12001|11985|2006-10-31 22:16:56|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|On Tue, October 31, 2006 16:53, brentswain38 wrote: > Friends hauled out in Ventura California and wet blasted in hot , dry > California weather . As the hull was being blasted they went behind > the blaster with rags , drying the hull as quickly as possible.They did get > a slight instant rust bloom but as it was very hot and dry, they put the > epoxy tar on what there was as a rust boom and had no trouble with it for > decades after.I wouldn't try it in anything but hot dry weather. Brent > Speaking as somebody who's never done it, this brings an idea and a couple of questions to mind: - Is wet blasting considered "easier" or at least less objectionable to do than dry? It sounds like it If that is true, then: - Would wet blasting to get all the mill scale and "crud" off, then a quick pass in a couple of days dry blasting to get the rust bloom off be easier? - Would it be enough easier to bother making two passes (I'm betting not, but...) Bruce > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > >> >> Hello Ryan >> I thought about water blasting allso but the problem is it will >> > have rust >> bloom on it before you can get paint on it, some paint maufactures > say its >> ok but most say no rust bloom. The way I look at it if I am going > to the >> trouble of cleaning- blasting I want it clean and no rust Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "ryan tinsley" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 1:58 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy >> >> >> >>> Hello, I intend to wet sandblast my boat with a 4000 PSI >>> > pressure >>> washer which I did not realize was a possibility until recently. > I also > >>> intend to use 5 coats of coal tar epoxy. My question is can I > get by >>> without a primer and if so how. The coats must be layered on > wet and of >>> course I will only be able to blast so much area at a time. > Really what I > >>> want to know is how Brent would tackle this process. Not to ramble on >>> but water sandblasting solves many of the > problems >>> recently discussed on the forum. No dust cloud and less noise > pollution. >>> It also gives you the option of doing delicate work using baking >>> > soda. >>> When you are done with the washer you can install the pump in >>> > your boat >>> and use it as a wash down pump, touch up sandblaster and > desalinate. >>> That's making the most out of a tool. Thank you for any feed >>> > back. Ryan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small >>> > Business. > >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- Bruce C. Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 12002|11985|2006-10-31 22:36:29|David A. Frantz|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Wait a minute here don't go the Alcohol route, the last thing you want to do with that is to spray it around and create a cloud of air and alcohol. BOOM! Even kerosene would have me worried a bit. Dave jim dorey wrote: > brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > Friends hauled out in Ventura California and wet blasted in hot , dry > > California weather . As the hull was being blasted they went behind > > the blaster with rags , drying the hull as quickly as possible.They > > did get a slight instant rust bloom but as it was very hot and dry, > > they put the epoxy tar on what there was as a rust boom and had no > > trouble with it for decades after.I wouldn't try it in anything but > > hot dry weather. > > Brent > > kerosene instead of water, or vegetable oil, a kind that won't impede > the bond, alcohol in > desperation? i suppose a ventilation system would be a good idea, with > the intake upwind of > the hull, all sources of flame extinguished. in the summer hot water > would evaporate off quicker. > > | 12003|11985|2006-10-31 23:27:46|ryan tinsley|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|The issue of rust bloom with water sandblasting has been addressed in heavy industry by the development of rust inhibitor products that are additives to the blasting water. All you need to use these products is a pressure washer with a chemical/detergent pick-up. Here is one option http://www.holdtight.com/. For me the decision is made to wet blast. The neighbors won't complain and the set up for a comparable air compressor sandblasting rig is far more expensive and far less portable. jim dorey wrote: brentswain38 wrote: > > > Friends hauled out in Ventura California and wet blasted in hot , dry > California weather . As the hull was being blasted they went behind > the blaster with rags , drying the hull as quickly as possible.They > did get a slight instant rust bloom but as it was very hot and dry, > they put the epoxy tar on what there was as a rust boom and had no > trouble with it for decades after.I wouldn't try it in anything but > hot dry weather. > Brent kerosene instead of water, or vegetable oil, a kind that won't impede the bond, alcohol in desperation? i suppose a ventilation system would be a good idea, with the intake upwind of the hull, all sources of flame extinguished. in the summer hot water would evaporate off quicker. --------------------------------- Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12004|11985|2006-11-01 00:58:18|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Kerosen or oils would make the steel hard to bond anything to. It is recomended not to use Kerosene heaters to heat a shop becouse it puts a film on the hull from its soot that interfears with bonding. Jon > > kerosene instead of water, or vegetable oil, a kind that won't impede the bond, alcohol in > desperation? i suppose a ventilation system would be a good idea, with the intake upwind of > the hull, all sources of flame extinguished. in the summer hot water would evaporate off quicker. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12005|11985|2006-11-01 04:00:02|sae140|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Have you considered using a polyurethane varnish (such as G4) direct to the steel, with several layers of epoxy tar over ? Polyurethane uses moisture to cure and harden and so might be an appropriate primer to use if wetblasting. Colin| 12006|11985|2006-11-01 17:03:14|woodcraftssuch|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|With the sand beating against steel, there are plenty of sparks. Blast at night and you can see it is a glowing ball of flame more or less. Sam --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Wait a minute here don't go the Alcohol route, the last thing you want > to do with that is to spray it around and create a cloud of air and > alcohol. BOOM! Even kerosene would have me worried a bit. > > > > > kerosene instead of water, or vegetable oil, a kind that won't impede > > the bond, alcohol in > > desperation? i suppose a ventilation system would be a good idea, with > > the intake upwind of > > the hull, all sources of flame extinguished. in the summer hot water > > would evaporate off quicker. > > > > > | 12007|11985|2006-11-01 17:23:10|brentswain38|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|Wasser makes a polyurethane based tar which is excellent for the job and roughly the same price as epoxy tar( wasser tar)It has a matt finish which is not that fussy about overcoat time ,which makes it ideal for painting in changeable weather. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Have you considered using a polyurethane varnish (such as G4) direct > to the steel, with several layers of epoxy tar over ? > > Polyurethane uses moisture to cure and harden and so might be an > appropriate primer to use if wetblasting. > > Colin > | 12008|11985|2006-11-01 18:52:18|David A. Frantz|Re: Water sandblasting & coal tar epoxy|That would be interesting! A shower of sparks, you would become a major evening attraction. While we are on the subject of paints and coatings and application there of, has anybody considered spray on bed lining materials for the interiors? It is my understanding that the materials used for bed liners where originally sold to the navy so it seems possible that they would work in smaller ships. I don't know the navies actual usage, I saw reference to such when reading an artical on how to reinforce bullet proof vests ceramic plates. Knowing about how polyurethanes bond though this seems like a good material for interior application. Thanks Dave woodcraftssuch wrote: > With the sand beating against steel, there are plenty of sparks. > Blast at night and you can see it is a glowing ball of flame more or > less. Sam > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Wait a minute here don't go the Alcohol route, the last thing you > want > > to do with that is to spray it around and create a cloud of air and > > alcohol. BOOM! Even kerosene would have me worried a bit. > > > > > > > > kerosene instead of water, or vegetable oil, a kind that won't > impede > > > the bond, alcohol in > > > desperation? i suppose a ventilation system would be a good idea, > with > > > the intake upwind of > > > the hull, all sources of flame extinguished. in the summer hot > water > > > would evaporate off quicker. > > > > > > > > > > | 12009|12000|2006-11-01 21:51:07|aaron riis|Re: Origami Sled|Alex, had you ballasted the boat before you towed it?Aaron --- Alex wrote: > Julian put up a vid on Youtube of my boat skittering > across the field on it's "keel skis" > behind a tow truck! > > Watch here: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9JYXMxa0o > > Alex > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)| 12010|12010|2006-11-02 10:27:50|lucyisatallgirl004|Sexy tall beauty online, check them out!|Sexy tall beauty online, check them out! http://wad345tall333.bravehost.com| 12011|12010|2006-11-02 10:30:31|lucyisatallgirl004|Sexy tall beauty online, check them out!|Sexy tall beauty online, check them out! http://wad345tall333.bravehost.com| 12012|3564|2006-11-03 08:51:00|tom|Mast step|Hello All On my 26 I want to build a taller mast step, about 10"-12" taller for ease of stepping mast single handed. This way the mast can be laying on stearn rail and pined to the step. My question is, How much side load is on the mast at the base and is it that extreem that the step would have to be built extra heavy? Thanks Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12013|12013|2006-11-03 21:35:04|asdqweryuiop|Tall beauty looking for a online romance!|Tall beauty looking for a online romance! http://ted451tall999.bravehost.com| 12014|3564|2006-11-03 21:47:32|brentswain38|Re: Mast step|As long as your rigging is intact there is very little side load on the step. It's mostly compression. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Hello All > On my 26 I want to build a taller mast step, about 10"-12" taller for ease of stepping mast single handed. This way the mast can be laying on stearn rail and pined to the step. My question is, How much side load is on the mast at the base and is it that extreem that the step would have to be built extra heavy? > Thanks > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12015|3564|2006-11-04 01:12:12|Alex Christie|best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Ok All, I found a scrap keel in Vancouver at the right price - now the problem is how to cut up a 6000 lb keel into bits I can take away. Any ideas as to how is best way? I've heard of using a chainsaw, but it seems like it would generate a lot of lead chips. What about a rented oversize "Stihl" brand or similar gas power circular saw? Will it bind? I'll probably use my circular saw to shallow cut the fibreglass which encapsulates the keel, that should be no problem (he hopes). I'm seeing it on Sunday, so please advise pronto. I dunno how I will carry it otherwise :( Alex| 12016|3564|2006-11-04 01:56:05|tom|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Hello Alex If you can get a long enough blade for a sawzall it would cut it up a lot cleaner Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 10:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] best way to cut lead keel? advise please! > Ok All, > > I found a scrap keel in Vancouver at the right price - now the problem > is how to cut up a 6000 lb keel into bits I can take away. Any ideas > as to how is best way? > > I've heard of using a chainsaw, but it seems like it would generate a > lot of lead chips. > > What about a rented oversize "Stihl" brand or similar gas power > circular saw? Will it bind? > > I'll probably use my circular saw to shallow cut the fibreglass which > encapsulates the keel, that should be no problem (he hopes). > > I'm seeing it on Sunday, so please advise pronto. I dunno how I will > carry it otherwise :( > > Alex > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 12017|3564|2006-11-04 02:01:24|Peter Muth|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|This operation can be done with some tricks of melting points. Basically, place the keel on a fairly thin sheet of steel (a high melting point drip tray), and cut up the lead (low melting point) with a torch (not with a cutting tip (too much spatter), but with a braising tip.) The lead that you melt to separate the keel into pieces will flow nicely onto the steel and harden. The fiberglass (probably higher melting point than lead, but lower than the torch temp) may pose some interference to this process. You can always burn the resin out of the glass and then scrape the charred remains off of the ballast (if you don't mind having a smoky fire for a while), or otherwise perhaps use of an air chisel will work. Maybe someone else will have a better idea than that. In any case, to avoid the lead sticking to the steel sheet, spray paint the steel in advance, with some high heat paint. If you are going to do this cutup in one marathon cutting event, the steel will not be able to absorb enough heat to solidify all of the lead (the steel will get too hot, and the lead will run off of the sheet before solidifying.) If this is the case, bend the edges of the steel up a little. This will make a sort of pan to catch the drippings. This should be sufficient, as the steel will spread out the heat, and keep the whole thing cool enough to avoid any spillage. You can always use plywood in place of the steel, but the lead will probably (in my experience anyway) stick to the plywood. Though with the amount of cutting that you will be needing to do, the plywood will be well charred, and may not provide such a good bonding surface. The plywood will not harden nearly as much lead as the steel will, so adding boards at the edge to avoid spilling molten lead will be a must. The steel can probably be cleaned after this, but the wood would have to be discarded. You may want to use a thin sheet, on top of a sheet thick enough to hold the weight. This way only the thin sheet gets destroyed by contamination and charring. As always, appropriate gas masks and post-melt decontamination procedures are a must. Good luck, Peter Alex Christie wrote: > > Ok All, > > I found a scrap keel in Vancouver at the right price - now the problem > is how to cut up a 6000 lb keel into bits I can take away. Any ideas > as to how is best way? > > I've heard of using a chainsaw, but it seems like it would generate a > lot of lead chips. > > What about a rented oversize "Stihl" brand or similar gas power > circular saw? Will it bind? > > I'll probably use my circular saw to shallow cut the fibreglass which > encapsulates the keel, that should be no problem (he hopes). > > I'm seeing it on Sunday, so please advise pronto. I dunno how I will > carry it otherwise :( > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12018|3564|2006-11-04 05:57:30|edward_stoneuk|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex, The lead for our keels was mainly sheet offcuts and old pipe so we did not have this problem. It will take a lot of heat and time to melt so unless you can melt it into ingots that you can use directly in your keels you will be melting twice. If you do use a chainsaw, and I have only used them for wood and once, after emptying the lubrication oil, for cutting up a large frozen tuna, you will need to lay the keel on a large sheet or tarpaulin to catch the chips. The chips from the chainsaw will be easier to handle than dust from a circular saw. Depending on where the chips fly you may need to hang a tarpaulin wall as well. Lead is a toxic metal so best not to eat it or leave bits on the ground for future generations. We have a couple of photos on Origamiboat 2 (Ted & Fiona's boat bits) showing us melting and pouring lead into the keels, which we did before we winched them up into the boat. Good luck, Ted| 12019|12019|2006-11-04 11:11:23|John Fisher|Input on building a BS 36 or 40?|I am finally ready to order the plans so I can start building, but I have not decided if I should build the 36 or the 40. The plan is for the boat to be a live aboard for a couple. I am leaning to the 40 to get extra room and put in more tankage, since some of the photo's I have seen of the 36's are just covered with extra water/fuel tanks on deck. I have chartered a 33 foot and it was too small for extended cruising or live aboard. Any costs I should be aware of beyond the extra materials to build the 40 vs the 36? I have checked on the local oversize loads and there is no difference due to the width differences. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12020|3564|2006-11-04 19:57:35|Alex Christie|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Thanks to all for the advice, I will bring a handful of tools with me and see which attacks the chunk best. On the subject of installing lead in the keel(s), I've decided to go with fitted dry larger chunks, then do minimal melted lead pours to fill the gaps, or place small pieces of lead over the gaps then tiger torch them till they melt and run down. Even if there are the odd air pockets, it's not worth the health hazard to do an entire pour. Alex| 12021|12019|2006-11-04 20:38:30|Alex Christie|Re: Input on building a BS 36 or 40?|The 36 vs 40 debate is very subjective -- I've met many couples who are entirely content with a 36 footer for all their needs, including full time living aboard. One family lives aboard full time on a 36 (two adults, two small kids). I am sometimes unsure about my 36 as full time liveaboard with my girls when they turn teen, though that perhaps is an incentive to build them their own boat :p If it was only a couple, with the odd guest for a passage, I'd stick with the 36 footer and invest in a watermaker. Your boat will still sail without diesel fuell, but you won't sail well without water to drink. I don't know if tankage is as much an issue as it used to be. Steel boat cabin tops are great for catching water and funneling it into a tank, too -- something hard to retrofit onto a used glass boat. I might yearn for the extra space of a 40, but I don't yearn for the work of building her for my first project! Whenever possible go and visit a 40 under construction and a 40 in the water, and ask lots of questions. Bring cookies or wine in return for the time the owners take out of their project to serve your research. I visited a steel and an aluminum 40 (ok I forgot to bring cookies), and in both cases I was impressed by the available increase in volume but also sufficiently humbled by the evident increase in work and handling of the component parts (from building to outfitting with engines. The adage about cost being closely connected to displacement would also apply to steel boats. A recent quote for steel for a 36 footer came out to around $11,000 CDN. Brent has pointed out to me that on the other hand, all the detailing pieces are about the same cost and same work, since a bow roller is identical work and cost to build on the 36 as it is for the 40, including many other parts (cleats, etc). Handrails are longer, and so are some stainless trim pieces. The over-all cost increase will be in the extra steel and larger engines (tho that could be debated when it comes to used diesels -- I have seen some used larger engines in the local rag that are very good deals, probably from fishing boats that are being dismantled). The only other daunting aspect is coatings: a 40 has much more surface area to deal with, but once it's done, it's over. I am glad I'm doing the 36 for my first boat, and perhaps at some point in the future I'll do a 40, but I'll have learned so much with the 36 that it's bound to help me when doing a 40. There are many things that you promise yourself you'll do differently if you were to do it again. Keep in mind that a well-found 36 footer will also sell for more than you put into it (if you follow the proper scrounging techniques we all hold dear), effectively bankrolling your 40. In that way, you could get a 40 for the price of a 36, not including your labour. I've learned quickly that my project's progress is a direct result of the presence of time and money. Though of course this is obvious to all, I did the thought of it aside because my film making took priority. Now I'm doing catch-up. If you remove one of the elements of time and money, the project halts. Personal willpower or spirit could be factored in there, too (some wags say building a boat costs you time, money and one marriage). If, after investigating fully, you really want a 40 and have a real action plan in place to take care of all attendant cost as they arise, then by all means do it. I'll probably be forever of a split mind on the 36 vs 40 issue (hehe, how about a 38?), especially after visiting a 54 footer and noting that it isn't actually that freakishly large, making a 40 seem quite compact by comparison! Conversely, go sailing on a 26 foot Swain for a summer (it's a completely capable little cruiser with at least one North America to Australia passage to its credit), then step into a 36 footer and marvel at the vast space. It's all relative, but I do believe that mid-sized boats (the 36) get out more than big boats which requiring more hands on deck, more fuel, bigger sails, higher moorage costs (unless you anchor out with a twin keeler), heavier rigging and larger engines. Alex On 4-Nov-06, at 8:01 AM, John Fisher wrote: > I am finally ready to order the plans so I can start building, but I > have > not decided if I should build the 36 or the 40. The plan is for the > boat to > be a live aboard for a couple. I am leaning to the 40 to get extra > room and > put in more tankage, since some of the photo's I have seen of the > 36's are > just covered with extra water/fuel tanks on deck. > > I have chartered a 33 foot and it was too small for extended cruising > or > live aboard. Any costs I should be aware of beyond the extra > materials to > build the 40 vs the 36? I have checked on the local oversize loads and > there is no difference due to the width differences. > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12022|3564|2006-11-05 05:11:02|edward_stoneuk|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex, Be very carefull when you tiger torch the lead inside the keels. First you will be looking down on the lead and getting all the fumes. Second the lead is a massive heat sink so will cool the little bit of lead poured over them very rapidly. To overcome this there is a tendency to heat a bit more, then the steel expands and the now molten lead fills the newly expanded keel and it all cools to a keel of a different shape than you started with. Regards, Ted| 12024|3564|2006-11-05 07:01:53|David A. Frantz|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Hi Alex; I would avoid anything that will throw large quantities of small lead particles about. It isn't good for you and you might get stuck with the cleanup bill. I'd suggest using an ax and keeping the pieces as large as reasonably possible. Not that I've tried cutting up a keel with an ax but I've cut up water heaters and other things that are easier to handle in small pieces. I've not tried to machine lead but I can't imagine it being a nice adventure. So while you could try to saw through it with power tools, you might not like the results. Sticking and binding blades would seem to be a reality, lubrication helps of course but I'm not sure what type of mess is acceptable. In any event in the machining trade, drilling is considered to be the quickest and most effiecent method of removing material. So you could consider chain drilling a bunch of holes to make for easier cutting with a saw or a ax. You might want to consider an old carpenters hand saw which may be usefully if the teeth are ground right. All of the above are ideas if you absolutely need to make little pieces out of a big rock. The other option is to go down to the local towing service and have them pick the whole keel up with a flat bed. This is likely to be the cheapest way to move the thing around whole. Keeping the unit whole may help preserve as much value as can be had out of the keel. In the end I would not cut it up until all other options are exhausted. Dave Alex Christie wrote: > Ok All, > > I found a scrap keel in Vancouver at the right price - now the problem > is how to cut up a 6000 lb keel into bits I can take away. Any ideas > as to how is best way? > > I've heard of using a chainsaw, but it seems like it would generate a > lot of lead chips. > > What about a rented oversize "Stihl" brand or similar gas power > circular saw? Will it bind? > > I'll probably use my circular saw to shallow cut the fibreglass which > encapsulates the keel, that should be no problem (he hopes). > > I'm seeing it on Sunday, so please advise pronto. I dunno how I will > carry it otherwise :( > > Alex > > | 12025|12019|2006-11-05 11:40:51|Kevin Curry|Re: Input on building a BS 36 or 40?|Just keep in mind that every hour and dollar you put into building is an hour and dollar you didn't spend sailing or otherwise living. My boat story took a different turn: After significant struggle with the desire to build, I decided to concentrate on my business and my family. Result was: I bought a mint used 48 for cash, my family is intact, and boating is something I do as a part of a larger and more satisfying life. Just my 2c. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com)| 12026|12026|2006-11-05 15:49:25|wilfordrh|36' Swain hull for sale|The following is for sale: Swain 36' Pilothouse Fin keel hull located Vancouver Island, British Columbia,Canada. With the exception of a couple of deck beams in the pilothouse and the rudder bottom all welding is complete. Ports cut, bulwark fitted, hatch openings in.A couple of hours welding and she's done. Stainless mast step and box, stainless scupper surrounds and enough stainless to fabricate an anchor roller are included, plus stainless pipe for log shaft. Asking Canadian $8,750.00, which is less than the price of steel required to build.Selling due to lifestyle changes.PLEASE! serious enquiries only, no tire kickers! Will send pictures to serious enquirers only. Contact swain4sale@...| 12027|12026|2006-11-05 15:50:53|wilfordrh|36' Swain hull for sale|The following is for sale: Swain 36' Pilothouse Fin keel hull located Vancouver Island, British Columbia,Canada. With the exception of a couple of deck beams in the pilothouse and the rudder bottom all welding is complete. Ports cut, bulwark fitted, hatch openings in.A couple of hours welding and she's done. Stainless mast step and box, stainless scupper surrounds and enough stainless to fabricate an anchor roller are included, plus stainless pipe for log shaft. Asking Canadian $8,750.00, which is less than the price of steel required to build.Selling due to lifestyle changes.PLEASE! serious enquiries only, no tire kickers! Will send pictures to serious enquirers only. Contact swain4sale@...| 12028|12019|2006-11-05 16:04:54|brentswain38|Re: Input on building a BS 36 or 40?|I've always built my own boats and have been semi retired since I was 26 years old, working a month or less a year, crossed the Pacific 9 times and cruised year round the rest of the time in BC. As I mentioned in my book, you can judge the value of advice by what it has doing for the person offering it. Did you manage to semi retire at 26? Have I been doing it all wrong? My cuurent boat cost me $6,000 and one summer to get sailing.It is totally custom made to my specs and needs , not someone elses. How many years did it take you to get totally off the treadmill? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry wrote: > > Just keep in mind that every hour and dollar you put > into building is an hour and dollar you didn't spend > sailing or otherwise living. My boat story took a > different turn: > > After significant struggle with the desire to build, I > decided to concentrate on my business and my family. > Result was: I bought a mint used 48 for cash, my > family is intact, and boating is something I do as a > part of a larger and more satisfying life. > > Just my 2c. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates > (http://voice.yahoo.com) > | 12029|12026|2006-11-05 16:13:07|J & H Fuller|Re: 36' Swain hull for sale|Where on Vancouver Island? John. Campbell River. -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of wilfordrh Sent: November 5, 2006 12:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] 36' Swain hull for sale The following is for sale: Swain 36' Pilothouse Fin keel hull located Vancouver Island, British Columbia,Canada. With the exception of a couple of deck beams in the pilothouse and the rudder bottom all welding is complete. Ports cut, bulwark fitted, hatch openings in.A couple of hours welding and she's done. Stainless mast step and box, stainless scupper surrounds and enough stainless to fabricate an anchor roller are included, plus stainless pipe for log shaft. Asking Canadian $8,750.00, which is less than the price of steel required to build.Selling due to lifestyle changes.PLEASE! serious enquiries only, no tire kickers! Will send pictures to serious enquirers only. Contact swain4sale@... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 04/11/2006 5:30 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12030|3564|2006-11-05 19:52:41|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex I tried most of the tools in my shop when I chopped up a 7 ton keel. Some included were small jack hammer, ax, sledge hammer banging into a big chisel, sawsall, to list a few. A chain saw and big ass tarp to catch the chips was my method of choice. Gerald| 12031|3564|2006-11-05 19:53:05|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex I tried most of the tools in my shop when I chopped up a 7 ton keel. Some included were small jack hammer, ax, sledge hammer banging into a big chisel, sawsall, to list a few. A chain saw and big ass tarp to catch the chips was my method of choice. Gerald| 12032|3564|2006-11-05 20:00:23|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex I tried most of the tools in my shop when I chopped up a 7 ton keel. Some included were small jack hammer, ax, sledge hammer banging into a big chisel, sawsall, to list a few. A chain saw and big tarp to catch the chips was my method of choice. Gerald| 12033|3564|2006-11-06 03:57:33|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|With a chainsaw, did you still use the chain oil? I guess it doesn't matter if the lead chips that result get a little oily, it'll burn off when melted again. I've got various tools to attack it -- I'll let you know how I do! Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger Date: Sunday, November 5, 2006 4:53 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please! > Alex > I tried most of the tools in my shop when I chopped up a 7 ton > keel. > Some included were small jack hammer, ax, sledge hammer banging > into a > big chisel, sawsall, to list a few. A chain saw and big tarp to > catch > the chips was my method of choice. > Gerald > > > | 12034|3564|2006-11-06 14:43:27|edward_stoneuk|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex, I would think that you use oil on the chain a bit of oil in the lead melt will not do any harm. Would tend to lessen the formation of led oxide. We used a wooden stick to stir the lead. Regards, Ted| 12035|3564|2006-11-06 16:20:15|Peter Muth|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Alex, While I personally still recommend melting the thing into blocks as I mentioned earlier, if you are going to try a chainsaw, I suggest lots of oil. The oil will help cool the chain, and help the chain keep its sharpness longer. The technique is often used when machining metal in a lathe/mill, etc. If you have an assistant drip/squirt oil (carefully) onto the chain while you are cutting, you can dramatically reduce the production of lead-laden gases. If you don't use enough oil, the cutting friction will start to smoke the oil, the smoke will contain lead. I don't know if the chainsaw's continuous chain oiler will provide enough oil to keep things from smoking. Lots of ventilation is a good idea here... Anyway, you can also use water, along with the continuous oiler, or better yet, put a water + dish washing detergent liquid (dawn, joy, palmolive, etc) solution into the oiler instead of the normal chain oil. Then, spray additional water/detergent mix onto the chain/cut area from a spray bottle run by your assistant. (The chain will obviously need cleaning/oiling after this.) Unfortunately, all of these chainsaw methods (oil, water, both, diswashing solution, completely dry, etc) WILL produce very tiny lead chips that will be tossed up into the air. These lead chips will be small enough to inhale, and will not settle before leaving the tarp covered area. Using the oxy-acetylene or oxy-mapp-gas torch method I discussed earlier (or probably even without the oxygen) will only produce very light gasses, and should be much less of a mess to cleanup. Good Luck with whatever you choose, Peter edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Alex, > > I would think that you use oil on the chain a bit of oil in the lead > melt will not do any harm. Would tend to lessen the formation of led > oxide. We used a wooden stick to stir the lead. > > Regards, > Ted > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12036|12036|2006-11-06 20:22:44|tom|BS 26 +|Hello All I guess I wont be sandblasting for a while, weather has changed, It was foggy here over the weekend till about 10:00 am. With all the moisture in the air I will wait till dry again. I did pickup about 10 bags of kleen blast "copper slag" to try on the inside. I built the mast step and mooring bit and installed them over the weekend, ended up using a spool gun with stainless solid wire and a trymix of gas, It worked good and the biggest difference I can see from using stick is the wire is a lot better out of position welding, price between the two about the same, not cheap but with stick you don't need any fancy equipment. 308L is easy to get in the 2 lbs spools but 309L I couldn't get so I used 70S-6 steel wire for the stainless to mild steel welds. 316 grade stainless steel is hard to find in the scrap yards around here and to get it new would be special order and I would have to buy full lengths, I wasn't willing to spend that much so everything is 304 grade. One thing that gets me is if you look through a westmarine catalog at the stainless goodies for boats they will call it a marine grade 304 stainless and charge an arm and leg for it !! Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12037|3564|2006-11-06 22:27:34|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Having delt with some heavy metal refining a large chunk of lead like silver will not melt or cut with a torch without getting it hot enough to be putting a lot in the air as a metal oxide. Lead oxide is as or more dangeres as welding zink plaiting to your health as well as the enviroment. When melting lead to cast you heat it slower and at a lower temp then with a torch that can easly have or go to a oxegenating flame and so it is safer to heat for casting then to cut. I would think taking it easy with a chain saw and maybe a little extra oil would work well. A electric jack hammer with a wide bit scoring a grove and workin in may work well too. With a torch you would want a realy good full face resperator with a chain saw a paper one and goggels with a electric jackhammer just ear plugs to be safe. Jon > While I personally still recommend melting the thing into blocks as I > mentioned earlier, | 12038|3564|2006-11-06 23:57:47|Peter Muth|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|I agree completely, the lead oxide needs to be handled, preferably with a *properly rated* gas mask, as I mentioned earlier. Remember, as cutting goes, what I am suggesting is more like "melting a slot" into the lead, than cutting in the typical "cutting torch" sense. It is comparable to soldering, an action that is taken every day, usually with no protective equipment at all, and often with an open flame. On another note, a particulate/gas mask is unfortunately probably necessary for the chain saw approach. The oil spray and possible smoke will be blowing around everywhere, and the paper mask (not to down your comment Jon, we may disagree here) has a lot of air leakage around the edges. The paper masks also usually claim they are not rated for any particulate level that you cannot breathe. They typically claim they are intended only to reduce nuisance level particle problems. Jon, I have to say, I like the jack hammer idea the best of all. This clearly has the least problems of any of the methods discussed. I have not tried using a jack hammer on a piece of lead, but since lead is highly malleable, the groove scoring method you described will likely be very important for any thicker section of the lead. Managing to (without the scoring) crack the lead off into pieces would be a challenge. (Unless this is a fairly brittle alloy of lead.) So with the technique you suggest, this is clearly the best idea yet. It would also benefit from a very sharp chisel, since this would allow the lead to come off in a ribbon rather than being mashed out of the way by a blunted chisel tip that (in the case of a rental) had probably been working on some concrete the previous day. Peter Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Having delt with some heavy metal refining a large chunk of lead like > silver will not melt or cut with a torch without getting it hot enough > to be putting a lot in the air as a metal oxide. Lead oxide is as or > more dangeres as welding zink plaiting to your health as well as the > enviroment. When melting lead to cast you heat it slower and at a lower > temp then with a torch that can easly have or go to a oxegenating flame > and so it is safer to heat for casting then to cut. I would think > taking it easy with a chain saw and maybe a little extra oil would work > well. A electric jack hammer with a wide bit scoring a grove and workin > in may work well too. With a torch you would want a realy good full > face resperator with a chain saw a paper one and goggels with a > electric jackhammer just ear plugs to be safe. > > Jon > > > While I personally still recommend melting the thing into blocks as I > > mentioned earlier, > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12039|12039|2006-11-07 00:31:58|jnikadie|Engine length|OK, so I've found an engine/transmission combo. The engine is the model I was after (Nissan SD22), and it's already in marine-trim (no need to come up with a bell housing to mate it to a transmission etc). Only problem is that the combo is a little longer than I was thinking (it's also a couple of inches wider, but I can work with that). The combo is a total of 49 inches from transmission coupling to pulleys ... and that puts the front of the engine at least 10 inches in front of the stringers (and into my pilothouse!). The transmission is a Borg-Warner Velvet Drive and is probably a large part of the problem (at 17 inches long). So, is this an insurmountable problem? Can anyone tell me how long their engine/tranny is? (particularly if you've got a Nissan SD22). How far forward of the companionway does the engine normally come? What transmissions are in use with SD22s elsewhere? Thanks, Julian.| 12040|3564|2006-11-07 15:50:03|Jim Douglas|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|If you could use an extra set of hands let me know. I understand the lead is here in Vancouver? If yes I'll need to get set up pronto with coveralls, mask, etc. but I'll need these anyway. Have you thought of this instead: Deliver the keel intact to a metal recycler, sell it to them and then use the cash to buy back what you need for ignots. Try to factor the price differential into what you pay for the keel. You probably will still pay something out of pocket but then what's it worth to you to avoid the nasties of lead laden gases?????Sometimes it's best to let the baker bake the bread!! If you still want to proceed the old fashioned way and therefore could use an extra hand let me know. Jim Douglas --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE wrote: > > With a chainsaw, did you still use the chain oil? I guess it doesn't matter if the lead chips that result get a little oily, it'll burn off when melted again. > > I've got various tools to attack it -- I'll let you know how I do! > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > Date: Sunday, November 5, 2006 4:53 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please! > > > Alex > > I tried most of the tools in my shop when I chopped up a 7 ton > > keel. > > Some included were small jack hammer, ax, sledge hammer banging > > into a > > big chisel, sawsall, to list a few. A chain saw and big tarp to > > catch > > the chips was my method of choice. > > Gerald > > > > > > > | 12041|3564|2006-11-07 16:11:11|ALEX CHRISTIE|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Hi Jim, I went to see the lead keel today, and something wasn't right. Some damage to the leading edge, where all keels hit reefs eventually, revealed that under the fibreglass were some round stones...and concrete. Who patches a lead keel with concrete? Also, when I grabbed one edge of the keel and lifted up and down, it was just too easy. I started to smell a rat, so I got out my skillsaw and set it shallow, cut off a panel of fibreglass, which popped off quite willingly revealing pure concrete underneath! I took out two more panels and finally found a wee chunk of lead. The owner of the keel was a little crestfallen, as the yard he bought it from said it was all lead. Buyer beware, I say! He then tried to sell me another keel, but a man from the yard came up and said that the yard owner had given it to him for being left there so long. Poor old guy was stumped. I told him I will buy whatever chunks of lead he gets out of his concrete keel after he jackhammers it open, b ut I don't know if I'll hear from him again. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Douglas Date: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 12:44 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please! > If you could use an extra set of hands let me know. I understand > the lead is here in Vancouver? > > If yes I'll need to get set up pronto with coveralls, mask, etc. > but > I'll need these anyway. > > Have you thought of this instead: Deliver the keel intact to a > metal > recycler, sell it to them and then use the cash to buy back what > you > need for ignots. Try to factor the price differential into what > you > pay for the keel. You probably will still pay something out of > pocket but then what's it worth to you to avoid the nasties of > lead > laden gases?????Sometimes it's best to let the baker bake the bread!! > > If you still want to proceed the old fashioned way and therefore > could use an extra hand let me know. > > Jim Douglas > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ALEX CHRISTIE > wrote: > > > > With a chainsaw, did you still use the chain oil? I guess it > doesn't matter if the lead chips that result get a little oily, > it'll burn off when melted again. > > > > I've got various tools to attack it -- I'll let you know how I do! > > > > Alex > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gerald Niffenegger > > Date: Sunday, November 5, 2006 4:53 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise > please! > > > > > Alex > > > I tried most of the tools in my shop when I chopped up a 7 ton > > > keel. > > > Some included were small jack hammer, ax, sledge hammer > banging > > > into a > > > big chisel, sawsall, to list a few. A chain saw and big tarp > to > > > catch > > > the chips was my method of choice. > > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12042|12026|2006-11-07 18:46:38|brentswain38|Re: 36' Swain hull for sale|Last time I saw it it was in a works yard at the south end of Parksvillle. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J & H Fuller" wrote: > > Where on Vancouver Island? John. Campbell River. > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On > Behalf Of wilfordrh > Sent: November 5, 2006 12:46 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] 36' Swain hull for sale > > > The following is for sale: Swain 36' Pilothouse Fin keel hull located > Vancouver Island, British Columbia,Canada. With the exception of a couple of > deck beams in the pilothouse and the rudder bottom all welding is complete. > Ports cut, bulwark fitted, hatch openings in.A couple of hours welding and > she's done. Stainless mast step and box, stainless scupper surrounds and > enough stainless to fabricate an anchor roller are included, plus stainless > pipe for log shaft. Asking Canadian $8,750.00, which is less than the price > of steel required to build.Selling due to lifestyle changes.PLEASE! serious > enquiries only, no tire kickers! Will send pictures to serious enquirers > only. Contact swain4sale@... > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 04/11/2006 > 5:30 PM > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12043|12039|2006-11-07 18:49:51|brentswain38|Re: Engine length|Julian A Twin Disk 360 is 12 inches long. This is a common problem with Borg Warners. Go for the twin disk. I lost your email address so send it to me. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > OK, so I've found an engine/transmission combo. > > The engine is the model I was after (Nissan SD22), and it's already in > marine-trim (no need to come up with a bell housing to mate it to a > transmission etc). > > Only problem is that the combo is a little longer than I was thinking > (it's also a couple of inches wider, but I can work with that). > > The combo is a total of 49 inches from transmission coupling to > pulleys ... and that puts the front of the engine at least 10 inches > in front of the stringers (and into my pilothouse!). > > The transmission is a Borg-Warner Velvet Drive and is probably a large > part of the problem (at 17 inches long). > > So, is this an insurmountable problem? > > Can anyone tell me how long their engine/tranny is? (particularly if > you've got a Nissan SD22). > > How far forward of the companionway does the engine normally come? > > What transmissions are in use with SD22s elsewhere? > > Thanks, > Julian. > | 12044|12044|2006-11-07 19:17:04|bert andjan|Cutting a CAST IRON keel?|I've a friend who has a Grampian 26 with a cast iron keel. He's thinking of shortening it and adding a lead bulb on bottom to make up for what's been cut off... If cutting the lead keel is tough, I wonder if there's anyway for him to cut the cast iron? Bert in Saginaw, Mi ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/| 12045|3564|2006-11-07 20:15:02|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: best way to cut lead keel? advise please!|Just a note about some of my findings. The jack hammer worked me half to death because it didn't cut much of anything unless you held it an angle. I tried the torch and you had just as well melt the entire thing. A cutting torch won't cut lead it just melts it and finally will cut a valley thru the chunk. I didn't want to spend a month cutting up 7 tons of lead. I used an electric chain saw with a hand oiler and used just enough oil to keep the bar oiled. The lead didn't smoke. I didn't sharpen the chain even once during the cutting. I found that lead was much easier to cut than Ipe. I used a two filter type respirator and my sandblast hood, which has compressed air injected into the hood. It was a hot day and the air entering the hood kept me cool. Just my two cents worth. Try lots of different methods and stick with the one that works for you and be sure to wash your hands before eating a sandwich. Gerald| 12046|12046|2006-11-08 11:12:59|SHANE ROTHWELL|36' Finkeel Brentboat for sale.|if this is the one in the self storage yard in Parksville on industrial way, it's still there, all tarped up right out in front. I drooled as I drove by it yesterday thinking 'is that the one that was for sale?' Damn! & I have to build a house b4 a boat. 20:20 hindsight I guess, but at least I have a backhoe to cuddle up to at night now & keep me out of the pub. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12047|12019|2006-11-09 16:07:37|mickeyolaf|Re: Input on building a BS 36 or 40?|My modified (interior and house) BS36 has 200 gallons of fuel in the keel. Between 250 and 300 (exact measure not yet known) gallons of water in 5 tanks all under the sole, 3 of which are aluminum for house water and two x 50 custom fitted(100 gallons for drinking) are plastic. There is a 70 gallon plastic custom fitted holding tank. 11 gallons of hot water.(Force 10) Headroom is 6'5" full length. Bunks are all 7' or longer. There is a v-berth, pilotberth, quarter berth and a double if the dinnette is down. Have a look at the pictures of "Andes". I think the BS36 is very liveable for 2 persons for a long or short stay and 4 easily for a weekend. The interior is completely spray foamed to an ich and a half depth and with the Webasco Diesel furnace should be an excellent year round liveaboard. I will soon update the photos as the interior is almost complete and the travellers and genoa tracks are now on etc. The inside is now assembled, painted and clear coated and as soon as the weather improves the exterior will be painted. Sooner if I can find a heated barn or shed. - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > I am finally ready to order the plans so I can start building, but I have > not decided if I should build the 36 or the 40. The plan is for the boat to > be a live aboard for a couple. I am leaning to the 40 to get extra room and > put in more tankage, since some of the photo's I have seen of the 36's are > just covered with extra water/fuel tanks on deck. > > I have chartered a 33 foot and it was too small for extended cruising or > live aboard. Any costs I should be aware of beyond the extra materials to > build the 40 vs the 36? I have checked on the local oversize loads and > there is no difference due to the width differences. > > John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12048|12048|2006-11-12 16:45:22|edward_stoneuk|Dangerous duct tape|Today I repaired a tear in my overalls with duct tape. It worked fine. Unfortunately while grinding I set fire to it and feeling the heat looked down to see my overalls leg on fire. Trying to beat out the flames with my bare right hand I got molten duct tape stuck to my little finger. Ouch! It has taken a fair patch of skin off the back. Beware duct tape. Wear gloves. Regards, Ted| 12049|12049|2006-11-12 22:00:47|melanielauzon7777|Island breeze for sale .|Iam sailing her to New zealand.....from Fidji......needs a new sail....tons of gear on board ...is definetly for sale there.....I ha ve dropped the price down to 35000 Usd....first one down there gets her!!!!!Cedric....| 12050|12048|2006-11-13 09:27:38|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Dangerous duct tape|On Sun, Nov 12, 2006 at 09:34:22PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Today I repaired a tear in my overalls with duct tape. It worked > fine. Unfortunately while grinding I set fire to it and feeling the > heat looked down to see my overalls leg on fire. Trying to beat out > the flames with my bare right hand I got molten duct tape stuck to my > little finger. Ouch! It has taken a fair patch of skin off the back. > > Beware duct tape. > > Wear gloves. Yikes! It would make one hell of a story for the Duct Tape Guys (http://www.ducttapeguys.com/) - perhaps a little something to offset their whole "duct tape is God" attitude. Sorry to hear you got burned, Ted, and thanks for turning it around and making it into something useful - a reminder for us all (you're never too experienced to need one.) It's much like the reason for not welding while wearing artificial fabric, or plastic tennis shoes: if a drop of hot metal ever burns through cotton, you can flick it off, but if it melts through plastic, it's going to _stay_ stuck to you until it's cooked you to "well done". Speaking of cautionary tales... this week, we're rebuilding a rusted-out hatch on "Ulysses"; there's been a lot of slicing and dicing with a grinder as well as a lot of cursing about "idiot builders who cover up steel with wood" - the entire cockpit is one big rust trap due to the seats, coamings, and hatches being wood over steel, with little-to-no air space between them. We started by completely cutting out all the rusty and rotten bits, and at this point, we're about 15 minutes away from being ready to weld (there are two more pieces of wooden bulkhead to be trimmed.) Since this is the aft cabin hatch, and the nights are getting rather chilly, we're _more_ than ready for this project to be done. :) Moral of the story: don't just stick wood to metal. The areas where the two have air circulation between them are perfectly fine after 20+ years; wherever the two were shoved together for more than, say, a couple of inches overlap, the metal has turned into pastry and the wood has rotted away into powder. Whether there was any paint between the two or not does not seem to make any difference. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12052|12048|2006-11-13 14:07:31|Bill Jaine|Re: Dangerous duct tape|Or sandals, the horrible smell of flesh burning as it works it way down through your toes is only exceeded by the pain. Bill.....speaking from experience > > It's much like the reason for not welding while wearing artificial > fabric, or plastic tennis shoes: > | 12053|12048|2006-11-13 14:37:02|Wesley Cox|Re: Dangerous duct tape|Sandals??? I thought I was crazy for welding in shorts with closed shoes. I once had jeans (denim) catch fire because I was leaning against the welding table to reach the weld in question and a molten drop apparently ran across the table and rested against my pants. By the time I knew it, there were substantial flames working their way up my shirt. Be careful everyone. Bill Jaine wrote: > Or sandals, the horrible smell of flesh burning as it works it way down > through your toes is only exceeded by the pain. > > Bill.....speaking from experience > > > > It's much like the reason for not welding while wearing artificial > > fabric, or plastic tennis shoes: > > > > | 12054|12048|2006-11-13 18:15:04|ryan tinsley|Re: Dangerous duct tape|Pipe-liners in their heavily starched and pressed shirts and pants aren't just trying to impress the Lady's. Starch is fire proofing causing molten metal to bead up and bounce off. Wesley Cox wrote: Sandals??? I thought I was crazy for welding in shorts with closed shoes. I once had jeans (denim) catch fire because I was leaning against the welding table to reach the weld in question and a molten drop apparently ran across the table and rested against my pants. By the time I knew it, there were substantial flames working their way up my shirt. Be careful everyone. Bill Jaine wrote: > Or sandals, the horrible smell of flesh burning as it works it way down > through your toes is only exceeded by the pain. > > Bill.....speaking from experience > > > > It's much like the reason for not welding while wearing artificial > > fabric, or plastic tennis shoes: > > > > --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12055|12055|2006-11-14 08:24:25|t_framer|Contacting Brent|Hello All, I have been trying to contact Brent at brentswain38@... but am not getting a response. I want to explore the possibility of coming to Vancouver Island to build a boat. It seems that materials availability is better there and the possibility of hiring Brent much as Alex did is very interesting. Karl Manzer| 12057|12048|2006-11-15 20:33:23|Carl Volkwein|Re: Dangerous duct tape|Interesting about the starch, I'll have to try that. Years ago, when I was working in a fab shop, I had a piece of molten slag fall down into my ear while I was holding my head sideways to get a better look at what I was welding, it made this awfull bubling sound, and I turned my head to the other side, and it fell rite out. I could hear much better for a long while, this happened more than onece, but after the first time, I knew what the sound was, so I turned my head more quickly, but I could always hear better afterwards. I don't recomend this as a way of removeing ear wax, but it works. carlvolkwein@... ryan tinsley wrote: Pipe-liners in their heavily starched and pressed shirts and pants aren't just trying to impress the Lady's. Starch is fire proofing causing molten metal to bead up and bounce off. Wesley Cox wrote: Sandals??? I thought I was crazy for welding in shorts with closed shoes. I once had jeans (denim) catch fire because I was leaning against the welding table to reach the weld in question and a molten drop apparently ran across the table and rested against my pants. By the time I knew it, there were substantial flames working their way up my shirt. Be careful everyone. Bill Jaine wrote: > Or sandals, the horrible smell of flesh burning as it works it way down > through your toes is only exceeded by the pain. > > Bill.....speaking from experience > > > > It's much like the reason for not welding while wearing artificial > > fabric, or plastic tennis shoes: > > > > --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12058|12048|2006-11-15 21:45:41|Aaron Williams|Re: Dangerous duct tape|Carl That is why a welder has a special hat. Carl Volkwein wrote: Interesting about the starch, I'll have to try that. Years ago, when I was working in a fab shop, I had a piece of molten slag fall down into my ear while I was holding my head sideways to get a better look at what I was welding, it made this awfull bubling sound, and I turned my head to the other side, and it fell rite out. I could hear much better for a long while, this happened more than onece, but after the first time, I knew what the sound was, so I turned my head more quickly, but I could always hear better afterwards. I don't recomend this as a way of removeing ear wax, but it works. carlvolkwein@... ryan tinsley wrote: Pipe-liners in their heavily starched and pressed shirts and pants aren't just trying to impress the Lady's. Starch is fire proofing causing molten metal to bead up and bounce off. Wesley Cox wrote: Sandals??? I thought I was crazy for welding in shorts with closed shoes. I once had jeans (denim) catch fire because I was leaning against the welding table to reach the weld in question and a molten drop apparently ran across the table and rested against my pants. By the time I knew it, there were substantial flames working their way up my shirt. Be careful everyone. Bill Jaine wrote: > Or sandals, the horrible smell of flesh burning as it works it way down > through your toes is only exceeded by the pain. > > Bill.....speaking from experience > > > > It's much like the reason for not welding while wearing artificial > > fabric, or plastic tennis shoes: > > > > --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sponsored Link $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Sponsored Link $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/month - Think You Pay Too Much For Your Mortgage? Find Out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12060|12060|2006-11-16 04:02:33|sae140|Fire-proof overalls|I bought some not-too-expensive overalls a while back, treated with some stuff called PROBAN. I was a little sceptical at first of how good this stuff was, so I tested 'em with a shower of sparks from a 9" grinder. (with a bucket of water at the ready) Heat under the material very quickly became unbearable, but no signs of burning or deterioration on the surface. Guys in the race-car business claim that PROBAN-treated coveralls are good for around 75 washes, after which you're left with cotton. Their preference is for Indura/Nomex suits, which are good for walking into fires with. But for welding and general fabrication, PROBAN appears good enough. Glad to hear you're ok Ted. Colin| 12061|12061|2006-11-17 16:00:55|boatsottered|No boating next year|Go here for the whole story: http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/64 Now: US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance'' to Leave USA International Politics October 26, 2006 Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14, 2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the United States. It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport - a "travel document" that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States. Go here for the whole story: http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20060814154923ibinews.html n a rather bizarre ruling that has marine industry officials worried, Judge Robert G. James of the United States District Court, Western Division of Louisiana, has said that it is criminal trespass for the American boating public to boat, fish, or hunt on the Mississippi River and other navigable waters in the US. In the case of Normal Parm v. Sheriff Mark Shumate, James ruled that federal law grants exclusive and private control over the waters of the river, outside the main shipping channel, to riparian landowners. The shallows of the navigable waters are no longer open to the public. That, in effect, makes boating illegal across most of the country. "Even though this action seems like a horrible pre-April fools joke, it is very serious," said Phil Keeter, MRAA president, in a statement. "Because essentially all the waters and waterways of our country are considered navigable in the US law, this ruling declares recreational boating, water skiing, fishing, waterfowl hunting, and fishing tournaments to be illegal and the public subject to jail sentences for recreating with their families." Last month, James rejected the findings of the Magistrate judge who found earlier that the American public had the right under federal law and Louisiana law to navigate, boat, fish, and hunt on the waters of the Mississippi river up to the normal high water line of the river. Judge James Kirk relied on the long established federal principles of navigation that recognized the public navigational rights "…entitles the public to the reasonable use of navigable waters for all legitimate purposes of travel or transportation, for boating, sailing for pleasure, as well as for carrying persons or property for hire, and in any kind of watercraft the use of which is consistent with others also enjoying the right possessed in common."| 12062|12061|2006-11-17 18:45:28|claudepoitras|Boating in BC during the storm.|To all those on the water, at this time. How are you dealing with this latest terible storm. It must not be very plesant to be a live-abord at this time. All is calm in Alberta. Claude| 12063|12061|2006-11-17 19:25:16|Derrick|Re: No boating next year|"... the Coast Guard, state boating law administrators, and NMMA to fight this onerous ruling,” said Glen Mazzella, MRAA chairman, in the statement. " ... I suspect that if there is an appeal (and there should be one) it will not be upheld. derrick -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/537 - Release Date: 11/17/2006 5:56 PM| 12064|12061|2006-11-17 20:47:55|Jim Phillips|Re: No boating next year|Well, this is normal for most of the rest of the world. Normally if you arrive in a new country, Q flag flying from your spreaders, without clearance from the country of departure, the authorities will question why - except if you say you left the USA. Jim. ----- Original Message ---- From: boatsottered To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 17 November, 2006 5:55:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] No boating next year Go here for the whole story: http://www.wakeupfr omyourslumber. com/node/ 64 Now: US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance' ' to Leave USA International Politics October 26, 2006 Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14, 2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States. The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the United States. It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport - a "travel document" that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States. Go here for the whole story: http://www.ibinews com/ibinews/ newsdesk/ 20060814154923ib inews.html n a rather bizarre ruling that has marine industry officials worried, Judge Robert G. James of the United States District Court, Western Division of Louisiana, has said that it is criminal trespass for the American boating public to boat, fish, or hunt on the Mississippi River and other navigable waters in the US. In the case of Normal Parm v. Sheriff Mark Shumate, James ruled that federal law grants exclusive and private control over the waters of the river, outside the main shipping channel, to riparian landowners. The shallows of the navigable waters are no longer open to the public. That, in effect, makes boating illegal across most of the country. "Even though this action seems like a horrible pre-April fools joke, it is very serious," said Phil Keeter, MRAA president, in a statement. "Because essentially all the waters and waterways of our country are considered navigable in the US law, this ruling declares recreational boating, water skiing, fishing, waterfowl hunting, and fishing tournaments to be illegal and the public subject to jail sentences for recreating with their families." Last month, James rejected the findings of the Magistrate judge who found earlier that the American public had the right under federal law and Louisiana law to navigate, boat, fish, and hunt on the waters of the Mississippi river up to the normal high water line of the river. Judge James Kirk relied on the long established federal principles of navigation that recognized the public navigational rights "�entitles the public to the reasonable use of navigable waters for all legitimate purposes of travel or transportation, for boating, sailing for pleasure, as well as for carrying persons or property for hire, and in any kind of watercraft the use of which is consistent with others also enjoying the right possessed in common." Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12065|12061|2006-11-18 17:41:44|brentswain38|Re: No boating next year|In Canada , section 6 of the charter of rights in the constitution gives everyone the right to enter and leave Canada freely. Changing it would involve changing the constitution which would require the agreenment of at least 7 of the ten provinces containing at least 50% of the population. Interfering with this right could result in a 10,000 dollar fine and ten years in prison for anyone reponsible. Going to court , bringing the media along and filing a private criminal information against the reponsible party is a good start.Such an action against a government cabinet minister , just before an election, may make it an election issue. The US Supreme court basically made the same rulling in the late 1800's but it's been ignored by the US government ever since (the people who tell you to obey the law) This is what make "Continentalism" so scary for Canadians. We should never lie down and passively accept this type of imprisonment. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Well, this is normal for most of the rest of the world. Normally if you arrive in a new country, Q flag flying from your spreaders, without clearance from the country of departure, the authorities will question why - except if you say you left the USA. > > Jim. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: boatsottered > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, 17 November, 2006 5:55:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] No boating next year > > Go here for the whole story: > > http://www.wakeupfr omyourslumber. com/node/ 64 > > Now: US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance' ' to Leave USA > International Politics October 26, 2006 Forget no-fly lists. > > If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14, 2007, we'll all be on > no-fly lists, unless the government gives us permission to leave-or > re-enter-the United States. > > The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all > airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain > clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the > United States. > > It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport - a "travel document" > that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually > unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want. > > When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says > "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you > won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States. > > Go here for the whole story: > > http://www.ibinews com/ibinews/ newsdesk/ 20060814154923ib inews.html > > n a rather bizarre ruling that has marine industry officials worried, > Judge Robert G. James of the United States District Court, Western > Division of Louisiana, has said that it is criminal trespass for the > American boating public to boat, fish, or hunt on the Mississippi > River and other navigable waters in the US. > > In the case of Normal Parm v. Sheriff Mark Shumate, James ruled that > federal law grants exclusive and private control over the waters of > the river, outside the main shipping channel, to riparian landowners. > The shallows of the navigable waters are no longer open to the public. > That, in effect, makes boating illegal across most of the country. > > "Even though this action seems like a horrible pre-April fools joke, > it is very serious," said Phil Keeter, MRAA president, in a statement. > "Because essentially all the waters and waterways of our country are > considered navigable in the US law, this ruling declares recreational > boating, water skiing, fishing, waterfowl hunting, and fishing > tournaments to be illegal and the public subject to jail sentences for > recreating with their families." > > Last month, James rejected the findings of the Magistrate judge who > found earlier that the American public had the right under federal law > and Louisiana law to navigate, boat, fish, and hunt on the waters of > the Mississippi river up to the normal high water line of the river. > Judge James Kirk relied on the long established federal principles of > navigation that recognized the public navigational rights "…entitles > the public to the reasonable use of navigable waters for all > legitimate purposes of travel or transportation, for boating, sailing > for pleasure, as well as for carrying persons or property for hire, > and in any kind of watercraft the use of which is consistent with > others also enjoying the right possessed in common." > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12067|12067|2006-11-22 01:04:17|Joe & Mary Schlichte|Re: About the Group party this weekend|unsubscribe,thanks Mandy Beely wrote: Is the love beyond age possible for you? I am young. But I dont want my boyfriend tooo older then me. Or i will feel very strange. How do you think about it? Anyway, I find the following info from my groups. i think it's a good place.,many young men and old men too. LOL~~~~~You could have a try. The only place for Older Women/Younger Men, Age Gap Singles, Older Men/Younger Women ...and more! http://agelesskiss.bravehost.com/agegap.html --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12068|12068|2006-11-22 06:10:32|ikubanh|how long|how big can you build in origami does any one know I am looking at roberts new york 65 but would like to do something with this method some where between 45 and 65 feet , input would be good thanks| 12069|12067|2006-11-22 10:21:42|woodcraftssuch|Re: About the Group party this weekend|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Joe & Mary Schlichte wrote: > > unsubscribe,thanks It's a do it yourself operation. Go to the top of the page and click on ' Edit Membership'. Go to the bottom right hand corner of the resulting page and click 'Leave Group'. How did your houseboat restoration turn out? Sam| 12070|12070|2006-11-22 12:16:34|mickeyolaf|Attachments|I have a question regarding attaching fittings which will be under high load. I know that one of the benefits of a metal boat is u can simply weld attachment plates down. I plan to put footblocks in place to handle sheets and lines led aft back to winches. Would a welded down half inch plate with the holes tapped into it for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru bolting the block with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will be in shear ie a 180 return from the footblock to a winch. Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak that can't happen when welded. But welded down u also have a plate on top of the deck whose strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch aluminum plate thick enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be thicker? The foot blocks have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at 4400 lb pull. I have a half inch back up plate welded under the 3/16th thick deck to support the winches and the blocks. I plann to tap thru and also bolt the winches down with fender washers but don't want to drill thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize the potential for leaks. So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates with the pull in shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong as thru bolted?| 12071|12068|2006-11-22 17:56:13|brentswain38|Re: how long|Roy Chambers once built a 65 footer using origami methods in Maple Bay BC many years ago. A 45 foot Shannon design was built just south of the ferry terminal in Nanaimo recently. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ikubanh" wrote: > > how big can you build in origami does any one know I am looking at > roberts new york 65 but would like to do something with this method > some where between 45 and 65 feet , input would be good thanks > | 12072|12070|2006-11-22 17:56:37|brentswain38|Re: Attachments|Definitely go for the welded down tangs. Make the base (length of weld ) as long as possible , like the chainplates are drawn. As long as the base has far more metal than the amount above the hole, it won't be a weak point. Thru bolts in aluminium will always eventually have corrosion problems and thus leaks around them eventually. Half inch plate is plenty. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings which will be under > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a metal boat is u can > simply weld attachment plates down. > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle sheets and lines led aft > back to winches. > Would a welded down half inch plate with the holes tapped into it > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru bolting the block > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will be in shear ie a > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak that can't happen when > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on top of the deck whose > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch aluminum plate thick > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be thicker? The foot blocks > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at 4400 lb pull. > I have a half inch back up plate welded under the 3/16th thick deck > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann to tap thru and also > bolt the winches down with fender washers but don't want to drill > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize the potential for > leaks. > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates with the pull in > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong as thru bolted? > | 12074|12070|2006-11-22 21:30:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Attachments|A basic rule of thumb is that the tapped depth should be the diameter of the bolt times the strength ratio between the materials. So a stainless bolt at 70,000 psi in aluminum at say 35,000 psi (don't remember, just giving an example) requires a thread engagement of 5/8" for 5/16" bolts to develop the full holding power of the bolt. If you don't have this depth you risk stripping out the bolt threads when properly torquing the bolts. A sure sign the thread depth isn't deep enough is that the bolts keep loosening. This happens because the base metal yields under stress. Note that you would need to bottom tap the hole after using a starter tap to get 5/8" depth in say 3/4" material. Hope this helps, Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Attachments I have a question regarding attaching fittings which will be under high load. I know that one of the benefits of a metal boat is u can simply weld attachment plates down. I plan to put footblocks in place to handle sheets and lines led aft back to winches. Would a welded down half inch plate with the holes tapped into it for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru bolting the block with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will be in shear ie a 180 return from the footblock to a winch. Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak that can't happen when welded. But welded down u also have a plate on top of the deck whose strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch aluminum plate thick enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be thicker? The foot blocks have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at 4400 lb pull. I have a half inch back up plate welded under the 3/16th thick deck to support the winches and the blocks. I plann to tap thru and also bolt the winches down with fender washers but don't want to drill thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize the potential for leaks. So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates with the pull in shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong as thru bolted? | 12076|12070|2006-11-23 14:36:10|David A. Frantz|Re: Attachments|Hi Mickey; Fro my experience in industrial work it is never a good idea to run tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be under stress. Thru bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that this would apply to boats also. As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from experience. Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I see it is that the plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is properly spread out. However the very act of welding to the deck will introduce stress in the deck. Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to be the worst. Dave mickeyolaf wrote: > I have a question regarding attaching fittings which will be under > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a metal boat is u can > simply weld attachment plates down. > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle sheets and lines led aft > back to winches. > Would a welded down half inch plate with the holes tapped into it > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru bolting the block > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will be in shear ie a > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak that can't happen when > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on top of the deck whose > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch aluminum plate thick > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be thicker? The foot blocks > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at 4400 lb pull. > I have a half inch back up plate welded under the 3/16th thick deck > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann to tap thru and also > bolt the winches down with fender washers but don't want to drill > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize the potential for > leaks. > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates with the pull in > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong as thru bolted? > > | 12077|12070|2006-11-23 16:35:38|brentswain38|Re: Attachments|On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded down. There has never been invented a better way of attaching things than welding. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Hi Mickey; > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never a good idea to run > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be under stress. Thru > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that this would apply to > boats also. > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from experience. > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I see it is that the > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is properly spread > out. However the very act of welding to the deck will introduce > stress in the deck. > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to be the worst. > > Dave > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings which will be under > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a metal boat is u can > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle sheets and lines led aft > > back to winches. > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the holes tapped into it > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru bolting the block > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will be in shear ie a > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak that can't happen when > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on top of the deck whose > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch aluminum plate thick > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be thicker? The foot blocks > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at 4400 lb pull. > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under the 3/16th thick deck > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann to tap thru and also > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but don't want to drill > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize the potential for > > leaks. > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates with the pull in > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong as thru bolted? > > > > > | 12078|12070|2006-11-24 00:08:18|aaron riis|melting lead|hi, all, i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. it was a cold day around freezing today, also when lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much hotter than it's melting temperature so that it disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Aaron Riis --- brentswain38 wrote: > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > down. There has > never been invented a better way of attaching things > than welding. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. > Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > a good idea to run > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > under stress. > Thru > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > this would apply to > > boats also. > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > experience. > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > see it is that the > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > properly spread > > out. However the very act of welding to the > deck will introduce > > stress in the deck. > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > be the worst. > > > > Dave > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > which will be under > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > metal boat is u can > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > sheets and lines led aft > > > back to winches. > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > holes tapped into it > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > bolting the block > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > be in shear ie a > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > that can't happen when > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > top of the deck whose > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > aluminum plate thick > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > thicker? The foot blocks > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > 4400 lb pull. > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > the 3/16th thick deck > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > to tap thru and also > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > don't want to drill > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > the potential for > > > leaks. > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > with the pull in > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com| 12079|12070|2006-11-24 01:10:34|Paul|Re: melting lead|I have found that on a very cold day such as you describe that you need a lot of heat to get the lead to flow. Try pre-heating the cavity you are pouring it into as well. You may even find that melting in smaller batches is easier to manage than trying a massive pour of 1500 lbs. Paul H. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > hi, all, > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > thanks, > > Aaron Riis > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > down. There has > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > than welding. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. > > Frantz" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > a good idea to run > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > under stress. > > Thru > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > this would apply to > > > boats also. > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > experience. > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > see it is that the > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > properly spread > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > deck will introduce > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > be the worst. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > which will be under > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > metal boat is u can > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > back to winches. > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > holes tapped into it > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > bolting the block > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > be in shear ie a > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > that can't happen when > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > top of the deck whose > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > aluminum plate thick > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > to tap thru and also > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > don't want to drill > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > the potential for > > > > leaks. > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > with the pull in > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > | 12080|12070|2006-11-24 01:11:15|srankin|Re: melting lead|Aaron One of your problems is that tire weights are not lead but some alloy and melt at a higher temperature than lead. I tried for a while to make some ingots from the tire weights, then switched to lead and there was an enormous difference in the heat required to melt. Steve On Thu, 2006-23-11 at 21:01 -0800, aaron riis wrote: > hi, all, > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > thanks, > > Aaron Riis > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > down. There has > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > than welding. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. > > Frantz" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > a good idea to run > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > under stress. > > Thru > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > this would apply to > > > boats also. > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > experience. > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > see it is that the > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > properly spread > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > deck will introduce > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > be the worst. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > which will be under > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > metal boat is u can > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > back to winches. > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > holes tapped into it > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > bolting the block > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > be in shear ie a > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > that can't happen when > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > top of the deck whose > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > aluminum plate thick > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > to tap thru and also > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > don't want to drill > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > the potential for > > > > leaks. > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > with the pull in > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > | 12081|12070|2006-11-24 01:30:52|Alex Christie|Re: melting lead|Steve's right, I think tire weights have antimony in them to make them hard. Alex| 12082|12070|2006-11-24 02:23:02|gschnell|Re: melting lead|Paul wrote: > > > I have found that on a very cold day such as you describe that you > need a lot of heat to get the lead to flow. Try pre-heating the > cavity you are pouring it into as well. You may even find that > melting in smaller batches is easier to manage than trying a massive > pour of 1500 lbs. > > Paul H. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , aaron riis > wrote: > > > > hi, all, > > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > > > Aaron Riis > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > > down. There has > > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > > than welding. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. > > > Frantz" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > > a good idea to run > > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > > under stress. > > > Thru > > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > > this would apply to > > > > boats also. > > > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > > experience. > > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > > see it is that the > > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > > properly spread > > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > > deck will introduce > > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > > be the worst. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > > which will be under > > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > > metal boat is u can > > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > > back to winches. > > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > > holes tapped into it > > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > > bolting the block > > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > > be in shear ie a > > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > > that can't happen when > > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > > top of the deck whose > > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > > aluminum plate thick > > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > > to tap thru and also > > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > > don't want to drill > > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > > the potential for > > > > > leaks. > > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > > with the pull in > > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > I poured 7000 lbs. in 14 hrs.. It required 2 tiger torches, a beer keg witht the top cut off and a large gate valve. I was never able to achieve a continuous pour. As a result, the lead in the keel solidified between each dump of molten lead. The molten flowed to the low points and froze. It was hard to tell if the successive layers bonded or simply conformed to the last pour. What ever happened, the final product looked like a continuous pour, required no leveling or finishing and took 2 days to fully cool. When it did cool, I poured 2 gallons of epoxy paint over the top. It seeped down the sides between the lead and the keel wall (the lead shrinks considerably as it cools). When the epoxy was cured, I welded a steel top on the ballast chamber and sealed the lead forever ..... I hope. It's hot and heavy work. Note: use plenty of ventilation and stay upwind...no exceptions! Good luck Gord| 12083|12070|2006-11-24 03:10:23|T & D Cain|Re: melting lead|The whole mass needs to be at 373 deg C or more before you start when in a temperate zone. The climate you seem to be indicating should be OK for 385 down to 375 minimum, if the runout or piping is preheated also. No substitute for a reliable temperature measurement (one that is within 5 deg C.). It is also very handy to have a means of quickly shutting off the flow if needed (perhaps due to slow process and unplanned cooling etc.). Pre-cooling with sprays on the external skin is also advisable to reduce total shrinkage of the poured mass. Terry -----Original Message----- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of aaron riis Sent: Friday, 24 November 2006 2:32 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] melting lead hi, all, i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. it was a cold day around freezing today, also when lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much hotter than it's melting temperature so that it disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Aaron Riis --- brentswain38 < brentswain38@... > wrote: > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > down. There has > never been invented a better way of attaching things > than welding. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "David A. > Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > a good idea to run > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > under stress. > Thru > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > this would apply to > > boats also. > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > experience. > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > see it is that the > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > properly spread > > out. However the very act of welding to the > deck will introduce > > stress in the deck. > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > be the worst. > > > > Dave > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > which will be under > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > metal boat is u can > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > sheets and lines led aft > > > back to winches. > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > holes tapped into it > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > bolting the block > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > be in shear ie a > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > that can't happen when > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > top of the deck whose > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > aluminum plate thick > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > thicker? The foot blocks > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > 4400 lb pull. > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > the 3/16th thick deck > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > to tap thru and also > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > don't want to drill > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > the potential for > > > leaks. > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > with the pull in > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12084|12070|2006-11-24 15:48:39|opuspaul|Re: melting lead|When I built my BS 36 I did it in two goes and had no problem using lead tire weights. The first time I made ingots using a fire under a split 45 gallon drum. The fire didn't seem to be hot enough until I turned the exhaust of my shop vacuum onto it which turned it into a forge. It was amazing the difference in heat the forced air made. The second time I used a tub (2 ft x 1.5 ft x 1 ft high) outside the keel with a pipe and gate valve running into the keel. I rented three tiger tiger torches. Two for the tub and I needed one to keep it liquid in the pipe. I believe they were 350,000 btu. I am not sure on that but I went through about 6 20 pound propane bottles. The propane was being used so fast the valves were freezing up. It worked fine although it was fall and not the winter time so probably 10-15 degrees out. As the lead melted (probably 500 -1000 pounds at a time) I scimmed off the wheel clips until it was clean enough to let go through the pipe. The fire was definitely hotter and worked better than the tiger torches but I needed the tub to be high so it would run into the keel properly. All in all, a fun day. Good luck, Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > > Paul wrote: > > > > > > I have found that on a very cold day such as you describe that you > > need a lot of heat to get the lead to flow. Try pre-heating the > > cavity you are pouring it into as well. You may even find that > > melting in smaller batches is easier to manage than trying a massive > > pour of 1500 lbs. > > > > Paul H. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , aaron riis > > wrote: > > > > > > hi, all, > > > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > > > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > > > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > > > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > > > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > > > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > > > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > > > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > > > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > > > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > > > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > > > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > > > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > Aaron Riis > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > > > down. There has > > > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > > > than welding. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "David A. > > > > Frantz" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > > > a good idea to run > > > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > > > under stress. > > > > Thru > > > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > > > this would apply to > > > > > boats also. > > > > > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > > > experience. > > > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > > > see it is that the > > > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > > > properly spread > > > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > > > deck will introduce > > > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > > > be the worst. > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > > > which will be under > > > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > > > metal boat is u can > > > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > > > back to winches. > > > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > > > holes tapped into it > > > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > > > bolting the block > > > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > > > be in shear ie a > > > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > > > that can't happen when > > > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > > > top of the deck whose > > > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > > > aluminum plate thick > > > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > > > to tap thru and also > > > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > > > don't want to drill > > > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > > > the potential for > > > > > > leaks. > > > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > > > with the pull in > > > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > _______________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > I poured 7000 lbs. in 14 hrs.. It required 2 tiger torches, a beer keg > witht the top cut off and a large gate valve. I was never able to > achieve a continuous pour. As a result, the lead in the keel solidified > between each dump of molten lead. The molten flowed to the low points > and froze. It was hard to tell if the successive layers bonded or simply > conformed to the last pour. What ever happened, the final product looked > like a continuous pour, required no leveling or finishing and took 2 > days to fully cool. When it did cool, I poured 2 gallons of epoxy paint > over the top. It seeped down the sides between the lead and the keel > wall (the lead shrinks considerably as it cools). When the epoxy was > cured, I welded a steel top on the ballast chamber and sealed the lead > forever ..... I hope. It's hot and heavy work. Note: use plenty of > ventilation and stay upwind...no exceptions! > Good luck > Gord > | 12085|12055|2006-11-24 17:41:08|brentswain38|Re: Contacting Brent|I can be reached at brentswain38@... or at brentswain38@... Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "t_framer" wrote: > > Hello All, > I have been trying to contact Brent at brentswain38@... but > am not getting a response. I want to explore the possibility of coming > to Vancouver Island to build a boat. It seems that materials > availability is better there and the possibility of hiring Brent much > as Alex did is very interesting. Karl Manzer > | 12086|12061|2006-11-24 17:51:53|brentswain38|Re: Boating in BC during the storm.|I was tied to a mooring in Scotty bay srong enough to hold a BC ferry, There are a lot of excellent hurricane holes in BC, sheltered enough to make one totally unaware of how hard it is blowing outside. I thought about what a blessing they would be in hurricane zones, then thought" If they were in the tropics they would be so full of coral that you couldn't row a dinghy thru." Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "claudepoitras" wrote: > > To all those on the water, at this time. > How are you dealing with this latest terible storm. > It must not be very plesant to be a live-abord at this time. > > All is calm in Alberta. > Claude > | 12087|12070|2006-11-25 07:39:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: melting lead|Hi Aaron, To melt our supply of scrap mostly sheet lead we used a coal and wood fire in a fireplace made from angle with a mesh floor and sides made from the insulation board from inside fire doors. The mesh floor allowed air in and the sides made enough of a chimney effect that it drew well without a fan. We used a hot air gun underneath to get the fire away in the first place. We melted 28lb at a time as we were using a ladle with handles to melt the lead in and to carry it to the keels and pour it. We made the ladle from a length of steel pipe. There are photos of the lead melting and pouring process in Ted&Fiona'sBoatBits in the photo section of origamiboats2. 28lb is as much as we wanted to carry at a time. We put the lead in the keels before dragging them under the boat and then hoisting them into position. From memory it took 3 days to pour the two keels. we used a wooden shute to stop the lead splashing up the sides of the keel where the diesel tank would be. It charred but did not catch fire; it probably would if a larger load was poured at the same time. Beware of using a tiger torch to melt the lead in situ; it may expand the steel sides, then when the steel cools it may not be able to contract to its previous position as the lead is there. Regards, Ted| 12088|12070|2006-11-25 12:24:19|aaron riis|bronze transducer?|hi all, Ihave a brass or bronze transducer from an old wooden boat that I salvaged. would it be suitable for a steel boat, or a corrosion nightmare. i've put off the keel pouring for a few days, the temperature has dropped and we are expecting 100 km/hr winds, although maybe that could help heat the fire. Aaron Riis --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > Hi Aaron, > > To melt our supply of scrap mostly sheet lead we > used a coal and wood > fire in a fireplace made from angle with a mesh > floor and sides made > from the insulation board from inside fire doors. > The mesh floor > allowed air in and the sides made enough of a > chimney effect that it > drew well without a fan. We used a hot air gun > underneath to get the > fire away in the first place. We melted 28lb at a > time as we were > using a ladle with handles to melt the lead in and > to carry it to the > keels and pour it. We made the ladle from a length > of steel pipe. > > There are photos of the lead melting and pouring > process in > Ted&Fiona'sBoatBits in the photo section of > origamiboats2. > > 28lb is as much as we wanted to carry at a time. > We put the lead in > the keels before dragging them under the boat and > then hoisting them > into position. From memory it took 3 days to pour > the two keels. we > used a wooden shute to stop the lead splashing up > the sides of the > keel where the diesel tank would be. It charred but > did not catch > fire; it probably would if a larger load was poured > at the same time. > Beware of using a tiger torch to melt the lead in > situ; it may expand > the steel sides, then when the steel cools it may > not be able to > contract to its previous position as the lead is > there. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index| 12089|12070|2006-11-25 15:59:08|David A. Frantz|Re: melting lead|Another thing to point out is the need for insulation. The upside down bottle isn't a bad idea in and of itself, for lead it will be an acceptable crucible. The problem is that you can't have your heat radiating away from the crucible. Since these sorts of melts are really very temporary forays into the world of metal casting you need a temporary form of insulation. There are fiber blankets that may very well do the job. To that end I'd suggest popping into one of the hobby casting sites for suggestions. People there are often working with zinc, aluminum or castiron all of which have a higher melting temp than lead. In any event it sounds like you need a flexible insulation blanket held in place with a 55 gal drum. Check with MeMaster - Carr for such blankets. The big question in my mind is condition of the metal you are casting into. One is the wonder if flux would help. The other is the cold metal temperature. Too cold and you will have problems with the flow of lead into the steel, if this is an aluminum keel even worst freezing issues. So Preheating there is advisable as has already been suggested. Thanks Dave Paul wrote: > > I have found that on a very cold day such as you describe that you > need a lot of heat to get the lead to flow. Try pre-heating the > cavity you are pouring it into as well. You may even find that > melting in smaller batches is easier to manage than trying a massive > pour of 1500 lbs. > > Paul H. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , aaron riis > wrote: > > > > hi, all, > > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > > > Aaron Riis > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > > down. There has > > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > > than welding. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. > > > Frantz" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > > a good idea to run > > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > > under stress. > > > Thru > > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > > this would apply to > > > > boats also. > > > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > > experience. > > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > > see it is that the > > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > > properly spread > > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > > deck will introduce > > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > > be the worst. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > > which will be under > > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > > metal boat is u can > > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > > back to winches. > > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > > holes tapped into it > > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > > bolting the block > > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > > be in shear ie a > > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > > that can't happen when > > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > > top of the deck whose > > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > > aluminum plate thick > > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > > to tap thru and also > > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > > don't want to drill > > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > > the potential for > > > > > leaks. > > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > > with the pull in > > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > | 12090|12060|2006-11-25 18:37:07|brentswain38|Re: Fire-proof overalls|Can you buy proban in a spray can or other form and use it on any coveralls you may have? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > I bought some not-too-expensive overalls a while back, treated with > some stuff called PROBAN. I was a little sceptical at first of how > good this stuff was, so I tested 'em with a shower of sparks from a > 9" grinder. (with a bucket of water at the ready) Heat under the > material very quickly became unbearable, but no signs of burning or > deterioration on the surface. > > Guys in the race-car business claim that PROBAN-treated coveralls are > good for around 75 washes, after which you're left with cotton. Their > preference is for Indura/Nomex suits, which are good for walking into > fires with. > But for welding and general fabrication, PROBAN appears good enough. > > Glad to hear you're ok Ted. > > Colin > | 12091|12070|2006-11-25 18:41:12|brentswain38|Re: bronze transducer?|I've had a bronze transducer in my hull,well insulated with rubber and goop from any electrical connection witht he hull, for 22 years . No problem. Make sure that you have a depthsounder which is compatible with it before you go to the trouble of installing it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, aaron riis wrote: > > hi all, > > > Ihave a brass or bronze transducer from an old wooden > boat that I salvaged. would it be suitable for a > steel boat, or a corrosion nightmare. > i've put off the keel pouring for a few days, the > temperature has dropped and we are expecting 100 km/hr > winds, although maybe that could help heat the fire. > > Aaron Riis > --- edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > Hi Aaron, > > > > To melt our supply of scrap mostly sheet lead we > > used a coal and wood > > fire in a fireplace made from angle with a mesh > > floor and sides made > > from the insulation board from inside fire doors. > > The mesh floor > > allowed air in and the sides made enough of a > > chimney effect that it > > drew well without a fan. We used a hot air gun > > underneath to get the > > fire away in the first place. We melted 28lb at a > > time as we were > > using a ladle with handles to melt the lead in and > > to carry it to the > > keels and pour it. We made the ladle from a length > > of steel pipe. > > > > There are photos of the lead melting and pouring > > process in > > Ted&Fiona'sBoatBits in the photo section of > > origamiboats2. > > > > 28lb is as much as we wanted to carry at a time. > > We put the lead in > > the keels before dragging them under the boat and > > then hoisting them > > into position. From memory it took 3 days to pour > > the two keels. we > > used a wooden shute to stop the lead splashing up > > the sides of the > > keel where the diesel tank would be. It charred but > > did not catch > > fire; it probably would if a larger load was poured > > at the same time. > > Beware of using a tiger torch to melt the lead in > > situ; it may expand > > the steel sides, then when the steel cools it may > > not be able to > > contract to its previous position as the lead is > > there. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > | 12092|12070|2006-11-25 18:45:16|brentswain38|Re: melting lead|Suround the crucible with enough heat and it won't be a problem. Blankets are probably insulated with fibreglass which means the one can simply use fibreglass house insulation with the same effect, and far cheaper.The same is true of dry exhuasts. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Another thing to point out is the need for insulation. The upside > down bottle isn't a bad idea in and of itself, for lead it will be an > acceptable crucible. The problem is that you can't have your heat > radiating away from the crucible. Since these sorts of melts are > really very temporary forays into the world of metal casting you need a > temporary form of insulation. There are fiber blankets that may very > well do the job. > > To that end I'd suggest popping into one of the hobby casting sites for > suggestions. People there are often working with zinc, aluminum or > castiron all of which have a higher melting temp than lead. In any > event it sounds like you need a flexible insulation blanket held in > place with a 55 gal drum. Check with MeMaster - Carr for such blankets. > > The big question in my mind is condition of the metal you are casting > into. One is the wonder if flux would help. The other is the > cold metal temperature. Too cold and you will have problems with the > flow of lead into the steel, if this is an aluminum keel even worst > freezing issues. So Preheating there is advisable as has already been > suggested. > > > Thanks > Dave > > Paul wrote: > > > > I have found that on a very cold day such as you describe that you > > need a lot of heat to get the lead to flow. Try pre-heating the > > cavity you are pouring it into as well. You may even find that > > melting in smaller batches is easier to manage than trying a massive > > pour of 1500 lbs. > > > > Paul H. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , aaron riis > > wrote: > > > > > > hi, all, > > > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > > > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > > > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > > > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > > > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > > > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > > > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > > > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > > > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > > > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > > > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > > > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > > > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > Aaron Riis > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > > > down. There has > > > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > > > than welding. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "David A. > > > > Frantz" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > > > a good idea to run > > > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > > > under stress. > > > > Thru > > > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > > > this would apply to > > > > > boats also. > > > > > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > > > experience. > > > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > > > see it is that the > > > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > > > properly spread > > > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > > > deck will introduce > > > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > > > be the worst. > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > > > which will be under > > > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > > > metal boat is u can > > > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > > > back to winches. > > > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > > > holes tapped into it > > > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > > > bolting the block > > > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > > > be in shear ie a > > > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > > > that can't happen when > > > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > > > top of the deck whose > > > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > > > aluminum plate thick > > > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > > > to tap thru and also > > > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > > > don't want to drill > > > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > > > the potential for > > > > > > leaks. > > > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > > > with the pull in > > > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > _______________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > | 12093|12070|2006-11-25 18:46:14|brentswain38|Re: melting lead|I've ad no problem with tire weights altho it may take a bit more heat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Steve's right, I think tire weights have antimony in them to make them > hard. > > Alex > | 12094|12055|2006-11-25 18:50:23|brentswain38|Re: Contacting Brent|hotmail.com or yahoo.ca Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I can be reached at brentswain38@... or at brentswain38@... > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "t_framer" wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > I have been trying to contact Brent at brentswain38@ but > > am not getting a response. I want to explore the possibility of coming > > to Vancouver Island to build a boat. It seems that materials > > availability is better there and the possibility of hiring Brent much > > as Alex did is very interesting. Karl Manzer > > > | 12095|12070|2006-11-25 22:22:29|David A. Frantz|Re: melting lead|Actually I'm thinking they are a ceramic fiber of some sort. Your point is well taken about the application of heat, apply enough and it will melt. There is little doubt there but there is an issue of economics, you will go through a lot of fuel and may very well need additional support hardware to fire the additional torches. Granted if LP is being used, 30 or 40 lb tanks come in very handy once the boat sails, I'm not sure about the torches and other stuff. Now I've just realized something, that is the fiber insulation might not be needed at all. A 55 gal drum slipped over the crucible will help out greatly and may last long enough for the melt to take place. It will do a couple of things, one is add protection from the wind and the other is to contain the flame from the torches. This is something I would try. Ideally a hole would be cut into the top and bottom lids to allow the barrel to slip over the crucible and provide the right amount of venting. Since it does not need to work more than once or twice and drums are cheap I'd try it. The only caveat being to make sure you know what was in the drums ahead of time. Dave brentswain38 wrote: > > Suround the crucible with enough heat and it won't be a > problem. Blankets are probably insulated with fibreglass which means > the one can simply use fibreglass house insulation with the same > effect, and far cheaper.The same is true of dry exhuasts. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Another thing to point out is the need for insulation. The upside > > down bottle isn't a bad idea in and of itself, for lead it will be an > > acceptable crucible. The problem is that you can't have your heat > > radiating away from the crucible. Since these sorts of melts are > > really very temporary forays into the world of metal casting you need a > > temporary form of insulation. There are fiber blankets that may very > > well do the job. > > > > To that end I'd suggest popping into one of the hobby casting sites for > > suggestions. People there are often working with zinc, aluminum or > > castiron all of which have a higher melting temp than lead. In any > > event it sounds like you need a flexible insulation blanket held in > > place with a 55 gal drum. Check with MeMaster - Carr for such > blankets. > > > > The big question in my mind is condition of the metal you are casting > > into. One is the wonder if flux would help. The other is the > > cold metal temperature. Too cold and you will have problems with the > > flow of lead into the steel, if this is an aluminum keel even worst > > freezing issues. So Preheating there is advisable as has already > been > > suggested. > > > > > > Thanks > > Dave > > > > Paul wrote: > > > > > > I have found that on a very cold day such as you describe that you > > > need a lot of heat to get the lead to flow. Try pre-heating the > > > cavity you are pouring it into as well. You may even find that > > > melting in smaller batches is easier to manage than trying a massive > > > pour of 1500 lbs. > > > > > > Paul H. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , aaron riis > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > hi, all, > > > > i've started to pour my keel. i tried something new > > > > and untried, i got three logs off of the beach, made a > > > > tripod and hung an old propane tank upside down with a > > > > chain and ran a pipe from there to the inside of the > > > > keel with a gate valve. i had 3 tiger torches going, > > > > it still seems like a slow process. i have 1500 lbs > > > > of tire weights. it seems like i may need more heat. > > > > it was a cold day around freezing today, also when > > > > lead comes out of the pipe, does it have to be much > > > > hotter than it's melting temperature so that it > > > > disperses evenly in the keel and doesn't freeze > > > > immediately after it leaves the pipe? any advice from > > > > those who have done it would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > Aaron Riis > > > > --- brentswain38 wrote: > > > > > > > > > On any metal boat never bolt down what can be welded > > > > > down. There has > > > > > never been invented a better way of attaching things > > > > > than welding. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "David A. > > > > > Frantz" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mickey; > > > > > > > > > > > > Fro my experience in industrial work it is never > > > > > a good idea to run > > > > > > tapped threads into an aluminum part that will be > > > > > under stress. > > > > > Thru > > > > > > bolts or Rivets are much better. I believe that > > > > > this would apply to > > > > > > boats also. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to welding aluminum can't comment on that from > > > > > experience. > > > > > > Hopefully somebody else can. The big issue as I > > > > > see it is that the > > > > > > plate be welded on in such a manner that stress is > > > > > properly spread > > > > > > out. However the very act of welding to the > > > > > deck will introduce > > > > > > stress in the deck. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all your choices I believe the taped holes to > > > > > be the worst. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a question regarding attaching fittings > > > > > which will be under > > > > > > > high load. I know that one of the benefits of a > > > > > metal boat is u can > > > > > > > simply weld attachment plates down. > > > > > > > I plan to put footblocks in place to handle > > > > > sheets and lines led aft > > > > > > > back to winches. > > > > > > > Would a welded down half inch plate with the > > > > > holes tapped into it > > > > > > > for the foot block's bolts be as strong as thru > > > > > bolting the block > > > > > > > with a back up plate? The pull on the foots will > > > > > be in shear ie a > > > > > > > 180 return from the footblock to a winch. > > > > > > > Bolting down u always run the risk of a leak > > > > > that can't happen when > > > > > > > welded. But welded down u also have a plate on > > > > > top of the deck whose > > > > > > > strength is the perimeter weld. Is half inch > > > > > aluminum plate thick > > > > > > > enough to hold tapped bolts or should it be > > > > > thicker? The foot blocks > > > > > > > have 4 x 5/16th bolts. The blocks are rated at > > > > > 4400 lb pull. > > > > > > > I have a half inch back up plate welded under > > > > > the 3/16th thick deck > > > > > > > to support the winches and the blocks. I plann > > > > > to tap thru and also > > > > > > > bolt the winches down with fender washers but > > > > > don't want to drill > > > > > > > thru the deck anywhere else so as to minimize > > > > > the potential for > > > > > > > leaks. > > > > > > > So I quess the questions are: Are welded plates > > > > > with the pull in > > > > > > > shear strong enough? Are tapped holes as strong > > > > > as thru bolted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > _______________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12096|12060|2006-11-26 08:08:14|sae140|Re: Fire-proof overalls|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Can you buy proban in a spray can or other form and use it on any > coveralls you may have? > Brent > Hi Brent - probably not. Although I've been told that the fire brigade (fire-fighting service) will treat garments with PROBAN for a nominal price, I suspect this is an urban myth, as the manufacturer's site: http://www.rhodia-proban.com/pi_the_chemical_process.asp reveals that it's a complex chemical process which is applied to cotton fabric at the manufacturing stage. But - might still be worth asking your local fire guys. The manufacturers claim that PROBAN will not get washed out under normal useage, but offshore clothing suppliers (http://www.brindle.uk.com/fireguard_suit.php) suggest that it's only good for 50 washes. What *is* clear is that UK (and presumably world-wide ?) firefighting clothing is now being specified as "100% 3111 Proban treated cotton, or Nomex Delta C if affordable" - so I think it's safe to conclude that the stuff works ok in practice. I've just checked an old (2004) Machine Mart catalogue - ordinary coveralls (polyester/cotton) priced £18-20. Proban coveralls priced at £29. Colin| 12097|12055|2006-11-27 01:17:20|lao tzu|Re: Contacting Brent|Hi Karl I was thinking of also going to the island to build a boat! Can you let me know what you find out and what you think? Yugen t_framer wrote: Hello All, I have been trying to contact Brent at brentswain38@... but am not getting a response. I want to explore the possibility of coming to Vancouver Island to build a boat. It seems that materials availability is better there and the possibility of hiring Brent much as Alex did is very interesting. Karl Manzer Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12098|12061|2006-11-28 15:51:11|Richard Till|Re: Boating in BC during the storm.|Brent, good choice, nice place. rt >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boating in BC during the storm. >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 22:37:16 -0000 > >I was tied to a mooring in Scotty bay srong enough to hold a BC ferry, >There are a lot of excellent hurricane holes in BC, sheltered enough >to make one totally unaware of how hard it is blowing outside. I >thought about what a blessing they would be in hurricane zones, then >thought" If they were in the tropics they would be so full of coral >that you couldn't row a dinghy thru." >Brent > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "claudepoitras" > wrote: > > > > To all those on the water, at this time. > > How are you dealing with this latest terible storm. > > It must not be very plesant to be a live-abord at this time. > > > > All is calm in Alberta. > > Claude > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more�then map the best route! Check out Live Local today! http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/| 12099|12099|2006-11-28 18:11:14|jim_both|Trends in costal uses.|An article on marina development. I guess the cooler climes will be spared this trend for at least a while longer. Cheers, Jim| 12100|12100|2006-11-28 19:24:44|woodcraftssuch|Welding stainless steel hazards|Not trying to be a nanny, but it was posted on another forum and it was a surprise to me and others. Here's 1 site and you can google others. Sam http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0100/d000026/d000026.html| 12101|12099|2006-11-28 19:31:30|woodcraftssuch|Re: Trends in costal uses.|It says I'm not authorized to view and wants me to subscribe. What does it say is the trend? Sam --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > > An article on marina development. I guess the cooler climes will be > spared this trend for at least a while longer. > > displaystory.cfm?story_id=8173384> > > Cheers, Jim > | 12102|12102|2006-11-28 20:53:01|chat_tonight119|I'm interested in your profile and I want to meet you!|I'm interested in your profile and I want to meet you! Chat with me by clicking the following links: http://www.lonelygirl4u.bravehost.com http://www.singleonlinechat.bravehost.com| 12103|12099|2006-11-28 21:30:56|jim_both|Re: Trends in costal uses.|Sorry mate, its the problem of getting a URL to read correctly when it extends beyond a single line. http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8\ 173384 If that doesn't work try cutting and pasting the URL into you browser with no spaces. cheers, Jim --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > It says I'm not authorized to view and wants me to subscribe. What does > it say is the trend? Sam > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" stainless316@ > wrote: > > > > > > An article on marina development. I guess the cooler climes will be > > spared this trend for at least a while longer. > > > > > displaystory.cfm?story_id=8173384> > > > > Cheers, Jim > > > | 12104|12099|2006-11-28 21:39:41|Peter Muth|Re: Trends in costal uses.|Sam, You may want to try carefully pasting the url into your browser rather than clicking on it. I don't subscribe, and did not get the please-subscribe message. But if you don't get in, the trend is the building of additional boat harbors/marinas and slips, to serve the recently growing number of boat owners worldwide. Good Luck, Peter woodcraftssuch wrote: > > It says I'm not authorized to view and wants me to subscribe. What does > it say is the trend? Sam > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "jim_both" > wrote: > > > > > > An article on marina development. I guess the cooler climes will be > > spared this trend for at least a while longer. > > > > > > displaystory.cfm?story_id=8173384> > > > > Cheers, Jim > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12105|12099|2006-11-29 16:43:02|woodcraftssuch|Re: Trends in costal uses.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > > Sorry mate, its the problem of getting a URL to read correctly when it > extends beyond a single line. > > http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm? story_id=8\ > 173384 OK, that worked. Thanks. By colder climes, do you mean like Antartica? Or maybe the far side of the moon. I get this free subscription to Showboats International and its companion, Tenders and Toys. One article in the T&T is "Where's the best place to store the helicopter, fishing boat, wine cellar and all that extra gear?" Apparently, once you add your personal submarine, cars, a fleet of PWCs etc., the decks are so cluttered and "common" looking, the best solution is what's called a 'Shadow Boat', usually a converted OSV (offshore supply vessel) in the 150-200' range. There are changes going on in the world and you and I are not part of them except as some sort of fodder. Sam| 12106|12106|2006-11-30 22:34:26|Gary|Rough weather steering|I am killing time ("as if you could kill time and not injure eternity ...Thoreau) in Ontario (kitty stuff) until back aboard in April and I remembered a question I wanted to post. Last August returning to Vancouver Island out in the Hecate Straight in 25 kts and following sea I had to leave the pilot house and manually steer as wind vane and tiller pilot could not keep course. Anyone else have this problem and how did you deal with it. Regards... Gary| 12107|12106|2006-12-01 15:01:32|brentswain38|Re: Rough weather steering|I usually steer from the inside in rough conditions, using the jog stick hooked up to the trimtab. It's finger light , making me glad I'm not pumping on a wheel , wondering where the rudder is. Using a jib only downwind, rolling it up till the GPS says 5 knots ,makes it much easier.I prefer warm dry comfort over an extra knot of speed. Dropping the main and reefing the jib lets the windvane handle it unless you want an extremely accurate course in restricted waters. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > I am killing time ("as if you could kill time and not injure > eternity ...Thoreau) in Ontario (kitty stuff) until back aboard in > April and I remembered a question I wanted to post. Last August > returning to Vancouver Island out in the Hecate Straight in 25 kts and > following sea I had to leave the pilot house and manually steer as > wind vane and tiller pilot could not keep course. Anyone else have > this problem and how did you deal with it. > > Regards... Gary > | 12108|12108|2006-12-02 12:10:39|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|A couple questions concerning the anchor winch|Hi flks, Those of you who have built your own anchor winch: 1) how long of a center shaft do you find sufficient? 2) what plate thickness should be used for the circular side plates? Thanks Paul > > > > > | 12109|12108|2006-12-02 21:37:47|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Lazy Bones Update|Hi to the group! After a summer of racing, I've returned from a month cruising in Malaysia aboard the Lazy Bones. The Bones is in great shape and I've posted full interior pictures of the boat for the first time. Anyone interested can view the details at: http://origamimagic.com/sale/interior_pic.htm Langkawi continues to grow as the premier sailing destination in SE Asia. The Bones is now there full-time and available for sail/sale under a "try before you buy" program. If you are interested in cruising and think the Bones might be right for you, have a look. She is well equipped and ready to go. http://origamimagic.com/sale/LB39_Trial.htm I'm still recommending buying over building for most people, especially if your aim is to get out sailing. It worked for me. As I recall, Brent started out with the parts from Pipe Dream and replaced the broken hull with steel. For most people, the cheapest, quickest, and surest way to get all the bits and pieces required to build a boat is to buy a used boat as a starting point. Way less expensive than buying the parts, piece by piece - even second hand. Sure there are exceptions, but for most people the time required to actually complete all the finishing - this takes years. I met up with Locky at the Royal Langkawi while I was there. He has picked up a really nice alloy boat. I've known the boat for years and would have bought her in a heartbeat. He traded up from two Brent boats he bought along the way, for much less than he could have built them. Hopefully he will give the group an update on Langkawi as he gets out onto the water. One of the nicest boats I ever sailed with was one of the very first FG boats. An old 55 footer, traditional lines, built super strong, saved from the scrap heap in the Caribbean, bought for a song. A great looking boat that sails like a dream. Take the money you were going to spend building. Take the time you were going to spend building. Buy a good used boat in need of some TLC. You will end up sailing faster, for less. Move aboard sooner. Put the money you save in rent into the cruising kitty, or the next boat. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12110|12108|2006-12-03 00:11:38|Alex Christie|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Greg's got some valid points there, though I've got a few different angles on his statements I'd like to cordially put forth. Some of my own statements are concordant, some are divergent. I agree that buying your first few boat(s) is a great idea, then once you know what you want in a boat after many voyages, and really can't find it in the market, then go ahead and build. It's a real joy to be able specify exactly what you want, and have your dream come true. Often it's the ONLY way to get what you want. Some people like to build boats because they love the process. And there are also people out there blind to the costs, on purpose, because they are very fixated on what they want and will not compromise on their vision. For the average Joe, those kinds of economics are not suitable, but on the other hand some amazing vessels have been created by extremely open checkbooks. The economics of building vs buying are all over the map; a used boat requiring a re-fit, unless you intend to just use it to motor around Nanaimo Harbour and sip cocktails in the cockpit (this is more common than you think, and a perfectly legitimate use if that's what you want!), could cost you as much as it costs for the materials to build a Brent boat from scratch. An off-the shelf mast and rigging can cost you well over the value of all the steel, stainless, boxes of rods that it would cost to build your own hull, then you can build your own mast. Yes, time building is a factor, but if you've got time then go for it. Buying used equipment to refit, as long as it is in good shape, could of course downwardly adjust the ratio of refit cost to new-build cost, so it just depends on what you are going to do with your used boat. One very well-built Brent boat sold not long ago for around $99,000 cdn; I believe she was about $45,000 to build (anyone know the actual figures, please post). Since every boat is built differently, there's no guarantee that your BS 36 would be worth that much, but that's a helluva markup for the outlay of cash. Again, I'm discounting time, but the amateur boat is a labour of love, often built in between other pursuits. I'm all for moving aboard early onto an existing boat to escape the land-owner trap (except that I need the land to build a boat...). Taxes, upkeep, and general headaches of house ownership can easily surpass the cost of owning a properly built yacht. I think the statement that people make about boats being holes in the water into which you pour money comes from people who walk in blindly when buying a boat, get suckered, then blame boats in general for their lack of research before buying. I've owned 3 boats, two of which I've lived on, and each boat sold for either the same or more than what I bought it for, with minimal input on my part to refurbish them. I found a listing recently on kijiji.com for a Victoria listing of a 42 foot steel trawler for around $99,000. Houses on my street are now selling for nearly $300,000 -- a little over that for larger ones. One couple I know lived on their Colvin boat (incidentally it had been modified with a Brent-style pilot house, anchor winch and I think solid lifelines) while they both worked. They saved a whack of cash and built a BS 36 exactly to their every specification, and did not sell their other boat until they were absolutely sure the BS 36 was ready to be moved aboard. An excellent strategy. Alex On 2-Dec-06, at 6:34 PM, ge@... wrote: > Hi to the group! > > After a summer of racing, I've returned from a month cruising in > Malaysia > aboard the Lazy Bones. The Bones is in great shape and I've posted > full > interior pictures of the boat for the first time. Anyone interested > can > view the details at: > > http://origamimagic.com/sale/interior_pic.htm > > Langkawi continues to grow as the premier sailing destination in SE > Asia. > The Bones is now there full-time and available for sail/sale under a > "try > before you buy" program. If you are interested in cruising and think > the > Bones might be right for you, have a look. She is well equipped and > ready > to go. > > http://origamimagic.com/sale/LB39_Trial.htm > > I'm still recommending buying over building for most people, > especially if > your aim is to get out sailing. It worked for me. As I recall, Brent > started out with the parts from Pipe Dream and replaced the broken > hull with > steel. > > For most people, the cheapest, quickest, and surest way to get all > the bits > and pieces required to build a boat is to buy a used boat as a > starting > point. Way less expensive than buying the parts, piece by piece - even > second hand. Sure there are exceptions, but for most people the time > required to actually complete all the finishing - this takes years. > > I met up with Locky at the Royal Langkawi while I was there. He has > picked > up a really nice alloy boat. I've known the boat for years and would > have > bought her in a heartbeat. He traded up from two Brent boats he bought > along the way, for much less than he could have built them. Hopefully > he > will give the group an update on Langkawi as he gets out onto the > water. > > One of the nicest boats I ever sailed with was one of the very first > FG > boats. An old 55 footer, traditional lines, built super strong, saved > from > the scrap heap in the Caribbean, bought for a song. A great looking > boat > that sails like a dream. > > Take the money you were going to spend building. Take the time you > were > going to spend building. Buy a good used boat in need of some TLC. You > will end up sailing faster, for less. Move aboard sooner. Put the > money > you save in rent into the cruising kitty, or the next boat. > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12111|12108|2006-12-03 13:51:21|Jim Burgoyne|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Alex, I think those are good points, but I come at it from another angle. I don't have that much money, but I know it would take me a hell of a lot longer to build a boat than would be worth it. Life is too short. Any task I have not done before on a boat, and still there are many, I sit and stare at it for days (my wife calls it "contemplating") before I jump in with enough confidence that I know what I intend to do. If I was to build a boat, I can only imagine the time I would waste just thinking about how the hell I would do every unfamiliar job to come along. Can't speak for others, and I admire folks who build themselves, but I am not the handiest guy on this block and would be better off spending the time doing something I know I can make money at. Like Greg, I am currently in Langkawi. Correction, my little boat is on the hard in Langkawi and I am in Bangkok working. I joined this list a while back because I had heard about the origami method and wanted to learn about it. I have it in my head that once I get home to Vancouver Island I am going to have an aluminum boat built -- as close to finished as I can afford. I think I know what I want in a boat. But I know enough about myself not to embark on such a DIY project. I know folks who like building as much as sailing. That ain't me, though sometimes I wish it was. cheers, and if anyone knows of a good alloy builder on the island, would love to hear about it. Heard that Christensen Yachts has packed it in. Jim Re: Lazy Bones Update > Posted > by: "Alex Christie" achristie@... > northcanoe > Sat Dec 2, 2006 9:11 pm (PST) Greg's got some valid points there, though I've got a few different > angles on his statements I'd like to cordially put forth. Some of my > own statements are concordant, some are divergent. I agree that buying > your first few boat(s) is a great idea, then once you know what you > want in a boat after many voyages, and really can't find it in the > market, then go ahead and build. It's a real joy to be able specify > exactly what you want, and have your dream come true. Often it's the > ONLY way to get what you want. > > Some people like to build boats because they love the process. And > there are also people out there blind to the costs, on purpose, because > they are very fixated on what they want and will not compromise on > their vision. For the average Joe, those kinds of economics are not > suitable, but on the other hand some amazing vessels have been created > by extremely open checkbooks. > > The economics of building vs buying are all over the map; a used boat > requiring a re-fit, unless you intend to just use it to motor around > Nanaimo Harbour and sip cocktails in the cockpit (this is more common > than you think, and a perfectly legitimate use if that's what you > want!), could cost you as much as it costs for the materials to build a > Brent boat from scratch. An off-the shelf mast and rigging can cost > you well over the value of all the steel, stainless, boxes of rods that > it would cost to build your own hull, then you can build your own mast. > Yes, time building is a factor, but if you've got time then go for it. > Buying used equipment to refit, as long as it is in good shape, could > of course downwardly adjust the ratio of refit cost to new-build cost, > so it just depends on what you are going to do with your used boat. > > One very well-built Brent boat sold not long ago for around $99,000 > cdn; I believe she was about $45,000 to build (anyone know the actual > figures, please post). Since every boat is built differently, there's > no guarantee that your BS 36 would be worth that much, but that's a > helluva markup for the outlay of cash. Again, I'm discounting time, > but the amateur boat is a labour of love, often built in between other > pursuits. > > I'm all for moving aboard early onto an existing boat to escape the > land-owner trap (except that I need the land to build a boat...). > Taxes, upkeep, and general headaches of house ownership can easily > surpass the cost of owning a properly built yacht. I think the > statement that people make about boats being holes in the water into > which you pour money comes from people who walk in blindly when buying > a boat, get suckered, then blame boats in general for their lack of > research before buying. I've owned 3 boats, two of which I've lived > on, and each boat sold for either the same or more than what I bought > it for, with minimal input on my part to refurbish them. I found a > listing recently on kijiji.com for a Victoria listing of a 42 foot > steel trawler for around $99,000. Houses on my street are now selling > for nearly $300,000 -- a little over that for larger ones. > > One couple I know lived on their Colvin boat (incidentally it had been > modified with a Brent-style pilot house, anchor winch and I think solid > lifelines) while they both worked. They saved a whack of cash and > built a BS 36 exactly to their every specification, and did not sell > their other boat until they were absolutely sure the BS 36 was ready to > be moved aboard. An excellent strategy. > > Alex > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12112|12112|2006-12-03 16:21:10|Aaron|Bullrail|What have other builders of the BS36 used for the bullrail? In the plans the parts list call for 1-1/4" galv for the bullrail and then on the drawing it shows it to be 1" with 3/4" hand rails. Aaron| 12113|12108|2006-12-04 14:47:56|brentswain38|Re: A couple questions concerning the anchor winch|Paul 18 to 24 inches is good for the spool length. I use 1/8th inch ss plate for the ends. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi flks, > > Those of you who have built your own anchor winch: > > 1) how long of a center shaft do you find sufficient? > > 2) what plate thickness should be used for the circular side plates? > > Thanks > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12114|12112|2006-12-04 14:50:34|brentswain38|Re: Bullrail|Use 1 1/4 inch sch 40 galv or stainless if you can find a cheap enough source. If I had to ration stainless , I'd put about 6 feet of it from just in front of the pilothouse , where you drag the dinghy over it, and a foot back from the bow roller either side. Those are the areas where the paint gets chipped. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > What have other builders of the BS36 used for the bullrail? > > In the plans the parts list call for 1-1/4" galv for the bullrail and > then on the drawing it shows it to be 1" with 3/4" hand rails. > Aaron > | 12115|12108|2006-12-04 15:06:55|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Am owner of a Christiansen yacht told me they packed it in. He also told me that Waterline was sold and Ed went cruising. After mmany years of hard work he gets to do what I've been doing since my early 20's. He, however ,took the scenic route. If you have to borrow money from the bank ,you can expect to spend double of the price of the "deal" you got. Again ,I started my current boat with $4,000 in the bank. A month later I launched her with $40 in the bank. I got her sailing and moved aboard later that summer. Try do that and have time to cruise with a huge bank loan to pay off. Building your own is a case of pay as you can with no interest. My book covers this issue well . Read it. Marinas are filled with permanently moored boats who bought the"buy instead of build" philosophy, while their owners go to work to pay for them ,plus interest. If I wanted to be where they are I'd follow their example . I listen to how they are making out when I listen to the traffic report in the morning( before going back to sleep for another hour.) Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burgoyne" wrote: > > Alex, > > I think those are good points, but I come at it from another angle. I don't > have that much money, but I know it would take me a hell of a lot longer to > build a boat than would be worth it. Life is too short. Any task I have not > done before on a boat, and still there are many, I sit and stare at it for > days (my wife calls it "contemplating") before I jump in with enough > confidence that I know what I intend to do. If I was to build a boat, I can > only imagine the time I would waste just thinking about how the hell I would > do every unfamiliar job to come along. Can't speak for others, and I admire > folks who build themselves, but I am not the handiest guy on this block and > would be better off spending the time doing something I know I can make > money at. > > Like Greg, I am currently in Langkawi. Correction, my little boat is on the > hard in Langkawi and I am in Bangkok working. I joined this list a while > back because I had heard about the origami method and wanted to learn about > it. I have it in my head that once I get home to Vancouver Island I am going > to have an aluminum boat built -- as close to finished as I can afford. > > I think I know what I want in a boat. But I know enough about myself not to > embark on such a DIY project. I know folks who like building as much as > sailing. That ain't me, though sometimes I wish it was. > > cheers, and if anyone knows of a good alloy builder on the island, would > love to hear about it. Heard that Christensen Yachts has packed it in. > Jim > > > Re: Lazy Bones Update > > Posted > > by: "Alex Christie" achristie@... > > northcanoe > > Sat Dec 2, 2006 9:11 pm (PST) Greg's got some valid points there, though I've got a few different > > angles on his statements I'd like to cordially put forth. Some of my > > own statements are concordant, some are divergent. I agree that buying > > your first few boat(s) is a great idea, then once you know what you > > want in a boat after many voyages, and really can't find it in the > > market, then go ahead and build. It's a real joy to be able specify > > exactly what you want, and have your dream come true. Often it's the > > ONLY way to get what you want. > > > > Some people like to build boats because they love the process. And > > there are also people out there blind to the costs, on purpose, because > > they are very fixated on what they want and will not compromise on > > their vision. For the average Joe, those kinds of economics are not > > suitable, but on the other hand some amazing vessels have been created > > by extremely open checkbooks. > > > > The economics of building vs buying are all over the map; a used boat > > requiring a re-fit, unless you intend to just use it to motor around > > Nanaimo Harbour and sip cocktails in the cockpit (this is more common > > than you think, and a perfectly legitimate use if that's what you > > want!), could cost you as much as it costs for the materials to build a > > Brent boat from scratch. An off-the shelf mast and rigging can cost > > you well over the value of all the steel, stainless, boxes of rods that > > it would cost to build your own hull, then you can build your own mast. > > Yes, time building is a factor, but if you've got time then go for it. > > Buying used equipment to refit, as long as it is in good shape, could > > of course downwardly adjust the ratio of refit cost to new-build cost, > > so it just depends on what you are going to do with your used boat. > > > > One very well-built Brent boat sold not long ago for around $99,000 > > cdn; I believe she was about $45,000 to build (anyone know the actual > > figures, please post). Since every boat is built differently, there's > > no guarantee that your BS 36 would be worth that much, but that's a > > helluva markup for the outlay of cash. Again, I'm discounting time, > > but the amateur boat is a labour of love, often built in between other > > pursuits. > > > > I'm all for moving aboard early onto an existing boat to escape the > > land-owner trap (except that I need the land to build a boat...). > > Taxes, upkeep, and general headaches of house ownership can easily > > surpass the cost of owning a properly built yacht. I think the > > statement that people make about boats being holes in the water into > > which you pour money comes from people who walk in blindly when buying > > a boat, get suckered, then blame boats in general for their lack of > > research before buying. I've owned 3 boats, two of which I've lived > > on, and each boat sold for either the same or more than what I bought > > it for, with minimal input on my part to refurbish them. I found a > > listing recently on kijiji.com for a Victoria listing of a 42 foot > > steel trawler for around $99,000. Houses on my street are now selling > > for nearly $300,000 -- a little over that for larger ones. > > > > One couple I know lived on their Colvin boat (incidentally it had been > > modified with a Brent-style pilot house, anchor winch and I think solid > > lifelines) while they both worked. They saved a whack of cash and > > built a BS 36 exactly to their every specification, and did not sell > > their other boat until they were absolutely sure the BS 36 was ready to > > be moved aboard. An excellent strategy. > > > > Alex > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12116|12108|2006-12-04 15:31:10|Alex Christie|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I think another issue is people's expectations for their boat; is it a tool for travelling, or is it a work of art? I got fussy on some things on my boat (as well as taking time to do filming) and it only served to slow things up. The filming for the video could not be done differently, but the fussing can go. In terms of what to expect for your dollar, you can't build a gold statue out of bronze, but you can accept that bronze can make a damn fine statue in its own right. And you know that boatbuilders of old actually preferred bronze :-) Same thing for building a boat. Order everything off the shelf and you will spend well beyond your means, sometimes more than buying a used boat (but don't forget to factor in refit if you are doing more than Nanaimo harbour tours, I cannot overemphasize the need to refit to the specifications required by the conditions you expect to meet -- anything less is foolhardy). Be a master scrounger and still end up with a fine boat. However, there are those who don't want to do that, and no doubt they can spend lots building, as much as buying in some cases. It just depends if they follow the philosophy that Brent espouses and accept that if they are of limited means, they will have to work for their dream, and end up with a working boat instead of a floating gin palace. For example, most of the Swain boats I see that are actively lived on, out there sailing, are very plain and simply fitted out inside. The owners just wanted to go and they just did what they could and damn the torpedoes. Hull, rig and engine are where it's at, the rest is just bits and pieces of whatever you want, to the specs you want, and you are good to go. Brent used ash hockey stick pieces to finish off the counters that were faced with melamine found on the cheap -- he didn't fuss about on interior design issues, but actually I never noticed until he pointed out where he got the materials from. But certainly, if you have the funds available then buy your boat and go cruising. The clock is ticking! I hear mine loud and clear, and don't think for a moment that I don't notice every minute not spent cruisin'). Alex (Age 40 and counting) On 4-Dec-06, at 11:55 AM, brentswain38 wrote: > Am owner of a Christiansen yacht told me they packed it in. He also > told me that Waterline was sold and Ed went cruising. After mmany > years of hard work he gets to do what I've been doing since my early > 20's. He, however ,took the scenic route. > If you have to borrow money from the bank ,you can expect to spend > double of the price of the "deal" you got. > Again ,I started my current boat with $4,000 in the bank. A month > later I launched her with $40 in the bank. I got her sailing and moved > aboard later that summer. Try do that and have time to cruise with a > huge bank loan to pay off. Building your own is a case of pay as you > can with no interest. My book covers this issue well . Read it. > Marinas are filled with permanently moored boats who bought the"buy > instead of build" philosophy, while their owners go to work to pay > for them ,plus interest. If I wanted to be where they are I'd follow > their example . I listen to how they are making out when I listen to > the traffic report in the morning( before going back to sleep for > another hour.) > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burgoyne" > wrote: > > > > Alex, > > > > I think those are good points, but I come at it from another angle. > I don't > > have that much money, but I know it would take me a hell of a lot > longer to > > build a boat than would be worth it. Life is too short. Any task I > have not > > done before on a boat, and still there are many, I sit and stare at > it for > > days (my wife calls it "contemplating") before I jump in with enough > > confidence that I know what I intend to do. If I was to build a > boat, I can > > only imagine the time I would waste just thinking about how the hell > I would > > do every unfamiliar job to come along. Can't speak for others, and I > admire > > folks who build themselves, but I am not the handiest guy on this > block and > > would be better off spending the time doing something I know I can > make > > money at. > > > > Like Greg, I am currently in Langkawi. Correction, my little boat is > on the > > hard in Langkawi and I am in Bangkok working. I joined this list a > while > > back because I had heard about the origami method and wanted to > learn about > > it. I have it in my head that once I get home to Vancouver Island I > am going > > to have an aluminum boat built -- as close to finished as I can > afford. > > > > I think I know what I want in a boat. But I know enough about myself > not to > > embark on such a DIY project. I know folks who like building as > much as > > sailing. That ain't me, though sometimes I wish it was. > > > > cheers, and if anyone knows of a good alloy builder on the island, > would > > love to hear about it. Heard that Christensen Yachts has packed it > in. > > Jim > > > > > > Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > > _ylc=X3oDMTJyMmFodWY5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1Nzk0ODgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNz > A1MTUwODcyBG1zZ0lkAzEyMTEwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNjUxNTE0O > Tg-> > Posted > > > by: "Alex Christie" achristie@... > > > northcanoe > > > Sat Dec 2, 2006 9:11 pm > (PST) Greg's got some valid points there, though I've got a few > different > > > angles on his statements I'd like to cordially put forth. Some of > my > > > own statements are concordant, some are divergent. I agree that > buying > > > your first few boat(s) is a great idea, then once you know what > you > > > want in a boat after many voyages, and really can't find it in the > > > market, then go ahead and build. It's a real joy to be able > specify > > > exactly what you want, and have your dream come true. Often it's > the > > > ONLY way to get what you want. > > > > > > Some people like to build boats because they love the process. And > > > there are also people out there blind to the costs, on purpose, > because > > > they are very fixated on what they want and will not compromise on > > > their vision. For the average Joe, those kinds of economics are > not > > > suitable, but on the other hand some amazing vessels have been > created > > > by extremely open checkbooks. > > > > > > The economics of building vs buying are all over the map; a used > boat > > > requiring a re-fit, unless you intend to just use it to motor > around > > > Nanaimo Harbour and sip cocktails in the cockpit (this is more > common > > > than you think, and a perfectly legitimate use if that's what you > > > want!), could cost you as much as it costs for the materials to > build a > > > Brent boat from scratch. An off-the shelf mast and rigging can > cost > > > you well over the value of all the steel, stainless, boxes of rods > that > > > it would cost to build your own hull, then you can build your own > mast. > > > Yes, time building is a factor, but if you've got time then go > for it. > > > Buying used equipment to refit, as long as it is in good shape, > could > > > of course downwardly adjust the ratio of refit cost to new-build > cost, > > > so it just depends on what you are going to do with your used > boat. > > > > > > One very well-built Brent boat sold not long ago for around > $99,000 > > > cdn; I believe she was about $45,000 to build (anyone know the > actual > > > figures, please post). Since every boat is built differently, > there's > > > no guarantee that your BS 36 would be worth that much, but that's > a > > > helluva markup for the outlay of cash. Again, I'm discounting > time, > > > but the amateur boat is a labour of love, often built in between > other > > > pursuits. > > > > > > I'm all for moving aboard early onto an existing boat to escape > the > > > land-owner trap (except that I need the land to build a boat...). > > > Taxes, upkeep, and general headaches of house ownership can easily > > > surpass the cost of owning a properly built yacht. I think the > > > statement that people make about boats being holes in the water > into > > > which you pour money comes from people who walk in blindly when > buying > > > a boat, get suckered, then blame boats in general for their lack > of > > > research before buying. I've owned 3 boats, two of which I've > lived > > > on, and each boat sold for either the same or more than what I > bought > > > it for, with minimal input on my part to refurbish them. I found a > > > listing recently on kijiji.com for a Victoria listing of a 42 foot > > > steel trawler for around $99,000. Houses on my street are now > selling > > > for nearly $300,000 -- a little over that for larger ones. > > > > > > One couple I know lived on their Colvin boat (incidentally it had > been > > > modified with a Brent-style pilot house, anchor winch and I think > solid > > > lifelines) while they both worked. They saved a whack of cash and > > > built a BS 36 exactly to their every specification, and did not > sell > > > their other boat until they were absolutely sure the BS 36 was > ready to > > > be moved aboard. An excellent strategy. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12117|12108|2006-12-05 00:56:29|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Lazy Bones Update|My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of this to make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in rent. This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the very first day. Rather than spending months or years building and paying for materials I used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most builders have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and can be yours the same way: http://www.origamimagic.com/sale/lb39.htm Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12118|12112|2006-12-05 01:52:56|P-O Gustafsson|Re: Bullrail|brentswain38 wrote: > Use 1 1/4 inch sch 40 galv or stainless... Brent, and others, would you please consider using metric values also? I don't think I'm the only non American on this list, and thus it would be equally difficult for others to figure out what SCH 40 is. It's only Liberia, Burma and the USA that hasn't converted to metric yet. Inevitably they also will with time, and some encouragement wouldn't be so bad to speed it up....;-) Same goes for your book. I appreciate it very much, straight forward useful info. But I have a hard time figuring out some of the details as it is imperial units. Me think you should also ad metric values. I get the feeling SCH means wall thickness, can someone present some way of converting it to mm? -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden| 12119|12108|2006-12-05 02:42:07|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Lazy Bones Update|So why are you here this is a sight for those interested in building boats not buying one someone else built. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of this to > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in rent. > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the very first > day. > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for materials I > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most builders > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and can be > yours the same way: > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12120|12112|2006-12-05 02:44:26|Aaron Williams|Re: Bullrail|Freeware program for converting most anything fromm temps to distance,and energy http://www.edasolutions.com/Units/SIConvert.htm Convert.exe is the file Aaron P-O Gustafsson wrote: brentswain38 wrote: > Use 1 1/4 inch sch 40 galv or stainless... Brent, and others, would you please consider using metric values also? I don't think I'm the only non American on this list, and thus it would be equally difficult for others to figure out what SCH 40 is. It's only Liberia, Burma and the USA that hasn't converted to metric yet. Inevitably they also will with time, and some encouragement wouldn't be so bad to speed it up....;-) Same goes for your book. I appreciate it very much, straight forward useful info. But I have a hard time figuring out some of the details as it is imperial units. Me think you should also ad metric values. I get the feeling SCH means wall thickness, can someone present some way of converting it to mm? -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12121|12108|2006-12-05 05:47:21|sae140|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > So why are you here this is a sight for those interested in building > boats not buying one someone else built. > > Jon Jon - this is an example of 'flamebait': "Flamebait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (aka "flame") or argument ..." Greg has a history of such posts (check the archive). Suggest you distrust evangelists of *any* kind - people who are content with what they are doing in life tend not to go around trying to persuade others to their views. Sharing information is a different matter entirely. How a person is actually living their life in practice should tell you far more about them than the methods they use to sell their ideas. Colin| 12123|12112|2006-12-05 07:57:34|edward_stoneuk|Re: Bullrail|P-O Gustafsson, Sch is short for schedule. You are correct it is to do with wall thickness. If one Googles "schedule 40 metric wall thickness" you should get the values you require. In general Sched 40 is standard medium weight pipe. Sched 10 is thinner wall and Sched 80 heavy duty pipe. In the UK we are in a kind of limbo as far as metric and imperial units are used. All road signs still use miles and not kilometres, and we refer to the Schedule when buying stainless pipe. We use imperial sizes for pipe threads e.g ½" BSP. Elswhere apart from ½" NPT areas, my understanding is that folks use R½ so pipe thread sizes still stay imperial. Regards, Ted| 12124|12108|2006-12-05 09:09:18|Gerd|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of this to > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in rent. > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the very first > day. Greg - welcome back! and I sure hope you manage to sell your boat with a profit ;-) but: I think that advising people to buy a second hand boat rather than to build one, for example from alloy, which was what you advised not so long ago... ;-) should not be seen as an alternative to building, rather as a different initial choice to make. I am the first to advise people to go into a deep inside research if what they want is really to BUILD a boat of if they want to HAVE a boat, and - maybe not always but in many cases - there are easier and cheaper ways to HAVE one than to spend years of your life to build it. The wish to build contains a lot of other things, self realization, the building and the length of the project, what it does to you and your life and so on, and I think that as much as the resulting boat accounts for the original decision to build. But if this is not something that you really actively WANT to go through, better buy second hand and go sailing now. Actually, I just bought a dirt cheap 8 m steel boat in Holland to go sailing during my holidays next summer, will introduce the family to sailing and keep the motivation for the building of our Yago for the rest of the year. (a 1973 "snekermeer", there are lots of them around, for the price of 2 weeks charter...) So, why not do both, build AND sail, buy a small thing to potter around in and build the real one with "lots" of time and without frustration? I am sure that the day I will launch my Yago, the little reserve, or even some equipment from selling the small one will come in handy, nothing lost there. Your proposition of buying a finished boat to live on board and work until it's paid off, is something that I personally would not want to do, except for extremely short periods. Having to work off 40 K at the rate of 1 K per month, would mean that I have to live on the boat and work in town for 40 month plus interests.. Now, even if people are in a position to do so (get the loan, have a job that would allow that...) I found that living on a boat all year round to go to work in the city is very difficult. I did it for about a year, but on my own, and there were about half a dozen couples in the old port in La Rochelle trying to do the same. At least they were couples when they moved on board.. not one of them outlasted the year, either they split or they moved back ashore. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 12125|12112|2006-12-05 09:26:54|P-O Gustafsson|Re: Bullrail|edward_stoneuk wrote: > Sch is short for schedule. You are correct it is to do with wall > thickness. If one Googles "schedule 40 metric wall thickness" you > should get the values you require. Thanks Ted, I been searching but gave up when I came to plumbing shops all the time... SCH is obviously not a direct measure of size, but of someting else like strength compared to diameter..? Doesn't seem possible to convert other than a table. > In the UK we are in a kind of limbo as far as metric and > imperial units are used. I know, convering to metric inch by inch..:-) It takes several generations to change over, and in some areas it's too costly or dangerous to do it. I used to buy timber by inches when I was young, now younger people here don't know what I'm talking about when asking for a 2x4. The folding rules used to have inches too, but they are gone now. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden| 12126|12126|2006-12-05 10:16:02|BrdbMc@aol.com|just a hi|Having joined this site i am amazed at the type of boat. I doubt if i will ever build one but i do live on a steel narrowboat and looking at the layouts of lockers, etc. it gives the brain cells left something to work on. I have always had an interest in boats having lived on a converted landing craft as a boy, then joining the merchant navy as an engineer. working on both steam and motor ships. A boatyard near to were i lived in the early 50s built steel canoes to ship to Canada. Of all the craft i have seen from longtails to hydrofoils the one regret i have is that in 1966 i decided that a trip on a stern wheeler meal included was over my budget whilst in New Orleans. Keep building and boating Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12128|12112|2006-12-05 15:00:52|brentswain38|Re: Bullrail|1 1/4 sch 40 is roughly 42 mm OD and 4mm wall thickness. It's standard plumbing galv pipe .Most of our tape measures in Canada have both metric and imperial . Converting is as simple as buying a Canadian tape . Some pocket calculators do metric conversion. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, P-O Gustafsson wrote: > > brentswain38 wrote: > > > Use 1 1/4 inch sch 40 galv or stainless... > > Brent, and others, would you please consider using metric values also? > I don't think I'm the only non American on this list, and thus it > would be equally difficult for others to figure out what SCH 40 is. > It's only Liberia, Burma and the USA that hasn't converted to metric > yet. Inevitably they also will with time, and some encouragement > wouldn't be so bad to speed it up....;-) > > Same goes for your book. I appreciate it very much, straight forward > useful info. But I have a hard time figuring out some of the details > as it is imperial units. Me think you should also ad metric values. > > I get the feeling SCH means wall thickness, can someone present some > way of converting it to mm? > > -- > Regards > > P-O Gustafsson, Sweden > | 12129|12108|2006-12-05 18:21:18|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|In general, amateurs that build successful boats start from a point of experience with other boats. It is hard to build a successful boat the first time without this experience - you will make mistakes and not know they are mistakes. Brent and Alex for example, both had this experience before they started building. If you want to go sailing, are short on experience because you don't have a boat, and short of money, start with a good used boat. Rather than pouring money down the drain in rent, put it in your pocket. Yes, you will pay interest, but much of it you will keep. Otherwise, you will lose it all to the landlord. Use this money to buy your first boat. Use the first boat to get the experience and money to pay for building the second. There is more to building a boat than the construction. You need experience and you need money. If you study successful amateur builders, you will find that this formula is one that works. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update So why are you here this is a sight for those interested in building boats not buying one someone else built. Jon --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of this to > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in rent. > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the very first > day. > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for materials I > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most builders > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and can be > yours the same way: > > > > http://www.origamim agic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12130|12108|2006-12-05 19:20:39|Alex Christie|Re: Lazy Bones Update|It's true, I'm drawing on experience from other boats, still wishing I had a little more experience in fact, but winging it anyway. I also think there's a middle path -- that one couple bought a Saugeen Witch and then kind of "Brentified" it to suit their needs, living on it for years while they saved. They got it cheap then invested a small amount to make it more suited to living aboard (pilot house) in this climate. That boat served them extremely well until they were ready to build, and they didn't move off it until the BS 36 was completely ready. Excellent strategy, which I promptly ignored (and I've paid for it!). There are many ways to approach the goal of setting sail in a sustainable way, let's ponder and appreciate all the angles or "tacks" we can take to round that elusive "headland" called "the cruising life." And may we recognize that each approach will be uniquely attuned to the person's means, personal abilities and expectations. Beyond the logistical challenge of actually arranging one's life to build a boat (plus gather the knowledge, experience, skills, etc to actually finish it), there remains one fairly solid piece of evidence to cling to in all this: It can generally be stated, and feel free to add in your own figures, that you can build one of these boats for between $30,000 at the utility low end (super-duper scrounge master, rebuild your own engine that you got for almost free, etc), to $65,000 for the gold-plater. I've scanned boat ads for offshore vessels that are NOT in need of refit, just ready to go turnkey boats, and I'm seeing them run at $99,000 to $130,000. Don't forget to factor in the refit if you want a boat with equivalent ability -- you can't ignore that because it is indeed a life or death issue. It's either ready for offshore, or it isn't, and mother nature will let you know if you think that offshore readiness is a matter of opinion, don't take my word for it. For pottering about the gulf islands, well I've had a heck of a lot of fun in all sorts of tubs, and always noted that the smaller the boat the more the usage. It's partially a matter of scale, tho local hazards still dictate basic readiness for any potentiality in such a dynamic environment as the ocean. Alex Blah blah| 12131|12108|2006-12-05 19:54:07|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Thanks for that insight I was under the thinking that someone building a boat had experiance with boats already rather then just getting up one day and getting a wild hair. I would hate to think someone spends the time and money to find out they only like it when the weather is fair. Jon > > Greg - welcome back! and I sure hope you manage to sell your boat > with a profit ;-) but: > I think that advising people to buy a second hand boat rather than to > build one, for example from alloy, which was what you advised not so > long ago... ;-) should not be seen as an alternative to building, > rather as a different initial choice to make. > I am the first to advise people to go into a deep inside research if > what they want is really to BUILD a boat of if they want to HAVE a > boat, and - maybe not always but in many cases - there are easier and > cheaper ways to HAVE one than to spend years of your life to build it. > > The wish to build contains a lot of other things, self realization, > the building and the length of the project, what it does to you and > your life and so on, and I think that as much as the resulting boat > accounts for the original decision to build. > > But if this is not something that you really actively WANT to go > through, better buy second hand and go sailing now. Actually, I just > bought a dirt cheap 8 m steel boat in Holland to go sailing during my > holidays next summer, will introduce the family to sailing and keep > the motivation for the building of our Yago for the rest of the year. > (a 1973 "snekermeer", there are lots of them around, for the price of > 2 weeks charter...) So, why not do both, build AND sail, buy a small > thing to potter around in and build the real one with "lots" of time > and without frustration? I am sure that the day I will launch my > Yago, the little reserve, or even some equipment from selling the > small one will come in handy, nothing lost there. > > Your proposition of buying a finished boat to live on board and work > until > it's paid off, is something that I personally would not want to do, > except for extremely short periods. > Having to work off 40 K at the rate of 1 K per month, would mean that > I have to live on the boat and work in town for 40 month plus > interests.. Now, even if people are in a position to do so (get the > loan, have a job that would allow that...) I found that living > on a boat all year round to go to work in the city is very difficult. > I did it for about a year, but on my own, and there were > about half a dozen couples in the old port in La Rochelle trying to > do the same. At least they were couples when they moved on board.. > not one of them outlasted the year, either they split or they moved > back ashore. > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > | 12133|12108|2006-12-05 21:24:25|Gerd|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > Thanks for that insight I was under the thinking that someone > building a boat had experiance with boats already rather then just > getting up one day and getting a wild hair. Jon, I have another piece of standard advise that I never manage to get across: It's the 10 percent rule. I have talked to lots of people that want to leave it all and go live on the big deep, and want to buy or build their "perfect" boat. I always advise them to take 10 percent of their planned budget and to spend it on skippered berth charter and offshore cruisng schools, go sailing in real tough areas and off season, and on as many different boats as ony possible, modern, classic, multihull. And only after that decide what boat they want. I think they will always get a better boat and probably save money as well. I don't know why, but they always explain to me that they don't have the money for that, and always fall for the wrong boat, the one that they read this nice book about, or the one that somebody explained to them that it's the only true cruising yacht because (..insert about any bullshit here). It's sad sometimes. Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 12134|12108|2006-12-05 23:02:38|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I can skip that I enjoy lake sailing but not ocean living on the Columbia River in the great NW USA I am building a sternwheeler. This one is wood the next will be steel and other then sail boats this group has a lot to offer on systems and herdwear as well as building with steel for what evertype boat. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" > wrote: > > > > Thanks for that insight I was under the thinking that someone > > building a boat had experiance with boats already rather then just > > getting up one day and getting a wild hair. > > Jon, I have another piece of standard advise that I never manage to get > across: It's the 10 percent rule. > I have talked to lots of people that want to leave it all and go live > on the big deep, and want to buy or build their "perfect" boat. > > I always advise them to take 10 percent of their planned budget and to > spend it on skippered berth charter and offshore cruisng schools, go > sailing in real tough areas and off season, and on as many different > boats as ony possible, modern, classic, multihull. And only after that > decide what boat they want. I think they will always get a better boat > and probably save money as well. > > I don't know why, but they always explain to me that they don't have > the money for that, and always fall for the wrong boat, the one that > they read this nice book about, or the one that somebody explained to > them that it's the only true cruising yacht because (..insert about any > bullshit here). > > It's sad sometimes. > > Gerd > http://www.yago-project.com > | 12135|12108|2006-12-06 04:51:01|sae140|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > I also think there's a middle path ... I also think there's a middle way between building and non-building which could be described as a "co-operative build", i.e. a structured building scenario where tyros can work alongside experienced amateurs during the hull construction process. Thinking: a) a more-or-less permanent site would facilitate transport issues, steel delivery etc., as well as a place to stockpile materials and house essential plant. b) easier to plan ahead to ensure multiple hands on site for the more demanding stages. c) each new origami build is, for most people, essentially a custom build requiring a steep learning curve which is repeated over and over again for each new builder. Wouldn't it make far more sense to pay someone, like Brent or Evan, to supervise, lead, or simply be on hand during the initial build process ? Colin| 12137|12108|2006-12-06 14:14:08|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|The majority of owners have hired me , Evan, Ken orJesse to work with them to get the basic shell together in a week or two. We sometimes drop in later to jump start them on the detail. Many people are intimidated by the hull and want to buy the bare hull. I tell them to buy a load of steel and we can put a hull and decks together in a couple of weeks, far less time and trouble than it takes to find a hull, negotiate and move it.The hull is usually the quickest and most interesting part of the project. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > > I also think there's a middle path ... > > > > I also think there's a middle way between building and non-building > which could be described as a "co-operative build", i.e. a structured > building scenario where tyros can work alongside experienced amateurs > during the hull construction process. > > Thinking: > a) a more-or-less permanent site would facilitate transport issues, > steel delivery etc., as well as a place to stockpile materials and > house essential plant. > b) easier to plan ahead to ensure multiple hands on site for the more > demanding stages. > c) each new origami build is, for most people, essentially a custom > build requiring a steep learning curve which is repeated over and > over again for each new builder. > Wouldn't it make far more sense to pay someone, like Brent or Evan, > to supervise, lead, or simply be on hand during the initial build > process ? > > Colin > | 12138|12108|2006-12-06 14:51:43|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Most boats I've seen built by conscientious amateurs are far better boats than so called "Profesionally built " boats. "Profesionally built" means built by someone with fiancial stake in cutting every corner possible, and skimping on material wherever possible, and many years of experience in doing so. When thousands of boats are being built , saving a couple of ounces of material on each one can add up to a lot of money. For the one off amateur , a bit of beefing up here or there doesn't amount to much, money wise. The professional has only money at stake, the amateur has his life and the lives of his family and crew at stake, a far greater incentive to get it right. Most of the so called "Professionally built " boats in BC ( Folkes,Fehr , Amazon),were built of ten guage steel welded one side only and most of the weld ground off for cosmetic reasons. They were unpainted bare steel with millscale on the inside ,foamed over. They have a horrendous reputation for rusting from the inside out. Many have flimsey plastic thru hulls which can be broken off by heavy gear shifting in a rough sea.Some have fuel tank vents in the topsides which go underwater whenever the boat heels enough.Angle iron stringers were welded with both legs of the angle on the hull plate, making an inaccessible rust trap below them and drastically reducing their structural strength. I met a Kiwi , who told me his friend bought a "Proffessionally built " Amazon. The contract specified 2 inch welds every 6 inches to hold the stringers in. He found out that he had a half inch tack every 3 feet. When he finally caught up with the builder and handed him a court summons , the builder simply folded up the business. Another friend just wanted a abre hull. Amazon insisted on putting the primer on. He soon found out why. When he blasted the hull he found it had a thick layer of filler . what he wanted was a fair hull. Eric Hiscock had similar experiences with so called "Professional Dutch steel boatbuilders." They put a layer of 1 inch plywood over his decks followed by 1 inch solid teak, an incredibly stupid thing for anyone to do let alone a so calle d"Professional". Professionally built often means built with a style over substance set of priorities. Style sells quicker than substance. People swoon over the fairness of a locally built 45 footer . What they are swooning over is several 45 gallon drums of filler.Very proffesional! Any one looking to buy a boat for offshore cruising would be far wiser to look for a boat built by an intelligent,resourceful amateur builder who intended to use the boat for himself, and his family. When someone builds my design . I'm quick to answer any questions he or she may have , as I've demonstrated here giving them access to my 33 years of offshore experieand decades of boatbuilding experience. On the coast I often drop in with suggestions. If they get sarcastic or act like a cross between a hooker and a computer(Fuckin know it all) Then they are on their own. most are happy to dicuss the pros and cons of any ideas they come up with. most boats ended upo far better boats than any so called "Professional yard" has been building on the coast. Building their own boats leaves them with skills that will be usefull for the rest of their lives especially on the cruisin grounds. One client was chronically umnempoyed , and built his boat largely on unemployment insurance ( a UIC 36) He put enough hours of welding in to get a basic welding ticket, which got him a welding job , which enabled him to upgrade from time to time until he got on a pulp mill shutdown team making mega bucks. The boatbuilding project was the door to opportunity, something that buying a boat would never have given him. Suzi did sommething similar, after building her boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In general, amateurs that build successful boats start from a point of > experience with other boats. It is hard to build a successful boat the > first time without this experience - you will make mistakes and not know > they are mistakes. Brent and Alex for example, both had this experience > before they started building. > > > > If you want to go sailing, are short on experience because you don't have a > boat, and short of money, start with a good used boat. Rather than pouring > money down the drain in rent, put it in your pocket. Yes, you will pay > interest, but much of it you will keep. Otherwise, you will lose it all to > the landlord. Use this money to buy your first boat. Use the first boat to > get the experience and money to pay for building the second. > > > > There is more to building a boat than the construction. You need experience > and you need money. If you study successful amateur builders, you will find > that this formula is one that works. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:38 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > So why are you here this is a sight for those interested in building > boats not buying one someone else built. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of > this to > > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in > rent. > > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the > very first > > day. > > > > > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for > materials I > > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most > builders > > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and > can be > > yours the same way: > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > agic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12139|12108|2006-12-06 16:34:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Hi Alex, I very much like the strategy of living aboard one boat and saving the rent to help pay for building the second. The rent savings pay to build the second boat. After you are finished, sell the first boat to fill the cruising kitty. The alloy cat I sailed on last year in PI was built that way. The owner rented out his house while he lived on the first boat and used the rent to help pay to build the second. Once completed, he scavenged the first yacht to outfit the second and then sold the first boat to fill the kitty. The first boat doesn't need to be a high priced "yacht", especially if you are using it for live-aboard and to gain local experience. My recommendation would be to look for a basically sound older boat in need of cosmetic work. For buyers without experience, get professional help. Not all surveyors are equal. If you cannot tell if a yacht is sound, you likely do not yet have enough experience to be building. In any case, even a turnkey boat, I would expect to refit before I went offshore. One of the costs often underestimated for offshore is the extra gear. Start adding in navigation, epirb, life-raft, radios, tools, extra anchors, line, chain, spares, etc, etc and you can quickly double the price of a basic boat. This can explain the price for "turnkey" offshore boats. Not everyone "needs" all this gear. However, this is changing. As more women and children join cruising boats safety becomes a bigger issue. Some countries no longer allow their boats to clear out without this gear. There is talk of applying these standards to visiting yachts. Most offshore rallies will not allow you to enter with a fairly extensive array of gear. Location is important when buying. I bought a yacht in Florida and trucked it up to Vancouver. Another I bought in Hawaii and moved aboard. Other people have bought in remote locations and had the boats delivered. You can also often pick up well built amateur boats for a good price. The Bones and the BS36 in Fiji are both about $2 pound displacement. It is hard to buy anything for that price - even steel once it is blasted, painted and foamed. Most builders would be hard pressed to duplicate the boats for that price - even with thousands of hours of free labor thrown in. Add in a bunch of cruising gear and there is no way. This doesn't mean one shouldn't build. It is a great feeling and one well worth the effort and challenge. However, when you start building a boat, you want to have everything at hand to ensure you will succeed. An "inexperienced" boater often does not have the tools. They lack knowledge. They often lack funds. There is no boat to use to gain practical experience. There is no boat they can move aboard to save rent. There is no boat to sell to get money to go cruising. These costs must come out of their own pocket. In the end, they will eventually pay for every mistake they make. They end up building using their wallet rather then their head. Much better to build using the landlord's wallet! Best wishes for the holidays, Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 4:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update It's true, I'm drawing on experience from other boats, still wishing I had a little more experience in fact, but winging it anyway. I also think there's a middle path -- that one couple bought a Saugeen Witch and then kind of "Brentified" it to suit their needs, living on it for years while they saved. They got it cheap then invested a small amount to make it more suited to living aboard (pilot house) in this climate. That boat served them extremely well until they were ready to build, and they didn't move off it until the BS 36 was completely ready. Excellent strategy, which I promptly ignored (and I've paid for it!). There are many ways to approach the goal of setting sail in a sustainable way, let's ponder and appreciate all the angles or "tacks" we can take to round that elusive "headland" called "the cruising life." And may we recognize that each approach will be uniquely attuned to the person's means, personal abilities and expectations. Beyond the logistical challenge of actually arranging one's life to build a boat (plus gather the knowledge, experience, skills, etc to actually finish it), there remains one fairly solid piece of evidence to cling to in all this: It can generally be stated, and feel free to add in your own figures, that you can build one of these boats for between $30,000 at the utility low end (super-duper scrounge master, rebuild your own engine that you got for almost free, etc), to $65,000 for the gold-plater. I've scanned boat ads for offshore vessels that are NOT in need of refit, just ready to go turnkey boats, and I'm seeing them run at $99,000 to $130,000. Don't forget to factor in the refit if you want a boat with equivalent ability -- you can't ignore that because it is indeed a life or death issue. It's either ready for offshore, or it isn't, and mother nature will let you know if you think that offshore readiness is a matter of opinion, don't take my word for it. For pottering about the gulf islands, well I've had a heck of a lot of fun in all sorts of tubs, and always noted that the smaller the boat the more the usage. It's partially a matter of scale, tho local hazards still dictate basic readiness for any potentiality in such a dynamic environment as the ocean. Alex Blah blah [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12140|12108|2006-12-06 17:48:01|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Lazy Bones Update|A good credit rating costs nothing. Open a bank account, take out a no-fee credit card, and pay it off every month. If you need cash while cruising, the credit card will come in handy. There is plenty of free information on the Internet, usually sold as "no money down" real-estate. Ignore the hype, save your money. There is no need to buy the book. The techniques are simple and can be applied to boats just as well as houses. We went cruising for the better part of 20 years by doing this. For example, for someone without any credit, one way to buy is "rent to purchase". Write a contract with the seller. You agree to pay for the boat over time, at which time you become the legal owner. If you don't make the payments - the buyer still owns the boat and can sell it to someone else. The seller likes the deal. He gets the money the bank would have made on the deal - the "spread". Insurance covers him if the boat is lost or damaged. From the buyer's point of view it is also a good deal. You don't need any credit. You move aboard and apply the money you were paying in rent to make payments on the boat. You end up owning a boat rather than simply pouring your rent money down the drain. An added bonus, you get sailing from day 1, rather than years down the road. It can be hard to save when your money goes into rent. You may never be able to save enough to build/buy so long as you are paying rent. This is one of many methods to get out from under this problem. Once you have a boat, experience, a place to live and money saved each month from the rent, you are in a much better situation to build. Buy/build using your head, not your wallet. Use the landlord's wallet instead. It legal, ethical, and gets you sailing day 1. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12141|12108|2006-12-06 19:43:48|David A. Frantz|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Good credit bad credit getting to involved in financing things can be come a huge burden. That burden can make it difficult to realize your other goals in life. I know this from personal experience. That doesn't mean to say it would be easy for me to live the way I do. The problem is that credit, here I'm talking significant debt like homes and autos, peels off more of your income than many realize. It is always better in my estimation to find ways to your goals that avoid the debt servicing. Being new to this forum I'm not sure the origami methods are the right avenue for me to follow. In fact I'm not even sure about a large ship. What I do know is that this approach is one of the few that gives me any hope at all. One of the others involves taking what amounts to a hull and rebuilding it. In any event I think one of the previous posters hit it right on the head when he suggested that one go out and experience boating, sailing and rough weather in whatever way you can before getting to deep into one of these endeavors. There would be nothing worst than building an excellent vessel and realizing that it is the wrong machine for your interests. Thanks Dave ge@... wrote: > > A good credit rating costs nothing. Open a bank account, take out a no-fee > credit card, and pay it off every month. If you need cash while cruising, > the credit card will come in handy. > > There is plenty of free information on the Internet, usually sold as "no > money down" real-estate. Ignore the hype, save your money. There is no > need to buy the book. The techniques are simple and can be applied to > boats > just as well as houses. We went cruising for the better part of 20 > years by > doing this. > > For example, for someone without any credit, one way to buy is "rent to > purchase". Write a contract with the seller. You agree to pay for the boat > over time, at which time you become the legal owner. If you don't make the > payments - the buyer still owns the boat and can sell it to someone else. > The seller likes the deal. He gets the money the bank would have made on > the deal - the "spread". Insurance covers him if the boat is lost or > damaged. > > >From the buyer's point of view it is also a good deal. You don't need any > credit. You move aboard and apply the money you were paying in rent to > make > payments on the boat. You end up owning a boat rather than simply pouring > your rent money down the drain. An added bonus, you get sailing from > day 1, > rather than years down the road. > > It can be hard to save when your money goes into rent. You may never be > able to save enough to build/buy so long as you are paying rent. This is > one of many methods to get out from under this problem. Once you have a > boat, experience, a place to live and money saved each month from the > rent, > you are in a much better situation to build. > > Buy/build using your head, not your wallet. Use the landlord's wallet > instead. It legal, ethical, and gets you sailing day 1. > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12142|12108|2006-12-06 22:32:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > For example, for someone without any credit, one way to buy is "rent to > purchase". Write a contract with the seller. You agree to pay for the boat > over time, at which time you become the legal owner. If you don't make the > payments - the buyer still owns the boat and can sell it to someone else. > The seller likes the deal. He gets the money the bank would have made on > the deal - the "spread". Insurance covers him if the boat is lost or > damaged. You must be joking. If I was a seller, I'd *never* agree to such an arrangement. The boat disappears over the horizon, the money stops coming in - what now, brown cow? Also, there's the time value of money. $40K in my hand now is worth a lot more than $40K paid to me over 5 or 10 years. Unless the purchaser was willing to compensate me for this plus pay for whatever insurance was needed to cover me in the event of a payment default, damage or loss of the vessel, I'd need my head read to agree to such a deal. OTOH I can see why the *purchaser* would think it was a great deal. PDW| 12143|12108|2006-12-07 15:34:25|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I have read the posts on buying a boat and while i would agree that some planing is required over planing can reduce the value of owning a boat not money wise but enjoyment wise. This may not be the best comparison but buying a boat is a bit like having children. Sit down and work out how much a child will cost up until the age of 18 and the end result could be the biggest birth control method used. I have three daughters the joy and rewards of raising them, plus the memories over the years can never be calculated in any way, in a much lesser way the work on a boat and the trips taken can never be valued in a financial sense. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12144|12108|2006-12-07 22:25:38|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|"Rent to own" deals are done everyday on a wide range of products. As you mentioned in your last sentence, there are terms that you would agree to as a seller. You are correct in your terms. The buyer pays the forward value, insurance, plus a damage deposit (down payment) as they would in any loan. As a buyer, I would negotiate these terms with you until we are both happy. In "rent to own" the title is not transferred until the last payment is made. This provides excellent protection for the seller. If the boat disappears, insurance pays the seller, and the police go after who ever took the boat for theft. There are similar solutions for damage and default. It is beyond the scope of this forum for me to try and provide all the details. They are available for free on the Internet and at your public library. "Rent to own" is not a solution for everyone - it is simply an example of what can be done. It takes discipline to do anything over time, be it build or buy. If you build without discipline, you have your time and money tied up in an incomplete boat. If you "rent to own" and you fail to make payments, you are no worse off than paying rent, and you have had the use of the boat to gain experience. Boats can be hard to sell. They can involve a great deal of money, and very few people have the ready cash. Typically a bank wants the boat to be near new, factory built, or they will not loan money. This is your opportunity as a buyer to write a deal on an older boat or a good amateur built boat. For example: Say someone is asking $50K for a boat. If you walk up with cash in hand, you may well get the boat for less, but few people have the cash. However, what if you tell the seller you will pay them the full 50K they are asking, plus interest, if they will help you finance the boat? What if the seller is moving ashore and will be renting? Or buying a house and making mortgage payments? In effect, you agree to help make the seller's payments for the next X years. In return he lets you use the boat, and over time you will own it. This is a deal that will work and as a seller I would agree to it. Better to have my mortgage paid for than sit around with a boat on my hands. Also, as a seller, nothing prevents me from selling my side of the deal to someone else for a lump sum down the road. The new "seller" would then receive the monthly payments, and would get the boat if the buyer was in default. These sorts of "cash flow notes" are bought and sold all the time. As a buyer, it works for me as well. My payments are no more than my rent, and will not increase, while my rent probably will. I am not out of pocket any money. I have the use of the boat now, and over time I will own it. Once I own the boat, the rent will stay in my pocket where I can use it to build another boat, or go cruising, or build a house - whatever I want. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > For example, for someone without any credit, one way to buy is "rent to > purchase". Write a contract with the seller. You agree to pay for the boat > over time, at which time you become the legal owner. If you don't make the > payments - the buyer still owns the boat and can sell it to someone else. > The seller likes the deal. He gets the money the bank would have made on > the deal - the "spread". Insurance covers him if the boat is lost or > damaged. You must be joking. If I was a seller, I'd *never* agree to such an arrangement. The boat disappears over the horizon, the money stops coming in - what now, brown cow? Also, there's the time value of money. $40K in my hand now is worth a lot more than $40K paid to me over 5 or 10 years. Unless the purchaser was willing to compensate me for this plus pay for whatever insurance was needed to cover me in the event of a payment default, damage or loss of the vessel, I'd need my head read to agree to such a deal. OTOH I can see why the *purchaser* would think it was a great deal. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12145|12108|2006-12-08 03:54:59|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I agree that it can make sense if the security of title is addressed. However, I can't see this working out cheaper for the purchaser than getting the money elsewhere, provided they have a decent credit record. In my case, one phone call to my finance institution would get me $50K without any problems, secured against the value of real estate I own, so they could care less about title or age on the boat. All they care about is whether I have sufficient income to make the payments and can they recover their loan if I stop paying. That means I'm a lot better off paying cash to the seller and getting a discount, unless the seller is going to provide me with better terms (ie a lot lower interest) than the finance institution. Which seems unlikely. The poorer the security and lower or harder to prove the credit rating, the higher the risk premium & interest rate. If you own no real property, different story. I fully agree about rent, tho. In my current case, I bought 3.5 acres of waterfront land, built a small hut on it in a week, had a builders power pole installed and lived there for 18 months while I built my house. I didn't move into the house until it was functionally complete - painted, floor finished, insulated etc. Saved myself a fortune in rent and had a strong motivation to get on with the job. Now I'm just putting the roof on a 16m x 13m x 4.2m high barn which will be a boatbuilding shed, fully out of the weather, 3 phase power, heat, water etc and only 20m from my house. Thing is, I *like* building things and I have the experience & tools to do it. Eventually some other lucky person will get the benefit of the infrastructure I've sweated over building, but they'll pay thru the nose for it and I won't be offering vendor finance. I'll be off somewhere living off either the invested capital or the rent :-) PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > "Rent to own" deals are done everyday on a wide range of products. As you > mentioned in your last sentence, there are terms that you would agree to as > a seller. You are correct in your terms. The buyer pays the forward value, > insurance, plus a damage deposit (down payment) as they would in any loan. > As a buyer, I would negotiate these terms with you until we are both happy. > > > > In "rent to own" the title is not transferred until the last payment is > made. This provides excellent protection for the seller. If the boat > disappears, insurance pays the seller, and the police go after who ever took > the boat for theft. There are similar solutions for damage and default. It > is beyond the scope of this forum for me to try and provide all the details. > They are available for free on the Internet and at your public library. > > > > "Rent to own" is not a solution for everyone - it is simply an example of > what can be done. It takes discipline to do anything over time, be it build > or buy. If you build without discipline, you have your time and money tied > up in an incomplete boat. If you "rent to own" and you fail to make > payments, you are no worse off than paying rent, and you have had the use of > the boat to gain experience. > > > > Boats can be hard to sell. They can involve a great deal of money, and very > few people have the ready cash. Typically a bank wants the boat to be near > new, factory built, or they will not loan money. This is your opportunity > as a buyer to write a deal on an older boat or a good amateur built boat. > > > > For example: Say someone is asking $50K for a boat. If you walk up with > cash in hand, you may well get the boat for less, but few people have the > cash. However, what if you tell the seller you will pay them the full 50K > they are asking, plus interest, if they will help you finance the boat? > What if the seller is moving ashore and will be renting? Or buying a house > and making mortgage payments? In effect, you agree to help make the > seller's payments for the next X years. In return he lets you use the boat, > and over time you will own it. > > > > This is a deal that will work and as a seller I would agree to it. Better > to have my mortgage paid for than sit around with a boat on my hands. Also, > as a seller, nothing prevents me from selling my side of the deal to someone > else for a lump sum down the road. The new "seller" would then receive the > monthly payments, and would get the boat if the buyer was in default. These > sorts of "cash flow notes" are bought and sold all the time. > > > > As a buyer, it works for me as well. My payments are no more than my rent, > and will not increase, while my rent probably will. I am not out of pocket > any money. I have the use of the boat now, and over time I will own it. > Once I own the boat, the rent will stay in my pocket where I can use it to > build another boat, or go cruising, or build a house - whatever I want. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:30 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > For example, for someone without any credit, one way to buy is "rent to > > purchase". Write a contract with the seller. You agree to pay for the boat > > over time, at which time you become the legal owner. If you don't make the > > payments - the buyer still owns the boat and can sell it to someone else. > > The seller likes the deal. He gets the money the bank would have made on > > the deal - the "spread". Insurance covers him if the boat is lost or > > damaged. > > You must be joking. If I was a seller, I'd *never* agree to such an > arrangement. The boat > disappears over the horizon, the money stops coming in - what now, brown > cow? > > Also, there's the time value of money. $40K in my hand now is worth a lot > more than $40K > paid to me over 5 or 10 years. Unless the purchaser was willing to > compensate me for this > plus pay for whatever insurance was needed to cover me in the event of a > payment default, > damage or loss of the vessel, I'd need my head read to agree to such a deal. > > OTOH I can see why the *purchaser* would think it was a great deal. > > PDW > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12146|12108|2006-12-10 15:40:52|dbourg2002|Re: Lazy Bones Update|New, sort of, member. Hello to all members. My name is Don and I have been a member-lurker- on this site for some time. I have been following this recent thread for some time and wish to add my newbe two cents worth. First a short bio: My wife and I are from the Canadian Prairies and would like to someday own our own cruising boat. In order to do this we have taken sailing courses to obtain our bareboat certification. Our next step is to charter boats for holidays. We intend to start with small boats doing coastal cruising and work our way up as our abilities grow. At some point we will have to take some bluewater training. We intend to do all this while living some 2000 miles away from the ocean with no prior ocean sailing experience. Once and only once we have the experience would I even contemplate building a boat for live- aboard. Every time we get on a different boat we notice things that make sense and some that seem poorly planned. I don't think that you need to be the ultimate salt before you build a boat but observation, analysis of what works and what dousn't on the boats you have been on should provide some guidance-we started a design file on what features are important to us. I do think that if you do not like building things a boat is an awfully big project to even contemplate starting. If, you are like me, you enjoy planning and building things, so the whole process would be satisfying. In short, I really can't think why one couldn't build their own boat with some thought put into it. If it is your dream-then and it's important to you then make it happen. By the way, what the heck is schedule 40 pipe? Google doesn't return any usefull info. Love this site and appreciate all the excellent insight from the members. Don| 12147|12108|2006-12-10 15:42:21|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|You are correct. The example I gave was for someone without credit. Credit gives you the power to negotiate better terms. You can get a better price, not by spending money, but by using money as a tool. Since it costs nothing to get good credit, why not? The "elite" in society, what makes them elite? They are trained to use money as a tool. Just as tools give humans an advantage in nature; it is this use of money as a tool that gives the elite an advantage in society. The rest of are trained as consumers. We are taught money is to spend. We rarely learn how to use it. We are rarely taught to use credit wisely. Money lending is wrapped in religious and racial prejudice, which clouds our view. This all helps keep us poor. We find it hard to believe there is any alternative. You don't need to be one of the "elite" to use their methods. You need only to educate yourself, move past your consumer conditioning, and use the same approach that rich people use. Stop thinking like a consumer! Want a boat? Buy plans, buy steel, buy tools, buy paint, buy, buy, buy. That is consumer mentality. A rich person rarely pays cash for a boat. The form a company and have someone else pay for the boat. In that way they stay rich. A poor person can do the same, even without credit. Write a contract and have your landlord pay for the boat. You will be sailing day 1, gaining experience, and building wealth to allow you to build your next boat, to go cruising, whatever you want. Better to build with your head than your wallet. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of peter_d_wiley Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 9:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update I agree that it can make sense if the security of title is addressed. However, I can't see this working out cheaper for the purchaser than getting the money elsewhere, provided they have a decent credit record. In my case, one phone call to my finance institution would get me $50K without any problems, secured against the value of real estate I own, so they could care less about title or age on the boat. All they care about is whether I have sufficient income to make the payments and can they recover their loan if I stop paying. That means I'm a lot better off paying cash to the seller and getting a discount, unless the seller is going to provide me with better terms (ie a lot lower interest) than the finance institution. Which seems unlikely. The poorer the security and lower or harder to prove the credit rating, the higher the risk premium & interest rate. If you own no real property, different story. I fully agree about rent, tho. In my current case, I bought 3.5 acres of waterfront land, built a small hut on it in a week, had a builders power pole installed and lived there for 18 months while I built my house. I didn't move into the house until it was functionally complete - painted, floor finished, insulated etc. Saved myself a fortune in rent and had a strong motivation to get on with the job. Now I'm just putting the roof on a 16m x 13m x 4.2m high barn which will be a boatbuilding shed, fully out of the weather, 3 phase power, heat, water etc and only 20m from my house. Thing is, I *like* building things and I have the experience & tools to do it. Eventually some other lucky person will get the benefit of the infrastructure I've sweated over building, but they'll pay thru the nose for it and I won't be offering vendor finance. I'll be off somewhere living off either the invested capital or the rent :-) PDW --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > "Rent to own" deals are done everyday on a wide range of products. As you > mentioned in your last sentence, there are terms that you would agree to as > a seller. You are correct in your terms. The buyer pays the forward value, > insurance, plus a damage deposit (down payment) as they would in any loan. > As a buyer, I would negotiate these terms with you until we are both happy. > > > > In "rent to own" the title is not transferred until the last payment is > made. This provides excellent protection for the seller. If the boat > disappears, insurance pays the seller, and the police go after who ever took > the boat for theft. There are similar solutions for damage and default. It > is beyond the scope of this forum for me to try and provide all the details. > They are available for free on the Internet and at your public library. > > > > "Rent to own" is not a solution for everyone - it is simply an example of > what can be done. It takes discipline to do anything over time, be it build > or buy. If you build without discipline, you have your time and money tied > up in an incomplete boat. If you "rent to own" and you fail to make > payments, you are no worse off than paying rent, and you have had the use of > the boat to gain experience. > > > > Boats can be hard to sell. They can involve a great deal of money, and very > few people have the ready cash. Typically a bank wants the boat to be near > new, factory built, or they will not loan money. This is your opportunity > as a buyer to write a deal on an older boat or a good amateur built boat. > > > > For example: Say someone is asking $50K for a boat. If you walk up with > cash in hand, you may well get the boat for less, but few people have the > cash. However, what if you tell the seller you will pay them the full 50K > they are asking, plus interest, if they will help you finance the boat? > What if the seller is moving ashore and will be renting? Or buying a house > and making mortgage payments? In effect, you agree to help make the > seller's payments for the next X years. In return he lets you use the boat, > and over time you will own it. > > > > This is a deal that will work and as a seller I would agree to it. Better > to have my mortgage paid for than sit around with a boat on my hands. Also, > as a seller, nothing prevents me from selling my side of the deal to someone > else for a lump sum down the road. The new "seller" would then receive the > monthly payments, and would get the boat if the buyer was in default. These > sorts of "cash flow notes" are bought and sold all the time. > > > > As a buyer, it works for me as well. My payments are no more than my rent, > and will not increase, while my rent probably will. I am not out of pocket > any money. I have the use of the boat now, and over time I will own it. > Once I own the boat, the rent will stay in my pocket where I can use it to > build another boat, or go cruising, or build a house - whatever I want. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of peter_d_wiley > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:30 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > For example, for someone without any credit, one way to buy is "rent to > > purchase". Write a contract with the seller. You agree to pay for the boat > > over time, at which time you become the legal owner. If you don't make the > > payments - the buyer still owns the boat and can sell it to someone else. > > The seller likes the deal. He gets the money the bank would have made on > > the deal - the "spread". Insurance covers him if the boat is lost or > > damaged. > > You must be joking. If I was a seller, I'd *never* agree to such an > arrangement. The boat > disappears over the horizon, the money stops coming in - what now, brown > cow? > > Also, there's the time value of money. $40K in my hand now is worth a lot > more than $40K > paid to me over 5 or 10 years. Unless the purchaser was willing to > compensate me for this > plus pay for whatever insurance was needed to cover me in the event of a > payment default, > damage or loss of the vessel, I'd need my head read to agree to such a deal. > > OTOH I can see why the *purchaser* would think it was a great deal. > > PDW > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12148|12108|2006-12-10 15:43:54|easysoftware99|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Hi Gerd, Great advice. All too many people decide to get a boat, without ever spending serious time aboard, and have little to compare it with. I've just come back from sailing with a potential owner for the Bones. He put down a 10% deposit, and went sailing for 2 weeks, and got to see every detail of the boat under a range of conditions. He has already sailed a large selection of boats, in many different locations. I would call him a very knowledgeable buyer. He understood right away why 10% made sense. A common thread I find in people cruising is that many people that build their boats, once they are sailing, are not satisfied with what they have built. They realize that this feature, or that feature, could be improved. As a result, they are often not comfortable cruising. They want to get back to building, so they can create the "perfect" boat. Much of this could have been avoided had they spent the time beforehand, sailing in other boats, to discover what works and what doesn't. Every person is an individual. I can tell you that X is the best way to do something - but really it is only the best way for me. Once you get on the water, you realize that one size doesn't fit all. Without this experience you can read all the books in the world, ask all the experts, you will be no further ahead. Put 10 experts in a room, you will get 20 opinions on the best way to do something. Experience in boats, before you build or buy. There is no substitue. regards, Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Jon, I have another piece of standard advise that I never manage to get > across: It's the 10 percent rule. > I have talked to lots of people that want to leave it all and go live > on the big deep, and want to buy or build their "perfect" boat. > > I always advise them to take 10 percent of their planned budget and to > spend it on skippered berth charter and offshore cruisng schools, go > sailing in real tough areas and off season, and on as many different > boats as ony possible, modern, classic, multihull. And only after that > decide what boat they want. I think they will always get a better boat > and probably save money as well. > > I don't know why, but they always explain to me that they don't have > the money for that, and always fall for the wrong boat, the one that > they read this nice book about, or the one that somebody explained to > them that it's the only true cruising yacht because (..insert about any > bullshit here). > > It's sad sometimes. > > Gerd > http://www.yago-project.com > | 12149|12108|2006-12-10 15:56:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Only a small, elite group of people have the thousands of dollars and spare time available to build. My first boat cost me $0, using a credit rating that cost me $0 to obtain. I was sailing day 1. This technique costs $0 to learn and $0 to use. Anyone can do it. Over time this technique provides the resources to build and go cruising - again without costing anything. There is absolutely nothing elite about "free, available to all". Better to build with your head than your wallet. As has been said many times on this forum, judge someone's advice by what it has done for them. In other words - do not judge advice by what others have to say - other people have their own agenda. My advice allowed me to start sailing without money, to cruise for the better part of 20 years, raise a family, and build wealth along the way. I am not one of the "elite". My family fought and died fighting fascism and intolerance, likely fighting alongside Brent's dad. I started poor. I simply followed what other poor people had done to build wealth, and applied this to boats and cruising. When you copy the poor, you end up poor. When you copy the poor that became wealthy, you build wealth. This provides the resources to build boats, to go cruising, whatever you want. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:10 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update I ,like many cruisers have never had 40K in my life . I've never had a bank loan and never paid a penny of bank interest in my life so don't have a credit rating. Are you suggesting that only the elite should be allowed to cruise? My father fought as war against that kind of thinking. Sounds like he missed a few. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of this to > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in rent. > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the very first > day. > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for materials I > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most builders > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and can be > yours the same way: > > > > http://www.origamim agic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12150|12108|2006-12-10 17:35:16|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Sun, December 10, 2006 15:37, easysoftware99 wrote: > Hi Gerd, > > As a result, they are often not comfortable cruising. They want to > get back to building, so they can create the "perfect" boat. Much of this > could have been avoided had they spent the time beforehand, sailing in > other boats, to discover what works and what doesn't. I really wonder how much this is them wanting the "perfect" boat and trying to build it "better" and how much is just the fact that they enjoy building more than cruising? Not saying that both don't happen, I just wonder how many people don't admit that they enjoy the build process more than the cruise process. Nothing wrong with that at all... do it if you like to build! > Every person is an individual. I can tell you that X is the best > way to do something - but really it is only the best way for me. Once you > get on the water, you realize that one size doesn't fit all. Without this > experience you can read all the books in the world, ask all the experts, > you will be no further ahead. And unless you can build several iterations, improving for your situation each time (which many can't, or don't want to do), then you're never going to have the "perfect" boat... Build it, or buy it, but enjoy it and get out there and do it! (yes, I'm one to talk :-)) Bruce -- Bruce C. Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 12151|12108|2006-12-10 23:03:11|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Lazy Bones Update|When you buy a boat people look at you as someone that bought a boat. When you build a boat and do a good job there is the personal pride as well as the aww and prase of others. To me the building and owening of something specal and unique stands above just throwing money for another boat in a thousand. Pride on all sides of the coin. As far as building a Sternwheeler it fills the needs I have in a boat and is easy to find at the dock (Not just another white boat). You can't buy a Sternwheeler just anywhere you have to build. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C. Dillahunty" wrote: > > > On Sun, December 10, 2006 15:37, easysoftware99 wrote: > > Hi Gerd, > > > > As a result, they are often not comfortable cruising. They want to > > get back to building, so they can create the "perfect" boat. Much of this > > could have been avoided had they spent the time beforehand, sailing in > > other boats, to discover what works and what doesn't. > > I really wonder how much this is them wanting the "perfect" boat and > trying to build it "better" and how much is just the fact that they enjoy > building more than cruising? > > Not saying that both don't happen, I just wonder how many people don't > admit that they enjoy the build process more than the cruise process. > Nothing wrong with that at all... do it if you like to build! > > > Every person is an individual. I can tell you that X is the best > > way to do something - but really it is only the best way for me. Once you > > get on the water, you realize that one size doesn't fit all. Without this > > experience you can read all the books in the world, ask all the experts, > > you will be no further ahead. > > And unless you can build several iterations, improving for your situation > each time (which many can't, or don't want to do), then you're never going > to have the "perfect" boat... > > Build it, or buy it, but enjoy it and get out there and do it! (yes, I'm > one to talk :-)) > > Bruce > > > -- > Bruce C. Dillahunty > bdillahu@... > http://www.craftacraft.com > | 12152|12108|2006-12-10 23:05:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Absolutely, there are builders, after they spend time on the water that find they don't like it nearly as much as they thought they would. The same applies to people that buy. Cruising is not for everyone. There is a hump, at about 6 months. You either get over it, or end up drinking in the bar, or sell the boat and go home. This provides are ready supply of boats at a good price, all set for cruising. Look for a cruising boat in locations where people end up, not where they start. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce C. Dillahunty Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 2:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update On Sun, December 10, 2006 15:37, easysoftware99 wrote: > Hi Gerd, > > As a result, they are often not comfortable cruising. They want to > get back to building, so they can create the "perfect" boat. Much of this > could have been avoided had they spent the time beforehand, sailing in > other boats, to discover what works and what doesn't. I really wonder how much this is them wanting the "perfect" boat and trying to build it "better" and how much is just the fact that they enjoy building more than cruising? Not saying that both don't happen, I just wonder how many people don't admit that they enjoy the build process more than the cruise process. Nothing wrong with that at all... do it if you like to build! > Every person is an individual. I can tell you that X is the best > way to do something - but really it is only the best way for me. Once you > get on the water, you realize that one size doesn't fit all. Without this > experience you can read all the books in the world, ask all the experts, > you will be no further ahead. And unless you can build several iterations, improving for your situation each time (which many can't, or don't want to do), then you're never going to have the "perfect" boat... Build it, or buy it, but enjoy it and get out there and do it! (yes, I'm one to talk :-)) Bruce -- Bruce C. Dillahunty bdillahu@peachbush. com http://www.craftacr aft.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12153|12108|2006-12-10 23:08:03|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > By the way, what the heck is schedule 40 pipe? Google doesn't return > any usefull info. > Don This was the third result when I Googled "schedule 40 pipe"; http://www.spiraxsarco.com/learn/modules/10_2_01.asp "Standards and wall thickness There are a number of piping standards in existence around the world, but arguably the most global are those derived by the American Petroleum Institute (API), where pipes are categorised in schedule numbers. These schedule numbers bear a relation to the pressure rating of the piping. There are eleven Schedules ranging from the lowest at 5 through 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140 to schedule No. 160. For nominal size piping 150 mm and smaller, Schedule 40 (sometimes called `standard weight') is the lightest that would be specified for steam applications. Regardless of schedule number, pipes of a particular size all have the same outside diameter (not withstanding manufacturing tolerances). As the schedule number increases, the wall thickness increases, and the actual bore is reduced. For example: A 100 mm Schedule 40 pipe has an outside diameter of 114.30 mm, a wall thickness of 6.02 mm, giving a bore of 102.26 mm. A 100 mm Schedule 80 pipe has an outside diameter of 114.30 mm, a wall thickness of 8.56 mm, giving a bore of 97.18 mm." The first result given below has a table of ID, OD and wall thicknesses, but it does not copy well. http://www.mcnichols.com/products/handrail/resources/pipeDimensionTabl e.html, The table below shows the outside (O.D) and inside (I.D) diameters, as well as the wall thicknesses for various pipe sizes. The dimensions vary according to the schedule thickness (40, 10, or 5). The most common is 40; the rarest is 5. For example, a 1-1/4 inch schedule 40 pipe size has a 1.660 inch O.D., a 1.380 inch I.D., and a 0.140 inch wall thickness. The wall thickness is the difference between the O.D. and I.D. divided by two {(1.66-1.38) / 2 = 0.140}. O.D., I.D., & Wall Thickness Dimensions For Given Pipe Sizes Pipe Size Schedule 40 Thickness Schedule 10 Thickness Schedule 5 Thickness O.D. I.D. Wall Thickness O.D. I.D. Wall Thickness O.D. I.D. Wall Thickness 3/4 1.050 0.824 0.113 1.050 0.884 0.083 1.050 0.920 0.065 1 1.315 1.049 0.133 1.315 1.097 0.109 1.315 1.185 0.065 1-1/4 1.660 1.380 0.140 1.660 1.442 0.109 1.660 1.530 0.065 1-1/2 1.900 1.610 0.145 1.900 1.682 0.109 1.900 1.770 0.065 2 2.375 2.067 0.154 2.375 2.157 0.109 2.375 2.245 0.065 2-1/2 2.875 2.469 0.203 2.875 2.635 0.120 2.875 2.709 0.083 3 3.500 3.068 0.216 3.500 3.260 0.120 3.500 3.334 0.083 3-1/2 4.000 3.548 0.226 4.000 3.760 0.120 4.000 3.834 0.083 4 4.500 4.026 0.237 4.500 4.260 0.120 4.500 4.334 0.083 6 6.625 6.065 0.280 6.625 6.357 0.134 6.625 6.407 0.109 8 8.625 7.981 0.322 8.625 8.329 0.148 8.625 8.407 0.109 *Table values are in inches *O.D. = Outside Diameter *I.D. = Inside Diameter In the UK most stainless pipe is described by Schedule. For galvanised pipe medium grade is more or less Schedule 40. Regards, Ted| 12154|12108|2006-12-10 23:11:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lazy Bones Update|By the way, what the heck is schedule 40 pipe? Google doesn't return any usefull info. >> Don, When I Googled, the third item was these people: http://www.mcnichols.com/products/handrail/resources/pipeDimensionTabl e.html Amongst other things it said this, "The table below shows the outside (O.D) and inside (I.D) diameters, as well as the wall thicknesses for various pipe sizes. The dimensions vary according to the schedule thickness (40, 10, or 5). The most common is 40; the rarest is 5. For example, a 1-1/4 inch schedule 40 pipe size has a 1.660 inch O.D., a 1.380 inch I.D., and a 0.140 inch wall thickness. The wall thickness is the difference between the O.D. and I.D. divided by two {(1.66-1.38) / 2 = 0.140}." Another item had this to say; Standards and wall thickness There are a number of piping standards in existence around the world, but arguably the most global are those derived by the American Petroleum Institute (API), where pipes are categorised in schedule numbers. These schedule numbers bear a relation to the pressure rating of the piping. There are eleven Schedules ranging from the lowest at 5 through 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140 to schedule No. 160. For nominal size piping 150 mm and smaller, Schedule 40 (sometimes called `standard weight') is the lightest that would be specified for steam applications. Regardless of schedule number, pipes of a particular size all have the same outside diameter (not withstanding manufacturing tolerances). As the schedule number increases, the wall thickness increases, and the actual bore is reduced. For example: A 100 mm Schedule 40 pipe has an outside diameter of 114.30 mm, a wall thickness of 6.02 mm, giving a bore of 102.26 mm. A 100 mm Schedule 80 pipe has an outside diameter of 114.30 mm, a wall thickness of 8.56 mm, giving a bore of 97.18 mm. Only Schedules 40 and 80 cover the full range from 15 mm up to 600 mm nominal sizes and are the most commonly used schedule for steam pipe installations. Hope this helps. Regards, Ted| 12155|12108|2006-12-11 15:26:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Agreed, a well built amateur boat can be the best choice for someone looking for a boat. Banks typically won't lend money to buy an amateur built boat and few people have the cash. As a result, you can often buy well built amateur boats for much less than a comparable factory boat. Here is an example of this. You could not build this build this boat for anything close to the asking price, as equipped and finished, even with thousands of hours of labor and years of your life thrown in for free. http://www.origamimagic.com/sale/interior_pic.htm Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:48 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update Most boats I've seen built by conscientious amateurs are far better boats than so called "Profesionally built " boats. "Profesionally built" means built by someone with fiancial stake in cutting every corner possible, and skimping on material wherever possible, and many years of experience in doing so. When thousands of boats are being built , saving a couple of ounces of material on each one can add up to a lot of money. For the one off amateur , a bit of beefing up here or there doesn't amount to much, money wise. The professional has only money at stake, the amateur has his life and the lives of his family and crew at stake, a far greater incentive to get it right. Most of the so called "Professionally built " boats in BC ( Folkes,Fehr , Amazon),were built of ten guage steel welded one side only and most of the weld ground off for cosmetic reasons. They were unpainted bare steel with millscale on the inside ,foamed over. They have a horrendous reputation for rusting from the inside out. Many have flimsey plastic thru hulls which can be broken off by heavy gear shifting in a rough sea.Some have fuel tank vents in the topsides which go underwater whenever the boat heels enough.Angle iron stringers were welded with both legs of the angle on the hull plate, making an inaccessible rust trap below them and drastically reducing their structural strength. I met a Kiwi , who told me his friend bought a "Proffessionally built " Amazon. The contract specified 2 inch welds every 6 inches to hold the stringers in. He found out that he had a half inch tack every 3 feet. When he finally caught up with the builder and handed him a court summons , the builder simply folded up the business. Another friend just wanted a abre hull. Amazon insisted on putting the primer on. He soon found out why. When he blasted the hull he found it had a thick layer of filler . what he wanted was a fair hull. Eric Hiscock had similar experiences with so called "Professional Dutch steel boatbuilders." They put a layer of 1 inch plywood over his decks followed by 1 inch solid teak, an incredibly stupid thing for anyone to do let alone a so calle d"Professional". Professionally built often means built with a style over substance set of priorities. Style sells quicker than substance. People swoon over the fairness of a locally built 45 footer . What they are swooning over is several 45 gallon drums of filler.Very proffesional! Any one looking to buy a boat for offshore cruising would be far wiser to look for a boat built by an intelligent,resourceful amateur builder who intended to use the boat for himself, and his family. When someone builds my design . I'm quick to answer any questions he or she may have , as I've demonstrated here giving them access to my 33 years of offshore experieand decades of boatbuilding experience. On the coast I often drop in with suggestions. If they get sarcastic or act like a cross between a hooker and a computer(Fuckin know it all) Then they are on their own. most are happy to dicuss the pros and cons of any ideas they come up with. most boats ended upo far better boats than any so called "Professional yard" has been building on the coast. Building their own boats leaves them with skills that will be usefull for the rest of their lives especially on the cruisin grounds. One client was chronically umnempoyed , and built his boat largely on unemployment insurance ( a UIC 36) He put enough hours of welding in to get a basic welding ticket, which got him a welding job , which enabled him to upgrade from time to time until he got on a pulp mill shutdown team making mega bucks. The boatbuilding project was the door to opportunity, something that buying a boat would never have given him. Suzi did sommething similar, after building her boat. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In general, amateurs that build successful boats start from a point of > experience with other boats. It is hard to build a successful boat the > first time without this experience - you will make mistakes and not know > they are mistakes. Brent and Alex for example, both had this experience > before they started building. > > > > If you want to go sailing, are short on experience because you don't have a > boat, and short of money, start with a good used boat. Rather than pouring > money down the drain in rent, put it in your pocket. Yes, you will pay > interest, but much of it you will keep. Otherwise, you will lose it all to > the landlord. Use this money to buy your first boat. Use the first boat to > get the experience and money to pay for building the second. > > > > There is more to building a boat than the construction. You need experience > and you need money. If you study successful amateur builders, you will find > that this formula is one that works. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jon & Wanda(Tink) > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:38 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > So why are you here this is a sight for those interested in building > boats not buying one someone else built. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of > this to > > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in > rent. > > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the > very first > > day. > > > > > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for > materials I > > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most > builders > > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and > can be > > yours the same way: > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim agic.com/sale/lb39.htm> > agic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12156|12108|2006-12-11 15:26:58|Earl|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Hawaii is such a place. After the 2-3 week crossing, many of the boats are put up for sale and the owners return home by air. Earl ge@... wrote: > Absolutely, there are builders, after they spend time on the water that find > they don't like it nearly as much as they thought they would. The same > applies to people that buy. > > > > Cruising is not for everyone. There is a hump, at about 6 months. You > either get over it, or end up drinking in the bar, or sell the boat and go > home. This provides are ready supply of boats at a good price, all set for > cruising. Look for a cruising boat in locations where people end up, not > where they start. > > > > Greg Elliott > > | 12157|12157|2006-12-11 15:27:12|Scott Carle|Google results|for those of you searching google and getting different results it is because google runs off of thousands of servers in different parts of the world. depending on where you are geographicaly you will get slightly to wildy different results for the same search as your query will go to servers that are closer to you. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited| 12158|12108|2006-12-11 17:15:56|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Gibraltar and Spain are reputed to be another. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Earl wrote: > > Hawaii is such a place. After the 2-3 week crossing, many of the boats > are put up for sale and the owners return home by air. > > Earl > > ge@... wrote: > > Absolutely, there are builders, after they spend time on the water that find > > they don't like it nearly as much as they thought they would. The same > > applies to people that buy. > > > > > > > > Cruising is not for everyone. There is a hump, at about 6 months. You > > either get over it, or end up drinking in the bar, or sell the boat and go > > home. This provides are ready supply of boats at a good price, all set for > > cruising. Look for a cruising boat in locations where people end up, not > > where they start. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > | 12159|12108|2006-12-11 18:35:12|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 09:48:15PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Gibraltar and Spain are reputed to be another. Ditto for Venezuela - although the reasons tend to be slightly different. People "run out of time" there because they're taking a year-long sabbatical and they've been "following a schedule" - which is quite an efficient way of committing suicide while at sea. I spent seven years cruising, mostly in the Caribbean, and only referred to a time piece when I wanted to make a log entry, or for some other ship-related function. Mostly, my response to "what time is it?" (usually asked by a tourist) was "summer" (or whatever season is happened to be.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12160|12108|2006-12-13 23:50:55|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|We bought the Bones in Hawaii. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Earl Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 7:33 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update Hawaii is such a place. After the 2-3 week crossing, many of the boats are put up for sale and the owners return home by air. Earl ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > Absolutely, there are builders, after they spend time on the water that find > they don't like it nearly as much as they thought they would. The same > applies to people that buy. > > > > Cruising is not for everyone. There is a hump, at about 6 months. You > either get over it, or end up drinking in the bar, or sell the boat and go > home. This provides are ready supply of boats at a good price, all set for > cruising. Look for a cruising boat in locations where people end up, not > where they start. > > > > Greg Elliott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12161|12157|2006-12-13 23:51:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: Google results|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote: > > for those of you searching google and getting different results it is because google runs off of thousands of servers in different parts of the world. depending on where you are geographicaly you will get slightly to wildy different results for the same search as your query will go to servers that are closer to you. That's interesting Scott. I had noticed that googling the same words on subsequent days gets different results. Regards, Ted| 12162|12108|2006-12-13 23:53:15|Jim Burgoyne|Re: Lazy Bones Update|> Ditto for Venezuela And for Phuket/Langkawi. Many cruisers get this far, the novelty has worn off, and they are faced with choosing between the hazards of the Cape of Good Hope and the perceived dangers of the Red Sea and the costs of the Med. It's not as much fun as it was. Most do carry on, but some don't. It's also a touch of heaven here, so why not stay? I admire folks who can build a yacht in two weeks. It ain't me. I suppose I could be cheated by a builder without being aware, but that goes for a lot of professionals including doctors and lawyers. I won't lose sleep about it, but I will stick to unpainted alloy. cheers| 12163|12163|2006-12-14 02:46:21|Alex Christie|steel primer rust007|Anyone else seen this primer before? I just had a look at it on an unfinished Swain hull I checked out locally and it's super tough. The hull had been exposed to weather for several years with this stuff and it had a very nice tough finish, can't really scratch it. Reddish coloured, water-based for easy clean-up yet is designed for continuous immersion http://www.rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm Alex| 12164|12157|2006-12-14 14:01:45|audeojude|Re: Google results|Yep.. even from the same location you will get some variation.. not as much as if your geographicaly in a different location though. Depending on how much traffic/querys are being submitted at any given time they will route the querys to servers under the least amount of load. It bends my mind and this is what I do for a living. The scale they operate on is huge. March of 2003 someone estimated 150 million searches a day march 2006 Google accounted for 2.7 billion search queries with google accounting for as many searches as all the other search engines put together. Here is a article that gives a little perspective on how it works. http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/3487041 scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote: > > > > for those of you searching google and getting different results it is > because google runs off of thousands of servers in different parts of > the world. depending on where you are geographicaly you will get > slightly to wildy different results for the same search as your query > will go to servers that are closer to you. > > That's interesting Scott. I had noticed that googling the same words > on subsequent days gets different results. > > Regards, > Ted > | 12165|12163|2006-12-14 14:03:06|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|steel primer rust007|There is no mention on the website of use in the marine environment except: Q: Can RUST DESTROYER® be used under water constantly? A: No. RUST DESTROYER® can not be used under constant water submersion. Since the advertisement states that the product can be applied over rust without sandblasting, if you buy a hull with this on it, it probably was not sandblasted. --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12166|12163|2006-12-14 14:05:23|Peter Muth|Re: steel primer rust007|Alex, From reading the website for this primer, this looks like a really good product. I was wondering, when you say "continuous immersion", are you saying that it is possible with the appropriate top coat? The only thing that I found on the subject in their site was this Q/A in their FAQ. Have you seen any literature about immersion after top coating? Q: Can RUST DESTROYER® be used under water constantly? A: No. RUST DESTROYER® can not be used under constant water submersion. Thanks, Peter Alex Christie wrote: > > Anyone else seen this primer before? I just had a look at it on an > unfinished Swain hull I checked out locally and it's super tough. The > hull had been exposed to weather for several years with this stuff and > it had a very nice tough finish, can't really scratch it. Reddish > coloured, water-based for easy clean-up yet is designed for continuous > immersion > > http://www.rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm > > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12167|12157|2006-12-14 14:06:12|Frank McNeill|Re: Google results|Hi All, One reason why Google results change from day to day is that array of computers that count the hits on topics and arrange the order of topics so make popular topics closer to the top of the heap. I found a funny story about this on slashdot about some nut with an online store that wants to sue a blogger who has a higher rating. Go to: < http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/13/160241> for the story. Best wishes, Frank -- Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." - Winston Churchill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12168|12163|2006-12-14 15:33:02|Paul Wilson|Re: steel primer rust007|Hi Alex, I used a bit of it on a chainplate which I stupidly forgot to paint after sandblasting and have had no problems. That was well over ten years ago. You used to be able to buy it at Canadian Tire. I believe the Rust Destroyer is aliphatic (solvent) based while the Rust Knockout says it is water based. From what I have read, I think I would use Rust Bullet myself although I have had no experience with it. It is a lot cheaper than POR-15. Has anybody used it or POR-15 under the waterline with any success? Great group, Cheers, Paul -- Alex Christie wrote: > Anyone else seen this primer before? I just had a > look at it on an > unfinished Swain hull I checked out locally and it's > super tough. The > hull had been exposed to weather for several years > with this stuff and > it had a very nice tough finish, can't really > scratch it. Reddish > coloured, water-based for easy clean-up yet is > designed for continuous > immersion > > http://www.rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm > > Alex > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.| 12169|12163|2006-12-14 22:10:16|Alex Christie|Re: steel primer rust007|Hi Peter, I meant to link to Rust Knockout, which is recommended for underwater use but requires a topcoat : Q: Can your product be used under water constantly? A: YES! When properly top coated. Having just seen it on the hull of an unfinished boat located nearby, sitting in the rain for a few years with no topcoat, I was impressed. It looks as good as new. Would probably work as a topcoat too for topsides, then just overcoat the bottom of the hull for full underwater protection. It would make touch-ups dead easy, if you don't mind an ochre coloured boat :p Cheers, Alex On 14-Dec-06, at 10:03 AM, Peter Muth wrote: > Alex, > > From reading the website for this primer, this looks like a really > good > product. I was wondering, when you say > "continuous immersion", are you saying that it is possible with the > appropriate top coat? The only thing that I found on the subject in > their site was this Q/A in their FAQ. Have you seen any literature > about > immersion after top coating? > > Q: Can RUST DESTROYER® be used under water constantly? > > A: No. RUST DESTROYER® can not be used under constant water > submersion. > > Thanks, > Peter > > Alex Christie wrote: > > > > Anyone else seen this primer before? I just had a look at it on an > > unfinished Swain hull I checked out locally and it's super tough. > The > > hull had been exposed to weather for several years with this stuff > and > > it had a very nice tough finish, can't really scratch it. Reddish > > coloured, water-based for easy clean-up yet is designed for > continuous > > immersion > > > > http://www.rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12170|12108|2006-12-15 19:07:46|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Ditto for New Caledonia, Vanuatu and I'm told Panama. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 09:48:15PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Gibraltar and Spain are reputed to be another. > > Ditto for Venezuela - although the reasons tend to be slightly > different. People "run out of time" there because they're taking a > year-long sabbatical and they've been "following a schedule" - which is > quite an efficient way of committing suicide while at sea. > > I spent seven years cruising, mostly in the Caribbean, and only referred > to a time piece when I wanted to make a log entry, or for some other > ship-related function. Mostly, my response to "what time is it?" > (usually asked by a tourist) was "summer" (or whatever season is > happened to be.) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12171|12108|2006-12-15 19:19:21|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Rented out his is house? How many years of good cruisin time did he have to give up to own the house in the first place ?I first headed out to se a in my first boat , New Zealand bound ,at the ripe old age of 23.If I had waited to aquire a house first It would have taken much longer, And I'd have been as old as the rest of the old farts I met out there. One of the reasons I always have built my own boat was because I never wanted to settle for a boat like Lazy Bones. There's a hell of a difference between building what you want and settling for what someone else wanted. By not reading the book, you end up paying $3,000 for roller furling instead of $80. You end up paying up to $40 for each of your blocks instead of $2.You end up paying $12,000 for a proper sized watermaker instead of under $1,000 and get a much flimsier unit.You end up paying up to hundreds of dollars for hatches instead of under $50. The list goes on. If you are using living aboard one boat to make the payments while building another , where does the money for building the next boat as well as the cost of living while doing it ,come from? Your figures dont figure. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > > I very much like the strategy of living aboard one boat and saving the rent > to help pay for building the second. The rent savings pay to build the > second boat. After you are finished, sell the first boat to fill the > cruising kitty. > > > > The alloy cat I sailed on last year in PI was built that way. The owner > rented out his house while he lived on the first boat and used the rent to > help pay to build the second. Once completed, he scavenged the first yacht > to outfit the second and then sold the first boat to fill the kitty. > > > > The first boat doesn't need to be a high priced "yacht", especially if you > are using it for live-aboard and to gain local experience. My > recommendation would be to look for a basically sound older boat in need of > cosmetic work. > > > > For buyers without experience, get professional help. Not all surveyors are > equal. If you cannot tell if a yacht is sound, you likely do not yet have > enough experience to be building. In any case, even a turnkey boat, I would > expect to refit before I went offshore. > > > > One of the costs often underestimated for offshore is the extra gear. Start > adding in navigation, epirb, life-raft, radios, tools, extra anchors, line, > chain, spares, etc, etc and you can quickly double the price of a basic > boat. This can explain the price for "turnkey" offshore boats. > > > > Not everyone "needs" all this gear. However, this is changing. As more > women and children join cruising boats safety becomes a bigger issue. Some > countries no longer allow their boats to clear out without this gear. There > is talk of applying these standards to visiting yachts. Most offshore > rallies will not allow you to enter with a fairly extensive array of gear. > > > > Location is important when buying. I bought a yacht in Florida and trucked > it up to Vancouver. Another I bought in Hawaii and moved aboard. Other > people have bought in remote locations and had the boats delivered. > > > > You can also often pick up well built amateur boats for a good price. The > Bones and the BS36 in Fiji are both about $2 pound displacement. It is hard > to buy anything for that price - even steel once it is blasted, painted and > foamed. Most builders would be hard pressed to duplicate the boats for that > price - even with thousands of hours of free labor thrown in. Add in a > bunch of cruising gear and there is no way. > > > > This doesn't mean one shouldn't build. It is a great feeling and one well > worth the effort and challenge. However, when you start building a boat, > you want to have everything at hand to ensure you will succeed. > > > > An "inexperienced" boater often does not have the tools. They lack > knowledge. They often lack funds. There is no boat to use to gain > practical experience. There is no boat they can move aboard to save rent. > There is no boat to sell to get money to go cruising. These costs must come > out of their own pocket. > > > > In the end, they will eventually pay for every mistake they make. They end > up building using their wallet rather then their head. Much better to build > using the landlord's wallet! > > > > Best wishes for the holidays, Greg > > > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 4:17 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > It's true, I'm drawing on experience from other boats, still wishing I > had a little more experience in fact, but winging it anyway. > > I also think there's a middle path -- that one couple bought a Saugeen > Witch and then kind of "Brentified" it to suit their needs, living on > it for years while they saved. They got it cheap then invested a small > amount to make it more suited to living aboard (pilot house) in this > climate. That boat served them extremely well until they were ready to > build, and they didn't move off it until the BS 36 was completely > ready. Excellent strategy, which I promptly ignored (and I've paid for > it!). > > There are many ways to approach the goal of setting sail in a > sustainable way, let's ponder and appreciate all the angles or "tacks" > we can take to round that elusive "headland" called "the cruising > life." And may we recognize that each approach will be uniquely attuned > to the person's means, personal abilities and expectations. > > Beyond the logistical challenge of actually arranging one's life to > build a boat (plus gather the knowledge, experience, skills, etc to > actually finish it), there remains one fairly solid piece of evidence > to cling to in all this: It can generally be stated, and feel free to > add in your own figures, that you can build one of these boats for > between $30,000 at the utility low end (super-duper scrounge master, > rebuild your own engine that you got for almost free, etc), to $65,000 > for the gold-plater. I've scanned boat ads for offshore vessels that > are NOT in need of refit, just ready to go turnkey boats, and I'm > seeing them run at $99,000 to $130,000. Don't forget to factor in the > refit if you want a boat with equivalent ability -- you can't ignore > that because it is indeed a life or death issue. It's either ready for > offshore, or it isn't, and mother nature will let you know if you think > that offshore readiness is a matter of opinion, don't take my word for > it. > > For pottering about the gulf islands, well I've had a heck of a lot of > fun in all sorts of tubs, and always noted that the smaller the boat > the more the usage. It's partially a matter of scale, tho local > hazards still dictate basic readiness for any potentiality in such a > dynamic environment as the ocean. > > Alex Blah blah > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12172|12108|2006-12-15 19:27:18|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|When I started my boat I had $4,000 in the bank and an average anual income of around $1500. Does that make me "Elite" --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Only a small, elite group of people have the thousands of dollars and spare > time available to build. > > > > My first boat cost me $0, using a credit rating that cost me $0 to obtain. > I was sailing day 1. This technique costs $0 to learn and $0 to use. > Anyone can do it. Over time this technique provides the resources to build > and go cruising - again without costing anything. There is absolutely > nothing elite about "free, available to all". Better to build with your > head than your wallet. > > > > As has been said many times on this forum, judge someone's advice by what it > has done for them. In other words - do not judge advice by what others have > to say - other people have their own agenda. My advice allowed me to start > sailing without money, to cruise for the better part of 20 years, raise a > family, and build wealth along the way. > > > > I am not one of the "elite". My family fought and died fighting fascism and > intolerance, likely fighting alongside Brent's dad. I started poor. I > simply followed what other poor people had done to build wealth, and applied > this to boats and cruising. When you copy the poor, you end up poor. When > you copy the poor that became wealthy, you build wealth. This provides the > resources to build boats, to go cruising, whatever you want. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:10 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > I ,like many cruisers have never had 40K in my life . I've never had a > bank loan and never paid a penny of bank interest in my life so don't > have a credit rating. > Are you suggesting that only the elite should be allowed to cruise? > My father fought as war against that kind of thinking. Sounds like > he missed a few. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of > this to > > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in > rent. > > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the > very first > > day. > > > > > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for materials I > > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most > builders > > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and can be > > yours the same way: > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim > agic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12173|12108|2006-12-15 19:28:15|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|The navy has always got it's best sailors form the prairies. The agricultural economy there has always produced honest , practical,no bullshit , hands on type people who instantly see the shallowness and folly of "Style over substance " type thinking. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "dbourg2002" wrote: > > New, sort of, member. > > Hello to all members. My name is Don and I have been a member- lurker- > on this site for some time. > > I have been following this recent thread for some time and wish to > add my newbe two cents worth. > > First a short bio: My wife and I are from the Canadian Prairies and > would like to someday own our own cruising boat. In order to do this > we have taken sailing courses to obtain our bareboat certification. > Our next step is to charter boats for holidays. We intend to start > with small boats doing coastal cruising and work our way up as our > abilities grow. At some point we will have to take some bluewater > training. > > We intend to do all this while living some 2000 miles away from the > ocean with no prior ocean sailing experience. Once and only once we > have the experience would I even contemplate building a boat for live- > aboard. Every time we get on a different boat we notice things that > make sense and some that seem poorly planned. I don't think that you > need to be the ultimate salt before you build a boat but observation, > analysis of what works and what dousn't on the boats you have been on > should provide some guidance-we started a design file on what > features are important to us. I do think that if you do not like > building things a boat is an awfully big project to even contemplate > starting. If, you are like me, you enjoy planning and building > things, so the whole process would be satisfying. > > In short, I really can't think why one couldn't build their own boat > with some thought put into it. If it is your dream-then and it's > important to you then make it happen. > > By the way, what the heck is schedule 40 pipe? Google doesn't return > any usefull info. > > Love this site and appreciate all the excellent insight from the > members. > > Don > | 12174|12163|2006-12-15 20:54:30|Michael Casling|Re: steel primer rust007|I painted the cast iron keel with POR, liked it so much I painted the bottom. My boat is solid fibreglass. The POR dries nice and smooth. Used VC17 on top. Have a few pimples on the keel but I think that is from moisture in the filler I used. I have since painted another boat with it using the same filler. I have a better idea when the filler is dry now. No problems. Did the 28 foot boat about four years ago. It is in fresh water. Found POR folks to be user friendly. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Wilson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] steel primer rust007 Hi Alex, I used a bit of it on a chainplate which I stupidly forgot to paint after sandblasting and have had no problems. That was well over ten years ago. You used to be able to buy it at Canadian Tire. I believe the Rust Destroyer is aliphatic (solvent) based while the Rust Knockout says it is water based. From what I have read, I think I would use Rust Bullet myself although I have had no experience with it. It is a lot cheaper than POR-15. Has anybody used it or POR-15 under the waterline with any success? Great group, Cheers, Paul -- Alex Christie wrote: > Anyone else seen this primer before? I just had a > look at it on an > unfinished Swain hull I checked out locally and it's > super tough. The > hull had been exposed to weather for several years > with this stuff and > it had a very nice tough finish, can't really > scratch it. Reddish > coloured, water-based for easy clean-up yet is > designed for continuous > immersion > > http://www.rust007.com/destroyerhome.htm > > Alex > > __________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12175|12108|2006-12-16 00:26:19|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lazy Bones Update|North Queensland in Australia as well. People go north, sail the Barrier Reef then face heading south or going somewhere else. Lotta boats on the market in North Qld. PDW -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Ditto for New Caledonia, Vanuatu and I'm told Panama. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 09:48:15PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > > > Gibraltar and Spain are reputed to be another. > > > > Ditto for Venezuela - although the reasons tend to be slightly > > different. People "run out of time" there because they're taking a > > year-long sabbatical and they've been "following a schedule" - > which is > > quite an efficient way of committing suicide while at sea. > > > > I spent seven years cruising, mostly in the Caribbean, and only > referred > > to a time piece when I wanted to make a log entry, or for some other > > ship-related function. Mostly, my response to "what time is it?" > > (usually asked by a tourist) was "summer" (or whatever season is > > happened to be.) > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 12176|12176|2006-12-16 14:33:40|jfpacuas|Stick welding aluminum|Hi Folks, Anyone out there have much luck stick welding aluminum? I saw some 4043 rod at the store yesterday, bought it, and tinkered with it for a bit last night. I found the best (well, something that resembled a weld, anyway) results with DC reverse polarity (electrode positive) and 85 amps. I was working with 3/16" scrap of unknown alloy. Seems like I had to jam the rod into the base metal to get even a little bit of penetration. I wasn't impressed with my results, but I have heard it is tricky. I'll only have trivial amounts of aluminum to weld, but I would like it be reasonably strong. Anyone have any suggestions/tips? On a related note, I know Brent does small gas welds in aluminum. Does that work with oxypropane? Cheers Paul| 12177|12176|2006-12-16 15:16:14|Tom|Re: Stick welding aluminum|Hello Paul stick welding alum is tricky I found that welding in a flat position works ok but out of positions like verticle forget it, biggest trick is clean with stainless brush first Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jfpacuas" To: Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Stick welding aluminum > Hi Folks, > > Anyone out there have much luck stick welding aluminum? I saw some > 4043 rod at the store yesterday, bought it, and tinkered with it for a > bit last night. I found the best (well, something that resembled a > weld, anyway) results with DC reverse polarity (electrode positive) > and 85 amps. I was working with 3/16" scrap of unknown alloy. Seems > like I had to jam the rod into the base metal to get even a little bit > of penetration. I wasn't impressed with my results, but I have heard > it is tricky. I'll only have trivial amounts of aluminum to weld, but > I would like it be reasonably strong. Anyone have any > suggestions/tips? > > On a related note, I know Brent does small gas welds in aluminum. Does > that work with oxypropane? > > Cheers > > Paul > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12178|12176|2006-12-16 17:08:40|brentswain38|Re: Stick welding aluminum|Alum sticks are extremely hydroscopic. Leave them in a room and they will be dripping water in a few minutes if there is any moisure around. Best leave them against a hot lightbulb, or in a metal container with a hot lightbulb in it. They are very hard to strike and maintain an arc with, altho I've been told the Mexicans have much improved ones lately. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Paul > stick welding alum is tricky I found that welding in a flat position works > ok but out of positions like verticle forget it, biggest trick is clean with > stainless brush first > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jfpacuas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:44 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Stick welding aluminum > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Anyone out there have much luck stick welding aluminum? I saw some > > 4043 rod at the store yesterday, bought it, and tinkered with it for a > > bit last night. I found the best (well, something that resembled a > > weld, anyway) results with DC reverse polarity (electrode positive) > > and 85 amps. I was working with 3/16" scrap of unknown alloy. Seems > > like I had to jam the rod into the base metal to get even a little bit > > of penetration. I wasn't impressed with my results, but I have heard > > it is tricky. I'll only have trivial amounts of aluminum to weld, but > > I would like it be reasonably strong. Anyone have any > > suggestions/tips? > > > > On a related note, I know Brent does small gas welds in aluminum. Does > > that work with oxypropane? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 12179|12176|2006-12-16 18:05:06|Aaron Williams|Re: Stick welding aluminum|4043 is a cast aluminum grade and it will weld a little bit better but is very brittle and I dont think it should be used for marine applications. If you have a bracket that was cast aluminum try welding on it compared to 5052 grade or above. One of the guys I used to work with always said it was better a gas welding (brasing) rod than arc welding. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: Alum sticks are extremely hydroscopic. Leave them in a room and they will be dripping water in a few minutes if there is any moisure around. Best leave them against a hot lightbulb, or in a metal container with a hot lightbulb in it. They are very hard to strike and maintain an arc with, altho I've been told the Mexicans have much improved ones lately. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Paul > stick welding alum is tricky I found that welding in a flat position works > ok but out of positions like verticle forget it, biggest trick is clean with > stainless brush first > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jfpacuas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:44 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Stick welding aluminum > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Anyone out there have much luck stick welding aluminum? I saw some > > 4043 rod at the store yesterday, bought it, and tinkered with it for a > > bit last night. I found the best (well, something that resembled a > > weld, anyway) results with DC reverse polarity (electrode positive) > > and 85 amps. I was working with 3/16" scrap of unknown alloy. Seems > > like I had to jam the rod into the base metal to get even a little bit > > of penetration. I wasn't impressed with my results, but I have heard > > it is tricky. I'll only have trivial amounts of aluminum to weld, but > > I would like it be reasonably strong. Anyone have any > > suggestions/tips? > > > > On a related note, I know Brent does small gas welds in aluminum. Does > > that work with oxypropane? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12180|12176|2006-12-17 12:54:36|Mike|Re: Stick welding aluminum|Paul, et al: Though Lincoln makes two types of SMAW electrodes for welding cast & wrought aluminum alloys - ER4043(aluminum-silicon alloy) & ER5356 (aluminum-magnesium alloy) - The parameters involved in applying a sound weld, without detrimentally effecting the base metal porperties, are stringent(critical). If the piece that you want to weld is easily transportable, I'd suggest taking it to the local trade school & asking an instructor to perform the work for you. Otherwise, GMAW is the best approach, making sure that you use correct wire & shielding gas(es). Every weldment that you make on your boat is critical, whether above or below the waterline, as a weldment failure can create undue hardship at the most inopportune time, and immediate repair may be impossible. As a welder at Vancouver Drydock, I see mass amounts of money spent on ship & barge repairs. At the same time, I see many instances where the ship's owner/agent decides to limit the repairs - due to costs - and leaves with a ship/barge in less than seaworthy condition. Example: On one of our ferry refits, I was modifying/replacing the sundeck railings. Much of the existing structure which was to remain was rotten, therefore unsafe. Unable to get the point across to the B.C. Ferry Rep. & my company's engineer, I took my ball peen hammer and walked along the deck, applying moderate blows to the vertical stanchions. Of the first 10, I punched through 7. Though I was accused of trying to drag out the refit for the prospect of extended employment, my only concern was that people, especially kids, lean on, push against, bounce off of these structures, routinely, & a failure could have disasterous results. So, the handrail project was extended a few days. Go ahead, bounce off of them all you want. I guarantee the ones we replaced. The ones we didn't... My point being; if you are building a boat that you will sail in any adverse weather/sea state conditions, or keep for a decade (i.e. leave or sit at the dock), your pride of quality workmanship must take precedence over building costs. If you are unsure of any aspect of your build, pay a "professional" to look over it for you. When the present refit(Queen of Alberni) is finished, I intend to begin building my own "Swain 40", on my property in Prince George. If, during construction, I run into a dilemna regarding any construction aspect, I intend to bring in someone more knowledgeable, even if it means forking out the cash to have Brent Swain fly up to P.G. and set things straight. Quality workmanship on this method of construction not only results in a well-found marine vessel, but increases the public's general appreciation for these boats, resulting in higher resale values for all. None of us want this method of construction to go the way of the ferro-cements (Sampson, etc.) where each vessel must be considered a possible chicken-wire or unequal cement-setting disaster. Sorry for the long-winded, off-topic(?) post. If you believe that there is any risk involved in any aspect of your build, I'd recommend having a qualified shop/individual do the work for you, whatever the cost. When you are ready to drop your boat in the water, you want to be 100% sure that she is everything she should be. Either that or work hard on your backstroke. Mike P.S. If anyone is building in the Vancouver area, I would be happy to have a look & assist where needed - no cost involved. If I can't answer your questions, I know a lot of people who can. If someone wants to build a boat but has no welding skills, I am willing to teach them the fundamentals of SMAW at my shop in Ft. Langley, for the cost of material & rods. When not welding at the drydock, I work as a ship-fitter/welder, performing emergency ship repairs for various contractors(Meridian, MarineTech, ALLFLO Technologies, Grand Bahamas Shipyard, SMIT Marine, etc), in Canada & internationally. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Anyone out there have much luck stick welding aluminum? I saw some > 4043 rod at the store yesterday, bought it, and tinkered with it for a > bit last night. I found the best (well, something that resembled a > weld, anyway) results with DC reverse polarity (electrode positive) > and 85 amps. I was working with 3/16" scrap of unknown alloy. Seems > like I had to jam the rod into the base metal to get even a little bit > of penetration. I wasn't impressed with my results, but I have heard > it is tricky. I'll only have trivial amounts of aluminum to weld, but > I would like it be reasonably strong. Anyone have any > suggestions/tips? > > On a related note, I know Brent does small gas welds in aluminum. Does > that work with oxypropane? > > Cheers > > Paul > | 12181|12108|2006-12-17 13:23:28|Mike|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > "Most boats I've seen built by conscientious amateurs are far better > boats than so called "Profesionally built " boats. "Profesionally > built" means built by someone with fiancial stake in cutting every > corner possible, and skimping on material wherever possible, and many > years of experience in doing so. When thousands of boats are being > built , saving a couple of ounces of material on each one can add up > to a lot of money. For the one off amateur , a bit of beefing up here > or there doesn't amount to much, money wise. The professional has only > money at stake, the amateur has his life and the lives of his family > and crew at stake, a far greater incentive to get it right..." Well put, Brent! Words to live by. Mike| 12182|12108|2006-12-17 21:31:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Agreed, if you built your first boat, then fair enough that is what you should advise other people to do. However, my information is that you didn't build your first boat. You built only after losing your first boat, which isn't a track record to duplicate. When someone is giving advice, make sure they have actually followed their own advice. Otherwise it doesn't belong offshore. I've got nearly 50 years experience on the water with tons of cruising miles and have never lost a boat. There is a proven method to build a boat and go cruising. Buy first before you build. Move aboard, gain experience, save the rent to pay off the boat. You get sailing day 1 and get the boat paid for using money you would have simply poured down the drain in rent. It costs you nothing. Once the first boat is paid for, the rent savings pay to build the second. Once the second boat is complete, you sell the first boat to fill the cruising kitty. This is what we did, with variations. Someone else did the actual building of the "second" boat. We bought in a great offshore location, for about the cost of materials. In effect, we got the boat built for free. While I enjoy building, I enjoy boating a lot more. We also set up a corporation, bought a house, and lots of other things as well, so we could return from cruising with money, but those are advanced topics. Anyone that thinks I sat around saving to buy a house before I went sailing doesn't know me. I'm all for building, just be sure to do it with your head rather than your wallet. Few builders actually end up building a boat that they designed. They usually build someone else's design. They end up settling for what someone else wanted. When they do customize, they often end up with a mishmash, half one design, half another, with lots of trial end error along the way. At least when you buy you get to test the finished product beforehand. This substantially lowers the risk costs as compared to building. If the design isn't what you want, you can simply walk away without losing anything. I sailed with the Bones for years before I bought her. I knew her inside and out and had the experience to recognize that she was a well thought out design, proven many times over. Dollar for dollar, mile for mile, few if any boats can beat her. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update Rented out his is house? How many years of good cruisin time did he have to give up to own the house in the first place ?I first headed out to se a in my first boat , New Zealand bound ,at the ripe old age of 23.If I had waited to aquire a house first It would have taken much longer, And I'd have been as old as the rest of the old farts I met out there. One of the reasons I always have built my own boat was because I never wanted to settle for a boat like Lazy Bones. There's a hell of a difference between building what you want and settling for what someone else wanted. By not reading the book, you end up paying $3,000 for roller furling instead of $80. You end up paying up to $40 for each of your blocks instead of $2.You end up paying $12,000 for a proper sized watermaker instead of under $1,000 and get a much flimsier unit.You end up paying up to hundreds of dollars for hatches instead of under $50. The list goes on. If you are using living aboard one boat to make the payments while building another , where does the money for building the next boat as well as the cost of living while doing it ,come from? Your figures dont figure. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > > I very much like the strategy of living aboard one boat and saving the rent > to help pay for building the second. The rent savings pay to build the > second boat. After you are finished, sell the first boat to fill the > cruising kitty. > > > > The alloy cat I sailed on last year in PI was built that way. The owner > rented out his house while he lived on the first boat and used the rent to > help pay to build the second. Once completed, he scavenged the first yacht > to outfit the second and then sold the first boat to fill the kitty. > > > > The first boat doesn't need to be a high priced "yacht", especially if you > are using it for live-aboard and to gain local experience. My > recommendation would be to look for a basically sound older boat in need of > cosmetic work. > > > > For buyers without experience, get professional help. Not all surveyors are > equal. If you cannot tell if a yacht is sound, you likely do not yet have > enough experience to be building. In any case, even a turnkey boat, I would > expect to refit before I went offshore. > > > > One of the costs often underestimated for offshore is the extra gear. Start > adding in navigation, epirb, life-raft, radios, tools, extra anchors, line, > chain, spares, etc, etc and you can quickly double the price of a basic > boat. This can explain the price for "turnkey" offshore boats. > > > > Not everyone "needs" all this gear. However, this is changing. As more > women and children join cruising boats safety becomes a bigger issue. Some > countries no longer allow their boats to clear out without this gear. There > is talk of applying these standards to visiting yachts. Most offshore > rallies will not allow you to enter with a fairly extensive array of gear. > > > > Location is important when buying. I bought a yacht in Florida and trucked > it up to Vancouver. Another I bought in Hawaii and moved aboard. Other > people have bought in remote locations and had the boats delivered. > > > > You can also often pick up well built amateur boats for a good price. The > Bones and the BS36 in Fiji are both about $2 pound displacement. It is hard > to buy anything for that price - even steel once it is blasted, painted and > foamed. Most builders would be hard pressed to duplicate the boats for that > price - even with thousands of hours of free labor thrown in. Add in a > bunch of cruising gear and there is no way. > > > > This doesn't mean one shouldn't build. It is a great feeling and one well > worth the effort and challenge. However, when you start building a boat, > you want to have everything at hand to ensure you will succeed. > > > > An "inexperienced" boater often does not have the tools. They lack > knowledge. They often lack funds. There is no boat to use to gain > practical experience. There is no boat they can move aboard to save rent. > There is no boat to sell to get money to go cruising. These costs must come > out of their own pocket. > > > > In the end, they will eventually pay for every mistake they make. They end > up building using their wallet rather then their head. Much better to build > using the landlord's wallet! > > > > Best wishes for the holidays, Greg > > > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 4:17 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > It's true, I'm drawing on experience from other boats, still wishing I > had a little more experience in fact, but winging it anyway. > > I also think there's a middle path -- that one couple bought a Saugeen > Witch and then kind of "Brentified" it to suit their needs, living on > it for years while they saved. They got it cheap then invested a small > amount to make it more suited to living aboard (pilot house) in this > climate. That boat served them extremely well until they were ready to > build, and they didn't move off it until the BS 36 was completely > ready. Excellent strategy, which I promptly ignored (and I've paid for > it!). > > There are many ways to approach the goal of setting sail in a > sustainable way, let's ponder and appreciate all the angles or "tacks" > we can take to round that elusive "headland" called "the cruising > life." And may we recognize that each approach will be uniquely attuned > to the person's means, personal abilities and expectations. > > Beyond the logistical challenge of actually arranging one's life to > build a boat (plus gather the knowledge, experience, skills, etc to > actually finish it), there remains one fairly solid piece of evidence > to cling to in all this: It can generally be stated, and feel free to > add in your own figures, that you can build one of these boats for > between $30,000 at the utility low end (super-duper scrounge master, > rebuild your own engine that you got for almost free, etc), to $65,000 > for the gold-plater. I've scanned boat ads for offshore vessels that > are NOT in need of refit, just ready to go turnkey boats, and I'm > seeing them run at $99,000 to $130,000. Don't forget to factor in the > refit if you want a boat with equivalent ability -- you can't ignore > that because it is indeed a life or death issue. It's either ready for > offshore, or it isn't, and mother nature will let you know if you think > that offshore readiness is a matter of opinion, don't take my word for > it. > > For pottering about the gulf islands, well I've had a heck of a lot of > fun in all sorts of tubs, and always noted that the smaller the boat > the more the usage. It's partially a matter of scale, tho local > hazards still dictate basic readiness for any potentiality in such a > dynamic environment as the ocean. > > Alex Blah blah > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12183|12183|2006-12-18 04:06:30|sae140|Build vs Buy|One factor which seems to be overlooked in the "build vs buy second- hand" debate, is what happens if you want a steel boat with a relatively shallow draft which can take the ground regularly ? Building is the ONLY option. Colin| 12184|12108|2006-12-18 04:18:00|mickeyolaf|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Everyone chooses a different lifestyle. We all have goals. Even if we all had the same goal we would all get there our own way and no two routes would be the same. Those of us who choose to have families need to shelter those wive(s) and kids. The house usually takes precident over the long dreamed of boat. That's why you see the old farts out there. 30 years of dreaming and they finally made it. The wife's at work. The dog's dead and the kids are out. I'm one of them. By the way at 51 are u an old fart? Sure I've missed that cruise to New Zealand but I'm well travelled. We all make choices. Owning a house(s) has proven to be a very wise decision. I remember the $100,000 house. At the same time there were $100,000 boats. The house is now worth $750,000 and the $100,000 boat is now $80,000 or less. Let's say two men both want one of Brent's 36's. One builds it himself in his spare time. The other works full time and his spare time and days off and pays a professional to assemble his boat. In the end both pay the same in their time committed. And if both end up with the boat of their dreams is either one wrong? If u can afford the $40 block why not buy it. I paid $2200 plus tax for Harken furling gear for my 36. To earn that I would need to work three 12 hour double time shifts at my job. So 36 hours out of my life at a job I enjoy and the furling gear arrives in a box and a big tube. How many hours would it take for me to make the $80 furling gear? Would it work as well? Probably not if I built it. The Harken has a warranty, is really well made, looks strong and is well engineered. If it is easier and cheaper to buy it and earn $ with the time you would have spent building it should that method of equipping a boat be subject to criticism? It's interesting to read how critical some can be of others on this site. There seems to be an opinion among many that if u didn't build your boat or make the parts yourself you shouldn't be here. I originally thought this was a site for builders that also included owners of Swain designed boats, dreamers, bullshitters, and the like all of whom are interested in origami boats. My boat is being built in part by Andersen, Harken, Barton, Shaefer, Bomar, Geebo etc. Is it really wrong if I end up with the boat I want built the way I want it to be? It's taken about five years of OT but I will own it, not the bank. It will be really well equipped. The workmanship far exceeds what I could do especially the electrical. My wife is not pissed off that I spent family money on it because I didn't. So what's really wrong with my route in the end? It's the one I chose. I have a house, family, a new boat, 51 is young to a 70 year old, and I'm going cruising (and I am going to get a new dog). And yes Brent the hatch was hundreds of dollars. It was $550 wholesale. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Rented out his is house? How many years of good cruisin time did he > have to give up to own the house in the first place ?I first headed > out to se a in my first boat , New Zealand bound ,at the ripe old age > of 23.If I had waited to aquire a house first It would have taken > much longer, And I'd have been as old as the rest of the old farts I > met out there. > One of the reasons I always have built my own boat was because I > never wanted to settle for a boat like Lazy Bones. > There's a hell of a difference between building what you want and > settling for what someone else wanted. > By not reading the book, you end up paying $3,000 for roller furling > instead of $80. You end up paying up to $40 for each of your blocks > instead of $2.You end up paying $12,000 for a proper sized > watermaker instead of under $1,000 and get a much flimsier unit.You > end up paying up to hundreds of dollars for hatches instead of under > $50. The list goes on. > If you are using living aboard one boat to make the payments while > building another , where does the money for building the next boat as > well as the cost of living while doing it ,come from? Your figures > dont figure. > Brent > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > > > I very much like the strategy of living aboard one boat and saving > the rent > > to help pay for building the second. The rent savings pay to build > the > > second boat. After you are finished, sell the first boat to fill > the > > cruising kitty. > > > > > > > > The alloy cat I sailed on last year in PI was built that way. The > owner > > rented out his house while he lived on the first boat and used the > rent to > > help pay to build the second. Once completed, he scavenged the > first yacht > > to outfit the second and then sold the first boat to fill the kitty. > > > > > > > > The first boat doesn't need to be a high priced "yacht", especially > if you > > are using it for live-aboard and to gain local experience. My > > recommendation would be to look for a basically sound older boat in > need of > > cosmetic work. > > > > > > > > For buyers without experience, get professional help. Not all > surveyors are > > equal. If you cannot tell if a yacht is sound, you likely do not > yet have > > enough experience to be building. In any case, even a turnkey > boat, I would > > expect to refit before I went offshore. > > > > > > > > One of the costs often underestimated for offshore is the extra > gear. Start > > adding in navigation, epirb, life-raft, radios, tools, extra > anchors, line, > > chain, spares, etc, etc and you can quickly double the price of a > basic > > boat. This can explain the price for "turnkey" offshore boats. > > > > > > > > Not everyone "needs" all this gear. However, this is changing. As > more > > women and children join cruising boats safety becomes a bigger > issue. Some > > countries no longer allow their boats to clear out without this > gear. There > > is talk of applying these standards to visiting yachts. Most > offshore > > rallies will not allow you to enter with a fairly extensive array > of gear. > > > > > > > > Location is important when buying. I bought a yacht in Florida and > trucked > > it up to Vancouver. Another I bought in Hawaii and moved aboard. > Other > > people have bought in remote locations and had the boats delivered. > > > > > > > > You can also often pick up well built amateur boats for a good > price. The > > Bones and the BS36 in Fiji are both about $2 pound displacement. > It is hard > > to buy anything for that price - even steel once it is blasted, > painted and > > foamed. Most builders would be hard pressed to duplicate the boats > for that > > price - even with thousands of hours of free labor thrown in. Add > in a > > bunch of cruising gear and there is no way. > > > > > > > > This doesn't mean one shouldn't build. It is a great feeling and > one well > > worth the effort and challenge. However, when you start building a > boat, > > you want to have everything at hand to ensure you will succeed. > > > > > > > > An "inexperienced" boater often does not have the tools. They lack > > knowledge. They often lack funds. There is no boat to use to gain > > practical experience. There is no boat they can move aboard to > save rent. > > There is no boat to sell to get money to go cruising. These costs > must come > > out of their own pocket. > > > > > > > > In the end, they will eventually pay for every mistake they make. > They end > > up building using their wallet rather then their head. Much better > to build > > using the landlord's wallet! > > > > > > > > Best wishes for the holidays, Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Alex Christie > > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 4:17 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > > > > > It's true, I'm drawing on experience from other boats, still > wishing I > > had a little more experience in fact, but winging it anyway. > > > > I also think there's a middle path -- that one couple bought a > Saugeen > > Witch and then kind of "Brentified" it to suit their needs, living > on > > it for years while they saved. They got it cheap then invested a > small > > amount to make it more suited to living aboard (pilot house) in > this > > climate. That boat served them extremely well until they were ready > to > > build, and they didn't move off it until the BS 36 was completely > > ready. Excellent strategy, which I promptly ignored (and I've paid > for > > it!). > > > > There are many ways to approach the goal of setting sail in a > > sustainable way, let's ponder and appreciate all the angles > or "tacks" > > we can take to round that elusive "headland" called "the cruising > > life." And may we recognize that each approach will be uniquely > attuned > > to the person's means, personal abilities and expectations. > > > > Beyond the logistical challenge of actually arranging one's life to > > build a boat (plus gather the knowledge, experience, skills, etc to > > actually finish it), there remains one fairly solid piece of > evidence > > to cling to in all this: It can generally be stated, and feel free > to > > add in your own figures, that you can build one of these boats for > > between $30,000 at the utility low end (super-duper scrounge > master, > > rebuild your own engine that you got for almost free, etc), to > $65,000 > > for the gold-plater. I've scanned boat ads for offshore vessels > that > > are NOT in need of refit, just ready to go turnkey boats, and I'm > > seeing them run at $99,000 to $130,000. Don't forget to factor in > the > > refit if you want a boat with equivalent ability -- you can't > ignore > > that because it is indeed a life or death issue. It's either ready > for > > offshore, or it isn't, and mother nature will let you know if you > think > > that offshore readiness is a matter of opinion, don't take my word > for > > it. > > > > For pottering about the gulf islands, well I've had a heck of a lot > of > > fun in all sorts of tubs, and always noted that the smaller the > boat > > the more the usage. It's partially a matter of scale, tho local > > hazards still dictate basic readiness for any potentiality in such > a > > dynamic environment as the ocean. > > > > Alex Blah blah > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12185|12183|2006-12-18 14:22:25|peter_d_wiley|Re: Build vs Buy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > One factor which seems to be overlooked in the "build vs buy second- > hand" debate, is what happens if you want a steel boat with a > relatively shallow draft which can take the ground regularly ? > Building is the ONLY option. Not really. There have been over 700 Colvin Gazelles built. Always some for sale second- hand. They draw less than 4' of water, as designed. They're a full length shoal keel so can take the ground fine. They don't sit flat, tho. Over 150 smaller Witches built. Draft of 4'. Other than Tom & Brent, I can't think offhand of any other steel boat designers whose designs fit the bill. Kasten, maybe, but IMO a lot of his designs are Colvin influenced and quite heavily so but the plans cost a lot more. I've looked at quite a few steel boats and so far, 4 unfinished steel hulls. Only one of the unfinished hulls I would have bought but the owner wanted too much money for it; once you factored the cost of moving it into the deal, the economics can start looking real bad. My conclusion is, unless I find the proverbial gem for cheap, I'll build. PDW| 12186|12108|2006-12-18 14:31:30|P-O Gustafsson|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I agree with you Greg, there are other things than just boats in most peoples mind. We tend to have different agendas at different stages of life. For most of us the boat is a way to get a limited time of relaxation between other tasks. And if we didn't keep the wheels spinning and maintaining the infrastructure, it wouldn't be so easy for the few wanting to cruise most of their life to do so. Personally I been involved in a lot of things I wouldn't have exchanged for cruising. To create my own business, among other things, has given me much fun and allow me to build or buy the boat I want when I retire and sell off in a few years. I set out to build myself in steel. But the more I look into it the more doubtful I get. Partly because I'm getting to the age when the old body doesn't like too much physical activity anymore. But mostly because it doesn't look to be such a good economic alternative in Scandinavia where I am living most of the time. Too long winter and high cost of renting and heating a building to work in. It would be cheaper to let a boat yard in Baltic states do the job and I continue my work a couple of years longer to pay for it. I would love the challenge to buid my own boat, but prefer to spend winters in Thailand where I am now instead of crawling under a boat in minus 10 degrees in Sweden.... Enough ranting, just wanted to ask if someone else is in this parts during january. I'm going down to the south of Thailand and over to Lankawi and it would be fun to meet others with the same interest on the way. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden pogust@... http://beeman.se| 12187|12108|2006-12-18 14:33:46|Carl Anderson|Re: Lazy Bones Update|What a great letter to the group! We are taking a similar approach to building our BS 36. And starting the project as I turn 52 and my wife is 48 (another couple of old farts?) It is better for us to work our jobs & pay someone more experienced to build most of the boat. Also much faster to get it on the water and sailing. And really isn't that what its all about? (not the hokey pokey!) In the meantime if we need a sailing fix we go out on our little Catalina 22 (our starter sailboat) on the Great Salt Lake. And if anyone is interested I've started a page on the building of our BS 36. (more info later) Later, Carl mickeyolaf wrote: > > > Everyone chooses a different lifestyle. We all have goals. Even if > we all had the same goal we would all get there our own way and no > two routes would be the same. Those of us who choose to have > families need to shelter those wive(s) and kids. The house usually > takes precident over the long dreamed of boat. That's why you see > the old farts out there. 30 years of dreaming and they finally made > it. The wife's at work. The dog's dead and the kids are out. > I'm one of them. By the way at 51 are u an old fart? > Sure I've missed that cruise to New Zealand but I'm well travelled. > We all make choices. Owning a house(s) has proven to be a very wise > decision. I remember the $100,000 house. At the same time there were > $100,000 boats. The house is now worth $750,000 and the $100,000 > boat is now $80,000 or less. > > Let's say two men both want one of Brent's 36's. One builds it > himself in his spare time. The other works full time and his spare > time and days off and pays a professional to assemble his boat. In > the end both pay the same in their time committed. And if both end > up with the boat of their dreams is either one wrong? > If u can afford the $40 block why not buy it. I paid $2200 plus tax > for Harken furling gear for my 36. To earn that I would need to work > three 12 hour double time shifts at my job. So 36 hours out of my > life at a job I enjoy and the furling gear arrives in a box and a > big tube. How many hours would it take for me to make the $80 > furling gear? Would it work as well? Probably not if I built it. > The Harken has a warranty, is really well made, looks strong and is > well engineered. If it is easier and cheaper to buy it and earn $ > with the time you would have spent building it should that method of > equipping a boat be subject to criticism? > It's interesting to read how critical some can be of others on this > site. There seems to be an opinion among many that if u didn't build > your boat or make the parts yourself you shouldn't be here. > I originally thought this was a site for builders that also included > owners of Swain designed boats, dreamers, bullshitters, and the like > all of whom are interested in origami boats. > My boat is being built in part by Andersen, Harken, Barton, > Shaefer, Bomar, Geebo etc. Is it really wrong if I end up with the > boat I want built the way I want it to be? It's taken about five > years of OT but I will own it, not the bank. It will be really well > equipped. The workmanship far exceeds what I could do especially the > electrical. My wife is not pissed off that I spent family money on > it because I didn't. > So what's really wrong with my route in the end? It's the one I > chose. I have a house, family, a new boat, 51 is young to a 70 year > old, and I'm going cruising (and I am going to get a new dog). And > yes Brent the hatch was hundreds of dollars. It was $550 wholesale. > | 12188|12108|2006-12-18 14:35:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>> You end up paying $12,000 for a proper sized watermaker instead of under $1,000 and get a much flimsier unit. << The correct advice for anyone considering a watermaker is to recommend they install a good rain catcher and decent sized tanks instead. In nearly 20 years of cruising we have never needed a watermaker and it has never limited our travels. Watermakers are completely at odds with building a simple, reliable, low cost cruising boat. This is a technical issue, not a design issue. The membrane is a very sensitive, very pricey piece of high tech equipment that fails given the least excuse, typically at the worst possible time. Just about every cruising boat we know that has one has had problems to the point where they no longer use the unit. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12189|12108|2006-12-18 15:41:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|In today's dollars, you were one of the elite. A glass of beer cost 25 cents at that time. Now it costs $3+. At those prices, $4000 then would be $50,000 today - about what Alex said it costs to build today. Only a very elite few have $50,000 available to build. Today, $4000 probably won't even pay for the gas to drive around and shop for all the parts you need to finish a boat. Add to this the subsidized rent you got from your parents, the year you spent preparing to build, the parts salvaged from your previous boat, months/years spent finishing the boat after it was launched. There is a ton of hidden costs. Compare this to paying for a boat out of your landlord's pocket, using the rent money you simply would have poured down the drain, and it a no-brainer. You get sailing day 1 and build wealth, all without spending a $$. Better to build with your head rather than your wallet. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:25 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update When I started my boat I had $4,000 in the bank and an average anual income of around $1500. Does that make me "Elite" --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Only a small, elite group of people have the thousands of dollars and spare > time available to build. > > > > My first boat cost me $0, using a credit rating that cost me $0 to obtain. > I was sailing day 1. This technique costs $0 to learn and $0 to use. > Anyone can do it. Over time this technique provides the resources to build > and go cruising - again without costing anything. There is absolutely > nothing elite about "free, available to all". Better to build with your > head than your wallet. > > > > As has been said many times on this forum, judge someone's advice by what it > has done for them. In other words - do not judge advice by what others have > to say - other people have their own agenda. My advice allowed me to start > sailing without money, to cruise for the better part of 20 years, raise a > family, and build wealth along the way. > > > > I am not one of the "elite". My family fought and died fighting fascism and > intolerance, likely fighting alongside Brent's dad. I started poor. I > simply followed what other poor people had done to build wealth, and applied > this to boats and cruising. When you copy the poor, you end up poor. When > you copy the poor that became wealthy, you build wealth. This provides the > resources to build boats, to go cruising, whatever you want. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:10 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > I ,like many cruisers have never had 40K in my life . I've never had a > bank loan and never paid a penny of bank interest in my life so don't > have a credit rating. > Are you suggesting that only the elite should be allowed to cruise? > My father fought as war against that kind of thinking. Sounds like > he missed a few. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > My first yacht, I bought for $40K. I borrowed $44K and used $4k of > this to > > make the 10% down payment. I moved aboard and saved $1k a month in > rent. > > This paid for the boat plus interest. I was out sailing from the > very first > > day. > > > > > > > > Rather than spending months or years building and paying for materials I > > used my "spare" time to fill the cruising kitty. Long before most > builders > > have finished building the kitty was full and we were off cruising. > > > > > > > > We bought the Bones much the same way. She paid for herself and can be > > yours the same way: > > > > > > > > http://www.origamim agic.com/sale/lb39.htm> > agic.com/sale/lb39.htm > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12190|12108|2006-12-18 15:42:13|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Many of the long-time cruisers are on "E" dock at the Royal Langkawi, though many will have headed north to Phuket during December. The Bones is at Rebak (Langkawi), but I'm thousands of miles away in the snow. If you have a chance, by all means stop in at Rebak and give us a report. Greg _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of P-O Gustafsson Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 8:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update I agree with you Greg, there are other things than just boats in most peoples mind. We tend to have different agendas at different stages of life. For most of us the boat is a way to get a limited time of relaxation between other tasks. And if we didn't keep the wheels spinning and maintaining the infrastructure, it wouldn't be so easy for the few wanting to cruise most of their life to do so. Personally I been involved in a lot of things I wouldn't have exchanged for cruising. To create my own business, among other things, has given me much fun and allow me to build or buy the boat I want when I retire and sell off in a few years. I set out to build myself in steel. But the more I look into it the more doubtful I get. Partly because I'm getting to the age when the old body doesn't like too much physical activity anymore. But mostly because it doesn't look to be such a good economic alternative in Scandinavia where I am living most of the time. Too long winter and high cost of renting and heating a building to work in. It would be cheaper to let a boat yard in Baltic states do the job and I continue my work a couple of years longer to pay for it. I would love the challenge to buid my own boat, but prefer to spend winters in Thailand where I am now instead of crawling under a boat in minus 10 degrees in Sweden.... Enough ranting, just wanted to ask if someone else is in this parts during january. I'm going down to the south of Thailand and over to Lankawi and it would be fun to meet others with the same interest on the way. -- Regards P-O Gustafsson, Sweden pogust@gmail. com http://beeman. se [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12191|12108|2006-12-18 21:22:42|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Lazy Bones Update|The price of the membranes is falling like a rock. It just happens that I design and build RO units for cleaning up industrial wastewater. I bought a set of membranes 3 years ago for $1000 a piece. We replaced them this year for $350 each. Lots of competition in the membrane manufacturing business. GE just bought the previous big dog, Osmonics. Any of you guys want one for 15,000 gallons a day or more, give me a call! Why be the only one in the marina with good water, supply everyone! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:20 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update >>> > > You end up paying $12,000 for a proper sized > watermaker instead of under $1,000 and get a much flimsier unit. > > << > > The correct advice for anyone considering a watermaker is to recommend > they > install a good rain catcher and decent sized tanks instead. In nearly 20 > years of cruising we have never needed a watermaker and it has never > limited > our travels. Watermakers are completely at odds with building a simple, > reliable, low cost cruising boat. > > This is a technical issue, not a design issue. The membrane is a very > sensitive, very pricey piece of high tech equipment that fails given the > least excuse, typically at the worst possible time. Just about every > cruising boat we know that has one has had problems to the point where > they > no longer use the unit. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12192|12192|2006-12-18 21:24:47|Alex|building vs etc|Um, mostly the group is dedicated to building, sharing technical knowledge and information, so let's not get too sidetracked about buying vs building. Those who wish to buy, will buy, those who wish to build, will build...right? There are so many variables at play in a person's choice, both practical and emotional, so obviously there is no right or wrong path to take, and no amount of hammering on about one's own position will change anyone's mind. Ease up, lads, before we blow a gasket! Alex| 12193|2123|2006-12-18 21:25:28|Alex Christie|Swain 36 for sale|A 36 foot swain has come up for sale for those who would like to buy than build! http://www.boatquest.com/All/Manufacturer/Category/Length/21525/Feet/ USD/1/boats.aspx I believe this one is a fin-keel version. Has no pilot house, or solid lifelines, but could be retrofit if so desired. (Thanks to RW for the heads-up) Alex| 12194|12108|2006-12-18 21:26:14|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|In case anyone is unclear, my advice is intended for people that want to go cruising and don't have thousands of dollars saved up in the bank. I'm not saying you should go cruising, that is a personal choice. I'm not saying you should buy a boat, rather than build a boat. On the contrary, I've built more boats for myself than I've bought. Rather, we put on our pants before our shoes because it works better. For those wanting to go cruising, that don't have thousands saved up, that don't have experience, buying first and building second typically works better than building first. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12195|12108|2006-12-19 13:26:13|Michael Casling|Re: Lazy Bones Update|With situations like this, there are no wrong answers. As long as the goals are being met you will get a passing mark. That is the way it is with a financial exam. The debate is fine, but everyone will do it their way. It is next to impossible to have anyone follow your advice. You can present it as " This is what worked for me " but trying to find fault with other folks ideas, or way of doing it, will not work. There are other groups where buying a used boat cheap, boat fits the general ideas of the members. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In case anyone is unclear, my advice is intended for people that want to go > cruising and don't have thousands of dollars saved up in the bank. > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12196|12108|2006-12-19 15:05:00|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|How do you buy first without any assets or any money in the bank? Building can be a pay as you go and learn whats in the boat as it goes in, interest free. Resist the bullshit that the boat has to be absolutely finished before you can get some enjoyment out of it. A bare shell with a rig in it can be sailed and enjoyed, giving you more time to make other decisions. It's easier to step off a dock while building an interior than having to climb a ladder every time. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In case anyone is unclear, my advice is intended for people that want to go > cruising and don't have thousands of dollars saved up in the bank. > > > > I'm not saying you should go cruising, that is a personal choice. I'm not > saying you should buy a boat, rather than build a boat. On the contrary, > I've built more boats for myself than I've bought. > > > > Rather, we put on our pants before our shoes because it works better. For > those wanting to go cruising, that don't have thousands saved up, that don't > have experience, buying first and building second typically works better > than building first. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12197|12183|2006-12-19 18:59:08|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Build vs Buy|Phil Bolger has a few and you're talking drafts down to 2ft or less and sitting out on a drying out mooring as well.The 'Eventide' owners group are currently looking for plans for the steel version of 'Waterwitch mk2' - a 30ft barge yacht(Another Maurice Griffiths design).Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some Dutch designs out there as well.Selway Fisher have some too cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 12198|12198|2006-12-19 19:00:35|cwa99utah|Dry storage in Northwest|Wanted: dry storage for our boat in the Northwest. 36' Brent Swain twin keel sailboat (probably no mast yet). Looking at next winter (after August) as the time frame. Thanks, Carl & Kate S/V Moonflower of Moab| 12199|12108|2006-12-19 19:03:56|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > How do you buy first without any assets or any money in the bank? > Building can be a pay as you go and learn whats in the boat as it > goes in, interest free. Yes, I agree. I can't see how the borrow money caper can work. No credit record, pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Vendor finance - I guess the acid test is if the owner of LAZY BONES is prepared to sell to someone sans credit record, income or assets and on what terms. I'm not interested in that boat and I don't qualify anyway - I own waterfront real estate outright. It was cheap when I bought it..... > Resist the bullshit that the boat has to be absolutely finished > before you can get some enjoyment out of it. A bare shell with a rig > in it can be sailed and enjoyed, giving you more time to make other > decisions. It's easier to step off a dock while building an interior > than having to climb a ladder every time. Having done this, I disagree. The problem with working alongside a dock is, unless you own the dock, having your tools handy is pretty unlikely and unless you have all your tools there all the time, you'll be doing a lot of cursing & driving to fetch what you forgot. Then there are power issues, storage of supplies etc etc. Give me my own premises where everything is to hand and I can work undisturbed. Sure, finish off the fiddly bits later, but I wouldn't do any serious woodwork alongside if I could do it in the yard. One of the things about working undercover, if possible, is that you can build a raised platform and move the tools etc up a level, minimising the up/down all the time. Which is what I plan on doing. 4 sheets of ply gives you an 8' by 16' work area. On the subject of walking up & down ladders, I definitely agree. Try working on a freighter in dry dock replacing transducers. Dock floor to top, then down inside the hull to the bow space, 6' away from where you started, then back again. Repeat as required..... I'm a hell of a lot fitter at the end of a couple weeks in dock than at the start.| 12200|12108|2006-12-19 19:05:41|Paul Wilson|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Well said, Michael. Its different strokes for different folks. Getting everyone to agree is like herding cats. A person's opinion is just that....an opinion. Now here's mine....:) I would never argue that building a boat makes financial sense when there are so many good used ones out there. Having built one, sailed, and lived on it over the last 20 years, what is the value to me in satisfaction and gained skills? I don't think you could put a price on it. It has given me the confidence and skills that I probably could't get any other way. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I am currently designing my next dream boat. I would love to build it myself but probably won't. It's fun to dream and dreams don't cost any money. If I do, it will be just because I can afford it, have the will and the energy and just because I want to....not because it makes financial sense. Think of it as like having children. Very few people have the time, money, or energy to build a boat. Fewer still have a willing partner. For those people....buy one. It doesn't matter how, just do it. For those that build.... good on you, well done. There is nothing wrong with either approach. Cheers, Paul --- Michael Casling wrote: > With situations like this, there are no wrong > answers. As long as > the goals are being met you will get a passing mark. > That is the way > it is with a financial exam. The debate is fine, but > everyone will > do it their way. It is next to impossible to have > anyone follow your > advice. You can present it as " This is what worked > for me " but > trying to find fault with other folks ideas, or way > of doing it, > will not work. There are other groups where buying a > used boat > cheap, boat fits the general ideas of the members. > > Michael > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > In case anyone is unclear, my advice is intended > for people that > want to go > > cruising and don't have thousands of dollars saved > up in the bank. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12201|12108|2006-12-20 00:36:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only pay them 3%. Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought it for me. Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three years to save $40,000 from the rent. Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause us problems when it came time to give the welder back. What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time to give the money back. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12202|12108|2006-12-20 02:54:40|Aaron Williams|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Greg That works just fine if you work near the water or can get a job that is near. One can build small amounts a time and yes it will take longer and probably will cost more but you could accidentally end up with a good boat. If one takes the time to learn some skills. I agree with the general idea about learning to make the money work for you instead of working for money. For me I like to build things so that is what I do for my second job at home and that is what will foot the bill for building a sailboat. Almost bought one last month a real fixer upper. I figure I would spend 2 times a much total cost of refitting and purchase price and still have a 20 year old boat worth less than I put into it. That does not make cents.... Aaron ge@... wrote: >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only pay them 3%. Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought it for me. Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three years to save $40,000 from the rent. Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause us problems when it came time to give the welder back. What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time to give the money back. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12203|12108|2006-12-20 02:56:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|One other thing - When it comes time to build, who will better be able to design the features they want in a boat? The person that has spent their time sailing and living aboard, or the person that has been renting an apartment all the while? Which person is likely to build with the least errors and expense? Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@... Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only pay them 3%. Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought it for me. Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three years to save $40,000 from the rent. Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause us problems when it came time to give the welder back. What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time to give the money back. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12204|12204|2006-12-20 12:39:02|michaelandmonica2003|mig's?|why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders?| 12205|12108|2006-12-20 12:41:34|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: Lazy Bones Update|one thing forgotten in this buy vs build debate is dockage and hidden costs. liveaboard dockage in most parts of the country is the same a rent for a small apt. when the hidden factors of living aboard are factored in such as storage lockers etc. there is no money to be saved. 15 years liveaboard exp. eastcoast and canada mike| 12206|12108|2006-12-20 12:42:55|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 09:22:11PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. > > Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 > before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. > > Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. Greg, I agree with much of your advice in general terms, but this bit isn't something you can just make happen by magic. No bank will give you a 10% loan without a track record or security - they might do a _personal_ loan (21% and up) if you have the latter but not the former. Hand-waving of this sort makes all your other arguments suspect - since they rest on the basis of this one, which isn't going to happen for the average person. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12207|12183|2006-12-20 12:45:59|sae140|Re: Build vs Buy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY wrote: > > Phil Bolger has a few and you're talking drafts down > to 2ft or less and sitting out on a drying out mooring > as well.The 'Eventide' owners group are currently > looking for plans for the steel version of 'Waterwitch > mk2' - a 30ft barge yacht(Another Maurice Griffiths > design).Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some > Dutch designs out there as well.Selway Fisher have > some too > cheers > Andy Airey > Hi Andy Never seen a Bolger boat for sale on this side of the pond. Have seen just one Waterwitch part-finished steel hull for sale within the last few years. Most of the Eventide range are wood of course. But sure, this is the kind of size and draft suitable for these waters. Sadly, no matter how good the Gazelle's may be, they are just too long when you're paying for moorings by the foot, often with an upper length limit. Another factor to vector into the equation is a person's location viz- a-viz the boat's ... I'm not averse to jumping on a plane if there were a few boats to choose from at the other end - but thousands of air miles to view just one boat requires more optimism than I now possess, having seen far too many rough boats (which looked on paper/ in photographs) in my time. There are indeed a couple of Dutch designs which would fit the brief - Grundel yachts and so forth - but they very seldom come onto the market. Really good boats are either kept for life, or handed on to knowledgable locals. Whilst a person is waiting many years for the right steel shallow draft boat to come along (and of course - it just never might!), in my view they'd be much better off starting a build of their own. Or get a yard to build the steelwork if they were really flush with cash. Colin| 12208|12204|2006-12-20 16:25:08|colin edley|Re: mig's?|Stick welding is cheaper, works better in draughty conditions. Apart from that no reason. michaelandmonica2003 wrote: why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? --------------------------------- All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12209|12204|2006-12-20 16:28:23|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: mig's?|On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 04:34:31PM -0000, michaelandmonica2003 wrote: > why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? Minimal penetration; welds that look good on the surface but have nothing but air underneath (very common with inexperienced weldors, and deadly on a boat); cost and hassle of gas; high initial and operating costs of the welder; low availability of the right kinds of wire in many places; high cost of service for the welder if it breaks; very short cable, requiring dragging the unit around... I'm sure there are a few more reasons, but for me, those are enough for a start. :) Brent also shows how to build an on-board welder in his book using nothing more than three heavy-duty rectifiers; building a MIG welder would require a machine shop and some rather specialized knowledge. With stick welding, you can hook up two car batteries in series, grab a rod with a jumper cable clamp, and start making pretty good quality welds immediately. If you happen to be anchored by Nowhere Island, and need to patch your hull, stick welding will get you going; methods that require specialty stores and precision parts will leave you sitting on that beach. It's better to stick (double pun intended) with efficient, widely-available methods. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12210|12108|2006-12-20 17:25:14|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. > > Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 > before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. > > Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale > locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate > your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only > pay them 3%. > > Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be > sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some > will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others > will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought > it for me. OK, first, I strongly doubt the owner would finance at 10%. He's probably selling to use the money for something else, possibly paying out *his* loan. Assuming the boat is debt free, he might well want the money as a deposit on another boat, house, etc. Cash in the hand is better than a problematic repayment stream from someone who can't obtain bank finance, while the ex-owner has to finance whatever he wants to buy. This scenario only works if the vendor can afford to wait for 5 years to recover all his money. Very small pool of people. Second, if you're cruising from day 1, where's the income stream coming from to pay the debt? Third, if you're *not* cruising from day 1, where is the mythical place you can park your boat and live cost free while you get the income stream to pay for it? Damn few places where you can anchor out indefinitely, for free. I own places in 2 capital cities in Australia and for sure, in Sydney, Broken Bay or Port Hacking you've no chance of living aboard for an extended period of time and being able to commute to a job. Don't need a job because you've an income stream already? No problem getting a bank loan, then. This can only work for a very, very small group of people and you need one of the correct type on both vendor and purchaser side of the deal. Million to one odds. PDW| 12211|12204|2006-12-20 17:26:37|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig's?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 04:34:31PM -0000, michaelandmonica2003 wrote: > > why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? > > Minimal penetration; welds that look good on the surface but have > nothing but air underneath (very common with inexperienced weldors, and > deadly on a boat); Bingo. I just re-welded a broken chair mount. Absolutely no penetration on one leg of the fillet weld. cost and hassle of gas; high initial and operating > costs of the welder; low availability of the right kinds of wire in many > places; high cost of service for the welder if it breaks; very short > cable, requiring dragging the unit around... I'm sure there are a few > more reasons, but for me, those are enough for a start. :) I agree with you. Mind you I have one but it's a 250A 3 phase industrial unit - and I still use a stick welder a lot of the time. Oh yes the other thing against MIG welding is out of position welding - they're lousy for this IMO unless you have a very expensive unit with lots of bells & whistles. > With stick welding, you can hook up two car batteries in series, grab a > rod with a jumper cable clamp, and start making pretty good quality > welds immediately. If you happen to be anchored by Nowhere Island, and > need to patch your hull, stick welding will get you going; methods that > require specialty stores and precision parts will leave you sitting on > that beach. It's better to stick (double pun intended) with efficient, > widely-available methods. On exception (tho salt air is a consideration) is a Readywelder spoolgun loaded with flux cored wire. Runs off 2 12V batteries in series, good penetration, flexibility, well made. I have one of these and I like it. When I go travelling, it'll be onboard. www.readywelder.com for those interested. However for general purposes I'd use a stick welder and E6011 (4111 metric) rods. All position welding, deep penetration and not too much current needed. The weld generally looks like crap because there's no rutile slag to help smooth it out while cooling but OTOH you don't get slag inclusions either, and an angle grinder fixes a lot of ugly welds. PDW| 12212|12183|2006-12-20 17:27:16|peter_d_wiley|Re: Build vs Buy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Whilst a person is waiting many years for the right steel shallow > draft boat to come along (and of course - it just never might!), in > my view they'd be much better off starting a build of their own. Or > get a yard to build the steelwork if they were really flush with cash. I agree with you. Doesn't stop me looking at other peoples' boats tho, just in case that gem does turn up. Once I start building I'm committed, and there's no point looking after that. Recently I declined to take a free steel hull because it wasn't a design I liked and the effort of finishing it was going to be the same as for a design I did like. My short list is down to 2 boats now - the Swain 36' bilge keel design and a stretched 38' Colvin Witch. Both have pluses & minuses but both are shoal draft. PDW| 12213|12108|2006-12-20 17:27:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I've already laid out how to get a great credit rating without spending a cent. A good credit rating simply means you can be relied on to pay your bills on time, not that you have paid interest on loans. In any case, why use a bank? The owner has said he will negotiate. Negotiate. I've already laid out one strategy. There is nothing magic about this. It takes some work to educate yourself. I'm paying a hair over 5% - well under 6% - on money I just borrowed from a bank. Rates have come down since then. The "thing" I bought pays the note and is its own security. Couple of years, the note is paid for by the "thing", and the money then goes into my pocket. Each time you do this, your wealth grows, until you have the money to build, cruise, retire, whatever. Start small, have patience, and be disciplined. For sure, some people don't pay their bills, can't do things on time, and are undisciplined and generally unreliable. These people are going to have a poor credit rating, pay more than 10% and have trouble getting loans. Will the alternative work for them? Are they likely to save money, successfully build to completion and go cruising? Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin A. Okopnik Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 09:22:11PM -0800, ge@easysoftwareinc. com wrote: > >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. > > Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 > before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. > > Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. Greg, I agree with much of your advice in general terms, but this bit isn't something you can just make happen by magic. No bank will give you a 10% loan without a track record or security - they might do a _personal_ loan (21% and up) if you have the latter but not the former. Hand-waving of this sort makes all your other arguments suspect - since they rest on the basis of this one, which isn't going to happen for the average person. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12214|12108|2006-12-20 17:30:29|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Type 3 advice. From a builder's point of view, boats projects that don't get completed, boats that aren't worth the cost of materials and labor that went into them, those are wrong answers. Boat building has tons of personal benefits. This does not justify ending up with a "poor" result. How do we get wrong answers? Advice comes in three flavors: 1. Those that say you should do "A", even though they have never done it themselves. 2. Those that say you should do "A", even though they actually did "B". 3. Those that say you should do "A", that actually did "A". Type 1 and 2 advice, when presented as type 3 advice - that is how wrong answers start. People head in the wrong direction, assuming it is a well charted course, when in fact they could well be heading into uncharted waters. Is there any reason we should not object to this? I very much find fault with it. Every builder looking to avoid wrong answers need to know clearly if the advice being given is type 1, 2, or 3. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Casling Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update With situations like this, there are no wrong answers. As long as the goals are being met you will get a passing mark. That is the way it is with a financial exam. The debate is fine, but everyone will do it their way. It is next to impossible to have anyone follow your advice. You can present it as " This is what worked for me " but trying to find fault with other folks ideas, or way of doing it, will not work. There are other groups where buying a used boat cheap, boat fits the general ideas of the members. Michael --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In case anyone is unclear, my advice is intended for people that want to go > cruising and don't have thousands of dollars saved up in the bank. > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12215|12108|2006-12-20 17:33:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|One of the arguments to build a shell and move aboard is to use the rent savings to finish the boat. You are saying this won't work. The savings will be chewed up in dock fees and storage fees. This strengthens the reasons to buy a finished boat first then build. If you have a boat that is finished you can move off the dock and live-aboard at anchor and dinghy ashore. You don't need power, water, work-space, or storage locker. We've always found locations that allow this, even in major cities, often free, at most a modest fee. Tied to a dock, in a city, you are taking up prime waterfront. Apartment rents for waterfront with a view are way more than $1000 in most places. Why stay tied to the dock? Sort of defeats the reason for having a boat. At anchor the view is better and the fees are less. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mkriley@... Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:48 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update one thing forgotten in this buy vs build debate is dockage and hidden costs. liveaboard dockage in most parts of the country is the same a rent for a small apt. when the hidden factors of living aboard are factored in such as storage lockers etc. there is no money to be saved. 15 years liveaboard exp. eastcoast and canada mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12216|12108|2006-12-20 17:33:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|* the hatch was hundreds of dollars. It was $550 wholesale. > A transparent hatch, in the right location doubles as a window and is worth the extra price as compared to a solid hatch. Your average factory could punch out opaque alloy hatches out all day long for a few $ each, if there was market demand. How big should a hatch be? Number 1, your forward hatches should be big enough to get a sail bag through. Number 2, you need a forward hatch that you can go through. For security and safety reasons you don't want to be limited to exiting through the companionway - think fire, anchors, watch keeping, sinking, boarders, privacy, guests, toilet, etc., etc. I'm in and out the forward hatch all day (and night) long. Number 3, hatches should be big enough to take a milk crate, the ones that say, "Property of". These are perhaps the handiest things ever invented for a boat, second only to a bucket. Leave a bit of extra room, not all crates are the same size. I wouldn't make small hatches simply to keep people out. It reminds me of people that burn to death because they have bars on their windows. It can be hotter than hell in the tropics. You will want the ventilation. For security we have an IR alarm that runs down the center of the boat that can be activated from our berth. The whole rig draws almost nothing - 15mA - off the shelf from radio dirt for less than $100. Someone comes inside - the whole anchorage hears the alarm at our masthead. The intruder hears a second alarm positioned inside the boat. It is so loud you can't think. It is physically painful. Imagine what it is like if you are sneaking onboard - you can't get off the boat fast enough. With kids, the alarm tells you if they are headed outside. They crawl under the beam to use the head. The alarm at the masthead is also hooked to a float switch, in case the boat takes on water. Factory built often makes sense. I've got 4 big 2-speed self-tailers aboard the Bones. They were expensive - and I wouldn't trade them for any number of home-made winches. Short handed, one hand tailing, one on the winch handle, and another holding on for balance, grinding away like mad, tying and untying cleats, just doesn't make it for me. Short-handed in a blow, there is nothing like great winches to get the sails under control before they flog themselves to death. Single speed winches don't have the grunt, or the speed, once the boat gets to a size. Big 2-speed self-tailers, bring the sails in fast one way, cinch them tight the other, nothing to cleat or uncleat. Fast, powerful, reliable, works for me. One exception is blocks. Modern blocks are more for racing than cruising. Tufnell faces are easier on lines than metal faces, and the wheels last longer in the sun than white plastic. Hard to find these days, so you usually need to fabricate. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12217|12108|2006-12-20 19:32:29|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 11:55:02AM -0800, ge@... wrote: > I've already laid out how to get a great credit rating without spending a > cent. A good credit rating simply means you can be relied on to pay your > bills on time, not that you have paid interest on loans. In any case, why > use a bank? The owner has said he will negotiate. Negotiate. I've already > laid out one strategy. "Negotiate" doesn't mean you get the boat and the seller carries all the risk. It means "discuss price and terms" - and there's no reason for anyone to accept the kind of risk that you're claiming they'll assume. As to insurance for security, please name a company that would be willing to carry that one; I'll "buy" a boat tomorrow, sail away, and let them pay for it. > There is nothing magic about this. It takes some work to educate yourself. > I'm paying a hair over 5% - well under 6% - on money I just borrowed from a > bank. Rates have come down since then. Really? Let me take a quick look at the Fed, etc. (via Bankrate.com): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This week Month ago Year ago WSJ Prime Rate 8.25 8.25 7.25 Federal Discount Rate 6.25 6.25 5.25 The prime rate, as reported by the Wall Street Journal's bank survey, is among the most widely used benchmark in setting home equity lines of credit and credit card rates. It is in turn based on the fed funds rate, which is set by the Federal Reserve. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It seems you're buying money at a better rate than the US banks - and miles better than home-eq (i.e., loans secured by real estate, the lowest-risk category loans.) Can you get some for me? I'll be happy to pay you two points. Just name the amount, and we're in business. > The "thing" I bought pays the note and is its own security. Err, no. The "thing" that you have bought cannot be used as security for a loan until you own it; you have no equity in it until you've paid it down, and you can't get double escrow on non-income properties. You do not own it as soon as you've bought it - I'm sure you understand the meaning of "equity" - and the bank is not in the boat-selling business; if you default on the loan, they have to get rid of it in minimum time, via some agent, which means they'll take a huge hit on the price. That means a loan for about 60-65% of the (low-end) surveyed value, and a lot less than that if the boat is a custom job. I must say that you're making your case progressively less and less convincing. Your argument seems to be "get someone to carry the risk for you, and you're home free!" The challenge lies in passing that first small hurdle... after that, everything is easy. > Couple of > years, the note is paid for by the "thing", and the money then goes into my > pocket. Each time you do this, your wealth grows, until you have the money > to build, cruise, retire, whatever. Start small, have patience, and be > disciplined. The note is not 'paid for by the "thing"', unless the "thing" is income property or a business. There is no "money that goes into your pocket" barring the same requirement. A boat, in financial terms, is a liability, not an investment; approaching it from a financial standpoint, as you are, does not make sense. Theoretically, you could buy investments that - once they go into the black - could pay for a boat; this, however, is not a matter of days, weeks, or even a few years. It takes a lifetime. Me, I own a boat worth $45K in today's market and live aboard - and have done so ever since about 1991. It didn't take a credit rating; it did take being patient enough to build a cash reserve and find a good deal, then put in a hell of a lot of work to bring the boat up to spec. Meanwhile, I spent seven years cruising in the Caribbean without the slightest worry about making the monthly note. And *that* is real financial security. Brent Swain is telling people how to achieve that kind. I, for one, appreciate and honor the man. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12218|12218|2006-12-20 19:33:19|Alex Christie|36 foot Aluminum Swain for sale|I just found this ad on Craigslist for a 36 foot fin-keel aluminum Swain for sale, $97k cdn. Built year 2000, engine and tankage in, no woodwork. http://victoria.craigslist.org/boa/250548081.html Alex| 12219|12192|2006-12-20 19:36:07|peter_d_wiley|Re: building vs etc|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Um, mostly the group is dedicated to building, sharing technical knowledge and > information, so let's not get too sidetracked about buying vs building. Those who wish to > buy, will buy, those who wish to build, will build...right? There are so many variables at > play in a person's choice, both practical and emotional, so obviously there is no right or > wrong path to take, and no amount of hammering on about one's own position will change > anyone's mind. Ease up, lads, before we blow a gasket! Ah, this is all good fun. BTW, where's the next set of DVD's on the internal fitout etc? If I can get out of the amount of sea time I've got booked up for 2007, I might be able to start welding plate. PDW| 12220|12108|2006-12-20 19:58:03|put_to_sea|Re: Lazy Bones Update|This reminds me of my ex-wife's grandfather who was a commercial fisherman on the Oregon coast. He decided to retire and he had a hard time selling his boat so he sold it to someone on terms similar to what Greg proposes. To make a long story short, the buyer let the insurance lapse, the boat went on the rocks, and the seller lost it all except for a small down payment. It sure put a crimp in his retirement. Amos| 12221|12204|2006-12-20 20:21:14|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: mig's?|On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 10:09:23PM -0000, peter_d_wiley wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > cost and hassle of gas; high initial and operating > > costs of the welder; low availability of the right kinds of wire in many > > places; high cost of service for the welder if it breaks; very short > > cable, requiring dragging the unit around... I'm sure there are a few > > more reasons, but for me, those are enough for a start. :) > > I agree with you. Mind you I have one but it's a 250A 3 phase industrial unit - and I still > use a stick welder a lot of the time. Recently, my wife and I took an accelerated welding course under one of the best instructors I've met in my life (that's saying something, considering that I'm a professional instructor myself!); when I told him why I wanted to learn to weld, he "tuned" the course for me so that it was essentially all stick. I only got to play with MIG and TIG in the final week of the course - I managed to "accidentally" get certified with stick :) - and it was lots of fun, but not what I was there for. > Oh yes the other thing against MIG welding is out of position welding - they're lousy for > this IMO unless you have a very expensive unit with lots of bells & whistles. [nod] At school, I got to play with a _very_ expensive MIG unit that could do overhead; I was so surprised that I actually read all the company literature about how they made it work. Verrry clever, those Lincoln people. > > With stick welding, you can hook up two car batteries in series, grab a > > rod with a jumper cable clamp, and start making pretty good quality > > welds immediately. If you happen to be anchored by Nowhere Island, and > > need to patch your hull, stick welding will get you going; methods that > > require specialty stores and precision parts will leave you sitting on > > that beach. It's better to stick (double pun intended) with efficient, > > widely-available methods. > > On exception (tho salt air is a consideration) is a Readywelder spoolgun loaded with flux > cored wire. Runs off 2 12V batteries in series, good penetration, flexibility, well made. I > have one of these and I like it. When I go travelling, it'll be onboard. > > www.readywelder.com for those interested. I saw that when I was shopping for a welder; it looked really good, but the price they're asking seemed pretty high. I bought a Mobiweld unit (http://www.perfectswitch.com/mobiarc200x.htm), and have been very satisfied with it. In addition, Scott and Frank (the owner and the engineer) are very knowledgeable about electronics, and have helped me in a number of ways over the years; these people are sharp, have integrity, and stand 100% behind their product. They've also got a TIG module that you can add for $198, and are currently working on one for MIG (it looks similar to the Readywelder.) > However for general purposes I'd use a stick welder and E6011 (4111 metric) rods. All > position welding, deep penetration and not too much current needed. The weld generally > looks like crap because there's no rutile slag to help smooth it out while cooling but OTOH > you don't get slag inclusions either, and an angle grinder fixes a lot of ugly welds. Heh. Like trim in woodwork, it covers a multitude of sins. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12222|12204|2006-12-20 20:24:47|tazmannusa|Re: mig's?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "michaelandmonica2003" wrote: > > why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? > No reason not to if you are a good welder with mig , it's a little tricky to learn compared to stick. I did a little mig welding on my 26 but it didnt take long to figure out that it was more a pain in the --- than it was worth " short lead lenth, wind blowing ect. stick just worked out a lot easyer Tom| 12223|12204|2006-12-20 21:40:46|Gary H. Lucas|Re: mig's?|Poor penetration is not a MIG problem it is a weldor problem. The number one problem is using 0.035" welding wire. To get a good stick weld or a good MIG requires virtually the exact same amount of weld current. 0.035" welding wire can not carry enough current for good penetration of steel starting at 1/8" in thickness. We used to fabricate and weld thousands of brackets at time. Then it got hot dip galvanized. Then one day a customer said some were falling apart. I did some destructive testing and found a huge percentage of welded parts that were absolutely beautiful just about fell apart. We did lots of testing, and found that the only reliable way to ensure good welds was switching to 0.045" wire and learning how NOT to burn all the way through. Our welding speed doubled and our failures went to zero. Now every time I post this information some expert welders always tell me I am full of shit. They can make perfect welds with 0.035" wire. And I am sure they can, sometimes, most of the time, nearly all the time. However every welding vendor who has ever refused to listen to me about this has had failed welds on our parts. So all my drawings say that all parts will be welded with 0.045" and I turn down those that weren't. I don't want to test your welding skills, I want good parts. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "peter_d_wiley" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mig's? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 04:34:31PM -0000, michaelandmonica2003 wrote: > > why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? > > Minimal penetration; welds that look good on the surface but have > nothing but air underneath (very common with inexperienced weldors, and > deadly on a boat); Bingo. I just re-welded a broken chair mount. Absolutely no penetration on one leg of the fillet weld. cost and hassle of gas; high initial and operating > costs of the welder; low availability of the right kinds of wire in many > places; high cost of service for the welder if it breaks; very short > cable, requiring dragging the unit around... I'm sure there are a few > more reasons, but for me, those are enough for a start. :) I agree with you. Mind you I have one but it's a 250A 3 phase industrial unit - and I still use a stick welder a lot of the time. Oh yes the other thing against MIG welding is out of position welding - they're lousy for this IMO unless you have a very expensive unit with lots of bells & whistles. > With stick welding, you can hook up two car batteries in series, grab a > rod with a jumper cable clamp, and start making pretty good quality > welds immediately. If you happen to be anchored by Nowhere Island, and > need to patch your hull, stick welding will get you going; methods that > require specialty stores and precision parts will leave you sitting on > that beach. It's better to stick (double pun intended) with efficient, > widely-available methods. On exception (tho salt air is a consideration) is a Readywelder spoolgun loaded with flux cored wire. Runs off 2 12V batteries in series, good penetration, flexibility, well made. I have one of these and I like it. When I go travelling, it'll be onboard. www.readywelder.com for those interested. However for general purposes I'd use a stick welder and E6011 (4111 metric) rods. All position welding, deep penetration and not too much current needed. The weld generally looks like crap because there's no rutile slag to help smooth it out while cooling but OTOH you don't get slag inclusions either, and an angle grinder fixes a lot of ugly welds. PDW | 12224|12108|2006-12-21 00:11:34|Michael Casling|Re: Lazy Bones Update|One of the basic aspects of advice giving ( what I sometimes do in my day job ) is to give the advice, and leave it with the prospective client. Heavy on the leave it, as in leave it alone. If it was good advice they will be back. But to keep on about it, especially with new wrinkles, and subsequent submissions, tends to water down the advice. If you have to say trust me on this, you likely have already lost the trust. Saying trust me several more times just digs you deeper in a whole. Finding fault with differing opinions never helps anyone. Bush law says there are only three times when a person can tell a lie. To save a woman's honour, to save a life, and to sell something. I believe you started all this with a boat for sale. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update One other thing - When it comes time to build, who will better be able to design the features they want in a boat? The person that has spent their time sailing and living aboard, or the person that has been renting an apartment all the while? Which person is likely to build with the least errors and expense? Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@... Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only pay them 3%. Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought it for me. Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three years to save $40,000 from the rent. Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause us problems when it came time to give the welder back. What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time to give the money back. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12225|12204|2006-12-21 00:16:45|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: mig's?|On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 09:27:29PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Poor penetration is not a MIG problem it is a weldor problem. The number > one problem is using 0.035" welding wire. Gary, I have no doubt that in a production environment and given professional weldors, going heavier is the right solution; I also agree that heavier wire would make for better penetration. However, I'll guarantee you that inexperienced weldors will still end up laying a surface-only bead even with 0.045" wire. It's just too easy to do (MIG welds look pretty unless you've _really_ screwed the pooch), and unless you know what you're looking for, it's hard to tell from just looking at it. When people screw up with stick, it's pretty obvious. MIG absolutely has its place; between that and SAW (Submerged-Arc Welding, which allows easy automation), the welding world looks completely different from what it used to be, and a lot of commodity welding (e.g., lawn furniture and such) wouldn't be possible, cost-wise, without it. In my opinion, though, given all the parameters of boat-building and carrying a welding rig wherever you go, stick is by far the best answer. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12226|12108|2006-12-21 20:40:27|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|My current boat was launched as a bare hull and deck. I finished the detail on the beach, where a friend had 220 power and a buzzbox. In the 22 years she's been afloat I've never paid to tie to a dock, including during the finishing time. If I were to do it again I'd buy a cheap generator ( like the chinese 950 watt, 169 dollar one I've been using the last year). I'd put an engine in her to drive an alternator welder and finish the detail in some remote anchorage , with no wharfinger to tell me what I may or may not do on my own boat. Once the shell was launched I had no bills nor deadlines and could finish her at my liesure , far more comfortably than in a yard , with monthly bills coming down the pike and all the thast make getting anything done ina day extremely difficult. I did a lot of my interior work in a quiet lagoon near a lake and got more done there in an hour than I could in a day in the city where people could find me.It was a pleasue rather thana chore. I'd work in the mornings until it got too hot, then climb the hill to the lake nd swim and siesta on the beach till sundown . I spent about $15 a week doing this. Screw the yard. Couldn't get outa there fast enough. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > How do you buy first without any assets or any money in the bank? > > Building can be a pay as you go and learn whats in the boat as it > > goes in, interest free. > > Yes, I agree. I can't see how the borrow money caper can work. No credit record, pay thru > the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Vendor finance - I guess the acid test is if the > owner of LAZY BONES is prepared to sell to someone sans credit record, income or assets > and on what terms. I'm not interested in that boat and I don't qualify anyway - I own > waterfront real estate outright. It was cheap when I bought it..... > > > Resist the bullshit that the boat has to be absolutely finished > > before you can get some enjoyment out of it. A bare shell with a rig > > in it can be sailed and enjoyed, giving you more time to make other > > decisions. It's easier to step off a dock while building an interior > > than having to climb a ladder every time. > > Having done this, I disagree. The problem with working alongside a dock is, unless you > own the dock, having your tools handy is pretty unlikely and unless you have all your tools > there all the time, you'll be doing a lot of cursing & driving to fetch what you forgot. Then > there are power issues, storage of supplies etc etc. Give me my own premises where > everything is to hand and I can work undisturbed. Sure, finish off the fiddly bits later, but I > wouldn't do any serious woodwork alongside if I could do it in the yard. One of the things > about working undercover, if possible, is that you can build a raised platform and move > the tools etc up a level, minimising the up/down all the time. Which is what I plan on > doing. 4 sheets of ply gives you an 8' by 16' work area. > > On the subject of walking up & down ladders, I definitely agree. Try working on a freighter > in dry dock replacing transducers. Dock floor to top, then down inside the hull to the bow > space, 6' away from where you started, then back again. Repeat as required..... I'm a hell > of a lot fitter at the end of a couple weeks in dock than at the start. > | 12227|12204|2006-12-21 20:41:15|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig's?|I think we're all agreed that MIG is a waste of time & money for amateur boatbuilding. I don't dispute or disagree with anything you say, it confirms my own observations & experience. One of my guys (new hire) used a 150A MIG to weld a jockey wheel bracket on a GALVANISED trailer. It didn't take - fell off in fact even tho the weld looked good as soon as the load came on. I ground it out & re-welded it using the 250A MIG, vertical up, pulse mode (my trigger finger) and handed him a hammer. I was making a point because if it'd been my gear I woulda used E6011 vertical down - wasn't that thick metal. I do use my MIG quite a lot for fabrication work on angle, RHS and the like but the thickness is usually 3mm to 6mm and the welding position is flat or horizontal/vertical at worst. OTOH the spool gun loaded with flux cored is quite capable of out of position work with excellent penetration. More expensive than stick, just as dirty (at least) so except for odd jobs I prefer the stick. Stitch mode on the spoolgun is pretty nice for vertical up or down using flux cored on relatively thin plate; you get penetration but the weld pool cools out fast enough to keep runs under control. If I was using it for pressure work rather than pure structural I'd want to break a few to see I was getting adequate penetration between 'stitches' - might be micro-holes & gaps that'd let liquids thru. Dunno. Welding is always interesting. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Poor penetration is not a MIG problem it is a weldor problem. The number > one problem is using 0.035" welding wire. To get a good stick weld or a > good MIG requires virtually the exact same amount of weld current. 0.035" > welding wire can not carry enough current for good penetration of steel > starting at 1/8" in thickness. We used to fabricate and weld thousands of > brackets at time. Then it got hot dip galvanized. Then one day a customer > said some were falling apart. I did some destructive testing and found a > huge percentage of welded parts that were absolutely beautiful just about > fell apart. We did lots of testing, and found that the only reliable way to > ensure good welds was switching to 0.045" wire and learning how NOT to burn > all the way through. Our welding speed doubled and our failures went to > zero. > > Now every time I post this information some expert welders always tell me I > am full of shit. They can make perfect welds with 0.035" wire. And I am > sure they can, sometimes, most of the time, nearly all the time. However > every welding vendor who has ever refused to listen to me about this has had > failed welds on our parts. So all my drawings say that all parts will be > welded with 0.045" and I turn down those that weren't. I don't want to > test your welding skills, I want good parts. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter_d_wiley" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 5:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mig's? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 04:34:31PM -0000, michaelandmonica2003 wrote: > > > why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? > > > > Minimal penetration; welds that look good on the surface but have > > nothing but air underneath (very common with inexperienced weldors, and > > deadly on a boat); > > Bingo. I just re-welded a broken chair mount. Absolutely no penetration on > one leg of the > fillet weld. > > cost and hassle of gas; high initial and operating > > costs of the welder; low availability of the right kinds of wire in many > > places; high cost of service for the welder if it breaks; very short > > cable, requiring dragging the unit around... I'm sure there are a few > > more reasons, but for me, those are enough for a start. :) > > I agree with you. Mind you I have one but it's a 250A 3 phase industrial > unit - and I still > use a stick welder a lot of the time. > > Oh yes the other thing against MIG welding is out of position welding - > they're lousy for > this IMO unless you have a very expensive unit with lots of bells & > whistles. > > > With stick welding, you can hook up two car batteries in series, grab a > > rod with a jumper cable clamp, and start making pretty good quality > > welds immediately. If you happen to be anchored by Nowhere Island, and > > need to patch your hull, stick welding will get you going; methods that > > require specialty stores and precision parts will leave you sitting on > > that beach. It's better to stick (double pun intended) with efficient, > > widely-available methods. > > On exception (tho salt air is a consideration) is a Readywelder spoolgun > loaded with flux > cored wire. Runs off 2 12V batteries in series, good penetration, > flexibility, well made. I > have one of these and I like it. When I go travelling, it'll be onboard. > > www.readywelder.com for those interested. > > However for general purposes I'd use a stick welder and E6011 (4111 metric) > rods. All > position welding, deep penetration and not too much current needed. The weld > generally > looks like crap because there's no rutile slag to help smooth it out while > cooling but OTOH > you don't get slag inclusions either, and an angle grinder fixes a lot of > ugly welds. > > PDW > | 12228|12108|2006-12-21 20:42:53|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Anyone serious about the BS36, I'm happy to help negotiate. Moaning and groaning about how things can't be done, never having tried. That's what keeps people tied to docks and their desks. They have defeated themselves. That's what I heard all the time when we started cruising. Oh, you can't do that. It will never work. Funny thing was, none of those people had ever tried. They were just parroting what they'd been told. Having struggled along the conventional path, the last thing they wanted to hear was that there was a short-cut. Only a select few have the money and time to build. Fewer still want to give up family, home, security for their future, and their children's future as the cost of owning a boat. All too often, those that go cruising come back broke, divorced, the boat having taken everything they own. The money they worked for years to save, gone. As has been said many times on this forum, judge someone's advice by what it has done for them. My advice allowed me to start sailing without money, to cruise for the better part of 20 years, raise a family and build wealth along the way. Rather than build with your wallet, build with your head. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12229|12108|2006-12-21 20:43:18|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>>It seems you're buying money at a better rate than the US banks Recently I went to a hockey game and signed up for a free Canucks jersey. My name was passed to a credit card company. They called and offered me a card. I told them I wasn't happy with their offer. In today's mail they have sent me a credit line of more than $47,000 at less than 4%. As has been said many times on this forum, judge someone's advice by what it has done for them. My advice allowed me to start sailing without money, to cruise for the better part of 20 years, raise a family, and build wealth along the way. Build with your head, not your wallet. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12230|12204|2006-12-21 20:46:05|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: mig's?|Same thing in wood stove building guys would also set it to spray a wide ark to make it look good and get poor penatration. A lot of hot and cold cycles and the welds would break and a few houses burned. Not a good thing. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Poor penetration is not a MIG problem it is a weldor problem. The number > one problem is using 0.035" welding wire. To get a good stick weld or a > good MIG requires virtually the exact same amount of weld current. 0.035" > welding wire can not carry enough current for good penetration of steel > starting at 1/8" in thickness. We used to fabricate and weld thousands of > brackets at time. Then it got hot dip galvanized. Then one day a customer > said some were falling apart. I did some destructive testing and found a > huge percentage of welded parts that were absolutely beautiful just about > fell apart. We did lots of testing, and found that the only reliable way to > ensure good welds was switching to 0.045" wire and learning how NOT to burn > all the way through. Our welding speed doubled and our failures went to > zero. > > Now every time I post this information some expert welders always tell me I > am full of shit. They can make perfect welds with 0.035" wire. And I am > sure they can, sometimes, most of the time, nearly all the time. However > every welding vendor who has ever refused to listen to me about this has had > failed welds on our parts. So all my drawings say that all parts will be > welded with 0.045" and I turn down those that weren't. I don't want to > test your welding skills, I want good parts. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter_d_wiley" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 5:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: mig's? > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 04:34:31PM -0000, michaelandmonica2003 wrote: > > > why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? > > > > Minimal penetration; welds that look good on the surface but have > > nothing but air underneath (very common with inexperienced weldors, and > > deadly on a boat); > > Bingo. I just re-welded a broken chair mount. Absolutely no penetration on > one leg of the > fillet weld. > > cost and hassle of gas; high initial and operating > > costs of the welder; low availability of the right kinds of wire in many > > places; high cost of service for the welder if it breaks; very short > > cable, requiring dragging the unit around... I'm sure there are a few > > more reasons, but for me, those are enough for a start. :) > > I agree with you. Mind you I have one but it's a 250A 3 phase industrial > unit - and I still > use a stick welder a lot of the time. > > Oh yes the other thing against MIG welding is out of position welding - > they're lousy for > this IMO unless you have a very expensive unit with lots of bells & > whistles. > > > With stick welding, you can hook up two car batteries in series, grab a > > rod with a jumper cable clamp, and start making pretty good quality > > welds immediately. If you happen to be anchored by Nowhere Island, and > > need to patch your hull, stick welding will get you going; methods that > > require specialty stores and precision parts will leave you sitting on > > that beach. It's better to stick (double pun intended) with efficient, > > widely-available methods. > > On exception (tho salt air is a consideration) is a Readywelder spoolgun > loaded with flux > cored wire. Runs off 2 12V batteries in series, good penetration, > flexibility, well made. I > have one of these and I like it. When I go travelling, it'll be onboard. > > www.readywelder.com for those interested. > > However for general purposes I'd use a stick welder and E6011 (4111 metric) > rods. All > position welding, deep penetration and not too much current needed. The weld > generally > looks like crap because there's no rutile slag to help smooth it out while > cooling but OTOH > you don't get slag inclusions either, and an angle grinder fixes a lot of > ugly welds. > > PDW > | 12231|12108|2006-12-21 20:49:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Calling someone a liar is a pretty strong way of finding fault with their opinion. Sounds like a case of "Do as I say, not as I do". As many that have asked for plans have found out, I don't sell to inexperienced sailors. I recommend they first buy, then build, because that is what other successful builders have done. I don't follow bush law, I follow boat law. You don't head any sailor onto a wrong course, to sell them anything. Check it out below. I've recommended people buy the BS36, not the Bones, as the "first" boat. The Bones is not suitable as a "first" boat. The Bones is like a big, powerful motorcycle. A wonderful ride for the experienced user - too much for the novice. She is for an experienced sailor. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Casling Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 8:43 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update One of the basic aspects of advice giving ( what I sometimes do in my day job ) is to give the advice, and leave it with the prospective client. Heavy on the leave it, as in leave it alone. If it was good advice they will be back. But to keep on about it, especially with new wrinkles, and subsequent submissions, tends to water down the advice. If you have to say trust me on this, you likely have already lost the trust. Saying trust me several more times just digs you deeper in a whole. Finding fault with differing opinions never helps anyone. Bush law says there are only three times when a person can tell a lie. To save a woman's honour, to save a life, and to sell something. I believe you started all this with a boat for sale. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@easysoftwareinc. com To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update One other thing - When it comes time to build, who will better be able to design the features they want in a boat? The person that has spent their time sailing and living aboard, or the person that has been renting an apartment all the while? Which person is likely to build with the least errors and expense? Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@easysoftwareinc. com Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:22 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only pay them 3%. Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought it for me. Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three years to save $40,000 from the rent. Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use it. Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause us problems when it came time to give the welder back. What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time to give the money back. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12232|12108|2006-12-21 20:53:57|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|There are a lot of cheap plastic boats for sale . Given the 10,000 cargo containers lost overboard every year I couldn't relax while sailing on a rough moonless night in a plastic hull. Good steel boats come up for sale rarely, my designs even more rarely. If there is a deal on one , grab it. Wait for one and you could be waiting a long time . As I've mentioned, there are a lot of bad steel boats out there which value style over substance. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. > > Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 > before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. > > Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale > locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate > your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only > pay them 3%. > > Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be > sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some > will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others > will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought > it for me. > > Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a > boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now > putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? > > Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? > The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must > start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three > years to save $40,000 from the rent. > > Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use > it. > > Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent > anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large > screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause > us problems when it came time to give the welder back. > > What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should > only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you > are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, > it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time > to give the money back. > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12233|12204|2006-12-21 20:56:57|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: mig's?|In the shop i worked in it was quiet normal to MIG boiler plate up to 10" thick,the wire was about 3/16 dia. Test pieces never gave cause for concern. I a not welder by trade but i did a lot for my own use.I was shown how to MIG weld and spent time practising in shop time. On trying to MIG weld outside i came across a problem that had not occurred in the shop. Wind blowing the gas shield out of the weld field it was simply solved. Alloy was always TIG welded and i have had cylinder heads repaired by this method, but i would think the cost of the weld set would not be value for money. Narrowboats have been built in many different materails, and one can get a sailaway built in Poland and shipped over. Still waiting the first chinese one, hull could be used as a container for other goods. Seasons greetings to all, Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12234|12204|2006-12-21 20:57:00|brentswain38|Re: mig's?|Migs tend to have short leads and thus have to be moved around a lot . You can put an extra long lead on a stick and never have to move the welder. I once worked in a shop with many migs. After trying to use one for assembly we gave up on it and went for the stick welder . The mig was great for finish welding, but a pain in the ass for assembly. They are more forgiving than mig as is mentioned here. Drafts can screw up a weld without you knowing, until it breaks . This doesn't happen with stick. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, colin edley wrote: > > Stick welding is cheaper, works better in draughty conditions. Apart from that no reason. > > michaelandmonica2003 wrote: why not use mig welders insteade of stick welders? > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of Vi@gr@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12235|12108|2006-12-21 21:03:10|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|That's what I did . I built and detailed a shell, 1 month ashore to build the shell, then launched it and left it at a free spot while I built a couple more for cash( another month's work). Then I spent two weeks detailing her , another ten days painting her , then foamed her and roughed the interior in in a couple more days .Later that fall I spent a couple of weeks rigging her and moved aboard.I had less than $6,000 in herby this stage .All except the first month was rent free. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > One of the arguments to build a shell and move aboard is to use the rent > savings to finish the boat. You are saying this won't work. The savings > will be chewed up in dock fees and storage fees. This strengthens the > reasons to buy a finished boat first then build. > > > > If you have a boat that is finished you can move off the dock and > live-aboard at anchor and dinghy ashore. You don't need power, water, > work-space, or storage locker. We've always found locations that allow > this, even in major cities, often free, at most a modest fee. > > > > Tied to a dock, in a city, you are taking up prime waterfront. Apartment > rents for waterfront with a view are way more than $1000 in most places. > Why stay tied to the dock? Sort of defeats the reason for having a boat. > At anchor the view is better and the fees are less. > > > > Greg Elliott > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of mkriley@... > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:48 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update > > > > one thing forgotten in this buy vs build debate is dockage and hidden costs. > liveaboard dockage in most parts of the country is the same a rent for a > small apt. > when the hidden factors of living aboard are factored in such as storage > lockers etc. > there is no money to be saved. > 15 years liveaboard exp. eastcoast and canada > mike > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12236|12108|2006-12-21 21:12:40|brentswain38|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I found the aluminium for my hatch on the beach . It cost me ten dollars to have it bent up in a brake press, and about the same for welding. It is a far better hatch than any of the commercially built ones I've seen. You can sail a long time without winches, giving you time to find a good deal on good used ones. My Arco 40s cost me $150 each and are as good as new.Not much wears out im modern winches . Dont rush out and buy new what you don't need immediately. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > * the hatch was hundreds of dollars. It was $550 wholesale. > > > > A transparent hatch, in the right location doubles as a window and is worth > the extra price as compared to a solid hatch. Your average factory could > punch out opaque alloy hatches out all day long for a few $ each, if there > was market demand. > > How big should a hatch be? > > Number 1, your forward hatches should be big enough to get a sail bag > through. > > Number 2, you need a forward hatch that you can go through. For security > and safety reasons you don't want to be limited to exiting through the > companionway - think fire, anchors, watch keeping, sinking, boarders, > privacy, guests, toilet, etc., etc. I'm in and out the forward hatch all > day (and night) long. > > Number 3, hatches should be big enough to take a milk crate, the ones that > say, "Property of". These are perhaps the handiest things ever invented for > a boat, second only to a bucket. Leave a bit of extra room, not all crates > are the same size. > > I wouldn't make small hatches simply to keep people out. It reminds me of > people that burn to death because they have bars on their windows. It can > be hotter than hell in the tropics. You will want the ventilation. For > security we have an IR alarm that runs down the center of the boat that can > be activated from our berth. The whole rig draws almost nothing - 15mA - > off the shelf from radio dirt for less than $100. > > Someone comes inside - the whole anchorage hears the alarm at our masthead. > The intruder hears a second alarm positioned inside the boat. It is so loud > you can't think. It is physically painful. Imagine what it is like if you > are sneaking onboard - you can't get off the boat fast enough. With kids, > the alarm tells you if they are headed outside. They crawl under the beam > to use the head. The alarm at the masthead is also hooked to a float > switch, in case the boat takes on water. > > Factory built often makes sense. I've got 4 big 2-speed self-tailers aboard > the Bones. They were expensive - and I wouldn't trade them for any number > of home-made winches. Short handed, one hand tailing, one on the winch > handle, and another holding on for balance, grinding away like mad, tying > and untying cleats, just doesn't make it for me. > > Short-handed in a blow, there is nothing like great winches to get the sails > under control before they flog themselves to death. Single speed winches > don't have the grunt, or the speed, once the boat gets to a size. Big > 2-speed self-tailers, bring the sails in fast one way, cinch them tight the > other, nothing to cleat or uncleat. Fast, powerful, reliable, works for me. > > One exception is blocks. Modern blocks are more for racing than cruising. > Tufnell faces are easier on lines than metal faces, and the wheels last > longer in the sun than white plastic. Hard to find these days, so you > usually need to fabricate. > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12237|12108|2006-12-22 00:36:06|Michael Casling|Re: Lazy Bones Update|It was not my intention to call anyone a liar. A little homour can come accross the wrong way with this medium. I apologise for giving the wrong impression. And you did mention the BS 36 for sale. But it did seem to me as if you were just trying to re state your position, a few too many times. I am not finding fault with your ideas. A previous post made that quite clear when I said there were no wrong answers provided the persons goals were being addressed. But this is a build group audience. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Calling someone a liar is a pretty strong way of finding fault with their > opinion. Sounds like a case of "Do as I say, not as I do". > > > Greg Elliott | 12238|12204|2006-12-22 00:36:27|Gary H. Lucas|Re: mig's?|Ben, I'd have to agree with that, I wasn't arguing in favor of using it for boat building, jus pointing out why it tends to fail. I should have said so sooner. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: mig's? > On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 09:27:29PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> Poor penetration is not a MIG problem it is a weldor problem. The number >> one problem is using 0.035" welding wire. > > Gary, I have no doubt that in a production environment and given > professional weldors, going heavier is the right solution; I also agree > that heavier wire would make for better penetration. However, I'll > guarantee you that inexperienced weldors will still end up laying a > surface-only bead even with 0.045" wire. It's just too easy to do (MIG > welds look pretty unless you've _really_ screwed the pooch), and unless > you know what you're looking for, it's hard to tell from just looking at > it. When people screw up with stick, it's pretty obvious. > > MIG absolutely has its place; between that and SAW (Submerged-Arc > Welding, which allows easy automation), the welding world looks > completely different from what it used to be, and a lot of commodity > welding (e.g., lawn furniture and such) wouldn't be possible, cost-wise, > without it. In my opinion, though, given all the parameters of > boat-building and carrying a welding rig wherever you go, stick is by > far the best answer. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12239|12239|2006-12-22 00:49:00|Alex|All's fair in love and origami hulls|Just put up a new photo on the main page of the group of a bare hull near here -- note the fairness of the hull: it's got primer on it, and not ONE scrap of filler. To me, it's a thing of beauty, acheived without due strain. Something to behold. Alex| 12240|12204|2006-12-22 06:52:21|David A. Frantz|Re: mig's?|I have to disagree to an extent here. Mig or Flux core has its place in ship building, the problem is that you won't be doing mig welding on a boat with a cheap Mig welder. That and you need the required skill to execute. If you are going to build an aluminum boat I'm not sure that I'd want to even consider the alternative which would be TIG. The reality is that most weld shops have an assortment of welders to address the different needs of the projects at hand. There is certainly the potential for enough sheet metal work in a boat to justify having a mig on hand. To do structural quality MIG though will require a significant investment in welding hardware and would be very hard to justify. Even stick can be an issue in the hands of a novice. Here I agree with the people posting about the need to take classes and actually learn to weld before building something your life will depend on. One of the most important things to realize/learn is that the various Mig manufactures are very charitable with the ratings on their small Mig welders. Having the rating of a mig welder may help people understand there real capability. Dave peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > I think we're all agreed that MIG is a waste of time & money for > amateur boatbuilding. I > don't dispute or disagree with anything you say, it confirms my own > observations & > experience. > | 12241|12204|2006-12-22 07:08:03|David A. Frantz|Re: mig's?|I'm not a welder by trade either, but have had extensive experience in plant maintenance. Many years ago I did a significant amount of Mig for structural /high stress machine parts. I can attest to the ability of mig to do an excellent job. The problem is the equipment used at the time wasn't suitable for structural end of do it your self boat building. Nothing reasonably portable is. That doesn't mean there isn't uses for a portable Mig in home boat building either, just that a number of factors work against Mig for the whole job. So I'm actually sitting on both sides of the fence here. I suspect that it would be virtually impossible to complete a boat build without a stick welder. A mig welder though could be helpful. All of this is subject to change, if one is building indoors and has three phase, a good mig would be very productive in a properly set up work area. Dave BrdbMc@... wrote: > > In the shop i worked in it was quiet normal to MIG boiler plate up to 10" > thick,the wire was about 3/16 dia. Test pieces never gave cause for > concern. > I a not welder by trade but i did a lot for my own use.I was shown how to > MIG weld and spent time practising in shop time. > > > | 12242|12242|2006-12-22 07:25:08|David A. Frantz|Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|Hi Guys; As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one question has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled sheet as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost a bit more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would be very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a semicircle. I'm not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has been discussed here. What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape with a more or less squared off stern. Note that I've been reading about boat building and the simplicity of the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. Dave| 12243|12108|2006-12-22 10:53:34|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|There are plenty of good boats. Metal has advantages for offshore, but it is far from unsinkable. Many of the early FG hulls are super strong and with minimal pox and will absorb huge impacts. A "first" boat need not be metal, because it is not intended that you take the first boat offshore. This is the boat you use to gain experience and build wealth with which to build an offshore boat. Even some ferro boats will do as a "first". They can often be had for a good price, though insurance can be an issue. I don't recommend ferro for offshore because it tends to be brittle, and can be difficult to repair. Still, there are ferro boats out there being cruised with success. They take a bit more careful handling, which is part of the reason you need experience for offshore. You need to sail any boat within its limits, which you cannot recognize without experience. How did you get sailing off to NZ at age 23? Where did that boat come from? How did you get the money? I sure as squat didn't have the money saved to build a boat by age 23. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:48 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update There are a lot of cheap plastic boats for sale . Given the 10,000 cargo containers lost overboard every year I couldn't relax while sailing on a rough moonless night in a plastic hull. Good steel boats come up for sale rarely, my designs even more rarely. If there is a deal on one , grab it. Wait for one and you could be waiting a long time . As I've mentioned, there are a lot of bad steel boats out there which value style over substance. --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> pay thru the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. > > Say you are paying $1000 a month in rent. Over 5 years that is $60,000 > before rent increases and you will have nothing to show for it. > > Take out a loan at 10% for $47,000 to buy a boat. There is a BS36 for sale > locally for that price and the owner is offering to negotiate. Negotiate > your terms. Most people would be very happy to get 10% - the bank will only > pay them 3%. > > Your payments will be $999 a month, with no rent increases. You will be > sailing day 1. At the end of 5 years the boat will be fully paid for. Some > will say - look at the $13,000 I paid in interest to buy the boat. Others > will say look at the boat I own, and it cost me nothing. My landlord bought > it for me. > > Once the boat is paid for, who will better be able to afford to build a > boat? The person still paying $1000 a month in rent, or the person now > putting $1000 a month toward building a second boat? > > Once the second boat is complete, who will better be able to go cruising? > The one that now sells his first boat for $40,000, or the one that now must > start saving the rent to fill the cruising kitty? It takes more than three > years to save $40,000 from the rent. > > Money is a tool. Like any tool there is a right way and a wrong way to use > it. > > Think of it this way. Interest is simply rent paid on money. When you rent > anything, say you rent a welder -- do you then trade the welder for a large > screen TV? Most of us would not, because we recognize that it would cause > us problems when it came time to give the welder back. > > What we don't recognize is that renting money is no different. You should > only rent money to make money. When you rent money to save the rent, you > are using finance correctly. When you rent money to buy a large screen TV, > it is just like the welder. You are heading for problems when it comes time > to give the money back. > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12244|12244|2006-12-22 13:15:40|mickeyolaf|Merry Christmas|Hope all u builders, buyers, and dreamers have a great Christmas. May the new year bring the origami group health, lower steel and aluminum prices and lots of marine store bankruptcy sales. May u all launch in 07.| 12245|12108|2006-12-22 15:26:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>>It seems you're buying money at a better rate than the US banks - and >>miles better than home-eq (i.e., loans secured by real estate, the >>lowest-risk category loans.) Can you get some for me? I'll be happy to >>pay you two points. Just name the amount, and we're in business. Amex blue is offering 0% on purchases, 3.99% on balance transfers, no fee, 12 months+. If you want, take out $50,000 on your existing credit cards and transfer the balance over to amex blue. 2 point on this will be $1,000. A US dollar check will be fine, thanks. No, I do not advise this. I'm only joking to make a point. Most people, paying huge credit card fees, can't be bothered to transfer the balance and cut their fees to almost nothing. They are consumers. Go cap in hand to the bank to borrow money and they don't call you Ben, they call you Ben Dover. They know they can screw you and you will thank them afterwards. Better to get the lenders competing for your business by making yourself look good credit wise. A pretty girl gets better offers than an ugly one. Build with you head, not your wallet. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12246|12242|2006-12-22 16:00:37|brentswain38|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with pipe or rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many problems. Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the waterline. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > Hi Guys; > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one question > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled sheet > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost a bit > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would be > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a semicircle. I'm > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has been > discussed here. > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape with a > more or less squared off stern. > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the simplicity of > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > Dave > | 12247|12204|2006-12-22 16:08:37|brentswain38|Re: mig's?|Your course will be 95 % practice and 5% theory. You can get your practice with a buzzbox and a pile of scrap , or building detail bits and pieces and anchors. You can get the theory from the library, enough for stick welding. How does even the worst weld compare with a copper fastening every 6 inches in cedar planking, or chopper gun fibreglass? You'll never break a stick weld on the size of boats we are dealing with. In order to leak a pinhole on the outside weld will have to match perfectly with a pinhole on the inside, and also match equal pinholes thru 8 coats of epoxy tar. Any epoxy seeping into such pinholes would form a permanent, unremovable epoxy rivet. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I have to disagree to an extent here. Mig or Flux core has its place > in ship building, the problem is that you won't be doing mig welding on > a boat with a cheap Mig welder. That and you need the required skill > to execute. If you are going to build an aluminum boat I'm not sure > that I'd want to even consider the alternative which would be TIG. > The reality is that most weld shops have an assortment of welders to > address the different needs of the projects at hand. There is > certainly the potential for enough sheet metal work in a boat to justify > having a mig on hand. To do structural quality MIG though will > require a significant investment in welding hardware and would be very > hard to justify. > > Even stick can be an issue in the hands of a novice. Here I agree > with the people posting about the need to take classes and actually > learn to weld before building something your life will depend on. One > of the most important things to realize/learn is that the various Mig > manufactures are very charitable with the ratings on their small Mig > welders. Having the rating of a mig welder may help people understand > there real capability. > > Dave > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > I think we're all agreed that MIG is a waste of time & money for > > amateur boatbuilding. I > > don't dispute or disagree with anything you say, it confirms my own > > observations & > > experience. > > > | 12248|12108|2006-12-22 18:10:11|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Fri, Dec 22, 2006 at 12:25:51PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > >>It seems you're buying money at a better rate than the US banks - and > >>miles better than home-eq (i.e., loans secured by real estate, the > >>lowest-risk category loans.) Can you get some for me? I'll be happy to > >>pay you two points. Just name the amount, and we're in business. > > Amex blue is offering 0% on purchases, 3.99% on balance transfers, no fee, > 12 months+. To whom? Certainly not to the average guy with no credit history. Presumably - at least according to your claims - you could get it. For people who haven't hit that magic 720 rating, Amex will happily expend a postage stamp and make sure the word "REGRETS" is clearly readable. *And* they'll add a note that says "turned down for credit" to your credit record. > If you want, take out $50,000 on your existing credit cards and > transfer the balance over to amex blue. No, I wanted _you_ to carry the risk on that unsecured note. You won't, though - *which makes my point.* If just giving an asset to a stranger without security doesn't look all that hot to you, why are you so insistent that other people would do it? > No, I do not advise this. I'm only joking to make a point. Most people, > paying huge credit card fees, can't be bothered to transfer the balance and > cut their fees to almost nothing. They are consumers. In some (perhaps even many) cases, this is true - although their fees are not "nothing" just because they're paid up front. That, however, has nothing to do with the scenario you originally proposed. If you want to talk about financial calculations - which, incidentally, will tell you that buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under almost any circumstances - that would be a different conversation. The original one, in which you claimed that anyone can just leverage a boat with nothing but talk and thin air (a.k.a. "future earnings") just doesn't work. If you can address the issue that I brought up - i.e., why a seller would ever take an unsecured risk - then that conversation may become of interest again. For now, it sounds pretty much like any other "get rich quick" scheme, except in this case, it's based around a boat. > Go cap in hand to the bank to borrow money and they don't call you Ben, they > call you Ben Dover. They know they can screw you and you will thank > them afterwards. They call me "Mister Okopnik", actually; perhaps it's because I've never gone to them for a loan, and never will. I'm sorry that your experience was so painful, and I hope that it didn't scar you permanently. > Better to get the lenders competing for your business by making > yourself look good credit wise. A pretty girl gets better offers than an > ugly one. Better yet to learn the skills that will stay with you for a lifetime - and keep paying your way for a lifetime - and either build a boat using those skills (i.e., paying only for materials and having the exact boat that you want) [1] or buy a boat in rough shape at a huge price break and fix it up using those skills. I.e., paying _yourself_ a very high rate and ending up with a perfectly-customized boat at the end. [1] Instead of paying some drunk who got hired by the builder and forgot to, say, put a nut on the back of your through-hull - which will pop out and sink you the first time the weather turns rough. > Build with you head, not your wallet. Seems like that would be an extremely uncomfortable way to carry a piece of steel - but to each his own, I suppose. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12249|12108|2006-12-22 18:46:47|put_to_sea|Re: Lazy Bones Update|> > Amex blue is offering 0% on purchases, 3.99% on balance transfers, no fee, > 12 months+. If you want, take out $50,000 on your existing credit cards and > transfer the balance over to amex blue. 2 point on this will be $1,000. A > US dollar check will be fine, thanks. > > No, I do not advise this. I'm only joking to make a point. Most people, > paying huge credit card fees, can't be bothered to transfer the balance and > cut their fees to almost nothing. They are consumers. > I think we should be careful we don't start sending people down the path to bankruptcy. I have played these games with credit card companies financing my business. Not because I have to, but because I have saved many thousands of dollars in interest over the last few years over alternative financing BUT, and this is a big BUT, if you run into any kind of difficulty making a minimum payment your interest rate jumps to 20%+ and bankruptcy follows. I have always had alternative resources available so if I don't like where the credit card agreement is going, I can pay it off and use conventional loans. Lately I have noticed they have removed the maximum transfer fee from the agreements making the whole execise much less attractive. - Amos| 12250|12108|2006-12-22 19:21:46|Barry Gorman|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Gorman To: Brush Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update Well Merry Christmas to all, I do hope "Lazy Bones" Gets Updated and Buried Soon A Thread should only Go So Far Before it Grinds Itself to Death ! But Who am I To Have a grizle at This Time Of Year ! All The Best You Guys Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update It was not my intention to call anyone a liar. A little homour can come accross the wrong way with this medium. I apologise for giving the wrong impression. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12251|12108|2006-12-22 19:35:05|Barry Gorman|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Well Merry Christmas to all, I do hope "Lazy Bones" Gets Updated and Buried Soon A Thread should only Go So Far Before it Grinds Itself to Death ! But Who am I To Have a grizle at This Time Of Year ! All The Best You Guys Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update It was not my intention to call anyone a liar. A little homour can come accross the wrong way with this medium. I apologise for giving the wrong impression. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12252|3465|2006-12-22 23:23:56|Aaron|Steel Mast|I was wondering if purging a steel mast with hellium would cause bad effects? I think it would help offset the weight of the steel. The only thing I can think of is the fitting on each end you would need to purge through. Aaron| 12253|12244|2006-12-23 00:06:08|Abraham George|Merry Christmas|HI everybody, Wishing MERRY CHRISTMAS and may the coming year be a great one for all ur endavours. Fair Winds Avaraan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12254|3465|2006-12-23 02:54:22|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Steel Mast|It would only help if you could blow it up like a ballon and then it wouldn't work as a mast. The fact is you need volume to get lift (make it lighter) and there is no place for enough valume to help. A scuba tanc full sinks but when empty floats becouse compresed air is heavyer then free air if you get the drift. Mabe Argon would prevent condensation and rust on the inside. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I was wondering if purging a steel mast with hellium would cause bad > effects? I think it would help offset the weight of the steel. The only > thing I can think of is the fitting on each end you would need to purge > through. > Aaron > | 12255|12204|2006-12-23 04:52:26|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig's?|I've got 3 phase and a big shed (almost finished). I also have a MIG, old but industrial - it'll run 1.5mm wire I think, never tried. Anyway, point is it's still a bastard to move about, the stinger is short etc. If I was buying from scratch I think I'd buy one of the shoebox inverter welders and maybe, if I felt rich, a Readywelder to run off of it as well. WRT heavy shipping welding, different story, of course big MIG and submerged arc works there. We're talking about plate for small boats here, 3mm to 5mm hull plate, structural sections between 3mm and 25mm at the outside. Stick is the most flexible and cheapest. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I'm not a welder by trade either, but have had extensive experience in > plant maintenance. Many years ago I did a significant amount of Mig > for structural /high stress machine parts. I can attest to the > ability of mig to do an excellent job. The problem is the equipment > used at the time wasn't suitable for structural end of do it your self > boat building. Nothing reasonably portable is. That doesn't mean > there isn't uses for a portable Mig in home boat building either, just > that a number of factors work against Mig for the whole job. > > So I'm actually sitting on both sides of the fence here. I suspect > that it would be virtually impossible to complete a boat build without a > stick welder. A mig welder though could be helpful. All of this is > subject to change, if one is building indoors and has three phase, a > good mig would be very productive in a properly set up work area. > > Dave > > > BrdbMc@... wrote: > > > > In the shop i worked in it was quiet normal to MIG boiler plate up to 10" > > thick,the wire was about 3/16 dia. Test pieces never gave cause for > > concern. > > I a not welder by trade but i did a lot for my own use.I was shown how to > > MIG weld and spent time practising in shop time. > > > > > > > | 12256|12242|2006-12-23 04:53:55|peter_d_wiley|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|Actually plate can be rolled in all directions, it just takes more equipment, which means more money. Look at English wheels. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with pipe or > rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many problems. > Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. > A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the waterline. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in > > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one question > > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled sheet > > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost a bit > > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the > > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would be > > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a semicircle. > I'm > > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has been > > discussed here. > > > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape with a > > more or less squared off stern. > > > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the simplicity of > > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > > > Dave > > > | 12257|12108|2006-12-23 05:05:08|peter_d_wiley|Re: Lazy Bones Update|So, in essence you had a friend with a property like I have, who allowed you to do work on your boat for free. That works well if you can find such a person, but in my opinion that comes into the same category as the owner who'll finance his boat for you. They undoubtedly exist but they aren't common and not everyone will be able to follow this course. I have an excellent shop with power & many woodworking & metalworking tools, all of which I own outright. For me to follow your advice would be crazy, ditto for others in my position. I can get more done in a day in my shop than most people could in a week working alongside or anchored out. Getting out of a commercial yard, sure - you're paying for the space you occupy. I know what we pay for dry dock on a big ship and we depart ASAP. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > My current boat was launched as a bare hull and deck. I finished the > detail on the beach, where a friend had 220 power and a buzzbox. In > the 22 years she's been afloat I've never paid to tie to a dock, > including during the finishing time. If I were to do it again I'd buy > a cheap generator ( like the chinese 950 watt, 169 dollar one I've > been using the last year). I'd put an engine in her to drive an > alternator welder and finish the detail in some remote anchorage , > with no wharfinger to tell me what I may or may not do on my own boat. > Once the shell was launched I had no bills nor deadlines and could > finish her at my liesure , far more comfortably than in a yard , with > monthly bills coming down the pike and all the thast make getting > anything done ina day extremely difficult. > I did a lot of my interior work in a quiet lagoon near a lake and got > more done there in an hour than I could in a day in the city where > people could find me.It was a pleasue rather thana chore. I'd work in > the mornings until it got too hot, then climb the hill to the lake nd > swim and siesta on the beach till sundown . I spent about $15 a week > doing this. > Screw the yard. Couldn't get outa there fast enough. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > How do you buy first without any assets or any money in the bank? > > > Building can be a pay as you go and learn whats in the boat as it > > > goes in, interest free. > > > > Yes, I agree. I can't see how the borrow money caper can work. No > credit record, pay thru > > the nose for a loan if you can get one at all. Vendor finance - I > guess the acid test is if the > > owner of LAZY BONES is prepared to sell to someone sans credit > record, income or assets > > and on what terms. I'm not interested in that boat and I don't > qualify anyway - I own > > waterfront real estate outright. It was cheap when I bought it..... > > > > > Resist the bullshit that the boat has to be absolutely finished > > > before you can get some enjoyment out of it. A bare shell with a rig > > > in it can be sailed and enjoyed, giving you more time to make other > > > decisions. It's easier to step off a dock while building an interior > > > than having to climb a ladder every time. > > > > Having done this, I disagree. The problem with working alongside a > dock is, unless you > > own the dock, having your tools handy is pretty unlikely and unless > you have all your tools > > there all the time, you'll be doing a lot of cursing & driving to > fetch what you forgot. Then > > there are power issues, storage of supplies etc etc. Give me my own > premises where > > everything is to hand and I can work undisturbed. Sure, finish off > the fiddly bits later, but I > > wouldn't do any serious woodwork alongside if I could do it in the > yard. One of the things > > about working undercover, if possible, is that you can build a > raised platform and move > > the tools etc up a level, minimising the up/down all the time. Which > is what I plan on > > doing. 4 sheets of ply gives you an 8' by 16' work area. > > > > On the subject of walking up & down ladders, I definitely agree. Try > working on a freighter > > in dry dock replacing transducers. Dock floor to top, then down > inside the hull to the bow > > space, 6' away from where you started, then back again. Repeat as > required..... I'm a hell > > of a lot fitter at the end of a couple weeks in dock than at the start. > > > | 12258|12242|2006-12-23 07:12:47|Gerd|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|Dave, as Brent already mentioned, a rolled sheet with a curve in would not do for Origami, where you would want to let the sheets develop their own natural form under tension. Because the folding comes so easy, and because in any case you will get a bit of smooth compound curve, there is no need either. Pre-rolled sheets are used in the co called radius chine method, where you basically build a hard-chine hull with the chine corners being replaced with sections cut from a rolled sheet of steel. Dudley Dix has a couple of very nice designs for that, looks almost like full round hulls, sweet, but although a lot easier than to build than true round bilge hulls, it is still quite a bit more work than pulling an origami shell together. Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with pipe or > rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many problems. > Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. > A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the waterline. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in > > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one question > > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled sheet > > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost a bit > > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the > > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would be > > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a semicircle. > I'm > > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has been > > discussed here. > > > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape with a > > more or less squared off stern. > > > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the simplicity of > > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > > > Dave > > > | 12259|3465|2006-12-23 11:30:27|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel Mast|Aaron, Helium is a very expensive gas and very hard to hold because it's molecules are so small they diffuse right through steel. Argon would be the gas of choice, which would prevent corrosion if it stayed in there. You'd have to monitor that closely though, a tiny leak and it's gone eventually. Actually water in the mast won't cause corrosion beyond a certain point. Once the dissolved oxygen in water has oxidized all the steel it can, a miniscule amount, the corrosion stops. This is why it is important to fix leaks on hot water boilers and steam boilers. Making up for the leaks with fresh water brings in more oxygen. So just welding the mast closed airtight without doing anything else will do the job. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron" To: Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Mast I was wondering if purging a steel mast with hellium would cause bad effects? I think it would help offset the weight of the steel. The only thing I can think of is the fitting on each end you would need to purge through. Aaron | 12260|12244|2006-12-23 13:57:20|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Merry Christmas|On Fri, Dec 22, 2006 at 06:12:27PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > Hope all u builders, buyers, and dreamers have a great Christmas. May > the new year bring the origami group health, lower steel and aluminum > prices and lots of marine store bankruptcy sales. > May u all launch in 07. I'll sign on for that. :) Best wishes to everyone, and may your holidays be merry, and the upcoming year successful and full of joy! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12261|12242|2006-12-23 14:09:46|David A. Frantz|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|I thin I'm beginning to understand. My thought was that you would still try to get the compound curves the Origami way. The cuts and darts just being in the center of the U shape. Fattening of the ship in the center could be done in much the same way, that is pushing out from the insides. The thought is that this would lead to a hull with a little bit of rocker. I can see now how pulling in the bow would be very difficult if not impossible. Dave Gerd wrote: > > Dave, as Brent already mentioned, a rolled sheet with a curve in > would not do for Origami, where you would want to let the sheets > develop their own natural form under tension. Because the folding > comes so easy, and because in any case you will get a bit of smooth > compound curve, there is no need either. > > Pre-rolled sheets are used in the co called radius chine method, > where you basically build a hard-chine hull with the chine corners > being replaced with sections cut from a rolled sheet of steel. Dudley > Dix has a couple of very nice designs for that, looks almost like > full round hulls, sweet, but although a lot easier than to build > than true round bilge hulls, it is still quite a bit more work than > pulling an origami shell together. > > Gerd > the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with pipe or > > rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many > problems. > > Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. > > A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the > waterline. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. Frantz" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in > > > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one > question > > > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled > sheet > > > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost > a bit > > > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the > > > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would > be > > > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a > semicircle. > > I'm > > > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has > been > > > discussed here. > > > > > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape > with a > > > more or less squared off stern. > > > > > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the > simplicity of > > > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > | 12262|12262|2006-12-23 16:39:12|mickeyolaf|Biodiesel|I've twice now filled up my truck with biodiesel. It turned out not to be a wise decision as my fuel filter plugged up and I had to replace it within 2 months for $70. I can't say for certain it was the biodiesel. Maybe the vender had dirty tanks but I'm not taking the chance again as I suspect it was the b/diesel. I know for sure I won't be filling my boat's tank with b/diesel. My boat's fuel tank is 200 gallons. In hindsight I should have divided it up. I wonder if it is smarter to just put what I need in it or fill it up and treat the fuel with biocide and preservative/stabilizer etc. I know I won't use 200 gallons in a year. I put a pair of "racors" on the fuel line before the Yanmar filter. The "racors" have a capacity of 125 gallons an hour. I don't know what the fuel pump puts out but the thought was that the unused returning fuel to the tank would be filtered and if I ran the ironsail long enought I would be filtering the fuel tank constantly. I don't know if it was a dumb idea or not. I wonder if I put a higher capacity electric fuel pump before the Yanmar pump I could bypass the engine and filter the fuel throught the "racors" and directly back to the tank whenever I wanted to clean the fuel up. Food for thought. Smart or not?| 12263|12242|2006-12-23 16:56:21|peter_d_wiley|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|It would be very difficult to do what you want, and I certainly wouldn't try it. The best thing to do is live within the limits of a particular design, skill set & tooling if you want to make reasonably fast progress. Every one of the above, if you push the boundaries, things get more difficult and take longer. All of us push one of those some of the time, of course, but I prefer not to push more than 1 at a time. If you want a round bilge hull by all means build one, it has been done many times. Just accept that it's gonna take a lot longer than the origami hull. PDW --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I thin I'm beginning to understand. My thought was that you would > still try to get the compound curves the Origami way. The cuts and > darts just being in the center of the U shape. Fattening of the ship > in the center could be done in much the same way, that is pushing out > from the insides. The thought is that this would lead to a hull with > a little bit of rocker. > > I can see now how pulling in the bow would be very difficult if not > impossible. > > Dave > > Gerd wrote: > > > > Dave, as Brent already mentioned, a rolled sheet with a curve in > > would not do for Origami, where you would want to let the sheets > > develop their own natural form under tension. Because the folding > > comes so easy, and because in any case you will get a bit of smooth > > compound curve, there is no need either. > > > > Pre-rolled sheets are used in the co called radius chine method, > > where you basically build a hard-chine hull with the chine corners > > being replaced with sections cut from a rolled sheet of steel. Dudley > > Dix has a couple of very nice designs for that, looks almost like > > full round hulls, sweet, but although a lot easier than to build > > than true round bilge hulls, it is still quite a bit more work than > > pulling an origami shell together. > > > > Gerd > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with pipe or > > > rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many > > problems. > > > Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. > > > A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the > > waterline. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "David A. Frantz" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > > > > > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in > > > > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one > > question > > > > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled > > sheet > > > > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost > > a bit > > > > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the > > > > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would > > be > > > > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a > > semicircle. > > > I'm > > > > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has > > been > > > > discussed here. > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape > > with a > > > > more or less squared off stern. > > > > > > > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the > > simplicity of > > > > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12264|12262|2006-12-23 17:43:35|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Biodiesel|On Sat, Dec 23, 2006 at 09:36:58PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I've twice now filled up my truck with biodiesel. It turned out not to > be a wise decision as my fuel filter plugged up and I had to replace > it within 2 months for $70. > I can't say for certain it was the biodiesel. Maybe the vender had > dirty tanks but I'm not taking the chance again as I suspect it was > the b/diesel. I know for sure I won't be filling my boat's tank with > b/diesel. Could have been anything, really. I'm not saying that you should risk something you don't want to, but I don't know that I'd blame biodiesel itself as the first possibility: I know several people who have used it, and none of them had the slightest problem. > My boat's fuel tank is 200 gallons. In hindsight I should have divided > it up. I wonder if it is smarter to just put what I need in it or fill > it up and treat the fuel with biocide and preservative/stabilizer etc. In a warm climate, Biobor (or equivalent) is a must-have for any tank that you're not going to use every day. The stuff is expensive, but two ounces takes care of my 130gl. tank. That lasts me for a good long while. > I know I won't use 200 gallons in a year. > I put a pair of "racors" on the fuel line before the Yanmar filter. > The "racors" have a capacity of 125 gallons an hour. I don't know what > the fuel pump puts out but the thought was that the unused returning > fuel to the tank would be filtered and if I ran the ironsail long > enought I would be filtering the fuel tank constantly. I don't know if > it was a dumb idea or not. > I wonder if I put a higher capacity electric fuel pump before the > Yanmar pump I could bypass the engine and filter the fuel throught > the "racors" and directly back to the tank whenever I wanted to clean > the fuel up. Food for thought. Smart or not? A local sailor (well, kinda sailor... he's been "building" his ferrocement boat for over 30 years, and still doesn't have a mast up) put together a very nice fuel system that I'm thinking of copying at some future point: he's got dual tanks (which I won't be copying), and each of them goes to a valve which directs the fuel to either one of a pair of really big Racors. After that, he uses the same type of valve to combine them (this allows him to change or drain a filter while the engine is running.) He's also got the rig that you're talking about - just past the second valve, he's rigged an automotive electric pump that returns to the tank. He never has to pay anyone to "scrub" his fuel, something that's very popular here in Florida. I once had a fuel line clog up with algae when I was working through a gale in the Gulf Stream, on my way to the States from Bermuda - the engine would stall every once in a while, and then either I or my crewman would go diving into the engine compartment with a chopstick (those and bamboo skewers are very useful tools on board, I kid you not), unscrew the fuel fitting from the tank, and prod the gelatinous crap out of the valve until the fuel flowed free; this is all while the boat is rolling like mad - those short Gulf Stream rollers blanket your sails when they're over 20' high, and you *need* power to either drive or heave to. Probably had to do that a good dozen times before it all washed out. Chances are that running a "scrub cycle" for about 12 hours would have cleaned all that crap out before the passage - but I didn't have anything like that rigged. So, in my opinion - yeah. Very smart. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12265|12242|2006-12-23 18:48:35|Gerd|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|Dave, the best advise I can give is to get Alex's Video... leaves no question unanswered ;-) - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > I thin I'm beginning to understand. My thought was that you would > still try to get the compound curves the Origami way. The cuts and > darts just being in the center of the U shape. Fattening of the ship > in the center could be done in much the same way, that is pushing out > from the insides. The thought is that this would lead to a hull with > a little bit of rocker. > > I can see now how pulling in the bow would be very difficult if not > impossible. > > Dave > > Gerd wrote: > > > > Dave, as Brent already mentioned, a rolled sheet with a curve in > > would not do for Origami, where you would want to let the sheets > > develop their own natural form under tension. Because the folding > > comes so easy, and because in any case you will get a bit of smooth > > compound curve, there is no need either. > > > > Pre-rolled sheets are used in the co called radius chine method, > > where you basically build a hard-chine hull with the chine corners > > being replaced with sections cut from a rolled sheet of steel. Dudley > > Dix has a couple of very nice designs for that, looks almost like > > full round hulls, sweet, but although a lot easier than to build > > than true round bilge hulls, it is still quite a bit more work than > > pulling an origami shell together. > > > > Gerd > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with pipe or > > > rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many > > problems. > > > Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. > > > A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the > > waterline. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "David A. Frantz" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > > > > > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat building in > > > > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one > > question > > > > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or rolled > > sheet > > > > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost > > a bit > > > > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating the > > > > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would > > be > > > > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a > > semicircle. > > > I'm > > > > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has > > been > > > > discussed here. > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U shape > > with a > > > > more or less squared off stern. > > > > > > > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the > > simplicity of > > > > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12266|12204|2006-12-23 19:03:50|Mike|Re: mig's?|Unless someone has several significant welding projects planned for a future date, it seems to me that, the expense of using a wire process would severely detract from your construction funds. If that is not a problem, I'd suggest dualshield(FCAW w/gas shielding). SMAW(stick), however, comes with it's own set of disadvantages. rod selection should be made with a consideration of operator skill level, weld machine capabilities base metal properties and production values. Example: I have an old Hobart "Mega-Arc 300" portable welder. If I planned to invest my savings in my project and not in my equipment, I wouldn't bother with the purchase of a "suitcase" for running wire, as well as the bottle/regulator/hoses/cv interface module/etc. which I would want for running flux-core. I'd use a combination of 7018, 7024 and stainless rods. Why not 6010/11? Aside from the fact that the characteristics of this family of rods makes for slow welding - not production - I have been able to observe other fundamental inadequacies, most recently on the refit of two provincial ferries. During the 2005/2006 refit of the M.V. "Queen of Surrey", we were inserting steel panels into the "window" cutouts on the car decks. Because of the amount of rain we were experiencing, many of the welders switched from 7018 to 6011, for tacking the inserts. As there were some significant gaps between the insert & the existing material, 6011 made "filling in the cracks", especially on vertical seams, much easier. On the second morning after many welders switched to 6011, our chargehand made it clear that the next welder to use 6011 for tacking the inserts would be going home. When I arrived at the area where I was working, I had a glance at the window inserts nearby. Many of the tacks had cracked, unable to sustain the stress required to hold the panels in. A few days ago, I boarded the Queen of Alberni to continue replacing some deck plates. The previous shift had tacked in the insert which we had left, with 6011, and several tacks had failed. While re- tacking the insert, prior to welding, I had time to consider the stresses which we place on weldments, when using the origami method of construction. My point is not to place fear into the hearts of those whom have used 6010/11 for building their hulls, rather, to suggest that the resultant properties of a structure welded with 7018 are superior. When considering cost, though you get less rods for your $, each 7018 rod will lay a bead of approx. 3x the length of a 6010/11 rod. In the end, you will spend less on consumables & cover a greater linear distance with the 7018. Merry Christmas, everyone! Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Your course will be 95 % practice and 5% theory. You can get your > practice with a buzzbox and a pile of scrap , or building detail bits > and pieces and anchors. You can get the theory from the library, > enough for stick welding. > How does even the worst weld compare with a copper fastening every 6 > inches in cedar planking, or chopper gun fibreglass? You'll never > break a stick weld on the size of boats we are dealing with. In order > to leak a pinhole on the outside weld will have to match perfectly > with a pinhole on the inside, and also match equal pinholes thru 8 > coats of epoxy tar. Any epoxy seeping into such pinholes would form a > permanent, unremovable epoxy rivet. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" > wrote: > > > > I have to disagree to an extent here. Mig or Flux core has its > place > > in ship building, the problem is that you won't be doing mig welding on > > a boat with a cheap Mig welder. That and you need the required skill > > to execute. If you are going to build an aluminum boat I'm not sure > > that I'd want to even consider the alternative which would be TIG. > > The reality is that most weld shops have an assortment of welders to > > address the different needs of the projects at hand. There is > > certainly the potential for enough sheet metal work in a boat to > justify > > having a mig on hand. To do structural quality MIG though will > > require a significant investment in welding hardware and would be very > > hard to justify. > > > > Even stick can be an issue in the hands of a novice. Here I agree > > with the people posting about the need to take classes and actually > > learn to weld before building something your life will depend on. One > > of the most important things to realize/learn is that the various Mig > > manufactures are very charitable with the ratings on their small Mig > > welders. Having the rating of a mig welder may help people > understand > > there real capability. > > > > Dave > > > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think we're all agreed that MIG is a waste of time & money for > > > amateur boatbuilding. I > > > don't dispute or disagree with anything you say, it confirms my own > > > observations & > > > experience. > > > > > > | 12267|3465|2006-12-23 19:14:03|Mike|Re: Steel Mast|Aaron Assuming it didn't leak, I would think that the improvement would be insignificant, therefore, not worth the effort. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I was wondering if purging a steel mast with hellium would cause bad > effects? I think it would help offset the weight of the steel. The only > thing I can think of is the fitting on each end you would need to purge > through. > Aaron > | 12268|12262|2006-12-23 19:30:01|jim dorey|Re: Biodiesel|mickeyolaf wrote: > > > I've twice now filled up my truck with biodiesel. It turned out not to > be a wise decision as my fuel filter plugged up and I had to replace > it within 2 months for $70. is there any rubber in your trucks fuel system? maybe get a filter with a replaceable element? some biodiesel needs heat to get it moving, the fuel pipe from the main tank running around the exhaust header to warm it fast. a small tank of regular diesel to start and stop on, thereby making sure there's no bio stuck in the filter. just curious is all.| 12269|12244|2006-12-23 19:59:58|Carl Volkwein|Re: Merry Christmas|Thank-you, I second the lower steel prices, but I have a question. Here(West Virginia) I have a pile of steel for sale for $500.00, I think it's "Cor-Ten" but I'm not sure, they are three oil storage tanks, I wasn't going to build an origami boat, but a frameless Bruse Roberts "Spray 22. And I would start with a wooden frame-work with stringers, then weld the metal over that, and I was wondering if the pre-curved "oil tanks" would be eaisier to fit, also if cor-ten is a good choice of material to work with? Anyway it's here, and only $500, and probably have some left over, the sides are curved, but the tops and bottoms are flat, if i deside to go with these, I still need to move them, I don't know, I see them every day on my way to work. "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: On Fri, Dec 22, 2006 at 06:12:27PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > Hope all u builders, buyers, and dreamers have a great Christmas. May > the new year bring the origami group health, lower steel and aluminum > prices and lots of marine store bankruptcy sales. > May u all launch in 07. I'll sign on for that. :) Best wishes to everyone, and may your holidays be merry, and the upcoming year successful and full of joy! -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12270|12244|2006-12-24 15:05:06|deniswig|Re: Merry Christmas|a happy christmas to all from kilkenny ireland , the multihull steel dream has got much worse check out""" helleman dutch steel trimaran for sale "" all the best from the steel boat heretic .denis buggy > | 12271|12244|2006-12-24 18:20:27|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Merry Christmas|On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 08:04:37PM -0000, deniswig wrote: > a happy christmas to all from kilkenny ireland , the multihull steel > dream has got much worse check out""" helleman dutch steel trimaran for > sale "" all the best from the steel boat heretic .denis buggy > > I take it you mean this: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1478110/0 It's pretty sweet-looking - but given the price, there's better ways to spend that money: build an Origami boat, bank the remaining $300k, and spend the rest of your life cruising on the interest. :) Nollaig shona (Merry Christmas!) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12272|12242|2006-12-24 18:51:15|David A. Frantz|Re: Pipe as a starting point on a Origami boat?|Over the last year I've been picking up all sorts of boat building books (say that fast 3 times), no video yet though. I'm actually considering for a first effort of a much smaller craft, not much more than a dingy. There are many interesting waters around here that would not be accessible to a large boat and good for after work or short weekend jaunts. The thing that caught my eye about the Origami method is that it seem practical for people on a low budget and is relatively quick. For small craft though it doesn't seem to be practical unless Aluminum is used. In any event I've learned a lot in the few months that I've been on this list. Problem is there is a lot more to learn. Merry Christmas Everyone Dave Gerd wrote: > > > Dave, the best advise I can give is to get Alex's Video... leaves no > question unanswered ;-) > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "David A. Frantz" > > wrote: > > > > I thin I'm beginning to understand. My thought was that you > would > > still try to get the compound curves the Origami way. The cuts > and > > darts just being in the center of the U shape. Fattening of the > ship > > in the center could be done in much the same way, that is pushing > out > > from the insides. The thought is that this would lead to a hull > with > > a little bit of rocker. > > > > I can see now how pulling in the bow would be very difficult if not > > impossible. > > > > Dave > > > > Gerd wrote: > > > > > > Dave, as Brent already mentioned, a rolled sheet with a curve in > > > would not do for Origami, where you would want to let the sheets > > > develop their own natural form under tension. Because the folding > > > comes so easy, and because in any case you will get a bit of > smooth > > > compound curve, there is no need either. > > > > > > Pre-rolled sheets are used in the co called radius chine method, > > > where you basically build a hard-chine hull with the chine corners > > > being replaced with sections cut from a rolled sheet of steel. > Dudley > > > Dix has a couple of very nice designs for that, looks almost like > > > full round hulls, sweet, but although a lot easier than to build > > > than true round bilge hulls, it is still quite a bit more work > than > > > pulling an origami shell together. > > > > > > Gerd > > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > As plate can only be rolled in one direction, starting with > pipe or > > > > rolled sections would offer no advantages while adding many > > > problems. > > > > Plate with a slight compound shape would be an advantage. > > > > A squared off stern would be a huge drag if it were below the > > > waterline. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > , "David A. Frantz" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you may know I'm rather new to this forum and boat > building in > > > > > general. The Origami approach is very interesting but one > > > question > > > > > has come to mind and that is the thought of using pipe or > rolled > > > sheet > > > > > as a starting point for the boats. While it may very well cost > > > a bit > > > > > more it would seem to be a far easier approach to fabricating > the > > > > > hull. Bringing the bow together might be a problem as it would > > > be > > > > > very interesting to layout the cuts and darts on a > > > semicircle. > > > > I'm > > > > > not sure if such an approach has ever been tried nor if it has > > > been > > > > > discussed here. > > > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking about here is a boat hull that is of a U > shape > > > with a > > > > > more or less squared off stern. > > > > > > > > > > Note that I've been reading about boat building and the > > > simplicity of > > > > > the approach seemed to stand out for this type of hull. > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12273|12244|2006-12-25 02:46:41|dove2steel|Merry Christmas|Merry Christmas to all! Wishing you fair winds in the New Year| 12274|12274|2006-12-25 03:34:56|harrytams|Origami steel plans - classic motor (tug,trawler, dutch barge)|Have been very interested in thr origami method to build motor powered liveaboard with classic lines. I'm new to this forum. Have scanned the topics but it appears that sailboats are the main type of boat for this building method, or, I don't know how to navigate this site. Looking to build something around the 28-40 foot size as tug and breakfast in semi sheltered waters here in Tasmania. Can anyone point me in the direction toward obtaining plans useing the origami method?| 12275|12274|2006-12-25 03:52:33|Leif Thomsen|SV: [origamiboats] Origami steel plans - classic motor (tug,trawler|Have a look at Gerds 36 origami motor boat at: http://www.yago-project.com /Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För harrytams Skickat: den 25 december 2006 09:34 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Origami steel plans - classic motor (tug,trawler, dutch barge) "Have been very interested in thr origami method to build motor powered liveaboard with classic lines. I'm new to this forum. Have scanned the topics but it appears that sailboats are the main type of boat for this building method, or, I don't know how to navigate this site. Looking to build something around the 28-40 foot size as tug and breakfast in semi sheltered waters here in Tasmania. Can anyone point me in the direction toward obtaining plans useing the origami method?" To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 1882 (20061124) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com| 12276|12274|2006-12-25 04:03:53|Aaron Williams|Re: SV: [origamiboats] Origami steel plans - classic motor (tug,tra|Go look at the Rover 36 when you get there. Gerd it look like its gonna be a nice boat! Leif Thomsen wrote: Have a look at Gerds 36 origami motor boat at: http://www.yago-project.com /Leif -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] För harrytams Skickat: den 25 december 2006 09:34 Till: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Ämne: [origamiboats] Origami steel plans - classic motor (tug,trawler, dutch barge) "Have been very interested in thr origami method to build motor powered liveaboard with classic lines. I'm new to this forum. Have scanned the topics but it appears that sailboats are the main type of boat for this building method, or, I don't know how to navigate this site. Looking to build something around the 28-40 foot size as tug and breakfast in semi sheltered waters here in Tasmania. Can anyone point me in the direction toward obtaining plans useing the origami method?" To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links __________ NOD32 1882 (20061124) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. http://www.nod32.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12277|12274|2006-12-25 08:16:00|goho20022|Re: Origami steel plans - classic motor (tug,trawler, dutch barge)|Greg is also showing some concepts of trawler-like origami designs. Have a look at www.origamimagic.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "harrytams" wrote: > > Have been very interested in thr origami method to build motor powered > liveaboard with classic lines. I'm new to this forum. Have scanned the > topics but it appears that sailboats are the main type of boat for > this building method, or, I don't know how to navigate this site. > Looking to build something around the 28-40 foot size as tug and > breakfast in semi sheltered waters here in Tasmania. Can anyone point > me in the direction toward obtaining plans useing the origami method? > | 12278|12274|2006-12-25 11:46:49|Carl Anderson|Paint coverage on inside of BS36|Hello all & Merry Christmas, I am wondering what kind of coverage per gallon folks have been getting on the interior of a BS36. Just trying to figure out how many gallons per coat on the inside so I can get enough paint for the number of coats I am planning on. I realize that it depends on the viscosity of the paint but some "real world" figures from those who have done this would greatly be appreciated. Thanks, Carl Anderson SV Moonflower of Moab SV Twisted| 12279|12262|2006-12-25 17:00:08|SHANE ROTHWELL|Biodiesel|Merry Xmas one and all! Re: Biodiesel. Mickey, what you got WAS defiitely biodiesel! I've done a helluvulot of research on it and build it (tho admitedly my system is in storage for the present whilst I fiddle with backhoe, build house & shop etc...) Biodiesel is a mild solvent, much much much cleaner than diesel. what happened in your engine is that the biodiesel cleaned up all the shit in your tanks, lines, lift pump =everything. You can pretty much expect to have to change your filters again really soon at least twice as all the rest of the shit runs through your system. So, if you switch back to regular dino-diesel you will just re-filth up your whole system. If you want to preserve your injection pump, keep using biodiesel as the lubricity is far better than even diesel with lots of sulphur (if you use that low sulfer garbage, dump about 250cc of clean crank case oil into the tank (per 50-60 litres) to keep the injectn pump lubed or the lack of lube (sulpher) can nuke your injectn pump, espcially if it is self lubed by the fuel. or cheaper & much more environmentally friendly, add 2% biodiesel to keep lubricity up & keep system clean. If you stick to the biodiesel you will, aside from reducing your emmisions drastically, improve power with betrter lubricity will smooth things out and the cetene boost will give you more umph per litre. if you dont wnat to go whole hog & go 100% biodiesel, even 2% biodiesel will improve lubricity big time and help with smoothign out the performance of your donk. Bummer about the high cost of the filters but you must have noticed a differance in performance? How much did you pay per litre for the biodiesel? Cheers, Shane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12280|12262|2006-12-25 18:51:27|John Fisher|Re: Biodiesel|As some one who runs B50 most of the time in my van I would say that it was the bio diesel that gave you issues. Bio is more of a solvent that petro diesel and can break loose a lot of stuff in the fuel system leading to filter clogging. This is a known issue when changing over. John -------Original Message------- From: mickeyolaf Date: 12/23/2006 3:17:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Biodiesel I've twice now filled up my truck with biodiesel. It turned out not to be a wise decision as my fuel filter plugged up and I had to replace it within 2 months for $70. I can't say for certain it was the biodiesel.Recent Activity 11New Members 1New Links Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS Yacht financing Motor yacht Yacht delivery Vancouver island lodging Sailing yacht Yahoo! News World News Get the latest world news now Y! GeoCities Share Your Passion Join the web's lar- gest community. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others.. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12281|12262|2006-12-25 23:20:08|mickeyolaf|Re: Biodiesel|I believe it was .73 or .78US/liter. I have parts shipped to Point Roberts, Wa. to avoid brokerage fees. So twice I filled up there with b/diesel. I soon had issues with my Duramax diesel. I changed the filter. Trouble again. A mercury test showed the filter plugged up in two months. The other fuel I was using was Shell diesel from Courtenay on V/Island from a busy station which has never caused problems. I had 3 years of no trouble with dino diesel so will probably stick with it. I just bought some Racor biocide for my boats tank and will put some in the truck just in case I have a problem there. On a cooler subject Yanmar sent me a letter advising me to change the Dexcool every year in my 4JH3E to avoid cavitation. I always thought u could leave dexcool in for 3 years. I quess I have to follow their instructions or loose the warranty. This boat building business is expensive!!!! It would be an intersting study to see if over a lifetime who spends more. A man who builds boats or a man who chases women. Both seem to be finacial disasters. In my next life I'm going to get a really good dog (dogs don't want diamonds or credit cards or 50 pairs of shoes), and whenever I need to go boating I'm going to ride the ferry til the urge is gone. I'll save millions. I gotta share this joke with u all. This is cute. A three year old boy was examining his testicles while taking a bath. "Mum, he asked, "are these my brains?" "Not yet,"she replied. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Merry Xmas one and all! > > Re: Biodiesel. > > Mickey, what you got WAS defiitely biodiesel! I've > done a helluvulot of research on it and build it (tho > admitedly my system is in storage for the present > whilst I fiddle with backhoe, build house & shop > etc...) > > Biodiesel is a mild solvent, much much much cleaner > than diesel. what happened in your engine is that the > biodiesel cleaned up all the shit in your tanks, > lines, lift pump =everything. You can pretty much > expect to have to change your filters again really > soon at least twice as all the rest of the shit runs > through your system. > > So, if you switch back to regular dino-diesel you will > just re-filth up your whole system. If you want to > preserve your injection pump, keep using biodiesel as > the lubricity is far better than even diesel with lots > of sulphur (if you use that low sulfer garbage, dump > about 250cc of clean crank case oil into the tank (per > 50-60 litres) to keep the injectn pump lubed or the > lack of lube (sulpher) can nuke your injectn pump, > espcially if it is self lubed by the fuel. or cheaper > & much more environmentally friendly, add 2% biodiesel > to keep lubricity up & keep system clean. > > If you stick to the biodiesel you will, aside from > reducing your emmisions drastically, improve power > with betrter lubricity will smooth things out and the > cetene boost will give you more umph per litre. > > if you dont wnat to go whole hog & go 100% biodiesel, > even 2% biodiesel will improve lubricity big time and > help with smoothign out the performance of your donk. > > Bummer about the high cost of the filters but you must > have noticed a differance in performance? > > How much did you pay per litre for the biodiesel? > > Cheers, > Shane > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > | 12282|12282|2006-12-26 07:55:26|jonathanswef|Rover 36|Gerd, What progress on the Rover 36? Tom, I notice you have a flat bar on the inside of the stem; that is quite a tight angle to weld there, how did you do it? Best wishes to all, Jonathan.| 12283|12274|2006-12-26 12:43:28|John Fisher|Re: Paint coverage on inside of BS36|The paint should have coverage figures or you can figure it on % solids and density. If you know the volume of paint you have per can you can convert that to so many sq ft at a wet film thickness, then multiply by the % solids to get your dry film thickness. 1 gallon = .133 ft^3, so 15 sq ft per gallon @ .100" wet film, then figure 30 to 50% solids by volume gives a dry film of .050" to .030". John -------Original Message------- From: Carl Anderson Date: 12/25/2006 10:24:12 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Paint coverage on inside of BS36 Hello all & Merry Christmas, I am wondering what kind of coverage per gallon folks have been getting on the interior of a BS36. Just trying to figure out how many gallons per coat on the inside so I can get enough paint for the number of coats I am planning on. I realize that it depends on the viscosity of the paint but some "real world" figures from those who have done this would greatly be appreciated. Thanks, Carl Anderson SV Moonflower of Moab SV Twisted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12284|12262|2006-12-26 19:34:42|Wesley Cox|Re: Biodiesel|Boats or chasing women, which is more expensive? Good question. I placed a want ad for an inexpensive aluminum canoe in the local paper last summer. I bought a 17' in nearly new condition for $250 US, a great deal I thought. I took a few minutes to modify an aluminum/wood side motor mount I made years ago for a different canoe, made a long #10 wire in order to put 2 #27 batteries in the front for decent trim and a 30 lb. thrust motor at the back with me and it's been the most fun boat I've ever had, using it on nearby shallow rivers with little to no boat wakes. Even with 2 people on board, the range with 2 batteries is excellent and they add some ballast. I'm planning to make a couple of small multi-chine rowing dories for playing in the huge shallow natural harbor of Lake Michigan next to where I live. I also have 2 big dogs and though they cost more than small boats, they *are* a bargain for what they give back. ----- Original Message ----- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Biodiesel I believe it was .73 or .78US/liter. I have parts shipped to Point Roberts, Wa. to avoid brokerage fees. So twice I filled up there with b/diesel. I soon had issues with my Duramax diesel. I changed the filter. Trouble again. A mercury test showed the filter plugged up in two months. The other fuel I was using was Shell diesel from Courtenay on V/Island from a busy station which has never caused problems. I had 3 years of no trouble with dino diesel so will probably stick with it. I just bought some Racor biocide for my boats tank and will put some in the truck just in case I have a problem there. On a cooler subject Yanmar sent me a letter advising me to change the Dexcool every year in my 4JH3E to avoid cavitation. I always thought u could leave dexcool in for 3 years. I quess I have to follow their instructions or loose the warranty. This boat building business is expensive!!!! It would be an intersting study to see if over a lifetime who spends more. A man who builds boats or a man who chases women. Both seem to be finacial disasters. In my next life I'm going to get a really good dog (dogs don't want diamonds or credit cards or 50 pairs of shoes), and whenever I need to go boating I'm going to ride the ferry til the urge is gone. I'll save millions. I gotta share this joke with u all. This is cute. A three year old boy was examining his testicles while taking a bath. "Mum, he asked, "are these my brains?" "Not yet,"she replied. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Merry Xmas one and all! > > Re: Biodiesel. > > Mickey, what you got WAS defiitely biodiesel! I've > done a helluvulot of research on it and build it (tho > admitedly my system is in storage for the present > whilst I fiddle with backhoe, build house & shop > etc...) > > Biodiesel is a mild solvent, much much much cleaner > than diesel. what happened in your engine is that the > biodiesel cleaned up all the shit in your tanks, > lines, lift pump =everything. You can pretty much > expect to have to change your filters again really > soon at least twice as all the rest of the shit runs > through your system. > > So, if you switch back to regular dino-diesel you will > just re-filth up your whole system. If you want to > preserve your injection pump, keep using biodiesel as > the lubricity is far better than even diesel with lots > of sulphur (if you use that low sulfer garbage, dump > about 250cc of clean crank case oil into the tank (per > 50-60 litres) to keep the injectn pump lubed or the > lack of lube (sulpher) can nuke your injectn pump, > espcially if it is self lubed by the fuel. or cheaper > & much more environmentally friendly, add 2% biodiesel > to keep lubricity up & keep system clean. > > If you stick to the biodiesel you will, aside from > reducing your emmisions drastically, improve power > with betrter lubricity will smooth things out and the > cetene boost will give you more umph per litre. > > if you dont wnat to go whole hog & go 100% biodiesel, > even 2% biodiesel will improve lubricity big time and > help with smoothign out the performance of your donk. > > Bummer about the high cost of the filters but you must > have noticed a differance in performance? > > How much did you pay per litre for the biodiesel? > > Cheers, > Shane > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12285|12108|2006-12-26 21:11:15|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>> buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under >>almost any circumstances The Bones paid for herself, and then some. Over 20 years, she put maybe $200k net in our pockets. This helped pay for our cruising and house. It was hard work, we learned a lot, and had a blast along the way. Buying a boat is not what makes it a gain or loss. It is how you use the boat. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12286|12108|2006-12-26 22:41:23|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Tue, Dec 26, 2006 at 06:07:23PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > >> buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under > >>almost any circumstances Thanks for the carefully-clipped misquote. Here, I'll restore the original so that it once again reflects what I said: `` If you want to talk about financial calculations - which, incidentally, will tell you that buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under almost any circumstances - that would be a different conversation. '' The point that I was making, Greg - and I'll clarify it here, since you seem to have missed my meaning - is that you keep trying to paint the process of acquiring a boat as a purely financial decision. My position is that as a purely financial decision - *regardless of whatever you may claim about your individual experience* - buying or building a boat is a ridiculous waste of money, since it is, in financial terms, a liability (that's a fact, not an opinion.) So, as a financial decision, your advice here is worthless - since it's based on a patently false premise. Is that clearer? If there's something in the above that you find difficult to understand, please ask, and I'll be happy to go over it again. My *primary* statement - and my above point was made in support of it - is that buying or building a boat is *not* a purely financial decision, and anyone who buys one on purely those grounds is, to put it extremely politely, badly mistaken (or misled.) It is a choice made outside the scope of pure finance. A boat is something to buy or build if and _only_ if you've got a burning passion to cruise the ocean, or because you love the idea of having one, or because you've always dreamed of building something like this with your hands, etc. - decisions in which finances play a part *but have nothing to do with the motivation*. Your claim that it's a financially-beneficial decision is false: ask any accountant. You may hear something like "if your taxes are over a million a year, it makes sense to show a loss - and a boat isn't a bad way to go!" - but I suspect that most of us don't qualify. You keep trying to promote something that sounds much like a pyramid scheme: "drop a down payment, work for so many hours at so many dollars - it's simple!" Nice try, but I don't think so. Here are a few reasons: Where's your guarantee that you'll be hired to work that many hours at that many dollars per hour? Where is the cost of dockage, since - in order to work a regular job - you usually can't be anchored out ("it's raining too hard to row in" isn't something a boss is going to accept)? Where is the cost of the phone hookup, maybe Net hookup (depending on your job), car (to get you to work), boat upkeep (since you'll be too busy to do it yourself), dry-cleaning/laundry (again, depending) and a thousand other little details? According to your description, in order to buy a boat, you have to become that one-in-a-million paragon of virtue: the man who can live in a place where high-end work is available and _still_ have a couple of grand a month in disposable income (which will go toward paying off the boat, of course.) Building a boat, on the other hand, turns that whole formula on its head. The "employment" that builds that value into the boat - the boat that you own - is provided by the one person who can never fire you: yourself. Dockage is nil - since you don't have to be on shore on a specific schedule. Phone? Nope (unless you feel like having a cell phone, which could also double as a (slow) Net connection.) Car? Since you're not in a hurry, you can walk, or take the bus, or borrow one from friends as needed. Dry-cleaning? Not needed. Laundry? Well, if you're in the Caribbean like I was, you just throw a net bag with your favorite pair of shorts and two t-shirts overboard while you're sailing, and you're good to go; if not, a single laundry cycle every couple of weeks only costs a few bucks. Best of all, you don't have any bills - other than basic boat upkeep, which is usually little more than your own labor - until you decide you can afford them (that's when you do your next project.) I didn't build my own boat, but I did the next best thing - buy one that was a good deal and needed a bunch of the kind of work that I could do - and I cruised the Caribbean for seven years. The major difference was that I got to regret a bunch of decisions made by the builders of my boat, while the folks who built theirs already didn't - and they had a lot more value in their boats than I did in mine, at least initially. So - build or buy, it's a decision of the head and the heart, not of the wallet. And not in any way that you've been describing. > The Bones paid for herself, and then some. Over 20 years, she put maybe > $200k net in our pockets. This helped pay for our cruising and house. It > was hard work, we learned a lot, and had a blast along the way. That's a brand-new claim, and - I suspect, given your previous ones - just a little overenthusiastic, and maybe just a little inaccurate. If she's such an income vehicle, how come you're not asking for good-will value, or selling her as an income property? You'd get a lot more if this was really the case. ...unless you used her as a get-away vehicle in multiple bank robberies, or the previous owner left large stacks of cash aboard, or you managed to charter her out for unbelievable rates (in which case, what happened to your cruising?), of course. I may have misunderstood what you were saying - in which case, I look eagerly forward to your stories of derring-do on the high seas (I even signed up for your cruising story at your site, but haven't heard back yet.) > Buying a boat is not what makes it a gain or loss. It is how you use the > boat. True of anything at all, and thus meaningless. Greg, you seem to be a reasonably capable guy, and I have nothing against you, plus I'm feeling somewhat charitable - maybe it's the season, I don't know - so I'm going to try giving you a clue, yours free and worth every penny you've paid for it. Here's a simple solution: sell the boat on her merits and stop trying to convince this list that it's a brilliant financial decision. She looks just fine for the price you're asking, and you don't need to annoy people here by telling them that what they want to do is totally wrong in order to sell her - you _may_ convince them that buying a boat is the right thing to do but that you're too much of a slick operator to buy from, which is probably not a win for you. Just advertise, participate - maybe by contributing some useful info from your cruising experience - and hang out; someone here might get interested. Being a pain doesn't get you buyers. /Verbum sat sapienti/, eh? Oh, and happy New Year. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12287|12108|2006-12-27 06:51:30|sae140|Re: Lazy Bones Update|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > > Here's a simple solution: sell > the boat on her merits and stop trying to convince this list that it's a > brilliant financial decision. She looks just fine for the price you're > asking, and you don't need to annoy people here by telling them that > what they want to do is totally wrong in order to sell her - you _may_ > convince them that buying a boat is the right thing to do but that > you're too much of a slick operator to buy from, which is probably not a > win for you. Just advertise, participate - maybe by contributing some > useful info from your cruising experience - and hang out; someone here > might get interested. Being a pain doesn't get you buyers. A most charitable suggestion Ben, and fully in keeping with the goodwill of the season - but I suspect that attempts to sell here a boat of non-origami construction would be a waste of time as well as being an imposition upon a patient and normally tolerant readership. There are many avenues available for selling conventionally-built framed steel boats, but please, not here - as this may create a precedent. 'best for 2007 Colin| 12288|12204|2006-12-27 09:31:19|will jones|Re: mig's?|One of the best posts in this thread. Really, if you can weld correctly with stick, you can weld correctly with MIG. If you can't weld correctly, it won't make a difference which you use, period. If you do not understand what you are doing, take a class. If you understand the fundamentals of welding and practice, it doesn't make much difference what you use, stick, dc, ac, mig, tig, propane, acetylene. If you don't understand, you are dangerous. For the carbon steel people are welding for these boats, I have to ask why are you using a shielding gas? Waste of money and not needed. Just use an 0.035 flux wire and knock off the slag. Concerned about penetration? Any good welder will run several test beads and even may grind out some weld to check their work. It is only steel, you can weld the grind out shut. One guy makes a good point, 0.045 will penetrate more deeply in one pass since you are throwing more current. Of course you need a commercial welder. Or one could simply grind a 45 degree on one edge of the steel and fill in with your .035. If you are interested in a great inexpensive (not cheap) MIG welder, look into the Clark MIG180. This has a great duty cycle and costs less than $500.00. Linclon, Hobart and Miller have nothing under $900 that matches this welder's quality and duty cycle. Duty cycle is what makes more expensive welders better. Throwing more current for a longer period of time is the name of the game. "David A. Frantz" wrote: I have to disagree to an extent here. Mig or Flux core has its place in ship building, the problem is that you won't be doing mig welding on a boat with a cheap Mig welder. That and you need the required skill to execute. If you are going to build an aluminum boat I'm not sure that I'd want to even consider the alternative which would be TIG. The reality is that most weld shops have an assortment of welders to address the different needs of the projects at hand. There is certainly the potential for enough sheet metal work in a boat to justify having a mig on hand. To do structural quality MIG though will require a significant investment in welding hardware and would be very hard to justify. Even stick can be an issue in the hands of a novice. Here I agree with the people posting about the need to take classes and actually learn to weld before building something your life will depend on. One of the most important things to realize/learn is that the various Mig manufactures are very charitable with the ratings on their small Mig welders. Having the rating of a mig welder may help people understand there real capability. Dave peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > I think we're all agreed that MIG is a waste of time & money for > amateur boatbuilding. I > don't dispute or disagree with anything you say, it confirms my own > observations & > experience. > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12289|12108|2006-12-27 10:58:10|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lazy Bones Update|On Wed, Dec 27, 2006 at 11:47:57AM -0000, sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > wrote: > > > > > Here's a simple solution: sell > > the boat on her merits and stop trying to convince this list that > it's a > > brilliant financial decision. She looks just fine for the price > you're > > asking, and you don't need to annoy people here by telling them that > > what they want to do is totally wrong in order to sell her - you > _may_ > > convince them that buying a boat is the right thing to do but that > > you're too much of a slick operator to buy from, which is probably > not a > > win for you. Just advertise, participate - maybe by contributing > some > > useful info from your cruising experience - and hang out; someone > here > > might get interested. Being a pain doesn't get you buyers. > > > A most charitable suggestion Ben, and fully in keeping with the > goodwill of the season - but I suspect that attempts to sell here a > boat of non-origami construction would be a waste of time as well as > being an imposition upon a patient and normally tolerant readership. Oops - believe it or not, I hadn't realized that it wasn't an origami boat; given the name of the site and the fact that most pics are of the boat's interior, I made a poorly-based assumption. Thank you for pointing it out, Colin. What I was thinking of, in my suggestion, is a win-win tactic that I've seen on a number of technical lists. Even though those lists prohibit commercial advertising, some clever and capable people manage to emulate it by 1) contributing a great deal to the list by giving excellent technical advice on a regular basis, and 2) having a simple link to their own website - where they advertise their services - in their email signature. However, if it's not an origami boat, then the above is almost completely inapplicable (I guess Greg's CAD services might still be of use to someone - although, in my opinion, Gerd's got that market sewn up via the exact method I've described. :). Oh well. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12290|12290|2006-12-27 10:59:26|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: biodiesel|Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that eat diesel, including biodiesel. These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a treat!) cheers, SR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12291|12108|2006-12-27 11:34:01|Michael Casling|Re: Lazy Bones Update|Ben I have similar thoughts as you about the origins of this whole topic, a diguise to sell a boat, complete with smoke and mirrors. You have been able to disect it very well. Years ago when I was selling boats, I had a guy from the financial services industry considering buying a boat. He always tried to figure it from a financial point of view. Back then I told him it was simply a matter of whether he wanted to go sailing bad enough, and whether he could afford it. Not much has changed. For this group, and the basic tenat of this group, is a third option, can you build it. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 26, 2006 at 06:07:23PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > >> buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under > > >>almost any circumstances > > Thanks for the carefully-clipped misquote. Here, I'll restore the > original so that it once again reflects what I said: > > `` > If you want to talk about financial calculations - which, incidentally, > will tell you that buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not > be done under almost any circumstances - that would be a different > conversation. > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12292|12290|2006-12-27 12:06:04|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: biodiesel|On Wed, Dec 27, 2006 at 10:58:07AM -0500, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) That's one of the sure signs of an experienced cruiser. :) A few months after I started cruising, I ran across a guy in Nassau, Bahamas whose Baja filter had been stolen; he asked around to see if he could borrow one, and when most of the newbie cruisers around him didn't have one, he took a dirty T-shirt and pumped fuel through it. People next to him started making all sorts of stupid comments and laughing... until he shook about 1/4lb. of *sand* out of that T-shirt and went back to fueling up. Then, there were many screams of "OH SHIT!!!" from those who had filled up there (many people, that is - Nassau lies at the end of a long run from Grand Bahama, and there were no gas stations in between.) I ordered a Baja (the big one) that day, and didn't leave Nassau until it came in; I've still got it and still use it, unless I know and trust the supplier. Those things will even filter out water. And yeah, I'm pretty anal about fuel quality myself: I've seen water in what are supposed to be good-quality sources of fuel. Cruising tip: if you can convince the bunkerage guys to fill you up, you're doing really well. They normally load a 100 tons or more at a time, and their fuel is _always_ clean, in my experience. This is why I favor big fuel fill openings, by the way: bunkerage facilities use a fill nozzle that won't fit into the tiny standard one. Today, there are supposed to be cheaper solutions than a Baja that work just as well - at least according to Practical Sailor: http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/Fuelfilter.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12293|12290|2006-12-27 18:55:50|brentswain38|Re: biodiesel|Martin who owns the Titus restaurant in Courtenay runs his vehicle on used restaurant grease. A kid on Lasquetti Island ran his car to California and back on used restaurant grease . It was all given to him. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > treat!) > > cheers, > SR > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > | 12294|12290|2006-12-27 18:56:26|brentswain38|Re: biodiesel|A baja filtre is a pretty simple thing for any metal worker to weld up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2006 at 10:58:07AM -0500, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > That's one of the sure signs of an experienced cruiser. :) A few months > after I started cruising, I ran across a guy in Nassau, Bahamas whose > Baja filter had been stolen; he asked around to see if he could borrow > one, and when most of the newbie cruisers around him didn't have one, he > took a dirty T-shirt and pumped fuel through it. People next to him > started making all sorts of stupid comments and laughing... until he > shook about 1/4lb. of *sand* out of that T-shirt and went back to > fueling up. Then, there were many screams of "OH SHIT!!!" from those > who had filled up there (many people, that is - Nassau lies at the end > of a long run from Grand Bahama, and there were no gas stations in > between.) > > I ordered a Baja (the big one) that day, and didn't leave Nassau until > it came in; I've still got it and still use it, unless I know and trust > the supplier. Those things will even filter out water. And yeah, I'm > pretty anal about fuel quality myself: I've seen water in what are > supposed to be good-quality sources of fuel. Cruising tip: if you can > convince the bunkerage guys to fill you up, you're doing really well. > They normally load a 100 tons or more at a time, and their fuel is > _always_ clean, in my experience. This is why I favor big fuel fill > openings, by the way: bunkerage facilities use a fill nozzle that won't > fit into the tiny standard one. > > Today, there are supposed to be cheaper solutions than a Baja that work > just as well - at least according to Practical Sailor: > > http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/Fuelfilter.html > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12295|12282|2006-12-27 20:51:05|Tom|Re: Rover 36|Hello Jonathon I wasnt sure if you were asking me or not on the stem bar in the 26, I havnt put one in yet, and not sure if I will. Welding one in shouldnt be a problem, just have to make sure you dont undercut the hull plate, 1/8" 6011 downward welded would work fine, welding upward in a tight V like that would get messey. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "jonathanswef" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Rover 36 > Gerd, > What progress on the Rover 36? > > Tom, > I notice you have a flat bar on the inside of the stem; that is quite > a tight angle to weld there, how did you do it? > > Best wishes to all, > > Jonathan. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12296|12108|2006-12-27 21:02:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>> Presumably - at least according to your claims - you could get it. That is easy to prove. My credit rating is available over the internet. Spend a few dollars and publish the numbers here. I challenge you. My credit rating is positive proof that what I did works. I started with nothing, cruised for the better part of 20 years, and returned better off than many/most of the people that worked and saved the whole time. There are plenty of ways to get a boat and go cruising. Some of them even pay for themselves. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12297|12108|2006-12-27 21:02:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|> If you want to talk about financial calculations - which, incidentally, > will tell you that buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not > be done under almost any circumstances - that would be a different > conversation. > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * As you wish. The Bones paid for herself, and then some. Over 20 years, she put maybe $200k net in our pockets. This helped pay for our cruising and house. It was hard work, we learned a lot, and had a blast along the way. Our boat previous to the Bones made us about $30k net. Buying a boat is not what makes it a gain or loss. It is how you use the boat. Greg Elliott --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 26, 2006 at 06:07:23PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > >> buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under > > >>almost any circumstances > > Thanks for the carefully-clipped misquote. Here, I'll restore the > original so that it once again reflects what I said: > > `` > If you want to talk about financial calculations - which, incidentally, > will tell you that buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not > be done under almost any circumstances - that would be a different > conversation. > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12298|12108|2006-12-27 21:02:50|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|>> I've never >>gone to them for a loan, and never will. Someone that has never used a hammer - I would not trust their advice on how to use a hammer. The same with credit - someone that has never used credit - I would not trust their advice on the subject. Try explaining riding a bicycle to someone that has never ridden, never seen one only heard about it. There is no way they can believe it will stand up let alone give advice on how to ride. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12299|12108|2006-12-27 21:03:17|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lazy Bones Update|I once had a financial adviser offering me advice. After awhile I asked a question. If your advice is so good, how come you're still working while I'm out cruising? Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Casling Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:32 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lazy Bones Update Ben I have similar thoughts as you about the origins of this whole topic, a diguise to sell a boat, complete with smoke and mirrors. You have been able to disect it very well. Years ago when I was selling boats, I had a guy from the financial services industry considering buying a boat. He always tried to figure it from a financial point of view. Back then I told him it was simply a matter of whether he wanted to go sailing bad enough, and whether he could afford it. Not much has changed. For this group, and the basic tenat of this group, is a third option, can you build it. Michael --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 26, 2006 at 06:07:23PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > >> buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not be done under > > >>almost any circumstances > > Thanks for the carefully-clipped misquote. Here, I'll restore the > original so that it once again reflects what I said: > > `` > If you want to talk about financial calculations - which, incidentally, > will tell you that buying a boat is a net loss and therefore should not > be done under almost any circumstances - that would be a different > conversation. > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette .NET * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12300|12290|2006-12-27 21:04:07|John Fisher|Re: biodiesel|I have been running my van on bio made from fryer oil and it works well as long as the temp is not too low 40F or higher. Also older diesels can run on straight vegetable oil, but on the new vehicles it can cause a lot of problems unless it is heated to ~ 170F to 180F before use. So most SVO conversions use two tanks, one for petro and one for SVO. They then switch between them for startup, running and shut down. For a boat being used in mostly warm climates a SVO conversion might be a feasible setup. There tend to be two issues with making bio, getting a good supply of oil and getting rid of the glycerin. But the cost is to make it is about $ 25/liter if the oil is free. John -------Original Message------- From: brentswain38 Date: 12/27/2006 5:32:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel Martin who owns the Titus restaurant in Courtenay runs his vehicle on used restaurant grease. A kid on Lasquetti Island ran his car to California and back on used restaurant grease . It was all given to him. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12301|12301|2006-12-27 21:05:26|Alex Christie|financing boats thread now closed.|Please be advised that for the sake of the health of this forum I regret to announce that am closing the thread on financing purchased boats. Any further posts on the subject will be deleted, and the group is now on moderation until the air clears. The thread has moved well beyond the primary scope of this group, which is the construction of folded steel boats. If anyone wants to start a new group on how to effectively finance a purchased boat, feel free to start one at http://groups.yahoo.com/start. Cheers, Alex| 12302|12290|2006-12-28 13:40:06|mickeyolaf|Re: biodiesel|I know a lot of people here in Vanouver use biodiesel. The grocery store we go to every Saturday has two Dodge vans with Mercedes diesels running on nothing but bio. He even has brochures promoting it at his store. I either bought bad fuel or the bio caused a reaction in my tank but at $140 in filters I won't test my luck again. My Duramax is once again running well so quarter pounder grease will have to go in someone else's vehicle. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Fisher" wrote: > > I have been running my van on bio made from fryer oil and it works well as > long as the temp is not too low 40F or higher. > > Also older diesels can run on straight vegetable oil, but on the new > vehicles it can cause a lot of problems unless it is heated to ~ 170F to > 180F before use. So most SVO conversions use two tanks, one for petro and > one for SVO. They then switch between them for startup, running and shut > down. For a boat being used in mostly warm climates a SVO conversion might > be a feasible setup. > > There tend to be two issues with making bio, getting a good supply of oil > and getting rid of the glycerin. But the cost is to make it is about $ > 25/liter if the oil is free. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: brentswain38 > Date: 12/27/2006 5:32:41 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > Martin who owns the Titus restaurant in Courtenay runs his vehicle on > used restaurant grease. A kid on Lasquetti Island ran his car to > California and back on used restaurant grease . It was all given to him. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL > wrote: > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12303|12301|2006-12-28 13:41:21|Carl Anderson|Re: financing boats thread now closed HOORAY!|Good on ya Alex, First: We'd REALLY like to hear from someone who has "actually" painted the inside of a BS36 and could tell us what kind of coverage they got with what kind of paint. Second of all: Has anyone out there "actually" constructed a mast according to Brent's specifications for a BS36? IF so, please tell us what you did. how it went, etc. as we are still debating wood/ aluminum/ steel. Thank You to all the boat BUILDERS out there! Kate n' Carl SV Moonflower of Moab [in process] SV Twisted Alex Christie wrote: > > > Please be advised that for the sake of the health of this forum I > regret to announce that am closing the thread on financing purchased > boats. Any further posts on the subject will be deleted, and the group > is now on moderation until the air clears. The thread has moved well > beyond the primary scope of this group, which is the construction of > folded steel boats. > > If anyone wants to start a new group on how to effectively finance a > purchased boat, feel free to start one at > http://groups.yahoo.com/start. > > Cheers, > > Alex > > | 12304|12290|2006-12-28 14:10:02|Carl Anderson|Re: biodiesel|Hello all, Yanmar will void their warranty if you use biodiesel in their engines. Anyway, my experience using commercial made B20 was great in my Benz until I let a tank of B20 sit over the summer in 2005. Cost me $200 to replace/flush everything in the fuel system. The biodiesel went bad in about 10 weeks! My mechanic said that he had never smelled anything like that in a fuel tank before (over 20 years working on diesel Benz). So I would say that it is still VERY experimental fuel. If you don't believe me ask your local Yanmar rep. later, Carl mickeyolaf wrote: > > > I know a lot of people here in Vanouver use biodiesel. The grocery > store we go to every Saturday has two Dodge vans with Mercedes diesels > running on nothing but bio. He even has brochures promoting it at his > store. > I either bought bad fuel or the bio caused a reaction in my tank but > at $140 in filters I won't test my luck again. My Duramax is once > again running well so quarter pounder grease will have to go in > someone else's vehicle. > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "John Fisher" wrote: > > > > I have been running my van on bio made from fryer oil and it works > well as > > long as the temp is not too low 40F or higher. > > > > Also older diesels can run on straight vegetable oil, but on the new > > vehicles it can cause a lot of problems unless it is heated to ~ 170F to > > 180F before use. So most SVO conversions use two tanks, one for > petro and > > one for SVO. They then switch between them for startup, running and > shut > > down. For a boat being used in mostly warm climates a SVO > conversion might > > be a feasible setup. > > > > There tend to be two issues with making bio, getting a good supply > of oil > > and getting rid of the glycerin. But the cost is to make it is about $ > > 25/liter if the oil is free. > > > > John > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > Date: 12/27/2006 5:32:41 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > > > Martin who owns the Titus restaurant in Courtenay runs his vehicle on > > used restaurant grease. A kid on Lasquetti Island ran his car to > > California and back on used restaurant grease . It was all given to him. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > wrote: > > > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > | 12305|12239|2006-12-28 14:10:27|Aaron|Re: All's fair in love and origami hulls|Alex Someone is doing a great job. Do you have any other photos of this boat? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Just put up a new photo on the main page of the group of a bare hull near here -- note > the fairness of the hull: it's got primer on it, and not ONE scrap of filler. To me, it's a thing > of beauty, acheived without due strain. Something to behold. > > Alex > | 12306|12290|2006-12-29 00:17:00|ANDREW AIREY|Re: biodiesel|Apart from things like condensation the fuel will probably have been stored in a water bottomed tank at some stage of its existence.I once spent a week at a chemical plant when I was in HM Customs and Excise dipping incoming road tankers with water seeking paste on the end of the dip rod because we'd had a tip off that some drivers were selling off feedstock as diesel and putting water in the tank to keep the weighbridge figures right.Since the feedstock was going into water bottomed tanks the fraud was unlikely to be detected after discharge cheers Andy Airey ___________________________________________________________ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html| 12307|12204|2006-12-29 00:17:45|peter_d_wiley|Re: mig's?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, will jones wrote: > > One of the best posts in this thread. Really, if you can weld correctly with stick, you can weld correctly with MIG. I strongly disagree with that statement. When I did my boilermaker/welder ticket, MIG was a separate learning stream. 20+ years later, I still think it's the case. TIG & oxy-acetylene welding marry very nicely, the only real difference is the cleanliness, intensity of heat source and a much less heat affected zone. > If you can't weld correctly, it won't make a difference which you use, period. If you do not understand what you are doing, take a class. If you understand the fundamentals of welding and practice, it doesn't make much difference what you use, stick, dc, ac, mig, tig, propane, acetylene. If you don't understand, you are dangerous. That I agree with. > > For the carbon steel people are welding for these boats, I have to ask why are you using a shielding gas? Waste of money and not needed. Just use an 0.035 flux wire and knock off the slag. Hmmm, last time I priced it flux cored wire was a *lot* more expensive than solid and CO2 as a shielding gas isn't all that expensive. > > Concerned about penetration? Any good welder will run several test beads and even may grind out some weld to check their work. It is only steel, you can weld the grind out shut. Yes, always worth doing to get the eye in again esp if you've changed rods, welders, welding position etc. > > One guy makes a good point, 0.045 will penetrate more deeply in one pass since you are throwing more current. Of course you need a commercial welder. Or one could simply grind a 45 degree on one edge of the steel and fill in with your .035. > > If you are interested in a great inexpensive (not cheap) MIG welder, look into the Clark MIG180. This has a great duty cycle and costs less than $500.00. Linclon, Hobart and Miller have nothing under $900 that matches this welder's quality and duty cycle. > > Duty cycle is what makes more expensive welders better. Throwing more current for a longer period of time is the name of the game. Yeah, I see welders advertised with a 10% duty cycle on max output. What a joke. My old stick welder can put out 250A at 60% duty cycle, my big MIG the same. Anything under 30% duty cycle at max amps is a waste of money. PDW > > "David A. Frantz" wrote: > I have to disagree to an extent here. Mig or Flux core has its place > in ship building, the problem is that you won't be doing mig welding on > a boat with a cheap Mig welder. That and you need the required skill > to execute. If you are going to build an aluminum boat I'm not sure > that I'd want to even consider the alternative which would be TIG. > The reality is that most weld shops have an assortment of welders to > address the different needs of the projects at hand. There is > certainly the potential for enough sheet metal work in a boat to justify > having a mig on hand. To do structural quality MIG though will > require a significant investment in welding hardware and would be very > hard to justify. > > Even stick can be an issue in the hands of a novice. Here I agree > with the people posting about the need to take classes and actually > learn to weld before building something your life will depend on. One > of the most important things to realize/learn is that the various Mig > manufactures are very charitable with the ratings on their small Mig > welders. Having the rating of a mig welder may help people understand > there real capability. > > Dave > > peter_d_wiley wrote: > > > > > > I think we're all agreed that MIG is a waste of time & money for > > amateur boatbuilding. I > > don't dispute or disagree with anything you say, it confirms my own > > observations & > > experience. > > > > > > > > > Valhalla > Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 > Bloomington, IN > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12308|12290|2006-12-29 00:17:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: biodiesel|My understanding from truck drivers and other people that have no choice or need the feal good of spending more to get less power and be enviromentaly friendly is it is only good if the diesel is used fulltime as in daly and the system has been cleaned out of any build up from the petrodiesel. In a boat where it is only used ocasonaly it can be a real problem. Some of the docks and stations in Vancouver Wa./Portland Or. that sold it quit doing so becouse of complanets. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Hello all, > > Yanmar will void their warranty if you use biodiesel in their engines. > > Anyway, my experience using commercial made B20 was great in my Benz > until I let a tank of B20 sit over the summer in 2005. Cost me $200 to > replace/flush everything in the fuel system. The biodiesel went bad in > about 10 weeks! My mechanic said that he had never smelled anything > like that in a fuel tank before (over 20 years working on diesel Benz). > > So I would say that it is still VERY experimental fuel. > > If you don't believe me ask your local Yanmar rep. > > later, > Carl > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > > > I know a lot of people here in Vanouver use biodiesel. The grocery > > store we go to every Saturday has two Dodge vans with Mercedes diesels > > running on nothing but bio. He even has brochures promoting it at his > > store. > > I either bought bad fuel or the bio caused a reaction in my tank but > > at $140 in filters I won't test my luck again. My Duramax is once > > again running well so quarter pounder grease will have to go in > > someone else's vehicle. > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "John Fisher" wrote: > > > > > > I have been running my van on bio made from fryer oil and it works > > well as > > > long as the temp is not too low 40F or higher. > > > > > > Also older diesels can run on straight vegetable oil, but on the new > > > vehicles it can cause a lot of problems unless it is heated to ~ 170F to > > > 180F before use. So most SVO conversions use two tanks, one for > > petro and > > > one for SVO. They then switch between them for startup, running and > > shut > > > down. For a boat being used in mostly warm climates a SVO > > conversion might > > > be a feasible setup. > > > > > > There tend to be two issues with making bio, getting a good supply > > of oil > > > and getting rid of the glycerin. But the cost is to make it is about $ > > > 25/liter if the oil is free. > > > > > > John > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > Date: 12/27/2006 5:32:41 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > > > > > Martin who owns the Titus restaurant in Courtenay runs his vehicle on > > > used restaurant grease. A kid on Lasquetti Island ran his car to > > > California and back on used restaurant grease . It was all given to him. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , SHANE ROTHWELL > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > | 12309|12301|2006-12-29 00:19:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: financing boats thread now closed HOORAY!|It's interesting to read how critical some can be of others on this > site. There seems to be an opinion among many that if u didn't build > your boat or make the parts yourself you shouldn't be here. > I originally thought this was a site for builders that also included > owners of Swain designed boats, dreamers, bullshitters, and the like > all of whom are interested in origami boats. There are plenty of threads on this site that have nothing to do with building. Biodiesel for example - a rehash of Xmas 2 years ago. No one is forced to read a subject. I see biodiesel as the subject, I move to the next posting without reading. When people reply to a topic, this indicates they have an interest in the topic. This is what keeps the topic alive. The back and forth debate. If no one replies, the thread dies. There are plenty of ways to build a boat. Some people are better off fabricating everything themselves. Some people use a mix of buy and build. Some buy a boat already built, then customize to suit. Others build using the money they gain from other skills. They are all builders. What all of us are interested in is learning how best to use origami to suit our skills. The facts can only be determined by reasoned debate, which by necessity raises opposing points of view. More often than not, when someone introduces an opposing idea, the response is a personal attack, which inevitably leads to a breakdown in the debate. This is where this site falls down, not on the choice of topic. Why not clean up the debate? Someone makes it personal - stop their postings for a month - regardless of who they are. There are few if any innocent parties in this group, so let's not pretend "not I". There is nothing wrong with an opposing idea. The problems start when someone makes it personal. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Anderson Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:30 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] financing boats thread now closed HOORAY! Good on ya Alex, First: We'd REALLY like to hear from someone who has "actually" painted the inside of a BS36 and could tell us what kind of coverage they got with what kind of paint. Second of all: Has anyone out there "actually" constructed a mast according to Brent's specifications for a BS36? IF so, please tell us what you did. how it went, etc. as we are still debating wood/ aluminum/ steel. Thank You to all the boat BUILDERS out there! Kate n' Carl SV Moonflower of Moab [in process] SV Twisted Alex Christie wrote: > > > Please be advised that for the sake of the health of this forum I > regret to announce that am closing the thread on financing purchased > boats. Any further posts on the subject will be deleted, and the group > is now on moderation until the air clears. The thread has moved well > beyond the primary scope of this group, which is the construction of > folded steel boats. > > If anyone wants to start a new group on how to effectively finance a > purchased boat, feel free to start one at > http://groups. yahoo.com/start. yahoo.com/start.> > > Cheers, > > Alex > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12310|12301|2006-12-29 00:20:35|Barry Gorman|Re: financing boats thread now closed.|HI ,All Thank you For the cessation of the thread that I believe has gone on Forever, wonderful news I see the header /I see the delete Button We should have a Site for this type of topic , Regards Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:59 PM Subject: [origamiboats] financing boats thread now closed. Please be advised that for the sake of the health of this forum I regret to announce that am closing the thread on financing purchased boats. Any further posts on the subject will be deleted, and the group is now on moderation until the air clears. The thread has moved well beyond the primary scope of this group, which is the construction of folded steel boats. If anyone wants to start a new group on how to effectively finance a purchased boat, feel free to start one at http://groups.yahoo.com/start. Cheers, Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12311|12311|2006-12-29 18:40:26|mickeyolaf|Life Vests/Harnesses|We were up in Hakai Pass this summer when the RCMP catamaran came in. They did a safety inspection of our boat. We were caught for one expired fire extinguisher. Anyways I got to talking to them about the Mustang Airforce vests they were wearing. One of their marine members died last summer when he fell in a lake without his vest on so they religiously wear them now. The Mountie told me they have done some tests with the Mustang vest and it holds them up once inflated even with all of their gear on. (about 22 lbs). So if u are abandoning ship with the Mustang on u can jump in holding (saving?) a case of beer and u still won't sink. They have a built in harness. They look really well designed and comfortable. I haven't researched if they qualify as PFD's but I think I will outfit my boat with them. I plan to rig lines fore to aft to hook the harness to. Has anybody found a more affordable brand that really works well. What do the rest of u use?| 12312|12312|2006-12-29 18:41:44|Aaron|Water/ Fuel Tank for Twin keel|Alex in the video you installed the plate for the water tank. How much is the capacity? What did you do for the fuel tank? Aaron| 12313|12313|2006-12-29 18:42:11|Alex Christie|Re: thread now closed|Actually, it was more than the personal attacks which closed the thread, though that was also a factor. The subject was going in circles with no new input and appeared to have become the primary focus of the group, so I closed it. I made one warning that things were out of hand and it was ignored right past Christmas. So far the biodiesel discussion is pretty tame, but the financing thing was no longer serving the group's interests, which is why I suggested that it was time to take it to it's own group. This is what moderators do :-) Peace, Alex PS I find it a boring and tedious job to moderate posts.| 12314|12314|2006-12-29 18:46:26|mickeyolaf|Deck Coatings|I was going to title this "Financing your Deck Coating" but I think that might cause a few people to go postal or delete me forever. I'll be painting the decks in three months. What is the standard these days for non slip? Paint and sand? Paint and walnut shells? Treadmaster? Those of u that are out sailing what did u use? I would like all walked on areas to be nonslip but not scratching to bare feet. What are the steel builders doing with their decks? I've been reading about Treadmaster. Supposedly good for 10 years and then u can refinish it with their paint system. I've heard from a Fisher owner the edges come up and u have to re epoxy them down but other than that they liked it. I think I am leaning to the walnut shell thing set in epoxy paint. Ideas?| 12315|12314|2006-12-29 19:39:26|brentswain38|Re: Deck Coatings|Walnut shell is for marina boats . It wears smooth rather quickly for full time cruisers . Beach sand in paint is best. It's not rough enought to skin you alive if you fall on it, but gives a good non skid surface . Paint a bit of deck then sprinkle the sand on with a salt shaker. When it dries give it another coat of paint.Sand s doesn't wear down. For my cockpit sole where wear is heavy I g gave it a coat of epoxy tar, piled beach sand on it , let it harden, brushed off the excess sand, then gave it another coat of epoxy tar and enamel. The sand makes it as hard and wear resistant as concrete . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I was going to title this "Financing your Deck Coating" but I think > that might cause a few people to go postal or delete me forever. > I'll be painting the decks in three months. What is the standard these > days for non slip? Paint and sand? Paint and walnut shells? > Treadmaster? Those of u that are out sailing what did u use? > I would like all walked on areas to be nonslip but not scratching to > bare feet. What are the steel builders doing with their decks? > I've been reading about Treadmaster. Supposedly good for 10 years and > then u can refinish it with their paint system. I've heard from a > Fisher owner the edges come up and u have to re epoxy them down but > other than that they liked it. > I think I am leaning to the walnut shell thing set in epoxy paint. Ideas? > | 12316|12311|2006-12-29 19:43:12|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|As I mentioned in my book , a harness with the tether attachement at the chest will drown you very quickly if you fall overboard with it attached . Attach the tether to the top of the shoulder and it will be OK. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > We were up in Hakai Pass this summer when the RCMP catamaran came in. > They did a safety inspection of our boat. We were caught for one > expired fire extinguisher. Anyways I got to talking to them about the > Mustang Airforce vests they were wearing. One of their marine members > died last summer when he fell in a lake without his vest on so they > religiously wear them now. > The Mountie told me they have done some tests with the Mustang vest > and it holds them up once inflated even with all of their gear on. > (about 22 lbs). So if u are abandoning ship with the Mustang on u can > jump in holding (saving?) a case of beer and u still won't sink. They > have a built in harness. > They look really well designed and comfortable. I haven't researched > if they qualify as PFD's but I think I will outfit my boat with them. > I plan to rig lines fore to aft to hook the harness to. > Has anybody found a more affordable brand that really works well. What > do the rest of u use? > | 12317|12282|2006-12-29 19:51:21|brentswain38|Re: Rover 36|I always put a half inch by two inch stem bar inside , up to the bottom of the anchor well, and down just below the turn of the stem. I weld it with 6 inch uphand welds 1/8th inch 6011. Bending a piece of 1/2 inch sch 40 pipe makes a good template for it. It lets you Tbone steel barges at hull speed without any dammage. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Jonathon > I wasnt sure if you were asking me or not on the stem bar in the 26, I > havnt put one in yet, and not sure if I will. Welding one in shouldnt be a > problem, just have to make sure you dont undercut the hull plate, 1/8" 6011 > downward welded would work fine, welding upward in a tight V like that would > get messey. > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jonathanswef" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:54 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Rover 36 > > > > Gerd, > > What progress on the Rover 36? > > > > Tom, > > I notice you have a flat bar on the inside of the stem; that is quite > > a tight angle to weld there, how did you do it? > > > > Best wishes to all, > > > > Jonathan. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 12318|12313|2006-12-29 20:03:08|Mike|Re: thread now closed|All: Though I find that I can simply ignore threads which I have no interest in, I would suggest that it is a pain in the butt to have to sift thru so much unrelated "stuff", when searching for archived threads that will answer some nagging question. Often, frustration with volume leads me to ask the group, only to find that the topic was previously discussed in great detail. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Actually, it was more than the personal attacks which closed the > thread, though that was also a factor. The subject was going in > circles with no new input and appeared to have become the primary focus > of the group, so I closed it. I made one warning that things were out > of hand and it was ignored right past Christmas. So far the biodiesel > discussion is pretty tame, but the financing thing was no longer > serving the group's interests, which is why I suggested that it was > time to take it to it's own group. This is what moderators do :-) > > Peace, > > Alex > > PS I find it a boring and tedious job to moderate posts. > | 12319|12319|2006-12-29 20:04:43|Mike|Alex's DVDs|I recently received the first volume of Alex's boatbuilding dvd series. For those of you whom have not yet bought it, It is well worth the money. Unfortunately, I was left hanging, the dvds ending before the culmination of the plot(sort of like watching the first two parts of the Lord of The Rings). If I could direct a few questions toward those whom have already built their hulls; when joining the two hullsides, would it not be of value to run a come-along over the top(transverse, attached to each hullside, or inner sides, below toerail) to assist in bringing up the sides? When installing the twin keels, how about welding tabs to the hull, in alignment with the inboard(closer to centreline)keel-hole lip? This way, one would not risk damaging the lip by prying when dragging the keel into it's hole What is the minimum freeboard in a fully loaded 36 & 40 footer when not underway? What is the minimum main cabin headroom(bare steel)? As a welder-fitter of ships, barges, etc., I certainly appreciated Brent's system of bringing plate edges to flush. I well imagined myself following the traditional routine of using dogs & wedges, until I watched the dvds & realized that the traditional manner would have been a major waste of time. So, too, with bringing the foredecks to the appropriate height. Mike P.S. Hey, Alex? Can you still count to ten, using only your fingers? I strongly believe that the two most dangerous tools I use in my work are grinders & manlifts.| 12320|12320|2006-12-29 22:05:01|mickeyolaf|Strong Box/Boat Safe/Lock Box/Gun Locker|Whatever u want to call it how many of u have welded in a secure lockable box to hold valuables, papers, $,etc? I've put in a hidden strong box made of 3/16 plate and will have covered pad locks so they can't be cut off. It's big enough for most valuables, papers, cameras, etc. It will also hold my stainless fold down rifle. And it is not easily seen even when looking at it. Sort of the false bottom idea. When we are boating we walk and walk and walk and are away from the boat for long days. Not wanting to carry our valuables with us I designed a safe into this boat. Those of u still in frame and haven't closed up or used all of your spaces should consider it. Ours will be vented and I may put an electric "golden rod" in it if there is any sweat. The strong box could also work as a time capsule.If u have a really good idea re how to finance a boat you could write it down and lock it up in the box for ten years which is about when Alex may allow you to post it.| 12321|12320|2006-12-29 22:13:09|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Strong Box/Boat Safe/Lock Box/Gun Locker|On Sat, Dec 30, 2006 at 01:40:55AM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > The strong box could also work as a time capsule.If u have a really > good idea re how to finance a boat you could write it down and lock it > up in the box for ten years which is about when Alex may allow you to > post it. Better not risk it for such a hot property. It would probably self-combust and burn up all your cash and papers. Probably melt the rifle, too. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12322|12314|2006-12-29 22:35:40|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Deck Coatings|On Fri, Dec 29, 2006 at 11:13:25PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I was going to title this "Financing your Deck Coating" but I think > that might cause a few people to go postal or delete me forever. > I'll be painting the decks in three months. What is the standard these > days for non slip? Paint and sand? Paint and walnut shells? > Treadmaster? Those of u that are out sailing what did u use? I learned this one from another sailor whose decks I was admiring (Tock, aboard "Leeward II" in the US Virgin Islands); it works really well, about as permanent as anything aboard a boat can be. Paint your deck as usual - I'm assuming a decent-quality polyurethane - then mask off the areas you don't want to "sand". Put down a good heavy layer of paint, then take some clean beach sand and spread it using a flour sifter (the kind with the trigger-driven rotor on the bottom) - it gives you lots of control about how much to put where, and spreads it in a nice even layer. When that's kicked off, paint another layer on top, and you have some great non-slip - I've "tested" it with diesel and salt water on deck, and it works - that still won't tear up your bare feet or knees. I always laugh when I see those tiny cans of "non-slip" that International and other paint companies sell for lots of dollars. Tock, by the way, was running a charter boat, so he did this on his stern platform too - but there, he put down a good 3/4"-thick layer instead of the usual "heavily sprinkled" version. Not quite as non-slip as usual, but it made that (very high-traffic) area pretty much indestructible: all he ever did was give it a scrub between charter parties. In the past, he'd had to go through hell because the gelcoat on the platform (it was fiberglass) wore through from the beach sand, etc. > I've been reading about Treadmaster. Supposedly good for 10 years and > then u can refinish it with their paint system. I've heard from a > Fisher owner the edges come up and u have to re epoxy them down but > other than that they liked it. That's been my experience too. The previous owner of this boat bought a bunch of the stuff and used it on all the companion ladders; it's OK (although not nearly as good as the sand-and-epoxy version), and the edges do peel up unless you're careful. When I replaced one a while ago, I made double-sure to get the edges very wet with glue, and haven't had a problem. However, I'd never use the stuff if I had to pay for it. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12323|12311|2006-12-29 22:43:31|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Fri, Dec 29, 2006 at 11:32:16PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > We were up in Hakai Pass this summer when the RCMP catamaran came in. > They did a safety inspection of our boat. We were caught for one > expired fire extinguisher. Anyways I got to talking to them about the > Mustang Airforce vests they were wearing. One of their marine members > died last summer when he fell in a lake without his vest on so they > religiously wear them now. > The Mountie told me they have done some tests with the Mustang vest > and it holds them up once inflated even with all of their gear on. > (about 22 lbs). So if u are abandoning ship with the Mustang on u can > jump in holding (saving?) a case of beer and u still won't sink. They > have a built in harness. > They look really well designed and comfortable. I haven't researched > if they qualify as PFD's but I think I will outfit my boat with them. > I plan to rig lines fore to aft to hook the harness to. > Has anybody found a more affordable brand that really works well. What > do the rest of u use? I've got a locker full of cheap PFDs for passing inspections and inflatables for real-life use. Now that they're starting to certify inflatables, I might get rid of the cheapies... but no one will steal a $5 PFD out of your dinghy, which isn't true of the inflatable. The cheapies, you can just leave in the bow locker and be legal at all times. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12324|12311|2006-12-30 06:42:19|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Mickey and all, In the latest Practical Boat Owner on page 66 there is this sobering statement; "Statistically, 40% of all the boats the RNLI check have lifejackets that will fail, many due to bottles that are loose." There are also articles on recovering a MOB. MOB recovery is a very difficult thing to do. For my wife to get me in on her own or vice versa is almost impossible and I have been giving thought to a system that can be deployed quickly and easily in a time of stress. Permanently fitted scrambling nets rolled up on either side of the cockpit with a block and tackle permanently fitted to the boom, together with a lot of practice in retrieval are my favourites at the moment. Regards, Ted| 12325|12325|2006-12-30 09:11:15|Earl|Inexpensive LED Night Lighting|Harbor Freight has Stop/Brake lights using LEDs for <$14 US. Comparing this to the $50 cost of Dr. LED light fixtures. Fair Winds, Earl| 12326|12320|2006-12-30 14:22:55|brentswain38|Re: Strong Box/Boat Safe/Lock Box/Gun Locker|I always recommentd such a stronbox. If it is below the waterline , there is little chance if a fire getting iot hot enough especially if it is aluminium fully welded into the hull. Remote openings via morse cables ( riggin wire in Works well --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Whatever u want to call it how many of u have welded in a secure > lockable box to hold valuables, papers, $,etc? > I've put in a hidden strong box made of 3/16 plate and will have > covered pad locks so they can't be cut off. It's big enough for most > valuables, papers, cameras, etc. It will also hold my stainless fold > down rifle. And it is not easily seen even when looking at it. Sort of > the false bottom idea. > When we are boating we walk and walk and walk and are away from the > boat for long days. Not wanting to carry our valuables with us I > designed a safe into this boat. Those of u still in frame and haven't > closed up or used all of your spaces should consider it. Ours will be > vented and I may put an electric "golden rod" in it if there is any sweat. > > The strong box could also work as a time capsule.If u have a really > good idea re how to finance a boat you could write it down and lock it > up in the box for ten years which is about when Alex may allow you to > post it. > | 12327|12319|2006-12-30 14:24:22|brentswain38|Re: Alex's DVDs|The hull at this stage is too floppy to gain any benefit from a comealong over the bulwarks. Headroom in the bare shell from the cabintop to the bottom of the centreline is around 7 1/2 feet. There is zero chance of dammaging the lip around the keel hole. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > I recently received the first volume of Alex's boatbuilding dvd > series. For those of you whom have not yet bought it, It is well > worth the money. Unfortunately, I was left hanging, the dvds ending > before the culmination of the plot(sort of like watching the first > two parts of the Lord of The Rings). > > If I could direct a few questions toward those whom have already > built their hulls; > > when joining the two hullsides, would it not be of value to run a > come-along over the top(transverse, attached to each hullside, or > inner sides, below toerail) to assist in bringing up the sides? > > When installing the twin keels, how about welding tabs to the hull, > in alignment with the inboard(closer to centreline)keel-hole lip? > This way, one would not risk damaging the lip by prying when dragging > the keel into it's hole > > What is the minimum freeboard in a fully loaded 36 & 40 footer when > not underway? > > What is the minimum main cabin headroom(bare steel)? > > > > As a welder-fitter of ships, barges, etc., I certainly appreciated > Brent's system of bringing plate edges to flush. I well imagined > myself following the traditional routine of using dogs & wedges, > until I watched the dvds & realized that the traditional manner would > have been a major waste of time. So, too, with bringing the foredecks > to the appropriate height. > > Mike > > P.S. Hey, Alex? Can you still count to ten, using only your fingers? > I strongly believe that the two most dangerous tools I use in my work > are grinders & manlifts. > | 12328|12313|2006-12-30 15:34:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: thread now closed|The biodiesel threat is (likely) tame because the group has no financial stake in biodiesel. It is people's financial interests, when coupled with personal attacks that lead to problems. For example, there are people that have no financial stake in origami. They are not building, they are not designing. Some engage in attacks along these lines: 1. People lie because they have a financial interest 2. You have a financial interest 3. Therefore you must be lying. This leads to problems because in almost all cultures, calling people liars over money is a serious matter. Throughout history it has led to violence and death. Indirectly, it harms everyone in the group that has a stake in origami, because it implies they all could be lying. Personal attacks are not allowed in debates because they prevent a fair examination of the facts. The debate ends up going in circles because of the attacks, which drown out everything else. The end result is "did to, did not, did to, did not", as the subject of the debate becomes the messenger, not the message. Why not simply put the group on notice - you will no longer allow personal attacks. This will make the job of moderator a lot less tedious. Is there anyone in the group that is not willing to agree to this? Greg Elliott --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Actually, it was more than the personal attacks which closed the > thread, though that was also a factor. The subject was going in > circles with no new input and appeared to have become the primary focus > of the group, so I closed it. I made one warning that things were out > of hand and it was ignored right past Christmas. So far the biodiesel > discussion is pretty tame, but the financing thing was no longer > serving the group's interests, which is why I suggested that it was > time to take it to it's own group. This is what moderators do :-) > > Peace, > > Alex > > PS I find it a boring and tedious job to moderate posts. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12329|12313|2006-12-30 16:58:01|Aaron Williams|Re: thread now closed|Come on lets just stay on how to build the ORIGAMI way. ge@... wrote: The biodiesel threat is (likely) tame because the group has no financial stake in biodiesel. It is people's financial interests, when coupled with personal attacks that lead to problems. For example, there are people that have no financial stake in origami. They are not building, they are not designing. Some engage in attacks along these lines: 1. People lie because they have a financial interest 2. You have a financial interest 3. Therefore you must be lying. This leads to problems because in almost all cultures, calling people liars over money is a serious matter. Throughout history it has led to violence and death. Indirectly, it harms everyone in the group that has a stake in origami, because it implies they all could be lying. Personal attacks are not allowed in debates because they prevent a fair examination of the facts. The debate ends up going in circles because of the attacks, which drown out everything else. The end result is "did to, did not, did to, did not", as the subject of the debate becomes the messenger, not the message. Why not simply put the group on notice - you will no longer allow personal attacks. This will make the job of moderator a lot less tedious. Is there anyone in the group that is not willing to agree to this? Greg Elliott --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Actually, it was more than the personal attacks which closed the > thread, though that was also a factor. The subject was going in > circles with no new input and appeared to have become the primary focus > of the group, so I closed it. I made one warning that things were out > of hand and it was ignored right past Christmas. So far the biodiesel > discussion is pretty tame, but the financing thing was no longer > serving the group's interests, which is why I suggested that it was > time to take it to it's own group. This is what moderators do :-) > > Peace, > > Alex > > PS I find it a boring and tedious job to moderate posts. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12330|10281|2006-12-30 19:30:04|edward_stoneuk|Moderation|I fully support Alex's judgement in matters of moderation of this group. Folks who give of their time to moderate web groups deserve our thanks and support. Regards, Ted| 12331|12311|2006-12-31 10:46:14|mickeyolaf|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would not be easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet person was wearing a strong harness. But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would be up that ladder pretty fast. The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull yourself into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be really strong. North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim grid/steps into a future design? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Mickey and all, > > In the latest Practical Boat Owner on page 66 there is this sobering > statement; "Statistically, 40% of all the boats the RNLI check have > lifejackets that will fail, many due to bottles that are loose." There > are also articles on recovering a MOB. MOB recovery is a very > difficult thing to do. For my wife to get me in on her own or vice > versa is almost impossible and I have been giving thought to a system > that can be deployed quickly and easily in a time of stress. > Permanently fitted scrambling nets rolled up on either side of the > cockpit with a block and tackle permanently fitted to the boom, > together with a lot of practice in retrieval are my favourites at the > moment. > > Regards, > > Ted > | 12332|12311|2006-12-31 13:59:09|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:19PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so > that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are > older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. > Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would not be > easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch > would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet > person was wearing a strong harness. > But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can > climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled > there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would > be up that ladder pretty fast. Please do consider the situation in which the person overboard is hurt, and _cannot_ pull themselves up - no matter what they were able to do when in top condition. I've seen people try the "drop the sail in the water" drill, and watched the MOB slip right out of it. One of the things I'm planning on adding to Ulysses is a fold-down stern platform: two big tabs on the hull plus a couple of stainless "chafe points", a big stainless pipe bent (or cut and welded) into a U shape with stops on the open ends, and some of that gray rot-proof "plastic wood" that's sold at Home Depot and the like. If it's just a couple of inches higher than the water, it's easy to roll onto even if you're hurt or weak, and the person on board can help you without endangering themselves. The fact that it can be kicked up means you don't pay any more per foot if you ever have to pull into a marina, and if it's made wide enough, it can be used as a way to keep your dinghy off the deck (lashed against the stern) and still have enough room to stand on. > The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to > join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull yourself > into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. I don't know that it's a fair test, since it's partly strength and largely skill. It's one of the first things I taught my wife when she came aboard. > I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the > davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be > really strong. > North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for > swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. Heh. You Canadians have antifreeze instead of blood. :) Me, if the water temps are below 75degF or so, I sail south. On the other hand, when I was a kid in Russia, my best friend's father was a "Walrus" (that was the name of the ice swimmers' club there, if I recall it correctly.) We'd tromp out to the middle of the lake with an ax, and Gena would chop out a hole for his dad to swim in; the old man would come up jogging in his undies, dive in, and swim around for a while, huffing great clouds of steam. After he got out, he'd suck down the half-liter bottle of vodka that he brought with him, and jog back home (no drying off - that would be for sissies!) That was back in the late 60s or early 70s; the old man is probably still around, since any disease would be *afraid* to live in his body. :) > Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim > grid/steps into a future design? I think that it would be a _very_ cool addition to these boats. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12333|12311|2006-12-31 15:08:30|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to recall that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries to kill anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a stern swim ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the slightest bit rough. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:19PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: >> I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so >> that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are >> older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. >> Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would not be >> easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch >> would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet >> person was wearing a strong harness. >> But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can >> climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled >> there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would >> be up that ladder pretty fast. > > Please do consider the situation in which the person overboard is hurt, > and _cannot_ pull themselves up - no matter what they were able to do > when in top condition. I've seen people try the "drop the sail in the > water" drill, and watched the MOB slip right out of it. > > One of the things I'm planning on adding to Ulysses is a fold-down stern > platform: two big tabs on the hull plus a couple of stainless "chafe > points", a big stainless pipe bent (or cut and welded) into a U shape > with stops on the open ends, and some of that gray rot-proof "plastic > wood" that's sold at Home Depot and the like. If it's just a couple of > inches higher than the water, it's easy to roll onto even if you're hurt > or weak, and the person on board can help you without endangering > themselves. The fact that it can be kicked up means you don't pay any > more per foot if you ever have to pull into a marina, and if it's made > wide enough, it can be used as a way to keep your dinghy off the deck > (lashed against the stern) and still have enough room to stand on. > >> The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to >> join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull yourself >> into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. > > I don't know that it's a fair test, since it's partly strength and > largely skill. It's one of the first things I taught my wife when she > came aboard. > >> I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the >> davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be >> really strong. >> North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for >> swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. > > Heh. You Canadians have antifreeze instead of blood. :) Me, if the water > temps are below 75degF or so, I sail south. > > On the other hand, when I was a kid in Russia, my best friend's father > was a "Walrus" (that was the name of the ice swimmers' club there, if I > recall it correctly.) We'd tromp out to the middle of the lake with an > ax, and Gena would chop out a hole for his dad to swim in; the old man > would come up jogging in his undies, dive in, and swim around for a > while, huffing great clouds of steam. After he got out, he'd suck down > the half-liter bottle of vodka that he brought with him, and jog back > home (no drying off - that would be for sissies!) That was back in the > late 60s or early 70s; the old man is probably still around, since any > disease would be *afraid* to live in his body. :) > >> Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim >> grid/steps into a future design? > > I think that it would be a _very_ cool addition to these boats. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12334|12313|2006-12-31 15:42:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: thread now closed|>I would suggest that it is a pain in the butt to have to >sift thru so much unrelated "stuff", when searching for archived >threads that will answer some nagging question. Often, frustration >with volume leads me to ask the group, only to find that the topic >was previously discussed in great detail. I agree. Alex is doing a great job under tough circumstances. I think some postings take advantage of Alex's good nature. As with traffic on the road, debate works because of rules. If people abuse traffic rules, roads become dangerous to the point at which they must be closed for the public good. Thus, anyone wanting to silence a topic of discussion need only abuse the rules. I've notice that about 1/3 of all postings over the previous months have been intercepted by the network spam filters. They make it into Yahoo, but they don't make it out into regular pop3 email delivery. Some are off topic, already covered in other groups. Others sound like religious dogma. "I'm right and you are wrong. No, I've never done it, I believe it on faith". One only need look at history to see where this leads. Others are abusive-controlling comments, "Oh, I'm sorry I insulted you, what's the matter, can't you take a joke". This is the sort of behavior typical of bullies and wife-abusers. Others sound like Nazi's. "If you don't think like we do, you don't belong here. We should have killed people that think like you". I'm reminded of the rise of fascism in the 20th century. They rose to power by shouting down any opposition. Those that they could not shout down were silenced permanently. The group ends up speaking with one voice, one mind. It stagnates, with new ideas forbidden, old topics repeating endlessly, over and over. If it looks like spam, sounds like spam, smells like spam, tastes like spam, .. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12335|12311|2006-12-31 17:10:17|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:07:17PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to recall > that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm > water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries to kill > anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a stern swim > ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the slightest > bit rough. Reasonable point; the closest I ever came to dying while sailing was while trying to cut loose a fish trap line that had become wrapped around my prop while I was sailing along the south coast of Puerto Rico. The stern was pumping about 5' up and down - since the boat was hooked by the stern, it turned stern on to the seas - and I was alone aboard. I tethered myself to a winch and dove over, timing the rise and the fall, and dodging in to slice that damn line. Took forever, it seemed like. What I'd been thinking about, though, is using the stern platform while you've got just a little bit of way on (*not* under power, of course - hove to.) That way, the stern isn't pumping - while you're moving, the stern stays in the water - and although a boat coming down on you at a knot or so in a rough sea isn't quite the perfect answer, I don't think that there is such a thing as a perfect answer (unless you happen to have several trained people and some expensive equipment that's not normally available on boats handy.) Other than rigging something like a rolled-up net on the sides that can be unrolled into the water, then lifted with the MOB inside it, I can't think of anything better. Gary, you've mentioned reading up on this stuff - do you have any good suggestions? That US Coast Guard test in the Cheasapeake, where they decided that sailing a hundred yards and reversing the compass course plus an upwind correction just did NOT impress me. A hundred yards is more than enough to lose sight of the MOB - that sets off every alarm in my brain. Incidentally, back when I was single-handing, I used to tow 300' of floating yellow polypro with a small float on the end in such a way that it would pop the autopilot off the tiller if there was ever any serious tension on it (the boat would then round up into the wind.) After a while of doing that - and being unable to drag a fishing line, which *sucked,* given that I was in the Caribbean - I gave up on it and started wearing a harness with two snaps anytime I went out on deck in anything but totally calm weather, and keeping "one hand for myself and one for the ship" at all times. It makes for a pretty secure feeling, and it's still my rule ("1/2 an hour on both sides of darkness and in anything but calm weather") for anyone sailing with me. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12336|12336|2006-12-31 17:30:13|Aaron Williams|Mast and rigging|Greg What type of mast and rigging do you use on the boats that you design? Aaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12337|12311|2006-12-31 19:13:37|mickeyolaf|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I think boating is alot like motorcycling. It's not if you are going to fall overboard or crash. It's a matter of when. Maybe with our collective imput we could develope an "origami" solution to reboarding when singlehanding and when crewed. I don't think the people on this sight are 19 year olds who can do fifty chin ups. So the majority of us are not pulling ourselves up the top sides and on to the deck. It would be interesting to develope a piece of equipment or procedure to regain the ship which would work in most conditions for our design of hull and transom.(until Brent designs steps which fold out and down and back up into a recess in the hull.) I know for one that if and when I do hit the water I will be wearing an inflatable vest which may be a hinderance to reboarding or not. We went to the new 007 flick the other day. Walking back from the theatre I asked my wife if she thought I resembled James Bond. Without a seconds thought she said "no". So I quess it won't be muscle power that gets me back on board. Brains over brawn is the solution. I like that net u can walk up idea. But it would have to be weighted at the bottom to sink low enought to get a footing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:07:17PM -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to recall > > that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm > > water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries to kill > > anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a stern swim > > ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the slightest > > bit rough. > > Reasonable point; the closest I ever came to dying while sailing was > while trying to cut loose a fish trap line that had become wrapped > around my prop while I was sailing along the south coast of Puerto > Rico. The stern was pumping about 5' up and down - since the boat was > hooked by the stern, it turned stern on to the seas - and I was alone > aboard. I tethered myself to a winch and dove over, timing the rise and > the fall, and dodging in to slice that damn line. Took forever, it > seemed like. > > What I'd been thinking about, though, is using the stern platform while > you've got just a little bit of way on (*not* under power, of course - > hove to.) That way, the stern isn't pumping - while you're moving, the > stern stays in the water - and although a boat coming down on you at a > knot or so in a rough sea isn't quite the perfect answer, I don't think > that there is such a thing as a perfect answer (unless you happen to > have several trained people and some expensive equipment that's not > normally available on boats handy.) > > Other than rigging something like a rolled-up net on the sides that can > be unrolled into the water, then lifted with the MOB inside it, I can't > think of anything better. Gary, you've mentioned reading up on this > stuff - do you have any good suggestions? That US Coast Guard test in > the Cheasapeake, where they decided that sailing a hundred yards and > reversing the compass course plus an upwind correction just did NOT > impress me. A hundred yards is more than enough to lose sight of the MOB > - that sets off every alarm in my brain. > > Incidentally, back when I was single-handing, I used to tow 300' of > floating yellow polypro with a small float on the end in such a way that > it would pop the autopilot off the tiller if there was ever any serious > tension on it (the boat would then round up into the wind.) After a > while of doing that - and being unable to drag a fishing line, which > *sucked,* given that I was in the Caribbean - I gave up on it and > started wearing a harness with two snaps anytime I went out on deck in > anything but totally calm weather, and keeping "one hand for myself and > one for the ship" at all times. It makes for a pretty secure feeling, > and it's still my rule ("1/2 an hour on both sides of darkness and in > anything but calm weather") for anyone sailing with me. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12338|12336|2006-12-31 20:15:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Mast and rigging|Hi Aaron, Most successful boats are based on existing designs. We typically work backwards from an existing design that someone likes, that has already proven itself. We redo the hull in origami and leave the rest pretty much as is. There is lots of room to substitute when building the boat, depending on your mix of skill, time and money as well as your intended use for the boat. Wood, steel and alloy all work for sticks, with various tradeoffs that have been discussed at length on this site. My preference is for an alloy stick. As with all things, there are fancy, expensive versions and plain, economy versions. Check what you get for the price – what is included in addition to the tube? You can also fabricate from tubing. I’ve seen lots of Kiwi boats done this way, the tubing flattened through rollers to shape. I like a masthead cutter rig for offshore. Double spreaders, double headstays, double backs. Replace the running backs with permanent intermediates. No single failure can bring down the rig. Lots of sail options to suit conditions. I copied a Hans Christian when I modified the Bones. Why re-invent the wheel? Find a boat, same general size and weight - that works well for your intended purpose - and copy what they did. As boat size increases, I’d expect to see a second mast. I’ve seen a bunch of equal height schooners over the years. Lots of options there to use furling gear to best advantage. Single spreaders are good enough with redundant masts. Single mast, insurance companies usually want double spreaders for offshore. Fractional rigs don’t belong offshore, except for racing or similar. Galvanized wire is great, though you do need to get out and oil it. Stainless wire, with staylock style terminators works well, however they are big $$. You pretty much need stainless for hanked headsails. Swaged fittings are pretty much a disaster offshore over time. I’m always leery of anything stainless. Last month I was putting the Bones away after a month of sailing. A 316 stainless, ¾” bolt broke in two as I started to turn it. Maybe 20 lbs pressure on a small, 6” wrench - crevice corrosion under the nut. Modern rigs are going with less wire, swept spreaders. This is more for performance. For offshore cruising in remote locations, you want something with more redundancy. Beating to weather on a dirty night, somewhere off the coast of Borneo in the South China Sea, the last thing you want is another thing to worry about. When thinking offshore, always think single point failures. If you can handle them and make the repairs before another failure, you will be fine. The problems start when either your design cannot handle single point failures, or something fails and you don’t make repairs before something else goes wrong. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Williams Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Mast and rigging Greg What type of mast and rigging do you use on the boats that you design? Aaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail. yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12339|12311|2006-12-31 21:41:47|Gary|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hey there... I was up there this summer as well and out in Hecate Straight. I use a sea kayak lifejacket which is short, comfortable and has, I believe 6 or more mesh and cloth pockets plus bucha clips and tabs. So in other words on deck, I have this short comfortable life jacket to which is secured my cell phone, portable VHF radio, whistle, flares and am now looking into a rocket launcher to attract attention...plus it has a short little pocket that can handle nicely some condoms should you wash up on something like Giligans Isl. As a single hander, the kayak jacket offers a bit of confidence when on deck. Gary| 12340|12311|2007-01-01 11:27:38|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Mon, Jan 01, 2007 at 02:39:07AM -0000, Gary wrote: > Hey there... I was up there this summer as well and out in Hecate > Straight. I use a sea kayak lifejacket which is short, comfortable > and has, I believe 6 or more mesh and cloth pockets plus bucha clips > and tabs. So in other words on deck, I have this short comfortable > life jacket to which is secured my cell phone, portable VHF radio, > whistle, flares and am now looking into a rocket launcher to attract > attention...plus it has a short little pocket that can handle nicely > some condoms should you wash up on something like Giligans Isl. As a > single hander, the kayak jacket offers a bit of confidence when on > deck. You could even inflate the condoms to give yourself a little extra flotation - that would keep the cell phone out of the water. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12341|12311|2007-01-01 11:31:53|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Happy New Year, everyone! On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 11:59:31PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I think boating is alot like motorcycling. It's not if you are > going to fall overboard or crash. It's a matter of when. I got my road rash stripes quite a while back [1] - but I've never fallen overboard in the many years I've been on the water, and neither has any of my crew. One came close once when a stainless stanchion cracked while she was leaning on it (crevice corrosion sucks.) That's no guarantee of the future, of course, but I'm pretty forthright and positive about harness use while underway. [1] Incidentally, I've just traded in my Honda Nighthawk 750 for a 2003 Triumph Bonneville America. Haven't taken any pics of it yet, but here's what it looks like (from the Triumph site): http://okopnik.freeshell.org/img/2003_Triumph_America.jpg Mine's got more chrome, a pair of saddlebags, and a sissy bar with a rack on the back. Pretty sweet. :) > Maybe with our collective imput we could develope an "origami" > solution to reboarding when singlehanding and when crewed. Hmmm... I suppose we _could_ wrap people in a sheet of steel which we'll then weld to the deck, but... there seem to be some minor problems with this approach. :) > I don't think the people on this sight are 19 year olds who can do > fifty chin ups. So the majority of us are not pulling ourselves up > the top sides and on to the deck. > It would be interesting to develope a piece of equipment or > procedure to regain the ship which would work in most conditions for > our design of hull and transom.(until Brent designs steps which fold > out and down and back up into a recess in the hull.) > I know for one that if and when I do hit the water I will be > wearing an inflatable vest which may be a hinderance to reboarding > or not. I think that there are two separate problems here: 1) Getting the MOB back and "attached" to the boat 2) Getting them out of the water First, you need to stop the boat relative to the MOB and get the two back in contact ASAP, then provide a way of grabbing on and holding on (muscle power should not be a major factor here, since the MOB might have a broken arm, ribs, whatever from going over.) The first part is up to the person remaining on board (ignoring singlehanders for now); the second can be made a matter of planning ahead. Seems like a harness with double snap shackles would work well here. If you're using a net for recovery (see below), you can now open the gate in your lifelines and carefully lift the bottom corners so as to form a bight around the MOB, then lift the whole package inboard with a halyard. (Feel free to shoot holes in this, by the way; the process of engineering anything has to be iterative, otherwise it's not worth much.) > We went to the new 007 flick the other day. Walking back from the > theatre I asked my wife if she thought I resembled James Bond. > Without a seconds thought she said "no". So I quess it won't be > muscle power that gets me back on board. Brains over brawn is the > solution. > I like that net u can walk up idea. But it would have to be weighted > at the bottom to sink low enought to get a footing. When I was working as an extra in "The Hunt for Red October", and we went out to Long Beach harbor (California) to do the scene where we poor Russian sailors get rescued by the American warship, the USS Gary (although you won't see the name in the credits, that was the ship the US Navy sent us) let down a *heavy*-gauge boarding net to get us on board. It's been a lot of years since, but I'd say it was at least 3/4" diameter nylon. All of us extras were all in fairly good shape, but my impression was that anyone in good enough shape to even walk briskly would be able to use this thing: handholds everywhere, relatively small mesh (about a foot per step), easy on the hands due to the large rope diameter - just a really good gadget for the purpose. A 6'x10' would do pretty well for a Swain boat, I think. 6' is wide enough to support a MOB, 10' is deep enough to hang well into the water and to form the bight; a loop on each corner would help secure it to the toerail and provide a place for retrieval lines attached to the bottom. It would also make a pretty good fender when rolled up and secured outside the toerail (which is where it would be rigged at sea.) How does that sound? -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 12342|12311|2007-01-01 13:54:23|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Ben, > A 6'x10' would do pretty well for a Swain boat, I think. 6' is wide > enough to support a MOB, 10' is deep enough to hang well into the water > and to form the bight; a loop on each corner would help secure it to the > toerail and provide a place for retrieval lines attached to the bottom. > It would also make a pretty good fender when rolled up and secured > outside the toerail (which is where it would be rigged at sea.) How does > that sound? That's the kind of thing I am thinking of. Need to keep the bight open and the bottom in the water to scoop up a casualty but not too much that it got caught in the propeller. The article in the PBO that I referred to showed as one solution using orange plastic builders mesh fencing. It was good but not sure how long it lasts. The only time I have been involved in the rescue of a MOB was when we were in the Blackwater estuary in Essex UK on a Spray type boat with a swim platform on the back and we stopped to pickup a windsurfer whose mast fitting had broken. It was relatively calm and he pulled himself up on to the swim platform and passed up the bits of his wind surfer easily enough. Regards, Ted| 12343|12311|2007-01-01 14:40:14|Jim Burgoyne|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|There have been cases, well, as least one that I know of, where a solo sailor wearing a harness has gone over the side and not had the strength to pull himself back up... and just hung in the water. A stern ladder, that can be released from the water, is pretty much mandatory. I don't have one. I have a small step that folds down. It's a bitch, but usable. If necessary, I could, I think, climb up my Monitor. I do like some designs that have fold down stern swim platforms or ice cream scoops with steps down to the water. Also makes a lot of sense when living on anchor, with swimming and loading and unloading the dinghy. A friend, who is now due now, to sail west from Phuket, has a French aluminum design with an ice cream scoop and says he could never go back. Vanes are usually not a problem, especially with Capehorns which can be installed offset. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12344|12344|2007-01-01 16:00:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|insurance|One myth about metal boats is that they are self-insuring. They are not. You as a boat owner are responsible for your boat. If the boat burns, sinks, is stolen, you have lost a boat. If she damages or sinks another boat, you are responsible. Not just for your boat, but the other boat as well, including everyone aboard. If your boat damages or sinks another yacht, dock, wharf, persons, etc., they can come after you to recover damages, regardless if you were aboard or not. Maybe she drug at anchor, or you lent here to a friend, or she was being rented or chartered. Makes no difference - even if she was stolen and the thief sunk another boat with your boat. If you don't have the money, they can seize your boat and sell her. If you have property or money in the bank, they can seize that as well. I rented my boat out for a year and paid the insurance using part of the rent. I would do the same if I was selling a boat over time. Something happens, the insurance company pays me and they go after the person responsible. In one case I lost a mast and sail. I paid my 10% deductible and the insurance company replaced them, and then went after the manufacturer. A year later, I got a check in the mail refunding my deductible. The question of liability applies as well while you are building a boat. Boat building is plenty dangerous. Something happens, someone is injured or killed you are likely responsible, even if you were off-site picking up parts. Insurance is part of the cost of building. For me, it is not a question of right or wrong, who is at fault or not. Someone get injured or killed, I want to be sure his/her family is cared for. Why should some small kids be stuck paying the cost of my boat for years to come if something goes wrong? Most of us don't have the money or resources to do this without insurance. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12345|12344|2007-01-01 17:19:39|tazmannusa|Re: insurance|I did some checking a while back to get some type of liability insurance on my 26 and it turned out to be a joke couldnt get anything to cover it under construction and after its finished and I get a marine survey then maybe. I just figure its not worth worring about heck I dont have insurance on my other sailboats eather none of the insurance companys I talked to would cover them because I raced them Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > One myth about metal boats is that they are self-insuring. They are not. > You as a boat owner are responsible for your boat. > > > > If the boat burns, sinks, is stolen, you have lost a boat. If she damages > or sinks another boat, you are responsible. Not just for your boat, but the > other boat as well, including everyone aboard. > > > > If your boat damages or sinks another yacht, dock, wharf, persons, etc., > they can come after you to recover damages, regardless if you were aboard or > not. Maybe she drug at anchor, or you lent here to a friend, or she was > being rented or chartered. > > > > Makes no difference - even if she was stolen and the thief sunk another boat > with your boat. If you don't have the money, they can seize your boat and > sell her. If you have property or money in the bank, they can seize that as > well. > > > > I rented my boat out for a year and paid the insurance using part of the > rent. I would do the same if I was selling a boat over time. Something > happens, the insurance company pays me and they go after the person > responsible. > > > > In one case I lost a mast and sail. I paid my 10% deductible and the > insurance company replaced them, and then went after the manufacturer. A > year later, I got a check in the mail refunding my deductible. > > > > The question of liability applies as well while you are building a boat. > Boat building is plenty dangerous. Something happens, someone is injured or > killed you are likely responsible, even if you were off-site picking up > parts. Insurance is part of the cost of building. > > > > For me, it is not a question of right or wrong, who is at fault or not. > Someone get injured or killed, I want to be sure his/her family is cared > for. Why should some small kids be stuck paying the cost of my boat for > years to come if something goes wrong? Most of us don't have the money or > resources to do this without insurance. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12346|12311|2007-01-01 17:31:50|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Mon, Jan 01, 2007 at 06:48:06PM -0000, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Ben, > > > A 6'x10' would do pretty well for a Swain boat, I think. 6' is wide > > enough to support a MOB, 10' is deep enough to hang well into the > water > > and to form the bight; a loop on each corner would help secure it > to the > > toerail and provide a place for retrieval lines attached to the > bottom. > > It would also make a pretty good fender when rolled up and secured > > outside the toerail (which is where it would be rigged at sea.) How > does > > that sound? > > That's the kind of thing I am thinking of. Need to keep the bight > open and the bottom in the water to scoop up a casualty but not too > much that it got caught in the propeller. The article in the PBO > that I referred to showed as one solution using orange plastic > builders mesh fencing. It was good but not sure how long it lasts. That would be one of my concerns - and having seen the stuff, I'm not sure if it would be strong enough (the "good" kind appears to be made from relatively light-gauge oilcloth.) It would be a lot lighter and handier for stowage, but it's certainly nowhere near as strong as 3/4" nylon, would be a bit of hell to climb, and very light - meaning that you'd now have to have weights at the bottom. You'd also have to make up some reinforced eyes for the corners, and maybe do something with the edges. > The only time I have been involved in the rescue of a MOB was when we > were in the Blackwater estuary in Essex UK on a Spray type boat with > a swim platform on the back and we stopped to pickup a windsurfer > whose mast fitting had broken. It was relatively calm and he pulled > himself up on to the swim platform and passed up the bits of his wind > surfer easily enough. I've had a certain weird kind of "luck" in that respect over the past two years: I've pulled out a guy who was drunk and flipped his kayak (losing his dog in the process - the dog, being smarter than his master, immediately swam to shore while the guy continued trying to swim, towing his kayak *and wearing a 70-lb. pack*.) A couple of months later, I pulled out a woman who was 300 lbs. if she was an ounce - her (very skinny) boyfriend had been trying to get her out, at the marina dock, for 40 minutes before I came along (I tried rigging a loop for her to step into, but she just was just too drunk and weak, so I towed her a quarter of a mile to a spot on shore where she could get out.) Last of all, my wife spotted an _osprey_ with a broken wing while the edge of a passing hurricane was dumping rain and gale-force winds on us. http://okopnik.freeshell.org/blog/comment.cgi?name=45-Saturday.September.10.2005 Yeesh. I think I've had my quota of water rescues recently. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12347|12311|2007-01-01 17:59:05|Barry Gorman|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|if ya buy xlarge condoms ya put ya phone innem ! Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin A. Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > life jacket to which is secured my cell phone, portable VHF radio, > whistle, flares and am now looking into a rocket launcher to attract > attention...plus it has a short little pocket that can handle nicely > some condoms should you wash up on something like Giligans Isl. As a > single hander, You could even inflate the condoms to give yourself a little extra flotation - that would keep the cell phone out of the water. :) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12348|12311|2007-01-01 19:44:23|mickeyolaf|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Extra large condoms are only available in Canada. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Gorman" wrote: > > if ya buy xlarge condoms ya put ya phone innem ! > > Barry Gorman > Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA > BarryandPamGorman@... > http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Benjamin A. Okopnik > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:13 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > > life jacket to which is secured my cell phone, portable VHF radio, > > whistle, flares and am now looking into a rocket launcher to attract > > attention...plus it has a short little pocket that can handle nicely > > some condoms should you wash up on something like Giligans Isl. As a > > single hander, > > You could even inflate the condoms to give yourself a little extra > flotation - that would keep the cell phone out of the water. :) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12349|12344|2007-01-01 22:01:51|Mike|Re: insurance|Greg: Don't you mean all boats? I am trying to follow your post, but I see no significant difference - when buying insurance - between building a metal, frp, or wood boat. what exactly is "self-insuring"? Thanks Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > One myth about metal boats is that they are self-insuring. They are not. > You as a boat owner are responsible for your boat. > > > > If the boat burns, sinks, is stolen, you have lost a boat. If she damages > or sinks another boat, you are responsible. Not just for your boat, but the > other boat as well, including everyone aboard. > > > > If your boat damages or sinks another yacht, dock, wharf, persons, etc., > they can come after you to recover damages, regardless if you were aboard or > not. Maybe she drug at anchor, or you lent here to a friend, or she was > being rented or chartered. > > > > Makes no difference - even if she was stolen and the thief sunk another boat > with your boat. If you don't have the money, they can seize your boat and > sell her. If you have property or money in the bank, they can seize that as > well. > > > > I rented my boat out for a year and paid the insurance using part of the > rent. I would do the same if I was selling a boat over time. Something > happens, the insurance company pays me and they go after the person > responsible. > > > > In one case I lost a mast and sail. I paid my 10% deductible and the > insurance company replaced them, and then went after the manufacturer. A > year later, I got a check in the mail refunding my deductible. > > > > The question of liability applies as well while you are building a boat. > Boat building is plenty dangerous. Something happens, someone is injured or > killed you are likely responsible, even if you were off-site picking up > parts. Insurance is part of the cost of building. > > > > For me, it is not a question of right or wrong, who is at fault or not. > Someone get injured or killed, I want to be sure his/her family is cared > for. Why should some small kids be stuck paying the cost of my boat for > years to come if something goes wrong? Most of us don't have the money or > resources to do this without insurance. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12350|12313|2007-01-01 23:56:45|Bill Gilroy|Re: thread now closed|Time to invoke Godwin's Law and close this thread :-) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) -g On 12/31/06, ge@... wrote: > > Others are abusive-controlling comments, "Oh, I'm sorry I insulted you, > what's the matter, can't you take a joke". This is the sort of behavior > typical of bullies and wife-abusers. Others sound like Nazi's. "If you > don't think like we do, you don't belong here. We should have killed > people > that think like you". > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12351|12313|2007-01-02 00:48:55|Barry Gorman|Re: thread now closed|Personally I Would Invoke " Murphy's Law " Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... http://community.webshots.com/user/oldoutboards ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Gilroy To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: thread now closed Time to invoke Godwin's Law and close this thread :-) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12352|12311|2007-01-02 04:51:15|sae140|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burgoyne" wrote: > > There have been cases, well, as least one that I know of, where a solo > sailor wearing a harness has gone over the side and not had the strength to > pull himself back up... and just hung in the water. > > A stern ladder, that can be released from the water, is pretty much > mandatory. I don't have one. I have a small step that folds down. It's a > bitch, but usable. If necessary, I could, I think, climb up my Monitor. > > I do like some designs that have fold down stern swim platforms or ice cream > scoops with steps down to the water. Also makes a lot of sense when living > on anchor, with swimming and loading and unloading the dinghy. A friend, who > is now due now, to sail west from Phuket, has a French aluminum design with > an ice cream scoop and says he could never go back. Vanes are usually not a > problem, especially with Capehorns which can be installed offset. > Whatever recovery system you opt for, I'd suggest trying it out under representative conditions before having any faith in it. Some years back, as an experiment I chucked myself into Cherbourg harbour fully clothed and swam along a line of sterns (much to the amusement/curiosity of those on board) to see which boats - if any - I could have boarded unaided. It became quickly apparent that I was VERY low in the water relative to the height of even the sugar-scoop sterns, and that NONE of the boats could have been boarded without assistance - and that was on a sunny day under dead flat conditions. At the stern of our own boat, the so-called 'swim ladder' had already been lowered with my antics in mind, but even so I couldn't get a foothold as the ladder was only waist-deep. When pulling upwards with my arms, my legs simply slid underneath the ladder, with my thighs thus preventing any further upwards movement. Unaided, the prospect of getting onboard via this ladder was hopeless, and so I swam to the nearest pontoon and hauled myself out. If re-boarding that boat in harbour was impossible, then what chance 'out there' ? I'd say that the lowest foothold for self-recovery needs to be at least 4ft below the surface, and preferably 5 (for a six-footer), unless your legs are supple enough to adopt the buddha posture (!). One factor that needs to be taken into account, is this tendency for the legs (and torso) to 'fold-forward' when holding-on with arms only. Colin| 12353|12311|2007-01-02 05:51:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hi Colin, Thats a good point. Come to think of it when we picked up the windsurfer he was on his board and clambered from that to the swim platform. I have gone into the water to free a rope around the propeller and getting back on board using the stern ladder involved a kind of trapeze technique. Even a little boat is very high when you're at sea level and you get very heavy as you pull yourself out of the water. I think that the Nazis understood this and that is why they continually practiced lifting their arm up so that they could more easily be rescued if they fell in the water. Regards, Ted| 12354|12311|2007-01-02 09:07:26|Bill Jaine|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I fell off our 32 foot boat trying to recover the dog who had fallen in, this was at the wall on a dead flat water. I couldn't get back in to the boat and had to swim for shore.....all of 30 feet around the boat. I'm thinking about using a "cargo net", you know the ones that fit across the back of pick-ups to hold all the junk in, with a couple of stretcher bars at each end to stop it from twisting. Just hang it from the top lifeline and let it drop about 4 feet into the water. definately not at the stern or anywhere near the prop because one jackknifes as you pull yourself onto the boat. It will also roll up neatly. Think back to the last WW, they used cargo nets to save crews from sunken ships. All suggestions welcome. Bill, Port Hope, Ontario > > > At the stern of our own boat, the so-called 'swim ladder' had already > been lowered with my antics in mind, but even so I couldn't get a > foothold as the ladder was only waist-deep. When pulling upwards > with my arms, my legs simply slid underneath the ladder, with my > thighs thus preventing any further upwards movement. Unaided, the > prospect of getting onboard via this ladder was hopeless, and so I > swam to the nearest pontoon and hauled myself out. If re-boarding > that boat in harbour was impossible, then what chance 'out there' ? > > | 12355|12311|2007-01-02 11:37:40|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 08:50:58AM -0500, Bill Jaine wrote: > I fell off our 32 foot boat trying to recover the dog who had fallen in, > this was at the wall on a dead flat water. > I couldn't get back in to the boat and had to swim for shore.....all of > 30 feet around the boat. > I'm thinking about using a "cargo net", you know the ones that fit > across the back of pick-ups to hold all the junk in, with a couple of > stretcher bars at each end to stop it from twisting. Just hang it from > the top lifeline and let it drop about 4 feet into the water. I think that holding your entire weight on the thin edge of that stuff would be extremely painful. I may be wrong - the edge may curl and provide a wider grip - but I would test the heck out of it before relying on it. > definately not at the stern or anywhere near the prop because one > jackknifes as you pull yourself onto the boat. > It will also roll up neatly. > Think back to the last WW, they used cargo nets to save crews from > sunken ships. Their cargo nets were, I believe, the exact kind of thing that I described using to get aboard the USS Gary. The difference is the scale: an actual _cargo_ net - the kind of thing they use in commercial ports to load cargo aboard ships by the ton - is heavy enough to provide a solid grip and plenty of reserve strength. The stuff that they sell for trucks is a way-scaled-down version of it, and assuming that it's going to work the same way is dangerous. > All suggestions welcome. On Ulysses, I have a stern "ladder" which is actually just 1/2" SS rod bent into square C-shapes and welded to the stern. My wife and I use it to climb up all the time - in the summer, we often dive off and swim around the boat for a bit of exercise, or we go down in order to give the dinghy a bit of a scrub. The lowest rung is about 6" from the surface of the water - and although neither of us in an Olympic-class acrobat, we never have any trouble (other than watching out for barnacles and very slippery seaweed growing on that rung) in climbing up, and zero trouble with "jacknifing". Here's how: in order to climb out, I reach up and grab the highest possible rung, then lift up (being in water makes this easy - maybe 10 lbs. of pull is required) and get a knee on that lowest rung. Then, using that knee and both hands, I "walk" my hands up the ladder - again, as high as possible - bend at the waist, and get my foot on that bottom rung. Only at that point - i.e., actually climbing up the ladder - is any significant muscle power required. As I'm describing it, it sounds complicated, but it actually takes less than two or three seconds. Note that my wife is about a foot shorter than I am, and has just as little trouble using it as I do. The only improvement I can think of for this system is making the rungs out of heavier rod (it's a little hard on the knees, especially if you use the center of the rung instead of the corner.) Other than that, it works well. The average "marine" rope ladder, on the other hand, is one of the most useless gadgets ever invented. I've never seen anyone use one successfully due to that very "jack-knife" effect that several people here have described. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12356|12311|2007-01-02 11:47:32|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Aaarrgh, I noticed here that I was unclear on what I meant: On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 11:26:53AM -0500, Benjamin Okopnik wrote: > > On Ulysses, I have a stern "ladder" which is actually just 1/2" SS rod > bent into square C-shapes and welded to the stern. My wife and I use it > to climb up all the time - in the summer, we often dive off and swim > around the boat for a bit of exercise, or we go down in order to give > the dinghy a bit of a scrub. The lowest rung is about 6" from the > surface of the water That should be "below the surface of the water". -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * | 12357|12311|2007-01-02 11:57:07|Michael Casling|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|We did a lot of swimming this year along with folks from other boats. We tested all the boats available. Reboarding is a big problem. As the net or ladder swings under the boat it takes away most of the use of the legs. And most folks can not pull themselves up by their arms. So for many, the ladder must be solid under the water. But that only works in calm conditions for capable folks. A swim platform close to the water will work in waves stern on, as it dips into the water. But that still needs help from folks onboard. The way they land big fish. The net idea has appeal to me. A fit person could climb aboard and a rescued person could be rolled / lifted on board. Equally important I think is the boat should be stopped as quickly as possible. Even drifting the boat will travel faster than most folks can swim. Being towed by a boat at any speed, will cause you to go under as Brent has said. My harness is attached at my chest, which may be okay with guys on board to help me in. I will have to reconsider what to do when alone or with only one other crew. A lollie scoop ( sugar scoop ) is planned for my 28 foot boat. At the moment I have a small swim grid. I have the round solid ring at the transom and the horse show ring, but the person in the water must be able to attach themselves. Good thread, good comments. The negative side to our swimming activities is that some of us got a nasty bacterial infection from the lake, that needs very powerfull drugs to remove. When I asked some doctors where this stuff exists they said everywhere, but is more pronounced in some areas. It can infect us through a small scratch in the skin. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > I fell off our 32 foot boat trying to recover the dog who had fallen in, > this was at the wall on a dead flat water. > I couldn't get back in to the boat and had to swim for shore.....all of > 30 feet around the boat. > I'm thinking about using a "cargo net", you know the ones that fit > across the back of pick-ups to hold all the junk in, with a couple of > stretcher bars at each end to stop it from twisting. Just hang it from > the top lifeline and let it drop about 4 feet into the water. > definately not at the stern or anywhere near the prop because one > jackknifes as you pull yourself onto the boat. > It will also roll up neatly. > Think back to the last WW, they used cargo nets to save crews from > sunken ships. > All suggestions welcome. > Bill, Port Hope, Ontario > > > > > > > At the stern of our own boat, the so-called 'swim ladder' had already > > been lowered with my antics in mind, but even so I couldn't get a > > foothold as the ladder was only waist-deep. When pulling upwards > > with my arms, my legs simply slid underneath the ladder, with my > > thighs thus preventing any further upwards movement. Unaided, the > > prospect of getting onboard via this ladder was hopeless, and so I > > swam to the nearest pontoon and hauled myself out. If re-boarding > > that boat in harbour was impossible, then what chance 'out there' ? > > > > > | 12358|12311|2007-01-02 12:44:21|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 04:47:58PM -0000, Michael Casling wrote: > > Equally important I > think is the boat should be stopped as quickly as possible. Even > drifting the boat will travel faster than most folks can swim. Agreed. It's important to tune your rig so you have just a little lee helm - but it's also very important to see how your boat behaves when left to herself with no steering. The _proper_ behavior is that she should fall off the wind, then round back up and drift slowly to leeward. Some racing boats, especially if they have a big jib and a small main, will actually just fall off and then run downwind without anyone at the helm; that's really ugly for any single-hander. It means that the boat will leave you. A properly-designed and tuned boat will just drift down on you slowly (assuming you were beating, which is how you get places in a boat. Any desired destination is _always_ to windward. :) > I will have to reconsider what to do when > alone or with only one other crew. A lollie scoop ( sugar scoop ) is > planned for my 28 foot boat. I wonder if having a main block - i.e., a 6-1 or so purchase with a clam cleat led from the top of the stern railing - would be a good idea? Get yourself attached to the boat, then take your time and winch yourself up - or, if there's anyone else on board, they can pick up the fall from where it's hanging down and pull you in. > The negative side to our swimming activities is that some of us got a > nasty bacterial infection from the lake, that needs very powerfull > drugs to remove. When I asked some doctors where this stuff exists > they said everywhere, but is more pronounced in some areas. It can > infect us through a small scratch in the skin. [sigh] Yeah. The Veterans' Administration hospital here has been battling my sinus infection for a couple of years now - with some success, but they're not done yet. I picked it up in the Charlotte Amalie harbor, in the USVIs, more than 7 years ago. Folks, *please* wear a mask or at least noseplugs when you go swimming anywhere near human habitation; having this stuff can be pretty miserable. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12359|12311|2007-01-02 14:20:11|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Few people have the strength to pull themselves up a rope against the force of water, if the boat has any sort of speed. Have someone pull you behind a ski boat and see how little it takes to defeat you - or to drown you. Keep your tether short, even if it makes work aboard more difficult. If you go in, this will hold you high enough to get a purchase on the gunwales and work yourself back aboard. Otherwise, you have to work yourself back to the stern, which can be next to impossible if your tether fouls on a stanchion. It is a brave soul that will cut free and trust to luck they can catch the stern as it sails by. A line trailing behind the boat will hold you attached, hoping the boat will stop before you drown or end up bait. Much better to consider the ocean what it really is offshore - molten lava. If you go in, you have just about as much chance of surviving. Wear a harness always. Clip in at the bottom of the companionway, unclip the same. Keep the tether short. A step can be incorporated into an aft-hung rudder for emergencies. The Bones has a lifting ring on the rudder, at the waterline where the trim-tab attaches, that serves equally as a step. The shaft on the trim tab provides a good hand hold for climbing, so long as it is made strong enough. Sugar scoops have pretty much taken over as the design of choice, because of their strength, simplicity, and ease of use. Almost without exception, the ladies prefer built-in steps at the stern over any ladder. I don't like any exposed folding structures at the stern, especially large swim grids. I always expect something like that will work its way lose at the worst possible time, tearing away hinges and hull. One boat we sailed with had a swim ladder that slid into the sugar scoop. Bullet proof underway, it sat in a shallow box welded under the floor of the SS, and slid out through a narrow slot. Security is always a concern when you have steps or ladders, SS included. I've found over the years that if someone wants to come aboard for the wrong reasons, they will find a way without your help. A fit swimmer can almost always pull themselves aboard any anchored boat, steps or not. More likely they will have a dugout, and climb aboard forward. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burgoyne Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 11:23 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses There have been cases, well, as least one that I know of, where a solo sailor wearing a harness has gone over the side and not had the strength to pull himself back up... and just hung in the water. A stern ladder, that can be released from the water, is pretty much mandatory. I don't have one. I have a small step that folds down. It's a bitch, but usable. If necessary, I could, I think, climb up my Monitor. I do like some designs that have fold down stern swim platforms or ice cream scoops with steps down to the water. Also makes a lot of sense when living on anchor, with swimming and loading and unloading the dinghy. A friend, who is now due now, to sail west from Phuket, has a French aluminum design with an ice cream scoop and says he could never go back. Vanes are usually not a problem, especially with Capehorns which can be installed offset. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12360|12311|2007-01-02 15:47:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>> [sigh] Yeah. The Veterans' Administration hospital here has been >>battling my sinus infection for a couple of years now - with some >>success, but they're not done yet. I picked it up in the Charlotte >>Amalie harbor, in the USVIs, more than 7 years ago. Folks, *please* wear >>a mask or at least noseplugs when you go swimming anywhere near human >>habitation; having this stuff can be pretty miserable. There is something in tropical waters that is a real problem if you catch it - and yes I caught it near human habitation. I was wearing a mask at the time, cleaning the hull. I went from 190 lbs fit, to 145 lbs weak as a puppy, in two months before I flew back for emergency sinus surgery. I was lucky, it was eating the bone outward, rather than inward, else my sailing days would have ended. However, surgery is not a cure. It just keeps you alive. None of the antibiotics seem to help, except maybe biaxin (clarithromycin). Some of the newer anti-fungals helped a lot, but they are big $$, and eventually resistance sets in. Once you get this bug, I think you have it for life. The positive side is that the symptoms do decrease with time, as your immune system comes to grips, but it sure takes time. 14 years from miserable to bearable, and the first 5 were hell. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12361|12311|2007-01-02 17:16:51|mickeyolaf|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|You are absolutely right about the mask and plugs. The sinus infection I obtained swimming in the ocean off Barbados almost killed me. The worst case the Canadian specialist said he had ever seen. I asked him what would have happened if I had stayed in Barbados longer and he said an autopsy. The only cure was 10 days in the hospital in Vancouver, a hole drilled thru my eyebrow and a flushing saline/antibiotic drip direct into the sinus. Even then it was years before I was really fixed. That eyebrow plumbing job might be the fix for u Ben if it never cures. I had a rubber tube in my eyebrow for 10 days but it sure was the cure in the end. Swimming in the ocean where there is a large concentration of humans nearby is a bad practice. I was in Hong Kong last year and I can't imagine what you would contact falling into that harbour. We have a stainless guru guy here in Vancouver and I am going to take him some pictures of Swain boats and see what he thinks about working up a recovery ladder for Brent's designs. Something deployable from the water and good for everyday use that is not hokey, weak, or expensive. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 04:47:58PM -0000, Michael Casling wrote: > > > > Equally important I > > think is the boat should be stopped as quickly as possible. Even > > drifting the boat will travel faster than most folks can swim. > > Agreed. It's important to tune your rig so you have just a little lee > helm - but it's also very important to see how your boat behaves when > left to herself with no steering. The _proper_ behavior is that she > should fall off the wind, then round back up and drift slowly to > leeward. Some racing boats, especially if they have a big jib and a > small main, will actually just fall off and then run downwind without > anyone at the helm; that's really ugly for any single-hander. It means > that the boat will leave you. A properly-designed and tuned boat will > just drift down on you slowly (assuming you were beating, which is how > you get places in a boat. Any desired destination is _always_ to > windward. :) > > > I will have to reconsider what to do when > > alone or with only one other crew. A lollie scoop ( sugar scoop ) is > > planned for my 28 foot boat. > > I wonder if having a main block - i.e., a 6-1 or so purchase with a clam > cleat led from the top of the stern railing - would be a good idea? Get > yourself attached to the boat, then take your time and winch yourself up > - or, if there's anyone else on board, they can pick up the fall from > where it's hanging down and pull you in. > > > The negative side to our swimming activities is that some of us got a > > nasty bacterial infection from the lake, that needs very powerfull > > drugs to remove. When I asked some doctors where this stuff exists > > they said everywhere, but is more pronounced in some areas. It can > > infect us through a small scratch in the skin. > > [sigh] Yeah. The Veterans' Administration hospital here has been > battling my sinus infection for a couple of years now - with some > success, but they're not done yet. I picked it up in the Charlotte > Amalie harbor, in the USVIs, more than 7 years ago. Folks, *please* wear > a mask or at least noseplugs when you go swimming anywhere near human > habitation; having this stuff can be pretty miserable. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12362|12311|2007-01-02 20:07:52|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 12:31:07PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > >> [sigh] Yeah. The Veterans' Administration hospital here has been > >>battling my sinus infection for a couple of years now - with some > >>success, but they're not done yet. I picked it up in the Charlotte > >>Amalie harbor, in the USVIs, more than 7 years ago. Folks, *please* wear > >>a mask or at least noseplugs when you go swimming anywhere near human > >>habitation; having this stuff can be pretty miserable. > > There is something in tropical waters that is a real problem if you catch it > - and yes I caught it near human habitation. I was wearing a mask at the > time, cleaning the hull. I went from 190 lbs fit, to 145 lbs weak as a > puppy, in two months before I flew back for emergency sinus surgery. > > I was lucky, it was eating the bone outward, rather than inward, else my > sailing days would have ended. However, surgery is not a cure. It just > keeps you alive. None of the antibiotics seem to help, except maybe biaxin > (clarithromycin). Some of the newer anti-fungals helped a lot, but they are > big $$, and eventually resistance sets in. > > Once you get this bug, I think you have it for life. The positive side is > that the symptoms do decrease with time, as your immune system comes to > grips, but it sure takes time. 14 years from miserable to bearable, and the > first 5 were hell. I don't envy you in the least, but I don't think that we have the same problem; one of the first things the VA did is send me for a CAT scan (I gather they suspected the bug that you're reporting.) The antifungals killed off that part of the problem pretty quickly - a rather nasty 21-day course of them that had me dizzy for the last week of it - but they're still working on the bacterial bit. Some people I knew in the islands made a practice out of rinsing off with fresh water every time they came out of the salt; I thought they were a little overcautious at the time. Nowadays, I have a 2-gallon black plastic garden sprayer aboard (one of the most useful things ever on a boat!), and use it much the same way, including rinsing my mouth and nose as well as all the other bits. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12363|12311|2007-01-02 21:49:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>one of the first things the VA did is send me for a CAT scan (I >>gather they suspected the bug that you're reporting.) The antifungals >>killed off that part of the problem pretty quickly - a rather nasty >>21-day course of them that had me dizzy for the last week of it - but >>they're still working on the bacterial bit. >>Some people I knew in the islands made a practice out of rinsing off >>with fresh water every time they came out of the salt; I thought they >>were a little overcautious at the time. Nowadays, I have a 2-gallon >>black plastic garden sprayer aboard (one of the most useful things ever >>on a boat!), and use it much the same way, including rinsing my mouth >>and nose as well as all the other bits. 110% agree on the fresh water rinse, every time. Soap, rubbing alcohol, all help if used early. We are the same temp and salinity as tropical salt water, which makes us near perfect incubators. Anywhere there are people there will be microbes adapted to eat them. We had a garden sprayer on the previous boat. Worked very well, takes almost no room. Very convenient. The Bones has a 35 gallon blue plastic drum on deck to feed a shower in the head. Works very well also, and the girls like the privacy. Simple, solar heated, and not connected to the drinking water. You can find these drums everywhere, and they don't rot in the sun, even after years in the tropics. Any information you might have from the VA, I'd appreciate. If I can put a name to the organism, or a treatment, I've got a couple of doctors that would do hand springs. Tropical disease is not a big field of study in Canada, but tropical vacations are. Thanks, Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12364|12311|2007-01-02 22:49:04|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 06:34:46PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > Any information you might have from the VA, I'd appreciate. If I can put a > name to the organism, or a treatment, I've got a couple of doctors that > would do hand springs. Tropical disease is not a big field of study in > Canada, but tropical vacations are. Greg, next time I'm there, I'll see if I can get all the specifics on paper (or better yet, in electronic form) and forward them to you. It'll probably be a while - my appointments tend to run on about a two-month cycle, and I just had a follow-up CAT scan less than a month ago - but I'll definitely talk to them about it. Just FYI, Walter Reed Army Medical Center near Washington DC has one of the best tropical disease research centers in the world. Your doctor should be able to ping them for more diagnostic, etc. info. They also have a facility in Bangkok, the Armed Forces Research Institute of Medical Sciences. These are all military hospitals, but from everything I know, they're willing to share info with qualified medical personnel anywhere. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12365|12311|2007-01-03 05:42:28|sae140|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > We have a stainless guru guy here in Vancouver and I am going to take > him some pictures of Swain boats and see what he thinks about working > up a recovery ladder for Brent's designs. Something deployable from > the water and good for everyday use that is not hokey, weak, or expensive. > Brent shows a "single-pole" drop-down ladder in his book. I reckon that's probably about as good as it gets for a stern ladder, although an extra hinge-down section could easily be added if it's found that extra depth is needed for those of us with stiff and ageing limbs. To drop this pole-ladder from the water-line could easily be achieved with a hanging line and pin-release, although some means of preventing it from denting the swimmer's skull in the process would be highly desirable. With any recovery mechanism, I think it's important that the mechanism and it's operation be immediately understandable to *anyone* seeing it for the first time, as a complete novice may be called upon to use it without training. Colin| 12366|12311|2007-01-03 14:58:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>Greg, next time I'm there, I'll see if I can get all the specifics on >>paper (or better yet, in electronic form) and forward them to you. Thanks Ben, that would be great. Doctors in Canada typically don't have time to do research for exceptional problems, unless it is life threatening. If you are simply miserable, it falls to the patient. I have found that if you can bring them treatment options, with credentials like Walter Reed, they will follow up. Otherwise, they don't have enough hours in the day. Thanks again, Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12367|12311|2007-01-03 17:20:30|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Solid ladders , other than rungs on a transom, will beat anyone in the water senseless or cut them to shreds in any kind of swell. They are for flat water use only. A rope ladder or scrambling net would be far less dangerous in rough water. In Canada ,since they lost so many people who fell in and couldn't get back aboard , reboarding devices have been made mandatory, a good idea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > We have a stainless guru guy here in Vancouver and I am going to > take > > him some pictures of Swain boats and see what he thinks about > working > > up a recovery ladder for Brent's designs. Something deployable from > > the water and good for everyday use that is not hokey, weak, or > expensive. > > > > > Brent shows a "single-pole" drop-down ladder in his book. I reckon > that's probably about as good as it gets for a stern ladder, although > an extra hinge-down section could easily be added if it's found that > extra depth is needed for those of us with stiff and ageing limbs. > To drop this pole-ladder from the water-line could easily be achieved > with a hanging line and pin-release, although some means of > preventing it from denting the swimmer's skull in the process would > be highly desirable. > > With any recovery mechanism, I think it's important that the > mechanism and it's operation be immediately understandable to > *anyone* seeing it for the first time, as a complete novice may be > called upon to use it without training. > > Colin > | 12368|12336|2007-01-03 17:44:48|brentswain38|Re: Mast and rigging|Having worked on a brake press for many years I can say that flattening tubing in a 20 ft bed brake press involves about five minutes worth of labour. I coated my latest galv rig with epoxy tar, hockey tape , more epoxy tar , then split plastic tubing. I believe it's good for my lifetime, far longer than I would ever trust stainless for. A frind did a circumnavigation with stainless rigging. When I pointed out a crack in one of his clevis pins he said "Yes,I know it all has to be replaced . When I took one out the other day it fell apart like broken glass. Another friend, after doing a trip from BC to New Zealand and back, told me "Everything I had which was made out of stainless, aluminium , or so called exotic metal , broke. I replaced it with rusty steel, and it never broke again. I switched to double backstays several years ago, and the room in my cockpit seemed to increase drastically. The single backstay was in the middle of the cockpit. One backstay is my ham antenna and the other is my shortwave receiver antenna. Twin headstays can be a problem. Hal Roth mentioned that when one was under load the other went slack and hanks got around both. He solved the problem with a triangular shaped plate with one corner on the stemhead and each of the other two attached to a stay. With roller furling, chafe on the rolled sail by a bare stay will make short work of the sail. Roller furling makes another stay redundant. With a well balanced hull, I find that poling out a jib with the main out the other way works well enough, and is easier to deal with when the wind changes. A jib between the main and the headstay, set flying on it's own luff wire and sheeted in hard ,is a big advantage in light winds, both for speed and self steering. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Aaron, > > > > Most successful boats are based on existing designs. We typically work > backwards from an existing design that someone likes, that has already > proven itself. We redo the hull in origami and leave the rest pretty much > as is. > > > > There is lots of room to substitute when building the boat, depending on > your mix of skill, time and money as well as your intended use for the boat. > Wood, steel and alloy all work for sticks, with various tradeoffs that have > been discussed at length on this site. > > > > My preference is for an alloy stick. As with all things, there are fancy, > expensive versions and plain, economy versions. Check what you get for the > price – what is included in addition to the tube? You can also fabricate > from tubing. I've seen lots of Kiwi boats done this way, the tubing > flattened through rollers to shape. > > > > I like a masthead cutter rig for offshore. Double spreaders, double > headstays, double backs. Replace the running backs with permanent > intermediates. No single failure can bring down the rig. Lots of sail > options to suit conditions. I copied a Hans Christian when I modified the > Bones. Why re-invent the wheel? Find a boat, same general size and weight > - that works well for your intended purpose - and copy what they did. > > > > As boat size increases, I'd expect to see a second mast. I've seen a bunch > of equal height schooners over the years. Lots of options there to use > furling gear to best advantage. Single spreaders are good enough with > redundant masts. Single mast, insurance companies usually want double > spreaders for offshore. Fractional rigs don't belong offshore, except for > racing or similar. > > > > Galvanized wire is great, though you do need to get out and oil it. > Stainless wire, with staylock style terminators works well, however they are > big $$. You pretty much need stainless for hanked headsails. Swaged > fittings are pretty much a disaster offshore over time. I'm always leery of > anything stainless. Last month I was putting the Bones away after a month > of sailing. A 316 stainless, ¾" bolt broke in two as I started to turn it. > Maybe 20 lbs pressure on a small, 6" wrench - crevice corrosion under the > nut. > > > > Modern rigs are going with less wire, swept spreaders. This is more for > performance. For offshore cruising in remote locations, you want something > with more redundancy. Beating to weather on a dirty night, somewhere off > the coast of Borneo in the South China Sea, the last thing you want is > another thing to worry about. > > > > When thinking offshore, always think single point failures. If you can > handle them and make the repairs before another failure, you will be fine. > The problems start when either your design cannot handle single point > failures, or something fails and you don't make repairs before something > else goes wrong. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Aaron Williams > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:29 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Mast and rigging > > > > Greg > What type of mast and rigging do you use on the boats that you design? > Aaron > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail. yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12369|12311|2007-01-03 17:46:23|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Attaching the tether to the top of the shoulder makes it possible to pull yourself in . With any other attachement point it becomes impossible to pull yourself in,and the front of chest attachement point insures you will drown in your own bow wave quite quickly . This happened in the Farallons race on a fully crewed race boat a few years back, before the crew could get the boat stopped or before they could pull him in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burgoyne" wrote: > > There have been cases, well, as least one that I know of, where a solo > sailor wearing a harness has gone over the side and not had the strength to > pull himself back up... and just hung in the water. > > A stern ladder, that can be released from the water, is pretty much > mandatory. I don't have one. I have a small step that folds down. It's a > bitch, but usable. If necessary, I could, I think, climb up my Monitor. > > I do like some designs that have fold down stern swim platforms or ice cream > scoops with steps down to the water. Also makes a lot of sense when living > on anchor, with swimming and loading and unloading the dinghy. A friend, who > is now due now, to sail west from Phuket, has a French aluminum design with > an ice cream scoop and says he could never go back. Vanes are usually not a > problem, especially with Capehorns which can be installed offset. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12370|12311|2007-01-03 17:47:41|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|If you are winter cruising, and have a winter jacket large enough to wear a compact lifejacket under , it offers a huge amount of extra insulation. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Hey there... I was up there this summer as well and out in Hecate > Straight. I use a sea kayak lifejacket which is short, comfortable > and has, I believe 6 or more mesh and cloth pockets plus bucha clips > and tabs. So in other words on deck, I have this short comfortable > life jacket to which is secured my cell phone, portable VHF radio, > whistle, flares and am now looking into a rocket launcher to attract > attention...plus it has a short little pocket that can handle nicely > some condoms should you wash up on something like Giligans Isl. As a > single hander, the kayak jacket offers a bit of confidence when on > deck. > > Gary > | 12371|12344|2007-01-03 18:03:00|brentswain38|Re: insurance|When I lost my first boat on a Fijian Coral reef , it cost me less to replace her than it would have cost to insure her for the time I had been cruising .Keep your boat cheap ,strong and strictly functional and you'll have far more stress free and enjoyable cruising. Liability is porportionate to your ability to pay. Liens can not stick to K number boats which don't have federal registry. When you register such a boat ( like a couple of days before selling her) It registers clear title. That is why banks won't lend money on a K numbered boat . They lost their shirts that way in the 80's. The only experience I had with making an insurance claim was when I fell off a boat in Sausalito years ago. The company I'd bought travel insurance from "Travel Underwrtiters Worldwide Mediclaim" flatly refused to pay because I didn't have a credit card for them to put my expenses on and force me to go to court to get reimbursed.I've since met people with similar experiences with that company. I'm thus reluctant to put much faith in promises on an insurrance policy given that when a claim is made , unlike a publicly owned insurance company ,their first priority is to find a way to weasel out of paying, and throwing up enough hurdles and roadblaocks to force you to give up your claim. I would have had to give up years of cruising and put up with people I didn't want aboard if I'd insisted on insuring every boat I had. I probably would have lost the dream, and wound up spending most of my life on the treadmill, like the rest of the crowd. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > One myth about metal boats is that they are self-insuring. They are not. > You as a boat owner are responsible for your boat. > > > > If the boat burns, sinks, is stolen, you have lost a boat. If she damages > or sinks another boat, you are responsible. Not just for your boat, but the > other boat as well, including everyone aboard. > > > > If your boat damages or sinks another yacht, dock, wharf, persons, etc., > they can come after you to recover damages, regardless if you were aboard or > not. Maybe she drug at anchor, or you lent here to a friend, or she was > being rented or chartered. > > > > Makes no difference - even if she was stolen and the thief sunk another boat > with your boat. If you don't have the money, they can seize your boat and > sell her. If you have property or money in the bank, they can seize that as > well. > > > > I rented my boat out for a year and paid the insurance using part of the > rent. I would do the same if I was selling a boat over time. Something > happens, the insurance company pays me and they go after the person > responsible. > > > > In one case I lost a mast and sail. I paid my 10% deductible and the > insurance company replaced them, and then went after the manufacturer. A > year later, I got a check in the mail refunding my deductible. > > > > The question of liability applies as well while you are building a boat. > Boat building is plenty dangerous. Something happens, someone is injured or > killed you are likely responsible, even if you were off-site picking up > parts. Insurance is part of the cost of building. > > > > For me, it is not a question of right or wrong, who is at fault or not. > Someone get injured or killed, I want to be sure his/her family is cared > for. Why should some small kids be stuck paying the cost of my boat for > years to come if something goes wrong? Most of us don't have the money or > resources to do this without insurance. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12372|12344|2007-01-03 18:05:25|brentswain38|Re: insurance|Theyd love to sell you fire and lightening insurance for a steel boat--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Greg: > Don't you mean all boats? I am trying to follow your post, but I see > no significant difference - when buying insurance - between building > a metal, frp, or wood boat. what exactly is "self-insuring"? > Thanks > Mike > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > One myth about metal boats is that they are self-insuring. They > are not. > > You as a boat owner are responsible for your boat. > > > > > > > > If the boat burns, sinks, is stolen, you have lost a boat. If she > damages > > or sinks another boat, you are responsible. Not just for your > boat, but the > > other boat as well, including everyone aboard. > > > > > > > > If your boat damages or sinks another yacht, dock, wharf, persons, > etc., > > they can come after you to recover damages, regardless if you were > aboard or > > not. Maybe she drug at anchor, or you lent here to a friend, or > she was > > being rented or chartered. > > > > > > > > Makes no difference - even if she was stolen and the thief sunk > another boat > > with your boat. If you don't have the money, they can seize your > boat and > > sell her. If you have property or money in the bank, they can > seize that as > > well. > > > > > > > > I rented my boat out for a year and paid the insurance using part > of the > > rent. I would do the same if I was selling a boat over time. > Something > > happens, the insurance company pays me and they go after the person > > responsible. > > > > > > > > In one case I lost a mast and sail. I paid my 10% deductible and > the > > insurance company replaced them, and then went after the > manufacturer. A > > year later, I got a check in the mail refunding my deductible. > > > > > > > > The question of liability applies as well while you are building a > boat. > > Boat building is plenty dangerous. Something happens, someone is > injured or > > killed you are likely responsible, even if you were off-site > picking up > > parts. Insurance is part of the cost of building. > > > > > > > > For me, it is not a question of right or wrong, who is at fault or > not. > > Someone get injured or killed, I want to be sure his/her family is > cared > > for. Why should some small kids be stuck paying the cost of my > boat for > > years to come if something goes wrong? Most of us don't have the > money or > > resources to do this without insurance. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12373|12311|2007-01-03 21:06:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|A well designed harness system prevents you from going into the water, because once there your odds of survival are very low. The hull speed of a 6 foot person is about 3.25 knots. Beyond that, you make a wave that makes it near impossible to get back aboard, that will drown you given the slightest opportunity. Anyone that has done much water-skiing will have experienced this, if you have held onto the rope when starting, after your skis fell off. Have someone tow you at 6-7 knots behind a boat if there is any doubt. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12374|12311|2007-01-04 04:07:03|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hi All I'm a member of the local volunteer coastguard and we've been trained never to try to get anybody on board over the stern even though there is a wide platform there next to the engines (motors are put into neutral as soon as we approach anyone in the water). The reason is exactly what Gary referred to. Even if you can get onto the ladder, any pitching will be magnified at the ends of the boat and it is very easy to slip with disastrous consequences. I learned this lesson the hard way when I broke at least one rib, possibly two, getting back on board a recreational dive boat last year. The gear we carry for MoB and other retrievals is a Jason's Cradle, a large plastic grid like device that is articulated so that it can roll up tightly in one direction but if rolled in the other direction locks into a half-pipe shape into which the casualty can be climb or be floated. The cradle is then lifted by tackle attached to the outboard end and run to a central mast just aft of our bridge. We've actually used this to retrieve a sea-kayaker still in his boat. The cradle is mounted on pad eyes welded to the deck of the RIB ahead of the port and starboard quarters, where the freeboard is least and pitching is relatively moderate on our 12.5 metre boat. We do practice with it regularly and I would suggest anyone who rigs anything like it for their own boat do the same as it is not as easy to use as it might seem. I have contemplated a much more light weight version for a small launch, made from very heavy gauge fishing net (a fragment of a commercial net found by a friend) with a batten on one edge to ensure it hold its shape. The tackle would have to be held out away from the boat with a boathook, however. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe 8 Knoll Street Island Bay, Wellington NEW ZEALAND +64 (04) 934 1407 027 563 5018 They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas Sent: Monday, 1 January 2007 9:07 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to recall that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries to kill anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a stern swim ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the slightest bit rough. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:19PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: >> I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so >> that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are >> older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. >> Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would not be >> easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch >> would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet >> person was wearing a strong harness. >> But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can >> climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled >> there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would >> be up that ladder pretty fast. > > Please do consider the situation in which the person overboard is hurt, > and _cannot_ pull themselves up - no matter what they were able to do > when in top condition. I've seen people try the "drop the sail in the > water" drill, and watched the MOB slip right out of it. > > One of the things I'm planning on adding to Ulysses is a fold-down stern > platform: two big tabs on the hull plus a couple of stainless "chafe > points", a big stainless pipe bent (or cut and welded) into a U shape > with stops on the open ends, and some of that gray rot-proof "plastic > wood" that's sold at Home Depot and the like. If it's just a couple of > inches higher than the water, it's easy to roll onto even if you're hurt > or weak, and the person on board can help you without endangering > themselves. The fact that it can be kicked up means you don't pay any > more per foot if you ever have to pull into a marina, and if it's made > wide enough, it can be used as a way to keep your dinghy off the deck > (lashed against the stern) and still have enough room to stand on. > >> The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to >> join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull yourself >> into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. > > I don't know that it's a fair test, since it's partly strength and > largely skill. It's one of the first things I taught my wife when she > came aboard. > >> I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the >> davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be >> really strong. >> North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for >> swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. > > Heh. You Canadians have antifreeze instead of blood. :) Me, if the water > temps are below 75degF or so, I sail south. > > On the other hand, when I was a kid in Russia, my best friend's father > was a "Walrus" (that was the name of the ice swimmers' club there, if I > recall it correctly.) We'd tromp out to the middle of the lake with an > ax, and Gena would chop out a hole for his dad to swim in; the old man > would come up jogging in his undies, dive in, and swim around for a > while, huffing great clouds of steam. After he got out, he'd suck down > the half-liter bottle of vodka that he brought with him, and jog back > home (no drying off - that would be for sissies!) That was back in the > late 60s or early 70s; the old man is probably still around, since any > disease would be *afraid* to live in his body. :) > >> Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim >> grid/steps into a future design? > > I think that it would be a _very_ cool addition to these boats. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * HYPERLINK "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: 3/01/2007 1:34 p.m. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: 3/01/2007 1:34 p.m. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12375|12311|2007-01-04 10:21:21|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hi Jim, Thanks for that info. I had never heard of a Jason's Cradle before although that is what I thinking of, a scrambling net combined barrel lift device although I couldn't work out how to make the net stop being awkward and trapping ones fingers.. Their web page has a video of it being used in different situations. It looks an excellent bit of kit. www.jasonscradle.co.uk Regards, Ted| 12376|12311|2007-01-04 12:14:59|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 11:19:48AM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > Much better to consider the ocean what it really is offshore - molten lava. > If you go in, you have just about as much chance of surviving. Wear a > harness always. Clip in at the bottom of the companionway, unclip the same. > Keep the tether short. Not a bad image. I like the Pardey's approach, as well: they look each other in the eye before a long passage, and say out loud: "if you fall in, you're dead." Useful reminder. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12377|12311|2007-01-04 12:36:15|Aaron Williams|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Anyone see the news about the guy from Calif. to broke down off the coast of Chile. 2 Broken mast and broken hatches? "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 11:19:48AM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > Much better to consider the ocean what it really is offshore - molten lava. > If you go in, you have just about as much chance of surviving. Wear a > harness always. Clip in at the bottom of the companionway, unclip the same. > Keep the tether short. Not a bad image. I like the Pardey's approach, as well: they look each other in the eye before a long passage, and say out loud: "if you fall in, you're dead." Useful reminder. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12378|12311|2007-01-04 13:35:37|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Greg, Ben, You are right, the sea rarely just takes prisoners. This incident was reported on the BBC News on December 29th last (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6217471.stm): "Two crew die in submarine tragedy The nuclear-powered submarine is based at Norfolk, Virginia Two crew members of an American submarine have died after falling overboard in Plymouth Sound. They were among four crewmen who were working in poor weather on the outside casing of the USS Minneapolis-St Paul off the Devon coast. A rescue helicopter from RNAS Culdrose, a tug boat and a lifeboat were sent to the men's aid while they were tied on to the side of the 110m (362ft) vessel. The sailors were brought back to shore and taken by ambulance to hospital. A spokesman for Brixham Coastguard said: "The four got into difficulties while on the outer casing of the submarine. "They were unable to get back on board, they were tied on but getting battered about by the weather." The submarine was getting under way from the Devonport naval base Two men appeared to be breathing with difficulty and were given CPR as they approached the shore. They were taken to Derriford hospital in Plymouth, where two of the servicemen were pronounced dead. The two other men were transferred to the sick bay at HMS Drake and later released." On a sea survival course with an inflable life raft in a swimming pool wearing temperate climate clothes we found it very difficult to pull ourselves out og the water into the raft. Without an internal ladder in the raft it would have been impossible.| 12379|12311|2007-01-04 13:53:02|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>I like the Pardey's approach, as well: they look each >>other in the eye before a long passage, and say out loud: "if you fall >>in, you're dead." Useful reminder. Absolutely. When you think retrieval devices, think "bodies" not sailors. Your safety gear should be designed to keep you out of the water. If anything, retrieval devices give you a false sense of security. Like walking around a city late at night with a gun in your pocket. Without the gun, you would think twice. Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12380|12344|2007-01-04 14:51:27|John Foster|Forward looking sonar|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When I lost my first boat on a Fijian Coral reef , it cost me less to > replace her than it would have cost to insure her for the time I had > been cruising .Keep your boat cheap ,strong and strictly functional > and you'll have far more stress free and enjoyable cruising. SNIP Since the chart datums in cruising areas are notorious for misleading GPS users, you might consider forward looking sonar to avaoid reefs, find opening in reefs, find openings into harbors and so on. Take a look at the iScan180 from Interphase-Tech I bought forward looking sonar before any other piece of gear. To quote their web site "With 3,000 watts of peak-to-peak power and ranges up to 1,200 feet ahead, the Interphase iScan 180 is a truly unique tool for detecting hazards like submerged shipping containers, "deadheads," rock pinnacles, coral reefs and shallow water conditions and the 180-degree horizontal scan mode is ideal for following channels or finding safe passage through reefs." John| 12381|12381|2007-01-04 17:49:56|Aaron|Hookah system|I think brent mentioned something about a hookah system awhile back. I just found this http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/metaldetective.html 12 volt hookah| 12382|12311|2007-01-04 20:09:20|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|The British did the tests at 4 knots . With the attachement at the chest or at the back it was impossible to pull oneself in. With it attached to the top of the shoulder they found it was realtively easy to breath and to pull oneself in. While at sea I always tow a 100 ft length of 3/8th polypropylene line. I run this over a mooring bit then onto the tiller. I stop it from pulling the tiller hard over by tucking a shock cords thru it for a few tucks then tying the shockcord to a stanchion. If someone grabbed it, it would overcome the shockcord and pull the helm hard over, stopping the boat. As this wouldn't work pulling the helm to windward while going to windward , you have to tack the line when you tack the boat. A tether short enough to stop you from hitting the water is too short to work with , and being a nuisance is less likely to be used diligently. If it is short enought o have to be detached and reattached every time you move , it's a far greater hazzard than a longer tether. I also leave s six foot line atached to my running pole sockets at the mast with a caribiner hook on the end .. When tying in reefsa I hook this to my harness. It is long enough to let me reach the deck to pick anything up . but not long enough to let me hit anything. I use every available option, not wanting to be a defeatest in the face of potentiaL danger . People have pulled themselves aboard by the logline before. A defeatest is someone who thinks "We are all going to die eventually so why bother with safety ."Duhhhh!!!! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A well designed harness system prevents you from going into the water, > because once there your odds of survival are very low. The hull speed of a > 6 foot person is about 3.25 knots. Beyond that, you make a wave that makes > it near impossible to get back aboard, that will drown you given the > slightest opportunity. Anyone that has done much water-skiing will have > experienced this, if you have held onto the rope when starting, after your > skis fell off. Have someone tow you at 6-7 knots behind a boat if there is > any doubt. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12383|12381|2007-01-04 20:25:53|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Hookah system|I think they have the only product on electric Hookahs. Some notes should never be used with out a in line tank to give you a little resurve. Gold prospecting shops and supplyers as well as E-bay sell pumps (Hooka oilless) for about $125 used,low preshure regulaters (Mouth peice)are about $125 new hose and resurve tanks are cheap so in Brents sperit build your owen belting of engen with pully to get right rpm and remove belt when not useing to save wear and tear. All now parts to build would be less then $600. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I think brent mentioned something about a hookah system awhile back. > I just found this http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/metaldetective.html > 12 volt hookah > | 12384|12311|2007-01-04 21:15:27|Gord Schnell|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Jim I sure be interested in a sketch, drawing, picture ...or what have you... of this device, as mounted. Is that possible w/o too much trouble? Thanks Gord On 4-Jan-07, at 12:25 AM, Jim Baltaxe wrote: > Hi All > > I'm a member of the local volunteer coastguard and we've been > trained never to try to get anybody on board over the stern even > though there is a wide platform there next to the engines (motors > are put into neutral as soon as we approach anyone in the water). > The reason is exactly what Gary referred to. Even if you can get > onto the ladder, any pitching will be magnified at the ends of the > boat and it is very easy to slip with disastrous consequences. I > learned this lesson the hard way when I broke at least one rib, > possibly two, getting back on board a recreational dive boat last > year. > > The gear we carry for MoB and other retrievals is a Jason's Cradle, > a large plastic grid like device that is articulated so that it can > roll up tightly in one direction but if rolled in the other > direction locks into a half-pipe shape into which the casualty can > be climb or be floated. The cradle is then lifted by tackle > attached to the outboard end and run to a central mast just aft of > our bridge. We've actually used this to retrieve a sea-kayaker > still in his boat. The cradle is mounted on pad eyes welded to the > deck of the RIB ahead of the port and starboard quarters, where the > freeboard is least and pitching is relatively moderate on our 12.5 > metre boat. We do practice with it regularly and I would suggest > anyone who rigs anything like it for their own boat do the same as > it is not as easy to use as it might seem. I have contemplated a > much more light weight version for a small launch, made from very > heavy gauge fishing net (a fragment of a commercial net found by a > friend) with a batten on one edge to ensure it hold its shape. The > tackle would have to be held out away from the boat with a > boathook, however. > > Enjoy > > Jim Baltaxe > 8 Knoll Street > Island Bay, Wellington > NEW ZEALAND > +64 (04) 934 1407 > 027 563 5018 > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > Sent: Monday, 1 January 2007 9:07 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to > recall > that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm > water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries > to kill > anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a > stern swim > ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the > slightest > bit rough. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" 40linuxgazette.net"ben@linuxgazette.-net> > To: yahoogroups.-com> > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:19PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > >> I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so > >> that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are > >> older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. > >> Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would > not be > >> easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch > >> would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet > >> person was wearing a strong harness. > >> But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can > >> climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled > >> there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would > >> be up that ladder pretty fast. > > > > Please do consider the situation in which the person overboard is > hurt, > > and _cannot_ pull themselves up - no matter what they were able > to do > > when in top condition. I've seen people try the "drop the sail in > the > > water" drill, and watched the MOB slip right out of it. > > > > One of the things I'm planning on adding to Ulysses is a fold- > down stern > > platform: two big tabs on the hull plus a couple of stainless "chafe > > points", a big stainless pipe bent (or cut and welded) into a U > shape > > with stops on the open ends, and some of that gray rot-proof > "plastic > > wood" that's sold at Home Depot and the like. If it's just a > couple of > > inches higher than the water, it's easy to roll onto even if > you're hurt > > or weak, and the person on board can help you without endangering > > themselves. The fact that it can be kicked up means you don't pay > any > > more per foot if you ever have to pull into a marina, and if it's > made > > wide enough, it can be used as a way to keep your dinghy off the > deck > > (lashed against the stern) and still have enough room to stand on. > > > >> The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to > >> join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull > yourself > >> into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. > > > > I don't know that it's a fair test, since it's partly strength and > > largely skill. It's one of the first things I taught my wife when > she > > came aboard. > > > >> I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the > >> davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be > >> really strong. > >> North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for > >> swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. > > > > Heh. You Canadians have antifreeze instead of blood. :) Me, if > the water > > temps are below 75degF or so, I sail south. > > > > On the other hand, when I was a kid in Russia, my best friend's > father > > was a "Walrus" (that was the name of the ice swimmers' club > there, if I > > recall it correctly.) We'd tromp out to the middle of the lake > with an > > ax, and Gena would chop out a hole for his dad to swim in; the > old man > > would come up jogging in his undies, dive in, and swim around for a > > while, huffing great clouds of steam. After he got out, he'd suck > down > > the half-liter bottle of vodka that he brought with him, and jog > back > > home (no drying off - that would be for sissies!) That was back > in the > > late 60s or early 70s; the old man is probably still around, > since any > > disease would be *afraid* to live in his body. :) > > > >> Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim > >> grid/steps into a future design? > > > > I think that it would be a _very_ cool addition to these boats. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * HYPERLINK > "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: > 3/01/2007 1:34 p.m. > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: > 3/01/2007 1:34 p.m. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12385|12311|2007-01-04 23:27:26|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>The British did the tests at 4 knots . With the attachement at the >>chest or at the back it was impossible to pull oneself in. With it >>attached to the top of the shoulder they found it was realtively easy >>to breath and to pull oneself in. Is there a URL or internet reference to this study? "The British" sounds vague, like a rumor. Commercial products almost always take advantage of studies to market their products. It is free advertising. There should be commercial products and patents resulting from any such study, unless the research also showed up a flaw. Why are commercial marine harnesses front attached? Likely for the same reason life-jackets are designed as they are. They automatically roll an unconscious sailor onto their back should they be knocked over-board, so they can breath. Otherwise, they would face product liability lawsuits. http://gisc.ie/content/view/156/103/lang,en/ http://www.ussailing.org/safety/H &T/harness_study.htm http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html There are many ingenious devices to rescue people that should never have gone in the water to start with. They remind me of installing parachutes on jet airliners. Well intentioned perhaps, makes people feel safer, but of little practical value. I like a short tether on jack-lines set well inboard of the stays. I can work the boat fore-and aft without unclipping, and the spring in the jack-line starts pulling me back aboard as I move outboard, minimizing shock loads. I rarely need to switch jack-lines, unless tacking, which I do from the cockpit. Having mirrored jack-lines allows two crew members to work fore and aft without interference. I use a 6 foot tether, normally doubled to 3 feet, which keeps the carbineer from dragging on the deck. In a pinch, I have the full length available. Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12386|12311|2007-01-05 03:44:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Gord, www.jasonscradle.co.uk has a video of it as well. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > > Jim > I sure be interested in a sketch, drawing, picture ...or what have > you... of this device, as mounted. > Is that possible w/o too much trouble? > Thanks > Gord > > > On 4-Jan-07, at 12:25 AM, Jim Baltaxe wrote: > > > Hi All > > > > I'm a member of the local volunteer coastguard and we've been > > trained never to try to get anybody on board over the stern even > > though there is a wide platform there next to the engines (motors > > are put into neutral as soon as we approach anyone in the water). > > The reason is exactly what Gary referred to. Even if you can get > > onto the ladder, any pitching will be magnified at the ends of the > > boat and it is very easy to slip with disastrous consequences. I > > learned this lesson the hard way when I broke at least one rib, > > possibly two, getting back on board a recreational dive boat last > > year. > > > > The gear we carry for MoB and other retrievals is a Jason's Cradle, > > a large plastic grid like device that is articulated so that it can > > roll up tightly in one direction but if rolled in the other > > direction locks into a half-pipe shape into which the casualty can > > be climb or be floated. The cradle is then lifted by tackle > > attached to the outboard end and run to a central mast just aft of > > our bridge. We've actually used this to retrieve a sea-kayaker > > still in his boat. The cradle is mounted on pad eyes welded to the > > deck of the RIB ahead of the port and starboard quarters, where the > > freeboard is least and pitching is relatively moderate on our 12.5 > > metre boat. We do practice with it regularly and I would suggest > > anyone who rigs anything like it for their own boat do the same as > > it is not as easy to use as it might seem. I have contemplated a > > much more light weight version for a small launch, made from very > > heavy gauge fishing net (a fragment of a commercial net found by a > > friend) with a batten on one edge to ensure it hold its shape. The > > tackle would have to be held out away from the boat with a > > boathook, however. > > > > Enjoy > > > > Jim Baltaxe > > 8 Knoll Street > > Island Bay, Wellington > > NEW ZEALAND > > +64 (04) 934 1407 > > 027 563 5018 > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one. > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary H. Lucas > > Sent: Monday, 1 January 2007 9:07 a.m. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to > > recall > > that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm > > water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries > > to kill > > anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a > > stern swim > > ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the > > slightest > > bit rough. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > 40linuxgazette.net"ben@...> > > To: > yahoogroups.-com> > > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:34 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:19PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > > >> I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so > > >> that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are > > >> older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. > > >> Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would > > not be > > >> easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch > > >> would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet > > >> person was wearing a strong harness. > > >> But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can > > >> climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled > > >> there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would > > >> be up that ladder pretty fast. > > > > > > Please do consider the situation in which the person overboard is > > hurt, > > > and _cannot_ pull themselves up - no matter what they were able > > to do > > > when in top condition. I've seen people try the "drop the sail in > > the > > > water" drill, and watched the MOB slip right out of it. > > > > > > One of the things I'm planning on adding to Ulysses is a fold- > > down stern > > > platform: two big tabs on the hull plus a couple of stainless "chafe > > > points", a big stainless pipe bent (or cut and welded) into a U > > shape > > > with stops on the open ends, and some of that gray rot-proof > > "plastic > > > wood" that's sold at Home Depot and the like. If it's just a > > couple of > > > inches higher than the water, it's easy to roll onto even if > > you're hurt > > > or weak, and the person on board can help you without endangering > > > themselves. The fact that it can be kicked up means you don't pay > > any > > > more per foot if you ever have to pull into a marina, and if it's > > made > > > wide enough, it can be used as a way to keep your dinghy off the > > deck > > > (lashed against the stern) and still have enough room to stand on. > > > > > >> The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to > > >> join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull > > yourself > > >> into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. > > > > > > I don't know that it's a fair test, since it's partly strength and > > > largely skill. It's one of the first things I taught my wife when > > she > > > came aboard. > > > > > >> I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the > > >> davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be > > >> really strong. > > >> North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for > > >> swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. > > > > > > Heh. You Canadians have antifreeze instead of blood. :) Me, if > > the water > > > temps are below 75degF or so, I sail south. > > > > > > On the other hand, when I was a kid in Russia, my best friend's > > father > > > was a "Walrus" (that was the name of the ice swimmers' club > > there, if I > > > recall it correctly.) We'd tromp out to the middle of the lake > > with an > > > ax, and Gena would chop out a hole for his dad to swim in; the > > old man > > > would come up jogging in his undies, dive in, and swim around for a > > > while, huffing great clouds of steam. After he got out, he'd suck > > down > > > the half-liter bottle of vodka that he brought with him, and jog > > back > > > home (no drying off - that would be for sissies!) That was back > > in the > > > late 60s or early 70s; the old man is probably still around, > > since any > > > disease would be *afraid* to live in his body. :) > > > > > >> Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim > > >> grid/steps into a future design? > > > > > > I think that it would be a _very_ cool addition to these boats. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * HYPERLINK > > "http://LinuxGazette.NET"http://LinuxGazette-.NET * > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: > > 3/01/2007 1:34 p.m. > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: > > 3/01/2007 1:34 p.m. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12387|12311|2007-01-05 13:20:01|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>A tether short enough to stop you from hitting the water is too short >>to work with , and being a nuisance is less likely to be used >>diligently. From Practical-Sailor.com "The primary purpose of the safety harness tether, the vital link between you and the boat, is to keep the wearer aboard, not dragging alongside or hydroplaning astern." http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html On most boats, jack-lines run fore and aft, well inboard with a tether sufficient to reach the lifelines but not much further, will serve this purpose. I see no point in labeling people "defeatist" or anything else. Derogatory labels do nothing to advance our knowledge. Like racism, name calling is a form of intolerance that hides the truth. There are very simple techniques that ensure everyone stays safe aboard a boat. Once they are in the water, you have a huge problem, regardless of what equipment you have aboard. If your survival relies on catching a line trailing astern, in the dead of night, in a seaway, after you have been pitched off the boat, your survival is unlikely. Your very first question will be - assuming you are conscious - in which direction do I swim to catch the line? With the vessel making leeway and you disoriented in the dark, having been underwater, with no clear view of the boat because of waves - which way are you going to swim? Maybe the line is to windward, maybe to leeward. With the boat making leeway, can you be sure? Maybe you got turned backwards after you hit the water. Maybe the line is behind you. Maybe in front. Maybe to the side. Which side? You have only a very small angle in which you can swim to reach the line. As you have read this, it is now too late. With a 100 foot line, and a boat at 6 knots, you had less than 10 seconds, best case. How far can you swim in 10 seconds, with clothing? After just a few seconds, you can never catch it swimming, even if it is right in front of you. And if you do catch it, can you hang on? A wet 3/8 poly line at 6 knots is almost impossible to hold. I do not trust to luck aboard a boat. I cruised the better part of 20 years with my wife and two small children aboard. The children grew up on the boat, one moved aboard at 6 months, the other the day she was born. You cannot cruise offshore with children with any sort of half-baked approach to safety and expect to return with them. In addition to a good harness system, strong nets on the lifelines are great, not just for children, but for sail handling, and to keep dropped gear aboard. Also, they catch fish. The fish in the following picture was caught by our deck nets while out sailing, not while fishing: http://www.origamimagic.com/sale/pic8.jpg Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12388|12311|2007-01-05 13:21:08|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 09:49:46PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > You are absolutely right about the mask and plugs. The sinus infection > I obtained swimming in the ocean off Barbados almost killed me. The > worst case the Canadian specialist said he had ever seen. I asked him > what would have happened if I had stayed in Barbados longer and he > said an autopsy. Yow. I've had it pretty bad, but never quite that bad - the worst it ever got to (which was about two years ago) was that my sinus drainage got plugged up, and the pain from the pressure was so bad that I felt like I was going blind. A local Veterans Aministration doctor took pity on me (since, for walk-in service, I'm supposed to go to Gainesville, 40 miles away...) and prescribed Afrin - which took care of the problem in about 15 seconds. > The only cure was 10 days in the hospital in Vancouver, a hole drilled > thru my eyebrow and a flushing saline/antibiotic drip direct into the > sinus. Even then it was years before I was really fixed. That eyebrow > plumbing job might be the fix for u Ben if it never cures. I had a > rubber tube in my eyebrow for 10 days but it sure was the cure in the end. Thanks, Mickey; I've never heard of this before, but it definitely sounds like an option if it doesn't go away. Right now, it's down to a very manageable level, and I suspect that it's going to respond to treatment pretty well - they've laid out a course, possibly (but not likely) including some mild surgery, that sounds pretty definitive. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12389|12311|2007-01-05 13:22:16|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 11:49:39AM -0800, ge@... wrote: > >>Greg, next time I'm there, I'll see if I can get all the specifics on > >>paper (or better yet, in electronic form) and forward them to you. > > Thanks Ben, that would be great. Doctors in Canada typically don't have > time to do research for exceptional problems, unless it is life threatening. > If you are simply miserable, it falls to the patient. I have found that if > you can bring them treatment options, with credentials like Walter Reed, > they will follow up. Otherwise, they don't have enough hours in the day. > Thanks again, Greg I'll keep this in my inbox as a reminder until I have something for you, Greg. In fact, since several folks have mentioned it, I'll pump the doc for generalized info on the problem - info sources, references, etc. - and post it. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12390|12290|2007-01-05 14:03:36|David A. Frantz|Re: biodiesel|Shane & group; I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would seem possible. Dave SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > treat!) > > cheers, > SR > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > | 12391|12311|2007-01-05 14:10:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|* The only cure was 10 days in the hospital in Vancouver, a hole drilled > thru my eyebrow and a flushing saline/antibiotic drip direct into the > sinus. Even then it was years before I was really fixed. That eyebrow > plumbing job might be the fix for u Ben if it never cures. I had a > rubber tube in my eyebrow for 10 days but it sure was the cure in the end. >>Thanks, Mickey; I've never heard of this before, but it definitely >>sounds like an option if it doesn't go away. Right now, it's down to a I missed the original posting on this - it didn't get thru my spam filters. Exactly what happened to me. They drilled a hole through my eyebrow, though they didn't install the tube. The technique is called FESS. Later, another specialist said that they had made a mistake in not installing the tube, which made recovery a lot more difficult. Surgeons don't like going in a second time after someone else has operated, and the first surgeon never wants to admit to missing something. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12392|12290|2007-01-05 15:18:25|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: biodiesel|On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 01:54:24PM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > Shane & group; > > I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs > that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? > > There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. > First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much > light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a > tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would > seem possible. I haven't looked at them, but even in the best-case scenario - say, a 20000mcd LED (and I've never seen a UV LED at that rating, only the visible spectrum ones) - you've only got the equivalent of a ~12W incandescent. Given the low penetrating capability of that low degree of illumination, the power necessary to couple the energy into the little buggers, and the depth of an average tank, I suspect that it's not a practicable solution. It certainly would be very, *very* nice to have, say, a solid "illuminating plate" covering the entire bottom of a diesel tank - that being where the critters grow - putting out a couple of KW of UV. I think that _theoretically_ you have a brilliant idea; unfortunately, I can't see a reasonable way of making that happen, at least not on a sailboat energy budget. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12393|12344|2007-01-05 15:29:56|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Forward looking sonar|On Thu, Jan 04, 2007 at 07:45:21PM -0000, John Foster wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > When I lost my first boat on a Fijian Coral reef , it cost me less to > > replace her than it would have cost to insure her for the time I had > > been cruising .Keep your boat cheap ,strong and strictly functional > > and you'll have far more stress free and enjoyable cruising. > > SNIP > > Since the chart datums in cruising areas are notorious for misleading > GPS users, you might consider forward looking sonar to avaoid reefs, > find opening in reefs, find openings into harbors and so on. > > Take a look at the iScan180 from Interphase-Tech > > > > I bought forward looking sonar before any other piece of gear. I've looked at several of those, and they're very impressive - I agree that they can definitely make a huge difference in approaching land when the bottom contour is unknown. My only problem with them is that they're not "user-maintainable", and at over $2200 per unit, carrying a second one as a spare is just a bit too expensive for most of us. Perhaps in another five years, when the manufacturers stop insisting that we have to pay for their research and start charging something resembling commodity prices, it'll become useful to the average sailor. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12394|12320|2007-01-05 15:30:32|David A. Frantz|Re: Strong Box/Boat Safe/Lock Box/Gun Locker|If a person can find the time to do so, it would seem to me that a couple of such boxes might be of use. The time capsule idea is a different story and even there I can see where it might be interesting to seal in some history. It does make you wonder about the life span of the average boat and where that time capsule might be found. Dave mickeyolaf wrote: > > Whatever u want to call it how many of u have welded in a secure > lockable box to hold valuables, papers, $,etc? > I've put in a hidden strong box made of 3/16 plate and will have > covered pad locks so they can't be cut off. It's big enough for most > valuables, papers, cameras, etc. It will also hold my stainless fold > down rifle. And it is not easily seen even when looking at it. Sort of > the false bottom idea. > When we are boating we walk and walk and walk and are away from the > boat for long days. Not wanting to carry our valuables with us I > designed a safe into this boat. Those of u still in frame and haven't > closed up or used all of your spaces should consider it. Ours will be > vented and I may put an electric "golden rod" in it if there is any sweat. > > The strong box could also work as a time capsule.If u have a really > good idea re how to finance a boat you could write it down and lock it > up in the box for ten years which is about when Alex may allow you to > post it. > > | 12395|12290|2007-01-05 15:39:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: biodiesel|I've found that a bit of methyl or isopropyl added to the tank with each fill eliminates the growth problem in diesel. Ethyl would probably work as well, though maybe harder on rubber. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12396|12311|2007-01-05 17:55:59|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|With a jack line that would mean about a one metre long tether . Try doing anything but crawling along the deck with that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>A tether short enough to stop you from hitting the water is too short > >>to work with , and being a nuisance is less likely to be used > >>diligently. > > From Practical-Sailor.com > > "The primary purpose of the safety harness tether, the vital link between > you and the boat, is to keep the wearer aboard, not dragging alongside or > hydroplaning astern." > > > http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html > > > > On most boats, jack-lines run fore and aft, well inboard with a tether > sufficient to reach the lifelines but not much further, will serve this > purpose. > > > > I see no point in labeling people "defeatist" or anything else. Derogatory > labels do nothing to advance our knowledge. Like racism, name calling is a > form of intolerance that hides the truth. > > > > There are very simple techniques that ensure everyone stays safe aboard a > boat. Once they are in the water, you have a huge problem, regardless of > what equipment you have aboard. If your survival relies on catching a line > trailing astern, in the dead of night, in a seaway, after you have been > pitched off the boat, your survival is unlikely. > > > > Your very first question will be - assuming you are conscious - in which > direction do I swim to catch the line? With the vessel making leeway and > you disoriented in the dark, having been underwater, with no clear view of > the boat because of waves - which way are you going to swim? > > > > Maybe the line is to windward, maybe to leeward. With the boat making > leeway, can you be sure? Maybe you got turned backwards after you hit the > water. Maybe the line is behind you. Maybe in front. Maybe to the side. > Which side? You have only a very small angle in which you can swim to reach > the line. > > > > As you have read this, it is now too late. With a 100 foot line, and a boat > at 6 knots, you had less than 10 seconds, best case. How far can you swim > in 10 seconds, with clothing? After just a few seconds, you can never catch > it swimming, even if it is right in front of you. And if you do catch it, > can you hang on? A wet 3/8 poly line at 6 knots is almost impossible to > hold. > > > > I do not trust to luck aboard a boat. I cruised the better part of 20 years > with my wife and two small children aboard. The children grew up on the > boat, one moved aboard at 6 months, the other the day she was born. You > cannot cruise offshore with children with any sort of half-baked approach to > safety and expect to return with them. > > > > In addition to a good harness system, strong nets on the lifelines are > great, not just for children, but for sail handling, and to keep dropped > gear aboard. Also, they catch fish. The fish in the following picture was > caught by our deck nets while out sailing, not while fishing: > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/sale/pic8.jpg > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12397|12320|2007-01-05 17:59:34|brentswain38|Re: Strong Box/Boat Safe/Lock Box/Gun Locker|The tops of twin keels work well if they are not used for fuel tanks. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David A. Frantz" wrote: > > If a person can find the time to do so, it would seem to me that a > couple of such boxes might be of use. > > The time capsule idea is a different story and even there I can see > where it might be interesting to seal in some history. It does make > you wonder about the life span of the average boat and where that time > capsule might be found. > > Dave > > > mickeyolaf wrote: > > > > Whatever u want to call it how many of u have welded in a secure > > lockable box to hold valuables, papers, $,etc? > > I've put in a hidden strong box made of 3/16 plate and will have > > covered pad locks so they can't be cut off. It's big enough for most > > valuables, papers, cameras, etc. It will also hold my stainless fold > > down rifle. And it is not easily seen even when looking at it. Sort of > > the false bottom idea. > > When we are boating we walk and walk and walk and are away from the > > boat for long days. Not wanting to carry our valuables with us I > > designed a safe into this boat. Those of u still in frame and haven't > > closed up or used all of your spaces should consider it. Ours will be > > vented and I may put an electric "golden rod" in it if there is any sweat. > > > > The strong box could also work as a time capsule.If u have a really > > good idea re how to finance a boat you could write it down and lock it > > up in the box for ten years which is about when Alex may allow you to > > post it. > > > > > | 12398|12311|2007-01-05 18:02:34|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I read of it in a British yachting magazine , possibly Practical boat Owner , but I'm not exactly sure . I should have made a copy. I will if I find it again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>The British did the tests at 4 knots . With the attachement at the > >>chest or at the back it was impossible to pull oneself in. With it > >>attached to the top of the shoulder they found it was realtively easy > >>to breath and to pull oneself in. > > > > Is there a URL or internet reference to this study? "The British" sounds > vague, like a rumor. > > Commercial products almost always take advantage of studies to market their > products. It is free advertising. There should be commercial products and > patents resulting from any such study, unless the research also showed up a > flaw. > > Why are commercial marine harnesses front attached? Likely for the same > reason life-jackets are designed as they are. They automatically roll an > unconscious sailor onto their back should they be knocked over-board, so > they can breath. Otherwise, they would face product liability lawsuits. > > http://gisc.ie/content/view/156/103/lang,en/ > > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/H > &T/harness_study.htm > > http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html > > There are many ingenious devices to rescue people that should never have > gone in the water to start with. They remind me of installing parachutes on > jet airliners. Well intentioned perhaps, makes people feel safer, but of > little practical value. > > I like a short tether on jack-lines set well inboard of the stays. I can > work the boat fore-and aft without unclipping, and the spring in the > jack-line starts pulling me back aboard as I move outboard, minimizing shock > loads. I rarely need to switch jack-lines, unless tacking, which I do from > the cockpit. Having mirrored jack-lines allows two crew members to work > fore and aft without interference. I use a 6 foot tether, normally doubled > to 3 feet, which keeps the carbineer from dragging on the deck. In a pinch, > I have the full length available. > > Greg > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12399|12381|2007-01-05 18:26:16|brentswain38|Re: Hookah system|I did a bit of hookah diving last summer.What a great way to dive. No great hunk of metal on my back , no worries about fills or hydro tests. I can pull myself up whenever I want . I started inflating the huge ring which came with the unit. It took an hour or so to assemble the works. While diving I began to think "What the hell did I do all that for?" Next time I simply threw the works in my dinghy and went diving. I left the float , which was rather bulky, ashore.. I can carry spare speargun, hot chocolate in a thermos, fish, etc in the dinghy and climb into it for the trip home anytime. The Hookah I bought was a Brownies third lung , oiless compressor powered by a 3.5 hp briggs engine. the intake is on apole abouty a meter above the unit for fresh air.It's a great unit. While they are expensive I got a great deal on it for $500. It had been rarely used. The fuel tank was rusted so I copied it in stainless, as it will spend a lot of time empty aboard.I've made a pad to mount it next to my main engine so I can run it off that for hull or anchor work. Commercial divers here tell me that you get a certain reserve from air in the hoses. I have used my ss shower tank( a pop container) to give me a bit more reserve to get to the surface. It will support two divers to 70 feet and one to 120 as long as they are taking it real easy, Doing nothing strenuous . I plan to limit the depth to 35 feet in the tropics by tying off the hoses at that length. In BC in the summer the water only starts to clear at 35 feet. I have built a pressure proof watch container so I can use a cheaper watch than a dive watch to keep track of my time. I've lowered it to 240 feet on my fishing line with no problem. Midland tools sells an oiless compressor for $49 CDN and a generator which will probably run it for $169CDN. After getting the bill for hydro testing ing my last tank I believe that's the last time I'll ever bother hydro testing a scuba tank.Next time they go ashore and stay there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I think brent mentioned something about a hookah system awhile back. > I just found this http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/metaldetective.html > 12 volt hookah > | 12400|12344|2007-01-05 18:32:55|brentswain38|Re: Forward looking sonar|Mounting a standard cheapie sonar with the transducer facing foreward may be a good comprimise. I wouldn't go south again without a spare depthsounder and this may be another use for it.I'll try it this summer. Anoher use would be a spare to carry in the dinghy to scout out an area or entrance in the dinghy before going in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 04, 2007 at 07:45:21PM -0000, John Foster wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > When I lost my first boat on a Fijian Coral reef , it cost me less to > > > replace her than it would have cost to insure her for the time I had > > > been cruising .Keep your boat cheap ,strong and strictly functional > > > and you'll have far more stress free and enjoyable cruising. > > > > SNIP > > > > Since the chart datums in cruising areas are notorious for misleading > > GPS users, you might consider forward looking sonar to avaoid reefs, > > find opening in reefs, find openings into harbors and so on. > > > > Take a look at the iScan180 from Interphase-Tech > > > > > > > > I bought forward looking sonar before any other piece of gear. > > I've looked at several of those, and they're very impressive - I agree > that they can definitely make a huge difference in approaching land when > the bottom contour is unknown. My only problem with them is that they're > not "user-maintainable", and at over $2200 per unit, carrying a second > one as a spare is just a bit too expensive for most of us. Perhaps in > another five years, when the manufacturers stop insisting that we have > to pay for their research and start charging something resembling > commodity prices, it'll become useful to the average sailor. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12401|12311|2007-01-05 18:35:29|Michael Casling|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Agreed. An example is post number 12334. Interesting topic. I think I will stay with the swim grid and ladder at the stern and add a net for side launch. I generally use webbing as a jack line and a two tethers 4 and 5 feet long. New plan is to add a line to disconnect the auto pilot or tiller. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I see no point in labeling people "defeatist" or anything else. Derogatory > labels do nothing to advance our knowledge. Like racism, name calling is a > form of intolerance that hides the truth. > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12402|12290|2007-01-05 18:36:57|jim dorey|Re: biodiesel|Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > I haven't looked at them, but even in the best-case scenario - say, a > 20000mcd LED (and I've never seen a UV LED at that rating, only the > visible spectrum ones) - you've only got the equivalent of a ~12W > incandescent. Given the low penetrating capability of that low degree of > illumination, the power necessary to couple the energy into the little > buggers, and the depth of an average tank, I suspect that it's not a > practicable solution. > > It certainly would be very, *very* nice to have, say, a solid > "illuminating plate" covering the entire bottom of a diesel tank - that > being where the critters grow - putting out a couple of KW of UV. I > think that _theoretically_ you have a brilliant idea; unfortunately, I > can't see a reasonable way of making that happen, at least not on a > sailboat energy budget. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * http://www.casecooler.com/ducocalikit13.html i haven't seen mention of these kinda things, they work from 12v, and they're quite cheap. if a few tubes will only work a little then a bunch would work enough to offset the cost of a 120v inverter to run a big single tube. suddenly i have a craving for banana cream pie. you can find them there kinda tubes anywhere that computer mod supplies are....now i'm thinking that the tubes mounted to fans would work a treat, if you could find a fan that wasn't dissolved by the biodiesel(constant stir-n-cure).| 12403|12344|2007-01-05 18:42:37|Michael Casling|Re: Forward looking sonar|The new cheap units have quite a bit of power compared to earlier models. Might work with a narrow angle transducer set in epoxy. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Mounting a standard cheapie sonar with the transducer facing foreward > may be a good comprimise. I wouldn't go south again without a spare > depthsounder and this may be another use for it.I'll try it this > summer. Anoher use would be a spare to carry in the dinghy to scout > out an area or entrance in the dinghy before going in. > Brent | 12404|12290|2007-01-05 19:07:39|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: biodiesel|On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 07:29:26PM -0400, jim dorey wrote: > Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > > > I haven't looked at them, but even in the best-case scenario - say, a > > 20000mcd LED (and I've never seen a UV LED at that rating, only the > > visible spectrum ones) - you've only got the equivalent of a ~12W > > incandescent. Given the low penetrating capability of that low degree of > > illumination, the power necessary to couple the energy into the little > > buggers, and the depth of an average tank, I suspect that it's not a > > practicable solution. > > > > It certainly would be very, *very* nice to have, say, a solid > > "illuminating plate" covering the entire bottom of a diesel tank - that > > being where the critters grow - putting out a couple of KW of UV. I > > think that _theoretically_ you have a brilliant idea; unfortunately, I > > can't see a reasonable way of making that happen, at least not on a > > sailboat energy budget. > > http://www.casecooler.com/ducocalikit13.html i haven't seen mention of these kinda things, they > work from 12v, and they're quite cheap. if a few tubes will only work a little then a bunch > would work enough to offset the cost of a 120v inverter to run a big single tube. The problem isn't the inverter - it's making the juice. > suddenly i > have a craving for banana cream pie. Heh. Do you bake those under UV lights, or what? > you can find them there kinda tubes anywhere that > computer mod supplies are....now i'm thinking that the tubes mounted to fans would work a > treat, if you could find a fan that wasn't dissolved by the biodiesel(constant stir-n-cure). Well, you could set it up (assuming, again, that you had the power for it) like these guys did: http://www.todayshealthyhome.com/water_filters/ultraviolet.htm Although nobody seems to be doing this for fuel, there are lots of folks filtering water and air. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12405|12311|2007-01-05 19:25:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Works well for me. Practical sailor agrees. A safety system the lets you go into the water is a poor system. Near the bow, a short tether is great. You can stand on a pitching deck in heavy weather, and the tether pulls you down onto the deck, rather than letting you get pitched overboard. The rest of the time, I often lean against the tether and jackline when working on deck. It is like having a third leg to help you balance. Leave the jack-lines with some slack, so they follow the curve of the gunwales, and give you lots of room to work amidships around the mast. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:51 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses With a jack line that would mean about a one metre long tether . Try doing anything but crawling along the deck with that. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>A tether short enough to stop you from hitting the water is too short > >>to work with , and being a nuisance is less likely to be used > >>diligently. > > From Practical-Sailor.com > > "The primary purpose of the safety harness tether, the vital link between > you and the boat, is to keep the wearer aboard, not dragging alongside or > hydroplaning astern." > > l-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html> > http://www.practica l-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html > > > > On most boats, jack-lines run fore and aft, well inboard with a tether > sufficient to reach the lifelines but not much further, will serve this > purpose. > > > > I see no point in labeling people "defeatist" or anything else. Derogatory > labels do nothing to advance our knowledge. Like racism, name calling is a > form of intolerance that hides the truth. > > > > There are very simple techniques that ensure everyone stays safe aboard a > boat. Once they are in the water, you have a huge problem, regardless of > what equipment you have aboard. If your survival relies on catching a line > trailing astern, in the dead of night, in a seaway, after you have been > pitched off the boat, your survival is unlikely. > > > > Your very first question will be - assuming you are conscious - in which > direction do I swim to catch the line? With the vessel making leeway and > you disoriented in the dark, having been underwater, with no clear view of > the boat because of waves - which way are you going to swim? > > > > Maybe the line is to windward, maybe to leeward. With the boat making > leeway, can you be sure? Maybe you got turned backwards after you hit the > water. Maybe the line is behind you. Maybe in front. Maybe to the side. > Which side? You have only a very small angle in which you can swim to reach > the line. > > > > As you have read this, it is now too late. With a 100 foot line, and a boat > at 6 knots, you had less than 10 seconds, best case. How far can you swim > in 10 seconds, with clothing? After just a few seconds, you can never catch > it swimming, even if it is right in front of you. And if you do catch it, > can you hang on? A wet 3/8 poly line at 6 knots is almost impossible to > hold. > > > > I do not trust to luck aboard a boat. I cruised the better part of 20 years > with my wife and two small children aboard. The children grew up on the > boat, one moved aboard at 6 months, the other the day she was born. You > cannot cruise offshore with children with any sort of half-baked approach to > safety and expect to return with them. > > > > In addition to a good harness system, strong nets on the lifelines are > great, not just for children, but for sail handling, and to keep dropped > gear aboard. Also, they catch fish. The fish in the following picture was > caught by our deck nets while out sailing, not while fishing: > > > > http://www.origamim agic.com/sale/pic8.jpg > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12406|12311|2007-01-05 19:48:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Stories have a way of getting retold in the telling. The only report that I found on Google that referenced towing people at 4 knots was the one below, the 1998 study funded by the Cruising Club of America. It is too co-incidental for there to be a second report. Likely you read the results in a British magazine. Their conclusions don't appear to match yours. Here is one quote: "The sailing harnesses did a good job of keeping the wearer's head above water, while the rock climbing and industrial harnesses did not show this tendency." All harnesses had the same result for Reboarding: "Impossible without aid" 4 knots. Just slightly above the hull speed of a human being and you are stuck. Most boats cruise faster than this, significantly above human hull speed. We all know what hull speed means for a sail boat. The boat digs a hole in the water, and it takes power to get out of it. Power that we as human beings don't have physically. As the Pardey's say: "if you fall in, you're dead." http://www.ussailing.org/safety/H&T/appendixii.htm Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 2:49 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses I read of it in a British yachting magazine , possibly Practical boat Owner , but I'm not exactly sure . I should have made a copy. I will if I find it again. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>The British did the tests at 4 knots . With the attachement at the > >>chest or at the back it was impossible to pull oneself in. With it > >>attached to the top of the shoulder they found it was realtively easy > >>to breath and to pull oneself in. > > > > Is there a URL or internet reference to this study? "The British" sounds > vague, like a rumor. > > Commercial products almost always take advantage of studies to market their > products. It is free advertising. There should be commercial products and > patents resulting from any such study, unless the research also showed up a > flaw. > > Why are commercial marine harnesses front attached? Likely for the same > reason life-jackets are designed as they are. They automatically roll an > unconscious sailor onto their back should they be knocked over-board, so > they can breath. Otherwise, they would face product liability lawsuits. > > http://gisc. ie/content/view/156/103/lang,en/ > > http://www.ussailin g.org/safety/H > g.org/safety/H&T/harness_study.htm> &T/harness_study.htm > > http://www.practica l-sailor.com/issues/33_1/features/5374-1.html > > There are many ingenious devices to rescue people that should never have > gone in the water to start with. They remind me of installing parachutes on > jet airliners. Well intentioned perhaps, makes people feel safer, but of > little practical value. > > I like a short tether on jack-lines set well inboard of the stays. I can > work the boat fore-and aft without unclipping, and the spring in the > jack-line starts pulling me back aboard as I move outboard, minimizing shock > loads. I rarely need to switch jack-lines, unless tacking, which I do from > the cockpit. Having mirrored jack-lines allows two crew members to work > fore and aft without interference. I use a 6 foot tether, normally doubled > to 3 feet, which keeps the carbineer from dragging on the deck. In a pinch, > I have the full length available. > > Greg > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12407|12311|2007-01-05 20:53:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I've found over the years you need a fairly simple approach while cruising. I spent years cruising with an all girl crew in some of the wildest places on earth. Think for a minute what that means. Sure as shooting, no policeman is going to show up to help, except to help himself. I always try diplomacy first. Someone takes a poke at you - they are telling you that the time for diplomacy is over. Either you have their balls for breakfast or they will have yours. Kid gloves work well when cruising, so long as you line them with brass knuckles. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Casling Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 3:35 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Agreed. An example is post number 12334. Interesting topic. I think I will stay with the swim grid and ladder at the stern and add a net for side launch. I generally use webbing as a jack line and a two tethers 4 and 5 feet long. New plan is to add a line to disconnect the auto pilot or tiller. Michael --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I see no point in labeling people "defeatist" or anything else. Derogatory > labels do nothing to advance our knowledge. Like racism, name calling is a > form of intolerance that hides the truth. > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12408|12290|2007-01-05 20:58:56|jim dorey|Re: biodiesel|Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > > http://www.casecooler.com/ducocalikit13.html > i haven't seen mention of > these kinda things, they > > work from 12v, and they're quite cheap. if a few tubes will only work > a little then a bunch > > would work enough to offset the cost of a 120v inverter to run a big > single tube. > > The problem isn't the inverter - it's making the juice. yeh, but the 12v uv tubes definitely would use less power than the led's, i think, but there's a lot less wiring. > > suddenly i > > have a craving for banana cream pie. > > Heh. Do you bake those under UV lights, or what? instant banana pudding(not too bad), spray whipped topping(check the ingredients, ew), prebaked graham cracker crust(grease bomb), no cooking needed, but if i'm going to the trouble of making instant pudding it's going into a trifle. > > you can find them there kinda tubes anywhere that > > computer mod supplies are....now i'm thinking that the tubes mounted > to fans would work a > > treat, if you could find a fan that wasn't dissolved by the > biodiesel(constant stir-n-cure). > > Well, you could set it up (assuming, again, that you had the power for > it) like these guys did: if you have an engine it's not that big a deal to bleed off a little power to a second battery that's sized for a few days duty with a tiny solar panel on the side of the mast(dare you to say that out loud in one breath). on a sailboat a pendulum based clock winder, connected to a mini generator, could give enough to....nah, silly idea. http://www.otherpower.com/toymill.html building one of these tiny windmills on the mast can do the job. > http://www.todayshealthyhome.com/water_filters/ultraviolet.htm > > > Although nobody seems to be doing this for fuel, there are lots of folks > filtering water and air. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET > * | 12409|12290|2007-01-05 21:40:48|Wesley Cox|Re: biodiesel|One thing to consider, *I believe*, is that LEDs aren't as grossly more efficient than incandescent as the white-ish ones appear to the human eye. Two flashlights, LED and incandescent, that have the same apparent illumination intensity have a 5-10 fold difference in energy consumption. The difference in efficiency when measuring actual light energy isn't as great. ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; David A. Frantz Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel Shane & group; I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would seem possible. Dave SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > treat!) > > cheers, > SR > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12410|12290|2007-01-06 00:45:38|David A. Frantz|Re: biodiesel|True; but the thought here is that such LEDs would not run hot enough to cause a concern in a tank as far as an ignition source goes. Much of that excess energy in a UV bulb goes to waste as heat. While you would certainly want to use a window of some sort, you would not need fancy cooling hardware that an incandescent bulb might cause. As others have indicated; the issue comes down to how much energy is needed and can you get it to where it is needed. That is something I can't answer with this particular bug. Continuous exposure to UV though can be nasty, not only to life forms but many materials. Such an arrangement would likely ruin a plastic tank for example. dave Wesley Cox wrote: > > One thing to consider, *I believe*, is that LEDs aren't as grossly > more efficient than incandescent as the white-ish ones appear to the > human eye. Two flashlights, LED and incandescent, that have the same > apparent illumination intensity have a 5-10 fold difference in energy > consumption. The difference in efficiency when measuring actual light > energy isn't as great. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David A. Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ; David A. Frantz > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > Shane & group; > > I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs > that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? > > There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. > First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much > light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a > tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would > seem possible. > > Dave > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > > treat!) > > > > cheers, > > SR > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12411|12290|2007-01-06 01:07:48|Aaron Williams|Re: biodiesel|What about an ozone generator like they use in hot tubs? "David A. Frantz" wrote: True; but the thought here is that such LEDs would not run hot enough to cause a concern in a tank as far as an ignition source goes. Much of that excess energy in a UV bulb goes to waste as heat. While you would certainly want to use a window of some sort, you would not need fancy cooling hardware that an incandescent bulb might cause. As others have indicated; the issue comes down to how much energy is needed and can you get it to where it is needed. That is something I can't answer with this particular bug. Continuous exposure to UV though can be nasty, not only to life forms but many materials. Such an arrangement would likely ruin a plastic tank for example. dave Wesley Cox wrote: > > One thing to consider, *I believe*, is that LEDs aren't as grossly > more efficient than incandescent as the white-ish ones appear to the > human eye. Two flashlights, LED and incandescent, that have the same > apparent illumination intensity have a 5-10 fold difference in energy > consumption. The difference in efficiency when measuring actual light > energy isn't as great. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David A. Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ; David A. Frantz > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > Shane & group; > > I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs > that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? > > There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. > First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much > light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a > tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would > seem possible. > > Dave > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > > treat!) > > > > cheers, > > SR > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12412|12290|2007-01-06 01:31:46|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: biodiesel|They only work through direct contact with the ozone and have high power consumtion. They work poorly in a hot tub and worse if at all in this situation. Dealers that don't know you will sell you one but dealers that do know you will tell you they are a wast of money. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > What about an ozone generator like they use in hot tubs? | 12413|12290|2007-01-06 01:46:06|Peter Muth|Re: biodiesel|Most modern UV anti-microbial bulbs are gas filled, and do not contain an incandescent filament. They are very efficient (though I have not looked up their comparable efficiency to an LED). They also kill the microbes very quickly. It would not be necessary to run the bulb constantly. Experimentation with regard to the wavelength of the light and the absorption spectra of the fuel may be needed, to make sure that the light is not absorbed too quickly by the fuel, (and never reaches all parts of the tank.) A UV bulb will not kill bacteria in the fuel lines, and as mentioned earlier, plastic tank parts would need protection. Using ozone would likely kill the organisms. I don't know however if the ozone ratio needed to kill the organisms would be enough to cause any noticeable fuel storage problems. (The ozone would increase the fuel's autooxidation, and reduce the storage life of the fuel.) Also in a storage situation, depending on the *rate* at which the ozone oxidizes the fuel, it may be necessary to cycle fuel through the fuel lines, so that as the ozone oxidizes the fuel, the ozone does not become depleted in the fuel system components that are away from the ozone generator (having been absorbed by the fuel in those areas.) Peter Aaron Williams wrote: > > What about an ozone generator like they use in hot tubs? > > "David A. Frantz" > wrote: True; but the thought > here is that such LEDs would not run hot enough to > cause a concern in a tank as far as an ignition source goes. Much of > that excess energy in a UV bulb goes to waste as heat. While you > would certainly want to use a window of some sort, you would not need > fancy cooling hardware that an incandescent bulb might cause. > > As others have indicated; the issue comes down to how much energy is > needed and can you get it to where it is needed. That is something I > can't answer with this particular bug. Continuous exposure to UV > though can be nasty, not only to life forms but many materials. Such > an arrangement would likely ruin a plastic tank for example. > > dave > > Wesley Cox wrote: > > > > One thing to consider, *I believe*, is that LEDs aren't as grossly > > more efficient than incandescent as the white-ish ones appear to the > > human eye. Two flashlights, LED and incandescent, that have the same > > apparent illumination intensity have a 5-10 fold difference in energy > > consumption. The difference in efficiency when measuring actual light > > energy isn't as great. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David A. Frantz > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > ; David A. Frantz > > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > > > Shane & group; > > > > I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs > > that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? > > > > There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. > > First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much > > light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a > > tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would > > seem possible. > > > > Dave > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > > > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > > > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > > > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > > > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > > > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > > > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > > > > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > > > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > > > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > > > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > > > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > > > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > > > treat!) > > > > > > cheers, > > > SR > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12414|12336|2007-01-06 09:50:55|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Mast and rigging|Happy new year everybody 1. Are HT bolts necessarily a good idea.When I had a small engineering business we tended to use ordinary steel studding for clamping purposes partly because a)it was cheap,but mainly b)because the threads stretched or otherwise visibly wore out,so you binned it and cut another piece before it developed the sort of catastrophic failure you can get with HT studding 2.Has anyone ever tried a tripod or quad mast rather than a single pole.My idea was a 2 part mast for barge yacht purposes,so that the bottom part would be a tripod,and the top part could drop down inside it to minimise the space taken up by the mast when folded down for passing bridges cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 12415|12290|2007-01-06 10:25:42|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: biodiesel|On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 12:44:39AM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > True; but the thought here is that such LEDs would not run hot enough to > cause a concern in a tank as far as an ignition source goes. Much of > that excess energy in a UV bulb goes to waste as heat. While you > would certainly want to use a window of some sort, you would not need > fancy cooling hardware that an incandescent bulb might cause. > > As others have indicated; the issue comes down to how much energy is > needed and can you get it to where it is needed. That is something I > can't answer with this particular bug. Continuous exposure to UV > though can be nasty, not only to life forms but many materials. Such > an arrangement would likely ruin a plastic tank for example. Westinghouse did a study on germicidal lights a while back. Blue-green algae, for example, require 420,000 microwatt-seconds per sq. cm. to kill. See, e.g., 'http://www.todayshealthyhome.com/germicidal.htm'. Also note that regular (coated) glass will not pass UV, which means you'd need specialized glass for that window. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12416|12290|2007-01-06 10:30:48|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: biodiesel|On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 12:42:48AM -0600, Peter Muth wrote: > Most modern UV anti-microbial bulbs are gas filled, and do not contain > an incandescent filament. They are very efficient (though I have not > looked up their comparable efficiency to an LED). They also kill the > microbes very quickly. It would not be necessary to run the bulb > constantly. > > Experimentation with regard to the wavelength of the light and the > absorption spectra of the fuel may be needed, to make sure that the > light is not absorbed too quickly by the fuel, (and never reaches all > parts of the tank.) > > A UV bulb will not kill bacteria in the fuel lines, and as mentioned > earlier, plastic tank parts would need protection. > > Using ozone would likely kill the organisms. I don't know however if the > ozone ratio needed to kill the organisms would be enough to cause any > noticeable fuel storage problems. (The ozone would increase the fuel's > autooxidation, and reduce the storage life of the fuel.) Also in a > storage situation, depending on the *rate* at which the ozone oxidizes > the fuel, it may be necessary to cycle fuel through the fuel lines, so > that as the ozone oxidizes the fuel, the ozone does not become depleted > in the fuel system components that are away from the ozone generator > (having been absorbed by the fuel in those areas.) Since the bugs usually live and breed in the water at the bottom of the tank, I wonder if it would make more sense (and be easier) to just rig a tap at the bottom and set up a long-delay timer (let's say five minutes per week) on a fuel pump that goes through a water separator/filter and back to the top of the tank? Seems like that would have lots of benefits besides just getting rid of algae. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12417|12311|2007-01-06 14:32:16|john kupris|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hi Ben, a friend's Sinus was cured at MAYO clinic by drilling up through the roof of his mouth. My sinus infection comes every winter for years now. If you itch after swimming , you are in some kind of septic system, or overflow. cheers John "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 09:49:46PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > You are absolutely right about the mask and plugs. The sinus infection > I obtained swimming in the ocean off Barbados almost killed me. The > worst case the Canadian specialist said he had ever seen. I asked him > what would have happened if I had stayed in Barbados longer and he > said an autopsy. Yow. I've had it pretty bad, but never quite that bad - the worst it ever got to (which was about two years ago) was that my sinus drainage got plugged up, and the pain from the pressure was so bad that I felt like I was going blind. A local Veterans Aministration doctor took pity on me (since, for walk-in service, I'm supposed to go to Gainesville, 40 miles away...) and prescribed Afrin - which took care of the problem in about 15 seconds. > The only cure was 10 days in the hospital in Vancouver, a hole drilled > thru my eyebrow and a flushing saline/antibiotic drip direct into the > sinus. Even then it was years before I was really fixed. That eyebrow > plumbing job might be the fix for u Ben if it never cures. I had a > rubber tube in my eyebrow for 10 days but it sure was the cure in the end. Thanks, Mickey; I've never heard of this before, but it definitely sounds like an option if it doesn't go away. Right now, it's down to a very manageable level, and I suspect that it's going to respond to treatment pretty well - they've laid out a course, possibly (but not likely) including some mild surgery, that sounds pretty definitive. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12418|12311|2007-01-06 14:33:38|Alex Christie|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment points ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for science. Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is to try it yourself, right? Alex| 12419|12311|2007-01-06 17:32:01|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:26:09AM -0800, Alex Christie wrote: > Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment points > ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for science. > Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is > to try it yourself, right? Alex, if you happen to make it down to Florida, I hereby offer the use of Ulysses, a bunch of webbing, and what sewing skills I have (mostly with a stitch-awl for this kind of thing.) You won't need a wetsuit, either; since you're from up there in The Frozen North, 65°F is probably pretty tropical for you. :) (Me, I've been spoiled by the Caribbean. If it's below 75, I won't need a harness: I'll just levitate out.) -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12420|12311|2007-01-06 17:33:42|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Sounds like a good idea Alex. One unconfirmed report in a single magazine is not something anyone can rely on to design a safety system for a offshore cruising boat. For all anyone knows, it might have been written and paid for by someone trying to sell their own style of harness. The report by the Cruising Club of American is confirmed, and was done with non-profit funding, and has a pretty clear finding. One suggestion might be to wear heavy weather gear and boots as you would out sailing. Otherwise the drag coefficient will not be accurate. The weight of wet clothing can be a factor as well as the 20 lbs of buoyancy in the wet suit. You will float higher with a wet suit than is typical, which may make it easier to exit the water. At least it does while diving, once you get the tank and weight belt off. One area to test is the ability of the wearer to release the tether under load. There have been reports of sailors drowned by their tethers, held underwater for one reason or another. Typically it takes two arms to release a carbineer - one to take the load - the other to operate the clasp and rotate the carbineer out of the ring. In a panic underwater, it can be next to impossible to locate and open a folding knife and cut away a tether. Another test is what happens if you land in the water face down, unconscious. Does the harness roll you over onto your back so you don't drown? You have a 50-50 chance of landing face down if you go into the water and your safety system should not rely on chance to save you. Body shape can also be an issue, because human beings are typically concave on one side, and convex on the other and towed objects tends to be most stable convex side down. I've been water skiing for 50 years, towed around by my shoulder attached tethers, I've got a pretty good idea what you are going to find. For those that haven't done much water skiing, it should prove interesting and informative. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Christie Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment points ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for science. Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is to try it yourself, right? Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12421|12311|2007-01-06 18:01:48|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 02:28:34PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > One area to test is the ability of the wearer to release the tether under > load. There have been reports of sailors drowned by their tethers, held > underwater for one reason or another. Typically it takes two arms to > release a carbineer - one to take the load - the other to operate the clasp > and rotate the carbineer out of the ring. In a panic underwater, it can be > next to impossible to locate and open a folding knife and cut away a tether. (Warning: rant button activated. Feel free to delete instead of reading; I can be a cranky old bastard at times, and can be just a *tiny* bit opinionated.) If you panic, you're dead anyway. This may sound harsh, but as far as I'm concerned, rightly so. I've been in some very tight situations that required split-second action to survive - hell, I ride a motorcycle every day, and that's a regular occurrence on the road - and if I panic for even a second when someone tries to swerve into me, I'm dead. Most likely my wife, too - although she has her own bike these days, we still ride "two-up" quite often. If you're either prone to panicking in a bind, or have never tested yourself against bad situations where it could be a problem, you have no business going out to sea, period. I've had a crewman turn all blue-lipped and big-eyed on me while we were crossing the Gulf stream, scared so bad that he couldn't steer. I had to stand a two-day trick in a gale without a break because of that; it was either that, or beat enough fear into him that he'd obey me instead of his panic. I went with the "nice guy" option, which was probably a mistake (I won't get into the story, but it ended up costing me pretty big.) > Another test is what happens if you land in the water face down, > unconscious. Does the harness roll you over onto your back so you don't > drown? You have a 50-50 chance of landing face down if you go into the > water and your safety system should not rely on chance to save you. A clip in front and below the collarbone seems like a positive solution. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12422|12290|2007-01-06 20:19:31|David A. Frantz|Re: biodiesel|Hi Benjamin; At work we use a plastic material called OP4 for those areas where UV has to pass thru covers and such. As noted you can also use modified glasses and ceramics to pass UV. As to your referenced article, the interesting thing there is the wide range of energies required for the different bugs. It looks to me like this is an issue that requires a bit of study. Here is one study for sewage: http://oemagazine.com/newscast/2005/041305_newscast01.html. Dave Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 12:44:39AM -0500, David A. Frantz wrote: > > True; but the thought here is that such LEDs would not run hot > enough to > > cause a concern in a tank as far as an ignition source goes. Much of > > that excess energy in a UV bulb goes to waste as heat. While you > > would certainly want to use a window of some sort, you would not need > > fancy cooling hardware that an incandescent bulb might cause. > > > > As others have indicated; the issue comes down to how much energy is > > needed and can you get it to where it is needed. That is something I > > can't answer with this particular bug. Continuous exposure to UV > > though can be nasty, not only to life forms but many materials. Such > > an arrangement would likely ruin a plastic tank for example. > > Westinghouse did a study on germicidal lights a while back. Blue-green > algae, for example, require 420,000 microwatt-seconds per sq. cm. to > kill. See, e.g., 'http://www.todayshealthyhome.com/germicidal.htm > '. Also > note that regular (coated) glass will not pass UV, which means you'd > need specialized glass for that window. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 12423|12423|2007-01-06 21:30:52|Michael Casling|More bug stuff.|This was in the Vancouver Province 02 Jan.007. " Nasty superbug set to wreak havov " They got their info from the Canadian Medical Association Journal. They go on to say that there have been outbreaks in BC, and most of the other Provinces as well as clusters in the US, which includes proffessional athletes and toddlers. Calgary is getting 40 to 70 cases per week.The bug is saphylococcus aurius that is resistant to methicillin. You get tagged with a title " MRSA " which is what is on my file and holding up a wrist operation. Info is available by searching that name. I do not know how you prevent it, 'cause I am not sure how I got it, but I suspect it was from swimming in contaminated water. One of the other cruisers also contracted it. I rarely catch anything and never miss time off work. And I am not allergic to anything that I know of. There are some drugs that will work for some folks. This bug has killed healthy folks. I am not wanting to be an alarmest, just reporting the facts as I know them. Hoping that a bit of knowledge will help. I only added the bit about the bug as an afterthought to a previous post and was surprised that the post had legs. Michael| 12424|12311|2007-01-06 21:34:03|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Stories have a way of getting retold in the telling. The only report that I > found on Google that referenced towing people at 4 knots was the one below, > the 1998 study funded by the Cruising Club of America. It is too > co-incidental for there to be a second report. Likely you read the results > in a British magazine. > > Their conclusions don't appear to match yours. > Here is one quote: > "The sailing harnesses did a good job of keeping the wearer's head above > water, while the rock climbing and industrial harnesses did not show this > tendency." > > http://www.ussailing.org/safety/H&T/appendixii.htm Greg, I followed your link and got this table, which states that three of the sailing harnesses put the wearer's head under water and one put the wearer's face in the water. This contradicts your quote above. Have I missed something? Test Data: HarnessVmaxTowing AttitudeComfort Under LoadSlippageMiller Industrial4.0 kts windward sideGood face up If you go face down you could stay that way ExcellentChest strap moved up to neck (sewing in place might solve)West Marine Manual Inflatable6.0 kts windward sideFace close to waves Water in faceOK without inflation (inflation constricted neck)NoneHenri Lloyd Foul Weather jacket4.1 kts windward sideHead under water at 4.0 ktsUncomfortable (compresses ribs)*NoneForespar Passagemaker4.4 kts windward sideHead under waterComfortable except (see next column)Attachment point moved up toward neck **Gill Southern Cross jacket with harness4.7 kts windward sideHead under waterMore comfortable than Henri-LloydJacket moved toward throat (release zipper)West Marine Securite' Harness4.5 kts leeward sideHead out of waterComfortableShoulder straps did no work under loadArcteryx Rock Climbing (waist only)4.2 kts leeward sideVariable - head under when relaxed (not acceptable)Very comfortableNoneArcteryx w/REI chest harness1.9 kts leeward sideImprovement - doesn't let wearer go face downDiscomfort on landing due to leg straps***None Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12425|12423|2007-01-07 07:52:06|Bill Jaine|Re: More bug stuff.|Sue (wife) is a nurse in a nursing home and says that very many residents that come from hospitals now have MRSA. However the new development is CA MRSA which (I believe) is "community associated" MRSA. This is MRSA out in the general community, the example I saw quoted was "locker rooms" . The piece I read also emphasised STRONGLY, that the best preventative measure was hand washing etc. I guess you get the bug from what other people have touched. e.g. Sue goes ballistic if I use handrails in a public place...it's not just bathrooms. BUT whilst I'm on-the-line to you Michael. On behalf of all Ontarions (and I presume other easteners), I would like to thank you for the crappy weather that you and your fellow BC'rs have been enduring. When it snows in BC it's glorious in Ontario. We've had temperatures up to 12C , rain but no snow. Since it is now Jan 7th this has shortened winter considerably. Thanks Bill Port Hope Ontario Michael Casling wrote: > > This was in the Vancouver Province 02 Jan.007. " Nasty superbug set to > wreak havov " They got their info from the Canadian Medical Association > Journal. They go on to say that there have been outbreaks in BC, and > most of the other Provinces as well as clusters in the US, which > includes proffessional athletes and toddlers. Calgary is getting 40 to > 70 cases per week.The bug is saphylococcus aurius that is resistant to > methicillin. You get tagged with a title " MRSA " which is what is on > my file and holding up a wrist operation. Info is available by > searching that name. I do not know how you prevent it, 'cause I am not > sure how I got it, but I suspect it was from swimming in contaminated > water. One of the other cruisers also contracted it. I rarely catch > anything and never miss time off work. And I am not allergic to > anything that I know of. There are some drugs that will work for some > folks. This bug has killed healthy folks. I am not wanting to be an > alarmest, just reporting the facts as I know them. Hoping that a bit of > knowledge will help. I only added the bit about the bug as an > afterthought to a previous post and was surprised that the post had > legs. > Michael > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/618 - Release Date: 1/6/2007 7:47 PM > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12426|12423|2007-01-07 08:24:44|edward_stoneuk|Re: More bug stuff.|Michael, MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where hundreds of deaths occur each year. It is difficult to get to the truth of the matter as there is a tendency for hospital administrations and politicians to avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google mrsa hospital deaths uk you should be able to see what I mean. It does not seem to be associated particularly with swimming. I think the main problem is that for many years we have relied on antibiotics to heal infection but now many bacteria have developed an immunity to the antibiotic and hospital staff are having to return to skills such as washing their hands and keeping the wards and patients clean. According to the media some are unable to cope with these new skills. When I had an operation recently I showered before going into the theatre. Even though this was on my instruction sheet the nurse seemed suprised, pleased and impressed. When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the Sydney Morning Herald that the incidence of ear nose and throat infections was higher in beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. They put this down to sewage being discharged to sea nearby. When I lived in the tropics ear infections were common and called coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand or coral bits in the water scratching the ear and letting infection in. It is also common for folks in coastal villages to use the beach as a toilet. Preventative measures were to smear vaseline into the ear before swimming or wash well with fresh water afterwards. This is quite difficult to manage if one is spending some time swimming then sitting about and then swimming again. My infections lasted months and months. Cuts and insect bites in the tropics, especially if one is a new arrival and have developed no immunity almost always became infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked after. I remember watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into an ulcer on my wrist; only its tail was still visible and it was difficult to flick it out. Regards, Ted| 12427|12423|2007-01-07 13:57:35|Michael Casling|Re: More bug stuff.|Yes, agreed on all points. My X sister in law who works in an elderly care vacility is reporting the same. I received my results from the lab, via my doctor and message service, while at a regatta in Penticton. I wrote the name down as best I could and asked the owner of the Laser 28 parked next to me about it. He is a doctor at Edmonton hospital. I thanked him and then we went out and beat him with our Laser 28. He has expensive stuff on his boat. His spare main looks much better than ours. Weather inland is abiout normal, they are getting the crappy stuff at the coast which will affect many members of this group. The blow up roof on BC Place came down after it ripped. The Vancouver Boat Show is supposed to happen there in a few weeks. They say it will be fixed though. It is a bit warmer here, but still a bit too much wind to make a template for my outboard motor bracket. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Jaine wrote: > > Sue (wife) is a nurse in a nursing home and says that very many > residents that come from hospitals now have MRSA. > However the new development is CA MRSA which (I believe) is "community > associated" MRSA. > This is MRSA out in the general community, the example I saw quoted was > "locker rooms" . > The piece I read also emphasised STRONGLY, that the best preventative > measure was hand washing etc. > I guess you get the bug from what other people have touched. e.g. Sue > goes ballistic if I use handrails in a public place...it's not just > bathrooms. > > BUT > > whilst I'm on-the-line to you Michael. > > On behalf of all Ontarions (and I presume other easteners), I would > like to thank you for the crappy weather that you and your fellow > BC'rs have been enduring. When it snows in BC it's glorious in Ontario. > We've had temperatures up to 12C , rain but no snow. Since it is now Jan > 7th this has shortened winter considerably. > > Thanks > > Bill > Port Hope Ontario | 12428|12428|2007-01-07 15:50:24|mickeyolaf|BC Plywood|Our house was recently sheeted in 1/2" plywood made in BC. Ten sheets delaminated in the rain. Huge bubbles and ripples rendering the plywood useless for the paper and siding to go over it. The plywood was made by Westlam. While all plywood made in BC is supposed to be waterproof obviously some is not. Westlam sent out a rep who took pictures and some of the wood back. They are paying to replace it including the labour. The only reason I am mentioning it here is for those of u building interiors of plywood it would be a good idea to test some of what u buy for moisture delam before u install it. After this faulty stuff I would even test marine grade which is supposed to be of a higher quality. It would be pretty frustrating to have it delaminate the first time it gets wet after all of the work of fitting an interior. I've heard of various tests, boiling it for 2 hours, soaking for 24, etc. I don't know what would be a definitive test but I am once again glad my boat is made metal and not Westlam plywood. In a boat someday the plywood will get wet so u want good stuff.| 12429|12290|2007-01-08 12:29:11|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: biodiesel|We considered the germicidal lamps for the production set up but never tried them out. They apparently kill "everything" which is what you want. The exact technology, it sounds like you guys have that figured out better. What we were looking at was using them in a production environment so that the end product was, without ANY doubt, CLEAN without costing a fortune as biobore would on a production basis Insallation into your boat may be a waste of time as once cleaned I do not know if the cleaned product then goes on to clean its enviroment (as ozone will, hey, take water, dump in h202 = hydrogen peroxide, mix and breath the fumes. it will kill all the avioli that absorbe 02 in your lungs. breath in enuf and it will kill you too, but a least the ozone will have done it's job and killed everything it touches) The oxidation effects on fuel as mentioned by someone, I have no idea. For treatment of a tankful of fuel, the Biobore works and it will kill ALL of the bug throughout all of the system that the fuel comes into contact. Sort of a carry on effect and you are not treating 10-15k litres per day so the cost is an extra $10/tankfull which is cheap insurance compared to tearing down your whole system, dont forget scrubbing the tanks...such fun. Oh ya, you have to treat the fuel B4 any of the simptoms of the bug are seen, before the colony grows to any extent. The crisaline lumps and black & blue strigy shit that look like dye not mixed in with the fuel (theres some work for you lad!) In the end, if you buy CLEAN fuel from an outfit that sells lots & lots of fuel, you are probably alright for the short term. If it is cold & shitty as it is here on the wet coast in winter, the bug (and YES it IS present in ALL fuel) will be present is such small quantities it will be dormant & you are ok for the short term. If however you are headed for the tropics with that same fuel, or the summer rolls around and you don't have biobore in there and you don't burn much fuel and it sits in your tank for months... Good luck. At the same time, our vehicles are all diesel and they do not get biobore exept when we first buy them to clean out the system, from then on we burn enuf fuel so that we are not storing fuel for any length of time. Again, once burnt, thrice shy and believe me, you do not want the bug! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12430|12290|2007-01-08 16:08:57|khooper_fboats|Ozone (?) (!)|It surprises me that anybody might consider shooting ozone into a fuel tank. I don't know that much about it but my understanding is that ozone degrades into pure oxygen. It also causes rapid oxidation of whatever it encounters. There is another name for extremely rapid oxidation [fire] and it seems a likely consequence of this scheme. I know it's just diesel, but sheesh... --Ken| 12431|12290|2007-01-08 17:24:37|Peter Muth|Re: Ozone (?) (!)|Chlorine, Bleach, Ozone, Oxygen, Air, etc, are all oxidizers. Diesel survives and does not burst into flame in air, because of the activation energy problem. Same for Ozone. The ozone will lower the diesel's flashpoint, and make it burn hotter, but probably not measurably. It all depends on the ratio needed to kill the bugs. The needed ratio is not likely to be a problem, but after determining that ratio, anyone trying this will obviously have due diligence, and check the various oxidizer information associated with diesel. Peter khooper_fboats wrote: > > > It surprises me that anybody might consider shooting ozone into a fuel > tank. I don't know that much about it but my understanding is that > ozone degrades into pure oxygen. It also causes rapid oxidation of > whatever it encounters. > > There is another name for extremely rapid oxidation [fire] and it > seems a likely consequence of this scheme. I know it's just diesel, > but sheesh... > > --Ken > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12432|12428|2007-01-08 17:56:27|brentswain38|Re: BC Plywood|Thats the beauty of old used plywood . If it was going to delam it would have years ago. Much of the plywood in my boat came off the beaches . I just cut the ragged edges off and hit it with the flex disc on the angle grinder.It was well tested by the time it went into my interior, something you don't get with new plywood. This is also true of castings in a rebuilt diesel vs a new one. Rebuilt is always more relibale. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Our house was recently sheeted in 1/2" plywood made in BC. Ten sheets > delaminated in the rain. Huge bubbles and ripples rendering the > plywood useless for the paper and siding to go over it. > The plywood was made by Westlam. While all plywood made in BC is > supposed to be waterproof obviously some is not. Westlam sent out a > rep who took pictures and some of the wood back. They are paying to > replace it including the labour. > The only reason I am mentioning it here is for those of u building > interiors of plywood it would be a good idea to test some of what u > buy for moisture delam before u install it. After this faulty stuff I > would even test marine grade which is supposed to be of a higher > quality. > It would be pretty frustrating to have it delaminate the first time it > gets wet after all of the work of fitting an interior. > I've heard of various tests, boiling it for 2 hours, soaking for 24, > etc. I don't know what would be a definitive test but I am once again > glad my boat is made metal and not Westlam plywood. > In a boat someday the plywood will get wet so u want good stuff. > | 12433|12290|2007-01-08 17:58:26|brentswain38|Re: biodiesel|I saw a similar report in practical boatowner. They concluded that for a given total energy draw an LED is no more efficent than an incandescent. It was the tight focus of an LED which makes them appear brighter. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > One thing to consider, *I believe*, is that LEDs aren't as grossly more efficient than incandescent as the white-ish ones appear to the human eye. Two flashlights, LED and incandescent, that have the same apparent illumination intensity have a 5-10 fold difference in energy consumption. The difference in efficiency when measuring actual light energy isn't as great. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David A. Frantz > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; David A. Frantz > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > > Shane & group; > > I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs > that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? > > There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. > First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much > light output power would be required to get the germicidal action in a > tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would > seem possible. > > Dave > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > > treat!) > > > > cheers, > > SR > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12434|12311|2007-01-08 17:58:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>If you panic, you're dead anyway. Agreed. I don't think this is something you can really teach. I've done thousands of SCUBA dives over the years, and eventually you have a gear failure at depth. It is inevitable. No matter how often you practice, 99% of the time people react based on their personality, not their training. If anything, it is probably connected to people's instinct to fight or flight. Some people are more prone to flight than fight, and when you put them in a situation where there is no possibility of flight, such as aboard a boat or trapped underwater, they "panic". Their instincts are screaming at them to run, but there is nowhere to go. With those people, you really have no choice. There is no room for Mr. Nice Guy in any life or death situation. Something goes wrong diving, someone panics, you disable them and get both of you to the surface - else you risk having 2 dead people. The same on a boat - someone in a panic is a risk to themselves, the boat, and everyone aboard. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12435|12311|2007-01-08 17:59:03|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|It was anything but an unconfirmed report. There was full length article with photos , specs, etc. The guy who was drowned by his harness in the Farallons race was reported in 38 north . I don't think they could make it up without the shit hitting the fan, in the land of litigation. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Sounds like a good idea Alex. One unconfirmed report in a single magazine > is not something anyone can rely on to design a safety system for a offshore > cruising boat. For all anyone knows, it might have been written and paid > for by someone trying to sell their own style of harness. The report by the > Cruising Club of American is confirmed, and was done with non-profit > funding, and has a pretty clear finding. > > > > One suggestion might be to wear heavy weather gear and boots as you would > out sailing. Otherwise the drag coefficient will not be accurate. The > weight of wet clothing can be a factor as well as the 20 lbs of buoyancy in > the wet suit. You will float higher with a wet suit than is typical, which > may make it easier to exit the water. At least it does while diving, once > you get the tank and weight belt off. > > > > One area to test is the ability of the wearer to release the tether under > load. There have been reports of sailors drowned by their tethers, held > underwater for one reason or another. Typically it takes two arms to > release a carbineer - one to take the load - the other to operate the clasp > and rotate the carbineer out of the ring. In a panic underwater, it can be > next to impossible to locate and open a folding knife and cut away a tether. > > > > Another test is what happens if you land in the water face down, > unconscious. Does the harness roll you over onto your back so you don't > drown? You have a 50-50 chance of landing face down if you go into the > water and your safety system should not rely on chance to save you. Body > shape can also be an issue, because human beings are typically concave on > one side, and convex on the other and towed objects tends to be most stable > convex side down. > > > > I've been water skiing for 50 years, towed around by my shoulder attached > tethers, I've got a pretty good idea what you are going to find. For those > that haven't done much water skiing, it should prove interesting and > informative. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Alex Christie > Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:26 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment points > ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for science. > Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is > to try it yourself, right? > > Alex > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12436|12311|2007-01-08 17:59:56|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Sounds like a great idea, next summer. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment points > ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for science. > Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is > to try it yourself, right? > > Alex > | 12437|12311|2007-01-08 18:07:02|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|You forget that any clip in front leavers you wioth a hug ebow wave to =try to keep ypour head above You forget that any attachement in front leaves you with a huge bow wave to try to keep your head above. This si what killed the guy in the Farallons race. Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on the advantages of the chest attachment point. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 02:28:34PM -0800, ge@... wrote: > > > > One area to test is the ability of the wearer to release the tether under > > load. There have been reports of sailors drowned by their tethers, held > > underwater for one reason or another. Typically it takes two arms to > > release a carbineer - one to take the load - the other to operate the clasp > > and rotate the carbineer out of the ring. In a panic underwater, it can be > > next to impossible to locate and open a folding knife and cut away a tether. > > (Warning: rant button activated. Feel free to delete instead of reading;> I can be a cranky old bastard at times, and can be just a *tiny* bit > opinionated.) > > If you panic, you're dead anyway. This may sound harsh, but as far as > I'm concerned, rightly so. I've been in some very tight situations that > required split-second action to survive - hell, I ride a motorcycle > every day, and that's a regular occurrence on the road - and if I panic > for even a second when someone tries to swerve into me, I'm dead. Most > likely my wife, too - although she has her own bike these days, we still > ride "two-up" quite often. > > If you're either prone to panicking in a bind, or have never tested > yourself against bad situations where it could be a problem, you have no > business going out to sea, period. I've had a crewman turn all > blue-lipped and big-eyed on me while we were crossing the Gulf stream, > scared so bad that he couldn't steer. I had to stand a two-day trick in > a gale without a break because of that; it was either that, or beat > enough fear into him that he'd obey me instead of his panic. I went with > the "nice guy" option, which was probably a mistake (I won't get into > the story, but it ended up costing me pretty big.) > > > Another test is what happens if you land in the water face down, > > unconscious. Does the harness roll you over onto your back so you don't > > drown? You have a 50-50 chance of landing face down if you go into the > > water and your safety system should not rely on chance to save you. > > A clip in front and below the collarbone seems like a positive solution. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12438|12438|2007-01-08 19:07:10|mickeyolaf|Self Tending Tacking Jibs|On my "never finished" 36 I've installed the track ahead of the mast for a self tacking jib on a car with the control led up the mast, back down to an exit and back to the cockpit. I have also welded down 12' of track on each of the side decks and 6' each side of the cabin top aft of the mast. I should now have infinite variation on the jib(s) handling theme. I can still use a conventional jib if I want to but the s/t jib seems to be a no brainer for single handing. I see the new Tarten 34 has one as well as a mess of other new boats including some high end ones. I also now can use an inner self tacking staysail and a regular jib on furling which should make sail reduction easy. I have no idea how the self tacking jib will perform and whether there will be enough sail area and whether the boat will balance but testing it out will be half the fun? I'd like to cut jib(s) high so as to increase visibility. At least with all of that hardware on the deck and sheets and lines running everwhere I 'll look like I know what I'm doing. The first Swain 36 racing motorsailor. Anybody ever dealt with UK sailmakers? I was thinking of having them build my first set.| 12439|12311|2007-01-08 19:11:37|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>This happened in the Farallons race on a fully crewed race boat a few >>years back, before the crew could get the boat stopped or before they >>could pull him in. Was this Harvey Shlask, aboard White Lighting in the 1999 Doublehanded Farallones Race? Reports are that he was dragged for approximately 20 minutes, about 5 feet behind the boat, and eventually had to be unclipped so another boat could recover the body. He was not recovered aboard his own boat. Here is an excerpt: It was only then that Mark realized that Shlasky was in trouble. he looked back to see the 51 year old software developer being submarined through the water, "just like someone who won't let go of a waterski rope," says Mark. Van Selst said Harvey was trying to say something to him, but it kept getting lost in the wind. To my mind, Shlasky was killed by his tether. It was too long. No harness, regardless of design, will guarantee your survival once you are in the water. There was no way he could get back to the boat, nor could the crew stop the boat or pull him aboard. The SOSpenders vests may have contributed - the attachment point on the vest is to my eye too low - but if that is the case there would have been a finding at the coroner's inquest and at the very least the SOSpenders vests would have been redesigned, if not the subject of a wrongful death lawsuit. I prefer a higher attachment in a harness. Nipple height or above. It ends up pulling almost identically to a shoulder attached harness, with the advantage of rolling you onto your back if you are unconscious. The single tether is right in front of you, accessible with two hands for releasing, without the complication of dealing with two tethers, one on each side. If you do go into the water, the tether ends up almost at your mouth, making this the highest point, giving you the best chance of being able to breath. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12440|12311|2007-01-08 20:00:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. I've always maintained that the purpose of the harness and tether is to keep you out of the water, because I already know what happens when you get dragged behind. Been there, done that. Drag any average person in a seaway at speed, regardless of harness design; they will never be able to pull themselves back to the boat. Drag any average person in a seaway long enough, regardless of harness design, they will drown. I have a lot more faith in people that volunteer themselves than volunteer others. Why not volunteer yourself? Prove your ideas work by having yourself towed at 7 knots. Don't leave it to me and Alex. And why wait for summer? People sail all year round. I've been diving many times in the winter because the visibility is best then. At depth, it isn't any warmer in summer. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12441|12311|2007-01-08 20:09:00|ANDREW AIREY|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hi All Was out on an old Dutch sailing barge last year which had a sort of concertina ladder mounted on the tiller,which presumeably provided some support,Dutch barge tillers being on the large side.Anyway,a few weeks after we left it got used in ernest as one of the crew - in his 80's - fell in,and was retreived successfully.Just a thought cheers andy airey ps how about a fold down ladder with the bottom section pivoted above the bottom of the top(fixed) section so that this provides support and keeps the ladder straight when in use Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 12442|12442|2007-01-08 21:15:02|Aaron|Mast and Rigging|I have been serching online for sail track that I could use if I build a steel mast for the BS36 any recomendations? Aaron| 12443|12311|2007-01-08 21:33:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>You forget that any attachement in front leaves you with a huge bow >>wave to try to keep your head above. This si what killed the guy in >>the Farallons race. Put the attachment on your shoulders, and your head will be underwater when facing forward, and it will stay there if you are unconscious. Put the attachment on your chest, and it will roll you over onto your back, unless you fight it. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12444|12311|2007-01-08 21:43:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>It was anything but an unconfirmed report. There was full length >>article with photos , specs, etc. The guy who was drowned by his >>harness in the Farallons race was reported in 38 north . He was killed by being dragged for 20 minutes in a storm. The crew were never able to retrieve him and finally had to release the tether. Where is the report that the "British" has shown that a shoulder attached harness was the solution. I ask this because the British have a mandated standard for harnesses and tethers on yachts: EN 1095. Deck safety harness and safety line for use on recreational craft. Safety requirements and test methods This standard is on its way to becoming the EU standard. If there was a report that contradicted EN 1095, it would be big news. It isn't, therefore it doesn't exist, or it turned out to be a couple of guys down at the pub having everyone on. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12445|12442|2007-01-08 23:16:33|Barry Gorman|Re: Mast and Rigging|why not use steel rings ? on a steel mast we will here you coming and going ! ( a little humour) Barry Gorman Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA BarryandPamGorman@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 1:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Mast and Rigging I have been serching online for sail track that I could use if I build a steel mast for the BS36 any recomendations? Aaron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12446|12442|2007-01-09 00:15:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Mast and Rigging|>>why not use steel rings ? >>on a steel mast we will here you coming and going ! >>( a little humour) Same reason pzss is yellow and czme is white, so yachties can tell if they're coming or going. apologies in advance, g [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12447|12311|2007-01-09 02:49:22|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. The only advantage I'm aware of on a chest attachment is that it rolls you over if you go into the water, so an unconscious person can breathe. This is hardly my theory, and it would be a lie to suggest that it is. Everyone knows full well that I don't agree with any harness system that drags people through the water. Just because someone drowns with one style of harness in a storm doesn't prove they would have been saved with any other. That is fruit-cake logic. Drag anyone through that water at speed in a storm. I don't dare what harness you have. If you leave them in for any length of time they will drown. Especially if the water is rough and cold. Anyone that has doubts about this has never been dragged behind a boat at speed in a seaway. I have been dragged. Make sure you have before you start telling people what is safe and what isn't. Otherwise it is just a bunch of hot air, book learning without practical experience. If you are willing to be dragged behind a boat to prove your point, don't wait until summer. That is for pussies, little girls afraid of cold water. Don't wear a wet suit, because the cold is part of the reason you will die. Few sailors wear wet suits. Any sort of speed, especially if it is rough and the boat is pitching and yawing, unless you are in top shape, you will never pull yourself back to the boat. If it is cold, this is doubly so, because the cold rapidly reduces muscle strength. If you don't drown you will die of hypothermia. Lie face down in the water, like you have just gone over the side unconscious, and see what happens when you are dragged at 7+ knots in storm conditions. You won't last 2 minutes without having to force yourself onto your back - something an unconscious person cannot do. If you were unconscious, you are now dead. Human beings are not very buoyant. You don't go over the waves - you go through them. Like a submarine, without a snorkel. As you are dragged on your back, you will plow underwater through the big waves, gagging and choking as water reaches your lungs. Few people can survive long like this because of our anatomy. You will immediately want to roll on your front to clear your lungs, to stop the gagging and choking so you can breathe, only to find your head now underwater. As you struggle to get your head up you will tire, until exhaustion takes its toll. If you wear a wet suit, in calm water, you will survive being towed by a boat. However, few of us sail in those conditions and it is not a fair test. Get out in a seaway, no wet suit, have yourself towed and see what it is like. If you survive, you will recommend people shorten their tether. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12448|12311|2007-01-09 09:44:38|khooper_fboats|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we need him to finish the second DVD.| 12449|12311|2007-01-09 11:56:23|steve rankin|Re: fuel|I just changed hydraulic oil in my system to a heavier oil. Any reason I shouldnt dump the 15 gal of hydraulic oil into my fuel tank and burn it? Obviously it goes thru major filtering before it is used. /fact is, I 've often wondered why one couldnt dispose of used engine oil this way as well. I filter my fuel using toilet paper filters which are filtering to 1 micron. Steve| 12450|12311|2007-01-09 13:20:48|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. >>Brent Personal crap like this doesn't belong on this site. This doesn't help Alex moderate the group one bit. I see any more of this BS, Alex will have to pull the plug on this thread as well. Think I'm bluffing, call me. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12451|12311|2007-01-09 13:22:52|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we need him >>to finish the second DVD. Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the one that says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He is the one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he hasn't done this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing have you done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the testing was valid and representative of actual conditions? Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without testing - would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their attorney, their insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested product. The officers of the company could be held personally liable. Wiped out, bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, no matter how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no problem. You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and money for anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like this. They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own reward. It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is "relatively" safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low freeboard, highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do get into trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your hands automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in trouble. It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat is not maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore the ocean is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors make it extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat with a harness and tether. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12452|12311|2007-01-09 14:25:10|Gerd|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|talking about man over board.. the british Practical Boat Owner Mag has put a series of videos online on recovery tests they have conducted. have a look at http://www.ybw.com/pbo/video/rnli-mob.html Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-projet.com| 12453|12311|2007-01-09 15:05:38|khooper_fboats|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are "based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical testing? > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the one that > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He is the > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he hasn't done > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing have you > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the testing > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without testing - > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their attorney, their > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested product. > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. Wiped out, > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, no matter > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no problem. > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and money for > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like this. > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own reward. > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is "relatively" > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low freeboard, > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do get into > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your hands > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in trouble. > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat is not > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore the ocean > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors make it > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat with a > harness and tether. > > Greg Elliott | 12454|12311|2007-01-09 15:07:08|Alex Christie|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I'll make sure to take out a big life insurance policy :p Either that or grow gills... Alex On 8-Jan-07, at 2:51 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > Sounds like a great idea, next summer. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie > wrote: > > > > Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment > points > > ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for > science. > > Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is > > to try it yourself, right? > > > > Alex > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12455|12311|2007-01-09 18:08:23|Earl|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|That looks to be a safe, reliable method of getting someone _else_ aboard. I spend much of my time out by myself. Ergo, the net over the side would seem more usable. I had to use cargo nets to come back aboard after recovering practice torpedoes, etc. Earl Gerd wrote: > talking about man over board.. the british Practical Boat Owner Mag has > put a series of videos online on recovery tests they have conducted. > have a look at http://www.ybw.com/pbo/video/rnli-mob.html > | 12456|12311|2007-01-09 19:51:27|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Ben Seeing as you are the guy in the warm tropical Florida waters and we ar in the frozen north, why don't you take out a few local swimming enthusiasts and try out the different attachement points . Let us know what you find out. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 11:26:09AM -0800, Alex Christie wrote: > > Why don't we just get together and test the different attachment points > > ourselves? If I can get a wetsuit, I'll volunteer my body for science. > > Sometimes the only way to really know for sure is something works is > > to try it yourself, right? > > Alex, if you happen to make it down to Florida, I hereby offer the use > of Ulysses, a bunch of webbing, and what sewing skills I have (mostly > with a stitch-awl for this kind of thing.) You won't need a wetsuit, > either; since you're from up there in The Frozen North, 65°F is probably > pretty tropical for you. :) > > (Me, I've been spoiled by the Caribbean. If it's below 75, I won't need > a harness: I'll just levitate out.) > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12457|12423|2007-01-09 19:54:42|brentswain38|Re: More bug stuff.|When A a friend in Tonga got an ear infection after diving I started washing my ears out with diluted alcohol after diving. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Michael, > > MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where hundreds of deaths occur > each year. It is difficult to get to the truth of the matter as > there is a tendency for hospital administrations and politicians to > avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google mrsa hospital deaths > uk you should be able to see what I mean. It does not seem to be > associated particularly with swimming. I think the main problem is > that for many years we have relied on antibiotics to heal infection > but now many bacteria have developed an immunity to the antibiotic > and hospital staff are having to return to skills such as washing > their hands and keeping the wards and patients clean. According to > the media some are unable to cope with these new skills. When I had > an operation recently I showered before going into the theatre. Even > though this was on my instruction sheet the nurse seemed suprised, > pleased and impressed. > > When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the Sydney Morning Herald > that the incidence of ear nose and throat infections was higher in > beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. They put this down to > sewage being discharged to sea nearby. > > When I lived in the tropics ear infections were common and called > coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand or coral bits in the > water scratching the ear and letting infection in. It is also common > for folks in coastal villages to use the beach as a toilet. > Preventative measures were to smear vaseline into the ear before > swimming or wash well with fresh water afterwards. This is quite > difficult to manage if one is spending some time swimming then > sitting about and then swimming again. My infections lasted months > and months. Cuts and insect bites in the tropics, especially if one > is a new arrival and have developed no immunity almost always became > infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked after. I remember > watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into an ulcer on my wrist; > only its tail was still visible and it was difficult to flick it out. > > Regards, > Ted > | 12458|12311|2007-01-09 19:55:30|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|You could breath being pulled by the mouth if it wasn't for the huge bow wave you build up. That was the problem with the practical boat owner tests . A shoulder attachement lets you detatch yourself , yet keep your head above water and still breath. Yess that probably was the case I mentioned. He wouldn't have submarined if he didn't have the bow wave in his face. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>This happened in the Farallons race on a fully crewed race boat a few > >>years back, before the crew could get the boat stopped or before they > >>could pull him in. > > Was this Harvey Shlask, aboard White Lighting in the 1999 Doublehanded > Farallones Race? Reports are that he was dragged for approximately 20 > minutes, about 5 feet behind the boat, and eventually had to be unclipped so > another boat could recover the body. He was not recovered aboard his own > boat. > > Here is an excerpt: It was only then that Mark realized that Shlasky was in > trouble. he looked back to see the 51 year old software developer being > submarined through the water, "just like someone who won't let go of a > waterski rope," says Mark. Van Selst said Harvey was trying to say something > to him, but it kept getting lost in the wind. > > To my mind, Shlasky was killed by his tether. It was too long. No harness, > regardless of design, will guarantee your survival once you are in the > water. There was no way he could get back to the boat, nor could the crew > stop the boat or pull him aboard. > > The SOSpenders vests may have contributed - the attachment point on the vest > is to my eye too low - but if that is the case there would have been a > finding at the coroner's inquest and at the very least the SOSpenders vests > would have been redesigned, if not the subject of a wrongful death lawsuit. > > I prefer a higher attachment in a harness. Nipple height or above. It ends > up pulling almost identically to a shoulder attached harness, with the > advantage of rolling you onto your back if you are unconscious. The single > tether is right in front of you, accessible with two hands for releasing, > without the complication of dealing with two tethers, one on each side. If > you do go into the water, the tether ends up almost at your mouth, making > this the highest point, giving you the best chance of being able to breath. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12459|12438|2007-01-09 19:57:01|brentswain38|Re: Self Tending Tacking Jibs|I once tried the self tacking jib . Good for stronger winds but its difficult to get enough sail area for lighter winds without an overlap. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > On my "never finished" 36 I've installed the track ahead of the mast > for a self tacking jib on a car with the control led up the mast, > back down to an exit and back to the cockpit. I have also welded > down 12' of track on each of the side decks and 6' each side of the > cabin top aft of the mast. I should now have infinite variation on > the jib(s) handling theme. > I can still use a conventional jib if I want to but the s/t jib > seems to be a no brainer for single handing. I see the new Tarten 34 > has one as well as a mess of other new boats including some high end > ones. > I also now can use an inner self tacking staysail and a regular jib > on furling which should make sail reduction easy. > I have no idea how the self tacking jib will perform and whether > there will be enough sail area and whether the boat will balance but > testing it out will be half the fun? I'd like to cut jib(s) high so > as to increase visibility. > At least with all of that hardware on the deck and sheets and lines > running everwhere I 'll look like I know what I'm doing. > The first Swain 36 racing motorsailor. > Anybody ever dealt with UK sailmakers? I was thinking of having them > build my first set. > | 12460|12311|2007-01-09 20:01:38|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Any tether attached to a deck length jack line which is short enough to stop you from reaching the water is also short enough to stop you from reaching the mast to reef. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave > >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on > >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. > > > > I've always maintained that the purpose of the harness and tether is to keep > you out of the water, because I already know what happens when you get > dragged behind. Been there, done that. > > Drag any average person in a seaway at speed, regardless of harness design; > they will never be able to pull themselves back to the boat. Drag any > average person in a seaway long enough, regardless of harness design, they > will drown. > > I have a lot more faith in people that volunteer themselves than volunteer > others. Why not volunteer yourself? Prove your ideas work by having > yourself towed at 7 knots. Don't leave it to me and Alex. > > And why wait for summer? People sail all year round. I've been diving many > times in the winter because the visibility is best then. At depth, it isn't > any warmer in summer. > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12461|12311|2007-01-09 20:05:34|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so would skew the results. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we need him > >>to finish the second DVD. > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the one that > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He is the > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he hasn't done > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing have you > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the testing > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without testing - > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their attorney, their > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested product. > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. Wiped out, > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, no matter > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no problem. > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and money for > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like this. > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own reward. > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is "relatively" > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low freeboard, > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do get into > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your hands > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in trouble. > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat is not > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore the ocean > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors make it > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat with a > harness and tether. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12462|12311|2007-01-11 14:45:14|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Greg is dead nuts right on this. I have two photos round here somewhere taken about 1 second apart. The first shows me hooked to my original harness and bowline working at the mast, and the second shows the same location with nothing but the remnants of the green water wave that had just tossed me thru the lifelines and over the side. It took what seemed forever for my father in law and I to coordinate my reboarding from where i was being dragged along the side of the hull. Wear a harness, keep the line SHORT, so short in fact that you can't hit the water. agreed that this is the conservative approach, but if there's any kind of weather, you only get to get it wrong once. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A well designed harness system prevents you from going into the water, > because once there your odds of survival are very low. The hull speed of a > 6 foot person is about 3.25 knots. Beyond that, you make a wave that makes > it near impossible to get back aboard, that will drown you given the > slightest opportunity. Anyone that has done much water-skiing will have > experienced this, if you have held onto the rope when starting, after your > skis fell off. Have someone tow you at 6-7 knots behind a boat if there is > any doubt. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12463|12311|2007-01-11 14:45:55|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I'm not sure i understand how your lines are rigged Brent. Mine ran down the centerline of the boat about thigh height. I could move from one side to the other with no problem whatsoever with the length shortened :) heheheh, so that I couldn't get over the side if I wanted too. No carabiners for me either, dunno what those spring'd hooks are called but basically just a regular hook with a piece of doubled spring steel to keep the hook from falling off the rings when slack. When I sold the boat, I kept the harness and tethers. Buyer 'knew it all', was a 'champion swimmer' etc....soooo.....I kept my rig. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Any tether attached to a deck length jack line which is short enough > to stop you from reaching the water is also short enough to stop you > from reaching the mast to reef. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave > > >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on > > >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. > > > > > > > > I've always maintained that the purpose of the harness and tether is > to keep > > you out of the water, because I already know what happens when you get > > dragged behind. Been there, done that. > > > > Drag any average person in a seaway at speed, regardless of harness > design; > > they will never be able to pull themselves back to the boat. Drag any > > average person in a seaway long enough, regardless of harness > design, they > > will drown. > > > > I have a lot more faith in people that volunteer themselves than > volunteer > > others. Why not volunteer yourself? Prove your ideas work by having > > yourself towed at 7 knots. Don't leave it to me and Alex. > > > > And why wait for summer? People sail all year round. I've been > diving many > > times in the winter because the visibility is best then. At depth, > it isn't > > any warmer in summer. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12464|12311|2007-01-11 14:46:36|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|One thing about nets that I think someone might have mentioned, is that if the rope is not of sufficient diameter, and stiff enough, the damn thing acts like a chinese finger trap when any tension is applied. When I had to go down under the boat to cut off a piece of fishing net that had wrapped around my prop, I reached out and grabbed the net and as the boat moved forward in the swell it clamped down on my hand and darn near jerked my arm out of its socket. I would think the same thing would happen if an insufficiently stout net was hung over the side of a boat for recovery. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Earl wrote: > > That looks to be a safe, reliable method of getting someone _else_ > aboard. I spend much of my time out by myself. Ergo, the net over the > side would seem more usable. I had to use cargo nets to come back > aboard after recovering practice torpedoes, etc. > > Earl > > Gerd wrote: > > talking about man over board.. the british Practical Boat Owner Mag has > > put a series of videos online on recovery tests they have conducted. > > have a look at http://www.ybw.com/pbo/video/rnli-mob.html > > > | 12465|12311|2007-01-11 14:47:05|Aaron Williams|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|They make some really nice retractable cable blocks for elevated work that are osha certified and they will only let you free fall 6' but you can slowly extend 12' or something like that. Aaron brentswain38 wrote: Any tether attached to a deck length jack line which is short enough to stop you from reaching the water is also short enough to stop you from reaching the mast to reef. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave > >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on > >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. > > > > I've always maintained that the purpose of the harness and tether is to keep > you out of the water, because I already know what happens when you get > dragged behind. Been there, done that. > > Drag any average person in a seaway at speed, regardless of harness design; > they will never be able to pull themselves back to the boat. Drag any > average person in a seaway long enough, regardless of harness design, they > will drown. > > I have a lot more faith in people that volunteer themselves than volunteer > others. Why not volunteer yourself? Prove your ideas work by having > yourself towed at 7 knots. Don't leave it to me and Alex. > > And why wait for summer? People sail all year round. I've been diving many > times in the winter because the visibility is best then. At depth, it isn't > any warmer in summer. > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12466|12466|2007-01-11 14:47:11|edward_stoneuk|harnesses and jacklines|I agree with Greg when he says the purpose of harnesses and jacklines etc., should be to prevent falling overboard. I have seen industrial plant where a safety fence has not been appropriate and jacklines have been permanently rigged at chest height and some way back from the edge to minimise the possibility of falling. Boats I have sailed on have the jack stays at foot level a couple of feet from the edge. Ideally, if one draws an end view of the system with the jackstay shown as the centre of a circle whose radius equals the length of the harness tether then the circle should not go past the edge of the boat. Easier said than done but it would appear that a central jackstay at chest height with a 3 foot and a 6 foot tether on the harness would be perhaps the only way. This would conflict with most sails and at the bow be almost impossible to arrange and we are left with the possibility of falling in and being dragged through the water or battered against the side of the boat. Of course high gunwales, well built lifelines and safety netting are all parts of a safety system and so is a recovery system. The more I read the posts on this forum the more I realise how dangerous it all is in a vessel any smaller than the Titanic. Regards, Ted| 12467|12290|2007-01-11 14:47:14|seeratlas|Re: biodiesel|Brent, Shane, When I was a kid my father's company played around with trying to create a bio solution to oil spills, mainly breeding a specific bacteria to eat the stuff. What they found was that it starts off great but then dies out as what's going on is like burning the fuel off, just using a living organism to oxidize it as opposed to fire, at some point the bacteria couldn't get the oxygen they needed and the whole process slowed to a near standstill. I have wondered whether more numerous smaller tanks filled full, would retard the 'bug' by limiting its oxygen supply, as opposed to the larger partially filled tanks, or maybe pumping some co2 in or something :) just brainstorming LOL seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I saw a similar report in practical boatowner. They concluded that for > a given total energy draw an LED is no more efficent than an > incandescent. It was the tight focus of an LED which makes them appear > brighter. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > One thing to consider, *I believe*, is that LEDs aren't as grossly > more efficient than incandescent as the white-ish ones appear to the > human eye. Two flashlights, LED and incandescent, that have the same > apparent illumination intensity have a 5-10 fold difference in energy > consumption. The difference in efficiency when measuring actual light > energy isn't as great. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David A. Frantz > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ; David A. Frantz > > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: biodiesel > > > > > > Shane & group; > > > > I'm wondering if anybody here has tried out he new UV wavelength LEDs > > that have come on the market lately for germicidal use in such tanks? > > > > There should be a number of advantages in this sort of environment. > > First; low power. Second; low heat output. I'm not sure how much > > light output power would be required to get the germicidal action > in a > > tank of any size, but driving the illuminator with solar power would > > seem possible. > > > > Dave > > > > SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > > > > > > Someone mentioned using Bio-Bore to prevent "the bug" > > > which is a naturaly occuring group of beasties that > > > eat diesel, including biodiesel. > > > > > > These bugs/beasties live, or at least start at the > > > surface where water & diesel/biodiesel meet, so for > > > starters, keep H20 out of your fuel. once it really > > > gets going it will be right through all of your fuel. > > > and it REALLY grows in the tropics which I have found > > > out the hard way going cheap on fuel (have now gone > > > the other way & am anal as hell on fuel cleanliness) > > > > > > Though it does not grow as quickly in cooler climates, > > > it still grows & using Bio-bore is your only defence > > > (other than perhaps useing a germacidal lamp which > > > kills everything but it would be a pain in the ass & > > > you'd have to plumb a special system 4 it on a boat & > > > you need a/c power & why bother as Bio-bore works a > > > treat!) > > > > > > cheers, > > > SR > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12468|12311|2007-01-11 14:47:56|tazmannusa|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|After looking at my 26 seems like running the jack lines inboard ie both sides of the mast with a teather just long enough to reach the stansions would be the safest bet, would still be able to stand at the mast for reefing and not go overboard, I personaly would prefer to stay on the boat and not test any theories of be draged and not drown. I have allways been a firm beleaver that on the the boat your a lot higher on the food chain than in the water ! Tom --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Any tether attached to a deck length jack line which is short enough > to stop you from reaching the water is also short enough to stop you > from reaching the mast to reef. > Brent | 12469|12311|2007-01-11 14:48:02|Jim Baltaxe|Re: fuel|Hi Steve The big issue would be what detergents and additives are in the oil. There could well be some compounds which could get very nasty if burned, both to the environment and to the engine itself. Check with the manufacturer/distributor of the oil. They should know. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe ITS Desktop Support Victoria University of Wellington NEW ZEALAND (04) 463 5018 or 027 563 5018 I suffer from mental incontinence. Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within. "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steve rankin > Sent: Wednesday, 10 January 2007 5:56 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fuel > > > I just changed hydraulic oil in my system to a heavier oil. > Any reason I shouldnt dump the 15 gal of hydraulic oil into > my fuel tank and burn it? Obviously it goes thru major > filtering before it is used. /fact is, I 've often wondered > why one couldnt dispose of used engine oil this way as well. > I filter my fuel using toilet paper filters which are > filtering to 1 micron. > Steve > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12470|12311|2007-01-11 14:48:11|P-O Gustafsson|Re: fuel|steve rankin wrote: > I just changed hydraulic oil in my system to a heavier oil. Any reason I > shouldnt dump the 15 gal of hydraulic oil into my fuel tank and burn it? > Obviously it goes thru major filtering before it is used. /fact is, I > 've often wondered why one couldnt dispose of used engine oil this way > as well. Engine oils contain some very toxic additives like heavy metals. Dangerous for you and the environment. Not sure about hydraulic oil, but I would hesitate to burn it. Better leave it to recycling. -- Regards P-O| 12471|12311|2007-01-11 14:50:42|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Let me toss in my remaining 13 cents here. As I've just written, I'm with greg on trying to arrange the harness to keep you out of the water. On the other hand, one doesn't often use a harness 24/7 in fair weather. I also towed a 3/4 inch line with a bight pretty much any time I was out away from other boat traffic. In that instance where I got my noggin cracked, it was that stern line that I managed to catch as I tried to regain my bearings. Getting back to the boat in that seaway was a bit of a trial, much like fishing, in the slack, you pulled like hell to gain ground, then as the boat surged on the front side of the wave, you wrapped the line around something and tried not to lose the ground you just made. I think that nets below Brent's recommended solid railing is a good idea. In my case the wave took me right thru the stainless lifelines, snapping them quite easily. On boarding ladders, again, consider something that you can start climbing using your knees instead of folding up your legs with your knees in your teeth trying to get your feet on the lowest rung. Greg's comment on undesirables boarding techniques is also worth considering and planning for imho. While I was in Italy, I saw a beautiful piece of stainless work that unfolded down the starboard quarter into a series of steps that ended in a swim platform. When unfolded it was amazingly stable, and quite attractive, when folded up it took up surprisingly little room at the rail. While intricate, in utility it beat anything I've seen, before or since. As Brent and others have pointed out, the stern is a mean place in a seaway , the beam/quarter is far easier to deal with from the water. Lastly, unless you have some seriously powerful people on board, if you're anything remotely overweight, its going to take some kind of leverage, blocks/tackle, something to get you out of the water if you're in speedo's. If you're in foul weather gear in a seaway, its going to take a winch, and someone to operate it. Sooooo, some kind of a foldup ladder for swimming, and casual ingress, egress; a seriously considered harness/tether setup that keeps you on deck in heavy seas when you can't avoid going up forward; a 'last chance' towed line, only because its worth having 'one last chance' when you really need one.. (I did); and lastly, a good stout boat with solid rails and nets, designed with a good pilothouse, and a rig controlled easily from the cockpit and enough foresight to get your reefs in before you need to so you don't have to risk your life out in the weather on deck alone in the first place :) Oh, and I've been towed by a parachute across the surface of water for several hundred yards, with attachment points on the shoulder and would have to side with Brent on that issue. Don't know about the specific harnesses described in the articles Greg cited, but I wasn't drowning with the parachute shoulder points, despite having a lot of mil gear strapped on and about me at the time. I should note that the chute was skipping along parallel to and on top of the water, and not vertical if anyone was wondering. Finally, I think having something rigged up to that towed line that would depower the rig so that it rounded up if something heavy got on the line is a good idea, oh and put a loop in it so when you get to the end and need to rest, you can stick an arm or leg or anything in it so you can rest your hands. The Solution would have to be specific to each boat and rig, but the shock cord to tiller, or anything to stop the boat relatively quickly seems like a good idea. I would think it would be a really lousy feeling to be in the water watching your boat sail off over the horizon.......especially when you could have done something about that in advance. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy > that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so > would skew the results. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we need him > > >>to finish the second DVD. > > > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the one that > > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He > is the > > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he hasn't done > > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing > have you > > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the > testing > > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without testing - > > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their > attorney, their > > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested > product. > > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. Wiped out, > > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, > no matter > > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no problem. > > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and money for > > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like this. > > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own > reward. > > > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is > "relatively" > > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low > freeboard, > > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do > get into > > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your > hands > > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in > trouble. > > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat > is not > > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore > the ocean > > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors make it > > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat > with a > > harness and tether. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12472|12311|2007-01-11 14:52:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|>>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical >>testing? If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would consider that a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and copied it for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? How would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do anything about it? Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12473|12311|2007-01-11 15:25:08|Tom|Re: fuel|Hey Steve I wouldnt recomend putting used oil in for fuel could reak havok on things, seals in injection pump fuel pump ect. + taking a chance of carboning up the rings Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve rankin" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fuel > > I just changed hydraulic oil in my system to a heavier oil. Any reason I > shouldnt dump the 15 gal of hydraulic oil into my fuel tank and burn it? > Obviously it goes thru major filtering before it is used. /fact is, I 've > often wondered why one couldnt dispose of used engine oil this way as > well. I filter my fuel using toilet paper filters which are filtering to 1 > micron. > Steve > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12474|12311|2007-01-11 15:25:48|edward_stoneuk|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I agree with Greg the purpose of a tether and harness system should be to keep you out of the water. To that effect the positioning of the jackstay(s)needs more thought. I have seen industrial plant where maintenance workers use a harness, tether and jackstay because there is not enough space for safety guard rails. From memory the jackstay was at shoulder or chest height and positioned back from the edge so that the radius of the tether made it difficult to go over the edge. Boats that I have sailed on mostly have jacklines at foot level only a couple of feet from the edge. With a six foot tether and low guard rails the system will not prevent one going into the water. To work correctly, the jackstay tether sytem has to be such that viewed from the end of the boat circles drawn of a radius equal to the tether with a centre that represents the end on view of the jackstay do not cross the edge of the boat. Twin tethers of different lengths are avalable and could be used for the pointy bits of the vessel. Other considerations are that the system allows one to duck out of the way of the boom. Good bulwarks and guard rails are an integral part of the safety system. Until this thread I had not thought seriously about the positioning of the jacklines and I can see that what I was going to do was wrong. Regards, Ted| 12475|12423|2007-01-11 15:25:54|Gary|Re: More bug stuff.|Would undiluted hydrogen peroxide be too strong for one's ear? It seems to be a good disinfectant on cuts and scrapes etc... Thanks --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > When A a friend in Tonga got an ear infection after diving I started > washing my ears out with diluted alcohol after diving. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > Michael, > > > > MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where hundreds of deaths occur > > each year. It is difficult to get to the truth of the matter as > > there is a tendency for hospital administrations and politicians to > > avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google mrsa hospital deaths > > uk you should be able to see what I mean. It does not seem to be > > associated particularly with swimming. I think the main problem is > > that for many years we have relied on antibiotics to heal infection > > but now many bacteria have developed an immunity to the antibiotic > > and hospital staff are having to return to skills such as washing > > their hands and keeping the wards and patients clean. According to > > the media some are unable to cope with these new skills. When I had > > an operation recently I showered before going into the theatre. Even > > though this was on my instruction sheet the nurse seemed suprised, > > pleased and impressed. > > > > When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the Sydney Morning Herald > > that the incidence of ear nose and throat infections was higher in > > beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. They put this down to > > sewage being discharged to sea nearby. > > > > When I lived in the tropics ear infections were common and called > > coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand or coral bits in the > > water scratching the ear and letting infection in. It is also common > > for folks in coastal villages to use the beach as a toilet. > > Preventative measures were to smear vaseline into the ear before > > swimming or wash well with fresh water afterwards. This is quite > > difficult to manage if one is spending some time swimming then > > sitting about and then swimming again. My infections lasted months > > and months. Cuts and insect bites in the tropics, especially if one > > is a new arrival and have developed no immunity almost always became > > infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked after. I remember > > watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into an ulcer on my wrist; > > only its tail was still visible and it was difficult to flick it out. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > | 12476|12476|2007-01-11 15:26:08|Tom|trouble posting|Anyone else having trouble posting messages? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12477|12311|2007-01-11 15:26:46|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Any fold down stern ladder should not be designed for use on your feet, but rather with your knees. This is much easier to pull up/lever your upper body up out of the water, if you can then turn and sit your butt on something you're in good shape. Anyone that does any water skiing, gets dead tired, then tries to climb up one of those short little ski ladders knows what I'm talking about :) seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burgoyne" > wrote: > > > > There have been cases, well, as least one that I know of, where a > solo > > sailor wearing a harness has gone over the side and not had the > strength to > > pull himself back up... and just hung in the water. > > > > A stern ladder, that can be released from the water, is pretty much > > mandatory. I don't have one. I have a small step that folds down. > It's a > > bitch, but usable. If necessary, I could, I think, climb up my > Monitor. > > > > I do like some designs that have fold down stern swim platforms or > ice cream > > scoops with steps down to the water. Also makes a lot of sense when > living > > on anchor, with swimming and loading and unloading the dinghy. A > friend, who > > is now due now, to sail west from Phuket, has a French aluminum > design with > > an ice cream scoop and says he could never go back. Vanes are > usually not a > > problem, especially with Capehorns which can be installed offset. > > > > > Whatever recovery system you opt for, I'd suggest trying it out under > representative conditions before having any faith in it. > > Some years back, as an experiment I chucked myself into Cherbourg > harbour fully clothed and swam along a line of sterns (much to the > amusement/curiosity of those on board) to see which boats - if any - > I could have boarded unaided. It became quickly apparent that I was > VERY low in the water relative to the height of even the sugar-scoop > sterns, and that NONE of the boats could have been boarded without > assistance - and that was on a sunny day under dead flat conditions. > At the stern of our own boat, the so-called 'swim ladder' had already > been lowered with my antics in mind, but even so I couldn't get a > foothold as the ladder was only waist-deep. When pulling upwards > with my arms, my legs simply slid underneath the ladder, with my > thighs thus preventing any further upwards movement. Unaided, the > prospect of getting onboard via this ladder was hopeless, and so I > swam to the nearest pontoon and hauled myself out. If re-boarding > that boat in harbour was impossible, then what chance 'out there' ? > I'd say that the lowest foothold for self-recovery needs to be at > least 4ft below the surface, and preferably 5 (for a six-footer), > unless your legs are supple enough to adopt the buddha posture (!). > > One factor that needs to be taken into account, is this tendency for > the legs (and torso) to 'fold-forward' when holding-on with arms only. > > > Colin > | 12478|12311|2007-01-11 15:26:46|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Gary, You guys have been lucky, i've been busy out of country, but back now and am working thru this thread cause i have some experience with being overboard, for a number of reasons. Gary u are entirely correct, all you have to do is sail up to the stern of a boat trying to hold position in a seaway and watch those stern steps slap hell out of the water. When coming up from under my own boat in a 12 foot sea out in the middle of nowhere, I misjudged the position of the stern of the boat and got whacked in the head, HARD! Drove me down and if not for the wetsuit I had on, I might have drowned as tho not knocked cold, I was stunned and very unclear about where I was and what in hell I was trying to do. At the time I was in essentially pro athlete condition and recovered. If it happened now, no way. Ben's idea of a lightly but strongly built hinged step wouldn't hit as hard tho, and strikes me as a very reasonable approach to the problem. I'll write more as I work thru this thread. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Over the years I've read quite a lot about MOB systems. I seem to recall > that transom ladders are either useless or deadly in anything but calm > water. When it gets rough the stern pitches up and down and tries to kill > anyone foolish enough to get close. On my old Hunter 27 we had a stern swim > ladder and recall it was quite difficult to climb if it was the slightest > bit rough. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Benjamin A. Okopnik" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 03:43:19PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > >> I'm going to put alot of thought into the ladder system I use so > >> that I can recover myself or someone else. Alot of my friends are > >> older amd I doubt they could pull themselves up over a rail. > >> Pulling one of my 200 plus pounds buddies into the boat would not be > >> easy chore. Using the boom and a strong topping lift to a winch > >> would work if the operator knew what they were doing and the wet > >> person was wearing a strong harness. > >> But I think a ladder 3' into the water would work best. Most can > >> climb a ladder if not in the water too long. If someone yelled > >> there's a shark (or ex-wife) in the water alot of my friends would > >> be up that ladder pretty fast. > > > > Please do consider the situation in which the person overboard is hurt, > > and _cannot_ pull themselves up - no matter what they were able to do > > when in top condition. I've seen people try the "drop the sail in the > > water" drill, and watched the MOB slip right out of it. > > > > One of the things I'm planning on adding to Ulysses is a fold-down stern > > platform: two big tabs on the hull plus a couple of stainless "chafe > > points", a big stainless pipe bent (or cut and welded) into a U shape > > with stops on the open ends, and some of that gray rot-proof "plastic > > wood" that's sold at Home Depot and the like. If it's just a couple of > > inches higher than the water, it's easy to roll onto even if you're hurt > > or weak, and the person on board can help you without endangering > > themselves. The fact that it can be kicked up means you don't pay any > > more per foot if you ever have to pull into a marina, and if it's made > > wide enough, it can be used as a way to keep your dinghy off the deck > > (lashed against the stern) and still have enough room to stand on. > > > >> The Police here in Vancouver have tests for officers who want to > >> join the Marine Squad. One of the tests is you have to pull yourself > >> into a life raft from the water. Some people can't do it. > > > > I don't know that it's a fair test, since it's partly strength and > > largely skill. It's one of the first things I taught my wife when she > > came aboard. > > > >> I think I will use a ladder at the stern that incorporates the > >> davits and railing and ladder together into one unit that will be > >> really strong. > >> North of Vancouver we still have some pristine areas suitable for > >> swimming so easy in and out of the water is necessary. > > > > Heh. You Canadians have antifreeze instead of blood. :) Me, if the water > > temps are below 75degF or so, I sail south. > > > > On the other hand, when I was a kid in Russia, my best friend's father > > was a "Walrus" (that was the name of the ice swimmers' club there, if I > > recall it correctly.) We'd tromp out to the middle of the lake with an > > ax, and Gena would chop out a hole for his dad to swim in; the old man > > would come up jogging in his undies, dive in, and swim around for a > > while, huffing great clouds of steam. After he got out, he'd suck down > > the half-liter bottle of vodka that he brought with him, and jog back > > home (no drying off - that would be for sissies!) That was back in the > > late 60s or early 70s; the old man is probably still around, since any > > disease would be *afraid* to live in his body. :) > > > >> Brent, have u ever thought of incorporating a transom swim > >> grid/steps into a future design? > > > > I think that it would be a _very_ cool addition to these boats. > > > > > > -- > > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > > | 12479|12311|2007-01-11 15:26:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Warm water also skews the results. Plenty of people fall into cold water, which rapidly reduces muscle strength. The water off the Farallons for example is typically much colder than the Georgia Straights in summer. Any harness, as soon as you start to pull yourself back to the boat, is attached at your hands. It makes no difference where the tether is attached to the harness, because that portion of the line is slack. As soon as you take the first purchase on the tether, all harnesses are identical, because you are no longer hanging from the harness. You are hanging from your hands. The question then becomes this, can you climb a rope, hand over hand, without using your legs? Can you do this cold? Bouncing is a seaway, fighting for air. Can you do this with the weight of one or two other people on your back? As boat speed increases, the drag force increases exponentially. It can easily exceed your body weight. Can an average person climb back? Tragically, the Farallons result showed an average person cannot Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 5:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so would skew the results. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we need him > >>to finish the second DVD. > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the one that > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He is the > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he hasn't done > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing have you > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the testing > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without testing - > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their attorney, their > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested product. > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. Wiped out, > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, no matter > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no problem. > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and money for > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like this. > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own reward. > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is "relatively" > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low freeboard, > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do get into > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your hands > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in trouble. > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat is not > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore the ocean > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors make it > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat with a > harness and tether. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12480|12311|2007-01-11 15:27:07|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:45:52AM -0000, brentswain38 wrote: > Ben > Seeing as you are the guy in the warm tropical Florida waters and we > ar in the frozen north, why don't you take out a few local swimming > enthusiasts and try out the different attachement points . Let us know > what you find out. [laugh] These "warm" waters are only warm for you Northerners right now. It's 65°F, and any locals here - including me - would freeze to death in just a few seconds. You guys would probably decide that it's too much like bath water, and lie on the beach fanning yourselves to cool off. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12481|12423|2007-01-11 15:27:10|Earl|Re: More bug stuff.|We were required to use ear drops when we had completed a dive for the Navy. Always thought this was for the harbor type work; but looking back it was everywhere we worked. Harbors were septic tanks for marine traffic back in the bad old days. Cheers Earl brentswain38 wrote: > When A a friend in Tonga got an ear infection after diving I started > washing my ears out with diluted alcohol after diving. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > >> Michael, >> >> MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where hundreds of deaths occur >> each year. It is difficult to get to the truth of the matter as >> there is a tendency for hospital administrations and politicians to >> avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google mrsa hospital deaths >> uk you should be able to see what I mean. It does not seem to be >> associated particularly with swimming. I think the main problem is >> that for many years we have relied on antibiotics to heal infection >> but now many bacteria have developed an immunity to the antibiotic >> and hospital staff are having to return to skills such as washing >> their hands and keeping the wards and patients clean. According to >> the media some are unable to cope with these new skills. When I had >> an operation recently I showered before going into the theatre. Even >> though this was on my instruction sheet the nurse seemed suprised, >> pleased and impressed. >> >> When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the Sydney Morning Herald >> that the incidence of ear nose and throat infections was higher in >> beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. They put this down to >> sewage being discharged to sea nearby. >> >> When I lived in the tropics ear infections were common and called >> coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand or coral bits in the >> water scratching the ear and letting infection in. It is also common >> for folks in coastal villages to use the beach as a toilet. >> Preventative measures were to smear vaseline into the ear before >> swimming or wash well with fresh water afterwards. This is quite >> difficult to manage if one is spending some time swimming then >> sitting about and then swimming again. My infections lasted months >> and months. Cuts and insect bites in the tropics, especially if one >> is a new arrival and have developed no immunity almost always became >> infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked after. I remember >> watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into an ulcer on my wrist; >> only its tail was still visible and it was difficult to flick it out. >> >> Regards, >> Ted >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12482|12311|2007-01-11 15:27:46|aaron riis|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|On my 26 footer, I can reach the mast with my two feet firmly on the deck. Aaron --- brentswain38 wrote: > Any tether attached to a deck length jack line which > is short enough > to stop you from reaching the water is also short > enough to stop you > from reaching the mast to reef. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the > water . We could leave > > >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the > fatality of his theory on > > >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. > > > > > > > > I've always maintained that the purpose of the > harness and tether is > to keep > > you out of the water, because I already know what > happens when you get > > dragged behind. Been there, done that. > > > > Drag any average person in a seaway at speed, > regardless of harness > design; > > they will never be able to pull themselves back to > the boat. Drag any > > average person in a seaway long enough, regardless > of harness > design, they > > will drown. > > > > I have a lot more faith in people that volunteer > themselves than > volunteer > > others. Why not volunteer yourself? Prove your > ideas work by having > > yourself towed at 7 knots. Don't leave it to me > and Alex. > > > > And why wait for summer? People sail all year > round. I've been > diving many > > times in the winter because the visibility is best > then. At depth, > it isn't > > any warmer in summer. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.| 12483|12442|2007-01-11 15:28:33|mickeyolaf|Re: Mast and Rigging|You can order grey anodised aluminum sail track from YachtTech in Sidney, BC for $6.00 a foot. It comes in 20' sections. ProTech in North Vancouver, BC is $8.00 a foot for the same stuff. ProTech wouldn't tell me where it comes from as they wanted the sale but it is probably American made. It is designed for round or oval masts metal or wood and will fit a round mast well. It is screwed down into tapped wholes every 6" alternating each side so there is a fastner every 3 inches. Doubles each side at the butts and at the bootom of the track and top. The short piece goes at the top of the mast not near the boom. You will have two 20's and a short piece depending on where u mount your boom on the mast. You should file the joints smooth where the sections butt up so the slides don't bind at the joint. If the mast is steel and painted well and the screws are 316 bedded in TEFGEL you shouldn't have gauling or corrosion. I would call YachtTech, ask them where they get it. Tell them where u are and u want to call a dealer closer to u so u don't have to pay big shipping. YachtTeck has a web site. ProTech is hard to deal with and expensive. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" wrote: > > I have been serching online for sail track that I could use if I build > a steel mast for the BS36 any recomendations? > Aaron > | 12484|12311|2007-01-11 15:35:38|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I think > that the Nazis understood this and that is why they continually > practiced lifting their arm up so that they could more easily be > rescued if they fell in the water. > > Regards, > > Ted > LOL :) seer| 12485|12311|2007-01-11 17:19:38|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of anyone ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or releasing the results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on safety harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they were recommending. Well proven means having been worn without it ever being tested. I'm sure the harness worn by the guy who was drowned by it in the farallons race was considered well tested and proven, and came with all kinds of Edsel- Enron type promises. Its obvious that the so called "inquiry " didn't enquire as the the attachement point of the tether.Inquirys are only as good as the questions asked. An example of such "Proven" systems was the number of "Proven" boats which capsized in the 79 fastnet race and stayed capsized , before anyone even began to question the efect of hull shape on ultimate stability. If you even tried to warn them before the disaster , you would have been considered loco for having the nerve to question such "Proven " designs. MY fist boat was another example, designed by an internationally well respected former Sparkman and Stevens designer , and tank tested in the Davidson Lab in New York , one of the best in the world and in use for all the twelve meter Americas cup boats of the time. It was a total abortion with absolutely no directional stability. I sailed to New Zealand with her yawing 30 degrees off course all the way. I had to reef the main so early that 90 miles a day was a good run. It did 160 miles a day to windward, but was useless downwind. In New Zealand, at the ripe old age of 24 I drasticallly modified the underbody, which was a huge improvement. So who was a wet behind the ears 24 year old amateur to question the shape arrived at by the worlds greatest experts? The improvents that resulted spoke for themselves far better than any paper qualifications or international recognition. Just like the results of Enron investments spoke far better than the advice of the worlds most respected financial advisors.Who was anyone to question them? If I had blind faith in the common knowledge of the day, you guys would still be setting up frames , forcing steel to fit where it doesn't want to and spending months doing what we now do in a few days. Sacred cows should never go unquestioned. A thigh high line down my centreline would have to get past the mainsheet, mast, tiller , etc. It's an impossibility on anytging but a flush decker .You couldn't possibly go the full length of the deck without having to clip and unclip several times, a dangerous proceedure. Down the sidedeck is the only option with a trunk cabin. Giving it enough slack to reach the mast and still reef makes it too slack to prevent you from reaching the water. I like to leave the cockpit ends inside the main hatch so I can snap on before opening the hatch. Using car seat belt for this lets me close the door on it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > >>testing? > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would consider that > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is safe by > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and copied it > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? How > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > anything about it? > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12486|12476|2007-01-13 00:39:18|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: trouble posting|seemed to get your message fine ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] trouble posting Anyone else having trouble posting messages? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12487|12311|2007-01-13 00:39:49|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|No it isn't, g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:57 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Any tether attached to a deck length jack line which is short enough to stop you from reaching the water is also short enough to stop you from reaching the mast to reef. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>Perhaps we could get Greg to be the guy in the water . We could leave > >>him in long enough to prove or disprove the fatality of his theory on > >>the advantages of the chest attachment point. > > > > I've always maintained that the purpose of the harness and tether is to keep > you out of the water, because I already know what happens when you get > dragged behind. Been there, done that. > > Drag any average person in a seaway at speed, regardless of harness design; > they will never be able to pull themselves back to the boat. Drag any > average person in a seaway long enough, regardless of harness design, they > will drown. > > I have a lot more faith in people that volunteer themselves than volunteer > others. Why not volunteer yourself? Prove your ideas work by having > yourself towed at 7 knots. Don't leave it to me and Alex. > > And why wait for summer? People sail all year round. I've been diving many > times in the winter because the visibility is best then. At depth, it isn't > any warmer in summer. > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12488|12311|2007-01-13 00:39:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Anytime anyone is in the water, we have a poly line trailing. I normally tie a boogie board to the end of the line, so we can tow you back without much force, even at speed. I used to trail a line all the time on spec. It played hell with the fishing. I'd rather have regular fish on the BBQ than a faint hope of rescue, for something easily prevented. If you fall off the Bones, catch onto the meat line and the big treble hook trailing in the water. It has pulled in plenty of billfish over the years, lots bigger than any of us. For me, that big old hook trailing behind is plenty good reason to don the harness. No telling what soft spot it might find. I agree. Parachutes harnesses tow very well under the right conditions. However, I expect you will also find lots of airmen have been dragged to their deaths under the wrong conditions. They were not designed for operation in the water, and have a 50-50 chance of killing you if you are unconscious, say if you were trailing behind and got clobbered by the stern. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Let me toss in my remaining 13 cents here. As I've just written, I'm with greg on trying to arrange the harness to keep you out of the water. On the other hand, one doesn't often use a harness 24/7 in fair weather. I also towed a 3/4 inch line with a bight pretty much any time I was out away from other boat traffic. In that instance where I got my noggin cracked, it was that stern line that I managed to catch as I tried to regain my bearings. Getting back to the boat in that seaway was a bit of a trial, much like fishing, in the slack, you pulled like hell to gain ground, then as the boat surged on the front side of the wave, you wrapped the line around something and tried not to lose the ground you just made. I think that nets below Brent's recommended solid railing is a good idea. In my case the wave took me right thru the stainless lifelines, snapping them quite easily. On boarding ladders, again, consider something that you can start climbing using your knees instead of folding up your legs with your knees in your teeth trying to get your feet on the lowest rung. Greg's comment on undesirables boarding techniques is also worth considering and planning for imho. While I was in Italy, I saw a beautiful piece of stainless work that unfolded down the starboard quarter into a series of steps that ended in a swim platform. When unfolded it was amazingly stable, and quite attractive, when folded up it took up surprisingly little room at the rail. While intricate, in utility it beat anything I've seen, before or since. As Brent and others have pointed out, the stern is a mean place in a seaway , the beam/quarter is far easier to deal with from the water. Lastly, unless you have some seriously powerful people on board, if you're anything remotely overweight, its going to take some kind of leverage, blocks/tackle, something to get you out of the water if you're in speedo's. If you're in foul weather gear in a seaway, its going to take a winch, and someone to operate it. Sooooo, some kind of a foldup ladder for swimming, and casual ingress, egress; a seriously considered harness/tether setup that keeps you on deck in heavy seas when you can't avoid going up forward; a 'last chance' towed line, only because its worth having 'one last chance' when you really need one.. (I did); and lastly, a good stout boat with solid rails and nets, designed with a good pilothouse, and a rig controlled easily from the cockpit and enough foresight to get your reefs in before you need to so you don't have to risk your life out in the weather on deck alone in the first place :) Oh, and I've been towed by a parachute across the surface of water for several hundred yards, with attachment points on the shoulder and would have to side with Brent on that issue. Don't know about the specific harnesses described in the articles Greg cited, but I wasn't drowning with the parachute shoulder points, despite having a lot of mil gear strapped on and about me at the time. I should note that the chute was skipping along parallel to and on top of the water, and not vertical if anyone was wondering. Finally, I think having something rigged up to that towed line that would depower the rig so that it rounded up if something heavy got on the line is a good idea, oh and put a loop in it so when you get to the end and need to rest, you can stick an arm or leg or anything in it so you can rest your hands. The Solution would have to be specific to each boat and rig, but the shock cord to tiller, or anything to stop the boat relatively quickly seems like a good idea. I would think it would be a really lousy feeling to be in the water watching your boat sail off over the horizon.......especially when you could have done something about that in advance. seer -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy > that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so > would skew the results. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we need him > > >>to finish the second DVD. > > > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the one that > > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He > is the > > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he hasn't done > > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing > have you > > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the > testing > > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without testing - > > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their > attorney, their > > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested > product. > > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. Wiped out, > > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, > no matter > > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no problem. > > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and money for > > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like this. > > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own > reward. > > > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is > "relatively" > > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low > freeboard, > > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do > get into > > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your > hands > > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in > trouble. > > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat > is not > > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore > the ocean > > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors make it > > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat > with a > > harness and tether. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12489|12489|2007-01-13 00:40:12|Tom|Navigation aids|Hello All I moved up to the laptop, mainly so it can be used on the boat for intertainment center, intranet and navagation. I have been looking into GPS recievers that plug into usb, lots of them on the market but I dont have a clue as to which ones will actually work and with what software, anyone played around with them or used any? any info would be appriciated. Thanks Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12490|12476|2007-01-13 00:40:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: trouble posting|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Anyone else having trouble posting messages? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Yes Tom, I posted a message but didn't see it so rewrote it and posted again. Now they are both there. I assume it is Alex checking them over and throwing water on the combustible ones? Regards, Ted| 12491|12423|2007-01-13 00:40:24|seeratlas|Re: More bug stuff.|I think HP comes in several different strength solutions. Some version should be ok as I believe it and perhaps carbolic acid are used as ear wax removers in some over the counter preparations. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Would undiluted hydrogen peroxide be too strong for one's ear? It > seems to be a good disinfectant on cuts and scrapes etc... > > Thanks > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > When A a friend in Tonga got an ear infection after diving I > started > > washing my ears out with diluted alcohol after diving. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where hundreds of deaths > occur > > > each year. It is difficult to get to the truth of the matter as > > > there is a tendency for hospital administrations and politicians > to > > > avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google mrsa hospital > deaths > > > uk you should be able to see what I mean. It does not seem to > be > > > associated particularly with swimming. I think the main problem > is > > > that for many years we have relied on antibiotics to heal > infection > > > but now many bacteria have developed an immunity to the > antibiotic > > > and hospital staff are having to return to skills such as > washing > > > their hands and keeping the wards and patients clean. According > to > > > the media some are unable to cope with these new skills. When I > had > > > an operation recently I showered before going into the theatre. > Even > > > though this was on my instruction sheet the nurse seemed > suprised, > > > pleased and impressed. > > > > > > When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the Sydney Morning > Herald > > > that the incidence of ear nose and throat infections was higher > in > > > beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. They put this > down to > > > sewage being discharged to sea nearby. > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics ear infections were common and > called > > > coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand or coral bits in > the > > > water scratching the ear and letting infection in. It is also > common > > > for folks in coastal villages to use the beach as a toilet. > > > Preventative measures were to smear vaseline into the ear before > > > swimming or wash well with fresh water afterwards. This is > quite > > > difficult to manage if one is spending some time swimming then > > > sitting about and then swimming again. My infections lasted > months > > > and months. Cuts and insect bites in the tropics, especially > if one > > > is a new arrival and have developed no immunity almost always > became > > > infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked after. I > remember > > > watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into an ulcer on my > wrist; > > > only its tail was still visible and it was difficult to flick it > out. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > | 12492|12423|2007-01-13 00:40:25|Paul Wilson|Re: More bug stuff.|Nope. I used to use it but have found that alcohol is better. I always suffered from ear infections but now I swab with 50/50 alcohol and vinegar. The alcohol is anti-bacterial and the vinegar is anti-fungal. I have never had an ear-infection since. Cheers, Paul --- Gary wrote: > Would undiluted hydrogen peroxide be too strong for > one's ear? It > seems to be a good disinfectant on cuts and scrapes > etc... > > Thanks > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > When A a friend in Tonga got an ear infection > after diving I > started > > washing my ears out with diluted alcohol after > diving. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where > hundreds of deaths > occur > > > each year. It is difficult to get to the truth > of the matter as > > > there is a tendency for hospital administrations > and politicians > to > > > avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google > mrsa hospital > deaths > > > uk you should be able to see what I mean. It > does not seem to > be > > > associated particularly with swimming. I think > the main problem > is > > > that for many years we have relied on > antibiotics to heal > infection > > > but now many bacteria have developed an immunity > to the > antibiotic > > > and hospital staff are having to return to > skills such as > washing > > > their hands and keeping the wards and patients > clean. According > to > > > the media some are unable to cope with these new > skills. When I > had > > > an operation recently I showered before going > into the theatre. > Even > > > though this was on my instruction sheet the > nurse seemed > suprised, > > > pleased and impressed. > > > > > > When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the > Sydney Morning > Herald > > > that the incidence of ear nose and throat > infections was higher > in > > > beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. > They put this > down to > > > sewage being discharged to sea nearby. > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics ear infections were > common and > called > > > coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand > or coral bits in > the > > > water scratching the ear and letting infection > in. It is also > common > > > for folks in coastal villages to use the beach > as a toilet. > > > Preventative measures were to smear vaseline > into the ear before > > > swimming or wash well with fresh water > afterwards. This is > quite > > > difficult to manage if one is spending some time > swimming then > > > sitting about and then swimming again. My > infections lasted > months > > > and months. Cuts and insect bites in the > tropics, especially > if one > > > is a new arrival and have developed no immunity > almost always > became > > > infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked > after. I > remember > > > watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into > an ulcer on my > wrist; > > > only its tail was still visible and it was > difficult to flick it > out. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.| 12493|12311|2007-01-13 00:41:08|Gary|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Good debate...as a single hander, safety is all.. I use climbers webbing (rope would do) that goes from my harness around the safety line and back to the harness and snapped on. The safety line runs along against the cabin & trunk from the cockpit to the anchor well. At the mast I have another separate climbers webbing attached which I can switch to if needed instantly with a shackle to my safety harness. Both lines keep me out of the water. Alex, ... a video of the test would be great. I volunteer to take the video.. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of anyone > ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or releasing the > results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on safety > harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they were > recommending. > Well proven means having been worn without it ever being tested. I'm > sure the harness worn by the guy who was drowned by it in the > farallons race was considered well tested and proven, and came with > all kinds of Edsel- Enron type promises. Its obvious that the so > called "inquiry " didn't enquire as the the attachement point of the > tether.Inquirys are only as good as the questions asked. > An example of such "Proven" systems was the number of "Proven" boats > which capsized in the 79 fastnet race and stayed capsized , before > anyone even began to question the efect of hull shape on ultimate > stability. If you even tried to warn them before the disaster , you > would have been considered loco for having the nerve to question such > "Proven " designs. > MY fist boat was another example, designed by an internationally well > respected former Sparkman and Stevens designer , and tank tested in > the Davidson Lab in New York , one of the best in the world and in use > for all the twelve meter Americas cup boats of the time. It was a > total abortion with absolutely no directional stability. I sailed to > New Zealand with her yawing 30 degrees off course all the way. I had > to reef the main so early that 90 miles a day was a good run. It did > 160 miles a day to windward, but was useless downwind. In New Zealand, > at the ripe old age of 24 I drasticallly modified the underbody, which > was a huge improvement. So who was a wet behind the ears 24 year old > amateur to question the shape arrived at by the worlds greatest > experts? The improvents that resulted spoke for themselves far better > than any paper qualifications or international recognition. Just like > the results of Enron investments spoke far better than the advice of > the worlds most respected financial advisors.Who was anyone to > question them? > If I had blind faith in the common knowledge of the day, you guys > would still be setting up frames , forcing steel to fit where it > doesn't want to and spending months doing what we now do in a few days. > Sacred cows should never go unquestioned. > A thigh high line down my centreline would have to get past the > mainsheet, mast, tiller , etc. It's an impossibility on anytging but a > flush decker .You couldn't possibly go the full length of the deck > without having to clip and unclip several times, a dangerous > proceedure. Down the sidedeck is the only option with a trunk cabin. > Giving it enough slack to reach the mast and still reef makes it too > slack to prevent you from reaching the water. > I like to leave the cockpit ends inside the main hatch so I can snap > on before opening the hatch. Using car seat belt for this lets me > close the door on it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > > >>testing? > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > consider that > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > safe by > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > copied it > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > How > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > anything about it? > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12494|12311|2007-01-13 00:41:18|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Sacred cows should never go unquestioned. > A thigh high line down my centreline would have to get past the > mainsheet, mast, tiller , etc. It's an impossibility on anytging but a > flush decker . welll, not exactly, Brent :) I thought I posted a photo of my old boat on here somewhere but you're right I shouldn't assume everyone knew its layout. The boat was a 54 Stan Huntingford custom, centercockpit boat, monster sloop. Dangerous as hell to sail in weather because of the rig, but a very nice hull design. Whether by choice or circumstances I ended up singlehanding her more often than not, and almost always running solo in weather, whether from other crew fatigue, or just on solo watch. There were two hookup points for my rig, one in the cockpit itself which let you travel aft to the main traveler and forward to the cabin entry, and another from a stainless guard in front of the mast back to the front of the cockpit. The transition from one to other was done in the cockpit which was pretty well protected. You are correct in that this setup would not have worked on your boat however, I'd much rather take the option of momentarily unclipping from one line and clipping on to another at my choice of timing, than having a system that would allow me over the side. As I said, the original system was set up in such a way that I had enough slack to get thrown off the beam, crash thru the lifelines, and be dragged alongside the rear quarter getting the hell beat out of me as the boat surged forward down those waves at close to 18 knots. This was a storm that resulted in a number of boats lost with all hands, and nearly me, and I'm highly motivated not to duplicate the experience. Mountain climbing/mountaineering is a process of moving methodically from one safe position to another, it doesn't bother me in the least to clip and unclip from one safe position to another on a boat especially it if keeps me ON the boat. I suppose if it really bothered someone, you could use two short tethers, such that you could hook on the new one before unhooking the other, though I would think you would have to have one hell of a good reason to justify being on deck in weather sufficiently bad to make that kind of procedure absolutely necessary. I've given substantial thought on how to layout the lines on my next boat (twin sticks); and have pretty much decided on the same centerline setup just broken up where I have to allow for the traveler run on the foremast, since the main traveler is so far aft its nearly at the stern, and the foremast traveler is just forward of the cockpit. Also since the sails on both masts are set up for a screwball kind of jiffy/slab reefing, and all lines come into the cockpit, I've tried to limit the circumstances where I have to go out unprotected as much as possible. To reef or douse my sails, all you have to do is let loose the halyards and the whole mess comes flying down into the lazyjacks to be dealt with at leisure. There is a threaded line in this reefing setup that tightens the sail down from the cockpit to keep it from flailing around in the jacks from the wind until you get around to really laying a strop on it. Granted this isn't necessary on your single stick designs but I'm pretty certain its going to work for my application. Oh, and the car seat belt idea never occurred to me but damn, that makes a lot of sense. seer You couldn't possibly go the full length of the deck > without having to clip and unclip several times, a dangerous > proceedure. Down the sidedeck is the only option with a trunk cabin. > Giving it enough slack to reach the mast and still reef makes it too > slack to prevent you from reaching the water. > I like to leave the cockpit ends inside the main hatch so I can snap > on before opening the hatch. Using car seat belt for this lets me > close the door on it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > > >>testing? > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > consider that > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > safe by > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > copied it > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > How > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > anything about it? > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12495|12438|2007-01-13 00:41:19|seeratlas|Re: Self Tending Tacking Jibs|Are you guys talking about useing a club ? or free footed self tacker? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I once tried the self tacking jib . Good for stronger winds but its > difficult to get enough sail area for lighter winds without an overlap. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > On my "never finished" 36 I've installed the track ahead of the mast > > for a self tacking jib on a car with the control led up the mast, > > back down to an exit and back to the cockpit. I have also welded > > down 12' of track on each of the side decks and 6' each side of the > > cabin top aft of the mast. I should now have infinite variation on > > the jib(s) handling theme. > > I can still use a conventional jib if I want to but the s/t jib > > seems to be a no brainer for single handing. I see the new Tarten 34 > > has one as well as a mess of other new boats including some high end > > ones. > > I also now can use an inner self tacking staysail and a regular jib > > on furling which should make sail reduction easy. > > I have no idea how the self tacking jib will perform and whether > > there will be enough sail area and whether the boat will balance but > > testing it out will be half the fun? I'd like to cut jib(s) high so > > as to increase visibility. > > At least with all of that hardware on the deck and sheets and lines > > running everwhere I 'll look like I know what I'm doing. > > The first Swain 36 racing motorsailor. > > Anybody ever dealt with UK sailmakers? I was thinking of having them > > build my first set. > > > | 12496|12311|2007-01-13 00:41:22|khooper_fboats|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy of a proven design. Maybe I was unclear. I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the water but you will surely go in the boat. Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it wrong. > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > >>testing? > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would consider that > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is safe by > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and copied it > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? How > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > anything about it? > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12497|12311|2007-01-13 00:41:48|Michael Casling|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses/ Temperature|Air temperature this morning is Zero F, water temperature is 34 and going down. There is no such thing as warm water in Canada, even in the summer. I think we hit 74F in a couple of select spots in the lake. Often colder than that at the West Coast. Years ago I managed to get cracked eardrums from too much cold water while surfing. It is a very short season if you sail a dinghy. Locally we race from the first week of March to the first week of November. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin A. Okopnik" wrote: > [laugh] These "warm" waters are only warm for you Northerners right now. > It's 65°F, and any locals here - including me - would freeze to death in > just a few seconds. You guys would probably decide that it's too much > like bath water, and lie on the beach fanning yourselves to cool off. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12498|12498|2007-01-13 00:42:43|Aaron|A Safe wind turbine|I found this and thought it might be a safer design for boats. http://www.hushturbine.com/hume_turbine_images.php| 12499|12311|2007-01-13 00:43:35|jim dorey|Re: fuel|Jim Baltaxe wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > The big issue would be what detergents and additives are in the oil. > There could well be some compounds which could get very nasty if burned, > both to the environment and to the engine itself. using exhaust heat to make producer gas from it would probably work quite well, then you route it to the engine like it was propane.| 12500|12311|2007-01-13 00:45:31|Michael Casling|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses/testing|I first read the Skenes book in the early eighties and had serious doubts about the ability of the design you mention. It just did not fit with what I had experienced. Especially their version of rudder placement. It is a credit to you that you recognised the problem and made changes. I still like the lighter weight boats but that is just a personal preference, and always subject to review. I also agree that many products hit the market with limited testing in the real world enviroment. An example might be the changing colours of life jackets allowed over the years. I do not agree with the Sail and Power Squadron method of retrieving MOB. I would prefer to stop the boat as quickly as possible. We try and get the boats to steer straight, so I think a line to the tiller would be a good idea. I do not agree that the bank balance of contributor will effect their thoughts on a subject like safety. I will be studying harnesses at this years Boat Show. Mine is getting old. Michael In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of anyone > ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or releasing the > results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on safety > harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they were > recommending. > Well proven means having been worn without it ever being tested. > Brent| 12501|12290|2007-01-13 00:46:01|jim dorey|Re: biodiesel|seeratlas wrote: > > > Brent, Shane, > When I was a kid my father's company played around with trying to > create a bio solution to oil spills, mainly breeding a specific > bacteria to eat the stuff. What they found was that it starts off > great but then dies out as what's going on is like burning the fuel > off, just using a living organism to oxidize it as opposed to fire, at > some point the bacteria couldn't get the oxygen they needed and the > whole process slowed to a near standstill. > I have wondered whether more numerous smaller tanks filled full, would > retard the 'bug' by limiting its oxygen supply, as opposed to the > larger partially filled tanks, or maybe pumping some co2 in or > something :) > > just brainstorming LOL > seer maybe use oxygen concentrator tech to collect nitrogen, it'd take a compressor that can do 20lbs, and a tank of synthetic zeolyte, a few valves, pressure meter, nothin big. with no engine a canister of baking soda and a way of letting vinegar dribble in, a tube to feed the co2 to the tank would work.| 12502|12423|2007-01-13 00:47:03|Thomas Martin|Re: More bug stuff.|Years ago, while spending a stormy week on Cuttyhunk Is., boredom set in. Some genius discovered a fun pass time of pouring Hydrogen Peroxide in the ear and enjoying all the little bubbles that where created. Try it yourself! we all still can hear just fine. --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12503|12311|2007-01-13 15:05:27|brentswain38|Re: fuel|I've heard of many people throwing used engine oil in the fuel with no problems so I don't see why it wouldn't work for tranny oil. I'd let the sediments settle out for a few days. Your filtres should stop it, but why plug the filtres prematurely when its so easy to simply let it settle out. The oil will eventually settle to clear with the sediments in the bottom. Those of us with wood stoves simply use it for fire starter. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hey Steve > I wouldnt recomend putting used oil in for fuel could reak havok on things, > seals in injection pump fuel pump ect. + taking a chance of carboning up the > rings > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve rankin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:56 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: fuel > > > > > > I just changed hydraulic oil in my system to a heavier oil. Any reason I > > shouldnt dump the 15 gal of hydraulic oil into my fuel tank and burn it? > > Obviously it goes thru major filtering before it is used. /fact is, I 've > > often wondered why one couldnt dispose of used engine oil this way as > > well. I filter my fuel using toilet paper filters which are filtering to 1 > > micron. > > Steve > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 12504|12311|2007-01-13 15:11:47|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Put a bit of monofilament and a meat hook on the end of the poly man overboard line. I've caught fish that way.You have to watch it for action , tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Anytime anyone is in the water, we have a poly line trailing. I normally > tie a boogie board to the end of the line, so we can tow you back without > much force, even at speed. I used to trail a line all the time on spec. > It played hell with the fishing. I'd rather have regular fish on the BBQ > than a faint hope of rescue, for something easily prevented. > > > > If you fall off the Bones, catch onto the meat line and the big treble hook > trailing in the water. It has pulled in plenty of billfish over the years, > lots bigger than any of us. For me, that big old hook trailing behind is > plenty good reason to don the harness. No telling what soft spot it might > find. > > > > I agree. Parachutes harnesses tow very well under the right conditions. > However, I expect you will also find lots of airmen have been dragged to > their deaths under the wrong conditions. They were not designed for > operation in the water, and have a 50-50 chance of killing you if you are > unconscious, say if you were trailing behind and got clobbered by the stern. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:16 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > Let me toss in my remaining 13 cents here. As I've just written, I'm > with greg on trying to arrange the harness to keep you out of the > water. On the other hand, one doesn't often use a harness 24/7 in fair > weather. I also towed a 3/4 inch line with a bight pretty much any > time I was out away from other boat traffic. In that instance where I > got my noggin cracked, it was that stern line that I managed to catch > as I tried to regain my bearings. Getting back to the boat in that > seaway was a bit of a trial, much like fishing, in the slack, you > pulled like hell to gain ground, then as the boat surged on the front > side of the wave, you wrapped the line around something and tried not > to lose the ground you just made. > > I think that nets below Brent's recommended solid railing is a good > idea. In my case the wave took me right thru the stainless lifelines, > snapping them quite easily. > > On boarding ladders, again, consider something that you can start > climbing using your knees instead of folding up your legs with your > knees in your teeth trying to get your feet on the lowest rung. > > Greg's comment on undesirables boarding techniques is also worth > considering and planning for imho. > > While I was in Italy, I saw a beautiful piece of stainless work that > unfolded down the starboard quarter into a series of steps that ended > in a swim platform. When unfolded it was amazingly stable, and quite > attractive, when folded up it took up surprisingly little room at the > rail. While intricate, in utility it beat anything I've seen, before > or since. As Brent and others have pointed out, the stern is a mean > place in a seaway , the beam/quarter is far easier to deal with from > the water. > > Lastly, unless you have some seriously powerful people on board, if > you're anything remotely overweight, its going to take some kind of > leverage, blocks/tackle, something to get you out of the water if > you're in speedo's. If you're in foul weather gear in a seaway, its > going to take a winch, and someone to operate it. > > Sooooo, some kind of a foldup ladder for swimming, and casual ingress, > egress; a seriously considered harness/tether setup that keeps you on > deck in heavy seas when you can't avoid going up forward; a 'last > chance' towed line, only because its worth having 'one last chance' > when you really need one.. (I did); and lastly, a good stout boat with > solid rails and nets, designed with a good pilothouse, and a rig > controlled easily from the cockpit and enough foresight to get your > reefs in before you need to so you don't have to risk your life out in > the weather on deck alone in the first place :) > > Oh, and I've been towed by a parachute across the surface of water for > several hundred yards, with attachment points on the shoulder and > would have to side with Brent on that issue. Don't know about the > specific harnesses described in the articles Greg cited, but I wasn't > drowning with the parachute shoulder points, despite having a lot of > mil gear strapped on and about me at the time. I should note that the > chute was skipping along parallel to and on top of the water, and not > vertical if anyone was wondering. > > Finally, I think having something rigged up to that towed line that > would depower the rig so that it rounded up if something heavy got on > the line is a good idea, oh and put a loop in it so when you get to > the end and need to rest, you can stick an arm or leg or anything in > it so you can rest your hands. The Solution would have to be specific > to each boat and rig, but the shock cord to tiller, or anything to > stop the boat relatively quickly seems like a good idea. I would think > it would be a really lousy feeling to be in the water watching your > boat sail off over the horizon.......especially when you could have > done something about that in advance. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy > > that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so > > would skew the results. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we > need him > > > >>to finish the second DVD. > > > > > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the > one that > > > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He > > is the > > > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he > hasn't done > > > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > > > > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing > > have you > > > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the > > testing > > > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > > > > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without > testing - > > > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their > > attorney, their > > > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested > > product. > > > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. > Wiped out, > > > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > > > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > > > > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, > > no matter > > > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no > problem. > > > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and > money for > > > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like > this. > > > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own > > reward. > > > > > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is > > "relatively" > > > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > > > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low > > freeboard, > > > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do > > get into > > > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your > > hands > > > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > > > > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in > > trouble. > > > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat > > is not > > > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore > > the ocean > > > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors > make it > > > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat > > with a > > > harness and tether. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12505|12311|2007-01-13 15:29:57|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|All my designs have been tested by at least one Pacific Crossing most have done many . Several 36 footers have done circumnavigations . One pounded for weeks in 8 ft Baja surf on the west coast of the Baja,and was winched off thru 8 ft surf pounding on the hard packed sand every wave for 1/4 mile , no problems. It hit a steel barge at 14 knots and a log boom at the same speed with no dammage. Another doing a circumnavigation pounded across 200 meters of Fijian coral reef in big surf and was pulled back over the reef with no real damamge except for all the underwater paint being knocked off. It later collided with a freighter in Gibralter with only cosmetic dammage . One 26 footer did a single season passage thru the Northwest Passage with no dammage. One 36 footer pouided on the south end of Hornby Island overnight in a gale with 100 miles of fetch, no dammage. Yes all my designs have been well tested , far more so than 90% of the designs out there. rent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy > of a proven design. > > Maybe I was unclear. > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it > wrong. > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > > >>testing? > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > consider that > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > safe by > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > copied it > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > How > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > anything about it? > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12506|12311|2007-01-13 15:30:23|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses/testing|Rudder position was a major part of the probl;em hull shape waas another . The section on balance in my book explains this --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > I first read the Skenes book in the early eighties and had serious > doubts about the ability of the design you mention. It just did not > fit with what I had experienced. Especially their version of rudder > placement. It is a credit to you that you recognised the problem and > made changes. I still like the lighter weight boats but that is just > a personal preference, and always subject to review. > I also agree that many products hit the market with limited testing > in the real world enviroment. > An example might be the changing colours of life jackets allowed over > the years. I do not agree with the Sail and Power Squadron method of > retrieving MOB. I would prefer to stop the boat as quickly as > possible. We try and get the boats to steer straight, so I think a > line to the tiller would be a good idea. > I do not agree that the bank balance of contributor will effect their > thoughts on a subject like safety. I will be studying harnesses at > this years Boat Show. Mine is getting old. > > Michael > > > In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of anyone > > ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or releasing > the > > results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on safety > > harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they were > > recommending. > > Well proven means having been worn without it ever being tested. > > Brent > | 12507|12311|2007-01-13 16:01:21|Earl|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Using 2 umbilicals for connecting to the tether would allow a "make before break" operation. In this way, even with bad timing (which happens under stress and fatigue), you'd still be connected.... Cheers Earl seeratlas wrote: > the option of > momentarily unclipping from one line and clipping on to another at my > choice of timing, than having a system that would allow me over the > side. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12508|12476|2007-01-13 16:03:10|Michael Casling|Re: trouble posting|My last post took about 24 hours to show up. I believe Yahoo has also changed the spam filters and that is also slowing things. Sometimes I do not receive my own posts, so lately I have been checking this site rather than waiting for them to arrive. A bit like waiting for spring. All my projects are stalled until it warms up a bit. The good news is I have found the parts I need for my OBM for the small boat. Michael -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Anyone else having trouble posting messages? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12509|12509|2007-01-13 16:04:00|whec651972|concerned about corrosion under 1x1 angle welded to hull plate|thinking about building a bs26 but in the picture I see 1" angle welded to the hull plate how is this cleaned and coated so rust won't start under the angle iron. Thanks| 12510|12311|2007-01-13 16:08:53|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I trail the line when I'm alone. So far its "one for one" :) Can't speak for the harness, there are several types, this one was one of the old "T-10" types as opposed to the flying bedsheets in use now. Was just observing that the hooks on the shoulders didn't drive me under or submarine me. As for fishing :) I have a lot of gear so I tend to use tackle geared towards what I'm looking for and when I'm 'fishing", I'm REALLY fishing :) hehehe, but then I don't have your time on the water and wasn't feeding so many :) My Huntingford had a compact aft cockpit with a walk thru transom onto the swim deck that hit me in the head, so fishing for pretty much anything from mackerel, to blue marlin was a pure pleasure :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Anytime anyone is in the water, we have a poly line trailing. I normally > tie a boogie board to the end of the line, so we can tow you back without > much force, even at speed. I used to trail a line all the time on spec. > It played hell with the fishing. I'd rather have regular fish on the BBQ > than a faint hope of rescue, for something easily prevented. > > > > If you fall off the Bones, catch onto the meat line and the big treble hook > trailing in the water. It has pulled in plenty of billfish over the years, > lots bigger than any of us. For me, that big old hook trailing behind is > plenty good reason to don the harness. No telling what soft spot it might > find. > > > > I agree. Parachutes harnesses tow very well under the right conditions. > However, I expect you will also find lots of airmen have been dragged to > their deaths under the wrong conditions. They were not designed for > operation in the water, and have a 50-50 chance of killing you if you are > unconscious, say if you were trailing behind and got clobbered by the stern. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:16 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > Let me toss in my remaining 13 cents here. As I've just written, I'm > with greg on trying to arrange the harness to keep you out of the > water. On the other hand, one doesn't often use a harness 24/7 in fair > weather. I also towed a 3/4 inch line with a bight pretty much any > time I was out away from other boat traffic. In that instance where I > got my noggin cracked, it was that stern line that I managed to catch > as I tried to regain my bearings. Getting back to the boat in that > seaway was a bit of a trial, much like fishing, in the slack, you > pulled like hell to gain ground, then as the boat surged on the front > side of the wave, you wrapped the line around something and tried not > to lose the ground you just made. > > I think that nets below Brent's recommended solid railing is a good > idea. In my case the wave took me right thru the stainless lifelines, > snapping them quite easily. > > On boarding ladders, again, consider something that you can start > climbing using your knees instead of folding up your legs with your > knees in your teeth trying to get your feet on the lowest rung. > > Greg's comment on undesirables boarding techniques is also worth > considering and planning for imho. > > While I was in Italy, I saw a beautiful piece of stainless work that > unfolded down the starboard quarter into a series of steps that ended > in a swim platform. When unfolded it was amazingly stable, and quite > attractive, when folded up it took up surprisingly little room at the > rail. While intricate, in utility it beat anything I've seen, before > or since. As Brent and others have pointed out, the stern is a mean > place in a seaway , the beam/quarter is far easier to deal with from > the water. > > Lastly, unless you have some seriously powerful people on board, if > you're anything remotely overweight, its going to take some kind of > leverage, blocks/tackle, something to get you out of the water if > you're in speedo's. If you're in foul weather gear in a seaway, its > going to take a winch, and someone to operate it. > > Sooooo, some kind of a foldup ladder for swimming, and casual ingress, > egress; a seriously considered harness/tether setup that keeps you on > deck in heavy seas when you can't avoid going up forward; a 'last > chance' towed line, only because its worth having 'one last chance' > when you really need one.. (I did); and lastly, a good stout boat with > solid rails and nets, designed with a good pilothouse, and a rig > controlled easily from the cockpit and enough foresight to get your > reefs in before you need to so you don't have to risk your life out in > the weather on deck alone in the first place :) > > Oh, and I've been towed by a parachute across the surface of water for > several hundred yards, with attachment points on the shoulder and > would have to side with Brent on that issue. Don't know about the > specific harnesses described in the articles Greg cited, but I wasn't > drowning with the parachute shoulder points, despite having a lot of > mil gear strapped on and about me at the time. I should note that the > chute was skipping along parallel to and on top of the water, and not > vertical if anyone was wondering. > > Finally, I think having something rigged up to that towed line that > would depower the rig so that it rounded up if something heavy got on > the line is a good idea, oh and put a loop in it so when you get to > the end and need to rest, you can stick an arm or leg or anything in > it so you can rest your hands. The Solution would have to be specific > to each boat and rig, but the shock cord to tiller, or anything to > stop the boat relatively quickly seems like a good idea. I would think > it would be a really lousy feeling to be in the water watching your > boat sail off over the horizon.......especially when you could have > done something about that in advance. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy > > that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so > > would skew the results. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we > need him > > > >>to finish the second DVD. > > > > > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the > one that > > > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He > > is the > > > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he > hasn't done > > > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > > > > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing > > have you > > > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the > > testing > > > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > > > > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without > testing - > > > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their > > attorney, their > > > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested > > product. > > > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. > Wiped out, > > > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > > > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > > > > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, > > no matter > > > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no > problem. > > > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and > money for > > > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like > this. > > > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own > > reward. > > > > > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is > > "relatively" > > > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > > > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low > > freeboard, > > > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do > > get into > > > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your > > hands > > > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > > > > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in > > trouble. > > > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat > > is not > > > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore > > the ocean > > > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors > make it > > > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat > > with a > > > harness and tether. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12511|12311|2007-01-13 17:10:50|khooper_fboats|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Nice to hear from you, Brent, but I was not talking to you. I was talking to our good friend Mr. Eliot. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > All my designs have been tested by at least one Pacific Crossing most > have done many . Several 36 footers have done circumnavigations . One > pounded for weeks in 8 ft Baja surf on the west coast of the Baja,and > was winched off thru 8 ft surf pounding on the hard packed sand every > wave for 1/4 mile , no problems. It hit a steel barge at 14 knots and > a log boom at the same speed with no dammage. Another doing a > circumnavigation pounded across 200 meters of Fijian coral reef in big > surf and was pulled back over the reef with no real damamge except for > all the underwater paint being knocked off. It later collided with a > freighter in Gibralter with only cosmetic dammage . > One 26 footer did a single season passage thru the Northwest Passage > with no dammage. One 36 footer pouided on the south end of Hornby > Island overnight in a gale with 100 miles of fetch, no dammage. > Yes all my designs have been well tested , far more so than 90% of > the designs out there. > rent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy > > of a proven design. > > > > Maybe I was unclear. > > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly > > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the > > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his > > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and > indeed > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that > seem to > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > > > >>testing? > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > consider that > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > safe by > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > > copied it > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > > How > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > > anything about it? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 12512|12509|2007-01-13 17:13:04|Tom|Re: concerned about corrosion under 1x1 angle welded to hull plate|Most of it can be sandblasted with a small nozzle, what I cant get I guess I will have to use sand paper and wire brush. If I build another one I will use galvanized angles Tom PS I have seen some smaller sandblast nozzles that shoot out the side at about 45% . I think I will make one and see how it works when the weather warms up a bit here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "whec651972" To: Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 12:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] concerned about corrosion under 1x1 angle welded to hull plate > thinking about building a bs26 but in the picture I see 1" angle > welded to the hull plate how is this cleaned and coated so rust won't > start under the angle iron. > Thanks > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12513|12311|2007-01-13 20:35:16|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|There is a simple solution for people unable to lead the jack lines to the centerline at the stern. Lead the aft end of the jack lines outboard around a stanchion, and then back to a stout ring on the tiller. In this way if you do fall in, the jack line on that side will pull tight; pulling the tiller hard over towards the stanchion and the boat will tack or jibe (usually tack), bringing the sails aback. With the way off the boat, you can pull yourself back to the boat and board. As a bonus, you can then steer the boat from the jack lines when working forward. If tether does not prevent you from falling in, and you do not have a simple means to stop the boat, then you will drown if the boat has any speed on. There is no use wearing a harness in this case, because it only provides a false sense of security. A seat belt is not an ideal tether. It is very difficult to pull yourself up a wet piece of webbing. As an alternative, attach the ratchet wind-up mechanism from a seatbelt to the shoulders of your harness. In this way if you do fall in, the ratchet will automatically wind you back aboard, as though you never left. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12514|12311|2007-01-14 04:46:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Damn we get no respect here in NJ! The Davidson Labs are at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken NEW JERSEY. I know because I went to school there. Those bastards also claim the Statue of Liberty, which is in NEW JERSEY. McMaster Carr refers to their New York office, located in Dayton NEW JERSEY 40 miles from New York! Driving home from Maryland on Interstate 95 all the signs say New York 150 miles, New York 100 miles. The ONLY sign in 250 miles that mentions NEW JERSEY is the one at the Delaware Memorial Bridge which actually goes into NEW JERSEY! Yeah New York is up that way someplace, but guess what? You can't get there without going through NEW JERSEY! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of anyone ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or releasing the results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on safety harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they were recommending. Well proven means having been worn without it ever being tested. I'm sure the harness worn by the guy who was drowned by it in the farallons race was considered well tested and proven, and came with all kinds of Edsel- Enron type promises. Its obvious that the so called "inquiry " didn't enquire as the the attachement point of the tether.Inquirys are only as good as the questions asked. An example of such "Proven" systems was the number of "Proven" boats which capsized in the 79 fastnet race and stayed capsized , before anyone even began to question the efect of hull shape on ultimate stability. If you even tried to warn them before the disaster , you would have been considered loco for having the nerve to question such "Proven " designs. MY fist boat was another example, designed by an internationally well respected former Sparkman and Stevens designer , and tank tested in the Davidson Lab in New York , one of the best in the world and in use for all the twelve meter Americas cup boats of the time. It was a total abortion with absolutely no directional stability. I sailed to New Zealand with her yawing 30 degrees off course all the way. I had to reef the main so early that 90 miles a day was a good run. It did 160 miles a day to windward, but was useless downwind. In New Zealand, at the ripe old age of 24 I drasticallly modified the underbody, which was a huge improvement. So who was a wet behind the ears 24 year old amateur to question the shape arrived at by the worlds greatest experts? The improvents that resulted spoke for themselves far better than any paper qualifications or international recognition. Just like the results of Enron investments spoke far better than the advice of the worlds most respected financial advisors.Who was anyone to question them? If I had blind faith in the common knowledge of the day, you guys would still be setting up frames , forcing steel to fit where it doesn't want to and spending months doing what we now do in a few days. Sacred cows should never go unquestioned. A thigh high line down my centreline would have to get past the mainsheet, mast, tiller , etc. It's an impossibility on anytging but a flush decker .You couldn't possibly go the full length of the deck without having to clip and unclip several times, a dangerous proceedure. Down the sidedeck is the only option with a trunk cabin. Giving it enough slack to reach the mast and still reef makes it too slack to prevent you from reaching the water. I like to leave the cockpit ends inside the main hatch so I can snap on before opening the hatch. Using car seat belt for this lets me close the door on it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and indeed > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that seem to > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > >>testing? > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would consider that > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is safe by > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and copied it > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? How > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > anything about it? > > Greg Elliott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12515|12311|2007-01-14 04:48:23|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Good point. seer- -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Earl wrote: > > Using 2 umbilicals for connecting to the tether would allow a "make > before break" operation. In this way, even with bad timing (which > happens under stress and fatigue), you'd still be connected.... > > Cheers > Earl > > seeratlas wrote: > > the option of > > momentarily unclipping from one line and clipping on to another at my > > choice of timing, than having a system that would allow me over the > > side. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12516|12516|2007-01-14 17:25:37|Gerd|On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been working on for some months now: http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. enjoy ;-) Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 12517|12517|2007-01-14 17:29:05|Gary|Roll Over|Lots of discussion on other boards about Ken Barnes roll over and dismasting of his steel boat off coast of Chile. Controversy centers around issue of whether he had sufficient boat resources remaining to jury rig or otherwise to get his boat to port. My question is on prevention as in Hecate Str last summer in 25 knots and a following sea both tiller pilot and windvane did not keep my boat on course. I had a partially furled headsail up and was skudding along briskly but had to remain in cockpit and manually steer. Ken Barnes had much more severe conditions but again, the problem seems to be a following sea and preventing a broach. I felt that without being manually in the cockpit manually on the rudder, I may have broached. I suppose I could have trailed a droque but I would appreciate comments on high winds and following seas. Thanks... Gary| 12518|12311|2007-01-14 17:30:12|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Your meaning was clear. You find it disturbing that I am presenting ideas about safety that are different than your own beliefs. You are frustrated because you cannot argue against these ideas on merit because they are supported by evidence and experience. Thus, you want to argue that two wrongs make a right. That origami is perfect, thus one must be perfect before they can question origami. This is no different than arguing religion. In some cultures it is a death to suggest that Mohammed is any less than perfect. Not so long ago, to suggest Christ was less than perfect was sacrilege, punishable by death. On this site, some recent posting have suggested that I should be killed, or people that think like me should have been killed, because of our ideas, because of what we believe. The number one safety device aboard any boat is experience. We don't sell plans to people without experience. We recommend they buy a boat first, to gain experience. We were shouted down when we tried to present this concept to the group, to the point where Alex had to pull the plug. The message is clear. Question any sacred cows, except the sacred cows of origami. Greg Elliott > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy > > of a proven design. > > > > Maybe I was unclear. > > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly > > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the > > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his > > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and > indeed > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that > seem to > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > > > >>testing? > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > consider that > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > safe by > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > > copied it > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > > How > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > > anything about it? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12519|12311|2007-01-14 17:30:48|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: fuel|> I wouldnt recomend putting used oil in for fuel could reak havok on things, > seals in injection pump fuel pump ect. + taking a chance of carboning up the > rings ATF is a very effective engine cleaner. It is relabeled and sold as such in at least one commercial product. Use it sparingly because engine damage can result if you run the engine hard while the accumulated dirt and sludge is being stripped from the engine. Greg Elliott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12520|12311|2007-01-14 17:31:51|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Offshore you need wire leaders. Lots of surface predators, especially in the tropics, slice through mono-filament in an instant. You can't keep up with the loss of hooks and lures. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 12:08 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses Put a bit of monofilament and a meat hook on the end of the poly man overboard line. I've caught fish that way.You have to watch it for action , tho. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Anytime anyone is in the water, we have a poly line trailing. I normally > tie a boogie board to the end of the line, so we can tow you back without > much force, even at speed. I used to trail a line all the time on spec. > It played hell with the fishing. I'd rather have regular fish on the BBQ > than a faint hope of rescue, for something easily prevented. > > > > If you fall off the Bones, catch onto the meat line and the big treble hook > trailing in the water. It has pulled in plenty of billfish over the years, > lots bigger than any of us. For me, that big old hook trailing behind is > plenty good reason to don the harness. No telling what soft spot it might > find. > > > > I agree. Parachutes harnesses tow very well under the right conditions. > However, I expect you will also find lots of airmen have been dragged to > their deaths under the wrong conditions. They were not designed for > operation in the water, and have a 50-50 chance of killing you if you are > unconscious, say if you were trailing behind and got clobbered by the stern. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of seeratlas > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:16 PM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > > > Let me toss in my remaining 13 cents here. As I've just written, I'm > with greg on trying to arrange the harness to keep you out of the > water. On the other hand, one doesn't often use a harness 24/7 in fair > weather. I also towed a 3/4 inch line with a bight pretty much any > time I was out away from other boat traffic. In that instance where I > got my noggin cracked, it was that stern line that I managed to catch > as I tried to regain my bearings. Getting back to the boat in that > seaway was a bit of a trial, much like fishing, in the slack, you > pulled like hell to gain ground, then as the boat surged on the front > side of the wave, you wrapped the line around something and tried not > to lose the ground you just made. > > I think that nets below Brent's recommended solid railing is a good > idea. In my case the wave took me right thru the stainless lifelines, > snapping them quite easily. > > On boarding ladders, again, consider something that you can start > climbing using your knees instead of folding up your legs with your > knees in your teeth trying to get your feet on the lowest rung. > > Greg's comment on undesirables boarding techniques is also worth > considering and planning for imho. > > While I was in Italy, I saw a beautiful piece of stainless work that > unfolded down the starboard quarter into a series of steps that ended > in a swim platform. When unfolded it was amazingly stable, and quite > attractive, when folded up it took up surprisingly little room at the > rail. While intricate, in utility it beat anything I've seen, before > or since. As Brent and others have pointed out, the stern is a mean > place in a seaway , the beam/quarter is far easier to deal with from > the water. > > Lastly, unless you have some seriously powerful people on board, if > you're anything remotely overweight, its going to take some kind of > leverage, blocks/tackle, something to get you out of the water if > you're in speedo's. If you're in foul weather gear in a seaway, its > going to take a winch, and someone to operate it. > > Sooooo, some kind of a foldup ladder for swimming, and casual ingress, > egress; a seriously considered harness/tether setup that keeps you on > deck in heavy seas when you can't avoid going up forward; a 'last > chance' towed line, only because its worth having 'one last chance' > when you really need one.. (I did); and lastly, a good stout boat with > solid rails and nets, designed with a good pilothouse, and a rig > controlled easily from the cockpit and enough foresight to get your > reefs in before you need to so you don't have to risk your life out in > the weather on deck alone in the first place :) > > Oh, and I've been towed by a parachute across the surface of water for > several hundred yards, with attachment points on the shoulder and > would have to side with Brent on that issue. Don't know about the > specific harnesses described in the articles Greg cited, but I wasn't > drowning with the parachute shoulder points, despite having a lot of > mil gear strapped on and about me at the time. I should note that the > chute was skipping along parallel to and on top of the water, and not > vertical if anyone was wondering. > > Finally, I think having something rigged up to that towed line that > would depower the rig so that it rounded up if something heavy got on > the line is a good idea, oh and put a loop in it so when you get to > the end and need to rest, you can stick an arm or leg or anything in > it so you can rest your hands. The Solution would have to be specific > to each boat and rig, but the shock cord to tiller, or anything to > stop the boat relatively quickly seems like a good idea. I would think > it would be a really lousy feeling to be in the water watching your > boat sail off over the horizon.......especially when you could have > done something about that in advance. > > seer > > -- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, > "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I'd be happy to try it when it warms up a bit. A wetsuit is bouyancy > > that you wouldn't be likely to have on when falling overboard, so > > would skew the results. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > >>Please do not drown Alex towing him behind a boat because we > need him > > > >>to finish the second DVD. > > > > > > Alex should not be the guy towed behind the boat. Brent is the > one that > > > says it is a safe thing to do, so long as you use his harness. He > > is the > > > one that needs to test this, to make sure it is safe. If he > hasn't done > > > this, then it is just plain irresponsible to claim that it is safe. > > > > > > Brent, what testing have you done of your harness? How much towing > > have you > > > done, under which conditions, what were the controls to ensure the > > testing > > > was valid and representative of actual conditions? > > > > > > Any manufacturer that did this - sold safety equipment without > testing - > > > would get their ass sued off if there was a problem. Their > > attorney, their > > > insurance carriers, neither would allow them to release an untested > > product. > > > The officers of the company could be held personally liable. > Wiped out, > > > bankrupt. Shareholders left with nothing. Anyone that tells you > > > manufacturers don't test their products has never worked in industry. > > > > > > Obviously, if you have no assets, you can make any claim you want, > > no matter > > > how dangerous or unsubstantiated. Someone dies as a result, no > problem. > > > You don't have any asserts so it would be a waste of time and > money for > > > anyone to come after you. The police don't bother with cases like > this. > > > They have better things to do. They figure stupidity is its own > > reward. > > > > > > It is never safe to tow anyone behind a boat. Water skiing is > > "relatively" > > > safe, because you have a "dead mans" release, life jacket, wet suit, a > > > spotter, calm waters, and a boat purpose made for towing - low > > freeboard, > > > highly maneuverable, with tons of power for the weight. If you do > > get into > > > trouble, the boat can come around and pull you out in seconds. Your > > hands > > > automatically let go of the rope if you are in trouble. > > > > > > A safety harness is not like this. It doesn't care if you are in > > trouble. > > > It will keep towing you along, long after it kills you. A sailboat > > is not > > > maneuverable. It cannot easily come about to save you. Offshore > > the ocean > > > is not calm. Sailors rarely wear wet suits. All these factors > make it > > > extremely dangerous to go into the water, even attached to the boat > > with a > > > harness and tether. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12521|12311|2007-01-14 18:36:14|Ellen Cahill|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Hey, Would anyone be able to get my address of the mailing list. My dad was using it but stoped now. Thanks Ellen ge@... wrote: Your meaning was clear. You find it disturbing that I am presenting ideas about safety that are different than your own beliefs. You are frustrated because you cannot argue against these ideas on merit because they are supported by evidence and experience. Thus, you want to argue that two wrongs make a right. That origami is perfect, thus one must be perfect before they can question origami. This is no different than arguing religion. In some cultures it is a death to suggest that Mohammed is any less than perfect. Not so long ago, to suggest Christ was less than perfect was sacrilege, punishable by death. On this site, some recent posting have suggested that I should be killed, or people that think like me should have been killed, because of our ideas, because of what we believe. The number one safety device aboard any boat is experience. We don't sell plans to people without experience. We recommend they buy a boat first, to gain experience. We were shouted down when we tried to present this concept to the group, to the point where Alex had to pull the plug. The message is clear. Question any sacred cows, except the sacred cows of origami. Greg Elliott > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy > > of a proven design. > > > > Maybe I was unclear. > > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly > > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the > > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his > > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and > indeed > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not even > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because they are > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that > seem to > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of empirical > > > >>testing? > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > consider that > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > safe by > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > > copied it > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > > How > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > > anything about it? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12522|12517|2007-01-14 18:36:38|edward_stoneuk|Re: Roll Over|Gary, We are making a Jordan series drogue for these eventualities. My only experience of confusion in a following sea was sailing back from France with a wind right on the tail and a reefed main with a preventer on when the wind got the other side of the main and the boat slewed around 180° or so, which made us all wonder what had happened and check the compass. Of the other two boats sailing with us, neither of which had a preventer one broke its boom and the other split its main. Regards, Ted| 12523|12311|2007-01-15 17:32:59|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|It's sad that many well known designers never cruise at all let alone cruise on a limited budget. Check how many sea miles your designer has cruised , and how many boats your designer has built with his own hands to determine his qualifications. All, the paper credentials in the world is no substitute for experience.Keep a child well supplied with crutches and he will never learn to walk without them. A steady supply of rich clients are like crutches to a designer. Somerone who has never had anything but rich clients is totally unqualified to design a boat for someone who is not rich , nor to give advice to someone who is not rich. Having been broke , and having gone cruising on a shoestring budget is the only way to qualify. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Your meaning was clear. You find it disturbing that I am presenting ideas > about safety that are different than your own beliefs. You are frustrated > because you cannot argue against these ideas on merit because they are > supported by evidence and experience. Thus, you want to argue that two > wrongs make a right. That origami is perfect, thus one must be perfect > before they can question origami. > > This is no different than arguing religion. In some cultures it is a death > to suggest that Mohammed is any less than perfect. Not so long ago, to > suggest Christ was less than perfect was sacrilege, punishable by death. On > this site, some recent posting have suggested that I should be killed, or > people that think like me should have been killed, because of our ideas, > because of what we believe. > > The number one safety device aboard any boat is experience. We don't sell > plans to people without experience. We recommend they buy a boat first, to > gain experience. We were shouted down when we tried to present this concept > to the group, to the point where Alex had to pull the plug. The message is > clear. Question any sacred cows, except the sacred cows of origami. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy > > > of a proven design. > > > > > > Maybe I was unclear. > > > > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > > > > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > > > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly > > > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the > > > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > > > > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > > > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his > > > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and > > indeed > > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not > even > > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because > they are > > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that > > seem to > > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of > empirical > > > > >>testing? > > > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > > consider that > > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > > safe by > > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > > > copied it > > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > > > How > > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > > > anything about it? > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12524|12509|2007-01-15 17:35:09|brentswain38|Re: concerned about corrosion under 1x1 angle welded to hull plate|We've never had a problem there. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Most of it can be sandblasted with a small nozzle, what I cant get I guess I > will have to use sand paper and wire brush. If I build another one I will > use galvanized angles > Tom > PS I have seen some smaller sandblast nozzles that shoot out the side at > about 45% . I think I will make one and see how it works when the weather > warms up a bit here. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "whec651972" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 12:58 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] concerned about corrosion under 1x1 angle welded to > hull plate > > > > thinking about building a bs26 but in the picture I see 1" angle > > welded to the hull plate how is this cleaned and coated so rust won't > > start under the angle iron. > > Thanks > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12525|12311|2007-01-15 17:39:46|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Good idea. Like the trailing line , you would have to make sure it rounds the boat up instead of bearing off. That would decide which side you favour goinf foreward, something to remain aware of. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > There is a simple solution for people unable to lead the jack lines to the > centerline at the stern. Lead the aft end of the jack lines outboard around > a stanchion, and then back to a stout ring on the tiller. In this way if > you do fall in, the jack line on that side will pull tight; pulling the > tiller hard over towards the stanchion and the boat will tack or jibe > (usually tack), bringing the sails aback. With the way off the boat, you > can pull yourself back to the boat and board. As a bonus, you can then > steer the boat from the jack lines when working forward. > > > > If tether does not prevent you from falling in, and you do not have a simple > means to stop the boat, then you will drown if the boat has any speed on. > There is no use wearing a harness in this case, because it only provides a > false sense of security. A seat belt is not an ideal tether. It is very > difficult to pull yourself up a wet piece of webbing. As an alternative, > attach the ratchet wind-up mechanism from a seatbelt to the shoulders of > your harness. In this way if you do fall in, the ratchet will automatically > wind you back aboard, as though you never left. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12526|12517|2007-01-15 17:43:04|brentswain38|Re: Roll Over|I had no problem crossing Hecate strait in 50 knots of wind with the same vane as yours.stayed below the whole way. Vane did the work. Billy did the same in a sistership in hurricanne force winds with no drogue with bare poles . You must have been oversheeted a lot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Lots of discussion on other boards about Ken Barnes roll over and > dismasting of his steel boat off coast of Chile. Controversy centers > around issue of whether he had sufficient boat resources remaining to > jury rig or otherwise to get his boat to port. > > My question is on prevention as in Hecate Str last summer in 25 knots > and a following sea both tiller pilot and windvane did not keep my > boat on course. I had a partially furled headsail up and was skudding > along briskly but had to remain in cockpit and manually steer. Ken > Barnes had much more severe conditions but again, the problem seems to > be a following sea and preventing a broach. I felt that without being > manually in the cockpit manually on the rudder, I may have broached. > > I suppose I could have trailed a droque but I would appreciate > comments on high winds and following seas. > > Thanks... Gary > | 12527|12527|2007-01-15 17:43:41|Michael Casling|Re: Life Vests/stunning logic|It was a simple question. The gentleman wanted to know if you test your designs. If I read correctly you were the author of the message that you now say is directed at you. It is post 12334. I will not repeat it here as it was not in good taste in my opinion. Greg I believe that you have a lot of knowledge and experience, but you cause me to have difficulty grasping the message at times. I am trying to be charitable. Is it possible to just answer the question and not worry about the fall out. Please note that there are no personal attacks here, so I hope any reply will follow suit. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Your meaning was clear. You find it disturbing that I am presenting ideas > about safety that are different than your own beliefs. On > this site, some recent posting have suggested that I should be killed, or > people that think like me should have been killed, because of our ideas, > because of what we believe. > Greg Elliott > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. | 12528|12311|2007-01-15 17:44:35|sae140|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > The number one safety device aboard any boat is experience. > We don't sell plans to people without experience. > We recommend they buy a boat first, to gain experience. I can't help feeling that there's something badly flawed with this attempt at logic. 1) building and sailing are 2 distinctly separate activities: in general, plans are intended for *building* a boat with, and have precious little to do with *sailing* a boat. So - someone who builds may not sail, and - the most experienced sailor in the world might still be crap at actually building a boat. Fitting-out a hull (especially deck layout, where experience certainly will count), is very much an individual matter and shouldn't be prescribed by a hull designer. 2) How will you ever know for sure that your customer *has* the required experience ? And how would you measure this anyway (?) - it can't be done by the number of days on passage, the number of miles under the keel, or any pieces of paper awarded. Crystal ball ? 3) Surely a boat design either has intrinsically 'safe' characteristics or it hasn't ? If you will only sell plans to "experienced sailors" (please define ...), doesn't this then suggest that there may be something unforgiving about the design on offer ? > We were shouted down when we tried to present this concept > to the group, to the point where Alex had to pull the plug. Who's "We" ?? As I recall, it was your continual emphasis on dubious methods of financing the purchase of an expensive boat which caused Alex to call time on the thread, and had nothing to do with the acquiring of a boat for the purposes of gaining sailing experience, per se. I'm beginning to smell something brown, hot and steamy - and very bovine. Colin| 12529|12476|2007-01-15 17:44:37|Tom|Re: trouble posting|Yep thats what mine have been doing latly, over 24 hours to post and a few I guess are in computer heaven, never did show up. Ive been having problems with my Isp's mail server for about 6 months, now I switched ISP's and use gmail and everthing is working good except yahoo groups. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 8:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: trouble posting > My last post took about 24 hours to show up. I believe Yahoo has also > changed the spam filters and that is also slowing things. Sometimes I > do not receive my own posts, so lately I have been checking this site > rather than waiting for them to arrive. A bit like waiting for spring. > All my projects are stalled until it warms up a bit. The good news is I > have found the parts I need for my OBM for the small boat. > > Michael > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Anyone else having trouble posting messages? >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12530|12516|2007-01-15 17:44:50|Tom|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|Hello Gerd I like it, Looks real roomy Thanks Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been > working on for some months now: > > http://www.yago-project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > enjoy ;-) > > Gerd > the Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12531|12516|2007-01-15 17:44:56|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in Langkawi. With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation is the prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more difficult to maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, twin rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering Garys' next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following sea. Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind against current conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken lightly - this could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the worst for broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long as the ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In scale, it is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning to do much yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, and the mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most dinghies fly downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to broach, no matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to leeward. Stick the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will spin around the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. Greg Elliott _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been working on for some months now: http://www.yago- project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. enjoy ;-) Gerd the Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12532|12311|2007-01-15 17:46:45|mickeyolaf|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|So when is something better than nothing? In the case of harnesses on boats. I think no matter what the argument a harness and tether is better than none at all. If my wife fell off the boat and was hooked on via a harness I know I could pull her aboard. She might be bruised and beat up by the boat and maybe receive a dislocated arm but she would be coming back on. My 250 lb son. Not a chance could I manhandle him back aboard. But I would still want him attached to the boat. Better him dragging in the water along side the boat than gone in the time I could come about or stop and rig up a recovery. Harnessess can be compared to a Police Officer's vest. A Police bullet proof vest will not stop rifle rounds. Nor is it much use in a head, neck, groin, gut,limb etc shot. It is hot, sweaty, and rides up. So why wear it? Because it is better than no vest at all. An officer hopes that the shot will hit him dead center in the plate and hopes it originated from a handgun. But in a real situation the suspects bullets are seldom aimed and fly around the vicinity of their target. So the chance of the dead center hit is slim and it just luck if the vest catches the round as opposed to the head etc. But the vest does protect the major organs from a handgun shot and is therefore better than none at all. The vest increases the chance of survival but does not ensure it. So it is with a harness and tether. The harness/tether increases the odds of survival, doesn't ensure it, but is better than watching the boat disappear over the horizon. A fighting chance is always better than no chance. I would rather drown beside the boat than on my own bobbing with no boat in site. I for one will wear a harness, will listen attentively to the best ideas re the position of the tether, and will buy the best harness I can find. Something that hasn't been mentioned here is fitness and weight. Our sons climb over the side of the ski boat from the water using upper body strength. They grab the side, put a leg up and they're in the boat. I no longer can do that. Maybe one of the failings of us older guys is we have grown over the years (not in height) and have let our strength lapse in front of the TV. Fitness also increases the chance of survival. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Good debate...as a single hander, safety is all.. > > I use climbers webbing (rope would do) that goes from my harness > around the safety line and back to the harness and snapped on. The > safety line runs along against the cabin & trunk from the cockpit to > the anchor well. At the mast I have another separate climbers > webbing attached which I can switch to if needed instantly with a > shackle to my safety harness. Both lines keep me out of the water. > > Alex, ... a video of the test would be great. I volunteer to take > the video.. > > Gary > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of > anyone > > ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or releasing > the > > results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on safety > > harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they were > > recommending. > > Well proven means having been worn without it ever being tested. > I'm > > sure the harness worn by the guy who was drowned by it in the > > farallons race was considered well tested and proven, and came > with > > all kinds of Edsel- Enron type promises. Its obvious that the so > > called "inquiry " didn't enquire as the the attachement point of > the > > tether.Inquirys are only as good as the questions asked. > > An example of such "Proven" systems was the number of "Proven" > boats > > which capsized in the 79 fastnet race and stayed capsized , before > > anyone even began to question the efect of hull shape on ultimate > > stability. If you even tried to warn them before the disaster , you > > would have been considered loco for having the nerve to question > such > > "Proven " designs. > > MY fist boat was another example, designed by an internationally > well > > respected former Sparkman and Stevens designer , and tank tested in > > the Davidson Lab in New York , one of the best in the world and in > use > > for all the twelve meter Americas cup boats of the time. It was a > > total abortion with absolutely no directional stability. I sailed > to > > New Zealand with her yawing 30 degrees off course all the way. I > had > > to reef the main so early that 90 miles a day was a good run. It > did > > 160 miles a day to windward, but was useless downwind. In New > Zealand, > > at the ripe old age of 24 I drasticallly modified the underbody, > which > > was a huge improvement. So who was a wet behind the ears 24 year > old > > amateur to question the shape arrived at by the worlds greatest > > experts? The improvents that resulted spoke for themselves far > better > > than any paper qualifications or international recognition. Just > like > > the results of Enron investments spoke far better than the advice > of > > the worlds most respected financial advisors.Who was anyone to > > question them? > > If I had blind faith in the common knowledge of the day, you guys > > would still be setting up frames , forcing steel to fit where it > > doesn't want to and spending months doing what we now do in a few > days. > > Sacred cows should never go unquestioned. > > A thigh high line down my centreline would have to get past the > > mainsheet, mast, tiller , etc. It's an impossibility on anytging > but a > > flush decker .You couldn't possibly go the full length of the deck > > without having to clip and unclip several times, a dangerous > > proceedure. Down the sidedeck is the only option with a trunk > cabin. > > Giving it enough slack to reach the mast and still reef makes it > too > > slack to prevent you from reaching the water. > > I like to leave the cockpit ends inside the main hatch so I can > snap > > on before opening the hatch. Using car seat belt for this lets me > > close the door on it. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, > and indeed > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not > even > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because > they are > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that > seem to > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of > empirical > > > >>testing? > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > consider that > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > safe by > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, > and > > copied it > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe > design? > > How > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late > to do > > > anything about it? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 12533|12517|2007-01-15 17:47:11|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Roll Over|On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 05:22:40PM -0000, Gary wrote: > Lots of discussion on other boards about Ken Barnes roll over and > dismasting of his steel boat off coast of Chile. Controversy centers > around issue of whether he had sufficient boat resources remaining to > jury rig or otherwise to get his boat to port. > > My question is on prevention as in Hecate Str last summer in 25 knots > and a following sea both tiller pilot and windvane did not keep my > boat on course. I had a partially furled headsail up and was skudding > along briskly but had to remain in cockpit and manually steer. Ken > Barnes had much more severe conditions but again, the problem seems to > be a following sea and preventing a broach. I felt that without being > manually in the cockpit manually on the rudder, I may have broached. > > I suppose I could have trailed a droque but I would appreciate > comments on high winds and following seas. My solution has always been to steer with the wind on the quarter, or at whatever angle the boat will lie best and most comfortably - and once it gets beyond that (very rarely), I heave to. I can imagine some situations in which maintaining a course in bad weather becomes necessary - e.g., a lee shore, a narrow pass, etc. - but so far, I've managed to avoid them by staying away from land when things get hairy. It may be uncomfortable, but it's a hell of a lot safer. It's usually not the ocean that'll hurt you... it's the hard bits around the edges. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12534|12534|2007-01-15 17:47:49|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Biodiesel and Ear stuff|re: the diesel bug Seer, using the diesel bug to clean up spills & having the reaction come to a virtual standstill is one thing, but if it continues long enuf to creat the crystilayne stuff and the black stringy stuff - and from what i have heard there are many forms of this stuff so you can get different colors & forms of crap - that ALL clog the system. even partial breakdown is enuf to be a real hasstle RE: Infections, ,Ear Infections Someone mentioned using diluted H202 = Hydrogen Peroxide in the ears. No Need to dilute it. Learned in Asia from diving to use 3% = straight out of the bottle, dumped straight into the ear to clean out wax. if the ear has any dirt or wax it will foam & then you can remove wax with a "Q" tip. dont do it too often or it will dry the skin. Followed by a bit of olive oil is good to so you can get the rest of the wax later in the day. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 12535|12535|2007-01-15 17:50:15|shaunbarrymcmillan|following sea|if in a following sea, an active strategy may be a problem which worsens with crew fatigue---why not heave to and wait things out?| 12536|12535|2007-01-15 19:36:12|brentswain38|Re: following sea|I met a French couple in Sidney. They had an outboard rudder with a daggger board angled out at about 25 degrees on either side of the rudder. I asked them how well they worked in a following sea. They said with the boards down it was imposssible to get her to sail anywhere but dead downwind. To put her on more of a reach they had to gradually raise the boards.It was imposssible to get her to broach. I had thought of trying them thru ss trunks on my last boat, It would have been easy as it had a lazarette with no foam in. Wish I'd tried it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > if in a following sea, an active strategy may be a problem which > worsens with crew fatigue---why not heave to and wait things out? > | 12537|12311|2007-01-15 19:47:35|brentswain38|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|A designer has an obligation to suggest a deck layout based on his own experience,and the experience of many who have cruised the same design,especially if he has many years experience cruising in that type of boat. People may want to modify it based on their experience, but when that experience is less than that of the designer and others cruising the design, he is taking a crap shoot roll of the dice. The odds of it working out well can be very low. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > The number one safety device aboard any boat is experience. > > We don't sell plans to people without experience. > > We recommend they buy a boat first, to gain experience. > > > I can't help feeling that there's something badly flawed with this > attempt at logic. > > 1) building and sailing are 2 distinctly separate activities: in > general, plans are intended for *building* a boat with, and have > precious little to do with *sailing* a boat. > So - someone who builds may not sail, and - the most experienced > sailor in the world might still be crap at actually building a boat. > > Fitting-out a hull (especially deck layout, where experience > certainly will count), is very much an individual matter and > shouldn't be prescribed by a hull designer. > > 2) How will you ever know for sure that your customer *has* the > required experience ? And how would you measure this anyway (?) - it > can't be done by the number of days on passage, the number of miles > under the keel, or any pieces of paper awarded. Crystal ball ? > > 3) Surely a boat design either has intrinsically 'safe' > characteristics or it hasn't ? If you will only sell plans > to "experienced sailors" (please define ...), doesn't this then > suggest that there may be something unforgiving about the design on > offer ? > > > > We were shouted down when we tried to present this concept > > to the group, to the point where Alex had to pull the plug. > > Who's "We" ?? As I recall, it was your continual emphasis on dubious > methods of financing the purchase of an expensive boat which caused > Alex to call time on the thread, and had nothing to do with the > acquiring of a boat for the purposes of gaining sailing experience, > per se. > > I'm beginning to smell something brown, hot and steamy - and very > bovine. > > Colin > | 12538|12516|2007-01-16 17:07:41|seeratlas|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when you hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in Langkawi. > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation is the > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more difficult to > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, twin > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering Garys' > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following sea. > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind against current > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken lightly - this > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the worst for > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long as the > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In scale, it > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning to do much > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, and the > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most dinghies fly > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to broach, no > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to leeward. Stick > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will spin around > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been > working on for some months now: > > http://www.yago- > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > enjoy ;-) > > Gerd > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- > project.