11001|10998|2006-05-10 18:34:45|kendall|Re: Sea Clear 11|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > Hello, all - > > On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 05:43:14PM -0000, Gary wrote: > > Anyone using this...it is charting freeware available on line as a > > free download. Since I have a notebook computer I thought I would > > check this out. I am not looking for a complicated multi function > > system, just basic gps plotted on a chart. This looks like it may > > do. And, lastly are there electronic charts available for BC and > > south seas with Sea Clear. Also, any opinions on use of notebook and > > ECS would be welcomed. > > I've been using a notebook and ECS for many years now. Don't get me > wrong - they'll have to pry my paper charts from my cold dead hands, > etc. - but I really like having the ECS option for planning and as a > backup. > > However, I don't do Windows - I'm a Linux user - so I don't know how > useful you'll find my answer. My favorite mapping software is Mayko > "xmap" (free download from http://fresh.t-systems-sfr.com/linux/src/ - > note that there are three files there with "mxmap" in the name, one of > which is a bunch of sample maps.) It reads BSB charts, does GPS > tracking, allows you to construct/follow routes, set markers, "scribble" > on the charts, and do lots of other goodies. It also allows you to use, > e.g., a scan of a map - you just set the lat/long of diagonally opposing > corners, and away you go. > > I've also tried SeeMyDEnc, from http://www.sevencs.com/ , but was > unimpressed with it. Perhaps it's the fact that the freely-available > NOAA charts are of such low quality, or that I can't find any > high-quality S-57 or ENC format charts, but I don't feel like struggling > to climb a hill when I don't need to. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > Hey great!, been a linux user for a while, and while not actively seeking a linux chart program, have kept my eyes open, I'm off to check them out now. (that's why I love these lists!) ken.| 11002|10997|2006-05-10 20:35:23|tom|Re: Devoe Primers|Hello Paul Glad to see more 26's being built. I am no expert on the paints and primers, But I would recomend getting ahold of devoe and explain to them what youre doing + the type of paint your going to use over it and see what they say about it. Where are you building ? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Devoe Primers > Hi Folks, > > Has anyone had any experience with Devoe zinc-rich primers? I'll be > ordering some steel soon for a BS26 and I will be having it blasted > and primed by a local outfit. They have more experience with Devoe > products (they didn't seem real comfortable using Carboweld) so I am > inclined to use Devoe if the primer is satisfactory. > > Seems Devoe 302 is the primer to use, yes? > > Comments? > > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11003|10968|2006-05-10 21:04:36|gschnell|Re: Pictures of 40' Please|I would be interested in seeing it. I'm sure we could have a great ideas exchange. Gord mickeyolaf wrote: > You two will have to get together and compare/exchange notes. Next > trip to Richmond I will post the address. He has it under a blue > tarp, deck and house are on, cockpit done, transom hung rudder. > About five minutes from Steveston east and north. > I think it is the 40 hull and deck built in Kelowna by Len Blower > out of Aluminum. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > > > Mine is also being built in Richmond, but not Steveston. I'm out > in the > > Queensborough area. > > Gord > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > Is yours the BS 40 being built in Steveston, Richmond? If not > then > > > are two. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > I have a BS40 under construction. The aft berth (that is what > we > > > are > > > > using the space for) is under the cockpit and behind the > > > companionway > > > > stair. As such, the access is rather indirect (to the SB of the > > > > companionway stair) and headroom is limited. To address the > > > dressing and > > > > undressing challenges, we have created a full-height (standing > > > room) > > > > "changing-room" at the entrance to the aft-berth (the SB rear > > > corner of > > > > the pilothouse). From there on in, one must stoop or crawl > into a > > > very > > > > large V-berth and sitting area.. > > > > I believe there is room for two independent sleeping areas > under > > > there, > > > > but access might have to be created from each side of the > > > companionway > > > > stair, directly into each "stateroom". Kids love that kind of > > > stuff. > > > > Adults are a little adverse to it. An alternative might be > moving > > > the > > > > companionway to one side of the pilothouse, but then you will > have > > > > cockpit problems. I pondered this same situation for a long > while > > > and > > > > what I have done was the best solution my limited intelligence > > > could > > > > conjure. > > > > To the best of my knowledge, I am the only BS40 under > > > construction, but > > > > others may be planning one. Maybe someone else has a more > creative > > > > solution. The space is quite large, hotizontally, but > vertically > > > > limited. > > > > It will make a great "state room", but access is a challenge. > It > > > will be > > > > an even greater challenge at 80 years of age. > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > Ken Hooper wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anybody have images of the interior of a Swain 40, I'm > > > looking > > > > > especially for pictures taken from the companionway aft, of > > > quarter > > > > > berths or whatever you've put back there. There are no good > > > pictures > > > > > of > > > > > this in the Photos section of the Yahoo site. > > > > > > > > > > Trying to determine if it's feasible to build two small > > > staterooms for > > > > > > > > > > children, one per side in this area. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > --Ken > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > > > > > > British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > ------ > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > > > > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > > British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > > > > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11004|10991|2006-05-10 22:05:13|cirejay|Re: Pictures of 40'er|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Same with other places. > Life rings used for $70- that are at the boat show new for $59-. > We need to be aware of the new price of an item before buying used. > I keep a west catalog in the car. It, at least, gives me a ballpark if I come across an item when I'm out and about. eric S/V nebaras| 11005|10998|2006-05-10 23:05:36|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Sea Clear 11|On Wed, May 10, 2006 at 10:34:29PM -0000, kendall wrote: > > Hey great!, been a linux user for a while, and while not actively > seeking a linux chart program, have kept my eyes open, I'm off to > check them out now. (that's why I love these lists!) Glad I could be of help, Ken. Feel free to contact me off-list if you run into any problems or questions; I've been playing with this gadget for a long time, and could probably get a job doing tech support for them. :) Regards, * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11006|11006|2006-05-11 10:55:56|mkriley@fuse.net|steel primer|hi, don't let the word primer distract you, as it is a catch all phrase. primer on steel has to have 2 functions. 1 and most important it needs to cut the oxygen off and stop corrision and have good adhesion and toughness. 2 act as a tie coat and sanding surfacer to the topcoat. the qualities needed for top performance are mutually exclusive eg, abrasion resistance vs good sanding! I maintained a 114' steel boat made in 1957 and found that for the first function that woolsey rustloc was hands down the winner. a 1 part system that is so tough you need to put a parting film in the can to reopen it or you will destroy the can trying to open it. can be over coated with anything once set paint remover will not touch it. With 114' of rusting steel I tried everything mike| 11007|11006|2006-05-12 10:06:46|audeojude|Re: steel primer|Mike I did a search for woolsey rustloc and am not finding anything.. a petite rustloc came up (is this the same thing?) If you have any links to venders or product info on this could you share with us :) thanks scott carle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > hi, > don't let the word primer distract you, as it is a catch all phrase. primer on steel has to have 2 functions. 1 and most important it needs to cut the oxygen off and stop corrision and have good adhesion and toughness. 2 act as a tie coat and sanding surfacer to the topcoat. > the qualities needed for top performance are mutually exclusive eg, abrasion resistance vs good sanding! I maintained a 114' steel boat made in 1957 and found that for the first function that woolsey rustloc was hands down the winner. a 1 part system that is so tough you need to put a parting film in the can to reopen it or you will destroy the can trying to open it. can be over coated with anything > once set paint remover will not touch it. With 114' of rusting steel I tried everything > mike > | 11008|11008|2006-05-13 08:51:53|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: Digest Number 1543|name change it is now pettit rustlok http://www.pettitpaint.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=101 can be overcoated with out sanding with in certain time frames . I usually used awlgrip 545 epoxy primer on top of the rustlock, one boat that got a new cabin and deck did not get the primer overcoated at all but held up for 10yers and still looked ok. thanks mike > > Mike I did a search for woolsey rustloc and am not finding anything.. > a petite rustloc came up (is this the same thing?) If you have any > links to venders or product info on this could you share with us :) > thanks > scott carle > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > hi, > > don't let the word primer distract you, as it is a catch all > phrase. primer on steel has to have 2 functions. 1 and most important > it needs to cut the oxygen off and stop corrision and have good > adhesion and toughness. 2 act as a tie coat and sanding surfacer to > the topcoat. > > the qualities needed for top performance are mutually exclusive eg, > abrasion resistance vs good sanding! I maintained a 114' steel boat > made in 1957 and found that for the first function that woolsey > rustloc was hands down the winner. a 1 part system that is so tough > you need to put a parting film in the can to reopen it or you will > destroy the can trying to open it. can be over coated with anything > > once set paint remover will not touch it. With 114' of rusting steel > I tried everything > > mike > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > | 11010|11008|2006-05-14 13:22:05|audeojude|Re: Digest Number 1543|Thanks Mike I took a look at it and it looks good scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > name change it is now pettit rustlok > > http://www.pettitpaint.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=101 > > can be overcoated with out sanding with in certain time frames . I usually used awlgrip 545 > epoxy primer on top of the rustlock, one boat that got a new cabin and deck did not get the primer overcoated at all but held up for 10yers and still looked ok. > thanks > mike > > > > > > Mike I did a search for woolsey rustloc and am not finding anything.. > > a petite rustloc came up (is this the same thing?) If you have any > > links to venders or product info on this could you share with us :) > > thanks > > scott carle > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > hi, > > > don't let the word primer distract you, as it is a catch all > > phrase. primer on steel has to have 2 functions. 1 and most important > > it needs to cut the oxygen off and stop corrision and have good > > adhesion and toughness. 2 act as a tie coat and sanding surfacer to > > the topcoat. > > > the qualities needed for top performance are mutually exclusive eg, > > abrasion resistance vs good sanding! I maintained a 114' steel boat > > made in 1957 and found that for the first function that woolsey > > rustloc was hands down the winner. a 1 part system that is so tough > > you need to put a parting film in the can to reopen it or you will > > destroy the can trying to open it. can be over coated with anything > > > once set paint remover will not touch it. With 114' of rusting steel > > I tried everything > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > | 11012|10997|2006-05-15 17:54:05|richytill|Re: Devoe Primers|Hi, Yes, I painted my 36' with Devoe system. Check out the ICI Devoe website or look up Ameron (same paint). The system starts with cathecoat 302 primer; Bar-rust 231 epoxy and 361 polyurethane top coat as I recall. It is a top rated industrial system used by chemical plants pulp mills and other corrosive environments. Cathecaot 302 is a stabilized inorganic zinc primer--one of the few accepted for use below the waterline. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Has anyone had any experience with Devoe zinc-rich primers? I'll be > ordering some steel soon for a BS26 and I will be having it blasted > and primed by a local outfit. They have more experience with Devoe > products (they didn't seem real comfortable using Carboweld) so I am > inclined to use Devoe if the primer is satisfactory. > > Seems Devoe 302 is the primer to use, yes? > > Comments? > > > Cheers > > Paul > | 11013|10997|2006-05-15 18:19:01|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Devoe Primers|On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 09:53:44PM -0000, richytill wrote: > Hi, > > Yes, I painted my 36' with Devoe system. Check out the ICI Devoe > website or look up Ameron (same paint). The system starts with > cathecoat 302 primer; Bar-rust 231 epoxy and 361 polyurethane top coat > as I recall. This is almost exactly what I just a few months ago, when I replated the bottom of my 34-footer (well, had it replated; my welding skills are currently nowhere near that level) - Bar-Rust 231 plus a Devoe poly topcoat. Even though I'm not a professional painter, I have to say that the epoxy goes on smooth as butter, is not very picky about the amount of thinner you add, covers _really_ well, and kicks off rock-hard after ~5 hours of working time (average temps were ~70 degrees.) I assure you that many other paints are *much* more of a pain. The poly is also nice and hard and seems to wear well; although I've only had it on for a few months, it's been subjected to random bangs and whacks from hard objects (i.e., other people's dinghies) and has only been chipped in one spot. The Bar-Rust underneath the chipped area just shrugged it off. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11014|10997|2006-05-15 22:07:27|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Devoe Primers|Thanks guys! Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11015|10997|2006-05-15 23:29:05|kingsknight4life|Re: Devoe Primers|Way to go guys. Just when I figured out what paint system I'm going to use you guys go and throw a wrench in the mix. :) Now I have to research Devoe products too. I think I'm going stick to the Wasser brand products as they are pretty user friendly too. Long pot life, no mixing, can be applied in almost any range of temps. and humidty, plus no re-coat windows. Rowland| 11016|10832|2006-05-16 04:14:44|Gerd|Update ROVER 36|Weather is finally good and we have just started pulling the hull together - some new pictures on: http://www.justmueller.com/boats/_files/rover36/rover36.htm scroll to the bottom of the page Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 11017|11017|2006-05-16 09:40:50|jericoera|Lead anyone?|Lead anyone? This is the last shot at lead ingots before I relocate them. 5000 pounds lead ingots. $2500 and you can save yourself sweating this summer melting the stuff into ingots-already done!!!!!!! Carl McIntosh (604)485-0339| 11018|10832|2006-05-16 09:47:28|Sugar|Re: Update ROVER 36|I really enjoyed your site. Thanks! Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Weather is finally good and we have just started pulling the hull > together - some new pictures on: > > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/_files/rover36/rover36.htm > scroll to the bottom of the page > > > > Gerd > the Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > | 11019|11019|2006-05-16 11:40:09|Puck III|WoodenWidget Origami Dinghy - see the Videos !|--- In OrigamiPlyBoatDesign@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" wrote: > > WoodenWidget Origami Dinghy . > > For those interested in a cheap easy to selfbuild dinghy , > > A new Link has been posted in Links : > in the " Folding & Stowaway Boats " > > WoodenWidget Origami Dinghy > 6 and 8ft Origami Folding Tender > http://www.woodenwidget.com/ | 11020|10997|2006-05-17 00:29:58|Aaron Williams|Re: Devoe Primers|Union oil company chose Devoe primers and paints when we rebuilt the Steelhead platform after it burned up from a gas blowout. It seamed like good stuff almost as tuff to weld over as silicone. kingsknight4life wrote: Way to go guys. Just when I figured out what paint system I'm going to use you guys go and throw a wrench in the mix. :) Now I have to research Devoe products too. I think I'm going stick to the Wasser brand products as they are pretty user friendly too. Long pot life, no mixing, can be applied in almost any range of temps. and humidty, plus no re-coat windows. Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11021|10997|2006-05-17 10:38:04|mkriley@fuse.net|Devoe Primers|use you guys go and throw a wrench in the mix. :) Now I have to > research Devoe products too. I think I'm going stick to the Wasser > brand products as they are pretty user friendly too. Long pot life, no > mixing, can be applied in almost any range of temps. and humidty, plus > no re-coat windows. > Rowland hey roland, I think you don't understand the overcoating window. That means a period of time that the rustloc can be overcoated WITHOUT sanding, if the time is exceeded it can be overcoated with sanding like ALL the other products . DEVOE is good stuff but it is the same line as other industrial paints like rustolium and awlgrip etc any brand makes similar products and they perform about the same so you can chose on price and service . I would get a small quanity of what ever paints I was considering and put it on several samples 1 prepped steel 2 dirty steel 3 aluminium foil 4 plastic jug 5 2x4 wood after cure beat wth hammer and try to peal off the substraight and scrape. a clear winner will emerge mike| 11022|11022|2006-05-17 16:39:36|richytill|Shakedown|First multi day trip under sail for "My Island": Picked a good stormy week to pull out of gibsons Landing BC and catch a S Easter up to Desolation sound. All systems tested out well for the BS36. Steady 8-9 knts up Malaspina Straight with 20-35 winds. Boat very stable and responsive. Anchored behind Savary Island; Teakerne Arm; Gorge Harbour with plenty of opportunity to manuvre under motor and sail. Teakerne Arm deserted--had the waterfall and the lake to ourselves. Anchored at Mitlenatch Island bird sanctuary and Boho Bay and caught a brisk westerly back to Gibsons. By the time we wheighed anchor at Jedediah the rain had abated and the winds Comox radio promised arrived. We were tied up in Gibsons within 5 hours and the GPS logged a maximum speed of 9.8 knots. More work to do on the boat but the cruise reinforces the advantage of testing out before fitting out the whole boat. Did some wiring at the Wharf at Van Anda. Mounted a compass close abroad Mittlenatch Island. Anchor winch system slightly modified and carrying more chain after sleepless night over rocky holding ground at Boho. Looking for a Delta anchor now. Hull, engine, propulsion, deck, rig steering all met and exceeded expectations. Logged 201 nautical miles over 7 days with winds from 0-- 40 and plenty of rain. rt| 11023|10997|2006-05-17 16:47:13|kingsknight4life|Re: Devoe Primers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > ... I would get a small quanity of what ever paints I was considering and put it on several samples > 1 prepped steel > 2 dirty steel > 3 aluminium foil > 4 plastic jug > 5 2x4 wood > after cure > beat wth hammer and try to peal off the substraight > and scrape. > > a clear winner will emerge > mike > Mike it is VERY hard to get small samples of industrial paints and primers. If I did this and used all the coatings from primer to topcoat my test could cost a fortune. What is the clear winner? BTW Wasser has no topcoat window, in that you DON'T have to sand it to recoat at any time. As far as I know, anyway. Painting time is fast approaching, does anyone out there have any painintg advice? Rowland| 11024|10997|2006-05-17 17:47:19|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Devoe Primers|On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 08:42:56PM -0000, kingsknight4life wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > ... I would get a small quanity of what ever paints I was > considering and put it on several samples > > 1 prepped steel > > 2 dirty steel > > 3 aluminium foil > > 4 plastic jug > > 5 2x4 wood > > after cure > > beat wth hammer and try to peal off the substraight > > and scrape. > > > > a clear winner will emerge > > mike > > > > Mike it is VERY hard to get small samples of industrial paints and > primers. If I did this and used all the coatings from primer to > topcoat my test could cost a fortune. What is the clear winner? BTW > Wasser has no topcoat window, in that you DON'T have to sand it to > recoat at any time. As far as I know, anyway. Painting time is fast > approaching, does anyone out there have any painintg advice? Well, I wouldn't trust that "no topcoat window" idea - over time, a boat will gather oils just from the trace amounts of smoke, etc. present in the air, and not getting that off completely is a guarantee of topcoat failure later. No matter what the manufacturer promises (and their statements may even be accurate, as long as you keep your entire boat inside a laboratory with filtered air, etc.), I'd say that a week between the bottom and the top coats without sanding is way too long. As to specific paint recommendations, I've tried a number of things over the years (including, BTW, Rustoleum's industrial-grade stuff - which wasn't worth a tinker's damn.) The only thing that has held up for me over time has been good-quality epoxy (e.g., Devoe) applied the same day over grit-blasted steel; the topcoat, at that point, can be any decent quality polyurethane. For small patches, where blasting is not practical, POR ("Paint Over Rust") has been excellent although somewhat expensive. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11025|11025|2006-05-17 22:16:34|tom|BS 26 steel cost|Hello All A while back people asked what the steel cost was on the 26 well I just ordered the last of the steel I need for the keel skeg and rudder and the total for all the steel is $2350.00 US That's not including any stainless or aluminum. Its been averaging about 50 cents a pound, Not to bad for today's prices but it wasn't that long ago I was paying 28 to 30 cents a pound. As far as actual time building I lost track and welding supplies not sure either being a welder I just use what's on the truck. I will say this much its a lot cheaper using an electric welder vs. portable, my diesel welder burns 1/2 gallon an hour and it adds up quick when you're paying $3.40 a gallon. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11026|10997|2006-05-17 22:28:56|Mario Jorge Andrade|Anyone From Brazil?|Hello. Is there anyone from Brazil, either Building an Origami metal boat, or just lurking? Alguém do Brasil por aí, construindo um Barco Origami de Metal ou apenas espiando? []´s Mario Jorge Andrade 23º 0' 13,302" S 43º 22' 58,41" W 35,6 m Rio - Brasil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11027|11022|2006-05-18 06:30:42|T & D Cain|Re: Shakedown|Nice one rt, thanks for the update. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of richytill Sent: Thursday, 18 May 2006 6:09 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Shakedown First multi day trip under sail for "My Island": Picked a good stormy week to pull out of gibsons Landing BC and catch a S Easter up to Desolation sound. All systems tested out well for the BS36. Steady 8-9 knts up Malaspina Straight with 20-35 winds. Boat very stable and responsive. Anchored behind Savary Island; Teakerne Arm; Gorge Harbour with plenty of opportunity to manuvre under motor and sail. Teakerne Arm deserted--had the waterfall and the lake to ourselves. Anchored at Mitlenatch Island bird sanctuary and Boho Bay and caught a brisk westerly back to Gibsons. By the time we wheighed anchor at Jedediah the rain had abated and the winds Comox radio promised arrived. We were tied up in Gibsons within 5 hours and the GPS logged a maximum speed of 9.8 knots. More work to do on the boat but the cruise reinforces the advantage of testing out before fitting out the whole boat. Did some wiring at the Wharf at Van Anda. Mounted a compass close abroad Mittlenatch Island. Anchor winch system slightly modified and carrying more chain after sleepless night over rocky holding ground at Boho. Looking for a Delta anchor now. Hull, engine, propulsion, deck, rig steering all met and exceeded expectations. Logged 201 nautical miles over 7 days with winds from 0-- 40 and plenty of rain. rt To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.0/342 - Release Date: 17/05/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.0/342 - Release Date: 17/05/2006| 11028|11028|2006-05-18 18:55:05|mickeyolaf|The Pilothouse is King in Alaska|I just returned from a week in Alaska. Went to Juneau, Ketchikan, and Skagway. My bride carted her VISA into the Tourist Traps and I walked all of the docks and marinas instead. Lots of metal sailboats many with Pilothouses. None of the marinas have gates. Maybe theft hasn't reached Alaska's small towns yet. Some of the old buildings that were houses for working women are still in place. They had trap doors in the floors so the married men and the rumrunners could enter via rowing under the building on a high tide without being seen. I guess if they had had viagra in those days a guy could take a 40 of scotch, row under the building, crawl up thru the trap door and darn you'd have to stay til the next high water. There is an aluminum sailboat builder in Ketchikan building large 50+ Pilothouses. He also had a triple chine steel on the ways. Once away from the tourist traps Ketchican is a real working marine community and would be well worth a visit for a BS heading north. The town is alot like Port Townsend if you took all of the tourists away. Glacier Bay has to be the most scenic spot on earth bar none. Absolutely inspiring. 360 degree snowcapped mountains with glaciers calving into the sea. Sea lions lying on the beach in the sun. Lots of ice in the water. An incredible place that has renewed my drive to finish up my BS. With the US dollar dropping in value and the Canadian peso nearing par now would be the time for visiting Alaska. Two bottles of Bacardi White was $19.95. Two cartons of Winstons $36.95. Diesel was $3.29 a gallon. I didn't get prices on renting a row boat on high tide or admission thru the trap door.| 11030|9840|2006-05-18 22:57:03|tom|BS 26|I built the rudder this afternoon, went pretty easy did the tack both sides together and then hammer the 1-1/2" pipe in trick . Smashed the end of the pipe in a press to form a wedge and after it went in about 10" it started creasing the sides a little and I did not realize it was doing it till it was all the way in. anyway I tried to hammer them out with a rubber mallet and that was useless so I think I will leave it that way, Its not that bad and it did stay straight . posted a picture in origamiboats2 . Tom PS still curious about admi I noticed her photo album is gone [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11031|11028|2006-05-19 01:22:02|David A. Frantz|Re: The Pilothouse is King in Alaska|Oh come on now, why does a man travel the seas, but to see another. Dave > I didn't get prices on renting a row boat on high tide or > admission thru the trap door. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > British columbia canada > > Vancouver island > > Yacht > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > * Visit your group "origamiboats > " on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | 11032|11032|2006-05-19 01:58:54|denisnh|Smaller is Better - Steen Paradox Type Boat?|Hi. I've been working with steel since I was a kid helping my uncle on his farm equipment. I also worked as a machinist and prototype builder for a while so welding, forming and machining custom parts is not a problem. (I do have a mig welder, but need to do a little practice on it as a refresher) I would like to build a small steel boat. My first thought was that this couldn't be done, as all the experts on the subject say 25' is the minimum for a steel boat. However, after seeing the pictures in origamiboats2, I see that small steel boats CAN be effectively built. Plus the Atkins father and son team designed a number of steel boats as small as 16'. I am not interested in aluminim as a building material. What I'm looking for is a coastal cruiser, fully decked over (an open steel boat gives me the willies!) with a small cabin/pilothouse. It would be something very similar to Paradox, except about 20% bigger, so about 18' long, 5' beam and bottom to top of cabin about 4'. Can it be done and do any sort of plans exist for a similar boat to this? Thanks, Denis| 11033|11032|2006-05-19 02:07:45|denisnh|Sorry about the typo, I meant STEEL Paradox Type Boat?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denisnh" wrote: > > Hi. I've been working with steel since I was a kid helping my uncle on > his farm equipment. I also worked as a machinist and prototype builder > for a while so welding, forming and machining custom parts is not a > problem. (I do have a mig welder, but need to do a little practice on > it as a refresher) > > I would like to build a small steel boat. My first thought was that > this couldn't be done, as all the experts on the subject say 25' is the > minimum for a steel boat. However, after seeing the pictures in > origamiboats2, I see that small steel boats CAN be effectively built. > Plus the Atkins father and son team designed a number of steel boats as > small as 16'. I am not interested in aluminim as a building material. > > What I'm looking for is a coastal cruiser, fully decked over (an open > steel boat gives me the willies!) with a small cabin/pilothouse. It > would be something very similar to Paradox, except about 20% bigger, so > about 18' long, 5' beam and bottom to top of cabin about 4'. > > Can it be done and do any sort of plans exist for a similar boat to > this? > > Thanks, > Denis > | 11034|11032|2006-05-19 12:34:05|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Smaller is Better - Steen Paradox Type Boat?|Hi Denis, Your reference to Atkins suggests you have come across Liza Jane (19 ft LOA, 7 ft beam - you can get plans from Atkin Boat Plans), a steel design that approximately meets your needs. Its a nice looking little boat, but seems more difficult to build than it needs to be, and a few modification are probably in order. I looked around to see if any have been built in the 60 years since it was designed...I didn't find any, but I'm sure a few have been put together somewhere. For dedicated coastal cruising a twin keeler would be nice, depending on your location, of course. Cheers Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11035|10997|2006-05-19 15:59:49|mark.nash|Re: Anyone From Brazil?|Mario, I'm lurking and seriously thinking of building the 31 foot cruiser in aluminum. I live in Guararema, São Paulo. In fact, I'd like to find a few others who want to build to negotiate bulk prices. Where are you? Mark De:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Para:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cópia: Data:Wed, 17 May 2006 23:22:02 -0300 Assunto:[origamiboats] Anyone From Brazil? Hello. Is there anyone from Brazil, either Building an Origami metal boat, or just lurking? Alguém do Brasil por aí, construindo um Barco Origami de Metal ou apenas espiando? []´s Mario Jorge Andrade 23º 0' 13,302" S 43º 22' 58,41" W 35,6 m Rio - Brasil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11036|10997|2006-05-19 16:40:30|Douglas Cassa|Re: Anyone From Brazil? I am|Mario, Sou de Vitoria-ES, nao estou construindo nada, mas acho este método de origami sensacional, para mim que irei iniciar na construção estou procurando algo feito com compensado e que nao desse muito trabalho, algo pequeno. Será que existe? douglascass@ Vitória-ES-BRASIL "mark.nash" escreveu: Mario, I'm lurking and seriously thinking of building the 31 foot cruiser in aluminum. I live in Guararema, São Paulo. In fact, I'd like to find a few others who want to build to negotiate bulk prices. Where are you? Mark De:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Para:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cópia: Data:Wed, 17 May 2006 23:22:02 -0300 Assunto:[origamiboats] Anyone From Brazil? Hello. Is there anyone from Brazil, either Building an Origami metal boat, or just lurking? Alguém do Brasil por aí, construindo um Barco Origami de Metal ou apenas espiando? []´s Mario Jorge Andrade 23º 0' 13,302" S 43º 22' 58,41" W 35,6 m Rio - Brasil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu celular. Registre seu aparelho agora! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11037|10997|2006-05-19 18:20:10|mark.nash|Re: Anyone From Brazil? I am|Douglas, tente no site de Roberto Barros, o "Cabinho". Ele tem vários projetos, inclusive um em compensado de 28 pés que faz muito sucesso (o Multichine 28). Faz um google com as palavras "Roberto Barros yacht design" e aparece em primeiro lugar na lista. Bons ventos De:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Para:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cópia: Data:Fri, 19 May 2006 20:40:18 +0000 (GMT) Assunto:Re:[origamiboats] Anyone From Brazil? I am Mario, Sou de Vitoria-ES, nao estou construindo nada, mas acho este método de origami sensacional, para mim que irei iniciar na construção estou procurando algo feito com compensado e que nao desse muito trabalho, algo pequeno. Será que existe? douglascass@ Vitória-ES-BRASIL "mark.nash" escreveu: Mario, I'm lurking and seriously thinking of building the 31 foot cruiser in aluminum. I live in Guararema, São Paulo. In fact, I'd like to find a few others who want to build to negotiate bulk prices. Where are you? Mark De:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Para:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Cópia: Data:Wed, 17 May 2006 23:22:02 -0300 Assunto:[origamiboats] Anyone From Brazil? Hello. Is there anyone from Brazil, either Building an Origami metal boat, or just lurking? Alguém do Brasil por aí, construindo um Barco Origami de Metal ou apenas espiando? []´s Mario Jorge Andrade 23º 0' 13,302" S 43º 22' 58,41" W 35,6 m Rio - Brasil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu celular. Registre seu aparelho agora! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11038|7433|2006-05-19 21:41:33|khooper_fboats|Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|The searchable archive has been updated to current as of 5/15/06 and now contains 11,010 messages. This page features an intelligent search engine and there are no advertisements. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Please bookmark this site. A link has been placed in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web site if you should forget the link. The archive is updated every two weeks. This message is posted approximately every six weeks. Regards, --Ken Hooper| 11039|11039|2006-05-19 21:43:39|khooper_fboats|Babelfish Translations|Some folks who do not want to miss any valuable information being posted in Portugese may not know about Babelfish, which provides automatic translations that are crude but will usually get you where you want to go: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Regards, --Ken| 11040|11040|2006-05-19 22:07:15|khooper_fboats|Diesels FS Soon|I'm going next weekend to look at a stockpile of 4-cyl diesels that somebody is looking to get rid of. All the engines were pulled from wrecked reefer trailers. I think they were all Thermo-King trailers which would make the engines Isuzu, Mercedes and possibly Yanmar. I was told there are "seven or eight or something". I already bought one Isuzu C201 from the guy and I understand there are at least two more C201s although they might not be runners. There is at least one C240 and I think there are several Mercedes industrial engines. The guy doesn't really know what all he has and isn't that interested in learning AFAICT. =^) He just wants to sell them. I dunno how many of these I'm going to get, I'd like to offer people on the origamiboats list first crack at them if I get the lot. They will be cheap, probably under $500 and possibly much less depending on what I can get them for. It would help me if I knew how much interest there is in these. Remember these are not marine engines, at the very least you'd need to come up with a throttle. They probably have starters and some sort of low-capacity alternator. I don't know what you'd do about an exhaust manifold. They were originally pulled and kept as running spares by a trucking company but I have no way of knowing if they run at this point. I'm in Memphis, Tennessee by the way. As a point of interest, last week I had a 475-pound Perkins shipped here from Richmond, which is ~825 miles, for $131 on a truck line. West coast is a lot further than that of course but just to give you some idea. Contact me off-list. --Ken| 11041|11041|2006-05-20 09:56:25|prairiemaidca|Paints and Primers|Hi All: One thing that was pointed out to me about coatings for my project is the method that the various types of coatings cure. Make sure that if you are using a moisture reliant system that you will have the correct level in the climate you are painting in. Out here on the Canadian prairie air can be extreamly dry for extended periods and not conducive to a good cure when using a coating that needs some humidity to do it's thing. The opposite would be true for those in a damp area. Something to keep in mind. Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 11042|10771|2006-05-21 09:22:25|tom|BS 26 progress|Mornin All I built the Skeg yesterday and it went pretty easy, clamped the two sides together and ground them to a exact match then tacked the trailing edge together, pulled it open by hand, put the spacers in and with 3 clamps pulled it to the leading edge pipe. It went so good I figured I would do the same on the keel and that worked out a lot easyer than I thought it would, anyway I had both tacked together in about 5 hours + or - a little took a few coffee breaks. I posted a few more pictures in origamiboats2. Have a good day Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11043|5386|2006-05-21 10:24:18|rainmaker19542002|Re: Bottom paint|Michael, I have a 27 year old steel trawler that I'm going to blast down to bare, ospho to convert the bits the blasting misses. I've done a LOT of research on the aluminum filled, moisture-cured urethanes (POR, Rust Bullet, Aluthane). The track records on these materials is excellent, lasting 10-20 years in extreme salt environments. They adhere incredibly, even to bare metal, seem to stop rust and last forever. NO ONE seems to recommend these for underwater use. It seems to me to be the perfect underwater pimer. You're the first I've come across that has used it underwater. What has been your experience with it so far? Any rust or delam from the keel? I'm leaning towards Rust Bullet, as it is UV resistant. What do you think the advantages/ disadvantages would be for these materials in my application (Steel Hull, Salt Water)? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > With regards to metal coatings and fiberglass hulls, the latter for Colin Heavy Oil. > > POR15 is a good metal covering for iron or steel, it is waterproof and it drys on wet days to a very smooth finish. I used it on my cast iron keel. Because it dried in cold damp weather and was very smooth when dry, I called POR and asked them if it would be suitable as a barrier coat on a fiberglass hull. They said it would work and that was about four years ago. I applied the antifouling paint over it and that paint has stuck very well. When the antifouling gets thin the POR shows through and it is still very slick. > > This year I decided to add filler to the keel to fix some casting imperfections, I used my Makita grinder and heavy paper. The stuff is hard and tenacious. I filled the keel and again painted it with POR before applying anti fouling paint. > > I think it is a crime to put a fiberglass hull in the water with no barrier coat protection. The gelcoat will absorb some water which I do not think is a good thing even if the boat does not develop blisters. I see too many boats out of the water for too long while repairs are being made. It could have been prevented by spending a little on some paint > > I found them quite user friendly. I do not sell the stuff or am in any way connected with POR, but I am happy with the results, especially the extra benefit of using it on a fiberglass hull. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kendall > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:41 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bottom paint > > > > > I'm thinking either way would work out, my boat is a pretty recent > aquisition, so I haven't had a lot of experience with bottom paint, > all the others I've had were trailerables, so didn't get a chance to > collect any greenery. > > Not realy familiar with steel hulls other than what I've picked up > here so can't offer any ideas on the copper/steel problem, The ideas > sound, weren't some of the old clippers copper plated? > > ken. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11044|5386|2006-05-21 10:25:50|rainmaker19542002|Re: Bottom paint|Michael, I have a 27 year old steel trawler that I'm going to blast down to bare, ospho to convert the bits the blasting misses. I've done a LOT of research on the aluminum filled, moisture-cured urethanes (POR, Rust Bullet, Aluthane). The track records on these materials is excellent, lasting 10-20 years in extreme salt environments. They adhere incredibly, even to bare metal, seem to stop rust and last forever. NO ONE seems to recommend these for underwater use. It seems to me to be the perfect underwater pimer. You're the first I've come across that has used it underwater. What has been your experience with it so far? Any rust or delam from the keel? I'm leaning towards Rust Bullet, as it is UV resistant. What do you think the advantages/ disadvantages would be for these materials in my application (Steel Hull, Salt Water)? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > With regards to metal coatings and fiberglass hulls, the latter for Colin Heavy Oil. > > POR15 is a good metal covering for iron or steel, it is waterproof and it drys on wet days to a very smooth finish. I used it on my cast iron keel. Because it dried in cold damp weather and was very smooth when dry, I called POR and asked them if it would be suitable as a barrier coat on a fiberglass hull. They said it would work and that was about four years ago. I applied the antifouling paint over it and that paint has stuck very well. When the antifouling gets thin the POR shows through and it is still very slick. > > This year I decided to add filler to the keel to fix some casting imperfections, I used my Makita grinder and heavy paper. The stuff is hard and tenacious. I filled the keel and again painted it with POR before applying anti fouling paint. > > I think it is a crime to put a fiberglass hull in the water with no barrier coat protection. The gelcoat will absorb some water which I do not think is a good thing even if the boat does not develop blisters. I see too many boats out of the water for too long while repairs are being made. It could have been prevented by spending a little on some paint > > I found them quite user friendly. I do not sell the stuff or am in any way connected with POR, but I am happy with the results, especially the extra benefit of using it on a fiberglass hull. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kendall > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:41 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bottom paint > > > > > I'm thinking either way would work out, my boat is a pretty recent > aquisition, so I haven't had a lot of experience with bottom paint, > all the others I've had were trailerables, so didn't get a chance to > collect any greenery. > > Not realy familiar with steel hulls other than what I've picked up > here so can't offer any ideas on the copper/steel problem, The ideas > sound, weren't some of the old clippers copper plated? > > ken. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11045|7433|2006-05-22 17:22:27|Mario Jorge Andrade|RES: [origamiboats] Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|Very good. But for the downloadable version, after extraction, there´s a file with no extension, what kind of file it is? TIA []´s Mario Jorge Andrade 23º 0' 13,302" S 43º 22' 58,41" W 35,6 m Rio - Brasil _____ De: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de khooper_fboats Enviada em: sexta-feira, 19 de maio de 2006 22:41 Para: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Assunto: [origamiboats] Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated The searchable archive has been updated to current as of 5/15/06 and now contains 11,010 messages. This page features an intelligent search engine and there are no advertisements. http://www.crazyface.net/origamiboats/index.html Please bookmark this site. A link has been placed in the Links section of the Origamiboats Yahoo Groups web site if you should forget the link. The archive is updated every two weeks. This message is posted approximately every six weeks. Regards, --Ken Hooper To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11046|7433|2006-05-22 19:26:04|khooper_fboats|Re: RES: [origamiboats] Origamiboats Searchable Archive Updated|> But for the downloadable version, after extraction, > there´s a file with no > extension, what kind of file it is? It's a plain vanilla ASCII text file. If you run Windoze you might need to add a .txt extension to its name. If you put an .mbox extension on it you _might_ be able to import it into one of the more intelligent email progs and have it separate the messages automatically. --Ken| 11047|10832|2006-05-23 14:03:18|Helmut Schlager|Re: Update ROVER 36|hallo gerd nice to see that you are still on air, watching the yago page i was afraid you are out of boatbuildingbusiness. `;-) how much work is it to scale down the rover 36 to half of her length? because this would be the size of boat that i am able (financially)to build: if i have a look at : http://cruisenews.net/images/Puck/ i see a boat with room enough for me and my wife. what price is actual for steelplates in hungaria? if you scale down the boat to the half lenght, but still use 4mm plates, can i build without stringers and frames? how to calculate this? helmut Helmut Schlager Plankenstein 10 A-3242 Texingtal Austria| 11048|11048|2006-05-23 15:55:01|vagabundouno|Aluminum and cost|Does anyone have any real pragmatic figures on the materials cost and labor for one person to build a 28' to 32' boat built in aluminum with this construction? I will have the time and money, I hope, by next spring to start. I wish to build a single-hander, approx. 30' - 32' for serious bluewater cruising. Thanks for your information. Rob| 11049|10832|2006-05-23 16:16:18|Gerd|Small Steel?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > how much work is it to scale down the rover 36 to half of her length? Hi Helmut - Yes, the PUCK is a great little boat, like it a lot. Check out with Old_Ben, I think he can help you with the plans - JP Brouns does not sell them anymore I believe. Small is beautiful but THAT small really does not make much sense in steel, although I have seen a steel 6.50 m that was very nice, but with ballasted keel, not inside ballast. I would rather go for aluminium then if you want metal/origami, or a plywood stitch and glue. If you want me to have a look at that, send me a message and we can discuss it in German. I was looking for a pretext to get started on a small pockt-cruiser design, there is also a design contest that such a project could fit in, so yes, if you want I might just find the time in between other things my wife wants me to do ;-) As for YAGO, I am welding right now, not very spectacular and nothing much to show, but I am actually working quite a lot, on my own boat, on my friend Karoly's ROVER, rebuilt the entire website, have a project for a modern 30' sail on the drawing board and so on.. I sometimes wonder why my boss still pays me ;-) just kidding... Plating thickness versus stringers & frames: for a given strength and stiffness, you will always be heavier the more skin and the less structure you have. The skin thickness has to be workable though (my deck is 2 mm and welding that is a real pain in the neck) and you also have a higher risk of puncture. The 6.50 I mentioned was in 3 mm, on stringers and floating frames, that was very strong, but not light for the size. Budget: You should maybe review your options, you can also build a 26/27 footer VERY cheap, which is really a totally diffent size already, and going below that does not save you THAT much money, you still need your equipment, your electric tools, building place and later your matrasses, your sink and cooker, toilet... all that is really the same budget for any smallish boat. Also this range is probably richer in second hand material than smaller sizes, in harbours, e-bay etc. An 8 meter boat can almost be financed from the pocket money as you go along and I think if you really do your homework for the total budget you will find there does not need to be that much of a difference. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 11050|11048|2006-05-23 16:37:51|Gerd|Re: Aluminum and cost|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" wrote: > > Does anyone have any real pragmatic figures on the materials cost and > labor for one person to build a 28' to 32' boat built in aluminum Hi Rob - that's still a bit to global a question to give a proper answer. First of all there is already a world between 28 and 32 feet, absolutely not comparable. If you want to look at comparable boats, use the length of the waterline and the displacement, to get any sort of valid relationship. Then it depends what type of boat you are looking at, what rig, what cruising program, what construction method. Say a 28 foot junk with very ZEN interior fitting on one side and a 32 foot marconi sloop with all new fully battened main and harken slides all the usual deckgear and fitted out to commercial standards on teh other could easily be a 1: 10 difference in the budget! ;-) You can ask the designer, and he may give you an estimate, but depeding ont eh builder he may still launch the same design for 50 % less or 100 % more... The only way to sort that out is to take a material spec list for a similar boat - often supplied with the study plans - and then make a list of everything that's not yet listed there and dig into the catalogues and get on the phon and put a price next to each item. After that - if you still feel like wanting a boat ;-) - you go through your list and decide what is it that you can do without, and what you might be able to get second hand or improvise or build yourself. Brents book is a good starting point on how to do simple, safe and cheap. Don't trust anybody's budget, you will need to do your own, because most of these decisions are so personal and so much depends on the way you live your life and make your deals every day.. if you already live cheaper than anybody you know you will manage to build cheap, if you are the type of person who gets bad deals everywhere, expect to pay too much for your boat as well ;-) Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 11051|11051|2006-05-23 17:37:24|Helmut Schlager|Brent's Origami Dinghy|as postet in files: is it possible to get the plan for the dinghy ? for first time origami? Helmut Schlager Plankenstein 10 A-3242 Texingtal Austria| 11052|11048|2006-05-23 17:45:08|vagabundouno|Re: Aluminum and cost|Thanks, Gerd. I was expecting that answer, since I was not clear with my question. I am looking for the cost difference between using the origami method for steel vs aluminum. I have tons of steel experience and some aluminum. So a comment like, "4:1 more expensive to use aluminum" was the type of answer I was expecting. Any thoughts on the origami method for aluminum construction? Any tips or pitfalls? Thanks, Rob --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" > wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any real pragmatic figures on the materials cost and > > labor for one person to build a 28' to 32' boat built in aluminum > > Hi Rob - that's still a bit to global a question to give a proper > answer. > First of all there is already a world between 28 and 32 feet, > absolutely not comparable. If you want to look at comparable boats, > use the length of the waterline and the displacement, to get any sort > of valid relationship. > Then it depends what type of boat you are looking at, what rig, what > cruising program, what construction method. > Say a 28 foot junk with very ZEN interior fitting on one side and a 32 > foot marconi sloop with all new fully battened main and harken slides > all the usual deckgear and fitted out to commercial standards on teh > other could easily be a 1: 10 difference in the budget! ;-) > > You can ask the designer, and he may give you an estimate, but > depeding ont eh builder he may still launch the same design for 50 % > less or 100 % more... > > The only way to sort that out is to take a material spec list for a > similar boat - often supplied with the study plans - and then make a > list of everything that's not yet listed there and dig into the > catalogues and get on the phon and put a price next to each item. > > After that - if you still feel like wanting a boat ;-) - you go > through your list and decide what is it that you can do without, and > what you might be able to get second hand or improvise or build > yourself. Brents book is a good starting point on how to do simple, > safe and cheap. > > Don't trust anybody's budget, you will need to do your own, because > most of these decisions are so personal and so much depends on the way > you live your life and make your deals every day.. if you already live > cheaper than anybody you know you will manage to build cheap, if you > are the type of person who gets bad deals everywhere, expect to pay > too much for your boat as well ;-) > > > Gerd > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > | 11053|11051|2006-05-23 17:47:14|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Origami Dinghy|Just copy the one in the book,make a model in cardboard, then modify it to your own needs. I'd make the transom and bottom wider if I were doing it agin. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager wrote: > > as postet in files: > is it possible to get the plan for the dinghy ? > for first time origami? > > Helmut Schlager > Plankenstein 10 > A-3242 Texingtal > Austria > | 11054|11051|2006-05-23 18:34:40|Helmut Schlager|Re: Brent's Origami Dinghy|jeah, i orderd your book just 2 months away in a canadian bookshop (possible paying with visa) but still waiting for the postman. a more detailed descripton of the book content would be helpfull. regerds helmut schlager austria > Just copy the one in the book,make a model in cardboard, then modify it > to your own needs. I'd make the transom and bottom wider if I were > doing it agin. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager > wrote: > > > > as postet in files: > > is it possible to get the plan for the dinghy ? > > for first time origami? > > > > Helmut Schlager > > Plankenstein 10 > > A-3242 Texingtal > > Austria > > > | 11055|11048|2006-05-23 18:36:14|Gerd|Re: Aluminum and cost|OK, Rob, it is getting clearer - and then again it isn't ;-) Do a search of the forum for aluminium and you will fnd VERY long and VERY heated discussions about just that, plus about advantages and problems. A lot of the pro-alloy posting came from Greg Elliot (www.origamimagic.com) his point is that an alloy hull would actuall be cheaper than steel for a number of reasons: - if it's lighter then everything on your boat is lighter, less lead, lighter rig ergo less cost and so on - sandblasting and good quality paint can get very expensive (but painting alloy, although not really neede, is not cheap either) - Greg also made extensive calculations where he included the resale value of the boat and - as he saw it - the higher value of an alloy boat on the market As a very rough guide, if you would estimate the cost for your hull & deck as one third, inside and equipment another and the rig, sails and fittings as the third, then a difference of let's say even 50 %, if it's that much, for the shell alone can be reduced by lighter rig material and less ballast etc to just a few percent overall cost. My very personal opinion is that on the total final budget there is Ürobably not enough of a difference to base you choice on PRICE, Rather you should choose the material for your cruising program and the type of boat you dream of (go fast and light with alloy or bump into lots of coral reefs with steel) as well as your building conditions (shelter, tools, experience...) and finally your preferences for the material. One big advantage of steel is that it's good for the pay-as-you- build budget, because you can get startet for a handful of dollars, with a grinder and an old buzzbox, in a field. 2000 $ of steel can keep you busy for a long time ;-) For alloy you need a lot more cash up front. Gerd But at the end, depending how you build, you will end up with much the same overall expense. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" wrote: > > Thanks, Gerd. > > I was expecting that answer, since I was not clear with my question. I > am looking for the cost difference between using the origami method > for steel vs aluminum. I have tons of steel experience and some > aluminum. So a comment like, "4:1 more expensive to use aluminum" was > the type of answer I was expecting. Any thoughts on the origami method > for aluminum construction? Any tips or pitfalls? Thanks, > > Rob > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" > > wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have any real pragmatic figures on the materials cost and > > > labor for one person to build a 28' to 32' boat built in aluminum > > > > Hi Rob - that's still a bit to global a question to give a proper > > answer. > > First of all there is already a world between 28 and 32 feet, > > absolutely not comparable. If you want to look at comparable boats, > > use the length of the waterline and the displacement, to get any sort > > of valid relationship. > > Then it depends what type of boat you are looking at, what rig, what > > cruising program, what construction method. > > Say a 28 foot junk with very ZEN interior fitting on one side and a 32 > > foot marconi sloop with all new fully battened main and harken slides > > all the usual deckgear and fitted out to commercial standards on teh > > other could easily be a 1: 10 difference in the budget! ;-) > > > > You can ask the designer, and he may give you an estimate, but > > depeding ont eh builder he may still launch the same design for 50 % > > less or 100 % more... > > > > The only way to sort that out is to take a material spec list for a > > similar boat - often supplied with the study plans - and then make a > > list of everything that's not yet listed there and dig into the > > catalogues and get on the phon and put a price next to each item. > > > > After that - if you still feel like wanting a boat ;-) - you go > > through your list and decide what is it that you can do without, and > > what you might be able to get second hand or improvise or build > > yourself. Brents book is a good starting point on how to do simple, > > safe and cheap. > > > > Don't trust anybody's budget, you will need to do your own, because > > most of these decisions are so personal and so much depends on the way > > you live your life and make your deals every day.. if you already live > > cheaper than anybody you know you will manage to build cheap, if you > > are the type of person who gets bad deals everywhere, expect to pay > > too much for your boat as well ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > | 11056|5386|2006-05-23 22:40:58|Michael Casling|Re: Bottom paint|When I phoned the folks at POR they were quite user friendly. I asked about using the paint underwater and they said it would be fine. Later I asked about using it on the fibreglass hull as a barrier coat, and they said it would be fine. I like the fact that it dries in damp and chilly conditions, and the finish is very smooth. The antifouling paint has adhered very well. With my small boat I was going to use Pettit Rustlok but it was not readily available, and there was not a lot of info available. On the 28 foot boat I filled first and painted second. On the 22 foot boat I painted first and filled second. Can not tell yet which will work best. On the bigger boat I have a few water blisters on the keel that I think are from the filler that may not have been dry enough. The filler seems to attract moisture on humid days. The paint on the hull has been on for about four years with one overcoat of antifouling paint. This has been quite successful. I redid the keel as I wanted to add more filler for a better shape. The two year old POR was working fine at that point. I did not worry about UV resistance because of the antifouling cover paint. POR is available at Lordco. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: rainmaker19542002 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 7:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Bottom paint Michael, I have a 27 year old steel trawler that I'm going to blast down to bare, ospho to convert the bits the blasting misses. I've done a LOT of research on the aluminum filled, moisture-cured urethanes (POR, Rust Bullet, Aluthane). The track records on these materials is excellent, lasting 10-20 years in extreme salt environments. They adhere incredibly, even to bare metal, seem to stop rust and last forever. NO ONE seems to recommend these for underwater use. It seems to me to be the perfect underwater pimer. You're the first I've come across that has used it underwater. What has been your experience with it so far? Any rust or delam from the keel? I'm leaning towards Rust Bullet, as it is UV resistant. What do you think the advantages/ disadvantages would be for these materials in my application (Steel Hull, Salt Water)? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11059|11048|2006-05-24 17:01:53|mickeyolaf|Re: Aluminum and cost|I have an aluminum SW 36 under construction. I have never added up all of the bills because if I did I would probably want to shoot myself. If you buy all new everything and outfit her really well you will burn thru $150,000 really fast. If u build making all of the parts yourself, install a used engine, tube mast, used sails, no winches, minimal electrics, tiller stearing, no opening ports, no plastic tanks, Par head, etc, your costs will be substantially less. I am trying to build in the middle zone of expensive. Not production boat excessive but not minimalist either. Go into your project with your eyes and wallet wide open. Aluminum is very expensive. Then add the cost of the lead ballast. Then the engine, tanks, foam, paint, interior, windows, hatches, stove, fridge/freezer, rig, sails, mast, rubber boat, anchor, chain, mate, and the list goes on and on. I could have bought a Fisher 37 Pilothouse, albet a 30 year old one for what I have spent so far on my SW36. But then all of my equipment is new. The hull etc is new and the systems on my boat are not 30 years old both equipment and design wise. I think the people that follow Brent's ideas re building save money. I have bought all of the fittings and hardware but have never paid retail buying them. I have saved thousands over the last 5 years buying new parts at swap meets, from word of mouth and wholesale. The best advise I can give you if u do decide to build is do not pay retail for anything. Stay out of marine stores. Even their "sales" net them alot of your money. Seek out wholesale, scrap yards, swap meets, buy and sell etc. Retail buying will double the cost of your craft. If I had more time and skill I would have made more of the parts myself. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" wrote: > > Does anyone have any real pragmatic figures on the materials cost and > labor for one person to build a 28' to 32' boat built in aluminum with > this construction? I will have the time and money, I hope, by next > spring to start. I wish to build a single-hander, approx. 30' - 32' > for serious bluewater cruising. Thanks for your information. > > Rob > | 11060|11048|2006-05-25 10:25:08|vagabundouno|Re: Aluminum and cost|Thank you Gerd. I am have pretty much convinced myself to build in aluminum. Besides weight reduction and the savings of the associated equipment, less maintenance comes to mind vs. steel. Just a thought, but what do you think about building a catamaran's twin hulls this way? It seems since they would be smaller, they would be a lot easier and faster to build. Rob --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > OK, Rob, it is getting clearer - and then again it isn't ;-) > Do a search of the forum for aluminium and you will fnd VERY long > and VERY heated discussions about just that, plus about advantages > and problems. > A lot of the pro-alloy posting came from Greg Elliot > (www.origamimagic.com) > his point is that an alloy hull would actuall be cheaper than steel > for a number of reasons: > - if it's lighter then everything on your boat is lighter, less > lead, lighter rig ergo less cost and so on > - sandblasting and good quality paint can get very expensive (but > painting alloy, although not really neede, is not cheap either) > - Greg also made extensive calculations where he included the resale > value of the boat and - as he saw it - the higher value of an alloy > boat on the market > > As a very rough guide, if you would estimate the cost for your hull > & deck as one third, inside and equipment another and the rig, sails > and fittings as the third, then a difference of let's say even 50 %, > if it's that much, for the shell alone can be reduced by lighter rig > material and less ballast etc to just a few percent overall cost. > > My very personal opinion is that on the total final budget there is > Ürobably not enough of a difference to base you choice on PRICE, > Rather you should choose the material for your cruising program and > the type of boat you dream of (go fast and light with alloy or bump > into lots of coral reefs with steel) as well as your building > conditions (shelter, tools, experience...) and finally your > preferences for the material. > > One big advantage of steel is that it's good for the pay-as-you- > build budget, because you can get startet for a handful of dollars, > with a grinder and an old buzzbox, in a field. 2000 $ of steel can > keep you busy for a long time ;-) For alloy you need a lot more cash > up front. > > > Gerd > But at the end, depending how you build, you will end up with much > the same overall expense. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" > wrote: > > > > Thanks, Gerd. > > > > I was expecting that answer, since I was not clear with my > question. I > > am looking for the cost difference between using the origami method > > for steel vs aluminum. I have tons of steel experience and some > > aluminum. So a comment like, "4:1 more expensive to use aluminum" > was > > the type of answer I was expecting. Any thoughts on the origami > method > > for aluminum construction? Any tips or pitfalls? Thanks, > > > > Rob > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any real pragmatic figures on the materials > cost and > > > > labor for one person to build a 28' to 32' boat built in > aluminum > > > > > > Hi Rob - that's still a bit to global a question to give a > proper > > > answer. > > > First of all there is already a world between 28 and 32 feet, > > > absolutely not comparable. If you want to look at comparable > boats, > > > use the length of the waterline and the displacement, to get any > sort > > > of valid relationship. > > > Then it depends what type of boat you are looking at, what rig, > what > > > cruising program, what construction method. > > > Say a 28 foot junk with very ZEN interior fitting on one side > and a 32 > > > foot marconi sloop with all new fully battened main and harken > slides > > > all the usual deckgear and fitted out to commercial standards > on teh > > > other could easily be a 1: 10 difference in the budget! ;-) > > > > > > You can ask the designer, and he may give you an estimate, but > > > depeding ont eh builder he may still launch the same design for > 50 % > > > less or 100 % more... > > > > > > The only way to sort that out is to take a material spec list > for a > > > similar boat - often supplied with the study plans - and then > make a > > > list of everything that's not yet listed there and dig into the > > > catalogues and get on the phon and put a price next to each item. > > > > > > After that - if you still feel like wanting a boat ;-) - you go > > > through your list and decide what is it that you can do without, > and > > > what you might be able to get second hand or improvise or build > > > yourself. Brents book is a good starting point on how to do > simple, > > > safe and cheap. > > > > > > Don't trust anybody's budget, you will need to do your own, > because > > > most of these decisions are so personal and so much depends on > the way > > > you live your life and make your deals every day.. if you > already live > > > cheaper than anybody you know you will manage to build cheap, if > you > > > are the type of person who gets bad deals everywhere, expect to > pay > > > too much for your boat as well ;-) > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > | 11061|11048|2006-05-25 15:10:36|Gerd|Re: Aluminum and cost|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vagabundouno" wrote: > Besides weight reduction and the savings of the associated > equipment, .... yes, but: this is ONLY true if the boat was specifically designed for alloy and rig etc were dimensioned accordingly. Catamaran: yes, there is no reason not to design a cat in origami, although you might want to reasearch different dart-patterns. the length to beam relationship is different and in the long central part where our hulls have the chines, there is much less curvature, meaning also less tension for strentgh and fairness, might be interesting to try shapes with darts at the ends and a more rounded section in the center. Also, you might try a stepped hull with one pattern for the underwater section and the first part above and one or more patterns to add on top of that up to the sheerline outside and widening the hull to join the underside of the bridgedeck.. probably not clear what I mean ;-) but I can see some possibilities there. Another thing I am always thinking about is how we could produce nice superstructures by folding darts, there must be lots of things to discover as well Gerd The YAGO project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 11062|11062|2006-05-26 13:40:39|khooper_fboats|45' Tanton Origami|YM Tanton reports that he has now been involved in the completion of two of his 39' origami "Beyond" yachts, one in steel and one in alloy. I haven't been able to get any pictures out of him yet. Drawings of this boat have been posted on the web site of this group several times but I think these are the first two to be built. I personally am excited because I finally convinced Tanton to draw a 45 footer, it required some persuading but he has now sent preliminary drawings and is clearly interested with the project. This is not a stretched 39, it is a true 45. Next is to contruct a model and make sure the hull folds right as drawn. I'll probably do one small model this weekend in aluminum sheet and then a larger one in plexiglass, scaled to a poseable figure (G.I Joe or something like that) so I can use it later in working out the interior. If the figure is 11.5" the model would be around seven feet long... The boat will be steel, bilge keels, center cockpit, looks like beam will be around 13'6". Sorta depends on the bulwarks and deck camber. Outboard steering. Mast low like 58' or 60'. Will post pictures when I get the first model made. If you're interested in these plans contact Yves Tanton, www.tantonyachts.com --Ken| 11063|11062|2006-05-26 14:20:02|Gerd|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Congratulations for your decision, Ken, YM Tanton is one of my favorite designers. I have spent hours browsing his site and looking for the special feature in each design, there are always unique elements that make his boats quite different from what they look like at first sight. And every time I learn something new, just trying to figure it out ;-) Keep us posted, ok? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > YM Tanton reports that he has now been involved in the completion of > two of his 39' origami "Beyond" yachts, one in steel and one in alloy. > I haven't been able to get any pictures out of him yet. Drawings of > this boat have been posted on the web site of this group several times > but I think these are the first two to be built. > > I personally am excited because I finally convinced Tanton to draw a > 45 footer, it required some persuading but he has now sent preliminary > drawings and is clearly interested with the project. This is not a > stretched 39, it is a true 45. Next is to contruct a model and make > sure the hull folds right as drawn. > > I'll probably do one small model this weekend in aluminum sheet and > then a larger one in plexiglass, scaled to a poseable figure (G.I Joe > or something like that) so I can use it later in working out the > interior. If the figure is 11.5" the model would be around seven feet > long... > > The boat will be steel, bilge keels, center cockpit, looks like beam > will be around 13'6". Sorta depends on the bulwarks and deck camber. > Outboard steering. Mast low like 58' or 60'. > > Will post pictures when I get the first model made. If you're > interested in these plans contact Yves Tanton, www.tantonyachts.com > > --Ken > | 11065|11065|2006-05-29 13:58:29|kingsknight4life|Some things to consider|Hi everyone The time is getting near when I will be blasting and painting our boat. As I approach this "point of no return" as far as welding goes I constantly wonder if I'll have enough attachment points for my firring strips. So I took a previous posters advice (sorry don't remeber who)and tried using "glue". I took and old piece of plate left over from the construction that had been lying outside in the rain for over a year, wiped it off with a cloth and glued on a piece of yellow cedar and a piece of hemlock. The steel wasn't cleaned with any solvents or mechanical devices, just one swipe with a cloth. Then I put some some BulldogGrip polyeurethane glue and clamped the wood to the steel. Less that 24 hrs later (which is full cure time)I tried to pull the wood off of the steel and the wood gave way before the glue. I will post some of the pics in the Origami 2 site later today or tomorrow. Ths stuff works awesome and was $5 a tube, way cheaper than Sikaflex. Rowland| 11066|11065|2006-05-29 14:19:26|Richard Till|Re: Some things to consider|On "My Island" I used wood blocks glued with polyurethane in places where there was a need for an attachment point after the painting was done. The wood grain ruptures before the bedding compound releases. rt >From: "kingsknight4life" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Some things to consider >Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:58:13 -0000 > >Hi everyone >The time is getting near when I will be blasting and painting our >boat. As I approach this "point of no return" as far as welding goes >I constantly wonder if I'll have enough attachment points for my >firring strips. So I took a previous posters advice (sorry don't >remeber who)and tried using "glue". > >I took and old piece of plate left over from the construction that >had been lying outside in the rain for over a year, wiped it off >with a cloth and glued on a piece of yellow cedar and a piece of >hemlock. The steel wasn't cleaned with any solvents or mechanical >devices, just one swipe with a cloth. Then I put some some >BulldogGrip polyeurethane glue and clamped the wood to the steel. >Less that 24 hrs later (which is full cure time)I tried to pull the >wood off of the steel and the wood gave way before the glue. > >I will post some of the pics in the Origami 2 site later today or >tomorrow. Ths stuff works awesome and was $5 a tube, way cheaper >than Sikaflex. >Rowland > > > _________________________________________________________________ Boarding gates to the MSN Search World Tour weekly destinations closing soon http://worldtour.sympatico.msn.ca/| 11067|11067|2006-05-29 17:02:20|abellzey|Getting started|I have recently purchased a set of plans for a tanton 39' and hope to start to work soon. I have been told that Brent Swain has a book and video on origami construction and I would be interested in buying them. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, Alan| 11068|11065|2006-05-29 22:04:51|mickeyolaf|Re: Some things to consider|I know I mentioned it before but you should look at that Steelcote 2 part epoxy primer and paint. The boat I painted in 1992 has still not been repainted and looks good. It chalks but nothing a good waxing doesn't correct. Good luck with the blasting. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi everyone > The time is getting near when I will be blasting and painting our > boat. As I approach this "point of no return" as far as welding goes > I constantly wonder if I'll have enough attachment points for my > firring strips. So I took a previous posters advice (sorry don't > remeber who)and tried using "glue". > > I took and old piece of plate left over from the construction that > had been lying outside in the rain for over a year, wiped it off > with a cloth and glued on a piece of yellow cedar and a piece of > hemlock. The steel wasn't cleaned with any solvents or mechanical > devices, just one swipe with a cloth. Then I put some some > BulldogGrip polyeurethane glue and clamped the wood to the steel. > Less that 24 hrs later (which is full cure time)I tried to pull the > wood off of the steel and the wood gave way before the glue. > > I will post some of the pics in the Origami 2 site later today or > tomorrow. Ths stuff works awesome and was $5 a tube, way cheaper > than Sikaflex. > Rowland > | 11069|11062|2006-05-30 10:24:17|khooper_fboats|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Thanks Gerd. I've been trying to forge ahead with the modeling this weekend. I tried to make a plating model 25" long from some aluminum I had around. The material is too thick I think, about 1/16" maybe, it is extremely stiff. I had to cut the shapes with a scroll saw. It might work if I could weld it but it's just not manageable with the JB-Weld epoxy and toothpicks I was going to use. I got it all cut but I can't see getting it bent and fastened. What do you use for modeling? I wanted to stay away from wood & paper if possible, the wood is too axial because of its grain and I don't think paper would be rugged or stiff enough. --Ken| 11070|11062|2006-05-30 14:27:27|Wesley Cox|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|To interject, I use aluminum flashing, which is typically 0.015". The batch I currently have is 0.020". It cuts with stout scissors, which is much more accurate and fast than tin snips. I join it with 2" wide aluminum tape cut in 1/2" - 3/4" widths, the 2" direction attached perpendicular to the joints. The 3/4" lengths are necessary to lay relatively flat and follow curvature. The models aren't show room pretty but it's quick, sturdy and water proof. khooper_fboats wrote: >Thanks Gerd. > >I've been trying to forge ahead with the modeling this weekend. I >tried to make a plating model 25" long from some aluminum I had >around. The material is too thick I think, about 1/16" maybe, it is >extremely stiff. I had to cut the shapes with a scroll saw. It might >work if I could weld it but it's just not manageable with the JB-Weld >epoxy and toothpicks I was going to use. I got it all cut but I can't >see getting it bent and fastened. > >What do you use for modeling? I wanted to stay away from wood & paper >if possible, the wood is too axial because of its grain and I don't >think paper would be rugged or stiff enough. > >--Ken > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 11071|11062|2006-05-30 14:52:35|Gerd|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|We have been doing some nice modelling with 1 mm , for a 36 footer at a 1 : 10 scale. That is stiff, but gives nice results. what we did is pull it together, and then taped it from the outside with powertape, then you could fill the seams with glue from the inside and remove the tape. it's good to have four hands though ;-) building the real thing is almost easier... your --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Thanks Gerd. > > I've been trying to forge ahead with the modeling this weekend. I > tried to make a plating model 25" long from some aluminum I had > around. The material is too thick I think, about 1/16" maybe, it is > extremely stiff. I had to cut the shapes with a scroll saw. It might > work if I could weld it but it's just not manageable with the JB- Weld > epoxy and toothpicks I was going to use. I got it all cut but I can't > see getting it bent and fastened. > > What do you use for modeling? I wanted to stay away from wood & paper > if possible, the wood is too axial because of its grain and I don't > think paper would be rugged or stiff enough. > > --Ken > | 11072|11072|2006-05-30 15:39:04|Alex Christie|Shorto sailing video Swain 36 footer|I am gathering footage for my next films, and recently cobbled together some footage from my daysail on a 36 foot Swain 36 footer for you to see, it should play automatically on this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_R6U5fxMYA The same footage is in raw format in the group files, just without the fancy editing and music :-) It was taken on my little digital camera in between shots using my regular DV cam, so pretty low res, but gives you a taste of salt as we rollick along in 30 knot winds! The finished film will have better definition, and I will be showing the sailboat in use in very diverse places (Antigua...to Antarctica). This movie plays on Youtube automatically when you click on the link. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11073|11073|2006-05-30 15:57:58|Jonathan Stevens|model|Ken, You could anneal the aluminium; I remember doing this at school. We rubbed soap on and then heated it until the soap went black. Any hotter and the Al: would melt. Then let it cool naturally. I used to use the same trick when welding with Oxy acetylene and the job needed to be preheated e.g. castings. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11074|9840|2006-05-30 21:10:07|tom|BS 26|Hello All Well I've been busy on the boat this weekend, Keel , Skeg and the peice between is installed and welded on the out side. A while back I remember reading on some of the skeg failures because of not bracing on the inside, just for kicks I welded mine on with no bracing with the 3/8" plate to the keel fully welded and I can see why they had problems, I could grab the bottom of the skeg with one hand and flex it about 4" side to side, So I tacked in one cross brace about 24" wide catching the first stringer and then it was solid. I did weld in two braces sofar + theres going to be one more where the stearn tube comes threw. I was playing around with the stearn tube angles and there seems to be plenty of room from about 8 to 14 degrees the only problem is the engine would stick 18 to 20 inches into the cabin and the more angle you give it the higher the engine gets, I guess I just have to find a happy mediam, V drive might be an option allso, I will have to check on that one to see if theres room. Are there any more 26's being built besides Arrons and mine ? One thing I wanted to bring up was when I first started building I thought it would be a lot easyer to build inside and use a mig, After welding the inside under decks with a mig sitting in the middle of the boat, I would have to say in my opinion its more a pain in the A-- then its worth stick is a whole lot easyer out of position and the mig wasnt much faster. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11075|11075|2006-05-30 23:08:10|kingsknight4life|Zinga|Hi anyone out there using Zinga to prime their boat? I think Alex and Gord have? any pro's or con's to using ths stuff? It's suppossed to be better than flame spraying or hot dip galvanzing? Any timely advice out there as the time for blasting is quick approaching. Rowland| 11076|11075|2006-05-30 23:41:25|Alex Christie|Re: Zinga|I've got Zinga on my keels so far and no problems seen there, but the boat's not in the water yet The main advantage I see is ease of application -- it can be recoated on itself any time as the strong solvents "bite" into the already dried Zinga, meaning the coating will always be tied together, no need to keep a wet edge when painting. This makes it fantastically low-tech for retouching later on. I can't attest to it's use under paint yet, but I'm thinking of using it on the decks after I sandblast them. It would in fact allow me to do blasting in small patches as needed, instead of blasting and painting all in one day. I'll be sure to inform the group as to how it all works out when I get to that point. Zinga has huge amounts of zinc in its formulation -- a small can is quite heavy. I can't say how well it sticks or not, but note the literature says to make sure the steel surface has a good "profile" for it to hang onto, which means that there is a mechanical aspect to its adherence. I note that the test-daubs of Wasser (mio-zinc?) on the boat next to mine are still good after sitting the weather for several years. It's a completely different animal, of course, and moisture-cured rather than the solvent-based Zinga. You could carry a can of Zinga on board for repairs to your coating and as long as it's sealed well it'll be fine. Wasser is more finicky to store long term but from what I've read and heard it is also a very good product. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: kingsknight4life To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Zinga Hi anyone out there using Zinga to prime their boat? I think Alex and Gord have? any pro's or con's to using ths stuff? It's suppossed to be better than flame spraying or hot dip galvanzing? Any timely advice out there as the time for blasting is quick approaching. Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11077|11075|2006-05-31 09:03:50|tom|Re: Zinga|Hello Rowland I was allso thinking about useing Zinga on my 26, A while back I asked about it on the boat building forum and was told by some experts that it is good above the water line and inside the boat. Not to use it below waterline because if it got scatched to the metal it would start rusting under the galvanizing and peel off. Not sure how true that is but I was allso told the paint would peel off the galvanizing below the waterline. I like the idea of being able to sandblast smaller areas, apply Zinga and not worry about overcoat times. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Zinga > Hi > anyone out there using Zinga to prime their boat? I think Alex and > Gord have? any pro's or con's to using ths stuff? It's suppossed to be > better than flame spraying or hot dip galvanzing? Any timely advice > out there as the time for blasting is quick approaching. > Rowland > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11078|11073|2006-05-31 10:13:26|khooper_fboats|Re: model|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" wrote: > You could anneal the aluminium; I remember doing this at school. Hm, interesting, I learn so much here! It looks like the annealing point for 5000 series is 650 F (I think this stuff is 5052). I know this would cut the strength of it about in half but I'm not clear on whether this would make it a whole lot more workable. Might chuck it in the barbeque with an oven thermometer and see what happens just for curiosity. Thanks! --Ken| 11079|11062|2006-05-31 11:16:43|khooper_fboats|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox wrote: > > To interject, I use aluminum flashing, which is typically 0.015". [Hope this doesn't post twice] Wesley, thanks, I think the flashing is working out nicely. Will post some pix to a web site soon if anybody is interested in this rather mundane process (I do get a big charge out of it). --Ken| 11080|11073|2006-05-31 12:05:54|racer577@citystar.com|Re: model|If I remember correctly 5000 series aluminum does not get a lot softer due to heat like 6061, 6063, or 7075, which are all heat aged. My real job is teflon coating aluminum rollers. On the 6000 and 7000 series aluminum 800F brings them back to a T0 temper and they are very soft and much easier to form. John > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" > wrote: > >> You could anneal the aluminium; I remember doing this at school. > > Hm, interesting, I learn so much here! It looks like the annealing > point for 5000 series is 650 F (I think this stuff is 5052). I know > this would cut the strength of it about in half but I'm not clear on > whether this would make it a whole lot more workable. Might chuck it > in the barbeque with an oven thermometer and see what happens just for > curiosity. Thanks! > > --Ken > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11081|11073|2006-05-31 15:09:27|Dick Pilz|Re: model|For 5000 series (and 3000 series) the "temper" designation such as H116 or H32 refers to the amount of work hardening put into the material at the mill. Heating the aluminum past 650 degrees removes all of the work hardening and coarsens the grain slightly. You can cool the aluminum rapidly if you need to but it may warp. Typically 5086-H32 will lose almost half its ultimate strength from heat softening. This happens ANYWAY in the heat-affected zone of the weld joint or seam. I used to design aluminum pressure vessels (ASME U&UM and SAE J703) and this was the controlling stress factor. If your aluminum thickness is twice what A36 steel would be, your heat affected zone will be the same strength as the steel and you will still be lighter. Stiffer, too, for them as can afford it. Fair hulls and fair sailing, Dick --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, racer577@... wrote: > > If I remember correctly 5000 series aluminum does not get a lot softer due > to heat like 6061, 6063, or 7075, which are all heat aged. My real job is > teflon coating aluminum rollers. On the 6000 and 7000 series aluminum > 800F brings them back to a T0 temper and they are very soft and much > easier to form. > > John > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Stevens" > > wrote: > > > >> You could anneal the aluminium; I remember doing this at school. > > > > Hm, interesting, I learn so much here! It looks like the annealing > > point for 5000 series is 650 F (I think this stuff is 5052). I know > > this would cut the strength of it about in half but I'm not clear on > > whether this would make it a whole lot more workable. Might chuck it > > in the barbeque with an oven thermometer and see what happens just for > > curiosity. Thanks! > > > > --Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11082|11062|2006-05-31 18:38:09|gschnell|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Ken Try using brass shim stock (available from most industrial tool suppliers). I modeled my 40' Breant Swain design before building it. You can cut it with scissors and weld it with solder. Works very well! Let me know how that works for you. Gord khooper_fboats wrote: > > Thanks Gerd. > > I've been trying to forge ahead with the modeling this weekend. I > tried to make a plating model 25" long from some aluminum I had > around. The material is too thick I think, about 1/16" maybe, it is > extremely stiff. I had to cut the shapes with a scroll saw. It might > work if I could weld it but it's just not manageable with the JB-Weld > epoxy and toothpicks I was going to use. I got it all cut but I can't > see getting it bent and fastened. > > What do you use for modeling? I wanted to stay away from wood & paper > if possible, the wood is too axial because of its grain and I don't > think paper would be rugged or stiff enough. > > --Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "origamiboats" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11083|11072|2006-06-01 22:12:36|silascrosby|Re: Shorto sailing video Swain 36 footer|Alex , perhaps I am a little biased but your video is excellent , worthy of Cannes at least. Steve| 11084|11084|2006-06-01 22:45:26|sv2gether|replate|I bought a Roberts Spray 36C ten years ago. I have some serious rust in the chain/rode locker and small places elsewhere. I am intriged with the origami method and would like to replace my horse-ribbed hull and also keel areas using this method, but I "see" some possible problems (peeling away the foamed steel "skin" and the attachments to the interior. Anyone done this? I am purposely keeping this message simple. And yes,I did live aboard for 5 years and sail....motored the East Coast,Bahamas, Florida Keys.| 11085|11084|2006-06-01 23:29:32|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: replate|On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 02:45:18AM -0000, sv2gether wrote: > I bought a Roberts Spray 36C ten years ago. I have some serious rust > in the chain/rode locker and small places elsewhere. I am intriged > with the origami method and would like to replace my horse-ribbed > hull and also keel areas using this method, but I "see" some possible > problems (peeling away the foamed steel "skin" and the attachments to > the interior. Anyone done this? I am purposely keeping this message > simple. And yes,I did live aboard for 5 years and sail....motored > the East Coast,Bahamas, Florida Keys. I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm not sure that what you're describing can be done at all. I just recently had the bottom of "Ulysses" (a 34' Petersen Gouwzee) replated, and the new plate went over the old - after sandblasting and removal of any previous patches, that is. The problem is that the hull plates are part of the load-bearing framework; you can't just remove it and expect whatever is left to continue standing. In fact, when a large patched area just in front of my keel was "stripped" of its patches, exposing a large void, the bow began to sag (!) - we had to move pretty quickly with a jackstand to prevent it from causing damage to the rest of the hull. Nowadays, that area sports a 1/4" plate carried from the front of the keel onto the bow - and the stem is reinforced by a piece of 3/4" solid square bar. "Ulysses" probably gained pretty close to 1500lbs. from the replating, but I've never been a speed fiend anyway - and she started out at 29,500lbs in the first place. It may be worth your while to open up access to your chain locker by cutting in from the side and dealing with whatever you find; that may be a lot simpler than replating (which, as I can tell you from personal experience, is no cakewalk.) The small places can be handled with patches, of course. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11086|11086|2006-06-02 08:54:40|Gerd|New Website and mail www.yago-project.com|Hi all - I Just wanted to let you know that I finally got around to rebuild my website. Also there is now a German translation for most of the pages as well, so my compatriots will no longer accuse me of being such a snob ;-) At the same occasion, I set up a new domain, so from now on please bookmark us at http://www.yago-project.com the old justmueller.site will keep running for some time, but will not be maintained. For those of you interested in the technical aspect: it's an open source CMS content managemanet system, very good, very flexible, lots of plugins - it's at www.joomla.org. All the best from Budapest Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 11087|11087|2006-06-02 20:56:45|tom|stern bearing/shaft tube|Hello All After doing a little research on the shaft tube for a 1" shaft I came up with details for it and it calls for 1-7/8" OD tube, 3/16" wall and then machine one end to 1-3/4" OD to accsept the stuffing box hose. This came from what I call old school method, traditional building plans for steel Is there a newer better method or is it still done the same way? Thanks for any info and have a good weekend Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11088|11086|2006-06-02 21:31:19|tom|Re: New Website and mail www.yago-project.com|Hello Gerd I was on youre new website a couple days ago and I realy injoyed it, especialy the why build a boat section. Build because you wana build a boat about sums it up. Ive had several people ask me why I am building one and the only real awnser I can give them is because I allways wanted to. Keep up the good work Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] New Website and mail www.yago-project.com Hi all - I Just wanted to let you know that I finally got around to rebuild my website. Also there is now a German translation for most of the pages as well, so my compatriots will no longer accuse me of being such a snob ;-) At the same occasion, I set up a new domain, so from now on please bookmark us at http://www.yago-project.com the old justmueller.site will keep running for some time, but will not be maintained. For those of you interested in the technical aspect: it's an open source CMS content managemanet system, very good, very flexible, lots of plugins - it's at www.joomla.org. All the best from Budapest Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 11089|11086|2006-06-03 01:56:05|Gerd|Re: New Website and mail www.yago-project.com|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > Ive had several people ask me why I am building one and the only > real awnser I can give them is because I allways wanted to. Tom, that means you have the bug. Most people get over it. It's just that if in a couple of years somebody asks you "why you build AGAIN" that you have to be careful, because that means it's probably a trerminal condition by then ;-) Gerd http://www.yago-project.com/| 11090|11087|2006-06-05 13:56:45|Rosse, Fred|Re: stern bearing/shaft tube|No need to machine a 1-7/8 OD tube down to 1-3/4 OD, to accept a hose, just stretch the hose over the 1-7/8 pipe and clamp it in place. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of tom Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 8:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] stern bearing/shaft tube Hello All After doing a little research on the shaft tube for a 1" shaft I came up with details for it and it calls for 1-7/8" OD tube, 3/16" wall and then machine one end to 1-3/4" OD to accsept the stuffing box hose. This came from what I call old school method, traditional building plans for steel Is there a newer better method or is it still done the same way? Thanks for any info and have a good weekend Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS British columbia canada Vancouver island Yacht _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group " origamiboats " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11091|11091|2006-06-05 22:02:17|Gary|GPS|Hello.... I am getting Blue Chart and want to run an external antenna to hook up to my notebook computer. I do not want the short "box" with the USB cable but a good external antenna and cable. What do I need... many thanks... Gary| 11092|11092|2006-06-06 04:08:12|Len den Besten|Coppercoat|Anyone here with experience re coppercoat (antifouling) on an aluminium hull?| 11093|11092|2006-06-06 19:47:18|sunbearone|Re: Coppercoat|I have used The powdered copper from west system as a base for my plywood hull and it caused some destruction of galvanized rudder fitting that were not properly covered in epoxy to isolate them. Suggest you contact several big marine paint companies so that you might have the protection of a warranty if anything should happen??Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Len den Besten" wrote: > > Anyone here with experience re coppercoat (antifouling) on an > aluminium hull? > | 11094|11092|2006-06-07 03:50:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: Coppercoat|Len, I shouldn't think that anyone here has coppercoated an aluminium hull. I hope not. The aluminium will suffer galvanic corrosion. Copper antifouling data sheets state that it should not be used on an aluminium or zinc/galvanised substrate. You can Google galvanic corrosion to get more information. Regards, Ted| 11095|11095|2006-06-07 05:36:55|Helmut Schlager|small origami hull|hi all, is anywhere somewhat as a study plan for brent`s 26 footer? is the price from 200$ (canadian?) for the plan still ok? is there any smaller design (about 20 feet, motorship, motorsailer) around? helmut| 11096|11051|2006-06-07 05:57:03|Helmut Schlager|Re: Brent's Origami Dinghy|hi brent yesterday your book arrived, I hoped, that there is a detailed descripton (even with some pictures) inside hthe book, of your boats, but unforetenly nothing in, so do you have some "studyplans", I`m also interrested in smaller boats (around 20 feet) by the way, what do you mean with 14 gauge material (at the dingy description, instaed of 1/8 thick aluminium, i guess, its thickness of material, but dont know how to convert it into metric) regards helmut > > > Just copy the one in the book,make a model in cardboard, then modify > it > > to your own needs. I'd make the transom and bottom wider if I were > > doing it agin. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Helmut Schlager > > wrote: > > > > > > as postet in files: > > > is it possible to get the plan for the dinghy ? > > > for first time origami? > > > > > > Helmut Schlager > > > Plankenstein 10 > > > A-3242 Texingtal > > > Austria > > > > > > | 11097|11062|2006-06-07 10:16:34|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Let me know if i understood.... You used, for a model, brass sheet, but i couldn't understand how you could weld it... What is "solder"? You mean welding? What kind? It's a matter of language.... thanks alfredo (italy) > Ken > Try using brass shim stock (available from most industrial tool > suppliers). I modeled my 40' Breant Swain design before building it. > You can cut it with scissors and weld it with solder. Works very well! > Let me know how that works for you. Gord | 11098|11072|2006-06-07 10:43:21|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: Shorto sailing video Swain 36 footer|Hy Alex, could you tell me the author of the music (and the title) you put as a back ground of the short movie? Nice the video... thanks alfredo (italy) > I am gathering footage for my next films, and recently cobbled > together some footage from my daysail on a 36 foot Swain 36 footer for > you to see, it should play automatically on this link: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_R6U5fxMYA > > The same footage is in raw format in the group files, just without the > fancy editing and music :-) It was taken on my little digital camera > in between shots using my regular DV cam, so pretty low res, but gives > you a taste of salt as we rollick along in 30 knot winds! The finished > film will have better definition, and I will be showing the sailboat > in use in very diverse places (Antigua...to Antarctica). > > This movie plays on Youtube automatically when you click on the link. > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> You can search right from your browser? It's > easy and it's free. See how. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 11099|11062|2006-06-07 14:45:02|edward_stoneuk|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Alfredo, I think solder is saldatura in Italian. It is an alloy of tin (Sn) and lead (Pb)and used to join electrical and electronic wiring. Regards, Ted| 11100|11092|2006-06-07 15:58:25|Darren Bos|Re: Coppercoat|There was a review of coppercoat and other epoxy-copper antifouling systems in Practical Boat Owner a couple of months back. Actually, there were two articles, one month was the commercially applied copper-epoxy products and the subsequent issue had an article on the products to be applied by the home user. Copper-epoxy systems seem to be more popular in England than they are here. Apparently they can be used on aluminum unlike traditional antifouling paints. Usually the hull is given an epoxy barrier coat without the copper powder and then several subsequent coats of epoxy and copper. Apparently the epoxy barrier coat, and the fact that the copper is in spheres both act to help prevent galvanic corrosion. However, I have no experience with the product. Darren ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wednesday, June 7, 2006 0:47 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Coppercoat > Len, > I shouldn't think that anyone here has coppercoated an aluminium > hull. I hope not. The aluminium will suffer galvanic corrosion. > Copper antifouling data sheets state that it should not be used on > an > aluminium or zinc/galvanised substrate. You can Google galvanic > corrosion to get more information. > Regards, > Ted > > > > | 11101|11092|2006-06-07 21:41:42|mickeyolaf|Re: Coppercoat|Everything I have ever read says no to copper paint on aluminum hulls. One scrape of the hull that bares aluminum and problems begin. After all of the work putting a boat together why take a chance in the end with paint that could ruin the project. Have a look at "E-Paint" systems. They have an informative web site. They are totally safe for aluminum. Are used by the US Navy and Coast Guard for all of their aluminum craft even their high speed boats. The paint releases hydrogen peroxide to prevent fouling. Sixteen pounds of paint for $232 US. There are also some great articles on the web by Michael Kasten re painting aluminum hulls. He does not recommend copper. He has some really excellent essays on aluminum building and corrosion protection. He endorses frameless building as per BS boats. He also has good ideas re Zinc placement, wiring, bonding (or not bonding) etc. Roland, u should look at his article re prepping steel and painting steel. Some good ideas. He recommends epoxy barrier coats for longevity and ease of maintenace. Less yard work, more sailing. I am going out to the Steele Coat Epoxy paint people on Friday for the paint for my aluminum hull. I will let you know what the cost will be for a 36. I am going with 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of paint. My brother and I will put it on with rollers. Fair and sand and then hopefully polyurethane sprayed by a professional if I can find one that doesn't overcharge. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > There was a review of coppercoat and other epoxy-copper antifouling systems in Practical Boat Owner a couple of months back. Actually, there were two articles, one month was the commercially applied copper-epoxy products and the subsequent issue had an article on the products to be applied by the home user. Copper-epoxy systems seem to be more popular in England than they are here. Apparently they can be used on aluminum unlike traditional antifouling paints. Usually the hull is given an epoxy barrier coat without the copper powder and then several subsequent coats of epoxy and copper. Apparently the epoxy barrier coat, and the fact that the copper is in spheres both act to help prevent galvanic corrosion. However, I have no experience with the product. > > Darren > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > Date: Wednesday, June 7, 2006 0:47 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Coppercoat > > > Len, > > I shouldn't think that anyone here has coppercoated an aluminium > > hull. I hope not. The aluminium will suffer galvanic corrosion. > > Copper antifouling data sheets state that it should not be used on > > an > > aluminium or zinc/galvanised substrate. You can Google galvanic > > corrosion to get more information. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > | 11102|11092|2006-06-08 02:56:43|Len den Besten|Re: Coppercoat|Thanks for responding. I've done some research of my own. In the Netherlands we have the Corrosion Advisory Institute. A body of knowledge about corrosion can be accessed there. Financed by the complete metal-related Dutch industry, these guys combine knowledge and experience about (amongst others) galvanic corrosion. When I put the question to them they explained to me that a barrier coat of epoxy works like a isolator (or is it insulator?). So, what happens in their view if the bottom gets scratched upon the bare aluminum? Answer: with that kind of scratch there indeed are the two elements copper and aluminum submerged in electrolyte at that spot. But can a small current start flowing? The answer is no because there is no circuit. The epoxy in which the copper is embedded in the coppercoat-product is non conductive. I asked why everybody discourages using copper-containing antifouling on alu hulls? Answer: it all depends on 1) the conductivity of the epoxy and 2) the way the (perhaps conductive) ntifouling is applied onto the bare aluminum. When conductive aluminum is applied on a bare alu hull and the hull suffers a deep scratch, there is a circuit in which current will flow and the aluminum will start sacrificing itself. Despite the copper-powder contained in the Coppercoat-epoxy, it is said to be non conductive. This can easily be tested. I am tempted I must say. The advantages are proven effectiveness in anti-fouling When you sand it lightly once a year you replace the outside copper- oxide with new copper so it stays effective longlasting cause it's a very hard layer (it can be scrubbed without losing it). I know, this is a subject that you cant take lightly. But when the product is non-conductive, why should I stay away from it? The majority of answers I get here says: stay away, don't take the risk. But can you explain to me why there is a risk? What exact situation do you refer to when you say galvanic corrosion will occur? Thanks, I'm looking forward to your replies. Len. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Everything I have ever read says no to copper paint on aluminum hulls. One scrape of the > hull that bares aluminum and problems begin. After all of the work putting a boat together > why take a chance in the end with paint that could ruin the project. > Have a look at "E-Paint" systems. They have an informative web site. They are totally safe > for aluminum. Are used by the US Navy and Coast Guard for all of their aluminum craft > even their high speed boats. The paint releases hydrogen peroxide to prevent fouling. > Sixteen pounds of paint for $232 US. > There are also some great articles on the web by Michael Kasten re painting aluminum > hulls. He does not recommend copper. > He has some really excellent essays on aluminum building and corrosion protection. He > endorses frameless building as per BS boats. He also has good ideas re Zinc placement, > wiring, bonding (or not bonding) etc. > Roland, u should look at his article re prepping steel and painting steel. Some good ideas. > He recommends epoxy barrier coats for longevity and ease of maintenace. Less yard work, > more sailing. > I am going out to the Steele Coat Epoxy paint people on Friday for the paint for my > aluminum hull. I will let you know what the cost will be for a 36. I am going with 2 coats of > primer and 2 coats of paint. My brother and I will put it on with rollers. Fair and sand and > then hopefully polyurethane sprayed by a professional if I can find one that doesn't > overcharge. > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > There was a review of coppercoat and other epoxy-copper antifouling systems in > Practical Boat Owner a couple of months back. Actually, there were two articles, one > month was the commercially applied copper-epoxy products and the subsequent issue > had an article on the products to be applied by the home user. Copper-epoxy systems > seem to be more popular in England than they are here. Apparently they can be used on > aluminum unlike traditional antifouling paints. Usually the hull is given an epoxy barrier > coat without the copper powder and then several subsequent coats of epoxy and copper. > Apparently the epoxy barrier coat, and the fact that the copper is in spheres both act to > help prevent galvanic corrosion. However, I have no experience with the product. > > > > Darren > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: edward_stoneuk > > Date: Wednesday, June 7, 2006 0:47 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Coppercoat > > > > > Len, > > > I shouldn't think that anyone here has coppercoated an aluminium > > > hull. I hope not. The aluminium will suffer galvanic corrosion. > > > Copper antifouling data sheets state that it should not be used on > > > an > > > aluminium or zinc/galvanised substrate. You can Google galvanic > > > corrosion to get more information. > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11103|11092|2006-06-08 02:57:39|Len den Besten|Re: Coppercoat|Thanks for responding. I've done some research of my own. In the Netherlands we have the Corrosion Advisory Institute. A body of knowledge about corrosion can be accessed there. Financed by the complete metal-related Dutch industry, these guys combine knowledge and experience about (amongst others) galvanic corrosion. When I put the question to them they explained to me that a barrier coat of epoxy works like a isolator (or is it insulator?). So, what happens in their view if the bottom gets scratched upon the bare aluminum? Answer: with that kind of scratch there indeed are the two elements copper and aluminum submerged in electrolyte at that spot. But can a small current start flowing? The answer is no because there is no circuit. The epoxy in which the copper is embedded in the coppercoat-product is non conductive. I asked why everybody discourages using copper-containing antifouling on alu hulls? Answer: it all depends on 1) the conductivity of the epoxy and 2) the way the (perhaps conductive) ntifouling is applied onto the bare aluminum. When conductive aluminum is applied on a bare alu hull and the hull suffers a deep scratch, there is a circuit in which current will flow and the aluminum will start sacrificing itself. Despite the copper-powder contained in the Coppercoat-epoxy, it is said to be non conductive. This can easily be tested. I am tempted I must say. The advantages are proven effectiveness in anti-fouling When you sand it lightly once a year you replace the outside copper- oxide with new copper so it stays effective longlasting cause it's a very hard layer (it can be scrubbed without losing it). I know, this is a subject that you cant take lightly. But when the product is non-conductive, why should I stay away from it? The majority of answers I get here says: stay away, don't take the risk. But can you explain to me why there is a risk? What exact situation do you refer to when you say galvanic corrosion will occur? Thanks, I'm looking forward to your replies. Len. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Everything I have ever read says no to copper paint on aluminum hulls. One scrape of the > hull that bares aluminum and problems begin. After all of the work putting a boat together > why take a chance in the end with paint that could ruin the project. > Have a look at "E-Paint" systems. They have an informative web site. They are totally safe > for aluminum. Are used by the US Navy and Coast Guard for all of their aluminum craft > even their high speed boats. The paint releases hydrogen peroxide to prevent fouling. > Sixteen pounds of paint for $232 US. > There are also some great articles on the web by Michael Kasten re painting aluminum > hulls. He does not recommend copper. > He has some really excellent essays on aluminum building and corrosion protection. He > endorses frameless building as per BS boats. He also has good ideas re Zinc placement, > wiring, bonding (or not bonding) etc. > Roland, u should look at his article re prepping steel and painting steel. Some good ideas. > He recommends epoxy barrier coats for longevity and ease of maintenace. Less yard work, > more sailing. > I am going out to the Steele Coat Epoxy paint people on Friday for the paint for my > aluminum hull. I will let you know what the cost will be for a 36. I am going with 2 coats of > primer and 2 coats of paint. My brother and I will put it on with rollers. Fair and sand and > then hopefully polyurethane sprayed by a professional if I can find one that doesn't > overcharge. > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Darren Bos wrote: > > > > There was a review of coppercoat and other epoxy-copper antifouling systems in > Practical Boat Owner a couple of months back. Actually, there were two articles, one > month was the commercially applied copper-epoxy products and the subsequent issue > had an article on the products to be applied by the home user. Copper-epoxy systems > seem to be more popular in England than they are here. Apparently they can be used on > aluminum unlike traditional antifouling paints. Usually the hull is given an epoxy barrier > coat without the copper powder and then several subsequent coats of epoxy and copper. > Apparently the epoxy barrier coat, and the fact that the copper is in spheres both act to > help prevent galvanic corrosion. However, I have no experience with the product. > > > > Darren > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: edward_stoneuk > > Date: Wednesday, June 7, 2006 0:47 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Coppercoat > > > > > Len, > > > I shouldn't think that anyone here has coppercoated an aluminium > > > hull. I hope not. The aluminium will suffer galvanic corrosion. > > > Copper antifouling data sheets state that it should not be used on > > > an > > > aluminium or zinc/galvanised substrate. You can Google galvanic > > > corrosion to get more information. > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11104|11092|2006-06-08 08:58:18|edward_stoneuk|Re: Coppercoat|Len, That is interesting information about the copper in epoxy antifouling. My info related to usual antifouling containing copper. The data sheets for that state not to be used on aluminium or zinc treated sub strates. I take the point about the copper being insulated from the substrate by the non conductive epoxy. There is a concern I guess about a scratch forcing the two metals into contact with each other although whether there would be enough metal in contact to be a problem is a moot point. I had thought about using epoxy copper coat on our boats zinga coated bottom but had shied off because of galvanic concerns. I might look at it again now. The problem is that it is still a fairly new product. There may not be enough aluminium or zinc coated boats that have been coppercoated and had a severe enough collision to push the copper up against the substrate and reported it to have good information. I guess the manufacturers or research bodies might have done tests though. Isn't copper antifouling banned in some Nederlands waters? Regards, Ted| 11105|11062|2006-06-08 13:01:17|Alfredo Nannetti|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Perfect, thanks Ted. Thats means that the solder between the alloy (tin and lead) and brass is solid enough for joining the sheet even where they are forced by the tensions? alfredo > Alfredo, > > I think solder is saldatura in Italian. It is an alloy of tin (Sn) > and lead (Pb)and used to join electrical and electronic wiring. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> Everything you need is one click away.  Make > Yahoo! your home page now. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/AHchtC/4FxNAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11106|11062|2006-06-08 13:32:42|khooper_fboats|Re: 45' Tanton Origami|Still working on modeling this, once I get it finished off I'm going to upload Quicktime VR files to a web site so people can grab a 3D image of the model and spin it arond to look at it. We produce these all the time with jewelry so all the workflow for VR files is already in place... This model has been one evening building the topsides and two weeks dinking around with the transom. We've spent a bit of time getting it right. I have learned a lotfrom this model. If you're considering building an origami vessel I highly recommend building a model, and not from paper. Do it in some stiff material (the aluminum roof flashing is working for the topsides but not the transom, need something really substantial there to take and hold a contour, I went back to the 1/16" aluminum sheet). From looking at pictures of build sequence and perhaps from watching Alex's excellent DVD, you would think that pulling the hull sides together involves the most muscle and tension. Lots of ratcheting and pounding and clanking of chains. But actually that stuff comes together easily, at least at my current scale. Where the stresses are concentrated is at the transom, there is really a vast amount of force working against you as you try to get the stern to take shape. Also the bilges are flatter than you might think and it's easy to make them oil-can. I can see why the twin keels will need a lot of transverse reinforcement. This may be less true in the shorter boats. --Ken| 11107|11095|2006-06-08 15:01:04|brentswain38|Re: small origami hull|Plans for the 26 are $200 US. It's the smallest design I have. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Helmut Schlager" wrote: > > > hi all, > > is anywhere somewhat as a study plan for brent`s 26 footer? > is the price from 200$ (canadian?) for the plan still ok? > is there any smaller design (about 20 feet, motorship, motorsailer) > around? > > helmut > | 11108|11084|2006-06-08 15:06:32|brentswain38|Re: replate|Those stainless beer kegs that you find in scrapyards make trouble free chain lockers and they can be welded one on top of the other to get a bigger locker. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 02:45:18AM -0000, sv2gether wrote: > > I bought a Roberts Spray 36C ten years ago. I have some serious rust > > in the chain/rode locker and small places elsewhere. I am intriged > > with the origami method and would like to replace my horse-ribbed > > hull and also keel areas using this method, but I "see" some possible > > problems (peeling away the foamed steel "skin" and the attachments to > > the interior. Anyone done this? I am purposely keeping this message > > simple. And yes,I did live aboard for 5 years and sail....motored > > the East Coast,Bahamas, Florida Keys. > > I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm not sure that what you're > describing can be done at all. I just recently had the bottom of > "Ulysses" (a 34' Petersen Gouwzee) replated, and the new plate went over > the old - after sandblasting and removal of any previous patches, that > is. The problem is that the hull plates are part of the load-bearing > framework; you can't just remove it and expect whatever is left to > continue standing. In fact, when a large patched area just in front of > my keel was "stripped" of its patches, exposing a large void, the bow > began to sag (!) - we had to move pretty quickly with a jackstand to > prevent it from causing damage to the rest of the hull. Nowadays, that > area sports a 1/4" plate carried from the front of the keel onto the bow > - and the stem is reinforced by a piece of 3/4" solid square bar. > "Ulysses" probably gained pretty close to 1500lbs. from the replating, > but I've never been a speed fiend anyway - and she started out at > 29,500lbs in the first place. > > It may be worth your while to open up access to your chain locker by > cutting in from the side and dealing with whatever you find; that may be > a lot simpler than replating (which, as I can tell you from personal > experience, is no cakewalk.) The small places can be handled with > patches, of course. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > | 11109|11087|2006-06-08 15:11:03|brentswain38|Re: stern bearing/shaft tube|There is no need to machine anything on a stern tube. I never have . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > After doing a little research on the shaft tube for a 1" shaft I came up with details for it and it calls for 1-7/8" OD tube, 3/16" wall and then machine one end to 1-3/4" OD to accsept the stuffing box hose. This came from what I call old school method, traditional building plans for steel > Is there a newer better method or is it still done the same way? > Thanks for any info and have a good weekend > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11110|11092|2006-06-08 16:02:45|Len den Besten|Re: Coppercoat|edward_stoneuk wrote: -----snip---------- >There is a concern I guess about a scratch forcing the two metals >into contact with each other although whether there would be enough >metal in contact to be a problem is a moot point. (.........) >The problem is that it is still a fairly new product. >There may not be enough aluminium or zinc coated boats that have >been coppercoated and had a severe enough collision to push the >copper up against the substrate and reported it to have good >information. I guess the manufacturers or research bodies might >have done tests though. In my view there is very little copper to actually touch the alu, even when pressed together with force. When you take an ohmmeter and measure resistance between two spots on the coppercoat, even when they are only an inch apart, you measure zero conductivity. The copper will also turn into copperoxide very soon. But in all cases I will be inspecting my hull regularly. Before I definitely decide if I will be using Coppercoat I will do a test: I will paint a piece of bare alu (without an intermediate epoxy, just coppercoat), make several deep scratches and hammer some points with a big hammer and submerge it into salt water. When these scratches and hammered spots still show healthy alu and no galvanic corrosion in june '07, I will take the plunge.... >Isn't copper antifouling banned in some Nederlands waters? You're well informed. It has been for a while. But in a court of law the judge said there is no substantial ground for such a ban / there are no alternatives. I don't know the fine details but coppercontaining antifouloing is allowed again, for the time being. Fair winds, Len [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11111|11092|2006-06-08 17:09:14|khooper_fboats|Re: Coppercoat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Len den Besten wrote: > >Isn't copper antifouling banned in some Nederlands waters? > You're well informed. It has been for a while. But in a court of law the judge said there is no substantial ground for such a ban / there are no alternatives. Are there not? I wonder about mixing some sodium percarbonate in with cheap top coat and see if it doesn't work as a low cost anti-foul. I also wonder about no anti-foul at all, beaching the boat once a month and hitting it with a pressure washer. Copper does kill reef fish at infintesimal concentrations whether there is an alternative that satisfies the Dutch courts or not. Go ahead and flame me, tomorrow's Friday and I don't care. =^)| 11112|11092|2006-06-08 17:33:12|Earl|Re: Coppercoat|----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" Len den Besten wrote: > >Isn't copper antifouling banned in some Nederlands waters? > You're well informed. It has been for a while. But in a court of law the judge said there is no substantial ground for such a ban / there are no alternatives. Are there not? I wonder about mixing some sodium percarbonate in with cheap top coat and see if it doesn't work as a low cost anti-foul. Seems simple enough to test; put the proposed mix on a small piece of wood and hang it off a pier (in the water) I also wonder about no anti-foul at all, beaching the boat once a month and hitting it with a pressure washer. Copper does kill reef fish at infintesimal concentrations whether there is an alternative that satisfies the Dutch courts or not. Go ahead and flame me, tomorrow's Friday and I don't care. =^) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11113|11092|2006-06-08 18:53:55|khooper_fboats|Re: Coppercoat|> Seems simple enough to test; put the proposed mix on a small piece of wood and hang it off a pier (in the water) Nearest salt water to me is 397.6 miles. This one is going to have to wait a bit if I do it. =^)| 11114|11092|2006-06-09 05:34:10|Earl|Re: Coppercoat|The following links may be of interest; may be some conflict at this one (not the purest of intentions): Possibly less biased: If your time line is long, perhaps there may be more information or better products available. I know that anti-fouling paints were unheard of in my youth. From: "khooper_fboats" Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 6:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Coppercoat > Seems simple enough to test; put the proposed mix on a small piece of wood and hang it off a pier (in the water) Nearest salt water to me is 397.6 miles. This one is going to have to wait a bit if I do it. =^) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 11115|11092|2006-06-09 06:15:38|cirejay|Re: Coppercoat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl" wrote: > I know that anti-fouling paints were unheard of in my > youth. > Earl, You have a few years on you then:-). Red lead has been around a heck of a long time. eric S/V Nebaras| 11117|11092|2006-06-09 14:34:15|Earl|Re: Coppercoat|From: "cirejay" > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl" wrote: > > > I know that anti-fouling paints were unheard of in my > > youth. > > > > Earl, > > You have a few years on you then:-). Red lead has been around a heck > of a long time. > > eric S/V Nebaras Gosh, and all those years stupid people were using it as an iron and/or steel primer instead of an anti-fouling bottom bottom paint....;} And, yes, I do have some years on me.| 11120|11092|2006-06-09 15:53:24|cirejay|Re: Coppercoat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl" wrote: > > > From: "cirejay" > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earl" wrote: > > > > > I know that anti-fouling paints were unheard of in my > > > youth. > > > > > > > Earl, > > > > You have a few years on you then:-). Red lead has been around a heck > > of a long time. > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > Gosh, and all those years stupid people were using it as an iron and/or > steel primer instead of an anti-fouling bottom bottom paint....;} > > And, yes, I do have some years on me. I'll say you do. Coast Guard's 1923 regs references the use of antifouling paints of various brands. eric S/V Nebaras| 11121|9840|2006-06-11 21:29:33|tom|BS 26|Hello All I've been working on the inside of the boat here lately and I have a few keel braces in , I managed to catch the light just right for an inside picture of it and its posted in origamiboats2 . I think what I am going to do on the cabin layout is raise the V berth some so it can stay more forward and still be 7' long then put in a rap around couch- sate just behind the V berth with the compression post in the middle and drop leaf table, it should come out about 5'-6"x 5'-6" just big enough for 4 people to set . then to starboard the head or WC , little small but will work 36" long x 30" wide with about 5' headroom. across to port the small galley then quarter berths about 6'-4" long . I am hoping I can fit in a hanging locker about a foot wide somewhere. This is about the best I can come up with keeping the inside open, comfortable and functional for the limited space available. I finally made a decision on inboard engine some of you are going to think I'm nuts but I am using the atomic 4 , I like it because at 310 pounds its 30 Hp more than enough to push the 26 at hull speed and they are very reliable . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11122|9840|2006-06-12 01:16:49|cirejay|Re: BS 26|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I've been working on the inside of the boat here lately and I have a few keel braces in , I managed to catch the light just right for an inside picture of it and its posted in origamiboats2 . > I think what I am going to do on the cabin layout is raise the V berth some so it can stay more forward and still be 7' long then put in a rap around couch- sate just behind the V berth with the compression post in the middle and drop leaf table, it should come out about 5'-6"x 5'-6" just big enough for 4 people to set . then to starboard the head or WC , little small but will work 36" long x >30" wide with about 5' headroom. Heck, the head seems huge to me. We're renovating a small townhouse and the powder room is only 34" X 60". When my other mentioned how small it would be I told her it was a lot larger than any head I had ever had on my boats. >across to port the small galley then quarter berths about 6'-4" long . I am hoping I can fit in a hanging locker about a foot wide somewhere. This is about the best I can come up with keeping the inside open, comfortable and functional for the limited space available. I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? > I finally made a decision on inboard engine some of you are going to think I'm nuts but I am using the atomic 4 , I like it because at 310 pounds its 30 Hp more than enough to push the 26 at >hull speed and they are very reliable. Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even rebuild a used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 lunger would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better on consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, I'd do anything I could to talk you out of gas. eric, S/V Nebaras| 11124|11124|2006-06-12 15:25:27|apples0_17|Has anyone got any plans for a small tender or aluminum dinghy?|Has anyone got any plans for a small tender or aluminum dinghy? I would like to have a go at making a small dinghy out of alloy, say 8- 10ft long. Does anyone have any plans for something like this? Preferab;ly in computer format so that I can cut it out on my CNC plasma cutter. Cheers, Peter Australia| 11125|11125|2006-06-12 16:04:03|brazilnutboat|Aluminum or steel?|I am thinking of building the 31 ft cruiser of Brent Swain's design, but I haven't yet settled on which material to build with. I am leaning toward aluminum for a number of reasons. If I build it out of aluminum, can I add extra weight in lead to the keel? I'm not really interested in making the overall weight any less (12,000 pounds seems about right for 26 ft LWL cruising yacht), but the extra weight in the keel should give it better stability. Am I off course here? The other thing is the price. I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel when you factor in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. Is this the case? I like the idea of low maintenance and thus unpainted aluminum has a certain appeal. Finally, do the Swain 31 plans have to be modified in any way for aluminum construction (aside from the things mentioned in Brent's book)? I'd really love to hear from someone who built the Swain 31 in aluminum (or steel) to set me straight on these things. Thanks, Mark| 11126|11124|2006-06-12 20:42:11|khooper_fboats|Re: Has anyone got any plans for a small tender or aluminum dinghy?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "apples0_17" wrote: > > Has anyone got any plans for a small tender or aluminum dinghy? Brent's book has a pattern for an origami dingy. Skene's _Elements_ has plans for a fine looking 12' flat bottomed dory that looks like it would work out well in metal. --Ken| 11127|11084|2006-06-12 21:10:49|sv2gether|Re: replate|Thanks for the info, Ben. Now I will certainly go slowly and do a lot of bracing. And be in more of a cautious type mode. sv2gether --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 02:45:18AM -0000, sv2gether wrote: > > I bought a Roberts Spray 36C ten years ago. I have some serious rust > > in the chain/rode locker and small places elsewhere. I am intriged > > with the origami method and would like to replace my horse-ribbed > > hull and also keel areas using this method, but I "see" some possible > > problems (peeling away the foamed steel "skin" and the attachments to > > the interior. Anyone done this? I am purposely keeping this message > > simple. And yes,I did live aboard for 5 years and sail....motored > > the East Coast,Bahamas, Florida Keys. > > I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm not sure that what you're > describing can be done at all. I just recently had the bottom of > "Ulysses" (a 34' Petersen Gouwzee) replated, and the new plate went over > the old - after sandblasting and removal of any previous patches, that > is. The problem is that the hull plates are part of the load- bearing > framework; you can't just remove it and expect whatever is left to > continue standing. In fact, when a large patched area just in front of > my keel was "stripped" of its patches, exposing a large void, the bow > began to sag (!) - we had to move pretty quickly with a jackstand to > prevent it from causing damage to the rest of the hull. Nowadays, that > area sports a 1/4" plate carried from the front of the keel onto the bow > - and the stem is reinforced by a piece of 3/4" solid square bar. > "Ulysses" probably gained pretty close to 1500lbs. from the replating, > but I've never been a speed fiend anyway - and she started out at > 29,500lbs in the first place. > > It may be worth your while to open up access to your chain locker by > cutting in from the side and dealing with whatever you find; that may be > a lot simpler than replating (which, as I can tell you from personal > experience, is no cakewalk.) The small places can be handled with > patches, of course. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > | 11128|9840|2006-06-12 22:35:05|tom|Re: BS 26|I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? Hello Eric I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try this weekend when I have a little more time. Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even rebuild a used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 lunger would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better on consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, I'd do anything I could to talk you out of gas. Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot longer than a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, then lookout but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper maintinace it will be fine. I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the engine easy just in case it doesnt work out as planed. This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine compartment, I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions Tom To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 11129|11125|2006-06-13 03:42:24|Gerd|Re: Aluminum or steel?|Mark, there has been a LOT of discussion here about alloy versus steel, just check out the archieves, there is enough to keep you reading for a month ;-) For stability: all other things being equal, replacing the hull and deck with lighter material will lower the CG and already increase stability, so it would not make much sense to add ballast. Actually, doing so might give you too much of it, and possibly result in a very uncomfatbale boat. What you would rather get is more load carrying capacity for a same displacement with he boat on it's lines. But: In all cases, consult Brent on that first! My personal take on that: Alloy makes more sense if the boat was originally designed for it, because you then have (and probably want) a lighter boat to begin with - and you would actually end up with LESS ballast for the same stability curve. If I would want to build my own Yago out of alloy, I would want to redesign the hull to adjust all parameters for a slightly lower displacement and still win on load carrying. Otherwise, I think it's very much a question of personal taste, equipment & conditions for building and havig the higher sttart up cash for alloy. Gerd http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" wrote: > > I am thinking of building the 31 ft cruiser of Brent Swain's design, > but I haven't yet settled on which material to build with. I am leaning > toward aluminum for a number of reasons. If I build it out of aluminum, > can I add extra weight in lead to the keel? I'm not really interested > in making the overall weight any less (12,000 pounds seems about right > for 26 ft LWL cruising yacht), but the extra weight in the keel should > give it better stability. Am I off course here? The other thing is the > price. I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel when you factor > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. Is this the case? I > like the idea of low maintenance and thus unpainted aluminum has a > certain appeal. Finally, do the Swain 31 plans have to be modified in > any way for aluminum construction (aside from the things mentioned in > Brent's book)? I'd really love to hear from someone who built the Swain > 31 in aluminum (or steel) to set me straight on these things. Thanks, > Mark > | 11130|11125|2006-06-13 11:54:19|khooper_fboats|Re: Aluminum or steel?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" wrote: > I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel > when you factor > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. I think all the people who say this posit extremely expensive coating systems for the steel and repaints at frequent intervals. It may well be possible to do it much more cheaply than Kasten or Dashew might suppose for the sake of argument. With aluminum you will have to increase thickness of the material by 50%, then pay four times as much per pound of material, and if you don't live on a coast you will not be able to get marine alloy locally and will have to have it trucked in. Also you are deliberately building a boat that is overly stiff so you might have your rig torn off frequently unless you spec significantly stronger, more expensive rigging (however to be fair you could build a boat with too much ballast in steel too so it is not fair to attribute that cost to alloy construction alone). I wanted to build in alloy too but if you're frugal enough to end up here in the first place you probably can't justify aluminum in economic terms. I couldn't and I did a lot of math trying. But I have not actually built anything yet so wtf do I know. --Ken| 11131|11125|2006-06-13 15:00:49|brentswain38|Re: Aluminum or steel?|Aluminium in the sun gets hot enough to burn your skin off if you touch it, so has to be painted for hot climates.Not a problem in Norway.In Tonga ,I had to paint the bottom of my aluminium dinghy white so I wouldn't burn my feet . A couple with a bare aluminium boaters there felt like they were living in a sauna and had to be careful where they put their bare feet.Bare aluminium can turn your clothes black where you rub against it. A friend who builds aluminium boats said that the only realy reliable way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it. The cost of steel coatings is a fraction the price of aluminium, and my original epoxy is 22 years old and in perfect shape, except where it has been chipped. My mainteneance is around an hour or two a year. It's getting extremely hard to find antifouling which won't eat aluminium with electrolysis. Ditto electrically hot marinas. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" > wrote: > > > I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel > > when you factor > > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. > > I think all the people who say this posit extremely expensive coating > systems for the steel and repaints at frequent intervals. It may well > be possible to do it much more cheaply than Kasten or Dashew might > suppose for the sake of argument. > > With aluminum you will have to increase thickness of the material by > 50%, then pay four times as much per pound of material, and if you > don't live on a coast you will not be able to get marine alloy locally > and will have to have it trucked in. > > Also you are deliberately building a boat that is overly stiff so you > might have your rig torn off frequently unless you spec significantly > stronger, more expensive rigging (however to be fair you could build a > boat with too much ballast in steel too so it is not fair to attribute > that cost to alloy construction alone). > > I wanted to build in alloy too but if you're frugal enough to end up > here in the first place you probably can't justify aluminum in > economic terms. I couldn't and I did a lot of math trying. > > But I have not actually built anything yet so wtf do I know. > > --Ken > | 11132|11125|2006-06-14 10:49:44|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum or steel?|Ask Kasten how many boats he's actually built... or even that have been built to his designs....how many are actually in the water... He writes a fine article. There are thousands of aluminum boats out there in the water. In your locale no doubt there are some that are being used commercially. If you really want to know what works, go spend some time with the guys actually out there in the water. They are making 'bang for buck' decisions on a daily basis. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" > wrote: > > > I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel > > when you factor > > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. > > I think all the people who say this posit extremely expensive coating > systems for the steel and repaints at frequent intervals. It may well > be possible to do it much more cheaply than Kasten or Dashew might > suppose for the sake of argument. > > With aluminum you will have to increase thickness of the material by > 50%, then pay four times as much per pound of material, and if you > don't live on a coast you will not be able to get marine alloy locally > and will have to have it trucked in. > > Also you are deliberately building a boat that is overly stiff so you > might have your rig torn off frequently unless you spec significantly > stronger, more expensive rigging (however to be fair you could build a > boat with too much ballast in steel too so it is not fair to attribute > that cost to alloy construction alone). > > I wanted to build in alloy too but if you're frugal enough to end up > here in the first place you probably can't justify aluminum in > economic terms. I couldn't and I did a lot of math trying. > > But I have not actually built anything yet so wtf do I know. > > --Ken > | 11133|11133|2006-06-14 16:50:49|joeearsley|Quantity of Welding Rod|Does anyone have a rough quantity of rod used to build a BS 36?| 11134|9840|2006-06-14 17:09:11|mickeyolaf|Re: BS 26|You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool an exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the engine room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft main bulkhead. The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water intake. If the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain via the clamshells. Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I would guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water I would have to say " Houston we have a problem". One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher keeps the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where it could become annoying when tiller steering. I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room sealed then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air available. I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of the blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am still hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a win. I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. Filtering would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't need one. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? > > Hello Eric > I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try this weekend > when I have a little more time. > > > > > Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even rebuild a > used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 lunger > would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better on > consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, I'd do > anything I could to talk you out of gas. > > > Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot longer than > a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, then lookout > but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper maintinace it > will be fine. > I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the engine easy > just in case it doesnt work out as planed. > This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine compartment, > I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via > clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like > the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths > so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso > anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > Tom > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > | 11135|11135|2006-06-14 17:14:33|joeearsley|Welding Rod|Sorry, I wasn't clear. I would like to know how much welding rod is needed.| 11136|11135|2006-06-14 20:53:54|tom|Re: Welding Rod|I cant say for sure on the 36 but I would say start with at least a 50 pound box, 5 and 10 pound boxes are pricey and you will go threw it quick, Ive probably used 30 pounds on my 26 and I still have a lot left to weld Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "joeearsley" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rod Sorry, I wasn't clear. I would like to know how much welding rod is needed. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 11137|9840|2006-06-16 00:33:21|peter_d_wiley|Re: BS 26|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via > clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like > the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths > so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso > anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions It's been done. One of my books has a design for just such a thing and it looks both workable and pretty easy to fabricate. In essence you have a tube in a tube with the outer tube having holes to allow in air, the inner tube piercing the deck. All welded to a doubler plate which is welded/bolted to the hull. I thought it was a pretty neat design. PDW| 11138|9840|2006-06-16 07:49:41|Courtney Thomas|Re: BS 26|Does it have some sort of slide on the base plate to close it and how close the the top does the inner tube come ? Thanks, Courtney peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > >>I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via >>clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like >>the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths >>so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso >>anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > > > It's been done. One of my books has a design for just such a thing and it looks both workable > and pretty easy to fabricate. In essence you have a tube in a tube with the outer tube having > holes to allow in air, the inner tube piercing the deck. All welded to a doubler plate which is > welded/bolted to the hull. I thought it was a pretty neat design. > > PDW > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11139|11139|2006-06-16 19:32:37|Alex Christie|Brent Swain 40 footer plans for sale -- $100 discount|Up for Grabs! I'm selling my unused BS 40 foot steel boat plans (I built the 36 footer) for $400, which is $100 off of regular price from Brent. Shipping would be at cost, to wherever you are. The plans are in good condition, just mildly weathered looking from various ponderings and unfoldings over a few years. Anyone interested can contact me directly at achristie@... Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11140|9840|2006-06-17 09:20:15|tom|Re: BS 26|Hello Mickey Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of air flow. Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small outboard in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an inboard in the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the vents, shift linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the inboard is creating a problem, I am going to rethink this a bit Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > > You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool an > exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the engine > room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft > main bulkhead. > The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water intake. If > the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot > house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and > protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain > via the clamshells. > Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I would > guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water I > would have to say " Houston we have a problem". > One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher keeps > the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where it > could become annoying when tiller steering. > I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the > engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then > closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room sealed > then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air > available. > I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via > moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of the > blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am still > hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife > yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a win. > I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and > don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. Filtering > would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't need > one. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? >> >> Hello Eric >> I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try > this weekend >> when I have a little more time. >> >> >> >> >> Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even rebuild > a >> used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 lunger >> would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better on >> consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, I'd do >> anything I could to talk you out of gas. >> >> >> Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot > longer than >> a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, > then lookout >> but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper > maintinace it >> will be fine. >> I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the > engine easy >> just in case it doesnt work out as planed. >> This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine > compartment, >> I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the > transom via >> clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I > dont like >> the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the > quarter berths >> so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes > allso >> anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11141|9840|2006-06-17 17:28:53|mickeyolaf|Re: BS 26|I was originally going to build a steel Tom Thumb 24, a Graham Shannon design. It had a great layout for 24. I then looked at Brents 26 but eventually went for his 36 just to get liveaboard room for 2. I should have compromised with the 30 as I am finding the 36 expensive to put together. You might want to look at the TTh 24 for it's interior design plus you have an extra 2 feet to work with. It had a diesel which didn't seem to compromise too much space. A little internet searching should come up with the old plan for it. The downside of outboards is battery charging. Yamaha has a 9.9 hp longshaft putting out 13 amps but most OB's generate five which won't keep a bank up. My last sailboat had an outboard and it was loud when sitting in the cockpit ( I wore earplugs on long runs) and useless charging batteries. The new four strokes are much quieter. I like the down in the keel fuel tank for the diesel. I wouldn't want gasoline in an integral tank in a sailboat so I would end up with a five gallon outboard tank in the cockpit. Gasoline tanks and their fuel lines inside a sailboat makes me nervous. I think somewhere in Nova Scotia a family is still building TTh 24's in steel. I haven't looked lately on the net to see. They used to advertise their steel hulls/u finish so u shoulod be able to find the interior layout pretty easy. It was well thought out. Another really well done 24 is the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20. Alot of boat in a small space. Good interiors both with I/B diesels. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Mickey > Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of air flow. > Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small outboard > in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an inboard in > the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the vents, shift > linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the inboard is > creating a problem, I am going to rethink this a bit > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > > > > > > You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool an > > exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the engine > > room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft > > main bulkhead. > > The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water intake. If > > the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot > > house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and > > protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain > > via the clamshells. > > Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I would > > guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water I > > would have to say " Houston we have a problem". > > One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher keeps > > the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where it > > could become annoying when tiller steering. > > I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the > > engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then > > closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room sealed > > then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air > > available. > > I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via > > moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of the > > blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am still > > hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife > > yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a win. > > I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and > > don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. Filtering > > would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't need > > one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? > >> > >> Hello Eric > >> I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try > > this weekend > >> when I have a little more time. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even rebuild > > a > >> used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 lunger > >> would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better on > >> consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, I'd do > >> anything I could to talk you out of gas. > >> > >> > >> Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot > > longer than > >> a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, > > then lookout > >> but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper > > maintinace it > >> will be fine. > >> I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the > > engine easy > >> just in case it doesnt work out as planed. > >> This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine > > compartment, > >> I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the > > transom via > >> clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I > > dont like > >> the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the > > quarter berths > >> so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes > > allso > >> anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > >> Tom > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11142|9840|2006-06-17 17:36:44|mickeyolaf|Re: BS 26|I looked on the net and Bruce Roberts is marketing the TTh 24 and a larger 26 on his web site. I always liked Shannon's (who originally designed her) interior. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I was originally going to build a steel Tom Thumb 24, a Graham > Shannon design. It had a great layout for 24. I then looked at > Brents 26 but eventually went for his 36 just to get liveaboard room > for 2. I should have compromised with the 30 as I am finding the 36 > expensive to put together. > You might want to look at the TTh 24 for it's interior design plus > you have an extra 2 feet to work with. It had a diesel which didn't > seem to compromise too much space. A little internet searching > should come up with the old plan for it. > The downside of outboards is battery charging. Yamaha has a 9.9 hp > longshaft putting out 13 amps but most OB's generate five which > won't keep a bank up. My last sailboat had an outboard and it was > loud when sitting in the cockpit ( I wore earplugs on long runs) and > useless charging batteries. The new four strokes are much quieter. > I like the down in the keel fuel tank for the diesel. I wouldn't > want gasoline in an integral tank in a sailboat so I would end up > with a five gallon outboard tank in the cockpit. Gasoline tanks and > their fuel lines inside a sailboat makes me nervous. > I think somewhere in Nova Scotia a family is still building TTh 24's > in steel. I haven't looked lately on the net to see. They used to > advertise their steel hulls/u finish so u shoulod be able to find > the interior layout pretty easy. It was well thought out. Another > really well done 24 is the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20. Alot of boat > in a small space. Good interiors both with I/B diesels. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > Hello Mickey > > Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of > air flow. > > Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small > outboard > > in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an > inboard in > > the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the > vents, shift > > linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the > inboard is > > creating a problem, I am going to rethink this a bit > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "mickeyolaf" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:05 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > > > > > > > > > > You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool > an > > > exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the > engine > > > room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft > > > main bulkhead. > > > The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water > intake. If > > > the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot > > > house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and > > > protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain > > > via the clamshells. > > > Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I > would > > > guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water > I > > > would have to say " Houston we have a problem". > > > One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher > keeps > > > the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where > it > > > could become annoying when tiller steering. > > > I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the > > > engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then > > > closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room > sealed > > > then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air > > > available. > > > I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via > > > moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of > the > > > blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am > still > > > hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife > > > yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a > win. > > > I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and > > > don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. > Filtering > > > would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't > need > > > one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? > > >> > > >> Hello Eric > > >> I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try > > > this weekend > > >> when I have a little more time. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even > rebuild > > > a > > >> used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 > lunger > > >> would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better > on > > >> consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, > I'd do > > >> anything I could to talk you out of gas. > > >> > > >> > > >> Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot > > > longer than > > >> a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, > > > then lookout > > >> but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper > > > maintinace it > > >> will be fine. > > >> I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the > > > engine easy > > >> just in case it doesnt work out as planed. > > >> This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine > > > compartment, > > >> I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the > > > transom via > > >> clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I > > > dont like > > >> the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the > > > quarter berths > > >> so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as > intakes > > > allso > > >> anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > > >> Tom > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11143|9840|2006-06-17 18:18:49|tom|Re: BS 26|Well I quit thinking about it and the stearn tube is in , still going inboard , just have to live with the vent hoses inside the cabin. I fuged the strearn tube a bit moved it back and up a bit and clearanced the cutout for a 10" prop. engine will be running at a 9 degree angle . everything is a comprimise but I figured it was better than hanging off the transom pulling the starter rope + like you said better charging system and the wife want s me to put in a hot water heater off the engine water, Well Im going back outside to do a little more welding , chat with you latter Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 >I was originally going to build a steel Tom Thumb 24, a Graham > Shannon design. It had a great layout for 24. I then looked at > Brents 26 but eventually went for his 36 just to get liveaboard room > for 2. I should have compromised with the 30 as I am finding the 36 > expensive to put together. > You might want to look at the TTh 24 for it's interior design plus > you have an extra 2 feet to work with. It had a diesel which didn't > seem to compromise too much space. A little internet searching > should come up with the old plan for it. > The downside of outboards is battery charging. Yamaha has a 9.9 hp > longshaft putting out 13 amps but most OB's generate five which > won't keep a bank up. My last sailboat had an outboard and it was > loud when sitting in the cockpit ( I wore earplugs on long runs) and > useless charging batteries. The new four strokes are much quieter. > I like the down in the keel fuel tank for the diesel. I wouldn't > want gasoline in an integral tank in a sailboat so I would end up > with a five gallon outboard tank in the cockpit. Gasoline tanks and > their fuel lines inside a sailboat makes me nervous. > I think somewhere in Nova Scotia a family is still building TTh 24's > in steel. I haven't looked lately on the net to see. They used to > advertise their steel hulls/u finish so u shoulod be able to find > the interior layout pretty easy. It was well thought out. Another > really well done 24 is the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20. Alot of boat > in a small space. Good interiors both with I/B diesels. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Mickey >> Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of > air flow. >> Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small > outboard >> in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an > inboard in >> the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the > vents, shift >> linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the > inboard is >> creating a problem, I am going to rethink this | 11144|9840|2006-06-17 21:54:05|tom|BS 26|Eric Mickey I found a drawing of the interior . heres the link http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat2/dsn-jmslb.html The demensions are quite a bit different but it will give you an idea of what I am doing. The engine is sticking into the cabin about 12" and if I keep the front of the engine box at about 10 degree leaning aft the ladder at the same angle, then I still have about 20" clear to sit on the end of the quarter berths, thats liveable. I finished welding up the stearn tube and prop cutout and posted a picture in origamiboats2 everything went pretty smooth, I found that vice grips work good for clamping it all together after useing the big bolt through the shaft line, one thing though when I first started clamping it together the metal at the upper spacer in the skeg started to kink so I stoped and cut out the spacer then it pulled together with no kinks and kept a nice shape. The stearn tube is actualy 1-1/2" sch 80 pipe measures 1-1/2" ID and 1-7/8" OD and I chucked it up in the lathe and machined it down to 1-3/4" OD on one end for the stuffing box hose. One question on skeg cooling is anyone putting drain plugs on them or do you just pump out what you can from the pickup tube? Everyone have a great Fathers Day Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11145|9840|2006-06-18 07:32:29|Courtney Thomas|Re: BS 26|Sure would like to learn how to contact the NS family building steel boats, if/when you find out ! Any idea what they cost ? Thank you, Courtney mickeyolaf wrote: > I was originally going to build a steel Tom Thumb 24, a Graham > Shannon design. It had a great layout for 24. I then looked at > Brents 26 but eventually went for his 36 just to get liveaboard room > for 2. I should have compromised with the 30 as I am finding the 36 > expensive to put together. > You might want to look at the TTh 24 for it's interior design plus > you have an extra 2 feet to work with. It had a diesel which didn't > seem to compromise too much space. A little internet searching > should come up with the old plan for it. > The downside of outboards is battery charging. Yamaha has a 9.9 hp > longshaft putting out 13 amps but most OB's generate five which > won't keep a bank up. My last sailboat had an outboard and it was > loud when sitting in the cockpit ( I wore earplugs on long runs) and > useless charging batteries. The new four strokes are much quieter. > I like the down in the keel fuel tank for the diesel. I wouldn't > want gasoline in an integral tank in a sailboat so I would end up > with a five gallon outboard tank in the cockpit. Gasoline tanks and > their fuel lines inside a sailboat makes me nervous. > I think somewhere in Nova Scotia a family is still building TTh 24's > in steel. I haven't looked lately on the net to see. They used to > advertise their steel hulls/u finish so u shoulod be able to find > the interior layout pretty easy. It was well thought out. Another > really well done 24 is the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20. Alot of boat > in a small space. Good interiors both with I/B diesels. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >>Hello Mickey >> Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of > > air flow. > >> Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small > > outboard > >>in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an > > inboard in > >>the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the > > vents, shift > >>linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the > > inboard is > >>creating a problem, I am going to rethink this a bit >> Tom >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "mickeyolaf" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:05 PM >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 >> >> >> >>>You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool > > an > >>>exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the > > engine > >>>room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft >>>main bulkhead. >>>The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water > > intake. If > >>>the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot >>>house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and >>>protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain >>>via the clamshells. >>>Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I > > would > >>>guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water > > I > >>>would have to say " Houston we have a problem". >>>One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher > > keeps > >>>the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where > > it > >>>could become annoying when tiller steering. >>>I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the >>>engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then >>>closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room > > sealed > >>>then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air >>>available. >>>I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via >>>moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of > > the > >>>blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am > > still > >>>hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife >>>yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a > > win. > >>>I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and >>>don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. > > Filtering > >>>would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't > > need > >>>one. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? >>>> >>>>Hello Eric >>>> I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try >>> >>>this weekend >>> >>>>when I have a little more time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even > > rebuild > >>>a >>> >>>>used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 > > lunger > >>>>would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better > > on > >>>>consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, > > I'd do > >>>>anything I could to talk you out of gas. >>>> >>>> >>>>Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot >>> >>>longer than >>> >>>>a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, >>> >>>then lookout >>> >>>>but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper >>> >>>maintinace it >>> >>>>will be fine. >>>>I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the >>> >>>engine easy >>> >>>>just in case it doesnt work out as planed. >>>> This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine >>> >>>compartment, >>> >>>>I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the >>> >>>transom via >>> >>>>clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I >>> >>>dont like >>> >>>>the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the >>> >>>quarter berths >>> >>>>so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as > > intakes > >>>allso >>> >>>>anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions >>>>Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11146|9840|2006-06-18 08:11:45|cirejay|Re: BS 26|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Eric Mickey > I found a drawing of the interior . heres the link > http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat2/dsn-jmslb.html > The demensions are quite a bit different but it will give you an idea of what I am doing. Tom, you may have mentioned it before but I've either forgotten or didn't see, how do you intend to use your boat (long term cruising, day sailing and short cruising, etc) and with what total onboard? I ask because I think that really impacts how one wants to layout the cabin. All in all, I still like the layout. eric S/V Nebaras| 11147|9840|2006-06-18 09:34:56|tom|Re: BS 26|Morning Eric I am setting this one up to be a trailer sailor, coastal cruising mainly. one or two week vacations on occasion but most of the time just 2 or 3 days. I am figuring around 20 gal water and 10 gal fuel with easy removable tanks for cleaning purposes Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "cirejay" To: Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Eric Mickey >> I found a drawing of the interior . heres the link >> http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat2/dsn-jmslb.html >> The demensions are quite a bit different but it will give you an idea > of what I am doing. > > Tom, you may have mentioned it before but I've either forgotten or > didn't see, how do you intend to use your boat (long term cruising, day > sailing and short cruising, etc) and with what total onboard? > > I ask because I think that really impacts how one wants to layout the > cabin. > > All in all, I still like the layout. > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11149|9840|2006-06-18 21:56:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: BS 26|I'll dig out the book and have another look. From memory tho, I don't think there was a slide to close the opening but there are lots of ways of addressing this depending on the interior room. The simplest that comes to mind is to have the inner pipe threaded and screw a cap over it. It'd stick down under the deck the length of the cap so might be a head bashing hazard depending on location. Probably ok for bitts as they're going to be near the hull. There are lots of ways to close the opening if you think it necessary. PDW > Does it have some sort of slide on the base plate to close it and how > close the the top does the inner tube come ? > > Thanks, > Courtney > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > > >>I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via > >>clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like > >>the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths > >>so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso > >>anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > > > > > > It's been done. One of my books has a design for just such a thing and it looks both workable > > and pretty easy to fabricate. In essence you have a tube in a tube with the outer tube having > > holes to allow in air, the inner tube piercing the deck. All welded to a doubler plate which is > > welded/bolted to the hull. I thought it was a pretty neat design. > > > > PDW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11150|11150|2006-06-19 01:04:10|vishnubaiju|Long line Fishing Boat|I am looking for thLooking for NEW 1) 30-35 m Mother/ Collector vessel to carry fresh tuna caught from small pole and line boats. The LOADED draught should not be more than 1.70m The BRIEF spec Length Over All : 30 to 35 m Breadth : 8 to 10 m Depth : to suit the capacity and draft Draft Maximum:1.70 m Main engine : 600 to 700 H.P Freezer : At - 60 degrees C 300 Kg/Hr freezing Fish hold capacity : 70 tonnes at - 60 DEGREE C for Sashimi grade tuna Speed : 10 to 12 knots Crew : 12 persons 2) Long liner cum gillnetter vessel Length overall : 25.0 to 30.0 m Cruising speed : 10 knots Breadth : 7.0 to 9.0 m Depth : 3.0 m Freeboard : Minimum - To suit Long Lining Draft, Maximum :1.70 m Main engine : 600 to 700 H.P Freezer : At - 60 O C 350 kg/hour Fish hold capacity : More than 50 tonnes at - 40 O C for Sashimi grade tuna Bait tanks : 10 m3 Chill tanks : Two, each 10 m3 Cost and time of construction are requested from interested.| 11151|9840|2006-06-19 07:23:12|Courtney Thomas|Re: BS 26|Thanks and how close to the top of the outer does the inner tube come ? Cordially, Courtney peter_d_wiley wrote: > I'll dig out the book and have another look. From memory tho, I don't think there was a > slide to close the opening but there are lots of ways of addressing this depending on the > interior room. The simplest that comes to mind is to have the inner pipe threaded and > screw a cap over it. It'd stick down under the deck the length of the cap so might be a > head bashing hazard depending on location. Probably ok for bitts as they're going to be > near the hull. There are lots of ways to close the opening if you think it necessary. > > PDW > > >>Does it have some sort of slide on the base plate to close it and how >>close the the top does the inner tube come ? >> >>Thanks, >>Courtney >> >> >>peter_d_wiley wrote: >> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via >>>>clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like >>>>the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths >>>>so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso >>>>anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions >>> >>> >>>It's been done. One of my books has a design for just such a thing and it looks both > > workable > >>>and pretty easy to fabricate. In essence you have a tube in a tube with the outer tube > > having > >>>holes to allow in air, the inner tube piercing the deck. All welded to a doubler plate > > which is > >>>welded/bolted to the hull. I thought it was a pretty neat design. >>> >>>PDW >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11152|9840|2006-06-19 17:30:53|brentswain38|Re: BS 26|It sounds like real gymnastics to get into that v berth. With the web and pipes from the inside deck edges to the chine, you don't need a support pipe in the middle. I did a swing out table in the middle which can be swung to one side at night, making the V berth much more easily reached. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I've been working on the inside of the boat here lately and I have a few keel braces in , I managed to catch the light just right for an inside picture of it and its posted in origamiboats2 . > I think what I am going to do on the cabin layout is raise the V berth some so it can stay more forward and still be 7' long then put in a rap around couch- sate just behind the V berth with the compression post in the middle and drop leaf table, it should come out about 5'-6"x 5'-6" just big enough for 4 people to set . then to starboard the head or WC , little small but will work 36" long x 30" wide with about 5' headroom. across to port the small galley then quarter berths about 6'-4" long . I am hoping I can fit in a hanging locker about a foot wide somewhere. This is about the best I can come up with keeping the inside open, comfortable and functional for the limited space available. > I finally made a decision on inboard engine some of you are going to think I'm nuts but I am using the atomic 4 , I like it because at 310 pounds its 30 Hp more than enough to push the 26 at hull speed and they are very reliable . > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11153|11133|2006-06-19 17:32:24|brentswain38|Re: Quantity of Welding Rod|Roughly 300 lbs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joeearsley" wrote: > > Does anyone have a rough quantity of rod used to build a BS 36? > | 11154|9840|2006-06-19 17:35:18|brentswain38|Re: BS 26|The transom is a bit exposed to following seas. A cowl vent with a bit of innertube to act as a check valve, on deck just above the transom would be better. It's a lot of work to make a mooring bit strong enough and also do duty as a vent. Much simpler to have a vent by itself separate from the mooring bit. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the transom via > > clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I dont like > > the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the quarter berths > > so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as intakes allso > > anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > > It's been done. One of my books has a design for just such a thing and it looks both workable > and pretty easy to fabricate. In essence you have a tube in a tube with the outer tube having > holes to allow in air, the inner tube piercing the deck. All welded to a doubler plate which is > welded/bolted to the hull. I thought it was a pretty neat design. > > PDW > | 11155|9840|2006-06-19 19:21:08|tom|Re: BS 26|Hello Brent Youre right I hadnt thought about that but I would only have about 6-8 inches walking clearance with the table folded down, making it to swing to one side would be a lot better + eliminate the post in the middle Thanks Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > It sounds like real gymnastics to get into that v berth. With the > web and pipes from the inside deck edges to the chine, you don't need > a support pipe in the middle. I did a swing out table in the middle > which can be swung to one side at night, making the V berth much more > easily reached. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> I've been working on the inside of the boat here lately and I > have a few keel braces in , I managed to catch the light just right > for an inside picture of it and its posted in origamiboats2 . >> I think what I am going to do on the cabin layout is raise the V > berth some so it can stay more forward and still be 7' long then put > in a rap around couch- sate just behind the V berth with the > compression post in the middle and drop leaf table, it should come > out about 5'-6"x 5'-6" just big enough for 4 people to set . then to > starboard the head or WC , little small but will work 36" long x 30" > wide with about 5' headroom. across to port the small galley then > quarter berths about 6'-4" long . I am hoping I can fit in a hanging > locker about a foot wide somewhere. This is about the best I can come > up with keeping the inside open, comfortable and functional for the > limited space available. >> I finally made a decision on inboard engine some of you are going > to think I'm nuts but I am using the atomic 4 , I like it because at > 310 pounds its 30 Hp more than enough to push the 26 at hull speed > and they are very reliable . >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11156|9840|2006-06-19 22:41:56|mickeyolaf|Re: BS 26|The company was called North Atlantic Yachts, phone 902-477-8010. The email was brian.smyth@..., web site at www.chebucto.ns.ca I haven't tried these addresses or the phone number in 5 years. I enquired in 2000 re the Tom Thumb. At that time the steel kits were $7900 US. I almost ordered one but then decided to wait, save more money up, and go aluminum with the BS 36 so I would have more storage and could liveaboard for the summer with some elbow room. I also wanted a pilothouse due to the Pacific NW rain, plus larger water, holding, and fuel tanks so I could anchor out and save dock fees. The $7900 kits were for the Tom Thumb 26. What intriqued me was the design had the diesel running via a v/drive which placed the engine under the cockpit. The result was a big interior for 26'. There was a chain locker in front of and under the sail locker both forward of the vberth. Full headroom. A short bowsprit, dinette, head, 4 portlights. That's all I remember. I first saw one at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond. BC. It is still there. Painted white. Today I drove by the aluminum BS 40 being built at a house in Steveston, BC. I don't know him but he is working away at her. It's good to see homebuilders still building boats in driveways. In the 70's they were everywhere. Pretty few and far between now. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > > Sure would like to learn how to contact the NS family building steel > boats, if/when you find out ! > > Any idea what they cost ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > I was originally going to build a steel Tom Thumb 24, a Graham > > Shannon design. It had a great layout for 24. I then looked at > > Brents 26 but eventually went for his 36 just to get liveaboard room > > for 2. I should have compromised with the 30 as I am finding the 36 > > expensive to put together. > > You might want to look at the TTh 24 for it's interior design plus > > you have an extra 2 feet to work with. It had a diesel which didn't > > seem to compromise too much space. A little internet searching > > should come up with the old plan for it. > > The downside of outboards is battery charging. Yamaha has a 9.9 hp > > longshaft putting out 13 amps but most OB's generate five which > > won't keep a bank up. My last sailboat had an outboard and it was > > loud when sitting in the cockpit ( I wore earplugs on long runs) and > > useless charging batteries. The new four strokes are much quieter. > > I like the down in the keel fuel tank for the diesel. I wouldn't > > want gasoline in an integral tank in a sailboat so I would end up > > with a five gallon outboard tank in the cockpit. Gasoline tanks and > > their fuel lines inside a sailboat makes me nervous. > > I think somewhere in Nova Scotia a family is still building TTh 24's > > in steel. I haven't looked lately on the net to see. They used to > > advertise their steel hulls/u finish so u shoulod be able to find > > the interior layout pretty easy. It was well thought out. Another > > really well done 24 is the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20. Alot of boat > > in a small space. Good interiors both with I/B diesels. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > >>Hello Mickey > >> Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of > > > > air flow. > > > >> Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small > > > > outboard > > > >>in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an > > > > inboard in > > > >>the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the > > > > vents, shift > > > >>linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the > > > > inboard is > > > >>creating a problem, I am going to rethink this a bit > >> Tom > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "mickeyolaf" > >>To: > >>Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:05 PM > >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 > >> > >> > >> > >>>You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool > > > > an > > > >>>exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the > > > > engine > > > >>>room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft > >>>main bulkhead. > >>>The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water > > > > intake. If > > > >>>the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot > >>>house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and > >>>protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain > >>>via the clamshells. > >>>Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I > > > > would > > > >>>guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water > > > > I > > > >>>would have to say " Houston we have a problem". > >>>One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher > > > > keeps > > > >>>the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where > > > > it > > > >>>could become annoying when tiller steering. > >>>I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the > >>>engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then > >>>closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room > > > > sealed > > > >>>then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air > >>>available. > >>>I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via > >>>moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of > > > > the > > > >>>blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am > > > > still > > > >>>hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife > >>>yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a > > > > win. > > > >>>I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and > >>>don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. > > > > Filtering > > > >>>would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't > > > > need > > > >>>one. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? > >>>> > >>>>Hello Eric > >>>> I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try > >>> > >>>this weekend > >>> > >>>>when I have a little more time. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even > > > > rebuild > > > >>>a > >>> > >>>>used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 > > > > lunger > > > >>>>would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better > > > > on > > > >>>>consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, > > > > I'd do > > > >>>>anything I could to talk you out of gas. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot > >>> > >>>longer than > >>> > >>>>a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, > >>> > >>>then lookout > >>> > >>>>but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper > >>> > >>>maintinace it > >>> > >>>>will be fine. > >>>>I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the > >>> > >>>engine easy > >>> > >>>>just in case it doesnt work out as planed. > >>>> This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine > >>> > >>>compartment, > >>> > >>>>I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the > >>> > >>>transom via > >>> > >>>>clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I > >>> > >>>dont like > >>> > >>>>the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the > >>> > >>>quarter berths > >>> > >>>>so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as > > > > intakes > > > >>>allso > >>> > >>>>anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions > >>>>Tom > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11157|9840|2006-06-19 23:39:06|aaron riis|Re: BS 26|Great looking boat, Tom, good job. I'm putting my head just forward of the mast to the port side it will fit 18 inches between that bulkhead and the v birth. it will be private from aft, but not entirely. behind that i will have 2 full length bunks on each side and the entire galley will be in my wheelhouse. The cookstove won't be gimballed, facing aft next to the companionway ladder and on the other side of the ladder, the sink. a steering wheel will face forward on the starboard side in the wheelhouse and the heating stove will be bulkhead mounted on the starboard side just aft of the mast. luck with the boatbuilding, Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > It sounds like real gymnastics to get into that v > berth. With the > web and pipes from the inside deck edges to the > chine, you don't need > a support pipe in the middle. I did a swing out > table in the middle > which can be swung to one side at night, making the > V berth much more > easily reached. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" > wrote: > > > > Hello All > > I've been working on the inside of the boat here > lately and I > have a few keel braces in , I managed to catch the > light just right > for an inside picture of it and its posted in > origamiboats2 . > > I think what I am going to do on the cabin layout > is raise the V > berth some so it can stay more forward and still be > 7' long then put > in a rap around couch- sate just behind the V berth > with the > compression post in the middle and drop leaf table, > it should come > out about 5'-6"x 5'-6" just big enough for 4 people > to set . then to > starboard the head or WC , little small but will > work 36" long x 30" > wide with about 5' headroom. across to port the > small galley then > quarter berths about 6'-4" long . I am hoping I can > fit in a hanging > locker about a foot wide somewhere. This is about > the best I can come > up with keeping the inside open, comfortable and > functional for the > limited space available. > > I finally made a decision on inboard engine some > of you are going > to think I'm nuts but I am using the atomic 4 , I > like it because at > 310 pounds its 30 Hp more than enough to push the 26 > at hull speed > and they are very reliable . > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 11158|11158|2006-06-20 00:30:52|khooper_fboats|Tanton 45 - Preliminary Plating Model|I finally got around to putting some stuff on a web page; there are several photos of the model we've been building over the past few weeks and some explanation. Also if you have broadband, I made a couple Quicktime VR object models of the hull. You can grab it and spin it with your mouse. Kinda fun. http://homepage.mac.com/bighouse/boatfiles/index.html Comments welcome. --Ken| 11159|11158|2006-06-20 06:09:23|cirejay|Re: Tanton 45 - Preliminary Plating Model|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I finally got around to putting some stuff on a web page; there are > several photos of the model we've been building over the past few > weeks and some explanation. > > Also if you have broadband, I made a couple Quicktime VR object models > of the hull. You can grab it and spin it with your mouse. Kinda fun. > Well, I don't know enough to make any critical comments so I'll limit myself to what I do know; COOL! Can't wait to see the finished product. eric, S/V Nebaras| 11160|11160|2006-06-20 08:24:35|Gerd|ROVER 36 - hull folded|we have finished folding the hull and hung the transom in. I put some pictures in origamibaots 2 in the folder "yago rover 36" http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats2/photos/browse/287f?c= With 4 mm plates, and a very dense structure of stringers 40x30x4 mm, the sheets were very stiff. Folding the half hulls was easy, but joining them towards bow and transom was quite tough... the result though is very strong, and a very nice fair hull. On Yago it was easier, but then it was 3 mm and I had no stringers in, and adding them later is quite a pain.. so I guess next time I would like to try something in between, say half the stringers and maybe not near the ends before folding, and add the rest aterwards. Still, compared to classic hardchine, it's a winner. I do not know exactly how much Time my friend Karcsi put in so far, but I would guess not more than 10, 12 full working days including the welding of the smaller sheets. origami rules - thanks guys, where would I be without you! ;-) Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 11161|11161|2006-06-20 08:51:35|Gerd|rust bullet|Yes, I KNOW sandblasting and epoxy is best.... ;-) but just to see, I am at the moment testing rust bullet. I bought a tin and applied to different surfaces. So far: once cured it is _amazingly_ tough. I built a ladder for the main hatch from some scrap t-profiles that I then painted with 2 coats, surface uprepared dirty rust, sharp edges and all. I am all the time climbing up and down, boots full of dirt, I drag cables and profiles and all sorts of stuff over it, and the paint shows no use or wear at all, even on the sharp edges. the finish is smooth, sort of plastic look and touch but very hard, I also tried bending painted parts, noch crack, no peeling off etc... I really am impressed with the stuff. ...maybe for inside??? I know this was brought up before, but does anybody have any more recent experiences with it? Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 11162|9840|2006-06-20 09:49:26|Courtney Thomas|Re: BS 26|Thank you for your trouble. There is nothing about a Tom Thumb 26 on their website but I emailed 'em about it. Your description sounds good. Appreciatively, Courtney mickeyolaf wrote: > The company was called North Atlantic Yachts, phone 902-477-8010. The email was > brian.smyth@..., web site at www.chebucto.ns.ca > I haven't tried these addresses or the phone number in 5 years. I enquired in 2000 re the > Tom Thumb. At that time the steel kits were $7900 US. I almost ordered one but then > decided to wait, save more money up, and go aluminum with the BS 36 so I would have > more storage and could liveaboard for the summer with some elbow room. I also wanted a > pilothouse due to the Pacific NW rain, plus larger water, holding, and fuel tanks so I could > anchor out and save dock fees. > The $7900 kits were for the Tom Thumb 26. What intriqued me was the design had the > diesel running via a v/drive which placed the engine under the cockpit. The result was a > big interior for 26'. There was a chain locker in front of and under the sail locker both > forward of the vberth. Full headroom. A short bowsprit, dinette, head, 4 portlights. That's > all I remember. > I first saw one at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond. BC. It is still there. Painted white. > > Today I drove by the aluminum BS 40 being built at a house in Steveston, BC. I don't know > him but he is working away at her. It's good to see homebuilders still building boats in > driveways. In the 70's they were everywhere. Pretty few and far between now. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > >>Sure would like to learn how to contact the NS family building steel >>boats, if/when you find out ! >> >>Any idea what they cost ? >> >>Thank you, >>Courtney >> >> >>mickeyolaf wrote: >> >>>I was originally going to build a steel Tom Thumb 24, a Graham >>>Shannon design. It had a great layout for 24. I then looked at >>>Brents 26 but eventually went for his 36 just to get liveaboard room >>>for 2. I should have compromised with the 30 as I am finding the 36 >>>expensive to put together. >>>You might want to look at the TTh 24 for it's interior design plus >>>you have an extra 2 feet to work with. It had a diesel which didn't >>>seem to compromise too much space. A little internet searching >>>should come up with the old plan for it. >>>The downside of outboards is battery charging. Yamaha has a 9.9 hp >>>longshaft putting out 13 amps but most OB's generate five which >>>won't keep a bank up. My last sailboat had an outboard and it was >>>loud when sitting in the cockpit ( I wore earplugs on long runs) and >>>useless charging batteries. The new four strokes are much quieter. >>>I like the down in the keel fuel tank for the diesel. I wouldn't >>>want gasoline in an integral tank in a sailboat so I would end up >>>with a five gallon outboard tank in the cockpit. Gasoline tanks and >>>their fuel lines inside a sailboat makes me nervous. >>>I think somewhere in Nova Scotia a family is still building TTh 24's >>>in steel. I haven't looked lately on the net to see. They used to >>>advertise their steel hulls/u finish so u shoulod be able to find >>>the interior layout pretty easy. It was well thought out. Another >>>really well done 24 is the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20. Alot of boat >>>in a small space. Good interiors both with I/B diesels. >>> >>> >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Hello Mickey >>>> Blower cooled exhaust, I would emagine that would take a lot of >>> >>>air flow. >>> >>> >>>>Memory is coming back to me as to why I was going to use a small >>> >>>outboard >>> >>> >>>>in the first place, You sure loose a lot of realestate with an >>> >>>inboard in >>> >>> >>>>the 26 + keeping it water tight becomes a problem with all the >>> >>>vents, shift >>> >>> >>>>linkage,ext. with the way I want to layout the interior the >>> >>>inboard is >>> >>> >>>>creating a problem, I am going to rethink this a bit >>>>Tom >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "mickeyolaf" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:05 PM >>>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>You need alot of fresh air to feed a diesel and also blower cool >>> >>>an >>> >>> >>>>>exhaust. I have two 4 inch pipes directing fresh air to the >>> >>>engine >>> >>> >>>>>room and also acting as the structure for the corners for the aft >>>>>main bulkhead. >>>>>The higher the intakes the better for prevention of water >>> >>>intake. If >>> >>> >>>>>the access vents are on the aft bulkhead corners near the pilot >>>>>house roof they are covered by the overhang on the P/H roof and >>>>>protected from spray coming aft. They are also shielded from rain >>>>>via the clamshells. >>>>>Such venting is out of the way, doesn't require dorades, and I >>> >>>would >>> >>> >>>>>guess that if the top corners of the pilothouse are in the water >>> >>>I >>> >>> >>>>>would have to say " Houston we have a problem". >>>>>One of my concerns is noise and having the intakes up higher >>> >>>keeps >>> >>> >>>>>the blower suction noise out of the aft end of the cockpit where >>> >>>it >>> >>> >>>>>could become annoying when tiller steering. >>>>>I am hoping that 8 inches of air will be enough. I will run the >>>>>engine and the blower intially with the engine room open and then >>>>>closed and if I have a reduction in RPM with the engine room >>> >>>sealed >>> >>> >>>>>then I will add to the vents until I have the right amount of air >>>>>available. >>>>>I've read that salt water cooled exhausts are hard on diesels via >>>>>moisture into the engine and so for a compromise of the noise of >>> >>>the >>> >>> >>>>>blower and the loss of the salt water acting as a muffler I am >>> >>>still >>> >>> >>>>>hoping for a livable noise level. If the noise drowns out my wife >>>>>yelling at me that the boat is healed over too far then its a >>> >>>win. >>> >>> >>>>>I would like to screen the 4" intakes to keep wasps etc out and >>>>>don't know how much of a reduction in flow would result. >>> >>>Filtering >>> >>> >>>>>would be overkill as the engine has a filter and blowers don't >>> >>>need >>> >>> >>>>>one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I like the sound of the layout. Any chance of posting a sketch? >>>>>> >>>>>>Hello Eric >>>>>>I am better at building than drawing but I will give it a try >>>>> >>>>>this weekend >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>when I have a little more time. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Yep, I do think your nuts:-) Why not a small diesel? Even >>> >>>rebuild >>> >>> >>>>>a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>used one like you'd need to do with the atomic 4. A 15hp, 2 >>> >>>lunger >>> >>> >>>>>>would weigh no more, probably less, than the 4, be a lot better >>> >>>on >>> >>> >>>>>>consumption of a safe fuel, and push you just as fast. Tom, >>> >>>I'd do >>> >>> >>>>>>anything I could to talk you out of gas. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Your right diesel would be safer and you can neglected it a lot >>>>> >>>>>longer than >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>a gas engine, the gas engine is safe till you have a fuel leak, >>>>> >>>>>then lookout >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>but I do beleave if its installed correctly with the proper >>>>> >>>>>maintinace it >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>will be fine. >>>>>>I am building the engine beds wide and low enough to change the >>>>> >>>>>engine easy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>just in case it doesnt work out as planed. >>>>>>This does bring up one question on ventalation for the engine >>>>> >>>>>compartment, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I am planing on running a powerd exhaust fan out through the >>>>> >>>>>transom via >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>clam shell vent but I need to set up a couple intake vents and I >>>>> >>>>>dont like >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the idea of running hoses from the cabin top down around the >>>>> >>>>>quarter berths >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>so what I am thinking is mabee useing the mooring bits as >>> >>>intakes >>> >>> >>>>>allso >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>anyone tryed that or have any better sugestions >>>>>>Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11163|11161|2006-06-20 20:02:20|tom|Re: rust bullet|Hello Gerd I was just reading up on rust bullet and from what there saying on the web site it's good stuff . sure would be nice to eliminate the sand blasting stage. I wonder if it works as good as they say and in a marine inviroment, I quess we will have to get someone to try it. who's going first? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] rust bullet > Yes, I KNOW sandblasting and epoxy is best.... ;-) but just to see, > I am at the moment testing rust bullet. I bought a tin and applied > to different surfaces. > So far: once cured it is _amazingly_ tough. I built a ladder for the > main hatch from some scrap t-profiles that I then painted with 2 > coats, surface uprepared dirty rust, sharp edges and all. I am all > the time climbing up and down, boots full of dirt, I drag cables and > profiles and all sorts of stuff over it, and the paint shows no use > or wear at all, even on the sharp edges. > > the finish is smooth, sort of plastic look and touch but very hard, > I also tried bending painted parts, noch crack, no peeling off > etc... I really am impressed with the stuff. > > ...maybe for inside??? > > I know this was brought up before, but does anybody have any more > recent experiences with it? > > > Gerd > http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11164|11161|2006-06-20 20:41:16|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: rust bullet|Didn't it come up befor that the blasting removed the millscale and other crud so it wouldn't flake lose. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Gerd > I was just reading up on rust bullet and from what there saying on the web > site it's good stuff . sure would be nice to eliminate the sand blasting > stage. I wonder if it works as good as they say and in a marine inviroment, > I quess we will have to get someone to try it. who's going first? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 5:51 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] rust bullet > > > > Yes, I KNOW sandblasting and epoxy is best.... ;-) but just to see, > > I am at the moment testing rust bullet. I bought a tin and applied > > to different surfaces. > > So far: once cured it is _amazingly_ tough. I built a ladder for the > > main hatch from some scrap t-profiles that I then painted with 2 > > coats, surface uprepared dirty rust, sharp edges and all. I am all > > the time climbing up and down, boots full of dirt, I drag cables and > > profiles and all sorts of stuff over it, and the paint shows no use > > or wear at all, even on the sharp edges. > > > > the finish is smooth, sort of plastic look and touch but very hard, > > I also tried bending painted parts, noch crack, no peeling off > > etc... I really am impressed with the stuff. > > > > ...maybe for inside??? > > > > I know this was brought up before, but does anybody have any more > > recent experiences with it? > > > > > > Gerd > > http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11165|11165|2006-06-20 21:10:10|tom|BS 26 inboard|Hello All I orderd the prop shaft . berring , and stuffing box today . I ended up buying from Glen-L marine they have some good prices and I've delt with them before and they seem to be good people to deal with. I bought a stainless prop shaft , "the monel ones were to pricey" with the rubber lined fluted berring. The stuffing box I went with a single seal type with grease fitting just because its a couple inches shorter than the packing type. Bought a 12"x8" 3blade prop on ebay for practicly nothing and I'm going to cut it down to 10". All in all not to bad ended uo spending a $100 less than a new prop for everything I needed. Now I just need to find a good deal on lead , I scrounged about 600 lbs but I still need 1200 lbs more the best deal sofar is 25 cents a pound for good clean stuff " not wheel weights" heck I had a few places tryed to charge me 30 cent a pound on wheel weights. In a month or two I will be at the stage of balasting I might just have to bite the bullet and pay when that time comes Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11166|11165|2006-06-20 23:44:54|khooper_fboats|Price of Lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > Now I just need to find a good deal on lead , I > scrounged about 600 lbs but I still need 1200 lbs > more the best deal sofar is 25 cents a pound for > good clean stuff That's what I'm seeing too, I was quoted .26 in a 4000 lb lot in St. Louis. The guy has a contract with a utility and the lead comes from cables. I suspect he's paying .13 for it. I wish we could get it for that. --Ken| 11167|11165|2006-06-21 04:12:45|Aaron Williams|Re: Price of Lead|.26 Is far better than the futures market value of .70cents a pound So far in Alaska I have not had anywhere near that low. I found 1 person that could round up 1500 lbs but I said I did not want to pay more .50 cents a pound he said he would just turn it into fish weights. I dont think he knows how much work that can be. Anyone ever think abot tungston carbide cut blade from a machine shop? Tungston is about 1204lbs per cubic foot. khooper_fboats wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > Now I just need to find a good deal on lead , I > scrounged about 600 lbs but I still need 1200 lbs > more the best deal sofar is 25 cents a pound for > good clean stuff That's what I'm seeing too, I was quoted .26 in a 4000 lb lot in St. Louis. The guy has a contract with a utility and the lead comes from cables. I suspect he's paying .13 for it. I wish we could get it for that. --Ken --------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11168|11168|2006-06-21 20:09:46|tom|mig welding stainless|Hello All I did a little testing with .035" 316 stainless mig wire this morning on mild steel and then stainless to rusty mild steel to see how strong the welds were and it sure past my test , I could not break them , I'm not using the trimix shielding gas that they recommend ,instead I'm using a bimix of 75% argon and 25% carbon dioxide. The welds are coming out pretty clean and pure. I still need to do a little more testing with it before I will use it on the boat. I haven't found a good stainless welding rod that works out of position very well yet, flat and horizontal they work great, vertical lot of slag entrapment . If anyone knows of a good brand for all positions please let me know? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11169|11168|2006-06-21 20:34:28|gulo856|Re: mig welding stainless|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I did a little testing with .035" 316 stainless mig wire this morning on mild steel and then stainless to rusty mild steel to see how strong the welds were and it sure past my test , I could not break them , I'm not using the trimix shielding gas that they recommend ,instead I'm using a bimix of 75% argon and 25% carbon dioxide. The welds are coming out pretty clean and pure. I still need to do a little more testing with it before I will use it on the boat. I haven't found a good stainless welding rod that works out of position very well yet, flat and horizontal they work great, vertical lot of slag entrapment . > If anyone knows of a good brand for all positions please let me know? > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > tom i'm new to this group but i'm a welder, fabicater by trade...a good all purpose stainless rod i would use a 3086...and for useing a stainless wire on mild steel i'm a little confused...when you add the stainless wire too mild steel you are mixing the iron from the mild in with the stainless you are gaining nothing...the weld will still rust...you gain no strength...all i see is you add cost...if you are looking for a lower splatter of weld i would recomend a flux wire with your bimix...or just use a stander .035 mild wire with the bi mix...much cheaper!!!for clean up use a 60 grid buffing pad and you will see awsome results... david| 11170|11168|2006-06-21 20:43:22|Gary H. Lucas|Re: mig welding stainless|David, It is common on steel boats to weld on stainless hardware like stainless railings or chafe plates that won't rust from a rope or chain dragging over them. When you paint the hull you just paint a short distance onto the stainless. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "gulo856" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 8:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding stainless --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I did a little testing with .035" 316 stainless mig wire this morning on mild steel and then stainless to rusty mild steel to see how strong the welds were and it sure past my test , I could not break them , I'm not using the trimix shielding gas that they recommend ,instead I'm using a bimix of 75% argon and 25% carbon dioxide. The welds are coming out pretty clean and pure. I still need to do a little more testing with it before I will use it on the boat. I haven't found a good stainless welding rod that works out of position very well yet, flat and horizontal they work great, vertical lot of slag entrapment . > If anyone knows of a good brand for all positions please let me know? > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > tom i'm new to this group but i'm a welder, fabicater by trade...a good all purpose stainless rod i would use a 3086...and for useing a stainless wire on mild steel i'm a little confused...when you add the stainless wire too mild steel you are mixing the iron from the mild in with the stainless you are gaining nothing...the weld will still rust...you gain no strength...all i see is you add cost...if you are looking for a lower splatter of weld i would recomend a flux wire with your bimix...or just use a stander .035 mild wire with the bi mix...much cheaper!!!for clean up use a 60 grid buffing pad and you will see awsome results... david | 11171|11165|2006-06-21 21:25:05|Peter|Re: Price of Lead|Tungsten would be a great ballast. Unfortunately it is so expensive that most of the larger "carbide" tooling in machine shops use small pieces of it soldered or bolted to a steel backing. When the tool is fairly small though, it will often be made from more or less solid tungsten carbide. "End Mills" and "Ball Mills" (which look something like drill bits) both tend to get thrown in a bin at machine shops, and are usually solid carbide. Some shops will probably give them to you if you call a number of shops and ask, especially if you drop off some containers for the scrap and wait a few weeks or months for the containers to fill up. The solid carbide tools are likely 65% to 90% tungsten by weight, remembering also, that some of the tools that they give you will be "High Speed Steel". Both of these types of tooling have a scrap recycling value, so you may have to pay the scrap price, or buy from a carbide scrap recycler. Peter Aaron Williams wrote: > > .26 Is far better than the futures market value of .70cents a pound > So far in Alaska I have not had anywhere near that low. I found 1 > person that could round up 1500 lbs but I said I did not want to pay > more .50 cents a pound he said he would just turn it into fish > weights. I dont think he knows how much work that can be. > Anyone ever think abot tungston carbide cut blade from a machine shop? > Tungston is about 1204lbs per cubic foot. > > khooper_fboats > wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "tom" wrote: > > > Now I just need to find a good deal on lead , I > > scrounged about 600 lbs but I still need 1200 lbs > > more the best deal sofar is 25 cents a pound for > > good clean stuff > > That's what I'm seeing too, I was quoted .26 in a 4000 lb lot in St. > Louis. The guy has a contract with a utility and the lead comes from > cables. I suspect he's paying .13 for it. I wish we could get it for that. > > --Ken > > > --------------------------------- > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11172|11165|2006-06-22 03:41:42|sae140|Re: Price of Lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Peter wrote: > > Tungsten would be a great ballast. Uranium (the non-radioactive variety !) would be great - if only it could be readily sourced. Colin| 11173|11168|2006-06-22 05:01:06|thcain@octa4.net.au|Re: mig welding stainless|On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:34:17 -0000 "gulo856" wrote: >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" >wrote: (stuff relating to welds tested and untested) If you want to weld any 300 series stainless material onto a low-carbon (250 and up to 1040 grade), then there are "horses for courses". If the weldment is one in which you need integrity (no loss of strength relative to the SS part's design capacity, and no cracking problems later), then the weld deposit should be made with a 309L consumable. It is true that people have used a 316 or 316L or 308 or 308L consumable and have had zero problems. Perhaps those deposits have not been stressed to anything like the yield of either the low carbon steel part or the 316 part, or the area has not been inspected for micro cracking in the heat affected zone. Certainly if one's existence depended on a marginal weld I feel sure that one would be more comfortable with a sound weld made with the right stuff. 309L was not created just to sell more wire or electrodes. The composition is carefully targetted at the weld pool of a joint between ordinary low-carbon steel and a 300 series stainless steel, as well as other tasks not specified here. If you are welding with a 316 consumable some fittings which are understressed relative to the size of the weldment (throat and length) and the surface is protected adequately against the actual service environment, then no fracture should occur, but it is not good practise to use the incorrect consumable. Terry| 11174|11174|2006-06-22 09:02:16|Ray|Off Topic BS post|I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends share interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like boats ( kayaks to sailboats ), and to a person, we all LIKE old fixed up cars more than a new Prius, and there are several of us that are Pilots as well. Since this group shares a love of boats, and the hard-headedness to spend MUCH more time/money/aggravation to "do it ourselves" - I just wonder what OTHER interests are shared as well. SO - do we have any other sailor/pilot/biker/racer/??? folks out here? No point to the discussion other than to satisfy my personal curiosity. Ray Kimbro| 11175|11174|2006-06-22 09:47:47|racer577@citystar.com|Re: Off Topic BS post|> I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends share > interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like boats ( > kayaks to sailboats ), and to a person, we all LIKE old fixed up cars > more than a new Prius, and there are several of us that are Pilots as > well. > SO - do we have any other sailor/pilot/biker/racer/??? folks out here? > > No point to the discussion other than to satisfy my personal curiosity. > > Ray Kimbro > > Yep, another motorcycle road racer with an interest in boats here. Although I grew up sailing and was prevented from having a bike until I got out on my own. John| 11176|11174|2006-06-22 10:27:48|Ray|Re: Off Topic BS post|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, racer577@... wrote: > > > > Yep, another motorcycle road racer with an interest in boats here. > Although I grew up sailing and was prevented from having a bike until I > got out on my own. > > John Very neat indeed - what do you sail/race?| 11177|11174|2006-06-22 13:18:16|Gerd|Re: Off Topic BS post|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > Since this group shares a love of boats, and the hard-headedness to > spend MUCH more time/money/aggravation to "do it ourselves" - I just > wonder what OTHER interests are shared as well. Well, last time I stopped messing around in boats for some years I immediately looked for some surrogate, and started flying ultralight trikes, which in those days we built ourselves from some horrible bits and pieces, only the wings were usually bought. I still have the license. We bent a lot of tubes then, lost a tank in flight, got shot at by angry hunters, and once had the idea to open bags of rice over a church for a friend's wedding - except that the grains were all sucked into the pushing props on the little twin solo engines, the props lost most of their profiles and about half the length, the solo's screeched up into overdrive and blocked. We got down onto the vilage main road sort of ok, but trike and wing were dead. Ah those were the days... ;-) in the end I did get a bit scared, and as we did not have the cash to invest in good machines and material, I dropped out of that scene. Todays ultralights are real little sport planes, would love to try again one of these days Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 11178|11168|2006-06-22 14:16:05|tom|Re: mig welding stainless|Hello Terry Thanks for the post. Last night I dug out my Lincoln consumables binder and did a little reading and yes the 309L is made for welding steel to stainless steel they even make some for welding down hand. So for the strucual parts I figured I better use the right stuff anyway called around and found one outfit that carried it and they didnt mind selling small quantities so I picked up 4 Lbs and that stuff is pricey. The only draw back is it is supposed to be stored at 300 degrees the good thing if its not you can put it in an oven at 350 for 3 hours and it will be fine. I will just get a bunch of the stainless parts ready then use the oven and do them all at the same time. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 1:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding stainless > On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:34:17 -0000 > "gulo856" wrote: >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" >>wrote: (stuff relating to welds tested and untested) > > > If you want to weld any 300 series stainless material onto > a low-carbon (250 and up to 1040 grade), then there are > "horses for courses". > > If the weldment is one in which you need integrity (no > loss of strength relative to the SS part's design > capacity, and no cracking problems later), then the weld > deposit should be made with a 309L consumable. > It is true that people have used a 316 or 316L or 308 or > 308L consumable and have had zero problems. Perhaps those > deposits have not been stressed to anything like the yield > of either the low carbon steel part or the 316 part, or > the area has not been inspected for micro cracking in the > heat affected zone. Certainly if one's existence depended > on a marginal weld I feel sure that one would be more > comfortable with a sound weld made with the right stuff. > > 309L was not created just to sell more wire or electrodes. > The composition is carefully targetted at the weld pool of > a joint between ordinary low-carbon steel and a 300 series > stainless steel, as well as other tasks not specified > here. > > If you are welding with a 316 consumable some fittings > which are understressed relative to the size of the > weldment (throat and length) and the surface is protected > adequately against the actual service environment, then no > fracture should occur, but it is not good practise to use > the incorrect consumable. > > Terry > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11179|11174|2006-06-22 14:54:13|Michael Casling|Re: Off Topic BS post|I used to sell motorcycles in my previous life as well as boats. For a while I was one of the fastest guys on the road race courses, about 1972 / 73. Also rode motocross and cross country. There are many other sailor motorcycle rider types. Curtis Blewetts dad comes to mind. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 5:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Off Topic BS post I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends share interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like boats ( kayaks to sailboats ), and to a person, we all LIKE old fixed up cars more than a new Prius, and there are several of us that are Pilots as well. Since this group shares a love of boats, and the hard-headedness to spend MUCH more time/money/aggravation to "do it ourselves" - I just wonder what OTHER interests are shared as well. SO - do we have any other sailor/pilot/biker/racer/??? folks out here? No point to the discussion other than to satisfy my personal curiosity. Ray Kimbro [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11180|11165|2006-06-22 20:39:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Price of Lead|DU, Depleted Uranium was once used on a French racing boat about 20 years ago, but they disqualified them because it weighs twice as much as lead and they used it in a bulb keel which them a huge advantage. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Price of Lead --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Peter wrote: > > Tungsten would be a great ballast. Uranium (the non-radioactive variety !) would be great - if only it could be readily sourced. Colin | 11181|11168|2006-06-22 20:44:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: mig welding stainless|Tom, All welding rods weld better when warm and dry. A couple of people make little portable rod ovens that hold about 5 lbs of rods that you can keep near you as you work. They keep the rods at about 300 degrees. Quite a few of the welders I know store their rods in an old refrigerator, with a light bulb or small heating element for heat. They stay at about 150 degrees or so, and it dries all the moisture out. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding stainless > Hello Terry > Thanks for the post. Last night I dug out my Lincoln consumables binder > and > did a little reading and yes the 309L is made for welding steel to > stainless > steel they even make some for welding down hand. So for the strucual parts > I > figured I better use the right stuff anyway called around and found one > outfit that carried it and they didnt mind selling small quantities so I > picked up 4 Lbs and that stuff is pricey. The only draw back is it is > supposed to be stored at 300 degrees the good thing if its not you can put > it in an oven at 350 for 3 hours and it will be fine. > I will just get a bunch of the stainless parts ready then use the oven > and > do them all at the same time. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 1:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding stainless > > >> On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:34:17 -0000 >> "gulo856" wrote: >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" >>>wrote: (stuff relating to welds tested and untested) >> >> >> If you want to weld any 300 series stainless material onto >> a low-carbon (250 and up to 1040 grade), then there are >> "horses for courses". >> >> If the weldment is one in which you need integrity (no >> loss of strength relative to the SS part's design >> capacity, and no cracking problems later), then the weld >> deposit should be made with a 309L consumable. >> It is true that people have used a 316 or 316L or 308 or >> 308L consumable and have had zero problems. Perhaps those >> deposits have not been stressed to anything like the yield >> of either the low carbon steel part or the 316 part, or >> the area has not been inspected for micro cracking in the >> heat affected zone. Certainly if one's existence depended >> on a marginal weld I feel sure that one would be more >> comfortable with a sound weld made with the right stuff. >> >> 309L was not created just to sell more wire or electrodes. >> The composition is carefully targetted at the weld pool of >> a joint between ordinary low-carbon steel and a 300 series >> stainless steel, as well as other tasks not specified >> here. >> >> If you are welding with a 316 consumable some fittings >> which are understressed relative to the size of the >> weldment (throat and length) and the surface is protected >> adequately against the actual service environment, then no >> fracture should occur, but it is not good practise to use >> the incorrect consumable. >> >> Terry >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > | 11182|11168|2006-06-23 04:54:22|sae140|Re: mig welding stainless|Dunno if this is of any interest, but I picked up a few boxes of outdated 2205 rods from a North Sea oil-rig store and have been using some over the last few days to weld-up some 316 s/s unstayed mast hinges. I'm finding they weld like a cross between welding and brazing - the stuff flows beautifully. Produces a pretty tough weld too. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Terry > Thanks for the post. Last night I dug out my Lincoln consumables binder and > did a little reading and yes the 309L is made for welding steel to stainless > steel they even make some for welding down hand. So for the strucual parts I > figured I better use the right stuff anyway called around and found one > outfit that carried it and they didnt mind selling small quantities so I > picked up 4 Lbs and that stuff is pricey. The only draw back is it is > supposed to be stored at 300 degrees the good thing if its not you can put > it in an oven at 350 for 3 hours and it will be fine. > I will just get a bunch of the stainless parts ready then use the oven and > do them all at the same time. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 1:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: mig welding stainless > > > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:34:17 -0000 > > "gulo856" wrote: > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" > >>wrote: (stuff relating to welds tested and untested) > > > > > > If you want to weld any 300 series stainless material onto > > a low-carbon (250 and up to 1040 grade), then there are > > "horses for courses". > > > > If the weldment is one in which you need integrity (no > > loss of strength relative to the SS part's design > > capacity, and no cracking problems later), then the weld > > deposit should be made with a 309L consumable. > > It is true that people have used a 316 or 316L or 308 or > > 308L consumable and have had zero problems. Perhaps those > > deposits have not been stressed to anything like the yield > > of either the low carbon steel part or the 316 part, or > > the area has not been inspected for micro cracking in the > > heat affected zone. Certainly if one's existence depended > > on a marginal weld I feel sure that one would be more > > comfortable with a sound weld made with the right stuff. > > > > 309L was not created just to sell more wire or electrodes. > > The composition is carefully targetted at the weld pool of > > a joint between ordinary low-carbon steel and a 300 series > > stainless steel, as well as other tasks not specified > > here. > > > > If you are welding with a 316 consumable some fittings > > which are understressed relative to the size of the > > weldment (throat and length) and the surface is protected > > adequately against the actual service environment, then no > > fracture should occur, but it is not good practise to use > > the incorrect consumable. > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11183|11125|2006-06-23 05:15:52|sae140|Re: Aluminum or steel?|> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" > wrote: > > > I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel > > when you factor > > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. > Apparently you really need to sandblast an aluminium hull above the water line, if you're going to leave it unpainted. No - it's not April 1st - see: http://www.kastenmarine.com/metalparts.htm Colin| 11184|11174|2006-06-23 05:34:23|thcain@octa4.net.au|Re: Off Topic BS post|On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 07:21:55 -0600 (MDT) racer577@... wrote: >> I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends >>share >> interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like >>boats ( This one struck a chord! I used to spend all my spare time in the '60s flying sailplanes. Then when the local group approached the end of possibilities for competitive flying in that sport in that area, a significant number (>50%) turned to sailing. We were a very competitive bunch in those days. Power flying was later, and benefitted from the gliding and sailing -- those two go hand-in-glove --- but the people were not as close in social or other interests. Sailing offers so much in the way of learning about lots of things and so far I have found that the majority one meets are decent people with readily acceptable social behaviour. I suppose that deep common interests tend to stream individuals. Terry (in a contemplative mood)| 11185|11165|2006-06-23 10:34:21|khooper_fboats|Re: Price of Lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > DU, Depleted Uranium was once used on a French racing boat about 20 years > ago, but they disqualified them because it weighs twice as much as lead and > they used it in a bulb keel which them a huge advantage. I thought that if uranium were to touch water it would make clouds of hydrogen. I wonder what would happen if you had a uranium bulb keel in a plastic boat and then took a lightning strike...| 11186|11165|2006-06-23 11:58:44|Michael Casling|Re: Price of Lead|Eric Tabarly had a spent uranium keel on Pen Duik I think. It is heavier than lead but not twice as heavy. There were other issues besides weight to disallow it under the rules. For instance many one design fleets do not allow hi tech ( plastic ) sails. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Price of Lead --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > DU, Depleted Uranium was once used on a French racing boat about 20 years > ago, but they disqualified them because it weighs twice as much as lead and > they used it in a bulb keel which them a huge advantage. I thought that if uranium were to touch water it would make clouds of hydrogen. I wonder what would happen if you had a uranium bulb keel in a plastic boat and then took a lightning strike... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11187|11165|2006-06-24 00:55:59|sae140|Re: Price of Lead|There's probably a keel-full or two of the stuff lying in the Kuwaiti desert - isn't this what artillery shells are tipped with these days ? But - apart from the excess baggage weight issues on your local EasyJet flight - imagine the response you'd get in the Customs Hall when you answered the customary "Anything to declare, Sir ?" !! Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Eric Tabarly had a spent uranium keel on Pen Duik I think. > It is heavier than lead but not twice as heavy. > There were other issues besides weight to disallow it under the rules. > For instance many one design fleets do not allow hi tech ( plastic ) sails. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: khooper_fboats > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 7:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Price of Lead > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > DU, Depleted Uranium was once used on a French racing boat about 20 > years > > ago, but they disqualified them because it weighs twice as much as > lead and > > they used it in a bulb keel which them a huge advantage. > > I thought that if uranium were to touch water it would make clouds of > hydrogen. I wonder what would happen if you had a uranium bulb keel in > a plastic boat and then took a lightning strike... > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11188|22|2006-06-24 16:00:13|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Origami Boats 2005.exe Uploaded by : lindsey_young1423 Description : 25 full plans - This was a lifesaver for us! - so I wanted to share it :) You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami%20Boats%202005.exe To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, lindsey_young1423 | 11189|22|2006-06-24 22:06:50|Aaron|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|I hope someone can do some research on this file before we all get some sort spyware or virus.... If its plans why is it a .exe file? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Origami Boats 2005.exe > Uploaded by : lindsey_young1423 > Description : 25 full plans - This was a lifesaver for us! - so I wanted to share it :) > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami%20Boats% 202005.exe > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > lindsey_young1423 > | 11190|11190|2006-06-24 22:48:09|tom|stainless welding|Well I've been welding up stainless with sandvik 309L 16 rods and they weld really nice you're supposed to be able to weld vertical down with them but I found once you get past about 45 degree downhand you get to much slag entrapment. so far I welded up the rudder pindles and the 2 stern mooring bits and I've used over $30 worth. I don't know if its worth it or not, could use 7018 rod or 70S6 solid wire for about $11 a pound cheaper especially on welds that get painted anyway, heck for over 20 years now I've been welding 304 stainless machine hangers to galvanized pipe in the milk barns with 6011 rod and they don't brake they rust a little and when they do get broke off its the stainless that brakes not the weld. Many many years ago I took an advanced welding class at the local college and I ended up dropping it after a couple weeks the instructor was a moron, one of the things he told me was it was imposable to weld stainless to mild steel ! I have been a welder for a lot of years but I think this is the first time for me actually building things out of stainless and I would say its a lot like working with steel once you get the right tools for it. Anyone out there use the 309L wire for mig ? I would like to know how well it works for all position welding and what gas mix works the best. I posted a few more pictures in origamiboats2 of the prop shaft and stuffing box installed, I need to make the engine beds but its 105 degrees out side and feels like 200 in the boat Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11191|22|2006-06-24 22:51:22|tom|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|I was wondering that myself my computer wouldnt open it and warned me that it was an .exe Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron" To: Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats >I hope someone can do some research on this file before we all get > some sort spyware or virus.... > If its plans why is it a .exe file? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > wrote: >> >> >> Hello, >> >> This email message is a notification to let you know that >> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats >> group. >> >> File : /Origami Boats 2005.exe >> Uploaded by : lindsey_young1423 >> Description : 25 full plans - This was a lifesaver for us! - so > I wanted to share it :) >> >> You can access this file at the URL: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami%20Boats% > 202005.exe >> >> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: >> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files >> >> Regards, >> >> lindsey_young1423 >> > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11192|11125|2006-06-25 00:56:58|mickeyolaf|Re: Aluminum or steel?|Have a look at Reyse Marine's site. You will see a Coastal Trawler Yacht drawn by Kasten. Nice looking little ship in aluminum built by Reyse. I called him and a copy of it would be $500,000 CDN. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ask Kasten how many boats he's actually built... or even that have > been built to his designs....how many are actually in the water... > > He writes a fine article. > > There are thousands of aluminum boats out there in the water. In your > locale no doubt there are some that are being used commercially. If > you really want to know what works, go spend some time with the guys > actually out there in the water. They are making 'bang for buck' > decisions on a daily basis. > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" > > wrote: > > > > > I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > > > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel > > > when you factor > > > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. > > > > I think all the people who say this posit extremely expensive coating > > systems for the steel and repaints at frequent intervals. It may well > > be possible to do it much more cheaply than Kasten or Dashew might > > suppose for the sake of argument. > > > > With aluminum you will have to increase thickness of the material by > > 50%, then pay four times as much per pound of material, and if you > > don't live on a coast you will not be able to get marine alloy locally > > and will have to have it trucked in. > > > > Also you are deliberately building a boat that is overly stiff so you > > might have your rig torn off frequently unless you spec significantly > > stronger, more expensive rigging (however to be fair you could build a > > boat with too much ballast in steel too so it is not fair to attribute > > that cost to alloy construction alone). > > > > I wanted to build in alloy too but if you're frugal enough to end up > > here in the first place you probably can't justify aluminum in > > economic terms. I couldn't and I did a lot of math trying. > > > > But I have not actually built anything yet so wtf do I know. > > > > --Ken > > > | 11193|11190|2006-06-25 01:28:04|Aaron Williams|Re: stainless welding|Tom Keep up the good work! The photo are a great inspiration. I used to be a maintenance welder at ammonia and urea fertilizer plant We had miles of 304,316,316L pipe one of the welding test we had was 6" sch 80 pipe rolled on a 45 deg angle the finish cap weld had to be 309L uphill. after 8 years of watching welder take the test I only saw one guy that could make it look good. The trick was only use half the rod cause it was hat and the flux would brake down. I have done 309 inner shield with I think 75/25 mixed gas (Blue-shield) I know 309 hard wire can be done but its not pretty ether. Of course anyone can learn to use a grinder. There is a good downhill rod eutectic is the brand I think I will try to find out what we used. I have been in the Operations department for 6 years now So it getting a little fuzzy must be to much Ammonia. :-) tom wrote: Well I've been welding up stainless with sandvik 309L 16 rods and they weld really nice you're supposed to be able to weld vertical down with them but I found once you get past about 45 degree downhand you get to much slag entrapment. so far I welded up the rudder pindles and the 2 stern mooring bits and I've used over $30 worth. I don't know if its worth it or not, could use 7018 rod or 70S6 solid wire for about $11 a pound cheaper especially on welds that get painted anyway, heck for over 20 years now I've been welding 304 stainless machine hangers to galvanized pipe in the milk barns with 6011 rod and they don't brake they rust a little and when they do get broke off its the stainless that brakes not the weld. Many many years ago I took an advanced welding class at the local college and I ended up dropping it after a couple weeks the instructor was a moron, one of the things he told me was it was imposable to weld stainless to mild steel ! I have been a welder for a lot of years but I think this is the first time for me actually building things out of stainless and I would say its a lot like working with steel once you get the right tools for it. Anyone out there use the 309L wire for mig ? I would like to know how well it works for all position welding and what gas mix works the best. I posted a few more pictures in origamiboats2 of the prop shaft and stuffing box installed, I need to make the engine beds but its 105 degrees out side and feels like 200 in the boat Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus there’s much more to come. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11194|22|2006-06-25 03:55:30|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|It is Virus! Just delete the mail! /Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För Aaron Skickat: den 25 juni 2006 04:07 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats I hope someone can do some research on this file before we all get some sort spyware or virus.... If its plans why is it a .exe file? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Origami Boats 2005.exe > Uploaded by : lindsey_young1423 > Description : 25 full plans - This was a lifesaver for us! - so I wanted to share it :) > > You can access this file at the URL: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Origami%20Boats% 202005.exe > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > lindsey_young1423 > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 1.1594 (20060612) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com| 11195|11190|2006-06-25 08:07:33|thcain@octa4.net.au|Re: stainless welding|On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:48:04 -0700 "tom" wrote: >Well I've been welding up stainless with sandvik 309L 16 > rods > Anyone out there use the 309L wire for mig ? I would >like to know how well it works for all position welding >and what gas mix works the best. Tom, 309LSi MIG wire is readily available, but is usually only economical in the larger roll size. I prefer 0.9mm dia.. Stainshield (a BOC mixed gas product) gives good edge wetting profiles on sections up to 6mm, and can be used with care in verticals. Stainshield is also fine for the usual steel to steel MIG welds so that there is no need to carry two cylinders for less demanding projects. I welded 30X5 flat 316L bar all around the sheer on an Adams 40 using these products. With the bar set horizontally inside the 4mm hull plate top edge, the job was an outside fillet. This worked well because I had the flat bar rolled in a section rolls machine to the approximate curve of the gunwhale before the tacking into place. You are right about the Sandvik 309lMo rods, they are very nice to use, and once you have the joint's root surfaces adequately covered, there is nothing wrong with a standard 316L filler wire if there is plenty on hand and the weld requires further reinforcement. However, my memory says there's not a big price differential between the two types? I will look-up the Stainshield mix (if I have the info.). > | 11196|11174|2006-06-25 10:00:24|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Off Topic BS post|On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 12:58:13PM -0000, Ray wrote: > I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends share > interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like boats ( > kayaks to sailboats ), and to a person, we all LIKE old fixed up cars > more than a new Prius, and there are several of us that are Pilots as > well. > > Since this group shares a love of boats, and the hard-headedness to > spend MUCH more time/money/aggravation to "do it ourselves" - I just > wonder what OTHER interests are shared as well. > > SO - do we have any other sailor/pilot/biker/racer/??? folks out here? Sorry 'bout the late followup - my wife and I are taking a welding class, and since I had to skip a week to teach a class in Montreal, we spent last week doing two sessions a day to catch up (barely time to read my email, no time to respond.) Yeah, ditto here - motorcyclist (we're doing 80 miles a day on my Nighthawk 750 to get to class), liveaboard sailor, scuba diver, amateur pilot, car racer way (back in the 80s), skydiver, lots of other stuff. [shrug] Life gets boring, otherwise. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11197|11174|2006-06-25 22:50:59|Sugar|Re: Off Topic BS post|yep I too have a history for lots of sports. I am a girl. But by age 6 I owned my own minibike. At age 10 I got a Yamaha 80 dirt bike. By age 13 my parents bought property in Adelanto, California and we built the Adelanto TT Motorcycle Race Track. Not only did we help run the gates, flag, etc. but we also all raced bikes. I bought my first street bike at age 18. I loved cruising the West Coast. The ocean has always been my first love. I now own 3 kayaks, a bass boat and a Wild Mustang that I purchased 1 and 1/2 years ago from the Bureau of Land Management. I since broke her. She just turned 3 years old and is FANTASTIC. I love the ocean and all waters first, my horse second and the bikes third. I live in the middle of the Ozarks - no ocean. I miss it. That's why the kayaks and bass boat. Oh on another note, I own a Grand Wagoneer and love going on the Ouray runs - lots of cliffs, high climbing and rough terrain. Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends share > interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like boats ( > kayaks to sailboats ), and to a person, we all LIKE old fixed up cars > more than a new Prius, and there are several of us that are Pilots as > well. > > Since this group shares a love of boats, and the hard-headedness to > spend MUCH more time/money/aggravation to "do it ourselves" - I just > wonder what OTHER interests are shared as well. > > SO - do we have any other sailor/pilot/biker/racer/??? folks out here? > > No point to the discussion other than to satisfy my personal curiosity. > > Ray Kimbro > | 11198|11125|2006-06-25 23:54:29|seeratlas|Re: Aluminum or steel?|Might just be my eyes getting old but I'm not entirely convinced that is an actual photo is of a "real" boat....someone who's an expert with photoshop might have a more qualified opinion. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Have a look at Reyse Marine's site. You will see a Coastal Trawler Yacht drawn by Kasten. > Nice looking little ship in aluminum built by Reyse. I called him and a copy of it would be > $500,000 CDN. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Ask Kasten how many boats he's actually built... or even that have > > been built to his designs....how many are actually in the water... > > > > He writes a fine article. > > > > There are thousands of aluminum boats out there in the water. In your > > locale no doubt there are some that are being used commercially. If > > you really want to know what works, go spend some time with the guys > > actually out there in the water. They are making 'bang for buck' > > decisions on a daily basis. > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brazilnutboat" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I've read that an aluminum boat left unpainted above the > > > > waterline doesn't really cost that much more than steel > > > > when you factor > > > > in the sandblasting and coatings for a steel hull. > > > > > > I think all the people who say this posit extremely expensive coating > > > systems for the steel and repaints at frequent intervals. It may well > > > be possible to do it much more cheaply than Kasten or Dashew might > > > suppose for the sake of argument. > > > > > > With aluminum you will have to increase thickness of the material by > > > 50%, then pay four times as much per pound of material, and if you > > > don't live on a coast you will not be able to get marine alloy locally > > > and will have to have it trucked in. > > > > > > Also you are deliberately building a boat that is overly stiff so you > > > might have your rig torn off frequently unless you spec significantly > > > stronger, more expensive rigging (however to be fair you could build a > > > boat with too much ballast in steel too so it is not fair to attribute > > > that cost to alloy construction alone). > > > > > > I wanted to build in alloy too but if you're frugal enough to end up > > > here in the first place you probably can't justify aluminum in > > > economic terms. I couldn't and I did a lot of math trying. > > > > > > But I have not actually built anything yet so wtf do I know. > > > > > > --Ken > > > > > > | 11199|11125|2006-06-26 00:48:52|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Aluminum or steel?|On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 03:54:28AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Might just be my eyes getting old but I'm not entirely convinced that > is an actual photo is of a "real" boat....someone who's an expert with > photoshop might have a more qualified opinion. I suppose that, if you're really interested, the right thing to do would be to email Reyse and ask. For myself, I can't quite see them going through a very large amount of effort and expense to just come up with an illustration - and I definitely can't imagine them trying to gratuitously deceive their customers; there's no good reason for it, and lots of disincentive. I'm highly experienced in image-editing software, and it's possible to fake literally anything in a picture these days - but it takes a lot of expertise and time to do so, and that means MONEY. There are a number of items in that picture - e.g., the wave patterns coming off the hull, the reflections that show the changing curvature of it, the weld lines in the aluminium, the variations in the metal color, etc. - that imply either an actual photograph or, say, a CIA image expert working for a few hours to create this thing. :) In addition, it's a 24-bit JPG image with a JFIF header - the type of file that is often produced by digital cameras. I'd say that if it walks and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck (besides, the comment in the file header is "Ducky".) :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11200|11200|2006-06-26 02:20:33|Alex Christie|photoshopped trawler|I think the boat is real but they've really "cleaned" the photo in Photoshop, even altering the colours of the ocean. They also touched up the rigging with straight lines to make them stand out. The real rigging was there, but you'll notice in many photos of boats that grey rigging wire often dissappears on a blue-grey background. Advertisers probably have to redraw the rigging on most photos before using in magazines. I play with photoshop a lot and I can see what they did with the water, too; if you put the photo into your viewer and zoom in on the upper portion you'll see the same wavelet pattern replicated in several spots --- they've covered up something in background, perhap a dock, land, or another boat, to make the boat look like it is on the wide ocean. They used the clone stamp tool to replicate patterns from one spot to another. The photo is of a real boat, no doubt, but heavily doctored, making it a little "surreal". Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11201|11201|2006-06-26 20:00:21|tom|Re stainless welding|Thanks for the help on the subject, Its always nice to find out from others that have actually used stainless wire. I called around today to try to find the flux core stainless wire like the blue max from lincoln and no one carries it or knows anything about it, I did have one call back and the guy said he could get a one pound spool of a different brand for $33 ! I thought he was kidding but he wasn't anyway I called an old friend that's a welding supplier and asked his advice and he flat told me don't mess with the flux core that I would be better off just to run the 309L hard wire with the tri mix gas and that it will weld just like the 70S6 steel wire that I use. Nice thing is its available in 2 pound spools so I can run it in my spool gun. I hope it works as good as he said because I ordered some. One of the things I was told many years ago is that you cant paint stainless because if you take the oxygen away it will eat itself up? must have been the same ones that said you cant use stainless on a steel hull below the water line Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11202|11202|2006-06-26 22:34:39|bosman513|Aluminum cleaner for boats|Hi, could anyone give me some recommendation that what is the efficient cleaner and polish for Aluminum boats? Can I export them into other countries? Thanks. Frank| 11203|11203|2006-06-27 09:22:15|Ray|Marinizing(spelling?) automobile engines|I've got a Mercedes 190D that recently had a face-lift courtesy of one of the 4-legged, 100lb rats (AKA Deer) that are plentiful in my area of Virginia. The question NOW is what to do with the car? The Mercedes diesels seem to be reliable, efficient engines in cars, and I was toying with the idea of pulling it, rebuilding it, and using it as the basis for a boat motor. I think I understand the issues w/r/t the water-jackets & salt-water corrosion on the aluminum parts of the engine - so, I'm thinking that fresh-water-cooling would be appropriate for engine longevity. As these cars are present all over the world, I'd THINK that parts availability would be decent - what ELSE should one consider in the decision to marinize an automobile engine? Ray Kimbro| 11204|11174|2006-06-27 09:30:07|dreemer1962|Re: Off Topic BS post|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > I've noticed that my circle of motorcycle racing friends share > interests outside fast bikes - specifically, we ALL like boats ( > kayaks to sailboats ), and to a person, we all LIKE old fixed up cars > more than a new Prius, and there are several of us that are Pilots as > well. > > Since this group shares a love of boats, and the hard-headedness to > spend MUCH more time/money/aggravation to "do it ourselves" - I just > wonder what OTHER interests are shared as well. > > SO - do we have any other sailor/pilot/biker/racer/??? folks out here? > > No point to the discussion other than to satisfy my personal curiosity. > > Ray Kimbro I like diving, (free and scuba). I would also like to get more involved in gliding and / or ultra lights, but barelly find time and money for sailing and bit of diving, so I just go to the nearest sport air field from time to time, pay for individual flights and they let me try some easy turns. Sailing stays my foremost hobby. Milan| 11205|11203|2006-06-27 10:56:01|khooper_fboats|Re: Marinizing(spelling?) automobile engines|Ray, Lots of info on this at boatdesign.net and other sites. I don't know enough to talk about it competently but let me just say that I toyed with the idea of a car engine for a while, until I took a close, slow look at the extensive electronic systems built into an engine installation like that. I'm sure there are auto diesels with minimal electronic/computer-controlled systems but they are probably early 70s vintage. The car you're talking about will have a formidable computer, extensive network of sensors, a high-tech airflow meter, etc. Some of the information the computer requires will not be available in a boat (i.e. the engine talks to the transmission, and the transmission won't be there) so what happens then?. All this stuff is subject to corrosion and replacing all of it would be expensive new, though I suspect there is a lot of cheap used Mercedes stuff out there because they are ubiquitous all over the world as you note. But there are not any junkyards in the middle of the ocean. Well not at the surface. Just getting it all out of the car might be a nightmare. Take a long, careful look at the tapestry of wires and mysterious boxes between your firewall and your dash. You have to take all that out, make sense of it, figure out how to move it to the boat, or figure out how to jettison it without ruining the engine's performance. I know where there are two running-when-pulled Mercedes 2-liter industrial diesels if you want them, you could pick them up for $250 for the lot or less. Total wiring is probably the cables between the alternator and the battery. --Ken| 11206|11203|2006-06-27 13:51:08|brentswain38|Re: Marinizing(spelling?) automobile engines|Older diesel engines make excelent boat engines. All they need is a watercooled manifold and something to match a marine transmission to them, One friend cut the auto tranny off at the right place and welded a plate on it to take the marine tranny.He was worried about the strength of the weld so I told him to weld a plate to the piece he cut off and whack it with a sledge hammer to test it. To centre the tranny on the ploate , you could rig up a router on a compass to machine a groove at the right diameter. You could also centre the tranny with a dial caliper off the rim of the bell housing before drilling the bolt holes for the tranny. With electonics you'd have to, piece by piece, eliminate anything that the engine can run without. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Ray, > > Lots of info on this at boatdesign.net and other sites. I don't know > enough to talk about it competently but let me just say that I toyed > with the idea of a car engine for a while, until I took a close, slow > look at the extensive electronic systems built into an engine > installation like that. > > I'm sure there are auto diesels with minimal > electronic/computer-controlled systems but they are probably early 70s > vintage. The car you're talking about will have a formidable computer, > extensive network of sensors, a high-tech airflow meter, etc. Some of > the information the computer requires will not be available in a boat > (i.e. the engine talks to the transmission, and the transmission won't > be there) so what happens then?. > > All this stuff is subject to corrosion and replacing all of it would > be expensive new, though I suspect there is a lot of cheap used > Mercedes stuff out there because they are ubiquitous all over the > world as you note. But there are not any junkyards in the middle of > the ocean. Well not at the surface. > > Just getting it all out of the car might be a nightmare. Take a long, > careful look at the tapestry of wires and mysterious boxes between > your firewall and your dash. You have to take all that out, make sense > of it, figure out how to move it to the boat, or figure out how to > jettison it without ruining the engine's performance. > > I know where there are two running-when-pulled Mercedes 2-liter > industrial diesels if you want them, you could pick them up for $250 > for the lot or less. Total wiring is probably the cables between the > alternator and the battery. > > --Ken > | 11207|11190|2006-06-27 14:21:15|brentswain38|Re: stainless welding|I found that with the runnyness of stainless rods , the best way to weld uphill is to break the arc, building the weld up drop buy drop , letting each drop cool very briefly( tack tack tack). You get the timing easily and altho the slag looks like chickenshit, the weld underneath can look as smooth as a horizontal weld.The briefest break to let the blob very slightly cool is all it takes. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Well I've been welding up stainless with sandvik 309L 16 rods and they weld really nice you're supposed to be able to weld vertical down with them but I found once you get past about 45 degree downhand you get to much slag entrapment. > so far I welded up the rudder pindles and the 2 stern mooring bits and I've used over $30 worth. I don't know if its worth it or not, could use 7018 rod or 70S6 solid wire for about $11 a pound cheaper especially on welds that get painted anyway, heck for over 20 years now I've been welding 304 stainless machine hangers to galvanized pipe in the milk barns with 6011 rod and they don't brake they rust a little and when they do get broke off its the stainless that brakes not the weld. Many many years ago I took an advanced welding class at the local college and I ended up dropping it after a couple weeks the instructor was a moron, one of the things he told me was it was imposable to weld stainless to mild steel ! > I have been a welder for a lot of years but I think this is the first time for me actually building things out of stainless and I would say its a lot like working with steel once you get the right tools for it. > Anyone out there use the 309L wire for mig ? I would like to know how well it works for all position welding and what gas mix works the best. > I posted a few more pictures in origamiboats2 of the prop shaft and stuffing box installed, I need to make the engine beds but its 105 degrees out side and feels like 200 in the boat > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11208|11208|2006-06-27 18:04:16|Alex|update on origamiboats site|Hi all, your moderator surfacing here to announce that a new website is in the works that I hope to be a good permanent home for all things origami boatbuilding, including a place to watch clips from the DVD. I changed the front page photo here to my DVD cover, but I'll put more interesting photos on as soon as I get my personal site up and running. Summer suddenly arrived here, and the steel on my boat is sizzling enough to fry eggs -- hoping for cooler weather to get lots done in advance of ballasting and painting, plus more filming. Alex| 11209|11190|2006-06-27 20:12:01|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: stainless welding|On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:54:39PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I found that with the runnyness of stainless rods , the best way to > weld uphill is to break the arc, building the weld up drop buy > drop , letting each drop cool very briefly( tack tack tack). You > get the timing easily and altho the slag looks like chickenshit, the > weld underneath can look as smooth as a horizontal weld.The briefest > break to let the blob very slightly cool is all it takes. My wife and I are in the last week of welding school right now - and as it happens, I was just showing her how to work with E309-16 today. In my experience, uphill stainless isn't very hard - as long as you turn the current way down (my rule of thumb is to take it down to where the rod starts to stick, then add ~5 amps; e.g., ~75A for 1/8" rod), hold the rod *really* close to the work, and use the whip-and-pause technique for verticals. If you're running fillet welds, then the inverted-tee or inverted-vee methods work well. All of these are designed to let the pool cool down to prevent runs and drip-out; it sounds like you're doing pretty much the same thing. However, I must say that the methods I've mentioned fail in one important respect: the slag fails to look like "chickenshit"... :) Regards, * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11210|11190|2006-06-27 21:32:48|cunkrich1|Re: stainless welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 05:54:39PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > I found that with the runnyness of stainless rods , the best way to > > weld uphill is to break the arc, building the weld up drop buy > > drop , letting each drop cool very briefly( tack tack tack). You > > get the timing easily and altho the slag looks like chickenshit, the > > weld underneath can look as smooth as a horizontal weld.The briefest > > break to let the blob very slightly cool is all it takes. > > My wife and I are in the last week of welding school right now - and as > it happens, I was just showing her how to work with E309-16 today. In my > experience, uphill stainless isn't very hard - as long as you turn the > current way down (my rule of thumb is to take it down to where the rod > starts to stick, then add ~5 amps; e.g., ~75A for 1/8" rod), hold the > rod *really* close to the work, and use the whip-and-pause technique for > verticals. If you're running fillet welds, then the inverted-tee or > inverted-vee methods work well. All of these are designed to let the > pool cool down to prevent runs and drip-out; it sounds like you're doing > pretty much the same thing. > > However, I must say that the methods I've mentioned fail in one > important respect: the slag fails to look like "chickenshit"... :) > > > Regards, > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > Whip-and-pause technique is only appropriate for lightly coated rods like 6011 and 6010. With heavily coated rods it's a recipe for slag inclusions. And 75A is running way too cold for 1/8 stainless - I would expect a lack of fusion and cold lap, even if the weld looks okay. I would expect the same two problems (slag inclusions, lack of fusion) with Brent's technique. If you say vertical-up isn't hard, then you aren't doing it correctly. There's just no substitute for practice.| 11211|11190|2006-06-27 22:56:36|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: stainless welding|On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 01:13:23AM -0000, cunkrich1 wrote: > > Whip-and-pause technique is only appropriate for lightly coated rods > like 6011 and 6010. With heavily coated rods it's a recipe for slag > inclusions. I'm sure that you have good reasons for saying so, but I've just sent in a couple of "vertical up" test pieces for certification - after bending several previous ones, all of which were passed by my instructor (i.e., no inclusions or porosity.) All of the above were done with 7018 - which has a heavy flux coating - by whipping between the bevels and pausing on the sides. The 2G pipe weld - all except the root pass, of course - is done the same way. > And 75A is running way too cold for 1/8 stainless - I > would expect a lack of fusion and cold lap, even if the weld looks > okay. I've just dug out my Lincoln book, and it quotes the following operating data for their 1/8" Stainweld rods: 308-15 50-100A 310-15 45-95A 347-15 50-100A It looks like 75A is well within range for any of them; taking Lincoln's recommendation for _optimum_ current (20% below maximum for vertical-up), it's still right around the correct figure. Oh, and their recommended procedure for vertical and overhead is "Use only stringer beads made with a slight whip and a circular motion in the crater. Use currents as low as possible." If you have another authoritative reference that says something different, I'd appreciate you telling me what it is. I'm sure that my instructor would like to know as well. > I would expect the same two problems (slag inclusions, lack of > fusion) with Brent's technique. If you say vertical-up isn't hard, > then you aren't doing it correctly. There's just no substitute for > practice. I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't brain surgery either. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11212|11212|2006-06-28 12:23:26|three_1415926|Tahitiana PLANS FOR SALE (original plans 2004 +licence never used)|Tahitiana PLANS FOR SALE (original plans 2004 +licence never used) ~~~THIS IS A MULTICHINE 30'~~~ I've decided to move to fiberglass. 1 set of drawings+docs, also electronic prof generated offset tables, faired one step before plate extraction for CNC cut. I'll send also software and doc to finish the CNC files. Ship tube with drawings, doc, CD to US, Canada. I pay shiping (FeDex or UPS not rush) You pay $100 CND if in Canada, or $100 US if in US. Only moneyorder with Western Union| 11213|11190|2006-06-28 13:36:04|tom|Re: stainless welding|Thanks for the tip Brent I will give it a try, I've use similar techniques with other types of rod but kept the ark going and that sure doesn't seem to work very well with stainless rod Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding >I found that with the runnyness of stainless rods , the best way to > weld uphill is to break the arc, building the weld up drop buy > drop , letting each drop cool very briefly( tack tack tack). You > get the timing easily and altho the slag looks like chickenshit, the > weld underneath can look as smooth as a horizontal weld.The briefest > break to let the blob very slightly cool is all it takes. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Well I've been welding up stainless with sandvik 309L 16 rods > and they weld really nice you're supposed to be able to weld > vertical down with them but I found once you get past about 45 > degree downhand you get to much slag entrapment. >> so far I welded up the rudder pindles and the 2 stern mooring > bits and I've used over $30 worth. I don't know if its worth it or > not, could use 7018 rod or 70S6 solid wire for about $11 a pound > cheaper especially on welds that get painted anyway, heck for over > 20 years now I've been welding 304 stainless machine hangers to > galvanized pipe in the milk barns with 6011 rod and they don't brake > they rust a little and when they do get broke off its the stainless > that brakes not the weld. Many many years ago I took an advanced > welding class at the local college and I ended up dropping it after > a couple weeks the instructor was a moron, one of the things he told > me was it was imposable to weld stainless to mild steel ! >> I have been a welder for a lot of years but I think this is the > first time for me actually building things out of stainless and I > would say its a lot like working with steel once you get the right > tools for it. >> Anyone out there use the 309L wire for mig ? I would like to > know how well it works for all position welding and what gas mix > works the best. >> I posted a few more pictures in origamiboats2 of the prop shaft > and stuffing box installed, I need to make the engine beds but its > 105 degrees out side and feels like 200 in the boat >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11214|11190|2006-06-28 15:00:43|tom|Re: stainless welding|> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good > vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, > four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't > brain surgery either. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * Hello Ben Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a great start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, you will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, IE different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner with a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. These things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still learning and there's nothing easy about it. Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what works in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others kicks in Tom| 11215|11215|2006-06-28 16:24:42|mickeyolaf|Metal Boat Kits Assembly Photos|There is an interesting web site at www.metalboatkits.com. The Dix Pratique 35 is shown being constructed in a series of photos from start of the jig on to the finished hull and deck. Really well done boat construction in steel with discriptive photography. The kits are marketed out of Richmond, BC and this hull is being built in Australia.| 11216|11190|2006-06-28 17:09:06|Wesley Cox|Re: stainless welding|What Brent describes is how I weld mild steel uphill. The text book procedure is the same as what Brent says but while maintaining the arc pulling away to a long arc to let the weld puddle cool a bit. I've been doing it how Brent says for years and I much prefer it to keeping the arc on. I especially wouldn't want to keep the arc going with stainless rod because it's so expensive. Significant waste of filler metal that way. tom wrote: >Thanks for the tip Brent I will give it a try, I've use similar techniques >with other types of rod but kept the ark going and that sure doesn't seem to >work very well with stainless rod >Tom >----- Original Message ----- >From: "brentswain38" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:54 AM >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > > > > >>I found that with the runnyness of stainless rods , the best way to >>weld uphill is to break the arc, building the weld up drop buy >>drop , letting each drop cool very briefly( tack tack tack). You >>get the timing easily and altho the slag looks like chickenshit, the >>weld underneath can look as smooth as a horizontal weld.The briefest >>break to let the blob very slightly cool is all it takes. >>Brent >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> >>>Well I've been welding up stainless with sandvik 309L 16 rods >>> >>> >>and they weld really nice you're supposed to be able to weld >>vertical down with them but I found once you get past about 45 >>degree downhand you get to much slag entrapment. >> >> >>> so far I welded up the rudder pindles and the 2 stern mooring >>> >>> >>bits and I've used over $30 worth. I don't know if its worth it or >>not, could use 7018 rod or 70S6 solid wire for about $11 a pound >>cheaper especially on welds that get painted anyway, heck for over >>20 years now I've been welding 304 stainless machine hangers to >>galvanized pipe in the milk barns with 6011 rod and they don't brake >>they rust a little and when they do get broke off its the stainless >>that brakes not the weld. Many many years ago I took an advanced >>welding class at the local college and I ended up dropping it after >>a couple weeks the instructor was a moron, one of the things he told >>me was it was imposable to weld stainless to mild steel ! >> >> >>> I have been a welder for a lot of years but I think this is the >>> >>> >>first time for me actually building things out of stainless and I >>would say its a lot like working with steel once you get the right >>tools for it. >> >> >>> Anyone out there use the 309L wire for mig ? I would like to >>> >>> >>know how well it works for all position welding and what gas mix >>works the best. >> >> >>> I posted a few more pictures in origamiboats2 of the prop shaft >>> >>> >>and stuffing box installed, I need to make the engine beds but its >>105 degrees out side and feels like 200 in the boat >> >> >>>Tom >>> >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 11217|11190|2006-06-28 17:29:53|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: stainless welding|On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 11:50:54AM -0700, tom wrote: > > > I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good > > vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, > > four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't > > brain surgery either. > > > Hello Ben > Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a great > start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment [smile] Tom, I do my best to never take kindly-intended advice the wrong way. I agree that in school, they control all the variables and all you've got to do is weld; heck, I've lived on a steel boat for the past 7 years or so (and have been living aboard for more than twice that) and know about all those "little" problems. That's why my wife and I are taking this course: I've been welding for a while, but never had any exposure to the formal stuff, and she's never had anything to do with welding before (and is doing overhead now! :) I've tried to do the 3-feet-away, bent-rod stuff - there's a particularly annoying chunk of pipe that I need to replace right now, being used as a toerail 3" off the deck, and the thought of having to do an overhead butt joint while it's underfoot, with a bent rod to reach the seam and a mirror so I can see it is giving me the willies. I sure wish you were here to show me how to get around it. :))) > you will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot > different, IE different welder, different brands of rod , worst most > uncomfortable positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in > a blind corner with a bent rod just to get around the backside.the > list can go on and on. These things you don't learn in school and > sure as heck not in a week. I'm a self employed certified welder for > way over 20 years and I'm still learning and there's nothing easy > about it. Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and > go for what works in a given situation, This is when experience and > advice from others kicks in I'll definitely agree with all of that. Overall, experience is the best teacher... even though it kills all of its students in the end. :) Regards, * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11218|11190|2006-06-28 19:48:36|tom|Re: stainless welding|Ben I would be glad to help, Youre not by any chance here in central California? I can tell you how I would do it 3" is not to bad to get under If "and thats a big if " you can lay to the sides of it you dont need a mirror what Ive done is bend the end 3-1/2" of the rod at about a 60 degree angle and laying down next to pipe start welding toward the bottom of the pipe where you can just see it welding then start welding down and carry the same speed and sound till youre past bottom center and then do the same from the other side, youre actualy going to be welding down with a push angle on the rod, make sure you have clean tight fitup "no gaps" on the pipe and use 6011 1/8 or 5/32 rods . Welding from above with a mirror would be a bit trickey for anyone Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 11:50:54AM -0700, tom wrote: >> >> > I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >> > vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per >> > day, >> > four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >> > brain surgery either. >> >> >> Hello Ben >> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >> great >> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment > > [smile] Tom, I do my best to never take kindly-intended advice the wrong > way. I agree that in school, they control all the variables and all > you've got to do is weld; heck, I've lived on a steel boat for the past > 7 years or so (and have been living aboard for more than twice that) and > know about all those "little" problems. That's why my wife and I are > taking this course: I've been welding for a while, but never had any > exposure to the formal stuff, and she's never had anything to do with > welding before (and is doing overhead now! :) I've tried to do the > 3-feet-away, bent-rod stuff - there's a particularly annoying chunk of > pipe that I need to replace right now, being used as a toerail 3" off > the deck, and the thought of having to do an overhead butt joint while > it's underfoot, with a bent rod to reach the seam and a mirror so I can > see it is giving me the willies. I sure wish you were here to show me > how to get around it. :))) > >> you will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot >> different, IE different welder, different brands of rod , worst most >> uncomfortable positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in >> a blind corner with a bent rod just to get around the backside.the >> list can go on and on. These things you don't learn in school and >> sure as heck not in a week. I'm a self employed certified welder for >> way over 20 years and I'm still learning and there's nothing easy >> about it. Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and >> go for what works in a given situation, This is when experience and >> advice from others kicks in > > I'll definitely agree with all of that. Overall, experience is the best > teacher... even though it kills all of its students in the end. :) > > > Regards, > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11219|11190|2006-06-28 21:41:33|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: stainless welding|On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 04:46:41PM -0700, tom wrote: > Ben > I would be glad to help, Youre not by any chance here in central > California? Heh. No - I just wish I was. My wife and I are both Californians at heart - she is a Los Angelena, and I lived all over southern CA for many years. We're in Florida right now, but planning to return to CA via the Panama Canal, etc. sometime in the next couple of years. > I can tell you how I would do it 3" is not to bad to get under If "and > thats a big if " you can lay to the sides of it you dont need a mirror what > Ive done is bend the end 3-1/2" of the rod at about a 60 degree angle and > laying down next to pipe start welding toward the bottom of the pipe where > you can just see it welding then start welding down and carry the same speed > and sound till youre past bottom center and then do the same from the other Ah - "carry the same speed and sound" - that's the part I was missing... thanks! > side, youre actualy going to be welding down with a push angle on the rod, > make sure you have clean tight fitup "no gaps" on the pipe and use 6011 1/8 > or 5/32 rods . Welding from above with a mirror would be a bit trickey for > anyone I got you. Thanks, Tom - I'll be happy to stand you a beer if we ever meet (and I do teach classes in the SF/Pleasanton area on occasion; if you're anywhere near there, do let me know.) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11220|11220|2006-06-29 01:58:57|jericoera|Sailing performance|Sailing performance I am still curious to find people that own Swain boats that can constructively critique the sailing and handling characteristics of the vessel, No vessel is perfect and it would be good to know what attributes could be improved and which attributes are already top flight. For example, some people put more ballast in the vessel. We already know bilge keels will allow you to park in some anchorages that may otherwise be impossible. That would be a plus. Just curious how the boats perform in open ocean Carl McIntosh shakeena@...| 11221|11221|2006-06-29 12:55:53|johnmcjhn|cruising stories|Anyone able to tell me where I can read about some long distance cruising in an origami boat?| 11222|11190|2006-06-30 09:34:28|woodcraftssuch|Re: stainless welding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: "heck for over 20 years now I've been welding 304 stainless machine hangers to galvanized pipe in the milk barns with 6011 rod and they don't brake they rust a little and when they do get broke off its the stainless that brakes not the weld." I don't do a lot of welding and I'm sure everybody knows welding galvanised metals is an extreme hazard, fume-wise, and can ruin your life in a matter of minutes, so I won't mention that. In another forum the subject of stainless fuel tanks came up so I posted this message... "We were redoing a 40' powerboat and the guy had two 3'x3'x8' stainless diesel fuel tanks custom built to fit just so for some horrendous amount of money and we had no sooner installed and plumbed them when some official 'authority' happened by and said something like "You know you can't do that , don't you?" At least he didn't wait until we put the deck in. He pointed out some code that limited stainless fuel tanks to 20 gallons and only to be made cylindrical, like a water heater tank on its side. Something to do with welding stainless made the metal brittle and prone to fatigue cracks in the areas of the welds. That was 10 years ago and they might have changed the regs, but you should find out first. Sam" A guy that has a better idea of what he's talking about then posted this..... "There's stainless and then there's stainless. Not all Stainless Steels are created equal. Use a 300 series. ABYC, ISO and others recommend 316L or 317L. These are the best for the marine environment. However, that's only part of it. Now for the rest of the story. Stainless steel is subject to crevice corrosion, particularly in the welds. ABYC for years has recommended that SS tanks be 20 gals or less and cylindrical with domed ends. That is to minimize the welds and surface area of the tanks. ....They are commonly used on drag boats in the USA. But here's the rub. The are typically mounted out in the open where if they get wet they will dry almost immediately. That's the secret to SS tanks; keeping them dry, and of course on boats that's not an easy task. The Nickel Institute in Canada has done a lot of research on stainless steels and found that if they get wet AND STAY WET they corrode. If they dry out right away they don't corrode or corrosion is kept to a minimum. .....By the way, when making any metal tank make sure you don't use disimilar metals like brass for the fittings. It'll result in galvanic corrosion and eat a hole right through your tank. I've seen tanks that had pinpoint holes all over them from metal filings that fell on or into the tank and weren't cleaned up." So, he mentions crevise corrosion, which I believe is true. But after the "authority" told us it wasn't "recommended", which sort of means "uninsurable", I looked up the AYBC recommendation and I am almost sure it said something about flexing and fatigue failures. Tom's statement about the hangers breaking not at the weld but elsewhere seems to support the idea of fatigue, that somewhere between being moltenised at the weld and unheated farther up the strap, the temper of the stainless has been compromised and become more (or less) brittle and prone to failure. ??? Sam (I posted the last part about dissimilar metals and filings just as an extra bit of miscellaneous information to further fill up everyones brains.:) ) | 11223|11221|2006-06-30 13:00:22|dreemer1962|Re: cruising stories|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "johnmcjhn" wrote: > > Anyone able to tell me where I can read about some long distance > cruising in an origami boat? > http://www.locky.1colony.com/index.html| 11224|11190|2006-06-30 20:53:05|Gary H. Lucas|Re: stainless welding|Tom, Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding vertical up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to fill, vertically up, horizontal, whatever. What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as filler wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the weld puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to the top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > >> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, >> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >> brain surgery either. >> >> >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net >> * > > > Hello Ben > Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a great > start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, > you > will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, > IE > different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable > positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner > with > a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. > These > things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a > self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still > learning > and there's nothing easy about it. > Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what > works > in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others kicks > in > Tom > > | 11225|11190|2006-06-30 22:41:06|tom|Re: stainless welding|Hey Gary Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will use somewhere else eventualy. Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as strong and look a whole lot better. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > Tom, > Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding > vertical > up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to > fill, > vertically up, horizontal, whatever. > > What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as filler > wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the > weld > puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" > hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to > the > top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > > >> >>> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >>> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, >>> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >>> brain surgery either. >>> >>> >>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net >>> * >> >> >> Hello Ben >> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >> great >> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, >> you >> will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, >> IE >> different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable >> positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner >> with >> a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. >> These >> things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a >> self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still >> learning >> and there's nothing easy about it. >> Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what >> works >> in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others >> kicks >> in >> Tom >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11226|11226|2006-06-30 23:24:12|mickeyolaf|Mast Trivia|I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts for 25 years in aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US wholesale. Mark up is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 US on a shared two tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for offshore with all fittings custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion prevention $12,000 Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double spreaders (which is off the plan). Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or polyurethane. He said the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and metals must be isolated from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but can be removed with mast rake. Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could stop my search for a mast.| 11227|11226|2006-06-30 23:42:26|tom|Re: Mast Trivia|Hello Mickey What would it cost you to go steel mast? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts for 25 >years in > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US > wholesale. Mark up > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 US on > a shared two > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for > offshore with all fittings > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion prevention > $12,000 > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double > spreaders (which is off > the plan). > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or > polyurethane. He said > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and metals > must be isolated > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but can be > removed with > mast rake. > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could stop > my search for a > mast. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11228|11190|2006-07-01 00:25:37|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: stainless welding|6011 down hill with 1/8" at 150 amps is what we did on wood stove heat sheilds all the time. lots if tacks and tight then take it fast. Pretty light gage and easy to blow through but when done correct clean. We did the same thing with convayer sides in the sawmill. 7018 could be a fun trick to lurn. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hey Gary > Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten > tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on > new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a > new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will use > somewhere else eventualy. > Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 > ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- > certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down > with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right > and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as > strong and look a whole lot better. > Tom | 11229|11190|2006-07-01 03:01:47|Aaron Williams|Re: stainless welding|My 2cents worth 7018 downhill is the best way I know of to get yourself a bad weld. I have never seen anyone that really knew how to weld even fool with it. I mean why should you that is what 6010 is made for. If you want more tensil streanth go to 7010 or 8010 DC reverse polarty. 6011 is best for AC machines. Simple search brought this up: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/weldrod.html Aaron tom wrote: Hey Gary Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will use somewhere else eventualy. Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as strong and look a whole lot better. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > Tom, > Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding > vertical > up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to > fill, > vertically up, horizontal, whatever. > > What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as filler > wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the > weld > puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" > hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to > the > top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > > >> >>> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >>> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, >>> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >>> brain surgery either. >>> >>> >>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net >>> * >> >> >> Hello Ben >> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >> great >> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, >> you >> will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, >> IE >> different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable >> positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner >> with >> a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. >> These >> things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a >> self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still >> learning >> and there's nothing easy about it. >> Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what >> works >> in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others >> kicks >> in >> Tom >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11230|11190|2006-07-01 03:07:52|Glenn Cramond|Re: stainless welding|Q: What shall I use to weld stainless steel? A: This question, which I actually received from a reader, is unfortunately not sufficiently defined: therefore it is not possible to give a meaningful answer. One must first describe a few parameters to qualify the solution requested. Material: as explained in another page on Stainless Steel Welding (opens a new page), there are many different types of steels loosely responding to this category, but they can be grouped in four or five families having important characteristics in common. Each family/type has to be addressed separately as they behave differently during welding and need specific instructions. Therefore, before tackling a job, one has to know positively or to have analyzed qualitatively the stainless steel type involved, for identifying at least its family. Joint: type and dimensions of the needed joint must be stated. One should pay attention to the deformations that may develop as a consequence of welding and take proper precautions. Process: If we think of a small shop and of an occasional job coming up once in a while, we will try to adapt whatever process is available that will give an acceptable solution. If we have a larger shop with plenty of equipment to choose from, and with experienced workforce with the needed skills, we will be able to select in complete freedom. If we are planning for mass production we will be able to purchase the equipment capable of the most cost effective welding. Consumables need to be suitable both for base material and for process selected. Of the common processes that can be used to weld stainless steels we will consider only three: the Shielded Metal Arc Welding (SMAW) or Manual Metal Arc (MMA) with covered electrodes, see Shielded Metal Arc Welding Tips (Opens a new page). This manual process is the first to think of, if the material is not extremely thin. By using multiple passes one can weld substantial thickness. the Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (GTAW or Tig) with nonconsumable tungsten electrode, see Tig Welding Tips (Opens a new page). This manual or mechanized process can produce very clean welds, as needed for food or pharmaceutical industries. It is not used, generally, for thick materials except for the first pass. the Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW or Mig) with consumable electrode, see Mig Welding Tips (Opens a new page). This process provides higher deposition rate than the two above, and is best used for industrial applications on substantial thickness or over a root pass made by GTAW or GMAW. Can be used for Robotic Arc Welding (Opens a new page). One should note that the old time Oxyacetylene Gas welding process, requiring the use of fluxes for removing the oxidized layer, should not be considered for quality welds. Filler metals for stainless steels are briefly introduced in an article in Practical Welding Letter No.02 for October 2003, visible by clicking on PWL#002. Standards for stainless filler metals are listed in the page on Stainless Steel Welding indicated above. Aaron Williams wrote: My 2cents worth 7018 downhill is the best way I know of to get yourself a bad weld. I have never seen anyone that really knew how to weld even fool with it. I mean why should you that is what 6010 is made for. If you want more tensil streanth go to 7010 or 8010 DC reverse polarty. 6011 is best for AC machines. Simple search brought this up: http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/weldrod.html Aaron tom wrote: Hey Gary Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will use somewhere else eventualy. Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as strong and look a whole lot better. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > Tom, > Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding > vertical > up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to > fill, > vertically up, horizontal, whatever. > > What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as filler > wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the > weld > puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" > hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to > the > top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > > >> >>> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >>> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per day, >>> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >>> brain surgery either. >>> >>> >>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net >>> * >> >> >> Hello Ben >> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >> great >> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, >> you >> will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, >> IE >> different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable >> positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner >> with >> a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. >> These >> things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a >> self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still >> learning >> and there's nothing easy about it. >> Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what >> works >> in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others >> kicks >> in >> Tom >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11231|11190|2006-07-01 09:52:17|tom|Re: stainless welding|Hello Aaron Ive never masterd 7018 downhill eather and cant see a need to, I only brought it up so people know it can and is done. A lot of stuff is writen on welding and are the opinions of the auther not fact. The auther on the link states 6011 AC or DC-streight polairity, thats interesting I guess all the big construction jobs I have done in the last 25 years with 6011 DC+ revese polarity are going to fall apart ! With welding mild steel its the end result that counts and theres a lot of ways to do it Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > My 2cents worth > 7018 downhill is the best way I know of to get yourself a bad weld. I > have never seen anyone that really knew how to weld even fool with it. > I mean why should you that is what 6010 is made for. If you want more > tensil streanth go to 7010 or 8010 DC reverse polarty. > 6011 is best for AC machines. > Simple search brought this up: > http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/weldrod.html > Aaron > > > tom wrote: > Hey Gary > Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten > tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on > new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a > new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will > use > somewhere else eventualy. > Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 > ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- > certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down > with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right > and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as > strong and look a whole lot better. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > >> Tom, >> Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding >> vertical >> up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to >> fill, >> vertically up, horizontal, whatever. >> >> What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as >> filler >> wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the >> weld >> puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" >> hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to >> the >> top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "tom" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding >> >> >>> >>>> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >>>> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per >>>> day, >>>> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >>>> brain surgery either. >>>> >>>> >>>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >>>> http://linuxgazette.net >>>> * >>> >>> >>> Hello Ben >>> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >>> great >>> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, >>> you >>> will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, >>> IE >>> different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable >>> positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner >>> with >>> a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. >>> These >>> things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a >>> self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still >>> learning >>> and there's nothing easy about it. >>> Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what >>> works >>> in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others >>> kicks >>> in >>> Tom >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11232|11226|2006-07-01 11:34:55|mickeyolaf|Re: Mast Trivia|I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel mast weigh? I already have an aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to seek out an aluminum mast to be consistant. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Mickey > What would it cost you to go steel mast? > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia > > > >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts for 25 > >years in > > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US > > wholesale. Mark up > > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 US on > > a shared two > > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for > > offshore with all fittings > > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion prevention > > $12,000 > > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double > > spreaders (which is off > > the plan). > > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or > > polyurethane. He said > > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and metals > > must be isolated > > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but can be > > removed with > > mast rake. > > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could stop > > my search for a > > mast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11233|11233|2006-07-01 12:32:11|Henri Naths|Emailing: big109|Hi all , this came as a news release, I thought someone might be interested. H. The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Shortcut to: http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/big/big109.html Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11234|11226|2006-07-01 14:39:43|tom|Re: Mast Trivia|Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the steel mast would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just wondering if you had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may build larger after Im done with the 26 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel mast weigh? I >already have an > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to seek out an > aluminum > mast to be consistant. > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Mickey >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "mickeyolaf" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia >> >> >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts for >> >25 >> >years in >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US >> > wholesale. Mark up >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 US >> > on >> > a shared two >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for >> > offshore with all fittings >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion >> > prevention >> > $12,000 >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double >> > spreaders (which is off >> > the plan). >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or >> > polyurethane. He said >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and metals >> > must be isolated >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but can >> > be >> > removed with >> > mast rake. >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could >> > stop >> > my search for a >> > mast. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11235|11190|2006-07-01 22:09:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: stainless welding|Tom, When I first learned how to weld ( at 10 years old so I could build a minibike) I was taught by my dad to weld downhill with 7014, which is a drag rod! I could get beautifully smooth welds in the vertical position by welding really fast. However they had very little penetration. You really couldn't run 7014 upwards, it just got huge slag inclusions. I learned to us 7018 from my best friend who was a very good welder. We met on a jobsite where he was welding 3/4" heat tracing lines welded to 6 inch pipe. He was piecing the pipe together with fittings. I was an electrician, and I was pretty good with a pipe bender. I offered to show him how I could follow around the 6" elbows and loop up over the pipe to the other side and return, all in one piece with no welds. The owner of the plant saw me doing this, and told us he wanted the whole plant done the same way. So I installed electrical conduits and heat tracing pipe for the next four months. The guy was a good welder, he had some really tough welds to make in really hard places to reach. He never had a leak, even though were running hot oil through the pipes at 600 degrees, and 100 psi. He taught me how to weld 3/4" sockets fittings the whole 360 degrees in one pass without stopping, using 7018. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > Hey Gary > Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten > tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on > new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a > new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will > use > somewhere else eventualy. > Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 > ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- > certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down > with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right > and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as > strong and look a whole lot better. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > > >> Tom, >> Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding >> vertical >> up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to >> fill, >> vertically up, horizontal, whatever. >> >> What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as >> filler >> wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the >> weld >> puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" >> hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to >> the >> top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "tom" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding >> >> >>> >>>> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >>>> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per >>>> day, >>>> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >>>> brain surgery either. >>>> >>>> >>>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >>>> http://linuxgazette.net >>>> * >>> >>> >>> Hello Ben >>> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >>> great >>> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, >>> you >>> will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, >>> IE >>> different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable >>> positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner >>> with >>> a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. >>> These >>> things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a >>> self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still >>> learning >>> and there's nothing easy about it. >>> Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what >>> works >>> in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others >>> kicks >>> in >>> Tom >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > | 11236|11190|2006-07-02 02:01:42|Henri Naths|Re: stainless welding|Hey all.. my two cents...vertical down with 7018 is a cwb procedure. Do it hot no slag inclusions. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding Tom, When I first learned how to weld ( at 10 years old so I could build a minibike) I was taught by my dad to weld downhill with 7014, which is a drag rod! I could get beautifully smooth welds in the vertical position by welding really fast. However they had very little penetration. You really couldn't run 7014 upwards, it just got huge slag inclusions. I learned to us 7018 from my best friend who was a very good welder. We met on a jobsite where he was welding 3/4" heat tracing lines welded to 6 inch pipe. He was piecing the pipe together with fittings. I was an electrician, and I was pretty good with a pipe bender. I offered to show him how I could follow around the 6" elbows and loop up over the pipe to the other side and return, all in one piece with no welds. The owner of the plant saw me doing this, and told us he wanted the whole plant done the same way. So I installed electrical conduits and heat tracing pipe for the next four months. The guy was a good welder, he had some really tough welds to make in really hard places to reach. He never had a leak, even though were running hot oil through the pipes at 600 degrees, and 100 psi. He taught me how to weld 3/4" sockets fittings the whole 360 degrees in one pass without stopping, using 7018. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > Hey Gary > Yes Ive done the two rod bit mostly when Im just trying to patch rotten > tanks and such together for customers that dont want to spend the money on > new, usualy when Im building somthing new if I make a mistake I just cut a > new piece, looks better and stronger and the piece I cut to short I will > use > somewhere else eventualy. > Does anyone else weld vertical down ? I do all the time with 6011 > ecpesialy on lighter material, a few years ago a local welding inspecter- > certifier told me there was a couple welders certified for vertical down > with 7018. Dont let anyone bullshit you, you can do it, if you do it right > and when you do a vertical outside corner on 12 gage it will be just as > strong and look a whole lot better. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding > > >> Tom, >> Have you ever stick welded with two rods? This talk about welding >> vertical >> up reminded me of it. Especially if you goofed and have a big gap to >> fill, >> vertically up, horizontal, whatever. >> >> What I do is smash the flux off of a second rod and then feed it as >> filler >> wire, like you would Tig welding. The cold wire absorbs heat from the >> weld >> puddle and you can easily fill a large gap without drips. I cut a 1-1/2" >> hand rail vertical pipe about a 1/4" short a while ago. I welded it to >> the >> top rail in one pass using the two rod technique. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "tom" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: stainless welding >> >> >>> >>>> I grant you that last statement; however, I've seen people achieve good >>>> vertical-up welds with less than a week of practice (four hours per >>>> day, >>>> four-day week, that is.) It's neither trivial nor obvious, but it isn't >>>> brain surgery either. >>>> >>>> >>>> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >>>> http://linuxgazette.net >>>> * >>> >>> >>> Hello Ben >>> Don't take this the wrong way , what you are learning in school is a >>> great >>> start but what you're doing there is pretty much a perfect environment, >>> you >>> will find out when you get into the real situation its a lot different, >>> IE >>> different welder, different brands of rod , worst most uncomfortable >>> positions, hot cold wet , reached out 3 feet welding in a blind corner >>> with >>> a bent rod just to get around the backside.the list can go on and on. >>> These >>> things you don't learn in school and sure as heck not in a week. I'm a >>> self employed certified welder for way over 20 years and I'm still >>> learning >>> and there's nothing easy about it. >>> Some times you have to throw away the procedures book and go for what >>> works >>> in a given situation, This is when experience and advice from others >>> kicks >>> in >>> Tom >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11237|11237|2006-07-02 11:19:25|shawnbantingkillam|cat design and fixing somone else's mistakes|Ok now I know that these questions are not really the province of this group but I have been impressed by the bredth of knowledge expressed herin so here they are anyway. I am very confused as to the basics of multihull hull design. Seeing as they are meant to be planning hulls not displacement why are they almost entirely long thin displacement designs. Seeing as cats are almost always compared to windsurfers in the literature one would expect them to be essentially two windsurfers tied together. Maybe a bit of a prow to smooth out the bouncing but essentially a windsurfer. Can anyone explain this to me or point me to some material that explains this, preferably without a whole lot of calculus. my brain hurts when I have to do calculus. 2. what is the general consensus or anyone's opinion for that matter on getting a boat that someone else has started and finishing it. there is almost a hundred percent correlation between these products and divorce which might be a clue. I have also been looking a couple of boats (one steel and one plastic) where the builders have done a terrific job on the hull and superstructure but the interior looks like they just got bored with building and wanted to get out there and sail. Which may in fact be the case but it doesn't work for my needs. (I have some delusions about chartering and the chartering classes want their floating bedroom to look pretty) Thank you in advance for your considered opinions. shawn| 11238|11226|2006-07-02 13:18:57|mickeyolaf|Re: Mast Trivia|I don't know but Brent would. I know right now u can buy a complete 35" aluminum mast ready to stand for $550-600 from US Spars special deals web site. I've been watching their site for longer ones but they are few and far between. There is alot more to a mast than the tube. I so far have bought a trilight/anchor light, two triple spinlocks, 2 Anderson winches, six halyard exits, VHS antenna, spreader/steaming, deck light combo, 8 Norseman terminals, two ball tangs, 4 cleats, two rolls of 12mm braided no stretch for halyards, nine turnbuckles, a dozen norseman terminals and toggles to go with them, forestay release, wind speed/direction indicator, 60' VHF cable, solid boom vang, backstay adjuster, Harken Mk 3 furling, a roll of 316 one by nineteen 5/ 16 ss wire, about 20 blocks, spinnaker pole and track and on and on. Before anyone slanders me I've been collecting equipment for 5 years and none was purchased retail. Sales, swap meets, buy and sell, word of mouth and from Chimo Marine which went out of business here and was selling 20 cents on the dollar. Even wholesalers bought stock from them. I may actually have to break down one of these days and pay too much for a 50' tube as I am running out of time to rig up and want to be sailing next sumer. The rigger I talked to the other day commented that Swain builders all seem to collect all of the parts beforehand or make stuff themselves and in doing so take the profit and incentive to do the job away from the mastbuilder. He has only built one Swain mast, for a 36 here in BC and the guy was like me showing up with the add ons. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the steel mast > would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just wondering if you > had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may build larger > after Im done with the 26 > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel mast weigh? I > >already have an > > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to seek out an > > aluminum > > mast to be consistant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> > >> Hello Mickey > >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "mickeyolaf" > >> To: > >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia > >> > >> > >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts for > >> >25 > >> >years in > >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US > >> > wholesale. Mark up > >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 US > >> > on > >> > a shared two > >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for > >> > offshore with all fittings > >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion > >> > prevention > >> > $12,000 > >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double > >> > spreaders (which is off > >> > the plan). > >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or > >> > polyurethane. He said > >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and metals > >> > must be isolated > >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but can > >> > be > >> > removed with > >> > mast rake. > >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could > >> > stop > >> > my search for a > >> > mast. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11239|11237|2006-07-02 13:41:38|tom|Re: cat design and fixing somone else's mistakes|Hello Shawn I cant awnser the mutihull question but as far as buying a unfinished hull, I would say its a good way to save some money and a lot of building time. from what Ive seen theres some that get started and loose interest after a while and move on to something else for all kinds of reasons, at that point a lot are just happy to get it hauled off or sell it dirt cheap ie a lot less than just the materials cost. The interiors of the boats from what I have been told take longer to build than the rest of the boat, I still have a while before I start the interior on mine but I will more than likely go sailing the first time without the interior or with just part done. Ive been teasing the wife about it told her we were going to put a couple bean bags in and use a candle for lights Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "shawnbantingkillam" To: Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:16 AM Subject: [origamiboats] cat design and fixing somone else's mistakes > Ok now I know that these questions are not really the province of > this group but I have been impressed by the bredth of knowledge > expressed herin so here they are anyway. > > I am very confused as to the basics of multihull hull design. Seeing > as they are meant to be planning hulls not displacement why are they > almost entirely long thin displacement designs. Seeing as cats are > almost always compared to windsurfers in the literature one would > expect them to be essentially two windsurfers tied together. Maybe a > bit of a prow to smooth out the bouncing but essentially a > windsurfer. Can anyone explain this to me or point me to some > material that explains this, preferably without a whole lot of > calculus. my brain hurts when I have to do calculus. > > 2. what is the general consensus or anyone's opinion for that matter > on getting a boat that someone else has started and finishing it. > there is almost a hundred percent correlation between these products > and divorce which might be a clue. I have also been looking a couple > of boats (one steel and one plastic) where the builders have done a > terrific job on the hull and superstructure but the interior looks > like they just got bored with building and wanted to get out there > and sail. Which may in fact be the case but it doesn't work for my > needs. (I have some delusions about chartering and the chartering > classes want their floating bedroom to look pretty) > > Thank you in advance for your considered opinions. > > shawn > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11240|11237|2006-07-02 14:33:47|Wesley Cox|Re: cat design and fixing somone else's mistakes|A multi-hull can be planing or displacement, depending on if it has planing hulls or displacement hulls. Some catamarans have planing hulls because the cat concept can readily handle enough sail power to plane, but they don't have to be planing hulls. shawnbantingkillam wrote: >Ok now I know that these questions are not really the province of >this group but I have been impressed by the bredth of knowledge >expressed herin so here they are anyway. > >I am very confused as to the basics of multihull hull design. Seeing >as they are meant to be planning hulls not displacement why are they >almost entirely long thin displacement designs. Seeing as cats are >almost always compared to windsurfers in the literature one would >expect them to be essentially two windsurfers tied together. Maybe a >bit of a prow to smooth out the bouncing but essentially a >windsurfer. Can anyone explain this to me or point me to some >material that explains this, preferably without a whole lot of >calculus. my brain hurts when I have to do calculus. > >2. what is the general consensus or anyone's opinion for that matter >on getting a boat that someone else has started and finishing it. >there is almost a hundred percent correlation between these products >and divorce which might be a clue. I have also been looking a couple >of boats (one steel and one plastic) where the builders have done a >terrific job on the hull and superstructure but the interior looks >like they just got bored with building and wanted to get out there >and sail. Which may in fact be the case but it doesn't work for my >needs. (I have some delusions about chartering and the chartering >classes want their floating bedroom to look pretty) > >Thank you in advance for your considered opinions. > >shawn > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 11241|11226|2006-07-02 17:39:22|tom|Re: Mast Trivia|I went to US spars website and ther showing a 35 foot mast with fittings for $600 seems to good to be true and there address is in Frorida, to get it shipped to California would be expensive, I will see if I can get ahold of them next week and find out how complete it is. I have been planing on building a steel mast so I can keep everything steel. I keep telling myself I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and blocks, ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much simpler and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an inboard, I guess thats the way it goes Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >I don't know but Brent would. I know right now u can buy a complete 35" >aluminum mast > ready to stand for $550-600 from US Spars special deals web site. I've > been watching their > site for longer ones but they are few and far between. > There is alot more to a mast than the tube. I so far have bought a > trilight/anchor light, two > triple spinlocks, 2 Anderson winches, six halyard exits, VHS antenna, > spreader/steaming, > deck light combo, 8 Norseman terminals, two ball tangs, 4 cleats, two > rolls of 12mm > braided no stretch for halyards, nine turnbuckles, a dozen norseman > terminals and > toggles to go with them, forestay release, wind speed/direction indicator, > 60' VHF cable, > solid boom vang, backstay adjuster, Harken Mk 3 furling, a roll of 316 one > by nineteen 5/ > 16 ss wire, about 20 blocks, spinnaker pole and track and on and on. > Before anyone > slanders me I've been collecting equipment for 5 years and none was > purchased retail. > Sales, swap meets, buy and sell, word of mouth and from Chimo Marine which > went out of > business here and was selling 20 cents on the dollar. Even wholesalers > bought stock from > them. > I may actually have to break down one of these days and pay too much for a > 50' tube as I > am running out of time to rig up and want to be sailing next sumer. > The rigger I talked to the other day commented that Swain builders all > seem to collect all > of the parts beforehand or make stuff themselves and in doing so take the > profit and > incentive to do the job away from the mastbuilder. He has only built one > Swain mast, for a > 36 here in BC and the guy was like me showing up with the add ons. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the steel mast >> would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just wondering if you >> had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may build >> larger >> after Im done with the 26 >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "mickeyolaf" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> >> >> >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel mast weigh? >> >I >> >already have an >> > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to seek out >> > an >> > aluminum >> > mast to be consistant. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello Mickey >> >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? >> >> Tom >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "mickeyolaf" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia >> >> >> >> >> >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts >> >> >for >> >> >25 >> >> >years in >> >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US >> >> > wholesale. Mark up >> >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 >> >> > US >> >> > on >> >> > a shared two >> >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for >> >> > offshore with all fittings >> >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion >> >> > prevention >> >> > $12,000 >> >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double >> >> > spreaders (which is off >> >> > the plan). >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or >> >> > polyurethane. He said >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and >> >> > metals >> >> > must be isolated >> >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but >> >> > can >> >> > be >> >> > removed with >> >> > mast rake. >> >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could >> >> > stop >> >> > my search for a >> >> > mast. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11242|11237|2006-07-02 19:03:19|Alex Christie|Re: cat design and fixing somone else's mistakes|Shawn, Here's loosely what I know about multis from my limited experience and reading: Most cruising multihulls are displacement hulls. They are faster because they are long and thin, so often can exceed the speed of monohulls of similar length, like pushing a needle through the water compared to pushing a fat log. A cruising multi has to be longer than a mono in order to carry equivalent food, water and crew, or it'll bog down and be no faster than a mono. Some small multihulls have planing hulls, and some have displacement hulls; my father had a semi-planing catamaran and it was pretty fast for a small package (just 18 feet long), but interestingly the Hobie cat, with its two thin hulls that slice the water (displacement) is also fast. Any cat or trimaran loaded to the gills with cruising gear, food, water, and people will be a displacement hull, even if it started out as a semi-planing hull! Chris White's book, I think called "The Cruising Multihull", is an excellent primer on all things multi -- get it from the library or bookstore and plow through it -- many answers in it. Go sailing offshore on a multi before you plunk down your money to build or buy...then decide if you can handle the jerky movements as it bangs along at high speed. They accellerate and deccellerate constantly because they are light, which can be pretty wearing on the crew, unless you are sailing a heavy James Wharram catamaran. Cruising on one in the Caribbean would be great fun, but I wonder about long ocean crossings in heavy seas. Mah 2 cents. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: shawnbantingkillam To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:16 AM Subject: [origamiboats] cat design and fixing somone else's mistakes Ok now I know that these questions are not really the province of this group but I have been impressed by the bredth of knowledge expressed herin so here they are anyway. I am very confused as to the basics of multihull hull design. Seeing as they are meant to be planning hulls not displacement why are they almost entirely long thin displacement designs. Seeing as cats are almost always compared to windsurfers in the literature one would expect them to be essentially two windsurfers tied together. Maybe a bit of a prow to smooth out the bouncing but essentially a windsurfer. Can anyone explain this to me or point me to some material that explains this, preferably without a whole lot of calculus. my brain hurts when I have to do calculus. 2. what is the general consensus or anyone's opinion for that matter on getting a boat that someone else has started and finishing it. there is almost a hundred percent correlation between these products and divorce which might be a clue. I have also been looking a couple of boats (one steel and one plastic) where the builders have done a terrific job on the hull and superstructure but the interior looks like they just got bored with building and wanted to get out there and sail. Which may in fact be the case but it doesn't work for my needs. (I have some delusions about chartering and the chartering classes want their floating bedroom to look pretty) Thank you in advance for your considered opinions. shawn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11243|11243|2006-07-03 22:31:11|khooper_fboats|Pulling Hull Together|I've been doing the second model of the Tanton 45 over the past few days, this one is scaled to fit an artist's poseable figure so is roughly 7.5 feet long. I noticed something today that struck me and I want to see if it's one of those things that only works in a model or whether it might be applicable to full-scale steel construction: When constructing the first hull half I pulled the hull together with duct tape, using roughly the same sequence that is conventional for an origami hull, i.e. pulling from inside the "canoe". This entailed a good bit of fiddling, plates riding over, having to lean on the model and force it together, ten pound lead weights, etc. Eventually I got it held together with fillets of epoxy but it was a bitch. I know from Alex's video that it's sort of a bitch in real life too. =^ ) The second hull half I pulled it together from the opposite side, i.e. around the OUTside of the canoe. I had to show it which way I wanted it to bow, but after that first nudge, it was amazing how easily it pulled together. The fact that the "straps" were on the tension side made it prety much impossible for the plates to do anything except butt up exactly the way they should. It was much easier and much, much faster, and the second side was fairer when finished. Would this work in a full-size hull? I know it would be a pain getting come-alongs pushed underneath the plate on the ground but they are cheap, you could use six or eight of them at once to avoid having to scoot a single one all along the seam you're working on... Am I making sense? --Ken| 11244|11244|2006-07-04 00:28:18|sunbearone|Cats and Masts|1. Masts--Brent Swains book has a description for building a mast out of 2- 20 pieces of steel pipe with all fittings. 2. Cat sources. I own a wharram Tangaroa iv. bought it used and saved all the building--cheap. Lots of unfinished hulls about. google----"polynesian catamaran association" for more info www.pca-seapeople.org has a great magazine with ads www.multihulls.uk.com/wharram/ Scott Brown is a great help and a great site to see used cats for sale Links--www.multihullpages.com/Links.html Forum: www.themultihull.com Just looking through the wharram site and their plans packages can be a great help www.wharram.com/ 3. Books-- Case for the cruising timaran--Jim Brown--a must read for everyone The Capsize Bugaboo--a collection fo essays by many multihull designers Catamarans in closeup--Patrick boyd I have the last 2 and will send if you pay postage. Names: Derek Kelsall, Newick, Marples, Gougeon (west system epoxy) I love my boat but really like the strength of Brent Swain hulls-- especially in these log infested NW coast waters. Mark of Mau| 11246|11221|2006-07-04 14:51:33|brentswain38|Re: cruising stories|Don Shore's book "Around the World on Viski" is a story about his circumnavigation on one of my 36 footers , a great book, hard to put down.Harbour Chandlers in Nanaimo has it. The "Northwest passage on ten dollars a day" by George Hone and another book by Len Sherman on the same trip are also available at Harbour Chandlers in Nanaimo. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "johnmcjhn" wrote: > > Anyone able to tell me where I can read about some long distance > cruising in an origami boat? > | 11247|11243|2006-07-04 15:05:15|brentswain38|Re: Pulling Hull Together|It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the centreline , but nowhere else. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I've been doing the second model of the Tanton 45 over the past few > days, this one is scaled to fit an artist's poseable figure so is > roughly 7.5 feet long. I noticed something today that struck me and I > want to see if it's one of those things that only works in a model or > whether it might be applicable to full-scale steel construction: > > When constructing the first hull half I pulled the hull together with > duct tape, using roughly the same sequence that is conventional for an > origami hull, i.e. pulling from inside the "canoe". This entailed a > good bit of fiddling, plates riding over, having to lean on the model > and force it together, ten pound lead weights, etc. Eventually I got > it held together with fillets of epoxy but it was a bitch. I know from > Alex's video that it's sort of a bitch in real life too. > =^ ) > > The second hull half I pulled it together from the opposite side, i.e. > around the OUTside of the canoe. I had to show it which way I wanted > it to bow, but after that first nudge, it was amazing how easily it > pulled together. The fact that the "straps" were on the tension side > made it prety much impossible for the plates to do anything except > butt up exactly the way they should. It was much easier and much, much > faster, and the second side was fairer when finished. > > Would this work in a full-size hull? I know it would be a pain getting > come-alongs pushed underneath the plate on the ground but they are > cheap, you could use six or eight of them at once to avoid having to > scoot a single one all along the seam you're working on... > > Am I making sense? > > --Ken > | 11248|11220|2006-07-04 15:15:05|brentswain38|Re: Sailing performance|Costa Vida just arrived in Prince Rupert from a 2 year Pacific circumnavigation. They should be on the south coast in late summer or early fall.They'll be a good source. Steve sailed the Silas Crosby to Mexico , Hawaii and back as well as a lot of BC cruising. Carl should be back from Mexico and in the low rent district this fall. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jericoera" wrote: > > Sailing performance > > I am still curious to find people that own Swain boats that can > constructively critique the sailing and handling characteristics of > the vessel, No vessel is perfect and it would be good to know what > attributes could be improved and which attributes are already top > flight. > > For example, some people put more ballast in the vessel. We already > know bilge keels will allow you to park in some anchorages that may > otherwise be impossible. That would be a plus. > > Just curious how the boats perform in open ocean > > Carl McIntosh > shakeena@... > | 11249|11226|2006-07-04 15:37:08|brentswain38|Re: Mast Trivia|We don't owe mast builders or anyone else a living. If they want welfare they should go to the welfare office. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I don't know but Brent would. I know right now u can buy a complete 35" aluminum mast > ready to stand for $550-600 from US Spars special deals web site. I've been watching their > site for longer ones but they are few and far between. > There is alot more to a mast than the tube. I so far have bought a trilight/anchor light, two > triple spinlocks, 2 Anderson winches, six halyard exits, VHS antenna, spreader/steaming, > deck light combo, 8 Norseman terminals, two ball tangs, 4 cleats, two rolls of 12mm > braided no stretch for halyards, nine turnbuckles, a dozen norseman terminals and > toggles to go with them, forestay release, wind speed/direction indicator, 60' VHF cable, > solid boom vang, backstay adjuster, Harken Mk 3 furling, a roll of 316 one by nineteen 5/ > 16 ss wire, about 20 blocks, spinnaker pole and track and on and on. Before anyone > slanders me I've been collecting equipment for 5 years and none was purchased retail. > Sales, swap meets, buy and sell, word of mouth and from Chimo Marine which went out of > business here and was selling 20 cents on the dollar. Even wholesalers bought stock from > them. > I may actually have to break down one of these days and pay too much for a 50' tube as I > am running out of time to rig up and want to be sailing next sumer. > The rigger I talked to the other day commented that Swain builders all seem to collect all > of the parts beforehand or make stuff themselves and in doing so take the profit and > incentive to do the job away from the mastbuilder. He has only built one Swain mast, for a > 36 here in BC and the guy was like me showing up with the add ons. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the steel mast > > would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just wondering if you > > had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may build larger > > after Im done with the 26 > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "mickeyolaf" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > > > > >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel mast weigh? I > > >already have an > > > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to seek out an > > > aluminum > > > mast to be consistant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello Mickey > > >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? > > >> Tom > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "mickeyolaf" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia > > >> > > >> > > >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts for > > >> >25 > > >> >years in > > >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US > > >> > wholesale. Mark up > > >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 US > > >> > on > > >> > a shared two > > >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for > > >> > offshore with all fittings > > >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion > > >> > prevention > > >> > $12,000 > > >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double > > >> > spreaders (which is off > > >> > the plan). > > >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or > > >> > polyurethane. He said > > >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and metals > > >> > must be isolated > > >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but can > > >> > be > > >> > removed with > > >> > mast rake. > > >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could > > >> > stop > > >> > my search for a > > >> > mast. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11250|11226|2006-07-04 16:01:30|Alex Christie|steel mast vs alu|I heard that one of the BS36 owners said that after replacing his steel tube mast with alu he hardly noticed any difference in performance. I think to get the same strength the Aluminum mast still has to have a fairly thick wall, so it's not a featherweight. It does weigh less, so you'd think it would make a large difference -- can some BS 36 owners chime in with their expriences with steel vs aluminum masts on their boats? Steel masted 36's have already done substantial offshore work, and a steel tube mast definitely gets you on the water without having to depend on luck to scrounge a 47 foot used alu mast! Just order your tubes and go for it! Alex On 4-Jul-06, at 12:00 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > We don't owe mast builders or anyone else a living. If they want > welfare they should go to the welfare office. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > I don't know but Brent would. I know right now u can buy a > complete 35" aluminum mast > > ready to stand for $550-600 from US Spars special deals web site. > I've been watching their > > site for longer ones but they are few and far between. > > There is alot more to a mast than the tube. I so far have bought a > trilight/anchor light, two > > triple spinlocks, 2 Anderson winches, six halyard exits, VHS > antenna, spreader/steaming, > > deck light combo, 8 Norseman terminals, two ball tangs, 4 cleats, > two rolls of 12mm > > braided no stretch for halyards, nine turnbuckles, a dozen > norseman terminals and > > toggles to go with them, forestay release, wind speed/direction > indicator, 60' VHF cable, > > solid boom vang, backstay adjuster, Harken Mk 3 furling, a roll of > 316 one by nineteen 5/ > > 16 ss wire, about 20 blocks, spinnaker pole and track and on and > on. Before anyone > > slanders me I've been collecting equipment for 5 years and none > was purchased retail. > > Sales, swap meets, buy and sell, word of mouth and from Chimo > Marine which went out of > > business here and was selling 20 cents on the dollar. Even > wholesalers bought stock from > > them. > > I may actually have to break down one of these days and pay too > much for a 50' tube as I > > am running out of time to rig up and want to be sailing next sumer. > > The rigger I talked to the other day commented that Swain builders > all seem to collect all > > of the parts beforehand or make stuff themselves and in doing so > take the profit and > > incentive to do the job away from the mastbuilder. He has only > built one Swain mast, for a > > 36 here in BC and the guy was like me showing up with the add ons. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > > > Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the > steel mast > > > would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just > wondering if you > > > had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may > build larger > > > after Im done with the 26 > > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "mickeyolaf" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > > > > > > > >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel > mast weigh? I > > > >already have an > > > > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to > seek out an > > > > aluminum > > > > mast to be consistant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hello Mickey > > > >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? > > > >> Tom > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> From: "mickeyolaf" > > > >> To: > > > >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM > > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building > masts for > > > >> >25 > > > >> >years in > > > >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is > $3100 US > > > >> > wholesale. Mark up > > > >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an > added $450 US > > > >> > on > > > >> > a shared two > > > >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig > overbuilt for > > > >> > offshore with all fittings > > > >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum > corrosion > > > >> > prevention > > > >> > $12,000 > > > >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and > installing double > > > >> > spreaders (which is off > > > >> > the plan). > > > >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear > coated or > > > >> > polyurethane. He said > > > >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders > and metals > > > >> > must be isolated > > > >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is > bad but can > > > >> > be > > > >> > removed with > > > >> > mast rake. > > > >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his > backyard I could > > > >> > stop > > > >> > my search for a > > > >> > mast. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11251|11226|2006-07-04 17:05:25|tom|Re: steel mast vs alu|Several Years ago I was going to build a 31 ft multichine sailboat and the price of the keel stepped mast and rigging was quoted at $10.000. steel mast were unheard of and after I called around for a 45 shp diesel with v drive and was quote $10,000 I quit , Shure wish we had the power of the intranet back then. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 12:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] steel mast vs alu >I heard that one of the BS36 owners said that after replacing his steel > tube mast with alu he hardly noticed any difference in performance. I > think to get the same strength the Aluminum mast still has to have a > fairly thick wall, so it's not a featherweight. It does weigh less, so > you'd think it would make a large difference -- can some BS 36 owners > chime in with their expriences with steel vs aluminum masts on their > boats? Steel masted 36's have already done substantial offshore work, > and a steel tube mast definitely gets you on the water without having > to depend on luck to scrounge a 47 foot used alu mast! Just order your > tubes and go for it! > > Alex > > > > On 4-Jul-06, at 12:00 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > >> We don't owe mast builders or anyone else a living. If they want >> welfare they should go to the welfare office. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" >> wrote: >> > >> > I don't know but Brent would. I know right now u can buy a >> complete 35" aluminum mast >> > ready to stand for $550-600 from US Spars special deals web site. >> I've been watching their >> > site for longer ones but they are few and far between. >> > There is alot more to a mast than the tube. I so far have bought a >> trilight/anchor light, two >> > triple spinlocks, 2 Anderson winches, six halyard exits, VHS >> antenna, spreader/steaming, >> > deck light combo, 8 Norseman terminals, two ball tangs, 4 cleats, >> two rolls of 12mm >> > braided no stretch for halyards, nine turnbuckles, a dozen >> norseman terminals and >> > toggles to go with them, forestay release, wind speed/direction >> indicator, 60' VHF cable, >> > solid boom vang, backstay adjuster, Harken Mk 3 furling, a roll of >> 316 one by nineteen 5/ >> > 16 ss wire, about 20 blocks, spinnaker pole and track and on and >> on. Before anyone >> > slanders me I've been collecting equipment for 5 years and none >> was purchased retail. >> > Sales, swap meets, buy and sell, word of mouth and from Chimo >> Marine which went out of >> > business here and was selling 20 cents on the dollar. Even >> wholesalers bought stock from >> > them. >> > I may actually have to break down one of these days and pay too >> much for a 50' tube as I >> > am running out of time to rig up and want to be sailing next sumer. >> > The rigger I talked to the other day commented that Swain builders >> all seem to collect all >> > of the parts beforehand or make stuff themselves and in doing so >> take the profit and >> > incentive to do the job away from the mastbuilder. He has only >> built one Swain mast, for a >> > 36 here in BC and the guy was like me showing up with the add ons. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> > > >> > > Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the >> steel mast >> > > would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just >> wondering if you >> > > had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may >> build larger >> > > after Im done with the 26 >> > > Tom >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "mickeyolaf" >> > > To: >> > > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM >> > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> > > >> > > >> > > >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel >> mast weigh? I >> > > >already have an >> > > > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to >> seek out an >> > > > aluminum >> > > > mast to be consistant. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >> Hello Mickey >> > > >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? >> > > >> Tom >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> > > >> From: "mickeyolaf" >> > > >> To: >> > > >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM >> > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building >> masts for >> > > >> >25 >> > > >> >years in >> > > >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is >> $3100 US >> > > >> > wholesale. Mark up >> > > >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an >> added $450 US >> > > >> > on >> > > >> > a shared two >> > > >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig >> overbuilt for >> > > >> > offshore with all fittings >> > > >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum >> corrosion >> > > >> > prevention >> > > >> > $12,000 >> > > >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and >> installing double >> > > >> > spreaders (which is off >> > > >> > the plan). >> > > >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear >> coated or >> > > >> > polyurethane. He said >> > > >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders >> and metals >> > > >> > must be isolated >> > > >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is >> bad but can >> > > >> > be >> > > >> > removed with >> > > >> > mast rake. >> > > >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his >> backyard I could >> > > >> > stop >> > > >> > my search for a >> > > >> > mast. >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: >> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11252|11226|2006-07-04 22:05:06|jnikadie|new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|Tom, Not sure if it can be made to do the job of the inboard for your 26', but I thought I'd better pass on the link anyhow. http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1604 $1,500 ... 13 HP MITSUBISHI DIESEL ENGINE New Mitsubishi L2E diesel engine. Two cylinders, cast iron block. 12 VDC starter, 12 VDC 15 Amp alternator with voltage regulator and fuel filter. Mechanical speed governor. Radiator with fan guard furnished loose. SPECIFICATIONS * Mitshubishi model L2E * 2 cylinders * Bore x Stroke 76 x 70 mm * 0.635 Liter displacement * 3,600 RPM max. * Oil capacity 2.4 liters * 12 VDC 15 amp alternator * SAE 5 bell housing * 11-1/2" diameter flywheel * HP Ratings 5.7 HP @ 1500 RPM 8 HP @ 2000 RPM 10 HP @ 2500 RPM 13.3 HP @ 3600 RPM * Radiator size 18" x 2-1/2" x 19-1/2" * Engine size 17-1/2" x 15-1/2" x 19" * Shpg. 300 lbs. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: ... > > I keep telling myself > I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and blocks, > ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much simpler > and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an inboard, I > guess thats the way it goes > Tom | 11253|11226|2006-07-04 22:40:03|mickeyolaf|Re: Mast Trivia|I dealt with George Fox at US Spars. He shopped around for me in Florida to obtain cheaper shipping. I paid $350 for the boom and I believe $272 or $276 for shipping to BC. US Spars builds for major boat brands and ships all over the US. I am not a sailing expert but it makes sense that weight alot makes for more heel. More heel makes for less speed and more spillage of wind. Alex, would a good comparison to make be the heeling angles for a BS 36 with a steel mast vs an aluminum mast as opposed to the weight in total of the two different metals? If an aluminum BS 36 mast comes in at 250 lbs ( according to the rigger in North Vancouver) what would a steel mast weigh? The rigger thought it would weight 800 lbs ready to step. Would it? Wouldn't an 800 lb mast cause more heel and motion? My racing buddy with a Yamaha 36 ( ugly boat, looks like a floating bleach bottle with black eyes) went to great lengths to remove weight from his mast. He managed to reduce the weight by 70 pounds which he said made a differance in his boats performance. I have never raced but if 70 lbs will effect heel then 550 should make a dramatic differance? -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > I went to US spars website and ther showing a 35 foot mast with fittings > for $600 seems to good to be true and there address is in Frorida, to get > it shipped to California would be expensive, I will see if I can get ahold > of them next week and find out how complete it is. I have been planing on > building a steel mast so I can keep everything steel. I keep telling myself > I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and blocks, > ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much simpler > and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an inboard, I > guess thats the way it goes > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mickeyolaf" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:18 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > >I don't know but Brent would. I know right now u can buy a complete 35" > >aluminum mast > > ready to stand for $550-600 from US Spars special deals web site. I've > > been watching their > > site for longer ones but they are few and far between. > > There is alot more to a mast than the tube. I so far have bought a > > trilight/anchor light, two > > triple spinlocks, 2 Anderson winches, six halyard exits, VHS antenna, > > spreader/steaming, > > deck light combo, 8 Norseman terminals, two ball tangs, 4 cleats, two > > rolls of 12mm > > braided no stretch for halyards, nine turnbuckles, a dozen norseman > > terminals and > > toggles to go with them, forestay release, wind speed/direction indicator, > > 60' VHF cable, > > solid boom vang, backstay adjuster, Harken Mk 3 furling, a roll of 316 one > > by nineteen 5/ > > 16 ss wire, about 20 blocks, spinnaker pole and track and on and on. > > Before anyone > > slanders me I've been collecting equipment for 5 years and none was > > purchased retail. > > Sales, swap meets, buy and sell, word of mouth and from Chimo Marine which > > went out of > > business here and was selling 20 cents on the dollar. Even wholesalers > > bought stock from > > them. > > I may actually have to break down one of these days and pay too much for a > > 50' tube as I > > am running out of time to rig up and want to be sailing next sumer. > > The rigger I talked to the other day commented that Swain builders all > > seem to collect all > > of the parts beforehand or make stuff themselves and in doing so take the > > profit and > > incentive to do the job away from the mastbuilder. He has only built one > > Swain mast, for a > > 36 here in BC and the guy was like me showing up with the add ons. > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> > >> Makes since aluminum mast aluminum boat, I would emagine the steel mast > >> would be a lot heavyer than the aluminum one. I was just wondering if you > >> had figured out what a steel one would cost completed . I may build > >> larger > >> after Im done with the 26 > >> Tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "mickeyolaf" > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:23 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > >> > >> > >> >I don't know. What does a ready to bend on your sails steel mast weigh? > >> >I > >> >already have an > >> > aluminum boom and an aluminum boat and sort of have decided to seek out > >> > an > >> > aluminum > >> > mast to be consistant. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hello Mickey > >> >> What would it cost you to go steel mast? > >> >> Tom > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "mickeyolaf" > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:24 PM > >> >> Subject: [origamiboats] Mast Trivia > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >I spent some time yesterday with a guy who has been building masts > >> >> >for > >> >> >25 > >> >> >years in > >> >> > aluminum. A 50' tube with suitable scantlings for a BS36 is $3100 US > >> >> > wholesale. Mark up > >> >> > is $700 for a $3800 tube price. Shipping cost to me is an added $450 > >> >> > US > >> >> > on > >> >> > a shared two > >> >> > tube delivery. Finished and stood up with a cutter rig overbuilt for > >> >> > offshore with all fittings > >> >> > custom and welded with minimal stainless and maximum corrosion > >> >> > prevention > >> >> > $12,000 > >> >> > Cdn. Price also included swaging my lifelines and installing double > >> >> > spreaders (which is off > >> >> > the plan). > >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or > >> >> > polyurethane. He said > >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and > >> >> > metals > >> >> > must be isolated > >> >> > from each other. A little weather helm is good. Lee helm is bad but > >> >> > can > >> >> > be > >> >> > removed with > >> >> > mast rake. > >> >> > Now if Roland would sell me that tube he has in his backyard I could > >> >> > stop > >> >> > my search for a > >> >> > mast. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11254|11226|2006-07-04 23:21:10|jnikadie|Re: Mast Trivia|From the metalsupermarkets.com metal guide: Category: Steel Tube and Pipe Profile: Carbon Steel Tubing Round Seamless And Welded Grade: DOM -DRAWN OVER MANDREL Size: 5.500 Outside Diameter: 0.120 Wall Thickness: 5.260 Inside Diameter Weight: 6.895 Lbs/ft so 47' would weigh about 325 pounds before the add ons are included (I believe the 250 pounds quoted for the Al mast includes the add ons) It would seem that the riggers estimate of 800 pounds is a little pessimistic (I'm imagining that the 250 pound aluminium mast has less than 475 pounds of add ons!!!) [to confirm the 325 pounds I found a reference to steel having a density of 0.283 pounds per cubic inch ... this works out to 337 pounds - given that different steels have different densities, this is actually pretty close!] --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: ... > an aluminum BS 36 mast comes in at 250 lbs ( according to the rigger in North Vancouver) > what would a steel mast weigh? The rigger thought it would weight 800 lbs ready to step. > > >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear coated or > > >> >> > polyurethane. He said > > >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the spreaders and > > >> >> > metals > > >> >> > must be isolated > > >> >> > from each other. | 11255|11226|2006-07-04 23:27:36|jnikadie|Re: Mast Trivia|re the confirmation ... I was using a 1/8th (0.125") wall ... the 325 pounds mast was 0.12" ... at 0.283 pounds per cubic inch, 47' of 5.5 OD 0.12" wall would weigh 324 pounds ... an almost exact match so: 47' of 5.5" OD 0.12" wall = 325 pounds 47' of 5.5" OD 0.125" wall = 337 pounds --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > From the metalsupermarkets.com metal guide: > > Category: Steel Tube and Pipe > Profile: Carbon Steel Tubing Round Seamless And Welded > Grade: DOM -DRAWN OVER MANDREL > Size: 5.500 Outside Diameter: 0.120 Wall Thickness: 5.260 Inside Diameter > Weight: 6.895 Lbs/ft > > so 47' would weigh about 325 pounds before the add ons are included (I > believe the 250 pounds quoted for the Al mast includes the add ons) > > It would seem that the riggers estimate of 800 pounds is a little > pessimistic (I'm imagining that the 250 pound aluminium mast has less > than 475 pounds of add ons!!!) > > > [to confirm the 325 pounds I found a reference to steel having a > density of 0.283 pounds per cubic inch ... this works out to 337 > pounds - given that different steels have different densities, this is > actually pretty close!] > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > ... > > an aluminum BS 36 mast comes in at 250 lbs ( according to the rigger > in North Vancouver) > > what would a steel mast weigh? The rigger thought it would weight > 800 lbs ready to step. > > > > >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear > coated or > > > >> >> > polyurethane. He said > > > >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the > spreaders and > > > >> >> > metals > > > >> >> > must be isolated > > > >> >> > from each other. > | 11256|11226|2006-07-05 00:11:50|mickeyolaf|Re: Mast Trivia|I thought his guesstimate of 800 lbs was high for steel. I could tell he didn't like the concept of steel for a mast plus I'm sure if everyone building from home went with steel it would effect his bottom line. I do respect his experience though. 25 years building as opposed to my two point five minutes. I have to listen to his views with an open mind. I told him about raising my pilothouse 24" to have larger PH windows and more headroom etc. I also told him about moving my rudder inboard instead of hanging it on the transom. He thinks I have changed the center of effort and the boat's inertia by reducing the main 32 sq feet (if I just raise the boom 24" due to the higher pilothouse and make no further changes i.e. lengthening the boom to compensate). Before he would build me a mast he said I would now have to check with a naval architech to ensure that the boom length and mast height should stay the same and to make sure the rudder going forward has not produced helm issues. He wants his rigs to sail well. I think I will do some net research first as it is cheaper. Anybody know if these two changes to a BS 36 would be fatal to sailing performance and will require a redraw of the rigging? The view from the pilothouse is outstanding with the larger windows. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > re the confirmation ... I was using a 1/8th (0.125") wall ... the 325 > pounds mast was 0.12" ... at 0.283 pounds per cubic inch, 47' of 5.5 > OD 0.12" wall would weigh 324 pounds ... an almost exact match > > so: > > 47' of 5.5" OD 0.12" wall = 325 pounds > 47' of 5.5" OD 0.125" wall = 337 pounds > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > From the metalsupermarkets.com metal guide: > > > > Category: Steel Tube and Pipe > > Profile: Carbon Steel Tubing Round Seamless And Welded > > Grade: DOM -DRAWN OVER MANDREL > > Size: 5.500 Outside Diameter: 0.120 Wall Thickness: 5.260 Inside > Diameter > > Weight: 6.895 Lbs/ft > > > > so 47' would weigh about 325 pounds before the add ons are included (I > > believe the 250 pounds quoted for the Al mast includes the add ons) > > > > It would seem that the riggers estimate of 800 pounds is a little > > pessimistic (I'm imagining that the 250 pound aluminium mast has less > > than 475 pounds of add ons!!!) > > > > > > [to confirm the 325 pounds I found a reference to steel having a > > density of 0.283 pounds per cubic inch ... this works out to 337 > > pounds - given that different steels have different densities, this is > > actually pretty close!] > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > ... > > > an aluminum BS 36 mast comes in at 250 lbs ( according to the rigger > > in North Vancouver) > > > what would a steel mast weigh? The rigger thought it would weight > > 800 lbs ready to step. > > > > > > >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear > > coated or > > > > >> >> > polyurethane. He said > > > > >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the > > spreaders and > > > > >> >> > metals > > > > >> >> > must be isolated > > > > >> >> > from each other. > > > | 11257|11226|2006-07-05 03:27:54|Aaron Williams|Re: Mast Trivia|If the link works this site will give the weights of all of the types of material used to build a boat http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? jnikadie wrote: re the confirmation ... I was using a 1/8th (0.125") wall ... the 325 pounds mast was 0.12" ... at 0.283 pounds per cubic inch, 47' of 5.5 OD 0.12" wall would weigh 324 pounds ... an almost exact match so: 47' of 5.5" OD 0.12" wall = 325 pounds 47' of 5.5" OD 0.125" wall = 337 pounds --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > From the metalsupermarkets.com metal guide: > > Category: Steel Tube and Pipe > Profile: Carbon Steel Tubing Round Seamless And Welded > Grade: DOM -DRAWN OVER MANDREL > Size: 5.500 Outside Diameter: 0.120 Wall Thickness: 5.260 Inside Diameter > Weight: 6.895 Lbs/ft > > so 47' would weigh about 325 pounds before the add ons are included (I > believe the 250 pounds quoted for the Al mast includes the add ons) > > It would seem that the riggers estimate of 800 pounds is a little > pessimistic (I'm imagining that the 250 pound aluminium mast has less > than 475 pounds of add ons!!!) > > > [to confirm the 325 pounds I found a reference to steel having a > density of 0.283 pounds per cubic inch ... this works out to 337 > pounds - given that different steels have different densities, this is > actually pretty close!] > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > ... > > an aluminum BS 36 mast comes in at 250 lbs ( according to the rigger > in North Vancouver) > > what would a steel mast weigh? The rigger thought it would weight > 800 lbs ready to step. > > > > >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear > coated or > > > >> >> > polyurethane. He said > > > >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the > spreaders and > > > >> >> > metals > > > >> >> > must be isolated > > > >> >> > from each other. > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11258|11226|2006-07-05 04:04:49|Gerd|Re: Mast Trivia|For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts check out Dudley Dix's calculations at http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, and thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would come in about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' mid- heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m would raise the center of gravity only VERY little. Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but does not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other things equal - it does really two things: 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look different and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit lower. To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring your CG back to where it was. I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the CG is just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m below the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead you have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline you also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is acceptable to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 liters of beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal compromise ;-) 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would for example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make you roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance from the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on deck, or Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. Sure, there is a significant difference, but still much less than most people would expect. The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there would be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus steel (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi Sloop, because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap second hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace later, provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your boat. If after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with your steel mast, you just dump it. Gerd www.yago-project.com| 11259|11226|2006-07-05 04:38:22|Alex Christie|Re: Mast Trivia|Excellent compact treatise on mast materials and dynamics, Gerd, very informative. I'm going steel mast, I'll let you all know how it goes! And for those trading for an alu one....sell me your steel mast cheap! Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11260|11243|2006-07-05 14:10:10|khooper_fboats|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Brent, thanks, Please allow me to clarify something because I'm really confused now. I was talking about the possibility of pulling the hull together by applying tension to the outside of the section of each hull half, rather than the inside, but not inverting the hull half itself. In other words, the come-along would be strapped along the bottom of the plate, and the hull half would still "dish" concave (concavely??). the builder would still stand in the trough and weld it up just the same way as you're used to. I'm not talking about welding it up convex, standing on the outside, then turning it over (I would need the crane to turn it over, is that where a crane comes into it??) --Ken --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > centreline , but nowhere else. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > around the OUTside of the canoe. | 11261|11226|2006-07-05 19:41:10|brentswain38|Re: Mast Trivia|If the steel mast is sealed ,with external halyards, it will have positive buoyancy when submerged ,equal to it's dry weight, adding to the righting moment when submerged. Being able to simply and reliably weld tangs on instead of having to use the heavier fittings, normally used for alloy masts ,saves weight. The inertia of a slightly heavier mast reduces the liklihood of capsize. Capsize is usualy caused by a wave throwing the boat sideways ,where the keel bites in and trips her. With a heavier rig , by the time the rig is set in motion the wave has passed. This is why when a boat loses it's rig in the first capsize( less likely with a steel mast) it rolls over much more easily the second time , without the mast and it's inertia. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, and > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would come in > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' mid- > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m would > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. > > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but does > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other > things equal - it does really two things: > > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look different > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit lower. > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring > your CG back to where it was. > > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the CG is > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m below > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead you > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline you > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is acceptable > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 liters of > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal > compromise ;-) > > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would for > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make you > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). > > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. > > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance from > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on deck, or > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. Sure, > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most > people would expect. > > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there would > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus steel > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. > > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi Sloop, > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap second > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. > > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace later, > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your boat. If > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with your > steel mast, you just dump it. > > Gerd > www.yago-project.com > | 11262|11226|2006-07-05 20:03:00|brentswain38|Re: Mast Trivia|Moving ther rudder inboard won't change your sailplan , but it will make self steering and inside steering far more complex ,fragile and expensive. A friend went for an inboard rudder. His landlord calculated the cost of more complex self steering, hydraulic inside steering, and an autopilot big enough to power the main rudder instead of the trimtab, as well as dealing with the huge increase in power required to run it. He figured it would add $10,000 to the cost of the 53 footer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I thought his guesstimate of 800 lbs was high for steel. I could tell he didn't like the > concept of steel for a mast plus I'm sure if everyone building from home went with steel it > would effect his bottom line. I do respect his experience though. 25 years building as > opposed to my two point five minutes. I have to listen to his views with an open mind. > I told him about raising my pilothouse 24" to have larger PH windows and more headroom > etc. I also told him about moving my rudder inboard instead of hanging it on the transom. > He thinks I have changed the center of effort and the boat's inertia by reducing the main > 32 sq feet (if I just raise the boom 24" due to the higher pilothouse and make no further > changes i.e. lengthening the boom to compensate). > Before he would build me a mast he said I would now have to check with a naval architech > to ensure that the boom length and mast height should stay the same and to make sure > the rudder going forward has not produced helm issues. He wants his rigs to sail well. > I think I will do some net research first as it is cheaper. > Anybody know if these two changes to a BS 36 would be fatal to sailing performance and > will require a redraw of the rigging? The view from the pilothouse is outstanding with the > larger windows. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > re the confirmation ... I was using a 1/8th (0.125") wall ... the 325 > > pounds mast was 0.12" ... at 0.283 pounds per cubic inch, 47' of 5.5 > > OD 0.12" wall would weigh 324 pounds ... an almost exact match > > > > so: > > > > 47' of 5.5" OD 0.12" wall = 325 pounds > > 47' of 5.5" OD 0.125" wall = 337 pounds > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > > > > > > > From the metalsupermarkets.com metal guide: > > > > > > Category: Steel Tube and Pipe > > > Profile: Carbon Steel Tubing Round Seamless And Welded > > > Grade: DOM -DRAWN OVER MANDREL > > > Size: 5.500 Outside Diameter: 0.120 Wall Thickness: 5.260 Inside > > Diameter > > > Weight: 6.895 Lbs/ft > > > > > > so 47' would weigh about 325 pounds before the add ons are included (I > > > believe the 250 pounds quoted for the Al mast includes the add ons) > > > > > > It would seem that the riggers estimate of 800 pounds is a little > > > pessimistic (I'm imagining that the 250 pound aluminium mast has less > > > than 475 pounds of add ons!!!) > > > > > > > > > [to confirm the 325 pounds I found a reference to steel having a > > > density of 0.283 pounds per cubic inch ... this works out to 337 > > > pounds - given that different steels have different densities, this is > > > actually pretty close!] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > ... > > > > an aluminum BS 36 mast comes in at 250 lbs ( according to the rigger > > > in North Vancouver) > > > > what would a steel mast weigh? The rigger thought it would weight > > > 800 lbs ready to step. > > > > > > > > >> >> > Mast weight about 250 pounds, all in, deck stepped. Clear > > > coated or > > > > > >> >> > polyurethane. He said > > > > > >> >> > the majority of problems with masts are below the > > > spreaders and > > > > > >> >> > metals > > > > > >> >> > must be isolated > > > > > >> >> > from each other. > > > > > > | 11263|11243|2006-07-05 20:03:57|brentswain38|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Until you have an angle between the two panels that you are trying to pull together , you can go no further. Pulling from the inside gives you that angle.As the angle increases the pulling gets easier.Pulling from the outside wouldn't work . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Brent, thanks, > > Please allow me to clarify something because I'm really confused now. > I was talking about the possibility of pulling the hull together by > applying tension to the outside of the section of each hull half, > rather than the inside, but not inverting the hull half itself. > > In other words, the come-along would be strapped along the bottom of > the plate, and the hull half would still "dish" concave (concavely??). > the builder would still stand in the trough and weld it up just the > same way as you're used to. > > I'm not talking about welding it up convex, standing on the outside, > then turning it over (I would need the crane to turn it over, is that > where a crane comes into it??) > > --Ken > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > > centreline , but nowhere else. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > around the OUTside of the canoe. > | 11264|11243|2006-07-05 20:15:45|tom|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Hello Ken I think I understand what youre saying now, when you were saying outside of the hull I was confused but if you mean outside of hull plate at 90 degree to the chine, makes since. on my 26 I had to wrap a chain around the whole plate at 90 degree to the chine and about a foot back from where the chine starts then with a binder on the chain I was able to pull the chine together a lot easyer with the combination of the comalong in the center. The first one was a bitch went every direction but the way I wanted it to till I tryed the chain then it was easyer and the second side went togther a lot faster. The hull halfs I used a crain to assist and it went a lot easyer Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pulling Hull Together > > Brent, thanks, > > Please allow me to clarify something because I'm really confused now. > I was talking about the possibility of pulling the hull together by > applying tension to the outside of the section of each hull half, > rather than the inside, but not inverting the hull half itself. > > In other words, the come-along would be strapped along the bottom of > the plate, and the hull half would still "dish" concave (concavely??). > the builder would still stand in the trough and weld it up just the > same way as you're used to. > > I'm not talking about welding it up convex, standing on the outside, > then turning it over (I would need the crane to turn it over, is that > where a crane comes into it??) > > --Ken > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > >> It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you >> wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off >> the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different >> story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before >> it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the >> centreline , but nowhere else. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" >> wrote: >> > around the OUTside of the canoe. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11265|11243|2006-07-05 21:39:00|khooper_fboats|Re: Pulling Hull Together|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > if you mean outside of hull plate at 90 degree > to the chine, makes since. Exactly, with some sort of strap on the inside just to tell it which way to cup (a nylon strap would be plenty) but with the brawn on the outside perpendicular to the chine. It's sort of a self-centering jig if you see what I mean, and no need to weld eyes in to hook the cables to either. Just hook the plate by its edges. Well Brent says it won't work in real life and he oughta know, but I might try and experiment with it when the time comes anyway. As long as I don't kink the plate there's no harm in trying different ways, right? --Ken| 11266|11243|2006-07-05 22:04:32|Alex Christie|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Many of us are kinda visual when it come to stuff like this, could you make a little diagram to show it? ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pulling Hull Together --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > if you mean outside of hull plate at 90 degree > to the chine, makes since. Exactly, with some sort of strap on the inside just to tell it which way to cup (a nylon strap would be plenty) but with the brawn on the outside perpendicular to the chine. It's sort of a self-centering jig if you see what I mean, and no need to weld eyes in to hook the cables to either. Just hook the plate by its edges. Well Brent says it won't work in real life and he oughta know, but I might try and experiment with it when the time comes anyway. As long as I don't kink the plate there's no harm in trying different ways, right? --Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11267|11243|2006-07-05 23:05:30|tom|Re: Pulling Hull Together|I think you will still need to weld a couple hooks for the comalong in the center other than that you shouldnt. On the 26 its 10 gage and I was trying not to weld any more tabs than nessesary and I didnt have to for the chine. No harm in trying different ways heck you might just figure out an easyer method Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pulling Hull Together > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> if you mean outside of hull plate at 90 degree >> to the chine, makes since. > > Exactly, with some sort of strap on the inside just to tell it which > way to cup (a nylon strap would be plenty) but with the brawn on the > outside perpendicular to the chine. It's sort of a self-centering jig > if you see what I mean, and no need to weld eyes in to hook the cables > to either. Just hook the plate by its edges. > > Well Brent says it won't work in real life and he oughta know, but I > might try and experiment with it when the time comes anyway. As long > as I don't kink the plate there's no harm in trying different ways, right? > > --Ken > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11268|11243|2006-07-05 23:31:43|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Pulling Hull Together|On Wed, Jul 05, 2006 at 06:53:43PM -0700, Alex Christie wrote: > Many of us are kinda visual when it come to stuff like this, could you make a little diagram to show it? Yes, please do. I'd certainly like to understand - it sounds like quite an interesting improvement/option. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11269|11243|2006-07-05 23:49:17|khooper_fboats|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Hi Alex, Here's one I was doing with some 1/8" ply. In the first picture you can see where the hull is pulled together from the outside: http://homepage.mac.com/bighouse/boatfiles/img/pull2.jpg In the second one you can see the inside. This has not been glued or fastened in the dart, the duct tape is the only thing holding it together, yet it folds perfectly: http://homepage.mac.com/bighouse/boatfiles/img/pull.jpg So from this it is evident that all you really need to build a fair hull is one metric assload of duct tape. Quod erat demonstratum. =^)| 11270|11243|2006-07-06 06:08:15|Gerd|Re: Pulling Hull Together|I have used comealongs both on the inside and the outside on our hulls. it really depends on the shapes and requirements of what you want to archieve. Pulling on the inside tends to close the angel, but actually this is what makes the process so easy - the hull comes easily together at any andle it wants to fld easily, and this is not a problem because the final angle will be fixed when you spread the sheerline to it's width. In other owrds, the angle HELPS you! Pulling on the outside is also much harder, because the angle will not help and because your come-along will be in full friction all over the sheet it is on. I really found that only helpful near the ends, and together with another comealong on teh inside. Hooks / kinks: it can always happen that you pull a kink in, and you have to watch out for that constantly while you are happily cranking along... I now like to place my hooks near a stringer, but you still need to be careful, if by accident you pull a kink into a stringered part of the hull it stays forever.. Gerd http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Here's one I was doing with some 1/8" ply. In the first picture you > can see where the hull is pulled together from the outside: > > http://homepage.mac.com/bighouse/boatfiles/img/pull2.jpg > > In the second one you can see the inside. This has not been glued or > fastened in the dart, the duct tape is the only thing holding it > together, yet it folds perfectly: > > http://homepage.mac.com/bighouse/boatfiles/img/pull.jpg > > So from this it is evident that all you really need to build a fair > hull is one metric assload of duct tape. Quod erat demonstratum. =^) > | 11271|11226|2006-07-06 08:55:31|tom|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|Thanks For the info, Looks like a good deal for new. I wouldnt know where or what type trans would be needed for it. I have noticed almost all the newer small diesels are a little high strung ie you have to run them in the 3000 rpm range to get any power. I would prefer to have one that has a power range of 1500-2000 rpm range but no one seems to build a smaller 10-15 hp that develops power at low rpm. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jnikadie" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 7:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels > Tom, > > Not sure if it can be made to do the job of the inboard for your 26', > but I thought I'd better pass on the link anyhow. > > http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1604 > > $1,500 ... > > 13 HP MITSUBISHI DIESEL ENGINE > New Mitsubishi L2E diesel engine. Two cylinders, cast iron block. 12 > VDC starter, 12 VDC 15 Amp alternator with voltage regulator and fuel > filter. Mechanical speed governor. Radiator with fan guard furnished > loose. > > SPECIFICATIONS > > * Mitshubishi model L2E > * 2 cylinders > * Bore x Stroke 76 x 70 mm > * 0.635 Liter displacement > * 3,600 RPM max. > * Oil capacity 2.4 liters > * 12 VDC 15 amp alternator > * SAE 5 bell housing > * 11-1/2" diameter flywheel > * HP Ratings > 5.7 HP @ 1500 RPM > 8 HP @ 2000 RPM > 10 HP @ 2500 RPM > 13.3 HP @ 3600 RPM > * Radiator size 18" x 2-1/2" x 19-1/2" > * Engine size 17-1/2" x 15-1/2" x 19" > * Shpg. 300 lbs. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > ... >> >> I keep telling myself >> I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and > blocks, >> ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much > simpler >> and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an > inboard, I >> guess thats the way it goes >> Tom > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11272|11226|2006-07-06 12:08:05|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Mast Trivia|The Dutch used steel or iron masts on their sailing barges with no apparent problems Cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 11273|11273|2006-07-06 12:46:35|ANDREW AIREY|Mast trivia|Hi All Some data from an old engineering book Weights are in lb/cu ft Steel 490 Aluminium 160 Lead 708 Wood 45 (this does vary a bit) Water 63 Copper 549 Weight of tube Length x (od - id) x (od + id) x pi Cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 11274|11226|2006-07-06 13:16:46|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|Tom and others, That Mitsubishi for $1500 is the same engine as the Vetus M2.06 marine diesel. I believe they typically use a Hurth ZF transmission. So if you are not interested in fabricating the associated hardware, you might be able to buy the adaptors or whatever is needed from a Vetus distributor. Might not be a bad choice. Hmmm....maybe I'll go with the Mitsubishi..... ----- Original Message ----- From: jnikadie Date: Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:05 pm Subject: [origamiboats] new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels > Tom, > > Not sure if it can be made to do the job of the inboard for your 26', > but I thought I'd better pass on the link anyhow. > > http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1604 > > $1,500 ... > > 13 HP MITSUBISHI DIESEL ENGINE > New Mitsubishi L2E diesel engine. Two cylinders, cast iron block. 12 > VDC starter, 12 VDC 15 Amp alternator with voltage regulator and fuel > filter. Mechanical speed governor. Radiator with fan guard furnished > loose. > > SPECIFICATIONS > > * Mitshubishi model L2E > * 2 cylinders > * Bore x Stroke 76 x 70 mm > * 0.635 Liter displacement > * 3,600 RPM max. > * Oil capacity 2.4 liters > * 12 VDC 15 amp alternator > * SAE 5 bell housing > * 11-1/2" diameter flywheel > * HP Ratings > 5.7 HP @ 1500 RPM > 8 HP @ 2000 RPM > 10 HP @ 2500 RPM > 13.3 HP @ 3600 RPM > * Radiator size 18" x 2-1/2" x 19-1/2" > * Engine size 17-1/2" x 15-1/2" x 19" > * Shpg. 300 lbs. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > ... > > > > I keep telling myself > > I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and > blocks, > > ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much > simpler > > and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an > inboard, I > > guess thats the way it goes > > Tom > > > > > > > | 11275|11243|2006-07-06 22:40:03|Jim Ragsdale|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Here is the method I used along the aft when pulling my hulls together. It was a combination of come alongs on the inside and outside and some C-clamps. (600kB pic) On Tuesday 04 July 2006 1:43 pm, brentswain38 wrote: > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > centreline , but nowhere else. > Brent > | 11276|11243|2006-07-07 15:42:22|brentswain38|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Yes, outside comealongs work well for the aft centreline, once it's high enough off the ground to get it in. For the foreward centreline and the chines , which are flat on the ground when you start,they won't work. If a chine pops it's tacks after it's up you can use an outside comealong to pull it back, as you already have the angle.. If you accidentally put a tack where the wire is , it will usually break the wire instantly. Be careful not to tack over the wire. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > Here is the method I used along the aft when pulling my hulls together. It was > a combination of come alongs on the inside and outside and some C- clamps. > (600kB pic) > > > On Tuesday 04 July 2006 1:43 pm, brentswain38 wrote: > > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > > centreline , but nowhere else. > > Brent > > > | 11277|11243|2006-07-07 20:46:01|r_graffi|Re: Pulling Hull Together|Hi all my first post here and I'm a landlubber so be kind. If u pull from the top the boat bends upwards and u lift the ends up. if u pull from the bottom the boat bends downwards and u have to lift the entire weight of the boat as well. The quality of tools here has declined in the last few years what forces are we talking about lifting when u pull the boat together so that i can know what size comealongs as u call them to get and how many should i get especially if all i can get are the cheap Indian tools ie a 500kg comealong or 1 tonne comealong a 4 tonne one .The chain type or the wire type etc. As Brent said one of them snapping and the sheet landing on your toe would not be nice. RG --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, outside comealongs work well for the aft centreline, once it's > high enough off the ground to get it in. For the foreward centreline > and the chines , which are flat on the ground when you start,they won't > work. If a chine pops it's tacks after it's up you can use an outside > comealong to pull it back, as you already have the angle.. If you > accidentally put a tack where the wire is , it will usually break the > wire instantly. Be careful not to tack over the wire. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > > > Here is the method I used along the aft when pulling my hulls > together. It was > > a combination of come alongs on the inside and outside and some C- > clamps. > > (600kB pic) > > > > > > On Tuesday 04 July 2006 1:43 pm, brentswain38 wrote: > > > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > > > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > > > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > > > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > > > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > > > centreline , but nowhere else. > > > Brent > > > > > > | 11278|11243|2006-07-07 21:15:14|brentswain38|Re: Pulling Hull Together|You're right We usually use a a couple of cheap wire ones and rent a three ton chain comealong for the day or two it takes to pull the hull together. After that the cheap ones are adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "r_graffi" wrote: > > > Hi all my first post here and I'm a landlubber so be kind. > If u pull from the top the boat bends upwards and u lift the ends up. > if u pull from the bottom the boat bends downwards and u have to lift > the entire weight of the boat as well. > The quality of tools here has declined in the last few years what > forces are we talking about lifting when u pull the boat together so > that i can know what size comealongs as u call them to get and how > many should i get especially if all i can get are the cheap Indian > tools ie a 500kg comealong or 1 tonne comealong a 4 tonne one .The > chain type or the wire type etc. > As Brent said one of them snapping and the sheet landing on your toe > would not be nice. > RG > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Yes, outside comealongs work well for the aft centreline, once it's > > high enough off the ground to get it in. For the foreward centreline > > and the chines , which are flat on the ground when you start,they won't > > work. If a chine pops it's tacks after it's up you can use an outside > > comealong to pull it back, as you already have the angle.. If you > > accidentally put a tack where the wire is , it will usually break the > > wire instantly. Be careful not to tack over the wire. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > > > > > Here is the method I used along the aft when pulling my hulls > > together. It was > > > a combination of come alongs on the inside and outside and some C- > > clamps. > > > (600kB pic) > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday 04 July 2006 1:43 pm, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > > > > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > > > > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > > > > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > > > > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > > > > centreline , but nowhere else. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > | 11279|11226|2006-07-07 21:31:45|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast Trivia|I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this mast thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized in outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel and aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, I've never seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the business, and is possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. He frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles come in two or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over another and jam them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get strip of steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the one seam. I just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small diameter steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how to do this. They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles of pipe and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two pieces of 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like they are welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that small. The banding and buckles are really cheap too. So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide end. Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the strip, which will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands ever few inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. Once you have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end again, banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the strip bends further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap metal. It may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole strip into a round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, cutting the bands off as you go. I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that direction. I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it warps. Then I'd prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, by blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that I've done this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on stainless pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was done. If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling you'll see that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by assuming all the mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' mast has the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was concentrated 20 feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the bottom. We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the 20 ft point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on a boat by 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole would be. Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall and ending with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very close to a straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually be lower. By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on had thin walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I suspect they got their taper by rotary swaging. Origami mast anyone? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts check out Dudley Dix's calculations at http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, and thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would come in about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' mid- heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m would raise the center of gravity only VERY little. Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but does not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other things equal - it does really two things: 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look different and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit lower. To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring your CG back to where it was. I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the CG is just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m below the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead you have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline you also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is acceptable to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 liters of beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal compromise ;-) 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would for example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make you roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance from the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on deck, or Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. Sure, there is a significant difference, but still much less than most people would expect. The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there would be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus steel (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi Sloop, because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap second hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace later, provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your boat. If after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with your steel mast, you just dump it. Gerd www.yago-project.com | 11280|11226|2006-07-08 14:00:37|brentswain38|Re: Mast Trivia|Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would thus be minimal. I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common mistake with grown masts. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this mast > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized in > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel and > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, I've never > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the business, and is > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. He > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles come in two > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over another and jam > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. > > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get strip of > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the one seam. I > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small diameter > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how to do this. > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles of pipe > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two pieces of > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like they are > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that small. The > banding and buckles are really cheap too. > > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide end. > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the strip, which > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands ever few > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. Once you > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end again, > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the strip bends > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap metal. It > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole strip into a > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, cutting the > bands off as you go. > > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that direction. > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it warps. Then I'd > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, by > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that I've done > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on stainless > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was done. > > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling you'll see > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by assuming all the > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' mast has > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was concentrated 20 > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the bottom. > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the 20 ft > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on a boat by > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole would be. > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall and ending > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very close to a > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually be lower. > > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on had thin > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I suspect > they got their taper by rotary swaging. > > Origami mast anyone? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, and > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would come in > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' mid- > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m would > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. > > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but does > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other > things equal - it does really two things: > > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look different > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit lower. > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring > your CG back to where it was. > > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the CG is > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m below > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead you > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline you > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is acceptable > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 liters of > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal > compromise ;-) > > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would for > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make you > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). > > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. > > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance from > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on deck, or > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. Sure, > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most > people would expect. > > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there would > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus steel > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. > > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi Sloop, > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap second > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. > > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace later, > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your boat. If > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with your > steel mast, you just dump it. > > Gerd > www.yago-project.com > | 11281|11072|2006-07-09 19:58:15|Alex Christie|Re: Shorto sailing video Swain 36 footer|On 7-Jun-06, at 7:19 AM, Alfredo Nannetti wrote: > Hy Alex, > could you tell me the author of the music (and the title) you put as > a back ground of the short movie? > Nice the video... > > thanks > alfredo (italy) > > > I am gathering footage for my next films, and recently cobbled > > together some footage from my daysail on a 36 foot Swain 36 footer > for > > you to see, it should play automatically on this link: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_R6U5fxMYA > > > > The same footage is in raw format in the group files, just without > the > > fancy editing and music :-) It was taken on my little digital camera > > in between shots using my regular DV cam, so pretty low res, but > gives > > you a taste of salt as we rollick along in 30 knot winds! The > finished > > film will have better definition, and I will be showing the sailboat > > in use in very diverse places (Antigua...to Antarctica). > > > > This movie plays on Youtube automatically when you click on the > link. > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > --------------------~--> You can search right from your browser? > It's > > easy and it's free. See how. > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > > ----------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11282|732|2006-07-10 05:12:14|Aaron|Lead|I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to confirm the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood sailboat When I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. I drilled a hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. Aaron in Alaska| 11283|732|2006-07-10 06:03:19|Alex Christie|Re: Lead|If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...it's lead. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Lead I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to confirm the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood sailboat When I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. I drilled a hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. Aaron in Alaska ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11284|732|2006-07-10 11:02:57|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Lead|If its cheaper than lead,about the same sg (think pythagoras and the bathwater)and you're going to use them 'as is' snatch his hand off.If you're going to melt them down then it might pay to get them analysed first. Cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 11285|732|2006-07-10 11:21:32|Wesley Cox|Re: Lead|You could check density. Aaron wrote: >I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to confirm >the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood sailboat >When I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. I drilled a >hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F >At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. >Aaron in Alaska > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 11286|732|2006-07-10 14:02:26|khooper_fboats|Re: Lead|> You could check density. If lead is .41 lbs per cubic inch and there are no voids then your 25 lb bars should be 60.97 cubic inches, no? If they are then they haven't been adulterated significantly (at least they haven't been adulterated by something significantly lighter than lead). OTH, who really cares, as long as the stuff is heavy. =^)| 11287|732|2006-07-10 15:59:06|Gerd|Re: Lead|Why don't you just weigh & mesure it? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to confirm > the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood sailboat > When I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. I drilled a > hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F > At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. > Aaron in Alaska > | 11288|732|2006-07-10 16:10:42|cirejay|Re: Lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...it's lead. > Then I have a heck of lot of lead in my front yard, free for the taking. But, you will have to pluck the feathers:-) eric S/V Nebaras| 11289|732|2006-07-10 16:42:56|Darren Bos|Re: Lead|I think Archimedes' principle is what you want. Below is how I would do it. Check the density as follows. Get a narrow (as narrow as possible is best) clear cylinder (pop bottle with top cut off might work) and place the bar in it. Fill it with water until the bar is completely covered with water. Mark height of water. Remove bar, trying not to lose any water. Make a second mark on cylinder at new water level. Add water to bring level back up to first mark. Note the volume of water you had to add to bring the level of water back to the second mark. Repeat a few times and take the average. Wiegh the lead bar. Divide bar weight by volume of water. If it is lead you should get something close to 11.34g/ml or 0.41 pounds per cubic inch. Life is easier if you work in metric. Notes: - if you don't have something to measure volume accurately, but you do have an accurate scale, then you can weigh the amount of water it takes to bring the water level from the second mark to the first. At room temp the water is 1g/ml, so the volume is equal to the mass (don't use seawater if you do it this way). - if you don't have an accurate way to measure volume or the small mass of water, then calculate volume from the radius of your cylinder and the two marks on it. V = 3.14 x radius squared x length bewteen your two marks Or just send a sample off for testing..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Date: Sunday, July 9, 2006 9:17 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Lead > I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to > confirm > the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood > sailboatWhen I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. > I drilled a > hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F > At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. > Aaron in Alaska > > > > > | 11290|732|2006-07-10 16:45:43|Alex Christie|Re: Lead|Eric, please instruct your lead ducks to fly to Vancouver Island right into my keel hollows! I don't mind a little plucking if it gets me sailing! Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: cirejay To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 3:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...it's lead. > Then I have a heck of lot of lead in my front yard, free for the taking. But, you will have to pluck the feathers:-) eric S/V Nebaras ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11291|732|2006-07-10 19:11:54|Aaron Williams|Re: Lead|I did weigh and measures but the bar size was not square (tapered an rounded edges on one side) getting a rounded off measurement I believe it to be in the 90% range. 4500 lbs more to go ! Archimedes' principle would work also. Thanks everone for the ideas Even though ducks are supposed to float LOL Aaron in Alaska Gerd wrote: Why don't you just weigh & mesure it? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to confirm > the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood sailboat > When I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. I drilled a > hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F > At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. > Aaron in Alaska > --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11292|11226|2006-07-10 20:15:39|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast Trivia|Brent, You know most of the time I find little reason to argue with you. However this time I can't agree. Even nature tapers a tree, and all the branches are up high! Light poles have all the lights, and weight at the top. Why does the mast have to be large at the sheaves at the top? Don't the halyards go up and over the top? Sure the sheave box needs to be large enough to contain the halyards but that doesn't necessarily mean the mast needs to be that big. If it is a stayed mast all the load from the stays is compression straight down the center of the mast. For a Bermuda rig the sail itself tapers, and the sail wind load on the mast decreases right to zero at the top. One more thing. I used to run a sign crane with round tube boom. the first tube was 10" diameter while the last and 5th one was 3" in diameter. Laid flat at radius of 75 feet I could pick just 175lbs. However if the mast was all the same diameter the crane couldn't even pick up it's own boom, because the last 20 feet would weigh a lot more than 175lb and it would bend right over. Now we had a basket on the end of that 3" round boom and I've worked from it many times, at a height of 85 feet. It is like being at the end of a fishing pole, but still not nearly as bouncy as a conventional bucket truck with a fiberglass boom. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would thus be minimal. I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common mistake with grown masts. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this mast > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized in > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel and > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, I've never > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the business, and is > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. He > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles come in two > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over another and jam > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. > > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get strip of > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the one seam. I > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small diameter > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how to do this. > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles of pipe > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two pieces of > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like they are > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that small. The > banding and buckles are really cheap too. > > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide end. > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the strip, which > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands ever few > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. Once you > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end again, > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the strip bends > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap metal. It > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole strip into a > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, cutting the > bands off as you go. > > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that direction. > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it warps. Then I'd > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, by > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that I've done > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on stainless > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was done. > > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling you'll see > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by assuming all the > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' mast has > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was concentrated 20 > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the bottom. > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the 20 ft > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on a boat by > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole would be. > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall and ending > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very close to a > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually be lower. > > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on had thin > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I suspect > they got their taper by rotary swaging. > > Origami mast anyone? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, and > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would come in > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' mid- > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m would > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. > > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but does > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other > things equal - it does really two things: > > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look different > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit lower. > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring > your CG back to where it was. > > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the CG is > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m below > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead you > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline you > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is acceptable > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 liters of > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal > compromise ;-) > > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would for > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make you > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). > > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. > > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance from > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on deck, or > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. Sure, > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most > people would expect. > > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there would > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus steel > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. > > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi Sloop, > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap second > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. > > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace later, > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your boat. If > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with your > steel mast, you just dump it. > > Gerd > www.yago-project.com > | 11293|732|2006-07-10 20:30:55|khooper_fboats|Re: Lead|> I did weigh and measures but the bar size was not square (tapered an rounded edges on one side) Is it sort of a capsule shape with squarish legs cast onto one side? Probably printer's lead, it was used in casting slugs for Linotype machines, that would have a high antimony content as it needed to be as hard as possible so it would wear well. It's ideal for an external bulb keel but excellent for any sort of ballast.| 11294|732|2006-07-10 21:08:08|Alex Christie|Re: Lead|Tire weights are also an alloy of lead and antimony and work fine for ballast, so using your ingots should be no problem even if it isn't 100% lead. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead > I did weigh and measures but the bar size was not square (tapered an rounded edges on one side) Is it sort of a capsule shape with squarish legs cast onto one side? Probably printer's lead, it was used in casting slugs for Linotype machines, that would have a high antimony content as it needed to be as hard as possible so it would wear well. It's ideal for an external bulb keel but excellent for any sort of ballast. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11295|11226|2006-07-10 21:28:56|Alex Christie|Re: Mast Trivia|Didn't brent say something about the steel being a thinner wall thickness as it tapers? It wouldn't be nearly as strong compared to a tapered pole with equal thickness, which would then perhaps be an ideal if one could find such a thing, for of course it's nice to get some weight out from up high. It also sounds like there are greater loads imposed higher up the mast than one would expect, so you don't want to thin an already thin wall thickness. Am I right in that regard? Also, the steel tube is only 6" round anyhow, so is there really a need to taper it when it isn't that big at the top anyhow? I've looked at the sheaves on a brent boat and a 6" tube makes a nice amount of space for them, to my eye (nice big wheels to prevent kinking or wearing of the rope). I'm no mast expert, just some thoughts on it, is all. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia Brent, You know most of the time I find little reason to argue with you. However this time I can't agree. Even nature tapers a tree, and all the branches are up high! Light poles have all the lights, and weight at the top. Why does the mast have to be large at the sheaves at the top? Don't the halyards go up and over the top? Sure the sheave box needs to be large enough to contain the halyards but that doesn't necessarily mean the mast needs to be that big. If it is a stayed mast all the load from the stays is compression straight down the center of the mast. For a Bermuda rig the sail itself tapers, and the sail wind load on the mast decreases right to zero at the top. One more thing. I used to run a sign crane with round tube boom. the first tube was 10" diameter while the last and 5th one was 3" in diameter. Laid flat at radius of 75 feet I could pick just 175lbs. However if the mast was all the same diameter the crane couldn't even pick up it's own boom, because the last 20 feet would weigh a lot more than 175lb and it would bend right over. Now we had a basket on the end of that 3" round boom and I've worked from it many times, at a height of 85 feet. It is like being at the end of a fishing pole, but still not nearly as bouncy as a conventional bucket truck with a fiberglass boom. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would thus be minimal. I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common mistake with grown masts. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this mast > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized in > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel and > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, I've never > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the business, and is > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. He > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles come in two > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over another and jam > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. > > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get strip of > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the one seam. I > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small diameter > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how to do this. > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles of pipe > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two pieces of > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like they are > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that small. The > banding and buckles are really cheap too. > > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide end. > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the strip, which > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands ever few > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. Once you > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end again, > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the strip bends > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap metal. It > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole strip into a > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, cutting the > bands off as you go. > > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that direction. > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it warps. Then I'd > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, by > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that I've done > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on stainless > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was done. > > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling you'll see > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by assuming all the > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' mast has > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was concentrated 20 > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the bottom. > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the 20 ft > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on a boat by > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole would be. > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall and ending > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very close to a > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually be lower. > > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on had thin > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I suspect > they got their taper by rotary swaging. > > Origami mast anyone? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, and > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would come in > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' mid- > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m would > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. > > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but does > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other > things equal - it does really two things: > > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look different > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit lower. > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring > your CG back to where it was. > > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the CG is > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m below > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead you > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline you > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is acceptable > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 liters of > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal > compromise ;-) > > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would for > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make you > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). > > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. > > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance from > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on deck, or > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. Sure, > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most > people would expect. > > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there would > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus steel > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. > > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi Sloop, > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap second > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. > > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace later, > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your boat. If > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with your > steel mast, you just dump it. > > Gerd > www.yago-project.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11296|732|2006-07-11 00:05:26|tom|Re: Lead|This is interesting, I didnt know there was diferent grades or types of lead, wouldnt the weight per cubic foot be real close to the same? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead >> I did weigh and measures but the bar size was not square (tapered an > rounded edges on one side) > > Is it sort of a capsule shape with squarish legs cast onto one side? > Probably printer's lead, it was used in casting slugs for Linotype > machines, that would have a high antimony content as it needed to be > as hard as possible so it would wear well. It's ideal for an external > bulb keel but excellent for any sort of ballast. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11297|732|2006-07-11 02:11:58|Aaron Williams|Re: Lead|I think thats what I should have asked. The sound of the bars clanging together was what confused me, sounded like metal DUH ! tom wrote: This is interesting, I didnt know there was diferent grades or types of lead, wouldnt the weight per cubic foot be real close to the same? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lead >> I did weigh and measures but the bar size was not square (tapered an > rounded edges on one side) > > Is it sort of a capsule shape with squarish legs cast onto one side? > Probably printer's lead, it was used in casting slugs for Linotype > machines, that would have a high antimony content as it needed to be > as hard as possible so it would wear well. It's ideal for an external > bulb keel but excellent for any sort of ballast. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11298|11226|2006-07-11 15:17:29|mickeyolaf|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the Mitsubishi generate a true 13? Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there will be losses at the transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes 8hp to drive it via a belt. I don't know what a 40 or 60 amp model needs but lets say at a guess its 6hp. 13 hp minus six doesn't really leave much power left. If you need to escape crediters, pirates or ex wives you might have to row also. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Tom and others, > > That Mitsubishi for $1500 is the same engine as the Vetus M2.06 marine diesel. I believe they typically use a Hurth ZF transmission. So if you are not interested in fabricating the associated hardware, you might be able to buy the adaptors or whatever is needed from a Vetus distributor. Might not be a bad choice. Hmmm....maybe I'll go with the Mitsubishi..... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jnikadie > Date: Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:05 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels > > > Tom, > > > > Not sure if it can be made to do the job of the inboard for your 26', > > but I thought I'd better pass on the link anyhow. > > > > http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1604 > > > > $1,500 ... > > > > 13 HP MITSUBISHI DIESEL ENGINE > > New Mitsubishi L2E diesel engine. Two cylinders, cast iron block. 12 > > VDC starter, 12 VDC 15 Amp alternator with voltage regulator and fuel > > filter. Mechanical speed governor. Radiator with fan guard furnished > > loose. > > > > SPECIFICATIONS > > > > * Mitshubishi model L2E > > * 2 cylinders > > * Bore x Stroke 76 x 70 mm > > * 0.635 Liter displacement > > * 3,600 RPM max. > > * Oil capacity 2.4 liters > > * 12 VDC 15 amp alternator > > * SAE 5 bell housing > > * 11-1/2" diameter flywheel > > * HP Ratings > > 5.7 HP @ 1500 RPM > > 8 HP @ 2000 RPM > > 10 HP @ 2500 RPM > > 13.3 HP @ 3600 RPM > > * Radiator size 18" x 2-1/2" x 19-1/2" > > * Engine size 17-1/2" x 15-1/2" x 19" > > * Shpg. 300 lbs. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > ... > > > > > > I keep telling myself > > > I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and > > blocks, > > > ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much > > simpler > > > and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an > > inboard, I > > > guess thats the way it goes > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11299|11226|2006-07-11 17:20:39|seeratlas|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > If you need to escape crediters, pirates or > ex wives you might have to row also. > > Hmmm isn't that all the same thing? :) rflmao :) seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Tom and others, > > > > That Mitsubishi for $1500 is the same engine as the Vetus M2.06 marine diesel. I > believe they typically use a Hurth ZF transmission. So if you are not interested in > fabricating the associated hardware, you might be able to buy the adaptors or whatever is > needed from a Vetus distributor. Might not be a bad choice. Hmmm....maybe I'll go with > the Mitsubishi..... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jnikadie > > Date: Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:05 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > Not sure if it can be made to do the job of the inboard for your 26', > > > but I thought I'd better pass on the link anyhow. > > > > > > http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1604 > > > > > > $1,500 ... > > > > > > 13 HP MITSUBISHI DIESEL ENGINE > > > New Mitsubishi L2E diesel engine. Two cylinders, cast iron block. 12 > > > VDC starter, 12 VDC 15 Amp alternator with voltage regulator and fuel > > > filter. Mechanical speed governor. Radiator with fan guard furnished > > > loose. > > > > > > SPECIFICATIONS > > > > > > * Mitshubishi model L2E > > > * 2 cylinders > > > * Bore x Stroke 76 x 70 mm > > > * 0.635 Liter displacement > > > * 3,600 RPM max. > > > * Oil capacity 2.4 liters > > > * 12 VDC 15 amp alternator > > > * SAE 5 bell housing > > > * 11-1/2" diameter flywheel > > > * HP Ratings > > > 5.7 HP @ 1500 RPM > > > 8 HP @ 2000 RPM > > > 10 HP @ 2500 RPM > > > 13.3 HP @ 3600 RPM > > > * Radiator size 18" x 2-1/2" x 19-1/2" > > > * Engine size 17-1/2" x 15-1/2" x 19" > > > * Shpg. 300 lbs. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > > > I keep telling myself > > > > I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and > > > blocks, > > > > ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much > > > simpler > > > > and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an > > > inboard, I > > > > guess thats the way it goes > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11300|11243|2006-07-11 17:36:18|seeratlas|Re: Pulling Hull Together BIGGER....|Brent, out of all of the hundred's of questions I've asked you (and to which you always 'graciously' replied :) I missed one of the most important and now seems an opportune time. What's the biggest origami you've ever tried and for my almost 43ft LOD variation, what kind of additional equipment can you see me needing to put the basic hull together? (the rough drafts are in the photo's section under Seer's etc.) I seem to recall you posting somewhere that you did something over 40 feet once and were determined to never do that again. :) I was tossing some rough numbers around on sheet weights etc. and the numbers are pretty sobering. It looks to me like either renting a crane or building somewhere with a heavy duty overhead lift and some commercial/industrial comealongs looks like a 'real good idea'. But then I think about the various 40's under construction and come back to thinking well, is it really that much more? Also, what do you think about using some of the hydraulic equip around that they have for straightening car frames etc. Any experience with that stuff? As always thanks in advance for your thoughts or anyone else's out there, especially the 40ft builders. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes, outside comealongs work well for the aft centreline, once it's > high enough off the ground to get it in. For the foreward centreline > and the chines , which are flat on the ground when you start,they won't > work. If a chine pops it's tacks after it's up you can use an outside > comealong to pull it back, as you already have the angle.. If you > accidentally put a tack where the wire is , it will usually break the > wire instantly. Be careful not to tack over the wire. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > > > Here is the method I used along the aft when pulling my hulls > together. It was > > a combination of come alongs on the inside and outside and some C- > clamps. > > (600kB pic) > > > > > > On Tuesday 04 July 2006 1:43 pm, brentswain38 wrote: > > > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > > > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > > > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > > > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > > > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > > > centreline , but nowhere else. > > > Brent > > > > > > | 11301|11226|2006-07-11 18:45:56|jim dorey|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|mickeyolaf wrote: > > > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the Mitsubishi > generate a true 13? > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there will be > losses at the > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes 8hp > to drive it via a > belt. I don't know what a 40 or 60 amp model needs but lets say at a > guess its 6hp. 13 hp > minus six doesn't really leave much power left. If you need to escape > crediters, pirates or > ex wives you might have to row also. maybe a switch for an electric clutch, NC type, when you get enough charge in the battery, or press a button, the clutch lets the alternator spin free. you would get a decent burst of speed, just, not for long.| 11302|11226|2006-07-11 18:54:30|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 07:10:54PM -0300, jim dorey wrote: > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the Mitsubishi > > generate a true 13? > > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there will be > > losses at the > > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes 8hp > > to drive it via a > > belt. I don't know what a 40 or 60 amp model needs but lets say at a > > guess its 6hp. 13 hp > > minus six doesn't really leave much power left. If you need to escape > > crediters, pirates or > > ex wives you might have to row also. > > maybe a switch for an electric clutch, NC type, when you get enough > charge in the battery, or press a button, the clutch lets the alternator > spin free. you would get a decent burst of speed, just, not for long. Cutting off the field current to the alternator would make the alternator essentially freewheel (no load); that only takes a cheap switch in the field wire. You'd just have to remember to turn it back on the next time you wanted to charge your batteries... but your ammeter would tell you the story, anyway. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11303|11226|2006-07-11 20:20:09|khooper_fboats|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > maybe a switch for an electric clutch, > > Cutting off the field current to the alternator would make the > alternator essentially freewheel (no load); that only takes a cheap > switch in the field wire. Clutches are an interesting idea though and I was going to ask if anybody had experience/advice about this at some point. I was thinking about using junkyard parts from automotive air conditioning systems if they are stout enough to stand the stress. Watermaker and bilge pump/anchor wash are two applications that come to mind. Having all your engine ancillaries able to "fall off" and consume no power would be I think a very intelligent way to get away with using a smaller engine while still able to deploy 100% horsepower during those rare events when you really need to accelerate. Does this make sense? --Ken| 11304|11226|2006-07-11 20:55:38|tom|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|Hello Mickey Thats the problem Ive run into with all the smaller diesels in that HP range, figure 75% for continueus duty - the amp load on the alternator, not much HP left at the prop, what putter along at 3 knots. This is why I opted for the old atomic 4 in my 26 30HP max at 3000 rpm and at a good cruising speed around 2000 rpm 16-18 HP more than enough to charge batteries and run 5-1/2 knots. If I remember correctly the ol rull of thumb 2 SHP for every 1000 pounds displacment so the BS 26 at 6700 lbs displacment would be about 13 SHP then if thats 75% of the max BHP of the engine you would need a 16-18 HP to cruise at or just below hull speed. If you add a big honkin alternator to it you may want to add a couple more HP to that. What would work better than turning off youre alternator and takeing a chance of damaging it would be a battery switch and switch it to youre starting battery only if you needed the extra HP that battery should allways be up compared to the house batteries. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the Mitsubishi > generate a true 13? > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there will be > losses at the > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes 8hp to > drive it via a > belt. I don't know what a 40 or 60 amp model needs but lets say at a guess > its 6hp. 13 hp > minus six doesn't really leave much power left. If you need to escape > crediters, pirates or > ex wives you might have to row also. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >> Tom and others, >> >> That Mitsubishi for $1500 is the same engine as the Vetus M2.06 marine >> diesel. I > believe they typically use a Hurth ZF transmission. So if you are not > interested in > fabricating the associated hardware, you might be able to buy the adaptors > or whatever is > needed from a Vetus distributor. Might not be a bad choice. Hmmm....maybe > I'll go with > the Mitsubishi..... >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: jnikadie >> Date: Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:05 pm >> Subject: [origamiboats] new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels >> >> > Tom, >> > >> > Not sure if it can be made to do the job of the inboard for your 26', >> > but I thought I'd better pass on the link anyhow. >> > >> > http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1604 >> > >> > $1,500 ... >> > >> > 13 HP MITSUBISHI DIESEL ENGINE >> > New Mitsubishi L2E diesel engine. Two cylinders, cast iron block. 12 >> > VDC starter, 12 VDC 15 Amp alternator with voltage regulator and fuel >> > filter. Mechanical speed governor. Radiator with fan guard furnished >> > loose. >> > >> > SPECIFICATIONS >> > >> > * Mitshubishi model L2E >> > * 2 cylinders >> > * Bore x Stroke 76 x 70 mm >> > * 0.635 Liter displacement >> > * 3,600 RPM max. >> > * Oil capacity 2.4 liters >> > * 12 VDC 15 amp alternator >> > * SAE 5 bell housing >> > * 11-1/2" diameter flywheel >> > * HP Ratings >> > 5.7 HP @ 1500 RPM >> > 8 HP @ 2000 RPM >> > 10 HP @ 2500 RPM >> > 13.3 HP @ 3600 RPM >> > * Radiator size 18" x 2-1/2" x 19-1/2" >> > * Engine size 17-1/2" x 15-1/2" x 19" >> > * Shpg. 300 lbs. >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> > ... >> > > >> > > I keep telling myself >> > > I am going to keep it simple and cheap and build all the fitting and >> > blocks, >> > > ect . But then I said the same thing about the engine, outboard much >> > simpler >> > > and cheaper ,now I am spending a lot of time and $ putting in an >> > inboard, I >> > > guess thats the way it goes >> > > Tom >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11305|11226|2006-07-11 21:22:18|cirejay|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the Mitsubishi generate a true 13? > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there will be losses at the > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes 8hp to drive it via a > belt. 8hp is approx. 6kw. At about 14.4v, charging (1.4kw), and even 50% efficiency (quite low), you're looking at less than 4hp. If you have a 24 volt system, that's another story. BTW, if you're not charging, the alternator is not working and if it's not working, it's not pulling hp (a measure of work) from the engine. eric S/V Nebaras| 11306|11226|2006-07-11 21:32:17|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast Trivia|Alex, I've never seen a steel pole that tapered where the wall thickness also thinned out. So I am suggesting a constant wall thickness of say 1/8". Now lets look at your 6" mast. A six inch mast weighs a little more than 15 lbs a foot. If it tapered to 3" at the top it would weigh 7.5 lbs for the top foot, and the average weight of the whole length would be 11.25 lbs. So a 40 foot mast would be reduced in weight from 600 lbs to 450 lbs. Not much you say? Consider that a larger portion of that weight reduction would have come from the top end, so the actual effect on roll inertia would be closer to cutting the mast weight in half. Note that a 3" round tube with 1/8" wall has about 1-1/4 square inches of steel in cross section. Typically steel structures are designed for stress loads of about 10,000 psi on mild steel with tensile strength of 50,000 psi. So this 3" cross section at the top will support a compressive load from the stays of at least 12,500 lbs. Note that I've ignored buckling here, which is a large factor in a structure like a mast, but I don't think it would reduce these values much if at all. Sure you need room for good size sheaves at the top. Take a look at any crane, they have very large sheaves at the top to reduce the bending on steel cables. They don't fit them in the boom, they fit them in the sheave box at the top which is considerably larger than the boom, and welded on. Just some thoughts, Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > Didn't brent say something about the steel being a thinner wall thickness > as it tapers? It wouldn't be nearly as strong compared to a tapered pole > with equal thickness, which would then perhaps be an ideal if one could > find such a thing, for of course it's nice to get some weight out from up > high. It also sounds like there are greater loads imposed higher up the > mast than one would expect, so you don't want to thin an already thin wall > thickness. Am I right in that regard? > > Also, the steel tube is only 6" round anyhow, so is there really a need to > taper it when it isn't that big at the top anyhow? I've looked at the > sheaves on a brent boat and a 6" tube makes a nice amount of space for > them, to my eye (nice big wheels to prevent kinking or wearing of the > rope). > > I'm no mast expert, just some thoughts on it, is all. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > Brent, > You know most of the time I find little reason to argue with you. However > this time I can't agree. Even nature tapers a tree, and all the branches > are up high! Light poles have all the lights, and weight at the top. Why > does the mast have to be large at the sheaves at the top? Don't the > halyards go up and over the top? Sure the sheave box needs to be large > enough to contain the halyards but that doesn't necessarily mean the mast > needs to be that big. If it is a stayed mast all the load from the stays > is > compression straight down the center of the mast. For a Bermuda rig the > sail itself tapers, and the sail wind load on the mast decreases right to > zero at the top. > > One more thing. I used to run a sign crane with round tube boom. the > first > tube was 10" diameter while the last and 5th one was 3" in diameter. Laid > flat at radius of 75 feet I could pick just 175lbs. However if the mast > was > all the same diameter the crane couldn't even pick up it's own boom, > because > the last 20 feet would weigh a lot more than 175lb and it would bend > right > over. Now we had a basket on the end of that 3" round boom and I've > worked > from it many times, at a height of 85 feet. It is like being at the end > of > a fishing pole, but still not nearly as bouncy as a conventional bucket > truck with a fiberglass boom. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:58 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed > mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the > taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to > have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically > raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would > thus be minimal. > I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , > and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common > mistake with grown masts. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this > mast > > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized > in > > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel > and > > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, > I've never > > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the > business, and is > > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. > He > > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles > come in two > > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over > another and jam > > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. > > > > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get > strip of > > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the > one seam. I > > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small > diameter > > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how > to do this. > > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles > of pipe > > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two > pieces of > > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like > they are > > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that > small. The > > banding and buckles are really cheap too. > > > > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide > end. > > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the > strip, which > > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands > ever few > > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. > Once you > > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end > again, > > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the > strip bends > > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap > metal. It > > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole > strip into a > > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, > cutting the > > bands off as you go. > > > > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that > direction. > > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it > warps. Then I'd > > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, > by > > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that > I've done > > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on > stainless > > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was > done. > > > > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling > you'll see > > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by > assuming all the > > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' > mast has > > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was > concentrated 20 > > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the > bottom. > > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the > 20 ft > > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on > a boat by > > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole > would be. > > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall > and ending > > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very > close to a > > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually > be lower. > > > > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on > had thin > > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I > suspect > > they got their taper by rotary swaging. > > > > Origami mast anyone? > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerd" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > > > > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts > > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at > > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, > and > > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would > come in > > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' > mid- > > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m > would > > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. > > > > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a > > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but > does > > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel > > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other > > things equal - it does really two things: > > > > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG > > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look > different > > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit > lower. > > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring > > your CG back to where it was. > > > > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the > CG is > > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast > > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between > > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m > below > > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead > you > > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline > you > > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry > > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is > acceptable > > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 > liters of > > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal > > compromise ;-) > > > > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the > > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and > > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would > for > > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make > you > > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a > > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). > > > > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you > > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. > > > > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance > from > > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on > deck, or > > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, > > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, > > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. > Sure, > > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most > > people would expect. > > > > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional > > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there > would > > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus > steel > > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. > > > > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi > Sloop, > > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap > second > > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or > > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later > > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. > > > > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace > later, > > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your > boat. If > > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with > your > > steel mast, you just dump it. > > > > Gerd > > www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 11307|11226|2006-07-11 21:48:26|Aaron Williams|Re: Mast Trivia|Gary How are you going to keep it symetrical all the way up? "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: Alex, I've never seen a steel pole that tapered where the wall thickness also thinned out. So I am suggesting a constant wall thickness of say 1/8". Now lets look at your 6" mast. A six inch mast weighs a little more than 15 lbs a foot. If it tapered to 3" at the top it would weigh 7.5 lbs for the top foot, and the average weight of the whole length would be 11.25 lbs. So a 40 foot mast would be reduced in weight from 600 lbs to 450 lbs. Not much you say? Consider that a larger portion of that weight reduction would have come from the top end, so the actual effect on roll inertia would be closer to cutting the mast weight in half. Note that a 3" round tube with 1/8" wall has about 1-1/4 square inches of steel in cross section. Typically steel structures are designed for stress loads of about 10,000 psi on mild steel with tensile strength of 50,000 psi. So this 3" cross section at the top will support a compressive load from the stays of at least 12,500 lbs. Note that I've ignored buckling here, which is a large factor in a structure like a mast, but I don't think it would reduce these values much if at all. Sure you need room for good size sheaves at the top. Take a look at any crane, they have very large sheaves at the top to reduce the bending on steel cables. They don't fit them in the boom, they fit them in the sheave box at the top which is considerably larger than the boom, and welded on. Just some thoughts, Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > Didn't brent say something about the steel being a thinner wall thickness > as it tapers? It wouldn't be nearly as strong compared to a tapered pole > with equal thickness, which would then perhaps be an ideal if one could > find such a thing, for of course it's nice to get some weight out from up > high. It also sounds like there are greater loads imposed higher up the > mast than one would expect, so you don't want to thin an already thin wall > thickness. Am I right in that regard? > > Also, the steel tube is only 6" round anyhow, so is there really a need to > taper it when it isn't that big at the top anyhow? I've looked at the > sheaves on a brent boat and a 6" tube makes a nice amount of space for > them, to my eye (nice big wheels to prevent kinking or wearing of the > rope). > > I'm no mast expert, just some thoughts on it, is all. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > Brent, > You know most of the time I find little reason to argue with you. However > this time I can't agree. Even nature tapers a tree, and all the branches > are up high! Light poles have all the lights, and weight at the top. Why > does the mast have to be large at the sheaves at the top? Don't the > halyards go up and over the top? Sure the sheave box needs to be large > enough to contain the halyards but that doesn't necessarily mean the mast > needs to be that big. If it is a stayed mast all the load from the stays > is > compression straight down the center of the mast. For a Bermuda rig the > sail itself tapers, and the sail wind load on the mast decreases right to > zero at the top. > > One more thing. I used to run a sign crane with round tube boom. the > first > tube was 10" diameter while the last and 5th one was 3" in diameter. Laid > flat at radius of 75 feet I could pick just 175lbs. However if the mast > was > all the same diameter the crane couldn't even pick up it's own boom, > because > the last 20 feet would weigh a lot more than 175lb and it would bend > right > over. Now we had a basket on the end of that 3" round boom and I've > worked > from it many times, at a height of 85 feet. It is like being at the end > of > a fishing pole, but still not nearly as bouncy as a conventional bucket > truck with a fiberglass boom. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:58 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed > mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the > taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to > have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically > raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would > thus be minimal. > I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , > and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common > mistake with grown masts. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > > > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this > mast > > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized > in > > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel > and > > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, > I've never > > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the > business, and is > > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. > He > > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles > come in two > > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over > another and jam > > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. > > > > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get > strip of > > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the > one seam. I > > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small > diameter > > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how > to do this. > > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles > of pipe > > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two > pieces of > > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like > they are > > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that > small. The > > banding and buckles are really cheap too. > > > > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide > end. > > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the > strip, which > > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands > ever few > > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. > Once you > > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end > again, > > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the > strip bends > > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap > metal. It > > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole > strip into a > > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, > cutting the > > bands off as you go. > > > > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that > direction. > > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it > warps. Then I'd > > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, > by > > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that > I've done > > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on > stainless > > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was > done. > > > > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling > you'll see > > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by > assuming all the > > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' > mast has > > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was > concentrated 20 > > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the > bottom. > > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the > 20 ft > > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on > a boat by > > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole > would be. > > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall > and ending > > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very > close to a > > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually > be lower. > > > > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on > had thin > > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I > suspect > > they got their taper by rotary swaging. > > > > Origami mast anyone? > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerd" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > > > > > > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts > > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at > > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm > > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, > and > > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would > come in > > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' > mid- > > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m > would > > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. > > > > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a > > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but > does > > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel > > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other > > things equal - it does really two things: > > > > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG > > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look > different > > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit > lower. > > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring > > your CG back to where it was. > > > > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the > CG is > > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast > > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between > > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m > below > > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead > you > > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline > you > > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry > > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is > acceptable > > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 > liters of > > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal > > compromise ;-) > > > > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the > > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and > > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would > for > > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make > you > > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a > > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). > > > > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you > > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. > > > > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance > from > > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on > deck, or > > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, > > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, > > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. > Sure, > > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most > > people would expect. > > > > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional > > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there > would > > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus > steel > > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. > > > > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi > Sloop, > > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap > second > > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or > > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later > > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. > > > > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace > later, > > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your > boat. If > > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with > your > > steel mast, you just dump it. > > > > Gerd > > www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11308|11226|2006-07-11 22:23:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast Trivia|Aaron, Do you mean round? I'll admit that might be bit tricky. Especially getting the open edges to curve enough. On the other hand most sailboat masts aren't round but oval. So maybe closing up the edge and leaving it oval would make rather nice looking mast. I've done quite a lot of metal bending in my day and I think I'd try an 8 foot section first to see if I could pull it off. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > Gary > How are you going to keep it symetrical all the way up? > > "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Alex, > I've never seen a steel pole that tapered where the wall thickness also > thinned out. So I am suggesting a constant wall thickness of say 1/8". Now > lets look at your 6" mast. A six inch mast weighs a little more than 15 > lbs > a foot. If it tapered to 3" at the top it would weigh 7.5 lbs for the top > foot, and the average weight of the whole length would be 11.25 lbs. So a > 40 foot mast would be reduced in weight from 600 lbs to 450 lbs. Not much > you say? Consider that a larger portion of that weight reduction would > have > come from the top end, so the actual effect on roll inertia would be > closer > to cutting the mast weight in half. > > Note that a 3" round tube with 1/8" wall has about 1-1/4 square inches of > steel in cross section. Typically steel structures are designed for stress > loads of about 10,000 psi on mild steel with tensile strength of 50,000 > psi. > So this 3" cross section at the top will support a compressive load from > the > stays of at least 12,500 lbs. Note that I've ignored buckling here, which > is a large factor in a structure like a mast, but I don't think it would > reduce these values much if at all. > > Sure you need room for good size sheaves at the top. Take a look at any > crane, they have very large sheaves at the top to reduce the bending on > steel cables. They don't fit them in the boom, they fit them in the sheave > box at the top which is considerably larger than the boom, and welded on. > > Just some thoughts, > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Christie" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > >> Didn't brent say something about the steel being a thinner wall thickness >> as it tapers? It wouldn't be nearly as strong compared to a tapered pole >> with equal thickness, which would then perhaps be an ideal if one could >> find such a thing, for of course it's nice to get some weight out from up >> high. It also sounds like there are greater loads imposed higher up the >> mast than one would expect, so you don't want to thin an already thin >> wall >> thickness. Am I right in that regard? >> >> Also, the steel tube is only 6" round anyhow, so is there really a need >> to >> taper it when it isn't that big at the top anyhow? I've looked at the >> sheaves on a brent boat and a 6" tube makes a nice amount of space for >> them, to my eye (nice big wheels to prevent kinking or wearing of the >> rope). >> >> I'm no mast expert, just some thoughts on it, is all. >> >> Alex >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Gary H. Lucas >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> >> >> Brent, >> You know most of the time I find little reason to argue with you. However >> this time I can't agree. Even nature tapers a tree, and all the branches >> are up high! Light poles have all the lights, and weight at the top. Why >> does the mast have to be large at the sheaves at the top? Don't the >> halyards go up and over the top? Sure the sheave box needs to be large >> enough to contain the halyards but that doesn't necessarily mean the mast >> needs to be that big. If it is a stayed mast all the load from the stays >> is >> compression straight down the center of the mast. For a Bermuda rig the >> sail itself tapers, and the sail wind load on the mast decreases right to >> zero at the top. >> >> One more thing. I used to run a sign crane with round tube boom. the >> first >> tube was 10" diameter while the last and 5th one was 3" in diameter. Laid >> flat at radius of 75 feet I could pick just 175lbs. However if the mast >> was >> all the same diameter the crane couldn't even pick up it's own boom, >> because >> the last 20 feet would weigh a lot more than 175lb and it would bend >> right >> over. Now we had a basket on the end of that 3" round boom and I've >> worked >> from it many times, at a height of 85 feet. It is like being at the end >> of >> a fishing pole, but still not nearly as bouncy as a conventional bucket >> truck with a fiberglass boom. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:58 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> >> Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed >> mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the >> taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to >> have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically >> raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would >> thus be minimal. >> I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , >> and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common >> mistake with grown masts. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: >> > >> > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this >> mast >> > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized >> in >> > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel >> and >> > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, >> I've never >> > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the >> business, and is >> > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. >> He >> > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles >> come in two >> > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over >> another and jam >> > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. >> > >> > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get >> strip of >> > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the >> one seam. I >> > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small >> diameter >> > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how >> to do this. >> > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles >> of pipe >> > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two >> pieces of >> > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like >> they are >> > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that >> small. The >> > banding and buckles are really cheap too. >> > >> > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide >> end. >> > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the >> strip, which >> > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands >> ever few >> > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. >> Once you >> > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end >> again, >> > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the >> strip bends >> > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap >> metal. It >> > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole >> strip into a >> > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, >> cutting the >> > bands off as you go. >> > >> > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that >> direction. >> > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it >> warps. Then I'd >> > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, >> by >> > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that >> I've done >> > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on >> stainless >> > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was >> done. >> > >> > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling >> you'll see >> > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by >> assuming all the >> > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' >> mast has >> > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was >> concentrated 20 >> > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the >> bottom. >> > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the >> 20 ft >> > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on >> a boat by >> > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole >> would be. >> > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall >> and ending >> > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very >> close to a >> > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually >> be lower. >> > >> > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on >> had thin >> > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I >> suspect >> > they got their taper by rotary swaging. >> > >> > Origami mast anyone? >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Gerd" >> > To: >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> > >> > >> > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts >> > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at >> > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm >> > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, >> and >> > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would >> come in >> > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' >> mid- >> > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m >> would >> > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. >> > >> > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a >> > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but >> does >> > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel >> > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other >> > things equal - it does really two things: >> > >> > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG >> > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look >> different >> > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit >> lower. >> > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring >> > your CG back to where it was. >> > >> > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the >> CG is >> > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast >> > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between >> > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m >> below >> > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead >> you >> > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline >> you >> > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry >> > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is >> acceptable >> > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 >> liters of >> > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal >> > compromise ;-) >> > >> > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the >> > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and >> > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would >> for >> > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make >> you >> > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a >> > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). >> > >> > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you >> > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. >> > >> > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance >> from >> > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on >> deck, or >> > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, >> > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, >> > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. >> Sure, >> > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most >> > people would expect. >> > >> > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional >> > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there >> would >> > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus >> steel >> > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. >> > >> > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi >> Sloop, >> > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap >> second >> > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or >> > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later >> > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. >> > >> > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace >> later, >> > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your >> boat. If >> > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with >> your >> > steel mast, you just dump it. >> > >> > Gerd >> > www.yago-project.com >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 11309|732|2006-07-11 22:55:20|colin edley|Re: Lead|Alco made lead for battery manufacturers, it may be alloyed with tin but in very low quantities, I'd buy it. Cedley Alex Christie wrote: If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...it's lead. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 9:17 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Lead I have found some 25 lbs bars marked ALCO. Anyone know how to confirm the lead content. It was suposed to have come from an old wood sailboat When I banged 2 bar together they rang almost like steel. I drilled a hole in one and it is soft like lead and melted at about 600 deg F At .50 per pound I want to be sure of quality. Aaron in Alaska ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11310|11226|2006-07-11 23:16:17|Aaron Williams|Re: Mast Trivia|Gary Yes round or oval but it would still have to be a uniform shape. I like the idea but it seems to make for a lot of extra work. If someone was good with their math you could make a cone but then you would have lots of extra welding. Maybe if you Incorporated a sail track the strip you cut out would create the taper. Aaron in Alaska "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: Aaron, Do you mean round? I'll admit that might be bit tricky. Especially getting the open edges to curve enough. On the other hand most sailboat masts aren't round but oval. So maybe closing up the edge and leaving it oval would make rather nice looking mast. I've done quite a lot of metal bending in my day and I think I'd try an 8 foot section first to see if I could pull it off. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > Gary > How are you going to keep it symetrical all the way up? > > "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Alex, > I've never seen a steel pole that tapered where the wall thickness also > thinned out. So I am suggesting a constant wall thickness of say 1/8". Now > lets look at your 6" mast. A six inch mast weighs a little more than 15 > lbs > a foot. If it tapered to 3" at the top it would weigh 7.5 lbs for the top > foot, and the average weight of the whole length would be 11.25 lbs. So a > 40 foot mast would be reduced in weight from 600 lbs to 450 lbs. Not much > you say? Consider that a larger portion of that weight reduction would > have > come from the top end, so the actual effect on roll inertia would be > closer > to cutting the mast weight in half. > > Note that a 3" round tube with 1/8" wall has about 1-1/4 square inches of > steel in cross section. Typically steel structures are designed for stress > loads of about 10,000 psi on mild steel with tensile strength of 50,000 > psi. > So this 3" cross section at the top will support a compressive load from > the > stays of at least 12,500 lbs. Note that I've ignored buckling here, which > is a large factor in a structure like a mast, but I don't think it would > reduce these values much if at all. > > Sure you need room for good size sheaves at the top. Take a look at any > crane, they have very large sheaves at the top to reduce the bending on > steel cables. They don't fit them in the boom, they fit them in the sheave > box at the top which is considerably larger than the boom, and welded on. > > Just some thoughts, > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Christie" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia > >> Didn't brent say something about the steel being a thinner wall thickness >> as it tapers? It wouldn't be nearly as strong compared to a tapered pole >> with equal thickness, which would then perhaps be an ideal if one could >> find such a thing, for of course it's nice to get some weight out from up >> high. It also sounds like there are greater loads imposed higher up the >> mast than one would expect, so you don't want to thin an already thin >> wall >> thickness. Am I right in that regard? >> >> Also, the steel tube is only 6" round anyhow, so is there really a need >> to >> taper it when it isn't that big at the top anyhow? I've looked at the >> sheaves on a brent boat and a 6" tube makes a nice amount of space for >> them, to my eye (nice big wheels to prevent kinking or wearing of the >> rope). >> >> I'm no mast expert, just some thoughts on it, is all. >> >> Alex >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Gary H. Lucas >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> >> >> Brent, >> You know most of the time I find little reason to argue with you. However >> this time I can't agree. Even nature tapers a tree, and all the branches >> are up high! Light poles have all the lights, and weight at the top. Why >> does the mast have to be large at the sheaves at the top? Don't the >> halyards go up and over the top? Sure the sheave box needs to be large >> enough to contain the halyards but that doesn't necessarily mean the mast >> needs to be that big. If it is a stayed mast all the load from the stays >> is >> compression straight down the center of the mast. For a Bermuda rig the >> sail itself tapers, and the sail wind load on the mast decreases right to >> zero at the top. >> >> One more thing. I used to run a sign crane with round tube boom. the >> first >> tube was 10" diameter while the last and 5th one was 3" in diameter. Laid >> flat at radius of 75 feet I could pick just 175lbs. However if the mast >> was >> all the same diameter the crane couldn't even pick up it's own boom, >> because >> the last 20 feet would weigh a lot more than 175lb and it would bend >> right >> over. Now we had a basket on the end of that 3" round boom and I've >> worked >> from it many times, at a height of 85 feet. It is like being at the end >> of >> a fishing pole, but still not nearly as bouncy as a conventional bucket >> truck with a fiberglass boom. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brentswain38" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 1:58 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> >> Tapering a pole all the way from the bottom is ideal for an unstayed >> mast, but not for a stayed one. For a typical bermuda rig , the >> taper should only begin 70% above the decks. This and the need to >> have enough width at the top for sheaves and fittings drastically >> raduces the weight advantage of tapering. The weight saving would >> thus be minimal. >> I've seen people taper a grown mast all the way from the bottom , >> and the top was so bendy they had to be scrapped. This is a common >> mistake with grown masts. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" >> wrote: >> > >> > I had a long drive to a job the other day and I thought about this >> mast >> > thread. I used to be an electrical contractor, and we specialized >> in >> > outdoor area lighting, so I've installed and removed lots of steel >> and >> > aluminum light poles. You know, except for some real short ones, >> I've never >> > seen one that wasn't tapered. My brother is still in the >> business, and is >> > possibly the largest sports lighting contractor in the country. >> He >> > frequently sets steel poles over a 100 feet tall. Those poles >> come in two >> > or three pieces, and they just slip one tapered section over >> another and jam >> > them together with a comealong, no bolts needed. >> > >> > So how about an Origami tapered mast? I'm thinking you could get >> strip of >> > steel and cut into a tapered strip then roll it up and weld the >> one seam. I >> > just spent time working in a tube mill watching them make small >> diameter >> > steel tubing from a strip of steel. I have some thoughts on how >> to do this. >> > They make banding tools for putting steel strapping around bundles >> of pipe >> > and such. A push type band tensioner will allow you to take two >> pieces of >> > 3'4" pipe and band them together so tight that it is almost like >> they are >> > welded. The buckle can still be crimped even on a loop that >> small. The >> > banding and buckles are really cheap too. >> > >> > So you take your strip of steel and start bending it at the wide >> end. >> > Possibly by banding over a piece large diameter pipe and the >> strip, which >> > will cause it to bend towards the pipe. You keep applying bands >> ever few >> > inches moving down the strip as it bends towards the narrow end. >> Once you >> > have the whole strip partially bent you start back at the big end >> again, >> > banding between the previous bands. They'll loosen up as the >> strip bends >> > further and you can just slip them off and toss them in the scrap >> metal. It >> > may take 10 passes or more but eventually you'll pull the whole >> strip into a >> > round tapered tube. At that point you can weld up the seam, >> cutting the >> > bands off as you go. >> > >> > I expect that the welding on one side will warp the tube in that >> direction. >> > I'd do a short tube first for practice, and see how much it >> warps. Then I'd >> > prebend the tube in the opposite direction by the amount it warps, >> by >> > blocking it up in the center and holding the ends down. Note that >> I've done >> > this many times when welding a number of large side outlets on >> stainless >> > pipes as long as 40 feet and got really straight pipes when I was >> done. >> > >> > If you think a little more about a mast and its effect on rolling >> you'll see >> > that two masts of the same height can be compared simply by >> assuming all the >> > mass is at the center of gravity half way up the mast. So a 40' >> mast has >> > the inertia with regards to roll as if it's entire mass was >> concentrated 20 >> > feet off the deck. Tapered poles have most of their weight at the >> bottom. >> > We often picked up a 60 ft tapered pole completely balanced at the >> 20 ft >> > point. This would lower the center of gravity for a 60 ft mast on >> a boat by >> > 10 feet! It is also considerably lighter than a straight pole >> would be. >> > Consider the weight starting with a 5" diameter with a 1/8" wall >> and ending >> > with a 2" diameter and a 1/8" wall. So the weight might be very >> close to a >> > straight aluminum tube, while the center of gravity would actually >> be lower. >> > >> > By the way. All the aluminum tapered poles I have ever worked on >> had thin >> > walls on the large end, and VERY thick walls at the small end. I >> suspect >> > they got their taper by rotary swaging. >> > >> > Origami mast anyone? >> > >> > Gary H. Lucas >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Gerd" >> > To: >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 3:57 AM >> > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia >> > >> > >> > For a good comparison of steel versus wood versus aluminuim masts >> > check out Dudley Dix's calculations at >> > http://www.dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm >> > Turns out that a steel mast is lighter than a solid spruce mast, >> and >> > thinner (less turbulence) compared to an alloy mast that would >> come in >> > about 2 kg / meter lighter in his example of a gaff rigg for a 30' >> mid- >> > heavy cruiser. On a heavy boat with shorter mast these 2 kg/m >> would >> > raise the center of gravity only VERY little. >> > >> > Actually talking about weight high up making the boat heel is a >> > simplification that is easy to understand and scares people, but >> does >> > not really help to understand the issue. This weight does not heel >> > the boat (without wind it still remains upright), but - all other >> > things equal - it does really two things: >> > >> > 1) it raises the center of gravity, and having a slightly higher CG >> > you would have less stability, meaning your curve would look >> different >> > and your AVS angle of vanishing stability would be a little bit >> lower. >> > To compensate for this you would need to add weight below to bring >> > your CG back to where it was. >> > >> > I don't know the numbers of Dix's boat, but lets assume that the >> CG is >> > just above the WL, and the CG of a ten meter long deck stepped mast >> > would be 6 m above the boats CG, with a difference of 20 kg between >> > steel and alloy mast you would have to add 120 kg at about 1 m >> below >> > the boats CG to your ballast. That is not nothing... if it's lead >> you >> > have to pay for it, and if you want the boat on the same Waterline >> you >> > also have to deduct it from something else, build lighter or carry >> > less beer, but if your talking about a heavy cruiser, it is >> acceptable >> > to get the same STATIC stability. Carrying an additional 240 >> liters of >> > beer in the bilges at 50 cm below the CG would be an ideal >> > compromise ;-) >> > >> > 2) Dynamic bahaviour - this might be more important really - the >> > distribution of your masses is different, so the motion and >> > resistances to them are different. A heavier weight topsides would >> for >> > example first offer a resistance to a smaller wave trying to make >> you >> > roll a coupe of degrees (good), but once in movement would like a >> > pendulum want to continue and then swing back and keep it up(bad). >> > >> > This applies not only to the mast, you get the same thing when you >> > load the ends and the boat will want to hobby horse. >> > >> > Also, looking at the real numbers and weights and their distance >> from >> > the CG, you should also calculate what a heavy dink stored on >> deck, or >> > Radar domes and other stuff high up in the mast does to your boat, >> > alla the stuff that most people with alloy masts will easily do, >> > include the fittings and so on and it all becomes very relative. >> Sure, >> > there is a significant difference, but still much less than most >> > people would expect. >> > >> > The steel-mast subject brings often a very heated and emotional >> > discussion, so it is important to keep things rational. If there >> would >> > be no alloy masts and if we would be discussing only wood versus >> steel >> > (that was not so long ago) steel would be a very valid option. >> > >> > Yes, I would prefer an aluminium mast, especially for a marconi >> Sloop, >> > because I do like things optimized, but unless you get a cheap >> second >> > hand mast, or if your only option is between steel and wood, or >> > between steel and go sailing now or alloy and do it 2 years later >> > steel is worth thinking about. I do, for my gaff rigged Yago. >> > >> > Finally, the mast is the one thing that you can easily replace >> later, >> > provided you have the cash, without any major surgery on your >> boat. If >> > after a couple of years you have the funds, and are unhappy with >> your >> > steel mast, you just dump it. >> > >> > Gerd >> > www.yago-project.com >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006 >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11311|11226|2006-07-12 00:41:50|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 05:40:02PM -0700, tom wrote: > > What would work better than turning off youre alternator and takeing a > chance of damaging it would be a battery switch and switch it to youre > starting battery only if you needed the extra HP that battery should allways > be up compared to the house batteries. You can't damage an alternator by turning off its field; you can, however, damage it by using a battery switch that disconnects its output from the load for even a second. That's a classic way to fry your diodes, and it's the reason that West Marine, etc. can sell their "ZapStopper" (a 50-cent zener diode) for lots of dollars. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11312|11312|2006-07-12 00:53:06|silascrosby|Bluebird of Thorne|I thought the group might be interested in a sighting I had today in the inner harbour of Victoria. The original 50' Bluebird of Thorne refinished and re-rigged by John Dyson(sp?) of Lopez Island in the San Juans. This boat was designed by Arthur Robb and built in 1961. Not Origami but a pioneering , fast, twin-keeled steel boat(50' x 12' x 5.5'). John found the stripped hull about 14 years ago in California and spent those years rebuilding her in a shed on Lopez Is. Launched this spring and re-rigged in Victoria last week. He hasn't had her sailing yet but the Schattauer sails (Seattle) are on order.Built with overlapped welded seams but with rivetted ribs. Apparently the hull is in good shape after 45 years. I didn't get a chance for a close look because he had been in the pub watching the World Cup Final and had to get off the dock before he had to pay another $66 for another night ! I asked , he does not have a website. It was great to see this icon of steel yacht history. cheers, Steve Millar| 11313|11226|2006-07-12 09:40:11|Ray|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > maybe a switch for an electric clutch, > > > > Cutting off the field current to the alternator would make the > > alternator essentially freewheel (no load); that only takes a cheap > > switch in the field wire. > --Ken While you could easily adapt an electrically switched clutch ( think automotive A/C compressor clutch), the easiest way to do this is to cut the field w/a simple switch. One of my hobbies is Land Speed Racing, and we do this to eliminate the alternator's HP consumption while making a pass. When we go through the timing lights at the end of the run, flip the switch ( wired to the headlight high-beam switch via a simple relay) and the altnernator starts putting juice back into the battery. You'd have to calculate your vessel's current consumption to determine how long you could run like this w/out depleting the battery bank - but, if you just need it for an emergency egress ( especially if you're running a diesel that doesn't have an ignition system ), the switch is one elegantly simple solution. My $.02, Ray Kimbro| 11314|11226|2006-07-12 12:23:07|put_to_sea|Re: Mast Trivia|Tom Colvin's book "Steel Boatbuilding" goes into considerable detail about building a tapered steel mast. I know Brent and Tom don't agree on a lot of things, but this book to one of my favorites, after Brent's book of course;) Amos --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Gary > Yes round or oval but it would still have to be a uniform shape. > I like the idea but it seems to make for a lot of extra work. > If someone was good with their math you could make a cone but then you would have lots of extra welding. > Maybe if you Incorporated a sail track the strip you cut out would create the taper. > Aaron in Alaska > | 11315|11226|2006-07-12 19:32:42|mickeyolaf|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|It was the Balmar rep in Seattle I spoke to before I bought their alternator who was concerned what size of engine I was putting the alternator on and how many batteries I had etc. It was his comment that while the loss from the alternator was one hp per 25 amps the parasitic loss at the shaft was twice that. It is shaft hp that counts. At least that's what men say about boats and women say about men. It seems that an engine of 60 hp is really netting 50 continuous. Another 10 hp will be lost to parasitic add on's. With the propeller losing an average of 40% the 60 is really a 24 hp engine when u need it. Which is why I bought the 60 instead of a 36. This was why I was concerned about the Mit's being 13 hp. What hp is actually reaching the shaft? A BS 26 is not a small boat and most sailors would like to reach hull speed under power. Wouldn't an electric engine be better at low hp? I don't know very much about propulsion systems but could solar panels, a wind charger, a trolling generator when sailing, a small gas generator when needed (and the odd plugging-in to a dock) keep batteries up sufficently to have electric propulsion? Electric seems clean, no oil to change, no salt water cooling, no fuel tank, no filters, no noise and on and on. Batteries could be ballast. And if someone is going to install a small diesel that in the end is really not going to push their boat at hull speed then electric seems a good thing to look at. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the > Mitsubishi generate a true 13? > > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there > will be losses at the > > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes > 8hp to drive it via a > > belt. > > 8hp is approx. 6kw. At about 14.4v, charging (1.4kw), and even 50% > efficiency (quite low), you're looking at less than 4hp. If you > have a 24 volt system, that's another story. > > BTW, if you're not charging, the alternator is not working and if > it's not working, it's not pulling hp (a measure of work) from the > engine. > > eric S/V Nebaras > | 11316|11226|2006-07-12 21:04:18|Aaron Williams|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|Electric motors for sailboats ? http://re-e-power.com/ I found this interesting Aaron in Alaska mickeyolaf wrote: It was the Balmar rep in Seattle I spoke to before I bought their alternator who was concerned what size of engine I was putting the alternator on and how many batteries I had etc. It was his comment that while the loss from the alternator was one hp per 25 amps the parasitic loss at the shaft was twice that. It is shaft hp that counts. At least that's what men say about boats and women say about men. It seems that an engine of 60 hp is really netting 50 continuous. Another 10 hp will be lost to parasitic add on's. With the propeller losing an average of 40% the 60 is really a 24 hp engine when u need it. Which is why I bought the 60 instead of a 36. This was why I was concerned about the Mit's being 13 hp. What hp is actually reaching the shaft? A BS 26 is not a small boat and most sailors would like to reach hull speed under power. Wouldn't an electric engine be better at low hp? I don't know very much about propulsion systems but could solar panels, a wind charger, a trolling generator when sailing, a small gas generator when needed (and the odd plugging-in to a dock) keep batteries up sufficently to have electric propulsion? Electric seems clean, no oil to change, no salt water cooling, no fuel tank, no filters, no noise and on and on. Batteries could be ballast. And if someone is going to install a small diesel that in the end is really not going to push their boat at hull speed then electric seems a good thing to look at. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the > Mitsubishi generate a true 13? > > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there > will be losses at the > > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes > 8hp to drive it via a > > belt. > > 8hp is approx. 6kw. At about 14.4v, charging (1.4kw), and even 50% > efficiency (quite low), you're looking at less than 4hp. If you > have a 24 volt system, that's another story. > > BTW, if you're not charging, the alternator is not working and if > it's not working, it's not pulling hp (a measure of work) from the > engine. > > eric S/V Nebaras > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11317|11226|2006-07-12 21:50:44|jim dorey|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|mickeyolaf wrote: > It is shaft hp that counts. maybe couple it to the, uh, pulley cone? should reduce a little of the losses, maybe.| 11318|11226|2006-07-12 22:04:14|cirejay|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > It was the Balmar rep in Seattle I spoke to before I bought their alternator who was > concerned what size of engine I was putting the alternator The concern isn't so much for the size of the engine but the side loads on the shaft. Yanmar recently told me to not put anything bigger than a 160 on their new 39hp engine. At that, they insisted that I keep the original one in place to help balance the loading. The good thing about doing it that way is that you always have a spare in place and you can use to charge a small starting battery while the big one handles the house bank. on and how many batteries I > had etc. The old rule of thumb, and a pretty good one, is 4 times the amp/hours in battery capacity of the alternator. In your case, that would equal 400 amp/hour battery(s). Now, that's for the standard deep discharge flooded cell battery such as a Trojan. If you are going to 'move up' go to AGM's. They are the same price as Gel's and leave Gel's in the dark (pun intended) when it comes to charging. An AGM can take all the amps you can throw at it (all batteries are voltage sensitive) and greatly reduce your charging time. If you go to AGM's go all the way and stay away from the spiral ones. They would have us believe there is a free lunch out there and maybe there is, but they ain't it. It was his comment that while the loss from the alternator was one hp per 25 > amps the parasitic loss at the shaft was twice that. Malarkey It is shaft hp that counts. At least that's > what men say about boats and women say about men. I'm not going there:-) > It seems that an engine of 60 hp is really netting 50 continuous. Another 10 hp will be lost > to parasitic add on's. You're mixing your metaphors. Continuous hp has nothing to do with 'parasitic loss' Continuous hp is just hp that it can 24/7. With the propeller losing an average of 40% the 60 is really a 24 hp > engine when u need it. This is taken into account when sizing an engine. Using the continuous rating of your diesel engine, if you have 5hp per ton then you have absolutely plenty of power. Which is why I bought the 60 instead of a 36. > This was why I was concerned about the Mit's being 13 hp. What hp is actually reaching > the shaft? A BS 26 is not a small boat and most sailors would like to reach hull speed > under power. Heck, around here most sailors think that speed limits don't apply to them, even under power. > Wouldn't an electric engine be better at low hp? I don't know very much about propulsion > systems but could solar panels, a wind charger, a trolling generator when sailing, a small > gas generator when needed (and the odd plugging-in to a dock) keep batteries up > sufficently to have electric propulsion? I love electric power and could go on for hours, but, don't worry, I won't :-). eric S/V Nebaras| 11319|11226|2006-07-13 00:30:34|tom|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|Hey Mickey I thought about going electric like youre describing,it would be great for short runs, but after setting in the cockpit trying to figure how to fit all that stuff in and on the 26, it aint that big and it seemed to cluterd for my liking. to run the 26 at hull speed with electric would be a heck of an amp load I think you would have to settle for somthing around the 4 knot range to have a couple of hours run time, I quess it all depends on what you want to do and where youre sailing. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 4:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels > It was the Balmar rep in Seattle I spoke to before I bought their > alternator who was > concerned what size of engine I was putting the alternator on and how many > batteries I > had etc. It was his comment that while the loss from the alternator was > one hp per 25 > amps the parasitic loss at the shaft was twice that. It is shaft hp that > counts. At least that's > what men say about boats and women say about men. > It seems that an engine of 60 hp is really netting 50 continuous. Another > 10 hp will be lost > to parasitic add on's. With the propeller losing an average of 40% the 60 > is really a 24 hp > engine when u need it. Which is why I bought the 60 instead of a 36. > This was why I was concerned about the Mit's being 13 hp. What hp is > actually reaching > the shaft? A BS 26 is not a small boat and most sailors would like to > reach hull speed > under power. > Wouldn't an electric engine be better at low hp? I don't know very much > about propulsion > systems but could solar panels, a wind charger, a trolling generator when > sailing, a small > gas generator when needed (and the odd plugging-in to a dock) keep > batteries up > sufficently to have electric propulsion? > Electric seems clean, no oil to change, no salt water cooling, no fuel > tank, no filters, no > noise and on and on. Batteries could be ballast. And if someone is going > to install a small > diesel that in the end is really not going to push their boat at hull > speed then electric > seems a good thing to look at. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" >> wrote: >> > >> > My Yanmar 60 actually puts out less than 56 hp. Does the >> Mitsubishi generate a true 13? >> > Another issue is the power taken off by an alternator plus there >> will be losses at the >> > transmission etc. The Balmar 100 Amp alternator on my Yanmar takes >> 8hp to drive it via a >> > belt. >> >> 8hp is approx. 6kw. At about 14.4v, charging (1.4kw), and even 50% >> efficiency (quite low), you're looking at less than 4hp. If you >> have a 24 volt system, that's another story. >> >> BTW, if you're not charging, the alternator is not working and if >> it's not working, it's not pulling hp (a measure of work) from the >> engine. >> >> eric S/V Nebaras >> > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11320|11226|2006-07-13 12:11:09|David A. Frantz|Re: new 13HP Mitsubishi diesels|What is the short coming of spiral AGM batteries? This is the first I've heard of such an issue and wondering what is up. I have a project in mind that would work nicely with AGM batteries and as we all know you can never have to much info. dave cirejay wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > It was the Balmar rep in Seattle I spoke to before I bought their > alternator who was > > concerned what size of engine I was putting the alternator > > The concern isn't so much for the size of the engine but the side > loads on the shaft. Yanmar recently told me to not put anything > bigger than a 160 on their new 39hp engine. At that, they insisted > that I keep the original one in place to help balance the loading. > The good thing about doing it that way is that you always have a > spare in place and you can use to charge a small starting battery > while the big one handles the house bank. > > on and how many batteries I > > had etc. > > The old rule of thumb, and a pretty good one, is 4 times the > amp/hours in battery capacity of the alternator. In your case, that > would equal 400 amp/hour battery(s). Now, that's for the standard > deep discharge flooded cell battery such as a Trojan. > > If you are going to 'move up' go to AGM's. They are the same price > as Gel's and leave Gel's in the dark (pun intended) when it comes to > charging. An AGM can take all the amps you can throw at it (all > batteries are voltage sensitive) and greatly reduce your charging > time. If you go to AGM's go all the way and stay away from the > spiral ones. They would have us believe there is a free lunch out > there and maybe there is, but they ain't it. > > It was his comment that while the loss from the alternator was one > hp per 25 > > amps the parasitic loss at the shaft was twice that. > > Malarkey > > It is shaft hp that counts. At least that's > > what men say about boats and women say about men. > > I'm not going there:-) > > > It seems that an engine of 60 hp is really netting 50 continuous. > Another 10 hp will be lost > > to parasitic add on's. > > You're mixing your metaphors. Continuous hp has nothing to do > with 'parasitic loss' Continuous hp is just hp that it can 24/7. > > With the propeller losing an average of 40% the 60 is really a 24 hp > > engine when u need it. > > This is taken into account when sizing an engine. Using the > continuous rating of your diesel engine, if you have 5hp per ton > then you have absolutely plenty of power. > > Which is why I bought the 60 instead of a 36. > > This was why I was concerned about the Mit's being 13 hp. What hp > is actually reaching > > the shaft? A BS 26 is not a small boat and most sailors would like > to reach hull speed > > under power. > > Heck, around here most sailors think that speed limits don't apply > to them, even under power. > > > Wouldn't an electric engine be better at low hp? I don't know very > much about propulsion > > systems but could solar panels, a wind charger, a trolling > generator when sailing, a small > > gas generator when needed (and the odd plugging-in to a dock) keep > batteries up > > sufficently to have electric propulsion? > > I love electric power and could go on for hours, but, don't worry, I > won't :-). > > eric S/V Nebaras > > | 11321|11226|2006-07-13 13:00:49|NORMAN MOORE|Re: Mast Trivia|Speaking of this book, the most remarkable bit of mast trivia in it is Colvin's modification of Euler's formula for mast strength of steel masts. Instead of dividing by L squared he makes a footnote to change this to (.70L) squared which in effect doubles the strength of steel compared to other materials. You can then reduce diameter and/or thickness of the steel mast while meeting the same strength target and the weight is comparable to that of a mast made from sch 40 or even sch 20 AL pipe. I don't know if this applies to AL extrusions, because I haven't calculated that. put_to_sea wrote: Tom Colvin's book "Steel Boatbuilding" goes into considerable detail about building a tapered steel mast. I know Brent and Tom don't agree on a lot of things, but this book to one of my favorites, after Brent's book of course;) Amos --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Gary > Yes round or oval but it would still have to be a uniform shape. > I like the idea but it seems to make for a lot of extra work. > If someone was good with their math you could make a cone but then you would have lots of extra welding. > Maybe if you Incorporated a sail track the strip you cut out would create the taper. > Aaron in Alaska > Norm Moore 559-645-5314 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11322|11322|2006-07-13 16:42:56|brutus1940|boat steel|What thickness of steel is used on the hull of the 26 foot swain boat? I thought I saw on someones e-mail about 10 guage. That sounds awful light to me, but I have not built a boat out of steel yet. Thanks for any information you all can give me. I suppose the thickness is all given out on the plans for the different parts.| 11323|11226|2006-07-13 16:45:55|dreemer1962|Re: Mast Trivia|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: ...Even nature tapers a tree,... But tree doesn't have to deal with a wires attached to the top trying with an enormous force to push the tree right into the ground or bend it, as happens to the stayed mast. Eric W. Sponberg has a nice article about basic boat related structures math: http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/ArticlesEngineering.htm| 11324|11226|2006-07-13 18:21:42|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Mast Trivia|On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 08:36:37PM -0000, dreemer1962 wrote: > > Eric W. Sponberg has a nice article about basic boat related structures > math: > http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/ArticlesEngineering.htm Ah, a fellow St. Augustinian - right here in the same small town as me. Yeah, he's a pretty sharp guy - has a lot of thoughtful stuff on his site, well worth exploring. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11325|11322|2006-07-13 19:37:55|tom|Re: boat steel|Hello Brutus Yes the hull plate on the 26 is 10 gage and the cabin and deck call for 1/8" , I used 12 gage for that part whitch is a little under 1/8". I think there is a material list in the files section for the 26 if that will help you Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brutus1940" To: Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: [origamiboats] boat steel > What thickness of steel is used on the hull of the 26 foot swain boat? > I thought I saw on someones e-mail about 10 guage. That sounds awful > light to me, but I have not built a boat out of steel yet. Thanks for > any information you all can give me. I suppose the thickness is all > given out on the plans for the different parts. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11326|11226|2006-07-13 20:36:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mast Trivia|You must be from California or one of those desert places. All the trees around here have huge green sails that put about as much load on the trunk as any sail boat ever sees. Sometimes in storms they pull their keel right out of the ground too! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "dreemer1962" To: Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Mast Trivia --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: ...Even nature tapers a tree,... But tree doesn't have to deal with a wires attached to the top trying with an enormous force to push the tree right into the ground or bend it, as happens to the stayed mast. Eric W. Sponberg has a nice article about basic boat related structures math: http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/ArticlesEngineering.htm | 11327|11327|2006-07-13 20:50:22|tom|lead balasting|Hello All Quick question on balasting, do you do anything to the steel IE clean mill scale,rust off befor you put the lead in or just put in in and seal it ? The outfit that I found that had good clean lead for 25 cents a pound have it in small strips about 3" long x 1" wide x 1/8" thick so I might just buy what I need and layer it in and tamp it with a big bar instead on melting it in Thanks Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11328|11322|2006-07-13 21:01:42|R Graffi|Re: boat steel|Yes there are material lists for various size boats. But I am trying to get a price and they are asking me what type of plate do I want the common type is here in australia is AS/NZS 3678 - 250 XLERPLATE® structural grade steel in thickness down to 5mm is this the type I should be getting a price on for the various size plate flat bar and the Stringer angle or T's what type of tubeing would be suitable for the mast Again from the bluescope steel site above. Loyds A grade steels are only available on special order and tonnages which rules them out . Regards RG > Hello Brutus > Yes the hull plate on the 26 is 10 gage and the cabin and deck call for > 1/8" , I used 12 gage for that part whitch is a little under 1/8". I > think > there is a material list in the files section for the 26 if that will > help > you > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brutus1940" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 1:24 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] boat steel > > > What thickness of steel is used on the hull of the 26 foot swain boat? > > I thought I saw on someones e-mail about 10 guage. That sounds awful > > light to me, but I have not built a boat out of steel yet. Thanks for > > any information you all can give me. I suppose the thickness is all > > given out on the plans for the different parts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11329|11322|2006-07-13 21:33:47|tom|Re: boat steel|Looking at there site it is an exuivelent to overseas A 36 grade whitch is what we call mild steel and that is what I used A 36 mild steel, there showing 5 mm and up 10 gage mikes at 3.2 mm. 5mm is about the same as 3/16" and I think that would be way to heavy for the 26 its about 2 lbs a square foot more than 10 gage Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "R Graffi" To: Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] boat steel > Yes there are material lists for various size boats. > But I am trying to get a price and they are asking me what type > of plate do I want the common type is here in australia is > AS/NZS 3678 - 250 XLERPLATE® > > structural grade steel in thickness down to 5mm > is this the type I should be getting a price on for the various size > plate flat bar and the Stringer angle or T's > what type of tubeing would be suitable for the mast > Again from the bluescope steel site above. > > Loyds A grade steels are only available on special order and tonnages > which rules them out . > Regards RG > >> Hello Brutus >> Yes the hull plate on the 26 is 10 gage and the cabin and deck call for >> 1/8" , I used 12 gage for that part whitch is a little under 1/8". I >> think >> there is a material list in the files section for the 26 if that will >> help >> you >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brutus1940" > >> To: > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 1:24 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] boat steel >> >> > What thickness of steel is used on the hull of the 26 foot swain boat? >> > I thought I saw on someones e-mail about 10 guage. That sounds awful >> > light to me, but I have not built a boat out of steel yet. Thanks for >> > any information you all can give me. I suppose the thickness is all >> > given out on the plans for the different parts. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11330|11327|2006-07-14 16:51:38|brentswain38|Re: lead balasting|No . Once you seal out all outside sources of oxygen , nothing can oxidise. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Quick question on balasting, do you do anything to the steel IE clean mill scale,rust off befor you put the lead in or just put in in and seal it ? > The outfit that I found that had good clean lead for 25 cents a pound have it in small strips about 3" long x 1" wide x 1/8" thick so I might just buy what I need and layer it in and tamp it with a big bar instead on melting it in > Thanks > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11331|11331|2006-07-14 17:00:16|brentswain38|Alternator welder diodes|I found some good alternator welder diodes at Quaele Electronics. Thery are #wr4110640 Their capacity is 40 amps each , giving me 240 amps capability for six of them,, and will handle a spike to 600 volts, far more than I will ever ge out of an alternator.I used three foreward and three reverse ones . I put the negative ones in the side of my aluminium cockpit locker, which dissapates the heat so well it never gets warm. The positive side I put in the top of an aluminium plate which has the bottom in a bucket of water ,which never gets warm. It doesn't have the zing of the original alternator diodes, but that may be a simple matter of buying a bigger alternator at the auto wreckers. They cost me a total of $54 , far less than I was expecting to pay. Brent| 11332|11243|2006-07-14 17:10:09|brentswain38|Re: Pulling Hull Together BIGGER....|The biggest hull I ever did was a 47 footer , after which I visited the physio therapist regularly. I then decided to refuse to build anything over 36 feet myself. Friends built a 53 footer usig origami methods from 1/4 inch plate .The flush decks were the real killer.a temporary use of a crane there would have been a good idea, even if only to lift them roughly in place.You'd only need it for a few hours. The hull wasn't a problem. 5 ton chain comealongs can be rented for the day or two they are needed. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, out of all of the hundred's of questions I've asked you (and to > which you always 'graciously' replied :) I missed one of the most > important and now seems an opportune time. > > What's the biggest origami you've ever tried and for my almost 43ft > LOD variation, what kind of additional equipment can you see me > needing to put the basic hull together? (the rough drafts are in the > photo's section under Seer's etc.) I seem to recall you posting > somewhere that you did something over 40 feet once and were determined > to never do that again. :) > > I was tossing some rough numbers around on sheet weights etc. and the > numbers are pretty sobering. It looks to me like either renting a > crane or building somewhere with a heavy duty overhead lift and some > commercial/industrial comealongs looks like a 'real good idea'. But > then I think about the various 40's under construction and come back > to thinking well, is it really that much more? Also, what do you > think about using some of the hydraulic equip around that they have > for straightening car frames etc. Any experience with that stuff? > > As always thanks in advance for your thoughts or anyone else's out > there, especially the 40ft builders. :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Yes, outside comealongs work well for the aft centreline, once it's > > high enough off the ground to get it in. For the foreward centreline > > and the chines , which are flat on the ground when you start,they won't > > work. If a chine pops it's tacks after it's up you can use an outside > > comealong to pull it back, as you already have the angle.. If you > > accidentally put a tack where the wire is , it will usually break the > > wire instantly. Be careful not to tack over the wire. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ragsdale wrote: > > > > > > Here is the method I used along the aft when pulling my hulls > > together. It was > > > a combination of come alongs on the inside and outside and some C- > > clamps. > > > (600kB pic) > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday 04 July 2006 1:43 pm, brentswain38 wrote: > > > > It would be extremely difficult without overhead cranes , and you > > > > wouldn't have the benefits of the angles lifting the plate up off > > > > the ground.This is easy to do by hand on a model, but a different > > > > story with full sized sheets. It would break your comealongs before > > > > it would go together. It may work for the aft end of the > > > > centreline , but nowhere else. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > | 11333|11333|2006-07-14 17:18:43|brentswain38|Marking thru hulls|After having had to search for thru hulls which needed clearing from the outside ,I decided to use a different colour of antifouling around them to make them easy to find while holding my breath. Brent| 11334|11333|2006-07-14 18:38:10|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Marking thru hulls|On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 08:47:01PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > After having had to search for thru hulls which needed clearing from > the outside ,I decided to use a different colour of antifouling around > them to make them easy to find while holding my breath. I met a German ironworker down in the Virgin Islands who had built a 72' aluminium boat for himself; one of the nicest features I saw (and there were many clever ones on that boat) was an 18"x18" sea chest. It was just off the centerline (he had it under his main companion) and came above the waterline, and all his saltwater intakes came off the sides of it. If any of them got clogged, he just loosened four wingnuts and flipped down the toggles, and the top (which was gasketed) came right off. It was a case of envy at first sight. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11335|11226|2006-07-14 19:16:23|brentswain38|Re: Mast Trivia|A friend had his bulwark caps ovaled in a brake press at a steel shop for $60. Having been a brake press operator I can say it takes less than 5 minutes to do the job. Many people back in the 70's were having aluminium pipes squashed to an oval for masts in Brake presses. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > > Tom Colvin's book "Steel Boatbuilding" goes into considerable detail > about building a tapered steel mast. I know Brent and Tom don't agree > on a lot of things, but this book to one of my favorites, after Brent's > book of course;) > > Amos > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > Gary > > Yes round or oval but it would still have to be a uniform shape. > > I like the idea but it seems to make for a lot of extra work. > > If someone was good with their math you could make a cone but then > you would have lots of extra welding. > > Maybe if you Incorporated a sail track the strip you cut out would > create the taper. > > Aaron in Alaska > > > | 11336|11336|2006-07-14 19:31:42|brentswain38|Aluninium and black rubber|A friend cruising SE Asia for many decades , pulled his aluminium tanks and found serious corrosion holes where he had laid the tank on black rubber. He said the black in the rubber was carbon which reacted with the aluminium. Where the tank wasn't resting on black rubber it was in perfect condition. Brent| 11337|11337|2006-07-15 15:42:14|tazmannusa|solid adjustable engine mounts|Hello all I Have my atomic 4 put together and test ran it thismorning in the garage and I have to say its smooth and quiet, simplicity at its finest anyway I am going to build solid engine mounts for it and I was wondering if the engine needed to be isolated electricly from the hull or can it just be solid mounted to girders as long as you dont use hull for ground ? Ive posted a few more pictues of the engine beds and mast support on the 26 in origamiboats2 Tom| 11338|11336|2006-07-16 08:00:40|woodcraftssuch|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend cruising SE Asia for many decades , pulled his aluminium > tanks and found serious corrosion holes where he had laid the tank on > black rubber. He said the black in the rubber was carbon which reacted > with the aluminium. Where the tank wasn't resting on black rubber it > was in perfect condition. > Brent > Maybe it was lack of air and/or water being trapped between the rubber and the tank that caused the corrosion. It's hard to make an aluminum tank last for decades. Sam| 11339|11336|2006-07-17 02:14:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|As Brent says it was the carbon what done it. Carbon and aluminium are at the opposite ends of the galvanic scale. There is an interesting discussion on the disastrous effect of galvanic corrosion with carbon fibre masts etc and aluminium fittings in: www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2609 Regards, Ted| 11340|11336|2006-07-17 20:16:47|seeratlas|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|I second what brent said. I made the misstake of laying a black rubber bladder in the bilge next to an aluminum tank. big misstake. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend cruising SE Asia for many decades , pulled his aluminium > tanks and found serious corrosion holes where he had laid the tank on > black rubber. He said the black in the rubber was carbon which reacted > with the aluminium. Where the tank wasn't resting on black rubber it > was in perfect condition. > Brent > | 11341|11336|2006-07-17 20:34:08|Aaron Williams|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|The aluminum need the oxygen in the air to maintain its anti corrosive qualities and the rubber prevents that from occurring. seeratlas wrote: I second what brent said. I made the misstake of laying a black rubber bladder in the bilge next to an aluminum tank. big misstake. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A friend cruising SE Asia for many decades , pulled his aluminium > tanks and found serious corrosion holes where he had laid the tank on > black rubber. He said the black in the rubber was carbon which reacted > with the aluminium. Where the tank wasn't resting on black rubber it > was in perfect condition. > Brent > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11342|11336|2006-07-17 21:09:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|That is absolutely true of stainless steel. I don't believe it is true of aluminum. Aluminum forms a skin of aluminum oxide which protects it. However that skin is porous so in the presence of water to make the electrical connection the electrolysis continues. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluninium and black rubber > The aluminum need the oxygen in the air to maintain its anti corrosive > qualities and the rubber prevents that from occurring. > > > seeratlas wrote: > I second what brent said. I made the misstake of laying a black > rubber bladder in the bilge next to an aluminum tank. > big misstake. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> A friend cruising SE Asia for many decades , pulled his aluminium >> tanks and found serious corrosion holes where he had laid the tank on >> black rubber. He said the black in the rubber was carbon which reacted >> with the aluminium. Where the tank wasn't resting on black rubber it >> was in perfect condition. >> Brent >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 11343|11226|2006-07-17 21:38:44|Carl Anderson|any unfinished hulls for sale|Does anyone know of an unfinished BS36 hull that is for sale? Looking for a bilge keel. Carl| 11344|11336|2006-07-18 18:03:25|Dick Pilz|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|At the pressure vessel shop I worked at for 20 years, using a graphite pencil for laying out patterns on aluminum tank shells was grounds for reprimand. It causes a crack to form in humid atmospheres. Any pencil marks had to be "erased" with a stainless steel wire wheel. Lumber crayon, soapstone, or center punch were the preffered marking methods. On the other hand, tractor-trailer trucks ('artics' to you Brits) usually have rubber straps (Buna-N or Neoprene) between their aluminum fuel tanks and the mounting straps/brackets. Fair hulls and fair winds, Dick --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > That is absolutely true of stainless steel. I don't believe it is true of > aluminum. Aluminum forms a skin of aluminum oxide which protects it. > However that skin is porous so in the presence of water to make the > electrical connection the electrolysis continues. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Williams" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 8:28 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluninium and black rubber > > > > The aluminum need the oxygen in the air to maintain its anti corrosive > > qualities and the rubber prevents that from occurring. > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > I second what brent said. I made the misstake of laying a black > > rubber bladder in the bilge next to an aluminum tank. > > big misstake. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> > >> A friend cruising SE Asia for many decades , pulled his aluminium > >> tanks and found serious corrosion holes where he had laid the tank on > >> black rubber. He said the black in the rubber was carbon which reacted > >> with the aluminium. Where the tank wasn't resting on black rubber it > >> was in perfect condition. > >> Brent > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > | 11345|11345|2006-07-19 05:06:37|bikerguy2507|Real biker babes and Sexy bikers looking for fun!|Real biker babes and Sexy bikers looking for fun! Check their sexy photos here http://www.geocities.com/bikerguy2500| 11346|11336|2006-07-19 17:15:37|..|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|Ted, Do not forget the sulphur that is used as a curing agent in the rubber, you can often see it on the surface of the rubber when there is too much sulphur in the mix, I have not checked the chemistry but sulphur , carbon black , lime stone used as a filler and salt water are not a good mix. Use thick polyethylene sheet between rubber bladders and metal and make sure there is no sharp grit or bits that might make a pin hole in the poly sheet . Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ As Brent says it was the carbon what done it. Carbon and aluminium are at the opposite ends of the galvanic scale. There is an interesting discussion on the disastrous effect of galvanic corrosion with carbon fibre masts etc and aluminium fittings in: www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2609 Regards, Ted --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11347|11336|2006-07-19 18:18:28|tom|Re: Aluninium and black rubber|Dang I was considering building my gas tank out of aluminum but after reading this and other strories seems like everything eats aluminum, I think I will go with 12gage steel and not worry about it and then use plastic tanks for water Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: ".." To: Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 2:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluninium and black rubber > > > > > Ted, > > Do not forget the sulphur that is used as a curing agent in the rubber, > > you can often see it on the surface of the rubber when there is too > > much sulphur in the mix, I have not checked the chemistry but sulphur , > > carbon black , lime stone used as a filler and salt water are not a good > mix. > > Use thick polyethylene sheet between rubber bladders and metal and > > make sure there is no sharp grit or bits that might make a pin hole > > in the poly sheet . > > Geoff > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > As Brent says it was the carbon what done it. Carbon and aluminium > are at the opposite ends of the galvanic scale. > > There is an interesting discussion on the disastrous effect of > galvanic corrosion with carbon fibre masts etc and aluminium fittings > in: > > www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2609 > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11348|11348|2006-07-19 19:59:03|tom|Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground|To ground to the hull or not seems to be a million dollar question, after reading through MBS forum on the subject there is a lot of opinions on it one way or the other. Trying to figure how to keep it isolated would be an amazing feat running dry exhaust and skeg cooling, personally I don't think it would make much difference provided you wire and fuse everything correctly. On a different subject I have been reading through the regs on inboard gas tanks so I can make sure I install everything legal and safe and there is one thing that makes no since to me if you mount the top of the tank higher than the carb inlet fitting you have to have an electric shut off valve that closes when the ignition switch is shut off and it be at the tank connection, this is incase you have a fuel leak it wont siphon out of tank and fill bilge with gas + if there is an engine fire it wont keep feeding it, This one makes real good since, but if the top of the tank is lower than the carb fuel inlet its not required and this is how almost all the power boats I have worked on are set up but the problem is the fuel lines run way below the top of the tank and hook to the fuel pump then back up to carb, If you have a cracked line or leaking fitting on or near the fuel pump it will siphon out of tank and fill bilge with gas. This happened to me once and we were lucky we smelled the gas and stopped it before anything blew. This makes me wonder who actually wrote the regs, a boat manufacturer wanting a way to save a couple bucks! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "tazmannusa" To: Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 12:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] solid adjustable engine mounts > Hello all > I Have my atomic 4 put together and test ran it thismorning in the > garage and I have to say its smooth and quiet, simplicity at its > finest anyway I am going to build solid engine mounts for it and I was > wondering if the engine needed to be isolated electricly from the hull > or can it just be solid mounted to girders as long as you dont use > hull for ground ? > Ive posted a few more pictues of the engine beds and mast support on > the 26 in origamiboats2 > Tom > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11349|11348|2006-07-20 06:36:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground|Tom, I thought that I had, with A/V mounts and a flexible drive coupler, electically isolated my engine until you wrote about the dry exhaust. I had missed that completely. Ah well! Does anyone have an idea of the temperature of a dry exhaust with a manifold heat exchanger just before it exits the transom? Regards, Ted| 11350|11348|2006-07-20 09:05:20|tom|Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground|Hello Ted Exhaust temp is a hard one to figure, it all depends on how hard the engine is run and for how long. The only thing I could think of that might work is the aft end of the heat exchanger be a plate that bolts to transom, then you could gasket and bushing the bolts to isolate Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 3:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground > Tom, > I thought that I had, with A/V mounts and a flexible drive coupler, > electically isolated my engine until you wrote about the dry exhaust. > I had missed that completely. Ah well! Does anyone have an idea of > the temperature of a dry exhaust with a manifold heat exchanger just > before it exits the transom? > Regards, > Ted > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11351|11348|2006-07-20 09:26:40|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground|On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 10:36:16AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Tom, > I thought that I had, with A/V mounts and a flexible drive coupler, > electically isolated my engine until you wrote about the dry exhaust. > I had missed that completely. Ah well! Does anyone have an idea of > the temperature of a dry exhaust with a manifold heat exchanger just > before it exits the transom? I've got such a system on "Ulysses", but I don't know how useful the answer will be to you; it's not an origami design, although it's steel and has a dry exhaust. I'll provide the relevant factors, and you can guesstimate from there. My exhaust pipe is wrapped in fiberglass batting (after looking through all sorts of high-tech high-temp wrapping materials, an $8 roll of foil-backed fiberglass turned out to be exactly the right solution...), and runs for ~4' between the engine and the aft engine-compartment bulkhead. It then runs to starboard for ~4 feet, aft along the hull (on the bottom) for ~6', then comes back to the centerline at the stern, at which point it exits the boat. Everywhere in the aft cabin, it runs inside a sort of a plenum box formed by the cabinetry; however, I was really unhappy with this hot pipe running so close to the wood, so I disassembled everything and paid a fellow boater who was very handy with a pair of tin snips to line all the woodwork with galvanized roofing material. I then cut a hole on my aft deck and mounted a threaded PVC fitting in it, and installed a couple of 4" PVC elbows forming an upside-down 'U' as well as a 4" engine exhaust fan (which connects to my 'key-on' circuit on the engine.) I then ducted the plenum to the fan. After running the engine at rather high RPM for a couple of hours (I run an alternator-based welder), the EGT is probably not much higher than ambient plus ~100degF. I don't have any exact measurements, but I've put my hand near the outlet when I was in the dinghy (I was curious), and that's my off-the-cuff estimate. The vent temp is about 30-50degF over ambient. To wrap this whole thing back to the original question, all I'd have to do to electrically isolate the exhaust system would be to make some Bakelite washers for where the bolts pass through the transom; the rest of the pipe is isolated by the fiberglass. On the other hand, I'm perfectly fine with the engine being grounded. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11352|11348|2006-07-20 09:39:14|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground|On Thu, Jul 20, 2006 at 06:01:46AM -0700, tom wrote: > Hello Ted > Exhaust temp is a hard one to figure, it all depends on how hard the engine > is run and for how long. > The only thing I could think of that might work is the aft end of the heat > exchanger be a plate that bolts to transom, then you could gasket and > bushing the bolts to isolate [laugh] Exactly what I just finished saying, Tom; great minds think alike. I've actually got a plate like that now: I wanted the aft end of the exhaust pipe, which had rotted out from the salt water contact (even though it's a good 18" above the waterline), to be easily replaceable. So, instead of welding the new pipe to the transom as the old one had been, I had a muffler shop make me up an elbow that fit over the old pipe, then welded that elbow through a 6"x6" plate and cut a slightly larger hole in the transom. The elbow comes in from the outside and slips onto the existing pipe, the plate gets bolted to the transom with 5200 between the two - /voila/, it's an easily serviceable/replaceable exhaust outlet from now on. I do have to give much of the credit to Gary, a welder who did most of the work while I ran off and made money to pay him with; I thought of the elbow, but couldn't quite figure out how to relieve the tension that would be produced in the rest of the pipe when it was installed. With the plate and a slightly bigger hole in the transom, the end could now slide around to the perfect position before we locked it down. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11353|11226|2006-07-20 16:48:27|brentswain38|Re: any unfinished hulls for sale|Cedrick is talking about selling Island Breeze a 36 footer which did a circumnavigation and is currently at Vunda Point in Fiji, a nice place to start a cruise. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Does anyone know of an unfinished BS36 hull that is for sale? > Looking for a bilge keel. > > > Carl > | 11354|2792|2006-07-21 13:17:40|Gary|Stuffing box|Ok... so finished a long trek motored/sailed up to Bella Bella. Stuffing box leaking too much....underway sprays flying all around prop shaft area. Tightened gd thing down and drips 5 or 6 drops a minute but shaft will not turn by hand which seems the nut is too tight. Should the shaft be hand turnable? I believe I am going to just get seals or dripless packing. I have too much water in the bilge or concerns that I am tightening down too hard on the shaft. Thanks in advance... Gary| 11355|2792|2006-07-21 13:39:50|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Stuffing box|On Fri, Jul 21, 2006 at 05:09:56PM -0000, Gary wrote: > Ok... so finished a long trek motored/sailed up to Bella Bella. > Stuffing box leaking too much....underway sprays flying all around > prop shaft area. Tightened gd thing down and drips 5 or 6 drops a > minute but shaft will not turn by hand which seems the nut is too > tight. Should the shaft be hand turnable? I believe I am going to > just get seals or dripless packing. I have too much water in the > bilge or concerns that I am tightening down too hard on the shaft. > Thanks in advance... Gary I've been a huge fan of PSS shaft seals ever since I bought a boat with one installed. I spent six of my seven years in the Caribbean aboard that boat, and always had a bone-dry bilge - *and* never had to replace packing or adjust a stuffing box (both of which require a 3-year old child with 8'-long arms and the strength of Hercules.) I also never had to worry about shaft wear or damage. That "install and forget" ability alone made it worth every penny; when I bought "Ulysses", it came with a grease-pump-fed packing system (an odd gadget with a screw-driven pump that had to be tweaked every 5 engine hours), and I replaced it with a PSS at the first major haulout. http://www.shaftseal.com/ Disclaimer: I don't work for them, and don't have any stock in the company (although maybe I should...) Just a highly satisfied customer. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11356|2792|2006-07-21 14:03:43|tom|Re: Stuffing box|Hello Gary The few packings I have worked on didnt have to be that tight for a few drips a minute could be youre packing is worn or pits in the prop shaft, I would try putting another layer or two of packing and try it again, you should be able to add more packing without having to haul the boat out. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary" To: Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing box > Ok... so finished a long trek motored/sailed up to Bella Bella. > Stuffing box leaking too much....underway sprays flying all around > prop shaft area. Tightened gd thing down and drips 5 or 6 drops a > minute but shaft will not turn by hand which seems the nut is too > tight. Should the shaft be hand turnable? I believe I am going to > just get seals or dripless packing. I have too much water in the > bilge or concerns that I am tightening down too hard on the shaft. > Thanks in advance... Gary > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11357|2792|2006-07-21 15:29:48|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing box|Drill and tap a 1/8th inch pipe tap thread into either the stern tube or the stuffing box, behind thne packing, thread in a hose connected to a grease gun and pump her full of grease.You can do this at low tide on the beach. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Ok... so finished a long trek motored/sailed up to Bella Bella. > Stuffing box leaking too much....underway sprays flying all around > prop shaft area. Tightened gd thing down and drips 5 or 6 drops a > minute but shaft will not turn by hand which seems the nut is too > tight. Should the shaft be hand turnable? I believe I am going to > just get seals or dripless packing. I have too much water in the > bilge or concerns that I am tightening down too hard on the shaft. > Thanks in advance... Gary > | 11358|11226|2006-07-21 15:37:17|brentswain38|Re: any unfinished hulls for sale|Cedrick said he was thinking about $40,000 US. She needs a new main and a bit of work, but a good boat for that price. Twin keeler. His email address is melanielauzon@... Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Cedrick is talking about selling Island Breeze a 36 footer which did a > circumnavigation and is currently at Vunda Point in Fiji, a nice place > to start a cruise. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > Does anyone know of an unfinished BS36 hull that is for sale? > > Looking for a bilge keel. > > > > > > Carl > > > | 11359|11348|2006-07-21 19:47:31|T & D Cain|Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground|Depends on engine type and power setting, but you would need a ceramic isolator if installing near the manifold --- at a guess, I would punt for 450 up to 550 deg C. at the first flange. I don’t know of a source for the ceramic part, but you can bet they exist in sleeve form at least. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2006 8:06 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: solid adjustable engine mounts and ground Tom, I thought that I had, with A/V mounts and a flexible drive coupler, electically isolated my engine until you wrote about the dry exhaust. I had missed that completely. Ah well! Does anyone have an idea of the temperature of a dry exhaust with a manifold heat exchanger just before it exits the transom? Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11360|11360|2006-07-22 21:19:34|Gary|Dry Exhaust ... (& Silas Crosby)|In a previous post Silas Crosby owner mentioned his dry exhaust system uses a Kabota muffler. Anyone else doing this and how is it done. I am asking because for the 2nd year in a row I am anchored out with a faulty exhaust water pump again waiting for a delivery to Bella Bella this time. My engine is a Yanmar 3GM 27 hp. Thanks in advance. Gary| 11361|11361|2006-07-24 12:47:17|khooper_fboats|Cheap Diesel/North Carolina|http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Thermo-king-4-four-cylinder-cyl-diesel-engine-motor_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ004QQitemZ140011231390QQrdZ1 Currently at $5.50 and no reserve on it I think this is a Kubota V-1903, would be 39 hp @ 2800 rpm Was in a reefer so probably has a two-speed governor on it| 11362|11360|2006-07-24 15:12:25|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust ... (& Silas Crosby)|I run my exhuast from the transom to a point three feet ahead of the transom , just under the cockpit seat with enough room over it to allow a good wrap of fibreglass house insulation, followed by a wrap of three inch wide muffler tape and a good smear of silicone. From there it turns downward 90 degrees , then several more turns into the engine, all wraped the same way. On the outside , the exhuast turns downward thre a 90 degree elbow with a 1/4 inc antisiphon hole , to a point about 4 inches underwater, where it turns aft thru another elbow. A rubber flap on this elbow acts a s a check valve. Underway the end of the pipe is about 8 inches or more underwater , eliminating the need for a muffler of any kind. It simply gurgles very quietly. Given the trouble I've seen from wet exhuasts it's surprising how difficult it is to talk people out of such fooolishness. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > In a previous post Silas Crosby owner mentioned his dry exhaust system > uses a Kabota muffler. Anyone else doing this and how is it done. I > am asking because for the 2nd year in a row I am anchored out with a > faulty exhaust water pump again waiting for a delivery to Bella Bella > this time. My engine is a Yanmar 3GM 27 hp. Thanks in advance. > > Gary > | 11363|11333|2006-07-24 15:15:10|brentswain38|Re: Marking thru hulls|The trouble with sea chests is the excessive amount of plumbing that you end up with inside the boat , unless the galley sink, head, and all other uses for thru hulls are extremely close together.SS bal valves on SS pipe nipples are exteremely trouble free.I've had no problem with them in over 30 years. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 08:47:01PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > After having had to search for thru hulls which needed clearing from > > the outside ,I decided to use a different colour of antifouling around > > them to make them easy to find while holding my breath. > > I met a German ironworker down in the Virgin Islands who had built a 72' > aluminium boat for himself; one of the nicest features I saw (and there > were many clever ones on that boat) was an 18"x18" sea chest. It was > just off the centerline (he had it under his main companion) and came > above the waterline, and all his saltwater intakes came off the sides of > it. If any of them got clogged, he just loosened four wingnuts and > flipped down the toggles, and the top (which was gasketed) came right > off. > > It was a case of envy at first sight. :) > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > | 11364|11364|2006-07-24 17:48:35|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: Digest Number 1607|---- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: if you store the boat fo rthe winter take the impeller out they take a set when sitting for a long time. mike| 11365|11161|2006-07-24 18:17:36|tom|Re: rust bullet|Hello Gerd Is the rust bullet thin enough to run under edges of stringers ? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] rust bullet > Yes, I KNOW sandblasting and epoxy is best.... ;-) but just to see, > I am at the moment testing rust bullet. I bought a tin and applied > to different surfaces. > So far: once cured it is _amazingly_ tough. I built a ladder for the > main hatch from some scrap t-profiles that I then painted with 2 > coats, surface uprepared dirty rust, sharp edges and all. I am all > the time climbing up and down, boots full of dirt, I drag cables and > profiles and all sorts of stuff over it, and the paint shows no use > or wear at all, even on the sharp edges. > > the finish is smooth, sort of plastic look and touch but very hard, > I also tried bending painted parts, noch crack, no peeling off > etc... I really am impressed with the stuff. > > ...maybe for inside??? > > I know this was brought up before, but does anybody have any more > recent experiences with it? > > > Gerd > http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11366|11161|2006-07-25 02:55:08|Gerd|Re: rust bullet|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Gerd > Is the rust bullet thin enough to run under edges of stringers ? Difficult to say.. The paint has a very slick, smooth feeling to it when liquid and seems to "creep" well. In any case, under the edges of stringers you will have the same problem also for epoxy etc, you will never get there with anything, but if this is nicely enclosed and sealed of airtight, couple of coats of epoxy tar over it, should be ok. Maybe you should buy a small tin and try it out, even if you don't do the boat with it, it sure is interesting stuff to have around. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 11367|11161|2006-07-25 08:42:45|tom|Re: rust bullet|Sounds like interesting stuff, I have been reading up on all I can find about it and I havnt heard anything bad about it and everyone that has used it for repairs seem to love it. Makes me kinda think if it works that good why not use it in the first place, cost vs anything else about the same. I think I will get a tin of it and play with it. I am hoping to have the 26 painted by winter but thats getting iffey, right now were having a heck of a heat wave 113 degrees yesterday and it doesnt look like it will be letting up anytime soon, Sunday I was welding a 1/4" solid rod around the cabin roof overhang and it was misurable could only take welding about 15 minuets then I was soaking wet getting shocked then set in front of cooler for an hour till dry then go at it again Fun! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: rust bullet > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Gerd >> Is the rust bullet thin enough to run under edges of stringers ? > > Difficult to say.. The paint has a very slick, smooth feeling to it > when liquid and seems to "creep" well. In any case, under the edges of > stringers you will have the same problem also for epoxy etc, you will > never get there with anything, but if this is nicely enclosed and > sealed of airtight, couple of coats of epoxy tar over it, should be ok. > > Maybe you should buy a small tin and try it out, even if you don't do > the boat with it, it sure is interesting stuff to have around. > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11368|11368|2006-07-26 18:12:31|Aaron|Average time start to finish|Question for those that have built and building boats. What has been the average time it is taking to construct and finish the BS36 and BS40 to the point of sailing.| 11369|11369|2006-07-26 19:35:03|tom|sand blasters|Hello All I am looking into buying a small sandblaster but I dont know whitch ones are better or worse any advise on what type to buy ? Harbour freight sells a small 50 lbs pressure pot type but I was told they dont work that good. I think I have enough compressor to run one 7-1/2 hp electric with 60 gal tank and 12 hp gas with 30 gal tank figure both hooked together might be good enough Thanks Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11370|11369|2006-07-26 19:46:22|Alex Christie|Re: sand blasters|I've tried small ones and they don't work too well for me. A lot of clogging and only a weak small sand stream. Maybe wasn't the ideal set-up, I don't know. If it was for one big job, you'd be far better off renting a big one plus a substantial compressor. If someone knows of an effective small blaster and compressor combination that works without constantly clogging, I'd like to know it too, as it would suit working away on sections at a time. Alex| 11371|11369|2006-07-27 07:25:46|Peter Megan Isabella|Re: sand blasters|I have made myself a PA Blaster. Rob sells the plans for like 10 bucks. It is called the pressure assit blaster, works without clogging up like other pot blasters and suction blaster do. http://www.pablaster.com/ apples Australia www.supernerd.com.au/~apalais [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11373|11373|2006-07-29 05:26:41|Michael Burton|Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show On DVD 15 Discs Limited Edition|I am engineering a method to convert unwanted Disney DVD's into cruising vessels. It's gotta be easier than sandblasting steel... sheeeesh! Brent... is there some sort of filter you can set to screen this junk out? I have all the DVD's, mail order brides and Nigerian Bank Letters that I need. Michael Burton Borealis Maritime Inc. Prince Rupert --------------------------------- Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11374|11373|2006-07-29 06:50:32|Alex Christie|Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show|There is no filter for it. I delete them as they come in and ban the authors for eternity. Some groups have a lot of spam, we are not too badly off :-) Some day soon I'd like to have a forum on the origamiboats website I am setting up, but for now Yahoo is it! Alex (moderator) On 29-Jul-06, at 2:26 AM, Michael Burton wrote: > I am engineering a method to convert unwanted Disney DVD's into > cruising vessels. It's gotta be easier than sandblasting steel... > sheeeesh! > > Brent... is there some sort of filter you can set to screen this junk > out? I have all the DVD's, mail order brides and Nigerian Bank Letters > that I need. > > Michael Burton > Borealis Maritime Inc. > Prince Rupert > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11375|11373|2006-07-29 13:55:18|jim dorey|Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show On DVD 15 Discs Limited Edition|Michael Burton wrote: > > > I am engineering a method to convert unwanted Disney DVD's into cruising > vessels. It's gotta be easier than sandblasting steel... sheeeesh! > > Brent... is there some sort of filter you can set to screen this junk > out? I have all the DVD's, mail order brides and Nigerian Bank Letters > that I need. > > Michael Burton > Borealis Maritime Inc. > Prince Rupert try mailwasher, the free version is fine, add the names to the spam filter. there's a trial version of a learning filter, since it's a trial it's best not to use the learn feature unless you can buy. you can bounce spam, though there are various good reasons not to, for instance, yahoo. when i would bounce to a yahoo address my groups would stop working, quick fix, but annoying. now that i don't strategically bounce i'm slowly getting more spam, at the end of using mailwasher i was getting less than 30 spam a day, which was hidden, now i'm getting deluged. my windows install is on a failing hard disk, so i'm using thunderbird on linux, haven't found a way to bounce with it yet that doesn't suck, and spam is getting worse. unfortunately mailwasher doesn't work if you get digest or read on site.| 11376|11373|2006-07-29 15:33:16|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show On DVD 15 Discs Limited Edition|On Sat, Jul 29, 2006 at 02:55:14PM -0300, jim dorey wrote: > > now that i don't strategically bounce i'm slowly getting more spam, at the end of using > mailwasher i was getting less than 30 spam a day, which was hidden, now i'm getting deluged. > my windows install is on a failing hard disk, so i'm using thunderbird on linux, haven't found > a way to bounce with it yet that doesn't suck, and spam is getting worse. Take a look at http://lwn.net/Articles/155194/ - good article on using SpamAssassin with Thunderbird. I've been using SA for years now, and despite having my address all over the Net, I can't remember the last time I saw a piece of spam in my inbox. I _have_ had to use 'sa-learn' to tell SA about a few false positives in the past year, but that's been a dozen messages at most. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11377|11369|2006-07-29 17:33:19|tom|Re: sand blasters|Hello Alex A friend loaned me a small sandblaster and it seems to work ok, no clogging. Its a pretty simple setup, a hopper type tank and a hose hooked at bottom to a siphon gun . Seems the trick is the rite size tip and a lot of air. I played with it for about an hour hooked to a 7 hp electric compressor rated at 9 cfm @ 125 lbs and it sure isn't big enough for over about 15 minuets of blasting. I am using #30 silica sand and it seems to me about right on the finish plus I was surprised hardly any dust. the tip that just a hair under a 1/4" worked the best the smaller one wouldn't pickup the sand and the larger one didn't have enough speed on the sand to strip off the rust and mill scale. I should be ok when I hook up the second compressor but it will be slow going either way. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sand blasters > I've tried small ones and they don't work too well for me. A lot of > clogging and only a weak small sand stream. Maybe wasn't the ideal > set-up, I don't know. If it was for one big job, you'd be far better > off renting a big one plus a substantial compressor. If someone knows > of an effective small blaster and compressor combination that works > without constantly clogging, I'd like to know it too, as it would suit > working away on sections at a time. > > Alex > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11378|11373|2006-07-29 18:43:16|Barry Gorman|Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show On DVD 15 Discs Limited Edition|Personally I believe The Question Is How To Keep The Illegitimate Sellers and Traders Off The Group In The First Place ! Individual Members Should No Have To Be Responsible For The Removal Of Trash ! ! Of Course This Is Just In My Opinion , Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: jim dorey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show On DVD 15 Discs Limited Edition Michael Burton wrote: > > > I am engineering a method to convert unwanted Disney DVD's into cruising > vessels. It's gotta be easier than sandblasting steel... sheeeesh! > > Brent... is there some sort of filter you can set to screen this junk > out? I have all the DVD's, mail order brides and Nigerian Bank Letters > that I need. > > Michael Burton > Borealis Maritime Inc. > Prince Rupert try mailwasher, the free version is fine, add the names to the spam filter. there's a trial version of a learning filter, since it's a trial it's best not to use the learn feature unless you can buy. you can bounce spam, though there are various good reasons not to, for instance, yahoo. when i would bounce to a yahoo address my groups would stop working, quick fix, but annoying. now that i don't strategically bounce i'm slowly getting more spam, at the end of using mailwasher i was getting less than 30 spam a day, which was hidden, now i'm getting deluged. my windows install is on a failing hard disk, so i'm using thunderbird on linux, haven't found a way to bounce with it yet that doesn't suck, and spam is getting worse. unfortunately mailwasher doesn't work if you get digest or read on site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11379|11379|2006-07-29 19:02:49|nicolepentz2|Drowning FirstAid Technique|Hi all, I am not a very active member, However I wanted to share this info. Now hopefully none of us will ever need it, but better to know beforehand. http://www.escape-co.com/Drowning_First_Aid.htm| 11380|11379|2006-07-30 01:31:13|yugenmist|Re: Drowning FirstAid Technique|Thankyou! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nicolepentz2" wrote: > > Hi all, > I am not a very active member, However I wanted to share this info. > Now hopefully none of us will ever need it, but better to know > beforehand. > http://www.escape-co.com/Drowning_First_Aid.htm > | 11381|11379|2006-07-30 06:23:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Drowning FirstAid Technique|Thanks Nicole, I have seen it done by a Macdonald's manager on an elderly lady who was choking on something she ate and it worked. I never thought about it for drowning although it seems more logical than laying the victim on their back performing CPR and expecting the water to come out of their lungs. Regards, Ted| 11382|11382|2006-07-30 18:51:29|waldo99inutah|opening portholes|Has anyone put opening portholes in the cabin trunk? If so what did you do. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, Carl| 11383|11383|2006-07-30 22:30:32|Aaron|winch size|What would be the correct winch size and how many would be required on the BS36| 11384|11384|2006-07-31 20:49:56|tom|zink rich primers|Hello All I finaly got ahold of someone that deals in the zink rich primers and epoxy for marine aplication here local, I didnt know sherwin wiliams delt in that stuff but after talking with there rep they make a couple versions of the zink rich primers one is a weld threw and one is not and eather one has a realy long recote time and can be primed over with epoxy coats, at least I can sandblast in sections and prime and not have to keep to any time schedual. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11385|11385|2006-08-01 13:58:53|mkriley@fuse.net|zinc rich primers|epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift mike| 11386|11386|2006-08-01 14:05:52|mkriley@fuse.net|Fwd: zinc rich primers|epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift mike| 11387|11386|2006-08-02 11:07:51|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|Hi Don't think about galvanising or zinc spraying steel parts prior to powder coating with epoxy either.Years ago a friend and I had some motorcycle frames shotblasted and epoxied.Dave decided on a belt and braces job and had his zinc sprayed after blasting.I (cheapskate) didn't and mine were ok.His bubbled badly and had to be redone. Cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 11388|11386|2006-08-02 13:11:05|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 04:04:10PM +0100, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Hi > > Don't think about galvanising or zinc spraying steel > parts prior to powder coating with epoxy either.Years > ago a friend and I had some motorcycle frames > shotblasted and epoxied.Dave decided on a belt and > braces job and had his zinc sprayed after blasting.I > (cheapskate) didn't and mine were ok.His bubbled badly > and had to be redone. GalvanizeIt.org is an excellent reference site for any questions about galvanized steel. In their listing of paints that can be used over it, they show the following entries regarding epoxies: `` Type Compatibility Comments ... Coal Tar Epoxies Sometimes Rarely used, only if parts are to be buried in soil Epoxies Sometimes If paint is specifically manufactured for use with galvanized steel Epoxy-Polyamide Yes Has superior adherence to galvanized steel Cured '' I highly recommend reading the entire page for relevant details. http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,291,335.cfm * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11389|11373|2006-08-02 19:36:31|brentswain38|Re: The Best Of The Muppet Show On DVD 15 Discs Limited Edition|Tossing sand thru a steel window sceen before using does the trick , as long as it's very dry. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Burton wrote: > > I am engineering a method to convert unwanted Disney DVD's into cruising vessels. It's gotta be easier than sandblasting steel... sheeeesh! > > Brent... is there some sort of filter you can set to screen this junk out? I have all the DVD's, mail order brides and Nigerian Bank Letters that I need. > > Michael Burton > Borealis Maritime Inc. > Prince Rupert > > > > --------------------------------- > Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11390|11383|2006-08-02 19:37:43|brentswain38|Re: winch size|Any geared winch with a better than 4 to one gear ratio will do( 4 turns of the handle to one of the drum), altho the bigger the better. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > What would be the correct winch size and how many would be required on > the BS36 > | 11391|11382|2006-08-02 19:40:07|brentswain38|Re: opening portholes|I've taken some severe knockdowns from surprise katabatics , squalls etc that would have sunk me several times if I'd had opening ports in the trunk cabin. They would have probably been open in the prevailing conditions at the time. You can get all the ventilation you need and still keep your openings safely on the centreline or near to it, where they belong. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "waldo99inutah" wrote: > > Has anyone put opening portholes in the cabin trunk? > If so what did you do. > Any information would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Carl > | 11392|11386|2006-08-02 19:45:52|brentswain38|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|My current boat has had epoxy over zinc for 22 years and 6 pacific crossings with no problem above the waterline. Zinc gives you a bit of time to recoat where it has been chipped , whereas without the primer it starts to rust immediately. Below the waterline I've had a few tiny blisters. I wouldn't bother removing zinc from pre primed plate, but wouldn't bother putting it on freshly blasted plate below the waterline. Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under epoxy. People in paint test labs tend to be oblivious to the reality of dealing with dings and scrapes over time in the real world of cruising. Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift > mike > | 11393|11393|2006-08-03 12:35:11|seeratlas|Theoretically speaking.....|Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design so forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching waaaaayyy out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. so......Here's the question, Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design paper. To start, here's where I'm coming from. I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the time semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would get out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... I've also sailed center cockpit boats where I pretty much stayed high and dry, in fact on my own boat with a purposefully heavy built cockpit cover (to my design to fit that boat) I spent several days in a t-shirt waaaaay off the NorthWest coast in a much worse storm.... the motion was violent, but at least relatively dry. Worked, but wasn't aesthetically pleasing..i.e. looked like hell for a sailboat LOL. I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially a flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time in the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later years after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this feature as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both bluewater AND european river/canal ability. Soooo,,, now I'm working on my schooner design but thinking of a very small highly protected cockpit sitting just abaft the main hatch into the main cabin, with a flush deck thereafter all the way to the stern. In this design the 'cockpit' portion below the flush deck would amount to something like a large footwell. Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious weather it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. Since most aft cockpits sit too low to effectively see over the top of a reasonable pilot house, I'm thinking of an outside steering station essentially right up against it, to the port side of the main mast (which in my design is anchored into the cockpit floor and the pilothouse bulkhead), with a seat high enough so that I can see over the top of the pilothouse (thru a small windscreen and under a sunshade, and some stainless railing for security) I'm wondering just how much more 'cockpit' I really need? I know a lot of boats destined for the tropics boast of std 6'6 1/2 or 7' cockpits so that one can "sleep outside under the stars..."...er uh...in my experience i'd just as soon be on an open deck under a bug net:) I guess the other excuse is for seating all the people you'll be entertaining....well...I don't anticipate running a tour boat...and second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush deck by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck lockers etc. could be bolted? Couldn't a stainless rail system be constructed that could have wind screens, i.e. rectangular pieces of strong sun resistant fabric tied solidly to the top of the rails and weakly to the bottoms so as to block the wind but allow an over the deck breaker to simply break the lower fastenings and push thru the screens without carrying the whole shebang overboard. It seems to me that such a design would end up with a lot more stowage space below aft, even enough for a comfy aft cabin. I suspect it would weigh less also in that all the steel involved in making the cockpit 'box' etc. would be eliminated. The railing would result in more windage but how much so? I wouldn't think pipe of sufficient strength would be that big of deal. I would no longer need to worry about cockpit drains, clogging, leaking below decks or worrying about anything shifting below knocking one loose...YAAAAAAAAYYYY. If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted down or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the dangers of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... I guess the remaining issue is what would it all look like aesthetically? I'm going to have to pull out the graphics programs and fool around a bit with that. Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in everyone's comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views on from 'all angles' :) additional data. 1. The boat is designed to be steered and for the most part operated from inside the extended pilothouse during weather. All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside the main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to do this once)and i think that with either a light or dark hull, the stainless rails, pilothouse trim (for abrasion protection etc.) will make for a very presentable yacht, not to mention substantially lower the maintenance required. Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) seer| 11394|11393|2006-08-03 13:50:26|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 04:33:46PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic > design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, > What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design so > forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching waaaaayyy > out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. > so......Here's the question, > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? It's a good question - and, as you note, a lot more complex than can just be answered in a sentence or two. Perhaps looking at different ideas like the ones you mentioned, and seeing how they integrate with the boat you're building is the best option... and perhaps sending Brent some consulting fees to check it all out once you've settled on a design might not be a bad idea either. :) > I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design paper. > To start, here's where I'm coming from. > > I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the time > semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would get > out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to > greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... I've got 3" 'cross-fed' drains in Ulysses' cockpit; when I took a couple of big breakers in a storm in the Gulf Stream, they drained out in zip time - and it's a *big* cockpit (a quick bit of math at that time told me that I'd taken on a hair over 3.5 tons of water.) On the other hand, Ulysses is a fat-assed Dutch design - http://okopnik.freeshell.org/photoj-winter0203/ulysses_painted.jpg that's got A LOT of flotation in her big, square stern; I didn't feel any difference in how the boat handled with all that water on board, but that may not be true of other designs. > I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially a > flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time in > the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later years > after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this feature > as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his > career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and > Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both > bluewater AND european river/canal ability. I met a fellow in Montauk, New York - and later in Boqueron, Puerto Rico - who had made his money by essentially building a fleet of charter fishing boats. When he retired, he co-designed a sailboat with a naval architect friend of his (mind you, this design included a several-ton fish hold and an old but working U-boat paper-chart sonar that could ping a mile down with high precision :-) and went sailing. His "cockpit" was a pilothouse that sat flat on the deck, with a steering station off to starboard and a water-tight door to port that led below; I've seen similar things on some traditional powerboat designs, e.g. West Coast commercial fishing boats. There were a couple of benches made out of perf aluminium just aft of the pilothouse. I _really_ admired that design, but it would require at least a 40+-footer to execute it well and in reasonable proportion. > Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious weather > it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless > necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. [Nod] Ulysses has a doghouse (I would have preferred a pilothouse, and am in fact considering a re-design right now.) I've been in several storms during my sailing career, and being able to just tuck in out of the weather makes such a huge difference that I'll never sail without something similar again. It literally is the difference between being beaten down to your stumps by the end of every watch versus being relatively comfortable even in the middle of a storm - unless, as you say, you've got to go out on deck. Even then, you always get to come back to your snug little duty station after wrestling with a storm jib or whatever. > ...and > second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush deck > by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which > stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck > lockers etc. could be bolted? Oh, what a brilliant idea! I think I'll be implementing that one in a few places aboard Ulysses in the future. > If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as > any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. > Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted down > or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the dangers > of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... Something to consider: when I'm down in Ulysses' cockpit, even a *really* big pooping sea can't wash me out (unless it turns the entire boat upside down and gives it a good shake.) Having nothing around you to prevent that from happening means thinking a bit differently about securing yourself and/or crew members while in the cockpit; not that this is a big deal, but it _is_ an important consideration that would be different otherwise. > Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in everyone's > comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views on > from 'all angles' :) Well, I'm just a barely-out-of-school welder and a (very) amateur shipfitter (sure wish I could get a bit more training in that latter...), so I don't know that I can come up with any brilliant ideas - but I've been noodling on this kind of thing for a while myself, for both initial designs (if I ever do build a boat) and redesigns (what I can do on Ulysses.) I'm still considering whether to start building one of Brent's boats... heck, if there was somebody in my area who was building one, I'd volunteer to help'em just to see what it takes. > All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside the > main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have > substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external > piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to do > this once) Be sure to avoid cheap Chinese stainless pipe. I speak from experience. :\ I'm looking at having to replace pretty much all the stainless railing that was originally installed on Ulysses; the stuff is cracking all over, and the cracks aren't weldable - it's like trying to weld to rust. > Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) Hopefully, my musings will be of some help to you. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11395|11393|2006-08-03 13:50:39|legacy10548|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|I have seen some very nice center cockpit/aft cabin sailing vessels. But, most of them were in the 50' plus range. Wouldn't the center cockpit and flush deck aft raise the center of gravity requiring more ballast? Also I would imagine that the aft cabin, fully equipped would move a lot of weight to the stern and the center cockpit would require more beam. Maybe not for a small a footwell type. Am I correct? I'd like to see some pictures. Ed --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic > design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, > What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design so > forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching waaaaayyy > out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. > so......Here's the question, > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design paper. > To start, here's where I'm coming from. > > I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the time > semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would get > out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to > greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... > > I've also sailed center cockpit boats where I pretty much stayed high > and dry, in fact on my own boat with a purposefully heavy built > cockpit cover (to my design to fit that boat) I spent several days in > a t-shirt waaaaay off the NorthWest coast in a much worse storm.... > the motion was violent, but at least relatively dry. Worked, but > wasn't aesthetically pleasing..i.e. looked like hell for a sailboat LOL. > > I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially a > flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time in > the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later years > after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this feature > as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his > career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and > Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both > bluewater AND european river/canal ability. > > Soooo,,, now I'm working on my schooner design but thinking of a very > small highly protected cockpit sitting just abaft the main hatch into > the main cabin, with a flush deck thereafter all the way to the stern. > In this design the 'cockpit' portion below the flush deck would amount > to something like a large footwell. > > Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious weather > it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless > necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. Since > most aft cockpits sit too low to effectively see over the top of a > reasonable pilot house, I'm thinking of an outside steering station > essentially right up against it, to the port side of the main mast > (which in my design is anchored into the cockpit floor and the > pilothouse bulkhead), with a seat high enough so that I can see over > the top of the pilothouse (thru a small windscreen and under a > sunshade, and some stainless railing for security) I'm wondering just > how much more 'cockpit' I really need? I know a lot of boats > destined for the tropics boast of std 6'6 1/2 or 7' cockpits so that > one can "sleep outside under the stars..."...er uh...in my experience > i'd just as soon be on an open deck under a bug net:) I guess the > other excuse is for seating all the people you'll be > entertaining....well...I don't anticipate running a tour boat...and > second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush deck > by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which > stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck > lockers etc. could be bolted? Couldn't a stainless rail system be > constructed that could have wind screens, i.e. rectangular pieces of > strong sun resistant fabric tied solidly to the top of the rails and > weakly to the bottoms so as to block the wind but allow an over the > deck breaker to simply break the lower fastenings and push thru the > screens without carrying the whole shebang overboard. > > It seems to me that such a design would end up with a lot more stowage > space below aft, even enough for a comfy aft cabin. I suspect it > would weigh less also in that all the steel involved in making the > cockpit 'box' etc. would be eliminated. The railing would result in > more windage but how much so? I wouldn't think pipe of sufficient > strength would be that big of deal. I would no longer need to worry > about cockpit drains, clogging, leaking below decks or worrying about > anything shifting below knocking one loose...YAAAAAAAAYYYY. > > If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as > any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. > Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted down > or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the dangers > of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... > > I guess the remaining issue is what would it all look like > aesthetically? I'm going to have to pull out the graphics programs > and fool around a bit with that. > > Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in everyone's > comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views on > from 'all angles' :) > > additional data. 1. The boat is designed to be steered and for the > most part operated from inside the extended pilothouse during weather. > All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside the > main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have > substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external > piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to do > this once)and i think that with either a light or dark hull, the > stainless rails, pilothouse trim (for abrasion protection etc.) will > make for a very presentable yacht, not to mention substantially lower > the maintenance required. > > Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) > > seer > | 11396|11393|2006-08-03 13:56:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|Hi Seer, I haven't put in cockpit yet, although I have it bent into a trough. I have left it out to make it easier to put in the stern tube, engine and pipework in. I have thought about having a flush deck, but have not made my mind up. If one is feeling a bit sick then lying in the cockpit might be better than in the pilot house or rolling about the deck, but I quite like the idea of not having a cockpit. We intend putting fold down seats on the quarter rails a bit like on some Legend sailboats anyway. Some of Tom Colvin's designs, such as the famous Gazelle do not have cockpits. Regards, Ted| 11397|11393|2006-08-03 20:11:40|seeratlas|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|Ed, My off the cuff guestimation is that the slightly higher rear deck would be more than offset by all the steel involved in making a cockpit well. Essentially you'd be raising the cockpit floor to the deck and eliminating all the other steel. Now the issue of what you do with the added interior space is another matter entirely and I agree you'd have to be darned careful in what you do. Since my design is a diesel electric with the generators placed farther forward, weight in the stern is not a major problem, in fact the electric drive motors and shaft are currently planned under a rear centerline bunk. (they are exceedingly quiet and turn slowly). For my design I anticipate a slightly wider stern than what Brent favors on his 36/40. It's been my experience that a narrow stern is very fast where a counter is involved such that as the boat leans over in a stout breeze, waterline is increased and 'away she goes....' the slimness of the buttocks keeping the ship from tending to slew off . Some of the big sterned boats you see on the market are a real pita to steer when heeled over hard as they tend to round up excessively when the effective profile prevented to the water at heel pretty much levers the bow into the wind. Such ships will really wear you out when traveling any distance as they slew around all over the place and require a hellova lot of steering effort. I'd like a bit more than Brent's 36 but far less than the current almost wedge shaped fad of the moment so I'll have a bit more beam a bit farther back to support the stern. As for this 'center cockpit' remember, what I'm postulating at the moment is almost a seat with a footwell, located on the port side as close to the centerline mounted mainmast as is feasible. I'm thinking I'm as safe or safer with a retaining ring of STRONG stainless railing around me as I would be sitting down in a hole. Picture something more like the retaining rails often setup around the mast on a foredeck so that the hand there has something to lean on, hold onto, tie onto etc. during a sailchange in weather, except rising almost to an armpit(seated armpit that is :) high cage around the helmsman seat. With a gimbaled or static flatened 'u" shaped seat, it could be both a secure and dry seat with excellent visibility fore and aft. With the heavy fabric 'screens' tied in it could be quite cozy and yet not unduly contribute to windage or weight. I have also seen some rather nice foldup rail seats on some million dollar plus yachts that could easily be engineered onto a flush deck mounting system using Brent's embedded nut technique. (no puns now) LOL. As for pictures, I'm working those up in my mind now :) heheh more to follow. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "legacy10548" wrote: > > > I have seen some very nice center cockpit/aft cabin sailing vessels. > But, most of them were in the 50' plus range. Wouldn't the center > cockpit and flush deck aft raise the center of gravity requiring more > ballast? Also I would imagine that the aft cabin, fully equipped > would move a lot of weight to the stern and the center cockpit would > require more beam. Maybe not for a small a footwell type. Am I > correct? I'd like to see some pictures. > > Ed > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic > > design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, > > What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design > so > > forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching > waaaaayyy > > out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. > > so......Here's the question, > > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > > > I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design > paper. > > To start, here's where I'm coming from. > > > > I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the > time > > semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would > get > > out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to > > greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... > > > > I've also sailed center cockpit boats where I pretty much stayed > high > > and dry, in fact on my own boat with a purposefully heavy built > > cockpit cover (to my design to fit that boat) I spent several days > in > > a t-shirt waaaaay off the NorthWest coast in a much worse storm.... > > the motion was violent, but at least relatively dry. Worked, but > > wasn't aesthetically pleasing..i.e. looked like hell for a sailboat > LOL. > > > > I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially > a > > flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time > in > > the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later > years > > after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this > feature > > as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his > > career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and > > Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both > > bluewater AND european river/canal ability. > > > > Soooo,,, now I'm working on my schooner design but thinking of a > very > > small highly protected cockpit sitting just abaft the main hatch > into > > the main cabin, with a flush deck thereafter all the way to the > stern. > > In this design the 'cockpit' portion below the flush deck would > amount > > to something like a large footwell. > > > > Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious > weather > > it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless > > necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. Since > > most aft cockpits sit too low to effectively see over the top of a > > reasonable pilot house, I'm thinking of an outside steering station > > essentially right up against it, to the port side of the main mast > > (which in my design is anchored into the cockpit floor and the > > pilothouse bulkhead), with a seat high enough so that I can see over > > the top of the pilothouse (thru a small windscreen and under a > > sunshade, and some stainless railing for security) I'm wondering > just > > how much more 'cockpit' I really need? I know a lot of boats > > destined for the tropics boast of std 6'6 1/2 or 7' cockpits so that > > one can "sleep outside under the stars..."...er uh...in my > experience > > i'd just as soon be on an open deck under a bug net:) I guess the > > other excuse is for seating all the people you'll be > > entertaining....well...I don't anticipate running a tour boat...and > > second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush > deck > > by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which > > stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck > > lockers etc. could be bolted? Couldn't a stainless rail system be > > constructed that could have wind screens, i.e. rectangular pieces of > > strong sun resistant fabric tied solidly to the top of the rails and > > weakly to the bottoms so as to block the wind but allow an over the > > deck breaker to simply break the lower fastenings and push thru the > > screens without carrying the whole shebang overboard. > > > > It seems to me that such a design would end up with a lot more > stowage > > space below aft, even enough for a comfy aft cabin. I suspect it > > would weigh less also in that all the steel involved in making the > > cockpit 'box' etc. would be eliminated. The railing would result in > > more windage but how much so? I wouldn't think pipe of sufficient > > strength would be that big of deal. I would no longer need to worry > > about cockpit drains, clogging, leaking below decks or worrying > about > > anything shifting below knocking one loose...YAAAAAAAAYYYY. > > > > If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as > > any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. > > Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted > down > > or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the > dangers > > of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... > > > > I guess the remaining issue is what would it all look like > > aesthetically? I'm going to have to pull out the graphics programs > > and fool around a bit with that. > > > > Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in > everyone's > > comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views > on > > from 'all angles' :) > > > > additional data. 1. The boat is designed to be steered and for the > > most part operated from inside the extended pilothouse during > weather. > > All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside > the > > main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have > > substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external > > piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to > do > > this once)and i think that with either a light or dark hull, the > > stainless rails, pilothouse trim (for abrasion protection etc.) will > > make for a very presentable yacht, not to mention substantially > lower > > the maintenance required. > > > > Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) > > > > seer > > > | 11398|11393|2006-08-03 21:21:04|peter_d_wiley|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|Congratulations. You've just recapitulated Tom Colvin's objections to cockpits and why he never designs for them. Look at GAZELLE. Stern cabin under a flush deck. There have been over 700 of these built so far. I live in a fairly robust climate zone myself, so agree with Brent WRT the high desirability of a pilot house to keep out of the weather. I also agree with Tom WRT the waste of space etc of a cockpit. ATM I'm building my barn/workshop, after which I'm starting on a steel boat. I have no plans to have a cockpit in mine. If time proves me wrong, I expect adding one will be relatively simple. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic > design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, > What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design so > forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching waaaaayyy > out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. > so......Here's the question, > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design paper. > To start, here's where I'm coming from. > > I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the time > semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would get > out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to > greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... > > I've also sailed center cockpit boats where I pretty much stayed high > and dry, in fact on my own boat with a purposefully heavy built > cockpit cover (to my design to fit that boat) I spent several days in > a t-shirt waaaaay off the NorthWest coast in a much worse storm.... > the motion was violent, but at least relatively dry. Worked, but > wasn't aesthetically pleasing..i.e. looked like hell for a sailboat LOL. > > I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially a > flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time in > the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later years > after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this feature > as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his > career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and > Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both > bluewater AND european river/canal ability. > > Soooo,,, now I'm working on my schooner design but thinking of a very > small highly protected cockpit sitting just abaft the main hatch into > the main cabin, with a flush deck thereafter all the way to the stern. > In this design the 'cockpit' portion below the flush deck would amount > to something like a large footwell. > > Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious weather > it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless > necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. Since > most aft cockpits sit too low to effectively see over the top of a > reasonable pilot house, I'm thinking of an outside steering station > essentially right up against it, to the port side of the main mast > (which in my design is anchored into the cockpit floor and the > pilothouse bulkhead), with a seat high enough so that I can see over > the top of the pilothouse (thru a small windscreen and under a > sunshade, and some stainless railing for security) I'm wondering just > how much more 'cockpit' I really need? I know a lot of boats > destined for the tropics boast of std 6'6 1/2 or 7' cockpits so that > one can "sleep outside under the stars..."...er uh...in my experience > i'd just as soon be on an open deck under a bug net:) I guess the > other excuse is for seating all the people you'll be > entertaining....well...I don't anticipate running a tour boat...and > second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush deck > by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which > stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck > lockers etc. could be bolted? Couldn't a stainless rail system be > constructed that could have wind screens, i.e. rectangular pieces of > strong sun resistant fabric tied solidly to the top of the rails and > weakly to the bottoms so as to block the wind but allow an over the > deck breaker to simply break the lower fastenings and push thru the > screens without carrying the whole shebang overboard. > > It seems to me that such a design would end up with a lot more stowage > space below aft, even enough for a comfy aft cabin. I suspect it > would weigh less also in that all the steel involved in making the > cockpit 'box' etc. would be eliminated. The railing would result in > more windage but how much so? I wouldn't think pipe of sufficient > strength would be that big of deal. I would no longer need to worry > about cockpit drains, clogging, leaking below decks or worrying about > anything shifting below knocking one loose...YAAAAAAAAYYYY. > > If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as > any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. > Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted down > or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the dangers > of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... > > I guess the remaining issue is what would it all look like > aesthetically? I'm going to have to pull out the graphics programs > and fool around a bit with that. > > Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in everyone's > comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views on > from 'all angles' :) > > additional data. 1. The boat is designed to be steered and for the > most part operated from inside the extended pilothouse during weather. > All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside the > main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have > substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external > piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to do > this once)and i think that with either a light or dark hull, the > stainless rails, pilothouse trim (for abrasion protection etc.) will > make for a very presentable yacht, not to mention substantially lower > the maintenance required. > > Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) > > seer > | 11399|11393|2006-08-04 03:55:49|jim dorey|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|seeratlas wrote: > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? bout the size of a tank cockpit. hole in the cabin roof that you can stand in, kayak skirt cinched tight round your neck(what kinda weenie needs oxygen anyway?) so you can sit down, all controls inside within easy reach, showing through a tiny window. i don't know if i'm joking or not, so don't take me seriously.| 11400|11400|2006-08-04 04:07:04|jefff0113|wanna more friends to communicate?|wanna more friends to communicate? HI, I am cady, wanna to be friends with you . if you want to know me more, please visit my personal page--- -------- http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/ I'll responde you soon if you like to write to me!| 11401|11393|2006-08-04 05:12:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > seeratlas wrote: > > > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > bout the size of a tank cockpit. hole in the cabin roof that you can stand in, kayak skirt > cinched tight round your neck(what kinda weenie needs oxygen anyway?) so you can sit down, all > controls inside within easy reach, showing through a tiny window. i don't know if i'm joking > or not, so don't take me seriously. > Jim, Something similar to what you describe is described in "Practical Junk Rig" by Blondie Hasler and Jock McLeod. Blondie Hasler fitted a circular hatch on the cabin roof of his transatlantic solo race boat "Jester" pilot with a revolvable pram hood on it so that he could be protected from the elements while keeping watch whatever the wind direction. Al his sail controls were in reach. The idea is that one can sail in ones carpet slippers. Jock had the sail control sheets bought into his pilot house with the pram hood on top for watch keeping. The book is featured in Yahoo groups junk rig forum. Regards, Ted| 11402|11386|2006-08-04 05:25:40|Alfredo Nannetti|BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|I think that this problem you are talking about it's something to be discuss more. I would like to say something abuot that and ask some questions. After the experience of sunblasting boats after their construction, and after the experience of using preprimed steel, there is no point, in my opinion, to get back to sunblasting. You finally avoid a dirty and expensive work, but most of all you don't have the "big" problem of the "big" amount of dust caused by this proces. Wich should be considered by any amatour or professional boat builder. Here in Italy, most of the priprimed steel is treated with zinc or epoxy-zinc. Its a kind of paint that can be covered with any other paint. If evrithing is done in the rigyt way (the project of the boat, the costruction methods, and the treatment at the end of construction) the boat will be very well protected for ever (or nearly). I totally agree with Brent when he says: "Zinc gives you a bit of time to recoat where it has been chipped , whereas without the primer it starts to rust immediately" and "Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under epoxy" Yes, I have the same direct experience, and that is good even for all the interiors.... That 's seems to be the solutions of the problem...but: BLISTERING OUTSIDE, BELOW THA WATER LINE This is a problem that come to my eyes many time and some time in a very bad way. I had this problem even on my personal boat (only below the water line) and it was so bed that I had to remove the paint (I had zinc below epox) with sunblasting. I did the same treatment on a twin boat at the same time. Even this boat had the same problem. After sunblusting I put only epoxy on the plates of both boats. Result: after four years my boat is perfect, the twin had again the same problem just after one year. What happened is a mistery to me. The only difference between the treatment was that my boat was hand painted while the other was spray painted just in the first hand. After reading the "Brents book" I understood that this problem could be caused even if you put too much thinnerin the epoxy paint or even if you don't let it evaporet between one hand and the other. I tought that maybe "that" was the problem about the sprayng process on the twin boat. But, of course, I'm not sure. That is just my personal experience. But we have to say that there are many boats with this problem. Many. I do belive in using steel for boats. There are too many advantages and the matter of corrosion is not a matter, now days. Blistering below the water line could be the "weak" point of this material. So, it would be very useful to solve this problem drastically. Does any body know how to avoid this problem seriously? What is the real problem? The zinc? The thinner? What else? Alfredo (Italy) > My current boat has had epoxy over zinc for 22 years and 6 pacific > crossings with no problem above the waterline. Zinc gives you a bit of > time to recoat where it has been chipped , whereas without the primer > it starts to rust immediately. Below the waterline I've had a few tiny > blisters. I wouldn't bother removing zinc from pre primed plate, but > wouldn't bother putting it on freshly blasted plate below the > waterline. Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under > epoxy. > People in paint test labs tend to be oblivious to the reality of > dealing with dings and scrapes over time in the real world of > cruising. Brent. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of > the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift > > mike | 11403|11386|2006-08-04 11:21:30|khooper_fboats|Re: BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|> After reading the "Brents book" I understood that > this problem could be caused even if you put too > much thinnerin the epoxy paint or even if you don't > let it evaporet between one hand and the other. Maybe that's where the problem lies. You cannot add any volatile solvent to epoxy and expect it to be impermeable after it's cured. Even 5% by weight of solvent will leave you with a coating that lets water through (it also harms the strength of the coating substantially).| 11404|11386|2006-08-04 12:31:19|steve rankin|Re: BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|Alfredo Nannetti wrote: > I think that this problem you are talking about it's something to be > discuss more. > > I would like to say something abuot that and ask some questions. > > After the experience of sunblasting boats after their construction, > and after the experience of using preprimed steel, there is no point, > in my opinion, to get back to sunblasting. > > You finally avoid a dirty and expensive work, but most of all you > don't have the "big" problem of the "big" amount of dust caused by > this proces. Wich should be considered by any amatour or professional > boat builder. > > Here in Italy, most of the priprimed steel is treated with zinc or > epoxy-zinc. Its a kind of paint that can be covered with any other > paint. > > If evrithing is done in the rigyt way (the project of the boat, the > costruction methods, and the treatment at the end of construction) > the boat will be very well protected for ever (or nearly). > > I totally agree with Brent when he says: > > "Zinc gives you a bit of time to recoat where it has been chipped , > whereas without the primer it starts to rust immediately" > and > "Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under > epoxy" > > Yes, I have the same direct experience, and that is good even for all > the interiors.... > > That 's seems to be the solutions of the problem...but: > > BLISTERING OUTSIDE, BELOW THA WATER LINE > > This is a problem that come to my eyes many time and some time in a > very bad way. I had this problem even on my personal boat (only below > the water line) and it was so bed that I had to remove the paint (I > had zinc below epox) with sunblasting. > I did the same treatment on a twin boat at the same time. Even this > boat had the same problem. > After sunblusting I put only epoxy on the plates of both boats. > > Result: after four years my boat is perfect, the twin had again the > same problem just after one year. What happened is a mistery to me. > The only difference between the treatment was that my boat was hand > painted while the other was spray painted just in the first hand. > > After reading the "Brents book" I understood that this problem could > be caused even if you put too much thinnerin the epoxy paint or even > if you don't let it evaporet between one hand and the other. > > I tought that maybe "that" was the problem about the sprayng process > on the twin boat. > But, of course, I'm not sure. > > That is just my personal experience. But we have to say that there > are many boats with this problem. Many. > > I do belive in using steel for boats. There are too many advantages > and the matter of corrosion is not a matter, now days. > Blistering below the water line could be the "weak" point of this > material. So, it would be very useful to solve this problem > drastically. > Does any body know how to avoid this problem seriously? > What is the real problem? The zinc? The thinner? What else? > > Alfredo (Italy) > > > My current boat has had epoxy over zinc for 22 years and 6 pacific > > crossings with no problem above the waterline. Zinc gives you a bit of > > time to recoat where it has been chipped , whereas without the primer > > it starts to rust immediately. Below the waterline I've had a few tiny > > blisters. I wouldn't bother removing zinc from pre primed plate, but > > wouldn't bother putting it on freshly blasted plate below the > > waterline. Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under > > epoxy. > > People in paint test labs tend to be oblivious to the reality of > > dealing with dings and scrapes over time in the real world of > > cruising. Brent. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of > > the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift > > > mike > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 8/2/2006 > > When I was getting ready to paint my hull in 1992, I spoke to the Hempel tech about the issue of blistering. He said it was a result of tiny pinholes occuring from dust motes and to go around carefully after spraying and fill them with a tiny brush. I did this and after 14 years still have no blisters. I painted over flame sprayed zinc. Steve| 11405|11386|2006-08-04 17:02:24|brentswain38|Re: BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|Multiple coats should solve the probelem of of pinholes . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, steve rankin wrote: > > Alfredo Nannetti wrote: > > > I think that this problem you are talking about it's something to be > > discuss more. > > > > I would like to say something abuot that and ask some questions. > > > > After the experience of sunblasting boats after their construction, > > and after the experience of using preprimed steel, there is no point, > > in my opinion, to get back to sunblasting. > > > > You finally avoid a dirty and expensive work, but most of all you > > don't have the "big" problem of the "big" amount of dust caused by > > this proces. Wich should be considered by any amatour or professional > > boat builder. > > > > Here in Italy, most of the priprimed steel is treated with zinc or > > epoxy-zinc. Its a kind of paint that can be covered with any other > > paint. > > > > If evrithing is done in the rigyt way (the project of the boat, the > > costruction methods, and the treatment at the end of construction) > > the boat will be very well protected for ever (or nearly). > > > > I totally agree with Brent when he says: > > > > "Zinc gives you a bit of time to recoat where it has been chipped , > > whereas without the primer it starts to rust immediately" > > and > > "Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under > > epoxy" > > > > Yes, I have the same direct experience, and that is good even for all > > the interiors.... > > > > That 's seems to be the solutions of the problem...but: > > > > BLISTERING OUTSIDE, BELOW THA WATER LINE > > > > This is a problem that come to my eyes many time and some time in a > > very bad way. I had this problem even on my personal boat (only below > > the water line) and it was so bed that I had to remove the paint (I > > had zinc below epox) with sunblasting. > > I did the same treatment on a twin boat at the same time. Even this > > boat had the same problem. > > After sunblusting I put only epoxy on the plates of both boats. > > > > Result: after four years my boat is perfect, the twin had again the > > same problem just after one year. What happened is a mistery to me. > > The only difference between the treatment was that my boat was hand > > painted while the other was spray painted just in the first hand. > > > > After reading the "Brents book" I understood that this problem could > > be caused even if you put too much thinnerin the epoxy paint or even > > if you don't let it evaporet between one hand and the other. > > > > I tought that maybe "that" was the problem about the sprayng process > > on the twin boat. > > But, of course, I'm not sure. > > > > That is just my personal experience. But we have to say that there > > are many boats with this problem. Many. > > > > I do belive in using steel for boats. There are too many advantages > > and the matter of corrosion is not a matter, now days. > > Blistering below the water line could be the "weak" point of this > > material. So, it would be very useful to solve this problem > > drastically. > > Does any body know how to avoid this problem seriously? > > What is the real problem? The zinc? The thinner? What else? > > > > Alfredo (Italy) > > > > > My current boat has had epoxy over zinc for 22 years and 6 pacific > > > crossings with no problem above the waterline. Zinc gives you a bit of > > > time to recoat where it has been chipped , whereas without the primer > > > it starts to rust immediately. Below the waterline I've had a few tiny > > > blisters. I wouldn't bother removing zinc from pre primed plate, but > > > wouldn't bother putting it on freshly blasted plate below the > > > waterline. Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under > > > epoxy. > > > People in paint test labs tend to be oblivious to the reality of > > > dealing with dings and scrapes over time in the real world of > > > cruising. Brent. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , wrote: > > > > > > epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of > > > the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift > > > > mike > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 8/2/2006 > > > > > When I was getting ready to paint my hull in 1992, I spoke to the Hempel > tech about the issue of blistering. He said it was a result of tiny > pinholes occuring from dust motes and to go around carefully after > spraying and fill them with a tiny brush. I did this and after 14 years > still have no blisters. I painted over flame sprayed zinc. > > Steve > | 11406|11386|2006-08-04 20:20:27|steve rankin|Re: BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|brentswain38 wrote: > Multiple coats should solve the probelem of of pinholes . > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , steve rankin wrote: > > > > Alfredo Nannetti wrote: > > > > > I think that this problem you are talking about it's something to > be > > > discuss more. > > > > > > I would like to say something abuot that and ask some questions. > > > > > > After the experience of sunblasting boats after their > construction, > > > and after the experience of using preprimed steel, there is no > point, > > > in my opinion, to get back to sunblasting. > > > > > > You finally avoid a dirty and expensive work, but most of all you > > > don't have the "big" problem of the "big" amount of dust caused by > > > this proces. Wich should be considered by any amatour or > professional > > > boat builder. > > > > > > Here in Italy, most of the priprimed steel is treated with zinc or > > > epoxy-zinc. Its a kind of paint that can be covered with any other > > > paint. > > > > > > If evrithing is done in the rigyt way (the project of the boat, > the > > > costruction methods, and the treatment at the end of construction) > > > the boat will be very well protected for ever (or nearly). > > > > > > I totally agree with Brent when he says: > > > > > > "Zinc gives you a bit of time to recoat where it has been > chipped , > > > whereas without the primer it starts to rust immediately" > > > and > > > "Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc primer under > > > epoxy" > > > > > > Yes, I have the same direct experience, and that is good even for > all > > > the interiors.... > > > > > > That 's seems to be the solutions of the problem...but: > > > > > > BLISTERING OUTSIDE, BELOW THA WATER LINE > > > > > > This is a problem that come to my eyes many time and some time in > a > > > very bad way. I had this problem even on my personal boat (only > below > > > the water line) and it was so bed that I had to remove the paint > (I > > > had zinc below epox) with sunblasting. > > > I did the same treatment on a twin boat at the same time. Even > this > > > boat had the same problem. > > > After sunblusting I put only epoxy on the plates of both boats. > > > > > > Result: after four years my boat is perfect, the twin had again > the > > > same problem just after one year. What happened is a mistery to > me. > > > The only difference between the treatment was that my boat was > hand > > > painted while the other was spray painted just in the first hand. > > > > > > After reading the "Brents book" I understood that this problem > could > > > be caused even if you put too much thinnerin the epoxy paint or > even > > > if you don't let it evaporet between one hand and the other. > > > > > > I tought that maybe "that" was the problem about the sprayng > process > > > on the twin boat. > > > But, of course, I'm not sure. > > > > > > That is just my personal experience. But we have to say that there > > > are many boats with this problem. Many. > > > > > > I do belive in using steel for boats. There are too many > advantages > > > and the matter of corrosion is not a matter, now days. > > > Blistering below the water line could be the "weak" point of this > > > material. So, it would be very useful to solve this problem > > > drastically. > > > Does any body know how to avoid this problem seriously? > > > What is the real problem? The zinc? The thinner? What else? > > > > > > Alfredo (Italy) > > > > > > > My current boat has had epoxy over zinc for 22 years and 6 > pacific > > > > crossings with no problem above the waterline. Zinc gives you a > bit of > > > > time to recoat where it has been chipped , whereas without the > primer > > > > it starts to rust immediately. Below the waterline I've had a > few tiny > > > > blisters. I wouldn't bother removing zinc from pre primed > plate, but > > > > wouldn't bother putting it on freshly blasted plate below the > > > > waterline. Above the waterline I wouldn't go without zinc > primer under > > > > epoxy. > > > > People in paint test labs tend to be oblivious to the reality of > > > > dealing with dings and scrapes over time in the real world of > > > > cruising. Brent. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , wrote: > > > > > > > > epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive > action of > > > > the zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > >Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: > 8/2/2006 > > > > > > > > When I was getting ready to paint my hull in 1992, I spoke to the > Hempel > > tech about the issue of blistering. He said it was a result of tiny > > pinholes occuring from dust motes and to go around carefully after > > spraying and fill them with a tiny brush. I did this and after 14 > years > > still have no blisters. I painted over flame sprayed zinc. > > > > Steve > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006 > > Actually Brent, they don't. I tried and found that the paint just craters around the pinhole. An hour with the paint brush does do the trick tho. Steve| 11407|11385|2006-08-04 20:48:13|tom|Re: zinc rich primers|I did a lot of research and reading before I decided to go with the zinc primer and it is highly recommended above the water line and inside by a lot of people that use it with no problems at all, as Brent says 22 years no problems, that's good enough for me. The biggest reason for me is being able to sandblast a few hours and prime what's done then you can go back and do more anytime, that and the extra protection when it gets scratched. The biggest problem I can see is its not available here in California it wont pass the voc's so that is what I was told anyway. I think I have a couple gallons coming that's an epoxy zinc rich primer that will pass the voc's. Its weldable and can be top coated with about any type of epoxy or primer. It sure aint cheap. its going to cost me around $125 a gallon by the time I get it " hasmat and shipping through UPS " at least its supposed to cover 600 square feet per gallon. I was told by some of the local paint suppliers that in a couple more years the only primers that will be available here are the water based type, If that happens then what the heck we gonna use on the boats! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "No Reply" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] zinc rich primers > epoxys should not be used over zinc as the anti corrosive action of the > zinc produces gas that causes the impermeable epoxy to lift > mike > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11408|11408|2006-08-04 21:58:46|jmrudholm|Members in Svendborg, Denmark|Is there anyone near Svendborg, Denmark? I'd like some photos of a steel boat tied up in the Ring Andersen yard. Thanks.| 11409|11409|2006-08-05 02:47:46|Aaron|Zink Paints|Ameron Devoe 302H is the zink primer that has been getting used on the platforms in Cook Inlet The link has pdf files and other epoxy paint http://www.mdnautical.com What other brands are out there ?| 11410|11409|2006-08-05 02:49:56|Aaron|Re: Zink Paints|Here is the correct link http://www.mdnautical.com/ameronindex.htm| 11411|11386|2006-08-05 13:56:45|brentswain38|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|The decks , cabin and cockpit of my current boat were made from hot galvanized plate. I washed it with TSP to make sure there was no grease, then vinegar to remove the oxide, then hosed it down with fresh water, let it dry, then epoxy tar. It has stuck like shit to a goose for 22 years , no problem. The galvanized rudder had to shed all it's zinc before anything would stick to it underwater. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 04:04:10PM +0100, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Hi > > > > Don't think about galvanising or zinc spraying steel > > parts prior to powder coating with epoxy either.Years > > ago a friend and I had some motorcycle frames > > shotblasted and epoxied.Dave decided on a belt and > > braces job and had his zinc sprayed after blasting.I > > (cheapskate) didn't and mine were ok.His bubbled badly > > and had to be redone. > > GalvanizeIt.org is an excellent reference site for any questions about > galvanized steel. In their listing of paints that can be used over it, > they show the following entries regarding epoxies: > > `` > Type Compatibility Comments > > ... > > Coal Tar Epoxies Sometimes Rarely used, only if parts are to be buried in soil > > Epoxies Sometimes If paint is specifically manufactured for use with galvanized steel > > Epoxy-Polyamide Yes Has superior adherence to galvanized steel > Cured > '' > > I highly recommend reading the entire page for relevant details. > > http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,291,335.cfm > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > | 11412|11386|2006-08-06 00:09:26|David A. Frantz|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|For those of us new to boat building what exactly is epoxy tar? Knowing what tar is, atleast around here I can't see it mixing with epoxy very well. Is this just a thicker epoxy or is it fortified in some way with an oil based product? The only epoxy paints I have any experience at all with are used on industrial machinery and I'm never seen refernece to tar in these paints. Dave brentswain38 wrote: > The decks , cabin and cockpit of my current boat were made from hot > galvanized plate. I washed it with TSP to make sure there was no > grease, then vinegar to remove the oxide, then hosed it down with > fresh water, let it dry, then epoxy tar. It has stuck like shit to a > goose for 22 years , no problem. > The galvanized rudder had to shed all it's zinc before anything > would stick to it underwater. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 04:04:10PM +0100, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > Don't think about galvanising or zinc spraying steel > > > parts prior to powder coating with epoxy either.Years > > > ago a friend and I had some motorcycle frames > > > shotblasted and epoxied.Dave decided on a belt and > > > braces job and had his zinc sprayed after blasting.I > > > (cheapskate) didn't and mine were ok.His bubbled badly > > > and had to be redone. > > > > GalvanizeIt.org is an excellent reference site for any questions > about > > galvanized steel. In their listing of paints that can be used over > it, > > they show the following entries regarding epoxies: > > > > `` > > Type Compatibility Comments > > > > ... > > > > Coal Tar Epoxies Sometimes Rarely used, only if parts are > to be buried in soil > > > > Epoxies Sometimes If paint is specifically > manufactured for use with galvanized steel > > > > Epoxy-Polyamide Yes Has superior adherence to > galvanized steel > > Cured > > '' > > > > I highly recommend reading the entire page for relevant details. > > > > http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,291,335.cfm > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://linuxgazette.net * > > > > | 11413|11386|2006-08-06 05:22:16|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|Here is a link that can give you some insight. http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > For those of us new to boat building what exactly is epoxy tar? > Knowing what tar is, atleast around here I can't see it mixing with > epoxy very well. Is this just a thicker epoxy or is it fortified in > some way with an oil based product? > > The only epoxy paints I have any experience at all with are used on > industrial machinery and I'm never seen refernece to tar in these paints. > > Dave > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > The decks , cabin and cockpit of my current boat were made from hot > > galvanized plate. I washed it with TSP to make sure there was no > > grease, then vinegar to remove the oxide, then hosed it down with > > fresh water, let it dry, then epoxy tar. It has stuck like shit to a > > goose for 22 years , no problem. > > The galvanized rudder had to shed all it's zinc before anything > > would stick to it underwater. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 04:04:10PM +0100, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > Don't think about galvanising or zinc spraying steel > > > > parts prior to powder coating with epoxy either.Years > > > > ago a friend and I had some motorcycle frames > > > > shotblasted and epoxied.Dave decided on a belt and > > > > braces job and had his zinc sprayed after blasting.I > > > > (cheapskate) didn't and mine were ok.His bubbled badly > > > > and had to be redone. > > > > > > GalvanizeIt.org is an excellent reference site for any questions > > about > > > galvanized steel. In their listing of paints that can be used over > > it, > > > they show the following entries regarding epoxies: > > > > > > `` > > > Type Compatibility Comments > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Coal Tar Epoxies Sometimes Rarely used, only if parts are > > to be buried in soil > > > > > > Epoxies Sometimes If paint is specifically > > manufactured for use with galvanized steel > > > > > > Epoxy-Polyamide Yes Has superior adherence to > > galvanized steel > > > Cured > > > '' > > > > > > I highly recommend reading the entire page for relevant details. > > > > > > http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,291,335.cfm > > > > > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://linuxgazette.net * > > > > > > > > | 11414|11386|2006-08-06 10:32:34|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|Hi All Following the rest of the correspondence the only conclusion I can come to is that epoxies and zinc are like women - some do and some don't,so research what you're using first.That was a good link to coal tar epoxies,but they don't seem to ship to the UK.Back to the drawing board Cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 11415|11386|2006-08-06 15:16:55|tom|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|Hello Andy Dont feel bad, I dont think coal tar epoxy is available in California eather. I am considering keeping my boat just epoxy zinc, I dont mind the grey color and it doesnt have to be top coated, Its also available in a silver color like hot dipped galvanizing. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "ANDREW AIREY" To: Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:32 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers > Hi All > > Following the rest of the correspondence the only > conclusion I can come to is that epoxies and zinc are > like women - some do and some don't,so research what > you're using first.That was a good link to coal tar > epoxies,but they don't seem to ship to the UK.Back to > the drawing board > Cheers > Andy Airey > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and > ease of use." - PC Magazine > http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11416|11386|2006-08-06 16:19:52|edward_stoneuk|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|Andy Airey Coal tar epoxy and pitch epoxy, which is, I understand used for narrowboat (canal barges) hulls is available in the UK. If you google coal pitch epoxy you will find several sources. Regards, Ted| 11417|11385|2006-08-07 23:09:23|peter_d_wiley|Re: zinc rich primers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > I did a lot of research and reading before I decided to go with the zinc > primer and it is highly recommended above the water line and inside by a lot > of people that use it with no problems at all, as Brent says 22 years no > problems, that's good enough for me. The biggest reason for me is being able > to sandblast a few hours and prime what's done then you can go back and do > more anytime, that and the extra protection when it gets scratched. The > biggest problem I can see is its not available here in California it wont > pass the voc's so that is what I was told anyway. I think I have a couple > gallons coming that's an epoxy zinc rich primer that will pass the voc's. > Its weldable and can be top coated with about any type of epoxy or primer. > It sure aint cheap. its going to cost me around $125 a gallon by the time I > get it " hasmat and shipping through UPS " at least its supposed to cover > 600 square feet per gallon. > I was told by some of the local paint suppliers that in a couple more years > the only primers that will be available here are the water based type, If > that happens then what the heck we gonna use on the boats! Don't know about where you are, but here there's a very good water based metal primer that I have been using for years. I wouldn't use it below the WL and it isn't zinc rich, but it is good, dries fast, can be overcoated with almost anything. Unfortunately, the small company that made it got bought out by a bigger one, who discontinued it due to lack of volume sales. I'm buying a few gallons so as to have for use on the internal hull surfaces. PDW| 11418|11385|2006-08-08 08:41:45|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: zinc rich primers|On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 03:07:42AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > I did a lot of research and reading before I decided to go with the zinc > > primer and it is highly recommended above the water line and inside by a lot > > of people that use it with no problems at all, as Brent says 22 years no > > problems, that's good enough for me. The biggest reason for me is being able > > to sandblast a few hours and prime what's done then you can go back and do > > more anytime, that and the extra protection when it gets scratched. The > > biggest problem I can see is its not available here in California it wont > > pass the voc's so that is what I was told anyway. I think I have a couple > > gallons coming that's an epoxy zinc rich primer that will pass the voc's. > > Its weldable and can be top coated with about any type of epoxy or primer. > > It sure aint cheap. its going to cost me around $125 a gallon by the time I > > get it " hasmat and shipping through UPS " at least its supposed to cover > > 600 square feet per gallon. > > I was told by some of the local paint suppliers that in a couple more years > > the only primers that will be available here are the water based type, If > > that happens then what the heck we gonna use on the boats! > > Don't know about where you are, but here there's a very good water based metal primer > that I have been using for years. I wouldn't use it below the WL and it isn't zinc rich, but it > is good, dries fast, can be overcoated with almost anything. > > Unfortunately, the small company that made it got bought out by a bigger one, who > discontinued it due to lack of volume sales. I'm buying a few gallons so as to have for use > on the internal hull surfaces. That sounds like Corroseal (http://www.corroseal.com/). I've heard really great things about it, just got a gallon of it (not cheap - $50 from a local Sherwin-Williams place), and will be trying it within the week. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11419|11393|2006-08-08 13:07:38|Daniel|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|Ed: You can see some pics of our boat in: www.bellatrix.com.ar She is 36,5 feet, and the modification was by me. (I´m guilty Hehehe. .) If you like, I can send you new pics, they are 3 y.o. Daniel / Bellatrix Buenos Aires --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "legacy10548" wrote: > > > I have seen some very nice center cockpit/aft cabin sailing vessels. > But, most of them were in the 50' plus range. Wouldn't the center > cockpit and flush deck aft raise the center of gravity requiring more > ballast? Also I would imagine that the aft cabin, fully equipped > would move a lot of weight to the stern and the center cockpit would > require more beam. Maybe not for a small a footwell type. Am I > correct? I'd like to see some pictures. > > Ed > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic > > design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, > > What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design > so > > forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching > waaaaayyy > > out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. > > so......Here's the question, > > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > > > I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design > paper. > > To start, here's where I'm coming from. > > > > I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the > time > > semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would > get > > out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to > > greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... > > > > I've also sailed center cockpit boats where I pretty much stayed > high > > and dry, in fact on my own boat with a purposefully heavy built > > cockpit cover (to my design to fit that boat) I spent several days > in > > a t-shirt waaaaay off the NorthWest coast in a much worse storm. ... > > the motion was violent, but at least relatively dry. Worked, but > > wasn't aesthetically pleasing..i.e. looked like hell for a sailboat > LOL. > > > > I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially > a > > flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time > in > > the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later > years > > after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this > feature > > as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his > > career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and > > Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both > > bluewater AND european river/canal ability. > > > > Soooo,,, now I'm working on my schooner design but thinking of a > very > > small highly protected cockpit sitting just abaft the main hatch > into > > the main cabin, with a flush deck thereafter all the way to the > stern. > > In this design the 'cockpit' portion below the flush deck would > amount > > to something like a large footwell. > > > > Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious > weather > > it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless > > necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. Since > > most aft cockpits sit too low to effectively see over the top of a > > reasonable pilot house, I'm thinking of an outside steering station > > essentially right up against it, to the port side of the main mast > > (which in my design is anchored into the cockpit floor and the > > pilothouse bulkhead), with a seat high enough so that I can see over > > the top of the pilothouse (thru a small windscreen and under a > > sunshade, and some stainless railing for security) I'm wondering > just > > how much more 'cockpit' I really need? I know a lot of boats > > destined for the tropics boast of std 6'6 1/2 or 7' cockpits so that > > one can "sleep outside under the stars..."...er uh...in my > experience > > i'd just as soon be on an open deck under a bug net:) I guess the > > other excuse is for seating all the people you'll be > > entertaining....well...I don't anticipate running a tour boat... and > > second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush > deck > > by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which > > stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck > > lockers etc. could be bolted? Couldn't a stainless rail system be > > constructed that could have wind screens, i.e. rectangular pieces of > > strong sun resistant fabric tied solidly to the top of the rails and > > weakly to the bottoms so as to block the wind but allow an over the > > deck breaker to simply break the lower fastenings and push thru the > > screens without carrying the whole shebang overboard. > > > > It seems to me that such a design would end up with a lot more > stowage > > space below aft, even enough for a comfy aft cabin. I suspect it > > would weigh less also in that all the steel involved in making the > > cockpit 'box' etc. would be eliminated. The railing would result in > > more windage but how much so? I wouldn't think pipe of sufficient > > strength would be that big of deal. I would no longer need to worry > > about cockpit drains, clogging, leaking below decks or worrying > about > > anything shifting below knocking one loose...YAAAAAAAAYYYY. > > > > If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as > > any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. > > Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted > down > > or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the > dangers > > of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... > > > > I guess the remaining issue is what would it all look like > > aesthetically? I'm going to have to pull out the graphics programs > > and fool around a bit with that. > > > > Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in > everyone's > > comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views > on > > from 'all angles' :) > > > > additional data. 1. The boat is designed to be steered and for the > > most part operated from inside the extended pilothouse during > weather. > > All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside > the > > main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have > > substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external > > piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to > do > > this once)and i think that with either a light or dark hull, the > > stainless rails, pilothouse trim (for abrasion protection etc.) will > > make for a very presentable yacht, not to mention substantially > lower > > the maintenance required. > > > > Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) > > > > seer > > > | 11420|11369|2006-08-08 16:51:09|kingsknight4life|Re: sand blasters|I to made a PA blaster. I never used it though as I think it is too small for use on my boat. I still have the tank if anyone is interested and all the fittings are welded on. Just stop by Home Depotand buy a gun and some fittings and you should be up and running for under $100. Rowland| 11421|11369|2006-08-08 17:12:48|Courtney Thomas|Re: sand blasters|I'm interested. Where are you located, what would it cost to ship and what are you asking for it, please ? Cordially, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sand blasters > I to made a PA blaster. I never used it though as I think it is too > small for use on my boat. I still have the tank if anyone is > interested and all the fittings are welded on. Just stop by Home > Depotand buy a gun and some fittings and you should be up and running > for under $100. > Rowland > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 11422|11386|2006-08-09 05:42:23|David A. Frantz|Re: Fwd: zinc rich primers|Thanks Jon & Wanda! Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Here is a link that can give you some insight. > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html > > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > For those of us new to boat building what exactly is epoxy tar? > > Knowing what tar is, atleast around here I can't see it mixing with > > epoxy very well. Is this just a thicker epoxy or is it fortified > in > > some way with an oil based product? > > > > The only epoxy paints I have any experience at all with are used on > > industrial machinery and I'm never seen refernece to tar in these > paints. > > > > Dave > > > > > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > The decks , cabin and cockpit of my current boat were made from > hot > > > galvanized plate. I washed it with TSP to make sure there was no > > > grease, then vinegar to remove the oxide, then hosed it down with > > > fresh water, let it dry, then epoxy tar. It has stuck like shit > to a > > > goose for 22 years , no problem. > > > The galvanized rudder had to shed all it's zinc before anything > > > would stick to it underwater. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 04:04:10PM +0100, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > Don't think about galvanising or zinc spraying steel > > > > > parts prior to powder coating with epoxy either.Years > > > > > ago a friend and I had some motorcycle frames > > > > > shotblasted and epoxied.Dave decided on a belt and > > > > > braces job and had his zinc sprayed after blasting.I > > > > > (cheapskate) didn't and mine were ok.His bubbled badly > > > > > and had to be redone. > > > > > > > > GalvanizeIt.org is an excellent reference site for any questions > > > about > > > > galvanized steel. In their listing of paints that can be used > over > > > it, > > > > they show the following entries regarding epoxies: > > > > > > > > `` > > > > Type Compatibility Comments > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > Coal Tar Epoxies Sometimes Rarely used, only if parts are > > > to be buried in soil > > > > > > > > Epoxies Sometimes If paint is specifically > > > manufactured for use with galvanized steel > > > > > > > > Epoxy-Polyamide Yes Has superior adherence to > > > galvanized steel > > > > Cured > > > > '' > > > > > > > > I highly recommend reading the entire page for relevant details. > > > > > > > > http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,291,335.cfm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > http://linuxgazette.net > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11423|11409|2006-08-09 22:34:11|tom|Re: Zink Paints|Aaron The zinc rich primer I orderd was from clearco www.clearcoproducts.com Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron" To: Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Zink Paints > Ameron Devoe 302H is the zink primer that has been getting used on the > platforms in Cook Inlet > The link has pdf files and other epoxy paint > http://www.mdnautical.com > What other brands are out there ? > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11424|11369|2006-08-10 01:43:27|kingsknight4life|Re: sand blasters|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > > I'm interested. Where are you located, what would it cost to ship and what > are you asking for it, please ? > > Cordially, > Courtney Courtney I'm located on Vanc. Isl. Rowland| 11425|11369|2006-08-10 07:43:10|Courtney Thomas|Re: sand blasters|Thanks. Any idea of shipping cost and what do you want for it, please ? Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:43 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sand blasters > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" > wrote: > > > > I'm interested. Where are you located, what would it cost to ship > and what > > are you asking for it, please ? > > > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > Courtney > > I'm located on Vanc. Isl. > Rowland > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11426|11426|2006-08-10 10:11:33|jefff0113|Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|Muslim singles' dreamland!!! Here is the world's best and largest Muslim matrimonial service site around the world, where you can enjoy a real muslim communication. http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/ http://www.geocities.com/friendsofmuslim| 11427|11369|2006-08-10 14:34:38|kingsknight4life|Re: sand blasters|Courtney If you want to ship it, it will cost a lot. To send it Greyhound from Duncan to Sackville NB (I don't know where out east you are ) was $70. Still interested? Rowland > > Thanks. Any idea of shipping cost and what do you want for it, please ?| 11428|11369|2006-08-10 14:42:52|Courtney Thomas|Re: sand blasters|I can receive it either in Atlanta or Port Hawkesbury, NS, whichever is cheaper. Is it your judgment that it's not worth the shipping cost ? Any chance of a picture ? Appreciatively, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sand blasters > Courtney > If you want to ship it, it will cost a lot. To send it Greyhound from > Duncan to Sackville NB (I don't know where out east you are ) was $70. > Still interested? > Rowland > > > > Thanks. Any idea of shipping cost and what do you want for it, > please ? > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 11429|11426|2006-08-10 19:25:03|Barry Gorman|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|Just What We All Need Now With The latest Terrorist Alert In England ! All terrorists are Muslims ,BUT Not all Muslims Are Terrorists ! ! My Question is How does this post Below have relevance to ORIGAMIBOATS And why was it Posted ? Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: jefff0113 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Muslim singles' dreamland!!! Muslim singles' dreamland!!! Here is the world's best and largest Muslim matrimonial service site around the world, where you can enjoy a real muslim communication. http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/ http://www.geocities.com/friendsofmuslim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11430|11426|2006-08-10 21:31:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|Dig a trench in the sand put the sheets of steal over trench use explosives in a peacefull way to fold sheets. Other then that your guess is as good as mine. Unless they are willing to weld for a nonmuslim. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Gorman" wrote: > > Just What We All Need Now With The latest Terrorist Alert In > England ! > > All terrorists are Muslims ,BUT Not all Muslims Are Terrorists ! ! > > My Question is How does this post Below have relevance to > ORIGAMIBOATS And why was it Posted ? > > Barry Gorman > Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA > BarryandPamGorman@... > http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jefff0113 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:11 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Muslim singles' dreamland!!! > > > Muslim singles' dreamland!!! > > Here is the world's best and largest Muslim matrimonial service site > around the world, where you can enjoy a real muslim communication. > > http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/ > > http://www.geocities.com/friendsofmuslim > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11431|11426|2006-08-11 10:51:12|audeojude|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|So what is real muslim communication? Taken from a muslim curriculum we now have the answer conversations over a bomb class 101 assualt rifle discusions class 110 how to stiffle the issue with bioweapons class 210 letting it all out with an airplane class 345 and the new twist on I'm ok, your ok I'm ok, your dead and I'm ok with that in the introduction to terrorist psychology 101 and in advanced psychology 201 how to feel no guilt because It's not my fault god wants you dead. .. ok a bit rude but im really tired of seeing people on a bus or in a mall blown up but fanatical freaks. I know not all musilims are terrorists but even most of the i guess you would call them nice ones I have talked to are scary in their appologist attitude toward the terrorists... its all "yes it is very bad that they do these terrorists acts but they have good reasons to do this." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Gorman" wrote: > > Just What We All Need Now With The latest Terrorist Alert In > England ! > > All terrorists are Muslims ,BUT Not all Muslims Are Terrorists ! ! > > My Question is How does this post Below have relevance to > ORIGAMIBOATS And why was it Posted ? > > Barry Gorman > Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA > BarryandPamGorman@... > http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jefff0113 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:11 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Muslim singles' dreamland!!! > > > Muslim singles' dreamland!!! > > Here is the world's best and largest Muslim matrimonial service site > around the world, where you can enjoy a real muslim communication. > > http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/ > > http://www.geocities.com/friendsofmuslim > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11432|11426|2006-08-11 18:00:58|..|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|This must be the place all muslim bombers are conned into thinking they will go to when they detonate the bombs,they will be in for a disappointment when everything goes black! We don't mind them blowing themselves up provided they do not kill innocent people, all Muslims are now considered as terrorist. Barry wrote Just What We All Need Now With The latest Terrorist Alert In England ! All terrorists are Muslims ,BUT Not all Muslims Are Terrorists ! ! My Question is How does this post Below have relevance to ORIGAMIBOATS And why was it Posted ? Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA HYPERLINK "mailto:BarryandPamGorman%40bigpond.com"BarryandPamGorman@... HYPERLINK "http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards"http://community.-webshots. -com/user/-oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: jefff0113 To: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@-yahoogroups.-com Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Muslim singles' dreamland!!! Muslim singles' dreamland!!! Here is the world's best and largest Muslim matrimonial service site around the world, where you can enjoy a real muslim communication. HYPERLINK "http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/"http://www.geocitie-s.com/m uslimmarr-iageservice/ HYPERLINK "http://www.geocities.com/friendsofmuslim"http://www.geocitie-s.com/friendso fm-uslim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11433|11426|2006-08-11 18:15:39|brentswain38|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|lts get back on topic and do this on the political chatlines. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > > This must be the place all muslim bombers are conned into thinking they > > will go to when they detonate the bombs,they will be in for a disappointment > > when everything goes black! > > We don't mind them blowing themselves up provided they do not kill > > innocent people, all Muslims are now considered as terrorist. > > > > Barry wrote > > Just What We All Need Now With The latest Terrorist Alert In > England ! > > All terrorists are Muslims ,BUT Not all Muslims Are Terrorists ! ! > > My Question is How does this post Below have relevance to > ORIGAMIBOATS And why was it Posted ? > > Barry Gorman > Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA > HYPERLINK > "mailto:BarryandPamGorman%40bigpond.com"BarryandPamGorman@... > HYPERLINK > "http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards"http://community.-webshots. > -com/user/-oldoutboards > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jefff0113 > To: HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats%40yahoogroups.com"origamiboats@... > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:11 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Muslim singles' dreamland!!! > > Muslim singles' dreamland!!! > > Here is the world's best and largest Muslim matrimonial service site > around the world, where you can enjoy a real muslim communication. > > HYPERLINK > "http://www.geocities.com/muslimmarriageservice/"http://www.geocitie-s.com/m > uslimmarr-iageservice/ > > HYPERLINK > "http://www.geocities.com/friendsofmuslim"http://www.geocitie-s.com/friendso > fm-uslim > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11434|11426|2006-08-11 19:23:21|Barry Gorman|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|I am Sorry It went this way , BUT The original Thread Starting This Was Posted On Our SITE, Allowing I believe a right of reply ' As the subject IS current to all Regards Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!! lts time to get back on topic and do this on the political chatlines. Brent Barry wrote Just What We All Need Now With The latest Terrorist Alert In England ! All terrorists are Muslims ,BUT Not all Muslims Are Terrorists ! ! My Question is How does this post Below have relevance to ORIGAMIBOATS And why was it Posted ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11435|11426|2006-08-11 19:30:27|jim dorey|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > > Dig a trench in the sand put the sheets of steal over trench use > explosives in a peacefull way to fold sheets. Other then that your > guess is as good as mine. Unless they are willing to weld for a > nonmuslim. > > Jon reminds me of something i saw on discovery 7 or 8 years ago, a woman carved some plaster forms, real nice stuff, laid a sheet of copper on it, then explosives, made some real nice relief panels, but that's all i can remember.| 11436|11436|2006-08-12 04:26:55|Glenn Cramond|For those with a similar passion for cars|Check out http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/ Regards. Glenn www.metalbashatorium.com| 11437|11426|2006-08-12 04:47:46|edward_stoneuk|Re: Muslim singles' dreamland!!!|Barry, The original thread, which was off topic, was about a matrimonial site not about terrorism. Two wrongs do not make a right. Your assertion about all terrorists being muslim is wrong. Here in British Isles for years until the recent outrages the terrorists have been Irish republicans. I assure you they are not muslim. The muslims I have worked with have all been kind and considerate people. Obviously some are not. Brent is right, there are other sites for political and religious polemic. Love thy neighbour. Regards, Ted| 11438|11438|2006-08-12 04:56:41|edward_stoneuk|Explosive forming of steel|An engineering lecturer who used to work at the local university had done his doctorate on the explosive forming of steel. As Jon says the explosive is placed on one side of the steel plate and a die on the other. The explosive forces the steel into the die and hey presto. Explosives are also used to meld two metals together. I think the aluminium steel strip used to join aluminium superstructures to steel hulls is made in the same way. Regards, Ted| 11439|11439|2006-08-12 04:59:38|edward_stoneuk|Diesel tank fittings|Soon I will be fitting out my two bilge keel diesel tanks, and have been thinking about the fillers and the problem of spillage. Here in the UK folks have been fined for letting fuel spill into the water. One concern is the size of the filler pipe, another foaming of the fuel as it is being filled and another a cheap and reliable fuel level gauge. Any thoughts and experiences on this will be gratefuly received. Regards, Ted| 11440|11439|2006-08-12 09:19:57|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:59:36AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Soon I will be fitting out my two bilge keel diesel tanks, and have > been thinking about the fillers and the problem of spillage. Here in > the UK folks have been fined for letting fuel spill into the water. > One concern is the size of the filler pipe, another foaming of the > fuel as it is being filled and another a cheap and reliable fuel level > gauge. Any thoughts and experiences on this will be gratefuly > received. That's actually one of the projects I'm doing on Ulysses right now; my wife and I just finished reinstalling the deck fill for water about 10 minutes ago. I'd be welding up the overflow pipe right now instead of writing this, but an injector in my diesel appears to have gone kaput (smoke comes out when I loosen the fuel line going to it), so I can't run my (engine-driven) welder. :((( Anybody know of a source for industrial Mitsubishi diesel parts? Anyway, I'm a believer in big fill pipes. When I was cruising in the Caribbean, I was able to fill up at a bunkerage facility in Puerto Rico while many other boats - including big power boats - couldn't, since the facility's nozzle was too big to fit their tiny "yachty" deck fills. I also like the fact that there's room for air to escape around the nozzle; this eliminates 'spitting' when the fuel is foaming, and allows you to see if anything is coming back up the pipe at you in time to stop pumping. As to overflow pipes, I like a small-diameter (1/2" ID) pipe coming up to the deck and expanding out into a larger (1" ID) standpipe with an inverted U-shape on top. The smaller pipe "whistles" at an increasing pitch as the tank fills up; when the whistling sound disappears, the fuel has reached the top of it. The larger pipe will contain any overflow (although you should have a container sitting under it just in case) and let it drain back into the tank. Oh yes - put a fine screen on the large pipe outlet. Spiders and wasps like to build nests inside if you don't. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11441|11436|2006-08-12 09:44:31|Aaron Williams|Re: For those with a similar passion for cars|Nice Bug Can you calculate how many HP would be in the sails for BS36 at any given wind speed? Glenn Cramond wrote: Check out http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/ Regards. Glenn www.metalbashatorium.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11442|11439|2006-08-12 10:30:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Thanks Ben, What size have you got for the filler pipe and do you have a level gauge? Regards, Ted| 11443|11439|2006-08-12 11:31:32|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Hi, Ted - On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 02:29:38PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Thanks Ben, > > What size have you got for the filler pipe and do you have a level > gauge? Right at this moment, I'd have to dig the diesel deck fitting out from under a bunch of steel, etc. to measure exactly - but a SWAG says that it's a 2.5" fitting. As to a level gauge - yeah, I've got one, but it sucks. Although I think I've figured out how to fix it. Right now, it's just a pair of elbows at the top and the bottom of the tank, with a (nominally) clear diesel-proof hose connecting them. The problem is that "nominally" part - the hose started off being clear, but turned yellow within a few months, and became so dingy after a few more that it is completely unreadable. I suspect that it's not quite as "diesel-proof" as it's supposed to be. Replacing it is, of course, a pain: I have to either do it when the tank's run dry, or I can put up with spilling some diesel in my engine room, both coming and going. Bleh. My thought for fixing it is this: buy a thick-wall Pyrex tube that's about the same diameter as the elbows; then, get a piece of stainless pipe whose ID is pretty close to the OD of the Pyrex tube. Take it down to a machine shop and have them mill a slot down the length of the pipe on both sides (i.e., all the way through), except, say, an inch on each end, then use a short piece of hose with clamps to secure the Pyrex pipe in its SS jacket to the elbows. For that extra touch of luxury, stick a long strip of reflective tape to the tank immediately behind the new pipe. Right after I do this project, of course, I'll start on building a brand-new BS42 or so... because I'll have run out of projects aboard Ulysses. :) In other words, it's sorta low priority. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * | 11444|11439|2006-08-12 12:30:45|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Ben, That's my experience of sight gauges; they get dirty and its very difficult to see a clear liquid. Those with a little ball that floats on top of the fluid are a bit better. My fuel tanks are in the bilge keels so a sight gauge is not possible. I have seen fuel gauges that consist of a float with a slot vertically in it that slides up captive guides turning a thin piece of flat bar with a twist in it. The top of the twisted flat turns the needle of a gauge that is fixed in the top of the tank. The problem is that my tanks are not wide and are on the slant so that the gauge would also on the slant and may jam. A 2½" filler pipe is a good size. Is the filler pipe all steel from the deck to the tank or do you have a rubber hose to allow for flexing? How do you cap the deck inlet? Regards, Ted| 11445|11439|2006-08-12 12:35:43|Aaron Williams|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Ed You might take a look at these tank gauges. I installed 1 in my power boat tank this year where my baffels prevented the swing arm type from working. http://www.wemausa.com/index.htm edward_stoneuk wrote: Ben, That's my experience of sight gauges; they get dirty and its very difficult to see a clear liquid. Those with a little ball that floats on top of the fluid are a bit better. My fuel tanks are in the bilge keels so a sight gauge is not possible. I have seen fuel gauges that consist of a float with a slot vertically in it that slides up captive guides turning a thin piece of flat bar with a twist in it. The top of the twisted flat turns the needle of a gauge that is fixed in the top of the tank. The problem is that my tanks are not wide and are on the slant so that the gauge would also on the slant and may jam. A 2½" filler pipe is a good size. Is the filler pipe all steel from the deck to the tank or do you have a rubber hose to allow for flexing? How do you cap the deck inlet? Regards, Ted __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11446|11439|2006-08-12 13:23:11|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 04:28:13PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Ben, > That's my experience of sight gauges; they get dirty and its very > difficult to see a clear liquid. Those with a little ball that floats > on top of the fluid are a bit better. My fuel tanks are in the bilge > keels so a sight gauge is not possible. I have seen fuel gauges that > consist of a float with a slot vertically in it that slides up captive > guides turning a thin piece of flat bar with a twist in it. The top > of the twisted flat turns the needle of a gauge that is fixed in the > top of the tank. The problem is that my tanks are not wide and are on > the slant so that the gauge would also on the slant and may jam. Have you considered using a dipstick? That's what I had on my previous boat, and it was a lot less hassle than even my current rig; I didn't have to dive into the engine room to see the level. [laugh] Now I'm visualizing a metal retractor tape with a magnet on it dropped into the fuel tank and with the tape end attached to the deck fill cap with, say, bead chain. That would be pretty simple, and the diesel would keep it nicely lubed. > A 2½" filler pipe is a good size. Is the filler pipe all steel from > the deck to the tank or do you have a rubber hose to allow for > flexing? How do you cap the deck inlet? I've got very heavy-duty hose between the tank and the fill. The deck inlet is what came with the boat, a chromed brass type. I've considered just extending it up to the plate that's right above it (it's welded to my cockpit coaming, and provides a place for a winch and a cleat), in which case I wouldn't use the deck fitting anymore; I'd replace it with a short stainless nipple and cap. Wouldn't look quite as yachty, but to me, that's a plus. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11447|11439|2006-08-12 14:12:21|David A. Frantz|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > Hi Ben; That all sounds good but just what do you mean by BIG? Are we talking a 1" pipe or something around 6"? I only ask because one would think that there would be a standard someplace that people could reference. By the way I like the idea with respect the stand pipe and the whistling sound. Dave > > Anyway, I'm a believer in big fill pipes. When I was cruising in the > Caribbean, I was able to fill up at a bunkerage facility in Puerto Rico > while many other boats - including big power boats - couldn't, since the > facility's nozzle was too big to fit their tiny "yachty" deck fills. I > also like the fact that there's room for air to escape around the > nozzle; this eliminates 'spitting' when the fuel is foaming, and allows > you to see if anything is coming back up the pipe at you in time to stop > pumping. > > As to overflow pipes, I like a small-diameter (1/2" ID) pipe coming up > to the deck and expanding out into a larger (1" ID) standpipe with an > inverted U-shape on top. The smaller pipe "whistles" at an increasing > pitch as the tank fills up; when the whistling sound disappears, the > fuel has reached the top of it. The larger pipe will contain any > overflow (although you should have a container sitting under it just in > case) and let it drain back into the tank. Oh yes - put a fine screen on > the large pipe outlet. Spiders and wasps like to build nests inside if > you don't. > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://linuxgazette.net * > > | 11448|11439|2006-08-12 15:10:48|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Hi, David - On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 02:08:54PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > That all sounds good but just what do you mean by BIG? Are we talking > a 1" pipe or something around 6"? I only ask because one would think > that there would be a standard someplace that people could reference. You're right, and I corrected it in a later post. To the best of my recollection, it's a ~2.5" ID. > By the way I like the idea with respect the stand pipe and the whistling > sound. I started listening to the sound of my overflow pipe way back when, and realized that I could consistently hear, based on the pitch, where the fuel was... unfortunately, with a 1/2" pipe, the sound stops and the fuel overflows at the same time. Adding a 1" ID, a foot-or-so high standpipe not only eliminated the problem, it also amplified the whistling nicely. Recently, I saw an add-on gadget at West Marine that's supposed to do the same thing. I was quite amused by the fact that somebody saw a commercial opportunity where I just thought "nifty idea". * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * | 11449|11439|2006-08-12 23:11:32|seeratlas|Re: Diesel tank fittings|I'll second the oversize fill suggestion. On one of trips to Alaska I had to fill up at a "large ship dock". Not only was the nozzle considerably larger than I was used too, the fact that I was about 30 feet below the level of the dock and rubbing up against tarred pilings was a bit of a bother also :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:59:36AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Soon I will be fitting out my two bilge keel diesel tanks, and have > > been thinking about the fillers and the problem of spillage. Here in > > the UK folks have been fined for letting fuel spill into the water. > > One concern is the size of the filler pipe, another foaming of the > > fuel as it is being filled and another a cheap and reliable fuel level > > gauge. Any thoughts and experiences on this will be gratefuly > > received. > > That's actually one of the projects I'm doing on Ulysses right now; my > wife and I just finished reinstalling the deck fill for water about 10 > minutes ago. I'd be welding up the overflow pipe right now instead of > writing this, but an injector in my diesel appears to have gone kaput > (smoke comes out when I loosen the fuel line going to it), so I can't > run my (engine-driven) welder. :((( Anybody know of a source for > industrial Mitsubishi diesel parts? > > Anyway, I'm a believer in big fill pipes. When I was cruising in the > Caribbean, I was able to fill up at a bunkerage facility in Puerto Rico > while many other boats - including big power boats - couldn't, since the > facility's nozzle was too big to fit their tiny "yachty" deck fills. I > also like the fact that there's room for air to escape around the > nozzle; this eliminates 'spitting' when the fuel is foaming, and allows > you to see if anything is coming back up the pipe at you in time to stop > pumping. > > As to overflow pipes, I like a small-diameter (1/2" ID) pipe coming up > to the deck and expanding out into a larger (1" ID) standpipe with an > inverted U-shape on top. The smaller pipe "whistles" at an increasing > pitch as the tank fills up; when the whistling sound disappears, the > fuel has reached the top of it. The larger pipe will contain any > overflow (although you should have a container sitting under it just in > case) and let it drain back into the tank. Oh yes - put a fine screen on > the large pipe outlet. Spiders and wasps like to build nests inside if > you don't. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * > | 11450|11439|2006-08-12 23:23:46|seeratlas|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Oh, and on the fuel tank gauge question, I've always used a 'day tank' with gravity feed for reliability purposes, and assurance that I have clean, 'mostly' non-foamy fuel. (the fuel ran the gauntlet thru a racor filter array to make absolutely sure only the 'good stuff' made it to the injection pump. On that tank, that best idea I can recall was on a boat I saw in Europe where the fellow had essentially a standing pipe run right into the cockpit next to the helm station. The top was a brass screw-on fitting fixed with a chain. When you opened it, you saw the top end of a brass rod which went all the way to the bottom of the daytank. He just pulled it up, saw where the fuel level was, and dropped it back down and screwed on the lid. Pretty much fool proof AND the fact that the pipe went clear down meant all the sloshing around in the tank didn't overly invalidate his reading as there was no splashing higher up the rod than the mean level :) Was pretty slick, looked good with the shiny brass cap and pretty much foolproof. It's on my design sheet for my next boat :) Now if u don't have a daytank, and your tank is at the very bottom of the bilge (likely) then the length of the rod may become a factor, but in his case it was about 3 feet long and no big deal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I'll second the oversize fill suggestion. On one of trips to Alaska I > had to fill up at a "large ship dock". Not only was the nozzle > considerably larger than I was used too, the fact that I was about 30 > feet below the level of the dock and rubbing up against tarred pilings > was a bit of a bother also :) > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 08:59:36AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > Soon I will be fitting out my two bilge keel diesel tanks, and have > > > been thinking about the fillers and the problem of spillage. Here in > > > the UK folks have been fined for letting fuel spill into the water. > > > One concern is the size of the filler pipe, another foaming of the > > > fuel as it is being filled and another a cheap and reliable fuel > level > > > gauge. Any thoughts and experiences on this will be gratefuly > > > received. > > > > That's actually one of the projects I'm doing on Ulysses right now; my > > wife and I just finished reinstalling the deck fill for water about 10 > > minutes ago. I'd be welding up the overflow pipe right now instead of > > writing this, but an injector in my diesel appears to have gone kaput > > (smoke comes out when I loosen the fuel line going to it), so I can't > > run my (engine-driven) welder. :((( Anybody know of a source for > > industrial Mitsubishi diesel parts? > > > > Anyway, I'm a believer in big fill pipes. When I was cruising in the > > Caribbean, I was able to fill up at a bunkerage facility in Puerto Rico > > while many other boats - including big power boats - couldn't, since the > > facility's nozzle was too big to fit their tiny "yachty" deck fills. I > > also like the fact that there's room for air to escape around the > > nozzle; this eliminates 'spitting' when the fuel is foaming, and allows > > you to see if anything is coming back up the pipe at you in time to stop > > pumping. > > > > As to overflow pipes, I like a small-diameter (1/2" ID) pipe coming up > > to the deck and expanding out into a larger (1" ID) standpipe with an > > inverted U-shape on top. The smaller pipe "whistles" at an increasing > > pitch as the tank fills up; when the whistling sound disappears, the > > fuel has reached the top of it. The larger pipe will contain any > > overflow (although you should have a container sitting under it just in > > case) and let it drain back into the tank. Oh yes - put a fine screen on > > the large pipe outlet. Spiders and wasps like to build nests inside if > > you don't. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://linuxgazette.net * > > > | 11451|11439|2006-08-13 06:32:10|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Aaron Williams wrote: > > Ed > You might take a look at these tank gauges. I installed 1 in my power boat tank this year where my baffels prevented the swing arm type from working. > http://www.wemausa.com/index.htm Aaron, Thanks, I have used these before at work on leachate treatment tanks. From memory there is a magnet in the float that operates a series of reed switches in the riser tube. They are neat. I have two water tanks in the bilge. Two fuel tanks in the bilge keels and a holding tank, probably in the stern, so that I have a way of balancing the trim a bit when at sea. It all becomes a bit expensive. I have thought about dip sticks, although perhaps not for the holding tank. The diesel tanks are in an akward place for a dipstick as there is furniture above them and the stick would have to go up to the deck. The water tanks are under the cabin sole. I have never used a dipstick for water, but think it might be difficult to see on a brass or stainless stick. Regards, Ted| 11452|11439|2006-08-13 06:37:13|edward_stoneuk|Re: Diesel tank fittings|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I'll second the oversize fill suggestion. On one of trips to Alaska I > had to fill up at a "large ship dock". Not only was the nozzle > considerably larger than I was used too, the fact that I was about 30 > feet below the level of the dock and rubbing up against tarred pilings > was a bit of a bother also :) > > seer Seer, Sounds like a telescopic filler would be useful as well. Or a filler in the top of the mast! What was the OD of the nozzle? Regards, Ted| 11453|11393|2006-08-13 11:58:28|Puck III|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|OK , I made a New photoalbum : "Theoreticaly speaking" NO afthcockpit - Interesting ??? is its name . nothing NEW , but worth considering ! OB ================================== --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Ok, let me preface the following by acknowledging the existing basic > design scheme that Brent has reached thru many years of evolution, > What I'm going to discuss does not apply to his aft cockpit design so > forget all that for a moment :) I'm just mentally reaching waaaaayyy > out there to look at a problem from a different perspective. > so......Here's the question, > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > I'm going to ask you all to start with a clean sheet of design paper. > To start, here's where I'm coming from. > > I've sailed aft cockpit boats in heavy weather and spent half the time > semi-immersed and sweating whether the water in the cockpit would get > out thru the drains before the next wave climbed over the stern to > greet me...its a miserable way to sail.... > > I've also sailed center cockpit boats where I pretty much stayed high > and dry, in fact on my own boat with a purposefully heavy built > cockpit cover (to my design to fit that boat) I spent several days in > a t-shirt waaaaay off the NorthWest coast in a much worse storm.... > the motion was violent, but at least relatively dry. Worked, but > wasn't aesthetically pleasing..i.e. looked like hell for a sailboat LOL. > > I've also spent some time on 'great cabin' designs with essentially a > flush rear deck under which lies a pretty nice place to spend time in > the boat. Some very highly regarded sailors have in their later years > after a lifetime of sailing, come to choose designs with this feature > as their 'last' boat, including a rather famous fellow who ended his > career on a 50 ftr named "Yankee" custom designed by Sparkman and > Stephens for almost the same exact use I have planned, i.e. Both > bluewater AND european river/canal ability. > > Soooo,,, now I'm working on my schooner design but thinking of a very > small highly protected cockpit sitting just abaft the main hatch into > the main cabin, with a flush deck thereafter all the way to the stern. > In this design the 'cockpit' portion below the flush deck would amount > to something like a large footwell. > > Now I'm with Brent on his opinion that in any kind of serious weather > it makes no sense to be anywhere but in the pilot house unless > necessity of the moment demands some action be taken on deck. Since > most aft cockpits sit too low to effectively see over the top of a > reasonable pilot house, I'm thinking of an outside steering station > essentially right up against it, to the port side of the main mast > (which in my design is anchored into the cockpit floor and the > pilothouse bulkhead), with a seat high enough so that I can see over > the top of the pilothouse (thru a small windscreen and under a > sunshade, and some stainless railing for security) I'm wondering just > how much more 'cockpit' I really need? I know a lot of boats > destined for the tropics boast of std 6'6 1/2 or 7' cockpits so that > one can "sleep outside under the stars..."...er uh...in my experience > i'd just as soon be on an open deck under a bug net:) I guess the > other excuse is for seating all the people you'll be > entertaining....well...I don't anticipate running a tour boat...and > second, couldn't very effective seating be constructed on a flush deck > by using Brent's expedient of welding in mounting nuts to which > stainless or aluminum plastic/nylon-isolated bench seating, deck > lockers etc. could be bolted? Couldn't a stainless rail system be > constructed that could have wind screens, i.e. rectangular pieces of > strong sun resistant fabric tied solidly to the top of the rails and > weakly to the bottoms so as to block the wind but allow an over the > deck breaker to simply break the lower fastenings and push thru the > screens without carrying the whole shebang overboard. > > It seems to me that such a design would end up with a lot more stowage > space below aft, even enough for a comfy aft cabin. I suspect it > would weigh less also in that all the steel involved in making the > cockpit 'box' etc. would be eliminated. The railing would result in > more windage but how much so? I wouldn't think pipe of sufficient > strength would be that big of deal. I would no longer need to worry > about cockpit drains, clogging, leaking below decks or worrying about > anything shifting below knocking one loose...YAAAAAAAAYYYY. > > If the weather and seas are nice, the deck seems as good a place as > any to enjoy the world and perhaps better than sitting in a hole. > Collapseable or fold up pipe seats could be designed to be bolted down > or removed as required. Visibility would be improved, and the dangers > of pooping in a following sea drastically reduced... > > I guess the remaining issue is what would it all look like > aesthetically? I'm going to have to pull out the graphics programs > and fool around a bit with that. > > Anyway something to think about. I'd be very interested in everyone's > comments as this is something that I'd literally like to get views on > from 'all angles' :) > > additional data. 1. The boat is designed to be steered and for the > most part operated from inside the extended pilothouse during weather. > All sails can be reefed from the helm station immediately outside the > main hatch. Since the design goal is a ~43ft LOD, I have > substantially more room to work with than in the 36'. All external > piping would be stainless (I know its expensive but I only want to do > this once)and i think that with either a light or dark hull, the > stainless rails, pilothouse trim (for abrasion protection etc.) will > make for a very presentable yacht, not to mention substantially lower > the maintenance required. > > Anyway, my musing for the day :) PLEASE..have at it :) > > seer > | 11454|11439|2006-08-13 17:23:44|seeratlas|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Seems to me it was just about 3" in diameter, and boy did you have to be careful, when they turned it on, fuel was REALLY coming down the pipe. I didn't even worry about getting close to full as from the sound of things if you didn't guess it just right you were going to have a full scale geyser on your hands. The whole thing was scary as hell. NOT recommended if you could avoid it. Actually the whole problem came about becatuse I asked someone else to check the amount of fuel on board (my brother). Lesson learned...if its REALLY important, as in your safety is at stake, do whatever is required yourself.Then you'll "REALLY KNOW" whether all is as it should be. I hate to say it but unfortunately it has been my experience that even if only for your own personal peace of mind, it is invariably best to check off all critical systems yourself. I suspect its the reason that a lot of experienced sailors eventually come around to some manifestation of Brent's philosophy, i.e. "If I don't know how it works and can't fix it myself, it aint gettin on the boat.!!!!!! seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I'll second the oversize fill suggestion. On one of trips to Alaska I > > had to fill up at a "large ship dock". Not only was the nozzle > > considerably larger than I was used too, the fact that I was about 30 > > feet below the level of the dock and rubbing up against tarred > pilings > > was a bit of a bother also :) > > > > seer > > > Seer, > > Sounds like a telescopic filler would be useful as well. Or a filler > in the top of the mast! What was the OD of the nozzle? > > Regards, > > Ted > | 11455|11393|2006-08-13 17:34:58|seeratlas|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|Ted, On the million dollar plus "Hylas" line of yachts the builder has designed into the perimeter railing some fold down seats that are extremely clever and in stainless quite attractive. The ones I saw were at both the stern quarters and when folded up into the railing (of which they are a part) take up almost no space and are not at all unsightly. When deployed they look like a heck of nice place to sit back with your arms resting on the railing and just enjoying the sail :) Of course these have expensive shellac'd teak seating surfaces built in, but a naugahyde padded cushion would probably be more comfortable and easily stowed below when not being used. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > I haven't put in cockpit yet, although I have it bent into a trough. > I have left it out to make it easier to put in the stern tube, engine > and pipework in. I have thought about having a flush deck, but have > not made my mind up. If one is feeling a bit sick then lying in the > cockpit might be better than in the pilot house or rolling about the > deck, but I quite like the idea of not having a cockpit. We intend > putting fold down seats on the quarter rails a bit like on some Legend > sailboats anyway. Some of Tom Colvin's designs, such as the famous > Gazelle do not have cockpits. > > Regards, > Ted > | 11456|11393|2006-08-13 17:36:41|seeratlas|Re: Theoretically speaking.....|-heheh don't know if you're joking or not but seems to me Blondie Hasler had something like that on his "Jester" boat with which he raced across the atlantic. :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > seeratlas wrote: > > > Just how big of a cockpit is really necessary? > > bout the size of a tank cockpit. hole in the cabin roof that you can stand in, kayak skirt > cinched tight round your neck(what kinda weenie needs oxygen anyway?) so you can sit down, all > controls inside within easy reach, showing through a tiny window. i don't know if i'm joking > or not, so don't take me seriously. > | 11457|11439|2006-08-13 22:14:53|khooper_fboats|Re: Diesel tank fittings|A fuel tank sender can be a simple potentiometer and really should not be difficult to build I would think. Here's a drawing of guts of the simple tank senders Volkswagen put in their cars back in the day: http://www.hallvw.clara.net/fuelsend.htm --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > Ed > You might take a look at these tank gauges. I installed 1 in my power boat tank this year where my baffels prevented the swing arm type from working. > http://www.wemausa.com/index.htm | 11458|11439|2006-08-13 22:40:54|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 02:14:51AM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > > A fuel tank sender can be a simple potentiometer and really should not > be difficult to build I would think. Here's a drawing of guts of the > simple tank senders Volkswagen put in their cars back in the day: > > http://www.hallvw.clara.net/fuelsend.htm Well, there's a little problem involved in just building something like that. Imagine what happens when the contacts on that float get old and worn; instead of sliding smoothly and making continuous contact, they're now making and breaking it - and guess what happens when you do that? Sparks. Presumably, VW had a resistor in series with the meter and the sender, which would keep the current low enough to prevent sparks, or perhaps the meter resistance was sufficient to do that. Absent that, though, this would be a very dangerous thing to do around gasoline. Doing this safely would be as simple as coupling the standard float mechanism (twisted bar driven by a float) to a potentiometer rather than a needle - but, again, I'd make sure that the minimum circuit resistance was sufficient to prevent sparks. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11459|11439|2006-08-14 00:08:48|Peter|Re: Diesel tank fittings|For safety, fuel tanks in modern cars are carefully designed to never allow air in. They even have a little spring loaded door that you stick the fuel filler nozzle past when filling. All this keeps oxygen out, and only fuel vapor in the tank. This allows much safer use of the very common, non-insulated electrical wires in the tank. With the "breathing" that will occur through the fuel tank's air vent in a boat, however, it may be worth using a system that does not use exposed electrical wires, and especially not contacts. Poor handling of similar problems has led to the redesign of fuel tank systems in boats and aircraft. Oil tankers for example, are now required to fill their holds with "inert gas" while they are offloading their oil. For a simple fuel sender, a magnetic reed switch system that has no exposed contacts - and hence no exposed sparks - should work fine. The contacts are enclosed in a tiny glass tube. See below: http://rocky.digikey.com/scripts/ProductInfo.dll?Site=US&V=420&M=FR2024 A bunch of these switches, placed at intervals inside a piece of hard plastic tubing that extends into the tank, with a sliding float + magnet should do the trick. Then setup some LED lights for your readout, and a momentary power switch that powers the thing only when you care to know your fuel level. This way, a single flashlight battery will power the thing for years. (You can power the thing constantly off 12v/etc too. Just add a resistor to set the LED's to a reasonable brightness. Careful not to fry them when you are deciding how bright is too bright - stay below the LED manufacturers recommended current.) Peter khooper_fboats wrote: > > > A fuel tank sender can be a simple potentiometer and really should not > be difficult to build I would think. Here's a drawing of guts of the > simple tank senders Volkswagen put in their cars back in the day: > > http://www.hallvw.clara.net/fuelsend.htm > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > Ed > > You might take a look at these tank gauges. I installed 1 in my > power boat tank this year where my baffels prevented the swing arm > type from working. > > http://www.wemausa.com/index.htm > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11460|11439|2006-08-14 11:45:51|khooper_fboats|Re: Diesel tank fittings|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > Well, there's a little problem involved in just building something like > that. Imagine what happens when the contacts on that float get old and > worn; instead of sliding smoothly and making continuous contact, they're > now making and breaking it - and guess what happens when you do that? > Sparks. Here's some more on that simple system: http://www.type2.com/library/misc/vwggauge.htm Looks like they were shooting 12 volts right through there. VWs caught fire for many reasons but I've never heard of a tank fire for this particular reason, though. =^) It only needs enough voltage to be able to measure the difference between (in this case) 10 ohms when the float is at the top, and 70 ohms when it's at the bottom. Diesel is a decent lubricant (which should prevent the contacts wearing) and it doesn't care about sparks, so I wonder if something like this wouldn't work for a diesel tank. --Ken| 11461|11439|2006-08-14 14:31:26|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 03:42:55PM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > Well, there's a little problem involved in just building something like > > that. Imagine what happens when the contacts on that float get old and > > worn; instead of sliding smoothly and making continuous contact, they're > > now making and breaking it - and guess what happens when you do that? > > Sparks. > > Here's some more on that simple system: > > http://www.type2.com/library/misc/vwggauge.htm > > Looks like they were shooting 12 volts right through there. VWs caught > fire for many reasons but I've never heard of a tank fire for this > particular reason, though. =^) I used to own a VW bus, and heard all sorts of horror stories about fires due to lack of oil/seized pistons - but hadn't heard of any fuel explosions either. :) > Diesel is a decent lubricant (which should prevent the contacts > wearing) and it doesn't care about sparks, so I wonder if something > like this wouldn't work for a diesel tank. I was actually thinking that when I wrote my first reply. I still wouldn't want to mess around with sparks there, but it ought to be a bit safer with diesel. I suppose you could always rig the same thing externally, using a tiny-diameter pipe and a stainless rod (TIG welding rod?) that just fits it: | |H| Resistive |H| "slider" |H| | | | | ||| -----------|||------------- Tank ||| | _|_ / \ Float \___/ That seems like it would be safer - and possibly much simpler, since you wouldn't have to worry about how the diesel might interfere (or eat your parts.) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11462|11462|2006-08-14 19:22:36|adam|multi-chine design?|Ok, I like Bren't designs very much, but have been mulling over the idea of a multi-chine boat like Weston Farmer's "Tahitiana". Anybody have any advice about the suitability of such a design for orgami construction? Cheers! Adam| 11463|11463|2006-08-14 21:03:13|tom|Sand Blasting|Hello All Well I tried both compressors together to sand blast and its way to slow not enough volume so then I tried the portable compressor with direct connection to sand blaster and it somewhat kept up but it spits water the whole time your blasting, not good. anyway I got hold of a friend of mine that has a 150 cfm compressor that he will let me use but he said it spit a lot of water also. I even called the local rental outfit and they said there 160 cfm with air dryer still spits a lot of water. The water doesn't seem to effect the siphon type blaster but it does blow the water on the hull while your blasting. I guess the only thing that can be done is wash down the hull with prime wash or a paint thinner after blasting to get the contaminants off. What have others done? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11464|11463|2006-08-14 22:36:10|john kupris|Re: Sand Blasting|Hi Tom, I had this problem with large compressor, that you tow. I adapted the large hose down to regular garage hose size and into milton fittings. I added the drier and the in line water remover for my paint gun and leave it mostly open, you'll get an almost steady stream of water from it but not onto the steel. John tom wrote: Hello All Well I tried both compressors together to sand blast and its way to slow not enough volume so then I tried the portable compressor with direct connection to sand blaster and it somewhat kept up but it spits water the whole time your blasting, not good. anyway I got hold of a friend of mine that has a 150 cfm compressor that he will let me use but he said it spit a lot of water also. I even called the local rental outfit and they said there 160 cfm with air dryer still spits a lot of water. The water doesn't seem to effect the siphon type blaster but it does blow the water on the hull while your blasting. I guess the only thing that can be done is wash down the hull with prime wash or a paint thinner after blasting to get the contaminants off. What have others done? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11465|11462|2006-08-14 23:32:53|peter_d_wiley|Re: multi-chine design?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > Ok, I like Bren't designs very much, but have been mulling over the > idea of a multi-chine boat like Weston Farmer's "Tahitiana". Anybody > have any advice about the suitability of such a design for orgami > construction? Yes - why bother? You take a design done to one philosophy, build it. Take another, build that. Or design a new boat using a synthesis of ideas. I simply can't see the benefit in screwing with a known working design when there are alternatives already available. Not to the extent of trying to get an origami construction plan for a multi chine double ender..... A workboat we used to have was welded steel lapstrake construction. That made a really nice fair hull and the fillet welds would have been pretty easy to do. The amount of weld metal must have been phenomenal tho. Never been tempted to try it, myself. PDW| 11466|11462|2006-08-14 23:53:02|Aaron Williams|Re: multi-chine design?|Gerd's Yago is a multi chine 31' http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ peter_d_wiley wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > Ok, I like Bren't designs very much, but have been mulling over the > idea of a multi-chine boat like Weston Farmer's "Tahitiana". Anybody > have any advice about the suitability of such a design for orgami > construction? Yes - why bother? You take a design done to one philosophy, build it. Take another, build that. Or design a new boat using a synthesis of ideas. I simply can't see the benefit in screwing with a known working design when there are alternatives already available. Not to the extent of trying to get an origami construction plan for a multi chine double ender..... A workboat we used to have was welded steel lapstrake construction. That made a really nice fair hull and the fillet welds would have been pretty easy to do. The amount of weld metal must have been phenomenal tho. Never been tempted to try it, myself. PDW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11467|11467|2006-08-15 01:15:03|jnikadie|Galvanic Series|In "The Elements of Boat Strength" Dave Gerr writes: "Mild steel holds onto its electrons more strongly than marine aluminium ... if these two materials were in contact in seawater, the aluminium would corrode (too fast by half) ..." He also writes: "Make sure the voltage difference between any two metals - in contact in seawater - is less than 200 millivolts. Metals that are less than 200mV apart corrode each other fairly slowly and need little additional protection." But, between these two statements in the book he includes a table for the Galvanic Series, which shows: Aluminium (marine alloys 5086, 5083, 6061): -820mV Mild steel: -790mV Which is only a 30mV difference!!!| 11468|11462|2006-08-15 05:24:57|Gerd|Re: multi-chine design?|You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for the entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami shape is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the darts you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit finer than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for that. There is also no reason why you could not do a double ender.Check out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double enders, very nice too. or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who knows... ;-) Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 11469|11462|2006-08-15 07:53:29|Courtney Thomas|Re: multi-chine design?|When you, or anyone else, implements a Colin Archer, please let the group know, or at least me. Are there any Colin Archer origami plans in existence ? Thank you, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:24 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: multi-chine design? > You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for the > entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is > identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you > loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami shape > is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the darts > you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit finer > than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, > notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for that. > > There is also no reason why you could not do a double ender.Check > out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double > enders, very nice too. > > or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I > always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who > knows... ;-) > > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11470|11470|2006-08-15 10:33:54|goho20022|photo of a red BS|Hi all, some of you might be interested in a photo of a red BS I found in the net. I added it to the photo section (http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/photos/view/8b94?b=1&o=2). You can find the original photo in an article on a the website of a german long distant sailor named Bobby Schenk (http://www.yacht.de/schenk/n002/welt1.html). In fact he is kind of famous among german sailors. In this certain article he writes about typical long distance sailing yachts that he meets on his trip. He states that they are markedly different from the boats you can find at the big industrial boat shows. Anyway theres is no background info about the boat on the photo. Gordon| 11471|11462|2006-08-15 10:52:17|Gerd|Re: multi-chine design?|Well, designing a new boat is a bit too much work to do it just for the drawer, but if you are serious, I would be happy to dicsuss it, does not need to cost a fortune either. Would need to wait a bit though, I am at this moment beginning the design for a bigger version of my YAGO, and that would need to be finished first. But as I said, have a look at Y M Tanton's website www.tantonyachts.com There is are also some of his designs in the galery at boatdesign.net http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/member.php?u=9830 I know he reads this group, and posts here occasionally. His Website is well worth a visit, lots of different and new designs and ideas there. As far as I remember his double enders are single dart designs, like Brent's, with a deep V hull. What I personally would like to do is a multichine-origami, 2 or even 3 darts to get nice rounded ends. Gerd The Yago Project at Http://www.yago-boats.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > > When you, or anyone else, implements a Colin Archer, please > let the group know, or at least me. > > Are there any Colin Archer origami plans in existence ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:24 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: multi-chine design? > > > > You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for the > > entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is > > identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you > > loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami shape > > is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the darts > > you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit finer > > than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, > > notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for that. > > > > There is also no reason why you could not do a double ender.Check > > out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double > > enders, very nice too. > > > > or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I > > always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who > > knows... ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11472|11462|2006-08-15 14:20:03|seeratlas|Re: multi-chine design?|I think Tanton has a double ender up for construction in steel using origami. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > > When you, or anyone else, implements a Colin Archer, please > let the group know, or at least me. > > Are there any Colin Archer origami plans in existence ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:24 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: multi-chine design? > > > > You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for the > > entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is > > identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you > > loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami shape > > is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the darts > > you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit finer > > than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, > > notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for that. > > > > There is also no reason why you could not do a double ender.Check > > out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double > > enders, very nice too. > > > > or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I > > always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who > > knows... ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11473|11462|2006-08-15 15:15:20|yvesmariedetanton|Single-chine design? Origami. Colin Archer.|I have all the above. Please,send your specification as for size, rig and draft. I tend to prefer single chine for chine boats. Especially in Origami building, where the object is to weld as little as possible. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I think Tanton has a double ender up for construction in steel using > origami. > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" > wrote: > > > > When you, or anyone else, implements a Colin Archer, please > > let the group know, or at least me. > > > > Are there any Colin Archer origami plans in existence ? > > > > Thank you, > > Courtney > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerd" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:24 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: multi-chine design? > > > > > > > You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for the > > > entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is > > > identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you > > > loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami shape > > > is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the darts > > > you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit finer > > > than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, > > > notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for that. > > > > > > There is also no reason why you could not do a double ender.Check > > > out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double > > > enders, very nice too. > > > > > > or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I > > > always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who > > > knows... ;-) > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11474|11462|2006-08-15 15:30:06|Jim Douglas|Re: multi-chine design?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > Ok, I like Bren't designs very much, but have been mulling over the > idea of a multi-chine boat like Weston Farmer's "Tahitiana". Anybody > have any advice about the suitability of such a design for orgami > construction? > > Cheers! > Adam > Adam, For double ended tahitiana type boats with bilge keels and possibly do- able in orgami see Yves-Marie Tanton's designs... I personally have spent a lot of time studying his Tonnere, Green Peace and Pengwyn desisgns. Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C.| 11475|11462|2006-08-15 15:51:22|Courtney Thomas|Re: Single-chine design? Origami. Colin Archer.|Do I understand you, yvesmariedetanton, have plans for a double ended Colin Archer steel hull cutter rigged boat of about 35' LOA ? Thank you, C.Thomas origami hull w/cutter rig ----- Original Message ----- From: "yvesmariedetanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Single-chine design? Origami. Colin Archer. > I have all the above. Please,send your specification as for size, rig > and draft. I tend to prefer single chine for chine boats. Especially > in Origami building, where the object is to weld as little as > possible. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I think Tanton has a double ender up for construction in steel using > > origami. > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" > > wrote: > > > > > > When you, or anyone else, implements a Colin Archer, please > > > let the group know, or at least me. > > > > > > Are there any Colin Archer origami plans in existence ? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gerd" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:24 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: multi-chine design? > > > > > > > > > > You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for > the > > > > entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is > > > > identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you > > > > loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami > shape > > > > is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the > darts > > > > you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit > finer > > > > than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, > > > > notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for > that. > > > > > > > > There is also no reason why you could not do a double > ender.Check > > > > out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double > > > > enders, very nice too. > > > > > > > > or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I > > > > always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who > > > > knows... ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 11476|11462|2006-08-15 17:03:21|yvesmariedetanton|Re: Single-chine design? Origami. Colin Archer.|Please check: Photos (new) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > > Do I understand you, yvesmariedetanton, have plans for a double > ended Colin Archer steel hull cutter rigged boat of about 35' LOA ? > > Thank you, > C.Thomas > > > origami hull w/cutter rig > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "yvesmariedetanton" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Single-chine design? Origami. Colin Archer. > > > > I have all the above. Please,send your specification as for size, rig > > and draft. I tend to prefer single chine for chine boats. Especially > > in Origami building, where the object is to weld as little as > > possible. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > I think Tanton has a double ender up for construction in steel using > > > origami. > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > When you, or anyone else, implements a Colin Archer, please > > > > let the group know, or at least me. > > > > > > > > Are there any Colin Archer origami plans in existence ? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Gerd" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:24 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: multi-chine design? > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can do almost any hard chine hull in origami. Actually, for > > the > > > > > entire central part where the darts are, an origami hull is > > > > > identical to a chined hull. the only real difference is that you > > > > > loose a little bit of volume fore and aft because the origami > > shape > > > > > is inside of where the chine would have been. The shorter the > > darts > > > > > you cut, the bigger the difference. Your ends get a little bit > > finer > > > > > than the original chined hull, which changes your coefficients, > > > > > notably the prismatic, and you have to try to gently adjust for > > that. > > > > > > > > > > There is also no reason why you could not do a double > > ender.Check > > > > > out Y M Tanton's website, he has done a couple of origami double > > > > > enders, very nice too. > > > > > > > > > > or, if you really want to your very own contact me directly, I > > > > > always wanted to have a go at an origami Colin Archer, so who > > > > > knows... ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11477|11439|2006-08-15 23:36:44|khooper_fboats|Re: Diesel tank fittings|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > I suppose you could always rig the same thing externally, > using a tiny-diameter pipe and a stainless rod (TIG welding > rod?) that just fits it: Yes indeed and you could put a spring-loaded flag on it like an ice fishing rig. With insignia of your choice. =^) I am slow and I just figured out you can click through on this site posted earlier and get pricing: http://www.wemausa.com/ From looking at that lovely stainless sender I figured it was one of those "if you have to ask you can't afford it" marine industry stainless devices. But that pretty thing is under $80 and the stainless diesel senders are cheaper. Way cool. I'm not making my own, I'm getting these. --Ken| 11478|11439|2006-08-16 00:02:20|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 03:36:18AM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > I suppose you could always rig the same thing externally, > > using a tiny-diameter pipe and a stainless rod (TIG welding > > rod?) that just fits it: > > Yes indeed and you could put a spring-loaded flag on it like an ice > fishing rig. With insignia of your choice. =^) ...and put a scale next to it; the top edge of the flag shows exactly how much fuel you have. Root for the home team _and_ measure your fuel level at the same time - just how much better does life get? :) > >From looking at that lovely stainless sender I figured it was one of > those "if you have to ask you can't afford it" marine industry > stainless devices. But that pretty thing is under $80 and the > stainless diesel senders are cheaper. Way cool. I'm not making my own, > I'm getting these. Now you'll just have to find a way to attach a flag to it... * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11479|11439|2006-08-16 00:08:09|Aaron Williams|Re: Diesel tank fittings|Ben Seams that you would have diesel fumes in the boat or you would have a chance of getting water in the fuel where the rod holding the flag sticks out. "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: On Wed, Aug 16, 2006 at 03:36:18AM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > I suppose you could always rig the same thing externally, > > using a tiny-diameter pipe and a stainless rod (TIG welding > > rod?) that just fits it: > > Yes indeed and you could put a spring-loaded flag on it like an ice > fishing rig. With insignia of your choice. =^) ...and put a scale next to it; the top edge of the flag shows exactly how much fuel you have. Root for the home team _and_ measure your fuel level at the same time - just how much better does life get? :) > >From looking at that lovely stainless sender I figured it was one of > those "if you have to ask you can't afford it" marine industry > stainless devices. But that pretty thing is under $80 and the > stainless diesel senders are cheaper. Way cool. I'm not making my own, > I'm getting these. Now you'll just have to find a way to attach a flag to it... * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net * --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11480|11439|2006-08-16 00:28:14|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Diesel tank fittings|On Tue, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:08:07PM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > Ben > Seams that you would have diesel fumes in the boat or you would have a chance of getting water in the fuel where the rod holding the flag sticks out. That's why I specified "tiny-diameter pipe" - something that's just a mil or two bigger in ID than the OD of the rod in it. The surface tension of water is too high to penetrate something that small without pressure behind it, and there would only be a microscopic surface for the diesel to evaporate from. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://linuxgazette.net *| 11481|11462|2006-08-16 15:47:23|brentswain38|Re: multi-chine design?|Just take the patterns off an existing boat, and build her origami style. This would be a huge improvement in the boat as the original was a total abortion of excessive frameing and structural with thin plating over it.A fire cheif in Berkely California built the framing for one , then asked me to plate it for him .I told him I could build an much better origami hull from scratch in a fraction the time it would take to plate his framework. Other than that I wasn't interested. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "adam" wrote: > > Ok, I like Bren't designs very much, but have been mulling over the > idea of a multi-chine boat like Weston Farmer's "Tahitiana". Anybody > have any advice about the suitability of such a design for orgami > construction? > > Cheers! > Adam > | 11482|11463|2006-08-16 15:51:56|brentswain38|Re: Sand Blasting|Best just to rent the biggest compressor you can find, preferably around 600cfm. Check the inside of the hoses to make sure there is no oil in them. When you hire a sandblaster, ask how big his compressor is. They charge the same hourly rate, but the guy with the 600 cfm compreasor does it in a fraction the time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris wrote: > > Hi Tom, I had this problem with large compressor, that you tow. I adapted the large hose down to regular garage hose size and into milton fittings. I added the drier and the in line water > remover for my paint gun and leave it mostly open, you'll get an almost steady stream of water from it but not onto the steel. > > John > > tom wrote: > Hello All > Well I tried both compressors together to sand blast and its way to slow not enough volume so then I tried the portable compressor with direct connection to sand blaster and it somewhat kept up but it spits water the whole time your blasting, not good. anyway I got hold of a friend of mine that has a 150 cfm compressor that he will let me use but he said it spit a lot of water also. I even called the local rental outfit and they said there 160 cfm with air dryer still spits a lot of water. The water doesn't seem to effect the siphon type blaster but it does blow the water on the hull while your blasting. I guess the only thing that can be done is wash down the hull with prime wash or a paint thinner after blasting to get the contaminants off. > What have others done? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11483|11463|2006-08-16 17:43:54|tom|Re: Sand Blasting|I am borrowing a 150 cfm compressor from a friend and compared to what I was trying 13 cfm , it should work a whole lot better I hope Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 12:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Sand Blasting > Best just to rent the biggest compressor you can find, preferably > around 600cfm. Check the inside of the hoses to make sure there is no > oil in them. When you hire a sandblaster, ask how big his compressor > is. They charge the same hourly rate, but the guy with the 600 cfm > compreasor does it in a fraction the time. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, john kupris wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, I had this problem with large compressor, that you tow. I > adapted the large hose down to regular garage hose size and into > milton fittings. I added the drier and the in line water >> remover for my paint gun and leave it mostly open, you'll get an > almost steady stream of water from it but not onto the steel. >> >> John >> >> tom wrote: >> Hello All >> Well I tried both compressors together to sand blast and its way to > slow not enough volume so then I tried the portable compressor with > direct connection to sand blaster and it somewhat kept up but it > spits water the whole time your blasting, not good. anyway I got hold > of a friend of mine that has a 150 cfm compressor that he will let me > use but he said it spit a lot of water also. I even called the local > rental outfit and they said there 160 cfm with air dryer still spits > a lot of water. The water doesn't seem to effect the siphon type > blaster but it does blow the water on the hull while your blasting. I > guess the only thing that can be done is wash down the hull with > prime wash or a paint thinner after blasting to get the contaminants > off. >> What have others done? >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11484|11484|2006-08-16 18:36:38|tom|Epoxy Paints|Hello All Here in California they lowered the allowed Voc's for paints and primers and about all the older proven coatings for boats have been outlawed even the good old coal tar epoxy and the zinc rich primers--- bummer Anyway after talking to a local industrial paint rep he recommended using macropoxy 646 from sherwin williams and its supposed to work good underwater if its not tinted and above + he recommended a top coat of high solid poly paint for uv resistance above the water line. After reading all the spec sheets on it It seems like it may be the way to go. Its legal and I can buy it local. They sharpened there pencil a bit and will sell it to me for $35 a gallon, cheap compared to some of the marine epoxy's I have bought in the past. Any one have any pro's or cons to this type of paint ? I did get a couple gallons of zinc rich primer for above the waterline. Figure a good coat of zinc primer 3-4 coats of epoxy and 1-2 coats of a top coat paint should get many years of service? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11485|11485|2006-08-17 23:25:26|tallmantravel|Looking for a long-term relationship with tall people?|Here is the best place for tall people and their admirers! Go view their profiles! http://www.geocities.com/tallmantravel/| 11486|11486|2006-08-18 17:41:12|kingsknight4life|Anyone need some extra crew this weekend or any weekend?|Hi everyone I'm back now from the NWT for the summer and would love to get out on the water. Trouble is my Swain 36 is still a "few days" (ie. months) off from being ready to sail, to say the least. Since I'd love to get out on the water and see how these boats sail, I was hoping someone out there wouldn't mind taking myself and my fiance out for a daysail. I always heard that there's lots of boats tied to the dock because the owners have a hard time finding crew. Well here's your chance to get out on the water. While Bev and I are building a boat, our sailing experience is VERY limited but we both are very willing to learn. Any takers? BTW we live in Duncan on Vanc. Island and would be willing to travel to most places on the island. Thnks Rowland & Bev.| 11487|11486|2006-08-18 19:22:55|brentswain38|Re: Anyone need some extra crew this weekend or any weekend?|Rowland I lost your email address, so send me an email. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > > Hi everyone > > I'm back now from the NWT for the summer and would love to get out on > the water. Trouble is my Swain 36 is still a "few days" (ie. months) > off from being ready to sail, to say the least. Since I'd love to get > out on the water and see how these boats sail, I was hoping someone > out there wouldn't mind taking myself and my fiance out for a daysail. > > I always heard that there's lots of boats tied to the dock because the > owners have a hard time finding crew. Well here's your chance to get > out on the water. While Bev and I are building a boat, our sailing > experience is VERY limited but we both are very willing to learn. Any > takers? > > BTW we live in Duncan on Vanc. Island and would be willing to travel > to most places on the island. > > Thnks Rowland & Bev. > | 11488|11488|2006-08-19 09:28:19|stephen hartwick|Nylon graphite bushings|I'm replacing the nylon bushings in the rudder tube (inboard rudder) where it (the rudder post) goes up through the hull to the cock pit floor.The machine shop that turned the bushing thought they were doing me a favor by using the a nylon/graphite material instead of the straight nylon of the original bushing. Any body out there have an opinion on the galvanic action between the mild steel rudder tube and the bushing. Thanks Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11489|11489|2006-08-19 16:37:09|jonathanswef|I've Started|What an inspiration this group is. Brent's concept is a good one. I am at present in the middle of making a tenth scale model of an eighteen foot displacement motor cruiser I have designed using Origami. I have made several card models and spent some time on the lines, getting a fine entry and exit. In your book, Brent, you suggest starting the job by making the fittings and so on; today I completed the bow roller assembly. Stainless being so very expensive I have used mild steel and will get it galvanised. Just got to source the rollers. I have marked out the quadrant for the steering as that is the next job on my list. I am finding that a lot of skills I took for granted 30 years ago and havn't really needed since are in need of revision! Some of my welding is a little ragged...Still, better to practice where if the water gets through we'll just have a little rust to contend with; we won't be having to man the pumps. My design is 18' x 7' x 2'3", has a pilot house with a double and head forward, a pilot berth and a 6' cockpit. Main power will be a 10hp keel cooled dry exhaust kubota, with a steadying sail and large forsail for getting us home or for saving fuel when the wind is right. I shall be using it to potter about the rivers here on the East Coast of England, a bit of coastal hopping and on our English canals, hence the 7' beam. It will be mostly 1/8" mild steel with a 6" wide, long keel. 6" means the sump of the engine will fit in it (thanks Gerd, good idea) and I get a little extra boyancy. As and when I have some pictures and have found out how to, I shall post some. Thanks to you all for the inspiration you have given me and merely through your posts, the encouragement, to get stuck in to this project. Jonathan.| 11490|11489|2006-08-19 19:16:26|Gerd|Re: I've Started|Great news, Jonathan - does not matter at what end you start, as long as you stop just thinking about starting ;-) 18' ? that's not very big, though, for steel.. - what displacement do you come up with? Can we see some plans pleeaase ?? ;-) get us some pictures soon, OK? Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > What an inspiration this group is. Brent's concept is a good one. I > am at present in the middle of making a tenth scale model of an > eighteen foot displacement motor cruiser I have designed using > Origami. I have made several card models and spent some time on the > lines, getting a fine entry and exit. > In your book, Brent, you suggest starting the job by making the > fittings and so on; today I completed the bow roller assembly. > Stainless being so very expensive I have used mild steel and will get > it galvanised. Just got to source the rollers. I have marked out the > quadrant for the steering as that is the next job on my list. > I am finding that a lot of skills I took for granted 30 years ago and > havn't really needed since are in need of revision! Some of my > welding is a little ragged...Still, better to practice where if the > water gets through we'll just have a little rust to contend with; we > won't be having to man the pumps. > My design is 18' x 7' x 2'3", has a pilot house with a double and > head forward, a pilot berth and a 6' cockpit. Main power will be a > 10hp keel cooled dry exhaust kubota, with a steadying sail and large > forsail for getting us home or for saving fuel when the wind is > right. > I shall be using it to potter about the rivers here on the East Coast > of England, a bit of coastal hopping and on our English canals, hence > the 7' beam. It will be mostly 1/8" mild steel with a 6" wide, long > keel. 6" means the sump of the engine will fit in it (thanks Gerd, > good idea) and I get a little extra boyancy. > As and when I have some pictures and have found out how to, I shall > post some. > Thanks to you all for the inspiration you have given me and merely > through your posts, the encouragement, to get stuck in to this > project. > Jonathan. > | 11491|11489|2006-08-20 03:57:15|sae140|Re: I've Started|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanswef" wrote: > > ... today I completed the bow roller assembly. > Stainless being so very expensive I have used mild steel > and will get it galvanised. > Just got to source the rollers. > Jonathan. Hi Jonathan - if you're anywhere near Boston or Wisbech, drop me an email - I can put you in touch with a source of stainless for around £1 per kilo. Suggest using cutting boards (HD Polypropylene) for a roller. Do let me know if you find a galvanizer that will accept small jobs around here - I've got several bits that could do with another dose of zinc. Colin| 11492|11488|2006-08-20 05:58:34|T & D Cain|Re: Nylon graphite bushings|G'day Steve, Any bearing used in a non-marine environment would benefit from the graphite-impregnated nylon (also MoS2 loading) ---- however, it is not advisable to set up a local situation where pitting could occur, if there is likely to be some salts in the air around the bearing. In your case, there is certainty that a chloride-containing moisture will be present in the environment. Use plain Polyurethane or Nylon 11 bushings to avoid the risk. Avoid 'polypenco' and any impregnated synthetics unless you also fit seals which exclude the air and water around the bushing. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of stephen hartwick Sent: Saturday, 19 August 2006 10:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Nylon graphite bushings I'm replacing the nylon bushings in the rudder tube (inboard rudder) where it (the rudder post) goes up through the hull to the cock pit floor.The machine shop that turned the bushing thought they were doing me a favor by using the a nylon/graphite material instead of the straight nylon of the original bushing. Any body out there have an opinion on the galvanic action between the mild steel rudder tube and the bushing. Thanks Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11493|11489|2006-08-20 14:47:39|Michael Burton|Re: I've Started|Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops will have this material in different densities, maybe even some (cheap) offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes smoothly. Michael Prince Rupert, BC --------------------------------- Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11494|11489|2006-08-20 15:28:19|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: I've Started|On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 02:43:44PM -0400, Michael Burton wrote: > Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. > > A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting > material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops > will have this material in different densities, maybe even some > (cheap) offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes > smoothly. Just to second Michael's opinion - I used a 3/4" pad of UHMW under the aluminum mast of my previous boat in order to isolate it from the steel keel, and it worked perfectly (no deformation or wear beyond the initial compression) during the years that I owned the boat after that point. Considering the kind of loading (including some serious point loading) that it had to take in that position, and the ease of shaping it, it's definitely passed my "boat-worthy material" test. For anyone in the Maryland/DC area, I had bought it at Reed Plastics; I recently heard (and was very pleased to hear, since they always had good material, employed knowledgeable people, and gave good service) that they're still in business, although they've changed their name. http://www.piedmontplastics.com/ * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11495|11489|2006-08-20 15:36:05|Gary H. Lucas|Re: I've Started|Michael, You are right about polypropylene degrading quickly in sunlight. However UHMW is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene, not Polyurethane. I used to make machinery for the commercial greenhouse industry so I am real familiar with UV degradation. My machines relied on what looked like bow rollers placed all over a greenhouse, hundreds of them. UHMW degrades quite a bit also. What we found that works better and is cheaper is reprocessed UHMW. UHMW can't be injection molded very well so most parts made from it are machined to shape. This makes lots of scrap and the scrap gets reprocessed. To make the color more uniform they add graphite or other coloring agents and make it a dark grey color. This material holds up in sunlight really well. It is a little hard to find, you need to find a supplier that does machining and reprocessing. Another very sunlight resistant material is Nylatron (Molybdenum Disulphide filled Nylon). It is cheap, strong, self-lubricating and sunlight resistant. It machines very well, better than UHMW. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Burton" To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. > > A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting > material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops will > have this material in different densities, maybe even some (cheap) > offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes smoothly. > > Michael > Prince Rupert, BC > > > > --------------------------------- > Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 11496|11489|2006-08-20 15:45:32|Jonathan Stevens|Re: I've Started|Gerd, The designed displacement at hull draft of 495mm is 1969kg, the hull, keel and engine (89kg mostly below waterline) is 1317kg. My intention was to build decks and pilothouse from ply but I am confident that with 592kg spare displacement I can get away with using steel. If my sums are right (!) an extra 500kg (1/2 ton) will only cost me 75mm (3") extra draft, so I expect to be able to put the boat in the water and ballast her up until she feels suitably stable.I did consider using plywood throughout but I do not get a great deal of pleasure from using epoxy and glass in the quantities I would need to for this project. I know others do, but not me. The simplicity of using steel is just so attractive. Colin, I'm near Aldeburgh in Suffolk but have been known to travel out of County. I'll let you know about galvanising when I've found someone myself! Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11497|11489|2006-08-20 18:46:40|tom|Re: I've Started|Gary We have been useing a black UHMW and it hold up a lot better in uv's. I havnt masterd machineing it yet, tryed once and it didnt turn out smooth. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > Michael, > You are right about polypropylene degrading quickly in sunlight. However > UHMW is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene, not Polyurethane. I > used > to make machinery for the commercial greenhouse industry so I am real > familiar with UV degradation. My machines relied on what looked like bow > rollers placed all over a greenhouse, hundreds of them. UHMW degrades > quite > a bit also. What we found that works better and is cheaper is reprocessed > UHMW. UHMW can't be injection molded very well so most parts made from it > are machined to shape. This makes lots of scrap and the scrap gets > reprocessed. To make the color more uniform they add graphite or other > coloring agents and make it a dark grey color. This material holds up in > sunlight really well. It is a little hard to find, you need to find a > supplier that does machining and reprocessing. > > Another very sunlight resistant material is Nylatron (Molybdenum > Disulphide > filled Nylon). It is cheap, strong, self-lubricating and sunlight > resistant. It machines very well, better than UHMW. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Burton" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:43 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > > >> Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. >> >> A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting >> material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops will >> have this material in different densities, maybe even some (cheap) >> offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes smoothly. >> >> Michael >> Prince Rupert, BC >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11498|11498|2006-08-20 19:47:58|tom|painting sandblasted steel|Hello All Question on painting after sandblasting. One of the local paint reps told me to wash it down with TSP after sandblasting, This makes no since to me because when you rinse the TSP off with water you will have rust bloom on it as soon as it drys, Ive been hereing different stories on what to do. I allways thought sandblasting was the ultimate cleaner just get the dust off and paint, anyone have any words of wisdom on the matter ? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11499|11489|2006-08-21 03:51:34|sae140|Re: I've Started|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Burton wrote: > > Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. > > A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long- lasting material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material Maybe I wasn't being accurate by calling this stuff HD-polypropylene. I was thinking of kitchen chopping boards - whatever they're made from. I've had some of these boards hanging up in a greenhouse for over 5 years without any sign of degradation. A couple (which had been used as clipboards by the PO) have been there for over 10. No damage, although we're not in the same UV league as Florida, I know .... Colin| 11500|11498|2006-08-21 05:46:22|T & D Cain|Re: painting sandblasted steel|An industrial style vacuum cleaner with a tough brush head does the job of removing the casual dust which is part of the process. Just don't touch the surface with your skin before spraying the first coat. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of tom Sent: Monday, 21 August 2006 9:18 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] painting sandblasted steel Hello All Question on painting after sandblasting. One of the local paint reps told me to wash it down with TSP after sandblasting, This makes no since to me because when you rinse the TSP off with water you will have rust bloom on it as soon as it drys, Ive been hereing different stories on what to do. I allways thought sandblasting was the ultimate cleaner just get the dust off and paint, anyone have any words of wisdom on the matter ? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11502|11502|2006-08-21 17:08:25|thomas lee|getting under stringers/ Tom@Tazmann|Amigo, Want under stringers etcetera? Try linseed oil or tongue oil. From Tom --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11503|11489|2006-08-21 20:32:41|Gary H. Lucas|Re: I've Started|Tom, The only time I've gotten it smooth is when using a CNC lathe, where the cutting action is smooth and continuous. If try turning it manually you get grooves and tool marks everywhere you start and stop. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > Gary > We have been useing a black UHMW and it hold up a lot better in uv's. I > havnt masterd machineing it yet, tryed once and it didnt turn out smooth. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:31 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > > >> Michael, >> You are right about polypropylene degrading quickly in sunlight. However >> UHMW is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene, not Polyurethane. I >> used >> to make machinery for the commercial greenhouse industry so I am real >> familiar with UV degradation. My machines relied on what looked like >> bow >> rollers placed all over a greenhouse, hundreds of them. UHMW degrades >> quite >> a bit also. What we found that works better and is cheaper is >> reprocessed >> UHMW. UHMW can't be injection molded very well so most parts made from >> it >> are machined to shape. This makes lots of scrap and the scrap gets >> reprocessed. To make the color more uniform they add graphite or other >> coloring agents and make it a dark grey color. This material holds up in >> sunlight really well. It is a little hard to find, you need to find a >> supplier that does machining and reprocessing. >> >> Another very sunlight resistant material is Nylatron (Molybdenum >> Disulphide >> filled Nylon). It is cheap, strong, self-lubricating and sunlight >> resistant. It machines very well, better than UHMW. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Burton" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:43 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started >> >> >>> Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. >>> >>> A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting >>> material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops >>> will >>> have this material in different densities, maybe even some (cheap) >>> offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes smoothly. >>> >>> Michael >>> Prince Rupert, BC >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > | 11505|11489|2006-08-21 23:29:55|tom|Re: I've Started|Gary I was just talking with a guy who does a lot of work in the milk barns and makes rollers and slides out of UHMW, He told me the only way he found to keep it relativly smooth is to turn it real fast with light cuts but the only problem is it likes to fly out of lathe, gripping the stuff in the chuck is a problem Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > Tom, > The only time I've gotten it smooth is when using a CNC lathe, where the > cutting action is smooth and continuous. If try turning it manually you > get > grooves and tool marks everywhere you start and stop. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:28 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > > >> Gary >> We have been useing a black UHMW and it hold up a lot better in uv's. I >> havnt masterd machineing it yet, tryed once and it didnt turn out smooth. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gary H. Lucas" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started >> >> >>> Michael, >>> You are right about polypropylene degrading quickly in sunlight. >>> However >>> UHMW is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene, not Polyurethane. I >>> used >>> to make machinery for the commercial greenhouse industry so I am real >>> familiar with UV degradation. My machines relied on what looked like >>> bow >>> rollers placed all over a greenhouse, hundreds of them. UHMW degrades >>> quite >>> a bit also. What we found that works better and is cheaper is >>> reprocessed >>> UHMW. UHMW can't be injection molded very well so most parts made from >>> it >>> are machined to shape. This makes lots of scrap and the scrap gets >>> reprocessed. To make the color more uniform they add graphite or other >>> coloring agents and make it a dark grey color. This material holds up >>> in >>> sunlight really well. It is a little hard to find, you need to find a >>> supplier that does machining and reprocessing. >>> >>> Another very sunlight resistant material is Nylatron (Molybdenum >>> Disulphide >>> filled Nylon). It is cheap, strong, self-lubricating and sunlight >>> resistant. It machines very well, better than UHMW. >>> >>> Gary H. Lucas >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michael Burton" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:43 PM >>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started >>> >>> >>>> Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. >>>> >>>> A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting >>>> material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops >>>> will >>>> have this material in different densities, maybe even some (cheap) >>>> offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes smoothly. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> Prince Rupert, BC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos >>>> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11506|11489|2006-08-23 07:30:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: I've Started|Tom, He's right about it being easy to have it fly out of the chuck! It is a soft slippery material that the chuck doesn't grip well, and it will bend a little as you are turning so it has a bad tendency to climb over the tool bit. It's especially bad when the chip suddenly winds up around the part. That's why I said the CNC lathe worked best, it's easy to take a lot of light cuts quickly. We used to pick up the strand with a shop vac and one or two rollers would fill the whole vacuum tank. When you opened the tank and tried to remove the chip the static electricity was so powerful it actually hurt! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > Gary > I was just talking with a guy who does a lot of work in the milk barns and > makes rollers and slides out of UHMW, He told me the only way he found to > keep it relativly smooth is to turn it real fast with light cuts but the > only problem is it likes to fly out of lathe, gripping the stuff in the > chuck is a problem > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > > >> Tom, >> The only time I've gotten it smooth is when using a CNC lathe, where the >> cutting action is smooth and continuous. If try turning it manually you >> get >> grooves and tool marks everywhere you start and stop. >> >> Gary H. Lucas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "tom" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started >> >> >>> Gary >>> We have been useing a black UHMW and it hold up a lot better in uv's. I >>> havnt masterd machineing it yet, tryed once and it didnt turn out >>> smooth. >>> Tom >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Gary H. Lucas" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:31 PM >>> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started >>> >>> >>>> Michael, >>>> You are right about polypropylene degrading quickly in sunlight. >>>> However >>>> UHMW is Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene, not Polyurethane. I >>>> used >>>> to make machinery for the commercial greenhouse industry so I am real >>>> familiar with UV degradation. My machines relied on what looked like >>>> bow >>>> rollers placed all over a greenhouse, hundreds of them. UHMW degrades >>>> quite >>>> a bit also. What we found that works better and is cheaper is >>>> reprocessed >>>> UHMW. UHMW can't be injection molded very well so most parts made from >>>> it >>>> are machined to shape. This makes lots of scrap and the scrap gets >>>> reprocessed. To make the color more uniform they add graphite or other >>>> coloring agents and make it a dark grey color. This material holds up >>>> in >>>> sunlight really well. It is a little hard to find, you need to find a >>>> supplier that does machining and reprocessing. >>>> >>>> Another very sunlight resistant material is Nylatron (Molybdenum >>>> Disulphide >>>> filled Nylon). It is cheap, strong, self-lubricating and sunlight >>>> resistant. It machines very well, better than UHMW. >>>> >>>> Gary H. Lucas >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Michael Burton" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:43 PM >>>> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started >>>> >>>> >>>>> Polypropylene is highly prone to rapid ultra-violet deterioration. >>>>> >>>>> A slightly more expensive, but far more resilient and long-lasting >>>>> material would be UHMW, a polyurethane material. Many machine shops >>>>> will >>>>> have this material in different densities, maybe even some (cheap) >>>>> offcuts. It is very tough, free-machining, and finishes smoothly. >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> Prince Rupert, BC >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------- >>>>> Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > | 11507|11489|2006-08-23 17:24:21|woodcraftssuch|Re: I've Started|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Gary > I was just talking with a guy who does a lot of work in the milk barns and > makes rollers and slides out of UHMW, He told me the only way he found to > keep it relativly smooth is to turn it real fast with light cuts but the > only problem is it likes to fly out of lathe, gripping the stuff in the > chuck is a problem > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > > > > Tom, > > The only time I've gotten it smooth is when using a CNC lathe, where the > > cutting action is smooth and continuous. If try turning it manually you > > get > > grooves and tool marks everywhere you start and stop. > > > > Gary H. Lucas You ought to be able to make it smooth by finising it off in the lathe with various files, sandpaper, etc. Sam| 11508|11489|2006-08-23 20:23:58|Gary H. Lucas|Re: I've Started|Sam, You'd be amazed at how long that could take! UHMW is used as wear strips because it is very abrasion resistant. It also doesn't look very nice after sanding. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodcraftssuch" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 5:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Gary > I was just talking with a guy who does a lot of work in the milk barns and > makes rollers and slides out of UHMW, He told me the only way he found to > keep it relativly smooth is to turn it real fast with light cuts but the > only problem is it likes to fly out of lathe, gripping the stuff in the > chuck is a problem > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: I've Started > > > > Tom, > > The only time I've gotten it smooth is when using a CNC lathe, where the > > cutting action is smooth and continuous. If try turning it manually you > > get > > grooves and tool marks everywhere you start and stop. > > > > Gary H. Lucas You ought to be able to make it smooth by finising it off in the lathe with various files, sandpaper, etc. Sam | 11509|11489|2006-08-24 03:18:28|edward_stoneuk|Re: I've Started UHMW -PE machining|Here is info on machining UHMW-PE http://www.plasticsmag.com/features.asp?fIssue=Sep/Oct-03&aid=3862 Regards, Ted| 11510|11510|2006-08-25 03:19:46|sae140|Incorporating a trawler sheerline.|I've always considered the Colvin Gazelle 'Laughing Boy' as being one of the most attractive cruising boats afloat. I've uploaded a pic to OrigamiBoats2 to see if you share this view. My question to Brent, Gerd and others that have an understanding of the Origami design principles, is whether the Gazelle's characteristic stepped trawler sheerline can easily be incorporated into the standard Swain profile, without making a dog's breakfast of the process. This isn't only a pursuit for improved aesthetics, for it occurs to me that the increased amount of metal at the bow could perhaps be flaired a little to provide extra lift when pitching to counter- act the weight of a junk foremast. If memory serves, there is already one Origami junk ketch in existence with this profile - so how's it done ?? Colin| 11511|11511|2006-08-25 15:51:02|khooper_fboats|Tanton Origami 45 Update|I got more drawings of the 45 today and am really very excited about it. No sense trying to work as I can't keep my mind on it so I am posting a few snippets. Yves has sent very detailed drawings of the hull plating profile and midships section: --The keels are not symmetrical, they have a distinct airfoil shape and are surprisingly thin. They will be quite useless for tankage. =^) I have no idea how I am going to fabricate these. Can't just weld a steel "bag" together and then jack it out to expand it. Has anybody built a foil like that in steel here? The keels are all in 1/4" with 1/2" bottoms. --The hull is 3/16" sides but has large 1/4" triangular slabs welded on to the "legs" of the undeveloped sides; with hull pulled together this essentially gives the boat 1/4" plating below the waterline, 3/16" above. --Big 1/4" chine doublers and massive 1/2" doublers at the stem. There have been concerns posted on this forum that origami boats are weak at the stem, not this one, it is an icebreaker. There are three longitudinals above the chine and four more below. Stringers run long, almost the entire plate. Five substantial webs for keel support. --Mast support appears to be 4" sch 40 pipe topped with a massive arch in solid 1/2" steel under the deck. I am currently petitioning for a fabricated beam structure here instead because I fear the weight of this mast support but not sure if the designer will do it. --Four welded in bulkheads in addition to the mast support --Transom is all in 1/4". Like all of Tanton's boats, she has a really sweet looking ass. Stringers here appear to be only vertical and I wonder if this won't be a size nine bitch to fabricate as well. The stern is very rounded compared to a BS boat. When that thing is half welded up it will probably make an excellent catapult and throw me into the next county with a broken neck if some pulling device lets go. It looks like Yves posted some drawings at boatdesign.net some time ago, these are not the drawings I got today but they are drawings of this 45' boat: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5917/cat/500/ppuser/9830 I hope Tanton will weigh in with any comments he has. Sheezus I am so excited about this. I have enough money to finish paying for the plans but it'll take awhile to have enough to begin the boat. I am going to be impatient and frustrated for a while... =^) --Ken| 11512|11511|2006-08-26 16:04:55|brentswain38|Re: Tanton Origami 45 Update|With my 36 footers having T-boned everything from steel barges to rocks to freighters at hull speed, the stems have been well proven to be anything but weak. You'd best weld those vertical transom stringers in before putting the bend in the transom . Otherwise the heat from weldingthem will cause ridging at each stringer , making each look like a chine.I really don't think you need them. Welding bulkheads in without ridging at each one is tricky. If you can do it without ridging, a light downhand pass with small 6011 is probably the most heat you can put on and still not have serious distortion and a hungry dog look at each bulkhead.There is no guarantee even that will not cause some ridging. You can do a lot of scrounging while you are getting your cash to gether to start building the hull. You can also build a lot of detail before starting the hull, without spending a lot of money or needing a large building site . Call the scrapyard and ask whay they charge for lead. Then ask a friend to call and ask what they pay for lead. Then put an ad in the Buy and sell offering a few cents more than the scrap yard pays , and offer the same to the wheel balancing shops. A friend in the construction industry told me that contractors offer their cement form plywood real cheap in the Buy and Sell after they have finished a job. Then it's just belt sander work and a bit of paint fron the recycling depot , free.It can all be sanded and painted before you build the boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I got more drawings of the 45 today and am really very excited about > it. No sense trying to work as I can't keep my mind on it so I am > posting a few snippets. Yves has sent very detailed drawings of the > hull plating profile and midships section: > > --The keels are not symmetrical, they have a distinct airfoil shape > and are surprisingly thin. They will be quite useless for tankage. =^) > I have no idea how I am going to fabricate these. Can't just weld a > steel "bag" together and then jack it out to expand it. Has anybody > built a foil like that in steel here? The keels are all in 1/4" with > 1/2" bottoms. > > --The hull is 3/16" sides but has large 1/4" triangular slabs welded > on to the "legs" of the undeveloped sides; with hull pulled together > this essentially gives the boat 1/4" plating below the waterline, > 3/16" above. > > --Big 1/4" chine doublers and massive 1/2" doublers at the stem. There > have been concerns posted on this forum that origami boats are weak at > the stem, not this one, it is an icebreaker. There are three > longitudinals above the chine and four more below. Stringers run long, > almost the entire plate. Five substantial webs for keel support. > > --Mast support appears to be 4" sch 40 pipe topped with a massive arch > in solid 1/2" steel under the deck. I am currently petitioning for a > fabricated beam structure here instead because I fear the weight of > this mast support but not sure if the designer will do it. > > --Four welded in bulkheads in addition to the mast support > > --Transom is all in 1/4". Like all of Tanton's boats, she has a really > sweet looking ass. Stringers here appear to be only vertical and I > wonder if this won't be a size nine bitch to fabricate as well. The > stern is very rounded compared to a BS boat. When that thing is half > welded up it will probably make an excellent catapult and throw me > into the next county with a broken neck if some pulling device lets go. > > It looks like Yves posted some drawings at boatdesign.net some time > ago, these are not the drawings I got today but they are drawings of > this 45' boat: > > http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5917/cat/500/ppuser/9830 > > I hope Tanton will weigh in with any comments he has. > > Sheezus I am so excited about this. I have enough money to finish > paying for the plans but it'll take awhile to have enough to begin the > boat. I am going to be impatient and frustrated for a while... =^) > > --Ken > | 11513|11511|2006-08-26 21:45:39|David A. Frantz|Re: Tanton Origami 45 Update|Interesting about the bulk head welding issue and the related ridging. I'm wondering if the use of a MIG welder has been tried to lower the heat input into the weld joint? There is no way to get completely away from weld distortion, unless you apply after the fact manipulation of the welded object. Mind you I have no boat building experience. Learning a lot though at the various sites. Thanks Dave brentswain38 wrote: > With my 36 footers having T-boned everything from steel barges to > rocks to freighters at hull speed, the stems have been well proven to > be anything but weak. > You'd best weld those vertical transom stringers in before putting > the bend in the transom . Otherwise the heat from weldingthem will > cause ridging at each stringer , making each look like a chine.I > really don't think you need them. > Welding bulkheads in without ridging at each one is tricky. If you > can do it without ridging, a light downhand pass with small 6011 is > probably the most heat you can put on and still not have serious > distortion and a hungry dog look at each bulkhead.There is no > guarantee even that will not cause some ridging. > You can do a lot of scrounging while you are getting your cash to > gether to start building the hull. You can also build a lot of detail > before starting the hull, without spending a lot of money or needing a > large building site . Call the scrapyard and ask whay they charge for > lead. Then ask a friend to call and ask what they pay for lead. Then > put an ad in the Buy and sell offering a few cents more than the scrap > yard pays , and offer the same to the wheel balancing shops. > A friend in the construction industry told me that contractors offer > their cement form plywood real cheap in the Buy and Sell after they > have finished a job. Then it's just belt sander work and a bit of > paint fron the recycling depot , free.It can all be sanded and painted > before you build the boat. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > I got more drawings of the 45 today and am really very excited about > > it. No sense trying to work as I can't keep my mind on it so I am > > posting a few snippets. Yves has sent very detailed drawings of the > > hull plating profile and midships section: > > > > --The keels are not symmetrical, they have a distinct airfoil shape > > and are surprisingly thin. They will be quite useless for tankage. =^) > > I have no idea how I am going to fabricate these. Can't just weld a > > steel "bag" together and then jack it out to expand it. Has anybody > > built a foil like that in steel here? The keels are all in 1/4" with > > 1/2" bottoms. > > > > --The hull is 3/16" sides but has large 1/4" triangular slabs welded > > on to the "legs" of the undeveloped sides; with hull pulled together > > this essentially gives the boat 1/4" plating below the waterline, > > 3/16" above. > > > > --Big 1/4" chine doublers and massive 1/2" doublers at the stem. There > > have been concerns posted on this forum that origami boats are weak at > > the stem, not this one, it is an icebreaker. There are three > > longitudinals above the chine and four more below. Stringers run long, > > almost the entire plate. Five substantial webs for keel support. > > > > --Mast support appears to be 4" sch 40 pipe topped with a massive arch > > in solid 1/2" steel under the deck. I am currently petitioning for a > > fabricated beam structure here instead because I fear the weight of > > this mast support but not sure if the designer will do it. > > > > --Four welded in bulkheads in addition to the mast support > > > > --Transom is all in 1/4". Like all of Tanton's boats, she has a really > > sweet looking ass. Stringers here appear to be only vertical and I > > wonder if this won't be a size nine bitch to fabricate as well. The > > stern is very rounded compared to a BS boat. When that thing is half > > welded up it will probably make an excellent catapult and throw me > > into the next county with a broken neck if some pulling device lets go. > > > > It looks like Yves posted some drawings at boatdesign.net some time > > ago, these are not the drawings I got today but they are drawings of > > this 45' boat: > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5917/cat/500/ppuser/9830 > > > > > I hope Tanton will weigh in with any comments he has. > > > > Sheezus I am so excited about this. I have enough money to finish > > paying for the plans but it'll take awhile to have enough to begin the > > boat. I am going to be impatient and frustrated for a while... =^) > > > > --Ken > > > > | 11514|11511|2006-08-27 19:00:35|khooper_fboats|Re: Tanton Origami 45 Update|Hi David, I was going to let one of the welding experts handle this one but perhaps they are all out welding stuff. =^ ) It is done with intermittent welds kept short (I would keep the welds to one or 1.5") and spaced well apart, and allowed to cool between welds. Distortion should be minimal if done this way and can be ground off. I don't know how much help a MIG would be. --Ken --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Interesting about the bulk head welding issue and the related > ridging. I'm wondering if the use of a MIG welder has been tried to > lower the heat input into the weld joint? There is no way to get > completely away from weld distortion, unless you apply after the fact > manipulation of the welded object. > > Mind you I have no boat building experience. Learning a lot though at > the various sites. | 11515|11515|2006-08-27 19:38:40|Aaron|Sloop vs Cutter|I might have the chance for a 36' cutter rigged boat that I could strip and use for parts. What would be the difference if any for mounting the Mast on the BS36 Whould the their be any structual changes? Aaron| 11516|11511|2006-08-27 20:07:02|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: welded bulkheads|Ya, I'd say heed Brent's words about welding in any kind of bulkhead -- I had someone else do some welding on my boat and mistakenly had him weld the anchor-well plate (which is essentially a mini-bulkhead, if you will)on the inside of the hull (Brent had already welded it inside the anchor-well, which is all it needed). In it's position there is no need to weld on both sides where it meets the hull, and now I see why it was a bad idea. After the steel of the hull skin cooled, it tightened up, flattening what was once a curved section of the bow, and forming a ridge where the plate meets the hull. It looks...well it's going to bug me until I hammer it back out again and try to minimize the effect. When I get back from my damnebly boatless journey in the Caribbean (never go here without a boat), I'll take a picture of it to show you all this fine reminder to me of the trials and tribulations of over-welding where it's not needed. While it has not harmed anything structurall y, it's nice to avoid doing it in the first place! I'm going to chalk it up to "first-timer's syndrome" and leave it at that. Alex boatless :-( in Kingstown, St. Vincent and the Grendadines, West Indies ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:00 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tanton Origami 45 Update > With my 36 footers having T-boned everything from steel barges to > rocks to freighters at hull speed, the stems have been well proven to > be anything but weak. > You'd best weld those vertical transom stringers in before putting > the bend in the transom . Otherwise the heat from weldingthem will > cause ridging at each stringer , making each look like a chine.I > really don't think you need them. > Welding bulkheads in without ridging at each one is tricky. If you > can do it without ridging, a light downhand pass with small 6011 is > probably the most heat you can put on and still not have serious > distortion and a hungry dog look at each bulkhead.There is no > guarantee even that will not cause some ridging. > You can do a lot of scrounging while you are getting your cash to > gether to start building the hull. You can also build a lot of detail > before starting the hull, without spending a lot of money or > needing a > large building site . Call the scrapyard and ask whay they charge for > lead. Then ask a friend to call and ask what they pay for lead. Then > put an ad in the Buy and sell offering a few cents more than the scrap > yard pays , and offer the same to the wheel balancing shops. > A friend in the construction industry told me that contractors offer > their cement form plywood real cheap in the Buy and Sell after they > have finished a job. Then it's just belt sander work and a bit of > paint fron the recycling depot , free.It can all be sanded and painted > before you build the boat. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > I got more drawings of the 45 today and am really very excited about > > it. No sense trying to work as I can't keep my mind on it so I am > > posting a few snippets. Yves has sent very detailed drawings of the > > hull plating profile and midships section: > > > > --The keels are not symmetrical, they have a distinct airfoil shape > > and are surprisingly thin. They will be quite useless for > tankage. =^) > > I have no idea how I am going to fabricate these. Can't just > weld a > > steel "bag" together and then jack it out to expand it. Has anybody > > built a foil like that in steel here? The keels are all in 1/4" with > > 1/2" bottoms. > > > > --The hull is 3/16" sides but has large 1/4" triangular slabs welded > > on to the "legs" of the undeveloped sides; with hull pulled together > > this essentially gives the boat 1/4" plating below the waterline, > > 3/16" above. > > > > --Big 1/4" chine doublers and massive 1/2" doublers at the stem. > There> have been concerns posted on this forum that origami boats > are weak at > > the stem, not this one, it is an icebreaker. There are three > > longitudinals above the chine and four more below. Stringers run > long,> almost the entire plate. Five substantial webs for keel > support.> > > --Mast support appears to be 4" sch 40 pipe topped with a > massive arch > > in solid 1/2" steel under the deck. I am currently petitioning > for a > > fabricated beam structure here instead because I fear the weight of > > this mast support but not sure if the designer will do it. > > > > --Four welded in bulkheads in addition to the mast support > > > > --Transom is all in 1/4". Like all of Tanton's boats, she has a > really> sweet looking ass. Stringers here appear to be only > vertical and I > > wonder if this won't be a size nine bitch to fabricate as well. The > > stern is very rounded compared to a BS boat. When that thing is half > > welded up it will probably make an excellent catapult and throw me > > into the next county with a broken neck if some pulling device > lets go. > > > > It looks like Yves posted some drawings at boatdesign.net some time > > ago, these are not the drawings I got today but they are > drawings of > > this 45' boat: > > > > > http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5917/cat/500/ppuser/9830 > > > > I hope Tanton will weigh in with any comments he has. > > > > Sheezus I am so excited about this. I have enough money to finish > > paying for the plans but it'll take awhile to have enough to > begin the > > boat. I am going to be impatient and frustrated for a while... =^) > > > > --Ken > > > > > > > | 11517|11517|2006-08-28 15:45:59|seeratlas|Trip to Whidbey :)|Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about in "the area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into Whidbey this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you as I can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far you are along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I understand Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest of you wayward sinners :) hehehehe. Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there and get a chance to meet you and say hi. Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it runs, I should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I can pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to it. Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send me an email at seeratlas@... and we can trade cells etc.. Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in progress and put some faces with these online names. seer| 11518|11518|2006-08-29 00:40:05|tom|BS 26 snadblasting progress|Hello All Well I came to the conclusion that a siphon type sand blaster is not worth beans on a bigger job, to slow and not enough velocity on the sand, wasted 300 pounds of sand just on the for deck about 20 square feet at most. the compressor that I borrowed was spiting out water and oil on the surface even though it has air dryer and a double filter system. I bought an older Quincy compressor with an 18 hp kohler engine and a 110 pound pressure pot blaster , running it with a 50 ft 1/2" hose to a water separator filter then a 25 ft 1/2" hose to the blaster keeps the air dry and clean, seems to work ok does about a square foot a minuet and it takes about 20 minuets to go threw a 100 pound sack of sand and close to a gallon of gas for the compressor. sure aint cheap. It seemed like it worked best running between 80 and 90 psi at the sandblaster going higher pressure didn't make it go any faster. Now that I have it set up and working I am hopping to get after it this Saturday and see how much I can get done in a full day. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11519|11518|2006-08-29 07:03:50|cirejay|Re: BS 26 snadblasting progress|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > I bought an older Quincy compressor with an 18 hp kohler engine and a 110 pound pressure pot blaster , running it with a 50 ft 1/2" hose to a water separator filter then a 25 ft 1/2" hose to the blaster keeps the air dry and clean, seems to work ok does about a square foot a minuet and it takes about 20 minuets to go threw a 100 pound sack of sand and close to a gallon of gas for the compressor. sure aint cheap. Tom, I think I've found your problem, it's the "minuets" on the deck of your boat. Stop dancing and start sandblasting:-) Thanks for the typo, I got a great laugh out of picturing you doing the minuet on the deck of your boat, in full sandblasting gear. eric S/V Nebaras PS I really do mean this in a good spirited way.| 11520|11511|2006-08-29 11:12:40|rhko47|Re: welded bulkheads|Somewhere I saw a drawing suggesting that the outside of the deck to cabin side joint could be filled and countoured with epoxy, mixed with cabosil or some such, after welding is completed and before painting. This would improve the appearance, reduce the amount of grinding needed and keep water away from any minute crevices in the joint. Is this a bad idea? If not, the same technique could be useful for the anchor well plate to hull joint with only tack welds to hold it in place, being sealed by the epoxy.--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > Ya, I'd say heed Brent's words about welding in any kind of bulkhead -- I had someone else do some welding on my boat and mistakenly had him weld the anchor-well plate (which is essentially a mini-bulkhead, if you will)on the inside of the hull (Brent had already welded it inside the anchor-well, which is all it needed). In it's position there is no need to weld on both sides where it meets the hull, and now I see why it was a bad idea. After the steel of the hull skin cooled, it tightened up, flattening what was once a curved section of the bow, and forming a ridge where the plate meets the hull. It looks...well it's going to bug me until I hammer it back out again and try to minimize the effect. When I get back from my damnebly boatless journey in the Caribbean (never go here without a boat), I'll take a picture of it to show you all this fine reminder to me of the trials and tribulations of over-welding where it's not needed. While it has not harmed anything structurall > y, it's nice to avoid doing it in the first place! I'm going to chalk it up to "first-timer's syndrome" and leave it at that. > > Alex > > boatless :-( in Kingstown, > St. Vincent and the Grendadines, West Indies > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:00 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tanton Origami 45 Update > > > With my 36 footers having T-boned everything from steel barges to > > rocks to freighters at hull speed, the stems have been well proven to > > be anything but weak. > > You'd best weld those vertical transom stringers in before putting > > the bend in the transom . Otherwise the heat from weldingthem will > > cause ridging at each stringer , making each look like a chine.I > > really don't think you need them. > > Welding bulkheads in without ridging at each one is tricky. If you > > can do it without ridging, a light downhand pass with small 6011 is > > probably the most heat you can put on and still not have serious > > distortion and a hungry dog look at each bulkhead.There is no > > guarantee even that will not cause some ridging. > > You can do a lot of scrounging while you are getting your cash to > > gether to start building the hull. You can also build a lot of detail > > before starting the hull, without spending a lot of money or > > needing a > > large building site . Call the scrapyard and ask whay they charge for > > lead. Then ask a friend to call and ask what they pay for lead. Then > > put an ad in the Buy and sell offering a few cents more than the scrap > > yard pays , and offer the same to the wheel balancing shops. > > A friend in the construction industry told me that contractors offer > > their cement form plywood real cheap in the Buy and Sell after they > > have finished a job. Then it's just belt sander work and a bit of > > paint fron the recycling depot , free.It can all be sanded and painted > > before you build the boat. > > Brent | 11521|11510|2006-08-29 13:11:41|Gerd|Re: Incorporating a trawler sheerline.|Colin, just come back from a week sailing and was offline.. so: A broken sheerline in an origami-pattern is no problem as such, but if you want to have tumblehome for this part, you would need to either cut a dart from the top (a la Greg Elliott) or add this as a sepereate part (like on Yago). Flared bows is more tricky, I have played around with that on models, and must say that - at least without cutting additional darts - it seem impossible or impracticable to make the sheet pass from convex to concave curves without some sort of ugly break... I have not managed to get anything that looks nice. As for pitching due to the additional weight of the mast on the bow, this is more complicated than that. Moving weight (mast and additional steel) to the bow, displacement and all other things being equal, _requires_ that you move another part of your weight aft so as to have your center of gravity again in vertical with your center of bouyancy. This will not make the boat pitch at the bow because of more weight forward, but rather increase pitching / hobbyhorsing overall because of the inertia of your weights that are now less centered than before, meaning this does not concern the bow shape alone but the stern as well. One way to compensate for that would be to increase the lonngitudinal distribution of your displaced volume, by raising the prismatic. A boat with a low prismatic and weights that are not centered will pitch a lot. But, raising and flairing the bows near the deck level does not really help, and adding more steel will only add to the problem of having to compensate aft and thus spreading the weights even further apart. So, in practical terms, the forward mast hand the weight compensation aft would probably be felt, but to what extend is difficult to judge. Best consult with Brent to see how he would expect this to influence the movements... although, having seen the word "junk" here before, I have an idea of what he will tell you ;-) Gerd http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > I've always considered the Colvin Gazelle 'Laughing Boy' as being > one of the most attractive cruising boats afloat. I've uploaded > a pic to OrigamiBoats2 to see if you share this view. > > My question to Brent, Gerd and others that have an understanding > of the Origami design principles, is whether the Gazelle's > characteristic stepped trawler sheerline can easily be incorporated > into the standard Swain profile, without making a dog's breakfast > of the process. > > This isn't only a pursuit for improved aesthetics, for it occurs > to me that the increased amount of metal at the bow could perhaps > be flaired a little to provide extra lift when pitching to counter- > act the weight of a junk foremast. > > If memory serves, there is already one Origami junk ketch in > existence with this profile - so how's it done ?? > > Colin > | 11522|11522|2006-08-29 20:57:27|Gary|Dry Exhaust & Yanmar|I had heard that there may be some difficulty converting a Yanmar 3hm 27 hp to dry exhaust. Since I have one, has anyone else converted a Yanmar and did you have any problems. Thanks... Gary| 11523|11523|2006-08-30 10:27:51|carlvolkwein|Welding galvanized.|I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting has anyone tried this yet?| 11524|11523|2006-08-30 11:06:01|David A. Frantz|Re: Welding galvanized.|HI Carl; Yep there is a problem with this. The issue is welding Zinc coated steel is extremely hazzardous. There are a range of reactions to the fumes such welding produces. Surf the internet to fine links to Zinc flu and other issues related to the material. This answers your question about where the Zinc goes, it literally turns to vapour. Zinc melts somewhere around 800 deg. F., since liquid steel, along with the arc temp is many times that you have a big problem and literally burn off the Zinc. Now that is not to say that you can't weld Zinc plated steel just that you need to know what is going on and take safe preperations. In the end though I would not reccomend welding Zinc plate if you have alternatives. Dave carlvolkwein wrote: > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > has anyone tried this yet? > > | 11525|11523|2006-08-30 11:40:14|gschnell|Re: Welding galvanized.|A word of caution: Don't weld galvanized steel. The released fumes are toxic. (Perhaps you are aware of this) Gord I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting has anyone tried this yet? carlvolkwein wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable | 11526|11523|2006-08-30 16:25:17|brentswain38|Re: Welding galvanized.|I used all hot galvanized steel for my decks , cabin and cockpit. A face mask hooked up to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose with the end upwind in a 25 knot wind,and a check valve in the mask eliminated any danger.The same rig was great for inside painting. 6011 burns right thru zinc. There is some prosity but not a problem. Wire feed or low hydrogen rod doesn't work worth a shit. Stainless rod works OK. Zinc is not deadly. It will give you flu like symptoms for a few days if you get to much of it, but it clears up in a week. Zinc deficiencies cause prostate problems.Viruses can't reproduce in a zinc rich environment Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > A word of caution: Don't weld galvanized steel. The released fumes are > toxic. (Perhaps you are aware of this) > Gord > > > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > has anyone tried this yet? > > carlvolkwein wrote: > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > Encoding: quoted-printable > | 11527|11517|2006-08-30 16:38:14|brentswain38|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and Sechelt. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about in "the > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into Whidbey > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you as I > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far you are > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I understand > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest of you > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there and get > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it runs, I > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I can > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to it. > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send me an > email at seeratlas@... and we can trade cells etc.. > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in progress > and put some faces with these online names. > > seer > | 11528|11511|2006-08-30 16:40:40|brentswain38|Re: welded bulkheads|With ridging it would take a lot of filler and it would be in an extremely vulnerable area with anchors banging around. It wouldn't take more than a day to get knocked off. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rhko47" wrote: > > Somewhere I saw a drawing suggesting that the outside of the deck to > cabin side joint could be filled and countoured with epoxy, mixed with > cabosil or some such, after welding is completed and before painting. > This would improve the appearance, reduce the amount of grinding > needed and keep water away from any minute crevices in the joint. Is > this a bad idea? If not, the same technique could be useful for the > anchor well plate to hull joint with only tack welds to hold it in > place, being sealed by the epoxy.--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > > > Ya, I'd say heed Brent's words about welding in any kind of bulkhead > -- I had someone else do some welding on my boat and mistakenly had > him weld the anchor-well plate (which is essentially a mini-bulkhead, > if you will)on the inside of the hull (Brent had already welded it > inside the anchor-well, which is all it needed). In it's position > there is no need to weld on both sides where it meets the hull, and > now I see why it was a bad idea. After the steel of the hull skin > cooled, it tightened up, flattening what was once a curved section of > the bow, and forming a ridge where the plate meets the hull. It > looks...well it's going to bug me until I hammer it back out again and > try to minimize the effect. When I get back from my damnebly boatless > journey in the Caribbean (never go here without a boat), I'll take a > picture of it to show you all this fine reminder to me of the trials > and tribulations of over-welding where it's not needed. While it has > not harmed anything structurall > > y, it's nice to avoid doing it in the first place! I'm going to > chalk it up to "first-timer's syndrome" and leave it at that. > > > > Alex > > > > boatless :-( in Kingstown, > > St. Vincent and the Grendadines, West Indies > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > Date: Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:00 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Tanton Origami 45 Update > > > > > With my 36 footers having T-boned everything from steel barges to > > > rocks to freighters at hull speed, the stems have been well proven to > > > be anything but weak. > > > You'd best weld those vertical transom stringers in before putting > > > the bend in the transom . Otherwise the heat from weldingthem will > > > cause ridging at each stringer , making each look like a chine.I > > > really don't think you need them. > > > Welding bulkheads in without ridging at each one is tricky. If you > > > can do it without ridging, a light downhand pass with small 6011 is > > > probably the most heat you can put on and still not have serious > > > distortion and a hungry dog look at each bulkhead.There is no > > > guarantee even that will not cause some ridging. > > > You can do a lot of scrounging while you are getting your cash to > > > gether to start building the hull. You can also build a lot of detail > > > before starting the hull, without spending a lot of money or > > > needing a > > > large building site . Call the scrapyard and ask whay they charge for > > > lead. Then ask a friend to call and ask what they pay for lead. Then > > > put an ad in the Buy and sell offering a few cents more than the scrap > > > yard pays , and offer the same to the wheel balancing shops. > > > A friend in the construction industry told me that contractors offer > > > their cement form plywood real cheap in the Buy and Sell after they > > > have finished a job. Then it's just belt sander work and a bit of > > > paint fron the recycling depot , free.It can all be sanded and painted > > > before you build the boat. > > > Brent > | 11529|11510|2006-08-30 18:06:01|seeratlas|Re: Incorporating a trawler sheerline.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > As for pitching due to the additional weight of the mast on the bow, > this is more complicated than that. > Moving weight (mast and additional steel) to the bow, displacement > and all other things being equal, _requires_ that you move another > part of your weight aft so as to have your center of gravity again > in vertical with your center of bouyancy. This will not make the > boat pitch at the bow because of more weight forward, but rather > increase pitching / hobbyhorsing overall because of the inertia of > your weights that are now less centered than before, meaning this > does not concern the bow shape alone but the stern as well. > Gerd, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying...In my experience its the boat with the most weight to the center and lightest bow that jumps up and down all over the place as you sail head into the waves. Additional weight spread to the ends seems to me to put more inertia out there meaning it moves slower tending to bang thru the waves as opposed to flying up and over. Course i could be wrong..or maybe we're saying the same thing in different ways. Heavy bows make for a wetter boat, but that's because it doesn't rise and fall so much so the waves, if large enough tend to come right on aboard...As in all things yachty...there is a middle ground which would be most desirable. I hear this alot about concentrating all the weight in the center...but on the boats I've been on where it was spread around, but 'balanced' the motion in a seaway was alot more comfortable, maybe not as fast, but at some point I'm always willing to sacrifice a fraction of a knot for less cookie tossing down below :) seer| 11530|11517|2006-08-30 18:24:19|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and Sechelt. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about in "the > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into Whidbey > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you as I > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far you are > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I understand > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest of you > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there and get > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it runs, I > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I can > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to it. > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send me an > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in progress > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > seer > > > | 11531|11523|2006-08-30 20:14:15|tom|Re: Welding galvanized.|Yes most of the galvanizing burns off little mixes with weld, what I would recommend is grind clean where you're going to weld, it will weld a lot better and be stronger welds. I do this on anything structural Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "carlvolkwein" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding galvanized. > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > has anyone tried this yet? > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 11532|7117|2006-08-30 21:03:13|khooper_fboats|Lattice Masts|Was doing web searches to see if anybody had done an entire boat in galvanized steel and came across another site by a home builder with some information on steel lattice masts, about which I've asked here before: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~oceanspan/buildingnikki.htm Incomplete but interesting. --Ken| 11533|11510|2006-08-30 23:10:32|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Incorporating a trawler sheerline.|On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 10:02:40PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > As for pitching due to the additional weight of the mast on the bow, > > this is more complicated than that. > > Moving weight (mast and additional steel) to the bow, displacement > > and all other things being equal, _requires_ that you move another > > part of your weight aft so as to have your center of gravity again > > in vertical with your center of bouyancy. This will not make the > > boat pitch at the bow because of more weight forward, but rather > > increase pitching / hobbyhorsing overall because of the inertia of > > your weights that are now less centered than before, meaning this > > does not concern the bow shape alone but the stern as well. > > > Gerd, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying...In my > experience its the boat with the most weight to the center and > lightest bow that jumps up and down all over the place as you sail > head into the waves. Additional weight spread to the ends seems to me > to put more inertia out there meaning it moves slower tending to bang > thru the waves as opposed to flying up and over. My personal experience is that weight in the ends makes a boat hobbyhorse - the more weight, the worse. Weight in one end but not the other is the worst case of all: it can start an oscillation that will pitchpole a boat in short order. I had to unceremoniously *yank* a (rather large) friend of mine off the bow while sailing a 21' Venture on the Chesapeake - an autumn squall whipped up a nasty short sea, he was screwing around with the jib instead of just yanking it down, and the bow kept diving progressively deeper every time we pitched, with an increasing corkscrew motion that had the boat rolling and literally falling over onto her side as she recovered. It didn't take any more than 30 seconds to get from sailing well to burying the bow and slamming down like a brick, but the boat recovered almost as soon as I got him into the cockpit. I also had that lesson reinforced while I was working up along the north coast of the Dominican Republic from Luperon to Cabo Samana in the OSTAR boat I had at the time (I'll admit that it took me at least several days to figure it out, though.) Any extra weight in the ends would make you pound like crazy while going into those seas - which also meant slower progress, which meant pounding for a longer time, etc. After I got religious about stowing all heavy weight stuff "low and centered", the passages actually became relatively pleasant and a good bit faster. > Course i could be wrong..or maybe we're saying the same thing in > different ways. Heavy bows make for a wetter boat, but that's because > it doesn't rise and fall so much so the waves, if large enough tend to > come right on aboard...As in all things yachty...there is a middle > ground which would be most desirable. I've never experienced this myself, but I can theoretically imagine a boat that's too light in the ends - it would probably have a very quick pitching motion. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11534|11510|2006-08-31 01:26:21|Gerd|Re: Incorporating a trawler sheerline.|seer, we are indeed saying the same thing in different ways, and it's our old "weight in the tops" discussion all over again ;-) the inertia of the weight works boh ways, a hevier bow will begin to rise (and the stern to sink) slower on a wave, but once in movement it will continue to do so, like a pendulum. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > > > > As for pitching due to the additional weight of the mast on the bow, > > this is more complicated than that. > > Moving weight (mast and additional steel) to the bow, displacement > > and all other things being equal, _requires_ that you move another > > part of your weight aft so as to have your center of gravity again > > in vertical with your center of bouyancy. This will not make the > > boat pitch at the bow because of more weight forward, but rather > > increase pitching / hobbyhorsing overall because of the inertia of > > your weights that are now less centered than before, meaning this > > does not concern the bow shape alone but the stern as well. > > > Gerd, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying...In my > experience its the boat with the most weight to the center and > lightest bow that jumps up and down all over the place as you sail > head into the waves. Additional weight spread to the ends seems to me > to put more inertia out there meaning it moves slower tending to bang > thru the waves as opposed to flying up and over. > > Course i could be wrong..or maybe we're saying the same thing in > different ways. Heavy bows make for a wetter boat, but that's because > it doesn't rise and fall so much so the waves, if large enough tend to > come right on aboard...As in all things yachty...there is a middle > ground which would be most desirable. I hear this alot about > concentrating all the weight in the center...but on the boats I've > been on where it was spread around, but 'balanced' the motion in a > seaway was alot more comfortable, maybe not as fast, but at some point > I'm always willing to sacrifice a fraction of a knot for less cookie > tossing down below :) > > seer > | 11535|11535|2006-08-31 01:49:43|Jim Douglas|Rescue of 36 foot Colvin Designed Saugeen Witch|Now I know this site is geared specifically for folded steel techniques which advance steel boat construction but I am a lurker who believes in steel who needs a bit of help. Hopefully this is not too far off topic for you all to consider...... The boat is built of steel and has been abandoned in mid re-fit. I have had a good look at her and knowing that steel being what it is feel that I could complete the re-fit and see her sail again. Some inputs would be appreciated: a) ph # of a boat mover. b) recomendations as to re-fit sites hopefully close to Parksville (my aging parents reside there)....keep in mind I need power and the immediate services of a sand blaster/painter. In this regard, I am already in touch with the French Creek Marina Chaps but would appreciate secondry quotes to keep them honest!! re: moving/sand blasting/painting/storage. c) I would like to contact Evan Shaler about welding and related issues for the boat....If any one knows how to contact him and can put me in the know...well thank you for that. Re: Alex Christie: Alex, I believe I have your 1st DVD re Boat Building; at least I paid the first $50 to recieve it!!....You have since threaten to release a second DVD re: Fitting Out and I am shortly going to need this.....Now do I send you a Mr. Borden as advance incentive or what? Come on Alex!!!Go!Go!Go! Do you have any further news/updates on this?????| 11536|11523|2006-08-31 13:35:41|Carl Volkwein|Re: Welding galvanized.|Thanks Brent, I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around here, I wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to paint the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not grind that part just before welding, say a one inch strip around theedge? Carl. brentswain38 wrote: I used all hot galvanized steel for my decks , cabin and cockpit. A face mask hooked up to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose with the end upwind in a 25 knot wind,and a check valve in the mask eliminated any danger.The same rig was great for inside painting. 6011 burns right thru zinc. There is some prosity but not a problem. Wire feed or low hydrogen rod doesn't work worth a shit. Stainless rod works OK. Zinc is not deadly. It will give you flu like symptoms for a few days if you get to much of it, but it clears up in a week. Zinc deficiencies cause prostate problems.Viruses can't reproduce in a zinc rich environment Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > A word of caution: Don't weld galvanized steel. The released fumes are > toxic. (Perhaps you are aware of this) > Gord > > > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > has anyone tried this yet? > > carlvolkwein wrote: > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > Encoding: quoted-printable > --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11537|11535|2006-08-31 13:55:59|brentswain38|Re: Rescue of 36 foot Colvin Designed Saugeen Witch|Evan can be reached at evanmoonjunk@... Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > Now I know this site is geared specifically for folded steel techniques > which advance steel boat construction but I am a lurker who believes in > steel who needs a bit of help. Hopefully this is not too far off topic > for you all to consider...... > > The boat is built of steel and has been abandoned in mid re-fit. I > have had a good look at her and knowing that steel being what it is > feel that I could complete the re-fit and see her sail again. > > Some inputs would be appreciated: > > a) ph # of a boat mover. > > b) recomendations as to re-fit sites hopefully close to Parksville (my > aging parents reside there)....keep in mind I need power and the > immediate services of a sand blaster/painter. In this regard, I am > already in touch with the French Creek Marina Chaps but would > appreciate secondry quotes to keep them honest!! re: moving/sand > blasting/painting/storage. > > c) I would like to contact Evan Shaler about welding and related issues > for the boat....If any one knows how to contact him and can put me in > the know...well thank you for that. > > Re: Alex Christie: Alex, I believe I have your 1st DVD re Boat > Building; at least I paid the first $50 to recieve it!!....You have > since threaten to release a second DVD re: Fitting Out and I am shortly > going to need this.....Now do I send you a Mr. Borden as advance > incentive or what? Come on Alex!!!Go!Go!Go! Do you have any further > news/updates on this????? > | 11538|11523|2006-08-31 14:00:39|brentswain38|Re: Welding galvanized.|Actually, grinding a 1/4 inch strip would be all that's needed . Breathing air from 24 feet away is safe even in a flat calm. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Thanks Brent, > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around here, I wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to paint the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not grind that part just before welding, say a one inch > strip around theedge? Carl. > > brentswain38 wrote: > I used all hot galvanized steel for my decks , cabin and cockpit. A > face mask hooked up to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose with the end > upwind in a 25 knot wind,and a check valve in the mask eliminated any > danger.The same rig was great for inside painting. 6011 burns right > thru zinc. There is some prosity but not a problem. Wire feed or low > hydrogen rod doesn't work worth a shit. Stainless rod works OK. > Zinc is not deadly. It will give you flu like symptoms for a few days > if you get to much of it, but it clears up in a week. > Zinc deficiencies cause prostate problems.Viruses can't reproduce in > a zinc rich environment > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > > > A word of caution: Don't weld galvanized steel. The released fumes are > > toxic. (Perhaps you are aware of this) > > Gord > > > > > > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > > has anyone tried this yet? > > > > carlvolkwein wrote: > > > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > > Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11539|11535|2006-08-31 15:25:49|kingsknight4life|Re: Rescue of 36 foot Colvin Designed Saugeen Witch|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Evan can be reached at evanmoonjunk@... > Brent > Well I see Brent already gave you Evan's e-mail so I'll try and help with some of the rest. For moving a boat I'd go with Galen at Westhaul Ph. 722-7270. I've used him to move my boat and so have others on this group. You may find someone cheaper as your "Witch" has a single keel I assume. So check local boat movers with "conventional" boat trailers as well. For painintg and blasting I'd check around as there are many choices on the island, for both blasting and painting. I chose a local guy here in Duncan to blast but I'm on vacation and don't have the info. handy. Painitng I'm going with Wasser coatings. Good luck with your re-fit Rowland| 11540|11523|2006-08-31 16:28:24|colin edley|Re: Welding galvanized.|welding galvenised steel is a good way to make yourself infertile and cause other health problems, do it in a well ventilated area. tom wrote: Yes most of the galvanizing burns off little mixes with weld, what I would recommend is grind clean where you're going to weld, it will weld a lot better and be stronger welds. I do this on anything structural Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "carlvolkwein" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding galvanized. > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > has anyone tried this yet? > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11541|11523|2006-08-31 20:18:10|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Welding galvanized.|For a few hundred you could get a hooka pump, hose and low presure regulator and be safe even on the inside in a corner. Breathable air pumps are oilless so you don't get poisened by the oil and low presher. the regulators are made for the low presher. Check E-bay might find a steel. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Thanks Brent, > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around here, I wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to paint the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not grind that part just before welding, say a one inch > strip around theedge? Carl. | 11542|11523|2006-08-31 22:10:11|Aaron Williams|Re: Welding galvanized.|Be sure and ware a half mask with purple HEPA filters and everthing will be just fine. North or 3m make good ones. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: Actually, grinding a 1/4 inch strip would be all that's needed . Breathing air from 24 feet away is safe even in a flat calm. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > Thanks Brent, > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around here, I wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to paint the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not grind that part just before welding, say a one inch > strip around theedge? Carl. > > brentswain38 wrote: > I used all hot galvanized steel for my decks , cabin and cockpit. A > face mask hooked up to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose with the end > upwind in a 25 knot wind,and a check valve in the mask eliminated any > danger.The same rig was great for inside painting. 6011 burns right > thru zinc. There is some prosity but not a problem. Wire feed or low > hydrogen rod doesn't work worth a shit. Stainless rod works OK. > Zinc is not deadly. It will give you flu like symptoms for a few days > if you get to much of it, but it clears up in a week. > Zinc deficiencies cause prostate problems.Viruses can't reproduce in > a zinc rich environment > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > > > A word of caution: Don't weld galvanized steel. The released fumes are > > toxic. (Perhaps you are aware of this) > > Gord > > > > > > I have a question about welding hot diped galvanized steel. > > > > When hot diped galvanized steel is welded with a stick, where > > does the coating go, does it combine with the slag, or does it > > go into the steel itself? I was thinking of cutting pieces of > > high strenth steel, and having them hot dip galvanized before welding > > then just zink primering the welded parts before painting. > > Does anyone see a problem with this? Most of the boat would > > already be coated inside and out rite after welding, and before painting > > has anyone tried this yet? > > > > carlvolkwein wrote: > > > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > > Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11543|11523|2006-09-01 13:53:19|brentswain38|Re: Welding galvanized.|With overpopulation being THE cause of environmental breakdown, we could use more inferility. It may even spare some from having to build bigger boats. I just bought a oiless hookah, what a great way to dive . Beats the hell out of scuba. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > For a few hundred you could get a hooka pump, hose and low presure > regulator and be safe even on the inside in a corner. Breathable air > pumps are oilless so you don't get poisened by the oil and low presher. > the regulators are made for the low presher. Check E-bay might find a > steel. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > wrote: > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around here, I > wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to paint > the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not grind > that part just before welding, say a one inch > > strip around theedge? Carl. > | 11544|11535|2006-09-01 14:56:57|Michael|Re: Rescue of 36 foot Colvin Designed Saugeen Witch|Anybody know the heritage of the *Saugeen Witch*? I built a couple Colvin boats back in Ontario (both Gazelles, in aluminum) and the name suggests an Ontario origin, after the river of the same name. Just curious... Michael| 11545|11511|2006-09-01 16:41:00|Richard Hillside|Re: welded bulkheads|Hello, my first post adn so on.. Its not what you weld but the patience you use when welding, my buoys regularly weld 20-70 meters a day, when we get to tough pleases a whole days welding can amount to 25 centimetres (under a foot ) with a support team of 2, all we weld is aluminium and patience is the key, if you have high powered multi pulse sync welders as we you cant weld any more than with a plain non pulse old Mig converted to aluminium, all you get is a better seam but speed is in the foramens head and to control it is a art. --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11546|11546|2006-09-01 17:13:20|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah|Years ago I was on a Japanese fishing boat in the middle of the North Pacific. At one point it ran over some nets and fouled the prop. They had a hookah setup on board, but it had a handpowered pump (a glorified bike pump). All they needed was a non-attention deficit disorder suffering pump operator and a diver. Has anyone seen one of these pumps? I wouldn't mind having one around for prop issues, etc. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Friday, September 1, 2006 9:52 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding galvanized. > With overpopulation being THE cause of environmental breakdown, we > could use more inferility. It may even spare some from having to build > bigger boats. > I just bought a oiless hookah, what a great way to dive . Beats the > hell out of scuba. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > For a few hundred you could get a hooka pump, hose and low > presure > > regulator and be safe even on the inside in a corner. Breathable > air > > pumps are oilless so you don't get poisened by the oil and low > presher. > > the regulators are made for the low presher. Check E-bay might > find a > > steel. > > > > Jon > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around > here, I > > wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to > paint > > the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not > grind > > that part just before welding, say a one inch > > > strip around theedge? Carl. > > > > > > > > | 11547|11546|2006-09-01 18:34:53|seeratlas|Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah|I wonder who's leaving these net "traps" out in the ocean? lol, I once hit one about six foot square 400 miles or so off the coast of Oregon...talk about lottery odds.....LOL. On the hookah thing, its a tradeoff like most things. The one I saw used an inflatable tube, like an innertube, into which sat the hookah motor driven compressor. I think that one came with 6o 'something foot hoses and in 'calm' water you could drag it around so for reefs or other shallow places or when working underneath the boat in water, might prove real useful. If you need mobility, or want to dive in places where there is surf or surge, then hard to avoid tanks etc. One thing about it, the hookah rig stored took up GOBS less space than a tank setup/onboard compressor etc. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Years ago I was on a Japanese fishing boat in the middle of the North Pacific. At one point it ran over some nets and fouled the prop. They had a hookah setup on board, but it had a handpowered pump (a glorified bike pump). All they needed was a non-attention deficit disorder suffering pump operator and a diver. Has anyone seen one of these pumps? I wouldn't mind having one around for prop issues, etc. > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Friday, September 1, 2006 9:52 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding galvanized. > > > With overpopulation being THE cause of environmental breakdown, we > > could use more inferility. It may even spare some from having to build > > bigger boats. > > I just bought a oiless hookah, what a great way to dive . Beats the > > hell out of scuba. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > wrote: > > > > > > For a few hundred you could get a hooka pump, hose and low > > presure > > > regulator and be safe even on the inside in a corner. Breathable > > air > > > pumps are oilless so you don't get poisened by the oil and low > > presher. > > > the regulators are made for the low presher. Check E-bay might > > find a > > > steel. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around > > here, I > > > wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to > > paint > > > the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not > > grind > > > that part just before welding, say a one inch > > > > strip around theedge? Carl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11548|11546|2006-09-01 18:38:53|steve rankin|Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah|seeratlas wrote: > I wonder who's leaving these net "traps" out in the ocean? lol, I > once hit one about six foot square 400 miles or so off the coast of > Oregon...talk about lottery odds.....LOL. > > On the hookah thing, its a tradeoff like most things. The one I saw > used an inflatable tube, like an innertube, into which sat the hookah > motor driven compressor. I think that one came with 6o 'something > foot hoses and in 'calm' water you could drag it around so for reefs > or other shallow places or when working underneath the boat in water, > might prove real useful. If you need mobility, or want to dive in > places where there is surf or surge, then hard to avoid tanks etc. > > One thing about it, the hookah rig stored took up GOBS less space > than a tank setup/onboard compressor etc. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > Years ago I was on a Japanese fishing boat in the middle of the > North Pacific. At one point it ran over some nets and fouled the > prop. They had a hookah setup on board, but it had a handpowered pump > (a glorified bike pump). All they needed was a non-attention deficit > disorder suffering pump operator and a diver. Has anyone seen one of > these pumps? I wouldn't mind having one around for prop issues, etc. > > > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > Date: Friday, September 1, 2006 9:52 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding galvanized. > > > > > With overpopulation being THE cause of environmental breakdown, we > > > could use more inferility. It may even spare some from having to > build > > > bigger boats. > > > I just bought a oiless hookah, what a great way to dive . Beats > the > > > hell out of scuba. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > For a few hundred you could get a hooka pump, hose and low > > > presure > > > > regulator and be safe even on the inside in a corner. > Breathable > > > air > > > > pumps are oilless so you don't get poisened by the oil and low > > > presher. > > > > the regulators are made for the low presher. Check E-bay might > > > find a > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Volkwein > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around > > > here, I > > > > wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to > > > paint > > > > the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not > > > grind > > > > that part just before welding, say a one inch > > > > > strip around theedge? Carl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/2006 > > I have one if anyone is interested. Needs a face mask and hose. Steve| 11549|11517|2006-09-01 18:49:38|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of packing a piece american-style. Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. Alex the unarmed Canadian ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about > in "the > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > Whidbey > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you > as I > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far > you are > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > understand > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest > of you > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there > and get > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > runs, I > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I > can > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to it. > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send > me an > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in > progress > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > | 11550|11517|2006-09-01 21:20:58|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Thats bad news :( tho if a college coed can somehow completely disappear without a trace down there, you know something isn't quite right in parts of the Caribs these days. AS for packing heat american style, without opening up the can of worms that is debated constantly in these kinds of forums, I personally know of one soon to be builder who spent years trying to figure out how to incorporate a Barret 50 and associated gear into his design, then one day the answer just occurred to him in one stunning revelation. The average AK toting would-be pirate is likely in for a very nasty shock should he/they come after the 'wrong' cruiser. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of packing a piece american-style. > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. > > Alex > the unarmed Canadian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and > > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about > > in "the > > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > > Whidbey > > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you > > as I > > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far > > you are > > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > > understand > > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest > > of you > > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there > > and get > > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > > runs, I > > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I > > can > > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to it. > > > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send > > me an > > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in > > progress > > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11551|11517|2006-09-01 23:51:20|David A. Frantz|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only do you have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can actually sink his boat if needed. One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection is a built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent out the transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some compressed gas of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think that it would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that ends up trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. The wierd thing here is that I think about these sorts of things and I haven't even gotten a boat yet. Haven't even considered the hows and whys yet. In my mind though it will be a well defended ship. Dave seeratlas wrote: > Thats bad news :( tho if a college coed can somehow completely > disappear without a trace down there, you know something isn't quite > right in parts of the Caribs these days. AS for packing heat > american style, without opening up the can of worms that is debated > constantly in these kinds of forums, I personally know of one soon to > be builder who spent years trying to figure out how to incorporate a > Barret 50 and associated gear into his design, then one day the > answer just occurred to him in one stunning revelation. The average > AK toting would-be pirate is likely in for a very nasty shock should > he/they come after the 'wrong' cruiser. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , ALEX CHRISTIE > wrote: > > > > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look > me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my > apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of > packing a piece american-style. > > > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. > Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. > > > > Alex > > the unarmed Canadian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > > > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and > > > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about > > > in "the > > > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > > > Whidbey > > > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you > > > as I > > > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far > > > you are > > > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > > > understand > > > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest > > > of you > > > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there > > > and get > > > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > > > runs, I > > > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I > > > can > > > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to > it. > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send > > > me an > > > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in > > > progress > > > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11552|11517|2006-09-02 01:06:44|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)/boat defense|My all time favorite is Brent's handy dandy scare the crap out of em device :) If I remember right you take your average plastic coke container, put two wires thru the bottom and then fill it half way with water, and submerse the wires holding it so the 'top' is down, then hook to electric power, the electrolysis gives you a sweet mixture of hydrogen /oxygen, you pull it up, cap it, haul it to the spreaders, and take the wires to a source near your bunk. Come midnight and you feel someone board your boat, you reach out of the bunk, touch the wires to an electric source, here the 'KABOOM' then in the morning go up and clean up all the brown stuff on the deck rflmao :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only do you > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can actually sink > his boat if needed. > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection is a > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent out the > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some compressed gas > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think that it > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that ends up > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. > > The wierd thing here is that I think about these sorts of things and I > haven't even gotten a boat yet. Haven't even considered the hows and > whys yet. In my mind though it will be a well defended ship. > > Dave > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > Thats bad news :( tho if a college coed can somehow completely > > disappear without a trace down there, you know something isn't quite > > right in parts of the Caribs these days. AS for packing heat > > american style, without opening up the can of worms that is debated > > constantly in these kinds of forums, I personally know of one soon to > > be builder who spent years trying to figure out how to incorporate a > > Barret 50 and associated gear into his design, then one day the > > answer just occurred to him in one stunning revelation. The average > > AK toting would-be pirate is likely in for a very nasty shock should > > he/they come after the 'wrong' cruiser. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , ALEX CHRISTIE > > wrote: > > > > > > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look > > me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my > > apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of > > packing a piece american-style. > > > > > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. > > Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. > > > > > > Alex > > > the unarmed Canadian > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > > > > > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and > > > > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about > > > > in "the > > > > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > > > > Whidbey > > > > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > > > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you > > > > as I > > > > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far > > > > you are > > > > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > > > > understand > > > > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest > > > > of you > > > > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there > > > > and get > > > > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > > > > runs, I > > > > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I > > > > can > > > > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send > > > > me an > > > > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in > > > > progress > > > > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11553|11546|2006-09-02 01:40:48|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah|The place I came to use Hooka s was gold dredging in the NW. All the 3" intake and bigger small scale gold dredges have them running off the same motor that runs the high presher water pump. They are made to run hundreds of hours and some are made for going deep or two people at one time. New ones can be gotten from most prospecting supply shops or on E- bay new or used. If you have a inboard you just need to figure out how to mount it and pully it to run at the right RPM and a belt tentioner so it isn't working when not in use. Jon| 11554|11522|2006-09-02 02:16:58|al weiman|Re: Dry Exhaust & Yanmar|----- Original Message ---- From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:53:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust & Yanmar I had heard that there may be some difficulty converting a Yanmar 3hm 27 hp to dry exhaust. Since I have one, has anyone else converted a Yanmar and did you have any problems. Thanks... Gary Hi hi, I've changed a Yanmar 2qm-20 to a dry exhaust. It's been alright so far, Quite a bit warmer in the engine room. I'll install a fan to pull the air out. Should talk to the Yanmar folks about it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11555|11522|2006-09-02 02:24:54|steve rankin|Re: Dry Exhaust & Yanmar|al weiman wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:53:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust & Yanmar > > I had heard that there may be some difficulty converting a Yanmar 3hm > 27 hp to dry exhaust. Since I have one, has anyone else converted a > Yanmar and did you have any problems. > > Thanks... Gary > Hi hi, > > I've changed a Yanmar 2qm-20 to a dry exhaust. It's been alright so > far, Quite a bit warmer in the engine room. I'll install a fan to pull > the air out. Should talk to the Yanmar folks about it. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/2006 > > My 3qm has been dry exhaust since new without problems. 3000 hrs. Steve| 11556|11546|2006-09-02 08:10:15|Courtney Thomas|Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah|How much do you want for it please, and where must it be shipped from ? Thank you, C.Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve rankin" To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah > seeratlas wrote: > > > I wonder who's leaving these net "traps" out in the ocean? lol, I > > once hit one about six foot square 400 miles or so off the coast of > > Oregon...talk about lottery odds.....LOL. > > > > On the hookah thing, its a tradeoff like most things. The one I saw > > used an inflatable tube, like an innertube, into which sat the hookah > > motor driven compressor. I think that one came with 6o 'something > > foot hoses and in 'calm' water you could drag it around so for reefs > > or other shallow places or when working underneath the boat in water, > > might prove real useful. If you need mobility, or want to dive in > > places where there is surf or surge, then hard to avoid tanks etc. > > > > One thing about it, the hookah rig stored took up GOBS less space > > than a tank setup/onboard compressor etc. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , wrote: > > > > > > Years ago I was on a Japanese fishing boat in the middle of the > > North Pacific. At one point it ran over some nets and fouled the > > prop. They had a hookah setup on board, but it had a handpowered pump > > (a glorified bike pump). All they needed was a non-attention deficit > > disorder suffering pump operator and a diver. Has anyone seen one of > > these pumps? I wouldn't mind having one around for prop issues, etc. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > Date: Friday, September 1, 2006 9:52 am > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding galvanized. > > > > > > > With overpopulation being THE cause of environmental breakdown, we > > > > could use more inferility. It may even spare some from having to > > build > > > > bigger boats. > > > > I just bought a oiless hookah, what a great way to dive . Beats > > the > > > > hell out of scuba. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > For a few hundred you could get a hooka pump, hose and low > > > > presure > > > > > regulator and be safe even on the inside in a corner. > > Breathable > > > > air > > > > > pumps are oilless so you don't get poisened by the oil and low > > > > presher. > > > > > the regulators are made for the low presher. Check E-bay might > > > > find a > > > > > steel. > > > > > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , Carl Volkwein > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brent, > > > > > > > > > > > > I mite have a hard time finding a 25 knot wind around > > > > here, I > > > > > wonder if a fan of some type would work? Also, I would have to > > > > paint > > > > > the part that was burned away by the welding anyhow, so why not > > > > grind > > > > > that part just before welding, say a one inch > > > > > > strip around theedge? Carl. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Free Edition. > >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/2006 > > > > > I have one if anyone is interested. Needs a face mask and hose. > > Steve > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 11557|11522|2006-09-02 12:39:40|al weiman|Re: Dry Exhaust & Yanmar|That's good news, all should be fine then, happy sailing ----- Original Message ---- From: steve rankin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 1, 2006 11:24:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust & Yanmar al weiman wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:53:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust & Yanmar > > I had heard that there may be some difficulty converting a Yanmar 3hm > 27 hp to dry exhaust. Since I have one, has anyone else converted a > Yanmar and did you have any problems. > > Thanks... Gary > Hi hi, > > I've changed a Yanmar 2qm-20 to a dry exhaust. It's been alright so > far, Quite a bit warmer in the engine room. I'll install a fan to pull > the air out. Should talk to the Yanmar folks about it. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >----------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -- > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/2006 > > My 3qm has been dry exhaust since new without problems. 3000 hrs. Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11558|11517|2006-09-02 14:12:02|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Hi, Alex - On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 06:49:33PM -0400, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look me > up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my apartment > two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of packing a piece > american-style. > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. > Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. St. Vincent has been unsafe for a long time now. When I was down in Puerto Rico (late 90s), there was a murder case down there where the local government was trying to blame the two American cruisers who were caught up in the middle of it, and pedaling as hard as they could to avoid any sort of an actual investigation. Pretty much everyone I knew decided to bypass the place - and this included many non-USians. > Alex > the unarmed Canadian I cruised without a firearm for seven years, but I carried a spring-loaded, lead-weighted attitude (calm, cool, pleasant, polite, and absolutely merciless) during that time. Criminals and panhandlers left me alone, even in the few places where some of the other cruisers got hassled. Unless someone is just out to kill you (and is good enough that they'll give no warning), you can usually stay on top of the escalation curve; at that point, you can either prevent the problem - or have a knife to the idiot's throat before he gets to doing the physical bit. [sigh] They used to offer escalation-control training to firemen, nurses, cops, and social workers. For some stupid reason, it's "not popular" anymore - despite the thousands/millions of problems it's prevented. I guess it's not flashy or dramatic enough, and Hollywood can't make a movie out of it... good communication skills usually aren't. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 11559|11517|2006-09-02 14:23:36|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:44:53PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only do you > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can actually sink > his boat if needed. > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection is a > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent out the > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some compressed gas > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think that it > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that ends up > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. You might want to consider that this notional "pirate" will now be *so* pissed off that he'll have a "reason" to do anything he wants to you - although he'll be "sorry" later. I knew a guy down south who had a 15-20 million CP aircraft landing light mounted in his main salon and pointed up the companionway, with the switch by his bunk. Turning that thing on not only scared any intruders away but also put them at a huge disadvantage in a night fight - in part, by preventing them from seeing what kind of cards he was holding. Not that he'd ever mentioned having to use it, but that sounded like a pretty good strategy to me. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11560|1007|2006-09-02 14:42:13|brentswain38|36 footer for sale|One of my 36 footers , built in Sausalito , is for sale . Having done many trips to Mexico and back , she is loaded with gear. She is a single keeler with a wheelhouse. The owner can be reached at PEAUREN@...| 11561|11517|2006-09-02 14:55:37|brentswain38|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Living in a metal boat with Vault like hatches and ports too small to crawl thru gives one a worry free night's sleep. You can crack the hatches for air if you have a retainer which requires one to close the hatch in order to take it off. Many boat pirate reports I've heard of involved waking to find a pirate in the cabin. Locking the hatrches properly ( if they are properly built to enable one to do this, rare enough on many boats) seems like an obvious good idea. Brent gamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Thats bad news :( tho if a college coed can somehow completely > disappear without a trace down there, you know something isn't quite > right in parts of the Caribs these days. AS for packing heat > american style, without opening up the can of worms that is debated > constantly in these kinds of forums, I personally know of one soon to > be builder who spent years trying to figure out how to incorporate a > Barret 50 and associated gear into his design, then one day the > answer just occurred to him in one stunning revelation. The average > AK toting would-be pirate is likely in for a very nasty shock should > he/they come after the 'wrong' cruiser. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE > wrote: > > > > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look > me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my > apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of > packing a piece american-style. > > > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. > Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. > > > > Alex > > the unarmed Canadian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: seeratlas > > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > > > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and > > > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about > > > in "the > > > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > > > Whidbey > > > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you > > > as I > > > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far > > > you are > > > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > > > understand > > > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest > > > of you > > > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there > > > and get > > > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > > > runs, I > > > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I > > > can > > > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to > it. > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send > > > me an > > > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in > > > progress > > > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11562|11517|2006-09-02 14:57:46|brentswain38|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)/boat defense|Fill it completely with water, and you'll have pure oxygen and no nitrogen, much louder. Brent In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > My all time favorite is Brent's handy dandy scare the crap out of em > device :) If I remember right you take your average plastic coke > container, put two wires thru the bottom and then fill it half way > with water, and submerse the wires holding it so the 'top' is down, > then hook to electric power, the electrolysis gives you a sweet > mixture of hydrogen /oxygen, you pull it up, cap it, haul it to the > spreaders, and take the wires to a source near your bunk. Come > midnight and you feel someone board your boat, you reach out of the > bunk, touch the wires to an electric source, here the 'KABOOM' then > in the morning go up and clean up all the brown stuff on the deck > rflmao :) > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only do > you > > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can actually > sink > > his boat if needed. > > > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection > is a > > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent > out the > > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some compressed > gas > > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think that it > > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that ends up > > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. > > > > The wierd thing here is that I think about these sorts of things > and I > > haven't even gotten a boat yet. Haven't even considered the hows > and > > whys yet. In my mind though it will be a well defended ship. > > > > Dave > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > Thats bad news :( tho if a college coed can somehow completely > > > disappear without a trace down there, you know something isn't > quite > > > right in parts of the Caribs these days. AS for packing heat > > > american style, without opening up the can of worms that is > debated > > > constantly in these kinds of forums, I personally know of one > soon to > > > be builder who spent years trying to figure out how to > incorporate a > > > Barret 50 and associated gear into his design, then one day the > > > answer just occurred to him in one stunning revelation. The > average > > > AK toting would-be pirate is likely in for a very nasty shock > should > > > he/they come after the 'wrong' cruiser. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , ALEX CHRISTIE > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can > look > > > me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my > > > apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of > > > packing a piece american-style. > > > > > > > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. > > > Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > the unarmed Canadian > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: seeratlas > > > > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > > > > > > > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "brentswain38" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti > and > > > > > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "seeratlas" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and > about > > > > > in "the > > > > > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > > > > > Whidbey > > > > > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th > of > > > > > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of > you > > > > > as I > > > > > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how > far > > > > > you are > > > > > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > > > > > understand > > > > > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the > rest > > > > > of you > > > > > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm > there > > > > > and get > > > > > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > > > > > runs, I > > > > > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on > I > > > > > can > > > > > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can > get to > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please > send > > > > > me an > > > > > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works > in > > > > > progress > > > > > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11563|11546|2006-09-02 14:58:37|brentswain38|Re: Welding galvanized - Now hookah|Skip the float ring . Put it in your dinghy. Much simpler , quicker and more compact. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > The place I came to use Hooka s was gold dredging in the NW. All the 3" > intake and bigger small scale gold dredges have them running off the > same motor that runs the high presher water pump. They are made to run > hundreds of hours and some are made for going deep or two people at one > time. New ones can be gotten from most prospecting supply shops or on E- > bay new or used. If you have a inboard you just need to figure out how > to mount it and pully it to run at the right RPM and a belt tentioner > so it isn't working when not in use. > > Jon > | 11564|11522|2006-09-02 15:00:43|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust & Yanmar|I can't see any problem. Run the engine water thru your exhuast manifod, then to a header tank, then back to the skeg, via a hotwater tank if you wish. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, al weiman wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:53:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust & Yanmar > > I had heard that there may be some difficulty converting a Yanmar 3hm > 27 hp to dry exhaust. Since I have one, has anyone else converted a > Yanmar and did you have any problems. > > Thanks... Gary > Hi hi, > > I've changed a Yanmar 2qm-20 to a dry exhaust. It's been alright so far, Quite a bit warmer in the engine room. I'll install a fan to pull the air out. Should talk to the Yanmar folks about it. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11565|11517|2006-09-03 05:31:48|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Brent , not sure what you mean by 'retainer'...can you elaborate? The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), strong, lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open in all four directions. I'm not sure of what you mean by a retainer that would require a hatch to be completely closed before it could be removed, but I'd sure like to hear about it. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Living in a metal boat with Vault like hatches and ports too small to > crawl thru gives one a worry free night's sleep. You can crack the > hatches for air if you have a retainer which requires one to close the > hatch in order to take it off. Many boat pirate reports I've heard of > involved waking to find a pirate in the cabin. Locking the hatrches > properly ( if they are properly built to enable one to do this, rare > enough on many boats) seems like an obvious good idea. > Brent > > > > gamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Thats bad news :( tho if a college coed can somehow completely > > disappear without a trace down there, you know something isn't quite > > right in parts of the Caribs these days. AS for packing heat > > american style, without opening up the can of worms that is debated > > constantly in these kinds of forums, I personally know of one soon to > > be builder who spent years trying to figure out how to incorporate a > > Barret 50 and associated gear into his design, then one day the > > answer just occurred to him in one stunning revelation. The average > > AK toting would-be pirate is likely in for a very nasty shock should > > he/they come after the 'wrong' cruiser. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE > > wrote: > > > > > > I'll be back from the gun-totin' Caribbean by Friday, so can look > > me up then too. After getting robbed here at gun-point in my > > apartment two days ago, I'm sort of starting to see the point of > > packing a piece american-style. > > > > > > Cruisers might want to think twice about cruising this area (St. > > Vincent), tho I think I would have been safer on the water. > > > > > Alex > > > the unarmed Canadian > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: seeratlas > > > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:17 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > > > > > I'll see if I can't come hunt you down :) > > > > seer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'll probably be on Comox for the weekend, then Lasquetti and > > > > Sechelt.> Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Gord? Alex? Brent? whomever else is going to be up and about > > > > in "the > > > > > > area" the next couple of weeks, I'm supposedly flying into > > > > Whidbey > > > > > > this evening and will be up there until at least the 10th of > > > > > > September. If at all possible I'd love to meet as many of you > > > > as I > > > > > > can, see Gord's boat and anyone else's regardless of how far > > > > you are > > > > > > along. I'd say I'd like to buy everyone a drink, but I > > > > understand > > > > > > Brent doesn't imbibe, :) BUT, that still stands for the rest > > > > of you > > > > > > wayward sinners :) hehehehe. > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex, I'd like to pick up a copy of the dvd's while i'm there > > > > and get > > > > > > a chance to meet you and say hi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming I can get my 'special' car out of storage and it > > > > runs, I > > > > > > should have plenty of mobility so if anything is going on I > > > > can > > > > > > pretty much swap my schedule around to make sure I can get to > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone that has the time or inclination to meet, please send > > > > me an > > > > > > email at seeratlas@ and we can trade cells etc.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance and I look forward to seeing some works in > > > > progress > > > > > > and put some faces with these online names. > > > > > > > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11566|11517|2006-09-03 10:07:36|khooper_fboats|Plastics & Portlights|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), strong, > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open in all > four directions. What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know it is supposed to be much stronger than acrylic and significantly softer (and more expensive) as well. But I was doing some research into it and Lexan seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when it comes to portlights. What I was seeing (I can probably find the numbers again if needed) is that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing impact point loads, its tensile strength is not any higher than acrylic, comparing dollars to dollars. That is, if you are going to be firing bullets at your portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; if you want them to bear the weight when taking green water across the deck, then dollar for dollar you can get about twice the tensile strength for the same investment in acrylic. Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that looks interesting, now available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this is substantially less expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in boatbuilding? I know the price of it doesn't matter that much in smaller boats, but in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, especially if you are thinking about skylights and dealing with material more than an inch thick, it starts to add up fast! --Ken| 11567|11517|2006-09-03 17:05:05|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Plastics & Portlights|On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 02:07:01PM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), strong, > > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open in all > > four directions. > > What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know it is supposed to be > much stronger than acrylic and significantly softer (and more > expensive) as well. But I was doing some research into it and Lexan > seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when it comes to portlights. Acrylic, in my experience, crazes and "rots" in the sun - especially when you get into places where the sun beats down, like the Caribbean. I had a 3/8" acrylic skylight that came with the boat which collapsed while I was standing on it (chewed up my leg pretty well, too, but I was lucky enough to miss the really bad jagged spikes - especially since I went through it all the way to the hip.) I replaced it with 3/8" Lexan, and that's been standing up pretty well for, oh, going on 7 years now. (It's just starting to show a little surface crazing in one corner, so perhaps that's the useful span of Lexan in the Caribbean/Florida sun.) > What I was seeing (I can probably find the numbers again if needed) is > that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing impact point loads, > its tensile strength is not any higher than acrylic, comparing dollars > to dollars. That is, if you are going to be firing bullets at your > portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; if you want them to > bear the weight when taking green water across the deck, then dollar > for dollar you can get about twice the tensile strength for the same > investment in acrylic. > > Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that looks interesting, now > available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this is substantially less > expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in boatbuilding? Pretty decent boat-related article about the various plastics: http://www.ez2cy.com/other_enclosures/mystery.html > I know the price of it doesn't matter that much in smaller boats, but > in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, especially if you are > thinking about skylights and dealing with material more than an inch > thick, it starts to add up fast! I'm definitely interested in seeing how this shakes out, since I'll be replacing that skylight (and have been thinking about upgrading my too-thin lights...) soon. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11568|11517|2006-09-03 17:43:13|cirejay|Re: Plastics & Portlights|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > Pretty decent boat-related article about the various plastics: > > http://www.ez2cy.com/other_enclosures/mystery.html Jeff lives here in Annapolis and he usually pops into my office a couple of times a month so we can talk boats - the bank thinks we're talking business:-). He is an absolute detail nut - in a very positive way - and a pretty fair fisherman. He's currently redoing - to the nines - a 54' Egg. He'll be interested to know that he's being referenced on a steel boat building Group. eric S/V Nebaras| 11569|11517|2006-09-03 18:05:49|Paul|Re: Plastics & Portlights|Hi I'm new to this group. I mainly have built in wood but weld and was told about this group and the origami boat concept. A number of years ago I worked at a very secure facility that had huge lexan front windows. It was a shelter for abused kids and they were trying to make the place really secure while not making it feel like a prison. As I remember, they had a thin gold colored coating that was supposed to keep them from breaking down in sunlight. Perhaps with the same coating lexan portlights would last longer, though saltwater may defeat this coating. Paul Hardy --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 02:07:01PM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), strong, > > > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open in all > > > four directions. > > > > What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know it is supposed to be > > much stronger than acrylic and significantly softer (and more > > expensive) as well. But I was doing some research into it and Lexan > > seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when it comes to portlights. > > Acrylic, in my experience, crazes and "rots" in the sun - especially > when you get into places where the sun beats down, like the Caribbean. I > had a 3/8" acrylic skylight that came with the boat which collapsed > while I was standing on it (chewed up my leg pretty well, too, but I was > lucky enough to miss the really bad jagged spikes - especially since I > went through it all the way to the hip.) I replaced it with 3/8" Lexan, > and that's been standing up pretty well for, oh, going on 7 years now. > (It's just starting to show a little surface crazing in one corner, so > perhaps that's the useful span of Lexan in the Caribbean/Florida sun.) > > > What I was seeing (I can probably find the numbers again if needed) is > > that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing impact point loads, > > its tensile strength is not any higher than acrylic, comparing dollars > > to dollars. That is, if you are going to be firing bullets at your > > portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; if you want them to > > bear the weight when taking green water across the deck, then dollar > > for dollar you can get about twice the tensile strength for the same > > investment in acrylic. > > > > Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that looks interesting, now > > available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this is substantially less > > expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in boatbuilding? > > Pretty decent boat-related article about the various plastics: > > http://www.ez2cy.com/other_enclosures/mystery.html > > > I know the price of it doesn't matter that much in smaller boats, but > > in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, especially if you are > > thinking about skylights and dealing with material more than an inch > > thick, it starts to add up fast! > > I'm definitely interested in seeing how this shakes out, since I'll be > replacing that skylight (and have been thinking about upgrading my > too-thin lights...) soon. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11570|11535|2006-09-03 19:36:29|peter_d_wiley|Re: Rescue of 36 foot Colvin Designed Saugeen Witch|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" wrote: > > Anybody know the heritage of the *Saugeen Witch*? > > I built a couple Colvin boats back in Ontario (both Gazelles, in > aluminum) and the name suggests an Ontario origin, after the river of > the same name. > > Just curious... I have the history at home. First one was designed for extensive cruising for a couple. Was 34' and displaced 14400 lbs roughly. Not sure of the derivation of the name. There have been over 120 built mainly in steel but a few in aluminium and a derivative in ferrocement which Tom Colvin wasn't too happy with. Tom keeps track of the boats built from a licensed set of plans so may have some information on whatever you're trying to rebuild. PDW| 11571|11517|2006-09-03 21:17:33|David A. Frantz|Re: Plastics & Portlights|I d0on't know about boats to any great extent but I can tell you one thing I would not want anything on the boat I intend to own to be made out of any thing other than lexan or similar generic material. This based on vast industrial experience where Lexan is the material of choice due to its durability. All that being said, if a storm is coming I think I'd prefer a metal door to go over whatever window is actually there. Dave khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), strong, > > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open in all > > four directions. > > What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know it is supposed to be > much stronger than acrylic and significantly softer (and more > expensive) as well. But I was doing some research into it and Lexan > seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when it comes to portlights. > > What I was seeing (I can probably find the numbers again if needed) is > that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing impact point loads, > its tensile strength is not any higher than acrylic, comparing dollars > to dollars. That is, if you are going to be firing bullets at your > portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; if you want them to > bear the weight when taking green water across the deck, then dollar > for dollar you can get about twice the tensile strength for the same > investment in acrylic. > > Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that looks interesting, now > available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this is substantially less > expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in boatbuilding? > > I know the price of it doesn't matter that much in smaller boats, but > in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, especially if you are > thinking about skylights and dealing with material more than an inch > thick, it starts to add up fast! > > --Ken > > | 11572|11517|2006-09-04 01:42:47|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|No offense ben, but these people kill people, routinely. The question might be who's really playing games? the guy with the gun or knife sneaking onboard to take what you have, including your life perhaps? or someone standing there shining a flashlight in his face? There are bad people out there who will hurt you for 20 dollars...lots of em, and seemingly more all the time. There is a site somewhere which keeps track of the increasing piracy occuring around the world, whole tanker crews are now coming up missing, and its getting worse. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:44:53PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only do you > > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can actually sink > > his boat if needed. > > > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection is a > > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent out the > > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some compressed gas > > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think that it > > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that ends up > > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. > > You might want to consider that this notional "pirate" will now be *so* > pissed off that he'll have a "reason" to do anything he wants to you - > although he'll be "sorry" later. > > I knew a guy down south who had a 15-20 million CP aircraft landing > light mounted in his main salon and pointed up the companionway, with > the switch by his bunk. Turning that thing on not only scared any > intruders away but also put them at a huge disadvantage in a night fight > - in part, by preventing them from seeing what kind of cards he was > holding. Not that he'd ever mentioned having to use it, but that > sounded like a pretty good strategy to me. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11573|11517|2006-09-04 04:05:10|David A. Frantz|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Though I sense a bit of topic drift here, it does make sense to think about how to sucure and defend your ship. It ought to be part fo the design process along with the more generic ship engineering. As you say it is getting worst, I often think of it as an infection of the British mentality which seems to deny that bad people exists. Not to offend the British here on the forum but I believe that many people from that country do understand where their government has lead them as far as personal safety. So maybe we need to concentrate on what design elements makes a boat an easy mark. One thing that always bothered me is the doors and Windows on modern saling vessels. They do not strike me as safe from the seaworthiness standpoint much less effective in slowing an intruder. Dave seeratlas wrote: > No offense ben, but these people kill people, routinely. The question > might be who's really playing games? the guy with the gun or knife > sneaking onboard to take what you have, including your life perhaps? > or someone standing there shining a flashlight in his face? > > There are bad people out there who will hurt you for 20 dollars...lots > of em, and seemingly more all the time. There is a site somewhere > which keeps track of the increasing piracy occuring around the world, > whole tanker crews are now coming up missing, and its getting worse. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:44:53PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only do you > > > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can actually > sink > > > his boat if needed. > > > > > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection > is a > > > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent > out the > > > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > > > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some > compressed gas > > > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think that it > > > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that ends up > > > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. > > > > You might want to consider that this notional "pirate" will now be *so* > > pissed off that he'll have a "reason" to do anything he wants to you - > > although he'll be "sorry" later. > > > > I knew a guy down south who had a 15-20 million CP aircraft landing > > light mounted in his main salon and pointed up the companionway, with > > the switch by his bunk. Turning that thing on not only scared any > > intruders away but also put them at a huge disadvantage in a night fight > > - in part, by preventing them from seeing what kind of cards he was > > holding. Not that he'd ever mentioned having to use it, but that > > sounded like a pretty good strategy to me. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > | 11574|11517|2006-09-04 10:01:20|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 05:39:28AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > No offense ben, but these people kill people, routinely. The question > might be who's really playing games? the guy with the gun or knife > sneaking onboard to take what you have, including your life perhaps? > or someone standing there shining a flashlight in his face? Seer, I'm afraid that you've misread what I wrote; nowhere did I mention a flashlight. A 15-20 *million* CP landing light _at a choke point_ (that is, a point which the attacker _must_ pass in order to reach you) not only will blind and cause severe pain to anyone coming down that companionway but also prevent him from seeing what is waiting down below. Few people are willing to blindly stumble into anything from an extended machete to an absent companion ladder - besides which, they now know that there's an awake, alert human being down there who is ready to defend himself. Anyone who is not a lunatic will run away - which is the exact point of the primary defense layer in a civilian setting (murdering someone because they came to steal your food is not only morally wrong but *will*, properly, land you in /la carcel/ for a long, long time.) Your scenario, by contrast, presumes a highly-cooperative burglar who will stick his face in your stern and wait for the pepper sauce. It's not only unrealistic; if, by some strange coincidence, it ever did work, it would not prevent the assault but instead elevate the threat level *and* give the attacker time to recover. Oh, and by the way: if you doubt the effectiveness of powerful lights, look up the history of the Skylighters (225th Searchlight Battalion, WWII.) They not only blinded enemy bombers into ineffectiveness - they actually managed to bring down a plane by doing so. As well, the Coast Guard and the police here in the States have the right to shoot you dead if you point a spotlight at them - and have a good strong reason that will stand up in court behind it. > There are bad people out there who will hurt you for 20 dollars...lots > of em, and seemingly more all the time. There are also lots of simply hungry people. There are also lots of armed officials coming on board without any warning - read Bruce van Sant's "Passages South" about his encounter in the Dominican Republic. If you want to do permanent or long-term harm to people whose intentions you don't know, I assure you that you'd be making a very large mistake, one that is likely to cost you far more than 20 dollars. > There is a site somewhere > which keeps track of the increasing piracy occuring around the world, > whole tanker crews are now coming up missing, and its getting worse. [shrug] Not every incident of violence that happens to a boater is piracy. Tankers and freighters carry millions of dollars worth of freight and (usually) crews that come from countries with a low per-capita income; it's *much* easier to convince a captain and crew of such a vessel to accept a payoff and transfer the cargo peacefully than reenacting some dagger-between-the-teeth movie plot. The tanker "disappears", the insurance company pays off, and 'everyone' is happy. I've heard of a few cruisers getting assaulted, but it's very rare. There's not much money in it. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11575|11517|2006-09-04 16:06:14|ALEX CHRISTIE|designed-in boat security|I generally thought that there was no real piracy in the Caribbean anymore, but standing in the immigration dept. office in the airport, I saw on the wall a wanted poster for a guy who'd been robbing yachts at gunpoint all over the Grenadines (St. Vincent's islands), and he's still at large. Anti-personel ergonomics might be the name I'd apply to Brent's previous comments about keeping openings smaller than what a man can squeeze through (or kid, actually, as I wouldn't put it past someone to coerce a kid to do their dirty work robbing a boat). The other trick Brent mentions is having dummy-locks -- something that looks like it's doing a serious job when in fact it does nothing. Someone can use up all their robbing time just jimmying a fake lock, giving you plenty of time to "prepare" yourself for the intruder, putting the yacht owner at an advantage. The thing that made me most vulnerable at the apartment during our hostage-robbery affair was not having time enough to wake up and arm myself, so I was a sitting duck. We should definitely steer clear of guns-weapons vs no-guns debate ---- everyone has their own choice to make on that. Brent has some crafty ideas that don't involve firearms, you can find them if you dig around in the archives (enter "speargun" and see what you find, heheh). Mostly I think it's about having fair warning that you are under attack, ideally. Weather that means a sophisticated alarm, or a clanking bell when someone sharply heels your boat over, or some sort of trip wire. Some solutions could be quite simple, others more high tech. I'd guess that the simpler it is, the less likely it is to fail when you need it the most right? Down here in the Caribbean smart people put bars on their windows, simple welded affairs that have no space small enough to get an arm through. There were no such bars on our sliding glass door frames. The bars allow you to sleep at night with the windows open, though you can be poked or shot at, and things could be fished out with a hook on a stick. Again the early warning system would maybe alert you before the poking or shooting got underway. The one thing I'll never understand is how people build steel boats and insist on fitting them with wooden-boat style dropboards or little louvered western saloon doors (someone will burst through them demanding whiskey for sure, pardner). Then the sliding hatch slides over this, with lots of gaps for assailants to jimmy things open with a simple pry-bar. Why not put in a welded hatch? You've got a steel boat, then at the one spot that you enter, you install a bunch of wood and space gaps inviting people in that don't belong. Drop boards - whyyyyyyy? Not only can they get washed away, but they are dead easy to bust through. Alex Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "David A. Frantz" Date: Monday, September 4, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Though I sense a bit of topic drift here, it does make sense to > think > about how to sucure and defend your ship. It ought to be part > fo the > design process along with the more generic ship engineering. As > you > say it is getting worst, I often think of it as an infection of > the > British mentality which seems to deny that bad people exists. > Not to > offend the British here on the forum but I believe that many > people from > that country do understand where their government has lead them as > far > as personal safety. > > So maybe we need to concentrate on what design elements makes a > boat an > easy mark. One thing that always bothered me is the doors and > Windows > on modern saling vessels. They do not strike me as safe from > the > seaworthiness standpoint much less effective in slowing an intruder. > > Dave > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > No offense ben, but these people kill people, routinely. The > question> might be who's really playing games? the guy with the > gun or knife > > sneaking onboard to take what you have, including your life perhaps? > > or someone standing there shining a flashlight in his face? > > > > There are bad people out there who will hurt you for 20 > dollars...lots> of em, and seemingly more all the time. There is a > site somewhere > > which keeps track of the increasing piracy occuring around the > world,> whole tanker crews are now coming up missing, and its > getting worse. > > > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:44:53PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only > do you > > > > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can > actually> sink > > > > his boat if needed. > > > > > > > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection > > is a > > > > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent > > out the > > > > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > > > > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some > > compressed gas > > > > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think > that it > > > > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that > ends up > > > > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. > > > > > > You might want to consider that this notional "pirate" will > now be *so* > > > pissed off that he'll have a "reason" to do anything he wants > to you - > > > although he'll be "sorry" later. > > > > > > I knew a guy down south who had a 15-20 million CP aircraft > landing> > light mounted in his main salon and pointed up the > companionway, with > > > the switch by his bunk. Turning that thing on not only scared any > > > intruders away but also put them at a huge disadvantage in a > night fight > > > - in part, by preventing them from seeing what kind of cards > he was > > > holding. Not that he'd ever mentioned having to use it, but that > > > sounded like a pretty good strategy to me. > > > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > | 11576|11576|2006-09-04 16:54:06|edward_stoneuk|Fishermans Anchor|I have just started getting materials to build a fishermans anchor, (the traditional type of anchor that appears on cap badges etc. I was thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for some of it. The idea is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where other types would skitter along. I live some way from the sea so cannot measure up an existing anchor. Does any one have any info on the angles and ratios used? Regards, Ted| 11577|11517|2006-09-04 18:14:45|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Ok, missed the 15 to 20 million candlepower. We have a weapon you know that utilizes visual lite. But I thought it was one of these spotlights for sale that are generally between 1 and 2 million CP advertised. He must have an interesting electrical setup to be able to throw that on...course, they MIGHT come in thru breaking a window, or the obligatory escape hatch, or just knock a hole in and shoot...at least he'll be able to see what happens to him. Ok, now i'm going to only say this once, for which most of you will be very thankful having struggled thru some of my other rants, but I'm getting old now, I'm much less sociable, and I only give good advice once, so here it is. If you're not interested, now's the time to 'click' that mouse. We now happen to be on a subject I know very much about..and that is, the use of deadly force, and lots of it. I won't burden everyone with it, just let me tell you I've done it alot, from a 19 year old mountain boy killing hardened combat soldiers, to several iterations of what would loosely be called "law enforcement". Over the years, I've become a bit jaded, but then again, though scar'd both physically and mentally, i'm still alive, while lots and LOTS of others are not. There are a full range of options available to you these days ranging from 'pre-emptive strike', to falling on your knees and begging for mercy. People will choose those options and every one in between for whatever reasons. If you search the internet carefully you can watch the film of some of the un-prepared types on their knees getting their heads cut off with a semi dull knife. We are not dealing with 'theory' here. Now a grown man can make his own choices, and to guys like me, whatever you choose is fine for yourself.. BUT on a boat you are charged with care for the life of others...something to consider on both sides. There are a LOT of ways of dealing with this, and some very interesting ones arising from the fact that there is a lot of steel on the boats we are talking about here. There is little if anything to be found in the Domincan Republican waters that can not be found elsewhere at far lower risk. Same can be said for a lot of places. I would advise everyone to 'what if' the possible scenarios and think thru their own list of options and plan accordingly. In the end, no one will come help you, save you, your wife, your daughter, whatever..unless someone like who I used to be happens to be around and aware of what's happening so... think it thru and make your choices, then live, or not accordingly. Just for fun, get dressed up and go to the most dangerous parts of your local big city and take a stroll thru, and that's in public and broad daylight. You are now in "THE REAL WORLD", where 90 something percent of the world's population lives. When and if you get home, re-run your isolated yacht scenario... Brent has been all over the world in a small boat as have several others that post here. His solution is what you see in his designs, small ports, unbreachable hatches, steel boats and his creative 'brown noise' maker (LOL I LOVE that thing:) There are some worthy posts on this subject in the 11 thousand odd postings here, most of the good ones by someone other than me. Worth doing a search for anyone thinking of the issue. AND, from my review of the insurance group site I was referring to, I don't recall the incident you were referring too where they were paid off to walk away. The ones I saw there, and the few I've seen in person, involved lots of blood on the decks. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 05:39:28AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > No offense ben, but these people kill people, routinely. The question > > might be who's really playing games? the guy with the gun or knife > > sneaking onboard to take what you have, including your life perhaps? > > or someone standing there shining a flashlight in his face? > > Seer, I'm afraid that you've misread what I wrote; nowhere did I mention > a flashlight. A 15-20 *million* CP landing light _at a choke point_ > (that is, a point which the attacker _must_ pass in order to reach you) > not only will blind and cause severe pain to anyone coming down that > companionway but also prevent him from seeing what is waiting down > below. Few people are willing to blindly stumble into anything from an > extended machete to an absent companion ladder - besides which, they now > know that there's an awake, alert human being down there who is ready to > defend himself. Anyone who is not a lunatic will run away - which is > the exact point of the primary defense layer in a civilian setting > (murdering someone because they came to steal your food is not only > morally wrong but *will*, properly, land you in /la carcel/ for a long, > long time.) > > Your scenario, by contrast, presumes a highly-cooperative burglar who > will stick his face in your stern and wait for the pepper sauce. It's > not only unrealistic; if, by some strange coincidence, it ever did work, > it would not prevent the assault but instead elevate the threat level > *and* give the attacker time to recover. > > Oh, and by the way: if you doubt the effectiveness of powerful lights, > look up the history of the Skylighters (225th Searchlight Battalion, > WWII.) They not only blinded enemy bombers into ineffectiveness - they > actually managed to bring down a plane by doing so. As well, the Coast > Guard and the police here in the States have the right to shoot you dead > if you point a spotlight at them - and have a good strong reason > that will stand up in court behind it. > > > There are bad people out there who will hurt you for 20 dollars...lots > > of em, and seemingly more all the time. > > There are also lots of simply hungry people. There are also lots of > armed officials coming on board without any warning - read Bruce van > Sant's "Passages South" about his encounter in the Dominican Republic. > If you want to do permanent or long-term harm to people whose intentions > you don't know, I assure you that you'd be making a very large mistake, > one that is likely to cost you far more than 20 dollars. > > > There is a site somewhere > > which keeps track of the increasing piracy occuring around the world, > > whole tanker crews are now coming up missing, and its getting worse. > > [shrug] Not every incident of violence that happens to a boater is > piracy. Tankers and freighters carry millions of dollars worth of > freight and (usually) crews that come from countries with a low > per-capita income; it's *much* easier to convince a captain and crew of > such a vessel to accept a payoff and transfer the cargo peacefully than > reenacting some dagger-between-the-teeth movie plot. The tanker > "disappears", the insurance company pays off, and 'everyone' is happy. > > I've heard of a few cruisers getting assaulted, but it's very rare. > There's not much money in it. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11578|11517|2006-09-04 18:19:33|seeratlas|Re: designed-in boat security|I'll second what Alex said and Brent designed. One of the prime considerations in a cruising boat is how well you can lock it up so you can spend time somewhere else. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > I generally thought that there was no real piracy in the Caribbean anymore, but standing in the immigration dept. office in the airport, I saw on the wall a wanted poster for a guy who'd been robbing yachts at gunpoint all over the Grenadines (St. Vincent's islands), and he's still at large. > > Anti-personel ergonomics might be the name I'd apply to Brent's previous comments about keeping openings smaller than what a man can squeeze through (or kid, actually, as I wouldn't put it past someone to coerce a kid to do their dirty work robbing a boat). The other trick Brent mentions is having dummy-locks -- something that looks like it's doing a serious job when in fact it does nothing. Someone can use up all their robbing time just jimmying a fake lock, giving you plenty of time to "prepare" yourself for the intruder, putting the yacht owner at an advantage. The thing that made me most vulnerable at the apartment during our hostage-robbery affair was not having time enough to wake up and arm myself, so I was a sitting duck. > > We should definitely steer clear of guns-weapons vs no-guns debate - --- everyone has their own choice to make on that. Brent has some crafty ideas that don't involve firearms, you can find them if you dig around in the archives (enter "speargun" and see what you find, heheh). Mostly I think it's about having fair warning that you are under attack, ideally. Weather that means a sophisticated alarm, or a clanking bell when someone sharply heels your boat over, or some sort of trip wire. Some solutions could be quite simple, others more high tech. I'd guess that the simpler it is, the less likely it is to fail when you need it the most right? > > Down here in the Caribbean smart people put bars on their windows, simple welded affairs that have no space small enough to get an arm through. There were no such bars on our sliding glass door frames. The bars allow you to sleep at night with the windows open, though you can be poked or shot at, and things could be fished out with a hook on a stick. Again the early warning system would maybe alert you before the poking or shooting got underway. > > The one thing I'll never understand is how people build steel boats and insist on fitting them with wooden-boat style dropboards or little louvered western saloon doors (someone will burst through them demanding whiskey for sure, pardner). Then the sliding hatch slides over this, with lots of gaps for assailants to jimmy things open with a simple pry-bar. Why not put in a welded hatch? You've got a steel boat, then at the one spot that you enter, you install a bunch of wood and space gaps inviting people in that don't belong. Drop boards - whyyyyyyy? Not only can they get washed away, but they are dead easy to bust through. > > Alex > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David A. Frantz" > Date: Monday, September 4, 2006 4:00 am > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > > > Though I sense a bit of topic drift here, it does make sense to > > think > > about how to sucure and defend your ship. It ought to be part > > fo the > > design process along with the more generic ship engineering. As > > you > > say it is getting worst, I often think of it as an infection of > > the > > British mentality which seems to deny that bad people exists. > > Not to > > offend the British here on the forum but I believe that many > > people from > > that country do understand where their government has lead them as > > far > > as personal safety. > > > > So maybe we need to concentrate on what design elements makes a > > boat an > > easy mark. One thing that always bothered me is the doors and > > Windows > > on modern saling vessels. They do not strike me as safe from > > the > > seaworthiness standpoint much less effective in slowing an intruder. > > > > Dave > > > > > > seeratlas wrote: > > > > > No offense ben, but these people kill people, routinely. The > > question> might be who's really playing games? the guy with the > > gun or knife > > > sneaking onboard to take what you have, including your life perhaps? > > > or someone standing there shining a flashlight in his face? > > > > > > There are bad people out there who will hurt you for 20 > > dollars...lots> of em, and seemingly more all the time. There is a > > site somewhere > > > which keeps track of the increasing piracy occuring around the > > world,> whole tanker crews are now coming up missing, and its > > getting worse. > > > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > , "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:44:53PM -0400, David A. Frantz wrote: > > > > > Your friend the builder has good taste in weapons. Not only > > do you > > > > > have the range to to safely fend off the attacker you can > > actually> sink > > > > > his boat if needed. > > > > > > > > > > One thing I've ben thinking about for closer quarters protection > > > is a > > > > > built in system to spray a pepper sauce or similar burning agent > > > out the > > > > > transom end. Given that the transom might be the easy access > > > > > point. Wouldn't need much but a storage bottle, some > > > compressed gas > > > > > of some sort and Plumbing and a nozzle. Actually I think > > that it > > > > > would be a bit funny to see what happens to the pirate that > > ends up > > > > > trying to board thru a cloud of pepper spray. > > > > > > > > You might want to consider that this notional "pirate" will > > now be *so* > > > > pissed off that he'll have a "reason" to do anything he wants > > to you - > > > > although he'll be "sorry" later. > > > > > > > > I knew a guy down south who had a 15-20 million CP aircraft > > landing> > light mounted in his main salon and pointed up the > > companionway, with > > > > the switch by his bunk. Turning that thing on not only scared any > > > > intruders away but also put them at a huge disadvantage in a > > night fight > > > > - in part, by preventing them from seeing what kind of cards > > he was > > > > holding. Not that he'd ever mentioned having to use it, but that > > > > sounded like a pretty good strategy to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > > > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11579|11576|2006-09-04 18:22:36|seeratlas|Re: Fishermans Anchor|The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat Herreshoff (sp?) one which i think you might be able to research on the net. Seems to me I saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials etc. on some of his plans which were available on the net at one time. If not check for someone who has one of his design books. Second, watch out using this thing in any kind of 'yachty or commercial harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, refrigerators or wrecks like crazy and to free one often means going over the side, which in most commercial harbors is something you do NOT want to do, for bio related reasons primarily. Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot of people with great great big breakdown types that they use as 'hurricane hooks' as when they get hold of something, they only grudgingly let go :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > I have just started getting materials to build a fishermans anchor, > (the traditional type of anchor that appears on cap badges etc. I was > thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for some of it. The idea > is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where other types would skitter > along. I live some way from the sea so cannot measure up an existing > anchor. Does any one have any info on the angles and ratios used? > Regards, > Ted > | 11580|11517|2006-09-04 18:55:53|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 10:09:49PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Ok, missed the 15 to 20 million candlepower. We have a weapon you > know that utilizes visual lite. But I thought it was one of these > spotlights for sale that are generally between 1 and 2 million CP > advertised. He must have an interesting electrical setup to be able > to throw that on...course, they MIGHT come in thru breaking a window, > or the obligatory escape hatch, or just knock a hole in and > shoot...at least he'll be able to see what happens to him. I'd be interested in watching someone try to crawl through a "window" onto my boat. :) They'd have to be, oh, about badger size - and it would take them a while. > Ok, now i'm going to only say this once, for which most of you will > be very thankful having struggled thru some of my other rants, but > I'm getting old now, I'm much less sociable, and I only give good > advice once, so here it is. If you're not interested, now's the time > to 'click' that mouse. > > We now happen to be on a subject I know very much about..and that > is, the use of deadly force, and lots of it. I won't burden everyone > with it, just let me tell you I've done it alot, from a 19 year old > mountain boy killing hardened combat soldiers, to several iterations > of what would loosely be called "law enforcement". I don't really want to get into peepee-size matching here, but - as a US Army veteran (infantry), a combat tactician, a pistol-based self-defense trainer, a martial artist of some years' experience (and I'm not talking just asian martial arts; it's a broad area meaning "arts of war", and I include pistol training, etc. in it), I have a little experience myself. > There is little if anything > to be found in the Domincan Republican waters that can not be found > elsewhere at far lower risk. This is one of those places where my experience is certainly superior to yours; I've spent most of a year sailing and travelling in the DR, and it's probably one of the safest places around. Slightly-clueless officials don't indicate a lower level of ctizen security; in fact, for safety, I'd trade any place in the US for it. > Just for fun, get dressed up and go to the most dangerous parts of > your local big city and take a stroll thru See, this is where we differ. I would never "get dressed up" and "take a stroll" through an area like that. When I was 14, my best friend was a black kid living on the wrong side of the tracks; we hung out a lot together, and I know how to act in a ghetto. I'm willing to bet you that I'd do just fine there. If you chose to dress up and stroll, I'd probably refrain from calling "Yo, Vic!" (victim)... but lots of other people would. Not a recipe for a long life, there. > AND, from my review of the insurance group site I was referring to, I > don't recall the incident you were referring too where they were paid > off to walk away. The ones I saw there, and the few I've seen in > person, involved lots of blood on the decks. [shrug] That it's a low-percentage game doesn't make it impossible. There are still stupid people out there who are willing to use violence where they could use their brain; my methods tend to separate the two. I reserve my right to laugh at indiscriminate "movie cowboy" defense scenarios. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11581|11576|2006-09-04 20:41:24|peter_d_wiley|Re: Fishermans Anchor|In the set of plans I got off of Tom Colvin he included a design for an all welded fisherman type anchor. Write to him & ask if he'll give/sell you a copy. I haven't made one yet but I plan on it. Cheap & strong but easily replaceable so if it has to go - shrug. Long as it works when you need it. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat Herreshoff (sp?) one > which i think you might be able to research on the net. Seems to me I > saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials etc. on some of his > plans which were available on the net at one time. If not check for > someone who has one of his design books. > > Second, watch out using this thing in any kind of 'yachty or commercial > harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, refrigerators or wrecks > like crazy and to free one often means going over the side, which in > most commercial harbors is something you do NOT want to do, for bio > related reasons primarily. > > Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot of people with great > great big breakdown types that they use as 'hurricane hooks' as when > they get hold of something, they only grudgingly let go :) > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > I have just started getting materials to build a fishermans anchor, > > (the traditional type of anchor that appears on cap badges etc. I > was > > thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for some of it. The idea > > is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where other types would > skitter > > along. I live some way from the sea so cannot measure up an existing > > anchor. Does any one have any info on the angles and ratios used? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 11582|11576|2006-09-04 21:44:35|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Fishermans Anchor|On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 10:21:47PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat Herreshoff (sp?) one > which i think you might be able to research on the net. Seems to me I > saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials etc. on some of his > plans which were available on the net at one time. If not check for > someone who has one of his design books. If you can't find it that way, let me know; I'll dig my big storm hook out of the locker and send you whatever measurements you need. It's a bit of a pain to get to, otherwise I'd already have done it. > Second, watch out using this thing in any kind of 'yachty or commercial > harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, refrigerators or wrecks > like crazy and to free one often means going over the side, which in > most commercial harbors is something you do NOT want to do, for bio > related reasons primarily. They also don't do well in really soupy mud (like mangrove mud and the stuff here in NE Florida), although they're great in harder bottoms and rocks - but be sure rig a trip line. > Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot of people with great > great big breakdown types that they use as 'hurricane hooks' as when > they get hold of something, they only grudgingly let go :) One of the sailors that I knew in Boqueron, Puerto Rico had built himself a 36' steel boat, and a pair of anchors for it - a 150-lb. and a 250-lb. (I don't recall the pattern) - that he stowed in his bilges and considered as part of his ballast. During Hurricane Luis, as we both stood on shore and watched, a 45' boat dragged down on him and snagged on his rodes; he watched the two boats for a moment and said, "Eh, it'll hold fine." It did. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11583|11517|2006-09-05 00:31:56|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > I'd be interested in watching someone try to crawl through a "window" > onto my boat. :) They'd have to be, oh, about badger size - and it would > take them a while. ok, most people would like to see a bit more from the inside of their boat. For my river/canal going purposes, perhaps even more so..as was suggested, since the boat is steel, not sure I have a problem with some stainless grating that would serve not only as security, but even as a mounting point for some storm battens. > > I don't really want to get into peepee-size matching here, Probably a good thing LOL. >but - as a US > Army veteran (infantry), a combat tactician, a pistol-based self- defense > trainer, a martial artist of some years' experience (and I'm not talking > just asian martial arts; it's a broad area meaning "arts of war", and I > include pistol training, etc. in it), I have a little experience myself. Excellent and based on your experience, your cited solution is hanging a what, a several thousand watt flashlight in the main cabin pointing up at the hatch? In a sailboat,? which 'usually' has a problem with headroom AND available electricity?...ooooo kkkkkk > > There is little if anything > > to be found in the Domincan Republican waters that can not be found > > elsewhere at far lower risk. > > This is one of those places where my experience is certainly superior to > yours; I've spent most of a year sailing and travelling in the DR, and > it's probably one of the safest places around. Slightly-clueless > officials don't indicate a lower level of ctizen security; in fact, for > safety, I'd trade any place in the US for it. You might consider reading what the State Department and the IMB has to say about traveling in and around the Dominican Republic. You appear to have been a most fortunate person. As for trading any place in the US for it...well, I don't recall any news reports of people fighting to get INTO the Dominican Republic, but who knows :) 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants here *might* be wrong!! lol. The waters to me looked much like you would find around, say, Puerto Rico or a number of other places, generally a pretty place, except where the people are. > > Just for fun, get dressed up and go to the most dangerous parts of > > your local big city and take a stroll thru > > See, this is where we differ. I would never "get dressed up" and "take a > stroll" through an area like that. Oh i think we can be confident we are going to disagree on much more than that :) but think about it, In many ways, sailing a nice boat into an area, dropping anchor, turning on the radio and hoisting a few martini's... where the local people have next to nothing, is much the same thing, thus the analogy. I know Don Street, amongst others, used to preach about 'dressing down' the boat when cruising in many of these kinds of areas...probably good advice. >When I was 14, my best friend was a > black kid living on the wrong side of the tracks; we hung out a lot > together, and I know how to act in a ghetto. I'm willing to bet you that > I'd do just fine there. If you chose to dress up and stroll, I'd > probably refrain from calling "Yo, Vic!" (victim)... but lots of other > people would. Not a recipe for a long life, there. like i said, i'm old. > > > AND, from my review of the insurance group site I was referring to, I > > don't recall the incident you were referring too where they were paid > > off to walk away. The ones I saw there, and the few I've seen in > > person, involved lots of blood on the decks. > [shrug] That it's a low-percentage game doesn't make it impossible. > There are still stupid people out there who are willing to use violence > where they could use their brain; my methods tend to separate the two. > > I reserve my right to laugh at indiscriminate "movie cowboy" defense > scenarios. > And what scenario, pray tell, would that be? lol, in fact,let me tell you a story. I had occasion before the Soviet Union fell apart, to spend quite a while in there, from west to east, south to north, pretty much all of the republics-even flew into the middle of the Azerbaijani 'war' with neighboring Armenia the night it went "hot", had to run over the mountains in the dark and ran right into a civil insurrection there, bullets flying all over, the front of the embassy looking much like the old days in east beirut. In fact, despite all the crap going on during that trip I was never treated with anything other than respectful curiosity, and in Soviet Georgia (where all hell was breaking loose) I even got to party with the locals who elected me 'Tamada' for the night's festivities. If you're interested look it up, but the short description is party leader :) Now, you want to know why? Well, I was born in Texas, and was wearing one of my Stetsons.... You see, even there, they had seen the movies... no kiddin. you should have seen the horsemen in mongolia... Now Ben, you seem to be a fine guy, I've enjoyed your posts on the board here on a number of subjects, but we are going to disagree on this one. A man makes his own decisions, but i'm going to stick with my advise and opinion that someone who has considered the worst that can happen, and planned for it, will often be pleasantly surprised, but rarely disappointed, or most importantly, caught unprepared. seer > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11584|11517|2006-09-05 00:34:58|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > I'd be interested in watching someone try to crawl through a "window" > onto my boat. :) They'd have to be, oh, about badger size - and it would > take them a while. ok, most people would like to see a bit more from the inside of their boat. For my river/canal going purposes, perhaps even more so..as was suggested, since the boat is steel, not sure I have a problem with some stainless grating that would serve not only as security, but even as a mounting point for some storm battens. > > I don't really want to get into peepee-size matching here, Probably a good thing LOL. >but - as a US > Army veteran (infantry), a combat tactician, a pistol-based self- defense > trainer, a martial artist of some years' experience (and I'm not talking > just asian martial arts; it's a broad area meaning "arts of war", and I > include pistol training, etc. in it), I have a little experience myself. Excellent and based on your experience, your cited solution is hanging a what, a several thousand watt flashlight in the main cabin pointing up at the hatch? In a sailboat,? which 'usually' has a problem with headroom AND available electricity?...ooooo kkkkkk > > There is little if anything > > to be found in the Domincan Republican waters that can not be found > > elsewhere at far lower risk. > > This is one of those places where my experience is certainly superior to > yours; I've spent most of a year sailing and travelling in the DR, and > it's probably one of the safest places around. Slightly-clueless > officials don't indicate a lower level of ctizen security; in fact, for > safety, I'd trade any place in the US for it. You might consider reading what the State Department and the IMB has to say about traveling in and around the Dominican Republic. You appear to have been a most fortunate person. As for trading any place in the US for it...well, I don't recall any news reports of people fighting to get INTO the Dominican Republic, but who knows :) 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants here *might* be wrong!! lol. The waters to me looked much like you would find around, say, Puerto Rico or a number of other places, generally a pretty place, except where the people are. > > Just for fun, get dressed up and go to the most dangerous parts of > > your local big city and take a stroll thru > > See, this is where we differ. I would never "get dressed up" and "take a > stroll" through an area like that. Oh i think we can be confident we are going to disagree on much more than that :) but think about it, In many ways, sailing a nice boat into an area, dropping anchor, turning on the radio and hoisting a few martini's... where the local people have next to nothing, is much the same thing, thus the analogy. I know Don Street, amongst others, used to preach about 'dressing down' the boat when cruising in many of these kinds of areas...probably good advice. >When I was 14, my best friend was a > black kid living on the wrong side of the tracks; we hung out a lot > together, and I know how to act in a ghetto. I'm willing to bet you that > I'd do just fine there. If you chose to dress up and stroll, I'd > probably refrain from calling "Yo, Vic!" (victim)... but lots of other > people would. Not a recipe for a long life, there. like i said, i'm old. > > > AND, from my review of the insurance group site I was referring to, I > > don't recall the incident you were referring too where they were paid > > off to walk away. The ones I saw there, and the few I've seen in > > person, involved lots of blood on the decks. > [shrug] That it's a low-percentage game doesn't make it impossible. > There are still stupid people out there who are willing to use violence > where they could use their brain; my methods tend to separate the two. > > I reserve my right to laugh at indiscriminate "movie cowboy" defense > scenarios. > And what scenario, pray tell, would that be? lol, in fact,let me tell you a story. I had occasion before the Soviet Union fell apart, to spend quite a while in there, from west to east, south to north, pretty much all of the republics-even flew into the middle of the Azerbaijani 'war' with neighboring Armenia the night it went "hot", had to run over the mountains in the dark and ran right into a civil insurrection there, bullets flying all over, the front of the embassy looking much like the old days in east beirut. In fact, despite all the crap going on during that trip I was never treated with anything other than respectful curiosity, and in Soviet Georgia (where all hell was breaking loose) I even got to party with the locals who elected me 'Tamada' for the night's festivities. If you're interested look it up, but the short description is party leader :) Now, you want to know why? Well, I was born in Texas, and was wearing one of my Stetsons.... You see, even there, they had seen the movies... no kiddin. you should have seen the horsemen in mongolia... Now Ben, you seem to be a fine guy, I've enjoyed your posts on the board here on a number of subjects, but we are going to disagree on this one. A man makes his own decisions, but i'm going to stick with my advise and opinion that someone who has considered the worst that can happen, and planned for it, will often be pleasantly surprised, but rarely disappointed, or most importantly, caught unprepared. seer > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11585|11517|2006-09-05 05:22:50|edward_stoneuk|Re: designed-in boat security|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I'll second what Alex said and Brent designed. One of the prime > considerations in a cruising boat is how well you can lock it up so > you can spend time somewhere else. > > seer Thats fair comment Seer. One is used to locking and setting the alarm on an automobile, when you leave it, and locking the doors when you drive through certain areas. A boat should have the same facility. I was brought up on a farm in the UK. We owned shotguns. My father's advice was if someone forced entry into the house and I felt there was no other way to stop them other than shooting them then to make sure that I shot them dead so that they could not argue the case in court, that I shot them in the front so that there would be no argument that I had shot them while they were escaping, and to shoot them so they fell inside the house so there was no argument that they were not a threat at the time. A subsequent case where a farmer ended up in prison after he shot dead a burglar in the back as he was fleeing across the yard showed this to be fair advice. The law in other parts of the world may be different as may be the law concerning boats. A good dog is an excellent security device. They are good alarms and single minded protective. Regards, Ted| 11586|11576|2006-09-05 10:24:36|Courtney Thomas|Re: Fishermans Anchor|I too would be interested in such plans, please. Thank you, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "peter_d_wiley" To: Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fishermans Anchor > In the set of plans I got off of Tom Colvin he included a design for an all welded fisherman > type anchor. Write to him & ask if he'll give/sell you a copy. I haven't made one yet but I > plan on it. Cheap & strong but easily replaceable so if it has to go - shrug. Long as it > works when you need it. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat Herreshoff (sp?) one > > which i think you might be able to research on the net. Seems to me I > > saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials etc. on some of his > > plans which were available on the net at one time. If not check for > > someone who has one of his design books. > > > > Second, watch out using this thing in any kind of 'yachty or commercial > > harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, refrigerators or wrecks > > like crazy and to free one often means going over the side, which in > > most commercial harbors is something you do NOT want to do, for bio > > related reasons primarily. > > > > Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot of people with great > > great big breakdown types that they use as 'hurricane hooks' as when > > they get hold of something, they only grudgingly let go :) > > > > seer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have just started getting materials to build a fishermans anchor, > > > (the traditional type of anchor that appears on cap badges etc. I > > was > > > thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for some of it. The idea > > > is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where other types would > > skitter > > > along. I live some way from the sea so cannot measure up an existing > > > anchor. Does any one have any info on the angles and ratios used? > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 11587|11517|2006-09-05 12:46:09|gschnell|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|MJ, It was great to meet you, share opinions and get new perspectives on building a boat. Really enjoyed your company. Feel free to drop in anytime. Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable | 11588|11517|2006-09-05 22:55:43|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Tue, Sep 05, 2006 at 04:27:01AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > I'd be interested in watching someone try to crawl through > a "window" > > onto my boat. :) They'd have to be, oh, about badger size - and it > would > > take them a while. > > ok, most people would like to see a bit more from the inside of their > boat. If they use the blue water much, then "seeing a bit more" takes a back seat to not having a breaking sea strolling right through those large ports or lights. If I want to see more, well, my companionway is just a few steps away, and I get the whole circumference out to the horizon. > For my river/canal going purposes, perhaps even more so..as > was suggested, since the boat is steel, not sure I have a problem > with some stainless grating that would serve not only as security, > but even as a mounting point for some storm battens. I agree that a boat restricted to canal and river work can afford to compromise on that particular issue - at which point, a steel grating would be a good thing. Many boats, including any boat that I'd ever consider worth owning, are not so restricted. Incidentally, my boat, despite being blue-water capable, is perfectly suited to canal and river work: she was built in the Ijselmeer (the Netherlands) where that's an important consideration, and has her masts in tabernacles as well as a fairly large engine for her size. > Excellent and based on your experience, your cited solution is > hanging a what, a several thousand watt flashlight in the main cabin > pointing up at the hatch? In a sailboat,? which 'usually' has a > problem with headroom AND available electricity?...ooooo kkkkkk Have you thought about what "pointing up" means, Seer? If something is pointing _up,_ that implies a relative position of _down_ for the item doing the pointing. In other words, the spotlight could be situated anywhere from the sole all the way up to, say, just below the overhead; as long as it can be aligned, line-of-sight-wise, to point into the companion, that satisfies the requirement. Is there some other part of this that you find difficult to understand? I'll be happy to explain. Item two, which you also appear to have not understood clearly: I didn't say "15-20 million watts", or even "15-20 thousand watts", I said "15-20 million candlepower". A quick search of the Web - ah, here's an example: http://www.hammacher.com/publish/72596.asp "World's Brightest Flashlight" It uses an 80-watt H4 halogen bulb, and runs for 40 minutes off its own rechargeable battery; in other words, not only does it not need to use your ship's battery, but if it did, the drain would be relatively negligible (80 / 12 ~= 6.7A). If your boat's system can't supply less than 7 amps, perhaps it's time to revise that system. Mine, for example, would work just fine for loads ten times that high for a good long while. [ The Dominican Republic ] > in fact, for > > safety, I'd trade any place in the US for it. > > You might consider reading what the State Department and the IMB has > to say about traveling in and around the Dominican Republic. You > appear to have been a most fortunate person. So has every cruiser that I've met who's ever spent any significant amount of time there, so you have a very interesting definition of luck. You're also welcome to rely on some bureacrat's politically-motivated statements for your safety; I prefer to trust my own experience and judgement. > As for trading any place in the US for it...well, I don't recall any > news reports of people fighting to get INTO the Dominican Republic, > but who knows :) 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants here *might* be > wrong!! lol. [rolling eyes] Oh yes... those illegal immigrants are choosing between the DR and the US - it's obvious, how could I have missed it? Nice strawman, seer. In other words, you're now trying to retreat from the indefensible position that you took up originally - one based in ignorance - and are now attempting to pretend that the discussion was about *immigration?* You lose, thanks for playing. > In many ways, sailing a nice boat into an area, dropping anchor, > turning on the radio and hoisting a few martini's... where the local > people have next to nothing, is much the same thing, thus the > analogy. I know Don Street, amongst others, used to preach > about 'dressing down' the boat when cruising in many of these kinds > of areas...probably good advice. Always was. Did anything I said imply otherwise? Feel free to quote me if I have. > >When I was 14, my best friend was a > > black kid living on the wrong side of the tracks; we hung out a lot > > together, and I know how to act in a ghetto. I'm willing to bet you > that > > I'd do just fine there. If you chose to dress up and stroll, I'd > > probably refrain from calling "Yo, Vic!" (victim)... but lots of > other > > people would. Not a recipe for a long life, there. > > like i said, i'm old. You share that characteristic with a lot of people. It says nothing about being smart, or competent, or able to survive in a bad environment; it just says that you're old. I'm quite happy to say that I'm not, and won't be for quite a while. > > I reserve my right to laugh at indiscriminate "movie cowboy" defense > > scenarios. > > And what scenario, pray tell, would that be? To pick a completely random example, a pepper sprayer mounted on a stern comes to mind. But no one here would ever mention anything like that, of course, so it's not worth discussing. > lol, in fact,let me tell > you a story. I had occasion before the Soviet Union fell apart, to > spend quite a while in there, from west to east, south to north, > pretty much all of the republics Gosh, *now* I'm impressed. Having been born in Moscow, myself, and having travelled in a number of the republics before I left sorta takes the glamor right out of it... > In fact, despite all > the crap going on during that trip I was never treated with anything > other than respectful curiosity, and in Soviet Georgia (where all > hell was breaking loose) I even got to party with the locals who > elected me 'Tamada' for the night's festivities. If you're > interested look it up, but the short description is party leader :) [smile] "Toastmaster", actually. The fellow who invents the best toasts, and - of necessity - holds his liquor better than anyone, since he has to be up for the last toast. Let me repeat the first part for you: "invents the best toasts". This means excellent diction in Georgian (and usually Russian as well.) Do you think that describes you? Or do you think that the Georgians have a very strong sense of host-duty (which they do) as well as a sense of humor? > you should have seen the horsemen in mongolia... I have. But who knows, there may well be another culture you could impress me with. :) > Now Ben, you seem to be a fine guy, I've enjoyed your posts on the > board here on a number of subjects, but we are going to disagree on > this one. A man makes his own decisions, but i'm going to stick with > my advise and opinion that someone who has considered the worst that > can happen, and planned for it, will often be pleasantly surprised, > but rarely disappointed, or most importantly, caught unprepared. [laugh] Another strawman. *Your* suggestion was some useless stern-mounted widget; mine was (admittedly, someone else's design) a well thought-out part of a self-defense system. You are, again, retreating from an indefensible position and trying to take up the one that I brought up originally - perhaps in the hopes that other people here have forgotten, or can't look at the archives. Nice try... actually, a very poor try. Even a first-semester semantics student would have tried at least, oh, an /ad hominem/ argument, or perhaps affirming the consequent with a side of begging the question - you know, a little _flair._ Your attempt only gets a C-minus; better luck next time. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11589|11517|2006-09-05 23:16:04|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if you'd take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11590|11576|2006-09-06 03:52:41|edward_stoneuk|Re: Fishermans Anchor|Many thanks for everyones info on fishermans anchors. While I was Googling for information I came across the Bulwagga anchor which appears to be a very useful device indeed. Does anyone have any experience of using one? Regards, Ted| 11591|11517|2006-09-06 04:13:22|cirejay|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if you'd > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he hasn't done it should be quite something. eric S/V Nebaras| 11592|11517|2006-09-06 10:01:35|Ray|WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic perspectives on personal se| WARNING - No Steel Boat Content whatsoever - hit the delete key now if discussions of personal security don't interest you. While I understand both Ben's & SEER's perspectives, I won't weigh in on the correctness or appropriateness of either. They DO however, remind me of a story that I think others here might enjoy, whether they agree or are angered by it. **** Begin copied essay ******* ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D., author of "On Killing." "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" William J. Bennett – in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million. Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators. "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out, somewhat, unscathed. Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial. The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and a little wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground. There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not just an animal, you are a person. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is fine, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door. For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the- belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones. I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?" Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?" It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness and horror at your moment of truth. Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa." This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the- sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth. Dave Grossman , LTC(ret)| 11593|11517|2006-09-06 10:53:44|Sugar|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to know that he's not just blowing hot air. :) Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > you'd > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > eric S/V Nebaras > | 11594|11517|2006-09-06 14:11:22|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Sugar..hehehe unless I"m mistaken cirejay was being smugly sarcastic hehehehe. Oh, and your going to have to come up and see Gord's boat. :) And Gord too for that matter heheheh:). s --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" wrote: > > > cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in > weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is > true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in > his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about > himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be > mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to > know that he's not just blowing hot air. > :) > Sugar > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > > you'd > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > | 11595|11517|2006-09-06 14:24:27|Odd Nelsonsonsonsonson|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|From: "Sugar" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 Nice email address... _______________________________________ "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -W.C. Fields "Pog gan croimbeal, ubh gan salann" -- a kiss without a beard is like an egg without salt. -Anon. "When the zucchini is plentiful, we make it in a crock. A treat to serve unexpected company." -Jack Calabro >From: "Sugar" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > >cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in >weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is >true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in >his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about >himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be >mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to >know that he's not just blowing hot air. >:) >Sugar > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > > you'd > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Spaces is here! It�s easy to create your own personal Web site. http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx| 11596|11517|2006-09-06 18:07:17|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|yep, we've known each other many years :) lots of stories there :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Odd Nelsonsonsonsonson" wrote: > > From: "Sugar" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > Nice email address... > > > _______________________________________ > > "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -W.C. Fields > > "Pog gan croimbeal, ubh gan salann" -- a kiss without a beard is like an egg > without salt. > -Anon. > > "When the zucchini is plentiful, we make it in a crock. A treat to serve > unexpected company." > -Jack Calabro > > > > > > > >From: "Sugar" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > > > > >cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in > >weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is > >true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in > >his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about > >himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be > >mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to > >know that he's not just blowing hot air. > >:) > >Sugar > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > > > you'd > > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create your own personal Web site. > http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx > | 11597|11517|2006-09-06 19:43:56|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 08:12:28AM -0000, cirejay wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > you'd > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > hasn't done it should be quite something. Heck, I was just considering other people's sensibilities and following general list protocol (I've been on the Net from the early days; it's an old, ingrained habit.) I guess I don't mind that much on my own behalf if the other list members don't (something not yet established, but thanks for expressing your preference); I certainly stand behind every word I write, and although I don't claim to have done "absolutely everything", I've got forty-plus years of a life in which I've managed to avoid being bored for more than a few seconds at a time. Whatever seer's experience, though, my original point stands: ill-considered movie plots don't contribute to security; in-depth, multi-layered defense strategies do. For those interested in a professional treatment of the topic, I strongly suggest "Beyond Fear" by Bruce Schneier. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11598|11517|2006-09-06 19:58:13|brentswain38|Re: Plastics & Portlights|Friends left BC with hard surfaced lexan. By the time they got to Frisco it had all peeled off like old varnish. The spent the rest of the trip around the pacific looking thru foggy windows. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > Hi I'm new to this group. I mainly have built in wood but weld and > was told about this group and the origami boat concept. > > A number of years ago I worked at a very secure facility that had > huge lexan front windows. It was a shelter for abused kids and they > were trying to make the place really secure while not making it feel > like a prison. As I remember, they had a thin gold colored coating > that was supposed to keep them from breaking down in sunlight. > Perhaps with the same coating lexan portlights would last longer, > though saltwater may defeat this coating. > > Paul Hardy > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 02:07:01PM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), > strong, > > > > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open > in all > > > > four directions. > > > > > > What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know it is supposed > to be > > > much stronger than acrylic and significantly softer (and more > > > expensive) as well. But I was doing some research into it and > Lexan > > > seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when it comes to > portlights. > > > > Acrylic, in my experience, crazes and "rots" in the sun - > especially > > when you get into places where the sun beats down, like the > Caribbean. I > > had a 3/8" acrylic skylight that came with the boat which collapsed > > while I was standing on it (chewed up my leg pretty well, too, but > I was > > lucky enough to miss the really bad jagged spikes - especially > since I > > went through it all the way to the hip.) I replaced it with 3/8" > Lexan, > > and that's been standing up pretty well for, oh, going on 7 years > now. > > (It's just starting to show a little surface crazing in one > corner, so > > perhaps that's the useful span of Lexan in the Caribbean/Florida > sun.) > > > > > What I was seeing (I can probably find the numbers again if > needed) is > > > that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing impact point > loads, > > > its tensile strength is not any higher than acrylic, comparing > dollars > > > to dollars. That is, if you are going to be firing bullets at > your > > > portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; if you want > them to > > > bear the weight when taking green water across the deck, then > dollar > > > for dollar you can get about twice the tensile strength for the > same > > > investment in acrylic. > > > > > > Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that looks > interesting, now > > > available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this is substantially > less > > > expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in boatbuilding? > > > > Pretty decent boat-related article about the various plastics: > > > > http://www.ez2cy.com/other_enclosures/mystery.html > > > > > I know the price of it doesn't matter that much in smaller > boats, but > > > in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, especially if > you are > > > thinking about skylights and dealing with material more than an > inch > > > thick, it starts to add up fast! > > > > I'm definitely interested in seeing how this shakes out, since > I'll be > > replacing that skylight (and have been thinking about upgrading my > > too-thin lights...) soon. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 11599|11576|2006-09-06 20:02:07|peter_d_wiley|Re: Fishermans Anchor|I'll ask Tom what he thinks about this. If he's happy for me to post a copy, fine. Otherwise, not. It's an intellectual property issue. I doubt Brent, for example, would be happy if someone posted a scan of the section of his book on building a stove. I have an earlier copy of Brent's book & haven't got around to buying another one. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > > I too would be interested in such plans, please. > > Thank you, > Courtney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter_d_wiley" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:32 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fishermans Anchor > > > > In the set of plans I got off of Tom Colvin he included a design for an > all welded fisherman > > type anchor. Write to him & ask if he'll give/sell you a copy. I haven't > made one yet but I > > plan on it. Cheap & strong but easily replaceable so if it has to go - > shrug. Long as it > > works when you need it. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat Herreshoff (sp?) one > > > which i think you might be able to research on the net. Seems to me I > > > saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials etc. on some of his > > > plans which were available on the net at one time. If not check for > > > someone who has one of his design books. > > > > > > Second, watch out using this thing in any kind of 'yachty or commercial > > > harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, refrigerators or wrecks > > > like crazy and to free one often means going over the side, which in > > > most commercial harbors is something you do NOT want to do, for bio > > > related reasons primarily. > > > > > > Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot of people with great > > > great big breakdown types that they use as 'hurricane hooks' as when > > > they get hold of something, they only grudgingly let go :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have just started getting materials to build a fishermans anchor, > > > > (the traditional type of anchor that appears on cap badges etc. I > > > was > > > > thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for some of it. The idea > > > > is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where other types would > > > skitter > > > > along. I live some way from the sea so cannot measure up an existing > > > > anchor. Does any one have any info on the angles and ratios used? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11600|11517|2006-09-06 20:36:04|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic perspectives on persona|On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 01:57:03PM -0000, Ray wrote: > WARNING - No Steel Boat Content whatsoever - hit the > delete key now if discussions of personal security don't interest > you. > > While I understand both Ben's & SEER's perspectives, I won't weigh > in on the correctness or appropriateness of either. They DO however, > remind me of a story that I think others here might enjoy, whether > they agree or are angered by it. > > **** Begin copied essay ******* > > ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS > > By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, > Ph.D., author of "On Killing." > > "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does > so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy > things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In > our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, > persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: > What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth > living for?" > William J. Bennett - > in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 [snip] Thanks, Ray; I, for one, did enjoy it. Much of it reflects my own philosophy since the age of thirteen, something that I've refined and added to as the years have gone on. The only perspective that's missing from that quote is that of a moral stance: the thing that makes the difference between a terrorist and a warrior. The expressed sentiment is tremendously, vitally important - but the motivating force behind it, the position of *what* to defend, and which battles deserve our complete commitment, is usually the un-answered question in difficult situations. Blind adherence to dogma is, I believe, the true definition of evil. Honor is about being strong, and controling that strength for the benefit of others. It's about being worthy of being trusted. It's about having rules that mean that, even though you have the ability to hurt people, you choose not to hurt people, as much as you possibly can. It's about letting what you say be true, and making sure that what you promise happens. It's about living up to your word. It's about protecting those in your care. It's about letting one's gentleness temper one's capacity for violence, and about only letting violence happen in the service of gentleness. It's about believing that there's something more important than your own personal immediate comfort. -- Xiphias Gladius, on Usenet Vires et Honor, * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11601|11517|2006-09-06 20:52:10|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Interesting post. On the ports, definitely a tradeoff. Re the ports, You can look at a draft of my design in the files section. i think that's a reasonable balance. One thing I've wondered is why do all ports have to be flat? and therefore ill suited to take a broadside wave? It's not particularly difficult to 'bubble' plexi or lexan so as to get some curvature which would drastically increase the strength of the port in the face of a boarding sea..even a grating might breakup the water sufficiently to dissipate some of the force before impact..I'll have to think that one over. US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. As for canal/river, since you're relatively new to the group, you don't know that my boat is intended to go anywhere, but be able to handle the rivers and canals. Lots of design compromises but I'm not the first, and I think it can be done safely. On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly mentioned some sort of aircraft related light. In any event, when the time comes, I hope it works out for you. Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the one who suggested it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. First of all, its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, you can disguise it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be at least as effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a bit more mobile. Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using them, the stuff that has hit me in training was pretty disagreeable so I wouldn't dismiss that idea out of hand. My own observation related to the Barret which has substantially different capabilites and purposes. As for your opinion on the State Dept's opinons..well...I wouldn't be surprised if they placed an equal value on yours :) Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO idea..... Re: Tamada, Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable BUT best lose the 'Funk & Wagnall' and round up a real live Georgian :) the significance of such a selection under those circumstances, can be and turned out to be remarkable. 'toastmaster' didn't cover it :) C- eh? LOL Never got a "C" in anything in my life :) you're killin me here lol. Ok, enough of that :) Now, for everyone else, there are two aspects of advice, 1. Does the advice make any sense standing on its own? and 2. What is the experience level and intel of the guy/gal rendering it. Sometimes the common joe comes up with a helluva idea, and sometimes the Nobel guys couldn't get it farther wrong :) BUT, by assessing advice based on those two criteria, you Can reach decisions which can keep you from having to personally learn some bad things, in hard ways, which is why I brought this whole thing up in the first place. Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use of weapons always seem to go squirrely, just remember not everyone is Hulk Hogan and that's the point. As someone once said, (probably a cowboy hehe) god created all men, but it was Sam Colt who made em equal. Being able to defend yourself, your family and your boat in this present day world, is worth considering. And as Alex, Brent, and others have pointed out, it starts with planning, design, perhaps some training, preparation, and most of all, knowing in advance what you'd do in a given situation. The human mind has a tendency to 'shut down' or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with something it's never seen before. People freeze and for those few seconds are terribly vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' during those times that usually wins out. You don't have to be built like a football player, ex military, a 'martial arts' expert, or the world's best talk around negotiator.. All you have to do is plan, prepare, and 'think' when the time comes and more often than not you'll be ok. seer| 11602|11576|2006-09-06 21:06:40|Paul J. Thompson|Was: Fishermans Anchor Now: Has Brent made an update to his book ye|Which reminds me, has Brent issued a new copy of his book? I bought mine about 3 - 4 years ago and if he has revised it, I would certainly want a copy of the latest edition. By the way Brent, I know that you are always improving an also developing new ideas and ways of doing things. What about doing an addendum to your book every now and again? I and I am sure many others on this list would be more than willing to pay for it. Regards, Paul peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > I have an earlier > copy of Brent's book & haven't got around to buying another one. > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11603|11517|2006-09-06 21:17:16|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|LOL Eric hehehe. It's true i've lived a very different life, and except for a few places where I encountered others like me, I used to take a bit of flack for it from those who weren't. But like I said, I'm old now, and somewhere along the way I quit apologizing for living my kind of life. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > you'd > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > eric S/V Nebaras > | 11604|11517|2006-09-06 21:38:07|Sugar|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Yes Seer, that is the way I took what cirejay said but I just thought it was time to set the records straight. LOL And regarding seeing Gord's boat......it's on my to do list. Gord-looking forward to eventually meeting you and seeing your boat! Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Sugar..hehehe > > unless I"m mistaken cirejay was being smugly sarcastic hehehehe. > > Oh, and your going to have to come up and see Gord's boat. :) And > Gord too for that matter heheheh:). > > s > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > wrote: > > > > > > cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in > > weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is > > true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more > in > > his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about > > himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may > be > > mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to > > know that he's not just blowing hot air. > > :) > > Sugar > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on > this > > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it > if > > > you'd > > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this > is > > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are > way off. > > > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, > it's > > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based > upon his > > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing > he > > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > | 11605|11517|2006-09-06 22:26:33|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|too late, just now saw this. and I disagree. At least as the topic started dealing with boat security and design considerations contributing to that, I consider that on topic. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if you'd > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11606|11517|2006-09-06 22:40:27|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:41:42PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. Yep. 204th OpFor/9th MI (Military Intelligence), Ft. Lewis, certainly appreciated my facility with Russian; in fact, I spent a fair amount of my enlistment wearing a Russian uniform (well, approximately...) and teaching Soviet TO&E to the troops - and "destroying" their resources (that's including 3/75 Ranger Bn.) in the field. > On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly mentioned some sort > of aircraft related light. I did. Does it being an aircraft landing light magically change the watts-per-candlepower ratio? That would be a new one on me - and on anyone else who understands basic electricity/electronics. > Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the one who suggested > it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. First of all, > its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, you can disguise > it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be at least as > effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a bit more mobile. Not if it's not where they are. Thus my point, which you keep avoiding. The stern only covers a few degrees out of the 360 that define the boat perimeter; there's no reason to assume that this is where the attacker is going to come in. The companion, by contrast, _is_ such a choke point (unless you assume unlocked, unprotected hatches - in which case, your security was compromised to start with.) *Carrying* pepper spray may very well be an excellent idea - but, again, only as a part of a carefully-considered defensive strategy. It's not a magic wand; for that matter, neither is a gun. > Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using them Not by attaching them to the sterns of their boats, I'll guarantee you. > Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO idea..... Actually, I have a lot more than an idea. You have demonstrated your ignorance of what things are like in the Dominican Republic, then tried to cover up when you were called on it - unsuccessfully, I might add - and then tried to take refuge in an appeal to authority. Since you most likely have no idea of what I mean by that, /ad vercundiam/ is a rhetorical device often used to duck the real issues. This, and other similar devices (a.k.a. "logical fallacies") are taught in interrogation training - or, for civilians, in lots of other places (e.g., "How To Lie With Statistics", by Darnell Huff.) I suggest you study up; to anyone familiar with these devices, any attempt to distort the subject or redirect attention in those ways is pretty laughable. So - yeah, ignorance. You may well know a number of other things - although by making false claims and trying to prop them up, you throw doubt on that as well - but in regard to the Dominican Republic, you had no idea of what you were talking about. Ditto the electrical requirements of high-output lights. > Re: Tamada, > Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable [laugh] Hint: I'm a native speaker of Russian - and the word migrated into common Russian usage a long time ago (you, of course, would have no idea, but that's OK - it's definitely not the first time in this discussion.) My Georgian isn't all that great, but I guarantee you it's better than yours. I didn't need look up /Tamada/ in any dictionary; I've known the meaning of it since, oh, about 1967 or so. My father was often asked to be one when we were in Tbilisi - you've heard of the place, right? - Batumi, and a number of places in the mountains (I don't recall the names.) Perhaps _you_ should put down the Le Carre novel, eh? > Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use of weapons > always seem to go squirrely There is a good reason for the standard list-discussion warnings about guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to discuss those things rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage if they're not handled carefully. George Santayana was right, and will continue to be. > The human mind has a tendency to 'shut down' > or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with something it's never seen > before. People freeze and for those few seconds are terribly > vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' during those times > that usually wins out. Here, we agree. > All you have to do is plan, prepare, > and 'think' when the time comes and more often than not you'll be ok. ...and here we don't. What a surprise, right? As one of my teachers, Pendekar Paul de Thouars, used to say, "in a fight, he who thinks, stinks." Thinking up until the moment of the crunch is critically important, but if you haven't gamed the possible scenarios in your head a thousand times - i.e. planned the work and then worked the plan - you're going to lose. It's what they teach at Quantico, at Sandhurst, at the CIA farm, etc.; it's what all endurance training for Rangers, the SEAL teams, the SAS, etc. is intended to test. There's a good reason that this method has persisted since the days of the Roman army: it works. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11607|11517|2006-09-06 22:56:04|Aaron Williams|Sailboat security and or defence|As far as security The pee pee size won't matter much if you can't pull the trigger. And I don't want to find out if I can or would be willing to, so what are the other options? 1 High powered lights 2 Pepper spray 3 High powered lights plus pepper spray 4 Hydrogen bomb ( I like this idea) 5 Well built steel boat small windows strong hatches. What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? In daylight or if its dark. Aaron --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11608|11517|2006-09-06 23:04:34|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:44:27PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > too late, just now saw this. > and I disagree. At least as the topic started dealing with boat > security and design considerations contributing to that, I consider > that on topic. The discussions about language, Mongol horsemen, immigration, and the opinions of chair-bound bureacrats, however, are not; it's called "thread drift". When it's gone that far off-topic, I generally like to give the rest of the list a break from it - but people here have expressed interest. So, carry on; I'm willing to stick with it, at least as long as I don't get bored - or until someone here complains. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11609|11609|2006-09-06 23:05:41|dove2steel|How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems to fail. Really big in the fishing industry.| 11610|11517|2006-09-07 01:15:00|gschnell|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Hey Sugar!! You are more than welcome to visit. Love to meet you. Gord Sugar wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable | 11611|11609|2006-09-07 07:30:34|cirejay|Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dove2steel" wrote: > > Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems to > fail. Really big in the fishing industry. > The Northill works ok but I've found that a large candlepower flashlight or a pepper spray slick off of the stern (great for breaking seas also) works much better:-) Actually, I'm not familiar with them. I'll google and see what they are like. eric S/V Nebaras| 11612|11517|2006-09-07 07:46:20|cirejay|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > There is a good reason for the standard list-discussion warnings about > guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to discuss those things > rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage if they're not > handled carefully. Let me suggest that there is zero chance of not encountering flamage. On this and other groups it has always happened, generally, with the usual suspects. Please, ALL, it's time to end. The thread was toast a long time ago and I apologize for adding to the heat with my poor attempt at humor. eric Nebaras S/V Nebaras| 11613|11609|2006-09-07 08:47:01|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|---- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: I always had a large northill for a storm anchor It never failed to set under any conditions, but it never failed to leave a ding in the topsides. It needs a large bowsprit to use it without damage to your boat. Developed for the air force mike ps mne had a folding shank| 11614|11517|2006-09-07 09:46:24|Ray|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > In daylight or if its dark. > Aaron > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel boats thick enough to stop a bullet? If so, up to what size? Could it ram an offending vessel (assuming that the OTHER vessel wasn't metal - and that most 'pirate' boats are nowadays stolen fiberglass pleasurecraft)? As one who is dreaming of/planning for an early retirement, on a boat, sailing the world's seas, and NOT listening to other-than-weather newscasts, I'd like to design as much passive security into the vessel and my operation of it as I can, but, to still have SOME means of active resistance to unwanted intrusion at my disposal. Ray | 11615|11517|2006-09-07 10:42:32|Sugar|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Thanks Gord! Seer has been working on his boat project for awhile now. And he is one to try and make it right the first time. He told me that he enjoyed touring your boat and finally getting to meet you. I understand that your welding is "awesome". And it was such a great opportunity for him to see the raised floor of your pilot house, the size, where the engine sits and fits. Those things confirmed his thoughts on the way he wants to build his boat. I'm also looking forward to seeing some of your ideas in person. Thank you for the invite. We will meet. Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > Hey Sugar!! You are more than welcome to visit. Love to meet you. > Gord > > > Sugar wrote: > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > Encoding: quoted-printable > | 11616|11609|2006-09-07 12:32:35|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 11:30:25AM -0000, cirejay wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dove2steel" > wrote: > > > > Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems > to > > fail. Really big in the fishing industry. > > > The Northill works ok but I've found that a large candlepower > flashlight or a pepper spray slick off of the stern (great for breaking > seas also) works much better:-) Actually, a pepper spray slick off the stern that's lit up by a large flashlight is best of all. Please tune in next time when we figure out what it's best *for* (attracting bait? An ad for the Tabasco company? Dear readers, please send your ideas - 'cause we're definitely out!)... :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11617|11517|2006-09-07 12:41:16|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 11:40:47AM -0000, cirejay wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > > There is a good reason for the standard list-discussion warnings about > > guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to discuss those > things > > rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage if they're not > > handled carefully. > > Let me suggest that there is zero chance of not encountering flamage. Oh, I've actually participated in several threads that managed it - but all the participants were very clear on the usual outcome, and made an effort to avoid it. > On this and other groups it has always happened, generally, with the > usual suspects. > > Please, ALL, it's time to end. The thread was toast a long time ago > and I apologize for adding to the heat with my poor attempt at humor. Just a note: emoticons can be quite useful. Shannon's Law definitely holds true for email; it's a two-dimensional medium, and most of the meta-information (e.g., humor that is not clearly indicated as such) is often the _seed_ of problems. Beyond that, I agree - there's not much topical interest left in this thread. I'm done with it. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11618|11517|2006-09-07 13:16:10|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 01:38:04PM -0000, Ray wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > > In daylight or if its dark. > > Aaron > > > > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the > pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel > boats thick enough to stop a bullet? Depends on the round, but the answer is mostly "no". I played around with some .308AP (armor-piercing) ammo a number of years back, and established that on 1/8" steel, it didn't really matter whether you used AP or plain hardball - it all penetrated just fine. I was only testing it at short distances, though (60 feet, IIRC); there's obviously an envelope within which ballistic energy (i.e., bullet weight, shape, type and amount of propellant, distance, etc.) and bullet material will be enough to penetrate a given thickness of steel. > If so, up to what size? Could it > ram an offending vessel (assuming that the OTHER vessel wasn't metal - > and that most 'pirate' boats are nowadays stolen fiberglass > pleasurecraft)? Turning the situation around, the question becomes "if you have a firearm and a fast boat, can you disable/kill the operator of a sailboat (or avoid it) before it rams you?" The answer isn't all that favorable to the sailboat - so, again, I don't think that's a very workable approach. > As one who is dreaming of/planning for an early retirement, on a boat, > sailing the world's seas, and NOT listening to other-than-weather > newscasts, I'd like to design as much passive security into the vessel > and my operation of it as I can, but, to still have SOME means of > active resistance to unwanted intrusion at my disposal. The way my thinking goes is, unless you're sailing in something like the Red Sea - where the EPLF, etc. have held sailors for ransom - there's no reason to anticipate a shooting war (even then, you'd lose: they've got a lot more guns.) In essense, we cruisers get by on sufferance and by presenting a relatively inoffensive profile. Given that you're passing a checkpoint every time you come into a country, and that, at that checkpoint, your firearms are almost certainly going to be taken away while you're in-country (with extreme penalties for holding out), firearms aren't a very useful solution, in my opinion. That was a hard decision for me, BTW; I had a concealed-carry permit for quite a while, spent a couple of years pumping a hundred-plus rounds a day downrange, and carried as a matter of course. However, when I went cruising, all that got put aside, and I had to do a bunch of hard thinking about security without firearms. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11619|11517|2006-09-07 13:23:45|Sugar|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Great questions guys. I too would like an input from people. I would prefer to be aware of things that can happen and I would prefer to have some kind of plan of action and some good ideas of how to get out of a bad situation. I had a break-in last week. Yes someone busted the front door lock, broke in, ransacked everything and took what they wanted. Lucky for me I wasn't in the building. But things happen. Until about 4 years ago I really wasn't aware of all the pirating done on the ocean. Now it is a concern of mine. Sugar -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > > In daylight or if its dark. > > Aaron > > > > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the > pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel > boats thick enough to stop a bullet? If so, up to what size? Could it > ram an offending vessel (assuming that the OTHER vessel wasn't metal - > and that most 'pirate' boats are nowadays stolen fiberglass > pleasurecraft)? > > As one who is dreaming of/planning for an early retirement, on a boat, > sailing the world's seas, and NOT listening to other-than-weather > newscasts, I'd like to design as much passive security into the vessel > and my operation of it as I can, but, to still have SOME means of > active resistance to unwanted intrusion at my disposal. > > > > Ray > | 11620|11517|2006-09-07 13:50:59|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Whoops, managed to skip a beat there. On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 12:43:12PM -0400, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > > Just a note: emoticons can be quite useful. Shannon's Law definitely > holds true for email; it's a two-dimensional medium, and most of the > meta-information (e.g., humor that is not clearly indicated as such) is ^ being absent > often the _seed_ of problems. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 11621|11517|2006-09-07 21:08:58|peter_d_wiley|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 01:38:04PM -0000, Ray wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > > > In daylight or if its dark. > > > Aaron > > > > > > > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the > > pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel > > boats thick enough to stop a bullet? > > Depends on the round, but the answer is mostly "no". I played around > with some .308AP (armor-piercing) ammo a number of years back, and > established that on 1/8" steel, it didn't really matter whether you used > AP or plain hardball - it all penetrated just fine. I was only testing > it at short distances, though (60 feet, IIRC); there's obviously an > envelope within which ballistic energy (i.e., bullet weight, shape, type > and amount of propellant, distance, etc.) and bullet material will be > enough to penetrate a given thickness of steel. I've put a 7x57 Mauser FMJ round through 6mm of plate at 200m. In practical terms, a 5mm steel hull will stop most pistol rounds, anything of cast lead and pretty much nothing else. Must try a 7.62x39 one day as it's the cartridge of choice these days but I expect it'd blow through. PDW| 11622|11609|2006-09-07 23:17:42|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|Saw something on the news a while back for cars to get rid of Hijackers. Under the door on each side where burners with a electric valve and ignighter. It would shot flames up and out about 3'. One on each side of the main hatch should work. Fry babies. Jon > Dear readers, please send your ideas - 'cause we're definitely out!)... > :) > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11623|11517|2006-09-08 06:22:28|T & D Cain|Re: designed-in boat security|I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police person: --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of edward_stoneuk Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 6:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "seeratlas" wrote: > > I'll second what Alex said and Brent designed. One of the prime > considerations in a cruising boat is how well you can lock it up so > you can spend time somewhere else. > > seer Thats fair comment Seer. One is used to locking and setting the alarm on an automobile, when you leave it, and locking the doors when you drive through certain areas. A boat should have the same facility. I was brought up on a farm in the UK. We owned shotguns. My father's advice was if someone forced entry into the house and I felt there was no other way to stop them other than shooting them then to make sure that I shot them dead so that they could not argue the case in court, that I shot them in the front so that there would be no argument that I had shot them while they were escaping, and to shoot them so they fell inside the house so there was no argument that they were not a threat at the time. A subsequent case where a farmer ended up in prison after he shot dead a burglar in the back as he was fleeing across the yard showed this to be fair advice. The law in other parts of the world may be different as may be the law concerning boats. A good dog is an excellent security device. They are good alarms and single minded protective. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11624|11517|2006-09-08 09:45:23|khooper_fboats|Re: designed-in boat security|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police > person: > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. Hi Terry, It's very difficult to believe that any law enforcement professional would say something like that. Without getting afield, I have to say that if you think it might be a good idea to deliberately fire a round at the ceiling under any circumstances whatsoever then for heaven's sake, please, do not take a firearm onto a steel boat. Respectfully, --Ken| 11625|11517|2006-09-08 10:31:58|Dennis H. Rutledal|SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|Hi Havent been active on the forum before, and have been very quiet on this subject, as my experience here is non-existing. But one thing strikes me: All the counter meassures mentionet here seems to assume that there is only one or two attackers, and if there should be more they will enter the boat in a very dense group. Thus you can "elliminate" all attackers in one strike with flash, sound, flames etc. I would believe that if you are attacked by pirates in, they will usually be more than one. They will likely spread out, and will not nececarily all try to enter the boat. Thus, any countermeassures will effect only some of the pirates. That would probably piss them off quite a bit. The only worse thing then being attacked by pirates is being attacked by ANGRY pirates. Most of the time pirate attacks don't lead to killing. But if they are angry, upset and even injured.... - Dennis -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]På vegne av khooper_fboats Sendt: 8. september 2006 15:44 Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Emne: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police > person: > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. Hi Terry, It's very difficult to believe that any law enforcement professional would say something like that. Without getting afield, I have to say that if you think it might be a good idea to deliberately fire a round at the ceiling under any circumstances whatsoever then for heaven's sake, please, do not take a firearm onto a steel boat. Respectfully, --Ken [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11626|11626|2006-09-08 11:17:32|Aaron|Back to boat construction|Brent or Alex Is there any reason that the bottom of the skeg on Alex's boat looks longer not what the plans for the BS36 show. Aaron| 11627|22|2006-09-08 11:26:01|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /practical_sail_pdf_Jan_01 Anchor Reset Tests.pdf Uploaded by : akenai Description : Practical Sailer Anchor Test You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/practical_sail_pdf_Jan_01%20Anchor%20Reset%20Tests.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, akenai | 11628|11628|2006-09-08 11:45:32|Gordo|Engine controls|I just encountered the dilema of engine controls placement with tiller steering. I've visited all the postings on the subject. No "ideal" solutions. There just doesn't seem to be a "great" location for the cockpit controls. Any suggestions!! Gord| 11629|11517|2006-09-08 12:50:42|Jim Phillips|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|G'day At the risk of being flamed, I have to say that experience out on the oceans and talks in anchorages has shown that it is usually the American yachties who carry guns. I love you guys, but - wow! - some of you go a little over the top. This may have something to do with the US gun culture. It is also worth noting and leaving absolutley clear that the majority of American yachties do not carry guns, but the majority of gun-toting yachties are American. Anyway I have no doubt in my mind that some of the latter have chased off innocent, friendly fishermen with their John Wayne reactions. A smile and pack of cigarettes or (occasionally) a bottle of rum proffered when a 3rd world fisherman comes alongside is the quickest way to create a friendly situation. In a complete circumnavigation, we were robbed in our home port (Brisbane, Australia) of a dinghy and in Indonesia of a pair of thongs (flip-flops). On returning home, a bastard pirate in Brisbane stole the replacement dinghy. Ha ha, so watch out for that pirate-infested hell hole on the east coast of Australia![sarcasm] The words "pirate" and "thief" are interchangable. Think how many land-based pirates attacks occur in your own home town. And what about all the government-authorised pirates spread across the 1st and 3rd worlds, replete with badges and guns? They have always caused us many more problems with their bureaucracy, fees and crazy regulations. In fact, on another trip our most expensive pirate attack was in 2000 by a lunatic boatyard manager in Florida who shafted us and held our boat to ransom on the hard. Think about how you will confront the uniformed pirates before the un-uniformed ones. In 1993, we were sailing from Palau to Mindanao, Philippines (supposedly off limits due to pirate activity), the sun was just coming up behind me while the land was rising up ahead and I noticed two 20' open fishing boats coming up astern, one on either side. A friendly wave and a big smile from me, they came over, we swapped fish for cigarettes and everyone continued on their way. Even if they had been thinking of an attack, we altered the situation and the atmosphere before they could initiate it. Three (PLO?) boats confronted us coming in to Lebanon from Cyprus in early 1982, one was armed and stood 50 m off, while one tried to board and the third circled around. We hadn't got a sun sight in 3 days due to the cloud cover and were confused about our location. The Aussie embassy in Cyprus had told us not to go to Lebanon because the Israelis were massing on the border in preparation for an invasion and the embassy would not be able to help us if anything went wrong. So here we were, in the thick of it now. Wave, hello. "Smile, kids, look at the guns," my old man said to us. "Where is Jounieh?" he shouted at the locals. A pointed finger to the south. "Ok, thanks." And off we went. Pulling out weapons would have changed the situation drastically and the presence of children helped the situation not worsened it. There are plenty of marine "pirate" stories at www.noonsite.com . Also info about how people handled it. Last year there was an article in Cruising Helmsman about an attack near the Gulf of Aden where one of the attackers was rammed by a steel boat and disabled. Sorry to laugh, but some of the posts on this thread really just make me crack up. Surely it is better to discuss the topic with those that have been out there, not the armchairs warriors and wannabe cruisers. Unless it is your intention to create some humour, the creative ideas are just that - ideas. Far better to listen to what has worked or what has been installed and tested. Have fun and take it easy. It's a beautiful world out there. Jim. --------------------------------- On Yahoo!7 Fuel Price Watch - Find and map the cheapest petrol prices in Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11630|11517|2006-09-08 13:23:32|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: designed-in boat security|On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 01:44:09PM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police > > person: > > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > > Hi Terry, > > It's very difficult to believe that any law enforcement professional > would say something like that. Without getting afield, I have to say > that if you think it might be a good idea to deliberately fire a round > at the ceiling under any circumstances whatsoever then for heaven's > sake, please, do not take a firearm onto a steel boat. [laugh] Good thinking there, Ken. I've done a fair bit of practice with ricochet shots, and although most of them won't kill you, they will really, *really* hurt. Besides, it's likely to tear up your nice paint job (or overhead liner), and guess who's going to have to fix it? ;) Seriously: my personal take on it is, never, ever fire warning rounds - you just might come up short at the end of your magazine if you do. Warn loudly and explicitly by voice while aiming at your target (and don't let what your mouth is doing stop your trigger finger from reacting as necessary), but be willing to kill what you aim at - or don't ever raise that firearm. See also the "USMC Rules for Gunfighting" (random link, original quote replicated all over the Net): http://www.thegunzone.com/gunfighting.html It's a little cutesy, but most of it is solid advice. Overall, though: the number one winning strategy for real, lasting personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. Guns, etc. are what you use when the above fails - and that often means that you didn't do your homework. (Excellent thinking on the subject from a very smart cop: "Verbal Judo", by George J. Thompson.) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11631|11517|2006-09-08 13:27:37|steve rankin|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|Jim Phillips wrote: > G'day > > At the risk of being flamed, I have to say that experience out on the > oceans and talks in anchorages has shown that it is usually the > American yachties who carry guns. I love you guys, but - wow! - some > of you go a little over the top. This may have something to do with > the US gun culture. It is also worth noting and leaving absolutley > clear that the majority of American yachties do not carry guns, but > the majority of gun-toting yachties are American. Anyway I have no > doubt in my mind that some of the latter have chased off innocent, > friendly fishermen with their John Wayne reactions. > > A smile and pack of cigarettes or (occasionally) a bottle of rum > proffered when a 3rd world fisherman comes alongside is the quickest > way to create a friendly situation. > > In a complete circumnavigation, we were robbed in our home port > (Brisbane, Australia) of a dinghy and in Indonesia of a pair of thongs > (flip-flops). On returning home, a bastard pirate in Brisbane stole > the replacement dinghy. Ha ha, so watch out for that pirate-infested > hell hole on the east coast of Australia![sarcasm] > > The words "pirate" and "thief" are interchangable. Think how many > land-based pirates attacks occur in your own home town. And what about > all the government-authorised pirates spread across the 1st and 3rd > worlds, replete with badges and guns? They have always caused us many > more problems with their bureaucracy, fees and crazy regulations. In > fact, on another trip our most expensive pirate attack was in 2000 by > a lunatic boatyard manager in Florida who shafted us and held our boat > to ransom on the hard. > > Think about how you will confront the uniformed pirates before the > un-uniformed ones. > > In 1993, we were sailing from Palau to Mindanao, Philippines > (supposedly off limits due to pirate activity), the sun was just > coming up behind me while the land was rising up ahead and I noticed > two 20' open fishing boats coming up astern, one on either side. A > friendly wave and a big smile from me, they came over, we swapped fish > for cigarettes and everyone continued on their way. Even if they had > been thinking of an attack, we altered the situation and the > atmosphere before they could initiate it. > > Three (PLO?) boats confronted us coming in to Lebanon from Cyprus in > early 1982, one was armed and stood 50 m off, while one tried to board > and the third circled around. We hadn't got a sun sight in 3 days due > to the cloud cover and were confused about our location. The Aussie > embassy in Cyprus had told us not to go to Lebanon because the > Israelis were massing on the border in preparation for an invasion and > the embassy would not be able to help us if anything went wrong. So > here we were, in the thick of it now. Wave, hello. "Smile, kids, look > at the guns," my old man said to us. "Where is Jounieh?" he shouted at > the locals. A pointed finger to the south. "Ok, thanks." And off we > went. Pulling out weapons would have changed the situation drastically > and the presence of children helped the situation not worsened it. > > There are plenty of marine "pirate" stories at www.noonsite.com . Also > info about how people handled it. Last year there was an article in > Cruising Helmsman about an attack near the Gulf of Aden where one of > the attackers was rammed by a steel boat and disabled. > > Sorry to laugh, but some of the posts on this thread really just make > me crack up. Surely it is better to discuss the topic with those that > have been out there, not the armchairs warriors and wannabe cruisers. > Unless it is your intention to create some humour, the creative ideas > are just that - ideas. Far better to listen to what has worked or what > has been installed and tested. > > Have fun and take it easy. It's a beautiful world out there. > Jim. > > > > --------------------------------- > On Yahoo!7 > Fuel Price Watch - Find and map the cheapest petrol prices in Australia > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > > Finally some sanity..Thanks Jim. I have to add an andetote. Sailing up the Mallaca straits on the Malaysian side I was reading a Triston Jones account of the fisherman/pirates from that area. According to Jones you could identify these dangerous men by the fact that they fished with hookahs and traps that they herded the fish into. Lo and behold, soon after anchoring that evening a boat with 4 or 5 men aboard rafted along side with their traps and diving gear. We shared a beer, a smoke and they cook us all dinner on their boat over an open fire. I've never been able to think of Jones or read his stuff again without a hearty laff at his gaff! I will add that the skipper was a bit concerned at first as there was not a word of Malay that we knew or English on thir side. Steve| 11632|11517|2006-09-08 13:46:00|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 04:24:48PM +0200, Dennis H. Rutledal wrote: > Hi > > Havent been active on the forum before, and have been very quiet on this subject, as my experience here is non-existing. > > But one thing strikes me: > > All the counter meassures mentionet here seems to assume that there is only one or two attackers, and if there should be more they will enter the boat in a very dense group. Thus you can "elliminate" all attackers in one strike with flash, sound, flames etc. > > I would believe that if you are attacked by pirates in, they will usually be more than one. They will likely spread out, and will not nececarily all try to enter the boat. Thus, any countermeassures will effect only some of the pirates. That would probably piss them off quite a bit. > > The only worse thing then being attacked by pirates is being attacked by ANGRY pirates. Most of the time pirate attacks don't lead to killing. But if they are angry, upset and even injured.... Some of what you're saying makes a good amount of sense, Dennis; however, in my experience and training, the general assumption is that dealing with multiple targets _begins_ with the same tactics as dealing with a single target. From there, the options expand - but confining the enemy to a single chokepoint works well; see, e.g. Spartans at Thermopylae, Greeks at Salamis, the Japanese at Cape Esperance in WWII ("crossing the T" is a special case of chokepoint tactics), etc. I will also emphasize, though, that multiple target scenarios are extremely tough in practice - and surviving them, unless you're well-prepared, is a low-percentage proposition. Avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation are still your best friends. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11633|11517|2006-09-08 14:03:46|Paul|Re: designed-in boat security|> Seriously: my personal take on it is, never, ever fire warning rounds - > you just might come up short at the end of your magazine if you do. > Warn loudly and explicitly by voice while aiming at your target (and > don't let what your mouth is doing stop your trigger finger from > reacting as necessary), but be willing to kill what you aim at - or > don't ever raise that firearm. I always liked my grandfather's advice on warning shots - always fire two of them aimed directly at the center of the first target's chest, 12ga 000 buck preferred. Paul H| 11634|11517|2006-09-08 14:18:54|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|On Sat, Sep 09, 2006 at 02:50:01AM +1000, Jim Phillips wrote: > G'day > > At the risk of being flamed, I have to say that experience out on > the oceans and talks in anchorages has shown that it is usually the > American yachties who carry guns. That's my experience as well. Those that do always have the additional hassle of turning them in (or getting them bonded in a locker) when checking into a country, and getting them back on exiting - making them useless 98% of the time that they're interacting with people. > I love you guys, but - wow! - some of you go a little over the top. > This may have something to do with the US gun culture. It is also > worth noting and leaving absolutley clear that the majority of > American yachties do not carry guns, but the majority of gun-toting > yachties are American. Anyway I have no doubt in my mind that some of > the latter have chased off innocent, friendly fishermen with their > John Wayne reactions. It's not the guns, actually... it's the politically-mandated paranoia. :) I prefer to be friendly with the locals wherever I go, and take the trouble to learn at least a little of the language for the place I'm about to visit; in my experience, it makes a huge difference, far more than the 98%-absent guns ever could. > A smile and pack of cigarettes or (occasionally) a bottle of rum > proffered when a 3rd world fisherman comes alongside is the quickest > way to create a friendly situation. Offering to trade for some local product, rather than just giving things away, is my preferred method; it doesn't leave behind the impression that "yachties" are so rich that they can just give things away. Trade is, after all, the traditional and historical basis for friendly relations between countries... > In a complete circumnavigation, we were robbed in our home port > (Brisbane, Australia) of a dinghy and in Indonesia of a pair of > thongs (flip-flops). On returning home, a bastard pirate in > Brisbane stole the replacement dinghy. Ha ha, so watch out for that > pirate-infested hell hole on the east coast of Australia![sarcasm] > > The words "pirate" and "thief" are interchangable. Think how many > land-based pirates attacks occur in your own home town. And what > about all the government-authorised pirates spread across the 1st > and 3rd worlds, replete with badges and guns? They have always > caused us many more problems with their bureaucracy, fees and crazy > regulations. In fact, on another trip our most expensive pirate > attack was in 2000 by a lunatic boatyard manager in Florida who > shafted us and held our boat to ransom on the hard. > > Think about how you will confront the uniformed pirates before the > un-uniformed ones. Your experience mirrors mine to a great degree. I spent seven years sailing in the Caribbean - I'm still considering a circumnavigation, but haven't quite jumped that barrier yet - and consider the so-called "civilized" places to be the most dangerous ones of all. [laugh] I've had great experiences with some very evil-looking characters in out-of-the-way places, and they have pretty much always turned out to be good people; I wish I had a way of keeping in touch with quite a number of them. > In 1993, we were sailing from Palau to Mindanao, Philippines > (supposedly off limits due to pirate activity), the sun was just > coming up behind me while the land was rising up ahead and I noticed > two 20' open fishing boats coming up astern, one on either side. A > friendly wave and a big smile from me, they came over, we swapped > fish for cigarettes and everyone continued on their way. Even if > they had been thinking of an attack, we altered the situation and > the atmosphere before they could initiate it. > > Three (PLO?) boats confronted us coming in to Lebanon from Cyprus in > early 1982, one was armed and stood 50 m off, while one tried to > board and the third circled around. We hadn't got a sun sight in 3 > days due to the cloud cover and were confused about our location. > The Aussie embassy in Cyprus had told us not to go to Lebanon > because the Israelis were massing on the border in preparation for > an invasion and the embassy would not be able to help us if anything > went wrong. So here we were, in the thick of it now. Wave, hello. > "Smile, kids, look at the guns," my old man said to us. "Where is > Jounieh?" he shouted at the locals. A pointed finger to the south. > "Ok, thanks." And off we went. Pulling out weapons would have > changed the situation drastically and the presence of children > helped the situation not worsened it. > > There are plenty of marine "pirate" stories at www.noonsite.com . > Also info about how people handled it. Last year there was an > article in Cruising Helmsman about an attack near the Gulf of Aden > where one of the attackers was rammed by a steel boat and disabled. Thank you for relating your experiences here, Jim. Perhaps the direction that the overall discussion has taken is a bit off in the concept; I've been answering questions that imply violent scenarios, but have been careful to stress that avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation are the correct answers in the greatest percentage of the cases, but I don't know how much of that is being heard. > Sorry to laugh, but some of the posts on this thread really just > make me crack up. Surely it is better to discuss the topic with > those that have been out there, not the armchairs warriors and > wannabe cruisers. Unless it is your intention to create some > humour, the creative ideas are just that - ideas. Far better to > listen to what has worked or what has been installed and tested. > > Have fun and take it easy. It's a beautiful world out there. [smile] It is. Part of that beauty is how much the people in most other places are very much like us - in our ability to see and appreciate beauty, in our joy of interaction with our fellow humans, and in the nearly-universal desire to avoid violence and have peace and security in our lives. This is, by far, the greatest majority of what I have encountered in my cruising. Building a strong, secure boat that is well-protected from casual thieves is a good idea; so is rational thinking on the subject of security. The biggest challenges of cruising by far, though, are related to how much fun and enjoyment you can discover in a wonderfully-unfamiliar setting, and what kind of stories you can carry away in your memories. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11635|11635|2006-09-08 15:04:20|joe framer|Re: Digest Number 1651|Hello everyone, I am going to be traveling North from San Diego to Portland for the next 2 weeks and would relly like to look at some boats either finished or in progress. I tried to contact Tazman off list but haven't gotten a replied. We would be willing to go even further north if it meant seeing an origami boat in person. Thanks, Karl from Carolina --- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: --------------------------------- Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Frameless steel and aluminum yachts Messages In This Digest (21 Messages) 1a. WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic perspectives on personal From: Ray 1b. Re: WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic perspectives on personal From: Benjamin A. Okopnik 2a. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Sugar 2b. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas 2c. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Odd Nelsonsonsonsonson 2d. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas 2e. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Benjamin A. Okopnik 2f. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas 2g. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas 2h. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Sugar 2i. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas 2j. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Benjamin A. Okopnik 2k. Sailboat security and or defence From: Aaron Williams 2l. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Benjamin A. Okopnik 2m. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: gschnell 2n. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: cirejay 3. Re: Plastics & Portlights From: brentswain38 4a. Re: Fishermans Anchor From: peter_d_wiley 4b. Was: Fishermans Anchor Now: Has Brent made an update to his book yet From: Paul J. Thompson 5a. How about the good old Northhill Anchor? From: dove2steel 5b. Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor? From: cirejay View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages 1a. WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic perspectives on personal Posted by: "Ray" ray.kimbro@... raykimbro Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:01 am (PST) WARNING - No Steel Boat Content whatsoever - hit the delete key now if discussions of personal security don't interest you. While I understand both Ben's & SEER's perspectives, I won't weigh in on the correctness or appropriateness of either. They DO however, remind me of a story that I think others here might enjoy, whether they agree or are angered by it. **** Begin copied essay ******* ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D., author of "On Killing." "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?" William J. Bennett – in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million. Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators. "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out, somewhat, unscathed. Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial. The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and a little wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground. There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not just an animal, you are a person. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is fine, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door. For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the- belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones. I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?" Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?" It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness and horror at your moment of truth. Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa." This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the- sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth. Dave Grossman , LTC(ret) Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 1b. Re: WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic perspectives on personal Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" ben@... pectus_roboreus1 Wed Sep 6, 2006 5:36 pm (PST) On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 01:57:03PM -0000, Ray wrote: > WARNING - No Steel Boat Content whatsoever - hit the > delete key now if discussions of personal security don't interest > you. > > While I understand both Ben's & SEER's perspectives, I won't weigh > in on the correctness or appropriateness of either. They DO however, > remind me of a story that I think others here might enjoy, whether > they agree or are angered by it. > > **** Begin copied essay ******* > > ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS > > By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, > Ph.D., author of "On Killing." > > "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does > so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy > things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In > our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, > persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: > What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth > living for?" > William J. Bennett - > in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997 [snip] Thanks, Ray; I, for one, did enjoy it. Much of it reflects my own philosophy since the age of thirteen, something that I've refined and added to as the years have gone on. The only perspective that's missing from that quote is that of a moral stance: the thing that makes the difference between a terrorist and a warrior. The expressed sentiment is tremendously, vitally important - but the motivating force behind it, the position of *what* to defend, and which battles deserve our complete commitment, is usually the un-answered question in difficult situations. Blind adherence to dogma is, I believe, the true definition of evil. Honor is about being strong, and controling that strength for the benefit of others. It's about being worthy of being trusted. It's about having rules that mean that, even though you have the ability to hurt people, you choose not to hurt people, as much as you possibly can. It's about letting what you say be true, and making sure that what you promise happens. It's about living up to your word. It's about protecting those in your care. It's about letting one's gentleness temper one's capacity for violence, and about only letting violence happen in the service of gentleness. It's about believing that there's something more important than your own personal immediate comfort. -- Xiphias Gladius, on Usenet Vires et Honor, * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2a. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "Sugar" seeratlasangel@... seeratlasangel Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:53 am (PST) cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to know that he's not just blowing hot air. :) Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > you'd > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > eric S/V Nebaras > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2b. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "seeratlas" seeratlas@... seeratlas Wed Sep 6, 2006 11:11 am (PST) Sugar..hehehe unless I"m mistaken cirejay was being smugly sarcastic hehehehe. Oh, and your going to have to come up and see Gord's boat. :) And Gord too for that matter heheheh:). s --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" wrote: > > > cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in > weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is > true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in > his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about > himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be > mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to > know that he's not just blowing hot air. > :) > Sugar > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > > you'd > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2c. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "Odd Nelsonsonsonsonson" evrclear13@... daydrinker13 Wed Sep 6, 2006 11:24 am (PST) From: "Sugar" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 Nice email address... _______________________________________ "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -W.C. Fields "Pog gan croimbeal, ubh gan salann" -- a kiss without a beard is like an egg without salt. -Anon. "When the zucchini is plentiful, we make it in a crock. A treat to serve unexpected company." -Jack Calabro >From: "Sugar" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > >cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in >weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is >true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in >his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about >himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be >mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to >know that he's not just blowing hot air. >:) >Sugar > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > > you'd > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site. http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2d. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "seeratlas" seeratlas@... seeratlas Wed Sep 6, 2006 3:07 pm (PST) yep, we've known each other many years :) lots of stories there :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Odd Nelsonsonsonsonson" wrote: > > From: "Sugar" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > Nice email address... > > > _______________________________________ > > "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch?" -W.C. Fields > > "Pog gan croimbeal, ubh gan salann" -- a kiss without a beard is like an egg > without salt. > -Anon. > > "When the zucchini is plentiful, we make it in a crock. A treat to serve > unexpected company." > -Jack Calabro > > > > > > > >From: "Sugar" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > > > > >cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in > >weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is > >true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more in > >his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about > >himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may be > >mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to > >know that he's not just blowing hot air. > >:) > >Sugar > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > > > you'd > > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create your own personal Web site. > http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2e. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" ben@... pectus_roboreus1 Wed Sep 6, 2006 4:43 pm (PST) On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 08:12:28AM -0000, cirejay wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > you'd > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > hasn't done it should be quite something. Heck, I was just considering other people's sensibilities and following general list protocol (I've been on the Net from the early days; it's an old, ingrained habit.) I guess I don't mind that much on my own behalf if the other list members don't (something not yet established, but thanks for expressing your preference); I certainly stand behind every word I write, and although I don't claim to have done "absolutely everything", I've got forty-plus years of a life in which I've managed to avoid being bored for more than a few seconds at a time. Whatever seer's experience, though, my original point stands: ill-considered movie plots don't contribute to security; in-depth, multi-layered defense strategies do. For those interested in a professional treatment of the topic, I strongly suggest "Beyond Fear" by Bruce Schneier. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2f. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "seeratlas" seeratlas@... seeratlas Wed Sep 6, 2006 5:52 pm (PST) Interesting post. On the ports, definitely a tradeoff. Re the ports, You can look at a draft of my design in the files section. i think that's a reasonable balance. One thing I've wondered is why do all ports have to be flat? and therefore ill suited to take a broadside wave? It's not particularly difficult to 'bubble' plexi or lexan so as to get some curvature which would drastically increase the strength of the port in the face of a boarding sea..even a grating might breakup the water sufficiently to dissipate some of the force before impact..I'll have to think that one over. US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. As for canal/river, since you're relatively new to the group, you don't know that my boat is intended to go anywhere, but be able to handle the rivers and canals. Lots of design compromises but I'm not the first, and I think it can be done safely. On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly mentioned some sort of aircraft related light. In any event, when the time comes, I hope it works out for you. Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the one who suggested it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. First of all, its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, you can disguise it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be at least as effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a bit more mobile. Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using them, the stuff that has hit me in training was pretty disagreeable so I wouldn't dismiss that idea out of hand. My own observation related to the Barret which has substantially different capabilites and purposes. As for your opinion on the State Dept's opinons..well...I wouldn't be surprised if they placed an equal value on yours :) Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO idea..... Re: Tamada, Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable BUT best lose the 'Funk & Wagnall' and round up a real live Georgian :) the significance of such a selection under those circumstances, can be and turned out to be remarkable. 'toastmaster' didn't cover it :) C- eh? LOL Never got a "C" in anything in my life :) you're killin me here lol. Ok, enough of that :) Now, for everyone else, there are two aspects of advice, 1. Does the advice make any sense standing on its own? and 2. What is the experience level and intel of the guy/gal rendering it. Sometimes the common joe comes up with a helluva idea, and sometimes the Nobel guys couldn't get it farther wrong :) BUT, by assessing advice based on those two criteria, you Can reach decisions which can keep you from having to personally learn some bad things, in hard ways, which is why I brought this whole thing up in the first place. Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use of weapons always seem to go squirrely, just remember not everyone is Hulk Hogan and that's the point. As someone once said, (probably a cowboy hehe) god created all men, but it was Sam Colt who made em equal. Being able to defend yourself, your family and your boat in this present day world, is worth considering. And as Alex, Brent, and others have pointed out, it starts with planning, design, perhaps some training, preparation, and most of all, knowing in advance what you'd do in a given situation. The human mind has a tendency to 'shut down' or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with something it's never seen before. People freeze and for those few seconds are terribly vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' during those times that usually wins out. You don't have to be built like a football player, ex military, a 'martial arts' expert, or the world's best talk around negotiator.. All you have to do is plan, prepare, and 'think' when the time comes and more often than not you'll be ok. seer Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2g. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "seeratlas" seeratlas@... seeratlas Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:17 pm (PST) LOL Eric hehehe. It's true i've lived a very different life, and except for a few places where I encountered others like me, I used to take a bit of flack for it from those who weren't. But like I said, I'm old now, and somewhere along the way I quit apologizing for living my kind of life. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if > you'd > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are way off. > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, it's > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based upon his > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing he > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > eric S/V Nebaras > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2h. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "Sugar" seeratlasangel@... seeratlasangel Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:38 pm (PST) Yes Seer, that is the way I took what cirejay said but I just thought it was time to set the records straight. LOL And regarding seeing Gord's boat......it's on my to do list. Gord-looking forward to eventually meeting you and seeing your boat! Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Sugar..hehehe > > unless I"m mistaken cirejay was being smugly sarcastic hehehehe. > > Oh, and your going to have to come up and see Gord's boat. :) And > Gord too for that matter heheheh:). > > s > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > wrote: > > > > > > cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't talked to him in > > weeks. But I have known him and his family for many years. It is > > true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done and seen more > in > > his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told this site about > > himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real life. He may > be > > mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I wanted you to > > know that he's not just blowing hot air. > > :) > > Sugar > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on > this > > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it > if > > > you'd > > > > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this > is > > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > > > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I think you are > way off. > > > > > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to end but now, > it's > > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's reply. Based > upon his > > > years of experience and the fact that there is ansolutely nothing > he > > > hasn't done it should be quite something. > > > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2i. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "seeratlas" seeratlas@... seeratlas Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:26 pm (PST) too late, just now saw this. and I disagree. At least as the topic started dealing with boat security and design considerations contributing to that, I consider that on topic. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss with me on this > subject, I (and probably many others here) would appreciate it if you'd > take it to private email from here forward. I don't think this is > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2j. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" ben@... pectus_roboreus1 Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:40 pm (PST) On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:41:42PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. Yep. 204th OpFor/9th MI (Military Intelligence), Ft. Lewis, certainly appreciated my facility with Russian; in fact, I spent a fair amount of my enlistment wearing a Russian uniform (well, approximately...) and teaching Soviet TO&E to the troops - and "destroying" their resources (that's including 3/75 Ranger Bn.) in the field. > On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly mentioned some sort > of aircraft related light. I did. Does it being an aircraft landing light magically change the watts-per-candlepower ratio? That would be a new one on me - and on anyone else who understands basic electricity/electronics. > Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the one who suggested > it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. First of all, > its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, you can disguise > it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be at least as > effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a bit more mobile. Not if it's not where they are. Thus my point, which you keep avoiding. The stern only covers a few degrees out of the 360 that define the boat perimeter; there's no reason to assume that this is where the attacker is going to come in. The companion, by contrast, _is_ such a choke point (unless you assume unlocked, unprotected hatches - in which case, your security was compromised to start with.) *Carrying* pepper spray may very well be an excellent idea - but, again, only as a part of a carefully-considered defensive strategy. It's not a magic wand; for that matter, neither is a gun. > Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using them Not by attaching them to the sterns of their boats, I'll guarantee you. > Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO idea..... Actually, I have a lot more than an idea. You have demonstrated your ignorance of what things are like in the Dominican Republic, then tried to cover up when you were called on it - unsuccessfully, I might add - and then tried to take refuge in an appeal to authority. Since you most likely have no idea of what I mean by that, /ad vercundiam/ is a rhetorical device often used to duck the real issues. This, and other similar devices (a.k.a. "logical fallacies") are taught in interrogation training - or, for civilians, in lots of other places (e.g., "How To Lie With Statistics", by Darnell Huff.) I suggest you study up; to anyone familiar with these devices, any attempt to distort the subject or redirect attention in those ways is pretty laughable. So - yeah, ignorance. You may well know a number of other things - although by making false claims and trying to prop them up, you throw doubt on that as well - but in regard to the Dominican Republic, you had no idea of what you were talking about. Ditto the electrical requirements of high-output lights. > Re: Tamada, > Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable [laugh] Hint: I'm a native speaker of Russian - and the word migrated into common Russian usage a long time ago (you, of course, would have no idea, but that's OK - it's definitely not the first time in this discussion.) My Georgian isn't all that great, but I guarantee you it's better than yours. I didn't need look up /Tamada/ in any dictionary; I've known the meaning of it since, oh, about 1967 or so. My father was often asked to be one when we were in Tbilisi - you've heard of the place, right? - Batumi, and a number of places in the mountains (I don't recall the names.) Perhaps _you_ should put down the Le Carre novel, eh? > Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use of weapons > always seem to go squirrely There is a good reason for the standard list-discussion warnings about guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to discuss those things rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage if they're not handled carefully. George Santayana was right, and will continue to be. > The human mind has a tendency to 'shut down' > or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with something it's never seen > before. People freeze and for those few seconds are terribly > vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' during those times > that usually wins out. Here, we agree. > All you have to do is plan, prepare, > and 'think' when the time comes and more often than not you'll be ok. ...and here we don't. What a surprise, right? As one of my teachers, Pendekar Paul de Thouars, used to say, "in a fight, he who thinks, stinks." Thinking up until the moment of the crunch is critically important, but if you haven't gamed the possible scenarios in your head a thousand times - i.e. planned the work and then worked the plan - you're going to lose. It's what they teach at Quantico, at Sandhurst, at the CIA farm, etc.; it's what all endurance training for Rangers, the SEAL teams, the SAS, etc. is intended to test. There's a good reason that this method has persisted since the days of the Roman army: it works. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2k. Sailboat security and or defence Posted by: "Aaron Williams" akenai@... akenai Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:56 pm (PST) As far as security The pee pee size won't matter much if you can't pull the trigger. And I don't want to find out if I can or would be willing to, so what are the other options? 1 High powered lights 2 Pepper spray 3 High powered lights plus pepper spray 4 Hydrogen bomb ( I like this idea) 5 Well built steel boat small windows strong hatches. What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? In daylight or if its dark. Aaron --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2l. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" ben@... pectus_roboreus1 Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:04 pm (PST) On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:44:27PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > too late, just now saw this. > and I disagree. At least as the topic started dealing with boat > security and design considerations contributing to that, I consider > that on topic. The discussions about language, Mongol horsemen, immigration, and the opinions of chair-bound bureacrats, however, are not; it's called "thread drift". When it's gone that far off-topic, I generally like to give the rest of the list a break from it - but people here have expressed interest. So, carry on; I'm willing to stick with it, at least as long as I don't get bored - or until someone here complains. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2m. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "gschnell" gschnell@... withamazinggrace Wed Sep 6, 2006 10:15 pm (PST) Hey Sugar!! You are more than welcome to visit. Love to meet you. Gord Sugar wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 2n. Re: Trip to Whidbey :) Posted by: "cirejay" cirejay@... cirejay Thu Sep 7, 2006 4:46 am (PST) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > There is a good reason for the standard list-discussion warnings about > guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to discuss those things > rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage if they're not > handled carefully. Let me suggest that there is zero chance of not encountering flamage. On this and other groups it has always happened, generally, with the usual suspects. Please, ALL, it's time to end. The thread was toast a long time ago and I apologize for adding to the heat with my poor attempt at humor. eric Nebaras S/V Nebaras Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 3. Re: Plastics & Portlights Posted by: "brentswain38" brentswain38@... brentswain38 Wed Sep 6, 2006 4:58 pm (PST) Friends left BC with hard surfaced lexan. By the time they got to Frisco it had all peeled off like old varnish. The spent the rest of the trip around the pacific looking thru foggy windows. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > Hi I'm new to this group. I mainly have built in wood but weld and > was told about this group and the origami boat concept. > > A number of years ago I worked at a very secure facility that had > huge lexan front windows. It was a shelter for abused kids and they > were trying to make the place really secure while not making it feel > like a prison. As I remember, they had a thin gold colored coating > that was supposed to keep them from breaking down in sunlight. > Perhaps with the same coating lexan portlights would last longer, > though saltwater may defeat this coating. > > Paul Hardy > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 02:07:01PM -0000, khooper_fboats wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > > > > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is the Goiot (sp?), > strong, > > > > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to allow it to open > in all > > > > four directions. > > > > > > What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know it is supposed > to be > > > much stronger than acrylic and significantly softer (and more > > > expensive) as well. But I was doing some research into it and > Lexan > > > seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when it comes to > portlights. > > > > Acrylic, in my experience, crazes and "rots" in the sun - > especially > > when you get into places where the sun beats down, like the > Caribbean. I > > had a 3/8" acrylic skylight that came with the boat which collapsed > > while I was standing on it (chewed up my leg pretty well, too, but > I was > > lucky enough to miss the really bad jagged spikes - especially > since I > > went through it all the way to the hip.) I replaced it with 3/8" > Lexan, > > and that's been standing up pretty well for, oh, going on 7 years > now. > > (It's just starting to show a little surface crazing in one > corner, so > > perhaps that's the useful span of Lexan in the Caribbean/Florida > sun.) > > > > > What I was seeing (I can probably find the numbers again if > needed) is > > > that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing impact point > loads, > > > its tensile strength is not any higher than acrylic, comparing > dollars > > > to dollars. That is, if you are going to be firing bullets at > your > > > portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; if you want > them to > > > bear the weight when taking green water across the deck, then > dollar > > > for dollar you can get about twice the tensile strength for the > same > > > investment in acrylic. > > > > > > Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that looks > interesting, now > > > available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this is substantially > less > > > expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in boatbuilding? > > > > Pretty decent boat-related article about the various plastics: > > > > http://www.ez2cy.com/other_enclosures/mystery.html > > > > > I know the price of it doesn't matter that much in smaller > boats, but > > > in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, especially if > you are > > > thinking about skylights and dealing with material more than an > inch > > > thick, it starts to add up fast! > > > > I'm definitely interested in seeing how this shakes out, since > I'll be > > replacing that skylight (and have been thinking about upgrading my > > too-thin lights...) soon. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (48) 4a. Re: Fishermans Anchor Posted by: "peter_d_wiley" peter_d_wiley@... peter_d_wiley Wed Sep 6, 2006 5:02 pm (PST) I'll ask Tom what he thinks about this. If he's happy for me to post a copy, fine. Otherwise, not. It's an intellectual property issue. I doubt Brent, for example, would be happy if someone posted a scan of the section of his book on building a stove. I have an earlier copy of Brent's book & haven't got around to buying another one. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > > I too would be interested in such plans, please. > > Thank you, > Courtney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter_d_wiley" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:32 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fishermans Anchor > > > > In the set of plans I got off of Tom Colvin he included a design for an > all welded fisherman > > type anchor. Write to him & ask if he'll give/sell you a copy. I haven't > made one yet but I > > plan on it. Cheap & strong but easily replaceable so if it has to go - > shrug. Long as it > > works when you need it. > > > > PDW > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat Herreshoff (sp?) one > > > which i think you might be able to research on the net. Seems to me I > > > saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials etc. on some of his > > > plans which were available on the net at one time. If not check for > > > someone who has one of his design books. > > > > > > Second, watch out using this thing in any kind of 'yachty or commercial > > > harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, refrigerators or wrecks > > > like crazy and to free one often means going over the side, which in > > > most commercial harbors is something you do NOT want to do, for bio > > > related reasons primarily. > > > > > > Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot of people with great > > > great big breakdown types that they use as 'hurricane hooks' as when > > > they get hold of something, they only grudgingly let go :) > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have just started getting materials to build a fishermans anchor, > > > > (the traditional type of anchor that appears on cap badges etc. I > > > was > > > > thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for some of it. The idea > > > > is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where other types would > > > skitter > > > > along. I live some way from the sea so cannot measure up an existing > > > > anchor. Does any one have any info on the angles and ratios used? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (8) 4b. Was: Fishermans Anchor Now: Has Brent made an update to his book yet Posted by: "Paul J. Thompson" pault@... lachica31 Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:06 pm (PST) Which reminds me, has Brent issued a new copy of his book? I bought mine about 3 - 4 years ago and if he has revised it, I would certainly want a copy of the latest edition. By the way Brent, I know that you are always improving an also developing new ideas and ways of doing things. What about doing an addendum to your book every now and again? I and I am sure many others on this list would be more than willing to pay for it. Regards, Paul peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > I have an earlier > copy of Brent's book & haven't got around to buying another one. > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (8) 5a. How about the good old Northhill Anchor? Posted by: "dove2steel" dove2steel@... dove2steel Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:05 pm (PST) Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems to fail. Really big in the fishing industry. Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2) 5b. Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor? Posted by: "cirejay" cirejay@... cirejay Thu Sep 7, 2006 4:30 am (PST) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dove2steel" wrote: > > Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems to > fail. Really big in the fishing industry. > The Northill works ok but I've found that a large candlepower flashlight or a pepper spray slick off of the stern (great for breaking seas also) works much better:-) Actually, I'm not familiar with them. I'll google and see what they are like. eric S/V Nebaras Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2) New Message Search Find the message

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)| 11636|11635|2006-09-08 19:18:43|tom|Re: Digest Number 1651|Hello Karl I did reply to youre message, anyway youre more than welcome to come by and take a look. I live in a lttle town called Yettem its about 40 miles south of Fresno, Try to email me directly again and I will send you address and phone # Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe framer" To: "No Reply" ; Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Digest Number 1651 > Hello everyone, > > I am going to be traveling North from San Diego to > Portland for the next 2 weeks and would relly like to > look at some boats either finished or in progress. I > tried to contact Tazman off list but haven't gotten a > replied. We would be willing to go even further north > if it meant seeing an origami boat in person. > Thanks, Karl from Carolina > > --- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > --------------------------------- > Frameless steel and aluminum yachts > Frameless steel and aluminum yachts > Messages In This Digest (21 > Messages) > > 1a. > WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic > perspectives on personal From: Ray > > 1b. > Re: WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - Off Topic > perspectives on personal From: Benjamin A. > Okopnik > > 2a. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Sugar > > 2b. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas > > 2c. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Odd > Nelsonsonsonsonson > 2d. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas > > 2e. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Benjamin A. > Okopnik > 2f. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas > > 2g. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas > > 2h. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Sugar > > 2i. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: seeratlas > > 2j. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Benjamin A. > Okopnik > 2k. > Sailboat security and or defence From: > Aaron Williams > 2l. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: Benjamin A. > Okopnik > 2m. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: gschnell > > 2n. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) From: cirejay > > 3. > Re: Plastics & Portlights From: > brentswain38 > > 4a. > Re: Fishermans Anchor From: peter_d_wiley > > 4b. > Was: Fishermans Anchor Now: Has Brent made an > update to his book yet From: Paul J. Thompson > > 5a. > How about the good old Northhill Anchor? From: > dove2steel > 5b. > Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor? > From: cirejay > View All Topics | Create New Topic > > Messages > 1a. > WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) - > Off Topic perspectives on personal Posted > by: "Ray" ray.kimbro@... > raykimbro > Wed Sep 6, 2006 7:01 am (PST) > WARNING - No Steel Boat > Content whatsoever - hit the > delete key now if discussions of personal security > don't interest > you. > > While I understand both Ben's & SEER's perspectives, I > won't weigh > in on the correctness or appropriateness of either. > They DO however, > remind me of a story that I think others here might > enjoy, whether > they agree or are angered by it. > > **** Begin copied essay ******* > > ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS > > By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, > Ph.D., author of "On Killing." > > "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart > of age. It does > so because honor is, finally, about defending those > noble and worthy > things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a > high cost. In > our time, that may mean social disapproval, public > scorn, hardship, > persecution, or as always, even death itself. The > question remains: > What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What > is worth > living for?" > William J. Bennett - > in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy > November 24, 1997 > > One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said > this to > me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They > are kind, > gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one > another by > accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is > six per > 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is > four per 1,000 > per year. What this means is that the vast majority of > Americans are > not inclined to hurt one another. > > Some estimates say that two million Americans are > victims of violent > crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, > perhaps an all-time > record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 > million > Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim > of violent > crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on > any given year. > Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed > by repeat > offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is > considerably > less than two million. > > Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends > of the > situation: We may well be in the most violent times in > history, but > violence is still remarkably rare. This is because > most citizens are > kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting > each other, > except by accident or under extreme provocation. They > are sheep. > > I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, > it is like the > pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey > but someday it > will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot > survive > without its hard blue shell. > > Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like > that shell, > and someday the civilization they protect will grow > into something > wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to > protect them from > the predators. > > "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, > "and the > wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you > believe there are > wolves out there who will feed on the flock without > mercy? You > better believe it. There are evil men in this world > and they are > capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or > pretend it is > not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in > denial. > > "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a > sheepdog. I live > to protect the flock and confront the wolf." > > If you have no capacity for violence then you are a > healthy > productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity > for violence and > no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have > defined an > aggressive sociopath, a wolf. > > But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a > deep love for > your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A > sheepdog, a warrior, > someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who > can walk into > the heart of darkness, into the universal human > phobia, and walk > out, somewhat, unscathed. > > Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of > the sheep, > wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in > denial, that > is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe > that there is > evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires > can happen, > which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire > sprinklers, fire > alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. > > But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting > an armed police > officer in their kid's school. Our children are > thousands of times > more likely to be killed or seriously injured by > school violence > than fire, but the sheep's only response to the > possibility of > violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill > or harm their > child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of > denial. > > The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks > a lot like > the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. > The > difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can > not and will > not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who > intentionally harms the > lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The > world cannot > work any other way, at least not in a representative > democracy or a > republic such as ours. > > Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a > constant reminder > that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer > that he didn't > tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, > or stand at the > ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding > an M-16. The > sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his > fangs, spray > paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf > shows up. Then > the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one > lonely > sheepdog. > > The students, the victims, at Columbine High School > were big, tough > high school students, and under ordinary circumstances > they would > not have had the time of day for a police officer. > They were not bad > kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the > school was > under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing > the rooms and > hallways, the officers had to physically peel those > clinging, > sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs > feel about > their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. > > Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when > the wolf pounded > hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever > before, felt > differently about their law enforcement officers and > military > personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word > hero? > > Understand that there is nothing morally superior > about being a > sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also > understand that a > sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing > around out on the > perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that > go bump in > the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That > is, the young > sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old > sheepdogs are a > little older and a little wiser, but they move to the > sound of the > guns when needed, right along with the young ones. > > Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think > differently. The sheep > pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog > lives for that > day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of > the sheep, > that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I > wasn't on one > of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, > "Dear God, I > wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I > could have > made a difference." When you are truly transformed > into a warrior > and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you > want to be > there. You want to be able to make a difference. > > There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, > the warrior, > but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And > that is that he > is able to survive and thrive in an environment that > destroys 98 > percent of the population. > > There was research conducted a few years ago with > individuals > convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison > for serious, > predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and > killing law > enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they > specifically > targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, > passive behavior > and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like > big cats do in > Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is > least able to > protect itself. > > Some people may be destined to be sheep and others > might be > genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I > believe that > most people can choose which one they want to be, and > I'm proud to > say that more and more Americans are choosing to > become sheepdogs. > > Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, > Todd Beamer was > honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, > as you > recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who > called on his > cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines > about the > hijacking. When he learned of the other three > passenger planes that > had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and > uttered the > words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a > signal to the > other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. > In one hour, a > transformation occurred among the passengers - > athletes, business > people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and > together they > fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number > of lives on > the ground. > > There is no safety for honest men except by believing > all possible > evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke > > Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to > the thousands > of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. > In nature the > sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are > born that way, > and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you > are not just > an animal, you are a person. As a human being, you can > be whatever > you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. > > If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and > that is fine, > but you must understand the price you pay. When the > wolf comes, you > and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a > sheepdog > there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you > can be one, but > the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will > never have > rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a > sheepdog and > walk the warrior's path, then you must make a > conscious and moral > decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare > yourself to thrive > in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes > knocking at the > door. > > For example, many officers carry their weapons in > church. They are > well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or > inside-the- > belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. > Anytime you go > to some form of religious service, there is a very > good chance that > a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You > will never > know if there is such an individual in your place of > worship, until > the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones. > > I was training a group of police officers in Texas, > and during the > break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his > weapon in > church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught > without my > gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about > this, and he > told me about a cop he knew who was at a church > massacre in Ft. > Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally > deranged > individual came into the church and opened fire, > gunning down > fourteen people. He said that officer believed he > could have saved > every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. > His own son was > shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the > boy's body and > wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, > "Do you have > any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself > after that?" > > Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this > police officer > was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him > paranoid and > would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals > would be > enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they > found out that > the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the > fire > extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school > did not work. > They can accept the fact that fires and traffic > accidents can happen > and that there must be safeguards against them. > > Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, > and all too > often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and > disdain. But the > sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea > how hard it > would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were > attacked and > killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because > you were > unprepared for that day?" > > It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are > psychologically > destroyed by combat because their only defense is > denial, which is > counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, > helplessness > and horror when the wolf shows up. > > Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your > moment of truth > when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring > your gun, you > didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. > Hope is not a > strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even > if you do > physically survive, you are psychologically shattered > by your fear, > helplessness and horror at your moment of truth. > > Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his > superb post-9/11 > book, which should be required reading for anyone > trying to come to > terms with our current world situation: "...denial can > be seductive, > but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace > of mind > deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall > they take > when faced with new violence is all the more > unsettling." > > Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract > written entirely > in small print, for in the long run, the denying > person knows the > truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to > confront > denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself > for the day > when evil comes. > > If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry > a weapon and > you step outside without that weapon, then you become > a sheep, > pretending that the bad man will not come today. No > one can be "on" > 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if > you are > authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside > without it, just > take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa." > > This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a > yes-no > dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or > choice. It is a > matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an > abject, head-in-the- > sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate > warrior. Few people > exist completely on one end or the other. > > Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 > almost everyone in > America took a step up that continuum, away from > denial. The sheep > took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating > their warriors, > and the warriors started taking their job more > seriously. The degree > to which you move up that continuum, away from > sheephood and denial, > is the degree to which you and your loved ones will > survive, > physically and psychologically at your moment of > truth. > > Dave Grossman , LTC(ret) > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 1b. > Re: WAS: Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > - Off Topic perspectives on personal > Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > ben@... > pectus_roboreus1 Wed > Sep 6, 2006 5:36 pm (PST) On > Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 01:57:03PM -0000, Ray wrote: >> WARNING - No Steel Boat Content > whatsoever - hit the >> delete key now if discussions of personal security > don't interest >> you. >> >> While I understand both Ben's & SEER's perspectives, > I won't weigh >> in on the correctness or appropriateness of either. > They DO however, >> remind me of a story that I think others here might > enjoy, whether >> they agree or are angered by it. >> >> **** Begin copied essay ******* >> >> ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS >> >> By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, >> Ph.D., author of "On Killing." >> >> "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart > of age. It does >> so because honor is, finally, about defending those > noble and worthy >> things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a > high cost. In >> our time, that may mean social disapproval, public > scorn, hardship, >> persecution, or as always, even death itself. The > question remains: >> What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? > What is worth >> living for?" >> William J. Bennett - >> in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy > November 24, 1997 > > [snip] Thanks, Ray; I, for one, did enjoy it. Much of > it reflects my own > philosophy since the age of thirteen, something that > I've refined and > added to as the years have gone on. > > The only perspective that's missing from that quote is > that of a moral > stance: the thing that makes the difference between a > terrorist and a > warrior. The expressed sentiment is tremendously, > vitally important - > but the motivating force behind it, the position of > *what* to defend, > and which battles deserve our complete commitment, is > usually the > un-answered question in difficult situations. Blind > adherence to dogma > is, I believe, the true definition of evil. > > Honor is about being strong, and controling that > strength for the benefit > of others. It's about being worthy of being > trusted. It's about having > rules that mean that, even though you have the > ability to hurt people, you > choose not to hurt people, as much as you possibly > can. > > It's about letting what you say be true, and > making sure that what you > promise happens. It's about living up to your > word. It's about > protecting those in your care. It's about letting > one's gentleness temper > one's capacity for violence, and about only > letting violence happen in the > service of gentleness. > > It's about believing that there's something more > important than your own > personal immediate comfort. > > -- Xiphias Gladius, on Usenet > > Vires et Honor, > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2a. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "Sugar" > seeratlasangel@... > seeratlasangel Wed > Sep 6, 2006 7:53 am (PST) > cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't > talked to him in > weeks. But I have known him and his family for many > years. It is > true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done > and seen more in > his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told > this site about > himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real > life. He may be > mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I > wanted you to > know that he's not just blowing hot air. > :) > Sugar > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" > wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" >> wrote: >> > >> > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss > with me on this >> > subject, I (and probably many others here) would > appreciate it if >> you'd >> > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think this is >> > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. >> >> Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I > think you are way off. >> >> When this first started I couldn't wait for it to > end but now, it's >> gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based upon his >> years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely nothing he >> hasn't done it should be quite something. >> >> eric S/V Nebaras >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2b. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "seeratlas" > seeratlas@... > seeratlas Wed Sep 6, > 2006 11:11 am (PST) > Sugar..hehehe > > unless I"m mistaken cirejay was being smugly sarcastic > hehehehe. > > Oh, and your going to have to come up and see Gord's > boat. :) And > Gord too for that matter heheheh:). > > s > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > > wrote: >> >> >> cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't > talked to him in >> weeks. But I have known him and his family for many > years. It is >> true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has > done and seen more > in >> his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told > this site about >> himself is true, infact he usally plays down his > real life. He may > be >> mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I > wanted you to >> know that he's not just blowing hot air. >> :) >> Sugar >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" > wrote: >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to > discuss with me on > this >> > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would > appreciate it > if >> > you'd >> > > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think this > is >> > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this > list. >> > >> > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I > think you are > way off. >> > >> > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to > end but now, > it's >> > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based > upon his >> > years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely nothing > he >> > hasn't done it should be quite something. >> > >> > eric S/V Nebaras >> > >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2c. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "Odd Nelsonsonsonsonson" > evrclear13@... > daydrinker13 Wed > Sep 6, 2006 11:24 am (PST) > From: "Sugar" >>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >>Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 > > Nice email address... > > _______________________________________ > > "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my > lunch?" -W.C. Fields > > "Pog gan croimbeal, ubh gan salann" -- a kiss without > a beard is like an egg > without salt. > -Anon. > > "When the zucchini is plentiful, we make it in a > crock. A treat to serve > unexpected company." > -Jack Calabro > >>From: "Sugar" >>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >>Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 >> >> >>cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't > talked to him in >>weeks. But I have known him and his family for many > years. It is >>true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has done > and seen more in >>his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told > this site about >>himself is true, infact he usally plays down his real > life. He may be >>mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but I > wanted you to >>know that he's not just blowing hot air. >>:) >>Sugar >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" > wrote: >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to > discuss with me on this >> > > subject, I (and probably many others here) would > appreciate it if >> > you'd >> > > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think this is >> > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this > list. >> > >> > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I > think you are way off. >> > >> > When this first started I couldn't wait for it to > end but now, it's >> > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based upon his >> > years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely nothing he >> > hasn't done it should be quite something. >> > >> > eric S/V Nebaras >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > __________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create your > own personal Web site. > http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2d. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "seeratlas" > seeratlas@... > seeratlas Wed Sep 6, > 2006 3:07 pm (PST) yep, > we've known each other many years :) lots of stories > there :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Odd > Nelsonsonsonsonson" > wrote: >> >> From: "Sugar" >> >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >> >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 >> >> Nice email address... >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> >> "What contemptible scoundrel stole the cork from my > lunch?" -W.C. > Fields >> >> "Pog gan croimbeal, ubh gan salann" -- a kiss > without a beard is > like an egg >> without salt. >> -Anon. >> >> "When the zucchini is plentiful, we make it in a > crock. A treat to > serve >> unexpected company." >> -Jack Calabro >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >From: "Sugar" >> >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Trip to Whidbey :) >> >Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 14:51:21 -0000 >> > >> > >> >cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't > talked to him in >> >weeks. But I have known him and his family for > many years. It is >> >true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has > done and seen > more in >> >his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told > this site about >> >himself is true, infact he usally plays down his > real life. He > may be >> >mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but > I wanted you to >> >know that he's not just blowing hot air. >> >:) >> >Sugar >> > >> > >> >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" > wrote: >> > > >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin > A. Okopnik" > >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to > discuss with me on > this >> > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) > would appreciate > it if >> > > you'd >> > > > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think > this is >> > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this > list. >> > > >> > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one > I think you are > way off. >> > > >> > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it > to end but now, > it's >> > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based > upon his >> > > years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely > nothing he >> > > hasn't done it should be quite something. >> > > >> > > eric S/V Nebaras >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > __________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create > your own personal > Web site. >> http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2e. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > ben@... > pectus_roboreus1 Wed > Sep 6, 2006 4:43 pm (PST) On > Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 08:12:28AM -0000, cirejay wrote: >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" >> wrote: >> > >> > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss > with me on this >> > subject, I (and probably many others here) would > appreciate it if >> you'd >> > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think this is >> > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. >> >> Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I > think you are way off. >> >> When this first started I couldn't wait for it to > end but now, it's >> gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based upon his >> years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely nothing he >> hasn't done it should be quite something. > > Heck, I was just considering other people's > sensibilities and following > general list protocol (I've been on the Net from the > early days; it's an > old, ingrained habit.) I guess I don't mind that much > on my own behalf > if the other list members don't (something not yet > established, but > thanks for expressing your preference); I certainly > stand behind every > word I write, and although I don't claim to have done > "absolutely > everything", I've got forty-plus years of a life in > which I've managed > to avoid being bored for more than a few seconds at a > time. > > Whatever seer's experience, though, my original point > stands: > ill-considered movie plots don't contribute to > security; in-depth, > multi-layered defense strategies do. For those > interested in a > professional treatment of the topic, I strongly > suggest "Beyond Fear" by > Bruce Schneier. > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2f. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "seeratlas" > seeratlas@... > seeratlas Wed Sep 6, > 2006 5:52 pm (PST) > Interesting post. > On the ports, definitely a tradeoff. Re the ports, You > can look at a > draft of my design in the files section. i think > that's a reasonable > balance. One thing I've wondered is why do all ports > have to be flat? > and therefore ill suited to take a broadside wave? > It's not > particularly difficult to 'bubble' plexi or lexan so > as to get some > curvature which would drastically increase the > strength of the port > in the face of a boarding sea..even a grating might > breakup the water > sufficiently to dissipate some of the force before > impact..I'll have > to think that one over. > > US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. > > As for canal/river, since you're relatively new to the > group, you > don't know that my boat is intended to go anywhere, > but be able to > handle the rivers and canals. Lots of design > compromises but I'm not > the first, and I think it can be done safely. > > On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly > mentioned some sort > of aircraft related light. In any event, when the time > comes, I hope > it works out for you. > > Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the > one who suggested > it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. > First of all, > its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, > you can disguise > it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be at > least as > effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a bit > more mobile. > Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using > them, the stuff > that has hit me in training was pretty disagreeable so > I wouldn't > dismiss that idea out of hand. My own observation > related to the > Barret which has substantially different capabilites > and purposes. > > As for your opinion on the State Dept's > opinons..well...I wouldn't be > surprised if they placed an equal value on yours :) > > Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO > idea..... > > Re: Tamada, > Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable > BUT best lose > the 'Funk & Wagnall' and round up a real live > Georgian :) the > significance of such a selection under those > circumstances, can be > and turned out to be remarkable. 'toastmaster' didn't > cover it :) > > C- eh? LOL Never got a "C" in anything in my life :) > you're killin me > here lol. > > Ok, enough of that :) > > Now, for everyone else, there are two aspects of > advice, 1. Does the > advice make any sense standing on its own? and 2. What > is the > experience level and intel of the guy/gal rendering > it. Sometimes > the common joe comes up with a helluva idea, and > sometimes the Nobel > guys couldn't get it farther wrong :) BUT, by > assessing advice based > on those two criteria, you Can reach decisions which > can keep you > from having to personally learn some bad things, in > hard ways, which > is why I brought this whole thing up in the first > place. > > Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use > of weapons > always seem to go squirrely, just remember not > everyone is Hulk Hogan > and that's the point. As someone once said, (probably > a cowboy hehe) > god created all men, but it was Sam Colt who made em > equal. Being > able to defend yourself, your family and your boat in > this present > day world, is worth considering. And as Alex, Brent, > and others have > pointed out, it starts with planning, design, perhaps > some training, > preparation, and most of all, knowing in advance what > you'd do in a > given situation. The human mind has a tendency to > 'shut down' > or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with something > it's never seen > before. People freeze and for those few seconds are > terribly > vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' > during those times > that usually wins out. You don't have to be built > like a football > player, ex military, a 'martial arts' expert, or the > world's best > talk around negotiator.. All you have to do is plan, > prepare, > and 'think' when the time comes and more often than > not you'll be ok. > > seer > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2g. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "seeratlas" > seeratlas@... > seeratlas Wed Sep 6, > 2006 6:17 pm (PST) LOL Eric > hehehe. > It's true i've lived a very different life, and except > for a few > places where I encountered others like me, I used to > take a bit of > flack for it from those who weren't. But like I said, > I'm old now, > and somewhere along the way I quit apologizing for > living my kind of > life. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" > wrote: >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" >> wrote: >> > >> > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss > with me on this >> > subject, I (and probably many others here) would > appreciate it if >> you'd >> > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think this is >> > anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. >> >> Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one I > think you are way > off. >> >> When this first started I couldn't wait for it to > end but now, it's >> gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based upon > his >> years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely nothing > he >> hasn't done it should be quite something. >> >> eric S/V Nebaras >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2h. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "Sugar" > seeratlasangel@... > seeratlasangel Wed > Sep 6, 2006 6:38 pm (PST) > Yes Seer, that is the way I took what cirejay said but > I just thought > it was time to set the records straight. LOL And > regarding seeing > Gord's boat......it's on my to do list. Gord-looking > forward to > eventually meeting you and seeing your boat! > Sugar > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: >> >> Sugar..hehehe >> >> unless I"m mistaken cirejay was being smugly > sarcastic hehehehe. >> >> Oh, and your going to have to come up and see Gord's > boat. :) And >> Gord too for that matter heheheh:). >> >> s >> >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > cirejay.....You are correct about Seer. I haven't > talked to him in >> > weeks. But I have known him and his family for > many years. It is >> > true. Seer is exactly who he says he is. He has > done and seen more >> in >> > his lifetime than most men. Everything he has told > this site about >> > himself is true, infact he usally plays down his > real life. He may >> be >> > mad at me for putting my 2 cents in right now, but > I wanted you to >> > know that he's not just blowing hot air. >> > :) >> > Sugar >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" > wrote: >> > > >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin > A. Okopnik" >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to > discuss with me on >> this >> > > > subject, I (and probably many others here) > would appreciate it >> if >> > > you'd >> > > > take it to private email from here forward. I > don't think this >> is >> > > > anywhere near the topic of interest for this > list. >> > > >> > > Ben, I generally agree with you but on this one > I think you are >> way off. >> > > >> > > When this first started I couldn't wait for it > to end but now, >> it's >> > > gotten to be really fun. I can't wait for Seer's > reply. Based >> upon his >> > > years of experience and the fact that there is > ansolutely nothing >> he >> > > hasn't done it should be quite something. >> > > >> > > eric S/V Nebaras >> > > >> > >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2i. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "seeratlas" > seeratlas@... > seeratlas Wed Sep 6, > 2006 7:26 pm (PST) too late, > just now saw this. > and I disagree. At least as the topic started dealing > with boat > security and design considerations contributing to > that, I consider > that on topic. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" > wrote: >> >> Oh, and seer? If you have anything more to discuss > with me on this >> subject, I (and probably many others here) would > appreciate it if > you'd >> take it to private email from here forward. I don't > think this is >> anywhere near the topic of interest for this list. >> >> >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2j. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > ben@... > pectus_roboreus1 Wed > Sep 6, 2006 7:40 pm (PST) On > Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:41:42PM -0000, seeratlas > wrote: >> >> US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. > > > Yep. 204th OpFor/9th MI (Military Intelligence), Ft. > Lewis, certainly > appreciated my facility with Russian; in fact, I spent > a fair amount of > my enlistment wearing a Russian uniform (well, > approximately...) and > teaching Soviet TO&E to the troops - and "destroying" > their resources > (that's including 3/75 Ranger Bn.) in the field. > >> On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly > mentioned some sort >> of aircraft related light. > > I did. Does it being an aircraft landing light > magically change the > watts-per-candlepower ratio? That would be a new one > on me - and on > anyone else who understands basic > electricity/electronics. > >> Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the > one who suggested >> it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. > First of all, >> its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, > you can disguise >> it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be > at least as >> effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a > bit more mobile. > > Not if it's not where they are. Thus my point, which > you keep avoiding. > > The stern only covers a few degrees out of the 360 > that define the boat > perimeter; there's no reason to assume that this is > where the attacker > is going to come in. The companion, by contrast, _is_ > such a choke point > (unless you assume unlocked, unprotected hatches - in > which case, your > security was compromised to start with.) > > *Carrying* pepper spray may very well be an excellent > idea - but, again, > only as a part of a carefully-considered defensive > strategy. It's not a > magic wand; for that matter, neither is a gun. > >> Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using > them > > Not by attaching them to the sterns of their boats, > I'll guarantee you. > >> Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO > idea..... > > Actually, I have a lot more than an idea. You have > demonstrated your > ignorance of what things are like in the Dominican > Republic, then tried > to cover up when you were called on it - > unsuccessfully, I might add - > and then tried to take refuge in an appeal to > authority. > > Since you most likely have no idea of what I mean by > that, /ad > vercundiam/ is a rhetorical device often used to duck > the real issues. > This, and other similar devices (a.k.a. "logical > fallacies") are taught > in interrogation training - or, for civilians, in lots > of other places > (e.g., "How To Lie With Statistics", by Darnell Huff.) > I suggest you > study up; to anyone familiar with these devices, any > attempt to distort > the subject or redirect attention in those ways is > pretty laughable. > > So - yeah, ignorance. You may well know a number of > other things - > although by making false claims and trying to prop > them up, you throw > doubt on that as well - but in regard to the Dominican > Republic, you had > no idea of what you were talking about. Ditto the > electrical > requirements of high-output lights. > >> Re: Tamada, >> Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable > > [laugh] Hint: I'm a native speaker of Russian - and > the word migrated > into common Russian usage a long time ago (you, of > course, would have no > idea, but that's OK - it's definitely not the first > time in this > discussion.) My Georgian isn't all that great, but I > guarantee you it's > better than yours. I didn't need look up /Tamada/ in > any dictionary; > I've known the meaning of it since, oh, about 1967 or > so. My father was > often asked to be one when we were in Tbilisi - you've > heard of the > place, right? - Batumi, and a number of places in the > mountains (I don't > recall the names.) > > Perhaps _you_ should put down the Le Carre novel, eh? > >> Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use > of weapons >> always seem to go squirrely > > There is a good reason for the standard > list-discussion warnings about > guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to > discuss those things > rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage > if they're not > handled carefully. > > George Santayana was right, and will continue to be. > >> The human mind has a tendency to 'shut down' >> or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with > something it's never seen >> before. People freeze and for those few seconds are > terribly >> vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' > during those times >> that usually wins out. > > Here, we agree. > >> All you have to do is plan, prepare, >> and 'think' when the time comes and more often than > not you'll be ok. > > ...and here we don't. What a surprise, right? > > As one of my teachers, Pendekar Paul de Thouars, used > to say, "in a > fight, he who thinks, stinks." Thinking up until the > moment of the > crunch is critically important, but if you haven't > gamed the possible > scenarios in your head a thousand times - i.e. planned > the work and then > worked the plan - you're going to lose. It's what they > teach at > Quantico, at Sandhurst, at the CIA farm, etc.; it's > what all endurance > training for Rangers, the SEAL teams, the SAS, etc. is > intended to test. > There's a good reason that this method has persisted > since the days of > the Roman army: it works. > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2k. > Sailboat security and or > defence Posted by: "Aaron Williams" > akenai@... > akenai Wed Sep > 6, 2006 7:56 pm (PST) As far > as security The pee pee size won't matter much if you > can't pull the trigger. > And I don't want to find out if I can or would be > willing to, so what are the other options? > 1 High powered lights > 2 Pepper spray > 3 High powered lights plus pepper spray > 4 Hydrogen bomb ( I like this idea) > 5 Well built steel boat small windows strong > hatches. > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone > chases you down? > In daylight or if its dark. > Aaron > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2l. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > ben@... > pectus_roboreus1 Wed > Sep 6, 2006 8:04 pm (PST) On > Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:44:27PM -0000, seeratlas > wrote: >> too late, just now saw this. >> and I disagree. At least as the topic started > dealing with boat >> security and design considerations contributing to > that, I consider >> that on topic. > > The discussions about language, Mongol horsemen, > immigration, and the > opinions of chair-bound bureacrats, however, are not; > it's called > "thread drift". When it's gone that far off-topic, I > generally like to > give the rest of the list a break from it - but people > here have > expressed interest. So, carry on; I'm willing to stick > with it, at least > as long as I don't get bored - or until someone here > complains. > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2m. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "gschnell" > gschnell@... > withamazinggrace Wed Sep > 6, 2006 10:15 pm (PST) Hey > Sugar!! You are more than welcome to visit. Love to > meet you. > Gord > > Sugar wrote: >> >> Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) >> Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 2n. > Re: Trip to Whidbey :) > Posted by: "cirejay" > cirejay@... > cirejay Thu Sep 7, 2006 > 4:46 am (PST) --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > > wrote: >> > >> There is a good reason for the standard > list-discussion warnings about >> guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to > discuss those > things >> rationally, but there's also a high chance of > flamage if they're not >> handled carefully. > > Let me suggest that there is zero chance of not > encountering flamage. > On this and other groups it has always happened, > generally, with the > usual suspects. > > Please, ALL, it's time to end. The thread was toast a > long time ago > and I apologize for adding to the heat with my poor > attempt at humor. > > eric Nebaras S/V Nebaras > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 3. > Re: Plastics & Portlights > Posted by: "brentswain38" > brentswain38@... > brentswain38 Wed > Sep 6, 2006 4:58 pm (PST) > Friends left BC with hard surfaced lexan. By the time > they got to > Frisco it had all peeled off like old varnish. The > spent the rest of > the trip around the pacific looking thru foggy > windows. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" > wrote: >> >> Hi I'm new to this group. I mainly have built in > wood but weld > and >> was told about this group and the origami boat > concept. >> >> A number of years ago I worked at a very secure > facility that had >> huge lexan front windows. It was a shelter for > abused kids and > they >> were trying to make the place really secure while > not making it > feel >> like a prison. As I remember, they had a thin gold > colored > coating >> that was supposed to keep them from breaking down in > sunlight. >> Perhaps with the same coating lexan portlights would > last longer, >> though saltwater may defeat this coating. >> >> Paul Hardy >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. > Okopnik" >> wrote: >> > >> > On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 02:07:01PM -0000, > khooper_fboats wrote: >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > The best commercial hatch I've dealt with is > the Goiot > (sp?), >> strong, >> > > > lexan in aluminum frame, and lugs set up to > allow it to open >> in all >> > > > four directions. >> > > >> > > What are the advantages of Lexan really? I know > it is supposed >> to be >> > > much stronger than acrylic and significantly > softer (and more >> > > expensive) as well. But I was doing some > research into it and >> Lexan >> > > seems sort of a bait & switch proposition when > it comes to >> portlights. >> > >> > Acrylic, in my experience, crazes and "rots" in > the sun - >> especially >> > when you get into places where the sun beats down, > like the >> Caribbean. I >> > had a 3/8" acrylic skylight that came with the > boat which > collapsed >> > while I was standing on it (chewed up my leg > pretty well, too, > but >> I was >> > lucky enough to miss the really bad jagged spikes > - especially >> since I >> > went through it all the way to the hip.) I > replaced it with 3/8" >> Lexan, >> > and that's been standing up pretty well for, oh, > going on 7 > years >> now. >> > (It's just starting to show a little surface > crazing in one >> corner, so >> > perhaps that's the useful span of Lexan in the > Caribbean/Florida >> sun.) >> > >> > > What I was seeing (I can probably find the > numbers again if >> needed) is >> > > that while Lexan is incredibly strong in bearing > impact point >> loads, >> > > its tensile strength is not any higher than > acrylic, comparing >> dollars >> > > to dollars. That is, if you are going to be > firing bullets at >> your >> > > portlights, then Lexan is the material you want; > if you want >> them to >> > > bear the weight when taking green water across > the deck, then >> dollar >> > > for dollar you can get about twice the tensile > strength for > the >> same >> > > investment in acrylic. >> > > >> > > Also there is a PETG plastic called Vivak that > looks >> interesting, now >> > > available in a UV-resistant grade, I think this > is > substantially >> less >> > > expensive than acrylic, does anybody use this in > boatbuilding? >> > >> > Pretty decent boat-related article about the > various plastics: >> > >> > http://www.ez2cy.com/other_enclosures/mystery.html >> > >> > > I know the price of it doesn't matter that much > in smaller >> boats, but >> > > in the boats with wheelhouses and large windows, > especially if >> you are >> > > thinking about skylights and dealing with > material more than > an >> inch >> > > thick, it starts to add up fast! >> > >> > I'm definitely interested in seeing how this > shakes out, since >> I'll be >> > replacing that skylight (and have been thinking > about upgrading > my >> > too-thin lights...) soon. >> > >> > >> > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * >> http://LinuxGazette.NET * >> > >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (48) > > 4a. > Re: Fishermans Anchor > Posted by: "peter_d_wiley" > peter_d_wiley@... > peter_d_wiley Wed > Sep 6, 2006 5:02 pm (PST) > I'll ask Tom what he thinks about this. If he's happy > for me to post a copy, fine. Otherwise, > not. It's an intellectual property issue. I doubt > Brent, for example, would be happy if > someone posted a scan of the section of his book on > building a stove. I have an earlier > copy of Brent's book & haven't got around to buying > another one. > > PDW > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" > wrote: >> >> I too would be interested in such plans, please. >> >> Thank you, >> Courtney >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "peter_d_wiley" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:32 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fishermans Anchor >> >> >> > In the set of plans I got off of Tom Colvin he > included a design for an >> all welded fisherman >> > type anchor. Write to him & ask if he'll give/sell > you a copy. I haven't >> made one yet but I >> > plan on it. Cheap & strong but easily replaceable > so if it has to go - >> shrug. Long as it >> > works when you need it. >> > >> > PDW >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: >> > > >> > > The best variant I've seen on these was the Nat > Herreshoff (sp?) one >> > > which i think you might be able to research on > the net. Seems to me I >> > > saw some suggestions as to dimensions, materials > etc. on some of his >> > > plans which were available on the net at one > time. If not check for >> > > someone who has one of his design books. >> > > >> > > Second, watch out using this thing in any kind > of 'yachty or commercial >> > > harbor as it will snag old cabling, anchors, > refrigerators or wrecks >> > > like crazy and to free one often means going > over the side, which in >> > > most commercial harbors is something you do NOT > want to do, for bio >> > > related reasons primarily. >> > > >> > > Its worth building one up tho, I've seen a lot > of people with great >> > > great big breakdown types that they use as > 'hurricane hooks' as when >> > > they get hold of something, they only grudgingly > let go :) >> > > >> > > seer >> > > >> > > >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "edward_stoneuk" >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > I have just started getting materials to build > a fishermans anchor, >> > > > (the traditional type of anchor that appears > on cap badges etc. I >> > > was >> > > > thinking of usng de-tempered truck springs for > some of it. The idea >> > > > is to use it on weedy or rocky bottoms where > other types would >> > > skitter >> > > > along. I live some way from the sea so cannot > measure up an existing >> > > > anchor. Does any one have any info on the > angles and ratios used? >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Ted >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (8) > > 4b. > Was: Fishermans Anchor Now: Has > Brent made an update to his book yet > Posted by: "Paul J. Thompson" > pault@... > lachica31 > Wed Sep 6, 2006 6:06 pm (PST) > Which reminds me, has Brent issued a new copy of his > book? I bought mine > about 3 - 4 years ago and if he has revised it, I > would certainly want a > copy of the latest edition. > > By the way Brent, I know that you are always improving > an also > developing new ideas and ways of doing things. What > about doing an > addendum to your book every now and again? I and I am > sure many others > on this list would be more than willing to pay for it. > > Regards, > > Paul > > peter_d_wiley wrote: >> >> >> I have an earlier >> copy of Brent's book & haven't got around to buying > another one. >> > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (8) > > 5a. > How about the good old > Northhill Anchor? Posted by: > "dove2steel" dove2steel@... > dove2steel > Wed Sep 6, 2006 8:05 pm (PST) > Does anyone care for the northill > anchor? It just never seems to > fail. Really big in the fishing industry. > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (2) > > 5b. > Re: How about the good old > Northhill Anchor? Posted by: > "cirejay" cirejay@... > cirejay > Thu Sep 7, 2006 4:30 am (PST) > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "dove2steel" > wrote: >> >> Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It > just never seems > to >> fail. Really big in the fishing industry. >> > The Northill works ok but I've found that a large > candlepower > flashlight or a pepper spray slick off of the stern > (great for breaking > seas also) works much better:-) > > Actually, I'm not familiar with them. I'll google and > see what they > are like. > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > Back to top > Reply to sender > | Reply to group > | Reply via web post > Messages in this topic > (2) > > > > New Message Search > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to > try out the improved message search. > > > > > > > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups > > > Recent Activity > > 13 > New Members > > > Visit Your Group > SPONSORED LINKS > > Yacht financing > Motor yacht > Yacht delivery > Vancouver island lodging > Sailing

(Message over 64 KB, truncated) | 11637|11517|2006-09-08 21:26:27|cirejay|Re: designed-in boat security|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police > person: > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > Terry It sure as hell beats putting the first round into the floor:-) eric S/V Nebaras| 11638|11517|2006-09-08 23:02:03|Aaron Williams|Re: designed-in boat security|WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? I CAN'T HEAR A DAMN THING ANY MORE SORRY FOR YELLING. cirejay wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police > person: > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > Terry It sure as hell beats putting the first round into the floor:-) eric S/V Nebaras --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11639|11635|2006-09-09 00:23:50|Candy Larreau|Re: Digest Number 1651|Hi, Joe, We are building an BS origamiboat in the Bothell, Wa area, which is north of Seattle. Would be glad to show you if you want to come this far north. We are just about finished with the Steel work, haven't started the finish work on the interior yet. Randy & Candy Larreau --- joe framer wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am going to be traveling North from San Diego to > Portland for the next 2 weeks and would relly like > to > look at some boats either finished or in progress. I > tried to contact Tazman off list but haven't gotten > a > replied. We would be willing to go even further > north > if it meant seeing an origami boat in person. > Thanks, Karl from Carolina > > --- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 11640|11517|2006-09-09 15:22:35|brentswain38|Re: designed-in boat security|An ex Seattle cop, who was teching people how to differentiate between real intruders and family members arriving unannounced said that 60% of all "Intruders "shot by paranoid residents turned out to be family members or friends arriving unannounced . A boatload of Indonesians approached a USanian boat in Indonesian waters . All Indonesians wore ski masks. The Usanians shot over their heads and they left. A friend on a Canadian boat saw them approcaching and responded with a friendly wave. They replied "Welcome to Indonesia, great country, great people." Then left. They wear ski masks to stop the tropical sun from burning their faces off. Time to ease off on the paranoia. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? I CAN'T HEAR A DAMN THING ANY MORE SORRY FOR YELLING. > > cirejay wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a > police > > person: > > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > > Terry > > It sure as hell beats putting the first round into the floor:-) > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11641|11609|2006-09-09 15:29:33|brentswain38|Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|Fishermen , when they are not tied to the dock , their moorage being heavily subsidised by yachties, only anchor overnight, sometimes with a watch on. For this reson the fact that northills tend to foul every time the tide changes ,is less of a factor than it would be for cruisers.I wouldn't want to leave a boat anchored off a northill without someone aboard at all times. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dove2steel" > wrote: > > > > Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems > to > > fail. Really big in the fishing industry. > > > The Northill works ok but I've found that a large candlepower > flashlight or a pepper spray slick off of the stern (great for breaking > seas also) works much better:-) > > Actually, I'm not familiar with them. I'll google and see what they > are like. > > eric S/V Nebaras > | 11642|11517|2006-09-09 15:35:24|brentswain38|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|A 303 british soft point will shoot thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate. Towing a piece of rigging wire over the stern while pointing the stern at any approaching vessel while weaving slightly from side to side can put it's prop out of commision for quite a while.Best tie it on with a light break away line. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 01:38:04PM -0000, Ray wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > > > > In daylight or if its dark. > > > > Aaron > > > > > > > > > > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the > > > pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel > > > boats thick enough to stop a bullet? > > > > Depends on the round, but the answer is mostly "no". I played around > > with some .308AP (armor-piercing) ammo a number of years back, and > > established that on 1/8" steel, it didn't really matter whether you used > > AP or plain hardball - it all penetrated just fine. I was only testing > > it at short distances, though (60 feet, IIRC); there's obviously an > > envelope within which ballistic energy (i.e., bullet weight, shape, type > > and amount of propellant, distance, etc.) and bullet material will be > > enough to penetrate a given thickness of steel. > > I've put a 7x57 Mauser FMJ round through 6mm of plate at 200m. In practical terms, a > 5mm steel hull will stop most pistol rounds, anything of cast lead and pretty much > nothing else. Must try a 7.62x39 one day as it's the cartridge of choice these days but I > expect it'd blow through. > > PDW > | 11643|11626|2006-09-09 15:35:51|brentswain38|Re: Back to boat construction|It could be the ground it's sitting on. It is the same draft as the keels , I believe roughly 51 inches along the trailing edge.The skeg is shallower for the twin keeler than the single keeler so it will sit level. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent or Alex > Is there any reason that the bottom of the skeg on Alex's boat looks > longer not what the plans for the BS36 show. > Aaron > | 11644|11628|2006-09-09 15:38:39|brentswain38|Re: Engine controls|With most boats having the engine just below the main hatch, I find it easy to make solid ss tubing controls linked directly to the engine and tranny, the most fail safe and reliable method possible. I put my control just inside the hatch ,easly accessible from both the cockpit and from below. Those single lever controls sure make docking easy. I wouldn't be without one.Beats having to work two controls , one for speed and one for shifting Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gordo" wrote: > > I just encountered the dilema of engine controls placement with tiller > steering. > I've visited all the postings on the subject. No "ideal" solutions. > There just doesn't seem to be a "great" location for the cockpit > controls. > Any suggestions!! > Gord > | 11645|11635|2006-09-09 16:42:43|Carl Anderson|Randy & Candy|We'd love to see your boat! We're going thru' your neck of the woods mid-October from SLC, UT. I wish'd we'd known - we went thru' your town Mid - August after spending the summer looking at Brent Boats all up and down the Vancouver Is. coast. email us at hdd@... & we'll see if we can swing by next month! Thanks, Kate & Carl PS: are you building a 36'? Candy Larreau wrote: > Hi, Joe, > > We are building an BS origamiboat in the Bothell, Wa > area, which is north of Seattle. Would be glad to > show you if you want to come this far north. We are > just about finished with the Steel work, haven't > started the finish work on the interior yet. > > Randy & Candy Larreau > > --- joe framer > wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > > > I am going to be traveling North from San Diego to > > Portland for the next 2 weeks and would relly like > > to > > look at some boats either finished or in progress. I > > tried to contact Tazman off list but haven't gotten > > a > > replied. We would be willing to go even further > > north > > if it meant seeing an origami boat in person. > > Thanks, Karl from Carolina > > > > --- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > wrote: > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > | 11646|11517|2006-09-09 18:24:27|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: designed-in boat security|Peter Blake, yachtsman, was the only one killed of his crew on an attack on his boat by pirates who mostly wanted money, not blood. He was the only one with a gun, and came charging up from below decks when he heard what was going on. The pirates left after killing him, but did not continue to fire on anyone else, which kind of indicates that killing everyone on board was never their plan to begin with. It reminds me of what happened to me last week when my girlfriend and I were robbed at gunpoint on St. Vincent. I've gone through the scenario many times in my head -- could I have been successful in a firefight had I been able to grab one of the guns? (one robber opened his up to show me that he had real bullets, just in case I thought he was joking, and I could have tried it then, but I was too shocked to attempt it). How do you shoot someone holding a gun to your girlfriend's head, without shooting her? Can you fire straight while you are shaking with fear? Or, what wou ld have happened had the landlord come in, blasting away (he has a gun)? I suspect it would have been complicated, to say the least. The ultimate goal is survival of all, not heroics and going down in a blaze of glory. From what I've read and heard, the average citizen, untrained in firearm use and not in a state of readiness, could cause himself or his mates more damage than had he not been armed. That is, if you are going to be armed, better be damned good at using it, instead of just thinking that buying a gun is automatic protection. Buying a car doesn't make you a driver by default, you have to learn the driving. I think one can be spared the need for heroics by first of all travelling in convoys of boats, because pirates fear numbers (they can't take all boats at once, and therefore someone can still call for help). In that case, it isn't required to have a bullet-proof hull! Pirates probably favour small arms, like my robbers' pistols (.357 magnuma and a .22), which would likely not have the velocity required to penetrate steel at any distance, in any case. What Brent said about the Indonesian fishermen in dark masks made me think about the caribbean again: LOTS of "officials" that might be in small backwaters are not in uniform -- even the police from the local small-town station near my place in St. Vincent were in plainclothes. They arrived in a beat-up little sedan with poor suspension, and it took me a moment to register that these guys were actual cops. Some port authorities in developing countries will not arrive at your boat in a marked launch, they might be in a beat up outboard skiff, and have no identifying features in their dress that indicate they are government employees. It would be the end of your cruise, the end of many things, if you accidentally shot someone who was merely conducting business. I guess we are getting pretty far away from the boat construction topics, and it's mostly my fault. One can easily get wrapped up in the paranoia, perhaps even generating conflict where there is none to begin with. Sometimes we focus on our nightmares so much they actually become true. I'll rest on this subject for now, it's all still too close to home for me, even though I'm out of that region now. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 Date: Saturday, September 9, 2006 12:20 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security > > An ex Seattle cop, who was teching people how to differentiate > between real intruders and family members arriving unannounced > said > that 60% of all "Intruders "shot by paranoid residents turned out > to > be family members or friends arriving unannounced . > A boatload of Indonesians approached a USanian boat in Indonesian > waters . All Indonesians wore ski masks. The Usanians shot over > their heads and they left. A friend on a Canadian boat saw them > approcaching and responded with a friendly wave. They > replied "Welcome to Indonesia, great country, great people." Then > left. They wear ski masks to stop the tropical sun from burning > their faces off. > Time to ease off on the paranoia. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? I CAN'T HEAR A DAMN THING ANY MORE SORRY > FOR YELLING. > > > > cirejay wrote: --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from > a > > police > > > person: > > > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is > threatened by > > > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > > > Terry > > > > It sure as hell beats putting the first round into the floor:-) > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 11647|11626|2006-09-09 21:37:00|Aaron Williams|Re: Back to boat construction|I would say the set of plans I have don't have the dimension for skeg with twin keels, but measuring by scale on the side view of the twin I get 59" along the trailing edge and 9" across the bottom.Not for certain I have the correct measurment. Any other way to get the correct size so I could pre-fab the skeg and the rudder. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: It could be the ground it's sitting on. It is the same draft as the keels , I believe roughly 51 inches along the trailing edge.The skeg is shallower for the twin keeler than the single keeler so it will sit level. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > Brent or Alex > Is there any reason that the bottom of the skeg on Alex's boat looks > longer not what the plans for the BS36 show. > Aaron > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11648|11517|2006-09-10 01:05:16|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|You ever kill anyone Ben? or make a felony arrest? or get shot ? or shot at? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:41:42PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > US military born in Moscow? now that IS interesting. > > Yep. 204th OpFor/9th MI (Military Intelligence), Ft. Lewis, certainly > appreciated my facility with Russian; in fact, I spent a fair amount of > my enlistment wearing a Russian uniform (well, approximately...) and > teaching Soviet TO&E to the troops - and "destroying" their resources > (that's including 3/75 Ranger Bn.) in the field. > > > On the candlepower, sorry thought you expressly mentioned some sort > > of aircraft related light. > > I did. Does it being an aircraft landing light magically change the > watts-per-candlepower ratio? That would be a new one on me - and on > anyone else who understands basic electricity/electronics. > > > Regarding the pepper spray idea, while I wasn't the one who suggested > > it, I dunno bout dismissing the idea so cavalierly. First of all, > > its easy to come by, you don't have to register it, you can disguise > > it a number of ways, and, I would think it would be at least as > > effective as you 'flashing' them :) and perhaps a bit more mobile. > > Not if it's not where they are. Thus my point, which you keep avoiding. > > The stern only covers a few degrees out of the 360 that define the boat > perimeter; there's no reason to assume that this is where the attacker > is going to come in. The companion, by contrast, _is_ such a choke point > (unless you assume unlocked, unprotected hatches - in which case, your > security was compromised to start with.) > > *Carrying* pepper spray may very well be an excellent idea - but, again, > only as a part of a carefully-considered defensive strategy. It's not a > magic wand; for that matter, neither is a gun. > > > Seems to be an awful lot of police departments using them > > Not by attaching them to the sterns of their boats, I'll guarantee you. > > > Ignorance eh? rflmao u crack me up. u have NO idea..... > > Actually, I have a lot more than an idea. You have demonstrated your > ignorance of what things are like in the Dominican Republic, then tried > to cover up when you were called on it - unsuccessfully, I might add - > and then tried to take refuge in an appeal to authority. > > Since you most likely have no idea of what I mean by that, /ad > vercundiam/ is a rhetorical device often used to duck the real issues. > This, and other similar devices (a.k.a. "logical fallacies") are taught > in interrogation training - or, for civilians, in lots of other places > (e.g., "How To Lie With Statistics", by Darnell Huff.) I suggest you > study up; to anyone familiar with these devices, any attempt to distort > the subject or redirect attention in those ways is pretty laughable. > > So - yeah, ignorance. You may well know a number of other things - > although by making false claims and trying to prop them up, you throw > doubt on that as well - but in regard to the Dominican Republic, you had > no idea of what you were talking about. Ditto the electrical > requirements of high-output lights. > > > Re: Tamada, > > Good for you, your dictionary skills are impeccable > > [laugh] Hint: I'm a native speaker of Russian - and the word migrated > into common Russian usage a long time ago (you, of course, would have no > idea, but that's OK - it's definitely not the first time in this > discussion.) My Georgian isn't all that great, but I guarantee you it's > better than yours. I didn't need look up /Tamada/ in any dictionary; > I've known the meaning of it since, oh, about 1967 or so. My father was > often asked to be one when we were in Tbilisi - you've heard of the > place, right? - Batumi, and a number of places in the mountains (I don't > recall the names.) > > Perhaps _you_ should put down the Le Carre novel, eh? > > > Unfortunately, these discussions on the possible use of weapons > > always seem to go squirrely > > There is a good reason for the standard list-discussion warnings about > guns, politics, sex, and religion. It's possible to discuss those things > rationally, but there's also a high chance of flamage if they're not > handled carefully. > > George Santayana was right, and will continue to be. > > > The human mind has a tendency to 'shut down' > > or 'blink' as it were, when confronted with something it's never seen > > before. People freeze and for those few seconds are terribly > > vulnerable. It's the man who continues to 'think' during those times > > that usually wins out. > > Here, we agree. > > > All you have to do is plan, prepare, > > and 'think' when the time comes and more often than not you'll be ok. > > ...and here we don't. What a surprise, right? > > As one of my teachers, Pendekar Paul de Thouars, used to say, "in a > fight, he who thinks, stinks." Thinking up until the moment of the > crunch is critically important, but if you haven't gamed the possible > scenarios in your head a thousand times - i.e. planned the work and then > worked the plan - you're going to lose. It's what they teach at > Quantico, at Sandhurst, at the CIA farm, etc.; it's what all endurance > training for Rangers, the SEAL teams, the SAS, etc. is intended to test. > There's a good reason that this method has persisted since the days of > the Roman army: it works. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11649|11517|2006-09-10 01:23:52|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|slocum put nails on his decks at night in the tropics i believe :) one of the things the IMB is recommending is exploring electric fencing. Several freighter crews have repelled boards by using their firehoses. I think for the most part, the 'pack' concept probably works best, i.e. go to highly frequented areas, in groups and stay close and in communication. Most attacks appear to be in more remote areas with single targets, tho there are some exceptions. If, however, you are going to explore places where you are likely to be alone, well, other options are worthy of consideration. Even a taser might be considered tho that will only let you deal with one target at a time. Regarding firearms, even the most highly trained soldiers can freeze up at their first deadly encounter. its hard to get around human nature, tho in my experience farm/rural boys with some experience at deer/varmint (i.e. coyote/bobcat etc.) hunting tend to do better in their first combat situation. There's some film somewhere of a licensed concealed carrier shopowner who gets shot during a robbery because he went automatic and forgot about the safety. As for your last scenario that's the one that concerns me the most. Anyone that runs you down in a speed boat means business. Normal small arms fire that you're likely to carry won't deal well with someone with the normal drug runner gear, the Barret, however, brings a whole new set of options to the table, to someone who knows how and when to use it. This is, however, a viable option for a much smaller segment of the sailing frat/and/or sorority. I suppose you could jury rig some floating explosives to toss out in your wake, but that assumes they are going to be coming from dead astern.... seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > As far as security The pee pee size won't matter much if you can't pull the trigger. > And I don't want to find out if I can or would be willing to, so what are the other options? > 1 High powered lights > 2 Pepper spray > 3 High powered lights plus pepper spray > 4 Hydrogen bomb ( I like this idea) > 5 Well built steel boat small windows strong hatches. > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > In daylight or if its dark. > Aaron > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11650|11517|2006-09-10 01:34:59|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 05:05:12AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > You ever kill anyone Ben? > or make a felony arrest? > or get shot ? or shot at? Answered off-list. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11651|11517|2006-09-10 01:40:10|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Well, you'd have to run the range of the possible weapons they might have. 38's and things smaller, at least for general commercially available ammo is going to be substantially slowed, if not deflected. You'd also want to account for the action of your foam and the nature of your interior. 9mm on up, especially hp fully jacketed mil type surplus or "ball" ammo will likely just come on thru. You 'could' lay a woven kevlar panel similar to body armor, inside the transom under your interior. This would substantially increase the chance of capturing the round before it goes careening around your interior, and wouldn't be prohibitedly expensive, or difficult to procure. One good thing about steel, on your boat, the hull surfaces are mostly curved so you have a good chance at deflection. Angle hits are substantially less likely to penetrate than 90 degree shots . Now for the rest, there are lots of military things that would be useful and a number of other things you can cook up in the sink that make big 'bangs' or create clouds which you really don't want to spend time inside of. Current web searches on these types of subjects, however, may very well result in a visit :). I know of at least one case where a fellow employed a big squirtgun full of ammonia to very good effect- you know the water blaster type. Lots of very dangerous things can be freely purchased at the local hardware/supermarket, its the delivery system that you work on. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > > In daylight or if its dark. > > Aaron > > > > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the > pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel > boats thick enough to stop a bullet? If so, up to what size? Could it > ram an offending vessel (assuming that the OTHER vessel wasn't metal - > and that most 'pirate' boats are nowadays stolen fiberglass > pleasurecraft)? > > As one who is dreaming of/planning for an early retirement, on a boat, > sailing the world's seas, and NOT listening to other-than-weather > newscasts, I'd like to design as much passive security into the vessel > and my operation of it as I can, but, to still have SOME means of > active resistance to unwanted intrusion at my disposal. > > > > Ray > | 11652|11517|2006-09-10 01:45:29|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|> > I've put a 7x57 Mauser FMJ round through 6mm of plate at 200m. In practical terms, a > 5mm steel hull will stop most pistol rounds, anything of cast lead and pretty much > nothing else. Must try a 7.62x39 one day as it's the cartridge of choice these days but I > expect it'd blow through. > > PDW > it will, at least in the spec for the swain boats, absent some kind of kevlar/carbon/boron type shielding. The latest body armor being tested is an interesting variation on the old scale mail model.essentially overlapping individual trauma plates in a webbing. seer| 11653|11517|2006-09-10 01:47:10|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > A 303 british soft point will shoot thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate. > Towing a piece of rigging wire over the stern while pointing the > stern at any approaching vessel while weaving slightly from side to > side can put it's prop out of commision for quite a while.Best tie > it on with a light break away line. > Brent > > I like that idea a lot. seer| 11654|11517|2006-09-10 02:15:29|seeratlas|Re: Trip to Whidbey :)|Sheesh, First of all the cowboy thing was an illustration of the same principle set forth in the essay. Like it or not, people are animals, and in similar situations react exactly like a huge number of other animals. Predators generally seek out not the strongest, but the weakest, most defenseless etc. They do this based on a number of criteria, one of which is posture, attitude etc. My point was that simply the perception that I was a "Cowboy" just like the gun toting do gooding ones in all the old movies that an AMAZING number of people in the world have seen, was enough to classify me as a 'non target'. Mongolians are historically and as a matter of national pride, widely regarded as remarkable horsemen and respect that skill above most others. To perceive me as an Texas cowboy, again because of the movies, gave me instant status and respect, which is why I was sent there in the first place. Let me make it simpler, here, Sugar, you'll appreciate this. Let's take Young Italian males for instance (those in Italy :) If they realize that cute young thing walking down the street is an American, well, they've seen the movies, you see to them, ALL young americans are sexually promiscous and therefore are likely to look favorably on a scheme of whistles, groping etc. On the other hand, they know the german girls will turn around and knock the shit out of em, so they leave em alone. So giving the perception of being a hard target is helpful in suggesting they choose someone else to take down, assuming that's the way you think the problem should be dealt with, i.e. make it someone elses 'bad night'...seemingly popular in our current culture, but, in the animal kingdom, not all species think that's the way to deal with the problem. A jackass, for instance will not only protect its young but will do its damndest to run down and stomp to death a coyote. For that reason many sheep people are putting them into the pastures with the sheep, AND the occasional 'sheep dog' :) heheh. It's interesting to note that a wild mustang stallion will do the same thing, but our domesticated breeds will not. As far as the State Dept. goes, there are lots of different jobs there, including a branch of people charged with what could be loosely described as 'personal security' matters. In my experience, some of the best operators in the business and one hell of a long way from "chair bound diplomats". I can think of several instances in which their performance far eclipsed some of the more notable military units normally charged with similar matters and concerns. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 05:44:27PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > too late, just now saw this. > > and I disagree. At least as the topic started dealing with boat > > security and design considerations contributing to that, I consider > > that on topic. > > The discussions about language, Mongol horsemen, immigration, and the > opinions of chair-bound bureacrats, however, are not; it's called > "thread drift". When it's gone that far off-topic, I generally like to > give the rest of the list a break from it - but people here have > expressed interest. So, carry on; I'm willing to stick with it, at least > as long as I don't get bored - or until someone here complains. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11655|11626|2006-09-10 02:48:22|edward_stoneuk|Re: Back to boat construction|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I would say the set of plans I have don't have the dimension for skeg with twin keels, but measuring by scale on the side view of the twin I get 59" along the trailing edge and 9" across the bottom.Not for certain I have the correct measurment. Any other way to get the correct size so I could pre-fab the skeg and the rudder. > Aaron Aaron, I prefabed the skeg and left the bottom open, which you need to do anyway to let the slag etc out when you cut the hole for the propeller and shaft. Then when it was all welded up I cut the bottom off to match the twin keels and welded the bottom on. I made the rudder and then cut the top to my preferred length. Regards, Ted| 11656|11517|2006-09-10 02:56:34|David A. Frantz|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Hi Ray; While I don't have any tables available that would indicate the resistnace to penetration of various gages of sheet metal, I can say that common thicknesses of sheet metal that I've heard about being used in the varous forums can be penetrated by just about anything. That would be 10 and 12 gage metal. Of course there are all sorts of pyhsical variables involved, along with different grades of steel, so there may be cases where such metal is effective. In any event I wouldn't rely on such metal with standing any sort of firearm or a bow and arrow for that matter. As to raming other boats I don't know of any pleasure craft designs that could with stand that. In the case of 10 gage or 1/8" plating I suspect that you would run a huge risk of splitting the plating and sinking you boat pretty quick. Not to mention the other damage you might inflict. If you are going to end up that close to the opposing vessel you had best have more active defense plans available, the problem being that contact or near contact to the other vessel opens you up to even more risks from said pirates. Thanks Dave Ray wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Aaron Williams > wrote: > > > > What do you do when you are sailing and someone chases you down? > > In daylight or if its dark. > > Aaron > > > > Here's an interesting question: Assume you can't outrun or evade the > pursuer - is the steel that is used to build most 'personal' steel > boats thick enough to stop a bullet? If so, up to what size? Could it > ram an offending vessel (assuming that the OTHER vessel wasn't metal - > and that most 'pirate' boats are nowadays stolen fiberglass > pleasurecraft)? > > As one who is dreaming of/planning for an early retirement, on a boat, > sailing the world's seas, and NOT listening to other-than-weather > newscasts, I'd like to design as much passive security into the vessel > and my operation of it as I can, but, to still have SOME means of > active resistance to unwanted intrusion at my disposal. > > Ray > > | 11657|11517|2006-09-10 03:09:58|seeratlas|Re: designed-in boat security|Sir Peter's death was a tragedy, tho not without some benefit. Seems the Brazilian officials had essentially turned a blind eye to several groups operating in that same area of the amazon (the crime situation in many places in Brazil is amazing). As a result of Sir Peter's death and the resulting hoopla and investigation, a number of local officials were sacked, several incarcerated, and I believe tho most of the perpetrators were tried, convicted and incarcerated, several were executed. Peter was a very proud and driven man. An 'alpha' if you will. It was not in his nature to NOT try and protect his guests. If I recall the transcripts of the interviews with those on board indicated that none of them knew at the time whether the pirates meant them serious bodily harm or not, tho the pirates subsequently claimed they killed Sir Peter in self defense. A tough judgment call and one subject to being second guessed regardless of which course of action he chose. Alex I think everything you write about your experience is well considered. The skill set you envision as being necessary strikes very close to the mark in my estimation. Unfortunately, the most sure path to attaining those skills requires experience, but if you study people, and their body language, you appreciate just how difficult it is to be an accomplished actor. Most people are not, and therefore their true intentions can more often than not be determined by the discerning eye. You see a lot of this with Treasury/Customs people who can almost with a glance pick a malfeaser out of a crowd. It is always difficult to determine where the line between unjustified paranoia, and justifiable suspicion should lie. But, just because a thing may be difficult is no reason to refrain from dealing with it. I can with certainty, however, say this. In the absence of a worldwide conversion to whatever it is that the Quaker's practice, Whatever the current state of affairs, it is only going to get worse, not better. Oh, and Brent, The Indonesians you mention may have been great people. Just remember that it was also the Indonesians that most recently engaged in pretty much an attempt at genocide in East Timor, and pretty much a tie between the Indonesians and Malaysians for 'top pirate' award in and around the Malaccan Straits. OH, and do they have a mountain cold enough to ski on? :) seer Oh, one last observation. Speaking solely for myself, there are damned few things worth dying for....but there ARE some...and protection of life of family and others is nearly at the top of that list. Fortunately for we Americans, (and for the French, Dutch, Belgians, Chinese, Philipinos, and literally a world of others, we have been blessed in our history of having no shortage of those with that view when circumstances required. Again Alex, your conclusions and advice are rational and well founded, avoid the circumstances in the first place, if you can. I simply add, that it could be useful to consider in advance what you might do , when you can't. s --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > Peter Blake, yachtsman, was the only one killed of his crew on an attack on his boat by pirates who mostly wanted money, not blood. He was the only one with a gun, and came charging up from below decks when he heard what was going on. The pirates left after killing him, but did not continue to fire on anyone else, which kind of indicates that killing everyone on board was never their plan to begin with. It reminds me of what happened to me last week when my girlfriend and I were robbed at gunpoint on St. Vincent. I've gone through the scenario many times in my head -- could I have been successful in a firefight had I been able to grab one of the guns? (one robber opened his up to show me that he had real bullets, just in case I thought he was joking, and I could have tried it then, but I was too shocked to attempt it). How do you shoot someone holding a gun to your girlfriend's head, without shooting her? Can you fire straight while you are shaking with fear? Or, what wou > ld have happened had the landlord come in, blasting away (he has a gun)? I suspect it would have been complicated, to say the least. The ultimate goal is survival of all, not heroics and going down in a blaze of glory. > > From what I've read and heard, the average citizen, untrained in firearm use and not in a state of readiness, could cause himself or his mates more damage than had he not been armed. That is, if you are going to be armed, better be damned good at using it, instead of just thinking that buying a gun is automatic protection. Buying a car doesn't make you a driver by default, you have to learn the driving. > > I think one can be spared the need for heroics by first of all travelling in convoys of boats, because pirates fear numbers (they can't take all boats at once, and therefore someone can still call for help). In that case, it isn't required to have a bullet-proof hull! Pirates probably favour small arms, like my robbers' pistols (.357 magnuma and a .22), which would likely not have the velocity required to penetrate steel at any distance, in any case. > > > What Brent said about the Indonesian fishermen in dark masks made me think about the caribbean again: LOTS of "officials" that might be in small backwaters are not in uniform -- even the police from the local small-town station near my place in St. Vincent were in plainclothes. They arrived in a beat-up little sedan with poor suspension, and it took me a moment to register that these guys were actual cops. Some port authorities in developing countries will not arrive at your boat in a marked launch, they might be in a beat up outboard skiff, and have no identifying features in their dress that indicate they are government employees. It would be the end of your cruise, the end of many things, if you accidentally shot someone who was merely conducting business. > > I guess we are getting pretty far away from the boat construction topics, and it's mostly my fault. One can easily get wrapped up in the paranoia, perhaps even generating conflict where there is none to begin with. Sometimes we focus on our nightmares so much they actually become true. I'll rest on this subject for now, it's all still too close to home for me, even though I'm out of that region now. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > Date: Saturday, September 9, 2006 12:20 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security > > > > > An ex Seattle cop, who was teching people how to differentiate > > between real intruders and family members arriving unannounced > > said > > that 60% of all "Intruders "shot by paranoid residents turned out > > to > > be family members or friends arriving unannounced . > > A boatload of Indonesians approached a USanian boat in Indonesian > > waters . All Indonesians wore ski masks. The Usanians shot over > > their heads and they left. A friend on a Canadian boat saw them > > approcaching and responded with a friendly wave. They > > replied "Welcome to Indonesia, great country, great people." Then > > left. They wear ski masks to stop the tropical sun from burning > > their faces off. > > Time to ease off on the paranoia. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams > > wrote: > > > > > > WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? I CAN'T HEAR A DAMN THING ANY MORE SORRY > > FOR YELLING. > > > > > > cirejay wrote: --- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > > > > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from > > a > > > police > > > > person: > > > > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is > > threatened by > > > > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > > > > Terry > > > > > > It sure as hell beats putting the first round into the floor:-) > > > > > > eric S/V Nebaras > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11658|11517|2006-09-10 04:23:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" wrote: > > Great questions guys. I too would like an input from people. I would > prefer to be aware of things that can happen and I would prefer to > have some kind of plan of action and some good ideas of how to get out > of a bad situation. I had a break-in last week. Yes someone busted > the front door lock, broke in, ransacked everything and took what they > wanted. Lucky for me I wasn't in the building. But things happen. > Until about 4 years ago I really wasn't aware of all the pirating done > on the ocean. Now it is a concern of mine. > Sugar Hi Sugar, One way of approaching the subject is to carry out a hazard and risk analysis. Then consider what the probability is of it occurring, the severity of the outcome if it does occur and the cost and effectiveness of avoiding action. In our case the hazard or attack may be: 1. Well offshore. 1.1. By a cargo boat whose crew are looking for a bit of fun. 1.2. By a fast launch marauding from a shore base. 2. Inshore: 2.1. By either of the above 2.2. By a smaller vessel perhaps outboard or paddle powered. 3. At anchor: 3.1. By most of the above. 3.2. By one or more swimmers. 4. Tied to a jetty or wharf. 4.1. By some of the above 4.2. By one or more pedestrians The probability of an attack occurring will vary according to the location and perhaps the displayed relative wealth of the vessel and crew. The outcome of the attack may include loss of property, injury and death. In many cases one can avoid the latter by giving the former and to many this is a risk reducing and cost effective way of dealing with the hazard. At the start of the attack you may be asleep or awake inside or on deck. You may not be on the boat. Particularly with inshore or onshore attacks I would think it more likely that the attack will occur when the prize is more vulnerable, the crew asleep, drunk, or absent. All of us carry out this kind of analysis in our daily lives, we secure our houses and automobiles and are aware that our safety changes as we move into different environments. Many of us are only too aware that our security measures do not always work as you and Alex have reported here. My wife and my security failures include our house burgled, jewellery stolen from a hotel, our car stolen, and my wedding ring stolen off my hand by a pickpocket in La Paz, Bolivia. We are little bit sadder, one hopes wiser and so far alive, which is what counts. We will make our boat as secure, perhaps slightly more so than our house as I feel that attempted petty theft from ones boat is more probable. We have bought a safe to weld in. I perceive our main threats on board to be the weather and our own incompetence. Further out at sea; I have read of a case where a threatened skipper sent out a MAYDAY message, which was answered by a British warship. The pursuing vessel must have heard the messages and left. In another reported case a yacht sailing well off the West African coast was followed by a small cargo boat that changed course when they did. As dusk fell it came closer. The yacht crew put out all their lights lowered their sails and turned towards the pursuing vessel and then away at 180° to try and confuse them. They could not raise any assistance on their VHF but had a satelite phone and called Falmouth coastguard, which is the Atlantic rescue coordinating station for the UK. Falmouth called Cape Verde coastguard that transmitted an all stations message asking vessels to come to the aid of the yacht. The pursuing vessel, which must have heard the message then left. Lots of ideas. Regards, Ted| 11659|11517|2006-09-10 08:37:46|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 08:22:54AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > One way of approaching the subject is to carry out a hazard and risk > analysis. Then consider what the probability is of it occurring, the > severity of the outcome if it does occur and the cost and > effectiveness of avoiding action. [snip] Excellent description and great analysis, Ted; the above is what I meant by "doing your homework", and this is what I consider to be the rational approach to security. One of the factors that I also toss into the above calculation is the cost of the security measures themselves - when you have a finite budget and a given number of vulnerabilities to cover, that implies that overspending on one reduces the resources available for the others. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11660|11517|2006-09-10 10:43:25|steve rankin|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|seeratlas wrote: > Well, you'd have to run the range of the possible weapons they might > have. 38's and things smaller, at least for general commercially > available ammo is going to be substantially slowed, if not deflected. > You'd also want to account for the action of your foam and the nature > of your interior. 9mm on up, especially hp fully jacketed mil type > surplus or "ball" ammo will likely just come on thru. You 'could' lay > a woven kevlar panel similar to body armor, inside the transom under > your interior. This would substantially increase the chance of > capturing the round before it goes careening around your interior, and > wouldn't be prohibitedly expensive, or difficult to procure. > One good thing about steel, on your boat, the hull surfaces are mostly > curved so you have a good chance at deflection. Angle hits are > substantially less likely to penetrate than 90 degree shots . > > Now for the rest, there are lots of military things that would be > useful and a number of other things you can cook up in the sink that > make big 'bangs' or create clouds which you really don't want to spend > time inside of. Current web searches on these types of subjects, > however, may very well result in a visit :). > > I know of at least one case where a fellow employed a big squirtgun > full of ammonia to very good effect- you know the water blaster type. > Lots of very dangerous things can be freely purchased at the local > hardware/supermarket, its the delivery system that you work on. > > seer > >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > > I'm sure glad you "sailors" spend your time figuring how to make yourselves inpregnable. Otherwise the cruising grounds would be overcrowded with paranoids! Imagine what those poor folk in wood and glass boats have to contend with. And then there is lightening to say nothing of weather out there. Actually the safest place methinks is to sit in your armchairs watching John Wayne movies cuddled up to a shotgun. Steve Rankin (non paranoid cruiser)| 11661|11609|2006-09-10 12:11:21|seeratlas|Re: How about the good old Northhill Anchor?|The Northhill requires a higher weight to size than many of the modern anchors to achieve equal 'holding power'. It can also be difficult to handle in a seaway, however if thought is given in the design stage, the handling problems can be dealt with and the weight disadvantage largely negated. It will hold well on a wide variety of sea bottoms, but 'can' foul the rode. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dove2steel" wrote: > > Does anyone care for the northill anchor? It just never seems to > fail. Really big in the fishing industry. > | 11662|11517|2006-09-10 12:23:49|seeratlas|SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|A substantial amount of the 'piracy' presently going on in the Caribbs involves only a few different scenarios. The first is subtle and not so subtle intimidation into convincing the yachty to bestow 'gifts'. Groups of men will approach solo yachts in ever decreasing diameter circles, engage in light conversation with some menacing looks..etc. Some of the boat vendors in the harbors are also becoming increasingly 'insistent' about compelling a purchase of their wares. Up the ladder we have unauthorized boardings, and physical intimidation by brandishing knives, machetes, etc. to compel the same 'hand it over'. Beyond that you have more rare situations involving firearms, primarily small pistols. There is increasing 'gang' like events with multiple assailants. Then there are the 'commercial pirates' who quite serious and often times almost military in capability. The combined efforts of several nations in the far east has recently resulted in the apprehension of a large commercial gang in the Indonesian/Malaysian waters, and the UN has called for the foreign military vessels off the horn of Africa to jointly handle the extreme conditions there. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis H. Rutledal" wrote: > > Hi > > Havent been active on the forum before, and have been very quiet on this subject, as my experience here is non-existing. > > But one thing strikes me: > > All the counter meassures mentionet here seems to assume that there is only one or two attackers, and if there should be more they will enter the boat in a very dense group. Thus you can "elliminate" all attackers in one strike with flash, sound, flames etc. > > I would believe that if you are attacked by pirates in, they will usually be more than one. They will likely spread out, and will not nececarily all try to enter the boat. Thus, any countermeassures will effect only some of the pirates. That would probably piss them off quite a bit. > > The only worse thing then being attacked by pirates is being attacked by ANGRY pirates. Most of the time pirate attacks don't lead to killing. But if they are angry, upset and even injured.... > > - Dennis > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]PÃ¥ vegne av khooper_fboats > Sendt: 8. september 2006 15:44 > Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Emne: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > > > I once heard some advice which was purported to have come from a police > > person: > > --- If you have a firearm and believe that your life is threatened by > > intruders, make sure that the first round goes into the ceiling. > > Hi Terry, > > It's very difficult to believe that any law enforcement professional > would say something like that. Without getting afield, I have to say > that if you think it might be a good idea to deliberately fire a round > at the ceiling under any circumstances whatsoever then for heaven's > sake, please, do not take a firearm onto a steel boat. > > Respectfully, > > --Ken > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11663|11628|2006-09-10 12:26:29|seeratlas|Re: Engine controls|Gord, My advice is to visualize yourself at the helm at the time and under the conditions you MOST need immediate access to the engine controls, such as manuevering in close quarters, or approaching or leaving a dock/pier etc. Stand/sit/crouch where you would during those scenarios and put your controls at the most protected location that 'falls to hand'. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gordo" wrote: > > I just encountered the dilema of engine controls placement with tiller > steering. > I've visited all the postings on the subject. No "ideal" solutions. > There just doesn't seem to be a "great" location for the cockpit > controls. > Any suggestions!! > Gord > | 11664|11517|2006-09-10 12:33:15|seeratlas|SV: [origamiboats] Re: designed-in boat security|threat id is always the first consideration. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > G'day > > At the risk of being flamed, I have to say that experience out on the oceans and talks in anchorages has shown that it is usually the American yachties who carry guns. I love you guys, but - wow! - some of you go a little over the top. This may have something to do with the US gun culture. It is also worth noting and leaving absolutley clear that the majority of American yachties do not carry guns, but the majority of gun-toting yachties are American. Anyway I have no doubt in my mind that some of the latter have chased off innocent, friendly fishermen with their John Wayne reactions. > > A smile and pack of cigarettes or (occasionally) a bottle of rum proffered when a 3rd world fisherman comes alongside is the quickest way to create a friendly situation. > > In a complete circumnavigation, we were robbed in our home port (Brisbane, Australia) of a dinghy and in Indonesia of a pair of thongs (flip-flops). On returning home, a bastard pirate in Brisbane stole the replacement dinghy. Ha ha, so watch out for that pirate-infested hell hole on the east coast of Australia![sarcasm] > > The words "pirate" and "thief" are interchangable. Think how many land-based pirates attacks occur in your own home town. And what about all the government-authorised pirates spread across the 1st and 3rd worlds, replete with badges and guns? They have always caused us many more problems with their bureaucracy, fees and crazy regulations. In fact, on another trip our most expensive pirate attack was in 2000 by a lunatic boatyard manager in Florida who shafted us and held our boat to ransom on the hard. > > Think about how you will confront the uniformed pirates before the un-uniformed ones. > > In 1993, we were sailing from Palau to Mindanao, Philippines (supposedly off limits due to pirate activity), the sun was just coming up behind me while the land was rising up ahead and I noticed two 20' open fishing boats coming up astern, one on either side. A friendly wave and a big smile from me, they came over, we swapped fish for cigarettes and everyone continued on their way. Even if they had been thinking of an attack, we altered the situation and the atmosphere before they could initiate it. > > Three (PLO?) boats confronted us coming in to Lebanon from Cyprus in early 1982, one was armed and stood 50 m off, while one tried to board and the third circled around. We hadn't got a sun sight in 3 days due to the cloud cover and were confused about our location. The Aussie embassy in Cyprus had told us not to go to Lebanon because the Israelis were massing on the border in preparation for an invasion and the embassy would not be able to help us if anything went wrong. So here we were, in the thick of it now. Wave, hello. "Smile, kids, look at the guns," my old man said to us. "Where is Jounieh?" he shouted at the locals. A pointed finger to the south. "Ok, thanks." And off we went. Pulling out weapons would have changed the situation drastically and the presence of children helped the situation not worsened it. > > There are plenty of marine "pirate" stories at www.noonsite.com . Also info about how people handled it. Last year there was an article in Cruising Helmsman about an attack near the Gulf of Aden where one of the attackers was rammed by a steel boat and disabled. > > Sorry to laugh, but some of the posts on this thread really just make me crack up. Surely it is better to discuss the topic with those that have been out there, not the armchairs warriors and wannabe cruisers. Unless it is your intention to create some humour, the creative ideas are just that - ideas. Far better to listen to what has worked or what has been installed and tested. > > Have fun and take it easy. It's a beautiful world out there. > Jim. > > > > > --------------------------------- > On Yahoo!7 > Fuel Price Watch - Find and map the cheapest petrol prices in Australia > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11665|11626|2006-09-10 12:55:05|Aaron Williams|Re: Back to boat construction|Thanks Ted That make good since to me. Aaron edward_stoneuk wrote: --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I would say the set of plans I have don't have the dimension for skeg with twin keels, but measuring by scale on the side view of the twin I get 59" along the trailing edge and 9" across the bottom.Not for certain I have the correct measurment. Any other way to get the correct size so I could pre-fab the skeg and the rudder. > Aaron Aaron, I prefabed the skeg and left the bottom open, which you need to do anyway to let the slag etc out when you cut the hole for the propeller and shaft. Then when it was all welded up I cut the bottom off to match the twin keels and welded the bottom on. I made the rudder and then cut the top to my preferred length. Regards, Ted --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11666|11517|2006-09-10 16:16:14|cirejay|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, steve rankin wrote: > I'm sure glad you "sailors" spend your time figuring how to make > yourselves inpregnable. Otherwise the cruising grounds would be > overcrowded with paranoids! Imagine what those poor folk in wood and > glass boats have to contend with. And then there is lightening to say > nothing of weather out there. Actually the safest place methinks is to > sit in your armchairs watching John Wayne movies cuddled up to a shotgun. Well said. eric S/V Nebaras| 11667|11517|2006-09-10 18:26:59|aktinsley|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|- A real life threat worth contemplation. Odds are good he had a gun onboard if I know Alaskans. My appoligized for using his story as an illustration and my condolences to Mikes faimly and friends. Ryan Dead man left to float in boat on rough seas ALASKA DIGEST Published: September 5, 2006 Last Modified: September 5, 2006 at 01:44 AM SITKA -- A Sitka man died Monday after falling from his sailboat in seas so stormy rescuers had to leave his recovered body adrift on his boat. Mike Price, 66, was moving his 40-foot sailing vessel from Cordova to Sitka with one crew member Monday afternoon when a stay broke and the boat turned perpendicular to big waves, said Coast Guard Lt. Nathan Menefee. A wave washed Price overboard, Menefee said. The crewman, Justin Perry, 24, from Bellingham, Wash., pulled Price back on board with a lifeline Price was wearing and attempted to resuscitate him. Price, who was not wearing a life jacket, was unresponsive, Menefee said. A Coast Guard helicopter arrived and lowered a rescue swimmer to the boat, which was pitching in rough seas. Price was pronounced dead at the scene. Coast Guard crews determined that the conditions were too hazardous to try to hoist Price from the boat, and that they needed to get the surviving crewman and themselves off the vessel. Price is still drifting on the boat, which is about 36 miles offshore from the Sitka area, Menefee said. Perry was sent to a hospital in Sitka but will be fine, Menefee said. Gale warnings are posted for the area, but Menefee said there might be a break in the poor weather today to send a cutter to retrieve Price's body. -- Anchorage Daily News -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, steve rankin wrote: > > I'm sure glad you "sailors" spend your time figuring how to make > > yourselves inpregnable. Otherwise the cruising grounds would be > > overcrowded with paranoids! Imagine what those poor folk in wood and > > glass boats have to contend with. And then there is lightening to say > > nothing of weather out there. Actually the safest place methinks is > to > > sit in your armchairs watching John Wayne movies cuddled up to a > shotgun. > > Well said. > > eric S/V Nebaras > | 11668|11517|2006-09-10 18:33:56|Jim Phillips|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Hear, hear, Steve. I am pissing myself laughing at these ridiculous posts. Kevlar in the stern!! Wooohooo! Spread oil around your decks. Ha ha. I bet they do the same when a burglar walks up to the front door of their house. This thread is the best round of jokes I have heard in ages. I suggest we rename it "Yachtie humour - advice for the paranoid, armchair-bound, Discovery Channel watchers." I am holding on to my guts, trying to stifle the laughter. Can´t type anymore... steve rankin wrote: seeratlas wrote: > Well, you'd have to run the range of the possible weapons they might > have. 38's and things smaller, at least for general commercially > available ammo is going to be substantially slowed, if not deflected. > You'd also want to account for the action of your foam and the nature > of your interior. 9mm on up, especially hp fully jacketed mil type > surplus or "ball" ammo will likely just come on thru. You 'could' lay > a woven kevlar panel similar to body armor, inside the transom under > your interior. This would substantially increase the chance of > capturing the round before it goes careening around your interior, and > wouldn't be prohibitedly expensive, or difficult to procure. > One good thing about steel, on your boat, the hull surfaces are mostly > curved so you have a good chance at deflection. Angle hits are > substantially less likely to penetrate than 90 degree shots . > > Now for the rest, there are lots of military things that would be > useful and a number of other things you can cook up in the sink that > make big 'bangs' or create clouds which you really don't want to spend > time inside of. Current web searches on these types of subjects, > however, may very well result in a visit :). > > I know of at least one case where a fellow employed a big squirtgun > full of ammonia to very good effect- you know the water blaster type. > Lots of very dangerous things can be freely purchased at the local > hardware/supermarket, its the delivery system that you work on. > > seer > >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > > I'm sure glad you "sailors" spend your time figuring how to make yourselves inpregnable. Otherwise the cruising grounds would be overcrowded with paranoids! Imagine what those poor folk in wood and glass boats have to contend with. And then there is lightening to say nothing of weather out there. Actually the safest place methinks is to sit in your armchairs watching John Wayne movies cuddled up to a shotgun. Steve Rankin (non paranoid cruiser) --------------------------------- On Yahoo!7 360°: Give your page a sassy look with a cool new theme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11669|11517|2006-09-10 18:51:09|Alex Christie|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|I'll take the blame for feeding this thread from my post-trauma stress. I guess it seems funny to people who read my posts about my experiences, but I was decompressing. I'm still jumpy after staring down the barrel of a .357 magnum less than a week ago, and seeing my girlfriend with a pistol to her temple for 20 minutes. I'm not recovered yet, and part of me wishes I could have done something. Naturally I think about how I could have protected myself better from these land-based pirates. I'll desist from futher commentary on the subject and get back to boats when I'm back on my feet. I'll probably be offline for a while, but I'll be back. Alex On 10-Sep-06, at 3:31 PM, Jim Phillips wrote: > Hear, hear, Steve. > > I am pissing myself laughing at these ridiculous posts. > > Kevlar in the stern!! Wooohooo! > > Spread oil around your decks. Ha ha. I bet they do the same when a > burglar walks up to the front door of their house. > > This thread is the best round of jokes I have heard in ages. I > suggest we rename it "Yachtie humour - advice for the paranoid, > armchair-bound, Discovery Channel watchers." > > I am holding on to my guts, trying to stifle the laughter. Can´t type > anymore... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11670|11517|2006-09-10 19:06:23|Jim Phillips|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Alex, Your experience was definitely not funny. Far from it. Please be assured that I was not laughing at what happened to you. You have my sympathies for what occured. However, most of the other posts are hilarious with their suggestions about how to defend/attack/liquidate/grease-up/repel/kevlar reinforced hulls etc. Jim. Alex Christie wrote: I'll take the blame for feeding this thread from my post-trauma stress. I guess it seems funny to people who read my posts about my experiences, but I was decompressing. I'm still jumpy after staring down the barrel of a .357 magnum less than a week ago, and seeing my girlfriend with a pistol to her temple for 20 minutes. I'm not recovered yet, and part of me wishes I could have done something. Naturally I think about how I could have protected myself better from these land-based pirates. I'll desist from futher commentary on the subject and get back to boats when I'm back on my feet. I'll probably be offline for a while, but I'll be back. Alex On 10-Sep-06, at 3:31 PM, Jim Phillips wrote: > Hear, hear, Steve. > > I am pissing myself laughing at these ridiculous posts. > > Kevlar in the stern!! Wooohooo! > > Spread oil around your decks. Ha ha. I bet they do the same when a > burglar walks up to the front door of their house. > > This thread is the best round of jokes I have heard in ages. I > suggest we rename it "Yachtie humour - advice for the paranoid, > armchair-bound, Discovery Channel watchers." > > I am holding on to my guts, trying to stifle the laughter. Can´t type > anymore... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- On Yahoo!7 PS Trixi - The new interactive online adventure [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11671|11517|2006-09-10 20:56:12|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Some people require, request, and can afford security not required for less notable people. You'd obviously be surprised at how many yachts have been designed from the start to incorporate security considerations. It is quite common. Almost all of them incorporate kevlar panels as do all of the official vehicles used to convey American dignitaries, and a number of military vehicles and aircraft. It is used to slow and contain projectiles. It is also quite cheap and readily available. The man asked what could be done to increase bullet resistance. I didn't find it a ridiculous request. But perhaps I don't have the experience at pissing yourself that you apparently do. As for the oil on the decks, I think I missed that post. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Hear, hear, Steve. > > I am pissing myself laughing at these ridiculous posts. > > Kevlar in the stern!! Wooohooo! > > Spread oil around your decks. Ha ha. I bet they do the same when a burglar walks up to the front door of their house. > > This thread is the best round of jokes I have heard in ages. I suggest we rename it "Yachtie humour - advice for the paranoid, armchair-bound, Discovery Channel watchers." > > I am holding on to my guts, trying to stifle the laughter. Can´t type anymore... > > > > steve rankin wrote: > seeratlas wrote: > > > Well, you'd have to run the range of the possible weapons they might > > have. 38's and things smaller, at least for general commercially > > available ammo is going to be substantially slowed, if not deflected. > > You'd also want to account for the action of your foam and the nature > > of your interior. 9mm on up, especially hp fully jacketed mil type > > surplus or "ball" ammo will likely just come on thru. You 'could' lay > > a woven kevlar panel similar to body armor, inside the transom under > > your interior. This would substantially increase the chance of > > capturing the round before it goes careening around your interior, and > > wouldn't be prohibitedly expensive, or difficult to procure. > > One good thing about steel, on your boat, the hull surfaces are mostly > > curved so you have a good chance at deflection. Angle hits are > > substantially less likely to penetrate than 90 degree shots . > > > > Now for the rest, there are lots of military things that would be > > useful and a number of other things you can cook up in the sink that > > make big 'bangs' or create clouds which you really don't want to spend > > time inside of. Current web searches on these types of subjects, > > however, may very well result in a visit :). > > > > I know of at least one case where a fellow employed a big squirtgun > > full of ammonia to very good effect- you know the water blaster type. > > Lots of very dangerous things can be freely purchased at the local > > hardware/supermarket, its the delivery system that you work on. > > > > seer > > > > >Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > > > > > I'm sure glad you "sailors" spend your time figuring how to make > yourselves inpregnable. Otherwise the cruising grounds would be > overcrowded with paranoids! Imagine what those poor folk in wood and > glass boats have to contend with. And then there is lightening to say > nothing of weather out there. Actually the safest place methinks is to > sit in your armchairs watching John Wayne movies cuddled up to a shotgun. > > Steve Rankin (non paranoid cruiser) > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > On Yahoo!7 > 360°: Give your page a sassy look with a cool new theme > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11672|11517|2006-09-10 21:10:16|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Alex, when you get back drop me a priv email and I'll forward the money for your cd's. As for dealing with your experience, it just takes time. Providence has smiled on you and your girlfriend. And don't concern yourself about trying to explain your feelings to others. One thing tho, I'll bet you notice new smells, more vibrant colors in the sunsets, and sounds of little things you never noticed before. :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I'll take the blame for feeding this thread from my post-trauma stress. > I guess it seems funny to people who read my posts about my > experiences, but I was decompressing. I'm still jumpy after staring > down the barrel of a .357 magnum less than a week ago, and seeing my > girlfriend with a pistol to her temple for 20 minutes. I'm not > recovered yet, and part of me wishes I could have done something. > Naturally I think about how I could have protected myself better from > these land-based pirates. I'll desist from futher commentary on the > subject and get back to boats when I'm back on my feet. I'll probably > be offline for a while, but I'll be back. > > Alex > > On 10-Sep-06, at 3:31 PM, Jim Phillips wrote: > > > Hear, hear, Steve. > > > > I am pissing myself laughing at these ridiculous posts. > > > > Kevlar in the stern!! Wooohooo! > > > > Spread oil around your decks. Ha ha. I bet they do the same when a > > burglar walks up to the front door of their house. > > > > This thread is the best round of jokes I have heard in ages. I > > suggest we rename it "Yachtie humour - advice for the paranoid, > > armchair-bound, Discovery Channel watchers." > > > > I am holding on to my guts, trying to stifle the laughter. Can´t type > > anymore... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11673|11517|2006-09-10 21:41:55|Alex Christie|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Yep, even the paler sunsets look stunning to me right now, and I never realized how much I love the smell of dry leaves on the sidewalk. Everything seems connected and relevant in this universe. Definitely have a newfound respect and reverence for life now, I guess that's the positive aspect to all this. Alex On 10-Sep-06, at 6:09 PM, seeratlas wrote: > Alex, when you get back drop me a priv email and I'll forward the > money for your cd's. As for dealing with your experience, it just > takes time. Providence has smiled on you and your girlfriend. And > don't concern yourself about trying to explain your feelings to > others. One thing tho, I'll bet you notice new smells, more vibrant > colors in the sunsets, and sounds of little things you never noticed > before. :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11674|11628|2006-09-10 23:26:20|gschnell|Re: Engine controls|Thanks Seer. Looks like it will end up on the aft end of the port combings. Only useable and available spot left. Thanks Gord seeratlas wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable | 11675|11517|2006-09-11 01:59:44|peter_d_wiley|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > I've put a 7x57 Mauser FMJ round through 6mm of plate at 200m. In > practical terms, a > > 5mm steel hull will stop most pistol rounds, anything of cast lead > and pretty much > > nothing else. Must try a 7.62x39 one day as it's the cartridge of > choice these days but I > > expect it'd blow through. > > > > PDW > > > > it will, at least in the spec for the swain boats, absent some kind of > kevlar/carbon/boron type shielding. The latest body armor being > tested is an interesting variation on the old scale mail > model.essentially overlapping individual trauma plates in a webbing. I think we can all take it as read that yachts are not significantly resistant to small arms fire except the most trivial sort - 22LR, shotguns with pellets etc. You have no great chance of outrunning a powerboat except in odd circumstances. If you carry arms, most countries will confiscate them while you're in national waters and the better ones will return them when you clear out. The others will have lost the guns. Best solution is to be somewhere you don't need firearms and there are few or no people prepared to make an armed assault on you to steal property. Works for me. PDW| 11676|11517|2006-09-11 06:59:31|cirejay|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > slocum put nails on his decks at night in the tropics i believe :) Tierra del Fuego, actually; given a few more years it may be tropical. eric S/V Nebaras| 11677|11517|2006-09-11 11:10:50|David A. Frantz|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|Hi Jim; Believe me in the situation described I do believe that Alex did the right thing. When somebody is holdiing a gun to a friend of yours you have to be extremely careful to prevent things coming out badly. On the other hand I see nohting hilarious in trying to prevnet such things from happening in the first place. Especially on a ship far from port. There are recent examples of alternative technology working very well on ships at sea. Atleast one involved a high intensity sound source that successfully repelled a pirateing attempt on a cruise ship. The fact that the ideas presented here are of much low cost and far less technology intensive is the result of most of us simply not having the cash nor the space on our craft for the hardware choose by the cruise lines. If you want to believe that personal boating equipment isn't targetted by thieves all over the world that is fine with me. But that is not the reality anywhere. The bigger issue is that pirating in some parts of the world is extremely violent. I see nothing wrong with passive or active ideas that may be incorporated into a craft to combat such problems. Personally that is what I'm interested in, that is what can be incorporated into a boat to help reduce the potential for losses. Dave Jim Phillips wrote: > Alex, > > Your experience was definitely not funny. Far from it. Please be > assured that I was not laughing at what happened to you. You have my > sympathies for what occured. > > However, most of the other posts are hilarious with their suggestions > about how to defend/attack/liquidate/grease-up/repel/kevlar reinforced > hulls etc. > > Jim. > > > > Alex Christie > wrote: > I'll take the blame for feeding this thread from my post-trauma stress. > I guess it seems funny to people who read my posts about my > experiences, but I was decompressing. I'm still jumpy after staring > down the barrel of a .357 magnum less than a week ago, and seeing my > girlfriend with a pistol to her temple for 20 minutes. I'm not > recovered yet, and part of me wishes I could have done something. > Naturally I think about how I could have protected myself better from > these land-based pirates. I'll desist from futher commentary on the > subject and get back to boats when I'm back on my feet. I'll probably > be offline for a while, but I'll be back. > > Alex > > On 10-Sep-06, at 3:31 PM, Jim Phillips wrote: > > > Hear, hear, Steve. > > > > I am pissing myself laughing at these ridiculous posts. > > > > Kevlar in the stern!! Wooohooo! > > > > Spread oil around your decks. Ha ha. I bet they do the same when a > > burglar walks up to the front door of their house. > > > > This thread is the best round of jokes I have heard in ages. I > > suggest we rename it "Yachtie humour - advice for the paranoid, > > armchair-bound, Discovery Channel watchers." > > > > I am holding on to my guts, trying to stifle the laughter. Can´t type > > anymore... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > --------------------------------- > On Yahoo!7 > PS Trixi - The new interactive online adventure > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 11678|11678|2006-09-11 15:02:52|Ray|Security|It's become quite obvious that we have folks on both ends of the spectrum w/r/t how to best handle problems brought on by ill-intended individuals. I appreciate the helpful comments, and the perspectives related from pleasant personal experiences. Some of them have been thought provoking. I sincerely hope that for those who think *it* won't happen to them, that *it* doesn't. NOW - next contentious topic: Junk Rigs, good or bad? (JUST KIDDING!!!) Ray| 11679|11517|2006-09-11 23:32:04|seeratlas|Re: Sailboat security and or defence|It DOES seem to be getting warmer doesn't it :) I stand corrected :) been a looooong time since I read that book :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "cirejay" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > > > slocum put nails on his decks at night in the tropics i believe :) > > Tierra del Fuego, actually; given a few more years it may be tropical. > > eric S/V Nebaras > | 11680|11386|2006-09-13 05:51:06|Alfredo Nannetti|BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|First of all thanks to all of you abuot the answers that you gave me weeks ago about the problem of "blistering below the water line". If you don't mind I would like put all your suggeriment togheter in the way that you could say if what i'm writing is wrong or wright. 1) The best protection for a boat is with zink (first coat) but it wuold be better not to put it below the water line (outside) 2) If you use pre-treated sheets (and they are generally treated with zink) it is necessary gave a lot of coats of epoxy for avoiding the pinholes. 3) In any case, ALWAYS multiple coats 4) Avoid to put solvent in to the paint or, at list, less possible 5) If you "have to" use solvents, give the time between one coats and the other to evaporate (24 hours?) 6)avoid the possibility of "dust motes" causing tiny pinholes. In case take them off and fill them with a tiny brush Is all that right? Shell we say that the "blistering problem" is not a problem anymore? Anything else? thanks alfredo (italy)| 11681|11386|2006-09-13 11:15:58|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 11:47:02AM +0200, Alfredo Nannetti wrote: > First of all thanks to all of you abuot the answers that you gave me > weeks ago about the problem of "blistering below the water line". > > If you don't mind I would like put all your suggeriment togheter in > the way that you could say if what i'm writing is wrong or wright. > > 1) The best protection for a boat is with zink (first coat) but it > wuold be better not to put it below the water line (outside) > > 2) If you use pre-treated sheets (and they are generally treated with > zink) it is necessary gave a lot of coats of epoxy for avoiding the > pinholes. > > 3) In any case, ALWAYS multiple coats > > 4) Avoid to put solvent in to the paint or, at list, less possible Some paints - e.g., Devoe's 235 primer, which I'm told is the stuff that the US Navy and the Coast Guard use - require a certain amount of solvent (if I recall correctly, it's 15% by volume for spraying and 10% for rolling.) I can certainly tell you this: if you don't maintain a certain amount of solvent in it, it becomes unusable until more is added. Otherwise, it's sort of like trying to paint with sour cream. That 'critical' amount is somewhere just below 10%. > 5) If you "have to" use solvents, give the time between one coats and > the other to evaporate (24 hours?) In my experience last winter, the stuff was essentially tack-free in about 45 minutes at ~60degF (15.5degC). When we examined the surface carefully, which was after each coat, there were no visible pinholes. When mixed properly, 235 is very viscous, and once you put it on a surface, it's not likely to pull away. It also didn't produce many bubbles even in the mixing pot. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11682|11386|2006-09-13 11:37:01|seeratlas|Re: BLISTERING BELOW THE WATER LINE|Ciao Alfredo :) Someone recommended to me to check out the website "Epoxy.com" so I'll pass it on to you. These guys seem to really know epoxy/urethane etc. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alfredo Nannetti" wrote: > > First of all thanks to all of you abuot the answers that you gave me > weeks ago about the problem of "blistering below the water line". > > If you don't mind I would like put all your suggeriment togheter in > the way that you could say if what i'm writing is wrong or wright. > > 1) The best protection for a boat is with zink (first coat) but it > wuold be better not to put it below the water line (outside) > > 2) If you use pre-treated sheets (and they are generally treated with > zink) it is necessary gave a lot of coats of epoxy for avoiding the > pinholes. > > 3) In any case, ALWAYS multiple coats > > 4) Avoid to put solvent in to the paint or, at list, less possible > > 5) If you "have to" use solvents, give the time between one coats and > the other to evaporate (24 hours?) > > 6)avoid the possibility of "dust motes" causing tiny pinholes. In > case take them off and fill them with a tiny brush > > > Is all that right? > Shell we say that the "blistering problem" is not a problem anymore? > Anything else? > thanks > alfredo (italy) > | 11683|11683|2006-09-13 23:52:24|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|I had mentioned in an earlier post that the IMB was recommending a type of electric fence as a defensive measure for big commercial boats. Apparently there is a dutch company that has such a system for yachts but at 15,000.00 Euros, for the system, you begin to wonder just "WHO" is the "Pirate" LOL. In any event it occurred to me that anybody boarding a swain boat is going to be grabbing onto the secure steel railing....and since I have some familiarity with the cattle and horse industries' use of electric fencing, I wondered if there is a cheaper way to do this. Low and behold...check out the little chargers on this page http://www.sureguard.com.au/cattle_electric_fence.mv There are a number of companies that produce these kind of things, some of which are even solar powered :) heheh but since the commercial unit seems to think that 9k volts is plenty, and the site I list has a system for Bears!!! which is also 9k, I would think that on a small boat, affixing live wires, probably galvanized steel set into somekind of non conducive adhesive, running along the INSIDE lower part of the rails (so as to not be visible from outside the boat, and to guarantee that anyone swinging aboard is going to contact both the wire and the grounded rail when they grab onto that top rail......well as they used to say in the Batman movies 'ZAAAPO!!!" at the least I think it would result in a 'splash down' by anyone climbing aboard without gloves... The energizer located inside the boat could easily be armed and disarmed as required, and should some errant official climb aboard unannounced and get a nasty shock, assuming the captain developed his deadpan acting skills, he could (on a metal boat after all :) hehehe) attribute the nasty shock as unintended "static discharge" :) with a reasonably straight face :) Note the cost of the small portable unit (designed to deter attacks while camping from bears, is something on the order of 99$ Australian which seems to me far more reasonable than the 15000.00 euro commercial job :) With the charger inside the boat out of the weather and using galvanized wire, I would think the system would stand up to marine use pretty well, and after all, when the wire finally started to deteriorate, it should be cheap to replace. One side effect, it would probably knock the stuffing out of any pelican, cormorant etc. that decided to take a snooze on your railing while making some deposits on your decks.. I believe most of the units pulse every few seconds, but I suspect that with the help of a "double e" an even cheaper array of capacitors could be purchased and used to create a system as strong as anyone could possibly want.....At some point you have to make a decision as to how much damage you want to cause. In any event, I think this might be a practical possibility applicable to ensuring that you don't wake up in your bunk until the the uninvited guests are already coming down the hatch. For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like what you suggested has never happened. seer| 11684|11683|2006-09-14 04:52:15|edward_stoneuk|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|Hi Seer, From my experience with electic fences on the farm I think that a conductor fixed with non conductive adhesive along the inside of the gunwhale pipe would be liable to short in wet weather and thus be ineffective. I remember that wet grass could short a battery operated electric fence. Regards, Ted| 11685|11683|2006-09-14 07:05:46|Dennis H. Rutledal|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security- electric fence|The bonus effect with such a system is that if you are really really tired one morning and forget to turn it off, you won't be tired for long... A nice way to jumpstart the day :D Dennis -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]PÃ¥ vegne av seeratlas Sendt: 14. september 2006 05:46 Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Emne: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security- electric fence I had mentioned in an earlier post that the IMB was recommending a type of electric fence as a defensive measure for big commercial boats. Apparently there is a dutch company that has such a system for yachts but at 15,000.00 Euros, for the system, you begin to wonder just "WHO" is the "Pirate" LOL. In any event it occurred to me that anybody boarding a swain boat is going to be grabbing onto the secure steel railing....and since I have some familiarity with the cattle and horse industries' use of electric fencing, I wondered if there is a cheaper way to do this. Low and behold...check out the little chargers on this page http://www.sureguar d.com.au/cattle_electric_fence.mv There are a number of companies that produce these kind of things, some of which are even solar powered :) heheh but since the commercial unit seems to think that 9k volts is plenty, and the site I list has a system for Bears!!! which is also 9k, I would think that on a small boat, affixing live wires, probably galvanized steel set into somekind of non conducive adhesive, running along the INSIDE lower part of the rails (so as to not be visible from outside the boat, and to guarantee that anyone swinging aboard is going to contact both the wire and the grounded rail when they grab onto that top rail......well as they used to say in the Batman movies 'ZAAAPO!!!" at the least I think it would result in a 'splash down' by anyone climbing aboard without gloves... The energizer located inside the boat could easily be armed and disarmed as required, and should some errant official climb aboard unannounced and get a nasty shock, assuming the captain developed his deadpan acting skills, he could (on a metal boat after all :) hehehe) attribute the nasty shock as unintended "static discharge" :) with a reasonably straight face :) Note the cost of the small portable unit (designed to deter attacks while camping from bears, is something on the order of 99$ Australian which seems to me far more reasonable than the 15000.00 euro commercial job :) With the charger inside the boat out of the weather and using galvanized wire, I would think the system would stand up to marine use pretty well, and after all, when the wire finally started to deteriorate, it should be cheap to replace. One side effect, it would probably knock the stuffing out of any pelican, cormorant etc. that decided to take a snooze on your railing while making some deposits on your decks.. I believe most of the units pulse every few seconds, but I suspect that with the help of a "double e" an even cheaper array of capacitors could be purchased and used to create a system as strong as anyone could possibly want.....At some point you have to make a decision as to how much damage you want to cause. In any event, I think this might be a practical possibility applicable to ensuring that you don't wake up in your bunk until the the uninvited guests are already coming down the hatch. For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like what you suggested has never happened. seer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11686|11683|2006-09-14 10:28:45|Sugar|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security- electric fence|FUNNY! hehehe And Seer, yes the solar powered charges work good. I bought one last month and it's great. No more wires running all over the ground to get the power out where I need it. Solar is a very good way to go. Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis H. Rutledal" wrote: > > The bonus effect with such a system is that if you are really really tired one morning and forget to turn it off, you won't be tired for long... > > A nice way to jumpstart the day :D > > Dennis > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]PÃ¥ vegne av seeratlas > Sendt: 14. september 2006 05:46 > Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Emne: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security- electric fence > > > > I had mentioned in an earlier post that the IMB was recommending a > type of electric fence as a defensive measure for big commercial > boats. Apparently there is a dutch company that has such a system for > yachts but at 15,000.00 Euros, for the system, you begin to wonder > just "WHO" is the "Pirate" LOL. > > In any event it occurred to me that anybody boarding a swain boat is > going to be grabbing onto the secure steel railing....and since I have > some familiarity with the cattle and horse industries' use of electric > fencing, I wondered if there is a cheaper way to do this. > > Low and behold...check out the little chargers on this page > > http://www.sureguar d.com.au/cattle_electric_fence.mv > > There are a number of companies that produce these kind of things, > some of which are even solar powered :) heheh but since the commercial > unit seems to think that 9k volts is plenty, and the site I list has a > system for Bears!!! which is also 9k, I would think that on a small > boat, affixing live wires, probably galvanized steel set into somekind > of non conducive adhesive, running along the INSIDE lower part of the > rails (so as to not be visible from outside the boat, and to guarantee > that anyone swinging aboard is going to contact both the wire and the > grounded rail when they grab onto that top rail......well as they used > to say in the Batman movies 'ZAAAPO!!!" > > at the least I think it would result in a 'splash down' by anyone > climbing aboard without gloves... The energizer located inside the > boat could easily be armed and disarmed as required, and should some > errant official climb aboard unannounced and get a nasty shock, > assuming the captain developed his deadpan acting skills, he could (on > a metal boat after all :) hehehe) attribute the nasty shock as > unintended "static discharge" :) with a reasonably straight face :) > > Note the cost of the small portable unit (designed to deter attacks > while camping from bears, is something on the order of 99$ Australian > which seems to me far more reasonable than the 15000.00 euro > commercial job :) With the charger inside the boat out of the weather > and using galvanized wire, I would think the system would stand up to > marine use pretty well, and after all, when the wire finally started > to deteriorate, it should be cheap to replace. > > One side effect, it would probably knock the stuffing out of any > pelican, cormorant etc. that decided to take a snooze on your railing > while making some deposits on your decks.. > > I believe most of the units pulse every few seconds, but I suspect > that with the help of a "double e" an even cheaper array of capacitors > could be purchased and used to create a system as strong as anyone > could possibly want.....At some point you have to make a decision as > to how much damage you want to cause. > > In any event, I think this might be a practical possibility applicable > to ensuring that you don't wake up in your bunk until the the > uninvited guests are already coming down the hatch. > > For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, > and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability > of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of > armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind > and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding > the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like > what you suggested has never happened. > > seer > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11687|11683|2006-09-14 10:45:52|woodcraftssuch|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: I remember that wet grass could short a battery operated > electric fence. > Ted My first electric fence was for a few baby pigs, one wire about 6" off the ground and another at 18". It was the 50,000 volt 'weedcutter' type and worked well, green weeds were cut short with a zzzztttt sound, a dancing arc and a little smoke. Sweet! Wanting a closer look, I got down on my hands and knees and was looking down the length of the wire, when somehow my nose came in contact with it. 35 years later, I can still remember being glued to the situation, my vision overtaken by horizontal bands of white light. Fortunately, those things pulse on and off a few times a second to let you re-evaluate. Another excellent event with the fence was when the neighbors stopped by with the 'city' dog they were babysitting, a ribbon winning retriever who thoroughly enjoyed retrieving sticks in the country. After he somehow got himself astraddle the lower wire with the upper on his back, and went yowling and yelping down the lenth of the fence, the last I saw of him he was turning the corner at a dead run without even looking back. Eventually, he was coaxed out of the woods and sent home, the occasion kept a secret from the owner. We have trouble at the bird feeder with 'cowbirds', who arrive in a flock, chase away the other birds and then eat everything in a few minutes. They also have the shiftless habit of laying their eggs in other birds nests and letting them raise their whelps. I wired the perch to the fencer and a switch. The switch is neccessary to be selective about who gets what, also because their feet automatically close up, they swing upside down flapping their wings and squawking. I don't want to kill them, just ruffle their feathers. I don't care what anyone thinks, it's great fun. I think the fencer would be a swell deterrent to people. I think wiring it up to the doorknobs on a house or the railing on a boat would make someone think twice about breaking and entering. As with Slocum's tacks on the deck, it would disrupt the quiet, stealthy approach used by nightime invaders and would be like an automatic doorbell. Here's a blurb from a zoo fence made for bears, notice that it is teamed up with noise and lights as further deterrents. In my younger days, a random step rigged up to a siren and lights sent me back over a 9' barbed wire topped fence in 1/10 the time it took to get over it to begin with. "The fence was power by a standard agricultural energiser which produced a charge of 6,000-8,000 volts, at 0.5 amps per second. The energiser ran from mains power but was equipped with a battery backup system which could potentially run the perimeter for up to two weeks if case of an electrical failure. Also, an audible alarm and pulse light beacon were features of this particular energiser, which automatically activated if the fence charge dropped below 3,000 volts." Here's the site it came from... Sam http://www.zoocheck.com/programs/zoocheck/electric.shtml| 11688|11683|2006-09-14 10:51:51|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:45:39AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Seer, > >From my experience with electic fences on the farm I think that a > conductor fixed with non conductive adhesive along the inside of the > gunwhale pipe would be liable to short in wet weather and thus be > ineffective. I remember that wet grass could short a battery operated > electric fence. It would also drain the batteries in pretty short order. Assuming even a 100-milliamp leakage current in damp weather, you're looking at 9000v * .1A = 900W, which works out to 900W / 12v = 75A. An hour or two of rain at night, and you're going to wake up to dead batteries - and the 'zapper' system is going to quit long before that. But the key problem is that it is, once again, what professionals call "movie plot security". It relies on the bad guy to do a specific thing that he's not actually constrained to do, and expends resources in defending from that specific "danger". * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11689|11683|2006-09-14 11:01:55|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 03:45:53AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, > and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability > of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of > armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind > and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding > the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like > what you suggested has never happened. It's possible to claim anything at all - reports of flying bullets everywhere, "pirates ... coming up fast from behind", etc., but unless you have an actual citation from a *reliable* source - say, a Venezuelan newspaper in the latter case - it's just so much fear-mongering. So, if you have an actual cite, or even a URL pointing to a reliable resource, I'm sure that we'd all appreciate seeing it. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11690|11683|2006-09-14 13:09:26|Aaron Williams|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|So if all this light weight juice get grounded to the boat how many more anodes will you need and how many will you have to give your neighbor when they find out you ate up theirs. Aaron "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:45:39AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Seer, > >From my experience with electic fences on the farm I think that a > conductor fixed with non conductive adhesive along the inside of the > gunwhale pipe would be liable to short in wet weather and thus be > ineffective. I remember that wet grass could short a battery operated > electric fence. It would also drain the batteries in pretty short order. Assuming even a 100-milliamp leakage current in damp weather, you're looking at 9000v * .1A = 900W, which works out to 900W / 12v = 75A. An hour or two of rain at night, and you're going to wake up to dead batteries - and the 'zapper' system is going to quit long before that. But the key problem is that it is, once again, what professionals call "movie plot security". It relies on the bad guy to do a specific thing that he's not actually constrained to do, and expends resources in defending from that specific "danger". * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! MessengerÂ’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11691|11683|2006-09-14 13:29:48|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:08:14AM -0700, Aaron Williams wrote: > So if all this light weight juice get grounded to the boat how many > more anodes will you need and how many will you have to give your > neighbor when they find out you ate up theirs. Heck, Aaron, it's _easy_ to tell if that happens: just look for schools of fish (and scuba divers!) jumping out of the water around your boat. :) Seriously, though, you're absolutely right: a bad ground/connection to the water plus a bit of less-than-careful wiring at 9-50kV would indeed eat chunks out of your hull (or your neighbor's hull) in zip time. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11692|11683|2006-09-14 19:03:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|Sam, Yes a farm near here has a mains powered electric fence that I'm told doesn't get effected by shorting to earth through wet grass. I haven't tied it myself, the novelty of electric shocks has long gone. One could have a mains generator on board to give the system some zap. It could possibly make relieving oneself over the side of the boat a memorable experience. Regards, Ted| 11693|11683|2006-09-14 20:31:41|seeratlas|SV: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security- electric fence|LOL :) might be a good idea to put the switch in red near the bunk so its the first thing you see when you wake up LOL :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis H. Rutledal" wrote: > > The bonus effect with such a system is that if you are really really tired one morning and forget to turn it off, you won't be tired for long... > > A nice way to jumpstart the day :D > > Dennis > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]PÃ¥ vegne av seeratlas > Sendt: 14. september 2006 05:46 > Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Emne: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security- electric fence > > > > I had mentioned in an earlier post that the IMB was recommending a > type of electric fence as a defensive measure for big commercial > boats. Apparently there is a dutch company that has such a system for > yachts but at 15,000.00 Euros, for the system, you begin to wonder > just "WHO" is the "Pirate" LOL. > > In any event it occurred to me that anybody boarding a swain boat is > going to be grabbing onto the secure steel railing....and since I have > some familiarity with the cattle and horse industries' use of electric > fencing, I wondered if there is a cheaper way to do this. > > Low and behold...check out the little chargers on this page > > http://www.sureguar d.com.au/cattle_electric_fence.mv > > There are a number of companies that produce these kind of things, > some of which are even solar powered :) heheh but since the commercial > unit seems to think that 9k volts is plenty, and the site I list has a > system for Bears!!! which is also 9k, I would think that on a small > boat, affixing live wires, probably galvanized steel set into somekind > of non conducive adhesive, running along the INSIDE lower part of the > rails (so as to not be visible from outside the boat, and to guarantee > that anyone swinging aboard is going to contact both the wire and the > grounded rail when they grab onto that top rail......well as they used > to say in the Batman movies 'ZAAAPO!!!" > > at the least I think it would result in a 'splash down' by anyone > climbing aboard without gloves... The energizer located inside the > boat could easily be armed and disarmed as required, and should some > errant official climb aboard unannounced and get a nasty shock, > assuming the captain developed his deadpan acting skills, he could (on > a metal boat after all :) hehehe) attribute the nasty shock as > unintended "static discharge" :) with a reasonably straight face :) > > Note the cost of the small portable unit (designed to deter attacks > while camping from bears, is something on the order of 99$ Australian > which seems to me far more reasonable than the 15000.00 euro > commercial job :) With the charger inside the boat out of the weather > and using galvanized wire, I would think the system would stand up to > marine use pretty well, and after all, when the wire finally started > to deteriorate, it should be cheap to replace. > > One side effect, it would probably knock the stuffing out of any > pelican, cormorant etc. that decided to take a snooze on your railing > while making some deposits on your decks.. > > I believe most of the units pulse every few seconds, but I suspect > that with the help of a "double e" an even cheaper array of capacitors > could be purchased and used to create a system as strong as anyone > could possibly want.....At some point you have to make a decision as > to how much damage you want to cause. > > In any event, I think this might be a practical possibility applicable > to ensuring that you don't wake up in your bunk until the the > uninvited guests are already coming down the hatch. > > For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, > and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability > of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of > armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind > and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding > the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like > what you suggested has never happened. > > seer > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11694|11683|2006-09-14 20:33:43|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|Will do. I'll see if I can compile a compendium of relevant events over the last few years and post it up sometime this weekend. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 03:45:53AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, > > and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability > > of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of > > armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind > > and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding > > the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like > > what you suggested has never happened. > > It's possible to claim anything at all - reports of flying bullets > everywhere, "pirates ... coming up fast from behind", etc., but unless > you have an actual citation from a *reliable* source - say, a Venezuelan > newspaper in the latter case - it's just so much fear-mongering. So, if > you have an actual cite, or even a URL pointing to a reliable resource, > I'm sure that we'd all appreciate seeing it. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11695|11683|2006-09-14 20:35:47|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|That's a good point and one I'm trying to research. Since othere than the moment that someone makes a contact, the fence is not actually conducting current, I don't know that any additiona hull potential is produced but I think that's something to be tested in fact not theory as I've heard so many experts on both side of the lead everything to a grounding strip, to 'isolate the hell out of everything', its hard to know who knows what. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > So if all this light weight juice get grounded to the boat how many more anodes will you need and how many will you have to give your neighbor when they find out you ate up theirs. > Aaron > > "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:45:39AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > >From my experience with electic fences on the farm I think that a > > conductor fixed with non conductive adhesive along the inside of the > > gunwhale pipe would be liable to short in wet weather and thus be > > ineffective. I remember that wet grass could short a battery operated > > electric fence. > > It would also drain the batteries in pretty short order. Assuming even a > 100-milliamp leakage current in damp weather, you're looking at 9000v > * .1A = 900W, which works out to 900W / 12v = 75A. An hour or two of > rain at night, and you're going to wake up to dead batteries - and the > 'zapper' system is going to quit long before that. > > But the key problem is that it is, once again, what professionals call > "movie plot security". It relies on the bad guy to do a specific thing > that he's not actually constrained to do, and expends resources in > defending from that specific "danger". > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > > --------------------------------- > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11696|11683|2006-09-14 20:37:20|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|I think you're missing something. As I understand it, what happens is that a capacitance is built up between the hot wire and the ground wire. Two different scenarios are employed, first from wire to wire, and second from wire to ground. in my case the one I tried to describe was a set of two wires, one hot, one not so to speak :) which presented a complete circuit only when someone grabbed the rail and simultaneously came into contact with both wires at the same time. ONly when the circuit was thus closed would any current flow, seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:45:39AM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > >From my experience with electic fences on the farm I think that a > > conductor fixed with non conductive adhesive along the inside of the > > gunwhale pipe would be liable to short in wet weather and thus be > > ineffective. I remember that wet grass could short a battery operated > > electric fence. > > It would also drain the batteries in pretty short order. Assuming even a > 100-milliamp leakage current in damp weather, you're looking at 9000v > * .1A = 900W, which works out to 900W / 12v = 75A. An hour or two of > rain at night, and you're going to wake up to dead batteries - and the > 'zapper' system is going to quit long before that. > > But the key problem is that it is, once again, what professionals call > "movie plot security". It relies on the bad guy to do a specific thing > that he's not actually constrained to do, and expends resources in > defending from that specific "danger". > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11697|11683|2006-09-14 20:43:36|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|If you look at the page I cited, they describe a system to ward off bears while you're sleeping in dangerous country. In the northern area of the Soviet Union where I was speaking to a group of reindeer herding nomads, there werea number of explorer types who were venturing into the areas frequented by polar bears which routinely eat people. I recall one Finish fellow who had such a portable electric system with him, tho I do recall him telling me that he hadn't had the opportunity to have a hungry bear test it yet and hoped he never did :) hehe. In any event since the system I envision fooling with involves jumping from insulated wire to insulated wire, and not to ocean ground, I'm not sure I have a circuit problem in the water, tho some rise in the potential of the hull might occur which again, bears (pun intended) further investigation. I'll let you know what I find out. Again there is a 15,000.00 euro yacht version of this thing available commercially and for that amount of money, I'm thinking someone has sorted all this out. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > Sam, > > Yes a farm near here has a mains powered electric fence that I'm told > doesn't get effected by shorting to earth through wet grass. I > haven't tied it myself, the novelty of electric shocks has long gone. > One could have a mains generator on board to give the system some > zap. It could possibly make relieving oneself over the side of the > boat a memorable experience. > > Regards, > Ted > | 11698|11683|2006-09-14 21:18:18|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 12:33:07AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > I think you're missing something. As I understand it, what happens is > that a capacitance is built up between the hot wire and the ground > wire. Capacitance doesn't "build up"; it's a property of conductors that are located near each other, and is a constant that depends mainly on the geometry of the arrangement. Neither does capacitance between those wires make any difference - except to provide a small but constant leak, since capacitors conduct pulsing or alternating current. > Two different scenarios are employed, first from wire to wire, > and second from wire to ground. in my case the one I tried to > describe was a set of two wires, one hot, one not so to speak :) which > presented a complete circuit only when someone grabbed the rail and > simultaneously came into contact with both wires at the same time. > ONly when the circuit was thus closed would any current flow, That's right - but there's nothing that requires a human body as the element that closes the circuit. Rain water will do just fine - and a splash of sea water would be just the thing... at least if you want to empty those batteries in a hurry. Pedro Samblich's carpet tacks spread on deck by Joshua Slocum were a great solution for their time: they were cheap, used no energy, were essentially unavoidable in the dark, and provided a loud alarm in case of intrusion. :) That's a solution that meets a bunch of good criteria; too bad it's not likely to be effective today. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11699|11683|2006-09-15 02:53:25|jim_both|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|A web site that has some piracy reports: http://www.sail-world.com/Piracy/ The article "False Perceptions of Piracy in Asia" is a good read. Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 03:45:53AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. Oh, > > and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the ability > > of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of > > armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from behind > > and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire wounding > > the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not like > > what you suggested has never happened. > > It's possible to claim anything at all - reports of flying bullets > everywhere, "pirates ... coming up fast from behind", etc., but unless > you have an actual citation from a *reliable* source - say, a Venezuelan > newspaper in the latter case - it's just so much fear-mongering. So, if > you have an actual cite, or even a URL pointing to a reliable resource, > I'm sure that we'd all appreciate seeing it. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11700|11700|2006-09-15 14:57:11|jonhackett44|"Big Girips" terminal eyes|Has anyone tried Preformed Line Products "Big Grip" or "Guy Grip" terminal eyes for their standing rigging? I'm interested in any experiences y'all have had with this clever alternative to swaged eyes. If you're interested, here is the website for the Big Grips. http://preformed.com/content/ProductFamilyOverview.aspx? Industry=5&Group=19&Category=0&Series=158&Family=420 P.S. Sorry I missed you at Lasqueti Brent!! Jon| 11701|11683|2006-09-15 15:09:01|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence -capacitors|For anyone that's 'really' interested in the subject, here's a tutorial on capacitors. http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/caps/caps.html A detailed description of how they work is set forth therein. Now, as to semantics, , tho it was many years ago, at the institution where and when I studied engineering, math, plasma physics, chemistry, and a host of other related and un-related subjects, (not the least of which was the figure of the lithe brunette who surprisingly seemed to be duplicating at least my scientific curriculum at that time :) discussions of "building up a charge" or "charging the capacitor" or even the dreaded phrase that seems to trigger semantical righteous indignation and loathing in certain alternative op system afficionados...to wit- "building up capacitance" in a circuit were widely used terminologies and as far as I know, in fact continue to be used today by scientific types in all manner of technical discussion and documentation. For example, here's a recent patent application utilizing that terminology in something we are all dealing with when perusing this forum :) http://www.freshpatents.com/Ultrathin-chemically-grown-oxide-film-as-a-dopant-diffusion-barrier-in-semiconductor-devices-dt20060112ptan20060006495.php?type=description In any event, I think most of you understood what it was I was saying, which is the end purpose of saying anything at all. Next, I'm not so sure the odd splashing of the rail will be an impediment to a successful implementation of the system, like I said, a commercial version is out there and for the money asked, I would think it had better work. Now were the system to be immersed in sea water for any period of time, that could indeed pose a problem. However were the top rail to be under sea water for any significant period would imply that having your electric fence operable would most likely be the LEAST of your then 'current' (pun intended) problems :) heheh. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 12:33:07AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I think you're missing something. As I understand it, what happens is > > that a capacitance is built up between the hot wire and the ground > > wire. > > Capacitance doesn't "build up"; it's a property of conductors that are > located near each other, and is a constant that depends mainly on the > geometry of the arrangement. Neither does capacitance between those > wires make any difference - except to provide a small but constant leak, > since capacitors conduct pulsing or alternating current. > > > Two different scenarios are employed, first from wire to wire, > > and second from wire to ground. in my case the one I tried to > > describe was a set of two wires, one hot, one not so to speak :) which > > presented a complete circuit only when someone grabbed the rail and > > simultaneously came into contact with both wires at the same time. > > ONly when the circuit was thus closed would any current flow, > > That's right - but there's nothing that requires a human body as the > element that closes the circuit. Rain water will do just fine - and a > splash of sea water would be just the thing... at least if you want to > empty those batteries in a hurry. > > Pedro Samblich's carpet tacks spread on deck by Joshua Slocum were a > great solution for their time: they were cheap, used no energy, were > essentially unavoidable in the dark, and provided a loud alarm in case > of intrusion. :) That's a solution that meets a bunch of good criteria; > too bad it's not likely to be effective today. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11702|11683|2006-09-15 15:14:49|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|Perhaps its my browser but I got a "page does not exist" missive on that site. :( seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > A web site that has some piracy reports: > http://www.sail-world.com/Piracy/ > > The article "False Perceptions of Piracy in Asia" is a good read. > Jim > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2006 at 03:45:53AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > > > For my own purposes, I think I'll investigate the matter further. > Oh, > > > and for the fellow who inquired about possibly increasing the > ability > > > of the stern to resist small arms fire, I came across a report of > > > armed pirates off the coast of Venezuela coming up fast from > behind > > > and spraying the stern of the targeted vessel with gunfire > wounding > > > the wife in the leg and I think arm in the process, soo, its not > like > > > what you suggested has never happened. > > > > It's possible to claim anything at all - reports of flying bullets > > everywhere, "pirates ... coming up fast from behind", etc., but > unless > > you have an actual citation from a *reliable* source - say, a > Venezuelan > > newspaper in the latter case - it's just so much fear-mongering. > So, if > > you have an actual cite, or even a URL pointing to a reliable > resource, > > I'm sure that we'd all appreciate seeing it. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http:// > LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 11703|11683|2006-09-15 15:36:24|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 06:53:09AM -0000, jim_both wrote: > A web site that has some piracy reports: > http://www.sail-world.com/Piracy/ > > The article "False Perceptions of Piracy in Asia" is a good read. The only thing I get from the above URL is ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Unfortunately the web page you were trying to reach does not exist. Please check the web page address you entered, or try to navigate to this page from the home page at http://www.sail-world.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Searching the site for 'piracy' is a bit more useful, turning up such articles as the one above and "Yachts not Piracy target say Asian sailors". I quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ While international cruising sailors have sailed with some trepidation through the Malacca Straits between Indonesia and Malaysia for the last 20 years, the Asian Marine industry says Pirates have been targeting commercial shipping and that leisure vessels are in no danger. ... Captain Marty Rijkuris of www.AsianYachting.com comments; 'It is very disturbing that yachts or pleasure craft are included together with commercial shipping reports of piracy. It seems that valuable shipping cargoes or holding captains and officers for huge ransoms are bigger targets, as they provide better pickings for the pirates. I cannot recall any yachts being pirated in the last ten years or more, other than some stolen items missing from boats in port.' ... Still its clear not everyone is convinced. 'The American crusiing sailors are a little more paranoid and tend to travel in groups and choose to carry Canadian flags so as not to be identified from the US in predominately Muslim countries.' ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Right in line with what all the experienced cruisers here have said. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11704|11683|2006-09-15 16:04:55|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security- electric fence -capacitors|On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 07:00:04PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > For anyone that's 'really' interested in the subject, here's a > tutorial on capacitors. > > http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/caps/caps.html I'm not sure what the history of capacitors has to do with how they work, but I'm glad that it works for you. Wikipedia, by contrast, actually explains the latter, as well as showing the relevant formulae: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor > Now, as to semantics, , Using a term in a way that shows your ignorance of the subject is not "semantics" - although you're welcome to try and dismiss it as such. > tho it was many years ago, at the > institution where and when I studied engineering, math, plasma > physics, chemistry, and a host of other related and un-related > subjects [rolling eyes] All of the above would be much, much better for actual proof. In fact, the citation of reliable sources is _the_ primary hallmark of a scientist - and so far, not a single one of your claims has been so supported. If you had been careful to state them as opinions - again, another hallmark of a scientist - some of the above might have been believable, but as it is, all of the evidence points in the other direction. > , (not the least of which was the figure of the lithe brunette > who surprisingly seemed to be duplicating at least my scientific > curriculum at that time :) discussions of "building up a charge" or > "charging the capacitor" or even the dreaded phrase that seems to > trigger semantical righteous indignation and loathing in certain > alternative op system afficionados...to wit- "building up capacitance" > in a circuit were widely used terminologies No one who knows anything about electronics would use the latter as equivalent to the previous two. The only way to "build up capacitance" is by either changing the geometry of the structure - say, by material deposition - or by adjusting, say, a voltage-variable capacitor. Neither of these is related to building up a *charge*, which is presumably what you meant. > and as far as I know, in > fact continue to be used today by scientific types in all manner of > technical discussion and documentation. For example, here's a recent > patent application utilizing that terminology in something we are all > dealing with when perusing this forum :) > > http://www.freshpatents.com/Ultrathin-chemically-grown-oxide-film-as-a-dopant-diffusion-barrier-in-semiconductor-devices-dt20060112ptan20060006495.php?type=description ...used in exactly the way that I've just described - it's a voltage-variable capacitor formed by varying the dielectric constant of the substrate. Your claim of having studied physics is made all the more interesting by your demonstrated inability to read that patent application. You could, however, claim to know how to use a search engine. I'd be willing to believe that... but only to a degree. You've missed the fact that "building up capacitance" returns only *two* hits in a Google search - including the above URL - which says loudly and clearly that it is _not_ a common term. "Building up a charge", by contrast, returns almost twenty one *thousand* hits. But go ahead - keep claiming that they're equivalent if that makes you happy. > Next, I'm not so sure the odd splashing of the rail will be an > impediment to a successful implementation of the system, like I said, > a commercial version is out there and for the money asked, I would > think it had better work. That would be because a $15000 system is likely to be better designed than the $100 system you were recommending. If I were designing something of the sort, I can see a series of strategies I could use to deal with the problems that a boat-based system would encounter... but a design of that sort would definitely cost closer to $15k than to a C-note. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11705|11683|2006-09-15 18:26:47|woodcraftssuch|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > If you look at the page I cited, they describe a system to ward off > bears while you're sleeping in dangerous country. > In any event since the system I envision fooling with involves jumping > from insulated wire to insulated wire, and not to ocean ground, I'm > not sure I have a circuit problem in the water, tho some rise in the > potential of the hull might occur which again, bears (pun intended) > further investigation. I'll let you know what I find out. Again there > is a 15,000.00 euro yacht version of this thing available commercially > and for that amount of money, I'm thinking someone has sorted all this > out. > > seer A two wire system is what I have on the bird feeder. A 12v battery powered fencer capable of sending bears away can run for 2-4 months before being recharged. That is on a miles long multi wire fence, not the short amount it would take for a boat. The main problem to be sorted out would be insulation and leakage. How big a problem that would be to a boat, I don't know, but it is a pulsed current as opposed to a steady current, so maybe the total amount might be less compared to your average marine electrical leak. Maybe you might have to replace anodes, but if it kept thieves and evildoers (and bears) away, it's hard to put a price on that. A person might also be able to build an accessory for the fencer, where that fish under the boat that just sniffs at a baited hook might be electrically invited to supper. Sam > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > > > > > Sam, > > > > Yes a farm near here has a mains powered electric fence that I'm told > > doesn't get effected by shorting to earth through wet grass. I > > haven't tied it myself, the novelty of electric shocks has long gone. > > One could have a mains generator on board to give the system some > > zap. It could possibly make relieving oneself over the side of the > > boat a memorable experience. > > > > Regards, > > Ted I'd rather get it through the nose again, if I had a choice. Usually, shocks are accidental and you have no choice, but one time I did volunteer to hold the hot wire on an F20 Farmall tractor magneto, while someone spun it, to see if it still worked. That's past the point of being shocked and more like being hit with something. I would volunteer again, along with some other drunken people, to investigate the story that if a line of people hold hands and one grabs an electric fence, it's the last person on the line that gets the shock. What I envision is a bunch of drunken people making a lot of noise and commotion. Sam| 11706|11700|2006-09-15 19:42:53|tom|Re: "Big Girips" terminal eyes|Jon I have used the Guy Grip ends on dairy fences with 3/8" cable and I can say there just as strong as the cable itself, never seen one come loose. The only thing that might be a problem is I dont think the standard thimbles would fit, the loops on the Guy Grips are quite large. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonhackett44" To: Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] "Big Girips" terminal eyes > Has anyone tried Preformed Line Products "Big Grip" or "Guy Grip" > terminal eyes for their standing rigging? > I'm interested in any experiences y'all have had with this clever > alternative to swaged eyes. > If you're interested, here is the website for the Big Grips. > > http://preformed.com/content/ProductFamilyOverview.aspx? > Industry=5&Group=19&Category=0&Series=158&Family=420 > > P.S. > > Sorry I missed you at Lasqueti Brent!! > Jon > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 11707|11683|2006-09-15 19:45:50|jim_both|From Sail-World: "Shall we carry guns onboard"|A recent panel discussion led by The Triton News Magazine for Captains and Crew shows that one of the biggest issues on the participants' minds was `Shall we carry a gun on board?' The Triton is a US based weekly News Magazine that recently held a panel discussion on the issue of `piracy and security at sea'. However, Triton's Editor Lucy Chabot Reed reported that much of the discussion, which could have ranged from complying with the the International Ship and Port Security (ISPS) code to dealing with vendors of the security systems, centred around questions about the carriage of guns on board cruising vessels. Reed reported that, even though no flag state allows firearms onboard their megayachts, nearly everyone wanted to know if having one would keep pirates off their boats. 'If they are going to confiscate your weapons or arrest you, isn't it better to hide them?' 'What authority do they have to come after you if you kill someone?' Pirates The experts on the panel assembled at Bluewater Books & Charts in Ft. Lauderdale were cautious to offer answers, though, since weapons are illegal to carry on board yachts in most places. The conversation began in a general way, noting that there have been no recent piracy attacks on yachts in the areas they frequent most - the Caribbean, the Mediterranean, and along the U.S. coasts. 'It's all about risk assessment,' said Stephan Mort, vice president of maritime operations at Wright Maritime Group in Ft. Lauderdale . 'No flag says you can carry a weapon. If you are going to carry a gun, know the local laws where you are traveling. Weapons just add another risk to the situation.' Andy Carrie, who once worked on security issues with large tanker companies including Shell Oil, noted that few piracy events result in death. 'They're coming on for the ship's stores, for the electronics equipment,' he said. 'It's a business to them.' But a delivery captain who recently completed a trip through the Red Sea wanted to know more. 'It's nice to avoid these areas if you can, but sometimes you have to go through them,' he said. 'How do you deal with boardings?' 'There is no cast-in-concrete answer for that,' said Patrick Estebe, owner of a security consulting business called AffAirAction in Ft. Lauderdale . 'We have to think about security in a different way. It's not safety. Safety is to avoid the incident. In security, you're dealing with people's minds. You must act with alertness and purpose. Your security will rely on the same senses you use as a captain.' And he warned the audience not to underestimate pirates. 'They aren't stupid,' he said. 'They are excellent seafarers.' He did suggest keeping a low profile while in dangerous areas, minimizing chatter on the radio and turning off running lights. He did not recommend guns for everyone. 'If you are going to carry them, you have to be prepared to fire them,' he said. 'And if you are going to fire at one of the bad guys, you have to be prepared to finish what you started, because his son there on the boat with him will surely tell the police that his father was approaching the yacht for some food or some ropes. So if that son is a 16-year-old kid, are you prepared to reload and shoot him? There will be consequences for what you do.' Every country had a different law concerning weapons on yachts. In the United States , the law varies by state. 'More than anything, you want to stop them from boarding,' said Capt. Jake DesVergers, head of the U.S. Maritime Institute. 'Have crew make rounds, use your lights, keep a charged fire hose, and keep a vigilant watch.' One engineer in the audience noted that on the new builds he's worked on, owners and designers are finding creative ways to hide and disguise their weapons so that they can carry them and not declare them. Telling owners they don't need guns was naïve, he said. 'If you take someone's life, you are liable,' said Mort, who also is Wright Maritime's chief security officer. 'Unless they [guns] are written into your ship security plan and your crew has been trained to use them, your insurers probably aren't going to stand up next to you to support you. 'In most cases, robbers leave when the alarm is raised,' he said. 'If you provide a means of escape, the pirates will get out of there.' A representative of the Philippines Coast Guard was present in an unofficial capacity and noted that if his agency or government finds a weapon on a yacht, not only will it be confiscated but the person in charge will be prosecuted. He advised anyone transiting the Philippines to contact his agency on Channels 16 and 22. 'Keep a good radar watch,' he said. 'If we see you without your running lights, we'll think you're a local fisherman. I'm not suggesting you run without your lights. I am suggesting you establish a good relationship with us as you transit.' The Philippines Coast Guard - a uniformed civilian service - is one 10th the size of the U.S. Coast Guard (4,500 officers compared to 45,000) with 10 times the shoreline, he said. 'My advice is to use non-lethal force,' Mort said. 'Get training and know your security risk. Sound the ship security alert system, sound the EPIRB, use the UHF if you're being boarded.' 'If someone comes on board, what do you do?' Estebe said. 'Security is all about alertness and purpose. It's up to whatever you think you can do. There's no way anyone can overpower you if you know what you are doing, and if you don't panic. You can do so many things if only you remain centered. 'We're all conditioned for fear,' he said. 'I say, if the wolf comes, eat him alive.' To read all the current articles in The Triton, go to their excellent website at http://www.the-triton.com , where you can choose to subscribe. Contact Editor Lucy Chabot Reed at lucy@... . Editor's comment: The Triton is a Fort Lauderdale, USA, based website. The concern and the opinions of the participants of the above discussion panel are intensely interesting, and one cannot help empathising with their fear of pirate attack. However, in our modest long range cruising experience, we have not met cruisers of any other nationality who even contemplate the carriage of weapons on board. In almost all countries they are illegal and confiscated if declared (which defeats the purpose), and one then must return to the same port to collect them on departure, which is usually inconvenient to say the least. If they are not declared and discovered, one runs the risk of extremely heavy punishment including jail sentences.| 11708|11683|2006-09-15 19:47:25|jim_both|From Sail-World: False Perceptions of Piracy in Asia|Issues affecting cruising yachtsmen in Southeast Asia are of concern to quasi-government groups in the region, and this has led to the formation of Sail Indonesia, under whose auspices the present Darwin- Kupang-Flores-Komodo-Bali-Makassar-Kalimantan Rally is organised, leading on to Sail Malaysia, including the popular island-hopping Port Klang-Pangkor-Penang-Langkawi Raja Muda Regatta, and then to the King's Cup in Phuket, Thailand, in early December. One of these issues, 'False Perceptions of Piracy', was the subject of an address by long-time Asia-Pacific yachting magazine editor and publisher Bruce Maxwell, at an Asean Marine Tourism Forum called 'Yangon to Manila Bay' held in Kuala Lumpur in May, 2005. The text is reported below. Google the words 'Piracy Pleasure Boats Asia' and an astonishing 15,000 references come up on the computer screen, many of them quite recent entries. Yet there have been hardly any cases of piracy involving pleasure boats in Asia for the last decade or two. Herein lies the problem. The world has an almost totally false impression that it isn't safe for pleasure boats to sail or motor through the prime passages of Asia's exotic seas and straits, and the region is losing millions of dollars, perhaps even billions, as wealthy marine tourists are at least partly discouraged from coming. Because there are very few real robberies on pleasure boats in Asia these days, let alone physical attacks on people aboard them, I would like to begin by giving a closely related example of how this perception process works abroad. Think back to the haze problems that affected Singapore and the southern part of peninsula Malaysia in the late 1990s. The haze was caused by farming burn-offs, particularly in Sumatra, and it attracted widespread adverse publicity. In 1997, when the haze was at its height, I was helping the former chief of the Royal Malaysian Navy, Tan Sri Abdul Wahab Nawi, organize Asia's first superyacht gathering at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace show, also known by its acronym LIMA. About 15 big boats eventually turned up, mostly belonging to savvy Asian owners such as the Sultan of Brunei, but a number of others from Europe, which had booked and paid deposits, cancelled at the last moment. I told their agent, Nigel Burgess of London, that Langkawi on the Malaysia-Thailand border was far removed from the haze-affected areas further south, and that cruising in pristine waters of the Andaman Sea between Langkawi and Phuket was perfectly clear. 'It doesn't matter', the agency's Jonathan Beckett said. 'There is a perception among owners and their guests that the whole region is covered by haze, and they won't come'. I had myself seen front page pictures in the International Herald Tribune in France showing people wearing gas masks, with a general story about 'haze enveloping Southeast Asia', so it wasn't hard to see what Jonathan meant, but equally, it was very frustrating, and an enormous loss to the local economy. One superyacht worth say US$30 million spends a tenth of its value every year in running costs, and that money, earmarked for this region, would now go somewhere else. Multiply this by at least 15-20 similarly-sized vessels that increasingly come through today, and add an estimated 1,500 private pleasure boats of various lengths that normally roam Asia's seas and straits, and the disastrous effect of the negative and generalized haze publicity becomes starkly evident. The perception of piracy in Asia, in this submission, has exactly the same effect as the perception of haze. The idea gets around that security is a serious issue, and marine tourists affluent enough to have their own vessels tend to stay away from perceived 'trouble'. Any travel agent will tell you that the American market, in which only 14 per cent of people actually have passports, is especially susceptible. A minor coup attempt in Manila, reported in the New York Times, can and does cause American tourism to the Philippines archipelago, a former US protectorate, to drop off drastically for perhaps a year or two. In recent months I have been based on the Gold Coast in Australia, and attached here some cuttings, reported in the national newspaper The Australian and the Gold Coast Bulletin, about piracy in Asia in the last eight weeks alone. The headlines read 'Tanker Crew In Dire Straits', 'Pirates Seize Tanker', 'Pirates Take Over Tugboat' and 'Piracy Deaths Up'. In every case the source of these reports is the relatively new Piracy Reporting Centre of the International Maritime Bureau based in Malaysia, and twice the dateline is given as Kuala Lumpur, thus identifying the city with the headline and content of the story. The 'Piracy Deaths Up' account tells us that, and I quote, 'the number of seafarers killed by pirates surged last year, although armed robbery at sea fell, an international watchdog said in its annual report due out today. Thirty mariners were killed, mainly off Nigeria and in the Malacca Strait separating Indonesia from Malaysia, the Piracy Reporting Centre of the International Maritime Bureau said'. You will notice that there is absolutely no distinction in this story about piracy attacks on commercial shipping, which do continue to occur but within a well-documented range of circumstances and geographic areas, and piracy attacks on pleasure craft, which in Asia are virtually non-existent now. So a vessel owner based in say the Americas or Europe, where such reports are circulated by international news agencies – as well as to Australian and New Zealand and East Asia print and electronic media – would be perfectly justified in thinking that private vessels are coming under heavy attack, and that loved ones and friends could be at considerable risk if venturing into such unsettled waters. I'm also not too sure, incidentally, about the accuracy of the report itself, as it applies, presumably, to commercial shipping. If, and I quote again, 'thirty mariners were killed, mainly off Nigeria and in the Malacca Strait separating Indonesia from Malaysia' last year, I don't recall hearing about Malacca Strait casualties of anywhere near this order. Knowing the subject was coming up at this symposium, last month I asked my fellow speaker, Captain Pottengal Mukundan of the Piracy Reporting Centre, whether he would be kind enough to let me know of any cases involving pleasure craft – sail or power – that had come to his attention. He instanced only one, involving the yacht Okla, from which probably land-based thieves stole some cash and personal belongings when it was at a Thai island on 19 February 2004. There have, of course, been very substantially more robberies ashore, in all countries, in the same interim period. He commented further: 'There were ten attacks against yachts reported to us in 2004. Most were off Somalia, or in South America or the Caribbean'. Other isolated cases crop up. Earlier this year, for example, somebody pinched a yacht in Melbourne and sailed it to Tasmania's north coast, chased amusingly by the owner in a light plane when he realized straight away his vessel was missing from its marina berth. He got it back in good shape. But with respect, these shenanigans and petty theft cases simply do not justify the emotive headlines about 'piracy', and the damage that causes. Personal experience also suggests that piracy against pleasure craft in Asia is decidedly on the wane. I have lived in East Asia and Southeast Asia since 1970, run boating magazines such as Asian Boating, Asia-Pacific Boating and Yachts Asia-Pacific in Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur since 1976, sailed across the South China Sea 98 times, took part in the inaugural mid-1980s Phuket-Pangkor races organized by another speaker here, Vincent Tabuteau, and helped start the King's Cup Regatta in Thailand in 1987 and the annual island- hopping Raja Muda Regatta in Malaysia, which has been running since 1990. For five years I ran the China Sea Game Fishing Tournament at Taiwan- garrisoned Pratas Reef or Dong Sha, and I have spent other sojourns at Scarborough Reef in the northern part of the mysterious Spratlys, claimed variously by China, Taiwan, the Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia and Vietnam, where a lot of nefarious-looking seafaring characters turn up. Add the Darwin-Ambon Race and many other events in the Indonesian and Philippines archipelagos, and I think I can claim to be reasonably experienced in these waters. Nowhere have I, nor any of my hundreds of friends who skipper all sorts of boats around here, and with whom I have re-checked immediately before this symposium, heard of a really serious pirate attack on a pleasure craft in the last 15 years. Piracy has indeed existed, involving pleasure craft in Asia, and I well remember covering stories in the 70s and 80s about husband-and- wife cruising yachts being boarded going into Manila Bay, and attacks off Vietnam for nearly ten years after Saigon became Ho Chi Minh City in 1975, and to this day I would avoid parts of the northern Papua New Guinea coast and some tiny pockets like waters off NW Borneo, and the southern end of the Sulu Sea, between Mindanao and the NE tip of Sabah, where frankly piracy in its various forms has been the norm for centuries, and where there is also much political and religious unrest. But this remaining 'activity' is so relatively small and so localized. I am quite happy for example going into nearby Sutera Harbour at Kota Kinabalu, also in Sabah, which has superb facilities for anything from superyachts down, and their Magellan Suites ashore are on a par with the ultra-up market Aman marine tourist resorts, such as Amanpuri in Phuket, Amanpulo in the northern part of the Sulu Sea, and Amanwana in Bali. Or The Datai or Four Seasons in Langkawi, or the E&O or Mutiara in Penang, or Pangkor Laut Resort. These establishments and their facilities are a core key to the future of high-end marine tourism in Asia, and the last thing we need to do is frighten off potential visitors and their vessels with generalized scare stories about piracy. So how best to tackle this very real problem of a perception of piracy against pleasure craft in Asia? Our friends in the Piracy Reporting Centre undoubtedly have a valuable role to play in tracking piracy against commercial shipping and identifying ways to eliminate this scourge. But as far as pleasure craft are concerned, the real danger spots in the world today are the Gulf of Aden, between Somalia and Yemen in the approaches to the Red Sea, and in the Caribbean, where private boats are regularly targeted for one-off drug and refugee runs. We need to make it clearer that Asia is relatively free of such attacks. To do so, I believe some fundamental changes have to take place in the way incidents are made public by the Piracy Reporting Centre. What seems to be happening at present is that every month or so, or more frequently if a specific case of piracy against commercial shipping is considered newsworthy, international news agencies like AP, AFP and Reuters, plus newspaper reps, TV and radio stations, approach the Piracy Reporting Centre for a press conference or briefing, and this is what leads to the barrage of Kuala Lumpur- datelined stories we have had about pirates. These in turn appear in large-circulation papers and other mass media in Europe, the Americas and the Asia-Pacific area. With respect, it would be beneficial if this PRC enthusiasm was perhaps tempered by recognition of the damage such news releases are doing in putting forward a false perception of piracy. I'm not suggesting, as a long-time writer and editor myself, that genuine news should be suppressed, but rather that the Piracy Reporting Centre could and should be a little more circumspect in the number of conferences and briefings it holds, and that on every occasion it must emphasize that Asia-Pacific waters are in fact fairly safe for pleasure craft of all types. This will hopefully lead to more balanced reporting worldwide. Effectively tackling the root problem – attacks against commercial shipping in the Malacca and Singapore Straits – would of course be the ultimate achievement, and I note Captain Pottengal Mukundan in his email to me says that 'without being alarmist, we feel it is important to be aware of what is happening, and to put pressure upon law enforcement agencies, particularly in Indonesia, to continue to maintain an effective presence and deterrent in these waters'. Unquote. The modus operandi of many of these attacks, and the simple logistic requirements of the so-called pirate vessels in boarding commercial ships and effecting a safe getaway, make it somewhat obvious who, how, why, when and where these acts are taking place. I understand what has euphemistically been termed 'intra-Asian diplomacy', or quietly paying the pirates not to do it, has been tried in recent years, and this has met with partial success, but more clearly needs to be done. If the immense damage that the false perception of piracy creates for marine tourism, in the countries concerned, is seen in its true economic light, perhaps that, or the further threat of a possibly aligned terrorist incident, will act as a spur in convincing governments to stamp out this menace to commercial shipping once and for all. Finally as a footnote, for those of you who are interested in the rather colourful history of piracy in the region in centuries past, there are many accounts of the contentious Chinese hero Coxinga at the time of the invasion of China by the Manchus and the collapse of the Ming Dynasty, in the 17th century. Coxinga at one stage commanded a fleet of 3,000 ships and some of his biographers describe him as turning to piracy before ousting the Dutch from Taiwan. It was doubtless the clash between ships of the seafaring colonial powers – many captained by men who themselves could perhaps best be described as 'licensed pirates' – and the fleets of the Asian Rajahs and Sultans, that led to bloodthirsty stories of so-called piracy in Asia. The Kingdoms of Sulu and Brunei were particularly powerful, and the Illanuns and Balanini of the southern Philippines were very fierce and roamed great distances in their war canoes, as did the Bugis traders, predecessors for example of Malaysia's own present-day seafaring Sultan of Selangor, who conversely is a member of the London-based Royal Ocean Racing Club. One of the most interesting books I've read on the subject is Owen Rutter's The Pirate Wind, published by Oxford in Asia Paperbacks. 'Two hundred years ago piracy was rampant in the Malay archipelago', it says in a forward, 'particularly off the coast of Borneo, and no merchant ship of the colonial nations – from Manila to Malacca, from the Celebes to Singapore and Sumatra – was safe from sea-robbers, and no coastal village was immune from the attacks which, in their ferocity, made the buccaneers of the Spanish Main seem comparative gentlemen. The last pirates' stronghold was not destroyed until 1879'. 'What was it that caused people to revert from peace to piracy?' he asks. 'Looking at it through their eyes, one may see it as guerilla warfare against those interlopers from the West who had destroyed the traditional trade of the area, and had become high-handed and greedy'. It seems that today, as then, a more widespread understanding of the causes of piracy, of any sort, and a determination to do something really practical about it, is how both commercial shipping and pleasure boaters will get back onto a much more even keel.| 11709|11683|2006-09-15 20:32:12|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: From Sail-World: "Shall we carry guns onboard"|On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 11:36:04PM -0000, jim_both wrote: > A recent panel discussion led by The Triton News Magazine for > Captains and Crew shows that one of the biggest issues on the > participants' minds was `Shall we carry a gun on board?' [ snip ] > 'If someone comes on board, what do you do?' Estebe said. 'Security > is all about alertness and purpose. It's up to whatever you think you > can do. There's no way anyone can overpower you if you know what you > are doing, and if you don't panic. You can do so many things if only > you remain centered. Excellent, well-balanced material, Jim; thank you for forwarding it. Incidentally, in reviewing the piracy reports that I've been able to find - pretty much all of them involving freighters, etc. - the most successful outcome is almost invariably similar to this: "...attempted to board the vessel. An alert crew triggered the alarm, at which time the attackers abandoned their attempt and left." Seems that Estebe is right: alertness and purpose do carry the day. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11710|11710|2006-09-15 22:09:38|seeratlas|Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|Had a conversation with a formally naval type friend last night who observed that there are numerous "flare guns" on the market that could be easily modified to safely fire 12 gauge shells. He thought it unlikely that such a std piece of yacht equipment would draw any attention from any port authorities. He also reminded me of the 'bangstick' option as well as the improvised cannon scenario for those who have propane or lng on board. Brent has previously mentioned the std. speargun which would be expected to be present on pretty much any boat cruising in waters warm enough to swim in, and there is a huge variety of those ranging from almost pistol sized pneumatic units, to the larger sling types. I would think the recoil from a 12 in a pistol would be something more than trivial, but probably manageable for most men. I have a pistol grip marinized Mossberg 500 12 I carry in bear country and it shouldn't be much worse than that. Also, aside from ammunition, just the prospect of getting burnt with the flare itself would likely be a considerable deterrent to the casual interloper. I also did a bit of looking at stun guns and taser type equipment. Not all that expensive and pretty effective. The range of the taser is now up 30'. I enjoyed the two articles also, but I did notice that one of the participants involved in new construction admitted that a lot of effort was being expended in designing in security considerations and places to conceal security related items. Especially for one sophisticated enough in metal working to build his own boat, I'm thinking it wouldn't be too much trouble to create a number of security 'items' whose location and appearance did not reveal their purposes. The son of the designer of my last boat was a metal worker who made me a present upon delivery of a seemingly ornamental cannon. Once we were clear of coastal waters he demonstrated what it could actually do. Then again, that was during the height of the offshore mothership drug trafficing that coincided with a number of sailing yachts disappearing with all hands and without a trace and just prior to us making an offshore trek from Vancouver to Newport Beach, and no I have not yet ever fired the thing at anyone, tho I did use it to salute a naval ship once in calmer days :) hehehe. Now Ben, you seem to have embarked on a crusade here LOL, and if that is what you want to do, then by all means have at it. Its a free country:) If you're trying to get my goat, however, I should probably let you know that you are laboring under an incorrect assumption, i.e. that I could care less about anything you have to say lol. The opinions of cherry intel weenies hold remarkably little interest for me when discussing the politics of the day: far less when the subject is real world violence. For the rest of the group, I did indeed study engineering and the other disciplines I listed and a few more. My father was the chief ground systems engineer for the Titan ICBM, in fact, he's the guy they brought in to turn the failing program around and make it fly. Well, he decided that if I did nothing else on earth he was bound and determined I would take at least one degree in the sciences, and well, he was bigger than me :) As for the 'need' to instruct me in Latin, well..... one of my universities' commencement address is by tradition conducted in that language and it *used* to be in my time, (dunno bout currently) a required study, that and classical greek. In any event, accordingly I have some passing familiarity with it as well as a consequence of several professions in which I have engaged. I find it of little practical day to day use, however. I have found that much like when confronted with a surgeon who in a mixxed crowd reverts to highly technical (tho admittedly accurate) descriptions such as myocardial infarction (could we just say heart attack) or even 'lateral recumbency' (laying on your side) etc., one must question whether his purpose is to truely communicate or just 'wow' the crowd with his linguistic acumen. So, if anyone didn't "get my drift" over the rough description of how the electric fence thing works, then I apologize, but I suspect you all pretty much 'got' the import of what I was trying to convey. Seer| 11711|11710|2006-09-15 23:24:00|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 01:59:12AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Now Ben, you seem to have embarked on a crusade here LOL, and if that > is what you want to do, then by all means have at it. Its a free > country:) Actually, I couldn't care less about what you think (and I use that term with strong reservations.) However, someone else might mistake your posturing for something resembling the truth - and I'd rather people didn't get killed or arrested due to your ideas. Which, according to a clear statement from the authorities quoted in the referenced articles, is exactly what would happen. However, I expect that you'll pretend that it never happened and go right on with your pronouncements from on high. Quite the legend in your own mind, aren't you? > For the rest of the group, I did indeed study engineering and the > other disciplines I listed and a few more. Your inability to understand even the most basic technological description, a complete lack of proof for even a single one of your claims, and your repeatedly-demonstrated ignorance of a wide range of subjects fail to support that statement in a most spectacular manner. But do keep on trying; watching you provides some amusing moments. Just don't expect me _not_ to puncture your puffed-up self-image once in a while. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11712|11712|2006-09-16 08:07:44|sae140|So you think you know about electricity ... ?|A bit off topic - but check out Ivor Catt's site: http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ The Catt Anomaly took years to be begrudgingly accepted by the establishment, which flies in the face of our 'knowledge' of electrical theory. Re: Electric fences on boats ... Nahhh - you've got it all wrong. The way to proceed is to leave a boarding ladder down, to actually encourage that mode of entry. Now that's where the creativity begins .... rungs which collapse perhaps ? or s/s steps with insulated ends and a pressure switch to enable an EHT pulse ? or maybe an exploding step ? or even a concealed anti-personnel land-mine ? or how about releasing spring coils of razor wire ? Wot - I'm not taking this issue seriously ? No I'm not. Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another day. Colin| 11713|11712|2006-09-16 10:53:46|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Sorry, just not my style. seer > > Wot - I'm not taking this issue seriously ? No I'm not. > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another > day. > > Colin > | 11714|11710|2006-09-16 11:53:00|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|I can just picture the news report now of how all the luckless pirates lined up and single filed down the hatchway while you 'flash" each in turn. After which you offered them all a drink, some smokes, and a lecture (maybe in latin?) on conflict avoidance thru smiles, handshakes and good conversation presumably along the lines of 'please don't hurt me, take anything you want". As I mentioned, sorry, but not my style. I tend to plan for the worst in people, and in nature, and have found that tho at times I may get pleasantly surprised by some exceeding expectations, I am never disappointed, and my safety compromised thereby. It is not my nature to call for help, or expect others to come to my aid if I endanger myself by doing something, well , ill advised, tho I have spent a lifetime getting paid quite well for doing just that for others in a number of roughly related fields, these 'others' being not just persons, but corporations, other institutions, and even a few governments along the way. I've always taken a few precautions, and my last boat will offer some opportunities to design in a few more, which is what i've been discussing. As for those who have been reading these posts, they will of course reach their own conclusions on what they feel capable of doing under extreme circumstances and what preparations are therefore necessary to reach their own 'comfort zones' on these issues; and, that is as it should be. I think the reason most men go sailing is to at least for a while, be masters of their own destinies. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 01:59:12AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > Now Ben, you seem to have embarked on a crusade here LOL, and if that > > is what you want to do, then by all means have at it. Its a free > > country:) > > Actually, I couldn't care less about what you think (and I use that term > with strong reservations.) However, someone else might mistake your > posturing for something resembling the truth - and I'd rather people > didn't get killed or arrested due to your ideas. Which, according to a > clear statement from the authorities quoted in the referenced articles, > is exactly what would happen. > > However, I expect that you'll pretend that it never happened and go > right on with your pronouncements from on high. Quite the legend in your > own mind, aren't you? > > > For the rest of the group, I did indeed study engineering and the > > other disciplines I listed and a few more. > > Your inability to understand even the most basic technological > description, a complete lack of proof for even a single one of your > claims, and your repeatedly-demonstrated ignorance of a wide range of > subjects fail to support that statement in a most spectacular manner. > But do keep on trying; watching you provides some amusing moments. Just > don't expect me _not_ to puncture your puffed-up self-image once in a > while. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11715|11712|2006-09-16 12:02:17|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 11:56:17AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > A bit off topic - but check out Ivor Catt's site: > http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ > > The Catt Anomaly took years to be begrudgingly accepted > by the establishment, which flies in the face of our > 'knowledge' of electrical theory. Well... there are a number of descriptive models for how current moves in a wire. The one that Catt proposes to counter, the "tennis balls in a pipe" model, is nothing more than a useful metaphor; actually describing the outer electron orbits, valence level overlap and delocalization, etc., would make most EEs eyes glaze. :) He does bring up some interesting edge cases in electrical theory - but many of these are dealt with daily in high-frequency electronic design (e.g., millimeter-wave work, the kind of thing I used to do [1] at Hughes Aircraft (EDD) in California.) That stuff tends to be more pure physics than electronics - at one point, I recall my boss writing a note on the whiteboard for a new engineer who attempted to connect an HF signal between two points with a piece of wire: "400MHZ IS _NOT_ DC!!!" :) [1] "do" is slightly misleading; I used to design the electronics around the HF stuff, and bolt up the waveguides and the IMPATT/Gunn diodes the way the HF engineers told me I should. I.e., I know my way up to about 400MHz; past that, I call a friend. :) > Re: Electric fences on boats ... > > Nahhh - you've got it all wrong. The way to proceed is > to leave a boarding ladder down, to actually encourage > that mode of entry. Now that's where the creativity > begins .... rungs which collapse perhaps ? or s/s steps > with insulated ends and a pressure switch to enable an > EHT pulse ? or maybe an exploding step ? or even a > concealed anti-personnel land-mine ? or how about > releasing spring coils of razor wire ? No, no - what you _really_ need is a trip-released cage full of hungry attack weasels on crack. They're *so* mediagenic! > Wot - I'm not taking this issue seriously ? No I'm not. > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another > day. I'd prefer to prevent the scenario where this is necessary - it implies that you're in a *very* bad position - but I wouldn't hesitate to do exactly that if the situation called for it. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11716|11710|2006-09-16 12:14:38|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 03:41:44PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > I can just picture the news report now of how all the luckless pirates > lined up and single filed down the hatchway while you 'flash" each in > turn. After which you offered them all a drink, some smokes, and a > lecture (maybe in latin?) on conflict avoidance thru smiles, > handshakes and good conversation presumably along the lines of 'please > don't hurt me, take anything you want". [laugh] You have now demonstrated your ignorance of yet another field that you're nevertheless willing to babble about. I suppose cops and firemen were taught conflict avoidance and deescalation because it's so passive and useless. > As I mentioned, sorry, but not my style. Thinking rationally and reacting proportionally? No, it's clearly not - although you appear to have confused "style" and "ability". > I tend to plan for the worst > in people, and in nature, and have found that tho at times I may get > pleasantly surprised by some exceeding expectations, I am never > disappointed, and my safety compromised thereby. And meanwhile, you live in a world of paranoia peopled by murderers and thieves. I suggest getting some serious treatment before it's too late. http://www.nami.org/ > It is not my nature > to call for help, or expect others to come to my aid if I endanger > myself by doing something, well , ill advised, tho I have spent a > lifetime getting paid quite well for doing just that for others in a > number of roughly related fields, these 'others' being not just > persons, but corporations, other institutions, and even a few > governments along the way. See my suggestion, above. Delusions are a common feature of paranoia. > I think the reason most men go sailing is to > at least for a while, be masters of their own destinies. That's not going to happen in a world where pirates hide behind every bush and you need to stay awake 24 hours a day, teeth chattering in constant terror, while manning your machine gun. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11717|11712|2006-09-16 12:50:04|srankin|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Seer I suspect that's an area you aren't overly endowed in! Steve On Sat, 2006-16-09 at 14:42 +0000, seeratlas wrote: > Sorry, just not my style. > seer > > > > Wot - I'm not taking this issue seriously ? No I'm not. > > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another > > day. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > | 11718|11683|2006-09-16 13:43:39|Alex Christie|Re: Boat Security- electric fence|That website uses frames. It seems you have to click on http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/ then hit the "Piracy" button at the top to get into that section. Alex On 15-Sep-06, at 12:04 PM, seeratlas wrote: > Perhaps its my browser but I got a "page does not exist" missive on > that site. :( > seer > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > > > > A web site that has some piracy reports: > > http://www.sail-world.com/Piracy/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11719|11719|2006-09-16 17:42:54|edward_stoneuk|Beds and matresses for boats|We've just bought some some slatted bed bases from IKEA (www.ikea.com) for our boat. They are made of laminated birch ply slightly curved so they spring as one lies on them are about 3" wide and spaced about 6" or so apart. The idea is that they will be a comfy bed and allow good ventilation for the matress. IKEA sell both polyurethane and latex foam mattresses. What do you folks use or prefer, bearing in mind the damp salty atmosphere of a boat? Regards, Ted| 11720|11719|2006-09-16 18:50:56|brentswain38|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|I always had back problems until I switched to carpet on two layers of half inch foam rug liner . No problems since . A friend with similar back problems had the same experience. It can be found free or almost free. my very high teck bloack nmeoprene three inch foam was a pain in the back.Don't know why I put up with it so long. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > We've just bought some some slatted bed bases from IKEA (www.ikea.com) > for our boat. They are made of laminated birch ply slightly curved so > they spring as one lies on them are about 3" wide and spaced about 6" > or so apart. The idea is that they will be a comfy bed and allow good > ventilation for the matress. IKEA sell both polyurethane and latex > foam mattresses. What do you folks use or prefer, bearing in mind the > damp salty atmosphere of a boat? > Regards, > Ted > | 11721|11710|2006-09-16 19:20:08|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|rflmao seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 03:41:44PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > > > > I can just picture the news report now of how all the luckless pirates > > lined up and single filed down the hatchway while you 'flash" each in > > turn. After which you offered them all a drink, some smokes, and a > > lecture (maybe in latin?) on conflict avoidance thru smiles, > > handshakes and good conversation presumably along the lines of 'please > > don't hurt me, take anything you want". > > [laugh] You have now demonstrated your ignorance of yet another field > that you're nevertheless willing to babble about. I suppose cops and > firemen were taught conflict avoidance and deescalation because it's so > passive and useless. > > > As I mentioned, sorry, but not my style. > > Thinking rationally and reacting proportionally? No, it's clearly not - > although you appear to have confused "style" and "ability". > > > I tend to plan for the worst > > in people, and in nature, and have found that tho at times I may get > > pleasantly surprised by some exceeding expectations, I am never > > disappointed, and my safety compromised thereby. > > And meanwhile, you live in a world of paranoia peopled by murderers and > thieves. I suggest getting some serious treatment before it's too late. > > http://www.nami.org/ > > > It is not my nature > > to call for help, or expect others to come to my aid if I endanger > > myself by doing something, well , ill advised, tho I have spent a > > lifetime getting paid quite well for doing just that for others in a > > number of roughly related fields, these 'others' being not just > > persons, but corporations, other institutions, and even a few > > governments along the way. > > See my suggestion, above. Delusions are a common feature of paranoia. > > > I think the reason most men go sailing is to > > at least for a while, be masters of their own destinies. > > That's not going to happen in a world where pirates hide behind every > bush and you need to stay awake 24 hours a day, teeth chattering in > constant terror, while manning your machine gun. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11722|11712|2006-09-16 19:23:02|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Not sure I understand you Colin, do you mean not overly endowed in cash? Well I suppose not compared to some :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, srankin wrote: > > Seer > I suspect that's an area you aren't overly endowed in! > > Steve > > On Sat, 2006-16-09 at 14:42 +0000, seeratlas wrote: > > Sorry, just not my style. > > seer > > > > > > Wot - I'm not taking this issue seriously ? No I'm not. > > > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another > > > day. > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11723|11719|2006-09-16 19:40:10|seeratlas|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|I think the slats are a good move. But for mattresses, I think you're going to have to look over a number of pads to figure out what works for YOU. While I like a kind of mushy pad, lots of peeps like things a bit more firm. Closed cell is definitely the way to go tho. Brent's suggestion on settee cushions applies equally here. Getting whatever pad you get sealed up in naugh is a real good idea, then use some kind of washable liner over that so you don't sweat, and its easy to keep "fresh" for the other half of the population. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > We've just bought some some slatted bed bases from IKEA (www.ikea.com) > for our boat. They are made of laminated birch ply slightly curved so > they spring as one lies on them are about 3" wide and spaced about 6" > or so apart. The idea is that they will be a comfy bed and allow good > ventilation for the matress. IKEA sell both polyurethane and latex > foam mattresses. What do you folks use or prefer, bearing in mind the > damp salty atmosphere of a boat? > Regards, > Ted > | 11724|11724|2006-09-17 00:28:12|Marcel Demers|That's it|Well guys my 36' Brent Swain is going from the mountains to the water.... On the 26th a flat bed and a crane will disturb the deers, bears and 'coons.. the neighbors will wonder why they don't ear the grinder on that day. ''Sea Belle'' will be going to St-Paul l'Ile aux Noix on the Richelieu river and we'll be heading in october in the Bahamas via Lac Champlain ,the Hudson and the Intra Costal Waterway....It feels kind of weard to enter the boat with non construction clothes and no tools, instead bringning on board all kind of stuff just to take it out later because of space restriction and keep saying to the wife '' NO WE CAN'T FIT THE OLE HOUSE IN THE BOAT'' and '' YES DEAR WE DO NEED ALL THESE TOOLS'' I am just finishing the ''most'' of the rest of things I have to do before we leave, are we ready? Of course not ..... but we wait to be ...we'll never leave so I'll be signing off soon and............. ''Bon vent a tous''| 11725|11719|2006-09-17 03:24:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|Hi Brent, Was the neoprene closed cell? Was it too sqidgy or too sweaty? Regards, Ted| 11726|11712|2006-09-17 06:16:50|sae140|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Not sure I understand you Colin, do you mean not overly endowed in > cash? Well I suppose not compared to some :) Hi Seer - not my words (try Steve ). > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another day. > Colin > Sorry, just not my style. > seer So it would appear ... What I've noticed with dismay thoughout so many recent posts on boat security is that the North American (admittedly, that's my regional assumption) responses invariably seem tilted towards an aggressive solution. Unless you have a fast and heavily armoured vessel, with the necessary crew to man the various Howitzers on board, complete with state of the art radar manned 24/7, then you really don't stand much of a chance against those who possess the element of surprise in terms of both the timing and location of their attack, and of the choice of weapons they *may* be intending to deploy. A cruising sailboat can never be adequately equipped to deal with an armed attack - it just ain't possible. So I would suggest the development of an alternative mindset. An armed attack is an aggressive act, and to meet this with an equally aggressive response is a recipe for an explosion of conflict and probable loss of life. One of the biggest mistakes in an armed attack scenario is in considering the intended intruder as an object to be dealt with, rather than viewing him/her as a person, specifically a person under stress from fear. A person about to aggressively attack or board a vessel will have their adrenaline pumping hard, and will be expecting some form of retaliation - fear always being the primary reason for carrying weapons ! (hunting & pest control excluded) There is a great story in Zen philosophy (I'll dig out the script if asked) about the armed thief who enters the house of someone having few possessions. Despite the intrusion the householder offers the thief his modest hospitality (cup of tea or somesuch). The thief is completely phased by this response as he even has his sword drawn ready for a fight. Indeed, this response is so unexpected that the thief drops his sword in surprise. The householder duly picks up the sword and offers it back to the thief, who runs off in a state of perplexed confusion. "That wasn't supposed to happen". Later the thief is so troubled by what happened that he returns to offer money in compensation (rather than steal it) and to ask forgiveness. Ok - so that didactic story is 100% idealistic - but has the important learning point that thieves have a pre-determined plan in mind when 'on a caper' and are usually not good at dealing with anything which does not fall within their range of expectations. Unusual and abrupt alarms fall into this category, but so too does the response of the potential victim. It may not be very macho to greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a smile, and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just might save your life. There are other considerations I think worthy of mention. Why does a person want to steal, and why from a boat ? The professional pirate is after much bigger game than your small yacht, so that leaves the desperate amateur - perhaps poor by endemic poverty, or from drug addiction. The poor arguably have a good case for receiving alms, and the drug-addict will undoubtedly be exercising poor judgement at the other end of a gun. So give 'em the money ... But why steal from boats ? An easy touch - perhaps ? My guess is that cruising sailboats have become icons - they epitomise the leasurely wealth of the first world, which is now being flaunted into the faces of the empoverished third world and are thus seen as legitimate (from their viewpoint) targets as sources of cash, and of valuable and attractive items which can be removed and turned into cash. If you don't have such items on board - or if as much as possible is well secured, even welded in place if possible - then you might just get away with offering a handful of cash, backed up with a smile and shrug of the shoulders. You may have noticed that the First World doesn't have a piracy problem (unless you count harbour-masters and tax collectors) - and there is a reason for this. It ain't a fair world out there, being comprised of the have's and have-not's. The cruising sailboat represents wealth - regardless of whether you really are wealthy or not by the standards of your home country. Human behaviour which can so easily be dismissed as 'criminal' usually has it's own underpinning logic - if you are willing to take time out to unravel it. Colin| 11727|11719|2006-09-17 07:50:51|Courtney Thomas|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'foam rug liner' ? Thanks, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 6:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Beds and matresses for boats > I always had back problems until I switched to carpet on two layers of > half inch foam rug liner . No problems since . A friend with similar > back problems had the same experience. It can be found free or almost > free. my very high teck bloack nmeoprene three inch foam was a pain in > the back.Don't know why I put up with it so long. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > We've just bought some some slatted bed bases from IKEA > (www.ikea.com) > > for our boat. They are made of laminated birch ply slightly curved > so > > they spring as one lies on them are about 3" wide and spaced about 6" > > or so apart. The idea is that they will be a comfy bed and allow > good > > ventilation for the matress. IKEA sell both polyurethane and latex > > foam mattresses. What do you folks use or prefer, bearing in mind > the > > damp salty atmosphere of a boat? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 11728|11724|2006-09-17 09:03:13|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: That's it|On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 04:24:09AM -0000, Marcel Demers wrote: > Well guys my 36' Brent Swain is going from the mountains to the > water.... > On the 26th a flat bed and a crane will disturb the deers, bears > and 'coons.. the neighbors will wonder why they don't ear the grinder > on that day. > ''Sea Belle'' will be going to St-Paul l'Ile aux Noix on the Richelieu > river and we'll be heading in october in the Bahamas via Lac > Champlain ,the Hudson and the Intra Costal Waterway....It feels kind > of weard to enter the boat with non construction clothes and no tools, > instead bringning on board all kind of stuff just to take it out later > because of space restriction and keep saying to the wife '' NO WE > CAN'T FIT THE OLE HOUSE IN THE BOAT'' and '' YES DEAR WE DO NEED ALL > THESE TOOLS'' I am just finishing the ''most'' of the rest of things I > have to do before we leave, are we ready? > Of course not ..... but we wait to be ...we'll never leave > so I'll be signing off soon and............. ''Bon vent a tous'' Congratulations, good luck, and see you on the water! * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11729|11710|2006-09-17 10:41:58|woodcraftssuch|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: My father was the chief > ground systems engineer for the Titan ICBM, in fact, he's the guy they > brought in to turn the failing program around and make it fly. > Seer If a passive response to potential violence is such wonderfull way to assuage it, why don't all the forces fighting 'terrorism' stop dropping bombs and start dropping leaflets inviting them for tea and crackers? Seer, I haven't heard 'ICBM' for years. The last time I can remember was in the early '60's and there was a serious call in discussion on the radio about them and the Russians. Someone called in and said that the Eskimoes should be consulted. The moderator was bewildered and said he didn't understand. The caller responded that they should know all about IC(icey)BM's. Click. This might be an old joke but if it is that's the only time I ever heard it. :) Sam | 11730|11724|2006-09-17 10:57:34|Marcel Demers|Re: That's it|Congratulations, good luck, and see you on the water! * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * Thank's Ben Marcel Thank's [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11731|11710|2006-09-17 12:09:04|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 02:39:02PM -0000, woodcraftssuch wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > My father was the chief > > ground systems engineer for the Titan ICBM, in fact, he's the guy they > > brought in to turn the failing program around and make it fly. > Seer > > If a passive response to potential violence is such wonderfull way to > assuage it, why don't all the forces fighting 'terrorism' stop dropping > bombs and start dropping leaflets inviting them for tea and crackers? Has anyone here suggested a passive response to potential violence? I'd be curious to see a quote, or perhaps a link to that post in the archives. Most of the responses that _haven't_ followed seer's model of "I'll jest git muh big gun and kill'em all" have, as far as I've seen, come down to two points: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) There just isn't that much violence directed against the average yacht sailor. In fact, your chances of encountering it are very small - and a paranoid mindset is far more likely to land you in trouble ranging from jail to getting killed. 2) Avoiding and preventing the tiny remainder isn't all that difficult, and in the miniscule chance that you actually do find yourself in that kind of situation, staying alert and staying on top of the escalation - using whatever resources you possess [1] - is usually sufficient. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Are these *really* such difficult concepts to understand? Or is it just that "kill'em all and let god sort'em out" is so attractive because it doesn't require much thought? I'm a live-aboard long-distance cruiser who's spent 7 years in the Caribbean, so I have a little familiarity with "piracy panic" and "blood on decks" stories that are circulated by panicky idiots. I'm also an US Army veteran, a former pistol-based self-defense trainer, and a practicing security expert and instructor [2]; I'm also an American. I don't believe that these things have to add up to "brainless thug". [1] Of those, intelligence and ability (including training) are vastly more important than any gun. [2] Computer security, these days - but the design and the thought that go into protecting a computer system are the same as physical security, which I've also done. Computer security is far more difficult since it includes all of the physical security measures *and* the much more complex strictures of access, authentication, permissions, etc. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11732|11712|2006-09-17 12:57:51|srankin|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Well put Colin...Nice to see a little sanity.... Steve On Sun, 2006-17-09 at 09:58 +0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Not sure I understand you Colin, do you mean not overly endowed in > > cash? Well I suppose not compared to some :) > > Hi Seer - not my words (try Steve ). > > > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another day. > > Colin > > > Sorry, just not my style. > > seer > > So it would appear ... > > What I've noticed with dismay thoughout so many recent posts on boat > security is that the North American (admittedly, that's my regional > assumption) responses invariably seem tilted towards an aggressive > solution. Unless you have a fast and heavily armoured vessel, with > the necessary crew to man the various Howitzers on board, complete > with state of the art radar manned 24/7, then you really don't stand > much of a chance against those who possess the element of surprise in > terms of both the timing and location of their attack, and of the > choice of weapons they *may* be intending to deploy. > > A cruising sailboat can never be adequately equipped to deal with an > armed attack - it just ain't possible. So I would suggest the > development of an alternative mindset. > > An armed attack is an aggressive act, and to meet this with an > equally aggressive response is a recipe for an explosion of conflict > and probable loss of life. One of the biggest mistakes in an armed > attack scenario is in considering the intended intruder as an object > to be dealt with, rather than viewing him/her as a person, > specifically a person under stress from fear. A person about to > aggressively attack or board a vessel will have their adrenaline > pumping hard, and will be expecting some form of retaliation - fear > always being the primary reason for carrying weapons ! (hunting & > pest control excluded) > > There is a great story in Zen philosophy (I'll dig out the script if > asked) about the armed thief who enters the house of someone having > few possessions. Despite the intrusion the householder offers the > thief his modest hospitality (cup of tea or somesuch). The thief is > completely phased by this response as he even has his sword drawn > ready for a fight. Indeed, this response is so unexpected that the > thief drops his sword in surprise. The householder duly picks up the > sword and offers it back to the thief, who runs off in a state of > perplexed confusion. "That wasn't supposed to happen". Later the > thief is so troubled by what happened that he returns to offer money > in compensation (rather than steal it) and to ask forgiveness. > > Ok - so that didactic story is 100% idealistic - but has the > important learning point that thieves have a pre-determined plan in > mind when 'on a caper' and are usually not good at dealing with > anything which does not fall within their range of expectations. > Unusual and abrupt alarms fall into this category, but so too does > the response of the potential victim. It may not be very macho to > greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a smile, > and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just might > save your life. > > There are other considerations I think worthy of mention. Why does a > person want to steal, and why from a boat ? The professional pirate > is after much bigger game than your small yacht, so that leaves the > desperate amateur - perhaps poor by endemic poverty, or from drug > addiction. The poor arguably have a good case for receiving alms, > and the drug-addict will undoubtedly be exercising poor judgement at > the other end of a gun. So give 'em the money ... > > But why steal from boats ? An easy touch - perhaps ? My guess is > that cruising sailboats have become icons - they epitomise the > leasurely wealth of the first world, which is now being flaunted into > the faces of the empoverished third world and are thus seen as > legitimate (from their viewpoint) targets as sources of cash, and of > valuable and attractive items which can be removed and turned into > cash. If you don't have such items on board - or if as much as > possible is well secured, even welded in place if possible - then you > might just get away with offering a handful of cash, backed up with a > smile and shrug of the shoulders. > > You may have noticed that the First World doesn't have a piracy > problem (unless you count harbour-masters and tax collectors) - and > there is a reason for this. It ain't a fair world out there, being > comprised of the have's and have-not's. The cruising sailboat > represents wealth - regardless of whether you really are wealthy or > not by the standards of your home country. > Human behaviour which can so easily be dismissed as 'criminal' > usually has it's own underpinning logic - if you are willing to take > time out to unravel it. > > Colin > > > > > | 11733|11712|2006-09-17 13:01:05|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: So you think you know about electricity ...??|On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 09:58:58AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Not sure I understand you Colin, do you mean not overly endowed in > > cash? Well I suppose not compared to some :) > > Hi Seer - not my words (try Steve ). > > > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another day. > > Colin > > > Sorry, just not my style. > > seer > > > So it would appear ... > > What I've noticed with dismay thoughout so many recent posts on boat > security is that the North American (admittedly, that's my regional > assumption) responses invariably seem tilted towards an aggressive > solution. Unless you have a fast and heavily armoured vessel, with > the necessary crew to man the various Howitzers on board, complete > with state of the art radar manned 24/7, then you really don't stand > much of a chance against those who possess the element of surprise in > terms of both the timing and location of their attack, and of the > choice of weapons they *may* be intending to deploy. > > A cruising sailboat can never be adequately equipped to deal with an > armed attack - it just ain't possible. So I would suggest the > development of an alternative mindset. Wise words, sir. Each person needs to determine their own situation and their own resources; out of that come the decisions on what needs to be done and what can be done with the available tools. _Thinking_ about the potential situations and the range of possible responses to them is the greatest security tool there is. > There is a great story in Zen philosophy (I'll dig out the script if > asked) about the armed thief who enters the house of someone having > few possessions. Despite the intrusion the householder offers the > thief his modest hospitality (cup of tea or somesuch). The thief is > completely phased by this response as he even has his sword drawn > ready for a fight. Indeed, this response is so unexpected that the > thief drops his sword in surprise. The householder duly picks up the > sword and offers it back to the thief, who runs off in a state of > perplexed confusion. "That wasn't supposed to happen". Later the > thief is so troubled by what happened that he returns to offer money > in compensation (rather than steal it) and to ask forgiveness. > > Ok - so that didactic story is 100% idealistic - but has the > important learning point that thieves have a pre-determined plan in > mind when 'on a caper' and are usually not good at dealing with > anything which does not fall within their range of expectations. > Unusual and abrupt alarms fall into this category, but so too does > the response of the potential victim. It may not be very macho to > greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a smile, > and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just might > save your life. The general principle is often called "pattern interruption"; there's an excellent example of it in one of the "Rogue Warrior" books by Richard Marcinko, when two armed thieves try to rob him in an alley. Yeah, his books are partly entertaining fluff; yeah, Marcinko likes to grandstand a bit - but the principle holds true: not following the scripted scenario can be a very effective tactic. [laugh] Although I don't know that I'm brave enough to do what you suggest above - that's the *most* macho approach I've ever heard of! > There are other considerations I think worthy of mention. Why does a > person want to steal, and why from a boat ? The professional pirate > is after much bigger game than your small yacht, so that leaves the > desperate amateur - perhaps poor by endemic poverty, or from drug > addiction. The poor arguably have a good case for receiving alms, > and the drug-addict will undoubtedly be exercising poor judgement at > the other end of a gun. So give 'em the money ... Agreed, with a bit of refinement: the drug addict is usually desperate but not smart/ambitious enough to execute something as complicated as getting to and attacking a yacht. Most theft reports I've heard of have been "I left some stuff unsecured on deck, and now it's gone", and one case of "anchored off Port-au-Prince, Haiti (!!!), and someone brought a very skinny kid to the boat who got through the small hatch and stole a bunch of things." When I was in Luperon, DR, a bunch of us got together and offered our services to the local hospital - I checked out their standby generator and electrical system and mediated ordering the specialized light bulbs for their surgery from the States (theirs were burned out, but they couldn't get through the bureacratic hoo-hah to order what they needed; buying them from a foreign address required a ton of paperwork, so the manufacturer's rep was nice enough to send them a few "samples".) A chiropractor/massage therapist on another boat - this whole thing was his idea in the first place - offered his services for a day. Someone else advised them on a carpentry project. ... Several weeks later, when one of the yachts' dinghies came adrift, the local fishermen went out through the cut, found it, and dragged it back - and adamantly refused to take any money. I also suspect that if anyone in town _did_ steal anything off the boats, the other locals would straighten him out in short order. Best of all, I *know* that the good feeling toward yachties persisted in Luperon long past that one day's kindness. I don't think that there was any kind of strategic calculation of "we do this, then they won't do that" going on there; it was just a question of doing the decent thing - but the effects were positive, and (I like to think) lasting. > But why steal from boats ? An easy touch - perhaps ? My guess is > that cruising sailboats have become icons - they epitomise the > leasurely wealth of the first world, which is now being flaunted into > the faces of the empoverished third world and are thus seen as > legitimate (from their viewpoint) targets as sources of cash, and of > valuable and attractive items which can be removed and turned into > cash. If you don't have such items on board - or if as much as > possible is well secured, even welded in place if possible - then you > might just get away with offering a handful of cash, backed up with a > smile and shrug of the shoulders. Not flaunting wealth is definitely a good idea. Come to think of it, I like boats that look workman-like instead of Fahncy Yachtie anyway - keeping up the spit'n'polish isn't how I like to waste my life. > You may have noticed that the First World doesn't have a piracy > problem (unless you count harbour-masters and tax collectors) - and > there is a reason for this. It ain't a fair world out there, being > comprised of the have's and have-not's. The cruising sailboat > represents wealth - regardless of whether you really are wealthy or > not by the standards of your home country. [Nod] Strangely enough, the owners of the multi-million dollar homes on the shores of Florida aren't coming out in droves to rob the anchored yachts (they could do it easily - after all, most of them have a fishing boat tied up to their piers!) Say... perhaps there's something to your reasoning! :) > Human behaviour which can so easily be dismissed as 'criminal' > usually has it's own underpinning logic - if you are willing to take > time out to unravel it. Excellent thinking overall. Thank you for a well-reasoned contribution to this discussion... it's good to hear voices of reason. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11734|11724|2006-09-17 13:02:10|seeratlas|Re: That's it|Grats, savor the moment :) and a whole bunch of next 'bests' yet to come :) have at it "Captain" :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel Demers" wrote: > > Well guys my 36' Brent Swain is going from the mountains to the > water.... > On the 26th a flat bed and a crane will disturb the deers, bears > and 'coons.. the neighbors will wonder why they don't ear the grinder > on that day. > ''Sea Belle'' will be going to St-Paul l'Ile aux Noix on the Richelieu > river and we'll be heading in october in the Bahamas via Lac > Champlain ,the Hudson and the Intra Costal Waterway....It feels kind > of weard to enter the boat with non construction clothes and no tools, > instead bringning on board all kind of stuff just to take it out later > because of space restriction and keep saying to the wife '' NO WE > CAN'T FIT THE OLE HOUSE IN THE BOAT'' and '' YES DEAR WE DO NEED ALL > THESE TOOLS'' I am just finishing the ''most'' of the rest of things I > have to do before we leave, are we ready? > Of course not ..... but we wait to be ...we'll never leave > so I'll be signing off soon and............. ''Bon vent a tous'' > | 11735|11719|2006-09-17 13:11:25|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 10:43:25PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > I always had back problems until I switched to carpet on two layers of > half inch foam rug liner . No problems since . A friend with similar > back problems had the same experience. It can be found free or almost > free. my very high teck bloack nmeoprene three inch foam was a pain in > the back.Don't know why I put up with it so long. Wow. Brent, could I get the address for ordering your book, please? I *like* the way you think, and want to read about more of your ideas. The cushions on which we sleep in the aft cabin have collapsed flat after years of use (it was amazing to see: one day, 4" thick, a few days later, a hard flat pancake. These are just regular covered foam cushions.) We improvised a temporary measure by buying a 3" 'memory foam' pad ($100, yikes!) which is barely sufficient; your solution shouldn't even cost that, and sounds like it'll be permanent and comfortable. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11736|11712|2006-09-17 15:03:22|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Well stated Colin and I understand your points and appreciate what you have said. However, my concern is not with the casual sneakthief etc., I'm concerned with the guy who makes a living doing this, with his 'gang' or whatever, and is fully prepared to take life, rape, pillage etc. As you point out, you are less likely to meet this guy than the one you describe. Like i said, I plan for the worst, partly because of where I intend to go. I have met lots of these guys in the past and anticipate meeting more in the future...the world just seems to be going that way. I'm not talking about the 12 year old kid who makes off with your unwatched dinghy... One point that is implicit in these discussions and which you have stated straight out, is that every successful petty intimidation, theft, etc. emboldens the perp, creating an almost pavlovian reinforcement of the behavior, and thus engendering more and more of it. I don't see this changing any time soon, so my considerations involve planning for the person(s) this behavior has created. I know I know I know, that this is not something that happens every day...on the water....but it DOES happen many times every hour on land in most countries of the world and I fully expect things to continue to deteriorate on the water. Starting with petty theft, intimidation leading to 'gifts', etc., the passive-compliant reaction may be the best for most people. Once you start dealing with the 'thug' or gang who has some experience at this, and is willing to push the matter further, then you have different considerations, until finally you arrive at the guys who do this for a living, either for goods, ransom, or drug running; now you have an entirely different proposition. This discussion began, I think, with my observation that there are some 'really bad people' out there who WILL hurt you and that I have some experience with them. I proposed that people might want to consider in advance what they might do when confronted by such people. You also make an excellent observation regarding the politics of most third world theft against boats, especially flashy yachts. I know of at least one designer that has done some boats that look like derelict fishing vessels on the outside, and something quite different on the inside. Perhaps a good way to go 'low profile' world cruising. I think there's some middle ground. I don't see any reason a boat cannot be designed to be safe to sail, safe from the vagaries of the sea, wind, and weather, and even to some degree,safe from those who would seek to damage it or me. I think there are situations where bringing out the beer, a few packages of cigarettes, and perhaps a bottle or two might solve or avert potential problems. I myself carried a bunch of solar casio scientific calculators with me on the trip thru the old USSR that I referred to before, which opened a lot of doors and made a lot of friends with the technically minded persons I met with, and garnered at least a nod from their political bosses who understood the thought involved in bringing them. I've also swapped LaBatts for salmon in the more remote coastal areas of BC and Alaska. But these were not 'enforced' gifts... Then there will also be situations, admittedly more rare, when such gifts will avail you nothing. Then what do you do, die? I'm personally not a fan of that option, or putting myself into the position of only having that option. At the very least, one of the marinized short barrel shotguns is a good idea. Hell even Canada let me carry one when traveling back and forth thru on my way to and from Alaska. I would suggest one with the long tube magazine with the hunting plug (a wooden plug inserted to meet some regulations that limit a hunter's number of rounds in the gun) which is then removed giving you more available rounds. Alternating slug/buckshot rounds is very effective. I once hooked up to a BIG halibut off of Baranoff (sp?) island and my brother made the misstake of trying to dispatch it with a 9mm. After half a dozen shots, and since the fish was tearing hell out of the stern of the boat I sent him below to grab my Mossberg and that ended the 'discussion'. I have carried a militarized version in several of what are referred to today as "armed conflicts" and come out almost unscathed so I have some confidence in it. Lastly, as you note there are a number of reasons for crime, land or water. Unfortunately it is beyond me to solve the political and economic woes and inequities of the world and thus alleviate most of those causes. Even less so am I in the position of being able to 'convince' our modern day radicalized muslim 'friends' that it is highly unlikely that 72 virgins await them in Paradise in return for trying to cut my head off. I have, however, had some success in providing some of them the opportunity to test that belief sooner than they might have anticipated, while keeping my head and if that offends people, well... This is not, nor is it likely to become anytime 'real soon now' a 'fair' or loving world except in very small 'bubbles' in which people are protected from the insanity that rages around them, by people who understand and know how to deal with it. This is in large part the history of the United States. Travel outside the 'bubble' and...well..as I believe Byron said, "nature is red in tooth and claw" and I'm not so sure he wasn't referring to human nature when he wrote it. There are good people of all races and religions out there and it is worthwhile going out to meet them. However, in so doing, you are going to encounter others... to each their own. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > Not sure I understand you Colin, do you mean not overly endowed in > > cash? Well I suppose not compared to some :) > > Hi Seer - not my words (try Steve ). > > > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another day. > > Colin > > > Sorry, just not my style. > > seer > > > So it would appear ... > > What I've noticed with dismay thoughout so many recent posts on boat > security is that the North American (admittedly, that's my regional > assumption) responses invariably seem tilted towards an aggressive > solution. Unless you have a fast and heavily armoured vessel, with > the necessary crew to man the various Howitzers on board, complete > with state of the art radar manned 24/7, then you really don't stand > much of a chance against those who possess the element of surprise in > terms of both the timing and location of their attack, and of the > choice of weapons they *may* be intending to deploy. > > A cruising sailboat can never be adequately equipped to deal with an > armed attack - it just ain't possible. So I would suggest the > development of an alternative mindset. > > An armed attack is an aggressive act, and to meet this with an > equally aggressive response is a recipe for an explosion of conflict > and probable loss of life. One of the biggest mistakes in an armed > attack scenario is in considering the intended intruder as an object > to be dealt with, rather than viewing him/her as a person, > specifically a person under stress from fear. A person about to > aggressively attack or board a vessel will have their adrenaline > pumping hard, and will be expecting some form of retaliation - fear > always being the primary reason for carrying weapons ! (hunting & > pest control excluded) > > There is a great story in Zen philosophy (I'll dig out the script if > asked) about the armed thief who enters the house of someone having > few possessions. Despite the intrusion the householder offers the > thief his modest hospitality (cup of tea or somesuch). The thief is > completely phased by this response as he even has his sword drawn > ready for a fight. Indeed, this response is so unexpected that the > thief drops his sword in surprise. The householder duly picks up the > sword and offers it back to the thief, who runs off in a state of > perplexed confusion. "That wasn't supposed to happen". Later the > thief is so troubled by what happened that he returns to offer money > in compensation (rather than steal it) and to ask forgiveness. > > Ok - so that didactic story is 100% idealistic - but has the > important learning point that thieves have a pre-determined plan in > mind when 'on a caper' and are usually not good at dealing with > anything which does not fall within their range of expectations. > Unusual and abrupt alarms fall into this category, but so too does > the response of the potential victim. It may not be very macho to > greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a smile, > and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just might > save your life. > > There are other considerations I think worthy of mention. Why does a > person want to steal, and why from a boat ? The professional pirate > is after much bigger game than your small yacht, so that leaves the > desperate amateur - perhaps poor by endemic poverty, or from drug > addiction. The poor arguably have a good case for receiving alms, > and the drug-addict will undoubtedly be exercising poor judgement at > the other end of a gun. So give 'em the money ... > > But why steal from boats ? An easy touch - perhaps ? My guess is > that cruising sailboats have become icons - they epitomise the > leasurely wealth of the first world, which is now being flaunted into > the faces of the empoverished third world and are thus seen as > legitimate (from their viewpoint) targets as sources of cash, and of > valuable and attractive items which can be removed and turned into > cash. If you don't have such items on board - or if as much as > possible is well secured, even welded in place if possible - then you > might just get away with offering a handful of cash, backed up with a > smile and shrug of the shoulders. > > You may have noticed that the First World doesn't have a piracy > problem (unless you count harbour-masters and tax collectors) - and > there is a reason for this. It ain't a fair world out there, being > comprised of the have's and have-not's. The cruising sailboat > represents wealth - regardless of whether you really are wealthy or > not by the standards of your home country. > Human behaviour which can so easily be dismissed as 'criminal' > usually has it's own underpinning logic - if you are willing to take > time out to unravel it. > > Colin > | 11737|11724|2006-09-17 18:04:53|Alex Christie|Re: That's it|Felicitations, Congratulations Marcel, Je vous souhaite un bon voyage! Always great to hear about another boat ready to hit the water -- an inspiration :-) Alex On 16-Sep-06, at 9:24 PM, Marcel Demers wrote: > Well guys my 36' Brent Swain is going from the mountains to the > water.... > On the 26th a flat bed and a crane will disturb the deers, bears > and 'coons.. the neighbors will wonder why they don't ear the grinder > on that day. > ''Sea Belle'' will be going to St-Paul l'Ile aux Noix on the Richelieu > river and we'll be heading in october in the Bahamas via Lac > Champlain ,the Hudson and the Intra Costal Waterway....It feels kind > of weard to enter the boat with non construction clothes and no tools, > instead bringning on board all kind of stuff just to take it out later > because of space restriction and keep saying to the wife '' NO WE > CAN'T FIT THE OLE HOUSE IN THE BOAT'' and '' YES DEAR WE DO NEED ALL > THESE TOOLS'' I am just finishing the ''most'' of the rest of things I > have to do before we leave, are we ready? > Of course not ..... but we wait to be ...we'll never leave > so I'll be signing off soon and............. ''Bon vent a tous'' > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11738|11712|2006-09-17 18:11:04|jim_both|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > Like i said, I plan for the worst, partly because > of where I intend to go. Hi Seer; I'm wondering where it is that you intend to go? Cheers, Jim| 11739|11719|2006-09-17 18:13:04|Alex Christie|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|I think Brent is referring to what is also called "carpet underlay", the recycled half-inch (or so) thick multi-coloured foam rubber that you put down on the floor before laying down the carpet, lending the springy feel to the average carpet. I've cadged quite a bit of it for free from the local carpet outlet, as they have no use for the remaining bits on a roll after a large job. It could be doubled on your bunk, or tripled, to make any level of thickness you like, as long as it was entombed in a cover so the bits didn't get away. Definitely the zero-dollar solution for those who need it (eg. Me)! Alex On 17-Sep-06, at 4:49 AM, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'foam rug liner' ? > > Thanks, > Courtney > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11740|11740|2006-09-17 21:15:18|seeratlas|Good article on Carib sailing security. Something for everyone here.|http://www.tor.cc/articles/crime.htm I think this is a pretty fair treatment all in all and strikes a good balance between the extremes of thought on the subject. It mirrors much of what our more 'moderate' sailors have posted on this subject and lays out some good common sense things that are easy and for that reason sometimes overlooked. seer| 11741|11719|2006-09-17 21:17:04|seeratlas|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|Ahhh, hadn't thought about that stuff. Sure would last as most of that padding is designed for what? ten to twenty years of being walked all over? which is far higher psi than the average overweight american behind :) I guess my question would be, does it come in closed cell type? If not I could envisage one helluva soggy mess trying to dry it out. I've pulled up wet carpet before and the stuff I've had always bore a remarkable resemblance to your average sponge. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I think Brent is referring to what is also called "carpet underlay", > the recycled half-inch (or so) thick multi-coloured foam rubber that > you put down on the floor before laying down the carpet, lending the > springy feel to the average carpet. I've cadged quite a bit of it for > free from the local carpet outlet, as they have no use for the > remaining bits on a roll after a large job. It could be doubled on > your bunk, or tripled, to make any level of thickness you like, as long > as it was entombed in a cover so the bits didn't get away. Definitely > the zero-dollar solution for those who need it (eg. Me)! > > Alex > > On 17-Sep-06, at 4:49 AM, Courtney Thomas wrote: > > > Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'foam rug liner' ? > > > > Thanks, > > Courtney > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11742|11724|2006-09-17 22:10:23|Marcel Demers|Re: That's it|----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 1:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: That's it Thank's a lot seer Marcel Grats, savor the moment :) and a whole bunch of next 'bests' yet to come :) have at it "Captain" :) seer --- Recent Activity a.. 9New Members Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS a.. Yacht financing b.. Motor yacht c.. Yacht delivery d.. Vancouver island lodging e.. Sailing yacht Yahoo! News Science News Get the latest scientific news. Y! GeoCities Be Interactive Create a conver- sation with blogs. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11743|11724|2006-09-17 22:17:33|Marcel Demers|Re: That's it|----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 2:09 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] That's it Merci Alex Felicitations, Congratulations Marcel, Je vous souhaite un bon voyage! Always great to hear about another boat ready to hit the water -- an inspiration :-) Alex ] Recent Activity a.. 9New Members Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS a.. Yacht financing b.. Motor yacht c.. Yacht delivery d.. Vancouver island lodging e.. Sailing yacht Yahoo! News Most Popular News What's the most popular news now? Y! GeoCities Share More Create a blog, web site, and more. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11744|11740|2006-09-17 22:19:22|seeratlas|Re: Good article on Carib sailing security. Something for everyone |You know, the more on this guy's site I read, the more I'm impressed. Lots of good information and advice on a whole range of subjects. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://www.tor.cc/articles/crime.htm > > I think this is a pretty fair treatment all in all and strikes a good > balance between the extremes of thought on the subject. It mirrors much > of what our more 'moderate' sailors have posted on this subject and > lays out some good common sense things that are easy and for that > reason sometimes overlooked. > > seer > | 11745|11745|2006-09-17 22:37:23|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Pitfalls of security (Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose)|One of the constant challenges of security engineering is in discovering the ways in which the security system itself is vulnerable (e.g., a common tactic that burglars use is to trip the alarm several times until the owner and the police decide it's a false alarm and ignore it or disable it.) Mark Twain (!) wrote a story about a burglar alarm that demonstrates several of these... and these same problems are as common today as they were in his time. http://ths.gardenweb.com/twain/alarm/ It's hilarious, but it's also quite accurate in describing the possible problems. Considering that you may come home tired or distracted - or drunk, for some of us - or that your wife or child may forget that the system is armed - or that you may *think* it's armed when it's not, and trigger it by flipping it "off" - or that some system failure mode may trigger it - I suggest thinking long and hard before setting up automated systems that will result in serious bodily harm. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11747|11712|2006-09-18 06:04:24|jim_both|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|The reason I'm asking is that the last I heard was that you were planning on going through the canals of Europe, which is possibly the safest cruising ground. I think the most dangerous area for cruisers is the area around the southern entrance to the Suez Canal (Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, Somalia). The noonsite.com has an onsite meeting place to form convoys through this area; anyone going through the Suez on their own lacks good judgement. I also think some of Carribean and South America are no picnics. Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > Like i said, I plan for the worst, partly because > > of where I intend to go. > > Hi Seer; > > I'm wondering where it is that you intend to go? > > Cheers, Jim > | 11748|11740|2006-09-18 09:42:52|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Good article on Carib sailing security. Something for everyone |On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 12:58:36AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > http://www.tor.cc/articles/crime.htm > > I think this is a pretty fair treatment all in all and strikes a good > balance between the extremes of thought on the subject. It mirrors much > of what our more 'moderate' sailors have posted on this subject and > lays out some good common sense things that are easy and for that > reason sometimes overlooked. Although quite dated (1994), some of it is indeed sensible advice ("Good seamanship requires that mariners be aware, alert, and prepared for any eventuality. This applies no less to threats of a human nature.") On the other hand, the description of the skipper who rigged Mace cans to point out of his hatch *as well as inward*... let's just say that I wouldn't be caught dead as crew or even a guest on his boat if I knew about it. The idea is similar to carrying a nuclear bomb on your boat; if someone tries to rob it while you're aboard, setting it off will sure show them buggers!!! Tor is a good writer; I've read a lot of his stuff in the past (although not in the recent years) - but he tends to, erm, spice up reality just a bit by choosing to cite extreme examples (what we in the editorial game call "interviewing the other idiot".) It makes the story sound good at the cost of accuracy - which, depending on whether you're trying for, can be a valid approach. The problem comes when people read a story for excitement but end up believing it and treating it as real information. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11749|11710|2006-09-18 10:17:26|woodcraftssuch|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 02:39:02PM -0000, woodcraftssuch wrote: > > If a passive response to potential violence is such wonderfull way to > > assuage it, why don't all the forces fighting 'terrorism' stop dropping > > bombs and start dropping leaflets inviting them for tea and crackers? > > Has anyone here suggested a passive response to potential violence? I'd > be curious to see a quote, or perhaps a link to that post in the > archives. > * Ben Okopnik ................. It may not be very macho to > greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a smile, > and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just might > save your life. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11726 Sam| 11750|11724|2006-09-18 10:19:53|Aaron Williams|Re: That's it|Bon Voyage :-) Dont forget to send pictures Marcel Demers wrote: Well guys my 36' Brent Swain is going from the mountains to the water.... On the 26th a flat bed and a crane will disturb the deers, bears and 'coons.. the neighbors will wonder why they don't ear the grinder on that day. ''Sea Belle'' will be going to St-Paul l'Ile aux Noix on the Richelieu river and we'll be heading in october in the Bahamas via Lac Champlain ,the Hudson and the Intra Costal Waterway....It feels kind of weard to enter the boat with non construction clothes and no tools, instead bringning on board all kind of stuff just to take it out later because of space restriction and keep saying to the wife '' NO WE CAN'T FIT THE OLE HOUSE IN THE BOAT'' and '' YES DEAR WE DO NEED ALL THESE TOOLS'' I am just finishing the ''most'' of the rest of things I have to do before we leave, are we ready? Of course not ..... but we wait to be ...we'll never leave so I'll be signing off soon and............. ''Bon vent a tous'' --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11751|11719|2006-09-18 10:35:12|woodcraftssuch|Re: Beds and matresses for boats|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I always had back problems until I switched to carpet on two layers of > half inch foam rug liner . No problems since . After high school, 3 friends and I road Great Northern freight trains for 3 trips between Seattle and Minneapolis. All we had for beds were 2 layers of cardboard and sleeping bags on the freight car floor, and it was some of the best sleeping ever. Maybe the rhythms and the clickety- clack had something to do with it. Sam| 11752|11712|2006-09-18 10:45:44|Sugar|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Hi Colin, Time and time again, we as girls are told by the police to FIGHT. We are told as girls that the odds of NOT being hurt or killed is almost zero. We are shown on tv over and over again that when it comes to the real bad guys (like the serial killers)....if you don't try and fight, run, get away you won't be coming home. They also teach us that the guys that are not all that bad are looking for easy targets. They teach us that "sometimes" if we fight back they take off because they are looking for an easy prey and there is always another one right around the corner. I have known Seer for many many years. He and his family have traveled all over the world for pleasure and Seer, he's traveled for many reasons. Those that have been in situations of fight or die learn to always be prepared. I would rather be with someone like Seer, knowing that there is a plan of action if something bad starts to happen, than to have the attitude of some of you here that, well, it "probably" won't happen to me. Or "mabye" if I'm nice they will just take what they want and leave. Quite often that just doesn't happen. I have traveled for years with Seer and not once have I ever been afraid. He's not only good about keeping a level head and ALWAYS having a plan of action and ALWAYS aware of his surroundings, but he's also a very good communicator on what to do "IF" something goes wrong. There's nothing wrong with KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge makes it possible to be able to NOT live in fear. If there is a plan of action you reduce the level of fear and thus keep a better level head. You are able to stay calmer. Oh and I read earlier in this conversation where Seer used the scenario of walking in a room like the cowboys, yes that is true. If you appear to be tall, strong, sure of yourself, you are more apt to be left alone. Seer walks in a room like he owns the place and people back up and leave him alone. Even though he gives that cowboy style attitude he's friendly and has no trouble making friends everywhere he goes. But those that are trouble are just that..trouble. And they shy away, they back up, they get quiet. It works. You asked why a person wants to steal. Yes you bring up some good points. But you can't count on just the professional pirate looking for big game or the little poor guy that is hungry. There are some people that are just plain bad. There are some that just love that adrenalin rush from doing something bad. And yes I too believe that there are some that view the cruising vesel as wealth. We can't live our lives in fear but having KNOWLEDGE, knowing that there are pirates out there, and having a plan does seem to help. Oh, one more thing, we as women are also taught to always be aware of our surrounding. It's the people that don't pay attention to their surroundings that seem to end up in trouble. They become an easy target, at least, that's what we as women are taught by the local police and TV. Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Not sure I understand you Colin, do you mean not overly endowed in > > cash? Well I suppose not compared to some :) > > Hi Seer - not my words (try Steve ). > > > Suggest you hand over your cash and live to sail another day. > > Colin > > > Sorry, just not my style. > > seer > > > So it would appear ... > > What I've noticed with dismay thoughout so many recent posts on boat > security is that the North American (admittedly, that's my regional > assumption) responses invariably seem tilted towards an aggressive > solution. Unless you have a fast and heavily armoured vessel, with > the necessary crew to man the various Howitzers on board, complete > with state of the art radar manned 24/7, then you really don't stand > much of a chance against those who possess the element of surprise in > terms of both the timing and location of their attack, and of the > choice of weapons they *may* be intending to deploy. > > A cruising sailboat can never be adequately equipped to deal with an > armed attack - it just ain't possible. So I would suggest the > development of an alternative mindset. > > An armed attack is an aggressive act, and to meet this with an > equally aggressive response is a recipe for an explosion of conflict > and probable loss of life. One of the biggest mistakes in an armed > attack scenario is in considering the intended intruder as an object > to be dealt with, rather than viewing him/her as a person, > specifically a person under stress from fear. A person about to > aggressively attack or board a vessel will have their adrenaline > pumping hard, and will be expecting some form of retaliation - fear > always being the primary reason for carrying weapons ! (hunting & > pest control excluded) > > There is a great story in Zen philosophy (I'll dig out the script if > asked) about the armed thief who enters the house of someone having > few possessions. Despite the intrusion the householder offers the > thief his modest hospitality (cup of tea or somesuch). The thief is > completely phased by this response as he even has his sword drawn > ready for a fight. Indeed, this response is so unexpected that the > thief drops his sword in surprise. The householder duly picks up the > sword and offers it back to the thief, who runs off in a state of > perplexed confusion. "That wasn't supposed to happen". Later the > thief is so troubled by what happened that he returns to offer money > in compensation (rather than steal it) and to ask forgiveness. > > Ok - so that didactic story is 100% idealistic - but has the > important learning point that thieves have a pre-determined plan in > mind when 'on a caper' and are usually not good at dealing with > anything which does not fall within their range of expectations. > Unusual and abrupt alarms fall into this category, but so too does > the response of the potential victim. It may not be very macho to > greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a smile, > and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just might > save your life. > > There are other considerations I think worthy of mention. Why does a > person want to steal, and why from a boat ? The professional pirate > is after much bigger game than your small yacht, so that leaves the > desperate amateur - perhaps poor by endemic poverty, or from drug > addiction. The poor arguably have a good case for receiving alms, > and the drug-addict will undoubtedly be exercising poor judgement at > the other end of a gun. So give 'em the money ... > > But why steal from boats ? An easy touch - perhaps ? My guess is > that cruising sailboats have become icons - they epitomise the > leasurely wealth of the first world, which is now being flaunted into > the faces of the empoverished third world and are thus seen as > legitimate (from their viewpoint) targets as sources of cash, and of > valuable and attractive items which can be removed and turned into > cash. If you don't have such items on board - or if as much as > possible is well secured, even welded in place if possible - then you > might just get away with offering a handful of cash, backed up with a > smile and shrug of the shoulders. > > You may have noticed that the First World doesn't have a piracy > problem (unless you count harbour-masters and tax collectors) - and > there is a reason for this. It ain't a fair world out there, being > comprised of the have's and have-not's. The cruising sailboat > represents wealth - regardless of whether you really are wealthy or > not by the standards of your home country. > Human behaviour which can so easily be dismissed as 'criminal' > usually has it's own underpinning logic - if you are willing to take > time out to unravel it. > > Colin > | 11753|11712|2006-09-18 11:45:57|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|> > Hi Seer; > > I'm wondering where it is that you intend to go? > > Cheers, Jim > Detroit? LOL (with all due respect to the "South Park" boys :) seer| 11754|11712|2006-09-18 12:42:29|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Jim, the easy answer to where I intend to go is wherever the wind blows. :) The more realistic answer is dictated by how much longer I live, and some geo/political considerations. During my life I've had occasions to 'pass through' a lot of wonderful places, I'd like to go back to at some point, be able to spend more time and renew old friendships made under much less agreeable circumstances. I've been thinking lately a lot about exactly where to build. I'm entertaining the thought of packing up all the equiptment I want to put in the boat, and some of the items I think I may have some difficulty getting overseas, some specialty metals and machinery, and then putting the whole kaboodle in a container, booking a cabin and cargo space on a transport, and heading off to one of several places to have the boat constructed. For instance, I have some friends in Estonia, which along with the neighboring republics of Latvia and Lithuania (especially the latter) have quite a history in ship building. I've been exploring the idea of arriving late summer, early fall, having the hull put together (with the assistance of Alex and Brent's videos :) and then moving the whole thing inside a heated shed then retaining one of the old world carpenters to come in and help me put together an interior that fits me over the winter. There's an abundance of local hardwoods and u can't beat the old world craftsmanship. The costs are less than in the States. Come spring, fit out, do some shakedown sailing around the local area then set out around the Baltic. St. Petersberg is now open, and in the right season, a wonderful place to visit. Russia is repairing the canal system there as fast as possible and most of the city is easily accessable. There used to be a heck of a nightclub there run by the East Germans :) Would be fun to pop in and see if any of the old crowd is still around:) Probably all billionaires now LOL. In any event the sky's the limit for the rest of spring and summer. Finland, the gillions of lakes around Sweden, a dash up a couple of fjords, maybe a quick run across to Scotland, up and over the new canal thru the 'wheel' which I just HAVE to see, then maybe off to Ireland. Toss a few brewski's with some of the officers I used to know there, back across to southern England, a few stops to say hi to some hopefully retired by now members of the Royal Navy, a run up the Channel, (I'd like to see Dover on a clear day for once :) Hit a few places on the coasts of France, the Netherlands etc. There's someone in Denmark I'd like to say hi to. Well you get the idea. Eventually hit the canals from the North, roam around till late fall, then find a place to spend the winter, perhaps the marina across from Notre Dame in Paris. Come spring, one of two ways to go, either south to the Med, or east, jump onto the Rhine, then the Danube and clear down thru the former Eastern Bloc to the Black Sea. From there a trip north to Yalta to say hi to an old "comrade". Then things get a bit dicey, and I'll have to wait and see what the situation is like from there. At the least, I'll hit the coasts of Turkey and Greece then again decisions to be made about whether its safe enough to return to Beirut and Israel. Again depending on the situation, I might lock the boat up in Tel Aviv and fly into Cairo as I have an old enemy-now friend to look up there. After that, the issue becomes the Suez, and that will depend on what is going on there at that time. If you've never seen Aqaba, its worth doing if possible and that would give me a chance to give my respects to one of the truly great men I ever met. Once thru the Red Sea, then its an island hop to some places in India where I know family of family and have a standing invitation. From there its into the 'soup' of points east where if it hasn't by then, I would expect things to get a bit more intense. I'll play that fast and loose and gradually work my way around to Taiwan where I had some memorable adventures, and some good friends. If things are amenable, I'll hit the mainland and assuming I can find a secure berth, head inland to Beijing and again say hello to some old friends, assuming they're still "IN" 's and not "OUT"'s :). From there back across, then off to Japan. Tho the waters around Japan can be 'really' rough, the northern Islands are really worth seeing and the seafaring population wonderfully friendly people. There's an issue whether I'll be able to get clearance to Kamchatka but its worth seeing again if I can manage it. At some point I have some friends in the Philipines I'd like to see, so back that way, ...etc. etc. etc. I think you get the picture. I've never gotten to the southern island of NZ, or Tasmania, and the Aussies are perhaps my favorite people on the planet so... :) I'll just try and get in as much in as I can in the time I have left, which with any luck will be alot. As you can see, there's a reason I've spent so much time trying to figure out how to build one boat big enough, yet small enough :), strong enough, tough enough, wide enough, but thin enough, heavy enough but light enough, deep enough but shallow enough , and safe enough to do all of these things, with a modicum of creature comforts and some reasonable provisions for personal and ship security. it ain't easy. :) or without controversy :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > The reason I'm asking is that the last I heard was that you were > planning on going through the canals of Europe, which is possibly the > safest cruising ground. > > I think the most dangerous area for cruisers is the area around the > southern entrance to the Suez Canal (Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, Somalia). > The noonsite.com has an onsite meeting place to form convoys through > this area; anyone going through the Suez on their own lacks good > judgement. > > I also think some of Carribean and South America are no picnics. > Cheers, Jim > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > > wrote: > > > Like i said, I plan for the worst, partly because > > > of where I intend to go. > > > > Hi Seer; > > > > I'm wondering where it is that you intend to go? > > > > Cheers, Jim > > > | 11755|11710|2006-09-18 14:12:11|seeratlas|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > My father was the chief > > ground systems engineer for the Titan ICBM, in fact, he's the guy they > > brought in to turn the failing program around and make it fly. > Seer > > If a passive response to potential violence is such wonderfull way to > assuage it, why don't all the forces fighting 'terrorism' stop dropping > bombs and start dropping leaflets inviting them for tea and crackers? > Seer, I haven't heard 'ICBM' for years. The last time I can remember > was in the early '60's and there was a serious call in discussion on > the radio about them and the Russians. Someone called in and said that > the Eskimoes should be consulted. The moderator was bewildered and said > he didn't understand. The caller responded that they should know all > about IC(icey)BM's. Click. This might be an old joke but if it is > that's the only time I ever heard it. :) Sam > LOL . Sam, I could tell you stories of being up there in the Colorado mountains when one of those things would get half way out of the silo and then BOOOOOM!!!! It was intense. People were getting killed :( I used to fall asleep up against our front door wrapped in blankets against the cold so that my father couldn't get in the house without waking me up so I could see him. He'd then bundle me up and we would go out to his little 4 banger jeep and drive thru the mountain snow in silence while he wound down from the pressures of the day. (Something I still do). He was part commanche, german/magyar poor white trash from the 'Big Pasture" country of Oklahoma, who decided young to become MORE, and he did:) Six months later that sob missle took off, wound its way down to the South Pacific and hit within a few hundred yards of where it was supposed to go, and the entire balance of strategic military power in the world shifted towards the US, where it has stayed ever since. He was a great sportsman, as good with a rifle as I am, yet far better with a shotgun. There was really only one thing he wanted to do for himself in his own life, to go fishing on the Great Bear and Slave lakes in Canada. We kept putting it off and putting it off, and then I finally found time, we got two big diesel trucks, two boats, overbuilt trailers, and got ready to go. And then he died. His funeral was like a "Who's Who" of certain elements of the military /industrial community. You know as I write this i'm watching the preparations for Iran's president's speech at the UN , and to tell you the truth it makes me sick. I'm guessing he's going to get lots of applause, perhaps even a standing ovation. Here's a guy advocating genocide and the complete and utter destruction of a member state being feted by some of the most corrupt political officials on the planet, in the name of international unity and security. What's wrong with this picture? I was once invited to take a special seminar course on the UN and International Law run by one of the guys principally responsible for its existence, in fact one of my doctoral theses dealt with the law of the sea (don't ask, i've forgotten most of it other than the time honored "The guy with the biggest boat has the right of way" LOL, not legally true, but the way to bet if he's heading your direction :) Anyway, I had just come from one of those 'armed conflicts' and had just about had my full of the UN and its 'peacekeepers'. This professor, a bald, rotund, gentle little bespectacled man, would lecture to a silent room for an hour at a time, never moving his eyes from his materials (while the 10 or 12 of us would sit in silence taking notes. He spent hours describing the negotiations, endless redrafting, ego stroking etc. that resulted in the eventual creation of the UN. After about a week of this, I finally raised my hand, which he didn't see, then a few "excuse me, professor? "'s and he looked up in surprise, scanned his little seating chart and addressed me by name.."yes mr. ______"? To paraphrase, I asked him something along the following lines.." Professor _____. You've spent your entire life trying to build some kind of international political body, finally succeeding in the UN. Now that you see what it's become, doesn't that tear your guts out?" There was a kind of hushed gasp from the group, and several moments of complete silence while he raised his glasses and stared HARD right into my eyes..I couldn't believe what I saw there. After a few intense moments, his eyes softened, then saddend and he then began to speak, for the first time, TO the students in the seminar as opposed to "AT" them. He went on for some time, far more eloquently than I can now relate, but the upshot was that mankind is embarked on a struggle to rise above its animal heritage. That in many respects it is much like constructing a large building. First comes the foundation, then slowly brick by brick the building rises out of the dust. To be sure there are those who seek to tear down what others build and it will always be that way, but as more and more people come round, the bricks go up faster than they can be torn down, and despite the efforts of the primitive few, civilization continues to advance, albeit oh so slowly. He then made an observation which we Americans sometimes forget in our haste to accomplish all we can during the course of a single feeble lifetime. He said that yes, it hurt him terribly to see his life's work misused and corrupted, but still, he did not expect to effectuate such a monumental task in a single lifetime. He would lay his bricks, protect them as best he could during his time, and that others would come after to build upon what he had started, and that was enough for any man. He was a great man, a man for the ages, an Austrian jew, and for a time he invited me to see the world thru his eyes, and made me *more* because of it. I am honored to have known him. He died recently at the age of 92 and I hope he has at last found the peace that eluded him and his people in his life. Two great men with entirely different views of how to deal with the evils of the world. One who's power derived from the ability to lead from the top, great physical presence, lack of fear, and a dominating sheer force of will; and one who's power lay in quiet persuasion, political manipulation, incredible persistence and an unyielding faith and determination in the future of man. Good teachers both. seer| 11756|11710|2006-09-18 19:47:55|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 01:58:11PM -0000, woodcraftssuch wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 02:39:02PM -0000, woodcraftssuch wrote: > > > If a passive response to potential violence is such wonderfull > way to > > > assuage it, why don't all the forces fighting 'terrorism' stop > dropping > > > bombs and start dropping leaflets inviting them for tea and > crackers? > > > > Has anyone here suggested a passive response to potential violence? > I'd > > be curious to see a quote, or perhaps a link to that post in the > > archives. > > * Ben Okopnik > > ................. > > It may not be very macho to > > greet thieves with a friendly wave, hand over your cash with a > smile, > > and even offer the thief a drink before he leaves - but it just > might > > save your life. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11726 I note that the post you cite came _after_ you made that claim - but thanks for taking the time to look it up. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11757|11712|2006-09-18 20:57:52|peter_d_wiley|Re: So you think you know about electricity ...?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I've never gotten to the southern island of NZ, or Tasmania, and the > Aussies are perhaps my favorite people on the planet so... :) I'll > just try and get in as much in as I can in the time I have left, which > with any luck will be alot. Funnily enough I live in Tasmania these days, on 3.5 acres of waterfront reserve. I have a mooring out the front that's generally available for visitors. Right now I'm building the barn/ shed to build the boat, but am getting there. Going to sea for months at a time during summer slows progress. Lots of good sailing around here, and not too many people. PDW| 11758|11712|2006-09-18 21:30:23|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: So you think you know about electricity ...?|On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 12:50:32AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > I've never gotten to the southern island of NZ, or Tasmania, and the > > Aussies are perhaps my favorite people on the planet so... :) I'll > > just try and get in as much in as I can in the time I have left, which > > with any luck will be alot. > > Funnily enough I live in Tasmania these days, on 3.5 acres of waterfront reserve. I have a > mooring out the front that's generally available for visitors. Right now I'm building the barn/ > shed to build the boat, but am getting there. Going to sea for months at a time during > summer slows progress. > > Lots of good sailing around here, and not too many people. Reminds me of a Kiwi I knew in St. Thomas... Alf, S/V "Anastasia" (a steel boat) if memory serves. He had built her somewhere in southern NZ, and mentioned the great sailing around there. During Hurricane Marilyn, his boat got crushed by a 100' vessel (also steel) and forced underwater by the weight of the other boat. He got her refloated afterwards, banged out the hull a bit, and was replacing the water-damaged interior - all while living aboard. A boat made out of pretty much anything else would have been a thin layer of sludge on the bottom. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11759|11745|2006-09-18 21:46:20|peter_d_wiley|Re: Pitfalls of security (Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > One of the constant challenges of security engineering is in discovering > the ways in which the security system itself is vulnerable (e.g., a > common tactic that burglars use is to trip the alarm several times until > the owner and the police decide it's a false alarm and ignore it or > disable it.) Mark Twain (!) wrote a story about a burglar alarm that > demonstrates several of these... and these same problems are as common > today as they were in his time. > > http://ths.gardenweb.com/twain/alarm/ > > It's hilarious, but it's also quite accurate in describing the possible > problems. > > Considering that you may come home tired or distracted - or drunk, for > some of us - or that your wife or child may forget that the system is > armed - or that you may *think* it's armed when it's not, and trigger it > by flipping it "off" - or that some system failure mode may trigger it - > I suggest thinking long and hard before setting up automated systems > that will result in serious bodily harm. In Australia, doing this *will* get you prosecuted if caught. You're not allowed to set automated traps of any kind. Then again, why bother here? Plenty of safe cruising from the trpoics to the cool temperate regions. PDW| 11760|11745|2006-09-18 23:09:51|seeratlas|Re: Pitfalls of security (Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose)|Deadliest traps I ever saw were on aussie beaches, the "White Pointers" would get you every time :) seer seriously tho, back in the bad old days when I'd get an extended leave I tried to go to as many different places as I could. In europe people would look at the uniform and I'd hear a lot of muttering under their breaths and behind my back which would vanish If I turned around to look em in the face. In Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, everyone kept trying to sell me something, a watch, drugs, their sister... But the biggest baddest missing teeth, scarred face and broken nosed aussies would look me dead in the eye, throw their shoulders back, walk straight up to my face and hand me something called a 'Darwin Stubbie' which WILL knock the average t-totaler on his arse:) Good times there, and good memories. gotta love a people like that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > One of the constant challenges of security engineering is in discovering > > the ways in which the security system itself is vulnerable (e.g., a > > common tactic that burglars use is to trip the alarm several times until > > the owner and the police decide it's a false alarm and ignore it or > > disable it.) Mark Twain (!) wrote a story about a burglar alarm that > > demonstrates several of these... and these same problems are as common > > today as they were in his time. > > > > http://ths.gardenweb.com/twain/alarm/ > > > > It's hilarious, but it's also quite accurate in describing the possible > > problems. > > > > Considering that you may come home tired or distracted - or drunk, for > > some of us - or that your wife or child may forget that the system is > > armed - or that you may *think* it's armed when it's not, and trigger it > > by flipping it "off" - or that some system failure mode may trigger it - > > I suggest thinking long and hard before setting up automated systems > > that will result in serious bodily harm. > > In Australia, doing this *will* get you prosecuted if caught. You're not allowed to set > automated traps of any kind. > > Then again, why bother here? Plenty of safe cruising from the trpoics to the cool > temperate regions. > > PDW > | 11761|11745|2006-09-18 23:58:58|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Pitfalls of security (Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose)|On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 01:28:28AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > One of the constant challenges of security engineering is in discovering > > the ways in which the security system itself is vulnerable (e.g., a > > common tactic that burglars use is to trip the alarm several times until > > the owner and the police decide it's a false alarm and ignore it or > > disable it.) Mark Twain (!) wrote a story about a burglar alarm that > > demonstrates several of these... and these same problems are as common > > today as they were in his time. > > > > http://ths.gardenweb.com/twain/alarm/ > > > > It's hilarious, but it's also quite accurate in describing the possible > > problems. > > > > Considering that you may come home tired or distracted - or drunk, for > > some of us - or that your wife or child may forget that the system is > > armed - or that you may *think* it's armed when it's not, and trigger it > > by flipping it "off" - or that some system failure mode may trigger it - > > I suggest thinking long and hard before setting up automated systems > > that will result in serious bodily harm. > > In Australia, doing this *will* get you prosecuted if caught. You're not allowed to set > automated traps of any kind. In the US as well. It's just not a sensible thing to do - and even if the skipper in the story had been robbed, that still didn't make it any more sensible. > Then again, why bother here? Plenty of safe cruising from the trpoics to the cool > temperate regions. Yes indeed. In fact, as cruisers, we have a pretty decent source of info that's not generally available to most other people: the best reports of what's going on, in my experience, come from talking with several different cruisers who have just come from your next destination. Sea-fearing stories about a place tend to grow proportionally with distance, whether it's cultural or geographical. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11762|11745|2006-09-19 01:46:51|Paul J. Thompson|Pilothouse doors|Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a boatbuilding question? Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions and thoughts welcome. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11763|11745|2006-09-19 02:50:22|jim_both|Re: Pilothouse doors|My engine goes just inside the pilot house so I made the doors wide enough (20") to get my engine through. Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > boatbuilding question? > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > and thoughts welcome. > > -- > > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > | 11764|11712|2006-09-19 05:05:47|sae140|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Hi Sugar --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" wrote: > > Hi Colin, Time and time again, we as girls are told by the police to > FIGHT. We are told as girls that the odds of NOT being hurt or killed > is almost zero. We are shown on tv over and over again that when it > comes to the real bad guys (like the serial killers)....if you don't > try and fight, run, get away you won't be coming home. Perhaps you're extending my comments into areas I wasn't referring to ? I am not suggesting a passive response to *all* attackers in *all* situations - like knife attacks in parks etc: specifically I was commenting on an alternative strategy to adopt when faced with an armed assault upon a sailing boat out at sea. When arms are involved, a person's gender becomes irrelevant. There is a choice of approaches - but whether a person's response is active or passive there is no *guarantee* that you will survive. Life doesn't give such guarantees. > Oh and I > read earlier in this conversation where Seer used the scenario of > walking in a room like the cowboys, yes that is true. If you appear > to be tall, strong, sure of yourself, you are more apt to be left > alone. Seer walks in a room like he owns the place and people back > up and leave him alone. I understand Seer is coming over to visit Europe ? Well, I do hope that *anyone* visiting Europe will leave their cowboy attitude at home, as we have a much different culture over here. The cowboy's swaggering assertiveness and their reliance on guns to show manlyness and to settle arguments is the stuff of legend, and belongs in Hollywood where many of these myths originated. If you look at photographs of the authentic cowboy it is not that difficult to imagine that many of them will have lost their lives by being shot in the back during bar-room brawls, rather than experience the heroic John Wayne shoot-out scenario. Hollywood has a lot to answer for - the mythology of the gung-ho omnipotent G.I. doesn't translate across to the reality of armed conflict. So many US troops have returned home broken men after experiencing the brutal reality of warfare. News reporters show time and again confident assertive US troops prior to battle, only to be rendered seriously traumatised after receiving fire. Perhaps it is the spirit engendered in the US training camps, or perhaps the over- reliance on technical supremacy which is to blame for such a contrast between battlefield expectation and actuality. I don't think the armed forces of other countries suffer from quite the same degree of dislocation between the imagined scenario of killing and it's reality. There is a reason why so many who have experienced warfare first-hand do not talk about it - for it is impossible to communicate adequately with others who have not shared the same experiences, which are quite literally 'beyond words'. It is for this reason that I do not take too seriously the words of *anyone* (comment NOT directed soley at Seer) who talks so lightly about killing or the use of lethal weapons - for although any fool can kill at a distance, they have probably not experienced the traumatic reality of the taking of another's life at close quarters. Colin| 11765|11712|2006-09-19 07:58:19|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Didn't realize I was talking so 'lightly'. While technically I'm not really a cowboy, (I'm a horseman) I did spend a lot of time in my younger days on ranches working with both. I currently have around 36 horses which reminds me, Sugar? did you pick one out yet?:) People sometimes ask me about Viet Nam and the kind of things that one saw there.My standard reply was and remains, "The Disney Generation meets real life." Some handled it ok, some didn't. As I observed very early on, I've found that rural types, especially deer hunters/cattlemen etc. did on the whole much better. Its hard to generalize about the whole concept of combat fatigue, or the psych changes you go thru afterwards but I agree that many find it hard to speak about it, but many more do not. While still in training at Fort Benning, I got selected out of my training battalion (amongst others) to act as a waiter for a reunion of many of the surviving 3rd Army guys who served under Patton in WWII. Here we thought we were to be seen and not heard, standing at attention etc., but that's not what happened. To a man the old guys would call us over, make room at the table, hand us a beer and include us in the discussions which at my table went something along the line of "hey, you guys remember old Charlie what's his name? The skinny guy with the horrible accent from Southy? What ever happened to him? ". Then someone would reply, "Oh I saw him frozen curled up on the side of the road outside (some french town i don't remember) dunno what got him but it sure opened him up." Then they'd move on. Amongst their own criminals are quite vocal about their misdeeds, including murder and jokes about how this guy or that guy 'got it' echo thru every major 'big house' in the country. Dealing with trauma of whatever kind effects different people in different ways, spend some time in an emergency room trauma center and listen to a few of the jokes told by the doctors and nurses and you'll be absolutely shocked..for awhile.. then you just get used to it. As for american 'cowboys' coming to europe with attitude, lol, I wasn't the first by a long shot. Seems to me we've been there 'en masse' twice now and spent most of the last 60 years hanging around to make sure you guys didn't get closed out by the iron curtain. Take a trip up to the cemeteries in Normandy and elsewhere. There's a bunch of em there that pre-dated me and if they hadn't come, along with the Marshall Plan types who came after them, I suspect that a whole bunch of Europeans would be speaking a different language and living an entirely different kind of lifestyle. Given the current attitudes of a number of certain types of Europeans, one wonders if those lying there might wonder if perhaps they should NOT have come. My stepfather is one who did so and came back. A decorated 'cowboy' from Oklahoma who flew an ungodly number of missions over and back from England into France and Germany, and who lost his brother who did the same thing but was shot down and killed when the french collaborators turned him over to the Germans, well, I know what HE thinks... As for the John Wayne references, I can tell you first hand he was in person a wonderful guy, loyal to his friends, entirely friendly to all , and BIG LOL. He loved fishing, which is where I first met him, and he loved to drink :) He used his fame and image to give 'hope' to people during the dire years of the war, and not just to Americans, but to people around the world. While clearly NOT the character created for the silver screen, (he never killed an indian, fought or war, or punched out a Nazi) he was nonetheless a courageous man, loyal to a fault, and a good father and you do him disservice to dis his contribution to our time. As for US military training methods, I think you may be wrong here. First the world press, and our own for that matter, grossly exaggerates any perceived flaw in our military, or our personnel as in our current world america bashing is good press and sells lots of soap , snacks and feminine hygene products, or at least advertising for same :). The numbers of psych casualties are very small. As for our techniques leading to 'bad' attitude, heheh, In South Korean, for instance, an officer can physically attack an enlisted soldier and beat the snot out of him in the normal course of training. The Brits are quite famous for some of their questionable training techniques and have over the years experienced quite a number of deaths in training battalions. The Russians, well that's another story entirely, and what the Germans and Japanese did, well no need to discuss that much either. The French Foreign Legion training regimine is so strenuous you wonder how they ever lost a war.. I think there is a misperception of the supposed attitude of the American forces fostered by the press and the left all around the globe. With so many in our country obessessed (sp?>) with how we are 'liked or not liked' our toughest battles are always fought in the media, rarely the battlefield. Look at China for instance. The peace and freedom loving enlightened 'leader' and protector of the pacific basin in the future? I don't think so..yet we have a silly ass president go give a speech in Tienamin square in quid pro quo for campaign contributions and who apparently was more interested in what was under Monica's blue dress than catching a guy named Bin Laden...Now Europe, Canada and the Chinese LOVED that guy, and let me tell you, he's no 'cowboy'. Lastly, as for the myth of the gungho american GI, I wouldn't be so quick on the draw there Colin. News reporters have pretty much their own agenda LOL. Think about the guys you knew in high school who wanted to be journalists? Any conservative cowboys in that group? LOL. In fact, it is a very dangerous thing to underestimate the American soldier when they get angry. Ask the Brits, Germans, Japanese, Russians, and the Republican Guard among others even the Vietnamese. 50,000. compared to their several million casualties, well, not many free nations would sign up for that kind of 'military victory' and that was the "make love not war" generation..... And it is interesting to note that perhaps our best 'friends' today are not our former allies (with the exception of the Brits and the Aussies), but those same Germans and Japanese, and former members of the Soviet bloc. Currently even Vietnam is making a huge effort to establish trading ties as a precursor to deeper relationships in order to counter the moves of the nation they fear most, China. And for a Brit, a Frog, or a German, Japanese, Russian etc. all nations that in truth really DID try to enslave the world..to criticize us for trying to figure out a way to bring peace to the mideast (other than just handing the Israelis over to the lunatics with the dull knives)..well.as Steve Martin used to say....EXCUUUUUSSSSEEE MEEEEE :) To be sure we are not perfect, nor will we ever be. We are a relatively young nation still finding our way. We try and help those we perceive as friends, and oppose those we see as enemies and sometimes we make mistakes, but all in all I think the world has been better for our being here. Just remember, watch your tele closely, look at the faces of the "Americans".look at the names in an American phone book in any major city.and you'll notice something interesting..all colors, all races, all religions..you see, we are YOU!!!, just free and most of us still like it that way. As for 'close quarters', well sorry, but wrong. My first was as close as you can get. Lastly, regarding gender and tough situations, bullshit. Gender ALWAYS matters. Rape, and especially gang rape in especially the muslim world is insanely common, just not widely reported you know, free press and all that. Pakistan, under extreme pressure from the 'holy men' of islam, recently failed to pass a much needed piece of legislation intended to make it easier to prosecute rapists. Currently islamic law requires that an accusing woman present FOUR ADULT MALE WITNESSES WHO ACTUALLY WITNESSED THE ATTACK! can we all say "DUH!"? Just who in hell are those witnesses supposed to be? And all these western women who want to become muslims? jeez...Reminds me of the time in college I asked a flaming leftist communist party card holder sociology prof something along the lines of " but but but wait a minute..isn't the Soviet Union like the most repressive and conservative society/govt on the planet?"... You're right about one thing at least tho Colin. Somethings just cannot be explained to some people. It's like my grandfather used to say, "It's a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing. It almost never works out and it annoys the pig." s --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Hi Sugar > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, Time and time again, we as girls are told by the police > to > > FIGHT. We are told as girls that the odds of NOT being hurt or > killed > > is almost zero. We are shown on tv over and over again that when it > > comes to the real bad guys (like the serial killers)....if you don't > > try and fight, run, get away you won't be coming home. > > Perhaps you're extending my comments into areas I wasn't referring > to ? I am not suggesting a passive response to *all* attackers in > *all* situations - like knife attacks in parks etc: specifically I > was commenting on an alternative strategy to adopt when faced with an > armed assault upon a sailing boat out at sea. When arms are involved, > a person's gender becomes irrelevant. > There is a choice of approaches - but whether a person's response is > active or passive there is no *guarantee* that you will survive. Life > doesn't give such guarantees. > > > Oh and I > > read earlier in this conversation where Seer used the scenario of > > walking in a room like the cowboys, yes that is true. If you appear > > to be tall, strong, sure of yourself, you are more apt to be left > > alone. Seer walks in a room like he owns the place and people back > > up and leave him alone. > > > I understand Seer is coming over to visit Europe ? Well, I do hope > that *anyone* visiting Europe will leave their cowboy attitude at > home, as we have a much different culture over here. The cowboy's > swaggering assertiveness and their reliance on guns to show manlyness > and to settle arguments is the stuff of legend, and belongs in > Hollywood where many of these myths originated. If you look at > photographs of the authentic cowboy it is not that difficult to > imagine that many of them will have lost their lives by being shot in > the back during bar-room brawls, rather than experience the heroic > John Wayne shoot-out scenario. > > Hollywood has a lot to answer for - the mythology of the gung-ho > omnipotent G.I. doesn't translate across to the reality of armed > conflict. So many US troops have returned home broken men after > experiencing the brutal reality of warfare. News reporters show time > and again confident assertive US troops prior to battle, only to be > rendered seriously traumatised after receiving fire. Perhaps it is > the spirit engendered in the US training camps, or perhaps the over- > reliance on technical supremacy which is to blame for such a contrast > between battlefield expectation and actuality. I don't think the > armed forces of other countries suffer from quite the same degree of > dislocation between the imagined scenario of killing and it's > reality. > > There is a reason why so many who have experienced warfare first-hand > do not talk about it - for it is impossible to communicate adequately > with others who have not shared the same experiences, which are quite > literally 'beyond words'. It is for this reason that I do not take > too seriously the words of *anyone* (comment NOT directed soley at > Seer) who talks so lightly about killing or the use of lethal > weapons - for although any fool can kill at a distance, they have > probably not experienced the traumatic reality of the taking of > another's life at close quarters. > > Colin > | 11766|11712|2006-09-19 10:43:23|Michael Casling|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Thank you for the history lesson, it was not required. Neither were all the posts that led up to this last meesage. If the rest of the world concedes that the US saved everybody all by themselves, and is at the forefront of current foreign policy ?? Would that be sufficient to end this endless nonsense. During the 90s approximately 900 million folks became free to vote, earlier in the century about 600 million achieved the same. It was mostly done through diplomacy. There is no need for a retaliatory message. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: seeratlas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 4:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ? Didn't realize I was talking so 'lightly'. While technically I'm not really a cowboy, (I'm a horseman) I did spend a lot of time in my younger days on ranches working with both. I currently have around 36 horses which reminds me, Sugar? did you pick one out yet?:) People sometimes ask me about Viet Nam and the kind of things that one saw there.My standard reply was and remains, "The Disney Generation meets real life." Some handled it ok, some didn't. As I observed very early on, I've found that rural types, especially deer hunters/cattlemen etc. did on the whole much better. Its hard to generalize about the whole concept of combat fatigue, or the psych changes you go thru afterwards but I agree that many find it hard to speak about it, but many more do not. While still in training at Fort Benning, I got selected out of my training battalion (amongst others) to act as a waiter for a reunion of many of the surviving 3rd Army guys who served under Patton in WWII. Here we thought we were to be seen and not heard, standing at attention etc., but that's not what happened. To a man the old guys would call us over, make room at the table, hand us a beer and include us in the discussions which at my table went something along the line of "hey, you guys remember old Charlie what's his name? The skinny guy with the horrible accent from Southy? What ever happened to him? ". Then someone would reply, "Oh I saw him frozen curled up on the side of the road outside (some french town i don't remember) dunno what got him but it sure opened him up." Then they'd move on. Amongst their own criminals are quite vocal about their misdeeds, including murder and jokes about how this guy or that guy 'got it' echo thru every major 'big house' in the country. Dealing with trauma of whatever kind effects different people in different ways, spend some time in an emergency room trauma center and listen to a few of the jokes told by the doctors and nurses and you'll be absolutely shocked..for awhile.. then you just get used to it. As for american 'cowboys' coming to europe with attitude, lol, I wasn't the first by a long shot. Seems to me we've been there 'en masse' twice now and spent most of the last 60 years hanging around to make sure you guys didn't get closed out by the iron curtain. Take a trip up to the cemeteries in Normandy and elsewhere. There's a bunch of em there that pre-dated me and if they hadn't come, along with the Marshall Plan types who came after them, I suspect that a whole bunch of Europeans would be speaking a different language and living an entirely different kind of lifestyle. Given the current attitudes of a number of certain types of Europeans, one wonders if those lying there might wonder if perhaps they should NOT have come. My stepfather is one who did so and came back. A decorated 'cowboy' from Oklahoma who flew an ungodly number of missions over and back from England into France and Germany, and who lost his brother who did the same thing but was shot down and killed when the french collaborators turned him over to the Germans, well, I know what HE thinks... As for the John Wayne references, I can tell you first hand he was in person a wonderful guy, loyal to his friends, entirely friendly to all , and BIG LOL. He loved fishing, which is where I first met him, and he loved to drink :) He used his fame and image to give 'hope' to people during the dire years of the war, and not just to Americans, but to people around the world. While clearly NOT the character created for the silver screen, (he never killed an indian, fought or war, or punched out a Nazi) he was nonetheless a courageous man, loyal to a fault, and a good father and you do him disservice to dis his contribution to our time. As for US military training methods, I think you may be wrong here. First the world press, and our own for that matter, grossly exaggerates any perceived flaw in our military, or our personnel as in our current world america bashing is good press and sells lots of soap , snacks and feminine hygene products, or at least advertising for same :). The numbers of psych casualties are very small. As for our techniques leading to 'bad' attitude, heheh, In South Korean, for instance, an officer can physically attack an enlisted soldier and beat the snot out of him in the normal course of training. The Brits are quite famous for some of their questionable training techniques and have over the years experienced quite a number of deaths in training battalions. The Russians, well that's another story entirely, and what the Germans and Japanese did, well no need to discuss that much either. The French Foreign Legion training regimine is so strenuous you wonder how they ever lost a war.. I think there is a misperception of the supposed attitude of the American forces fostered by the press and the left all around the globe. With so many in our country obessessed (sp?>) with how we are 'liked or not liked' our toughest battles are always fought in the media, rarely the battlefield. Look at China for instance. The peace and freedom loving enlightened 'leader' and protector of the pacific basin in the future? I don't think so..yet we have a silly ass president go give a speech in Tienamin square in quid pro quo for campaign contributions and who apparently was more interested in what was under Monica's blue dress than catching a guy named Bin Laden...Now Europe, Canada and the Chinese LOVED that guy, and let me tell you, he's no 'cowboy'. Lastly, as for the myth of the gungho american GI, I wouldn't be so quick on the draw there Colin. News reporters have pretty much their own agenda LOL. Think about the guys you knew in high school who wanted to be journalists? Any conservative cowboys in that group? LOL. In fact, it is a very dangerous thing to underestimate the American soldier when they get angry. Ask the Brits, Germans, Japanese, Russians, and the Republican Guard among others even the Vietnamese. 50,000. compared to their several million casualties, well, not many free nations would sign up for that kind of 'military victory' and that was the "make love not war" generation..... And it is interesting to note that perhaps our best 'friends' today are not our former allies (with the exception of the Brits and the Aussies), but those same Germans and Japanese, and former members of the Soviet bloc. Currently even Vietnam is making a huge effort to establish trading ties as a precursor to deeper relationships in order to counter the moves of the nation they fear most, China. And for a Brit, a Frog, or a German, Japanese, Russian etc. all nations that in truth really DID try to enslave the world..to criticize us for trying to figure out a way to bring peace to the mideast (other than just handing the Israelis over to the lunatics with the dull knives)..well.as Steve Martin used to say....EXCUUUUUSSSSEEE MEEEEE :) To be sure we are not perfect, nor will we ever be. We are a relatively young nation still finding our way. We try and help those we perceive as friends, and oppose those we see as enemies and sometimes we make mistakes, but all in all I think the world has been better for our being here. Just remember, watch your tele closely, look at the faces of the "Americans".look at the names in an American phone book in any major city.and you'll notice something interesting..all colors, all races, all religions..you see, we are YOU!!!, just free and most of us still like it that way. As for 'close quarters', well sorry, but wrong. My first was as close as you can get. Lastly, regarding gender and tough situations, bullshit. Gender ALWAYS matters. Rape, and especially gang rape in especially the muslim world is insanely common, just not widely reported you know, free press and all that. Pakistan, under extreme pressure from the 'holy men' of islam, recently failed to pass a much needed piece of legislation intended to make it easier to prosecute rapists. Currently islamic law requires that an accusing woman present FOUR ADULT MALE WITNESSES WHO ACTUALLY WITNESSED THE ATTACK! can we all say "DUH!"? Just who in hell are those witnesses supposed to be? And all these western women who want to become muslims? jeez...Reminds me of the time in college I asked a flaming leftist communist party card holder sociology prof something along the lines of " but but but wait a minute..isn't the Soviet Union like the most repressive and conservative society/govt on the planet?"... You're right about one thing at least tho Colin. Somethings just cannot be explained to some people. It's like my grandfather used to say, "It's a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing. It almost never works out and it annoys the pig." s --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Hi Sugar > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, Time and time again, we as girls are told by the police > to > > FIGHT. We are told as girls that the odds of NOT being hurt or > killed > > is almost zero. We are shown on tv over and over again that when it > > comes to the real bad guys (like the serial killers)....if you don't > > try and fight, run, get away you won't be coming home. > > Perhaps you're extending my comments into areas I wasn't referring > to ? I am not suggesting a passive response to *all* attackers in > *all* situations - like knife attacks in parks etc: specifically I > was commenting on an alternative strategy to adopt when faced with an > armed assault upon a sailing boat out at sea. When arms are involved, > a person's gender becomes irrelevant. > There is a choice of approaches - but whether a person's response is > active or passive there is no *guarantee* that you will survive. Life > doesn't give such guarantees. > > > Oh and I > > read earlier in this conversation where Seer used the scenario of > > walking in a room like the cowboys, yes that is true. If you appear > > to be tall, strong, sure of yourself, you are more apt to be left > > alone. Seer walks in a room like he owns the place and people back > > up and leave him alone. > > > I understand Seer is coming over to visit Europe ? Well, I do hope > that *anyone* visiting Europe will leave their cowboy attitude at > home, as we have a much different culture over here. The cowboy's > swaggering assertiveness and their reliance on guns to show manlyness > and to settle arguments is the stuff of legend, and belongs in > Hollywood where many of these myths originated. If you look at > photographs of the authentic cowboy it is not that difficult to > imagine that many of them will have lost their lives by being shot in > the back during bar-room brawls, rather than experience the heroic > John Wayne shoot-out scenario. > > Hollywood has a lot to answer for - the mythology of the gung-ho > omnipotent G.I. doesn't translate across to the reality of armed > conflict. So many US troops have returned home broken men after > experiencing the brutal reality of warfare. News reporters show time > and again confident assertive US troops prior to battle, only to be > rendered seriously traumatised after receiving fire. Perhaps it is > the spirit engendered in the US training camps, or perhaps the over- > reliance on technical supremacy which is to blame for such a contrast > between battlefield expectation and actuality. I don't think the > armed forces of other countries suffer from quite the same degree of > dislocation between the imagined scenario of killing and it's > reality. > > There is a reason why so many who have experienced warfare first-hand > do not talk about it - for it is impossible to communicate adequately > with others who have not shared the same experiences, which are quite > literally 'beyond words'. It is for this reason that I do not take > too seriously the words of *anyone* (comment NOT directed soley at > Seer) who talks so lightly about killing or the use of lethal > weapons - for although any fool can kill at a distance, they have > probably not experienced the traumatic reality of the taking of > another's life at close quarters. > > Colin > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11767|11767|2006-09-19 10:49:26|audeojude|Self Defence and Cruising|Gentlemen, This thread has been entertaining.. Lots of good things have been discussed. However much of it has dropped into back and forth bashing. I have noticed a drop in posts on other subjects by many members as this subject has heated up with a few members dominating the topic. Lets get back to building and talking about building boats. I think this is a pertinate subject in building your boat but lets move from the political and personal beliefs to the hard engineering of these systems. I would ask that if you find something someone is building into their boat in this arena stupid from your philosophical perspective that you simply hold your tounge. We have already heard your view points. and you can build your boat how you like. On the other hand if you have pertinate advice from a systems or implimentation standpoint then I at least would like to hear about it on the list. I have waited for this topic to mellow for a couple weeks now and it seems to be philosophically self sustaining due to the personal energy a few of us have on it. I personally am getting bored with it. If you really want to argue out ghandi vs gi-Joe or the world vs america lets start a self defence while cruising group and have a go at it there.| 11768|11712|2006-09-19 12:25:17|seeratlas|Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ?|Which diplomacy was that Michael? "Peace in our Time"? or Reagan's "you want an arms race? I'll show you an arm's race"? sheesh. and your right, no response *should* have been necessary. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Thank you for the history lesson, it was not required. > Neither were all the posts that led up to this last meesage. > If the rest of the world concedes that the US saved everybody all by themselves, and is at the forefront of current foreign policy ?? > Would that be sufficient to end this endless nonsense. > During the 90s approximately 900 million folks became free to vote, earlier in the century about 600 million achieved the same. > It was mostly done through diplomacy. There is no need for a retaliatory message. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: seeratlas > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 4:46 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: So you think you know about electricity ... ? > > > Didn't realize I was talking so 'lightly'. While technically I'm not > really a cowboy, (I'm a horseman) I did spend a lot of time in my > younger days on ranches working with both. I currently have around 36 > horses which reminds me, Sugar? did you pick one out yet?:) > > People sometimes ask me about Viet Nam and the kind of things that one > saw there.My standard reply was and remains, "The Disney Generation > meets real life." Some handled it ok, some didn't. As I observed very > early on, I've found that rural types, especially deer > hunters/cattlemen etc. did on the whole much better. Its hard to > generalize about the whole concept of combat fatigue, or the psych > changes you go thru afterwards but I agree that many find it hard to > speak about it, but many more do not. While still in training at Fort > Benning, I got selected out of my training battalion (amongst others) > to act as a waiter for a reunion of many of the surviving 3rd Army > guys who served under Patton in WWII. Here we thought we were to be > seen and not heard, standing at attention etc., but that's not what > happened. To a man the old guys would call us over, make room at the > table, hand us a beer and include us in the discussions which at my > table went something along the line of "hey, you guys remember old > Charlie what's his name? The skinny guy with the horrible accent from > Southy? What ever happened to him? ". Then someone would reply, "Oh I > saw him frozen curled up on the side of the road outside (some french > town i don't remember) dunno what got him but it sure opened him up." > Then they'd move on. > > Amongst their own criminals are quite vocal about their misdeeds, > including murder and jokes about how this guy or that guy 'got it' > echo thru every major 'big house' in the country. > > Dealing with trauma of whatever kind effects different people in > different ways, spend some time in an emergency room trauma center and > listen to a few of the jokes told by the doctors and nurses and you'll > be absolutely shocked..for awhile.. then you just get used to it. > > As for american 'cowboys' coming to europe with attitude, lol, I > wasn't the first by a long shot. Seems to me we've been there 'en > masse' twice now and spent most of the last 60 years hanging around to > make sure you guys didn't get closed out by the iron curtain. Take a > trip up to the cemeteries in Normandy and elsewhere. There's a bunch > of em there that pre-dated me and if they hadn't come, along with the > Marshall Plan types who came after them, I suspect that a whole bunch > of Europeans would be speaking a different language and living an > entirely different kind of lifestyle. Given the current attitudes of > a number of certain types of Europeans, one wonders if those lying > there might wonder if perhaps they should NOT have come. My > stepfather is one who did so and came back. A decorated 'cowboy' from > Oklahoma who flew an ungodly number of missions over and back from > England into France and Germany, and who lost his brother who did the > same thing but was shot down and killed when the french collaborators > turned him over to the Germans, well, I know what HE thinks... > > As for the John Wayne references, I can tell you first hand he was in > person a wonderful guy, loyal to his friends, entirely friendly to all > , and BIG LOL. He loved fishing, which is where I first met him, and > he loved to drink :) He used his fame and image to give 'hope' to > people during the dire years of the war, and not just to Americans, > but to people around the world. While clearly NOT the character > created for the silver screen, (he never killed an indian, fought or > war, or punched out a Nazi) he was nonetheless a courageous man, loyal > to a fault, and a good father and you do him disservice to dis his > contribution to our time. > > As for US military training methods, I think you may be wrong here. > First the world press, and our own for that matter, grossly > exaggerates any perceived flaw in our military, or our personnel as in > our current world america bashing is good press and sells lots of soap > , snacks and feminine hygene products, or at least advertising for > same :). The numbers of psych casualties are very small. As for our > techniques leading to 'bad' attitude, heheh, In South Korean, for > instance, an officer can physically attack an enlisted soldier and > beat the snot out of him in the normal course of training. The Brits > are quite famous for some of their questionable training techniques > and have over the years experienced quite a number of deaths in > training battalions. The Russians, well that's another story > entirely, and what the Germans and Japanese did, well no need to > discuss that much either. The French Foreign Legion training regimine > is so strenuous you wonder how they ever lost a war.. I think there > is a misperception of the supposed attitude of the American forces > fostered by the press and the left all around the globe. With so many > in our country obessessed (sp?>) with how we are 'liked or not liked' > our toughest battles are always fought in the media, rarely the > battlefield. Look at China for instance. The peace and freedom > loving enlightened 'leader' and protector of the pacific basin in the > future? I don't think so..yet we have a silly ass president go give a > speech in Tienamin square in quid pro quo for campaign contributions > and who apparently was more interested in what was under Monica's blue > dress than catching a guy named Bin Laden...Now Europe, Canada and the > Chinese LOVED that guy, and let me tell you, he's no 'cowboy'. > > Lastly, as for the myth of the gungho american GI, I wouldn't be so > quick on the draw there Colin. News reporters have pretty much their > own agenda LOL. Think about the guys you knew in high school who > wanted to be journalists? Any conservative cowboys in that group? LOL. > In fact, it is a very dangerous thing to underestimate the American > soldier when they get angry. Ask the Brits, Germans, Japanese, > Russians, and the Republican Guard among others even the Vietnamese. > 50,000. compared to their several million casualties, well, not many > free nations would sign up for that kind of 'military victory' and > that was the "make love not war" generation..... And it is > interesting to note that perhaps our best 'friends' today are not our > former allies (with the exception of the Brits and the Aussies), but > those same Germans and Japanese, and former members of the Soviet > bloc. Currently even Vietnam is making a huge effort to establish > trading ties as a precursor to deeper relationships in order to > counter the moves of the nation they fear most, China. And for a > Brit, a Frog, or a German, Japanese, Russian etc. all nations that in > truth really DID try to enslave the world..to criticize us for trying > to figure out a way to bring peace to the mideast (other than just > handing the Israelis over to the lunatics with the dull > knives)..well.as Steve Martin used to say....EXCUUUUUSSSSEEE MEEEEE :) > > To be sure we are not perfect, nor will we ever be. We are a > relatively young nation still finding our way. We try and help those > we perceive as friends, and oppose those we see as enemies and > sometimes we make mistakes, but all in all I think the world has been > better for our being here. Just remember, watch your tele closely, > look at the faces of the "Americans".look at the names in an American > phone book in any major city.and you'll notice something > interesting..all colors, all races, all religions..you see, we are > YOU!!!, just free and most of us still like it that way. > > As for 'close quarters', well sorry, but wrong. My first was as close > as you can get. > > Lastly, regarding gender and tough situations, bullshit. Gender ALWAYS > matters. Rape, and especially gang rape in especially the muslim > world is insanely common, just not widely reported you know, free > press and all that. Pakistan, under extreme pressure from the 'holy > men' of islam, recently failed to pass a much needed piece of > legislation intended to make it easier to prosecute rapists. > Currently islamic law requires that an accusing woman present FOUR > ADULT MALE WITNESSES WHO ACTUALLY WITNESSED THE ATTACK! can we all say > "DUH!"? Just who in hell are those witnesses supposed to be? And all > these western women who want to become muslims? jeez...Reminds me of > the time in college I asked a flaming leftist communist party card > holder sociology prof something along the lines of " but but but wait > a minute..isn't the Soviet Union like the most repressive and > conservative society/govt on the planet?"... > > You're right about one thing at least tho Colin. Somethings just > cannot be explained to some people. It's like my grandfather used to > say, "It's a lot like trying to teach a pig to sing. It almost never > works out and it annoys the pig." > > s > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > Hi Sugar > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Sugar" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Colin, Time and time again, we as girls are told by the police > > to > > > FIGHT. We are told as girls that the odds of NOT being hurt or > > killed > > > is almost zero. We are shown on tv over and over again that when it > > > comes to the real bad guys (like the serial killers)....if you don't > > > try and fight, run, get away you won't be coming home. > > > > Perhaps you're extending my comments into areas I wasn't referring > > to ? I am not suggesting a passive response to *all* attackers in > > *all* situations - like knife attacks in parks etc: specifically I > > was commenting on an alternative strategy to adopt when faced with an > > armed assault upon a sailing boat out at sea. When arms are involved, > > a person's gender becomes irrelevant. > > There is a choice of approaches - but whether a person's response is > > active or passive there is no *guarantee* that you will survive. Life > > doesn't give such guarantees. > > > > > Oh and I > > > read earlier in this conversation where Seer used the scenario of > > > walking in a room like the cowboys, yes that is true. If you appear > > > to be tall, strong, sure of yourself, you are more apt to be left > > > alone. Seer walks in a room like he owns the place and people back > > > up and leave him alone. > > > > > > I understand Seer is coming over to visit Europe ? Well, I do hope > > that *anyone* visiting Europe will leave their cowboy attitude at > > home, as we have a much different culture over here. The cowboy's > > swaggering assertiveness and their reliance on guns to show manlyness > > and to settle arguments is the stuff of legend, and belongs in > > Hollywood where many of these myths originated. If you look at > > photographs of the authentic cowboy it is not that difficult to > > imagine that many of them will have lost their lives by being shot in > > the back during bar-room brawls, rather than experience the heroic > > John Wayne shoot-out scenario. > > > > Hollywood has a lot to answer for - the mythology of the gung-ho > > omnipotent G.I. doesn't translate across to the reality of armed > > conflict. So many US troops have returned home broken men after > > experiencing the brutal reality of warfare. News reporters show time > > and again confident assertive US troops prior to battle, only to be > > rendered seriously traumatised after receiving fire. Perhaps it is > > the spirit engendered in the US training camps, or perhaps the over- > > reliance on technical supremacy which is to blame for such a contrast > > between battlefield expectation and actuality. I don't think the > > armed forces of other countries suffer from quite the same degree of > > dislocation between the imagined scenario of killing and it's > > reality. > > > > There is a reason why so many who have experienced warfare first-hand > > do not talk about it - for it is impossible to communicate adequately > > with others who have not shared the same experiences, which are quite > > literally 'beyond words'. It is for this reason that I do not take > > too seriously the words of *anyone* (comment NOT directed soley at > > Seer) who talks so lightly about killing or the use of lethal > > weapons - for although any fool can kill at a distance, they have > > probably not experienced the traumatic reality of the taking of > > another's life at close quarters. > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11769|11767|2006-09-19 12:35:26|seeratlas|Re: Self Defence and Cruising|Acknowledged and agreed. Back to boats. I'm done tho I will answer those inquiries I've received in priv email. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Gentlemen, > This thread has been entertaining.. Lots of good things have been > discussed. However much of it has dropped into back and forth bashing. > I have noticed a drop in posts on other subjects by many members as > this subject has heated up with a few members dominating the topic. > Lets get back to building and talking about building boats. > > I think this is a pertinate subject in building your boat but lets > move from the political and personal beliefs to the hard engineering > of these systems. I would ask that if you find something someone is > building into their boat in this arena stupid from your philosophical > perspective that you simply hold your tounge. We have already heard > your view points. and you can build your boat how you like. On the > other hand if you have pertinate advice from a systems or > implimentation standpoint then I at least would like to hear about it > on the list. > > I have waited for this topic to mellow for a couple weeks now and it > seems to be philosophically self sustaining due to the personal energy > a few of us have on it. I personally am getting bored with it. > > If you really want to argue out ghandi vs gi-Joe or the world vs > america lets start a self defence while cruising group and have a go > at it there. > | 11770|11767|2006-09-19 12:48:23|Michael Casling|Re: Self Defence and Cruising|I am in agreement with the post from audeojude. Although not a boat building subject but boating anyway, we have had a successful year racing the 28 foot plastic boat, and I have been able to get many hours ( days ) and many miles cruising on my own boat. Later this week I will launch my smaller 22 foot boat. This one is for the Wednesday night races, which is basically an excuse to go sailing. In the meantime I have scaled back my farming activities and moved into a condo. This paves the way for walking out the door and going sailing. If not in a larger ship, then I will take my current moderate displacement 28 foot boat to the ocean. Work on the trailer and truck will take place this winter. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: audeojude To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Self Defence and Cruising Gentlemen, This thread has been entertaining.. Lots of good things have been discussed. However much of it has dropped into back and forth bashing. I have noticed a drop in posts on other subjects by many members as this subject has heated up with a few members dominating the topic. Lets get back to building and talking about building boats. I think this is a pertinate subject in building your boat but lets move from the political and personal beliefs to the hard engineering of these systems. I would ask that if you find something someone is building into their boat in this arena stupid from your philosophical perspective that you simply hold your tounge. We have already heard your view points. and you can build your boat how you like. On the other hand if you have pertinate advice from a systems or implimentation standpoint then I at least would like to hear about it on the list. I have waited for this topic to mellow for a couple weeks now and it seems to be philosophically self sustaining due to the personal energy a few of us have on it. I personally am getting bored with it. If you really want to argue out ghandi vs gi-Joe or the world vs america lets start a self defence while cruising group and have a go at it there. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11771|11767|2006-09-19 16:21:26|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Self Defence and Cruising|And I can second the sentiments. This topic has gone on long enough and the two sides of the issue are never going to be reconciled. Over and above that it has nothing to do with boatbuilding. I would still seriously like some input as to my original post. Re - > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > boatbuilding question? > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > and thoughts welcome. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) Michael Casling wrote: > > I am in agreement with the post from audeojude. > Although not a boat building subject but boating anyway, we have had a > successful year racing the 28 foot plastic boat, and I have been able > to get many hours ( days ) and many miles cruising on my own boat. > Later this week I will launch my smaller 22 foot boat. This one is for > the Wednesday night races, which is basically an excuse to go sailing. > In the meantime I have scaled back my farming activities and moved > into a condo. This paves the way for walking out the door and going > sailing. If not in a larger ship, then I will take my current moderate > displacement 28 foot boat to the ocean. > Work on the trailer and truck will take place this winter. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: audeojude > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:40 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Self Defence and Cruising > > Gentlemen, > This thread has been entertaining.. Lots of good things have been > discussed. However much of it has dropped into back and forth bashing. > I have noticed a drop in posts on other subjects by many members as > this subject has heated up with a few members dominating the topic. > Lets get back to building and talking about building boats. > > I think this is a pertinate subject in building your boat but lets > move from the political and personal beliefs to the hard engineering > of these systems. I would ask that if you find something someone is > building into their boat in this arena stupid from your philosophical > perspective that you simply hold your tounge. We have already heard > your view points. and you can build your boat how you like. On the > other hand if you have pertinate advice from a systems or > implimentation standpoint then I at least would like to hear about it > on the list. > > I have waited for this topic to mellow for a couple weeks now and it > seems to be philosophically self sustaining due to the personal energy > a few of us have on it. I personally am getting bored with it. > > If you really want to argue out ghandi vs gi-Joe or the world vs > america lets start a self defence while cruising group and have a go > at it there. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11772|11767|2006-09-19 17:12:21|Alex Christie|back to the drawing board|Yep, probably time to bring things back to the nuts and bolts of origami-style boats! I haven't heard anything from Gerd lately on his trawler design -- anyone know if it's being built? Alex| 11773|11767|2006-09-19 17:42:02|kingsknight4life|Re: Self Defence and Cruising|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > And I can second the sentiments. This topic has gone on long enough and > the two sides of the issue are never going to be reconciled. Over and > above that it has nothing to do with boatbuilding. I would still > seriously like some input as to my original post. Re - > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > > boatbuilding question? > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > > and thoughts welcome. > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson I think Audeojude has hit the nail on the head. Lets just agree to disagree. :) Very well put Scott. Paul I think your door is big enough, although I'm prety sure mine is around 22" wide. I'll measure and get back to you. I'd make my door as big as possible while still leaving enough room around the door opening to weld on things like latches, hinges etc. My opening is not quite large enough to fit a 4x8' sheet of plywood through (diagonally) so I'd go for larger over smaller, within reason of course. The aluminum hatch is strong enough to cover wide openings. Rowland| 11774|11745|2006-09-19 18:49:31|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Pilothouse doors|Hi Jim and Rowland, Thanks for your input. Yes, for me to, width is not a problem and Jim's point about the engine is very valid. My concern is hight, I am trying to keep the pilothouse as low as possible so I am trying to keep the door low. Is 800mm (32in) too low? Or can I get away with it? I will slope the door 25 to 30 degrees. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) kingsknight4life wrote: > Paul I think your door is big enough, although I'm prety sure mine > is around 22" wide. I'll measure and get back to you. I'd make my > door as big as possible while still leaving enough room around the > door opening to weld on things like latches, hinges etc. My opening > is not quite large enough to fit a 4x8' sheet of plywood through > (diagonally) so I'd go for larger over smaller, within reason of > course. The aluminum hatch is strong enough to cover wide openings. > Rowland jim_both wrote: > > My engine goes just inside the pilot house so I made the doors wide > enough (20") to get my engine through. > > Cheers, Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > > > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and > answer a > > boatbuilding question? > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? > Opinions > > and thoughts welcome. > > > > -- > > > > Regards, > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > > | 11775|11767|2006-09-19 19:06:20|seeratlas|Re: Self Defence and Cruising|Paul, regarding your hatchway, like a lot of things, if was up to me the answer would be 'depends'. As was pointed out, if you're engine can't be removed by pulling up the cockpit floor, then a hatch big enough to get it in and out makes a lot of sense. How big that is depends on your engine. Once that consideration is satisfied, then I would look at the size of yourself, crew, and expected guests (nobody plans for Kareem Abdul Jabbar to show up, except on his own boat :) To figure that one out depends on the angle of the hatch and bulkhead and the nature of your 'staircase'. If you're going to have a large angle from vertical, the hatch can be shorter and incorporate a stepover to keep errant water from running into the boat each time you open it. If the bulkhead is more vertical it must be larger unless you're a gymnast. All of the foregoing assumes that you're using a simple swing open, swing close hatch with no top horizonatal component. If you're going with a version of the sliding top, drop board system then entirely different dimensions would apply. In any event, the foregoing are my take on it, and oh, btw, as Gord's boat make clear to me, you're not limited to a strict rectangle either. If the engine requires a bulge in one area, then some other shape may be appropriate. Maybe Yves, Gerd, 'Old' Ben, Brent or someone else with commercial boat building experience can give you some std. dimensions to think about. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > And I can second the sentiments. This topic has gone on long enough and > the two sides of the issue are never going to be reconciled. Over and > above that it has nothing to do with boatbuilding. I would still > seriously like some input as to my original post. Re - > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > > boatbuilding question? > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > > and thoughts welcome. > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > > Michael Casling wrote: > > > > I am in agreement with the post from audeojude. > > Although not a boat building subject but boating anyway, we have had a > > successful year racing the 28 foot plastic boat, and I have been able > > to get many hours ( days ) and many miles cruising on my own boat. > > Later this week I will launch my smaller 22 foot boat. This one is for > > the Wednesday night races, which is basically an excuse to go sailing. > > In the meantime I have scaled back my farming activities and moved > > into a condo. This paves the way for walking out the door and going > > sailing. If not in a larger ship, then I will take my current moderate > > displacement 28 foot boat to the ocean. > > Work on the trailer and truck will take place this winter. > > > > Michael > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: audeojude > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:40 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Self Defence and Cruising > > > > Gentlemen, > > This thread has been entertaining.. Lots of good things have been > > discussed. However much of it has dropped into back and forth bashing. > > I have noticed a drop in posts on other subjects by many members as > > this subject has heated up with a few members dominating the topic. > > Lets get back to building and talking about building boats. > > > > I think this is a pertinate subject in building your boat but lets > > move from the political and personal beliefs to the hard engineering > > of these systems. I would ask that if you find something someone is > > building into their boat in this arena stupid from your philosophical > > perspective that you simply hold your tounge. We have already heard > > your view points. and you can build your boat how you like. On the > > other hand if you have pertinate advice from a systems or > > implimentation standpoint then I at least would like to hear about it > > on the list. > > > > I have waited for this topic to mellow for a couple weeks now and it > > seems to be philosophically self sustaining due to the personal energy > > a few of us have on it. I personally am getting bored with it. > > > > If you really want to argue out ghandi vs gi-Joe or the world vs > > america lets start a self defence while cruising group and have a go > > at it there. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > | 11776|11710|2006-09-19 19:11:41|woodcraftssuch|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > I note that the post you cite came _after_ you made that claim - but > thanks for taking the time to look it up. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > Not to beat a dead horse to death :), but oh, contraire! Sam http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11726 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11729| 11777|11745|2006-09-19 19:24:12|seeratlas|Re: Pilothouse doors|Regarding height, one other thing I forgot to mention was that a "bump" can be built into the top of the pilot house to allow a taller hatch. if done in proportion it can actually look quite good seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Hi Jim and Rowland, > > Thanks for your input. Yes, for me to, width is not a problem and Jim's > point about the engine is very valid. My concern is hight, I am trying > to keep the pilothouse as low as possible so I am trying to keep the > door low. Is 800mm (32in) too low? Or can I get away with it? I will > slope the door 25 to 30 degrees. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > Paul I think your door is big enough, although I'm prety sure mine > > is around 22" wide. I'll measure and get back to you. I'd make my > > door as big as possible while still leaving enough room around the > > door opening to weld on things like latches, hinges etc. My opening > > is not quite large enough to fit a 4x8' sheet of plywood through > > (diagonally) so I'd go for larger over smaller, within reason of > > course. The aluminum hatch is strong enough to cover wide openings. > > Rowland > > > jim_both wrote: > > > > My engine goes just inside the pilot house so I made the doors wide > > enough (20") to get my engine through. > > > > Cheers, Jim > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and > > answer a > > > boatbuilding question? > > > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? > > Opinions > > > and thoughts welcome. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > > > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > > > > > > | 11778|11745|2006-09-19 20:22:29|tom|Re: Pilothouse doors|Hello Paul 32" tall even at a 25 degrees is pretty short, On my 26 its around 27" tall but thats starting just above the top of the foot well and 25 degree angle, not near enough so I cut the cabin top 18" forward now its easy climbing in and out . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul J. Thompson" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse doors > Hi Jim and Rowland, > > Thanks for your input. Yes, for me to, width is not a problem and Jim's > point about the engine is very valid. My concern is hight, I am trying > to keep the pilothouse as low as possible so I am trying to keep the > door low. Is 800mm (32in) too low? Or can I get away with it? I will > slope the door 25 to 30 degrees. > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > > kingsknight4life wrote: >> Paul I think your door is big enough, although I'm prety sure mine >> is around 22" wide. I'll measure and get back to you. I'd make my >> door as big as possible while still leaving enough room around the >> door opening to weld on things like latches, hinges etc. My opening >> is not quite large enough to fit a 4x8' sheet of plywood through >> (diagonally) so I'd go for larger over smaller, within reason of >> course. The aluminum hatch is strong enough to cover wide openings. >> Rowland > > > jim_both wrote: >> >> My engine goes just inside the pilot house so I made the doors wide >> enough (20") to get my engine through. >> >> Cheers, Jim >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> , "Paul J. Thompson" >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and >> answer a >> > boatbuilding question? >> > >> > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? >> Opinions >> > and thoughts welcome. >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Paul J. Thompson >> > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. >> > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) >> > >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 11779|11767|2006-09-19 20:23:16|kingsknight4life|Re: Self Defence and Cruising|> > "Paul I think your door is big enough, although I'm prety sure mine > is around 22" wide. I'll measure and get back to you." Paul my door is 45.5 x 22 inches wide. RH| 11780|11710|2006-09-19 21:25:17|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 10:20:54PM -0000, woodcraftssuch wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > I note that the post you cite came _after_ you made that claim - but > > thanks for taking the time to look it up. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > Not to beat a dead horse to death :), but oh, contraire! Sam > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11726 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11729 My mistake, it seems - sorry about that! I received them in the opposite order... a pretty common scenario if you're not reading them via Yahoo's web interface, I find. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11781|11710|2006-09-19 22:02:51|Michael Casling|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|I got a reply from Seer to one of my posts before I received my own post, and sometimes I get double posts. It confuses me. Not to worry. Going back to the hatch size. That was a bright light who mentioned the engine may need to come out. I have done this on my boat and it just fits. I remembered this when adding insulation to the fridge which sits on the cabin sole. The fridge just fits through the hole as well. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin A. Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 10:20:54PM -0000, woodcraftssuch wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > I note that the post you cite came _after_ you made that claim - but > > thanks for taking the time to look it up. > > > > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > Not to beat a dead horse to death :), but oh, contraire! Sam > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11726 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/11729 My mistake, it seems - sorry about that! I received them in the opposite order... a pretty common scenario if you're not reading them via Yahoo's web interface, I find. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11782|11745|2006-09-19 22:39:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: Pilothouse doors|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > boatbuilding question? > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > and thoughts welcome. Memory says that 22" wide is the recommended minimum. PDW| 11783|11745|2006-09-19 22:47:37|peter_d_wiley|Re: Pitfalls of security (Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Deadliest traps I ever saw were on aussie beaches, the "White > Pointers" would get you every time :) Depends. They're certainly around near where I live but since I don't like diving in 16C water (or cooler) I don't care. In the tropical regions you generally don't get the great whites, and realistically they're pretty rare sharks. I'm more concerned about tiger sharks in warm waters; they're aggressive, eat almost anything, grow large and have large jaws for their body size. > But the biggest baddest missing teeth, scarred face and broken nosed > aussies would look me dead in the eye, throw their shoulders back, > walk straight up to my face and hand me something called a 'Darwin > Stubbie' which WILL knock the average t-totaler on his arse:) Good > times there, and good memories. Yep, know what you mean. I worked & sailed out of Darwin quite a lot back in the 80s. We used to decide on the beer rations by a simple formula. Number of days at sea divided by 2 equals number of 24 can slabs per person. These days I'd be bloated & asleep before I got half done. PDW| 11784|11710|2006-09-19 23:04:57|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 06:45:25PM -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > I got a reply from Seer to one of my posts before I received my own > post, and sometimes I get double posts. > It confuses me. Not to worry. > Going back to the hatch size. That was a bright light who mentioned > the engine may need to come out. I have done this on my boat and it > just fits. I remembered this when adding insulation to the fridge > which sits on the cabin sole. The fridge just fits through the hole as > well. Something else to consider is a bolt-on semi-permanent 'frame' around the hatch. For usual access, you'd use the hatch; for engine removal, etc., you'd unbolt the frame. I haven't seen anything like this before, but it seems like it should work. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11785|11745|2006-09-20 05:34:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pilothouse doors|Paul, I often mock up bits out of pallet wood to see how a design works. It doesn't take long and it is very useful to see things in three dimensions and actually be in the design to see how one and ones wife fit into it, and of course to get the Feng Shui correct. I have designed my pilothouse opening so that I can lift the engine out. At the moment I have not welded in the cockpit floor and bridge deck ( I think that is what the bottom step of the pilothouse companionway is called)as it makes it so much easier to work on the engine bits and to get lumber in to fit out the interior. We have bought an old leather clad sofa and we even got that in to see how it looks before taking it out and "marinising" the frame, i.e. replacing the fibreboard bits with WPB plywood. I intend making the bridge deck higher than the deck so that if the boat is swamped water is less likely to sweep down the companionway when the door is opened. Regards, Ted| 11786|11745|2006-09-20 06:48:44|David A. Frantz|Re: Pilothouse doors|The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to narrow. When you think aobut a hatch way especially this one you really need to design for the items that are most likely to be going through that hatch way. So from my perspective that means measuring the width of your shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 inches at the extreme minimal end. As for hieght as others have mentioned there is or are a lot of variables here. Ones that I haven't seen mentioned is the age and hieght of the user. Like it or not age does impact your perspective and what was easy to do at 20 takes way to much effort at 50. Being tall and stiff I'd want to make sure that clearance is not a problem. Considering the effort and time required to implement such entry way I'd suggest a mock up first. The mock up doesn;t have to be fancy a step ladder and some cardboard cut outs might take care of that. Dave peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > > > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > > boatbuilding question? > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > > and thoughts welcome. > > Memory says that 22" wide is the recommended minimum. > > PDW > > | 11787|11745|2006-09-20 11:43:34|seeratlas|Re: Pitfalls of security (Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose)|hehehe, Peter, perhaps it was just local slang, but in my day "White Pointers" almost always traveled the beaches in 'pairs', and attached to those of the female persuasion, and due to their usually only recently 'uncovered' nature, would lock your attention causing the average male to wander into the odd beach chair, volleyball poles etc., deadly man traps they were indeed. :) In my diving days, I asked one of my trainers, (a SEAL) whether there was any advantage to different colored websuits in the water vis a vis things that might want to take a bite out of you. He was of the opinion that anything other than darkblue/black might help so I ordered up a full farmer john suit from WhiteStag cause I was planning on doing a lot of diving off the Pac NorthWest. "coooooolllllddd" In any event, that year they had come out with a bright orange that made me look like the biggest Garibaldi ever to roam the seven seas :) Dunno if it actually worked much deeper than 40 or 50 feet as those colors are among the first to 'go' down there, but I did have occassion to be in the water with what was estimated as an 18' GW (I know cause it was caught and killed a few days later) off the coast of Catalina Island near a bunch of sea caves. I have a photo somewhere of me in the water just before I went down, and from what I was told afterwards, the shark arrived on the surface and went down in the same place just a minute or two after I did. In any event, I never saw him, but scared the hell out of my father and everyone else on the boat. This was not the case off a rock cliff up near Ketchikan (sp?) where I was playing with a wolf eel, as I'd never seen one before, when all of a sudden all the light went out. I turned around to see what was the cause and was about 3 to 4 feet from the biggest eye I'd ever seen. Was a BIG (for those who don't dive, in the water everything looks like about 25 percnt bigger:) when you're scared 'chitless' more than that :) heheheh)) Bull Killer Whale. He was just floating there, turned sideways, examining me with that single great big eye. I, of course, was simulating paper on the side of the cliff, but I did not get a sense of hostility or predation, and after probably 30 seconds or so, I moved VERY slowly out a few feet and ever so slowly extended my gloved hand to just behind his eye where I could see a loose piece of skin shedding off. He did nothing so I inched closer and closer, finally actually touching his skin which to my surprise appeared to have had very fine hair on it. I slowly scratched the area with the loose skin and he blinked, then closed the eye. For I don't know, a minute or so, I rubbed slowly around that area, then he opened his eye , blinked and then moved off leaving me flopping around in the equivalent of prop wash. Was one of the most amazing moments of my life. Re: beer, lol, I'd forgot about the 'slabs' LOL. How do you guys come up with names like that? LOL I was told once that the people of Darwin drink more beer person for person than any population on the planet. I believe it too :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > > > Deadliest traps I ever saw were on aussie beaches, the "White > > Pointers" would get you every time :) > > Depends. They're certainly around near where I live but since I don't like diving in 16C > water (or cooler) I don't care. In the tropical regions you generally don't get the great > whites, and realistically they're pretty rare sharks. I'm more concerned about tiger sharks > in warm waters; they're aggressive, eat almost anything, grow large and have large jaws > for their body size. > > > But the biggest baddest missing teeth, scarred face and broken nosed > > aussies would look me dead in the eye, throw their shoulders back, > > walk straight up to my face and hand me something called a 'Darwin > > Stubbie' which WILL knock the average t-totaler on his arse:) Good > > times there, and good memories. > > Yep, know what you mean. I worked & sailed out of Darwin quite a lot back in the 80s. We > used to decide on the beer rations by a simple formula. Number of days at sea divided by > 2 equals number of 24 can slabs per person. These days I'd be bloated & asleep before I > got half done. > > PDW > | 11788|11788|2006-09-20 12:14:48|Russyl|Selling my Hutton hull|Hey folks. I know this isnt a Swain boat but I am selling my hull at a reasonable price if you dont want to tackle the high steel prices right now. This website has been an a valuable resource but I am being forced to move by my company and I cannot take the hull with me. It can be seen here. http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/209842277.html. Please make sure to use the email through craigslist as the one associated with this account no longer works| 11789|11788|2006-09-20 13:35:16|Alex Christie|Re: Selling my Hutton hull|R On 20-Sep-06, at 9:05 AM, Russyl wrote: > Hey folks. I know this isnt a Swain boat but I am selling my hull at a > reasonable price if you dont want to tackle the high steel prices > right now. This website has been an a valuable resource but I am being > forced to move by my company and I cannot take the hull with me. It > can be seen here. > http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/209842277.html. > > Please make sure to use the email through craigslist as the one > associated with this account no longer works > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11790|11788|2006-09-20 13:50:16|Alex Christie|Re: Selling my Hutton hull|Russyl's link for his 39' Hutton hull didn't work cuz there was a period at the end of his URL, so try this link: http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/209842277.html Alex On 20-Sep-06, at 9:05 AM, Russyl wrote: > Hey folks. I know this isnt a Swain boat but I am selling my hull at a > reasonable price if you dont want to tackle the high steel prices > right now. This website has been an a valuable resource but I am being > forced to move by my company and I cannot take the hull with me. It > can be seen here. > http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/209842277.html. > > Please make sure to use the email through craigslist as the one > associated with this account no longer works [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11791|11788|2006-09-20 15:49:28|Paul|Re: Selling my Hutton hull|I had the same problem but just eliminated the item number and got the boat list and the "39' Steel project boat" entry was right there Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > R > On 20-Sep-06, at 9:05 AM, Russyl wrote: > > > Hey folks. I know this isnt a Swain boat but I am selling my hull at a > > reasonable price if you dont want to tackle the high steel prices > > right now. This website has been an a valuable resource but I am being > > forced to move by my company and I cannot take the hull with me. It > > can be seen here. > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/209842277.html. > > > > Please make sure to use the email through craigslist as the one > > associated with this account no longer works > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11792|11745|2006-09-20 17:03:41|kingsknight4life|Re: Pilothouse doors|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > "The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to narrow. > ... So from my perspective that means measuring the width of your > shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 inches > at the extreme minimal end." My shoulders fit through my 22" opening just fine and I'm around 225 lbs. and 6 feet tall.| 11793|11745|2006-09-20 22:32:24|tom|Re: Pilothouse doors|One thing that would dictate the width would be clearance to open the door and fold up against the cabin. on my 26 the opening is 19-1/4" ID wide and at that there is just enough room to open door and clear comings Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "kingsknight4life" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pilothouse doors > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: >> >> "The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to > narrow. >> ... So from my perspective that means measuring the width of > your >> shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 > inches >> at the extreme minimal end." > > My shoulders fit through my 22" opening just fine and I'm around 225 > lbs. and 6 feet tall. > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 11794|11745|2006-09-20 23:32:48|David A. Frantz|Re: Pilothouse doors|Well I acrually measured myself before responding to this question. At 6 ft. and 265, 22" would be good dripping wet. The problem is when one has a little bit more on to contend with foul weather or whatever. Even worst trying to navigate with large packages or other loads. All of this with a body stiffend from age and I'd much prefer the larger door. One thing to consider would be making the door way as snag free as possible. It is just one area of a ship where I think a little effort into design will lead to a much safe and convienent porto. Dave kingsknight4life wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > "The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to > narrow. > > ... So from my perspective that means measuring the width of > your > > shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 > inches > > at the extreme minimal end." > > My shoulders fit through my 22" opening just fine and I'm around 225 > lbs. and 6 feet tall. > > | 11795|11745|2006-09-20 23:38:50|(no author)|(no subject)|Join us and dating with big tall singles now! http://tallshirley123.bravehost.com/tallfriends.htm| 11796|11745|2006-09-21 00:12:21|silascrosby|Re: Pilothouse doors|On 'Silas Crosby' a BS 36, I added an aluminum dodger to a standard pilothouse. To make more room under the dodger I bifolded the companionway door with a strip of PVC fabric over the piano hinge. No significant loss of strength. Companionway is 22" wide and I installed the 4 cyl Isuzu through this space ( with alternator and air filter off) Also, have a look at the interesting companionway on 'Seal' owned by Hamish Laird. Try googling for that( or perhaps Alex can provide a link). Steve| 11797|11797|2006-09-21 05:04:23|sae140|The problem of flags ...|Just got back on line .. I'm all for Audeojude's suggestion to let the Security stuff drop - but let's not chuck the baby out with the bathwater. There is a boating issue (unfortunately related to politics) which affects *everyone* sailing a cruising sailboat, and that is the flag of registration carried at the stern, and the perception this may engender in a foreign port. Because these flags are invariably national flags, the actions of our governments can - whether we like it or not - influence how we as sailors are received. Under International Maritime Law it is a legal requirement to fly the flag of the country of registration when entering or leaving a foreign port and, although not mandatory whilst in international waters, most boats simply leave 'em up. Contrary to what many bureaucrats would have up believe, it is *not* a legal requirement (in Britain at least) to fly these flags whilst in port, religiously raising and lowering 'em at dawn and dusk. If anyone has a solution to this problem I'd love to hear it. My only suggestion would be the flying of some kind of recognised secondary flag as an indicator that the skipper was politically neutral. Whether anyone would take any notice of this is, of course, another matter. Colin| 11798|11798|2006-09-21 05:10:30|sae140|New type of lift keel ?|I don't know if anyone here from Britain saw the TV program on Sunday morning about the Southampton Boat Show ? There was a quick shot of a new type of lifting keel which I thought might be of interest to anyone wishing to build a shoal-draft boat, but without using dagger-boards or a centre-board. It was comprised of a pair of tandem hinged beams, with a hinged ballast torpedo on their ends. Draft was something around 5 or 6 feet. The whole assembly hinged backwards and upwards - I think into the hull, but if not, then to a position which gave a draft of only a foot or so. Very much an all-up or all-down affair. Parallelogram principle - torpedo stays horizontal during the lift. This assembly would have very little wetted area, but I couldn't quite figure out where the lateral resistance was coming from. Sorry this is such a vague description, but I was occupied doing other things, saw the TV image out of the corner of my eye, and 10 seconds later it was gone ! I've tried the Southampton Boat Show website without success. Colin| 11799|11798|2006-09-21 07:00:51|sae140|Re: New type of lift keel ?|quick update - this appears to be it: http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/ Pages 3, 14 and 15 are useful. Draft down: 5ft Up: 16" funny how the mind plays tricks - I thought the 2 beams were further apart, and that it was a much bigger boat - dunno if the idea could be scaled-up ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I don't know if anyone here from Britain saw the TV program > on Sunday morning about the Southampton Boat Show ? There > was a quick shot of a new type of lifting keel which I > thought might be of interest to anyone wishing to build a > shoal-draft boat, but without using dagger-boards or a > centre-board. > > It was comprised of a pair of tandem hinged beams, with a > hinged ballast torpedo on their ends. Draft was something > around 5 or 6 feet. The whole assembly hinged backwards and > upwards - I think into the hull, but if not, then to a > position which gave a draft of only a foot or so. Very much > an all-up or all-down affair. > Parallelogram principle - torpedo stays horizontal during > the lift. This assembly would have very little wetted area, > but I couldn't quite figure out where the lateral resistance > was coming from. > > Sorry this is such a vague description, but I was occupied > doing other things, saw the TV image out of the corner of > my eye, and 10 seconds later it was gone ! I've tried the > Southampton Boat Show website without success. > > Colin > | 11800|11797|2006-09-21 10:18:35|seeratlas|Re: The problem of flags ...|I've known several sailors who sailed 'dicey' areas who carried several flags :) I don't think I've ever heard of any one being prosecuted for having out the wrong flag but that doesn't equate with it not having happened. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Just got back on line .. > > I'm all for Audeojude's suggestion to let the Security stuff > drop - but let's not chuck the baby out with the bathwater. > > There is a boating issue (unfortunately related to politics) > which affects *everyone* sailing a cruising sailboat, and > that is the flag of registration carried at the stern, and > the perception this may engender in a foreign port. > Because these flags are invariably national flags, the > actions of our governments can - whether we like it or not - > influence how we as sailors are received. > > Under International Maritime Law it is a legal requirement > to fly the flag of the country of registration when entering > or leaving a foreign port and, although not mandatory whilst > in international waters, most boats simply leave 'em up. > Contrary to what many bureaucrats would have up believe, it > is *not* a legal requirement (in Britain at least) to fly > these flags whilst in port, religiously raising and lowering > 'em at dawn and dusk. > > If anyone has a solution to this problem I'd love to hear it. > My only suggestion would be the flying of some kind of > recognised secondary flag as an indicator that the skipper > was politically neutral. Whether anyone would take any > notice of this is, of course, another matter. > > Colin > | 11801|11798|2006-09-21 10:32:23|seeratlas|Re: New type of lift keel ?|Interesting design but if scaled up as you say, construction would need to be massive to give me any sense of security. In big weather, its not entirely unusual for a small yacht, to fall off the top of wave sideways. Upon impact the transverse load on the keel must be enormous. I did it once in a 25 ton 54 footer and harnessed in and tied to the center cockpit binacle frame, and it was like getting hit from the side in an auto accident. Course one might get effective use of such a design if it was used to get from say 3to 4 feet draft up to six or seven feet. You'd want the leading edge faired into the front of the bulb to keep from hanging up on stray lines/kelp etc, but I'd still worry about tweaking the thing and jamming it if you hit something while it was extended. I guess each builder would have to weight the utility in being able to sail right up to the beach :) vs. the complexity/cost/ and potential for problems of the design. Very interesting tho. For my purposes, however, the twin keel solves the problem and gives me the ability to ground and stay upright so as to enable work on the bottom pretty much anywhere there's a six foot tide. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > quick update - this appears to be it: > http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/ > > Pages 3, 14 and 15 are useful. > Draft down: 5ft > Up: 16" > > funny how the mind plays tricks - I thought the 2 beams > were further apart, and that it was a much bigger boat - > dunno if the idea could be scaled-up ? > > Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > I don't know if anyone here from Britain saw the TV program > > on Sunday morning about the Southampton Boat Show ? There > > was a quick shot of a new type of lifting keel which I > > thought might be of interest to anyone wishing to build a > > shoal-draft boat, but without using dagger-boards or a > > centre-board. > > > > It was comprised of a pair of tandem hinged beams, with a > > hinged ballast torpedo on their ends. Draft was something > > around 5 or 6 feet. The whole assembly hinged backwards and > > upwards - I think into the hull, but if not, then to a > > position which gave a draft of only a foot or so. Very much > > an all-up or all-down affair. > > Parallelogram principle - torpedo stays horizontal during > > the lift. This assembly would have very little wetted area, > > but I couldn't quite figure out where the lateral resistance > > was coming from. > > > > Sorry this is such a vague description, but I was occupied > > doing other things, saw the TV image out of the corner of > > my eye, and 10 seconds later it was gone ! I've tried the > > Southampton Boat Show website without success. > > > > Colin > > > | 11802|11802|2006-09-21 17:50:31|jonathanstevens@swefling-furniture.co.uk|Anchoring|Brent, You recomend using 1/4 inch wire rope as anchor cable; what sort of hitch do you use to tie it to your mooring bit please? Jonathan.| 11803|11745|2006-09-21 20:15:24|peter_d_wiley|Re: Pilothouse doors|I did say recommended *minimum*. That is, you shouldn't plan on making it any smaller than that. Making it bigger, if you have the space available, isn't a drama. Both George Buehler & Tom Colvin have a list of recommended minimum dimensions for various things in their books. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to narrow. > When you think aobut a hatch way especially this one you really need to > design for the items that are most likely to be going through that hatch > way. So from my perspective that means measuring the width of your > shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 inches > at the extreme minimal end. > > As for hieght as others have mentioned there is or are a lot of > variables here. Ones that I haven't seen mentioned is the age and > hieght of the user. Like it or not age does impact your perspective > and what was easy to do at 20 takes way to much effort at 50. Being > tall and stiff I'd want to make sure that clearance is not a problem. > Considering the effort and time required to implement such entry way I'd > suggest a mock up first. The mock up doesn;t have to be fancy a step > ladder and some cardboard cut outs might take care of that. > > Dave > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > > > boatbuilding question? > > > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > > > and thoughts welcome. > > > > Memory says that 22" wide is the recommended minimum. > > > > PDW > > > > > | 11804|11710|2006-09-21 20:23:32|peter_d_wiley|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 06:45:25PM -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > > I got a reply from Seer to one of my posts before I received my own > > post, and sometimes I get double posts. > > It confuses me. Not to worry. > > Going back to the hatch size. That was a bright light who mentioned > > the engine may need to come out. I have done this on my boat and it > > just fits. I remembered this when adding insulation to the fridge > > which sits on the cabin sole. The fridge just fits through the hole as > > well. > > Something else to consider is a bolt-on semi-permanent 'frame' around > the hatch. For usual access, you'd use the hatch; for engine removal, > etc., you'd unbolt the frame. I haven't seen anything like this before, > but it seems like it should work. I think it'd be a rust trap unless you were very careful about fit & caulking. I've thought of building a removable 'soft patch' into the bridge deck for engine access, so far I'm still thinking about it. Same issues WRT water ingress & rust apply in spades because I'd want it flat so it wasn't a tripping hazard. It can be done because I've seen it done. Pertinent question is - can I do it well? It's on the list of stuff to discuss with my engineering guys here at work. PDW| 11805|11805|2006-09-21 20:40:49|brutus1940|swain 26|Hello, to everyone. Does the 26 footer have both plans for a twin keel or just a single? Thanks Weldon| 11806|11805|2006-09-21 22:04:41|tom|Re: swain 26|Hello Weldon The plans cover the twin keels and single + Brent came out with a bigger single keel for tankage ect. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "brutus1940" To: Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] swain 26 > Hello, to everyone. Does the 26 footer have both plans for a twin keel > or just a single? Thanks Weldon > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 11807|11710|2006-09-21 22:52:34|seeratlas|Re: Hatch Frame, removable cockpit floor?|My last boat had a centercockpit right over the engine and a bolted in double flanged plate "just in case" the engine needed to come out, you unbolted and removed the cockpit floor and hauled it straight up with a crane. Never had to do it (thank god) but it was there. This WAS a glass boat however. Trying to do the double flange thing for a good seal in steel might be a bit of a challenge. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > > Something else to consider is a bolt-on semi-permanent 'frame' around > > the hatch. For usual access, you'd use the hatch; for engine removal, > > etc., you'd unbolt the frame. I haven't seen anything like this before, > > but it seems like it should work. > > I think it'd be a rust trap unless you were very careful about fit & caulking. I've thought of > building a removable 'soft patch' into the bridge deck for engine access, so far I'm still > thinking about it. Same issues WRT water ingress & rust apply in spades because I'd want > it flat so it wasn't a tripping hazard. It can be done because I've seen it done. Pertinent > question is - can I do it well? It's on the list of stuff to discuss with my engineering guys > here at work. > > PDW > | 11808|11808|2006-09-22 17:12:53|khooper_fboats|6" x 20' x 3/8" Aluminum Tube for Masts, Pennsylvania|http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=980377 The Swain 36 uses a 40' mast, is that right? Should be able to get two tube masts out of this lot if you sleeve them. Doesn't say what grade the aluminum is but then again a 3/8" wall is so massive that it probably doesn't matter...is this actually schedule 40 aluminum pipe?| 11809|11808|2006-09-22 19:24:02|tom|Re: 6" x 20' x 3/8" Aluminum Tube for Masts, Pennsylvania|No 3/8" wall is heaveyer than sch 40 in a 5 or 6" size . 5" sch 80 is .375-- 3/8" wall , 6" sch 40 is .280" and sch 80 is.432" this is out of the aluminum pipe book from a supplyer. 3/8" wall is 6-1/2 to 7 pounds a foot seems a little heavy to me Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 6" x 20' x 3/8" Aluminum Tube for Masts, Pennsylvania > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=980377 > > The Swain 36 uses a 40' mast, is that right? Should be able to get two > tube masts out of this lot if you sleeve them. Doesn't say what grade > the aluminum is but then again a 3/8" wall is so massive that it > probably doesn't matter...is this actually schedule 40 aluminum pipe? > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 11810|11710|2006-09-22 19:47:58|brentswain38|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|I just read in the latest Lattitudes and attitudes about a guy who , when woken by his cell phone , reached out, missed his cell phone and mistakenly grabbed his 357 magnum ,right next to it. He put it to his ear and pulled the trigger. Perhaps Alex should have said to the robber with the gun"Hey, your cell phone is ringing." Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 06:45:25PM -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > > I got a reply from Seer to one of my posts before I received my own > > post, and sometimes I get double posts. > > It confuses me. Not to worry. > > Going back to the hatch size. That was a bright light who mentioned > > the engine may need to come out. I have done this on my boat and it > > just fits. I remembered this when adding insulation to the fridge > > which sits on the cabin sole. The fridge just fits through the hole as > > well. > > Something else to consider is a bolt-on semi-permanent 'frame' around > the hatch. For usual access, you'd use the hatch; for engine removal, > etc., you'd unbolt the frame. I haven't seen anything like this before, > but it seems like it should work. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11811|11745|2006-09-22 19:48:52|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse doors|Adding another three inches to the slope of the back of the cabin greatly enhances access. You can get most engines thru a 22 inch wide door. Mine is 19 inches wide and it was a bit dicy getting my diesel in. This eliminates the need for a hatch in the cockpit floor with all its potential for leaks and corrosion.With a good slope you can drop the hook of a crane directly to the balance point of the engine and easily lift it out, vertically. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to narrow. > When you think aobut a hatch way especially this one you really need to > design for the items that are most likely to be going through that hatch > way. So from my perspective that means measuring the width of your > shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 inches > at the extreme minimal end. > > As for hieght as others have mentioned there is or are a lot of > variables here. Ones that I haven't seen mentioned is the age and > hieght of the user. Like it or not age does impact your perspective > and what was easy to do at 20 takes way to much effort at 50. Being > tall and stiff I'd want to make sure that clearance is not a problem. > Considering the effort and time required to implement such entry way I'd > suggest a mock up first. The mock up doesn;t have to be fancy a step > ladder and some cardboard cut outs might take care of that. > > Dave > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > > > boatbuilding question? > > > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > > > and thoughts welcome. > > > > Memory says that 22" wide is the recommended minimum. > > > > PDW > > > > > | 11812|11745|2006-09-22 19:50:45|brentswain38|Re: Pilothouse doors|A wider door wouldn't open the full 180 degrees without hitting the cockpit coaming first. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Well I acrually measured myself before responding to this question. > At 6 ft. and 265, 22" would be good dripping wet. > > The problem is when one has a little bit more on to contend with foul > weather or whatever. Even worst trying to navigate with large > packages or other loads. All of this with a body stiffend from age > and I'd much prefer the larger door. > > One thing to consider would be making the door way as snag free as > possible. It is just one area of a ship where I think a little effort > into design will lead to a much safe and convienent porto. > > Dave > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "David A. Frantz" > > wrote: > > > > > > "The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to > > narrow. > > > ... So from my perspective that means measuring the width of > > your > > > shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 > > inches > > > at the extreme minimal end." > > > > My shoulders fit through my 22" opening just fine and I'm around 225 > > lbs. and 6 feet tall. > > > > > | 11813|11797|2006-09-22 19:58:16|brentswain38|Re: The problem of flags ...|A minimum size flag would seem far more diplomatic than one the size of a barn door ,as some fly. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Just got back on line .. > > I'm all for Audeojude's suggestion to let the Security stuff > drop - but let's not chuck the baby out with the bathwater. > > There is a boating issue (unfortunately related to politics) > which affects *everyone* sailing a cruising sailboat, and > that is the flag of registration carried at the stern, and > the perception this may engender in a foreign port. > Because these flags are invariably national flags, the > actions of our governments can - whether we like it or not - > influence how we as sailors are received. > > Under International Maritime Law it is a legal requirement > to fly the flag of the country of registration when entering > or leaving a foreign port and, although not mandatory whilst > in international waters, most boats simply leave 'em up. > Contrary to what many bureaucrats would have up believe, it > is *not* a legal requirement (in Britain at least) to fly > these flags whilst in port, religiously raising and lowering > 'em at dawn and dusk. > > If anyone has a solution to this problem I'd love to hear it. > My only suggestion would be the flying of some kind of > recognised secondary flag as an indicator that the skipper > was politically neutral. Whether anyone would take any > notice of this is, of course, another matter. > > Colin > | 11814|11802|2006-09-22 20:03:51|brentswain38|Re: Anchoring|I have hard eyes every 50 feet making each one 50 feet long. I put a piece of floating poly line thru the eyes and tie them off to the bit making a snubber. The poly floats free of the coral, the wire takes the chafe . I then either anchor with 50 ft , or 100 ft, etc whatever is the nearest multiple of 50 feet. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jonathanstevens@... wrote: > > Brent, > > You recomend using 1/4 inch wire rope as anchor cable; what sort of hitch do > you use to tie it to your mooring bit please? > > Jonathan. > | 11815|11797|2006-09-23 05:41:21|sae140|Re: The problem of flags ...|-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I've known several sailors who sailed 'dicey' areas who carried > several flags :) I don't think I've ever heard of any one being > prosecuted for having out the wrong flag but that doesn't equate with > it not having happened. > > seer > I think it was in Gibraltar where some anally-retentive official seized someone's ensign and threatened the skipper with prosecution for flying that flag 'improperly'. But it might have been some other colonial outpost where there is often a tendency for minor officials to behave in a more 'British' fashion than the native Brits ever do. Tea at four, with cucumber sandwiches on the lawn - club ties and dress for dinner - that kind of thing. These guys are clones of a particular kind of yachtie who values the kudos assigned to the wearing of the Blue Ensign amongst a marina full of Red flags. Re: Blue Ensigns .... "The permit(s) must be carried on board at all times. Improper use of special ensigns and the Union Flag is punishable by a maximum penalty of £1,000 for each offence. No yacht may fly the Union Flag. A special ensign is any other than an undefaced Red Ensign. A Red Ensign should be carried on the vessel even if not used." from: http://www.royal-southern.co.uk Personally I think the whole flag thing is madness and well outdated. I've just learned that in 1947, an RAF vessel was seized at sea by British Customs, on the grounds that it was flying an illegal ensign (the RAF one), instead of the Red Ensign. With the food and materials shortages in post-war Britain, you'd have thought they would have had more important things to worry about. If anyone has the slightest interest in any of this stuff - checkout: http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb-ensr.html (or see a psychiatrist ...) And for the controversy over the white bordered pilot-jack: http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb-jkpil.html I remember well the exchange between a timid Brit yachtsman who asked a Dutch harbourmaster about the flag protocol to be observed whilst in the waters around and within Holland - the reply he got was "You can fly a pair of ladies knickers from the masthead for all I care." I do so like the Dutch. Colin| 11816|11745|2006-09-23 08:14:29|Carl Volkwein|Re: Pilothouse doors|Has anyone thought about bi-fold doors on both sides? they could be wider and still open all the way. Carl. peter_d_wiley wrote: I did say recommended *minimum*. That is, you shouldn't plan on making it any smaller than that. Making it bigger, if you have the space available, isn't a drama. Both George Buehler & Tom Colvin have a list of recommended minimum dimensions for various things in their books. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > The first thing I thought about was that the width is just to narrow. > When you think aobut a hatch way especially this one you really need to > design for the items that are most likely to be going through that hatch > way. So from my perspective that means measuring the width of your > shoulders and adding just a bit for slack. That would put 22 inches > at the extreme minimal end. > > As for hieght as others have mentioned there is or are a lot of > variables here. Ones that I haven't seen mentioned is the age and > hieght of the user. Like it or not age does impact your perspective > and what was easy to do at 20 takes way to much effort at 50. Being > tall and stiff I'd want to make sure that clearance is not a problem. > Considering the effort and time required to implement such entry way I'd > suggest a mock up first. The mock up doesn;t have to be fancy a step > ladder and some cardboard cut outs might take care of that. > > Dave > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Say can anyone spare a moment from the current excitement and answer a > > > boatbuilding question? > > > > > > Is 800mm x 500mm (32in x 19in) enough for a pilothouse door? Opinions > > > and thoughts welcome. > > > > Memory says that 22" wide is the recommended minimum. > > > > PDW > > > > > --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11817|11710|2006-09-23 09:49:07|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Boat Security contd. Marine Flare Gun possibilities|On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 12:15:08AM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 06:45:25PM -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > > > I got a reply from Seer to one of my posts before I received my own > > > post, and sometimes I get double posts. > > > It confuses me. Not to worry. > > > Going back to the hatch size. That was a bright light who mentioned > > > the engine may need to come out. I have done this on my boat and it > > > just fits. I remembered this when adding insulation to the fridge > > > which sits on the cabin sole. The fridge just fits through the hole as > > > well. > > > > Something else to consider is a bolt-on semi-permanent 'frame' around > > the hatch. For usual access, you'd use the hatch; for engine removal, > > etc., you'd unbolt the frame. I haven't seen anything like this before, > > but it seems like it should work. > > I think it'd be a rust trap unless you were very careful about fit & caulking. You have a point. Thinking about it... I wonder how something like this would work: - - Hard plastic washer ------------------ - - - Strip of heavy polyethylene (10-mil drop cloth, etc.) _ ______________ - - Hard plastic washer Make the holes oversized, paint the heck out of it with Corroseal (or, per Gerd's report, Rust Bullet sounds pretty good) making sure to seal the edges of the holes, and use a couple of folds of poly sheeting in between (punching an undersized hole in it for the bolt, then pushing the bolt through.) The poly, when crushed between two pieces of steel, fills in all the tiny gaps and voids and leaves no room for moisture. Admittedly, there's still some space around the bolt itself... but the heavy paint on the hole edges should take care of that. Yeah, I know... the thought of bolting stuff on deck usually gives me the hives, and my mind usually turns to "weld on a strip of stainless and bolt _that_" - but that's expensive, and I'm trying to learn to think in more economical ways. :) > I've thought of > building a removable 'soft patch' into the bridge deck for engine access, so far I'm still > thinking about it. Same issues WRT water ingress & rust apply in spades because I'd want > it flat so it wasn't a tripping hazard. It can be done because I've seen it done. Pertinent > question is - can I do it well? It's on the list of stuff to discuss with my engineering guys > here at work. I'd be interested in hearing what you and they come up with. My engine access hatch rests on a square made up of stainless angle, but I suspect we're all going to be solving this kind of problems over and over and over again. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11818|11797|2006-09-23 13:34:11|kevincurry10|Re: The problem of flags ...|> Improper use of special ensigns and the >Union Flag is punishable by a maximum >penalty of £1,000 for each offence. I gather they'd hang me for flying my Jolly Roger.....| 11819|11797|2006-09-25 11:36:53|gschnell|Re: The problem of flags ...|Members of the Bluewater Yacht Club (Vancouver), suggest flying the flag of the country you are entering. Many of our members actually carry fabric, sew a flag and fly it as they are entering that countries waters and port. Apparently this is an acceptable (desireable) proceedure. Gord sae140 wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable | 11820|11797|2006-09-25 12:46:52|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: The problem of flags ...|On Mon, Sep 25, 2006 at 08:24:22AM -0700, gschnell wrote: > Members of the Bluewater Yacht Club (Vancouver), suggest flying the flag > of the country you are entering. Many of our members actually carry > fabric, sew a flag and fly it as they are entering that countries waters > and port. > Apparently this is an acceptable (desireable) proceedure. In my experience, the flag of the country you're entering is flown as a secondary, courtesy flag (i.e., off the starboard spreader.) The primary flag is flown from the port spreader, and is usually the largest one aboard. I do recall the Bahamians, at least, being a little testy with those who weren't flying the courtesy flag when they came in. I've got a plastic bag with quite a few sun-faded courtesy flags stowed away in it; makes for good memories of the past and plans for the future. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11821|11821|2006-09-25 20:33:32|melanielauzon7777|Brent Swain 36' "Island Breeze" For sale|Hi everybody! She's a strong bilge keeled beauty currently in Fiji. Expect to have her back in Hawaii by Feb. '07 with new stainless rigging. Selling price $38,500, eco-sounded hull in great condition, full jib locker. She's been round the world and is ready for another go. For more info. call Cedric at 808-990-0947 in Hawaii or email melanielauzon7777@...| 11822|11821|2006-09-25 20:33:51|melanielauzon7777|Brent Swain 36' "Island Breeze" For sale|Hi everybody! She's a strong bilge keeled beauty currently in Fiji. Expect to have her back in Hawaii by Feb. '07 with new stainless rigging. Selling price $38,500, eco-sounded hull in great condition, full jib locker. She's been round the world and is ready for another go. For more info. call Cedric at 808-990-0947 in Hawaii or email melanielauzon7777@...| 11823|11823|2006-09-26 00:29:08|Aaron|Sandblaster Tom|Tom How is the sandblasting project going. The closer I get to ordering steel the more I look at the Rust Bullet products. Aaron| 11824|11823|2006-09-26 09:15:17|tom|Re: Sandblaster Tom|Hello Aaron I wish there was a good allternative to sandblasting, if wheel abraded preprimed steel was available here it would have been well worth it. My sandblasting is going slow, used over 30 100 pound sacks + about 25 gallons of gas in the compressor and Im not half done yet. Blasting to a clean white finish I can only do about 10 to 12 square feet per sack and its about $7 a sack. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron" To: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Sandblaster Tom > Tom > How is the sandblasting project going. > The closer I get to ordering steel the more I look at the Rust Bullet > products. > Aaron > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 11825|11823|2006-09-26 17:05:33|ALEX CHRISTIE|Sandblasters of the future|It's too bad there isn't some sort of cup-like device where you could trap the sand then vibrate the living daylights out of it with ultrasound, cleaning the steel. You'd end up with a circular blasted shape which you'd then overlap with another circle. Anything out there like that, or am I dreaming? Alex Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sandblaster Tom > Hello Aaron > I wish there was a good allternative to sandblasting, if wheel > abraded > | 11826|11823|2006-09-26 18:47:36|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Sandblasters of the future|On Tue, Sep 26, 2006 at 02:00:27PM -0700, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > It's too bad there isn't some sort of cup-like device where you could trap the sand then vibrate the living daylights out of it with ultrasound, cleaning the steel. You'd end up with a circular blasted shape which you'd then overlap with another circle. Anything out there like that, or am I dreaming? I just saw a big, complicated system that uses a "special medium" (from what I could tell, it's just baking soda) and sucks it back in as it blasts. According to the manufacturer, there's almost no cleanup involved after blasting, it's completely non-toxic, and it only takes a couple of small bags of the medium to blast a very large area. I can only imagine the price :) If you'd like, I can look into it a bit more, but that's all the info I have at the moment. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11827|11823|2006-09-26 19:07:59|seeratlas|Re: Sandblasters of the future|oh, one other thing. At least with the sand I used, it was good for essentially one blasting impact with the steel. the sharp edges of the sand got knocked off quick and trying to reuse the sand was a waste of time and effort, at it was essentially getting 'polished' by its impact with the steel. Perhaps a combination of a shroud or tent and a BIG shopvac might keep the workarea a bit cleaner, but then again the sand would destroy the vac in pretty short order I think. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > It's too bad there isn't some sort of cup-like device where you could trap the sand then vibrate the living daylights out of it with ultrasound, cleaning the steel. You'd end up with a circular blasted shape which you'd then overlap with another circle. Anything out there like that, or am I dreaming? > > Alex > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sandblaster Tom > > > Hello Aaron > > I wish there was a good allternative to sandblasting, if wheel > > abraded > > > | 11828|11823|2006-09-26 19:09:09|seeratlas|Re: Sandblasters of the future|Alex, Years ago I saw something like a mobil shotpeening outfit that was something like you describe, but the purpose was not to clean but rather to surface harden the material (tho i don't see how it could fail to reach the same result, i.e., clean as well as harden. In advance of someone making a big deal out of it, LOL, i'll note that shotpeening would seem to defeat the purpose in that part of the intent of sandblasting is to leave some 'tooth' on the metal for the paint to adhere too, shotpeening would have the opposite effect. Thus my point is not to advocate use of the thing I describe, but to speculate that if you can do that, then I would think that somewhere, there is someone doing what you suggest. For the outside of the hull perhaps a mylar tent of somekind could be rigged so that the expended sand is contained and falls down into somekind of trap instead of flying all over the place. Something to think about. I did some sandblasting on a 30 foot boat trailer once, and 'once' is exactly how many times I intend to do that in my life. It sux, REALLY sux. Gotta be a better way. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > It's too bad there isn't some sort of cup-like device where you could trap the sand then vibrate the living daylights out of it with ultrasound, cleaning the steel. You'd end up with a circular blasted shape which you'd then overlap with another circle. Anything out there like that, or am I dreaming? > > Alex > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sandblaster Tom > > > Hello Aaron > > I wish there was a good allternative to sandblasting, if wheel > > abraded > > > | 11829|11823|2006-09-27 04:27:44|sae140|Re: Sandblasters of the future|I've just pulled the following US patent numbers from my "abrading info" subdirectory in case they're of use to anyone. A mixed bag - everything from needleguns to wheel-abraders to methods of media recovery. Colin 2590576 2707314 2799035 3276219 3343246 3349461 3607161 3667196 3705510 3934374 3937055 4364823 4389820 4674239 4744181 6609955| 11830|11823|2006-09-27 09:32:11|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Sandblasters of the future|On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 08:23:28AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > I've just pulled the following US patent numbers from my > "abrading info" subdirectory in case they're of use to anyone. > A mixed bag - everything from needleguns to wheel-abraders > to methods of media recovery. > Colin > > > 2590576 > 2707314 > 2799035 > 3276219 > 3343246 > 3349461 > 3607161 > 3667196 > 3705510 > 3934374 > 3937055 > 4364823 > 4389820 > 4674239 > 4744181 > 6609955 Nice collection - thanks, Colin! For those who want to check these out, http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm has a nice interface for patent searches. (I'm quite a fan of the PTO database; it contains some of the finest skull sweat ever demonstrated on this planet, on any subject you'd care to imagine.) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11832|11832|2006-09-27 21:23:35|seeratlas|Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|As I've mentioned, I've been pondering drastically reducing my cockpit size in favor of a more flush rear deck with BIG lazarette and aft cabin under. Accordingly I've been trying to bend my mind around the best way to handle steering on a Swain type transom mounted rudder. Since the main steering station would end up about 10 feet or so forward of the stern, anyone got any suggestions on the simplest (i.e. most reliable) way to rig the steering? I'm thinking perhaps hydraulic which makes remote steering stations easy and assuming highest quality stainless braided lines are used in the initial installation, relatively dependable. With, of course, an emergency tiller ready to slap on top of the rudder should the need arise. What i hate about hydraulics, however is the near total loss of 'feel' when sailing. In any event, feel free to toss out suggestions and especially Brent, and remember that this is a close to 30k displacement boat and whatever I do has to be strong enough to take the forces generated when such a boat is driven backwards by a big swell. thanks in advance seer| 11833|11833|2006-09-27 21:41:58|seeratlas|Cruising World article on Steel boats scheduled for November|http://old.cruisingworld.com/steelpay.htm I see where in one of the sidebars, the family with limited funds found an "origami" steel hull which was the answer to their dreams :) seer| 11834|11833|2006-09-27 21:45:37|seeratlas|Re: Cruising World article on Steel boats scheduled for November|sitting here after dental surgery on meds and see that I've confused 2006 with 1996 :) hehehe. remains a good article however :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > http://old.cruisingworld.com/steelpay.htm > > I see where in one of the sidebars, the family with limited funds > found an "origami" steel hull which was the answer to their dreams :) > > seer > | 11835|11832|2006-09-27 23:12:41|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Hi Seer, I would go for hydraulic, I have had this arrangement on La Chica for more than ten years now, and it has never given any trouble. It also makes it very easy to hookup a decent below deck auto-pilot. Lastly, yes there is no feedback, hence no feel but you soon get used to it and since (i assume) you will not be racing the boat, I do not think that lack of feel matters at all. -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) seeratlas wrote: > As I've mentioned, I've been pondering drastically reducing my cockpit > size in favor of a more flush rear deck with BIG lazarette and aft > cabin under. Accordingly I've been trying to bend my mind around the > best way to handle steering on a Swain type transom mounted rudder. > Since the main steering station would end up about 10 feet or so > forward of the stern, anyone got any suggestions on the simplest (i.e. > most reliable) way to rig the steering? > > I'm thinking perhaps hydraulic which makes remote steering stations > easy and assuming highest quality stainless braided lines are used in > the initial installation, relatively dependable. With, of course, an > emergency tiller ready to slap on top of the rudder should the need > arise. What i hate about hydraulics, however is the near total loss of > 'feel' when sailing. > > In any event, feel free to toss out suggestions and especially Brent, > and remember that this is a close to 30k displacement boat and > whatever I do has to be strong enough to take the forces generated > when such a boat is driven backwards by a big swell. > > thanks in advance > seer > > > | 11836|11833|2006-09-27 23:14:59|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Cruising World article on Steel boats scheduled for November|I do not read Cruising World any more, I find increasingly over the last 5 - 10 years it no longer has any relevancy to my type of sailing. I the early years it was great, but no longer. seeratlas wrote: > sitting here after dental surgery on meds and see that I've confused > 2006 with 1996 :) hehehe. remains a good article however :) > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > >> http://old.cruisingworld.com/steelpay.htm >> >> I see where in one of the sidebars, the family with limited funds >> found an "origami" steel hull which was the answer to their dreams :) >> >> seer >> >> -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11837|11837|2006-09-28 01:06:44|Aaron|Electric outboard|For those who want small electric outboard Can hardly wait for their inbord system. http://ecyclemarine.com/eCycleOutboard.html http://www.sailingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=44189&typeID=397&catID=571| 11838|11832|2006-09-28 03:12:12|jim_both|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Hi Seer; I have two bob each way: Tiller off the rudder post in the cockpit and hydraulic wheel in the pilot house with a steering arm connected to the same rudder post. A small valve allows you to by-pass the hydraulics when at the tiller. Cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > As I've mentioned, I've been pondering drastically reducing my cockpit > size in favor of a more flush rear deck with BIG lazarette and aft > cabin under. Accordingly I've been trying to bend my mind around the > best way to handle steering on a Swain type transom mounted rudder. > Since the main steering station would end up about 10 feet or so > forward of the stern, anyone got any suggestions on the simplest (i.e. > most reliable) way to rig the steering? > > I'm thinking perhaps hydraulic which makes remote steering stations > easy and assuming highest quality stainless braided lines are used in > the initial installation, relatively dependable. With, of course, an > emergency tiller ready to slap on top of the rudder should the need > arise. What i hate about hydraulics, however is the near total loss of > 'feel' when sailing. > > In any event, feel free to toss out suggestions and especially Brent, > and remember that this is a close to 30k displacement boat and > whatever I do has to be strong enough to take the forces generated > when such a boat is driven backwards by a big swell. > > thanks in advance > seer > | 11839|11832|2006-09-28 03:37:11|T & D Cain|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Hydraulic with feedback (of sorts) is available according to a supplier here, and as reported in another forum. Having completed a mid-cockpit cable steering installation recently, the fluid power option with feedback would have been easier by far. THC -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson Sent: Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:40 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions? Hi Seer, I would go for hydraulic, I have had this arrangement on La Chica for more than ten years now, and it has never given any trouble. It also makes it very easy to hookup a decent below deck auto-pilot. Lastly, yes there is no feedback, hence no feel but you soon get used to it and since (i assume) you will not be racing the boat, I do not think that lack of feel matters at all. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11840|11832|2006-09-28 03:49:47|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Forgot to say, but my steering arrangement is also setup as Jim outlined. jim_both wrote: > Hi Seer; > > I have two bob each way: > > Tiller off the rudder post in the cockpit and hydraulic wheel in the > pilot house with a steering arm connected to the same rudder post. A > small valve allows you to by-pass the hydraulics when at the tiller. > Cheers, Jim > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > >> As I've mentioned, I've been pondering drastically reducing my >> > cockpit > >> size in favor of a more flush rear deck with BIG lazarette and aft >> cabin under. Accordingly I've been trying to bend my mind around the >> best way to handle steering on a Swain type transom mounted rudder. >> Since the main steering station would end up about 10 feet or so >> forward of the stern, anyone got any suggestions on the simplest >> > (i.e. > >> most reliable) way to rig the steering? >> >> I'm thinking perhaps hydraulic which makes remote steering stations >> easy and assuming highest quality stainless braided lines are used >> > in > >> the initial installation, relatively dependable. With, of course, an >> emergency tiller ready to slap on top of the rudder should the need >> arise. What i hate about hydraulics, however is the near total loss >> > of > >> 'feel' when sailing. >> >> In any event, feel free to toss out suggestions and especially >> Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11841|11832|2006-09-28 10:21:34|seeratlas|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|i agree on the cable system. did that the proverbial 'once' :( seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "T & D Cain" wrote: > > Hydraulic with feedback (of sorts) is available according to a supplier > here, and as reported in another forum. > Having completed a mid-cockpit cable steering installation recently, the > fluid power option with feedback would have been easier by far. > THC > > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of Paul J. Thompson > Sent: Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:40 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? > Opinions? > > Hi Seer, > > I would go for hydraulic, I have had this arrangement on La Chica for > more than ten years now, and it has never given any trouble. It also > makes it very easy to hookup a decent below deck auto-pilot. Lastly, yes > there is no feedback, hence no feel but you soon get used to it and > since (i assume) you will not be racing the boat, I do not think that > lack of feel matters at all. > -- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11842|11832|2006-09-28 15:33:11|khooper_fboats|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Why is it considered inevitable that a hydraulic system will have no feedback? I never understood that. The brakes on your car are hydraulic and they have a feedback, even power-assisted brakes (it is easy to tell if you have a warped rotor, for instance). I can see why a system using a helm pump has no feedback but what if you used four cylinders and no pump--two cyliners at the wheel and two at the tiller, one for each side of the system. Port and starboard are self-contained systems. Or one double-acting cylinder at the wheel and one double-acting at the tiller. Wheel turns a simple cam which pressurizes one side of the system at a time, port or starboard turn. I would think it would be easy to get a nice compromise between "road feel" and mechanical advantage by a little experimentation with different sized cylinders. And such a system ought to be very cheap to build and maintain. Stainless rams seem to be readily available. Could easily do a small joystick rather than a wheel. Would not have to relieve the system to use the mechanical tiller, since the system would have feedback, it would merely turn the wheel if the wheel was free to run and the tiller was forced over mechanically. So no relief valve. What am I missing? This is probably an ignorant idea or people would already do it a lot. --Ken| 11843|11832|2006-09-29 08:19:09|edward_stoneuk|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Ken, Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. Regards, Ted| 11844|11844|2006-09-29 08:44:13|seeratlas|Rise of Piracy Special on History Channel|title says it all. your local times will vary. seer| 11845|11832|2006-09-29 08:44:50|seeratlas|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Ted, my initial thoughts jive with yours, on the other hand, power assisted steering on cars seems to provide feedback to varying degrees. However, I have never studied the systems, so I'll just guess what we have is mechanical steering with hydraulic 'assist' as opposed to fully hydraulic operation. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Ken, > Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. > Regards, > Ted > | 11846|11832|2006-09-29 09:39:31|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:06:32PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Ken, > Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. Regarding friction losses, I suspect you're right: considering the amount of force that it takes to use a standard brake pedal or a motorcycle hand brake, they do take a decent bit of leverage. I do, however, have a suspicion about *why* marine steering systems tend to not provide any feel: since a steering system is a force multiplier, setting the mechanical advantage low enough to provide feel in calm waters may make it too low to be usable in bad weather - a _really_ bad failure mode - so the manufacturers tend to go for the "safer" option. I'd imagine that you could use an adjustable bypass valve around a high-advantage steering pump to trade off feel for leverage, but it's one more thing that can fail... I've considered having hydraulic systems on board - I really like the power characteristics and the reliability of hydraulics. The thing is, they mostly rely on power (pressure) being generated somewhere nearby, and there aren't any solar cells or wind generators that do that, at least without double conversion losses. :) Besides, if I was going to use them, I'd want to carry the full kit of tools and spares that's necessary for building new hoses - and that requires a fairly large outlay. Not impossible, and I've definitely spent some time noodling on the issue - but it's not something to just lightly add to a boat. When I was in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, I installed a radio control system on a largish steel sailboat, the "Viking Elizabeth"; the owner wanted to be able to control both the wheel and the throttle while working on deck. As I recall, I hooked him up with a top-quality, water-resistant controller from a model airplane store; it had a ~4" steering wheel and a long slider that I used as the throttle. He had already done the mechanical end of the job, but he mentioned that it had been fairly easy due to having hydraulic steering in the first place. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11847|11832|2006-09-29 12:55:54|jim dorey|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|seeratlas wrote: > > > Ted, my initial thoughts jive with yours, on the other hand, power > assisted steering on cars seems to provide feedback to varying > degrees. However, I have never studied the systems, so I'll just guess > what we have is mechanical steering with hydraulic 'assist' as opposed > to fully hydraulic operation. > > seer http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Hydraulics/Hydraul.htm the setup for motorcycle control via hydraulics, seems relevant. there's a way of putting feedback on any set of controls, the cheap gamer steering wheels can be pulled apart and mounted in waterproof boxes, they'll last a decade or so. the load sensing mechanism on the tiller can be set up with a second tiller driven from the primary, through springs. a geared potentiometer or solid state, load sensor can be driven with a second, weaker spring set, the output directly to the feedback motors in the wheel. for a large wheel i'm thinking magnetic coupling, a spinning magnet set pulling the wheel at a speed proportional to the force the water puts on the rudder. it's not too hard to put together a decent force feedback system that's reliable, it's just not going to always look pretty, no big deal if you can mount it in the steering box. for a lark you might even go for fly by wire steering, but i don't know if it's reliable enough for everybody.| 11848|11832|2006-09-29 13:57:31|seeratlas|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|On the bad weather trip from Vancouver to LA that I've referred to several times, my brother had talked me into installing a wagner system on the 53-54 footer (never was sure exactly how long it was:) and it ended up probably saving us as he over bought a HUGE unit which saved the helmsman from having to fight the waves hour after hour. Of course it had no feel whatsoever but it DID have a remote on a cable that you could use to go forward and operate pretty much the whole drive system while fooling with the groundtackle :) I'm going to make sure i can do much the same on the new boat. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:06:32PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Ken, > > Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. > > Regarding friction losses, I suspect you're right: considering the > amount of force that it takes to use a standard brake pedal or a > motorcycle hand brake, they do take a decent bit of leverage. I do, > however, have a suspicion about *why* marine steering systems tend to > not provide any feel: since a steering system is a force multiplier, > setting the mechanical advantage low enough to provide feel in calm > waters may make it too low to be usable in bad weather - a _really_ bad > failure mode - so the manufacturers tend to go for the "safer" option. > I'd imagine that you could use an adjustable bypass valve around a > high-advantage steering pump to trade off feel for leverage, but it's > one more thing that can fail... > > I've considered having hydraulic systems on board - I really like the > power characteristics and the reliability of hydraulics. The thing is, > they mostly rely on power (pressure) being generated somewhere nearby, > and there aren't any solar cells or wind generators that do that, at > least without double conversion losses. :) Besides, if I was going to > use them, I'd want to carry the full kit of tools and spares that's > necessary for building new hoses - and that requires a fairly large > outlay. Not impossible, and I've definitely spent some time noodling on > the issue - but it's not something to just lightly add to a boat. > > When I was in Boqueron, Puerto Rico, I installed a radio control system > on a largish steel sailboat, the "Viking Elizabeth"; the owner wanted to > be able to control both the wheel and the throttle while working on > deck. As I recall, I hooked him up with a top-quality, water-resistant > controller from a model airplane store; it had a ~4" steering wheel and > a long slider that I used as the throttle. He had already done the > mechanical end of the job, but he mentioned that it had been fairly easy > due to having hydraulic steering in the first place. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11849|11832|2006-09-29 14:13:14|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:42:25PM -0300, jim dorey wrote: > > http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Hydraulics/Hydraul.htm the setup for motorcycle control via > hydraulics, seems relevant. Not exactly on subject, but - the author of the above explores my favorite dream of coupling power on a boat and the very reason I've put a bunch of thought into hydraulics in the first place: hydraulic drive. It's not magic... but all the positive issues of it that he discusses certainly make it seem that way. On a boat, you could mount the engine in pretty much whatever orientation you wanted; engine-to-shaft alignment problems would essentially disappear; you woudn't need a transmission, since with hydraulics, you essentially get an infinitely-variable ratio transmission just for using a pump/motor couple with valving between them... Great stuff. I've heard of commercial Swedish fishermen using this kind of a setup on their boats, along with variable-pitch props: given that the engine always runs at a constant RPM (somewhere near the center of the efficiency curve), its service life and MTBF is greatly increased. Given the price and availability of hydraulic motors as compared to the average marine transmission, there's also a good chance of saving a good chunk of change with this system. I will admit, though, that I'd never thought of putting it on a motorcycle! > there's a way of putting feedback on any set of controls, the cheap > gamer steering wheels can be pulled apart and mounted in waterproof > boxes, they'll last a decade or so. Good point. Those gamer boxes are _all_ about the UI, feel and smoothness and zero backlash, and at this point all of those are just commodity features (what I like to call "known science".) > for a lark you might even go for fly by > wire steering, but i don't know if it's reliable enough for everybody. Make sure you have a line of sight from any conceivable on-board station to your receiving antenna if you do. :) A Faraday box, which is pretty much what a well-grounded steel boat is, isn't very kind to radio signals. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11850|11832|2006-09-29 14:35:32|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 05:48:50PM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > On the bad weather trip from Vancouver to LA that I've referred to > several times, my brother had talked me into installing a wagner > system on the 53-54 footer (never was sure exactly how long it was:) > and it ended up probably saving us as he over bought a HUGE unit which > saved the helmsman from having to fight the waves hour after hour. Of > course it had no feel whatsoever but it DID have a remote on a cable > that you could use to go forward and operate pretty much the whole > drive system while fooling with the groundtackle :) I'm going to make > sure i can do much the same on the new boat. Come to think of it, I recall repairing a big Wagner AP's compass electronics on a 45' boat (somewhere in the Caribbean; the exact details have faded with time); the owner flat-out refused to consider a "modern" replacement despite the estimated cost of fixing the old unit. After working on it - a pleasure, by the way, since the PC board was laid out with ease of service in mind - I understood his point: pretty much no matter what he paid, he was unlikely to get a unit of the same quality (and would have paid over $10k to get that much torque, anyway.) There was only one other electronics manufacturer - again, I don't recall the name, but their equipment is commonly used by the US Merchant Marine service - whose units were made that well and with that degree of sturdiness. Unfortunately, most marine electronics these days are made to look pretty rather than working well. The best fix that I could offer Autohelm AP owners - and that was a monotonously common part of my business while I was cruising - was to either a) replace their blown driver transistors (fried due to overloading in rough weather), or, when their APs started randomly spinning them around while underway, b) soak their boards in alcohol, scrub them with a toothbrush to get rid of the moisture and the salt buildup, spray them with Teflon grease, and advise replacement ASAP - not that there was anything better to replace them with. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11851|11832|2006-09-29 15:13:21|khooper_fboats|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|> Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. Are you sure, I'm not really convinced. This might be true if both the joystick and the tiller had the same throw, but there's no necessary reason to do that...I could be wrong. Anyway, a spiral cam on the wheel should be able to take care of any mechanical advantage issues. Essentially a very large, coarse screw. Of course I suspect that would annihilate any feedback which may have been present, which was the point of the excercise in the first place. =^) I do intend to try to get this worked out (non-powered hydraulic steering with at least some feedback using inexpensive hydraulic parts) and use it on the 45 if it is possible. --Ken| 11852|11832|2006-09-29 15:53:28|seeratlas|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Ken, cheapest and simplest I've seen are tractor parts, tho I suppose if you knew someone in the fork lift industy maybe their industrial prices would be lower. The problem is metallurgy...going to have to be top quality stuff to let you sleep at night. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > > Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. > > Are you sure, I'm not really convinced. This might be true if both the > joystick and the tiller had the same throw, but there's no necessary > reason to do that...I could be wrong. > > Anyway, a spiral cam on the wheel should be able to take care of any > mechanical advantage issues. Essentially a very large, coarse screw. > Of course I suspect that would annihilate any feedback which may have > been present, which was the point of the excercise in the first place. =^) > > I do intend to try to get this worked out (non-powered hydraulic > steering with at least some feedback using inexpensive hydraulic > parts) and use it on the 45 if it is possible. > > --Ken > | 11853|11853|2006-09-29 18:26:29|seeratlas|Trinidad|http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2006-08-05-1 seer please note the appearance of the police, coast guard, and newspapers at the meetings| 11854|11854|2006-09-30 12:29:55|seeratlas|Great Armchair Cruising info|In doing a search on marine mayhem came across the site of a couple of I believe texans who were 'out and about' six years or so. For some reason the main site, www.heartsong3.com won't come up on my puter, however if you google heartsong3 and go for the 'cache' version, it comes up , go figure. In any event its a huge site with a ton of information about everywhere they went, equipt, advice, stories, etc. Not a bad way to spend a rainy night on shore reading up and fantasizing:) CAVEAT: these people used a big boat, and went 'top dollar', i.e., a Hylas 54, and accordingly had all the crap one might imagine onboard, but the writer is clear, rational and thoughtful about her descriptions and recommendations. Her descriptions of harbors and events and conditions are well done and worth reading. Most can skip the washer/drier stuff tho :) hehehe. seer| 11855|11832|2006-09-30 13:35:59|edward_stoneuk|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Hi Ken, I am not totally sure, I haven't considered it at depth as, although some of the posts on this thread have made me think how it will stand up to severe sea conditions, I will probably use Brent's system of a joy stick and autopilot or wind vane coupled to a trim tab on the rudder. This is a servo assist system that uses the force of the water past the trim tab to turn the rudder. I have an aft cockpit so have a direct tiller. I was thinking of how an automobile jack works where a lot of manual pumps are needed to lift the auto a few inches. If one was to lift the same vehicle using a pole lever over a rock fulcrum, then one needs the rock close to the car and depending on the weight of the car and person pushing down, a lever 10' or more long. The lever has to be pushed down a lot for the vehicle to be lifted a little. One can get mechanical advantage using a ram to ram system by having two different diameter rams, but there is still the problem of the amount of force needed to move the joystick or wheel with a short lever that will then move the rudder which needs a long lever (tiller) to turn it. Also the hydraulic fluid has a damping effect similar to oil filled suspension dampers. If one is to go the power assist route as with an automobile then one would need the engine running all the time as in an automobile. One is aware how difficult steering and braking is in a vehicle when its being towed with the engine off. Regards, Ted| 11856|11832|2006-09-30 20:22:50|brentswain38|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Silas Crosby put a tiller on it's own bearings mounted on the front of the aft cabin, then hooked it up with ss sch 40 one inch pipe linkages to the rudder head . It works well and is simple and inexpensive. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Ken, > Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. > Regards, > Ted > | 11857|11832|2006-09-30 20:48:04|khooper_fboats|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > some of the posts on this thread have made me think how it will stand > up to severe sea conditions, I will probably use Brent's system of a > joy stick and autopilot or wind vane coupled to a trim tab on the > rudder. This is a servo assist system that uses the force of the > water past the trim tab to turn the rudder. I have an aft cockpit so > have a direct tiller. Well can you talk more about that, because that is just the system that would concern me the most in heavy seas where perhaps the boat's speed is erratic because of waves and the boat is tending to yaw. I would want to be able to force the rudder over under those circumstances, hovering at the top of a wave waiting to surf, etc. And I do not want to be outside leaning on a tiller then. =^ ) If I were building a BS boat I might rather have a solid shaft system with rack & pinion. Might consider that for the center-cockpit 45 as well. There would actually be no more gear work than for an aft-cabin boat, just longer shaft runs. Big bronze rack & pinions are insanely expensive but I think it would be pretty easy to mill one. --Ken| 11858|11832|2006-09-30 20:56:51|David A. Frantz|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Most of my experience with hydraulics and electrics have been industrial based but I suspect that that expereince would be applicable to ships also. First many of the features of hydraulics that you mention below are a reality but there are a number of other issues that I see as beign big negatives. One is that you need to store a hydraulic oil some place in a reservoir. The size of that resevoir varies depends on a number of things, but shouldn't be discounted. Second you need a seperate system for cooling that oil. Third is the issue of leaks and maintenance which is significant. Beyound that there is the issue of efficiency. On the other hand electric drive systems have far fewer issues to contend with. In industry we have seen a rather significant move to electric systems, where it can be accomplished, due to efficencies and reliability. From what I can gather there is a similar shift in the commercial shipping industry also. At this point any boat of mind is but a dream, but in those dreams electric drive systems play a part. As for rudder control I do wonder what these systems are like as I could see entirely manual systems. That is turning of the wheel actually runs a pump to move the rudder actuator back and forth. It should be possible to get good feedback with a system like this. The hydraulic system in effect replaces the cabling of a more traditional system. Dave Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:42:25PM -0300, jim dorey wrote: > > > > http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Hydraulics/Hydraul.htm > the setup > for motorcycle control via > > hydraulics, seems relevant. > > Not exactly on subject, but - the author of the above explores my > favorite dream of coupling power on a boat and the very reason I've put > a bunch of thought into hydraulics in the first place: hydraulic drive. > It's not magic... but all the positive issues of it that he discusses > certainly make it seem that way. On a boat, you could mount the engine > in pretty much whatever orientation you wanted; engine-to-shaft > alignment problems would essentially disappear; you woudn't need a > transmission, since with hydraulics, you essentially get an > infinitely-variable ratio transmission just for using a pump/motor > couple with valving between them... Great stuff. I've heard of > commercial Swedish fishermen using this kind of a setup on their boats, > along with variable-pitch props: given that the engine always runs at a > constant RPM (somewhere near the center of the efficiency curve), its > service life and MTBF is greatly increased. Given the price and > availability of hydraulic motors as compared to the average marine > transmission, there's also a good chance of saving a good chunk of > change with this system. > > I will admit, though, that I'd never thought of putting it on a > motorcycle! > > > there's a way of putting feedback on any set of controls, the cheap > > gamer steering wheels can be pulled apart and mounted in waterproof > > boxes, they'll last a decade or so. > > Good point. Those gamer boxes are _all_ about the UI, feel and > smoothness and zero backlash, and at this point all of those are just > commodity features (what I like to call "known science".) > > > for a lark you might even go for fly by > > wire steering, but i don't know if it's reliable enough for everybody. > > Make sure you have a line of sight from any conceivable on-board station > to your receiving antenna if you do. :) A Faraday box, which is pretty > much what a well-grounded steel boat is, isn't very kind to radio > signals. > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 11859|11859|2006-10-01 02:02:14|jim_both|running lines aft to pilothouse|Sailboats are often setup to tweak sails from the cockpit by running halyards and furler lines aft. These can then be controlled from the cockpit, often under the shelter of a bimini or seahood. Does anybody have any ideas how these lines could be run to control them from inside the pilothouse? Cheers, Jim| 11860|11859|2006-10-01 12:46:15|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: running lines aft to pilothouse|On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 05:58:40AM -0000, jim_both wrote: > Sailboats are often setup to tweak sails from the cockpit by running > halyards and furler lines aft. These can then be controlled from the > cockpit, often under the shelter of a bimini or seahood. Does > anybody have any ideas how these lines could be run to control them > from inside the pilothouse? The typical configuration consists of several turning blocks at the base of the mast, some sort of a gasket/fiddle combination where the line enters the pilothouse, and a pair of banks of line clutches in the pilothouse. This usually requires a "California reefing" (a.k.a. "slab" or "jiffy" reefing") set up. All around, a fairly expensive proposition - but worth considering if you can get the expensive bits (i.e., the special boom and the clutches) for a reasonable price. I'm not at all a fan of the average plastic boat today, but a few years ago, I saw a Benneteau 50 that was being used in the Caribbean charter trade. The way the factory had done the above job was just exemplary, and worth studying. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11861|11832|2006-10-01 17:59:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Hi Ken, I cannot talk anymore about the use of a trim tab in severe sea conditions, because I have no experience of it, but I would be grateful if those who have experience could. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > some of the posts on this thread have made me think how it will stand > > up to severe sea conditions, I will probably use Brent's system of a > > joy stick and autopilot or wind vane coupled to a trim tab on the > > rudder. This is a servo assist system that uses the force of the > > water past the trim tab to turn the rudder. I have an aft cockpit so > > have a direct tiller. > > Well can you talk more about that, because that is just the system > that would concern me the most in heavy seas where perhaps the boat's > speed is erratic because of waves and the boat is tending to yaw. I > would want to be able to force the rudder over under those > circumstances, hovering at the top of a wave waiting to surf, etc. And > I do not want to be outside leaning on a tiller then. =^ ) > > If I were building a BS boat I might rather have a solid shaft system > with rack & pinion. Might consider that for the center-cockpit 45 as > well. There would actually be no more gear work than for an aft- cabin > boat, just longer shaft runs. Big bronze rack & pinions are insanely > expensive but I think it would be pretty easy to mill one. > > --Ken > | 11862|11862|2006-10-02 21:44:12|seeratlas|Why not an origami full canoe stern?|I guess this is targeted again to Brent, query being, did you ever consider a double ender or even a full canoe stern? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on plusses/minuses of those designs for origami construction. seer| 11863|11862|2006-10-03 04:46:46|sae140|Re: Why not an origami full canoe stern?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > I guess this is targeted again to Brent, query being, did you ever > consider a double ender or even a full canoe stern? I'd be interested > in hearing your thoughts on plusses/minuses of those designs for > origami construction. > > seer > Seer - just in case you haven't seen it - there's a pic of a double- ender in the /Files section. 'Bella Via of Comox'. Colin| 11864|11862|2006-10-03 12:05:28|seeratlas|Re: Why not an origami full canoe stern?|Thanks colin, i'll take a look at that. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > I guess this is targeted again to Brent, query being, did you ever > > consider a double ender or even a full canoe stern? I'd be > interested > > in hearing your thoughts on plusses/minuses of those designs for > > origami construction. > > > > seer > > > > Seer - just in case you haven't seen it - there's a pic of a double- > ender in the /Files section. 'Bella Via of Comox'. Colin > | 11865|11865|2006-10-03 19:26:31|tom|keel placment and balance|Hello All The progress on my 26 is going slow and I need to go sailing " going through withdralls" so I am working on my merit 23 hadn't been in the water a couple years, swapped out the keel it had a wing keel at 5' draft, downright scary in waves but I found a fin keel for it and put it in, anyway I am adjusting it to the boat, is there a rule of thumb on balance, I mean closer to mast centerline induce more or less weatherhelm and same with rake of fin keel ? I cant ask the builder his business went up his nose in the 80's and last I heard he was looking out bars. Any help appreciated Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11869|11869|2006-10-05 23:22:04|melanielauzon7777|Brent Swain 36' "Island Breeze" FOR SALE IN FIJI|Hey Guys, Wow, Thanks for your overwhelming interest in Island Breeze, the Brent Swain Bilge Keeler currently in Fiji. Short and sweet, here'e the deal...We are willing to sell Island Breeze in Fiji, thus avoiding Cedric having to sail her back alone and allowing Ced to get back to business in hawaii ASAP. Once she is back in Hawaii the hard work of getting her here is done and we'll keep her and sail her around the islands. No doubt this will weed out the seriously interested or at least tell us which of you is impulsive and crazy!Reasonable? But it is where we are at this time. Aloha From Sunny Hawaii Very Serious Inquiries may call us at 808 990 0947, leave a message and we'll return your call so please leave good days and time3s to reach you.Ced leaves for Fiji to start re-rigging on November 2nd and will sail out of Fiji on or around Dec.1st (El Nino Permitting) Melanie| 11870|11870|2006-10-07 10:46:34|seeratlas|Steel double ender by Jay Benford, classic...|http://www.johnsonyachts.co.nz/ben45.htm was scanning for some new ideas on bowsprits, etc. and came across this Jay Benford steel design built in NZ. imho the interior photo's especially are worth looking at, I really like the simple/ clean and light colored interior. Looks very livable. Tho this is a frame design, its one of those that would make a relatively easy transition to origami. In any event, something to look at. Nice detail work by the builder. seer| 11871|11870|2006-10-08 04:31:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Steel double ender by Jay Benford, classic...|Hi Seer, That is a beautiful boat. Jay Benford certainly has an eye for designing beautiful boats. The use of white paint, light coloured wood and mahogany detailing makes for a very pleasant interior indeed. To our view too much dark wood makes the inside of a boat too claustrophobic and coffin like for comfort. I note too that it has a cowl on the pilot house roof to provide a vertical door to the companionway. Regards, Ted| 11872|11870|2006-10-08 15:02:08|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Steel double ender by Jay Benford, classic...|Hi Seer, Thanks for the nice comments. She is a beautiful boat and I was the project manager for her while I worked for Johnson Yachts (2002 - 2004). However, she is hopelessly over weight owing to the owner instance on having every conceivable doodad that exists on board. The boat is the very antithesis of what this group is all about and as for the way it is built, Brent would die laughing. But despite all of that, she is a beautiful boat and she sails remarkably well. Paul seeratlas wrote: > http://www.johnsonyachts.co.nz/ben45.htm > > was scanning for some new ideas on bowsprits, etc. and came across > this Jay Benford steel design built in NZ. imho the interior photo's > especially are worth looking at, I really like the simple/ clean and > light colored interior. Looks very livable. Tho this is a frame > design, its one of those that would make a relatively easy transition > to origami. In any event, something to look at. Nice detail work by > the builder. > > seer > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11873|11873|2006-10-08 20:22:54|Jim Douglas|Re-Fit of 25 year old Steel Sailboat|The following post will be of interest to anybody buying an older Swain boat which is in need of repair. My chief concern is to stabilize the boat by removing all of the rust and old paint which exists both inside and outside of the hull. Also its evident that the hull has rusted thru in one or two spots. In the main the boat has been judged by others in the know to be well worth saving. I have recently had a boat repair specialist from the Island recommend the use of an idustrial paint remover (more environmentally friendly than sand blasting)for use in the external areas of the boat and expoxy for the inside of the boat plus expoxy and fiberglass for the keel are especially where the lead ballast is to be placed. A primer would be put on immediately after the exterior was cleaned. I gathered that he proposed to wire brush only the really badly rusted areas before applying the primer or the expoxy inside the boat. Existing thin areas and actual holes would be cut out and inserts welded back in as per normal proceedure. He went on to say that the expoxy penetrates and bonds incredably well with rusted steel, and when cured, seals the steel from both water and air.....Sounds O.K. He was very specfic about the use of expoxy rather than the regular fibreglass resin and that it would stick virtually forever and other paint systems could be painted on top. I know how well expoxy proctects and sticks to plywood. I know those in the fishing industry will resort to the ocassional fibreglass patch on steel, but....expoxy the whole interior?? My boat is 36 feet long. I haven't been presented with an actual quote as yet but the way he was talking indicated something towards the heavy end of $10 - $15K !!! (there is foam to be removed from the inside as well). Has anybody heard of this? The justification for the cost was primarily the amount of labour hours involved with the cost of material (paint remover, expoxy, fiberglass and primer runing as high a 50% of the total labour. From other prior posts I have read that sandblasting the exterior of a boat this size should/could be done in a day. Spray painting with POR 15 shouldn't take that long but call that a day as well. My boat is smaller than Brent's 36 by virtue of a lessor beam but has a full keel. How many gallons of paint and primer would a fellow go thru on a boat the size of mine? Oh, I should mention that she was traditionally framed when built and getting the steel under the frames protected in the interior is a concern. In this case expoxy might saturate these areas better???? I have a sneeking suspicion that sand blasting inside and out would be a way more economic if not more respected when it come time to sell the boat. If anybody has any thoughts on this I would appreciate your comments. Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C.| 11874|11870|2006-10-08 21:31:24|seeratlas|Re: Steel double ender by Jay Benford, classic...|I have a book around here somewhere of Benford's early work in wood and ferro. His designs are damned salty, but almost uniformly heavy. Some of his aft great cabin designs are quite striking however. I was wondering if she can go to weather at all. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > > Hi Seer, > > Thanks for the nice comments. She is a beautiful boat and I was the > project manager for her while I worked for Johnson Yachts (2002 - 2004). > However, she is hopelessly over weight owing to the owner instance on > having every conceivable doodad that exists on board. The boat is the > very antithesis of what this group is all about and as for the way it > is built, Brent would die laughing. > > But despite all of that, she is a beautiful boat and she sails > remarkably well. > > Paul > > seeratlas wrote: > > http://www.johnsonyachts.co.nz/ben45.htm > > > > was scanning for some new ideas on bowsprits, etc. and came across > > this Jay Benford steel design built in NZ. imho the interior photo's > > especially are worth looking at, I really like the simple/ clean and > > light colored interior. Looks very livable. Tho this is a frame > > design, its one of those that would make a relatively easy transition > > to origami. In any event, something to look at. Nice detail work by > > the builder. > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > | 11875|11870|2006-10-08 22:09:41|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Steel double ender by Jay Benford, classic...|She can, and much better than you would expect. I have had her making six knots to the weather in 25 to 30 knots of wind (but fairly smooth water). seeratlas wrote: > I have a book around here somewhere of Benford's early work in wood > and ferro. His designs are damned salty, but almost uniformly heavy. > Some of his aft great cabin designs are quite striking however. > > I was wondering if she can go to weather at all. > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > >> Hi Seer, >> >> Thanks for the nice comments. She is a beautiful boat and I was the >> project manager for her while I worked for Johnson Yachts (2002 - >> > 2004). > >> However, she is hopelessly over weight owing to the owner instance on >> having every conceivable doodad that exists on board. The boat is the >> very antithesis of what this group is all about and as for the way it >> is built, Brent would die laughing. >> >> But despite all of that, she is a beautiful boat and she sails >> remarkably well. >> >> Paul >> >> seeratlas wrote: >> >>> http://www.johnsonyachts.co.nz/ben45.htm >>> >>> was scanning for some new ideas on bowsprits, etc. and came across >>> this Jay Benford steel design built in NZ. imho the interior photo's >>> especially are worth looking at, I really like the simple/ clean and >>> light colored interior. Looks very livable. Tho this is a frame >>> design, its one of those that would make a relatively easy transition >>> to origami. In any event, something to look at. Nice detail work by >>> the builder. >>> >>> seer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Paul J. Thompson >> IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. >> (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) >> >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 11876|11832|2006-10-09 12:59:09|ryan tinsley|Re: Best Rudder steering on aft cabin boat? Opinions?|Seer, A quick note on an old topic. Hydrive an Aussie company the largest marine product distributor in the southern hemisphere specializes in hydraulic steering with feed back. They produce a manual helm pump with no check valves. With an 18" wheel and 4 turns lock to lock you have all the advantages without the no feed back draw back. To lock the wheel an in-line ball valve is placed by the helm and is simply closed. There is a U.S. outlet in NY with very helpful staff. seeratlas wrote: Ken, cheapest and simplest I've seen are tractor parts, tho I suppose if you knew someone in the fork lift industy maybe their industrial prices would be lower. The problem is metallurgy...going to have to be top quality stuff to let you sleep at night. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > > Its a case of gearing or mechanical advantage. You would need a > > joystick longer than the tiller to allow for friction losses in your > > hydraulic ram system and the joystick would have to have the same > > amount of room to pivot as the tiller when it goes hard over. A wheel > > has several turns to go hard over and this gearing makes it possible > > to turn the rudder with a small diameter wheel. > > Are you sure, I'm not really convinced. This might be true if both the > joystick and the tiller had the same throw, but there's no necessary > reason to do that...I could be wrong. > > Anyway, a spiral cam on the wheel should be able to take care of any > mechanical advantage issues. Essentially a very large, coarse screw. > Of course I suspect that would annihilate any feedback which may have > been present, which was the point of the excercise in the first place. =^) > > I do intend to try to get this worked out (non-powered hydraulic > steering with at least some feedback using inexpensive hydraulic > parts) and use it on the 45 if it is possible. > > --Ken > --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! MessengerÂ’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11877|11877|2006-10-10 21:16:39|tom|Mast on BS 26|Hello All I was just outside looking at some of the junk I have aquiard over the years and I have a nice aluminum mast and boom from a smaller boat, Its about 4' shorter than whats on the plan for the 26 and the boom is just a few inches short. anyway has me wondering about useing it on the 26 . Keeping the boat on lighter side for trailering IE not loaded down with a ton of crap could it be used and could a guy run slightly less balast ? the mast itself would be plenty strong its 3-1/4"x5" and it was an inline inboard rig + I have a bunch of sails that fit it. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11879|11877|2006-10-12 16:02:21|Alex Christie|Re: Mast on BS 26|You could possibly sleeve the mast and add 4 feet that way. The extra weight of the aluminum sleeve would be low down, close to the deck so it would not add a substantial weight perhaps? I wouldn't give up 4 feet of mast height -- you'll enjoy it in light airs for ghosting along instead of wallowing! But if a free mast and sails gets you sailing for now, who's to argue right? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mast on BS 26 Hello All I was just outside looking at some of the junk I have aquiard over the years and I have a nice aluminum mast and boom from a smaller boat, Its about 4' shorter than whats on the plan for the 26 and the boom is just a few inches short. anyway has me wondering about useing it on the 26 . Keeping the boat on lighter side for trailering IE not loaded down with a ton of crap could it be used and could a guy run slightly less balast ? the mast itself would be plenty strong its 3-1/4"x5" and it was an inline inboard rig + I have a bunch of sails that fit it. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/472 - Release Date: 10/11/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11880|11877|2006-10-12 20:26:59|tom|Re: Mast on BS 26|Hello Alex I did some rough figuring and I would be loosing about 50 to 60 square foot of sail under full sail, that is a lot for light airs but would be great in heavy air. I thought about adding to the bottom but the only problem is the spredders would have to be lowered and the same with the fixed gooseneck, I think the mast would end up looking like swiss cheese when finished. One option that I could think of is if I could find a matching section of mast and weld it to the top with a scarf joint like Brent mentioned for strenth then every thing would be real close to what is specked on the plans but the odds of finding a peice would be slim. More than likly I will just build a mast of steel but looking at the aluminum one that I have had me thinking sure would save a lot of time and $ Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Mast on BS 26 > You could possibly sleeve the mast and add 4 feet that way. The extra > weight of the aluminum sleeve would be low down, close to the deck so it > would not add a substantial weight perhaps? I wouldn't give up 4 feet of > mast height -- you'll enjoy it in light airs for ghosting along instead of > wallowing! But if a free mast and sails gets you sailing for now, who's > to argue right? > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:16 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Mast on BS 26 > > > Hello All > I was just outside looking at some of the junk I have aquiard over the > years and I have a nice aluminum mast and boom from a smaller boat, Its > about 4' shorter than whats on the plan for the 26 and the boom is just a > few inches short. > anyway has me wondering about useing it on the 26 . > Keeping the boat on lighter side for trailering IE not loaded down with a > ton of crap could it be used and could a guy run slightly less balast ? > the mast itself would be plenty strong its 3-1/4"x5" and it was an inline > inboard rig + I have a bunch of sails that fit it. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/472 - Release Date: > 10/11/2006 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 11881|11881|2006-10-12 20:43:41|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Giving back a little - blog/web space|I've been a lurker and not much of a poster on here for a good while... I'm still in the "idea" and "design choosing" stage of my boat building world, but wanted to see about giving a little back to the community that I've learned so much from. If any of you guys would like some web space/blog space/build log/cruising log type setup, please drop me a note. (Free, I'm not charging for this :-)) I have a blog/web page at www.craftacraft.com that I have hosted and pay for. It has plenty of capacity. If you would like to add a separate blog stream to it, or even discuss a totally separate page, let me know. Its based on easy to post (through the web... no software to install) software and you can upload pictures with thumbnails, links to other sites, whatever. As long as its clean and involves the types of boat-building that we discuss on this list, I'd be happy to talk with you. I intend to make the same offer to a couple of other boat communities that I'm involved with online. This isn't just for Origami builders... maybe we'll have a little cross polination (I know I see several of the same people on different lists). I do this web stuff for a living/hobby (mixture), and I enjoy it, but I know some people just want to be building boats and not messing with web pages, etc., but are willing to share what they have learned if its "easy" for them... I would like to try to make it easy. If you already have a solution that you use and are happy with, go for it! (send me a link... I would like to check it out :-)). Thanks for all the knowledge that you all are so willing to share! If nothing else, I post some various links and discussions on my page that you might find of interest. Thanks! Bruce| 11882|11877|2006-10-12 21:40:48|brentswain38|Re: Mast on BS 26|The 26 footer is designed to take a Soling mainsail which are a dime a dozen. Sleeving the mast you have wouldn't be difficult. You could still use the sails you have , then go looking for bigger ones when they wear out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I was just outside looking at some of the junk I have aquiard over the years and I have a nice aluminum mast and boom from a smaller boat, Its about 4' shorter than whats on the plan for the 26 and the boom is just a few inches short. > anyway has me wondering about useing it on the 26 . > Keeping the boat on lighter side for trailering IE not loaded down with a ton of crap could it be used and could a guy run slightly less balast ? the mast itself would be plenty strong its 3-1/4"x5" and it was an inline inboard rig + I have a bunch of sails that fit it. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11883|11859|2006-10-12 21:43:03|brentswain38|Re: running lines aft to pilothouse|You'd never get the holes where they enter th pilot house watertight. I once tried running the halyards to the cockpit. When I went to douse a sail , it would get halfway down, then the halyard would foul something in the cockpit and I would have to run back and free it with the sail flogging. This would be good until it got 2/3rds of the way down when it would foul again. I gave up on the idea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > Sailboats are often setup to tweak sails from the cockpit by running > halyards and furler lines aft. These can then be controlled from the > cockpit, often under the shelter of a bimini or seahood. Does > anybody have any ideas how these lines could be run to control them > from inside the pilothouse? > Cheers, Jim > | 11884|11873|2006-10-12 21:49:36|brentswain38|Re: Re-Fit of 25 year old Steel Sailboat|Jim Don't believe him. Sandblasting is the only way to go. When I had to sandblast the inside of a fin keel, I cut a hole about a foot by 6 inches in the aft lower corner to let the sand out. That was much easier than the alternatives. I sandblasted the piece I cut out , welded it back in after I had sandblasted the rest of the boat, and sandblasted around it inside and out. I used 30 gallons total of epoxy tar on my 31 footer , inside and out followed by several gallons of alkyd topcoat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > The following post will be of interest to anybody buying an older Swain > boat which is in need of repair. > > My chief concern is to stabilize the boat by removing all of the rust > and old paint which exists both inside and outside of the hull. Also > its evident that the hull has rusted thru in one or two spots. In the > main the boat has been judged by others in the know to be well worth > saving. > > I have recently had a boat repair specialist from the Island recommend > the use of an idustrial paint remover (more environmentally friendly > than sand blasting)for use in the external areas of the boat and expoxy > for the inside of the boat plus expoxy and fiberglass for the keel are > especially where the lead ballast is to be placed. > > A primer would be put on immediately after the exterior was cleaned. I > gathered that he proposed to wire brush only the really badly rusted > areas before applying the primer or the expoxy inside the boat. > > Existing thin areas and actual holes would be cut out and inserts > welded back in as per normal proceedure. > > He went on to say that the expoxy penetrates and bonds incredably well > with rusted steel, and when cured, seals the steel from both water and > air.....Sounds O.K. > > He was very specfic about the use of expoxy rather than the regular > fibreglass resin and that it would stick virtually forever and other > paint systems could be painted on top. > > I know how well expoxy proctects and sticks to plywood. I know those > in the fishing industry will resort to the ocassional fibreglass patch > on steel, but....expoxy the whole interior?? > > My boat is 36 feet long. I haven't been presented with an actual quote > as yet but the way he was talking indicated something towards the heavy > end of $10 - $15K !!! (there is foam to be removed from the inside as > well). > > Has anybody heard of this? The justification for the cost was > primarily the amount of labour hours involved with the cost of material > (paint remover, expoxy, fiberglass and primer runing as high a 50% of > the total labour. > > From other prior posts I have read that sandblasting the exterior of a > boat this size should/could be done in a day. Spray painting with POR > 15 shouldn't take that long but call that a day as well. My boat is > smaller than Brent's 36 by virtue of a lessor beam but has a full > keel. How many gallons of paint and primer would a fellow go thru on a > boat the size of mine? > > Oh, I should mention that she was traditionally framed when built and > getting the steel under the frames protected in the interior is a > concern. In this case expoxy might saturate these areas better???? > > I have a sneeking suspicion that sand blasting inside and out would be > a way more economic if not more respected when it come time to sell the > boat. > > If anybody has any thoughts on this I would appreciate your comments. > > Jim Douglas > North Vancouver, B.C. > | 11885|11877|2006-10-13 02:37:35|jim dorey|Re: Mast on BS 26|Alex Christie wrote: > > > You could possibly sleeve the mast and add 4 feet that way. The extra > weight of the aluminum sleeve would be low down, close to the deck so it > would not add a substantial weight perhaps? I wouldn't give up 4 feet of > mast height -- you'll enjoy it in light airs for ghosting along instead > of wallowing! But if a free mast and sails gets you sailing for now, > who's to argue right? > > Alex i was thinking of alternate rigging, lateen or something.| 11886|11873|2006-10-13 18:29:20|seeratlas|Re: Re-Fit of 25 year old Steel Sailboat|Weeeeelllll, since i don't yet have a steel boat, going to have to rely on my experience in working on rehabbing old 4x4's, many of which have rusted out rocker panels etc. I'm with Brent on this one as long as there is enough steel which would remain after blasting. In some cases I "have" wire brushed to knock off the loose rust and scale then used a chemical rust converter. The trick for me has been ensuring the rust is clean :) and when it is, I've had decent results. The chemical converters claim to convert the rust to a black inert material over which you are free to paint etc. I have differentials/axle tubes etc., and underbody panels six to ten years old that have not deteriorated further from the day that the above treatment was applied. On the other hand, if they were to rust out, the truck wouldn't sink --- accordingly for a boat, I think I would opt for the best possible repair if my life was on the line. :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Jim > Don't believe him. Sandblasting is the only way to go. > When I had to sandblast the inside of a fin keel, I cut a hole about > a foot by 6 inches in the aft lower corner to let the sand out. That > was much easier than the alternatives. I sandblasted the piece I cut > out , welded it back in after I had sandblasted the rest of the boat, > and sandblasted around it inside and out. > I used 30 gallons total of epoxy tar on my 31 footer , inside and out > followed by several gallons of alkyd topcoat. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > wrote: > > > > The following post will be of interest to anybody buying an older Swain > > boat which is in need of repair. > > > > My chief concern is to stabilize the boat by removing all of the rust > > and old paint which exists both inside and outside of the hull. Also > > its evident that the hull has rusted thru in one or two spots. In the > > main the boat has been judged by others in the know to be well worth > > saving. > > > > I have recently had a boat repair specialist from the Island recommend > > the use of an idustrial paint remover (more environmentally friendly > > than sand blasting)for use in the external areas of the boat and expoxy > > for the inside of the boat plus expoxy and fiberglass for the keel are > > especially where the lead ballast is to be placed. > > > > A primer would be put on immediately after the exterior was cleaned. I > > gathered that he proposed to wire brush only the really badly rusted > > areas before applying the primer or the expoxy inside the boat. > > > > Existing thin areas and actual holes would be cut out and inserts > > welded back in as per normal proceedure. > > > > He went on to say that the expoxy penetrates and bonds incredably well > > with rusted steel, and when cured, seals the steel from both water and > > air.....Sounds O.K. > > > > He was very specfic about the use of expoxy rather than the regular > > fibreglass resin and that it would stick virtually forever and other > > paint systems could be painted on top. > > > > I know how well expoxy proctects and sticks to plywood. I know those > > in the fishing industry will resort to the ocassional fibreglass patch > > on steel, but....expoxy the whole interior?? > > > > My boat is 36 feet long. I haven't been presented with an actual quote > > as yet but the way he was talking indicated something towards the heavy > > end of $10 - $15K !!! (there is foam to be removed from the inside as > > well). > > > > Has anybody heard of this? The justification for the cost was > > primarily the amount of labour hours involved with the cost of material > > (paint remover, expoxy, fiberglass and primer runing as high a 50% of > > the total labour. > > > > From other prior posts I have read that sandblasting the exterior of a > > boat this size should/could be done in a day. Spray painting with POR > > 15 shouldn't take that long but call that a day as well. My boat is > > smaller than Brent's 36 by virtue of a lessor beam but has a full > > keel. How many gallons of paint and primer would a fellow go thru on a > > boat the size of mine? > > > > Oh, I should mention that she was traditionally framed when built and > > getting the steel under the frames protected in the interior is a > > concern. In this case expoxy might saturate these areas better???? > > > > I have a sneeking suspicion that sand blasting inside and out would be > > a way more economic if not more respected when it come time to sell the > > boat. > > > > If anybody has any thoughts on this I would appreciate your comments. > > > > Jim Douglas > > North Vancouver, B.C. > > > | 11887|11877|2006-10-13 21:36:09|mark hamill|Re: Mast on BS 26|Phil Bolger wrote 100 sailing rigs or some similar title in which he goes through all the rig types pros and cons as he sees them, check it out. His series of boat design books include many unusual rigs with comments including the lateen. Look online. Great reading. Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > > You could possibly sleeve the mast and add 4 feet that way. The extra > > weight of the aluminum sleeve would be low down, close to the deck so it > > would not add a substantial weight perhaps? I wouldn't give up 4 feet of > > mast height -- you'll enjoy it in light airs for ghosting along instead > > of wallowing! But if a free mast and sails gets you sailing for now, > > who's to argue right? > > > > Alex > > i was thinking of alternate rigging, lateen or something. > | 11889|11877|2006-10-14 05:12:34|sae140|Re: Mast on BS 26|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > You could possibly sleeve the mast and add 4 feet that way. The extra weight of the aluminum sleeve would be low down, close to the deck so it would not add a substantial weight perhaps? I wouldn't give up 4 feet of mast height -- you'll enjoy it in light airs for ghosting along instead of wallowing! But if a free mast and sails gets you sailing for now, who's to argue right? > > Alex Another field-fix method of adding a few feet to aa ally mast is to make up a wooden tip, ensuring that the tip enters the top of the mast by a distance equal to at least x2 diameters. x3 is optimum. Obviously a lot depends on what kind of mainsail attachment method is being used. Works ok on junk and gaff rigs where parrels are used. Colin| 11891|11891|2006-10-14 12:47:16|Frank McNeill|An invitation to join the pop-pop-steamboats group|I'm trying to encourage development of radio controllable versions of the little tin pop-pop boats I remember playing with before WW2. I thought this might be done on a Yahoo discussion group, but finally decided the only way to find a group for discussions of pop-pop boats would be to start one. Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pop-pop-steamboats/ to see what it looks like, and please consider joining us because we need help from people who know how to build origami type boats. I'm also trying to get help from a guy who publishes plans for paper ship models that are a lot smaller than origami boats but similar to the extent that both begin with flat panels that have to be bent or folded and fastened together. Most paper boat models are of the waterline type so my paper model guy is interested in hull forming methods that could be used to make assembly of display models easier. There is a new kind of flatbed ink jet printer might be used to convert plans for paper models into plans for metal models. Go to: http://www.fastsigns.com/US-NC-Asheville-store241.html to visit a sign shop that has installed a printer of this kind. UV cured inks have been used to produce aluminum soda pop cans for more than a decade, but this new type of flatbed ink jet printer has taken it up a notch and might put a lot of people that do silk screen printing out of business, if a lot of print and sign shops install similar equipment. Best wishes, Frank McNeill| 11892|11892|2006-10-15 08:13:42|Bill Jaine|This should raise a few points|http://cgi.ebay.ca/World-Cruising-Mason-36-Sailboat-Monel-Steel-hull_W0QQitemZ150046138506QQihZ005QQcategoryZ63731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11893|11873|2006-10-15 23:00:23|peter_d_wiley|Re: Re-Fit of 25 year old Steel Sailboat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" wrote: > > My boat is 36 feet long. I haven't been presented with an actual quote > as yet but the way he was talking indicated something towards the heavy > end of $10 - $15K !!! (there is foam to be removed from the inside as > well). > > Has anybody heard of this? The justification for the cost was > primarily the amount of labour hours involved with the cost of material > (paint remover, expoxy, fiberglass and primer runing as high a 50% of > the total labour. > > From other prior posts I have read that sandblasting the exterior of a > boat this size should/could be done in a day. Spray painting with POR > 15 shouldn't take that long but call that a day as well. My boat is > smaller than Brent's 36 by virtue of a lessor beam but has a full > keel. How many gallons of paint and primer would a fellow go thru on a > boat the size of mine? > > Oh, I should mention that she was traditionally framed when built and > getting the steel under the frames protected in the interior is a > concern. In this case expoxy might saturate these areas better???? > > I have a sneeking suspicion that sand blasting inside and out would be > a way more economic if not more respected when it come time to sell the > boat. > > If anybody has any thoughts on this I would appreciate your comments. If you're the guy who was looking at buying a Colvin Witch, yeah, I have some comments. I priced the steel for a Witch hull (I have a set of plans) and it came in at around $9K AUD. The Canadian dollar is close to ours. Since then steel has risen by 20%. No way I'd pay the sort of money you've been quoted to fix the hull. I'd build a new hull instead and transfer all the other bits. Getting paint under the frames & longs is always going to be an issue. Boatbuilder here told me what he does is paint the hell out of it, using a *brush* to force the primer under the frames etc then use a compatible caulking compound along all the longs (assume you've cut drain holes where needed) to ensure the water doesn't get where you don't want it, and can drain to where you do want it. After you've caulked it all, you can overpaint with whatever you choose for an interior paint, many coats. Some of the new epoxy paints are certainly good & tough. They're also toxic as hell to apply and expensive. PDW| 11894|11894|2006-10-16 02:11:37|jim|please help me get a boat!|sign up its free all proceeds go to my boat ty! http://www.wowearnings.com/?r=jmcsworld| 11895|11892|2006-10-16 03:46:30|sae140|Re: This should raise a few points|Good link - interesting and unique boat. One thing puzzles me: having built a hull from cupro-nickel with it's inherent anti-fouling properties, why then paint over the cupro-nickel below the waterline ? Colin| 11896|11873|2006-10-16 05:02:53|Jim Douglas|Re: Re-Fit of 25 year old Steel Sailboat|Hey Brent,Seer and others, Thanks for your replies. I don't know if my life would be in that much danger as with rusting, I would anticipate a weeping kind of leak for quite sometime before any real torrent developed. But what your comments together with Brent's, Gerd's and others have confirmed is a confidence in the time honoured method of sand blasting to bare metal and then priming and painting over this....It's simply tried, tested and true as the ad ditty goes. On further reflection, I think this will be a plus when it comes time to sell the boat. But the bugger of it is that there isn't many places where one may legally sandblast paint and undercoating from a boat without arrousing the environmentalists/local government officials....which almost means having to turn to a "Marina" and literally hemoraging mega bucks to get a relatively simple job done. The point is thatI haven't got a plan "b" here and it obvious I really need one. Plan "b" would constitute having access to a rural re-fit site on the Island (Parksville area) or in the Lower Mainland (close to North Vancouver) where I could blast the p..s out of her myself (pard the French) and get the job done with minimal outlay. Contacts...Suggestions...Any leads...would/could help. Thanks again to all who graciously replied to my initial post notwithstanding that is was not directly on point with the Group's central topic. Still it's about steel and I most certainly do take 99% of my inspiration from you guys!! Thanks Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Weeeeelllll, > since i don't yet have a steel boat, going to have to rely on my > experience in working on rehabbing old 4x4's, many of which have > rusted out rocker panels etc. > > I'm with Brent on this one as long as there is enough steel which > would remain after blasting. In some cases I "have" wire brushed to > knock off the loose rust and scale then used a chemical rust > converter. The trick for me has been ensuring the rust is clean :) and > when it is, I've had decent results. The chemical converters claim to > convert the rust to a black inert material over which you are free to > paint etc. > > I have differentials/axle tubes etc., and underbody panels six to ten > years old that have not deteriorated further from the day that the > above treatment was applied. On the other hand, if they were to rust > out, the truck wouldn't sink --- accordingly for a boat, I think I > would opt for the best possible repair if my life was on the line. :) > > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Jim > > Don't believe him. Sandblasting is the only way to go. > > When I had to sandblast the inside of a fin keel, I cut a hole about > > a foot by 6 inches in the aft lower corner to let the sand out. That > > was much easier than the alternatives. I sandblasted the piece I cut > > out , welded it back in after I had sandblasted the rest of the boat, > > and sandblasted around it inside and out. > > I used 30 gallons total of epoxy tar on my 31 footer , inside and out > > followed by several gallons of alkyd topcoat. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Douglas" > > wrote: > > > > > > The following post will be of interest to anybody buying an older > Swain > > > boat which is in need of repair. > > > > > > My chief concern is to stabilize the boat by removing all of the rust > > > and old paint which exists both inside and outside of the hull. Also > > > its evident that the hull has rusted thru in one or two spots. In > the > > > main the boat has been judged by others in the know to be well worth > > > saving. > > > > > > I have recently had a boat repair specialist from the Island > recommend > > > the use of an idustrial paint remover (more environmentally friendly > > > than sand blasting)for use in the external areas of the boat and > expoxy > > > for the inside of the boat plus expoxy and fiberglass for the keel > are > > > especially where the lead ballast is to be placed. > > > > > > A primer would be put on immediately after the exterior was > cleaned. I > > > gathered that he proposed to wire brush only the really badly rusted > > > areas before applying the primer or the expoxy inside the boat. > > > > > > Existing thin areas and actual holes would be cut out and inserts > > > welded back in as per normal proceedure. > > > > > > He went on to say that the expoxy penetrates and bonds incredably > well > > > with rusted steel, and when cured, seals the steel from both water > and > > > air.....Sounds O.K. > > > > > > He was very specfic about the use of expoxy rather than the regular > > > fibreglass resin and that it would stick virtually forever and other > > > paint systems could be painted on top. > > > > > > I know how well expoxy proctects and sticks to plywood. I know those > > > in the fishing industry will resort to the ocassional fibreglass > patch > > > on steel, but....expoxy the whole interior?? > > > > > > My boat is 36 feet long. I haven't been presented with an actual > quote > > > as yet but the way he was talking indicated something towards the > heavy > > > end of $10 - $15K !!! (there is foam to be removed from the inside as > > > well). > > > > > > Has anybody heard of this? The justification for the cost was > > > primarily the amount of labour hours involved with the cost of > material > > > (paint remover, expoxy, fiberglass and primer runing as high a 50% of > > > the total labour. > > > > > > From other prior posts I have read that sandblasting the exterior > of a > > > boat this size should/could be done in a day. Spray painting with > POR > > > 15 shouldn't take that long but call that a day as well. My boat is > > > smaller than Brent's 36 by virtue of a lessor beam but has a full > > > keel. How many gallons of paint and primer would a fellow go thru > on a > > > boat the size of mine? > > > > > > Oh, I should mention that she was traditionally framed when built and > > > getting the steel under the frames protected in the interior is a > > > concern. In this case expoxy might saturate these areas better???? > > > > > > I have a sneeking suspicion that sand blasting inside and out > would be > > > a way more economic if not more respected when it come time to > sell the > > > boat. > > > > > > If anybody has any thoughts on this I would appreciate your comments. > > > > > > Jim Douglas > > > North Vancouver, B.C. > > > > > > | 11897|11897|2006-10-16 11:16:39|tracylove1023|Re: I found your profile interesting!|I just saw you on yahoo group and interested in you, I would like to be your friend! Please Check out my profile and contact me. http://connect.to/singlesclub| 11898|11898|2006-10-18 20:41:09|tom|zink primers|Hello All I have been sandblasting and priming in sections and I have noticed that the zink rich primer stays soft, I mean I can scrape it off with my fingernail after its been on a couple weeks. I even tryed different brands in spray cans and it is the same. I would have to say I am a little disapointed with it, its supposed to be equal to hot dip galvanizing but the hot dipped has a lot tuffer finish. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11899|11898|2006-10-18 20:49:31|Alex Christie|Re: zink primers|I put on Zinga on my keels and it hardened up well after a week or two. I expect to have good results when overcoating with paint. Higher zinc content than the cans, too (I have to wonder how much of the cans is just grey paint!). Zinga's solvent is very strong and gasses off quickly. The solvent is strong enough that it will make old Zinga bond with new, meaning the final coating will be continuous all over the boat. It's not cheap, but I think it'll protect the steel very well and save me grief in the long run. Alex On 18-Oct-06, at 5:33 PM, tom wrote: > Hello All > I have been sandblasting and priming in sections and I have noticed > that the zink rich primer stays soft, I mean I can scrape it off with > my fingernail after its been on a couple weeks. I even tryed different > brands in spray cans and it is the same. I would have to say I am a > little disapointed with it, its supposed to be equal to hot dip > galvanizing but the hot dipped has a lot tuffer finish. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11900|11898|2006-10-18 23:16:49|tom|Re: zink primers|Hello Alex The zinc primer I am useing is in the gallon can, supposed to be epoxy with 90% zinc when dry. I havent tryed zinga, called there rep here in the states and it seemed a little to pricey for me. I can buy a lot of epoxy for what a gallon of zinga cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im sure that wouldnt be cheap eather. I think I am going to pick up a couple gallons of the macro poxy 646 from sherwin williams and do some testing with it, from the test peices they showed me its some tuff and flexable stuff, its allso used buy a lot of commercial fishing guys. If it works out I may blast this zinc primer off and go with epoxy direct to metal when the time comes for final painting. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] zink primers >I put on Zinga on my keels and it hardened up well after a week or two. > I expect to have good results when overcoating with paint. Higher zinc > content than the cans, too (I have to wonder how much of the cans is > just grey paint!). Zinga's solvent is very strong and gasses off > quickly. The solvent is strong enough that it will make old Zinga bond > with new, meaning the final coating will be continuous all over the > boat. It's not cheap, but I think it'll protect the steel very well > and save me grief in the long run. > > Alex > > > On 18-Oct-06, at 5:33 PM, tom wrote: > >> Hello All >> I have been sandblasting and priming in sections and I have noticed >> that the zink rich primer stays soft, I mean I can scrape it off with >> my fingernail after its been on a couple weeks. I even tryed different >> brands in spray cans and it is the same. I would have to say I am a >> little disapointed with it, its supposed to be equal to hot dip >> galvanizing but the hot dipped has a lot tuffer finish. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11901|11898|2006-10-19 09:16:22|khooper_fboats|Re: zink primers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im sure that > wouldnt be cheap eather. Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as long as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for spare parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to be the cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. --Ken| 11902|11898|2006-10-20 02:39:36|jnikadie|Re: zink primers|Hey Ken, I've got me a gun too! Not sure if it even works, but I was thinking of experimenting with it. I'm toying with the idea of using it for the interior (aparently the zinc goes on too rough to end up with a nice finish, not a problem for the bilge and behind the foam I'm thinking, but I'm not so sure about the exterior ... any comments anyone?). Where do you get the zinc sticks from? I looked into the zinc-rich primers, but I'm not so sure ... I've read some trial results that suggest that it's very hard to get a good top coat over them without getting immediate blistering ... the zinc-oxide salts and/or solvents were blamed. In terms of avoiding corrosion, Zinga by itself fared fairly well (12 months salt water immersion test of painted panels with a score mark through the paint): "No corrosion was present at the scored area. The adhesion was fair to good. The coating was extremely powdery." http://www.cecer.army.mil/pl/catalog/catalogs/paint/CPC/Zinga4.pdf --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im > sure that > > wouldnt be cheap eather. > > Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as long > as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for spare > parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you > have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you > the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to be the > cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. > > --Ken > | 11903|11903|2006-10-20 03:23:29|filadelfiaa2002|rhino users|please send me the site key for a "SITE CODE : 4825 6A39 B2AA D9CA 89" thanks.| 11904|11898|2006-10-20 13:34:24|khooper_fboats|Re: zink primers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > Where do you get the zinc sticks from? Actually I think it uses wire (there are models that use powder too I believe). I haven't tried to buy any yet but would ask at the welding supply I suppose. I've seen references to the zinc wire costing around $7.00 per kilo and coverage @ 1 mil .71 sq foot per pound so for a 3 mil coating would be roughly 50c per square foot if I'm doing the math right. Not including gas costs. I think a 3 mil coating would be very heavy for boatbuilding? It probably says in the Klingel book, I'll check later. --Ken| 11905|11898|2006-10-20 19:16:59|brentswain38|Re: zink primers|Flame spray is great for exteriors. It is as rough as fine sandpaper, perfect for paint adhesion. If it gets any rougher it's time to take it apart and clean the orfices with a tip cleaner, something which should be done frequently . Greater heat buildup is another sign that it needs cleaning. Aluminium works better and is more corrosion resistant than zinc. It costs more per pound , but being much lighter than Zinc ,it takes fewer pounds . Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > > cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im > > sure that > > > wouldnt be cheap eather. > > > > Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as long > > as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for spare > > parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you > > have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you > > the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to be the > > cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. > > > > --Ken > > > | 11906|11898|2006-10-20 19:17:40|brentswain38|Re: zink primers|It uses a wire in a coil. Google Metco for more info. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > > Where do you get the zinc sticks from? > > Actually I think it uses wire (there are models that use powder too I > believe). I haven't tried to buy any yet but would ask at the welding > supply I suppose. I've seen references to the zinc wire costing around > $7.00 per kilo and coverage @ 1 mil .71 sq foot per pound so for a 3 > mil coating would be roughly 50c per square foot if I'm doing the math > right. Not including gas costs. I think a 3 mil coating would be very > heavy for boatbuilding? It probably says in the Klingel book, I'll > check later. > > --Ken > | 11907|11898|2006-10-20 20:02:08|tom|Re: zink primers|Hello Ken Thanks for the offer I may take you up on it. I am going to do a little testing on what's on there already and if I'm not happy with it then I will go the flame spray rout . I was just reading up on flame spraying in one of the boatbuilding with steel books and from they are saying you want to go .003 to .004" thick, I'm not sure how that converts to mils. They also say if sprayed right its finish is equivalent to a fine sandpaper, heck the zinc primer aint much better after spraying. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zink primers > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im > sure that >> wouldnt be cheap eather. > > Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as long > as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for spare > parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you > have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you > the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to be the > cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. > > --Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11908|11898|2006-10-20 22:33:32|racer577@citystar.com|Re: zink primers|.001" = 1 mil of paint thickness = 25 um John > Hello Ken > Thanks for the offer I may take you up on it. I am going to do a little > testing on what's on there already and if I'm not happy with it then I > will > go the flame spray rout . > I was just reading up on flame spraying in one of the boatbuilding with > steel books and from they are saying you want to go .003 to .004" thick, > I'm > not sure how that converts to mils. They also say if sprayed right its > finish is equivalent to a fine sandpaper, heck the zinc primer aint much > better after spraying. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "khooper_fboats" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:07 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zink primers > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >>> cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im >> sure that >>> wouldnt be cheap eather. >> >> Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as long >> as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for spare >> parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you >> have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you >> the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to be the >> cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. >> >> --Ken >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> > > | 11909|11898|2006-10-21 09:34:46|khooper_fboats|Re: zink primers|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > I was just reading up on flame spraying in one of the boatbuilding with > steel books and from they are saying you want to go .003 to .004" thick We may be referring to the same book, Gilbert Klingell in "Boatbuilding With Steel" (who regards flame spraying as simply the only effective way to keep rust off a boat in the long run, including below the waterline) says to put it on 3 to 4 mils thick. He also says one man can lay the stuff down at a rate over 900 sf per hour. Of course if you are singlehanded and have to blast at the same time it would slow you to a crawl, but that's true for a painted coating too I guess. --Ken| 11910|11898|2006-10-21 18:31:59|tom|Re: zink primers|Yep same book, He sure makes it sound easy. For a first time doer without anyone showing you the little tricks to it , I am sure it would take a while longer than the 900 sq ft a hour. That holds true on all of it cutting, welding, fitup even the sandblating. I have heard on here that a 36 footer can be blasted in one day well I would say good luck on that there is no way I could do it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 6:32 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: zink primers > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> I was just reading up on flame spraying in one of the boatbuilding > with >> steel books and from they are saying you want to go .003 to .004" thick > > We may be referring to the same book, Gilbert Klingell in > "Boatbuilding With Steel" (who regards flame spraying as simply the > only effective way to keep rust off a boat in the long run, including > below the waterline) says to put it on 3 to 4 mils thick. > > He also says one man can lay the stuff down at a rate over 900 sf per > hour. Of course if you are singlehanded and have to blast at the same > time it would slow you to a crawl, but that's true for a painted > coating too I guess. > > --Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11912|11898|2006-10-23 11:31:33|seeratlas|Re: zink primers|Brent, I've heard several people comment on spraying aluminum over the steel. My question is what about galvanic reaction? Don't you get the same corrosion you'd get by bolting an aluminum fitting to the steel deck? I assume not or you wouldn't mention it, but why not? No oxy between the alu and steel when its flame sprayed? Thanks in advance. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Flame spray is great for exteriors. It is as rough as fine sandpaper, > perfect for paint adhesion. If it gets any rougher it's time to take > it apart and clean the orfices with a tip cleaner, something which > should be done frequently . Greater heat buildup is another sign that > it needs cleaning. > Aluminium works better and is more corrosion resistant than zinc. It > costs more per pound , but being much lighter than Zinc ,it takes > fewer pounds . > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > > > > cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im > > > sure that > > > > wouldnt be cheap eather. > > > > > > Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as long > > > as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for spare > > > parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you > > > have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you > > > the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to be the > > > cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. > > > > > > --Ken > > > > > > | 11913|11913|2006-10-23 11:49:53|tom|BS 26 sandblasting progress|Hello All FYI I have used about 4000 pound of sand to sandblast the outside of the 26, It takes a lot to knock off mill scale and rust to clean white steel . I am using 30 silica sand could have used a little coarser but how deep of pits can you afford to put in 10 and 12 gage steel . I have tried different blasters and compressor combinations from big to small and I ended up building my own blaster out of a 100 gallon butane tank, It works good and is a lot more efficient than any I tried. The blaster itself was cheap to build but the blast hose a nozzle were about $300 US but that was for a 3/16" tungsten carbide nozzle. For the compressor I bought an old Quincy piston type rated at around 50 CFM and with a 50 ft hose to a water separator and a 25 ft to blaster it maintains 80 psi of clean dry air at the blaster, it likes the gas though about 3 gallons for 400 pounds of sand. It sure aint cheap or fast sandblasting but a least its done right. I found that the little harbor freight presser pot blasters work ok for small touchup jobs but for anything larger they are a pain in the A-- Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11914|11913|2006-10-23 13:56:34|Ray|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: Tom - If it's convenient for you to do so, I'd sure enjoy seeing photos of this contraption you've made - Ray Kimbro | 11915|11913|2006-10-23 15:16:25|tom|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|Hello Ray I posted a couple pictures of it in origamiboats2 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > Tom - > > If it's convenient for you to do so, I'd sure enjoy seeing photos of > this contraption you've made - > > Ray Kimbro > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11916|11913|2006-10-23 15:57:44|Ray|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Ray > I posted a couple pictures of it in origamiboats2 > Tom Thanks Tom - dumb question: Where's the sand pickup from the barrel? I see the hose on the side, but, dumb me thinks that the sand pickup should be near the bottom?| 11917|11913|2006-10-23 16:23:54|tom|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|It is hard to see in the picture but yes the sand comes out the bottom, it is a pressure pot blaster. Let me take a couple more pictures of the top and bottom then you can see its a pretty simple setup and it will hold 200 pounds of sand with no problem. I kept it short and fat for ease of filling it. I have an old sanstorm blaster here but its about 5' tall and was killing my back filling it with 100 pound sacks Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Ray >> I posted a couple pictures of it in origamiboats2 >> Tom > > Thanks Tom - dumb question: Where's the sand pickup from the barrel? I > see the hose on the side, but, dumb me thinks that the sand pickup > should be near the bottom? > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11918|11913|2006-10-23 16:32:29|tom|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|posted a couple more pictures of it in origamiboats2 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress > It is hard to see in the picture but yes the sand comes out the bottom, it > is a pressure pot blaster. Let me take a couple more pictures of the top > and > bottom then you can see its a pretty simple setup and it will hold 200 > pounds of sand with no problem. I kept it short and fat for ease of > filling > it. I have an old sanstorm blaster here but its about 5' tall and was > killing my back filling it with 100 pound sacks > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 12:53 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >>> >>> Hello Ray >>> I posted a couple pictures of it in origamiboats2 >>> Tom >> >> Thanks Tom - dumb question: Where's the sand pickup from the barrel? I >> see the hose on the side, but, dumb me thinks that the sand pickup >> should be near the bottom? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11919|11913|2006-10-23 17:05:03|Ray|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > posted a couple more pictures of it in origamiboats2 > Tom Thanks - I get it now! I was expecting to see some kind of siphon/pickup action, .vs. gravity dropping the sand into the airstream. Thanks! Ray| 11920|1565|2006-10-23 17:36:40|tom|sandblasting|Hello All I was wandering, when sandblasting the inside of the boat how the heck can you see anything . I am finishing the bottom of the cockpit and having a heck of a time, after about 5 minuts there is so much sand its blowing everywhere and cant see what I am doing ? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11921|1565|2006-10-23 18:11:01|Gerd|Re: sandblasting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I was wandering, when sandblasting the inside of the boat how the heck can you see anything You cant ;-) Its like diving in mud. I had been following your postings and had not realized that you had not done the inside first - sorry to hear you still have it coming. After 3 minutes you have a visibility range of 15 cm, you have to get so close that your glass gets blasted as well and you have to change it all the time. Get plenty. It's hell. Evacuating the sand: on the last boat I simply cut a big hole in the bottom and welded it shut afterwards. Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 11922|11913|2006-10-23 18:30:51|woodcraftssuch|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > FYI I have used about 4000 pound of sand to sandblast the outside of the 26, It takes a lot to knock off mill scale and rust to clean white steel . I am using 30 silica sand could have used a little coarser but how deep of pits can you afford to put in 10 and 12 gage steel . I have tried different blasters and compressor combinations from big to small and I ended up building my own blaster out of a 100 gallon butane tank, It works good and is a lot more efficient than any I tried. The blaster itself was cheap to build but the blast hose a nozzle were about $300 US but that was for a 3/16" tungsten carbide nozzle. For the compressor I bought an old Quincy piston type rated at around 50 CFM and with a 50 ft hose to a water separator and a 25 ft to blaster it maintains 80 psi of clean dry air at the blaster, it likes the gas though about 3 gallons for 400 pounds of sand. > It sure aint cheap or fast sandblasting but a least its done right. I found that the little harbor freight presser pot blasters work ok for small touchup jobs but for anything larger they are a pain in the A-- > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > I built one using a 100# propane tank, one of those about 1' in diameter x 4' tall. At the time I was working for someone blasting bulk oil tanks at tank farms, so I copied the features of the pot we used with the 600 cubic foot compressor which had a 1" blast nozzle. My compressor was a 60 c.f. The pot was actually pressurized to operating pressure of 100lbs. and also used gravity and siphon to feed sand to the airstream. I used standard pipe and fittings for everything including the blast nozzle, which I think was about 3/16 or maybe 1/4". The hose was some sort of 3/4" rubber hose from a farm supply place that had enough pressure rating. The nozzle was a 6" piece of 3/4" pipe that reduced down to the 3/16" size, the 3/16" piece was occasionally replaced as it wore out from the sand. The hose generally wore out right near the nozzle, cutting a few feet off once in awhile remedied that. I did about 10 houseboats, a house, a barn, some cars, 25 1000 gallon farm tanks, a 10'dia. x 50' ammonia tank and 5 12' dia. x 20' high oil tanks and I think I only replaced the hose once. When it was adjusted right it used very little sand compared to what I see some people use down at the local boatyard. Sam| 11923|1565|2006-10-23 19:30:36|tom|Re: sandblasting|Hello Gerd Should I have blasted the inside first? I started on the outside because when I first started sandblasting the temp. here was over a 100 degrees and the inside of the boat felt like 200. one thing I did notice was on a real hot day the mill scale came off easier. I cut a hole in the side of the keel to shove the sand out but I need to find a good air supplied blast hood before I will go after the inside. A friend of mine has about a half a pallet of some blast media , I think its called clean blast, supposed to be a lot cleaner than silica sand but it cost more than double what sand does, I am going to give it a try and see if it makes it a little better. One thing I might try is a down draft cooler will fit over the forward hatch and they will blow a lot of air might be enough that it will keep the dust out enough that I can see. either way should be a lot of fun ! Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello All >> I was wandering, when sandblasting the inside of the boat how the > heck can you see anything > > You cant ;-) Its like diving in mud. I had been following your > postings and had not realized that you had not done the inside first - > sorry to hear you still have it coming. > After 3 minutes you have a visibility range of 15 cm, you have to get > so close that your glass gets blasted as well and you have to change > it all the time. Get plenty. It's hell. > > Evacuating the sand: on the last boat I simply cut a big hole in the > bottom and welded it shut afterwards. > > Gerd > http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11924|11898|2006-10-23 21:01:55|brentswain38|Re: zink primers|Some have bolted aluminium blocks on steel hulls the same as zinc , with good results . Aluminium acts just like zinc, only slower. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Brent, > I've heard several people comment on spraying aluminum over the steel. > My question is what about galvanic reaction? Don't you get the same > corrosion you'd get by bolting an aluminum fitting to the steel deck? > I assume not or you wouldn't mention it, but why not? No oxy between > the alu and steel when its flame sprayed? > Thanks in advance. > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Flame spray is great for exteriors. It is as rough as fine sandpaper, > > perfect for paint adhesion. If it gets any rougher it's time to take > > it apart and clean the orfices with a tip cleaner, something which > > should be done frequently . Greater heat buildup is another sign that > > it needs cleaning. > > Aluminium works better and is more corrosion resistant than zinc. It > > costs more per pound , but being much lighter than Zinc ,it takes > > fewer pounds . > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > > > > > > cost. Flame sprayed zinc I think would be a better option but Im > > > > sure that > > > > > wouldnt be cheap eather. > > > > > > > > Tom, I have a couple Metco guns you are welcome to borrow for as > long > > > > as you need (I haven't used them, one seems complete, one is for > spare > > > > parts if needed). You already have a big compressor and I'm sure you > > > > have acetylene and oxygen since you are a welder. It would cost you > > > > the oxygen and the zinc sticks which are cheap. This has got to > be the > > > > cheapest possible way to go I would think and the best protection. > > > > > > > > --Ken > > > > > > > > > > | 11925|11925|2006-10-24 09:39:17|khooper_fboats|Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to retrieve though. All on one line: http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch?Ntt=mcdonaldson&Ntk=P_Lot_Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot%20Number|0&words=mcdonaldson&cmd=keyword Most of these look to be Deutz 913s so would be around 50 horse. There is also one 3-cyl and there appears to be one watercooled Deutz as well? They are misidentified on the site so won't appear in most searches. Most currently have no bids, minimum is $50, they close tomorrow. --Ken| 11926|11925|2006-10-24 10:10:40|Courtney Thomas|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Ken, What do you think/know of these engines, as a class ? I assume you have no personal knowledge of these particular engines. Please reply to: courtneycthomas@... Thank you, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > > I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not > currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an > aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to retrieve > though. All on one line: > > http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch?Ntt=mcdonaldson&Ntk=P_Lot_Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot%20Number|0&words=mcdonaldson&cmd=keyword > > Most of these look to be Deutz 913s so would be around 50 horse. There > is also one 3-cyl and there appears to be one watercooled Deutz as > well? They are misidentified on the site so won't appear in most > searches. Most currently have no bids, minimum is $50, they close > tomorrow. > > --Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 11927|11925|2006-10-24 11:02:22|khooper_fboats|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" wrote: > Please reply to: courtneycthomas@... I can't, those of us who read this thing from the web cannot see any email addresses because Yahoo scrambles them as an anti-spam measure. > What do you think/know of these engines, as a class ? I assume > you have no personal knowledge of these particular engines. The Deutz has a great reputation as a rugged, heavy diesel, but loud. I think parts might be pricey and limited sourcing. But I've never owned one. Besides the Deutz and Lombardhini and Lister, I don't think there are any other aircooled diesels in production (it's technically an oil cooled engine, the oil supply has its own radiator and engine driven fan, which IMO is a very intelligent way to go about things). These particular ones are sitting at a naval base being sold off, is all I know. --Ken| 11928|11925|2006-10-24 11:08:13|Courtney Thomas|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Thanks Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Courtney Thomas" > wrote: > > > Please reply to: courtneycthomas@... > > I can't, those of us who read this thing from the web cannot see any > email addresses because Yahoo scrambles them as an anti-spam measure. > > > What do you think/know of these engines, as a class ? I assume > > you have no personal knowledge of these particular engines. > > The Deutz has a great reputation as a rugged, heavy diesel, but loud. > I think parts might be pricey and limited sourcing. But I've never > owned one. Besides the Deutz and Lombardhini and Lister, I don't think > there are any other aircooled diesels in production (it's technically > an oil cooled engine, the oil supply has its own radiator and engine > driven fan, which IMO is a very intelligent way to go about things). > > These particular ones are sitting at a naval base being sold off, is > all I know. > > --Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 11929|11925|2006-10-24 12:38:40|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Hi, I had a Deutz 913, 3 cyl, 2,5 L appr 50 hp, in my previous 39 feet steel yacht. Engine worked very well. Thou a little noisy. Air supply to the engine fan is very important. Deutz are god engines and often used in various applications like fork lift, escavators, compressors, gen sets etc. Mine was from a used asphalt compactor. Rgds/Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- FrÃ¥n: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För Courtney Thomas Skickat: den 24 oktober 2006 16:05 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: Re: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA Ken, What do you think/know of these engines, as a class ? I assume you have no personal knowledge of these particular engines. Please reply to: courtneycthomas@... Thank you, Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > > I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not > currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an > aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to retrieve > though. All on one line: > > http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch?Ntt=mcdonaldson&Ntk=P_Lot _Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot%20Number|0&words=mcdonaldson&cmd=k eyword > > Most of these look to be Deutz 913s so would be around 50 horse. There > is also one 3-cyl and there appears to be one watercooled Deutz as > well? They are misidentified on the site so won't appear in most > searches. Most currently have no bids, minimum is $50, they close > tomorrow. > > --Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 1.1830 (20061024) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com | 11930|1565|2006-10-24 13:22:36|Gerd|Re: sandblasting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Gerd > Should I have blasted the inside first? No, can do it any order that's convenient, it's just that the inside is a lot tougher, so having done that first, the outside then seems like a stroll on the beach, air, wind, sun and sand and all ;-) I am not sure forced ventilation through a hatch will help a lot, because with your blasting you will create your own dust-devil tornado inside and the dust will just float around inside until it settles down. We used to take frequent breaks, turning with three people, one to service the machine, on inside blasting, on lying somewhere gasping and exhausted in the shadow with a bottle of beer. We used lots of beer. That was 25 years ago, honestly, I am not sure I could still do that. Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 11931|11931|2006-10-24 17:06:29|edward_stoneuk|Nuthin Wong in Portugal|Writing in Newsletter 47 of the Junk Rig Association about a trip down the Portuguese coast last August, David Tyler of 'Tystie' remarked that near Lagos he met 'Nuthin Wong' a big steel junk from Vancouver Island. I guess that must be the same 'Nuthin Wong' that is pictured in the files section. Regards, Ted| 11932|11925|2006-10-24 20:36:13|tom|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Hey Ken and Courtney My Lincoln welder has a 3 cyl deutz air cooled engine and I love it, hardly any maintinance sips fuel, it is a little loud though. I bought it new in 1996 and havnt had any trouble with it at all. I dont know how well it would hold up in the marine enviroment and they do generate a lot of heat. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > Ken, > > What do you think/know of these engines, as a class ? I assume > you have no personal knowledge of these particular engines. > > Please reply to: courtneycthomas@... > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "khooper_fboats" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:34 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > > >> >> I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not >> currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an >> aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to retrieve >> though. All on one line: >> >> > http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch?Ntt=mcdonaldson&Ntk=P_Lot_Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot%20Number|0&words=mcdonaldson&cmd=keyword >> >> Most of these look to be Deutz 913s so would be around 50 horse. There >> is also one 3-cyl and there appears to be one watercooled Deutz as >> well? They are misidentified on the site so won't appear in most >> searches. Most currently have no bids, minimum is $50, they close >> tomorrow. >> >> --Ken >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11934|11925|2006-10-24 22:19:56|khooper_fboats|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > I dont know how well it would > hold up in the marine enviroment and they do generate a lot of heat. Absolutely, it would take a well conceived ventilation system with not only adequate airflow but also well engineered shrouding. Studying the way Volkswagen and Porsche learned to shroud their engines and direct airflow through their engine compartments would probably be instructive. The volume of cooling air those things push through at cruise speed is tremendous. --Ken| 11936|11925|2006-10-25 05:35:33|edward_stoneuk|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Ken, You are right, air flow is very important. Back in the mists of time my father made a grain drier using a Wisconsin V-4 air cooled vapourising oil engine. Originally it had a fan on the flywheel that forced air around the crankcase and then up around cylinders and out around the exhaust manifold. My father wanted to use the engine to drive a big centrifugal fan to blow the engine waste heat up through a small silo of grain. So he blanked of the flywheel fan and modified the shrouding so the air was sucked in reverse; in by the exhaust manifolds down around the crankcase then through the big fan and up through the grain. Unfortunately the reversing of the air flow meant the hot air from the exhaust heated the crankcase and the engine ran for a while then overheated and gave up the ghost. Regards, Ted| 11938|11925|2006-10-25 14:12:22|Courtney Thomas|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|I'm in Canada so a little heat's OK :-) Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > Hey Ken and Courtney > My Lincoln welder has a 3 cyl deutz air cooled engine and I love it, hardly > any maintinance sips fuel, it is a little loud though. I bought it new in > 1996 and havnt had any trouble with it at all. I dont know how well it would > hold up in the marine enviroment and they do generate a lot of heat. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:04 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats]> > > > Ken, > > > > What do you think/know of these engines, as a class ? I assume > > you have no personal knowledge of these particular engines. > > > > Please reply to: courtneycthomas@... > > > > Thank you, > > Courtney > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "khooper_fboats" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:34 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > > > > > >> > >> I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not > >> currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an > >> aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to retrieve > >> though. All on one line: > >> > >> > > http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch?Ntt=mcdonaldson&Ntk=P_Lot_Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot%20Number|0&words=mcdonaldson&cmd=keyword > >> > >> Most of these look to be Deutz 913s so would be around 50 horse. There > >> is also one 3-cyl and there appears to be one watercooled Deutz as > >> well? They are misidentified on the site so won't appear in most > >> searches. Most currently have no bids, minimum is $50, they close > >> tomorrow. > >> > >> --Ken > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 11939|11925|2006-10-25 15:13:48|Alex|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|There's an old machinist near me who will sell me an old Lister aircooled diesel fo $300 bucks, out of some cadet launch. Do you think it would be worth it? I have ridden in the same kind of 26 foot navy launch with a Deutz aircooled 50 hp -- definitely a loud engine, we wore earmuffs, but it seemed to be a very simple and strong looking engine. I guess inside a boat you'd want to have an insulated engine room and large air intake and exhaust ducts to move the huge amounts of hot air out of the engine room, unless you wanted to direct some hot air inside for heating. It seems to me that the Lister might be better off in a boat with a large engine room, though the built in fan on the engine should be able to suck all the cool air it needs. The noise of the engine would be a great incentive to keep motoring to a minumum and improve your sailing skills! Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not > currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an > aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to | 11940|1565|2006-10-25 15:40:55|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: sandblasting|Even tho I did spend more to get my plate pre-primed, I am glad that it allows me to avoid blasting inside the hull. The outside of my hull needs it, but at least that's half the work! It sounds wretched, doing the inside... Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:11 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > Hello Gerd > > Should I have blasted the inside first? > > No, can do it any order that's convenient, it's just that the > inside > is a lot tougher, so having done that first, the outside then > seems > like a stroll on the beach, air, wind, sun and sand and all ;-) > I am not sure forced ventilation through a hatch will help a lot, > because with your blasting you will create your own dust-devil > tornado inside and the dust will just float around inside until it > settles down. We used to take frequent breaks, turning with three > people, one to service the machine, on inside blasting, on lying > somewhere gasping and exhausted in the shadow with a bottle of > beer. > We used lots of beer. > > That was 25 years ago, honestly, I am not sure I could still do that. > > > Gerd > http://www.yago-project.com > > > | 11941|11925|2006-10-25 17:31:53|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Alex, Lister's are really great engines and super reliable if they have not been messed with. I originally had a lister 13hp twin cyl air cooled engine in La Chica. It's a great engine, but noisy and very hot tropics. Because of the heat issue I eventually replaced at St. Martin, Netherlands Antilles. The wife insisted but if it were not for her, I likely would have stuck with it. It would also hand start but you had to make sure that you had a bit of momentum on the fly-wheel before you closed the de-compression cocks. Alex wrote: > There's an old machinist near me who will sell me an old Lister > aircooled diesel fo $300 bucks, out of some cadet launch. Do you > think it would be worth it? > > I have ridden in the same kind of 26 foot navy launch with a Deutz > aircooled 50 hp -- definitely a loud engine, we wore earmuffs, but it > seemed to be a very simple and strong looking engine. I guess inside > a boat you'd want to have an insulated engine room and large air > intake and exhaust ducts to move the huge amounts of hot air out of > the engine room, unless you wanted to direct some hot air inside for > heating. > > It seems to me that the Lister might be better off in a boat with a > large engine room, though the built in fan on the engine should be > able to suck all the cool air it needs. > > The noise of the engine would be a great incentive to keep motoring to > a minumum and improve your sailing skills! > > Alex > > > > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > | 11942|11925|2006-10-25 17:36:08|khooper_fboats|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > There's an old machinist near me who will sell me an old Lister > aircooled diesel fo $300 bucks, out of some cadet launch. Do you > think it would be worth it? Would you get a transmission and controls for that too? That seems pretty sweet to me but what do I know. Marine diesels sure can give you sticker shock if you look at new ones. As in $300 wouldn't even pay the taxes, not even close... Looks like all seven of thoses Deutzes went for well under $100 apiece today. I wish I could have gotten two or three. --Ken| 11943|11925|2006-10-25 18:16:36|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Yes, the Lister includes the tranny. It's not shop kept, tho, he's got it outside under a piece of galvanized roofing. The transmission looked very ancient, tho that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. I'll have to see if the engine is seized, tho apparently one can (carefully) un-seize an engine very carefully and revive it. Something to do with putting oil in through the injector holes and slowly rocking the flywheel back and forth (not "breaking" it by giving one big snap). Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:26 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > There's an old machinist near me who will sell me an old Lister > > aircooled diesel fo $300 bucks, out of some cadet launch. Do you > > think it would be worth it? > > Would you get a transmission and controls for that too? That seems > pretty sweet to me but what do I know. > > Marine diesels sure can give you sticker shock if you look at new > ones. As in $300 wouldn't even pay the taxes, not even close... > > Looks like all seven of thoses Deutzes went for well under $100 apiece > today. I wish I could have gotten two or three. > > --Ken > > > | 11944|1565|2006-10-25 21:19:43|tom|Re: sandblasting|I wish I could have gotten pre primed sheets here but it was not an option, what I should have done was sandblast the inside when it was still in halfs but at the time I couldnt find anyone that would sell me weld threw primer or zinc primer, heck most the paint outfits I called didnt even know what I was talking about and the few that did flat said nope cant get it here. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALEX CHRISTIE" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > Even tho I did spend more to get my plate pre-primed, I am glad that it > allows me to avoid blasting inside the hull. The outside of my hull needs > it, but at least that's half the work! It sounds wretched, doing the > inside... > > Alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerd > Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:11 am > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> > >> > Hello Gerd >> > Should I have blasted the inside first? >> >> No, can do it any order that's convenient, it's just that the >> inside >> is a lot tougher, so having done that first, the outside then >> seems >> like a stroll on the beach, air, wind, sun and sand and all ;-) >> I am not sure forced ventilation through a hatch will help a lot, >> because with your blasting you will create your own dust-devil >> tornado inside and the dust will just float around inside until it >> settles down. We used to take frequent breaks, turning with three >> people, one to service the machine, on inside blasting, on lying >> somewhere gasping and exhausted in the shadow with a bottle of >> beer. >> We used lots of beer. >> >> That was 25 years ago, honestly, I am not sure I could still do that. >> >> >> Gerd >> http://www.yago-project.com >> >> >> > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11946|1565|2006-10-26 04:51:20|Alex|Re: sandblasting|I've heard that grinding actually smooths or polishes the surface, though this hasn't stopped paint from sticking to it in many steel boats. Could be that epoxy is just so damn sticky that it doesn't demand the profile that sandblasting gives. However, a quick pass with some sand would be nice. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "buckrogers1234" wrote: > > I wonder if using a wire wheel on a angle grinder on the outside > hull steel is good enough for painting below the water line, rather > than sandblasting? Would this roughen the steel enough to hold the > paint? > Brian > | 11947|1565|2006-10-26 04:57:40|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: sandblasting|Definitely blasting the plate before pulling together would be the best option, then roll on a primer. My Zinga primer, while wildly expensive, is so high metal content that it can be welded through. I just welded metal skis to the bottoms of my keels (temporary) just fine recently for the boat's wild ride across a farm field, using 6011 AC. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: tom Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > I wish I could have gotten pre primed sheets here but it was not > an option, > what I should have done was sandblast the inside when it was still > in halfs > but at the time I couldnt find anyone that would sell me weld > threw primer > or zinc primer, heck most the paint outfits I called didnt even > know what I > was talking about and the few that did flat said nope cant get it > here. Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ALEX CHRISTIE" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:39 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > > Even tho I did spend more to get my plate pre-primed, I am glad > that it > > allows me to avoid blasting inside the hull. The outside of my > hull needs > > it, but at least that's half the work! It sounds wretched, doing > the > > inside... > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gerd > > Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:11 am > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> > > >> > Hello Gerd > >> > Should I have blasted the inside first? > >> > >> No, can do it any order that's convenient, it's just that the > >> inside > >> is a lot tougher, so having done that first, the outside then > >> seems > >> like a stroll on the beach, air, wind, sun and sand and all ;-) > >> I am not sure forced ventilation through a hatch will help a lot, > >> because with your blasting you will create your own dust-devil > >> tornado inside and the dust will just float around inside until it > >> settles down. We used to take frequent breaks, turning with three > >> people, one to service the machine, on inside blasting, on lying > >> somewhere gasping and exhausted in the shadow with a bottle of > >> beer. > >> We used lots of beer. > >> > >> That was 25 years ago, honestly, I am not sure I could still do > that.>> > >> > >> Gerd > >> http://www.yago-project.com > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 11948|1565|2006-10-26 09:22:07|khooper_fboats|Re: sandblasting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > I just welded metal skis to the bottoms of my keels Canadians are a special breed!| 11949|11925|2006-10-26 09:29:08|khooper_fboats|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > apparently one can (carefully) un-seize an engine > very carefully and revive it. Something to do with > putting oil in through the injector holes and > slowly rocking the flywheel back and forth I really would rather have it apart and have a look around, if it were me. It's not that hard and if everything checks out okay, all it costs you is a few gaskets to reassemble it. Maybe new mains and rod bearings for good form. Iron rings rusted to an iron block are just not going to be fixed by squirting a potion in the cylinders. If your rings are rusty, probably your cylinder walls and crank journals have rusted as well. If it's light it's not irreparable at all but I wouldn't try to run the engine if it had been siezed in any case. --Ken| 11950|11925|2006-10-26 09:57:09|edward_stoneuk|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|Ken, I agree if you are putting to sea it is sensible to check the motor over. We stripped our secondhand 3 cylinder ex ship's lifeboat engine down. It had done very few hours but because it had been standing for years its front cylinder was mildly corroded, so we fitted a new liner and piston rings and replaced the timing belts and tensioning pulleys and the fibre gear that runs the balancing shaft. That said, back in the mists of time on the farm my father had a baler powered by an Armstrong twin cylinder air cooled diesel. To start it after the winter and spring we would do as Alex has said pouring diesel oil in the manifolds to lubricate the cylinders and then rocking the flywheel back and forth. As often as not one or more of the valves would be stuck so we would run a flat belt from the tractor's belt pulley to the drive pulley of the Armstong and turn the engine over until it started which might take several hours. Usually it would start and run on one cylinder and we would let it run until the other started. After that we could start it on the handle using the decompression lever. These old slow reving diesel stationary engines had plenty of torque and could stand appalling conditions and non-existing maintenance. Regards, Ted| 11951|11925|2006-10-26 10:53:50|racer577@citystar.com|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|I have had a little experiance with rusted rings. I had a race bike that got water into the engine, then sat. Open carbs and an open trailer with a trip home in the rain will do that. It rusted the rings to the cylinder walls. It started with a crack the next time it ran and had water in the oil due to passing the water by the piston on startup. It ran fine afterwards with only a change of oil. I did replace the rings on the next tear down. Had another motor get water in it the same way and it would not run due to loss of compression. It needed a rebuild before it would run again. I have also had 2-strokes that have siezed and then run again once cool. Not recommended, but it does work. I would say if you can get good compression run it, if you dont then it definetly needs a rebuild. It should be easy enough to do a compression check after it is freed up. John > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > >> apparently one can (carefully) un-seize an engine >> very carefully and revive it. Something to do with >> putting oil in through the injector holes and >> slowly rocking the flywheel back and forth > > I really would rather have it apart and have a look around, if it were > me. It's not that hard and if everything checks out okay, all it costs > you is a few gaskets to reassemble it. Maybe new mains and rod > bearings for good form. Iron rings rusted to an iron block are just > not going to be fixed by squirting a potion in the cylinders. If your > rings are rusty, probably your cylinder walls and crank journals have > rusted as well. If it's light it's not irreparable at all but I > wouldn't try to run the engine if it had been siezed in any case. > > --Ken > > > | 11952|1565|2006-10-26 13:31:22|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: sandblasting|On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 01:57:35AM -0700, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > Definitely blasting the plate before pulling together would be the > best option, then roll on a primer. My Zinga primer, while wildly > expensive, is so high metal content that it can be welded through. I > just welded metal skis to the bottoms of my keels (temporary) just > fine recently for the boat's wild ride across a farm field, using > 6011 AC. Yes, but did you do it under sail? That would you into the Guinness book for sure. :) * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11953|1565|2006-10-26 13:31:52|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: sandblasting|On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:49:32AM -0000, Alex wrote: > I've heard that grinding actually smooths or polishes the surface, > though this hasn't stopped paint from sticking to it in many steel > boats. In my experience, grinding out rusted areas prior to painting just doesn't work - unless you use something like POR (Paint Over Rust, ~$100/gl) on top of it. I've been told that grinding just "drives the rust into the metal" - and based on the results I've seen, I'd find it hard to disagree. Sandblasting is the only way I know to get the rust completely gone; everything else I've tried leaves the rust gremlins lurking under the paint and popping up within a year or two. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11954|1565|2006-10-26 15:08:51|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: sandblasting|Ya wait til you see the video on Youtube next week! I've always liked skiing, so it seemed natural to make my boat ski too. The wet grass was really smoking behind it in two long trails! Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: khooper_fboats Date: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:17 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: sandblasting > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE > wrote: > > I just welded metal skis to the bottoms of my keels > > Canadians are a special breed! > > > | 11955|1565|2006-10-26 16:46:15|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting|It's worked well for me for the last 31 years as long as I use a rigid disk and give it 5 coats of epoxy tar after. Most of the problems occur when people don't give it enough coats . If the boat needs 5 coats , then so do the touch up spots. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:49:32AM -0000, Alex wrote: > > I've heard that grinding actually smooths or polishes the surface, > > though this hasn't stopped paint from sticking to it in many steel > > boats. > > In my experience, grinding out rusted areas prior to painting just > doesn't work - unless you use something like POR (Paint Over Rust, > ~$100/gl) on top of it. I've been told that grinding just "drives the > rust into the metal" - and based on the results I've seen, I'd find it > hard to disagree. > > Sandblasting is the only way I know to get the rust completely gone; > everything else I've tried leaves the rust gremlins lurking under the > paint and popping up within a year or two. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11956|11925|2006-10-26 16:50:48|brentswain38|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|I used aircooled diesels for 17 years . Reliable , hot and very noisy. I tried all kinds of fans and ducting, but nothing would get the heat and smoke out entirely. 2/3rds of all engine failures are from water cooling, but with dry exhuasts and skeg cooling , I think we can drastically reduce that number. One Port Townsend diesel mechanic in the repair business was quoted as saying" If everybody went for dry exhuast ahd keel cooling we mechanics would all be out of business. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not > currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an > aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to retrieve > though. All on one line: > > http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch? Ntt=mcdonaldson&Ntk=P_Lot_Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot% 20Number|0&words=mcdonaldson&cmd=keyword > > Most of these look to be Deutz 913s so would be around 50 horse. There > is also one 3-cyl and there appears to be one watercooled Deutz as > well? They are misidentified on the site so won't appear in most > searches. Most currently have no bids, minimum is $50, they close > tomorrow. > > --Ken > | 11957|11931|2006-10-26 16:52:26|brentswain38|Re: Nuthin Wong in Portugal|Yes it is the same one. He has just written a 357 page book on his adventures . It should be good reading.He's just putting the finishing touches on it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Writing in Newsletter 47 of the Junk Rig Association about a trip down > the Portuguese coast last August, David Tyler of 'Tystie' remarked > that near Lagos he met 'Nuthin Wong' a big steel junk from Vancouver > Island. I guess that must be the same 'Nuthin Wong' that is pictured > in the files section. > Regards, > Ted > | 11958|11925|2006-10-26 16:57:13|brentswain38|Re: Aircooled Diesels, Norfolk VA|It will get you mobile . Yes it's worth it. you can always change it later , and having it will let you concentrate on other priorities. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > There's an old machinist near me who will sell me an old Lister > aircooled diesel fo $300 bucks, out of some cadet launch. Do you > think it would be worth it? > > I have ridden in the same kind of 26 foot navy launch with a Deutz > aircooled 50 hp -- definitely a loud engine, we wore earmuffs, but it > seemed to be a very simple and strong looking engine. I guess inside > a boat you'd want to have an insulated engine room and large air > intake and exhaust ducts to move the huge amounts of hot air out of > the engine room, unless you wanted to direct some hot air inside for > heating. > > It seems to me that the Lister might be better off in a boat with a > large engine room, though the built in fan on the engine should be > able to suck all the cool air it needs. > > The noise of the engine would be a great incentive to keep motoring to > a minumum and improve your sailing skills! > > Alex > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > I'm an old aircooled fan from way back though I know they are not > > currently in fashion; I think there may be many advantages to an > > aircooled engine in a boat. These are too far away from me to > | 11959|1565|2006-10-26 17:14:34|Gerd|Re: sandblasting|Ski & Sail - not the only one... ;-) have a look at: http://www.babouche-expe.eu/home.html gerd http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 01:57:35AM -0700, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > Definitely blasting the plate before pulling together would be the > > best option, then roll on a primer. My Zinga primer, while wildly > > expensive, is so high metal content that it can be welded through. I > > just welded metal skis to the bottoms of my keels (temporary) just > > fine recently for the boat's wild ride across a farm field, using > > 6011 AC. > > Yes, but did you do it under sail? That would you into the Guinness book > for sure. :) > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11960|11925|2006-10-26 21:15:30|khooper_fboats|Re: Aircooled Diesels|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Reliable , hot and very > noisy. I'm thinking about how to reduce the noise. I've never done it in a boat, this is just from working on aircooled cars for many years and a basic understanding of how silencers work... First soundproof the engine compartment; I'd do this with pink construction foam laminated with lead sheeting, both of which are cheap and easy to get. Maybe several layers of that. Soft-mount the engine. Probably anybody would do this with a watercooled engine anyway. Duct an air intake to the insulated engine room. This serves both for combustion and for cooling air and it needs to be big and it needs to be airtight with the engine compartment. For the core I might use aluminum rain gutter downspout. They make curved bits so you could make the duct turn corners. Take two of those, wrap them together in chrome tape and punch a grid of holes all over the ouside of the resulting double tube, covering the entire duct like a grater. Maybe 1" diameter holes. I'd like this to breathe from somewhere high, hopefully from a cowl on the wheelhouse roof. Design it Dorade-style as much as possible. Install this duct, then lag it with fiberglass house insulation. Lag the entire thing, all the way to the inlet. This is for sound deadening, not temperature control. Now it needs a rigid cover for the third layer. That flexible aluminum duct made for the exhaust from a chothes dryer might work but I don't know if it's dense enough. Might need to wrap it all with aluminum house flashing instead. Cover the entire duct all the way to the inlet. You just made a very long, thin glasspack muffler. There are more effective ways to make a duct that will muffle sound but they are more complicated too. Handle the combustion exhaust exactly the way you would with a watercooled; BS recommends dry exhaust lagged with fiberglass wool I think. There is no reason this should leak gases anymore than a watercooled would. The cooling air exhaust needs to be airtight, ducted directly off the engine with NO LEAKS. The exhausted cooling air must NOT be allowed to swirl around in the engine compartment or the bilge. The engine must be shrouded so all hot air is forced directly into an exhaust duct. Fabricate this as a glasspack just like the intake duct. It should dump above the waterline probably, because I don't know what would happen if there is any significant backpressure. Back pressure would be very bad because the cooling air pressure is pretty low. This duct should not be straight, put some bends in it. This all should acoustically surround the engine entirely with fairly effective sound insulation, it should make the aircooled engine at least bearable, if not quiet. Just thoughts, --Ken| 11961|1565|2006-10-26 21:29:00|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: sandblasting|On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:42:23PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > It's worked well for me for the last 31 years as long as I use a > rigid disk and give it 5 coats of epoxy tar after. Most of the > problems occur when people don't give it enough coats . Oh, I've been using a rigid disk and putting on a bunch of layers; I suspect the trick may be the epoxy tar, which I've never tried. The problem is getting a hold of it around here (there's one shop, about 40 miles away, that's willing to order it for me, but no one carries it as a stock item.) I've recently started using Devoe's Bar-Rust epoxy, which is supposed to be what the USCG and the Navy are using; if that gives me problems, I'll bite the bullet and order the epoxy tar. So far, nothing except either 1) sandblasting and immediately painting, or 2) using POR has done any good. When I read how little time you spend on maintenance, I almost choked on my coffee. :\ * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11962|1565|2006-10-26 22:06:01|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: sandblasting|This link may be of help for finding Coal tar epoxy http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 08:42:23PM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > > It's worked well for me for the last 31 years as long as I use a > > rigid disk and give it 5 coats of epoxy tar after. Most of the > > problems occur when people don't give it enough coats . > > Oh, I've been using a rigid disk and putting on a bunch of layers; I > suspect the trick may be the epoxy tar, which I've never tried. The > problem is getting a hold of it around here (there's one shop, about 40 > miles away, that's willing to order it for me, but no one carries it as > a stock item.) > > I've recently started using Devoe's Bar-Rust epoxy, which is supposed to > be what the USCG and the Navy are using; if that gives me problems, I'll > bite the bullet and order the epoxy tar. So far, nothing except either > 1) sandblasting and immediately painting, or 2) using POR has done any > good. When I read how little time you spend on maintenance, I almost > choked on my coffee. :\ > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11963|1565|2006-10-26 22:41:55|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: sandblasting|On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 01:57:35AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > This link may be of help for finding Coal tar epoxy > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html Thanks, Jon - much appreciated. The local guys are about the same price, although I have no idea about their quality (it's a Sherwin-Williams store that seems to specialize in handling odd paints), and these guys seem to know what they're talking about. I'm still experimenting with the Bar-Rust, but I'll keep the above link for later reference. * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 11964|1565|2006-10-27 00:38:49|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: sandblasting|I have never used it but on the sternwheeler sights they highly reccomend it for steel hulls and those boats are made to be beached. Over Rust was one I had seen but havent hurd of any one trying it. Made by Sierra Ind. It is one that is supose to chemicaly change the rust and work good on steel boats. When welding wood stoves years ago we took the big side head grinders with a rubber sanding backer then osed a disk the next size bigger cutting it so it was octigon with tin snips. on edge it left scraches and got in tight spaces more layed down it would almost buff. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2006 at 01:57:35AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > This link may be of help for finding Coal tar epoxy > > > > http://www.epoxyproducts.com/coaltar.html > > Thanks, Jon - much appreciated. The local guys are about the same price, > although I have no idea about their quality (it's a Sherwin-Williams > store that seems to specialize in handling odd paints), and these guys > seem to know what they're talking about. I'm still experimenting with > the Bar-Rust, but I'll keep the above link for later reference. > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 11965|11965|2006-10-27 19:14:34|Alex|Keelskis|For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me welding "skis" onto the keels the other day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse field. It was a stunning success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out from under powerlines. I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy and crane guys to complete the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become ruggedly independent" hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing how easy it was for my tow truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would be fine for towing the boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow truck drivers are always on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering of a special two-piece take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to lift up a twin keel boat. I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny steel vessel! I would like input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea is to use two used truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the keels, and some sort of framework between that will allow it to be assembled together before the boat is lowered down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock the keels in place, fore and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in such a way that there is proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with a heavy duty hitch). The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished boat plus the weight of the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. It would have to have at least electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps hydraulic surge brakes (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built into the axles. Here is what is required: 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft edge of twin keels 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold assemblies together 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly 6. Tow to site and reverse the process 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness 8. Get back to grinding Alex| 11966|11965|2006-10-27 19:46:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Keelskis|Alex, I once owned a 27 ft fiberglass boat that weighed 7500lb. I went to a place that sold surplus axles from mobile homes with tires, wheels, springs, hangers and electric brakes and got two axles rated 6,000 lb each. I recall it costing me $250. In an afternoon two of welded up a lowboy trailer with two 8" channels bent together at the front. They sat on the spring hangers. We then welded scrap I-beams across the bottoms of the channels from side to side and a plate with a hole in it for a pintle hitch. I used it for the boat for 3 years. That was twenty years ago, my brother added a wooden deck and used it to haul a trencher around, now it has supports welded on for large spools of wire. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Keelskis For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me welding "skis" onto the keels the other day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse field. It was a stunning success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out from under powerlines. I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy and crane guys to complete the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become ruggedly independent" hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing how easy it was for my tow truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would be fine for towing the boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow truck drivers are always on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering of a special two-piece take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to lift up a twin keel boat. I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny steel vessel! I would like input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea is to use two used truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the keels, and some sort of framework between that will allow it to be assembled together before the boat is lowered down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock the keels in place, fore and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in such a way that there is proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with a heavy duty hitch). The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished boat plus the weight of the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. It would have to have at least electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps hydraulic surge brakes (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built into the axles. Here is what is required: 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft edge of twin keels 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold assemblies together 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly 6. Tow to site and reverse the process 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness 8. Get back to grinding Alex | 11967|11965|2006-10-27 20:06:59|Jim Douglas|Re: Keelskis|Alex, Awesome move Dude!!!I wondered if you would have any difficulty going down the incline from your site to the the flatter area in the pasture. I could see you easily flipping her over on her side. Glad to hear it worked out for you. I hope you go ahead with the trailer idea as I'd be very interested in how practical it would be for hauling legally on the highway. Arranging to have my boat hauled is one of my headaches too!! Also, I have been reading up on Zinga and it looks like I could use this stuff both inside and outside of my boat. Can I ask where you got yours? Jim Douglas North Vancouver --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me welding "skis" onto the keels the other > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse field. It was a stunning > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out from under > powerlines. > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy and crane guys to complete > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become ruggedly independent" > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing how easy it was for my tow > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would be fine for towing the > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow truck drivers are always > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering of a special two-piece > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to lift up a twin keel boat. > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny steel vessel! I would like > input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea is to use two used > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the keels, and some sort of > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together before the boat is lowered > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock the keels in place, fore > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in such a way that there is > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with a heavy duty hitch). > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished boat plus the weight of > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. It would have to have at least > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps hydraulic surge brakes > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built into the axles. > > Here is what is required: > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft edge of twin keels > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold assemblies together > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > 8. Get back to grinding > > Alex > | 11968|11965|2006-10-27 20:15:44|Alex Christie|Re: Keelskis|Well, the boat is very stable on it's twin keels, no chance of it falling over there. It was a very smooth affair. Zinga seems to be not available from Evergreen Industries any more (North Vancouver), I don't know why. It is now distributed by CFA Aurora,Ontario, contacted at cfasales@.... I haven't ordered any more Zinga yet, so I haven't contacted them. Note in the photo that I have Zinga on the keel tips and not a spot of rust on them, yet steel is surface rusted right up to it. Maybe I can just do the whole boat in Zinga and leave it at that! It would look like a battle cruiser, but it might work. Touch-ups would be a cinch, but I wonder how it would stand up as a working surface. Alex On 27-Oct-06, at 5:04 PM, Jim Douglas wrote: > Alex, > > Awesome move Dude!!!I wondered if you would have any difficulty > going down the incline from your site to the the flatter area in the > pasture. I could see you easily flipping her over on her side. Glad > to hear it worked out for you. > > I hope you go ahead with the trailer idea as I'd be very interested > in how practical it would be for hauling legally on the highway. > Arranging to have my boat hauled is one of my headaches too!! > > Also, I have been reading up on Zinga and it looks like I could use > this stuff both inside and outside of my boat. Can I ask where you > got yours? > > Jim Douglas > North Vancouver > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me > welding "skis" onto the keels the other > > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse > field. It was a stunning > > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out > from under > > powerlines. > > > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy > and crane guys to complete > > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become > ruggedly independent" > > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing > how easy it was for my tow > > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would > be fine for towing the > > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow > truck drivers are always > > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering > of a special two-piece > > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to > lift up a twin keel boat. > > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny > steel vessel! I would like > > input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea > is to use two used > > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the > keels, and some sort of > > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together > before the boat is lowered > > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock > the keels in place, fore > > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in > such a way that there is > > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with > a heavy duty hitch). > > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished > boat plus the weight of > > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. > It would have to have at least > > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps > hydraulic surge brakes > > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built > into the axles. > > > > Here is what is required: > > > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing > > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft > edge of twin keels > > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold > assemblies together > > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > > 8. Get back to grinding > > > > Alex > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11969|11965|2006-10-27 20:22:52|tom|Re: Keelskis|Hello Alex sounds like it is doable , I would check with the local authorities on the rulls of the trailer carring oversize load. I checked here in California once and they said it had to be licensed, legal trailer before I could get a permit for oversize load, No yard dolly Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Keelskis > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me welding "skis" onto > the keels the other > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse field. It > was a stunning > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out from > under > powerlines. > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy and crane > guys to complete > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become ruggedly > independent" > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing how easy > it was for my tow > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would be fine > for towing the > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow truck > drivers are always > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering of a > special two-piece > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to lift up > a twin keel boat. > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny steel > vessel! I would like > input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea is to > use two used > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the keels, and > some sort of > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together before the > boat is lowered > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock the > keels in place, fore > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in such a > way that there is > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with a heavy > duty hitch). > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished boat plus > the weight of > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. It > would have to have at least > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps > hydraulic surge brakes > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built into the > axles. > > Here is what is required: > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft edge of > twin keels > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold assemblies > together > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > 8. Get back to grinding > > Alex > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11970|11913|2006-10-27 20:32:40|Jim Douglas|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|Tom, I have been catching up on your posts and pictures of your 26 footer. I am about to start the re-fit of an older 36 foot Tom Colvin Designed Saugeen Witch and sand blasting inside and out is very much on my agenda. I am very interested in your blasting pot deign and overall system. Is there any way I could convince you to produce drwaings of the design that I may be able to construct one for myself?. I don't now about the others on the group but personally I'd be prepared to part with some money for this. Jim Douglas North Vancouver, B.C. . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Ray > I posted a couple pictures of it in origamiboats2 > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:51 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > > > > > Tom - > > > > If it's convenient for you to do so, I'd sure enjoy seeing photos of > > this contraption you've made - > > > > Ray Kimbro > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 11971|11965|2006-10-27 20:35:22|Alex Christie|Re: Keelskis|Hi Tom, Tow trucks seem to get around the licensing aspect -- I have had tow trucks haul an unlicensed construction trailer of mine before, and they assured me they were covered for liability. The boat might be a different case with its higher weight. Mind you, having a road licensed trailer would be very good for this boat -- it could be swapped around at cost to the next builder, and so on down the line, essentially recovering the cost for each user after they are finished with it. After all the hassle of lining up other people to do this move, I started to realize that the more people you depend on for anything, the higher the probability of being let down when one person doesn't come through. It's a bit of a cynical assessment about humanity, but it seems to be true when it comes to trying to hire industrial-type commercial equipment operators who find moving and lifting boats perhaps small potatoes. Alex On 27-Oct-06, at 5:19 PM, tom wrote: > Hello Alex > sounds like it is doable , I would check with the local authorities > on the > rulls of the trailer carring oversize load. > I checked here in California once and they said it had to be licensed, > legal trailer before I could get a permit for oversize load, No yard > dolly > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Keelskis > > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me welding > "skis" onto > > the keels the other > > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse > field. It > > was a stunning > > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out > from > > under > > powerlines. > > > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy > and crane > > guys to complete > > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become > ruggedly > > independent" > > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing > how easy > > it was for my tow > > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would > be fine > > for towing the > > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow > truck > > drivers are always > > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering of > a > > special two-piece > > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to > lift up > > a twin keel boat. > > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny > steel > > vessel! I would like > > input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea > is to > > use two used > > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the > keels, and > > some sort of > > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together > before the > > boat is lowered > > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock the > > keels in place, fore > > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in > such a > > way that there is > > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with > a heavy > > duty hitch). > > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished > boat plus > > the weight of > > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. > It > > would have to have at least > > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps > > hydraulic surge brakes > > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built into > the > > axles. > > > > Here is what is required: > > > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing > > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft > edge of > > twin keels > > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold > assemblies > > together > > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > > 8. Get back to grinding > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11972|11965|2006-10-27 21:15:43|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Keelskis|Hi Alex, There used to be some pictures on one of George Buhler's sites of one of his vessels moved with a couple truck axles welded to the hull. I believe the folks were in Quebec. It might give you some ideas. For smaller vessels (e.g. BS 26) it might be worth the risk moving it with an unconventional setup at an awkward time - I'm thinking 4am christmas morning. Nice work so far, though Cheers Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie Date: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Keelskis > Hi Tom, > > Tow trucks seem to get around the licensing aspect -- I have had > tow > trucks haul an unlicensed construction trailer of mine before, and > they > assured me they were covered for liability. The boat might be a > different case with its higher weight. Mind you, having a road > licensed trailer would be very good for this boat -- it could be > swapped around at cost to the next builder, and so on down the > line, > essentially recovering the cost for each user after they are > finished > with it. After all the hassle of lining up other people to do > this > move, I started to realize that the more people you depend on for > anything, the higher the probability of being let down when one > person > doesn't come through. It's a bit of a cynical assessment about > humanity, but it seems to be true when it comes to trying to hire > industrial-type commercial equipment operators who find moving and > lifting boats perhaps small potatoes. > > Alex > > > > On 27-Oct-06, at 5:19 PM, tom wrote: > > > Hello Alex > > sounds like it is doable , I would check with the local > authorities > > on the > > rulls of the trailer carring oversize load. > > I checked here in California once and they said it had to be > licensed,> legal trailer before I could get a permit for oversize > load, No yard > > dolly > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Alex" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Keelskis > > > > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me welding > > "skis" onto > > > the keels the other > > > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse > > field. It > > > was a stunning > > > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat > out > > from > > > under > > > powerlines. > > > > > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer > guy > > and crane > > > guys to complete > > > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become > > ruggedly > > > independent" > > > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after > seeing > > how easy > > > it was for my tow > > > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 > would > > be fine > > > for towing the > > > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And > tow > > truck > > > drivers are always > > > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > > > > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the > engineering of > > a > > > special two-piece > > > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a > crane to > > lift up > > > a twin keel boat. > > > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a > tiny > > steel > > > vessel! I would like > > > input into this from any interested member on the group. The > idea > > is to > > > use two used > > > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the > > keels, and > > > some sort of > > > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together > > before the > > > boat is lowered > > > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will > lock the > > > keels in place, fore > > > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate > positioned in > > such a > > > way that there is > > > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck > with > > a heavy > > > duty hitch). > > > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a > finished > > boat plus > > > the weight of > > > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite > light. > > It > > > would have to have at least > > > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps > > > hydraulic surge brakes > > > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already > built into > > the > > > axles. > > > > > > Here is what is required: > > > > > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > > > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing > > > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock > onto aft > > edge of > > > twin keels > > > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and > hold > > assemblies > > > together > > > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > > > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > > > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > > > 8. Get back to grinding > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 11973|11965|2006-10-27 21:20:42|Jim Douglas|Re: Zinga|Alex, The technical stuff I read about Zinga is that it protects better if it is covered up by another paint medium although you'd have to consult with them as to which specific kinds of paint are compatable. What I liked is that I could sand blast and paint individual areas of my boat with the stuff and not have too worry about the border areas not tying in i.e. painting fresh Zinga over older dried Zinga or about having to adhere to some "time windows" after drying before which the next layer could go on. Feasible temperature ranges for application are apparently quite wide too. Add to this that you can supposedly weld thru it and also, applied to spec, they say you'll never have to worry about sand blasting ever again!!!I may take a financial bath on this but to me it may be worth the price. Jim Douglas --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Well, the boat is very stable on it's twin keels, no chance of it > falling over there. It was a very smooth affair. > > Zinga seems to be not available from Evergreen Industries any more > (North Vancouver), I don't know why. > > It is now distributed by CFA Aurora,Ontario, contacted at > cfasales@... I haven't ordered any more Zinga yet, so I > haven't contacted them. > > Note in the photo that I have Zinga on the keel tips and not a spot of > rust on them, yet steel is surface rusted right up to it. Maybe I can > just do the whole boat in Zinga and leave it at that! It would look > like a battle cruiser, but it might work. Touch-ups would be a cinch, > but I wonder how it would stand up as a working surface. > > Alex > > > > > On 27-Oct-06, at 5:04 PM, Jim Douglas wrote: > > > Alex, > > > > Awesome move Dude!!!I wondered if you would have any difficulty > > going down the incline from your site to the the flatter area in the > > pasture. I could see you easily flipping her over on her side. Glad > > to hear it worked out for you. > > > > I hope you go ahead with the trailer idea as I'd be very interested > > in how practical it would be for hauling legally on the highway. > > Arranging to have my boat hauled is one of my headaches too!! > > > > Also, I have been reading up on Zinga and it looks like I could use > > this stuff both inside and outside of my boat. Can I ask where you > > got yours? > > > > Jim Douglas > > North Vancouver > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me > > welding "skis" onto the keels the other > > > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse > > field. It was a stunning > > > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat out > > from under > > > powerlines. > > > > > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy > > and crane guys to complete > > > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become > > ruggedly independent" > > > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after seeing > > how easy it was for my tow > > > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 would > > be fine for towing the > > > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And tow > > truck drivers are always > > > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > > > > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering > > of a special two-piece > > > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to > > lift up a twin keel boat. > > > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a tiny > > steel vessel! I would like > > > input into this from any interested member on the group. The idea > > is to use two used > > > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the > > keels, and some sort of > > > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together > > before the boat is lowered > > > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will lock > > the keels in place, fore > > > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate positioned in > > such a way that there is > > > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck with > > a heavy duty hitch). > > > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a finished > > boat plus the weight of > > > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite light. > > It would have to have at least > > > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or perhaps > > hydraulic surge brakes > > > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built > > into the axles. > > > > > > Here is what is required: > > > > > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > > > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for towing > > > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock onto aft > > edge of twin keels > > > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and hold > > assemblies together > > > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > > > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > > > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > > > 8. Get back to grinding > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11974|11913|2006-10-27 22:50:22|tom|Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress|Hello Jim I will try to draw up a rough drawing of it this weekend and post it for you, If you google sandblaster plans there is a guy that shows how to build a small one with 6" pipe, its about the same just this one is a lot bigger. Sam mentioned he used pipe fitting for the nozzle and that does work and a lot cheaper but I didnt have much luck with them lasting, same with the hose, blew one after about a 1000 pounds of sand. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Douglas" To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress > Tom, > > I have been catching up on your posts and pictures of your 26 footer. > > I am about to start the re-fit of an older 36 foot Tom Colvin > Designed Saugeen Witch and sand blasting inside and out is very much > on my agenda. > > I am very interested in your blasting pot deign and overall system. > Is there any way I could convince you to produce drwaings of the > design that I may be able to construct one for myself?. I don't now > about the others on the group but personally I'd be prepared to part > with some money for this. > > Jim Douglas > North Vancouver, B.C. > . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Ray >> I posted a couple pictures of it in origamiboats2 >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ray" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:51 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: BS 26 sandblasting progress >> >> >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: >> > >> > >> > Tom - >> > >> > If it's convenient for you to do so, I'd sure enjoy seeing > photos of >> > this contraption you've made - >> > >> > Ray Kimbro >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11975|11965|2006-10-28 03:08:52|Alex Christie|Re: Keelskis|A 26 footer (twin keel) would be able to be moved on a small tandem axle flatdeck equipment trailer, I think. Going small makes things a lot cheaper and simpler. There have been a few of these boats built with the truck axle welded to hull, actually. None down the highway tho. 4 am moves, it does happen on Vancouver Island sometimes, right from the yard down to the beach! Alex On 27-Oct-06, at 6:08 PM, paulcotter@... wrote: > Hi Alex, > > There used to be some pictures on one of George Buhler's sites of one > of his vessels moved with a couple truck axles welded to the hull. I > believe the folks were in Quebec. It might give you some ideas. For > smaller vessels (e.g. BS 26) it might be worth the risk moving it with > an unconventional setup at an awkward time - I'm thinking 4am > christmas morning. > > Nice work so far, though > > Cheers > > Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11976|11965|2006-10-28 03:10:23|Alex Christie|Re: Zinga|I just read on the UK Zinga site about painting, the main thing being to do first coats as "dusting" in order that the solvent in the paint does not soften the zinc coating underneath. This create a tie-coat that can subsequently be built up after. I also read that is can be used without paint, and also that you should spray it was fresh water for 2 hours before first in order to "seal" the coating. Leaving it in the rain works too. Apparently the Zinga might have some anti-fouling properties due to it's mild electric current, but they state it is not toxic otherwise (after it is dried), so regular bottom paint can be applied. I like the easy coat lapping too, makes for more relaxed working on the hull by not needing a wet edge. Every time you start again, the solvent kind of "melts" the last edge you ended on, making the entire coating monolithic. Alex On 27-Oct-06, at 6:02 PM, Jim Douglas wrote: > Alex, > > The technical stuff I read about Zinga is that it protects better if > it is covered up by another paint medium although you'd have to > consult with them as to which specific kinds of paint are compatable. > > What I liked is that I could sand blast and paint individual areas > of my boat with the stuff and not have too worry about the border > areas not tying in i.e. painting fresh Zinga over older dried Zinga > or about having to adhere to some "time windows" after drying before > which the next layer could go on. Feasible temperature ranges for > application are apparently quite wide too. > > Add to this that you can supposedly weld thru it and also, applied > to spec, they say you'll never have to worry about sand blasting > ever again!!!I may take a financial bath on this but to me it may be > worth the price. > > Jim Douglas > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Well, the boat is very stable on it's twin keels, no chance of it > > falling over there. It was a very smooth affair. > > > > Zinga seems to be not available from Evergreen Industries any more > > (North Vancouver), I don't know why. > > > > It is now distributed by CFA Aurora,Ontario, contacted at > > cfasales@... I haven't ordered any more Zinga yet, so I > > haven't contacted them. > > > > Note in the photo that I have Zinga on the keel tips and not a > spot of > > rust on them, yet steel is surface rusted right up to it. Maybe I > can > > just do the whole boat in Zinga and leave it at that! It would > look > > like a battle cruiser, but it might work. Touch-ups would be a > cinch, > > but I wonder how it would stand up as a working surface. > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > On 27-Oct-06, at 5:04 PM, Jim Douglas wrote: > > > > > Alex, > > > > > > Awesome move Dude!!!I wondered if you would have any difficulty > > > going down the incline from your site to the the flatter area > in the > > > pasture. I could see you easily flipping her over on her side. > Glad > > > to hear it worked out for you. > > > > > > I hope you go ahead with the trailer idea as I'd be very > interested > > > in how practical it would be for hauling legally on the highway. > > > Arranging to have my boat hauled is one of my headaches too!! > > > > > > Also, I have been reading up on Zinga and it looks like I could > use > > > this stuff both inside and outside of my boat. Can I ask where > you > > > got yours? > > > > > > Jim Douglas > > > North Vancouver > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > > > > > > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me > > > welding "skis" onto the keels the other > > > > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse > > > field. It was a stunning > > > > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat > out > > > from under > > > > powerlines. > > > > > > > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer > guy > > > and crane guys to complete > > > > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become > > > ruggedly independent" > > > > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after > seeing > > > how easy it was for my tow > > > > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 > would > > > be fine for towing the > > > > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And > tow > > > truck drivers are always > > > > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. > > > > > > > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the > engineering > > > of a special two-piece > > > > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a > crane to > > > lift up a twin keel boat. > > > > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a > tiny > > > steel vessel! I would like > > > > input into this from any interested member on the group. The > idea > > > is to use two used > > > > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the > > > keels, and some sort of > > > > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together > > > before the boat is lowered > > > > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will > lock > > > the keels in place, fore > > > > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate > positioned in > > > such a way that there is > > > > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck > with > > > a heavy duty hitch). > > > > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a > finished > > > boat plus the weight of > > > > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite > light. > > > It would have to have at least > > > > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or > perhaps > > > hydraulic surge brakes > > > > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built > > > into the axles. > > > > > > > > Here is what is required: > > > > > > > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground > > > > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for > towing > > > > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock > onto aft > > > edge of twin keels > > > > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and > hold > > > assemblies together > > > > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly > > > > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process > > > > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness > > > > 8. Get back to grinding > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 11978|11075|2006-10-28 10:32:42|tom|Re: Zinga|One thing I wanted to mention is the Sherwin Wiliams macropoxy 646 is supposed to have a 3 month overcoat time, with that a guy could blast and paint in sections without a problem if you dont want to use zinc primer or zinga. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Zinga >I just read on the UK Zinga site about painting, the main thing being > to do first coats as "dusting" in order that the solvent in the paint > does not soften the zinc coating underneath. This create a tie-coat > that can subsequently be built up after. > > I also read that is can be used without paint, and also that you should > spray it was fresh water for 2 hours before first in order to "seal" > the coating. Leaving it in the rain works too. Apparently the Zinga > might have some anti-fouling properties due to it's mild electric > current, but they state it is not toxic otherwise (after it is dried), > so regular bottom paint can be applied. > > I like the easy coat lapping too, makes for more relaxed working on the > hull by not needing a wet edge. Every time you start again, the > solvent kind of "melts" the last edge you ended on, making the entire > coating monolithic. > > Alex > > > On 27-Oct-06, at 6:02 PM, Jim Douglas wrote: > >> Alex, >> >> The technical stuff I read about Zinga is that it protects better if >> it is covered up by another paint medium although you'd have to >> consult with them as to which specific kinds of paint are compatable. >> >> What I liked is that I could sand blast and paint individual areas >> of my boat with the stuff and not have too worry about the border >> areas not tying in i.e. painting fresh Zinga over older dried Zinga >> or about having to adhere to some "time windows" after drying before >> which the next layer could go on. Feasible temperature ranges for >> application are apparently quite wide too. >> >> Add to this that you can supposedly weld thru it and also, applied >> to spec, they say you'll never have to worry about sand blasting >> ever again!!!I may take a financial bath on this but to me it may be >> worth the price. >> >> Jim Douglas >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie >> wrote: >> > >> > Well, the boat is very stable on it's twin keels, no chance of it >> > falling over there. It was a very smooth affair. >> > >> > Zinga seems to be not available from Evergreen Industries any more >> > (North Vancouver), I don't know why. >> > >> > It is now distributed by CFA Aurora,Ontario, contacted at >> > cfasales@... I haven't ordered any more Zinga yet, so I >> > haven't contacted them. >> > >> > Note in the photo that I have Zinga on the keel tips and not a >> spot of >> > rust on them, yet steel is surface rusted right up to it. Maybe I >> can >> > just do the whole boat in Zinga and leave it at that! It would >> look >> > like a battle cruiser, but it might work. Touch-ups would be a >> cinch, >> > but I wonder how it would stand up as a working surface. >> > >> > Alex >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 27-Oct-06, at 5:04 PM, Jim Douglas wrote: >> > >> > > Alex, >> > > >> > > Awesome move Dude!!!I wondered if you would have any difficulty >> > > going down the incline from your site to the the flatter area >> in the >> > > pasture. I could see you easily flipping her over on her side. >> Glad >> > > to hear it worked out for you. >> > > >> > > I hope you go ahead with the trailer idea as I'd be very >> interested >> > > in how practical it would be for hauling legally on the highway. >> > > Arranging to have my boat hauled is one of my headaches too!! >> > > >> > > Also, I have been reading up on Zinga and it looks like I could >> use >> > > this stuff both inside and outside of my boat. Can I ask where >> you >> > > got yours? >> > > >> > > Jim Douglas >> > > North Vancouver >> > > >> > > >> > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: >> > > > >> > > > For a lark I've put up the snapshot Julian took of me >> > > welding "skis" onto the keels the other >> > > > day before the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse >> > > field. It was a stunning >> > > > success and has saved me from the problem of getting the boat >> out >> > > from under >> > > > powerlines. >> > > > >> > > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer >> guy >> > > and crane guys to complete >> > > > the move, and this has caused me to put on my "time to become >> > > ruggedly independent" >> > > > hat that Brent wears so well already. The thing is, after >> seeing >> > > how easy it was for my tow >> > > > truck driver to drag my boat, I realized that his Ford F450 >> would >> > > be fine for towing the >> > > > boat with wheels under it, even fully finished (18K lbs). And >> tow >> > > truck drivers are always >> > > > on standby, ready to go with as little as a few hours notice. >> > > > >> > > > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the >> engineering >> > > of a special two-piece >> > > > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a >> crane to >> > > lift up a twin keel boat. >> > > > I mean, this isn't like moving the Space Shuttle, it's just a >> tiny >> > > steel vessel! I would like >> > > > input into this from any interested member on the group. The >> idea >> > > is to use two used >> > > > truck axles that will fix to the forward and aft edges of the >> > > keels, and some sort of >> > > > framework between that will allow it to be assembled together >> > > before the boat is lowered >> > > > down onto everything. Little rubber padded "V"-notches will >> lock >> > > the keels in place, fore >> > > > and aft. Think of it as a giant, low-bed rollerskate >> positioned in >> > > such a way that there is >> > > > proper tongue weight on the towing vehicle (a hired tow-truck >> with >> > > a heavy duty hitch). >> > > > The entire gross vehicle weight would be the mass of a >> finished >> > > boat plus the weight of >> > > > the trailer itself, and with no flat deck it would be quite >> light. >> > > It would have to have at least >> > > > electric brakes somehow retrofit into the truck axles, or >> perhaps >> > > hydraulic surge brakes >> > > > (cheapest) that take advantage of the hydraulics already built >> > > into the axles. >> > > > >> > > > Here is what is required: >> > > > >> > > > 1. Jack up boat one foot off ground >> > > > 2. back front axle assembly which has tongue attached for >> towing >> > > > 3.slide in aft axle assembly sideways and forward to lock >> onto aft >> > > edge of twin keels >> > > > 4. bolt in support beams that would go under each keel and >> hold >> > > assemblies together >> > > > 5. Lower boat onto completed assembly >> > > > 6. Tow to site and reverse the process >> > > > 7. Laugh maniacally and make a toast to inventiveness >> > > > 8. Get back to grinding >> > > > >> > > > Alex >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11979|11965|2006-10-28 11:39:43|sae140|Re: Keelskis|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > I've had a heck of a time trying to line up both the trailer guy and crane guys to complete > the move, > So now the other builder and I are now pondering the engineering of a special two-piece > take-apart trailer which would avoid the need for using a crane to lift up a twin keel boat. Hi Alex I understand the frustration experienced when trying to tie-up several professionals with what they see as a small-beer job. Personally I resent paying good money for something I could do myself if only I had the right kit. A couple of years back I paid £120 to have a crane lift a 1-ton boat just 3 feet into the air so that I could slide a trailer underneath it. £120 for just 10 minutes work. Never again. Although I've never lifted more than 2 tons with simple hand gear, I see no reason why the following procedure couldn't be scaled-up by using a 10-ton hydraulic bottle jack. I find getting the hull up into the air the most challenging bit, and thus far I've been jacking-up the bow using a pole made from light girder section and an appropriately sized hydraulic jack. Before jacking-up GRP hulls, I first make-up a suitably shaped timber V- section adapter on a flat base and line the V with cast-off road-side truck tyre rubber. No need for that though with a steel boat under construction. Anyway - slide wood blocks under the front of the keel when it's high enough. Repeat the performance at the stern, and repeat .... gradually raising the hull up to the desired height. Fit blocks under the jack as the height increases, and be very careful if working on soft ground ! (Obviously with a skeg you'd raise the stern first ...) Transferring the hull onto a one-piece trailer is easy (if a little long-winded) if the trailer is of open framework construction - i.e. a basic rectangle of girder or tube section with (say) 2 intermediate cross-beams upon which the keels will rest. The procedure is then to back the trailer until the trailer's rear cross beam just touches the blocks supporting the leading edge of the keels, at which point the bow is jacked up as before, with the jack being operated *through* the open trailer. The blocks are then removed and the trailer backed under the boat until an intermediate cross-beam touches the jack, at which point the blocks are replaced, and the jack lowered. With the jack removed the trailer can again be reversed further under the boat, and so on ... Then jack-up the stern in a similar manner when appropriate. It's a bit of a fiddle, and can take 6 or more raisings and lowerings, depending on how the intermediate beams are spaced, but it's great to eventually see a big heavy lump sat on it's trailer in the knowledge that it got there by the use of human muscle only - well, that and a dose of ingenuity and applied hydraulics ... Colin| 11980|11965|2006-10-28 14:27:31|tom|Re: Keelskis|Hey Alex Yes the 26 is a lot easyer for trailering single or twin keels. I have been lifting mine up and down off the trailer with a single A frame that I built several years ago out of used well casing pipe, It does comeapart so it could be hauled in a pickup. You could do the same thing on a larger scale but I would go with 2 of them for the 36. The chain hoist are pretty cheap from harbor freight Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Keelskis >A 26 footer (twin keel) would be able to be moved on a small tandem > axle flatdeck equipment trailer, I think. Going small makes things a > lot cheaper and simpler. > > There have been a few of these boats built with the truck axle welded > to hull, actually. None down the highway tho. > > 4 am moves, it does happen on Vancouver Island sometimes, right from > the yard down to the beach! > > Alex > > > On 27-Oct-06, at 6:08 PM, paulcotter@... wrote: > >> Hi Alex, >> >> There used to be some pictures on one of George Buhler's sites of one >> of his vessels moved with a couple truck axles welded to the hull. I >> believe the folks were in Quebec. It might give you some ideas. For >> smaller vessels (e.g. BS 26) it might be worth the risk moving it with >> an unconventional setup at an awkward time - I'm thinking 4am >> christmas morning. >> >> Nice work so far, though >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11981|11965|2006-10-28 16:27:15|jnikadie|Re: Keelskis|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse field. It was a stunning success Check out the video of the tow (there are other, less dramatic, videos of the boat being winched into position for the tow) ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9JYXMxa0o| 11982|11965|2006-10-28 21:38:26|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Keelskis|On Sat, October 28, 2006 16:26, jnikadie wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > >> the boat's half-kilometre journey across the horse field. It was a > stunning success > > > Check out the video of the tow (there are other, less dramatic, videos > of the boat being winched into position for the tow) ... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9JYXMxa0o > > Thats great! I do hope that you are never again chasing your boat like that... especially on foot :-) Bruce -- Bruce C. Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 11983|11965|2006-10-29 04:29:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: Keelskis video|Alex, That was brilliant. Regards, Ted| 11984|11984|2006-10-29 10:34:33|tom|sandblasting inside|Hello All Well now that the outside of my 26 is blasted and primed I have the nasty job of the inside that I dont want to do. There dosnt seem to be any proffesional blasters around here because I have been looking, would gladly pay to get it done. Sense I have to do it myself I am figuring a way to make it a little better . What I am thinking is make a scoop type funnel that attaches to the shop vac and use magnets to hold it to the hull, place it just ahead of the blast area because when you blast with a pressure pot system you blast between 45-60% angle, should be able to blast toward the scoop and catch a lot of the dust. I am going to downsize the nozzle a bit and put a ball valve just behind it so it can be stopped to move the scoop or wait till dust clears out to see again. The shop vac will be setting out side the keel with the hose running through a hole in the side and a big fan on top of forward hatch blowing in. It should be a little better at least be able to see what I am doing. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11985|11985|2006-10-29 13:03:26|jnikadie|Flame spray|I'm currently enjoying some very interesting reading ... the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers "THERMAL SPRAYING: NEW CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE" Engineer Manual ... it's relatively recent, being dated 29 January 1999. It's available at: http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-manuals/em1110-2-3401/entire.pdf My current impressions are that flame spray has a lower life-cycle cost, but a higher initial cost. From the manual: "Section 5-5. Thermal Spray Selection for Ferrous Metal Surfaces in Seawater "Again, all of the thermal spray systems described in CEGS-09971 will perform in seawater immersion service. Aluminum thermal spray coatings have seen much wider use in marine environments, and they are generally preferred over the zinc-containing coatings for seawater immersion. System 8-A is the recommended thermal spray system for this application. Seal coats and paint topcoats may be used to add a further degree of protection to the thermal spray coating systems used in seawater immersion, but their use is not considered an absolute necessity. Table 5-2 identifies a number of typical components exposed to seawater environments and the recommended and preferred thermal spray systems." Note that "System 8-A" is earlier identified as Aluminum flame-spray with a 0.010 inch coverage. One entry from the referenced table (Table 5-2: "Recommended Thermal Spray Systems for Seawater Immersion Components") is of particular interest: "Exterior surfaces of steel hulls ... 6-Z-A, 8-A" Note that 6-Z-A is 85/15 zinc/aluminum to a 0.016 inch coverage ... but that the 8-A is emboldened to show that it is the preferred system. The manual also suggests another use: "Section 5-10: Nonskid "...because of their greater hardness and roughness, aluminum thermal spray coatings are superior for many nonskid applications. The nonskid coating system is achieved by first applying aluminum thermal spray system 8-A. An additional spray pass of aluminum is then applied using reduced atomization air pressure. The lower air pressure allows for the deposition of larger spray particles that produce a rougher surface. Nonskid coatings should be sealed with thin film epoxies."| 11986|11984|2006-10-29 13:04:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: sandblasting inside|Tom, The shop vac will be a total waste of time. I used one when grinding inside compartments on a fiberglass boat. It barely kept up with the dust from that. They are typically around 100 cfm at low pressure, while your sand blaster is in the same range at a much higher pressure. It doesn't have a chance of helping you. To be effective you'd need a ducted fan at several hundred CFM to even be worth the time to set it up. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom" To: Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 10:32 AM Subject: [origamiboats] sandblasting inside > Hello All > Well now that the outside of my 26 is blasted and primed I have the nasty > job of the inside that I dont want to do. There dosnt seem to be any > proffesional blasters around here because I have been looking, would > gladly pay to get it done. Sense I have to do it myself I am figuring a > way to make it a little better . What I am thinking is make a scoop type > funnel that attaches to the shop vac and use magnets to hold it to the > hull, place it just ahead of the blast area because when you blast with a > pressure pot system you blast between 45-60% angle, should be able to > blast toward the scoop and catch a lot of the dust. I am going to > downsize the nozzle a bit and put a ball valve just behind it so it can be > stopped to move the scoop or wait till dust clears out to see again. The > shop vac will be setting out side the keel with the hose running through a > hole in the side and a big fan on top of forward hatch blowing in. It > should be a little better at least be able to see what I am | 11987|11987|2006-10-29 13:11:46|tom|sandblasting inside progress|The shop vac is useless against the dust, the fan on forward hatch does realy help and being able to stop blasting for a couple minutes lets things settle, at least working by myself I can shut it down without climbing in or out of boat with it blasting. It wont be as bad as I thought. The only problem now is the boats is off the trailer and to close to house, I only blasted about 5 minutes trying it out,looked out and there was a big cloud of dust over the house, wifes not to happy about that Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11988|11985|2006-10-30 09:53:39|khooper_fboats|Re: Flame spray|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > perform in seawater immersion service. Aluminum thermal spray coatings > have seen much wider use in marine environments, and they are > generally preferred over the zinc-containing coatings for seawater > immersion. Hmmm, should be able to use regular old mig wire then and it's half the price of zinc. > Note that "System 8-A" is earlier identified as Aluminum flame-spray > with a 0.010 inch coverage. Whoops, there goes the discount. =^ ) Could one not spray cupro-nickel below the waterline also?| 11989|11985|2006-10-30 10:06:10|racer577@citystar.com|Re: Flame spray|You would not want to use the copper since its electric potential is a lot less than steel. The steel would corrode and not the copper. zinc has a galvanic potential of -.98 to -1.03, and aluminum is -.76 to -1.00, so they are pretty close. Mild steel is -.6 to -.71. From my understanding the material with the lower voltage potential corrods first, so zinc or aluminum will corrode faster than the steel. John > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > >> perform in seawater immersion service. Aluminum thermal spray coatings >> have seen much wider use in marine environments, and they are >> generally preferred over the zinc-containing coatings for seawater >> immersion. > > Hmmm, should be able to use regular old mig wire then and it's half > the price of zinc. > >> Note that "System 8-A" is earlier identified as Aluminum flame-spray >> with a 0.010 inch coverage. > > Whoops, there goes the discount. =^ ) > > Could one not spray cupro-nickel below the waterline also? > > > | 11990|11985|2006-10-30 12:51:58|khooper_fboats|Re: Flame spray|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, racer577@... wrote: > > You would not want to use the copper since its electric potential is a lot > less than steel. They should not corrode no matter what their electric potentials are if I understand it correctly. Galvanic corrosion is oxidation, and oxidation requires oxygen, and there should be no oxygen present between the hull and the flame spray. Unless it is porous somehow, in which case it was done wrong. Am I missing something? --Ken| 11991|11984|2006-10-30 15:29:32|brentswain38|Re: sandblasting inside|There is a gizmo calleed Vacu- blast which runs the sand blaster thru a 2 inch elbow which is hooked up to a vacuum. It works with small blasters, but I'm not sure how well it will work with a big one. The last time I blasted a boat inside , I cut a 6 inch by 12 iinch hole in the low point of the keel to let the sand out . With a little pushing of sand it helped a lot. After the job was done , it was easy to blast the piece I had cut out , weld it back in, then grind and blast the weld.It saved a lot of work and trouble. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > Well now that the outside of my 26 is blasted and primed I have the nasty job of the inside that I dont want to do. There dosnt seem to be any proffesional blasters around here because I have been looking, would gladly pay to get it done. Sense I have to do it myself I am figuring a way to make it a little better . What I am thinking is make a scoop type funnel that attaches to the shop vac and use magnets to hold it to the hull, place it just ahead of the blast area because when you blast with a pressure pot system you blast between 45-60% angle, should be able to blast toward the scoop and catch a lot of the dust. I am going to downsize the nozzle a bit and put a ball valve just behind it so it can be stopped to move the scoop or wait till dust clears out to see again. The shop vac will be setting out side the keel with the hose running through a hole in the side and a big fan on top of forward hatch blowing in. It should be a little better at least be able to see what I am doing. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11992|11985|2006-10-30 15:31:51|brentswain38|Re: Flame spray|The slightest scratch and the steel under the copper would corode rapidly. Believing it would be impervious would be a huge mistake. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, racer577@ wrote: > > > > You would not want to use the copper since its electric potential is > a lot > > less than steel. > > They should not corrode no matter what their electric potentials are > if I understand it correctly. Galvanic corrosion is oxidation, and > oxidation requires oxygen, and there should be no oxygen present > between the hull and the flame spray. Unless it is porous somehow, in > which case it was done wrong. > > Am I missing something? > > --Ken > | 11993|11985|2006-10-30 16:57:34|khooper_fboats|Re: Flame spray|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The slightest scratch and the steel under the copper would corode > rapidly. Believing it would be impervious would be a huge mistake. Okay, I looked at a table and I understand what you're saying now. In the case of a zinc or aluminum coating, if scratched, the coating would corrode and the steel wouldn't. But in the case of a cu-ny coating, the steel would corrode and the coating would stay inert. I stand corrected. --Ken| 11994|11985|2006-10-30 17:02:33|ryan tinsley|Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Hello, I intend to wet sandblast my boat with a 4000 PSI pressure washer which I did not realize was a possibility until recently. I also intend to use 5 coats of coal tar epoxy. My question is can I get by without a primer and if so how. The coats must be layered on wet and of course I will only be able to blast so much area at a time. Really what I want to know is how Brent would tackle this process. Not to ramble on but water sandblasting solves many of the problems recently discussed on the forum. No dust cloud and less noise pollution. It also gives you the option of doing delicate work using baking soda. When you are done with the washer you can install the pump in your boat and use it as a wash down pump, touch up sandblaster and desalinate. That's making the most out of a tool. Thank you for any feed back. Ryan --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11995|11985|2006-10-30 18:25:57|tom|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Hello Ryan I thought about water blasting allso but the problem is it will have rust bloom on it before you can get paint on it, some paint maufactures say its ok but most say no rust bloom. The way I look at it if I am going to the trouble of cleaning- blasting I want it clean and no rust Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "ryan tinsley" To: Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy > Hello, I intend to wet sandblast my boat with a 4000 PSI pressure > washer which I did not realize was a possibility until recently. I also > intend to use 5 coats of coal tar epoxy. My question is can I get by > without a primer and if so how. The coats must be layered on wet and of > course I will only be able to blast so much area at a time. Really what I > want to know is how Brent would tackle this process. > Not to ramble on but water sandblasting solves many of the problems > recently discussed on the forum. No dust cloud and less noise pollution. > It also gives you the option of doing delicate work using baking soda. > When you are done with the washer you can install the pump in your boat > and use it as a wash down pump, touch up sandblaster and desalinate. > That's making the most out of a tool. Thank you for any feed back. Ryan > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 11996|11996|2006-10-30 19:01:30|tom|Sandblasting inside|Anyone tryed a product called Clean Blast ? I just got off the phone with a sandblasting supplyer and this is what he recomends for doing the inside. It is a copper slag and from what he explained doesnt pulverize like sand and can be reused, not near as much dust and no health isuese like silica. It cost about 3X that of silica sand but I guess if I can reuse it and it dont kill me might be worth it. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 11997|11996|2006-10-31 17:00:24|brentswain38|Re: Sandblasting inside|Its pretty good stuff. Being black it doesn't reflect the light ,so reduces visibility less. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Anyone tryed a product called Clean Blast ? I just got off the phone with a sandblasting supplyer and this is what he recomends for doing the inside. It is a copper slag and from what he explained doesnt pulverize like sand and can be reused, not near as much dust and no health isuese like silica. It cost about 3X that of silica sand but I guess if I can reuse it and it dont kill me might be worth it. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 11998|11985|2006-10-31 17:10:30|brentswain38|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Friends hauled out in Ventura California and wet blasted in hot , dry California weather . As the hull was being blasted they went behind the blaster with rags , drying the hull as quickly as possible.They did get a slight instant rust bloom but as it was very hot and dry, they put the epoxy tar on what there was as a rust boom and had no trouble with it for decades after.I wouldn't try it in anything but hot dry weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello Ryan > I thought about water blasting allso but the problem is it will have rust > bloom on it before you can get paint on it, some paint maufactures say its > ok but most say no rust bloom. The way I look at it if I am going to the > trouble of cleaning- blasting I want it clean and no rust > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ryan tinsley" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 1:58 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy > > > > Hello, I intend to wet sandblast my boat with a 4000 PSI pressure > > washer which I did not realize was a possibility until recently. I also > > intend to use 5 coats of coal tar epoxy. My question is can I get by > > without a primer and if so how. The coats must be layered on wet and of > > course I will only be able to blast so much area at a time. Really what I > > want to know is how Brent would tackle this process. > > Not to ramble on but water sandblasting solves many of the problems > > recently discussed on the forum. No dust cloud and less noise pollution. > > It also gives you the option of doing delicate work using baking soda. > > When you are done with the washer you can install the pump in your boat > > and use it as a wash down pump, touch up sandblaster and desalinate. > > That's making the most out of a tool. Thank you for any feed back. Ryan > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > | 11999|11985|2006-10-31 17:44:46|jim dorey|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|brentswain38 wrote: > > > Friends hauled out in Ventura California and wet blasted in hot , dry > California weather . As the hull was being blasted they went behind > the blaster with rags , drying the hull as quickly as possible.They > did get a slight instant rust bloom but as it was very hot and dry, > they put the epoxy tar on what there was as a rust boom and had no > trouble with it for decades after.I wouldn't try it in anything but > hot dry weather. > Brent kerosene instead of water, or vegetable oil, a kind that won't impede the bond, alcohol in desperation? i suppose a ventilation system would be a good idea, with the intake upwind of the hull, all sources of flame extinguished. in the summer hot water would evaporate off quicker.| 12000|12000|2006-10-31 19:44:01|Alex|Origami Sled|Julian put up a vid on Youtube of my boat skittering across the field on it's "keel skis" behind a tow truck! Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9JYXMxa0o Alex|