've seen one go off next to a small shark in Florida. Not much left of the shark. > > > Rob | 8988|8980|2005-10-03 18:02:41|kingsknight4life|Re: It's Happening!!!!!!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hey guys, > > Sold the house last night! > > Moving to the Island & have to look after boring > necessities like a house etc first but am now in the > market for a 36'-40' Swain. > > Part of me says buy plate get going. Part of me says > buy an existing hull & finnish it off. Either way > guys, I'm looking. > > Will be looking at all options on houses & boats from > Ladysmith to Courtenay. > > Other than Alex, who else is building or has a > finnished 36-40' Brentboat that would be amenable to > me dropping in to have a look-see on the east coast of > the island? > > Bye the bye, also found a deal on moving boats. The > bloke is based in the lower mainland, but they are on > the island coupla times a week. claims he can move > boats cheaper on the island than the locals who charge > heaps. it's Bear Crane, blokes name is Bear > 604-250-5777. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > Shane I live in Duncan and am currently building a Swain36. I too moved from Edmonton to the Island. Feel free to drop by and see her. Just e-mail and I'll give you my number. Contact me @ (wildcatbjjAThotmailDOTcom) > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca | 8989|8765|2005-10-03 18:08:18|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|I believe that you can control the speed by increasing the load. on 10/3/05 3:33 PM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Colin, I hadn't heard of Savonious rotors for years until Jerry Scovel wrote about them. The last I heard, about 20 odd years ago, was that they were difficult to control and keep safe in high winds. Does anybody make commercial ones suitable for boat battery charging? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8990|8945|2005-10-03 18:16:02|Jerry Scovel|Re: Hatches and door ideas|I am content to use a 125# bow, deer arrows and a 15" bowie knife, they are legal nearly everywhere very effective. on 10/3/05 3:26 PM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@... wrote: Jerry, I used the cases as an example, perhaps not very good ones of how one can be brave and armed but still not prevail. The following web site will give more details of piracy and you can google for others. http://www.imo.org/Newsroom/contents.asp?topic_id=67&doc_id=1060 I agree with much of what Seer says, but personally have not considered carrying arms. This may well reflect the fact that hand guns are illegal in the UK although I used to own a licenced 12 bore shotgun. I have heard of doubtfull characters made peacable by the giving of a carton of Marlboro and some cans of soft drink. Each situation is different and our reaction different. The world is becoming a much more desparate place though. Although I have not heard of one before I am fairly sure that a bang stick would be regarded as an offensive weapon and therefore be illegal in the UK. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8991|8945|2005-10-03 19:46:06|seeratlas|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Damn jerry 125# will do an elephant, easy LOL. I shake like a 15 year old on his first date trying to pull 101. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel wrote: > I am content to use a 125# bow, deer arrows and a 15" bowie knife, they are > legal nearly everywhere very effective. > > > on 10/3/05 3:26 PM, edward_stoneuk at tedstone@g... wrote: > > Jerry, > I used the cases as an example, perhaps not very good ones of how one > can be brave and armed but still not prevail. > > The following web site will give more details of piracy and you can > google for others. > http://www.imo.org/Newsroom/contents.asp?topic_id=67&doc_id=1060 > > I agree with much of what Seer says, but personally have not > considered carrying arms. This may well reflect the fact that hand > guns are illegal in the UK although I used to own a licenced 12 bore > shotgun. I have heard of doubtfull characters made peacable by the > giving of a carton of Marlboro and some cans of soft drink. Each > situation is different and our reaction different. The world is > becoming a much more desparate place though. > > Although I have not heard of one before I am fairly sure that a bang > stick would be regarded as an offensive weapon and therefore be > illegal in the UK. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8992|8980|2005-10-03 23:59:05|gschnell|Re: It's Happening!!!!!!!|Right on, Shane. Gonna miss you here in Vancouver. Another reason to get this thing finsihed and in the water. Gord SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hey guys, > > Sold the house last night! > > Moving to the Island & have to look after boring > necessities like a house etc first but am now in the > market for a 36'-40' Swain. > > Part of me says buy plate get going. Part of me says > buy an existing hull & finnish it off. Either way > guys, I'm looking. > > Will be looking at all options on houses & boats from > Ladysmith to Courtenay. > > Other than Alex, who else is building or has a > finnished 36-40' Brentboat that would be amenable to > me dropping in to have a look-see on the east coast of > the island? > > Bye the bye, also found a deal on moving boats. The > bloke is based in the lower mainland, but they are on > the island coupla times a week. claims he can move > boats cheaper on the island than the locals who charge > heaps. it's Bear Crane, blokes name is Bear > 604-250-5777. > > Cheers, > Shane > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8994|8765|2005-10-04 04:59:41|sae140|Re: Savonious power|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Colin, > I hadn't heard of Savonious rotors for years until Jerry Scovel wrote > about them. The last I heard, about 20 odd years ago, was that they > were difficult to control and keep safe in high winds. Does anybody > make commercial ones suitable for boat battery charging? > Regards, > Ted Hi Ted the only designs I've seen are on the various DIY windgenerator sites. As a kid I remember seeing portable rotating shop signs out on the pavement that used to whizz around like good 'uns - no problems with self-starting there - but then they didn't have any kind of load. Wouldn't surprise me if the EU haven't outlawed those type of signs as being "dangerous to passing ankles" (groan ...) > I believe that you can control the speed by increasing the load. Hi Jerry That's absolutely true - but within limits. By gradually increasing the load (including power dumps) the speed can gradually be reduced - indeed the ultimate electronic brake would be to completely short the output (i.e. infinite load). In light winds that would work ok, but under gale conditions if the rotor should begin to turn, then a very large current would appear in the windings of the generator and in the wiring down to the control panel. If Murphy is on the crew list, then damage (even a fire) might result. If really bad winds are forecast, then some kind of physical brake (tying-off or similar) is still the safest bet. On one of the DIY generator sites I spotted a brilliantly simple device for regulating a conventional prop generator - nothing more than the generator head being hinged to the support pole and kept in place by a spring. When the wind- speed force exceeds the spring tension, the head simply tilts backwards and slows accordingly. When the wind pressure drops, it regains it's original attitude. Self-regulatory, and self- attending. Neat. But nothing similar for Savonious rotors, afaik. Colin| 8995|8945|2005-10-04 07:45:26|Sugar|Re: Hatches and door ideas|Hi all, I'm getting in on this post a little late and I haven't read past this post so I may be getting ahead of myself. I do want to add one thing about your post Ted. I understand that armed reponses don't always work. I'm a girl. And on all the shows regarding women, being caught off guard, attacked, etc. the experts always tell us to fight back, get away and run. Well on the sea I can't call for a police officer, and I don't see where I could get away and run so that just leaves me with fighting back. I will always have a loaded gun and if necessary, I will fight back. The shows show that quite often they plan on harming or killing women. I figure on the seas we're all lumped into the same group. And the potential for being hurt is pretty high when it comes to pirates. In regards to the hatch, I'd want to be able to crawl out of the hatch incase there was an emergency down below. I have a question about your burglar alarm. I can see that the alarm would help let you know if someone was entering onto your boat. I would guess it makes a loud sound as a deterent to hopefully make them run. But if you were out on the ocean and the alarm went off, and someone was boarding your ship, what would you do? I'm not trying to be a smart a_ _ . I'm serious in asking. Now what do we do? I'm interested in having any and all options on board. I like the idea of the mace you mentioned and where it was located. Any and all things like that might help. But some people aren't really affected by mace. I know. My brother was a cop for 24 years. So we have the alarm, the mace, what else can you use to protect yourself and make them leave? Anyone else have any ideas? Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a battery > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be irritating > if you forget to turn them off. > Regards, > Ted | 8996|8980|2005-10-04 08:04:05|Sugar|Re: It's Happening!!!!!!!|Congrats Shane !!! Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Right on, Shane. Gonna miss you here in Vancouver. Another reason to get > this thing finsihed and in the water. > Gord > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > Hey guys, > > > > Sold the house last night! > > > > Moving to the Island & have to look after boring > > necessities like a house etc first but am now in the > > market for a 36'-40' Swain. > > > > Part of me says buy plate get going. Part of me says > > buy an existing hull & finnish it off. Either way > > guys, I'm looking. > > > > Will be looking at all options on houses & boats from > > Ladysmith to Courtenay. > > > > Other than Alex, who else is building or has a > > finnished 36-40' Brentboat that would be amenable to > > me dropping in to have a look-see on the east coast of > > the island? > > > > Bye the bye, also found a deal on moving boats. The > > bloke is based in the lower mainland, but they are on > > the island coupla times a week. claims he can move > > boats cheaper on the island than the locals who charge > > heaps. it's Bear Crane, blokes name is Bear > > 604-250-5777. > > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 8997|8765|2005-10-04 08:58:37|Jerry Scovel|Re: Savonious power|Since it will use a truck differential to go from vertical to horizontal rotation I could leave the brake drums on. on 10/4/05 3:49 AM, sae140 at colinpowell@... wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Colin, > I hadn't heard of Savonious rotors for years until Jerry Scovel wrote > about them. The last I heard, about 20 odd years ago, was that they > were difficult to control and keep safe in high winds. Does anybody > make commercial ones suitable for boat battery charging? > Regards, > Ted Hi Ted the only designs I've seen are on the various DIY windgenerator sites. As a kid I remember seeing portable rotating shop signs out on the pavement that used to whizz around like good 'uns - no problems with self-starting there - but then they didn't have any kind of load. Wouldn't surprise me if the EU haven't outlawed those type of signs as being "dangerous to passing ankles" (groan ...) > I believe that you can control the speed by increasing the load. Hi Jerry That's absolutely true - but within limits. By gradually increasing the load (including power dumps) the speed can gradually be reduced - indeed the ultimate electronic brake would be to completely short the output (i.e. infinite load). In light winds that would work ok, but under gale conditions if the rotor should begin to turn, then a very large current would appear in the windings of the generator and in the wiring down to the control panel. If Murphy is on the crew list, then damage (even a fire) might result. If really bad winds are forecast, then some kind of physical brake (tying-off or similar) is still the safest bet. On one of the DIY generator sites I spotted a brilliantly simple device for regulating a conventional prop generator - nothing more than the generator head being hinged to the support pole and kept in place by a spring. When the wind- speed force exceeds the spring tension, the head simply tilts backwards and slows accordingly. When the wind pressure drops, it regains it's original attitude. Self-regulatory, and self- attending. Neat. But nothing similar for Savonious rotors, afaik. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8998|8945|2005-10-04 09:18:25|Jerry Scovel|Re: Hatches and door ideas|on 10/4/05 6:45 AM, Sugar at seeratlasangel@... wrote: Hi all, I'm getting in on this post a little late and I haven't read past this post so I may be getting ahead of myself. I do want to add one thing about your post Ted. I understand that armed reponses don't always work. I'm a girl. And on all the shows regarding women, being caught off guard, attacked, etc. the experts always tell us to fight back, get away and run. Well on the sea I can't call for a police officer, and I don't see where I could get away and run so that just leaves me with fighting back. I will always have a loaded gun and if necessary, I will fight back. The shows show that quite often they plan on harming or killing women. I figure on the seas we're all lumped into the same group. And the potential for being hurt is pretty high when it comes to pirates. In regards to the hatch, I'd want to be able to crawl out of the hatch incase there was an emergency down below. I have a question about your burglar alarm. I can see that the alarm would help let you know if someone was entering onto your boat. I would guess it makes a loud sound as a deterent to hopefully make them run. But if you were out on the ocean and the alarm went off, and someone was boarding your ship, what would you do? I'm not trying to be a smart a_ _ . I'm serious in asking. Now what do we do? I'm interested in having any and all options on board. I like the idea of the mace you mentioned and where it was located. Any and all things like that might help. But some people aren't really affected by mace. I know. My brother was a cop for 24 years. So we have the alarm, the mace, what else can you use to protect yourself and make them leave? Anyone else have any ideas? Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Seer, > Its not just you, I whould imagine that all of us would rather be > alive than dead. My example of Sir Peter Blake shows that armed > response does not always work. History tells us that the armed > conflict in Vietnam, and Somalia did not work either for the foreign > nation, who was also the better armed. The jail at Guantamano Bay > shows how folks react to foreigners who may be responsible for killing > their countrymen and women. In case you think I am having a swipe at > the US, British history and the present is littered with similar > examples. Neither death nor incarceration appeals so one looks for > ways in terms of hatches and doors that avoid both. I have a battery > operated PIR burglar alarm that worked quite well for a couple of > years before giving up the ghost. They are good but can be irritating > if you forget to turn them off. > Regards, > Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 8999|8945|2005-10-04 10:43:15|audeojude|Bank Sticks and other means of self defense|http://www.freediver.net/freedivelist/faqstuff/faq_bangsticks.html http://bluewaterhunter.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ shop_bangsticks_biller.html this is very cool link in that they talk about actuall use underwater of variuse caliber bang sticks http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/underwater_shooting.html I actually had this conversation a couple days ago at the after race cookout for the local sailing club. A few of us brainstormed many cruel and unusual things to do to poor unsuspecting bad guys that intend to hurt you and your boat while you are out cruising and subject to different nations customs officers and laws. :) several of us were ex-military with training in unconventional explosives, booby traps and weapons, it was a creative conversation to say the least :) If it is pirates with automatic weapons though these would just piss them off so that they will shoot you and your steel boat full of holes like a pieces of swiss cheese. I want to make a point I have not heard anyone make explicitly. Military rifles shooting at a steel boat such as brents will open it up like a can oppener. the steel is just too thin to stop a rile round moving in excess of 3000 ft per second. It might delect it if it hits at an angle but at any reasonable range shooting straight at the sides of the boat or cabin these bullets will go right through the metal and out the other side.. or maybe ricochet around inside the boat. I won't go into most of the bad guys die in gruesome ways ideas we came up with. But we came up with several easy to moderatly difficult ways to deter most people trying to break into your boat or harm you. 1. simply being able to secure the boat so entry is difficult with out major tools such as a torch or metal cutting saw. brents boats are ideal for this passive defense that will work well in most populated anchorages where your risk is covert breaking and entering. The assailants will not wish to have the whole harbor knowing they are robbing you at gun or knife point. 2. A very powerfull strobe light and alarm that can be triggered manually or by motion detection when you are not there. You can get strobes that will temporarly blind someone if they are looking at it when it goes off. this is very effective :) also if you are looking at fighting the militarily armed pirates on the high seas this will help if aimed at them under the right circumstances as its hard to acurately shoot as someone when you can't see. Also sound is a impresive weapon all on its own. It call attention to your boat. People breaking the law dont like attention drawn to them. Also past a certain level sound can physically damage someone. inside your foamed steel hull you should be protected from most of the sound at levels that will physicaly hurt a person on the deck or beside the boat. 3. Mace.... its nasty and semi effective. this is for those people that have already gained your decks and are close enough to hit with it. However someone that has had training or is hopped up on drugs can continue to funtion with a face full of mace even though it is seriously hurting them.. especially if they have warning that it is going to be used on them. 4. a little more difficult but that could affect the intire area around your boat or down wind if much of a breeze is blowing is a system that allows you to pump smoke out over the decks of the boat and out the sides from burning capsesian (distilled hot peppers) If you have ever burn't your dinner you were making with really hot peppers or hot sause and remember how difficult it was to breath in the vicinity till you aired out the kitchen will get the idea for this. I will leave it up to you to figure out the details for this :) 5. another more work idea... get a large pump that runs off your engine and powers a deck mounted water cannon.. at a couple hundered psi you should be able to generate a stream of water that will knock a man off his feet more than 150 ft away.. not to mention that you can put out boat fires for your neighboors and have a monster bilge pump with the turn of a valve. :) you should be able to make or buy a used one from a fire department etc.. 6. Bank sticks... everyone has already talked about these. 7. flare gun.. they are legal on boats everywhere.. actually they are required most places :).. being hit with a burning flare is nasty..bad bad..... you can also purchase flare guns made to accept and be safe firing 12 ad 20 gauge shot gun shells. 8. shotgun.... for a fire arm they are much more accepted around the world than pistols or rifles.. they can fire buckshot and slugs that will open major holes in boats. if your goal is self defense in a limited arena a shot gun is the only firearm that makes sense. forget about how cool you look with a pistol. shot guns are much scarier looking to the person your pointing them at and your much more likely to do damage to them with it than with a pistol. 9. tasers... not a lot of experience with these but hey it should work if you know how to use them. maybe a heavy duty cattle prod :) stuck through a port hole. 10. the knowledge that weapons are not dangerous.. There are only dangerous people. A gun or any other weapon is going to sit where you last laid it and watch you get killed. It will not go off on its own to protect you. A person coming at you with a weapon or intent to harm you is a dangerous person. In that they have the will, intent and probably the ability to hurt you unless you have taken precautions. 11. A pre thought out and practiced responce plan to different types of threats. 11a You should know and have practiced with your crew what to do when boarded at night in a populated harbor by someone with a knife or (someones) with knifes. Stay locked up in your steel vault :) sound alarm set off strobe spray with mace etc.. not lethal is addequet. 11b. What you do when boarded by someone with a saturday night special pistol (cheap low caliber pistol that most likely wont penitrate your steel hull.) do 11a and then posibly use bang stick or flare gun if they start shooting. maybe pre-empt them and shoot first.. 11c what to do when boarded by persons with military weapons. unless your a serious bad ass with training just surrender and pray. Bad ass is probably going to get hurt anyways unless he is able to overwhelm them very quickly. 11d What to do when being closed on by a boat with no military weapons.. you have a multi ton steel boat.. it is a weapon in its own right you can ram. fire shot gun in air over their heads.. make sure your not standing in open as they might have guns they haven't shown yet. but try to scare them away. if none of that works buck shot into the people and try to blow holes in water line. 11e Being pursued by a boat with a 50 caliber rifle mounted... surender!! They can shoot you from as far as they can see you and it will make holes the size of dinner plates going into and out the other side of your steel boat. my point is that you need to think about and have a plan that everyone on your boat knows for different situations and you should practice them just like you do or should do man overboard drills. you can have all the deterents on board i have listed above and if you aren't comfortable using them the bad guys will glady take them away from you and then use them on you and their next victim. All this applies to living in your house much less on a boat. If you have self defense devices in your house to protect your family you need to practice with them and also have your family trained to respond to break in situations. scott| 9000|8961|2005-10-04 11:09:01|Ray|Re: photo file|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > Picture storage tank? Got that already! Origamiboats2 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2 > > Alex > Y'all are just too fast for me. :-) Thanks -|