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12539|12517|2007-01-16 17:10:28|seeratlas|Re: Roll Over|I have spent some time running off before seas on the order of those reported by the fellow off chile. I am confident that the efforts of an oversized wagner hydraulic autopilot unit made the difference in my case. Though I can take credit for anticipating the problem and requesting the unit be installed, my brother gets the credit for putting in one substantially larger than would normally be spec'd in order to give me some engineering 'breathing room' which in the end turned out to be just the ticket. A lesser unit would have been destroyed in the first 48 hours of the abuse of that storm. As for humans at the helm, well, you can self steer for awhile under those conditions, and probably for longer than you might think due to the 'incentive' fear of imminent death inspires......but at some point you are going to give out. Then you can try laying ahull, or heaving to, which in my humble opinion, in those kind of circumstances, you are more likely to be rolled/pitchpoled, than not. There's some really wicked water out there..until you've seen it, its hard to convey it adequately with mere words. Oh, and a drogue is essential. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > Gary, > > We are making a Jordan series drogue for these eventualities. My only > experience of confusion in a following sea was sailing back from > France with a wind right on the tail and a reefed main with a > preventer on when the wind got the other side of the main and the boat > slewed around 180° or so, which made us all wonder what had happened > and check the compass. Of the other two boats sailing with us, > neither of which had a preventer one broke its boom and the other > split its main. > > Regards, > Ted > | 12540|12311|2007-01-16 17:10:54|seeratlas|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|- heheh, the good part of this is that the more time you spend on the boat on the water, the better shape you'll be in :) as if you don't have too much automation heheheh, moving around on a constantly moving platform will move you towards the lean and wiry unless your significant other is a gourmet cook in which case, decisions must be made LOL :) seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > So when is something better than nothing? In the case of harnesses > on boats. I think no matter what the argument a harness and tether > is better than none at all. > If my wife fell off the boat and was hooked on via a harness I know > I could pull her aboard. She might be bruised and beat up by the > boat and maybe receive a dislocated arm but she would be coming back > on. My 250 lb son. Not a chance could I manhandle him back aboard. > But I would still want him attached to the boat. Better him dragging > in the water along side the boat than gone in the time I could come > about or stop and rig up a recovery. > Harnessess can be compared to a Police Officer's vest. A Police > bullet proof vest will not stop rifle rounds. Nor is it much use in > a head, neck, groin, gut,limb etc shot. It is hot, sweaty, and rides > up. So why wear it? Because it is better than no vest at all. An > officer hopes that the shot will hit him dead center in the plate > and hopes it originated from a handgun. But in a real situation the > suspects bullets are seldom aimed and fly around the vicinity of > their target. So the chance of the dead center hit is slim and it > just luck if the vest catches the round as opposed to the head etc. > But the vest does protect the major organs from a handgun shot and > is therefore better than none at all. The vest increases the chance > of survival but does not ensure it. > So it is with a harness and tether. The harness/tether increases the > odds of survival, doesn't ensure it, but is better than watching the > boat disappear over the horizon. A fighting chance is always better > than no chance. I would rather drown beside the boat than on my own > bobbing with no boat in site. I for one will wear a harness, will > listen attentively to the best ideas re the position of the tether, > and will buy the best harness I can find. > Something that hasn't been mentioned here is fitness and weight. Our > sons climb over the side of the ski boat from the water using upper > body strength. They grab the side, put a leg up and they're in the > boat. I no longer can do that. Maybe one of the failings of us older > guys is we have grown over the years (not in height) and have let > our strength lapse in front of the TV. Fitness also increases the > chance of survival. > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > Good debate...as a single hander, safety is all.. > > > > I use climbers webbing (rope would do) that goes from my harness > > around the safety line and back to the harness and snapped on. > The > > safety line runs along against the cabin & trunk from the cockpit > to > > the anchor well. At the mast I have another separate climbers > > webbing attached which I can switch to if needed instantly with a > > shackle to my safety harness. Both lines keep me out of the > water. > > > > Alex, ... a video of the test would be great. I volunteer to take > > the video.. > > > > Gary > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > Other than the Practical boat owner tests I've never heard of > > anyone > > > ever doing a man overboard test on a safety harness or > releasing > > the > > > results of such tests. Sail Magazine did an long article on > safety > > > harness without anyone ever testing any of the harnesses they > were > > > recommending. > > > Well proven means having been worn without it ever being > tested. > > I'm > > > sure the harness worn by the guy who was drowned by it in the > > > farallons race was considered well tested and proven, and came > > with > > > all kinds of Edsel- Enron type promises. Its obvious that the so > > > called "inquiry " didn't enquire as the the attachement point of > > the > > > tether.Inquirys are only as good as the questions asked. > > > An example of such "Proven" systems was the number of "Proven" > > boats > > > which capsized in the 79 fastnet race and stayed capsized , > before > > > anyone even began to question the efect of hull shape on ultimate > > > stability. If you even tried to warn them before the disaster , > you > > > would have been considered loco for having the nerve to question > > such > > > "Proven " designs. > > > MY fist boat was another example, designed by an > internationally > > well > > > respected former Sparkman and Stevens designer , and tank tested > in > > > the Davidson Lab in New York , one of the best in the world and > in > > use > > > for all the twelve meter Americas cup boats of the time. It was a > > > total abortion with absolutely no directional stability. I > sailed > > to > > > New Zealand with her yawing 30 degrees off course all the way. I > > had > > > to reef the main so early that 90 miles a day was a good run. It > > did > > > 160 miles a day to windward, but was useless downwind. In New > > Zealand, > > > at the ripe old age of 24 I drasticallly modified the underbody, > > which > > > was a huge improvement. So who was a wet behind the ears 24 year > > old > > > amateur to question the shape arrived at by the worlds greatest > > > experts? The improvents that resulted spoke for themselves far > > better > > > than any paper qualifications or international recognition. Just > > like > > > the results of Enron investments spoke far better than the > advice > > of > > > the worlds most respected financial advisors.Who was anyone to > > > question them? > > > If I had blind faith in the common knowledge of the day, you > guys > > > would still be setting up frames , forcing steel to fit where it > > > doesn't want to and spending months doing what we now do in a > few > > days. > > > Sacred cows should never go unquestioned. > > > A thigh high line down my centreline would have to get past the > > > mainsheet, mast, tiller , etc. It's an impossibility on anytging > > but a > > > flush decker .You couldn't possibly go the full length of the > deck > > > without having to clip and unclip several times, a dangerous > > > proceedure. Down the sidedeck is the only option with a trunk > > cabin. > > > Giving it enough slack to reach the mast and still reef makes > it > > too > > > slack to prevent you from reaching the water. > > > I like to leave the cockpit ends inside the main hatch so I can > > snap > > > on before opening the hatch. Using car seat belt for this lets me > > > close the door on it. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, > > and indeed > > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps > not > > even > > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because > > they are > > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would > that > > seem to > > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of > > empirical > > > > >>testing? > > > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > > consider that > > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It > is > > > safe by > > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, > > and > > > copied it > > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe > > design? > > > How > > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late > > to do > > > > anything about it? > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > | 12541|12311|2007-01-16 17:14:07|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Wow, who do you sell the designs to? They seem dangerous? This reminds me of the old joke about the statistic that in the US somewhere a pedestrian is knocked over by a car every 90 seconds. Boy must he be sore! Enjoy Jim Baltaxe ITS Desktop Support Victoria University of Wellington NEW ZEALAND (04) 463 5018 or 027 563 5018 I suffer from mental incontinence. Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within. "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Sunday, 14 January 2007 9:24 a.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > All my designs have been tested by at least one Pacific > Crossing most have done many . Several 36 footers have done > circumnavigations . One pounded for weeks in 8 ft Baja surf > on the west coast of the Baja,and was winched off thru 8 ft > surf pounding on the hard packed sand every wave for 1/4 mile > , no problems. It hit a steel barge at 14 knots and a log > boom at the same speed with no dammage. Another doing a > circumnavigation pounded across 200 meters of Fijian coral > reef in big surf and was pulled back over the reef with no > real damamge except for all the underwater paint being > knocked off. It later collided with a freighter in Gibralter > with only cosmetic dammage . > One 26 footer did a single season passage thru the Northwest > Passage with no dammage. One 36 footer pouided on the south > end of Hornby Island overnight in a gale with 100 miles of > fetch, no dammage. > Yes all my designs have been well tested , far more so than > 90% of the designs out there. > rent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an > exact copy > > of a proven design. > > > > Maybe I was unclear. > > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out > to be poorly > > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never > go in the > > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means > necessary that his > > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if > he gets it > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and > indeed > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not > > > >>even tank testing--on the supposition that they are > safe because > > > >>they are "based" on some design that is known to work > well? Would > > > >>that > seem to > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of > > > >>empirical testing? > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > consider that > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > safe by > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > > copied it > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a > safe design? > > How > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too > late to do > > > anything about it? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release > Date: 13/01/2007 5:40 p.m. > > | 12542|12542|2007-01-16 17:14:43|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Engine Info|This is a general questions to see if any one has had any dealings with a company called "Foley Engines" Any useful info would help Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12543|12543|2007-01-16 17:15:19|Gerd|Petter / Lister Diesels from India|Somebody in Germany offers small petter and lister diesel Engines, via e-bay simple to service, made in India I guess, handstart with flywheel, should be very easy to "marinize" with dry exhaust and straight sweet water keel cooling... http://stores.ebay.de/Dieselmarkt Anybody here has any practical experience with these engines? What would be the simplest solution for a gearbox? Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com| 12544|12311|2007-01-16 17:15:54|Jim Baltaxe|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Our Coastguard DRV has jacklines - actually tracks and cars - around the entire coachroof and along the guardrails on the foredeck. Rules require anyone on deck other than in the cockpit to be clipped on at ALL times and even in the cockpit at night or bad weather. BTW We also use twin lead tethers. Think of a standard tether with a crab at each end and add a third crab in the center. That one is clipped to the harness and the other two alternate on the cars. This has the additional advantage of temporarily being able to lengthen the tether if needed to reach something. Enjoy Jim Baltaxe ITS Desktop Support Victoria University of Wellington NEW ZEALAND (04) 463 5018 or 027 563 5018 I suffer from mental incontinence. Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within. "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein > -----Original Message----- > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Earl > Sent: Saturday, 13 January 2007 10:22 p.m. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses > > Using 2 umbilicals for connecting to the tether would allow a > "make before break" operation. In this way, even with bad > timing (which happens under stress and fatigue), you'd still > be connected.... > > Cheers > Earl > > seeratlas wrote: > > the option of > > momentarily unclipping from one line and clipping on to > another at my > > choice of timing, than having a system that would allow me over the > > side. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release > Date: 13/01/2007 5:40 p.m. > > | 12545|12311|2007-01-16 17:16:17|khooper_fboats|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|Wow. (?) I concede the point. I have no idea what you are on about, but please don't have an embolism on my account. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Your meaning was clear. You find it disturbing that I am presenting ideas > about safety that are different than your own beliefs. You are frustrated > because you cannot argue against these ideas on merit because they are > supported by evidence and experience. Thus, you want to argue that two > wrongs make a right. That origami is perfect, thus one must be perfect > before they can question origami. > > This is no different than arguing religion. In some cultures it is a death > to suggest that Mohammed is any less than perfect. Not so long ago, to > suggest Christ was less than perfect was sacrilege, punishable by death. On > this site, some recent posting have suggested that I should be killed, or > people that think like me should have been killed, because of our ideas, > because of what we believe. > > The number one safety device aboard any boat is experience. We don't sell > plans to people without experience. We recommend they buy a boat first, to > gain experience. We were shouted down when we tried to present this concept > to the group, to the point where Alex had to pull the plug. The message is > clear. Question any sacred cows, except the sacred cows of origami. > > Greg Elliott > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > It is safe by merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > I understand that you would buy a safety harness that is an exact copy > > > of a proven design. > > > > > > Maybe I was unclear. > > > > > > I would like to know whether you sell boat plans and hulls that are > > > not rigorously tested in heavy seas before you sell them. > > > > > > If you do, it would seem your insistence on extensive testing for > > > harnesses is inconsistent. Surely a vessel that turns out to be poorly > > > designed is more dangerous than a harness. You might never go in the > > > water but you will surely go in the boat. > > > > > > Or, perhaps if a person is going to risk his life, it is his own > > > responsibility to assure himself by whatever means necessary that his > > > equipment is up to scratch, and to face the consequences if he gets it > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>What if somebody sold not only safety gear, but boat plans, and > > indeed > > > > >>entire boats, with little to no bluewater testing, perhaps not > even > > > > >>tank testing--on the supposition that they are safe because > they are > > > > >>"based" on some design that is known to work well? Would that > > seem to > > > > >>contradict your conservative position on the importance of > empirical > > > > >>testing? > > > > > > > > If someone reliably copied a proven offshore harness, I would > > > consider that > > > > a "safe" design, regardless of where the attachments were. It is > > > safe by > > > > merit of it being proven and a reliable copy. > > > > > > > > If someone took a harness not designed or proven for offshore, and > > > copied it > > > > for offshore without testing, would you consider this a safe design? > > > How > > > > would you know until you were in the water and it was too late to do > > > > anything about it? > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12546|12311|2007-01-16 17:17:53|Michael Casling|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|I can follow this logic. What we use may not be perfect, to our own eyes or to someone elses, but it is the best set up we can think of. Hopefully it will work in nearly all conditions. This is likely how most of us approach the subject. Let others find fault if they want. A lady dragged her drowned hubby the last part of a journey to NZ. At least she knew where he was. Unfortunately all is not perfect. I too have lost the ability to haul myself up with one arm. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > So when is something better than nothing? In the case of harnesses > on boats. I think no matter what the argument a harness and tether > is better than none at all. > If my wife fell off the boat and was hooked on via a harness I know > I could pull her aboard. She might be bruised and beat up by the > boat and maybe receive a dislocated arm but she would be coming back > on. | 12547|12517|2007-01-17 17:41:43|brentswain38|Re: Roll Over|Sounds like you have too much friction . It's possible that the missing middle gudgeon is allowing the trimtab shaft to bend slightly and cause it to bind in the top and bottom bearings. Bearings should have about 1/16th inch clearance or more and rattle a bit in both the trimtab shaft and the vane shaft. Perfectionism in the fit is a disaster here. My vane will steer me dead downwind in 1 1/2 knots of wind. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I had no problem crossing Hecate strait in 50 knots of wind with the > same vane as yours.stayed below the whole way. Vane did the work. > Billy did the same in a sistership in hurricanne force winds with no > drogue with bare poles . You must have been oversheeted a lot. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > Lots of discussion on other boards about Ken Barnes roll over and > > dismasting of his steel boat off coast of Chile. Controversy centers > > around issue of whether he had sufficient boat resources remaining to > > jury rig or otherwise to get his boat to port. > > > > My question is on prevention as in Hecate Str last summer in 25 knots > > and a following sea both tiller pilot and windvane did not keep my > > boat on course. I had a partially furled headsail up and was skudding > > along briskly but had to remain in cockpit and manually steer. Ken > > Barnes had much more severe conditions but again, the problem seems to > > be a following sea and preventing a broach. I felt that without being > > manually in the cockpit manually on the rudder, I may have broached. > > > > I suppose I could have trailed a droque but I would appreciate > > comments on high winds and following seas. > > > > Thanks... Gary > > > | 12548|12438|2007-01-18 15:52:22|mickeyolaf|Re: Self Tending Tacking Jibs|I am going to try a free footed jib with the sheet going to a car on a 6'track just ahead of the mast. The sheet will lead back to the cockpit to a self tailing winch. I am also going to try a 130 and also a cutter rig with two high cut jibs. The 100 or 130 jib will be on Harken furling, the staysail on a highfield lever which I can tie back out of the way when sailing as a sloop. (The like new highfield lever was bought at the Seattle Marine swap meet for $30.00) I have lots of options using the deck tracks and cars and the cabin top tracks and cars. I plan to singlehand most of the time so am rigging for ease of sailing until I am really experienced with this boat. I have a buddy who races a Yamaha 36 and he is going to help me optimize the sail plan and rig of my "racing" Swain 36 for solo sailing. (Brent, I can hear you laughing). --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Are you guys talking about useing a club ? or free footed self tacker? > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > I once tried the self tacking jib . Good for stronger winds but its > > difficult to get enough sail area for lighter winds without an overlap. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > > > On my "never finished" 36 I've installed the track ahead of the mast > > > for a self tacking jib on a car with the control led up the mast, > > > back down to an exit and back to the cockpit. I have also welded > > > down 12' of track on each of the side decks and 6' each side of the > > > cabin top aft of the mast. I should now have infinite variation on > > > the jib(s) handling theme. > > > I can still use a conventional jib if I want to but the s/t jib > > > seems to be a no brainer for single handing. I see the new Tarten 34 > > > has one as well as a mess of other new boats including some high end > > > ones. > > > I also now can use an inner self tacking staysail and a regular jib > > > on furling which should make sail reduction easy. > > > I have no idea how the self tacking jib will perform and whether > > > there will be enough sail area and whether the boat will balance but > > > testing it out will be half the fun? I'd like to cut jib(s) high so > > > as to increase visibility. > > > At least with all of that hardware on the deck and sheets and lines > > > running everwhere I 'll look like I know what I'm doing. > > > The first Swain 36 racing motorsailor. > > > Anybody ever dealt with UK sailmakers? I was thinking of having them > > > build my first set. > > > > > > | 12549|12516|2007-01-18 15:53:16|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|No need to go onto the hard. Drop them out of the boat while afloat. Thread a line though as you remove them, to pull them back once repaired. A ring or eye at the top of the shaft can be a big help. With a boat hook you can likely do this all without getting in the water. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seeratlas Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:28 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when you hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. seer --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in Langkawi. > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation is the > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more difficult to > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, twin > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering Garys' > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following sea. > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind against current > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken lightly - this > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the worst for > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long as the > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In scale, it > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning to do much > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, and the > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most dinghies fly > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to broach, no > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to leeward. Stick > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will spin around > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been > working on for some months now: > > http://www.yago- > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/> > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > enjoy ;-) > > Gerd > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > project.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12550|12423|2007-01-18 15:53:29|redwingster|Re: More bug stuff.|In the USA, peroxide is usually sold at 3% concentration. No problem with occasional use. In fact I use undiluted (3%) peroxide in my ears every 4-6 weeks as a maintenance measure. However, it does disolve ear wax, so use on a frequent basis might A) irritate the ear lining, and B} actually make infections more likely by removing some of the ear's natural protection. MRSA is scary stuff. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Nope. I used to use it but have found that alcohol is > better. I always suffered from ear infections but now > I swab with 50/50 alcohol and vinegar. The alcohol is > anti-bacterial and the vinegar is anti-fungal. I have > never had an ear-infection since. > > Cheers, Paul > --- Gary wrote: > > > Would undiluted hydrogen peroxide be too strong for > > one's ear? It > > seems to be a good disinfectant on cuts and scrapes > > etc... > > > > Thanks > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > > > > When A a friend in Tonga got an ear infection > > after diving I > > started > > > washing my ears out with diluted alcohol after > > diving. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > > > MRSA is a topic of concern in the UK where > > hundreds of deaths > > occur > > > > each year. It is difficult to get to the truth > > of the matter as > > > > there is a tendency for hospital administrations > > and politicians > > to > > > > avoid speaking frankly about it. If you google > > mrsa hospital > > deaths > > > > uk you should be able to see what I mean. It > > does not seem to > > be > > > > associated particularly with swimming. I think > > the main problem > > is > > > > that for many years we have relied on > > antibiotics to heal > > infection > > > > but now many bacteria have developed an immunity > > to the > > antibiotic > > > > and hospital staff are having to return to > > skills such as > > washing > > > > their hands and keeping the wards and patients > > clean. According > > to > > > > the media some are unable to cope with these new > > skills. When I > > had > > > > an operation recently I showered before going > > into the theatre. > > Even > > > > though this was on my instruction sheet the > > nurse seemed > > suprised, > > > > pleased and impressed. > > > > > > > > When I was in Sydney, NSW in 1969 I read in the > > Sydney Morning > > Herald > > > > that the incidence of ear nose and throat > > infections was higher > > in > > > > beach side suburbs such as Bondi and Cronulla. > > They put this > > down to > > > > sewage being discharged to sea nearby. > > > > > > > > When I lived in the tropics ear infections were > > common and > > called > > > > coral ear and thought due to swimming and sand > > or coral bits in > > the > > > > water scratching the ear and letting infection > > in. It is also > > common > > > > for folks in coastal villages to use the beach > > as a toilet. > > > > Preventative measures were to smear vaseline > > into the ear before > > > > swimming or wash well with fresh water > > afterwards. This is > > quite > > > > difficult to manage if one is spending some time > > swimming then > > > > sitting about and then swimming again. My > > infections lasted > > months > > > > and months. Cuts and insect bites in the > > tropics, especially > > if one > > > > is a new arrival and have developed no immunity > > almost always > > became > > > > infected and sometimes ulcerated if not looked > > after. I > > remember > > > > watching a sea louse trying to bury itself into > > an ulcer on my > > wrist; > > > > only its tail was still visible and it was > > difficult to flick it > > out. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Have a burning question? > Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. > | 12551|12311|2007-01-18 15:54:11|Earl|Re: Life Vests/Harnesses|The two crew members dead on the "deck" of the U.S. submarine in England were also tethered. Earl Jim Baltaxe wrote: > Our Coastguard DRV has jacklines - actually tracks and cars - around the > entire coachroof and along the guardrails on the foredeck. Rules require > anyone on deck other than in the cockpit to be clipped on at ALL times > and even in the cockpit at night or bad weather. > > BTW We also use twin lead tethers. Think of a standard tether with a > crab at each end and add a third crab in the center. That one is clipped > to the harness and the other two alternate on the cars. This has the > additional advantage of temporarily being able to lengthen the tether if > needed to reach something. > > Enjoy > > Jim Baltaxe > ITS Desktop Support > Victoria University of Wellington > NEW ZEALAND > (04) 463 5018 or 027 563 5018 > > I suffer from mental incontinence. > > Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within. > "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would > it?" -- Albert Einstein > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Earl >> Sent: Saturday, 13 January 2007 10:22 p.m. >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Life Vests/Harnesses >> >> Using 2 umbilicals for connecting to the tether would allow a >> "make before break" operation. In this way, even with bad >> timing (which happens under stress and fatigue), you'd still >> be connected.... >> >> Cheers >> Earl >> >> seeratlas wrote: >> >>> the option of >>> momentarily unclipping from one line and clipping on to >>> >> another at my >> >>> choice of timing, than having a system that would allow me over the >>> side. >>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release >> Date: 13/01/2007 5:40 p.m. >> >> >> > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12552|12543|2007-01-18 15:55:43|sae140|Re: Petter / Lister Diesels from India|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Somebody in Germany offers small petter and lister diesel Engines, via > e-bay simple to service, made in India I guess, handstart with > flywheel, should be very easy to "marinize" with dry exhaust and > straight sweet water keel cooling... > > http://stores.ebay.de/Dieselmarkt > > Anybody here has any practical experience with these engines? What > would be the simplest solution for a gearbox? > > Gerd > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > Hi Gerd I remember reading a thread on a site devoted to Old Marine and stationary engines, that several Indian clones were found to have casting sand remaining inside the main block. The collective wisdom was to immediately strip down the engine on delivery to check for and remove any sand. Apart from lousy quality control on this aspect, the engines were considered reasonably ok. Hopefully this is a problem with just one manufacturer ? One source of Indian marine engines is: admin@... Kondosyokai fit Simpson Marine engines (made in India, originally under licence from Perkins,UK) with ZF boxes/reduction gear, to their Colvin Gazelles. They might be willing to supply direct. Alternatively, try: simpsonI@... ZF gearboxes appear to be available everywhere: US/ China/ Iran ... Also - the Shaoxing Advance Gearbox Co., Ltd. (China) might be worth investigating. They make manual marine boxes for 3 - 500 HP engines. Colin| 12553|12543|2007-01-18 15:55:45|mkriley@fuse.net|Petter / Lister Diesels from India|Anybody here has any practical experience with these engines? What would be the simplest solution for a gearbox? lots of engine specific info here http://www.utterpower.com/engines.htm kitchen rudder would be the easiest solution for propulsion mike| 12554|12438|2007-01-18 15:55:58|John Jones|Re: Self Tending Tacking Jibs|What about a forestay sail with a boom forward and self adjusted? Just a thought --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Are you guys talking about useing a club ? or free footed self tacker? > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" brentswain38@ > wrote: > > > > I once tried the self tacking jib . Good for stronger winds but its > > difficult to get enough sail area for lighter winds without an overlap. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > > > On my "never finished" 36 I've installed the track ahead of the mast > > > for a self tacking jib on a car with the control led up the mast, > > > back down to an exit and back to the cockpit. I have also welded > > > down 12' of track on each of the side decks and 6' each side of the > > > cabin top aft of the mast. I should now have infinite variation on > > > the jib(s) handling theme. > > > I can still use a conventional jib if I want to but the s/t jib > > > seems to be a no brainer for single handing. I see the new Tarten 34 > > > has one as well as a mess of other new boats including some high end > > > ones. > > > I also now can use an inner self tacking staysail and a regular jib > > > on furling which should make sail reduction easy. > > > I have no idea how the self tacking jib will perform and whether > > > there will be enough sail area and whether the boat will balance but > > > testing it out will be half the fun? I'd like to cut jib(s) high so > > > as to increase visibility. > > > At least with all of that hardware on the deck and sheets and lines > > > running everwhere I 'll look like I know what I'm doing. > > > The first Swain 36 racing motorsailor. > > > Anybody ever dealt with UK sailmakers? I was thinking of having them > > > build my first set. > > > > > > | 12555|12555|2007-01-18 15:56:22|Gary|More following seas|Just uploaded 3 pics showing freighter on Lake Superior in November storm. I would assume under such circumstances for a sailboat a drogue would have been deployed. Still, one is left to wonder about the odds of surviving these conditions. Gary| 12556|12516|2007-01-18 15:59:20|Gerd|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|Seer - the scantling for the rudders is laid out for rudders without skeg, and very solidly so. We then decided to have skegs in addition to that, slotted into the hull and taken with additional webbing bound into the structure, which means that you would more or less have to rip the entire aft hull off if you want to cause damage... ;-) But yes, if and in the unlikely case that you need to service them you would need to lift the hull enough to be able to drop the shafts out. In this respect, a transom hung rudder like on the Yago 31 is easier to handle. Gerd The Yago-Poject at http://www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when you > hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's > design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in > Langkawi. > > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation is the > > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more > difficult to > > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, twin > > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering Garys' > > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following sea. > > > > > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind against > current > > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken > lightly - this > > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the > worst for > > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long > as the > > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In > scale, it > > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning to > do much > > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, and the > > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most dinghies fly > > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to broach, no > > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to > leeward. Stick > > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will spin > around > > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Gerd > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been > > working on for some months now: > > > > http://www.yago- > > > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. > > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a > > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom > > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel > > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular > > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking > > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > > > enjoy ;-) > > > > Gerd > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- > > project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12557|12543|2007-01-19 17:48:15|Abraham George|Re: Petter / Lister Diesels from India|You will get single cyl. air cooled diesel engine of kubota manufactured in India under govt supervision pretty cheap. Its sold under the brand name Kamco... its pretty good and maintanance free and is of good quality also. only drawback is its pretty heavy. so the ballast have to be reworked..... Pretty good engines...... Avaraan from Malabar coast (India). ------------------------- --- sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" > wrote: > > > > Somebody in Germany offers small petter and lister > diesel Engines, > via > > e-bay simple to service, made in India I guess, > handstart with > > flywheel, should be very easy to "marinize" with > dry exhaust and > > straight sweet water keel cooling... > > > > http://stores.ebay.de/Dieselmarkt > > > > Anybody here has any practical experience with > these engines? What > > would be the simplest solution for a gearbox? > > > > Gerd > > The Yago Project at http://www.yago-project.com > > > > Hi Gerd > > I remember reading a thread on a site devoted to Old > Marine and > stationary engines, that several Indian clones were > found to have > casting sand remaining inside the main block. The > collective wisdom > was to immediately strip down the engine on delivery > to check for and > remove any sand. Apart from lousy quality control > on this aspect, > the engines were considered reasonably ok. > Hopefully this is a > problem with just one manufacturer ? > > One source of Indian marine engines is: > admin@... > > Kondosyokai fit Simpson Marine engines (made in > India, originally > under licence from Perkins,UK) with ZF > boxes/reduction gear, to their > Colvin Gazelles. They might be willing to supply > direct. > > Alternatively, try: simpsonI@... > > ZF gearboxes appear to be available everywhere: US/ > China/ Iran ... > > Also - the Shaoxing Advance Gearbox Co., Ltd. > (China) might be worth > investigating. They make manual marine boxes for 3 - > 500 HP engines. > > > Colin > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com| 12558|12555|2007-01-19 17:48:34|andrelangevin|Re: More following seas|Scary at most. I never though the great lakes could be furious as these ! Gary where did you get these, do you have them in higher resolution ? I also have a few on my web site: http://www.langevin.biz/marinette34/wannabethere.htm Thanks ! - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Just uploaded 3 pics showing freighter on Lake Superior in November > storm. I would assume under such circumstances for a sailboat a > drogue would have been deployed. Still, one is left to wonder about > the odds of surviving these conditions. > > Gary > | 12559|12555|2007-01-19 17:48:44|Peter Muth|Re: More following seas|It would be interesting to know what the wave height and ship length/freeboard are in the picture. Gary wrote: > > Just uploaded 3 pics showing freighter on Lake Superior in November > storm. I would assume under such circumstances for a sailboat a > drogue would have been deployed. Still, one is left to wonder about > the odds of surviving these conditions. > > Gary > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12560|12543|2007-01-19 17:49:51|sae140|Re: Petter / Lister Diesels from India|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Anybody here has any practical experience with these engines? What > would be the simplest solution for a gearbox? > > lots of engine specific info here > > http://www.utterpower.com/engines.htm > > kitchen rudder would be the easiest solution for propulsion > mike > The Kitchen rudder (or derivative - McNab etc) would be ideal on a power boat, but perhaps too much added wetted area for a sailboat ? You might consider using a split-rudder design, such as US Patent 1611564 ? Needs simplifying though .... BYW - one link re. casting sand here: http://www.woodnstuff.ca/listeroids.htm I think the big negative on these engines is the sheer weight of 'em. Ever considered a Sabb ? Now if the Indians or Chinese would copy those .... Colin| 12561|12555|2007-01-19 17:50:07|woodcraftssuch|Re: More following seas|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Just uploaded 3 pics showing freighter on Lake Superior in November > storm. I would assume under such circumstances for a sailboat a > drogue would have been deployed. Still, one is left to wonder about > the odds of surviving these conditions. > > Gary > Gary, Beautiful photos! I'm assuming they are looking forward, toward the bow? Any more like that? Sam| 12562|12562|2007-01-19 17:51:07|mickeyolaf|Some Boats are too big.|I was looking at the 100'(plus) floating bleach bottle today that is berthed across from us. Three decks, two R2D2 domes on the flybridge, 2 Sea Doos, speedboat, hot tub etc. The crew wear matching golf shirts and fleeces, wear headsets with mics to talk to each other and matching baseball hats with the boat's name on it. They don't talk to anyone on the dock. Maybe they know I'm laughing at them. There has to be a certain point where these floating tupperware apartments are declared excessive and environmentally unsound. What happened to going to sea, braving the elements, being soaked with spray, learning seamanship, being a man amoung men, repelling pirates, drinking rum from the bottle when u've thrown away the cork? For some reason I look at the size of that boat and that level of excessiveness and it saddens me. I know it's not jealousy because the only boats that impress me are the one's that look weathered and travelled and have good hardware and rigs and the sailors say hello. I really think we have it right with our 30-40' metal boats. Low impact on the world. Big enough for adventure but not oppulant and ridiculous. My countrymen had it right. Their idea of boating was to sail over to England, raid the British shoretowns and carry away the English lassies. Fair winds, a case of scotch and three virgins in the hold. Now that's real boating.| 12563|12563|2007-01-19 17:52:21|joeearsley|Weather Fax|Hello, I'm wondering what the simple weather fax technology is today. Is SSB necessary? Serches on the web point to expensive chart plotters and I'm not that interested in them. joe| 12564|12423|2007-01-19 17:52:51|ANDREW AIREY|Re: More bug stuff.|Going on this weeks court cases buying Hydrogen Peroxide in quantity could lead to an unpleasant visitation from the boys in blue - seems like our home grown terrorists have been buying hair bleach in quantity,boiling it down to concentrate it,and combining it with chapatti flour to make home made bombs which,fortunately,didn't work.Should have added some vindaloo paste as well - that was always said to be a way of causing unpleasant explosions,particularly after 10 pints of lager cheers Andy Airey(in UK) Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 12565|12565|2007-01-19 18:17:08|Alex Christie|Alex's Origami bare hull for sale|Well, with some regret, my detailed bare hull, the original star of the first origami film, is up for sale. I am selling it at under cost for $15,750 CDN (around $13,500 USD). It was an emotional decision, but the rationale is more about assets and liabilities currently coupled with the need to move forward with my second film. I'll start again when I'm ready -- I'm down but not out of the game, that much is certain. I'd ideally like to "partner" with someone who would work with me to let the second film be made while this hull is fitted out. I would be available to do lots of work on it, including the option of fully managing the entire completion of the hull if so desired. If there was a keen desire for an accelerated completion program to get the boat finished and floating by this summer/fall, I'd be very happy to facilitate that for fair recompense. In that scenario, the boat could be stored securely at my house lot for around 6 months. I'm actually more excited to see a hull completed and launched than clinging to the bare hull until the cows come home! Interested parties can contact me at achristie@... for more info. The hull is located in Courtenay, BC, and needs to be moved. My lot location is about 18 kms south. Alex| 12566|12563|2007-01-19 18:22:47|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Weather Fax|Chart plotters and SSB are 2 different things. If you don't like the chart plotters fair enough. As far as a weather fax goes you can either get them as stand alone or if you have a computer you can get an SSB (good idea if traveling offshore) along with a program called "Weather Fax for Window's" and then your SSB is now your weather fax. There are numerous cruising nets out there using an SSB giving you the chance to meet new people and find out weather conditions to where you may be going. Then all you have to do is buy the Weather Fax Program ($200 & comes with everything you need) stick to your paper charts and you are all set. Hope this Helps Cameron Murray www.trans-marine.net ----- Original Message ----- From: joeearsley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Weather Fax Hello, I'm wondering what the simple weather fax technology is today. Is SSB necessary? Serches on the web point to expensive chart plotters and I'm not that interested in them. joe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12567|12562|2007-01-19 18:52:30|Aaron Williams|Re: Some Boats are too big.|Whats is the yacht's name mickeyolaf wrote: I was looking at the 100'(plus) floating bleach bottle today that is berthed across from us. Three decks, two R2D2 domes on the flybridge, 2 Sea Doos, speedboat, hot tub etc. The crew wear matching golf shirts and fleeces, wear headsets with mics to talk to each other and matching baseball hats with the boat's name on it. They don't talk to anyone on the dock. Maybe they know I'm laughing at them. There has to be a certain point where these floating tupperware apartments are declared excessive and environmentally unsound. What happened to going to sea, braving the elements, being soaked with spray, learning seamanship, being a man amoung men, repelling pirates, drinking rum from the bottle when u've thrown away the cork? For some reason I look at the size of that boat and that level of excessiveness and it saddens me. I know it's not jealousy because the only boats that impress me are the one's that look weathered and travelled and have good hardware and rigs and the sailors say hello. I really think we have it right with our 30-40' metal boats. Low impact on the world. Big enough for adventure but not oppulant and ridiculous. My countrymen had it right. Their idea of boating was to sail over to England, raid the British shoretowns and carry away the English lassies. Fair winds, a case of scotch and three virgins in the hold. Now that's real boating. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12568|12563|2007-01-19 19:00:06|Gerd|Re: Weather Fax|You could also request free GRIB files via mail. Have a look at http://www.grib.us/ for free viewer and more info, and at http://www.globalmarinenet.net/grib.htm to see how to request a GRIB file by mail for any wordlwide area. Forecasts are very deailed, and can be for several days. Gerd The Yago project at http://www.yago-project.com| 12569|12569|2007-01-19 21:31:42|Gary|Lake Superior Pics|Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the series of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary What Lake Superior can dish out during a storm. The importance of testing hatch covers.....!! The bulk carrier Selkirk Settler pictured here is 720 ft long; the pictures explain the rest. Apparently, these are only 10 metre "blue water" waves. These photographs were taken last month aboard Misener Steamships MV Selkirk Settler as she transited Lake Superior in typical November weather| 12570|12569|2007-01-20 11:46:26|woodcraftssuch|Re: Lake Superior Pics|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the series > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary Thank you. They must load them up until they're almost a submarine. The decks are sure to be squeaky clean after all that. Sam| 12571|12563|2007-01-20 20:42:25|Paul Wilson|Re: Weather Fax|Go to www.mscan.com and get the free version of MScan Meteo. It uses the audio output of the receiver into the mic input of your computer to receive weather fax charts. There is no need to buy special hardware or programs. Don't buy a dedicated weatherfax receiver. It is a waste of money. If you have e-mail onboard the GRIB files are great too. Cheers, Paul --- joeearsley wrote: > Hello, I'm wondering what the simple weather fax > technology is > today. Is SSB necessary? Serches on the web point > to expensive chart > plotters and I'm not that interested in them. > > joe > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097| 12572|12565|2007-01-20 21:16:52|aaron riis|Re: Alex's Origami bare hull for sale|Sorry to hear that, Alex, if i had money, I would be all over that, but if i keep chugging away, i should finish my 26 footer next year maybe. it has been a long process, I started when i was 23, now am 30. sometimes i wish that i built a bigger boat, but if i can't finish this one, i cannot finish a bigger one. About a year ago i had my boat trucked from Terrace to the Queen Charlottes where we live. i started the boat in terrace and could have lost the project in transit. It came over on the Queen of the north a few weeks before the sinking. My neighbor gave me a piece of half inch plexiglass from a hockey arena for my windows. I can now say that my boat windows have Wayne Gretzky's blood on them. If i had built a bigger boat, i would have to have given up the project when i moved here. If i make it down to Vancouver island, i would love to drop in on some of the local people building, there aren't many people into it here. Good luck, Aaron -- Alex Christie wrote: > Well, with some regret, my detailed bare hull, the > original star of the first origami film, is up for > sale. I am selling it at under cost for $15,750 CDN > (around $13,500 USD). It was an emotional decision, > but the rationale is more about assets and > liabilities currently coupled with the need to move > forward with my second film. I'll start again when > I'm ready -- I'm down but not out of the game, that > much is certain. I'd ideally like to "partner" with > someone who would work with me to let the second > film be made while this hull is fitted out. I would > be available to do lots of work on it, including the > option of fully managing the entire completion of > the hull if so desired. > > If there was a keen desire for an accelerated > completion program to get the boat finished and > floating by this summer/fall, I'd be very happy to > facilitate that for fair recompense. In that > scenario, the boat could be stored securely at my > house lot for around 6 months. > > I'm actually more excited to see a hull completed > and launched than clinging to the bare hull until > the cows come home! > > Interested parties can contact me at > achristie@... for more info. > > The hull is located in Courtenay, BC, and needs to > be moved. My lot location is about 18 kms south. > > Alex > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/| 12573|9840|2007-01-21 14:36:34|Tom|BS 26|Hello All I was wondering, on the other 26's that were built about 10% bigger around 28-29 feet long was it just the length or is the pattern expanded say with a plotter 10% to give a little more beem, freeboard and length? When I started the 26 I just went with the smallest to get experiance building one and to figure out what I wanted in a bigger one and I have decided to keep it around 29-30' and still be trailerable. I am not going to start anything till the 26 is finished but the opertunity has come up to get the materials dirt cheap, one of my steel supplyers wants to take me to there steel yard and look at there rems and wrong orderd weatherd steel and see what I can use, he said there is a lot of it and he will make me one heck of a deal on it. offers like that dont come along that often so I better take advantage of it , just need to figure exactly what I need first Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12574|12565|2007-01-22 09:57:36|Gerd|Re: Alex's Origami bare hull for sale|Alex, I only hope it's nothing serious that you ran into ..otherwise, just stick with us and keep your head up. The second time will be much faster and easier, really ;-) Keep the dream alive, ok??! Gerd| 12575|12543|2007-01-22 10:17:09|Gerd|Re: Petter / Lister Diesels from India|thanks tor the hints, guys, I will follow that up. Would be great to hear from somebody who has actually marinized one of those. Gerd http://www.yago-project.com| 12576|12576|2007-01-23 01:52:24|morechance65|You should look at this.......|How much do you know about military singles? em...mabe, I am special one for you....Let's give both of us one more chance and step the first step. http://chancegrasp76.bravehost.com| 12577|22|2007-01-23 01:56:13|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /militarysingle.html Uploaded by : morechance65 Description : Get to know more military sinlges. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/militarysingle.html To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, morechance65 | 12579|12569|2007-01-23 06:59:46|sae140|Re: Lake Superior Pics|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the > series > > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary > > Thank you. They must load them up until they're almost a submarine. The > decks are sure to be squeaky clean after all that. Sam > You can make ships TOO big - so that they break in half under their own weight when unsupported ... (like the Titanic did - before it finally sank). Even smaller ships like the MSC Napoli suffer from this weakeness: "All 26 crew of the 62,000-tonne Napoli were plucked to safety by rescue helicopters as they abandoned the ship in 40-foot seas and 70mph winds. The drifting vessel was being towed to Portland for a salvage operation but the Maritime and Coastguard Agency said it was beached following "serious structural failure". "The weather overnight has been very poor with 45 knots of wind and a five metre swell," a spokesman said. The MSC Napoli has suffered serious structural failure, the large cracks on both sides of the ship have worsened during the night." For pics, see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/6278295.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6283965.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6288845.stm Colin| 12580|12580|2007-01-23 19:24:20|brentswain38|Soldering Titanium|After many years of trying special stainless solder with no good results I tried simple acid core solder. It works great on both stainless and titanium. I've always wanted to make a corrosion proof fuse block out of Titanium, with no bolts rivets or mechanical connections. This makes it possible. Electrics don't like acid core so I'll just use the acid core to wet it out and get a good contact, then wipe the excess away, wash any surface acid off then use rosin core for the connection. Corrosion in brass fuse blocks has been a constant pain in the ass, and I prefer to avoid breakers as I wouldn't know how to deal with them if they had problems out in the coconut patch. Titanuim would also make a good knife switch. Brent| 12581|12569|2007-01-24 14:39:38|keith_cociani|Re: Lake Superior Pics|I was Sailing on the Algontario and did several crossings of lake Superior during September November and December of 2006 and can assure you that it can be a very nausiating expirience. It is esspecially bad when in balast. The rolling is endless. I never lost my lunch but others did.| 12582|12580|2007-01-24 19:45:49|Mike|Re: Soldering Titanium|Interesting. You'll have to keep us informed on how this works out. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > After many years of trying special stainless solder with no good > results I tried simple acid core solder. It works great on both > stainless and titanium. I've always wanted to make a corrosion proof > fuse block out of Titanium, with no bolts rivets or mechanical > connections. This makes it possible. Electrics don't like acid core so > I'll just use the acid core to wet it out and get a good contact, then > wipe the excess away, wash any surface acid off then use rosin core > for the connection. Corrosion in brass fuse blocks has been a constant > pain in the ass, and I prefer to avoid breakers as I wouldn't know how > to deal with them if they had problems out in the coconut patch. > Titanuim would also make a good knife switch. > Brent > | 12583|12583|2007-01-24 20:51:01|Tom|interesting mast setup|http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILBOAT-MAST-WITH-ROLLER-FURLING_W0QQitemZ150083897980QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting concept, I wonder how well it works ? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12584|12583|2007-01-24 23:46:32|Paul Wilson|Re: interesting mast setup|That is an old Famet unit. I have one on my genoa and they are bullet proof. I would never have one on my mainmast however. It adds a lot of weight and compression to the mast and with jiffy or slab reefing being so fast and simple nobody needs roller reefing on a main. You could take it off the mast and use it on a genoa if you could get a couple of more sections. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:43:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] interesting mast setup http://cgi.ebay com/ebaymotors/ SAILBOAT- MAST-WITH- ROLLER-FURLING_ W0QQitemZ1500838 97980QQihZ005QQc ategoryZ31281QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewIte m Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting concept, I wonder how well it works ? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12585|12562|2007-01-26 01:41:43|seeratlas|Re: Some Boats are too big.|> My countrymen had it right. Their idea of boating was to sail over to > England, raid the British shoretowns and carry away the English > lassies. Fair winds, a case of scotch and three virgins in the hold. > Now that's real boating. > Hmmm, no offense but finding three brit virgins these days would likely require some Beatrice Potter reading material be added to the ship's stores for the cruise back heheh. seer| 12586|12569|2007-01-26 05:12:33|seeratlas|Re: Lake Superior Pics|Gary, where did you upload those pics to? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the series > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary > > What Lake Superior can dish out during a storm. The importance of > testing hatch covers.....!! > > The bulk carrier Selkirk Settler pictured here is 720 ft long; the > pictures explain the rest. > > Apparently, these are only 10 metre "blue water" waves. > > These photographs were taken last month aboard Misener Steamships MV > Selkirk Settler as she transited Lake Superior in typical November > weather > | 12587|12580|2007-01-26 16:41:35|brentswain38|Re: Soldering Titanium|This also gives us the option of soldering together stainless gally linings, etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Interesting. You'll have to keep us informed on how this works out. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > After many years of trying special stainless solder with no good > > results I tried simple acid core solder. It works great on both > > stainless and titanium. I've always wanted to make a corrosion proof > > fuse block out of Titanium, with no bolts rivets or mechanical > > connections. This makes it possible. Electrics don't like acid core so > > I'll just use the acid core to wet it out and get a good contact, then > > wipe the excess away, wash any surface acid off then use rosin core > > for the connection. Corrosion in brass fuse blocks has been a constant > > pain in the ass, and I prefer to avoid breakers as I wouldn't know how > > to deal with them if they had problems out in the coconut patch. > > Titanuim would also make a good knife switch. > > Brent > > > | 12588|12583|2007-01-26 17:12:16|brentswain38|Re: interesting mast setup|That arrangement put a large compression load on the mast so you would want to have a stiff mast and keep an eye on its bending charactreristics in a strong wind. Perhaps the ease of reefing would compensate for this. There could be a lot of chafe with the rig partially reefed working its way back and forth across the mast , shrouds and spreaders . You'd want a good spreader patch on the mainsail and wonder if that would be enough for long passages. You'd want to keep a sharp eye on it. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILBOAT-MAST-WITH-ROLLER-FURLING_W0QQitemZ150083897980QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting concept, I wonder how well it works ? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12589|12569|2007-01-26 19:58:11|woodcraftssuch|Re: Lake Superior Pics|There seems to be a descrepency over where these photos are located, Lake Superior in 2006 VS the North Atlantic in 1987. Either way, scary is scary! Sam http://pics.boatnerd.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=album2419 http://www.flickr.com/photos/51216464@N00/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the series > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary > > What Lake Superior can dish out during a storm. The importance of > testing hatch covers.....!! > > The bulk carrier Selkirk Settler pictured here is 720 ft long; the > pictures explain the rest. > > Apparently, these are only 10 metre "blue water" waves. > > These photographs were taken last month aboard Misener Steamships MV > Selkirk Settler as she transited Lake Superior in typical November > weather > | 12590|12569|2007-01-26 21:38:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Lake Superior Pics|I think the North Atlantic tag is the correct one the Lake ships are not shaped in the same way as the Atlantic ships because of the way forces are with the way the water breaks. Lake Superior is relatively shallow and breaks in a short but tall chop when the well knowen North wind blows. The lake ships are typicaly longer wider flat bottem and less freeboard then the Atlantic ships. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > There seems to be a descrepency over where these photos are located, > Lake Superior in 2006 VS the North Atlantic in 1987. Either way, > scary is scary! Sam > http://pics.boatnerd.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=album2419 > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/51216464@N00/ | 12591|12591|2007-01-26 22:01:30|Tom|BS 26 going diesel|Hello All Lot of mixed feelings about volvo's, but I ended up buying one its a MD7A 13 hp 2cyl. I was going to put in the atomic 4 gas but couldnt put the fuel tanks where I wanted + there is a lot more safey things involved, diesel is a lot simpler instalation. The fuel and water tanks I am going to build will be along the chines, I'm figuring about 20 gal of fuel and 20 gal of water per side. Above the balast in the keel there is just enough room for 2 group 27 batteries or maybee 3 group 24's and to try to put any tanks in the center there's just not enough room unless I raised the floor, I need all the head room I can get. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12592|12569|2007-01-26 22:57:27|Gary|Re: Lake Superior Pics|Hello Seer... click on Photos then click on small button beside View that says List... -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Gary, where did you upload those pics to? > seer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the series > > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary > > > > What Lake Superior can dish out during a storm. The importance of > > testing hatch covers.....!! > > > > The bulk carrier Selkirk Settler pictured here is 720 ft long; the > > pictures explain the rest. > > > > Apparently, these are only 10 metre "blue water" waves. > > > > These photographs were taken last month aboard Misener Steamships MV > > Selkirk Settler as she transited Lake Superior in typical November > > weather > > > | 12593|12569|2007-01-27 19:55:17|seeratlas|Re: Lake Superior Pics|Jesus, looks like a Gitchigoomi gotcha :) now imagine having to go over the side into a liferaft....wasn't there a canadian singer wrote a pretty darn good folksong about the wreck of a boat like that on Superior? the something Fitzgerald? seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Hello Seer... click on Photos then click on small button beside View > that says List... > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > Gary, where did you upload those pics to? > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the > series > > > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary > > > > > > What Lake Superior can dish out during a storm. The importance of > > > testing hatch covers.....!! > > > > > > The bulk carrier Selkirk Settler pictured here is 720 ft long; > the > > > pictures explain the rest. > > > > > > Apparently, these are only 10 metre "blue water" waves. > > > > > > These photographs were taken last month aboard Misener > Steamships MV > > > Selkirk Settler as she transited Lake Superior in typical > November > > > weather > > > > > > | 12594|12583|2007-01-27 20:02:53|seeratlas|Re: interesting mast setup|I agree. furthermore the large compression is going to be out of column which is even worse. The efficiency of the sail is going to be questionable also as looks to me that the arrangement is going to induce a lot of turbulence and push the 'power' in the sail even further aft than normal. I've been on a few large boats that use vertical furling, but seems overkill on a 35/36 footer. Send him a letter asking why its for sale and the boat isn't :) hehehe seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > That arrangement put a large compression load on the mast so you would > want to have a stiff mast and keep an eye on its bending > charactreristics in a strong wind. Perhaps the ease of reefing would > compensate for this. There could be a lot of chafe with the rig > partially reefed working its way back and forth across the mast , > shrouds and spreaders . You'd want a good spreader patch on the > mainsail and wonder if that would be enough for long passages. You'd > want to keep a sharp eye on it. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILBOAT-MAST-WITH-ROLLER-FURLING_W0QQitemZ150083897980QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > > > Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling > main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting > concept, I wonder how well it works ? > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12595|12569|2007-01-27 20:13:24|seeratlas|Re: Lake Superior Pics|Interesting, couple of things, the color of the water, and given the fair weather photo showing the size/shape of the boat, those waves seem a lot bigger than Superior's 'steep chop'.:) Back in 75 I was coming back to US from europe on the QEII, and we got "into it" out in the north atlantic. the waves turned some of the windows/ports of the upper staterooms into SeaWorld like windows on an aquarium ;) heheheh. When I went to evening dining, out of some 1800 passengers I think about ten of us showed up to eat, and I wasn't feeling all that chipper myself. Anyway, the captain came down to congratulate those of us still ambulatory, and then called us up to the bridge for a good look at something amazing. There off about 4 to 500 yards from the starboard bow was a "30 something" sloop, all reefed down to a trysail, dragging a drogue, and seemingly having no trouble at all. He was going up and down probably over 100 feet between crests and when the cap hit the horn on the stack, the hatch popped open and the fellow's head came out and he waved he was just fine LOL. Then he popped back out of view. Must have been some kind of sailor. the whole scene reminded me of a storm petrel just riding it out. but to tell the truth, i was glad i was on the queen hehehehehe. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > There seems to be a descrepency over where these photos are located, > Lake Superior in 2006 VS the North Atlantic in 1987. Either way, > scary is scary! Sam > http://pics.boatnerd.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=album2419 > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/51216464@N00/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > Here is the text I received with the pics. I have uploaded the > series > > of 5 so you can see the entire ship.... Gary > > > > What Lake Superior can dish out during a storm. The importance of > > testing hatch covers.....!! > > > > The bulk carrier Selkirk Settler pictured here is 720 ft long; the > > pictures explain the rest. > > > > Apparently, these are only 10 metre "blue water" waves. > > > > These photographs were taken last month aboard Misener Steamships MV > > Selkirk Settler as she transited Lake Superior in typical November > > weather > > > | 12596|12569|2007-01-27 20:40:03|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Lake Superior Pics|On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 12:55:07AM -0000, seeratlas wrote: > Jesus, looks like a Gitchigoomi gotcha :) > now imagine having to go over the side into a liferaft....wasn't there > a canadian singer wrote a pretty darn good folksong about the wreck of > a boat like that on Superior? the something Fitzgerald? Yep; that would be "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", by Gordon Lightfoot. http://www.brianburnsmusic.com/hw_song_14.htm A friend of mine was a cub reporter in Sault Ste. Marie, MI, and was one of the few people on the scene when the Fitz went down. Quite the story. http://www.peak.org/~kightp/scribble/fitz.html -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12597|12583|2007-01-28 09:39:13|Tom|Re: interesting mast setup|Hello Seer Yes someone did ask him why he was selling and he said his boat was totaled in the storm. Im not considering buying that one it would be to heavy on the 26. Compensating for the out of column compression could be delt with but the chafe problem could be tricky. If a guy had to listen to the luff slapping the mast all day it would drive you nuts. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "seeratlas" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting mast setup >I agree. furthermore the large compression is going to be out of > column which is even worse. The efficiency of the sail is going to be > questionable also as looks to me that the arrangement is going to > induce a lot of turbulence and push the 'power' in the sail even > further aft than normal. I've been on a few large boats that use > vertical furling, but seems overkill on a 35/36 footer. Send him a > letter asking why its for sale and the boat isn't :) hehehe > > seer > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: >> >> That arrangement put a large compression load on the mast so you would >> want to have a stiff mast and keep an eye on its bending >> charactreristics in a strong wind. Perhaps the ease of reefing would >> compensate for this. There could be a lot of chafe with the rig >> partially reefed working its way back and forth across the mast , >> shrouds and spreaders . You'd want a good spreader patch on the >> mainsail and wonder if that would be enough for long passages. You'd >> want to keep a sharp eye on it. >> Brent >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> > >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILBOAT-MAST-WITH-ROLLER-FURLING_W0QQitemZ150083897980QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> > >> > >> > Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling >> main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting >> concept, I wonder how well it works ? >> > Tom >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12605|12569|2007-01-28 17:51:09|edward_stoneuk|Re: Lake Superior Pics|The Great Lakes bulk carriers featured in a book on engineering stress and strain, which I read many years ago. From memory there had been several losses with all hands and the cause was unknown. Then another went down and among the survivors was the cook. For some time previously he had noticed a crack in the galley floor and noted the measurements down in a note book as it steadily grew longer day by day. Then the crack elongated faster and the boat broke in half and sank. The cook has taken his note book with him when he was rescued and following the inquiry the design fault was realised. The bulk carriers had been designed as if they were a load carrying beam made of a rectangular hollow section, which is what, in effect, they are. However no account had been taken of the stress concentration effect of the openings in the beam for the hatches. It was these stress concentrations that allowed the cracks to start and then propogate until catastrophic failure occured. I Googled to see if I could find the name of the book but to no avail, although I did find a reference to a bulk carrier that split open while it was being loaded! I do not think that any of the Great Lakes bulk carriers are or where origamiboats. Regards, Ted| 12607|12569|2007-01-29 13:38:33|keith_cociani|Re: Lake Superior Pics|Cracks on Great Lakes bulk carriers are not that uncommon. I was on the Capt. Henry Jackman last August and the lockmaster noticed a crack in the hull while we were going through the Seaway en-route to Quebec city. We had it welded up on arrival. The officers on the ships I have worked on are very conciensious of any signs of failure and were careful to stay on top of said issues. It does make you think though when working on said ships... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > The Great Lakes bulk carriers featured in a book on engineering > stress and strain, which I read many years ago. From memory there > had been several losses with all hands and the cause was unknown. > Then another went down and among the survivors was the cook. For > some time previously he had noticed a crack in the galley floor and > noted the measurements down in a note book as it steadily grew > longer day by day. Then the crack elongated faster and the boat > broke in half and sank. The cook has taken his note book with him > when he was rescued and following the inquiry the design fault was > realised. The bulk carriers had been designed as if they were a > load carrying beam made of a rectangular hollow section, which is > what, in effect, they are. However no account had been taken of the > stress concentration effect of the openings in the beam for the > hatches. It was these stress concentrations that allowed the cracks > to start and then propogate until catastrophic failure occured. I > Googled to see if I could find the name of the book but to no avail, > although I did find a reference to a bulk carrier that split open > while it was being loaded! I do not think that any of the Great > Lakes bulk carriers are or where origamiboats. > Regards, > Ted > | 12608|12583|2007-01-29 14:12:58|brentswain38|Re: interesting mast setup|Slab reefing is so easy. I can tie a reef in in under a minute. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Seer > Yes someone did ask him why he was selling and he said his boat was > totaled in the storm. > Im not considering buying that one it would be to heavy on the 26. > Compensating for the out of column compression could be delt with but the > chafe problem could be tricky. If a guy had to listen to the luff slapping > the mast all day it would drive you nuts. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "seeratlas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:01 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting mast setup > > > >I agree. furthermore the large compression is going to be out of > > column which is even worse. The efficiency of the sail is going to be > > questionable also as looks to me that the arrangement is going to > > induce a lot of turbulence and push the 'power' in the sail even > > further aft than normal. I've been on a few large boats that use > > vertical furling, but seems overkill on a 35/36 footer. Send him a > > letter asking why its for sale and the boat isn't :) hehehe > > > > seer > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > >> > >> That arrangement put a large compression load on the mast so you would > >> want to have a stiff mast and keep an eye on its bending > >> charactreristics in a strong wind. Perhaps the ease of reefing would > >> compensate for this. There could be a lot of chafe with the rig > >> partially reefed working its way back and forth across the mast , > >> shrouds and spreaders . You'd want a good spreader patch on the > >> mainsail and wonder if that would be enough for long passages. You'd > >> want to keep a sharp eye on it. > >> Brent > >> > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILBOAT-MAST-WITH-ROLLER-FURLING_W0QQitemZ150083897980QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >> > > >> > > >> > Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling > >> main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting > >> concept, I wonder how well it works ? > >> > Tom > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12609|12583|2007-01-29 17:19:53|Gerd|Re: interesting mast setup|In- or behind- the mast roller reefing is terrible. I did several delivery trips on boat between 50 and 80' with top notch roller mast equipment, hydraulic winches and all that stuff, and I would not fit mast rollers if I was paid for it: - The lifting area of the sail, already disturbed by the eddies aft of the mast, has a very crappy, wrinkly profile - you can not tighten the luff when reefed, which is when you want it most - lots of nasty weight up top - can't have a properly cut sail, in most cases sails are cut triangular, no roach, no battens... - if ever something goes wrong you are in deep trouble If you absolutely need roller reefing for the main, roll it into the boom, at least then you keep the weight low. One such system I saw on a 65' even had full length battens that were rolled right into the boom, but even then sail shape is not really optimal. As Brent says, slab reefing is fast, simple, cheap, and can't go wrong. If you want, you can add full battens and lazyjacks without problems, you get a great profile in all configurations and there is really no reason at all to fit anything else on the size of boats that we are talking about here. Or, if I really get THAT old and lauzy, I'll fit a junkrig ;-) Gerd The YAGO PROJECT at http//www.yago-project.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Slab reefing is so easy. I can tie a reef in in under a minute. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello Seer > > Yes someone did ask him why he was selling and he said his boat was > > totaled in the storm. > > Im not considering buying that one it would be to heavy on the 26. > > Compensating for the out of column compression could be delt with > but the > > chafe problem could be tricky. If a guy had to listen to the luff > slapping > > the mast all day it would drive you nuts. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "seeratlas" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:01 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interesting mast setup > > > > > > >I agree. furthermore the large compression is going to be out of > > > column which is even worse. The efficiency of the sail is going to be > > > questionable also as looks to me that the arrangement is going to > > > induce a lot of turbulence and push the 'power' in the sail even > > > further aft than normal. I've been on a few large boats that use > > > vertical furling, but seems overkill on a 35/36 footer. Send him a > > > letter asking why its for sale and the boat isn't :) hehehe > > > > > > seer > > > > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> That arrangement put a large compression load on the mast so you > would > > >> want to have a stiff mast and keep an eye on its bending > > >> charactreristics in a strong wind. Perhaps the ease of reefing would > > >> compensate for this. There could be a lot of chafe with the rig > > >> partially reefed working its way back and forth across the mast , > > >> shrouds and spreaders . You'd want a good spreader patch on the > > >> mainsail and wonder if that would be enough for long passages. You'd > > >> want to keep a sharp eye on it. > > >> Brent > > >> > > >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILBOAT-MAST-WITH-ROLLER- FURLING_W0QQitemZ150083897980QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI tem > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Here is a link to a 40' mast for sale on ebay, has roller furling > > >> main and it looks simulare to a head sail furling unit. interesting > > >> concept, I wonder how well it works ? > > >> > Tom > > >> > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12610|12569|2007-01-30 17:57:17|Alex Christie|Re: Lake Superior Pics|I have had a few questions posed to me about the use of steel for building a steel yacht, where the person points to issues like cracks in large vessels as a negative against steel. I think I might even have asked the same question of Brent eons ago when I first met him and interrogated him at length about steel boats :-) Now to those who ask I point out that for the tiny size of a steel sailboat, compared to the lakes freighter, the yacht hull is heavily over-engineered and super stiff with its boxed in monocoque-like structure. There just isn't enough hull flex on a short little steel boat to cause stress cracks. The same question goes for corrosion: The lakes freighter doesn't want to lose any thickness of steel if it can help it, but it does over time, and that is calculated into the service life of the vessel, whereas the private steel yacht has a lot of thickness to play with while still retaining good scantlings. Of course, a modern coatings system on a private yacht really encapsulates the skin and loss of thickness isn't really an issue anyhow. It's just strange how people compare long flex-o-matic commercial crack-infested ships with short little stiff properly-built yacht hulls! Not that anyone here is, but it's something to keep in mind. The lakes freighters stories are very interesting, all the same (and scary!). I've changed my mind about any notion of a career on such a vessel! Alex On 29-Jan-07, at 10:32 AM, keith_cociani wrote: > Cracks on Great Lakes bulk carriers are not that uncommon. I was on > the Capt. Henry Jackman last August and the lockmaster noticed a crack > in the hull while we were going through the Seaway en-route to Quebec > city. We had it welded up on arrival. The officers on the ships I have > worked on are very conciensious of any signs of failure and were > careful to stay on top of said issues. It does make you think though > when working on said ships... > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > > > The Great Lakes bulk carriers featured in a book on engineering > > stress and strain, which I read many years ago. From memory there > > had been several losses with all hands and the cause was unknown. > > Then another went down and among the survivors was the cook. For > > some time previously he had noticed a crack in the galley floor and > > noted the measurements down in a note book as it steadily grew > > longer day by day. Then the crack elongated faster and the boat > > broke in half and sank. The cook has taken his note book with him > > when he was rescued and following the inquiry the design fault was > > realised. The bulk carriers had been designed as if they were a > > load carrying beam made of a rectangular hollow section, which is > > what, in effect, they are. However no account had been taken of the > > stress concentration effect of the openings in the beam for the > > hatches. It was these stress concentrations that allowed the cracks > > to start and then propogate until catastrophic failure occured. I > > Googled to see if I could find the name of the book but to no avail, > > although I did find a reference to a bulk carrier that split open > > while it was being loaded! I do not think that any of the Great > > Lakes bulk carriers are or where origamiboats. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12611|12583|2007-01-30 20:06:19|ANDREW AIREY|Re: interesting mast setup|All this cheers me up no end since I've recently bought a 1950 wooden 26footer with roller reefing on the boom.I was hoping that the advantage was that you could reef the main from the cockpit although since the jibs are hanked on you still have to go forward to change them cheers Andy Airey Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 12612|12569|2007-01-31 00:34:09|keith_cociani|Re: Lake Superior Pics|Alex, I agree with you that Origami steel sailboat bear little comparison to lakes freighters. The whole purpose of a freaghter is to make as much money for its owners by hauling as much cargo as it can given very limited draughts. (about 27') Cargo loading and trim is a very black art and things are usually taken to their limits by the first mate. Hours are spent trying to get every last drop out of ballast tanks and heavy sprinklers are hualed out to shrink the hull and remove any sag from the hull when going through the locks. When you are in heavy weather the flexing of the hull is shockingto the un-initiated. There was an Algoma ship, though I forget which one which was misloaded a few years ago. She broke right in half right at the dock and sank. The water was less than 30' deep and nobody was hurt. The ship was fixed and the mate fired. The thing about steel ships is that they can be fixed. With proper maintanence they can be in service for many years. The CLS ship Halifax is around 70 years old and is still steam powered! Far more dangerous than Canadian ships which are layed up every year and generally well maintained are Flag of convienience deep sea ships which nowadays are designed to last only 15 years and then scraped. (In very nasty breaking yards in the third world) These ships are run in salt water 12 months of the year and are maintained as little as possible. I am treading dangerously into the world of politics here so I will stop. Steel is strong and flexible. It even works for decades in ships which are really pushed to brutal limits. With minimal common sense maintanence we have nothing to worry about with our little yachts. P.S. I hope I don't have to go back to the lakes this year. I am hoping to get on in the artic.| 12613|12583|2007-01-31 04:04:28|sae140|Re: interesting mast setup|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >> If you absolutely need roller reefing for the main, roll it into the >> boom, at least then you keep the weight low. One such system I saw on >> a 65' even had full length battens that were rolled right into the >> boom, but even then sail shape is not really optimal.> > All this cheers me up no end since I've recently > bought a 1950 wooden 26footer with roller reefing on > the boom.I was hoping that the advantage was that you > could reef the main from the cockpit although since > the jibs are hanked on you still have to go forward to > change them cheers Andy Airey Around-the-boom roller reefing was fashionable around the 50's-60's. I've got such a system on a Kingfisher 20 'project boat' (which may never see the water again). There's a worm-screw mechanism at the inner boom end which rotates the boom relative to the gooseneck fitting by courtesy of a detachable handle, so reefing of the main on this particular system is still performed from on deck. It's necessary to disconnect the vang/kicking-strap from the boom beforehand and reconnect this to a wheeled boom-horsehoe which then runs over the sail bundle. Mainsail shape when reefed is pretty poor. Colin| 12614|12569|2007-01-31 05:25:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Lake Superior Pics|I have never seen any flexing whatsover in my BS 36. I have been on other so-called offshore boats and been amazed at what people will put up with. I have seen gaps in joinery approaching 1 inch on a good reputation offshore 42 footer and also experienced the whole hull flexing and twisting when pounding to windward. It doesn't give you much confidence. For more fantastic pictures go to www.shipspotting.com and then go to ships photos and then storm pics. You can sort them by popularity and also download some pretty high resolution photos. Happy hunting. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: keith_cociani To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:30:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Lake Superior Pics Alex, I agree with you that Origami steel sailboat bear little comparison to lakes freighters. The whole purpose of a freaghter is to make as much money for its owners by hauling as much cargo as it can given very limited draughts. (about 27') Cargo loading and trim is a very black art and things are usually taken to their limits by the first mate. Hours are spent trying to get every last drop out of ballast tanks and heavy sprinklers are hualed out to shrink the hull and remove any sag from the hull when going through the locks. When you are in heavy weather the flexing of the hull is shockingto the un-initiated. There was an Algoma ship, though I forget which one which was misloaded a few years ago. She broke right in half right at the dock and sank. The water was less than 30' deep and nobody was hurt. The ship was fixed and the mate fired. The thing about steel ships is that they can be fixed. With proper maintanence they can be in service for many years. The CLS ship Halifax is around 70 years old and is still steam powered! Far more dangerous than Canadian ships which are layed up every year and generally well maintained are Flag of convienience deep sea ships which nowadays are designed to last only 15 years and then scraped. (In very nasty breaking yards in the third world) These ships are run in salt water 12 months of the year and are maintained as little as possible. I am treading dangerously into the world of politics here so I will stop. Steel is strong and flexible. It even works for decades in ships which are really pushed to brutal limits. With minimal common sense maintanence we have nothing to worry about with our little yachts. P.S. I hope I don't have to go back to the lakes this year. I am hoping to get on in the artic. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12615|12615|2007-01-31 15:53:54|mickeyolaf|Carbon Fiber Masts|Has anyone ever had any experience with masts of carbon fiber? I have been looking at them on the internet. Seems they can be 50% lighter than aluminum but more expensive. What I am really trying to find out is how durable they are. Compression strength? Resistance to impact? Do they suffer UV damage long term in the sun? Do they crack at stress points? The racing boat behind us now has an aluminum spar but he originally had carbon spars. He broke two of them and went back to aluminum. But he said he broke them because he has no back stay and uses runners to keep tension on the mast and adjust bend. Which didn't work out well with carbon masts. (Too slow to tension the runners?) At least with aluminum u know it will dent, stress crack, corrode, flake off paint, conduct etc. With carbon I will have to research the pitfalls but I like the 50% lighter idea. Since I plan to only buy one mast for this boat of mine I would like to get it right. If the differance between carbon and aluminum doesn't cause me to have to take out a mortgage I may consider it if the pro's exceed the con's. As I have said before I have had quotes for an aluminum mast right up to $12,000.00. A bare tube 47'@ $3100.00 US from California. Actually the best price was from Ballenger Spars in San Jose, Ca. $6800 US complete. US Spars was $6300.00 US but a huge shipping bill from Florida to BC.| 12616|12615|2007-01-31 18:03:59|edward_stoneuk|Re: Carbon Fiber Masts|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Has anyone ever had any experience with masts of carbon fiber? I have > been looking at them on the internet. Seems they can be 50% lighter > than aluminum but more expensive. Mickey, Message #9053 in the Junkrig forum gives a link to an article on carbon mast concerns that should be of interest. Regards, Ted| 12617|12617|2007-01-31 21:31:45|shaunbarrymcmillan|carbon masts-why would you want one (keep it smple)|I think that when the average person (not independently wealthy) wants to sail there is much to be said for KISS. Small extra costs have a way of adding up, and, a carbon mast is not a small ticket item. I think that people like Brent have the right idea, just get out there and gain experience and freedom. My second boat will be a Contessa 26, small, cheaper, and seakindly--let someone else take the deppreciation. Back to DIY and simple stuff--you could probably build a steel or aluminium mast from pipe stock that would be very adequate, all it takes is getting started| 12618|12615|2007-01-31 21:42:12|J Fisher|Re: Carbon Fiber Masts|Carbon masts were a hot topic a couple of years back on the 505's. Some of the carbon mast builders made up a mast which was in 2 pcs and much stronger than an aluminum one for the same weight. Unfortunately it was not approved for the class. Carbon does suffer UV damage unless protected. It is much stiffer and stronger than aluminum and does not get bent. When it fails it just lets go so you don't get the warning you would with steel or aluminum. I need to do some checking, but I would think you could almost buy a die and get a mast extruded for what the yacht brokers are charging for masts. Extruded aluminum should go for $2 to $3/lb. John -------Original Message------- From: mickeyolaf Date: 1/31/2007 1:53:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Carbon Fiber Masts Has anyone ever had any experience with masts of carbon fiber? I have been looking at them on the internet. Seems they can be 50% lighter than aluminum but more expensive. What I am really trying to find out is how durable they are. Compression strength? Resistance to impact? Do they suffer UV damage long term in the sun? Do they crack at stress points? The racing boat behind us now has an aluminum spar but he originally had carbon spars. He broke two of them and went back to aluminum. But he said he broke them because he has no back stay and uses runners to keep tension on the mast and adjust bend. Which didn't work out well with carbon masts. (Too slow to tension the runners?) At least with aluminum u know it will dent, stress crack, corrode, flake off paint, conduct etc. With carbon I will have to research the pitfalls but I like the 50% lighter idea. Since I plan to only buy one mast for this boat of mine I would like to get it right. If the differance between carbon and aluminum doesn't cause me to have to take out a mortgage I may consider it if the pro's exceed the con's. As I have said before I have had quotes for an aluminum mast right up to $12,000.00. A bare tube 47'@ $3100.00 US from California. Actually the best price was from Ballenger Spars in San Jose, Ca. $6800 US complete. US Spars was $6300.00 US but a huge shipping bill from Florida to BC. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12619|12619|2007-02-01 11:26:17|sailparpar|online cruising community|hi everybody, i just found out that my website, www.sailnomads.com comes with a free forum, where you can create topics, post messages, create a profile.... feel free to check it out, i am leaving it unlocked, so that all of us cruising sailors can create topics and discussions about anything regarding our cruising lifestyle....pass it on and enjoy. Locky Click the link to sailing forum on sailnomads.com or go direct www.sailnomads.com/phpbb2 or find it on the links page of origamiboats| 12620|12617|2007-02-01 17:45:43|mickeyolaf|Re: carbon masts-why would you want one (keep it smple)|I've done so well with all of my boat parts bought from bankrupt stores and swap meets and the buy and sell etc that I am really pleased with the amount spent so far compared to what I think I could sell her for. I agree that Brent has good ideas. But I bought a complete rigged new anodised boom ready to mount for $350. All I need now is a $350 mast. I have asked a sparmaker for a quote for a carbon mast (no boom) to match the SW 36 mast specs. I will supply all of the hardware on it (from my scrounging). I'll post the quote as soon as I receive it. What's your quess? If it is close to the aluminum price I will go carbon. I doubt it will be though. I also believe in the KISS principle. "Andes" will be pretty basic. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > I think that when the average person (not independently wealthy) wants > to sail there is much to be said for KISS. Small extra costs have a way > of adding up, and, a carbon mast is not a small ticket item. I think > that people like Brent have the right idea, just get out there and gain > experience and freedom. My second boat will be a Contessa 26, small, > cheaper, and seakindly--let someone else take the deppreciation. Back > to DIY and simple stuff--you could probably build a steel or aluminium > mast from pipe stock that would be very adequate, all it takes is > getting started > | 12621|12563|2007-02-01 19:32:42|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Weather Fax|GRIB files are delivered worldwide via HF radio using Airmail/Sailmail/Winlink 2k, along with regular email. See http://www.winlink.org Using Airmail you just lasso the area of the globe you are interested in, click the forecasts you want, and connect via HF to a ground station. Viola. Works like a dream, especially compared to the "bad old days", trying to sync weather fax direct from the HF. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 3:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Weather Fax You could also request free GRIB files via mail. Have a look at http://www.grib. us/ for free viewer and more info, and at http://www.globalma rinenet.net/grib.htm to see how to request a GRIB file by mail for any wordlwide area. Forecasts are very deailed, and can be for several days. Gerd The Yago project at http://www.yago- project.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12622|12563|2007-02-01 19:53:34|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Weather Fax|This service (weather and email) is totally free with an amateur radio license and available worldwide. You need a HF radio, Pactor modem, and a computer. With the new amateur license standards, everyone thinking about going offshore should look into this. An amateur radio license is one of the best investments in your time if you are heading offshore. AC7HE _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@... Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Weather Fax GRIB files are delivered worldwide via HF radio using Airmail/Sailmail/Winlink 2k, along with regular email. See http://www.winlink. org org/> Using Airmail you just lasso the area of the globe you are interested in, click the forecasts you want, and connect via HF to a ground station. Viola. Works like a dream, especially compared to the "bad old days", trying to sync weather fax direct from the HF. g _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 3:58 PM To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Weather Fax You could also request free GRIB files via mail. Have a look at http://www.grib. us/> us/ for free viewer and more info, and at http://www.globalma rinenet.net/grib.htm> rinenet.net/grib.htm to see how to request a GRIB file by mail for any wordlwide area. Forecasts are very deailed, and can be for several days. Gerd The Yago project at http://www.yago- project.com> project.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12623|12516|2007-02-01 20:20:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|I've seen skeg hung rudders with a bolted flange attaching the rudder to the shaft, allowing the rudder to be removed without removing the shaft. For a spade, it you run the bearing tube from the hull to the deck, there are no seals to deal with, the rudder can be tiller driven, and dropped out in water and replaced without any problem. One of the mind sets to be overcome when cruising is the idea that work on the boat has to be done on the land. The more repairs that can be done without putting the boat on the hard the better. Lots of places it is near impossible to put the boat on the hard - if you are even near land. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 Seer - the scantling for the rudders is laid out for rudders without skeg, and very solidly so. We then decided to have skegs in addition to that, slotted into the hull and taken with additional webbing bound into the structure, which means that you would more or less have to rip the entire aft hull off if you want to cause damage... ;-) But yes, if and in the unlikely case that you need to service them you would need to lift the hull enough to be able to drop the shafts out. In this respect, a transom hung rudder like on the Yago 31 is easier to handle. Gerd The Yago-Poject at http://www.yago- project.com --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when you > hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's > design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in > Langkawi. > > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation is the > > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more > difficult to > > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, twin > > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering Garys' > > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following sea. > > > > > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind against > current > > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken > lightly - this > > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the > worst for > > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long > as the > > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In > scale, it > > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning to > do much > > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, and the > > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most dinghies fly > > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to broach, no > > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to > leeward. Stick > > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will spin > around > > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Gerd > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been > > working on for some months now: > > > > http://www.yago- > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/> > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. > > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a > > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom > > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel > > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular > > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking > > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > > > enjoy ;-) > > > > Gerd > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12624|12516|2007-02-02 10:19:38|Carl Volkwein|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|I saw a rudder that had a double flange on the top and bottom, it was a round thing with bolt holes going all around, had one half on the rudder, and one half on the shaft, with one pare on the top, and one pair on the bottom of the rudder. You could take the bolts out, and remove the rudder, and the two on the shaft would still be rite where you left them, one on top, and one on the bottom. When you fix the rudder, just slide it back between the other flanges, then put the bolts back in, I don't know if I explained this well enough, but in a picture it looked real simple. Carl Volkwein ge@... wrote: I've seen skeg hung rudders with a bolted flange attaching the rudder to the shaft, allowing the rudder to be removed without removing the shaft. For a spade, it you run the bearing tube from the hull to the deck, there are no seals to deal with, the rudder can be tiller driven, and dropped out in water and replaced without any problem. One of the mind sets to be overcome when cruising is the idea that work on the boat has to be done on the land. The more repairs that can be done without putting the boat on the hard the better. Lots of places it is near impossible to put the boat on the hard - if you are even near land. g _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerd Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 Seer - the scantling for the rudders is laid out for rudders without skeg, and very solidly so. We then decided to have skegs in addition to that, slotted into the hull and taken with additional webbing bound into the structure, which means that you would more or less have to rip the entire aft hull off if you want to cause damage... ;-) But yes, if and in the unlikely case that you need to service them you would need to lift the hull enough to be able to drop the shafts out. In this respect, a transom hung rudder like on the Yago 31 is easier to handle. Gerd The Yago-Poject at http://www.yago- project.com --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when you > hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's > design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. > seer > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in > Langkawi. > > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation is the > > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more > difficult to > > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, twin > > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering Garys' > > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following sea. > > > > > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind against > current > > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken > lightly - this > > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the > worst for > > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long > as the > > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In > scale, it > > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning to > do much > > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, and the > > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most dinghies fly > > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to broach, no > > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to > leeward. Stick > > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will spin > around > > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > [mailto:origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Gerd > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have been > > working on for some months now: > > > > http://www.yago- > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/> > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago 31. > > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it is a > > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the transom > > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a keel > > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this particular > > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self tacking > > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > > > enjoy ;-) > > > > Gerd > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12625|12516|2007-02-02 18:09:01|brentswain38|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|I did a rudder this way recently. There is no need for a machined coupling as it isn't doing a lot of rpms. Just weld one plate to the rudder and the other to the bottom of the top shaft. Make sure the weld has a lot of penetration and lots of metal on it. Gussets betweent he bolts is a good idea. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Volkwein wrote: > > I saw a rudder that had a double flange on the top and bottom, it was a round thing with bolt holes going all around, had one half on the rudder, and one half on the shaft, with one pare on the top, and one pair on the bottom of the rudder. You could take the bolts out, and remove the rudder, and the two on the shaft would still be rite where you left them, one on top, and one on the bottom. When you fix the rudder, just slide it back between the other flanges, then put the bolts back in, I don't know if I explained this well enough, but in a picture it looked real simple. > Carl Volkwein > > ge@... wrote: > I've seen skeg hung rudders with a bolted flange attaching the rudder to the > shaft, allowing the rudder to be removed without removing the shaft. > > For a spade, it you run the bearing tube from the hull to the deck, there > are no seals to deal with, the rudder can be tiller driven, and dropped out > in water and replaced without any problem. > > One of the mind sets to be overcome when cruising is the idea that work on > the boat has to be done on the land. The more repairs that can be done > without putting the boat on the hard the better. Lots of places it is near > impossible to put the boat on the hard - if you are even near land. > > g > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:55 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > Seer - the scantling for the rudders is laid out for rudders without > skeg, and very solidly so. We then decided to have skegs in addition > to that, slotted into the hull and taken with additional webbing > bound into the structure, which means that you would more or less > have to rip the entire aft hull off if you want to cause damage... ;-) > But yes, if and in the unlikely case that you need to service them > you would need to lift the hull enough to be able to drop the shafts > out. In this respect, a transom hung rudder like on the Yago 31 is > easier to handle. > > Gerd > The Yago-Poject at http://www.yago- > project.com > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when > you > > hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's > > design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in > > Langkawi. > > > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation > is the > > > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more > > difficult to > > > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, > twin > > > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering > Garys' > > > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following > sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind > against > > current > > > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken > > lightly - this > > > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the > > worst for > > > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long > > as the > > > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In > > scale, it > > > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning > to > > do much > > > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, > and the > > > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most > dinghies fly > > > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to > broach, no > > > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to > > leeward. Stick > > > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will > spin > > around > > > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Gerd > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have > been > > > working on for some months now: > > > > > > http://www.yago- > > > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/> > > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > > > > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago > 31. > > > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it > is a > > > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the > transom > > > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a > keel > > > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this > particular > > > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self > tacking > > > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > > > > > enjoy ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > > project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your own web address. > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12626|12626|2007-02-02 21:35:37|Tom|stainless for dry exhaust|Hello all I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to put a flex pipe near the engine. I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12627|12626|2007-02-02 22:12:14|Paul Wilson|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can keep a complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed plumbing fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have heard that the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe somebody could confirm this. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust Hello all I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to put a flex pipe near the engine. I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12628|12626|2007-02-02 23:11:03|Tom|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|Thanks Paul Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when replacing ? I guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in the transom with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless plate to the pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust >I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can keep a >complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed plumbing >fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have heard that >the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe somebody could >confirm this. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > Hello all > I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called > around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was > over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway > would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? > I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed > down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is > sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to put > a flex pipe near the engine. > I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with > pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape > than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12629|12626|2007-02-03 00:29:08|Paul Wilson|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|Sorry for the confusion. I have about a 2 1/2 foot section of galvanized pipe (elbows and straight sections) with water injection coming from a 1/2 inch Jabsco pump belted off the engine. All of this goes into a water lift muffler I made out of fiberglass through a short section of hose. I then use rubber hose the rest of the way under the floors and out the transom. My engine is mounted under the galley sink in the center of the boatso I couldn't go with a complete dry exhaust because I figured it would be too hot through all the woodwork. On the transom it is a welded stainless standpipe which is painted and never been a problem. I launched in 1992. I guess since it stays cold and never has had bare metal exposed it works OK. I would have loved to have a dry exhaust and bypassed the need for the pump but couldn't figure out how to do it due to everything being so tight. The first piece usually to need replacing is the 6 inch nipple that has the water injection going into it. I keep a close eye on it and always carry a spare. You can get the fittings anywhere and they are cheap enough you can have a second set always at hand. If I change it, I normally make two more and carry some elbows and pipes for the rest of the system. You can replace the whole works in an isolated anchorage with nothing needed other than a couple of pipe wrenches and some persuasion with a hammer. Cheers, Paul --- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:10:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust Thanks Paul Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when replacing ? I guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in the transom with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless plate to the pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust >I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can keep a >complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed plumbing >fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have heard that >the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe somebody could >confirm this. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > Hello all > I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called > around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was > over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway > would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? > I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed > down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is > sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to put > a flex pipe near the engine. > I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with > pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape > than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12630|12630|2007-02-03 07:19:29|green_cabbiage|Are you crazy for age gap relationships?|I'm attractive, hot, laidback, serious, a good listener... Hope we can find no age gap chemistry. And I found a good place for Older Women and Younger Men, or Older men and Younger women to set up age gap relationships. http://www.freewebs.com/dreamdays/index.htm| 12631|12626|2007-02-03 09:36:14|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 08:10:10PM -0800, Tom wrote: > Thanks Paul > Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when replacing ? I > guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in the transom > with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless plate to the > pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. That's exactly how my dry exhaust is attached. My exhaust pipe runs along the hull to starboard, turns to port just short of the stern, and goes up/athwartships/down (an upside-down U to prevent the water from coming in), turns astern, and exits the hull. The original exhaust pipe, where it went through the stern, had rotted out due to the salt water that sat in there after splashing in. I cut the pipe off at the first riser, about 18" up, had a local muffler shop make up an elbow to fit, welded the end of it into a plate, cut a square hole in the hull, and bolted it all down with a bit of fiberglass matting and high-temp RTV as a gasket around the edges. I also used the RTV where the two pipes slid into each other (a nice friction fit; the muffler shop did a good job. I didn't even need a U-clamp.) If it ever goes bad, it'll just be a matter of replacing that elbow in the plate - a *hell* of a lot less hassle than the original version. Oh, and I had them make the elbow a little more open than 90 degrees - this leaves the pipe sloping slightly downward rather than dead horizontal, which makes any water that gets in there drain out immediately. A pretty good system, as far as I'm concerned. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * *| 12632|12626|2007-02-03 09:48:30|Tom|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|Yes I wouldnt run dry exhaust eather if I was running it threw wood or even close to it. On the 26 the exhaust pipe is only about 4' to the transom and there is nothing in the way. What I am figuring is if I can get a streight shot from above the engine to the transom is to run an outer sleave pipe on the streight part and water cool the pipe, eather way the cooling water has to be plumed to the rear of the skeg so why not use it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > Sorry for the confusion. I have about a 2 1/2 foot section of galvanized > pipe (elbows and straight sections) with water injection coming from a 1/2 > inch Jabsco pump belted off the engine. All of this goes into a water > lift muffler I made out of fiberglass through a short section of hose. I > then use rubber hose the rest of the way under the floors and out the > transom. My engine is mounted under the galley sink in the center of the > boatso I couldn't go with a complete dry exhaust because I figured it > would be too hot through all the woodwork. On the transom it is a welded > stainless standpipe which is painted and never been a problem. I launched > in 1992. I guess since it stays cold and never has had bare metal exposed > it works OK. I would have loved to have a dry exhaust and bypassed the > need for the pump but couldn't figure out how to do it due to everything > being so tight. The first piece usually to need replacing is the 6 inch > nipple that has the water injection > going into it. I keep a close eye on it and always carry a spare. You > can get the fittings anywhere and they are cheap enough you can have a > second set always at hand. If I change it, I normally make two more and > carry some elbows and pipes for the rest of the system. You can replace > the whole works in an isolated anchorage with nothing needed other than a > couple of pipe wrenches and some persuasion with a hammer. > > Cheers, Paul > > --- Original Message ---- > From: Tom > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:10:10 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > Thanks Paul > Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when replacing ? I > guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in the > transom > with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless plate to > the > pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Wilson" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:10 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > >>I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can keep a >>complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed plumbing >>fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have heard that >>the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe somebody could >>confirm this. >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Tom >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM >> Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust >> >> Hello all >> I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called >> around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was >> over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway >> would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? >> I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed >> down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is >> sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to >> put >> a flex pipe near the engine. >> I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with >> pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape >> than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. >> Tom >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ >> It's here! Your new message! >> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. >> http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/ >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12633|12633|2007-02-03 14:38:04|Tom|BS 26 test fit engine|Hello All Sense I have had a few people asking questions about the space for an engine, I posted a couple pictures af the volvo sitting on the beds in origamiboats2 toms BS26 . Not a lot of room but enough, about a 1/2" clearance both sides comming down through companion way. I need to cut the cross brace a little deeper for the flywheel to clear, other than that it looks ok. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12634|12626|2007-02-03 21:39:19|mickeyolaf|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|We had a wood burning insert installed in our home yesterday. The flu is double wall (ceramic insulated) stainless pipe. I was quite impressed with the quality of the stainless and immediately had the thought that it would work well as a surrounding blanket for a marine dry exhaust pipe. A marine diesel exhaust pipe centered in this double wall pipe would be absolutely safe going thru wood as the flu pipe comes with mounting brackets which hold the flu pipe in the center of a thru hole allowing 2" of clearance from the wood. I asked the installer how hot the flu pipe will get when I have the fire going and he said "warm". The flu pipe has various stainless elbows available @ 15,30, & 45 degrees. 48" sections of the flu pipe are $181 CDN. 18" sections are $74. This product would be ideal to insulate and surround a dry exhaust installation. Zero fire hazard. Non rusting. Easy to disassemble to check it's health. I did "Andes" exhaust with a blower driven air cooled dry exhaust but if I had to do it again I would use this product and skip the blower. Much simpler. I bet u could hold your hand on that flu pipe when the engine was running. Food for thought. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yes I wouldnt run dry exhaust eather if I was running it threw wood or even > close to it. On the 26 the exhaust pipe is only about 4' to the transom and > there is nothing in the way. What I am figuring is if I can get a streight > shot from above the engine to the transom is to run an outer sleave pipe on > the streight part and water cool the pipe, eather way the cooling water has > to be plumed to the rear of the skeg so why not use it. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Wilson" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:29 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > Sorry for the confusion. I have about a 2 1/2 foot section of galvanized > > pipe (elbows and straight sections) with water injection coming from a 1/2 > > inch Jabsco pump belted off the engine. All of this goes into a water > > lift muffler I made out of fiberglass through a short section of hose. I > > then use rubber hose the rest of the way under the floors and out the > > transom. My engine is mounted under the galley sink in the center of the > > boatso I couldn't go with a complete dry exhaust because I figured it > > would be too hot through all the woodwork. On the transom it is a welded > > stainless standpipe which is painted and never been a problem. I launched > > in 1992. I guess since it stays cold and never has had bare metal exposed > > it works OK. I would have loved to have a dry exhaust and bypassed the > > need for the pump but couldn't figure out how to do it due to everything > > being so tight. The first piece usually to need replacing is the 6 inch > > nipple that has the water injection > > going into it. I keep a close eye on it and always carry a spare. You > > can get the fittings anywhere and they are cheap enough you can have a > > second set always at hand. If I change it, I normally make two more and > > carry some elbows and pipes for the rest of the system. You can replace > > the whole works in an isolated anchorage with nothing needed other than a > > couple of pipe wrenches and some persuasion with a hammer. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > --- Original Message ---- > > From: Tom > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:10:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > > > Thanks Paul > > Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when replacing ? I > > guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in the > > transom > > with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless plate to > > the > > pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Wilson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > >>I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can keep a > >>complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed plumbing > >>fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have heard that > >>the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe somebody could > >>confirm this. > >> > >> Cheers, Paul > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Tom > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > >> > >> Hello all > >> I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called > >> around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was > >> over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway > >> would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? > >> I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed > >> down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is > >> sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to > >> put > >> a flex pipe near the engine. > >> I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with > >> pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape > >> than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. > >> Tom > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > >> It's here! Your new message! > >> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > >> http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/ > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > > Don't pick lemons. > > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12635|12615|2007-02-05 12:42:05|khooper_fboats|FRP Spectra [was: Re: Carbon Fiber Masts]|Has anybody ever heard of making spars in a layup from Spectra or one of the other polyethylenes? It's not as strong as carbon but it's still very strong, it's lighter than carbon, and it looks to be less expensive. And when it fails it fails gently from what I'm reading. Am I nuts? --Ken| 12636|12636|2007-02-05 20:50:44|Gary|Alex Email...|Hi Alex... been trying to email you but keep bouncing back...something about your quota being full??? Anyway, drop me an email or a post.. Gary| 12637|12637|2007-02-05 23:38:51|aqwed16|Find nudist match in these hot singles with sexy nude photos!|Looking for friends and adult playmates to share nude clothes-free lifestyle? This's the best and largest online dating site for nudists/naturists! Find your lover easy and soon here! http://www.aboutme.com/users/nudistlove/NudistGirls.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12638|12626|2007-02-06 18:38:48|brentswain38|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|Stainless is excellent for a dry exhuast , a disaster for a wet exhuast. It keeps perfectly just up to the point where the water is ijected. There it corrodes badly. I have had the same thin walled stainless for a diesel exhuast for the last 22 years. Where the diesel mixes with water is where the problems happen. Dry, no problem. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > We had a wood burning insert installed in our home yesterday. The flu > is double wall (ceramic insulated) stainless pipe. I was quite > impressed with the quality of the stainless and immediately had the > thought that it would work well as a surrounding blanket for a marine > dry exhaust pipe. > A marine diesel exhaust pipe centered in this double wall pipe would > be absolutely safe going thru wood as the flu pipe comes with > mounting brackets which hold the flu pipe in the center of a thru > hole allowing 2" of clearance from the wood. I asked the installer > how hot the flu pipe will get when I have the fire going and he > said "warm". > The flu pipe has various stainless elbows available @ 15,30, & 45 > degrees. 48" sections of the flu pipe are $181 CDN. 18" sections are > $74. This product would be ideal to insulate and surround a dry > exhaust installation. Zero fire hazard. Non rusting. Easy to > disassemble to check it's health. I did "Andes" exhaust with a blower > driven air cooled dry exhaust but if I had to do it again I would use > this product and skip the blower. Much simpler. I bet u could hold > your hand on that flu pipe when the engine was running. > Food for thought. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Yes I wouldnt run dry exhaust eather if I was running it threw wood > or even > > close to it. On the 26 the exhaust pipe is only about 4' to the > transom and > > there is nothing in the way. What I am figuring is if I can get a > streight > > shot from above the engine to the transom is to run an outer sleave > pipe on > > the streight part and water cool the pipe, eather way the cooling > water has > > to be plumed to the rear of the skeg so why not use it. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Wilson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:29 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > > > > Sorry for the confusion. I have about a 2 1/2 foot section of > galvanized > > > pipe (elbows and straight sections) with water injection coming > from a 1/2 > > > inch Jabsco pump belted off the engine. All of this goes into a > water > > > lift muffler I made out of fiberglass through a short section of > hose. I > > > then use rubber hose the rest of the way under the floors and out > the > > > transom. My engine is mounted under the galley sink in the > center of the > > > boatso I couldn't go with a complete dry exhaust because I > figured it > > > would be too hot through all the woodwork. On the transom it is > a welded > > > stainless standpipe which is painted and never been a problem. I > launched > > > in 1992. I guess since it stays cold and never has had bare > metal exposed > > > it works OK. I would have loved to have a dry exhaust and > bypassed the > > > need for the pump but couldn't figure out how to do it due to > everything > > > being so tight. The first piece usually to need replacing is the > 6 inch > > > nipple that has the water injection > > > going into it. I keep a close eye on it and always carry a > spare. You > > > can get the fittings anywhere and they are cheap enough you can > have a > > > second set always at hand. If I change it, I normally make two > more and > > > carry some elbows and pipes for the rest of the system. You can > replace > > > the whole works in an isolated anchorage with nothing needed > other than a > > > couple of pipe wrenches and some persuasion with a hammer. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > --- Original Message ---- > > > From: Tom > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:10:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > > > > > > Thanks Paul > > > Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when > replacing ? I > > > guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in > the > > > transom > > > with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless > plate to > > > the > > > pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. > > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Paul Wilson" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:10 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > > >>I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can > keep a > > >>complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed > plumbing > > >>fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have > heard that > > >>the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe > somebody could > > >>confirm this. > > >> > > >> Cheers, Paul > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ---- > > >> From: Tom > > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >> Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM > > >> Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > >> > > >> Hello all > > >> I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I > called > > >> around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 > grade was > > >> over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that > price" anyway > > >> would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? > > >> I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom > elbowed > > >> down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing > different is > > >> sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I > need to > > >> put > > >> a flex pipe near the engine. > > >> I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling > system with > > >> pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot > better shape > > >> than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. > > >> Tom > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > >> It's here! Your new message! > > >> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > > >> http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/ > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > > > Don't pick lemons. > > > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12639|12626|2007-02-06 18:40:30|brentswain38|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|With a layer of house fibreglass insulation and a layer of 3 inch wide muffler tape smeared with silicone over that I can hold my hand on a dry exhuast which has been running for hours in the tropics. It doesn't even get warm. Making the plate for an inch or two around where the exhuast runs thru the transom is a good idea and eliminates a maintenance headache. Tacking a 2 inch long section of 6 inch stainless pipe around where the exhuast runs thru the transom makes a nice finish for the foam and the insulation. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Yes I wouldnt run dry exhaust eather if I was running it threw wood or even > close to it. On the 26 the exhaust pipe is only about 4' to the transom and > there is nothing in the way. What I am figuring is if I can get a streight > shot from above the engine to the transom is to run an outer sleave pipe on > the streight part and water cool the pipe, eather way the cooling water has > to be plumed to the rear of the skeg so why not use it. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Wilson" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:29 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > Sorry for the confusion. I have about a 2 1/2 foot section of galvanized > > pipe (elbows and straight sections) with water injection coming from a 1/2 > > inch Jabsco pump belted off the engine. All of this goes into a water > > lift muffler I made out of fiberglass through a short section of hose. I > > then use rubber hose the rest of the way under the floors and out the > > transom. My engine is mounted under the galley sink in the center of the > > boatso I couldn't go with a complete dry exhaust because I figured it > > would be too hot through all the woodwork. On the transom it is a welded > > stainless standpipe which is painted and never been a problem. I launched > > in 1992. I guess since it stays cold and never has had bare metal exposed > > it works OK. I would have loved to have a dry exhaust and bypassed the > > need for the pump but couldn't figure out how to do it due to everything > > being so tight. The first piece usually to need replacing is the 6 inch > > nipple that has the water injection > > going into it. I keep a close eye on it and always carry a spare. You > > can get the fittings anywhere and they are cheap enough you can have a > > second set always at hand. If I change it, I normally make two more and > > carry some elbows and pipes for the rest of the system. You can replace > > the whole works in an isolated anchorage with nothing needed other than a > > couple of pipe wrenches and some persuasion with a hammer. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > --- Original Message ---- > > From: Tom > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:10:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > > > > Thanks Paul > > Did you just weld in the pipe to transom and cut it out when replacing ? I > > guess a guy could weld in a about 6"x6" stainless plate flush in the > > transom > > with about a 2" hole in the center then weld a 5"x5" stainless plate to > > the > > pipe and then just bolt it in, kinda quick change system. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul Wilson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > > > >>I get 3 or 4 years out of galvanized pipe. It is cheap and I can keep a > >>complete spare on board. It is just made up of the normal screwed plumbing > >>fittings. Stainless steel is by no means stainless and I have heard that > >>the sulfur in diesel exhaust attacks the stainless. Maybe somebody could > >>confirm this. > >> > >> Cheers, Paul > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Tom > >> To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:35:29 AM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] stainless for dry exhaust > >> > >> Hello all > >> I have been getting things ready for the engine installation, I called > >> around and to get a 20' length of 1-1/4 sch 40 pipe in a 316 grade was > >> over $300 " seems like I should get a kiss with it at that price" anyway > >> would a 304-L or 304 grade work allso? > >> I am planing on setting it up like Brents streight threw transom elbowed > >> down under water and elbowed aft. The only thing I am doing different is > >> sense I am useing the original flexable mounts on the engine I need to > >> put > >> a flex pipe near the engine. > >> I ran the volvo today on the floor and flushed the cooling system with > >> pool acid, it was sea water cooled. everything is in a lot better shape > >> than I expected and it runs pretty smooth for being a 2 cylinder. > >> Tom > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > >> It's here! Your new message! > >> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > >> http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/ > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Don't pick lemons. > > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12640|12619|2007-02-06 19:47:38|brentswain38|Re: online cruising community|I tried to register. When I tried the password I gave them they said it was invalid. Gave up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sailparpar" wrote: > > hi everybody, > i just found out that my website, www.sailnomads.com comes with a free > forum, where you can create topics, post messages, create a profile.... > feel free to check it out, i am leaving it unlocked, so that all of us > cruising sailors can create topics and discussions about anything > regarding our cruising lifestyle....pass it on and enjoy. > > Locky > > Click the link to sailing forum on sailnomads.com > or go direct www.sailnomads.com/phpbb2 > or find it on the links page of origamiboats > | 12641|12641|2007-02-07 09:42:54|whec651972|steel for BS31|Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time finding the 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 with the bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And would the verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. Thanks Leon| 12642|12642|2007-02-07 09:52:09|jeagle999|Creature comforts|Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is designed for. I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am also interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! Thanks| 12643|12643|2007-02-07 09:53:32|jeagle999|What is happening|I sent in two messages nothing shows up!| 12644|12642|2007-02-07 14:35:29|Carl Anderson|Re: Creature comforts|headroom is more a matter of where you put the floor inside.... I'm 6' tall & going for 6'3" headroom minimum in mine... as for a shower that is a matter of your interior layout plans... later, Carl jeagle999 wrote: > > > Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is designed for. > I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am also > interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! > > Thanks > > | 12645|12643|2007-02-07 15:38:12|David A. Frantz|Re: What is happening|Two or more possibilities here. The two that come to mind right away are excessive hacking that has taken place in the last couple of days. This from a foreign country directed at the servers that run the Internet. The second might be normal delays in processing the message. Depending on how this server handles message routing and validation it might take a while for the text to make itself know on the list. There are likely to be a lot of other reasons but these cme off the top of my head. Dave jeagle999 wrote: > > I sent in two messages nothing shows up! > > | 12646|12641|2007-02-07 18:04:05|brentswain38|Re: steel for BS31|12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side . You have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross the seam to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with 7024 , three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled together. To do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th inch cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, letting each one cool completely before putting another weld anywhere near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either way. Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the inside. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time finding the > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 with the > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And would the > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > Thanks Leon > | 12647|12641|2007-02-07 18:35:46|Wesley Cox|Re: steel for BS31|If you don't mind, Brent, to confirm I follow you, you're saying leave the bridges across the inside weld in place until after the hull is pulled together and the outside weld is done? ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side . You have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross the seam to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with 7024 , three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled together. To do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th inch cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, letting each one cool completely before putting another weld anywhere near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either way. Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the inside. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time finding the > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 with the > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And would the > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > Thanks Leon > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12648|12642|2007-02-08 00:17:55|jeagle999|Re: Creature comforts|Hi Thanks for the reply I understand that the lower you put the floor, the more headroom, but I do not want it too narrow. How wide can you go before you have to step up if you want 6' 3" headroom? john --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > headroom is more a matter of where you put the floor inside.... > I'm 6' tall & going for 6'3" headroom minimum in mine... > as for a shower that is a matter of your interior layout plans... > > later, > Carl > > > jeagle999 wrote: > > > > > > > Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is designed for. > > I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am also > > interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! > > > > Thanks > > > > > | 12649|12642|2007-02-08 11:27:02|mickeyolaf|Re: Creature comforts|I worked out a layout for our 36 which gave us one 7'v-berth, 44" shower/head combo, 44" wet locker storage opposite, 7' dinette/double berth, 9'quarter berth under the pilot house, and a 7'pilot berth in Pilothouse. I also didn't want the mast compression post in the way going forward so incorporated the post into the main bulkhead. I raised the freeboard an inch, the deck house an inch, and the pilothouse 12" which gave me 6'6"/6'5" headroom thru out the boat and awesome visibility from the PH. I also have a substantial under deck anchor chain locker ahead of the v-berth and room for 2 captains chairs in the pilothouse. Get yourself a builder's ruler or some graph paper and scale up various interiors. I had about a dozen different layouts for my SW 36 before I settled on the final plan and I am amazed at the room below. I don't think u want to reduce your sole width. You need room for two people to pass each other below. And lowering your sole will compromise the storage under. My seven batteries are all under the sole. Have a look at the pictures I posted of "Andes". Our boat has large pilothouse windows and lots of natural light inside. The changes I made were small and uniform but gave me the headroom I needed and didn't change the look of the boat except for the pilothouse which I wanted to resemble the British "Fisher" series of boats. I went into boats at shows with my camera and photo'd the best ideas. I measured counters and dinettes etc and in the end am really pleased with the result. I spent about two hours in a "Fisher 34" with my tape measure "borrowing" dimensions and ideas especially the pilothouse. I wanted to steer from inside in a chair with my coffee in hand with the heater on etc. My sailing days of being soaking wet freezing my ass off in the cockpit are long gone. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > Hi > > Thanks for the reply > > I understand that the lower you put the floor, the more headroom, but I > do not want it too narrow. > > How wide can you go before you have to step up if you want 6' 3" > headroom? > > > john > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > > headroom is more a matter of where you put the floor inside.... > > I'm 6' tall & going for 6'3" headroom minimum in mine... > > as for a shower that is a matter of your interior layout plans... > > > > later, > > Carl > > > > > > jeagle999 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is > designed for. > > > I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am also > > > interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > | 12650|12617|2007-02-08 14:12:29|mickeyolaf|Re: carbon masts-why would you want one (keep it smple)|I received a price back re a carbon spar for a SW36. Mast only, two winch pads, cutter rig, no spinnaker equipment or track, single spreaders, CDN $18,500.00 plus CDN $1500 for shipping. Aluminum looks really good now at a 3rd the price. Always good to check out new materials though. Carbon is not affordable for the home builder. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I've done so well with all of my boat parts bought from bankrupt stores > and swap meets and the buy and sell etc that I am really pleased with > the amount spent so far compared to what I think I could sell her for. > I agree that Brent has good ideas. But I bought a complete rigged new > anodised boom ready to mount for $350. All I need now is a $350 mast. > I have asked a sparmaker for a quote for a carbon mast (no boom) to > match the SW 36 mast specs. I will supply all of the hardware on it > (from my scrounging). I'll post the quote as soon as I receive it. > What's your quess? > If it is close to the aluminum price I will go carbon. I doubt it will > be though. I also believe in the KISS principle. "Andes" will be pretty > basic. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > I think that when the average person (not independently wealthy) > wants > > to sail there is much to be said for KISS. Small extra costs have a > way > > of adding up, and, a carbon mast is not a small ticket item. I think > > that people like Brent have the right idea, just get out there and > gain > > experience and freedom. My second boat will be a Contessa 26, small, > > cheaper, and seakindly--let someone else take the deppreciation. Back > > to DIY and simple stuff--you could probably build a steel or > aluminium > > mast from pipe stock that would be very adequate, all it takes is > > getting started > > > | 12651|12617|2007-02-08 14:59:15|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: carbon masts-why would you want one (keep it smple)|On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 07:10:16PM -0000, mickeyolaf wrote: > I received a price back re a carbon spar for a SW36. Mast only, two > winch pads, cutter rig, no spinnaker equipment or track, single > spreaders, CDN $18,500.00 plus CDN $1500 for shipping. Yikes... I don't know what the exchange rate is, but that's a pretty large chunk of scratch. > Aluminum looks really good now at a 3rd the price. Always good to > check out new materials though. Carbon is not affordable for the home > builder. That's what I figured. When I came back to the States after my Caribbean cruise, I ended up breaking my mainmast (long, ugly story.) Cleaned up the mess, dropped my mizzen - the fact that they're in tabernacles made life a lot easier - and cruised north, motoring for ~200 miles before I found another one at a boatyard in Titusville. As I recall, it was a 50' mast (I cut it down to 43', which was what I needed); came with shrouds, turnbuckles, running rigging, and 2 *big* Barlow winches - all for $500. Those deals are out there if you look for them. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12652|12652|2007-02-08 15:01:21|jfpacuas|Blue water bronze ports question|Hi folks, An unfortunate (fiberglass boat owner) friend of mine is heading out on a world cruise in a few months. He has bronze ports and is looking for an easy, reliable method to cover them for bluewater cruising. I've posted a couple photos of his ports in the "Ports" folder in origamiboats1. Anyone have suggestions? Any descriptions, ideas, or pictures would be most helpful. Cheers Paul| 12653|12653|2007-02-08 19:27:51|Gary|Steel hull repair|In the 2 yrs since the launch the hull is a bit gouged, pocked and scraped from meeting dock hardware and other whatnot. What is best for plugging up these little indentations. I intend to repaint the hull this spring. Thanks. Gary| 12654|12653|2007-02-08 20:15:52|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull repair|Grind them to clean metal with the angle grinder or the dremmel tool , then give each at least 4 coats of epoxy tar folowed by whatever topcoat you have been using. To fill and fair , you can add talc to make a paste of your epoxy. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > In the 2 yrs since the launch the hull is a bit gouged, pocked and > scraped from meeting dock hardware and other whatnot. What is best > for plugging up these little indentations. I intend to repaint the > hull this spring. > > Thanks. Gary > | 12655|12641|2007-02-08 20:24:11|brentswain38|Re: steel for BS31|Yes The important thing with such seams is that they should be nearly amidships where there is no conic curve . With the weld shrinking longitudinally , its hard to avoid the seam being pulled in when it is pulled into a conic curve. I think what I meant is 20 ft from the bow is OK. Mine was done that way. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > If you don't mind, Brent, to confirm I follow you, you're saying leave the bridges across the inside weld in place until after the hull is pulled together and the outside weld is done? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 > > > 12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side . You > have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on > the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross the seam > to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with 7024 , > three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting > another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the > other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled together. To > do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th inch > cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a > series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, > letting each one cool completely before putting another weld anywhere > near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either way. > Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the inside. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time finding the > > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 with the > > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And would the > > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > > Thanks Leon > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12656|12642|2007-02-08 20:26:08|brentswain38|Re: Creature comforts|4 ft wide at the widest point should still leave you 6 ft 3 headroom. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > Hi > > Thanks for the reply > > I understand that the lower you put the floor, the more headroom, but I > do not want it too narrow. > > How wide can you go before you have to step up if you want 6' 3" > headroom? > > > john > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson > wrote: > > > > headroom is more a matter of where you put the floor inside.... > > I'm 6' tall & going for 6'3" headroom minimum in mine... > > as for a shower that is a matter of your interior layout plans... > > > > later, > > Carl > > > > > > jeagle999 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is > designed for. > > > I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am also > > > interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > | 12657|12641|2007-02-08 23:26:11|Wesley Cox|Re: steel for BS31|Ok, that makes sense to me now. Thanks, Brent. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 Yes The important thing with such seams is that they should be nearly amidships where there is no conic curve . With the weld shrinking longitudinally , its hard to avoid the seam being pulled in when it is pulled into a conic curve. I think what I meant is 20 ft from the bow is OK. Mine was done that way. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > If you don't mind, Brent, to confirm I follow you, you're saying leave the bridges across the inside weld in place until after the hull is pulled together and the outside weld is done? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 > > > 12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side . You > have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on > the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross the seam > to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with 7024 , > three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting > another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the > other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled together. To > do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th inch > cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a > series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, > letting each one cool completely before putting another weld anywhere > near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either way. > Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the inside. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time finding the > > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 with the > > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And would the > > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > > Thanks Leon > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12658|12652|2007-02-09 05:05:05|sae140|Re: Blue water bronze ports question|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jfpacuas" wrote: > > Hi folks, > > An unfortunate (fiberglass boat owner) friend of mine is heading out > on a world cruise in a few months. He has bronze ports and is looking > for an easy, reliable method to cover them for bluewater cruising. > I've posted a couple photos of his ports in the "Ports" folder in > origamiboats1. > > Anyone have suggestions? Any descriptions, ideas, or pictures would be > most helpful. > > Cheers > > Paul Hello, Paul do they really need covering ? They look pretty seaworthy to me. Your friend could always fit external shuttering-boards, I suppose - although I'd guess he's want to avoid drilling fixing holes in the boat. Check out: http://members.aol.com/michaeljspring/private/AZORES.HTM which is the log of a disabled guy who sailed from the UK to the Azores in an oversized dinghy fitted with 'picture windows'. As there's over 13 Mb of (really nice !) graphics, I've uploaded the one's showing the windows (not lights) and shutters to your folder. Maybe these might give you an idea or two ? Colin| 12659|12641|2007-02-09 16:31:14|brentswain38|Re: steel for BS31|With the piece you cut in half, you could put the two factory sheered edges together at the seam to further reduce shrinkage along that seam. This should give you the 30 ft length you need.Double check the overall lengths. They dont always match. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Ok, that makes sense to me now. Thanks, Brent. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 > > > Yes > The important thing with such seams is that they should be nearly > amidships where there is no conic curve . With the weld shrinking > longitudinally , its hard to avoid the seam being pulled in when it is > pulled into a conic curve. I think what I meant is 20 ft from the bow > is OK. Mine was done that way. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > If you don't mind, Brent, to confirm I follow you, you're saying > leave the bridges across the inside weld in place until after the hull > is pulled together and the outside weld is done? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:02 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 > > > > > > 12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side . You > > have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on > > the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross the seam > > to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with 7024 , > > three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting > > another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the > > other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled together. To > > do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th inch > > cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a > > series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, > > letting each one cool completely before putting another weld anywhere > > near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either way. > > Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the > inside. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > > > > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time > finding the > > > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 > with the > > > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And > would the > > > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > > > Thanks Leon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12660|12653|2007-02-09 17:41:54|abellzey|Re: Steel hull repair|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > In the 2 yrs since the launch the hull is a bit gouged, pocked and > scraped from meeting dock hardware and other whatnot. What is best > for plugging up these little indentations. I intend to repaint the > hull this spring. > > Thanks. Gary > why not just run a bead of weld into the gouge and then grind it?| 12661|12653|2007-02-09 19:41:37|brentswain38|Re: Steel hull repair|You'd set fire tot he foam on the other side, or separate it and the paint from the hull, inviting corrosion. With 3/16th plate a gouge is nt a structural issue . Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "abellzey" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > In the 2 yrs since the launch the hull is a bit gouged, pocked and > > scraped from meeting dock hardware and other whatnot. What is best > > for plugging up these little indentations. I intend to repaint the > > hull this spring. > > > > Thanks. Gary > > > why not just run a bead of weld into the gouge and then grind it? > | 12662|12641|2007-02-09 21:15:31|jnikadie|Re: steel for BS31|OK, I've uploaded a file ... "31' Hull From 3 x 20'x8' Sheets". It's based on the file "An Origamiboat model pattern" (which may not be scaled for a 31'). It even has space for the bits that don't fit within the 8' width. I think that's the layout Leon had in mind. Does it get the seam close enough to amidships? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Yes > The important thing with such seams is that they should be nearly > amidships where there is no conic curve . With the weld shrinking > longitudinally , its hard to avoid the seam being pulled in when it is > pulled into a conic curve. I think what I meant is 20 ft from the bow > is OK. Mine was done that way. > Brent > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > If you don't mind, Brent, to confirm I follow you, you're saying > leave the bridges across the inside weld in place until after the hull > is pulled together and the outside weld is done? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:02 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 > > > > > > 12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side . You > > have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on > > the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross the seam > > to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with 7024 , > > three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting > > another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the > > other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled together. To > > do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th inch > > cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a > > series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, > > letting each one cool completely before putting another weld anywhere > > near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either way. > > Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the > inside. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > > > > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time > finding the > > > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3-20x8x3/16 > with the > > > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And > would the > > > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > > > Thanks Leon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > | 12663|12663|2007-02-10 10:20:59|khooper_fboats|Pour Ballast After Splash?|Consider a situation where a boat is built weighing about 35K pounds all up, carrying say 10K pounds of lead ballast. Say the boat is going to have to be trucked to the launch site, which is a harbor on a river and which is very calm at all times, about 15 miles away. Does it make sense to pour the ballast after the boat is in the water? Assuming the hull is done in coal tar w/ overcoat per the Swain book. Would the paint stay cool enough to remain undamaged? Seems like the temperature at the paint could not go above 212 F, is that reasonable? It seems much easier to load and truck a 12-ton boat than an 18-ton.| 12664|12663|2007-02-10 11:52:43|Tom|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|Are you going to weld plate above balast to seal out water-moisture? If you are going to hire a crane to lift boat on trailer and off there is not any savings keeping it lighter. My two cents I would pour lead before painting,why risk blistering paint. If you were useing concrete and scrap for ballast that would be doable. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Pour Ballast After Splash? > > Consider a situation where a boat is built weighing about 35K pounds > all up, carrying say 10K pounds of lead ballast. Say the boat is going > to have to be trucked to the launch site, which is a harbor on a river > and which is very calm at all times, about 15 miles away. > > Does it make sense to pour the ballast after the boat is in the water? > Assuming the hull is done in coal tar w/ overcoat per the Swain book. > Would the paint stay cool enough to remain undamaged? Seems like the > temperature at the paint could not go above 212 F, is that reasonable? > > It seems much easier to load and truck a 12-ton boat than an 18-ton. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12665|12663|2007-02-10 12:41:08|Carl Anderson|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|I would say that it will be much better to put the ballast in before blasting the hull as the welding used to seal it in place will definitely blister the paint & primer on the outside. My thinking is that you really should seal the ballast to prevent any corrosion in the bottom of the keel. Are you using lead or something else? Carl Tom wrote: > Are you going to weld plate above balast to seal out water-moisture? If > you are going to hire a crane to lift boat on trailer and off there is > not > any savings keeping it lighter. My two cents I would pour lead before > painting,why risk blistering paint. If you were useing concrete and scrap > for ballast that would be doable. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "khooper_fboats" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:20 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Pour Ballast After Splash? > > > > > Consider a situation where a boat is built weighing about 35K pounds > > all up, carrying say 10K pounds of lead ballast. Say the boat is going > > to have to be trucked to the launch site, which is a harbor on a river > > and which is very calm at all times, about 15 miles away. > > > > Does it make sense to pour the ballast after the boat is in the water? > > Assuming the hull is done in coal tar w/ overcoat per the Swain book. > > Would the paint stay cool enough to remain undamaged? Seems like the > > temperature at the paint could not go above 212 F, is that reasonable? > > > > It seems much easier to load and truck a 12-ton boat than an 18-ton. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 12666|12663|2007-02-10 14:21:43|khooper_fboats|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|I don't want to have to use a crane to load the boat if I can avoid it, I'd rather jack it up high enough to get a flatbed under it. Incrimentally. Yes it will take a while. =^) 30% less weight would make a difference. I had thought of the problem w/ welding a plate on top of the ballast in each keel, but this does not seem insurmountable. If I do some math I should be able to calculte the volume of the lead pretty closely and weld the plate in beforehand, leaving a smallish hole to pour the lead through (probably would use mostly spherical lead shot in this case, bound in with molten lead, although I really would rather not cast 10,000 pounds of shot!). The actual keels are asymmetrical foils in this boat and I am going to have to form them over several interior frames anyway (frames inside the keels to give them shape, in a plane roughly parallel to the plane of the deck). So there are going to be several "flanges" inside the keels that would keep the lead in place anyway even if nothing is welded over them. I just still wonder if the molten lead would be hot enough to damage the paint if the keels were submerged. Might have to do this experiment empirically I guess to see if it would work in a tub in the back yard.| 12667|12641|2007-02-10 15:23:11|joe framer|Re: steel for BS31|Hello All, Regarding joining the plate 20' back from the bow....I was looking at two sheets 16' long. Is that OK or should I look to find 20' and 12' sheets to make up a side???? Karl in NC ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/| 12668|12663|2007-02-10 15:56:35|Paul Wilson|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|I wouldn't try pouring lead through a small hole. The lead doesn't pour and flow nearly as well as you think since it cools so quickly so I would want to see how it flows. It also shrinks after cooling so that there is a slight gap between the lead and the steel. I poured some resin in afterwords so there was no possibility of corrosion if water ever did get in, though unlikely. Zinc primer was no problem with the heat on the inside. I painted the outside of the hull after I had welded on the top. I think trying to pour lead while in the water while not impossible would be a real pain. Cheers and good luck, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: khooper_fboats To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:20:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Pour Ballast After Splash? I don't want to have to use a crane to load the boat if I can avoid it, I'd rather jack it up high enough to get a flatbed under it. Incrimentally. Yes it will take a while. =^) 30% less weight would make a difference. I had thought of the problem w/ welding a plate on top of the ballast in each keel, but this does not seem insurmountable. If I do some math I should be able to calculte the volume of the lead pretty closely and weld the plate in beforehand, leaving a smallish hole to pour the lead through (probably would use mostly spherical lead shot in this case, bound in with molten lead, although I really would rather not cast 10,000 pounds of shot!). The actual keels are asymmetrical foils in this boat and I am going to have to form them over several interior frames anyway (frames inside the keels to give them shape, in a plane roughly parallel to the plane of the deck). So there are going to be several "flanges" inside the keels that would keep the lead in place anyway even if nothing is welded over them. I just still wonder if the molten lead would be hot enough to damage the paint if the keels were submerged. Might have to do this experiment empirically I guess to see if it would work in a tub in the back yard. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12669|12663|2007-02-10 15:58:38|Aaron Williams|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|I would think that the lead might cool so fast that you would not be able to get it all in. And if you then needed to use a torch you could never over come the heat disapation from the water. Aaron khooper_fboats wrote: I don't want to have to use a crane to load the boat if I can avoid it, I'd rather jack it up high enough to get a flatbed under it. Incrimentally. Yes it will take a while. =^) 30% less weight would make a difference. I had thought of the problem w/ welding a plate on top of the ballast in each keel, but this does not seem insurmountable. If I do some math I should be able to calculte the volume of the lead pretty closely and weld the plate in beforehand, leaving a smallish hole to pour the lead through (probably would use mostly spherical lead shot in this case, bound in with molten lead, although I really would rather not cast 10,000 pounds of shot!). The actual keels are asymmetrical foils in this boat and I am going to have to form them over several interior frames anyway (frames inside the keels to give them shape, in a plane roughly parallel to the plane of the deck). So there are going to be several "flanges" inside the keels that would keep the lead in place anyway even if nothing is welded over them. I just still wonder if the molten lead would be hot enough to damage the paint if the keels were submerged. Might have to do this experiment empirically I guess to see if it would work in a tub in the back yard. --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12670|12663|2007-02-10 20:01:51|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|Another solution is to jack it up before pouring the lead then it would be two lesser weight things rather then one big weighted thing. Jon| 12671|12641|2007-02-10 20:10:12|brentswain38|Re: steel for BS31|16 footers would work fine. The preferable thing is to avoid seams on the conic ends . Anywhere in between is OK. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, joe framer wrote: > > Hello All, > > Regarding joining the plate 20' back from the > bow....I was looking at two sheets 16' long. Is that > OK or should I look to find 20' and 12' sheets to make > up a side???? Karl in NC > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > | 12672|12663|2007-02-10 20:12:31|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 01:01:45AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Another solution is to jack it up before pouring the lead then it would > be two lesser weight things rather then one big weighted thing. I met a Swiss fellow in the islands who had finished a steel boat that a friend of his had started (it had some "special" features, like an diesel out of a just-wrecked Mercedes-Benz and a drilled Maria-Theresa dollar as a knob for the kill switch); he had stacked a bunch of lead bricks in his bilge, arranging them so they fit tightly. I wonder if it would make sense to make up a mold - sort of like an ice tray - and pour a bunch of bricks instead of filling the keel directly? I have no idea where or how he got his, but it seemed like a pretty nifty solution. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12673|12663|2007-02-10 20:13:59|brentswain38|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|I tiger torched half the r ballast of my boat in the water.It was just primer then. No problem. When I was able to afford the rest I had foamed the boat , so I made a for lead ingots roughly the shape of the foreward and aft ends of the keel. I then stacked these in and pouired cement and epoxy around them. No rproblem. I'd have prefered to cap them with a fully welded in streel plate to make the compartment airtight which would seal out oxygen and make paint in there irrelevant. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Consider a situation where a boat is built weighing about 35K pounds > all up, carrying say 10K pounds of lead ballast. Say the boat is going > to have to be trucked to the launch site, which is a harbor on a river > and which is very calm at all times, about 15 miles away. > > Does it make sense to pour the ballast after the boat is in the water? > Assuming the hull is done in coal tar w/ overcoat per the Swain book. > Would the paint stay cool enough to remain undamaged? Seems like the > temperature at the paint could not go above 212 F, is that reasonable? > > It seems much easier to load and truck a 12-ton boat than an 18-ton. > | 12674|12663|2007-02-10 20:20:49|brentswain38|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|Sorry for the typos. Computer was about to shut down. I made a mold for ingots roughly the shape of the foreward and aft ends of the keels. You could pour small amounts of lead between the ingots much easier than pouring the works. Ballasting after foaming makes using the tops of the keels for tankage difficult, but you could launch with a second coat of proimer in , do whatever youy want with your ballast ,then paint and foam the interior on the beach. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I tiger torched half the > > r ballast of my boat in the water.It was just primer then. No problem. > When I was able to afford the rest I had foamed the boat , so I made a > for lead ingots roughly the shape of the foreward and aft ends of the > keel. I then stacked these in and pouired cement and epoxy around > them. No rproblem. I'd have prefered to cap them with a fully welded > in streel plate to make the compartment airtight which would seal out > oxygen and make paint in there irrelevant. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > Consider a situation where a boat is built weighing about 35K pounds > > all up, carrying say 10K pounds of lead ballast. Say the boat is going > > to have to be trucked to the launch site, which is a harbor on a river > > and which is very calm at all times, about 15 miles away. > > > > Does it make sense to pour the ballast after the boat is in the water? > > Assuming the hull is done in coal tar w/ overcoat per the Swain book. > > Would the paint stay cool enough to remain undamaged? Seems like the > > temperature at the paint could not go above 212 F, is that reasonable? > > > > It seems much easier to load and truck a 12-ton boat than an 18-ton. > > > | 12675|12663|2007-02-10 21:26:53|David A. Frantz|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|Use to be you could get lead bricks from a number of places. I believe McMaster-Carr sold them at one time. There are a surprising number of uses for lead in brick form. Dave Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 01:01:45AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > > Another solution is to jack it up before pouring the lead then it would > > be two lesser weight things rather then one big weighted thing. > > I met a Swiss fellow in the islands who had finished a steel boat that a > friend of his had started (it had some "special" features, like an > diesel out of a just-wrecked Mercedes-Benz and a drilled Maria-Theresa > dollar as a knob for the kill switch); he had stacked a bunch of lead > bricks in his bilge, arranging them so they fit tightly. I wonder if it > would make sense to make up a mold - sort of like an ice tray - and pour > a bunch of bricks instead of filling the keel directly? I have no idea > where or how he got his, but it seemed like a pretty nifty solution. > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * > > | 12676|12663|2007-02-10 22:37:08|Alex Christie|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|A local bs36 builder here used small lead ingots which he poured in safety outside, with a triangular cross-section. He stacked them vertically inside th e keel and they nested very snuggly with negligible air-gap. A very low-stress way of ballasting a boat. There is no need for the lead, contained in a bomb-proof steel keel, to be monolithic, is there? The plate on the side of the keel is 1/4 inch and the bottom of the keel is a half inch thick, so nobody nor nuttin' is gonna puncture that baby (generally speakin'). Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin A. Okopnik To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Pour Ballast After Splash? On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 01:01:45AM -0000, Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote: > Another solution is to jack it up before pouring the lead then it would > be two lesser weight things rather then one big weighted thing. I met a Swiss fellow in the islands who had finished a steel boat that a friend of his had started (it had some "special" features, like an diesel out of a just-wrecked Mercedes-Benz and a drilled Maria-Theresa dollar as a knob for the kill switch); he had stacked a bunch of lead bricks in his bilge, arranging them so they fit tightly. I wonder if it would make sense to make up a mold - sort of like an ice tray - and pour a bunch of bricks instead of filling the keel directly? I have no idea where or how he got his, but it seemed like a pretty nifty solution. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.34/679 - Release Date: 10/02/2007 4:08 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12677|12653|2007-02-10 22:46:09|Alex Christie|Re: Steel hull repair|And I think the gouge was mostly in the high-build paint wasn't it? Anything actually in the steel would be negligible, and easily filled. Definitely a cosmetic, but not structural issue, nothing filling, fairing and repainting wouldn't fix up in a jiffy. Alex On 9-Feb-07, at 4:41 PM, brentswain38 wrote: > You'd set fire tot he foam on the other side, or separate it and the > paint from the hull, inviting corrosion. With 3/16th plate a gouge is > nt a structural issue . > Brent [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12678|12663|2007-02-11 06:00:47|sae140|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex Christie wrote: > > A local bs36 builder here used small lead ingots which he poured in safety outside, with a triangular cross-section. He stacked them vertically inside th e keel and they nested very snuggly with negligible air-gap. A very low-stress way of ballasting a boat. There is no need for the lead, contained in a bomb-proof steel keel, to be monolithic, is there? The plate on the side of the keel is 1/4 inch and the bottom of the keel is a half inch thick, so nobody nor nuttin' is gonna puncture that baby (generally speakin'). > > Alex I'm pretty sure there was a post here some time back where someone had made (or was planning to make) a male mold of the inside of each keel - in several sections, with plastic-covered plywood/cardboard for spacers. If memory serves, these lumps were made from plaster, papier-mache - something like that. Having pulled 'em out then female molds were made from these, using wire mesh and plaster - and *** allowed to dry out throughly ***. Then the lead was poured into those moulds (maybe a steel loop handle could be inserted at this stage) to a precalculated height. When installed, resin (or even sand if you plan on pulling 'em out again) was poured into the gaps. Sounds like the hassle trades-off well against the need to only melt and pour small amounts of lead at any one time. Needless to say, if the lead isn't fully secured with resin or a steel covering plate, then a steel securing bar should be attached through the 'handles'. Repeat - it ain't my idea. I think it has merit. Colin Alternatively - use Toblerone shapes (only need to make one mold !!)| 12679|12663|2007-02-11 07:21:54|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|khooper_fboats, When we poured lead into our keels, splashes up the inside of the keels solidified into place and had to be melted off. We made a wooden shute after a while to avoid the splashes. The flames where easily beaten out. When the steel warmed up as we carried on melting and pouring the lead through the day it flowed better. I would expect that pouring molten lead through a hole into water cooled keels would give problems with the lead solidifying before it could reach nooks and crannies. If you where building a wooden or fibreglass boat you would be making the keel out of solid premoulded shapes and that would be OK. People have used the frog of a brick to make triangular ingots. Make sure that the brick is dry or the heat of the lead will turn the moisture to steam so quick that the brick will explode. One needs a source of bricks with frogs of course. We poured the lead in our keels before we fitted them to the boat. When we lifted up our boat to put the keels in, because we only had access from one end we used a front end loader on the stern and see- sawed the boat up using blocks and frames welded to the side of the boat. To lift a boat so that a semi-trailer can reverse underneath will mean that your supports will have to be wider than the trailer bed. If you are using a jack to lift it you will need a lot of blocks. You will need to give the safety issues a lot of thought. If I was doing it that way I would be happier with an air ambulance, paramedics and a crane standing by in case the whole lot collapsed on top of me. There are some photos of us pouring lead and of our support frames on origamiboats 2 (Ted and Fiona's boat bits & Fancies Fly). Regards, Ted| 12680|12663|2007-02-11 10:14:10|khooper_fboats|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|Many good points to consider, thank you all for your experience. I do not know what a frog is in the context of masonry but maybe the same thing could be accomplished with angle iron? I've bought some lead that seems to have been cast inside sections of smallish I-beam. It works out well for stacking. On jacking, it is a large project by itself, you are right. Somewhere there is a site out there where a guy builds a 50' aluminum catamaran, then loads it on a trailer and moves it. Can't remember if he jacks it up or uses a crane but ISTR he jacks it. He was a Canadian and you never know what those people are going to do next. Anyway a bilge-keeled monohull is a catamaran when viewed from the south after all. =^ ) --Ken| 12681|12617|2007-02-11 10:42:18|seeratlas|Re: carbon masts-why would you want one (keep it smple)|I've not messed with a carbon fibre mast but I do have some experience with carbon fibre kayaks, and a number of other things made from them. My concerns are 1. UV, 2. abrasion resistance, or more appropriately the lack there of. Granted there aren't a lot of things likely to impact the mast, but should a block get loose and the sail whip it against the mast, well, once the surface skin is injured, and water gets into the weave, things go downhill pretty rapidly. All things being equal, for the diy world traveler, a well thought out steel mast would be my first choice, assuming your boat can handle the weight and 'moment arm'. The fittings welded to the mast dispense with soooooo many headaches...but if, like me, you plan on having tabernacle mounted masts that must be capable of being raised and lowered on the boat..by the boat, and for the boat... (sorry, :) guess its the Obama press conference kicking in...heheheh) then I'm compelled to settle on good old cylindrical aluminum. seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I've done so well with all of my boat parts bought from bankrupt stores > and swap meets and the buy and sell etc that I am really pleased with > the amount spent so far compared to what I think I could sell her for. > I agree that Brent has good ideas. But I bought a complete rigged new > anodised boom ready to mount for $350. All I need now is a $350 mast. > I have asked a sparmaker for a quote for a carbon mast (no boom) to > match the SW 36 mast specs. I will supply all of the hardware on it > (from my scrounging). I'll post the quote as soon as I receive it. > What's your quess? > If it is close to the aluminum price I will go carbon. I doubt it will > be though. I also believe in the KISS principle. "Andes" will be pretty > basic. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > I think that when the average person (not independently wealthy) > wants > > to sail there is much to be said for KISS. Small extra costs have a > way > > of adding up, and, a carbon mast is not a small ticket item. I think > > that people like Brent have the right idea, just get out there and > gain > > experience and freedom. My second boat will be a Contessa 26, small, > > cheaper, and seakindly--let someone else take the deppreciation. Back > > to DIY and simple stuff--you could probably build a steel or > aluminium > > mast from pipe stock that would be very adequate, all it takes is > > getting started > > > | 12682|12516|2007-02-11 11:01:37|seeratlas|Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36|I dunno bout the 'dropped out in water without any problem'...:) I can just visualize, sitting n say a 3 foot swell, in maybe 100 fathoms..now how are you plannng on doing this? I suppose you could bolt something to the inside tube or solid top of your rudder head, cable i suppose, then lower that down thru your deck bearing tube, now you have a what 200 lb plus piece of free wheeling barn door dragging around under the boat? How do you propose to go 'get it' and bring it up on deck where you can work on it.? Better yet, assuming you can fix it, how you planning on getting it back in the tube? Having 'once' (one and done) tried something like this, I get much more excited about the prospects of taking a tackle off the main boom (in my design it goes clear aft as its a two stick design), attaching to the top of the stern mounted rudder and just hauling the thing up and on board, no muss no fuss. Granted its going to be a bear to get back down in the right place, but between the two, I'd have to go with the stern mounted. Here's the deal, there are "at least" three things that are going to go bad with your rudder depending on where you sail. 1. you're going to whack a coral head or rock outcropping, 2. you're going to tweak it when grounding, and three, out in the open ocean you might hit a container, or whale or something else that goes 'bump' n the night and gimp it good. The likelihood of the first two far eclipse the third, so you 'should' be able to work on it in standing depth water which will help a lot, except for the fact that you're going to need enough clearance under the keel to completely clear your ruddershaft when you drop it....., AND, if not mounted on a skeg, if you hit something HARD, that shaft is possibly going to bent if not completely jammed. sssoooooo, Again....if you're going rough places, or doing things that involve something solid under the boat...(bilge keel types especially), all things considered...i'd still lean towards the aft mount. As a personal note, this is one area I spend a lot of time trying to improve on Brent's design. bottom line,,, couldn't do it. seer. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I've seen skeg hung rudders with a bolted flange attaching the rudder to the > shaft, allowing the rudder to be removed without removing the shaft. > > > > For a spade, it you run the bearing tube from the hull to the deck, there > are no seals to deal with, the rudder can be tiller driven, and dropped out > in water and replaced without any problem. > > > > One of the mind sets to be overcome when cruising is the idea that work on > the boat has to be done on the land. The more repairs that can be done > without putting the boat on the hard the better. Lots of places it is near > impossible to put the boat on the hard - if you are even near land. > > > > g > > > > _____ > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gerd > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 2:55 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > Seer - the scantling for the rudders is laid out for rudders without > skeg, and very solidly so. We then decided to have skegs in addition > to that, slotted into the hull and taken with additional webbing > bound into the structure, which means that you would more or less > have to rip the entire aft hull off if you want to cause damage... ;-) > But yes, if and in the unlikely case that you need to service them > you would need to lift the hull enough to be able to drop the shafts > out. In this respect, a transom hung rudder like on the Yago 31 is > easier to handle. > > Gerd > The Yago-Poject at http://www.yago- > project.com > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" > wrote: > > > > My problem with twin rudders is how do you repair them easily when > you > > hit something? Wouldn't you have to haul the boat? or can Gerd's > > design be worked on if the boat is sitting on the hard. > > seer > > > > --- In origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > I like the twin rudders and skeg. Very much like the Omni I saw in > > Langkawi. > > > With the fwd boards up, she will self-stand. The only limitation > is the > > > prop not in line with the rudders, which makes her a bit more > > difficult to > > > maneuver around a dock. Fine for offshore. With the boards up, > twin > > > rudders and skeg in the stern, this goes a long ways to answering > Garys' > > > next posting dealing with broaching and roll-over in a following > sea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Following seas can be deadly, especially when you have wind > against > > current > > > conditions as can happen near the coast. Nothing to be taken > > lightly - this > > > could well be what happened off Chile. Fin keel is typically the > > worst for > > > broaching. Full keel is better. No keel is better still, so long > > as the > > > ballasting is correct. Add twin rudders and a skeg, hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dinghy racing is a great place to test different design ideas. In > > scale, it > > > is much easier to duplicate offshore conditions. Anyone planning > to > > do much > > > yacht sailing, you will learn much faster starting in dinghies, > and the > > > mistakes are less costly. Once you lift the board(s), most > dinghies fly > > > downwind using just a rudder. They are almost impossible to > broach, no > > > matter how unbalanced the sail plan. They just slide off to > > leeward. Stick > > > the board(s) down, speeds fall in half (or more), and they will > spin > > around > > > the board and broach, especially in steep following seas. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Gerd > > > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:41 AM > > > To: origamiboats@ > yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] On the Drawing Board: YAGO 36 > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all - I thought you might be interested in a project I have > been > > > working on for some months now: > > > > > > http://www.yago- > > > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/> > > > project.com/content/blogcategory/77/59/lang,en/ > > > > > > It's a comission I got last year for a larger version of my Yago > 31. > > > General concept and appearance are quite similar, but actually it > is a > > > complete re-design, the hull is slimmer and more powerful, the > transom > > > rudder was replaced with twin rudders on short skegs, there is a > keel > > > stub to protect the prop and also the rig was - for this > particular > > > version - drawn for a fully battened bermudan main with a self > tacking > > > jib. Other rig versions would of course be possible. > > > > > > enjoy ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > > the Yago Project at http://www.yago- project.com> > > > project.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12683|12663|2007-02-11 11:04:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Pour Ballast After Splash?|Ken A frog is the recessed bit, often triangular, in the biggest faces of some bricks. I guess it comes from the frog in a horses hoof, which is the triangular bit in the middle of the base. Angle or channel or I beam is fine, except that ends have to be arranged to let the solid lead out easily. Regards, Ted| 12684|12615|2007-02-11 11:07:19|seeratlas|FRP Spectra [was: Re: Carbon Fiber Masts]|there used to be some fibreglass mast makers around, some did pretty well. after all, the original pole vaulting poles for the 'high flyers' (over 15 feet or so) were fibreglass. Problem is going to be attaching fittings, but i'm sure someone worked all that out. seer -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Has anybody ever heard of making spars in a layup from Spectra or one > of the other polyethylenes? It's not as strong as carbon but it's > still very strong, it's lighter than carbon, and it looks to be less > expensive. And when it fails it fails gently from what I'm reading. Am > I nuts? > > --Ken > | 12685|12642|2007-02-11 11:17:25|seeratlas|Re: Creature comforts|Mickey, I took a look in the photos section and the folder on Andes says "empty". Did you move them somewhere else? seer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > I worked out a layout for our 36 which gave us one 7'v-berth, 44" > shower/head combo, 44" wet locker storage opposite, 7' dinette/double > berth, 9'quarter berth under the pilot house, and a 7'pilot berth in > Pilothouse. I also didn't want the mast compression post in the way > going forward so incorporated the post into the main bulkhead. > I raised the freeboard an inch, the deck house an inch, and the > pilothouse 12" which gave me 6'6"/6'5" headroom thru out the boat and > awesome visibility from the PH. I also have a substantial under deck > anchor chain locker ahead of the v-berth and room for 2 captains > chairs in the pilothouse. > Get yourself a builder's ruler or some graph paper and scale up > various interiors. I had about a dozen different layouts for my SW 36 > before I settled on the final plan and I am amazed at the room below. > I don't think u want to reduce your sole width. You need room for two > people to pass each other below. And lowering your sole will > compromise the storage under. My seven batteries are all under the > sole. > Have a look at the pictures I posted of "Andes". Our boat has large > pilothouse windows and lots of natural light inside. The changes I > made were small and uniform but gave me the headroom I needed and > didn't change the look of the boat except for the pilothouse which I > wanted to resemble the British "Fisher" series of boats. > I went into boats at shows with my camera and photo'd the best ideas. > I measured counters and dinettes etc and in the end am really pleased > with the result. I spent about two hours in a "Fisher 34" with my > tape measure "borrowing" dimensions and ideas especially the > pilothouse. > I wanted to steer from inside in a chair with my coffee in hand with > the heater on etc. My sailing days of being soaking wet freezing my > ass off in the cockpit are long gone. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi > > > > Thanks for the reply > > > > I understand that the lower you put the floor, the more headroom, > but I > > do not want it too narrow. > > > > How wide can you go before you have to step up if you want 6' 3" > > headroom? > > > > > > john > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson > > wrote: > > > > > > headroom is more a matter of where you put the floor inside.... > > > I'm 6' tall & going for 6'3" headroom minimum in mine... > > > as for a shower that is a matter of your interior layout plans... > > > > > > later, > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > jeagle999 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is > > designed for. > > > > I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am > also > > > > interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12686|12615|2007-02-11 12:49:58|khooper_fboats|FRP Spectra|Well I wasn't thinking glass so much (too weak to make a reasonable size spar in a larger boat probably), I am interested in the spun polyethylenes. Spectra being probably the best known. Zylon looks to be extremely strong in terms of tensile strength, stronger than most carbon I think, but Zylon appears to be so unstable in exposure to UV that it has to be stored in the dark. And very expensive to boot. So Spectra maybe. The end game for me (and others I know) is an inexpensive, home built unstayed rig. All the information I can turn up about Spectra is in reference to lines, not layups. Surely somebody has tried it as a laminate and I thought somebody here may have heard of such a thing. > there used to be some fibreglass mast makers around, some did pretty > well. after all, the original pole vaulting poles for the 'high > flyers' (over 15 feet or so) were fibreglass. Problem is going to be > attaching fittings, but i'm sure someone worked all that out. | 12687|12615|2007-02-11 19:01:54|Peter Muth|Re: FRP Spectra|I expect that you will find with some research, that Spectra/Dyneema/UHMWPE has a problem for layup: it creeps. This will basically cause (over time) the fiber to fail to share the load with the composited plastic/resin/etc, and result in the formation of cracks in the composited material. This would then release the entire load back onto the fiber, and form further cracks. Perhaps this could be solved with the proper compositing material? I have seen a Spectra based product used to make rope that is basically pre-stretched, though I don't know if this would solve the problem either. khooper_fboats wrote: > > > Well I wasn't thinking glass so much (too weak to make a reasonable > size spar in a larger boat probably), I am interested in the spun > polyethylenes. Spectra being probably the best known. Zylon looks to > be extremely strong in terms of tensile strength, stronger than most > carbon I think, but Zylon appears to be so unstable in exposure to UV > that it has to be stored in the dark. And very expensive to boot. So > Spectra maybe. > > The end game for me (and others I know) is an inexpensive, home built > unstayed rig. All the information I can turn up about Spectra is in > reference to lines, not layups. Surely somebody has tried it as a > laminate and I thought somebody here may have heard of such a thing. > > > there used to be some fibreglass mast makers around, some did pretty > > well. after all, the original pole vaulting poles for the 'high > > flyers' (over 15 feet or so) were fibreglass. Problem is going to be > > attaching fittings, but i'm sure someone worked all that out. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12688|12615|2007-02-11 19:15:15|J Fisher|Re: FRP Spectra|I have used spectra a lot in model boats as lines. It does have some issues It is very hard to keep knots from slipping. Even if you glue them, they will still slip. It is also very sensitive to abrasion. Those two observations would make me very leary of using it in a lamination. It is also used in kite string due to its low stretch, low friction to itself and high strength vs diameter. I actually use Dacron most of the time even though it is not as strong for the same diameter since knots hold better and it is less sensitive to abrasion. John John Date: 2/11/2007 10:50:00 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] FRP Spectra Well I wasn't thinking glass so much (too weak to make a reasonable size spar in a larger boat probably), I am interested in the spun polyethylenes. Spectra being probably the best known. Zylon looks to be extremely strong in terms of tensile strength, stronger than most carbon I think, but Zylon appears to be so unstable in exposure to UV that it has to be stored in the dark. And very expensive to boot. So Spectra maybe. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12689|12642|2007-02-12 09:04:08|mickeyolaf|Re: Creature comforts|They are on the first page of photos 3rd row down, right after "aluminum 39 footer". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "seeratlas" wrote: > > Mickey, I took a look in the photos section and the folder on Andes > says "empty". Did you move them somewhere else? > > seer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > > > I worked out a layout for our 36 which gave us one 7'v-berth, 44" > > shower/head combo, 44" wet locker storage opposite, 7' dinette/double > > berth, 9'quarter berth under the pilot house, and a 7'pilot berth in > > Pilothouse. I also didn't want the mast compression post in the way > > going forward so incorporated the post into the main bulkhead. > > I raised the freeboard an inch, the deck house an inch, and the > > pilothouse 12" which gave me 6'6"/6'5" headroom thru out the boat and > > awesome visibility from the PH. I also have a substantial under deck > > anchor chain locker ahead of the v-berth and room for 2 captains > > chairs in the pilothouse. > > Get yourself a builder's ruler or some graph paper and scale up > > various interiors. I had about a dozen different layouts for my SW 36 > > before I settled on the final plan and I am amazed at the room below. > > I don't think u want to reduce your sole width. You need room for two > > people to pass each other below. And lowering your sole will > > compromise the storage under. My seven batteries are all under the > > sole. > > Have a look at the pictures I posted of "Andes". Our boat has large > > pilothouse windows and lots of natural light inside. The changes I > > made were small and uniform but gave me the headroom I needed and > > didn't change the look of the boat except for the pilothouse which I > > wanted to resemble the British "Fisher" series of boats. > > I went into boats at shows with my camera and photo'd the best ideas. > > I measured counters and dinettes etc and in the end am really pleased > > with the result. I spent about two hours in a "Fisher 34" with my > > tape measure "borrowing" dimensions and ideas especially the > > pilothouse. > > I wanted to steer from inside in a chair with my coffee in hand with > > the heater on etc. My sailing days of being soaking wet freezing my > > ass off in the cockpit are long gone. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Thanks for the reply > > > > > > I understand that the lower you put the floor, the more headroom, > > but I > > > do not want it too narrow. > > > > > > How wide can you go before you have to step up if you want 6' 3" > > > headroom? > > > > > > > > > john > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > headroom is more a matter of where you put the floor inside.... > > > > I'm 6' tall & going for 6'3" headroom minimum in mine... > > > > as for a shower that is a matter of your interior layout plans... > > > > > > > > later, > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > > > > jeagle999 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could some please tell, how much headroom the 36 footer is > > > designed for. > > > > > I need about 6'2" to 6'3". Can I get a good six foot bunk I am > > also > > > > > interested in how good of shower you can get onboard! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12690|12690|2007-02-12 11:02:37|mickeyolaf|Wooden spars?|Have any Swain boats gone with wooden spars? I think it would be an easy task to glue up a light wooden spar in the backyard. Glued up with resorcinol in two halves with the center routed out leaving solid wood where needed with a conduit for wires and water to pass. An aluminum tapped plate embedded for the goosneck attachment. Aluminum tube as compression sleeves for thru bolts. Probably the hard part would be finding really good quarter sawn spruce in long lengths (to eliminate too many scarfs). I've seen long beautiful planks of yellow cedar up in Campbell River but I don't know if yellow cedar would glue up well. I've been told never to glue up a mast with epoxy, only resorcinol. The inside of both halfs of the mast could be coated in epoxy (except for areas being glued) before gluing the two halves together. Aluminum sail track is readily available. A masthead and base could be welded up in aluminum or cast ones retrofitted. The aluminum section for a SW 36 mast comes in at 4.75 lbs per foot so u would want the wood spar the same or less. Would u have to worry about all of the stainless screws holding the track on eventually rotting out around each hole? I remember Larry Pardey wrote somewhere that using an anti fungal bitumastic bedding compound had rot prevention qualities. Our boat is aluminum so a steel mast isn't in the picture. Carbon is overpriced. Aluminum about $11,000.00. I wonder if I could put a wood one together for $5000?| 12691|12691|2007-02-12 11:34:36|audeojude|standing up on a fin keel|I was curious why you don't see fin keels with dual rudders designed to stand up and dry out like a bilge keel boat such as one of brents. What would happen if you had two skeg supported transom hung rudders. Couldn't you design it so that you had your three points of contact? the shoes of the skegs on the rudders and the fin keel?| 12692|12691|2007-02-12 12:13:55|Carl Volkwein|Re: standing up on a fin keel|I would guess itwould complicate the steering linkage, having two rudders to deal with. Carl audeojude wrote: I was curious why you don't see fin keels with dual rudders designed to stand up and dry out like a bilge keel boat such as one of brents. What would happen if you had two skeg supported transom hung rudders. Couldn't you design it so that you had your three points of contact? the shoes of the skegs on the rudders and the fin keel? --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12693|12690|2007-02-12 14:07:03|Ray|Re: Wooden spars?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > Have any Swain boats gone with wooden spars? > > Wooden Boat did a neat series of articles a few years ago detailing the buildup of laminated lightweight spars. They used a technique that I *think* was called "birds mouth" - basically, you cut strips in widths according to the final diameter of your spar, and used a table saw to cut longitudinal notches along the length of the strips. These strips were then banded & epoxied together (w/a 90 degree corner of one strip fit into the notch of the adjoing strip). After the epoxy cured, the raised corners were planed smooth, and a belt sander used to rough-sand the spar to a conical shape. I built a SMALL (12') mast like this, and though I had to paint it to cover my woodworking mistakes, it was very stiff and light, and worked well in the little dinghy.| 12694|12690|2007-02-12 14:37:16|Paul Wilson|Re: Wooden spars?|I have an old but good article on building your own aluminum spars using aluminum irrigation pipe. It is quite large (about 3mb) but if anybody wants it I am happy to send it. Alternatively, I could try to post it somewhere if anybody has an ideas. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:02:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Wooden spars? Have any Swain boats gone with wooden spars? I think it would be an easy task to glue up a light wooden spar in the backyard. Glued up with resorcinol in two halves with the center routed out leaving solid wood where needed with a conduit for wires and water to pass. An aluminum tapped plate embedded for the goosneck attachment. Aluminum tube as compression sleeves for thru bolts. Probably the hard part would be finding really good quarter sawn spruce in long lengths (to eliminate too many scarfs). I've seen long beautiful planks of yellow cedar up in Campbell River but I don't know if yellow cedar would glue up well. I've been told never to glue up a mast with epoxy, only resorcinol. The inside of both halfs of the mast could be coated in epoxy (except for areas being glued) before gluing the two halves together. Aluminum sail track is readily available. A masthead and base could be welded up in aluminum or cast ones retrofitted. The aluminum section for a SW 36 mast comes in at 4.75 lbs per foot so u would want the wood spar the same or less. Would u have to worry about all of the stainless screws holding the track on eventually rotting out around each hole? I remember Larry Pardey wrote somewhere that using an anti fungal bitumastic bedding compound had rot prevention qualities. Our boat is aluminum so a steel mast isn't in the picture. Carbon is overpriced. Aluminum about $11,000.00. I wonder if I could put a wood one together for $5000? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12695|12690|2007-02-12 14:54:06|Aaron Williams|Re: Wooden spars?|Paul I would like to have a look at. I think you could upload it to the files section or if need more room for it put it on the files section of Origamiboats 2 Thanks Aaron Paul Wilson wrote: I have an old but good article on building your own aluminum spars using aluminum irrigation pipe. It is quite large (about 3mb) but if anybody wants it I am happy to send it. Alternatively, I could try to post it somewhere if anybody has an ideas. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: mickeyolaf To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:02:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Wooden spars? Have any Swain boats gone with wooden spars? I think it would be an easy task to glue up a light wooden spar in the backyard. Glued up with resorcinol in two halves with the center routed out leaving solid wood where needed with a conduit for wires and water to pass. An aluminum tapped plate embedded for the goosneck attachment. Aluminum tube as compression sleeves for thru bolts. Probably the hard part would be finding really good quarter sawn spruce in long lengths (to eliminate too many scarfs). I've seen long beautiful planks of yellow cedar up in Campbell River but I don't know if yellow cedar would glue up well. I've been told never to glue up a mast with epoxy, only resorcinol. The inside of both halfs of the mast could be coated in epoxy (except for areas being glued) before gluing the two halves together. Aluminum sail track is readily available. A masthead and base could be welded up in aluminum or cast ones retrofitted. The aluminum section for a SW 36 mast comes in at 4.75 lbs per foot so u would want the wood spar the same or less. Would u have to worry about all of the stainless screws holding the track on eventually rotting out around each hole? I remember Larry Pardey wrote somewhere that using an anti fungal bitumastic bedding compound had rot prevention qualities. Our boat is aluminum so a steel mast isn't in the picture. Carbon is overpriced. Aluminum about $11,000.00. I wonder if I could put a wood one together for $5000? __________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12696|12696|2007-02-12 15:13:08|ANDREW AIREY|Tripod Masts was Re: carbon masts-why would you want one (keep it s|Hi All Has any one any experience of tripod masts at all.I'm collecting information with a view to designing a Dutch style sailing barge,which,although primarily intended for canal/river use,must also be capable of short sea passages.Canal/river use means that the mast must be lowerable for bridges but any overhang in locks is undesirable so I was wondering if a tripod mainmast into which the topmast could be lowered would work.This would be counterweighted in a tabernacle.Since sailing on a river or canal is only likely to be possible with a following wind a simplified mainsail like the Humber keels had would be used,while for marine use(no bridges) the topmast could be fully extended,the mainmast locked in place and counterweights removed if thought desirable and taken below as ballast.I think it might work best with a Gunter rig rather than the Dutch Gaff - keeps the mast height down,but there are other possibilities cheers Andy Airey ps Has anyone come up with a shallow draft origami hull - I'm not irretreivably wedded to the Dutch barge(Aak) form Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com| 12697|12690|2007-02-12 15:33:05|Bill Jaine|Re: Wooden spars?|We have a tayana 37 that was hurricane damaged, she lost the bowsprit and chainplates were pulled out by a 50 foot power boat that used her as a fender. Despite that the wooden mast survived, I put it down to woods ability to flex and recover. Aluminum wood have bent and been destroyed. I was not in favour of wood until i saw this Bill, Port Hope Paul Wilson wrote: > > I have an old but good article on building your own aluminum spars > using aluminum irrigation pipe. It is quite large (about 3mb) but if > anybody wants it I am happy to send it. Alternatively, I could try to > post it somewhere if anybody has an ideas. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12698|12690|2007-02-12 16:11:52|David A. Frantz|Re: Wooden spars?|Wood is a very interesting material to work with. It should be noted that wood was and likely still is used in airplane propellers due to the features Bill alludes to. That is its ability to flex and recover from wind loads. Of course some woods are better than others here and is something everyone considering wood for spars and such should look into. Dave Bill Jaine wrote: > > We have a tayana 37 that was hurricane damaged, she lost the bowsprit > and chainplates were pulled out by a 50 foot power boat that used her as > a fender. > Despite that the wooden mast survived, I put it down to woods ability to > flex and recover. Aluminum wood have bent and been destroyed. I was not > in favour of wood until i saw this > Bill, Port Hope > > Paul Wilson wrote: > > > > I have an old but good article on building your own aluminum spars > > using aluminum irrigation pipe. It is quite large (about 3mb) but if > > anybody wants it I am happy to send it. Alternatively, I could try to > > post it somewhere if anybody has an ideas. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12699|12690|2007-02-12 18:34:29|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: Wooden spars?|I, too, built a small mast section using the birdsmouth technique....I was impressed with the result despite a few woodworking flaws. Some folks even put a taper in a birdsmouth mast. I think you can find an article in Epoxyworks (free on the West Systems Epoxy webpage), but I could be mistaken and I may be thinking of the WoodenBoat article. Would you consider a solid wood mast? I was planning on a solid mast (even had the tree picked out), but I'll probably go with aluminum. I only switched because I decided I didn't want to build the mast; I'll just scrounge one for cheap. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Date: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:03 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Wooden spars? > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > Have any Swain boats gone with wooden spars? > > > > > > Wooden Boat did a neat series of articles a few years ago > detailing > the buildup of laminated lightweight spars. They used a technique > that I *think* was called "birds mouth" - basically, you cut > strips > in widths according to the final diameter of your spar, and used a > table saw to cut longitudinal notches along the length of the > strips. These strips were then banded & epoxied together (w/a 90 > degree corner of one strip fit into the notch of the adjoing > strip). After the epoxy cured, the raised corners were planed > smooth, and a belt sander used to rough-sand the spar to a conical > shape. > > I built a SMALL (12') mast like this, and though I had to paint it > to cover my woodworking mistakes, it was very stiff and light, and > worked well in the little dinghy. > > > > | 12700|12653|2007-02-12 19:12:31|Gary|Re: Steel hull repair|Coupla things.... would have to be wary of burning your insulation possibly setting off a fire. ...mostly though these are not seiously deep ..more like knicks and deep scratches... but thanks for comment.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "abellzey" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > In the 2 yrs since the launch the hull is a bit gouged, pocked and > > scraped from meeting dock hardware and other whatnot. What is best > > for plugging up these little indentations. I intend to repaint the > > hull this spring. > > > > Thanks. Gary > > > why not just run a bead of weld into the gouge and then grind it? > | 12701|12690|2007-02-12 20:54:32|Bill Jaine|Re: Wooden spars?|Jim Brown....Searunner fame......has instructions for building a wooden mast Bill, Port Hope, Canada paulcotter@... wrote: > > I, too, built a small mast section using the birdsmouth technique... > .I was impressed with the result despite a few woodworking flaws. Some > folks even put a taper in a birdsmouth mast. I think you can find an > article in Epoxyworks (free on the West Systems Epoxy webpage), but I > could be mistaken and I may be thinking of the WoodenBoat article. > > Would you consider a solid wood mast? I was planning on a solid mast > (even had the tree picked out), but I'll probably go with aluminum. I > only switched because I decided I didn't want to build the mast; I'll > just scrounge one for cheap. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12702|12690|2007-02-12 21:01:27|Carl Anderson|Re: Wooden spars?|Mickey, Winston Bushnell used wood for all three Brent boats he has built. (DOVE II, DOVE III, DOVE IV) His daughter Kim has a wood mast on her BS 28 (PUNA). IDEFIX IV, a BS 36, has a wooden mast with a double spreader standing rig. Yup there are Brent boats our there with wood masts. Carl > | 12703|12690|2007-02-12 21:11:32|Tom|Re: Wooden spars?|Back when I was racing in the local club There was a saying some of the old timers had about wooden mast . "There are the wooden mast that have broke and the others are going to brake". But then they were talking race boats, big differance. If I could find some good wood around here to build a mast I wouldnt mind having a wood one. The plans on the 26 call for a solid wood mast, simple to build. Tom| 12704|12691|2007-02-12 22:20:04|Tom|Re: standing up on a fin keel|Couple of thing come to mind on one setup like that, one would be the extra weight on the stern of the boat? When healed around 25% would the fin keel be slipping and the skeg-rudder be gripping more? and allso setting on the hard with only one end supported seems like a strong wind or a couple heavy people on one side of the deck might tip over like a trycycle. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "audeojude" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] standing up on a fin keel >I was curious why you don't see fin keels with dual rudders designed > to stand up and dry out like a bilge keel boat such as one of brents. > > What would happen if you had two skeg supported transom hung rudders. > Couldn't you design it so that you had your three points of contact? > the shoes of the skegs on the rudders and the fin keel? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12705|12705|2007-02-12 22:38:37|Tom|muriatic acid|Anyone have any experiance stripping rust and mill scale off with muriatic acid? I have been experimenting with it a bit on scrap and cleans it up in a hurry, Im thinking why not use it on the inside instead of sandblasting, would be a lot faster and a whole lot cheaper. Its not as good as the sanblasting profile on the steel but it is pretty clean. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12706|12705|2007-02-13 03:33:58|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: muriatic acid|It is a weak solution of Hydochloric used most often to clean morter off brick. I would be concerned with skin contact and off gassing of Chlorine gas as well as getting it in the eyes or longs. As you mentioned it wont give a good profile to bond paint to as well as nutralizing it. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Anyone have any experiance stripping rust and mill scale off with muriatic acid? I have been experimenting with it a bit on scrap and cleans it up in a hurry, Im thinking why not use it on the inside instead of sandblasting, would be a lot faster and a whole lot cheaper. Its not as good as the sanblasting profile on the steel but it is pretty clean. > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12707|12690|2007-02-13 08:32:50|Abraham George|Re: Wooden spars?|hi Paul could you please send me the aluminum spar making out of pipe article ?? thanks a ton,,, fair winds... Abraham George ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265| 12708|12691|2007-02-13 09:23:55|audeojude|Re: standing up on a fin keel|I would think you would have about 8 ft of spread on the rudders and skegs with them angled out about 15 to 20 degrees. between a longer single keel and that I would think that while not as stable as bilge keels sitting on the ground it would still be very very stable. Were talking about many tons of weight here. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Couple of thing come to mind on one setup like that, one would be the extra > weight on the stern of the boat? When healed around 25% would the fin keel > be slipping and the skeg-rudder be gripping more? and allso setting on the > hard with only one end supported seems like a strong wind or a couple heavy > people on one side of the deck might tip over like a trycycle. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "audeojude" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:27 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] standing up on a fin keel > > > >I was curious why you don't see fin keels with dual rudders designed > > to stand up and dry out like a bilge keel boat such as one of brents. > > > > What would happen if you had two skeg supported transom hung rudders. > > Couldn't you design it so that you had your three points of contact? > > the shoes of the skegs on the rudders and the fin keel? > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12709|12696|2007-02-13 11:23:24|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Shallow Draft origami|ANDREW AIREY wrote: > Hi All > > Has any one any experience of tripod masts at all.I'm > collecting information with a view to designing a > Dutch style sailing barge,which,although primarily > intended for canal/river use,must also be capable of > short sea passages. ... > Andy Airey > ps Has anyone come up with a shallow draft origami > hull - I'm not irretreivably wedded to the Dutch > barge(Aak) form > > This is an area that I wonder about also... I looks like you could make a "bow" and "stern" section Origami style, with the fairly constant shape of the center section that you get on the Dutch barge craft being welded plate... Did that make any sense? Bruce -- Bruce Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 12710|12710|2007-02-13 11:49:34|John Foster|Crank up mast with Kiteship sail was Re:Tripod Masts was Re: carbon|If all you want is sailing off the wind, with all wind angles from from beam reach port tack, through dead down wind to beam reach starboard tack, the simply use an Outleader kite from Kiteship. and a crank up radio antenna mast to launch the kite. One trade off between a Kite and a horizontal sail such as the A-Frame Crab Claw is that you can pretty well ignore the crab claw sail for long periods of time, while the kite does need someone watching it to keep it from diving into the water ahead of the boat. On the other hand the speed through the water of your barge pulled by the kite might be significantly faster than the barge being pulled by the Crab Claw. In either case you are pretty well limited by hull speed of your barge.| 12711|12711|2007-02-13 12:20:16|John Foster|A-Frame with Horizontal Crab Claw sail was Re:Tripod Masts was Re: |You might consider an rather short A frame mast held up with fore and aft running rigging shrouds that allow the A-Frame to be laid down either forward or aft. Locate the A-Frame at the fore and aft pivot point of the boat. Hoist a horizontal, crab claw sail from the upper spar to the apex of the the A-Frame such that the center of effort of the crab claw is below the attachment point when the crab claw is horizontal. This gives you a very effective, balanced sail which will surprise you with the ease of sailing at any point of the wind. With a lee-board on one side, or both, you will make surprisingly good progress to weather as well as off the wind. John| 12712|12712|2007-02-13 16:23:52|opuspaul|Building an aluminum mast|Hello all, I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast using standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the files section. Cheers, Paul| 12713|12712|2007-02-13 19:50:55|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Thanks Paul Nice way to convert to aluminum pipe. Was there any more instuctions to figure shrowd attachments and such? Just wondering if tabs and such could be welded to mast or would it weaken it to much. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "opuspaul" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > Hello all, > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast using > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the files > section. > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12714|12705|2007-02-13 20:07:06|brentswain38|Re: muriatic acid|Tried that . Takes a lot of very strong acid and its almost imposssible to get it all off so the corrosion doesn't continue behind the paint. Give it a miss. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It is a weak solution of Hydochloric used most often to clean morter > off brick. I would be concerned with skin contact and off gassing of > Chlorine gas as well as getting it in the eyes or longs. As you > mentioned it wont give a good profile to bond paint to as well as > nutralizing it. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Anyone have any experiance stripping rust and mill scale off with > muriatic acid? I have been experimenting with it a bit on scrap and > cleans it up in a hurry, Im thinking why not use it on the inside > instead of sandblasting, would be a lot faster and a whole lot > cheaper. Its not as good as the sanblasting profile on the steel but > it is pretty clean. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Tried thast| 12715|12712|2007-02-13 20:12:27|mickeyolaf|Re: Building an aluminum mast|You can buy 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe for about $350-400 CDN for a 50' piece at "BC Hydro Investment Recovery Disposal Sales" @ 604-590- 7565 in Surrey, BC. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Thanks Paul > Nice way to convert to aluminum pipe. Was there any more instuctions to > figure shrowd attachments and such? Just wondering if tabs and such could be > welded to mast or would it weaken it to much. > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "opuspaul" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > > > > Hello all, > > > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast using > > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the files > > section. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12716|12690|2007-02-13 20:18:47|brentswain38|Re: Wooden spars?|I've always used wooden masts because they were all I could afford. My first boat had a 6 inch solid round sitka spruce mast. I did the calculations on the box section that was recommended and found that the 6 inch was the same weight and a fraction the work, and no hollow inside to culture dry rot. It worked well . My current mast on my 31 footer is a single piece of sitka spruce 6 inches by 4 inches , no glue lines and only three knots the size of my little fingernail. It's worked well enough that I haven't been motivated to change it. Birds nest masts are a lot of extra work and glue lines for nothing. They are a gymicky, style over substance trick.Wood masts are better off structurally if they have more stiffness fore and aft if they are wood , which the birdsnest mast doesn't. Any taper on a mast should only start 70% above the deck. Starting the taper on a mast too soon is a common mistake. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Back when I was racing in the local club There was a saying some of the old > timers had about wooden mast . > "There are the wooden mast that have broke and the others are going to > brake". But then they were talking race boats, big differance. If I could > find some good wood around here to build a mast I wouldnt mind having a wood > one. The plans on the 26 call for a solid wood mast, simple to build. > Tom > | 12717|12691|2007-02-13 20:24:01|brentswain38|Re: standing up on a fin keel|The centre of gravity is too far foreward to allow adequate , safe support from the rudders. They would quite easily fall on their noses, then over sideways. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > I was curious why you don't see fin keels with dual rudders designed > to stand up and dry out like a bilge keel boat such as one of brents. > > What would happen if you had two skeg supported transom hung rudders. > Couldn't you design it so that you had your three points of contact? > the shoes of the skegs on the rudders and the fin keel? > | 12718|12705|2007-02-13 21:54:21|Jay K. Jeffries|Re: muriatic acid|Residual acid leads to future corrosion issues. Even when you clean and neutralize very thoroughly some acid remains in the minute cracks, pores, and intergranular spacing of the steel/metal and becomes a problem later on. R/Jay Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:36 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] muriatic acid Anyone have any experiance stripping rust and mill scale off with muriatic acid? I have been experimenting with it a bit on scrap and cleans it up in a hurry, Im thinking why not use it on the inside instead of sandblasting, would be a lot faster and a whole lot cheaper. Its not as good as the sanblasting profile on the steel but it is pretty clean. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12719|12712|2007-02-13 22:09:41|Paul Wilson|Re: Building an aluminum mast|I would favor stainless tangs with one big mother of a bolt right through the mast for attaching shrouds. The tangs can pivot then and align themselves. The angles are critical. The only welding on aluminum I would trust would be on small doublers for the mast wall where the bolts go through or maybe on a shieve box at the top of the mast. I don't remember what references I used since I don't have any of my books with me. I seem to remember Richard Henderson's book (Understanding Rigs and Rigging?) was pretty good as well as the stuff Brent writes. I designed some tangs using Skenes Elements of Yacht design and then scaled it up a bit to help me sleep at night. I was really lucky and got a used mast, so look out for bargains. I got mast, boom, all the fittings and the turnbuckles for $3000 Cdn. The guy who I bought it from had become disgusted with the price of new rigging and had gone down to California to shop for two used masts for his boat. He bought 5 masts, trucked them up to Canada and sold the extras to finance the trip. I believe he rented a trailer .....shipping costs were the same whether it was for 5 or 2. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:50:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast Thanks Paul Nice way to convert to aluminum pipe. Was there any more instuctions to figure shrowd attachments and such? Just wondering if tabs and such could be welded to mast or would it weaken it to much. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "opuspaul" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > Hello all, > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast using > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the files > section. > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12720|12641|2007-02-14 05:27:55|whec651972|Re: steel for BS31|Thanks the file you uploaded is just what I was asking about Leon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jnikadie" wrote: > > OK, I've uploaded a file ... "31' Hull From 3 x 20'x8' Sheets". > > It's based on the file "An Origamiboat model pattern" (which may not > be scaled for a 31'). > > It even has space for the bits that don't fit within the 8' width. > > I think that's the layout Leon had in mind. > > Does it get the seam close enough to amidships? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > Yes > > The important thing with such seams is that they should be nearly > > amidships where there is no conic curve . With the weld shrinking > > longitudinally , its hard to avoid the seam being pulled in when it is > > pulled into a conic curve. I think what I meant is 20 ft from the bow > > is OK. Mine was done that way. > > Brent > > > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > > > > > If you don't mind, Brent, to confirm I follow you, you're saying > > leave the bridges across the inside weld in place until after the hull > > is pulled together and the outside weld is done? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:02 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel for BS31 > > > > > > > > > 12 feet from the bow would be OK . You'll need 32 feet per side > . You > > > have to be very careful joining them. Put a full 45 degree bevel on > > > the inside and weld plenty of pieces of plate on edge accross > the seam > > > to keep it fair and straight . Fully weld it from the top with > 7024 , > > > three inches max on each weld , letting each one cool before putting > > > another weld next to it. Keep an eye out for pulling one way or the > > > other. The outside weld goes on after the hull is pulled > together. To > > > do it without distortion, you scour out just enough with a 1/8th > inch > > > cutting disc on the grinder to avoid slag entrapment , then do a > > > series of two inch long cool uphand welds two inches long with 6011, > > > letting each one cool completely before putting another weld > anywhere > > > near it, always keeping a careful eye out for any pulling either > way. > > > Only when it is cooled completely can you break the braces off the > > inside. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "whec651972" wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi been priceing the steel for the BS31 having a hard time > > finding the > > > > 32x8x3/16. would the layout for both sides fit on 3- 20x8x3/16 > > with the > > > > bows meeting in the middle the shear on opposite sides . And > > would the > > > > verticle weld seam be in an acceptable spot 12' from the bow. > > > > Thanks Leon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > | 12721|12653|2007-02-14 08:17:35|will jones|Re: Steel hull repair|I wouldn't hesitate to pull apart some ground fiberglass mat, fluff it and mix in some fiberglass resin and slap it on after prepping the surface. You are going to prime and paint and the fiberglass will fare out reasonably well. You could also just use silica instead of mat. Probably a better choice for cosmetic reasons. I'd take a couple of swipes with an 80 grit grinder to rough the surrounding area and lather it on. I remember my 69 RS Camaro after it was T-boned. I had cut and built out flares for my N50-15's using rubber 4x4 flares as a base wrapped in fiberglass. The car was bent into a V on the right side. The flares were cracked but you couldn't yank them off the car. Gary wrote: Coupla things.... would have to be wary of burning your insulation possibly setting off a fire. ...mostly though these are not seiously deep ..more like knicks and deep scratches... but thanks for comment.. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "abellzey" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > > > In the 2 yrs since the launch the hull is a bit gouged, pocked and > > scraped from meeting dock hardware and other whatnot. What is best > > for plugging up these little indentations. I intend to repaint the > > hull this spring. > > > > Thanks. Gary > > > why not just run a bead of weld into the gouge and then grind it? > Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12722|12705|2007-02-14 08:51:51|will jones|Re: muriatic acid|Doesn't work that well via surface applications. You need heat and a lot of time for concentrated hydochloric acid (HCl). HCl leaves a chlorine on many of the sites on iron atoms in steel. This later causes debonding issues with the paint, since the FeCl2 (or some variant) forms an acidic solution when exposed to moisture. So HCL is not typically used for this and other reasons. Descaling works best with concentrated sulfuric acid heated to 285 F with a couple of flowing rinses heated to 190F. You can get residual sulfate on the surface that will cause problems with paint coatings in the future, so you have to control that process also. Another problem is prepping the metal. A solvent wipe is usually not enough to clean the metal prior to acid etching. Typically metal is soaked in a 250F sodium hydroxide bath to degrease it prior to acid descaling. Any residual oil will prevent the metal from being effectively descaled. brentswain38 wrote: Tried that . Takes a lot of very strong acid and its almost imposssible to get it all off so the corrosion doesn't continue behind the paint. Give it a miss. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" wrote: > > It is a weak solution of Hydochloric used most often to clean morter > off brick. I would be concerned with skin contact and off gassing of > Chlorine gas as well as getting it in the eyes or longs. As you > mentioned it wont give a good profile to bond paint to as well as > nutralizing it. > > Jon > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Anyone have any experiance stripping rust and mill scale off with > muriatic acid? I have been experimenting with it a bit on scrap and > cleans it up in a hurry, Im thinking why not use it on the inside > instead of sandblasting, would be a lot faster and a whole lot > cheaper. Its not as good as the sanblasting profile on the steel but > it is pretty clean. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Tried thast Valhalla Morgan 33T IOR, Hull 24 Bloomington, IN --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12723|12653|2007-02-14 12:07:06|Benjamin A. Okopnik|Re: Steel hull repair|On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 05:17:25AM -0800, will jones wrote: > I wouldn't hesitate to pull apart some ground fiberglass mat, fluff it > and mix in some fiberglass resin and slap it on after prepping the > surface. You are going to prime and paint and the fiberglass will > fare out reasonably well. You could also just use silica instead of > mat. Probably a better choice for cosmetic reasons. I'd take a > couple of swipes with an 80 grit grinder to rough the surrounding area > and lather it on. I'd be very, very careful about that. The previous owner of Ulysses clearly didn't know anything about steel but was pretty good with fiberglass, so he ground out the rusty areas and glassed them (mat, etc.) Every one of them has turned into a complete rust pit - as the steel and the glass flexed at different rates, they came apart and trapped water in between. This is the reason that we're doing a major rebuild on the aft hatch: all the metal around it had rusted away and needed to be replaced. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12724|12690|2007-02-14 18:04:27|Charles K. Sollitt|Re: Wooden spars?|I've got a 14 ft spruce box boom with 316 SS fittings, an aluminum track and epoxy paint finish in Genoa Bay (Vancouver Island). It's never been used and looks brand new. I've replaced it with a 16 ft Yachtek aluminum boom with all the associated rigging. If you've got a truck, come get it- no cost. I won't ship it. Chuck _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mickeyolaf Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:02 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Wooden spars? Have any Swain boats gone with wooden spars? I think it would be an easy task to glue up a light wooden spar in the backyard. Glued up with resorcinol in two halves with the center routed out leaving solid wood where needed with a conduit for wires and water to pass. An aluminum tapped plate embedded for the goosneck attachment. Aluminum tube as compression sleeves for thru bolts. Probably the hard part would be finding really good quarter sawn spruce in long lengths (to eliminate too many scarfs). I've seen long beautiful planks of yellow cedar up in Campbell River but I don't know if yellow cedar would glue up well. I've been told never to glue up a mast with epoxy, only resorcinol. The inside of both halfs of the mast could be coated in epoxy (except for areas being glued) before gluing the two halves together. Aluminum sail track is readily available. A masthead and base could be welded up in aluminum or cast ones retrofitted. The aluminum section for a SW 36 mast comes in at 4.75 lbs per foot so u would want the wood spar the same or less. Would u have to worry about all of the stainless screws holding the track on eventually rotting out around each hole? I remember Larry Pardey wrote somewhere that using an anti fungal bitumastic bedding compound had rot prevention qualities. Our boat is aluminum so a steel mast isn't in the picture. Carbon is overpriced. Aluminum about $11,000.00. I wonder if I could put a wood one together for $5000? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12725|12690|2007-02-15 10:02:45|Claude|Re: Wooden spars?|Hello Brent. Is there some photos of your boat and mast in the photos section. If not, could you put some in? Claude > My current mast on my 31 footer is a single piece of sitka spruce 6 > inches by 4 inches , no glue lines and only three knots the size of > my little fingernail. | 12726|12726|2007-02-15 10:56:21|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Chain Locker|Hello every one, just thought that I would put a post about our chain locker. Steel, Chain, Saltwater & 10 yrs!!!!! Any way finally got it all chipped prepped and primed again. And then came up with a great thought for the top coat. Has anyone thought of or used Truck Bed Liner Paint??? Think I'm going to try it. If you think about it those construction workers or any one else that a truck and loads lots of gear into it, take allot of abuse. Seems to stand up in a truck so why not in a chain locker??? Any thoughts Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12727|12726|2007-02-15 14:30:14|brentswain38|Re: Chain Locker|Those stainless beer kegs make great chain lockers. You can stack two of them if you have to. The pub owners only pay a deposit of $35 so give one his deposit . If you put a cone shape in the bottom, pointy end up the chain won't pile up and fall over. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > Hello every one, just thought that I would put a post about our chain locker. Steel, Chain, Saltwater & 10 yrs!!!!! Any way finally got it all chipped prepped and primed again. And then came up with a great thought for the top coat. Has anyone thought of or used Truck Bed Liner Paint??? Think I'm going to try it. If you think about it those construction workers or any one else that a truck and loads lots of gear into it, take allot of abuse. Seems to stand up in a truck so why not in a chain locker??? > > Any thoughts > > Thanks > Cameron > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12728|12690|2007-02-15 14:32:19|brentswain38|Re: Wooden spars?|There are photos of my boat in the photos section and on the front cover of the DVD. The mast is 6 inches by 4 inches slightly rounded on the corners. The taper is the last 14 feet to 4 inches by 4 inches. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > Hello Brent. Is there some photos of your boat and mast in the photos > section. If not, could you put some in? > Claude > > > My current mast on my 31 footer is a single piece of sitka spruce 6 > > inches by 4 inches , no glue lines and only three knots the size of > > my little fingernail. > | 12729|12726|2007-02-15 15:03:51|David A. Frantz|Re: Chain Locker|I don't know about truck line "paint" but the stuff professionally applied was used by the navy before somebody got the bright idea to spray it into truck beds. My understanding is that this is a urethane type product. In any event it any well be worth looking into. Note that the same basic material is used to reinforce the ceramic plates in bullet prof vests. As far as spray on bed liners abilty to hold up tho the elements in this sort of application, I can't comment on. Seems like an idea worth trying at the very least. Thanks Dave Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > > Hello every one, just thought that I would put a post about our chain > locker. Steel, Chain, Saltwater & 10 yrs!!!!! Any way finally got it > all chipped prepped and primed again. And then came up with a great > thought for the top coat. Has anyone thought of or used Truck Bed > Liner Paint??? Think I'm going to try it. If you think about it those > construction workers or any one else that a truck and loads lots of > gear into it, take allot of abuse. Seems to stand up in a truck so why > not in a chain locker??? > > Any thoughts > > Thanks > Cameron > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12730|12726|2007-02-15 15:33:25|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Chain Locker|Thanks Dave might just try it and see what happens unless I hear of some one having adverse results. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Frantz To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Chain Locker I don't know about truck line "paint" but the stuff professionally applied was used by the navy before somebody got the bright idea to spray it into truck beds. My understanding is that this is a urethane type product. In any event it any well be worth looking into. Note that the same basic material is used to reinforce the ceramic plates in bullet prof vests. As far as spray on bed liners abilty to hold up tho the elements in this sort of application, I can't comment on. Seems like an idea worth trying at the very least. Thanks Dave Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn wrote: > > Hello every one, just thought that I would put a post about our chain > locker. Steel, Chain, Saltwater & 10 yrs!!!!! Any way finally got it > all chipped prepped and primed again. And then came up with a great > thought for the top coat. Has anyone thought of or used Truck Bed > Liner Paint??? Think I'm going to try it. If you think about it those > construction workers or any one else that a truck and loads lots of > gear into it, take allot of abuse. Seems to stand up in a truck so why > not in a chain locker??? > > Any thoughts > > Thanks > Cameron > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12731|12726|2007-02-15 15:35:39|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Chain Locker|Sounds like a good idea unfortunately I don't have the room for a used keg. But great Idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:29 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Chain Locker Those stainless beer kegs make great chain lockers. You can stack two of them if you have to. The pub owners only pay a deposit of $35 so give one his deposit . If you put a cone shape in the bottom, pointy end up the chain won't pile up and fall over. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn" wrote: > > Hello every one, just thought that I would put a post about our chain locker. Steel, Chain, Saltwater & 10 yrs!!!!! Any way finally got it all chipped prepped and primed again. And then came up with a great thought for the top coat. Has anyone thought of or used Truck Bed Liner Paint??? Think I'm going to try it. If you think about it those construction workers or any one else that a truck and loads lots of gear into it, take allot of abuse. Seems to stand up in a truck so why not in a chain locker??? > > Any thoughts > > Thanks > Cameron > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12732|12732|2007-02-15 23:52:11|jaosved|Kids and BS36|Hi, I'm new to the site and enjoyed brousing through the privous postings. Have a some questions that I'll put under different headers. If it was just my wife and myself, we'd probably be looking at a 31 footer, but with three kids (ages 7, 5 and 5) we would realistically need something bigger. By looking through the pictures, I've got some sense of the space on a 36. I never really have a good sense until I've visted one - but in the meantime I'd like to hear what the experiences of others who have sailed extensively with kids have been in terms of space/storage/etc. Thanks. Joel Garfield, WA| 12733|12733|2007-02-15 23:58:27|jaosved|Cockpit Views|Question number 2. I understand that there is a bit of leeway (pun intended) in how high to make the pilot-house (and likewise how low). But I'm wondering if my wife will be able to see over it while tiller steering from the cockpit - if the pilot house is built to height designed. She's 5'4". We currently have a Balboa 26, and it is one of her major complaints - that she has to stand to see over the coachroof. The only pictures I've seen of people in the cockpit have been on the trip/video Alex and crew had on Silas Crosby. Thanks. Joel| 12734|12733|2007-02-16 00:09:57|Carl Anderson|Re: Cockpit Views|Joel, If you can't see over it then make it so you can see through it. That is our solution to this dilemma. Same idea as a Pacific Seacraft 32 pilothouse. Anyway everything on a boat is a compromise. You just have to figure out what your compromises will be. Good luck & happy building. Carl jaosved wrote: > Question number 2. > > I understand that there is a bit of leeway (pun intended) in how high > to make the pilot-house > (and likewise how low). But I'm wondering if my wife will be able to > see over it while tiller > steering from the cockpit - if the pilot house is built to height > designed. She's 5'4". We > currently have a Balboa 26, and it is one of her major complaints - > that she has to stand to > see over the coachroof. The only pictures I've seen of people in the > cockpit have been on the > trip/video Alex and crew had on Silas Crosby. > > Thanks. > > Joel > > | 12735|12732|2007-02-16 08:49:05|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Kids and BS36|We live aboard full time with two kids soon to be 5 & 4 although our boat is not an origami boat it is steel. Its a Bruce Roberts 53-2 extended during the build to 56'. We managed to get the boat for a really good price because it isn't finished on the interior. Although as time went on there we have put alot of time and money into the boat however it is all below the floor boards where it counts. So at the moment the interior still looks the same as when we bought it, hence the term B.O.A.T (BRING OUT ANOTHER THOUSAND) We do have a fair amount of room but like anything all storage has to be thought out, especially when still working ashore and kids going to school. Any way my thoughts are that if you can get something that cheap and unfinished and has the space you want then go for it. Then you can add or remove things to your taste as time goes on. Hope this helps. You can see some pics of our boat at www.trans-marine.net Cameron. ----- Original Message ----- From: jaosved To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Kids and BS36 Hi, I'm new to the site and enjoyed brousing through the privous postings. Have a some questions that I'll put under different headers. If it was just my wife and myself, we'd probably be looking at a 31 footer, but with three kids (ages 7, 5 and 5) we would realistically need something bigger. By looking through the pictures, I've got some sense of the space on a 36. I never really have a good sense until I've visted one - but in the meantime I'd like to hear what the experiences of others who have sailed extensively with kids have been in terms of space/storage/etc. Thanks. Joel Garfield, WA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12736|12733|2007-02-16 08:50:15|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Cockpit Views|Have you looked into setting the pilot house at a height you want with big enough window's that you can see through them while sitting down at the tiller. Just a thought. Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: jaosved To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cockpit Views Question number 2. I understand that there is a bit of leeway (pun intended) in how high to make the pilot-house (and likewise how low). But I'm wondering if my wife will be able to see over it while tiller steering from the cockpit - if the pilot house is built to height designed. She's 5'4". We currently have a Balboa 26, and it is one of her major complaints - that she has to stand to see over the coachroof. The only pictures I've seen of people in the cockpit have been on the trip/video Alex and crew had on Silas Crosby. Thanks. Joel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12737|12732|2007-02-16 09:27:46|Bridget van Wyk (Hotmail)|Re: Kids and BS36|We sail 3-4 months of every year on a Wharram catamaran with our 2 daughters aged 2 and 3. They absolutely love it and we are hoping to make it a more permanent arrangement over the next couple of years. Prior to having the 2 kids our 42ft felt extremely spacious, but toddlers eat up space. One thing I would def make sure of is having a cockpit that is spacious enough for you all to be on deck at the same time and in safety when the conditions are not ideal. Our kids hate being down below but our cockpit is small and it causes no end of stress when conditions are too rough for them to be on the decks but not bad enough to insist on them being down below. I am still trying to persuade my multihull husband to go down the steel monohull route - hence the interest in this forum. Bridget Sailing Bananas _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: 16 February 2007 13:48 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Kids and BS36 We live aboard full time with two kids soon to be 5 & 4 although our boat is not an origami boat it is steel. Its a Bruce Roberts 53-2 extended during the build to 56'. We managed to get the boat for a really good price because it isn't finished on the interior. Although as time went on there we have put alot of time and money into the boat however it is all below the floor boards where it counts. So at the moment the interior still looks the same as when we bought it, hence the term B.O.A.T (BRING OUT ANOTHER THOUSAND) We do have a fair amount of room but like anything all storage has to be thought out, especially when still working ashore and kids going to school. Any way my thoughts are that if you can get something that cheap and unfinished and has the space you want then go for it. Then you can add or remove things to your taste as time goes on. Hope this helps. You can see some pics of our boat at www.trans-marine.net Cameron. ----- Original Message ----- From: jaosved To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Kids and BS36 Hi, I'm new to the site and enjoyed brousing through the privous postings. Have a some questions that I'll put under different headers. If it was just my wife and myself, we'd probably be looking at a 31 footer, but with three kids (ages 7, 5 and 5) we would realistically need something bigger. By looking through the pictures, I've got some sense of the space on a 36. I never really have a good sense until I've visted one - but in the meantime I'd like to hear what the experiences of others who have sailed extensively with kids have been in terms of space/storage/etc. Thanks. Joel Garfield, WA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12738|12732|2007-02-16 10:41:40|Jim Phillips|Re: Kids and BS36|During a circumnavigation in the 1980s, when my sister grew from a 3 month old toddler to a 3 yo little girl, she had a baby seat from a car that was installed in the cockpit. This meant that when things got a little rough or there would be a tack with sheets flying about the cockpit, we would strap her in to keep her out of the way but she was still present. Time flies.... This week she is on her honeymoon, sailing in the whitsundays with her own son. ----- Original Message ---- From: Bridget van Wyk (Hotmail) To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 23 February, 2007 11:26:49 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Kids and BS36 We sail 3-4 months of every year on a Wharram catamaran with our 2 daughters aged 2 and 3. They absolutely love it and we are hoping to make it a more permanent arrangement over the next couple of years. Prior to having the 2 kids our 42ft felt extremely spacious, but toddlers eat up space. One thing I would def make sure of is having a cockpit that is spacious enough for you all to be on deck at the same time and in safety when the conditions are not ideal. Our kids hate being down below but our cockpit is small and it causes no end of stress when conditions are too rough for them to be on the decks but not bad enough to insist on them being down below. I am still trying to persuade my multihull husband to go down the steel monohull route - hence the interest in this forum. Bridget Sailing Bananas _____ From: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:origamiboat s@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn Sent: 16 February 2007 13:48 To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Kids and BS36 We live aboard full time with two kids soon to be 5 & 4 although our boat is not an origami boat it is steel. Its a Bruce Roberts 53-2 extended during the build to 56'. We managed to get the boat for a really good price because it isn't finished on the interior. Although as time went on there we have put alot of time and money into the boat however it is all below the floor boards where it counts. So at the moment the interior still looks the same as when we bought it, hence the term B.O.A.T (BRING OUT ANOTHER THOUSAND) We do have a fair amount of room but like anything all storage has to be thought out, especially when still working ashore and kids going to school. Any way my thoughts are that if you can get something that cheap and unfinished and has the space you want then go for it. Then you can add or remove things to your taste as time goes on. Hope this helps. You can see some pics of our boat at www.trans-marine. net Cameron. ----- Original Message ----- From: jaosved To: origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:52 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Kids and BS36 Hi, I'm new to the site and enjoyed brousing through the privous postings. Have a some questions that I'll put under different headers. If it was just my wife and myself, we'd probably be looking at a 31 footer, but with three kids (ages 7, 5 and 5) we would realistically need something bigger. By looking through the pictures, I've got some sense of the space on a 36. I never really have a good sense until I've visted one - but in the meantime I'd like to hear what the experiences of others who have sailed extensively with kids have been in terms of space/storage/ etc. Thanks. Joel Garfield, WA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12739|12732|2007-02-16 11:12:39|khooper_fboats|Re: Kids and BS36|Those of you looking for room for a family might be interested in this 45' midship cockpit origami design by Yves Tanton which is currently being drawn: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5917/cat/500/ppuser/9830 http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5916/cat/500/ppuser/9830 This is designed specifically for a couple with two kids. Some of the family-friendly features are two teenager-sized staterooms foreward; separate shower and head; owner's stateroom is accessed by walkthrough but it is still very private back there (Mom and Dad do not have to access their room through the cockpit. Moms like that.) Bilge keels, transom rudder, designed for easy beaching and owner maintenance. Uncommonly large engine room to make mechanic-ing easier and store tools. Cockpit will be dodgered & heated in protected waters for glacier watching. 3/16" steel hull, 1/4" plate between the keels, 1/4" inch transom, heavy chine reinforcement, massive stem reinforcement, close attention to keel webs, close attention to longitudinal reinforcement and several transverse bulkheads. Extremely strong boat for precious cargo. I don't expect it to go very fast. Not sure if that would frustrate folks used to speedy Wharram vessels. =^ ) Designer is here: http://www.tantonyachts.com Tanton has also drawn a 39-foot origami with midship and aft cockpit options. I understand a couple of these have been built already but have seen no pictures. He is a wizard with interiors so tell him how many children to accomodate and watch him fit it in there.| 12740|12712|2007-02-16 17:18:37|brentswain38|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Sounds great. Do they have smaller ones like 4 1/2 inch sch 40( 5 inch OD)? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > You can buy 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe for about $350-400 CDN for a > 50' piece at "BC Hydro Investment Recovery Disposal Sales" @ 604- 590- > 7565 in Surrey, BC. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Thanks Paul > > Nice way to convert to aluminum pipe. Was there any more > instuctions to > > figure shrowd attachments and such? Just wondering if tabs and such > could be > > welded to mast or would it weaken it to much. > > Tom > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "opuspaul" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast > using > > > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the > files > > > section. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12741|12732|2007-02-16 17:28:55|brentswain38|Re: Kids and BS36|Scott and Freddie just left for California and points beyond with a couple of kids in a 36. When someone comments on the size of the boat Freddie says"It's bigger than our apartment in Paris was." Winston did a circumnavigation with two teenage daughters aboard and had a son born in South Africa. One of the daughters just started cruising in a 27 footer. Dont let the size of our boat exceed your budget or like so many you'll not end up sailing anywhere. Too big a boat has killed more cruising dreams than any other cause. My 40 footer is twice the size of the 36. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jaosved" wrote: > > Hi, I'm new to the site and enjoyed brousing through the privous postings. Have a some > questions that I'll put under different headers. > If it was just my wife and myself, we'd probably be looking at a 31 footer, but with three kids > (ages 7, 5 and 5) we would realistically need something bigger. By looking through the > pictures, I've got some sense of the space on a 36. I never really have a good sense until I've > visted one - but in the meantime I'd like to hear what the experiences of others who have > sailed extensively with kids have been in terms of space/storage/etc. > Thanks. > Joel > Garfield, WA > | 12742|12733|2007-02-16 17:37:51|brentswain38|Re: Cockpit Views|Visibility is only one issue.There is also the issue of raising the weight of the wheelhouse and windage. Raising the wheelhouse also eliminates the ability to use the space under the side decks as countertop space. The windage in a wheelhouse can drastically reduce windward perfornmance, as can raising the centre of gravity and thus reducing stability. Once the wheelhouse is high enough to enable the helmsman to see the horizon , there is no real advantage in going higher. You can go another ten feet higher without seeing any more or improving your line of sight any more. Want to build with housey priorities ? Build a houseboat, and try get it to sail to windward.Don't blame the designer if it doesn't. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Joel, > > If you can't see over it then make it so you can see through it. > That is our solution to this dilemma. > Same idea as a Pacific Seacraft 32 pilothouse. > > Anyway everything on a boat is a compromise. > You just have to figure out what your compromises will be. > > Good luck & happy building. > > Carl > > > jaosved wrote: > > > Question number 2. > > > > I understand that there is a bit of leeway (pun intended) in how high > > to make the pilot-house > > (and likewise how low). But I'm wondering if my wife will be able to > > see over it while tiller > > steering from the cockpit - if the pilot house is built to height > > designed. She's 5'4". We > > currently have a Balboa 26, and it is one of her major complaints - > > that she has to stand to > > see over the coachroof. The only pictures I've seen of people in the > > cockpit have been on the > > trip/video Alex and crew had on Silas Crosby. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Joel > > > > > | 12743|12712|2007-02-16 19:15:54|mickeyolaf|Re: Building an aluminum mast|It's a huge yard full of pipe, metal cabinets and boxes and stuff I wouldn't recognize what its used for. You name it, if Hydro used it its out in that storage yard. . They also have an indoor warehouse full of stuff for sale, some new, some used. There was alot of aluminum pipe every size and length when I was there (and they don't always know what they have out in the yard)so u have to look around. A phone call to them will start the process and if they have a piece u want they will reserve it for u. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Sounds great. Do they have smaller ones like 4 1/2 inch sch 40( 5 > inch OD)? > Brent > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" > wrote: > > > > You can buy 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe for about $350-400 CDN for > a > > 50' piece at "BC Hydro Investment Recovery Disposal Sales" @ 604- > 590- > > 7565 in Surrey, BC. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Paul > > > Nice way to convert to aluminum pipe. Was there any more > > instuctions to > > > figure shrowd attachments and such? Just wondering if tabs and > such > > could be > > > welded to mast or would it weaken it to much. > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "opuspaul" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum > mast > > using > > > > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the > > files > > > > section. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12744|12712|2007-02-16 19:57:08|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|If building an aluminum mast and using galvanized rigging would all the tangs on the mast have to be isolated from the aluminum? and allso isolated from the stainless mast step? Tom| 12745|12712|2007-02-16 20:51:50|mickeyolaf|Re: Building an aluminum mast|I was told by a rigger to paint liquid urethane on every metal surface contacting another including washers etc. Also to TefGel every thread to prevent gauling and corrosion. Bolts thru bolted can be isolated in plastic conduit so they don't touch the mast or hardware and nylon washers can be placed ahead of the 316 stainless ones to further isolate the surfaces. I bought 1 x 19, 316ss, 5/16th wire for $1.11 CDN a foot. Is galvanized a better price? I don't know if galvanized in contact with stainless tangs would be a problem. But it makes sense the more isolated the metals the better especially near the deck and spray. I bought a highfield lever that was chromed bronze and stainless and the two metals were isolated with nylon washers and sleeves by whatever company made it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > If building an aluminum mast and using galvanized rigging would all the > tangs on the mast have to be isolated from the aluminum? and allso isolated > from the stainless mast step? > Tom > | 12746|12712|2007-02-17 09:30:47|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Yes Galvanized is a lot cheaper, we buy 1x7 3/8" for dairy fences and last price I got was around 17 cents a foot. I need 1/4" 1x7 for the 26 and I found it online for $50 US for a 250 foot roll. Hot dipped galvanized 1/2" turnbucles for the 26 are $7 each, I'm figuring less than $200 for all the standing rigging . Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeyolaf" To: Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast >I was told by a rigger to paint liquid urethane on every metal surface > contacting another including washers etc. Also to TefGel every thread > to prevent gauling and corrosion. > Bolts thru bolted can be isolated in plastic conduit so they don't > touch the mast or hardware and nylon washers can be placed ahead of the > 316 stainless ones to further isolate the surfaces. > I bought 1 x 19, 316ss, 5/16th wire for $1.11 CDN a foot. Is galvanized > a better price? > I don't know if galvanized in contact with stainless tangs would be a > problem. But it makes sense the more isolated the metals the better > especially near the deck and spray. > I bought a highfield lever that was chromed bronze and stainless and > the two metals were isolated with nylon washers and sleeves by whatever > company made it. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> If building an aluminum mast and using galvanized rigging would all > the >> tangs on the mast have to be isolated from the aluminum? and allso > isolated >> from the stainless mast step? >> Tom >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12747|12747|2007-02-18 00:43:25|shaunbarrymcmillan|orgamiboats2|I tried to get into orgami boats 2 but could not do it, has anyone had simliar troubles or soluations-thanks| 12748|12747|2007-02-18 03:11:57|Aaron Williams|Re: orgamiboats2|No problem I just right in shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: I tried to get into orgami boats 2 but could not do it, has anyone had simliar troubles or soluations-thanks --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12749|12712|2007-02-18 03:53:27|edward_stoneuk|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Tom, How are you going to make off the ends of the galvanised rigging? Regards, Ted| 12750|12750|2007-02-18 04:03:35|edward_stoneuk|Heater exhaust|The exhaust chimney for the heater wether it be paraffin, diesel or solid fuel need to be good in order to avoid a build up of fumes in the cabin. Yet we go to some touble to seal all possible points of entry for the sea in storm conditions. What views are there in sealing the stove chimney? Regards, Ted| 12751|1509|2007-02-18 09:03:00|jeagle999|Insulation|The foam insulation that is sprayed on the steel is it flame, fire and heat retarded? If not how to do make it safer? John| 12752|12712|2007-02-18 09:43:01|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Hello Ted The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized thimble, I bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a rigging shop to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig yourself so I think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. The mast end I have seen some where the tangs were built large enough with a big enough hole you put the cable end together through the hole, the turnbuckle end simply pin or bolts in the jaw or if you buy eye to jaw turnbuckles you could asemble the cable end through the eye and eliminate the pin or bolt. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > Tom, > > How are you going to make off the ends of the galvanised rigging? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12753|1509|2007-02-18 10:27:13|Carl Anderson|Re: Insulation|Paint it with fire retardant paint & it will be a lot harder to get ignited. Carl jeagle999 wrote: > The foam insulation that is sprayed on the steel is it flame, fire and > heat > retarded? If not how to do make it safer? > > John > > | 12754|12712|2007-02-18 18:52:56|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Building an aluminum mast|I wonder if anyone has tried the preforms used by ALL the power companies for guy wires? When I was doing pole line work they were cheap and fast. You simply wrap them onto the open end of the cable and you are done. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > Hello Ted > The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized thimble, I > bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a rigging shop > to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig yourself so > I > think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. The mast end I have seen > some > where the tangs were built large enough with a big enough hole you put the > cable end together through the hole, the turnbuckle end simply pin or > bolts > in the jaw or if you buy eye to jaw turnbuckles you could asemble the > cable > end through the eye and eliminate the pin or bolt. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > > >> Tom, >> >> How are you going to make off the ends of the galvanised rigging? >> >> Regards, >> >> Ted >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > | 12755|12712|2007-02-18 19:15:34|Carl Anderson|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Gary, I have used them to install a radio tower guy system but used conventional cable clamps and eyes for the finished product. They did work very well (the preforms). Carl Gary H. Lucas wrote: > I wonder if anyone has tried the preforms used by ALL the power companies > for guy wires? When I was doing pole line work they were cheap and fast. > You simply wrap them onto the open end of the cable and you are done. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:42 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > > > Hello Ted > > The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized thimble, I > > bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a > rigging shop > > to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig > yourself so > > I > > think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. The mast end I have seen > > some > > where the tangs were built large enough with a big enough hole you > put the > > cable end together through the hole, the turnbuckle end simply pin or > > bolts > > in the jaw or if you buy eye to jaw turnbuckles you could asemble the > > cable > > end through the eye and eliminate the pin or bolt. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:53 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > > > > > >> Tom, > >> > >> How are you going to make off the ends of the galvanised rigging? > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ted > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > | 12756|12712|2007-02-18 21:56:43|Ben Okopnik|Re: Building an aluminum mast|On Sun, Feb 18, 2007 at 06:42:41AM -0800, Tom wrote: > Hello Ted > The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized thimble, I > bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a rigging shop > to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig yourself so I > think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. A Nicopress swaging tool is about $40; a full crimper is about $150. The former is cheap and small; the latter, which looks like a cable cutter, is a lot faster and easier. No shop required. -- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *| 12757|12757|2007-02-18 23:47:37|shaunbarrymcmillan|nicropress fittings|I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions I am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?)| 12758|12757|2007-02-19 09:17:00|mkriley48|Re: nicropress fittings|there seems to be a trend to reinventing the wheel here! the traditional method for galvinized is to use poured zinc sockets. cheap easy and reusable and galvanic compatible. mike -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions I > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > | 12759|12712|2007-02-19 09:18:00|audeojude|Re: Building an aluminum mast|you can pick up a full crimper on ebay for in the $40 and under range a lot of the time. I got one for 35 about a year ago and they guy was selling alot of them. I have seen him selling them on there since also. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2007 at 06:42:41AM -0800, Tom wrote: > > Hello Ted > > The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized thimble, I > > bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a rigging shop > > to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig yourself so I > > think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. > > A Nicopress swaging tool is about $40; a full crimper is about $150. The > former is cheap and small; the latter, which looks like a cable cutter, > is a lot faster and easier. No shop required. > > > -- > * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET * > | 12760|12757|2007-02-19 09:51:15|Carl Anderson|Re: nicropress fittings|Mike, And your source of modern poured sockets is? Carl mkriley48 wrote: > there seems to be a trend to reinventing the wheel here! > the traditional method for galvinized is to use poured zinc sockets. > cheap easy and reusable and galvanic compatible. > mike > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions I > > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > > > > | 12761|12626|2007-02-19 11:29:43|Keith Wingate|Re: stainless for dry exhaust|I have been following the wire rope termination discussion. Online, I came across the "HANDBOOK OF OCEANOGRAPHIC WINCH, WIRE AND CABLE TECHNOLOGY", 3rd edition, 1999. The link is http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/index.html Not specifically directed at rigging sailboats there is some interesting information. Chapter 5 discusses cable termination. The table of contents: Introduction (40K) Chapter 1 - 3X19 Oceanographic Wire Rope (676K) Author: W.A. Lucht /3rd Edition Review: Larry Means Chapter 2 - Oceanographic Electromechanical Cables (1.1MB) Author: Albert G. Berian/3rd Edition Review: Len Onderdonk Chapter 3 - High Strength Synthetic Fiber Ropes (44K) Author: Simeon Whitehill/3rd Edition Review: Simeon Whitehill Jr. Chapter 4 - Fiber Optic Telemetry in Ocean Cable Systems (574K) Author: George Wilkins/3rd Edition Review: George Wilkins Chapter 5 - Rope and Cable Terminations (1MB) Author: Robert Shaw/3rd Edition Review: Tom Coughlin Chapter 6 - Wire Rope and E-M Cable Lubrication (364K) Author: Emile Grignard/3rd Edition Review: Etienne Grignard Chapter 7 - Cable and Winch Documentation (226K) Author: Alan H. Driscoll/3rd Edition Review: Rich Findley Chapter 8 - Operational Characteristics of Ropes and Cables (436K) Author: Phil T. Gibson/3rd Edition Review: Phil T. Gibson Chapter 9 - Equipment Lowering Mechanics (416K) Author: Henri O. Berteaux/3rd Edition Review: J.F.Bash Chapter 10 -Single Drum Winch Design (1MB) Author: Mike Markey/3rd Edition Review: Mike Markey Chapter 11 - Double Drum Traction Design (96K) Author: H.W. Johnson & J.E. DeDet/3rd Edition Rewrite: J. Stasny Chapter 12 - Useful Information (722K) Author: Alan H. Driscoll/3rd Edition Review: J.F. Bash -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM| 12762|12762|2007-02-19 13:27:24|Keith Wingate|Wire rope termination|My apologies, I forgot to change the subject line on my last post. I have been following the wire rope termination discussion. Online, I came across the "HANDBOOK OF OCEANOGRAPHIC WINCH, WIRE AND CABLE TECHNOLOGY", 3rd edition, 1999. The link is http://www.unols.org/publications/winch_wire_handbook__3rd_ed/index.html Not specifically directed at rigging sailboats there is some interesting information. Chapter 5 discusses cable termination. The table of contents: Introduction (40K) Chapter 1 - 3X19 Oceanographic Wire Rope (676K) Author: W.A. Lucht /3rd Edition Review: Larry Means Chapter 2 - Oceanographic Electromechanical Cables (1.1MB) Author: Albert G. Berian/3rd Edition Review: Len Onderdonk Chapter 3 - High Strength Synthetic Fiber Ropes (44K) Author: Simeon Whitehill/3rd Edition Review: Simeon Whitehill Jr. Chapter 4 - Fiber Optic Telemetry in Ocean Cable Systems (574K) Author: George Wilkins/3rd Edition Review: George Wilkins Chapter 5 - Rope and Cable Terminations (1MB) Author: Robert Shaw/3rd Edition Review: Tom Coughlin Chapter 6 - Wire Rope and E-M Cable Lubrication (364K) Author: Emile Grignard/3rd Edition Review: Etienne Grignard Chapter 7 - Cable and Winch Documentation (226K) Author: Alan H. Driscoll/3rd Edition Review: Rich Findley Chapter 8 - Operational Characteristics of Ropes and Cables (436K) Author: Phil T. Gibson/3rd Edition Review: Phil T. Gibson Chapter 9 - Equipment Lowering Mechanics (416K) Author: Henri O. Berteaux/3rd Edition Review: J.F.Bash Chapter 10 -Single Drum Winch Design (1MB) Author: Mike Markey/3rd Edition Review: Mike Markey Chapter 11 - Double Drum Traction Design (96K) Author: H.W. Johnson & J.E. DeDet/3rd Edition Rewrite: J. Stasny Chapter 12 - Useful Information (722K) Author: Alan H. Driscoll/3rd Edition Review: J.F. Bash -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM| 12763|12712|2007-02-19 18:31:10|brentswain38|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Aluminium boats use zincs for protection just like steel ones. Galvanising will protect aluminium unlike stainless which reacts mildly with it. If I went for aluminium I'd ise all galvanized fittings as corrosion is minimal up the mast. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > If building an aluminum mast and using galvanized rigging would all the > tangs on the mast have to be isolated from the aluminum? and allso isolated > from the stainless mast step? > Tom > | 12764|12757|2007-02-19 18:33:25|brentswain38|Re: nicropress fittings|Aluminum nicopress fittings are nowhere near strong enough unless you put it over a farm splice (mollyhogan, flemish splice) Stainless ones are adequate. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions I > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > | 12765|12757|2007-02-19 18:36:21|brentswain38|Re: nicropress fittings|My book tells you how to make poured sockets. Just cut a slice out of a 3/4 sch 40 pipe , hammer it to a cone , weld up the slice and weld a loop on it. You can make enough to rig an entire boat in an hour. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Mike, > > And your source of modern poured sockets is? > > Carl > > > mkriley48 wrote: > > > there seems to be a trend to reinventing the wheel here! > > the traditional method for galvinized is to use poured zinc sockets. > > cheap easy and reusable and galvanic compatible. > > mike > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > , "shaunbarrymcmillan" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > > > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions I > > > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > > > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > > > > > > > > | 12766|12750|2007-02-19 21:46:47|Tom|Re: Heater exhaust|Ted The only idea I can come up with to make a water tight seal is if you use a standard pipe size through the roof with a threaded end on top then screw on rain-splash cover then in the rough unscrew cover and screw on a pipe cap. chimney could be kept a lot lower when not in use. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Heater exhaust > The exhaust chimney for the heater wether it be paraffin, diesel or > solid fuel need to be good in order to avoid a build up of fumes in the > cabin. Yet we go to some touble to seal all possible points of entry > for the sea in storm conditions. What views are there in sealing the > stove chimney? > Regards, > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12767|12757|2007-02-19 22:59:55|jnikadie|Re: nicropress fittings|http://americanriggers.thomasnet.com/item/wire-rope-slings-sockets-zinc-or-resin-poured/poured-sockets/ps-031?&seo=110 --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Mike, > > And your source of modern poured sockets is? > > Carl | 12768|12768|2007-02-20 08:29:35|jeagle999|Medical insurance while you cruising, What to do?|Medical insurance while you cruising, what is the cost and who are the providers? JOHN| 12769|12750|2007-02-20 08:41:39|jeagle999|Re: Heater exhaust|I do not know either but here are some other guess to ponder? •Place heave duty balloon over the pipe when sailing •Thread the out side or inside to ABS 2", 3", 4" and place a plastic cap or plug if inside threads. There is also a rubber coupler in ABS that use a clamp and to steel pipe to plastic pipe. Than you can go to a plug or cap that is plastic than you would not need threads. Any plumbing supply store. •Make a cork from wood or cork. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Ted > The only idea I can come up with to make a water tight seal is if you use > a standard pipe size through the roof with a threaded end on top then screw > on rain-splash cover then in the rough unscrew cover and screw on a pipe > cap. chimney could be kept a lot lower when not in use. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:03 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Heater exhaust > > > > The exhaust chimney for the heater wether it be paraffin, diesel or > > solid fuel need to be good in order to avoid a build up of fumes in the > > cabin. Yet we go to some touble to seal all possible points of entry > > for the sea in storm conditions. What views are there in sealing the > > stove chimney? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12770|12768|2007-02-20 18:31:22|brentswain38|Re: Medical insurance while you cruising, What to do?|I'd steer clear of Travel Underwriters , Worldwide Mediclaim. I once made a claim with them and they simply refused to pay, because I didn't have a credit card ( for them to put my expenses on and force me to go to court to get reimbursed .) Ive met many others who have had major problems dealing with them. The consumer guides recommend Voyager as one of the best. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > Medical insurance while you cruising, what is the cost and who are the > providers? > > > JOHN > | 12771|12757|2007-02-20 20:45:00|peter_d_wiley|Re: nicropress fittings|If you're talking about a sleeve pressed in place with some anaemic set of hand dies, you may be right. If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire worth 10X the value of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading of up to 20 tonnes. We've load tested them on instrumented test benches and have certificates stating that such eyes etc have the stated safe working load (usually 1/4 of the test load). There is nothing wrong with a properly applied, swaged aluminium sleeve over galvanised wire. I'm just back from a research cruise in the Southern Ocean and guess what we've been using on our wires? Guess what every fishing boat I've ever worked on in the last 30 years uses? PDW > Aluminum nicopress fittings are nowhere near strong enough unless you > put it over a farm splice (mollyhogan, flemish splice) Stainless ones > are adequate. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > wrote: > > > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions > I > > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > > > | 12772|12712|2007-02-20 20:48:54|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|I havent come across a hand tool yet that can crimp 1/4" stainless nicropress fittings, aluminum, bronze and brass yes. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "audeojude" To: Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > you can pick up a full crimper on ebay for in the $40 and under range > a lot of the time. I got one for 35 about a year ago and they guy was > selling alot of them. I have seen him selling them on there since also. > > scott > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Ben Okopnik wrote: >> >> On Sun, Feb 18, 2007 at 06:42:41AM -0800, Tom wrote: >> > Hello Ted >> > The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized > thimble, I >> > bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a > rigging shop >> > to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig > yourself so I >> > think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. >> >> A Nicopress swaging tool is about $40; a full crimper is about $150. The >> former is cheap and small; the latter, which looks like a cable cutter, >> is a lot faster and easier. No shop required. >> >> >> -- >> * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * > http://LinuxGazette.NET * >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12773|12712|2007-02-21 10:59:08|mkriley48|Re: Building an aluminum mast|WOW this is really valuable information for the avarage DIYer. forget the 100 years of history with zinc sockets and go with the new!!! ain't yachting grand! mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire worth 10X the value of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading of up to 20 tonnes. | 12774|12712|2007-02-21 18:30:03|jnikadie|Re: Building an aluminum mast|I emailed them about this today and received this reply: "Sorry no pipe in stock, have not had any surplus sent to us for a least a year, no idea when we may get any more. The longer lengths we had were a one shot deal, usually they are just shorter pieces." --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mickeyolaf" wrote: > > You can buy 6" schedule 40 aluminum pipe for about $350-400 CDN for a > 50' piece at "BC Hydro Investment Recovery Disposal Sales" @ 604-590- > 7565 in Surrey, BC. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Thanks Paul > > Nice way to convert to aluminum pipe. Was there any more > instuctions to > > figure shrowd attachments and such? Just wondering if tabs and such > could be > > welded to mast or would it weaken it to much. > > Tom > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "opuspaul" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast > using > > > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the > files > > > section. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 12775|12712|2007-02-21 20:46:38|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Hey Mike Make sure when you edit the reply it has the right auther to the email Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "mkriley48" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > WOW this is really valuable information for the avarage DIYer. > forget the 100 years of history with zinc sockets and go with the new!!! > ain't yachting grand! > mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely > wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire > worth 10X the value > of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading > of up to 20 tonnes. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12776|12712|2007-02-21 23:52:40|peter_d_wiley|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Was there a point to what you wrote, or did you just like to see yourself in print? First, there's nothing new about swaged fittings. If you don't know about them..... shrug. Keep in mind there are 2 types of swages - rolled ones which you typically see on small diameter wire, and ones where the wire is doubled back and then the swage is hydraulically squashed in precision dies. Which is what we use on wires up to 24mm dia aboard my ship. Second, I've NEVER seen a poured socket on a wire aboard a fishing vessel or oceanographic research vessel, and I've been aboard plenty in the last 30 years. Yep, they work and work well, but I've never come across one in actual use. I suspect this is a speed/ convenience thing - it's dead easy to swage a new eye on a wire. A poured socket is more useful for terminating a wire without forming an eye. For this we use wrapped terminations which can be undone & redone with hand tools. No reason why you couldn't use these for shrouds etc except for the cost - I think we paid $10K for 5 of them for 12.5mm wire recently. Finally, any place that does commercial rigging work likely has the hydraulic press, dies & swages to make up stays & shrouds. You pay them a few dollars and have it done. So if you were, in some incoherent manner, attempting to indicate that it was impossible for the average person to use this technology, sorry - wrong. You do whatever you like. I plan on using aluminiun swaged fittings. If they're good enough for my $300K oceanographic instrument package... PDW > WOW this is really valuable information for the avarage DIYer. > forget the 100 years of history with zinc sockets and go with the new!!! > ain't yachting grand! > mike > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely > wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire > worth 10X the value > of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading > of up to 20 tonnes. > | 12777|12712|2007-02-22 09:33:15|mkriley@fuse.net|Re: Building an aluminum mast|I wrongly attributed this post to tom tazmannusa and it was actually sent by "peter_d_wiley" peter_d_wiley@... sorry mike > If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely > wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire > worth 10X the value > of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading > of up to 20 tonnes. > | 12778|12778|2007-02-22 14:02:08|Tom|Aluminum mast+galv rigging|Hello All I have a few motives for rigging the way I am on the 26. I mentioned before that I have an nice aluminum mast off a merit 23 and its a few feet short compared to the plan for the 26, it is an inboard-inline rig and im keeping it the same just adding fore and aft lowers. The chainplates I have put on allready and they are on the cabin top corners, came out the right width for spreader length, Its not going to cost me anything except for the 1/4" cable to try it out whitch I orderd the other day, 250 foot roll for $37. I am using farmboy enginering here but even with bolt on cable clamps and thimbles I will still have over 6000 Lbs working load per side of the mast . I know I will loose a little light air performance but I might gain a little on the upper end, little better sheeting angle on the head sail and not have to reef as soon. I like the idea of it I can easily step the mast myself by hand and thats a big + when trailering all the time . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12779|12768|2007-02-22 16:02:10|Paul Wilson|Re: Medical insurance while you cruising, What to do?|I don't know exactly who to recommend since I have never made a claim but if you say your country of residence is a country other than the US or Canada the rates are much cheaper. I cruised for a year in the South Pacific with my home country as Thailand. They have excellent hospitals there but Singapore would also be good. I had been working there but was not an official resident and was also a non-resident of Canada. If the companies know they didn't have to medivac you back to North America they have much lower rates. The air fares are cheap...It's the hospital stays that kill you. I had my home medical center listed as Bangkok and the deal was they would medivac me in an emergency to the best medical center as long as it wasn't in North America. I imagine I would have been sent to NZ or Australia if there was a major problem. I would have no right to be sent back to North America....thus the lower rates. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: jeagle999 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:29:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Medical insurance while you cruising, What to do? Medical insurance while you cruising, what is the cost and who are the providers? JOHN ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12780|12768|2007-02-22 16:44:29|brentswain38|Re: Medical insurance while you cruising, What to do?|I once had to visit a doctor in Baja . Cost of visit ten dollars . I usually buy just enough insurance to get me past the US, after which its too cheap to worry about. A couple of doctors I know visited the hospitals in Mexico and said they are every bit as up to date as Canadian ones .Medica; tourism is becomming common , where people fly to other countries to have neccessary operations done and not have waiting lists to worry about. I met a guy who had a shark bite a piece of his elbow out at Kanton. He was medivaced to the US which cost him a fortune, just over infection worries. Fiji Samoa or New Zealand would have been wiser. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > I don't know exactly who to recommend since I have never made a claim but if you say your country of residence is a country other than the US or Canada the rates are much cheaper. I cruised for a year in the South Pacific with my home country as Thailand. They have excellent hospitals there but Singapore would also be good. I had been working there but was not an official resident and was also a non-resident of Canada. If the companies know they didn't have to medivac you back to North America they have much lower rates. The air fares are cheap...It's the hospital stays that kill you. I had my home medical center listed as Bangkok and the deal was they would medivac me in an emergency to the best medical center as long as it wasn't in North America. I imagine I would have been sent to NZ or Australia if there was a major problem. I would have no right to be sent back to North America....thus the lower rates. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jeagle999 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:29:27 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Medical insurance while you cruising, What to do? > > Medical insurance while you cruising, what is the cost and who are the > providers? > > JOHN > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12781|12712|2007-02-22 16:58:32|brentswain38|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Moitessier used bolt on cable clamps for a couple of circumnavigations in the roarinfg 40s, and three Cape horn roundings. I used them for a Tahiti and back trip.Three per end are structurally adequate, but do corrode and foul sheets. Cruise with them until you get around to changing them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Ted > The ends of the cable will be a small loop with a galvanized thimble, I > bought some stainless nicroprocess cable clips but it takes a rigging shop > to put them on, kinda defeats the purpus of being able to rig yourself so I > think I will use bolt on cable clamps instead. The mast end I have seen some > where the tangs were built large enough with a big enough hole you put the > cable end together through the hole, the turnbuckle end simply pin or bolts > in the jaw or if you buy eye to jaw turnbuckles you could asemble the cable > end through the eye and eliminate the pin or bolt. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Building an aluminum mast > > > > Tom, > > > > How are you going to make off the ends of the galvanised rigging? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 12782|12757|2007-02-22 20:08:41|brentswain38|Re: nicropress fittings|Riggers tell me that aluminium sleeves dont get as good a grip on 1X7 or 1X19 as they do on 7X7 as its too smooth. Constructioin workers say that hydraulically swaged on aluminium sleeves often let go. Stainless ones hyraulically pressed on are cheap enough and common enough.There is no advantage to going for aluminium ones if you have the option .I wouldn't trust them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > > If you're talking about a sleeve pressed in place with some anaemic set of hand dies, you > may be right. If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely > wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire worth 10X the value > of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading of up to 20 tonnes. > We've load tested them on instrumented test benches and have certificates stating that > such eyes etc have the stated safe working load (usually 1/4 of the test load). > > There is nothing wrong with a properly applied, swaged aluminium sleeve over galvanised > wire. I'm just back from a research cruise in the Southern Ocean and guess what we've > been using on our wires? Guess what every fishing boat I've ever worked on in the last 30 > years uses? > > PDW > > > Aluminum nicopress fittings are nowhere near strong enough unless you > > put it over a farm splice (mollyhogan, flemish splice) Stainless ones > > are adequate. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > > > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions > > I > > > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > > > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > > > > > > | 12783|12757|2007-02-22 21:46:46|Paul Wilson|Re: nicropress fittings|Hey Brent, Are the copper nicropress fittings OK? If so, with what kind of wire? I have seen the plain copper ones as well as the nickel plated ones and have some of each. I have always carried them and the nicropress tool for emergencies. I just arrived in New Plymouth, NZ after a 3 1/2 day sail from Opua. We are going to be living on shore for awhile before eventually heading out again. Opus IV is badly in need of a haulout and sandblast to clean her bottom after spending too many years away from a boat yard. Otherwise, everything still works! She's a great boat. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:49:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: nicropress fittings Riggers tell me that aluminium sleeves dont get as good a grip on 1X7 or 1X19 as they do on 7X7 as its too smooth. Constructioin workers say that hydraulically swaged on aluminium sleeves often let go. Stainless ones hyraulically pressed on are cheap enough and common enough.There is no advantage to going for aluminium ones if you have the option .I wouldn't trust them. Brent --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "peter_d_wiley" wrote: > > > If you're talking about a sleeve pressed in place with some anaemic set of hand dies, you > may be right. If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, you are definitely > wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the wire worth 10X the value > of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading of up to 20 tonnes. > We've load tested them on instrumented test benches and have certificates stating that > such eyes etc have the stated safe working load (usually 1/4 of the test load). > > There is nothing wrong with a properly applied, swaged aluminium sleeve over galvanised > wire. I'm just back from a research cruise in the Southern Ocean and guess what we've > been using on our wires? Guess what every fishing boat I've ever worked on in the last 30 > years uses? > > PDW > > > Aluminum nicopress fittings are nowhere near strong enough unless you > > put it over a farm splice (mollyhogan, flemish splice) Stainless ones > > are adequate. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "shaunbarrymcmillan " > > wrote: > > > > > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress fitiings > > > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore condtions > > I > > > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > > > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or bad?) > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12784|12784|2007-02-23 09:44:25|khooper_fboats|Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum|I am reading an old metalworking textbook (c. 1968) and it mentions welding aluminum with a carbon arc in a stick welder. The textbook seems to think that this practice is routine with aluminum welding. The rig looks like this: https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:K1876-1%5Cs%5Cs%5Cs This thing looks exactly like the torch mechanism in an old NuArc platemaker, if there are any old veterans of the printing industry here, doesn't it? The rig is cheap. The electrodes are expensive but if it's like the platemakers, they don't burn up all that fast. Has anybody used one of these to weld up a companionway door or suchlike small jobs? Ken| 12785|12785|2007-02-23 23:27:12|Gary|Offshore?|Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed welcome. My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments appreciated... Gary| 12786|12784|2007-02-24 04:36:17|sae140|Re: Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I am reading an old metalworking textbook (c. 1968) and it mentions > welding aluminum with a carbon arc in a stick welder. The textbook > seems to think that this practice is routine with aluminum welding. > The rig looks like this: > > https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl? Next::1:UNDEF:OR:K1876-1%5Cs%5Cs%5Cs > > This thing looks exactly like the torch mechanism in an old NuArc > platemaker, if there are any old veterans of the printing industry > here, doesn't it? > > The rig is cheap. The electrodes are expensive but if it's like the > platemakers, they don't burn up all that fast. Has anybody used one of > these to weld up a companionway door or suchlike small jobs? > > Ken > Hi Ken No personal experience, but have just pulled the folling from: http://www.arcraftplasma.com/welding/weldingdata/nonferrous.htm Aluminum and aluminum alloys can be satisfactorily welded by metal- arc, carbon-arc, and other arc welding processes. The principal advantage of using arc welding processes is that a highly concentrated heating zone is obtained with the arc. For this reason, excessive expansion and distortion of the metal are prevented. i. Shielded Carbon-Arc Welding. The shielded carbon-arc welding process can be used in joining aluminum. It requires flux and produces welds of the same appearance, soundness, and structure as those produced by either oxyacetylene or oxyhydrogen welding. Shielded carbon-arc welding is done both manually and automatically. A carbon arc is used as a source of heat while filler metal is supplied from a separate filler rod. Flux must be removed after welding; otherwise severe corrosion will result. Manual shielded carbon-arc welding is usually limited to a thickness of less than 3/8 in. (9.5 mm), accomplished by the same method used for manual carbon arc welding of other material. Joint preparation is similar to that used for gas welding. A flux covered rod is used. T-CAW certainly sounds worthy of further investigation .... Colin| 12787|12785|2007-02-24 09:13:43|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Offshore?|What southern lats are you talking about??? (US, Mexico, South Pacific, etc???) Cameron ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Offshore? Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed welcome. My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments appreciated... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12788|12785|2007-02-24 11:02:38|Carl Anderson|Re: Offshore?|Gary, My guess is that it is a little of both (the authorities want to keep a tighter check on who is there and these places want to get as much money out of the cruisers as they can). Also I would like to thank you for putting DarMi up for sale as that is what led me to investigate Brent boats. Glad that you kept the boat and go out cruising with it. If you would like to see what I'm doing so far, go check it out: http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower Carl Gary wrote: > Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight > money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern > lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites > and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and > regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed > welcome. > > My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a > welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of > most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern > destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser > anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the > effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading > on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about > isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments > appreciated... > > Gary > > | 12789|12785|2007-02-24 13:14:00|Gary|Re: Offshore?|Hello Carl... thanks for the link, excellent chronology. Evan is looking in on my boat and I have been getting some news about your rapid progress. And once under sail meandering through coastal islands on a breezy summer day ...more than worth the building effort. Particularly in your steel boat if you thunder into a log in Johnston Straight as I did ....just a loud bong and the boat continued on undamaged. I am musing about sailing from BC to the Caribbean where I have friends who urge me to do so and I am fishing for experiences (my last post) on cruising in general. The Caribbean would be of interest to learn more about cruising strategies but it would be of interest to the site members to hear of experiences of other cruisers wherever. See you this spring Carl... Gary - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > Gary, > > My guess is that it is a little of both (the authorities want to keep a > tighter check on who is there and these places want to get as much money > out of the cruisers as they can). > > Also I would like to thank you for putting DarMi up for sale as that is > what led me to investigate Brent boats. > Glad that you kept the boat and go out cruising with it. > > If you would like to see what I'm doing so far, go check it out: > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower > > Carl > > > Gary wrote: > > > Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight > > money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern > > lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites > > and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and > > regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed > > welcome. > > > > My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a > > welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of > > most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern > > destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser > > anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the > > effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading > > on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about > > isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments > > appreciated... > > > > Gary > > > > > | 12790|12784|2007-02-24 13:35:28|dbourg2002|Re: Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" > wrote: > > > > > > I am reading an old metalworking textbook (c. 1968) and it mentions > > welding aluminum with a carbon arc in a stick welder. The textbook > > seems to think that this practice is routine with aluminum welding. > > The rig looks like this: > > > > https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl? > Next::1:UNDEF:OR:K1876-1%5Cs%5Cs%5Cs > > > > This thing looks exactly like the torch mechanism in an old NuArc > > platemaker, if there are any old veterans of the printing industry > > here, doesn't it? > > > > The rig is cheap. The electrodes are expensive but if it's like the > > platemakers, they don't burn up all that fast. Has anybody used one > of > > these to weld up a companionway door or suchlike small jobs? > > > > Ken > > > > Hi Ken > > No personal experience, but have just pulled the folling from: > http://www.arcraftplasma.com/welding/weldingdata/nonferrous.htm > > Aluminum and aluminum alloys can be satisfactorily welded by metal- > arc, carbon-arc, and other arc welding processes. The principal > advantage of using arc welding processes is that a highly > concentrated heating zone is obtained with the arc. For this reason, > excessive expansion and distortion of the metal are prevented. > > > i. Shielded Carbon-Arc Welding. The shielded carbon-arc welding > process can be used in joining aluminum. It requires flux and > produces welds of the same appearance, soundness, and structure as > those produced by either oxyacetylene or oxyhydrogen welding. > Shielded carbon-arc welding is done both manually and automatically. > A carbon arc is used as a source of heat while filler metal is > supplied from a separate filler rod. Flux must be removed after > welding; otherwise severe corrosion will result. Manual shielded > carbon-arc welding is usually limited to a thickness of less than 3/8 > in. (9.5 mm), accomplished by the same method used for manual carbon > arc welding of other material. Joint preparation is similar to that > used for gas welding. A flux covered rod is used. > > > T-CAW certainly sounds worthy of further investigation .... > > Colin > I have a T-CAW Rig and the information which came with it stated the following specs: metal thichness 1/16" set 50-60amps carbon dia. 1/4" 1/8" set 70-80amps carbon dia. 5/16" 1/4" set 90-100 amps carbon dia. 3/8" Apparently, you should preheat the joint by running the arced carbons up and down the joint several times before welding. Use 1/8" dia, aluminum filler rod.Carbons are set approximately 1/16" apart for the arc. Weld by using forehand welding.The carbons are both bevelled like a pencil but with less bevel(sorry I can't be more exact) Hope this helps, I haven't tried it out myself as the rig was a freebie with the welder I bought but it does look fairly straightforward. Don| 12791|12791|2007-02-25 17:27:41|Doug Derbes|AlumaWeld Process|Is it possible to use the AlumaWeld product to weld an aluminum boat and have the weld integrity for a safe boat?| 12792|12785|2007-03-01 21:28:07|jnikadie|Re: Offshore?|Carl, The latest update on your website is great (although troubling ... I believe your progress has now overtaken mine). The cross-break on the door and small hatches really works (the photo of the small hatch on the boat just looks "right"). How are you handling the edges of the door? I see that you're welding the corners on the small hatches and welding on the front and back of the curved larger hatches, but the shape of the door suggests you'll be welding all the way around ... ? And, how are you doing the aluminum welding? Thanks, Julian. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > ... > If you would like to see what I'm doing so far, go check it out: > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower > ... > Carl | 12793|12793|2007-03-01 22:02:59|Tom|BS26 progress|Hello All I recieved the last of the metal I needed yesterday . Needed to add stiffners to the cabin top and sides, the 12gage was a little to flimsy without them. I baught a 4'x8'x 3/16" aluminum sheet to make all the hatches and it was $2.16 a pound, cheaper than I thought it would be considering there paying about $1.40 for aluminum cans now. So far I have spent about $3000 in materials to build the completed hull not including any balast or sandblasting, That was buying everything new except the odds and ends of stainless that I bought from scrap yards. If things go right I should be able to sail it in a few months with no interior or Im hoping anyway. Any new 26's being built ? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12794|12794|2007-03-02 15:55:10|khooper_fboats|Cheap|Looks like Harbor Freight has 4 1/2" angle grinders for $9.99 Also 2-ton comealongs for $10.99 Next two days only I've had one of those grinders for a couple years and it's not too bad. Haven't done much metal but I have cut a metric buttload of tile with it. It came with extra brushes but haven't needed them...| 12795|12757|2007-03-02 17:33:42|brentswain38|Re: nicropress fittings|Copper works on stainless wire if it isn't 1X19 or 1X7 which is too smooth for it to bite. I'd still do the flemish eye before using a copper sleeve. Copper or nickel coated copper wil eat galvanized rigging with electrolysis in no time.Don't use them on Galvanized wire . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > Hey Brent, > > Are the copper nicropress fittings OK? If so, with what kind of wire? I have seen the plain copper ones as well as the nickel plated ones and have some of each. I have always carried them and the nicropress tool for emergencies. > > I just arrived in New Plymouth, NZ after a 3 1/2 day sail from Opua. We are going to be living on shore for awhile before eventually heading out again. Opus IV is badly in need of a haulout and sandblast to clean her bottom after spending too many years away from a boat yard. Otherwise, everything still works! She's a great boat. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 10:49:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: nicropress fittings > > Riggers tell me that aluminium sleeves dont get as good a grip on 1X7 > or 1X19 as they do on 7X7 as its too smooth. Constructioin workers say > that hydraulically swaged on aluminium sleeves often let go. Stainless > ones hyraulically pressed on are cheap enough and common enough.There > is no advantage to going for aluminium ones if you have the option .I > wouldn't trust them. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "peter_d_wiley" > wrote: > > > > > > If you're talking about a sleeve pressed in place with some anaemic > set of hand dies, you > > may be right. If you're talking about a hydraulically swaged sleeve, > you are definitely > > wrong. We do this all the time, with equipment on the end of the > wire worth 10X the value > > of your yacht. We use them for trawl warps on winches with a loading > of up to 20 tonnes. > > We've load tested them on instrumented test benches and have > certificates stating that > > such eyes etc have the stated safe working load (usually 1/4 of the > test load). > > > > There is nothing wrong with a properly applied, swaged aluminium > sleeve over galvanised > > wire. I'm just back from a research cruise in the Southern Ocean and > guess what we've > > been using on our wires? Guess what every fishing boat I've ever > worked on in the last 30 > > years uses? > > > > PDW > > > > > Aluminum nicopress fittings are nowhere near strong enough unless you > > > put it over a farm splice (mollyhogan, flemish splice) Stainless ones > > > are adequate. > > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@ yahoogroups. com, "shaunbarrymcmillan " > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am not certain but I have read in the past that nicropress > fitiings > > > > are not the strongest ways to rig a boat--in heavy of-shore > condtions > > > I > > > > am not certain that they would be as strong as other better known > > > > methods, but, does anyone have more concise information (good or > bad?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12796|12785|2007-03-02 20:49:52|Claude|Re: Offshore?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Carl Anderson wrote: > > If you would like to see what I'm doing so far, go check it out: > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower > > Carl > Hello Carl. Congratulation on your progess. What you are doing, (building your boat on Vancouver Island with the help of Evan Shaler) is exactely what I hope to be doing soon. I hope that someone like Evan will be available to help out. I also hope that it is not too hard to find a place to build the boat. Claude| 12797|12785|2007-03-02 22:31:36|Carl Anderson|Re: Offshore?|Julian, Yes the door will be welded all around (mostly) except for three sides that are bent. The top is curved to follow the top of the pilothouse & will have a piece welded on there. It looks like I will be having someone TIG the aluminum stuff. Lots of progress today as the crane came and lifted the boat. Evan got the starboard keel in place & tacked as well. Carl jnikadie wrote: > > Carl, > > The latest update on your website is great (although troubling ... I > believe your progress has now overtaken mine). > > The cross-break on the door and small hatches really works (the photo > of the small hatch on the boat just looks "right"). > > How are you handling the edges of the door? I see that you're welding > the corners on the small hatches and welding on the front and back of > the curved larger hatches, but the shape of the door suggests you'll > be welding all the way around ... ? > > And, how are you doing the aluminum welding? > > Thanks, > Julian. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Carl Anderson wrote: > > > > ... > > If you would like to see what I'm doing so far, go check it out: > > http://virtual.moab.ut.us/moonflower > > > ... > > > Carl > > | 12798|12798|2007-03-03 00:18:27|shaunbarrymcmillan|wire---splicing|I tried some galvy wire splicing about 5 years ago using Brion Toss' book The Rigger's Apprentice. Problem was the wire was too small to really splice well (it was 1/4 inch). it would not have suited my Folkboat in any case. But bigger sized wire would work better (3/8"). Any how, before coming on the site tonight I picked up the latest Wooden Boat Magazine because it had an article on wire splicing. I really think that if you simplified Toss' splice it would be much easier. You could destructive test splices as they became more consistent. As I shop for my second boat, hopefully traditional wood, steel, or aluminium, or even an old classic plastic---wire splicing is still one thing that I would really like to do. One of those ancient skills going with time. Anyway enough lurking--I'm off to increase my boat kitty. But splicing is still a prudent way to rig if you can get consistent. From what I hear it takes one to two months of thoughtful practice. Not bad in our world of immiediate gratification. Fair Winds and Fair Tides Shaun McMillan| 12799|12785|2007-03-03 02:22:27|Jonathan Stevens|Re: Offshore?|Carl, You tell a really good story with your website and pictures. I always enjoy working with people who really know what they are doing; looks like you found someone just like that in Evan. I'm looking forward to your next instalment. Jonathan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12800|12785|2007-03-03 04:13:39|jeagle999|Re: Offshore?|Gary I thought I take a stab at "Offshore" since your question about "Southern lats" seems not to be getting addressed. I am not a cruiser, but I study a wee bit of economics and so you being a little tight fisted sailor it might help because I lean in the same direction! 1)The one of the most important lessons in economics is not supply and demand which everybody thinks but it is " There are always trade offs" in more economic terms there are COSTS and BENEFITS to everything that you do! Now the problem is the human mind it can only think of/ with 3 or 4 "ideas" at a time. This why we get fooled and we all get fooled. So the only why around this problem is to make a list PROs / CONs or COSTs / BENEFITs . Note you must include all the variables you can think of over a month or two even if you do not think they apply. I will now help you to start off your list: Cons: Bugs, heat, sun, language Pros: Cheap Booze, Cheap smokes, Cheap food, Cheap women As you can you can see if you drink very little like me it is not really a benefit to you but to some sailors very important. The same with smokes I do not smoke so no benefit as for cheap women while wish thinking or very bad for your health. Now when I say heat you will not believe me, but I am in Thailand now and you know the saying it so hot you can fry an egg, while come see for yourself. My room and board in Thailand is 3500BHT which is about $130 dollars Canadian. I was in Guatemala about 4 years ago meet many a sailor who parked his/her boat in the marina for the rain season and traveled to the western region! In Guatemala I was paying 100 US a week for room, board, 4 hours of Spanish lessons by University Grad each day and 2 hours of Salsa dancing instruction each day. Beer in Thailand 1 quart 35BHT $1.20CAD Beer in China 1 quart 3 RMB $0.55CAD But rum in the Caribbean and whisky in Thailand very cheap The government web site will tell which countries you need a vista but most countries allow 30, 60, or even 90 without a visa for Canadian passport most countries it is a small cost or every 30 days you sail next door get a stamp and sail back again if you like or spend 30 days "here" and 30 days "there"! In Central America I do not remember any visa being expense and eat out was cheap and good in many places. Yes there is danger but a lot depends on you but than shit does happen You may be paying a higher price than you think for the serfdom of Canada. John PS. My bug net for my bed is my most treasured item PS. For the tight fisted, a little contemplation, another important lesson in economics is "Exchange creates wealth" This means that wealth is created in your mind because you feel better off. It is very hard to eat money and if you burn it it gives little heat. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight > money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern > lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites > and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and > regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed > welcome. > > My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a > welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of > most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern > destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser > anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the > effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading > on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about > isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments > appreciated... > > Gary > | 12801|12785|2007-03-03 15:07:42|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Offshore?|John, loved the economics lesson. Paul L ----- Original Message ----- From: jeagle999 Date: Saturday, March 3, 2007 1:09 am Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Offshore? > > > > > Gary > > I thought I take a stab at "Offshore" since your question > about "Southern lats" seems not to be getting addressed. I am not > a > cruiser, but I study a wee bit of economics and so you being a > little tight > fisted sailor it might help because I lean in the same direction! > > 1)The one of the most important lessons in economics is not supply > and > demand which everybody thinks but it is " There are always trade > offs" > in more economic terms there are COSTS and BENEFITS to everything > > that you do! > > Now the problem is the human mind it can only think of/ with 3 or > 4 "ideas" at a time. This why we get fooled and we all get fooled. > So > the only why around this problem is to make a list PROs / CONs > or > COSTs / BENEFITs . Note you must include all the variables you can > think of over a month or two even if you do not think they apply. > > > > I will now help you to start off your list: > > Cons: Bugs, heat, sun, language > > Pros: Cheap Booze, Cheap smokes, Cheap food, Cheap women > > > As you can you can see if you drink very little like me it is not > really a > benefit to you but to some sailors very important. The same with > smokes I do not smoke so no benefit as for cheap women while wish > thinking or very bad for your health. Now when I say heat you > will not > believe me, but I am in Thailand now and you know the saying it so > hot > you can fry an egg, while come see for yourself. My room and > board in > Thailand is 3500BHT which is about $130 dollars Canadian. I was in > Guatemala about 4 years ago meet many a sailor who parked his/her > boat in the marina for the rain season and traveled to the western > region! In Guatemala I was paying 100 US a week for room, board, > 4 > hours of Spanish lessons by University Grad each day and 2 hours > of > Salsa dancing instruction each day. > > Beer in Thailand 1 quart 35BHT $1.20CAD > Beer in China 1 quart 3 RMB $0.55CAD > > But rum in the Caribbean and whisky in Thailand very cheap > > > The government web site will tell which countries you need a vista > but > most countries allow 30, 60, or even 90 without a visa for > Canadian > passport most countries it is a small cost or every 30 days you > sail next > door get a stamp and sail back again if you like or spend 30 days > "here" > and 30 days "there"! In Central America I do not remember any visa > being expense and eat out was cheap and good in many places. Yes > there is danger but a lot depends on you but than shit does happen > > > You may be paying a higher price than you think for the serfdom of > Canada. > > > John > > PS. My bug net for my bed is my most treasured item > > > PS. For the tight fisted, a little contemplation, another > important lesson > in economics is "Exchange creates wealth" This means that wealth > is > created in your mind because you feel better off. It is very > hard to eat > money and if you burn it it gives little heat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" > wrote: > > > > Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight > > money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled > southern > > lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising > sites > > and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom > and > > regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are > indeed > > welcome. > > > > My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been > a > > welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence > of > > most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern > > destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser > > anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth > the > > effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy > reading > > on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing > about > > isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments > > appreciated... > > > > Gary > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -------------------- > ~--> > Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/hOt0.A/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -~-> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12802|12785|2007-03-03 18:03:14|Gary|Re: Offshore?|Nice post John... thanks. My take on matters is that no matter where you go and your capacity whether flush or frugal there will be a similar smorg of company present for one to fit in with. I agree with your observances about "perception" as a matter of the mind. I biked through east half of Cuba 4 yrs ago. People I met from peasant villages to cities were calm, smiling and exuded an air of contentment absent from populations trundling along the city streets of North America. It was quite an experience and laid to rest the myth of materialism as the route to self worth. Gary -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeagle999" wrote: > > > > > > Gary > > I thought I take a stab at "Offshore" since your question > about "Southern lats" seems not to be getting addressed. I am not a > cruiser, but I study a wee bit of economics and so you being a little tight > fisted sailor it might help because I lean in the same direction! > > 1)The one of the most important lessons in economics is not supply and > demand which everybody thinks but it is " There are always trade offs" > in more economic terms there are COSTS and BENEFITS to everything > that you do! > > Now the problem is the human mind it can only think of/ with 3 or > 4 "ideas" at a time. This why we get fooled and we all get fooled. So > the only why around this problem is to make a list PROs / CONs or > COSTs / BENEFITs . Note you must include all the variables you can > think of over a month or two even if you do not think they apply. > > > I will now help you to start off your list: > > Cons: Bugs, heat, sun, language > > Pros: Cheap Booze, Cheap smokes, Cheap food, Cheap women > > > As you can you can see if you drink very little like me it is not really a > benefit to you but to some sailors very important. The same with > smokes I do not smoke so no benefit as for cheap women while wish > thinking or very bad for your health. Now when I say heat you will not > believe me, but I am in Thailand now and you know the saying it so hot > you can fry an egg, while come see for yourself. My room and board in > Thailand is 3500BHT which is about $130 dollars Canadian. I was in > Guatemala about 4 years ago meet many a sailor who parked his/her > boat in the marina for the rain season and traveled to the western > region! In Guatemala I was paying 100 US a week for room, board, 4 > hours of Spanish lessons by University Grad each day and 2 hours of > Salsa dancing instruction each day. > > Beer in Thailand 1 quart 35BHT $1.20CAD > Beer in China 1 quart 3 RMB $0.55CAD > > But rum in the Caribbean and whisky in Thailand very cheap > > > The government web site will tell which countries you need a vista but > most countries allow 30, 60, or even 90 without a visa for Canadian > passport most countries it is a small cost or every 30 days you sail next > door get a stamp and sail back again if you like or spend 30 days "here" > and 30 days "there"! In Central America I do not remember any visa > being expense and eat out was cheap and good in many places. Yes > there is danger but a lot depends on you but than shit does happen > > > You may be paying a higher price than you think for the serfdom of > Canada. > > > John > > PS. My bug net for my bed is my most treasured item > > > PS. For the tight fisted, a little contemplation, another important lesson > in economics is "Exchange creates wealth" This means that wealth is > created in your mind because you feel better off. It is very hard to eat > money and if you burn it it gives little heat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" > wrote: > > > > Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight > > money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern > > lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites > > and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and > > regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed > > welcome. > > > > My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a > > welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of > > most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern > > destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser > > anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the > > effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading > > on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about > > isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments > > appreciated... > > > > Gary > > > | 12803|12798|2007-03-04 01:59:41|John Jones|Re: wire---splicing|Take some time to check out your local "wire" utility company and ask where you can locate the pre-formed spiral ends they use on their support wires. Ma Bell and Cable T.V. uses a 1/4" galvinized cable "stran" to support the Telephone or CATV Equipment and wires and these ends are very strong and easy to apply to said 1/4" wires and makes for a real fast and efficiant backup for emergency situations. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" < shaunbarrymcmillan@...> wrote: > > I tried some galvy wire splicing about 5 years ago using Brion Toss' > book The Rigger's Apprentice. Problem was the wire was too small to > really splice well (it was 1/4 inch). it would not have suited my > Folkboat in any case. But bigger sized wire would work better (3/8"). > Any how, before coming on the site tonight I picked up the latest > Wooden Boat Magazine because it had an article on wire splicing. I > really think that if you simplified Toss' splice it would be much > easier. You could destructive test splices as they became more > consistent. As I shop for my second boat, hopefully traditional wood, > steel, or aluminium, or even an old classic plastic---wire splicing is > still one thing that I would really like to do. One of those ancient > skills going with time. Anyway enough lurking--I'm off to increase my > boat kitty. But splicing is still a prudent way to rig if you can get > consistent. From what I hear it takes one to two months of thoughtful > practice. Not bad in our world of immiediate gratification. Fair Winds > and Fair Tides Shaun McMillan > | 12804|12804|2007-03-06 12:07:51|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Homemade welders|Not related to these guys at all, but thought the links might be of interest: This gentleman sells plans for an arc welder (http://www.dansworkshop.com/Homebuilt%20arc%20welder.shtml) made from used microwave transformers and similar "appliance" parts that you can find cheap or free. His web site is quite detailed and you may be able to build from what you find there... if not, he sells a detailed plan/instruction set for a very reasonable fee. Next is a detailed web page for building a TIG welder (http://myweb.cableone.net/rschell/TIG.htm). Lots of information and pictures. Bruce -- Bruce Dillahunty bdillahu@... http://www.craftacraft.com| 12805|12785|2007-03-07 14:34:14|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Offshore?|SE Asia remains the top spot from all the cruisers we know over the years. Low prices, almost zero officialdom. I have never had any official come aboard - or even alongside - in any port of call in SE Asia. You take your paperwork in to their office, act friendly, bring a typed letter of explanation if you have made some serious mistake along the way, and 99.999% of the time you are on your way in a few minutes. The weather is great, scenery fantastic, couldn't hope for friendlier people. You can keep your boat in Malaysia duty free forever. The most serious problem we have heard of was some minor corruption in Thailand. Some boats paid as much as $20 in bribes. The officials were removed. Tonga would be my second choice, but it has been some years since we were there. The advantage of SE Asia is that it is simple to renew your visa. In most places in the S. Pacific you cannot do this. You must move on once your time is up, and once you sail downwind, it is very difficult to return. Greg www.origamimagic.com _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Offshore? Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed welcome. My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments appreciated... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12806|12791|2007-03-07 14:52:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: AlumaWeld Process|Here is an interesting way to weld alloy, especially to assemble large plates for origami. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding Greg www.origamimagic.com _____ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Derbes Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] AlumaWeld Process Is it possible to use the AlumaWeld product to weld an aluminum boat and have the weld integrity for a safe boat? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12807|12712|2007-03-07 20:19:14|Tom|Re: Building an aluminum mast|Using the article that Paul posted The BS26 would need 3.5"OD x .25 wall aluminum tube for the mast, 3Lbs a foot. My question is how can that be converted to a steel tubing to get the same strength? Looking at the steel tubing charts a 3" OD x .120 wall tube is 3.76 Lbs a foot, the weight of that would be doable. Going to a sch 40 pipe 2-1/2" or 3" ID would be way to heavy. Just trying to figure out if there is something cheap and easy to build out of steel that could be bought from any steel supplyer. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "opuspaul" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Building an aluminum mast > Hello all, > > I have now posted the article on building your own aluminum mast using > standard aluminum pipe on the Origamiboats2 group site in the files > section. > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12808|12808|2007-03-07 20:34:27|Tom|scrap prices|Hello All I went to the scrap metal yard today to find some more stainless and the price has doubled in the last year they are charging $2.00 a pound for stainless and a $1.50 for aluminum, seems to me a tad high, Im wondering if that just here in California or everywhere? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12809|12793|2007-03-07 21:51:09|Tom|BS26 progress|Hello all Last weekend I managed to get all the cabin stringers and window trim in, What I did on the window openings was bend a 1"x 3/16" flat strip around the opening on the inside then welded the all around from outside, took a while one inch at a time. originaly I was going to bolt the windows on the outside but the wife wants me to flush mount them in the frames. after thinking about it she is right it would look a lot cleaner that way,Ohh well just adds a day or two to the progect. I did post a picture of the inside cabin in origamiboats2 if you want to see how I stiffened it up, I didnt run as much camber on the roof that others have so it wasnt as stiff eather, she feels rock solid now. I am not going to line the cabin with wood its going to stay steel Im going to try the ceramic beads in the paint for insulation and see how well it works couple coats inside and topside. A friend of mine at the paint store gave me a gallon of phosphoric acid (rust converter) to spray along the stringers before I sandblast and paint the inside, he said at least I will have killed the rust under the edges that sandblasting cant get, seemed like a good idea to me anyone have any cons to doing this? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12810|12808|2007-03-08 04:11:14|sae140|Re: scrap prices|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello All > I went to the scrap metal yard today to find some more stainless and the price has doubled in the last year they are charging $2.00 a pound for stainless and a $1.50 for aluminum, seems to me a tad high, Im wondering if that just here in California or everywhere? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Same in Britain. Lead is currently £600 ($1150)/ton. Copper is so expensive that thieves have been pinching signalling cable from alongside railway tracks. Do you want your warships back ? Colin| 12811|12798|2007-03-08 14:50:42|brentswain38|Re: wire---splicing|A friend had those splices pull out off the oregon coast a bit with every tug. They will take only a steady pull but not a sea swell. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > > Take some time to check out your local "wire" utility company and ask where > you can locate the pre-formed spiral ends they use on their support wires. > Ma Bell and Cable T.V. uses a 1/4" galvinized cable "stran" to support the > Telephone or CATV Equipment and wires and these ends are very strong and > easy to apply to said 1/4" wires and makes for a real fast and efficiant backup > for emergency situations. > John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" < > shaunbarrymcmillan@> wrote: > > > > I tried some galvy wire splicing about 5 years ago using Brion Toss' > > book The Rigger's Apprentice. Problem was the wire was too small to > > really splice well (it was 1/4 inch). it would not have suited my > > Folkboat in any case. But bigger sized wire would work better (3/8"). > > Any how, before coming on the site tonight I picked up the latest > > Wooden Boat Magazine because it had an article on wire splicing. I > > really think that if you simplified Toss' splice it would be much > > easier. You could destructive test splices as they became more > > consistent. As I shop for my second boat, hopefully traditional wood, > > steel, or aluminium, or even an old classic plastic---wire splicing is > > still one thing that I would really like to do. One of those ancient > > skills going with time. Anyway enough lurking--I'm off to increase my > > boat kitty. But splicing is still a prudent way to rig if you can get > > consistent. From what I hear it takes one to two months of thoughtful > > practice. Not bad in our world of immiediate gratification. Fair Winds > > and Fair Tides Shaun McMillan > > > | 12812|12812|2007-03-08 16:40:08|Cid da Silva|off topic - Epoxy Tar|I want to build a quick cellar by burying a 40' container. I know some of the boat builders have used Epoxy Tar to seal their hulls with it. Was wondering if it would protect a buried 40' container from rusting. Not looking for perfection but a quick and easy way to have a cool room without using an air conditioner. Sorry for geting off topic, my boat still is a dream. You can answer off line if you so desire. Thanks cheers cid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12813|12808|2007-03-08 21:53:25|Carl Anderson|Re: scrap prices|Tom, China has been buying most of the "scrap" metal from the world and has run the prices up quite a bit doing so. The "scrap" metal yard that I deal with in Utah sends all their metal to China (and they are the largest non-ferrous "scrap" metal dealer in the western US). The prices that you quoted are the same as Utah and a little less than what they get on Vancouver Island. Carl Tom wrote: > > > Hello All > I went to the scrap metal yard today to find some more stainless and the > price has doubled in the last year they are charging $2.00 a pound for > stainless and a $1.50 for aluminum, seems to me a tad high, Im wondering > if that just here in California or everywhere? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12814|12784|2007-03-09 20:45:53|Mike|Re: Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum|Ken: (lol)The picture rings a very old bell. When working for my father's engineering firm, I would flip through his library during moments of boredom(usually, tax time - no offense Jim). If I remember correctly, the picture is of a manual sub-arc delivery system(stinger/gun/etc.). I would think that a contemporary system would be cheaper & of greater availability. My father passed away recently & I have "inherited" his old texts. I'll see what I can find. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > I am reading an old metalworking textbook (c. 1968) and it mentions > welding aluminum with a carbon arc in a stick welder. The textbook > seems to think that this practice is routine with aluminum welding. > The rig looks like this: > > https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl? Next::1:UNDEF:OR:K1876-1%5Cs%5Cs%5Cs > > This thing looks exactly like the torch mechanism in an old NuArc > platemaker, if there are any old veterans of the printing industry > here, doesn't it? > > The rig is cheap. The electrodes are expensive but if it's like the > platemakers, they don't burn up all that fast. Has anybody used one of > these to weld up a companionway door or suchlike small jobs? > > Ken > | 12815|12815|2007-03-10 15:53:38|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Origami Steel Boatbuilding|Does any member of this forum know if the handbook "Origami Steel Boatbuilding" by Brent Swain is still available? I tried contacting Mr. Swain at brentswain38@... but the e-mail message bounced as undeliverable.| 12816|12816|2007-03-10 15:53:52|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Origami Metal Boatbuilding|Excuse me! The actual title is "Origami Metal Boatbuilding" by Brent Swain. I found it available at the following source: http://www.nauticalmind.com/customer/Origami-Metal-Boatbuilding-A- Heretic-s-Guide-pr-66137.html| 12817|12817|2007-03-10 17:54:06|jnikadie|BUYBACK OF CANADA/NDI AGREEMENT|http://www.charts.gc.ca/pub/en/ddd/QA2007-02-19-1547.asp| 12818|12815|2007-03-10 19:20:22|J Fisher|Re: Origami Steel Boatbuilding|Yes, Brents book is available. Just send the $$ ($20 if I remember correctly) to the address for the plans and you will get it in a couple of weeks. John -------Original Message------- From: Greg & Christine Vassilakos Date: 3/10/2007 1:53:41 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Steel Boatbuilding Does any member of this forum know if the handbook "Origami Steel Boatbuilding" by Brent Swain is still available? I tried contacting Mr. Swain at brentswain38@... but the e-mail message bounced as undeliverable. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12819|12815|2007-03-10 20:05:43|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Re: Origami Steel Boatbuilding|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Yes, Brents book is available. Just send the $$ ($20 if I remember > correctly) to the address for the plans and you will get it in a couple of > weeks. > > John > Thank you! The ordering information that I found in the "Files" section of this discussion forum is as follows: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send US$20 plus US$5 for postage to the above address. Canadian orders are the same amounts but in CDN funds. International orders are $20 USD and $10 USD shipping. Brent's e-mail address is: brentswain38@... Brent lives on board with no computer connection, so keep in mind that replies can some times take longer, depending on his location at the time (he travels up and down the BC coast).| 12820|12785|2007-03-10 20:05:47|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Re: Offshore?|I am so disappointed after reading these posts. I had images in my mind of bare breasted maidens swimming out to my boat at my first south seas port. Instead, the focus of these posts seems to be how to deal with petty officialdom and find cheap beer. I guess I am a century or two too late. Perhaps I should just stay home and wait for the latest remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty" on HBO.| 12821|12784|2007-03-10 20:09:17|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum|If all you want to weld is some hatch covers, just get someone to do it with Tig or Mig. Tig will be prettier, but takes a little longer. For something like a hatch cover you are probably talking less than a half hour of welding time. You'll spend more time and a money trying learn how to weld aluminum than it will cost to get it done. Aluminum is very different that welding steel. With steel it get red hot, than bright red, then white hot and it starts to sag away. With aluminum it's welding okay, the puddle gets a little large, and suddenly its GONE and you have a hole. A guy once asked if he could use my welder to weld up some hunting stands in aluminum. He said he wanted learn how to do it on his own. I said okay and he played some with scrap and then proceeded to blow a big hole in his part. He asked me if I though I could fix it. I said I would give it a try and put on the helmet. He turned around to get a second helmet and when he turned back the hole was gone. He asked what I had done. I told him the secret to filling a hole in aluminum is to be really quick! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum I am reading an old metalworking textbook (c. 1968) and it mentions welding aluminum with a carbon arc in a stick welder. The textbook seems to think that this practice is routine with aluminum welding. The rig looks like this: https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:K1876-1%5Cs%5Cs%5Cs This thing looks exactly like the torch mechanism in an old NuArc platemaker, if there are any old veterans of the printing industry here, doesn't it? The rig is cheap. The electrodes are expensive but if it's like the platemakers, they don't burn up all that fast. Has anybody used one of these to weld up a companionway door or suchlike small jobs? Ken | 12822|12784|2007-03-10 20:09:18|Tom|Re: Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum|Hello Ken I havnt used one myself but I bet it would be a lot harder to master than you think, For the DIY'er that doesnt have spool gun I would have to say it would be a lot easyer to buy aluminum stick welding rods they work ok for flat welding, out of position they get a bit tricky. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "khooper_fboats" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Carbon Arc Welding Aluminum > > I am reading an old metalworking textbook (c. 1968) and it mentions > welding aluminum with a carbon arc in a stick welder. The textbook > seems to think that this practice is routine with aluminum welding. > The rig looks like this: > > https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:K1876-1%5Cs%5Cs%5Cs > > This thing looks exactly like the torch mechanism in an old NuArc > platemaker, if there are any old veterans of the printing industry > here, doesn't it? > > The rig is cheap. The electrodes are expensive but if it's like the > platemakers, they don't burn up all that fast. Has anybody used one of > these to weld up a companionway door or suchlike small jobs? > > Ken > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups - Join or create groups, clubs, forums & communities. > Links > > > > | 12823|12785|2007-03-10 20:11:31|Paul Wilson|Re: Offshore?|If you are speaking about working along the way.... Having spent the last 10 years in the south pacific I would say if you want to make money while cruising, forget it. The only people you could possibly make money from are fellow cruisers and they are too cheap to make it worth your while. I could have had no end of work fixing electronics for cruisers since that is what I do, but usually the payback would be a free dinner or a beer. The French countries are taken over by the French Expats on two year rotations so you can forget about them since the cost of living is so high. I would live cheap in Canada, the States or wherever, save your money and then go with the idea of not working along the way. It's not like it used to be. The easiest way to get kicked out of Fiji is to start working. I heard of someone being threatened to be kicked out for volunteering to show school kids how to make their own dolls and toys so they had something for home. They claimed it was taking a job from a Fijian...not true but they don't think right about these things. Doctors couldn't even volunteer in hospitals even though they are sorely needed. Tonga, although much slacker with officialdom, has its own Expat community struggling to make a living and if you go in and try to get work they will turn you in if you haven't dropped through all the hoops. Bottom line is, the islands are great, you can live cheap (but not too cheap), have a great time, but don't expect ot make any money along the way. I have found that there all types out cruising...rich and poor. I have seen people trying to cruise on unrealistc budgets and it gives all cruisers a bad name. It's important to be realistic and go with enough money so you don't become a burden to the local people. I have seen cruisers park themselves in front of a village and eat there food for months and give nothing in return. The villagers are poor enough as it is. As to other aspects of officialdom, my experience is if you follow the rules, the officials are fine. I have never had a problem in the south pacific other than Hawaii but thats too long of a story. I just won't go back there. I rambled a bit, sorry if I sound too negative, its great down there so go..... Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:26:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Offshore? Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed welcome. My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments appreciated. .. Gary ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12824|12824|2007-03-10 20:27:44|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Latitude 38: 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via|I thought I should share a couple of items from Latitude 38 that led me to this discussion forum. The first is a short blurb regarding the 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via, which was designed by Mr. Swain. The blurb includes a photo of Bella Via aground at San Blas, Mexico: http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2007/0307/Mar09/Mar9.html#ancho r1085433 The second is an article that ran regarding the builders of Bella Via. It's the second item at the following webpage: http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes05-05.html The second article includes the following about Mr. Swain: "Swain is a real character who more people in the sailing world ought to know about," adds Monica. "He's the kind of guy who would think nothing of leaving B.C. in September - single-handed, of course - to spend the winter in Tonga and then sail home in the spring. He's an inventor who lives so closely off the land that I bet he doesn't spend more than $200 a month. Yet about 150 of his designs have been launched in the last 25 years, and our current boat is Jack's further development of Brent's original origami concept."| 12825|12785|2007-03-11 09:57:13|Gary|Re: Offshore?|Greg... lots of bare brested maidens on BC islands summer months. Hornby Island would be a good start. Also, I think negative events because they are "newsworthy" and perhaps exceptions to the norm get reported on cruisers forums giving a general sense of negativity. I have since heard from others that voyaging is well worth the while and the unpleasant is overstated. Gary In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Greg & Christine Vassilakos" wrote: > > I am so disappointed after reading these posts. I had images in my > mind of bare breasted maidens swimming out to my boat at my first south > seas port. Instead, the focus of these posts seems to be how to deal > with petty officialdom and find cheap beer. I guess I am a century or > two too late. Perhaps I should just stay home and wait for the latest > remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty" on HBO. > | 12826|12824|2007-03-11 13:32:14|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Latitude 38: 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via|No, that's Steve on Bu'kwiis. Always a camera around when you don't want one! ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg & Christine Vassilakos Date: Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:27 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Latitude 38: 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via > I thought I should share a couple of items from Latitude 38 that > led > me to this discussion forum. > > The first is a short blurb regarding the 44-ft junk ketch Bella > Via, > which was designed by Mr. Swain. The blurb includes a photo of > Bella > Via aground at San Blas, Mexico: > > http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2007/0307/Mar09/Mar9.html#ancho > r1085433 > > The second is an article that ran regarding the builders of Bella > Via. It's the second item at the following webpage: > > http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes05-05.html > > The second article includes the following about Mr. Swain: > > "Swain is a real character who more people in the sailing world > ought > to know about," adds Monica. "He's the kind of guy who would think > nothing of leaving B.C. in September - single-handed, of course - > to > spend the winter in Tonga and then sail home in the spring. He's an > inventor who lives so closely off the land that I bet he doesn't > spend more than $200 a month. Yet about 150 of his designs have > been > launched in the last 25 years, and our current boat is Jack's > further > development of Brent's original origami concept." > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -------------------- > ~--> > Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email > design.http://us.click.yahoo.com/kOt0.A/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ~-> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12827|12824|2007-03-11 19:59:02|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Re: Latitude 38: 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via|Thank you! There is a nice webpage on Bu'kwiis: http://www.ucolick.org/~de/boat/Bukwiis/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > No, that's Steve on Bu'kwiis. Always a camera around when you don't want one! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg & Christine Vassilakos > Date: Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:27 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Latitude 38: 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via > > > I thought I should share a couple of items from Latitude 38 that > > led > > me to this discussion forum. > > > > The first is a short blurb regarding the 44-ft junk ketch Bella > > Via, > > which was designed by Mr. Swain. The blurb includes a photo of > > Bella > > Via aground at San Blas, Mexico: > > > > http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2007/0307/Mar09/Mar9.html#ancho > > r1085433 > > > > The second is an article that ran regarding the builders of Bella > > Via. It's the second item at the following webpage: > > > > http://www.latitude38.com/changes/Changes05-05.html > > > > The second article includes the following about Mr. Swain: > > > > "Swain is a real character who more people in the sailing world > > ought > > to know about," adds Monica. "He's the kind of guy who would think > > nothing of leaving B.C. in September - single-handed, of course - > > to > > spend the winter in Tonga and then sail home in the spring. He's an > > inventor who lives so closely off the land that I bet he doesn't > > spend more than $200 a month. Yet about 150 of his designs have > > been > > launched in the last 25 years, and our current boat is Jack's > > further > > development of Brent's original origami concept." > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------- - > > ~--> > > Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email > > design.http://us.click.yahoo.com/kOt0.A/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > > ~-> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 12828|12785|2007-03-13 20:51:57|mickeyolaf|Re: Offshore?|Where in the world can u sail where there are no pirates, malaria, and thieving officials? Where the water is clean and the harbors are many and sometimes deserted and where there is still wilderness. Where prices are low and there are still a few fish. It's British Columbia. Now the girls here won't be swimming out to your boat with the twins in full view but if u buy BC women enough beer and say the right words u can get their tops off. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Greg & Christine Vassilakos" wrote: > > I am so disappointed after reading these posts. I had images in my > mind of bare breasted maidens swimming out to my boat at my first south > seas port. Instead, the focus of these posts seems to be how to deal > with petty officialdom and find cheap beer. I guess I am a century or > two too late. Perhaps I should just stay home and wait for the latest > remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty" on HBO. > | 12829|12785|2007-03-14 14:51:54|Bill Jaine|Intercoastal waterway|Hi all, what in peoples opinion is the best book for the Intercoastal waterway Thanks Bill| 12830|12785|2007-03-14 15:28:35|Mike lowe|Re: Intercoastal waterway|I like the Intracoastal Waterway Facilities Guide. Bill Jaine wrote: Hi all, what in peoples opinion is the best book for the Intercoastal waterway Thanks Bill --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12831|12824|2007-03-14 18:13:10|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Re: Latitude 38: 44-ft junk ketch Bella Via|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > > No, that's Steve on Bu'kwiis. Always a camera around when you don't want one! > Yes, you are correct. Lattitude 38 posted a correction today: http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2007/0307/Mar14/Mar14.html#anch or534873 We Had It All Wrong March 14 - San Blas, Mexico Steve Rankin has good reason to be a little miffed at us. In the March 9 'Lectronic we ran a photo of his boat Bu'Kwiis. Since she sort of looked as though she had run aground at the entrance to the estuary in San Blas, Mexico, and since some boats have done that recently, that's what we reported. But what we assumed had been a case of poor seamanship turns out to have been just the opposite. Rankin explains in an understandably testy tone: "The day I need help from Norm Goldie to enter San Blas Estuary - or anywhere else, for that matter - will be the day I quit sailing and take up knitting or maybe sitting around in a zocalo somewhere blowing smoke. If you have a better way to clean a prop in water you wouldn't swim in than careening your boat, please advise. Believe it or not, careening has been the way boat bottoms have been accessed and cleaned since before Travel-Lifts and rails. And we careened the boat next to the anchorage in the estuary, not at the entrance. While I'm sure there were nothing but good intentions on the part of the cruisers and photographer who were thinking there was a 'situation' with Bu'Kwiis when the photo was taken, we were actually just enjoying the sights from the fort at San Blas while waiting for the tide to drop. By the way, the cleaned prop gave me an extra half knot." While we thought the boat in the photo might have been Bellavia because of the unusual on-deck hydraulic windlass, Rankin tells us that Bu'Kwiis is actually a steel Gazelle hull with a modification of the rig on Bellavia. "Bu'Kwiis has a 510 sq-ft foresail of the Hasler/McLeod design, and a 450 sq-ft Colvin designed fanned sail - both fully-battened junk sails. Bu'Kwiis' keel has been deepened by six inches to about five feet to compensate for the higher center of effort on the sail plan. She has a full-length keel but no skeg. I have careened her three or four times before, but this was the first time since I deepened her keel. When careened, the water reaches the ports, but they don't leak so it doesn't present a problem. "I sailed Bu'Kwiis from British Columbia to Mexico in '04 after an extensive refit, which included adding hydraulics, widening the foredeck, reinforcing the hull to accommodate the unstayed masts, adding the fully enclosed bimini and so forth. By the way, the deck- mounted reel type hydraulic winch is used on our British Columbia fishboats and, of course, Bellavia. My boat has spent the last couple of summers on the hard in Guaymas, and will do so again this year." We're glad we had a chance to clear this up and that Rankin has accepted our apology. By the way, have you ever careened your boat? If so, we'd love to see a photo and a brief explanation (email Richard). - latitude / rs| 12832|22|2007-03-14 18:21:50|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /MAST BOOM CONFIGURATION.doc Uploaded by : claudepoitras Description : This is a drawing to ilustrate how I plan to build my Main Mast BOOM You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/MAST%20BOOM%20CONFIGURATION.doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, claudepoitras | 12833|12833|2007-03-14 18:38:21|Claude|Main Mast Boom Configuration|I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my Main Mast Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell me if I am out to lunch. Claude| 12834|12833|2007-03-14 19:29:37|Tom|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|Hello Claude Im no expert but youre boom looks ok to me, are you planning on steel or aluminum pipe? and what type of sail track are you figuring on using. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claude" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:38 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Main Mast Boom Configuration >I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my Main Mast > Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell me if I am out to > lunch. > Claude > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12835|12835|2007-03-14 22:17:27|Doug|Charter Regs|Greetings. We are pondering a boat that we can use for chartering and we need help in determining how the designer, detail level of the building plans, and surveys all fit into using a boat for charter work as well as insurance. As for chartering I understand that OUPV (6-Pack) license is required. And I can find lots of USCG regulations for boats in general, but that is were I get lost. Can someone please point me in the right direction? Thanks --Doug Jackson| 12836|12785|2007-03-15 00:54:41|vishnubaiju|Re: Intercoastal waterway|What is the specific topic? Boat deasign, navigation rules etc| 12837|12785|2007-03-15 06:13:18|wmar65|Re: Intercoastal waterway|Hi all. Also I'm interested to know best guides to plan cruiser along north-american inland waterway. What difficulties to cruise there on a sailboat with mast pullling down and draft 2 feet ?? Tks for info and suggestions. Walter - Rome - Italy. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike lowe wrote: > > I like the Intracoastal Waterway Facilities Guide. > > Bill Jaine wrote: Hi all, > what in peoples opinion is the best book for the Intercoastal waterway > Thanks > Bill > > | 12838|12785|2007-03-15 10:57:58|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Re: Intercoastal waterway|I would suggest the "WaterWay Guide" There are 3 volumes for the East Coast - Southern, Mid, & Northern - and the Great Lakes. A bit pricey at $40.00 each, but well worth it as they have a wealth of information including marina's & phone numbers, approaches, ariel photo's, things to do ashore, brief history of towns, anchorages and bridge height and time tables. You can look through it here http://www.waterwayguide.com/ Hope this helps Cam ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Jaine To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Intercoastal waterway Hi all, what in peoples opinion is the best book for the Intercoastal waterway Thanks Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12839|12833|2007-03-15 23:06:26|Claude|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|The boom will be made out of steel pipe because weight is nota problem at this level. As for the sail track, I do not know what to use yet. I am still looking. Claude --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Claude > Im no expert but youre boom looks ok to me, are you planning on steel or > aluminum pipe? and what type of sail track are you figuring on using. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Claude" > > I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my > Main Mast Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell > me if I am out to lunch. > > Claude | 12840|12833|2007-03-16 00:10:05|Tom|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|Same here on sail track, I dont like the idea of bolting on aluminum to steel and the stainless track is expensive by the time you buy the cars+track. I am going to experiment with 1/2" sch 40 stainless pipe , cut a slot with plasma cutter and dress it up with cutoff wheel in grinder, if it works ok I may use it on mast and boom Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claude" To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration > The boom will be made out of steel pipe because weight is nota problem > at this level. As for the sail track, I do not know what to use yet. > I am still looking. > Claude > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >> >> Hello Claude >> Im no expert but youre boom looks ok to me, are you planning on > steel or >> aluminum pipe? and what type of sail track are you figuring on using. >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Claude" >> >> I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my >> Main Mast Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell >> me if I am out to lunch. >> > Claude > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12841|12833|2007-03-17 16:24:40|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|Tom, Consider getting someone to split it for you in a milling machine. Plasma will make an awful mess on the inside of the pipe and you will have to a do a lot of grinding to keep the edge rust free. Using just a Bridgeport style mill and clamping the pipe in a table slot, then using a stub length carbide end mill you should be able to cut this at about 10 inches per minute 30 inches per pass I would think. So a couple of hours would give you a real nice job. One thing to recognize, the pipe will probably spring open somewhat when you make the cut, so the slot may be wider than you think. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration > Same here on sail track, I dont like the idea of bolting on aluminum to > steel and the stainless track is expensive by the time you buy the > cars+track. I am going to experiment with 1/2" sch 40 stainless pipe , cut > a > slot with plasma cutter and dress it up with cutoff wheel in grinder, if > it > works ok I may use it on mast and boom > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Claude" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:06 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration > > >> The boom will be made out of steel pipe because weight is nota problem >> at this level. As for the sail track, I do not know what to use yet. >> I am still looking. >> Claude >> >> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >>> >>> Hello Claude >>> Im no expert but youre boom looks ok to me, are you planning on >> steel or >>> aluminum pipe? and what type of sail track are you figuring on using. >>> Tom >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Claude" >>> >>> I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my >>> Main Mast Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell >>> me if I am out to lunch. >>> > Claude >> >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > > | 12842|12833|2007-03-17 17:04:43|Paul Wilson|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|Claude, I would try to make both reef lines on the same side as your mainsail halyard if you can. Otherwise you will have to cross over to the other side of the boom to make a reef. I also find a winch or some kind of a purchase pretty much necessary for the reef lines on my 36. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: "origamiboats@yahoogroups.com" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:21:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] New file uploaded to origamiboats Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /MAST BOOM CONFIGURATION. doc Uploaded by : claudepoitras Description : This is a drawing to ilustrate how I plan to build my Main Mast BOOM You can access this file at the URL: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/origamiboa ts/files/ MAST%20BOOM% 20CONFIGURATION. doc To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help. yahoo.com/ help/us/groups/ files Regards, claudepoitras ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12843|12798|2007-03-17 19:17:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: wire---splicing|The Bones was rigged with Liverpool splices. Never had the least problem with them. This resource shows a couple of ways, right and wrong, to put eyes in wire rope. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/55-501/chap12- 2.htm 12-99. This paragraph discusses how to put both a temporary eye and a permanent eye in wire rope. A temporary eye can be put in wire rope by using wire rope clips or by using a field expedient known as a "hasty eye" or "Molly Hogan" splice. A Liverpool splice is the accepted method for putting a permanent eye in the end of a wire rope. With the proper equipment, and a bit of practice, a Liverpool splice can be put in wire rope in less than 15 minutes. MARINE CREWMAN'S HANDBOOK http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/55-501/ Greg http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12844|12798|2007-03-17 21:05:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: wire---splicing|Another source http://www.geocities.com/thelonelysailor/splicing.pdf From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ge@... Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 4:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: wire---splicing The Bones was rigged with Liverpool splices. Never had the least problem with them. This resource shows a couple of ways, right and wrong, to put eyes in wire rope. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/55-501/chap12- 2.htm 12-99. This paragraph discusses how to put both a temporary eye and a permanent eye in wire rope. A temporary eye can be put in wire rope by using wire rope clips or by using a field expedient known as a "hasty eye" or "Molly Hogan" splice. A Liverpool splice is the accepted method for putting a permanent eye in the end of a wire rope. With the proper equipment, and a bit of practice, a Liverpool splice can be put in wire rope in less than 15 minutes. MARINE CREWMAN'S HANDBOOK http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/55-501/ Greg http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12845|12833|2007-03-17 23:07:55|Tom|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|Hey Gary To late I allready have a 32' mast together used 2-1/2" sch10 pipe sliced out 3/4" slot and started welding in 1/2" stainless pipe figured I would slice the stainless after all welded. pre bent mast about 6" to compinsate for weld shrinkage and it wasnt enough, resembles a bannana. I havnt given up yet I can slice and dice the front side to compensate to make it streight, not to worried about welding on front side if done right the welds are stronger than the pipe itself. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration > Tom, > Consider getting someone to split it for you in a milling machine. Plasma > will make an awful mess on the inside of the pipe and you will have to a > do > a lot of grinding to keep the edge rust free. Using just a Bridgeport > style > mill and clamping the pipe in a table slot, then using a stub length > carbide > end mill you should be able to cut this at about 10 inches per minute 30 > inches per pass I would think. So a couple of hours would give you a real > nice job. One thing to recognize, the pipe will probably spring open > somewhat when you make the cut, so the slot may be wider than you think. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration > > >> Same here on sail track, I dont like the idea of bolting on aluminum to >> steel and the stainless track is expensive by the time you buy the >> cars+track. I am going to experiment with 1/2" sch 40 stainless pipe , >> cut >> a >> slot with plasma cutter and dress it up with cutoff wheel in grinder, if >> it >> works ok I may use it on mast and boom >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Claude" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:06 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration >> >> >>> The boom will be made out of steel pipe because weight is nota problem >>> at this level. As for the sail track, I do not know what to use yet. >>> I am still looking. >>> Claude >>> >>> --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Claude >>>> Im no expert but youre boom looks ok to me, are you planning on >>> steel or >>>> aluminum pipe? and what type of sail track are you figuring on using. >>>> Tom >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Claude" >>>> >>>> I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my >>>> Main Mast Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell >>>> me if I am out to lunch. >>>> > Claude >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12846|12798|2007-03-18 08:33:43|Bill Jaine|Re: wire---splicing|Most helpful, Thnaks Bill http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/55-501/chap12-2.htm#12-5 ge@... wrote: > > The Bones was rigged with Liverpool splices. Never had the least problem > with them. This resource shows a couple of ways, right and wrong, to put > eyes in wire rope. > > http://www.globalse curity.org/ military/ library/policy/ army/fm/55- > 501/chap12- > > 2.htm > > 12-99. This paragraph discusses how to put both a temporary eye and a > permanent eye in wire rope. A temporary eye can be put in wire rope by > using > wire rope clips or by using a field expedient known as a "hasty eye" or > "Molly Hogan" splice. A Liverpool splice is the accepted method for > putting > a permanent eye in the end of a wire rope. With the proper equipment, > and a > bit of practice, a Liverpool splice can be put in wire rope in less > than 15 > minutes. > > MARINE CREWMAN'S HANDBOOK > > http://www.globalse curity.org/ military/ library/policy/ army/fm/55- > 501/ > > > Greg > > http://www.origamim agic.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date: 3/13/2007 4:51 PM > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12847|12798|2007-03-18 13:21:52|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: wire---splicing|Preformed guy grips can fail for a number of different reasons. Repositioning to adjust the rigging is one. They are used in applications with cyclical loading and unloading, such as towers that sway in the wind. They are rated superior to cable clips by the US Coast Guard for guying towers. http://www.uscg.mil/ccs/cit/cim/directives/CIM/CIM_11000_4A.pdf Chapter 6 Cable End Fittings. Terminals for the various types of guy cables previously discussed are factory applied compression (press type) fittings, sockets, and pre-formed Big-Grip dead-ends. These end fittings are designed to have a holding efficiency equal to or greater than the catalog rated strength of the cable to which they are applied. Cable clips are less efficient, and consequently are not authorized for any new structural application. See Appendix C for illustrations of end fittings. Appendix C also shows wire grades and strengths. Greg http://www.origamimagic.com/ From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 11:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: wire---splicing A friend had those splices pull out off the oregon coast a bit with every tug. They will take only a steady pull but not a sea swell. brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "John Jones" wrote: > > Take some time to check out your local "wire" utility company and ask where > you can locate the pre-formed spiral ends they use on their support wires. > Ma Bell and Cable T.V. uses a 1/4" galvinized cable "stran" to support the > Telephone or CATV Equipment and wires and these ends are very strong and > easy to apply to said 1/4" wires and makes for a real fast and efficiant backup > for emergency situations. > John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , "shaunbarrymcmillan" < > shaunbarrymcmillan@> wrote: > > > > I tried some galvy wire splicing about 5 years ago using Brion Toss' > > book The Rigger's Apprentice. Problem was the wire was too small to > > really splice well (it was 1/4 inch). it would not have suited my > > Folkboat in any case. But bigger sized wire would work better (3/8"). > > Any how, before coming on the site tonight I picked up the latest > > Wooden Boat Magazine because it had an article on wire splicing. I > > really think that if you simplified Toss' splice it would be much > > easier. You could destructive test splices as they became more > > consistent. As I shop for my second boat, hopefully traditional wood, > > steel, or aluminium, or even an old classic plastic---wire splicing is > > still one thing that I would really like to do. One of those ancient > > skills going with time. Anyway enough lurking--I'm off to increase my > > boat kitty. But splicing is still a prudent way to rig if you can get > > consistent. From what I hear it takes one to two months of thoughtful > > practice. Not bad in our world of immiediate gratification. Fair Winds > > and Fair Tides Shaun McMillan > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12848|12785|2007-03-18 18:59:37|brentswain38|Re: Offshore?|In the early 70's I spent a year working in New Zealand. After a year I saved up $600NZ. A yank left his boat there , flew to Alaska , and came back a year later with $12,000. Boy did I feel like a sucker. You are far better off to leave your boat, fly home and make real wages, then fly back. A lot of people do that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wilson wrote: > > If you are speaking about working along the way.... > > Having spent the last 10 years in the south pacific I would say if you want to make money while cruising, forget it. The only people you could possibly make money from are fellow cruisers and they are too cheap to make it worth your while. I could have had no end of work fixing electronics for cruisers since that is what I do, but usually the payback would be a free dinner or a beer. The French countries are taken over by the French Expats on two year rotations so you can forget about them since the cost of living is so high. I would live cheap in Canada, the States or wherever, save your money and then go with the idea of not working along the way. It's not like it used to be. > > The easiest way to get kicked out of Fiji is to start working. I heard of someone being threatened to be kicked out for volunteering to show school kids how to make their own dolls and toys so they had something for home. They claimed it was taking a job from a Fijian...not true but they don't think right about these things. Doctors couldn't even volunteer in hospitals even though they are sorely needed. Tonga, although much slacker with officialdom, has its own Expat community struggling to make a living and if you go in and try to get work they will turn you in if you haven't dropped through all the hoops. Bottom line is, the islands are great, you can live cheap (but not too cheap), have a great time, but don't expect ot make any money along the way. I have found that there all types out cruising...rich and poor. I have seen people trying to cruise on unrealistc budgets and it gives all cruisers a bad name. It's important to be realistic and go with enough money > so you don't become a burden to the local people. I have seen cruisers park themselves in front of a village and eat there food for months and give nothing in return. The villagers are poor enough as it is. > > As to other aspects of officialdom, my experience is if you follow the rules, the officials are fine. I have never had a problem in the south pacific other than Hawaii but thats too long of a story. I just won't go back there. > > I rambled a bit, sorry if I sound too negative, its great down there so go..... > > Cheers, Paul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Gary > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:26:54 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Offshore? > > > Just wondering what is actually out there for the prudent (tight > money) cruiser upon arriving at a given port in the fabled southern > lats destinations. Lately, I have been surfing various cruising sites > and the impression is negative...mostly in terms of officialdom and > regs regarding where and if even you can anchor, stay or are indeed > welcome. > > My experience with cruising BC past 2 yrs since launch has been a > welcome total absence of meeting any authority and also absence of > most any other boats in vast areas. Is there room in southern > destinations for the not so weathly, resourceful type of cruiser > anymore or has it all come down to money? I guess, is it worth the > effort or is it a matter that bad news just makes newsworthy reading > on the bigger cruising sites. Is this a case of just hearing about > isolated incidents distorting the reality out there? Comments > appreciated. .. > > Gary > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12849|12785|2007-03-18 19:04:44|brentswain38|Re: Offshore?|In three decades of cruising , only once did a bare breasted stranger swim out to my boat, make me very happy , then leave . She was a tourist, not a native. Don't plan on it. Brent . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Greg & Christine Vassilakos" wrote: > > I am so disappointed after reading these posts. I had images in my > mind of bare breasted maidens swimming out to my boat at my first south > seas port. Instead, the focus of these posts seems to be how to deal > with petty officialdom and find cheap beer. I guess I am a century or > two too late. Perhaps I should just stay home and wait for the latest > remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty" on HBO. > | 12850|12833|2007-03-18 19:09:24|brentswain38|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|I bought my current boom in a scrapyard for $11. It is a 5 inch diameter aluminium tube with a 1/8th inch wall. For my last boat I went to a lumber yard and bought a fir 4X4 for $7. When I walked it down the dock and told a German friend about it, he cursed " I paid a guy $200 to glue up my boom. " Its just a hunk of aluminium or wood that can be chaged in a matter of minutes if you don't like it. Get your ass out cruising, as quickly and cheaply as possible, and deal with embellishments later.Concentrate your time and energy on that which can't be easily changed later. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my Main Mast > Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell me if I am out to > lunch. > Claude > | 12851|12833|2007-03-18 19:14:37|brentswain38|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|After 22 years of full time cruising , six pacific crossings, nine trips to the Charlottes and back , I till haven't got around to putting a track on my boom. The main is loose footed and the boom is stiff enough to support it. Probably never will put a track on. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > The boom will be made out of steel pipe because weight is nota problem > at this level. As for the sail track, I do not know what to use yet. > I am still looking. > Claude > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > > > Hello Claude > > Im no expert but youre boom looks ok to me, are you planning on > steel or > > aluminum pipe? and what type of sail track are you figuring on using. > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Claude" > > > > I have dounloaded a file (drawing) on how I plan to build my > > Main Mast Boom. I would like the experts, like Brent, to tell > > me if I am out to lunch. > > > Claude > | 12852|12833|2007-03-18 23:12:08|Claude|Re: Main Mast Boom Configuration|You are correct, Brent. I am starting to think that way too. Thanks Claude --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > I bought my current boom in a scrapyard for $11. It is a 5 inch > diameter aluminium tube with a 1/8th inch wall. > Get your ass out cruising, as quickly and > cheaply as possible, and deal with embellishments later. | 12853|12785|2007-03-19 11:26:36|Gary|Re: Offshore?|...oh, yeah Brent...I remember the day well, then she went to your boat...but it can happen ... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > In three decades of cruising , only once did a bare breasted stranger > swim out to my boat, make me very happy , then leave . She was a > tourist, not a native. > Don't plan on it. > Brent . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Greg & Christine Vassilakos" > wrote: > > > > I am so disappointed after reading these posts. I had images in my > > mind of bare breasted maidens swimming out to my boat at my first > south > > seas port. Instead, the focus of these posts seems to be how to deal > > with petty officialdom and find cheap beer. I guess I am a century > or > > two too late. Perhaps I should just stay home and wait for the > latest > > remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty" on HBO. > > > | 12854|12854|2007-03-19 20:24:57|Ralf Deutsch|interest in swain31|hello, my name is Ralf and I am new here. I would like to thank everybody for the input to this group. It made for some fine reading during the last couple of days. I live on Jeju Island in South Korea and there is not much 'yachting ' going on here. So if one wants a boat here and is not a millionaire you better make one yourself as a used boat market is almost not existant. Brent Swains method defenitely looks like something within my possibilities and I am most interested in the 31 footer. Could somebody please post some data about that boat. I found length and draft and ballast but nothing about beam, displacement, wetted surface and sail area. Mr. Swain if you read this, I have send some money your way to order your book. I hope it arrives well and I can get the book soon. I am most anxious to start reading. Thanks again. Ralf| 12855|1266|2007-03-19 20:25:46|Alex|Alex|Need a boat for a 6 party for 2 to 3 days, easy please. alex| 12856|12856|2007-03-19 23:25:57|tazmannusa|experimental mast section for the BS 26|Hello all I posted a picture of the progress on my steel mast, Its here in the photos steel mast section album. So far about a day and a half tinkering with it 90 some odd feet of hand cutting with plasma and 60 feet of solid welding with mig. Not the easeyest to keep streight but it is doable, It is 4Lbs a foot with sail slot in, not to bad. The pipe is 2-1/2" sch 10 .125 wall and 2-7/8" OD, The stainless pipe is 1/2" sch40 304 grade that I picked up from scrap yard. The sail slot I cut with plasma then a stainless cutoff wheel then an 1/8" cutting and gouging wheel, got about 30' done and fryed my dewalt grinder I guess there not supposed to be used as milling machine. Tom| 12857|12856|2007-03-20 12:39:41|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: experimental mast section for the BS 26|Hi Tom, Thanks for the update and the pic. Keep us posted. I, too, have been considering a steel mast for the 26 - all options are open at this point. Cheers Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: tazmannusa Date: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:22 pm Subject: [origamiboats] experimental mast section for the BS 26 > Hello all > I posted a picture of the progress on my steel mast, Its here in > the > photos steel mast section album. So far about a day and a half > tinkering with it 90 some odd feet of hand cutting with plasma and > 60 > feet of solid welding with mig. Not the easeyest to keep streight > but > it is doable, It is 4Lbs a foot with sail slot in, not to bad. The > pipe > is 2-1/2" sch 10 .125 wall and 2-7/8" OD, The stainless pipe is > 1/2" > sch40 304 grade that I picked up from scrap yard. The sail slot I > cut > with plasma then a stainless cutoff wheel then an 1/8" cutting and > gouging wheel, got about 30' done and fryed my dewalt grinder I > guess > there not supposed to be used as milling machine. > Tom > > | 12858|12858|2007-03-20 14:05:18|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|rudder and skeg plate thickness|I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the skeg or rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the archived messages. I can make the skeg and rudder out of one 4'x10' sheet, so should I use 1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" like the keel sides? Thanks. --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12859|12858|2007-03-20 15:25:11|paulcotter@acsalaska.net|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|I made my rudder (and have pieces for the skeg cut) from 10 gauge plate. The rudder is HEAVY! I definately wouldn't go with 3/16 on the rudder. I asked Brent about these same things a year or so ago- rudder can be made of 10-12 gauge. I'd stay with 10 gauge or 1/8 for the skeg. I'm using solid bar for the leading edge of the skeg; the skeg on the 26 is small enough to be manageable with a solid leading edge. Cheers Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: RICHARD KOKEMOOR Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:05 am Subject: [origamiboats] rudder and skeg plate thickness > I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the > skeg or rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the > archived messages. I can make the skeg and rudder out of one > 4'x10' sheet, so should I use 1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" > like the keel sides? Thanks. > > --------------------------------- > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > | 12860|12785|2007-03-20 17:16:17|Greg & Christine Vassilakos|Re: Offshore?|So it does still happen! I'll have to get to work on my boat right away. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > > In three decades of cruising , only once did a bare breasted stranger > swim out to my boat, make me very happy , then leave . She was a > tourist, not a native. > Don't plan on it. > Brent . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Greg & Christine Vassilakos" > wrote: > > > > I am so disappointed after reading these posts. I had images in my > > mind of bare breasted maidens swimming out to my boat at my first > south > > seas port. Instead, the focus of these posts seems to be how to deal > > with petty officialdom and find cheap beer. I guess I am a century > or > > two too late. Perhaps I should just stay home and wait for the > latest > > remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty" on HBO. > > > | 12861|12858|2007-03-20 19:36:40|Tom|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|Hello Richard My plans show 3/16" on skeg and 1-1/2 sch 40 pipe leading edge, If your going with twin keel option and going to be sitting on the hard with it I would stick to the 3/16" plate, I am running single keel so I used 10 gage on skeg with 1-1/2" pipe leading edge and 12 gage on the rudder to shave a few pounds off the stern. The keel I used a 4' x 8' x 3/16" plate. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] rudder and skeg plate thickness >I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the skeg or >rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the archived messages. >I can make the skeg and rudder out of one 4'x10' sheet, so should I use >1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" like the keel sides? Thanks. > > --------------------------------- > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > | 12862|12856|2007-03-20 21:22:45|Tom|Re: experimental mast section for the BS 26|Hello Paul The only thing about this one I am not sure if it is stiff enough fore and aft might need to add stiffener to front side of some sort, Its tuff trying to keep it light and strong. Any stiffener I add will add at least another 20 lbs to it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] experimental mast section for the BS 26 > Hi Tom, > > Thanks for the update and the pic. Keep us posted. I, too, have been > considering a steel mast for the 26 - all options are open at this point. > > Cheers > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: tazmannusa > Date: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:22 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] experimental mast section for the BS 26 > >> Hello all >> I posted a picture of the progress on my steel mast, Its here in >> the >> photos steel mast section album. So far about a day and a half >> tinkering with it 90 some odd feet of hand cutting with plasma and >> 60 >> feet of solid welding with mig. Not the easeyest to keep streight >> but >> it is doable, It is 4Lbs a foot with sail slot in, not to bad. The >> pipe >> is 2-1/2" sch 10 .125 wall and 2-7/8" OD, The stainless pipe is >> 1/2" >> sch40 304 grade that I picked up from scrap yard. The sail slot I >> cut >> with plasma then a stainless cutoff wheel then an 1/8" cutting and >> gouging wheel, got about 30' done and fryed my dewalt grinder I >> guess >> there not supposed to be used as milling machine. >> Tom >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12863|12863|2007-03-21 00:28:44|shaunbarrymcmillan|re; mast for BS26( a question)|Anyway, I'm wondering why someone can't sleeve the pieces to a mast of suitable length and then add an external track like a wooden grown mast, see George Buehler's book Backyard Boatbuilding (just a thought to an easier job/mast).There is a file on the group and Metal Boat Quarterly out of Northwest Washington also did an article some 8-10 years ago. Just a thought| 12864|12863|2007-03-21 09:36:55|mickeyolaf|Re: re; mast for BS26( a question)|You can buy a complete new mast ready to stand up including "in mast" furling, spreaders and wiring for $999.00 at US Spars. These masts are suitable for 27-30' boats. Go to their web site, then "products" then "special deals". --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "shaunbarrymcmillan" wrote: > > > > Anyway, I'm wondering why someone can't sleeve the pieces to a mast of > suitable length and then add an external track like a wooden grown > mast, see George Buehler's book Backyard Boatbuilding (just a thought > to an easier job/mast).There is a file on the group and Metal Boat > Quarterly out of Northwest Washington also did an article some 8- 10 > years ago. Just a thought > | 12865|12854|2007-03-21 10:16:37|mickeyolaf|Re: interest in swain31|A BS31 is a big boat and I initially was going to go for this length. But when u look what can be done interior and bunk length wise with the BS36 and the additional deck space etc the extra 5'of length and the volume of the 36 is a better idea. I couldn't fit in the 7' berths in the 31 nor a decent sized head and shower nor the tanks or anchor locker I wanted. But the 36 easily accommodated them plus a pilothouse and pilot berth, a 9' quarter berth, a 7' dinette/berth. I spent hours with my ruler trying to make the 31 work to allow good sleeping for 4 and gave up. The 31 is good for 2 but is too small for 4. You will have to equip the 31 similer to the 36. The extra cost will be small compared to the additional space in and out u will have if u go to the 36. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > hello, > my name is Ralf and I am new here. I would like to thank everybody for > the input to this group. It made for some fine reading during the last > couple of days. I live on Jeju Island in South Korea and there is not > much 'yachting ' going on here. So if one wants a boat here and is not > a millionaire you better make one yourself as a used boat market is > almost not existant. Brent Swains method defenitely looks like > something within my possibilities and I am most interested in the 31 > footer. > Could somebody please post some data about that boat. I found length > and draft and ballast but nothing about beam, displacement, wetted > surface and sail area. > Mr. Swain if you read this, I have send some money your way to order > your book. I hope it arrives well and I can get the book soon. I am > most anxious to start reading. Thanks again. > Ralf > | 12866|12863|2007-03-21 13:12:39|Tom|Re: re; mast for BS26( a question)|Yes that would be a lot simpler but all the stainless track I can find are for ataching to a flat surface, Aluminum t track would fit fine but it would be hard to try to isolate it from the steel, not saying it cant be done. eather the stainless or aluminum is expensive by the time you buy the track, cars and all the dang screws that go every 4" and thats a lot of drilling and tapping. So far I have less than $200 and about 10 hours in it. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "shaunbarrymcmillan" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] re; mast for BS26( a question) > > > Anyway, I'm wondering why someone can't sleeve the pieces to a mast of > suitable length and then add an external track like a wooden grown > mast, see George Buehler's book Backyard Boatbuilding (just a thought > to an easier job/mast).There is a file on the group and Metal Boat > Quarterly out of Northwest Washington also did an article some 8-10 > years ago. Just a thought > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12867|12867|2007-03-21 19:37:01|Mike|Re: Ordering Plans|Brent, et al, I sent an e-mail to Brent, expressing interest in buying plans for the 40 footer. I haven't received any response, over the past couple of weeks. If you read this, Brent, please call me at: (604)215-8713 If Brent is presently unavailable, could someone advise me on the best way to contact him/order the plans. Thanks Mike| 12868|12868|2007-03-21 22:18:55|morechance65|Seeing me, a militray girl's sexy body through web cam.|I am sexy, passionate & military lonely girl. Trying to have fun. let's enjoy chatting through web cam to see my sexy body. Register here, and more fun will be your side. http://onemilitary62.bravehost.com/index.html| 12869|12867|2007-03-21 22:59:40|J Fisher|Re: Ordering Plans|Best way to order plans is to send the $$ to the address listed in the files section. It seemed odd to me originally, but I have ordered 2 books and a set of 40' plans with no issues. John -------Original Message------- From: Mike Date: 3/21/2007 4:37:02 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ordering Plans Brent, et al, I sent an e-mail to Brent, expressing interest in buying plans for the 40 footer. I haven't received any response, over the past couple of weeks. If you read this, Brent, please call me at: (604)215-8713 If Brent is presently unavailable, could someone advise me on the best way to contact him/order the plans. Thanks Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12870|12863|2007-03-21 23:36:09|Aaron Williams|Re: re; mast for BS26( a question)|Tom I was wondering if you could have used a SS chanel with strips cut out [__] say like 6" strips then leave 2" to weld to the mast. The chanel could be pre drilled to fit track of choice and you could paint under it. shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: Anyway, I'm wondering why someone can't sleeve the pieces to a mast of suitable length and then add an external track like a wooden grown mast, see George Buehler's book Backyard Boatbuilding (just a thought to an easier job/mast).There is a file on the group and Metal Boat Quarterly out of Northwest Washington also did an article some 8-10 years ago. Just a thought --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12871|12854|2007-03-22 05:17:44|Ralf Deutsch|Re: interest in swain31|Thanks for the advice. I was thinking about a 28 footer for quite a while and found it big enough so a 31 footer seems rather large. The choice is more between 26 and 31 feet. I denefitely want a simple boat that I can sail single handed if I have to. Increase in ground tackle, sail area, winch size, rope size, engine, fuel capacity, etc...... it all ads up and will make my life more complicated. That is just the opposite of what I am looking for in a boat. Does anybody know the beam, displacement, sail area and wetted surface of the BS31 and could please post it? Thanks again Ralf| 12872|12867|2007-03-22 05:23:16|vishnubaiju|Ordering Plans|Which plan are you looking for? Give me more details .I am a Naval Architectand probably I can help/support you with a plan.| 12873|12854|2007-03-22 09:57:50|Tom|Re: interest in swain31|Hello Ralf Brent Book shows the basics on the diferent boats The 31' LOA 31' Beam 10' Draft 4'-6" Displacement 12000 lbs Keel Wt. 3500 lbs LWL 26'-6" That is a tuff , 26 or 31 Everyone has differant opinons on the size to go with . The only advantage I could see for you to go to the 26 is it is legaly trailerable. In the files section there is a materials list for the different boats, with that you might be able to figure roughly the cost differents in the hull+cabin. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralf Deutsch" To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:17 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: interest in swain31 > Thanks for the advice. I was thinking about a 28 footer for quite a > while and found it big enough so a 31 footer seems rather large. The > choice is more between 26 and 31 feet. I denefitely want a simple boat > that I can sail single handed if I have to. Increase in ground tackle, > sail area, winch size, rope size, engine, fuel capacity, etc...... it > all ads up and will make my life more complicated. That is just the > opposite of what I am looking for in a boat. > Does anybody know the beam, displacement, sail area and wetted surface > of the BS31 and could please post it? > Thanks again > Ralf > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12874|12867|2007-03-22 19:54:05|Mike|Re: Ordering Plans|John, Thanks for the information. I have a few additions and/or changes that I wish to discuss with Brent, so I expect that the plans price will be adjusted. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "J Fisher" wrote: > > Best way to order plans is to send the $$ to the address listed in the files > section. It seemed odd to me originally, but I have ordered 2 books and a > set of 40' plans with no issues. > > John > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Mike > Date: 3/21/2007 4:37:02 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Ordering Plans > > Brent, et al, > I sent an e-mail to Brent, expressing interest in buying plans for the > 40 footer. I haven't received any response, over the past couple of > weeks. If you read this, Brent, please call me at: (604)215-8713 > If Brent is presently unavailable, could someone advise me on the best > way to contact him/order the plans. > Thanks > Mike > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12875|12863|2007-03-22 22:03:07|Tom|Re: re; mast for BS26( a question)|Hello Aaron That might work a guy would have to try it on a small section first and see. You would still have to bow the mast a foot or two forward bend before you welded it on just the 2" welds every 6" would shape it like a bananna. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re; mast for BS26( a question) > Tom > I was wondering if you could have used a SS chanel with strips cut out > [__] say like 6" strips then leave 2" to weld to the mast. The chanel > could be pre drilled to fit track of choice and you could paint under it. > > > shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: > > > Anyway, I'm wondering why someone can't sleeve the pieces to a mast of > suitable length and then add an external track like a wooden grown > mast, see George Buehler's book Backyard Boatbuilding (just a thought > to an easier job/mast).There is a file on the group and Metal Boat > Quarterly out of Northwest Washington also did an article some 8-10 > years ago. Just a thought > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your own web address. > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12876|12854|2007-03-23 01:14:17|Ralf Deutsch|Re: interest in swain31|Tom, Thank you for the posting. Very helpful to me at this point. I live on an island and trailering is not an important aspect for me to consider. Good luck with your project. Ralf| 12877|12863|2007-03-23 01:30:28|Aaron Williams|Re: re; mast for BS26( a question)|Tom Yes one would have to build a strong back jig to hold the whole mast while welding or at least 10 foot sections. I have built steam headers for the plant I work at on a lot smaller scale. I like what you have done with you mast, just lazy and looking for an easier way. Tom wrote: Hello Aaron That might work a guy would have to try it on a small section first and see. You would still have to bow the mast a foot or two forward bend before you welded it on just the 2" welds every 6" would shape it like a bananna. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] re; mast for BS26( a question) > Tom > I was wondering if you could have used a SS chanel with strips cut out > [__] say like 6" strips then leave 2" to weld to the mast. The chanel > could be pre drilled to fit track of choice and you could paint under it. > > > shaunbarrymcmillan wrote: > > > Anyway, I'm wondering why someone can't sleeve the pieces to a mast of > suitable length and then add an external track like a wooden grown > mast, see George Buehler's book Backyard Boatbuilding (just a thought > to an easier job/mast).There is a file on the group and Metal Boat > Quarterly out of Northwest Washington also did an article some 8-10 > years ago. Just a thought > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Get your own web address. > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12878|12858|2007-03-23 18:28:10|brentswain38|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the skeg or rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the archived messages. I can make the skeg and rudder out of one 4'x10' sheet, so should I use 1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" like the keel sides? Thanks. > > --------------------------------- > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12879|12858|2007-03-23 18:29:19|brentswain38|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the skeg or rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the archived messages. I can make the skeg and rudder out of one 4'x10' sheet, so should I use 1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" like the keel sides? Thanks. > > --------------------------------- > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12880|12858|2007-03-23 18:29:55|brentswain38|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|Use the 1/8th inch stuff for rudder . 3/16th is good for the skeg. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, RICHARD KOKEMOOR wrote: > > I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the skeg or rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the archived messages. I can make the skeg and rudder out of one 4'x10' sheet, so should I use 1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" like the keel sides? Thanks. > > --------------------------------- > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12881|12858|2007-03-23 18:31:28|brentswain38|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|For the twin keeler put a piece of 1 1/2 inch shaft in the bottom of the leading edge skeg pipe so if it hits a rock the pipe won't dent . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: > > Hello Richard > My plans show 3/16" on skeg and 1-1/2 sch 40 pipe leading edge, If your > going with twin keel option and going to be sitting on the hard with it I > would stick to the 3/16" plate, I am running single keel so I used 10 gage > on skeg with 1-1/2" pipe leading edge and 12 gage on the rudder to shave a > few pounds off the stern. The keel I used a 4' x 8' x 3/16" plate. > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RICHARD KOKEMOOR" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:05 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] rudder and skeg plate thickness > > > >I am planning a BS 26 and can't find the plate thickness for the skeg or > >rudder on the plans or material lists or anywhere in the archived messages. > >I can make the skeg and rudder out of one 4'x10' sheet, so should I use > >1/8" like the hull plate or 3/16" like the keel sides? Thanks. > > > > --------------------------------- > > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > | 12882|12867|2007-03-23 18:34:33|brentswain38|Re: Ordering Plans|Mike I'll phone you in the next few days Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Brent, et al, > I sent an e-mail to Brent, expressing interest in buying plans for the > 40 footer. I haven't received any response, over the past couple of > weeks. If you read this, Brent, please call me at: (604)215-8713 > If Brent is presently unavailable, could someone advise me on the best > way to contact him/order the plans. > Thanks > Mike > | 12883|12883|2007-03-23 20:00:05|Wesley Cox|Brent's aluminum dinghy|Brent, I have a question, if you don't mind. I bought your book from you some years ago. In it you describe building your dinghy, including hammering it into shape. Did you follow the same welding sequence as with the steel big hulls, as in gradually pull together and weld the darts then pull the hull into final shape? I can't think of any other practical way to do it. My concern is aluminum being more inclined to crack in heat affected zones than steel. Do you only tack the welds before getting the final hull shape or fully weld them? Thanks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12884|12858|2007-03-24 23:20:14|Claude|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|Brent. Is there a reason why the twin-keels are installed into the hull, instead of trimming them like you do with the skeg, and welding them to the outside of the hull. I understand that they have a lost of lead in them and there is not much room left for anything else. I know the fin-keel needs to go inside because there is a lot of room for other things. Claude| 12885|10771|2007-03-26 20:47:16|Tom|BS 26 progress|Hello All I was realy motivated this weekend , managed to install the short rig mast and rigging and made up all the hatches with 3/16" 5052 aluminum. I was going to take them in to have them bent up with a press brake but I figured I would give it a try on my leaf brake and it worked out so well I did them all. I still have to weld up the corners I ran out of time. Wish I had a couple weeks I could work on the boat and finish all the little things I want to get done before sandblasting the inside but just to busy at work to do it . I posted a couple more pictures in origamiboats2 . Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12886|12858|2007-03-27 22:27:06|brentswain38|Re: rudder and skeg plate thickness|Keels take a hell of a beating if you go ontyhe rocks and have to be as strong as you can make them . Attaching them outside wouldn't be strong enough. The lead only half fills the keels ,leavbing the top free to be used as tankage, storage etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > Brent. Is there a reason why the twin-keels are installed into the > hull, instead of trimming them like you do with the skeg, and welding > them to the outside of the hull. I understand that they have a lost of > lead in them and there is not much room left for anything else. > I know the fin-keel needs to go inside because there is a lot of room > for other things. > > Claude > | 12887|12883|2007-03-27 22:29:36|brentswain38|Re: Brent's aluminum dinghy|On mine I beat it to shape and wired the seams with wire thru drilled holes ,so I could keep it on deck until I got to a welder . Then I simply welded it up. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Wesley Cox" wrote: > > Brent, I have a question, if you don't mind. I bought your book from you some years ago. In it you describe building your dinghy, including hammering it into shape. Did you follow the same welding sequence as with the steel big hulls, as in gradually pull together and weld the darts then pull the hull into final shape? I can't think of any other practical way to do it. My concern is aluminum being more inclined to crack in heat affected zones than steel. Do you only tack the welds before getting the final hull shape or fully weld them? Thanks. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12889|12889|2007-03-28 03:53:25|Ralf Deutsch|steel plate question|Hello, I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld smaller pieces of plate together. Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. Ralf| 12890|12889|2007-03-28 03:55:34|Ralf Deutsch|steel plate question|Hello, I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld smaller pieces of plate together. Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. Ralf| 12891|12889|2007-03-28 09:15:24|Tom|Re: steel plate question|Hello Ralf Yes as far as I know the only way to get the sheets in one long piece is off a coil, cut to lenght, You would have to ask them but it should be like a hot roll A36 mild steel. They just call it coil steel because it comes in a big roll. It is more money for it I guess the extra equipment to un roll and streiten out. On my 26 it was about 50% more for full sheets. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralf Deutsch" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] steel plate question > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12892|12889|2007-03-28 09:15:26|Tom|Re: steel plate question|Hello Ralf Yes as far as I know the only way to get the sheets in one long piece is off a coil, cut to lenght, You would have to ask them but it should be like a hot roll A36 mild steel. They just call it coil steel because it comes in a big roll. It is more money for it I guess the extra equipment to un roll and streiten out. On my 26 it was about 50% more for full sheets. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralf Deutsch" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] steel plate question > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12893|12889|2007-03-28 09:19:31|Tom|Re: steel plate question|Hello Ralf Yes as far as I know the only way to get the sheets in one long piece is off a coil, cut to lenght, You would have to ask them but it should be like a hot roll A36 mild steel. They just call it coil steel because it comes in a big roll. It is more money for it I guess the extra equipment to un roll and streiten out. On my 26 it was about 50% more for full sheets. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralf Deutsch" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] steel plate question > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12894|12889|2007-03-28 11:15:35|Carl Anderson|Re: steel plate question|Ralf, The steel for my BS36 came from a "coil". I had it cut to length, wheel abraded, and primed w/ zinc primer. Definitely worth the cost if you are building outside. Carl Ralf Deutsch wrote: > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > > | 12895|12895|2007-03-28 13:36:22|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Starter Motor|Any one interested in a 12Volt Starter for a Perkins T-6354? I have two of them as I have upgraded my engine. You can contact me directly at sytranquility@... or 954-683-7368. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12896|12895|2007-03-28 13:39:34|Cam, Lee, Maya & Fynn|Starter Motor|Any one interested in a 12Volt Starter for a Perkins T-6354? I have two of them as I have upgraded my engine. You can contact me directly at sytranquility@... or 954-683-7368. Thanks Cameron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12897|12897|2007-03-28 15:40:45|Gary|Water pump|Last summer had both pumps break down (not impellers). Anyone have used pump for Yanmar 3GM 27hp? Both needed shaft seals. Other question would be can you repair a shaft seal without specialty tools? If you have to buy the pump even rebuilt they are a costly item. Thanks... Gary| 12898|12897|2007-03-28 16:32:55|deniswig|Re: Water pump|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Last summer had both pumps break down (not impellers). Anyone have > used pump for Yanmar 3GM 27hp? Both needed shaft seals. > > Other question would be can you repair a shaft seal without specialty > tools? If you have to buy the pump even rebuilt they are a costly > item. > > Thanks... Gary > dear gary you can get the seals they are thick carbon washers backed by a spring and the bearings and waterpump grease would be easily availible , the trick is you heat the pully and press the center shaft out and split and clean your pump and polish the area where the seal seats and runs with emery paper as this must be higly polished and flat as the carbon seal is merely lubricated by water and must make a near perfect seal here . the trick is that you must press the pully back on the shaft without breaking the carbon seal in the middle , for geniuses it is no problem for mortals buy a bucket of vallium with the seal kit . regards denis| 12899|12897|2007-03-28 16:35:29|brentswain38|Re: Water pump|A friend was talking about sending his pump in for rebuild. I told him "Why pay them to take it apart when you can do that yourself, and find out how it's put together, and possibly fix it yourself. " I took mine apart , replaced the bearings and put it together for a fraction the cost of sending it to someone else to do. I had bronze oilite bearings machined up to fit the shaft and housing for emergency repairs in remote places. a repairman thousands of miles away is not as as reliable as knowing excactly whats inside and having replacement parts and the knowledge of how to use them aboard. Gary, the simplest solution to your problem may be a remote , belt driven easier to fix pump, and a dry exhuast to eliminate the other pump , as well as a spare for the one remaining pump. If you put a header tank in , you could go for a solid impeller, circulating pump, eliminating the rubber impeller. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Last summer had both pumps break down (not impellers). Anyone have > used pump for Yanmar 3GM 27hp? Both needed shaft seals. > > Other question would be can you repair a shaft seal without specialty > tools? If you have to buy the pump even rebuilt they are a costly > item. > > Thanks... Gary > | 12900|12897|2007-03-28 16:40:13|brentswain38|Re: Water pump|A friend was talking about sending his pump in for rebuild. I told him "Why pay them to take it apart when you can do that yourself, and find out how it's put together, and possibly fix it yourself. " I took mine apart , replaced the bearings and put it together for a fraction the cost of sending it to someone else to do. I had bronze oilite bearings machined up to fit the shaft and housing for emergency repairs in remote places. a repairman thousands of miles away is not as as reliable as knowing excactly whats inside and having replacement parts and the knowledge of how to use them aboard. Gary, the simplest solution to your problem may be a remote , belt driven easier to fix pump, and a dry exhuast to eliminate the other pump , as well as a spare for the one remaining pump. If you put a header tank in , you could go for a solid impeller, circulating pump, eliminating the rubber impeller. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > Last summer had both pumps break down (not impellers). Anyone have > used pump for Yanmar 3GM 27hp? Both needed shaft seals. > > Other question would be can you repair a shaft seal without specialty > tools? If you have to buy the pump even rebuilt they are a costly > item. > > Thanks... Gary > | 12901|12889|2007-03-28 20:57:05|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12902|12889|2007-03-28 20:59:52|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12903|12889|2007-03-28 21:03:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12904|12889|2007-03-28 21:20:01|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12905|12889|2007-03-28 21:33:55|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12906|12889|2007-03-28 21:53:41|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12907|12889|2007-03-28 22:41:15|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12908|12889|2007-03-28 22:48:57|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12909|12889|2007-03-28 22:52:14|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12910|12889|2007-03-28 22:57:15|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12911|12889|2007-03-28 23:15:48|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12912|12889|2007-03-28 23:16:34|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12913|12889|2007-03-28 23:43:37|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12914|12889|2007-03-29 00:09:50|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: steel plate question|Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12915|12889|2007-03-29 00:18:24|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12916|12889|2007-03-29 00:39:53|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12917|12889|2007-03-29 00:51:21|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12918|12889|2007-03-29 00:52:10|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12919|12889|2007-03-29 01:16:27|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12920|12889|2007-03-29 01:41:31|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12921|12889|2007-03-29 01:46:50|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12922|12889|2007-03-29 02:28:27|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12923|12889|2007-03-29 02:34:57|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: steel plate question|Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12924|12889|2007-03-29 02:42:58|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12925|12889|2007-03-29 02:50:18|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: steel plate question|Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12926|12889|2007-03-29 02:55:05|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12927|12897|2007-03-29 03:09:56|Denis Buggy|Re: Water pump|gary waterpump seals are usually a round piece of carbon like a rolo mint backed by a spring against a polished very flat surface ----- Original Message ----- the carbon wears slowly and it takes the shape of the flat surface while the water lubricates the mating surfaces , add two bearings and some special waterpump grease and you have your kit h owever the fun starts after you press the pully off the shaft heat the pully well before hand , when you go to press the pully back on again the kit can be destroyed unless you can somehow directly press the pully onto the impeller shaft without pressing the delicate and very hard carbon seal . if you are set up to do it 40 minutes if not 40 days in the desert, regards denis From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Water pump Last summer had both pumps break down (not impellers). Anyone have used pump for Yanmar 3GM 27hp? Both needed shaft seals. Other question would be can you repair a shaft seal without specialty tools? If you have to buy the pump even rebuilt they are a costly item. Thanks... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12928|12889|2007-03-29 03:18:40|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12929|12889|2007-03-29 03:34:40|Wesley Cox|Re: steel plate question|I have no personal experience with coiled steel as thick as 1/8", but wouldn't a bit of a coil in one direction aid the origami process? ----- Original Message ----- From: BrdbMc@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: steel plate question Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.20/736 - Release Date: 3/27/2007 4:38 PM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12930|12889|2007-03-29 03:59:03|BrdbMc@aol.com|Re: steel plate question|Coiled steel we used in the production of car bodies was first decoiled then put through a machine that detempered the material. This process was described to me as removing the memory of the steel being coiled. Mikeafloat [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12931|12889|2007-03-29 04:09:54|Jon & Wanda(Tink)|Re: steel plate question|Coil steel is exactly the same just coiled up for less space and less shifting when transporting by train or truck. Good friend is a sails rep for Oregon Steel Mill. Jon --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ralf Deutsch" wrote: > > Hello, > I have spoken to a steel supplier and he has 5x20 ft plates (which is > to small for the BS31) and coil steel which can be cut to any length, > but will cost more because its a special order from the mainland and > has higher transportation costs. I would like to avoid having to weld > smaller pieces of plate together. > Is coil steel proper plate material for this purpose? I do not mind > the extra expense as long as I know that I am getting the right stuff. > Ralf > | 12932|12889|2007-03-29 05:59:23|Ralf Deutsch|Re: steel plate question|Wow! Those were quick and very useful replies. Thanks a lot Ralf| 12933|12897|2007-03-29 10:24:06|Denis Buggy|Re: Water pump|gary waterpump seals are usually a round piece of carbon like a rolo mint backed by a spring against a polished very flat surface ----- Original Message ----- the carbon wears slowly and it takes the shape of the flat surface while the water lubricates the mating surfaces , add two bearings and some special waterpump grease and you have your kit h owever the fun starts after you press the pully off the shaft heat the pully well before hand , when you go to press the pully back on again the kit can be destroyed unless you can somehow directly press the pully onto the impeller shaft without pressing the delicate and very hard carbon seal . if you are set up to do it 40 minutes if not 40 days in the desert, regards denis From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 8:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Water pump Last summer had both pumps break down (not impellers). Anyone have used pump for Yanmar 3GM 27hp? Both needed shaft seals. Other question would be can you repair a shaft seal without specialty tools? If you have to buy the pump even rebuilt they are a costly item. Thanks... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12934|12934|2007-03-30 20:48:37|Gary H. Lucas|Steel Source|I just saw a brief article about a steel company getting a steel blasting/painting line. The company supplies large sheets of preprimed steel to the ship builing industry. The company is Delta Steel in Morgan City LA. Gary H. Lucas| 12935|12935|2007-03-31 13:13:35|Doug|Plans for a 55 to 60 ft in Aluminum|I am looking for plans for a 55 to 60 ft origami in Aluminum. Paul Liebenberg; Alex Christie told me you are building a 55ft now. I'd really appreciate hearing from you. Best Regards, Doug Jackson Tulsa OK www.submarineboat.com| 12936|12935|2007-03-31 13:14:59|Doug|Plans for a 55 to 60 ft in Aluminum|I am looking for plans for a 55 to 60 ft origami in Aluminum. Paul Liebenberg; Alex Christie told me you are building a 55ft now. I'd really appreciate hearing from you. Best Regards, Doug Jackson Tulsa OK www.submarineboat.com| 12937|12937|2007-04-01 18:41:04|seansullivanjobs|Cost?|I am on another forum with Brent Swain, and have PMed him there. I don't think he checks his PMs on that site. Maybe he'll see me here. :) I was wondering if anyone could let me know what a rough cost of materials for a 36-40ft steel sailboat constructed using this method. Has anyone on this group completed such a project and tracked costs? We currently have a rather large (45ft) fiberglass boat we charter. We are looking to downgrade in size, complexity and cost dramatically. If you have recorded costs, please do include everything such as spar, sails, rigging, interior fit out, etc... (I know that last one can be infinite, but just the basics would be helpful) Thank you in advance to anyone who can answer this. Capt Sean Sullivan| 12938|12938|2007-04-01 18:42:22|Alex|Nanimo|the guy with the ship for hire, is this the place to get you? alex| 12939|12939|2007-04-02 01:34:29|Doug|Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat than we first imagined. So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off the grid right now). What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? Thanks Doug & Kay Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma www.submarineboat.com| 12940|12939|2007-04-02 03:22:39|Paul Wilson|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Doug To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat than we first imagined. So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off the grid right now). What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? Thanks Doug & Kay Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma www.submarineboat. com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12941|12941|2007-04-02 10:05:04|Claude|Moonflower of Moab|I have just looked at the lattest progress photos of Carl Anderson's boat Construction. Things are progressing very well. I noticed that the two fin-keels are not mounted paralell to each other, or is it an optical ilusion. They appeer to be pointing inward at the front. Is that correct? Nice boat Carl. Claude| 12942|12941|2007-04-02 10:55:49|Carl Anderson|Re: Moonflower of Moab|must be all the smoke & mirrors getting in the way..... when measured out they are parallel within 1/8" or so.... Carl Claude wrote: > I have just looked at the lattest progress photos of Carl Anderson's > boat Construction. Things are progressing very well. > I noticed that the two fin-keels are not mounted paralell to each > other, or is it an optical ilusion. They appeer to be pointing inward > at the front. Is that correct? > Nice boat Carl. > Claude > > | 12943|12941|2007-04-02 11:23:37|Michael Casling|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Twin keels are often towed in, they are not supposed to be paralell on many designs. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Moonflower of Moab must be all the smoke & mirrors getting in the way..... when measured out they are parallel within 1/8" or so.... Carl Claude wrote: > I have just looked at the lattest progress photos of Carl Anderson's > boat Construction. Things are progressing very well. > I noticed that the two fin-keels are not mounted paralell to each > other, or is it an optical ilusion. They appeer to be pointing inward > at the front. Is that correct? > Nice boat Carl. > Claude > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12944|12941|2007-04-02 11:50:14|djackson99@aol.com|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Why? Are they attempting to align the keels to the flow of water around the hull? Doug J Tulsa OK -----Original Message----- From: casling@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Moonflower of Moab Twin keels are often towed in, they are not supposed to be paralell on many designs. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Anderson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Moonflower of Moab must be all the smoke & mirrors getting in the way..... when measured out they are parallel within 1/8" or so.... Carl Claude wrote: > I have just looked at the lattest progress photos of Carl Anderson's > boat Construction. Things are progressing very well. > I noticed that the two fin-keels are not mounted paralell to each > other, or is it an optical ilusion. They appeer to be pointing inward > at the front. Is that correct? > Nice boat Carl. > Claude > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 12945|12939|2007-04-02 13:12:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Creating the patterns to fold a boat is relatively simple. Making this fair is more complicated. Making sure that all the numbers are right, so that the boat sails well, this is more complicated again. Laying out the decks and interiors, so that everything runs true, clearances are correct, takes more time again. Checking the scantlings, so that the strengths match the weights and the loads, this takes more time again. All this adds up to a large amount of trial and error, which is reflected in the cost of building. Either the designer does this which saves time and materials while building, or the builder does it, which typically is reflected in the time and martial required to finish the boat once the hulls is completed. For example. You have a hull designed, interior design mostly complete. You decide to shift the engine to make room for a feature in the interior. This changes the center of gravity of the boat. Either you must shift some ballast, or change the hull lines, to move the center of buoyancy to match the new weight distribution, or the boat will trim down at one end. However, if you move the center of buoyancy you must move the center of floatation to match, or the boat may hobby horse. All of this changes the interior of the boat, which means you may need to move other parts of the interior. This further shifts the weights, and changes all the clearances, which must all be checked and adjusted, which may well require further changes to the hull form. Once this is done, you check all the scantling, increasing and decreasing materials as required, which again changes the weights, which may again change the hull shape. You repeat this process over and over, reducing the errors each time, until you arrive at an optimum hull for a given interior layout. You can skip these steps to save cost, but the end result can be a boat with a less than optimum interior layout, that does not make the best use of the interior space, or a boat where the weight distribution does not match the hull form, too light in some areas, too heavy in others, which may result in less than optimum performance under sail/power. It is not unusual to see a well laid out 26 foot boat with more room than a poorly laid out 36 foot boat. It is not unusual to see the same 26 foot boat out-sail the 36 foot boat, over a wide range of conditions. As the 26 footer typically costs less to build than the 36 footer, some of this saving can be used to pay for the cost of a more complete design. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Doug > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat than we first imagined. So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off the grid right now). What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? Thanks Doug & Kay Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma www.submarineboat. com __________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12946|12941|2007-04-02 15:28:32|brentswain38|Re: Moonflower of Moab|This was determined by tank tests, which propel a model from a fixed point rather than by sails . The critical angle is the angle between the sails and the leeward keel . Their angle relative to the hull is irrelevant. Want the leeward keel toed in, relative to the sails? Sheet the sails in a bit more and point a little higher.Same effect. I've changed the angles and shapes of the keels in the past. The difference was unoticeable. One twin keel 36 footer beat a C&C 35 going to windward in 12 knots of wind.Parallel keels. I sailed circles around a MORC racing boat in 12 knots of wind, on all points of sail,a boat which most otherboats couldn't catch, with my twin keeler , parrallel to the centreline. I sailed from BC and was south of Hawaii in 14 days, and made two trips from Hawaii to BC in 23 days, the first half to windward in 22 knot trade ,in my heavily loaded twin keeler. I left Tonga at the same time as a Bob Perry designed deep fin keeled aluminium boat of the same waterline length , taking 57 days as opposed to the 99 days the Perry design took. I cant be doing that much wrong. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > > Twin keels are often towed in, they are not supposed to be paralell on many designs. > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Carl Anderson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:55 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Moonflower of Moab > > > must be all the smoke & mirrors getting in the way..... > when measured out they are parallel within 1/8" or so.... > > Carl > > Claude wrote: > > > I have just looked at the lattest progress photos of Carl Anderson's > > boat Construction. Things are progressing very well. > > I noticed that the two fin-keels are not mounted paralell to each > > other, or is it an optical ilusion. They appeer to be pointing inward > > at the front. Is that correct? > > Nice boat Carl. > > Claude > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12947|12939|2007-04-02 16:32:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, because it is the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live-aboard cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set of plans for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting patterns. In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Wilson Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. Cheers, Paul ----- Original Message ---- From: Doug > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat than we first imagined. So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off the grid right now). What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? Thanks Doug & Kay Jackson Tulsa, Oklahoma www.submarineboat. com __________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12948|12939|2007-04-02 18:11:07|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as well as he had imagined. On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of them. Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnabago! Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, because it is > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- aboard > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set of plans > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting patterns. > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12949|12939|2007-04-02 18:14:15|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|My plans include plate shapes, hull lines, deck layout,cabin and wheelhouse , deck and hull structural, rudder, skeg ,deck detail, self steering, mast and rigging, sails, interior layout, tankage , everything that matters. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" wrote: > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat.com > | 12950|12939|2007-04-02 18:18:54|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|The big guy from Port Hardy, who cut out Alex's hull plates, said he gave Greg a down payment on a set of plans ,and ended up with nothing. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, because it is > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- aboard > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set of plans > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting patterns. > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12951|12939|2007-04-02 20:11:52|Cy Cy|Tank tested?|Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge keels have a lot of potential to go really wrong if not designed right. Any broaching or self-righting issues? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/| 12952|12952|2007-04-02 20:23:48|Tom|welding on aluminum mast|The short rig mast I have on the 26 does not have any bottom plate on it and the sides curled in a little, I am wondering if I can just weld a 3/8" thick plate to the bottom and forget it or would that weaken the base of the mast more? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12953|12939|2007-04-02 20:52:53|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Tank tested?|Yes, Brent's boats have all been tank tested. In the the big tank, the only one that counts, the one that you sail in. - Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) Cy Cy wrote: > Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge keels > have a lot of potential to go really wrong if not > designed right. Any broaching or self-righting issues? > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > -| 12954|12952|2007-04-02 21:10:48|Aaron Williams|Re: welding on aluminum mast|I thought you used SS not aluminum I would think that part being under compression it would be ok. If you have doubts drill and tap the plate in. Aaron Tom wrote: The short rig mast I have on the 26 does not have any bottom plate on it and the sides curled in a little, I am wondering if I can just weld a 3/8" thick plate to the bottom and forget it or would that weaken the base of the mast more? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12955|12952|2007-04-02 21:11:14|Aaron Williams|Re: welding on aluminum mast|I thought you used SS not aluminum I would think that part being under compression it would be ok. If you have doubts drill and tap the plate in. Aaron Tom wrote: The short rig mast I have on the 26 does not have any bottom plate on it and the sides curled in a little, I am wondering if I can just weld a 3/8" thick plate to the bottom and forget it or would that weaken the base of the mast more? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12956|12941|2007-04-02 21:14:37|Michael Casling|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Best to do a search using google, there are quite a few articles on twin keels. Some use assymetric shapes and others use symetrical shapes, some have towed in the leading edge. I will assume that the hull shape may cause them to use different angles of attack. I do not know what type of boat Carl is building, so that is why I said they may be towed in, or they may not be towed in, depends on the design. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, djackson99@... wrote: > > Why? Are they attempting to align the keels to the flow of water around the hull? > > Doug J > Tulsa OK | 12957|12941|2007-04-02 21:24:23|Michael Casling|Re: Moonflower of Moab|I was not suggesting anyone was doing anything right or wrong. My statement was very simple, twin keels may be towed in on some designs. They may not be towed in on your designs. A search of twin keels using google will reveal this. Your name is mentioned in the number one article. There is also good info on the shape of the keels and a bunch of other stuff. Your book also has your thoughts on the subject. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > This was determined by tank tests, which propel a model from a fixed > point rather than by sails . The critical angle is the angle between > the sails and the leeward keel . Their angle relative to the hull is > irrelevant. Want the leeward keel toed in, relative to the sails? > Sheet the sails in a bit more and point a little higher.Same effect. > I've changed the angles and shapes of the keels in the past. The > difference was unoticeable. One twin keel 36 footer beat a C&C 35 > going to windward in 12 knots of wind.Parallel keels. I sailed > circles around a MORC racing boat in 12 knots of wind, on all points > of sail,a boat which most otherboats couldn't catch, with my twin > keeler , parrallel to the centreline. I sailed from BC and was south > of Hawaii in 14 days, and made two trips from Hawaii to BC in 23 > days, the first half to windward in 22 knot trade ,in my heavily > loaded twin keeler. I left Tonga at the same time as a Bob Perry > designed deep fin keeled aluminium boat of the same waterline > length , taking 57 days as opposed to the 99 days the Perry design > took. I cant be doing that much wrong. > Brent | 12958|12939|2007-04-02 21:44:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|I don't have any idea what you are talking about. I don't know any "big guy" from Port Hardy. I've been offshore so long I don't know anyone from Port hardy. Who the heck are you talking about? When was this payment made? I know nothing about it. It certainly never reached me and the "big guy" has never talked to me about it. I have never received any down payment and failed to deliver as promised. Anyone that says otherwise is blowing smoke out their ass. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:16 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? The big guy from Port Hardy, who cut out Alex's hull plates, said he gave Greg a down payment on a set of plans ,and ended up with nothing. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, because it is > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- aboard > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set of plans > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting patterns. > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12959|12952|2007-04-02 22:23:56|Tom|Re: welding on aluminum mast|Hello Aaron The mast step is stainless, This spar is one I had laying around so I am going to use it for a while, The steel mast I will get back to playing with once I have the boat in the water. hoping to go sailing in july. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Williams" To: Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] welding on aluminum mast >I thought you used SS not aluminum > I would think that part being under compression it would be ok. If you > have doubts drill and tap the plate in. > Aaron > > > Tom wrote: > The short rig mast I have on the 26 does not have any bottom > plate on it and the sides curled in a little, I am wondering if I can just > weld a 3/8" thick plate to the bottom and forget it or would that weaken > the base of the mast more? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > | 12960|12939|2007-04-02 23:07:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|A great hull needs a great interior to be a great boat. Most cruisers know that a boat is only as good as its weakest part. A great hull and a garbage interior does not make a good cruising boat. Sure, you can live in a dumpster if you want. They are about as low cost as you can get. No rent to pay. Free food and clothing delivered regularly. It makes a convenient excuse. Most cruisers at best sail 10% of the time. The rest of the time they are at anchor/dock. A good fraction of that time is spent below. Typically way more than 50%. A such, it make sense to have a great interior as well as a great hull, because you typically spend much more time below than you do sailing. Undervaluing interiors shows a lack of understanding of what really matters. A boat where all parts, interior and exterior are in harmony. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as well as he had imagined. On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of them. Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnabago! Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, because it is > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- aboard > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set of plans > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting patterns. > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12961|12941|2007-04-02 23:40:25|brentswain38|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Viewed from the forehatch they will appear to be toed inward, viewed from the stern they will appear to be toed outward. Only a tape measure will give you thre truth. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" wrote: > > I have just looked at the lattest progress photos of Carl Anderson's > boat Construction. Things are progressing very well. > I noticed that the two fin-keels are not mounted paralell to each > other, or is it an optical ilusion. They appeer to be pointing inward > at the front. Is that correct? > Nice boat Carl. > Claude > | 12962|12939|2007-04-02 23:49:10|brentswain38|Re: Tank tested?|Twin keelers have been proven to be more controlable downwind than single keelers . Self righting is determied by the distance below the centre of buoyancy the ballast is, regardless of whether it's in one keel or two. All my designs have positive stability beyond 170 degrees. Older tank tests didn't do anything to determine ultimate stability, and most modern tank tests don't either. I've tank tested models of my twin keel designs for ultimate stabilty , and they are almost impossibleto keep inverted, even in flat water. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge keels > have a lot of potential to go really wrong if not > designed right. Any broaching or self-righting issues? > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ _____________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > | 12963|12939|2007-04-03 00:10:23|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|$6,000 dollars is a horrendous amount of money to pay for a custom design for a basic hull , decks ,sailplan, keels,skeg and rudder, if it is a fairly conventional design which the designer can sell over and over again for years to come , especially if it designed with the time saving avantages of a computer . If it is a radical design which no one but you will be willing to pay for , then expect to pay the one of price.For a radical one off, the price is high.It takes a lot of work. If in a custom design, for which you already have made your decisions for interior and other drawings which you don't need, then it's up to you to make that clear to the designer. Didn't one designer elsewhere on this site , when we were discussing ways to pay for your cruising dreams, advocate a form of scamming, to avoid the need to get ones hands dirty doing an honest days work? Every one has a track record . Pay close attention to it. Don't buy the used car salesman's line "You always get what you pay for ." If that were true, there would be no such thing as a ripoff. Ralph Nader and consumer product testing labs wouldn't have to do all that testing. They would only have to read the price tag to determine the quality of anything. Boy ,would it be naive to believe that! Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Creating the patterns to fold a boat is relatively simple. Making this fair > is more complicated. Making sure that all the numbers are right, so that > the boat sails well, this is more complicated again. Laying out the decks > and interiors, so that everything runs true, clearances are correct, takes > more time again. Checking the scantlings, so that the strengths match the > weights and the loads, this takes more time again. All this adds up to a > large amount of trial and error, which is reflected in the cost of building. > Either the designer does this which saves time and materials while building, > or the builder does it, which typically is reflected in the time and martial > required to finish the boat once the hulls is completed. > > > > For example. You have a hull designed, interior design mostly complete. > You decide to shift the engine to make room for a feature in the interior. > This changes the center of gravity of the boat. Either you must shift some > ballast, or change the hull lines, to move the center of buoyancy to match > the new weight distribution, or the boat will trim down at one end. > However, if you move the center of buoyancy you must move the center of > floatation to match, or the boat may hobby horse. All of this changes the > interior of the boat, which means you may need to move other parts of the > interior. This further shifts the weights, and changes all the clearances, > which must all be checked and adjusted, which may well require further > changes to the hull form. Once this is done, you check all the scantling, > increasing and decreasing materials as required, which again changes the > weights, which may again change the hull shape. You repeat this process > over and over, reducing the errors each time, until you arrive at an optimum > hull for a given interior layout. > > > > You can skip these steps to save cost, but the end result can be a boat with > a less than optimum interior layout, that does not make the best use of the > interior space, or a boat where the weight distribution does not match the > hull form, too light in some areas, too heavy in others, which may result in > less than optimum performance under sail/power. > > > > It is not unusual to see a well laid out 26 foot boat with more room than a > poorly laid out 36 foot boat. It is not unusual to see the same 26 foot > boat out-sail the 36 foot boat, over a wide range of conditions. As the 26 > footer typically costs less to build than the 36 footer, some of this saving > can be used to pay for the cost of a more complete design. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12964|12952|2007-04-03 00:11:37|brentswain38|Re: welding on aluminum mast|Yes simply welding a 3/8th aluminium plate on would do the trick. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Williams wrote: > > I thought you used SS not aluminum > I would think that part being under compression it would be ok. If you have doubts drill and tap the plate in. > Aaron > > > Tom wrote: > The short rig mast I have on the 26 does not have any bottom plate on it and the sides curled in a little, I am wondering if I can just weld a 3/8" thick plate to the bottom and forget it or would that weaken the base of the mast more? > Tom > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12965|12939|2007-04-03 00:18:46|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Greg How many different interiors have you lived in over a period of time, in cold lattitudes ,where far more time is spent below ? People who have, don't need to pay huge sums of money for advice from someone who hasn't. Many experienced cruisers know far more about what their personall needs for an interior are than some designers ever possibly could. Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnebago. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A great hull needs a great interior to be a great boat. > > > > Most cruisers know that a boat is only as good as its weakest part. A great > hull and a garbage interior does not make a good cruising boat. Sure, you > can live in a dumpster if you want. They are about as low cost as you can > get. No rent to pay. Free food and clothing delivered regularly. It makes > a convenient excuse. > > > > Most cruisers at best sail 10% of the time. The rest of the time they are > at anchor/dock. A good fraction of that time is spent below. Typically way > more than 50%. A such, it make sense to have a great interior as well as a > great hull, because you typically spend much more time below than you do > sailing. > > > > Undervaluing interiors shows a lack of understanding of what really matters. > A boat where all parts, interior and exterior are in harmony. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , > people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A > client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , > before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because > when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of > good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as well > as he had imagined. > On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big > piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of > them. > Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and > prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor > handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? > Buy a Winnabago! > Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, > because it is > > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- > aboard > > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set > of plans > > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting > patterns. > > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for > a 65 > > footer? > > > > > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. > One thing > > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor > when it > > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more > comlicated > > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at > all it is > > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Doug > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife > and > > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > > than we first imagined. > > > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use > 3/8 > > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > > the grid right now). > > > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > > > Thanks > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12966|12939|2007-04-03 00:50:37|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Dimensioning the interior doesn't work, because it is a complex 3D shape, just like the hull. You can't build an origami hull knowing just the dimensions for the hull. You need to know the patterns for the plate. The same with the interior. You need to the interior patterns. Once you have the interior patterns you can build the interior in origami, just like the exterior. How do you build the interior using origami? Build everything from plywood. Cut it from patterns. Glue on "longitudinals" while the panels are flat to stiffen the panels and for mounting panels to panels, and adding hatches, fittings, etc. Number everything for rapid assembly. Instead of furring strips, install the furnishing "ends" to metal tabs set on the longitudinals. These form bulkheads to stiffen the hull athwartships. Assemble the major panels by gluing to these "ends". This stiffens the "bulkheads", further increasing their strength. Glue in the other panels along the "longitudinals", to form seats, drawers, hatches, doors, tables, etc, etc. Power staple everything together to hold while the glue dries. As much as possible, assemble panels into sub assemblies, before installing. This makes it easier to access behind hidden parts - a major problem when assembling interiors. If a sub-assembly will fit through the hatch, consider if it can be built quicker outside, and brought into the boat on the day it is to be installed. Common components like drawers can be built quicker using an assembly line, rather than one by one as required. Mock-ups, cardboard templates, furring strips, framing the interior woodwork piece by piece, custom fitting each part, brass screws - that is framed construction in wood. The time consuming way of doing things we are trying to eliminate. Pre-cut patterns, ply, glue, staples - rapid assembly - the origami method for the interiors. This site is all about using origami to speed construction. If it takes a couple of weeks to build the exterior, but years to build the interior, it still takes years to build the boat. Where is the innovation? Switch to origami for the interiors. Build the entire boat, inside and out in weeks. What is required? Rhino 3D or equivalent. Layout your hull and interiors in 3-D. Check the clearances, check the sightlines, adjust until you are happy, calculate your patterns. Lay them out on the ply. Minimum waste (wood is expensive), minimum time. Voila, origami inside and out. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as well as he had imagined. On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of them. Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnabago! Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, because it is > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- aboard > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set of plans > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting patterns. > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. One thing > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor when it > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more comlicated > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at all it is > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > Cheers, Paul > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Doug > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife and > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > than we first imagined. > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use 3/8 > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > the grid right now). > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > Thanks > Doug & Kay Jackson > Tulsa, Oklahoma > www.submarineboat. com > > __________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12967|12939|2007-04-03 01:05:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Probably a lot more than you have spent in the tropics, where most of the cruising is done, but I'm not talking about building "my" interiors. Rather how to build interiors faster and better, to save time and money and end up with a better product. As you say. Want a garbage interior, buy a dumpster. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:19 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? Greg How many different interiors have you lived in over a period of time, in cold lattitudes ,where far more time is spent below ? People who have, don't need to pay huge sums of money for advice from someone who hasn't. Many experienced cruisers know far more about what their personall needs for an interior are than some designers ever possibly could. Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnebago. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > A great hull needs a great interior to be a great boat. > > > > Most cruisers know that a boat is only as good as its weakest part. A great > hull and a garbage interior does not make a good cruising boat. Sure, you > can live in a dumpster if you want. They are about as low cost as you can > get. No rent to pay. Free food and clothing delivered regularly. It makes > a convenient excuse. > > > > Most cruisers at best sail 10% of the time. The rest of the time they are > at anchor/dock. A good fraction of that time is spent below. Typically way > more than 50%. A such, it make sense to have a great interior as well as a > great hull, because you typically spend much more time below than you do > sailing. > > > > Undervaluing interiors shows a lack of understanding of what really matters. > A boat where all parts, interior and exterior are in harmony. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , > people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A > client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , > before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because > when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of > good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as well > as he had imagined. > On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big > piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of > them. > Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and > prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor > handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? > Buy a Winnabago! > Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, > because it is > > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- > aboard > > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set > of plans > > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting > patterns. > > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for > a 65 > > footer? > > > > > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. > One thing > > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor > when it > > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more > comlicated > > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at > all it is > > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Doug > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife > and > > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > > than we first imagined. > > > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use > 3/8 > > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > > the grid right now). > > > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > > > Thanks > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12968|12968|2007-04-03 05:51:34|Kevin Curry|poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|>...A great hull needs a great >interior to be a great boat.... > >...A great hull and a garbage >interior does not make a >good cruising boat...... > >...Undervaluing interiors shows >a lack of understanding of >what really matters.... The technical layout for efficient use of the boat-handling gear is important, but for most fellows in most circumstances, the interior is the single most critical element. Here's why: if the interior isn't comfortable, the wife isn't going to be happy about the cost or the experience. If the wife isn't happy about the boating experience, the boat either goes or the husband will spend a lot of time sailing alone. In the latter case, a far bigger investment than ones boat is in danger of ending up on the rocks.... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather| 12969|12941|2007-04-03 05:52:26|sae140|Re: Moonflower of Moab|I think it's fair to say that twin-keeled boats have their origins in the UK, where substantial tides and lack of suitable deep-water moorings made their development 'a must'. Twin keels are a development from the flat bilge-plates which were fitted alongside a central shallow ballast keel, which can still be seen on boats such as the Eventides. I think it was around the 1960's when the Kingfishers, Westerleys and the Newbridge boats were seen sporting their twin keels, which very quickly evolved into having aerofoil inner surfaces and a small amount of toe-in. Although I don't have any data to support this, I can't believe that the move towards this type of keel configuration - a feature which remained right up until the demise of those companies - wasn't considered the optimum possible configuration. Although rudders were moved, skegs added, modifications made to cabins and interiors and so on ... the keels themselves were never further modified. There must surely be some logic underpinning this ? Colin| 12970|12941|2007-04-03 09:56:21|khooper_fboats|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Bray claims that when heeled, the twin keels' camber creates downward lift in the windward keel, which increases righting moment and makes the boat stiffer. He's talking about camber here, where the keels are splayed out rather than vertical--not toe-in: "2. The twin keels become more effective with increased angle of heel, while a single keel becomes less effective. Because twin keels cant outward at the tip, the leeward keel becomes more vertical and deeper in the water as the boat heels. The windward keel is working more horizontally creating downward lift that increases righting moment giving more power to carry sail. Also with this cant outward from the vertical, leeway forces water up to the root of the fin as opposed to spilling over the tip in a single keel. Hydrodynamic tests have shown that decreasing end tip loss can double the effectiveness of a fin (the sole purpose of keel winglets)." I would think that moderate toe-in would tend to increase this effect by creating more downward lift in the leeward keel, but I dunno much about fluids except that they often behave in a counter-intuitive way. =^). Does that make any sense though? Ken| 12971|12941|2007-04-03 11:14:14|Michael Casling|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Yes in general I agree with you. There in a lot of good info on the subject doing a google search, too much for me to repeat here. There was much favourable talk about the motion associated with twin keels. I agree with Brent's view that the keels appear to be toed in when you look at them from either the front or the rear. A tape measure is required. There is limited moorage in Seahouses in the North East, and that is where I saw a Westerly quite happy sitting on its twin keels. There are also a few of the smaller boats in the area with the centre fin and the bilge keels. Seemed to me that the centre fin would not be required, but they may have altered an existing design by adding the bilge keels. The go fast off shore boats are using a form of bige keels but they are not ballasted, so they get called dagger boards. There has probably been a lot of research done on them that is applicable for a twin keeled boat. We may have to wait a while for that info to trickle down tho. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > I think it's fair to say that twin-keeled boats have their origins in > the UK, where substantial tides and lack of suitable deep-water > moorings made their development 'a must'. Twin keels are a > development from the flat bilge-plates which were fitted alongside a > central shallow ballast keel, which can still be seen on boats such as > the Eventides. > > I think it was around the 1960's when the Kingfishers, Westerleys and > the Newbridge boats were seen sporting their twin keels, which very > quickly evolved into having aerofoil inner surfaces and a small amount > of toe-in. Although I don't have any data to support this, I can't > believe that the move towards this type of keel configuration - a > feature which remained right up until the demise of those companies - > wasn't considered the optimum possible configuration. Although rudders > were moved, skegs added, modifications made to cabins and interiors > and so on ... the keels themselves were never further modified. > There must surely be some logic underpinning this ? > > Colin > | 12972|12968|2007-04-03 14:32:00|brentswain38|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|Simple solution, get the wife involved in the interior design, . Don't leave it to a stranger to impose on her. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry wrote: > > >...A great hull needs a great > >interior to be a great boat.... > > > >...A great hull and a garbage > >interior does not make a > >good cruising boat...... > > > >...Undervaluing interiors shows > >a lack of understanding of > >what really matters.... > > The technical layout for efficient use of the > boat-handling gear is important, but for most fellows > in most circumstances, the interior is the single most > critical element. Here's why: if the interior isn't > comfortable, the wife isn't going to be happy about > the cost or the experience. If the wife isn't happy > about the boating experience, the boat either goes or > the husband will spend a lot of time sailing alone. In > the latter case, a far bigger investment than ones > boat is in danger of ending up on the rocks.... > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > | 12973|12941|2007-04-03 14:45:23|brentswain38|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Keep in mind that when you are heeled enogh to have downward lift. the windward keel is prety close to a choppy surface, so any downward lift , if it exists at all may be negligible. I made once made keels that way, went to symetrical and there was no noticeable difference. Magic Dragon had asymetrical keels , toed in, and the drag was extreme. They converted to symetrical parallel keels and the improvement was huge. Part of the reputation for poor performance of twin keels was due to badly designed keels. Vertical keels not only throw away the advantage of the leeward keel being vertical when the boat is heeled, but drastically increases the interaction between the keels . Having the leeward keel upright when the boat is heeled 25 degrees increases it's lift by 100% , allowing it to be half the wetted surface of each single keel. Thus there is no reason for a twin keeler to have any more total wetted surface than a single keel, yet I have seen twin keelers designed with two keels, each being the same size as a single keel, both vertical.Properly designed twin keelers have far less wetted surface than a full length keel, yet I have seen owners of boats with full length keels criticise twin keelers for having too much wetted surface. Twin keelers roll far less than any single keeler. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "khooper_fboats" wrote: > > > Bray claims that when heeled, the twin keels' camber creates downward > lift in the windward keel, which increases righting moment and makes > the boat stiffer. He's talking about camber here, where the keels are > splayed out rather than vertical--not toe-in: > > "2. The twin keels become more effective with increased angle of heel, > while a single keel becomes less effective. Because twin keels cant > outward at the tip, the leeward keel becomes more vertical and deeper > in the water as the boat heels. The windward keel is working more > horizontally creating downward lift that increases righting moment > giving more power to carry sail. Also with this cant outward from the > vertical, leeway forces water up to the root of the fin as opposed to > spilling over the tip in a single keel. Hydrodynamic tests have shown > that decreasing end tip loss can double the effectiveness of a fin > (the sole purpose of keel winglets)." > > I would think that moderate toe-in would tend to increase this effect > by creating more downward lift in the leeward keel, but I dunno much > about fluids except that they often behave in a counter-intuitive way. > =^). Does that make any sense though? > > Ken > | 12974|12939|2007-04-03 14:50:13|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Was Lazy Bones your first cruising boat and the only boat that you had any experience living aboard? Drawings giving the dimensions of all the big interior parts definitly speeds up interior building, if you can get the owners to use them. I can rough all the big plywood parts in an interior in , in a couple of days, so any time saved doesn't amount to much. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Probably a lot more than you have spent in the tropics, where most of the > cruising is done, but I'm not talking about building "my" interiors. Rather > how to build interiors faster and better, to save time and money and end up > with a better product. > > > > As you say. Want a garbage interior, buy a dumpster. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:19 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > > Greg > How many different interiors have you lived in over a period of > time, in cold lattitudes ,where far more time is spent below ? > People who have, don't need to pay huge sums of money for advice > from someone who hasn't. > Many experienced cruisers know far more about what their personall > needs for an interior are than some designers ever possibly could. > Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnebago. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > A great hull needs a great interior to be a great boat. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers know that a boat is only as good as its weakest > part. A great > > hull and a garbage interior does not make a good cruising boat. > Sure, you > > can live in a dumpster if you want. They are about as low cost as > you can > > get. No rent to pay. Free food and clothing delivered > regularly. It makes > > a convenient excuse. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers at best sail 10% of the time. The rest of the time > they are > > at anchor/dock. A good fraction of that time is spent below. > Typically way > > more than 50%. A such, it make sense to have a great interior as > well as a > > great hull, because you typically spend much more time below than > you do > > sailing. > > > > > > > > Undervaluing interiors shows a lack of understanding of what > really matters. > > A boat where all parts, interior and exterior are in harmony. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for > a 65 > > footer? > > > > > > > > I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , > > people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A > > client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , > > before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because > > when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of > > good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as > well > > as he had imagined. > > On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big > > piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of > > them. > > Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and > > prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor > > handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? > > Buy a Winnabago! > > Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > , wrote: > > > > > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, > > because it is > > > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- > > aboard > > > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set > > of plans > > > for the interior, showing all the major components and the > cutting > > patterns. > > > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > > > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom > fitting. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > ] On > > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans > for > > a 65 > > > footer? > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out > > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > > > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in > aluminum. > > One thing > > > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty > poor > > when it > > > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more > > comlicated > > > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much > at > > all it is > > > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Doug > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a > 65 > > footer? > > > > > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the > wife > > and > > > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a > boat > > > than we first imagined. > > > > > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > > > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use > > 3/8 > > > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > > > > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. > Does > > > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is > off > > > the grid right now). > > > > > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet > layouts? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12975|12968|2007-04-03 15:22:32|brentswain38|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|An expensive interior will keep you off the rocks? Man what an abysmally dense statement. I've heard of surveyors going aboard a boat and going directly into check out the interior , while ignoring the rig, sails, deck equipment and ground tackle, in effect everything that actually will keep you off the rocks. Concentrating too much money and attention on the interior, which has absolutely nothing to do with keeping you off the rocks , will increase the liklihood of your going on the rocks, both physically and financially. Having spent roughly $50 on my interior, after many Pacific crossings and 23 years of full time cruising, I'm completely happy with it and wouldn't do much different.Had I spent $6,000 to hire a con guy with little knowledge of what my needs are, to draw pretty pictures of one , I'd have a lot of regrets for having been so foolish and gullible as to give up the cruising and experience gathering that money could have been spent on. That much money could buy two years of cruising the South Pacific and I'm sure the experience would be far more valuable that any interior.Isn't that what boats are for? Marinas are full of boats that never leave because the owners ran themselves into debt funding the style over substance priorities , like fancy interiors, havig been conned into sponsering other peoples expectations and vanities. Go back and re-read the part of my book which advocates judging the value of advice by taking a critical look at what it has done for the advisor. If they never have the time or money to cruise anywhere, and you want to end up in the same position , then theirs is the way to go. If you actually want to cruise, rather than spend your lifetime tied to the dock, while going to work to pay for style over substance things that don't really matter,or for someone elses vanities, then take the opposite tack. I think much of this advocating of the expensive route stems from a desire among the rich to force the proletariat off the cruising grounds, and as much as possible make cruising the exclusive domain of the rich. It's a con game to convince the poor that they have to have far more money than is really needed before they can go cruising. Being a socialist, I prefer the company of the proletariat on the cruising grounds. I can make all the money I need without ripping people off so much as to kill their cruising dreams. Having done so would take the fun out of being out cruising, unless you are a phsychotic , devoid of conscience. The wife insists ? Perhaps this is an example of the reason married guys do only brief cruises, for a year or two and are usually so old before they get out cruising.Then they sell their boats , buy houses ,and get back on the treadmill for the rest of their lives. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > Simple solution, get the wife involved in the interior design, . > Don't leave it to a stranger to impose on her. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry > wrote: > > > > >...A great hull needs a great > > >interior to be a great boat.... > > > > > >...A great hull and a garbage > > >interior does not make a > > >good cruising boat...... > > > > > >...Undervaluing interiors shows > > >a lack of understanding of > > >what really matters.... > > > > The technical layout for efficient use of the > > boat-handling gear is important, but for most fellows > > in most circumstances, the interior is the single most > > critical element. Here's why: if the interior isn't > > comfortable, the wife isn't going to be happy about > > the cost or the experience. If the wife isn't happy > > about the boating experience, the boat either goes or > > the husband will spend a lot of time sailing alone. In > > the latter case, a far bigger investment than ones > > boat is in danger of ending up on the rocks.... > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > > > | 12976|12939|2007-04-03 15:51:35|Cy Cy|Re: Tank tested?|In understand but the problem is that this is known as self-selection: People who went through the hassle of building/buying their own boat are too emotionally committed to criticize the design of their own boat. Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... --- "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Yes, Brent's boats have all been tank tested. In the > the big tank, the > only one that counts, the one that you sail in. > - > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > Cy Cy wrote: > > Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge > keels > > have a lot of potential to go really wrong if not > > designed right. Any broaching or self-righting > issues? > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Never miss an email again! > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail > arrives. > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > - > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html| 12977|12939|2007-04-03 16:26:36|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Tank tested?|Cy, You are getting independent info, I do not own a Brent Swain designed boat. My own boat is a very traditional long keel, heavy displacement double ender. She is slow, sea-worthy and about as comfortable a boat as you can get for her length (32ft). I have (and am during her major overhaul) incorporating some of Brent's ideas in her, because based on my own experience (I have been living aboard and sailing continuously since 1991) they make sense and are often very practical and logical ways of doing things. However, if you will read through the archives in this group and search the Internet, you will soon see what these boats have done and be able to form your own opinion of there abilities. At the price that Brent sells his plan's you do not expect to get tank test data, however anyone with the money to through away, is (I am sure) more than welcome to build models and do their own tank testing. whether they will know how to interpret the results is another story. The point that I am trying to make is that Brent Swains boats do have a track record and many of their voyages are documented. They have (and are being) proven on the oceans of the world every day and so far they are coming out well. At the end of the day, that is what counts, the rest is all theory. Cy Cy wrote: > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > > --- "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > >> Yes, Brent's boats have all been tank tested. In the >> the big tank, the >> only one that counts, the one that you sail in. >> - >> Regards, >> >> Paul J. Thompson >> IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. >> (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) >> >> >> Cy Cy wrote: >>> Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge >> keels >>> have a lot of potential to go really wrong if not >>> designed right. Any broaching or self-righting >> issues? >>> >>> >>> > ____________________________________________________________________________________ >>> Never miss an email again! >>> Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail >> arrives. >> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ >>> >>> To Post a message, send it to: >> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> - >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 12978|12939|2007-04-03 17:10:14|Cy Cy|Re: Tank tested?|Thanks. Its nothing personal Brent, just doing my necessary research. What do you think about the claim that bilge keel boats more likely to roll over with a breaking wave abeam? --- "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Cy, > > You are getting independent info, I do not own a > Brent Swain designed > boat. My own boat is a very traditional long keel, > heavy displacement > double ender. She is slow, sea-worthy and about as > comfortable a boat as > you can get for her length (32ft). I have (and am > during her major > overhaul) incorporating some of Brent's ideas in > her, because based on > my own experience (I have been living aboard and > sailing continuously > since 1991) they make sense and are often very > practical and logical > ways of doing things. > > However, if you will read through the archives in > this group and search > the Internet, you will soon see what these boats > have done and be able > to form your own opinion of there abilities. > > At the price that Brent sells his plan's you do not > expect to get tank > test data, however anyone with the money to through > away, is (I am sure) > more than welcome to build models and do their own > tank testing. whether > they will know how to interpret the results is > another story. > > The point that I am trying to make is that Brent > Swains boats do have a > track record and many of their voyages are > documented. They have (and > are being) proven on the oceans of the world every > day and so far they > are coming out well. At the end of the day, that is > what counts, the > rest is all theory. > > > Cy Cy wrote: > > In understand but the problem is that this is > known as > > self-selection: People who went through the hassle > of > > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > > committed to criticize the design of their own > boat. > > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent > info... > > > > > > --- "Paul J. Thompson" > > wrote: > > > >> Yes, Brent's boats have all been tank tested. In > the > >> the big tank, the > >> only one that counts, the one that you sail in. > >> - > >> Regards, > >> > >> Paul J. Thompson > >> IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > >> (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only > please) > >> > >> > >> Cy Cy wrote: > >>> Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge > >> keels > >>> have a lot of potential to go really wrong if > not > >>> designed right. Any broaching or self-righting > >> issues? > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > >>> Never miss an email again! > >>> Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail > >> arrives. > >> > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > >>> > >>> To Post a message, send it to: > >> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> - > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Expecting? Get great news right away with email > Auto-Check. > > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards, > > Paul J. Thompson > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121| 12979|12979|2007-04-03 19:14:02|Paul J. Thompson|Some info on twin keels|Those who are interested in twin keels might find this link of interest: http://www.kastenmarine.com/roll_attenuation.htm -- Regards, Paul J. Thompson IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please)| 12980|12939|2007-04-03 20:10:24|Michael Casling|Re: Tank tested?|I know this is not addressed at me, and there are others who have sailed further than me. But, after a careful read of Marchaj and his tank testing, I came to the opinion that tank testing is not as important as real wave testing. It may be useful for designing breakwaters and such, but from looking at the photos of tank generated waves, well they do not look real to me. And there is a problem with scaling size. All boats have a problem with beam on waves, larger size offers more stability, but big ships can have problems with beam on waves. Witness the oil tanker that ended up on the beach in Brittany. So for me, I am more interested in down wind and upwind performance, which means sailing and steering ability. Ultimate stability can be calculated and has been accepted by many design rules. The wealth of IMS measurements has helped with this. There comes a time when it is not possible to handle some waves beam on, and it affects all boats. There is much info on the subject regarding twin keels doing a search with google. The answer to your question is there, but it is a good idea to ask Brent as well. I do not own a twin keel boat, but I agree that they have many good points. The googled articles discuss this at length. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Thanks. Its nothing personal Brent, just doing my > necessary research. > > What do you think about the claim that bilge keel > boats more likely to roll over with a breaking wave > abeam? | 12981|12939|2007-04-03 20:22:14|Michael Casling|Re: Tank tested?|Yes, that is explained in Economics 101. But not all of us afraid to criticise our own boats. All these boats have good and bad points, it is always a compromise. We have love hate relationships with our boats. In my size boat, 28 feet, I will quickly point to two others that I believe have a better combination of under water shape and foils. But I bought mine before the others were available, and mine is more solidly constructed. I am in Brents camp with regard to getting out there. I bought my boat new in 1979 and have been sailing it ever since. Cost $28,000- which included many sails and a lot of gear. Today it owes me nothing, partly because I sold it for more than I paid for it ( during the hate phase ) and then repurchased it for half of what I sold it for. Sold some technology stocks while they were high. Even if I had the urge to build a boat, I would still buy a small boat to sail on to gain experience, and I would sail on other boats as well. I still do this, both. Michael --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... | 12982|12968|2007-04-03 20:57:23|Mike|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|All, I would hope that we could agree that all aspects of a boat are important, from how the shell is constructed to the interior layout, how it is rigged, etc.. When a boat is well-constructed for the function which it serves, few but the builder truly appreciate it's seakeeping abilities at times when not facing the need for a "great" boat to get through a specific challenge. Of the boat that I have owned and/or sailed, two remain in my mind as the "best of the bunch", though neither had interiors which truly satisfied me. Therefore, I'd have to say that both Brent and Greg have very valid points. I have never come through a bad passage to find that the cabin sole wasn't littered with food, equipment, bedding, and more (chalk it up to inadequate storage). In the height of a rough crossing, the ability to sleep comfortably and access nourishment is extremely important to survival. Still, if the boat isn't structurally sound and capable, the interior is at best a sick room, at worst a tomb. I have, and will continue to develop an interior design which I feel combines safety with comfort. Though I will ask the designer's opinion of my planned layout, ultimately, it will be an interior of my own creation. Example; I have a preference for wide, unencumbered companionways & berths, neither very suitable for blue water sailing. Still, with strategic handholds - some removable, some permanent - and a double berth which can be converted to something similar to pipe berths, some of my dilemna is solved. I couldn't expect Brent, Greg, or any other designer to design interiors on a custom basis, unless I was willing to fork over significant "pesos" for the drafting(draughting) & consultations involved. Certainly, if I plan to add, move or remove items of significant mass, I must expect a correlation in how the boat's trim is effected. If I am not cognizant of how each alteration will change the seakeeping ability of the boat or the comfort level of it's crew/passengers, I should have the intelligence to source the answers or I should follow the stock interior plan offered by the designer or I should not be at sea to begin with. In recent correspondence with Brent, he has been good enough to offer his advice on my proposed changes to his stock design of the 40 footer. As he has so much practical experience with his own designs, I'd be a fool not to give serious thought to his comments, even if I have a strong desire to make these changes. Like all things in life, successful construction of a "great" boat requires, above all, commonsense. As for tank testing, while it has a value, it isn't reality. Mike PS: To hell with the wife, it's My money, MY boat!(lol) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry wrote: > > >...A great hull needs a great > >interior to be a great boat.... > > > >...A great hull and a garbage > >interior does not make a > >good cruising boat...... > > > >...Undervaluing interiors shows > >a lack of understanding of > >what really matters.... > > The technical layout for efficient use of the > boat-handling gear is important, but for most fellows > in most circumstances, the interior is the single most > critical element. Here's why: if the interior isn't > comfortable, the wife isn't going to be happy about > the cost or the experience. If the wife isn't happy > about the boating experience, the boat either goes or > the husband will spend a lot of time sailing alone. In > the latter case, a far bigger investment than ones > boat is in danger of ending up on the rocks.... > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > | 12983|12939|2007-04-03 21:23:29|Mike|Re: Tank tested?|Not so. I, for one would offer a critique of every boat I've owned and/or have sailed, the bad with the good. In fact, I have joined with others in doing such, in another group. When I have had sufficient experience with the Swain design which I plan to build, only Alex will be able to shut me up.(lol) However, if you feel that those members of this group whom have built & sailed one of Brent's designs(or that of Greg's, or any other similar design) would feel too intimidated to speak honestly & openly about any dissatisfaction, you can easily send them an e-mail and keep the discussion discrete, ergo, off of this message board. In buying Brent's plans and building to his design, I do not believe that I am selling him control of my soul, and I do not think that Alex is the kind of guy who would mute my thoughts, unless I was unduly insulting. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > > --- "Paul J. Thompson" > wrote: > > > Yes, Brent's boats have all been tank tested. In the > > the big tank, the > > only one that counts, the one that you sail in. > > - > > Regards, > > > > Paul J. Thompson > > IT Manager - Henry Brooks Co. Ltd. > > (W)09 913 3110 (Mob)021 260 8249 (txt only please) > > > > > > Cy Cy wrote: > > > Have these origami boats been tank tested? Bilge > > keels > > > have a lot of potential to go really wrong if not > > > designed right. Any broaching or self-righting > > issues? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > > > Never miss an email again! > > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail > > arrives. > > > > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > | 12984|12939|2007-04-04 05:50:19|edward_stoneuk|Re: Tank tested?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Thanks. Its nothing personal Brent, just doing my > necessary research. > > What do you think about the claim that bilge keel > boats more likely to roll over with a breaking wave > abeam? Marchaj in his very good book, whose name escapes me, discusses the propensity of boats to to roll over in beam on breaking waves. From memory it decreases as boats get larger. So, given that information, one could say that going blue water in anything smaller then, say a vessel the size of the Titanic is extremely foolhardy. From experience I would say that a single fin keel boat is more liable to fall over when the tide goes out than a twin keeler. I can understand the concept that a single fin keeler is more liable to trip than a long but shallow keel boat such as a Gazelle or Greg's Lazy Bones, and also that a twin keeler is more liable to trip than a single fin keeler of similar dimensions, but would think given the chaotic conditions of a sea with breaking waves and the impossibility to anticipate the size and breakingness of the waves that difference is much of a muchness; similar to Victorian theologicans arguing how many Angels can dance on a pinhead. That said I drive a Saab, one because it is a good automobile but I also take comfort from the fact that it has been shown in tests to protect its occupants better than most other automobiles. My wife and I are building one of Brent's twin keel designs because it doesn't fall over when the tide goes out. Regards, Ted PS I am in Christchurch NZ for the next three weeks or so. If ther are any origamibuilders around please get in touch.| 12985|12941|2007-04-04 06:24:42|sae140|Re: Moonflower of Moab|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > Yes in general I agree with you. > There in a lot of good info on the subject doing a google search, too > much for me to repeat here. There was much favourable talk about the > motion associated with twin keels. > I agree with Brent's view that the keels appear to be toed in when > you look at them from either the front or the rear. A tape measure is > required. There is limited moorage in Seahouses in the North East, > and that is where I saw a Westerly quite happy sitting on its twin > keels. There are also a few of the smaller boats in the area with the > centre fin and the bilge keels. Seemed to me that the centre fin > would not be required, but they may have altered an existing design > by adding the bilge keels. > The go fast off shore boats are using a form of bige keels but they > are not ballasted, so they get called dagger boards. There has > probably been a lot of research done on them that is applicable for a > twin keeled boat. We may have to wait a while for that info to > trickle down tho. > > > Michael > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > I think it's fair to say that twin-keeled boats have their origins > in > > the UK, where substantial tides and lack of suitable deep-water > > moorings made their development 'a must'. Twin keels are a > > development from the flat bilge-plates which were fitted alongside a > > central shallow ballast keel, which can still be seen on boats such > as > > the Eventides. > > > > I think it was around the 1960's when the Kingfishers, Westerleys > and > > the Newbridge boats were seen sporting their twin keels, which very > > quickly evolved into having aerofoil inner surfaces and a small > amount > > of toe-in. Although I don't have any data to support this, I can't > > believe that the move towards this type of keel configuration - a > > feature which remained right up until the demise of those > companies - > > wasn't considered the optimum possible configuration. Although > rudders > > were moved, skegs added, modifications made to cabins and interiors > > and so on ... the keels themselves were never further modified. > > There must surely be some logic underpinning this ? > > > > Colin > > > I've just run a tape over the Kingfisher and Newbridge Coromandel/ Corribee (both 21 ft boats), and the keels figures are almost identical. The twin keels are splayed out from the vertical by 15 degrees, with approx 1" of toe-in measured between 'em at the tips - which equates to approx 0.6 degree of toe-in per keel - a very small amount. Colin| 12986|12939|2007-04-04 11:11:03|Cy Cy|Construction site|Where do you folks build these boats anyway? I am an NYC apartment dweller. It would be cheaper and easier for me to have the hull built for me, of course it would be more fun and interesting to do it myself. I've seen photos of people building boats on their driveways etc but I think the neighbors and local authorities would have issues. How on earth do you manage to the sandblasting, leading the keels, etc? Not to mention transportation to the marina for launch . . . ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather| 12987|12939|2007-04-04 15:48:54|brentswain38|Re: Tank tested?|While the canting outboard of twin keels increases their tripping action , this is offset by their reduced area per keel, and the fact that the lateral resistance is closer to the surface, where surface water moves foreward down the face of a wave as opposed to deeper water which is going the opposite direction. Which is the greater factor is anybody's guess. I feel safe in my twin keeler .A drogue off the stern quarter in a serious gale makes this question irrellevant. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > > > Thanks. Its nothing personal Brent, just doing my > > necessary research. > > > > What do you think about the claim that bilge keel > > boats more likely to roll over with a breaking wave > > abeam? > > > Marchaj in his very good book, whose name escapes me, discusses the > propensity of boats to to roll over in beam on breaking waves. From > memory it decreases as boats get larger. So, given that information, > one could say that going blue water in anything smaller then, say a > vessel the size of the Titanic is extremely foolhardy. From > experience I would say that a single fin keel boat is more liable to > fall over when the tide goes out than a twin keeler. I can > understand the concept that a single fin keeler is more liable to > trip than a long but shallow keel boat such as a Gazelle or Greg's > Lazy Bones, and also that a twin keeler is more liable to trip than a > single fin keeler of similar dimensions, but would think given the > chaotic conditions of a sea with breaking waves and the impossibility > to anticipate the size and breakingness of the waves that difference > is much of a muchness; similar to Victorian theologicans arguing how > many Angels can dance on a pinhead. That said I drive a Saab, one > because it is a good automobile but I also take comfort from the fact > that it has been shown in tests to protect its occupants better than > most other automobiles. My wife and I are building one of Brent's > twin keel designs because it doesn't fall over when the tide goes out. > Regards, > Ted > PS I am in Christchurch NZ for the next three weeks or so. If ther > are any origamibuilders around please get in touch. > | 12988|12941|2007-04-04 15:49:18|brentswain38|Re: Moonflower of Moab|Twin keels can be very efficient , triple keels are almost always slow. Too much interaction between them. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" > wrote: > > > > Yes in general I agree with you. > > There in a lot of good info on the subject doing a google search, too > > much for me to repeat here. There was much favourable talk about the > > motion associated with twin keels. > > I agree with Brent's view that the keels appear to be toed in when > > you look at them from either the front or the rear. A tape measure is > > required. There is limited moorage in Seahouses in the North East, > > and that is where I saw a Westerly quite happy sitting on its twin > > keels. There are also a few of the smaller boats in the area with the > > centre fin and the bilge keels. Seemed to me that the centre fin > > would not be required, but they may have altered an existing design > > by adding the bilge keels. > > The go fast off shore boats are using a form of bige keels but they > > are not ballasted, so they get called dagger boards. There has > > probably been a lot of research done on them that is applicable for a > > twin keeled boat. We may have to wait a while for that info to > > trickle down tho. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think it's fair to say that twin-keeled boats have their origins > > in > > > the UK, where substantial tides and lack of suitable deep-water > > > moorings made their development 'a must'. Twin keels are a > > > development from the flat bilge-plates which were fitted alongside a > > > central shallow ballast keel, which can still be seen on boats such > > as > > > the Eventides. > > > > > > I think it was around the 1960's when the Kingfishers, Westerleys > > and > > > the Newbridge boats were seen sporting their twin keels, which very > > > quickly evolved into having aerofoil inner surfaces and a small > > amount > > > of toe-in. Although I don't have any data to support this, I can't > > > believe that the move towards this type of keel configuration - a > > > feature which remained right up until the demise of those > > companies - > > > wasn't considered the optimum possible configuration. Although > > rudders > > > were moved, skegs added, modifications made to cabins and interiors > > > and so on ... the keels themselves were never further modified. > > > There must surely be some logic underpinning this ? > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > I've just run a tape over the Kingfisher and Newbridge Coromandel/ > Corribee (both 21 ft boats), and the keels figures are almost identical. > > The twin keels are splayed out from the vertical by 15 degrees, with > approx 1" of toe-in measured between 'em at the tips - which equates > to approx 0.6 degree of toe-in per keel - a very small amount. > > Colin > | 12989|6644|2007-04-04 15:57:12|Ulrich G. Kliegis|design software|Hi all, just entered this list a few days ago. A question to the designers here: Do you use custom-written software or do you use some or the various off-the- shelve boat / ship design programs? Cheers, U.| 12990|12939|2007-04-04 15:57:14|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Tank tested?|Like the young guy that builds a hot-rod. To him it is the best car in the world. Uncomfortable ride, terrible mileage, can't corner worth a damn, breaks down all the time, but still the best car in the world. You can talk until you are blue in the face, pointing out the problems, how things can be improved. He will argue and argue that none of the problems you point out are problems. You are mistaken. It is a terrific ride. He gets great mileage downhill. He passes Porsche's and BMS's all the time. They are so slow they can barely exceed the speed limit. He hasn't broken down all week and if he does, this will make the car even more reliable in future. It is the best car in the world. It is a sub-conscious effect. People honestly think they are giving a balanced evaluation and are not aware of the bias. It is below the level of consciousness. The more you have invested in anything, the stronger the effect. Greg --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , Cy Cy wrote: > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12991|12968|2007-04-04 15:57:32|brentswain38|Re: poor interior layout will put you on the rocks|For years I never bothered with interior drawings , prefering to let the owners draw up what they wanted, then sitting down and discussing the pros and cons , of what they had drawn, and suggesting improvements. I drew up interiors when the demand for a sample became greater and plans started to travel far and wide, and to give an example of what could reasonably be expected to fit. The layouts I've given have been proven and often returned to over the years , but I've seen major variations which were both very good and practical.How good and practical had nothing to do with spending a lot of money and had everything to do with how things were arranged. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > All, > I would hope that we could agree that all aspects of a boat are > important, from how the shell is constructed to the interior layout, > how it is rigged, etc.. When a boat is well-constructed for the > function which it serves, few but the builder truly appreciate it's > seakeeping abilities at times when not facing the need for a "great" > boat to get through a specific challenge. Of the boat that I have > owned and/or sailed, two remain in my mind as the "best of the > bunch", though neither had interiors which truly satisfied me. > Therefore, I'd have to say that both Brent and Greg have very valid > points. I have never come through a bad passage to find that the > cabin sole wasn't littered with food, equipment, bedding, and more > (chalk it up to inadequate storage). In the height of a rough > crossing, the ability to sleep comfortably and access nourishment is > extremely important to survival. Still, if the boat isn't > structurally sound and capable, the interior is at best a sick room, > at worst a tomb. I have, and will continue to develop an interior > design which I feel combines safety with comfort. Though I will ask > the designer's opinion of my planned layout, ultimately, it will be > an interior of my own creation. > > Example; I have a preference for wide, unencumbered companionways & > berths, neither very suitable for blue water sailing. Still, with > strategic handholds - some removable, some permanent - and a double > berth which can be converted to something similar to pipe berths, > some of my dilemna is solved. I couldn't expect Brent, Greg, or any > other designer to design interiors on a custom basis, unless I was > willing to fork over significant "pesos" for the drafting (draughting) > & consultations involved. Certainly, if I plan to add, move or remove > items of significant mass, I must expect a correlation in how the > boat's trim is effected. If I am not cognizant of how each alteration > will change the seakeeping ability of the boat or the comfort level > of it's crew/passengers, I should have the intelligence to source the > answers or I should follow the stock interior plan offered by the > designer or I should not be at sea to begin with. > > In recent correspondence with Brent, he has been good enough to offer > his advice on my proposed changes to his stock design of the 40 > footer. As he has so much practical experience with his own designs, > I'd be a fool not to give serious thought to his comments, even if I > have a strong desire to make these changes. Like all things in life, > successful construction of a "great" boat requires, above all, > commonsense. > > As for tank testing, while it has a value, it isn't reality. > > Mike > > PS: To hell with the wife, it's My money, MY boat!(lol) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Curry > wrote: > > > > >...A great hull needs a great > > >interior to be a great boat.... > > > > > >...A great hull and a garbage > > >interior does not make a > > >good cruising boat...... > > > > > >...Undervaluing interiors shows > > >a lack of understanding of > > >what really matters.... > > > > The technical layout for efficient use of the > > boat-handling gear is important, but for most fellows > > in most circumstances, the interior is the single most > > critical element. Here's why: if the interior isn't > > comfortable, the wife isn't going to be happy about > > the cost or the experience. If the wife isn't happy > > about the boating experience, the boat either goes or > > the husband will spend a lot of time sailing alone. In > > the latter case, a far bigger investment than ones > > boat is in danger of ending up on the rocks.... > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _ > ______________ > > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > > > | 12992|12939|2007-04-04 17:36:37|Carl Anderson|Re: Construction site|Yup. Its a daunting process. Not for everybody to build an oceangoing sailboat. I guess that it is a matter of organizing your life priorities if you are going to make it happen. That is what my wife & I have done. Carl (Moonflower of Moab) Cy Cy wrote: > Where do you folks build these boats anyway? > I am an NYC apartment dweller. It would be cheaper and > easier for me to have the hull built for me, of course > it would be more fun and interesting to do it myself. > I've seen photos of people building boats on their > driveways etc but I think the neighbors and local > authorities would have issues. How on earth do you > manage to the sandblasting, leading the keels, etc? > Not to mention transportation to the marina for launch > . . . > > __________________________________________________________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > > > | 12993|12939|2007-04-04 18:49:49|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|No, I've been boating all my life, starting about age 5, lots of different boats. 50 years. Power and sail, mono and cats. Cruising, racing, fishing, diving. Just about every weekend that I wasn't skiing. Over-nighting, extended passages, school vacations living aboard. 20 years in the tropics, left with the wife, came back 20 years later with the same wife and 2 teenage children. We are all still together. For most amateur builders, the interior is by far the hardest and most complex part of the project. It takes the most time and most often gives the worst result. The hull in comparison is dirt simple. For these builders, having interior patterns can be a huge help. It is not unusual at all for a first time builder to layout a piece of wood, cut it, fit it, only to find that they have cut it too small. This happens a few times and the $$ start to mount up. Once things are roughed in, heads, knees and elbows bump unexpectedly. Some things are a tad too close, some a tad too far. Some work for the husband, but not for the wife. Some work for the wife, but not the husband. Redesign, ripout, restart. Eventually the boat goes sailing (or is sold incomplete). First time in a serious seaway new lessons are learned. The features that looked so good when the boat was on the hard, or while it was at anchor. Suddenly they are proving a problem. Some are even dangerous. What now? Redesign, ripout, restart. All this takes time, takes $$, and puts a huge stress on the best of marriages. Start pouring money into a boat at the expense of the kids, see how long you last with the wife. That is why I'm so big on making the boat pay for itself. So long as the boat is seen as an expense, especially if it is not yet complete, it is a huge liability in any marriage. Greg From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brentswain38 Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer? Was Lazy Bones your first cruising boat and the only boat that you had any experience living aboard? Drawings giving the dimensions of all the big interior parts definitly speeds up interior building, if you can get the owners to use them. I can rough all the big plywood parts in an interior in , in a couple of days, so any time saved doesn't amount to much. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com , wrote: > > Probably a lot more than you have spent in the tropics, where most of the > cruising is done, but I'm not talking about building "my" interiors. Rather > how to build interiors faster and better, to save time and money and end up > with a better product. > > > > As you say. Want a garbage interior, buy a dumpster. > > > > Greg > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:19 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > > Greg > How many different interiors have you lived in over a period of > time, in cold lattitudes ,where far more time is spent below ? > People who have, don't need to pay huge sums of money for advice > from someone who hasn't. > Many experienced cruisers know far more about what their personall > needs for an interior are than some designers ever possibly could. > Want a Winnebago? Buy a Winnebago. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > A great hull needs a great interior to be a great boat. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers know that a boat is only as good as its weakest > part. A great > > hull and a garbage interior does not make a good cruising boat. > Sure, you > > can live in a dumpster if you want. They are about as low cost as > you can > > get. No rent to pay. Free food and clothing delivered > regularly. It makes > > a convenient excuse. > > > > > > > > Most cruisers at best sail 10% of the time. The rest of the time > they are > > at anchor/dock. A good fraction of that time is spent below. > Typically way > > more than 50%. A such, it make sense to have a great interior as > well as a > > great hull, because you typically spend much more time below than > you do > > sailing. > > > > > > > > Undervaluing interiors shows a lack of understanding of what > really matters. > > A boat where all parts, interior and exterior are in harmony. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of brentswain38 > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for > a 65 > > footer? > > > > > > > > I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , > > people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A > > client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , > > before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because > > when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of > > good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as > well > > as he had imagined. > > On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big > > piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of > > them. > > Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and > > prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor > > handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? > > Buy a Winnabago! > > Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > , wrote: > > > > > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, > > because it is > > > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- > > aboard > > > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set > > of plans > > > for the interior, showing all the major components and the > cutting > > patterns. > > > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > > > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom > fitting. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > ] On > > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans > for > > a 65 > > > footer? > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out > > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > > > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in > aluminum. > > One thing > > > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty > poor > > when it > > > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more > > comlicated > > > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much > at > > all it is > > > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Doug > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > 40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a > 65 > > footer? > > > > > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the > wife > > and > > > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a > boat > > > than we first imagined. > > > > > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > > > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use > > 3/8 > > > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > > > > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. > Does > > > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is > off > > > the grid right now). > > > > > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet > layouts? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 12994|12939|2007-04-04 18:50:47|brentswain38|Re: Construction site|Most people drive around and ask a farmer, or connect by word of mouth. Buying the plate wheelabraded and primed, then keeping it up with another coat of primer and touch up as you go ,eliminates the need for sandblasting. One owner did the steel work, ballasting and painting in a farmer's yard, then put it in his driveway for the quieter stuff, like interior, engine , etc. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Where do you folks build these boats anyway? > I am an NYC apartment dweller. It would be cheaper and > easier for me to have the hull built for me, of course > it would be more fun and interesting to do it myself. > I've seen photos of people building boats on their > driveways etc but I think the neighbors and local > authorities would have issues. How on earth do you > manage to the sandblasting, leading the keels, etc? > Not to mention transportation to the marina for launch > . . . > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > | 12995|12939|2007-04-04 18:50:49|brentswain38|Re: Tank tested?|The book is called "Seaworthiness, the forgotten factor", by Marchaj Its an excellent read. I've had extreme difficulty getting models of my boats to stay upside own , even in flat water. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Casling" wrote: > > I know this is not addressed at me, and there are others who have > sailed further than me. > But, after a careful read of Marchaj and his tank testing, I came to > the opinion that tank testing is not as important as real wave testing. > It may be useful for designing breakwaters and such, but from looking > at the photos of tank generated waves, well they do not look real to me. > And there is a problem with scaling size. > All boats have a problem with beam on waves, larger size offers more > stability, but big ships can have problems with beam on waves. Witness > the oil tanker that ended up on the beach in Brittany. > So for me, I am more interested in down wind and upwind performance, > which means sailing and steering ability. Ultimate stability can be > calculated and has been accepted by many design rules. The wealth of > IMS measurements has helped with this. > There comes a time when it is not possible to handle some waves beam > on, and it affects all boats. > There is much info on the subject regarding twin keels doing a search > with google. The answer to your question is there, but it is a good > idea to ask Brent as well. > I do not own a twin keel boat, but I agree that they have many good > points. The googled articles discuss this at length. > > Michael > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > > > Thanks. Its nothing personal Brent, just doing my > > necessary research. > > > > What do you think about the claim that bilge keel > > boats more likely to roll over with a breaking wave > > abeam? > | 12996|12939|2007-04-04 18:50:59|brentswain38|Re: Tank tested?|Right on again. This reminds me of Jack Carson, who sailed one of my 36 footers around the world. When a guy was singing the praises of wide assed ,lean bowed , asymetrical hulled boats, and criticising more moderate sterns, Jack said " Doesn't that make her very hard to handle downwind?"The guy said "I hate to sail downwind. Nobody sais downwind if they can avoid it." Jack said "I love to sail downwind in my boat. It's my favorite point of sail." They guy was totally failing to connect the wide ass , lean bows of his boat with the extreme difficulty of controling her downwind, a type of blind denial of the obvious. This type of self delusion by stubborn people who form conclusions long before they gain any real experience , immune to the evidence to the contrary, is common amoung boat "Experts "and others . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Like the young guy that builds a hot-rod. To him it is the best car in the > world. Uncomfortable ride, terrible mileage, can't corner worth a damn, > breaks down all the time, but still the best car in the world. > > You can talk until you are blue in the face, pointing out the problems, how > things can be improved. He will argue and argue that none of the problems > you point out are problems. You are mistaken. It is a terrific ride. He > gets great mileage downhill. He passes Porsche's and BMS's all the time. > They are so slow they can barely exceed the speed limit. He hasn't broken > down all week and if he does, this will make the car even more reliable in > future. It is the best car in the world. > > It is a sub-conscious effect. People honestly think they are giving a > balanced evaluation and are not aware of the bias. It is below the level of > consciousness. The more you have invested in anything, the stronger the > effect. > > Greg > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Cy Cy wrote: > > > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12997|12939|2007-04-04 18:51:42|brentswain38|Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 footer?|Right on. I hung my interior off the bulkheads with 2X4s. I took my shapes of an existing sistership, a year before I built the hull. After foaming it took me two days to put it together. I left the inside ends long, to trim off after they were in. In the bare steel stage , in winter when it was to cold to paint, some owners have built their interiors. Doing it in the bare steel stage let them weld tabs on wherever they needed them. It also allowed proggress to continue thru the winter, making putting it all back together in spring a quick job.When painting weather arrived , they put the interior in pieces under the cockpit and painted the foreward sections, then put it all in the forepeak to paint the aft sections. Ditto for foaming. Some leave the sill off the front end of the cockpit to get bigger sheets in, then weld it in. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Dimensioning the interior doesn't work, because it is a complex 3D shape, > just like the hull. > > > > You can't build an origami hull knowing just the dimensions for the hull. > You need to know the patterns for the plate. The same with the interior. > You need to the interior patterns. Once you have the interior patterns you > can build the interior in origami, just like the exterior. > > > > How do you build the interior using origami? Build everything from plywood. > Cut it from patterns. Glue on "longitudinals" while the panels are flat to > stiffen the panels and for mounting panels to panels, and adding hatches, > fittings, etc. Number everything for rapid assembly. > > > > Instead of furring strips, install the furnishing "ends" to metal tabs set > on the longitudinals. These form bulkheads to stiffen the hull > athwartships. Assemble the major panels by gluing to these "ends". This > stiffens the "bulkheads", further increasing their strength. Glue in the > other panels along the "longitudinals", to form seats, drawers, hatches, > doors, tables, etc, etc. Power staple everything together to hold while the > glue dries. > > > > As much as possible, assemble panels into sub assemblies, before installing. > This makes it easier to access behind hidden parts - a major problem when > assembling interiors. If a sub-assembly will fit through the hatch, > consider if it can be built quicker outside, and brought into the boat on > the day it is to be installed. Common components like drawers can be built > quicker using an assembly line, rather than one by one as required. > > > > Mock-ups, cardboard templates, furring strips, framing the interior woodwork > piece by piece, custom fitting each part, brass screws - that is framed > construction in wood. The time consuming way of doing things we are trying > to eliminate. Pre-cut patterns, ply, glue, staples - rapid assembly - the > origami method for the interiors. > > > > This site is all about using origami to speed construction. If it takes a > couple of weeks to build the exterior, but years to build the interior, it > still takes years to build the boat. Where is the innovation? Switch to > origami for the interiors. Build the entire boat, inside and out in weeks. > > > > What is required? Rhino 3D or equivalent. Layout your hull and interiors > in 3-D. Check the clearances, check the sightlines, adjust until you are > happy, calculate your patterns. Lay them out on the ply. Minimum waste > (wood is expensive), minimum time. Voila, origami inside and out. > > > > Greg > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of brentswain38 > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:10 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > I've found that no matter how many interior drawings you give , > people just ignore them and design their interiors as they go. A > client did a mockup of his interior in cardboard and plywood , > before building the permanent one. He was sure glad he did because > when he was able to walk thru it, he was able tom see all kinds of > good ideas and see how other ideas he had wouldn't work out as well > as he had imagined. > On my first steel boat I had details and dimensions of every big > piece that went into her. Not a single client ever used any one of > them. > Overvalueing interiors shows a lack of understanding and > prioritising what really matters, the hull and decks, anchor > handling gear , self steering,and deck detail .Want a Winnebago? > Buy a Winnabago! > Most cruisers know exactly what they want for interior. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , wrote: > > > > The area most often overlooked in boat plans is the interior, > because it is > > the hardest to design. Hull plans are simple in comparison. > > > > > > > > By far the greatest time saving to be made in building a live- > aboard > > cruising boat to "completion" is to have a fully dimensioned set > of plans > > for the interior, showing all the major components and the cutting > patterns. > > In this way you can pre-cut the interior pieces and make use of > > sub-assemblies, to minimize errors, templating, and custom fitting. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > ] On > > Behalf Of Paul Wilson > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:22 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for > a 65 > > footer? > > > > > > > > I have no idea what the cost is but check out > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > > There are some nice looking designs of a larger size in aluminum. > One thing > > to consider is that resale value of a boat is usually pretty poor > when it > > comes from an unknown designer. Scaling a design up is much more > comlicated > > than people think. If a design is scaled/increased in size much at > all it is > > probably better to start again from scratch, in my opinion. > > > > Cheers, Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Doug > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > 40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:34:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Why should I pay $6000+ for plans for a 65 > footer? > > > > Now that we have watched Alex Christie and Brent's video the wife > and > > I are starting to think that there is a lot less to building a boat > > than we first imagined. > > > > So how many people just create their own plans? It seems like a > > fairly simple thing to scale the origami method to 60 ft and use > 3/8 > > inch 5000 series aluminum. Any Opinions? > > > > Brent sells plans for a 40 for $500 which looks like a bargin. Does > > anyone know if he has or will do plans for a 60? (I think he is off > > the grid right now). > > > > What is included in Brent plans. Is it just the hull sheet layouts? > > > > Thanks > > Doug & Kay Jackson > > Tulsa, Oklahoma > > www.submarineboat. com > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12998|12939|2007-04-04 18:52:33|brentswain38|Re: Tank tested?|Like the guy sitting in an open cockpit, or under a dodger, freezing his ass off while criticising wheelhouses and inside steering arrangements. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Like the young guy that builds a hot-rod. To him it is the best car in the > world. Uncomfortable ride, terrible mileage, can't corner worth a damn, > breaks down all the time, but still the best car in the world. > > You can talk until you are blue in the face, pointing out the problems, how > things can be improved. He will argue and argue that none of the problems > you point out are problems. You are mistaken. It is a terrific ride. He > gets great mileage downhill. He passes Porsche's and BMS's all the time. > They are so slow they can barely exceed the speed limit. He hasn't broken > down all week and if he does, this will make the car even more reliable in > future. It is the best car in the world. > > It is a sub-conscious effect. People honestly think they are giving a > balanced evaluation and are not aware of the bias. It is below the level of > consciousness. The more you have invested in anything, the stronger the > effect. > > Greg > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > , Cy Cy wrote: > > > > In understand but the problem is that this is known as > > self-selection: People who went through the hassle of > > building/buying their own boat are too emotionally > > committed to criticize the design of their own boat. > > Thus, I was hoping for some more independent info... > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > | 12999|12939|2007-04-04 19:48:45|peter_d_wiley|Re: Construction site|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Where do you folks build these boats anyway? I bought 3.5 acres of waterfront reserve land (back gate is 20m from the tideline). Built a house and biiiiig shed with 3 phase power etc. This year, if I don't spend too much time away at sea, I'll start on the next toy (boat). I like building stuff. PDW| 13000|12939|2007-04-04 20:01:53|Michael Casling|Re: Construction site|I am still part owner of five acres. We have sheep and blueberries. I erected four old power poles with a cross beam on the ends. They are fourteen feet apart on the long side, and eleven feet the other way. With straps and two chain hoists I can lift the 8000 pound boat off the trailer. A four foot length of eye beam under the keel with a floor jack under one end will also lift the boat. The eye beam has one foot on one side of the keel, and three feet of leverage. The farm is an excellent area to bash away at all manner of things. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: peter_d_wiley To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Construction site --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Cy Cy wrote: > > Where do you folks build these boats anyway? I bought 3.5 acres of waterfront reserve land (back gate is 20m from the tideline). Built a house and biiiiig shed with 3 phase power etc. This year, if I don't spend too much time away at sea, I'll start on the next toy (boat). I like building stuff. PDW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |